Then again, railpictures.net tends to have creative reasons for photo rejections.
I gave up contributing to them awhile back.....because I sent the very same photo that someone else did (two days AFTER mine....theirs got posted, mine didn't. But they were one of the cronies.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Who appointed this dick?
Can anyone get rid of him?
Lose the curse words.
Or at least be consistent. The second obscenity diametrically contradicted the first.
: )
Mark
What exactly did he do?
-Chris
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A19122-2004Jun30.html
Now I can see Mdlbigcat's point.
-Chris
This may sound too crazy, but WMATA could invest in some single-unit cars for situations like this, or maybe an A-B-A 3 car sets.
1. He has a great sense of musical taste.
2. He wears red lipstick!
3. He takes the F train.
I had to stick on #3 in order to make this post compliant with decorum. :)
No way. Buffalo Bob was OK; this guy's a dork.
That's way too far.
That could describe all of us!!!
You can't get rid of him as long as he has the governor's support.
Michael
Washington, DC
The G1 was a real waste of resources and did not need to be kept. The N11, N13, and SmartMover are cross river options that should have been retained. The B11 had potential to work out but it was set up to fail, unfortunately. The N7's story is well known and the route had been recieving only state funding for the past few years. WMATA cut funding for the route back in 2001 IIRC. I don't know much about the C18. Virginia's refusal to assist in funding the N11, N13, and SmartMover and DC's refusal to assist in funding the B11 contributed to the demise of those routes.
Uhh, that's interesting. I didn't know gonads and sexual parts of the human anatomy ran railroads. :-)
Or ruined them, for that matter... I knew they've brought many a railroad bathroom to grief (well, the male ones anyway).
: )
Your disapproval of him is uncalled for. While he may have Republican tendencies, I don't think anyone can really do some things differently considering the current budget situation.
til next time
wayne
Does anyone have pictures of 7773? This site needs one. :)
"Which redbird was your favorite,mine's is the R33ML"
Joe I don't believe that we've ever met on any of the fantrips but is obvious that you are gentleman who appreciates a work of art when he sees it. I don't need to name my favorite. I just have to sign my name.
Larry, RedbirdR33
2nd Place Favorite: BluebirdR33 or R-33WF
til next time
til next time
Difference: I have *respect* for pro wrestlers. Hey, anyone who voluntarily gets thrown off a 15 foot high platform for the entertainment of others, fake storylines or not, has some mighty cojones in my book.
And we've already seen that wrestlers can be politicians - has the reverse happened yet?
While the security costs are daunting, and the hassle to the average commuting Joe yet to be seen (they say rush hour delays will be minimized -- we'll all believe that when we see it) one can't argue that the revenue to the city also adds up fast.
One quick fact I was able to find. The RNC has reserved 18,000 hotel rooms in Manhattan. If you figure on $200 per room and an average 5 night stay per room, that's $18 million in hotel revenue. At 13+% hotel tax and 8+% sales tax, that's also about $4 million in sales tax revenue -- for lodging alone. Factor in meals, transportation and other tourist spending and the number gets bigger.
I suspect that revenue to the city and costs are probably closer to being equal than they are to being a huge money loser for the city. Tourism-related businesses make out like bandits.
CG
Unfortunately, even foot access to some areas is going to be restricted.
One quick fact I was able to find. The RNC has reserved 18,000 hotel rooms in Manhattan. If you figure on $200 per room and an average 5 night stay per room, that's $18 million in hotel revenue. At 13+% hotel tax and 8+% sales tax, that's also about $4 million in sales tax revenue -- for lodging alone. Factor in meals, transportation and other tourist spending and the number gets bigger.
You have to take into account the number of rooms that would be occupied by other people during the same time period were the RNC not being held. From what I understand, NYC hotels are running around 75% occupancy; using that figure, the RNC is adding about 4,500 room occupancies.
You're not analyzing the problem correctly. NYC has 70,000 hotel rooms. If 25% of them are vacant on a given night, then there are 17,500 empty rooms. So the 18,000 rooms the RNC books represent 17,500 additional hotel registrations and 500 that would have been booked by someone else, anyway.
In reality, the 500 number is slightly higher (and the 17,500 somewhat lower) since some of the rooms in the 70,000 will probably go unbooked anyway.
CG
New York could have minimized disruption by holding the RNC at the Javits Center rather than MSG. Javits' lack of subway service would not be a major deal because most delegates will be transported in a fleet of chartered buses.
I have a folding bike.
I don't live in Boston.
The Bottom Line:
It doesn't matter to me.
Good Luck NYC in August:)
Gerry
At Atlantic Ave. I was waiting for the Q when a CTA (Cleaner) was already ticked off when a N/B Q train left the station. She mentioned " where is the train." and I knew she was waiting for the B train. I told her the B was not running and advised here to go upstairs for the D. There was an off-duty T/O who noted that "she should've know what times the trains were running." Sure I could've said that but I didn't. I told her to use a map and look at the service grid at the lower right side, below Coney Island.
But that sure was a tad funny (and unusual), an NYCT employee that didn't know how the B line operates.
After all, cleaners are supposed to provide accurate travel directions to customers that they interact with during the performance of their duties. Since it was 10:30 PM and the map said the B operates until 9 PM, then it should be clear to the NYCT employee that she should not be waiting for the B train at that time of the evening.
I can't think of any other industry that would require it's cleaning staff to have anything more than a vague understanding of its operations. Most wouldn't require any understanding whatsoever -- nor would any be expected by their customers.
Random NYCT employees are not expected to memorize subway schedules.
til next time
I've seen R44s with "LONG ISLAND RR"
R44=LIRR
R46=Metro-North
til next time
It's part of the contingency plan for when the M-7s break down en masse and everything else is gone.
Zach
D to Brighton Beach!
All I said was that the Side Signs in R-44 and R-46 cars can display Metro-North and Long Island RR as destinations..
Suppose NY Penn Station was shut down for any extended period of time. NYCTA could operate specials to Jamaica from 34th and 8th with the destination sign "Long Island Railroad" via the Queens Blvd Express tracks or something. The trains would stay on the NYCTA, but they'd be operated in lieu of LIRR service between Jamaica and NYP. Having "LIRR" on the destination sign and some P/R folks out there to direct traffic might reduce confusion among Commuters who needed to get to Jamaica to get home.
Zach
D to Brighton Beach!
-Broadway Buffer
Have a good Fourth
-Tom
They could probably function, but for how long? I think a variable dropping resistor (resistance) inserted somewhere in the mains would keep the electric field from building up too much current flow. (At least that work for me when I was designing power supplies, for my CW tranmitter, when I was a kid) :)
-Broadway Buffer
Have a good Fourth
The higher voltage on the NYC damaged the subway cars' motors.
Your pal,
Fred
If it is, how does someone get into London?
I have a friend leaving this afternoon, Wednesday, July 1, for London.
Any information will be appreciated.
Thank you.
The tube strike did happen (6.30 p.m. Tuesday-6.30 p.m. Wednesday).
"If it is, how does someone get into London?"
Well, that depended where you were coming from! National rail was running, so most people were o.k. as far as their central London main line terminus. From Heathrow Airport, the Piccadilly Line wasn't running but the (expensive) Heathrow Express would have got you as far as Paddington. The other airports aren't served by the tube, so their various rail options would have been working normally.
Once in central London, you would have had problems. Extra buses were running, and the Docklands Light Rail and national rail services would have helped a bit in certain places.
The worst-ff commuters would have been those from areas where there are no national rail services near by - with the Woodford-Epping area probably worst hit.
My only complaint is that on the projects page they mentionthe Schuykill Valley Metro, but not the Roosevlet Boulevard subway project.
Mark
Sean@Temple
P.S. So far i do enjoy the new site. It no longer looks vintage 1998
Mark
Mark
Of course, some of the less needed addresses (i.e. anything Market-Frankford or Broad Street Line (except maybe the Ridge Spur)) are available as well... and slightly wrong. Fern Rock Transportation Center is NOT 5900 North Broad Street, nor is the Regional Rail half of it WEST of 10th Street. Just plain 10th & Nedro would do fine.
BTW, what's with the weekday usage percent at the RRD stations, and why no weekend usage percent? And doesn't Thorndale have 450 spaces?
#3 West End Jeff
R62s from Corona are Major Serviced at CIY.
In any event ALL trains entering or leaving the Flushing Lion from the rest of the system must do so via the BMT Lion.
Because the trippers on the IRT and the BMT are on different sides, a PILOT car with dual trippers must be used on these transfers.
So this is just a normal C-Division movement.
Elias
A link in the text, "bumpy domes," leads to an Accessibility page, where text related to Bumpy Domes reads as follows:
"Bumpy domes along the platform at all key stations alert customers that the edge is near, and flashing lights indicate arriving trains. Large, electronic signs on each platform announce train arrivals and delays. (See stations with bumpy domes)."
What exactly do these so-called "bumpy domes" look like? Are they similar in appearance to the ADA tactile warning strips along many platform edges in the NY subway?
The WMATA ones can be viewed in this photo. Look between the regular red tiles and the granite edge.
-Chris
I have every recording on the L except for "This is Canarsie-Rockaway Parkway."
I also have some from the 2, 4, 5 and 6 (including "This is a Bronx-bound 6 train, the next stop is Fulton Street" from when a GO sent 6 trains to Brooklyn.)
If you want some of the recordings, just say so!
-RJM
-Chris
Note: These are from the R143 trainset with the updated recordings (i.e. "The next and last stop is 8th Avenue)
-RJM
My email is SINY_R143@aol.com.
Thanks.
-Chris
Sorry!
-Chris
I figured they never did since their interior displays STILL say:
"_______ NEXT"
Given the efficiency of substation transformers (high), and the efficiency of rectifiers (nearly 100%), etc etc etc, there's probbably little difference between the two these days. Of course, that assumes DC third rail Vs 60hz overhead AC. Vs 25hz overhead, third rail wins hands down because of the losses converting 60hz AC to 25hz AC (Substantial).
If you want to be pendantic, leakage currents on third rail are probbably a lot higher than overhead.
R-32.
R-32.
R-32.
Boston's Blue Line uses both, third rail west of Maverick, overhead east of Airport and both in between those points. The overhead avoids icing problems on the outdoor section which is quite exposed to the elements, while the third rail is necessary in the tunnel due to clearance problems.
The Red Line to Quincy is all third rail, with heaters approximately every 50' to help prevent icing.
Gerry
Matt
If you're running enough trains, the 3rd Rail should remain clear. If you apply similar wintry conditions to catenary, it will sag and eventually fall down. If the 3rd Rail's iced up, you can still run diesels. If the catenary's down, your whole railroad's screwed.
Not so pedantic, since this is the chief reason there is no new third rail installation nowadays, save on limited-clearance railroads (such as subways).
BTW: Where does the AirTrain get its power?
Me thinks you knead a knew lion!
The politicians that run the PANYNJ. Not from the two-seat ride it necessitates . . .
Not to mention, being elevated means less chance of ground leak & loss.
Depends ,of course, on the system of electrification used.
Some Overhead was used on 600v DC.
Trolleys and LRVs can get away with using overhead 3rd rail and not getting socked with substations every 2400 feet because they operate at lower amperages. A trolley might only take 800-1000 amps off the wire, while a subway train sucks 1300-some amps. Since you have V=IR, where V is voltage in Volts, I is current in Amps, and R is resistance in Ohms, you can lessen the effects of voltage drop on the system. 3rd rail overcomes this by decreasing the resistance by making the cross sectional area of the 3rd rail very large. Trolley overhead overcomes this by lowering the amps, due to their lower power needs. And AC Catenary systems overcome this by raising the voltage so high that barely any amps are needed to provide the same power that the 3rd rail provides at 1300amps.
The 3rd rail / catenary debate has been going on since the earliest days of electrification, and it never seems to end.
Most high speed rail uses overhead high voltage ac service. Because you are using long lines of high voltage ac, you get, in addition to resistance, a good deal of self-inductive impedance and/or capacitative loading (with the ground as the opposite plate to the wire).
Has anyone in this day of solid-state thought of high voltage dc on an overhead system?
"Has anyone in this day of solid-state thought of high voltage dc on an overhead system?"
Belgium uses either 1500 or 3000 vdc. ( I forget which Belgium uses - whichever they do use, some parts of France uses the other ). Some parts of France use [I believe] 3000 vdc.. The Eurostar, when being designed had to be compatible with both as well as the mainstream 25 kvAC., as well as British third rail.
R-32.
Let's leave that statement alone for a minute and get to this:
What more practical decision than to make the power source the same type as the traction from square one - skipping the conversion step.
You need to stop thinking that, because it's wrong, and when you think that and say it aloud, you'll make other people think it too. What we really need is for this myth to die. Now, repeat after me:
AC or DC power transmission has nothing to do with AC or DC traction.
If you have AC power, you don't put it directly into an AC motor. An AC motor that operates at a single frequency (25, 50, or 60Hz) is useless for the purposes of a traction motor. Remember that AC motors are speed-controlled by varying the frequency. You still need an inverter to drive the motor, and you can do that just about equally well with an AC source as a DC source.
It IS a little bit easier to use DC motors with DC power if the supply voltage is correct, because you can connect the motors directly to the power source without the aid of any transformers or on-board rectification. However, even if you're married to DC traction (as the world was until AC speed control became practical,) the discussion doesn't end there. You still need to weigh the costs and benefits of many large lower-voltage DC substations against few large higher-voltage substations and what amounts to tiny substations on each train.
R-32.
By putting this prospect, Eurostar is just utterly amazing at converting different electical system.
"By putting this prospect, Eurostar is just utterly amazing at converting different electical system."
Amen to that brother!!
R-32.
The M-2's and such are cool, of course.....but only similar is right. The Eurostars' trainsets are much more sophisticated. You should pick up the book on Channel Tunnel trains. The power cars use GTO (gate turn-off) thyristors. Metro North, and such only deal with two voltages, and only one catenary system - Eurostar takes care of four voltages.
Besides, voltage is just one aspect of their sophistication. The cars are smaller than the TGV it takes after; owing to the tighter curves on the British lines. Two different platform heights: French platforms are lower. Plus, whereas the TGV has a carrier cable along the roofs of the cars - allowing only one pantograph to be needed for the propulsion of the whole 10 car trainset; the Channel Tunnel committee deemed this unsafe. They decided to prevent electrical transmission between cars. Therefore, on the Eurostars, there are power collector cars mid-train - pantographs and all. I don't know if they're actually motored, though. Then, of course, the Eurostars are not articulated.
R-32.
No. Only the two end power cars have collectors. One panto for AC, another for DC and third rail pickup shoes.
Then, of course, the Eurostars are not articulated.
All Eurostar half-train sets are articulated except for the power cars. The connection between the two half-train sets is of course, not articulated. The standard length Eurostar set look like this.
Power car--9 articulated trailers--9 articulated trailers--Power car
That sounds alarmingly easy to gap.
It's not a problem restricted to Eurostars. If they indeed have only one set of 3rd Rail shoes, incidents like this extremely silly one can unfortunately happen. (In the case mentioned, I don't know why they didn't get the jumper leads out.)
BTW, that incident sounds really silly... Another Thomas the Tank Engine kind of episode. e.g. James leaves without his driver, Thomas and his driver leaves Knapford without his coaches, etc...
I do believe that the first - adjacent to the power car - truck of the nine car set is powered. That is, the third truck in the train (as well as the last truck before the power car) is powered - just like the TGV.
R-32.
That is correct. The Eurostar set have six powered trucks per train. Two on each of the two power cars, plus the two adjacent trucks.
just like the TGV.
Only partially correct. The original Paris-Lyon TGV sets had the same arrangement of six powered trucks. All subsequent TGV designs have only had four powered trucks, under the power cars; more modern technology or experience made six trucks unnecessary.
Of course the Eurostar sets are significantly longer and heavier than any of the TGV sets, hence the need to revert to the six powered trucks approach.
Matt
Overhead allows higher speeds.
Matt
There are a coulpe of High Voltage DC transmission lines out here.
And there ARE NO CYCLES to keep in sync! That's why it is DC!
Elias
Matt
Do they need to be synchronized between plants or just within the plant? For instance, (since I am in Ohio) if Davis-Besse (FirstEnergy Nuke Plant) is supplying DC power (which I believe they are not) to Cleveland along with another DC plant, do the two plants need to be synchronized to each other (as in AC) or is it just that each generator in one plant needs to be synchronized with the others in the same plant? Or do modern transmission systems rectify the AC, in which case it should be clean?
TIA
Matt
With AC generation, it's downright critical. With DC plants, a bit of slop isn't so bad as long as you have speed and pretty close to the right "angle" ... as to "modern systems" you can BET it's a WHOLE lot cheaper to rectify commercial power than to fool around with big maintenance intensive rotating metal. Heh.
And you're MOST welcome - isn't all that often that subtalk turns to things I'm knowledgeable on nowadays - other than politics. :)
I *was* wondering a bit about that even as I posted.
Obviously a battery has no cycles, and that *is* the standard for DC, I guess, but on DC rectified from AC, I still got chatter on some motors or relays on my layout.
So the pulse is all + or - depending upon which wire you are holding and not + and - every 60 seconds all on the one wire, eh? Well that makes sense. But you loose the line losses (yes?) due to historisis(?) (or whatever) as compaired to AC.
We have two DC lions that cross ND easy to spot (two wires not three).
Elias
Let's say you've got the proverbial "Enron stack" ... like a TELCO central office ... batteries out the wazoo, and everybody's got a happy loop *PLUS* DT ("dialtone") ... HAPPY DAYS indeed! :)
EVERY battery (that's worth electrically recycling "on line") is BEST served by having DIODES between it and the load (prevents a phenomenon known as "reversing the cell") ... and a SEPARATE diode-controlled path from the "trickle-charger" ... when folks learn ELECTRONICS in training, it's the usual, tired old "Ohm's law" which applies ONLY to DC where if you have a battery that's 1.0 volts [hint: most "batteries provide between 1.20 volts (NI-CD) and 2.4 (Lead_acid) volts]) and a resistance of 1.0 OHMS, 1.0 AMPS will flow through the resistance by math. The DIODES allow current to flow from the battery to the load. At the same time, the REVERSE bias from the presence of the diodes prevents REVERSE current flow wherein one "weak" battery may suck current from the good batteries. IN the realm of DC, "rectifiers" ensure that current flows ONE way, but not BACK.
DC is the FIRST thing you learn in electronics, because it's as simple as Edison. And EDISON was *so* simple (and unworthy of the rhetoric, unlike TESLA, who WON the "AC power argument" as all might have noticed at their power outlets) Heh. But once you grasp the concepts of RESISTANCE, along comes IMPEDANCE, and you're suddenly in the world of "EDISON was a simplistic MORON who makes DUBYA look like a frigging GENIUS!" ... welcome to *NIKOLAI TESLA* and *AC!!!* Heh. ("You AMERICANS are so weak, like your coffee." - (Angry Beavers cartoon series) ...
Bottom line though - hook up multiple batteries with "isolation diodes" and all's happy ... as long as you don't have "reverse flows," all is well and good. Any "voltage bounces" you're experiencing is the result of "voltage droop" owing to too high a resistance for wiring in the "problem area" ... too much demand, not enough electrons. DC is EASY, AC is complex. Ask ANY engineer what they'd rather predict and design for, "AC or DC" and TELL me how many wanna phuck with Tesla. :)
On DC "Rowr! NICE kitty!" power lions, what ONLY matters is that DC power off rotating metal *HAS* commutators ... to put it in terms of AC that most folks know, let's assume we have a generator with "2 commutators" (worst POSSIBLE design) ... you get the SAME equivalent waveform of a simple rectifier withough filtering ... 60 Hz AC in, you get 120 Hz DC out. For the 60 cycle "round" all you get at the output is a sine wave that goes from 0 volts to 120 and then back. SECOND half cycle, you get ooo-gots. 70.7 volts output from 110 *averaged* ... in reality, you're getting 0 voltes ramping up to a peak of 110 for a "half of the "cycle." (that's what cycles, kilocycles, megacycles was all abnout in ancient electronics school) Make that a FULL-WAVE or "bridge rectifier," NOW you've got 141.4 volts of 120 HZ superimposed AC, but it ain't CLEAN like a battery. That's where "filtering" comes into play, but let's skip that esoteric. :)
Six of one, half dozen of the other in goverspeak. :)
OK ... so down to YOUR thingy there ... "Hysteresis" as you are asking is a PURELY Tesla matter ... as a result of the constant reversals of current in AC, there are stray currents in metal called "hysteresis" .... it's not so much about the electrons though as it is about the MAGNETIC properties of metals ... how when exposed to a FLUX, some metals will go from a +3 to a spontaneous -3 without hittin zero or passing zero as far as the electrical properties go. Hysteresis is sorta (best EASILY explained as a "reluctance" or a refusal to hit a "zero state" and thus pass THROUGH zero to a negative quickly) without a "fight" or giving up of energy.
NOW ... as to DC power lines, DC is "battery" ... it's QUITE "steady state" as basic electronics math provides (humankind is *SO* arrogant as to accept that math "rulez" - sometimes it's GOD and whoops! to the math) ... HOWEVER, in power distribution, EVERY DC generator has "segments" between, and separating the coils and the load. The MORE of these "commutaions" you have, the closer to DC output you get. But AS the coils swing PAST the magnets, there's "rises and falls" of "peak voltage" ... when DC generator "poles" are in sync, the trnasitions are relatively minor ... a SLIGHT AC voltage superimposed ont he more "flat" DC voltage ... the more generators DEVIATE from "perfect," the more "trash" is generated ...
ANYBODY HERE ever hear the subway train PA come on with a *WHINE* coming out of the speakers? Hello ... DIS-harmony in the generation. A *pure* DC souce doesn't have "AC whine" superimposed. Sounds like a telephone rather than ... "Twwwwweeeeeeeeeee ..." TA third rail is "dirty" owing to the power sources ... then again, the NOISE on the third rail is what "new tech cars" DETECT if they're going to do "regenerative braking" ... so that noise (and bumps and groans) is *so* expected that it was DESIGNED FOR!)
And therein lies the SLAP to Nikola Tesla. :)
Call it magic. Heh.
Speaking for the Council of Felids, I do not want to hear anything more about saggy cats!
Ice and Snow will weigh a wire down.
Cold will NOT cause the wire to sag, HEAT will do that.
Haven't you ever seen a cat in heat! Sparks will Fly!
In North Dakota the Wind and the Ice are the biggies for power lion problems. Outages fo a few seconds to a few days may ensue.
The Broadway Lion!
R-32.
Frequently locomotives will run with both pans up for icy wires.
The first pan knocks the ice down, and the second one collects the power.
Elias
R-32.
Well it isn't all that hard because Britain has been using it for years - since the early 20th century, that is. Those lines Southeast of London (I believe) are apparently known to go about 100 MPH (160 KPH). That's all not to mention our own Long Island Rail Road which is capable of 100 or 120 MPH - depending on car type (M-3 vs. M-1) - but doesn't put it into practice because, I hear, the current track can't take it. So no, that is not entirely true. Any 'precision' needed is just a necessary evil and that's that.
"Besides, you can't use 3d rail on opened surface ways because of safety requirements. For example, all the surface metro ways with 3d rail I saw in Moscow had high concrete fences to prevent extraneous people's trespassing."
Please try to remember, there is more than just Moscow. You can run third rail on the surface, as it is done anywhere there is third rail - anywhere on earth, that is. They do that in NY without a problem. Plus, unless London or England has changed recently, you can walk right up on those tracks and get zapped if you desire. Remember, those third rails are bare open - like NY many years ago.
A reminder that Europe has no mercy on stupidity.
Finally, there are plenty of catenary metros. Most of the newer metros use catenary. This includes Barcelona, Rome, Sao Paolo, Berlin, as well as other cities in Germany and Europe.
R-32.
Thanks, I will transfer your information to that guy who told about
100 km/h limit. It's interesting, what he will say?
>Plus, unless London or England has changed recently, you can walk >right up on those tracks and get zapped if you desire. Remember, >those third rails are bare open - like NY many years ago.
>A reminder that Europe has no mercy on stupidity.
Looks too weird in the times when any lousy pencil must have the
Certificate of Safety, and any kid having a conversation with unfamiliar man is considered as a victim of the crime. We have the saying: "Moscow does not believe in tears". Probably, Europe does believe it even less. :)
Not often, and not in many places. The speed limitations of third rail were one of the reasons why 25 kv AC overhead line electrification was adopted in the 1960s as the standard for main line electrification in the UK.
"Plus, unless London or England has changed recently, you can walk right up on those tracks and get zapped if you desire. Remember, those third rails are bare open - like NY many years ago."
In the UK, railway lines are fenced - anyone walking on the tracks is trespassing and knows that they are. However, the litigious blame culture is spreading to the UK, so although I don't know of any cases of trespassers suing the railways, it'll come, no doubt.
Of course, if someone wants to commit suicide on a railway, they don't need a third rail for it. Recently, a married couple in intractable financial difficulties jumped together in front of a train from a station platform on the East Coast Main Line, which is of course 25 kv AC overhead electrified. A train going at 100+ mph is going to kill you whatever traction it might be using.
The fact remains that 3rd Rail will allow 100mph easily. The reason that many Southern lines (mainly the SE, Chatham, and Brighton ones) are so slow is that the geometry is particularly inept. There also happen to be poorly laid out lines North of the River.
Take for example the horrible curves through Mitcham Junction. A comparably bad situation existed at Newton-le-Wilows on the LNWR. The LNWR built a line to by-pass the horrid curvy section with junctions to perpendicular lines. The LBSCR didn't. The LBSCR could well be criticised for that, but their electrification system is not to blame.
In fact, I'd take a bet on 3rd Rail working at 110mph. I can only think of two or three places in the UK where the speed limit's any higher, so realistically the issue's more about compatibility than speed.
This is where your fellow countryman in the successive thread has it right, and you - I'm afraid - have it wrong. Yes, often, and there are plenty of places here, and - apparently - in your country too. However a third rail is the last thing that hinders speed. Here, the Long Island Rail Road goes at least 80 - with the third rail. The track is the only thing limiting that speed, not the third rail. For that matter, the LIRR has cars capable of 120!
A train going at 100+ mph is going to kill you whatever traction it might be using.
Let us refocus upon the point of this discussion, shall we? Right; our friend 'Anton_75' remarked that third rail is the reason that much third rail metro trackage is not outside - which I quickly debunked. As such, my response pertaining to getting zapped on the tracks - if one so desires - was as a function of the electrified trackage; not the purely the railway itself. This was to say metros weren't afraid to bring tracks to the surface simply because there's juice and people might get zapped. Big deal, they can jump in front of a train; for that matter, I could walk out into the middle of an interstate (motorway) in front of a lorry - to the same end. That is not the point, it is about the electrification in this discussion.
In the UK, railway lines are fenced - anyone walking on the tracks is trespassing and knows that they are. However, the litigious blame culture is spreading to the UK, so although I don't know of any cases of trespassers suing the railways, it'll come, no doubt.
Well then.... they have changed recently.
R-32.
Well then.... they have changed recently.
The fences are there in the terms of the acts of Parliament which set up each individual line. There are of course still sections which have never been fenced.
Sure you COULD do maybe 150 with a 3rd rail powered train with substations at a .75 mile pitch and the thing cranked up to 1000vdc. But, by the same token, catenary powered trains have done 321mph with no modifications to the electric supply system other than some pantograph aerodynamic work, and do 186mph in regular service all over continental Europe and Japan.
No no.... it's the M-3's that are capable of 120... not the M-1's. The M-1's can only reach 100. The M-3's look the same, but are mechanically very different from the M-1's. The LIRR uses 650 vdc.
I respect the high speed of catenary; I think it's wonderful. I'm just saying that third rail is capable of speed.
I am very aware of the French TGV-A speed record of 500 KPH or 320 MPH. Do be aware that that train was 'souped up' in the order of larger diameter wheels and fewer cars ( and I think something else). The Japanese have gotten up to 320 MPH I've heard (that's what I've heard). Alot of those 'speed' records are trains souped up in some way. They usually make a run with no passengers, fewer cars, or more powerful motors etc. The only real speed record I've heard of happened recently on the new line from the Channel Tunnel to London with the Eurostar: 202 MPH!
R-32.
You mean used. It was upgraded to 750v around the same time as the M1 debuted.
that train was 'souped up' in the order of larger diameter wheels and fewer cars ( and I think something else).
IIRC, higher voltage and downhill tracks. BTW, the early tests and speed record (331kph) by the SNCF in the 50s were done on 1.5kvDC overhead lines upped to 1.9kv and that record wasn't beaten for a real long time.
Okay, thanks for the correction; although I think it's more like when the M-3's debuted. This is because I very surely seem to remember various signs and warnings etc. saying '650 volts D.C.' (that's pertaining to the trackage and traction), and that was in the '80's. The M-1's came in the '70's.
That's what makes the Eurostar's record more legitimate. That was a train full of passengers and no 'soup ups' no voltage hop-ups, no downhill trackage (necessarily), and yet it achieved 202 MPH.
R-32.
The R44s drew 650V DC from LIRR's third rail, a power supply system inherited from the Pennsylvania Railroad. The introduction of the Budd Company's high-performance M1 commuter MUs, beginning in 1968, mandated an upgrade of third-rail power to 750V DC in order to exploit the M1's capabilities. This work was carried out during 1971 and 1972, and was not quite finished when the R44s made their record-breaking runs.
Never underestimate the info on our beloved site.
:-)
It *was* one of the reasons given for the choice at the time. Whether it is true now - technology having moved one - I don't know. All *really* high-speed lines, such as the French and Japanese systems, do use overhead catenary. There were other reasons, of course, such as the need for fewer substations along long rural sections of line.
The 442s (5-WES) aren't alone. The 375s, 377s, the 424 prototype unit, the 444s (5-DES), 450s (4-DES), 458s (4-JOP), and 460s (8-GAT) all are 100mph capable (as indeed are the 373s, if they count). In addition, the 410/411/412s (4-BEP/4-CEP) 413s (4-CAP), 414s (2-HAP), 418s (2-SAP), 419s (MLV), 421s (4-CIG/4-COP), 422s (ex-420s, 4-BIG), 423s (4-VEP/4-VOP), 427s (4-VEG), 432s (ex-430s, 4-REPs), 438s (ex-491s, 4-TC), 480s (8-VAB), 488s, 489s (1-GLV), 492s (3-TC), and 499s (TLV) are 90mph capable.
I'm not aware of any section on the SE&C on which a train could get up to 100mph (it's better than the Brighton, but still an inferior constituent). The only line they could probably do that on is the CTRL, which is irrelevant as it's OHLE.
Doesn't Berlin use MNCRR style 3rd Rail?
R-32.
R-32.
As for those questioning whether or not the high blood pressure was hereditary in his case...I'm told his father had it, but the doctors are unclear as to whether or not that is the cause of his current condition (hypertension), or if there are other factors behind it.
However, if you post your well-wishes in this thread, it would cheer him up a little.
I've never met him in person yet but he is a funny guy to talk to. I'm hoping he will have a full recovery.
Chuck Greene
Today the doctors found a mass in dante's lower abdomen that will most likely require surgery. He has been asymptomatic all this time and has not had any indications that this was present in his system. Had he not come in for his pressure being high we would not have known anything was wrong.
They still are not completely sure if the mass itself is causing his pressure to be elevated..They may not know until after surgery is done. They are working to stabilize it but at this point it is still very high.
For the record I will be printing out the well wishes that dante has been getting from the board and taking them to him for him to read. I thank everyone here in advance for their encouraging words and support.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Get well and best wishes.
Bob
Chuck Greene
I hope you get well soon. Sorry to hear you're not well now.
I hope the mass that was found is not cancerous.
Koi
Since you're going to be bringing this along to our buddy, Unca Selkirk's praying for ya and you STILL owe me some face time on an arnine, buddy! :)
Regards,
Jimmy
Best wishes for a speedy recovery.
Jeremy aka JPC
I can't even begin to say how much I appreciate all the prayers and well-wishes from the people here (also I recall from the posts that my mother printed out that there was another thread somewhere, but I couldn't find it...) as well as the visits from SciGuy, Flatbush, mr brian and Newkirk Plaza David. I sure miss this place, and I also miss the subway...I haven't seen the subway in over a month, except in some really wierd dreams including one where CI and Jamaica switched equipment, and another where there was a GO that the J/M were somehow replacing the A/C/F between Brooklyn & Manhattan.
I can't believe all the stuff I missed...the four BU MOD trips, the replacing of the school cars at CI & PS 248 with the R110Bs, the shutdown of Times Square, and a whole bunch of DUHs from FOX and the NY Post.
I don't know how much longer they'll let me stay on this computer (remember, I'm still in the ICU), but hopefully by this time tomorrow (or Friday) I'll be back to posting regularly again.
Again, thanks for your thoughts and prayers.
Hobbyists or Terrorists? Railfans Find it Hard to Pursue Passion in Post-September 11 World
Commuter Weekly, June 29, 2004
Some people like tinkering with old cars. Others love collecting stamps and coins or building model airplanes. Bird watchers, on the other hand, love watching and “collecting” bird species. Then, there are railfans-also known as train spotters, foamers (as in, “foaming at the mouth” when they see a train) and railbuffs. No matter what you call them, there are an estimated 175,000 railfans in the U.S., almost all of whom are men, and they all share one common passion: trains. Clubs, Web sites and even vacation excursions all serve to feed their passion for trains.
According to Rob Buckman, a railfan and owner of 3RI, a Web site dedicated to railroad images, the casual observer might not notice that trains are all that different. You’ve seen one train … you've seen them all, right? But, stresses Buckman, “Rarely will two trains be exactly alike. The engines pulling that train blocking the crossing and made you late for work? They might have been GP38-2s, an engine that is quickly fading from the scene like the steam engines of years gone by. Who cares? It is the same type of person who cares and knows about the old muscle cars, like an Olds Cutlass 442 or Barracuda.”
For many years, railfans were largely left alone, allowed to document their train sightings with cameras (most railfans are photographers, documenting trains through their lenses), and sometimes documenting engine paint schemes, engine numbers, number of cars, and train frequency in well-worn notebooks. But then came September 11, and, much later, train bombings in Madrid, Spain. Suddenly, an innocent pastime became viewed as maybe something a bit more sinister. Could that man with a camera really be a terrorist plotting out the best way to derail or bomb a train, or is he merely a railfan pursuing a hobby?
“Anyone seen taking photographs is going to be questioned,” said Richard Maloney, a spokesman for SEPTA, Philadelphia’s public transit authority, in a recent Time magazine about railfans. “The wide-open spaces and the freedom we have enjoyed to meander almost anywhere is gone.”
It’s a sentiment shared by John Almeida, profiled in the Time magazine article, who chases train every day during lunch hour. He sets up four video cameras on tripods beside the tracks and waits, listening to his scanner. Over the past 15 years, he has shot hundreds of hours of video and tens of thousands of pictures. And since September 11, he has been mistaken for a terrorist about once a month and has been followed by an Amtrak helicopter, questioned by police and rail workers and described to a 911 dispatch as a "suspicious Middle Eastern male." (Although Almeida is of Irish Catholic descent.)
But regardless of how you feel about the situation-whether you think that railfans should be left to pursue their hobby or whether you think that railfans should pursue a different hobby in this post-September 11 environment, one thing is clear: no one should ever, ever walk on railroad tracks or enter private rail property without permission. It’s illegal and dangerous, with the consequences sometimes fatal. It will also be viewed by law enforcement as a security risk.
Operation Lifesaver, an organization dedicated to educating the public about railroads and ensuring the public’s safety, began a public outreach program in 1972, in fact, that has helped reduce the number of injuries and fatalities on the tracks by 75 percent. And since it became clear that railfans’ desires were often at odds with the desires of the Department of Homeland Security, Operation Lifesaver reached out to railfans with the Railfan Tips and Security Advisory, developed in cooperation with the U.S. Transportation Security Administration (TSA).
“Nearly 1,000 people die each year because they do not understand railroads,” Operation Lifesaver President Gerri Hall explains. “They underestimate the power of trains and the dangers around the rails. In particular, children learn from the example of their siblings and older friends, based on what they see, not what they hear.”
Operation Lifesaver’s complete Railfan Tips and Security Advisory is available online, but key points of Operation Lifesaver’s Safety Message which apply to everyone-include:
Do not trespass on railroad property or rights-of-way. It is illegal, it can be deadly, and you also may appear to be a serious security risk. Remember, railroad property may extend 200 feet on either side of the tracks.
Do not enter private rail property without permission.
Never walk out on a railroad bridge or trestle.
Stay out of railroad tunnels.
Do not climb on railroad property such as signal bridges, cabinets or other structures.
Never climb on or crawl under railroad cars or equipment.
Obey all highway-rail grade crossing signs and signals.
Of course, both rail enthusiasts and the public can be a big part of the safety/security solution by always cooperating with law enforcement and, any time you see suspicious activities near the tracks, reporting them to local authorities.
By following these guidelines, pedestrians and rail riders can enjoy train travel and help maintain the security of our nation’s transportation system.
In other words - don't take pictures.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Railfan photography isn't covered by the freedom of speech because that mainly protects people's right to criticize the government, as well as talk about stuff. The freedom of press thing is possibly applicable to railfanning, but we aren't really reporting anything. The president is breaking the freedom of press by not allowing certain aspects of the war to be photographed, and also that incident with Anton Scalia a few weeks ago.
So therefore, unfortunately, as much as we dislike it, government can ban railfan photography, for it would be constitutional to do so. Although one can argue that railfanning is their religion, or some silly thing like that, and make a railfanning religion that the government would try to ban, but can't, since that would truly be unconstitutional.
BTW, all of this sucks and I'd like to press the rewind button to the year 2000, and get Gore to do more campaigning in his home state, then rewind to 1998, when the CIA launched cruise missiles at al-Qaeda camps, and change the coordinates so that they strike al-Qaeda HQ, then this whole mess would be avoided...
No it wouldn't. Al-Qaeda is effectively a myth anyway. I'm not saying that there aren't terrorists who call themselves members of Al-Qaeda, but it's not really a hierarchical organization that would collapse with the death of its leader. These people hate America Bin Laden or not.
As a railfan I think a photo ban would be wrong-minded. I enjoy videotaping and photographing my cab rides. On the other hand, the TA's mission statement does refer to SAFE transportation and it's for the agency to determine what is needed to keep the majority of riders (who are not railfans) safe. If they determine that banning photography under narrow circumstances is prudent then it's their judgement.
Photography is not the only aspect to railfanning. Obviously some people consider Skylarking or surfing to be part of railfanning. Other railfans think that exploring tunnels, changing side signs, or tagging or even stealing a train is what railfanning is all about. Common sense dictates that if you can ban tagging or tunnel exploration as unacceptable forms of railfanning, why can't photography be equally subjectively banned. Clearly it can be but equally clearly it hasn't been to this point. If and when it is, we'll still have other ways to enjoy our hobby. Even if it is 'banned', most of us will still be able to enjoy it simply by getting a permit. Try getting a permit to photograph in Rikers Island.
Obviously though, there are some issues that I haven't seen discussed as far as this goes that might be of interest to those planning to address this issue. Obviously, commercial photography "customers" would be able to obtain a permit and credentials. I don't however see any particular interest in granting "hobbyist" permits from what I've read. But even IF the agency will be granting those, there's something folks are missing here ...
State agencies are permitted (nay, ENCOURAGED) to charge a FEE for any paperwork of any kind if paperwork is to be done, even more so if it results in some form of certificate. One of the questions I don't see being raised is what kind of *FEE* will be charged for this transaction, amounting to a "railfan tax" ... will it prohibit inner city kids from pursuing one of the less expensive "hobbies?"
I agree with you that a ban/permit requirement would almost certainly be upheld in the courts.
I would add that as a New Yorker who doesn't take pictures in the subway I think the ban would be wrong-minded. There is no conceivable way that a ban (or permit requirement) would improve security. It would give NYC even more of a bad name than it already has as a bureaucratic place that makes money by giving summonses to innocent tourists.
It would also make MTA management look very foolish, which is also bad for New York. Lots of people will realize that the ban is a way to look like you're doing something about terrorism without actually providing any substance.
Actually doing something to make the subways safe from terrorism without making them unusuable is an incredibly difficult, unglamorous, and unnoticed task. The MTA seems to be propsing an easy route to look effective without necessarily being effective.
Do you know something the rest of us don’t? I’ve seen no indications that permits will actually be available to the general public.
It also introduces an administrative burden on the TA which does not enhance the security of the subways - and will create a budget hole that DHS will not necessarily fill with federal dollars.
Having said that, I should add that there is merit in your previous post. If the TA is sensible, it will minimize the inconvenience to the rail buffs.
Incidentally, rail buffs (not the ones in the minority who trash trains, jump turnstiles or threaten public safety) are good for the TA. They ride frequently, buy MetroCards, encourage other people to ride and even advocate for the TA when hearings come up. The TA should indulge them where possible because they are allies of the agency.
How about the experience of the last two years, when one or more NYCT spokespeople have said that the MTA does require permits for photography but isn't issuing any. Surely that is a suggestion (though by no means a guarantee) of policy to come.
Are you truly 100% confident that the MTA WILL issue permits if the proposal goes through?
“Anyone seen taking photographs is going to be questioned,” said Richard Maloney, a spokesman for SEPTA, Philadelphia’s public transit authority, in a recent Time magazine about railfans. “The wide-open spaces and the freedom we have enjoyed to meander almost anywhere is gone.”
It’s a sentiment shared by John Almeida, profiled in the Time magazine article, who chases train every day during lunch hour.
I certainly DO NOT share those sentiments! No one has taken away our freedoms yet, but they ARE trying very hard. The following just happened yesterday.....
CSX C770 derailed at least a couple of cars while shoving back into the Bucks County Ind Park across from Woodbourne Yard on the Trenton Line. SEPTA was running trains on Track 2 between Wood and Nesh while CSX and SEPTA personnel dealt with the cars. Half of the train was pulled south of the switch and sent back to Woodbourne while about 5-6 cars and one engine were on the BCIP trackage.
Went to Fairless Jct, gave my card to some employees there and asked to take a few pics at a distance, after which an employee who I presume was the foreman yelled "OUT OF HERE!", which I did. Went to the public overpass and got pictures of the cars and dirty looks from the crew on the ground. Then went around to the JC Penney warehouse, gave them my card and asked to take some pictures from inside their gated parking lot and a guy in the office said OK. Got my pics, then found out that guy was not THE GUY. When he approached me (actually honked at me from his car), THE GUY said he was told that CSX had just chased me away from the scene! I explained that I had asked and received permission from someone at the office (how the hell am I supposed to know who in the office is supposed to give out the permission slips), and I left. Then went to the parking lot of the ind park to get some more shots when another guy from CSX approached me in my car and said "Didn't we tell you to get out of here!"
That was it, I almost lost it. I told the guy I wanted his card. He
asked why, and I said I wanted to know how he could tell me to get out of a parking lot THAT IS NOT CSX PROPERTY. He backed off, and at that point I let him have it, logically speaking. I explained everything from why the people in BCIP did not know about the derailment in their back yard (because CSX did not tell anyone), why he and everyone else from CSX think they can do and say anything they want anywhere they want, why he was concerned with me when I was nowhere near the derailment (he blurted something about security issues and the ubiquitous "9/11" - what the hell that has to do with CSX putting cars on the ground is unfathomable), why there would be "privacy issues" (his words) regarding me taking pictures of the scene that is in public view and concerns the well-being of us all. I also told him about the article in this week's Time Magazine about Homeland Security recruiting truckers to keep an eye on things "suspicious"
http://www.time.com/time/archive/preview/0,10987,1101040705-658321,00.html
and asked why not enlist us railfans (who on the whole seem much more
enlightened than the gear jockeys in the article). I wish I had recorded the tidal wave of frustration that I unleashed on this guy about the stupidity and arrogance running rampant in our society. In the end, I left and hopefully at least one CSX employee had something to thing about.
I have had it with morons. I am mad as hell and I am not going to take it anymore.
No, it hasn't. You're taking it for no logical reason, Mr. Maloney.
-why are you stopping people taking pictures? is it against the law?
- when your own cops break your own regulations by smoking on MFL station platforms (next time I see it, I'll take a pic of 'em)
- when your own cops cant enforce basic Septa regulations like smoking, littering, 'cracking forties' on the subway.
As an aside, remember just after Sept 11th, we weren't going to change our habits, etc, when that would be 'giving in' to the terrorists? Well, it looks like the terrorists are winning, with a little help from the dept of homelnd securitie, plus our local friendly transit agencies.
Just hold your hand out and demand to see their ID card. Reject it if it is not a photo ID card, and explain to them that they have no RIGHT WHATSOEVER to even suggest that you suspend your freedoms as an American.
Write down his name and information, and then ask him the name of his supervisor, and what department that he works in.
Inform him that you have rights to take pictures, that the Taliban and AlKida did NOT win the war, and that you will report him to his superiors and to the authorities for infringing on your rights.
Now we did have a rail wreck out here in North Dakota, happend less than one mile from my front door, but would you believe nobody in town heard anything. Apparently hoppers full of coal do not make much noise. I guess the coal attenuates the sounds.
Pictures were no problem, even from RR property. I guess with a wreck in town they must have figured that there was no way to hide it anyway.
Elias
ask the FEDS why thy started this stupid crap...or rather ask your greedy ass president and is father about it...
it a damn shame how the powers that be have be allowed to play on the public they way they have been doing lately
all in the name of ''HOMELAND SECURITY''....
makes me ill,I tell you....
Can't wait untill our Creator returns,to make them suffer for this....
You'd think there was a guy there trying to take pictures of the trains...
www.forgotten-ny.com
?
www.forgotten-ny.com
it's the first one
--Mark
Right now you can ride seven different kinds of MU's on Metro-North spanning 40 years of service. I don't think that any other "mainline"
railroad in the country has as many types in service.
On the Harlem and Hudson Lines we have the Pullman-Standard ACMU's from 1962 and 1965. The Budd built M-1A's from 1981-83. The Budd built M-3A's from 1982-84 and the brand new M-7A.
On the New Haven Line we have the M-2's built by General Electric and Canadian Vickers from 1973 to 1976. Remember when they were call "Cosmopolitans." There are the M-4's built by Tokyu Car and the M-6's bulit by Morrison-Knudsen.
Ten of the M-2's are still configurged as "Cafe" cars and are refered to as M-2C's. The may be the last electric mu bar cars left in the country.
Also if your lucky enough to ride out of Grand Central on tracks 1 or 2 (the two center ones) you will pass through the "Mount Prospect Tunnel" just before you reach the portal at 97 Street. This is one of only three remaining pre-Civil War built railway tunnels in New York City and the only one of the three that still has railway service.
SO come down to GCT and by your ticket before you board the train.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
The best time to ride a rail line is when new cars are coming in and the old cars are phasing out. Not only does it provide variety but it gives one an opportunity to see how the equiptment has evolved over the years.
Right now you can ride seven different kinds of MU's on Metro-North spanning 40 years of service. I don't think that any other "mainline"
railroad in the country has as many types in service.
On the Harlem and Hudson Lines we have the Pullman-Standard ACMU's from 1962 and 1965. The Budd built M-1A's from 1971-73. The Budd built M-3A's from 1982-84 and the brand new M-7A.
On the New Haven Line we have the M-2's built by General Electric and Canadian Vickers from 1973 to 1976. Remember when they were call "Cosmopolitans." There are the M-4's built by Tokyu Car and the M-6's bulit by Morrison-Knudsen.
Ten of the M-2's are still configurged as "Cafe" cars and are refered to as M-2C's. The may be the last electric mu bar cars left in the country.
Also if your lucky enough to ride out of Grand Central on tracks 1 or 2 (the two center ones) you will pass through the "Mount Prospect Tunnel" just before you reach the portal at 97 Street. This is one of only three remaining pre-Civil War built railway tunnels in New York City and the only one of the three that still has railway service.
SO come down to GCT and by your ticket before you board the train.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
wayne
Kidding aside, I wonder who was the dolt who mixed up the names.
Iwas returning from NE queens via #7 this night at approx 2:10 am and a washing crew was servicing an area mid platform. It seemed odd that no other area of the station was wet and that their attention was centered in one spot. Now I know why.
My business took me on a total of 6 trains this evening, every one of them had a selection of freaks, creeps and stoners. The worst I can recall since the late '80s.
I hope this is not indicative of the summer to come.
When the train short stopped at Willets Pt because of the incident at Main St, one of the freaks was a guy dressed in womens clothing, lip stick, hair and all.
Watch what you say, you remember what happened to John Rocker the last time he talked about freaks on the 7...
Watch what you say, you remember what happened to John Rocker the last time he talked about freaks on the 7...
Between Freak and F.., F.. would get you hurt if you told it to them, rather then the other one. :/
I said F.., NOT .F.
That you should understand.
Your spelling was going F.., F..
I SAID "F..", then ".A.", so the third would be "..G"
Now does your little brain understand? I didnt think you were dumb, but now I think you definitly are.
And if you still dont get it, the dots represent the unmeantiond letters, hence why F.., .A., ..G, NOW DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
Since we're spelling the same word, lets call it even.
Your still spelling out the same word, I only used the short word. Go back to elementary school and learn how to spell. Because right now, you surely dont understand anything.
But since we're talking about the same word
what are you griping about?
Instead of saying it as one word, I put it as 3 seperate ones.
Your saying I'm wrong in the way I'm saying it, yet its the same thing you said. This aint the only time you didnt understand anything. -_-
Your one big idiot. How the F am I trying to confuse you if I keep telling you what the F I been telling you for the past god damn posts. Just because your one dumb idiot, doesnt mean you can then blame me for trying to un-confuse you. Sheesh.
"I ain't answering no more."
Took you long enough to realize you were wrong.
"I ain't wasting my 30 posting quota repeating myself."
Actually its the opposite, I had to repeat myself for YOU TO UNDERSTAND. I already knew what you were saying.
-_-
Da Hui
When the train short stopped at Willets Pt because of the incident at Main St, one of the freaks that was on the train was a guy dressed in womens clothing, lip stick, hair and all.
It was 'abandoned,' so to speak. I believe it was done to construct new booths at stations nearer the tunnels.
I hope this is not indicative of the summer to come.
It isn't. The media always loves to dramatize these stories and makes it look like the system is going down. Regardless of these incidents, crime in the subway is still at record lows.
Howard Stern as kingmaker in the presidential race. Yeah, I know, don't read this on a full stomach.
Here's my sad story for all who care to listen:
I was visiting a friend on the Upper East Side, and left about 10:45 and got on the (6) at 86th and Lex, with my eventual destination to my car, parked at Queens Boulevard and 40th St. I got off the (6) at 59th Street/Lex and went downstairs to wait for the N/W. A R came, then a N came. A combination of listening to the beautiful sounds coming from the pipa and keyboard musicians on the platform, along with the barely audible PA system saying that the next stop was 39th Street distracted me from realizing that I should have gone back upstairs to take the (6) down to 42nd/GCT.
As the N train emerged from the tunnel, I noticed I had a voice mail, which I later listened to. It was my dad informing of the closure of Queensboro Plaza. As we passed QBPZ, I took out my Queens bus map to try to find an alternative route to my car. If I got off at Broadway in Astoria, I saw that I could take the Q104 bus to 48th St and Queens Blvd. I would have to walk about 8 blocks, but as long as I would be on the other side of Sunnyside Yard, I would be happy.
Waiting for about 5 minutes, a young guy came up and asked me about the bus and the QBPZ closure. I was going to wait a while longer until the bus came, but he was getting impatient, and started to ask the passing car services how much it would be to 40th and Queens Blvd. I finally took out the bus map again and looked to the back for the individual lines schedule. Luckily I did this or I would have been waiting for the Q104 for a very very very long time. The Q104 had ceased to run at 11:00 pm, and it was already 11:30. So we ended up sharing a car service to 40th/Queens Blvd. I didn't really want to spend the $4 (each), but I didn't really see a better (and quicker) choice. So finally we arrive at 40th/Queens Blvd and get into my car and head home towards Flushing. I thought my worries were over, but I was soon to be let down again.
I headed up Queens Boulevard, and on to Roosevelt Boulevard to catch the BQE to head into the Grand Central Parkway. (I've come to avoid the entrance to the BQE right off of Queens Blvd as it is even more pothole ridden than off of Roosevelt!) As I'm coming around the curve and through the tunnel at the end of the BQE to merge into the Grand Central coming from the Triboro Bridge I think I'm home free! Obviously not as I see a wall of red rear lights on the Parkway. The DOT must have read my mind after mentioned to my dad about the "speed bumps" on the eastbound GCP right before the signs for the 94th Street exit. They were doing repair work which caused 5 lanes of traffice to merge into 1 *(#@&(*#@&(!@ lane! So 15 minutes later I sped off once I got past the merge.
It seems like the DOT was out in full force last night. Slightly further down the GCP the right two lanes were blocked off by the gas station, but it didn't cause any tie ups, as the road was clear after the bottleneck earlier. Finally, I got off the GCP on to the "Astoria Parkway" and then the terrible entrance/merge onto the Van Wyck/Whitestone Expressway over the Flushing River. As I got off of Linden Place, over on the service road, more DOT work going on. I finally got home at 12:30 after quite an adventure of a night! It could be worse, but it was still pretty bad.
Totally off-topic - there's a great Turkish restaurant, Hemsin, right near that corner - make sure to get the Lahmacun and lots of extra bread. And the ayran drink (salty of course). Mmmm, Turkish...
I'm glad I have more of an opportunity to eat Turkish food as I am 1/4 Turkish (Turkish-Jewish) from Izmir (Smyrna), and I guess another 1/4 Turkish if you count my ancestors from Thessalonika, Greece under the rule of the Ottoman Empire.
You can get the ayran sweet or salty - I prefer the salty, but the sweet's ok too. It's made from yogurt, which I guess to some people tastes bitter, so maybe we're just different that way.
And the bread is excellent - too bad I can't get them to deliver to my place on the UWS :(
15 minutes? Lucky.
Took me almost an hour and 1/3 tank of gas from the BQE to that merge Friday night. Totally retarded the way they suddenly blocked off the GCP instead of gradually reducing lanes.
Also what made it worse was that some idiot had an accident. I wonder how.
Bull poof? Isn't that what puts all the methane into the atmosphere?
Or maybe he meant a bull PROOF vest.
If one person is killed per week because the Police are too busy hassling photographers with the ban (admittedly a thin link, but bear with me)...
And 10 years from now the shootings go on unabated, the photoban is still in place, and we're all now thoroughly cowed...
And then South Carolina Christian Fundamentalist seperatists, with no prior knowledge of the NYCTA system (that is no pictures, no lurking on this site, nothing more than THE MAP and a proximity-read Metrocard in their pockets and a briefcase full of Semtex in their hand), explode several bombs on a crowded 2 train at Times Square, killing 500...
Then the photoban was really worth it wasn't it? :\
What I suggest is a camera system like the last great mayor of tampa installed in Ybor City. It has face recognition software and scans EVERYbody to a criminal database and looks for matches. The ACLU had it disabled here, but I figure with the rampant crime and higher lacking of personal freedoms up there, this thing should be a blast/success. I'm all for it.
1. Have the trolley start in Manhasset Isle, run up Shore Rd, Main St, 101, 25A, and Old Northern BLVD to the clock tower. Then, convert the N23 to all Harbor Rd runs. This would atleast give the section between Mill Pond and the PW LIRR station to trolley only service.
2. Convert entire N23 to trolley(definately not happening).
All in all, as great of an idea this is, I'm very skeptical about whether or not this will even be seriously considered.
When these business groups say "trolley" they mean the oversized open air vans whose bodies are built to look like trolleys. I consider them vans or trucks, not even buses or real trolleys, like streetcars and PCC's.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I was on a Philadelphia PCC fantrip a while ago and we had a photo stop on a bridge. After we reboarded, one of those retarded looking rubber tire trolleys was approaching us. All aboard erupted in boos and catcalls because we were riding the real thing.
I wonder if any of Bob Diamonds surplus PCCs may be considered or are we talking about a Gomaco replica ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Personally, I really like what they did to the old Bay st. station.
Off course what would a day be without a few incidents........Our ALP44 missed a cement truck stopped a tad to close to the tracks and of course a pax running under the gates to catch the NY local.
This is a four page fold-out brochure for the museum in Brooklyn, but it has a nose shot of PRR GG-1 #4907 as the front cover.
Why would the MTA use a picture of a GG-1 on a brochure for the transit museum?
I don't know why it was on the cover, but it's always good to see a G on the front of something. I wonder if there's any chance they might get a G for the Transit Museum? There might be a problem placing it in there, although they could cut it up and reassemble it, as they did after it plowed in Washington's Union Terminal.
: )
Mark
Mark
While some European cultures may still regard smoking as a sign of sophistication (though that's probably changing), in the United States it's increasingly seen as a sign of moral weakness.
Fortunately, there are some good signs. Want a Toyota Prius? Get in line and start saving. The waiting list is years long, and the dealer markup is pushing $5000.
Mark
A group of Atlantic City boosters organized a sesquicentennial train, using NJTransit Philadelphia to Atlantic City train #4611. Michael Doyle played the part of Dr Jonathan Pitney, "the father of Atlantic City", and organized the celebration. He got scant cooperation from NJT - two extra cars on train 4611 and NJT's South Jersey Superintendant (a good guy, formerly working public relations with SNJLRTS River Line) on board. NJT put out a press release Wednesday with Warrington taking credit for the celebration.
Dr Pitney, affable accordion player "Fingers" Cannoli, and a surfer met passengers in the main waiting room at 30th Street Station. The celebration started on the platform shortly before train time. Channel 6 was on the platform and the Inquirer was on the train.
I asked the conductor not to let the train leave Lindenwold without me while I jumped off to grab a quick photo. He obliged.
Cape May Seashore Lines general manager Tony Macrie boarded the train in Hammonton (where he's lived all his life), and "Fingers" Cannoli played "On the Way to Cape May" in honor of Tony.
Egg Harbor City presented the anniversary train with a proclamation when we stopped there.
The mayor of Absecon lead the celebration on the NJT platform.
After the train arrived in Atlantic City, the celebration continued inside the NJT terminal, with King Neptune giving out 150th anniversary T shirts to media and a few lucky railfans.
After the shindig ended, some of us walked the boardwalk and ate lunch at the Baltimore Grill, then a couple of us rode the celebratory trainset back to Lindenwold, where I got a photo of the engine and the five-car train before I took PATCO to Collingswood and walked home.
It’s a real pity George Warrington doesn’t have any sense of style. If he knew what was any good for him personally, and NJT in general, he would have been there, dressed up for the occasion, and getting the NJT press office publicizing the event for all its worth. Even get the Governor in on the act. I don’t know whether NJT could get hold of an appropriately old car for the occasion to tow behind a regular train, but this would be the time.
Anyway, the people on board the train had fun, even if the young lad in this photo looked a bit bemused!
Transit content: Collingswood, Westmont, and Haddonfield all have PATCO stations.
And, no problems, nobody said "You can't take pictures" and a good time was had by all.
Kudos to NJT for allowing the celebration to occur. There's been so much bad press about NJT, it's a good thing to allow events like this.
I've always found the AC line ads quite amusing as you have here, "Chauffer Driven." I also remember on the bridge over Rt 30? 70? "The Ultimate Off-Road Vehicle."
Rt 70
Koi
By CANDACE SMITH
Associated Press Writer
WASHINGTON (AP) - Metrorail stations can handle eight car trains, and there is less work involved than originally thought to get them into service, Metro officials are expected to tell board members Thursday.
The subway system was designed 28 years ago to accommodate the longer trains, and they ran briefly in the mid-1970s. But back then Metro officials said they had more time between trains to correct things if a train overshot the station.
"If you had some hiccups at that time, or even eight years ago or 10 years ago, you had some time to recover. Today, you don't have time for recovery," said P. Takis Salpeas, Metro's head of construction.
Eight car trains are 600 feet long - exactly the same length as Metro station platforms. It wasn't until a recent study that officials knew they could get the longer trains to stop within the platforms on a regular basis.
Last July, Metro's board approved a $3 million pilot project to test the stopping ability of eight car trains. Rail car manufacturer Alstom found Metro does not need to install more equipment on the tracks to get the trains to stop at the platform. Salpeas said the extra savings would be used to install new stopping software in at least 16 rail cars before next June.
Alstom also determined its software could overshoot or undershoot platforms by about 3.5 feet - a half foot more than Metro wanted. Officials said that's still acceptable, but if the trains overshoot a platform by 6.5 feet or more the doors won't open automatically. They figure that could happen at one station stop every three days, and if it does passengers in the first car will have to wait to get off at the next station during rush hour service.
"If you start backing up, (in) 10 minutes you got four trains in there that are starting to bunch," said Lemuel Proctor, Metro's outgoing head of rail operations.
All but 10 percent of the 950-rail car fleet will get the software upgrades. The 100 older model rail cars will have to wait until a scheduled 2012 overhaul.
There is no funding yet to upgrade the entire fleet. Officials have said they need $625 million for 120 rail cars, rail yard expansions and power upgrades to run longer trains. Metro's board agreed in April to spend $22 million in engineering upgrades for power and rail yard capacity, but it has to decide in October whether to buy 50 rail cars. If not, Metro officials have predicted a two year delay in starting eight car trains, which would mean even more overcrowded conditions.
Metro officials said if they get the requested funding, longer trains will be in service by the end of 2006, with one running every five trains during rush hours. They hope to have eight car trains in about half of the stations by 2008.
Metro officials are studying where to put the longer trains. The Orange and Green lines are the most congested now, according to Metro. Board members would have to make a decision on which lines would get the cars by June 2006 because of train operators' scheduling, Proctor said.
Incredible.
Not that this might happen, but that it’s considered acceptable.
Priceless!
A well trained operator will have the feel of how at train should stop under automatic control. Knowing this profile he/she can stop the train before it over shoot the platform. I have been on trains where the operator hit the plunger (Emergence Stop Button) to keep the train from over running the station.
John
Aren't these trains CBTC control (or so I thought)? This gives new meaning to the term WTFMATA! As far as the driver using foul language, I think he saw the writing on the wall.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
David
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
There is in fact a manual override. There is a stop button on the console. I addressed this in post 733220
John
No need for the extra 10’ With all of the hardware maintained both train board and way side to proper specification the berthing of the train should not be a problem.
Most of you may be to young to remember when 8 car trains were common practice, WMATA put green markers on the platforms and on the walls beyond the platforms. These markers let the operator know that all of the door were on the platform even if the train over shot or under shot the platform but not so far that the first or last door was beyond the end of the platform. Some of these green markers still exist.
The track circuit used to determine that the train is berth at the platform is 600’ long. Both ends of the train must be within this track circuit so way side train control can receive a train berth signal from both ends of the train. If the train to wayside antenna on the first or last car is beyond the boundary of the track circuit wayside control will only receive a train berth signal from one only end of the train and will not transmit a door open command to the train.
There is another solution that I don’t know if anybody thought of, mind you I don’t even know if it will work without compromising safety. Lengthen the platform track circuit by 10’ to 12’.
John
Slightly related note: Market-Fankford Line trains tend to FREQUENTLY overshoot the platform (If you're ever up here on one (or a BSS train) and hear the "triple horn" as the train slows down in the station or after it stops, that signal indicates the train needs to back up to get the doors all within the space of the platform length, as one has overshot the station), but they simply back up a bit to get the door where it needs to be. And the MFL has about equal frequencies to WMATA.
This would compromising one of the most important safety protocols designed in to the train control system. Disabling the train birthed acknowledged command would allow all of the door to be opened anywhere along the main line when the train is stopped. One less layer of the protections of safety. Also disabling the train birthed acknowledged command would eliminate the capability of opening the doors automatically when the train is properly birthed at a platform.
During the first few months of operation some of these protection were disabled just to keep the bug redden trains running. I can vividly recall as if it happened yesterday being on one of the 6 car trains that was run on opening day 03 27 1976 with a full load stopping at Farragut North. After opening the doors on the left on the Shady Grove bound side of the platform for some reason the doors opened on the right side. I was standing next to the right side doors when it happened. I stuck my head out the door an looked both ways. Luckily no one took that long step out of the train on to the grating on the florescent light trough.
John
A lot of people don’t understand that if the crowd is at one location on a given platform they will end up on a crowded car of a train that might have empty seats in other cars. Some use the system enough to know better and some a very small minority even know to board the car of the train that is closest to platform exit escalator / stair at the station they are going to.
John
Perhaps the T/O should be stationed at the middle of the train, so that he can see the rear of the train just as well as he can see the front. Do we really need the T/O to be up front on an OPTO train? I'd think cameras and other systems would do just fine in a modern railroad without the prejudices and practices of older, more established systems, such as NYC and Philly.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
In the newest ones, there is a LED sign at each end inside. I've always seen it say merely "GREEN" or "RED". Recently I was on a Green Line to Greenbelt (it should be my daughter's nickname since she's at UMD), and the sign actually said different things. They finally programmed at least one train to do what Philadelphia's trains have been doing for 4 years now.
It said, for example:
(While doors are open) GREEN
(As it's moving along) COLUMBIA HTS
(Just when you look up in the tunnel to see what's the next station)
<<<
so you know the doors open on the left.
Then as soon as the doors open, it switches back to: GREEN
It would seem to me that they could alternate the station name and those nearly invisible arrows, so you know what you are looking at. It is not clear that the arrows mean the doors are opening on the left, but when I got off at Greenbelt, and after the train shifted to the other side of the platform before entering the terminal, there were >>> arrows showing. Now if only it could say LAST STOP or EVERYONE EXIT, so people would know it's the end of the line...
But at least they didn't pay all that money just to have it say GREEN (it just seems that way).
Go Terps!! I enjoyed my time at UMD. : )
Ben F. Schumin :-)
RUmor: 7 express will run untill 10:45, but first they have to see what is going to happen with the current fleet in the upcoming months.
YTF is this necessary?
Pelham Exp goes to bed just after 7...
Incredible.
Not that this might happen, but that it’s considered acceptable.
Priceless!
A well trained operator will have the feel of how at train should stop under automatic control. Knowing this profile he/she can stop the train before it over shoot the platform. I have been on trains where the operator hit the plunger (Emergence Stop Button) to keep the train from over running the station.
John
Aren't these trains CBTC control (or so I thought)? This gives new meaning to the term WTFMATA! As far as the driver using foul language, I think he saw the writing on the wall.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
David
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
There is in fact a manual override. There is a stop button on the console. I addressed this in post 733220
John
No need for the extra 10’ With all of the hardware maintained both train board and way side to proper specification the berthing of the train should not be a problem.
Most of you may be to young to remember when 8 car trains were common practice, WMATA put green markers on the platforms and on the walls beyond the platforms. These markers let the operator know that all of the door were on the platform even if the train over shot or under shot the platform but not so far that the first or last door was beyond the end of the platform. Some of these green markers still exist.
The track circuit used to determine that the train is berth at the platform is 600’ long. Both ends of the train must be within this track circuit so way side train control can receive a train berth signal from both ends of the train. If the train to wayside antenna on the first or last car is beyond the boundary of the track circuit wayside control will only receive a train berth signal from one only end of the train and will not transmit a door open command to the train.
There is another solution that I don’t know if anybody thought of, mind you I don’t even know if it will work without compromising safety. Lengthen the platform track circuit by 10’ to 12’.
John
Slightly related note: Market-Fankford Line trains tend to FREQUENTLY overshoot the platform (If you're ever up here on one (or a BSS train) and hear the "triple horn" as the train slows down in the station or after it stops, that signal indicates the train needs to back up to get the doors all within the space of the platform length, as one has overshot the station), but they simply back up a bit to get the door where it needs to be. And the MFL has about equal frequencies to WMATA.
This would compromising one of the most important safety protocols designed in to the train control system. Disabling the train birthed acknowledged command would allow all of the door to be opened anywhere along the main line when the train is stopped. One less layer of the protections of safety. Also disabling the train birthed acknowledged command would eliminate the capability of opening the doors automatically when the train is properly birthed at a platform.
During the first few months of operation some of these protection were disabled just to keep the bug redden trains running. I can vividly recall as if it happened yesterday being on one of the 6 car trains that was run on opening day 03 27 1976 with a full load stopping at Farragut North. After opening the doors on the left on the Shady Grove bound side of the platform for some reason the doors opened on the right side. I was standing next to the right side doors when it happened. I stuck my head out the door an looked both ways. Luckily no one took that long step out of the train on to the grating on the florescent light trough.
John
A lot of people don’t understand that if the crowd is at one location on a given platform they will end up on a crowded car of a train that might have empty seats in other cars. Some use the system enough to know better and some a very small minority even know to board the car of the train that is closest to platform exit escalator / stair at the station they are going to.
John
Perhaps the T/O should be stationed at the middle of the train, so that he can see the rear of the train just as well as he can see the front. Do we really need the T/O to be up front on an OPTO train? I'd think cameras and other systems would do just fine in a modern railroad without the prejudices and practices of older, more established systems, such as NYC and Philly.
Click Here To View
(Tested and Viewed in Window's Media Player, Don't know if it works in any other video medium)
Enjoy!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.info
Trevor
Your pal,
Speed
Chuck Greene
til next time
A 20 year old man leaned over the edge of the platform and got nailed in the head by a train. He's now in serious condition at the hospital. Hopefully he will be okay and is now a little wiser. What happened to common sense? Is it being transferred to another life form? I wonder how that affected service.
Matt
We had one of these in NYC not too long ago. IIRC it happened on a 34th Street Platform either on the 7th or 8th Avenue Lion. As you know there, express trains in both directions use the same platform.
I suspect the dude saw a northbound train across the platform, assumed it was a local and was looking down the "express" track to see if a train was coming before making up his mind to board the first.
Well a train *was* coming, but it was coming from the direction that he wasn't looking and so clopped him.
Anyway, since the Chicago incident happened at the ballpark one might well presume that the goose did not know which wat the train was running and so got himself clopped in the back of the head.
Expect a Train at any time on any track in any direction.
Elias
Ben F. Schumin :-)
In the newest ones, there is a LED sign at each end inside. I've always seen it say merely "GREEN" or "RED". Recently I was on a Green Line to Greenbelt (it should be my daughter's nickname since she's at UMD), and the sign actually said different things. They finally programmed at least one train to do what Philadelphia's trains have been doing for 4 years now.
It said, for example:
(While doors are open) GREEN
(As it's moving along) COLUMBIA HTS
(Just when you look up in the tunnel to see what's the next station)
<<<
so you know the doors open on the left.
Then as soon as the doors open, it switches back to: GREEN
It would seem to me that they could alternate the station name and those nearly invisible arrows, so you know what you are looking at. It is not clear that the arrows mean the doors are opening on the left, but when I got off at Greenbelt, and after the train shifted to the other side of the platform before entering the terminal, there were >>> arrows showing. Now if only it could say LAST STOP or EVERYONE EXIT, so people would know it's the end of the line...
But at least they didn't pay all that money just to have it say GREEN (it just seems that way).
Go Terps!! I enjoyed my time at UMD. : )
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Your opinions are, as always, welcome and encouraged.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
I have an internal WMATA document on a different subject that gives the impression that the Rohr cars will be rehabilitated at least once more before they are retired.
The document talks about optimum train consist size for load levels at different times of the day, The running of two car trains is never mentioned in the document. The document was prepared to set a "Quality of Service" policy for WMATA metrorail. I will mark up the text of document to HTML and post for all to see.
John
Peace,
ANDEE
Nah... he only dealt with the possible sex acts.
Of course he had a *different* name for them,
To quote Heston...it's gonna be a "maaaaaaadhouse, a maaaaaaadhouse"
www.forgotten-ny.com
http://www.nynewsday.com/news/local/crime/nyc-slip0702,0,5636312,print.story?coll=nyc-homepage-headlines
"Just relax, we're helping you," one of the emergency workers told him.
As they took him off to the black heliocopters.
: )
If you're standing on a crisscross panel, chances are if the gibbler is in motion,
IT WILL TAKE YOU ALONG with it...
I doubt any of us have feet small enough to fit on only 1 panel.
I was wondering what had happened, and how they were planning on running D service over the bridge? I guess they diverted it over the F or A into Jay Street. Anyone know how long the disruption lasted?
Peace,
ANDEE
Robert
Peace.
ANDEE
Robert
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
In Helmetta, New Jersey, there is an old, historic Snuff Mill, formerly of the Helme company, which gave the town its name, and now the town wants to tear it down! This, in spite of the factory's being the centerpiece of Helmetta. This, in spite of the fact that it has loomed large as a landmark in town.
Why? Because they want to build houses for retirees!
Nothing wrong with building retiree housing. (We have several retirement communities - err, "active adult communities" is the going term those days - in neighboring Monroe, defraying our school taxes.) However, to tear down the whole thing, to throw away a ton of history for the sake of lower taxes, is that really the best thing to do? I think not. History is a precious thing, Helmetta, it shouldn't be squandered simply because you want to pander housing to a bunch of time-honored people.
Work on the mill site was delegated by the town to the current owners of the mill, some firm called Helmetta Lenape LLC, the other day, and the mill hasn't been used in ten years. I'd use the older parts mill as some sort of entertainment and arts center, while tearing down the newer parts (we don't need the WHOLE barn, we just need to preserve the flavor and history of Helmetta).
Some have proposed that the mill be annexed to the Jamesburg Park that lies behind the mill; the park is a Middlesex County preserve and its name is odd, as the town of Jamesburg is on the OTHER side of Helmetta (well, with a wad of Monroe Twp. sticking in between). I'm all for such a proposal. Heck, why not try running passenger trains to it as a destination? (Yes, this is a slap in the face to the opponents of the MOM rail line.)
We have an enormous "Pennsylvania Station" here in Helmetta, and, once again, the forces of Progress want to lay it to waste. That's sad.
Sincerely,
Maybe if you're lucky, the mill's haunted and the ghost will be pissed at a bunch of old folks living there. ;)
NEW YORK (AP) -- A man was shot twice in the face on a New York City subway platform, the fifth shooting on the city's transit system in just over a month.
The 23-year-old victim was in serious but stable condition after the Thursday night shooting on a Manhattan-bound platform in the borough of Queens, police said.
Police were looking for one shooter, a man, according to Detective Eric Crisafi, a police spokesman.
It was unclear what sparked the shooting or where the victim had been going when he was wounded.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/Northeast/07/02/subway.shooting.ap/index.html
As for Iranian Security Personnel photographing the #7 line, most here on subtalk would find this as perfectly acceptable. They were probably looking for some ideas for the Tehran O gauge model RR club layout so their MTH R-12s won't look out of place in the sand.
You cannot.
These people are in the country only because they are attached to the Iran Mission to the UN. Otherwise they would not be permitted into the country at all. (Or so the story line goes)
We ought to treat them as any other guest to our country, but we do not have to, and we can PNG them on any trumped up charge that we would like.
That being said, I agree with you. Let them take all the pictures that they want. We should be bigger than all of the pettyness. Let them click away.
Elias
If the person doing the photography is a representative of the Islamic Republic of Iran, then it's improper.
UN diplomatic personnel from unfriendly countries are confined to a 25-mile radius of NYC. I don't know if there are any restrictions on their activities and/or movement within that radius.
What can be done about this, as good citizens to eliminate these awful and deadly occurances? I can only imagine the terror that must have resulted for any innocent bystanders.
Does anyone have some meaningful ideas?
Or are we just at risk? Or is this just a sign of the times?
I wish I knew that answer myself.
Have a Happy and Safe July 4th Everyone.
Your friend
Greg
As Archie Bunker once put it...
"Want to stop all the high jacking on airplanes?...Give ever passenger a gun before they get on the plane"
Just kidding....
Happy Holidays JPC.........
Greg
It doesn't scare me, I'll be doing massive amounts of railfanning this month.
I was interested to see this computer generated sketch of what the R 142 subway cars would look like. I had never seen this before. The roof contours looks to me a little like a London tube train.
http://www.railway-technology.com/projects/new_york/new_york5.html
You can see the entire article with a lot of photos by clicking on the link at the bottom of the photo.
--Mark
-Broadway Buffer
Have a good Fourth
Here's a link an explanation of the technology and a
chance to see how it works.
http://www.urbanmapping.com/technology.html
And the only train service not running on weekends unduplicated by a weekend train is the V between 5th Avenue and Rockefeller Center. Then a separate map is unneeded.
That shows mid day service and it is closer to the weekend than the regular map with rush hour services.
Also what is the difference between the 7 and 11 lines?
Just use the regular map and ignore the B, M (except north of Myrtle), V, W, Z, and 9. The N runs local in Manhattan (north of Canal), and all 5, 6, and 7 trains run local in the Bronx and Queens. That covers all the important stuff.
Then remember to check the service advisories (online or posted in the stations—online has more details), since there will be changes.
In other words - don't take pictures.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Railfan photography isn't covered by the freedom of speech because that mainly protects people's right to criticize the government, as well as talk about stuff. The freedom of press thing is possibly applicable to railfanning, but we aren't really reporting anything. The president is breaking the freedom of press by not allowing certain aspects of the war to be photographed, and also that incident with Anton Scalia a few weeks ago.
So therefore, unfortunately, as much as we dislike it, government can ban railfan photography, for it would be constitutional to do so. Although one can argue that railfanning is their religion, or some silly thing like that, and make a railfanning religion that the government would try to ban, but can't, since that would truly be unconstitutional.
BTW, all of this sucks and I'd like to press the rewind button to the year 2000, and get Gore to do more campaigning in his home state, then rewind to 1998, when the CIA launched cruise missiles at al-Qaeda camps, and change the coordinates so that they strike al-Qaeda HQ, then this whole mess would be avoided...
No it wouldn't. Al-Qaeda is effectively a myth anyway. I'm not saying that there aren't terrorists who call themselves members of Al-Qaeda, but it's not really a hierarchical organization that would collapse with the death of its leader. These people hate America Bin Laden or not.
As a railfan I think a photo ban would be wrong-minded. I enjoy videotaping and photographing my cab rides. On the other hand, the TA's mission statement does refer to SAFE transportation and it's for the agency to determine what is needed to keep the majority of riders (who are not railfans) safe. If they determine that banning photography under narrow circumstances is prudent then it's their judgement.
Photography is not the only aspect to railfanning. Obviously some people consider Skylarking or surfing to be part of railfanning. Other railfans think that exploring tunnels, changing side signs, or tagging or even stealing a train is what railfanning is all about. Common sense dictates that if you can ban tagging or tunnel exploration as unacceptable forms of railfanning, why can't photography be equally subjectively banned. Clearly it can be but equally clearly it hasn't been to this point. If and when it is, we'll still have other ways to enjoy our hobby. Even if it is 'banned', most of us will still be able to enjoy it simply by getting a permit. Try getting a permit to photograph in Rikers Island.
Obviously though, there are some issues that I haven't seen discussed as far as this goes that might be of interest to those planning to address this issue. Obviously, commercial photography "customers" would be able to obtain a permit and credentials. I don't however see any particular interest in granting "hobbyist" permits from what I've read. But even IF the agency will be granting those, there's something folks are missing here ...
State agencies are permitted (nay, ENCOURAGED) to charge a FEE for any paperwork of any kind if paperwork is to be done, even more so if it results in some form of certificate. One of the questions I don't see being raised is what kind of *FEE* will be charged for this transaction, amounting to a "railfan tax" ... will it prohibit inner city kids from pursuing one of the less expensive "hobbies?"
I agree with you that a ban/permit requirement would almost certainly be upheld in the courts.
I would add that as a New Yorker who doesn't take pictures in the subway I think the ban would be wrong-minded. There is no conceivable way that a ban (or permit requirement) would improve security. It would give NYC even more of a bad name than it already has as a bureaucratic place that makes money by giving summonses to innocent tourists.
It would also make MTA management look very foolish, which is also bad for New York. Lots of people will realize that the ban is a way to look like you're doing something about terrorism without actually providing any substance.
Actually doing something to make the subways safe from terrorism without making them unusuable is an incredibly difficult, unglamorous, and unnoticed task. The MTA seems to be propsing an easy route to look effective without necessarily being effective.
Do you know something the rest of us don’t? I’ve seen no indications that permits will actually be available to the general public.
It also introduces an administrative burden on the TA which does not enhance the security of the subways - and will create a budget hole that DHS will not necessarily fill with federal dollars.
Having said that, I should add that there is merit in your previous post. If the TA is sensible, it will minimize the inconvenience to the rail buffs.
Incidentally, rail buffs (not the ones in the minority who trash trains, jump turnstiles or threaten public safety) are good for the TA. They ride frequently, buy MetroCards, encourage other people to ride and even advocate for the TA when hearings come up. The TA should indulge them where possible because they are allies of the agency.
How about the experience of the last two years, when one or more NYCT spokespeople have said that the MTA does require permits for photography but isn't issuing any. Surely that is a suggestion (though by no means a guarantee) of policy to come.
Are you truly 100% confident that the MTA WILL issue permits if the proposal goes through?
To qualify, you need to locate the exact location of this mezzanine.
YAY!! I win......... wtf is the prize, anyways? lol
Fulton Street Complex (being rebuilt)
Atlantic Avenue (the whole 2-3-4-5 train gig)
Bergen St. Lower (you're always giddy over it)
Entrance to Heypaul's.... ?
You have to come up with a shocking answer for this one. And I was giddy over Bergen St because neither of the two stations has a mezzanine. (Remember 95th st on "NY Underground"?)
Fulton Street J/M/Z "the 1am Saturday" sign place?
The estimated cost is now $42 million. "We've already spent $13 million. To abandon the plan at this point is not practical."
Some people call that "throwing good money after bad."
I do have problems with their plan. For example I don't understand why they're restricting themselves to 8 passengers per tram car. It seems to me that the Roosevelt Island Tram carrys more than that, and that seems possibly like what they should be aiming for. A larger tram car would likely be cheaper to operate in the long run, and might allow lower fares without subsidization. Of course then you face the prospect of unloading and loading a tram car carrying perhaps 50 people in the minute or two between cars, RI Tram has it easy since the trams do not share the same wire. I also think their ticket prices are wildly expensive, it'd be nice to see $1.25 or so prices, that might get commuters to use it. However that'd likely require a subsidy from somewhere, be it the government, the developer or the property owners. If development continues along the Camden Waterfront, then the value of such a system would only grow. With a monthly ticket I could see people commuting from Old City and the Apartments on the water to places like L3 and other companies that will presumably move in, as well as people commuting from the Nipper Building to Center City. Ideally the tram might take a Transpass, thereby eliminating the need for multiple tickets, but we all know that's too much to hope for.
Besides, in addition to 13 million dollars you have two massive piers out there on either side of the river, it looks ridiculous right now, as if they're abandoned battlements from a war that was never fought.
One of the best perks at L3 was the real Philadelphia soft pretzels all connected together to be broken apart that they sold in the cafeteria, though they always were sold out by 10 AM. Now THAT's looking after your employees.
And to think there are groups in other cities that file lawsuits to halt LRT construction after they spend 20-30x that much.
What type of ariel tram are they talking about. One like in NY or one like a ski lift? :)
If you or somebody wants to be on TV to talk about the 100 years in Transit with the trains and service go to this site
http://www.wnbc.com/mta/3395637/detail.html
I guess he didn't read the "Post Message-Click Once" warning :-)
Once upon a time there was this New Yorker who always wanted to work for the subway, he did, he wrote a book and now he lives out West.
Everyone awoke.
Now what? Another shooting?
Did they stop teaching grammar, punctuation and sentence structure in schools?
By Lyndsey Layton
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, July 2, 2004; Page B01
Metro's top manager said yesterday that he will monitor conditions in subway stations on weeknights after 10, when Metro is trying to save money by running shorter trains, and will restore longer trains if crowding is a problem.
"If it requires us to keep all or part of the system at four-car trains instead of breaking them down [into two-car trains], that's what we'll have to do," Metro Chief Executive Richard A. White said.
White made those comments as complaints from the public poured in to the transit system and a Metro board member questioned the wisdom of the new policy.
This week, Metro cut the length of trains in half, from four cars to two, on every line after 10 p.m. Sunday through Thursday. Metro expects the plan will save $1 million a year in reduced electrical, labor and maintenance costs.
White said Metro workers will count the number of passengers boarding trains after 10 p.m. next week. He said he would restore the four-car trains if the stations were busy and if short trains would mean some passengers would be left on platforms.
That was exactly the condition Tuesday night at the Metro Center Station between 10:30 and 11 p.m.
Passengers were unable to squeeze onto jammed Orange and Blue Line trains and had to wait 15 to 20 minutes to try to board the next train. Many riders mentioned ruefully that the trains shrank the same week Metro began charging higher fares and fees.
"We're paying more and getting less," said Donald Center, 23, of Centreville.
Since the policy took effect, it has created a late Metro crunch, especially on the heavily traveled Red Line in downtown Washington. At the Farragut North, Metro Center, Gallery Place-Chinatown and Union Station stops, angry crowds have found themselves competing for space on the late trains.
The crowding has caused some schedule delays, and several riders complained about missing connections to buses. By the time her two-car Blue Line train reached the Addison Road-Seat Pleasant Station stop on Monday, Karen Hayes had missed the last C26 bus of the night. She and a friend had to spend $15 on a cab ride home. "The train was, like, 10 minutes late," said Hayes, 38. "The bus was completely gone."
The cuts come as local governments and businesses in the District, Bethesda and Arlington are promoting nightlife.
By yesterday afternoon, Metro had received 118 complaints about the short trains, an unusually high number. Some came from riders who said they had to let one or two go past before they could board.
"People are being excluded from our trains," D.C. Council member Jim Graham (D-Ward 1), who represents the District on the Metro board, said during a Metro meeting yesterday. "It's the antithesis of what we want. We're leaving them on the platforms. This was not our intention. I want a quick analysis of the seriousness of this problem."
As they debated the future of two-car trains, Metro directors also heard a progress report from Metro staff members about the prospects for operating eight-car trains.
The subway was built to operate eight-car trains, but Metro has never had enough rail cars to run trains that long. Instead, it runs a mix of four- and six-car trains during the peak periods. A crowded six-car train can handle 720 riders; an eight-car train has room for 960.
To run eight-car trains during peak hours, Metro would have to buy 120 rail cars, upgrade its power system and expand its rail yards at a cost of about $625 million.
Metro managers said recent tests delivered good news: The transit system doesn't have to install additional equipment along the tracks to make sure the longer trains stop in the right spots in the stations consistently.
Board members must decide by October whether to exercise an option on Metro's most recent rail car contract and order 50 additional subway cars. If they do, eight-car trains could run by 2006, White said.
They should hold last busses of the night which are scheduled to depart in conjunction with train arrivals if the trains are late. Just good customer service.
Simpson St closing.
I also see the swipers will have a field day at that station too.
This is strange because there is entry and exit access to the Uptown side, but not for the disabled.
Full details available at www.gravtran.com.
Mark
I have a picture of new kind of car I drew as a child, with a motor hooked up to a generator. Since generators were more powerful than motors, I figured there had to be enough left over to run the car.
Ever since then, engineering types have been telling me, and the cold fusion people, that we were out of luck. We were just looking in the wrong place. On a train, anything is possible.
What does purpetual motion have to do with a train gliding downhill? Isn't that what gravtrain is? Gravity, going downhill. And then how do you get it to go back up the hill? Is this used just for express runs down the hill? Or does it store the energy like a wind-up toy to go back up it?
Mark
They should hold last busses of the night which are scheduled to depart in conjunction with train arrivals if the trains are late. Just good customer service.
WASHINGTON (July 2) - A federal appeals court ruled Friday that Amtrak employees can't walk off the job to protest what they call chronic government underfunding of the passenger railroad.
Members of unions representing 8,000 of Amtrak's 21,000 employees said in October they'd call a work stoppage because Congress and the Bush administration wouldn't give the railroad enough money. Such an action could have affected intercity passenger service as well as commuter trains in some major cities.
The unions argued that the law banning strikes doesn't apply to the proposed walkout because it would be a political action that had nothing to do with negotiations over pay or working conditions.
The court disagreed, noting that Amtrak unions are engaged in negotiation or mediation with the railroad over new contracts.
"Call it a political protest rather than a strike; no matter," the court said, adding that federal law prohibits a strike as well as any union tactic that "has the consequences of a strike."
Amtrak lost its initial lawsuit in federal court to prevent the walkout. The unions agreed that they wouldn't do anything until a higher court ruled on the railroad's appeal.
Since then, Congress gave Amtrak $600 million less than the $1.8 billion that the railroad's president said it needed for 2004. President Bush had proposed giving Amtrak about half of what it wanted.
Douglas Ginsburg, chief judge of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit, wrote that the amount that Congress gives to Amtrak determines how much it can pay its employees.
"We think it clear that, insofar as the subject matter of the unions' proposed strike is the level of congressional appropriations for Amtrak, the strike does 'grow out of' the major dispute between Amtrak and the unions over the formation of new collective bargaining agreements concerning, among other things, rates of pay and working conditions," Ginsburg wrote.
For the budget year starting in October, Amtrak asked for $1.798 billion. Bush proposed giving the railroad $900 million.
On the Net:
Amtrak: http://www.amtrak.com
07/02/04 11:47 EDT
Copyright 2004 The Associated Press. The information contained in the AP news report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or otherwise distributed without the prior written authority of The Associated Press. All active hyperlinks have been inserted by AOL.
Right! This would allow for NJ Transit to finally run ON TIME (as long as the engines don't die due to the deplorable maintenace)!
'Tain't so McGee!
AMTK runs NYP
0 AMTK = 0 NYP
0 NYP = Shitsandwhich on NJT
:(
Two of the tracks would get the E train to the Court St. station, that is now used by the Transit Museum. The C and E would run this way, and use the currently abandoned outside tracks of the Hoyt-Schermerhorn station. There would be a new station at the tip of Manhattan. In addition, I envision the E train running down the Franklin Avenue ROW (which would have to be modified) and down the Brighton Line as a local, terminating at Ocean Avenue.
Two of the tunnels tracks would connect to the Second Avenue Subway. In Brooklyn, it would run under, but not stop at, the IND Court St. station. There would be a new four track, two platform lower level at Hoyt-Schermerhorn. The SAS would stop here.
The last two tracks would connect to Whitehall Street, allowing the W train to travel to Brooklyn in this new tunnel, and also hook up to a future lower level of the Nassau Street Loop, which would connect to the express tracks at Chambers Street. These two tunnel tracks would run under the IND Court Street station, without stopping, and it have a stop at the new lower level of Hoyt Schermerhorn
From the new lower level of Hoyt Schermerhorn, two tracks would continue to eventually connect with the LIRR's Atlantic Terminal. This would allow the implementation of the RPA's recomendation, from their Rx plan, of using the Atlantic Avenue line. Also, two tracks would continue to a future lower level of the Fourth Avenue BMT line to Staten Island. This would be a four track line, with stops at Pacific Street, and 59th Street before heading to St. George.
Also, two tracks would be built, between the upper level local and express tracks of the Fulton Street line, that would connect to the lower level.
Thoughts?
There is a short six-track tunnel in Queens (of sorts) - under Northern Blvd, until the 63rd St ramps then rise and merge with the other four tracks.
Good, creative idea for subtalk, but probably will not happen in our lifetime because of $$$, politics, and bureacratic red tape.
I believe in the econometric analysis of presidential politics, which means that Bush will probably be reelected. 2006 could be the year that Charlie Rangle assumes the Ways & Means throne.
The only problem with your plan is: From the new lower level of Hoyt Schermerhorn, two tracks would continue to eventually connect with the LIRR's Atlantic Terminal. This would allow the implementation of the RPA's recomendation, from their Rx plan, of using the Atlantic Avenue line.
This gets you an automatic "Bzzzt", as Subway and LIRR aren't (legally, at least) compatible, so that would mean no LIRR to Atlantic Terminal, and that just ain't gonna happen unless Pataki has some sort of magical plan up his sleeve ("Yes, Yes, Young William, the AirTrain/Subway will just hover slightly above the LIRR... - we will call it 'FRA approved Phase-Dimensional-Separation'")
R-32.
The idea good, but at the same time total fantasy. It would not at all be possible. Not just financially, but it would just not be possible to build. Plus, do you really think it would be useful, or would it just be throwing money in the garbage?
********************************************************************
I had an idea I thought up a few years ago an A-Division 2nd Ave Subway idea. An (8) & <8>. (8) would go from the (6) & <6> in the Bronx, Exp replacing <6>. Then after 3 Ave it will go along 2 Ave to 2 St where it will switch over to Allen St. (<8> would cut in from Roosevelt Island and run Exp. Then will go along there and stop at E Bway and then go over the Manhattan Bridge and terminating on a new platform at Atlantic Ave.
I think that might make a little more sense and be a little more useful.
-Broadway Buffer
Have a good Fourth
If its possible to pull of such a proposal, and keep the Transit Museum intact, that would be great. Rather than a station at Court Street, there could be a station at Atlantic Avenue, perhaps closer to the water.
Also, as much as I love it, I would never let the Transit Museum dictate the evolution of the Subway System. That's the tail wagging the dog. The museum can always be moved.
Where can they move it to? Any other abandoned stations that are in good enough condition to have the Transit Museum moved to it?
Here are all the abandoned stations:
City Hall
Worth
18 ST
91 ST
Myrtle
Sedgwick
Jerome
Cortland
Tell me which one to move the Transit Museum to. Looks to me like none of the above are possibe, but you give me your opinions.
-Broadway Buffer
Have a good Fourth
Why not the lower level of 9th Avenue in Brooklyn? Three tracks, none in revenue service. There's even some area outside of the portals to build an additional structure (such as a museum building and/or street entrance), or to extend the station itself, in order to display more cars.
And it'd be good for the neighborhood. Even if the present museum dosen't close I would like to see this happen. As a secondary museum it could possibly offer a more intense look at Brooklyns transit history. Call it the Brooklyn Annex.
-Broadway Buffer
Happy Fourth
And even if there was no plan to bring back a Culver Exp, Bergen lower level would still cost way too much to repair. Plus, u really need an island platform for a transit museum, not w/ trains on 2 different sides.
-Broadway Buffer
Well at least we will not need to worry about that scheme.
Of course *I* have my own scheme for six new tracks to Brooklyn, but it has absolutely NOTHING to do with existing lions.
We already have a Cranberry Tunnel,
I propose to add a Pineapple Tunnel and an Orange Tunnel.
The Pineapple tunnel is a four track/two level tunnel handling local and express trains from my new Myrtle-fifth Avenue Subway, and the Orange Tunnel Takes some local trains from both 5th Avenue and 9th avenue and runs them LOCAL on Fulton Street via the old Court Street tracks, however they come up Camden Place and miss the existing Transit Museum which is unaffected by this construction.
The Fulton Local tracks are then removed from the existing subway system and are exclusivly the use of the Local trains via the Orange Tunnel. This is because these trains use high speed technology and liner induction motors, and are not compatible with the older system.
This line is extended to Cross bay Blvd via 76th Street & etc.
Express Trains on The Fulton Line include the (A) to Lefferts the (E) to JFK and the Rockaways.
Rational: Existing Trunk Lines are FULL : Additional service is needed in the outlying areas. New Service needs new crossing and new trunks.
Elias
In two of my NYCT scenarios, I have a similar arrangement with the E train serving a new lower level of the Court Street Station (the transit museum, also allowing it to serve the outer tracks at Hoyt-Schemerhorn. In my main scenario, E service accesses Court Street from a "new route" south of WTC, where it proceeds via a lower level that continues southward beneath the current A and C Chambers STreet Station. In one of my alternate scenarios, E servcie connects to Court STreet and Hoyt-Schemerhorn via a more longer routing:
E service would proceed southbound via the Worth Street Connnector as per IND Second System plans, proceed into Brooklyn in Williamsburgh, through the South 4th STreet STation, and then proceed southwest towards Downtown Brooklyn via Myrtle Avenue, until it reaches an abrupt curve at Flatbush AVenue, bringing the tunnel under Tillary Street, following by a brief south trek down Clinton STreet, before turning east along Schemerhorn Street, to the lower level Court Street Station.
In both scenarios, southbound E service then proceeds downgrade via a short slightly seprentine tunnel that connects to the BMT Dekalb Avenue Station, and from there has access to the BMT Southern Division.
The BMT Southern Division alread has enough service (un less you are planning for the bridge to fall)... in any event the (E) and other existing trains are not needed there.
I suggest STOP trying to connect to existing stuff. THAT IS ALREADY SATURATED! Show me how you would build a whole NEW service.
Elias
I believe you can find plenty of information on that at the mta's website, section Capital Construction, Second Avenue Subway, newest file. Not that it means that the line - sorry, lion - will actually be built - ehhrrmmm, conceived, that is - since lots and lots of money - ...no, I'm not even going there ;-) - is required.
Connecting the E train to the Brighton Line, via the Fulton Street Line, would probably use a new 2 track subway under the Franlin ROW. The elevated Franklin Avenue and Park Place stations would be replaced, and the Botanic Garden station would need its platforms lengthened. The Prospect Park station would need little, if any major modifications.
So I would have the E and 2nd Av. on Fulton, The A replace the B as the primary Brighton Exp. (like they had wanted to do years ago, but it would still be 8th Av.) The C would b replace the M on the West End. The M would move to 95th. The B and C could then be rush hour specials. With the new cars, the B, C and D would use the same equipment, so they could swap back to their old terminals uptown. Middays, the B from 168 would have to terminate somewhere. Or the Q might wind up becoming the rush hour special. Weekends, I haven't decided yet.
Or the flipside; C, D and Q on Brighton, and A and B on West End.
More realistically, you would probably send only one 8th Av. service through DeKalb. The other then could stay on Fulton allowing one line each for Euclid, Lefferts and Rockaway.
The Airtrain/LIRR proposal already contemplates shared use with the subway. It isn't going to be 4 or 6 tubes, which you cannot justify. None of the existing East River subway crossings is more than 2 tubes. If they build this thing at all, it will be 2 tubes.
Secondly, do the Staten Island residents really want a tunnel to Brooklyn, then have to travel on the 4th Ave. line to Manhattan? If you're going to build a tunnel from Staten Island, connect it to either the J/M/Z at Broad, the N/R/W at Whitehall, or a continuation of the E. If the IRT was the right width, a connection to the new terminal at S/F would be perfect.
If we are gonna propose new subway tunnels, I'd propose one between Staten Island and Manhattan, for example a direct connection to the "South Ferry complex" via a Loop track of the SIRT. The SIRT at St. George would dive deep under the bay, head to Manhattan, and there would be a loop station (similar to WTC PATH) that has transfer connections to all three of the subway stations that serve South Ferry. Of course the SI-Ferry could still run as a tourist attraction, and as an alternative method to get home/work. The headways and trains-per-hour on this segment of the SIRT would have to be increased greatly. A schedule similar to the ferry will not do.
If we are gonna propose new transit tunnels, I'd propose a four-track into and out of Penn Station and New Jersey. This new tunnel would increase the flexibility and train congestion that the station suffers each day.
Since our current Governor is still bent on that connection between Atlantic Avenue and the Wall Street area, as a means to get to JFK Airport - they can get a new tunnel and station in Lower Manhattan. Instead of taking the A/C Cranberry tunnel away from the A/C lines and their large number of minority riders and giving away the access to a group of riders that are largely not minority, often with higher incomes -- for in comparison seldom used trips to the airport. Who ever thought of the idea of taking away a subway tunnel away from the A/C lines (for a routing through West 4th Street) that misses a major transfer point at Fulton Street - who ever thought up that idea has to be a major user of the sort of drugs that have to be illegal, or they had been released from the loony bin.
Considering how the current Atlantic Terminal stub-ends right up against the 2-3-4-5 lines at the Atlantic Avenue complex - the whole idea seems like a boondoggle of money to be wasted.
Just my thoughts.
Mike
If the number of connections is adequate, than why is there wide spread acceptance of the idea of extending the LIRR's Atlantic Terminal to Lower Manhattan? This is either proposed as LIRR service to Lower Manhattan, or in the RPA's Rx proposal.
The truth is that an additional 4 tracks of connectivity are seriously being discussed. At least 2 tracks will be built. I'm only proposing 2 tracks beyond the 4.
The idea of eventually running a Staten Island connection through Brooklyn is because wit wouldn't be that much longer of a trip, and it would increase system flexibility.
As for additional tunnels from new Jersey to Manhattan, I don't think that any of us will live to see that. No government has ever paid to build a trans-Hudson rail tunnel, and with New York's disaproval with the way the PA funds are allocated, I just don't see this happening. Especially with the commuter tax a thing of the past. Why would New York pay to make living in New Jersey more attractive?
Using the sunken tube scenario there would be a significant amount of cut and cover in both lower Manhattan and in Brooklyn to connect the river tunnels to the lines on both sides of the East River. Six individual shield bored tunnels would have less affect on the surface between the river bulkhaed and the points where these tunnels connect to the existing system.
John
Not really that difficult. WMATA did two discrete shield bored single track tunnels stacked under a 3 lane street to avoid surface impact to the building along the street above. I don’t know the exact measurement of top of rail to top of rail from one tunnel to the other, but I think it’s some where between 30’ (9.14m) and 40’ (12.19m). The geology along this section was so tight that the floor of the bottom tunnel had to excavated about 2’ bedrock under the sand and clay above the boundary of bedrock.
Stacking six discrete shield bored single track tunnels would have a pretty large distance from the top tunnel to the bottom tunnel. Paired tunnels at the same depth can be as close together as 20’ (7.62m) centers depending on the geology. Three over three is one option as will as two over two over two.
John
This would depend on the geology the tunnels would be going through. Hard clay and rock use one type of boring machine. Soft soil or sedimentary sand requires another type of boring machine. Another thing that also need to be considered is the water table and moisture density in the soft soil or sedimentary sand. Shield type of boring machine are more commonly used through soft soil or sedimentary sand for tunnels under water. These type of tunnels are usably lined with some form of segmented tunnel lining.
The stacked tunnels I mentioned in the previous post pumped grout in to the sands and clay to displace the water in the area outside the finished tunnel envelope. This stabilize the soil to prevent settling of the ground and structures on the surface from the lowering of the water table.
John
wayne
Okay... nice concept.
Two of the tracks would get the E train to the Court St. station, that is now used by the Transit Museum. The C and E would run this way, and use the currently abandoned outside tracks of the Hoyt-Schermerhorn station. There would be a new station at the tip of Manhattan. In addition, I envision the E train running down the Franklin Avenue ROW (which would have to be modified) and down the Brighton Line as a local, terminating at Ocean Avenue.
Ocean Pkwy station would have to be hugely modified too. The Q train would effectively become STR in this scenario, although that would entail running some B service nights and weekends.
The last two tracks would connect to Whitehall Street, allowing the W train to travel to Brooklyn in this new tunnel, and also hook up to a future lower level of the Nassau Street Loop, which would connect to the express tracks at Chambers Street.
The W not going to Brooklyn isn't a capacity problem. It's a simple matter of lack of demand. These 2 tracks wouldn't be particularly useful and your SI connector is a bit over the top really too.
4 tracks allowing WTC - Court St and SAS - Atlantic Av LIRR would be enough.
I'm not too sure about the priority of Atlantic Av either. That just seems to be moving a transfer from Flatbush to Jamaica, which doesn't really achieve very much, except having a load of reversing moves added to the already complicated junctions at Jamaica.
If I were to propose a plan, it would run something like this:
- From the SAS terminal at Hanover Sq under the East River (2 track tunnel) to connect with the Fulton St Lcl at Court St. (Maybe the Brighton could be connected).
- From a new deeper 8th Av Lcl WTC station curving downtown under Wall St (station with transfer to the 2-3 and J-M-Z lines), then running under Myrtle Av (stations Jay St (AFMR), Vanderbilt Av, Franklin - Bedford Avs, Marcy - Tompkins Avs (G), Broadway (JMZ), Wyckoff Av (LM), Summerfield St, 70th St, 80th St, Woodhaven Blvd), Hillside Av (Lefferts Blvd), then becoming the Hillside Exp.
In case I didn't make it clear, the idea is to have the E train run local on the Brighton Line, and terminate on the express tracks at Ocean Avenue. Q service should not be affected.
More details to come later.
But here's the flaw, look at this mistake in the flyer .pdf document. Since when is a station on the Concourse line, 3 blocks long?
Add one more station not mentioned (DUH!).
Prospect Avenue, N/B. This in addition to Simpson N/B, closes Tuesday at 10AM. The token booth ONLY will be shut down through November, with access to the platform via a HEET.
I'm not really sure why Prospect wasn't mentioned anywhere, but Clerks have been notified by a bulletin of the booth closing.
-Stef
At Freeman St where both sides are closing, those Clerks must go extra.
If I have to read in between the lines though, and the Clerk on WAA has to walk up and down the platform for 8 hours, I might say the Clerk was performing the duties of the Station Customer Assistant. Do you see where I'm going with this?
-Stef
I would think it was mentioned when we went to pick for Summer 2004.
As for WAA, I have no clue as to what those clerks will do, the cynic in me was talking before....
-Stef
In Washington it's a Saturday schedule, and us contractors who get slightly different holidays have to work in empty government buildings.
Da Hui
Chuck
That's SRNJ.
We Quail in our seats!
Chuck Greene
Just make beleve this film is for the TTC, how would you rate it then? hmm...
Coney Island/Stillwell Avenue-
-------------------------------
B D F M N QB Q W
About the only redeeming factor was the accurate portrayal of how the car was rigged for the getaway, according to the novel. TTC didn't seem to care that a window had to be busted out in order to fit the pipes together since the cars in the movie were about to be scrapped anyway.
Chuck Greene
I still need to see the original to this still -_-, does Target carry the original version of this on dvd/video?
I can get to one easly, thanks for meantioning that they got it!
Lt. Garber: "I'm listening!"
Lt. Petrone: "They're gonna fly the train to Cuba"
Lt. Garber: "You're a sick man, Rico!"
and when Garber finally meets Lt. Daniels in person (they had been communicating via radio for sometime) and discovers he's black... Garber goes, "Oh, I uh, I thought you were uh, like kinda shorter... ah, I don't know what I thought!"
and toward the beginning, when Lt. Garber (played by Walter Matthau) is giving a tour of the transit command center to some Tokyo subway brass, he assumes that they don't speak any English and although he provides an informative tour, he constantly slips in some insults, calling them "dummies" and what-not. Finally, after the hijackers announce themselves and everybody gets involved with that, one of the dispatchers (Frank Correll) notices them and yells out loud, "What the hell are all these Chinamen doing in here?!" and Garber goes, "Hey Johnny, will you take these monkeys up to 13" (to say goodbye to the MTA chairman), and then the one Japanese guy goes, in perfect English, "It's okay, Lietenant, I'm sure we can find it by ourselves!" while another one thanks him for an informative and exciting tour and they all bow as they leave... the look on Garber's face was damn near priceless as he hung his head in shame!
What a great movie...!
Plumber: How come that gate ain't locked?
Caz Dolowicz: Who's gonna steal a subway train?
Caz Dolowicz: Oh, come on. If I've got to watch my language just because they let a few broads
in, I'm going to quit. How the hell can you run a goddamn railroad without swearing?
An absolute classic on SO many levels. And the DVD is still available. :)
Took me MONTHS to even --find-- the DVD at a local vendor.
Most had the placeholder but no gig.
It never ceases to amaze me how people are willing to do the "thinkatude" required to GET a punchline, and yet cannot do the math when it comes to politics or other issues that are very serious. I suppose it's true what I was told by politicians when I worked for them - "insanity is the best policy." :)
Tak WIFE, please. (grin)
Frank: Christ, to hear you plead with that chickenshit makes me ashamed to be an American.
Garber: Go away, will you, Frank? Go play with your trains.
Well, I think the 4 and 5 also used R21/R22s...but I think the real reason R22s (and they were all R22s, at least the 3 cars whose numbers can be made out clearly: 7339, 7439, 7434) were used is due to the fact that the script called for the storm door window to be open (when the 2 kids in the beginning were railfanning, when Mr. Grey was shooting back at the police snipers, etc.), and everyone knows it is impossible to get that round storm window open on an R-17! :)
Also, in my opinion, I liked the ABC-TV movie version that played a few years ago starring Edward James Olmos better. :)
And I think you're the only one who likes the ABC remake of "Pelham 123." Nearly everyone I know regards it as a trainwreck, pun intended.
BTW, you can pick up the DVD of Pelham 123 for 13 bucks american and used for 7 or 8 bucks.
Your pal,
Fred
Hollywood is so orginality bankrupt that almost every new movie is a remake of a title or TV show done 30 or 40 years ago (better).
The number of makeovers issued lately that went right to video is legendary.
Not one of the remakes is as good as the original. That's a hard fact.
I felt that the first Batman movie was too dark (if Gotham City was as dark as portraied, half the inhabitants would have committed suicide.)
Jack Nicholson's Joker steals that one.
The one with George Clooney as Bruce Wayne/Batman was the best of the three, as he portraied the character as Bob Kane envisioned.
Adam West was better than Michael Keaton but I'd give the edge to the 1989 film as the best Batman version. Danny Devito as the Penguin in the "Batman Returns" film was cool but the rest of the sequels deserve to be dumped into the nearest trash can.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
The fact that the most of the scene was done unintentionally (except for that lady moving the grocery cart), added with the grime and darkness the system harborbed back then made it into what it is today. No remake should never be attempted.
Hijackers:
Blue: Alexander Siddig(Dr Bashir on DS9)
Green: Carl Reiner
Gray: Quentin Tarantino or George Clooney
Brown: John Malkovich
TA Police, Command Center, NYPD, and City Gov't:
Lt Clive Prescott: Avery Brooks
Captain Rico Patrone: Jerry Stiller
IRT Trainmaster Joseph Lazzaro: James Gandolfini
DCI Eduardo Martinez: Esai Morales
Train Operator: James Avery
Conductor: Matthew Broderick(keep it in the family)
TA Patrolman at 28 St: Matt Damon
Mayor: Gene Hackman
Deputy Mayor: Sidney Potier
Police Comissioner: Dennis Franz
This is of course a small sample, and I'm always open for any improvement. Can't think of anyone that can fit the Grand Central Tower cast but it needs two men, two women. And not to mention the hostages. But in this version, ol' Capt. Patrone guesses it right: "They're gonna fly the train to Cuba" although we know they'll end up somewhere else.
Jimmy :)
I would like to see Michael Moore do a documentary on film about the art of railfans or something similar. He could possibly cast Olmos in a role just as riveting as impersonating an ex-Bolivian math teacher. :)
--Mark
(I've already set down the appropriate equipment timers and assigned an SP tape).... 0:)
Taking Pictures of Pelham One Two Three, and will have Walter Matthau going around busting railfans.
1. Who would win
...and...
2. Which kind of tunnel layout would be advantageous for both sides?
an R10 on the tv, brahs!!
That *is* part of Mass Transit here in our city, all the more so since it links with RAIL on both ends of its run.
You may even speak about on tick, though it is off topik. but polyticks ain't allowed sort of.
Of course polyticks is part of transit, but not all of it is.
Elias
The *rest* of the Story...
Why, on BROADWAY, of course! : )
Mark
June Metrorail Ridership shatters records
More people took trips on Metrorail during June than during any other month in Metrorail’s 28-year history. Ridership for the month was 17,649,609 and averaged 706,557 riders per weekday.
During June, ridership exceeded 700,000 on 16 days, and it marked the first time in Metro history that the average weekday ridership exceeded the 700,000 mark. Typical average weekday ridership for the fiscal year was 650,000.
Last month also saw the highest ridership day in Metrorail history on June 9 when 850,636 trips were taken on the same day there was a funeral procession through downtown Washington, DC, for former President Ronald Reagan. The following day on June 10, when Reagan’s casket was lying in state at the U.S. Capitol, 763,121 people took trips on Metrorail, the fourth highest ridership in the system’s history.
Seven days last month made Metro’s “Top Ten” ridership days list.
“The ridership totals for June were tremendous,” said Metro CEO Richard A. White. “Metro matters to this region, yet we typically see a spike during June as the region sees an influx of visitors riding along with our regular customers. We can only speculate that the high price of gasoline may also be making an impact, however we have no way of measuring that possibility.
“As more people continue to turn to Metro and greater numbers continue to depend on us, it becomes even more important for our funding partners to recognize the importance of maintaining our aging infrastructure,” Mr. White said. “We are at a crossroads where our transit system needs $1.5 billion to allow us to sustain our service levels and system reliability to meet future demands for service. We need additional capital funding to modernize our assets, to purchase additional buses and railcars and ensure an adequate level of security. Without that capital funding, severe overcrowding will eventually erode our system, driving commuters back onto the region’s already congested roads.”
Metro’s top ten Ridership Days list
Rank
Date
Ridership Event
1
June 9, 2004
850,636
Reagan State Funeral Ceremony
2
January 20, 1993
811,257
Clinton’s First Inauguration
3
October 16, 1995
804,146
Million Man March
4
June 10, 2004
763,121
Reagan State Funeral Ceremony
5
July 30, 2003
745,627
Assemblies Of God Convention
and World Cup Soccer
6
June 16, 2004
738,747
No Event
7
June 24, 2004
734,125
No Event
8
June 15, 2004
733,247
No Event
9
June 17, 2004
730,772
No Event
10
June 23, 2004
727,823
No Event
BOSTON, Mass. - Protesters gathered at Park Street station during the morning rush hour yesterday to condemn the MBTA's upcoming random bag-check policy, handing out leaflets, singing songs, and urging riders to resist what they say is an incursion on Constitutional rights, according to a story in the Boston Globe today. The T Riders Union, the American Civil Liberties Union of Massachusetts, the National Lawyers Guild, the Arab-American Anti-Defamation Committee, and several other groups formed a new coalition, the Safe and Free T Alliance, to rally support against the policy.
The groups are planning a lawsuit against the random searches, alleging that such a practice violates the Fourth Amendment ban on unreasonable search and seizure and may lead to racial and ethnic profiling. Opponents also say they don't think randomly searching bags will improve security.
''The T's going to have a real problem with this, as people realize it's fake security and a [public relations] exercise, and what their rights are and what they're giving up," said Nancy Murray of the ACLU. ''Where will it end? Are we going to start searching cars?"
Michael Mulhern, general manager of the Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority, said the agency had a ''compelling public interest" in instituting the policy, which is to begin in a few days. ''We had half a dozen lawyers look at it," he said. ''We are very comfortable with the justification" leading up to the Democratic National Convention.
The MBTA plans to send teams of officers to randomly selected subway and commuter rail stations, to stop individuals on a random basis and inspect their bags before they enter the system. During convention week, that will intensify, and T police ''will be getting some help" to cover more stations, Mulhern said. In addition, any rider with large bags during that week will be subject to automatic search and no large bags will be allowed on the Orange Line.
Protesters performed skits mocking the policy and sang new lyrics to the tune of ''Charlie on the MTA," including the chorus, ''We are still not safe beneath the streets of Boston - it's the plan that's wasting our time." About 1.1 million people use the transit system daily. Several riders interviewed yesterday said they had no problem with the policy.
''Here are my bags," said Andover resident Rob Hoff, 42, who works in Cambridge. He held out two tote bags. ''I don't want to die in a T station."
''I'm not sure it's OK, but I'm not intimidated by it," said probation officer Elizabeth Davis, 38, who plans on riding her bicycle to work at a downtown courthouse during convention week. ''If it's safety [they want], then they need to look at the idea of shutting the entire thing down."
Shannon Gracia, 27, who takes a bus, commuter rail, and the subway from New Bedford to her health services job at Suffolk University, said she was subjected to an extensive search before a recent flight to Florida and found it embarrassing to have her private items gone through. But she said she was willing to be searched for security. ''There's things you have to weigh. If it's your safety and your city's safety, it's worth it," she said. ''If you have nothing to hide, it shouldn't be an issue."
term coined by our very own Amanda
I'm sure there are those amoung you out there that whenever you were looking at a Movie or TV show and saw a shot of the NYC Subway or Commuter Rail, you suddenly got this burning desire to find out what part of the system that was and the location.
Well I have a challenge for those who care to indulge me on this!! A few years ago a Movie came out called "FRESH" and it has a very nice daytime shot of what I believe is a train of R-42 cars making a sharp turn from a set of mailine tracks that are elevated.
After a lot of pausing and freeze framing and restudying my current subway map, I have long since figured it out. I don't expect an answer right away, but this is now out there for anyone who cares to take me up on this!!
Frank Hicks
They have all NY BVE stuff, including trains and routes.
Though there offline at the moment, keep the link as reference to check back.
Since Ed Yee did that car, anyone who needs it can find it here:
http://r68a_5200.tripod.com/cars/r68a.htm
And I'm pleased to report that the new ARNINE for BVE is coming along NICELY. :)
I started on a BVE arnine a little over a year ago, got the train.dat file done and running nicely (sounds and everything) but never got a chance to get to Branford again to do what I *really* wanted to do, take photographs in the cab and use THAT. Ed Yee (who did the nicely animated R68A cab) decided to pick up on it and is running with it now. He's also tweaked up the train.dat and is working now on the controllers and animating that like he did with the R68A.
It's going to be VERY nice. :)
He still has to work on the air pressure guage, but I'm confident he'll get it done and come out with the greatest R9 BVE will ever have. ;)
At least we ain't putting one of those cheezy red-tipped plastic Sears Craftsman jobbies in there. That would require the administration of a beating with a shoe slipper. Heh. I sent him back the artwork night before last indicating the front lefty corner on the stand where the reverser key lug goes and suggested moving the butthole and handle a bit forward and to the right (the controller hangs over the side on those and runs along the centerline parallel with the windshield) but otherwise he's got it nailed.
Should be interesting to see how he fits the indication fairy over the air gauge and whether or not he gets the wiper blade handle in there. The gauge itself looked wonderful. Sadly, BVE won't allow him to get the circular fetish in the needles themselves, but hey - if that's the only thing left to whine over, happy clams indeed.
But as to that black plastic on the brake handle - Joe Korman went and put a Schwinn handlebar rubber on his, but that ain't company issue. We were given gloves and a bare cast iron handle in the field. :)
Hayos
It's a great way to get people out of cars and onto trains for much of their trip.
I also helped you, it aint very nice of you to thank him and exclude me.
Order Yours NOW!
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jimlynch
I have Preview turned off in my Outlook Inbox.
If there is a message I want to see, I can double click on it.
Some email is filtered from known senders into other folders where preview is used.
I also have the Spamfighter plug-in running. That nabs about 40 spams daily. That is after my server, five black hole services, a killfile, and a spam trap have gone after them.
I'd ditch Outlook, but it does do other things for me. What the worth of them is I am not sure.
Elias
All I have to do is check the Qurb folder, if any is real mail that's new, I click Qurb's Approve button and "Presto!!!!", the sender is added to the Whitelist. Everything else is tagged and deleted.
Thrusday thru Sunday are supposed to be the big ones for spam, but today - a grand total of 4.
Spam Cop blocked 546
NJABL blocked 22
Spamhaus blocked 83
SORBS blocked 1
The Kill File blocked 2
11 were blocked for subject and date errors
For a Total of 665 rejected by the mail server and not eliverd to anybody's inbox.
Another 21 failed on the content filters and were dumped into the bit bucket for further examination and redelivery to the intended users.
Another 42 were trapped by Spamfighter and removed from my Inbox.
They gotta do something about spam and other trojans and viruses on the internet to curtail this stuff.
Elias
A LOT come from a link on the Baltimore Blast Fan Club site, which supports the Baltimore Blast Indoor Soccer Team. My wife is the Membership person for the Fan Club and the link is for membership info. The link is to our real mail address and we can't shut it down because we get maybe 1 or 2 real membership inquiries. The rest is 100% spam thanks to the bots that troll the web.
As to the government doing something to stop spam and then other "goodies", forget it. A court ruled that it's "free speech". BULL!!!!
Da Hui
If you spent some time on NYC subway trains, you'd know the battery seller "catch-phrase" of "not 3, not 4, not 5...8!" Dewd ... gotta get out more often. :)
----------------------------------------------------------------
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My trip almost ended after we started, because some brain-dead idiot nearly drove into the path of 3516 at Haddon and MLK [Mickle] Blvd., this asshole literally made a left turn so near the tracks, the operator slammed on the brakes. I saw a few people in the doorway get tossed around, but there were no injuries. The train was the 4:11 out of Walter Rand, and it was PACKED. First, the train had a lot of the people who went to the Aquarium/Battleship/Tall Ships, plus it caught a lot of the early rush out of Philly. The train was full all the way up to Trenton [Despite our near-miss and some slow running, we were only 2 minutes behind schedule the entire trip]. At Trenton, I got off, and took a pit stop, then got on the 5:30 departure. The southbound trip [on the same car 3516] was a little emptier than usual because the NEC train was late getting in to Trenton. But this train got crowded quickly as a lot of concert goers got on at Bordentown, Roebling, Florence, and both Burlington stations. By the time we got back into Camden. the train was just as packed going in as it was going out. Only a few got off at WRTC, but a horde more got on to go to the Tweeter Center.
I noticed the other three trains coming in [thanks to the EXTREMLY PUTRID schedule adherence of the 403 bus!]
The ones with two cars were full, but the single-cars were NYC like[packed in like sardines]. During the run from Trenton, I noticed that the schedule used 16 out of the 20 car fleet on 14 trains [12 single cars, 2 2-car trains].
I have some observations:
1] They better get better signaling in Camden at Haddon Ave. that is an accident waiting to happen thanks to the idiot motorists. That was the second time I was on a train that could have hit some idiot driver, two weeks ago a RiverLINE train I was on almost hit a 18 wheeler making a illegal turn at Haddon and MLK.
2] Some of these people need to take their time with the ticket machines. The nitwits always come to the station at the last minute then spazz out when the machines take too long to spit out the ticket.
3] I think NJT needs to get more cars [about 7 to 10 more cars] to give them some breathing room and run more 2-car trains. The trips I was on the cars were PACKED TIGHTLY.
4] With the events going on, the line has proved its mettle, the ones who rode to the Tweeter Center got to their seats while traffic was backed up onto and along I-676, those people lost out on some choice lawn seats!
5] I would like to congratulate the manager who made the smart decision to keep the line running late, especially today! Maybe there's hope for these people yet, and maybe they will get Conrail to push back their schedule so the line can run late every night.
This is good news. I never would have suspected those small towns to support the RiverLine but I was wrong. In fact, I thought once the novelty wore off, all those folks would go right back to their cars. It's good to hear the RiverLine is packed which explains why you don't hear the anti-rail crowd talking about all the empty trams going to Trenton!
Can you imagine if there was a Mall like Newport center right by the acquarium?
Give it some time - I'm positive there'll be some kind of commercial development ALL AROUND that place!
I'm very glad to hear about how well the RiverLine is doing! Let's hope it stays this way...
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
IAWTP.
Riding 1 particular consist on 15 June, from Trenton to Tweeter, the lead car
of our consist was OOS "due to vomit" and this subjected all geese to be sardined
in the SECOND of the two-car tram.... at the start of the PM rush.
After dumping at Tweeter, the set ran light back to the yard....
More cars (and more trams) would indeed be a GOOD move...
we surely left
a handful of geese behind on that trip.. and they were NONE too happy about
having to wait another 30.
Click to listen
How can you defend C/R's now? You can't even have audible manual announcements on even the best of the subway's PA systems.
Lucklily I rotated my mic to be perpendicular to the speaker so that it wouldn't be destroyed by the full blast of the C/R's audio assault...
Da Hui
Now if NYCTA could institute a more flexible and accurate system, then I'd have no problem with the systems. It is inexcusable that NYCTA cannot have their automated announcement system completely up to date with the operations of the actual system. I'm not talking programing in every little GO, but when changes happen months or even years after service to certain parts has been terminated or changed, then something is fucked up.
What? BBD and KRC aren't the ones that update the announcements, the MTA does. Increases in the number up AAS updates has very noticible since the vendors were removed from the process
--You have trains annoucing transfers that disaappeared a while back,
Which train? All R142 and R142a cars have the latest AAS software
--you have trains which merely squeal
Where?
-- or which announce completely wrong lines and stations.
Has a train done this in the past 3 years? Most of the time, if the Automated announcements system is screwed up, it's the C/R's fault for being too lazy to correct it, and in the case of the "stuck" R142A 6 trains, it's because of C/R's which leave the terminal without setting their signs up correctly- Again, an example of C/R laziness.
There is one c/R on the B express that is supper
He is the guy who says Loooooooooooooong Island Railroad at atlantic ave
There are some good C/Rs out there. IT's just that those who continually fantasize about the ladies doing the automated announcements fail to explore the other subway lines to hear what they're missing. They're just getting too accustomed to the mostly guaranteed perfection they hear.
The only thing I still have a gripe with is that the majority of C/R's still make the station announcement after the doors are open.
Replace () with <>
Like This:
You may look at my source code to see how I did it.
(Nice Pics BTW)
Elias
To see pics, view post before this one.
Nice image posting Elias.
Both of u have a great 4th of July.
-Chris
Trying to save money, Metro has halved the size of its late-night trains, forcing riders to sprint along the platform, only to find they can't get on the overcrowded cars. Here are some suggestions for other ways the Metro system can raise or save money:
• Discontinue all Monday service after 7 p.m. Come on -- who goes out on Monday nights?
• Each seat will easily accommodate more passengers if people will sit on each other's laps. Raise revenue for Metro -- and make a new friend!
• At Metro Center station, install a dunking booth where, for $1 a throw, customers can try to plunge Metro Board Chairman Robert J. "No Problem" Smith into a tank of frigid water. Hell, make it $2 a throw. People will pay it.
• Problem: In cold weather, bulky coats reduce the number of passengers who can be shoehorned onto a train. Solution: $1 per trip Winter Surcharge.
• After waiting 40 minutes on the platform for a train, would-be passengers grow faint with hunger. Why not stock otherwise-useless Metro clerk booths with an array of snacks, to be sold at exorbitant markups?
• Turn off the air conditioning. Oh, wait, they've already done that.
• Metro should begin referring to passengers as "applicants." Every time a rider actually manages to cram into a car, he or she will feel like a winner!
• Why should your heftier neighbors get to occupy more space for the same fare? Charge by the pound!
• Reserve "premium seats" in each car. Then follow the example of the Redskins by charging a 10-year seat license fee, a parking fee (be sure to ban walking to the station) and a mandatory catering fee.
• Stop running trains to Virginia until they remember who won the Civil War.
• End royalty payments to the "Doors closing" lady.
• Look at all that wasted space near the ceiling! Go the Full Tokyo and install luggage racks to stow children and post-concert crowd surfers.
• Stop trying to fix the escalators: Lay off the maintenance crews, stop buying new parts, freeze them in place and call them "stairs." Which they are most of the time, anyway.
• Put a shingled roof thing over the recycling containers and relabel them "wishing wells."
• Open a bar car. Then you can really pack 'em in.
• So far, guidance from mass-transit officials in Bucharest and Calcutta has worked perfectly. Continue to model Metro's system on theirs.
-- Peter Kaufman,
with staff contributions
• At Metro Center station, install a dunking booth where, for $1 a throw, customers can try to plunge Metro Board Chairman Robert J. "No Problem" Smith into a tank of frigid water. Hell, make it $2 a throw. People will pay it.
Make it battery acid, and people will pay ten bucks a throw.
• Problem: In cold weather, bulky coats reduce the number of passengers who can be shoehorned onto a train. Solution: $1 per trip Winter Surcharge.
Make everyone ride naked, with clothing carried in separate baggage cars. You'll get even more people in a car, plus no worried about concealed weapons/bombs etc.
• Stop running trains to Virginia until they remember who won the Civil War.
Who won? Could someone remind me?
• Stop trying to fix the escalators: Lay off the maintenance crews, stop buying new parts, freeze them in place and call them "stairs." Which they are most of the time, anyway.
Just hire NYC escalator-repair workers.
Just hire NYC escalator-repair workers.
That would cost more then what WMATA is spending now.
John
That worked for years at SEPTA!
Are the R-30's going to Nimco or Mexico (like the M-1's)?
til next time
til next time
-Stef
Bumpy ride though which is why it wasn't done often, but it can be done.
On the IRT side, anything from the R17 on except the R142/R142A can run together. Even the R62 and R62A are really just better made R17s.
:-) Andrew
Photo by The 795 aka - Trevor Logan
I don't believe the 2 R16's at CI are operable. However, the museum R16 should be, as should the museum R11. Find a working R30 pair, and we got one heck of fantrip!
til next time
Even if they aren't going on the rails, I'm willing to settle with the Museum R16-Museum R11 pairing. Enough of the Arnines!
til next time
Do you like talking out of your ass? If you don't know something to be true, DON'T SAY IT.
Meanwhiles, you still havent answered why the Museum R30 cannot operate sans mate??
That's his perrogative. But he's hinting that what I've been told is wrong. Given the source, I feel comfortable that it isn't. I hope it is, because that means there might be hope for 3184 after all.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
And yes they did. I rode them on the (LL) back in the 80's. Two classes of graffiti scarred equipment with different seating and railfan windows. You had to have been there.
Bill "Newkirk"
Since that contract is with the Long Island Rail Road, I doubt it.
What about #3005 ?
Maybe P.S. 248 to replace that R-16 ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Well, the other two 3 cars sets *are* functional.
Come back to the (C), R110b!!!
-Julian
I'm guessing it's a B car...
\\Julian
If it doesn't work then you can see it at the Riders Diaries topic here
http://www.straphangers.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000168;p=1#000002
I'm not really sure, but it could be a B-car
\\Julian
avid
avid
-Broadway Buffer
Have a good Fourth
GOOD LUCK ON HUNGRY CHARLES HARDY 2 MORROW MY COUSIN
Unfortunately, it isn't an express and it hasn't been going to Queens, but it is an interesting idea. Back in the day, you had the Fulton-Nassau Express for those from north Brooklyn to get to Coney Island. A G express could pick up people in north Brooklyn and the Queens Blvd corridor and then rocket them down to the shore. It just might work.
D/M/Q via Brighton
B/W via West End!
Robert
Da Hui
F rerouted to Hoyt-Schermerhorn Sts
G replaces F between Hoyt-Schermerhorn Sts and Stillwell Av
Weekend, 12:01 AM Sat to 5 AM Mon, Jul 10 - 12, 17 - 19 & 24 - 26-Click here for details.
Have a happy 4th of July!
-Chris
Wouldent it be a better G/O to use the B's 60 Foot cars and do the chrystie st thing instead?
My question is why don't they simply route the Brooklyn D to the Broadway BMT?
Some info: the C/K lines are really one line just that after Layfayette St. they split off from each other to become seperate lines [8th Av local is of this sequence: E,C,E,K]
C - Culver rush hour express
E - Culver local {ie: replaces the F}
K - speaks for itself
V - to Lefferts [till 1am as shuttle service runs from Lefferts to Euclid and would also mean the G would be dealyed from entering Queens Blvd from 9pm to 11pm]
A - to Far Rockaway all times
That's mostly it otherwise it's the same as the current map
Have a happy 4th of July!
-Chris
Ah I think I reailized the problem - the .GIF was supposed to be uppercased - damn these uploads and minute details
Anyways it should be ok now unless GeoCities is shut down for the millionth time
Until they put the third track into service, Bronxville and Tuckahoe have the distinction of being 2-track stations with 21 revenue trains passing through in the peak hour, plus another 4 or 5 non-revenue trains. Does any 2-track station in the US (say, on the LIRR) have more commuter trains than that?
3rd rail is not installed yet.
Temporary platforms at Bronxville and Tuckahoe covering the new track have to be removed.
I see three things contributing to this being a lengthly project. First of all, they're doing it with a small crew, probably to keep the cost down.
Secondly, they're doing it without any impact on rush hour service. Bronxville and Tuckahoe have some very long trains (including the only 12 car train I've see on all of MNCR) - you can't fill those up fast enough to avoid delaying trains behind unless you have elaborate temporary platforms.
And third, presumably to get community support in the first place, they only work one 8 hour shift.
And if I recall hearing, the 2nd place was some japanese lady with I think 35 hot dogs.
If you mean the chinese lady, that was said on tv, but I think it was for the last one, not this one.
If you mean rail wise, yes they are. Why you think they got multiple modes of transport intergrated into 1 network, with different providers. Face it, there better. Heck, they got something called Passnet which allows entry to verious systems meantioned. And I think Suica does the same.
Just imagine NY getting its first Maglev system, that'd be awesome.
Exactly.
And the unified system I heard of. The JR system uses iO cards, and I think the unified system is also around the iO name, iU? :P
Source
I was talking about this year's contest though.
You can help by reading. You dont say something, miss what I said already, and say you cant help it. It makes no sence whatsoever. I read everything in a topic so I atleast know whats going on.
And I'm not supposed to? :/
"Eric "Badlands" Booker, a 6-foot-4, 400-pound subway conductor from Long Island who came in fifth with 27 dogs, said he and the other competitive eaters were determined to unseat the Japanese. "
Now this is the kind of guy who should win these competitions...
And, I brought this thread back on topic!
www.forgotten-ny.com
If they did, all contestants would probably eat half of what they normally would. I guess soaking the buns makes the hots dogs go down faster and not to choke on a dry bun.
I did notice the Japanese guy was dropping parts of the saturated buns, so he didn't really eat the entire hot dog.
burp !
Bill "Newkirk"
We went to a restaurant in Amarillo, Texas, while driving cross country a couple of years ago that offered a free 72 ounce steak dinner if you could eat it in an hour. The only hitch is you have to eat it on stage in front of everybody with a timer going and you must eat the whole dinner, not just the steak. We were told that the biggest truck drivers driving through rarely win it. There is a 1 in 7 success ratio and size or gender usually has nothing to do with it. Here is the contest page on the restaurant's website.
Jimmy ;)
And Hebrew National isn't nearly as big as a Nathan's. o.o
Bill "Newkirk"
The returning (4) WoodlawnBowlingGreen
David
"Eric "Badlands" Booker, a 6-foot-4, 400-pound subway conductor from Long Island who came in fifth with 27 dogs, said he and the other competitive eaters were determined to unseat the Japanese."
lemme know i can make ya a zip file of them
http://www.htmlcenter.com
go there then at the end of the url put -- /jetta/train.zip
enjoy :)
shoot me now
better yet - take my bve for a week
hehehe sorry!!!
The observation -- while driving on the Cross Island Pkwy yesterday morning, I noticed a set of M7's at Belmont Park. Upon checking the schedules, they are running a couple of trains from Penn to Queens Village (where riders for Hempstead branch stations can change for busses) during the reverse peak. Since these trains can't then get back west (without tying up the main line doing a reverse move) and can't go further east (two tracks both going west on the Main, and one track going west on the Hempstead), they pull them off into Belmont -- I guess until rush hour is over.
The question -- With single track operation from Bellerose east, they apparently aren't able to clear space at Hempstead station (since they can't send trains back west). As a result a couple of rush hour trains were eliminated for the summer and then -- at the end of the rush hour -- there is a train that ends its run at Garden City. My question is -- what becomes of this train? Do they send it back west (there appears to be enough time to send it west with perhaps a follower or two before the next eastbound) or do they pull it east onto the section of the Garden City Secondary that has a third rail?
CG
He demonstrated a "rip" in the transfer and said don't let them do that!
I think I was hassled for no reason. I did nothing wrong, as far as I know.
Chuck Greene
R-32.
Stay tuned....
Chuck Greene
But let us know what was up, something about you're story makes it sound like a common scam.
It does seem very odd though...I'd say it may be a depot thing, but the R runs from Frankford, not Midvale.
Transfer
Passengers should purchase a transfer if their one-way trip traveling in the same direction on a bus, subway, or trolley requires more than one route.
Transfers are $0.60. A transfer ticket must be purchased when you board the first vehicle of your trip from either the Operator (for buses and trolleys) or the Cashier (for the Market-Frankford, Broad Street, and Subway-Surface Lines).
A re-transfer can be purchased for an additional $0.60. Only two transfers are permitted per each one-way trip.
Transfers and re-transfers are not valid for trips near the passenger’s point of origin.
This still doesn't tell me what a proper re-transfer is...
On a side note, TT coach 874 is parked in the side yard with all the rotting to be scrapped Neoplans at FTC. The Neos have had their fareboxes removed and "SEPTA" over the front door blacked out with spray paint.
I know this should go on Bus-Talk!
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
A day of misconceptions and errors for me.
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
R-32.
And if it was LA, you'd be laying on the ground while they beat you with their Mag-Lites...
That's news to me. Read the instructions on the back. I know I still got one laying around but not sure where, but transfers are not valid without coupon on bottom. The punched holes(besides shouldn't have 3 of them punched, unless tha'ts something new), mean that's the bus you came from. If i take an 84 bus to the 58(or 14), the 84 will be punched. I transfer. The driver trashes it and gives me a new one. If you keep that transfer and get off to get on the 24, at either bustleton or the boulevard(not ftc) and i hand the driver a transfer from teh 84, i'd be kicked off the bus for non-payment and theft of services(jailable in other states).
In other words, I believe you were set-up, but luckily you were let through. But there's something about that whole situation that either sounds fishy, or there's a problem with what those drivers are doing. Something ain't right.
Atleast the SEPTA clerk let him through the gates of the holy rail.
Regards,
Chuck Greene
Or....... maybe the driver was nearing the end of his rounds
and ran OUT of stock paper transfers??
Retransfer:
Retransfers will be valid up to 1 hour from the time cut on the face of transfer upon proper payment of fare.
The little stub piece says:
COUPON (DATE)
-------------
One Transfer
Hope this helps you out.
Thanks, Chris.
Chuck Greene
And punching three routes to one transfer sounds like one of Victory or Southern's blunders, not Comly's...
Um, you wrote "Thanks, Chris", are you refering to you as Chris, since your next post doesnt say that.
I aint Chris if thats what you meant, I'm Steven.
And glad I could help.
Next time, , If I take that routing from FTC, I'm going to use the "R", and then the "65", transferring at Wissahicken Transfer Ctr.
I'm going to start off giving the "R" driver a token and 60 cents and get a regular (with coupon attached) transfer. Then I'll do the normal thing, give the transfer to the 65 driver. No problems this way and no BS!
Thanks, everybody, for your help.
Chuck Greene
Ben F. Schumin :-)
From: Charles Greene
To: BILL Septa Driver
Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2004 7:09 AM
Subject: Re-Transfers
Hi Bill,
How are you! When you ask for a re-transfer and pay your 60 cents, doesn't the operator rip off the coupon at the bottom and give you your transfer back? YES
So the answer is YES.
Case closed!
Chuck Greene
Another thing is the rulig that a transfer is only good to go for a maximum of three vehicles... well, suppose you need to get from Oxford Valley Mall to Pottstown or Royersford? That's the 14, then MFL, then 100, then 93 or 99... OOPS, you can only go 14/MFL/100 on one transfer. 14/R/124 (125)/99 is just as many routes and takes longer, and 14/R/27/98/93? Forget it...
I KNOW most of you would say toss a Regional Rail Line into the mix, but who really wants to go OUT of their way deeper into Bucks County to get the R7 or R3, and then wait for up to an hour, where within that hour, they could be close to Frankford Terminal? And then have potentially ANOTHER hour to wait for an R6 train into Norristown...
Getting from Newtown to anywhere that is NOT Center City is just as bad without the R8 around... That's 130 to 14, 20, or 58 to MFL... you've expired the transfer's use, so let's hope you didn't need to get to Whitman Plaza, Springfield Mall, or anywhere the MFL won't drop you. Mind you, Pier 70 is exempt, since the 25 waits at FTC, but that's about it.
SEPTA's got this complex that anyone needing more than three routes for one trip would be better of with a Transpass or TrailPass. They apparently kow little of the cracked infrastructure that is their system at times.
Chuck
Demand must exist for such service before it can be considered by NJT, who go where they are wanted (as they often remind people who write to them). Not to mention, the tracks are not owned by NJT or NJDOT (IIRC) south of Winslow, making it that much harder to restart service. Further, there is Cape May Seashore Lines, whose existence would face being trampled out were NJT to restore Philly-Cape May passenger rail.
The Cape May Seashore Lines would love to run passengers between Cape May and NJT's Hammonton station.
If it happens, it won't happen soon.
Also, CMSL has expressed great interest in extending their line far enough as to let CMSL passengers transfer for the NJT ACL to either Atlantic City or Philadelphia. Whether this is a reasonable proposal, however, I cannot say.
As for Wildwood and Ocean City, forget it. Most of the Ocean City branch, including the swing bridge over the inland waterway, is gone, as is the entire branch between Wildwood Junction and Wildwood. Parts of the rights-of-way in Ocean City and Wildwood have been redeveloped, as well.
The car is apparently an old retired LIRR car still in gray paint with a blue stripe. It still looked fairly good although rust rot was visable.
The MTA LIRR herald was still quite clear on the car side, but no number was visable. There was the number 918 in stick-on numbers located on the end, just above the anticlimber.
wayne
I will try to find out.
Mark
Most of the WMATA cars were or are capable of traveling at speeds in excess 90 MPH. The Rohr cars when delivered were tested to speeds over 90 MPH. I was on one doing 81 MPH in June of 1975 before the system opened. Back in the mid 1980s there were some changes in the civil maximum speed limits to allow revenue trains to operate as high as 80 MPH on some section of the system. And many did in regularly scheduled service. These maximum speed limits have sense been lowered back to the original maximum of 75 MPH.
So that answer to flxiblemetro question is, capable of 80 MPH, yes. In normal daily regularly scheduled service no.
John
wayne
tho sometimes i think its too fast - esp crossing i85
Arthur Thomas
Broad Street Subway cars regularly go to 64 MPH on the express. I think I've seen them go a bit higher on a downhill, but 64 MPH otherwise seems tops.
Regards,
Jimmy
Jimmy
Yes. It continues through Washington en route to Phillipsburg. In Washington, you can still see where the original DL&W main line turned northwest towards Belvidere, Manuka Chunk and Portland, PA (where the bridge across the Delaware still stands). The old Washington station is located where the two lines diverge (follow Railroad Avenue south from state route 57).
Extending service to Phillipsburg on this line was part of the NJ Transit "2020 Wish List" of some years ago. In fact, the NJT station at Phillipsburg was built by the DL&W and used as a union station between the DL&W and the CNJ.
being we have been discussing the Lackawanna Cut-Off service proposal as of late
Understood. IIRC, there is an existing rail route between NJ and Scranton via the Poconos; via the DL&W Bangor & Portland branch and into Easton.
• At Metro Center station, install a dunking booth where, for $1 a throw, customers can try to plunge Metro Board Chairman Robert J. "No Problem" Smith into a tank of frigid water. Hell, make it $2 a throw. People will pay it.
Make it battery acid, and people will pay ten bucks a throw.
• Problem: In cold weather, bulky coats reduce the number of passengers who can be shoehorned onto a train. Solution: $1 per trip Winter Surcharge.
Make everyone ride naked, with clothing carried in separate baggage cars. You'll get even more people in a car, plus no worried about concealed weapons/bombs etc.
• Stop running trains to Virginia until they remember who won the Civil War.
Who won? Could someone remind me?
• Stop trying to fix the escalators: Lay off the maintenance crews, stop buying new parts, freeze them in place and call them "stairs." Which they are most of the time, anyway.
Just hire NYC escalator-repair workers.
Just hire NYC escalator-repair workers.
That would cost more then what WMATA is spending now.
John
That worked for years at SEPTA!
Did any (dumb as nails) Gun Hill employee recently trollope into 100st (i think), to continue their campaign of poor taste, or is deferred maintainance sweeping the TA by force?
Seriously, who expects this type of crap on a Manhattan bus...
On a slightly better note, I had the pleasure (Yes, that's right) of boarding 5396 last night on the BX12. Immediately apparent from the outside of the bus was that it actually had its OEM interior numbers intact, and unscathed (which is very very unusual on Gun Hill bus). All the lights worked, INCLUDING those above the turntable (that's right too). The bells all worked, and they actually lit up so that you can see them! Don't freak out just yet, there's more. The bus was actually fairly clean, and the seats weren't too dirty, for a GH bus (ie: you didn't have to worry too much about what you were sitting in). It seemed mechanically fine, the retarder was functioning to spec, and was not jerking the bus while making a LOUD liquid swooshing noise ( take a quarter filled bottle of water and shake it violently, and you'll get the idea) as many other GH artics do (since their retarders are just absolutely fucked).
To top it off, the bus smelled quite good thanks to the B/O who had a little car freshner on his rearview mirror.
5396 is what GH's buses should all be like, but as we all know they aren't anywhere close to that. Oh well...
Rubber tires, concrete and diesel engines does not equal subtalk.
That smell isn't particularly enticing to most...
To top it off, the bus smelled quite good thanks to the B/O
Also: Why'd you post it on SubTalk and not BusTalk???????????
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
wayne
Da Hui
From http://www.geofftech.co.uk/tube/
Speaking of LU Maps, any sites have old LU Maps? I found 2 links, but was wondering if there was more?
Try searching Google for 'London Underground Maps'
I just wish they had a old LU Map showing the old line to King William Street Terminal. Or the line to Brill/Verney Junction. :/
I can find you a Metropolitan Railway map showing the section beyond Rickmansworth:
From http://www.metroland.nildram.co.uk/amersham/metro/tickets.htm
Annoyingly I can't find a high-res version of this map.
And o-0 at the 2nd link, I gotta see if I can find that in a larger size, thats one I didnt see before. Thanks for the link.
Hopefully that will give you Brill & Verney Junction :-)
Have you seen this one?
All this reminded me to ask the LT Museum if they got photos of the old Church Siding Station, since theres no photos I found of it, and it seems to be a old old station on the Brill Branch. (Though the LT Museum charges 10Pds per photo after the first 4-5 free photos) :/
Hey, I just hit a idea, since they wont send me anymore photos for free without paying for any upcoming requests on my end, think you can ask them for photos since you havent before(I dont think you have anyways)? You wouldnt have to pay, and neither will I. :P Think you can do that?(Pics of Church Siding Station or Verney Junction Station).
I see they've left off Queen's Loo. :o>
wayne
It hasn't been the same since Deayton was sacked. Having said that, it will never be as funny again as it was in the dying years of the Major government. It also helped that in those days the royal family were making total something-or-others out of themselves in public with an alarming frequency.
Heck the London map looks like it could be easily adapted to fit New York if someone had enough time and comedic ability;)
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
Centennial Commorative Edition coming July 16th
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
Centennial Commorative Edition coming July 16th
http://www.newdeal.feri.org/library/s_39_33.htm
Matt
2Bangkok.com - The subway is OPEN!
Note the actual straps along the ceiling of the subway.
My understanding is that this is in addition to the existing elevated train that is already covered on nycsubway.org.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Does it use turnstiles?
C'mon tell me you didn't see that one coming... ;)
I have a friend there who will be riding it in the next few weeks, and will take pictures for me. And I'll be there in November for a "official" nycsubway.org review.
With the recent full service restoration on the Manhattan Bridge, does anyone know what's the top speed for the B and D Trains on the DASH (34th to West 4th). It it like it was back in the day?!!
R-32.
R-32.
~Former T/O for the NYCTA, BVE version.
BTW, what line and equipment did you have the pleasure of pushing; and what's this 'BVE' I keep hearing about?
R-32.
It's really horrible though as they struggle up that hill and you lose so much speed!
-Broadway Buffer
Don't believe everything you hear.
R-32.
-Broadway Buffer
NYC has to be the slowest subway system in the country, even Philly and Chicago are faster, and their infrastructure is just as old, if not older. Philadelphia's trolleys can go faster in their tunnel than the NYCTA subways do!
R-32.
R-32.
Why does it accelerate like that, just before entering 42nd street?
-Julian
Because the train is going downhill.
I've done that 155-161 stretch plenty of times and haven't really experienced above a 35-37ish
Hey, how fast would the F be if there was no Roosevelt Island Station and it had a direct run from 63rd/Lex and 21st-Qnsbridge? Would you say around 65?
David
You should try the L through the 14th Street tube during single-track operation, especially when 1st Avenue and 3rd Avenue are closed.
I agree, that Joralemaon St. tube is a real flyer; especially downtown... 60 easy on an r-62...a [ahem] Kawasaki. I'm sure the 142's won't even breathe hard doing 70. Those 142's are actually quite fast. You'd never realize it at first because they don't have much drama at speed - much like the 75 footers; or that characteristic whine that grew with speed in the past. Anyway, if those timers were on, they sure weren't working any time my train flew through that tunnel.
When do they single track the L? Does this have something to do with the CBTC?
R-32.
Seriously, folks, the Joralemon Street Tunnel is timed at 35 MPH all the way down to the bottom of the tube in each direction. Northbound, it's timed at 30 MPH going UPhill to protect the junction south of Bowling Green. Pre-R-142/A cars won't be able to do better than 24 or so climbing out of the tube in either direction with the field shunting disabled (R-142 and R-142A cars don't have and don't need field shunting).
David
What field shunting is this, and what is it responsible for? I'm dying to be educated here:-)
R-32.
David
http://www.trainweb.org/railwaytechnical/tract-01.html
Goes into it ALL in nice, easy to understand terms ... it'll save dredging through the archives ... :)
But the ONLY thing that wires meant back in arnine days was "Smock condition" ... "SMOCK! SMOCK!" ... (google "Steve Allen") anything else didn't matter. Tripper up, tripper down. Yellow or better, wrap it. Yellow STILL in the cab window as you passed it, *DUMP!* Heh.
So how's the "arnine project" coming, bro? Are we THERE yet? Heh.
R-32.
ITS NOT 70. ITS 45. THE SPEEDOMETER ON THE R62/R62A'S ARE BROKEN/INCORRECT FOR THE MOST PART !!!!!
Since the R-62s are now permanently arranged in 5-car sets, it is entirely likely that the speedometers in the mid-set cars are no longer being calibrated (after all, who needs to look at them besides railfans?). Perhaps someone here who works in a maintenance shop will tell us for certain.
David
-Broadway Buffer
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
R-32.
David
Your FYI is wrong. The fastest I seen them go is probabl6 60mph on a good day. And Untion Square was a drunk motorman who had a train do 40mph in a 10mph zone.
Whoever told you that 70mph can be reached by a R62 (or any other subway car with the acception of the R44 and R46) is wrong, and I'd suggest you check your FYI's.
Well in that case I beat that record! Because a couple days ago, my speedometer was reading 73 mph while we were stopped in a station and passengers were getting on and off the train.
Now dem's be skills!!!
R-32.
-Broadway Buffer
And thank you for nicely correcting me unlike some idiot w/ the screen name of Chap11ChooChoo who acted like a total idiot just because I said that it's unsafe for trains to go over 60. & what a small mistake to get crazy about.
-Broadway Buffer
R-32.
David
avid
I've got one for ya; although it doesn't quite match your bushwhacker ride through Howard Beach. Round about 1984, I got on an N train at Times Square [I think] that must have been a hybrid overhaul. As soon as the doors closed and the the motorman pulled that controller into parallel, that train started off with a "whooooop" sound from the motors under the floor ( the same sound the r-46's and 62's make, but never made before, and never made again). I knew right away this thing meant business! Sure enough, that train went galloping through 49th St. with its hair on fire - making that high pitched whine with speed [that they used to make]. It was too bad that we didn't have any more stops to skip after 49th St., because we were boogeying!
That's not all. During the ride I looked at the interior, and said "Why does this interior look different?". This train - or at least the car I was in - had different lenses on strip lights on the ceiling. They had those frosted lenses that eventually made into GOH r-33's - in place of the regular ones. I don't remember picking up any other details, but with the extra performance and all, the cars were obviously tinkered with. Though this was not the GOH specification at all - they still had the straphangers and look all the same externally. I wasn't on that train long and forgot exactly where I got off.
R-32.
-Julian
Just a Though
R-32.
avid
http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/26741.htm
----------------
> Gee..There must be a lot of liberals out there. All I know is
>that Mr. Moore is a #1 asshole. (friend's signature lines deleted)
Ayup ... and you can count me as one of them as far as THIS election's concerned. You remember my background in journalism and digging for facts, not rhetoric. I didn't KNOW that Bush KNEW that the first plane had hit BEFORE he went to that school. The look on his face when they told him about the SECOND plane said it all. Now that I know that, decided to dig a WHOLE lot deeper. Every FACT that was presented in the film was PROVEN true. Forget about fathead's opinions. The FACTS are true.
So I did a little digging at the Department of State's file room (Carlyle Group IS a New York Corporation, it's all there on Washington Avenue) ... true, true, true and true. I've talked to Navy pilots about the "angle of attack" when both planes flew into the towers. You CANNOT fly straight on a 35 degree bank. Those planes are computer-controlled and the computer will NOT let you do that without taking a turn. In fact, only Top Guns can do that in fighter jets and even there it's extremely difficult to keep a plane in straight flight at that degree of banking. It exceeds the control surface's ability to prevent. Terrorists on flight sims can't do that. It takes wads of experience. Ask ANY pilot.
EVERYONE had advance knowledge of Flight 77 coming towards DC for 40 minutes.Yet, there was a complete defensive stand-down. Interceptors from distant Langley AFB took off late and flew at subsonic speeds to arrive 5 minutes too late. Planes from nearby Anacostia Naval Air Station, Andrews Air Force Base, and the 73rd Air Wing at Atlantic City, NJ never took off. Scramblers in the air already at 9:05 from Otis AFB turned to target Flight 77 and were called off, despite a formal shoot-down order from Bush/Cheney "moments after" the 9:05 crash -- which had ended any speculation of accident or coincidence or hijacking motives. By that moment they undeniably knew in advance what was coming and where it was headed. Local news announced that DC was the destination. Surface-to-air missiles at the White House and Pentagon remained sheathed in their silos. Despite the planes having turned off communications with ground control towers and their identifying transponders (which also shuts off their own near-range radar screens to avoid mid-air collisions), they were clearly visible to all external radars, they were being tracked by NORAD and DC towers, and they were somehow being navigated directly to their target. How were they allowed to come into the most restricted air space in the world with no challenge or defense? That is the question that answers both when Bush knew in advance and begs any rational response.
Between the film you obviously haven't seen (pirated copies are available if you don't want to give piggo the bucks, SEE it) and a whole bunch of other information I've gotten, it seems to be a reasonable but unproven assumption that *WE* attacked the WTC just like the old Reichstag episode. REMEMBER, it was Cheny and Rumsfeld that CREATED Bin Laden. Who did we attack after a half-hearted, worthless effort in Afghanistan? We attacked Saddam. I don't see Osama's head on a stick. :(
But hey, I don't expect ya to listen or consider - but I'm working my butt off for "regime change" ... and I don't care if it's Kerry, Nader or Lyndon LaRouche ... THESE guys have GOT to go. No offense ... but SEE the movie, see the big lies we're being told, being lead around by the rings in our noses by the spinmeisters. I lived (as you did) in the days of the Soviet Union. *THAT* was REAL fear - a whole nation vaporized in a couple of minutes ... are the towelheads THAT much more formidable that our leaders insist that we perpetually cower in fear with all these so-called "alerts?" Or is there another motive?
Have you ever read the "Doomsday Act" which the repubs passed into law a couple of months ago? General Tommy Franks stated in November 2003 that the US will suspend the Constitution and impose martial law if there's another "terrorist" attack. Considering the mountains of evidence that 9/11 was an "inside job," it is plausible that the Bush regime will stage another phony incident as a pretext to suspend what remnants of democracy we still have (or at least scare us with the threat up until Election Day). George W. Bush was not joking when he stated, immediately after the Supreme Court's Election in 2000, "If this were a dictatorship, it would be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as I'm the dictator." "Homeland Security" Secretary Tom Ridge told CBS News on December 22, 2003 "If we simply go to red [alert] ... it basically shuts down the country." This would transform the United States into a military dictatorship under "Emergency" administration. And for WHAT? TOWELHEADS? :(
Nope, I was raised to be an AMERICAN, I *refuse* to allow this nation to become a repeat of the Soviet Union. THESE assclowns have *GOT* to go. Period.
As I said in the beginning, you and I have BOTH been through "da Russkies" ... THAT coulda been a REALLY bad day. And still, somehow we survived that all and went on with our lives. Why? Because we had LEADERS ... "there is NOTHING to FEAR but BEER itself!" And we trusted them to take care of business, and they in turn didn't go for face time in the cameras with a perpetual cavalcade of "LOOK OUT! There's a terrorist and he's gunning for YOU." You're in law enforcement. Ask yourself the most important question ... "who NEEDS to know?" Is it proper procedure to go into a situation and blare over the loudspeakers, "there's a man on the second floor with a bomb ... be vigilant?" YOU know what happens - the building empties out, people falling over one another, shitstains on the sidewalk and the PERP gets AWAY (if he doesn't shoot'em all up first) ... right?
These "alerts" need to go to first responders, not Joe Beercan. Where's the "public service announcements" saying, "if you see someone in a winter coat in August, call a cop." or "if you spot someone who's fidgety and looking all around and they're clutching a briefcase in a strange manner, call a cop." THOSE are suitable warnings for a public that's a bunch of morons, GUARANTEED to do something stupid when push comes to show. No? So what's WITH all these "terrorist event likely at YOUR house, and have a nice day." Huh? C'MON ... ANY cop can spot something that don't smell right. No?
And if our "leaders" had BALLS (Cheney's been in a spiderhole since the election, nevermind 9/11) they'd solve this PRONTO. Here's how that you WON'T hear out of Rush Gasbag (has he kicked his habit yet? heh) ... a REAL leader would give a speech like this:
"My fellow Americans. We're a nation that is BETTER than living in fear, and we're NOT going to let the terrorists get in another sucker punch again. I'm putting the Arab nations on notice. *ONE* more attack, anywhere, any time, any place will be met with the most SEVERE force. In the event of ANY other attack, our nuclear missiles have been aimed at the following targets: Mecca, 50 megatons. Medina, 50 megatons. Tehran, 20 megatons. Damascus, 50 megatons. Beirut, 20 megatons. Amman, 20 megatons. Riyahd, the granddady, 100 megatons. And the Dome of the Rock, four bunker busters so as to not disturb the Wailing Wall. We will turn your sands to GLASS so you'll keep slipping and falling down as we take your oil as the price of your terrorism."
Wanna see this this end FAST? Any LEADER who had the balls to say to THEM what we said to the SOVIETS could COUNT on the fuckers rounding up the Wahabbi so fast their heads will spin. If it's a RELIGIOUS war they want, then let's just put it this way, as we ALWAYS HAVE up until Shrub, "we'll take you OUT." America gets VERY little oil from there, if we had to, the price would be bearable. We'd have ALLIES too since it would potentially impact them more than us. The shit WOULD end. If only our leaders had balls. :(
But not to worry, wrist ain't gone limp ... but these assholes have GOT to go. Since 9/11, THEY'VE been doing the work of the terrorists themselves. And if you doubt me, WATCH them ramp it up as the election comes on. If I'm wrong, I'll blow ya. Heh. What was it that the terrorists wanted? Ruin our economy AND make us live in fear? And WHO is providing that? :(
Ever spot a coup d'etat when it was happening around you? Remember the old hippie axiom? "Know they enemy. KNOW thyself?" Hmmm ... but that's where I'm coming from - Cheney in a spiderhole and Shrub forever clueless (he's had four years now and hasn't made a coherent sentece YET) ... no, I don't think we can get any lower than that. And Dick Cheney can go f*ck himself. :)
We're BETTER than that, AND we *have* the nukes to back up OUR threat of true terrorism for the other side. Unfortunately, all we have is this Shrub. :(
"Please stick to rapid/rail transit issues only. This is not "WorldPoliticsTalk"!"
Or are you a member of the "truth squad" appointed to quash questioning of "Fearless Leader?" :(
WHERE IS SHRUB on this most PATRIOTIC day? ("we're at war now")
Could it be TRUE that NYC will be attacked AGAIN today? Run for your lives! No Shrub, Not even Mr. "Go do an impossible sex act" ... if we *had* a leader, first of all, he'd be in TOWN. (or at least "number two") *AND* they'd ride the subway to PROVE their "patriotism" ... forgive me if I bristle. Your party is full of it. PROFF today. :(
That's correct. Your reply, however, was a 100% political rant-and-rave and had nothing to do with transit.
Why not leave the Hazmat stuff to the NYFD, who's been doing this for ages, and stick with yelling at pedestrians and writing tickets and shooting 'bad guys', not to mention everything else that moves?
And what is FDNY going to do? Spray water at it?
Seems to me that either department could be equipped to assist victims in such an attack. How about both?
RSTN 1, Stella 0.
Don't shout, it'll make you even more angry. You cock
sucker.
For the fifth time, shut the f*** up."
Sorry David for going off topic, this is the final off-topic you'll see from me. Just wanted to let the rest know, that it IS rstn, since people were wondering at the time.
What ever happened with the (7)/(8) going to Laguardia?
Dylan
Yes indeed; long departed railfans.
Larry, RedbirdR33
A short single-track section shouldn't do any harm, especially one with no stations on it. If you think about it, each of the tracks at TSQ on the 7 are effectively single track sections, with a station stop and a reversing move on them, each of which handles up to 14tph and supposedly in the past up to 18tph. The M train runs nowhere near those frequencies (IIRC it runs about 6 or 7tph max), so there should be no problems with operating such a segment, with the obvious caveat that Manhattan-bound trains get priority, so as not to fnck up the merge at Myrtle/Broadway.
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/SUBWAYS/connectingrailroad/connectingrailroad.html
Sounds good to me.
In any case, the project was one of Giuliani's pet projects, but it fell out of favor once Bloomberg came into office with other priorities. With all of the other subway expansion projects that are being actively built or studied today, it will probably be a long time before any LaGuardia subway project is considered again.
I think the Astoria line extension is better though.
Too bad going under the NIMBYs would be so expensive...
Mark
The M train is going no further north than Metropolitan Avenue. And if it went from there to LGA, I wouldn't use it because of having to go too far south in Manhattan to get it.
Amtrak Train Stopped For Arabic-Looking Graffiti
POSTED: 12:04 am EDT July 4, 2004
UPDATED: 1:46 am EDT July 4, 2004
WASHINGTON -- An Amtrak train bound from Miami to New York was halted in Washington for more than an hour Saturday as authorities investigated a possible threat.
Train 92, the Silver Star, left Miami at 10:30 a.m. Friday. Authorities said a painted message in Arabic was seen at the Orlando station and suggested something would possibly happen in Washington, Local 6 News reported.
Amtrak spokeswoman Vernae Graham confirmed that the graffiti prompted security officials to stop the train when it arrived at Washington's Union Station on Saturday afternoon. However, she could not confirm media reports that the graffiti was a message in Arabic that referred to Washington and the Fourth of July.
More than 160 passengers were taken off the train as canine units inspected the cars.
Nothing suspicious was found, and no one was arrested. Passengers were allowed to reboard the train after about an hour and 20 minutes.
Copyright 2004 by Internet Broadcasting Systems and Local6.com. The Associated Press contributed to this report. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
The loss of the WTC and it's people was a tragic event, and an act of war, but such events, such wars and its related loss of live cannot be prevented. The bad guys will ALWAYS win one here or there. There is NOTHING you or anybody else can do to prevent it.
On the other hand, there is no need to live in constant fear, or to believe that there is an enemy behind every scrawl, behind every camera! This is simply NOT SO, and our lives are diminished by our caving into this enemy.
Live your life in strength and freedom, and not in fear! The Godd Lord will call you, one way or another, all in good time.
Elias
Unfortunately, Bush, Ashcroft, Ridge et al. haven't yet realized that :(
All the more reason to VOTE THEM OUT come November.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Do not assume that a Kerry administration would be any less paranoid. Democratic Presidents often are considered soft on defense, which today encompasses terrorism, and therefore Kerry might find it necessary to prove that he's as tough - in other words, paranoid - as Bush.
I believe that, and have heard that from people in a position to know.
OTOH, it reminds me of what my mother used to say to people who said that you shouldn't be afraid to fly, because "if your time is up, your time is up." Her response: "But what if the pilot's time is up, and I happen to be on the same plane." ;-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
R-32.
The Arabic Message probably said
1. Eat at Joe's
2. For a Good Time, Call Jenna (212) xxx-xxx
3. Vote for Bush 2004
Either way I wonder what it really looked like. The train was probably sitting in Hialeah, got tagged, and now people think it's arabic.
There's people who can't tell the difference between arabic, hebrew or russian, I'd like to know if it was really arabic.
From Trains News Wire, July 6:
ORLANDO, Fla. – Graffiti found in the Orlando Amtrak station indicating there would be some sort of “event” in Washington, D.C. on the 4th of July, combined with “an abundance of caution” on Amtrak caused its train No. 92, the Miami-to-New York “Silver Star,” to be stopped Saturday and searched in Washington by FBI agents and Amtrak police, according to Amtrak spokesman Cliff Black.
The Silver Star was purportedly the last train to use the Florida station when the graffiti, at first reported to be in Arabic but later confirmed to be in English, was found. About 160 passengers and crewmembers were taken off the train and interviewed during the search. After an 80-minute delay, the train was allowed to continue on to New York.
Those alphabets look nothing alike. I can understand not knowing the difference between Russian and Greek, or Chinese and Japanese, but that is ridiculous. If a person can't tell the difference between those three, then they clearly don't know what Arabic looks like and therefore why would the jump to the conclusion, upon seeing some writing, that it is Arabic?
1) Can someone explain this oddity?
Also, there were service advisory posters that had a 4 and 5 in red circles.
2) I guess the printer duped the commuters into thinking the 4 and 5 were maybe 7th Av lines at a quick glance?
crashed, crashed, craaaaaaaaaaashed... into a ditch!
You do realize all posters are black, white, and red, right? The notices that is.
If you think you saw a oddity, come to the 7 where all service advisory notices are black/red/white.
I saw the same poster in GCS on 4/5/6 last week.
The red colors on the 4/5 I would think was to indicate "Emergency"
notice... as the text says "this RUSH HOUR work was unavoidable this time"
The red color could imply urgency towards the work being done.
(otherwise i dont expect the interns to notice that err)
Does anybody know why the B would run or was it just a deadhead signed with B?
Michael
Writing from the internet cafe in Coney Island
P.S. Stillwell Terminal look beautiful. How long will it be before the N returns
The N returns to Stillwell next year.
Michael
Washington, DC
About NY Underground, are there any plans to release it on DVD?
I watched it again, and it was just as classical as the first airing.
I watched it again, and it was just as mystical as the first airing.
The 45+ minutes spent at 65th Street was intense... and humid. We coulda --GRILLED-- David for that fan!
Like I said at the Screening, sans DVD, I'm MAAAAAAAD GRATEFUL to Sir Ronnie for the photographs
of the trip.
Or did you mean the batteries?
R-32.
Robert
1. 5001+5004-5003+5002 R68A
2. 2500+2502-2503+2501 R68A
R44, R46 (most cases)
A = even, divisible only by 2
B = A + 1.(odd)
C = A + 3 (odd)
D = A + 2 (even, divisible by 4)
R68 (this was the original R44 and R46 pattern)
A = even, divisible by 4
B = A + 1 (odd)
C = A + 3 (odd)
D = A + 2 (divisible only by 2)
R68A
A = even, divisible only by 2
B = A - 1.(odd)
C = A + 1 (odd)
D = A + 2 (even, divisible by 4).
hope this helps
wayne
He might have been confused with the R68, which starts at 2500-.
The person pulls one storm door open, and the way the opposite one slides to its respective side is by using some gears. As the pulled storm door opens up, there is a gear for that door and there is a gear for the other door. The gear for the pulled door turns the gear for the other door as well as moving its own door, causing both doors to open.
And there ya have it.
Took forever to figure out, but thank you math instruments!!!!!!!!
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
til next time
til next time
F:CONEY ISLAND
F:63ST/6AV LCL
F:via SEA BEACH
Anyway, I am now at home and will go map hunting shortly. No maps will be available for sale or to be mailed because I am unable to honor such requests. There are no exceptions to this. Sorry. If you wish to inquire about obtaining one of the maps used today, please contact WMATA directly.
http://www.lrta.org/london-wlrt.html#update2
This is the HTML markup of the WMATA document "The WMATA Service Planning Model" .
This document show the results of a study and criteria used to set policies WMATA uses to determine what type of consist to use during various times of the day.
The information in the document shows the reason why running two car trains is not operationally optimal.
John
John
the link I had was:
http://192.168.203.70/smi_web_server/wmata/track_schematic/wmata_track_schematic_nomenclature.htm
Doh !
That’s the IP address of my Apache HTTP server on my LAN. If you had not posted that I had used the wrong URL I would have likely never corrected it. Here is the correct link.
http://www.chesapeake.net/~cambronj/wmata/track_schematic/wmata_track_schematic_nomenclature.htm
Oh, and by the way,
Thanks
John
F05 should be Navy Yard which you might also notice is missing. I have corrected the error. This is what happens when you don’t have someone proofing your work for these kind of mistakes.
Keep looking. I need all of the help I can get.
Thanks
John
On the printed version that you gave me----You had Farragut North listed as Farragut West..
Mark
I looked over both the 106 mile single sheet version and the 127 mile multi page version. Both have Farragut North labeled as Farragut West.
Before getting some more documentation off the Dulles Corridor Rapid Transit Project web site I noticed that I removed one of the stations from Option T6 that is the preferred alignment through Tyson.
It was corrected in the route listing in the companion document for 127 mile track schematic.
The missing station in the 127 mile multi page version shows the RTU number for the station in the correct order if the station "Tyson Central West (Pike Seven) (M04)" from Option T6 was not there, however if you look at the signal number at the interlockings you will notice that they don’t match RTU numbers. The signal number are labeled as if Tyson Central West (Pike Seven) RTU was still there.
All of The CAD files for the printed versions have been corrected. I will upload the corrected CAD versions to the web tonight to those that have the viewer.
Next time we get together I will make updated printed version available to all that have them.
John
Amazing game by itself, but the Mets winning it sealed the deal!
It appears that nothing is going to save Jose Contreras.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
Happy Birthday, Mr. Steinbrenner. The Flushing Express just ran over your cake.
I *like* that one ... by the way, it's pronounced SteinGRABBER. :)
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
(welcome back, by the way)
But yeah, where it is and where it works, it's a delight. Sadly, this country's headed in the other direction. :(
Do I detect the smell of sour grapes?
The million dollar team always settling for the cellar or .500 ball swept the multi million dollar team that always wins and never sees the cellar or .500 ball.
You may call it sour grapes, I call it a huge embarrassment !
Bill "Newkirk"
the Mets may have not pitched that much better...but they don't have the lowest ERA in the league for nothing. Now if only the bats would wake up.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
Anyways as ticked off as I am that the Yanks lost especially this year's 2nd game [damn ump on that strike 3 call to Posada] The Mets will more or less lose 3 of 4 games to the Phillies, while the Yanks have basically locked up the AL East :-p
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
Jeremy
Again, why are you incapable of tipping your cap to a team which flat out beat yours? I've had to do it a lot over the past 7 years.
Bill "Newkirk"
Cubs Win! Cubs Win!
Hmmmm...looks like we have a new terrorist on hand who disguises himself as an all American boy with his canine sidekick, "harmlessly" armed with a pop-cap gun.
I’m seeing red!
Enough. Time to eat!
Wonder what Dominus Beechingus would have to say about this?
After an afternoon at Richmondtown we arrived back at the ferry at 8PM only to be told no boats till 11PM! Rather than be stranded we took 2 buses to Bay Ridge and got the subway back to Penn Station, then the LIRR to Flushing, adding over 2 hours to the trip.
I discovered that because of the fireworks in the proximity of the SOL, they cancelled ferry service for most of the evening. I didn't see any annnouncements of any ferry cancellations on the news or in the papers.
Pure idiocy...
www.forgotten-ny.com
And how does the MTA get involved at all? Are they required to post notices about the issues related to all transportation agencies?
And how does the MTA get involved at all?<<<
I meant the DOT.
And I'm supposed to check the website every time I go out? Why wasn't it the papers? Why didn't the traffic babes mention it on the radio? If the ferry will be out for over 4 hours, that's big news.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I didn't go to SI last year, but I did 2 years ago, and occasionally before that. This was the first time they eliminated service in my memory...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Michael
Washington, DC
Next year there will be no ferry service at all on July 4th. The year after, no service for that entire week. The following year, they'll just forget to resume service afterwards at all.
Did you take the ferry to Richmondtown in the afternoon? Were there no notices posted on the ferry then?
Not a thing. They're making loud announcements on the ferry since the accident last fall but there was nothing on the loudspeakers when we were on the noon boat.
They dropped the ball.
www.forgotten-ny.com
No, was very crowded and i did'nt get near the wall.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I'm not saying this was sufficient notice to all public. But that's how it was. Happened last year as well and judging from other posts, it's been going on for a few years.
=)
But I gotta admit, the coolest thing I saw was when we passed by Coney Island, coming and going. It was just something else, to see how crowded the beach was. Wall to wall, like the old days. The humans completely covered the beach. And passing by again at night was quite a visual treat. It was thrilling to see, actually. Brooklyn really seems to fit very comfortably with the seashore.
http://www.newsday.com/news/columnists/ny-nysub053881987jul05,0,7504726,print.column?coll=ny-news-columnists
Bill "Newkirk"
I assume that to get off the MTA right-of-way they'll either need a crane and a hugely oversized flatbed, or crank some manual switches and open some fences?
and 1050.9(a):
No person, except as specifically authorized by the Authority, shall enter or attempt to enter into any area not open to the public, including but not limited to train operator’s cabs, conductor’s cabs, bus operator’s seat location, token booths, closed-off areas, mechanical or equipment rooms, concession stands, storage areas, interior rooms, tracks, roadbeds, tunnels, plants, shops, barns, train yards, garages, depots or any area marked with a sign restricting access or indicating a dangerous environment.
Possession of keys, brake handles, etc. is also a chargeable offense, but it doesn't come under NYCRR part 1050 since it isn't listed. If it's found that a person who passed him/herself off as an employee entered the system without paying a fare, he or she could conceivably be charged with fare evasion (which DOES come under NYCRR part 1050) as well.
David
From what I heard, he actually was good at the job, hard to charge him with reckless endangerment...
Did he have his own handle or somehow convince another operator to "load" him one?
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
I see that Darius was only charged with "attempted grand larceny" because he signed the vehicle out and back in again. I'm not even sure that's attempted, in my completely-layperson legal judgment :-)
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
Streetcars are not motor vehicles, but transit authorities that have streetcar (not LRV) operations usually require a CDL licence, since the employee usually starts as a bus operator before moving to rail.
Arizona requires a CDL for any "vehicle-for-hire" operating in the street... which includes streetcars. As a consequence, all of Old Pueblo Trolley's volunteer operators must have a CDL.
Here's a few of my own photos of OPT.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
David
Actually, it isn't UNLESS the possession occurs on Transit property. There, it would be construed as "possession of burglary tools" I would suppose. But I have brake handles, keys and all the tools to operate subway trains in my possession as a member of a train museum where such operates. And I have operated, therefore the possession is lawful. But I'd have to be INSANE to take them onto NYCTA property. Wait a minute - I *am* insane. Nevermind. :)
But off property, possession shouldn't be a problem. You can't even open a beer with a brake handle.
And with all this "in these times" nonsense, you have pedantic legislators quibbling over who can smoke where instead. (grin) Gotta love the porcine, eh?
OH BY THE BY, saw that "movie" you've been pushin'...
all I could say was ..wow...
Oh yeah,there are more than enough folks walking around with no souls.
Look at that guy in the White House....
Then you don't know how to use your brake handle >G<
That nipple is there for a reason.
If you've got an arnine handle handy, take a look at that hole on the underside. Now examine the hole on the end of the handle. Add a faucet screen, put the end up to your lips, and suck. THAT'S the reason the newer handles ain't built the way the old ones were. Heh.
It's funny ... when I worked there, I'd see people "passing the handle" ... I never got it until recently. Whoops.
Peace,
ANDEE
Fake conductor nabbed - again.
Pete Donohue and Tony Sclafani, NY Daily News, July 3, 2004
A bogus subway conductor was busted again yesterday when cops on board
a Manhattan train realized he was in the wrong car, officials said.
Edward Brown, in uniform and equipped with a Transit Authority radio
and a set of transit keys, was nabbed about 10 a.m. aboard an eight-car
C train at Columbus Circle, police sources said.
Plainclothes transit Officers Peter Rodriguez and Steve Vinella got
suspicious when they spotted Brown in the conductor's cab in the lead
car because conductors should be in the middle cars, the sources said.
The cops questioned him and asked for his transit identification card,
but Brown didn't have one, police sources said.
He was taken off the train and arrested.
Brown, of Flushing, Queens, was charged with criminal impersonation of
a transit worker, a misdemeanor, and possession of stolen property. He
had been arrested twice before on charges of impersonating a transit
worker, police sources said.
http://www.nydailynews.com/07-03-2004/news/story/208669p-179923c.html
He's someone new on the radar. I wonder what he imagined himself doing in the lead car?
http://www.timesnewsweekly.com/Archives2003/Jan.-Mar.2003/010303/NewFiles/POSING%20AS%20TA.html
http://www.rockawave.com/News/1999/0703/Front_Page/Impersonates_Conductor0703.html
Maybe he thought he was on a PATH train.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/05/nyregion/05diary.html
Kristine Freeland
New York, NY
Welcome to SubTalk, as I think this may have been your first time posting.
Do you have any more tales of the wonderful hearts that pass through the tunnels of the city?
My name is Dr. Christian Neuert and I work for the Deutsches Museum in Munich, Germany.
I really hope that someone of you can help me...
First of all I will have to give you some information about our projekt, so that you will not be surprised about my question:
In May 2003, the Deutsches Museum, one of the world's largest museums in Technology and Natural Sciences, celebrated its 100th birthday. In the same month the first part of its new branch museum - the Deutsches Museum Verkehrszentrum (Museum of Transport and Traffic) - has opened. In three large halls - covering an area of 12,000 m2 - this new museum focuses on land transport. The themes presented in the halls differ from hall to hall. The exibition in hall no 1 will be about "City Traffic" (Opening in 2005) and in hall no 2 about "Travelling" (Opening also in 2005). Since May 2003 you can find in hall no 3 the exibition about "Mobility and Technology".
In hall no 1 ("City Traffic") there will be an area about public transport. In this context, we want to pick out "underground transport" as a central theme and - as one aspect - we want to show, how the interior of an "old" historical underground car looked like - compared with the interior of a very modern one, e.g. of a New York subway car. So we are thinking about showing a part/section (length approx. 3 meters) of one modern (New York) subway car.
In this context I would like to ask my question...
Does anybody know, where maybe we can get one?
Best wishes from Germany
Dr. Christian Neuert
P.S.
If you want to get more information about the "Deutsches Museum" and the "Deutsches Museum Verkehrszentrum", please check out our internet presentations:
www.deutsches-museum.de
and
http://verkehrszentrum.deutsches-museum.de
R-32.
(from the MTA website, www.mta.info)
Division of Materiel - Operations - Asset Recovery, 130 Livingston Street, 6th floor, Room 6044, Brooklyn, NY 11201. Phone: 1(800) 543- VALU; Fax: (718) 694-5344.
Good luck!
David
You just missed it though. We (New York City Transit) just got finished dumping over one thousand red coloured cars known as 'Redbirds' into the ocean off the coast of Delaware. As you continental types from the other side of the pond are fond of pointing out, us Americans do some stupid things ( even though the Transit Authority made that decision and not the average person). All that precious steel at the bottom of the sea. Do the fish need a metro; did anybody ask them?
Anyhow, any of those could have satisfied your need sufficiently. The next major retirement is not for another year or two if then. Until then, you most probably will have to pick from amongst the left-overs ( the few cars that did not get thrown out for the sake of fan trips, or those pressed into work service (but those had their interiors modified or stripped)). Anyhow, check the website and write Transit for their response.
I hope this helps.
R-32.
I know, my paternal grandfather was one of the designers.
Peace,
ANDEE
Ha! You could build a six track lion on the Concourse with room left over!
Elias
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
The Concourse line having 3 tracks would have been 4 tracks, if not for the extra wide platform at the N/B side of 145th St, lower level. It is now impossible to convert to a 4 track line for the following reasons:
1. It would require displacement of thousands of apartment residents and businesses along the Grand Concourse.
2. It runs above the Cross-Bronx Expressway; which Robert Moses and company built the highway, in the 1950's, in such a way as not to disrupt the subway tunnel. Can you imagine the traffic nightmares along the nation's busiest interstate for years to come? The tunnel is made of bedrock (from what I observed), and you have foundations along the rock that may be disrupted.
3. The existing mezzanines and passageways will have to be realinged, requiring full station closures for an extended period, possibly numerous weekend closures of the entire line above 145th st.
4. Track interlockings at both sides of Bedford Park Blvd would also have to be realinged and is not feasible from both cost and engineering factors. So basically, you have to close down Tremont, Fordham, Kingsbridge, and Bedford Park stations and try to convert the platforms and walls into 4 tracks, and the same 2 island platforms. Impossible to do.
5. The ridership does not justify any need for increased capacity on the Concourse line, 3 tracks with the middle track is used for peak direction express service to/from Manhattan. And the tracks are set up to be among the most efficent uses in the entire subway system. For example, unlike local and express tracks which may have to cross or merge paths at some point (A/C at Hoyt St), the Concourse line allows local and express trains to run independently (pun intended) of each other. B and D trains can run alongside each other when leaving 125th st and will never have to share tracks anywhere up to, and including Bedford Park Blvd. They still have to share one track in reverse peak but why tinker with a good thing as that?
"It runs above the Cross-Bronx Expressway; which Robert Moses and company built the highway, in the 1950's, in such a way as not to disrupt the subway tunnel."
It must have been one of his weaker moments. :0)
So that REALLY was a challenge to build a 3 lane highway, leaving a subway line untouched. He also did the Prospect Expressway, and that required a new entrance at Fort Hamilton Parkway because part of the F line runs underneath it.
I wish he had brought that kind of ingenuity to transit as well as roads.
At 174/175 the view is even more interesting. You look up and there's the Grand Concourse passing by, almost like it's in another dimension from the station entrance. It's like looking at a real life isomentric view, a slice illustration similar to those that show the detail of places like Grand Central Terminal, with all the underground tracks, power lines, electrical and other utilities being noted. Except here, it's the real thing. That "little" bit of engineering is superlative. It only reinforces, inadvertently or otherwise the realization that, yes indeedy, we are living in a human-designed mechanical machine constructed by us to facilitate our existence on a large rocky sphere. At 174/175, a bit of the curtain is lifted...
Is it possible to add a single lane next to the existing three where the Grand Concourse crosses the Cross-Bronx Expressway?
And is the Grand Concourse wide enough to leave three of the tracks largely untouched, while adding one track to one side? This way only one side has to be disrupted, and only one lane at a time.
R-32.
>>>1. It would require displacement of thousands of apartment residents and businesses along the Grand Concourse. <<<
The Grand Concourse is wide enough, at most points, to support a widening of the line without destruction of apartment buildings and businesses.
Peace,
ANDEE
But River Ave at 161st st at the Deegan end, is not wide enough, and the line cuts through a very tiny part of the Polo Grounds Houses at the Southeastern corner, enough problems in a nutshell.
We do agree the money could be put into better use, like extending the Concourse line towards Gun Hill Road and Co-Op City, as it was originally planned over 50 years ago.
Most definitely.
Peace,
ANDEE
Technically the Express and Local tracks do not merge, the local tracks continue on to Court St Station(NY Transit Museum). NYCT Just made a service pattern which has local and express trains share tracks across the river.
Here's an idea Widen the Grand Concourse to 4 tracks, All four trackways to IND specifications, but the Express Platforms to IRT specs (to eliminate the gap). Elminiate the Jerome Elevated and have the 4 run Express on Grand Councourse, while the B and D go local. OR vice versa, Have the B and D run express to the new extention to Co-op, while the 4 goes Local to Bedford Pk Blvd.
You make alot of good points, but that's not true.
First remember that the subway is two levels down, not one level down (e.g. contract one Broadway). First there is the mezzanine, of course, then - down another flight of steps - there's the platform.
Secondly, please remember that what is now the Concourse line was constructed in the median, under what are now the express lanes. That means the tracks are centrally located, just like Queens Blvd.. Those two three lane roadways are plenty wide enough for a three track subway. Just imagine - if you will - if it was a three track elevated. Even with platforms, there would be plenty of air on both sides, especially for a fourth track. In principle, it's not much different underground. There is considerable space on either side, and the platform level is deep enough not to force the displacement of adjacent residents. What they will have to do, however, is jack up and support the foundations of those apartment buildings (it's very possible). However, this is nothing new. They did that all along Fulton St. in Brooklyn as well as jack up the el itself. That's to say nothing of Times Square itself. The original curving alignment was built under the Times building. The 53rd St. wye is another example (53rd/8th), as those trains surely can't turn sharp enough to stick to the corners; they're deep enough - so they go under the building. The Concourse is no different. There is sufficient technology to accomplish this.
I have a point to add to yours. Those tunnel-bridges at every station would have to be modified where the intersecting roadway goes under the Concourse. The subway tunnel goes under the Concourse but over that roadway ( trolley tracks in the old days).
R-32.
I do not know. I live in North Dakota not North Concourse, but looking at my Hagstrom's Map, it appears that Tremont, Burnside. Kingsbridge and Bedford Park might have a part that go under or something.
Elias
Several. Along with all the ones that 'Elias' mentioned ( especially Tremont Ave., because that was my stop ), there is 167th St. and 161st St. itself. There are plenty of pictures. The book I'm looking at as I write is 'Building The Independent Subway'. Right there on page 55 is a photograph of 161st St. and below it is a schematic/ cut-away of the 167th St. complex. The 'underground' subway tracks go above the trolley tracks/ street. Notice, the diagram shows stairway going up to the mezzanine. Can any one tell me if those stairwells remain today? Probably not. Notice, like I said earlier, the subway is centrally located under the median/ express lanes. If you get a chance to view the said photograph, then you will see that there is plenty of 'elbow' room to either side - in terms of real estate - just judging by the sidewalk entrances diplaced way over to the side. there are other issues in adding a fourth track, but real estate is not one of them.
BTW, to the question again, I later noticed [on page 56] that there is another underpass on the Concourse; but that was before the subway was built. It is/ was located in the proximity of Bedford Blvd. (if it still exists).
R-32.
161st st
167th st
170th st
Tremont Ave
Kingsbridge Road
Bedford Park Blvd
Fordham Road has an underpass, but on the Grand Concourse itself crossing underneath Fordham, not on Fordham Road itself.
174th st and Morris Ave run underneath the Concourse but are not considered underpasses.
I think Burnside Ave does have an underpass, but I'm not sure.
Yes you are right, there is a Bedford Park Blvd underpass.
Peace,
ANDEE
Where can I buy/look at this book?
they have a copie at the Queens main branch on Merrick Blvd,in the Long Island Room upstairs...
you can get the whole book zeroxed for about 2 dollars if you want...
but I don't know if the book is still in print...you can try the Transit store in Grand Central Terminal...
R-32.
R-32.
Where can I buy/look at this book?
I'd Leave the Concourse IND line alone.
I'd build a new two track line and attach it to the Fifth Avenue Subway:
Stops at:
WTC / West Side Hwy (EXP)
Chambers St (EXP)
Moore Street / West Broadway (Local)
E Houston St / West Broadway (Local)
Washington Square (Local)
14th Street / Fifth Avenue (Local)
23rd Street / Fifth Avenue (Local)
34th Street / Fifth Avenue (EXP)
42nd Street / Fifth Avenue (EXP)
53rd Street / Fifth Avenue (EXP)
60th Street / Fifth Avenue (EXP)
116th Street / 5th Avenue (Local)
125th Street / 5th Avenue (EXP)
138th Street / 5th Avenue (Local)
149th Street / River Avenue (Local)
161st Street / River Avenue (EXP / Local Terminal)
Bedford Park Blvd / Grand Concourse
Mosholu Pky / Jerome Ave (4)
Bainbridge / Gun Hill Road
Webster-Bronx Blvd / Gun Hill Road
White Plains Road / Gun Hill Rd (2)
Bronxwood Ave / Gun Hill Road
Boston Road / Gun Hill Road
Esplanade (5) / Gun Hill Road
Bartlow Ave
CoOp City.
So my idea is a new line but with no real new Concourse Service.
The reason why I started this thread is because one possibility for extending the SAS into the Bronx could be to the Grand Concourse line, where it could siphon off riders from Jerome Avenue, and provide relief for the Lex.
Extending the (6)and <6> is cheaper, more riders on (6) and <6> means longer express running times. Unless you want to run the (D) peak express middays as well as rush hours.
But the SAS does not do much for the Lex vis a vis riders from the Bronx.
Elias
Which is why it eventually needs to be connected to the Bronx. The path of least resistance is to use an existing ROW, or the Grand Concourse.
...unless Charlie Rangel becomes Chairman of the Ways & Means committee. If that happens, look for $$$ to flow into NYC, and into his district in particular.
Yes, and No.
While it is more feesible to add service to an outlying branch than to a Manhattan Trunk, The building of a new trunk (second Avene) does suggest the opportunity to serve new areas of the Bronx. CoOp City is one good choice and Third Avenue is another.
A Third Avenue Subway could depart from Third Avenue by continuing north on Lorillard and then bending East on Fordham road Then following the Bronx and Pelham Parkway to CoOp City via Stillwell Avenue. That is an all new line, but it would then be too much traffic for a two track Second Avenue Subway.
Since we seem to be locked in to a two track lion on second, Id bend half of the servive west on 125th to the Hudson river, and send half of the traffic north to Fordham University via Third Avenue.
SAS is a nice idea, and is compatible with existing routes, but any really forward thinking lion needs to be a physically separate system, using its own cars, liner induction motors, computerized control and high speed row.
Elias
Why? It would mandate sending everything from 2nd Ave to the Bronx, including service from Broadway, leaving the 125th St. terminal cut off, but it should provide enough service.
Why ???
To the North and East of Fordham University is the Bronx Park (The Botanical Garden at that point) Just to the North West is the neighborhood of Bedford Park, and the former Third Avenue Station was just seven short blocks from the Concourse IND station of the same name. North of that is Norwood and that has the IND 205th Street Station right in the middle.
Let us put our money where the needs are the greatest.
Elias
Also besides 200th Street, there was also 204th Street, 210th Street and Gun Hill Road stations on the northern part of the line. I would make the line an open cut after 184th Street and elevate it over Fordham Road partially above the Metro North Station, then it will shift over to Webster Avenue between 194-197 Sts. 138-180 Sts will be a 3rd Ave subway. The replacement station on Webster could also increase the number of people going to the Botanical Gardens.
Stopping at Fordham will be worse than the Archer Avenue replacement Subway (which doesn't go to 168th Street and should actually go farther out into Queens).
No, that is not true. They can share the same ROW, but not the same tracks or trackways. Building a subway under the existing tracks or an el above the existing tracks are both possibillites. Of course anouther posibility is to use FRA compatible equipment and crews on that line.
Elias
Well my plan for the Second Avenue Subway would be to make a new subway under Third Avenue in the Bronx. According to the map, that is an area that could use service again.
My pie in the Sky gets bigger when I build a Fifth Avenue Subway, and send that up the Concourse non-stop to BPB, make a connection with the Jerome at Mosholu, then bend east on Gun Hill Road to CoOp City.
Elias
It was then decided to link the the two lines untill funding was availible....meaning "we'll do this latter when we built phase 2"...
while planning Phase 2 lines,it was changed again,so that now instead of joining the route near Grand Concourse..it would continue along Boston Road to East 180th st to join the White Plains Road line,with a branch to Eastchester[joining the Concourse extention from 205th st there]
The Second ave subway can accomplish this goal once again by joining the 8th ave subway between 125th and 135th st,where the tunnel speads out to 6 tracks[something simular to what was done to the Queens Blvd line for 63rd street service]
As of the moment,a route can be built to the Hub at 149th st where transfers can be made to the 2/5 subway.This way some service to the Bronx can be gained....for the moment untill a more suitable route is placed forth....
Are u kidding me? I guess you've never been on Grand Concourse before, it's huge! They could have probably built an 8 track line under it. I'm shocked to tell u the truth that they didn't at least build a 4 track one. They could have probably put the IRT out of business with that.
-Broadway Buffer
The BOT viewed the Concourse line as a branch of the 8th Avenue line and not a separate trunk line. There was also the matter of the Jerome Avenue line being a short distance away.
The Bronx groups were calling for a four-track line to be built, not connecting into the 8th Avenue line, but rather down the East Side to a connection there with 53rd Street or the 6th Avenue line.
The BOT didn't want to spend the money, and there was no sign that they were going to change their mind. They literally said "do you want to build this or not?" That was the choice, and it was the only choice that the Bronx had.
There certainly wasn't any problem with space on the Concourse. Just like construction on Queens Blvd., there were no centre lanes back then, of course, they just dug through the median without disrupting [much] traffic - what little there was back then.
R-32.
;-)
-Broadway Buffer
I think John Kerry is much worse a guy than DQ BrightonLine.
-Broadway Buffer
I don't think it's fair to blame the foamers for making us look like a bunch of idiots. We're doing a pretty good job of it ourselves.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
I dont do it anymore, ill say it again............ and why does everyone make a big deal about the Orange Q? its a color , not the letter!! Still a DAM Q Train!! Not an F or a Z!!! ( ya dont get technical ! and say , there is no Z signs on the rolls on 68'68a's! i know that!)
Who Cares, let it go, can we say ,. lets move on with life...............
I'm being sarcastic here, guys.
I meant to say that I didn't like the fact that u changed rollsigns. & plus, I said that I'm glad u don't do it anymore, so why are u still making a fuss?
-Broadway Buffer
Anyway, sorry for the delay but here are my my photos of R68 #2810 that was hit sometime over the long holiday weekend. Let's hope the NYPD will catch this vandal in the act soon.
I've seen "21st Street-Queensbridge", "Broad Channel", "Howard Beach", "205 Street Bronx" and countless others.
I've also seen B trains that just have a blank space where the north terminal destination should be.
-RJM
So, a suggestion: stop publicizing orange Q signs!
David
-Broadway Buffer
Bill "Newkirk"
Hmmmmm.............I wonder if other Auto Zone stores will appear on other Metrocards making it more difficult to collect ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Here they are! Enjoy!
Sidebar: Imagestation warned me “these images are of an adult nature”!
John
The numbers are not used publically but I think the letters are.
In addition, the collective Harbor Freeway [bus] service is the 809, though it consists of bus routes 444, 445, 447, 460, and 550.
(Yeah, I know the 10 has been "temporarily" bustituted, yuck.)
Mark
The only reason 25 is used for the subway is that the schedule program requires a route number.
The Light Rail has two, I'll have to find out what's used.
Chuck Greene
Like Throgs Neck instead of the correct Throgg's Neck.
Gasp! First post in a couple months!!!
The (4) WoodlawnBowlingGreen
I Beg To Differ!
Also, while we're talking SUBWAY lines that have a station called "Union", Los Angeles' Red Line SUBWAY stops at Union Station as well.
Don't get me wrong, I love Toronto, and Union was the first subway station I used after riding a VIA Rail train from Montreal to Toronto's Union Station back in August of 1980. However, there are other "Union Stations" in North America, and as you can see, there are subways that stop there as well.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
-Robert King
To my knowledge Toronto has no stations fully located on a curve (though some stations have slight curves at the edges).
Did you happen to recognize anything from the video as something definitely from the TTC-- I mean maybe it isn't Toronto!
-Robert King
And if there are any Subtalkers there - maybe we can railfan
Mike
Mike
Mike
-Robert King
"Excellent"
Don't be at all worried about taking photography, I'm sure most operators would help out and take the picture for you so that you could be in some of them ;-)
You can do the whole subway system in about 5 hours if that's your thing... Definitely grab a railfan window each and every time you get on though–- it's never that long a wait for the next train if it's taken, and basically your only competition are the kids...
Most people coming to Toronto are probably most excited about the streetcars though... I'd take you around if I didn't work such crappy hours, but I'm always free to answer any questions you may have!
Take care,
Ryan
Mark
Mike
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
1. Lots of new residential buildings going up, and the quality of the facades is much higher than in the 1980s and early 1990s.
2. More people moving around the city on bicycles than I can ever remember (true elsewhere in Brooklyn too).
3. A bunch of wreck trolleys stored on a track inside the Brooklyn Navy Yard, off Kent Avenue.
Anyone here have information on number three?
They make nice seagull perches.
The grey locomotive will probably end up as someone's razor blades.
Mike
Do you want a real Brooklyn PCC rollsign or a copy? Expect to pay big $$ for a real one post-WWII, and several crucial internal organs more if you want a real one from 1936. The most rare are the ones made with the infamous mispellings (doonk doonk doonk at the print shop).
I have a TTC PCC front rollsign. I used to have a side sign as well but a summer job where I never got paid forced me to sell one. I just unrolled the front sign partway and looked at it.
-Robert King
They've just gotten an ex-Brussels PCC.
thank you
Michael
Mike
Took some pictures of even more ex-Shaker cars, including two sisters of the cars in the Navy Yard.
I should have an answer about the Brooklyn rollsign for you by that time. It might be a paper copy and not on the original type treated fabric.
The area behind the present Kent Ave gate used to be the Wallabout Market, which was served by its own RR to shuttle freight cars around. I think it was primarily small steam locos, but I think it had a trolley powered steeplecab for a time. Washington Ave. used to go all the way from Flushing Ave. to Kent, and had BRT trolley shortcut trackage up Washington to Myrtle that section was taken over by the Yard expansion.
The popped handle is the best as far as I'm concerned; some people just lift it before the train stops, so the second the train is ready to open the doors, theirs opens first. Or some imperious looking Frenchman gives a scowl, then pops the door open with a flourish. The buttons have made the scowl and flourish hand gesture obsolete.
In Spain, people aren't so imperious; they look more like they are putting the finishing touches on a piece of serious artwork when then pop the door open.
Buttons are used in the US on Baltimore and San Diego Light Rail, and maybe others.
My main question was how does the TO know when to close the doors without sticking his head out the window. Is it a mirror?
Similar to London, except london uses mirror's.
Yes, l14 is fully automated.
Not as much as the bone breaking Sprague-Thompson stock doors did. I would call any post MP55 stock door closing gentle.
When death rides the rails
I apologise that you (may) have to register, but I think that it is a very good read.
A quick summary--The article discusses the effects of suicide by train on the members of the crew and others and reveals some other information about this seldom-discussed topic.
Matt
i saw a ret tagged vancordlant train in the brooklyn bridge layup tracks
The amazing thing is that I have taken dozens of rides on the Harlem and Hudson lines over the last 25 years, but never one in an ACMU. The odds of catching one was better in 1980, with only the M-1's around to challenge them, but my timing must have been poor. Perhaps, at this late date a finale fantrip can be set before its too late. The ERA had one in 1998, but the trains are still running six years after that 'final run'
Will post whatever pics I took tommorow night.
A question though, how does one upload pics to this board to appear here?
The amazing thing is that I have taken dozens of rides on the Harlem and Hudson lines over the last 25 years, but never one in an ACMU. The odds of catching one was better in 1980, with only the M-1's around to challenge them, but my timing must have been poor. Perhaps, at this late date a finale fantrip can be set before its too late. The ERA had one in 1998, but the trains are still running six years after that 'final run'
Will post whatever pics I took tommorow night.
A question though, how does one upload pics to this board to appear here?
Dont they run mainly to Brewster(Harlem)?
Cant wait to see the pics, goodluck on your trip.
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Cannot find server or DNS Error
Internet Explorer
It's Dave's Electric Railroads , and I just checked - it's up and running - pics updated 7/2/2004.
I supply him with 98% of the Baltimore captions on the site.
Every once in a while some of the DNS servers go "on the fritz" and if you happen to be hooked by your ISP to one of them.
In Windoze there's a utility called "ping", which will give you the IP address of any site you specify.
I don't think the MAC O/S has anything like "ping", maybe the MAC folks know what it's called.
BTW, do you submit anything to Dave's site?
If you send him a bunch, he will make a Salaam Allah section under whatever line or city they would go in. Dave has done this for others who submit a lot of pics.
Whats a museum train car doing all the way up in england(Location is Quainton Road, former Met station in the steam days), now a Museum.
I remember seeing and photographing #1144 inside the place in early winter 1984, just before the start of an Branford-sponsored Metro-North/New Haven line fantrip with FL-9 locomotives. Inside #1144 on that cold, snowy day, the car was littered with lots of bathroom toilet and sink fixtures all around. Yep, that car body of #1144 was as sturdy and solid as it could be then, with a giant tall metal mansion-type gate entrance fence leaning on it in a horizontal fashion!!!
-William A. Padron
["Wash.Hts.-8th Av.Exp."]
--Mark
http://www.nydailynews.com/boroughs/story/209276p-180387c.html
Bill "Newkirk"
I'm glad wooden stations are landmarked (but personally I'm scared of wooden stations, I'm scared that the wood will crack and just fall down around several hundred feet to the street. At least concrete's more sturdy). It will probably experience problems and potential problems too. Termite problems, wood weathering, problems against fire, etc.
Good luck and all.
Can't happen with Ave H, the stationhouse is already on the ground....
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/06/nyregion/06sketch.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/06/arts/music/06CHIN.html
Thanks
Robert
Robert
Inside, you have two R143 cars that were taken out of a consist (the others are sitting nearby outside). One is propped up on those car body stands. Wonder what's going on with those.
In some cases, the ferry is out of service. I rode the ferry last Saturday. The 4:30 ferry from Whitehall didn't turn for the 5:00 from St. Charles. A different ferry was used.
It was nice to see the Barberi back in service. I couldn't find the plaque with the names of those killed in the October disaster.
Michael
Washington, DC
This policy of forcing everyone off was in place well before 9/11. I always thought it was to prevent homeless from sleeping on the ferry all day.
at least on the Staten Island end.....
did this to wake up the sleeping homeless that ride the ferry at night and so on......
Rip-off is really the only way to describe it. I was looking at the fares to/from the EWR rail station. From most stations, an extra $5 is charged for the airport access fee (e.g. Newark - Elizabeth is $1.80; Newark to EWR is $6.80). But to/from New York, it's an extra $7 - NYP - Elizabeth is $4.55 but NYP-EWR is $11.55.
A traveler from New York can save the $2 by buying a NYP-Elizabeth ticket and then paying the $5 access fee at the airport station. I can't see an easy way to save it going from the airport (except to just go the Newark and then take PATH). Even separate EWR-Newark and Newark-New York tickets are cheaper ($6.80 + $3.30 = $10.10) but I doubt you can pre-purchase the Newark-New York ticket at the airport.
Does NJ Transit really think we're that stupid?
As a way around that financial rape, I would suggest using the NJ Transit's #62 rubber-tired transit vehicle (God-forbid I utter the "B" word here... ;-) from the Airport to Newark Penn Station for $1.10, then connecting to the PATH or NJ Transit rail at that station to go into Manhattan.
I know the $5 is levied by the PA. But my point is that for fares to/from New York, NJ Transit is charging $7 over the base rail fare (New York - Elizabeth fare) rather than $5. I'm sure that extra $2 is going to NJ Transit, not the PA.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Different situation. You can't save money by getting a ticket from Nassau to Jamaica and another from Jamaica to Penn.
The reaosn tickets to Penn and GCT cost more than going the same distance wholly within the burbs is that the MTA has to buy extra equipment to serve the people who want to go into the city. Then that equipment only gets used for 4 hours a day. Suburban travel, while less in volume, is more spread out in time.
Also, there's probably some social engineering involved. Suburban trains make up to some degree for the poor bus service and allow poor residents to get to work at a reaosnable price.
That’s a good reason for different prices for peak and off-peak travel (even for regular commuters), not for inflated prices on tickets to Manhattan 24/7.
Not that drawing such a distinction makes sense. Either transit is worth subsidizing or it isn’t.
And since when do EWR employees not work in New Jersey? I’ll bet some of them live in New York.
CG
Either transit is worth subsidizing or it isn’t.
I don’t think the situation is quite as black and white as you portray it. NJ Transit (and implicitly the State of NJ=my tax dollars) has decided not to subsidize travellers who choose to take AirTrain and NJ Transit to New York.
As Charles G has pointed out, the commuter fares for this ride don’t have the surcharge/no subsidy built in, so the full fare is aimed squarely at the air traveller to New York.
There is no sound economic reason to discriminate with transportation subsidies based on residency.
There is a political reason: politics is in effect a popularity contest, so politicians try to please their potential voters at the expense of others.
No, but the PANYNJ does.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/06/nyregion/06CLOC.html
Peter (Nostalgiaddict) drew my attention to this great page over at Arrts archives.
Here's a link to the history and many old photos of the Fresh Pond station, and of the Glendale station. Anyone even slightly familiar with these areas will find the historical photos fascinating:
http://arrts-arrchives.com/mxpond.html
http://arrts-arrchives.com/glendale1.html
Notice how the third rail electrification from the Rockaway branch extended down onto the Montauk Branch to Glendale.
Here's a fascinating bunch of photos for the location where the M line crosses the Montauk Branch at POND:
http://arrts-arrchives.com/df.html
Continued....
Penny Bridge Station
What is that locomotive? It looks awfully a lot like a MBTA diesel...
Arrt's Archives is as good a resource on the LIRR as this site is for the subway system. Where else can you learn about such obscure branches as the Evergreen and the White Line? It's really cultivated a strong interest in me with LIRR service, past and present, within the city.
Passangers boarding at Fresh Pond and Glendale in these days could easily have electrocuted themselves.
True, but many of the early electrified stations had similar situations. Remember, most stations were low level for years after electrification came through. The Whitestone branch was particularly hazzardous. Not only was the low platforms right at the same level as the third rail, but the third rail was actually at the platform edge as opposed to in between the tracks at College Point station, Whitestone, etc!!! In some photos I have seen, they actually go out of their way to move the third rail from "safely" between the tracks before the stations to moving it to platform edge in the stations!!
I think though it'd be better for them to simply tie this in with the new tunnel under the hudson that NJT is begging for, and from there, follow the ARC plan, which calls for a new tunnel either along or under NYP, then under the east river to LIC, where it'd connect with the Lower Montauk I think(I think there is also a plan to include a track between the new East River tunnel and NYP, allowing trains operating via the lower montauk to go to NYP). It'd probably be cheaper and it serves to purposes at once.
That's a pretty decent idea. One of the problems is the congestion on the mainline (through Forest Hills, etc). It would be great if they had an alternative route. The DM30's could send direct trains from the diesel branches to Penn via the Montauk Branch. The added bonus is the freight. The thing is though that the freight can not go through Penn, so I still think Bay Ridge is better for the Freight tunnel. How would the freight be dealt with if the new tunnel was connected via Penn?
At the east side of NYP, a few tracks would once again merge with the freight tracks, which do NOT go through NYP, but rather below or around it. These tracks that have merged will then go under the East River via a new tunnel, then exit the tunnel onto the Lower Montauk in the LIC area. A new underground LIC station can probably be built under the existing one.
That's the ARC plan(to the best of my knowledge).
My idea is the same sorta. Only difference is that the freight tracks would go under NYP. Once under NYP, the tracks would either:
1. fan out to form a new lower level of NYP(probably 8 tracks wide). All tracks would have platforms, 4 total.
2. The 8 tracks merge into 2 again at the east end, then go up to the Lower Montauk via ARC plan, with a new underground LIC station
or
3. Once comming in from LIC under the east river, the 2 tracks would fan out to 8, with 4 platforms. The 2 centermost tracks would continue into the new Hudson River tunnel, which would also be used by NJT trains to NYP. The other 6 tracks would simply end at the west end of NYP.
The thing with my plan is, LIRR can possibly have room on a new level for some more trains via the lower montauk, which would be all DMs.
NY Daily News story
See, another reason why cameras, from cell phones or digital cameras, are useful in the NYC subway. If the photban took effect, then what will the officer, who was summoned inside the station, do? Write up at $25 summons for unauthorized picture taking of a violent felon who just held up a Payless Shoe store earlier, just because the thug happened to walk into MTA property?
THE SYSTEM NEVER WORKS! IT SCREWS THE INNOCENT!
The (4) WoodlawnBowlingGreen
Look at it this way. If Robert Mizell hadn't of stuck up that shoe store with a bogus gun, there wouldn't have been any Police action and no innocently shot paralyzed boy.
But since d*ckhead made the choice to commit armed robbery that set these events in motion, he wouldn't be locked up and will do time for armed robbery. He made the stupid choice and now he's slammer bound.
Your suggestion of taking the cops gun and badge away and shooting him in the leg is a bit much. Blame goes to Mizell. I guess criminals aren't one of God's more intelligent creatures.
Bill "Newkirk"
You know people make mistakes. Its terrible that because of people like you, almost always liberal (which I'm assuming you are, because I can't comprehend a conservative making a statement like that)!, a police officer has to always think twice before he pulls out his gun to shoot someone.
I think you should be a shamed of yourself for saying that he should be shot, because he was only trying to protect anyone from being shot by a person who appeared to have a real gun. And if he really did, there might have been a very tragic scene at 4 Ave and 9 St. A lot worse than just some kid who got shot in the leg and released from the hospital on the same day.
-Broadway Buffer
That is not a liberal statement. I consider myself a liberal and I have many friends who are liberal and none of them have ever said anything remotely resembling that statement.
That is a radical statement.
-Broadway Buffer
-Broadway Buffer
-Broadway Buffer
There is no such thing as a liberal extremist. Those are two totally contradictory words.
There are left-wing extremists, socialist extremists, etc. But that's a different set of people.
Incidentally, there are no conservative extremists either. A right wing extremist is a radical, not a conservative.
:)
I welcome the next generation of subway artists...
NY Times link
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/06/nyregion/06sketch.html
It is the trucks that turn somewhat when the wheels go around a curve.
But forgive me, don't know which equipment has and doesn't have the "feature" ... folks like me just boarded, charged them up and did our job number, hoping for lunch on the other end, whatever our interval put in our face. :)
Someone DID mention that the 142's had an extra system on the trucks.
Anyway, here's a picture of R142A trucks, And here's one of R142 trucks. Substantial difference.
John
I get a good look at some Metro North wheels at the rt 311 r/r crossing in Patterson & it just amazes me how small that "extended" section of the wheel is that ...I guess most folks, self included, think holds the train on the rails.
It just amazes me it does.......but WTF....
Actually, they don't need to be all that profound because of one of the other aspects of train wheels that perhaps are noticed only by folks in the shop. The "treads" are not flat, but rather conical in shape (if they were a few feet wide, they'd look like traffic cones) so, aside from curves or excessive track-hunting, the flanges actually rarely touch the inner surface of the rail. Thus, you don't really need much there.
Guess this location.
I wanted to give you the answer, but I thought a second look would be more appropriate. The reason will be the shock value of the answer, especially to one particular Subtalker on this board. Having said all I can, just name the station and location of the mezzanine.
Next time, you can do a search in the Subtalk archives and check only the boxes in the query search.
I hadn't seen the film in awhile and forgot how dark a film it is.
I have a few q's about the film.
Were the scenes at the IRT stations in the first 45 minutes of the film actually 3rd Avenue el stations or were they actual Jerome Avenue stations? The ironwork at the stations in the movie looked to me a lot like the ironwork of the 3rd Avenue el stations in the Bronx.
Also, the far shots of the IRT train heading southbound revealed the stanchions holding up the structure. They looked a lot like the 3rd Avenue el stanchions, which were more ornate than the later Jerome Avenue line stanchions because they were older.
Finally, were the '39 World's Fair cars ever used on the Jerome IRT? Or only on the 3rd Avenue line?
Also - how accurate was the interior of the WF car used in the movie?
I believe the '38 WF Steinways worked the #7 line then transferred to the 3rd Avenue El. They may have seen service on the Pelham inbetweens. Not sure about the Jerome.
wayne
Pretty accurate. The movie company contacted St.Louis Car Co. for original specs and built a wooden mockup of the car.
Bill "Newkirk"
As I recall, either the mockup was built as a double-ended car (cab at both ends), or else they only built part of a car, and shot the same end of the mockup to represent both ends of the car.
By the way, the TV show that it was based on, from 1963 or 64, used a mockup of an I.R.T. standard car.
Guess this location.
I wanted to give you the answer, but I thought a second look would be more appropriate. The reason will be the shock value of the answer, especially to one particular Subtalker on this board. Having said all I can, just name the station and location of the mezzanine.
It's not on the subway. It's in the ZOO. Next to the LION's CAGE.
You can tell this because the tiles are so new and neat, and so unlike ANYTHING on the subway!
: ) The Broadway Lion!
I'm stumped. I'll stop posting.
...now WHY would Kool-D even -BE- near a holding cell??? :P
Regards,
Jimmy
1. The picture is a renovated mezzanine, the first look are the diamonds on the tile band across at the top, that is pure BMT style right there. So we are looking at a renovated are that is along a BMT station.
2. I NEVER stated the station was renovated, just the fare control area around the mezzanine. So the area was renovated, but the platforms and the rest of the station is not yet renovated.
3. The biggest clue that two Subtalkers were eyeing on was the classic 007 "SHOCKING" line, which came from "Goldfinger" (1964). Now mention the word gold, and the likeness of gold would be the BMT Broadway line (even though the trunk line is yellow), so we are looking at any station along the N, Q, R and W lines. Make the answer really SHOCKING as to the location, the only location would be the Sea Beach line and yes I could say if you mentioned any station along the Sea Beach line, I will give you a pat on the back.
The location is 17th Ave P/T HEET entrance of 18th Ave on the the Sea Beach Line. Congrats Arrow III and edk256 for the best answers. (Ironically, me and Arrow III were at that same station with Brian and Fred when we were waiting for a S/B N train to 86th Street as a means to kill some time.)
Oh Fred, did I say THEY ACTUALLY RENOVATED PART OF A STATION ON THE SEA BEACH LINE. NO KIDDING.
It's about time. With the N on the bridge, ridership appears to be rising.
Back when I lived there, it was 630v DC Broad St.-Richmond/Watford Jct(same as LU). When I last went there in 94, class 313 were still using third rail at Hampstead Heath. Class 313 normally runs on 750v when under DC power. Any changes made to the stock so they can run under 630v DC?
Richmond-(630v DC)-Acton Central-(25kv AC overhead)-Camden Rd-(750v DC)-North Woolwich. (Variations before that : Richmond-(630v DC)-Dalston Jct-(25kv AC)-Liverpool St, and Richmond-(630v DC)-Willesden Jct-(25kv AC)-Camden Rd-(750v DC)-North Woolwich)
Euston-(630v DC)-Watford Jct.
Gospel Oak-(diesel)-Barking
Am I right? Is it technically possible to have both 25 kv AC catenary and 750 v DC third rail installed on the same tracks? I don't think 313s are dual-voltage trains; only the 319s used on Thameslink and some South Central services are dual.
Of course. At Acton Central, the 3rd Rail ends at 1m71c, whilst the OHLE ends at 2m07c, giving a dual electrified section of 16 chains! Likewise there is an 8 chain dual electrified section at Farringdon between the Northern end of the station (0m66c) and where the Moorgate branch diverges (0m58c). There is a longer section of dual electrification at Dolland's Moor (between Sandling and the Chunnel). OHLE starts at 66m25c, whilst 3rd Rail ends on the Up line at 67m32c and on the Down at 7.94km(=68m2c), giving 1m7c of dual electfification Up and 1m57c Down.
I haven't been on the NLL fo a long time, and I didn't realise that they switched modes at all - I thought DC third-rail trains ran all the way through, but that certain sections *also* have overhead lines, which are not used by the regular passenger trains.
What dual-mode rolling stock does Silverlink use on the NLL, then?
Class 313/1, 34 3-car units (DMSO+PTSO+BDMSO), numbered 313101 to 313134, refitted 1997-2002 by Bombardier in Ilford, prior to refit numbered 313001 to 313034. The fleet is shared with Euston-Watford.
It must be to let the train in on one and out on the other ! :-)
BTW, after browsing some sites, I was led to believe that Acton Central-Richmond is now 750v DC. It was certainly 630V DC when class 501 were running there. The D stock are supposedly able to handle the 120v difference. (It's just info I got from some sites, not absolutely positive on that one)
'R Stock' used to have problems with blown fuses leaving Richmond- if the 'deadman' was held in 'Parallel'.
The R stock lasted longer than class 501? (assuming class 501 was 630V only)
I was on a northbound (2) train signed up as headed for 148 Street (R142 cars), and before 125 Street, the signs blanked out. When the train got to 135 Street, the crew directed everyone to leave the train, as 135 Street was the last stop, while all the exterior signs continued to flash, "TO HARLEM-148 ST." So everyone got off the train, and waited for the next train to arrive. Many of the crowd got on the next (2) train to arrive, which was going to Wakefield. The remainder got on a (3) train. However, I wanted to ride a (2) train to 148 Street.
When the next (2) train signed for 148 Street came in (and this was a train of R62's), the conductor made an announcement saying that if you wanted to go to the Bronx, get off and wait for a Bronx-bound (2) train. I thought, "OK, this one is running to 148," so I got on. A moment later (and by this time, only those who were headed for 145 or 148 were on the train), the train crew was told to discharge.
(2) to 148th Street. Ha! What a load of bull!
If the train was signed for 148, why not let the train carry passengers to 148, and not let them be PO'd 90+% of the way there? If the "geese" are not intelligent enough to hear an announcement, or read a sign, then they should be penalized for it.
On the upside to this whole ordeal, I did manage to ride a (2) train of R142 cars from 148th Street, but it skipped 145th Street FSSR, and there were no announcements until 135th Street. When the announcements were turned on, the train acted as if it was entering Nereid Avenue, and was reprogrammed at 135th Street, so that it would make proper announcements from there on down.
Here are pics from my journey.
Between Times Square and 72nd Street
72nd Street
96th Street
135th Street
Lenox Terminal
Lenox Terminal.
It's the 148th st station.
Inside this pamphlet, there is a picture showing part of the exterior of the R143, arrow pointed to the exterior speaker, and a caption, "Outside speakers so you can hear train announcements before you get on." In this picture, there appears to be two sets of LED signs, each saying, "L MONTROSE AVENUE,” one in red LED's and one in orange LED's. It looks like two people are holding up the orange LED sign to the window. Were they testing out which looks better?
http://www.nationallampoon.com/flashbacks/deteriorata/default2.asp (about 750k in size, Shockwave Flash)
Back in 1972/73, if you heard it on the radio in NYC, you were listening to my show on either WLIR, WNEW or WPLJ (where they fired me for playing it)
So I left WNEW and put up a pirate FM in the Bronx called WXVU ... played EVERYTHING I wanted. :)
Why did PLJ fire you for playing that? It’s pretty innocuous stuff!
At least that's the way it works at the HUD!!!
But the AM and FM bands are a vast wasteland. E Pluribus Radio.
The MTA really needs to work on it's contingency planning. And if the employee on the platform whom I cursed out for being rude and unhelpful to over a hundred confused people waited for a D train which never came lurks or posts to Subtalk, I'd like to renew my "you're an @sshole" insult, because you sir are a royal one.
Yet at 3:50, still nothing but N's running on the N line leaving Stillwell. Not good.
There was a police investigation somewhere on upper 6th Avenue (47-50, maybe?) around 7. At least one F was sent up the express; V’s were nowhere in sight (although one may have morphed into an E—I did see an R-46 E train at 7th Avenue); my B, which had been delayed extensively (and got stuck behind the aforementioned F express), was sent up the CPW express, but not until 59 Tower took so long to give us the lineup that we may as well have been sent local.
wayne
I was about to say the same thing.
When something out of the ordinary like that happens you have to stop and think. The N's there for a reason. TA brass didn't wake up at 3:20 and say "Hey, we can send Ns to CI."
> There was a police investigation somewhere on upper 6th Avenue (47-50, maybe?) around 7.
You win... a ride on a rickety ols R42. This one was botched majorly too.
Other aspects of this situation were also botched. The N I was on was held south of 86th St for 3 minutes while another N went into service. My train basically ran empty at 10 MPH behind another train. We should have been sent up the West End. There were massive crowds at Pacific St, without a clue that there was no D train service. I heard no announcements, but I wasn't in the station long.
Yes, but what? And when will it be over? Is it a momentary problem? Nothing's worse than taking an out-of-the-way detour right before normal service is restored.
Because they were coming down the West End? If you send Ns up and down on the West End, it leaves no service on the Sea Beach.
My beef isn't with how service was rerouted, but how these reroutes were communicated to affected riders and the indifferent, contemptible attitude the MTA workers showed towards the confused crowd today.
David
It never ended for the F line yesturday. After that mess was done a police investigation and sick customer at Roosevelt made sure the F continued to run late.
And all the complaints about the B&D service during the reroutes and no complaints about the F! During that whole mess we got Bs and Ds constantly but an F was rare. I think at the height of the mess we got an F every 20 min to an half hour because they were being plugged by the reroutes.
KUDOS to Stillwell F who was miraculously able to make all of his intervals pretty much on time, despite the fact his trains were few and far between. I'm guessing he used a few putins early.
In addition B3 was out for a GO at the beginning of this mess, which made things worse. Had we use of B3 Bs and Ds would have terminated at 18th Ave (which happened later on, actually 3 intervals before yours did terminate at 18th Ave). I guess Church Ave never told you but you too were supposed to discharge at 18th Ave (you were the one who did come down the middle in service, right?)
Does anyone know what it is used for? It's visible from the extreme north end of the station.
-Julian
Once upon a time The Franklin Shuttle was The Brighton Line. The platforms at the time were of normal length. Despite the rebuilding of the line, I don't think the platforms have been extended.
"Except there they run short trains so those stations do platform the full length of the train. In that case, you can also include the Franklin Avenue Shuttle."
Read the quote, thats why I said s/he means the normal stations, rather then shuttle. And as you can also see, the station was meantioned before you.
And I never said any time period either -_-, but its obvious hes asking the current and not the past. Do you understand now? Because you always seem to not understand.
"But the Franklin Shuttle platforms were never extended. In fact they were shortened when it was rebuilt in the last few years."
I'm not sure on the length of the platforms, but if there just gonna run a 2 car train back and forth, theres no reason to have a 4-10 car platform.
"Neither were the platforms at South Ferry or 145 Street."
Well its understandable at SF because if they made too much of a curve, it'll end up like CH, disused due to dangerious train access, even with the gap fillers. :/
And I got no clue about 145th St.
"Neither were the the shuttle platforms at TS and GC."
No reason for them to be extended as they became a Shuttle Line, and no need for a longer platform. But wasnt they long anyways, just shortened to make way for that "temp" crossover?
Are we reading the same posting? He is asking: "Are the only two stations in the NYC subway system not long enough to platform an entire train (are) 145th St on the 3 and South Ferry on the 1/9?" Someone else added the shuttle platforms at TS and GC. I saw no mention of "Time Periods" by you or someone else. Place a quote where someone says that. And before you jump on me (again) the Franklin Shuttle platforms have not been extended. And they are still in use as they were 85 years ago when the Malbone St Crash happened. That should satisify your demand for a "Time Period".
"I'm not sure on the length of the platforms, but if there just gonna run a 2 car train back and forth, theres no reason to have a 4-10 car platform." I believe at the time of the Malbone St crash and Brighton Line service running over the Fulton Street El, The normal consist for a BRT train was 5 cars. You probably won't believe me. But I don't care.
"No reason for them (the shuttle platforms at TS and GC)to be extended as they became a Shuttle Line, and no need for a longer platform. But wasnt they long anyways, just shortened to make way for that "temp" crossover?" Who has said anything about why the platforms were extended? It's a given that the platforms were extended several times in the last 100 years. All I read was just a question about "Are the only two stations in the NYC subway system not long enough to platform an entire train 145 and South Ferry?" And the answer is "No. There is GC and TS on the 42 Street Shuttle and the stations along the Frankiln Shuttle." What don't YOU understand about that?
I still said I didnt talk about time periods. And DUH, I knew the Franklin Shuttle platforms were in use, because I been living in Brooklyn for 18 yrs, so I been knowing that. -_-
And quote where I saw the stuff? I already gave you the quotes, dont know what else you want.
"Who has said anything about why the platforms were extended?"
It was a question you "DOUCE" Head. Not a sarcasem question. You always seem to know nothing on what anybody is saying. I been reading, have you?
"What open for service stations in the New York City, New York, USA, Earth, Milky Way Galaxy, subway system are currently not long enough in length, as of today, July 8th, 2004, to platform an entire train that typically runs on the line the platform is serving?
I don't have a problem with disparaging comments against Americans in much the same way.
Vertically.
Remember longer is not always better.....it's what you do with it...eh the platform that is .
Seems pointless to me.
At some point they realized that it wouldn't make sense to send all Lenox trains to the Bronx, but that more Lenox service would be needed than Bronx service, so they decided to build a terminal on the yard spur at 145th Street and not build the station at 141st.
The Jerome line was not planned at that time and was not built until 1917. When it was completed, it had a connection to the 6th/9th Avenue els, so there was no need for a connection from the West Side subway. In the 1940s and 1950s, there was a proposal to build a ramp in the Lenox Yard to connect to the 9th Avenue El (over 8th Avenue) and thus to the Jerome Line. It was probably shelved because the Jerome line doesn't need all that much service, especially with the 6th/9th Avenue El connection being effectively replaced by the Concourse Line.
-- Robert K. Elder
Published July 2, 2004
Q. The elevated train sequence from "Spider-Man 2" looks like it could have been shot in Chicago, but isn't Spidey a Manhattan hero?
A. Yes indeed, Spider-Man (played by Tobey Maguire) hangs his web in the Big Apple -- but Chicago provided the backdrop for a key battle sequence in "Spider-Man 2." Explains Richard Moskal, director of the Chicago Film Office: "The director wanted to stage a fight scene between Spider-Man and Doctor Octopus on the top of a moving 'L' as as it carved through the downtown canyons [of skyscrapers]."
But, because Manhattan island has few elevated tracks, director Sam Raimi brought an effects crew to Chicago last year, "to replicate New York with a fictitious sense of geography," Moskal says.
The web-slinger and Doc Ock were digitally added in postproduction. Maguire and fellow stars Alfred Molina, James Franco and Kirsten Dunst were not part of the Windy City shoot.
Even an IRT car is larger/wider....
HA..!..It's Okay..
Spidey can swing anywhere he wants to....
But DON'T DRESS UP CTA TRAINS TO PASS OFF AS OUR GREAT SYSTEM.....
HA..!..It's Okay..
Spidey can swing anywhere he wants to....
[not that there's anything wrong with Chi town]
But DON'T DRESS UP CTA TRAINS TO PASS OFF AS OUR GREAT SYSTEM.....
alrighty then......
LOL
Since when could Spiderman teleport? =)
-Julian
I just used my imagination, thinking that this scene happened on the 3rd Ave El.
Does anyone have a video of the 2200's where the doors open/close? I don't think I've ever seen the doors open/close on those cars.
Try http://www.chicago-l.org/, I think thats where I got the video from. Specifically I think it was taken at O'Hare, so try that section.
Hopefully you enjoy the rest of what OTP has to offer.
Click here
Beep Beep Beep Beep Beep - SLAM!
What are a few notice-able differences between the two????????
On the R142, the top of the front storm door is separate from the rest, on the R142a, it is not. Here is a picture of the R142a. Note the non-separate front storm door.
And here is an R142. Note the separate top of front storm door.
The R142/R142a have different acceleration sounds. The R142a sounds like an electronic whine, increasing in pitch as the train accelerates. The R142 sounds a little like the three note NBC theme (or *slightly* like a violin).
Hope this helps,
--Julian
P.S. Someone should put this in the FAQ!
One is Canadian, one is Japanese. LOL. But some differences are with the LCD(or LED) signs on the sides and route sign. R142's flash while R142A's change instantly. Another is that R142's have a larger storm door window than the R142A and below the side-windows, the R142A has a small belt notch while the R142 has none. Overall, I find the Kawasaki R142A a much better riding car IMHO.
Regards,
Jimmy
-Julian
Was I seeing things? I don't think R40 Slants have been used on the F line since the R46's came out.
David
Don't know if it was a wash run but it was a Concourse-CI transfer.
Wouldn't make much of a noticable difference anyway.
LOL
-Broadway Buffer
I think the washer was out at Concourse over the weekend, so a buncha light trains went back and forth to CIY
-Julian
In fact, I don't remember slants ever being used on the F in the pre-R46 era. I used to ride that line a lot as a kid and I remember riding R1-9's and R-40M's and R-42's, but not slants.
Jimmy
David
Regards,
Jimmy
Regards,
Jimmy
Raeson 2) R-40 slant is going to another yard to get a car wash because Coney Island car is not operational right now.
Reason 3) Some re-rout. Too bad you didn't get the letter on the front.
Thats all I can think of. :-)
-Broadway Buffer
Jonathan
My wife and I want to entertain our kids (girls, 14 and 12) for a few days with a nice amusement park, and the choices are Wildwood, NJ or Hershey Park, PA.
I'm familiar with Wildwood and think it's great. It's about 3x what was Coney Island was 40 years ago, when Steeplechase was still open. For Hershey Park, I worry about long lines. What do you guys think?
Koi
FWIW, my daughter - who has ben to both Wildwood and Hershey - picks Wildwood as the place to return to.
If you like boardwalk strolls, a really nice wide beach, and proximity to Atlantic City (besides the casinos, a nice NJ Transit rail terminal), go to Wildwood. The amusements are all individual but are clustered along the boardwalk. No really big hotels - but loads of small seasonal hotels and motels.
If the beach isn't your thing go to Hershey. It's one large park, sort of a small Busch Gardens without the country themes. Nice exhibit about chocolate making also (no extra charge). Besides the usual small hotels/motels the Hershey folks have one or two large hotels adjacent to the property. For railfans, the RR Museum of Pennsylvania and Strasburg RR are nearby.
Lines can be a problem at both particularly on weekends. Try to go mid-week.
Wildwood or Hersey Park?
I wasn't thinking roller coaster rides when I read it, I was thinking of another kinda....
(Yes, I have a dirty little mind :)
Wildwood also has the CMSL in nearby Cape May Courthouse.
Hershey is a nice park, but it's mostly roller coasters and I'd rather go w/my cousins & friends to enjoy the rides more
To each his own, I guess... we entertained our four children (and now our two grandchildren) with a variety of museums and experiences oriented towards making them better appreciate the world around them - culture, history, science and technology, all types. For what you'll spend at either place you can take them to Williamsburg (and I don't mean Busch Gardens, either), to Boston (but not during the DNC), to Washington, or any number of other places where they will be exposed to the heritage and culture of this country, or even another (Ottawa and Québec City come to mind). From an amusement park they'll come away with a few tacky souvenirs and a passing thrill; from any of the other places they'll come away with a broader outlook on life and a better appreciation for the world around them.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
(Side note: when I was their age the museums of New York were all FREE and accessible, and the big libraries were open long hours, and I enjoyed them to the hilt; but don't take my memories of Coney Island away)
If your daughters love rollercoasters, then Hershey Park would be my choice hands down. The lines are not that bad; I was just there a few weeks ago, and all I did with my kids was go on the rollercoasters, and we didn't wait too long for any of them. Hershey has several wooden rollercoasters including one that that has two trains racing each other. I think the park has 11 overall.
If you would rather have more of the general experience "Coney Island" style, then go to Wildwood. But good luck trying to get a hotel / motel room there now. I'm sure you'll find one, but it might be $$$$.
And there's always that "tramcar" on the Wildwood boardwalk, and Sea Shell for ice cream ... yum !!
--Mark
8?D Jimmy
Gray US flags
Gray yead stickers
Gray interior
Gray motorman!!!!!!
Nice try faker! Go get yourself a frap-a-chi-no while you go think up another one. And I suggest you get a venti one with an extra shot of espresso, cuz you're gonna be up for a while being able to make something which will actually trick us.
;-) Broadway Buffer.
The Kerry camp leaked some disinformation to the PEST. They sucked it up hook, line, and sinker. That is called Conservative MANAGEMENT 8?)
Well, I guess the Kerry camp would never leak any disinformation to the Old York Times, cuz they would never want to misinform other liberals.
God forbid he becomes president & will seriously need some liberal management. I already need it just to tolerate liberals like yourself. And I think we should bring back the K train just for him. It can run through Manhattan on either 6 Ave or Bway and end up in what I've gathered to be a liberal area, Sheepshead Bay!
-Broadway Buffer
I need liberal MANAGMENT!!
Year 2035 News
Ozone created by electric cars now killing millions in the seventh
largest country in the world, California.
White minorities still trying to have English recognized as
California's third language.
Spotted Owl plague threatens northwestern United States crops and
livestock.
Baby conceived naturally... Scientists stumped.
Couple petitions court to reinstate heterosexual marriage.
Last remaining Fundamentalist Muslim dies in the American Territory of
the Middle East (formerly known as Iran, Afghanistan, Syria, and Lebanon)
.
Iraq still closed off; physicists estimate it will take at least ten more
years before radioactivity decreases to safe levels.
France pleads for global help after being overtaken by Jamaica.
Castro finally dies at age 112; Cuban cigars can now be imported
legally, but President Chelsea Clinton has banned all smoking.
George Z. Bush says he will run for President in 2036.
Postal Service raises price of first class stamp to $17.89 and reduces
mail delivery to Wednesday only.
35 year study: Diet and Exercise is the key to weight loss.
Average weight of Americans drops to 250 lbs.
Massachusetts executes last remaining conservative.
Supreme Court rules punishment of criminals violates their civil rights.
Average height of NBA players now nine feet, seven inches.
New federal law requires that all nail clippers, screwdrivers, fly
swatters, and rolled up newspapers must be registered by January
2036.
Congress authorizes direct deposit of illegal political
contributions to campaign accounts.
Capitol Hill intern indicted for refusing to have sex with congressman.
IRS sets lowest tax rate at 75%.
Florida Democrats still don't know how to use a voting Machine.
Koi
http://english.eastday.com/epublish/gb/paper1/1323/class000100005/hwz201820.htm
http://www.iht.com/articles/528262.htm
http://www.nypress.com/17/27/news&columns/RichardKostelanetz.cfm
The "press" hasn't been scoring well lately. :(
Plus about 15 minutes walk from Brighton Station to the beach (I walked it yesterday). But it *isn't* the tube, it's national rail. Even closer to London is Southend-on-Sea, which has pretty frequent trains on two routes, but is still not on the tube. No real sea is accessible by the tube. Berlin's Wannsee is a pretty big lake, and in the days of the Cold War and the Wall, it was the best that the West Berliners could do for the "seaside".
London Victoria 1002 (front part of train!)
Chichester (Station) 1148
Chichester (West St) 1205
West Wittering 1227
Journey time: 2 hours 25 minutes
Very OT, but vines will grow in Sussex, so there must be quite a bit of sun on the English South Coast.
Anyway, other capitals of the world that have beaches accessible by public transport in an hour or so exists. I'd rather not limit the mode to the subway if the luxury is to "leave at noon, swim for an hour and even take a nap before returning home for dinner". You can do that in Tokyo and Athens as well. There are probably others too. Also the writer seems to think that NYC is the capital of the US.:p
But man .. Biff and Bunny talking head, Candy ("Have anothe KRISPY KREME, sweetie:) COWley on CNN, and the clueless Jennifers that walk into the photo-op, grab a press release from the table in the back of the room and head back out to the lobby while the "event" goes on to IM their latest boyfriend out where there's a signal. Aggggh. No WONDER people actually believe Saddam blew up WTC. :-\
The POST and THIS are, unfortunately, NO surprise. :(
Fun Pass works just fine, so for the round trip to Long Beach it's $7 vs. $8 (2 + 2 then 2 + 2).
David
-w.e.s.
Then there's the Jersey Shore that can be reached from 34th street with NJ Transit. I like Long Branch alot and if you take a bicycle, all the beaches for 10 miles are accessable like Asbury Park.
The ocean east of Beach 60 actually got rougher until about Beach 39 St; in fact, surfers would come to our block after normal beach hours. East of there, the water would get progressively calmer as you were actually swimming in the inlet between Rockaway and Atlantic Beach.
There was a large public area that was built around Beach 17 St, but it is really only accessible by automobile.
Beach 35 St was a center of activity for people who came out for the day. All the amusements, restaurants and shops you long for were available either on the boardwalk or on Edgemere Av, which ran parallel to the subway in that area. Unfortunately, many times "riots" would break out, so the police stationed a paddy wagon right on the boardwalk as a deterrent. It was incidents such as these that contributed to the "urban renewal" of the area.
Rockaway was a fantastic place for the people who lived there in the summer; it was at least 10 degrees cooler than "the city" (usually Brooklyn or the Bronx), particularly at night; you can work a job in Manhattan and, thanks to the subway, (and the LIRR before that,) still commute daily; and, best of all, the relative freedom of being steps from the street and beach and ball fields after being cooped up in school and an apartment for 10 months.
Large portions of the Rockaways are deserted. The very begining of the beach where the housing projects are located is deserted. I rode my bicycle along the entire boardwalk and it's incredible how the beach front changes when the neighborhood gets better.
As crazy as it seems, I noticed the same thing along the Jersey Shore. All the Blacks and Hispanics were at Asbury Park which is a shadow of it's former self. Yet, Bradly Beach has a wonderful amusement park but you'll find very few minorities. All the caucasions were at Bay Head and Long Branch.
Contrary to popular belief, gentrification is not as widespread as one would believe.
So is the community there Armenian, Azerbaijani or Georgian?
Plus, the opposite bank is a dead ringer for the rocky beaches of New England. Bonus!
Surf's up, dude; I can smell the Sea n Ski already!
Your pal,
Sandy
First pic is of the trailer, second one is an aerial shot of the places 'clubhouse' w/ resturant, pools, gameroom, etc. I took a pic of a photo on the wall inside the clubhouse.
See y'all on the MOD trip!
-Chris
Sorry to kinda hijack your thread here man! Glad you had fun! Happy 4th to you too.
-Chris
-Chris
Mark
From what I've heard, it's a place of spectacular beauty, considerably larger than the Grand Canyon, and the only access is by rail.
I suppose if you want to find a train that is heading towards Mexico, you could try to find a line of cars being pulled by a locomotive that has a royal-blue livery and golden yellow letters on the side that reads "FerroMex". :)
I saw one of these "FerroMex" locomotives not to long ago.. it was coupled to a Conrail, a BNSF, and a UPRR locomotive pulling a 45-car line.
Mark
Again, none of the maps are available to be mailed or sold. At this point, my only suggestion to interested parties is to contact WMATA directly and see what they say. I have gotten the maps through them before in the past.
You should shoot some of your pictures in the future at an angle that shows both the station name and train destination signs. I have a picture of Farragut North destination sign behind a Greenbelt pylon that I took on the last year that the Green Line shortcut was run on Independence Day.
This way you can let the picture tell its own story.
John
I don't think many pictures of the Green Line trains on the A and B routes exist. It is too bad...
Because of the unique designs of the Rosslyn vault not showing the station name is not that big of a deal.
I don't think many pictures of the Green Line trains on the A and B routes exist. It is too bad...
I will have to go through my archive, but I think I might have a couple at Brookland that I shot on the same day.
John
Can anybody shed any light on what the status is of D5 track over the Gowanus Canal? I was through there the other day and noticed it closed and overgrown. Has D5 been permanently abandoned or is it out of service for a works project?
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
Centennial Commorative Edition coming July 12th
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
Centennial Commorative Edition coming July 12th
It's getting to be that time again. I go to press this weekend, so I'm looking for any last-minute details that you can think of.
What I have already:
* Temporary Bronx station closures for rehabbing. Two of them on the 4, one on the 2/5, IIRC.
* New B-style signals on the 2/5 from Mott right up to the end, excepting E-180 and Dyre.
* D5 OOS over the Canal
* New alignment kinda-sorta ready at Nassau, but on hold until further notice.
* Stillwell alignment.
* 2 x-overs out permanently south of Howard Beach.
What I know I need:
* The final alignment for the Nassau St. line - I thought I had it, but there appears to have been some changes just before Essex St.
* Clifton Yard layout on SI
* Any schedule updates on CBTC implementation.
* Any schedule updates on the Flushing line's re-signaling and track work.
* Any tower changes since earlier this year.
* Finalized track plans for the new terminal at SF.
* Car/Yard roster post-Stillwell
* Anything not covered here but in progress.
This will probably be the final release of the book for 2004, barring anything unforeseen. I'd planned on coming out with the Fourth Edition for the early New Year, but those plans have had to be pushed back until next summer or so.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
Centennial Commorative Edition coming July 12th
This month's Bulletin from the NYD-ERA mentions that it will be reopened for "transfers" at some point.
This month's Bulletin from the NYD-ERA mentions that it will be reopened for "transfers" at some point.
I'm having trouble understanding why this is an improvement. This is a station with heavy tourist traffic, and reopening the middle platform will probably confuse people who aren't regular riders. (People entering the station will decend to the middle platform when they need a local. People wanting to transfer from express to local will alight on the middle platform by mistake.)
The idea is to open the platform for transfers -- i.e., as an IRT underpass.
In the past, whenever there were trains waiting in Tracks 1 AND 2, passengers entering via Lippmann Plaza had to guess which train was leaving next, walk over to that particular platform, and then stare about 100 feet down the platform to glimpse at the old "NEXT TRAIN/LOCAL/EXPRESS" sign in the distance. If they guessed wrong, they had to walk around to the other platform. I guess the MTA finally realized this was a complete waste of time.
The new sign eliminates this stupid 50/50 guessing game.
When I passed through the station yesterday evening, the sign had read: "<-- NEXT TRAIN"
However, I'm sure that it can say other things as well, depending on the situation. I'll keep you guys posted.
But they do need to make sure the next train signs are working correctly as it was telling people to goto one track while the opposite wall track was the next to leave(and yes the downstairs next train sign pointed to the train unlike the one upstairs).
-RJM
R-32.
- LotIRT
R-32.
Thanks anyway.
R-32.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
R-32.
That's no big deal at Main St. though. There are stairs midway down the platform to cross over or exit through the turnstiles if you wish. That's if there is no train on the middle track with both sides open - crossing over isn't even a thought then.
R-32.
R-32.
Perhaps, but why would you want to upset, displease or otherwise inflict yourself on other people. There will be another train. Woud you like to be cut through by someone else in a hurry.
Let's walk down the hill and do them all.
Moo.
Elias
R-32.
Well, maybe I misunderstood how you meant that. I guess I imagined you cleaving through people rather than crowds. But then, I can move prety quickly through crowds myself, and sometimes hear comments from others for doing so.
Elias
"and sometimes hear comments from others for doing so. "
That's because many New Yorkers are very rude; not wanting to accomodate others' space when they rightfully should. Some don't appreciate the magnitude of their rudeness; they think they're being themselves, or doing what everybody they know does. I was one of them until I learned the world has other manners. The last time I was in NY, I was coming up the steps at 138th St. G.C. with my suit case, having just come from the airport. This fat girl comes down the steps my way with a group of friends and is going to act like she doesn't see me. So I refuse to move ( as if, where would I go; she was a two ton elephant and I was against the right side of the staircase as it was) hoping she'd get the hint six inches before the point of contact. Well I brushed her shoulder and she gave me a screwed up face. I kept on trucking. There are many other instances like so, that I've faced in NY, that don't happen with quite the same frequency anywhere else.
R-32.
I read the tread about door openig methods in Paris and thought,- does all those levers and buttons bring any convenience for passengers?
Why not just automatically open all doors when a train is stopped on a station?
SMRT(Singapore Metro) too uses the PED's.
RATP l14 uses them.
Mainly all APM's use them.
Theres more I know I'm missing, but this should give you an idea.
" I don't know exactly the reason why are they made such way, most probably becaus of safety or ground conditions. "
There made so people can less kill themselfs using the train, helps keep climate control, and less garbage on the tracks. Not to meantion, the train can come in at a high speed and not worry about people looking over the platform.
http://www.metrowalks.ru/spb/photo-3-7-1
Do you mean the same construction?
About the train speed, I heard the opposite opinion: the train
have to arrive on lower speed because it may not miss the doors.
Sometimes it misses and has to return a bit backward, I was catching
at this.
But if you mean the large glass doors with metal frames, those are what I'm talking about.
The train can come at a normal/high speed just like any other train, but wont have to slow down due to people looking over the edge, etc...
You say you hear about the train having to slow down, that's bull, if it were like that, it'll slow the system down even more, and I have watched tapes with stations using PED's and they come in at a normal/high speed.
The platform edge doors that other posters have been describing along the new stations of the Jubilee Line in London are not incorporated into the station's structure in the same way; the stations are built like other tube stations in London, as a widening of the track tunnel, and the platform is only closed off from the track by glass in a light steel frame. In addition to preventing suicides and keeping in the air-conditioning, the platform edge structures control air pressure in the tunnel, allowing the trains to accelerate more effectively. The platform doors are indeed a nuisance to operate when the trains are under manual control; they were designed with the understanding that the Jubilee trains would be run by computer.
Since the St. Petersburg subway was designed without the possibility of computerized operation, I'd assume that some structural necessity did require that the platform walls and doors be included, despite the operational difficulties they involve; my guess would be that the waterlogged soil throughout the Neva delta was the problem they're supposed to solve.
These are not just openings, they have steel doors which open simulateneosly with train doors:
http://www.metrowalks.ru/spb/photo-3-4-2
>even Moscow has the platforms entirely open to the tracks, no?
You are right, all Moscow stations have opened platforms
>Since the St. Petersburg subway was designed without the possibility >of computerized operation,
Computers were quite uncommon in the times when those stations were built (1955-1975).
>The platform doors are indeed a nuisance to operate when the trains >are under manual control;
You are talking about the rare cases when a motorman miss platform doors, aren't you? Probably, a computer can make this work more precision and at higher speed.. Anyway, I prefer a live man in a control booth.
>my guess would be that the waterlogged soil throughout the Neva delta >was the problem they're supposed to solve.
However, in most waterlogged places such as near the quicksand which provoked the tunnel damage on Line 1, all the stations have the common platforms entirely open to the tracks. For Example, Mujestva Square station even hasn't one column. I believe those platform doors are closely related with high underground soil pressure.
It is the Jubilee Line that has them, but only the 1999 extension, not the old part of the line. I just call them platform doors.
1) It keeps the heat or air conditioning in the car when the door doesn't need to be used (especially at outdoor stations);
2) It saves on wear of the door mechanisms;
3) When those doors slam shut in Paris, they are noisy; it's more pleasant if sometimes you don't have to hear it quite so loudly;
4) It allows one to continue to lean on the door if no one is getting off or on (I don't think the Transit bosses think that's a good reason).
http://www.thejournalnews.com/newsroom/070704/b0107goingplaces.html
Thank you for sharing this with us.
Don't forget to join us at the September Photo Ban Protest, all organized by The Joe if you can.
http://www.citidex.com/map/subway800.html
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/209862p-180823c.html
-Broadway Buffer
And why $2 a pop.... I'd thought their business was that of the $1 fare..
Mightst just buy a commemorative card, plain sam.
So then, it's really NOT necessary to call the cops.
You *could* just call out for some Krispy Cremes to be delivered, and the guy would flee the station.
Of course then you would get FAT on those donuts, but what the heck.
Elias
Survaliance cameras are needed. when you see a swiper at work, let him swipe a few people in, then arrest him
Problem solved
While one can make very reasonable arguments that the Rockefeller drug laws were overly harsh, it is almost impossible to argue that they failed to dissuade many from entering that trade. (It can also be reasonably argued that those same laws led to the degree of violence and level of profits involved in the drug trade).
The options for penalties are fines, community service and jail time. Fines are likely to be uncollectible from most of your average swipers. Community service is probably both unenforceable and ineffective. Jail time costs $$$.
It comes down to what NYer's want. I suspect that (like they do with prostitution) they will choose token enforcement efforts with slap on the wrist penalties.
CG
I was in NYC 2 novembers as for a hotel tradeshow with 70something of my peers. Me and some girl[who's running away to kentucky i think :( ] were using the subway to run around the city.
I swipe my card and go through the gate
she swipes hers and it doesn't let her through.
A scuzy looking guy came over and offered to swipe and said you can't reswipe for up to 17 minutes.
I don't know if she caught on, but I quickly realized we're not in Orlando anymore. I remembered we're in the great NE and I've been approached by more talented bums during my stay then FOX has on reality shows. This guy is up to something.
Ignored him and I exited and we went on our way outside the man-sewers.
Now, if i had said yes and he swiped, is he going to ask me for money AFTER I accept? NO WAY. That's my problem. Unfortunately from these boards I know the deal now. But as a tourist i'm not paying this guy pretending to be a good samaritan.
Maybe if I said yes and then he asked for a dollar before hand that would avoid this, but I dont' know how sneaky these people claim to be.
I am quite confident that swipers collect the money before swiping.
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/newyork/politics/ny-nybrig073883631jul07,0,816588,print.story?coll=ny-nycpolitics-headlines
“Anyone seen taking photographs is going to be questioned,” said Richard Maloney, a spokesman for SEPTA, Philadelphia’s public transit authority, in a recent Time magazine about railfans. “The wide-open spaces and the freedom we have enjoyed to meander almost anywhere is gone.”
It’s a sentiment shared by John Almeida, profiled in the Time magazine article, who chases train every day during lunch hour.
I certainly DO NOT share those sentiments! No one has taken away our freedoms yet, but they ARE trying very hard. The following just happened yesterday.....
CSX C770 derailed at least a couple of cars while shoving back into the Bucks County Ind Park across from Woodbourne Yard on the Trenton Line. SEPTA was running trains on Track 2 between Wood and Nesh while CSX and SEPTA personnel dealt with the cars. Half of the train was pulled south of the switch and sent back to Woodbourne while about 5-6 cars and one engine were on the BCIP trackage.
Went to Fairless Jct, gave my card to some employees there and asked to take a few pics at a distance, after which an employee who I presume was the foreman yelled "OUT OF HERE!", which I did. Went to the public overpass and got pictures of the cars and dirty looks from the crew on the ground. Then went around to the JC Penney warehouse, gave them my card and asked to take some pictures from inside their gated parking lot and a guy in the office said OK. Got my pics, then found out that guy was not THE GUY. When he approached me (actually honked at me from his car), THE GUY said he was told that CSX had just chased me away from the scene! I explained that I had asked and received permission from someone at the office (how the hell am I supposed to know who in the office is supposed to give out the permission slips), and I left. Then went to the parking lot of the ind park to get some more shots when another guy from CSX approached me in my car and said "Didn't we tell you to get out of here!"
That was it, I almost lost it. I told the guy I wanted his card. He
asked why, and I said I wanted to know how he could tell me to get out of a parking lot THAT IS NOT CSX PROPERTY. He backed off, and at that point I let him have it, logically speaking. I explained everything from why the people in BCIP did not know about the derailment in their back yard (because CSX did not tell anyone), why he and everyone else from CSX think they can do and say anything they want anywhere they want, why he was concerned with me when I was nowhere near the derailment (he blurted something about security issues and the ubiquitous "9/11" - what the hell that has to do with CSX putting cars on the ground is unfathomable), why there would be "privacy issues" (his words) regarding me taking pictures of the scene that is in public view and concerns the well-being of us all. I also told him about the article in this week's Time Magazine about Homeland Security recruiting truckers to keep an eye on things "suspicious"
http://www.time.com/time/archive/preview/0,10987,1101040705-658321,00.html
and asked why not enlist us railfans (who on the whole seem much more
enlightened than the gear jockeys in the article). I wish I had recorded the tidal wave of frustration that I unleashed on this guy about the stupidity and arrogance running rampant in our society. In the end, I left and hopefully at least one CSX employee had something to thing about.
I have had it with morons. I am mad as hell and I am not going to take it anymore.
No, it hasn't. You're taking it for no logical reason, Mr. Maloney.
-why are you stopping people taking pictures? is it against the law?
- when your own cops break your own regulations by smoking on MFL station platforms (next time I see it, I'll take a pic of 'em)
- when your own cops cant enforce basic Septa regulations like smoking, littering, 'cracking forties' on the subway.
As an aside, remember just after Sept 11th, we weren't going to change our habits, etc, when that would be 'giving in' to the terrorists? Well, it looks like the terrorists are winning, with a little help from the dept of homelnd securitie, plus our local friendly transit agencies.
Just hold your hand out and demand to see their ID card. Reject it if it is not a photo ID card, and explain to them that they have no RIGHT WHATSOEVER to even suggest that you suspend your freedoms as an American.
Write down his name and information, and then ask him the name of his supervisor, and what department that he works in.
Inform him that you have rights to take pictures, that the Taliban and AlKida did NOT win the war, and that you will report him to his superiors and to the authorities for infringing on your rights.
Now we did have a rail wreck out here in North Dakota, happend less than one mile from my front door, but would you believe nobody in town heard anything. Apparently hoppers full of coal do not make much noise. I guess the coal attenuates the sounds.
Pictures were no problem, even from RR property. I guess with a wreck in town they must have figured that there was no way to hide it anyway.
Elias
ask the FEDS why thy started this stupid crap...or rather ask your greedy ass president and is father about it...
it a damn shame how the powers that be have be allowed to play on the public they way they have been doing lately
all in the name of ''HOMELAND SECURITY''....
makes me ill,I tell you....
Can't wait untill our Creator returns,to make them suffer for this....
http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200407/200407070044.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/07/nyregion/07profile.html
(Original publication: July 7, 2004)
http://www.nyjournalnews.com/newsroom/070704/b0107goingplaces.html
When David Sommer walked around the corner from his home and started pointing his new digital camera at some cool-looking railroad equipment on the tracks south of Mount Vernon's Fleetwood station, he had no idea he might be flirting with danger and testing the limits of civil liberties.
Sommer, a 43-year-old self-described balding rail nut, was just hoping to shoot a prize-winning picture. The grand prize in a Trains Magazine contest, photos of railroaders at work, is a $2,000 digital camera, a far cry from the $89 model he's now using.
But Sommer looked suspicious — at least to a woman working in a nearby office building. She called city police. As Sommer held the camera over his head and shot frame after frame of a track equipment car and a ballast-spreader, he suddenly found himself surrounded by five police officers, the lights in their squad cars flashing.
For the next 30 minutes, Sommer was questioned about who he was (an out-of-work Web content developer and former taxi driver), where he grew up (White Plains) and what he was doing near the tracks.
Sommer said police suggested that given these security-conscious times, his camera would be better aimed at ducks in a pond. After a thorough grilling, Sommer was told it might not be a bad idea to delete his rail pictures. Then he was told he was free to go. "I have no objection to police questioning me,'' Sommer said yesterday, as he showed Going Places where he peeked through the overgrowth to take pictures of waving track workers and their equipment. "I think they did the right thing by confronting me. But once they established who I was, they should have left me alone. I think there's a little bit of hysteria. It's easier just to say go away, but I don't want to go away.''
Besides, Sommer said, much more potentially sensitive information is already in the public domain. Holding up computer printouts he made from accessible Web sites, Sommer showed a page from www.citidex.com with a detailed map of Grand Central Terminal, with all of its entrances, exits and tracks labeled, and another from www.railfan.net that diagrams the switching stations, tracks and platforms at Penn Station. "I doubt the photos I take would help any terrorists,'' Sommer said. "There's far more usable information to someone who has bad intentions already out there. They don't need my stupid little photographs to stage a terrorist attack.''
Mount Vernon Police Chief Terrance Raynor said police were obliged to investigate every complaint, but agreed Sommer had a right to pursue his hobby.
"My guys would be irresponsible not to follow up and forward that information to the proper authorities, whether the MTA or the Office of Homeland Security,'' Raynor said. "Once we determine they pose no threat, they can absolutely go about their business.''
Sommer tried again Saturday and Monday, but again was shooed away — this time by Metropolitan Transportation Authority police. He was on the platform at the Fleetwood station taking digital pictures of progress on the widely publicized Third Track project, which will bring more frequent train service to customers along the Harlem Line when it is completed in September. Sommer said he was told that he could not stay on the platform without a ticket and that, with one, he could not remain there after the train departed.
Such strictures could get even tighter. The MTA, the parent agency of Metro-North Railroad and New York City Transit, has proposed new rules that would curb the rights of amateur photographers to take pictures within the subway system. Critics contend such a ban amounts to overkill, but MTA spokesman Tom Kelly said the measure was recommended by the New York Police Department to heighten security. Kelly said that it was intended to protect sensitive areas such as tunnels, but that anyone on a public road can photograph whatever he or she wants, including MTA trains, bridges or equipment. Based on what he was told of Sommer's photographic forays, Walter Zullig, former special counsel to Metro-North Railroad and current regional vice president of the National Railroad Historical Society, said city and railroad police had probably overstepped the necessary boundaries.
"This sounds like classic overkill,'' said Zullig, who lives in Ossining. "Things like this have been happening in the Northeast. There is nothing that any railroad enthusiast is going to get in a picture that is not readily available in a book or on the Internet. To say to people you can't take pictures is ridiculous. Having said that, I would not condone walking on the tracks or going into nonpublic areas, but standing on a street or on a platform or an overhead bridge, that's a public facility. All we can hope is police can use some common sense.''
This is an appropriate police response. No railfan should object to being questioned, but once the benign nature of the photography becomes obvious, they should be left alone.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
If you're waiting for a certain train and you are observed whipping out the camera, photographing the train and putting the camera away, wouldn't that raise more suspicion if you are being observed ?
At least with my camera bag, I look like photographer. If a terrorist wants to photograph sensitive areas, he's not going to lug a heavy camera bag, he'll do as you do.
Be careful John, don't act too suspicious.
Bill "Newkirk"
I just hope that this chaos will eventually come to an end. However, I agree. Hanging around, whipping the camera out and putting it away immediately can be more suspicious than just taking a picture normally. I think there should be a medium between what was said about "quick pic taking" and hanging around a station for 20 minutes taking people. What I'd suggest is if you see something cool while waiting for something, take out your camera, take a few pics. However, don't loiter and whatnot. Of course, I'd probably be too nervous to take my camera out anyway, lol.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Don't expect any lessening of terrorism paranoia if Kerry gets elected. He'll be trying to prove that he's not soft on defense and national security, and as a result may overcompensate and be even more paranoid than Bush. The one difference is that John Edwards won't be playing the Dick Cheyney role in the terror fight, as he'll be too busy chasing ambulances.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101040712-660960,00.html
"Individuals seen taking photos of landmarks and other potential targets are not usually arrested (it's not illegal), but U.S. officers check their pictures and enter their names in an interagency record base.
[... examples of suspicious photographer incidents ...]
Any or all of these incidents, of course, may have been innocent. But federal officials are reviewing them and urging local law-enforcement to be vigilant against a possible terrorist strike this summer or fall."
Remember, most CCTV systems can see what you are doing some of the time or see where you are all of the time, but they can't see what you are doing all of the time.
The goal here is to make it administratively hard for cops to do this sort of thing. They know that if they do, they are likely to have to deal with questions and paperwork back at the station. Easier to leave the photographer alone…
That they have the right to do. The trick is to have a ticket and show up 2 minutes after the previous train has left. That way they can't shoo you off for 28 minutes (or longer).
Though I do visit other places sometimes. Still, Mineola is my number one photo spot.
I know they make cameras with wireless remotes, so you can frame your short ahead of time and then hope for the best, but remote viewfinder would be the bee's knees.
I absolutely agree with you that the technology has matured to a point that the bad guys will be impossible to catch and all the ban will do is annoy the honest citizens.
"There was a fence between tracks to keep people from crossing"
Wasn't this a standard thing at stations with low level platforms. Everyone keeps saying, low levels encourage people to simply walk across the tracks wherever. Well, why not go back in time and put a fence between the tracks. Give the station a nice old time feel.
Hey Nimby, this isn't from my memories (it's from a bus calendar) but check out this picture of a Freeport grade crossing from 1953. By the way, the Hempstead Bus Company still was running those exact same Macks in my neighborhood on Front Street on their East Meadow routes (today's LI Bus N-48/49) well into the late 60's.
Was Hempstead Bus headquartered on Floogle Street in the same building as Susquehanna Hat?
I get bored in one location too long, so my photographing style I guess helps me quite a bit. I have never gotten harrased yet (at least not recently, I had years ago, but that was my own fault, and another story). I usually don't stay in one place for more than two or three trains going through. I mean how many photos of trains do you need at the same angle anyway!
Why do you feel compelled to resort to juvenile name-calling? From what I've gathered, you're well over 50. Too old for that nonsense.
Train Dude doesn't like to be dissed, as I learned to my woe. I sure hope you don't mind being belittled and put down, as you're going to be getting plenty of it. Basically, he thinks that peons like us aren't fit to wipe his bung hole, and won't hesitate to tell us so.
Well, if you think you can handle it, that's fine, but let me tell you it's not easy being Train Dude's doormat. You have been warned.
Well, mikey, as you get older you'll find that quality is more important than quantity. BTW: You don't count each finger seperately if that's your criteria of more.
What kind of point is he making? That cops are cowards that sh-t in their pants? I mean I have to assume that is what he means by "depends patrol". And that cops would rather harass photographers than arrest real criminals? That is a pretty serious accusation. And an untrue one at that.
Surely you would agree with the following phenomenon, though:
- Cops are expected to be productive.
- You can be productive by arresting criminals and stopping crime, or by writing summonses.
- The vast majority of cops would rather stop crime.
- A few lazy ones would rather write summonses. When they don't see any valid targets for summonses, they pick lousy targets, like people who park 14.9 feet from a hydrant, improper lettering on business awning, subway photography, etc. The Daily News has a field day with the mischief created by these relatively few lazy cops.
I cannot understand why Train Dude has such a fetish about Qtrain. Granted, Qtrain's lifestyle leaves something to be desired, but TD's obsession is just plain weird.
Now, as long as we're on the subject, peter, perhaps you'd explain something to me. Why do you feel so compelled to defend this loser? Furthermore, others here are more critical of him than I am. Why don't you criticize them as well. When I suggested that you do, the last go-round, your response was "Not a chance." Perhaps you'd like to explain your double standard.
BTW, why do you seek to embrace the lowest common demoninator?
I thought I'd explained it already. When Qtrain makes one of his "Depends" postings, you have a habit of attacking his lifestyle, without trying to counter the point he raised. It sure seems as if you can't think of a good response to his main point, and therefore resort to a cheap lifestyle shot. Other people have criticized his lifestyle, me included, but they don't do it in order to avoid having to deal with the issues he brings up.
Looking back through the thread, it appears that your "see above" comment referred to something Jeffrey Rosen had said. I have him killfiled, so that's why I didn't respond to his posting.
"No one is totally useless. They can always serve as a poor example"
It would make more sense if you addressed the points he raised rather than poking fun at his unproductive lifestyle. For instance, the next time there's a "suspicious package" alert and he goes on about the NYPD wearing Depends, instead of saying that the police have jobs unlike him, try to point out why there is still a risk of terrorism and that suspicious packages can't just be ignored.
While the MTA cannot provide a sense of security for the most nervous among us. It must provide a sense of security for the majority. If banning pix taking makes the public feel safer then the MTA needs to ban photo taking.
The proposed photo ban is more scare tactics coming out of DHS.
We just heard Tom Ridge announce another "Al Queda is going to attack the US" item. No hard info, no increase in the "magic" threat color code.
I've heard it here, I've read it in other (non-rail) places: THE TERRORISTS ALREADY HAVE THE INFO THEY WANT!!!. It's all over the Web.
There are published works on the Tracks of the New York Subway. Hard copy - bound book.
I am sure you realize that the suicide bombers who blow up buses in Israel didn't use a photograph. They just paid a fare, rode and observed and planed accordingly.
I am also sure that the McMurrah Building was not photographed by Timothy McVey before he parked that box van in front of it. He had blueprints that he obtained from the city.
The World Trade Center was hit by two airplanes used as guided missiles because our intellignce agencies screwed up, and didn't co-operate. Read the 9/11 Commision report. I did, and what scares me is that 3 years after 9/11, the intellignce agencies still don't cooperate.
I look at a photo ban as just more "window dressing. It won't add 1 iota to the overall security of the New York Subway
I'd have to say that my tolerance for risk is different from yours, without necessarily being greater or lesser. For instance, I wouldn't try motorcycling, but I have little or no fear of terrorist attacks.
While the MTA cannot provide a sense of security for the most nervous among us. It must provide a sense of security for the majority. If banning pix taking makes the public feel safer then the MTA needs to ban photo taking.
I highly doubt that the MTA conducted any sort of ridership survey before proposing the photo ban. Indeed, I strongly suspect that if riders were polled, most would have the sense to realize that a photo ban would do little or nothing in terms of making the subway more secure. The MTA says that the proposed ban is the NYPD's idea, and one thing which seems clear is that the NYPD is extremely risk-adverse, more so than it should be.
Again, based on your level of tollerance to risk. Perhaps to the average commuter, people standing along the ROW(presumably) taking pictures might be a bit more dis-quieting than you might realize. Then again, that's what the issue is about. My problem is that q-ball only sees things from his "peter-pan" view of life. He's openly contemptuous of anyone who is more cautious than he is. He's openly contemptuous of people who do their job in a way that he disagrees with even though he has no idea about how to do any job. Yet he's also openly contempuous of people who make him feel insecure such as "gangstas." His constant use of the "depends" bit is just very disparaging to many honest people who want to feel more secure. Those same people are the ones - in large part - that support q-tips 'peter-pan' lifestyle.
False statement and illogical. If a majority of the riding public feels better because anyone speaking a foreign language and wearing a turban or a thobe and gutra is strip searched before boarding a train, should we do that?
Common sense must have some influence here. and your statement is unsupportable.
There's no logical basis for a photo ban.
Are you promoting a perception of security over actual security?
If the public feels safer if the C/R does a somersault before opening the doors, would you suggest that C/R’s be required to do somersaults before opening the doors?
It must provide a sense of security for the majority. If banning pix taking makes the public feel safer then the MTA needs to ban photo taking.
That's an interesting thought. Do you actually think that the MTA is proposing the photo pseudo-ban (i.e., permits required) because it will make the majority of the public feel more secure? That's the first less than totally cyncial potential explanation for their motives that I've heard.
Or maybe he, like me, simply believes that these "terrorist" threats are grotesquely exaggerated. It's not necessarily a matter of how much one has to lose.
HA!YARIGHT!!That's the one thing the NYPD and the MTA DON'T DO!Everyone in both places are full of people with ZERO common sense!If they had any common sense,we wouldn't be fighting against a photography ban.Not only that,I'd GLADLY throw a huge party celebrating the start of the People With Brains Era which will mark the end of the People With No Brains Era.
Da Hui
I arrived at IRM shortly after noon. The trolley parade had not yet started, so I boarded the Nebraska Zephyr for a jaunt down the mainline. The train itself looked good even if it smelled a bit musty inside. The ride was smooth and quiet. And yes, it was pointed out that this same train was used for A League of Their Own.
After the 40-minute round trip, I was ready for a ride around the loop on the Green Hornet (I saw it at the Depot stop earlier), but they announced that electric cars were not running on the loop because they were queuing up for the parade. While passing the barns, I saw that Blue Goose 4021 had received a front roller curtain, so I snapped a picture. I then made my way down to the area where they were gathered and saw an impressive lineup: Matchbox 1374, Old Pullman 144, arched roof 3142, the Green Hornet signed up as a Clark car carrying a 22-Clark Downtown front sign, a three-car train of 4000s, a three-car CA&E interurban, a three-car train of 6000-series singles, a two car 6000-series train, a couple of North Shore trains and some work equipment.
The parade itself lasted an hour and a half. When the Green Hornet was announced, the announcer added, "You may not hear this next car as it approaches." Sure enough, 4391 glided smoothly and quietly into view as a typical PCC would. All of the cars looked great, especially the three-car set of 4000s. Perhaps the only disappointment of the day was the fact that the 4000s made their only appearance at the parade and did not run on the mainline as I had hoped. I listened closely as they pulled away from the reviewing area and sure enough, they moaned and groaned the way any other prewar car did.
After the parade, it was time for a ride around the loop. 1374 approached and kept right on going without stopping. No big deal; I rode on it eight years ago. 3142 was next and it stopped to pick up passengers. I let it go hoping the Green Hornet would be next, and a minute or so later, there it was! We lined up at the rear doors and the conductor opened two of the three sets. It was a dream come true as I boarded and took a seat near the front. At first the conductor didn't ring the right bell indicating it was safe to proceed. He must have rung the fare register instead. The motorman had to help him out. Finally the right ding-ding sounded and the motorman bing-bonged the front gong. It was a healthy-sounding bell pitched in G. Off we went! 4391 looked and ran great. Because of the many curves, we couldn't build up much of a head of steam, but at one point the car did accelerate quickly. I listened to the doors at each stop as they opened and closed and concluded that they sounded very similar to the doors on the 6000s (imagine that!). I was so excited to be riding on the Green Hornet at last that I stayed on board for three full round trips.
After the third round trip, I got off and transferred to 3142, which was just ahead of us. It was a front entrance car. I made one round trip and decided to take in the steam train on its last run of the day. It pulled a passenger train of older steel coaches. I boarded the last car, a Rock Island commuter coach that weighed about as much as a BMT standard. By the time that trip was over, it was 6 o'clock and time to leave. My entry in the guest register summed up the entire day: outstanding!
Frank Hicks
Hopefully it won't be another eight years before I have a chance to come out again.
Honorable mention goes to the 4000s as well as the Big Orange South Shore cars. I rode on them for one round trip to Chicago just before we left South Bend in 1967.
And as I've said before, I remember the 4000s very well, but never had a chance to ride on them. The fact that the three-car train in the parade was signed up as an Evanston Express was icing on the cake because that's where I used to see them. My aunt admitted she's become an Evanston Express addict even though she has to backtrack from Howard back to Bryn Mawr after taking one from the Loop.
http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=15340
This is an interesting article about why we should replace mass transit with motorized transport. It questions, why should we subsidize rich long Island riders going into Grand Central Station?
The article makes a point, if we took the jobs out of the cities and moved them into the burbs, the traffic situation would get a whole lot better for everyone. He went on to state that car sharing could be done for as little as $700.00 per month!
It's a good read folks but the whole article was nonsense.
Obviously Wendell Cox has not spent much time in NYC. Otherwise he would see that it is extremely difficult to move in Manhattan with the vehicles that are there now.
Move the jobs out of the cities and into the suburbs? Yeah right, then all you have done is move the congestion from one area to another.
This guys is a visiting professor at the Conservatoire National des Arts et Metiers in Paris. Good. They can keep him.
Good observation.
You would figure a city like Paris would produce a transit minded professor instead of a pro-motor hack.
That's the National Conservatory of Arts and Jobs
i don't know anything about it, other than the direct translation I did from French makes no sense. Et je ne rire pas.
"Arts et Métiers" is usually translated "Arts and Crafts", a movement in Art/Architecture of the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th Century. IINM, the CNAM is their equivalent of this organisation. The only relevance any of these guys have to transit is that there's a very nice station on the Paris Métro called Arts-et-Métiers.
Nothing but gridlock and additional spending on highways that are busy only two times a day
As for transit spending. It is time we start spending out transit dollars wisely. MTA currently waste billions on antiquated business practices mostly on the backs of people who drives cars
It makes me laugh when people complain about a $2 transit ride
the transit subsidy on Varazzanno narrows bridge is nearly $4 plus 50 cents a gallon on gas taxes meanwile MTA nyct runs long trains overnights, leaves the lights on in closed token booths, leaves MVM's on all night even though a simple command in windows NT is capable to turn off and turn on the computers according to the stations operating hours plus wake on lan if an update needs to be sent overnights.
Station angents - who needs them. Simply create a vendor program similar to NY lotto where local merchants encode metrocards in return for a small royalty. Presto huge cost savings that could be spent better other places
Yes, I work in Jersey City right near the entrance to the Holland Tunnel so I know all about the gridlock.
They guy just hates public transportation which is why he doesn't want any further expenditures to support the system. The car-share program at $700.00 dollars a month does not include parking, traffic tickets, gas and tolls. A monthly MetroCard is less than $100.00 dollars and you get much more for your value.
Yet another load of crap. I guess they're growing stronger dope these days.
The point of transit is to get people off the roads, rich and poor. When you buy a car, both the private sector and the government needs to shell out to support your purchase. They need to build and maintain roads. They need to build parking areas. They need to deal with the effects of pollution and the loss of open space. Having centralized urban centers with well planned out transit systems feeding them is the most efficient way to get people from where they live to where they work short of having self-contained factory towns.
BTW, I also think that the reason that the poor don't buy cars is NOT because cars are expensive as a stand alone purchace. Maintaining a car is where the expense comes in. Cars require several thousand a year in maintainence, INSURANCE, registration/fees and $2 a gallon gasoline.
This guy should be dead, like Robert Moses.
This article is just about the biggest over simplifacation I have ever come accross. How do you serve people who can't drive for one reason or another? What happens when all the cars break down in 5 years cause the poor can't afford to fix 'em? What happens to the cars that get into accidents? All this guy is proposing is shifting the variable costs of transit back on to those that can ill afford to pay for them.
The 1990s were a boom time for public transit, but now even with oil prices rising, even Los Angeles, long considered the highway lobby's largest bastion (never mind PE and LARy and all their faithful riders), saw the construction of a large commuter network (admittedly diesel, but it's a start), as well as two LRT lines and a Subway. In post-1950s america this is almost unprecidented, and it was repeated around the country in varying proportions. But now with oil prices rising, and public transit doing some demonstrable good, the people whose job it is to make sure we stay in cars are running scared. Thus the reason for this report and all the other stuff. We're gonna keep hearing more and more crap from the truely hardcore right denouncing public transit with all the old cliches they can spout. Really the only strategy is to develop a hard head to their idiocy and hope that some good statistics will beat their invariably bad statistics.
To a certain extent I can see where Mr Kocks is coming from, it'd be nice if we had a public transit system that wasn't a money sump, it'd make new systems a lot easier to sell. But it'd also be nice if our roads were't such a burden, and then you have airports, ferries, and all other expenditures the government throws money at and expects little or no return (the military or NASA anyone?), you can't justify cutting public transit when you have all the other programs out there hemoraging money left and right. People will not pay outrageous rates to have privatized roads (imagine a user fee for side streets in neighborhoods), and as such why should public transit have to prove itself by making money? The projects cost about the same, probably less if you think about something like the Big Dig or I-676 in Philly as compared to the SAS or Philly's Center City Tunnel, a rail project costs more to operate and maintain, no doubt there, but the efficiency and capacity of a transit line is vastly greater for a train than for a roadway. For one a crowded train does not crawl along like a jammed highway does...
Exactly.
Still, I'm saying that public transportation(meaning all forms, rail, bus, ferry, w/e) is not just for the poor. It just so happens to be that the poor are those who generally take advantage of such a system.
And what really pisses me off is this guy was sayin stuff like people without a car can't get certain places that people with a car can. That's absolute bullshit. Anyone with legs, a bike, or even a wheelchair can go just about anywhere a car can(that is, as long as the nearest transportation service is within a reasonable distance). As fast? In most cases, probably not, though that can be fixed relatively easily(more direct routing of buses, and longer bus routes, and better connection times.
But that's exactly his point NK. At some point building transportation services to everywhere doesn't make any sense because the cost so badly overwhelms the number of potential users.
And it's different from the Long Island pattern, which generally plays as a further extension of the Brooklyn and Queens transit lines serving an extension of the street grid pattern. I.E., east/west linear r.o.w.s fronted by commercial and retail areas and lined by residential districts off the roadways, with periodic north/south routes as you proceed laterally.
New Jersey is east/west oriented too, but it has an older history of being settled. The geography is different from the Long Island sandy loam flatlands. The towns are on top of hills, and alongside rivers, or near "forests". There are huge, huge industrial districts both old and new, and amazingly dense pockets of sedate residential sections next to them, intersperced with fields and other open land. Long Island has no place like Little Falls, or the rail bridge between Perth Amboy and South Amboy, or Gladstone, or even Fort Lee. Plus, there are honest small town downtowns all over New Jersey. You can walk along country roads between the towns. (Many with bus lines on them, like "the old days".) Towns actually start and end over there...
The trains generally run on modern day remnants of fallen flag roads, each with their own history and layout. You could easily spend a long day doing some ad hoc transit adventuring over there. Like, take a ferry to a light rail to a bus to a train to another light rail to a bus to a bus to a train to a subway...passing through 10 or more different towns and cities. You'll be crossing rivers and valleys and pass through old cities and spot hidden lakes and paralleling busy limited access highways and going under village streets with ice cream shops, shoe stores, libraries and movie theatres. It's a whole `nuther matrix over there.
His point fails because he fails to include the big picture.
80 percent? Hmm, how do all those poor people in rural areas where there is no public transportation get around? Pickup trucks and dirt bikes are not subsidized.
But he has no criticism for the direct subsidy of roads, waterways and airports. Yeah, what a point he's trying to make.
How 'bout we bury Wendell Cox alive with his idol Robert Moses. J/K - but seriously, I wish he would just go away and take everyone who takes him seriously with him. They could go live on some deserted island where they'd never have to see another train or bus again as long as they lived.
Good point. I suspect the writer is taling about people living in Downtown LA but in Manhattan, you'll ride right along side with very wealthy individuals.
It's your attitude that's keeping America from progressing towards the more sensible alternative.
It is so almost everywhere.
It's not just for them. It's for anyone with half a brain that knows they can save a truckload of green using public transportation
Except that public transportation in most places is slow, infrequent and inconvenient. Why would anyone with half a brain use public transportation in such circumstances when a car is faster and more convenient? And one wouldn't save a truckload of green either. In most places, parking and roads are free.
and probably save themselves a good deal of aggrivation too
On the contrary, riding mass transit provides a great deal of aggravation. If I were to ride a bus, I'd need to arrive at the bus stop in time for the bus, if I just missed the bus, I'd need to wait another 12 minutes for another one. And if it was Saturday, 30 minutes, and on Sunday, 1 hour. And I have to make sure to come home before Midnight (1 AM on Saturday night, 7 PM on Sunday) or else have to walk home from the all night bus that runs every 50 minutes.
All the while I'd have to sit around while the bus stops at every street corner and waits for oold ladies to pay their 50˘ fare with pennies.
If I were to take a car, I'd drive around quickly to where I needed to go, have the air conditioner set to exactly the temperature I want, the radio as loud as I want and the padded seat adjusted exactly like I want.
Of course, it has to be made somewhat convinient.
Well obviously. A car will always be more convenient. The only way transit wins is when the car is made sufficiently inconvenient, such as when driving to Manhattan.
It's your attitude that's keeping America from progressing towards the more sensible alternative.
I think you're misreading his post. He's stating a clear fact about transit in other parts of the country, and not his own opinion of it.
America will never progress "towards the more sensible alternative" unless urban planning shifts away from low density sprawl towards medium-high density developments with a transit orientation and walkability.
Not to mention other goodies like smoking your cigarette/cigar, eating, drinking your soda/juice/etc, driving barefoot, and other behavior that is verboten on Public Transit. If you like to indulge in such actions , then driving is for you. If none of that is important, then use transit.
On another topic concerning driving:
Most people who drive often cite that the time in their car as they are driving alone, is often the ONLY time they actually have to themselves on an average day. Between work and family, that time alone is precious, and that many people probably do not want some stranger intruding on their space, a common occurrence on a Public Transit vehicle.
I grew up in Mississippi where you could always count on room for five or six pine trees, two possums, and an armadillo between you and the next person. Like most people in the U.S. I was used to a cushion of space around me. When I moved to Philly it was unusual to crowd into a subway train twice a day to get to work, but you know I got used to it pretty quickly. As for time to myself, you quickly learn to shut out the world around and create a psychological coccoon for yourself. Now I couldn't imagine fighting a traffic jam twice a day. (I much prefer getting to read on the way home.) Come to think of it, I often hear that people who do commute by car hate fighting gridlock, too.
I think there's an awful lot of people who are fed up with their auto commutes, and would ride transit if only transit were available. It's the goal of the authors of the report that started this thread to make sure such alternatives don't become available, lest people start riding trains and buying less gasoline, etc.
Mark
The same goes for me. I tune everything else out while on public transit.
My I need a little time, I leave a little earlier and either walk across the park to the IRT or BMT or get off in Downtown Brooklyn and walk over the Brooklyn Bridge. The former adds 15 minutes, the latter perhaps 20.
All of those are legal on mass transit except for smoking.
Eating and drinking is not legal on certain systems, e.g. the DC Metro.
Did I not say we still have to make transit faster, more frequent, and more convinient? And even so, someone who can't handle a service every 10 minutes really needs to slow down.
"Why would anyone with half a brain use public transportation in such circumstances when a car is faster and more convenient? And one wouldn't save a truckload of green either. In most places, parking and roads are free. "
Let's see, b/c to take LIB, all you need is $72 a month, while driving a car requires gas, insurance, etc, etc. Parking may be free, but using your car certainly isn't.
"if I just missed the bus, I'd need to wait another 12 minutes for another one"
Are you serious? You're bitching about 12 friggin minutes! Geez. And like I said, public transportation has to be made more convinient, so the other things in that scenario you mentioned are moot.
"All the while I'd have to sit around while the bus stops at every street corner and waits for oold ladies to pay their 50˘ fare with pennies. "
Oh c'mon. Way over exagerated. First of all, no one pays with pennies. Second, low level boarding really lowers the amount of time needed for the elderly or anyone to board. Third, a bus doesn't stop every block.
"have the air conditioner set to exactly the temperature I want, the radio as loud as I want and the padded seat adjusted exactly like I want. "
Congradulations. You're the most picky person I've ever met.
"The only way transit wins is when the car is made sufficiently inconvenient, such as when driving to Manhattan. "
Which is exactly what will occur if what this person is proposing is done.
I have one suggestion for you. GET REAL!
Long Island Bus is worse than say, New York City Transit with longer waits and less all-encompassing routes. It is not an alternative to a car, it's an alternative to nothing. Also remember that Long Island Bus, even to achieve the level of service that it does for $70 a month requires heavy subsidies. If you subsidized them equally, then the price advantage would go away.
Are you serious? You're bitching about 12 friggin minutes! Geez.
12 minutes is a lot when compared to 0 minutes.
And what is it with this "friggin?" We need euphemisms for euphemisms now?
And like I said, public transportation has to be made more convinient [sic], so the other things in that scenario you mentioned are moot.
No, they're not. Since how much more convenient can you make mass transit? Have all the seats padded? Make it run every two minutes?
All the while I'd have to sit around while the bus stops at every street corner and waits for oold [sic] ladies to pay their 50˘ fare with pennies.
Oh c'mon. Way over exagerated [sic].
So what? It's still slower than driving.
have the air conditioner set to exactly the temperature I want, the radio as loud as I want and the padded seat adjusted exactly like I want.
Congradulations [sic]. You're the most picky person I've ever met.
We've never met. :-)
Anyhoo, why should I concede all those things that I've mentioned? I like sitting in a padded seat, I like controlling the air conditioning and I like controlling the radio. Societies that forced their people to sacrifice for the good of society for a prolonged period of time don't survive.
The only way transit wins is when the car is made sufficiently inconvenient, such as when driving to Manhattan.
Which is exactly what will occur if what this person is proposing is done.
Huh? If driving is made sufficiently inconvenient and transit therefore benefits, wouldn't that be what you want?
I have one suggestion for you. GET REAL!
You're the one who has to get real if you think Long Island Bus is an adequate replacement for a private auto.
And LIB is not an alternative to nothing. I'd much rather take the bus than have my mom drive me places.
If that's your alternative, then obviously you prefer the bus. Most people aren't restricted by law against driving a car, so it isn't a problem.
Most people should be with how they endanger the welfare of others. Either way, you might be surprised by the number of people who are restricted by law from operating a vehicle and still do.
It's when you force adn tell people they have to exist via automobile(and the hundreds of greedy middleman that comes from that) or else they can't exist at all is where the problem comes into play.
They shoulda thought about that before raiding gas and other taxes for paved roads. Now we have a bigger system than the Autobahns of 1945 that the Allies used to get to Berlin quicker.
I don't argue anybody's statistics or personal experiences. But I think that in the long run, mass transit is the only way to go. To illustrate my point, first click the link in post #734927, and then eliminate the quotation mark at the end of the URL when it says the page can't be found. There are 4 pictures, but check out the contrast between pictures 1 and 3. It's very simple:
Right now, anybody can be right by saying that cars beat mass transit or vice versa, simply because we all have different lifestyles. We go with what's convenient. So we can't decide on what's better by looking at things right now. We have to look ahead. And ahead is this: If each and every new person commuting who has never commuted anywhere before decides to use mass transit no matter how convenient or inconvenient it is for them, then in the long run, mass transit will win out and gradually become more convenient because demand is higher. The people will also be happier because there will be the open space of picture 3 as opposed to the open space of picture 1, and congestion will take longer to form. Maybe by then will have regular commutes in the 3rd dimension (up and down), and that'll take centuries to develop congestion.
On the other hand, if each and every new person commuting who has never commuted anywhere before decides to use a car, congestion will develop faster and everyone will eventually realize that the trains are going faster without expanding trackage, while cars aren't going faster despite expanding roads, and eventually evictions for expressways and main roads will become intolerable.
Therefore, I conclude that it is not right now, but the future, that must be analyzed in order to determine the better means.
For one thing, I think there will be numerous developments similar to the SOHO type of urban renewal in many cities. This will be good in general for the country. Plenty of young folks might stay and prosper in their respective cities rather than leave for the bright lights of the larger cities. This is an important consideration. Sure, it ain't going to change the transportation choices most people must make. But it offers viable alternatives.
Also, ever notice something? People who drive everywhere are generally more out of shape than transit riders. With exceptions, of course. But driving per say is not a healthy thing to do. I happen to like the way driving makes me use my observational senses to the max, along with my analytical skills. But I also like waiting for a bus on a busy street, or taking a train to the center of a town. It's a civilized thing to do. It allows me to use my observational senses and my analytical skills for other tasks than making the journey itself.
And people still never learn.
So the natural state is one with oodles of highways and parking spaces?
Manhattan wasn’t made inconvenient for cars. It came that way off-the-shelf.
And you know what I love about monthly unlimiteds that you don't realize untill you don't use them for a few years. It's a great feeling knowing that for the next 30 days, you can get around as much and as far as you want or need to. Even with a prepaid gas card it's going to run out depending on usage. That is the most awesome part of transit.
Besically the people who write this BS dont' live in sprawl car-oriented cities, nor do I believe they have actually had a real commute. There isn't a newsppaer or human being that beleives this crap alive.
You mean like in the Gretchen Wilson video??? If so, then I'm dyin to move to Tampa to hang with you man!
And too pretty much summarize how I feel about what you said above, HELL YEAH!
I always wanted one of those full size with the big tires trucks(or just a full size 6-cyl car). But traffic has me so mad I have to say what a dude at the bus stop told me.
"Why would you pay 30grand for a new car if you can't use it???" After I told him I measured this road to average 12mph from end to end.
Anyway, there's parks and ranches in Orlando that let you go muddin with the big trucks. You can see them driving around the streets covered. There's a push for laws banning this apparnently due to environmental damage. I don't see a problem. They plow land for subdivisions everyday that's about the size of 30 of those dirt tracks. Daily. Who's banning that?
Anyway, if you do get shipped over here, hopefully they'll build the LRT so you can enjoy that too.
Yeah!
"There's a push for laws banning this apparnently due to environmental damage."
Environmental damage!? What the hell kinda environmental damage could they be doing? As long as it's not like they go and just make a new mud/dirt pit every day. Stupid NIMBYs
This sorta thing would be my only incentive to get a car(well, a truck). Probably that new Chevy pickup concept they commin out with. That thing is like a Silverado on steroids.
I agree with you though. As much of a tree-hugging hippie that I am(rush's words, not mine), I don't see a problem with a one acre plot of mud bogging. They take proabably 50 acres a day and pave it over for highways and houses(less now with the chinese concrete shortage crisis).
It's not really a new version of the Silverado. It's called the Cheyenne(or however you spell it). Atleast from what I remember from the auto show, it was HUGE!
I'll admit, at heart, I'm a road man. I love being on long trips just rollin down a highway. That's probably the trucker in me(I'll probably get into the biz for a few years for kicks, but I'm not makin it a career).
I thought about that actually. At the time I was more serious about it I didn't have the money for driving school(yes unlike cars they actually were taught how to drive). Now i have it put off for mid-life crisis. But I'm still looking for ANY job that will allow me to travel! My plan was to dabble in my major for a few years until i burn out(which typically happens in 90 day for me!), then move on.
If you notice my threads, i'm always pro-trucker. They shoudl be exempt from most tolls etc. If they or I(me?) are going from city A to City C via City B, and are held up in city b for hours due to little cars using the INTERstate to go a few exits, that's abuse of the system and holds everyone up. One of my arguments for transit, and HOT lanes with truck and bus exemptions.
In my perfect world.
I saw trucks and buses should have their own lane when it comes to bridges and tunnels. Not so sure bout highway though...maybe.
Your ideas about lowering investment in interstate highways and reducing the number of lanes will cause great hardships to communities which rely on trucks to deliver their goods. There is/was a saying in the UK - 'if you bought it, a truck brought it.' Like it or not, trucks are as vital to a country's economy as many other things you might care to mention and it simply does not make sense to tax them ever higher in the hope that they might just 'go away'. The bottom line is they wont, no matter to what extent your government chooses to tax them. As I have stated above, any extra transport costs are passed straight on to the end consumer. Thus, your theory basically envisages more remote, truck-reliant communties, through their higher costs as a result of truck taxes, paying for 'investment in urban development'.
No sane individual would argue that freight trains and freight train operating companies should be taxed. So why should trucks and truck operators? After all, they are both serving the same purpose - i.e. to distribute goods. If the government were to subsidise freight train operations, then maybe more freight would be taken off the road (a similar scheme operates in the UK, by the way). But like it or not, for a high percentage of goods, their is no alternative to distribution by truck, and taxing them ever higher will never solve any problems. Perhaps increasing the tax on huge SUVs and such which people drive for the sole reason that 'they look good', might be a more sensible soloution.
GOOD! Then maybe these people will reconsider living in an area that's too expensive for them to afford and the rest of us will no longer have to subsidize their expensive living arrangements.
Still, I like that downsizing notion you mentioned. Although I'm sure it leaves plenty of room for circumstantal fine tuning, such as the routing of a transit line along an expressway. That's an old idea but it surprisingly seems to work in some areas. It's fascinating stuff: here's an area that's been exit ramps and big highway signs and nary a stroller in sight now boasting train platforms and pedestrian traffic and walk-to-able stores and businesses. The kids in these neighborhoods surely would favor this development! So there, another argument in favor of transit. Why plan EVERYTHING for the benefit of the old fogies? Gotta think of the young'uns too. The future old fogies.
Let's say You are driving from Tampa to Jacksonville. I can't think of any other close cities that are a straight shot. There's a major metro called Orlando in the middle.
If you're a car, or a Mail run or a UPS(big-rig) driver and you ahve to do this run, you will be held up and not have an easy and efficient time. Why? Because there are between 200,000 and 300,000 other cars on the road using the system to travel a few exits. These people are holding you up to shave 5-10 minutes off their in-town commute. That's pretty selfish. Not to mention unnecessary for a percentage of those drivers. Why couldn't they take a bus or train if available?
That's an arguement for transit, and HOT lanes. That's also why HOT lanes should be made free to trucks and buses, the primary purpose of the system. Beltways and bypasses, if you don't give it to them for free, at least be a discount. These guys already pay an arm and a leg in user taxes and fee's depending on their base state.
Besides that, my goal would be to get these trucks through and around the cities the quickest way possible, without idling, which wastes gas, gas tax, drivers aren't getting paid, and pollution, not to mention danger. A city with a highway straight through from end to end with possibly HOT lanes in the median, put the trucks on them, no stop and go, no wasted gas emissions and poor economy. Description here, but they took the picture down
A beltway I could go either way on. But traffic, like water moves where there's the least amount of friction(traffic or tolls).
Then there's the trans-texas corridor with truck only lanes completely sepatarated, and Tampa's I-4 connector just for trucks to the port.
What I like about this is there's probably tons of solutations to talk about. Unlike this typical crap where I'm being "saved" from subsidizing transit and I end up paying more to subsidize roads, insurance, and myself.
I would replace taxes with user fees.
Most people complain there, but Orlando has an extremely high toll vs free road ratio(they even got them on regular avenues), and if you ask me, it actually works there. :)
I got rid of my car for one reason and one reason alone, the one you put in all-caps. My annual insurace cost was more than the value of the car itself. Considering I only drove 5000 miles per year, there was no way I was going to pay through the nose for the right to park the thing in front of my house for another year. SEPTA has its faults, but in West Philly the service is good enough to make car-free leaving very feasible, so I just got rid of the thing.
I guess you could say part of the money I saved paid for my new digital camera outfit. Not a bad swap if you ask me.
Mark
"The article makes a point, if we took the jobs out of the cities and moved them into the burbs, the traffic situation would get a whole lot better for everyone."
False. I live in that situation, along with millions of others. There isn't a single newspaper, magazine or engineer who wouldn't start laughing at you from this line.
Traditional city, everyone come in the morning and going out in the afternoon.
Today's city, people traving in ALL directions. Take a 4 way intersection. That sucker is backed up in ALL directions. Reverse commuting saving you time? Not here. It's nice not having any backups.
Plus, cars must be faster than transit. Being in Orlando's SR50 runs at a brisk 16mph between "peak" times(Peak is in quotes due to the service industry giving a peak of 18 hour days). Pineallas counties SR60 during afternoon rush. A brisk 12mph.
Is there the usual 21mph train argument out there? If so then the link is toliet paper.
------
Subsidization? Let's see.
What's the richest companies, that are government mandates you must pay these individuals? Insurance. I can pay for life and never have an "accident". A 16 year old can get airlifted and be hospitalized for over $200,000.00 dollars. People like me will subsidize them forever. Everytime there's glass on the roads, my rates go up due to the area. Same basis for calling the lottery a tax. Did they complain in the article? Probably not, they like to overlook this tax.
I could also go on about road construction, which is the biggest industry around here, and how come the ROAD transporation budget for the state is the 2nd highest expense for tax money!
And road construction costs are too numerous to quantify here.
There you have it.
I guess they are not familiar with the concept of cities being for business and outside the cities being for growing food. Ah yes, spread out the financial offices over a space of 100-150 miles, that's good for communication . . .
And as others have already noted, what on earth does Wendell Cox know about the situation in NY City?? We already saw what happens when the railroads shut down in NYC—it happened during the blackout last year. To put all of those people into cars, we would have to build ten times the number of highways that currently exist and pave over an area the size of Central Park to provide parking. What's that going to do for mobility??
Wendell Cox ought to give it up already.
But you know what, when I commuted in the R3, I could set my watch to that thing, almost to the second on somedays, I never had a back up, a bumpy ride, nor have i seen road debris or people on stretchers.
I can't say the quality is the same for my car or by any bus(especially in these car oriented places, buses are close to random at times).
But yea, tranport policy, urban-transit, etc...man. Least the roads one I can see news links when someone feels like posting(me, on the other hand, I could seriously flood that board with how many local news articles i got daily).
But mention how you'd like to take hte train instead of driving for once, and all the Cox and Tool fans come out of hiding real quick! Those fools never even got the memo that air travel dropped off after 9/11 and went to driving(i don't know how even it is now though)!
I disbelieve this, because the monthly operating cost for a car(truck or van) is more than
buying a monthly bus/rail pass :-(
While I don't defend the article, that's because the cost of that pass is heavily subsidized through taxes while the fees of the car aren't (or as much).
-HUH!!!!
Mark
That's a LOT of money.
What I figure about the car from these "studies" is the fact that building an urban highway lane isn't any cheaper than a LRT line. The only two differences are that the highway lane won't last as long, and:
LRT - public expense, not much private cost
highway - public expense with a high private burden too
Spending 3 billion on highway improvements gives you a double burden using numbers soley. These guys forget the meaning of tax. Spreading out the burden so each person doesn't have to give much and the greater good will be fulfilled. I'd spend less on a train line than I would commuting in stop and go(aka kill your car) traffic. And that's factored in on gas tax, sales tax, costs of car usage, and monthly passes. Anyone out of the 7th grade could tell you that.
now repeat after me. "Fuzzy math who?"
Here's my summary of what he's saying -- there are many holes in his analysis, but I would be very surprised his general conclusion didn't hold true for at least one rail line that has been proposed in the US in the last 10 years:
Take a hypothetical example where you are planning to build a new rail line that will serve 100,000 daily riders. Suppose it costs $10 Billion to build this new line and it will then cost $200 Million per year in subsidies to operate and maintain it.
You could buy each of the 100,000 daily riders a new Honda Civic or similar car for $20,000 per -- or $2 Billion. You could then provide them $2,000 per year for gas, insurance and maintenance at a cost of $200 million per year.
The government would save $8 billion in up-front building costs. The riders would benefit in that they would be able to drive their cars anywhere -- they wouldn't be restricted to just going up and down a single rail line.
This type of "facts and figures" analysis sways politicians. Declarations of "It's B.S." do not.
CG
Before you do that again, get a sense of how much new rail lines cost. Only long-distance lines cost in the $10 billion range. Remember, the proposal is to replace transit with automobiles.
Los Angeles tried to be rail-free for a few decades. Didn't work.
Cost to build $1.1 Billion
Daily ridership (projected -- not actually realized yet) -- 6,000
Cost of buying 6000 people a $20,000 car - $120 Million.
Capital savings from buying cars instead of building -- $980 Million
Annual operating subsidy to operate River Line -- $18 million
Cost of giving $2,000 in maintenance, gas, etc to 6,000 people -- $12 million
Operating savings from buying cars -- $6 million
Total savings from buying 6,000 cars instead of building River Line -- $986 Million, or nearly $1 Billion.
JeffW made a good point about the life span of a "cheapo Honda". Agreed, it ain't 40 years but it's not 4 either. But, with $1 Billion saved, you could invest that money and buy 6000 people new cars every 5 years on the interest alone.
As respects new roads needed, NJ's road system is more than capable of handling 6,000 additional cars per day -- especially if you buy into the author's premise that giving people cars gives them flexibility. (i.e. they won't all be travelling on the same roads or at the same time).
CG
Not exactly.
Cost to build, and maintain and operate for ten years: $1.1 Billion
Another problem with that math is that it assumed that the 6000 people riding are always the SAME 6000 people. Re-do the calculations with the number of different people who ride the line, who you will need to supply alternate transportation for, over the ten years and see how it stacks up.
That's the number one flaw that I see in those types of analysis. The costs add up exponentially once you recognize that the people aren't the same every day.
CG
So there are (ignored in the original argument) capital costs for more roads in the cities, where they are most expensive to build, and additional parking garages.
Plus the eyesore factor!
Hey, people don't like having the holes in their arguments pointed out. :-P
It's a childish ill-informed way of looking at a situation. Nobody has mentioned the beneficial results of establishing new rail services in congested, over-roaded metropolitan areas. No city can afford to ignore this, if they're hoping to survive and prosper. A new rail line can bring a higher sense of purpose to a previously less coordinated system of internal transport. Adding new vehicles to the daily traffic count only makes the outlying areas more attractive, and the older areas less desirable. This can't go on forever...and anyway, the whole concept is a red herring. We'll sooner see pigs fly than the gov'mnt buying cars for us folks.
Let's not forget about NJ's high auto insurance premia. Circa $1500/year for basic liability will severely hurt many drivers' pockets.
As respects new roads needed, NJ's road system is more than capable of handling 6,000 additional cars per day
False. Drive on the arteries I mentioned during the week and you will concede that even 6,000 fewer cars will not result in freeing up traffic significantly.
And yet again, you have left out road maintenance costs from your calculations, not to mention the cost of building the necessary new road arteries that will be needed. Comparatively, the River Line will outlast any road artery currently in existence.
Oh, have you forgot about winter travel as well? How much does all that salt cost? Care to estimate for us the number of snowbirds that would use the River Line once the roads get shut down? Sorry, your sidestepping does not wash.
Please. Time savings? How long does it take people to get from their homes to the stations and from the stations to their jobs on these woefully congested NJ roads. If anything, a commute on the line likely takes longer door-to-door than the corresponding car commute. People take it because it is more pleasant than driving (which has a personal economic value, but not a societal one).
Re: road construction and road maintenance -- do these roads not exist already? Are they not already maintained. Is an additional 6000 cars per day (again, not all on one particular road) going to cause deterioration of the road surface any quicker than it deteriorates now?
Even at the most optimistic cost assumptions, your arguments do nothing to offset a $1 Billion difference in cost between the two options.
Whoops! Torpedoed your argument right there.
If anything, a commute on the line likely takes longer door-to-door than the corresponding car commute
Prove it. If your car isn't moving (most likely scenario), then your door-to-door commute will be longer than even if you walked to and from the River Line stations.
Re: road construction and road maintenance -- do these roads not exist already? Are they not already maintained
Not the roads you're gonna need. And the extant roads you cannot dismiss by saying "already maintained".
Even at the most optimistic cost assumptions, your arguments do nothing to offset a $1 Billion difference in cost between the two options
Which costs are you talking about though?
Then I'm assuming commuters are flocking to the River Line in droves because it saves them both time and money. Not!!!! Q.E.D.
Tell that to those commuters who get work done while on the train (or to their employers).
Aside from all the holes that have been poked in your analysis, the analysis itself hinges on a very questionable assumption: that the only possible reason one might ride transit is that one doesn’t own a car. I disagree with that assumption, and I suspect you do as well.
Hey, does that also follow that the only possible reason one might fly on an airline is that one doesn't own a long-range jet . . . ? ;->
Well, I'd say the full Metro North parking lots shoot that theory down.
The life of a cheapo honda civic isn't 40 years like a rail car. Figure in the price of buying 4 cars for every rider vs. the single train itself.
You also forgot to build these guys roads and parking lots/garages. Where are they going to put them?
SPeaking of 200million, they'd complain about operating a line for a few miles for that price, but what happens when a tiny interchange costs that much?
------
"State officials say a plan to rid the Bay area of one of its largest traffic jams will begin on schedule.
The Tampa International Airport interchange is where State Road 60, the Veterans Expressway and the Memorial Causeway converge.
The $192 million construction project should start in January, and will drastically alter the major artery.
Click on the link to the bottom right to watch this entire story -- our Extra on Special Assignment."
-----
It's not going to work!!! ALl the roads feeding and leaving it is still backed up!!!!! Does any "institute" tell me otherwise? No, they don't care. The trial lawyers and chiropractors will get rich off of this thing due to impacts at higher speed. That's all it will do.
Plus see ANY of my previous posts relating to accidents. People with just a broken arm are lucky, some of these clowns suffer for years.
We don't need to say facts because it is BS. These arguements in these "reports" defy commonsense and are even dismissed by officials(this just happened in NC this week). Only condo commanders take heed on these things. I haven't found anyone else in any scenrio who does. So I'll continue to debunk every non-reality for fun as time goes on.
Some of the holes are sooo huge and so commonsense defing, i'm amazed they even get press time.
A person in a car takes up more room than a person taking up only the space necessary to stand or sit, and breathe.
When you are parking a bus or train, you are parking that room that people take up which is only necessary to stand or sit, and breathe. When you park a car, you are parking whatever the size of the car is, which is usually larger than the necessary room.
When you drive a car, you generally pollute. Meanwhile, many forms of mass transit are electric or operate on natural gas, and even if they didn't, a typical bus of capacity of 70 people, even when only filled with, say, 20, must still be lower than the pollution of 20 cars.
It has been necessary to divert and even ban cars from certain areas simply because of congestion or smog. I have never heard of a subway or rail diversion that was in effect for any other purpose besides construction or renovation.
Don't have time to look now, but I guarantee that the death toll of mass transit per passenger is much smaller than the death toll or car accidents per car driver and passenger.
From here
That page used to be there forever, I just hope it's temporarily down.
*Don't have time to look now, but I guarantee that the death toll of mass transit per passenger is much smaller than the death toll or car accidents per car driver and passenger.*
The death toll is very close to smoking. I bet if you add in asthma caused by smog it would surpass it. You have people banning smoking in bars, and class action suits against the tobacco companies causing them to move offshore for protection. But a guy is about to jump off the bridge and everyone and the news talks about how he backs up traffic and people are angry.
Double standard.
That page, imo, is a must read and the best demo of that I've seen to date. ANd it's a few years old!
Board of Directors
Herbert J. Walberg, Chairman
Joseph L. Bast, President and CEO The Heartland Institute
James L. Johnston, Amoco Corporation (retired)
Thomas Walton, General Motors Corporation
Walter F. Buchholtz, ExxonMobil Corporation
Roy E. Marden, Philip Morris
David H. Padden, Padden & Co.
Robert Buford, Planned Realty Group
Frank Resnik, Medline Inc. (retired)
Paul Fisher Piper, Marbury, Rudnick & Wolfe
Leslie Rose, Fidelity Bank
James Fitzgerald, BankNote Capital LLC
Lee Tooman, Golden Rule Insurance Company
Dan Hales, Peterson & Ross
Lee H. Walker, New Coalition for Economic & Social Change
William Higginson, Chicago Equity Fund Inc.
Funding:
Funding comes from various private sources (ExxonMobil donated $15,000 in 2002 [2] (http://www2.exxonmobil.com/files/corporate/public_policy1.pdf)), plus several right-wing institutional foundations:
Charles G. Koch Charitable Foundation
Claude R. Lambe Charitable Foundation
JM Foundation
John M. Olin Foundation, Inc.
Lynde and Harry Bradley Foundation
Scaife Foundations (Sarah Mellon Scaife, Carthage)
In truth, who cares who they are? They are people trying to influence the electorate just like lots of other organizations, both liberal and conservative. Preaching hatred of them says more about the "preachers" than it says about them...
Libertarians are not entirely money-motivated. Some of them, at least, also object to governmental interference with any aspects of daily life - for instance, they're pro-choice, unlike true conservatives. Also, while conservatives tend to be religious, libertarians are not, at least in terms of being church members. They often view organized religion as an infrigement upon human freedom.
To keep things on topic, libertarians would be opposed to the MTA's proposed ban on subway photography as an unjustified restriction on freedom.
Completely untrue. That may be true for Libertarians with a capital L, but not for all libertarians with a lower-case l.
Authoritarians who favor tax cuts are traditional conservatives, rather than libertarians.
Perhaps when you grow up, you will realize that you are not the intellectual center of the universe and the only holder of the Truth! Or as they used to say in Brooklyn: "Who died and made you boss?"
"Libertarianism should be a crime"
"They are fascists who should be handed to the UN for trial."
Statements like these are what I am talking about. They have nothing to do with the rightness or wrongness of ideas. They are advocacy of eliminating people because they ideas are different from his. I don't care what he thinks of them. It's his advocacy of physical restraint that bothers me.
~
~
~
Barry Goldwater's first wife, Peggy, who died in 1985, was one of the founders of Planned Parenthood of Central and Northern AZ (Arizona Daily Star 6/18/94). But perhaps the most striking blow to the right to life came in 1992 when Goldwater took an active stand in opposition to the pro-life platform of the Republican Party. Goldwater opined that the GOP "will go down in a shambles" if the expected "anti-abortion" plank is adopted in the GOP platform. The warning came in a letter from Goldwater to Mary Dent Crisp of the so-called National Republican Coalition for Choice (Arizona Republic 8/7/92). Goldwater so motivated pro-abortion Republicans at the convention, one reporter noted numerous "Barry is right" buttons worn by those seeking to scrap the pro-life plank (Washington Post 8/18/92).
On Gays in the Military: "You don't need to be 'straight' to fight and die for your country, you just need to shoot straight." On the Religious Right's agenda in general: "Religious factions will go on imposing their will on others unless the decent people connected to them recognize that religion has no place in public policy. They must learn to make their views known without trying to make their views the only alternatives."
On what Jerry Falwell deserves for trying to impose his religious values on the Republican agenda: "a boot ... right in the ass." On Ronald Reagan's claim that he knew nothing of Iran/Contra: "[He was] either a liar or incompetent."
*REAL* conservatives believe that people should be free in the pursuit of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness so long as they don't harm others, whether personally or through the mask of a corporation. They believe that government DOES have a purpose, doing what the people or private enterprise cannot or will not do for themselves, and of course the defense of our nation, our people and our homes.
And then we've got the NEOCONS and the Libertarians they pander to. It AIN'T the same. And personally, I object to the hijacking and denigration of the word "conservative" by these hosers. :(
Yea real fair.
The only thing I agree with is the smokers rights(who banned smoking in BARS!!, come on!!).
The rest I disagree with their stances. Vouchers plain dont work. You're talk on the enviromental thing doesn't need further explaination. And deregulation of health insurance? Oh my god. How about I just sign my orgins to them for profit right now(it's a very profitable industry actually). Yea, let me pay more for insurance and get even less back. There's a reason people die from HMO neglect yearly.
I think i'm done with this thread now after this one.
James L. Johnston, Amoco Corporation (retired)
Thomas Walton, General Motors Corporation
Walter F. Buchholtz, ExxonMobil Corporation
Obviously, the corporations they represent have an ulterior motive in promoting cars over transit.
Mark
A bicycle. Maybe rides on a bus.
That's how he feels about them. He does pretty good. Lives in one of those "trailer" parks on the millionaire islands. One of those trailers costs more than a typical house however, so in those parts, you're still upperclass. I know I couldn't live there. Subsidizes his expenses by his work, keeps the rest in the bank.
But that says alot.
Got the rest of my brakejob done. APparently the heat melted some glue on a shim, so the guy finally get me some "economy" model rotors. Nice and shiny.
Anyhow, even if it's from just normal wear and tear, or whatever, I want these pricks to pay for it. I figure the board of directors get enough tax cuts and loopholes they should be able to bribe me to join their cause.
Brakes, struts, shocks, oil changes might be half the price of expensive champange to these people, or a time-share in the hamptons, but for real americans, that's rent money. They may not even have the money on hand. That's called hardship.
I hope Andrew Carnegie comes back as a ghost and haunts the hell out of these people. The purpose of these bluebloods and VP Dick isn't to sack everyone to get richer and create as many loopholes as possible. There was a point where you after you reach it, you create a better world. This whole thing with the buying power of america going down, CEO's getting billion dollar bonuses everytime they lay off a thousand is disgusting. YOu take a hit, i take a hit. What happened to top down leadership and follow by example. I lay off half my company, i tighten my belt. Not buy 3 more houses! And for god sakes don't be a disney, build a library or something. I don't see Joe Paterno following these ppl's leads!
Least hoteliers donate schools and buildings.
til next time
Next time you can use feedback to bring such thing to my attention.
Thanks
Looks like it is having lunch. Maybe the 21s and the 22s invited him over for tea and crumpets.
Elias
- Of the Mets four, Cliff Floyd seems to be the hardest to get, but mine was purched in the upper Manhattan, so maybe its just a local problem.
- Calvin Klein (white) seems to have been a very small distribution.
- JFK Airtrain, seems that they still haven't issued the balance of the distribution on the fourth card, i.e. the one that was given away the first day.
The one that I had a hard time finding was the most recentent Centenel MC in english. I found 20 spansh ones before I found one english.
Robert
According to Transit Police, the score is Motorists: 45, Pedestrians: 2, MetroRail Operator: 1!
Dylan...
Thanks,
Bob
Thanks,
Bob
Larry, RedbirdR33
149th Street (former Express station) had underpass
156th Street (local) had underpass (*)
161st Street (local) had underpass (*)
166th street (local) had underpass (*)
169th street (local) had underpass (*)
171st strreet (local) had underpass (*)
174th street (local) had underpass (*)
177th Street (former express) had underpass (*)
180th Street (local) had two separate station houses
---with two separate token booths
183rd Street (local) had station house and toek booth on DOWNTOWN side ONLY and underpass to uptown side from inside of fare control area
Fordham Road (former Express station) had a brick ground level station house with token booth on NORTH end with stairways to both platforms from fare control area
200th Street (local) had Two separate station houses with separate token booths (no underpass)
204th street (local) had two separate station houses at SOUTH end of platforms with separate token booth (no underpass)
210th Street (local) had underpass (*)
Gun Hill Road (Terminal) - stairways from ground level fare entry stationhouse
NOTE: (*) indicates a single token booth center of the "under-trackway mezzanine" underpass
Hope this helps you
Joseph Frank
NYCMTS - NYCMTA -
NYC Transit Modelers Group
Regards - Joe
Long shot of Steinway Low-V class train in local station somewhat like the Bronx 3rd Avenue El
Thanks, that's just what I was looking for! By the way, when I first looked at your first photo, I didn't even realize it was a model.
Thanks again,
Bob
And theres proberly more crossovers to the City Hall/Chatham Sq/South Ferry direction(when they were in use that is).
I think Bob meant and only asked for the "last recent active" Bronx 3rd Ave EL info and the Bronx Park station closed in 1950, 23 years before the rest of the Bronx line....I believe Bob meant the active Bronx remnant only from 12/13/1956 to April 29, 1973. I also know all of the over and underpasses south of 149th Street to City Hall and South Ferry but that was, is, irrelevant as to what Bob specifically asked for here.
(long ago dead info anyway !!)
Regards - Joe
(and BOB, Here is another shot from my Model EL system for you)
Anyways, nice photo. I just picked up 2 Chicago El 0-gauge cars myself today. Is there a way to make it go the direction I want without doing the precedure I was told(let the train light go on, turn it off, and then power it up and it should go the direction, if not the correct one, redo it).
Also where can I find subway style stations for the o-gauge stuff?
The "L" in Chicago is called that because "L" is the first letter in the word Loop.
Peace,
ANDEE
Anyone know for sure?
This is an appropriate police response. No railfan should object to being questioned, but once the benign nature of the photography becomes obvious, they should be left alone.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
If you're waiting for a certain train and you are observed whipping out the camera, photographing the train and putting the camera away, wouldn't that raise more suspicion if you are being observed ?
At least with my camera bag, I look like photographer. If a terrorist wants to photograph sensitive areas, he's not going to lug a heavy camera bag, he'll do as you do.
Be careful John, don't act too suspicious.
Bill "Newkirk"
I just hope that this chaos will eventually come to an end. However, I agree. Hanging around, whipping the camera out and putting it away immediately can be more suspicious than just taking a picture normally. I think there should be a medium between what was said about "quick pic taking" and hanging around a station for 20 minutes taking people. What I'd suggest is if you see something cool while waiting for something, take out your camera, take a few pics. However, don't loiter and whatnot. Of course, I'd probably be too nervous to take my camera out anyway, lol.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Don't expect any lessening of terrorism paranoia if Kerry gets elected. He'll be trying to prove that he's not soft on defense and national security, and as a result may overcompensate and be even more paranoid than Bush. The one difference is that John Edwards won't be playing the Dick Cheyney role in the terror fight, as he'll be too busy chasing ambulances.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101040712-660960,00.html
"Individuals seen taking photos of landmarks and other potential targets are not usually arrested (it's not illegal), but U.S. officers check their pictures and enter their names in an interagency record base.
[... examples of suspicious photographer incidents ...]
Any or all of these incidents, of course, may have been innocent. But federal officials are reviewing them and urging local law-enforcement to be vigilant against a possible terrorist strike this summer or fall."
Remember, most CCTV systems can see what you are doing some of the time or see where you are all of the time, but they can't see what you are doing all of the time.
The goal here is to make it administratively hard for cops to do this sort of thing. They know that if they do, they are likely to have to deal with questions and paperwork back at the station. Easier to leave the photographer alone…
-Harry
SAS
But, idk, maybe someone can clear that up for you...
SAS
Uh.....nothing was wrong with R-15. Track 1 could only hold 3 cars.
I was hoping for Lo-Vs.
-Stef
I was at Kingsbridge Road on the 4 and saw the shuttle consist on the middle track, along with its friends R15 6239 and R33ML's 9016 and 9017. 9016's front rollsign was set to (3) 148 Street-Lenox Terminal.
A few minutes later after I got there, the train started running northbound on the middle track, and switched to the southbound track (to go to the yard.) I went up to the yard later, and saw it there.
I have photos, if anyone's interested.
-RJM
I have photos, if anyone's interested
We're interested!
-RJM
Gerry
The C/R said they were being used because it's the Centennial this year. He did mention future runs up until October 27th AFAIK... Maybe I'm extrapolating too much from RJM's picture, but may be the 3 will be the next candidate...
What station were you at anyway, RJM?
Kingsbridge Road.
Nevermind that these are HISTORIC Museum vehicles... Mightst well put out the
GARBAGE train and see if they'll board it.
Was there some sort of C/R announcement ID'ing the cars to the lucky geese?
No, many of them question it. I don't know if this was usual or not but many people were asking me things like "Does this train go to Queens?" or "Is this the (2) train?"
Mightst well put out the
GARBAGE train and see if they'll board it.
Most people would board it, IMO.
Was there some sort of C/R announcement ID'ing the cars to the lucky geese?
Yes.
Peace,
ANDEE
Fortunately Boston's subways don't hold as much heat as NYC's.
Gerry
A regular R-62A train pulled into Grand Central at the same time as the museum train. Somebody got on and asked just about everyone which train would be leaving first. He had difficulty understanding that that train over there runs on a schedule, while this one leaves whenever the crew feels like taking it out, so we couldn’t answer his question.
Now THAT is something I'd like to TAPE happening say...... Saturday Night...
8th Street on N/R... yannow how E. Village college kiddies get with the licorice...
Usually not lest the trips be overrun with foamers.
Peace,
ANDEE
The cars on the consist are: W/9306-6609-5760/E
Subtalkers there:
High Street-Brooklyn Bridge
David J Greenberger
Sir Ronald of McDonald
Bombardier
myself (Second Avenue Stubway)
Others who were there but I failed to mention, I apologize...but I know you might have been there and I didn't see it...
Thanks for a great afternoon!
SAS
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
BTW, what fence are you referring to that you apparently assumed that I stood on? Tell me, please explain.
SAS
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Voyages - "Trains Unlimited: Steam Trains" - HISI, Wed Jul 07 04:00pm EDT
Understanding - "Tunnels" - SCIENCE, Wed Jul 07 06:00pm EDT
Tracks Ahead - "Northlandz" - WNETDT, Wed Jul 07 06:30pm EDT
Modern Marvels - "Bullet Trains" - HISTORY, Thu Jul 08 09:00am EDT
Runaway (boy flees to subway after friend gets killed) - BLKSTZ, Fri Jul 09 08:40am EDT
Living Dangerously - "Train Wreck" - NGC, Sun Jul 11 12:30pm EDT
Engineering the Impossible ("tunnels") - DSC, Mon Jul 12 12:00am EDT
TV411 (subway tile maker DeBorah Goletz) - WNJN, Mon Jul 12 05:00am EDT
Tracks Ahead - "The Ghan Railway" - WNETDT, Mon Jul 12 06:30pm EDT
The Incident (1967) (a classic) - FMC, Mon Jul 12 08:01pm EDT
The Taking of Pelham One Two Three (1974) (even more classic) TCM, Tue Jul 13 02:15am EDT
Voyages - "Railway Marvels" - HISI, Wed Jul 14 11:00am EDT
Building Big - "Tunnels" - WNET, Thu Jul 15 04:00am EDT
Strangers on a Train (1951) - THMAX, Thu Jul 15 06:30am EDT
New York Underground (see subtalkers in action) - DTIMES, Thu Jul 15 07:00pm EDT
The Great Train Robbery (1979) - TCM, Fri Jul 16 10:00pm EDT
Money Train (1995) (woody & wesley) - TBS, Sun Jul 18 04:00pm EDT
Tracks Ahead - "Joshua Lionel Cowan" - WNETDT, Mon Jul 19 06:30pm EDT
If you turn on there now, well, prepare for a laugh. :)
Would it be possible to provide rail service along that EL, or is it too old (the station house is all boarded up)?
As for your question, according to the page on NYCSubway, the trackway you see was once part of the New York, Westchester & Boston Railroad. Only a small portion of it is in active use at the Dyre Avenue Line. Speaking of which, shuttle service was running from East 180th to Dyre Avenue because of construction on the White Plains El. Riding their for the first time, it really needs it.
IS THAT BUILDING RELATIVE to NYW&B or to EAST 180TH in any way??
1SimilarLooks9
-Adam
(fishbbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
Hey, yeah.....
Chuck Greene
Your pal,
Fred
Subway route of the moment:
The
-Chris
Alright, click here for the thread on that carpet at GCT's Vanderbilt Hall.\
-Chris
I have (access to) plenty of great pictures, but I have almost no recolection of the sounds it made (acceleration, announcements, and most importantly, doorchimes).
So, does anyone have recordings of it? I remember someone said perviously they did, but never posted any links...
Thanks,
-Julian
-Julian
"Sebesta says a Bay area commuter rail system could also connect to a high-speed Orlando/Miami rail system. He says a company called the Global Rail Consortium has offered $400 million in private money to help get the project started."
Have I found this anywhere else so far?
No. But I hear on the radio it's more than Bombarider offered.
Now if only Branson can get in on this i'd buy shares!
Global Rail Consortium comprising Korean Railroad Technical Corporation, Arcadis, a design and engineering firm, Also Lockheed and Centex-Rooney. They had proposed used TGV trainsets.They later switched to new Korean ones.
Wheels in motion for light rail project
Wednesday, July 7, 2004
The Tampa Bay Commuter Rail Authority is taking steps to make the dream of a local light rail system a reality.
"We're going to build this sucker unless somebody stops us," said state Senator Jim Sebesta.
Sebesta is pushing the idea of a light rail system to carry commuters from Hernando to Manatee, and from Pinellas to Polk. But once the commuters get to the train station, how will they get to their destinations?
Hernando County resident Len Tria has checked out light rail systems in Dallas, St. Louis and Portland. He says successful systems have one thing in common.
"Every light rail system has a bus feeder system that brings riders to it, every one," said Tria.
So now the rail authority is scouting potential locations for so-called inter-modal centers -- stations where commuters can get off the train and get a cab, bus or another train to take them to their final destination efficiently.
"We're trying to figure out how to put all of those mass transit systems together," said Sebesta. "And there may very well be more than one inter-modal center for each of the counties."
Possible locations for the centers include downtown sites in Tampa, St. Petersburg and Clearwater. The board hopes to have final locations picked out later this year. Then work begins on planning potential routes.
Tria says when it's done, it will be worth it to Bay area commuters.
"Everyone has to remember that a journey of 10,000 miles begins with one step," said Tria.
Sebesta says a Bay area commuter rail system could also connect to a high-speed Orlando/Miami rail system. He says a company called the Global Rail Consortium has offered $400 million in private money to help get the project started.
-----------------------------
This is interesting because it traverses so many counties. TONS of counties, some with over triple digit growth, and some built out begging for relief. 4 of the counties has upped it's sales tax for transportation this year too, the other has a maxed out gas tax. 2 of the counties are going to ask for more gas taxes and sales taxes either this year or next.
I wonder how this effects the one monorail idea too.
Looks like Randy Tool has a lot of work to do to come down here and tell us this is bad for us.
"Every light rail system has a bus feeder system that brings riders to it, every one," said Tria.
I think bus feeders are a good idea, but it's only part of the equation. Build TODs around the stations, too.
What is known about Senator Jim Sebesta? He seems to be pushing rail in a big way.
Mark
Even Orlando's going ahead with one of their FLxBRT lines that was originally intended for their LRT.
I still want to see big garages at the major stations though.
And this article sounds even more ambitious than some of the MPO plans I read. I even seen ideas for water taxi's and amtrack HSR.
R-32.
As for the bus, we'll see what happens.
R-32.
Not true.
What the HBLR and Riverline have are car parks! There is maybe a bus feeder system but without the car parks, both would be unsuccessful.
Thinking about #7's post, i think he's right, they do mean to add commuter in there somewhere. Hopefully they can add that before they get rid of ALL the tracks in tampa(downtown used to be nothing but trakcs and not streets). There's enough east-west lines to do it. Some streets I can go over 2-3 crossing or 7 tracks in a block.
woohoo.
Yeah, I remember that before they put in the Ice Palace. Next to 13th St. was a storage yard. Did you ever count the amount of crossings on Anderson Rd.? There's two sets of crossings on 50th St. alone for a total of five tracks!
R-32.
What you're talking about at 50th street is what I was thinking of. If you can't get something running on there even, then that means somethings fishy.
May be that was before the Ice Palace's garage was a flat parking lot. One of those stupid ones where they expect you to slip your money in the slot corresponding to your space. Who's counting!!. I remember that because I had to park there once years ago (1994).
R-32.
I honestly dont' have a problem with a monorail and a LRT as long as the two meet up under the same platform awning for a transfer.
Mark
R-32.
If pinellas can't even get a road built, how are they going to do a monorail wihtout blaming 24 cities on something being wrong like always? Least tampa had grecco, but todays county vs. city is pathetic.
Sebasta's going to have to do what I think Mica needs to do, get the funding(which Mica did) but just shove it in there instead of transferring it to maimi. I don't want to see the bay area get the billions, and then Miami will mysteriously get LRT as it disappears from our radar like what's up with tri-rail.
R-32.
Hear about the Crosstown? It's still sinking :)
Yeah, I read all about it in the Tampa Trib. a few days ago. This column only sank .3 an inch more than it's supposed to.
R-32.
R-32.
R-32.
Yeah that is alot ground for light rail to cover, but for us in Hernando Co. it's welcome relief. We already have a gas tax which was to rebuild Spring Hill's old roads. Now that's mostly complete. Hernando to Manatee though; that's about 70 miles. How fast do they expect this thing to go? Single track or double (probably single - at least at first)? Where will they get the right of way; or will they cheap - out and use the CSX tracks running parallel to U.S. 41? Too many questions with such an ambitious project. It will be nice to see how they iron these things out. I'll ride it if it comes. Hell -- we've already got a 'bus' system (a dinky one).
It's worth noting that when light rail does come, it will be another excuse to raise the rents around here, like they did when the put the expressway through.
R-32.
Which is interesting in how some homebuilders react. They should all welcome it like they lobby for highways. Pasco's housing prices went up 30% now this year from that expressway.
R-32.
The HBLR increased all the values of all the homes that live within 3 blocks of the line according to the Bayonne newspapers. Public transporttion does have some detractions but if you're a homeowner and ready to sell, you're basically in the diver's seat
Not that they don't go. But being able to get there by a train will always be a popular choice for partying youths. Along with the more important benefits of creating a more direct connection with regional urban centers, such as giving places like Brooksville a stronger sense of place. Then there's the new dynamics engendered on the employment situation. With commtter rail to the traditional downtown office concentrations now high school students will have some more options to ponder regarding their vocational paths. And the cultural resources become easier to reach too.
All in all, I will hope that such a development will succeed. Maybe then, someone will open a nice bakery where I can get some frickin' rolls...and crumb cake. Hardenst thing of all to get down there is rolls and bagels and stuff...
That's because they carefully marketed to New Yorkers - especially Long Islanders - with all the commercials, and home shows featuring Florida bulders. That set off the chain reaction which is responsible for why I'm here and, I'll bet, is responsible for why you're here. That is to say, someone officially retires from NYPD or Transit, or the post office, then they love it and tell another family member. The second party tells another member (maybe a young couple looking to settle down. Then....don't let a daughter get divorced with kids and have to move in with her parents - in Florida - there's alot of that down here.
But from the people I've talked to down there, it's not a normal thing for them to consider going into Tampa, say, to hang out in "cool" city neighborhoods, or to go to Ybor City.
Well I don't know who you talked to, but that's not practically true; especially from Springhill. I went to Tampa to college - leave alone to party. Springhill has next to nothing to do in terms of nightlife -- Brooksville has even less. Don't misread the map or the people telling you things; Brooksville is a country town - full of the old southerners. If you wanted any excitement, you needed to travel South; at least to New Port Richey, but usually Tampa or Clearwater. As such, I've been to Tampa so many times and to many clubs - and yes, Ybor City. Despite all this talk of progress, this is still the South. As such, you only get as much things to do as you know people. The more people you get to know over time, generally, the more there is for you to do.
That said, this is why it sucks down here for single folks - well Tampa is a little bit better. Any public transportation system that makes travel to Tampa more feasible is needed.
BTW ... Whereabout do you live? Give me some names of folks you know in Springhill and Brooksville. I've been here 15 years and went to high school here. You can e-mail me if you don't want to tell on this site.
R-32.
I keep trying to figure out which is more southern, here or Orlando. Then I get to thinking, what other place do you have a bullriding "club" accross the street from a place called NYPD pizza in a DOWNTOWN other than Orlando.
I guess yanks and rebels can coincide to a certain extent.
And a LRT would help Ybor out a lot(along with channelside). Check out any other city or college town with GOOD public transit to bar area's when it comes time. They prove to be popular.
That was a great analysis of the situation in your neck of the woods. It was very useful.
p.s.: I once checked out just how far along RT. 19 could someone take public buses going south from around CR 50 (Weeki Wachee (sp?)) to around Tampa. One of the Brooksville bus routes does travel on it but then theres a gap until Hudson. Turned out that it could be done from the Hudson area, anyway. You would have to pay seperate fares each time, but the transfers themselves would be simply getting off one side of the street and walking across the corner to where the next counties' RT. 19 bus route passes. I think it was four different systems in all. Made me wonder if there were many statewide busfans who do trips like that. It would be like going from Williamsburg, Brooklyn to Patchog)ue, Long Island by bus, which I've done and it took four buses to do it. (B53 to N6 to N72 to S40)
That'd be maybe 50-60 miles, same distance as tampa to disney. Though according to the [slur deleted] HR people in that area I'm too far away, even though i'm the same distance and half the time here as i would be in Sanford, go figure.
Find me a gas station that will give me a round trip of close to over a 100 miles for only $4.50(and a few hours too).
Hernando Co. buses aren't there yet. As such, they still use short wheelbase Bluebirds. You can almost forget it in Hernando.
R-32.
I understand PCPT wants to make the 19 every 30 minutes soon. If i had my say I would transfer the Hartline Flxible buses that are being scrapped currently and use those until PCPT can get some new buses. That would get 30min close to asap and leave some capacity. But nothing in gov't or business is ever done easily. :(
BTW, What i really like about the PCPT buses, besides their high floor and ride better than a new flyer, the windows are extra tinted. Why PSTA has these half done tint jobs I'll never know.
I did a gallery with a few pics
I typically like to get more and better ones, but I'm never around when they are.
So HART is finally getting around scrapping the Grummans. I was just wondering what happened to them; I'm seeing less and less of them. That bus was a flop for Grumman. It wasn't successful at all in NY.
R-32.
They've been running since the late eighties it looks like. 16 years is pretty good. Going to be all Gillig soon. Actually, and here comes some more dork stuff, I want to see the two electric buses coming in october.
R-32.
Not that they don't go. But being able to get there by a train will always be a popular choice for partying youths. Along with the more important benefits of creating a more direct connection with regional urban centers, such as giving places like Brooksville a stronger sense of place. Then there's the new dynamics engendered on the employment situation. With commuter rail to the traditional downtown office concentrations now high school students will have some more options to ponder regarding their vocational paths. And the cultural resources become easier to reach too.
All in all, I will hope that such a development will succeed. Maybe then, someone will open a nice bakery where I can get some frickin' rolls when I go down there. Hardest thing of all to get down there is rolls and bagels and stuff...
There is a bagel shop in Springhill in the 'Seven Hills' Kash 'n' Karry shopping centre. 'New York Bagels' I think it's called.
R-32.
"We're going to build this sucker unless somebody stops us," said state Senator Jim Sebesta.
According to David Pinero, who runs a Web site about rail transit in the Tampa Bay area, it seems that Sebesta is actually talking about what we would call commuter rail (like Tri-Rail over on the other side of Florida), but is getting the terminology mixed up.
And I dont' even drive the 5miles to the beach anymore. That traffic backs up for miles(hours). Why do they let 20,000 cars onto an island with only 1000 spaces?
I needed a more congested environment, so I tooled down to 125th Street Station and clicked away. I need to thank Chris Rivera for his excellent suggestion of railfanning there.
Homeland Security/Federales/Gendarme Note: I went over to the shack where a couple of nice ladies who work for the MTA were observing the trains and told them I was railfanning and not 'someone who's up to no good'. One of them laughed and the other acted grateful that I told her. No major calistenics on my part, just being courteous. I had no problem with anyone molesting me.
Yes, yes, the place indeed whelps trains. I know I didn't, but I felt like I saw every passenger piece of rolling stock that Metro North has. There were M-7's, ACMU's, diesels, and the good old Metropolitans and Cosmopolitans we all know and love.
More Photos Here.
I also went to Spuyten Duyvil for more railfanning, but I'll post those later. Nah, screw that, Here they are.
Enjoy the photos cuz I sure had lotsa fun taking them and reviewing them.
Your pal,
Metro
What camera do you use?
Your pal,
Fred
I would instead say that it breathes trains . . .
Your pal,
Fred
Anybody wanna guess what part of the digestive system Chambers Street BMT resembles?
Your pal,
Fred
Your pal,
Fred
Wassaic is the most northerly station of the MN system. I was up in NW CT attempting to fish (broke my fly rod), then attempting to buy some food (couldn't find Nodine's Smokehouse), so I threw my hands up in the air and went railfanning. Wassaic is pretty peaceful, just a bit south of Amenia. Enjoy the PHOTOS
Your pal,
Fred
More Photos here
Your pal,
Brewster
$800: This word follows "Oxford" & "Piccadilly" in Tube stop names
$1200: If you're on NYC's A Train, get off at Howard Beach in this borough to go to JFK Airport
$1600: The Metro stop for Montreal's Olympic Stadium is Pie-IX, named for this 19th century religious figure
$2000: The major hub of the Washington Metro is the stop named for this French planner
Final Jeopardy: What is the somewhat significant factual error in one of the clues that might make a railfan get a question wrong?
Remember, if you attempt an answer, it needs to be phrased in the form of a question.
Answers will be posted sometime tomorrow.
$1,200, (DUH!!!), Where is the borough of Queens?
$2000 Where is L'Efant Plaza?
Final Jeopardy - dunno. I bet $0.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'd consider L'Enfant plaza to be A hub, so the word the is the only thing that really makes that clue "tricky" at all....
LOLOL
Quality answer-question :)
w.e.s.
$400: Get off at Sportivnaya in this city to see the venue for much of the 1980 Summer Olympics
What is Moscow?
$800: This word follows "Oxford" & "Piccadilly" in Tube stop names
What is circus?
$1200: If you're on NYC's A Train, get off at Howard Beach in this borough to go to JFK Airport
What is Queens?
$1600: The Metro stop for Montreal's Olympic Stadium is Pie-IX, named for this 19th century religious figure
Who is Pope Pius IX?
$2000: The major hub of the Washington Metro is the stop named for this French planner
Who is (Pierre Charles) L'Enfant?
Final Jeopardy: What is the somewhat significant factual error in one of the clues that might make a railfan get a question wrong?
OK, you didn't have to answer FJ in the form of a question, just somehow indicate that L'Enfant Plaza is not really the hub of the DC Metro system.
Thanks to everyone who played along.
And for those of you who care, Ken Jennings, the current Jeopardy! champion, continues to win and win and win. He won another $40,000 last night (7/8) and is now a 27 day champion with $868,960 in winnings so far.
IMHO they should reimpose the five-show limit and have undefeated champions again.
:o)
wayne
Take the "A" train marked "Lefferts Boulevard", and you will wind up at that particular last stop, with perhaps taking the Green Lines' Q10 bus from there to the airport with a Metrocard transfer. Then again, when get off the Rockaways-bound "A" train at Howard Beach, you have to make the connection with the Port Authority's "Airtrain" service for an additional five dollars!
-William A. Padron
["Wash. Hts.-8th Av.Exp."]
If you would like the 2002 ridership data in Excel format, click here.
I've added some formulas that put in a column for every line, and an x in the column if the line stops at a given station. That way, say, if you want to see all the stations where the F stops, and their ridership, just sort the whole chart in descending order by the column in which the F line's X's are.
This allowed me to very quickly discover (with some quick use of the "sumif" function) following up on a recent discussion, that there are 16.6 million riders on the F at 7th Ave, Church, and beyond, and only 12.6 million at the local stations between Church and Jay that would be skipped by an express.
Click here
for the modified file that does this.
i wonder if the MTA tracks OOS transfers, like between the Lex lines at 59th and the F at 63rd...
Why was the Q running via 6 Ave with 6 cars and passengers?
-Broadway Buffer
David
Sorry for the error.
-Broadway Buffer
Are you sure they were passengers and this wasn't a school car?
-Broadway Buffer
That they have the right to do. The trick is to have a ticket and show up 2 minutes after the previous train has left. That way they can't shoo you off for 28 minutes (or longer).
Though I do visit other places sometimes. Still, Mineola is my number one photo spot.
I know they make cameras with wireless remotes, so you can frame your short ahead of time and then hope for the best, but remote viewfinder would be the bee's knees.
I absolutely agree with you that the technology has matured to a point that the bad guys will be impossible to catch and all the ban will do is annoy the honest citizens.
"There was a fence between tracks to keep people from crossing"
Wasn't this a standard thing at stations with low level platforms. Everyone keeps saying, low levels encourage people to simply walk across the tracks wherever. Well, why not go back in time and put a fence between the tracks. Give the station a nice old time feel.
Hey Nimby, this isn't from my memories (it's from a bus calendar) but check out this picture of a Freeport grade crossing from 1953. By the way, the Hempstead Bus Company still was running those exact same Macks in my neighborhood on Front Street on their East Meadow routes (today's LI Bus N-48/49) well into the late 60's.
Was Hempstead Bus headquartered on Floogle Street in the same building as Susquehanna Hat?
I get bored in one location too long, so my photographing style I guess helps me quite a bit. I have never gotten harrased yet (at least not recently, I had years ago, but that was my own fault, and another story). I usually don't stay in one place for more than two or three trains going through. I mean how many photos of trains do you need at the same angle anyway!
In this thread, I was told you had R110b sound recordings.
I would greatly appreciate it if you could send those sounds to me (jmhess@badgerville.org). I'm especially looking for a doorchime.
Thanks,
--Julian
My email is slaight5@aol.com
-Chris
Lol!
You do know that all piggybackers on Julian's threads die =) =)
lol,
Julian
(sorry, I really would like to hear those...)
Thanks,
Julian
Why do you feel compelled to resort to juvenile name-calling? From what I've gathered, you're well over 50. Too old for that nonsense.
Train Dude doesn't like to be dissed, as I learned to my woe. I sure hope you don't mind being belittled and put down, as you're going to be getting plenty of it. Basically, he thinks that peons like us aren't fit to wipe his bung hole, and won't hesitate to tell us so.
Well, if you think you can handle it, that's fine, but let me tell you it's not easy being Train Dude's doormat. You have been warned.
Well, mikey, as you get older you'll find that quality is more important than quantity. BTW: You don't count each finger seperately if that's your criteria of more.
What kind of point is he making? That cops are cowards that sh-t in their pants? I mean I have to assume that is what he means by "depends patrol". And that cops would rather harass photographers than arrest real criminals? That is a pretty serious accusation. And an untrue one at that.
Surely you would agree with the following phenomenon, though:
- Cops are expected to be productive.
- You can be productive by arresting criminals and stopping crime, or by writing summonses.
- The vast majority of cops would rather stop crime.
- A few lazy ones would rather write summonses. When they don't see any valid targets for summonses, they pick lousy targets, like people who park 14.9 feet from a hydrant, improper lettering on business awning, subway photography, etc. The Daily News has a field day with the mischief created by these relatively few lazy cops.
I cannot understand why Train Dude has such a fetish about Qtrain. Granted, Qtrain's lifestyle leaves something to be desired, but TD's obsession is just plain weird.
Now, as long as we're on the subject, peter, perhaps you'd explain something to me. Why do you feel so compelled to defend this loser? Furthermore, others here are more critical of him than I am. Why don't you criticize them as well. When I suggested that you do, the last go-round, your response was "Not a chance." Perhaps you'd like to explain your double standard.
BTW, why do you seek to embrace the lowest common demoninator?
I thought I'd explained it already. When Qtrain makes one of his "Depends" postings, you have a habit of attacking his lifestyle, without trying to counter the point he raised. It sure seems as if you can't think of a good response to his main point, and therefore resort to a cheap lifestyle shot. Other people have criticized his lifestyle, me included, but they don't do it in order to avoid having to deal with the issues he brings up.
Looking back through the thread, it appears that your "see above" comment referred to something Jeffrey Rosen had said. I have him killfiled, so that's why I didn't respond to his posting.
"No one is totally useless. They can always serve as a poor example"
It would make more sense if you addressed the points he raised rather than poking fun at his unproductive lifestyle. For instance, the next time there's a "suspicious package" alert and he goes on about the NYPD wearing Depends, instead of saying that the police have jobs unlike him, try to point out why there is still a risk of terrorism and that suspicious packages can't just be ignored.
While the MTA cannot provide a sense of security for the most nervous among us. It must provide a sense of security for the majority. If banning pix taking makes the public feel safer then the MTA needs to ban photo taking.
The proposed photo ban is more scare tactics coming out of DHS.
We just heard Tom Ridge announce another "Al Queda is going to attack the US" item. No hard info, no increase in the "magic" threat color code.
I've heard it here, I've read it in other (non-rail) places: THE TERRORISTS ALREADY HAVE THE INFO THEY WANT!!!. It's all over the Web.
There are published works on the Tracks of the New York Subway. Hard copy - bound book.
I am sure you realize that the suicide bombers who blow up buses in Israel didn't use a photograph. They just paid a fare, rode and observed and planed accordingly.
I am also sure that the McMurrah Building was not photographed by Timothy McVey before he parked that box van in front of it. He had blueprints that he obtained from the city.
The World Trade Center was hit by two airplanes used as guided missiles because our intellignce agencies screwed up, and didn't co-operate. Read the 9/11 Commision report. I did, and what scares me is that 3 years after 9/11, the intellignce agencies still don't cooperate.
I look at a photo ban as just more "window dressing. It won't add 1 iota to the overall security of the New York Subway
I'd have to say that my tolerance for risk is different from yours, without necessarily being greater or lesser. For instance, I wouldn't try motorcycling, but I have little or no fear of terrorist attacks.
While the MTA cannot provide a sense of security for the most nervous among us. It must provide a sense of security for the majority. If banning pix taking makes the public feel safer then the MTA needs to ban photo taking.
I highly doubt that the MTA conducted any sort of ridership survey before proposing the photo ban. Indeed, I strongly suspect that if riders were polled, most would have the sense to realize that a photo ban would do little or nothing in terms of making the subway more secure. The MTA says that the proposed ban is the NYPD's idea, and one thing which seems clear is that the NYPD is extremely risk-adverse, more so than it should be.
Again, based on your level of tollerance to risk. Perhaps to the average commuter, people standing along the ROW(presumably) taking pictures might be a bit more dis-quieting than you might realize. Then again, that's what the issue is about. My problem is that q-ball only sees things from his "peter-pan" view of life. He's openly contemptuous of anyone who is more cautious than he is. He's openly contemptuous of people who do their job in a way that he disagrees with even though he has no idea about how to do any job. Yet he's also openly contempuous of people who make him feel insecure such as "gangstas." His constant use of the "depends" bit is just very disparaging to many honest people who want to feel more secure. Those same people are the ones - in large part - that support q-tips 'peter-pan' lifestyle.
False statement and illogical. If a majority of the riding public feels better because anyone speaking a foreign language and wearing a turban or a thobe and gutra is strip searched before boarding a train, should we do that?
Common sense must have some influence here. and your statement is unsupportable.
There's no logical basis for a photo ban.
Are you promoting a perception of security over actual security?
If the public feels safer if the C/R does a somersault before opening the doors, would you suggest that C/R’s be required to do somersaults before opening the doors?
It must provide a sense of security for the majority. If banning pix taking makes the public feel safer then the MTA needs to ban photo taking.
That's an interesting thought. Do you actually think that the MTA is proposing the photo pseudo-ban (i.e., permits required) because it will make the majority of the public feel more secure? That's the first less than totally cyncial potential explanation for their motives that I've heard.
Or maybe he, like me, simply believes that these "terrorist" threats are grotesquely exaggerated. It's not necessarily a matter of how much one has to lose.
Frank Hicks
Frank Hicks
This past weekend, I just missed the R train FOUR times (twice on Saturday, once on Sunday, once on Monday) leaving 95th or 86th since I didn't know which schedule it was running on.
How can we find out what's the schedule for each weekend, since it always seems to change ALMOST EVERY weekend? The people at 718 330 1234 always get it wrong.
-Broadway Buffer
For example, sometimes there's a 12:28pm/12:40pm/12:52pm Saturday schedule out of 95th. Other days, there's a 12:31pm/12:43pm/12:55pm Saturday schedule out of 95th. Other days, there's a 12:30pm/12:38pm/12:46pm Saturday schedule out of 95th. And other days, there's a schedule I just haven't learned yet. Practically every Saturday it's a new schedule!!!
It's frustrating to just miss a train and wait up to 12 minutes for another.
Robert
What I suggest you do is just allow a little more time for your trip. This way if you miss the train you'll pic up another one and not waste time.
-Broadway buffer
I live in Bay Ridge near 86 St, so I have to take the R, but I think it has it's purpose. Its the only line that connects Queens, Manhattan, and Brooklyn with ALL local service via Broadway. And up until recently, that N was a horror on weekends when it terminated at Atlantic/Pacific on weekends. That sucked much more that the R does. But now it is much better.
-Broadway Buffer
Trip Reg. Supt#1 Supt#2
CTL 14:00 14:19 14:18
95 16:38 16:32 16:34
CTL 19:07 Same 19:06
95 21:07 Same 21:10
I have other somewere else but I can't find them. I alway hope that the Crew Reporting Center at CTL have the Suptlements for the weekend come up by Thusday to see how my job changes. This is very inportent to me becouse is a matter of making a bus from the PA or have to wait 45mins to 1 hour for the next bus. So I know how you fell about not knowing Broadway Buffer.
Robert
*This does not include two stations nearby like Broadway (G) and Hewes (J/M) or Junius (3) and Livonia (L).
I know a few that are long like Court Sq and 7th to 6th Ave transfer at 14 St, but I can't figure our what the longest of all is.
Anyone know or have a good idea?
-Broadway Buffer
Thank you
-Broadway Buffer
Easy. From the C (coming from Bway-Nassau and points South) to the E (going to 7th Av and points North) at any station between Canal St and 42nd St.
Other contenders are southbound 4/5 to 2/3 at Fulton, southbound 2/3 to F at 14th, northbound A/C/E to shuttle at 42nd, northbound C to shuttle at Franklin.
One particularly annoying one, though not terribly long, is E to 2/3 at WTC / Park Place.
As for shortest: probably northbound 2/3 to northbound 4/5 at Borough Hall, unless you’re counting simple level changes, as at 145/St. Nicholas, 86/Lex, Nostrand/Fulton, and West 8th.
Shortest I would say is 14 St from the BMT to the L
-Broadway Buffer
For shortest, I'd add 59th/Lex and Canal(6, JMZ to the NQ).
It's an entire city block!
-RJM
The big question is: which is longer? 8th to 7th or 7th to 6th. The Penguin Atlas of New York is at such a huge scale, that when I look at it some day soon, I'll try to figure it out.
I do know that 6th to 5th is the absolute longest distance of them all, but because the 7 train at 42&5th is really halfway to 6th Avenue, that can't be the longest transfer. If only there were a free transfer from 57&6th to 60&5th, we'd have a winner.
I'm pretty sure that would be the longest. 6 to 2/3 at fulton doesn't seem that bad to me (unless you get lost, it is confusing). I don't think the distance between broadway and william streets, despite being two blocks, is as great as between 8th and 7th ave.
Almost identical, at approx 4 short blocks each. Therefore northbound A/C/E to shuttle is longer because of the 2 north-south blocks you have to travel, for a total of 6 equivalent short blocks, i.e., 6/20 miles.
The big question is: which is longer? 8th to 7th or 7th to 6th. The Penguin Atlas of New York is at such a huge scale, that when I look at it some day soon, I'll try to figure it out.
I do know that 6th to 5th is the absolute longest distance of them all, but because the 7 train at 42&5th is really halfway to 6th Avenue, that can't be the longest transfer. If only there were a free transfer from 57&6th to 60&5th, we'd have a winner.
That isn't really very far at all, provided you choose the right entrance to the District/Piccadilly line station.
"St Pancras Interim to KXSP Met"
Now that *is* a hell of a long walk, but one end of it isn't a tube station.
Both of these are above-ground transfers. I think the thread is meant to be about within-system ones, in which case JohnL's proposal of Bank to Monument probably stands, so far as London is concerned.
Also Provenca L6/7 to Line 3 is a long one, too. But Passeig de Gracia wins hands down. It's at least 1/4 mile.
(Hey ! That's not "I before E except------" -- - had to check the dictionary ! )
I had to do that once when my Bakerloo Line train got stuck at Charing X because of a signal failure (always happens on the Bakerloo). Then I had to get a bus from Warren St to Marylebone.
Mind the gap!
'twas Charing Cross Embankment in between... :-)
I probably still have a tube map showing Fleet line under construction, back at my folks' home.
Now that *is* a hell of a long walk, but one end of it isn't a tube station.
It's enough to make me wish that trains from Leicester called at Kentish Town!
Other looong transfers are Court St[M,R] to Boro Hall [2,3,4,5], and 42 St [A, C, E] to Times Sq [1,2,3,7,9, N, Q, R, S, W].
Try any of the ones I mentioned in my post. Much, much, much longer.
Both stations used to have direct underpasses, BTW.
Franklin IND and 9th Street BMT require a lot of up-and-down.
-The L to the 1,2,3,9 Lines at 6th Ave/14th.
-The 8th Ave line to the TImes Square shuttle.
One of the shortest (or easiest) has to be the L to the N/R/Q/W at Union Square
The transfer from the 2/3 at 14th Street and the F at 14th Street is just as difficult.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
FULTON STREET any given line can be a real biatch to walk to/from.
avid
If I am thinking of the same scene you are thinking of, he is running through an old elevated freight yard in the Kensington neighborhood of Philly. The bridge you see carries the Market-Frankford El over the yard. Ride the El today, and you'll still go over the yard, only it is now overgrown and looks like it hasn't been used in quite some time. I think it's just south of Somerset station.
I'm starting to think that I didn't see a spur to Bay Ridge, and I think the yard was in a cut, so if those to are true, than it can't be Fresh Pond.
You're probably right on this one. Thanks.
If you check out the scene, do you see any R-series cars in it? No. You see the old "Almond Joy" Budd cars of the MFSE.
I do agree with the dumb tourist bit though.
Just don't do it in front of the train~
Sheesh!
A guy on PATCO once said the same thing to me: "You want to trade? If you sat in my seat 8 hours a day 5 days a week, you wouldn't want to videotape these tracks anymore!" Just one day a week would be okay by me, I thought.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Looks like the foamer's gonna get that old run down feeling !
Bill "Newkirk"
to link to an online album, use (a href=album url)linkage text you might wanna use(/a) (again substitute < for ( and no quotation marks)
You can see it if you're viewing a post with pics and use your browser's 'view source' command and search for 'img src' or 'a href'.
Did you board your ACMU at Grand Central? I noticed that neither one I saw at 125th stopped there.
Your pal,
Fred
If I go on to Nycsubway, and I click on the random images box, and I type in the url in the adress bar, here is what happens:
http://www.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/aboutimg.cgi?bimg_6135.jpg>
see, little white x's.
If I click on properties, then copy the url from the properties window, this is what I get:
http://www.nycsubway.org/img/i6000/img_6135.jpg>
P.S. you must include the http://www. in your url, or youll probably see little white x's too
It's img src= and not img src>
Your pal,
Fred
Yup, mee too, but what the people on the street do not want to be bombarded with pop bottles, nachos, sandwiches, and other stuff that some kiddies think is cool to do.
Elias
Your pal,
Dorito
You take a foil bag of nachos, you add the meat and cheese and stuff to the bag (I don't know what all the do at these rodeos out here, I limit myself to natural food like a hotdog (though it sures a 7734 not a Nathan's)).. in any event they eat this slop out of the bag with a fork.
If you don't toss this stuff before you eat it you are likely to do so shortly afterwards.
:(-
Elias
Hey I finally did it the right way>
I did get a shot of a northbound ACMU at Spuyten Duyvil though.
Hope your trip was fun and I'm looking forward to the photos.
Your pal,
Fred
Eastchester 5 express- Noise reduction
Woodlawn 4 express - noise reduction
Flatbush 5- Noise reduction
Flatbush 5- integrated mic
Manhattan 5 pelham pky next- noise reduction
Manhattan 5 pelham pky next- integrated mic
Manhattan 5 freeman next- integrated mic
Woodlawn 4- integrated mic
And on the R142A's
Recorded yesterday- noise reduction
Back from early march- integrated mic
Post your thoughts :)
story in Thursday's Star Ledger
Once that was a done deal, all the rest is damage control. Taking some of the passengers out of Penn Station, which will have limited entrances and exits isn’t a bad idea.
Since when do the govenor or the mayor have anything to do with scheduling events at MSG ??? People call MSG and schedule an event (if they got enough bucks)
What *can* happen, is that the mayor and or govenor can tell the political parties that their conventions are no longer welcome in NYC and to go hold it elsewither!
Elias
The exits to Penn that are being closed are the least used ones.
The 2 high volume street exits to 7th Ave will remain open as (presumably, I haven't heard to the contrary) the 2 high volume exits to the 2 subways.
The people who are being screwed (in a small way) by the convention are those who work west of Penn. They'll have to exit at 7th Ave, or else pay a subway fare to exit at 34th and 8th. They are equally screwed whether they come into Penn or into 6th and 33rd.
Depending on how rusted some of them are if you try to remove too much you could reveal places where the rust has eaten through the metal (they are all metal). There is no porcelan on any of them - just paint on metal.
The value of some vintage items can be reduced if certain things are removed. In this case the rust shows age and that can be part of the value (I watch Antiques Roadshow a lot).
The less they are exposed to air the better (or they could rust more).
Over all you got a nice batch of signs. I was tempted to bid but I already have a good number of the ones that were offered and am running out of space to properly store them.
Congrats on winning the gems!!
Does anyone know where these run and what tracks they are using?
A Brill 1930 motor car is making the trips on Thursdays and Fridays during July and August.
The trips are operated by the Black River & Western.
Does their line run back to the Delaware and then all the way up to Phillipsburg?
They don't. The Black River & Western operates between Ringoes and Flemington and farther northeast to Three Bridges, where it connects with NS for freight service. The track extends southwest from Ringoes to Lambertville where it used to connect with the Bel-Del, but the track from Ringoes to Lambertville has been embargoed.
I rode a charter in 1977 that was supposed to cover the entire BR&W, but a truck crashed into a railroad bridge taking it out of service, so to compensate for missing part of the BR&W, they entered the Bel-Del in Lambertville and ran up several miles and back again.
On a whole-railroad charter in 1998 we went to Lambertville Station, but that part of the railroad was subsequently embargoed.
Any equipment to be moved from the BR&W to the Bel-Del in Phillipsburg would have to go via NS at Three Bridges.
I havent ridden either the Thu/Fri Brill car or the Sat/Sun NYS&W 142 at Phillipsburg yet, but I intend to.
The BR&W provides a nice ride from Ringoes, and has some interesting equipment stored there.
PRR doodlebug
Burro crane
Erie Caboose
Maine Central caboose
WASHINGTON (AP) - The two-car late-night Metro trains are history for now, and may be officially scrapped real soon. General Manager Richard White says the ultra-small trains have been too crowded on most lines.
Metro started running them Sunday through Thursday nights on June 27, with an eye toward saving $1 million a year. But, it only lasted four days after hundreds of complaints poured in from disgruntled riders, who also got hit with a fare hike.
White says for now they'll continue running four-car trains at night. The Metro Board is expected to consider changing the policy in a couple of weeks, but in the meantime, White has leeway to run the bigger trains because of a safety issue.
4-car MUs should be the absolute minimum. I'd go with 6 for the Red Line.
Yes. A number of articles about the crowding have been posted to this board.
To be more precise. The on board train control hardware is spread between the married pairs The antenna used to control precise station stops is located under the draw bar of the married pairs.
John
Modernization projects at C. B. Moore [Columbia], Allegheney, and Wyoming have reduced the station size to 7 cars [actually 7 1/2 cars] on one side or both sides.
Wyoming and Cecil B. Moore were both shortened at the northernmost end of the northbound platform. 8th Street can still hold 8 cars. Strange that it can, IIRC, when PATCO took over the Bridge Line and the lower platform at 8th Street (thus eliminating ANY potential for free interchange between Ridge and Market-Fankford Line trains, as without some of the partitioning between the PATCO paid area and the Ridge Spur current platform, all you'd need is an elevator from PATCO to either MFL platform to have the interchange), the upper level was built (thus offsetting the opening date of 8th Street Station, as the current affair was built after Fern Rock, but before Pattison), and this was close to the time SEPTA shortened the other stops. 8th Street has some equipment and electronics and crew rooms on the platform, though... Still, it's weird SEPTA never alled those parts off.
And, from what you say, it sounds even more like married pairs would be PERFECT for the BSL.
Back to WMATA matters, I doubt very much they' go to single-units, no matter how needed they may be. I'm unsure of the amount of space used on a 4-car consist, but I don't think 3-car trains would fare much better than 2-car trains. Given the way WMATA set their system up, it seems as if they had PLANNED to use only married pairs all along.
The MFL, back in the days before the bus substitution at night ran every half-hour with a one-car train (one of their singles) and you paid the conductor who had a portable bus cash deposit machine.
BTW, a Philadelphia single car is easily recognized because there is a motorman's cab at both ends.
PATCO used to use a single car on that line, now they use a 2 car train made up of 2 singles [100 series], and keep one car closed.
Finally, the BSL NEVER had married pairs. The old red cars, as well as the old Bridge Line cars were single units. The current fleet are actually single units, but the 500 series are single-end [one cab], and the 600 series are double-end [two cabs].
It does. However it was decided than later rejected to run two car trains for late evening service.
DayOpeningClosingMonday-Thursday5:30 a.m.midnightFriday5:30 a.m.3 a.m. SaturdaySaturday7 a.m.3 a.m. SundaySunday7 a.m.midnight
John
Second, the trains are infrequent enough as it is. Four of the lines run every 20 minutes after 10 PM, allowing 10-minute frequency on the shared sections only. The Red Line has no short-run (Silver Spring-Grosvenor) after 8:30 PM, and their late-evening service is one train every 15 minutes. At that time of night in New York, it's every 12 minutes or so on most lines. Even the overnight bus substitutions in Philadelphia run every 10-15 minutes.
I do wonder, though, if an all-night service will be in Metro's future one day...
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Here are two reasons why you will likely never see 24 hour service.
The metropolitan Washington area does not have an economy that has a significant amount of people working in shift type jobs to support 24 hour operations.
System maintenance projects that can only be done when no trains are operating.
John
http://www.nycsubway.org/bmt/bmtbway/bmt-broadway-lch.html
The platform and walls are in remarkably good shape, considering their age. I guess the fact that there is no customer traffic or trains rumbling in and out on a regular basis is keeping the station young.
Trains are stored down there so trains run in and out all the time .
Compare that to a station that never sees trains or passengers - 9th Ave lower - now that one really is falling apart .
I have no explanation why City Hall held up so well because although it doesn't get regular passengers, it does get trains all the time .
That one used to see trains and passengers - quite a bit. One of the problems could be that, although is it "underground" it is still indirectly exposed to the elements at either end. The temperatures down there are probably more extreme that a regular underground subway station. That would do a lot of damge over the years.
--Julian
I suppose it's possible, although maybe not *likely* that the 2nd Avenue subway line could use City Hall Under as a terminal for a 2nd Ave-Broadway route. Maybe they cleaned it up some to show it off to interested parties while discussing the 2nd Avenue project.
http://www.mcny.org/Research/FAP/subintro.htm
If you go to the main page www.mcny.org and use the "search" feature and use keywords like subway you will get other listings (including the individual pages for the above). If you use "elevated" you will get listings for various vintage El photos.
The MCNY will have 3 exhibitions on the subway in October (I don't know the exact dates or subject matter, so don't ask).
The el was standing and fully operating while the subway underneath was being built.
--Mark
We have seen other "false" starts on sections of the IND. This could have been one of them had events been different.
HA!YARIGHT!!That's the one thing the NYPD and the MTA DON'T DO!Everyone in both places are full of people with ZERO common sense!If they had any common sense,we wouldn't be fighting against a photography ban.Not only that,I'd GLADLY throw a huge party celebrating the start of the People With Brains Era which will mark the end of the People With No Brains Era.
Da Hui
1. Tracks 1-5 of NYP are extended to existing GCT lower level tracks, allowing NJT to serve GCT.
2. ESA as planned. New lower lower level of GCT.
3. New LIRR GCT level extended to a new lower level of NYP via a 3 track tunnel. The new lower level of NYP would be 8 tracks wide, 4 tracks total. However, only 6 of those tracks, 3 on each side of 2 center tracks would be used by LIRR trains via GCT. These 6 tracks would connect to West Side Yard.
4. New Hudson River tunnel, 2 tracks, possibly 3. The tunnel would be made big enough for double stacked freight. All 3 tracks connect to existing NJT tracks at NYP. 2 of the tracks would also branch off to the new lower level of NYP. These would be the 2 center tracks mentioned in part 3. Basically, these tracks would also have platforms(as part of the 8 track 4 platform NYP lower level). These 2 tracks would also have clearance for double stacked freights. They would also allow trains to switch to the 2 side tracks when traveling westbound. Then, at the east end of NYP, the 2 tracks go up, under the east river, and then connect with the lower montauk in the LIC area. There'd also be a new underground LIC station, unless the tunnel can be made so that the tracks can enter the existing LIC station, which I doubt.
So basically, part 4 allows for a new freight tunnel as well as for LIRR trains via Lower Montauk to go to NYP, making a damn good use for the Lower Montauk.
So there. LIRR has a new lower level for trains using ESA or the Lower Montauk, NJT has their new tunnel under the hudson, which is tied in with a new freight tunnel, eliminating the need for a cross harbor tunnel.
1. Tracks 1-5 of NYP are extended to existing GCT lower level tracks, allowing NJT to serve GCT.
Okay. Just make sure to dodge all the skyscraper foundations, subway tunnels, and whatnot.
2. ESA as planned. New lower lower level of GCT.
Would this be an expansion of the existing lower level or an addition of a level below the existing lower level? If digging under the current GCT, be VERY careful to make sure it doesn't fall down, or some tower doesn't fall down onto it.
3. New LIRR GCT level extended to a new lower level of NYP via a 3 track tunnel. The new lower level of NYP would be 8 tracks wide, 4 tracks total. However, only 6 of those tracks, 3 on each side of 2 center tracks would be used by LIRR trains via GCT. These 6 tracks would connect to West Side Yard.
Same comments as the ones I made about GCT, but I'm applying those comments to Penn Station as well.
4. New Hudson River tunnel, 2 tracks, possibly 3. The tunnel would be made big enough for double stacked freight. All 3 tracks connect to existing NJT tracks at NYP. 2 of the tracks would also branch off to the new lower level of NYP. These would be the 2 center tracks mentioned in part 3. Basically, these tracks would also have platforms(as part of the 8 track 4 platform NYP lower level). These 2 tracks would also have clearance for double stacked freights.
Could railroad tracks in the Metropolitan Area be modified to handle Amtrak Superliners? Could the tunnels? If so, then double-decked passenger cars would be no problem, and folks would have ample headroom in them as well. In addition, if Madison Sq Garden falls down in the middle of all this, who gets the blame and who pays to rebuild?
They would also allow trains to switch to the 2 side tracks when traveling westbound. Then, at the east end of NYP, the 2 tracks go up, under the east river, and then connect with the lower montauk in the LIC area. There'd also be a new underground LIC station, unless the tunnel can be made so that the tracks can enter the existing LIC station, which I doubt.
So basically, part 4 allows for a new freight tunnel as well as for LIRR trains via Lower Montauk to go to NYP, making a damn good use for the Lower Montauk.
So there. LIRR has a new lower level for trains using ESA or the Lower Montauk, NJT has their new tunnel under the hudson, which is tied in with a new freight tunnel, eliminating the need for a cross harbor tunnel.
Why not allow the "freight" tunnels to handle Amtrak jumbo trains every once in a while?
Hey, I'm just going by the ARC plan.
"Would this be an expansion of the existing lower level or an addition of a level below the existing lower level? If digging under the current GCT, be VERY careful to make sure it doesn't fall down, or some tower doesn't fall down onto it. "
I'm saying this as per ESA plans. In case you didn't know, LIRR is going to build a NEW lower level, beneath the existing lower level of GCT, so yes, I'm saying an additional level beneath the existing one, like in the ESA plan.
"Same comments as the ones I made about GCT, but I'm applying those comments to Penn Station as well. "
Yes, an entirely new lower level of NYP.
"Could railroad tracks in the Metropolitan Area be modified to handle Amtrak Superliners? Could the tunnels? If so, then double-decked passenger cars would be no problem, and folks would have ample headroom in them as well. In addition, if Madison Sq Garden falls down in the middle of all this, who gets the blame and who pays to rebuild? "
The current LIRR C3s provide ample headroom. And yeah, I bet tracks in the area could be modified to handle superliners, but remember, superliners require low level platforms. LIRR C3s cant do that, unless you have a low platform with ramps built here and there for the doors of the LIRR cars. The superliner doors would stop where the platform is all low.
And if MSG falls down, it'd be a gift from God, as then we could rebuild the original NYP (:
"Why not allow the "freight" tunnels to handle Amtrak jumbo trains every once in a while?"
You mean superliners? Hey, I'd love to see Superliners at NYP, but stupid LIRR decided to buy double deckers that can only stop at high level platforms. If they bought cars like MBTA has, then LIRR and Superliner could share the same platforms for the 2 center tracks.
Hmmmm.....maybe widden the space between the 2 center and put in a low level platform there.....yeah! But wait....then where will the Superliners go. It'd be impossible to build a connection to Sunnyside bound tracks. Unless Amtrak were to take LIC yard, or atleast just have the superliners there....that may work.....
I like the idea(though I always did favor simply running the superliners to Hoboken).
Let's just hope it doesn't kill anyone on the way down - and that a new MSG can be built elsewhere without driving the Company bankrupt.
T1-HighLev-T2-T3-HighLev-T4-LowLev-T5-HighLev-T6-T7-HighLev-T8
T=track
Highlev= High level platform
Lowlev= Low level platform
The LIRR into GCT may be worthwhile because much of it is in place already and it would free up space at NYP.
They couldn't bear it either. That's why things like the RER and Thameslink got built. In Paris, all of the terminals except Montparnasse already have some of their service diverted to the RER. Unfortunately in London, it may take a while before we see CrossRail and other new projects built.
12-9?
Most likely a report of something "suspicious" like a photographer or some donut sugar on the floor. :-)
Any word about the new layup tracks north of Roosevelt?
I remember the station reopened by 1:30.
The only police officers I saw outside the station were two traffic cops yelling at a driver who parked in the QBx1 bus stop.
-RJM
-Robert King
-Robert King
Another way to find out is to use some search engines instead of filling up the bandwidth with questions. Happy surfing . . .
If you want the answer here: 1994.
From teh tribune.
Yep, i'm gonna overkill this until I see a golden railroad spike in the ground.
Mark
I think maybe the Florida East Coast railroad would count.
Seminole Gulf Railway - 115 miles of track in fort myers.
Florida Central Railroad, now possibly a dinner train.
There's lots of shortlines that i think woud apply.
But I bet most passenger rail has those words in the name though.
The story that Hays Watkins came up with the name is pure fantasy. Watkins was a railroader, and KNEW that reporting marks ending in X are private (non-railroad) car owners (GATX, RBOX,UTLX, etc).
Best comment on CSX: The Baltimore Belt Line passes right over our property at BSM. Since things occaisonially drop off trains, we don't pass under the bridge when a moving train is on it.
I was inbound with our Peter Witt, 6119, and was stopped, waiting for a southbound CSX train to clear. As the diesels passed over, with the big CSX on the sides, a lady on the car asked me what CSX stood for. I replied "CSX, it doesn't stand for anything."
The name CSX is why all the cars it owns have the reporting mark CSXT.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Huh?
The Charter reads "Long Island Rail Road Company" The tickets were always printer "Long Island Railroad Co."
Elias
Under current NYS law, the word Company is not a valid way to show that a business is incorporated. The current statute requires business corporations set up under it to use Corporation, Incorporated, Limited, or some abbreviation of one of those laws. Fail to comply, your papers don't get filed. Your papers don't get filed, you're a general partnership. Of course, that doesn't necessarily apply to a corporation with an old legislative charter.
The roads named the most deadly to fourth deadliest in New York State was the Suffolk County portions of Route 25, Sunrise Highway, the Long Island Expressway, and Route 25A.
Over the past four years, the five roads in Suffolk combined have claimed more than 250 lives. County officials believe substandard conditions of the roads, high traffic volumes and an increased number of aggressive drivers contribute to the Suffolk’s high ranking.
www.news12.com
---------------------------------------------------------------
Another reason I stick to transit
I would do so too.
I know that this isnt that related to this, but in the papers a few days ago, it said that someone 'burned' a 20'x20' nazi swastika on a Staten Island intersection. I live about 3 blocks from the site it happened. I heard that the 2 sick fucks that did it were caught and the DOT tarred over it (from what Ive seen myself).
I hope that the Long Island gets safer soon.
-Chris {{Coming soon!=TransitPics.com!!!}}
Also many of the roads are very long and straight which leads to speeding. You can go on Sunrise Highway from Lindenhurst, one block after the LIRR overpass, to Southhampton with no lights, a distance of probably 50 miles. Can't say that in the smaller counties.
One road on the list, Route 25A a/k/a Northern Boulevard, is a very windy and hilly road from when it enters Suffolk County in Cold Spring Harbor all the way to Miller Place.
Queens Blvd, known as the Boulevard of Death, was #8.
You took the words right out of my mouth!
Also the deaths weren't broken down into categories. How many deaths due to DWI vs. mechanical problems of the cars, vs. driver stupidity.
Story here:
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wire/ny-bc-ny--court-mediacases0701jul01,0,4638346.story?coll=ny-ap-regional-wire
A woman walked in front of my car about 8 spaces from where I was toward the store she wanted to visit. She was walking very slowing since she was talking on a cell-phone, totally oblivious to anything around here.
I honked the horn, lightly, to tell her to move. She was stunned to realize that there was someone else in the world besides her and her phone. I told my wife that had I been further along in the aisle, the dame probably would have walked into the side of my car.
You know who would be blamed for that event, even though she was walking between two parked cars and not in a cross-walk.
I'd like to see a pedestrian ticketed for jaywalking, but that never happens...
After all, the stupid pedestrian puts himself at primary risk, while the stupid motorist puts others at risk.
David, you must be talking about those hand signals that drivers place out to signal that sort of thing, right?
Other than mentions in a Driver's Ed manual, I've never seen use of these signals.
Anyway, by yield to pedestrians in a crosswalk, that means that cars must stop for pedestrians in a crosswalk to cross in front of the car.
True, but Sunrise Highway is a limited-access highway in that stretch, and therefore suitable for higher speeds.
Shucks, and I was looking for a gay road.
Oh sorry...
I have found the worst and sacriest driving on the NE Turnpike coming back from Branford. I mean, I have nothing against driving at 75mph. I do that all of the time, after all, that is the speed limit out here. Heck I even drove 98 mph for a 75 mile run to Bismarck one night...
But there (CT, NY, LI, and PA) it is the road construction and the traffic. I have never seen such narrow, congested roads (and never mind that I have ridden on those roads ever since they were built... they looked bigger when I was smaller, and Daddy was doing the driving)
But the congestion is the big thing. Here the speed limit is 75, and NOBODY drives any faster than that. Do you know why?...
BECAUSE THERE IS NOBODY IN FRONT OF YOU TO PASS!
And *that* is what makes city driving so dangerous. People gotta get ahead of one another until a road designed for 50 MPH (or 40 mph if you are on the Merritt) has traffic running at 70 to 75 mph. And the cops can do nothing about it.
Out here (back in sensible ND) the State Patrol always runs their cars about 10 MPH below the speed limit, DARING you to pass them, which of course you *can* do with impunity, but that way the states saves money on gas, and the officers get to eyeball more cars and drivers that way.
Back roads are different. Speed limit is 65 on state (ie paved) roads, but those are ONLY patroled by Sheriff Darwin, and he does not bother with tickets. When he takes you off the road, you will never drive again.
Elias
Also not fun -- those parkway entrances/exits without acceleration/deceleration ramps. Floor it or die.
The Interboro probably didn't make the list because its not a very long road (5 miles long I think). Also it isn't supposed to have truck traffic and probably doesn't have the volume of other roads. Less volume, less chance for accidents.
Well, I'll stick up for the DOT on this one.
The road was built in the 1950s to 1950 specifications, and the area was urbanized since then to the point that adequate corrections to the road could not now be made.
The lanes are more narrow than what would be built now,
The guard rails are shorter than what would be built now,
It was designed for 50 mph IINM albeit it was once posted for 65.
OK it is poorly designed by today's standards, but that does not absolve the drivers from restricting their driving methods to the nature of the road as it exists today.
Elias
Billy Joel
Yes, this is BAD. I have never liked that. A kid was killed in Bismarck many years ago just because of this.
The driver in the left lane stopped to let the kid cross, the driver in the right lane assumed the ohter guy was waiting to turn left and passed to the right at speed.
Either have well marked crossings with red lights to stop traffic, or else let the traffic keep moving, and cross through the traffic one lane at a time.
Elias
help!
thanks
Signs pointing to the Brooklyn-bound G track said "G trains to Coney Island" (this would appear to be correct).
Signs for "F trains to Manhattan" were posted on the other platform, pointing to the Euclid-Avenue-bound track. Can this be correct? Wouldn't the Manhattan-bound F trains be on the Manhattan-bound A/C track, not the Euclid-Avenue-bound track?
In other words, shouldn't both types of signs be posted on the same platform?
On the other platform, where the signs had originally been incorrectly placed, there are signs pointing upstairs for the "F to Manhattan".
Mike
wayne
wayne
Don't belive the FBI, CIA or DHS is anything like what the NSDAP had.
In fact, the first two are starting to look like The Gang that Couldn't Shoot Straight.
BTW, during WWII the Government paid photographers to shoot scenes of cities, war workers on local transit, and people going about their daily business.
They have all been scanned, I believe in the National Archives and on their website, searchable by city/state. I stumbled on the site by accident and got 25 shots of streetcars, trolley coaches and buses, some in the Carroll Park Shops in the war years.
Da Hui
True - we have those dark, swarthy tans we get from staring at the brilliant white SubTalk background all day.
And those photographer's vests, fanny packs, rail-oriented t-shirts and the subway memorabilia hanging from our clothes just screams "Islamic fundamentalist militant terrorist."
And the foaming at the mouth when an R-32 F consist pulls in at Smith and 9th...
Truckers and bus drivers are being trained to be on the lookout for suspicious behavior (like "people taking pictures of bridges") and to report it in to a "secret" toll-free number where all information is logged and reviewed to see if police should be contacted.
I was surprised, though, that Ashcroft can do a pretty good job at holding a tune -- I always took him for a tone-deaf nincompoop, but now I just have to see him as a nincompoop.
But as we approach November with nothing else in favor of the incumbency, look for a neverending array of these politically-motivated Ministry of Truth sponsored events. After all, if there was a REAL terrorist attack on the way, we wouldn't remain at "national yellow" ... and the American people, being SO gullible, look to Biff and Bunny Anchorperson for their mood of the day and actually BELIEVE this stuff. LOOK! He's got a CAMERA! RUN for your lives! We all gonna die! :(
Weapons of Mass Distraction.
Back to the OP's experience, I think a lot of the authoritarians are going to rue the day that cell phones began to include a camera...
Your pal,
Fred
In fact, during the late 80s, they tried to do a subway in Havana, but the funds dried up once the Soviet subsidies vanished in 1992. They eventually resorted to using busses made of pink-colored carriages and double doors in front and back pulled by a 18-wheeler cab vehicle called "Camellos". Don't ask me how I know about that. :) The Feds don't want us "americans" going to cuba and partaking in the tinejeras/os trolling the streets of Havana and having a good time. Just pick up a travel guide from Cuba .. the one by D+K has a picture of a Camello bus.
Anyhow, I know that's off decorum, but I just had to interject that point about the Havana Subway that died in action.
Watch out, John. Remarks like those make it seem as though you're joining the Depends group!
It was his right to just refuse to show her pictures! Don't complain that your camera was searched when you allowed the PA officer to do it. You have a right to refuse, so it's nothing but his own fault for being angry. He didn't bother to use his rights, then he complains. I'm sure he's a nice guy and everything, but it's just amazing how stupid some people can be.
"This is yet ANOTHER violation of personal liberty."
If something seems suspicious, the cop has the right to stop you no matter how stupid it is. Its not a violation of personal liberty, what country are you living in?
-Broadway Buffer
-Broadway Buffer
The creator of this thread feels strongly enough about this incident to share it with everyone here, and I for one am grateful. We need to be aware of what is happening to our fundamental way of living in this country.
Obviously you do not share these concerns. Fine. That is your right, and as a fellow American, I will defend it. But don't put down or insult others who feel differently and express themselves accordingly. That is neither right nor fair.
Of course not - it could be a top-secret shortwave transponder decoding 128-bit encrypted messages from Osama bin Laden.
>>No wonder I dont go to the city that much anymore. <<
Yeah, you better not - John Ashcroft knows what you're up to with that Al Qaeda transceiver disguised as a Walkman. And his agents have plenty of fresh diapers.
-Robert King
It's REALLY time for America to grow a brainstem, no matter how tenuous the task might be. Our GOVERNMENT allowed the terrorists to take us out in 2001, the VERY people responsible for it are *IN* office and November's coming. They want to punish *US*?!?! Ummm ... reality check time ... last stop, everybody off ...
-Broadway Buffer
And you can't declare war on a noun. The war on terror will be no more effective than the war on drugs or poverty and will only end when this planet is devoid of consious life. The recent trends are barely excusable in a real war and not at all in a faux war.
I only laughed.
Car 6499 (I think) on an uptown (2) express train, about an hour ago.
May be subtalk should order some stickers too!
Well, I know some of u out there aren't afraid to vandalize subways.
-Broadway Buffer
-Broadway Buffer
It's very easy to make fake GO's:
wow....I know some people hate the G,but this is crazy....
- Karma Konditioned Car
Please watch what you do.
The 2 and 5 swapped fleets in 1995. Before 1995, the 5 ran R-33's and the 2 ran R-26/28/29's.
Would you mind if I used one of those pictures for a little mock 'if you see something say something' thing I'm doing? I have a few odd photos of my own for this project but could use more and I somehow doubt I'll be able to track down that train before they pull the stickers....
Our itinary is as follows:
Take the 4:54 LIC To Oyster Bay Train which arrives in Oyster Bay at 6:19. We then plan on going back to Jamaica on the 6:33 Oyster Bay - Jamaica Train.
If anyone's interested in joining us, reply here, and make sure I have a way to contact you tommorow.
Just a note, Zone 1 to Zone 7 Peak is $8.75 one way, Off Peak $6.00 one way.
Is your subtalk email address valid? If so i'll send you some contact info.
You still work near Flatbush Ave? I go to school/work right near there.
A: The "Q"
Regards,
Alex Trebek
You must transfer your photo to a website that accepts photos, then when the photo has a url, you link the url to SubTalk using the instructions previously given. Those instructions assumed that you knew that the photo first had to be uploaded to another website.
Yes *that* part is true.
You cannot post your photos on subtalk.
You *can* post your photos somewhere and then make a link to them in your post.
If you do not know squat about HTML, then get a book on the subject. HTML for dummies is more than you will ever want to know.
Even without doint that much, you can open an account on some photo site and just build a photo album there, and make a link pointing to it in your post.
You could open a free web site somewhere, that is a lot of fun, but most of the free ones will not let you post pictures, only pages, that maigh have pictures on them.
Or you could PAY to open a web site of your own, most may sites do allow you to post pictures directly.
HTML commands are inclosed in broken brackets < > and are called "tags" Usually there is an Open and a Close tag.
The command to post a picture is IMG SRC="http://yourwebsite.com/Photos/myphoto.jpg"
And do remember that it is an HTML tag (enclosed in < > broken brackets).
And *that* is about as easy as I could make it. So if you do not know what I said, then buy the book!
: ) Elias
Trust me on that!
HTML is fun and fairly easy. Get the book! Read the Book. Start making your own website. I recommend Tripod over Geocities for free web sites.
You will not be able to link photos, but you can link to a page.
See, here is a photo on my website at Tripod. I cannot link to the photo, but I can link to the page
Thats what I use for my pics on my site linked below.
-Chris(transitpics.com-COMING SOON!)
That option is best, of course.
Of course what I did not mention is that you *could* run a web server from your own computer. But if someone does not yet know how to post a picture here without that, then you certainly do not want to expose your computer to the internet in that manner.
There is web hosting software built into Win2K and WinXP which in the good wisdom (oxymoronn, eh?) of Microsoft, is not installed by default, but you *could* install it if you knew what you are doing.
You would also need a Static IP number, and/or a Domain name that points to your system, and an ISP that will permit you to run a server via your connection.
But you had better know something about firewalls before you try this, and probably want to host it on a computer that will do no damage to your network if it is compromised.
Elias
wayne
-Chris-transitpics.com-COMING soon.
wayne
-Chris-transitpics.com-COMING soon.
-Chris(transitpics.com-COMING SOON!)
At this station, trains appear to be running lefthanded on one level and righthanded on a different level.
-Chris
-Chris
That explains much. Thank you!
And at Fulton BMT, the doors open on the left in both directions. At Essex, though...
wayne
This route consisted of yellow then to orange until 2001 then back to yellow in 2001
(What is it with you and the Q anyways? :-|)
-Chris
IIRC,
Culver, pre Christie St
Brighton Exp untill bridge work
West End-current config
Sea Beach-GOs
-Chris
this train makes this sound IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
Also, IIRC, the newer MARTA Breda cars make a similar sound as do the Millenium cars of NYCT.
Good work Mr. Trebek.
-Chris
This route runs to Flushing.
-Chris
-Chris
-Chris
It's the station that this train is entering.
Now for $1,000:
It's the contract number for the second car of the train pictured below.
NOTE: This thread is just for fun. No prizes (cash or otherwise) are awarded.
these two routes swapped each other in the 1960's and ran as the brooklyn IRT
this train was has a nickname as the HIPPO
this train was known as the train to the plane in the 60's to 90's
-Chris
A. What is this local station?
B. What is the express train at this station (that makes all stops the rest of the way northbound in the borough)?
C. What is the local train at this station (that proceeds to go express the rest of the way northbound in the borough).
In case you're looking for more subway trivia, feel free to look at my other two posts in this thread
Or if skip-stop counts as express, 86th Street, 2/3 express vs. 1/9 local. (But I don’t think it does.)
You board a train and claim the front window. To your left, you see a train of a different route—call it X—traveling in the same direction as yours. A few minutes later, you see another X train in the same direction on the right. The third one is on the left. After that, you don’t see any more X trains, but you hear them pass above you on three distinct occasions.
What is X and when did it stop working?
This lasted only until '68.
I am on a B. First I see a Q leave its terminal on my left; then I pass it on my express run; then I see one on the bridge; then I pass under three more in Manhattan.
Guess there's more than one way to skin a cat...
Dukakis: Kerry will fund modern rail network
BOSTON -- "John Kerry will be the best railroad president this country
ever had," said former Massachusetts governor and Amtrak board
member Michael Dukakis in a speech to some 600 UTU members at a
UTU regional meeting here July 7.
Kerry served as lieutenant governor when Dukakis was governor. "John
Kerry understood first hand the importance of having a first class,
modern national railroad network," Dukakis said.
Dukakis said Kerry's running mate, John Edwards, would similarly be a
friend of passenger and freight railroads. "The first time I met John
Edwards, he said to me, 'you don't have to lobby me about Amtrak.
I'm with you.'"
"But we are not going to elect the Kerry-Edwards ticket unless each of
us works precinct-by-precinct and block-by-block, knocking on doors
and chatting with neighbors and friends," Dukakis said.
Dukakis said he is "embarrassed" as an American that in most major
cities, "people go nuts" in rush-hour traffic, but for only a eight cents
out of every dollar spent on highways we could have an integrated rail
passenger network to rival anything in the world. "This is not an
airline-versus-highways-versus-railroad debate," Dukakis said. "This is
about America having a first-class transportation system. Moderate
but consistent spending" on rail projects would deliver such a system,
which would include modernization of Amtrak and construction of
high-speed rail corridors.
"This will never occur unless the President of the United States
believes in railroads," Dukakis said. "John Kerry believes in railroads."
He attacked the Bush administration as wanting to kill off publicly
owned Amtrak while spending "half a billion dollars rehabilitating"
Iraq's government owned railroads.
"The time has come to put public money into railroads, including
freight railroad rights-of-way," Dukakis said. Railroads should not be
treated differently than aviation and highways.
Meanwhile, the other guys:
http://www.narprail.org/r99.htm
http://www.heritage.org/Research/UrbanIssues/BG1263.cfm
http://www.heritage.org/Research/Regulation/BG1179.cfm
Seems pretty straightforward to me ... and I won't clutter with the budget requests from 1993 onward. Clinton tried to fund Amtrak and other rail, the Newties trashed both at each and every step.
You wanty rail safety, mandate cab signals / ATC on everything. The regularly occurring collisions and rear enders will be a thing for the history books.
Anyway, is this 'pro rail' stance like Clinton's? i.e., he's pro rail, but some of the biggest cuts to Amtrak happened when he was in office?
Mandate? Hope you don't mean mandate but not fund such as occurred back in 1950 when the ICC mandated that railroads had to pay for their own signal improvements if they wanted to run trains faster than 79 mph . . .
RRs who listened, like the PRR, got the message, and didn't drop speeds in the 50's. In fact, the PRR has cab signalling in the teens, and ATC was an easy modification of the existing system, which was why it was doubly pathetic the LIRR had to be dragged kicking and screaming into it - they already had 90% of the equipmenmt needed installed.
And yes, mandate. Why should the feds pay for it? The EPA doesn't pay for your car's catalytic converter, and never did. NHTSA doesn't pay for the airbags or seat belts. The FAA doesn't pay for collision avoidance systems. The NRC didn't pay for the numerous changes to nuclear plants after Three Mile Island.
BTW, the president dosen't draft the budget, congress does and we all know who was controling congress during those years.
In response to the post before yours, how does one explain the GOP controlled congress getting completely fed up to the point where they are actually being vocal to the press about their dislike about GWB(along with every non-brainwashed person)? How does one explain trimming an almost 400billion(how much we spend for iraq and afghan) to 218 billion transportation bill else the pres will veto it and the GOP controlled congress is still fighting it. How does one explain how amtrack approitations starts out at like 1.6billion or whatever, and they have to fight again with the prez who wants it at 800 million, and the GOP controlled congress has to fight that too.
You do realize there's only one person in this country who cares about increasing the gas tax. America doesn't care about 8 pennies per gallon if it means they can actually get home, or get around and eat. Who wants to take forever to get home?? What person who waits until the last minute to go to work wants to strech out that commute?
I spend TWICE as much money per gallon of gas. When heir prez was elected I paid 90 something cents. now I pay 1.80-2 bucks. That's a 90 cent increase, and this bastard is holding us hostage for EIGHT cents? Actually, i can mess up the numbers real good, because tere was a week where i paid 69 cents per gallon. If it's 69 cents per gallon where I am, than the cheapest state in the nation, Georgia must;ve been between 45 and 55 cents per gallon. Can you imagine? 2000-2001 with prices like that?? ANd this schmoo is arguing over 8 cents???????
You can fool most of the people some of the time, you can fool some of the people all the time, so i guess if you add those two groups together that's a lot. And that is what's going on here.
-----------
Plus in response to the GOP not getting any of kerry's stuff through. It doesn't matter. Thanks to this admin, the executive branch has the most power ever, including the Veep. That might carry on to the next term if they dont' bring Ken Starr back.
Even if i didn't follow anything whatsoever, I would start to wonder why there's so many people with that method of thinking and then think twice to what's going on.
I completely, and 200% agree with this line.
* Dukakis said he is "embarrassed" as an American that in most major
cities, "people go nuts" in rush-hour traffic, but for only a eight cents
out of every dollar spent on highways we could have an integrated rail
passenger network to rival anything in the world. "This is not an
airline-versus-highways-versus-railroad debate," Dukakis said. "This is
about America having a first-class transportation system. Moderate
but consistent spending" on rail projects would deliver such a system,
which would include modernization of Amtrak and construction of
high-speed rail corridors.*
There is no reason why most of our citizens have second class infrastructure and are put in harms way daily. A poor infrastructure leads to a poor economy and country.
So, I guess if I only know one issue or one opinion about a person, at least it's something that actually effects 90% of the population. You can say that about schools. Now if only kerry was in the GOP we could get a catchy slogan for this program.
Convention puts kink in NJ Transit rail lines
NEWARK, N.J. -- Transportation officials said yesterday (July 7) that
thousands of riders on NJ Transit's Midtown Direct rail lines will be
diverted to Hoboken during the Republican National Convention to
ease the congestion and massive delays expected at New York's
Pennsylvania Station, according to this report by Ron Marsico and Joe
Malinconico published by the Star-Ledger.
Additional PATH trains will run between Hoboken and Manhattan to
accommodate the extra commuters, said Steve Coleman, a
spokesman for the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, which
is working in concert with NJ Transit.
Some 11,000 commuters use Midtown Direct each weekday between 6
and 9 a.m., according to NJ Transit. Another 20,000 who ride on the
Morris & Essex Lines and the Montclair-Boonton Line the rest of the
day also would be affected, officials said.
The goal is simple: Reduce traffic into Penn Station during the
convention, which is being held Aug. 30-Sept. 2 at Madison Square
Garden. Security concerns have led authorities to close six of the
eight exits at Penn Station, as well as a number of surrounding
streets, significantly limiting access to the area.
The Garden is located directly above Penn Station's NJ Transit, Amtrak
and Long Island Railroad lines.
"This is all about reducing the pressure in New York. One of the ways
we can do that is to reroute the Midtown Direct service to Hoboken,"
said Penny Bassett Hackett, an NJ Transit spokeswoman.
Hackett said, however, that the plan has not been completed.
"It is under consideration. And we are working with PATH to
supplement their service. We expect to finalize our plans over the
next several weeks," she said.
Trains on NJ Transit's Northeast Corridor and North Jersey Coast Line
also arrive at Penn Station each day, but officials would not say
whether service on those lines would change.
After arriving in Hoboken, Midtown Direct riders will be able to take
the PATH trains into Manhattan, with stops at Christopher and Hudson
streets and along 6th Avenue at 9th, 14th, 23rd and 33rd streets. The
PATH's 33rd Street station is located one block east of Penn Station's
7th Avenue entrance.
"The plan is being considered," DOT spokesman Joe Fiordaliso said.
"In principle, it looks good, but it doesn't have the sign off on all the
levels right now."
Many rail commuters already have been making alternate plans to
avoid Penn Station during the convention.
"It's probably a pretty good idea as long as Hoboken can handle it,"
said Kathleen Hamm, a Midtown Direct rider from Millburn. "I was
thinking of switching to the Hoboken trains anyway."
Hamm said she was more concerned that plans to close most
entrances and exits to Penn Station would produce ugly overcrowding.
"I can't imagine it not being people gridlock with only two exits open,"
she said.
Jill Pozarek, a Midtown Direct rider who works at Novartis' offices in
Manhattan, said her company is giving its employees who live in New
Jersey the option of working out of the firm's office in East Hanover.
"They'll just find an open spot and work out of there," she said.
Another commuter, Tom Groppe, said he hopes to work from home
during the last week of August.
"I suspected they would be running the trains into Hoboken," Groppe
said. "It wouldn't be an easy commute even if (Penn) station was
open."
The change in the train routes shouldn't shake commuters too much,
especially considering that Midtown Direct did not start operation until
the mid-1990s, said Doug Bowen, president of the New Jersey
Association of Railroad Passengers.
Before 1996, trains on the Morris & Essex Lines only went to Hoboken.
In 1996, certain trains along those lines began going directly to
Manhattan, with the rest going to Hoboken. The Montclair-Boonton
Line got service to Penn Station in 2002, with some trains still
running to Hoboken on that line.
"I think a lot of the Morris and Essex veterans will return to their
pre-1996 patterns," which meant transferring in Hoboken, Bowen said.
"Even now, there are people who actually split the ride. They come in
during the morning on Midtown Direct and go out at night through
Hoboken.
"That's part of the reason the Morris and Essex line is so beautiful,
it's positive redundancy," Bowen said, referring to the various travel
options available to commuters on those trains.
Once they arrive in Hoboken, commuters can also board ferries to
Manhattan. Officials said there would be additional ferry service to
take the pressure off the rails.
"NY Waterway is working with NJ Transit to address commuter needs
during the Republican Convention next month and will have added
ferry capacity wherever it is needed," said Arthur Imperatore Jr.,
president of NY Waterway.
(The preceding report by Ron Marsico and Joe Malinconico was
published by the Star-Ledger on Thursday, July 8, 2004.)
Lo-VT's: 4902, 4913, 4934, 4942, 4946, 4950, 5303, 5312, 5323, 5330, 5335, 5337, 5340, 5353, 5354, 5356, and 5390.
Steinway Motors: 5628, 5631, 5633, 5636, 5638, 5641, 5647, 5649, 5650, and 5651.
Not all of the above lasted until the end (11/69). One by one the old cars retired and it was necessary to assign the Museum Lo-VM's (5290, 5292, 5443, 5466, and 5483) to the el from the spring of 1968 to the autumn of 1969.
Larry, RedbirdR33
I *had* to have ridden with you often - I was TA meat myself when I was living there, across the street from Honig's Parkway. But by the time it was lights out for the line, I was out of the TA. If you were there though in 1970/1971, then I was in full TA regalia when I rode home on the line. Wonder if we've met before.
I was there when you were, no longer in TA tin, but still rode it right up to the end as one of the FEW "regulars." I got unauthorized HANDLE time on the LoV's back in the late 60's before those miserable piles of R contract thingies replaced my "preecious." Heh.
SO ... did ya do the museum cars and "step up like a MAN" or did you get to do it with them wimpy R car hosers? Inquiring wiseasses need to no. (grin)
If the nostalgia bug ever hits, there's still handle time on 1689 at Branford. After 30 years away from motors, it was quite the thrill lapping it again.
Bob: I was on that trip. I took my first train ride ever on the 3 Avenue El and felt that I had to be there for the last one. Thank you for the kind words.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Chris: I didn't post the WF car numbers because with only two exceptions all of them were assigned to the 3 Avenue EL.
The two exceptions were 5660 renumbered V-286 and 5689 renumbered V-287 which served as motors for the Vacuum Cleaner Train.
Larry, RedbirdR33
wayne
The location of this photo given was Kings Highway...
When in fact, it is 18th Avenue. The buildings to the right, and the steelwork underneath the switch that was taken out gave it away.
Just thought I'd point it out.
Thank you
Mark De Loatch
-Chris(transitpics.com-COMING SOON!)
For the same reason straight train nuts post on SubTalk.
Mark is a bus nut, too.
Duh!
umm, this is SUBtalk.
Peace,
ANDEE
His handle is Mdlbigcat.
Peace,
ANDEE
Rolling On The Floor Laughing My Fat A-- Off?
:-)
wayne
Peace,
ANDEE
In response to my article I posted that you got this from. Don't you think it would be prudent to train those dudes who PRETEND to be power or gas people when they try to rob you? Maybe they might find something!
BTW, I forgot about the pest people. They come in my apt. periodically, not to mention the state-mandated inspection every year or so.
Usually when they do this, I cut my PC off, so they won't get curious. Don't want them to see my goodies.
Now to take my WMD [my cheap-assed camera, it's SOOO 20th Century, still have to take the film to CVS to be developed, not the snazzy 21st Century digitals], and take some train pictures. Ciao!
Step back from the computer, take a breather.
I think I hear the big black helicopters now...
Turns out that this train is running Blue line on a route that is normally Orange. Signed as Blue on the end doors and all the flip-dots, and also announced as "Blue Line to Franconia-Springfield". At Landover, I talked to the station manager about it, and she called Central Control to find out. Turns out that this train was a put-in from New Carrollton, to run normal Blue Line service. This was also the only train like this, it turns out. Weird. But understandable.
Meanwhile, there was a nasty little storm that came in a few minutes after I arrived at New Carrollton, where I was using the Amtrak station to break for a few minutes before heading back downtown. This storm was fierce, with wind, heavy rain, and lots of loud thunder and bright lightning. I always say that when the lightning looks like a flashbulb going off right over your head, it's serious. Even knocked out the power to the Amtrak station, causing their generators to come on. I don't know what happened at the New Carrollton Metro station, as I stayed in the Amtrak station where it was safe and dry compared to the more open Metro station until the storm passed.
And I also saw a Breda-Breda-Rohr-Rohr-CAF-CAF consist on the Rosslyn lower level, running as a Blue Line train. I got a photo of this train leaving the station from the upper level, and you can see its mixed-ness by looking at the roofs.
You can tell the difference by looking at the roofs - Bredas have the corrugated roof with areas that look like patches at the ends of the cars, Rohrs have the plain roof, and CAFs have the corrugated roof without the patches. Plus, of course, I marked it. And you can see the light reflecting from the CAF head-sign LED at the bottom of the picture.
And otherwise, Metro didn't do that hot of a job cleaning up from their special service pattern this year, as Federal Triangle and Federal Center SW both still had July 4 banners hung up at the entrances advertising the Orange Line to both New Carrollton AND Addison Road. There was also a July 4 map on a windscreen at Deanwood.
Also, something that the aforementioned Landover station manager told me was about confused customers waiting at Federal Triangle waiting more than 40 minutes for their Blue Line train that was never going to come. Makes me wonder about whether to avoid confusion downtown, to change the July 4 service pattern to run both Blue and Orange Line trains downtown, sending them to their normal eastbound terminals, and then send the Blue and Orange Lines both to Vienna. Accomplishes the same end in sending more trains to Vienna, but eliminates some confusion downtown, I'd think. Then change the existing Blue on the map to a "SPECIAL" running from Huntington to Rosslyn upper level.
Anyway, your thoughts?
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Mark
Robert
Robert
8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Robert
til next time
til next time
til next time
(ducks)
As fond as I am of the R-1/9s, I have no doubt the Triplexes would have become a favorite as well, had I ever ridden on them.
til next time
til next time
what's the reason behind the oddly-shaped roof?
THAT's what a subway car is supposed to look like - AFAIAC today's roofs are oddly shaped ;-)
The roof also contained vents which helped improve air circulation and provided a space for the ceiling fans...
#3 West End Jeff
wayne
wayne
wayne
I think you meant a Steeplecab :)
I did see the D-types reposing in the sunshine at CI Yard on Wednesday. Maybe they're next to be overhauled for the subway centennial celebration.
--Mark
So sorry if I got any one hiped up about this.
Robert
til next time
Robert
http://www.news-medical.net/print_article.asp?print=yes&id=3185
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/09/arts/09REVE.html
Lock a mime and a clown in a room and lock the door.
See who comes out when you unlock the door.
Your pal,
Shakes
Besides, mimes have a French connotation thanks to Marcel Marceau and putting them anywhere in NYC would decrease civility.
The article may have been about an experience in Columbia, but my take on it was related to transit.
People holding doors, people leaning over platforms or acting disrespectfully to others on mass transit is a major problem. Conductors yelling at door holders or signs warning about leaning over aren't always successful. Perhaps a few strategically placed mimes, without saying a word, could humorously remind people to be more considerate of themselves and others.
I've found an inexpensive hotel (the Belnord) near The Museum of Natural History and therefore near to the 86th St. Station on the B and D (?). Assuming we fly into JFK (could be Newark - we don't know yet), which is the best way there? Take the E from Jamaica or the A from Howard Beach (obviously changing to the C at the most convenient downtown location)?
BTW would be nice to meet a couple of you guys whilst there, although the chap I'm coming with is not a railfan, so no possibility of really long excursions.
Mark.
(Thanks in advance for your advice)
Peace,
ANDEE
Mark.
;-)
The important thing is to ENJOY!
Peace,
ANDEE
But it will be worth it to see Airtrain and Jamaica Station, which I have not visited before - plus I get to ride the E at its far end (another first for me).
So YES I WILL enjoy it - nothing can spoil a trip to NY for me, because it is one of my favourite places on earth.
BTW this time I will also visit the deep-level stations on the 1/9 and the A - I didn't even know about these unusual places until I visited this site.
Thanks again for your input.
Mark.
:-)
Will definitely visit the new station at Coney Island too - you'd be a fool to miss it!
;-)
The A train method is a bit complex. There's an A train going to Lefferts Blvd. which doesn't connect to the Airtrain (though looking at the maps, it appears that if they build an extended passageway to connect to the Airtrain station, there won't be a problem, but I have never rode on the Airtrain and haven't seen it working, so I can't say) and there's an A train to Far Rockaway which does goes to the JFK airtrain. E sounds better after all this, right? :)
Thanks for replying.
Mark.
:-)
please advise - thank you :)
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Your pal,
Fred
Peace,
ANDEE
That's because I try to only post while sober. My PC has a breatholyzer on it which prevents those messy 'accidents'.
Your pal,
Fred
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
Peace,
ANDEE
Tenmile River
HOWEVER, for historians, that area is FL-9 territory.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
It is located in Dutchess County. I remember there is a mental hospital up there(no joke). Otherwise there is not much reason to go there.
Sounds like they listened to David Gunn's remarks.
story in Daily News
David
Hell, after spending 20 billion to rip everything out the MTA wouldn't need a photo ban.
the only older train i really like is the Slant, and possibly the 62.
R-32.
When I was a motorman, remembering that I at the age of 8 got to RUN an R10 thanks to the father of a friend who worked the A train, I had deep respect for kids who'd come up front while I was doing my thing and would make it a point to let them look into the cab while I did my job. HOWEVER - there were unspoken rules at play when *I* was a kid, as well as when I operated. DO NOT be "noticed" ... running a train IS a task. Leave me alone, and I'll let you watch. Get in MY FACE, SLAM! My job was to get the geese there alive. Anything that distracts me from doing that, mmmmmbye. ANYTHING. But STILL, I knew there were kids there, I was one myself and I was respectful that there was a job to be done. Befriended me MANY a motorman before the MTA came who'd not only let me WATCH, but actually "here's how to do it - now HOLD it down and DON'T let that rise up, but sure - go ahead and pull it" ... and NO, no "ghey episodes" here - they were craftspeople who ENJOYED interest, and it was the 50's, CHILDREN were sacred unless proven otherwise. :)
If there was a bag blocking the view, there's two possibilities here - either you were dealing with somebody who got burned by a railfan and wants no part of "tattling" or you had somebody that you annoyed. The old cabs could be CLOSED - byebye, have a nice day, I can't SEE you ... transverses have a tendency of "over the shoulder monitoring by strangers" ... some operators just don't want to be distracted by it. Therefore, they'll "block it off" in case "kids" don't get the hint to be cool. Someone else might have honked them off "up the road" before YOU got on ...
But if there's a newspaper on the window, or an obstruction, just deal with it being "I don't want no trouble" ... WORK for the TA sometime, UNDERSTAND WHY. :(
As I've admitted before though, I found out in short order that I really wasn't suited for the gig. I was OK as a conductor, but found it difficult to keep with it when I moved to motors. And I did find the kids kicking on the door annoying to say the least. Even had a few trying to work the clamp off as well. And while I agree with you, I also understand why some say, "enough of this shirt" and shut down the sideshow. :(
You're right though if it's a rule. There were many days pounding the road when I cursed the rule of "slam it or clamp it, if we catch it open, you're out of service."
The residents didn't want it anyway...
Regardless of that,there should have been some way for the TA to bring this line about.
A subway along Steinway st,an extention from Roosevelt Ave station..something....
I'm just a kid, 55 years of age ... I've been alive when Joe McCarthy peddled his fine neo-conservative sausage to a nation of clueless TV viewers until FINALLY Joseph Welch, an attorney from the Boston firm of Hale and Dorr made his famous quote that caused the tide to FINALLY turn against this witch-hunt and the turning of Americans on one another for no valid reason, "I meant to do you no personal injury and if I did, I beg your pardon. Let us not assassinate this lad further, Senator. You've done enough. Have you no sense of decency, sir? At long last, have you left no sense of decency?" I think it applies to some of the character assasination many have done to others, and the shouting down of dissenting opinions expressed here and everywhere else by people who question the validity of America being misguided for political opportunity among those in leadership UNWORTHY of their elected office.
We no longer "discuss," we shout DOWN, we harrass, we harangue one another, just like 1953. We even JOIN the "mob mentality" and THREATEN others. Are SOME Americans less worthy than the rest? Does anyone remember Lincoln's speeches? Or those of other WORTHY statesmen and LEADERS? *NO* ... a TRUE leader would provide INFORMATION and engage in DISCUSSION and CONSENSUS, and by pure power of GUIDANCE lead us into a discussion of what we all can agree on and come together in a common cause as a united nation. As AMERICANS. ALL of us. :(
Instead, we have neocons who control everything from our news, to our entertainment to everything we see, hear and feel. They throw up their "Liberal media" boogeymen when we question the truth of what we're being peddled. Fact is, "liberals" were the creation of the REPUBLICAN party in post-war times - the Percy's, the Rockefellers, and many others who allowed "study groups" and "think-tanks" to decide what was best for us. How IRONIC that the republicans who were once "liberals" shake this boogeyman in our face, claiming that the DEMOCRATS invented "liberalism" ... :-\
And we're FALLING for this episode of doublespeak, hook, line and SINKER.
What is "terrorism?" Webster’s Dictionary defines terrorism as "the use of force or threats to demoralize, intimidate, and subjugate, especially such use as political weapon or policy." So who precisely ARE the "terrorists?" *BUSH!* NOT Al Qaeda, NOT railfans, NOT even LIBERALS! The "terrorists" are our VERY own government, the right wing who plays up this nonsense and turns us upon one another, and the IDIOTS who are stupid enough to LISTEN to the nonsense which they are being spoonfed as surely as old Senator Joe dispensed it during the "Red Scare."
WHY did September 11th happen? Because our intelligence and national security agencies were underfunded and uncoordinated. And this was caused by WHO? Why the VERY neocon CONGRESS who defunded them in the first place, and incompetence among MANY administrations over a period of time. PLAIN AND SIMPLE, GOVERNMENT screwed the pooch. Who gets to PAY for this? Not THEM, they get RE-ELECTED! :(
So when "terrorism" hits home, do they get OSAMA? Nope. Do they bring down the House of Saud? Nope. Do they make Newt Gingrich or Dick Cheney or Donald Rumsfeld (who CREATED OSAMA) do the perp walk? NOPE. They clamp down on *YOU* ... take your sneakers off and relax your anal muscles, we need to check up there ... Yep, they came after *YOU* when we will all see with the release of the 9/11 Commission report that GOVERNMENT screwed up, but we're taking America hostage instead.
So for those of you who pour hatred upon fellow subtalkers, or cower in fear of terrorism, bear in mind who the *REAL* terrorists are - it's NOT Al Qaeda, it's the arseholes who issue alerts to CNN but NOT the police, it's the arseholes who stand in front of the cameras insisting that if we just round up those pesky railfans and kill Amtrak, we'll ALL be safe.
The people who DO the terrorism are up for election in November. Stop beating up on one another and hold the REAL terrorists accountable for a change, not each other. READ the 9/11 Commission report when it's released - SEE Fahrenheit 9/11 and ignore Michael Moore's commentary - soak in the DOCUMENTS instead ... and for krimminy's sake, stop whining about who works and who lives off the dole - it's your OWN leaders who are the REAL terrorists, and they EXPECT you to chit your pants instead of notice what's REALLY going on here - it was bad enough that America suffered a coup d'etat in 2000 ... and even worse when the very same party that STAGED and WON the coup d'etat sat on their asses while the planes hit the WTC ...
I have to agree with many here (and NOBODY who has actually READ my comments over the years can pin the "L word" on ME - I'm a GOLDWATER republican, cast out by Pat Robertson for not being CRAZY enough) ... we *ARE* in a "police state" ... we *ARE* being USED by an administration that has NOTHING to sell us but FEAR ... and we're SO overwhelmed by the programming of a corrupted media that we actually BELIEVE this nonsense ... every bit as much as German citizens BELIEVEED what Goehring was peddling in the 1930's. God HELP America if we don't wake up.
Just say NO to terrorism, throw the terrorists OUT of office in November and TAKE AMERICA BACK before it's too late. Or do we want to learn something ELSE from Germany in the 1930's and their coup d'etat by Hitler? Do we want to see America go the way of Dresden at the hands of the REST of the world? How in heaven's NAME did we ever survive the cold war? THINK! :(
It's not too late to stop the madness and self-emolation. But time is running out. The ONLY ones that seem to "hate America" are our very own leaders - without their nonsense, we would ALL be Americans again, and could do FAR better than we are now, cowering and dumping in our own pants. :(
Our somewhat sinister current administration did not plan, help, or carry out the September 11th attacks and we would not put up with it if they had.
To say that Bush, etc. are "the real terrorists" is to deflect attention from much more dangerous, much more violent, much less approval-rated individuals out there.
Osama Bin Laden's not getting voted out of power this year or in 2008. Valid angry criticism is one thing, and I'm whole-heartedly with you. Rhetoric that blurs very important moral distinctions is another.
And when you say "neo-cons", that better not be a code-word for some other group.
-West End Scott
PS: This is off topic. I apologize.
*THAT* is what these creeps are going for. And while I won't SIDE with the "conspiracy theories" there are many MILITARY PEOPLE who quit, including advisors to the Shrub and Joint Chiefs of Staff who resigned over 9/11 ... and many of them have whispered "INSIDE JOB!" but I won't go there. Suffice it to say that in all I stated, THIS regime has got to go. When the 9/11 Commission report comes out, it will be DAMNING as to the underfunding, undersupervision and most of all, the LACK of an "internet" for them all to share files and screens. It's *ALL* about UNDERFUNDING and its morbid result. All for TAX CUTS that hurt where it mattered ... but the "Commission" doesn't SAY "tax cuts," that's a "read between the lines" as a BASIS for the "underfunding" ... you'll see.
AGGGH. And while our porkers lavish MORE upon themselves for the CHITTY job *they* did, they take away *OUR* rights and *NOT* fix the problem THEY caused. :(
That's actually not true - as indicated in another subthread of this one, and prominently mentioned in the upcoming 9/11 Commission report. And Clinton stopped the terrorist attack that was underway in YOUR neck of the woods before it (never) happened. Given Orange county's political attitude, he should have let it come down like "your boy" did in New York. :(
Sadly, the world is cluttered with SPIN, truth be damned no matter WHERE the truth leads us. And when truth fails in the mission, then shout down ANY dissent or counterbalance and to hell with looking any further - on topic, this is how the MTA gets away with THEIR political "spin" ... and to be fair, if AMERICA *ever* got off their over-Atkins'd fat rumps, they'd realize that the REASON WHY New York is *such* a blue state (*OUR* electors ALONE would re-elect Shrub) is because we took a punch in the face for "America" and "America" and the asswipes THEY elected (not US) gave us the "slipped soap" number after WE took 3,000 casualties *FOR NOTHING* ... *NOTHING*. :(
But 1993 never happened, it's just what we're on alert for NOW. After "nukular weapons on America, Bilogicals and ANTHRAX" who could GIVE a qwap in AMERICA if that happened to New York again? Nobody cares, re-elect the smug phuck. :(
(don't mind me, but as if I wasn't already over the top already, Shrub's nonsense Monday morning REALLY put me over the top)
LOL! Truer words were never said!
See? On topic after all.
Railroading and politics are unfortunity highly intertwined. The CEO of CSX is our Treasury Secretary as but one example. But trains are in grave danger, and there's my motivation. You won't see me on bustalk.
Mr Bruno..and some other knuckle head fought like cats and dogs over where the train should run...because of that stupid line of thinking....they get nothing ,now...
well if you concider a BRT bus something... thats what Albany's getting now...
Idiots....
And to think - the Soviet Union is no more - except in AMERICA. :(
What doesn't make sense,is why they have so many little cities running around the Capitol District[with their own little polices force]rather than one municipality[like the five boro's...]
Green Island barely makes up one Brooklyn nab...
it's funny...no really,it is...
It was a question of "the train runs in MY district, not yours." At least if it had been done in the FIRST district, it would have served PEOPLE. In the latter, it would have been pure pork. What's SAD is that those along the congested Oliver Northway would actually EMBRACE a train - and while ridership wouldn't have risen to NJT/LIRR levels, it would have been worth it. Not so for the alternative.
But now we've got NOTHING, but the taxpayers paid for the (non-existent) railroad ANYWAY - the money went to tax abatements for Wal*Fart ... and of course, Unca Joey's limp p*nis on the Hudson that's already collapsing from structural failures of the parking lots and foundation. Not to mention that zany low bid clock. Yep, Joey's monument was worth it for sure. :(
We COULD have had a train. Instead, we have monuments. And of course, no budget.
Would that we had engineers instead of lawyers in our government.
Here’s an idea for you: term limits <10 years and no-one who has been a member of a bar (any state) in the past 10 years is eligible to stand for public office.
Unfortunately I don’t have too many hopes because anyone who is remotely competent has some skeletons in the closet and probably doesn’t want them aired on CNN or Fox.
Bush inherited the problem, he didn't create it.
And if I want to hear your left-wing drivel, I'll go see Fahrenheit 9/11.
WHO created Al Qaeda? Who DIDN'T "neutralize" them when they were no longer of use? But as to the allegations, voila:
http://www.cnn.com/US/9607/30/clinton.terrorism/
http://www.snopes.com/rumors/clinton.htm
But hey ... no problem, call me a leftie - I'd rather be called a member of the "left wing" than the "wrong wing" ... and as Dick Cheney said to Senator Leahy ... well ... you know. :)
Oh yeah ... I should shout you down, but as far as I'm concerned, you're STILL an American ... misguided by the spindoctors perhaps, but I don't want to see you hauled off to the gulag. no, really. :)
You've done well ,Shrub....
keep up the good work....
You sure we're not related?
Propaganda's running wild,the geese soakin it up like candy...
brainwashing the masses....
Well done,Shrub....well done....
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
But I wasn't talking "bias," I was talking INCOMPETENCE. :(
World Service is better than the BBC News for Britons for an international perspective. Not surprisingly, the BBC Radio 4 News has more Britain/Europe bias in news selection.
I would also recommend the World Service version of From Our Own Correspondent. The BBC correspondents around the world record some background pieces which complement the news.
Oh, and just to show it has everything, BBC has the World’s Longest Running Soap Opera as well!
Guiding Light premiered in 1937 and that's on CBS, so HA!
Anyway, BBC does have the longest running non-daytime TV series.
As for Guiding Light, it’s a hybrid. Radio from 1957, TV from 1952. The Archers was BBC National Radio from 1951. Still with the same signature tune–that, like it or loathe it, has been drummed into 50 million British brains since.
I leave it to the current Brits to comment on The Archers. I stopped listening when Doris died.
The Daleks: conquer the universe, provided it doesn’t have stairs!
Also, the BBC, to save costs, would routinely reuse videotape. No-one knows how many episodes of classic series were just wiped away.
However, I’m sure you would like to read it. The style is breathless, in-your-face sarcasm which should appeal to your sardonic wit!
Yes, we could have been more prepared, but the fact is, they still attacked us.
The 9/11 Commission will probably be the final word, but here's some from Bill O'Reilly on FOX to tide us over until then ...
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,123409,00.html
For me, it's not about partisanship - I'm currently "unenrolled," one of those "undecideds" out there. When it comes to BUSH though, I've made up my mind. About all I can offer is that I'm VERY unhappy about the alternatives but at this point, I'd put a Studebaker in the White House - anything but this moron. :(
But to clarify my original argument, primarially blaming the US (assuming the didn't ignore intellegence, etc.) for the attacks is like saying that a rape victim is responsible for her being attacked. Yeah, some things she wears or places she goes could increase her chances of being attacked, but in the end, is it her fault?
Last I checked though, that was not the case. :)
Bottom line though, check my other posts - I GENUINELY don't want to pollute any further database space - what I've said is there, contains links, and CAN be checked out. The TESTIMONY before ALL Commissions is public record ... just needs some digging. The "owned media" won't and everybody's settled into "I vote for THIS guy and to HELL with the facts" (one way or another). Bottom line is more people are reviled by Shrub than like him, so Kerry wins. My disappointment is merely that Bush is STILL a viable candidate at all. Then again, people are sheep. They're not INTERESTED in truth. That's how we GOT here in the first place. :(
http://www.AttackOnAmerica.net/ignorad.htm
It IS curious though that those who COULD have stopped it all walked out of the room and became unavailable AFTER the first plane hit. :(
But *my* point on "Say no to terrorism" was a hope that we'd stop being so damned abusive to one another and in particular that we'd come to realize that officials constantly waving the flag of terrorism in our faces without providing information to local law enforcement was a political crime of the highest treason. For OUR officials to be doing the WORK of the terrorists by terrorizing US for no good reason, without any valid information or facts is TREASON.
But I'll leave it there ...
The New York Post capsule review of "Fahrenheit 9/11" advises viewers to go beyond seeing the film, to obtain and read the documents that it shows.
How would you compare getting to the bottom (truth) of 9/11, to, say, that of Contra Gate of the Reagan administration, or the Kennedy assassinations ?
"THIS ain't the place to go into it", because this "ain't" "World Politics Talk", yet, this thread keeps growing, and has not yet been deleted by our webmaster. Ditto, "Sex in the CT".
'And as to 9/11, a LOT of military people believe that it was an "inside job."' : Hmmm ... I may e-mail you privately on this.
I choose Roosevelt Blvd in Philly.
Why?
Because on the occasions I take the 14 bus up the Blvd, I always see at least 5 remains of cars that get wrecked on that road. Also I always see the news reports of some poor soul that gets hit by a speeding car on that road, yeah on the TV stations down here, if it bleeds, it leads.
Roosevelt Blvd is semi-suburban, so it lends to more higher speeds, and more chances of people [especially pedestrians] getting killed because the road is 300 feet wide in some parts. On the upper part, it is about 150 feet wide without the grassy medians. And last but not least, the NE has a huige elderly population, a lot of targets for agressive drivers.
Oh no, I think a lot more people have died on Queens Blvd than on grand Concourse. At every crosswalk there are always so many poles that have flowers all over them. More than Grand Concourse. But I'm almost positive Queens Blvd has killed more.
-Broadway Buffer
The Boulevard in philly is one of the best roads in my opinions. It has one major problem. It's in Philly/PA. They can't operate a road at all. If another state had the power it would work. The lights and signs and such are messed up. I can't fathom any other city on this earth who would treat the left turns like they do so all the cars line up in front of each other. It should ALL be controlled like the roads i drive on.
ANd the new ITS lights wouldn't hurt. Philly is such a joke on it's handling of that road.
Didn't Michael Moore make a point about violence being big on the news in the USA and contributing to an air of fear and a sense that violence is reality in Bowling for Columbine ? Now they're sayin' it's okay to massacre folks by speeding down boulevards, simply because it's what happens all the time and nobody in power cares about it. Hmmm.
...43,000 dead each year. Can you imagine the response if terrorists were killing that many of us in a year? The difference is that this killer is profitable.
Mark
http://www.rncnotwelcome.org/merch.html
Culverexpress
What would have changed along the line between 1955 and today? What cars would be used in 2004? The R-62's? Maybe another rehabbed version of the Redbirds?
The stations on the line would have been rehabbed and maybe the structure strengthened to support the heavier cars used after the el cars were scrapped. I imagine that the same changes made to the Chicago els would have appeared in New York.
Any ideas?
The R-39s were intended for the Myrtle and for the Third Avenue (Bronx) Line. These would still be in service today.
Elias
What were the ridership statistics for the two lines at the end? I remember that the Third Avenue el had some rush hour traffic on the lower end (Tremont Avenue to 149th Street), but otherwise was quite lightly used.
The R39 never got beyond the concept stage. Their looks are purely speculative. They would have had to be different from current rolling stock because they had to be lighter in weight. Aluminum?
They probably would have made them lighter weight by using lighter trucks. About half of the weight of an R-36 car is in the trucks; using ligher-weight trucks would make the cars considerably lighter.
-- Ed Sachs
David
Regards,
Jimmy
The best of the MUDC's would have been continued in use until about 1959. Needing a lightweight fleet, the NYCT might have bought cars similar to the Cleveland Rapid fleet. Based on off-the-shelf PCC technology, but still with a somewhat "traditional" appearence. Since the fleet would be restriced to 3Av and maybe Myrtle, it wouldn't have to conform to the "New York Subway" type.
-- Ed Sachs
Michael
Second, what if ALL FOUR Manhattan els (Second, Third, Sixth, Ninth Avenues) were still running, what would NYC subways be like now ? Any ideas ?
The same can be said about the B49/B68 and the Brighton Line, you can take the Q train in one direction between Prospect Park to Brighton Beach and take a bus back in the opposite direction, a walk that is 10 minutes at most. The B68 is easily accessed from Church Ave to Brighton Beach and the B49 from Prospect Park to Sheepshead Bay.
No one on the train was injured, he said.
The westbound Metrolink Train No. 303, headed from San Bernardino to downtown Los Angeles, was delayed for about three hours during the investigation, Metrolink spokesman Francisco Oaxaca said.
The train moved into the Covina station at about 8:20 a.m., where the passengers were taken by bus to complete their journey.
He didn't have a passenger count, but Oaxaca said the train generally has 400 to 500 riders prior to entering the Covina station.
Another Covina teen committed suicide last year on the tracks. Joshua Bateman, 15, stood in the path of a westbound Metrolink train Feb. 5, 2003, near Banna and Cypress avenues, near his school.
The Charter Oak High School sophomore was reportedly distraught about his mother's recent suicide.
Metrolink has about three to five fatalities per year, Oaxaca said, many involving people trying to drive around warning gates at grade crossings.
"This occurs periodically, these almost unavoidable tragedies,' he said.
The tracks in Covina reopened at 9:25 a.m., but No. 303 and other trains were further delayed because of a suspicious package found at the Baldwin Park Metrolink station.
Baldwin Park police received a call at about 8 a.m. from security about a black bag left on a bench in the northeast portion of the station, Lt. Lili Hadsell said.
Officers responded along with the Los Angeles County bomb squad, who moved the bag across the street and X-rayed it. The bag had a plastic food container inside, Hadsell said.
The station was shut down while the bomb squad removed the bag, she said.
The bag was found by security officer Carmen Martinez. Another suspicious package was found at the station about three weeks ago, Martinez said, but it turned out to be Chinese food.
Normal train operations resumed at about 11 a.m., Oaxaca said
Thanks,
-Tom
They still do the job and are cool and comfortable even with the noise.
Get this last chance to see them.
me sitting next to joe testagrose.
an R40 W train at city hall LL.
a view of the dark tunnel ahead of city hall.
R33ML#9017 at rockaway pk.
he also emailed me some bus pictures from up in canada,i'll post those up on bus talk in a bit.
til next time
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
til next time
Thanks for opinions.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
R142As have flusher surfaces than the R142s.
Kawasaki is better than Bombardier.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
: )
The (4) WoodlawnBowlingGreen
BTW: Has Kawasaki ever made any cars for the TTC?
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
til next time
til next time
But if you put a gun to my head, I will say Kawsaki R142A. Nothing beats Japanese engineering/build quality.
By the way, didn't you start a thread on this same topic awhile back?
til next time
By the way, didn't you start a thread on this same topic awhile back?
Yes. But this time, I'm taking off a car (R143) to see this time who likes what better between just two of the new trains. When the R160s come in next year, I'll do R142 vs. R142A vs. R143 vs. R160, then R143 vs. R160.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
For me, R-142 > R-142A. The loud roar of the HVAC on the R-142 is unsurpassed.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
R-32.
Peace,
ANDEE
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.
Oh, wait
I was a fan of Thomas the Tank Engine when I was a baby. :-)
What about you?
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
til next time
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Assuming you're referring to the latter, I loved Thomas the Tank Engine. You had those mean, 'ole Diesels. :) My parents always got me train sets, not Lionel, but those cheap 20 to 40 buck ones. They weren't bad, though (Does anyone know who makes these?). Of course, being the wild and dumb toddler I was, I wasted no time busting them up... Stupid me.
I certainly remember riding the J and consequently the 7. I was also able to recognize the difference between 'E' (B division) and '7' (A division) equipment and always wondered why the 7 trains were smaller...
2. Watching the Lionel Trains TV specials that ran around Xmas time.
3. Riding the 3rd Ave. El and the White Plains Rd lines into the City with my grandfather. He always fell asleep and I got the railfan window! We always waited for a R-12 (maybe a Low-V but I'm not sure) because the windows on the R-17 were too high for me to see out of.
To be honest, I never knew/paid attention to the A/B div. train size. My first ride on a B division train was last year when I took the A to the Transit Museum(except the SIRT)!
One of my memories that I always had is when I would go with my father to work at the 59th floor of the WTC(btw, he's OK, he now works in Westchester). I remember taking the train from Annadale, the ferry and then the train again at 'the station where the metal things came out'(SF)!
-Chris-{Coming soon!transitpics.com!}
Then on Christmas Eve my Dad would set up our Lionel trains and I'd play with them for a week.
I played on and near the tracks from age 5 on.
Also had this old wooden train set that I would build cities around with wooden building blocks, then knock over the buildings with the train.
Mark
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Matt
Regards,
Jimmy
I think my first subway memory was either 1)standing up on the seat looking out the side window of the Flushing Line at Sunnyside Yards or 2)A Nostalgia train trip, where all I can remember that the train (probably a BMT Q-Type) broke down in a yard (CI Yard I think). We had to transfer to a (guessing here) R32 or 38 through the front door of the Nostalgia train, with a piece of carpet thrown between the two trains. This was probably very early 1980's sometime.
Yup, the green locomotive and orange coach with stickers of the McDonald characters. Late 80's had another train toy. Sadly, I only had the Grimace Express being we never went to McDonalds often. And I always tried to win the electric train when the Monopoly game is in session, but never win.
Regards,
Jimmy
When I was a kid, my mother would drag me to a train display in one of the department stores in downtown South Bend, only I wasn't all that impressed. Now she says she's created a monster.:)
All of which led up to July 21, 1965 - a red-letter date in my life for sure. This wide-eyed eight-year-old on his first visit to NYC rode on the subway for the first time that day, and rest is history.
Your pal,
Fred
1. Being 3 years old in 1962 and pestering my grandmother to read electric train catalogs to me. I got my first Lionel set when I was seven.
2. Being 5 years old and riding the old wooden Q cars on the Myrtle Avenue El with my father from Metropolitan Avenue in Queens to Navy Street in Brooklyn. We attended a big ceremony aboard a destroyer at the Brooklyn Navy Yard. My father stood with other men his age on the deck, and cried.
He told me when I was older that that was the day they decommissioned the ship on which he had served in 1945 at Okinawa and Iwo Jima.
3. Being four years old and riding the LIRR Montauk Branch for a weekend at my godmother's summer home in Mastic Beach. The locomotives were awesome.
My dad had to travel from NYC to Chicago to take his medical boards. Because it was January and he was worried about getting there if the weather turned iffy, he booked a seat on the Commodore Vanderbilt. We all went to Grand central: my mom and dad, me (4 years old) and my brother (1 year old).
After dad boarded I dragged my mother and brother up to the front of the train to see the engine. For some reason (and to my delight) it did not have an electric "motor" on the point but two diesels, probably and E-7 and E-9.
I stood on the platform looking up at the engine when the fireman leaned out the window and waved to me; I naturally waved back. The engineer came over to the window and also waved so I waved to him as well. I heard him say something to my mother and the next thing I knew, the fireman lifted me into the cab and placed me in the engineer's seat. The engineer put the horn cord in my hand and told me to pull; I did and had the thrill of my life.
I don't even remember them placing me back on the platform or the ride back to Sty Town via two subways, but I'll never forget that experience.
About 3-4 years ago I took my son who was about 4 on the Brooklyn LIRR line so we could take the subway to the C.I. aquarium and naturally was at the railfan window. There was a female engineer and she asked Arthur if he wanted to hit the whistle. She let him press the whistle just as the train was coming out of the tunnel onto the el at Ralph Avenue. All I could think of was saying "what about me" but in my late 40's I was too embarassed.
By the way, this is why I always let as many kids as possible ring the bell when I'm operating at BERA.
Riding the Broadway Limited from New York to Chicago, and having dinner in the diner.
Electroburgers on the Electroliner en route from Milwaukee back to Chicago to catch the Broadway for the trip home.
Trains crossing the Poughkeepsie railroad bridge.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Your pal,
Fred
- M-2s running along the New Haven Line ROW next to I-95 and asking my father to catch up with them.
- Riding the PA-1/2/3s when they still had the black paint around the windows.
- WTC Path station. :-(
- R-46s on the E flying down Queens Blvd :-)
- R-32 local trains that scared me when the lights went out over third rail gaps
- Arrow IIs and Arrow IIIs on the Morris and Essex lines ROW near I-280 in Harrison.
- hearing the older, uglier, and much noiser LIRR diesel sets passing by
Ah, yes, back when NYC was in the slums in the 1970s and 1980s. Glad that period of time's over. LOL.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
This was one of the books my parents read to me at bedtime. I could barely talk, but repeated "Staying on the rails no matter what!" over and over again. It was one of the books which I read to my children when they were young. And, when my children were about to have kids of their own, we bought them each a copy (yes, It's STILL available in print from amazon.com) to read to the grandchildren.
REAL LIFE:
I can't remember exactly when this happened, but it was surely no later than 1946 when I was 6 years old, possibly a year or two before that. My parents owned no car at the time, and we went to visit the sister of one of the family friends, who lived in E. Rutherford, NJ. We took a "big boat" and then a train... which was headed by a STEAM LOCOMOTIVE. This was regular passenger service, not an excursion train of some kind. I really have no idea as to which railroad it was (not the PRR, of course - maybe CNJ?), or exactly where the station was that we used. But I couldn't wait for the trip home, and thrilled beyond words when, on the way home, we stood at the station while the monster black marvel pulled in.
Was this the last steam passenger service in the NY/NJ area, and can anyone remember such a trip any time later than this? I can state with assurance that by the summer of '47, the NYO&W was running diesels to the Catskill Mountain region.
Shalom from Tel Aviv. Andy.
No, both the CNJ and PRR operated steam in passenger service much later than that, and quite possibly other railroads as well. The CNJ dieselized their remaining passenger service in 1954, with the PRR following in 1957; the last steam passenger train on the New York and Long Branch (today's North Jersey Coast Line of NJT) ran in late October, 1957, three weeks before the final passenger train under steam on the PRR down in southern New Jersey.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The last regularly scheduled PRR passenger train pulled by steam was the Pemberton-to-Camden local on November 12, 1957. It ran into Camden in the morning. The return trip in the afternoon was on a Doodlebug.
Shalom from Tel Aviv. Andy.
Fred, I'll give you chops that the Sea Beach is fast. It's too bad it's in an open cut for the most of the time; that speed could afford some impressive views.
Hell, even when we moved out to Long Island (with woods all around, a large set of commercial chicken coops across the "street", and the hundreds of acres of Central Islip State Hospital a block away, filled with lovely wandering, uh, "nuts", and numerous old buildings, fields of apple trees, straw and blackberries, weird "streams" and cool swamps...simply kid heaven.), even then, my mom would take some of the crowd (five sisters, three brothers) into the city numerous times. Worlds Fair, museaums, hell, even Idlewild Airport, to see all the action.
I got hooked on rails watching the Trolley on Mister Rogers' Neighborhood. I'm sure I'm not alone.
There was an episode where Fred talked about the trolley itself and I believe visited a local museum.
Chuck Greene
I am a fan of Thomas The Tank Engine...[TOYS,MOVIES..I got em]
more so for my daughter...but you know how it is...
Anyway,I go back bit to the Eastern division of the 60's...[QJ/JJ/RJ/MJ/KK/M]....
First came to NY in 67',and the first train I ever rode was the A....My dad was working for the TA for some time before we got here[long story..don't want to boar you]so I would from time to time ride with him while he was working...
He worked the Sea Beach mostly at first,then the Eastern lines,and at the end some lines out of Coney Island....
He was the one who first told me about the R 44 cars[when they were new] powering up on its own,moving on its own,and catching fire for no reason at all.
I used to wait for him at the end of his tour sometimes while he parked his KK "putin" on the center track on the Broadway EL...where we would sometimes go get a shake from the deli near the Lowes Gates movie house...and walk home...
those were fun days to be sure....
When I was approximately five, I vaugely remember the R110b. I recal its mosaics, and the great view from car to car. I also remember the external speakers.
\\Julian
--Mark
Word to the wise: keep away from subway bathrooms...save for Times Square of course, assuming the guard will let you in.
Peace,
ANDEE
Scuzzy? Where do you see Scuzzy in those photos.
Those are nice clean well maintained...
You wanna see scuzzy, you shoulda seen them in the 70s and 80s
Sheesh!
Knowing TA, supervision will send someone to the toilets to clean them out. That cleaniness will last until the next person goes potty.
-Chris-{Coming soon!transitpics.com!}
I would be more interested to see some shots of subway toilets. I think you could probably get some pictures of overflowing toilets or unflushed toilets which would be almost as powerful as some of the shots from some of the recent fan trips.
I think it was Dostoevsky who said that the measure of a civilization can be taken by the condition of its public restroom facilities.
If that is the case, New York must rank a few steps below Somalia and Papua New Guinea.
One time I took at chance going to the men;s room at Hoyt on the A. I opened the door wide and waited to see if anyone would move. Out of the back stall was one guy with a member the size of a zuccini. And next store to the toilet was the TAPD 30th District. I told the sergeant at the desk that a father and 5 year old son couldn't get in there. A minute later 4-5 cops barged in and dragged all the faggots out.
BTW, have you ever smelled the john at Jamaica Center? The odor will kill you standing 50 feet away from the entrance.
Been there, smelled that, nearly barfed. I can't begin to imagine what it would be like in the restroom itself.
Urban legend.
I don't have to, the courts of the State of Illinois have already established that he died from contact with the third rail and not from a current carried up a stream of urine.
From: JAE BOON LEE, Administratrix of the Estate of SANG YEUL LEE, Deceased, Plaintiff-Appellant, vs. CHICAGO TRANSIT AUTHORITY, Defendant-Appellee.
On October 21, 1977, the morning preceding the accident, the decedent informed plaintiff that he planned to attend a party in the evening. Decedent apparently left the party after dark. He proceeded up Kedzie Avenue, a north/south street which intersected with the northwest-bound Ravenswood rapid transit line. At this point, he apparently proceeded into the CTA's right-of-way in order to urinate. In the process of doing so, he came into contact with the third rail, and suffered fatal injuries.
The decedent's body was found on the elevated ("L") tracks located on the CTA's Ravenswood line at or near 4700 North Kedzie Avenue. John Costantini, a Chicago Fire Department paramedic field officer, testified that the decedent lay perpendicular to the northwest-bound CTA tracks, his head pointing north. The decedent's feet were near the third rail, pointing in its direction. (The third rail carries 600 volts of electricity and provides power to the train cars as they traverse grade crossings). The decedent's pants zipper was open, and his penis was exposed. The pathology report listed the immediate cause of death as electrocution. At the time of his death, the decedent had a 0.341 percent blood alcohol concentration which placed him in the stupor classification of intoxication.
You can see where I've added boldface that the decedent came in contact with the third rail. It also mentions his penis being exposed, but does not mention any burns to it, which would have invariably been present had the current entered his body through a stream of urine.
Yup... : )
BTW, what kind of sick hobby is "urinal.net". And people say WE are strange for taking photos of trains and stations!?!?!?!
Sick! To each his own I guess...
If I have to do a #2 I usually put 3-4 shhets of newspaper on top of the garbage pail and squat. That is probably gross. If it's a busy booth, I call for a comfort early on and hope someone comes.
As far as Iraq, I'd wait until the troops come homw and ask them if the bathrooms are better or not.
Da Hui
There at subwayspot.com.
As for all of the sounds, Ive been trying to get them also.
BTW, what is your old handle?
-Chris-{Coming soon!transitpics.com!}
Also (and this is posted, but in two disjoint places), those of you planning on transferring between the E and J in Jamaica tomorrow will find yourselves transferring between a shuttle train and a shuttle bus at Jamaica-Van Wyck.
The E was running to 179 even today. (The service advisory uses the ambiguous language “midnight Sunday,” which could refer to the midnight that opens Sunday or the midnight that closes Sunday. I mistakenly took it to mean the former.) The shuttle train is running between Jamaica Center and Continental, single-tracking on the Manhattan-bound track through Jamaica-Van Wyck and Sutphin, terminating at Continental on the Manhattan-bound express track. Jamaica-bound trains run light from Continental to Union and enter service there. Shuttle trains are running express in both directions; the layups that usually occupy those tracks were apparently placed elsewhere (and I have no idea where; the southbound 4th Avenue express was empty as well).
I would have gone with what you decided a few months ago. But through hours upon hours of research, it seems that "midnight Sunday" seems to always mean the "midnight that closes Sunday."
The rest of nycsubway.org answers your questions. The answers are already there -- you don't need to ask. There are hundreds of interesting pages to read and thousands of photographs to look at. Go through them rather than spending all your time on SubTalk and BusTalk. Then spend some time reading posts on SubTalk and BusTalk -- there are hundreds of thousands of old posts that still contain useful information. If you still have questions after that, then come back and ask.
also, go to www.straphanger.org and visit the bulletin board there. it's more informal, but probably a better place to start...
Secondly, for every line: there's a section of this very site that gives an overview of every line or branch or right-of-way. These include dates, the lines' origins if any pertain, and other things. Studying the subway map will give you a point of reference.
Thirdly, for every type of car: there's a section of this site for that as well. From the homepage there's a link for the roster of cars. There are the current cars, as well as retired cars.
Fourth; any other information can be obtained by reading discussion threads on this discussion board.
Finally, I encourage you to invest in books and materials pertaining directly to the New York City subway. If you are in NY, you can these books from just about any Barnes and Noble, as well as the Transit Museum itself. If not, you can order NY subway books from Ron's Books Inc. by mail-order (he has a website as well) as he has alot of NY subway titles. Oh, and that reminds me; visit the transit museum, that will help. Every little bit helps. Be a sponge.
I hope that helps.
R-32.
You need help, and FAST! Seek counseling now before it's too late.
Poor boy's BEST transit experiences around here are the CDTA 55 bus. And here y'all are busting his hump he's interested in the SUBWAYS fer Krissakes ... there ARE no subways here (at least where you can have your subway with or without cheese and toasted bread or not) and the kid is fascinated by it.
Granted "CDTA" is a *LAZY* phuck who won't go to this link and get ALL the answers (and pictures) he wants:
http://www.nycsubway.org/
But GEEZ, folks ... cut the kid some slack ... here in Smallbany and environs, it's CATSUP or mayo for your subway - that's as good as it gets ... and the only trains that run through HERE derail, or it wouldn't be news ... boxcars, nothing but boxcars AND TVX's. :(
But yes, someone's got to show da boy how to google without staining his pants. :)
R-32.
R-32.
Your pal,
Fred
PS keep reading this site; it's not just SubTalk, ya know.
"Piedmont's 'Dome Car' service
The dome car has been removed from service due to new federal fire safety regulations. The cost for rebuilding and upgrading the car to the new federal standards exceeded the amount justified for this car. The Dome Car will be sold through the State's Surplus Property Agency in the near future. "
And to think the page before that paragraph had an interior picture that got me exicted about the thought for a second.
http://www.officer.com/article/article.jsp?id=14765&siteSection=1
#3 West End Jeff
:(
Aren't there a few on this message board?
#3 West End Jeff
Would you be comfortable talking about your condition? How was it diagnosed? How does it affect you? Do you think Darius has it?
#3 West End Jeff
I wonder if he has internet access and/or knows about SubTalk ?
Bill "Newkirk"
http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/news/wabc_070904_missingteen_follow.html
#3 West End Jeff
So?
1) What station did you capture this photo?
and...
2) In general, how do generate blur effects?
2. I set the F-Stop low OR I set the shutter low. But usually the F-Stop works better for me. I just make sure I dont budge while the display on the camera says 'Capturing'
Next time I'll give your technique a shot.
Your pal,
Fred
R-32.
R-32.
#3 West End Jeff
Koi
That's exactly why I love those cars; silver streak.
R-32.
The ultimate in obscure subway trivia.
Heheh... it's a nice picture there.
As of Friday night they plan to shut the pick down Monday morning. Six or seven grievances were filed over the pick and they are scheduled to go to the contract arbitrator on June 16. They asked the TA to postpone the pick until then and the TA said no.
Unless they come up with an agreement over the weekend expect officers and shop stewards to be at the pick locations Monday morning.
I was also told there will be informational flyers going out over the weekend.
When I get more information I will pass it on.
Robert
The pick implemnetation date is supposed to be 4 weeks it is over 2 months.
We are picking ridiculously early for vacation
We have two picks a year in the contract, not one.
The temp status of the job.
There is a dispute of safety.
The implication of 8 car OPTO, ther eis an OPTO arbitration agreement already.
*********************************
I do not have direct access to what they filed and I do not claim to have the inside track. These were the issues that were discussed at UMD meetings.
Juts a Though
At the time the B.O.T. would not place signals more than 1/2 way into a station. Now that the other option is the dread WHEEL DETECTORS, the TA would rather put signals right through the station. There are also Zebra boards now too, so it's less likely the C/O would open up if the train was stopped behind a signal 3/4 way into the station...
Progress. Harumph! :)
That very same #6609 was sandwiched in between #6671 and another unidentified R-17 to bear witness to Popeye Doyle and Frog #1 as they played musical car doors on the 1971 film French Connection.
#6609 returned to her old stomping grounds for just one day, on that shuttle. It may be far fetched, but imagine Gene Hackman riding #6609 33 years later, minus the jelly apple !
"I don't care how many bar tenders you got that are sick.......Nah, I'm not working that joint........that's right.........same to you buddy !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Peace,
ANDEE
In fact after the snack bar was removed and before the station was rehabbed, you could see the outline in the concrete where the snack bar was.
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill: I remember the old snack bar well. It wasn't a fancy place but you could get a couple of eggs over easy with some toast at a good price and the coffee wasn't bad either. Whenever I would vist the city with my youngest son we would stop there for breakfast because of its convinient location. He got a big kick out of this restaurant in the subway.
Larry, RedbirdR33
I'll check my DVD of the film, I did notice an obvious green soda machine as the camera panned with #6671 and #6609 in the background.
Bill "Newkirk"
They didn't do it for TV. They did it because they wanted to do it, and TV asked to come along.
Thanks 4 representin' UncaBob!
Nope. TV asked them to do it. Mike is right.
Dude! I sooooooooo know a group, too!
The big question is: What's the best starting station and time, and what would be the best plan for doing it with the least backtracking. (So Stillwell Avenue should be open to all four lines first.). My first guess is to start/end at Rockaway Park and Pelham Bay Park. The rest is for someone else to figure out.
2) yeah, around 25 hours, which I find kind of hard to believe.
3) all of them except for a couple that were closed.
4) any links with more info.?
http://www.railfanwindow.com/gallery/ultimateRIDE
My suggestion is that someone do this. Carry an accurate watch, and a log book, recording times, locations, and at least one car number from every train ridden. When you are done, you have a documented record for the existing system. Also set your ground rules. For example are express runs through stations ok, or must you step out the door and set foot on every platform?
Then let the competition really begin
Good Luck!
Gerry
-Chris
Al Queda never attacks allies, which Shrub is, most likely. BU$H + House of Saud..............
BTW, Given the flaq erupting from the NAACP lately, anybody wanna bet the Secret Service detail is 100% Anglo-Saxon?
I think I'll stay in Baltimore and run streetcars - lots more interesting and safer.
Boston will be gridlocked while the democrats are in town! I hope things go well in NYC, it might help the republicans up here :)
Gerry
What happens with new hires and others who don't have enough vacation time to cover the closing period? Will they be paid or have to take a financial loss?
I'm sure the Bu$h tax cut will help them through... LOL if only it were funny...
I chose to take a week's vacation.
What floor do you work on? Have they changed plans? I know information sometimes travels really slowly in this building...
Pataki and Bloomberg should have the cojones to tell them “Unacceptable. If that’s the price, then stay in Washington and give your presentation by video!”
Well, actually, I *thought* or *assumed* that it would be at the Javits, until somebody here corrected me.
Apparently the Javits is no the right kind of a venue, being more set up for things like boat shows or car shows or the like rather than having comfortable (?!) Seating for spectators. Or am in incorrect in this assumption what with never having been there.
Hehehehe... the biggest convention we had in Bismarck was of those people that ride around in those Airstream trailers and mobil homes. There must have been a thousand or more of the things at the airport. Special water, sewage, power and telco lines were brought in. It was like a whole city moving into an existing city.
Then there was the hailstorm, big hail stones the size of baseballs! Beat the crap out of those campers, and most of them all got their insurance through the same company sponsored by the club.
Elias
I never heard. But that did not stop them from holding there convention in Bisarck AGAIN a few years later!
Venues that can supply that much water sewer and power at the drop of a hat are far and few between.
Elias
He will not be. But he will remember the *warm* reception that he got here when it comes time to sign any bills.
Elias
I have no idea what Al would have done about 9/11 and the aftermath, but GWB has done even less except create paranoia among the citizenry.
Spoken like someone who doesn't understand the demographics of this election. Every poll shows this race as a dead heat, both in the electoral college and the popular vote. Turnout will be key. Kerry will need overwhelming turnouts from all of his key supporters. Not gonna happen. African Americans have the poorest turnout in national elections of any minority. Republicans have already made enough inroads into the Latino vote to render it useless for Democrats. Young people are unbelievably cynical and won't turn out, especially for Kerry. Only women can save Kerry, and his advantage here won't be enough.
Bush will win this election. If you're betting on the anti-war hysteria to doom Bush, I'd like to point out Richard Nixon's landslide 1968 and 1972 victories at the height of Vietnam, and this ain't Vietnam.
I have no idea what Al would have done about 9/11 and the aftermath, but GWB has done even less except create paranoia among the citizenry.
Since Gore and Clinton bear indirect responsibilty for the carnage on 9/11, I'm glad we'll never really know.
It should be noted that in 1968, LBJ, the man who got us involved with Vietnam, was so deeply hated that he "chose not to run" for re-election, despite being eligible; Nixon the victor ran on a campaign to extract the US from Vietnam -- he played upon the anti-war hysteria to win the election. Truman's experience with Korea was similar, though to a lesser degree.
1972 - well I can't explain that (Nixon kept saying we were going to pull out of Vietnam, but just not yet), but suffice to say that less than 2 years later Nixon became the first (and still only) president to resign from office (albeit for something pretty much unrelated).
(a) there was only one son of a President who was elected, and that was J. Q. Adams. Ben Harrison was W. H. Harrison's grandson, and the Roosevelts were distant cousins. There were a few other distant relations, but no father/son pairs other than the Adamses.
(b) Dubya wasn't actually *elected* in 2000. LOL Re-elect Gore in '04 :)
On the plus side for Dubya, (b) probably exempts him from the Year Zero Assassination curse...
The only sitting VP in modern times to succeed to the presidency (by winning an election, not filling a seat vacated by the sitting President) in modern times is VP Bush 41, who succeeded the wildly popular Reagan. VP Gore in 2000 and VP Nixon in 1960 lost in closely-contested elections.
City to Bush: “Stay Away!”
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
MTA = State Agency
Who do you think will win this argument. Secret Service calls the shots. They did it with the DNC. Don't think it's not going to happen in NY too. Especially for a Republican convention for a president who is the most hated US President in recent US history. At least I don't have to work in Boston on the weekend (the 24th and 25th) when the MBTA DNC service changes begin and I can come back to NY for that weekend. But during that week . . .
LBJ? Nixon?
Dubya's actually quite popular, sad to say...
Hardly. Reagan was hated by the left, Clinton by the right. The divisions seen today haven't changed in over 30 years.
What I meant to say before is that, yes, if he comes to NY it is necessary for security measures, however, it is not like he *has* to come or the RNC has to be in NYC. If he cannot be accomodated here (or anywhere for that matter) without disrupting litterally millions of people (and it is not a trip necessary for national security, etc.) then he has no business here in the first place.
I'm sorry for the spelling errors, I am tired as hell, it's 4:30, I think....
goodnight
I could understand banning trucks from nearby roads, and worrying if a freight line ran right next door, but commuter passenger rail? At most, I would run a sniffer dog through the train the station before penn, and even that is overkill.
And by creating crowds of stranded people or herding thousands of people through tiny gates and creating security checkpoints to back them up even further, you create masses of humanity which prove to be ideal terrorist targets - ask any Palestinian terrorist.
Forget about fancy-pants radiological bombs and all kinds of biological devices (which neither the US military nor the Soviet military, nor any other well-financed group in decades of scientific research, let alone a ragtag bunch of guys in caves, were able to get to work effectively) - what about a guy with a gun in a trench coat walking down the street - BRRRRRRP!! into a pile of people waiting to get into one of the only entrances to Penn station or herded into some narrow roped-off path or waiting in line at a checkpoint - that's terrorism, folks, and all these diversions only increase the lure of such an attack by creating juicy targets and stranded victims.
But the Secret Service isn't calling to ask for my consulting services, so you'll get what they want.
Not that the Secret Service cares about ordinary train commuters, so long as the big shots at the convention are safe.
(Selkirk slaps hand for saying that)
What do you call 10,000 politicians in a burning building?
A good start...
there's nothing else to say.
Fully closing Penn Station IS absurd ... but that doesn't mean that it won't happen. I still have a strong suspicion that there will be at least some periods during which it'll be shut down completely. I hope I'm wrong.
It's here(almost).
transitpics.com.
No more ads, long urls, slow connections.
More photos, pages, maps.
Coming in a few hours.
Due to FreeWebs Domains functions, much of my current site, here, is down. Visiting transitpics.com as of this post will yield no results. Please be patient. This is my fisrt .com site and I hope it goes well.
Thank you SubTalk. -Chris
-Chris
http://www.tvacres.com/trains_supertrain.htm
http://www.syracuse.com/business/poststandard/index.ssf?/base/business-5/1089448618238692.xml
I'm about to post an article from yesterday's TimesUnion regarding the time warp at Joe Bruno's train station up here. It's amusing.
avid
David
avid
Its up, but im still doing updates.
transitpics.com
More content coming soon!
-Chris
Now onto you having a job for me. Unfortunatley, I cant design things like that, but if you would like to make your own site with that template, I think you can transfer your own domain (anticlimber) over to them. Tell me the job and id be glad to try it.
Thank you for your interest in TransitPics.com.
-Chris
Actually, thanks for the suggestion, would PowerPoint yield the same template-like results: I have it.
-Chris
You're off to a great start!!!!
GOOD LUCK!!!
-Chris
Ben F. Schumin :-)
-Dave
BTW, speaking of hosts, could you put a link to my new site, transitpics.com?
Thanks alot.
-Chris
Anyway, the Talks are fairly resource intensive. When it started out I had it on the same box, which at the time was a sparc 20 dual 60 mhz machine. A workhorse but not too spritely. Moved it off to my machine at home using the vhost name brighton. Upgraded the main server and moved it back. Outstripped capacity again and leased a server elsewhere for the talks (which I reused the name brighton for). Bandwidth utilization outstripped my package and it was cheaper to move elsewhere. Bye bye brighton, again. The names are more or less movable at whim from machine to machine. The main site's been hosted on 5 different servers altogether from the beginning.
Thanks!
http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=264729&category=REGION&newsdate=7/9/2004
Rensselaer -- Experts called to see why one of the four faces on station
tower can't keep time
By CATHY WOODRUFF, Staff writer
First published: Friday, July 9, 2004
Your train may be on time, but the clock's a different story.
The distinctive copper-domed clock tower atop the Rensselaer Rail
Station has four faces, and one of them has a sharp hour-and-a-half
difference of opinion with the other three.
"That's weird," said Stacy O'Brien of
Watervliet as she examined two
conflicting clock faces visible from
Broadway, about a block northwest
of the station on Thursday. "So, what
time do you go by if you're going to
catch a train?"
Neighbors who had noticed the
difference were divided on how long
the west-facing clock has been out of
whack, but a spokesman for the Capital District Transportation
Authority, which owns the station, estimated it has been several weeks
since the renegade timepiece went its own way.
Massachusetts-based Americlocks, the company that installed the
tower's timekeeping equipment during construction of the $53.1 million
station, was called in initially to reset the clock and repair any problems,
said Carm Basile, CDTA's chief of staff and marketing director.
But since the crew found nothing mechanically wrong and the western
face resumed its contrary disposition after being reset, Basile said the
authority now has called on experts with Sage Engineering of Albany to
investigate the cause.
The best guess, for now, is that recent severe storms have been
disrupting the computers and electronics that control clock operations
within the tower, Basile said.
"Apparently, there have been some power surges at the building and in
the area around the building," he said. "We've had other electrical
systems fail -- nothing major, but we have an engineer evaluating
whether surge protectors are needed or more surge protectors are
needed."
Station architect Frank Gilmore said the master computer that controls
the four faces is supposed to have a built-in surge control system, as
well as features such as automatic reset during transitions to and from
daylight savings time.
Coincidentally, the Rensselaer Rail Station is in august company with its
current clock troubles. Metro-North Railroad, which is in charge of
clocks at Grand Central Terminal, is planning to install a new $50,000
master clock next month in an effort to bring consistency to the New
York City station's multiple historic clocks.
While the Grand Central clock disagreements spark frequent frustration
for commuters wondering how fast to run for the next train, however,
the discrepancy among the Rensselaer tower clocks seems to go largely
unnoticed.
Few folks passing by the station on Thursday said they depend on the
distinctive tower for anything more than the pleasing view.
Susan Lupian, who can see the station clocks clearly when she leaves
work at City Hall each day, said she's learned to rely on other cues to
assess the correct time.
"The fire alarm is the only thing that is set correctly," she said. "It goes
off at 8:30 every morning. And the church bell rings at 6 every night."
=======================================
Actually, it's all pretty easy to explain - the clock in question faces the CAPITOL where nothing's been on time for over 20 years. :)
To the religious types, this would be called "Omen." Heh.
Uh, if you know the displays over at GCT that give time and train departure/arrival information, are they still the old flip-sign style or are they modern LCD's?
To the religious types, this would be called "Omen." Heh.
What locations do you recommend? And as for a general question, what chemicals are used to produce the 'steam' in those little models? What scale should I consider? Why are there different scales?
Pick HO scale as this in the smallest you can have a (live) steam locomotive.
Different scale is based on what you can affort, the size of the home, and what you are trying to accomplish.
OK... back to subway stuff..
They may or may not have steam engines.
If they have them, tell the rest of us about it!
Assuming you mean New York State and not just the city here's some info from 2004 Annual Guide to Tourist Railroads.
Angelica, NY Static Display 1-800-836-1869
Arcade & Attica RR operating steam www.anarr.com
Central Square, Marcellus NY www.rrhistorical-2.com/cnynrhs
Dunkirk, NY static display 716-366-3797
Phoenicia, NY static display of steam loco.www.esrm.com. You can vist this museum by car or take the Catskill Mountain RR from Mount Pleasant. www.catskillmtrailroad.com
Larry,RedbirdR33
Uh, if you know the displays over at GCT that give time and train departure/arrival information, are they still the old flip-sign style or are they modern LCD's?
According to Transportation Alternatives, there will be a formal opening of the bicycle path later this month.
Near the Manhattan end of the path, you can get a nice view of the 6th Ave service entering the tunnel to Grand Street.
Why is that?
The interesting part of this path was that it was closed in 1942 because the Navy didn't want people standing there and taking pictures of the Navy Yard.
Why is that?"
If you approach the entrance to the path from the south along Jay Street and you're riding with the flow of traffic, then you have to contend with a merge of traffic off the Manhattan Bridge. In addition they have put up fencing along the sidewalk leading to both entrances, which prevents you from getting on the sidewalk and out of traffic.
Here's the article about the new entrance from Transportation Alternatives.
http://www.transalt.org/press/askta/040709.html
The onramp on the Brooklyn side consists of a loop that is somewhat more steeply graded than the bridge, and the Manhattan end of the path ends with a bridge over the sidewalk that eventually joins the sidewalk.
--Mark
To stay on topic, I should mention that I kept pace with an N train most of the way over the bridge Bklyn-bound, which tells you more about the timers than about my chances in the Tour.
Going the other way (coming off the bridge), there are some nasty merges near the BQE.
I think we have too much access from the East river bridges and should now concentrate on other bridges. I would really love access accross the Goethals bridge because that would open up the Jersey Shore by bicycle. In fact, it would save me from having to take the HBLR to the PATH and the North Jersey Coastline! There was a bike path there but it's been closed since 1995.
The next bridge I would like to see open for bicycle traffic is the Verrazano Bridge. Robert Moses vetoed the bike path but they can still be implemented.
It begins:
"Daniel Simmons does not, simply cannot, take requests from the audience, no matter how much his fans wave and cry out for their favorites. These people just have to understand that he cannot, for example, just belt out his ever-popular "All aboard" unless a train is actually about to leave the station.
Mr Simmons is the train announcer at Pennsylvania Station, and his distinctive style has made him something of a celebrity to the hundreds who work there and to many of the estimated half million travelers who move through the station each day. A few aren't even going anywhere, they just come to catch the act."
Mr Simmons retired in 1994 at the age of 73.
I don't spend any time in Penn Station, so I don't know if there is any current announcer there with an equally compelling style.
There have been occasions in the subway, when I was really captivated by the sound of a conductor's voice. Until the demise of the Q diamond, I always looked forward to one particular conductor's somewhat weary but intriguing voice.
Regards,
Jimmy
Regards,
Jimmy
I used to love he'd call out the Lake Shore Limited to SHEE - CAHHHHH -- GO.
I rode his train *ONCE* in 1993.... he retired in 93/94 or so.
Wasnt --until-- his retirement that the NYTimes wrote an arty about him....
which made me realize ""that was the C/R I had ridden with"" that 1 time.
IIRC, he had something to report or inform about EACH station on the line
and made you NOT want to get off his train (because each trivia answer
was being given out AFTER the next subsequent station... such a class act!)
Bob
I hope the TA makes these fan-trip able or something... I'd pay the 40 bucks. Anything for those babies.
Bill "Newkirk"
BTW, any of my beloved Redbirds (R33 ML/R36 WF) there too?
til next time
What *this* is this of which you speak?
The upcoming MOD with thearnines and BUs???
If so, then yes, I already did spend my $40.00
Elias
til next time
-RJM
I did ride these during their short testing run on the 2 some years ago...but back then, I had no interest in transit unlike now. The announcements were similar to the ones heard on the Millenium Cars today.
\\Julian
-RJM
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
You got alternating colors in each car!!! How much more color do you want? Psychadelic tye-dye colored seating?
til next time
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
The MTA doesn't think this is necessary. They were only prototypes, and they did their work (or so they say... just look at the R142 fiasco upon delivery).
In addition, I don't *think* they're compatable.
Personally, I'd think the R110b to come back... even only with six cars.
\\Julian
I have suggested here that the R-110B's be given longitudinal seating and dedicate them for the Times Sq-Grand Central shuttle.
Now you'll probably say, they can't run five car trains on the shuttle and that's true. But I read that plans for rehabbing the shuttle calls for running two five car trains instead of two four car and one three car trains. Coincidence ? Maybe they'll wake up and use their heads. After all, The R-11s were a ten car prototype that was an oddball in comparison to the other fleet of SMEES. So the TA rehabbed them and called them R-34s and put them on the Franklin Shuttle. Better than scrapping them.
Bill "Newkirk"
\\Julian
\\Julian
\\Julian
David
Now let's of course be real - the only place where such speeds were part of the TA designs permitted for (thus the 44's and 46's) was the SAS. The "old subway" could never imagine such speeds. Though I'm pretty sure I broke 55 in arnines. DECADES ago when speed was only limited by amperes available. :)
Wayne says the R-6-2s were speed demons.
R-32.
It's always been a necessity for all trainsets to run at the same speed as a practical matter, though I suspect that the newer cars would have gone a LOT faster than the older ones if it weren't for speed governors kicking in. When you opened up an arnine, that was it - they couldn't go faster than their natural balancing speed. Newer cars had a few tricks that the older cars didn't have, and yet had their taps set so that they COULDN'T go faster than the older cars out there on the REAL rails.
As we've learned with descriptions of the Hippos though here, even though they're all setup to do the SAME speed, some cars are faster than others despite physics. :)
I'll second that motion. Those 40's are (were) faster than people think - if they could look past their reaction to the rectified front slants. Actually the whole '40' family cousins, I've found to be quite snippy if under-appreciated. They are bland but comfortable.
R-32.
David
R-32.
David
I beg to differ. I used to time various trains, DECADES ago, when they used to have half mile markers in the tunnels. Expresses rarely exceeded 40 mph.
R-32.
Line Route Limits Weekday, Time Miles Per Hour
Lexington Exp 4,5 Brooklyn Bridge to 125th St 10:49 20.3
Lexington Local 6 Brooklyn Bridge to 125th St 10:06 13.8
Pelham Local 6 Parkchester to 125th 12:17 17.5
Pelham Exp 6 Parkchester to 125th 12:17 22.1
Jerome 4 Woodlawn to 125th 1:54 16.7
WPR - Local 2 E 180th to 149th St 12:20 13.5
WPR - Exp 5 E 180th to 149th St 9:05 23.7
Broadway/7th Exp 2,3 Chambers to 96th 10:58 20.0
Broadway/7th Local 1 Chambers to 96th 12:00 13.0
Upper Bwy Local 1 96th to Van Cortlandt 12:04 15.5
Flushing Exp 7 Main Street to Queensboro 11:49 24.5
Flushing Local 7 Main Street to Queensboro 11:58 17.5
8th Avenue Exp A 145th to Broadway-Nassau 12:20 18.5
8th Avenue C 145th to Broadway-Nassau 12:19 15.5
6th Avenue Local F, V W 4th to Rock Center 10:21 14.7
6th Avenue Exp B, D W 4th to Rock Center
Upper 8th Avenue A 145th to 207th 12:15 14.5
Fulton Express A Euclid to Jay 12:08 24.7
Fulton Local C Euclid to Jay 12:56 18.3
Queens Blvd Exp E, F 71st St to Queens Plaza 10:38 23.1
Queens Blvd Local V, R 71st St to Queens Plaza 12:32 14.6
Queens Blvd Outer F 179th Street to 71st Street 3:00 18.8
Culver F Kings Hwy to Jay Street 10:50 17.6
Crosstown G Hoyt to Court
Concourse Local B Fordham to 145th 8:57 14.4
Concourse Exp D Fordham to 145th 8:56 18.6
Broadway Local R Whitehall to Lex 10:59 11.1
Broadway Exp Q Canal to 57th 10:20 17.1
Brighton Local Q Brighton to DeKalb 3:22 16.8
Brighton Exp B Brighton to DeKalb 3:23 21.2
4th Ave Local R 95th Street to DeKalb 1:18 14.4
4th Ave Exp N 59th Street to Pacific 11:13 18.4
West End D Stillwell to 36th Street 11:35 13.3
Sea Beach N 86th Street to 59th Street 10:58 17.0
Canarsie L Rockaway Pkwy to Bedford 12:04 17.4
Jamaica Local J/Z Jamaica Center to Essex 12:30 17.2
Jamaica Skip Z/Z Jamaica Center to Essex 8:17 18.4
Bridges and Tunnels
Manhattan Bridge Q DeKalb to Canal 10:12 16.9
Williamsburg M Marcy to Essex 9:21 17.1
Montigue Tunnel R DeKalb to Whitehall 1:43 19.3
Cranberry Tunnel A Jay to Bwy-Nassau 12:01 24.0
14th St Tunnel L Lorimer to 1st Ave 12:27 28.5
63rd St F 21st Street to Lexington 3:26 22.5
53rd Street V 23rd to Lexington 1:07 28.1
60th Street W Queensboro to Lexington 10:26 26.3
Broadway/7th Exp 2,3 Chambers to 96th 10:58 20.0
Broadway/7th Local 1 Chambers to 96th 12:00 13.0
How are these times reported? They don't fit in with my recollection (they should be larger, and the difference is certainly larger than 62 seconds, that's for sure), and they certainly don't match the speeds reported (given that the local and the express traverse the same distance from Chambers to 96, the ratio of speeds should match the inverse ratio of travel times, and they don't, by a long shot).
After inquiring about the card with the station agent, she showed me one and I purchased one with $4.00 on it.
I'm not sure if the MVM's have them, but the booth does. For how long is anybody's guess. It was reported on SubTalk that the Auto Zone store advertised on the card is nearby. So it's also anybody's guess is other stations have them.
Bill "Newkirk"
David
Maybe they have Redbird seats for sale.
Anything but their cooking oil, brah!!
I took the 9:19 HuntersPt Av. Train from Huntington and it was running 15 minutes late into Huntington...Now By the time we were in Penn We were 55 Minutes Late. Supposedly one of the engines completly failed leaving Kings Park and the one head engine had to pull 8 bilevels and a dead engine. Now the train could only go 35mph in these conditions and made it that late....LIRR Late Never...
DYLAN
The move explains my hiatus from subtalk, in case if anyone was wondering, so I'm back full tilt!
Who the f**k makes a camera with 2 record buttons?!? Oy!
I'm just going to crawl into the corner of my room in fetal position going through subway withdrawls until someone posts something about a T1... Or play Halo, or Metroid Prime or something.....
The (currently going through TTC withdrawl) WoodlawnBowlingGreen
Mark
Shame....on you MTA//////X^{
Boring.
Finding H4 cars is fun. Riding H6 cars is always interesting because you never know what's going to go wrong.
-Robert King
By the way, part of the wall tiles at York Mills have been removed; I rode through on the weekend to and from the head office.
-Robert King
Mark
-Robert King
Mark
Individual NYCT Maps Available!
Click here!
Please check them out and tell me your comments/or if there are any broken links to them.
Thanks.
-Chris
Besides the fact that the line bullets you used are copyrighted, you shouldn't remote link them off of the MTA's website. Save them on to your own server, or make your own bullets, like I did on my site. You can download the MTA bullet font somewhere (can't find the link, but another SubTalker must have it)
-Chris
If you were going to do what you did, you could've just done one map and asked what we thought of it instead of going all out making incomplete maps for every line.
-Chris
Thanks.
-Chris
When the IND letter code was expanded in 1960 to include the BMT, the TA pulled out all the stops in an effort to familiarize the riding public with the new code. "Know Trains at a Glance" signs, with all Southern Division route names cross referenced with the new markings, were prominently displayed on station platforms until 1967, when the Chrystie St. connection opened. I remember seeing such signs. Still, old habits die hard. Brooklynites still used the old BMT titles and, "What's a Q/N/T/RR?" was heard more than once.
This probably led to the demise of double lettered routes, because the BMT didn't fit neatly into all express or all local routes.
OTOH JJ and 14 were seen on the R-27/30s and R-16s, respectively. I rode on a JJ once, in March of 1968.
Prior to Chrystie St., M was used for the rush hour Bankers Specials. On the Know Trains at a Glance signs, M was referred to simply as, Nassau St. Express.
As for a retrofit, I doubt it. As soon as the first R62's came in they new the bucket seats were a mistake because of all the complaints. I believe ten cars were came in with bench seats as some sort of test but it was felt that changing the order for the undelivered cars to bench seats was too expensive.
So why would they care about the color of the signs. After all it is only for the passenger. But when a high executive needs to have his office painted, they not only make sure he gets the color he wants, but it has to be the exact shade.
Micheal: A further difficulty at that time was the one-piece roll signs of the R-40,42 and 44 cars. They could only carry a limited number of route readings and if they were switched to a different line it took the TA months to install the proper signage.
Larry, RedbirdR33
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/210998p-181796c.html
BTW we got the Barberi both ways to and from SI and if it weren't for the different colored seats and the new window frames on the main deck, you'd never know that there had been a disaster there.
wayne
"Back in the day" we ran with the cab sash down so we could guess our speed by the sound of the motors so it could get seriously loud in there doing our thing. When trains screech at platforms, most of the sound is UNDER it - in the tunnel, every nuance was reflected right up and into the cab. MUCH louder in there. And REDBIRDS were the loudest of all for that for their own funky reasons.
So all I can say in response to your not enjoying the "sound of the rails" is "Huh? Whaddya say? Huh? Speak up!" =)
wayne
R-32.
Why? The screech adds character!
Michael
Washington, DC
wayne
Awaiting your Department of Tile report on DeKalb Ave.
Bill "Newkirk"
The reproduction of the tileband looks absolutely magnificent. Blends in very seamlessly.
They are going to have to retile a part of the tileband though...there's a part where it just reads "KALB AV" as some cables were cut through the "DE."
The station is really looking great. Can't wait to see how it's going to look when completed.
The R142, 142a and 143 have a very exquisite musics. Some of them makes a "violin-like" noise when they start pulling off. How? I wouldn't know for the life of me.
Thank you all in advance?
This used to be called a 'Level Crossing" ie: at Newark and Darlington ,etc or if neccesary 'Rail Level crossing'.
The expression 'Level Crossing' on it's own is assumed to be a one level Road/Rail crossing (Grade Crossing in US)
Grade level is where the tracks (or road or whatever) is and if something else crosses that thing at its own level then that crossing is at grade.
the (M) crosses the (J) at grade.
Sometimes the grade level is on the ground and there is a crossing gate, (or a diamond and an interlocking in the case of trains that cross each other). Sometimes the grade level is on the ground and the crossing is via a bridge or an underpass.
Crossings at grade wither on the ground, on an el or in a tunnel require protection.
Elias
Joe
Do you know if that had anything to do with it?
-Broadway Buffer
or do you know what your talking about?
North of the station,the tunnels widen out to 4 tracks...two turn off to Marcy ave ,and 2 run under Laffeyette for a bit....untill the bummer blocks.
Just before the station there a X over that allows the lines to terminate at Bedford or continue Downtown...Out side of the station,the center tracks merdge with local tracks...
At Classon ave,there is a layup track[or space for one] for trains to lay over if needed...
Wouldve been a good set up for sure....Many times I've found myself in need of such a service...[Bedford ave -to Broadway]..
-James
Anyway it all went well, But i wonder if the T/O reported that incident since the train stopped and left the station in seconds.
Because they were put there.
Given the choice between (1) an oddball train or (2) no train at all, I'll take the oddball any day. (On the other hand, a "purist" would choose to abandon trips rather than deviate from the official car assignment to any degree.)
David
How is that possible? Service is more frequent on weekdays and the running time is no shorter.
David
Now why somtimes do I see NJT ALP46s pulling amtrak train cars... I never see Amtrak engines pulling NJT coaches. Is there a contact between the two?
Dylan
NJT will take over operation of the Clockers in a couple years.
4628 on Clocker
4622 on Clocker
4611 on Clocker
Your pal,
Fred
Nope . . . expect the bilevels (ostensibly "Comet VI") to be mixed in with other (single-level) cars, pulled by the new PL42AC diesels (when they arrive) on other lines, and generally all over the place.
I only hope that non-rush hour frequencies will be improved. General ridership seems to be increasing constantly.
The NEC only has low-level platforms at Jersey Avenue (except in case of failure/track maintenance when all bets are off and service is abysmal). During busy times, trains either terminate or bypass Jersey Avenue, so the low-level is not really an issue.
So how does having 4 generally useable doors impact dwell time?
Is that why they are in the process of re-furbushing over 100 "end door only" Comet II coaches?
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
The less doors available, the more "dwell time" there is. That is the bottom line. It might not sound like a lot of time, but just 30 seconds at each stop results in being about 6 minutes late to Long Branch or Trenton.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/11/national/11RAILS.html?hp
"In a court proceeding Mr. Ryan (the manager) explained under oath that he drove to the crossing a few hours before Mr. Scarpelli's inspection to replace potentially defective signal parts. A dozen years earlier, the manufacturer had reported that those parts had malfunctioned in one instance and cautioned that signals with those parts might fail to warn motorists of oncoming trains in time. In other words, they could cause a short signal."
Hey Sarge, drop me an e-mail. I have info that Bagel Street is really Beagle Street.
Oh, and although I'm sure you're right about it being Beagle Street it sure sounds like Bagel Street to me!!
You missed the point there. The point behind the whole article was that an accident scene is not supposed to be tampered with before police document what happened and collect evidence. It doesn't matter whether the UP manager did it at night, in secret, or in the open. Of course, being an NYPD veteran (and you were a supervisor, not just a beat cop) you're supposed to know that.
"I mean we all know newspapers especially the NY Times are usually biased. "
No, we don't all "know" that. All newspapers show bias at one time or another, and the NY Times is no worse than any other. The article did report a study which showed that nearly 90% of all accidents are indeed the fault of the motorist.
"An example of the NY Times bias is in the article about the anti Semitic world court's decision on legality of the Israeli fence the other day the NY Times NEVER mentioned the fact that the decision was read by a Chinese judge!!!"
As opposed to a Bolivian judge who lets narco-traffickers go because of his risk of assassination? There were no personal risks to the Chinese judge's safety when he read the court's decision in this case.
The international court is a political animal. Ithink the Times assumes most people understand that (even you do). But the then the US and Israel play their own games, so this isn't automatically about anti-Semitism.
But then we know from your attitudes that, to you, criticism of Israel on any point = anti-Semitism.
I think the article was interesting and valuable. My guess is that in areas where passenger rail is highly developed (the Northeast Corridor, Chicago) railroad crossings are well-protected and function correctly. So the % of accidents that would be the railroad's fault would be almost nil. OTOH, accidents in places mentioned by the article (not the Northeast Corridor or Chicago or even Los Angeles) have lots of unprotected or partially protected crossings where the railroad is more likely to be at fault (though still in a minority of cases).
My commentary section is smaller this week due ot Johnnie Byrd writing a long and sarcastic letter in response to the local paper giving the most mean and nasty withdrawl of support to a hometown persons senate bid I have ever seen, so i only see one NYTimes columnist today. Bob Herbert, and I like what he says in this one. Calling edwards a populist, and giving Cheny's record on how he votes against Head Start, college aid, school lunches and against the elderly. Yea, i really want this halliburton junkie in office(I'm so tempted to buy a new book on the subject. There must be a lot of info for a big hardcover book).
Back to the subject, years ago Penn State gave the local paper, the USA today, and the times out for free in all the buildings. After a few times, I never touched the times again. I miss the USA today though, that was an interesting paper.
Just in time for the COUNVENTIONS! Here is WorldPoliticsTalk No violence, threats of violence or slander will be tolerated However the First Amendmend gives wide latitude to criticize our elected officials. Let 'er rip!!! Go th WorldPoliticsTalk:
http://www.nycrail.com/amb/otbrd/20.htmlClick here!
http://www.nycrail.com/amb/otbrd/20.html
http://www.nycrail.com/cgi-bin/messageboard/view.cgi?board=otbrd
WE WANT RIGHT WINGERS, WE WANT LEFT WINGERS, WE'LL EVEN TAKE MODERATES IF THEY CAN STAND IT.
Just need to win the lotto so i can free up almost 10 hours a day 5 days a week. :)
http://www.boarshevik.com/forums.php?m=topics&s=2
Our town is also < 700 people. We have three grade crossings, two with crossing gates, and the third with only crossbucks (no lights or gates)
Trains cruise this line at 55+ mph; about 20 to 30 trains a day; 95% of them 100+ car unit coal trains (east) or hoppers (west).
The crossing without gates is on a dirt road with poor visibility to the west (weeds and a small hill) Trains do not always whistle that crossing, especially at night in deference to a farm house right against the tracks. This road almost NEVER has any traffic on it (unless it is the town railfan or there is a train blocking the other two crossings.)
BNSF has been closing many such roads, but this one will stay open because it is needed if the other two become blocked. It is exactly 1 mile from the Highway 8 crossing, in theory a train could block all three, but they would have to try to do it. I can time the trains by using a stop watch against the whistles at the crossings.
With car windows closed (A/C in July and heat the rest of the year), and thumpy bass boom boxes in the cars now, the train horns do not stand a ghost of a chance of being heard. Still, I have never had a call to a grade crossing accident.
Elias
And only 71 non-reported, come on, we all know how the philly PD threw away or didn't report 100 times that many crimes under fast eddie. That's nothing.
Nothing unusual about that. Most accidents of any type are the result of human error.
UP is crediting the exploding economy with causing its service meltdown. The real cause was an unexpectedly high rate of early retirements when the retirement age dropped from 62 to 60. UP polled the employees who would be 60 or 61 when the change was scheduled to take place to determine how many replacement employees would be needed. The older employees all lied and said they wouldn't take early retirement, because with many years of experience with UP they expected management to treat them like chit and screw them out of benefits. Then when the early retirement date arrived they all retired, leaving UP hundreds of employees short.
Increased freight business is a factor in UP's difficulties, but the major cause of the meltdown was the mass retirement.
No matter what the state of UP operations and management is, the bottom line is that you have to exercise utter caution before wandering out onto a railroad crossing. No matter what the gates or lights might be telling you, always keep an ear out for the locomotive horn. There's a reason that trucks especially are required to STOP AT RR CROSSINGS, you know.
Thought the NY Times was the ultra-lib paper? In that case, why are they taking a far-right approach towards the funding of railroad infrastructure???
Because it isn't an ultra-lib paper.
It *is* an Ultra Lib paper, and it attacks the RR because it sees the RR as an ultra-right-bigbucks-Cheney orgainzation.
Or so they say...
Elias
Problem is, the articles come across as attacking the railroad because it's a railroad, which is a very right-wing position. They at least could have injected the so-called "left-wing agenda" of actually funding the railroad infrastructure out of tax dollars so that there won't be any more grade crossings . . . ?
Good point. One time in the country(place known as Bone Valley) in the middle of the night I came upon a crossing with the lights going. Not a single person chanced the crossing. There was obviously somethign wrong, but didn't see any loco, lights, or horn, and hurried to the other side after determining it was safe.
I wish people took this much care at a four way stop sign.
Poor New Yorkers. The Times makes things up. The Post can't get their facts straight. Newsday inflates it circulation. My kingdom for a legitimate newspaper.
http://momastore.org/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10001&storeId=10001&productId=14112&langId=-1&parent_category_rn=10281&categoryId=10283&giftCat=null
Shalom from Tel Aviv. Andy.
Then there was this blonde who called up her boyfriend one day and said, "Darling, I need your help. I bought this jig saw puzzle today, it's got a really nice picture of a tiger, but I just can't do it. I've been working on it for hours and hours and haven't made any progress at all. Can you come over and help?"
The boyfriend comes over, looks at it, and says to the blonde,
"Put away the Frosted Flakes."
i found it, still in the original shrink wrapping, at a garage sale for $1!!!
it's from 1979. i have no idea how much (if anything) it would be worth.
Try this !
Bob
Thanks in advance.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
Centennial Commorative Edition coming July 16th
-Chris
-Chris
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Jimmy ;)
til next time
Here is a newer one they got. A pullman coach from PRR named the "Bradenton". A town a few miles ot the south.
And a steam loco was out on this day sitting there on display:
Luckily I didn't get bit by any snakes or hit by lightening during this short shoot.
The musuem is in the middle of nowehre almost. When I mention the middle of nowhere and growth on this board, this is one example of what i mean:
No cars or nothing around for miles, maybe hours. Why are you gonna build subdivions on this? No cops around even at all.
ANd a bonus shot of a new urbanist development I found. Very nice one.
To my knowledge it's a new addition to their fleet and it looks as if in perfect condition. I have to go back and see the inside soon. But very interesting history.
R-32.
On US301
R-32.
[END OF RANT]
Sean@Temple
I will change my password again.
I have no say over the governance of a website. However, I believe that such conduct calls for revocation of posting privileges of the offender (since he can do that to anybody for any reason). However, that is my opinion, and I'll let David Pirmann decide what he wants to do, or not do at all, as per his prerogative.
Did it just fall apart, or what?
Cutting back the line from Park Row to Bridge-Jay Sts. was one nail in the coffin. Same result for the Third Ave "el" when it became a Bronx only line with no express service.
Also add to this that the structure was old and weak with the oldest rolling stock around. I was told that Harold Fisher once promised that if he was appointed MTA Chairman, he would close the line and demolish it. He got in and lived up to his word.
For it's quaintness and history, I loved "Old Myrt".
Bill "Newkirk"
Willoughby! Next stop is Willoughby!
Yeah, I undrstand wy they would want to get rid of an old el, but they really isolated this area.
And the most maddening thing about it is that nobody ever seemed to care. Perhaps people back then didn't want certain people coming down the line. Now, 'those people' are all here anyway, and even they all have cars, (even the youngsters, it seems) or use the car services which are every few blocks apart.
Only some of us are stuck out there trying to get what seems like clear across the world.
What I would like to see is some sort of elevated light rail (like Aitrain) or monorail (like Wild Asia Ride). Perhaps even shifted to Park Ave. next to the BQE. But since no one is even asking for it, why should they even think of it?
For now, the best I could see them doing, which would serve some people, perhaps evenautally draw ridership, is an express minibus service along Park, Bway and Myrtle; maybe even open up the Acess-a-Ride system to the general public along that corridor.
Remember that in the case of Jamaica, it was a handful of large merchants who campaigned for the closing of the el. As far as I know, the far more numerous smaller businesses and residents were less eager to see it go, especially since everyone knew that the replacement subway wouldn't open for several years (though they may not have realized it would be 10+ years).
I don't know why there was no real community opposition to the closing of Myrtle Avenue. The idea of a community voice in government affairs was around then, if not quite as highly developed as it is today. Maybe people thought that bus service would be better than it actually turned out to be?
In the case of the Myrtle line, I'm not sure if there was any real impetus for community action. The groups in that line's service area would push for other things, but where was the incentive to fight for a line on which you needed to have a paper transfer to reach Manhattan? The writing was probably on the wall for that line from the day that the tracks came off of the Brooklyn Bridge.
I say the next subway we build should be an underground extension of the M subway - a reconstructed branch going to Metro-Tech Center in Brooklyn.
Hey,we can hope...right?
And you call yourself a railfan? :)
It didn't help the Lexington Ave el or the Fulton-Lex either.
The Myrtle elevated, like Third Ave, was victimized by bad timing, that being that it needed a major rebuilding at exactly the same time the prevailing attitude towards els like this was to simply destroy them. Had both survived a decade longer, both would still be in existence today, IMHO.
After 1944, the Myrtle El ended at Jay Street, having lost its Manhattan connection over the Brooklyn Bridge. So a transfer was required (to the A at Jay St.) for trips to Manhattan anyway.
Remember that the portion north of Broadway was rebuilt under the dual contracts and is still alive and well, and provides a direct route to Manhattan. I rode it regularly in the mid-1970's, when I lived in Queens and worked at the World Trade Center. Then the M train was through routed to Coney Island on the Brighton Line.
From what I recall, ridership was still pretty decent, even at the end. The line could have been useful if it had been connected to the Fulton Street Line and extended into manhattan after a rebuild. They were also proposing lighter weight cars to run on both the Myrtle below Broadway and the remains of The third Ave EL above 149 ST. The upgrade of both structures, along with newer cars and more modern signalling and stations would have gone a long way toward providing decent transit service to both areas, where today there is none. I also would have been relativly cheap.
I fondly remember riding in the summer, on one of the cross seats with the window open 5 inches from the bottom. You heard the rail joint sounds and the motors on those IRT composite trucks. Who needed speed ? It was a slow, but enjoyably quaint ride.
I did ride on the very last train that left Bridge-Jay Sts. on the solemn night. The train had to be 100% railfans, something like a rolling funeral. Ahh sweet memories !
Bill "Newkirk"
I (sadly) missed that ride. I was in DC covering gasbags in congress for WBAI that day. :(
It sounds just like "The Last Lex" in 1950. I guess the big difference was that they used gate cars for that trip.
It's more than we got now....for that type of service ,you have to ride the LIRR from Flatbush, or take the F...AND WHO WANTS TO RIDE THE F THAT LONG?
I used to ride the Fulton-Lex from Grant Ave to Eastern Pkwy, reverse direction, and take the Lexington Ave train out to Crescent St. This was a round-about trip but I loved to ride those gate cars.
These trips were caused by after school dentist appts so they were about 5 PM, and I normally could not even find a seat on the Lex from Eastern Pkwy to Crescent St. That just gave me an excuse to stand on a platform between cars.
The Standards to Jamaica were a lot more crowded after Oct 13th, 1950.
the renovation the Myrtle line received was a piece of steel rod from one side structure to the next ,with short ones in between...
This was done for the El south of Bway ,also...
So why is it gone,but the Queens upper still stands?
North of Broadway, what the current M line uses, was COMPLETELY rebuilt in 1915, just like Broadway was. South of Broadway it was not rebuilt.
That being said though, if the unrebuilt 1885 (or 1888) Fulton St portion of what is the J now was able to handle the heavier equipment right into the 1980's, why was the Myrtle el quote-unquote "too weak" to handle it?
IINM, the R12's (heavy subway-grade equipment) ran on the 3rd Ave el also, which I believe was also an unimproved elevated structure too in many spots.
Which helps prove, though in a roundabout way, that an elevated transit line is not necessarily a bad influence on the surrounding area.
An el is a two edged sword. On one hand it darkens the street, is very loud and allows peeping toms an excellent view into third floor windows. On the other hand it provides free advertising for the many stores along the line, and a ready source of customers.
The main problem with the Myrtle El, was that it served as a shuttle with transfers required at both ends, neither of which were particularly convenient. IIRC the Bridge-Jay connection required a paper transfer, several flights of stairs and some walking. The connection at Broadway was a single flight of stairs but you connected with the J or M which required doubling back to Canal St. and another change to go uptown. Of course there was the KK as an option between 1967 and 1969, but it never attracted much ridership. (I did get to ride it once on a visit in the early 1970s.)
The lossof the Brooklyn Bridge connection doomed the Myrtle El to second class status, along with its branch via Lexington. It is amazing that it lasted as long as it did in this state.
Not knowing the geography of downtown Brooklyn very well, I have this question:
Could the Myrtle El have been connected into the subway system at or near Bridge-Jay? (assuming the structure could be updated to handle the equipment end so forth)
Original el type work is still standing between Fulton st and Jamaica ave[I believe].......
Also, thats quite a tract without a station...why is that?
Also, thats quite a tract without a station...why is that?
That's because the original Cypress Hills station terminal was over Crescent St, perpendicular to Jamaica Ave before the Jamaica Ave Dual Contracts extension was built around 1918. At that point they moved the Cypress Hills station over Jamaica Ave on the "new" section over Jamaica Ave, and abandoned and removed the original Cypress Hills terminal station over Crescent St.
Many of the IND second system (most of which was never built) was to replace many older IRT and BMT lines. The Broadway El (as well as the northern Myrtle that the M uses) was directly targeted for extinction in the IND second System.
That being said, the Myrtle El was not really replaced by the G. The G line does not serve most of the people that were served by the Myrtle El. Myrtle-Jamaica riders have no connection to the G line (even though the G crosses under the Broadway El at Union St). M and J riders would need to get off and take the L to Lorimer St to even get the G. In the IND's defense though, the IND second system would have replace the Broadway El, tied into the Jamaica el, and replaced the northern Myrtle el with subway, thus connecting to the IND system, thus alleiviating the loss. But unfortunately WWII put an end to the IND's second system.
use to visit some fam at Norwood station...[you know,when the platform was WOOD]
THE WHOLE DAMN EL WOULD SHAKE AND BAKE when the train came in!
It still does it !
The 'replacement' is slip-shod and already needs a rehabilitation.
Regardless, it still could have required substantially larger land acquisition and excavation work in the area of Myrtle Avenue and Jay Street. Given the amount of financing available at the time, this might not have been possible.
The Silver corrugated-looking trains with blue doors usually ran on the B and there never was a roll sign saying W 4 St. It was just blank, often the white part that signifies "End of roll sign, stop rolling". The old IND R1-9 ran on the KK to 57 St.
The KK was introduced on 7/1/68, the MJ was discontinued in October 1969.
Chris: Don't forget the regular "M". Those were very good days. If you stood at the north end of the Dekalb Avenue Station of the Fourth Avenue Line you could observe the following during the rush hour. B,D,N,NX,QB,QJ,RJ and RR. You had to know your alphabet in those days.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Vengeance: It seems like the "J" was trying to take over the system.
We had the JJ,MJ,QJ and RJ all running at the same time.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The QJ replaced the 15,but I don't see how this could be...the 1967/early 68 version of this line only ran during the rush hour/midday/evenings untill 7-45 pm.The JJ ran nights and weekends on the old 15 route[168 st Jamaica to Broad st,what the J/Z does now]
The KK was suppose to be the same as the JJ from Jamaica.But it was used for 6th ave along with the morning layups from Metropolitan ave[was suppose to be MM BUT THIS WAS DROPPED]
The RJ was the weirdest...only a certain number of trips before and during the start of QJ service [about 5 -6 tph I think]...
the Eastern lines was chopped down to nothing during the latter years.
Although not always, our good friends that currently call the Eastern Division home also showed up on the route....
Even these babies showed up on the KK, and yes, the KK was always intended for the BMT, not IND.
"--nice shot. But underneath KK on the route designation, there's "Nassau Street." Did going through Essex/Delancey qualify the KK as a "Nassau Street" train?"
The car in the picture is using the orginal R-27 rollsign which carried a "KK Nassau Street Local" reading. If the R-27's (and the R-30 and R-30A's as well) had been assinged to the Eastern Section instead of the Southern Section of the BMT they would have carried that reading when assigned to the #14 Broadway-Brooklyn Local. Once the KK 6 Avenue-Broadway-Brooklyn Local began operating in July 1968 they simply used the old sign. It took quite a while before all the cars were re-equipted with new rollsigns.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry, RedbirdR33
Considering the amount of underground construction in that area a connection to Montague would make some sense, possibly going underground well before Bridge-Jay to pass under all of the other tunnels under Jay and Flatbush Av. Off peak trips could have ended on the center track at Whitehall. Peak trips could have run up Broadway or looped back to Metropolitan via Nassau. Of course, knowing how dense the traffic was in that area of the BMT, something else would have suffered. The idea of tying into the Jay St. IND wouldn't make much sense, both due to the curves required and the lack of interest in the older els by the IND.
Gerry
Koi
Chris: The only common terminal to all #14 Broadway-Bkyln service was Canal Street. THe eastern terminals were Eastern Parkway,Crescent Street, Metropolitan Avenue (Myrtle Line, 111 Street, 168 Street-Jamaica,Atlantic Avenue and Rockaway Parkway.
This is the route that the orginal KK was intended to replace if the R-27's had ever been assigned to the Eastern Section.
The #15 primarily ran between 168 Sreet-Jamaica and Broad Street with a few put-ins and pull-outs between Eastern Parkway and Broad Street. There also were some very early am put-ins from Eastern Parkway and Alabama Avenue to 168 Street. The J and JJ would have been used on this route.
Larry, RedbirdR33
RushHourSardine: My response to Chris was a attepmt to simplify a very complicated schedule. As you state above the #14 did indeed have its western terminus at Canal Street. Its termini in Eastern Brooklyn where another matter. The TA of the period that you refer to 1961,1963,1964,1965 and 1966 give rather poor or imprecise information regarding not just the Broadway-Bklyn Local service but many of the other lines as well. The Broadway-Bkyln local service (hereafter refered to as #14) ran more or less as follows.
AM Rush: Westboud first three trains lv 111 St and run local to Canal 626-707AM, next "B" skip-stop service begins from 168 St from 708AM to 824AM, then from Atlantic Av 850AM to 946AM. There were also three put-ins from Canarsie 621AM- 651AM
AM Rush: Eastbound: service lvs Canal St local to 168 Street 658AM to 728AM, to Eastern Pkwy 738,748, to Canarsie 755AM, to Metropolitan Av (Myrtle) 804AM, to Atlantic Av 50AM to 912AM, to Eastern Pkwy 900AM and 923-1018AM.
PM Rush: Westbound: service begins from Eastern Pkwy from 305-343PM and also at 425PM, then from Atlantic Avenue 350-516PM, from Crescent St 521-612PM (four trains), overlaping with westbound service from Canarsie at 527-601PM (three trains),
PM Rush: Eastbound: Lv Canal St 330-446PM to Atlantic Av, 444PM to 612PM alternating to Crescent St and Canarsie, 635 and 644PM to Atlantic.
The TA maps of the period are woefully misleading regarding this service. They state that the Broadway Bklyn Local runs only during the pm rush between Canal St and Crescent St or Rockway Parkway.
The am rush service is listed as a "Jamaica Local" between 168 Street and Canal St with Skip-Stop service to Eastern Pkway. Since the skip-stop service only ran for about one hour and the #14 local service ran actually for three hours in the am.
Nowhere on the map does it tell you what stops are actually skipped in skip-stop service.
You seem to be a serious researcher of ancient subway routes. I have more detailed info to hand. If you like e-mail me at RedbirdR33@hotmail.com. IF you do not receive a reply from me in a day or two please post on sub-talk. My hotmail server seems to have a built in bias against radcons and anyone living on the wrong side of the 38th Parallel.
Larry,RedbirdR33
One oddity in this pic: Why are there holding lights on a spur track?
The date of that pic is approx. July 1967, pre Christie St. The arnines were still safely in the confines of the IND. Maybe some BMT Standards created that smoke ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I managed to see it many times,but not ride it....and my Dad was never assigned there.
Another piece of rail history I missed was the 3rd ave EL...I never went to the Bronx alone during those days and my Mom needed to go to Eastchester only....so it was the 2/5 trains she mostly rode with me in tow.....
All in all,I did ask a nunber of times to ride the old myrtle El,but hey always said no...I guess they didn't have a "reason" to ride...
David
Hence, the MTA when first established was the "Wholly Ronan Empire"!
-Chris
-Chris
If you haven't already been told, it was probably discontinued and demolished because it wasn't making enough money.
My family and I missed it once it was gone, because it was a great, convenient way to get from Ridgewood to downtown Brooklyn in about thirty minutes. A Ridgewood Times article of October 1969 or so said as much also. I probably rode the Myrtle el before I was born, inside my mother, while she was carrying me, on work or shopping trips to downtown Bklyn, in 1955. I last rode it in May 1969.
There were and are four bus lines between Ridgewood and downtown Bklyn : the B-26, 38, 52 and 54 (GP 38 Chris' "hell bus"), yet none were as fast as the Myrtle El. Why ? Traffic, passenger volume, frequent stops, probably.
john
Yet look at Williamsburg now. (Actually, I think the epicenter of the re-popularity of the area is actually Northside but it's close enough.) When I used to hang out there in the seventies it was a busy area, Broadway had plenty of pedestrians and there were a couple of movie houses and lots of stores, but you never saw many of those "artsy" types around. It was a working class area, all around. So now there's been an upward trend. Even with all the industrial-era trappings of the neighborhood.
Myrtle Avenue with an (upgraded) el would have been a grand conduit for the brownstoning wave to advance along. Brooklyn Heights to Broadway. Who knows? Maybe some of those old movie palaces might have been renovated, ala BAM. Anyway, the train (and city) fan in me thinks that it's just a natural, organic thing, an el passing along the rectangular alleys of the dense city blocks. It fits.
Hahahahaha!!! Thanks, you just gave me my laugh for the morning!....
The Myrtle el came down because the NYCTA had a general policy of removing elevateds that was continuous since the Board of Transportation took over the BMT and IRT in 1940. They got away with tearing down the Myrtle el because they realized they could get away with it (even they had planned to keep and re-equip it), there being no effective opposition.
Sorry, the answer is as simple as that. No rocket science to it at all.
Let's be thankful that community opposition helped prevent the closing of the Franklin Avenue Shuttle.
The Myrtle el is obviously still missed, one reason being it was the quickest way (30 minutes)from Ridgewood, Queens, to downtown Brooklyn.
There have been past threads on rebuilding the Myrtle el, either as light rail, or as subway, and connections with the J,M,Z at Myrtle-Bway, the G at Myrtle-Willoughby (Marcy and Myrtle), the lines under Flatbush Avenue, the A, C and F at Jay Street-Boro Hall.
If you haven't seen it yet or are interested in checking it out, go to Yahoo's LAUCH site: http://launch.yahoo.com and look for her "My Happy Ending" video (it it currently the top #1 video on the home page).
How the he11 am I supposed to know?????????? WTF! You ask a lot of unanswerable questions. Why don't you just wait for someone to post that they know the location?
til next time
Unfortately, information and arguments don't do much to shape the minds of those age 15 to 30, but image does. Seems like mass transit is on the right side of history.
Now, if we can get some of them to have a video of them actually riding the train!
By the way, I now have a question, and it may be obscure, but the footage inside the theater, does anyone familiar with the interior of the Commodore Theater know if that is indeed the Commodore theater? From the condition of the theater in the video, it looks to be abandoned, so was wondering if by chance anyone knew what theater that may be....just a thought
hah!
I was surveying in that area about a week ago. Building that had seen better days in, say, the 1880s, steel door with graffitti, some windows boarded up. Guess who lived there. A bunch of early 20 something white women a year or two out of college, or so it seemed. Not a place I would have felt comfortable in the early 1980s when I arrived in the city, and I felt comfortable in lots of places other people didn't.
What is going on in this town?
A combination of low crime rates and high prices in more established areas means that more adventurous types are going into marginal neoighborhoods in search of affordable housing. If the recent uptick in crime rates proves to be more than just a statistical anamoly, however, things may change.
I'd argue that the city is more integrated than in the 1980s. With crime down, Whites are more likely to move to Black or Latino neighborhoods. And when Black and Latinos move to White neighbors, Whites are less likely to flee. There are some exceptions to this, but those are my impressions.
Yeah is it kidna cool.
I recall in 1986, I had moved to the wife's territory in Brooklyn from the Bronx (there from Yonkers). You had Blacks and Whites from Midtown on the F, and Blacks and Whites from Downtown on the A/C. At Jay Street, all the Whites from Downtown moved over to the F, and all the Blacks from Midtown moved over to the A/C.
That movement isn't that clear anymore. And Blacks and Whites are passe. You've got Yuppies and Hasidm and Russians and Gays and Lesbians and , West Indians and South Asians and Chinese and Israelis and Palestinans and Africans and every kind of Latino etc etc etc.
But speaking as one who has lived elsewhere, all is not golden. New York may be open with race and ethnicity, but it's worse off than much of the Sunbelt on class. Remember, pre-1950 Republicans were the party of snobs, Democrats the party of bigots. Post 1950, Republicans are the party of bigots, but the Democrats are the party of snobs. And NYC is full of Democrats, right?
http://www.Avril-Lavigne.com/video.html
(Real, Windows Player or QuickTime)
The only scene not shot on or adjacent to Broadway was the cinema interior. This was shot in Harlem.
Glad you liked the video
The train is an image of departure and loss.
0:00-0:03: Avril running under the el.
0:10-0:11: under the el again.
1:46-1:48: train runs by the apartment window
1:53: camera pans up at track level. Model class of car apparent (R42)
1:58-1:59: train again running in the background (faintly visible)
2:35-2:37: she is leaving the theatre, under the el.
2:38-2:39: on the street running el again
3:00-3:02: on the rooftop, closeup of R42 passing by (appears to be a M on the rollsign)
3:18-3:19: R42 train passes by Avril
3:23-3:24: train passes again
3:25-3:26: R42 passes again
3:36-3:37: another train passes, but only the trucks and underbody equipment are visible
http://acm.jhu.edu/~sthurmovik/Railpics/06-24-04_CAMDEN_LINE_WAMATA_TRIP/Thumbnails.html
Here is a Breda at Huntingdon
Along with that bathroom everybody loves (BTW Oren, where is the video you got of this thing in operation?)
Photoban at DC Union?? HA! You just need to find the right vantage point. And to think that Philly will soon have it's own unsecurable parking garage right in the middle of PENN interlocking with glass stairways.
They seem to run a lot of trains on the Camden Line elephant style.
What might be the last 4-track B&O signal gantry in existance at HALETHORPE.
A newer install B&O CPL cantilever at CARROL
What you may have not noticed was when the picture was taken. The view from this ‘vantage point’ is somewhat different today then when it was taken.
Here is a more resent image taken from the same location
John
Otherwise, though, excellent MARC photos. And I have my version of the aforementioned Huntington toilet (Exeloo) video.
The Exeloo in Action (1.5 MB, WMV)
All in all, an excellent time at the Exeloo. This was Oren and Mike's first time seeing the Exeloo (Oren and I had visited it previously, but it was closed), but I had visited it before, first time last October 26 (that was a neat trip - three things at once, seeing Huntington for the first time, seeing the Exeloo for the first time, and seeing a rehab for the first time).
Still, though, enjoy the movie.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
I see two in this picture. There is another one south Camden Station around the curve west of Russell Street and M&T Bank Stadium.
John
It may have only three track running under it and three signal heads mounted on it but the gantry has the same distance between the towers as the ones with four tracks between the towers that are shown in the images you posted.
John
Mark
What going to be the real bitch is cutting in the new M Street crossover 1,255’ (382.52m) south of the existing location of the interlocking.
That will put the M Street crossover directly on top of the bridge over M Street NE.
John
Would be rather time-intensive to point the locos in opposing FL-9 directions. Besides, when one is taken off, the other is pointing in the right direction anyway.
that bathroom everybody loves
Can anyone say "Iron Maiden" . . . ?
-Chris
Bob
Regards,
Jimmy
Jimmy: I passed by there a few weeks ago on an NJT NECL train. The CNJ Station appears to be intact but the ex-CNJ right of way is sadly overgrown.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Larry, are you sure you're not confusing the CNJ Elizabeth station with Elizabethport? The CNJ Elizabeth station building underwent a major exterior rehab in the late '90s and looks quite nice. I don't know about the Elizabethport station as I'm not even exactly sure where it is/was located (the maps in Jersey City Westbound notwithstanding).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Your right. Sorry about the mixup.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The old CNJ yard usually has NS power. Never any Morristown & Erie power in there. There is also the intermodal terminal just south of Jersey Gardens Mall.
I have seen pictures elsewhere, but I do not remember seeing any pictures on nycsubways.org.
The quality of the books in that series ranges widely. Unfortunately, the volume on the Cincinnati Subway is on the mediocre-to-poor end of the spectrum. There's much better information on the web.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
A very tragic story but it illistrates how hard it is to climb back onto a platform as we discussed when that girl was hit in Queens trying to retrieve her cell phone. In this case it was a 6'3" college basketball player who was trying to cross from one platform to another.
R.I.P.
I just want to point out though, to all those who say high levels prevent people from crossing the tracks, well, apparently it's not true. I bet that if the line was still low, yeah, without a doubt he would've crossed, but he would've made it onto the platform. Still, LIRR didn't plan on anything like this happening, but I'm just making a point
NOT!~
When the tracks were on the ground and the platforms were low, there was a fence between the tracks to keep people from crossing them in the station. (Albeit in Merrick there *was* a mid platform crossover to the barbershop-newsstand.
But I remember those days... We used to kill about one person a month in Merrick, usually impatience at the crossing gate: running across as soon as the eastbound clears only to be killed by the westbound. Was very common. Wasn't much of a hue and cry about it either.
Elias
A very tragic story but it illistrates how hard it is to climb back onto a platform as we discussed when that girl was hit in Queens trying to retrieve her cell phone. In this case it was a 6'3" college basketball player who was trying to cross from one platform to another.
There's an infinite supply of stupids out there.
When the train sounds its first warning blast, it is 10 seconds away - under that kind of pressure he panicked and couldn't complete the pullup.
Was there room under the platform? Could he have rolled under it?
But this is Monday Morning Quarterbacking I'm doing here. Could have, would have, should have - the fact is there was a train coming up on him and he did the best he could.
Except that he should have followed his girlfriend using the authorized crossing, and then he would have lived.
I would say that a closer equivalent would be the upward portion of a dip.
I believe that both plaforms are clearly marked eastbound & westbound. Even if they weren't, these people were familiar with the area and most likely should have known which platform was the correct one. It's too bad that the jump from the roadbed to the platform looks alot easier from the platform than it does from the tracks.
On the main line, "wrong railing" is pretty common (at least it was when I was riding 3 years ago) - at the pm rush hour for example, express trains would use the east-bound track and local trains the westbound track to make stops at places like New Hyde Park and Merillon Av
I assume that Form D refers to a written order which then is relayed to dispatchers?? Are train crews then called by radio to tell them a train will be going in the opposite direction to signaling?
I forgot what the letter "D" in Form D actually refers to. I think it was mentioned in passing in one of my rules classes a few years back, but I don't think it was too interesting, otherwise I would have remembered. ;-)
However, while I do feel bad for the victim's family, can you say Darwin Award candidate?
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
But that is because all people are basically good. But a moment's inattention or stupidity. Who is to say?
But good people die every day.
Elias
A lot, if Kerry is elected. Vice Presidents traditionally have few official duties, so Edwards might be looking for some work on the side.
Nice to be compassionate.
For your claim to be supported, the following would have to be true:
1) The train had the capability of stopping in time at the earliest reasonable point where the engineer could have seen the man (the train was an express traveling at close to 60 mph and needed over a mile to stop even with immediate emergency braking). So this is false
2) The engineer failed to apply emergency brakes once he saw the man in the trackbed. This is also false.
3) The engineer was biased against blacks or other minorities and neglected to try to stop for that reason (do you have evidence that is true?)
To this we add that the man deliberately trespassed onto the tracks despite knowing that his actions were unlawful. His girlfriend knew that the safe thing to do was to use the crosswalk, which she did, and she made it across safely.
The conclusion is, therefore, that the man who died voluntarily chose to cross the tracks in an unsafe and unlawful manner and then could not lift himself out of danger. The evidence also clearly shows that the train engineer tried to buy some time by applying emergency brakes (the train could not possibly stop in time, but at least the engineer gave the victim a few more seconds to try to save himself).
So, unless you can show credible evidence to the contrary, you have nothing to support your claim. If anything, the engineer is a victim too - emotionally traumatized by the man's reckless and dangerous trespassing of the tracks. He endangered others on the train (who could have been injured by being thrown off balance or out of their seats due to the sudden braking).
Coming from you, I'll take it as a compliment. :0)
If you were driving the train, then what could you have done? [Keep in mind not even the emergency brake would stop the train unless it was running at 4MPH]
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
You can be stupid and live:
Daily News link
http://www.nydailynews.com/cgi-bin/email/send.cgi
Link here
Plunges 12
floors - & lives
BY KERRY BURKE and TONY SCLAFANI
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITERS
A frenzied fight between two women in an upper East Side luxury condo ended when one of them leaped from the 12th-story balcony with bite marks on her body, cops said.
The 30-year-old woman survived, despite jumping feetfirst off the E. 89th St. building and hitting two scaffolds on her way down, cops and witnesses said.
Otilla Cordero, who was conscious after the plunge, suffered a fractured skull, chin and shin and was taken to New York-Presbyterian Hospital in stable condition, cops said.
"When I looked up, I saw her body falling from the sky," said a witness who didn't want his name used. "She was still alive when EMS [Emergency Medical Service] put her in the ambulance. Her arms were still moving."
The drama unfolded about 5 p.m. at The Monarch, a 45-story building at Third Ave., when the tussle between Cordero and her 30-year-old friend spilled into the hallway, prompting neighbors to call building security.
Neighbors said the two were lovers in the midst of a breakup, and were biting and clawing at each other.
"She had threatened to jump if her lover left, and then she did," said Jeff Moss, 40, a personal trainer.
When cops came upstairs and Cordero's partner opened the door, Cordero went running for the balcony, a building worker told the Daily News.
Wearing black pants and a blouse, she landed on a sixth-story scaffold, then rolled off and fell onto a second-story scaffold, where she landed on coils of rubber cables that broke her fall, the worker said.
Firefighters, who already were on the scene because of an unfounded report of a fire, saw the plunge, then rescued her from the scaffold.
Edward Savran, a lawyer who lives in the apartment, denied the women were romantically linked and said Cordero's fall was an accident.
"One is my girlfriend and [Cordero] came to study with her," he said. "It was just a shoving match. People are making a big deal about nothing. It's unfortunate that she fell."
Originally published on July 14, 2004
Details aren't your forte.
I think you need to read the news story again. And rethink what you just posted. The man was ignorant and tried to cross over the tracks with an approaching express train running 60 mph. Now you try to stop a train on a dime at that speed. Working on a rail line myself, I follow this basic safety tip once found at railroad crossings:
Stop, Listen, and Look.
Jimmy
Stop, Listen, and Look."
I don't always believe in what I read, but judging by what Ron wrote, I can honestly say that the fault lies with the person who made an ignorant mistake of crossing a row of active traffic.
Bonus Question) What's the highest level of formal education you've completed? Critical thinking like yours is very rare these days.
I assume he was white since the majority of LIRR engineer's are WHITE
And what was the obstruction? The person on the tracks.
2) What is the field of vision for a locomotive engineer traveling at night at 60 MPH?
I can't say! I never drove a locomotive.
4) If the train was traveling at or below the MAS, how did he put the passenger's lives at risk?
He didn't! the assilant did by walking into a row.
Bonus Question) What's the highest level of formal education you've completed? Critical thinking like yours is very rare these days.
IRRELEVANT! But I'm not a train engineer.
After reading ron's response, I can clearly say the engineer wasn't at fault.
But I felt a need to give you the side of a person who loose their love one under these circumstances.
They drew attention to themselves by smoking pot in their comnpartment and somebody ratted them out and called the police.
KOIN-TV6, Portland, OR, courtesy Larry W. Grant
From what I gathered of the monorail, it runs between MGM Grand on the south to the Sahara Hotel on the north, just before the Stratosphere. It has approximately five stations in between these terminals. It is dual-tracked in that one rail heads south, and one rail heads north.
The rolling stock is strikingly similar to that of Disney World, with the running gear fitting snugly around the rail structure, and the ends sloped sharply and roundly from the base of the rail up to the roofline of the first and last cars of the consist. There are about three or four cars to a consist, and some trainsets are wrapped in hotel advertisements, but not others. The trainsets are painted in black.
*Inside Joke: Yes -- I did drink the Courvoisier on the Luxor/Mandalay Bay tram.
Still 'baby-sitting' us... :-)
Anyway, my first visit to City Hall was in November 1994, and I was "into" the subway a few years before that already, but I have to agree, there's nothing like the "first time". Stepping out there was like time stood still.
Welcome to the Criticize the Lax and Arbitrary Way SubTalk is Administered bulletin board at www.nycsubway.org. This board can be used for discussions of lax management techniques by webmasters of web-board systems worldwide. It is not limited solely to New York City topics, but please stick to criticism of the webmaster! Off-topic and harassing posts will probably never be removed at the discretion of the management. Enjoy! Please note! This site is not run by MTA New York City Transit!
i know what the PDF schedules from the MTA website say, but i've heard anecdotally from several people i know that there can be up to 15-minute headways at times.
i'm thinking about moving to near that line, so i want to do my research beforehand....
thanks!
David
This would both save money and draw more people out of thier cars.
I know tons of people who travel into the city to hang out on weekends who end op driving in to avoid 20 min headways at night
Rush Hours, each line is every 7 minutes, so every 3-4 minutes at express stations and 7 minutes on the Q local stops.
Middays and evenings: Every 10 minutes for each line, and 5 minutes at express stations.
B stops running after 9:30 PM weeknights, so from this point forward, I am talking only about the Q line. It runs every 10 minutes until 11 PM, 12 minutes from 11-12 AM and every 20 minutes from 12:30 AM to 5:30 AM
Saturdays: Every 8 minutes until 7 PM, 7-10 PM is every 10 minutes and 10 PM-12 midnight is every 12 minutes.
Sundays: Every 8 minutes, then after 7-8 PM, Q trains run every 12 minutes. From 6 AM to 8 AM it's about every 10-12 minutes.
The B does what the D use to do,except it's local on CPW...
Send a Nassau st service there or the W THERE ..SOMETHING..
At least with another local service,it won't seem like forever waiting for a train....
S/B, I believe that unless there is some irregular problem with the local train, an express behind it cannot bypass it at Parkside, and leave Church before giving the passengers from the local a chance to transfer. Anyway, it should be that they meet at Kings Hwy. This splits the line into two seemingly equal parts:
AM N/B: 1) Kings Hwy, all areas south, two-thirds of Newkirk, and Church, and half of Prospect Pk, 7th, Atlantic, and DeKalb; these would take the express
2) All of Ave M, Ave J, Ave H, Cortelyou, Beverley, Parkside, a third of: Newkirk, and Church, and the other half of: Prospect Pk, 7th, Atlantic, and DeKalb.
This is based on ideal circumstances, that the trains are exactly on schedule, with equal time between the express and the local north of Prospect Park, and that people of stations north of Kings Hwy have faith that it does not make sense to pass up a local for an express.
PM S/B, it's pretty much the same thing. Now, this was simpler when both Brighton trains went to the same place. Now that the local and express have different routings north of DeKalb, anybody who would have a more convenient ride via 6th or Bway would probably use that train whether it is local or express in Brooklyn. You can't transfer to the D or N because they bypass DeKalb putting them out of the picture.
So right now, I stand open to criticism only regarding having the Brighton Local and Express connecting at Kings Hwy.
i guess 8-10 minute headways aren't so bad, and 20 minutes is what you'll get all over the system overnight.
i'm just thinking about that 2AM saturday morning ride back into brooklyn...
Service is unbalanced reverse peak. The B runs at a 6 TPH headway leaving BPB for the first 2 hours in the AM (6 AM to 8 AM roughly) then there's 7 TPH until 9 AM. I believe that the Q in Brooklyn reverse peak never runs at more than a 7 TPH headway. This is why I said this service "blows" in a previous post.
David
David
David
Thanks.
: ) Elias
(If you didn't get it - trust me, you don't want to...)
Koi
But nothing worked better for me than some subway dogs, some mysterious orange fluids and a cookie, then back in the cab. Heh.
And YES, I definitely DO gotta get out more often - no question there. As a geese, I'd do Nedicks, but when I WORKED there and couldn't leave the property (heh) Nedicks was my MAINLINE ... after all, with a 6 hour layup for ME every day at Stillwell, one got MIGHTY tired of sugar candy and frigging NATHANS ... and that pizza place just outside the entrance REALLY sucked. (was pleased to have gone to a place near the original with heyPaul on Christmas 2001 and it wasn't all that bad) ... still ... NEDICKS was the reason why you carried a bag with you in the cab. of course, thanks to modern technology, you can no do 5 round trips in a pair of Depends without being the LEAST bit concerned about terrorists in that woodpile. :)
I s'pose what I'm saying is when you're "performing the people's duties" you have to be CAREFUL about what you eat - "comfort breaks" were ALWAYS a sign of weakness requiring disciplinary whips and chains, even if you were doubled over in pain staring at your floor heater as you operated. :(
If we HAVE an economy again (I keep hearing rumblings, but my banking account is still in the minus numbers) I'll take you up on it. Last time I came to the city (on CHRISTMAS) an amusingly impressive number of subtalkers abandoned their families to come out and play with Bingbong and I ... I suspect everybody had fun - even Unca Heypaul wasn't moody that day. :)
Got me some HANDLE time later that night on the 143's. Beat Paturkey and the press droids to that train by two weeks! Some traditions need to be maintained. Heh. But yeah, if it's like it used to be, then COUNT ME IN! I always LIKED Nedicks, the mustard and the funky rolls. The dogs, feh ... I'd still rather eat genuine STREET DOGGY if I'm not operating - and while Sabretts (even if they moved to Joisey) was my fave, if "G.O." is still in business, that would be an acceptable MTA substitute.
Anybody remember "YANKEE FRANKEE" though? Now THEM was dogs. (grin)
This was before McDonald's invaded NYC.
Subway food was ... well ... worth outlawing. :)
No need to go to Atlantic City - those machines were a real gamble. Sometimes you got nothing, other times they could pay off big.
I wonder if many operating people watch what they eat, so as to avoid gastro-intestinal problems while they're working. That would be a major concern of mine.
I'm sure folks will back me up on these words ... comfort breaks are a more serious crime than leaving powdered donuts on the seat. :)
That one is gone.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
That's funny. I've been through that area quite a few times over the last year and haven't seen that Nedicks yet. I guess I'll have to look more carefully next time I go through that area. I wonder how much their hot dogs are now.
Koi
Koi
Nedicks is back in Penn Station and has been for about a year.
Well coming from a civilized place - THE BRONX - I would not have known that.
Supposedly the current Nedicks in NYP.-From google.
Old nedicks logo.Riese Resturant Homepage
Nedicks (unknown location). From google.
Mmmmm Mmmmmm.
-Chris
Peace,
ANDEE
When you type 45 WPM as I do, sometimes you are bound to make mistakes.
A cheep date would be "Reservations for two at the Orange Room".
til next time
sell us the flying redbird!!!
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
The biggest issue with this is that there is no way the (N) train can provide for all the needs of the Flushing Lion. The capacity is not there.
Now, AFTER the Myrtly-Fifth Avenue Subway is built (It will also run on Northern Blvd), then much of the crush loading of the (7) will be transferd to the much faster 5th Avenue trains, and the remaining needs of the Fluching Lion *could* be accomodated by the (N) train.
Yet, I would STILL not send the (7) to astoria, but would break it free as it comes out of the tunnel, let it follow the LIE for a bid, making stops at some new HUGE panr-and-Ride facilities before following the Lower Montauk to Woodhaven Blvd and yet another huge Park-and-Ride facility served by the Interboro Parkway.
Elias
This could be part of the new station the LIRR is building to include the subway and buses.
The removal of the El over Queens plaza would be a good idea,as long as there is a even better replacement for it....
What station is this?
R-32.
R-32.
That would be a big problem; the platform.... this isn't the railroad you know, that gap is unacceptable.
R-32.
R-32.
what if the flushing route was jointly used to fit 68's and 62's
BTW...Even an 11 car IRT station is still not sufficient enough for the B division equipment.
R-32.
avid
8 68's = 600 ft
8 slants/m's= 480 ft
10 slants/m's= 600 ft
11 62a's= 561
12 62a's=612
R-32.
R-32.
R-32.
Then there's the curves out of Times Square which are quite sharp in their own rite.
I am very aware of the sharp curves in the City Hall area, and was quite shocked that 75 footers are able to negotiate that serpentine subway without breaking it's back. You should be aware that that's an extreme situation. The BMT at that point in Manhattan has to duck and dodge several other existing subway lines (even breaking into the Beech pneumatic subway).
Then there are the switches which are tighter in most places. All this is to say nothing of clearances.
R-32.
Well I know that silly!! I was merely making a reference to the turn [location] itself so that you know what I'm talking about. That said, the turn is quite sharp. I don't know if it's the sharpest but it's sharp nonetheless. Also, it may actually be more 90 degrees change of course, because - if you remember - there is a transition to consolidate the upper track over the lower track; then enter the turn. That might be done to clear the building whose corner comes close to the train; I'm not sure.
R-32.
R-32.
It doesn't matter why they're there -- the fact is that 75-foot equipment can handle them, so 75-foot equipment would have no problems with Queensboro Plaza either.
....Sufficiently long I meant.
R-32.
It would not be impossible to operate both A- and B-trains simultaneously on the Flushing Line using gap fillers. The idea was serious proposed at the beginning of joint BMT-IRT operation, but the BMT wouldn't pay for it.
If you want to see a truly horrendous gap, you should come to England and get off a Watford to Brighton train at Clapham Junction (IIRC it's platform 17). It's such a hazard that it's announced on the train and they employ blokes to stand on the platform and yell "mind the gap". I'm actually surprised no-one's fallen down it. (Cue: evidence of someone falling between the train and the platform at Lavender Hill convergence-divergence).
R-32.
R-32.
That's not true. That's just not true. Even though, indeed, the BMT had trackage rights, that does not historically mean the Flushing swithces were made accordingly. That does not obviate the matter. If you recall, the 60th St. BMT came to an end at Queens Plaza - stub end tracks. The only proper BMT equipment to ply the Flushing rails were the Q units; which were IRT sized - I hope you know. They could get away with it. Otherwise there was an obvious reason the standards and such didn't touch the Flushing tracks ( and I don't mean politics ). The 60th St. tracks came to a stub end just past the station.
I see what you're trying to say - being logical about this. However the logic is unrealistic nonetheless.
If you are observant, you might notice that the switches north of Pacific Street are about as sharp as anything the IRT has to offer and they are navigated by 75 ft equipment with little difficulty and no modification to the switches.
The magic word here is 'about'. If you were observant you'd notice that those switches are not that sharp even if they look so. Perspective has a remarkable way of foreshortening them - especially when viewed from certain angles - just like an upcoming curve on a road.
Look, please try to understand that the IRT is the IRT for a reason - and it's more than just 8'9" over the sills. the 36' truck centres - not wheelbase - allows IRT cars to navigate much sharper transitions than B division cars. Sixty foot cars have a 44'7" truck centres, and 75 footers have 54' truck centres. As such, you can't put a square peg in a round hole.
About the only set of switches capable of handling B size equiptment, are the ones you're looking at on the uppper level East of the station.
R-32.
R-32.
I'm not saying that has any relevance to conditions today, but realize
that the Flushing line, as well as the Lex (north of 42 St), the
Pelham line, etc. were all constructed in anticipation of an eventual
unification of the system and adoption of the larger car standard.
It just didn't work out that way.
The 60th St. tracks came to a stub end just past the station.
True until 1924, when the trail track was extended railroad north
towards 33 St station on the Flushing line. There was a 4th track
which terminated just before 33 St. Look carefully, remnants
of this structure are still there today
Re turnouts: you are quite correct that the wheelbase of an
individual truck has no bearing on how low of a switch number
it can traverse. The distance between truck centers, the
total body length, and the construction of the car itself limit
the turn radius. A #3.5 turnout has an effective radius in
the neighborhood of 125', which is the specified minimum radius
for all B division equipment. I don't believe any of these are
used on the mainline. A #4 is considered quite severe for mainline
use. Certainly none of the switches on the Flushing line are
worse than #6. So, a B division train could go over them, at least
if that's all there were. However, since no B division train has
ever operated over the Flushing line, "clearance creep" has taken
place and there may be wayside structures which would be clipped
by the overhang of larger cars. Not to mention the obvious
platform issues.
I thought that must have been the case. I've noticed for years that the shoe beams on B division equipment are displaced lower than the IRT. Hence they have different shoe beam brackets. I used to draw subway cars years ago. Having to pay attention to detail, I noticed that.
Well IRT equipment has no problem getting aroud the B division with the lower, farther third rail. They do it all the time.
R-32.
I am aware of that, I have seen it for many years and wondered what was responsible for it. Anytime I see a tandem set of naked beams I assume there was a track; like the Fulton St. el at Broadway Junction.
Even though you are a knowledgeable man, you tell me that the Flushing line was built with the B division in mind [I don't believe it]. Now you're telling me that the Lex North of 42nd St. was also; no way do I believe that. Anyone who has ridden an express between the columns of an express station should notice the remarkable difference in width between columns on the A and B divisions. It's there; and it's not your eyes fooling with you ( as I used to think). The fact that they thought it necessary to have a wider colunm space - which means wider track centres - obviates the issue.
R-32.
Should have brought this up a decade ago, before all the work rebuilding the Flushing Line started.
avid
Except then it would make sense that the N go to Queens Boulevard (and also the Q, as it couldn't terminate at 57/7, the F would then have to be cut back to 57/6). The R and W trains would then run to Flushing (and could use Corona Yard). The 7 train would be left yardless, which is where there's a big problem with this whole silly idea).
If flushing needs more service, they need to replace the el with a 4 track tunnel or increase lirr service/cut it's price to get less people taking the bus to the subway.
The astoria line has had enough bad drama over the last 20-30 years with the garbage R service, the temporary B reroute that terminated at QP during non rush hours (what a waste), the idiotic bus replacement on many summer weekends a few years back, and tmost recently the 'w express' fiasco.
We have plenty of riders, and have had enough headaches for one lifetime. Leave us out of flushings line's problems.
Bingo!
I don't think that Roosevelt Avenue is wide enough for a 4 track wide subway, so they should build two levels of two tracks. While they're at it, build a 34th Street crosstown subway.
If the MTA has another $20+ billion sitting around that they don't need
They should build a 23rd Street crosstown that runs along Greenpoint Avenue until it merges into the Roosevelt Avenue line. Also, a 50th Street crosstown.
At Flushing, build a lower level to accomodate in bound trains. Then diverge the four lines so that you have:
* a line running along Roosevelt Avenue (local), Parsons Boulevard, and Willets Point Boulevard to outside Fort Totten
* a line running to College Point, and to the Bronx along White Plains Road to Pelham Parkway
* a line running along Roosevelt Avenue, Northern Boulevard, and along Cloverdale Boulevard to Queensboro Community College
* a line running along Roosevelt Avenue, Northern Boulevard, and Bell Boulevard to outside Fort Totten
The transfer at Queensboro Plaza is very easy and nobody can argue with a straight face that millions of dollars would be better spent on cutting down a 25-foot walk at most than on countless other projects that don't have an alternative called foot power.
What the Flushing line actually needs:
learning how to avoid merging delays into Queensboro Plaza during the AM rush
extending the line eastward or at least adding tail tracks at Main St so that all local trains can terminate at Main St or points east
ensuring that any new Manhattan terminal is at least as efficent as Times Sq
figuring out how to run more tph
Eventually capacity in Queens must increase with the construction of new lines. The Queens Blvd express doesn't seem like it can handle any more tph. Unless signal improvements will significantly increase capacity then even if successful they will only provide temporary relief.
Queens, which was supposed to have rail service almost everywhere under the Second System plan ended up with two very crowded lines in northern and central Queens. The Archer Av subway probably unintetionally added more J riders to the E than E to J. I'm not sure of why this should be the case. Maybe it's fear of crime or the infrequency of service or the feeling that J service creeps along. But I digress.
Grand conversion plans while theoretically interesting are not anything most riders would stand for when the only alternative during retrofitting would be bus service or dumping Flushing line riders on the Queens Blvd line, which we know to have loads of capacity. Maybe at some point in the distant future when Flushing line service could be replaced by other parallel lines talk of retrofitting could begin in earnest. It's premature now.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/12/national/12RAILready.html?hp
second option is to make road one way and use long gates.
You can win.
You can lose.
NEVER, NEVER tie.
Fellow Employees:
Over the weekend, articles that appeared in the New York Times and
other newspapers made a number of serious allegations against our
company related to grade crossing accidents. While much of the
factual information in these stories is accurate, the tone of the
stories creates the impression of a company that does not follow the
rules.
That is not the kind of company we are. I want to address the charges
made in the stories and to provide all of you with some information
that was omitted from the articles. I want you to know that I am
personally committed to ensuring the highest degree of ethical
behavior at all levels of our company.
During the course of the reporter's investigation, we learned that
some of our reporting and compliance processes were not as thorough as
we expect. When we learned of these breakdowns in our processes, we
took immediate corrective actions. Union Pacific's policy is to be
100 percent compliant with all of the many regulations that apply to
railroads.
Many of the allegations concern destruction of evidence after crossing
accidents. Union Pacific's policy is clear: We do not destroy
information or evidence needed for legal proceedings. A few years
ago, the courts began to expand the types of materials they expect us
to retain in grade crossing accidents. In October 2002, we instituted
major changes to our processes to ensure that this wider range of
materials is kept. Additionally, we will initiate a program to
install video cameras on locomotives to ensure accurate recording of
crossing incidents.
As the article acknowledges, many of its conclusions are based on
statements by individuals who are hired to testify against the company
in lawsuits. In each instance, there is another side of the story.
For example, the article implies that we cut vegetation after a recent
Arkansas accident to make the crossing look better, but we carefully
photographed the crossing to document the scene before cutting the
vegetation.
The article stated that notification of fatalities at crossings to the
National Response Center was inconsistent. While we report
consistently and properly to the Federal Railroad Administration and
state and local authorities, we failed, in several dozen instances, to
comply with a specific requirement that we notify the NRC by phone.
We have changed our procedures to ensure that proper notification is
made in the future. We have initiated a further, comprehensive audit
of all reporting requirements to identify and correct any other
shortcomings.
No one wants to avoid grade-crossing accidents more than we do.
Emotionally, they take a severe toll on our colleagues in train
service, who usually cannot stop their train in time to avoid
collisions, and the rest of us, who feel the human tragedies that so
often accompany these accidents. We all feel a sense of tragedy and
loss when these accidents occur.
Union Pacific has a comprehensive grade crossing safety program that
includes system vegetation control, maintenance of grade crossing
warnings, inspection and maintenance of track and crossing panels,
maintenance of locomotive horns and lights, and training and
certification of train crews who operate the trains. We also posted an
800 number on all crossings for immediate response to stalled cars or
other safety risks.
Additionally, Union Pacific funds public education campaigns and many
Union Pacific employees voluntarily contribute thousands of hours to
making safety presentations to the driving public. We also sponsor
safety programs in cooperation with police departments to enhance law
enforcement on crossings where there have been violations.
As a result, grade crossing accidents on Union Pacific declined 84%,
from 3,049 to 489, between 1976 and 2003. The annual number of
fatalities from rail-highway incidents on Union Pacific for the same
period decreased 74% from 261 to 68. This improvement occurred while
highway traffic increased 80 percent.
I want you all to remember that we work for a great company with a
great history and a bright future of service to our nation. I
personally want to thank each of you for your dedication.
--Dick Davidson
Yes. Well, it *would* be inappropriate to comment on a fact under litigation.
Though it wound not be inappropriate for management to go out and remove a suspect peice of equipment for inspection and testing.
And track crews do work 24 thours a day. (sort-of, I guess...)
Elias
Wondered about that boiler since 1983..
#3 West End Jeff
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
- No W (City Hall LL is full of OOS consists, and one was OOS at Whitehall
- Northbound N/Q trains were running thru the Montague St. tunnel.
This was happening when I was going thru the area (11:30)
They don't make rails like they used to. Didn't this problem foul up the north side a couple of weeks back?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=58010&item=5108072888&rd=1
It's be cheaper to fly to New York and steal one yourself!
Mark
: )
Mark
Mark
-Robert King
Mark
-Robert King
I don't think that anyone would be that gullible - even on ebay.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
Mark
--Mark
Original Posting
U have been reminded.
Your pal,
Fred
I missed it THAT time... hell no missing this 1.
I set the VCR, but somehow forgot to turn on the TV! I recording nothing but 2 hours worth of static.
I'll just shell out the $ and get the DVD one of these days...
Time to set the VCR ...
I need to get with the times...
where can I find a good DVR FOR DVD?
Did I miss anything? :)
"Welcome to the Criticize the Lax and Arbitrary Way SubTalk is Administered bulletin board at www.nycsubway.org. This board can be used for discussions of lax management techniques by webmasters of web-board systems worldwide. It is not limited solely to New York City topics, but please stick to criticism of the webmaster! Off-topic and harassing posts will probably never be removed at the discretion of the management. Enjoy! Please note! This site is not run by MTA New York City Transit!"
The on topic bit:
The train now standing at platform 1 is the fast train out of here.
I wish everyone all the best.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Anti-semitism is France's (and most of Europe's) dirty little secret. And it's not just "outraged Muslim youths".
The racist right in European countries tends to hate *both* Jews and Muslims. As the report noted, France has the highest proportion of both these religious groups of any European country. Given their dislike for each other as well, it's an explosive situation, which Chirac is rightly trying to calm.
He's made it worse by both offending Muslims with his showing of religious symbols in school laws, then offending Jews by becoming the cheif Arab cheerleader in Western Europe.
I am WAY off-topic, here.
Mark
Does anybody have any track maps or know where u can get track maps for the LIRR. I dont know if anybody has them becuase it is required for the engineering test final but I would love to find some track maps of the LIRR..
DYLAN
Does anybody have any track maps or know where u can get track maps for METRONORTH. I dont know if anybody has them becuase it is required for the engineering test final but I would love to find some track maps of the METRONORTH..
DYLAN
but if you find anything of interest, please send me a link.
They have to deadhead trains because they need them out in the burbs for a 2nd run.
Nothing specific...
SAS
The TA and the TWU have an arbitration hearing this Friday which will be decided on the same day. If the TA wins, they get their 1 year restriction on the L for CBTC and the C/R's jobs on the L become "temporary jobs" amongst other things. And the pick will continue on (which started Monday).
If the TWU wins, then the TA will have to eliminate the aforementioned items and the pick will start again from the #1 man.
Robert
is it the same thing as the Keystone?
Dylan
New Jersey taxpayers subsidize the operation between NYP and Trenton. It would be inappropriate for us to subsidize service between TRE and PHL.
Yeah... I hear you, but I ain't buyin your lion!
NJT subsidises people (Jersyites, mind you) going to NEW YORK, so why not also serve those Jersyites going to Phili?
In other words NJ to NYP or NJ to PHI ought to be subsidised by NJ, but through tickets PHI to NYP might be sold at AMTK Prices. Maybe AMTK pays NJT to honor their tickets, eh?
Fares Fair!
Elias
NJ would be subsidizing Pennsylvanians going to New York.
I guess I just don't understand the whole point. It seems like what is happening is that the Clocker is being eliminated for all practical purposes. If that's the case, why not just eliminate it officially instead of playing games?
Mark
The Clockers are FULL of NJ passengers holding NJT tickets. It would be less 'spensive for NTJ to tun the service themselves than to pay AMTK to do it.
More importantly, however, are the tunnel and platform slots at NYP that the Clockers are using. NJT wants those slots for itself!
If that's the case, why not just eliminate it officially instead of playing games?
The trains are NOT empty and cannot be eliminated, but AMTK does not need to run them. They are already doing NJT business, NJT might as well run them.
Elias
Figures that I saw recently said that NJT pays Amtrak $12 million per year to honor NJT commuter tickets on the Clockers and that NJT would spend $6 million per year to operate the service themselves.
Mark
Not at all!
NJT subsidises traffic to and from New Jersey!
They could run the train from Phili to NYP and still not sell PHI to NYP tickets, but rather honor AMTK tickets for that service.
Could some smart ass buy a ticket from Phili to Trenton, and then another from Trenton to NYP. Yes they could. But you don't sell them in Phili, so they would have to get off the train at Trenton to do it, and that would drop them back an interval. (unless of course they pay the on-train-surcharge)
Mark
Because you cannot eliminate trains that are full of commuters.
OK: Why not just change the name of the train?
Because it is a known service with a Brand Name and with brand name appeal.
(Railroads, and Rail fans are bid on tradition, you know)
Besides, cutting an intercity route is not a trivial matter.
Elias
NJT already runs express and super-express trains. My guess is that when they get the extra slots into NY Penn (which is what this is all about really) they will reorganize the timetable to make more sense (like train A624 next to 3826), or at least that’s my hope!
If you want to use MNRR, go with the Husdon line, it has the best sights of the Hudson River and you can see several bridges overhead (Tappan Zee to Mid-Hudson Bridges.)
If LIRR and you have about $30 to spare, go with the 3 hour Montauk run. If not, then the Port Washington or Long Beach lines are excellent choices.
--Mark
Plus, since you'll have to change at Jamaica anyway going west you can check out the AirTrain at Jamaica (and for $5 railfan the entire system).
CG
I think it is $10. You have pay $5 at entrance and again $5.00 to exit.
-Chris
-Chris
CG
1. MN Hudson line(even better in the fall)
2. LIRR Greenport line between Ronkonkoma and Greenport(may cost too much)
3. LIRR Port Washington line(a couple really nice spots, plus views of Shea and Arthur Ash stadiums)
Also, the MN New Haven line and LIRR Montauk lines may also be nice rides. I've ridden both, but don't really remember much as far as views go. The Montauk is probably very nice once you get past East Hampton, and the ride of the Shinnecock Canal, though very short, is pretty nice. I think the New Haven line run most of the Long Island Sound shore.....
If you had more money, I'd say maybe go MN New Haven to Bridgeport->Ferry to Port Jefferson->LIRR Port Jefferson to NYC
or
MN New Haven to New Haven->SLE to New London->Ferry to Orient Point->bus to Greenport->LIRR Greenport to NYC
The Port Jeff line is probably nice too between Port Jeff and Huntington, but otherwise, it's ok.
Just a few suggestions there for ya
There is a very limited schedule to Greenport, so careful planning is a must. In addition, you'd have to take the main line to Ronkonkoma, which is rather dull and uninteresting.
Also, the MN New Haven line and LIRR Montauk lines may also be nice rides.
Tyhe New Haven line runs mainly through populated areas and has a gritty urban feel in places. It's not an uninteresting line, but the Hudson line is better.
I hear the bus between Riverhead and Smithtown is very scenic.
As the Ronkonkoma line goes, so goes America. Maybe it just me but I find it endlessly fascinating.
The line's diverse, that's true, but people who are looking for a scenic ride usually have something else in mind. You'l probably have to ride the Ronkonkoma line a number of times to fully appreciate all it has to offer. Somebody who's only going to be making a single ride probably would find better choices elsewhere.
or
MN New Haven to New Haven->SLE to New London->Ferry to Orient Point->bus to Greenport->LIRR Greenport to NYC
The first of these options, using the Bridgeport-Pt. Jefferson ferry, is definitely a good idea, especially on a nice summer day. I'm not sure if the Orient Point option is do-able in a single day.
I've never ridden either of the 2 ferries. I'd love to take a lil trip some time.
Only problem with PJ ferry, it's about a mile uphill to the LIRR station. Still, it's probably worth it.
I suggest doing the trip in the opposite direction (go to Port Jeff first, ferry to Bridgeport then MNRR to GCT), though. Westbound service from Port Jeff has a huge gap in service once the PM rush kicks in (train at 4:05, next train 8:36). Bridgeport service is much more frequent. Going this way you can time your departure from Penn, then pretty much be assured of decent connections the rest of the way.
CG
Actually, the steep uphill stretch between the ferry and the train station probably isn't more than a quarter-mile long, the rest of the distance being level or only slightly steep. It's really no big deal for most people, it's not like you're trekking in the Himalayas. Besides, you can always make the LIRR-ferry-MN circuit in a counterclockwise direction, that way you'll walk downhill from the LIRR station to the ferry.
- The old, abandoned Brooklyn Waterworks building
- A free-standing front facade of an old church (but the three other sides are missing)
- A few lakes
- An old car on top of a building
- Lots of wrecked-car auto body shops
- A duck farm
- A glimpse inside a lot of people's backyards
My guess for the least crowded part of the day would be late morning/early afternoon on a weekday. It's hard to say for the weekend, because of people going to/from the beach areas.
OTOH, give yourself about 2 to 2:30 each way for the trip. It's about $19.60 roundtrip ($14.75 off-peak), and IMHO, well worth it.
Good luck, no answer has to be in the form of a question.
tho it could very well be City Hall (some centennial surprise)
Congrats toro, well done.
If we go via Orient Point, then we'll take Suffolk Transit to Greenport, maybe visit the RMLI museum there, if time(most likely won't be), LIRR Greenport line to RMLI in Riverhead. If not, then LIRR Greenport line to NYP(I'll probably be gettin off at Mineola).
If via Montauk, bus to LIRR Montauk, LIRR Montauk line to NYP.
So....who's in? Which would you rather do?
CG
Hmmmmm...maybe MN New Haven to Bridgeport, ferry to PJ, bus to Riverhead, spend time at RMLI Riverhead, LIRR Greenport to NYP.
LIRR used to sponsor such weekend trips. Do they still do so.
I remember my Father taking me on such a trip back in the early 60s.
Elias
As for the ferry, spend the extra 5 bucks and ride the Sea-Jet.. I'd recommend a reservation.
Your pal,
Fred
Thanks for the fare info on Amtrak. I may re-route via Bridgeport-PJ ferry, or I'll just tkae Amtrak from NYP to New London if it aint too expensive.
You can catch Amtrak in Bridgeport too; it's a short hike from the ferry terminal there.
Your pal,
Fred
Across from the 165 st bus terminal....
Any takers? I have a Pay Pal account.
Thanks George.
>>transitpics.com EZmaps Section
-Chris
aem7
AEM7
There is something to be said for the philosophy of "little and often" - the basic Glasgow to Edinburgh service is now every fifteen minutes, so you don't need ten-car trains. The height and width are small because of the small UK loading gauge, of course. Size apart, how do they suck, compared with (say) MNR or LIRR? What's basically wrong with them? My main grouse about 158s is their long dwell times, because they have only one narrow door at each end of the car. The 170s cured that, with two double-leaf doors at one-third and two-thirds of the way along the car.
I agree, except that I am not sure the philosophy applies for the Edinburgh-Glasgow line beyond every 30 mins. Track capacity has become a major issue and while a lot more people have been using the trains I am not convinced that the fully allocated cost is justified. But neither are many other schemes on the rails.
The height and width are small because of the small UK loading gauge, of course.
I think I began to take certain things about the U.S. system for granted (e.g. when on a high platform, there is no step when boarding the train); I also got used to the large seats. Actually the 170 seats sucked from day 1; I remember commenting about it when I worked there.
My main grouse about 158s is their long dwell times, because they have only one narrow door at each end of the car.
They are not transit cars; they were intended for intercity services!
The 170s cured that, with two double-leaf doors at one-third and two-thirds of the way along the car.
True, at the expense of a more transit-car like feel and less seating. That said, the kind of service the 170s are running here (Edinburgh-Aberdeen via all local stops; Edinburgh-Inverness via most local stops) are really transit markets, and 170s were the right choice. Pity about the engine noise, the step up from platform, and just generally being a small car.
AEM7
Before aem7 can chime in, the Scots are absolutely not English. They are British, which they will grudgingly admit when pushed.
Ditto the Welsh, and Northern Irish.
People living outside of England abhor the synecdoche English=>British.
Some Englishmen, however, have revelled in it. See here.
Me: I’m a mutt. Scots mother, English father!
Flanders and Swann *were* satirists, though very gentle ones - they were actually poking fun at the superior airs of the English. (Donald Swann's ancestry was actually partly from Soviet Central Asia - in one of their songs he talks about his Uncle Mohammed. He also sings the hippopotamus song in Russian at one point.)
How long you gonna be there for?
I wonder where the sample shot was taken?
-Robert King
ANd of course you had your camera on hand to take a picture of the camera, they shoudl market that. :)
mike
-Robert King
Does anyone have an idea of the age of this old deck?
This locomotive was built in the 20's and the photo is from 1930. I'd guess that the playing cards would feature the newest rolling stock on the line at that time, so probably late 20's or so.
Your pal,
Fred
I must have a very old deck of cards here! The "Yankee Clipper" must have been a crack passenger train of the time.
Thanks for your help, Fred!
I've read that the 'Yankee Clipper' and the 'Merchant's Limited' were the premiere trains that the NYNHH ran. What that means I don't know, but I'd guess they were more than just commuter trains.
Your pal,
Fred
This is at the station at Westerly, RI, probably the most ornate station on the line.
Your pal,
Fred
Your pal,
Fred
Your pal,
Fred
He wonders if Bob Allard is still the ticket agent at Westerly, do you know?
Thanks so much for the pictures, he really enjoyed them.
Your pal,
Fred
Gerry
Your pal,
Fred
No they weren't. The Yankee Clipper left South Sta/GCT at 1 PM and arrived at GCT/South Sta at 5:15. The Merchants Limited also took 4 1/4 hours to go between South Sta and Grand Central, leaving both stations at 5:00 (or was it 5:30?), back in the days of the NY, NY & H RR.
I believe the Comets managed to cut travel time down to 3 3/4 hours but they were long gone when I took both the Clipper and the Merchants in the late 50's and early 60's.
But what about the regular fare? In 1930 the parlor car surcharge was $1.50 but added to that was the regular fare of $8.26.
In the 1930s and 1940s they were all reserved, all parlor trains, with diners, and in later years added grill cars and coaches.
In 1951, one could stand at Union Station in New Haven and witness steam, diesel and electric locomotives pulling trains. Amazing!
Your pal,
Fred
Still, a bottle of Sammy for $2.25 tain't too bad.
Your pal,
Fred
First, the tail end of the Yankee Clipper
Then, the Merchants' Limited
Next time I'm there I'll get better photos; Today I had a train to catch!
Your pal,
Fred
No "E" and "V" service.
Thanks.
Yes
And it would be...?
I think they wanted it to be sort of random and not to have it be another foamer trip yet with the regular passengers weirded out with no price tag attached, donation or not.
Commissioner Enright went to the wreck to direct the police, in their efforts to find the names of the men who
were running the train. They found none of the officials of the transit company were able to give them the
names because the regular men were not in their places on account of the strike. The police reported to the
Commissioner that officials of the B.R.T and employees as well had showed disinclination to aid in
discovering the names of the motorman and guards.
By direction of the Commissioner and District Attorney Lewis, Acting Captain Jon Coughlin, in command of
the Sixth Branch Detective Bureau, confined the efforts of his men last night to search for the motorman and
other employees.
From:
http://www.nycsubway.org/bmt/brighton/malbone01.html
Koi
Koi
Koi
-RJM
Koi
Jimmy
Try again
"Pic 2: Dyckman St"
Correct
"Pic 3: 72 St and Broadway"
Nope
Koi
1) 191 St 1/9 line
3) Atlantic Ave/Flatbush Ave(the new sky light)
Jimmy
"3) Atlantic Ave/Flatbush Ave(the new sky light)"
Nope
Koi
Pic #2: Dycknam St, 1/9 line
Pic #3: Atlantic Avenue, 2/3/4/5/B/D/M/N/Q/R station?
SAS
"Pic #3: Atlantic Avenue, 2/3/4/5/B/D/M/N/Q/R station?"
Try again
Koi
The 3rd pic reminds me of the Gun Hill Rd area.
The third pic wasn't taken near the Gun Hill Rd. area.
Koi
For the third one, I'm thinking one of the deep-tunnel stations, maybe 191st. I know the IND stations in the area have elaborate station houses at grade, so perhaps the same is true on the IRT (although I haven't seen them myself).
Correct. That was the first time I've seen pigeons in a station that is not right near a tunnel exit/entrance to the outside.
"For the third one, I'm thinking one of the deep-tunnel stations, maybe 191st. I know the IND stations in the area have elaborate station houses at grade, so perhaps the same is true on the IRT (although I haven't seen them myself)."
Try again
Koi
Koi
Koi
just think about what it's doing to you guts....
http://forum.nyctba.com/showthread.php?t=941
As useful as subtalk is, there aren't a LOT of people using BVE here. The other place is their nest. :)
Reason I suggest this is that some of the routes are tricky, and the files might not always end up where they belong. A lot of the older packages had that problem. After a while, you get to know the layout and know that certain things belong under "routes" and other things belong under "train" and you learn to move them when you get errors. My concern is that I doubt Unca Dave wants this to turn into a BVE support site since there's already a really good one at that place.
I used to link people to a site called "BVE Helper" that had a wonderfully concise (in ENGLISH) tutorial. Alas, AOL being AOL closed it down because it ate too much bandwidth.
This thread inspired me to get BVE and it ROCKS! Beats msts by a long shot!
-Chris
All the things the TA never permitted. Heh.
Can you help?
-Chris
Check to see if there is some other program running that is using your system's audio.
Some programs that may cause this problem are CD players, jukebox programs,
RealPlayer, or Windows Media Player.
If there are no other programs running, then there may be a problem with DirectX or a
DirectX-related setting that needs to be changed. Click here to go to the Microsoft DirectX
Support Center.
-Chris
BTW, I am going to add a link to your site on my site, transitpics.com. Could u do the same?
-Chris
-Chris
Odds are it goes via the main line.
I took a train the other way a few weeks ago, Montauk to LIC, and it made stops in Mineola and Hicksville. So it went over the main line.
I don't know why your train made an unscheduled stop at Babylon, it was not supposed to.
He didn't say that it did, only that it ran non-stop to Babylon (meaning it could have taken either routing). Non-Stop to westhampton includes non-stop through Babylon.
Oh well, so much for semantics!
Elias : )
It leaves Hunterspoint Ave at 4:06 and Jamaica at 4:25. The next stop is Westhampton at 5:39. That's 74 minutes running time, compared to the typical 113 minutes on the express to Babylon and then local thereafter trip. That's a pretty impressive time savings.
Interesting note about the Cannonball -- it is slower east of Westhampton on Fridays than it is on Thursdays. This is because it is so long on the Friday run that it has to stop at each station twice. Once for the front of the train and once for the back.
CG
It leaves Hunterspoint Ave at 4:06 and Jamaica at 4:25. The next stop is Westhampton at 5:39. That's 74 minutes running time, compared to the typical 113 minutes on the express to Babylon and then local thereafter trip. That's a pretty impressive time savings.
Interesting note about the Cannonball -- it is slower east of Westhampton on Fridays than it is on Thursdays. This is because it is so long on the Friday run that it has to stop at each station twice. Once for the front of the train and once for the back.
CG
(Sorry for the duplicate post. I mistakenly posted this as a reply to another post...)
Any others. I also looked at UPenn, but I probably would have no chance of getting in.
BTW, have you considered specializing in procurement/materiel/logistics? There are industry certifications for that. That's useful - and part of MTA's incredible improvement in the 1980s was a totally new procurement system.
what department you apply to can have a lot to do with it, too.
http://www.iit.edu/~ce/undergraduate_programs.html
Has great profs too. And Chicago is the rail capital.
Matt
I'd probably really like Chicago, especially with the els and all. I have enough fun with it in train sim, lol.
Is there an airport closer to Urbana? Springfield has one, right(my mom will fly, I don't know yet, I may decide to fly, but I may just take the bus or train).
Good luck with your search, it can be a hard choice.
Matt
Hmmmmm.....railsale for September....you got any details on it?
They have updated the list and it is no longer on it, however that seems to be one of the more popular sales, so check back and see if it comes up again soon. Regular fares should be fairly reasonable if booked well in advance. It might be a very long ride as it is on average slower than driving, which would be about 14 hours (depending on if you drive like you're in a switcher or an Acela). The scheduled time for the Three Rivers (train nos. 40 and 41) appears to be about 19 to 20 hours.
Matt
Thanks for telling me where the railsale link was. For some reason, I could never find it.
Matt
Also, consider what traditional areas of engineering you enjoy that are applicable to transportation (civil, electrical, mechanical, environmental, computer). Do you want to join a transit authority, or do you see yourself working for Kawasaki or Bombardier or any of the many suppliers (such as companies designing and building brakes, power systems, communication systems, signaling)?
Attend a trade show sponsored by the American Public Transit Association or a similar show and visit all the company exhibits and booths to see what they do.
As far as exactly what I want to do....well...basically, it's just be able to run a transit system, or some sort of route planning. A lot of the courses I've been looking at really get down into how to do possible ridership stats, route planning, and almost every detail it seems relating to the operation of a transit system. This is exactly what I want.
Now I've worked in the service industry and have a B.S. it it, and I could've choosen focus tracks in things like airline management etc. I'm not going to see any engineers from Lockheed running United anytime soon. If this is the case, kiss United goodbye. What's similiar to airlines? ANything that's an intangible service. Trains, buses, hotels, etc...
Trump runs a lot of buildings, was he an electrical engineer?
I'm sorry to sound pessimistic, but i haven't seen other examples of people wanting to run a business that's in the intangibles going to grab engineering degree's. If I wanted to run the FLorida HSR I would've had the airline track.
Maybe you're looking at city planning or something similiar and how to fit that in, or you want to design cool new LRT's and other intricate things. But the designers up in Detriot making ugly SUV's aren't becoming chairmen of any toll authority's soon.
And I think that's where some people on this board think they're gonna be heading. It's up to the rest of us to tell the engineers if what they design is impractical, stupid, or expensive, because that part isn't their job, and us, the people running whatever it is their building for have to watch out. If we don't, the whole system is a living hell to operate with some screwed up design.
And if you think transportation engineering isn't what I should be majoring in, than what do you think is the correct course? City planning and civil engineering I think are more revolved around constructing road systems, as well as buildings and stuff like that, deciding what goes where. I just want to do what I do best, plan out routes, and hopefully, run my own company.
If you ultimately want to run your own company, make sure you mix in a few courses in accounting, finance and law.
Managers can come from all backgrounds. Lee Iacocca, one of Ford's most effective managers and who later ran Chrysler, studied engineering before he switched, while at Ford, to sales. Jack Welch started out as a plastics manufacturing process specialist at GE and then started climbing the ranks. John Reed, recently retired CEO from Citicorp, started as an engineer, and so was his chief of credit card operations.
On the other hand, an accountant can also rise to run a company or an agency. Faye Moore (SEPTA's chief) came from a finance background.
You get the picture?
If "NIMBYkiller" likes engineering/math/science, that's where he should start. It will give him analytical skills which are quite transferable. He can also take business courses, take part-time jobs in retail/customer service to gain experience. I did that while studying computer programming and before going to medical school, and learned a lot doing it.
Here a joke I heard from the contractor I use to work with when I use to build $1,000,000 custom homes about architects.
"An architect can design an ass hole, but they can’t make it $h%t."
John
Basically, you need to be well rounded. Get some business mgmt, accounting in tehre somewhere. It would be nice if you could get some hospitality classes in there as a minor, then I would say you'd be perfect. Especially with theme park mgmt(laugh now but i'll get the point at the end). IMO, hospitality/tourism is just service industry. If Richard Branson wanted someone to run his system, i'd say a hotel or airlines guy could do the job. It's all the same, different terminology. One you have what's your break-even occupancy, the other it's called load factor(airlines and trains).
The example from Ron was all working their way up in some tangible industry. That's fine, though I believe tangibles are easier than intangibles(the results different everytime). But the message is, well roundedness. Just because you know how to convert volts to amps and whatnot doens't mean you know how to keep people happy and moving.
I never took the airlines management classes, I was never interested in flying. But Just from schooling alone, i know basic engineering stuff, volts, lighting life safety, etc. how to read blueprints. Pitfalls, etc. Queneing theories, which directions people are more inclined to walk and which way people naturally turn, how to keep the foottraffic moving and where YOU want them to go(from theme park). Very important if you have people waiting. Most bus stops and even train stops will fail in the business world. business, accounting, etc. And of course gen ed. Heck, I even know basic law(as pertaining to the industry too). Wow that one comes in handy.
Basically, being in the real world now, i'm glad i did this and not really general business, I think i can handle anything now.
what I'm saying is, hopefully you'll get this in your core classes. Running something takes a little more than figuring out how much AC or dranage you need(osmething every designer outside florida fails at in florida).
Plus, i'm gonna add in there, with transit, you'll probably be on the same level as a university president. This guys whole job basically is to kiss the government and alumni's ass for money. :)
Of course on the flipside, if you just design a new line or even a station, that's super awesome. You'll work will be around longer than you will!
And if I were you, I would put down active participation on this board as a resume item.
I've personally had experience with both their Civil Engineering & Geography programs (Both my degrees are in Geography, though I started as a CivE major).
Below is a link overviewing related courses (at the senior/grad-level) from the Transportation Engineering website:
http://www.civil.umd.edu/programs/transportation/index.html#ITM-153
Another thing that may be of benefit is ShuttleUM. You could get some practical experience in how a transit agency runs during the school year (I believe NewLookTerrapin, who's primarily on BusTalk, could provide a more detailed explanation)
Great school.
I had the privilege of wrking with one of the deans to set up an internet training program for CDC personnel.
I thought it would be transportation planning that would be the best major for me(based on looking at the courses involved with it), but I think I might take a course in either civil engineering or city planning.
Oh, BTW, Congrats!
ANd Nimby, don't take you're final decision based on if someone else liked something or a certain teacher. If there's one thing I learned real quick, it's that if someone hates a certain teacher or fails a class, I end up loving that class and getting an A. And vice versa happened to me a bunch of times. I learned to not weigh other people opinions in my case that heavy. It takes practice and trail and error, but you'll win out in the end when you get it figured out. :)
Mark
--Acela
www.nyctba.com
1) Other than the G to coney what other oddball routings are taking place this weekend
2) What are some safe neighborhoods to explore outside on Manhattan?
3) How long would a round trip to the Rockaways take if I visit both branches?
4) If I take pictures what I the odds that I will get ticketed?
5) What some good photo spots both in the system and out of the system?
6) Do Mets games usually sell out? I would like to go to the game Friday night to finally see how fenway compares to another big league stadium and would prefer not to pay service charges for an advanced purchase.
7) What is the Quickest way to get from PATH WTC Shea stadium?
8) What is the bet route to get from Shea stadium to PATH WTC (this will be between 10 and midnight?
Thanks for any advice and if anyone is planing on railfanning this Friday I would love to meet up with you.
Check http://www.mta.info and click on Service Advisories to learn of all the planned service changes for the weekend.
2) What are some safe neighborhoods to explore outside on Manhattan?
A better question is, "What neighborhoods are unsafe to explore out of Manhattan?" There are more safe neighborhoods than unsafe ones. But during the day, you shouldn't have a problem anywhere.
4) If I take pictures what I the odds that I will get ticketed?
Probably depends on where you're taking pictures. But currently, it is LEGAL to take pictures and movies, so don't let the police bully you around. There is, however, a ban on photography in the PATH system.
5) What some good photo spots both in the system and out of the system?
-Queensboro Plaza on the (N)(W) and (7)
6) Do Mets games usually sell out? I would like to go to the game Friday night to finally see how fenway compares to another big league stadium and would prefer not to pay service charges for an advanced purchase.
Mets games never sell out (except on opening day, and during Subway Series). When you get to Shea, you can just walk up to the ticket window and get yourself a nice seat. I've never had a problem getting good seats on the day of the game.
7) What is the Quickest way to get from PATH WTC Shea stadium?
From the WTC, walk over to the (E) World Trade Center station. Once downstairs, follow the signs to get to the (2) and (3) Park Place station (the two stations are connected underground). Take the uptown (2) or (3) to Times Square - 42 Street. Once there, transfer to the <7>, which is the express 7 to Queens in the afternoons and evenings. You can take that to the Willets Point - Shea Stadium stop.
OR:
Since you'll already be at the first stop of the (E) train, get on that, and take it to Roosevelt Avenue - Jackson Heights in Queens. Once there, go upstairs and transfer to a Flushing-bound (7) train. You'll be at Shea before you know it.
8) What is the bet route to get from Shea stadium to PATH WTC (this will be between 10 and midnight?
Take a Manhattan-bound (7) to 74 Street - Broadway, and transfer to a Manhattan-bound (E). Take the (E) to the last stop, and you'll be back at the WTC.
The thing is if would be a lot cheaper for me to pay the ticket if I got one than come down from Boston again to appeal.
Then on Saturday, come to the NY Transit Museum in Brooklyn. Stan Fischler is giving a talk at 12:30 (link here).
I'll be at both events... and maybe chasing the BU cars on Saturday.
7. Take the E to NYP, and then take the LIRR Port Washington line to Shea Stadium. If it's a game day, then I'm almost certain that every PW train stops at Shea, but to be safe, just double check the boards when you get to NYP. You'll see the big board over the ticket/info booths. Look for Shea Stadium and it should list the time of the next train stopping there, and as it gets closer to that time, it will list the track, well, it should.
8. Just do #7 in reverse. LIRR westbound to NYP(make sure it's westbound, both directions stop on the same platform, the westbound train will almost definately be on the side facing away from the yard and other platforms), E to WTC.
Also, if the terminal is near, you may also be able to take a ferry to Jersey City, but PATH is definately cheaper, and probably will be faster.
ROFLMAO
WTC 2 Shea via Path to WTC > (1) North to Times Sqare thence (7) east to Shea.
The Reverse wroks 27/7
PATH to 33 works just as good too, (1), (2), or (3) will take you to 42nd for the (7).
I always bought Yankee tickets in advance at Ticketron, and was unaware of any surcharge, but that was back in the early 80xs.
Elias
2) Alot of safe neighborhoods outside of Manhattan. Say where you'd like to go and we can say which are better than others.
3) Say about 2 hours to visit both sides of the Rockaways.
4) Just be a little discreet about taking pictures. No tripod and no flash and nothing should happen. Besides the cops, be careful of other people that might take your camera.
5) Answer to that question would probably require a whole posting. Too many places to just briefly mention.
6) I don't think Met games generally sell out. But don't expect an empty house either.
7)& 8) From PATH/WTC take the E train to Roosevelt Ave and change for the 7 to Willet's Point. Coming back after the game is the same way. 7 trains should be somewhat crowded getting to 74 Street. E service should be ok getting back to PATH/WTC. You may want to consider taking the F train from Roosevelt to 34/6 for the PATH back to NJ. Just a gut feeling there will be more people at 34/6 than at WTC/Chambers St.
To get to that 33rd St. station, as stated, take the F at Roosevelt Avenue to 34 St. or the D or F at 5th Avenue to 34 St. from the 7 Train (or the N/R/Q from Times Square to 34th), if you want to stay outdoors on the 7 Line all the way into Manhattan.
I've heard the area around the 7 train interesting would you recommend these? If so what areas would be particularly interesting?
As for the area around the 7, I never got off any stops becides the tunnel stops, QueensBoro Plaza (which you might not want to visit-the area, not the station), Willets Point which has nothing to see except for the Stadium, and Main St which is like a Mini-China Town.
(Hey look ma, lets just stare up at the concrete elevated structure and forget about the real tourist sites). :P
2: It's one solid chunk over metered parking areas.
3: It's the only one like it in NYC. Paris is too far away to visit on the same day.
But, unless you're on a bus riding past it, it's not really worth getting off and running downstairs to see. (Plug for the Q32 from Madison Avenue over the 59th St. Bridge into Queens.)
--------
For another interesting area, I'd say get Spanish CDs and DVDS and an enchilada at the 74-B'way station.
Also, Main St. is not merely a mini-Chinatown. It is a major Chinese and Korean shopping and residential district for Chinese and Koreans. The huge supermarkets and department stores make it extra interesting. And really good Chinese restaurants. Only E. Broadway on the F is as interesting and non-touristy.
#6 train to Pelham Bay Park, bus connection to City Island for great seafood.
LIRR to Bayside or Douglaston. Check out the golf course on Northern Blvd, the Riedel Wildflower Meadow, and the Alley Pond Environmental Center. Bring your bike on the train; you can ride your bike from Bayside on a dedicated bikeway along Flushing Bay westbound.
E, F trains to Forest Hills to check out a movie or eat Israeli/Middle Eastern Food or Corona Park/Flushing Meadows.
#7 train or LIRR PW line to the stadiums and to great Indian/Chinese/Vietnamese food in downtown Flushing.
2. Anyplace, except the L line stations at Atlantic Ave. Sutter, Livonia, New Lots, 3 line east of Utica Ave, 6 line from 138th st 149th st.
3. About 2.5 hours, go to Far Rockaway branch first, come back to Broad Channel for the second. For an interesting way back, get out at Rockaway Park, turn right and walk to the bus stop across from the diner on the left corner (The Duane Reade is next to the diner, across Newport Ave). Take the Q35 bus to Flatbush/Nostrand Aves and change for the 2 train there.
4. You run at your own risk. Remember photography IS legal as long as you stay in public areas, do not use flash or obstruct traffic. Comply with what a police officer or MTA employee says, even if you don't like what they are saying.
5. Some of the best photo spots are actually outside the system. Go to Park Ave and East 97th st and you will see plenty of Metro North trains in and out of the Park Ave portal. Hunterspoint Ave at street level is also great for #7 trains, DO NOT ENTER THE LIRR STATION AFTER IT CLOSES AT 6:30 PM ON FRIDAY.
Another good photospot: The Riedel Wildflower Meadow off Northern Blvd. east of 223 St. You can see the LIRR trains cross the grassland heading for Douglaston or coming back from Douglaston. Try it in the morning or late afternoon and see what kinds of effects the sun can give you. Just stay in the meadow portion close to Northern Blvd (don't approach the track area).
I sent in for the trip on the 17th a while age haven't gotten my ticket yet though.
Thanks for the advice
http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/27269.htm
Bravo! Push the body off to the side with the yellow wooden board and keep the trains rolling by!
Pelham 1:23 been teaching me differently....
Altho, the same can apparently occur from fluid contacting the rail.
Of course - this being Subtalk we can speculate for ever so let me suggest that when Walter Mathau suprised Robert Shaw in the tunnel it scared Shaw so much, he pee's himself. The stream of urine ran down both legs making both shoes conductive. Hmmmmmm - that'll work.
another reason monies wasted on S/A should be redirected to more useful purposes
So what is the difference between security personnel and Station Agents? The former is nowhere to be found while the S/A will instantly call for help. What good are employees watching video terminals?
No, he didn't have a camera on him, so no one considered this "suspicious"
Good one, Unca Bill. Maybe the northbound ran over Gephardt. :)
The TTC annouced that disciplinary action was taken against 4 workers involved in the accident.
Passengers in Toronto will be relieved to know that
the TTC has "decided that, from now on, when there's a work train that is going to be routed into the yard, it will not be routed into the yard when trains are going out"
It is unclear if there will be any change in procedure when a work train is being routed out of the yard when trains are being routed in. Come to think of it, there are two other cases of work and passenger train movements that are also unchanged.
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1089670219936&call_pageid=968350130169&col=969483202845&tacodalogin=no"
-Robert King
http://www.nynewsday.com/news/local/transportation/nyc-sub0713,0,6510393,print.story?coll=nyc-manheadlines-trans
http://www.nynewsday.com/news/local/queens/nyc-sub0714,0,5159178,print.story?coll=nyc-manheadlines-queens
I'm intrigued that the problems have been happening in Queens along Queens Boulevard between Queensboro Plaza and Queens Plaza stations. It is no coincidence that "Queens" appears several times. I am very close to discovering how this fact is creating problems in the signal system.
It's more like: the old tower was local control, simple, mechanical,
reliable but maintenance intensive
The new tower is remote and relies on complicated electronics to
transmit its commands into the field. There are local "maintainers'
panels" in the field which can be used directly to give lineups
if communication with the master tower is lost, which _should_ be
a rare thing. However, for whatever reason, the maintainers' panels
on the Queens Blvd job are very rudimentary. They have no track
indications which makes it very difficult to actually use them
to run service.
I assumed he went to the end of the platform and then walked along the catwalk away from the station, seeking some privacy.
The first article I saw in the Post detailed his movements.
http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/27269.htm
These are my favorites:
-Chris
Story Here
Interesting fellow. Was already out on bond.
Oh Well, somebody's gotta be dumb.
Elias
Story Here
Interesting fellow. Was already out on bond.
Oh Well, somebody's gotta be dumb.
Elias
Chao-Hwa
wayne
Chao-Hwa
http://www.railfanwindow.com/gallery/album141
yippee all the slants will move to jamacia soon
til next time
til next time
3420-3645-3530-3741-3418-3863-3831-3382-3617-3776
Tickets WILL be available on the day of the excursions, so you don't have to worry if you didn't get a chance to mail for tickets yet (as I am one of those lazy people. lol).
Dave, please update the information in your Upcoming Events calendar. Thank you.
Can I bring my LION with me ???
David: As always you're the go-to guys for the right information.
Thanks for the post.
Larry, RedbirdR33
That means some of you will get them today, others may get them soon.
See ya on the trips!
-Chris
I was planning to attend the trip on the 25th, and was going to mail out my check today. Should I still do that, or should I just wait and pay on board?
I've done some of these trips before, but I've always paid on board...
Thanks for the help!
The difference is you save yourself 74 cents in postage if you performed the latter.
The 7/17, and 7/18 trips will generate hype for people to attend the 7/24 7/25 trips, thus making those tickets more popular. They stand a higher chance of selling out by the trip date.
and JUST as high a chance someone will make this very same WHERE ARE MY TICKETS post days prior to said event... 0:)
If so, then no, they ran thru to Ditmars. They were usually half empty in, while they bypassed crowded local stations full of irate looking passangers waiting for an N local.
-Broadway Buffer
This subway would have many benefits and features such as:
*Alleviating crowding on the Lex line.
*Offering tourists a convenient way to visit many popular areas, as well as JFK, all on one line.
*Breath new life into the Nassau Street line.
*Utilize existing entrances, so eminent domain will be less necessary.
*New stations on Central Park would be constructed like the City Hall station of the R & W lines; with an island platform, with platform level fare control, centered on the park side of Fifth Avenue.
The Manhattan stations will be:
*125th & Lex
*116th & 5th
*106th & 5th Museum of the City of New York - El Museo del Barrio
*96th & 5th Museum Mile
*86th & 5th Metropolitan Museum of Art - Guggenheim Museum
*72nd & 5th Frick Collection
*59th & 5th Grand Army Plaza (using the entrances for the BMT station)
*50th & 5th Rockefeller Center (new entrances, and connection to 53rd St. station)
*42nd & 5th New York Public Library - Bryant Park (using existing subway entrances of 7 train)
*34th & 5th Empire State Building (new entrances)
*23rd & 5th Madison Square (using existing entrances of BMT station)
*14th & 5th New School University (New Entrances)
*Washington Square Park - Greenwich Village - NYU (new entrances)
*Broadway - SoHo (using existing entrances of BMT station)
*Canal Street - Chinatown (using express tracks of Nassau line)
*City Hall (using express tracks of Nassau line)
*Fulton Street (new lower level platform, using existing entrances)
*Broad Street - Wall Street (new lower level platform, using existing entrances)
It would also be nice to see an above ground "NYC100" tourist bus that follows that route, using some old wing fishbowls gatherd from wherever they can be salvaged.
I have a Fifth Avenue Subway.
The LOCAL train runs non-stop from 60th Street to 116th Street, and then making all stations to 161st Street (Grand Concourse)
The EXPRESS train runs non-stop 60th Street to Bedford Bark Blvd, thence to CoOp City.
The NIMBYs along 5th Avenue do not want to be bothered with a subway line or the kinds of people that kind of thing would bring in, so the heck with them. It's deep and they will NEVER know that it is there.
My new lions do not connect with ANY existing subway. The cars are not compatible, nor to they even want to run on such a slow lion!
Trains from CoOp City make connections with the (5), (2), (4), (D) and (C) trains, then run non stop to 60th Street.
They make 42nd, 34th, Chambers, WTC, Wall, and then off to Brooklyn
making Brooklyn Center, and Jamaica before diverging to about four destinations out to the County Lion.
Liner Induction Motors, 100% Computer Control, 75 mph speeds.
Elias
Bonds are the proper method. An infrastructure such as this ought to be paid out over the life of the project. In fiduciary terms this would be about 50 years. Of course, unlike the BMT or the IRT the retirement of the bonds cannot be expected to be bourne by the farebox, so an annual levy on the taxpayers is appropriate. There will be land speculation along the route of the new lions, and certainly those investors need to be levied.
But then who pays for all of the roads that they are building? And the city streets? and the Water Mains?
Life, especially life in a city, it a communal effort of all of the people.
Why should a Farmer in North Dakota pay for your subway? Oh... wait a minute, isn't that where our financial support comes from to grow crops.
It is one country, better interstates in North Dakota help out the whole country, better subways in New York help air quality and save on peterolium resources.
It is one community people, from coast to coast. Can the extremes, right and left, and lets build the middle.
Elias
There *is* an aquaduct under parts of 5th Avenue, but do you have any idea how deep that thing is?
If I were to promote building a Fifth Avenue Subway ridding just on top of the bed rock (say 4-5 stories under ground) we would still clear that thing by a good 300' or more. Details.
Elias
The subway could always be constructed by tunneling, rather than cut and cover.
The bottom line will be political power. Today, this couldn't happen. If the SAS opens, and the Lex again becomes so crowded that the financial performance of the Midtown real estate industry is impaired, this could happen.
This is what I envision politically. The SAS will open, and crowding on the Lex will be reduced. By 2030, the SAS will be connected to the Bronx and to Brooklyn. Also, a line from Queens Blvd will connect to it via the 63rd street tunnel. Real estate in Manhattan will continue to develop, and the Lex will again get very crowded. If the SAS itself is very crowded, it will be converted to a 4 track subway. Anyway, a Fifth Avenue subway, after the SAS, is the most logical way to reduce crowding on the Lex. So, in the future, you will pit the residents of Fifth Avenue against the real estate industry. I vote with the real estate industry.
Someone once wrote that what oil is to Texas, real estate is to New York. Aside from Westway, the real estate industry almost always gets there way. And what about Westway? It happened in an era that followed awareness of the excesses of Robert Moses, and a mistrust of government courtesy of Watergate. We don't live in that era anymore. New York is once again getting bold with publics works projects.
I say that a Fifth Avenue subway gets built in 30-40 years, and I can't wait to ride it.
If a Fifth Avenue subway ever became something that was on the agen da of the MTA, I believe that entrances on the Park would face less opposition than entrances next to, or in, the Co-ops on Fifth.
Stu
Michael
Michael
Washington, DC
A poster in the Houston Street 1/9 station, uptown side, by the MVM's.
Anyway, I'll let you know the results.
Michael
Washington, DC
www.nps.gov/gois
Click on plan your visit. It lists tour and ferry times. It's a very limited schedule. Only two trips Tuesday-Thursday. The tour is free. The ferry is a nominal charge.
Michael
Washington, DC
By the way, note that while the tours are free you have to pay for the ferry to get there.
Someone has posted a number of photos on Wired New York: http://forums.wirednewyork.com/viewtopic.php?t=3172
www.govisland.org
They just let go 30% of thier musueme staff.
At one time there was a small railroad with a steam engine on the island designed for hauling some freight from the ferry terminal to wherever it went on the island.
I didn't bookmark the site, so I'm sorry I can't be more specific.
Eric reported that a particular R-40, which was the survivor of an accident that destroyed its mate several years ago and has been under repair for several years, is almost repaired. However, it reportedly will not go into service; instead, if the report is right, it will be sent to Randall's Island, where the Fire Department has a training facility. He noted that the lighting diffuser covers in the low ceiling area of this car are flat and (transparent) instead of grooved as on other R-40s, enabling one to see the fluorescent tubes.
Eric then went on to complain that the R-40 fleet seems to be deteriorating, citing door problems and several recent Brakes in Emergency (BIE) incidents, some of which involved trains he was operating.
David
New York Transit Museum - Nostalgia Train - The Train Before The Subway
Before there was a subway, New York City was served by elevated
trains. The Transit Museum's collection includes three beautifully
restored Brooklyn Union wooden elevated trains. To commemorate the
subways centennial we are bringing out these cars which have not been
on an official run since 1980. This special Transit Museum benefit
excursion will combine a ride on vintage R-9 cars from Columbus Circle
in Manhattan to the Transit Museum. From the Museum, passengers will
ride the R-9s to an elevated line where they will transfer to the BU's
(Brooklyn elevated trains) for a truly nostalgic ride to the
shore. Reservations and advance payment required. Capacity is limited
so book early. 718 694-1867. Adults $50, Children $20
Saturday and Sunday, September 18 and 19, 2004 AT 10 a.m.
New York Transit Museum - The Cavalcade Of Stars! Pageant In Motion
To thank our loyal Museum members on October 23 and 24 the Transit
Museum will be hosting this special "members only" event. Up to six
different vintage trains will run on the Brighton Line between the
Brighton Beach and Kings Highway stations. Only Museum members and new
members, will be allowed to ride the trains. Non-members and the
general public may view the pageant of vintage trains from stations
along the line, overpasses and the street. Valid current membership
and reservations required. Ride is free commensurate with level of
membership. To become a member call: 718 694-3451.
Where: Contact Museum
When: Saturday and Sunday, October 23 and 24, 2004 From 10 A.M. To 4 P.M.
This event operated by: New York Transit Museum
Information: 718-694-1600
Membership: 718-694-3451
New York Transit Museum - Catch Me If You Can! Vintage Train Rides
To thank the riding public, on Thursday and Friday, October 28 and 29,
between rush hours, we will be running vintage cars throughout the
system. Trains will operate in regular passenger service on different
lines. With a little bit of luck, and perfect timing, you'll be able
to get to your destination on a vintage subway car for the regular
price of a ride!
Where: ???
When: Thursday And Friday, October 28 And 29, 2004
This event operated by: New York Transit Museum
Information: 718-694-1600
Membership: 718-694-3451
New York Transit Museum - Exhibit - Centennial Celebration
An exhibition commemorating the 1904 opening of the IRT and key
moments in the subway's 100 year history. On view are unique and
exceptional artifacts and archival treasures from the subway
system. Highlights include sections of recently renovated vault lights
from City Hall, the flagship station of the IRT, and the silver-bladed
ceremonial shovel used to break ground for the subway in 1900. Works
in the exhibition are drawn from the collections of the New York
Transit Museum, the Museum of the City of New York, the New-York
Historical Society, and private collections. Centennial Celebration is
sponsored by Vollmer Associates, LLP, and Parsons Brinckerhoff.
When: September 14, 2004 - Spring 2005
Where: New York Transit Museum, Brooklyn Heights
This event operated by: New York Transit Museum
Information: 718-694-1600
Membership: 718-694-3451
American Museum of the Moving Image - Subway Centennial Film Festival
To celebrate the subway's centennial the American Museum of the Moving
Image, in partnership with MTA New York City Transit and the Transit
Museum, will screen a series of movies starring the subway. Other
shorts, documentaries, avant-garde shorts, and even a Seinfeld episode
will be shown. For additional information including film synopses,
credits, and running times please visit the Subway Centennial website
at www.mta.info (click on the centennial banner), call the American
Museum of the Moving Image at 718-784-0077, or visit its website: href="http://www.movingimage.us/">www.movingimage.us.
When: October 2 - 11, 2004
Where: American Museum of the Moving Image, 35th Avenue at 36th
Street, Astoria, Queens
New York Transit Museum - Exhibit - Subway Style: 100 Years of Architecture & Design in the New York City Subway
After a successful spring run at the UBS Art Gallery, Subway Style:
100 Years of Architecture & Design in the New York City Subway reopens
in Grand Central Terminal's Vanderbilt Hall to coincide with the
subway's October 1904 inauguration. The exhibition traces the design
of the system over the past century by examining architecture,
ceramics, metal and lighting, signage and graphics, furnishings,
cartography, fare collection, advertising, and rolling stock.
The exhibition draws upon objects and images in the New York Transit
Museum's extensive collections of artifact and archival materials as
well as on a series of new photographs of historic station ornament
and design features.
When: October 12 - November 8, 2004
Where: Grand Central Terminal - Vanderbilt Hall, Manhattan
This event operated by: New York Transit Museum
Information: 718-694-1600
Membership: 718-694-3451
New York Transit Museum - Exhibit - Grand Central Holiday Train Show
In celebration of the 100th anniversary of New York's first subway,
this year's annual Holiday Train Show promises to be a grand event!
The show features a toy train layout with MTA New York City Transit
trains operating on several levels, including an underground
subway. Created by M.T.H. Electric Trains, the layout represents New
York's unique cityscape, including such famous monuments as Grand
Central Terminal and the Empire State Building. The festive exhibit
will also feature a large display of New York City subway train models
from the Transit Museum's collection.
When: November 22, 2004 - January 9, 2005
Where: New York Transit Museum Gallery Annex, Grand Central Terminal
This event operated by: New York Transit Museum
Information: 718-694-1600
Membership: 718-694-3451
New York Transit Museum - Tour - Railroad to the Sea
September 10 marks the 72nd anniversary of the 1932 inauguration of A
train service. To celebrate this milestone in the subway's history the
Transit Museum is offering two special tours highlighting the A line.
The Rockaway Peninsula is one of the longest ocean front areas of any
municipality. The subway that serves it was built by predecessors of
the Long Island Rail Road, with A line subway service beginning in
1956. Along the way it features the longest run between stations (over
four miles), the world's busiest airport, a famous racetrack, a
national park, a bird sanctuary, and the world's longest hotel (more
than six blocks long) that never opened to the public! Explore the A
line with subway historian Joe Cunningham. Reservations and Advance
Payment Required: $20, Museum Members $15.
Where: Contact Museum
When: Sunday, September 12, 2004 at noon
This event operated by: New York Transit Museum
Information: 718-694-1600
Membership: 718-694-3451
New York Transit Museum - Tour - Take the A Train Uptown
Subway historian Joe Cunningham will lead a tour of the line made
famous by Duke Ellington's classic. Starting from midtown and riding
north, see unique subway construction due to the geology of northern
Manhattan, including one station excavated 180 feet in deep rock and
accessed only by elevators from the street above. So well shielded is
it from solar and cosmic radiation that it was the site of scientific
experiments by Nobel Prize laureate physicist Dr. Victor Hess. At
other locations, we'll see a unique suspended walkway reminiscent of
1930s science fiction serials and multi-level construction that
simplifies passenger access and convenience. Reservations and Advance
Payment Required: $20, Museum Members $15.
Where: Contact Museum
When: Sunday, September 26, 2004 at Noon
This event operated by: New York Transit Museum
Information: 718-694-1600
Membership: 718-694-3451
New York Transit Museum - Tour - New York City's First Subway Route
New York City's landscape changed dramatically when the first subway
opened 100 years ago. It spurred a building boom, impacted land
values, and influenced the siting of businesses and schools. Urban
geographer Jack Eichenbaum, Ph.D., will lead a special centennial tour
of six stations on the original subway line (6 S 1/9). On foot and by
train, explore City Hall Park, Astor Place, Madison Square, 42nd
Street (Grand Central and Times Square), Morningside
Heights/Manhattanville, and Hamilton Heights/City College.
Reservations and Advance Payment Required: $25, Museum Members $20.
Where: Contact Museum
When: Saturday, October 2, 2004 at 10 a.m. - 5:30 p.m.
This event operated by: New York Transit Museum
Information: 718-694-1600
Membership: 718-694-3451
New York Transit Museum - Tour - Centre Street Loop
The area around the Manhattan landing of the Brooklyn Bridge was a
center of business and commerce long before the construction of the
bridge. Spurs of East Side lines accessed the area by 1880 and the
first cable cars crossed the bridge soon after it opened. By the time
the IRT subway opened in 1904, the bridge terminal was a beehive of
activity, the Manhattan terminus for trains from Coney Island,
Brighton Beach, and the Queens border of eastern Brooklyn. It was
decided that all of the lower Manhattan bridges should be connected by
a subway loop line to serve the area. The lines were built to include
the Wall Street financial district and the civic center, but a variety
of economic and demographic changes intervened. In this tour subway
historian Joe Cunningham will review what was planned, what was
achieved, and the anticipated future of this congested and vital area.
Reservations AND ADVANCE PAYMENT Required: $20, MUSEUM MEMBERS $15.
Where: Contact Museum
When: Friday, October 29, 2004 at 6 P.M.
This event operated by: New York Transit Museum
Information: 718-694-1600
Membership: 718-694-3451
New York Transit Museum - Tour - Subway Unification Tour
The joining of the three competing New York City subway lines - the
IRT, BMT, and IND - was a milestone in New York City's public
transportation history. Andy Sparberg, Long Island Rail Road Manager
of Quality Assurance and a subway expert, will lead you through subway
facilities that illustrate the design of each of the three
lines. Starting at Times Square - a local station on the original IRT
line - the tour will take you to BMT and IND stations as well as some
operating facilities. Step behind the scenes in this eye-opening
excursion. Reservations AND ADVANCE PAYMENT Required: $20, MUSEUM
MEMBERS $15.
Where: Contact Museum
When: Sunday, December 5, 2004 at noon
This event operated by: New York Transit Museum
Information: 718-694-1600
Membership: 718-694-3451
If the TM wants new members, they sure have won me over big time.
til next time
What are you waiting for?
(words cannot suffice my -AMAZEMENT- at said fact)
1. IND "R's" 100-484-401-1575
2. IRT SMEE's 5760-6239-6609-9306
3. Brooklyn Union 1404, 1273, 1407
4. D-Types 6019, 6095, 6112
5. Low-V's 5290, 5292, 5443, 5483 (4902?)
6. ?
As for #6: The BMT Standards? An IND/BMT "SMEE" train (R10, R11, R16...)? Redbirds?
I'd think Redbirds would be the most likely and most "available" train but they could surprise us!
--Mark
The R110A's are fine!
It will be interesting to see if "the ban" is in effect during these programs.
--Mark
\\Julian
* ryan
til next time
-Chris
Just a Though
If the R-110 weren't five car trainsets it could be used on the TS/GCT Shuttle, but I'd say just assign it somewhere that had similar equipment like Pelham.
My guess is that the TA has deemed this sort of thing too costly. It does seem like a waste, but I won't pass any judgement since I don't know the story.
Wayne
Dyre shuttle from Dyre to 180th
Posted on:7/13/04 2:46:49 PM
Due to someone requiring medical assistance at Carnasie-Rockaway Parkway, the (L) line is suspended from Carnasie-Rockaway Parkway to Broadway Junction in both directions.
Wow, what a surprise:
----
Rail foes led by roadway builders
The lobby for road builders is a big contributor to the bullet train repeal campaign.
By Associated Press
Published July 13, 2004
ORLANDO - A road builders' lobbying organization gave $330,000 of the $1.3-million collected for a petition drive aimed at derailing Florida's bullet train project, according to a campaign finance report filed Monday.
Moving Florida, a political action committee established by the Florida Transportation Builders Association, was the largest contributor to DErail the Bullet Train (DEBT) during the year's second quarter.
"We're the same people that would probably build the bullet train if it were built," FTBA president Bob Burleson said. "Believe it or not, sometimes we try to think of the greater good. If there were a way to pay for high speed rail, we'd be all for it. I just don't think, currently, we can afford to build it; I think we have much more pressing needs."'
Two major Central Florida theme parks, bypassed on a planned route that does connect with Walt Disney World, were also major contributors to the kill-the-rail project.
The first leg of the proposed rail network, from Orlando to Tampa, is estimated to cost $2.6-billion, although opponents believe the true price is $6.4-billion.
DEBT spent $1.1-million during the quarter, almost all on its petition drive that would have voters decide whether to repeal the constitutional amendment requiring the state to build the rail line. Floridians approved the amendment four years ago.
The petition needs close to 489,000 valid signatures for the repeal to reach the Nov. 2 ballot. DEBT officials said they have collected more than 600,000 signatures.[i think this is a typo, it says 60k everywhere else]
"Grass-roots support for the bullet train's repeal has been tremendous," Slater Bayliss, DEBT's executive director, said in a statement. "Voters throughout the state are supporting our grass-roots campaign because they want the opportunity to repeal the bullet train boondoggle and cancel this wasteful mandate."[she doesn't mention how petitioners in front of supermarkets tell you, "if you want a bullet train sign here", telling you you need to sign the petition if you WANT the train, and not if you don't want it!!]
The Villages, a massive retirement community in Central Florida, gave $300,000. Developer Gary Morse is a major fundraiser for the GOP, and Republican Gov. Jeb Bush has ardently opposed bullet trains.
The SeaWorld Orlando theme park, upset it wouldn't benefit from a station nearby, gave $250,000. When the route was selected, SeaWorld and Universal Orlando lost out to rival Disney for a stop. The Florida High Speed Rail Authority was swayed by studies showing Disney could offer more riders than the attractions in the International Drive tourist district.
Universal contributed more than $220,000 to DEBT in March.
Contributing a total of $100,000 were three railroad companies: CSX Transportation ($50,000), Florida East Coast Industries ($25,000) and Rail Management Corp. ($25,000).[Do these companies get money for Amtrak using their tracks?]
Also Monday, a Tallahassee judge held a hearing in a lawsuit against the petition drive.
The lawsuit was filed by C.C. "Doc" Dockery, the Lakeland businessman who got the train on the ballot in 2000, and alleges that the signatures aren't invalid because they don't have the names and addresses of the people paid to collect them.
Circuit Judge P. Kevin Davey refused earlier this month to issue a preliminary injunction sought by Dockery, saying he could find no provision in state law that requires such signatures be thrown out.
After listening to attorneys Monday, Davey refused to dismiss the lawsuit, giving Dockery's lawyers the go-ahead to seek documents from the campaign in an effort to prove their allegations.
© Copyright 2003 St. Petersburg Times. All rights reserved
----
The Villages, BTW is an old peoples CITY, not retirement home, but CITY. Driving on 441 on the beautiful countryside and rural no cars around area's you come up to a freaking CITY with traffic lights and the works. I should sue him for ruining another one of the my drive roads and what makes it easy to get around. I hate these roadblocks.
My favorite quote:
"In a written statement, company officials said Monday that high-speed rail would be a costly burden on Florida taxpayers, and the money would be better spent on other options, such as adding more lanes to Interstate 4."
Well that 1.4 billion now, plus however much it costed in 96 for that project sure isn't working! And how many lanes will it take to add 3million more residents on that road???
Anti-train campaign gathers steam
Opponents using $1.4 million to kill rail project
By Mark Schlueb
Sentinel Staff Writer
July 13, 2004
Opponents of Florida's controversial bullet train have lined up more than $1.4 million in their push to kill the project, including big contributions from road-building interests, SeaWorld and friends of Gov. Jeb Bush.
Reports submitted Monday by the "Derail the Bullet Train" committee show the group has spent most of its money hiring consultants to gather petition signatures aimed at repealing the high-speed rail constitutional amendment passed by voters four years ago. The anti-train effort has until Aug. 3 to gather 488,722 certified signatures, enough to earn a spot on the November ballot.
"We anticipated that they were going to raise quite a bit of money, particularly from interests who felt they had something to gain from stopping the project," said Keith Lee Rupp, president of the pro-train Florida Transportation Association.
Among the top givers: Anheuser-Busch, whose SeaWorld Orlando theme park was snubbed last year when state officials picked a train route that bypassed it and the International Drive tourist strip and went straight to Walt Disney World. The St. Louis company wrote a $250,000 check.
A political action committee of road- and bridge-building companies made seven contributions totaling $330,000 over the past nine weeks, reports show. Bob Burleson, head of the Florida Transportation Builders' Association and its political committee, said the bullet train would siphon away money that would otherwise be spent to build and upgrade roads.
"You've got to make choices where you spend the money," Burleson said. "If we take the money for high-speed rail, you'd take money away from congestion-relief projects."
The Villages retirement community gave $300,000 to the effort. The real estate company is headed by Gary Morse, a frequent contributor to Republican candidates, including Bush. Company administrators did not return a call seeking comment.
Three railroad companies -- CSX Transportation, Florida East Coast Industries and Rail Management Corp. -- contributed a combined $100,000.
"Grass-roots support for the bullet train's repeal has been tremendous," Slater Bayliss, executive director of the opposition group, said in a statement.
"Voters throughout the state are supporting our grass-roots campaign because they want the opportunity to repeal the bullet-train boondoggle and cancel this wasteful mandate."
Anheuser-Busch's contribution comes not long after Universal Orlando kicked off the petition drive with a $220,000 contribution.
Like the owners of SeaWorld Orlando and several International Drive businesses, Universal Orlando officials are steamed on behalf of Universal Studios and Islands of Adventure that a nearby route along the Bee Line Expressway was passed over in favor of one closer to Disney.
Disney threatened to not support the project if the Bee Line route was chosen. With the loss of millions of potential riders hanging over them, members of the Florida High Speed Rail Authority last fall gave in and selected the route favored by Disney: along the Central Florida GreeneWay.
The bullet-train project has been controversial since its inception. Voters approved the petition-initiative in 2000, but it has never been funded by the Legislature.
The first leg of the project would run from Orlando International Airport to Tampa at an estimated cost of $2.4 billion.
Opponents, including Gov. Bush and state Chief Financial Officer Tom Gallagher, say it would be much more expensive than supporters contend.
Project backers say critics are exaggerating costs to scare taxpayers.
The debate has taken a different turn in Central Florida, where tourism interests have sparred over the route the train would take.
Though SeaWorld Orlando representatives lobbied for the train to come close to their theme park, the company has opposed the project since the Disney route was chosen.
In a written statement, company officials said Monday that high-speed rail would be a costly burden on Florida taxpayers, and the money would be better spent on other options, such as adding more lanes to Interstate 4.
Anheuser-Busch is a frequent contributor to both political parties, and occasionally to specific candidates. Federal campaign finance reports show the company hasn't given such a large contribution to a single cause in at least 10 years.
The anti-train group says it has gathered more than 600,000 signatures so far. As of Monday, about 237,500 had been verified by the state's elections offices, which typically lag behind.
C.C. "Doc" Dockery, a Lakeland millionaire who began the bullet-train effort, filed a lawsuit last month asking a judge to throw out tens of thousands of petition signatures.
The workers paid to gather signatures did not properly list their own names and addresses on each petition, which the suit contends is required by law.
There was a hearing in the case Monday, but a Tallahassee judge has not yet ruled.
Wire services were used in this report.
Mark Schlueb can be reached at mschlueb@orlandosentinel.com or 407-420-5417.
Which new lanes would, of course, become choked with traffic practically before the asphalt's dry.
And if tourism goes beyond 2001 levels finally, it's fuller.
Anymore snowbird retiree's? fuller
Polk county with billions in construction and new people, probalby add a couple million residents.
Tampa with at least half a million more people, watch them brakes lights....
Orlando's insatiable sprawl, with god knows hwo many more ppl thanks to Jeb's western beltway....Can I drive on the shoulder? Wait there's poepole there. Where's Augustus Busch's helicopter at!!
It doesn't take a genious and bs stats to convince me. I'm just scared to death I wont' be able to go back and forth between cities someday, which is coming.
More gas used = more $$$$ for the Bushes.
And for Hussein, the Saudis and eventually to bin Laden...
Well maybe not Hussein anymore, but the others still stand...
More gas used = more $$$$ for the Bushes.
More misinformed propaganda. Since oil supplies are generally at a fixed amount, increasing demand won't lead to increased prices. Please stop parroting anti-Bush propaganda without verifying it's truthfullness.
If you want to rip Republicans, use a real reason, like their cozy relationship with those who would directly benefit from increased spending on highway construction.
This one caught me off-guard. Why are freight railroads against passenger rail? This is INSANITY!
Don't they know that more rail is good for everyone??? Know we know why rail is in such bad condition.
I know freight lines don't like having to make time and space for Amtrak trains on their tracks, for one thing.
Mark
Mark<<<<
This high-speed bullet train will not run on freight lines.
Oter than that I can't see any effects. I'd love to know. Maybe CSX wants HSR too, haha. I thought of a suggestion of letting them use the tracks during non-operational hours, for a straight shot.
http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2004/07/13/ttc_fraud040713.html?print
I'm not familiar with Toronto's fare system. Are the transit tickets like our MetroCard?
I use Google News.
http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&edition=us&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=subway&scoring=d
This link will find all mentions of "subway" or any other word you're interested in and you will get the most recent articles first. Unfortunately, if an article has gone out on one of the wire services, the search will return repeat articles from different papers. You can eliminate that by taking a key word in the title of the article and minusing it from subway, i.e. subway -olympics
Oh, yes, where was I? Anyone have a reason why the tickets might still be needed??
There are two kinds....green (or blue) which are full price...$2 each, and pink, which are $1.83 + 1/3 each.....and "6 pour 11,00$" (French for 6 for $11). THe pink ones come attached in a strip, and you tear one ticket off to use it. The back has a mag-stripe on it and some form of watermark.
WHen you want to get into the Metro, you tear off a ticket and stick it into a slot on the turnstyle....the turnstyle "sucks" the ticket in, and you can actually hear it being "chopped", and then you can enter.
The tickets are printed on cardboard and are about the size of a postage stamp. They've been increasingly the subject of counterfitting because of the recent availibility of high quality, low cost computer equipment and colour photocopiers. Counterfit tickets have been a problem for some time. Apparantly, there have also been problems, to a much lesser extent, with counterfit tokens.
-Robert King
From the Milwaukee Journal Sentinal
On transit, suburbs know best
By GREGORY STANFORD
gstanford@journalsentinel.com
Posted: July 10, 2004
Egads. Minneapolis has just joined the ranks of cities with - now, cover the ears of children - light rail.
Thank goodness, suburban leaders have kept Milwaukee off that track, which takes an unsuspecting city headlong over a cliff into heaven knows what.
Minneapolis lacked such sage counsel - or at least ignored it. So, alas, the debut of light rail marks the beginning of the end for that grand city.
OK, the first week's ridership did exceed expectations by 70%, Twin Cities transit officials report. Passengers boarded the eight-mile Hiawatha line a total of 93,000 times.
But just you wait and see. Light rail will drag Minneapolis into perdition.
State lawmakers from Milwaukee's suburbs know better. They once managed to block the use of federal funds just to study the feasibility of light rail here.
In Minneapolis, riders who talk with the media show blissful ignorance of the ruin the system is wreaking. The Minneapolis Star Tribune quotes one rider as merrily giving up her downtown parking spot. Another enthused that the rail line was faster than a bus and cheaper than a car.
A third customer raved: "I think it works great. The train was excellent. It's quick. It's less stressful (than driving)."
Milwaukee suburban leaders - among them County Executive Scott Walker - know, however, that Minneapolis' joy ride will sooner or later crash into harsh reality.
These leaders don't need studies to figure out that light rail won't work in Milwaukee. For one thing, the area lacks the population density to support such a system, they note.
According to the U.S. Census Bureau, the four-county metropolitan area here sports 1,028 people per square mile. That happens to be more than twice the density of the hapless Minneapolis-St. Paul area, which features just 490 people per square mile.
In fact, Beer Town is denser than two-thirds of the 24 American metropolitan areas that currently feature light rail, as listed by a Texas-based Web site called Light Rail Now (www.lightrailnow.org).
Doubtless those areas - Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Dallas, San Diego among them - are doomed, having invested heavily in light rail without the density to support it.
The most thinly populated metro area, by the way, is Denver, with 304 people per square mile. So expect that system to crash any day now. OK, it's true that Denver's Regional Transportation District is wrestling with the problem of too many light rail riders, not too few. But the crash is coming; our suburban honchos know what they're talking about.
In Minneapolis, baseball fans helped to swell ridership the first week, hopping on the train to attend three games between the Minnesota Twins and the Chicago White Sox at the Metrodome downtown.
The Hiawatha line snakes southward from downtown, ending for the time being just shy of the Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport. In December, the line will stretch another four miles, adding stops at the airport and at the Mall of America.
Speedy rail does have more power to draw riders, even to pull them out of their cars, than do rubber-wheeled busses. Transit officials in Portland, Ore., say that 72% of its light rail riders leave their cars at home or choose not to own cars, taking the train instead.
Those officials also report that ridership on both buses and trains has been steadily rising over the years. But just you wait. Portland will get its comeuppance.
Through a project called the Milwaukee Connector, public officials here are looking for a transit system to stitch together such tourist sites as downtown, Miller Park, the Summerfest grounds and Potawatomi Bingo Casino. Because the subject is verboten here, the officials ruled out light rail. New downtown Ald. Robert Bauman, however, apparently didn't get the memo. So he proposed a $120 million light rail system and got a polite commitment from Milwaukee Connector officials to look at that option.
Of course, a major reason for opposition to light rail is money. Officials who have no trouble plopping down $810 million to rebuild the Marquette Interchange balk at spending lesser amounts for light rail. Somehow, freeways are more worthy than mass transit - even when mass transit eases freeway traffic.
Foes of light rail, like Walker, argue that buses suffice. Yet in two years in office, Walker has dumped 12 bus routes, slashed service on 10 others, trimmed late-night service and raised the basic fare from $1.50 to $1.75.
Don't fret, though. Milwaukee hasn't pursued the light rail pipe dream, which will turn into a nightmare for the cities that did. They will learn what Milwaukee already knows: Don't think so big and bold. Just you wait and see.
Gregory Stanford is a Journal Sentinel editorial writer and columnist. His e-mail address is gstanford@journalsentinel.com
Now, my confession. My sister, who has a different last name, lives in Milwaukee and is a NIMBY when it comes to light rail. Her home abuts an abandoned C&NW right-of-way, a proposed light rail route, now a bike path, although it was an active rail line when she moved there. When I last visited, she indulged me with trips to the East Troy museum and the Kenosha streetcar line. In fact, her best friends owned Sheboygan interurban car #26 when it was a summer home, donated it to East Troy, and are spearheading its restoration to its glory.
I'm at a loss for an explanation.
The reason to include both car type and car number is because over the years car numbers have been used more than once. Also right after unification there were many instances of three cars (one each from the IRT,BMT and IND) having the same number.
Larry, RedbirdR33
*********************************************************************
Insteadtingly enough this plan was initiated in 2003. Personally I hope that Amtrak continues to be put on it's lean diet as in the plan they call to kill several active towers and destroy some classic PRR pneumatic interlockings. Amtrak also plans to retire it's Heritage fleet of coaches instead of rebuilding those Budd bueaties. Again, let's hope a lack of funding causes them to reconsider. The entire plan is at http://www.amtrak.com/pdf/strategic.pdf
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07062004.shtml#Amtrak
Mark
This one made me laugh... The high-speed Bullet train has one foot in the grave and they don't want Amtrack service?
Maybe we could promote something more modest in the meantime: electrification of the VRE lines to Manassas and Fredericksburg? More midday service and better integration with the PRTC?
Good idea. It's good because there's no way Atlanta will stand for it only going to Raleigh-Durham. You build to North Carolina and Atlanta will do everything in its power to get in on the action.
Mark
This is all just daydreaming and it includes a lot of wishful thinking, but it's fun to speculate.
Mark
Amtrack did not get all the money they wanted and are still thinking of expanding new routes?? Come on. This is just David Gunn dreaming.
No, it was ME dreaming.
: )
Mark
Can i PLEASE get something into atlanta and then charlotte!!! Why not extend whatever train that does that from up north to at least jax or tpa now!??
PLEASE!!
You ever see the NC page in the Amtrak guide and it says florida connections. 12 hours from me to the connection in NC, 6-8 hour wait for the next train, 6 more hours to go about 120 miles back to charlotte.
Is this a joke? This is 2004, why isn't there a connection?!?!? Put down the gay marriage amendment and do something!
They sound plenty busy to me. :)
Those will get swept aside anyway, no matter if Amtrak lives or dies.
*********************************************************************
This was reported about a week before the Times grade crossing investigation. Looks like the FRA made the right call.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07062004.shtml#FRA
I'm going to submit a comment asking that the FRA ask Congress thusly: any handling of the black box by other than an FRA official after an accident be defined as a felony punishable by up to 5 years in prison.
*********************************************************************
I always wonder why they do maintainence in the summer when it is evilly hot instead of other times of the year when the conditions are milder.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07062004.shtml#Why
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But I am sure someone will find a way to block it.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07062004.shtml#Pondering
I hope they get it for a few reasons. Traffic in that situation sucks. Old people "losing control" of their car suck. And it would be nice to not let all the abandoned lines and stations detoriate further. Maybe add some hints or order and organization to the area too. But they're going to wait until they exhaust all the sales and gas tax sources probably, which should be soon.
Plus all those counties bicker way too much.
What is this rail line used for today? I can understand sugar cane runs and all that, but I wouldn't know why it would be heading to ft. myers.
*********************************************************************
A little Op Ed piece on why FL needs more commuter rail.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07062004.shtml#Who
As much as I hope for commuter rail or LRT in O-town or Tampa, Jax may be a really viable area.
First, it's CSX headquarters and has an FEC connection.
Second, in history, Jacksonville at one point had the largest # of passenger trains coming thorugh it. It was a main hub.
Third, they have the monorail thing downtown already, and union station has a stop on it!
forth: Jacksonville is way behind on urban revitalization as the rest of florida is having. Though jax isn't really florida, it's a real southern city. But the georgia border is too far north, so let have it.
They have so many rails already existing, if they could have a track sharing agreement, this is golden.
You demonstrate a firm grasp of the intricacies of your state when you make a distinction between being Southern and being Florida!
As for Jacksonville, it's the home of Lynyrd Skynyrd, and you can't get more Southern than that!
Mark
But really, you can't tell Jax from Georgia. I could say the same about miami, not being florida. And when I do that, i can make a case for every other part to a lesser degree.
But then that's what I do like about the state. All five+ regions are like separate states.
But Jacksonville should get the rail. They have so many tracks laying around from it's years of being founded from rail(like tampa was), that it's a joke if they can't put some dirt as a platform, and a few railcars in motion.
*********************************************************************
Yes, but they totally gave me the cold shoulder when I inquired about an internship regarding their computer and network security.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07122004.shtml#Broadbent
*********************************************************************
Well of course people will prefer flying when you never provide any funding to improve the rail options.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07122004.shtml#Chicago
I hope they have the good sense to route this thing with stations at the big airports so it can be integrated with air travel for true multimodality.
Mark
As for Milwaukee, I'm surprised Metra doesn't go there. It's just another 40 from the Metra terminal at Kenosha. The track is already there, and the line uses diesels so no wires need to be strung.
Mark
*********************************************************************
I don't know if this was reported here, but Amtrak almost shut down the Adirondack (NYP to Montreale) because NY State had failed to pay their portion of the trains costs as per their agreement with Amtrak. It was really touch and go for a while if what has been cited as one of the most senic rail lines in the continent would cease operation.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07122004.shtml#Adirondack
*********************************************************************
looks like my rail investments might start payin off.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07122004.shtml#BNSF
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http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07122004.shtml#Harmonics
(I'm looking for the silver lining to this cloud).
*********************************************************************
I wonder if CSX's closing of Seneca yard had anything to do with this?
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07122004.shtml#CP
Aint that NJTransit? Because the closest for that line is Trenton and that doesnt even reach into PA.
Mark
I'd really like it if NJT would give the 'NEC Line' a proper name, it sounds moronic. Perhaps they could call it the trenton line or something.
I aint sadly mistaken when I already said I thought it was the NJTransit line but had a feeling it was Amtrak that was talked about. So dont give me the sad mistaken part, it sounds like I knew nothing.
Of course NJT does have service in Philadelphia, and it does run on the NEC :)
Mark
"Midtown Direct" is NJT's term for trains that switch from the Hoboken lines to the NEC east of Newark and go into NYP.
Though true, you it confuses the person when they dont meantion what specific system. Remember NJ and Amtrak dont run the same schedule everytime, so it may/may not effect specific trains, etc...
"For some reason I thought any NE railfan knows the NEC DOES extend further than the NYC Commuter line."
Like I said, though true, you still got to meantion which specific system, makes no difference. And you dont need to be a NE fan to know where the NEC goes/stops/whatever.
"As such for you to assume that any delays on the NEC were NJT related around Philadelphia is completely illogical. I hope you'll excuse me for saying so, but I think I have just cause to wonder if you know anything."
Wow, from one post you think I dont know anything? Maybe you should be the next person banned for being arrogant. Each system is different, NJ and Amtrak might use the same tracks, but are completely different. They got different speed restrictions, and the cars are suited for different conditions while another might not. So stop acting like your god, and stop putting people down. It aint my fauly somebody says NEC and doesnt specifiy which system itself.
Your pal,
Google
I was wondering if the stopped service or ended the line early due to flooding.
Curious how the stations are doing. It'd be a shame if the old freight? station got swept away or something in the flood.
We have added in a new College Campus Gallery devoted to College Campus shuttle bus systems. We've also opened up the Green Bus Lines, Triboro Coach, MTA Metro North and Long Island Railroad Pages & have added in some new MTA Subway photos. In addition, we've added 2 new bus sounds, 2 new rail movies, and 1 new rail wallpaper.
Sit Back and Enjoy!
Click Train To Enter Update
Regards,
Trevor Logan
2 SIR transitpics.com photos are on TransiTalk.info!
>>>Transitalk SIR photos
>>>Transitpics.com SIR page(i used one of the pix Trevor used as this page's banner image)
(Please click here to sign my guestbook)
-Chris
Ever notice how nobody actually buys those X10 camera things?
I mean you no disrespect with this post, I just thought I'd advise you that a few folks (myself included) are getting upset over you hijacking threads with your photos. Just a friendly reminder from one of your peers at the (currently) peer-moderated forum of Subtalk. :)
See? We don't need no steenking MODs!
Im sorry if you (and other subtalkers) were offended by this, but I guess im kinda exited with my new site. I have made some inprovements with my posts like posting thumbnail links instead of just putting them all in the post, which takes along time to load and is annoying.
I am also currently working on a smaller banner thing for my posts as to make my posts somewhat less annoying. I see that you have a valid point and there is NO way I would want this to escalate into a big flame war(and Im sure no one else including u does either).
See? We don't need no steenking MODs!
Yea, but they sure are fun! :->
-Chris
Where are the 'Samsung' posts?
-Chris
-Chris
Hey, how old are they anyway? I'm so pissed I don't have a camera, yet. :(
They're both in middle school. They're not railfans at ALL, but they are kinda fascinated by the subway buff world online. My bro sometimes pokes fun at the subway (ex: he'll say 'i heard theres an r177 on the U train'). They found it interesting to know that the subway car inside a local Jewish eatery on SI is an arnine! Too bad u dont have a camera yet, but at least u have 10,000 peeps posting their pix from Mods on subtalk.
-Chris
-Chris
This picture is definitely not outside Werblin, still looks like College Ave to me.
I can get you some Werblin and Busch Student Center bus pictures in the Fall.
John
Click Here
Trevor
I didn't see my pix there, but of course it's a busy job. Maybe next time. Great update BTW.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Which new lanes would, of course, become choked with traffic practically before the asphalt's dry.
And if tourism goes beyond 2001 levels finally, it's fuller.
Anymore snowbird retiree's? fuller
Polk county with billions in construction and new people, probalby add a couple million residents.
Tampa with at least half a million more people, watch them brakes lights....
Orlando's insatiable sprawl, with god knows hwo many more ppl thanks to Jeb's western beltway....Can I drive on the shoulder? Wait there's poepole there. Where's Augustus Busch's helicopter at!!
It doesn't take a genious and bs stats to convince me. I'm just scared to death I wont' be able to go back and forth between cities someday, which is coming.
"screw this"
See, that's *my* Ambulance in the "station". And the tracks *are* closer to this City Hall then they are to your City Hall.
In any event, I'll be in *the* City on the 24th. See you on the MOD with my Lion in tow.
Elias
The Security checkpoint is in that little flap to the right of the garage door. Punch in the right code, and the door opens! : )
I have a key to the front door, just in case the power is off.
Elias
(Sitting in a public library in Pennsylvania... and waiting for my train ride on Saturday)
wayne
TO BEAT OR NOT TO BEAT: SUBWAY TRAIN
The World’s First Beat Poetry Rock Musical
Since their involvement in the First Annual New York International
Fringe Festival, (FringeNYC), The Liilaa Company (pronounced lee-lah) brings SUBWAY TRAIN to the 2004 festival taking place this August. The show will be playing at the Players Theatre, 115 MacDougal Street, with performances dates: 8/18 4pm; 8/19 7:30pm; 8/20 10:45pm; 8/26 10:15pm, and 8/28 8pm.
Tickets are $15 from FringeNYC at (212) 279-4488 or through their official website at http://www.fringenyc.org
SUBWAY TRAIN is set to take FringeNYC by storm - just one more stop on its journey toward breaking the standard of what musical theater is today. It tells a simple story of real people living their hopes and imperfections on the train. Through taking risks, the journey becomes one of consequence, rebirth, and self-discovery. However, most shows have stories. What sets Subway Train apart from other musicals is the way it functions and the authenticity of the work itself.
About 90% of SUBWAY TRAIN is comprised of true experiences that were
documented in journals while riding the New York City subway system. The show was put together like a puzzle by its creators through combining a series of individual pieces with original songs and musical underscoring. By fusing elements of classic beat-style poetry with a hip musical score as diverse as the city itself, SUBWAY TRAIN brings the spirit of the Beat Movement on stage together with the fresh music, ideas, and concerns of today’s generation.
SUBWAY TRAIN’s creators, Joshua Kobak, Mickey Fisher, and Katy Pfaffl, were like many subway riders – three Midwesterners who moved to New York only to discover the folklore of the subway system was as fascinating and true as the legends they grew up with. SUBWAY TRAIN is right on track towards bringing theatergoers of all ages together to experience a show unlike any other in FringeNYC, or in the Musical Theater scene of NYC at this time. It is a ride you won’t want to miss!
Official Site
http://www.subway-train.com
There was a musical stage in Germany called "Linie 1" (Line 1), with songs about the U-Bahn and the people on it. I'm sure you can still get in on amazon.de or www.footlight.com (Footlight Records, a record shop on 113 E. 12 St. near 4th Avenue in the Village).
Self rode many a time in those vestibules al aire....
Last I recall, the consist was still running on that interval...
IMHO, It SUCKS! No color anywhere. The only good thing is that they used a RiverLINE car to depict light rail.
IMHO, It SUCKS! No color anywhere. The only good thing is that they used a RiverLINE car to depict light rail.
I disagree. I think it looks great. The old web site was hard to navigate. I would rather sacrifice color over content. The new site is simple - which is a good thing.
Boston Herald article here
And you konw what? I am extremely surprised that mailboxes haven't been targetted yet by the powers that be here in Boston! Thankfully the USPS has some sense as to not be as hysterical as the Bostonian government folks
* ryan
And you know the ironic thing: the MBTA can make a fortune by charging the newspapers for the right to sell or give away their newspapers every morning and evening. Pretty stupid, since it's a huge market for the big two newspapers and the free newspaper. Oh well, guess the public has to get the shaft again thanks to laziness.
In the end, commuters will adjust by having their paper delivered to their home or buying one at Dunkin' Donuts on their way to the train station. And vendors still sell newspapers at many busy stations during rush hours.
Jim D.
No danger of encountering any terrorists at Dunkin' Donuts, of course, because half the police force is there at any given time.
Now, my confession. My sister, who has a different last name, lives in Milwaukee and is a NIMBY when it comes to light rail. Her home abuts an abandoned C&NW right-of-way, a proposed light rail route, now a bike path, although it was an active rail line when she moved there. When I last visited, she indulged me with trips to the East Troy museum and the Kenosha streetcar line. In fact, her best friends owned Sheboygan interurban car #26 when it was a summer home, donated it to East Troy, and are spearheading its restoration to its glory.
I'm at a loss for an explanation.
http://www.transitmuseumstore.com/ Click on the "Station Identification" section.
They have all the stations listed but not all have been set up for imprinting yet.
The prices are:
T-Shirt $24.00
Mug $17.00
Mouse Pad $16.00
Youth T-Shirt $19.00
The shipping costs will vary by the total price of the items ordered (and are not cheap). They ship via UPS or DHL.
Total order Shipping
$0.00 to $11.49 $7.50
$11.50 to $30.99 $6.00
$31.00 to $49.99 $8.00
$50.00 to $69.99 $10.00
$70.00 and $99.99 $14.00
$100.00 and Up $18.00
I think it is a good idea (I suggested something like this back in the early 1990's) but the pricing and shipping may limit the amount sold. Does anyone want to pay a total of $30.00 for a T-shirt regardless of what the subject matter is?
It's amazing how long it took for your idea, which was over 10 years ago, to mold into reality for the TM brass.
C'mon, Sid, save the poor mouth for later. You want a shirt or not?
Besides, you can probably buy 2 shirts for the same shipping cost. No, I take that back; it's 8 bucks to ship 2 shoits.
Your pal,
Warren
More gas used = more $$$$ for the Bushes.
And for Hussein, the Saudis and eventually to bin Laden...
Well maybe not Hussein anymore, but the others still stand...
More gas used = more $$$$ for the Bushes.
More misinformed propaganda. Since oil supplies are generally at a fixed amount, increasing demand won't lead to increased prices. Please stop parroting anti-Bush propaganda without verifying it's truthfullness.
If you want to rip Republicans, use a real reason, like their cozy relationship with those who would directly benefit from increased spending on highway construction.
Some of my choices:
City Hall IRT
Chambers Street BMT
Grand Central IRT (pre-"H" obviously)
Any others?
Of course, I missed that because I was the first revenue passenger to enter the station of Joanic, on line 4, when it opened that same day :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
--Mark
I'd want to go to City Hall IRT, South Ferry IRT, or Coney Island BMT.
Looking at it today, you can sense that it once was a grandiose place indeed.
6/22/15 or 5/23/04?
til next time
Koi
I dunno which station on Queens Blvd this is but I'd want to go here just to eyewitness the sparse development. Thanks to whoever posted this photo here in the last year.
Your pal,
Fred
The trouble, of course, is that police officers and security guards are no more or less likely to be idiots tha other people.
It would be interesting to take the scenario that happened, and run a simulation of it at a police academy (using a computer-driven video simulator).
Ask 100 officers, chosen at random, to go through the simulator, and see how each responds to it. Would they fill a bell-curve? Would the top 5% watch the guy, conclude there is no issue, and move on, with the next few % approaching him politely and talking to him about photography, and so on, down to the bottom % who would handle it incompetently?
One thing the officers could have done is selected several photographers at random and requested ID from them.
That's photographer-profiling, similar to racial profiling by selectively pulling over motorists at random because they were of African-American descent, not based of a traffic violation being observered by the officers, unacceptable in either case.
OK, let's modify it again - they can interview a random selection of all people at the location. This would be similar to a random alcohol screening at a given street, where everyone, or a random selection (every 3rd car, say), are stopped for a sobriety check.
Now I'm letting my imagination go for a ride...
You wouldn’t have to. He would have died from oxygen toxicity.
It’s air in the tank.
You sure have a vivid imagination, Ron.
"Mainstream" might've been a poor choice of word. What I meant to say is that rail, especially subway, photography is a bit more specialized and less common than tourist-style photography; as a result, if ordinary tourist photography becomes subject to police harrassment, rail photographers will really be in for a tough time.
If cops racially profile and pull over a black driver for no reason, is it ok if they pull over a white driver for no reason as well?
This sounds a lot to me like the TSA strip-searching grandmothers and Congressmen, making nursing mothers drink their own breast milk, and trying to confiscate Congressional medals of honor from World War II veterans.
I think the biggest thing that cops can do to improve the situation is to drop the damn condescending, intimidating attitude - if they're polite, and ask questions nicely, I think you'll see a lot fewer complaints. I, for one, am highly put off whenever someoene takes an attitude with me, or I get the sense they're trying to intimidate me in order to more easily take advantage of me.
Old Way: "What the hell are you doing here?"
New Way: "Good afternoon, sir. Would you mind if I had a few words with you for a moment?"
Old way: "Show me your ID, motherf***er!"
New Way: "Could I please take a look at your driver's licence for a moment?"
I think you'll find that most people are much more forthcoming and much more cooperative when you use the "New Way" - in particular, many will voluntarily cede their Constitutional rights if they do not feel threatened. Not that that's right, but it's true; you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.
Now, if the "New Way" fails, then police have the prerogative to use the "Old Way." The trouble is, some simply skip to the "Old Way" without bothering to even try the "New Way" -- it's less work that way since you don't have to repeat yourself.
Well, actually, yes - read my description of what a sobriety checkpoint does.
The rest of your post is absolutely correct. Not only that, but it would help if the officers' superiors treat them that way too, setting the example:
Old way:
"Hey Dickhead, what did I tell you about securing your friggin' radio. Jesus Christ, why do I bother putting you in a patrol car?"
Proper Way:
"Excuse me, Officer Dickson, if you would place your radio upright in the left-most loop on your belt you'll find that it is comfortable even in the car and you won't lose it while on patrol. Please have a safe shift."
On my last visit there, the freights were ruined, BNSF Heritage and Warbonnet C44-9Ws are now ruling the line, the workhorse SD40-2s often now relegated to followers. In perhaps the ultimate sacrilege, some of the SD40-2s have traded their muted and fitting cascade green and black for the gaudy Heritage schemes. It may LOOK like GN, but it sure as hell doesn't feel the same as the pics I've seen of GN locos crossing Salmon Bay. Of course now you have 2 or 3 Sounder trains crossing the bridge every day, I would like to see that, hopefully next spring.
It's terrible to hear that person was discriminated against. In addition to the police possibly acting beligerent, I'd like to know who phoned him in.
Looking around,there were others taking pictures[tourist]..so I said why he single us out,while there were dozzens of people taking pics...He asked me for ID and I said I didn't have to produce anything to him if we didn't do anything wrong..then I asked HIM for his ID
He showed his badge..[thats not ID.IT JUST SAYING HE'S A COP],meanwhile one of his friends walks over and doen't say anything,just stands there...
He goes thur the whole routine about 9/11 and so on...and yet again I tell him "But why US?"...
To make a long story short....after a while he gives up because Im thinking he just "profiled my friend and myself"..and she going off...!He finally said,"Get out of here...and watch yourself.the next person might not be so nice"
I said once again what did we do...what did she do to make you speak to use like that? HE and his buddy just walked away...
I was tight like a mother..and my friend was livid! But it was all good because I knew what that was all about...
he didn't want to answer ANY of my question,but keep pressing the issue about ID...I didn't show him jack,and neither did she.
He had nothing ,so he got nothing...
Funny thing is,while he was talking to us,there were other people walking pass and TALKING PICTURES!! Not one word was said to them....
Makes you wonder if we had the right shade on that day...
Where the People with the dogs are....and thats all over....
We're looking more and more like North Korea every day. Let us pray that Dear Leader soon sees the light...
that when my friend started taking her pictures...and there you go...
This is starting to become one damned scarey place.
All in the name of Bush...and his friends.
But knowing this city,and how some folks get down..I wouldn't be surprised if somebody tried that...
This one caught me off-guard. Why are freight railroads against passenger rail? This is INSANITY!
Don't they know that more rail is good for everyone??? Know we know why rail is in such bad condition.
I know freight lines don't like having to make time and space for Amtrak trains on their tracks, for one thing.
Mark
Mark<<<<
This high-speed bullet train will not run on freight lines.
Oter than that I can't see any effects. I'd love to know. Maybe CSX wants HSR too, haha. I thought of a suggestion of letting them use the tracks during non-operational hours, for a straight shot.
Daresay, a fine line between "harassed" and "assaulted".
THANKFUL Brah Allah had no bodily injury.
It may be my browser or the 17 inch screen that I have but unless I looked closer the 2nd photo actually appeared to be a photo of a model of the train and the station.
Pulling on your vest, ID badge and person is assult!!!!!!.
You should have gotten his badge number and reported him to LACMTA and the local cops. Maybe a conviction on an assult charge might cost him his job.
Well, maybe it's different in California but in NY and probably most states pulling on ones vest, ID badge and person certainly is not assault, it is harassment, a mere violation. For assault you need a physical injury. Reporting the motorman to LACMTA and the police would only have gotten Salaam laughed at and possibly he would have gotten in trouble for having the vest.
What happened to Salaam qualifies as assault even if the contact was minor in nature.
There will be variations among local jurisdictions but generally the law in the US follows the above principle.
The lawyers here may be amateurs, but they got it right.
There's another point beyond the actual legalities. I can't imagine that there's any transit agency anywhere in the country that doesn't prohibit its employees from using any sort of physical force against customers except when absolutely necessary to defend themselves. Of course, I wasn't there to see the present incident, so I have no idea what might have transpired.
This is not the street or your home you do not have the same rights on property.
Pulling an assailant off a victim of battery is clearly defensible, asis defending yourself from attack. Otherwise, it's probably better to let a law enforcement officer apply physical force just because of the legal liability involved.
If that were true every homeless person would pretent they were deaf.
TA workers with legal mishaps in this area have gone way too far.
Like making a ton of noise a foot away from someone is so much less offense then just tapping them on the leg anyway.
No. But you could first politely wake that person up (tap on the shoulder and so on). Then you ask him to leave. If he refuses you can tell him he risks arrest. Then you call a cop.
This way, you don't have to risk injury to yourself. If he assaults you of course you defend yourself.
If the person truly doesn't respond to you, or wake up, then it's time to call FDNY because this person may be ill and you need to rule that out too.
The general opinion here was that you never touch people and doing so was an assault and that is incorrect.
Ah, times have changed. Too many camcorders. (re: Rodney King case)
It's one thing to be polite and restrained in the face of adversity but something entirely else when your life is threatened.
Hey, you don't even need the right lawyer. All you need is the right prosecutors as most ADA's in NY (especially NYC) are incompetent.
The most extensive discussion of this issue is found in United States v. Swarovski, 557 F.2d 40 (2d Cir. 1977), cert.
denied, 434 U.S. 1045 (1978). In Swarovski, federal customs agents made a warrantless arrest of a defendant caught illegally
exporting a military camera. Because the federal agents did not have authority under federal law to make the arrest, they
invoked the citizen's arrest authority provided by section 140.30 of the New York Criminal Procedure Law. The principal
issue in the case was whether the Penal Law and the Criminal Procedure Law provide authority for a citizen's arrest for
violations of federal law, even though federal crimes are not, as indicated above, specifically referred to in those statutes. The
court reviewed the long history of federal law enforcement by state and local officers in New York as set forth in its own past
decisions, such as Marsh v. United States, 29 F.2d 172 (2d Cir. 1928) (upholding arrest of defendant by state officer for
federal misdemeanor under New York law), and United States v. Burgos, 269 F.2d 763 (2d Cir. 1959) (upholding arrest of
defendant by federal customs agents on immigration charges under New York's citizen's arrest provision), and the evolution
of the language of the New York statutes. It concluded that the statutes do provide such authority!
Citizen's arrest ... and case law already involves CAMERAS! Woohoo! Heh.
Where do you FIND this stuff, Selkirk?
--Mark
Of course, this does not mean they would lose the lawsuit, only that it could not be dismissed out of hand.
You REALLY don't get it, do you? And you call yourself a railfan?
S 120.00 Assault in the third degree.
A person is guilty of assault in the third degree when:
1. With intent to cause physical injury to another person, he causes
such injury to such person or to a third person; or
2. He recklessly causes physical injury to another person; or
3. With criminal negligence, he causes physical injury to another
person by means of a deadly weapon or a dangerous instrument.
Assault in the third degree is a class A misdemeanor.
S 120.01 Reckless assault of a child by a child day care provider.
A person is guilty of reckless assault of a child when, being a child
day care provider or an employee thereof, he or she recklessly causes
serious physical injury to a child under the care of such provider or
employee who is less than eleven years of age.
Reckless assault of a child by a child day care provider is a class E
felony.
S 120.03 Vehicular assault in the second degree.
A person is guilty of vehicular assault in the second degree when:
(1) with criminal negligence he causes serious physical injury to
another person, and either
(2) causes such serious physical injury by operation of a vehicle in
violation of subdivision two, three or four of section eleven hundred
ninety-two of the vehicle and traffic law or by operation of a vessel or
public vessel in violation of paragraph (b), (c), (d) or (e) of
subdivision two of section forty-nine-a of the navigation law, or
(3) causes such serious physical injury by operation of a motor
vehicle with a gross vehicle weight rating of more than eighteen
thousand pounds which contains flammable gas, radioactive materials or
explosives in violation of subdivision one of section eleven hundred
ninety-two of the vehicle and traffic law, and such flammable gas,
radioactive materials or explosives is the cause of such serious
physical injury, by operation of a snowmobile in violation of paragraph
(b), (c) or (d) of subdivision one of section 25.24 of the parks,
recreation and historic preservation law or by operation of an all
terrain vehicle as defined in paragraph (a) of subdivision one of
section twenty-two hundred eighty-one of the vehicle and traffic law and
in violation of subdivision two, three, or four of section eleven
hundred ninety-two of the vehicle and traffic law.
Vehicular assault in the second degree is a class E felony.
S 120.04 Vehicular assault in the first degree.
A person is guilty of vehicular assault in the first degree when he:
(1) commits the crime of vehicular assault in the second degree as
defined in section 120.03, and
(2) commits such crime while knowing or having reason to know that:
(a) his license or his privilege of operating a motor vehicle in another
state or his privilege of obtaining a license to operate a motor vehicle
in another state is suspended or revoked and such suspension or
revocation is based upon a conviction in such other state for an offense
which would, if committed in this state, constitute a violation of any
of the provisions of section eleven hundred ninety-two of the vehicle
and traffic law; or (b) his license or his privilege of operating a
motor vehicle in the state or his privilege of obtaining a license
issued by the commissioner of motor vehicles is suspended or revoked and
such suspension or revocation is based upon either a refusal to submit
to a chemical test pursuant to section eleven hundred ninety-four of the
vehicle and traffic law or following a conviction for a violation of any
of the provisions of section eleven hundred ninety-two of the vehicle
and traffic law.
Vehicular assault in the first degree is a class D felony.
S 120.05 Assault in the second degree.
A person is guilty of assault in the second degree when:
1. With intent to cause serious physical injury to another person, he
causes such injury to such person or to a third person; or
2. With intent to cause physical injury to another person, he causes
such injury to such person or to a third person by means of a deadly
weapon or a dangerous instrument; or
3. With intent to prevent a peace officer, police officer, a fireman,
including a fireman acting as a paramedic or emergency medical
technician administering first aid in the course of performance of duty
as such fireman, an emergency medical service paramedic or emergency
medical service technician, or medical or related personnel in a
hospital emergency department, from performing a lawful duty, by means
including releasing or failing to control an animal under circumstances
evincing the actor`s intent that the animal obstruct the lawful activity
of such peace officer, police officer, fireman, paramedic or technician,
he causes physical injury to such peace officer, police officer,
fireman, paramedic, technician or medical or related personnel in a
hospital emergency department; or
4. He recklessly causes serious physical injury to another person by
means of a deadly weapon or a dangerous instrument; or
5. For a purpose other than lawful medical or therapeutic treatment,
he intentionally causes stupor, unconsciousness or other physical
impairment or injury to another person by administering to him, without
his consent, a drug, substance or preparation capable of producing the
same; or
6. In the course of and in furtherance of the commission or attempted
commission of a felony, other than a felony defined in article one
hundred thirty which requires corroboration for conviction, or of
immediate flight therefrom, he, or another participant if there be any,
causes physical injury to a person other than one of the participants;
or
7. Having been charged with or convicted of a crime and while confined
in a correctional facility, as defined in subdivision three of section
forty of the correction law, pursuant to such charge or conviction, with
intent to cause physical injury to another person, he causes such injury
to such person or to a third person; or
8. Being eighteen years old or more and with intent to cause physical
injury to a person less than eleven years old, the defendant recklessly
causes serious physical injury to such person; or
9. Being eighteen years old or more and with intent to cause physical
injury to a person less than seven years old, the defendant causes such
injury to such person; or
10. Acting at a place the person knows, or reasonably should know, is
on school grounds and with intent to cause physical injury, he or she:
(a) causes such injury to an employee of a school or public school
district; or
(b) not being a student of such school or public school district,
causes physical injury to another, and such other person is a student of
such school who is attending or present for educational purposes. For
purposes of this subdivision the term "school grounds" shall have the
meaning set forth in subdivision fourteen of section 220.00 of this
chapter.
11. With intent to cause physical injury to a train operator, ticket
inspector, conductor or bus operator employed by any transit agency,
authority or company, public or private, whose operation is authorized
by New York state or any of its political subdivisions, he or she causes
physical injury to such train operator, ticket inspector, conductor or
bus operator while such employee is performing an assigned duty on, or
directly related to, the operation of a train or bus.
Assault in the second degree is a class D felony.
S 120.06 Gang assault in the second degree.
A person is guilty of gang assault in the second degree when, with
intent to cause physical injury to another person and when aided by two
or more other persons actually present, he causes serious physical
injury to such person or to a third person.
Gang assault in the second degree is a class C felony.
S 120.07 Gang assault in the first degree.
A person is guilty of gang assault in the first degree when, with
intent to cause serious physical injury to another person and when aided
by two or more other persons actually present, he causes serious
physical injury to such person or to a third person.
Gang assault in the first degree is a class B felony.
S 120.08 Assault on a peace officer, police officer, fireman or
emergency medical services professional.
A person is guilty of assault on a peace officer, police officer,
fireman or emergency medical services professional when, with intent to
prevent a peace officer, police officer, a fireman, including a fireman
acting as a paramedic or emergency medical technician administering
first aid in the course of performance of duty as such fireman, or an
emergency medical service paramedic or emergency medical service
technician, from performing a lawful duty, he causes serious physical
injury to such peace officer, police officer, fireman, paramedic or
technician.
Assault on a peace officer, police officer, fireman or emergency
medical services professional is a class C felony.
S 120.10 Assault in the first degree.
A person is guilty of assault in the first degree when:
1. With intent to cause serious physical injury to another person, he
causes such injury to such person or to a third person by means of a
deadly weapon or a dangerous instrument; or
2. With intent to disfigure another person seriously and permanently,
or to destroy, amputate or disable permanently a member or organ of his
body, he causes such injury to such person or to a third person; or
3. Under circumstances evincing a depraved indifference to human life,
he recklessly engages in conduct which creates a grave risk of death to
another person, and thereby causes serious physical injury to another
person; or
4. In the course of and in furtherance of the commission or attempted
commission of a felony or of immediate flight therefrom, he, or another
participant if there be any, causes serious physical injury to a person
other than one of the participants.
Assault in the first degree is a class B felony.
S 120.11 Aggravated assault upon a police officer or a peace officer.
A person is guilty of aggravated assault upon a police officer or a
peace officer when, with intent to cause serious physical injury to a
person whom he knows or reasonably should know to be a police officer or
a peace officer engaged in the course of performing his official duties,
he causes such injury by means of a deadly weapon or dangerous
instrument.
Aggravated assault upon a police officer or a peace officer is a class
B felony.
S 120.12 Aggravated assault upon a person less than eleven years old.
A person is guilty of aggravated assault upon a person less than
eleven years old when being eighteen years old or more the defendant
commits the crime of assault in the third degree as defined in section
120.00 of this article upon a person less than eleven years old and has
been previously convicted of such crime upon a person less than eleven
years old within the preceding three years.
Aggravated assault upon a person less than eleven years old is a class
E felony.
S 120.13 Menacing in the first degree.
A person is guilty of menacing in the first degree when he or she
commits the crime of menacing in the second degree and has been
previously convicted of the crime of menacing in the second degree
within the preceding ten years.
Menacing in the first degree is a class E felony.
S 120.14 Menacing in the second degree.
A person is guilty of menacing in the second degree when:
1. He or she intentionally places or attempts to place another person
in reasonable fear of physical injury, serious physical injury or death
by displaying a deadly weapon, dangerous instrument or what appears to
be a pistol, revolver, rifle, shotgun, machine gun or other firearm; or
2. He or she repeatedly follows a person or engages in a course of
conduct or repeatedly commits acts over a period of time intentionally
placing or attempting to place another person in reasonable fear of
physical injury, serious physical injury or death; or
3. He or she commits the crime of menacing in the third degree in
violation of that part of a duly served order of protection, or such
order which the defendant has actual knowledge of because he or she was
present in court when such order was issued, pursuant to article eight
of the family court act, section 530.12 of the criminal procedure law,
or an order of protection issued by a court of competent jurisdiction in
another state, territorial or tribal jurisdiction, which directed the
respondent or defendant to stay away from the person or persons on whose
behalf the order was issued.
Menacing in the second degree is a class A misdemeanor.
S 120.15 Menacing in the third degree.
A person is guilty of menacing in the third degree when, by physical
menace, he or she intentionally places or attempts to place another
person in fear of death, imminent serious physical injury or physical
injury.
Menacing in the third degree is a class B misdemeanor.
S 120.16 Hazing in the first degree.
A person is guilty of hazing in the first degree when, in the course
of another person`s initiation into or affiliation with any
organization, he intentionally or recklessly engages in conduct which
creates a substantial risk of physical injury to such other person or a
third person and thereby causes such injury.
Hazing in the first degree is a class A misdemeanor.
S 120.17 Hazing in the second degree.
A person is guilty of hazing in the second degree when, in the course
of another person`s initiation or affiliation with any organization, he
intentionally or recklessly engages in conduct which creates a
substantial risk of physical injury to such other person or a third
person.
Hazing in the second degree is a violation.
S 120.20 Reckless endangerment in the second degree.
A person is guilty of reckless endangerment in the second degree when
he recklessly engages in conduct which creates a substantial risk of
serious physical injury to another person.
Reckless endangerment in the second degree is a class A misdemeanor.
S 120.25 Reckless endangerment in the first degree.
A person is guilty of reckless endangerment in the first degree when,
under circumstances evincing a depraved indifference to human life, he
recklessly engages in conduct which creates a grave risk of death to
another person.
Reckless endangerment in the first degree is a class D felony.
S 120.30 Promoting a suicide attempt.
A person is guilty of promoting a suicide attempt when he
intentionally causes or aids another person to attempt suicide.
Promoting a suicide attempt is a class E felony.
S 120.35 Promoting a suicide attempt; when punishable as attempt to
commit murder.
A person who engages in conduct constituting both the offense of
promoting a suicide attempt and the offense of attempt to commit murder
may not be convicted of attempt to commit murder unless he causes or
aids the suicide attempt by the use of duress or deception.
S 120.40 Definitions.
For purposes of sections 120.45, 120.50, 120.55 and 120.60 of this
article:
1. "Kidnapping" shall mean a kidnapping crime defined in article one
hundred thirty-five of this chapter.
2. "Unlawful imprisonment" shall mean an unlawful imprisonment felony
crime defined in article one hundred thirty-five of this chapter.
3. "Sex offense" shall mean a felony defined in article one hundred
thirty of this chapter, sexual misconduct, as defined in section 130.20
of this chapter, sexual abuse in the third degree as defined in section
130.55 of this chapter or sexual abuse in the second degree as defined
in section 130.60 of this chapter.
4. "Immediate family" means the spouse, former spouse, parent, child,
sibling, or any other person who regularly resides or has regularly
resided in the household of a person.
5. "Specified predicate crime" means:
a. a violent felony offense;
b. a crime defined in section 130.20, 130.25, 130.30, 130.40, 130.45,
130.55, 130.60, 130.70 or 255.25;
c. assault in the third degree, as defined in section 120.00; menacing
in the first degree, as defined in section 120.13; menacing in the
second degree, as defined in section 120.14; coercion in the first
degree, as defined in section 135.65; coercion in the second degree, as
defined in section 135.60; aggravated harassment in the second degree,
as defined in section 240.30; harassment in the first degree, as defined
in section 240.25; menacing in the third degree, as defined in section
120.15; criminal mischief in the third degree, as defined in section
145.05; criminal mischief in the second degree, as defined in section
145.10, criminal mischief in the first degree, as defined in section
145.12; criminal tampering in the first degree, as defined in section
145.20; arson in the fourth degree, as defined in section 150.05; arson
in the third degree, as defined in section 150.10; criminal contempt in
the first degree, as defined in section 215.51; endangering the welfare
of a child, as defined in section 260.10; or
d. stalking in the fourth degree, as defined in section 120.45;
stalking in the third degree, as defined in section 120.50; stalking in
the second degree, as defined in section 120.55; or
e. an offense in any other jurisdiction which includes all of the
essential elements of any such crime for which a sentence to a term of
imprisonment in excess of one year or a sentence of death was authorized
and is authorized in this state irrespective of whether such sentence
was imposed.
S 120.45 Stalking in the fourth degree.
A person is guilty of stalking in the fourth degree when he or she
intentionally, and for no legitimate purpose, engages in a course of
conduct directed at a specific person, and knows or reasonably should
know that such conduct:
1. is likely to cause reasonable fear of material harm to the physical
health, safety or property of such person, a member of such person`s
immediate family or a third party with whom such person is acquainted;
or
2. causes material harm to the mental or emotional health of such
person, where such conduct consists of following, telephoning or
initiating communication or contact with such person, a member of such
person`s immediate family or a third party with whom such person is
acquainted, and the actor was previously clearly informed to cease that
conduct; or
3. is likely to cause such person to reasonably fear that his or her
employment, business or career is threatened, where such conduct
consists of appearing, telephoning or initiating communication or
contact at such person`s place of employment or business, and the actor
was previously clearly informed to cease that conduct.
Stalking in the fourth degree is a class B misdemeanor.
S 120.50 Stalking in the third degree.
A person is guilty of stalking in the third degree when he or she:
1. Commits the crime of stalking in the fourth degree in violation of
section 120.45 of this article against three or more persons, in three
or more separate transactions, for which the actor has not been
previously convicted; or
2. Commits the crime of stalking in the fourth degree in violation of
section 120.45 of this article against any person, and has previously
been convicted, within the preceding ten years of a specified predicate
crime, as defined in subdivision five of section 120.40 of this article,
and the victim of such specified predicate crime is the victim, or an
immediate family member of the victim, of the present offense; or
3. With intent to harass, annoy or alarm a specific person,
intentionally engages in a course of conduct directed at such person
which is likely to cause such person to reasonably fear physical injury
or serious physical injury, the commission of a sex offense against, or
the kidnapping, unlawful imprisonment or death of such person or a
member of such person`s immediate family; or
4. Commits the crime of stalking in the fourth degree and has
previously been convicted within the preceding ten years of stalking in
the fourth degree.
Stalking in the third degree is a class A misdemeanor.
S 120.55 Stalking in the second degree.
A person is guilty of stalking in the second degree when he or she:
1. Commits the crime of stalking in the third degree as defined in
subdivision three of section 120.50 of this article and in the course of
and in furtherance of the commission of such offense: (i) displays, or
possesses and threatens the use of, a firearm, pistol, revolver, rifle,
shotgun, machine gun, electronic dart gun, electronic stun gun, cane
sword, billy, blackjack, bludgeon, metal knuckles, chuka stick, sand
bag, sandclub, slingshot, slungshot, shirken, "Kung Fu Star", dagger,
dangerous knife, dirk, razor, stiletto, imitation pistol, dangerous
instrument, deadly instrument or deadly weapon; or (ii) displays what
appears to be a pistol, revolver, rifle, shotgun, machine gun or other
firearm; or
2. Commits the crime of stalking in the third degree in violation of
subdivision three of section 120.50 of this article against any person,
and has previously been convicted, within the preceding five years, of a
specified predicate crime as defined in subdivision five of section
120.40 of this article, and the victim of such specified predicate crime
is the victim, or an immediate family member of the victim, of the
present offense; or
3. Commits the crime of stalking in the fourth degree and has
previously been convicted of stalking in the third degree as defined in
subdivision four of section 120.50 of this article against any person;
or
4. Being twenty-one years of age or older, repeatedly follows a person
under the age of fourteen or engages in a course of conduct or
repeatedly commits acts over a period of time intentionally placing or
attempting to place such person who is under the age of fourteen in
reasonable fear of physical injury, serious physical injury or death.
Stalking in the second degree is a class E felony.
S 120.60 Stalking in the first degree.
A person is guilty of stalking in the first degree when he or she
commits the crime of stalking in the third degree as defined in
subdivision three of section 120.50 or stalking in the second degree as
defined in section 120.55 of this article and, in the course and
furtherance thereof, he or she:
1. intentionally or recklessly causes physical injury to the victim of
such crime; or
2. commits a class A misdemeanor defined in article one hundred thirty
of this chapter, or a class E felony defined in section 130.25, 130.40
or 130.85 of this chapter, or a class D felony defined in section 130.30
or 130.45 of this chapter.
Stalking in the first degree is a class D felony.
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/nycodes/c82/a27.html
New York law is an interesting sausage ... lots of chunky things inside, lots of pork. :)
The OFFICIAL answer to the question though is "Hey, you're not gonna fool me again with that damn question. It's been 25 years since the leprechauns first asked me that one. I know, and I'm not telling you."
Yes, the Porridge bird IS John Ashcroft, and the REASON why the Eagle sores. (grin)
That's not clear.
"It's not within a patrol officer's duties though to offer legal advice on civil matters. So I give him a score on his answer."
If it was a civil matter -but again, not clear.
"battery" doesn't exist as a criminal act.
Sure it does. NYS just uses a different vocabulary word.
Let the beatings begin (with a bit of restraint) ...
He didn't back you up. You didn't understand what you just read.
The previous descriptions of "assault and battery" are translated in NYS code to "menacing and assault." Thus, what happened to Salaam is "assault" under English common law and many state jurisdictions, and would be classified as "menacing" in New York State.
New York State code differentiates between the threat and the actual injury just as other states do. Different terms are substituted, however, as I've shown.
If you slap someone with an open hand and cause injury in New York, you're going to be prosecuted. It isn't trivial, and it can cause serious injury (such as barotrauma to the ear, deafness, or an orbital fracture).
Do yourself a favor. You're retired, and you're out of touch with the penal code. Leave it at that, and stop whining about people who are trying to teach you something.
Hmm, I see someone took a triple dose of nasty pills this morning.
That was totally uncalled for, IMO.
Peace,
ANDEE
I believe that comes from having taken college-level basic law courses. IIRC in CIVIL cases the threat of force is considered "assault", while the actual use of force is considered "battery". Civil law and criminal law do not always coincide however.
You didn't read Selkirk's posting of the law or my reply.
So I'll present it again:
Assault and battery correspond to the threat of violence and the performance of that violence, respectively. If you read Selkirk's post, you will see that, in New York, "Menacing and Assault" replace the terms "Assault and Battery" - but the principle is the same.
Go back and read Selkirk's post - all of it.
Not all threats are merely harassment.
In essence, you're absolutely right ... but in PRACTICE, that dog won't hunt. (grin)
Of course, a smart ADA will exploit whatever he/she can.
OK ... a "SMART" ADA knows when to hold 'em, knows when to fold 'em ... if you want to WIN a case, then you DON'T pyth off a judge with a stuffed docket, cops who have to come in on their DAY OFF to testify, and a raft of others by bringing a petit case in front of the court. At least not CRIMINAL court.
When a perp is arrested, kiss those "punitive damages" byebye ... "punitive" was extracted by "the system" ... OFF the table. When you go to civil trial with JUST "compensatories" and no "punitives" then there goes your commission. Jury/Summary is limited to the ACTUAL costs which means that the plaintiff recovers BUPKISS (no comments, please from the peanut gallery) and you get a THIRD of bupkiss. No, the REALITY as practiced under NYS law is designed to protect the LAWYERS, not the "shovee" ... as long as the perp don't get arrested or go to jail, then the PLAINTIFF can go for "gane mas dinero" ... that's what makes the law the law, the "contingency fee plus expenses."
They AIN'T gonna screw with that - and that's why this is why sausage tastes like chicken in this state. :)
Next January, a lawyer like that may be one bullet away from the Presidency.
Vote for Kerry/Edwards - they're not as bad as Bush/Cheney.
Vote Bush - he's not as bad as Saddam Hussein.
Vote Hussein - he's not as bad as bin Laden.
To use the sand analogy once more, many of these fools seem to believe that throwing it into the gears will make the machine run better. One image I have of this is kids hiding behind their mamas' skirts (that is, the protection they enjoy from living in a generally law-abiding civil society) sticking their tongues out at their family and saying "nah nah!". Knowing that the very structure upon which they feel secure and confident enough to make (in many cases) outlandish claims of "injustice" will protect them from personal and societal harm.
They can't see the forest for the trees.
No, *battery* requires those things. *Assault* can be as simple as a threat - a closed fist pulled back, a weapon held in striking position, etc. When you raise your fist it's assault; when you deck the guy it's battery.
And why do we want people to get in trouble for trivial things? Well, trivial abuses, especially when committed by those in authority, but in general as well, tend to slide the slippery slope to become serious abuses if not nipped in the bud.
If state troopers stopped pulling people over on the highway for (in the big picture) trivial infractions such as speeding or improper lane change, pretty soon everyone will be driving around like animals (even more so than now).
If no one stands up for following procedure to the letter in the trial of that scumbag Zacarias Moussaoui, then procedures will be abridged in the subsequent trials of people who might not be scumbags - say, your next-door neighbor who maybe overstayed his visa or had some bureaucratic snafu with Immigration - the hell with his right to a fair trial, we'll just throw away the key like we did with Moussaoui.
If we allowed evidence collected improperly (without a warrant or probable cause) to stand in a court of law, well, pretty soon 3/4 the evidence out there will have been collected improperly since the officers know it'll stand anyway, and it makes their job easier to act without justification and let the ACLU ask questions later.
If we accept harassment of railfan photographers, even if the badge does a couple things he/she's not supposed to do, as necessary to improve security, who will be next on the list for harassment? Railfans certainly weren't the first to be targeted, and even more certainly they won't be the last. And the sloppy techniques we fail to protest will soon become standard practice.
But what can and must we do to make the mass majority of people in this country understand how truly serious this issue is?
Maybe the NYS definitions are different - I'm no lawyer, after all :) All I know is Don't do the stuff I listed above, lest I become Bruno's temporary cellmate at Riker's...
http://www.tastymanatees.com/archives/000341.html
Backasswards - welcome to New York. :)
Got WAY too many "cop buddies" for my own good, a personality flaw of mine that dates back to the 1970's (cops and I get along REAL well). That all said, you "know or should have known" the realities of "if we're going to do this paperwork and then have to take a day off to APPEAR, then THIS chit better be real. Don't want to look like a sucker when the perp smiles at me and flips me the bird as they WALK. HALF a bust is better than NO bust. I'll bet you've been there yourself. :)
FACT: "Assault and battery" is a *CIVIL* matter ... you write up the eport, you're done. Battle of the witnesses. No witnesses, no issue. YOUR job as a cop was to deal with someone whose "assault" was CRIMINAL and nothing more. Assault is usually a charge copped to when you don't have enough PROFF that it was "attempted murder." When SUCH is the case, then you get to do a perp walk in NYS. Lacking that, it's up to the lawyers and the medical paperwork at 1-800-INJURED to sort out.
A *lot* of cops never come to realize that THEIR job is really "domestic military" and if nobody's really shooting or dead, you turn it over to the MP's ... back in my formative years, assholes were dealt with by a simple "ride around the block," beatne, hosed and told "not worth the paperwork." Then, as you said, camcorders. No more "backseat justice" and it's over - now it's either "haul them in and tell the desk sarge, "asshole" ... or give them a "police report" and send them on their merry way to a yellow pages nearest them.
BOTTOM LINE: Salaam *does* have a potential CIVIL CASE ... but not a CRIMINAL one ... and so it goes. Moo. :)
http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2004/05/02/story948455514.asp
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/print.asp?page=story_5-3-2003_pg4_4
Run sin the family ... but it gets better, heh ... (what's he gonna do, ARREST me? When we was kids, I'd arrest HIM!) ...
http://www.csoonline.com/movers/032204_2341.html ... Hahahaha ... I'm lovin' it. But yeah, cop family, cop wipers, cop shocks, cop motors, cop in the woodpile and cop an attitude. Moo. :)
So the monorail blows. Bring enough bling, and you'll get comped. Heh.
You REALLY don't get it, do you?
What that LACMTA employee did to this man is wrong, plain and simple!
Would you like or appreciate it if this happenned to you?
And you call yourself a railfan?
I realize you are with a different agency 3,000 miles away but why would you take the side of Sallam over a fellow operator? Aren't you a union member?
I don't know, those pictures seem pretty artisic, i can imgine your stance right now trying to get those angles. Thats clue #1.
I wouldn't see aproblem with a few questions, but those two things are a little obvious. How long did this go on for?
Just curious, did LACMTA issue that vest and safety tag ?
Bill "Newkirk"
So a LACMTA employee issued the vest and tag and not LACMTA management ? I'm not sure whether you are an employee of LACMTA or not. Is this safety tag a photo ID ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Sorry about the operator grabbing at you...next time at least make sure it's a blonde of the opposite sex...:0)
Nah, just a west coast version of Daruius.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
"I would have canned him for that. Other than getting his name/number down with location, time, and train cab number and reporting it to the police/his supervisors, I would have decked him with my cane and have other chicanos in the area kick his ass hard for being an idiot."
This Hispanic guy recently turned 80 and has three kids. He lives where I live and his kids live in Glendale CA. He drove for a little over four decades with RTD/Metro. He even once showed me his old RTD id as well as his newly-issued METRO id, both of which say "RETIRED" on it. (yes, can ride for free for life with the ID). He has driven the mean streets of LA, especially in Watts, East LA, Echo Park, and Montebello sections. He has only missed work only twice, once in Aug 1965 because of the Watts Riots.
Anyhow, I though I'd include my US$0.02 worth in this. :)
When the N train was entering Queensboro Plaza, I noticed:
- Signals on the southbound 7 line were red
- A southbound 7 train was on the curve, waiting at one of the signals
- A northbound 7 train waiting across the platform for the arriving N train.
And then, at 33rd Street, I noticed a Manhattan-bound work train on the middle track.
What a weird night!
A good article in USA Today states that 21 cities are adding or restoring lines.
From the article:
>>>>In 1988, New Orleans opened a new streetcar line that runs along the Mississippi River. It proved to be a huge success and led to the rebuilding of the Canal Street line. The $160 million line, with 80% paid in federal funds, attracted 125,000 riders the first week it was back in service in April.<<<<<
This is what the Hudson Bergen light Rail attracts each week! An it's a trolley!
The courts had a different opinion on that matter if I recall correctly...
Mark
I think it was all of the above. With the GM and oil folks at the top of the ripple on down. But I didn't live in the 30's-50's. But human nature never changes.
Mark
No, not even when traffic jams instantly materialized on every interstate built . . .
There was a reason that the commuter train survived.
Good one.....
General motors pleaded guilty and now we're paying hundreds of millions installing the lightrails and trolley they destroyed.
Jeff, you just might be onto a pattern here. Hartford (they ripped their tracks out decades ago) had a proposal for a Griffin Line light rail route from Bloomfield to downtown. But that fell through and now ConnDOT is proposing busways. It seems to me like it's the major Northeastern and older Midwestern cities (except maybe Baltimore, Pittsburgh, Buffalo and St. Louis) that are ignoring the success of light rail. All the newly-opened and proposed streetcar/LRV systems that I hear about are down south or out west - Houston, Dallas, Charlotte, New Orleans (Canal St Line), Denver (C Line), Memphis, Jacksonville, Sacramento, Portland (Streetcar), Tampa, LA (Gold Line), Salt Lake City, Richmond and Tacoma. Minneapolis's new Hiawatha Line and Washignton's proposed Anacostia are possibly the exceptions to this - unless I'm missing any others.
But for Boston, Hartford, New York and Philadelphia - what gives?
That's why good urban planning has to be practiced along with building new rail lines.
Actually, Canal Street in New Orleans could use some revitalization. Between the souvenir shops there are lots of empty storefronts and the upper floors of most of the buildings are vacant. I'd love to see all that space turned into apartments or condos. I think that'd be hot property for young professionals who want to live close to the action. I hope some sort of development like this is carried out to compliment the streetcar line's reactivation. Maybe it will, if the streetcar increases property values and makes developers want to invest in that area once again.
Mark
New Orleans' streetcars are much more than "tourist" attractions. The Riverfront line is the only "mostly" touris route. St Charles and Canal serve commuters too, and mostly commuters. Sure, they attract their normal tourists, but are also used heavily by the locals for commuting. That is one of the reasons the Canal St line's cars had to be air conditioned, as opposed to the St Charles' old vintage units. It would have been a hard sell if they were going to pull the locals out of their air conditioned buses and put them on sweaty streeetcars without AC.
They're marginal in downtowns that see less "action" than in prior decades and they don't have to contend with other traffic
Interestingly, Canal St is just a street like that, lost most of it's action years ago. Canal St is a shadow of it's former self. Aside from the few blocks closest to the River, Canal is not a touristy street. The tourists stop around Bourbon St or Charondolett St (aside from at Mardis Gras when Canal is a major parade route). Once you pass that, Canal looks much like Jamaica Ave did in the 1980's - lined with empty stores in beautiful and large buildings. Empty theaters, and "Jamaica Ave-like" junk stores in the stores that are occupied. They hope this will change once the streetcars bring the tourists a little past Bourbon St. Once you pass I-10, it's certainly not a touristy area, and totally residential, etc for the majority of it's route.
They're useless in traffic.
While there is some street running on the St Charles line, most of New Orleans' streetcars run in the middle of their streets, in what they call "neutral ground".
I dont' know where exactly they terminated to the south and the freight trains began.
Was there ever really a streetcar named Desire?
As per tour guide during anglisizing, the street named Desir'e was incorrectly translated to desire.
Arti
Mark
Anyway, the rumour has that Desire is also funded.
Arti
Mark
http://world.nycsubway.org/us/neworleans/
Actually, the Desire corridor route is in jeopardy becayse of this dispute with Norfolk Southern. Everyone wants the route, it's funded, and waiting to go, but it may have to be cmpletely scrapped, or truncated at the NS tracks. AN underpass can't be used because of the flooding nature of New orleans. An overpass is opposed because it will ruin the historic feel of the area - so there it sits. NS rfefuses to allow an at grade crossing no matter how many lights bells and gates the city offered to use.
Amazing. There NIMBY's are non-existent, there is funding, everyone seems to want it, but then a hurdle like this is thrown in.
1) Convince the residents that the advantages of a well-designed overpass far outweigh the minuses, and then go ahead and do it with resident input (pay off the NIMBYS as needed to shut them up).
2) Get the governor involved and play hardball with NS. There are ways states can do this (the railroads do not hold all the cards, though they hold most of them). Cooperate with the trolley and we'll offer you some carrots. Screw with us and we'll hurt you.
Where's Robert Boyle when you need him? :0)
I think the overpass could be designed to fit in. If the Parisians can make els that fit the Fin de Siecle look of Paris, New Orleans can make an overpassed trimmed up with wrought iron and gaslamps that would blend in with rest of the Vieux Carre.
I don't follow how Robert Boyle fits into this...please fill me in.
Mark
He was the director of the PA when AirTrain was being planned. AirTrain's main opponents were the airlines, not community NIMBY (what NIMBY there was was encouraged and paid for by airline money). The airlines sued the PA in court over the use of PFT money to build AirTrain because they wanted that money used exclusively within the airport for terminal and other improvements (helping them send their own money to their profit line). Boyle eventually played hardball with them, telling American's Don Carty, for example, that Carty could forget about his new terminal at JFK unless American dropped its lawsuit.
The result? The airlines surrendered and withdrew the lawsuit. It was still pursued by a small group of people in SE Queens, and the Court of Appeals upheld the PA's position completely.
The facts in the New Orleans situation are different, but the presence of a determined, smart bulldog like Boyle would help a lot.
: )
I definitely agree with you though, that New Orleans needs tough and determined leadership to make all this happen.
Does anyone know how Mayor Marc Morial stands on all of this?
Mark
Or we can hire a couple of call girls to sleep with those suites at NS and threaten to tell their wives that.....
Ooops. Sounds like Jersey Politics! ;-)
Ever hear a New Orleans accent? Let's just say accents aren't the only thing New Jersey and New Orleans have in common...
Mark
Here's one of the photos, apparently, the photo links changed in subwayspot.com because the don't come up anymore in my thread (don't know why because they are still there at subwayspot), but here's some of the of the photos:
From the travel agency site http://www.rtttravel.com/cruises/ships/qe2.htm: A top of the line suite (Q1, for Queen's Grill restaurant, category 1) has a per person rate of $29900, $30150, or $30190, double occupancy, across the Atlantic Ocean.
Unknown: whether the Titanic ticket was also per person, double occupancy.
Your call. The Queen Mary 2 suite is probably bigger than the one on the "Titanic" was.
Like life boats.
Amateurs built the Ark... Professionals built the Titanic.
Plus things were different. Taxation and the value of money and the likes.
I'd like to work on the QM2 sometime for at least one contract. owned by Cunard(carnival folks), but it's harder than I imagined it seems like.
* ryan
* ryan
Mike
BTW, Sunday's weather report looks very bad :(
-Chris
There aren't any other "operational" BMT/IND SMEE's for it to run with. Unless the SMEEs in the transit museum are operational, and they are holding out on us.
Robert
Robert
You Basically have yourself a nice 6-car MOD train.
Trevor
R10#3184
R11#8013
R16#6305
R16#6339
an R30 set
an R32 set
an R42 set
a 10 car MOD train.
til next time
I'm scared ...
til next time
Oh, the humanity!
Seems like bye-bye R16's.
til next time
til next time
til next time
til next time
Gerry
I hate to break it to you, but the E is an 8th Avenue local.
Besides, it seems the R32's only run on the F more often during rush hour or weekends. Just avoid the F then.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
You forgot the R110A/B.
-RJM
Sounds backwards to me, but we'll see. I like the R46s because that's what I've always had, but I'm comfortable with either.
til next time
The E (which has a MUCH lower car requirement than the F) is supposed to be all R-32. Perhaps THAT's what's being straightened out -- better compliance with the car assignment.
David
David
I don't think there are enough R32's in Jamaica to equip the entire F fleet.
-RJM
-Broadway Buffer
The R32 F is great especially on the Culver line and Smith-9th. What a great view that is and also the approach to the CI station = I'll take an R32 F over R46 F anyday. In fact I say give the F all the Jamacia R32's and give the R46's to the E/G/R/V
Da Hui
As to my preference, I'd like to see more R32's on the F. R46's tend to get pretty boring, especially when riding one between 4th Avenue and Church Avenue. In fact, I have family living near the Church Avenue F station, but I ride to any of the other stations that are served by the B35 bus, and transfer to that in order to avoid that part of the F line.
They don't even bother to read the signs. They just get off when they end up at Queensbridge and curse out the C/R.
It is exactly how people think. I remember before the R33s were retired, one weekend, during a GO, the "5" was only operating between 149th St-G.C. & Bowling Green. The "5" was only operating trains from the Woodlawn yard, namely R62s & 9200-9300 series R33MLs.
This R62 rolled into Grand Central, entirely signed up "5-Bowling Green" from front to back. The conductor made annoucements at every stop.
When the train arrived at Bowling Green and the conductor announced last stop, not only did the passengers not get off, they didn't even flinch-nada, nothing, zip.
The conductor had to keep flicking the lights on/off to get the passengers' attention. Those damn passengers had the nerve to get off the train and walk, in some cases, three cars to get to the conductor and curse him out for not making annoucements.
He even pointed to all of the correctly signed signs and they were still cursing him out.
A few weekends, the 5 was diverted to Times Square via express and the 3 was bumped to the local track. On one of those weekends, I boarded an R-33 5 train, signed properly, at 96th Street, along with a large crowd. Approaching Times Square, the C/R announced that it was the last stop. The woman behind me expressed bewilderment that the train was terminating at Times Square rather than the usual 14th Street.
When was she last on a 3 train that looked anything like that?
Prove it to me with some documentation.
Common sense tells you that the newer R46 which is more spacious and devoid of that screeching brake on the R32 is the better car. The R46 has been a staple on the F for years. No F rider asked for or wanted R32's.
-RJM
No, the Q train riders complained when the R40's arrived on the Brighton line in 10/97. They didn't appreciate the removal of the newest cars in the system to that point from their line. Not to be outdone, B riders complained about the R68's, especially those who were overweight.
David
Some riders probably have a preference for bench or bucket seating.
I don't know, you tell me. You claim passengers love the sleek appearance of the R-46 but since you can't back up that claim, I don't have to believe.
Keep contriving more fantasies that suit your tastes.
Only 1 out of approximately 25 trains I saw today on the (A) was an R32/38 (couldn't tell which, it was between stations).
Someone take them off, or I shoot the dog!
\\Julian
Sorry, this is an all-ages board ;)
\\Julian
Passengers don't care about too many of one car type or too few of another. They'll gladly take a set of BU gate cars as long as it moves.
On the other hand, if you're suggesting that there's too much service.... :-)
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
We want Red, not Bland =) (or New... Newbirds?)
\\Julian
Smear-o-vision polarizer on front, uncomfortable seats, and visible decay all over... at least the 38s aren't held together with something resembling duct tape!
\\Julian
It will mean the end of the rail fan window on the A line,when the 160 get in....
Oh..the agony of it all...
Well, I'm ressurecting the challenge!
If you are interested in playing a softball game against the Straps state your intentions!
We will be meeting again July 31st, and/or August 7th. Most likely East River Park, which is a great field to hold a game. We've played there twice.
Form your team, get organized, do whatever!
We (I'm playing for their team, those who post on both sides are free to choose their side) challenge you!
I hope you guys accept the challenge, and I hope people from SubTalk who want to play show up. I'll be posting updates regarding the time, date, location etc.
:P
My concern (playing for the Straps team, sorry ;-) ) is if I'll have a game that day. I don't plan on it.
It's personal now!
SubwaySpot.com Vs. NYCRail.com!
ROFL
SAS
Isn't the average age of a Subtalker like 45 and the average age of a Strappie about 13?
Welcome to my killfile.
By the way: I'm coming back.
and I still post there all the time...because It's fun...
so should you.
-Broadway Buffer
WHUP THEIR BUTTS,S.T.....
Vince
Tell us the results if the game does go on.
I will be making a flyer and posting it on SubwaySpot.com with all the info.
All you need to know for now is that August 7th is the date. That is a Saturday.
I hope to see as many SubTalkers there as possible!
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
someone please fill me in...
All the info
Thanks to Ed Levine for supplying the original paper copies!
-Dave
Thanks to Ed Levine for supplying the original paper copies!
-Dave
As to the question within the thread, the cars have always been configured as they are now: full cab on the #1 end, 1/3 cab on the #2 end. However, when they were new the cars could be operated from either end -- I rode several times with the #2 cab out. Nowadays the #2 cabs aren't used at all by crews, but there's equipment in there that would probably be very difficult (and expensive) to relocate.
David
D to Brighton!
David
til next time
The fare is $75 coach and $175 first class, it includes a box lunch and admission to the Danbury RR Museum.
Contact Metro-North Group slaes at 212-499-4398 for more info.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Truthfully, an announcement like this should be repeated a few times, and also listed in the Upcoming Events page.
Please send Dave Pirmann a note via Feedback so he can list it.
Metro-North will operate a rare mileage fantrip over the Beacon Line,
including a stopover at the Danbury Railway Museum on Sunday, September
12. You will also have the oportunity to ride (for first class fare) in
one of the ex Phoebie-Snow observation cars now used by the railroad
president.
=============================
Sept. 12, SUN: MTA Metro-North's Beacon Line Railfan Trip,departing
Grand Central Terminal (GCT) at 8:45 AM and traveling along the former New
York Central's scenic Hudson Line to Beacon, NY. From Beacon, the trip
will run east to Danbury, CT, via the little used former New Haven RR
Maybrook Line. The line passes through Beacon, Fishkill, Hopewell
Junction and along Whaley Lake in Dutchess County. The trip will include
a stop at the Danbury Railway Museum. On its return to Grand Central, the
train will travel south on the Danbury Branch, then west on the New Haven
mainline to GCT, arriving at 6:30 PM. The 200 mile trip will include
photo stops and runbys. Fare includes a commemorative ticket, an official
souvenir timetable and a box lunch. Tickets by reservation only.
Fare: adults $75, child (11 and under) $55. Limited First Class seating
is available in two of the former Erie Lackawanna Phoebe Snow
observation cars for $175. For tickets and information:
Metro-North Group Travel, 420 Lexington Ave., 9th Fl., New York, NY 10017.
Telephone: 212-499-4398, or e-mail: Groupsales@mnr.org
I hope to attend this once-in-a-lifetime trip, but I'm not sure.
Your pal,
Fred
David: I can't e-mail you directly. Please print your e-mail address here or e-mail me at RedbirdR33@hotmail.com.
Larry, RedbirdR33
BTW: My email is fashuttle-subtalk@yahoo.com and is the same address if you follow my instructions.
Enjoy!
Your pal,
Broke
Yeah, why do these people bring there children when they know there children might start acting up(IE: Bathroom ever so often, being hungry, crying, etc...), if I want to hear that, I'd goto a movie theater. ;)
In early June, about 100 photographers crowded onto Manhattan subway trains and snapped pictures of each other in protest of the Metropolitan Transportation Authority's proposed ban on photography in subways and other public transit.
Apparently the London Underground [subway} has its share of "issues," shall we say. It also has its share of wise-ass train conductors. Some of their primo comments were collected by the London Evening Standard:
Some of the best announcements
9 July 2004
"I am the captain of your train and we will be departing shortly. We will be cruising at an altitude of approximately zero feet, and our scheduled arrival time in Morden is 3.15pm. The temperature in Morden is approximately 15 degrees Celsius, and Morden is in the same time zone as Mill Hill East so there's no need to adjust your watches."
"This is the Line Control Room at Baker Street. The Bakerloo line is running normally today, so you may expect delays to all destinations."
"We will shortly be arriving at Waterloo, then I think we will carry right on through the Channel Tunnel and spend the weekend in Paris."
"May I remind you to take your rubbish with you. Despite the fact that you are in something that is metal, round, filthy and smells, this is a Tube train and not a bin on wheels."
"Your delay this evening is caused by the line controller suffering from elbow and backside syndrome, not knowing his elbow from his backside."
"We're sorry for the delay. This is due to the incompetence of the signal operators in the Aldgate area."
"Please note that the beeping noise coming from the doors means that the doors are about to close. It does not mean throw yourself or your bags into the doors."
"Ladies and Gentlemen, I do apologise for the delay to your service. I know you're all dying to get home, unless, of course, you happen to be married to my ex-wife, in which case you'll want to cross over to the westbound and go in the opposite direction."
"This is Victoria station. Please leave your valuables on the train and I will collect them at the end of my shift."
"Covent Garden has been closed due to overcrowding. Please alight at
Leicester Square and wander around aimlessly with your huge rucksacks until you get to your destination."
"I apologise for the delays to your service this evening. This is due to ...well, it's just a crap service, isn't it?"
Michael
Laughing in Washington, DC
Criticising the signalmen isn't really fair. More to blame are the builders of the Metropolitan Railway.
Neither the Metropolitan or the District ever particularly wanted to complete the Inner Circle, and if they had not, would anyone today really suggest that it should be built? I say make Aldgate East an island platform station and get rid of it altogether (and I'm a fairly frequent user).
Rebuilding Aldgate East might be hard though. Moving it 200yds east,in 1938, was difficult enough.
The Circle routing through the City is only of any use at all if you want to go to Liverpool Street (which if you're starting from Victoria is a big deal).
Its only major beneficial effect is that the Met and District aren't restricted by the low capacity (and demand) on the Upminster branch. Ideally, the Circle should be abolished, especially as the Glouc Rd - Hi Ken curve is of such little use (basically it's not worth it for going Vic - Pad even - that's quicker via Oxford Circus). Aldgate should close altogether, with the surplus Met trains being sent onto the Southern Region after Farringdon (might even give some life to the bloody Sutton Loop). The District Line's surplus trains have an obvious home: a Bishopsgate connector could be built and there you have it - Crossrail on the cheap - this is a District Line train to Shenfield.
I think....... Not!
Don't look for us to post your bail... or pay your funeral expenses.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Why the hell would you do that? This site has images of 18 St (no Worth)stations.
And may I ask HOW you plan on doing this without getting hit by a 6 train or getting caught by the NYPD vandal squad? You saw NY Underground right?
Think about it.
-Chris
Both stations are very dark, covered with paint and are otherwise filthy and probably home to numerous breeds of vermin.
The Transit Museum used to sponsor fan trips to abandoned stations, but stopped doing so some years back due to liability concerns. Apparently someone tripped in one of the abandoned stations and threatened to sue.
-Chris
:-DIt looks like WrongInBS's evil plan hasn't worked!:-D
Welcome back!!!
http://home.nyc.rr.com/arti/NORTA/
Included are all 4 lines and 3 types of cars.
Canal to Cemeteries and City Park opened few months ago reverse- bustituting 42 and 45.
A trolley operator told me that Desire (82) is coming soon and has necessary funding. Turnouts and gauntlet track are on 267 and 269.
Interestingly shelters on Canal made in NY.
When I have more time I'll have a little report.
Arti
Arti
Mark
Nothing seems to bother them. The next story is a TRUE story that's almost hard to believe as New Yorkers.
I was riding the St Charles trolley, and we were on Charondelett St part of the line. We were putting along, and then all of a sudden the operator stopped, and said, "I'll be right back, folks". In the middle of the route he jumps out of his putting streetcar full of passengers, and just abandons the streetcar on the tracks. He ran across the street and into a "Subway Sandwich shop". We all figured that he must have had to go to the bathroom. Well, 5 minutes go by, and another streetcar leisurly catches up to us and stops, and then about 10 minutes more, and another one behind us and stops too. No one gets upset, no one gets annoyed. A few minutes later, the operator comes liesurly walking out of the store with a sandwich and a drink, opens the door, and we continue on our way....
I sat there with my mouth open in awe how no one on the streetcar was annoyed that they were delayed 10-15 minutes while the operator bought lunch! It was hysterical. Just try THAT in NY.
Yup, the first thing you must do in New Orleans is slow down, and then not let ANYTHING bother you. What a great city. I could never live there though, but it's sure a fun and interesting place to visit.
But you know something like that happened to me in Philly on the 34 trolley. At 46th and Baltimore, the operator got out, ran into a gas station, and got himself an ice cream bar. He stood outside the trolley and finished it before returning to the driver's seat. Now this was back when the Baltimore tracks were being replaced, and they were single-tracking along a section, so he may have had to stop and wait anyway.
Mark
Maybe New Orleans will be my next port of call in the US, having seen those great pictures.
I had a similar experience in February when I was there. The operators loved when you took pictures. You always got a wave or a ringing of the bells as they went by. (Unfortunately, they were still only testing on Canal St. I got some photos, but was not able to ride that line).
It such a fun city. As booge said, it's great railfanning by day, and party all night. Suprisingly, I was able to walk during the day to even take my photos, as Bourbon St is something like no where else - hard to survive! Not to mention, that my digital camera got a lot more use than just "train" photos for a change for a few nights - the beads were flowing at night if you know what I mean....some "things" are certainly better than "train" photos.
But of course, I got my fair share of the trolley photos (some are donated here on the New Orleans section of this site).
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
http://home.nyc.rr.com/arti/NORTA/P7100269.JPG
Now I guess thats what your talking about (Turnouts and gauntlet track are on 267 and 269) but I'm not sure. So are those provisions for the new line(s) or disused lines?
NORTA is going "back to the past". Streetcars are fun, buses are just buses.
What's really wild is that all the new "red" cars are built in the Carrollton Shops of the RTA. Building your cars in your own shop was somewhat common in the Nineteenth Century, but the practice died out.
RTA does it better than the off-the-shelf builders, plus New Orleans is the Big Easy, where fast just doesn't work.
It is possible for Mr. Von D's shops to build similar cars for other cities should someone want them to. How would a Peter Witt based on the N.O. body sound?
wayne
Arti
The fare is lowered to $1.25. Canal - Cemeteries ends at the Downtown end of Canal in the middle track, right before turning to Riverline, the track A at French Market is OOS. FM is served by City Park.
http://home.nyc.rr.com/arti/P7060116.JPG
http://home.nyc.rr.com/arti/P7060117.JPG
Arti
Arti
Arti
The Death and Life of the Canal Streetcar
Mark
Mark
That should have been "Nouveau" Orleans :)
The French colonial-era maps I've seen say Nouvelle Orelans, while the Spanish colonial maps are consistent and called it Nueva Orleans. Also, when I got a tourist visa from the French consulate in New Orleans, they wrote it "Nlle. Orleans."
Mark
I don't care what gender they assign; I can't wait until "Desire" returns as a streetcar line. Bussing that line-- with its worldwide recognition-- was right up there with the destruction of the old Penn Station. A travesty. Europe loves its history. We can't destroy ours fast enough. At least Jackie O. saved Grand Central.
Even "obviously sexed" words can defy reason. It's really quite amusing that in Latin, "mentula" is feminine and "cunnus" masculine, despite obvious expectations of the contrary.
It should be pointed out that the line was bustituted in the same year Tennessee Williams's play A Streetcar Named Desire debuted, 1955 or 56...I can't remember exactly. So it only became world-famous after it had already been bustituted, ironically enough.
That said, I think bustituting the Desire streetcar was a bad idea whether or not it was world-famous! I can't wait until it's running again.
Mark
Th play was 1947, the film 1951.
Another French word for old is vieux, so we could talk of "Vieux Orleans" and "Vieux Carre."
Mark
Surely "Vieille Orléans"?
Arti
Arti
Last time I was at the Audubon Zoo in New Orleans the information at one of the animal cages listed the average annual humidity in The Big Easy as 84%. For comparison, the sign also noted that this was the same average humidity as Bangkok.
That was the summer I lived in Baton Rouge. When I walked outside after being in an air-conditioned building my glasses would fog up. Needless to say, whenever I hear people in this part of the country complain about 50% humidity, I just shake my head...
Mark
Mark
By the way, New Orleans' St. Charles Line is probably the last place in the U.S.A. where you can still ride with open windows -- and I mean wide open! -- in regular service.
At 10:30 am the excursion train will operate to 59th Street/Columbus Circle, Track A-3, where guests will board.
At 10:40 am the train will proceed via the “A” Line to Rockaway Park, and lunch. The excursion train will lay-up as needed.
After lunch, the excursion train will make three round trips to Howard Beach, returning to Rockaway Park.
From Rockaway Park, the excursion train will operate to Far Rockaway.
From Far Rockaway, the excursion train will operate via the “A” Line to 59th Street/Columbus Circle, and end.
Excursion train lays-up in 207th Street Yard.
I presume everyone knows from the last MOD trip, where the lunch spots are at Rockaway Park.
But I will enlighten you anyway, there is a lunchonette next door to the stationhouse. Walk to the right for a diner and Wendys. Walk to the left for a pizzeria.
The passengers were never told why were waiting, sort of like the fiasco at 57th.
Your pal,
dinero
-Chris
They serve ice cream and italian ices on the windowsill, right?
-Chris
LAME!
I hope Sunday's trip (as wet as it might be) will be over the BMT Eastern Division. There is more outdoor sections there.
I'm looking forward to experiencing the ride in these cars that haven't been out of the museum in a very long time.
I picked Saturday, just in case something unexpected goes wrong & they have to pull the BUs to service them some more (i.e. cancel the Sunday trip).
This happened on the first Red Bird trip last year, i.e. they had to use the service fleet of R-33 from the Bronx on our rainy trip in June.
One of the Saturday trips ran Corona Redbirds instead of the planned museum train, though.
--Mark
I'll long remember them pushing all the lights on Broadway & said that I'll bet they never be operated at that speed ever again for the rest of their lives :-(
I might just save my money for next Saturday's MOD stip, and hope for the BMT Southern or Eastern Division lines.
That's what I'm thinking. I knew I wasn't going on Saturdays trip because I have a prior engagement, but the first thing I thought was, "Good, at least that gets the Rockaways out of the way" if by some chance I can make it next weekend.
Don't get me wrong, I love the Rockaways route, but man, it seems every trip goes there lately.
Hopefully one of the next week ones will be along the SOuthern Division, if by some chance I can make it - anything but the Rockaways again! I didn't order tickets so don't even know if I am going next week, but knew I wasn't going this week.
til next time
in fact,it's lost more mileage than any other city....
the 3RD,MYRTLE,JAMAICA[partial],FULTON[partial],Culver[partial],Worlds fair...and so on...
the additions since 56...11th street cut,Dyre ave,Rockaway,Chyrstie,Archer,63 st.not much in mileage.....
The trackage gained since 1955 has been minimal. The 11th Street Cut is basically a connector between BMT and IND tracks - its not a separate line. The Dyre Avenue and Rockaway Lines were obtained from other transit systems and were not built by the TA. Chrystie, Archer and 63 were all part of the "New Routes" plan produced by the MTA in 1968. The plan actually called for far more trackage than what was actually built.
Other cities built a lot of track and stations in the 1960s-70s and took full advantage of federal matching $$. NYC, meanwhile, was going broke.
Your point about the 11th Street cut is correct. But it improved connectivity (more below).
However, not everything NYC did was bad. Consider that the 6th Av IND subways' express tracks, installed in the 1960s, are pretty important today in assuring that this heavily used trunk provides good service to commuters. And we did get four new stations on the 6th Av line since the 1960s (57 Street was added, in the 1960s, then the other three since 1982) and additional carrying capacity from Queens.
The other additions improved connectivity (integration) of services - new transfer points in the subway or to the LIRR, to an airport service (AirTrain), and so on. On a large system like NYC, the addition of transfer points is very important. Even the Franklin Shuttle's reconstructio added one (opening a passageway to commuters which previously could only be used by police). Other transfer points added were the 53/Lex between IRT and IND (that one wasn't there in the 1950's, if I recall correctly).
And then there was the rebuilding of the whole subway itself. I can't say it enough times: bringing the subway back to a state of good repair and overhauling the logistical systems at MTA were the most important things that could ever get done.
Now take a step back and look at the region as a whole: Did the Newark subway and HBLR extensions help NYC? Yes, by making it easier to use mass transit to get around the whole region. NJ Transit's new rail stations at Newark Airport and at the new transfer point for midtown direct service were also of direct benefit to Manhattan.
I'm also glad that the MTA has finally realized that old tilework needs to be cleaned and repaired wherever possible, not covered up and forgotten. The BMT Broadway line stations look so much better now that the 1970's refrigerator tiles have been removed.
In terms of route miles, if you go back even further, I am pretty sure that 1938 would be the peak year. Between 1938 and 1956, you gained the Rockaway line and the 6th Ave subway and some IND extensions, but you lost the 2nd Ave. El, the 3rd Ave El below 149 St., the 6th Ave El, the 9th Ave El in Manhattan and the Bronx, and the Lexington Ave El, the 5th Ave. El, and the bulk of the Fulton Street El in Brooklyn.
This webpage has photos and timetables of the subways and commuter trains in Tokyo!
this webpage has timetables, maps, and rolling stock photos of Tokyo subway and commuter trains.
Thanks for that link. The site has a comprehensive set of maps (to scale), train photos, travel times and distances.
The one limitation is that it only covers the 23 wards of Tokyo, so that the surrounding prefectures are not included.
R-32.
The Budd Company has shut down its last Philly plant on Hunting Park Av (or is finishing that process) and is relocating everybody to Michigan, to be closer to its primary customers, the auto makers.
Budd is still the largest independent maker of auto parts.
R-32.
I'm not certain of this, but I believe Budd is now a division of a German company (Thyssen?)
In order to survive in railcars, you have to either be selling to both US and foreign markets, or you need a substantial presence in freight and passenger rail (or both).
Note that ANF Industrie, the French subsidiary carbuilder of Quebec-based Bombardier, makes both freight and passenger railcars, and sells both all over the world.
By the way, check out the MTA Maryland's official website. Does anyone have more pictures of their LRVs in the Maryland flag paint scheme shown in the picture at the top? That's a neat paint scheme. It reminds me of the Texas flag paint scheme that the Trinity Railway Express was using on its commuter trains running between Dallas and Ft. Worth. Of course these schemes work because TX and MD both have cool flags. That wouldn't really work with the flags of a lot of states.
Mark
Mark
Personally, I like the old scheme better, the but the flag idea is interesting.
Mark
Miami and Baltinmore split an order from Budd in 1982.
Baltimore got a second order from Budd/Transit America in 1985.
Neither system has bought anything from Breda.
Mark
Atlanta:
Washington:
Mark
* ryan
Ben F. Schumin :-)
This would imply that Baltimore's most recent order also came from Budd but I am not certain.
Atlanta - MARTA - cars made by Franco-Belge, Breda, Hitachi.
Miami - MDT - cars made by Budd [split with Baltimore]
Washington - WMATA - cars made by Rohr, Breda, CAF, Alsthom [coming soon].
It should be NONE of the current fleet. R-32s and R-38s had their LOCAL/EXP lights and marker lights removed at overhaul.
Is there any reason trains are different? Is it perhaps they are not required to have standardized position lights and the color is simply an arbitrary design?
Yes! And both of the lights were never lit simultaneously, and trains are not boats or airplanes. You can tell if a train is moving toward you by the presence of headlights.
If you look at such a train from the rear, the green and red LOCAL/EXP lights will be flipped so that they appear in the "correct" positions.
Ministers Tighten Grip on Railway
Mark
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
At least they're better than ARRIVA. I really couldn't believe it when I saw ARRIVA's latest trick to make sure no-one rides their buses - in the evening, there are 7 buses an hour I can get out of the South of the centre of Leicester on 6 different routes. Guess what - yes, they've now rewritten the timetable so that 4 of them go at 10 past and 3 of them at 20 to. Absolutely sodding useless. When they did that to me, I was actually glad there was a First bus that would take me halfway where I wanted to be up the London Rd. Even walking after catching that, no ARRIVAs passed me.
I must agree, however, that in general First suffer from backside and elbow syndrome. And I never thought I'd say this, but they do rather make Travel West Midlands look like they know how to run a public transport service (although that's really based on running an almost identical network to the one WMPTE used to run).
Closer to my home, Eastern National buses to Wivenhoe station were always timed so that they would not comfortably connect with the train to London, thus forcing hundeds of University of Essex students and staff to travel all the way to Colchester station instead (much greater distance). First used to run trains from Wivenhoe to London. They had a good reputation for Great Eastern services, but that was largely down to the talents of the local management rather than any intelligence from those idiots from Aberdeen.
I hope to get pictures soon. I applied for a new MBTA photo permit (required MBTA police "investigation"), and they say it takes a few weeks. There's no way I'm going to photo there without it... the place is crawling with security forces!
Fortunately, no one was injured, and it wasn't part of the station vault: just suspended acoustic ceiling tile and some recessed lighting fixtures. The cause is still undetermined, but some are sure to scream that it's due to inadequate inspection and maintenance. Naturally, heated debate about funding for Metro is sure to follow. I hope those who control the purse strings will see the light and not just deadlock in arguments -- the last thing we need is for injuries or deaths from anything of a more serious nature.
An expert measured sound levels louder than a pneumatic drill and advised regular passengers to consider wearing ear protection.
Professor Deepak Prasher, head of University College London's Audiology unit, took the measurements on four Victoria Line journeys. LU said it was aware of the problem but it was unlikely to affect passengers. Prof Prasher found that the noise peaked at 118dB, which is louder than a pneumatic drill. The average level was between 88-89dB, which is above the 85dB legal limit where a workplace would be required to provide ear protection.
Prof Prasher: "I am shocked by the levels that we actually recorded. They were peaking at 118dB which is quite horrendous. The squealing and so on near Stockwell and Pimlico is quite astonishing really. It's the equivalent of a big jack hammer going, or a jet engine taking off in the distance. Although the journey times for most people are going to be short, this is a cumulative damage. If you regularly commute and use that line, then you need to seriously think about some form of ear protection."
Prof Prasher then carried out an experiment where a student's hearing was tested before and after a journey along the same section of the Victoria Line. It found that hearing sensitivity fell immediately after the journey.
A Tube train driver, speaking on condition of anonymity, told BBC London that he always wears ear protection. "I would advise passengers to do the same, it really is very noisy indeed, and they shouldn't put their hearing at risk."
Dr Olivia Carlton, LU's head of Occupational Health, said: "Certainly the Underground is noisy and it is something that we are very aware of. We monitor our own staff's hearing on a regular basis, and we've looked at the hearing of train operators and we haven't actually ever demonstrated noise induced hearing loss. Although I would agree that the Underground is noisy, and particularly in certain areas, it seems rather unlikely that our customers hearing would be damaged because their journey time is much shorter than our train operators. On the Victoria Line we are aware that there is a problem and we have got a programme planned."
END.
I think 14th Street might come close at the end of the platform.
Seriously, you would have loved the West End Line in the early 1908s and the "Big Screechers" straphanger group that measured trains at over 100dB.
At what dB can hearing damage occur? 85? Any audiologists care to comment?
--Mark
What was that you said ??
(After many years in the railway industry my hearing is not too good ! )
:-)
wayne
wayne .
wayne
wayne
The new map includes all the major transport projects planned for the next ten years. These are:
Crossrail
East London Line extension
Thameslink 2000
DLR extensions
Metropolitan Line extension
Piccadilly Line extension
Croydon Tramlink
Cross River Transit
East London Transit
Greenwich Waterfront Transit
West London Transit
The Mayor said: “Improved transport infrastructure is vital for London to maintain the international competitiveness upon which our prosperity depends. This map shows how London’s transport system will look in 2016 if we make the essential investments in the city’s transport infrastructure. These investments are necessary to sustain London’s growth and prosperity and will enhance the economic growth prospects and productivity of the entire United Kingdom. This map represents the future of London’s transport system. It shows what we need to do to ensure our city’s future success.”
Research carried out for the Mayor's London Plan indicates that London's population is projected to grow from 7.2 million to 8.1 million by 2016. "This is a transport system which will cope with London's population in 2016", the Mayor said.
http://www.london.gov.uk/mayor/transport/transportmap2016.jsp
refers
Frankly, I think that London and Paris and other big european cities should be knocked down and re-built with some sort of rational comprehensive plan with grid streeting and a trunk line subway system.
It’s an ambitious plan. It will be interesting to see how much of this is actually built!
John
The Sutton Loop most definitely exists (and is arguably totally useless in its current configuration)!
I see they've dropped the idea of Crossrail taking over the Central line Hainault loop service.
That was a Chelney plan not a Crossrail one, which sometimes is confusingly referred to as "Crossrail 2".
I notice they also don't plan to have Crossrail be able to access Heathrow 4; an H-4-bound passenger on Crossrail would have to change at H-1-2-3; change trains to backtrack to Hatton Cross and then change again back to H-4.
Crossrail would replace the new Heathrow Connect service. This would eventually go to Heathrow T5. It can't go to T4 as the tunnel's single track and at capacity with the Expresses. In fact, T4 might become freight only once T5 opens. Oh and bear in mind that Heathrow Express is free within the Airport, so there's already an airport shittle!
The double brown (Silverlink) and double blue (Thameslink) are commuter rail. The map should have shown all commuter lines or none of them. Instead, it shows just those two, which may be an indication of the Mayor's political ambitions.
Should the tramlines be on the Underground map? Tramlink is not, and probably never will be, so why all these others?
Obviously, Richmond on the District and Watford on the Met shouldn't be on there at all. The tramlines belong on the quadrant bus maps.
With a bit more care at Holborn, the Kingsway tram route could have been improved.
Piccadilly Line to Uxbridge points away from its destination at one point.
etc
etc
And what is Silverlink Metro doing there at all. Its not TfL funded, is not proposed to be, and has no route enhancements in this scheme.
Very true. However, on the London Connections map, the curves would look right.
With a bit more care at Holborn, the Kingsway tram route could have been improved.
They've generally made the area inside the Inner Circle a total mess for the dubious virtue of making Crossrail look like a straight horizontal rather than the Central Line. However, I do really like how Paddington looks on this map.
And what is Silverlink Metro doing there at all. Its not TfL funded, is not proposed to be, and has no route enhancements in this scheme.
It would, however, make sense for the DC Lines (and maybe the NLL - perhaps running it through with the ELL) to become Underground. This is especially true as it would be horribly misleading to leave Harrow and Wealdstone and Watford Junction on the map with a white space in between.
Is the Tramlink omitted from the current Undergroud map because there's only the one connection at Wimbledon?
On-street running is the key here. Trams are at the mercy of traffic. Many rail advertisements used to capitalise on the "avoid the jams" catchline. Tramlink cannot do that.
What I meant to say was I don’t think this map (or a variation) will be used as a map for customers when the time comes. Its use is for Ken to promote the new lines and services.
New line proposals should be made to look like inevitable gap-fillers, opening up routes never possible before. A good fantasy map should look good. Ken wants this map to make people say "wow, TfL has got some great stuff planned. the British government had better pay a share or there will be trouble". Instead, the first response of most people might well be "yuck, this is horrible, I hope they never build this confusing mess"
New line proposals are difficult to turn into reality. Crossrail has already been turned down once. These plans will be scrutinised carefully by people who don't want to fund them. A confused map gives the impression of confused planning.
While the Docklands Light Railway and Jubilee Line extensions are quite impressive in and of themselves, UndergrounD needs to be careful about overextending itself. They could end up starting lots of projects and finishing none if the pounds sterling are not there to pay for it.
And then of course, recall that London UndergrounD never got the sort of thorough rehabilitation that the NYC subway system got. I think they need to look at their state of repair very seriously.
The government and the private sector still cannot agree about who will what for Crossrail (estimated cost Ł10 billion).
One question: are the tiled name tablets on the walls at Atlantic Avenue 1907 originals or are they reproductions?
wayne
From NY1...
MTA Mulls More Service Cuts, Higher Fares To Close Budget Gap
JULY 15TH, 2004
Straphangers could be facing more service cuts and higher fares as soon as next year.
The financially-troubled MTA is scheduled to release its budget in two weeks.
The New York Post reports the agency is considering slashing overnight bus and subway service to close its massive budget gap.
They may also change the price of discount MetroCards.
The agency faces a $540 million budget gap next year and deficits of over a billion dollars for the next two years.
Last year the MTA closed 62 station booths and cut 846 jobs, it also raised bus and subway fares to $2.
The usual scare tactics used to facilitate far less drastic spending cuts or it's laying the foundation of a future fare hike.
Some programs that the MTA should rethink
$47 million to convert one manhattan depot to CNG - The MTA has already put out a feeler to the community to place hybrid buses at that depot instead of CNG. The operating cost savings and a lower cost to convert the depot to hybrids is needed
running shorter trains overnights and weekends where it makes sense, Spend dollars to properly lable platforms and install digital CCTV were needed; There is a new CCTV technology that is now avaialbe that deliver the needed power through one Cat-5 ethernet cable. It is costing the MTA $600k a station to install cctv to cover platforms on the L
Elininating all secoundary tooken booths; move to an rfid based metrocard for monthly unlimted holder reducing turnstyle maitance; Enhance metrocard vendor program by allowing them to encode metrocards thus reducing MVM usaage. The two week metrocard preposed will both MVM usage as some weekly card buyers will opt for the two week cardchnolgy and increase cost per ride as some monthly riders will buy the more costly 2-week card
Roll out Automated bus monitoring(scheduled for 2007) I have been researchitng currently avaible technologies. Current technoly uses gps plus a variety of other methods in tandem to eliniated the problems of buses in the hudson river. They use gps, cellular networks, rfid. This technolgy will eliminate the need for 3/4 of the current dispatchers and all the ride checkers in the bus operation plus reduce fuel costs and improve bus line on-time service
Add in better oversight proceedures and you can cut hundreds of millions of $$ out of the budget. The Debt service(interest on bonds issued) is through the roof, they need to get a handle on these guys. It is nice to see the MTA is getting is butt in gear increasing ad revenues.
The mta should look into the following money making ventures
1) Having a third party company install ATM machines in all stations
2)Increasing deveopment around it's key stations increasing ridership
3)do a better job of renting out MTA owned property around stations.
At the current pace the deficit will get larger and larger, the debt service and pension libilities is what the major issues is
If you had the time to count up 29 spelling and punctuation errors in the 5 minutes and 51 seconds between when voiceofreason made his post and the time you made yours, it doesn't sound like you tried very hard to understand his points at all. (Sorry if the possibility that the preceding is a run-on sentence offends you).
You ought to go back and try a little harder. He makes some very important observations about the future problems at the TA/MTA.
I agree with the notion of cancelling all Metrocard discounts. In reality, few people actually pay $2 a ride. I also agree with the concept of eliminating every manned secondary token booth. There's no need to have 2 at Woodhaven Blvd on the J line. I'd also like to suggest another potential cost-savings measure, which won't be popular or feasible: salary cuts. Everyone in the private sector ually gets hit hard when the business they work for isn't doing well. Civil servants shouldn't be exempt.
Civil servants (knowingly or unknowingly) trade away the benefits and downsides of private sector employment (bonuses, perks, merit-based pay increases, mass layoffs, pay cuts) for job security and union representation. It's unreasonable -- to me at least -- to ask that they share only in the downside of the economy. Consistent with that approach, I was very much against the unions desire for anything more than a 3% or so wage increase at the last negotiation.
If you require pay cuts during down cycles, you'll attract only the lowest of the low (well, and a few foamers who just can't stay away) as your employee base.
At the end of the day, I think the MTA and the unions will probably need to re-negotiate the pension plans that their retirees are getting and probably request a bailout from the state. From my albeit limited reading on this subject, it appears the cost of pension plan was grossly underestimated as a result of overly optimistic assumptions on future interest rates and investment returns.
Everytime they cry foul about money....I say go cry to the state,and tell them to cough up more cash,or the Feds.
they got more than enough if they can send Billions overseas to IRAQ...
Hevesi Pulled admitted that the statement was inacurite when questioned on NY1
The MTA had two budget projections
one where they refinanced bonds at a lower interest rate, extending the terms(more interest paid over the long term, lower payment now)
and a secound budget where they did not refinace the bonds.
The bond refinacing freed up $500 million this year but created a bigger liability down the road.
GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT
A distance-based fare would be more politically feasible.
The elimination of the discounts though is something that could be done, but I think that raising the base fare is better.
Cut the waist not the rider bennifits
Remember the MTA business is moving people not protecting antiquated business practices supported by the unions
Maybe the Atkins Diet will help.
No it would not, dropping all discounts will and creating a flat $1.50 fare will drive down ridership, increase operating costs as people buy smaller quantities at a time requiring more MVM's and fare sales points.
Pull out the % of extra rides that occur because you do not have to pay extra for them and the average fare is somewht higher then $1.26
Fewer people using the subway means more traffic on the roads
The $1.26 average fare is a little misleading. People take more rides if they don't have to pay additional for each ride. In the end is the person paying less for the services. Most of the time NO.
Salary Cuts, now you are getting a little silly. If the MTA was run better it would result in lower ovetime costs as stupid clasuse designed to run up overtime costs get removed
I read somewhere, that NYC is doing something like that for it's vechicles. I doubt MTA can use it though.
Arti
It just won't work. Why? because making the necessary upgrades, like RFID for the turnstyles, will be listed in the budget that the TA will say needs to be offset by... surprise... raising the fare.
And even after the completeion of said work and the TA has been "repaid", do you really think the TA will say "OK, that's done, we'll now CUT fares."
Right.
> reduces rediculous wastes and ineffeciencies
They'll will never reduce the number of managers. :-P
In addition, the riders frankly hated the short trains. Even today, the riders on the G train (the shortest regular service line in system aside from shuttles) complain about having to run down the stairs and platforms to catch the trains when they decide to show up. The short trains cause the riders to hold the doors more often which affects the motors that control the doors - hence more trains out of service.
This issue has been looked at before, and the answer is that short trains for full length lines with heavy night-time ridership is not the "cost savings" it appears to be. Remember the main components of expenses for the TA is salaries, and these short trains still have a motorman and a conductor. OPTO is not and can to be done on full length lines with heavy night-time ridership with the current consists of trains. The ridership will not allow "driver-less" subway trains at any time of the day or night - no matter how good the automation claims to be.
Give the riders the choice between a fare hike and "driver-less" subway trains, and you may be surprised by what riders choose.
With that line of reasoning, New Yorkers should demand computer operated trains after each train wreck that is the operator's fault.
Most lines are crowded in Manhattan on weekends. Service is less frequent than weekday middays but ridership is greater.
NYC has had a big economic downturn. Should MTA personnel share in the pain? I certainly don't call for them to get pay cuts, but maybe yes they do need to share in the pain to the extent of not getting the pay raises that most of them deserve.
If we want an economy again, then everybody in the private sector should take an immediate 50% pay cut like *I* did ... :)
Ugh, so what are they going to do, make the late night wait for the Brooklyn bound A 60 minutes as opposed to 55? :-P
Both the magnitude of the "budget gaps" and the TA's response strains credulity.
Consider the following data from the National Transportation Database for 2002.
Total Operating Funds Expended $4,001,270,473
Total Operating Expenses $3,860,868,715
for a cash-on-cash SURPLUS of almost $140 million!!
So, in 3 years they are predicting a change of $680 million in their fortunes, DESPITE a 33% FARE INCREASE!!!
What about the TA's response? Suppose the burdened rate for a TA employee were $100K. Then it would require the terminating 5,400 employees to address the projected budget gap. How will reducing night service help. They don't use anywhere near 5,400 employees to operate night service.
David
Just how does the TA get its "capital monies"? Are they outright grants or are some of these monies the proceeds from bond issues? If there are proceeds from bond issues, then who pays the bondholders and by what mechanism?
N.B. I tried to stimulate some discussion on the exact nature of the "budget gap" by my post on this thread. I do not believe that there is a serious cash-on-cash shortfall on operations, based on the TA's recent history.
When the MTA was formed, additional "air conditioned subway cars" were purchased, but the lion's share of the new public authority transportation bond went to the Long Island Railroad to begin replacing major portions of the infrastructure without the requisite "fare hikes" to pay for it. The suburban voter was a critical asset to the party in power at the time (Rockefeller) and rocking the boat with the necessary costs of new purchases and massive rehabilitation was a non-starter. MTA had already assumed major debt on NYCTA with major car purchases, and so funds were not available for maintenance of the system itself. LIRR "customers" sacked the budget with the justification of "look, you got air conditioned trains, stop whining."
Recently, the subway system received a large order of "new tech" and of course, D'Amato willing, the 160's will be coming in. MTA funding has always been a history of robbing Peter to pay Paul, and with that nice juicy chunk of bridge and tunnel money under the belt helps immensely. Now LIRR and Meatball North are receiving THEIR new toys, all at a time when the money just isn't there and the feds ain't kicking in squat ... these binges and purges though are historic with the MTA and we're in one of those major financial bleeding cycles of cash and bonds that resulted in the decay of the system previously owing to all the debt service after a period when the money HAD been going into the invisible things like rails and signals.
I'm only saying what I'm saying though in order to encourage more discussion of all this - the forest of the MTA is so much larger than what we see ... and there's many mouths to feed.
And THIS might be interesting as well as fodder for the discussion, since I find these financials interesting from a political angle:
http://www.utu.org/worksite/detail_news.cfm?ArticleID=15271
Group to N.Y. MTA: Repairs over expansions
NEW YORK - The MTA should spend nearly 75 percent of its capital
budget on maintaining the quality of its buses and trains, an
influential transportation group says in a new report, according to
New York Newsday.
Much of the rest of the money should go to funding the Second
Avenue subway and bringing the Long Island Rail Road to Grand
Central Terminal, the Regional Plan Association suggests.
"The system that was Exhibit A for a dysfunctional New York in the
1970s is now a leading symbol of its success," the report states.
"Continued rebuilding is vital. A return to disinvestment will result in
gradual erosion of this asset and a lost opportunity to support a
changing, expanding economy."
The Metropolitan Transportation Authority is scheduled on July 29 to
release a draft of its five-year capital plan. It must then face a
lengthy approval process that is not expected to end before the fall.
The plan, which covers spending between 2005 to 2009, will be
between $18 and $22 billion, said MTA spokesman Tom Kelly.
Kelly declined to comment on the Regional Plan Association's
suggestions.
The report advises the MTA against relying heavily on bonds to pay
for its major purchases.
MTA Chairman Peter Kalikow has said the agency is looking to dip into
new funding streams.
(This item was printed July 16, 2004, in Newsday.)
So a little background is necessary here. First the historicals. Al D'Amato was once the "Tax Assessor" for Nassau county, and worked his way up politically by cutthroat politics and scandals a plenty as any Nassau county "3 percenter" will tell you. But of most significance, it was Al D'Amato who CREATED Joe Bruno *and* George Elmer Pataki ... and now with his puppets fully implanted, guess who's making money off the MTA and the state as a whole? Ayup. Al D'Amato is the puppeteer behind the scenes that has worked diligently on making New York what it once was again - an arctic region, covered with ice.
NOBODY gets on the MTA board without Al's explicit thumbs up or down. No subway or railroad cars get purchased without Al D'Amato getting his personal piece of the action. Alstom, Bombardier, Kawasaki - no matter WHO gets the contract, Al D'Amato made it happen. Whatever Paturkey or Bruno do, it's ENTIRELY in Al D'Amato's control, operating 2/3 of our government as his own personal "supermajority." :(
read all about it:
Historical book on "Senator Pothole"
(http://www.brainiacbooks.com/si/1119W308378.html)
Al D'Amato - lobbyist
(http://nydailynews.com/front/story/208968p-180120c.html)
$500,000 a dance - the MTA buys new headquarters
(http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0329/barrett.php)
Al D'Amato's snazzy digital subway signs
(http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0314/barrett.php)
Kalikow - yep, own3d by D'Amato
(http://newyorkmetro.com/nymetro/news/features/n_10108/index1.html)
Al D'Amato's vision: LIRR East Side Access
(http://www.tstc.org/bulletin/19970214/mtr11404.htm)
Al D'Amato owned TWU and Sonny Hall as well
(http://www.pww.org/article/view/2869/1/135/)
If billions weren't borrowed for repairs, the MTA could afford the expansions. The portion of the SAS they are actually looking to fund would cost about $1 billion in additional new state/local money. Compared with the $3 billion in additional state/local money for East Side Access.
The point is, if subway cars last 40 years you need to buy an average of 162 per year (converting the 75 footers to 60 foot equivalents). If they last 50, you need to buy an average of 130 per year. The same can be said of station renovations, signal system replacements, bus purchases, etc. You don't mortgage yourself to the hilt for 30 years to pay for five years of ongoing normal replacement. Fund those things the right way, and you can afford to borrow for the expansions.
But the main thrust here is that the person I answered claimed that the 63rd Street Connector was a waste of money, but he didn't say what made it a waste. I'm waiting for an answer on that one.
David
URL=http://www.nycsubway.org/ind/6thave/
Frankly, I always get a good laugh out of people who deride a newly completed subway line. The attitude behind it is "all those guys at MTA are morons and I could have done a much better job if they hired me to decide."
I don't see this being any exception.
I suspect THAT was their point. 53rd has certainly lost service ... and the G train silliness is another argument as to what a joke 63rd is - aside from those who used to commute by sky of course. But I can see the point - 63rd would have been a contender if only there were soemthing it connected to beyond "pre-existing" subway lines ...
Nonsense. Very myopic of you, actually. The Connector opened badly needed service to a densely settled Roosevelt Island and increased total carrying capaciity toManhattan. It also improved local service to Manhattan and subway coverage of 6th Avenue. There is no redundancy there at all.
What it did not do (but could still do in future) is open new areas of Queens to subway service. That is regrettable, but there is nothing preventing the TA from building a diversion off the tunnel in future (it was supposed to have one, after all).
"53rd has certainly lost service "
No it hasn't. It replaced one express service with a local service, which was important for patrons of the many local satations in Queens who were being underserved. There are still a lot of people who don't know how to best use a local and an express train. David Greenberger (David of Broadway) has posted some excellent primers on the subject. Please read them.
:0)
No it hasn't. It replaced one express service with a local service, which was important for patrons of the many local satations in Queens who were being underserved. There are still a lot of people who don't know how to best use a local and an express train. David Greenberger (David of Broadway) has posted some excellent primers on the subject. Please read them.
Errr... yes, it has. E+F=30tph, vs E+V=24tph. In other words, stations on E53rd St have lost 20% of their service.
That's in an ideal sense. What the connector has done is insulate Queens from disaster in the event of a service disruption, but providing an alternate route to Manhattan. Now that the IND has the oldest signal systems on the network, that may prove important in the next couple of decades.
Age of the signal system != reliability.
If properly maintained, the older signal equipment is very rugged
and will not fail. If properly maintained! Trust the signal
geeks on this one, not the suits.
I remind you that a recent "disaster" on the QB line was caused
not by the 1930s-vintage signal equipment, but by the ca 2001
QBPMT project.
The MTA's current budget issue is a result of funding a large majority of it's capitol projects with revenue bonds. The cost of the debt service(intrest payment) is mounting resulting in a large shortfall vs fare revenue/state.city funding and MTA bridges and tunnel subsidies.
A large part of the problem is that the MTA has been very slow to spend it's capitol monies on projects that reduce it's operating expenes. Those projects that had the potential to reduce operating expenses such as AFC/Metrocard program have had key components such as clossing now unnneeded token booths blocked by union propoganda.
All this LIRR crap is bunk for a few reasons.
- THe Lirr and Metro North pump in Billions of dollars in revenue into the city and state in the form retaining high paying jobs in NYC who's employees spend heavily and YES RIDE THE BUSES AND SUBways generatin g addional revenues for NYCT that would not otherwise exist.
It may have been true in the 1960s, 1970s and 1980s that people who held high paying jobs felt a need to live outside the city, but that isn't true today -- except for parents, due to the city's schools. In fact, according to the 2000 census, a higher share of white people in NYC held college degrees than in the suburbs. Blacks and Latinos who are employed and have skills, in contrast, are still leaving the city. Given the quality of schools in the neighborhoods where they live, I can't blame them.
A good transportation system is key because people's jobs are mobile and because two people in a family often work. Even if a husband and wife are lucky enough to find jobs in the same area, and can live in that area, sooner or later one will end up with a new job that requires transportation.
Suburbanites bring huge benefits to the city.
City workers equally bring huge benefits to the suburbs. The economies of White Plains and Stamford would be crippled without MNCR. All the other towns along MNCR also have sizeable numbers of commuters who get off there in the morning to go to work. The reverse commuter local trains on the Harlem line can often be SRO between Bronxville and Woodlawn.
I have lived in NYC for the last 23 years and would really prefer to work in NYC, but have only managed to do so for 13 of those 24 years. If it weren't for first rate MNCR service, I'd be adding myself to the crowds driving every day.
Capitol bonds get repaid with operating income unless the feds or state kick in some money
David
Posted on:7/15/04 12:15:08 PM
Due to a track problem north of Dyckman Street, northbound (1) trains are running express from 207th Street to Van Cortlandt Park-242nd Street station until further notice.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
I wanted to ask here before I bothered his mom.
There must be some guy out there in love with orange Q's. This is the third time one has been seen this month, I think.
Note: I am not accusing or even suggesting this is the work of DQ BrightonLine.
-Broadway Buffer
Thank you.
-Chris
LET IT GO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! EVERYBODY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
GET A LIFE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Don't talk to me or mention me anymore either!
-Broadway Buffer
-Broadway Buffer
What I'm trying to say is that you can't accuse me of anything more than you can accuse vengence of doing. He acted just as stupid as me if not more in that thread.
As for you, I don't know what else to say, only that you're wrong.
Stop working with vengence to get me off this board, cuz that's what he has been doing to me since the first time I ever posted, and it's not going to work, so give up now, cuz you won't win. If you don't like me than don't talk to me or about me. In other words, stay out of my damn business.
-Broadway Buffer
-Broadway Buffer
what do you say we call a truce...??
Im willing to cut you some slack if you will to accept it..kool?
You don't like Vengence? I think its on the money...
I spell it like for reasons....
I like 'vengence', but I just don't understand the spelling of it as you pointed out.
-Broadway Buffer
So chill man..I'm okay with you hangin around....you never know..we may become fast friends...if you let it happen...
-Broadway Buffer
Umm, try over 6,000,000.
Peace,
ANDEE
Why do you have such a love for trouble?
Changing rollsigns to confuse people, and now since you no longer do it, you want to start fights here.
I think the furniture is there, but its arranged in the wrong rooms.
-Broadway Buffer
Bill "Newkirk"
D to BrightoN!
A buffer although I've heard it referred to as other names is the thing at the end of the line.
I know this sounds silly, but when I was little and I saw a show called Thomas the Tank Engine and I remember the narrator always referring to the buffer at the end of the line or wherever it happened to be. So since I always remembered that I would refer to them as buffers. Maybe it's a British term, cuz it was a British show.
The real meaning of it would be the buffer on Broadway. And the only buffer on Broadway (I think the only one at least) is at the Canal St Station on the 2 tracks btw the local ones.
So thats what a Broadway Buffer is.
-Broadway Buffer
-Chris
-Broadway Buffer
-Chris
Oh wait, you want to know whats behind it? I got no clue. :P
Never expect to see R32 returning to N, well guess what? Its backs!!! And I spotted that thing three times. Yesterday I even say an Northbound R68 W train taking off from Prince Street. LOOK LIKE WE'RE RUNNING INTO SOME SUBWAY HISTORY AHHHH! SO GUYS PREPARE YOURSELF FOR A CHANGE THAT WILL DRIVE U NUTS!
And also, why do you not believe me like that? I don't carry a camera everywhere I go, so I can't get a picture of everything. I'd be looking at the world through a camera if I did. Which I personally think too many people do.
-Broadway Buffer
-Chris
Note to other SubTalkers: This is a joke OBVIOUSLY!
-Chris
-Chris
Nice Talkin to ya
Semper Paratus
Back in 2001, before the bridge change, I bought an orange Q pin because I thought that would be the end of it. But it seems I was wrong as the pin is still available over three years later.
BTW: Thanks for useing my favorite subway line as the first teaser, BRIGHTON EXPRESS.
mine:
-o-- i--a-- -ai--oa-
_ _ S _ _ _GT_ _ - M_ _ _ _PO_ _ T_ _ - _ _E_ - T_ _ _ S _ T - A_ _ _ _ R_ T _ .
It has nothing to do with the NYC subway, but rather another _ A_ _ coast city.
GOOD LUCK!!!
-Chris
-Chris
-o-ie-e -a-io-a-e -e --e-i- -e -e-
Millions have already been spent for this subway already without one backhoe yet.
That would be one mistake they won't be able to talk there way out of....
I'll believe in the SAS when it's running. Until then I'll keep jamming onto the Lex like everyone else.
On life-support machines, that is. Until the MTA brass decides to pull the plug for the 25th time.
That's where you come in. Contact your elected officials and remind them how important SAS is. And keep bugging them.
The plan, at $20 billion, sets a record for Capital spending in a 5 year plan. Most of it is for "State of Good Repair." The rest is for expansion.
The La Guardia extension is dead, and MTA has not moved yet to begin construction of a 7 extension to Javits. This means at least $650 million is already in the bank which can be redirected to SAS, and more if the 7 extension is deferred.
SAS and ESA will move forward, in phases. ESA put out two contracts for digging the required tunnels and do the civil work at GCT; SAS will have nough money to break ground as scheduled in the fall or early winter of 2004.
After that, it's a matter of how quickly the work gets done.
David
Bear in mind also that the STATE has never passed a budget this year, so currently there is NO money. Capital plans are just that - PLANS. If the money appears, they'll do it. If there's cutbacks, there will be cutbacks. In the 1970's, there was a Capital plan too, and SAS was at the top of the list. Whoops. :)
Wouldn’t it be wonderful if there were a law that said that in the absence of a budget all the state salaries would be continued at current rates except the members of the legislature, who would have all their income garnisheed until the budget passed.
That would concentrate minds sufficiently I’m sure!
More on the morass here:
http://1010wins.com/topstories/winstopstories_story_195140402.html
It takes THREE people to make a budget (WHY we even have assemblypeople and senators is beyond me, they're redundant and EXPENSIVE) and the kids are flinging poo at one another. And in an ELECTION YEAR ... shows the absolute contempt for the voters since they'll get reupped anyway and most of them are running UNOPPOSED! :(
Translation of article: Shelly is making at least an effort to see that NYC schools don’t get shafted (and there is at least a semblance of following the court order). Since it isn’t Bruno’s district, he and Pataki don’t care and don’t want to spend the money, since no-one actually wants to raise taxes to pay for the mess. Result: stalemate until someone blinks first.
I return to my assertion: if we don’t allow emergency appropriations to fund salaries for the legislature (including the governor) there will be a budget tout de suite!
And while it's PERFECTLY OK for the state to stiff you for the payment, it's illegal to withhold services for nonpayment. "Do as I say, not as I do" ... the hallmark of the GOP these days. I'd rather deal with criminals. At least they play by SOME of the rules. :(
:0)
One thing that could help a 7 extension is reworking the engineering plan so it doesn't cost nearly $2 billion. I don't know if that is possible.
If only the La Guardia project is killed, MTA could still break ground on SAS and get a fair amount of initialsegment work done. Or they could give the money to LIRR to accelerate the next phase of work on ESA. That could include building the Sunnyside station early. This is a station which could see passenger service before the tunnel to Grand Central is finished, because it is intended to serve Penn-bound trains.
Maybe one way to save $$ is, for example:
Consolidate the entrances to the Javits terminal, and integrate the station into Javits' expansion plan. This would reduce the cost of that station by reducing the amount of hardware needed - and it would allow some budget shifting by having the budget for Javits itself cover the escalators leading to the subway entrances and so on.
But wouldn't that defeat the purpose of a line extension that is being build almost exclusively for special events?
The extension is NOT being built "almost exclusively for special events." The city is rezoning the area with the intention of adding 20 million square feet of office space on the West Side over the next 20 years.
Not only will the 7 train be necessary, but within 20 years there will be the need for even more subway service on the far West Side.
This is where the TA should try to shift the cost of providing entrances to the Javits project itself.
Please note, you can have one very large, high-capacity entrance to the subway, and all the pedestrian routes toward that entrance (escalators, elevators, passageways, whatever) could be an integral part of Javits, and paid out of that pot. Even people on the street would have to walk into Javits property to enter the subway. Designed properly, it wouldn't have to be inconvenient (you walk into GCT's building to reach the IRT).
In theory, the Javits, the Stadium, and the Extension would all be paid for by the real estate and other taxes enabled by the subway and the rezoning. If it isn't, it comes from higher taxes and service cuts elsewhere in the city. So there really is no other pot. In fact, the extension and the rezoning is all you need to get the revenues.
The SAS has been in danger from the moment the 2000-04 MTA Capital plan was financed with as much debt as it was. I was furious then, and am furious now, and am not along. If it isn't built, that will be why.
Would you say that the RPA's analysis of the debt is correct?
http://rpa.org/pdf/MTACapitalplanrelease.pdf
At the expense of how much safety?
Maybe some of the entrances don’t have to be so big, have so many escalators etc, but there should be at least two entrances to everything.
Do the following stations below have at least 3 subway entrances, as per your theory?
York St/IND
155th st/8th Ave/IND
110th St/Central Park North/IRT Lenox
103rd st/IND
Kingston Ave/IRT
Nostrand Ave/IRT
Botanic Garden/BMT Shuttle
And if you want to include street level entrances, include Grant Ave/IND, Clark St/IRT, and Wilson Ave/BMT to your list.
Do the following stations below have at least 3 subway entrances, as per your theory?
(list snipped)
OK folks - what's stranger: RonInB attempting humor or NPDave not reading everything that was written?
David, since Ron ended his statement with a snide remark, I'm afraid I have to give this one to him. All of the stations you listed meet his description of having three portals, two of which you wouldn't normally use. All of them have at least three portals - one for customer use that exits to the street and two for train use, one for railroad north and one for railroad south, these latter two being ones you would use "at your own risk."
I agree with you, 1 point goes to Ron this time, plus 1 bonus point as well. :-)
Sure there are many stations that don’t meet this criterion, just as there are non-ADA-compliant stations. The subway is old. That’s no excuse for not designing new stations to 21st century safety standards!
It wasn't very funny, just mildly so, so you're giving me more credit than I deserve.
NJ Transit information here.
Let's see what plan, the LIRR has for it's customers.
Probably nothing. "Please use Flatbush Avenue instead of Penn Station if possible" is probably what they are going to tell us.
Unless a lot of people decide to take vacations that week, the subway won't be able to handle the transferring volume.
All valid NJ TRANSIT tickets to New York will be honored by NY Waterway Ferry for travel to and from Pier 11 and the World Financial Center only at no additional charge.
All valid NJ TRANSIT tickets to New York will be honored by Lakeland and DeCamp bus lines for travel to and from New York at no additional charge.
Does that mean that if I purchase the lowest priced NJ Transit ticket, I can use it for unlimited service on those lines during the RNC?
(good luck to the nj commuters).
Arthur Thomas
Second, to answer the question:
Market-Frankford Line: 6 car trains at all times. Occasionally runs 4 car consists on holidays. Night owl operations are done by bus for the length of the route, stopping within walking distance of Millbourne and Spring Garden stations, and directly at the other stops (using the Route 21 berths at the South Terminal at 69th Street Terminal, and the Route 3 berths along Pratt Street at Frankford Transportation Center). Former overnight train operations were done with 3-car consists, now impossible due to the married pair nature of the M4 cars.
Broad Street Line: Local, Express, and Special trains use 5-car consists. Express service is reduced during midday hours, and curtailed weeknights after 7:00 PM and all day weekends. Special trains are run only when thee is an event at one of the stadiums or arenas at Pattison. There are some single end and some double end cars (I think the 500 series are single end units, and the 600 series are double end, based on the fact that car #666 (used only for the money train for whatever reason) is a double-end car), and the consist can be any mix of both, but always keeps the cab ends at either end facing opposite directions, as trains simply change ends at some terminals. Broad-Ridge Spur trains use 2 car consists at all times, despite room enough for eight cars originally as is the case with the main line. However, some Ridge stops were shortened. Night Owl operation is done by bus as well, despite the line being UNDERGROUND (Fern Rock notwithstanding), and therefore nowhere near anyone's bedroom window. Former overnight operation car count per train currently unknown, but I believe it may also have been 3 car trains.
Arthur Thomas
And if it were a problem having the trains run every half hour so late, why not step up the frequency? I think the last trains of the night on the MFL are but 15 minutes apart.
For those not from Philadelphia, when the cars are diverted from the subway: Instead of going into the portal at 40 and Woodland, they go over to 38th St., then north on 38 to Market, where they turn to 40 St. back to Woodland. The #10 goes south from Lancaster Avenue onto 40th to Market and north again on 38 St, I think.
10: South from Lancaster on 40th Street, layover on 40th at Filbert, ten west on Filber and north on 41st Street to Lancaster Avenue. Not sure if the bus ops even go to 40th & Market, but I'd guess they do. They might also take Market instead of Filbert when bustituted as they are now; the tracks for the 10 diversion don't actually reach Market Street (however, a 10 that changes to an 11, 13, 34, or 36 on diversion will cross Market).
And maintenace is probably the least of SEPTA's concerns; 30th Street Station's current level of maintenace is due to the recent addition of elevators, bumpy tile, and the new canopy entrances at 30th & Market. Before that was done, 30th Street looked as dirty as it did when the traisn DID run all night, if not worse. I have also heard that part of the NiteOwl bus service was so they could have more time to rehab the Frankford Elevated, and they ran the BSL as bus to match (so in a sense, the Subway-Surface lines are left exposed at 15th Street, and you can get in free). I've heard that once te Market Street rehab is finished, they plan to restore overnight rail service. We'll see what come of that, but I figure if NYC's huge system can pull off the trick, as can PATCO's one line, SEPTA should have no problem.
til next time
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
--Mark
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It was where the wrestling match in Spider-Man 1 took place.
By far, they were one of the most attractive parts of the original IRT, yet most of them are gone now. :( The MTA should reconsider remaking more of them.
Actually, I think they are all gone. The ones at Astor Pl are reproductions I believe.
At my local market (Appletree Supermarket, 121 and Amsterdam) there are pictures of the neighborhood - farmhouses, sheep, and the like. Yeah, this was the "sticks" not too long ago...
Semper Paratus
damn shame...
'test' cars don't seem to get a lot of love. Seems strange though, they'd be perfect for something like franklyn av shuttle.
So what's happening to the red bird that ws there? any idea where it wen?
David
Oddly enough, the R11's were rebuilt, despite the fact that there was only 10 of them.
the r110a/b... shame. simply.
I think its bullshit,and a shows everyone the wastefull contempt the MTA/TA has for it patrons....
Test cars or not...the cost justified the means...
You can waste cash on two diferent set of "TEST TRAINS"..then bitch later that you don't have enough money to sustain yourself..
you raise the fare a full 50 cents,and still cry broke...
City brings you to task for it,you cook two sets of books to cover your ass....
Pompus jerks....YOU can fool some of the people,some of the time...
but you can't fool ALL THE PEOPLE,ALL THE TIME...
Could ahve striped the down to the bare metal gut the entire car, then place the new equipment in a brand new like train ......
NO EXCUSES ...
David
No excuses.....
-Broadway Buffer
Anyway. Why is ANYONE saying that the R110s were NOT built to last?
even if the R32s were 10 years old, they would be out of service by now if there were only 10 of them.
While the R110s likely WERE built to last, Keeping a whole spare parts inventory probably(clearly, with what is the current situation, it is not) isnt economically worth it for 9 and 10 cars.
David
It's nice to see the R16 there, but with the impending R160's making their debut next year, the R110b is the most logical choice as the training car. Most of the newer cars have the brake handles built-in, older models must use the universal brake handle. Assuming all of the R160's have replaced older models, you have only 625 cars in the "B" division that use the old fashioned braking system (425 R68 and 200 R68A cars). The remaining 2,500 cars do not use the brake pipe and the training needed is a car that is compatible with the newer equipment. That car would be the R110B. There are still about 800 cars in the A division that use the brake handle (R62/62A), but this dwarfs the 1,500+ R142/142A cars that have the brake handle built in the controls.
til next time
This afternoon I finally sent the Centennial Commemorative Edition of my track map book to the printer and it should be ready to ship tomorrow afternoon.
Aside from a slightly changed cover, it now depicts the state of the system as it was last week, including the reconfiguration at Nassau Street (new signal and switch information was just received last night!), and the changes at the Stillwell Avenue terminal.
This is a major update to the third edition, but if you just purchased version 3.6 or even 3.5 it's not a huge change. If you have a version prior to 3.5, however, it's a very significant update on the state of the system.
As always, if you have any questions or comments, please feel free to drop me an e-mail.
Thanks to one an all in this forum for your support and help in making this what it is. I really couldn't have dont it without you -- nor would I have wanted to!
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
Centennial Commorative Edition Now Available!
Definitely, although canned announcements could get annoying:
"This is a 69B service to Hollywood."
"The next stop will be King's Heath Church."
"Change here for the 11A and 11C Outer Circle, and the 27, 35, and 50."
"Quicker arrival at the Maypole is possible by changing here for the 50."
"This is King's Heath Church."
"This is a 69B service to Hollywood."
etc...
They actually do announce stops at the Isle of Wight, which makes life much easier.
http://www.portauthority.org/grow/images/system_map.pdf
The craziest thing is they have very nice bus and rail system, and they have just re-opened a new light rail line, and in a few months the service will be much more frequent, according to one hard-to-find rail map, which shows eventually 2 lines on each branch. But the map is impossible to understand, at least to me.
I wonder how much the image consultants earnt for this one…
They didn’t earn anything. They might have been paid though…
I think FirstGroup is trying for the N’Arrive-pas award for the worst transportation group in Britain!
If you want bus photos, I have a few I can scan and send you if you like.
Mark
If you want bus photos, I have a few I can scan and send you if you like.
Sure, go ahead. My email is thomas7381@juno.com
Arthur Thomas
Mark
Does Eric Deal post here? (He is also mentioned in the article.)
Dave, here is the link if you want to link it on the main page:
http://www.nynewsday.com/news/local/newyork/columnists/nyc-sanchez0715,0,1361700.column?coll=ny-ny-columnists (It is linked above.)
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
:-)
Dave P. - is that true?
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
Well that's as clear as mud.
:)
It might be cruder than Webalyzer (which probably takes the same source as input), but it gives the page view statistic quickly and cheaply.
PS: You might think about learning something about the Unix(/Linux) command line interface and the scripts available. It’s amazing what you can do. After all your site is running Apache under Linux!
Since the article mentions an R9 cab in his apartment............
This place can't be serious enough... There's 600 volts of current running through that 3rd rail... That's dead serious.
By the way, if people are going to call me "Mr. Kronenberg", at least spell it right...
I wonder how many people are going to point out that "volts" is not current. All I know is "What's the unit of power?"
Uh, BTW, I hear some people have to call you Sir Kronenberg....but I'm not one of them. ;-D
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
You don't know watt you're talking about :P
Power - watt (DC); volt amp (AC)
Current - ampere
Voltage - volt
Resistance - ohm
Capacitance - farad
Inductance - henry
And of course the answer to your question is yes. (Which it seems like some posters don't realize).
Seize Cents Soixante-Quatre?
Before I spoke with Ray, I had some time to think about my feelings about SubTalk. Over the last 5 years it has given me an opportunity to give voice to my somewhat twisted way of looking at things. That's been my trip. And for each person posting here, it provides an opportunity to be part of a community of people with a common passion for mass transit. We all bring our own history to Subtalk and hopefully our sense of who we are will grow and change.
That's not to say everything is perfect here. Sometimes the more vulnerable amongst us get a dose of righteousness and abuse from the more aggressive amongst us. For myself, I find those moments often too much to bear.
I am curious to see if Ray will devote at least another 2 articles about SubTalk so that we will be tied with Eddie Jabbour's new map and Darius's comings and goings.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
And still, people play LOOTO. What was it that W.C.Fields said? "Never give a sucker an even break." New York's official motto. Heh.
Your pal,
Fred
CG
Your pal,
Fred
Too simple.
I don't know you, but let's say you're an average American -- you have a job, pay your bills on time almost every month and even manage to put something away for retirement. Winning $3 million bucks would have a significant impact on your life.
On the other hand, a single dollar doesn't make a significant difference to your life -- if somebody snuck into your wallet and took just one dollar out of it, you might not even notice. Or if a soda vending machine swallowed your dollar and didn't dispense your Dr. Pepper you might curse but not call the number on the machine for a refund.
What would you rather have -- the single dollar, or a chance (even if the "expected value" of that chance is less than $1) at $3 million? Many people will rationally choose the chance at the big bucks. Others will (equally rationally) choose to keep the buck. The choice gets to what economists call "utility theory", and is really the study of preferences.
It is worth pointing out that this theory does not explain why some people will spend well beyond their means on the lottery.
Also worth noting is that there is an extension of this lottery type thinking that goes on to explain why people (of predominantly very low income) will play "instant" lottery games for relatively small prizes -- but that's so dang far off topic (and somewhat controversial) that I'll just stop here.
CG
There are much better ways to invest that $365. Even though stocks are down, the market as a whole has never lost over any 30-year period. Throw it in your IRA or something. It won't grow to 3 million, but it won't just disappear like money spent on a losing lottery ticket.
Mark
Most people complain about taxes yet see nothing wrong in donating money to the state in the form of lotteries!!
CG
I thought it was "There's a sucker born every minute", or was that P. T. Barnum?
Peace,
ANDEE
Mark
You gotta expect this from a city that promotes gambling. You gambled $3.00 and lost !!
Bill "Newkirk"
An all-day ticket is $10.00
What language is this?
Mark
Eventually, plans are to extend the system out to McCarren and all the way to downtown. That could benefit people who work at the airport.
Does that include the ones in thier orange vests?
Peace,
ANDEE
I've never thought of public ownership as part of the definition of public transit; although it's true that today almost all North American urban transit providers are in the public sector, this certainly wasn't the case before 1950 or so.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
Both, depending upon the location.
http://www.vegas.com/transportation/monorails.html
In general the monorail operates at the back of the east-side hotels, jogging even farther eastward toward the north end of the line to serve the Convention Center and the Las Vegas Hilton. This means that the monorail stations are a modest hike, a quarter-mile or so, from any of the hotels along the west side of the Strip.
A proposed future northward extension would cross the Strip and enter downtown Las Vegas a block or two to the west of it.
The ideal, cost-is-no-object, platinum-plated solution to rail transit in Vegas would probably have been a subway using high platforms (or low-floor cars) right under the Strip, with stops opposite all the major casinos, and extending all the way from the airport to Fremont Street. Mmm, yes, I can just see the casino owners acquiescing to two or three years of traffic disruption and a few billion dollars' expenditure to build that!
It will be interesting to see whether the monorail cuts substantially into traffic on the city buses (which often carry crush loads) and the rubber-tired, privately-owned Strip Trolley operation.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
According to the Las Vegas Monorail's website, they sell five categories of tickets: 1-ride, 2-ride, 10-ride, 1-day, and 3-day.
http://www.lvmonorail.com/ride_01_gettickets.php
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
Which reminds me, I was wondering if Salaam would be interested in helping me open up an all-you-can-eat Falafel and Latke buffet restaurant on the strip. 20% off if you can rip off our ad from the interior of a monorail card and show it at the register. :)
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Anyway. If it comes down to "what I'm looking for" I'd rather the posts were on topic.
Peace,
ANDEE
But I know what you mean, I saw the paper itself but am not sure which yard that photo is from. it isn't clear enough to determine the # on the front of teh cars.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
At approximately 10:30 a.m. the excursion train will operate to 59th Street/Columbus Circle, take on passengers, and leave at approximately 10:40 a.m.
The excursion train will operate via the 6th Avenue Line over the Manhattan Bridge, then via the “Q” Brighton Line, via the express track from Prospect Park to Brighton Beach Station.
The excursion train will then turn from Brighton Beach Station, proceed via Track A-4 to Kings Highway, where it will turn again and proceed via Track A-3 from Kings Highway to Brighton Beach and lay-up for lunch.
After lunch, the excursion train will leave Brighton Beach and proceed via the “D” West End Line, loop in 38th Street Yard, proceed to Coney Island Yard and loop.
From Coney Island Yard the excursion train will operate via the “N” Sea Beach Line express from Kings Highway to the “D” line, and proceed to 59th Street/Columbus Circle and end.
Train lays-up to 207th Street Yard.
Your pal,
Fred
Thank you
--Mark
Also, hopefully, the BU's will be able to operate under their own power.
No thanks, it doesn't matter if the ghost of Anthony Luciano is at the controls or not, I don't want another Malbone St. tragedy on our hands. Besides BU's cannot be operated in any tunneled sections and the shuttle have several tunnels. The rules stipulate no one is allowed to ride in the BU cars until we reach the outdoor sections of the MOD route.
--Mark
"The preliminary cause could be the fact that it was installed with inadequate anchors - plastic anchors with relatively small bolts and concrete nails," said Jim Gallagher, Metro's deputy general manager for operations.
A 24-by-30-foot section came crashing down at the start of Wednesday evening's rush hour, forcing the closure of one of the three entrances to the Farragut North station, the third busiest in the system. The fallen section was part of a dropped ceiling made up of wire mesh, narrow wood strips used as a foundation for plaster and concrete, Gallagher said.
Five light fixtures, ceiling tiles and wires also fell down in an area near the farecard machines under L St. and Connecticut Ave. The entrance was closed until Thursday morning.
Officials said they were checking the construction of ceilings in other rail stations for similar faults. The station is on the oldest stretch of the system and opened in 1976. Gallagher said he did not know when the ceiling was built. He said there are routine station inspections, but did not know when or if the ceiling was checked.
No was hurt, and considering the time of day, Metro officials said they were lucky.
Metro board member and District of Columbia Councilman Jim Graham said the accident underscores the cash-strapped transit agency's need for more money. Metro has been asking the federal government, D.C. and its suburbs for $1.5 billion over six years. Of that, $525 million would go toward maintaining the system. The rest of the money would be spent on new rail cars, buses and security improvements.
"This system is going to creak and crack and in some cases fall apart if we don't have these additional funds," Graham said. Preventative maintenance has not been cut back in stations, but Graham said it could be improved.
Mark
As I recall the original entrance passageway built in 1973 was demolished and rebuilt when the building on the southwest corner Connecticut Avenue and L St was built in the late 1980s. Fault may not fall with the contractor or inspectors that built the original entrance passageway. The plans used to build the existing entrance passageway may not have been the same plans used on the original entrance passageway.
I find very hard to believe that their was wood used in the support system for the wire lath that the plaster was applied to. Of all of the plans I have of various stations there is no wood in any of the specifications.
John
See http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=718946
(it's a long post, so search for 123)
CG
If you stick only with trams and U-Bahn (which here is basically just an underground tram) you can go from Krefeld to Duesseldorf to Duisburg to Muelheim to Essen to Gelsenkirchen to Bochum!
Metro Article on Toronto counterfeit bust
I know. Before you know it, they'll be driving cars instead of dog sleds.
I wonder how many years the contefeiting has been going on.
"Can I swipe you in, eh?"
Amtrak SLE screening article.
LIRR uses? They could take over one of the parking lots at New Hyde Park to process passengers for the morning rush...I'm sure that would over well...:0)
If your Congressman is a D, yes.
If there's an R, forget it.
All this rail baggage screening is just "window dressing". It's all courtesy of the depends wearing Department of Homeland (In)Security.
Trains in Madrid get bombed (BTW, the Spanish Police have caught or killed several of the perps, but nothing has been released as to who the bombers were allied to, Al Queda or Basque Sepeartists.
Whatever happened to "we have nothing to fear but fear itself."?
You wanna know what happened to that? Ya REALLY wanna know what happened? I'll TELL you what happened...
Mr. George W. Bush stepped into office. THAT'S what happened.
SAS
They were Muslims, apparently part of some local radical group not really affiliated with al Qaeda.
By the way, the belief seems to be that the electoral defeat of the Aznar government a few days after the bombings was not caused by the bombings themselves, but was an angry reaction to the government's almost desparate insistence that the Basque group ETA was behind them, even when evidence pointed otherwise.
It depends. Some Republicans are among the most consistent defenders of civil liberties in such cases - Bob Barr, and sometimes James Sensenbrenner, for example. Meanwhile, many of the so-called Democrats are too wimpy to stand up to the GOP conservatives pulling the panic button (including John Kerry). That's not to say Kerry will be no good; he will surely be infinitely better than Bush and Co.
As for fear - it's a great way to win elections. Put on your diapers. QED.
Wish, I had more info but I don't.......sorry.
DHS operates to a large extent on what I call "first degree thinking" - you see something and correct it without considering what alternate plans could be made. For example:
Suppose I walk into a Duane Reade and buy a MetroCard. I get on the R train at 42nd, ride it down to Bay Ridge, get out, rob a bank there (informing the teller that a thermos wrapped in duct tape with the end of a shoelace hanging out is in fact a bomb), and flee. Obviously this isn't the type of thing we like to see happening. So one guy gets up and says, "Let's stop selling MetroCards in drugstores, so this will never happen again." Then another guy gets up and says, "Let's terminate all subway service to Bay Ridge and have all trains skip 42nd so this will never happen again." Then the third guy gets up and says, "We should stop selling thermoses, duct tape and shoelaces to civilians, so this can never happen again."
Do you see the problem?
Real life examples:
Some of the 9/11 hijackers (and other hijackers before them) paid cash for one-way tickets. So, we reserve additional scrutiny for those who pay cash for one-way tickets. As a terrorist, I could evade any potential extra screening by simply using a credit card to buy a round-trip ticket (even if I have no intention of making the return trip). Who gets stuck turning his head and coughing for the TSA? Some poor bloke whose father just died. Good job guys.
The 9/11 hijackers used boxcutters. So, ban boxcutters (and an infinite panoply of other tiny sharp objects) from planes, and spend billions making it happen. Never mind that a US plane will *never* successfully be hijacked in the post-9/11 world (Yeah, you feel lucky today, punk?), and that there are plenty more deadly weapons one could make out of innocuous objects than these little pointy things - this is "homeland security," after all, and we can't fool around, can we?
The thing that nobody seems able or willing to do is to put themselves in the heads of the criminals and think like them. Or maybe they have done this and realized, as I did, that it's impossible to stop them, given their strategic and tactical advantages in deciding when, where and how to attack, so they resort to useless Band-Aid measures to make the public feel good.
I could keep going on describing utterly useless security measures but I'll stop here.
I'd like to think so, but I can't be so sure. The never-fight-back, never-resist-a-criminal mantra has been so thoroughly drilled into peoples' heads that you can't be certain if they'll react even in a life-or-death situation.
All it takes is one or two who will stand up and fight and many others will follow. It just takes one or two to set the ball rolling since nobody likes to be the one standout to make waves.
And in that group of 40, you're sure to include at least one or two off-duty or retired law enforcement officers, people who know martial arts or did a little boxing/wrestling "back in the day," at least a couple 20-ish 6'+ guys who'll never back down from a good fight. And in the good old days at least a couple of them would be carrying pepper spray, pocket knives, and the like. (Even today they still serve soda on the plane in cans, some terminal restaurants in the secure area issue metal cutlery, lighters and hairspray are allowed in carry-on, from my own experience rolls of quarters (and keychains) are allowed, and the in-flight magazines are quite stiff.)
I think off-duty LEOs (and retired, provided they keep their certification current) should be encouraged to carry while flying - we can't possibly put enough air marshals on board planes, and if there's a bunch of LEOs willing to stand in the gap, they should be allowed to do so. This would be in addition to arming the pilots, of course. There may need to be some modification of carry privileges, since they're typically issued by individual states and in general one state doesn't honor another state's permits (though there are many reciprocal agreements). And ditch the whole pointy object thing - look for large explosives, install blast-proof cargo holds (like El Al uses), and secure the cockpit door. Anything less fierce than a Rambo-style survival knife, sawzall, bolt cutter, the jaws of life, sledgehammer or pick-ax is ok.
Welcome to the Not-So-Brave New World...
The day that the 7 line extension opens, it will be more than enough capacity for this area. That will soon change. By the end of the 20 years, there will be a strong need for additional subway service in this area.
As I see it, the best way to do this is to extend the L train on 14th Street, and run it north on 10th Avenue. After a 57th St. station, it should run east on 58th Street where it can offer transfers to every subway it crosses. Initially it would terminate at Second Avenue, and eventually run into Queens.
This is more than another fantasy subway. Some type of additional subway service to the Far West Side will be needed, and the real estate industry will demand it. I say that after the current transportation projects are completed (and they probably will be), new subway service to the Far West Side might happen before the SAS gets connected to the Bronx and Brooklyn.
I envision a line running from North Manhattan along 10th (Amsterdam) down along West Street. This part is straight forward.
Here's where I get creative. I would allow the Eighth Avenue line (express tracks) to connect to the 58th Street subway. This would allow more express trains (H train?) to run along 8th without causing congestion at, and above, Columbus Circle. So a new express line would leave the 42nd Street station, and its next stop would be 7th Ave. & 58th St.
I would also, if possible, run either the N or W train west on 58th St., and then north on 10th Ave. This would help with crowding on the 1/9,2 and 3 trains.
Connecting the 58th St. subway to Queens is tricky. Queens Blvd. is already loaded. This is where planners may want to consider replacing the 3 track El in Astoria with a 4 track subway. The G and N (or W) could run up this, as well as the L and H train. With this running as a subway, it would be easy to extend it to LaGuardia, and further into Queens.
Running the subway to Lower Manhattan would be a no brainer. But what about running two tracks under the harbor to Governors Island, Red Hook, and beyond? That would work nicely, but it wouldn't be cheap.
The 10th Avenue Subway could leave North Manhattan for the Bronx, heading East along Fordham Road, and then along Tremont all the way to Throgs Neck. And then, long after we're all dead, someone might extend it from Throgs Neck to Queens, along Francis Lewis Blvd.
Well, that's my vision, but it has to start where there is, or will be, an urgent need. That need will be to keep the Far West Side viable as a business district, and I believe that extending the L train to run on 10th Avenue, and along 58th Street meets that need.
The IND,too wanted a 10th ave subway .....it was planned along with 2nd avenue subway,but dropped because of funding and WW2...
Too bad...
A line could be started from the Trump houses along the West side.
there is a tunnel built there for a line next to the Amtrak ROW...
It could run south to the Javits Center and new complex to be built there..join the 7 subway at the new station with across the platform transfers... and continue DOWNTOWN with a stop at 14th st.
The 14 st stop could be underground, in the 8th ave subway's Mezz'..
The line can continue to the new World trade center and onward to the old South ferry station of the IRT[it would be refurbished],once the New one is built..
looping around the station..the line would continue back uptown....
I know many of you sren't in favor of LRT systems in NYC...BUT in this day and age where building a subway line can cost BILLIONS...
I believe this can be done cheaper and faster than a full subway.
just my thoughts on the matter.
If additional service is needed, then another line can be run from somewhere in the UWS, possibly 72, down perhaps to Battery Park City. The North-South section from 14 to 72 would then be a 4-track line (why bother piddling around with anything less?)
But it's above the 6th Ave express tracks, by the way. (Not that you said otherwise.)
I don't see the wisdom of the city trying to concentrate all of its activities in Manhattan or of seeing the state line as a metropolitan boundary.
As far as the new Jets stadium, it will cover the rail yards. If the rail yards are not covered, the area won't develop. The building will also provide convention space. Finally, the Jets are willing to spend $800 million of their own money for a simple reason; New Jersey is not attractive on the international stage, and this is an international city. Its time that New York City perform a slight reversal, and be less willing to cooperate with the suburbs. There is much of New York City, in all the boroughs, that can be developed, and expanding the subway system goes hand in hand with developing New York City further.
Finally, it is irresponsible for New York City to contribute to urban sprawl, at its own expense. People who live in the 'burbs contribute to America's dependence on oil, and that lifestyle has been subsidized plenty. Its time that the cities reassert themselves.
If you want the benefits of New York City, move to New York City. Don't ask New York City to pay to move those benefits elsewhere.
If New Jersey were willing to fund an IRT extension to connect with and/or supplant PATH then I'm all for it. Commuting is not a bad thing.
As far as the IRT goes, no IRT line should be extended. They are overcrowded. The last thing that we need to do is further crowd these lines for a state that acts as an economic parasite.
Here's the link
-Chris
-RJM
I thought the doorbell was an announcement, "dingdong," and then beeping...
Awesome sounds!
\\Julian
I want to get more sounds of the doorchimes, unfortunately, my camera really sucks and can only record videos ONLY with mono sound :(.
So far, I have only one recording of the doorchime on a R142 or R142a, don't really care on #6 train... which got overcome by the loud noise of the #5 train passing by Astor Place on the Downtown tracks! Grr... the doorchime noise is swallowed up because of that. Will make another round of doorchime recording videos the coming week. If you see me, you'll see me with a black camera bag with a SLR-looking digital Kodak camera.
BTW, I didn't ride the R110a/b not even once. Was the doorchime really different?
Not really (according to the link posted by R36 #9346.)
However, nycsubway.org reports the doorchime to be different (their version)
"# New sounds when the doors close (probably due to new ADA regulations). There is a "Ding-Dong" and an announcement before the doors close, followed by "BEE-bee-BEE-bee-BEE-bee..." as the doors are closing."
Wonder where the BEE-bee BEE-bee BEE-bee went... Perhaps only on the R110a? Multiple doorchimes for the R110 series!?
\\Julian
Now, I'm just seeking a copy of the R110a doorchime =)
Although if you say its similar to that LIRR car, I'll look for that.
\\Julian
Do you know of a published study of subways and els. vs. buses, in NYC or elsewhere, in terms of average speed (total distance travel divided by total elapsed time) ?
From downtown Brooklyn to Ridgewood, you are (sadly) better off taking the G to Lorimer/Metropolitan, then the L, then the M.
Personally, I'd rather see the structure restored, lengthened and converted to light rail, a la AirTrain. There is no subway service in Midtown and the lower West Side west of 8th Avenue. Having another line there would be useful.
I think it would be a great idea, however, I think a subway line would be better, cuz it'd make far more stops in areas that need it. LIRR though can easily build over the west side highway, then dive underground in downtown.
Tracks Ahead - "The Ghan Railway" - WNETDT, Fri Jul 16 06:30pm EDT
Money Train (1995) - TBS, Sun Jul 18 04:00pm EDT
Tracks Ahead - "Joshua Lionel Cowan" - WNETDT, Mon Jul 19 06:30pm EDT
History Traveler - "The Greatest Journeys on Earth: Canada: Journeys Through the Rockies" - HISI, Tue Jul 20 10:00pm EDT
Transatlantic Tunnel - DSC, Wed Jul 21 09:00pm EDT
Wild West Tech - "Train Tech" - HISTORY, Thu Jul 22 10:00am EDT
Jane's New York - "Underground" - WNBC, Thu Jul 22 12:00pm EDT
Extreme Evidence - "Flashover" (London Kings Cross fire) COURT, Fri Jul 23 09:30pm EDT
Tracks Ahead - "Trains of Cuba" - WNETDT, Mon Jul 26 06:30pm EDT
Baltimore Tunnel Fire - DSC, Wed Jul 28 06:00pm EDT
David
Everything I've heard is that the Canarsie contract is running slightly behind.
Why it's a good thing? There are varying opinions on this matter, but the MTA swears that with the trains being controlled by computers, you can run more trains closer together, increasing both speed and service.
No it doesn't. WMATA has ATO but no CBTC.
Okay, let's try again.
Right now NYCT is unable to implement ATO because its impossible with the present conventional signal system.
Once CBTC is up and running, the jump necessary to use ATO is microscopic.
How then, does installing CBTC NOT "open the door" for ATO?
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
Excuse me but WMATA does not use Communication Based Train Control. WMATA uses fixed block track circuits to protect the movement of trains. The WMATA Automatic Train Control system is very different from Communication Based Train Control.
Though their are some FRA regulation that WMATA must comply with. WMATA is not regulated by the same standards of a common carrier railroad, WMATA follows the same regulation that most of the rail transit properties do in the United States
John
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
Can't
Bypass
Train
Caught up
Ouch.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
David
You will have to go back to around 1957 and Ted Kheel's arbitration ruling on eliminating the 2nd conductor from rush hour trains.
The rationale was that single conductors could not control more than 5-60 foot car lengths because that was the max that one of the two conductors on rush hour trains were currently handling.
And I'm not CERTAIN, but I believe part of that settlement also brought about stationary "platform conductors" to replace the second conductor at key stations where you had platforms on both sides, such as Bedford Park Blvd (CC), and Columbus Circle where the express middle platform was open and used up until shortly after I left during rush hours who would open your "offside" and close up for you. I remember there was one other place like that when I worked for the D in Brooklyn, but I can't remember which it was - MIGHT have been Brighton Beach but I forget. That too was done away with over the years.
I can only speak for the IND which was my home railroad, but just about the entire system was built for 11 cars. When the second conductor was eliminated, 11 cars went to 10 cars even in Queens on the IND. The BMT, running shorter trains generally, never whacked this wall. But it was definitely an issue on the IND.
David
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
What happens if there's no other work for the crew of a canceled run?
I hope they don't lose a day's pay, though I don't see that happening.
I have trouble believing that NYCT would start installing CBTC on the 7 before running tests on the L or at least making informal observations. (What if it's a flop?) The L has yet to run with CBTC, so it's too early to start installing it elsewhere.
Maybe the middle track at Willets Point will be available to turn trains instead of 111th.
David
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
The new signals, recently installed from Main St west have nothing to do with CBTC. Also, the R-62 has no room for the train-borne equipment.
R-32.
Robert
The first step of CBTC will be almost the same as normal service. it will involve things like the train enabling the doors instead of the T/O and the new CC being able to give direct information to the crews and better dispatching like holding to time and stuff like that.
Even if the Union wins the this battle the TA will just have to allow you to pick off after a pick. They are not going to skip CBTC unless they get a one year pick.
Look at the implementation date, over two months after we stop picking. They gave themselves a huge margin to play during which to run classes. Even if they have trouble there is no reason they can't start slowly like 1am-5am out of CNR on Saturdays and that would involve training what, 6 crews.
PLEASE, stop reporting unfounded rumors as fact on this board!
Besides, CBTC in its current form is probibited under the terms of the latest CBA between the MTA and the TWU.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
This train was really crowded for a eastbound in the mornin rush. Each pair of seats had atleast one seat taken through out the entire train, which I think was 4 cars long(C3, no transfer in Huntington).
About 1/4th the train got off at Syosset. It was a fairly nice ride to Port Jeff. We passed 2 trains. 420 was on a passing track around Northport I think, and I think the other was at Kings Park. Between Smithtown and Port Jeff, I layed down across the 2 seats and slept, gettin up every now and then to check out the views.
By the time we reached Port Jeff, there were still quite a few people left on the train, about 1/4th to 1/3rd. I was really suprised.
Got the S61 bus about 10 minutes later. Took it to the ferry. For those who haven't seen these things, THEY ARE HUGE!!!!!!!!
Filled out the application and handed in my resume for good measure at the ferry companies office, walked around town. Got the 11:00 S61 to the train station. Got some pizza, then got the 11:40 train. Saw what I think is the old Northport Village ROW. Transfered in Hicksville to an M7. Stopped Mineola, Hillside, Jamaica, Woodside, NYP.
After finding out I missed the waterway bus, I sprinted to the ferry terminal at 38th and 12th, just in time to see the ferry I was aiming to catch pull away. Fortunately, they run every 10 minutes or so. Got the next one to Port Imperial, walked down to the Waterway office, handed my resume. Went back to the ferry terminal.
Got the next ferry to 38th st. Took the FREE(YEY!) shuttle bus to Penn station, got a ticket for Port Washington. Made the train by 2 minutes. Ran into my mom on the train. I was suprised how crowded it was on the train(an M7). It was the last off peak(3:49). All stops to PW.
Got 35 pics, I'm dropping them off in a lil, hopefully they're good.
A few questions:
1. Why did LIRR waste money building 2 high level platforms at Greenlawn if they only use one?
2. Why is Port Jeff so wide? 6 tracks til the platform, 4 tracks at the platform(only 1 track uses platform)
3. What's the track goin off northwest from the Port Jeff line, I think between Northport and Greenlawn stations.
4. Is the Port Imerpial ferry terminal actually just a really big boat, or is it just made to look like that? It was not connected to land, and you could feel it rocking back and forth.
It's a yard. Before the LIRR went to a push-pull operation in the 1960s (1970s?) they used to lay up trains during non-rush hour.
<< 3. What's the track goin off northwest from the Port Jeff line, I think between Northport and Greenlawn stations. >>
Are you referring to the spur to the old Kings Park State Hospital?
Yes, it is an old ferryboat! I do believe, however, that plans are in the works to replace it with a large, modern facility.
For what sort of job did you apply?
As for waterway, they have an opening for ticket sales at Pier 11(downtown Manhattan) from 11:00am to 7:30pm paying 10 bux an hr(VERY GOOD PAY!). Hopefully they'll hire me for 6 days a week. I need a job. I'm goin nuts here at home(and yes, I have looked in town, just applied for eckerds and the movie theatre).
Are looking for summer work? If so, it might be hard to get hired for a job on one of the boats because there's probably quite a bit of training required. Workers on the ferries are responsible for evacuating passengers in emergencies. There may be some sort of Coast Guard certification required, I don't know for sure.
I guess they have those extra tracks at Pt.Jeff for storage. Just one more note, they go real slow before Pt.Jeff because of this curve
The track branching off I think was actually between KP and Northport.
Dylan
DYLAN
I was getting of the subway at 125th St 4/5/6 station, and took a walk over to the Metro-North station, anticipating some action on the MNR...I get on the platform, the track 2/4 plat, got ready to take some photos, when at first one MTA Police Officer came up to me, pulled me to the side and asked what I was doing. First, he asked me if I was taking pictures of the railroad tracks, and I told him no. He then asked if I was taking photos of the trains, I said yes. He said I wasn't allowed to do that. Wow, after all this time I wasn't hassled at that station, all of a sudden someone wants to question me about it. Anyway, he told me that I wasn't allowed to do it, I told him that I should be able to. After that, he was saying it wasn't allowed, then after my questioning it, he mentioned that it was in the railroad rules that it wasn't allowed.
I was told to show him some ID, which I did, and he wrote it down and relayed what was happening on his radio, and that's when a second officer came over and asked me the same thing. He was a little easier to speak with, he was saying that they were just checking me out, seeing that I wasn't doing any suspicious behavior and that because of the post-9/11 stuff and because of people being stopped and saying they are hobbyists when they were probably suspicious persons, they had to stop and question me, make sure I check out. The officer I originally got stopped by, I got his name and badge number, and I will file a complaint with the MTA possibly online or in person at the stationmaster's office, or both, most likely both.
We then had a discussion about why photography wasn't allowed, but the officers weren't hearing it, they were insisting that I had to be thoroughly checked and that they were only just doing their job enforcing the law and everything. I was telling them my purposes, even allowing the second officer to inspect the photos on my camera, as requested by the officer, and then after close examination, giving it back to me. He told me he understood that I was a hobbyist and not a terrorist, but he insists that I had to be stopped assuming that I could have been the opposite of who I said I was. So, I asked questions and tried to get answers from the two officers...as to why this is going on, again they gave me these post-9/11 excuses, then saying that my home stop is sensitive territory, that there are trains there that go to an even more sensitive area (namely GCT), that I wasn't allowd to take photos of the railroads at that stop or most any stop, etc.,etc. I was outraged, so outraged that when I was told I could go, I still sat there and tried to get some answers from the two...how silly was that? But, I had my reasons for asking what I asked and trying to find out what the deal is...but I have to take that up with the MTA. He was insisting that I leave them alone, which I did after a while, then after assuring that I wasn't arguing with him (my tone very much seemed like it) he insisted that I was getting an attitude and just told me to leave the premises...not wanting to raise my voice or get a temper, I just left, not getting any good photographs there.
Now, before ANYONE HERE starts giving me the whole "We realize you got hassled but why aren't you taking this up with the MTA cuz posting it here won't help one bit" bullshit talk, I *AM* going to take it up with someone up in the MTA, either online or at the Station Master's office or even 347 Madison, if I have to. Because this has gone too far. All this time I was able to photograph Metro-North from 125th or any station, and all of a sudden, i'm told I can't anymore, what am I supposed to do (what are WE AS PHOTOGRAPHERS going to do, and I *did* mention us as hobbyists and railfans) , the officers had absolutely NO answer for that...
Well, I will take my business elsewhere if that's the case, OR I can take it up with people who will listen to me and all of us here who feel our hobby is at stake.
Thank you for listening, reading, watching, whatever...
SAS
I'm not.
Now, before ANYONE HERE starts giving me the whole "We realize you got hassled but why aren't you taking this up with the MTA cuz posting it here won't help one bit" bullshit talk...
Your post is clearly on topic so there is no need to defend yourself.
Well, I will take my business elsewhere if that's the case, OR I can take it up with people who will listen to me and all of us here who feel our hobby is at stake.
Thank you for posting your story. I am very interested in hearing ALL such stories like yours, and I'm sure many other people are too. These stories need to be told so that everyone realizes what is going on and how bad it is getting. I fully support you in your decision to take the matter up with the MTA, and if you need any help with anything related to this, don't hesitate to ask.
I'm glad you posted this report of your harassment, albeit mild. I would complain too (as you are going to). As Brian said, we do need to report these incidents to our fellow photographers.
Conversely, and not to gloat, I railfanned from New Haven to Old Saybrook today and nary a peep.
Good luck with the complaint process and keep us posted.
Your pal,
Fred
SAS
NYCTA and SIRTOA rules state photography and videotaping are permitted. That may not be true for LIRR and MNCR, and it is certainly disallowed by TBTA.
David
If MTA says you can take ictures, then you can. Period. Hwever, as we;ve seen, you may need to be polite, firm, persistent and ultimately to consult an attorney. So be it.
You are referring to operation of the railroad and physical specifications for trains, not whether photography is is not allowed.
"MTA is only a oversight agency. "
No, MTA is oversight, funding and management. So, yes, they can make the rules, and others must follow.
For the RECORD though, Volume 21, Section 1050.9, Paragraph (c) is NEW YORK *CITY* RULES AND REGULATIONS and do not apply outside the 5 boroughs. One of the reasons why I wonder IF there are rules is THIS interesting morsel which only confuses things further ...
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/rules/si.htm
It would SEEM as though the NYCT rule is about to applied to the FRA SIRR entity. Now this doesn't necessarily mean SQUAT with respect to MNRR since SIRR is within the city limits and hell ... 44's? It's a SUBWAY even if the FRA gets to kick the wheels every now and then and probably require a blue card every midnight ... but still ... hmmm. :)
But to "SIRT," it's a different rule number entirely which reinforces my argument that 1050.9(c) is SOLELY NYCT and extends to no one else. In fact, based on the lack of information, it would seem that MNRR and LIRR has no rules at *ALL* in this respect! :)
Never a dull moment watching our lawgivers make sausage, and this one's right on the grill being made fresh daily. Just like cowpies. (grin)
No, they are two separate entities, with two separate sets of regulations (Part 1040 for SIRTOA, Part 1050 for NYCTA & MaBSTOA) that happen to be worded similarly.
NYCRR stands for New York [State] Codes, Rules, and Regulations, not New York City.
But bottom line, I couldn't FIND anything pro or con with respect to photography on Meatball Norsk or on "LIAR" ... methinks management was suffering from rectal-cranial intercession and never promulgated such rules. And if there ain't a rule, then there's nothing to enforce. I find this ... "amusing" ...
Thou that shalt provideth the gold shall maketh the rules...
Anybody who's truly interested in finding out what the rules (if any) are regarding photography on MTA's commuter railroads would probably be best off contacting MTA and asking.
David
Gimme a break.
I understand that the platform is MTA property, but if I cannot partake in a simple harmless activity such as photographing trains as a hobby, then it tells me that I am not welcome on their property or that I cannot feel welcome on their property enough to use their facilities and ride their trains. Maybe I will start driving and add an extra car on the road...oh, but they don't want that, now, do they? Noooooo...so in order to win me back, they will have to reconsider what they are writing into their books...note that I didn't say force them to change their minds, as I know too well that I cannot do that...
SAS
"Terrorist might hit this,they might hit that...."
"Buy duct tape,survival gear...extra food..."
"the terror alert is Orange today..watch your ass..".
"you can't take pictures,because this is a potential target..."
And guess what..do you think those people are that stupid..?
Do you honestly think they would try something like that here ever again,knowing what they started?
This so called Ban on taking pictures is a direct violation of our rights,and is a direct attack on Americans by our so called leaders...and it's just the begining....
By all means the person this problem started with should take it directly to the MTA,BUT I doute if anything will become of it...
they have cops enforcing a nonexisitant law by "force" if need be...
Ive come to accept this ,after my run in with them at South Ferry.....
The United States has changed ,people..and not for the better....
NEW YORK CITY TRANSIT currently allows photography in PUBLIC AREAS of its property. We have not been informed as to the rule on the Long Island Rail Road and Metro-North, and we know that photography is not allowed on/in Bridges & Tunnels' facilities.
David
As I did elsewhere in this thread, I suggest that anybody who's truly interested in finding out whether photography on the MTA's commuter lines is legal or not contact the MTA and ask.
David
If MTA says you can, and LIRR/Metro-North regulations list nothing to the contrary, then you can - period. As to TBTA - that's why you need a lawyer.
The only way any of this will be worked out is if a class-action suit is filed and a judge enjoins MTA and its agencies from infringing on the rights of photographers. That takes $$$ nd time.
David
There is a large degree of "what's not allowed is forbidden" in US law. MNCR has signs specifically telling what IS forbidden on MNCR property (such as hanging around a platform without a ticket). NYCT has carefully enunciated what is forbidden, both in signs and on its web site. The typical public park has a large sign stating exactly what is forbidden. We know bridges and tunnels don't allow phtoso because there are signs.
Since MNCR doesn't say anywhere that photography is forbidden, the reasonable presumption is that it is allowed.
Also, we know from prior experience that asking their PR department will not necessarily provide a correct answer. NYCT's PR organization was telling Subtalkers that photography of all kinds was forbidden without a permit (which wasn't being issued), and yet then NYCT announces proposed rules to prohibit photography of all kinds without a permit. Clearly NYCT PR was simply misrepresenting the facts.
AIM I often hang around MNCR platforms at a variety of stations to watch the rush hour. I don't bother to take my camera since I prefer to just watch. Even when Metro-North police have been present - and seemed to be somewhat aware of me - I've never been stopped or questioned. I'm curious to know, where are these signs posted?
At the entrance to numerous tracks at GCT.
Amtrak consistently does not allow anyone to descend to track level at Penn Station before the announced boarding. At Penn that has always meant the train is already "berthed." At 30th Street in Philly access to the platform has been allowed prior to the train's arrival.
Of course I also noticed the much-maligned LIRR was routinely posting track numbers and opening gates about 15 minutes before departure. And in the heart of the rush hour too.
Rush hour trains generally use the same platform each day. That is why the cows-at-the-slaughterhouse-chute half-moons form long before the tracks are announced, sometimes when an earlier train is boarding at the platform.
Not consistently.
On which level(s)? I've only seen signs similar to what you describe on the lower level. And that's where I was met by two policemen and a police german shepard about 10 seconds before I was about to pass under the sign at one of the lower level gates.
From the walkway, NYCDOT. The tracks might be NYCTA, but you shouldn't be there anyway.
Verrazano-Narrows
Marine Pkwy/Gil Hodges
Triborough
Throgs Neck
Whitestone
Henry Hudson
Cross Bay Veterans
Queens-Midtown Tunnel
Brooklyn Battery Tunnel
The Brooklyn, Queensboro, Williamsburg and Manhattan Bridges are not part of it.
Oh no - there are pictures online of all nine!!! Better fetch the depends...
Verrazano-Narrows
Marine Pkwy/Gil Hodges
Triborough
Throgs Neck
Whitestone
Henry Hudson
Cross Bay Veterans
Queens-Midtown Tunnel
Brooklyn Battery Tunnel
Photos courtesy of the MTA.
Don't you just love attacks of backside and elbow disease?
-O. B. Laden
S. Hussein
David
David
1. Taking of pictures FROM, not OF, the bridges is prohibited.
Yes, that's correct. On MTA B&T bridges, a sign is posted indicating that no photographs may be taken FROM the bridge.
David
However, taking a picture from the walkway, if one exists, shouldn’t be a problem.
Also, it’s another rule that’s sporadically enforced. When I did the 5-borough bike ride a few years ago, people were taking pictures on the Verrazzano and no-one complained. (Mostly the pictures were of the riders with Manhattan in the background). I also cannot believe that there are no pictures from the bridge during the NY marathon!
So basically, if Osama wants to take pictures of the infrastructure in order to facilitate attack, it's ok so long as there's a smiling guy wearing a turban waving back in the picture. If not - it's off to Guantanamo!
(or something like it, there are hundreds available), and takes all the photos he wants. It’s technology such as this that makes these photo bans ludicrous.
There are certain specific places on a bridge (and OBL knows exactly what palces those are) where, if you had an hour or two of leisure to pack explosives in just the right way (which no terorist would), you could bring down the bridge.
So the idea is to keep the alleged mastermind from photographing that place, and then telling the implementers: here's where to pack the explosives.
It's still farfetched to think that the photo ban has any value, but at least it's much easier to understand than relative to the subway.
So the argument is not only weak but wholly specious.
So, I guess, to the bureauweenies, it’s a difficult decision about where to place the bombs etc, so terrorists will need lots of photos etc, etc. Hence they think the ban will help.
In the real world, OBL and associates have access to engineering expertise, and they size up the bridge in ten seconds, photoban or no and know where to put the old C4. I know I could do it.
Oh no - there are pictures online of all nine!!! Better fetch the depends...
Haha. Seriously it has been clarified that you can't take photos from the bridges.
Yeah, our military bases are tax dollars at work, but we aren't talking about army tanks or missiles or anything the civilian public has any access to...we have access to revenue service trains, so therefore why can't we be able to photograph them?
Now, before you go off and attempt to spoon feed any ad hominem or some other fallic logic in my mouth, think about what I am trying to say here, I am trying to say that anything which is understood to be in public domain, whether privately or publicly owned, should be permitted to be documented, photographed, written down, drawn, etc...
Please save the arguments for a rainy day. This is out hobby at stake, here...this is our livelihood at stake...next thing they might do is tell us we can't talk ill of the MTA on public message boards or tell us we can't watch trains while on their property or things like that...
To think that just because you're an employee this doesn't really matter to you as much as us little guys. Well, guess what? I have heard stories of even employees being questioned for certain behavior related to this. Not only that, it's about the ability for some of us non-employees to enjoy ourselves and express ourselves in the form of rail photography and the likes.
Thank you
SAS
But unless MNCR rules actually prohibit photography, then photography is allowed. The police officer is committing a civil offense, for which the MTA can be sued, if he is just making up the rule about photography. The only rule I've ever seen posted is that you have to have a ticket, not that photography is prohibited.
On the other hand, maybe the rule does exist. But it doesn't appear to be on the MNCR portion of the MTA web site.
I couldn't agree more. You won't find a more pro-police person than yours truly. But we cannot and must not deny the existence of those few "bullies with badges" who get off on this stuff. And they are probably having the time of their lives right now...regrettably, at our expense.
You are absolutely right. And then there are the Gestapo agents who are jerks just because they can be, or because they've had a fight with their wives, or not gotten a promotion, or or fighting a hangover, or any other myriad of reasons -- including enforcing obtuse or non-existent rules and laws.
They do a lot of stuff, and they also have the tendency to screw up; like anyone human. So before you bash the cops and say they don't do anything, next time you're in a 911 situation, I hope they don't respond to help you out.
W Bwy
SAS
[note: metro north may be private property, so the rules may not apply.]
http://www.krages.com/ThePhotographersRight.pdf
...also in case somebody confronts you in regards to "copyrights"....
if you are on the street, or public property, adn can see a private building, then there is no copyright infrigement.
http://www.megalaw.com/top/copyright/17usc120.php
and don't let those thugs bully you into thinking you may be a terrorist, thaat's ridiculous; that's the gov't putting the FEAR into you.
Sometimes I get so disgusted I wish Nimby had...ummm, on second thought, forget it. ;=D
Case No. 2 - Just read a letter the NJ Transit Police Chief sent to some newspaper denying ANYONE is ever prohibited from photographing NJ Transit equipment or facilities from public property. SubTalkers, we know he's lying, right? Now he told the paper they DO prohibit people from photographing ON NJ Transit property without a permit. Then he cited the law - which the news article the Chief was all upset about apparently had said doesn't exist. But the law he cited was something about Safe Conduct and he wrote, "You'll notice that it doesn't mention photography, but we feel that non-permit photography is implicitly included in unsafe conduct restrictions." Hey Chief, gimme a break!
These agencies have some very devious people in them. Wow!
I believe that situation was resolved. He won a judgment, and SEPTA was told it could no longer interfere with his playing music. I think they came to an arrangement where he can play to his heart's content in certain places but agrees not to in others. I haven't seen any press about this in the last couple of years.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
The Metro-North police officer was talking out of his hat. What Railroad Rules?? The Consolidated Railroad Laws of NY State were abolished in 1967 and replaced by a revised NY State Penal Law. I was in the Police Academy at that time. One of the instructors who was lecturing on the subject stated that revisions were needed, due to the obsolence of many laws -- among them, vagrancy and loitering statutes.
This may have led to the issuance of the NYC Transit Authority Rules and Regulations, later changed to NYC Rules and Regulations, which was implemented in 1967, coinciding with the abolishment of the Consolidated Railroad Laws.
How is MNCR or most LIRR federally controlled?
The Photographer's Right - A Downloadable Flyer
Your Rights When Stopped or Confronted for Photography
> They are issued for a longer period of time than one day or one month...1 to 3 years is reasonable
> They are renewable
> They are good for the entire system, and not just one location
> An ideal proposal along these lines would be a nationwide photo permit which would be recognized and respected by ALL transit properties, similar to the ones issued by the National Parks Service, and subject to the above conditions
Of course, THE ideal situation would be for our successfully convincing these publicly-funded (translation: taxpayer-supported) agencies to take and keep rail/bus photographers off of their "suspicious persons" lists. Short of that happening in the immediate future, how does this suggested compromise sound to some of you folks?
But if these publicly-funded (i.e., taxpayer-supported) agencies insist on being such "hard-@$$es" about it, these are the ONLY conditions under which I would even CONSIDER accepting such a policy.
Hopefully they will eventually come to their senses and re-evaluate their anti-bus/railfan thinking. I just hope it won't take an ACLU-type legal action to force them to do so.
Hell, you would think they would be flattered that there are people who are impressed enough with their trains, buses, and LRVs to want to photograph them.
No kidding.
When I open my bus company, I'm holdin photo contests for the best bus, rail, and ferry pics
This is the reality.
You need a permit to take pictures in National Parks?
-RJM
Definitely not.
Short of an ACLU-type legal action, this is the ONLY way this madness will end.
Here was my day...
I went down to Grand Central Terminal (and no, I didn't take Metro-North, even though it's right at my doorstep) and proceeded to the Station Master's Office (SMO) and spoke with a nice lady at the desk. We spoke about the incident that I had on Friday evening. She mention that because of the events that have occurred (since 9/11) and all of these terror threats and such, photography on MNR has been curtailed and subject to being checked out...HOWEVER, she seemed determined to find out what was the real case in terms of photography in the railroad system. She could only speak for Metro-North, not for the MTA as a whole, so she said that the only way for me to photograph without hassle by the MTA police, she suggested to call the SMO and let them know the times and locations that I would be on the property (including Grand Central Terminal and any MNR railroad station) and that I have the intention of photographing. Another idea was to obtain a permit from the MTA to photograph certain locations and certain times...now she and I both understood that having to obtain a permit shouldn't have to be necessary for me to just come on the property with the intention of photographing MNR's trains, but she mentioned that some sort of notice for her office is probably the best way to photograph on MNR property with minimum hassle.
The Stationmaster also contacted and allowed me to speak to a person in the Media Relations (?) office who would help me in my quest to photograph on MNR property and have as little of a confrontation as possible with the MTA Police. He told me that I can contact him at any given time that I wish to photograph on MNR property, as long as I give him some advance notice and he can mail or fax me a memo to show to MTA Police and that should cause them to back down on me. Again, I mentioned that all this shouldn't have to be necessary, but because of the times, it is the best I can do...for now. We spoke about the recent anti-photo attitude at New Jersey Transit and how they are stopping (and even arresting and confiscating cameras of) people that are found taking photos of NJT railcars (commuter and light rail) on their property AND off. The gentlemen and I spoke for upwards of a half hour on the SMO's phone, but it was an interesting and uplifting conversation, and he was willing to assist me in my goal to photograph MNR without getting too much hassle from MTA Police.
After I was done with the SMO, I went down to MTA Police HQ to see what I can get from them. I got down there, and the officer at first was inviting and polite, but as soon as we got to the photography portion of our conversation, she got stern right quick. She was firm in her assertion that since 9/11 NO photography was allowed of the trains, tracks, stations, and any MNR property. I tried to ask for proof in writing, and she only gave one more assertion that it was absolutely banned.
Well, you thought my battle ended there. Wrong. I took it a step further and after I left MTA Police HQ, I took myself out to Newark Penn Station to have a word with NJ Transit Police. Though I did get the run-around, and though the officers didn't seem to want to talk about the matter, I had a little discussion, much to the officers' disinterest. I spoke about why they were banning photography, and they gave a stern, brief explanation saying that it was because of the 9/11 events and because of the events leading to the Republican National Convention. The male officer first told me this, and the female officer chimed in later on. I was angered, obviously, not only because of the whole anti-photo attitude they have, but also because of the manner in which the officer addressed me. His attitude was cold and firm, stern, and stubborn. He was certain that NJ Transit Police was not allowing photography on ANY of their trains, ANY of their rail systems (including the NJT Commuter Rail, HBLR, NCS and the RiverLINE), any of their stations, ANY of their *private* property (which included Newark Penn Station), even of ANY of their rail equipment FROM CITY OR TOWN STREETS...anyone caught with a camera photographing NJT Rail will be arrested and have their camera and/or film confiscated...yes, that's right...CONFISCATED...all in the name of safety and security. The officer was mentioning that he had just confiscated two cameras within the last week! They were not playing games.
The female officer was talking to me about safety and security and how I can actually go across the street to obtain a permit, the guy was being a hard-ass the whole time, telling me that I had to have a date and time and location of where I plan to photograph, and not only that...but MY PURPOSE FOR DOING SO...when I told my purposes for doing so, the lady was shaking her head, and the guy was saying that they aren't going to buy my reason for photographing...i guess they were looking for a reason like for media purposes or a particular story I am out to do....sorry, bubba, I could have said that, but then I'd be lying, and I'm not a liar type of person. After I was directed over to NJT HQ, which I knew where it was, anyway, I got one last lecture of photography being banned.
Not to mention that I actually let them know how I felt about possibly being detained just for being a shutterbug, that I felt like I was being treated like a criminal (though they wanted me to think that they disgree, but I felt I knew better), and that a shutterbug is NOT a threat to terrorism. Then, the male officer tried to tell me that shutterbugs were the way the terrorists planned the Madrid bombings, which I think is absolutely false. I also spoke out about how I felt that taking pictures of sites doesn't equate to a terror attack, that you don't need to take pictures of the trains to plan how to blow them up, that you don't need pictures to carry out acts of terror...I was shut down by the male officer, he didn't let me finish, since he claims he didn't have time for debate or discussion...If he was able to tell me all that I asked him about, then he had time to hear me out for five more minutes...then, two more officers came over to check out what was going on, then they dismissed me right then and there, as if any more of what I said would just give them reason to arrest me and give all involved a hard time. So, I left.
I headed over to NJT HQ, gave my name and the name of the person I was to see, the receptionist called up and asked how I can get a permit. I stated my purpose, the receptionist was unsure that my purpose was going to sit well with the permit issuers, so she called up again to ask who gives the permits, which was their Real Estate Department (don't ask), and that I would have to deal with them...whether I go in to pick it up or ask for it on the phone, i don't know...she couldn't tell me. I have the number, so I will call within due time. Other than taht, she was unable to help me. Since talking to her wasn't gonna get me upstairs to speak to someone, I just left.
I took the PATH to the subway home, thinking about the whole situation and how it came about. Let's just say, the rest of the ride, I had politics in my mind.
And that is all...
BTW, I will try to speak to someone at the ACLU and the New York Chapter, the NYCLU, will join with them as an aid to win this battle, and I will also try contacting industry publications and the Media.
This is the end of this chapter of my story.
SAS
This has to be one of the best posts, ever. Thanks again.
most cops are in dire need of authentic counterterrorism training, and updated legal education; mimicking what they see on C*O*P*S, or geting advice from judge judy, or dreaming up the next big thing after swallowing two donuts and a big gulp is NOT police work.
Of course. They (and by "they" I mean the government powers, as well as Osama bin Laden), want you to be in fear, in terror. That's what "terrorism" is about.
Pull up those Depends, John - it's poopie time!
AND YOU CALL YOURSELF A RAILFAN?
If people with your mindset are the future of this hobby, we're in worse shape than I feared.
Jeez.
:-(
Or are you just talking out ur @$$ instead of out your mouth?
Railfanning and photography together are my recreational activity, for the most part. Not to say my life depends on or revolves around it, but this is part of who I am...and if these people think that they can hinder my efforts to provide an enjoyable railfanning experience, they are "99 and 44/100th percent" WRONG! It's not about what other people say, it's about telling law enforcement and the transit agencies that deal with them that we aren't terrorists and that not all shutterbugs are criminals, and not all criminals are shutterbugs, and so forth. There are people that I know who don't even think of taking pictures of trains as a hobby or a recreational thing to do, but just because it is photography, and just because many people love trains, and just because I am trying my best at my recreational activity that they are behind me 100-200 percent...
So re-think what you said and then come back to me on that...
Because I don't think you're a railfan...and you definitely seem NOT to support our cause...
and WHAT THE HELL IS THIS ABOUT HARRANGEMENT? Who said I was doing that? I was only trying to explain my side of this whole debate and trying to find ways of influencing law enforcement to back down on us, since they are the ones calling us "suspicious persons." Are you a suspicious person? I know I'm not, i dunno about you, but WE ARE NOT SUSPICIOUS PERSONS, WE ARE INNOCENT LAW-ABIDING, TAXPAYING CITIZENS who HAPPEN to like photographing trains and rail systems. IF YOU ARE NOT A SUSPICIOUS PERSON, I SUGGEST YOU SEE THE LIGHT AT THE END OF THE TUNNEL AND REALIZE THAT IF WE LET THIS CONTINUE, WE JUST MIGHT NOT BE ABLE TO DO WHAT WE CONGREGATE HERE AND DISCUSS DOING. This is our livelihood, and you are willing to give it up just because the cops say so? That's like you mother telling you that you have to stop socializing with everyone just because she says to go to your room and that you're grounded indefinitely...I sure wouldn't want that...
SPEAK UP, PEOPLE...WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE (and the smell coming from hard-hit train brakes...)
and that is all.
SAS
Do what you feel you have to do!!!!
PERSONALLY, I DON'T SEE anything WRONG WITH THE ACT OF VISUALLY RECORDING OUR TRANSPORTATION SYSTEMS. It's plainly obvious that this is not something to prohibit. Anybody can just ride the damn thing to find out all they need to know about it. See, thing is, I can understand the "normals" attitude regarding taking photographs of railroad operations. So I'm advising discretion when we do it. As I mentioned before, you won't see newspapers heralding the plight of "...a man who was noted taking photographs of subway tracks and station platforms and was questioned by the police on the scene..." That doesn't mean it's not subject to further examination and discussion.
Can you print your visual record 30 years from now?
Use your head in the pursuit of your personal recreational activities and you'll do fine. Stop with the harrangement of the police o.t.j., you are not doing us any favors with this.
Are you serious? These cops are making up their own rules even though there is no definite ban on photography and they keep using 9/11 as an excuse. Don't you think that if 9/11 were the real purpose for this proposed ban that it would have been implemented the day after, or perhaps even the same day? Think about it, there's more to it than what we may see right now. All these agencies and officials are trying to do is bully/harass to the point of abolishing this recreational activity and give the public a false assumption that transit fans are terrorists and such.
This is exactly what a permit system represents: runaround and other bullsh*t. If you don't think it's true I have a bridge to sell you.
Moral: Whatever is not explicitly forbidden by written code of law is allowed. And such written laws, especially those written with "security" or "safety" in mind, are to be viewed with the most extreme suspicion.
BTW, I will try to speak to someone at the ACLU and the New York Chapter, the NYCLU, will join with them as an aid to win this battle, and I will also try contacting industry publications and the Media.
This is the end of this chapter of my story.
LET us know how that goes. We are showing the agencies, cops, gov't officials, etc. that we will NOT take this lightly; not resorting to violence of course. With the recent incident at Times Sq, the security in that area, as well as GCT I say is going to be even tighter and I can imagine the harassment us transit fans and tourists would possibly face. And I notice that NJT is being a bitch about obtaining a permit, as you had described. You make a attempt to legally obtain a permit to avoid harassment and suspicion yet they railroad you and give you bullshit expainations. My conclusion is that they are delibarately reducing the # of given passes so that they can show that they are big and bad :-\.
Great post BTW.
I'm pretty sure that most law enforcement and transit employees don't want to tell people/could care less that they can't take their transit photos but then their jobs are on the line. But I agree its getting far worse than it should be.
SAS
But I would like to urge ALL OF US as a group to protect what's ours...ok, maybe just tell the "authorities" that we aren't doing anything wrong or committing any crime, so why should we suffer in the name of terrorism, security, and "safety"? I don't feel safe, with gestapo looking over my shoulder telling me what not to do...that's not safe, that's communism in the 1960s and Nazism in the 1930s...gimme a break
This ain't the United States of America, this is like the Federated Terrorized Republican States of George W Bush...
but anyway, we have to give it our all, to make sure our hobby doesn't get taken from us, and none of that due process stuff either...rofl
BUT,...
This isn't over.
Really now! NOTHING from the federal government speaks of a photo ban or a curtailment of freedoms anywhere that I can find.
In my opinion, it is the LOCAL PIGS and TA bosses with WET PANTS that are seizing on this as a way to limit photography for what murky end I cannot imagine, except maybe to prevent people from documenting their shortcomings and failures.
The only requirement from the Federal Level was to "improve security" and watch for "suspicious activity".
Your (well earned) invictive need only be aimed at the Bosses in NYC.
Elias
That's quite true ... I don't believe terrorism paranoia elsewhere in the country is anywhere near as bad as it is in New York.
I was in New York a few eekends ago and from what I can tell it is far worse up here in Boston.
But still, we need to do something about it...and fast, before other things happen which we don't want...
SAS
POSTED: 2:52 pm EDT July 11, 2004
UPDATED: 9:29 pm EDT July 11, 2004
RALEIGH, N.C. -- According to a new study, the idea of a commuter train service connecting Raleigh to Wilson and Goldsboro is feasible and affordable.
The study, commissioned by officials in the Wake County town of Knightdale, concludes that building the 100-mile rail system would cost about $125 million. That is less than the typical cost of eight miles of urban freeway.
Officials in other towns along the route see the proposed rail system called "Eastrans" as a way to promote economic development and make their communities more attractive to commuters.
The proposal is for a two-corridor, U-shaped route running east from Raleigh on existing tracks.
A northern leg would reach Wilson, with stops in Knightdale, Wendell and Zebulon. A southern leg would reach Goldsboro, with stops in Clayton and Selma.
In Raleigh, it would link to two stations serving a planned Triangle transit rail line.
Copyright 2004 by The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
-------
No, I dont' know why they say "high-speed" unless their highways are worse than mine and average way under 15mph. And I wish tis was running now to clinch my decision process on trying out Amtrak for the first time and going to NC.
The southern route would be the route currently followed by the Piedmont and Carolinian as far as Selma. There might be more demand for that service but I can't imagine anyone commuting from Goldsboro to Raleigh; indeed, it might be more likely that someone in Clayton or Selma would be going the other way.
Pipe dreams.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
please tell me what you think about my idea
-Alexander-
-Chris
I would like to see the J/Z extended as well to 168th Street(just like the el) and beyond.
Mind you, there's nothing that precludes the MTA from adjusting their fares to lower prices for Zone 3 customers, or keep the fares as is and provide a free LIRR to bus transfer in Queens. Hopefully, the results from City Ticket prove that there is a market for NYC commuter rail access. In-city usage of commuter rail seems to work in Philadelphia for SEPTA and its Regional Rail service (or am I incorrect about that?).
The LIRR and Metro-North can do a better job of serving in-city riders if they want to, or if the MTA wasn't so "protective" of the subways and buses.
6 line to Coop City
L line to Starrett City and possible to the Javits Center (Manhattan)
1/9 to Staten Island (via a tunnel from South Ferry)
I would alter a few things on that now...
What did you use to make it, James?
IND color groups will be purple (188, 197, FLB, 212), blue (Spfld/Brd, Winchester, Commonwealth) and green (LNP, 268).
wayne
Main Street
Parsons Boulevard
164th Street
172nd Street
Utopia Parkway - St. John's University
188th Street
Francis Lewis Boulevard
Bell Boulevard - Bayside
Springfield Boulevard
Little Neck Parkway
260th Street
Lakeville Road - City Line
That's pretty close to Hillside Avenue. I would branch the locals down Jewel and 73rd Avenues, to 230th Street.
Union Turnpike is actually pretty far north of Hillside Avenue and could easily generate new ridership. It runs through a lot of different commercial areas and directly adjacent to St. John's University.
Unless you tunneled under everything.
Sounds kinda like my Y Train proposal:
CG
CG
CG
There are three ways of reversing a train off the Running Lines:
a- Into a siding outside the running lines.
b-Into a siding between the running lines.
c- Into a siding between the running lines with exits at both ends
and so can be used for both directions.
Do these have special names?
London referred to all three as 'Traffic Sidings' - where the train remained under the control of the Signalman and was not 'Lost' in a yard.
There are three ways of reversing a train off the Running Lines:
a- Into a siding outside the running lines.
b-Into a siding between the running lines.
c- Into a siding between the running lines with exits at both ends
and so can be used for both directions.
Do these have special names?
By WMATA nomenclature C would be the answer. Here is the typical layout of a pocket track on WMATA.
WMATA does not have either A or B along the main line of the system WMATA does have a third track similar to C in the tail track beyond one of the existing terminal stations Springfield-Franconia (J03).
WMATA pocket tracks are a minimum of 620’ (188.97) long to accommodate an eight car train. The pocket track at West Falls Church (K06) is roughly twice as long as the typical length pocket track. Two station have the pocket tracks located between platforms; West Falls Church (K06) and National Airport (C10). WMATA has a total of seven pocket tracks around the system.
John
Washington learned from other Systems (despite having pieces of ceiling falling down) and planned accordingly.
These 'double ended sidings' can be used to reverse trains in either direction and also to switch trains to the other line which are , I understand, signalled for both directions for use during emergencies or track work.
Yes, all of WMATA main line tracks, yard leads, and route connector tracks are bidirectionally signaled. However only main line and pocket tracks are equipped for automatic operation of trains.
John
I'm sure I am among a number of others who also hold that status. Good luck to anyone else trying to reach this feat, it is quite satisfying once you do it and fun to be able to tell others you did it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
A Galapagos tortoise that hatches today might live long enough to see the SAS. No, probably not.
Everything was fine through our departure from Philadelphia. Just after passing the SEPTA Crum Lynne R2 Station, we came to a stop for about 20-25 minutes, during which a garbled announcement was made about why we were stopped, but I really couldn't understand it. After the problem was resolved, we made our way to Wilmington. The conductor came on again and annouced that we would be continuing on at reduced speed due to the difficulty being fixed somewhat, but obviously not enough to allow us to run at full speed. At Wilmington, our stop was longer than usual so they could do more inspections, but the conductors did not indicate that our train would be delayed any more than it already was, closed up, and did not announce anything about potential delays. Once we were underway from Wilmington, the conductor announced we would be continuing at reduced speed the rest of the way and would arrive in Washington in no less than 90 minutes from our Wilmington departure, but the announcement was in such a way that our travel time could have been more than that. It was now 10:17, we were due in Washington in 30 minutes, but they were now predicting an arrival time around 11:50. When the conductor came though to get tickets, I asked him about the Regional that was boarding at Penn at the same time as our train and he told me it had difficulties of its own and as a result, was instructed not to offload us. I accepted this answer but naturally, that Regional passed us before we even reached Newark, DE. Needless to say, I was not very happy about this, nor was anyone else. The conductor later told me they fixed the other train and he requested it be held at Baltimore for us, but that request was denied (and I support Amtrak management on this decision, too many people would be inconvinienced if the Regional waited for us in Balitmore and there would have been no savings for the Express passengers). We eventually arrived in Washington at about 11:56 AM, about 70 minutes after our scheduled arrival. The Regional arrived about 30 minutes before we did.
This afternoon, I called up 800-USA-RAIL, and spoke with customer service. I suggested that it be Amtrak policy to update passengers on all trains (but at least on the Premium services) as to the status of other trains and that Amtrak management should not make those decisions for us. Depending on the nature of the Regional's difficulties, I may have been willing to gamble on the Regional arriving before the Express and simply only requested a refund equal to the difference between the Express and Regional. Instead, I believe I am now getting a full refund. Amtrak loses more money this way and based on conversations with my fellow passengers, Amtrak will be giving a number of refunds to people. I also suggested that Amtrak's automated phone system (aka Julie) not require people to go to a ticketing agent to request a connection to customer service. Luckily, there was no wait for the ticketing agent, but I wouldn't have been too happy if I had to wait 5, 10, or 15 minutes for a ticketing agent who would only connect me to customer service.
Also, this is an example of how Amtrak can't screw up if they want to win passengers from the air shuttles.
Today's trip by train:
I wake up by 6:45 AM
Eat breakfast (not required because I can buy it on the train)
Leave at 7:15, take subway to Penn Station
Arrive Penn Station at 7:45, buy NYT and board train
Train leaves at 8:00
Train scheduled to arrive in WAS at 10:47
Take Metro to Friendship Hts, arrive about 11:15
Someone comes to pick me up at FH, I arrive home no later than 11:30
Total trip time is just over 4 hours
By plane:
Wake up by 6:30 AM
Eat breakfast (eating at the airport/on board plane is not pleasant, therefore I have to have time for this)
Leave by 7:30 by taxi, earlier if I take M60 (and earlier times adjusted accordingly)
Need to arrive at LGA by 8 at latest for security/check in/other stuff
Plane leaves at 9, need to be on board by 8:50
Plane arrives at DCA at about 10
Proceed to baggage claim/use restroom in terminal because of no-potty rule on the plane
Proceed to Metro station
Take Metro home, requires transfer at Gallery Place, arrive at FH by 11
Arrive home by 11:15
While the plane in this ideal situation gets me home 15 minutes earlier, I also have to get up earlier and the amount of time available to me to read or not be moving from place to place en route is far greater, and therefore, I prefer it. But if Amtrak is going to be about as vocal as an airline about a delay (which isn't very), on a clear, sunny day like today, I might as well fly if I put my railfan interests aside. I barely made it to where I needed to be by 1 PM. I actually arrived there 10 minutes on my own with only 15 minutes at home before going. Had I wanted to be on time, I would have had no time at home which would be far from ideal.
More stuff from my trip to come...
Like they have the resources to draw upon to prevent screwups. It wasn't Amtrak that was bailed out in 2001 but the airlines, you know.
Your pal,
Fred
Not in New Haven.
Your pal,
Fred
Your pal,
Jersey
They started throwing the shrouds at speed, so Amtrak removed all of them.
http://www.curbed.com/archives/2004/07/16/high_line_dystopia.php#more
but the thing looks like it could support subway trains. Why not make it a southern extension of whatever they'll do with the #7?
www.forgotten-ny.com
It would be a great idea as a train line again. And it's not like the people would be unused to an elevated structure in the neighborhood. And they say it's 30 feet wide.
P.S. I know a number of posters are going to comment about how the reporter doesn't know the difference between a motorman and a conductor yet that is such a minor point to the story. The real point is someone actually got run over by 4 cars and was treated and released the same day!!!
It said he had a history of seizures.
If you are VERY athletic you might try climbing, and if you are near the leaving end of the station you might try running, but otherwise I recommend the trench. Two people in the trend have survived recently, one on an elevated where I wouldn't have thought it possible (not as low as a subway trench). The most recent people who tried to get up got run over.
The article said that the man had a history of seizures. I had thought that repeated seizures = epilepsy. Now I have found that it is not necessarily the case.
David
Robert
Unfortunately, commonfolk don't know the difference between a conductor and a train operator, or a subway and a subway train. Take a look around! There is an ad for a storage company on a few trains (most recently, I saw it on the Q). It said something along the lines of "My apartment is as wide as this subway, so I have to use storage" and it showed a picture of a crowded train. Damn, I'd love to see an apartment as wide as the subway, wouldn't you? All I know is, she better have maids, because there's no way in hell I'd be able to clean a place that big :)
Unfortunately, I don't think it matters to these newspapers. And that's what turns me off from journalism sometimes. They just don't care.
Same with the STATION Booth. Some people still refer to them as TOKEN Booths. After 50 years of token use, it's hard to think of them otherwise. Before tokens they were known as CHANGE Booths.
I've never seen the railroad clerk term used in the paper before. But is a railroad clerk=station agent? In that case, it's a different story; instead of being blantantly wrong (ex. conductor=train operator, subway=subway train), they're just using outdated terms for the same thing they are describing. Still sucky editing, though.
I haven't been to Fordham in 25 odd years. If you say there is a mosaic there I'll take your word.
>A conductor is the person who opens on closes the doors on a subway train.
>A Train operator (Once motorman) actually operates a train.
>A Station Agent (Once Subway Clerk) works inside the booth making change, selling fare media (Metrocards), giving directions and generally is there to call for assistance if something happens.
The title Railroad Clerk is an outdated title. It has been outdated for 7-9 years now. The correct title is now Station Agent.
The substituation of titles will probably continue for several more years. But it's dumb for a reporter to confuse what a conductor and a train operator does. And just as dumb for the editor to miss that when editing and proofreading a story. It might be a minor point. But it suggests that maybe something else in the story is wrong.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
Thanks in advance.
Although looking at old pics of the (A) line on this very site, there signs WERE in caps.
Front of car.
Interior view.
Side view.
1979 subway map.
IND Rollsigns.
Interior view.
-Chris
-Chris
The photos seem to indicate that they've at least hired the "autopilot" from the film "Airplane" so chances are he's holding onto something in that cab. (grin)
Jimmy
wayne
wayne
wayne
wayne
Although I would imagine that those seats must be uncomfortable to dine on.
I used to go there when I was young. I remember that train car, it was sooooo cool to eat in there.
There was a K-Mart in the same outdoor mall, is that still there?
When this was discussed a couple of years ago (sans pictures, though - thanks Chris!) someone indicated that it was strictly half a car.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
til next time
That is because it is an R6.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
wayne
wayne
Once I visit to SI these days, I'll be sure to make a stop there.
Perhaps a Sub-Talk / Bus-Talk field trip there one day if it is partially accesibly by SIRT ?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
They are very expensive even for a "Kosher Deli" but they were the only Kosher place on the island back in the 80's when I lived there.
It is not a FULL car, about 3/4's of the car is there.
But if you eat there, you can walk over to the Yukon Bus depot which is right behind the Kmart >G<.
Just imagine: You place your order at an oak token booth, and the path between the dining room (the subway car) and the order counter (the booth) is decorated in Vickers-style mosaic tiles.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
I also love Katz's Deli. I'm not Jewish, but I immediately knew the place couldn't be all that "Kosher", since I saw the cheesburgers on the menu. You can't beat the pastrami on rye there though - and the kasha knishes are unbelievable!! I always try to stop there when I am in that area.
As for Ben's Deli. There are a bunch of them on LI, and the food is great too, but also it's certainly not "kosher". FOor me it doesn't matter though.
I found the Ben's (now Zan's) in Lake Grove to be reasonably upscale in appearance, not dinerish at all. It's in a strip mall, to be sure, but on the other hand is next door to a Trader Joe's, and you can't get much more upscale than that :)
Appearance wasn't the only upscale thing. Lunch for three set me back just shy of $100 with the tip, no alcohol. A much better deal in the area is the Curry Club near the Stony Brook LIRR station, where there is an absolutely terrific lunch buffet for ten bucks per person (a couple of old train cars are attached to the building, by the way). There's also Hoshi Sushi on Stony Brook Road, where we go often enough to have our own sets of chopsticks :)
Oh and the one I goto in Bayside is too in a strip mall, I guess they have a thing for malls with "strip" in the name. :P
It has nothing (or very little) to do with glatt. Glatt is a particular (high) standard of kashrut for meat that Sephardim consider the basic requirement but Ashkenazim do not (although some Ashkenazim have adopted glatt as a custom). It just so happens that nearly all reliably kosher meat available in the U.S. is glatt, but many Ashkenazim who currently eat glatt out of necessity would gladly eat non-glatt if it were available. Glatt has nothing to do with whether a restaurant is open on the Sabbath -- in general (and this is a simplification), observant Jews do not eat any food that was cooked on the Sabbath. But that applies to dairy restaurants as well as meat restaurants, and there's no such thing as glatt dairy.
The one in Lake Grove, near the Smith Haven Mall, is now called "Zan's Deli," the result of some sort of dispute among family members, although it seems unchanged otherwise. The family and I went there for lunch about six months ago, before the name change, and we all were most pleased. I had tongue with raisin sauce, which sounds bizaare but was terrific.
By Car:MapQuest Directions
By Transit: Take the s44/s55/s56/s61/91LTD/s79/x17/x31
Also, take the SIR to/from the Eltingville Station and take the s59/s79 busses.
-Chris
i'm looking at an old usgs map and the track layout seems to suggest this, but i'm not sure??
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/212928p-183362c.html
Bus operators and taxi drivers have to deal one-on-one with passengers/customers, not to mention workers in just about any sort of retail business. Asking the same of transit workers is not out of line. Yes, there will be some risks, as this incident proves, but that's unavoidable.
Perhaps they need to change the title, and recruit a different type of employee, one more like a security guard, if they want someone moving around the station to keep people safe. That would be in cases in which the only station employee in a station is outside the booth. Higher pay and different requirements would be appropriate.
As it is, I think they are only implementing it in large stations with many station agents, with some outside the booth.
Having station agents remain locked in armored booths even after they're no longer handling money would create a very bad image. It would be equivalent to saying that stations are dangerous places, too dangerous for MTA employees to be walking around unprotected. Where does that leave passengers?
Yes he does, since even criminals have enough sense not to bother committing a crime that has no chance whatsoever of paying off.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?country=US&countryid=US&addtohistory=&searchtab=address&searchtype=address&address=115+Laurel+Hill+Rd&city=Northport&state=ny&zipcode=&search=++Search++
How does the map show/change the abandonment status? I know the map information is online, but it can be out of date, especially for rail rights of way.
wayne
Where on the ROW is it built on? What is it? A house, or one of those lumber companies out there?
That is why there is an S curve just north of 25A on Church Street.
The tracks and RR crossing sign that were on Elwood Road south of 25A were taken out in the 80's and paved over. If you go north on Elwood Road you will notice that the slope of the street levels off from down hill to level for a few feet. That is where the tracks crossed.
The tracks then proceeded northwest over 25A. On the south side of 25A there is now a self-storage place on top of where the track went. 25A has been repaved several times so there is no evidence of the track crossing it anymore. The part from the PJ branch to Elwood road is not readily accesible and probably has houses built on or near it.
1. The spur goes into Northport
2. The current Northport station is really in East Northport, renamed Northport when the spur was abandonned
3. Both stations are east of Greenlawn
When LIRR finally reached Greenlawn, they continued to build. The eventually got into Northport via a track that is now simply the abandonned Northport spur. This was abandonned after LIRR decided to build to Port Jeff through East Northport, instead of simply extending the Northport spur. A while after that, they abandonned the Northport spur and renamed the East Northport station to Northport.
I was looking at the Hudson Line Schedule today and I saw something intresting...
For example MNRR Train 864 departs Poughkeepsie at 1:33pm and arrives New Hamburg at 1:43pm. Now that is a travel time of ten minutes exactly...Now on the other hand... MNRR Train 833 Departs New Hamburg at 3:26pm and Arrives Poughkeepsie at 3:45pm now that is a travel time of 19 minutes... Now why does it take Metro-North 9 Extra minutes to run train north then south...I assure you it can't be Amtrak becuase they don't run every hour up there and it happens to all trains... Also they have two tracks up there so sombody help me...
Dylan
DYLAN
LIRR seems to be the only area commuter railroad that doesn't engage in this practice extensively.
DYLAN
Dylan
As someone who does airline schedules for a living, you don't what you're talking about.
First off, all airline schedules are developed independently for each leg. There's no concept of padding the time to the final station. We don't even know how planning will combine legs to create flights when we develop our schedules.
Second, since on most airlines, crews are paid the greater of scheduled and actual time, there's a very strong financial disincentive to padding schedules.
Third, since it takes so long to turn a plane at a station, any "padding" for delay recovery is put in turn time, not scheduled flight time.
Now if by chance you were referring to situations where the time in one direction is longer than the other, there are a number of reasons for that but the main one is wind. Airplanes fly a fairly constant speed through a moving air mass. So it does take about an hour longer to go from New York to San Francisco than from San Francisco to New York.
Other factors affecting schedule times are airport and airspace congestion which can vary at different times of day and of course from airport to airport. A flight departing JFK at 6pm might have its flight time anticipating 30 minutes of taxi-out time. Move that to 10am and the taxi-out allowance becomes about 15 minutes. A flight departing Albany at any time of day is probably allowed no more than 6 or 7 minutes. OTOH, taxi-in times are fairly constant from airport to airport and throughout the day (although of course there are some exceptions).
I think I'm more of a schedule geek than I am a true train foamer.
CG
It actually makes sense - trains are not allowed to leave any station before the booked time, so you schedule the intermediate stops earlier than you think you can achieve. Thus the train seems to be running late en route. If you didn't do that, the train would perhaps have to wait for scheduled departure time several times in its journey. For example, my regular train to work in the mornings is scheduled ten minutes start-to-start for the Bedford-Wellingborough leg, which is fifteen miles. This is unachievable, so it always leaves Wellingborough "late". But is usually gets into Leicester on time, because there is recovery time in the schedule in the leg between Market Harborough and Leicester.
Of course, if there have been no delays en route, a train then gets into its final destination early - provided there is a vacant platform available for it then!
By ELIZABETH M. GILLESPIE, Associated Press Writer
SEATTLE - Ian Spiers had just hours to finish an assignment for his photography class. He was taking shots of a railroad bridge near the Ballard Locks when an officer with a German shepherd approached him, asked him what he was doing and requested some ID.
Later, he was questioned and photographed by a Homeland Security agent.
It was the second time in less than two months that Spiers had been questioned about taking pictures of a landmark that attracts hundreds of tourists a day, many of whom snap photos of the ships passing between Lake Union and Elliott Bay.
A growing number of photographers around the country have been similarly rousted in recent years as they've tried to take pictures of federal buildings and other major public works, said Donald Winslow, editor of the National Press Photographers Association's magazine.
"We've seen the constant erosion of our civil liberties amid this cry for homeland security by doing things that have an appearance of making us safe, but in reality it's a sham," Winslow said. "No one showed up at the World Trade Center and took photographs from nine different angles before they flew planes into it."
The morning of May 26, Spiers explained he was a photography student at a community college, showed a copy of his assignment, then asked the officer if he was legally obligated to show his ID.
The officer said no and walked away. But soon after, several armed officers approached him, including three from the Seattle Police Department and three from the federal Homeland Security Department.
"I was trying to be calm, but the truth was I was scared out of my mind," Spiers said.
This time, Spiers said, a Seattle police officer told him he had no choice but to show his ID. A Homeland Security agent who flashed his badge told him he had broken a law by taking pictures of a federal facility.
"We've never seen such a law," said Doug Honig, a spokesman for the American Civil Liberties Union (news - web sites) in Seattle.
Spiers said he complied, spent half an hour answering questions and let a Homeland Security agent photograph him — after being told he had no choice.
The ACLU has written the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, which owns and runs the locks, asking for the agency's assurance that Spiers will not be arrested if he returns there.
Corps spokeswoman Patricia Graesser said her agency had no involvement in the incident and questioned an order Spiers said a homeland security agent gave him — that he could not return to the locks with his camera without getting permission in advance.
"Everyone — all members of the public — are welcome on the locks property, and photographs are allowed, and there's no need to get prior permission," she said.
Seattle police spokesman Sean Whitcomb said the department has a duty to respond to reports of suspicious activity.
Calls to the Homeland Security Department were not immediately returned.
In an interview with The Associated Press, Spiers kept his distance from the spot where he was questioned, and wore a button on his camera bag that said: "Annoying but harmless photography student. Do not bend." He made it in early April, after two police officers showed up at his door, saying they were responding to a report about a suspicious man taking pictures at the locks.
Spiers said he'd like to hear one of the officers who questioned him say if they hassled him because his mocha-colored skin and short black hair made him look like a terrorist.
"I'm trying to figure out how not to attract attention," said Spiers, 36. "So far the only thing I can think of is that I can never ever pick up a camera."
In early June, about 100 photographers crowded onto New York City subway trains and snapped pictures of each other in protest of the Metropolitan Transportation Authority (news - web sites)'s proposed ban on photography in subways and other public transit.
And Brian Fitzgerald, the chief photographer at the Yakima Herald-Republic, said a uniformed security officer tried to prevent him from taking a picture of an immigration office, citing a "law," then calling it a "directive" that gave the officer the right to confiscate any film with pictures of a federal facility.
An officer in charge eventually let him take his photos, and he's since been told there's no reason he can't take them.
"It's frustrating mostly," Fitzgerald said. "I'm not outraged because I didn't get to the point where I didn't get my photos. It just reminds me again how much disinformation there is, even in these agencies that are supposed to know."
___
By ELIZABETH M. GILLESPIE, Associated Press Writer
SEATTLE - Ian Spiers had just hours to finish an assignment for his photography class. He was taking shots of a railroad bridge near the Ballard Locks when an officer with a German shepherd approached him, asked him what he was doing and requested some ID.
AP Photo
Later, he was questioned and photographed by a Homeland Security agent.
It was the second time in less than two months that Spiers had been questioned about taking pictures of a landmark that attracts hundreds of tourists a day, many of whom snap photos of the ships passing between Lake Union and Elliott Bay.
A growing number of photographers around the country have been similarly rousted in recent years as they've tried to take pictures of federal buildings and other major public works, said Donald Winslow, editor of the National Press Photographers Association's magazine.
"We've seen the constant erosion of our civil liberties amid this cry for homeland security by doing things that have an appearance of making us safe, but in reality it's a sham," Winslow said. "No one showed up at the World Trade Center and took photographs from nine different angles before they flew planes into it."
The morning of May 26, Spiers explained he was a photography student at a community college, showed a copy of his assignment, then asked the officer if he was legally obligated to show his ID.
The officer said no and walked away. But soon after, several armed officers approached him, including three from the Seattle Police Department and three from the federal Homeland Security Department.
"I was trying to be calm, but the truth was I was scared out of my mind," Spiers said.
This time, Spiers said, a Seattle police officer told him he had no choice but to show his ID. A Homeland Security agent who flashed his badge told him he had broken a law by taking pictures of a federal facility.
"We've never seen such a law," said Doug Honig, a spokesman for the American Civil Liberties Union (news - web sites) in Seattle.
Spiers said he complied, spent half an hour answering questions and let a Homeland Security agent photograph him — after being told he had no choice.
The ACLU has written the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, which owns and runs the locks, asking for the agency's assurance that Spiers will not be arrested if he returns there.
Corps spokeswoman Patricia Graesser said her agency had no involvement in the incident and questioned an order Spiers said a homeland security agent gave him — that he could not return to the locks with his camera without getting permission in advance.
"Everyone — all members of the public — are welcome on the locks property, and photographs are allowed, and there's no need to get prior permission," she said.
Seattle police spokesman Sean Whitcomb said the department has a duty to respond to reports of suspicious activity.
Calls to the Homeland Security Department were not immediately returned.
In an interview with The Associated Press, Spiers kept his distance from the spot where he was questioned, and wore a button on his camera bag that said: "Annoying but harmless photography student. Do not bend." He made it in early April, after two police officers showed up at his door, saying they were responding to a report about a suspicious man taking pictures at the locks.
Spiers said he'd like to hear one of the officers who questioned him say if they hassled him because his mocha-colored skin and short black hair made him look like a terrorist.
"I'm trying to figure out how not to attract attention," said Spiers, 36. "So far the only thing I can think of is that I can never ever pick up a camera."
In early June, about 100 photographers crowded onto New York City subway trains and snapped pictures of each other in protest of the Metropolitan Transportation Authority (news - web sites)'s proposed ban on photography in subways and other public transit.
And Brian Fitzgerald, the chief photographer at the Yakima Herald-Republic, said a uniformed security officer tried to prevent him from taking a picture of an immigration office, citing a "law," then calling it a "directive" that gave the officer the right to confiscate any film with pictures of a federal facility.
An officer in charge eventually let him take his photos, and he's since been told there's no reason he can't take them.
"It's frustrating mostly," Fitzgerald said. "I'm not outraged because I didn't get to the point where I didn't get my photos. It just reminds me again how much disinformation there is, even in these agencies that are supposed to know."
i've been in hibernation too long. Time to start planning another for september...
But that, evidently, didn't happen. So is this real, or melodrama written to sell papers? It's hard to tell.
Can you give me an example of some chemicals that would work that would escape screening if brought on in sufficient quantities to cause harm to an aircraft? Remember: no nitrates. That’s what the rub-around-the suitcase test is looking for.
However, it’s still a lot of white powder that’s going to be needed to do any serious damage, and you’re not going to be able to get on with anything nitrate. The interesting explosives, like C4, have also amine/amide groups which are detected by the bag-rub-down methods.
I stand by my assertion that this threat is in the very unlikely category.
Take an ordinary BIC or Zippo-type cigarette lighter (you're allowed to carry two onto the plane), and a small can of hairspray (any brand that comes in a metal can with the little aerosol push-button on top).
WARNING :::: AT YOUR OWN RISK ::::::: YOU'VE BEEN WARNED ::::::
Hold the spray can, oh, about 10 inches behind the lighter, and spray into the lighter's flame.
FLAMETHROWER!!!!
WARNING :::: AT YOUR OWN RISK ::::::: YOU'VE BEEN WARNED ::::::
Bring the spray can closer as necessary (not too close, or else you blow out the flame, or far worse, the flame jumps back toward, and possibly into, the aerosol can). Depending on the velocity of the spray and the size of the lighter flame, you have a range of a few feet. It's certainly a lot more dangerous (and scary) than virtually any of the pointy metal objects on the TSA's forbidden list.
WARNING :::: AT YOUR OWN RISK ::::::: YOU'VE BEEN WARNED ::::::
If you want things to go up faster, take a bottle of any strong liquor (vodka, whiskey, etc) and douse it on the surface you're looking to light up. Even better, a squirt bottle of lighter fluid (Ronsonol, etc) or gasoline can be disguised as something less incendiary (water, iced tea, applejuice, lemonade). Let's just say that upholstered surfaces in enclosed areas with rapid ventilation systems are extremely vulnerable to just such an attack. Such bottles of flammable liquid can also be fashioned into functional Molotov cocktails with the addition of a small piece of cloth as a wick.
WARNING :::: AT YOUR OWN RISK ::::::: YOU'VE BEEN WARNED ::::::
I will hold no responsibility for dumbasses who set themselves or their home on fire.
WARNING :::: AT YOUR OWN RISK ::::::: YOU'VE BEEN WARNED ::::::
If you're looking for a nice noxious chemical combo, household bleach and ammonia pack quite an interesting punch. That's why you NEVER use them together when cleaning. You can make tablets of potassium or sodium cyanide (which can be disguised, for example, as a bottle of Alka-Seltzers). Dropped into an acidic solution (which can also be disguised), you have the same chemical combination used in the gas chamber to execute death row inmates.
WARNING :::: AT YOUR OWN RISK ::::::: YOU'VE BEEN WARNED ::::::
You can convert a camera's flash mechanism into a marginally effective stun gun - this was discussed to death on slashdot a while back.
WARNING :::: AT YOUR OWN RISK ::::::: YOU'VE BEEN WARNED ::::::
There are an infinite panoply of small, innocuous objects that can be converted into zipguns - basically, insert a round of ammunition (typically .22 or occasionally 9mm, though .45 pistol ammo and .30 rifle rounds can be used as well for increased power) into a cylindrical metal barrel, pull back a springloaded pin and release, and the gun fires (the primer is just a stepped-up version of a toy cap, requiring only a sharp mechanical blow to ignite.) Somewhat larger models (about 0.7 inch diameter) can use a 12-gauge shotgun shell, spewing high-velocity pellets all over the place. The main problem is trying to find a barrel substantial enough to not explode (causing serious injury to the shooter) when the round is fired, particularly for the larger rounds.
WARNING :::: AT YOUR OWN RISK ::::::: YOU'VE BEEN WARNED ::::::
Mini-Mag flashlights are physically almost identical to kubotans (except for the lightbulb at the opposide end), and there are entire martial arts schools built around using kubotans as fighting devices - they can be used to stabilize a closed fist for punching, swung on lanyards, or thrust endwise to strengthen a swinging or chopping blow to the neck or head, for example). $10 Mini-Mags are made of aluminum, but even $2 plastic knockoffs are quite effective. For this reason, they're on the TSA banned list.
WARNING :::: AT YOUR OWN RISK ::::::: YOU'VE BEEN WARNED ::::::
You can kill someone with a soda can - I'll let you figure out the details. You can make small devices which explode on impact after being thrown - remember that the starters on strike-anywhere matches ignite when dragged against any rough surface. Try lighting up a small piece of cotton impregnated with Vasoline. Hypodermic injectors (ok to carry onto a plane with doctor's prescription) can be filled with a number of deadly substances - made much more deadly when injected into the bloodstream.
WARNING :::: AT YOUR OWN RISK ::::::: YOU'VE BEEN WARNED ::::::
And you can buy nonmetallic knives Rambo would be proud to own, on the internet for less than $25. Yes, they have legitimate uses - in areas of high magnetic field, in environments that may be exposed to strong electromagnetic fields, for use on objects that may be connected to high voltage sources, in the disposal of bombs and sensitive electronic equipment that may be sent on the "fritz" by the proximity of a metal blade, for example. And yes, they're legal (as far as I know) in all states except California (where they must have a metal retaining ring so they will set off metal detectors), subject only to to the same regulations that would pertain to a comparable metallic blade. They're sold under the name "CIA Letter Opener."
WARNING :::: AT YOUR OWN RISK ::::::: YOU'VE BEEN WARNED ::::::
The scary part is, everything I just mentioned is pretty much common knowledge somewhere or another (and there's plenty more that I haven't shared, and undoubtedly plenty more that I simply don't know about). bin Laden's guys know all of this as well. It just illustrates to me how pointless most of these "screening" security measures are - other than to eliminate large weapons (e.g. axes, hatchets, chainsaws and teh like), illegal firearms, and large-scale explosive devices, pretty much any innocuous object can be readily engineered into a killing device more effective than many objects that are explicitly prohibited. And innocuous individual objects (for which the carriers would have legitimate reasons for possession, or else can be easily concealed or disguised to evade detection by all but the absolutely most invasive screening procedures) can be combined to yield devastatingly effective weapons.
And not a new idea, either; I remember people using these makeshift flamethrowers when I was in college, many moons ago. The smell that they put out is nearly asphyxiating.
Mini-Mag flashlights are physically almost identical to kubotans (except for the lightbulb at the opposide end), and there are entire martial arts schools built around using kubotans as fighting devices - they can be used to stabilize a closed fist for punching, swung on lanyards, or thrust endwise to strengthen a swinging or chopping blow to the neck or head, for example). $10 Mini-Mags are made of aluminum, but even $2 plastic knockoffs are quite effective. For this reason, they're on the TSA banned list.
A tightly rolled magazine can be a very dangerous weapon, for example if jammed end-first into someone's face or neck. And a bar of soap in a sock makes a highly effective black jack.
Reminds me of Full Metal Jacket...
A roll of quarters is great to stabilize a fist or to hold in the hand with the end protruding from between the thumb and forefinger, to be swung hook-style against the side of someone's head - if proper contact is made, one blow can be fatal (or at least enough to cause immediate unconsciousness). I actually brought one on a plane once - got through post-9/11 security just ok (though they did examine it and thought about it for a few seconds before waving me along), and it's probably a more effective weapon than a small non-locking pocketknife.
Just a little while ago I was experimenting with an empty Coke can. I made a saw-like blade by twisting and tearing it (bare hands, no tools, took less than 30 seconds). Then to test it out I lightly drew my finger across the edge and gave myself a nice nasty paper cut. Now, increase the pressure and bring it across someone's face or throat and you'll put Mohammad Atta's box cutter to shame...
Bending a can like that is a noisy process, so it would be difficult to accomplish on an airplane or other secure location.
Of course the more likely explanation is that they were a group of musicians, who maybe had a couple drinks, and all were buddy-buddy with each other. It's coincidental that they happened to be of Middle Eastern descent (and if they weren't, all of the behavior described would certainly not arouse that kind of suspicion, even if it evoked odd stares).
No one seems to know what's the deal with it, exagerrated, real, whatever. What's actually scary about the story is that it's too perfect on how it's all planned out to the detail, and you'd say that's way too perfect on how it's played out. Then you think isn't that the point? Shoulnd't these guys have it all planned out that perfect? They ususally do dont' they?
I have no firm opinion either way it's so tricky on this one. But I'm curious.
The officer said no and walked away."
The office was incorrect. I believe the supreme court recently ruled that a person does not have the right to refuse to identify themself to a police officer.
The Supreme Court ruled that such a requirement is not unconstitutional. Not all states have such a requirement.
I believe the SCOTUS case was concerned primarily with Terry stops - cases where the officer has probable cause to believe that a crime has been committed and is attempting to ascertain the identity of an individual they're speaking to.
Of course the officer doesn't pay you the courtesy of telling you he's executing a Terry stop, or whether he's just fishing for information.
i've been in hibernation too long. Time to start planning another for september...
They are known as Detonators in other places and were carried by Train Crews mainly but also Track Workers and to draw attention to Caution Signals during 'fog and falling snow'
But that, evidently, didn't happen. So is this real, or melodrama written to sell papers? It's hard to tell.
Can you give me an example of some chemicals that would work that would escape screening if brought on in sufficient quantities to cause harm to an aircraft? Remember: no nitrates. That’s what the rub-around-the suitcase test is looking for.
However, it’s still a lot of white powder that’s going to be needed to do any serious damage, and you’re not going to be able to get on with anything nitrate. The interesting explosives, like C4, have also amine/amide groups which are detected by the bag-rub-down methods.
I stand by my assertion that this threat is in the very unlikely category.
Take an ordinary BIC or Zippo-type cigarette lighter (you're allowed to carry two onto the plane), and a small can of hairspray (any brand that comes in a metal can with the little aerosol push-button on top).
WARNING :::: AT YOUR OWN RISK ::::::: YOU'VE BEEN WARNED ::::::
Hold the spray can, oh, about 10 inches behind the lighter, and spray into the lighter's flame.
FLAMETHROWER!!!!
WARNING :::: AT YOUR OWN RISK ::::::: YOU'VE BEEN WARNED ::::::
Bring the spray can closer as necessary (not too close, or else you blow out the flame, or far worse, the flame jumps back toward, and possibly into, the aerosol can). Depending on the velocity of the spray and the size of the lighter flame, you have a range of a few feet. It's certainly a lot more dangerous (and scary) than virtually any of the pointy metal objects on the TSA's forbidden list.
WARNING :::: AT YOUR OWN RISK ::::::: YOU'VE BEEN WARNED ::::::
If you want things to go up faster, take a bottle of any strong liquor (vodka, whiskey, etc) and douse it on the surface you're looking to light up. Even better, a squirt bottle of lighter fluid (Ronsonol, etc) or gasoline can be disguised as something less incendiary (water, iced tea, applejuice, lemonade). Let's just say that upholstered surfaces in enclosed areas with rapid ventilation systems are extremely vulnerable to just such an attack. Such bottles of flammable liquid can also be fashioned into functional Molotov cocktails with the addition of a small piece of cloth as a wick.
WARNING :::: AT YOUR OWN RISK ::::::: YOU'VE BEEN WARNED ::::::
I will hold no responsibility for dumbasses who set themselves or their home on fire.
WARNING :::: AT YOUR OWN RISK ::::::: YOU'VE BEEN WARNED ::::::
If you're looking for a nice noxious chemical combo, household bleach and ammonia pack quite an interesting punch. That's why you NEVER use them together when cleaning. You can make tablets of potassium or sodium cyanide (which can be disguised, for example, as a bottle of Alka-Seltzers). Dropped into an acidic solution (which can also be disguised), you have the same chemical combination used in the gas chamber to execute death row inmates.
WARNING :::: AT YOUR OWN RISK ::::::: YOU'VE BEEN WARNED ::::::
You can convert a camera's flash mechanism into a marginally effective stun gun - this was discussed to death on slashdot a while back.
WARNING :::: AT YOUR OWN RISK ::::::: YOU'VE BEEN WARNED ::::::
There are an infinite panoply of small, innocuous objects that can be converted into zipguns - basically, insert a round of ammunition (typically .22 or occasionally 9mm, though .45 pistol ammo and .30 rifle rounds can be used as well for increased power) into a cylindrical metal barrel, pull back a springloaded pin and release, and the gun fires (the primer is just a stepped-up version of a toy cap, requiring only a sharp mechanical blow to ignite.) Somewhat larger models (about 0.7 inch diameter) can use a 12-gauge shotgun shell, spewing high-velocity pellets all over the place. The main problem is trying to find a barrel substantial enough to not explode (causing serious injury to the shooter) when the round is fired, particularly for the larger rounds.
WARNING :::: AT YOUR OWN RISK ::::::: YOU'VE BEEN WARNED ::::::
Mini-Mag flashlights are physically almost identical to kubotans (except for the lightbulb at the opposide end), and there are entire martial arts schools built around using kubotans as fighting devices - they can be used to stabilize a closed fist for punching, swung on lanyards, or thrust endwise to strengthen a swinging or chopping blow to the neck or head, for example). $10 Mini-Mags are made of aluminum, but even $2 plastic knockoffs are quite effective. For this reason, they're on the TSA banned list.
WARNING :::: AT YOUR OWN RISK ::::::: YOU'VE BEEN WARNED ::::::
You can kill someone with a soda can - I'll let you figure out the details. You can make small devices which explode on impact after being thrown - remember that the starters on strike-anywhere matches ignite when dragged against any rough surface. Try lighting up a small piece of cotton impregnated with Vasoline. Hypodermic injectors (ok to carry onto a plane with doctor's prescription) can be filled with a number of deadly substances - made much more deadly when injected into the bloodstream.
WARNING :::: AT YOUR OWN RISK ::::::: YOU'VE BEEN WARNED ::::::
And you can buy nonmetallic knives Rambo would be proud to own, on the internet for less than $25. Yes, they have legitimate uses - in areas of high magnetic field, in environments that may be exposed to strong electromagnetic fields, for use on objects that may be connected to high voltage sources, in the disposal of bombs and sensitive electronic equipment that may be sent on the "fritz" by the proximity of a metal blade, for example. And yes, they're legal (as far as I know) in all states except California (where they must have a metal retaining ring so they will set off metal detectors), subject only to to the same regulations that would pertain to a comparable metallic blade. They're sold under the name "CIA Letter Opener."
WARNING :::: AT YOUR OWN RISK ::::::: YOU'VE BEEN WARNED ::::::
The scary part is, everything I just mentioned is pretty much common knowledge somewhere or another (and there's plenty more that I haven't shared, and undoubtedly plenty more that I simply don't know about). bin Laden's guys know all of this as well. It just illustrates to me how pointless most of these "screening" security measures are - other than to eliminate large weapons (e.g. axes, hatchets, chainsaws and teh like), illegal firearms, and large-scale explosive devices, pretty much any innocuous object can be readily engineered into a killing device more effective than many objects that are explicitly prohibited. And innocuous individual objects (for which the carriers would have legitimate reasons for possession, or else can be easily concealed or disguised to evade detection by all but the absolutely most invasive screening procedures) can be combined to yield devastatingly effective weapons.
And not a new idea, either; I remember people using these makeshift flamethrowers when I was in college, many moons ago. The smell that they put out is nearly asphyxiating.
Mini-Mag flashlights are physically almost identical to kubotans (except for the lightbulb at the opposide end), and there are entire martial arts schools built around using kubotans as fighting devices - they can be used to stabilize a closed fist for punching, swung on lanyards, or thrust endwise to strengthen a swinging or chopping blow to the neck or head, for example). $10 Mini-Mags are made of aluminum, but even $2 plastic knockoffs are quite effective. For this reason, they're on the TSA banned list.
A tightly rolled magazine can be a very dangerous weapon, for example if jammed end-first into someone's face or neck. And a bar of soap in a sock makes a highly effective black jack.
Reminds me of Full Metal Jacket...
A roll of quarters is great to stabilize a fist or to hold in the hand with the end protruding from between the thumb and forefinger, to be swung hook-style against the side of someone's head - if proper contact is made, one blow can be fatal (or at least enough to cause immediate unconsciousness). I actually brought one on a plane once - got through post-9/11 security just ok (though they did examine it and thought about it for a few seconds before waving me along), and it's probably a more effective weapon than a small non-locking pocketknife.
Just a little while ago I was experimenting with an empty Coke can. I made a saw-like blade by twisting and tearing it (bare hands, no tools, took less than 30 seconds). Then to test it out I lightly drew my finger across the edge and gave myself a nice nasty paper cut. Now, increase the pressure and bring it across someone's face or throat and you'll put Mohammad Atta's box cutter to shame...
Bending a can like that is a noisy process, so it would be difficult to accomplish on an airplane or other secure location.
Of course the more likely explanation is that they were a group of musicians, who maybe had a couple drinks, and all were buddy-buddy with each other. It's coincidental that they happened to be of Middle Eastern descent (and if they weren't, all of the behavior described would certainly not arouse that kind of suspicion, even if it evoked odd stares).
No one seems to know what's the deal with it, exagerrated, real, whatever. What's actually scary about the story is that it's too perfect on how it's all planned out to the detail, and you'd say that's way too perfect on how it's played out. Then you think isn't that the point? Shoulnd't these guys have it all planned out that perfect? They ususally do dont' they?
I have no firm opinion either way it's so tricky on this one. But I'm curious.
Is there a mixup between the external speaker wiring and the interior wiring? Can they be controlled separately, with CRs not aware of this (thus only enabling external speakers)?
\\Julian
The ones on the R-62s...some are okay but for the most part, you'll probably have a better chance of hearing the announcement coming from the exterior speaker than the interior one. And even if you do, it'll come out sounding partially muffled.
If I'm at Grand Central - 42 Street, and I want the <7>, and I get down to the platform and the train has mostly entered the station...well, you can't trust the side rollsigns on the (7). (Sometimes, you can't even trust the front bullet.) The only way to know for sure is to listen to the C/R announcement, but to do that, I have to actually get onto the train first! And sometimes the train is noisy, and/or the com system ain't working, as I mentioned before. It's really a pain.
I ride the (3) ocassionally, and the announcements sound clear as a bell on the R-62s.
If you're boarding the 7 at Grand Central, you still have four more stops to figure out if your train is a local or an express. And, since you want the express, the worst that happens even if you never hear an announcement is that your ride takes a few minutes longer. Express/local announcements are only absolutely critical at Queensboro Plaza on outbound expresses.
David
I'd estimate that the PA is barely audible inside most of the cars. On some, including the one I was on this afternoon, it's too loud. Once in a while, it's just right.
No you're not.
(Dunno if it was an R62 though...)
I gather you like anime'?
Adjusted for inflation, I would hazard a guess it is cheaper today then it was 30 or even 70 years ago. What has driven up costs are the environmental regulations, mitigation, liability, relocation, public hearing processes, changes made and or adds to the projects as the result of the public hearing processes . . .
John
Are there any studies or articles that address this?
I believe that this is an important area of concern. If subway construction costs can be reduced, more subways should get built.
One thing that is expensive is doing reconstruction on an operating transit system. Construction workers have to set up, work, tear down, set up, work, tear down. They are highly unproductive.
Another thing that hurts is digging in a complicated city, with utilities and accomodation of street access.
Another problem is antiquated work rules.
So on the 1/9 at the WTC, you didn't need to dig, the railroad was not operating, and the bullshit was worked around. The result -- fast cheap construction.
Yet the SAS will not be operating either, and it will be built with TBMs. Yet they are talking about $4 billion for three stations. Why can't that $4 billion get us all the way to 125th?
What type of rules? How could they be changed?
(What type of rules? How could they be changed?)
One example I know of. Electricians are very expensive. Sometimes, on large jobs, they insist that work that any laborer could do "belongs" to their union, and they refuse to let others do it. But there is a shortage of electricians, so that means you cannot get electrical work done.
At other times, on small jobs, they say that work that is not strictly electrical is not their job, so you have to have someone else there to do work they could have done themselves.
It all adds up to wasted time.
And when there's a shortage of skilled people who can pass the LICENSE exam, then you really don't want your electricians doing plumbing when they could be moving on to the next job. Here, you can blame the educational system and a yuppie society that looks down upon people who have tangible skills rather than shuffling paper. New York's BOCES program is a disaster, and once again society is highly biased against people who earn their living with tools and their bare hands instead of shuffling paper.
We were once a nation of craftspeople with INCREDIBLE skills. But such was beneath our collective "dignity" ... I'm sure China will be happy to supply electricians. :(
Don't mind me, it's a personal issue. We need more plumbers than lawyers but TRY to sell parents on the concept that unplugging drains is an HONORABLE career for little Johnny or Jane. :(
At the same time, there are the “you need an electrician to plug in an extension cord” sort of rules that drive people crazy. I’ve seen that myself when the organization I worked for had to pay an electrician for 4 hours (minimum, on overtime) when all he had to do was plug in a piece of computer equipment to a pre-installed outlet, just because it was under a raised floor. I absolutely understand the need for the electrician to install the outlet and run the cable back to the breaker box but the rest is just padding.
The unions have set up a system that drives up the costs and requires more workers than common sense would allow
As for the shortage of electricians. Well the union WON"T ALLOW LICENCE UNION ELECTRICIANS FROM OTHER AREAS TO WORK IN NYC driving up the hourly wage, stalling projects and driving up the cost
for example many projects end up waiting for the electrician, paying other workers who are waiting for the electrician to stand around.
The work rules are designed to drive up costs.
In a HOME situation, it's unlikely that a circuit would end up with a load that could start a fire, but once again I'd look to the insurance companies who want those rules enforced and a neck to grab if anything bursts into flame. Otherwise, I'd agree fully. But having experience in this area, there IS a point to it ...
Absolutely. It’s called a circuit breaker!
I understand temporary power. I also understand that contractors want to get their portion of the job completed so they can be off the site and be paid. But the “I am the only one who can plug your power saw in” attitude needs to go.
I can understand pre-arrival questions: “What power tools do you anticipate needing and what will be your total current draw?” That’s advance planning. That would allow the service provider to work out what electical requirements are needed (and penalize the subcontractors who lie…)
But “You need the Local 3 guy to plug your power saw in” is way beyond the curve!
Fiddlesticks, horsehockey and other equally silly-sounding words. Many moons ago, I put a 6K dimmer card on a counter in front of a Local 3 member, who then proceeded to argue with me over the thing's existence, the fact that there were 5 more just like it (one difference - those five were still working) in a single box back at the theatre and that I didn't need/have an IBEW member install the damned thing. I wasted 30 minutes with this "professional" in a crowded shop because he wouldn't believe an amateur.
Last summer, I had some major renovation work done in my house. The GC was great; the plumbers were from Oz; the carpenters were amazed when I pulled out old show blueprints to show what I had built; the electricians - local 3 again - were blithering idiots who couldn't read a blueprint to save their souls. As a result, I have a light switch in the laundry room that can only be reached by climbing on top of the washer and under cabinet light controls that are inside an appliance garage (which had to be removed for my elec. inspection - NYC code says you can't do that). As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't mean a thing if you can do it fast, if you can't do it right, and most of my experiences with "professional" electricians has led me to believe they can't do it right.
I find it hard to believe that the insurance companies have come up with the idea of electricians plugging in extension cords for carpenters - theatrical lighting is all considered 'temporary' and therefore outside of IBEW's purview and I know that all the off- and off-off B'way houses, as well as most college theatres, are well insured, even though most of their installations are done by Joe BeerCan (actually two theatres and one college theatre have installations done by Alex VodkaBottle).
One of the most ridicules ones in my opinion are the rules involving power for tools and equipment. Under present labor union rules a carpenter can not plug in saw without first having and electrician plug in an extension cord at the point where the power is and run it to where the carpenter wants to use the saw. When the carpenter moves the saw to a new location once again the electrician is called in to relocate extension cord.
There are many rules involving trade skills that prohibit one trade from doing his job more efficiently because he has to get someone else from a different trade skill to perform a task before he can continue working on what ever he is working on.
Most of these type of rules are their basically to protect the turf of one trade skill from another. They have little to do with the efficiently executing the project and or getting a particular task done by employees of a given trade skill.
John
Welcome to New York :(
That’s what mitigation is. Moneys spent on item that were either part of original project or added to project that have little of nothing to do with the basic purpose of the project.
John
--Mark
So the same issue that affected the R-110 test trains and the first R-142s/R143s ("third rail issues" in the Rockaways), affected the BU's too?
--Mark
Yes. more or less.
Those are the BU cars. I may try and attend one of next weekend's trips. It's probably that tomorrow's will be ruined by rain. :(
Only 1227 does?
(Scatman Crothers' famous line in "Silver Streak")
--Mark
When it's in Washington ;)
The bit about the subway shutting down in the rain when it's in Washington was a bit of sarcasm, involving that incident several months ago when the Metro shut down when a hurricane was forecast.
Chuck Greene
You're just jealous because they wouldn't let YOU run 'em ... for those who don't know the inside joke here, BMTman has *way* more hours in as an experienced motorman on gate cars than ANYBODY in C division.
--Mark
That would DEFINITELY be in get-a-life territory :)
--Mark
This is what I'd want (when either the R142s or R142As go to Corona):
Send the R142s from the (4) to Corona, the R62As from Corona to Westhester, and Westchester's R142As to the (4). Westchester doesn't do too good a job maintaining the R142As (bad light tubes, trash on the floor, dirty strip maps), but they maintained the R62As well when they were there.
What about you?
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
They only started to lay the foundation for the new Maintenance Building. Ben, did you go to today's MoD trip?
These MOD trips are so damn elusive to me. I wont give up though!
The reconstruction isn't even done yet.
This is just for AFTER the reconstruction is done. Let's just hope WESTCHESTER doesn't make it too hard for the poor old maintenance crews in the (4) yards to clean up after their act.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Oh and about the MoD trips, do your best to check information on the trips and routes on here.
as fot the post,i'd like to see ENY yard get the R32's and the R40's.
til next time
I think somebody from Westchester Yard noticed my rant on them a while back, and did something about it. I haven't seen a dirty strip map in a while.
As for the bad light tubes, that's not Westchester's fault. They didn't build the trains, nor did they create the light bulbs. Besides, I don't see bad lights on their trains very often.
And as for the trash on the floor....every car has trash on the floor. That's a rider issue, and a custodial issue. The trains are sweeped at the terminals.
Not for long. It has been posted that an 11-car R142 or R142A consist has been tested on the 7 but had clearance issues in the Steinway tunnel. And they posted pics to prove it.
Regards,
Jimmy
The pictures shown on SubTalk were of the 11-car R-142A sitting peacefully at Corona Yard.
A sign says 'To increase ventilation lower this window'.
This gives me an excuse to post the fact that currently on the London Underground website there is an interesting press release about "air cooling" - they don't call it air-conditioning - on the London Underground, which notoriously doesn't have a/c on the trains. See:
http://tube.tfl.gov.uk/content/pressreleases/0407/15.asp
A year ago, Mayor Ken Livingstone issued a challenge to people to come up with ideas for workable ways of cooling London Underground trains. Apparently there have been 3,400 responses!
Then for July and August the following service pattern should operate:
Tube Lines
BAKERLOO LINE
No service beyond Queen's Park, except for depot journeys
CENTRAL LINE
No service East of Liverpool St - Bethnal Green Station closed
NORTHERN LINE
Edgware / Mill Hill E branches only at N end.
PICCADILLY LINE
All trains to Heathrow
DRAIN
normal, um, errr, good service
VICTORIA LINE
normal, um, errr, good service
JUBILEE LINE
No service beyond West Hampstead
Surface Lines
Baker St - Amersham Fast
Chesham Shuttle
Baker St - Watford Semi-Fast
Aldgate - Uxbridge
Hammersmith - Whitechapel/Barking
Rayner's La - Edgware Rd
Ealing Broadway - Plaistow/Barking
Richmond - Upminster
Wimbledon - Edgware Rd
Wimbledon - Tower Hill - Stanmore (Jubilee Line stops)
Whitechapel - New X/New X Gate
Extra Surface/BR Lines
Euston DC Lines (increased frequency with short turns to replace Bakerloo intervals)
extra stops at West Ruislip and South Ruislip on the Chiltern Line
Liv St - Epping/Hainault/Woodford
Moorgate - Fisbury Park - High Barnet
Moorgate - Kentish Town - Barking (DMU alternative to Victoria Line)
Liv St - Chingford increased service
You cannot be seeerious! The A stock is over forty years old. All of these classes are due for replacement (by new stock with "air-cooling") in the next five-ten years. And build some more stock to a 30+-year-old design, which couldn't be ready much before the entry inot service of the first of the new stock (2009)?
"Extra Surface/BR Lines"
"Euston DC Lines (increased frequency with short turns to replace Bakerloo intervals)" - maybe, if Silverlink has enough rolling stock and staff
"Extra stops at West Ruislip and South Ruislip on the Chiltern Line" - doable, but there is hardly a tube level of frequency on the Chiltern line.
"Liv St - Epping/Hainault/Woodford" - So you've rebuilt the connection from the GE to Leytonstone, yes, but presumably with no flying junction - interesting effects on timekeeping of the main line out of Liverpool Street. And, um, Liv St-Stratford has overhead wire AC electrification while the Central Line has LU third and fourth rail DC. Um, rolling stock for this service??
"Moorgate - Fisbury Park - High Barnet" You have put the track back between Finsbury Park and East Finchley. But again, no flyover at Finsbury Park, with baleful effects on everything out of Kings Cross.
Again, what sort of electrification? What rolling stock?
"Moorgate - Kentish Town - Barking (DMU alternative to Victoria Line)" - Um, Murphy's builder's yard goes over where the south-to-east curve north of Kentish Town used to be. Murphy's just might object to the track going back in.....
"Liv St - Chingford increased service" - doable, provided that the rolling stock and staff are available.
And all of this just for two months a year until a solution to a/c on the deep tubes is found. But then, you were only joking, James, weren't you?
The Class 170s coming off MML. Either that or 47s and Mk II Stock.
"Moorgate - Fisbury Park - High Barnet" You have put the track back between Finsbury Park and East Finchley. But again, no flyover at Finsbury Park, with baleful effects on everything out of Kings Cross.
Again, what sort of electrification? What rolling stock?
There's definitely a dive-under at the southern end. There looks like there used to be one at the northern end too on whatever the OS are calling their 1:25000 maps these days. As far as electrification goes, it would be 3rd/4th Rail (newly installed from East Finchley to Drayton Park). It would use some of that extra C Stock.
And all of this just for two months a year until a solution to a/c on the deep tubes is found. But then, you were only joking, James, weren't you?
Damn, you noticed. Actually, there were one or two serious ideas in there... (mainly Wimbledon - Stanmore and Rayner's La - Edgware Rd).
Me: "Um, rolling stock for this service??"
Rail Blue: "The Class 170s coming off MML."
That's all of 44 cars; say four six-car and four five-car trains. Eight short (admittedly air-conditioned) trains to handle the whole rush-hour loading of the entire eastern end of the Central Line. I think the customers might prefer their present non-a/c tube trains to the crush conditions that would result!
Rail Blue: "Either that or 47s and Mk II Stock."
Loco-hauled main line stock, with doors only at the ends of the cars, on a tube line with closely-spaced stations. Would do interesting things to dwell times.... Not to mention the less-than-sparkling acceleration.
Rail Blue: "Damn, you noticed. Actually, there were one or two serious ideas in there... (mainly Wimbledon - Stanmore and Rayner's La - Edgware Rd)"
"Wimbledon - Stanmore": So you take the present Wimbledon-Tower Hill service of the District Line, extend it past Tower Hill and curve it round the Circle Line (presumably replacing the Circle Line, to get the track capacity needed?) to Baker Street, then up the Met to Finchley Road, and then across on to the local tracks to take over the northern end of the Jubilee Line. But at the same time you are terminating all Jubilee Line trains at West Hampstead, a through station consisting of just one island platform. How many tph do you suppose the Jubilee line and your Wimbledon-Stanmore service could handle at West Hampstead? This is a *serious* suggestion?
"Rayner's Lane to Edgware Road": Presumably Uxbridge would get the Met only, a reduced peak-hour service? This new service (presumably badged as District Line) would go Rayner's Lane-Acton Town-(via the District Line tracks, i.e. local)-Earls Court-High St Ken-Edgware Road. A real nowhere to nowhere service! And assuming it takes the Circle Line capacity between High St Ken and Edgware Road, with the Circle not operating (see above), there is no service between Gloucester Road and High St Ken at all, and only the Hammersmith & City line (6 tph) between Edgware Road and Baker Street.
You cannot be serious!
Did anyone win the prise of 100,000 BPS??
The press release said that the most likely contenders were still being investigated. It was issued on the first anniversary of the challenge being issued, to explain why they haven't decided on a winrer yet (so many more entries than anticipated).
However, it’s a lot of work and a lot of energy for the three days each year when London actually gets hot!
as for the OP's question, maybe places like india, where you not only have open windows, but doorless doors, and sometimes ppl sitting on top of the (diesel and steam) trains becasue it's just too crowded inside.
I do miss the 312s from Liverpool Street eastwards. Windows in all the right places, smooth ride and comfy seats. They never seemed to break down either.
Annoyingly there are bars across many of the windows. Must be to keep the wild animals from Portsmouth in ;-)
A recent visit to my home town showed plenty of slam-doors still operating, which is interesting since they are supposed to become illegal from the end of September. The replacements are on the property - sitting in sidings around Brighton, for example - has the problem of inadequate power supplies for these watt-guzzlers been solved?
I can’t remember the number of times I would have my head out of the window. That was real railfanning!
The officer said no and walked away."
The office was incorrect. I believe the supreme court recently ruled that a person does not have the right to refuse to identify themself to a police officer.
The Supreme Court ruled that such a requirement is not unconstitutional. Not all states have such a requirement.
I believe the SCOTUS case was concerned primarily with Terry stops - cases where the officer has probable cause to believe that a crime has been committed and is attempting to ascertain the identity of an individual they're speaking to.
Of course the officer doesn't pay you the courtesy of telling you he's executing a Terry stop, or whether he's just fishing for information.
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/212783p-183235c.html
I'm surprised that the MTA doesn't have a video camera panning the fare control area in a station. That would be one way to get the goods on these people.
Several months ago there was a TA cop who tried to break up a group of swipers at the old WTC station on the E. The swipers jumped the cop. I think an off-duty cop passing by saved him from being beaten.
It should be made illegal to pay a swiper for one's entry into the system. As far as I know, there's no such prohibition now. Large posters in stations should announce the policy. You are correct in pointing out that most swipers probably are low-lives who aren't much concerned with getting caught. Most passengers, however, are generally law-abiding and will avoid doing something they know is illegal.
It is illegal. It's called fare evasion.
I have seen mid-size posters in subway cars that say it is illegal to accept a swipe.
It is illegal. It's called fare evasion.
I have seen mid-size posters in subway cars that say it is illegal to accept a swipe.
I'm not so sure that accepting a swipe actually is illegal. As far as I know (and no, I'm not certain), as long as you enter through a turnstile you're legally in the clear. Note, in this context, that those anti-swiping posters are somewhat vague.
Did I break the law?
Was that the western most HEET at the 35th St entrance? That one is always acting up.
Peace,
ANDEE
Don't "exit swipers" realize that by "sharing" their fare, they're cutting into TA revenue and ultimately hurt themselves?
The only exit swiping is when disabled customers with a certain type of disabled metrocard can swipe at an auto gate to exit the system.
Sometimes when people exit at a turnstile they swipe their metrocard so they can get atransfer for a bus. By doing this they won't be able to make a transfer to a bus or train later when they get off the bus.
You've heard of "random acts of kindness" - such as the driver ahead of you paying his toll and yours on the bridge or turnpike, even though he doesn't know you at all.
If I swipe my card through the entry gate and leave without taking the subway at all and you enter the gate instead, it was a gift.
Ok, thats mostly impossible for NYCTA stations, though its run mostly like that on Septa.
And please stop giving bull about doing that to catch the train, this aint a RR, its not like you gotta wait 30Min for the next train.
And sometimes they'll just hold on to their money and just run thru the gate.
And that beanie is no bull!
I dont know what planet your from, but the one I'm living on, and in the state of NY, you dont see many people run through the gate just to catch a train(except for the few exceptions, but theres more then Half the people that dont do that). Its even on the posters saying that buying a swipe is against the law. Ever read the signs?
Note that at times it's a scheduled 20-minute wait for the next train, and I know I've had the experience of waiting 40 minutes for such a train, so it's not entirely a false instinct for people to always want to catch THIS train at all costs. If NYC had real-time arrival information displays to tell you that, indeed, there's another train about 4 minutes away, people might not be like that, but on most lines it'll be on the order of decades before such displays are installed.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I was at Gun Hill Road awhile ago, took photos, got stopped by the clerk, and some ass jumped the gate. And no, there was definitly no train. So not everybody has that rotten excuse.
But I got a store around the corner anyways, so I pick up a 20.00 card from them before taking the bus to Main St station.
Theres no excuse for jumping the gate, theres plenty of ways to get a farecard:
Stores
Booth
MVM's
MVM's for Credit Cards only
And I doubt there all busy at the same time.
"I did run under the turnstile one time when my Metro Card malfunctioned."
Well thats understandable as you atleast "tried" to pay. I too have had cards that gave me errors, thankfully it only happaned at times on the bus rather then the train.
"Don't tell me you haven't at one time or another wanted to get some where and something or someone was keeping you from doing it."
Yeah it happaned quite a few times pre-MVM's and such, but I dont jump the styles, I'll leave that to the people who think the systems a Uranel.
"Who are you anyway, JOB?"
I assume your asking somebody else and not me.
And when I lived in Brooklyn, before the MVM's/Metrocards and during the Metrocard period, I waited on line even when a train came, and so did everybody else. Stop with you ignorance, you think just because a trains there everybodys gonna run for it, even if that means jumping the gate. Well a good portion doesnt do that. And I keep saying that I didnt say nobody does that, so stop leading it on because thats the way you act at it.
Peace,
ANDEE
Whenever I enter the subway, the vast majority of people who enter with me go straight to the turnstiles with their MetroCards. Only a few have to stop at the booth or machine.
As I said elsewhere, I'm not so certain. As long as you enter through a turnstile following the swipe of a valid card, you may be legally okay. Morally, of course, it's a different story.
So now those idiots are getting free room and board in the joint.
I applaud the booth agent for defending MTA and its customers' best interest.
I have always maintained that "swipe sellers" are criminals who vandalize MetroCard vending machines, steal from all of us and hurt people's sense of safety in the subway.
I have, on two separate occasions, had "swipers" (one in Atlanta) arrested and removed from the transit station and would not hesitate to do it again. A certain percentage of them commit other crimes too, and I don't want anybody like that trespassing in a station I use.
The second time was in NY. I backed away from the turnstile in question, went around the corner and directed a police oficer over to the area. Problem solved.
I think booth clerks should do more, but after this burn incident; what is there to do? I suppose rider vigilance is needed.
it's not worth it to try and be a hero because someone is charging other riders a dollar to get in the system.......what are you personally getting out of trying to stop a swiper from doing that? you aren't getting a reward or anything.....i can see if you tell the police, but to try and stop them? come on......with the number of incidents that go on in the subway, i don't blame riders for not speaking up......sometimes, just minding your own business is the best way to go, and if they get caught, they get caught...........
If he does get caught, instead of a minor offense he'll probably be charged with arson and maybe attempted murder. What a schmuck.
-Broadway Buffer
But the market at $2 is far smaller than the market at $1, since the legitimate competition is charging $1.67.
Halon itself is something of a health hazard. But when you have to put out a big pool of flaming gasoline in an enclosed area, I don't think anyone would complain.
Lisa, if you're out there somewhere let us know how you and the baby are!
You might recall my comments here about the American Sikh who got stepped on for wearing his turban on the 4 train recently. New York was always a place where people from all over the world could feel welcome and pretty safe. I'd hate to think that the hatred that America seems all about lately is turning into such a vicious malignancy. :(
You might be right, Selkirk. I seem to remember that in September 2001 at least one Sikh shopkeeper in the USA was actually murdered by someone who thought his turban indicated that he was a Muslim. (Of course, he didn't deserve to be murdered even if he had been a Muslim.) I also remember reading the story of a Muslim paramedic (of Pakistani parentage) who was among those killed on 9/11, having hurried to the WTC to offer his professional help to the wounded on hearing of the first attack.
The racist right in the UK is equally incapable of distinguishing between different religious and racial groups - they tend to lump togther all people whose ancestors came from the Indian subcontinent, regardless of whether they are Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs or Christians. In the eyes of such bigots, anyone who is different from "us" is fair game for attack.
The worst I've encountered has been only a few dirty looks from the swipe-seller, and some bad-mouthing about depriving him of an (illegal) income by using my own (employee) MetroCard.
Chuck Greene
We had heard from operators along the line that the South Channel Bridge got stuck on Thursday as well, and that took 5 hours to resolve!
--Mark
(Or the Coney Island Creek bridge?)
I'm praying that the J line is on next weekend's itinerary. The Rockaways are nice, but not appropriate for this equipment.
Cutting Irons and a hammer got the other to come apart & go back togather. The operator who put them back togather Saturday did it as if he does it every day ! (the rest of the crew seemed impressed with his skill too)
Wait a minute. 484 and 100 were at the points while 401 and 1575 were in the middle. Unless, of course, the conductor's station wasn't in the middle of the train...
Actually, if Dougie were to be conductor on those cars on Oct. 28-29, that would be great, especially if I were to luck out and catch that train. I'd probably spend more time in the middle of the train than at the railfan window.
Wanna bet that train will run on either the A or D then?
Dougie has more R-9 experience than people give him credit for.
The BU/Q cars use a van Dorn link pin coupler. The adapter
mates with the H2A head and presents a Van Dorn link which can
be mated with the coupler. The adapter breaks out the two
tappet valves from the face of the H2 coupling to individual
"glad-hand" hose couplings.
There was extreme difficulty getting them UN-coupled after the
lunch break.
the difficulty was in getting the BQs to take power correctly.
The Rockaways are nice, but not appropriate for this equipment.
1200 and 1400 series BU cars operated on those tracks from 1906
to about 1918 under a joint trackage rights arrangement with
the LIRR.
Where was the connection? The Fulton St. line extension from Grant Ave didn't open until 1915.
July 17th, 1898 saw the first joint service between the Brooklyn Elevated Railway and the LIRR. The Chestnut Street incline opened connecting the Broadway - Brooklyn El to the LIRR at Atlantic Avenue and Rockaway Avenue. El trains ran through to Rockaway Park. On October 4th, LIRR trains ran through service from Broadway Ferry to Jamaica using the incline. This service lasted only three months, ending January 10th, 1899.
With BRT control came electrification and through services on the Els. By July 1st, 1900, the Myrtle Ave and Lexington Ave Els were electrified, as was the Broadway - Brooklyn El between Broadway Ferry and East New York.
The LIRR electrified the Chestnut Street incline on July 28th, 1906. A special adapter at the beginning of the ramp along the LIRR's Atlantic Ave line enabled the third rail shoe of the LIRR cars to be moved to the "correct" position for traveling over the El. Service ran to Broadway Ferry until May 30th, 1909, when LIRR service was extended over the Williamsburgh Bridge to the new "Manhattan Terminal" (today's Essex Street). Service lasted until September 3rd, 1917, and the structure was not dismantled until 1942 (although parts were torn down in 1924).
--Mark
That's what I thought he wrote too, but I believe it was the LIRR
steam service to Bway Ferry that lasted only a few months.
The BRT operated steam on the LIRR connection until the Chestnut
ramp itself was electrified in 1906. At that time, LIRR MP-41s
began operation via Broadway to the ferry, and later to Chambers
St. once the Centre St. line was finished.
BRT electric trains ran to Rockaway Park until 1917.
The LIRR used covered third rail, while the BRT els used exposed third
rail with gravity shoes. It seems that the LIRR MP-41s had
a universal shoe with two height settings. The BU cars which were
used for this service must have been fitted with paddle type shoes rather than gravity because all pictures I have seen of the Rockaways during the joint service years show covered third rail.
--Mark
I meant 07.17.04
Just some help ID'ing some of these folks: who's the dude at far left with the Aviator glasses and the two guys only donning 'New York' wear?
Also I'm sure if the weather were nicer the turnout could've been greater
Who are the others?
BTW< MY PIX WILL ALL BE POSTED TOMORROW along with the Sunday Trip pix.
-Chris
Oh, and when we were all standing there, I didn't realize my arm was blocking John's face. Sorry!
Standing up for family values since 1981.
Had a great time today, looking forward to tomorrow, rain or shine!
WTF?
I think part of it was explained here a while back, though I don't know where the post would be...
I always wondered what the loud bangs were when the redbirds started up, and then one day I saw that sometimes the truck starts moving before the car body or vice-versa - I guess the brakes would release differently from truck to truck.
David
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/18/nyregion/18swipe.html?pagewanted=1
TIA
Matt
Not only that, but dip readers are usually a bit slower than swipe readers - the difference might be only a half-second or so, but when large numbers of people are trying to enter, it adds up.
The most likely answer I can come up with is that the vansdalism we see at the MVMs would be inflicted on the turnstiles or faregates. Any other reasons?
David
but then again. the MTA always likes to screw the rider when trying to save a buck to line it's own pockets.
i remmeber having had card problems with a metrocard gaining entry into a station in jamaica more than a year ago. two turnstyles, the token booth closed, and a "please swipe again at this turnstyle." leaving me swiping the card for 10-12 minutes; eventually i was forced to jump it. fucking MTA, i had the choice of 1) risking arrest or 2) paying a double fare to use the subway (With zero chance of having the MTA refunding the first fare because of a defective turnstyle reader, amd no authorized agents around to investigate it.)
If MTA went with RFID technology, then "customers" would be able to carry a card-like object, wave it by as they pass through the gate, or with the newest technology, probably wouldn't need to wave it at all. It's QUITE reliable and doesn't depend on contacts or magnetic heads that would require cleaning. What we have NOW in "Meatball cards" is a pathetic joke in terms of reliability. :(
That said, I do criticize the MTA for not getting rid of the token much earlier, reducing token booth numbers and then investing in measures to assist in reliability: having the readers call home when they detect that the percentage of mis-reads has hit a threshold for example.
I believe the MTA is going to get to RFID in the relatively near future: the new turnstiles at the PATH WTC station have the plastic dimples that are the hallmark of RFID technology. (And before anyone points out to me that PATH is the Port Authority, I believe that any new card will replace both MTA and Port Authority cards)
Then again, with current "Homeland security" madness, maybe it's a GOOD thing that "swipe again" is so prevalent ... terrorists will spontaneously combust at the 'stiles rather than on a train. :)
As an enegineer type though, I've always been fascinated with RFID and because I'm also gravely concerned about personal privacies when law enforcement already knows you're not a threat but I still fear what corporations will do with my personal information (outside the bounds of the constitution) and how they'll screw it up, I've always regarded RFID as a potential biblical "666" and thus the fascination and interest in its progress.
But GIVEN the "environment" of the subways, a farecard method that DOESN'T require "cleanliness" at the point of sale is critical now that there's no alternative but to "swipe again, SEE AGENT" ... ummm ... *WHAT* agent? :(
Even more damning evidence of upcoming RFID use in the subway is that all of the hundreds of MEMs that were installed beginning in 2001 have what are apparently RFID transponders on them.
SmartLink will probably debut on PATH and AirTrain JFK once they replace all of the turnstiles on PATH with the new ones like at WTC.
Welcome back, by the way.
Current subway RFID implementations have a passive device which merely transmits its serial number when activated, relying on a database of stored values elsewhere. MetroCards have read/write mag stripes where the value is encoded and deducted. This allows them to be used on buses, where there isn’t constant communication with a central database.
Does anyone know how the MTA is thinking about implementing RFID so it will work on buses too?
The security is there as well to allow "offloading" to the "cards" and that would have an added benefit that weighed in favor of the mag strip until recently - not only would it hold a lot more data than the magstripe, but again it would be "refillable" limitless times (by comparison to bent cardboard) and actually cost less over time owing to the infrequent need for replacement as is the case with the cardboard magstripers. I've been playing with the stuff ... it really DOES work. And I'm a professional cynic. I've wanted to find fault with it, really I did ... it WORKS. :)
From a mechanical point of view, the cards can be made that little bit heftier so that the replacement cycle is mostly losses rather than failure, so the lifetime cost will be less.
Equipment maintenance costs should be less as there’s nothing to clean, and the rubber dimples covering the transponders on the turnstiles should only need replacement every few months.
One question that has been raised is how to prevent the reading of a RFID card in the rider's pocket when leaving a bus by the front door (where the farebox/reader is. The engineers are aware of the potential problem, the answer isn't in yet. No test of hardware is scheduled and may not be until WMATA decides what will be done about fare collection on the Metro. The current system is 1970's vintage, and the faults are well known.
If I have to physically swipe, it's my own fault if I swipe the wrong card.
That makes it impossible to buy a new 30-day unlimited a day or two early.
Which is what I do and is what I will continue to do. I'm not going to wait until the old card has expired, only to find that the machine at my home station is broken or it has a long line. I buy early when I come across a machine with no line. And what if I want to start off my unlimited on a bus?
Dan Lawrence mentioned a problem on the Baltimore buses of cards being detected as passengers exit. We'd have the exact same problem on the subway, which, unlike WMATA, is pay-on-entry. There aren't enough turnstiles at most stations to have half entry-only and half exit-only.
RFID will be practical if the signal is very weak and it's used to essentially permit sloppy swiping. Otherwise it will read too many wrong cards.
As for the charging-on-exit problem, maybe some operator intervention is required on buses (turning off the RFID sensor temporarily while people exit), but the subway solution is simple: if the turnstile has just been used for exit, don’t charge the card. However the RFID systems I have seen need quite close physical proximity, since the card is powered by induction from the reader (no battery onboard), so you have to place the card, give or take a wallet in between, physically on the reader pad.
Note that this differs from EZPass, where the car transponders contain a battery (but they’re much bigger!).
But the turnstile problem is real if the cards can be read from pockets. New Yorkers aren't orderly. You've never seen someone exit through a turnstile after you've swiped at it but before you've actually entered? Can you ensure that his card isn't debited?
But there is a way to do that. Have the turnstile itself do that - the transaction doesn't occur unless the turnstile has both interacted with your card and the gate itself has spun in the entry direction.
From the rider's perspective, one should try to be in the turnstile itself prior to swiping or otherwise paying, so that you can then proceed through.
And unlike earlier cards that were just a serial number, actual logic as well as storage is possible on the newer ones with nonvolatile memory. They'd be every bit the same as the meag stripe cards of today with the additional benefit of active encryption as well as greater storage capacity.
Reasonably, a second pass going in the same direction is you paying for someone else traveling with you.
They already use RFID passes in Washington and Chicago. It isn't a problem there, why would it be a problem here?
For a living, I deal with computer and "user" problems. This tends to give me a general Luddite mindset since I am surrounded by all that goes WRONG with "technology" ... however, in the NYCTA, I think that the mag-stripe cards are a far bigger failure point than RFID would be. And whereas RFID wasn't mature a few years ago, it's certainly "good enough" now. So actually, I'm in FAVOR of it for "here." :)
You assume that the SmartLink won't allow refills of unlimiteds. That isn't a reasonable assumption since they won't be selling them from vending machines like MetroCards.
It is very likely that they will be refillable. London's Oyster cards (both unlimiteds and pay-per-rides) can be refilled online or by phone. And as regards the strength of the RFID signal - in London it must be quite weak, as you actually have to *touch* your card to the yellow pad to make it work. On the tube, you "touch in and touch out" to open the gates (and you have to do so even if the gates are open). On buses you just touch in (in view of the driver so that he can see that you have), but as the buses are flat-fare you don't need to touch out. On the Docklands LR and Croydon Tramlink, which like the tube have zonal fares, you have to touch in and touch out using pay-per-ride, even though there is no fare control barrier; if you don't touch out, you pay too much, because the system assumes the maximum fare is payable in that case. A reasonable incentive to get it right!
You're whining but you haven't even tried to address it. Write a letter of complaint to the TA first, and if they refuse a refund, then you have a legitimate gripe.
It's obvious that unattended HEET's aren't cleaned often enough. It took me about a minute to get in at 41st and 7th one evening last week, and when I got the signal, everybody else looked at me in awe.
On a school day at Court Square station (IND Crosstown "G"), transferring from the 7 to the G, I went to the entrance. There, there are only 3 "steel whirlpools" (I know they have a different name, but that's what I like to call them. It's those that have a metrocard reader and there's a tall steel bars that spin around). Using my student metrocard, I swiped at my usual spot (the one on the left hand side). "Please swipe again" <- I swiped and I counted 18 times on that turnstile and I got that. Pissed, I went to the next whirlpool and then "Just Used". WTF was my response. But, I wasn't in a hurry, but I decided to use my paid metrocard on the second turnstile and I got in. I have effectively made a $2 donation to the MTA against my will. I had a paper, pen and tape, so I wrote "out of order" on a paper and taped it over the card reader. Something must be done. Damn I hate those cards. BTW: This happened this year.
Just for future reference, they are officially called "rye bread slicers"...
The "EZ-Fare" could be refilled monthly by an automatic credit card transaction, or whenever you get close to being out of rides.
It's also not used by those of us who don't like Big Brother watching our every move. There's enough of that as it is... why give the government any more ability than they're already finding to abridge our Constitutional rights?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes it is.
When I first signed up for E-ZPass, I lived in Illinois.
I've used E-ZPass three times so far in 2004, and two of those were on a single trip.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
-w.e.s.
When Gov. McGreedy was running for office in 2001, one of his campaign promises was to remove the tolls on the GSP within 10 years. Now, New Jersey is beginning a plan to "speed up traffic" at the Raritan and Asbury Park tolls that will cost so much money that it won't break even for 14 years. So much for promises :-(
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What do you mean by "New York"?
The NYS Thruway used to charge, but I believe they stopped.
I think I heard the PANYNJ is planning to charge.
The MTA has never announced any plans to charge. They save so much money on toll collectors from EZ Pass that they'd lose money if they discourage EZ Pass use.
I didn't bother to get an EZ Pass when only the NYS Thruway had it and charged for it, and I would have only used it a few times per year. But as soon as the MTA started offering and accepting it, and in fact offering a discount for use, I got one and have never paid cash since.
The Port Authority started charging a few months ago. I had to turn in my Port Authority tag for an MTA tag, which required a visit to a walk-in center (none of which are in walking distance of anything at all, including the subway, and none of which are open on Sundays).
The MTA and the Thruway currently have no plans to charge monthly fees. And various other agencies based outside New York don't charge fees, either.
E-ZPasses are issued by agencies, not by states. Just like a MasterCard, if you don't like the terms offered by one agency, you're free to use a different agency. I don't pay annual fees on my credit cards and I don't pay monthly fees on my E-ZPass.
They did when they were the only people who issued and accepted EZPass, and then for a while after the MTA started to issue and accept them.
We're talking the mid-1990s here.
Several years later, I think the deposit requirement was dropped.
--Mark
MTA only charged $10 deposit, and never per month.
NYS Thruway also charged $1/month. This was before the MTA dealt with EZPass at all.
New York isn't charging fees - yet - but the idea is being considered. Maryland does, Delaware does not, and I don't know about Pennsylvania.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Unless they've made a pact with the NJ Turnpike (which is possible), they should be willing to sign you up.
New Jersey, the state, does not issue E-ZPass tags. The Regional Consortium, now apparently called the New Jersey Customer Service Center, issues tags on behalf of the New Jersey Turnpike Authority. The NJCSC charges a $1 monthly fee.
The New York Service Center handles accounts on behalf of the Port Authority, the New York State Thruway, and the MTA (I don't know what the deal is with the New York State Bridge Authority). Port Authority accounts are charged a $1 monthly fee. Thruway and MTA accounts have no monthly fees, and no monthly fees are currently being considered. (Unfortunately, when signing up by mail or online, there is no way to request a tag from a particular agency, so there's a 1/3 chance of being hit with the $1 fee.) There are no fees for bimonthly statements; monthly statements are available for a $6 annual surcharge.
I suppose if I used my North Carolina address - and had a credit card that was billed to that address - I could get one where I chose. But since my wife and I aren't in North Carolina on a predictable enough basis to get the mail in a timely manner (and thereby keep the credit card paid up), I can't do that.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You can pay the bill for that credit card online and you'd never need to see the printed statement.
Again: anybody, in any state, can sign up for E-ZPass with any agency that offers it.
If everybody in New Jersey is supposed to use the New Jersey Customer Service Center, and everybody in Pennsylvania is supposed to use the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission, then who is entitled to open accounts with the Delaware River Joint Toll Bridge Commission?
Pick your favorite agency that offers E-ZPass. Print out the form, fill it out, and mail it in. You will be enrolled in E-ZPass through that agency.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It is indeed the case that the smartcards are really most suitable for regular travellers, and unless the cost of the chips comes down very low, its is likely that the magnetic-strip tickets will stay in use for the non-regulars.
What is ridership like during certain times of the day?
I assume ridership is heavy(crushload) during morning and afternoon rush nours.....But what about midday, evenings, and weekends?
Interesting the Metro lines usually do not have a "crush" load like, for example, the Lexington Avenue Line. Most people refuse to move to the area in between the door areas, so only the door areas are packed, the rest of the train is not so bad. If they ever switch to 4 door-set per side per car, the load might be more even. On a recent trip to Barcelona, I saw 4 door-sets per side on 50' cars. The train appears to be nearly all doors, and it's very efficient. Then again they run 5-car (only) trains every 4 minutes a lot of the day and every 2 minutes during the rush.
I do agree that the trains are not at capacity because no one rides in the middle of the cars. Perhaps the 7000 Series cars will come with 4 doorways but I don't think its been raised yet.
What is ridership like during certain times of the day?
I assume ridership is heavy(crushload) during morning and afternoon rush nours.....But what about midday,
evenings, and weekends?
I don’t recall WMATA ever publishing hour by hour boarding statistics.
WMATA does have a spike around noon.
Hour by hour boarding statistics do exist and they are used for scheduling, dispatching and figuring train consists. You might call WMATA and ask them if you can get these number.
John
I used to do a more standard commute, inbound at about 8 AM (peak of AM rush) and out in the afternoon at around 3, but now I go outbound in the morning at about 7:20 AM and inbound in the afternoon at any time from 4 to 6, so I really don't see alot of people on my commute, especially in the morning.
I spent a few hours walking around Washington's main tourist areas early on a Sunday morning in 1996. From when I started at about 7:30, until 9:00 or so, most of the tourists I saw were Japanese. Americans and other foreigners didn't come out until after 9:00.
I like to sleep a bit later when I'm on vacation, but I find if I deviate from my schedule too much, it becomes hard to adjust upon my return home. Of course, my sleep schedule this summer has been all over the place. I've only done 4 early morning bike rides so far.
The lite rail line proposal on the Georgetown Branch (Purple Line) died the day Robert L. Ehrlich was elected governor of Maryland. Don’t make any bets that the proposal will given a new life after governor Ehrlich finishes his term(s) in office.
John
The only station that I know of that has one is Shady Grove.
http://world.nycsubway.org/us/washdc/overview.html#future
That was based on Metrorail's press releases and a website they put up for construction news.
I think you mean the end of next year. The opening of New York Avenue station is tentatively scheduled for November of 2005. I am not quite sure about the G Route extension to Largo, but I would hazard a guess it will also happen in 2005.
John
I find that hard to believe because the contractor was still pouring concrete for the structures in the underground tail tracks east of the Largo (G05) station as late as three months ago.
Startup testing can take up to six months to be excepted. Normal practice is to do the testing on the full length of the segment not on segments as they become ready for testing. After fully passing expectance testing it is then turned over to WMATA.
John
That would indicate testing during startup operations should follow very soon. Non operational testing of the power distribution system will happen first. The first train movement under third rail power will be pushing the feeler car along every foot of track along the segment. Any obstruction will be relocated if found. Then full testing of all of the train control systems will commence.
If all of the non operational finishing work is completed in time, and no significant snags are encountered during startup testing, sounds to me like opening could happen as soon as February of 2005. My best guess would be a March or April opening.
As to the tentatively scheduled of November of 2005 for the opening New York Avenue, this was told to me by a source at WMATA. A lot of stuff that has to do with the fact that New York Avenue is an infill station is one of the reasons for the late 2005 opening.
John
My source at WMATA is very close to the decision making process involving the scheduling of when the various trackwork and train control installation work will happen. Back in April WMATA had not completely finalized what would happen and when it would happen.
As late as a week ago none of the mainline tracks through the station had yet been cut in and as far as I know it still hasn’t happened.
After the tracks are cut in all of the associated train control hardware through the areas where the connection are made has to be installed and tested. Being that revenue trains will be running on these tracks none of the testing can be done during revenue operation. The window for testing can be done only during time when WMATA is closed it will take longer then the time that is available out on the G Route extension.
It will be a two step process. First the southbound track B2 will be cut in. Then the former southbound track B2 along the northbound side station will be removed. After removal of the former southbound track B2, the northbound track B1 along the platform will be installed. Then the existing northbound track B1 will cut in to the new track along the platform.
After all of the track are cut in the M Street interlocking will be moved south 1,255’ (382.5m). Again train control hardware through relocated M Street interlocking will have to be tested. From what I understand work on the M Street interlocking relocation part of the project will happen after the station opens.
Oh and during this time between when the tracks are cut in and the train control hardware is installed, tested and excepted for revenue operations this area will be dark territory. That means all train through the station will operated manual control at no more the 15 MPH.
John
On the rare occasions I ride during the workweek, the rush hours are really packed, middays are busier than usual, and the evenings are surprisingly really busy, with late meetings and such [I rode a packed Yellow Line trais at 8:30 pm on a Thursday one time].
Metrorail ridership varies by time of day, but is fairly even distributed between AM peak, PM peak, and off peak periods.
More than 70% of ridership occurs in AM and PM peak periods.
On a systemwide basis, peak one-hour ridership accounts for approximately 43% of peak period ridership.
Metrorail ridership by time of day for average weekday for FY2001
AM Peak (6 AM-9:59 AM): 35%
Midday (10:00 AM-3:29 PM): 19%
PM Peak (3:30 PM-7:29 PM): 36%
Evening (7:30 PM-12:00 AM): 10%
Peak in AM rush entries occurs from 8:30-8:59 AM
Peak in PM rush entires occurs from 5:30-5:59 PM
The 5:30 to 5:59 PM period is the period during which the most boardings occured over the course of an average day.
Arthur Thomas
Most crowded stretch of the system: Gallery Place to Union Station on the Red Line
I'd be leaving from Port Washington(zone 4), going to Woodside(Zone 1), then going to either Bay Shore, Sayville, or Patchogue(Zone 10). Now, can I just pay the monthly price for a ticket from zone 4 to zone 10, or do I have to pay for a monthly from zone 4 to zone 1, and then another monthly from zone 1 to zone 10?
Arti
Btw: When are we RFing at mineola or hicksville or where?
avid
It was a great excursion today, especially with the BU cars running under power. More later...
Your pal,
Fred
--Mark
Question: do these cars still have the lightweight IRT trucks they had when they were Q types, or do they have some other type?
I quote from the flyer: "We will be towing these cars with the R1/9 museum cars, though if the BU cars prove to be operable we will attempt to give them a chance to run alone."
And as for the G.O, that back and forth part out in the Rockaways sounded like a chance to operate them alone because otherwise they would need someone flagging in the front when the R-1/9's were pushing and I don't think they would do that with passengers on board.
Yes, those would be the trucks from the Composite cars. The #1400 series motor cars have them. The center trailer car has the original Peckham 40 trailer trucks.
Bill "Newkirk"
Chuck Greene
A real teaser here:
Enjoy.
-Chris
-Chris
If I'm reading the LIRR schedules right, they should depart (offpeak at 12:23pm) at Hampton Bays and transfer at Jamaica to NYP. My question is, when the train arrives at Jamaica, how do you know which train to transfer to for NYP?, will it be announced or is there some signs pointing (sorry never ridden or been to LIRR before).
Thanks.
They could also just ask fellow passengers at Jamaica.
Plus, there are usually only two or maybe three tracks being used for westbound trains at Jamaica. And every platform has an electronic sign displaying where the next arriving train on that platform will be going, and when it will arrive. It's very easy.
i started off at Lorimer st paying the $2 fare and i had to swipe like
10 times(it kept on saying "see agent")until the token booth clerk let
me pass.caught a G train going to CI,at Church Av i was greeted by R33
WF#'s 9340(lead motor)and 9312.they were pulling a garbage train with
the last motor being R127 EP007 (i think that was the #).i looked at
the R33WF cars and noticed one of 9340's rollsign with a knob and they
were all set to the 7 line.i also looked at the R127 and look in the
cab,the speedometer look's diffrent from the other speedometer i'v seen,
and the left side of the car had doors that looked alot like the one
ya see on the R142/A when your crossing cars.after that i got on the
next G to CI.passing Ave X i looked into CI yard to see if i could spot the R110B,and i didn't see one.i did see some R30 cars and also
saw that the R16's that were there were moved.also saw R32#3620 in the
museum yard along with the other cars.(what is it doing there if it is
out of service and permanently retired?)also saw an 8-car set of R33ML
at the other end of the yard towards the expressway.i was also wondering what kind of work are they doing at the Ave x side of the yard?got off at CI and took a Queens-bound G to Hoyt-Schermerhorn and
waited for a rockaway-bound A train,while waiting i saw an F train and
the LED signs were set to Euclid Av.then i remembered that there was no c service so the F replaced the C.got on R38#3983 and i was gonna
take it to Broad Channel thinking that the BU train would pass that
station.but i spotted the train at Howard Beach on the middle track,
and met up with Joe Testagrose and Doug Grotjahn.we went to Aqueduct
N Conduit and waited to see the BU train pass by(the cars look great)
and Joe showed me his pics of the BU cars on their own power on the
Rockaway Pk line,on my way the Bway Junction Doug told me that R6#1300
is at the 207 yard for restoration.got off at Bway Junction and took
J train R42#4672 to Marcy AV and home tired.great day for me,and i'll
be out there next weekend chasing the BU cars on the J line.
til next time
til next time
til next time
Yes, the tuna is gone. In its place are scratch marks. I guess they had to use steel wool to get it off.
I'm sorry for starting a new thread about this, but I searched the archives and couldn't find any of the old threads. Anyhow, back when I posted the above photo taken during the Discovery Times Channel Ultimate Ride last year, some people were saying that the "stainless steel" belt shown on those R-44 cars was not really stainless steel, but was instead just painted differently to look like stainless steel. Well on Friday for the first time in almost a year, I finally saw the stainless steel R-44's again. I was at Chambers St, and an R-44 (A) going the opposite direction came in. I ran up to the front of the train and touched the "stainless steel" band and sure enough, IT WAS REAL STAINLESS STEEL. End of story. Another mystery solved. :)
I don’t want to sound like a smart ass. Why would any one think that part of the side of any of the stainless steel cars was any thing but stainless steel. The whole side is stainless steel, much like the single stamping aluminum sides on bart and WMATA cars.
John
And on this particular pair of 44s, the stainless steel band is a separate panel, unlike the 46es.
Please excuse my ignorance of how the car sides on these cars were fabricated. I ‘ass’umed the side was a single piece of stainless steel from where the side connected to the roof down to the bottom below the floor line. This is the only stainless steel railroad or transit car that I have ever heard of where part of the exterior sides or roof were not all stainless steel.
John
IMHO
avid
#3 West End Jeff
til next time
thanks for reminding me.
til next time
I was wearing my Independent Subway T shirt once when he asked about it. OK, I cut him some slack on that one, since people won't know unless they're from New York (he wasn't).
He even drove my mother crazy, and that's saying something. The guy my sister eventually married is inquisitive, but at least he asks intelligent questions.
Presumably they wanted a station at 68th, for Hunter College. That's too close to 72nd, but too far from 79th, so the one station between 68th and 86th was placed at 77th.
Further north, 96th-106th-116th was probably considered too sparsely spaced, so instead we got 96th-103rd-110th-116th, copying the West Side spacing (even though 110th is wide on the West Side). Apparently that pattern was considered successful; it's probably the longest sequence of equivalent stops on three parallel lines in the system.
It just seems like 42, 50, 57, 66, 72, 79, 86 would have made more sense. Presumably there were crosstown trolleys on the wide streets.
(The mistakes I make for being a wise guy!)
Perhaps, but there was a choice between building a station at an institution that would clearly provide passengers vs. building one at a cross street where there was effectively nothing (66th).
Also 59th had the streetcar, 57th didn't. 59th is favored for stops. Only the existence of Central Park caused there to be two 57th Street stations
Presumably there were crosstown trolleys on the wide streets.
No, there weren't. I would imagine that at the time that the Lexington line was built, there were no buses either. The only crosstown streetcar between 59th and 125th was a short line on 86th Street between 2nd and Avenue A (York), then on A to 94th to serve the Hell Gate Ferry to Astoria.
I forgot to note the services along 116th Street, which were part of north-south routes.
There's original-looking Lenox Hill Hospital signage at the station, so presumably the hospital was around by then.
Lenox Hill Hospital was renamed from German Hospital in 1918 because of World War I.
Almost all (not all, almost all) stations are built at the major 2-way streets, such as Houston, 14, 23, 34, 42, 57, 59th (between 5th & 8th Avenues), 72, 79, 86, 96, 106 (no station) 110, 116, 125, 135, 145. The others are put in usually to provide uniform spacing, which is why 103rd gets a station and not 106th, or why there is a whole bunch of stations at 49th or 50th or 51st Streets. Also, on the Lexington they tried to have stations just under every 1/2 mile north of 42St, hence 51, 59, 68, 77, 86 (Bingo, a 2-way main crosstown street again). Look at a Manhattan Bus map and you can see which are the major crosstown streets: the ones with 2-way bus service.
Peace,
ANDEE
Perhaps they decided that stations needed to be spaced roughly the same distance apart and knew that certain locations were important at that time? What the didn't know was how things would be in 50 or 100 years hence.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/18/nyregion/thecity/18muza.html
and HEY! everyone wants to hear Frere Jacques in minor, don't they?
Well, at least Mozart wrote enough stuff that they shouldn't need to repeat anything for a while, if they just build up their library a bit. Not to mention all his lesser-known contemporaries.
They weren’t bad either. Much better than today’s offering which is usually a horrible performer being accompanied by a CD of the rest of the orchestra!
no double bass
Now you are prodding my memory, I don’t remember a cello, so maybe that quartet had a sub!
The piano was apparently stored in the Coliseum. I once saw him pushing it across Broadway.
Replace "classical" with any other type of music and it's still a true statement.
Some of it is. ;-)
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/18/fashion/18NITE.html
I'm a little miffed that I wasn't invited. I guess I went to the wrong high school and college.
You have two choices: park or demolition. At this point, opposition to the park is support for demolition.
Because people who live there don't want neither the rail service nor the structure. As a park, they might be enticed to accept the structure, and maybe someday, light rail can run through the park.
That's great, until you try to get the City Council or DCP to approve something. Also, CSX has said they would transfer ownership to the City, but with the stipulation that it is not used for rail transit.
I do understand the noise issues, which is why this is one case where I would like to see LRVs rather than heavy subway cars (my experience of the current Kinki-Sharyos on the Hudson-Bergen and Newark City Subway is that they are extremely quiet). This would eliminate the vibration nuisance that heavy rail would generate, which would be a legitimate NIMBY complaint.
With a little imagination, the route could be a Penn Station to downtown along the West Side, and I don’t think it would cost a whole load of money.
I still dont get how people hate transit, yet use it if its there. I say send the NIMBY's to SI and make all the transit we need in the city. :P
Its the same with the old LIRR Branch near Metropolitan Ave, the branch is still there, just inactive.
Also, it was the same story with the M&E, and now look.
True, they should question it. But I guess what they see is what they think is gonna be that way for sometime to come. And even if the high line saw at say, 5 trains a day, I doubt they'd get all NIMBY'd out.
There is no huge clamor to have it restarted by the residents who now live there and those are the people who will benefit from it. It makes no sense to provide for the residents a service they don't want just because some people think it would be a nice addition to the transit system. Some people prefer to deal with the inconvenience of having to walk or take a bus or have a car in order not to live near a transit line. You may consider them idiots, but they have the choice to live where they want. If one were to argue in favor of the restoration of the High Line for the purposes of providing RR access downtown, then that changes everything. In that case the line would benefit people other than those living there, in which case it would be worthwhile to pay off the residents in order to placate them; but why placate them against something they don't want and no one else needs?
This is all moot if in fact the people do want a transit line, but money doesn't grow on trees and there are far more important projects.
There were no longer any potential freight customers along the line.
A dinner to benefit the High Line sounds as worthwhile as a dinner to benefit the demise of the 9th Ave EL!
I picked the right day to ride, because they broke out a new batch of tickets, and I got number 1...well, actually 100001.
I photographed Jersey Central Blue Comet observation car "Tempel" from the train while passing through Rio Grande, location of CMSL HQ and yard.
After my round trip I drove to Rio Grande to photograph some of the goodies located there.
Lehigh Valley F7 #576
shot over the fence: Conrail RS-3, PRSL Budd RDC M-410 (1951), Jersey Central GP7 #1523, and PRR GP9 #7000.
storage track across the street
Before I finished, the next southbound train arrived. The conductor flagged the crossing because the gates weren't operating.
I left right away to chase the southbound train to the Cape May Canal bridge for a last photo.
The only other Budd Car on the CMSL that is operable is M-410 and it's currently out of service because it's involved in a lawsuit (as I heard on the MOD trip Saturday, CMSL is suing the owner of a dump truck that drove onto the track and damaged M-410).
Did you hear of any talk concerning extending the line to reach NJ Transit? Were the cars full or just half full? How long did it take to get to Cape May?
The print timetable shows the northern terminus at Tuckahoe and says "coming soon". That's wishful thinking.
The fact that the railroad is running from Cape May Court House to Cape May City was considered wishful thinking 10 years ago, too.
I rode the first train (10 AM), which is usually pretty empty. There were four passengers from Cape May Court House, and six more boarded at Cold Spring.
The 11:00 train back had 8 passengers off the ferry from Delaware who had combination tickets for the ferry, train, and Cold Spring Village. Four more passengers boarded at Cold Spring.
The conductor said that the beautiful weather was killing them; the train does well when it rains and people ride instead of going to the beach.
It took me about 90 minutes to drive to Cape May Court House from Collingswood.
http://news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,10175651%255E2862,00.html
One of the things that was strange in the article was how the restrooms were lit in blue to discourage people from shooting up drugs. Does that make it harder to find a vein?
For a little history of Flinders Street station check out this link.
http://www.museum.vic.gov.au/marvellous/powered/flindersst.asp
And if you're interested in elevators, especially hydraulics, check out the link on the left side of the museum's page.
Should have known it.
When those charlatans were running trains in South London, I don't think they ever cleaned them.
Why do governements around the world fall for these companies (Stagecoach, First, Arriva, Connex) who come sauntering in promising to sort their railways out, and are then nothing but trouble. Is money changing hands in secret?
There's always been a problem with the carriage washer at Hither Green - it certainly used to involve reversal. This gave the effect of trains being filthy at one end and faded by acid at the other.
O.K., it is a little run down - and I share Max's opinion of Connex - but it *is* old, so you can't expect it to be totally pristine. Even in its present state it is a magnificant station, well deserving its heritage status. And the toilets weren't bad, though I too was puzzled by the blue lights.
Here are the teasers:
47 photos in SubwaySpot album.
- #7 the guy in the black t-shirt on the platform with his back to the camera is Lou from Brooklyn ... I was next to him.
- #40 I liked so much I made a copy for myself.
--Mark
See you soon.
Bob
Oh yeah, great pics Bob :) I'm gonna try to make it out next Saturday... let's see if work permits...
Your pal,
Fred
Does anyone know if the CTA will create a new color line for this connection & will there be any changes to the LOOP service.
There is somewhere linked from the CTA website a long-term plan to make a City Circle line combining the State St. Subway with the Paulina connection. To me it would be a great idea. Only a couple of miles of new rail line would need to be built + the Paulina Connection Upgrade.
Silver
...& will there be any changes to the LOOP service.
Yes
Yes. It could be pink, beige, turquoise, cyan, grey or any other colour they don't have yet.
& will there be any changes to the LOOP service.
No. The extra trains would run over the magically reinstated spur to Market and Madison. <sarcasm>
http://www.grayline.20m.com/
A neat concept.
Matt
At least this guy calls a spade a spade - none of this silver line shit, it's grey. Actually, this naming lines after precious metals with some scant resemblance to the colour has got me thinking - London's Circle Line should be renamed the Gold Line to symbolise the scarcity of the service.
How about renaming the Skokie Swift the gold line. ;)
-- Ed Sachs
Instead, Metra rips out the turnstiles on the electric, ignores his suggestion (CATS rated it the top idea for value for money), and shafts the South Side with stations under perpetual renovation. Meanwhile, the CTA can't run enough buses up into the Loop to meet demand -- and the buses have five minute headways in the rush. Makes me wanna go smack some collar county politicians around....
How many rail cars did CTA ordered for this proprosel Grey line?....I'll say about 250.
And will the Grey line traction power be third rail or overhead catenary?
concerning,
Arthur Thomas
You didn't, you just used the UK spelling..... (8-)
And its proberly 3rd rail seeing as how the Skokie Line is being converted to 3rd rail last I heard.
By looking at the proposed CTA map of the possible 22 mile-long Grey line hyperlinked by Tech-35th(Matt), I figure there will be a total of 28 trips during morning and afternoon rush hours base on a 7 or 8 minute headway within a 22 mile-long rail route, each trip with a maximum of eight car trains. I multiply 28 by 8 which is 224, so 224 cars maximum during commute hours and some spare cars stored at the possible future storage yard/maintenance facility for the new Grey line.
For all we know, they can use other cars that are not being used.
True, depending on how many spare cars other existing CTA rail lines have
Arthur Thomas
And come to think of it, wasnt the CTA getting new cars anyways?
Arthur Thomas
There are supposed to get new cars, but they can't seem to get an RFP out, which means it will be awhile. They also want to use AC propulsion, which supposedly makes the signals go haywire. Plus they are tight on money. So--the 2200s will probably easily see 40 before they are fully (or even partially) replaced (which is fine with me since they are my favorite cars).
Also, as mentioned by others, the IC (Metra Electric) is FRA, which means no CTA cars (as currently built). The point of the proposal is to use the Metra Highliners that sit idle all day for the service, since it is pointless and wasteful to have a perfectly good fleet only being used for rush. Metra has already ordered more for replacement, IIRC.
Matt
Matt
However, there was at least one quite serious rear-end collision (Granville Avenue, November 24, 1936) between North Shore's heavy interurbans and CRT wooden cars, in which the latter definitely came out the worse, with ten passenger fatalities. There's a reason for those FRA regulations.
Apropos of the mixed-traffic issue, until thirty years ago the North Side "L" regularly saw movements of steam road freight cars, hauled by CTA steeplecabs. CTA interchanged with the Milwaukee Road at Buena Yard, at surface level between Montrose and Irving Park just west of the elevated structure, to which it was connected by a ramp leading to Track 1 north of Wilson Avenue. Freight customers were strung out along the line as far north as Evanston; the last freight traffic on the line was the Lill Coal Company, which ceased to use rail haulage in 1973.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
NO. Metra us an FRA regulated RR with many connections to mainline freight rrs.
Besides part of the point here is the present operation is essentially a rush hour service which then parks the fleet for midday. The proposal os to return to the service pattern prior to the 1950's when IC Electric Commuter trains ran on 20 min headways midday and were a serious part of mass transit in town. For comparison, imagine Metro North trains making local stops all through the Bronx on the Conn Dot line and a few extra stops on Park Ave with much denser headways
http://community-2.webtv.net/GLRTS/GRAYLINECONVERSION/
http://community-2.webtv.net/GLRT3/GrayLineCoalition/
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
If the fare deal happens, the riders will .
Matt
I just read those websites of Mike Payne about the possible future CTA Grey-line.
I have a question about population density along the In-city Metra Electric Line...
Are the neighborhoods' population along the In-city Metra Electric Line dense as the communities near the Dan Ryan Red branch line or any other CTA rail route? Or are they sprawl, low dense as the suburbs?
concerning,
Arthur Thomas
That density is why CTA express buses run every 5-10 minutes and are packed to the gills. And the Metra trains running every 10 minutes (except midday) are packed too even though there's no transfer to CTA. Add in that the electric has a stop at McCormick Place, one block from the Museum of Science and Industry, and three-five blocks from the U of C campus. It's a lay-up, except that Metra could care less about in-city service or cooperating with the CTA (and gambling on losing some funding to the CTA).
Chicago is ripe for a regional transit setup -- like the German S-Bahn or the French RER. The biggest obstacle though: Metra itself. They just helped kill the creation of a coordinating superagency.
Historically there was such a connection. The Canal Street station on the Metropolitan "L" main was half a block south of the Union Station headhouse, and had a stairway leading down to an underground passageway to the station, along the west side of the tracks. When the "L" was replaced by the Congress Street subway in 1958, the connection became far less convenient, with the Clinton-Congress subway station being two blocks farther south and a block farther west, requiring a two-block walk along Clinton Street to the nearest Union Station entrance, and another block and a half through the station to reach the gates.
LaSalle Street Station (used by New York Central, Rock Island, and Nickel Plate)had the best connection with the "L," having a direct entrance from track level to the mezzanine of the LaSalle-Van Buren station on the Loop. The North Shore Line, which entered Chicago over the "L," took advantage of this to promote itself as a convenient connection to and from north suburban points and Milwaukee for passengers using LaSalle Street; their Eastern Limited in the 1920's was scheduled specifically as a connection for the Century.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
That would be the Ogilvie Transportation Center, which I imagine gets called that by Chicagoans about as often as New Yorkers use the term "Avenue of the Americas." To Chicagoans it will always be North Western Station. It opened in 1911, replacing an earlier North Western Station on the present site of the Merchandise Mart. In 1987, the 1911 headhouse was replaced with the Helmut Jahn's rather impressive Citicorp Center, with quite decent station facilities included. There is also a separate suburban concourse under the tracks a block and a half north of the headhouse, about halfway down the platforms, in the block between Randolph and Washington
In terms of rapid transit connections, the Lake Street (Green) Line crosses over the throat of the station, with the Clinton Street "L" station located just west of the throat. This is three blocks (in a Chicago winter, three long, cold, windy blocks) from North Western Station's main entrance on Madison Street, and a block and a half from the suburban concourse. From 1970 to 1990 there was an enclosed, carpeted, climate-controlled passageway, called the Northwest Passage, at C&NW track level, connecting the suburban concourse to the mezzanine level of the Clinton "L" station. This was not included in the design of the rebuilt Clinton station when it reopened in 1996 after the Green Line renovation.
Until closure of the Market Street "L" spur in 1948, the Market-Madison "L" station was slightly closer than Clinton Street to North Western Station. However, the Market spur had very limited service through most of its life, handling just a handful of rush-hour Lake Street trains to relieve overcrowding on the Loop.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
I meant to post this message under your response(Not busfan).
I think CTA officials should consider Mike Payne's idea of the possible Grey-line concervsion as
part of the future Circle Line Plan project in Downtown Chicago. Before then, CTA could come up
with at least $3 billion to have contract workers modify the current In-city Metra El's tracks and stations
so CTA could place CTA L cars on the possible modified tracks.
But I read on some website that CTA is getting money to renovate and
expand thier existing CTA rapid rail lines.
The collar county politicians are the ones who ensure Metra gets more funding than their due. Metra isn't about to anger them by spending money on the South Side. (For suburbanites, the South Side is still trapped in the gang wars of the '80s.)
The RTA isn't about to force Metra to do anything; hell, they didn't even lift a finger in the Star Line vs. Blue Line Extension debates.
CATS likes the idea, but all they can do is make suggestions about priorities, which are usually ignored.
Just read the controversy over creating a transit superagency. The Grey Line isn't happening soon.
Matt
-- Ed Sachs
Arthur Thomas
http://www.bugmenot.com/view.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.chicagotribune.com
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
How do you push the Illinois legislature to cough up more money?
I think the only way to get good in-city service is for Daley to pull a Meigs Field and seize the in-city lines through some trumped-up eminent domain claim. NYC does things by committee and arguing to compromise; here, an iron fist slammed on the table is more the tradition.
Anywho, the content is that MTA will be running vintage trains at Oct. 28 and 29. Any chance that some of you people already know the schedule?
With my luck, I'll probably miss it both of the days. I missed the last two because I got the information late.
Otherwise let this thread lapse and let it revive later.
These trains will be in regular service, so you will just have to look around and wait!
The Route 10 subway surface line will resume trolley operation on August 1, operating once again out of Elmwood Depot for the time being.
Correct my statements above, if I am off base.
I'm also of the opinion that 15 may have to deadhead out of Elmwood for now until something is resolved.
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
The Route 10 and 15 pull-ins to Callowhill for trolleys: There are switches at Girard to turn right or left onto 60th Street, and then south on 60th to Callowhill St., turning east on Callowhill to 58th St., south on 58th to the back of the depot. That has never been a real problem.
Prior to the mass conversions of the 1950's, Route 15 cars pulling in westbound made a right turn on 58th St. off Girard, straight down 58th St. to the back of the depot.
Chuck Greene
wayne
til next time
I wasn't told the cars #'s so I don't know if the two pictured here are the cars in question.
And from what we were told, IRM is short on *ACF equipment. So it makes sense.
Bill "Newkirk"
* American Car & Foundry
I asked a few people at IRM about the Redbird acquisition when I was there two weeks ago and couldn't get a definitive answer.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
Better than reefing, that's for sure!
--Mark
Now OTOH if you like Chicago's rolling stock, well.......
I wonder which route will they take?
My guess? From Conrail Shared Asset Greenville Docks in Jersey City, west on NS to Pittburgh/Cleveland or Columbus. NS to Chicago, then to IRM?
More like sixty miles northwest.
More likely one of the trucking companies that moves transit rail cars will handle the shipping. Like the outfit that transported the Muni LRVs between Hunt Valley Maryland and San Francisco California.
John
When we got home, we turned on the radio and heard a report that there had been quite an uproar that day, and some of the windows had been broken by the passengers in frustration -- and that was the end of that! But subsequently, door pocket windows and the small window opposite the motorman's cab began to be painted over on all pre-war subway equipment. The reason given at the time was that it was done to save money on window washing, and it was believed that most people never looked out the window on subways, anyway! This statement came from the General Manager, Thomas McLernon, who later went on to Boston and was responsible for creating similar animosity with the union and the riding public. This ultimately caused him to be fired.
Does anybody have any information or photographs of the painted-window debacle?
Whatever happened to that kind of spirit - We might still have railfan windows ;-)
I took an E back to W4th, took an F to Delancey for the J instead of waiting for the A to clear up.
Somewhere around 6 PM or so, a southbound to Far Rock left the station and two friends of mine stated they smelled something electrical burning. I smelled it too and it was an R-44. I didn't take note of the car number, because we didn't know which car was "smoke issuing".
Maybe a coincidence or maybe not.
Bill "Newkirk"
til next time
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
--Mark
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
75' cars RULE!
Adam
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
-Tom
My love for the R44 has to do with only one aspect: the interior seating arrangement. If the R160's had a similar arrangement, I wouldn't shed any tears for these lemons.
-RJM
i'm so glad they switched it to the current way...
-Broadway Buffer
-Broadway Buffer
-Broadway Buffer
Enjoy everyone, I will be back with a min-report of the action.
A great time was had by all. A killer trip. Totally wicked. What more can I say? Riding the gate is an unbelievable experience. I also took about 2.5 hours of video that I hope to make into a DVD at some point. Click the thumbnail above to view the photos. Enjoy my pics!
Chuck Greene
Which reactor are you trying to save?
Here is their website:
http://www.osp.cornell.edu/vpr/ward/mission.html
And here are photos from the rally for which I first wore this t-shirt.
http://www.brianweinberg.com/photos/nukerally/nukerally.html
From another point of view, is Ithaca so crowded that they need to spend that sort of money to construct an office building?
The site is very close to one of the famous gorges. In the years after the reactor was built, they made a law about how close you could build to the edge of the gorge. Since the reactor building is already there, they can make changes to it without being in violation of the law. I guess besides offices down in the cask, they will add stories above ground and those offices will have a very nice view of the gorge.
Matt
Okay...I am used to see it in that setup on the car sides nowadays on the modern equipment these days (such as the slant R-40's). But IMHO, it sure looks out of place on those R-1/9's with their vintage roll signs.
-William A. Padron
["Wash.Hts.-8th Av.Exp."]
http://www.subwayspot.com/gallery/BriansTrainVids
We really didn't have much to say about as the cars had a nice run with plenty of exciting things outside of the trip. There was the poor "mismatched" R32 Q train out again, only this time, a paper Q was on #3776 on the south end. I enjoyed the nice outdoor run on the Brighto line, taking in the breeze from standing on the outside portion of the BU cars. Plenty of shocked and dazed people staring at a 101 year old trainset. Lunch at Brighton Beach was from 1 to 2 as I went home to grab a bite and returned to BB just in time. I tagged ahead with the poor R32 Q train and it was scheduled for lay up when I got to Stillwell. We went up the West end a few times as the last trip around 38th St yard was slow (did they do this on purpose?) as the rain was coming down hard and we were waiting at 9th Ave for the last photos before getting wet and drying off inside. Mark W. joined us at 9th Ave for a R/T to 62nd st and the last run back to 59/C. Two women got on at West 4th St, thinking it was a D train (what else is new?). The trip ended at 5:15 PM and I was happy to ride the cars and went back to Brooklyn for these posts.
List of Subtalkers:
High Street-Brooklyn Bridge
Sir. Ronald of McDonald
David of Broadway
LincolN
The 795
Bombardier
Amanda
Christopher Rivera
Ozzy a.k.a. Da Hui (I don't have time to type your long a** handle)
Thru Express
R32/3
Fred G.
Notch It
Chris SINYR143
Jehuty V2
Sonic McTails
Boriqua
Mark W.
Koi-Public Transit is my Lifeline
SciGuy1904
Slant Man
Ron Dos 728
Q R68 2778
D R68 2532
MOD Excursion Train special (from North motor to south motor as when trip started at 59th CC)
Brooklyn Union 1404
Brooklyn Union 1273
Brooklyn Union 1407
R1 100
R4 401
R7A 1575
R4 484
Q R68A 5029
Q R68 2876
A R44 5219
Q R68A 5160
High Street-Brooklyn Bridge
Sir. Ronald of McDonald
David of Broadway
LincolN
The 795
Bombardier
Amanda
Christopher Rivera
Ozzy a.k.a. Da Hui (I don't have time to type your long a** handle)
Thru Express
R32/3
Fred G.
Notch It
Chris SINYR143
Jehuty V2
Sonic McTails
Boriqua
Mark W.
Koi-Public Transit is my Lifeline
SciGuy1904
Slant Man
Ron Dos 728
Are you forgetting someone?
Chuck Greene
The Sea Beach is postponed to next Sunday, when hopefully the weather will cooperate. (Saturday is back and forth on the J.)
...you know what I mean - with passengers.
The limits on where the BU cars can run with passangers makes these repetitive routes unavoidable.
--Mark
til next time
Sunday will be Sea Beach and Culver, and possibly one of the other lines, since the Culver is cut off from Manhattan at the north end.
At 10:30 PM last Friday night, I was at 34th/6th Ave and went outside for some fresh air and walked to 32/Broadway side, a favorite place for swipers. Seeing this, I secretly took 2 pictures of the swipers in action, then ducked over via. passageway back to Macy's side and summoned 3 officers there. I showed them the pictures, they went over and nearly busted them. Since they didn't see them in the actual transaction, they checked them over and chased them out of the system. Not once did the officers warned me that photography is illegal, they actually thanked me for my efforts to stop swipers from robbing our transit system.
See, as David of Broadway said, cameras ARE useful.
Jimmy
Everyone oughta photograph swipers, and email their photos straight to the MTA... maybe with a little note about their silly phot ban idea at the end...
I want to go 'shoot' me some swipers right now...
David
911 is for serious emergencies, let's not clog up the line with small change. There should be a separate non-emergency number for reporting petty larceny crimes.
Your pal,
Fred
There is, it's called 311.
Peace,
ANDEE
I thought that was more of an information line, not for police matters.
Peace,
ANDEE
David
http://www.mta.info/nyct/safety/index.html#security
For non-emergency situations in a station, the phone number for the nearest NYPD Transit District is posted (though not necessarily on the "unpaid" side of the turnstiles).
David
Your pal,
Fred
Your pal,
Fred
David
Great job David! Hopefully the MTA and the State legislature will realize how silly this photoban idea is, for this reason and many others (not to mention the fact that it won't do a damned thing to improve security).
Great work, David.
Congratulations.
Good going, watson
Hopefully the cops reproduced and shared the phtos with others in the transit bureau. These guys will show up again - but passing transit bureau officers will know who they are.
Regardless, I like what you did and I thank you.
Exactly. If insulin were outlawed tomorrow, diabetics would have (after exhausting whatever reserve they have), only two choices:
(1) die,
or
(2) obtain insulin illegally.
I don't think many would settle for Option 1. And you can bet that those diabetics would pay virtually any price whatsoever to get that insulin, and they'd have to go through some pretty sketchy characters to get to it.
The bottom line is, Outlawing anything only creates a black market, one run by crooks and their crooked mentalities.
There already is a black market for insulin. It can be used in combination with steroids and human growth hormone to produce massive muscle and strength gains. It's also very dangerous when used in that manner, however, and many of the hardcore budybuilders or powerlifters who have no trouble using 'roids and HGH will draw the line with using insulin.
Some or maybe all of the people who were arrested for attacking women at the Puerto Rican Day parade a few years ago were identified through pictures taken by spectators.
And it's been quipped that if the JFK assassination occurred today, there'd be no doubt whatsoever about what happened because it would have been caught on many different home videos.
Ban subway photography, with one exception...if you are photographing a crime being committed. Kinda like the no hand-held cell phones rule, except when calling 911.
Here's the loophole: subway photographers can take pics of each other holding cameras!
Not that I own one.... uhm yeah...
Recursion, anyone?
It makes perfect damn sense to me. It shows that the cop haters on this site can see that not all cops enforce the wrong law.
-Broadway Buffer
BTW, It's already against the law.
-Richard R.
Instead of *banning* photography in the subway, I propose that the MTA not only allows it, but *encourage* it. Although they will never be able to get anywhere near enough people to do this, think about it: If a significant amount of people are walking around taking pictures every which way, terrorists may be discouraged due to the sigificantly greater possibility of being caught on film (or digital media)... It would be like a survailance system on steroids as far as the terrorists would be concerned.
Now, as I said, I know that there is no way that they will get anywhere near enough people to do this, but if anyone can build off the idea, please do.
Might have worked with the old kind of terrorists. As for the new kind, the seem to enjoy being filmed before blowing themselves -- and others -- up.
W Bwy
Love you SWIPER!
Well, don't you?
They're actually more expensive, (Full 2 bucks usually), unless you're using a pay per ride metrocard, without the discount. Then it's a break even deal.
Koi
How about identifying the guys for those of us who've never met you?
Chuck Greene
MY photos are going up in a while.
-Chris
Adam
3549/3348, 3420/3645, 3418/3863, 3831/3382, 3617/3376
Is there anyone on this board who may work at Coney Island Yard, or familiar with car assignments on the Q who can tell my why this is the only trainset of R-32s assigned to the Q, and why is it made up of SO DAMN MANY mis-mated pairs? No one at Stillwell I know knows anything. An oddity that has the Train Man baffled!! (Can't know everything I guess!! More knowledge helps!! :-) )
wayne
Da Hui
Who says you can't go home again?
Here are two shots from today, taken a few hours apart:
Click the thumbnail to view the photo.
Da Hui
David
#3 West End Jeff
All ten of these were origially assigned to Coney Island prior to the arrival of the R40's and R40Ms.
I still have lots of pics of beloved R32 N's.
There was an R32 R train on the Sea Beach express tracks, waiting to get into 59th St - I guess it's a fill in. I've noticed that everyday around 4PM. Sometimes, it just runs light up the local track.
Jonathan
Stand clear of the closing gates, please!
It's you!
How are you gentleman?
Are your base are belong to us!!
You are on the way to destruction.
What you say !!
You have no chance to survive make your time.
Ha Ha Ha Ha ....
It does beg a question though. Comcast gives you legit web space so you don’t have to host your site on your home PC (which they don’t want you to do). Does Road Runner?
By the way, you didn’t answer the reactor question!
Hahahahahaha! Don't they own a store together?
Is that David of Broadway? Or Newkirk Plaza David?
-Chris
The Adverts look new. Are they original or just very good reproductions?
Matt
The side by side shots at Brighton Beach are just wonderful!
--Mark
The justification is that we are railfans and this is what we do, irregardless if we are on a MOD trip or not.
I had a blast on the yesterdays trip.
To actually ride the BU's was a the treats of treats. I cannot wait for next Saturdays trip.
Thank ou again Bill, Tony and the rest of the crew !!
P.S. I didnt get hassled at all re pictures at Stillwell !
What happened? I and a lot of others were at Stillwell after lunch and had no problems.
Your pal,
Fred
Thanks
Jeremy
And by all means spend some time at Howard, where you transfer between the Red Line and the Skokie Swift.
If you're going to be there before August 1, e-mail me.
Clinton on the Green/Lake line is neat as you can see into the CNW/Metra-UP station. Since most of the system is elevated, most spots are good. The Loop has lots of action. High speed runs include South Side Main (Green), the Skokie Swift, the Evanston Express, the Midway (Orange) and the Blue (Congress and O'Hare). Scary combinations of high speeds and bad track are on the Blue Line. Check out IIT on the Green Line and see how the school has dealt with the L.
Another neat trip is to take the bus (I know it's not a train, but...) from Howard to just west of Crawford (IIRC) and watch the transition of power from/to catenary to/from third rail. The CTA no. 97 also goes past the Skokie Shops (which is just north of the Swift ROW and just south of Oakton St.) where there are some old 2000s on display that are painted in Pullman Green and were intended for a Pullman museum. You could also get on the bus at Skokie. Pay attention on the Swift for evidence of stations past. Most just have a platform remnant with a hut or two on it.
Have a great trip and stay safe!
Matt
A good place to watch regular 'L' traffic is Belmont, just south of where the Brown Line branches off from the Red Line. The pedestrian bridge at the south end of the platforms gives a good view looking down the four-track section that the two lines share. If you go there in the afternoon you can easily see three or four trains at once, sometimes even more, on that section. Looking north from the bridge at the other end of the platforms you can watch the Brown Line trains turning left through a level junction.
Parking garages offer great views of Tower 18.
--Mark
Not all of them are in the Loop!
--Mark
I actually found all the CTA employees rather pleasant, and was not hassled at all(I had received a nice(and prompt) email from CTA customer service regarding their photo policy)
Enjoy Chicago, it is one of my favorite systems. Also, if you have time, check out the Science and Industry Museum (#6 bus stops close, just ask the driver to announce the stop when you board, #10 will take you straight there).
Or you could take the Metra Electric south to th 55-56-57 stop and exit at 57th and Lake Park (walk two blocks east).
Finally, to see how NOT to run crosstown bus feeders, you could take the Red Line to Garfield. Cross over to the south side and catch a #55 or #X55, either of which will drop you at the museum entrance. And then you could see the Red Line running *on the expressway* for track work.
I wouldn't advise taking the Green Line to 63rd and Cottage Grove or to Garfield. Those aren't neighborhoods to wander if you don't know them well.
Yeah, you really need two days to see that place. I allowed only one day and spent all my time on the electric stuff: the streetcar loop, the North Shore car on the main line, an operating trolleybus line (I was lucky, they do that only two days per month), and all that stuff in the barns. I just glanced at some of the steam and diesel equipment. Gives me an excuse to go back. :-)
Here are a small handful of the photos i took during the 4 day whirlwind tour of IRM, East Troy RR, and Chicago.
I have not found the 10 to be the most reliable in getting to/from the museum. In the two times I have gone, I have taken a taxi and the 6 for the southbound trip and the 6 once and the 10 once for the northbound trip. The reason I discovered the 6 as an option for the musuem was because after my first visit, the last number 10 of the day failed to show so we were all directed to the 6 stop. Then, on my last visit, while waiting on State Street for the 10, a MAN artic pulled up on the 6, and I decided to ride that instead of waiting for the 10. I did take the 10 back that time, but the tourists on that bus don't move to the back and they all seem to forget how to use the farebox while in the musuem, so as a result, we left many people behind who would have fit in the bus had people moved all the way back, and it took forever to load up as people tried to pay their fares.
South Lakeshore bus routes were realigned this past winter after construction was finished on Lakeshore Drive. The X28 is a real sleeper if you are going against the flow of commuters. But if you are with the flow, it gets crowded since it stops at the Sears Tower.
Ever think maybe the problem is you?
And, since there are plenty of rumors out there about Hyde Park and the neighborhoods around it, I figured he could use a little more guidance. After all, I've seen one or two CTA ads advising people to take the Green Line to the museum -- which is a really bad idea if you don't know Woodlawn. And the CTA won't mention one word about the Metra line -- since the CTA and Metra are competitors.
So no, I wouldn't consider the CTA a 100% authoritative source.
Matt
Robert Taylor Houses B stretched all the way down to 55th and State. You heard about the guy that got yanked from his car and beaten while they torched the car? That was in Woodlawn near where you were SE of campus. Be careful.
Now the University is acquiring large plots of land in Woodlawn; the strategic plan is to spread campus down to 63rd. That's great and all; but, they'll still have to pay out of pocket if they want the L to get extended past Cottage Grove. Woodlawn really shot themselves in the foot on that issue.
Yup. They already had most of the structure ready! I have some friends at U of C that are not very happy about not getting a U-Pass or having an L stop in a safely accessible place. 63rd and Cottage Grove I hear is NOT the place to be and that the U of C and Hyde Park really try to keep people on the correct side of the line by making it very inconvenient to cross over.
I rarely go off campus on foot, and then the destination is usually Bridgeport. I would hate to have been off campus back in the day...it is scary enough now in some places. (On foot) I never go north of 30th (except once to St. James with a group of other students) and I have only been south of 35th once (on State St.), after the projects were removed. I only went to 37th or so. They are building new condos down there! The tract between State and the Rock ROW will be really nice in a few years. East and west of campus seems okay, at least to Indiana as I have never been east of that except going through in a car. West is pretty nice, but there are bad spots. Draper and Kramer is trying to redevelop the shopping center at 35th and Indiana and trying to attract students...but it is a little sketchy getting there. The plaza looks nice enough though. They even had focus groups at school to see what shops we wanted. I've heard it's a little scary down there at night. If I need something at night I usually go to the Jewel at 12th and Wabash or to the Loop. I am never out past midnight or so. Most incidents occur in the wee hours of the night, so the smart thing is (best idea) to not be out that late or (if you really have to) to be with a group in a good area. After seeing what I presume is Woodlawn or Bronzeville, I REALLY watch where I am going.
Matt
FACT: The second time I was returning to the Loop and the #10 did show up, the tourists had trouble using the fare box and using their passes. I witnessed this myself. It is reasonable to wonder how most of these people were able to somehow pay their fare to get to the musuem and somehow couldn't figure it out again to get back.
Nowhere did I say I did not know where I was going or that the CTA staff or website was unhelpful. I simply said if you take the 6 to the museum, ask the driver to announce the stop because you won't know where to get off the bus otherwise. The stop is about a block before the bus passes the museum, and while the bus goes by the museum, there is no stop there. Unless you want to ride the 6 to wherever it ends in South Chicago, ask the driver to call out the stop.
I know where the routes mentioned in this thread go for the most part, I just wasn't aware of the changes because I don't live in Chicago. Perhaps the fact my handle starts with WMATA signifies that.
And I would say most people here are transit-savy yet they have the same right any other paying customer has to complain when expectations aren't met. I just received a 75 dollar travel voucher from Amtrak due to an issue that occurred about 10 days ago and even though Amtrak has financial issues, I do not regret requesting a refund one bit because their level of service was nowhere close to acceptable.
As for the Museum having no 6 stop -so you get off at the next stop and walk back. What's it gonna be like 10 miles? The thing is, I worked for a large NY cab company - I work in a manufacturing plant now - and I know how things can get screwed up. I didn't like it when people got all stressed out over it and I try not to do the same.
I've had some complaints with Amtrak too and also got cash back. So I was satisfied. If you wanna explain, I'd be interested to hear how you managed to pry 75 bucks out of them. Tommy
Where do I complain about the lack of a stop at the museum on the 6? I simply told anyone who wants to use that route to ask the driver because if they miss the stop, I haven't got a clue where the next one is.
I got 75 dollars out of them because it was an Acela Express. I have a corporate discount so I did not pay the full 157 to begin with.
And about the Amtrak refund, I meant what did you complain about? To get the 75 bucks I mean. HeeHee Tommy
The bus that never showed was a 10. We had to take a 6 instead. Hopefully that clears things up.
I got my refund from Amtrak because our Acela had a hot box and could not operate faster than 79 MPH from Crum Lynne, PA to Washington. We arrived 70 minutes late and we were not given the chance to transfer to the Regional which arrived in Washington 30 minutes before we did.
I've gotten refunds from Amtrak twice. The Acela refund you received sounds pretty fair, actually, due to your late arrival. Try asking an airline for money back cause your flight was delayed and I think you'll gain some appreciation for Amtrak.
Anyway, thanks for responding.
I'm hardly one to defend the airlines, but at least they've never called me a liar.
(BTW, you may think you're not one to "defend the airlines" but you just did.)
If critiquing Amtrak is defending the airlines in your eyes, so be it.
Similar to this (from Chicago-l.org):
Hope you enjoyed Chicago! :)
Matt
Also, if you walk over to 14th or 15th Street and Clark you can see the incline from the State Street Subway to the South Side elevated. Not many trains through there though -- since it's not in revenue service. (Not yet.)
I was there a couple weeks ago, on vacation from NY. Really enjoyed it.
You mean the Blue Line (Douglas branch), right? I haven't been out that way in a long time, so it's high on my priority list for my next visit, whenever that is.
And of course the outer end of the Brown Line is also good for that kind of action. A few years ago, I spent part of a morning walking between Kimball (the terminal) and either Rockwell or Francisco, taking pictures of the ground-level crossings and stations. And there's the bridge over the Chicago River, which you can see from a street bridge to the south.
Crossing at Kedzie
Crossing and station at Francisco
Bridge over Chicago River
(bleah... I need to make new scans of those pictures...)
Hey I stayed at the Holiday Inn-Merchandise Mart a couple years ago. The Mart CTA station is one of the nicest. Completely covered with an overhead walkway so you can reverse direction without having to go through the turnstiles again. (I know you know this.)
This time the Internet 'get a discounted downtown hotel room' site I use put me up at one of the hotels on Michigan Avenue near Congress Pky. I could look down on the South Side main line (Green and Orange line trains) from my room! Right where they curve over Harrison Street. Really cool.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/19/technology/19patent.html
What prize do they win - a box of Depends?
PS: Not that there should not be good escape pathways from a 3-storey building. Fire is still a real hazard and the local fire codes I’m sure are appropriately worded.
Maybe the goal is to help Darwin: people who assume a parachute can open in 30 feet deserve their hard landing.
-Robert King
And there's loads of people here who watch out their windows nervously waiting for a plane to hit at any moment. Our media's done a yeoman job of convincing farmers that their cows could explode at any moment, Dave Barry columns notwithstanding. Mass hysteria is alive and well and is now a political tool. Used to me mass hysteria only applied to UFO sightings, but now we've got republicans. :-\
1 - Canon EF camera body.
1 - Canon 50mm/f1.4 FD mount lens.
1 - Canon 35mm/f2.0 FD mount lens.
5 - 36 exposure Kodachrome 64 films.
How about that?
-Robert King
This next picture is from an IRT fantrip back in the '90s. Another unexpected occasion:
Thank goodness I am always armed with a camera, because this opportunity was totally unexpected.
I hope these pictures will post-I have been having a lot of trouble with transitgallery.com lately-and yes, I did a preview before posting.
Enjoy.
That Lo-V shot makes me want to demand a Lo-V fantrip: at least 1 before the guaranteed run on October 27th...
Word is that they are having a load of problems.
Non-profits are not exactly a conflict of interest with a public authority under the law - I was actually surprised to see that BMTman (A TA employee) wasn't running the Gate Cars ... he's got FAR more experience on them than anyone in C division, and I note also that our head of car equipment at Branford was involved in getting the BU's to roll on Funky Electric out in the Rockaways.
Us "old timers" could be a BIG help if only the MTA didn't have rectal-cranial intercession. I'd be HAPPY to do a round trip or two on the arnines again. Hell, I'd do it for FREE. There's NO excuse for the LoV's not rolling - there's STILL people who do that. They're just not on the property anymore it would seem. :(
I managed to spot BMTMan at the meet-up for last Saturday's trip: at most, he was just snapping photos. :(
I suppose my OWN malfunction is that I would have liked SO much to be there, but am flat broke and probably won't get to see ANY of these. At the same time, there's museums that are NOT run by Paturkey's wife that have the ACTUAL goods (no lowered roof on the BU's as one example) in pristine condition, have volunteers and experts who could be of help if arrangements were there, and perhaps if this shindig were of significance, arrangements could have been made to borrow and fix up for example SEASHORE'S *original* IRT car that was actually THERE on opening day, roofwork for Branford's HI-V in exchange for an appearance ... so much else.
Don't get me wrong, I'm EMININENTLY grateful that there's anything at all - but THIS year belongs to the IRT (I'm a died in the wool IND boy myself and won't be AROUND for its hundredth) and it's truly sad to hear that there could be a crimp in celebrating the ACTUAL event that's up this year. But I'm still glad to see everything else is coming back to life. However, to ME, the LoV's are front and center the "showpiece" ... at least THIS year. :(
Just got his layout back together and running in his new digs too.
If there WERE interest, there's many ways of working it out.
They are inside the main facility at Coney Island Maintenance.
What KIND of problems are there? Frozen axles? There's a wheel shop. Motors? The old ones are far easier to work on than the newer ones. And there are places that specialize in fast rebuilds of complete truck assemblies. From what I've seen, the rebuild of the trucks for the Johnstown car at Kingston was a spectacular success. It's not like any of this endangers normal union positions and activities. But of all the things to get rolling *this* year, the LoV's would have been the primary objective I'd think. I'm STILL very pleased to see that all of the others are out there now - not denigrating that in any way - however, the IRT is the "star" this year and I'm a bit disappointed to hear that they're having "problems."
MTA has the CREAM of the crop - there's no other car shop anywhere that can hold a candle to it. But my point is that there are OTHERS on the outside who would be only too happy to help make this all come together. If only we were asked. :(
Only the ones that were in the Museum originally(R12, R15, etc) will be returned to the museum.
What!? Booo! They should make more room or something. Get some of those cars that need some work on 'em done or something and place the rest of those cars there.
Even if those cars are converted, keep the livery so at least you have something... When those SMEE's run again, we should have the full 10-car monty!
It is a shame that not one of those cars were preserved.
http://www.bera.org/articles/Gtrip.html
Alas, there are no composites or MUDC's that I'm aware of in either display or running condition anywhere ...
They also have the sole surviving New York Railways trolley - later sold to TARS, then SDERy.
Neither are running right now, but both are essentially complete and in dry weather and indoors.
The triplexes (D-Types) ran for a MOD trip this past September:
http://lisa.subway.com.ru/09282003mod/
I surmised, after perusing this site, that there were mass scrappings of Lo-Vs from '65 to as late as '67. (long after the last revenue run in '65) It's too bad no one had the forsight to save two ten car sets; and build up an inventory of parts from several dozen of others. I don't know what the costs would've been, but after all, they're one of the originals. We wouldn't have this problem today.
As far as revenue service goes, the last time the Low-Vs operated in revenue service was in 1969 on what was left of the 3rd Ave El.
I forgot about that line. It's funny because it was definitely on my railfanning itinerary back in the 60's (after school of course). I lost interest in it after the Lo-Vs were replaced by the R-14s. BTW 1969 was also the year the last of the Canarsie BMT Standards were placed on the scrap line, which was the unused express tracks on the Sea Beach. It stretched for about five or six stations.
Ditto for the old pre contract Myrtle Ave El. I just barely remember seeing that rickety structure, and the Qs, while walking on Hoyt St., shopping at A&S etc. with my parents when I was a 6,7 year old trainbuff. The only thing I didn't like about the Qs was that canvas roof I was to notice years later. (We all know why *that* was necessary). :^(
The BRT did use the Chestnut St. incline to go to Rockaway Park. Must have been an interesting ride riding wooden "el" cars leaving the "el" and using LIRR trackage though the marshland out to Rockaway Park.
Bill "Newkirk"
There is a couple of other nostalgia cars coming out this week-end too.
That's right at the Branford Trolley Museum. Tentativly scheduled is our Arnine and our Red Bird. The Be-A-Motorman program will be repeated plus we'll be running a selection of trolley cars for your riding pleasure. Take an extra day off & make it into a 3 day week-end. Connecticut has a lot of things to see & do. I believe the New Britain Rock Cats baseball team is in town (heard a lot of radio adv. on the Hartford station this past week-end).
The 45-day discussion period hasn't even begun. It sounds almost as if the MTA isn't too interested in pursuing the matter. We can only hope.
Do nothing, pyth away the money, do MORE nothing and get re-elected. :(
Well, they found they can get their employees and the NYPD to enforce it even without it being a rule. THAT's more likely why they aren't "pursuing" it. :-/
Just a thought.
Saddam Hussein would be proud of us right now - I can see him smiling, in a dark, smelly, damp prison cell in some godforsaken hellhole...
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
NYCSS=New York City Subway System.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
What? Stop trying to be cool. There's nothing wrong with conforming to society.
NYCSS=New York City Subway System.
No, it stands for "ben diamond Needs Your Caring Social Services."
For the comment period to start, the MTA has to publish a “notice of rulemaking” in The New York State Register. Watch this space.
I’m wondering, since it’s been a couple of months, whether the MTA has decided to let the photoban proposal die a quiet death (“Still under consideration…”) as the reaction to it has been generally so negative.
A week ago Sunday, I was waiting for a photo at Ditmas when a cop walked onto the platform, which was largely deserted. We exchanged pleasantries, he asked me if everything was okay, I said yes, and he went back downstairs. My guess is that a T/O or C/R called me in (I had been hanging out on the Culver line for a while -- first at Avenue N as one train bypassed the station and another one stopped, and then at Ditmas) and the cop came to investigate. Seeing that I was obviously a harmless hobbyist, he left me alone without further ado.
In other words, he did exactly what he was supposed to do.
Too bad some of them feel obligated to make up rules as they go.
Here's the photo I was after, BTW:
I'll have to try that again when the sun is more cooperative.
R-32.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
R-32.
R-32.
R-32.
Drop me a line if you want to help out with the next protest... janastasio ( at ) earthlink.net
Certainly the harrassment is unacceptable, but photographers need to get the shoe on the other foot. Collect badge numbers, ostentatiously write them down (They have to give them to you) and then follow up with a letter of complaint and don’t let the matter drop. Make the path of least resistance be letting photographers alone.
Completely true! If you have a complaint, file one with the CCRB (Civilian Complaint Review Board. You could also file a complaint with Internal Affairs (but that's usually for more serious matters). I actually spoke to an Assistant District Attorney today about the issue (I'm working at the New York County DA's office this summer.) We had a lecture today on laws governing police action. Basically, the police have the right to question you. They cannot frisk you, forcibly stop you, arrest you, or issue you a summons for taking photographs in a non-restricted area pursuant to MTA NYCT rules. Please note: If the police question you, answer them! Don't ask "Why are you questioning me?" They have the right to be suspicious of you and have the right to question you. If for some strange reason you receive a summons, it will be thrown away in TAB court, because no law or rule exists (at the moment) that makes photography illegal. If you are issued a summons or if the police officer(s) go beyond questioning you, I urge you to file a complaint with the CCRB (obviously after the summons has already been thrown out.)
I've also been hearing stories here about Police Officers telling people that they should delete the photos from their digital cameras. The ADA I spoke to today said that saying that is beyond the scope of questioning. They certainly don't have the right to force you to delete the photos. But if they say it and leave you alone about it after, just ignore it; the CCRB probably wouldn't even consider it unless you received a summons.
~R142A
Hell a cop in Teaneck shot a kid IN THE BACK WHO WAS RUNNING AWAY FROM HIM. No harm (I guess on dead kid is no real problem) no foul.
the point is not to get there in the first place. i can't miss half a day of work just because some egotistical cop wants to write me a bum ticket and drag me to court.
Assume that if you're being questioned, that they're suspicious of you. From there, it's really entirely out of your hands. If you're pleasant, there will be more of a tendency to drop the matter; if you're not, there will be more of a tendency to pursue it, and you may even get yourself into some real trouble. Sure, ideally, nobody would be suspicious of photographers, but that's not a matter that's up for discussion between you and the cop who's pinpointed you. It's more of a policy matter, and I think that's what Joe's protests are about.
Besides, when more bogus summonses kicked out by TAB, there's more evidence that there's a targeting/harassment problem, and the more likely it will be that the problem will be solved. If you're interested in addressing the matter of the policy of targeting or harassment, you can begin by doing what R142 suggested: contact the NYPD. I would also suggest contacting MTA/NYCTA.
Don't ged mad - get even.
The first thing they expect you do if you apply to become a cop is the remember details like names, date, time, badge number even just from memory. It's really not that hard to concentrate and commit it to memory at least long enough for you to later write it down.
The trick is to not get upset or distracted if approached by a cop. Just answer their questiong, be reasonable, and leave. Write it all down and file the complaint afterwards. Clutter the system with complaints, and they'll eventually get the idea (or so I hope): it's not worth hassling people with cameras, because they're doing nothing wrong.
Mark
Mark
More PHOTOS here. Enjoy!
Your pal,
Fred
I am VERY jealous!!!
I took the ferry to Harborside instead.
Anyone know why or for how long PATH service was shut down?
See the BBC, the Scotsman, and ic South London.
But if Crossrail cannot open before 2013, as predicted, it won't help with the 2012 Olympic bid.
At least we will have a vaguely useful product at the end of this, unlike the Millennium Dome.
For that money I would want something really useful; they could cut costs by dropping the more controversial branches.
I have never seen any mention of a public inquiry, but project should be subject to due process (like Thameslink 2000).
There has been some public consultation, but there is less to object to with this project compared with Thameslink, where conservation nuts are up in arms over the plans for Bermondsey.
The core Crossrail route, the expensive part is not disputed, so at least that will be built. Branches will be easier to modify, both during building and afterwards, but I am concerned that doing Crossrail first will suck money away from cheaper, more sensible projects for a long time to come.
"Government set to back London "Crossrail"
Tue 20 July, 2004 03:47
LONDON (Reuters) - The government is expected to give conditional backing today for a long-mooted plan to link the east and west of London with an underground railway.
Transport Secretary Alistair Darling will make the announcement about "Crossrail" to parliament, government sources said, as part of his five-year plan for transport.
He is expected to seek a large chunk of the overall funding from the private sector.
Last year, Darling said if it went ahead, London companies would have to make a big contribution to fund the underground railway, which is estimated to cost 10 billion pounds.
Officials confirmed the broad thrust of the story but one said a Times report on Monday that said the line would be completed in time for the 2012 Olympics should be "treated with caution".
The project is seen as a vital component of London's bid to host the 2012 Olympics but experts say it is highly unlikely to be completed by then.
The government has long supported the project in principle but insisted the cost could not be met solely, or even largely, by taxpayers.
Ministers have been consulting with business about the scheme.
Companies in the City of London, the capital's financial heart, have warned they will not remain based there indefinitely without drastic improvement in transport links.
The plan, mooted for years by different administrations, was shelved by the previous Conservative government in 1996."
Hopefully by taxing the buggers.
Officials confirmed the broad thrust of the story but one said a Times report on Monday that said the line would be completed in time for the 2012 Olympics should be "treated with caution".
The project is seen as a vital component of London's bid to host the 2012 Olympics but experts say it is highly unlikely to be completed by then.
It could quite easily. You pass an Act of Parliament (which a railway needs anyway), using procedural devices such as guillotine motions to rush it through (time required: one day). Then you use the powers granted by Parliament to get on with building it.
That is precisely what the present announcement says they are now going to do. That's the easy bit, given the government's large parliamentary majority, and the fact that no-one is rally *against* Crossrail in principle - they are just against paying for it!
Finding the money cames next. That's the hard bit.
Okay, we need Ł10bn. Put as terms of the Act that the following companies must contribute Ł1bn, or they will be nationalised without compensation (in fact, that would probably make it a money bill, meaning that the Lords couldn't vote it down):
- Abbey National
- GATX Capital
- Halifax Bank
- HSBC
- Lombard
- Royal Bank of Scotland
- ARRIVA
- FirstGroup
- National Express
- Stagecoach
BTW why is your list of banks selective. Not sure I want RBS to start charging me Ł1 per cashpoint transaction!
Listen to all the Americans go "awww too bad".
(More or less, if you use a cash machine that doesn't belong to your bank, you pay two fees-- one assessed by the bank you used, and one by your bank for using some other bank-- often $1.50 each. It's not always that easy to find a machine by your own bank particularly if you use a small one or have traveled out of your region.)
I find it particularly annoying that the fees are flat rates rather than percentages. A $2 fee on a $20 withdrawal is quite steep indeed.
They are the ones who are screwing money out of the railways, mainly by controlling the supply of rolling stock (and its economic implications).
That might encourage Decentralisation and, maybe, obviate the need for Crossrail !
Presumably Crossrail would not be able to absorb LTS service in addition to both the Shenfield and Ebbsfleet services proposed--you could save another nice chunk of change by getting rid of the latter, with its longer tunnel section and new river crossing...
Actually, even now one can get from the Shenfield line to Heathrow entirely woth cross-platform transfers (at Stratford from the Shenfield commuter trains to the Central Line, then at Mile End to the Distrct Line, then at Hammersmith to the Piccadilly Line), but not many people know that, in all probability. Crossrail will do it on one train, and much faster. And the existing Thameslink service gets you from Bedford to Brighton on one train (I did that journey a couple of weeks ago), but it's slow, especially on the tortuous section between Blackfriars and London Bridge. Thameslink 2000 will facilitate more different north-south direct services, with treble the present capacity on the cross-London section.
Like many other UK railfans, I think they should get Paddington-Stratford built first, and start the Heathrow-Shenfield service, and worry about other branches later. Thameslink 200 should take priotiy over Crossrail phase 2.
Incidentally, construction of the existing Thameslink enabled BR to close Holborn Viaduct terminus, replacing it with City Thameslink, a through, underground station which is the prototype for future Thameslink 2000 stations. A new office block stands on the site of Holborn Viaduct station (as at Broad Street).
It isn't actually necessary to close down a railway terminus in order to make money from redevelopment of its site, of course - you can sell the air rights above the station. That happened at Charing Cross, which has an office block above it now.
One of the reasons for getting rid of the Holborn Viaduct, as far as I understand, was that it was a viaduct and removing the ROW allowed some road improvement projects that the old bridges prevented.
Nope. Holborn Viaduct is the name of the *street* that Holborn Viaduct station stood in; it's essentially a bridge that carries the continuation of the street called High Holborn over another street (Farringdon Road, maybe - I'm not sure and I don't have my A-Z map handy) running at right angles to it at a lower level. Holborn Viaduct is a *road* viaduct, not a *railway* viaduct, and it wasn't removed, it's still there.
However, it is true that the railway (the ex-Metropolitan Railway Snow Hill tunnel line, now Thameslink) has in part been lowered to eliminate a bridge carrying it over Ludgate Hill. The result is a very steep gradient (up, southbound) from the underground City Thameslink station to Blackfriars station, whose platforms are well above street level. City Thameslink station, incidentally, has twelve-car length platforms with entrances at each end. Thameslink trains (which are either four or eight cars), stop, both north- and south-bound, at the southern end, where the entrance is from Ludgate Hill. The northern entrance is from Holborn Viaduct, in the bottom of the office building that has replaced Holborn Viaduct station, but if you use that entrance you then have a long walk along the platform to your train, especially if it's a four-car one.
If Thameslink 2000 (which should now be renamed Thameslink 2020!) gets built, the idea is that its stations would be 12-car length, to increase the capacity of the line. City Thameslink was the prototype Thameslink 2000 station. I assume the new St Pancras Thameslink (or whatever they end up calling it) station now being built underneath St Pancras main line station, to replace the inadequate Kings Cross Thameslink station, will be of a similar design and twelve cars long. Kings Cross Thameslink station (which is more or less on the site of the original Kings Cross Metropolitan Line station of 1863) cannot be extended. Its platforms are very narrow, as well as being only eight cars long.
I really must get back there and see what has changed. I watched them rebuild the Snow Hill connections from the Circle Line around Farrindgon, but have never gone through the tunnel there!
That's been a while, then - the Thameslink trains have been running through since the early 1990s. It would be worth a trip next time you are in London - though a railfan window would make it even better, of course. Just south of Farringdon station there are some underground sidings (the old Smithfield Goods Yard, I think) where South East stable some trains between the peaks. One or two South East trains terminate at City Thameslink in the rush hour, as a sop to the former users of Holborn Viaduct station maybe, and then run into those sidings. (The rest of the day, the Catford Loop trains end in the terminus platforms at Blackfriars.) Then you see the rather boring face of things to come, City Thameslink station, which is curiously dimly lit (deliberately I assume), before tackling the mountain climb up to Blackfriars. I think it is odd that they made the southern entrance of City Thameslink the main one, as it is *very* close to Blackfriars; as City Thameslink is the replacement for Holborn Viaduct station, it might have more logical for the entrance on Holborn Viaduct to be the major one.
Time to go back on my next England visit!
If only there were a way of closing Euston... I'd cheer that on!!!
I guess it would be nice to have a one seat ride from Birmingham Snow Hill to Oxford Circus, but I don't see it happening, as there is no way they'd electrify all the way from London to Kidderminster. If that didn't happen, then there would be no easy way of closing Marylebone.
I agree that the Kingston line is very silly. It's not even what Kingston needs - that would be trams along the A240 and A243 corridors.
They are trying to increase capacity, not merely to replace it.
The trains that currently use Cannon Street and Fenchurch Street would still run and need somewhere to terminate.
Crossrail would not replace trains from Fenchurch Street to Tilbury and Southend, and Fenchurch Street station (which has 20 tph peak on 4 platforms) would still be needed. The option to have a Crossrail branch go that way was rejected.
Thameslink 2000 would not replace trains from Cannon Street to the south east; peak tph would be reduced slightly (to 21 tph), but Cannon Street would still be needed as a terminus. Charing Cross, the other terminus, would remain at capacity.
Ebbsfleet services proposed--you could save another nice chunk of change by getting rid of the latter
The Crossrail branch to Ebbsfleet is supposed to serve the "Thames Gateway" a marshland area under development.
The following is today's report from Reuters:
Government unveils London "Crossrail"
Tue 20 July, 2004 13:13
LONDON (Reuters) - The government has backed a long-mooted plan to link east and west London with an underground railway -- the Crossrail project -- but say funding remained to be sorted out.
"I am now confident that Crossrail should proceed although a major funding challenge remains," Transport Secretary Alistair Darling said on Tuesday, as he unveiled a five-year plan for transport.
Darling told parliament a bill would be introduced "at the earliest opportunity" to establish the powers needed for the construction of the rail link, the cost of which he confirmed as 10 billion pounds.
The government has long supported the project in principle but insisted the cost could not be met solely, or even largely, by taxpayers.
Ministers have been consulting with business about the scheme.
"Government will need to work with the Mayor and the London business community to find a funding solution where everyone pays their fair share," Darling said.
Companies in the City of London, the capital's financial heart, have said they will not remain there indefinitely without drastic improvement in transport links.
Crossrail was seen as a vital component of London's bid to host the 2012 Olympics but experts say it is highly unlikely to be completed by then.
Darling said he would find an additional 340 million pounds of government money for London's creaking transport network to add to the 2.9 billion pounds borrowing plan up to 2010, of the Transport for London body.
"Transport will be crucial to a successful British bid for the 2012 Olympics," Darling said.
It looks like the current government is reasonably serious about dealing with congestion!
"Crossrail was first mooted decades ago, and a hybrid bill, like the one announced today, was even introduced into the Commons under John Major, but failed to progress on "value for money". "
The government is still doubtful about the route of the western branches, so the project is at an early stage!
The National road congestion charge would be based on GPS, which didn't exist when I first heard the idea, long ago.
It says "up to 134 pence" per mile, which wouldn't amount to much if you were moving slowly or stuck in a traffic jam.
It's one which is a mix between being a private bill and a public one. For fuller explanation click here.
"Financial support from the London business community for Crossrail is not enough to close the funding gap for the Ł10bn project, according to Alistair Darling.
But in announcing a Crossrail parliamentary bill, the transport secretary, who gave in-principle backing for the east-west London link a year ago, said he was "now confident" it should proceed.
Although a previous bill in the 1990s failed through concerted opposition and ministerial indifference, Tuesday's announcement represents the most significant step forward for an ambitious scheme that has been dogged by delay and lack of government commitment and eaten up Ł300m in feasibility studies."
And after all those studies, Transport Minister Darling disagrees with the one of the routes that the line would take!
I note that the road pricing question is continuing to evolve. It will be interesting to see what congestion pricing on the roads will do to improve quality and quantity of public transportation!
- Rebuild the junctions at either end of Earl's Court station. Actually, not that much needs doing to vastly increase capacity. The total modifications at the Eastern end are an extra track FROM Gloucester Rd TO Earl's Court, entering Earl's Court at the southern end of the formation, and a crossover to allow trains from Hi Ken to use either westbound track (allowing one track to become Main only and the other Wimbledon only). A similar (but slightly trickier) job can be done at the western end.
- Rebuild the extra tracks from South Kensington to Gloucester Rd.
- Adjust the configuration at Hi Ken so that the western pair of tracks become through and the eastern pair terminal (for a Hi - South shuttle replacing the Circle).
- Lengthen platforms on the western part of the Circle (and to Hammersmith) to take 7 car trains.
- Close Aldgate station and remove the tracks.
- Build a lower level at Aldgate East, accessible from both the Met and the District. The line should continue from here via Canary Wharf to somewhere South of the River.
- Build a spur from the District at Monument to take over the Shenfield commuter service (to be re-electrified as 4th Rail DC). There should be three platforming tracks on the branch at Monument to allow extra rush hour trains to run without limiting capacity on the other branches.
I'll get round to drawing some sort of map of all this soon...
What you are proposing is a sub-surface line roughly equivalent to the eastern part of Crossrail. That seems a good idea, as nobody can decide where the western branches should go and (we have agreed before) they are relatively useless.
I can see the point of increasing the capacity of the District line somewhat, separating it from the Metropolitan, and extending one or other to Canary Wharf and beyond. But I don't quite understand your line from Monument to Shenfield.
If it's part of the District line, which would be useful, would it go through Aldgate East, and where would it come to the surface? I don't think you can build cut-and-cover in the City because of existing infrastructure (bank vaults).
If it's part of the District line, which would be useful, would it go through Aldgate East, and where would it come to the surface? I don't think you can build cut-and-cover in the City because of existing infrastructure (bank vaults).
It would be cut-and-cover along Bishopsgate. It would dive under the Met at Liverpool St, then rise to the surface before Bethnal Green.
If we're talking about things which require an Act of Parliament, the demolition of whatever parts of vaults may be under the public highway is a relatively small matter.
I've drawn a few diagrams of my capacity improving suggestions. I'm unlikely to be able to put them up online until I'm next in Leicester, but if you (or anyone else) would like a copy, then I will e-mail them.
Thanks R.B. I get the general idea now, and I look forward to seeing the plans when you have time to put them online.
People in north west England are angry about Crossrail, because Manchester's Metrolink tramway extension is canceled.
From Manchester Online:
Founder of Factory Records and Granada Reports presenter Tony Wilson said: "It's an absolute disgrace. I think it is absolutely outrageous to think that London is to get its Crossrail but we get nothing. It's no wonder that the government made this decision because they don't understand that the rest of the country has needs. The Metrolink is the greatest thing that has ever happened in the north west and its extension should have been automatic. This decision is shocking but it just shows why we need a regional government."
Cities seek to save tram plans — By Angela Jameson, Industrial Correspondent
COUNCIL leaders in two of the UK’s largest cities are pressing ahead with plans to build tram systems, in the face of Alistair Darling’s announcement last week that the light rail schemes were unacceptable because of soaring costs.
Manchester and Leeds city councillors are incensed that their tram schemes have been scrapped, particularly when the Government has sounded approval for Crossrail — a much more expensive, but London-based, transport project.
I see a couple of reasons for this. One is the fact that transport was taken out of John Prescott's bailiwick (remember Prescott was actually a sponsored candidate of the Rail, Maritime and Transport union) and given to Darling, who is basically a Treasury-minded type. The other is that the civil servants in the Dept of Transoport are notoriously pro-road and have never liked giving rail an level playing field; seeing a less determined minister take over, they took the opportunity to shift "departmental policy" back to the norm.
The Kingston branch has been deleted. All stations from Paddington to Maidenhead are now shown.
Also new photos on SubwaySpot and BusSpot:
New
R-32, 38, 44, 46, 68, 68a, RTS, Orion V, Orion VII, and C40lf photos.
Your pal,
Whoever
-Chris
-Broadway Buffer
I PLEAD THE FIFTH...!!!!
;-D
Crazy me, I thought everyone should be encouraged and welcomed to railfan....
They're carrying cameras, aren't they? Isn't that a felony yet?
Your pal,
Fred
I don't know if people actually check these links out when i post them, but i know that they might bring some enjoyment. So here it is, a video of the old third avenue el. The style reminds me of Stations of the Elevated a little bit. Enjoy:
This text allows you to view a video of the third avenue el.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Enjoy them!
-Chris
I recognize Ozzy, Lincoln, Jehuty and Bombardier...but who are the others?
-Chris
Your pal,
Fred
-Chris
Chuck Greene
Semper Paratus
Charles
-Chris
And just because I pointed fingers, doesn't necessarily mean I or NewKirk Plaza David did it. You have no proof of that. Therefore, you don't like punks who point fingers yet you are doing it yourself. And have done it in the past.
I'm not on good terms with Newkirk Plaza David, but I think I can say on his half that he just reported it and was not trying to point fingers at anyone.
I reported it, because a large interest was made in it when Newkirk Plaza David reported it twice.
I won't tell you whether or not I'm the one who did it, because you don't deserve to know because of other things you've said to me in the past. I guess you'll just have to catch me in the act...But wait, you don't know what I look like! LOL!!!!! Too bad for you :-( LOL!
-Broadway Buffer
Maybe it is something in my drink. My refridge just went on the blink and some stuff went bad. Must be the lemon juice is stale in my iced tea.
-Broadway Buffer
-Broadway Buffer
tell that to the flusher.
I saw a G train with a hat...
...A rocketing Arnine...
A cop with a way gone photo vest...
and, best of all, some 101 year old elevated cars...
There are more PHOTOS here. Enjoy!
Your pal,
Fred
Your pal,
Fred
All they have to do now is clear it and completely knock down the concrete platform... Of course, they'll also tear down the structure holding the entire platform and rebuild as with the other three platforms. It should be interesting.
Posted on:7/19/04 3:51:57 PM
Due to a fire in the vicinity of White Plains Road and Allerton Avenue, there is no (2) service in either direction between East 180th St and Gunhill Road until further notice.
Can anyone confirm?...ny1, 1010wins and Panynj are all silent on it.
Only the Newark to WTC trains are 8 cars. The Journal Sq and Hoboken trains are 7 cars.
SAS
R-32.
CG
Here's an example.
I wonder how that woman who suffered a serious head injury is doing?
She's probably called 1-800-MARGARITA already
David
But I coulda sworn the radio said (F), and not PATH. But I might have misheard.
Peace,
ANDEE
It was a hazy, somewhat rainy day...
But the Brooklyn Union cars and IND museum cars decided to come out and play. After splitting up and having a good run down the Brighton line, they got back together and decided to take a rest at Brighton Beach. Brooklyn Union Car 1404 decided to pose for some pictures - isn't she gorgeous? But of course, the inner beauty counts as much as the outer beauty. Just how does she stay so young and fresh-looking? Some sunshine and plenty of sleep in 207th St. Yard's barn.
Meanwhile, back at the ranch...
The D-types were grounded and depressed that they, too, couldn't go out and play. If they had stayed in the barn, they would have realized they weren't alone: an R-15, an R-17, and an R-33 were left behind, also. One R-110B was in so much trouble that he was stripped of his destination rollsign. An R-38 was sent to the psychiatric ward because, apparently, he was having an identity crisis (can you believe he thought he was a K train?) There was also a pair of R-62As who felt a little dizzy, so they decided to call in sick and go to the infirmary. The museum cars came back and joined their friends early in the evening.
So ends a day in the busy lives of subway cars.
Your pal,
Fred
til next time
!
I'll tell ya, my dreams have definitely helped my imagination and creative writing...
I never know whether it's a good thing to admit to having the miniscule amount of intelligence required to follow a couple of links and digest the content...
I'll tell ya, my dreams have definitely helped my imagination and creative writing...
Craziness and creativity rather go hand in hand.
Why? So we know that you have >3 braincells compared with <2 for the average politician? James, we know you better than that!
Craziness and creativity rather go hand in hand.
Absolutely! My pet rock and I just had a discussion about this last week…J
Ho ho hey hey! Any souvenirs? :)
City sues CSX in '01 derailment
Action claims railroad is responsible for accident; $10 million sought to cover costs; Vigorous defense vowed; NTSB probe still not done
By Laura Vozzella
Sun Staff
July 16, 2004, 1:22 PM EDT
The city of Baltimore filed a lawsuit against CSX Corp. today, claiming that the railroad was responsible for the July 18, 2001, derailment of a chemical-bearing train that burned for five days under downtown streets, closed businesses and disrupted baseball games.
The suit will seek $10 million to cover the cost of fighting the fire, repairing a broken water main and otherwise responding to the emergency, on top of the $374,000 CSX has paid.
"It was one of the largest city emergencies the city has seen in a long time," Mayor Martin O'Malley said Friday. O'Malley said CSX had only reimbursed the city $350,000 toward those costs.
Misty Skipper, a spokeswoman for CSX said the Jacksonville, Fla. company will review the complaint and defend itself vigorously.
"We will review these complaints and plan to defend them vigorously," Skipper said. "In the meantime, we continue to work with the National Transportation Safety Board in its investigation of the derailment and fire that occurred in the Howard Street Tunnel on July 18, 2001."
The suit is one of several filed in recent weeks against CSX and, in some cases, the city, as the three-year statute of limitations for claims related to the disaster nears. Because the third anniversary of the crash is Sunday, the deadline is Monday.
The suit comes before the National Transportation Safety Board has completed its investigation. The inquiry, not expected to be completed for months, might never determine what caused the derailment because evidence was consumed in the fire, experts have said.
The city contends that the train derailment sparked a fire that caused a water main behind the tunnel wall to burst, flooding streets and buildings and knocking out electrical and telecommunications systems. CSX says it was the other way around, with the water main break causing the derailment.
In a preliminary report released last July, the NTSB described "chronic water infiltration" in the tunnel that loosened bricks and mortar and could have contributed to the crash.
"To date, we have not seen evidence of a rail-related cause of the derailment," Skipper said.
In its lawsuit, the city intends to provide records of water flow in the reservoir feeding the Howard Street water main. The records show that the flow held steady at about 10 million gallons an hour in the first hours after the 3:07 p.m. derailment. About 6:30 p.m., the flow shot up to about 17 million gallons.
This week, the insurance companies for Oriole Park at Camden Yards and the Maryland Institute College of Art filed a lawsuit in Circuit Court.
The Orioles, which had to cancel several games, lost more than $1 million in ticket and concession sales, while the school suffered water, smoke and other property damage amounting to more than $100,000, the suit says. The Hartford Casualty Insurance Co. and the Hartford Insurance Co. of the Midwest are suing CSX and the city to recoup payments made to the team and art school to cover those losses.
The lawsuit blames CSX's "negligent and careless" maintenance of its tracks and trains, and the city's "negligent and careless" maintenance of its water system.
The Associated Press contributed to this report.
Copyright © 2004, The Baltimore Sun
As Parks Squabble, Train's Fate Dims
By MIKE BRANOM
The Associated Press
ORLANDO - There always has been fighting between Mickey Mouse, Shamu the killer whale and Universal's superheroes over tourists' dollars. That cutthroat capitalism now threatens a potential solution to booming Florida's traffic problems.
The SeaWorld Orlando and Universal Orlando theme parks believe it's best for Florida if a bullet train network is derailed before it ever leaves the station. High-speed rail is too expensive and more roads would better solve the state's gridlock, they say.
However, many question whether the parks' big-dollar contributions to an antitrain petition drive reflects anger the line bypasses their properties and delivers visitors seven miles away directly to rival Walt Disney World.
One civic leader says a shortsighted war could have long-term consequences.
``The tourist corridor is our bread and butter for not only the region, but the state,'' said Rep. John Mica, R-Altamonte Springs, the senior Floridian on the House Committee on Transportation & Infrastructure. ``At some point, they're going to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs for the economy.''
Constitutional Amendment
This fight became an inevitability four years ago, when the state's voters approved a constitutional amendment requiring the construction of a high-speed rail network. The first leg would run from Orlando International Airport to Tampa, with a cost currently estimated at $2.3 billion.
Ten miles west of the airport via the Bee Line Expressway is the International Drive tourist district, home to SeaWorld, Universal and the Orange County Convention Center; seven miles beyond, near the Central Florida GreeneWay toll road's end, is Disney.
Between the two tourist draws, Interstate 4 sees a daily average of more than 150,000 vehicles, according to 2003 figures provided by the Florida Department of Transportation.
The Florida High Speed Rail Authority decided on a route in October by looking to who could deliver the most passengers. It wasn't close, according to ridership studies: Disney offers 2.2 million riders annually, more than four times what I- Drive can deliver.
The station, if constructed, would be on 50 acres of Disney land at the confluence of three major traffic arteries: I-4, U.S. 192 and the Osceola Parkway.
``The GreeneWay is the best route for high-speed service,'' Disney spokesman Bill Warren said.
Even a longtime Disney critic admitted it would make more sense to put the station at Disney.
``When you try to make mass transit work, you have to make the trains go to where the people want to go,'' said Rollins College political science professor Rick Fogelsong.
Rivals Turn Up Heat
Stung by Disney's victory, SeaWorld and Universal have turned their lobbying efforts toward killing the train. The parks have combined to contribute $470,000 to DErail the Bullet Train (DEBT), which wants to put an amendment repeal before the voters in November. That's nearly one- third of the $1.48 million DEBT has collected.
SeaWorld's parent company wrapped its money in the rhetoric of a good corporate citizen.
``Because of the negative economic impact on the state of Florida, the taxpayers and businesses in the state, Anheuser-Busch does not support the high-speed rail project,'' the brewery said in a statement. ``The taxpayers of the state will be required to subsidize a losing proposition.''
``SeaWorld was lobbying for a stop at I-Drive,'' said C.C. ``Doc'' Dockery, who spent $3 million to get high speed rail on the 2000 ballot. ``Their opposition surfaced only after the authority voted for the GreeneWay location. There's nothing principled about that.''
This story can be found at: http://tampatrib.com/floridametronews/MGBJ3U74UWD.html
-----
About time someone sees this from a tourist/economic standpoint.
Disney World actually had its own airport for private planes, though it's no longer in use.
I guess we'll just have to wait until there are 500,000 thousand cars on interstate 4 before we see the "Bullet Train" back on the news again.
So you're saying in 2006 this will happen? :)
It's funny, the two ends, orlando and tampa has about 240+ cars a day on their portions. Orlando is expanding to connect to daytona, tampa connecting with plant city/lakeland. But....
Columbus ohio with it's 4billion dollar plan and LRT is freaking out and they ONLY see 150,000 cars a day, our RURAL segment has that same amount of cars and they're telling me it's not bad? Come on! These DEBT guys are nothing but bullies.
Mike
It is where at the Transit Museum gift shop I purchased a copy of the new Stan Fischler book "The Subway And The City" priced at $39.95 plus tax. This must-have and read book is a real heavy one, and it does tell the story again of the New York City subway in general with some great awesome photos. As an added bonus, the author also fondly tells stories from his personal life in connection with the story.
It was said that Stan Fischler was at the Transit Museum giving a lecture in relation to the book on Saturday 7/17/2004. Since he had lots of fond memories of riding the R-1/9's on the "GG" line during his youth (as he explained in the book), I wonder if he was able to go on that day inside R-9 #1802 downstairs on the platform level. With all except one "against the wall", the roll sign boxes on #1802 were signed up for the "GG" route.
-William A. Padron
["Wash.Hts.-8th Av.Exp."]
I hope they don't touch the signs on 3184. The R-10s were the A and the A was R-10 country. With all the hoopla about the subway's Centennial anniversary and plans to run the museum trains, it's a real shame that more R-10s weren't kept. I'd give anything to be on a train of Thunderbirds carrying A signs on a rip-roaring rocket ride up CPW again.
It was also where R-10 car #3000 was used in a special MTA-issued Diamond Jubliee poster in 1979, with a pencil drawing of the unit itself. The original drawing made was put on display for a while at the New York Historical Society on Central Park West.
-William A. Padron
["Wash.Hts.-8th Av.Exp."]
A MoD trip with an entire R-10 fleet = instant payout.
Now, we have 1575 to deal with... ;)
:)
In your opinions, will this cause the ridership for the R line in Brooklyn to drop big time in 2005?
-Broadway Buffer
Exactly, for trips to Manhattan, compared with the subway anything is a blip.
There is a significant population in Bay Ridge that is unwilling to ride the subway, due to attitudes developed in the 1970s and early 1980s. These people pay extra to ride an express bus that takes just as long, or even drive and pay big bucks to park, just to avoid riding with you and me. The water taxi will take riders from the auto and the express bus -- not a bad result from a transit point of view.
Even with it's fairly close proximity to the Bay Ridge Ave Station?
„due to attitudes developed in the 1970s and early 1980s"
I don't know of these attitudes. What do you mean, exactly?
-Broadway Buffer
The attitude that the subway is where the freaks, geeks, skells, ne'er-do-wells, skanks, ho's, crack-ho's, smack-ho's, muggers, buggerers, thugs, crooks, robbers, gangsters, gang-bangers and the like congregate to spawn more of their unholy kind. They actually did some of that back then (though much less than the "attitude" would suggest), certainly much more so than today. Of course people with the "attitude" haven't been to the flipside in 30+ years so they have no idea how much it's improved.
And the ferry will only go to one point in Manhattan. The R makes lots of stops in Manhattan and offers transfers to 10 other routes before even leaving Brooklyn.
Besides, peak ridership on the R is in Manhattan, not in Brooklyn.
That's five loong blocks from the station to the pier, witha rather neat change in elevation (there's a reason this place is called Bay RIDGE). Besides, have you looked at their prices (http://www.nywatertaxi.com/tickets.php? That's $5 one way ($4.50 if you a buy a 10 ticket book) which is more than the current Express bus fare, for service that runs every 40 minutes (5 trips between 6:30 and 9:30). And yes, I know this is for the Army terminal to Pier 11; since 69 St is further away, expect the fare to be even higher.
However, as current residents die out and move away, they will likely be replaced by new residents who moved there exactly because there is a subway. New people, new attitudes. I think that what has brought the subway back. If you are a white woman, and you were mugged on the subway in 1978 (or you know someone who was), it will be hard to change your mind. If you die or move away, you'll be replaced by someone who has no idea what things were like in 1978.
Unless our damn state government brings back the past.
The thought of having buses feed that station (or 8th Ave) now that the N is express had occurred to me. Having buses from Staten Island go there is another idea. To me, the whole bus network needs to be reorganized.
David
Most people use the express bus and many used the water ferry at 69th street and then at the army terminal
Total 2002 ridership from the four Bay Ridge subway stations is 7,560,570. Assuming all days of the year have equal ridership (obviously that's not the case in Bay Ridge, but I'll be generous), that's 20,714 per day.
The X27/37 has 68 scheduled trips from Bay Ridge to Manhattan on each weekday. According to your claim, the express buses carry at least 20,715 passengers per day.
Thus the average bus load, according to your claim, is at least 305. Those buses must be huge!
Now back to reality. The R runs every 6 minutes during rush hours and has cross-platform connections with expresses to both Broadway and 6th Avenue. What's the problem?
I imagine that some people who want to avoid having to transfer to crowded IRT trains at Atlantic Av might take such a water taxi. Or people who work within a short hike of the piers.
Would the water taxi be of any benefit to A train riders? I note that the A train is not available through a direct, single transfer for R riders. In fact the Broadway line never connects to an A or C train.
With the economy rebounding and housing and office space and cultural attractions being restored slowly but steadily in lower Manhattan, there will be plenty of business to go around - subway, water taxi and express bus.
There is a direct transfer between the A/C and the Broadway BMT at 42nd Street. For those with unlimiteds, there are also short out-of-system walks at Lawrence - Jay and Cortlandt - Fulton.
Your point about short, double-fare transfers is correct, but I don't know how many people use them.
Why on earth would anybody do that? What possible reason would anyone have for even considering it?
The ferry will be useful for people who live near Bay Ridge Avenue closer to the water than to the subway and who work in lower Manhattan. It won't be remotely useful to anyone who rides the A/C. I can't imagine why anyone would suggest it would be.
Exactly. You don't mind doing that, but a fair enumber of people do, if they are offered an alternative.
" or make two easy transfers (one cross-platform, one up an escalator) to get to 8th Avenue itself."
You and I don't mind doing that, but you and I are not typical riders.
Option 1 takes at least 20 minutes walking, about 20 minutes on the boat, and about 10 minutes on the A/C to reach West 4th, for a total of 50 minutes plus waits (which can be up to 40 minutes for the ferry).
Option 2 takes about 7 minutes on the R and about 20 minutes on the D, for a total of 27 minutes plus waits (which are no longer than a few minutes during rush hours).
Option 2 entails walking much longer distances, spending much more money, and taking much more time.
And you suggest that the typical rider would pick option 2? I'm not willing to ascribe such stupidity to the typical rider. The next time you need to get from Bay Ridge to 8th Avenue, feel free to use the ferry.
Why do you assume the rider automatically is closer to the subway than to the ferry? What if the opposite is true?
"which can be up to 40 minutes for the ferry). "
At rush hour? I think not. Plus, someone taking a ferry would plan to be at the ferry slip only a few minutes prior to departure.
"I'm not willing to ascribe such stupidity to the typical rider."
Then by necessity you are calling everyone who uses ferry service in New York a complete moron. It's good you made that clear and up-front.
http://www.nywatertaxi.com/brooklyn.php
The current schedule from B'klyn Army Terminal to Pier 11 is every 40 minutes during rush hours. Any reason you assume more frequent service from 69 St?
The ferry terminal is at the far northwest corner of Bay Ridge. Some patrons of the Bay Ridge Avenue station and perhaps the 77th Street station will find it closer than the subway. The rest of the neighborhood will still be closer to the subway.
At the Manhattan end, the ferry terminal is at Wall Street on the East River. The A/C does not stop at Wall Street on the East River. It stops at neither Wall Street nor the East River. Its closest stop to the ferry terminal is at Fulton and Nassau, 10-15 minutes away.
At rush hour? I think not.
The ferry in question doesn't operate at any other time.
Plus, someone taking a ferry would plan to be at the ferry slip only a few minutes prior to departure.
Plans get disrupted on occasion. A subway passenger who misses the train he was planning to catch loses 6 minutes. A ferry passenger who misses the boat he was planning to catch loses 40 minutes.
Some people work on schedules determined by others. If I have to be at work by 9:00, and the ferry-plus-subway combo gets me there at 9:05, I have no choice but to take the ferry 40 minutes earlier, even though that leaves me twiddling my thumbs for 35 minutes.
Then by necessity you are calling everyone who uses ferry service in New York a complete moron. It's good you made that clear and up-front.
Really? I wasn't aware that every ferry rider in New York spends $5 to be dropped off a 10-minute walk from the subway line they need. The ferry riders I've spoken to have told me that the ferry is their fastest, cheapest, and/or most convenient mode of travel available. Are they lying to me? Could they really make the same trip in a fraction of the time, for a fraction of the cost, and with a fraction of the walking via some other mode?
Of course the ferry does give you some great scenery. I could see myself riding the ferry one way and using the subway the other way because of the view and the sea breeze (on a nice day, that is).
Take the Subway one way and the ferry the other on a nice day. Its always good to have a commute change sometimes. It helps u work better after coming in on a ferry, so I suggest u take the ferry in the morning.
-Broadway Buffer
There should be more ferry access where possible, especially in the outer boroughs. Here in Queens, I think service was just recently restored to Far Rockaway.
I'd love to see ferry service to northern Queens.
-Broadway Buffer
Disney World actually had its own airport for private planes, though it's no longer in use.
I guess we'll just have to wait until there are 500,000 thousand cars on interstate 4 before we see the "Bullet Train" back on the news again.
So you're saying in 2006 this will happen? :)
It's funny, the two ends, orlando and tampa has about 240+ cars a day on their portions. Orlando is expanding to connect to daytona, tampa connecting with plant city/lakeland. But....
Columbus ohio with it's 4billion dollar plan and LRT is freaking out and they ONLY see 150,000 cars a day, our RURAL segment has that same amount of cars and they're telling me it's not bad? Come on! These DEBT guys are nothing but bullies.
New Haven, CT (WTNH Channel 8 News) link:
http://www.wtnh.com/Global/story.asp?S=2057677
The car being used is one of the demotored Budd SPV 2000s.
Great so they detect the bomb when the bomber and bag are on the train, thats like finding landmines with your foot.
The Fleecing of America at work.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
Your pal,
Lab Rat
Got the N40/N41 to Freeport. Got the 8:29 out of Freeport(M7), connected to a C3 going to Patchogue at Babylon. I was really suprised to see, this thing was PACKED! SRO! TG I was only goin to Bay Shore. A lot of people got off at Bay Shore. Took one of those van services to the Bay Shore ferry terminal. Good thing I didn't have breakfast., That ride was so bumpy, I would've been chunkin all over the place(aint that a pleasant image)
The Bay Shore ferry terminal is pretty cool. Nice place. I think there were about 8 ferry slips. It was really busy there.
Applied for a job, walked up into town. Got the S40 to Sayville. As it pulled in, I snapped a picture of it. The driver started to give me greif about takin pics(What's ST's pic takin policy?). Went down to the ferry terminal over there. Applied for a job, then went back into town. Got some lunch, got the S40 to Patchogue RR station. Got a shot of I think an empty headin westbound. There was a suffolk cop watchin me, but he didn't bother me.
The Watch Hill ferry terminal was right there, but of course, it had to be closed. Walked down to the Davis Park terminal, applied for a job. Saw an old steamboat make a quick run around the area. I then decided to take a ride to Fire Island and back. It was a very nice ride.
Got the 4:43 out of Patchogue. The train was short a car, so it was SRO by the time we hit Bay Shore. Connected to a local to Freeport(another M7)
Got the 6:24 N40(413, very nice ride). SRO when we left the train station, all the way to HTC
At Mineola, took a few more train and bus pics, 2 MTA cops saw, they didn't do anything.
Got the 7:25 N23 to Port Washington(141)
Can't wait to see the pics.
Speaking of which, I'll be sad when level boarding levels Mineola. :( It was so nice being able to run for the train without ascending three stories. Now that I'm back in Hicksville, if you're caught under the trestle when the train rumbles overhead, you're SOL. :(
I'd say one of my favorite photos is 54. I like how that D is hidden within the flora: not to mention the superb shot of virtually every interlocking near 9th Avenue.
I'll look at yours if you'll look at mine from Saturday. :)
Actually, I already looked at yours - very good, thanks for putting them up, Chris.
The last two look (56 and 57) look to be identical.
Bob
wayne
Hey, don't look at me, just because I enjoy the panicked reactions doesn't mean I'd actually do it myself ... though there is something fun about being a prankster.
-Chris
Fireworks are so stupid, I just can't understand the point of them.
If it was fire crackers, then yeah.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
Now I'd like to hear from Mr. IQ train minus 7 about how this hero cop should have been wearing depends for investigating a "harmless" suspicious package..
And it was also said, it was the officer himself who did it, he planted it, and he did it on purpose to show up and to make it look like he injured himself while checking this "suspicious" package.
Now some folks might say 9/11 "shell shock" contributed to that little explosion. Here's the news on that firecracker/ fireworks/ pipe bomb explosion.
Thousands of police officers were involved in 9/11-related work, many of them right on the scene, yet they're not setting off pipe bombs.
Good point. Perhaps there are a few nuts in every bunch.
You don't know how much I miss the good old days in NY when that law was barely enforced. I so loved the 4th of July back then... fireworks and a BBQ (Roman Candles were my favorites)... I am planning a vacation in South Carolina next year just so that I can enjoy that pleasure again :-)
Peace..:&:..Love
J e n
Peace..:&:..Love
J e n
Signed
T/O Mustang
Even if one bomb detonates every month in a subway system somewhere in the US, your chances of dying in a car accident or car-pedestrian accident are still much higher.
It would be terrible if Al Qaeda could manage a bomb campaign in the US. But your personal chances of getting zapped by such a campaign are extremely low.
On second thought, you sure it was a good idea to let 9/11 survivors wander around the city? If they're gonna be terrorists, as this one obviously was (after all, why spark a bomb in a staircase except to scare people?), then we might as well send 'em to Afghanistan to blow up the Al Qaeda jerks that killed their relatives to begin with, rather than scare folks that had nothing to do with the 9/11 attacks to begin with. Maybe this cop was Mr. Anthrax, class of 2001?
Bill Wall told me about the upcoming Brooklyn Union fan trips at the Pennsylvania Trolley Museum on the day that Red Arrow 14 was presented and I checked the work schedule when I got home and found that I couldn't make it for any. What I didn't think to ask him then was if fan trips using these pieces of equipment are still going to take place after 2004? I don't know what my work schedule and the fan trip schedule looks like for the rest of the year and I'd like to come down and ride and photograph these cars but I don't know if I'll be able to do it before the Subway Centennial is over.
It would be a shame if all of these cars are parked in the transit museum and in the yards where they're stored without being run for years as a lot of them were before now after all the work that was done to get them running well again.
If anybody could post some information here or email me privately, I'd very greatful.
Thanks,
Robert King
That said, they certainly won't be as frequent as they are now, so catch them now if you can.
Formal arrangements have been known to change on occasion. Besides, what's wrong with fantrips on work trains?
It will be a matter of being at the right place at the right time.
til next time
I highly doubt that camp groups use the subway so much, relative to other passengers that it could ruin anything. The subway is provided for the purposes of conveying passengers from their origin to their destinations in order to provide for the region's commercial needs. It does not exist as an entertainment venue, that is secondary at best. If entertainment must suffer on behalf of transportation, then so be it.
So while some current adults may think that day-camp groups are annoying, etc -- just think about what the kids are learning about the city. Who knows, among those kids might come a new crop of rail-fans. Just a thought.
In any case, it all depends on the supervisers who watch them.
This is very true. I have often gone out of my way to compliment a chaperone of a well behaved group, be it a camp group or school group.
Peace,
ANDEE
On Wednesday, in the PM rush, I was stuck on a crowded D train between 7th Avenue and Columbus Circle for about 15 minutes (the train in front of us had gone BIE and nobody bothered to instruct the C/R to hold at 7th). The a/c couldn't keep up and the camp kids, who were occuping about a third of the seats in the car, wouldn't stop screaming.
I don't like camp groups on subway trains anymore.
Did you have materials with you to conduct an impromptu math course? :0)
1898...It's farewell to horse-drawn trolleys on Sixth and Eighth Avenues as electric train lines go into service.
Peace,
ANDEE
So lift 'em high and salute our astronauts - it took them 8 years to get there the first time, and they could possibly return in as little as 15! Isn't progress great?
3,000 mph? Guess there weren't any grade timers.
Your pal,
Fred
Click on the thumbnail below to enter my video album and then download the first video. Enjoy.
Your pal,
Fred
Your pal,
Fred
Anyway, I saw on Good Day New York this morning that a cop going home from work last night found a burning bag in a stairway. Apparently it then exploded. He was injured, but not seriously.
They are trying to determine if it was just a prank, or if it was actually something to be concerned about, and get the Terrorism Task Force in. Speculation was that it may have been a bag of fireworks, but who knows, they weren't clear on that at the time of the broadcast.
"...traces of black powder and ball bearings at the scene."
Ball bearings... If true, this is no prank. Ball bearings and nails are the same materials bombers use in Israel to inflict maxium casualties. This could be huge. I pray not.
~W
it could be anything. was the black powder and ball bearins part of the package? and if that were the case, were these fragments AS A result of the explosion, or were these fragments only ADDED to the bag to make it look like they would be from a bomb?
also the daily news, accurate they may be, likes to sensationalize the story to make it sound worse.
"A backpack that set off a small explosion in a Times Square subway station may have contained a pipe bomb and not just fireworks, as originally believed"
Tell Fox to Kiss the ASS of every American ...Especialy New Yorkers..
Pipe bombs, even crude ones, kill ... smells fishy ...
http://1010wins.com/topstories/winstopstories_story_202152847.html
Even if it turns out to be a pipe bomb, there are plenty of very plausible suspects other than Al Qaeda.
But folks need to remember that we once had George Matesky as well as FALN actually blowing up the subways years ago. And in this situation, we clearly have a loose nutcake - terrorists wouldn't go for such a piddly floor show, assuming that it was an attempt at "terrorism" in the first place. I really hope they NAIL this clown. :(
Bizarre, if it's true.
CG
And first reports from Faux News certainly doesn't help. :)
just pick one and tell me which one is better i agree with B.city college 137 street bound 1 local train and the next stop is D.lehman college bedford park boulevard
Gets the same point across in half the time without assaulting the passengers' ears.
www.photopermit.org
-Dave
Your pal,
Doubtful
What I am saying is that making your own Photo Permit means nothing if it wasn't officially issued by some agency.
It is almost like wearing a reflective vest that says "Offical Photographer" (we all know what trouble he got into).
Exactly. If the police are enforcing as law a photo ban that isn't law in the name of investigating "suspicious behavior," who's to think that it's going to be any different if you have a legally issued photo permit? The fact is, if they see something they decide is suspicious (or higher-ups insist they must check out), you're going to be accosted just the same whether you have a permit or not. In fact, if a permit system existed, you'd get the same treatment after presenting a permit as you get now without one (i.e. the default level of suspicion and harassment). And if you don't have a permit when the system exists, God help you. All it does is pivot the fulcrum further away from "innocent until proven guilty" toward "guilty until proven innocent."
And if, for the sake of argument, an officer walks up to question you for activity he believes to be suspicious, but immediately backs down and vacates upon the presentation of a photo permit, doesn't that make a permit a de facto "get out of jail free" card for an Al Qaeda operative who actually is up to devious purposes? And if you think background checks will weed out all the terrorists (so no photo permit will ever be issued to someone who is up to no good), and if photo permits are designed in such a way that it is absolutely impossible to produce a fake one, bear in mind that background checks didn't stop the 9/11 hijackers, and there are a number of "tattoo parlors" downtown which don't even have a tattoo artist on staff (I'll let you figure that one out).
til next time
You missed nothing; you actually bothered to read the site before critiquing it :)
ALL OF THIS IS FOR NOTHING!!!!
No matter what line of thinking one has.
The terrorist are gonna find out what they need to know, & if they need photo's they'll get'em phot ban or not!!!
Railfan's are gonna keep on clicking away anyway too!!!
This whole thing is a waste of cop power. when they could be used for real police work.
New Jersey Transit:
All trains will terminate at Hoboken Terminal where all passengers will have to transfer to ferry boats or PATH.
I also heard something about some trains that will be boarded at Syracuse Junction with police and K-9 units that will search the train before it proceeds into the tunnels.
Long Island Railroad:
All trains will terminate at Jamaica, Hunterspoint Ave, or Flatbush Ave where passengers will have to transfer to the Subway.
*All with exception to the Port Washington Branch which will stop at Woodside where trains will be boarded with police and K-9 units to search the train before it proceeds into the tunnels.
Again, only during the Republican National Convention.
-Broadway Buffer
LIRR anticipates offering regular service.
NJT will have regular service except on the M&E and Montclair/Boonton lines, where trains that would normally run to Penn will go to Hoboken.
CG
I would wait for further info in that case.
-Broadway Buffer
http://www.mta.info/lirr/service/RNC.htm
If you check the Newsday website, this is what they are reporting as well (albeit, apparently taken enitrely from the above link).
CG
-Broadway Buffer
NJT has only announced the diversion of midtown direct trains.
No commuter trains go through Syracuse, so if they have their search dogs stationed in Syracuse they'll have a long wait.
Ugh...
-Broadway Buffer
When all revenues and expenses are tallied, the convention probably will be a huge money-loser.
Sorry for the error, but I just noticed it now.
-Broadway Buffer
Posted on: 7/20/04 11:30:15 AM
Due to a Police Investigation at 34th Street & 6th Avenue in Manhattan, (B), (D), and (F) trains are bypassing the station in both directions until further notice.
So the V's stopping there? ;-)
-RJM
Any news from anyone...this one will be tough to call, considering a lot of the lines changed on 2/24/04.
Jonathan
OK then, what is "their system"?
And therein lies your problem Chris: Here, we tend to see deeper into things such as maintenance, car assignments, and things such as the all important MDBF (which should not be too different between similar equipment running from one yard). I would say that the MTA has made some good strides in saving money on maintenance and still doing decent maintenance (i.e., prior to the reopening of the Manhattan Bridge, Concourse was all-R68. Also, R44s and R38s are assigned to one line, R42s (most of them) to one shop, R46s to one shop, etc. The only car distributed throughout the system is the R32.) Just my two cents.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
The rankings take into account MDBF.
What about lines that run different types of equipment, weighted average?
Take the B and D, which shared equipment in 2003. The B made many more stops per mile than the D. If some failures were related to stops (braking, acceleration, doors), one would expect the B to have a lower MDBF than the D.
That doesn't reflect on the cars themselves, since, of course, they're the same cars. But it does reflect on the reliability of the route. And the report rates routes, not cars.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
How can you not be sure about the methodolgy if you just posted a link to it?
BIGGEST BS LINE in the entire report.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
I Don't Wear Teal Pants?
Idiots Don't Want To Party?
OH...I Disagree With This Poster.
But, of course, I personally have the R142As as my favorite cars. Opinions make the world go 'round, so that's your explanation.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Don't you think thats a bit extreme?
Also too bad they hadn't invented the vandal shield back then. :-/
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
It would be great to get all the vandals to pay for what they did and clean, but you'd have so many people paying, cuz it was such a popular thing to do back then. Who knows, u might have even been one of them if you were around in the prime times of it!
Just playin :-)
-Broadway Buffer
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Also too bad they hadn't invented the vandal shield back then. :-/
Scratchiti wasn't even a big thing though, they were worrying about graffiti at the time.
How do you know that? Did you keep score on every consist serving on that line? And what about the other lines?
How are the announcements on other lines relevant to the rating of the 2?
The Strappies may not come to a conclusion you like; that's fine. But you haven't demonstrated that you know anything about doing a survey, collecting information based on a consistent methodology and analyzing results (but you do know how to throw mud). The Straphangers do know how to do that, and what's more, it was their survey instruments that, in part, earned them the credibility to apply pressure to the MTA Board and state government in the early 1980s to get the Capital Plan process started - and that's what brought the subway system back from a place very close to the junk heap.
I know Gene Russianoff and have worked with him on projects like the SAS (we served on a task force together). His organization has its strengths and weaknesses (they missed an opportunity to work out the final compromise on the Connector service plan) but they accomplish a lot.
So what you done for the subway lately - besides railfanning?
The only people who look dumb are the mediots who contuinue to frame this organization as a serious proponent of improving subway service.
On the other hand, I don't see you doing anything except throwing mud.
The only people who look dumb are the mediots who continue to frame this organization as a serious proponent of improving subway service.
Just because a line uses the same cars/yards doesn't mean that they're equal.
Standard NYPIRG operating procedure.
The South Bronx, Corona, and Jamaica are "mostly white"?
If so, that's a strong accusation. Do you have any facts to back it up? If you're skeptical, you can repeat the analysis (with the help of a few FOIL requests to get the data you need).
There are a few details I question, but overall, it seems to be on target.
Whether the methodology is a useful one is a different, and open, question.
If so, that's a strong accusation. Do you have any facts to back it up?
So, so naive ...
If a report makes up numbers to support its agenda but cites a quantitative methodology to arrive by the numbers, that's fraud. (It's also straightforward to verify. I assure you, if the methodology were a fraud, a member of the opposing political team would have sued by now.)
If this is fraud, it's pretty bad fraud. Four of the five routes that are ranked under $1.00 serve solidly middle-class neighborhoods. None of them even enter the Bronx!
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
Of course it cannot be as frequent as the L, 6 and 7 trains, they don't have to share any tracks with any other line meanwhile the E has to share with the C in Manhattan, share the express track with the F in Queens. Then you have the switch at JC which is further away than it should of been which leads to some trains going to 179 St.
What the L needs is a way to efficiently short-turn alternate trains at Myrtle or Broadway Junction. (If it makes you happy, since you like expresses, you can think of it as an express that makes all stops as far as Myrtle and then bypasses all of the rest of the stops on the line. But since it isn't going to make any stops past Myrtle anyway, it might as well not travel all the way out to Canarsie and back with no passengers.)
It's time a railfans who knows the operation of the subway system, take over the straphangers campaign. Then reports could come out with credibility.
The Straphangers, as a group, are laughable.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
Why? Passengers like to sit. The easier it is to get a seat, the better.
It's laughable that they rank the N last when this line had the biggest improved rerouting in years (putting it back on the bridge).
Read before you criticize. The report is based on 2003 statistics. It is littered with footnotes that emphasize that the ratings for the B, D, N, Q, and W are not based on their current routings.
It's laughable that they use the $2 figure as the highest rank when the average straphanger pays $1.26 for one ride.
I agree that the $2 scale is ridiculous, though not for that reason.
W Broadway Local
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
http://www.straphangers.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=006202;p=1
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
I post on both boards so I'll leave this one alone...
W Bwy Local
Your criticism is still valid. There are ways around the problem that perhaps should have been used. For instance, ignore the issue of crowding on the G and rank it based on the remaining measures. But one could legitimately argue that the G shouldn't be ranked along with the other routes if the G's score is computed differently from the scores of the other routes.
Then its time to come up with a new formula otherwise you will continue to see criticism with these Straps reports. My point is that they treat the G as if it were a shuttle train and not as a real subway line.
For instance, ignore the issue of crowding on the G and rank it based on the remaining measures.
I can agree with that, they can still do the breakdown ratio and so on...
The 6 is fairly reliable, but ranking it at the top is unjustified due to its severe bottlenecking issues at third avenue during the AM rush (the reason why I missed my first class entirely on the last day of school. Who cares, it was the last day, I know...), tie ups at parkchester during the PM, and very persistant train bunching.
Their ranking makes no sense at all.
W Broadway Local
The G train is not included because crowding data is not available.
W Broadway Local
Oh, no! Judging from the "fine workmanship" of their NJ Transit Comet V coaches, that crap should be broken in a few weeks, if not already!
However, let me cut to the chase: Did you have the local delicacy? :-D
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
Sean@Temple
Click on the BU's to enter.
Cheers!
The last I heard, the MTA Board was suppose to vote on the proposed photo ban in september, and I can only assume they will be sticking to that plan since no one has heard otherwise. Thus, The time is drawing closer... September is right around the corner. It'll be back to school time again, time for us to teach the public and perhaps even the MTA board that signing off on a ban of photography within the NYC Subway system will protect no one, harm tourism and the local economy with it, and prove once again that the MTA is completely out of touch with reality.
The June 6th protest gave them a black eye in terms of PR, but one black eye is not enough. I want to plot another protest, sometime around early september that will be larger and better organized than the last one. The last one was essentially thrown together within a week, week and half worth of time. fast enough to get media noticed, but far too fast to allow for better collaboration, planning, spreading of the word, etc. (I can't count the number of people who came up to me and said 'if I knew about this sooner I could have had 50 more people come with me). This time around, I'd like to plan it better with whomever can give some time to help out. The better coordinated the plan, and the more people who volunteer to help out with whipping up a press release, creating a petition, spreading the word and sharing ideas, the bigger better and more effective it will be (not that all the effort that so many of you put into spreading the word last time was bad - it was great! I just know we can coordinate effort and get a lot more people out).
All of that said, if you're interested in helpin' out, drop me an email. I want to have one face to face meeting in the next week or two, then probably just plan it out online (email, web boards, chat... who has time to go to meetings all day anyway?!) after that.
- the joe
thejoe [ -at- ] mtude.com
http://photorights.mtude.com
(shorter url, full domain likely coming soon...)
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!
She's so annoying sometimes , that she just may work ! Let's get her!!!!!
She's perfect for a story like this .
Sept 2003
Oct 2003
My take on it is that the people at the bottom are doing what they're told to do (for the most part), ultimately, the orders come from the top. That, I believe, is what must be influenced, not just through protests, but with speaking to your local elected representatives. These are quasi-gov't organisations, remember.
Write them a letter (via snail mail) and see if you get a response...I haven't.
Your pal,
Fred
Selling a swipe to a tourist: $2.
Photographing the bum in the act and showing it to the cops: PRICELESS.
Also, some people who don't use unlimiteds might be more inclined to attend if they didn't have to pay three or four fares to participate. Meet inside a subway station and remain within the subway system.
It's sunken tube construction[4 tubes end to end,each about 375 feet long]Upper and lower levels with tracks side by side with dividing wall....
do they build the entire tunnel and then just drop it to the bottom of the river?
also, do they drop them full finished, with rails and everything there, or do they go in afterwards and do that?
lastly, how do they then connect it to the underground sections on either end?
The tunnel is then connected to the underground sections by boring through the remainder of the soil at the river bank.
Finally the new tunnel can be lined, and all the necessary hardware installed.
where are they made, and how big is each section?
Section were sunk at the bulkhead or as close as possible...to a trench dig out in the river bottom....
once they are in the correct position,divers weld the sections together and the tunnel is covered with rip-rap[loose rocks]and spoils....
the tube were broken thru to the route[under Roosevelt Island,Manhattan and Queens...lined with concrete and equiped.
David
Your pal,
Fred
It sure has a current, but most of it is due to tides.
To a small degree it is a genuine river, i.e., delivering fresh water from inland areas to the ocean. The Bronx River, which drains part of the Bronx and lower Westchester, flows into it.
Not very likely.
An amp of current at 110 V can kill a person.
That's only 110 watts, and probably only for a second or so by the time you're dead, so it's only 110 joules.
A nice hot cup of coffee is more than that. A bask in the sunshine is way more.
The effect of the current on your heart is a much more likely culprit.
It will if you're damp.
Classic case: take a shower and don't dry off too thoroughly. Step on frayed cord with damp feet while touching radiator with damp hand. Immediate death follows. This has happened.
110 Volts of DC (Direct Current) would kill you very, very quickly, if is touched where the resistance is low, like at the toes, at the fingers, behind the ear, or on the neck or chest because all the electricity flows in one direction. And the "letting go after 1 second" part of the question isn't possible, because once that starts flowing through you, you can't let go, because of the electrical attraction. So once you touch it, you're going to be attached for a long enough time to kill yourself. So think what 600 V DC would be like.
With 110 V AC, it's hard enough to let go (don't try this at home), but at least it will only burn you a little, not completely turn your blood into a Sears Diehard Battery.
I don't think there is any sort of electrical attraction at work here, but when you get electrocuted, your mussles tend to contract, making you hold on very tightly. If you were to be electrocuted by bumping your elbow against something, you'd flinch and probably break contact with it.
When posting pure guesses, please say something like "I guess" or "I think" so that this kind of stuff doesn't masquerade as fact.
What you're thinking of is called "let-go current." Put simply, there's a certain amount of current below which you will be able to "let go." A higher let-go current means that more current must be passed in order to prevent you from, for example, opening a hand that's grabbed a hot conductor. Let-go is frequency-dependent. From 0Hz (DC), as the frequency increases, let-go drops until bottoming out and then rising again. I think (note use of that phrase) that let-go actually bottoms out in the 50-60Hz range, right at the level that we use for energy distribution. So, if you care to look at it this way, the AC with which we all are familiar is actually more of a hazard than DC.
If you don't let go or aren't in a position to let go, then DC and AC (at any frequency) are roughly equally hazardous, voltage and current being equal.
**NOTE** Graphic Content listed post-mortem examination details.
ELECTROCUTION (an anomalous derivative fro~n electroexecution ; syn. electrothanasia ), the popular name, invented in America, for the infliction of the death penalty on criminals (see CAPITAL PUNISHMENT) by passing through the body of the condemned a sufficient current of electricity to cause death. The method was first adopted by the state of New York, a law making this method obligatory having been passed and approved by the governor on the 4th of June 1888.
When properly performed the effect is painless and instantaneous death. The mechanism of life, circulation and respiration cease with the first contact. Consciousness is blotted out instantly, and the prolonged application of the current ensures permanent derangement of the vital functions beyond recovery. Occasionally the drying of the sponges through undue generation of heat causes desquamation or superficial blistering of the skin at the site of the electrodes. Post-mortem discoloration, or post-mortem lividity, often appears during the first contact. The pupils of the eyes dilate instantly and remain dilated after death.
The post-mortem examination of electrocuted criminals reveals a number of interesting phenomena. The temperature of the body rises promptly after death to a very high point. At the site of the leg electrode a temperature of over 128 F. was registered within fifteen minutes in many cases. After the removal of the brain the temperature recorded in the spinal canal was often over 120 F. The development of this high temperature is to be regarded as resulting from the active metabolism of tissues not (somatically) dead within a body where all vital mechanisms have been abolished, there being no circulation to carry off the generated heat. The heart, at first flaccid when exposed soon after death, gradually contracts and assumes a tetanized condition; it empties itself of all blood and takes the form of a heart in systole. The lungs are usually devoid of blood and weigh only 7 or 8 ounces (avoird.) each. The blood is profoundly altered biochemically; it is of a very dark color and it rarely coagulates. (E. A. S.*)
The apparatus consists of a stationary engine, an alternating dynamo capable of generating a current at a pressure of 2000 volts, a death-chair with adjustable head-rest, binding straps and adjustable electrodes devised by E. F. Davis, the state electrician of New York. The voltmeter, ammeter and switch-board controlling the current are located in the executionroom; the dynamo-room is communicated with by electric signals. Before each execution the entire apparatus is thoroughly tested. When everything is in readiness the criminal is brought in and seats himself in the death-chair. His head, chest, arms and legs are secured by broad straps; one electrode thoroughly moistened with salt-solution is affixed to the head, and another to the calf of one leg, both electrodes being moulded so as to secure good contact. The application of the current is usually as follows: the contact is made with a high voltage (1700-1800 volts) for 5 to 7 seconds, reduced to 200 volts until a half-minute has elapsed; raised to high voltage for 3 to 5 seconds, again reduced to low voltage for 3 to 5 seconds, again reduced to a low voltage until one minute has elapsed, when it is again raised to the high voltage for a few seconds and the contact broken. The ammeter usually shows that from 7 to 10 amperes pass through the criminals body. A second or even a third brief contact is sometimes made, partly as a precautionary measure, but rather the more completely to abolish reflexes in the dead body. Calculations have shown that by this method of execution from 7 to 10 h. p. of energy are liberated in the criminals body. The time consumed by the strapping-in process is usually about 45 seconds, and the first contact is made about 70 seconds after the criminal has entered the death-chamber.
Suffice it to say, "don't whiz on the electric fence."
Stu
But I = V/R. Therefore an object with a certain resistance subjected to a given voltage (say 120 volts) has the same current flowing through it as an object with 5 times the resistance subject to 5 times the voltage (600 volts).
And by the way, volts are not a unit of energy. ("First of all, it takes only 12 V of energy for one to temporarily lose control of their muscles for a brief period of time. ")
While it is true that as little as 25ma can cause death, there must be enough current to overcome the inherent resistance of an object to complete the circuit. Using Ohm's Law, if there is enough power in a circuit, current will find the quickest path to ground. A human body will do fine in creating another path from a 3rd rail. If you're not touching a ground anywhere, you could survive but that's rarely the case. Ever notice a cat or one of those big gopher rats hopping around 3rd rails at some of the scummy stations?
Yet, a simple snap switch, which opens less than a half inch will stop the arc reliably, simply because the half inch is attained quicker than the arc can form. Arcs are also related to current, the higher the current the harder the arc is to stop, thus the use of blow-out coils and arc chutes on contactors.
If we go to the other end of the spectrum, where impedances are high, it is almost impossible to start an arc, in fact 25ma won't geneerate more than a tiny spark, which is almost impossible to sustain. Voltage is the pressure that moves the electrons. Current is the number of electrons being moved. Yes the third rail can supply tens of thousands of amps - but not to a high impedance load, and certainly not to an ungrounded load. Electricity deserves respect, and should be handled with due care, but carelessness is downright dangerous!
There are other factors like the muscle spasms induced by the current can force you keep in contact with the rail even when you are trying to get away from it.
Some people survive quite a lot of electricity! Perhaps the most famous is Ethel Rosenberg, who needed 3 cycles of the New York electric chair to kill her.
Which is, of course, cruel and unusual punishment.
Did you hear she was turned down for a job with the MTA? They found she made a very poor conductor.
Ok, bad joke...
The voltage itself won't kill you. It's how well your body is insulated. The higher the insulation, the less current you're body can carry. Touching the ground virtually removes any resistance.
If you are into basic math theory, then one should realize that although the voltage is the same, as the resistance in ohms goes higher, the current in amps must go lower to maintain the constant voltage (in this case 600V). Also the converse is true, the higher the current, the lower the resistance is that is present.
Standing on the 3rd rail only is kinda like how birds stand atop transmission wires without getting fried.
Also, may I point out that if you are really unlucky and you touch the third rail by chance while well grounded, you may even explode like a lightbulb! No kidding!
A memorable demonstration was performed at CTA's Skokie Shops as part of a railfan trip. A metal bar was placed on the third rail and the running rail with the power off. When power was applied, after a spectacular flash, the metal bar vanished. After witnessing that, we were free to roam the premises with exposed third rail everywhere. No mishaps for any railfans that day.
-Broadway Buffer
Once you are electrocuted with enough volts, you cannot move a muscle, so you would stay touching the rail.
Besides, that was just a scene in the movie.
I'm not sure what you mean; Can you be just lightly killed by it?
The DRPA continues to p*** money into the Delaware.
Interesting note towards the end of the article: the Roosevelt Island tram is currently losing $200K/year. The residents want to keep the tram, but they don’t use it enough to keep it viable!
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
Where the heck have you been? In Baltimore? The light rail line formerly known as snidge-lerts operates every half hour until midnight (till 1:15 Sunday morning) between the Camden waterfront and 36th Street, Pennsauken, including the stop at the Broadway PATCO station.
Will it bring people? That's the question.
The out of state fanatics can complain about the TECO trolley losing money, but what happens when they factor in there's a special tax district on the line. And how much more tax is collected thanks to a half billion in development? 2 hotels? A large entertainment complex and cruise-ship port. And the fact it's a desintation in itself and almost 100% of the land on the trolley vincinity is almost built now?
No more fuzzy math, use all the varibles.
It was built as a Manhattan connector for the residents and is redundant now there is a subway stop on the island. So I can see there being pressure to discontinue service given that it doesn’t cover its operating costs—Spiderman I notwithstanding!
So I don’t think there’s any extra variables in the math to play with here.
Here it is.
Your pal,
Fred
How archaic.
And speaking of R32 flipdot signs, I saw this during the Saturday MoD trip:
-RJM
It doesn't really change anything does it? You don't leave the station any faster if you know the route of the train earlier.
And ,yes it does matter,if you are in a hurry.......
Geez,thought you learnedyour lesson about being a jerk...
so why don't YOU leave it alone.
Believe it or not, it does matter if you have to push through a crowd to get to the train or have a lot of stuff to pick up and go with.
If you're standing inside the platform, you won't see the designation until the train is in the station anyway.
Posted on:7/20/04 2:33:48 PM
Due to a smoke condition at 5th Avenue, service on the (7) line is suspended in both directions from Hunters Point Avenue to Times Square.
And IINM, the Long Island Sound counts.
-Chris
til next time
(tho I still regret holding 1 in my hand,
and putting it back down when it was selling for $8)
BUY BUY BUY!!
Anyway, temp or not temp. Anyone know?
-Broadway Buffer
1. (Not related to power) Train delayed 5 min. after So. Amboy due to bridge being up.
2. (Not related to power) Train delayed between bridge and Perth Amboy due to construction for 10 min.
3. (Related to power/signal probs) Train delayed at Secaucus 45 min. due to power/signal problems.
4. Train delayed 5 min. pulling into NYP due to lack of available tracks.
5. Train gets to NYP 1 hr., 5 min. late, resulting in irate passengers.
The action came at the organization’s COPE convention in June, during which members decided which candidates and ballot measures to support. The AFL-CIO’s endorsement joins that of many environmental groups, such as the Audubon Society, the Sierra Club and the Defenders of Wildlife which believe high speed rail can offer a more environmentally sound alternative to building more and more highways.
Florida Transportation Association, Inc. is a non-profit organization of individuals and businesses, formed in 2001 to promote innovative transportation alternatives for Floridians.
----
On a sidenote DEBT used an airline executive to do a "study" on the costs of the train and came uup with an inflated figure by as much as 400% higher than what the train companies all say they can work on.
I dont' know how much it means in a right to work 47% republican state, but as usual this is big stuff in urban area's. Just look at corruption and the sabotage involved with that unions hotel, Westin Diplomat.
Least we have some ppl we can count now.
Should've known you resided in Miami when you posed those Disney rail plans back then...do you have any updates on that?
As far as Disney goes there's no updates on any rail in Orlando or changes in the HSR route for a while. Wish some news on commuter rail would at least crop up.
Yea this is in one of my non-transit newsfeeds. Go figure. I believe transit and tourism are so tied together they're almost one word and not two.
Jul. 20--LAS VEGAS -- This gambling capital is looking to the monorail to ease traffic congestion, hoping it will be the solution that has rarely lived up to Walt Disney's dream for monorails more than 40 years ago.
The Las Vegas Monorail began whisking passengers last week along a four-mile, seven-stop stretch that connects some of the city's biggest resorts and convention sites, including the MGM Grand, Bally's, Harrah's, the Las Vegas Hilton and the Las Vegas Convention Center. A party celebrating the opening ferried special guests as fireworks were set off in the sky.
The city hopes the $650 million system -- all privately financed -- will ease congestion along "The Strip" and shorten the waits at taxi stands that can be 45 minutes during peak times and large conventions. Nearly 20 million riders a year are expected to take the monorail for a fare of $3, or $5.50 for a round trip.
The launch of a monorail in the United States hasn't received so much hoopla since Disney launched his German-designed version at Disneyland in Anaheim, Calif., in 1959. The theme-park creator had hoped the monorail would become a major form of urban transportation and was said to have lobbied different mayors to build one in their cities.
But the monorail has been identified for decades more as a form of fun and entertainment than as the makings of a transportation system.
"Unfortunately, as a result, the monorail became somewhat typecast as a ride," said Kim Pedersen, president and founder of the California-based Monorail Society, a group that promotes monorails. "Zoos, amusement parks and fairs featured monorails, but U.S. cities didn't. It never was taken seriously enough."
.....
click the link for the whole thing.
And Orlando NEEDS one of these things or something similiar.
And all these photos are of one spot, any other photos/areas anyways?
--Mark
-Mark
What he is doing is called "spamming"
Many thanks.
What Joe is doing is not spamming. He is advertising the availability of certain items to an audience with a natural interest in acquiring such stuff. In short, it's targeted advertising, and given the nature of the items I don't believe it's inappropriate for this site.
Quit whining and bellyaching and move on.
"eBay users may not post on Usenet groups (Internet newsgroups) or message boards to advertise
eBay or an eBay listing. If Usenet abuse is reported to eBay, we may among other remedies remove
the listing, issue a warning, or suspend the user's eBay account."
Get a free plug is better.
But Harry does bring up a point. Should this board be used for personal advertising? And if so shouldn't Dave be paid a fee for the priviledge?
Dave makes the rules, of course, but as far as I'm concerned occasional advertisments for rail-related items are okay.
Perhaps I wouldn't find it so objectionable if he clearly identified his ads as such in the subject line. His post wasn't a post about el demolition photos (or links to such photos); it was an offer to sell them to the highest bidder.
Again, what possible reason could you have for objecting to including a "FOR SALE" tag in the subject line so that people who are interested in discussions (as opposed to advertisements) won't waste their time?
If Mr. Saitta were willing to flag his posts with a FOR SALE tag in the subject line, those of us uninterested in advertisements would be able to easily skip them. A post with the subject line "IRT RD Avenue El 1956 Demolition Photos" from any other poster would most likely contain a link to photos freely available on the Internet, which I'm sure many of us would have been interested in seeing.
Your pal,
Fred
Count on using those new golden dollars !
Bill "Newkirk"
They're still there, as far as I know.
"Well, there is such a thing - sort of. When I was a freshman at UCLA, I encountered rows of vending machines that sold you sandwiches, soup, fruit, desserts of various types, chips, soda, yogurt and milk. They were near a big sit-down patio with picnic tables.
They're still there, as far as I know."
Thats his post.
Heres what says there still there, but I really am not sure if hes sure: "They're still there, as far as I know.", now you see?
And even in LA, just curious if there still there or not.
LA? I thought Ron was talking about NYC. You know..."University on the Corner of Lexington Avenue"....< G >
I noticed that the northbound platform is longer than the southbound. Anyone know why ?
Can't be for Aqueduct Race Track, that station (northbound only) is up the line.
Bill "Newkirk"
I was trying to figure it out one time using old LIRR schedules that I have and it seems as though Locust Manor is listed at the same milepost both before and after the elimination of Higbie and Cedar Manor.
On the other hand, Higbie Ave got quite a bit of service, while Cedar and Locust Manors had pretty sparse service -- so it would make sense that Higbie would be rebuilt a bit north of where it was (especially if Rochdale Village was already planned or built) when the line was elevated).
CG
Cedar Manor is up by Linden Boulevard. There's still a civic association up there using that name.
http://www.lirrhistory.com/farcksta.html
there were other stations along the line after Howard beach.The Raunt was one of them,and the TA did plan on using them at one point,before deciding not to[it would slow the line down]....
No, the LIRR terminated at South Ozone Park, just north of where the current "el" crosses over the ROW.
Bill "Newkirk"
Can't be for Aqueduct Race Track, that station (northbound only) is up the line.
Bill "Newkirk"
Hi Bill: The extra long northbound platform dates from the LIRR days. It was the original Aqueduct Station and was built as a high level from the beginning because of the heavy traffic going to the raceway. The northbound platform was the longer one as you said. It can hold about 26-6o foot cars if I recall correctly. It was built extra long to accomodate the racetrack crowds and several trains could load at the same time.
After the TA took over in 1956 the racetrack was somewhat realigned and a new "Aqueduct Racetrack Station" was built with a northbound platform only north of the original one to provide direct access to the racetrack. It is 600 feet.
The original Aqueduct Station was retained because it had platforms in both directions and serves the local community as well as the racetrack.
The Aqueduct Racetrack Station is only open on the days when the horses are running from about 9am to 7pm.
Larry, RedbirdR33
If you read BMT Green Hornet's post, he stated that the old Aqueduct grandstand that was adjacent to the Aqueduct/North Conduit station was demolished and a new one was constructed near the current Aqueduct Race Track station. I never knew that.
If you have a copy of "Change at Ozone Park", check the bottom photo on page 33. That shows the Aqueduct Station in the LIRR days. What puzzles me is that the four track ROW goes to three tracks south of the station. I thought it was four tracks from Ozone Park to Hamilton Beach.
Bill "Newkirk"
That's absolutely ridiculous. One of the problems with Robert Moses was his contempt for rail. New York City has one of the lowest rates of freight rail of any American city. If we had decent freight rail, all of our food could get in that way. We would also have other economic benefits. Truck freight is more expensive, and the lack of real freight rail has hurt industry in New York City.
Robert Moses did better before World War II. He did a pretty good job building parks. If only he stuck to that, New York would be much better off.
Just geography. If Hudson County and the Meadowlands were part of NYC, then its rail freight share would not be so low.
That's not how it worked in the past either.
I find that practice obnoxious, actually. Tractor-trailers belong on interstates-- nowhere else. They should be required to offload their cargo at a transfer warehouse near the interstate exit. How I long for an increase in rail freight!
Each transfer like that is going to cost money, extra costs that will be passed onto consumers.
Does anyone know of a good history that explains the demise of all those old freight operations on the West Side of Manhattan (street-level, not the High Line)? I would imagine that most of that freight came in by car ferry, but were there connections from the West Side New York Central to the street-level tracks?
I think there have been studies of the Brooklyn waterfront lines, but I don't know of any covering Manhattan.
Tied in with the non-use of the Poughkeepsie Bridge, it's a wonder any freight gets into the City at all.
Using the West Side route now used by Amtrak and reopening the High Line might remove hundreds of trucks from the river crossings.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
The street level route was the predecessor to the High Line and replaced the High Line. There were definitely spurs and the line did connect up to the line that runs under what is now Riverside Park. The route that it took south of the 60th Street Yard was 11th Avenue, then the street level 30th Street Yard, then 10th Avenue, West Street, Canal Street and Hudson Street. The freight terminal was where the Holland Tunnel exit helix has been since May 14, 1958. This was previously the site of St. John's Park, hence the name St. John's Park Freight Terminal, the name of the terminal occupying the superblock between Spring, West, Washington and Clarkson Streets to which the High Line used to run.
DIVERGENCE: St. John's park was named for St. John's Church, across Varick Street, which was demolished when Varick was widened in 1917 to build the Seventh Avenue subway. It is commemorated in the tiles at Canal Street on the 1&9.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
That's really funny. The High Line is an elevated railway to nowhere. There are very good reasons why the freight lines stopped using it.
Robert Moses is infamous only because New Yorkers are a tad provincial and think that if NYC is getting highways that are just like everywhere else, there must be something wrong with the guy who planned them.
Wasn't his job to plan highways and other people's jobs to vet the plans? That's why there is no highway connecting the Holland Tunnel with the Williamsburg or Manhattan Bridge, or a highway connecting the Williamsburg Bridge with the Interboro Parkway, or why 295 was never finished across 211 or 212 St. in Queens to the Cross Island Parkway. Most of the others are in reasonable locations: the Cross Bronx connects to the GW Bridge; maybe the Hutchinson River Parkway isn't needed, but it was there in the 1920s I believe. Maybe the Bruckner wasn't needed, except the Food Distribution Center for NYC is near there (Hunt's Point).
Minneapolis and St. Paul, to take one simple example, also has highways crisscrossing the Twin Cities, and some people may not like them, but they don't need a symbolic devil to hate just because he helped modernize the city.
Maybe we should scapegoat the guy who decided that the east-west streets were to be 1/20 mile apart, and the north south streets are 3/20 mile apart. What would Manhattan have been like if it were the other way: 35 one-way avenues, and 80 two-way wide crosstown Streets?
Moses' pal Ike Eisenhower is to thank for that.
Robert Moses was Parks Commissioner of New York City. His job was to plan parks.
According to Caro, one of the reasons the Henry Hudson Parkway runs through Inwood Hill Park is so it could receive funding as a park access road -- never mind that there's no access to the park from the parkway.
Baloney!!! That is the major asset of the parkway system. Could you just imagine the Southern and Northern States with one tractor trailer after another just like the LIE? It is a shame they now allow school buses and pickup trucks. And removing the wooden lights, wooden guardrails, and replacing the old fashioned signs is a crime. I do know it was done for safety reasons but sometimes you need a tradeoff.
It's been alleged on this board before that Robert Moses *deliberately* designed the underpasses leading to state beaches with such low headroom that buses couldn't get through them, so that no public transit could run to the "public" beaches, and people who couldn't afford cars couldn't get there.
Thats because there are no overpasses to deal with.
The main intent was always to keep buses (and those people who might be on the buses) away. How easy is it to use a bus to get from the city to any of the state parks that were built under Moses' tenure? Try getting to Jones Beach from the LIE.
So there goes that idea.
Exit 30 Glen Cove Road South, East on Old Country Road, South on Merrick Ave, Straight Down to Merrick Road, West on Merrick Road Briefly for Meadowbrook Parkway South.
-Chris
Given Big Bob The Builder's ego, one would suppose that he'd be greatly pleased to know that people are still talking about him so much in any context.
School buses regularly use the parkways now.
A bus company that wanted to provide service to Jones Beach.
As it stands, Long Island Bus runs service to Jones Beach from various places in Nassau County, connecting to the LIRR and to most other LIBus routes (thus putting it within one fare of NYC if these buses charge regular LIB fares).
There's a demand for HSR in this country but no investment in it. The old adage "you gotta spend money to make money" still applies . . .
How come in spite of the demand for airline service, the airlines are all going broke again?
Can't use the supply/demand argument for transportation, unfortunately.
Too much supply.
In addition, the low-cost carriers are shaking up the whole fare structure that had kept the legacy carriers profitable.
Nonsense. If the airlines cannot curtail their supply and thus not waste money, then they are out of control. However, I suspect that this is very much not the case.
In addition, the low-cost carriers are shaking up the whole fare structure that had kept the legacy carriers profitable
They're starting to lose money too.
Not to mention that if this were truly the case, then they would be able to take over the routes of those other airlines and negotiate lower landing fees.
They're starting to lose money too.
LCC's like Southwest, JetBlue and Air Tran aren't making as much as they had been, but aren't losing money either. What's happened is that the legacy carriers are cutting some advance purchase fares to LCC levels in a desparate attempt to retain market share. It's not a smart move in the long run because the legacy carriers' costs per seat-mile are almost uniformly higher than for the LCC's.
Also 135 is out of the way (coming from the city), If you look at a map of Nassau, it extends the mileage and time.
Moses was not evil in fact he came out of the progressive school which said that people can be helped by government that is rational and applies science to people's problems. the problem it seems is that Moses found a way to finance his projects without having anyone vote on them. As a result he became the "Masterbuilder" answerable to no one. He then began building without regard to anyone's opinion other than "traffic flow".
Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutley.
Vince
That statement implies that those who believe that government is ineffective at solving people's problems are evil. I fall into that category, and I don't think that I'm evil.
My point is that Moses was not acting out of evil intentions. The progressive school of thought actually accomplished quite a bit in imporving people's lives in this country. Many people now feel that government's role in helping people should be curtailed to the extent possible (either because of inefficieny or the corruption systemic to large govenmental programs or other reasons). That is not an evil viewpoint either, merely a different viewpoint.
I will say parenthetically that without government involvement (clearing right of ways, subsisdies, etc no railroad, certianly now railroad in the environs of NYC could ever have been built. While owened by private entities the costs of each the IRT where borne (or at least guaranteed by the City.
But more to my main point, the holding of one view of government's role in helping people does not make anyone evil or virtuous. To demonize the other point of view is demogogury (Sp ?) which leads people to false conclusions.
Vince
Not true. Most of the railroads were built without government involvement.
So the idea of regular bus service from Nassau points to JB was kind of a moot point. It is true that he blocked the LIRR from building a spur from Freeport to the beach.
And it is also true that he built JB and Sunken meadows and the other Long Island parks for the middle classes, not the masses. Moses did not want to see these beaches become another Coney Island or Rockaway. I cannot comment on his attitude toward minorities, but he was definitely not a friend of poor people of any ethnic/racial background.
Vince
There is not.
What about regular bus service from NYC itself?
NYC residents were, after all, the audience Moses had in mind when he built Jones Beach. Or, rather, NYC residents with cars.
Transit access to all state parks would be nice but wholly impractical, given their dispersion.
what we did get was a completion of routes...
1)6th ave subway express tunnel/Chrystie st subway
2)11th street cut
3)Smith st subway connection to Culver El
4)IND Fulton st subway to Fulton El and the Rockaway line
What the MTA did after Moses...
1)63rd st subway and tunnel[not compleated]
2)Southeast Queens line[Archer ave subway,never completed]
3)Second ave subway[three sections, not completed]
4]Utica ave,Nostrand ave,Ave C,Long Island Expressway,and Rodgers ave rebuild =never funded...
Whats THE difference between now and when MOSES ran the TBTA?
Nothing.
some things never change,I guess....just different labels.
Don't forget about the projects . . .
There are very valid reasons to value one's property at greater than market rates, and the only person entitled to question those reasons is the property owner himself. Property is not money in a bank account, freely interchangeable with the same quantity of money in a different bank account.
If I buy a house next door to my ailing grandmother, it's worth more than market value to me.
If I buy an apartment around the corner from the shul, it's worth more than market value to me.
If my store has been selling merchandise at a loss for its first three years to build up a customer base, and the store is about to become profitable, it's worth more than market value to me.
This causes a problem for building roads only because we first decide where the road will go and then figure out how to obtain the property. If instead we first ascertained how much each plot of land would cost to buy (by asking the owners for binding quotes), we might then find that it would be cheaper to go around (or underneath!) a highly valued piece of property than to raise our offer. And the property owners themselves would have an incentive to fairly estimate the value of their land, since they'd be competing with their neighbors to sell.
So you mean the 2nd Ave Subway and the Ave C Subway and other subway projects that was to happin would had been real by now?
At the time it opened, I'm sure it suited the city's needs just fine. But they didn't plan for the future, and the size of the highways quickly became inadequate. And now we have the Major Deegan Expressway, Cross Bronx Expressway, and Jackie Robinson Parkway.
Robert Moses built hundreds of parks and playgrounds around the city. If you have a playground nearby, chances are it was a Robert Moses project. Millions of children owe their playtime to Robert Moses. I think that more of Robert Moses' projects were good rather than bad, and it's a shame that some never came to pass.
Good Moses projects:
Riverside Park
Lincoln Center
Jones Beach
Southern and Northern State Parkways
Orchard Beach
1939 and 1964 World's Fairs/Flushing Meadows-Corona Park
Verrazano-Narrows Bridge
Whitestone Bridge
the Jamaica Bay
How much of that arrogant reputation was manufactured by Robert Caro? You cannot read The Power Broker without feeling Caro wrote it with an extreme biased vendetta against Moses. As a matter of fact anytime I hear something negative about Moses it is something right from the book. I wonder what his reputation would have been had Caro never written the book.
Riverside Park is a great park, but imagine how much greater it would have been if the waterfront hadn't been set aside for six lanes of traffic.
Not Hell's Kitchen, Lincoln Square.
Hell's Kitchen is 40th to 60th west of 9th Ave and has been slowly gentrifying over the last 20 years.
1. Hell's Kitchen is a different neighborhood, see A1M's post.
2. The area now occupied by Lincoln Center was fairly diverse for its time, not a "Puerto Rican neighborhood."
3. It's not the heart of Midtown, either.
Hell's Kitchen is the extreme West Side of Manhattan from the 20's to the 50's. Into the 1970's it was populated largely by the Irish.
OTOH, even as a roadgeek, I still think that Moses isn't a God of highways. The Cross Bronx Expressway could have used one or two more tunnel segments as mitigation. The BQE could have used more buffer space between the ROW and the residences along the road and the expressway should have been built with better ramps. The LIE could have been designed with rapid transit tracks in the median or along the side of the ROW. As for a line along the Van Wyck, the types of people who would ride transit to an airport during the 1940s and 1950s aren't the types of people who are flying in planes since the Interstate Highway System didn't start becoming useful for interstate travel until the early 1960s and railroads were still getting decent passenger numbers.
The 1950s and 60s were all about cars and the first wave of suburbia. Of course people can blame Robert Moses, but other cities that lacked a figure like him built as many highways as New York City did. Various political figures could have sidelined him, but they chose not. People could have chosen not to run to the suburbs, but when offered nicer, newer housing, many people did so because they wanted the suburban lifestyle.
I can't blame Moses for sweetening the suburbs with tax deductions, paid for by everyone else.
But I can blame him for slicing through existing urban neighborhoods to pave high-speed conduits to the new suburbs.
Once it becomes obvious to the public that public policy is to build up suburbs at the expense of cities, the path of least resistance is to move to the suburbs.
Preferences don't exist in a vacuum. People preferred the suburbs because the cities were under attack.
Preferences don't exist in a vacuum. People preferred the suburbs because the cities were under attack.
In a country with immense political capital available to the people, why didn't anybody fight such policies with the exception of those who residences were condemned for highway construction?
Nobody during that period knew the effects of depopulating the cities, and besides, who would oppose a massive programme that also created jobs for young men and showed the "benefits" of Capitalism when many feared Communism? Plus, many people did find the suburbs aesthetically pleasing. You may not agree, but others did, and many took advantage of the tax dollars that they paid to move there.
BTW, there are various things that I don't know enough about from that period such as bank redlining to make stronger and plausible arguments, so I will apologize in advance if you think the above are weak agreements.
This is a good thread that can easily go in many directions because of the immense sociological issues that go beyond the title; e.g. the *racial* implications of REDLINING (solidifying ghettos, barrios) which is beyond the scope of this board.
Three words: Lower Manhattan Expressway. Remember the pecking order of yesteryear. Took organization to fight that. The people in the Bronx could not organize fast enough, being relatively newly-settled and rather fearful; but the people in Greenwich Village, close-knit and long-established, were better equipped to fight the tidal wave of urban "renewal". A good allegory against all of this (although unintended by the author) is a chapter of "Lord Of The Rings: Return Of The King" titled "The Scouring Of The Shire" . . .
You miss my point.
Forget cities or suburbs -- I'd love to live on a large, isolated plot of land hundreds of miles away from the nearest city, but with my own private plane and pilot that could fly me straight to Manhattan in a few minutes as often as I like. Unfortunately, such a lifestyle would be prohibitively expensive. If only the government would only force everyone to cover some of the costs it would entail!
As it stands, I can't say that this lifestyle is my preference, because I can't (or am unwilling to) pay for it. But if somebody else were required to pay for it, then it might become my preference.
Given the choice of following the new highways (built at public expense) out to the suburbs and taking advantage of tax rebates or remaining in the cities as they were being gutted, many obviously opted for the suburbs. Would they have opted for the suburbs in such great numbers if they alone had had to pay for the new infrastructure that they needed, with no help from those who stayed behind? Would they have opted for the suburbs in such great numbers if the government hadn't taken tax dollars from those who remained in existing housing and given it to those who built new housing? Obviously not.
I don't fault people for taking advantage of tax incentives and giveaways. I fault the policymakers who offer them.
Uhmm , I hate to break it to you , and it may be hard for you to understand seeing that you love city dwelling , but there are plenty people that love the suburbs because of the open spaces , grass , trees , privacy , etc . There are many things the suburbs offer that the city doesn't . And the city is a short train ride away if you want some of the city things .
Please do not make blanket statements such as that wereas you claim the only reason people moved to the suburbs was because the city was in bad shape , or being cut through . There are MANY people that prefer one family homes with a driveway .
That's not the suburbs. That's the country. And that's under attack, too, thanks to the interstates and the sprawl they create.
I live in the suburbs of NJ, and I assure you that grass, trees, privacy, and even the occasional open space does occur in the suburbs. Indeed, sprawl is so sprawling because so much of it consists of gardens and open space and wilderness on private soil: front yards, backyards, golf courses, parking lots, forests, the occassional farm, school lawns, soccer grounds, etc.
Nah, you live in the country. NJ suburbs consist of strip malls, jughandles, SUVs, closely-built McMansions, badly-designed traffic circles, noisy jake-brakes, little-league baseball fields, Acuras and Honda Civics with those extremely annoying buzzing-exhaust-pipes, and lots of traffic jams thanks to the overhead interstates.
Actually, being somewhat familiar with Levittown, I must point out that it now does, to some extent, give the impression of being "green" and lower-density, thanks to its winding streets and (by now) mature tree growth. The suburban 'hood where I live, developed starting in the mid-1960's, has much more of a crowded urban feel than Levittown even though its density is probably half or less.
I love animals but I don't live in the Bronx Zoo.
these public-private governments don't answer to noone except robert moses, and mebbe the governor.
If the LIE hadn't been built, then east-west railway systems would be have been developed to deliver goods to and from LI. This is documented - attempts were made in the 1950's and 1960's to increase railroad mileage but Moses always used the money for his own projects. If the LIE was all about goods, it should have been a commercial-only road or have separate roadways for commercial and private traffic, like the NJ Turnpike.
The LIE is a failure as a travel route. Its clogged with traffic through all of Queens and part of Nassau during daylight hours. I've driven it many, many times and I can't begin to count the number of delivery trucks I've seen stuck in traffic. Unfortunately, Moses made us reliant on vehicular traffic and ensured that rail couldn't be used to transport goods to LI for decades to come.
Sure, I've experienced some backups on the LIE, but they weren't horrible. On weekends I rarely have a problem.
The LIE is a failure as a travel route. Its clogged with traffic through all of Queens and part of Nassau during daylight hours. I've driven it many, many times and I can't begin to count the number of delivery trucks I've seen stuck in traffic. Unfortunately, Moses made us reliant on vehicular traffic and ensured that rail couldn't be used to transport goods to LI for decades to come.
The current RR system on Long Island is biased towards passenger rail operations, and unless four track mainlines would be built in order to avoid operational conflict, don't expect much in terms of freight rail. The lack of any Cross Harbour Rail Tunnel can be blamed on the Port Authority (RM didn't have much to do with), which was commissioned to build one during the 1920s. Car floats across the harbour aren't the best solution for a high-density freight, and Hell's Gate Bridge is cumbersome to use since rail traffic from West of the Hudson River must travel to Selkirk, NY (a bridge in Poughkeepsie was available up until the 1970s) to cross the river. Plus Long Island lacks much of the industries that are rail heavy. New Jersey's convenient access to rail is why it's much easier to set up shop there. Intermodal could work on Long Island, but any location would be subject to NIMBYs and hampered by poor regional rail access.
As for the LIE, there are times that I've found heavy traffic during middays and late nights, and there are some rush hours where I've beaten the subway + bus time (1h 20 min) to the Manhattan (hence why I'm a big advocate of LIRR service from eastern Queens). Traffic on the LIE depends on the day, weather, and accident counts.
I believe that a less-dominant Moses would have resulted in fewer highways, true, but a much better mass transit system. That may not be important in other cities, but it is here. Who knows how much more extensive the subway would have been without Moses' hogging the money.
1)Has the MTA,since taking over the TRIBORO BRIDGE TUNNEL AUTHORITY,built anything of any major importance.
2)Has the MTA built anything of major importance,AND FINISHED IT?
3)Has the MTA built any new subway or commuter rail lines of any real length[6 miles or more] since Moses?
The point is,if Moses put that energy into rail lines...we would have one hell of a rail system.
And if the MTA did the same, we would have one hell of a system,instead of alot of talk....
something to chew on...
Sean@Temple
To be more accurate, it was built with tax dollars; and the PANYNJ on their web site prides themselves over not needing tax revenue and being "self-sufficient". Big monument to hypocrisy there . . .
It was built by a surcharge on airline tickets using JFK, yes a "tax", but a tax on people actually USING the airport, not a blanket tax affecting everyone.
Your statement makes it sound like it was a blanket tax, effecting all taxpayers. There is a big difference.
Still a tax. The PANYNJ prides themselves on not needing tax to support their capital projects; this time, they were caught out there. Whatever happened to "free market", eh? You can argue the same thing about the cigarette tax, that it doesn't affect everyone. Come on.
Your statement makes it sound like it was a blanket tax, effecting all taxpayers. There is a big difference
No, not a big difference. A tax is a tax. The PANYNJ suddenly couldn't build the AirTrain out-of-pocket and trust that the $5 fare could cover all costs?
Yes it is. Read again where I said that the PANYNJ prides themselves on not needing tax revenue of any kind to support themselves in terms of operations and their capital projects. It's on several pages of their website. So what's it gonna be, free market or big government?
it was very clear from the beginning that a surcharge was being added to Kennedy flights to build this . People who used Kennedy paid , people that didn't use it didn't
What does that mean? People who use cigarettes are the only ones that pay tax on cigarettes, people who buy imports are the only ones that pay import duties, ad nauseam. Doesn't make it any less of a tax. Doesn't make the PANYNJ any less hypocritical for accepting that tax revenue instead of putting up their own cash to build Airtrain.
Hardly a hardship on those using Kennedy , and hardly a tax that was "hidden" . If you didn't use the airport , you didn' pay a dime , so no , it was not built using general taxpayer money
Irrelevant. Again, PANYNJ is a self-sufficient organization. They accepted what is tantamount to welfare in order to build the Airtrain. Get it now? Or will you continue to be hypnotized by the arguments of Big Brother.
It's quite relevant because the PANYNJ is publicly admitting to be hypocritical. Even more relevant because the public is saying "so what".
So intra-airport and parking lot travelers can thank subway riders for paying for their rides.
Probably LIRR riders more than subway riders. Anyway, what's the big deal? This fare arrangement was known from the beginning.
OK, one more time:
No, it's not the most logical or fairest place to get the funding from. If you want to follow the gas tax logic, then all of that revenue should have gone right into the actual airport infrastructure that serves the airliners.
What's wrong with getting it from the PANYNJ's kitty proper? They are not short of funds for building large projects. They built the "Waterfront Connection" in New Jersey and they are also putting their money into rehabilitating Hoboken Terminal's ferry slips—all without charging "surcharges" on NJT rail riders, how about that. They got tons of money.
Not all people who use JFK to fly will use the Airtrain. Therefore, those people got ripped off to build a service that they will never use. And that is the vast majority of airline passengers in and out of there.
Of course, if you disagree with any of the above, then you will have to acknowledge the government's, and PANYNJ's, obligation to provide better rail service not only in the tri-state area, but throughout the whole country.
LI got smothered because of the LIE.
Drawning? That's a new word.
No businesses would have set up on LI, because it's traffic would be a nightmare
Traffic's a nightmare now. And there's far less business on the island than compared to decades ago.
To compete with the rest of the country that has good roads , LI needed good roads too
What do you mean "compete with the rest of the country"? LI is not in competition with the rest of the country from an economical perspective. And LI has bad roads. That's why the LIRR for the most part has been kept around.
You know he meant "drowning", and yes we would be. A better response would have been to address his statement, not a trivial typo error.
Traffic's a nightmare now. And there's far less business on the island than compared to decades ago.
How so? Yes, LI's business has shifted from manufacturing and agriculture to service and retail. There is plenty of new office space with big companies on Long Island, and way more retail business.
And LI has bad roads. That's why the LIRR for the most part has been kept around.
And that's the entire point. It would have been unlivable and un workable without the LIE. Our roads are bad, but people here are suggesting that they would have preferred it to be worse, without such major arteries.
Not at all. The LIRR's main purpose is providing access to Manhattan, primarily for daily commuters. Intra-Island and other non-Manhattan traffic isn't enough to keep the system running. Even if Long Island highways were vastly expanded and upgraded, Manhattan's traffic and parking situation would still keep most commuters on the LIRR and therefore would provide the system with its reason for being.
But why is it horrible? Because of the LIE and other arteries feeding cars into Manhattan.
I meant by TRAIN....not truck.
Ok, now I'm really lost with myself. I kind of don't know what to think..........
Don't dare think of LA as the ideal. They can't get rail built fast enough to have people and goods bypass those clogged-up roads. Do you really want "the oyland" to be like LA?? Think before you answer.
He wasn't asking for an LA type road. He stated that if it hadn't been for the Northern State and the Southern State existing, the LIE would have had to have been larger to accomodate the traffic that are covered by those roads. That was in respose to NIMBY's suggestion that it was "stupid" to have the Northern state and the LIE. Think before you answer.
But wasn't he? Consider all the previous replies about how dependent LI is on the LIE—and an offhand mention of a double-deck expressway can be implied as desirable, the existence of NSP and SSP notwithstanding.
Robert Moses was one part of it. The ENTIRE country is auto oriented, not just LI. Robert Moses didn't cause the entire country to become auto oriented. Actually, transit-wise we are much better off than many parts of the country (even if even our system leads lots to be desired). You can't blame Robert Moses for a phenomena that affects the whole country.
NSP is a total waste b/c it parallels LIE.
The Northen State was built way before the LIE, and only as a passenger scenic route, and the LIE was built as part of the interstate highway system, with all traffic in mind.
Also, both the Northern State and Southern State were much smaller when Robert Moses built them. The Bethpage State parkway is a good exampole of what all the parkways were built to look like.
And if NSP was built before LIE, then why the hell did we not just extend NSP and raise the bridge clearances!? It would've been so much cheaper and much better than having 2 damn highways right next to eachother.
Four legs good; two legs better.
there was a demand by people for cars , he just gave them what they wanted
What's that got to do with highways, really . . . ? Not to mention subsidizing those highways?
BTW, there's a demand by people for heroin also; should we give them what they want?
It's not just a matter of bridge clearances. The NSP does not comply with Interstate Highway standards, due to its sharp curves, ramp layouts, and probably other things, and the cost of bringing it into compliance would have been enormous. In addition, the NSP ends abruptly in Hauppague, which even back when the LIE was built was too far west.
Compliance with Interstate standards is necessary in order to get federal funding. In addition, the NSP as it now stands is woefully inadequate to handle LIE-style traffic volumes, especially if you add commercial vehicles to the mix.
Wanted to? Most had no choice in the matter. Public transport was being cut to the bone at the expense of this "demand" that was really the demand of you-know-who. Remember, less than half of people in NYC own cars, because of a choice existing.
People were buying cars because they wanted them. Transit was cut because less people were using it because they had cars. You make it sound like transit was cut before people had cars, and only had to get cars because there was no transit. Not so. Private companies still ran transit at the time cars were become popular. Private companies run business to make a PROFIT, when there is no profit, there is no business, and service is cut. By the time pub;ic transportation came under public ownnership, the car already had a stronghold.
Remember, less than half of people in NYC own cars, because of a choice existing
The only reason for that is because a car is basically a hardship in the city, not because public transportation is so readily available in the city. If car ownership in the city was not such a pain in the @$$, then more people would have cars. The "choice" of public transportation makes it possible to not own a car in the city. It's not necessarily a choice done because someone doesn't actually ewant a car.
The only reason for that is because a car is basically a hardship in the city, not because public transportation is so readily available in the city. If car ownership in the city was not such a pain in the @$$, then more people would have cars. The "choice" of public transportation makes it possible to not own a car in the city. It's not necessarily a choice done because someone doesn't actually ewant a car.
Exactly, finding parking is difficult, paying for parking is expensive, parking violation tickets are exensive (some of which occur because the person didn't wake up in time to move their car across the street), tolls are expensive and insurance is rediculous. Why not save several hundred a month and use the mass transit? Im sure if auto ownership was cheaper in this area that alot more vehicles would be on the road.
If car ownership in the city was not such a pain in the @$$, then more people would have cars.
Nonsense. These people can easily afford to have cars, not to mention afford paying for places off the street to park those cars. They live in NYC, FCOL. Can't add two and two together?
How , using Robert Moses tactics ?
The Northern State is not a total waste . First of all , it existed BEFORE the LIE . Second of all , the LIE would be 12 lanes wide if there was no Northern .
As for Robert Moses , he didn't cause the country's orientation to autos , he was just one man changing the face of the NY metro area . The entire country was converting to autos . You can't blame the reliance on autos on Robert Moses . This happened all over the country . New York was just one part of it .
The entire country was building an interstate highway system then too , not just NY was getting better roads and bridges . This country would not be what it is today without the interstate highway system which NY has a small part of . Europe even has the Autobahn .
Don't think NY would not have a main artery through it if Robert Moses didn't exist , someone else would have done it .
Most of his visions and projects are not bad , his tactics were . But no one can deny we would not be the great city we are now without many of his projects . There was a demand for these projects . It's not like Robert Moses was some sort of self appointed dicatator that just decided to build roads and bridges .
True. That was Eisenhower and the lobbies that propped him up. Moses only caused his little corner of the empire to be so auto-oriented.
I know that. I said he was responsible for LIs shift to auto use. Why? B/c he made their use more convinient by building roadways in which they could be used more efficiently.
But are you doing the speed limit?
And let's say there was a direct train from your station to NY Penn? Add in a 100 mph speed limit on the rails instead of an 80 mph one?
Did you add in time to find a parking space in Manhattan, too? (If you were on the train, you wouldn't have to worry about that.)
An intermodal facility could easily be built at the Pilgrim site, with little NIMBY problems. Why? Parsons Brinkerhoff is working to figure out a way to get the trucks to the LIE. So far, the Sagtikos Parkway is the way, which works fine.
And even if the LIE hadn't been built, then the intermodal yard would probably still have been built, a LONG time ago. And plus, this site is on the main line. Just add one track for the entire length of the line to pilgrim and there you go. Yes, we either need to build the cross harbor tunnel, or tie in a freight tunnel with the new hudson river tunnel for NJT.
Yest they were , but there are 10's of thousands more stores on LI now , there are thousands more restaurants (yes the food must get there too), there are millions more people living on LI now .
Again , there is much to be desired with LI freight operations , but trucks are important too .
The amount of business and population explosion that now exists on LI could not have been sustained had it not been for the LIE .
Why can't you take the train? If the LI rail network wasn't forced to stop progressing b/c of Robert Moses
Oh please.
DO you really believe that it a family on a trip to Niagra Falls would rather take the train than their own car? You and R-143 were arguing out the freight portion of the LIE, but what about the cars?
And it's not just City to LI or LI to city of LI to off the island completely scenarios either. My girlfriend lives in Center Moriches, but works in Islandia. Her commute is about 1/2 hour by LIE. There is no way that could be shortened by train. First of all there is no train. Second of all, her commute would be three times that amount by local roads.
Since there's no train, how can you tell?
I'm just saying, it could've happened if Robert Moses hadn't taken away from railroads. Hell, that would've been the express service for the main and monatuk lines.
Do you really think those people taking planes will take Amtrak instead?
The LIRR serves the Hamptons well, there is no need for Amtrak here other than railfan fantasy. There are connections at Penn. Amtrak wouldn't come to LI more than once or twice a day. The LIRR serves the Hamptons all day. Amtrak works well and is needed where there is no other rail service, or where there is no regular (and frequent) commuter service. And before you bring up Metro North, the only reason Amtrak makes a few stops in Metro North Serivce territory is because it is going through there anyway for it's longer distance trains.
He clearly stated that Amtrak is for places that don't have commuter service. What commuter service runs from Boston to Maine?
And plus, we could also have a much better ferry system. The way LI Sound is set up, it's just waiting for a first class ferry system. Have some car ferries, and the family drivin from Long Island to Niagra Falls could have a quick ferry ride from one of several possible locations to I-95 in Ct.
Long ISLAND. Surrounded by water and as a bonus, has rails line crossing the enitre length. All we needed for freight was a few ports and then a few intermodal yards. And we could've also had trains runnin north south, but Robert Moses(as well as several others) screwed us out of that too. We could also have more buses.
LI is a small ass place. We didn't need a big interstate and then more parkways to become this big.
Trains on the Narrows Bridge....
The 2nd system lines to get built....
Let a subway ROW be placed on the LIE..
A rail tunnel under the Narrows for subway service....
He managed to insulate himself from all manor of public inquiries...by creating levels of bullshit in his deptments,so he didn't have to answer to anybody.
Very much like the MTA today.
And those projects were WANTED and NEEDED,but Moses was going to the highest forms of government to get his projects pushed thru,while the T.A was too weak willed and limpwrist to put any real challange to his"rule"....
So they took what ever crumbs dropped from Moses table...
Which brings us to the issue of the 500 million dollars the T.A managed to secure during the 50's....
By international standards, that's pretty much - errrmm - standard. The only places where you'll find more than 3 lanes each way tend to be around junctions and on really horribly congested sections.
There's also that strange one called the A38(M) in Birmingham, England, which most of the time is a regular 3 lanes each way effort, but in rush hour becomes 4 lane in the peak direction and 2 in the counter-peak direction. Because of the drainage system along the centre lane, motorcycles aren't allowed on it whilst it's in operation. In case anyone is having difficulty envisaging a 7-lane single carriageway motorway, here's a pic:
Source: Pathetic Motorways, http://pathetic.endoftheinternet.org/
Oh and if you think it's a fearsome road already, you should see the junction at the outer end of it (officially called Gravelly Hill Interchange, but better known as Spaghetti Junction, for obvious reasons):
There were also plans for another north south highway. Rt 101 in Port Washington was supposed to be a highway down to Freeport, and north to New Rochelle via a bridge from Sands Point.
Another was extending I-495 to Orient Point and building a bridge to either Groton or Watch Hill. This was Robert Moses' plan.
A 4th plan was to convert William Floyd Parkway into an expressway(either to the LIE or Sunrise Highway) and extend it over LI Sound to New Haven onto I-91. This means William Floyd Parkway would be I-91.
But we don't have the bridge, but we still have the crossing. The Port Jeff-Bridgeport Ferry. It works fine.
The ferry's a nice ride, but it's scarcely a substitute for a cross-Sound bridge. Its vehicular capacity is a tiny fraction of what a bridge could carry and the cost of transporting vehicles is way above a bridge toll.
I'm not so sure there'd be much additional through traffic if there were a bridge. People travelling between New England and points south wouldn't gain much if anything because they'd have to go right through NYC.
Don't you mean "sprawl" . . . ? And is it necessarily a good thing?
Speaking of choices, let me add that NYC is blessed in the knowledge that you can live and function effectively without a car - if you choose. I live in California now and if I tried to use mass transit only, I would be a hermit. The places you can go for $2.00 in NYC, oh my, where I live, that would get me to the closest 7/11 and I'd still have to walk back. The oil companies could jack the gas prices to $5.00/gallon here and the majority would still pay it simply because we have no choices. BART, here in the bay area cost too much and doesn't go anywhere you want to or have to go. What they are now calling a subway system in LA, goes to nowhere. They don't get it out here in Cali. Appreciate what you have, NYC. Moses did a lot more good than bad. You'll understand the minute you leave NYC and live elsewhere.
You just dont get it do you? You would need the same amount of trucks as we have no to deliver from let's say Pilgrim to let's say Riverhead, or anywhere else on the Island. You need good roads, in addition to good rail service. What's the difference if the truck that is delivering CD's to Best Buy comes from out of state or from Mitchel Field, it still has to get to it's destination away from the tracks.
The local artery roads are a nightmare now WITH the LIE around, just imagine some of the main local roads WITHOUT the LIE.
1. Port Washington North industrial park-there is a path that is almost entirely clear from the LIRR PW station to this industrial park. LIRR could easily extend the branch to the area, while also extending passenger service.
2. Roslyn industrial park-trains can unload at a site near the roslyn station, and the trucks could carry the stuff the what...5 or 6 miles, if that, to the industrial park via west shore rd.
There are many places in Suffolk county that could definately do without the LIE as far as deliveries go.
Sure , clog up the already congested roads with more traffic. Have you ever been on Jericho Tpk or Sunrise Highway ? They are a nightmare WITH the LIRR , imagine the traffic nightmare without it. You really have no idea what traffic would be like on LI if it wasn't for the LIE .
"there are many industries along the LIRR"
Uhmm , there is much more to trucks than industry . How do you think your TV got to the PC Richards ? How do you think your TV dinner got to your Stop and Shop ? How so you think your shirt got to The Gap ? Railroads are great for many things , but door to door merchandising isn't one of them . Freight RR's are great for industry , yes , that is true . I agree , there is much that could be done with the LIRR (NYA)'s freigh operations , however merchandising isn't one of them . At least 50% of LIE's truck traffic could not use the Railroad , and all those trucks would be pushed on local roads making a traffic and safety nightmare .
And this is coming from a train lover . You have to be realistic .
"There are many places in Suffolk that could definitely do without the LIE as far as deliveries go"
Again no , The rails can't pull up to every retail store in Suffolk . Sorry . RR's are great for industry and bulk goods , but do nothing for retail .
The rail spur right off the main line that goes right next to PC Richards(maybe not, but it could've).
I know that not everything can go by rail for the entire trip, but with proper planning, the majority of it could've. And still, almost all freight can easily make the majority of the trip via rail, to be transfered to truck only towards the end of the trip.
Roosevelt Field Mall could easily be getting rail deliveries, as well as the Source Mall.
I'm saying if the LI rail network was improved, and if there was an intermodal yard, then we wouldn't have needed the LIE. Trucks would just use the local roads from the intermodal yard. And if the LI rail network was improved, the traffic on those local roads wouldn't be so seveare cuz rail would've been more appealing to those who now drive.
Well, great for that one , but 99% of the electronic stores on LI are no where near the LIRR .
Roosevelt field is one mall, the Source is one other , there are scores of malls on LI that are no where near a rail spur .
Again , we are in a different era . Our lifestyles are different than those in the 1920's and earlier . Rail is very important , but trucks are too . Everything is fast paced now . A truck leaving with mrchandise as we speak full of merchandise somewhere across the country will be here days earlier than the same merchandise being transferred from a truck to a railcar right now too , in the same location across the country bound for another switching yard in another state , bound for another switching yard
in a different state again , bound for the interchange at Fresh Pond (another switching yard) , bound for anintermodal yard somewhere on the Island bound for another truck that will finally take it to the LI store . It would take much longer that way . Time is money .
Besides , how many intermodal yards do you expect there would be on Long Island ? There better be at least 40-50 of them all over Brooklyn , Queens, Nassau, and Suffolk if you don't want those trucks to use an expressway to get from their intermodal yard to the stores .
See how unbarable your local roads will be through your quiet neighborhoods .
I understand retail is better served by truck, but the point is, it could still be shipped for the most part by rail. I understand speed is everything, but the better things usually are either more expensive, take longer, or sometimes both(better b/c less traffic and less pollution).
And there only needs to be a few intermodal facilities.
1. Pilgrim
2. Mitchell Field area
3. MAYBE somewhere in The Bronx, like near Hunts Point.
I doubt you'll find any shopping malls anywhere in the country that get deliveries by rail, even in the most freight-rail-intensive areas like metro Chicago or Houston.
You betcha. They can't get Metrolink extensions and "Gold Lines" built fast enough.
Wow, with all those long freights going out to Roosevelt Field via the Hempstead Line/Central Branch can you just imagine what that would do to the Hempstead Line capacity. It will drive all the commuters back onto the LIE. Not to mention the l-o-n-g waits at the railroad crossings.
By the way, by you promoting replacing trucks with trains, I would stay away from any Teamsters!!!
They're trying to do everything with trucks, though, on the other hand. Is that the right way to go?
Engineers are not people?
And as far as the non-engineers go, that's the beauty of a train . . .
Yeah, and even with the LIE and no lights, it takes hours to travese the island.
With a better rail network on LI, I bet we'd have Amtrak service too!
We don't need Amtrak service, Amtrak is for areas without good commuter operations, and for long distance service. Any benefit Amrak would have on LI, is already handled well by the LIRR, and a great connection at Penn Station.
As a railfan, sure I would love to see Amtrak trains scooting by, but get real.
For commuting, there always has been the LIRR, which got screwed over big time by the LIE.
Uhm, all of the abandoned lines on LI were abandoned WAY before the LIE was even a thought. No line has been abandoned since the LIE came into operation. In fact, many of them are being run with more service than at the time the LIE was built.
We also used to have a good base for an intra-island service, but more highways just screwed that up
LIRR service was never intraisland based. In fact it's the design of the LIRR (from the 1800's) that it is an east-west operation. The highways didn't screw that up, it's the original design of the LIRR that was built that way.
I meant from north shore to south shore
If so then why do we have the Downeaster?
"Uhm, all of the abandoned lines on LI were abandoned WAY before the LIE was even a thought. No line has been abandoned since the LIE came into operation. In fact, many of them are being run with more service than at the time the LIE was built. "
Well, you got me there. Still, the construction of all these damn parkways and highways and what not has prevented the uprising of a successful intra-island rail network, which is needed.
Because MaineTrak isn't a good commuter operation. :-)
Trains have numerous advantages over buses, but the opposite is true too.
Look at the route map available at http://escapemaker.com/adirondacktrailways/
Significant cities in New York such as Binghamtom, Ithaca Cooperstown, and Oneonta, and many small intermediate towns, would not have any public transportation out of town if they had to rely on train service.
The demand is there for bus service several times a day, but not for train service.
I know it's like a broken record, but you STILL need good roads (or at least one).
Why is it that hadn't it been for the LIE, all items that are not even delivered by rail anywhere in the country (not even in the prime freight hotbeds) would have miraculously been delivered by rail on Long Island had it not been for the LIE?
I'd wonder if the PABT would have been built at 42 Street?
The majority of what is delivered now could've easily been delivered by rail using these three lines, plus any of the other LIRR lines(and the CRRLI).
No it could not have . Again , you need door to door delivery . Railroads are great for bulk deliveries (such as commodities) and industry . They suck for retail .
Arghh!! But these items are not shipped anywhere in the country by rail, why would it just be done miraculously on LI? You are also blaming the freight practices around the country on one road on LI.
Y o u ' r e m i s s i n g t h e p o i n t , s o n n y . . .
If the railroads were permitted to play a greater role, then no such thing as the eighteen-wheeler would have had to come into existence. The present-day peril of having to weave in and out of such behemoths with our cars would not exist. We'd be a happier and more relaxed bunch of Subtalkers, who would not be showing our closet NIMBYish traits ;->
And yes, this is a problem unique to LI. Caused by the LIE. (I'm talking about urban sprawl, BTW . . .)
You said in your other post:
If the railroads were permitted to play a greater role, then no such thing as the eighteen-wheeler would have had to come into existence. The present-day peril of having to weave in and out of such behemoths with our cars would not exist.
With that you brought up the whole country. Most of the items delivered by truck on LI are delivered by truck across the country. People are suggesting that items that are not delivered anywhere else in the country by rail should be on LI, and LI alone. Again, there is more that can be done with LI's freight RRing, however
freight RRing is great for low cost bulk goods, not for retailing goods, the bulk of what the LIE carries. There are no bulk goods on LI. There is no agriculture left (to speak of), coal, etc on LI.
And yes, this is a problem unique to LI. Caused by the LIE. (I'm talking about urban sprawl, BTW . . .)
Sprawl is not unique to LI, Much of the country has sprawl. California, Florida, Las Vegas, everywhere there is sprawl. DOn't think LI is unique with that.
And as for the dependence on cars, that's also not unique to LI.
The goods distribution patterns would have been different also. Maybe the trend towards mega stores would have still played out...but in this case, yeah, they would have been situated near (or morphed into) the "freight houses". Even along the elevated Babylon branch the earlier steet-level trackage could have been left in service for freight service. At least, the many freight sidings would have remained. Most of them were seperated from street traffic anyway. You can see them today, and it shows how well the railroad constructed them.
Even today I would think there should be some thought given to this idea again. Especially along the Mainline.
Then how come I see more and more trucks on the roads . . . ?
You know why? Because commodities have to get into LI and waste has to come out! Commodities (food, clothing) are shipped in by multiple trucks when they coulda come in by train! Same goes for garbage, since there aren't any more local landfills; all going out by truck because foolish NIMBYs whine about them "trash trains". That's a lot of moolah wasted on them trucks, you know . . .
Both LI and NY have become more retail and service oriented
And this is a good thing? On the world scene, you aren't worth a darn unless you're producing something.
Because most retail does not move well by freight.
Same goes for garbage, since there aren't any more local landfills; all going out by truck because foolish NIMBYs whine about them "trash trains".
Trash is the New York and Atlantic's (former LIRR freight division) bigest commditiy that they move.
And this is a good thing? On the world scene, you aren't worth a darn unless you're producing something.
True, but you can't blame that on LI either. NY has shifted, the entire country has shifted. A good thing, no, but you can't blame the LIE for that. (Remeber the LIE is the background of this debate). Long Island's shift is no different than Ny itself, and the rest of the country.
You must not know how to drive well.
#3 West End Jeff
Wow, how did LI do without the LIE before it was built? (Answer: LIRR, PRR, NYNH&H, NYC.) And the NY&A gets stuff past the LIE nowadays when nothing moves on it.
Wow, how did the entire country do without the interstate highway system, should I point you to the fallen flags website?
You are blaming the entire country's transportation shortfalls on one road on LI.
Did quite well, didn't it.
should I point you to the fallen flags website?
For what purpose . . . ?
You are blaming the entire country's transportation shortfalls on one road on LI
I am? Don't misquote me, please.
Yes, for that time...but in 2004, we should not be living with the amount of technolgy and lifestyles that people were living 250 years ago...unless we live in Afganastan.
For what purpose . . . ?
LI's dependence on roads, and less of use of RR's is a national occurance, not just LI's.
"If railroads built this country, why can't they systain it?"
It was a different era . There were no personal vehicles in the 1800s . You had to rely on a train or stagecoach . There were no supermarkets , you walked to your town general store . There was no BJ's , you went to your town general store . There was no Applebee's , you walked to your town saloon or restaurant . There was no Best Buy , you didn't even buy your fancy little electronic items at the local general store because there was no such items - you played your violin at home for music , and went to bed when it got dark .
How do you think all the items get to your stores , restaurants , bars , etc ? The train can't bring them everywhere if they wanted to . Trucks are a necessity for our current lifestyles .
Yes , railroads built this country , but it was a much simpler country that the rails were laid through .
What are horses and bicycles? Not to mention the shoe-leather express.
There were indeed gasoline-powered automobiles in the USA as far back as 1888. Therefore, the statement is technically not true.
And I thought we were a part of the whole country. Maybe they should have made all of Long Island like the community near Lancaster, PA. Geee, and I'm not even Amish.
There were indeed gasoline-powered automobiles in the USA as far back as 1888. Therefore, the statement is technically not true.
Oh please, and what millionaire owned one?
Railroads did not build this country until the 1800's. Last I checked, we became an independent country in 1776.
Back in those days, the mode of choice was water transportation. Thats why cities sprung up along the coast and along major rivers. New York had its harbor. So did Boston. Albany and Philly were just upriver from the oceans. Soon we started building canals. The Erie Canal opened up interior NYS. The Chesapeake and Ohio canal was going to be the main route to the west from DC area.
But that all changed with the coming of railroads, which were faster and more flexible then water transport. You could build a railroad line straight from Richmond to DC instead of having to go down the potomac into chesapeake bay and then all the way back up the James River from Norfolk. You wouldn't have to go from DC to Cincy via Norfolk, Miami, and New Orleans. In fact, wherever you could build a rail line, you could send goods. But there was still a need for water transport...you could still put an awful lot more on a ship then in a rail car. So if you had to ship a HUGE quantity of something between two points with water access, then the ship made sense. A smaller or more time sensitive thing was sent by rail.
Then in the 1900's, another "modal shift" occurred, this time from rail to roads. Roads already existed, and needed to be improved. You can build a road for a lot less money then you can build a railroad. Vehicles could literally go anywhere. In some cases, it still makes sense to ship stuff by rail....like big, bulk quantities, where time isn't as much of a concern. Roads are flexible...the truckload of stuff can leave its origin as soon as it is loaded, and go straight to its destination without any detours, and then it can unload. Much faster then sending a load to an intermodal facility to be placed in a train, or sending a train car from a spur into a yard where it waits to be placed on a train, then the train is sent to its destination where the cargo once again experiences delay while the train is broken up and the car is either sent up a spur to its destination or offloaded into a truck. In today's "just in time" delivery economy, the rail won't cut it for many kinds of deliveries. But for big, bulk quantities, where time isn't an issue, rail still has a purpose. Or if you have many, many small shipments that all just happen to travel over the same long route.
Long Island isn't really all that long, compared to the rest of the country. And another thing of interest...the average trip length on the LIE is about 4 or 5 exits. A lot of it local traffic, that wouldn't be able to use rail anyway.
My point...modal shifts occur, and the shift occurred from rail to truck/auto, for all but large bulk quantities a long time ago.
I wonder what the next modal shift will be and when it will be? My guess...segway.
As for passanger travel, trains make sense where you have A LOT Of people that are traveling the same route. Like in Manhattan. Or Long Island going into Manhattan. But in spread out areas, where people choose to live because of their own personal reasons and have every right to live where they want to live, mass transit doesn't make as much sense. True, there are side effects of personal transportation in vehicles, but i'd rather deal with the traffic jams on Long Island then be forced to live in Brooklyn or Manhattan....just too crowded for me, and a lot of the housing isn't to my liking. I've lived in an apartment building built in the 1920's....and i'll take new construction anyday over the former.
Yes, the seas laid the groundwork, but the country expanded the greatest during the RR boom. And I'm glad you brought up water transportation. Being an island, we are surrounded by water. What does that mean? Well, according to the course of history, we are supposed to be able to thrive without a highway or even a railroad b/c we are surrounded by water. That's how every past civilization was started and supported, waterways. After water, was rail. Well, there we go. Then roads. Well, there we have it. The entire system needed for a successful civilization with no LIE. Goods and materials are shipped via water or rail, and then transfered to trucks which use local roads to complete the trip. No LIE needed.
"the average trip length on the LIE is about 4 or 5 exits. A lot of it local traffic, that wouldn't be able to use rail anyway. "
How so?
"But in spread out areas, where people choose to live because of their own personal reasons and have every right to live where they want to live, mass transit doesn't make as much sense."
You and I both know, Long Island is not a rural place. And we used to have an intra-island rail network in the most rural of areas, but the highways ended that quickly. This is why I keep saying we need a system of ferries, buses, and trains. It covers almost all bases.
We did? Let's see, all the LIRR lines are geared to east-west traffic, let's see....that's how they were designed and built a centry-plus ago.
Most of the lines that were abandoned were abandoned in the 30's and earlier - long before the LIE was even a thought.
Of the LIRR lines abandoned more recently....let's see, the Rockaway Branch, well that was also abandoned before the LIE, but the subway still operates the bulk of it, and the remaining portion of the ROck Branch was already have dead for decades before.
The fact is that since the LIE was built, most lines have MORE passenger service, not less. The Babylon, Port Jefferson, and ROnkonkoma Branches being the most noticable, but all share in the prosperity since. DO I have to break out my 1972 LIRR schedules to show you that Montauk Branch was basically being run almost like the Greenport to Ronkonkoma section at the time, and the Greenport line even has an extra round trip now compared to then.
Construction of the LIE resulted in more and more people moving to Suffolk County, which in turn stimulated demand for more LIRR service.
1. Oyster Bay to Far Rockaway
2. Mitchell Field to Creedmore
3. Montauk to Greenport(and some running Sag Harbor to Greenport)
Yeah, they were all abandonned long before expressways and parkways reached those areas, but those parkways and expressways are what prevented their rebirth.
Well, sort of, but I don't quite agree. If we agree that water, rail, and road each have a certain niche of the transportation market, then look at how each system was developed over the years. With water, first the boats used sails and sailed the seas, oceans, harbors, etc. Then came the steamboat which allowed boats to go up and down rivers much more easily then in the past (before that, there were barges that were literally pushed upstream by humans using poles). Then somewhere in there people had this grand idea to build their own rivers, called canals. And then they decided to build canals with locks, so that boats could be raised and lowered.
With railroads, RR technology expanded greatly from the days of steam trains and the original 1836 LIRR, to the present day HSR like Acela Express and TGV, etc. I'm sure I don't need to explain the history on this board!
With roads, we started out with dirt paths (and in some cases put an inch of pavement over it and thats all...like in Boston!), then we started paving roads, then came superhighways. Long Island started out with dirt roads, like Montauk Highway, then more modern paved roads, like the Vanderbilt Motor Parkway,a nd lastly, the LIE.
In otherwords, the LIE was just an evolvement of the road transportation on Long Island, which was inevitibly goign to happen.
" "the average trip length on the LIE is about 4 or 5 exits. A lot of it local traffic, that wouldn't be able to use rail anyway. "
How so? "
I'm a roadgeek too...its a traffic thing, and I believe it is backed up by NYSDOT studies on origins and destinations. The average trip length might be different for cars and trucks, in fact in all liklihood it is. Most trucks, I imagine, drive from Queens out to a certain point on the island and then back. Most cars though, are more local in nature....and therefore, wouldn't as easily be served by rail transit.
"You and I both know, Long Island is not a rural place. And we used to have an intra-island rail network in the most rural of areas, but the highways ended that quickly. This is why I keep saying we need a system of ferries, buses, and trains. It covers almost all bases."
Yes, I do know Long Island isn't rural, but it isn't built up enough to support mass transit for movement of people or goods completely without the help of decent roads.
(response)
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(my comments)
I believe in balanced transportation systems, meaning roads, transit, rail, water, and even air transportation, with as many intermodal connectors as needed (such as airports with train stations and road access, intermodal freight yards, etc). I do not believe in stifling one mode to support another in MOST circumstances.....which would mean I would not support not having the LIE just to support rail transportation of freight and people on Long Island. However in certain special cases, liek midtown manhattan, it becomes a HUGE quality of life issue if we don't do whatever we can to force people onto subways and out of private autos (during the day....in the middle of the night, i see nothing wrong with driving into Manhattan).
That being said, I think Long Island has a transportation deficit. and I think adding rail freight options to the transportation network (improving LIRR, rail tunnel to NJ, intermodal yards) is probably a good idea as the roads are in abundance, and the rails are lacking. But there will always be a use for roads, for local trips. Short trips (~ 5 miles or so) can be made on local roads. Long trips (off of Long Island) can probably be done on rail. But the intermediate legnth trips that are too short for rail, too long for local roads would be next to impossible with the LIE. Try driving 25A from Great Neck out to Smithtown sometime and you'll see what I mean...no matter how congested the LIE is, its still going to be faster then on 25A!
However, just want you to know. Had the Flushing and North Shore gone for their original option, the fastest route would probably be by rail. The plan was to go from Great Neck along what is now 25A to Syosset to meet with what is now(was it then too?) the Port Jefferson branch.
Before I even knew this, I drew up a plan for this exact same thing. It would be difficult, but it could definately be done, especially with the 25A Roslyn Viaduct reconstruction comming up.
That's upside-down reasoning. Nobody's forced onto subways in Manhattan -- Manhattan simply was never endowed with ample road or parking capacity for more than a small fraction of the number of people who have reason to enter the borough.
No . . . only thirteen former British colonies became states in that year. That did not expand to 48 states within hours of Georgius Rex capitulating, you know.
And powered rail transportation went hand-in-hand with greatly expanding the Industrial Revolution all over the country, not to mention the globe.
today's "just in time" delivery economy
Have you noted that this is one of the personifications of the so-called "false economy"?
True, there are side effects of personal transportation in vehicles, but i'd rather deal with the traffic jams on Long Island then be forced to live in Brooklyn or Manhattan
That makes no sense at all, especially when the LIRR serves a huge chunk of the island.
Great, except it doesn't go to where I want to go most of the time.
I have an LIRR station two blocks from my house, which is much much more then most Long Islanders can say. But if I want to go grocery shopping (the store I shop at is across the LIRR/Sunrise from Sunrise Mall), the train won't take me there. If I want to go visit friends in other parts of Massapequa, the train won't take me there....unless they just so happen to live within a quarter mile of the other station in Massapequa. But none of them do. If I want to go shopping at Roosevelt field, I'd have to take the train all the way into Jamaica and back out onto the island via bus to get there without my car. It takes too long. If I want to go to the Hamptons...the train will get me there, but once I'm in the Hamptons, my travels are restricted to the hamlets and the local bus routes....theres an awful lotta places I can't get to without having to rent a car once I get there. So its easier just to bring my own car, as opposed to letting it sit in in my driveway or in a parking lot while I pay to drive someone else's car.
If I want to go to NYC....well, OK, great, thats one place the LIRR will get me to reliably. But when I go into the city (evening, come home at 2 or 3 AM), the service isn't as frequent. Parking is abundant in midtown after 7PM, so I just drive. Because when i'm done i don't have to schlep all the way to Penn Station, wait an hour for a train, ride the train for an hour, and then walk home from the station at 4AM....instead, I just drive from near my friend's apartment to my own driveway in 45 minutes.
Occasionally I go to the city during the day. Then i'll use the train. My dad commutes on the LIRR to Wall Street. Its the best way for him to get to lower Manhattan from our house. But the only other time he's ever used the LIRR for inter-island travel was when he was in college at Stony Brook...and even then, his father had to drive him to Hicksville from Massapequa, using an automobile and roads.
So there, the LIRR is great if I happen to be going to the city during the day. But for most travel within Long Island, the LIRR doesn't go to where the people want to go.
Then how come the LIRR is so busy and runs 12-car EMU trains?
Are you asking the LIRR to substitute for your automobile for local travel on LI? And do you believe that "most people" are making such journeys? Then get yourself and "most people" to write the LIRR; they may just build a number of cross-island lines if the demand is high enough. But the MTA will do nothing if nobody says anything.
Parking is abundant in midtown after 7PM
Street parking?
Because most of those people aren't traveling within Long Island...they are going to Manhattan, Queens, or Brooklyn, where they can get to their final destination via subway or bus easily.
Are you asking the LIRR to substitute for your automobile for local travel on LI?
I'm not, but others seem to be when they say Long Island would have been just fine without the LIE. The LIE and other roads serve a significant portion of local traffic. Try driving from, say, Smithtown to Massapequa on local roads...it takes forever compared to the LIE, Southern State, or other big roads.
And do you believe that "most people" are making such journeys
Local journeys within Long Island? I sure do....
Then get yourself and "most people" to write the LIRR; they may just build a number of cross-island lines if the demand is high enough. But the MTA will do nothing if nobody says anything.
I have advocated for more mass transit within Long Island, to make the LIRR more useful to Long Islanders working on Long Island. I've written letters to govt. officials actually. But a lot needs to be done and I don't see much action being taken. As I see it, you'd need: 1) more "reverse commute" services, especially on lines like Ronkonkoma with limited reverse commute service. Obviously for Ronkonkoma, that means a second track.... 2) more feeder services to office parks from stations. Example, 110 corridor, with a new station at 110. Or Syossett/Woodbury from Syosett station. or Great Neck area from Great Neck Station. 3) something to connect the middle of the island to the south shore, somewhere (and the Central branch could be that connection, if it had more service, but i'd prefer something that ran through Mineola, Garden City, Hempstead). Living in Massapequa means its tough to commute by train to jobs anywhere other then the south shore by LIRR. If I lived two blocks from Farmingdale station instead of M.P., I could commute to a job in Mineola by train much easier then I can now.
But here's the problem: transportation planning these days is done too late. We only provide bus service if there is a demand for it. Little demand, little service. But maybe if they put in a lot of service where there was little demand, then sure, it would be a waste of money at first, but soon enough, if people catch on that they can catch the bus every 10 minutes, then more people will begin using it. Crappy service = no demand = no justification to improve crappy service = even crappier service.
That's true, only partially though. On the LIRR, yes, most are going to Manhattan. However, on the roadways, only about 250,000 out of 1 million are going to NYC(meaning all 5 boroughs, which means even less going to Manhattan).
"or Great Neck area from Great Neck Station. "
Great Neck station already has I think 5 or 6 bus lines feeding into it, what more is needed?
That's true, only partially though. On the LIRR, yes, most are going to Manhattan. However, on the roadways, only about 250,000 out of 1 million are going to NYC(meaning all 5 boroughs, which means even less going to Manhattan).
Ah, sorry, I was only referring to LIRR pax when I said most of them were going to the city. Most road users are staying on Long Island.
Well, they could increase the number of Montauk trains that stop at Mineola and Hicksville, that'd work wonders for sure. However, for exactly what you stated, there is one perfect thing. The Central Railroad of Long Island. Only 2 miles south of Mineola(some trains could be routed via Mineola as well by using the former ROW between Mineola and CLP that is still clear), goes right through Garden City, and just north of Hempstead. Also, it'd provide a new service area, levittown and East Meadow. Do what was done in the past, they run down the central to Babylon, then the Montauk out to the end.
As for you working in Mineola, you're commute is VERY easy. Adirondack Trailways. Take it from Massapequa to Mineola, only other stops are Freeport and Hempstead.
"But here's the problem: transportation planning these days is done too late. We only provide bus service if there is a demand for it. Little demand, little service. But maybe if they put in a lot of service where there was little demand, then sure, it would be a waste of money at first, but soon enough, if people catch on that they can catch the bus every 10 minutes, then more people will begin using it. Crappy service = no demand = no justification to improve crappy service = even crappier service."
Exactly why I am opening my own transit agency here on LI in the future. www.freewebs.com/islandtransitLI
The only portion that will take quite some time to get running are certain spots of the intra-island rail services.
The system I've created is
1. fast-more of a local coach bus service. Instead of stopping every few blocks, the buses will stop at more central locations in each town(and a few more stops which vary for each area)
2. comfortable-well.....you can be the judge of that yourself. In general, a coach bus is more comfortable though.
3. more direct-the routing of the express bus system(I've also got plans for a LIB-type system) does not go off into loops through neighborhoods and what not. Only a few routes have these areas that go off on tangents, and those routes have both local and express service, with only the locals serving these tangents.
4. more extensive-routes travel long distances, decreasing the amount of transfers that may be needed to reach ones destination. Routes such as Huntington to JFK Airport, and Montauk to Glen Cove.
Hopefully, 5 and 6 will be cheap and frequent, but obviously, we must go with is economical.
I hate how all my classmates say, oh, I can't go to the mall cuz my mom can't drive me, or, oh, I'd love to come visit you, but my mom can't drive me. BY A F'IN METROCARD!
As for street parking after 7PM in Manhattan? Yes, parking is abundant right around that time. I even take advantage of that when I go to Yankee games. You arrive in Manhattan around 6 something, drop a quarter in a meter (restriction runs out at 7, and when the meter expires you are in a legal parking spot while sitting at Yankee stadium, or wherever you are going.
On my LIRR line, I couldn't even stay in the city after 12:30 if I was relying on the LIRR, the last train leaves Penn at around 12:30, and there is no other train until 4:30. With a car I can leave Manhattan at my choosing, and be home within an hour. Not so with the LIRR, first I would have to revolve my schedule around the train, and many time the train is non-existent.
AT hours when Manhattan is harder to park in, I many times drive to Brooklyn, park, and then take a short subway ride into Manhattan.
Ha! So not true. Just take a look at my website, compare the routings to maps and what not, and see just how many homes would be lost. Hardly any. www.freewebs.com/islandtransitli . I've spent years studying possible routings to minimize the impact on people. I think I've finally done it. The 2 lines that still seem to escape me are from Oyster Bay to Syosset, and Great Neck to Syosset(like the Flushing and North Shore RR was to do).
I hope you know that the state still owns the land for an extension of the SOB to Route 25A. That might help.
Back to my original plan though, the line from OB to east of Syosset would be part of the line to Mac Arthur Airport(via a second new ROW, which I don't think has any effect on existing developments), meaning trains would run Oyster Bay(well, I plan to start the line in Glen Cove), Huntington, Kings Park, new stop Hauppague, new stop Islandia, Ronkonkoma, new stop at Mac Arthur Airport terminal.
Thanks for that lil bit of info!
I often drive to Jamaica Estates from Masspequa and take the F train in from 179th...works any day except mon/tues when alternate side is in effect there. My logic is simple....if i'm going to take the LIRR in and then buy a fun-pass when I get to Penn, why shouldn't I just use the fun pass to get to Manhattan in the first place and save some bucks? Gas to Jamaica from Massapequa is less then the LIRR fare, and especially less if I have someone with me. Time-wise, its more, but being a student short on $$$, its a nice cash saver. Plus I like the subway better then the LIRR, its more interesting. I have actually been able to drive home from Jamaica in 45 minutes during rush hour (pays to be a roadgeek too sometimes!).
Aren't you in Bellport? Getting there from Manhattan in an hour is really pushing it, even during the middle of the night.
I doubt it. There are north/south arteries with enough space to build rail lines on in Nassau and Suffolk. Newbidge Road, Hicksille Road, Rt. 110, Deer Park Avenue, Sagitos Parkway, Lakeland Avenue, Nicolls Road, Yaphank Avenue. To name a few.
If such a momentous project as building new rail lines were started they would most probably be lrt routes. Which can be run along arterial streets. To me, the best place on all of Long Island to build a line like that is Rt. 110. It would be a perfect test for the condcept, over say ten years time. There is room for development all along the route. And it already has numerous employment centers on every section.
One other stop to consider is re-opening the South Farmingdale stop and relocating it to where 110 crosses the central.
And either way, I still think they should run trains from Patchogue via the central and main with stops on the central and at Hicksville and Mineola. Finally be some sorta intra-island service.
And either way, I still think they should run trains from Patchogue via the central and main with stops on the central and at Hicksville and Mineola. Finally be some sorta intra-island service.
If that happened, I would probably take my car more often. Currently, the majority of the Patchogue trains make all stops to Babylon, and then run express on the Babylon Branch. If I had to be stuck on a train from Patchogue that made every stop on the mainline, I'd probably hang myself. It's bad enough when the connection on the Babylon Branch goes local instead of express between Babylon and Jamaica, and at least that on that line the stations are closely spaced so it's over quicker.
The Babylon Branch is the premiere LIRR line.
And as for the Patchogue local, I'm sayin they should make SOME of the mainline stops, not all. Here:
Patchogue-all stops to Babylon-Breslau-South Farmingdale-Hicksville-Mineola-Jamaica-Sunnyside(when it opens)-NYP. Maybe have some expresses that run:
Patchogue-Sayville-Bay Shore-Babylon-Hicksville-Mineola-Jamaica-Sunnyside-NYP. That's only 9 stops.
No.
-Train 2702 Penn to Montauk (transfer at Jamaica) stop Hicksville 1:25AM
-Train 2774 Penn to Patchogue (transfer jamaica) stop Mineola 4:23PM
-Train 2778 Penn to Patchogue (transfer jamaica) stop Mineola and Hicksville 5:18PM and 5:27PM respectively.
-Train 2703 Montauk to Penn (transfer Jamaica - express Patchogue to Babylon stop Hicksville and Mineola 7:57AM and 8:04AM respectively.
Then there are a random diesels that do run down the mainline from Babylon (although most run the babylon Branch) that do not stop at Hicksville or Mineola.
Adam
Ok, but those first two don't do any good cuz it's the dead of the night.
Just before rush hour and dinner time is the dead of night?
But still, there is only one train westbound that is usefull for commuters, and 2 eastbound that are usefull. They really should increase the service.
Weekdays westbound:
Montauk to Hunterspoint Av, stops Hicksville 7:55AM, stops Mineola 8:02AM(only train)
Weekdays eastbound:
Jamaica to Montauk, stops Hicksville 1:31AM(dead of night)
Jamaica to Patchogue, stops Mineola 3:15PM(too early for most commuters)
Hunterspoint Av to Patchogue, stops Mineola 5:20PM, stops Hicksville 5:29PM(only train usefull for commtuers)
Ok, so now there is only one usefull westbound, and only one usefull eastbound. Nothing on the weekends either, which is a pain in the ass. They couldn't atleast run a damn shuttle between Hicksville or even Bethpage and Babylon!?
Don't buy the rope just yet. Central Branch trains generally stop only at Hicksville and Mineola ince they reach the main line. I don't see why that would change if more Montauk trains used the Central Branch.
This is a very good thing. Forget about w/e they're being used for now. It gives Long Island some needed "breathing room" regards to transportation. At some point in the future that Central Branch (the extant section) will be put to use. The connectivity options will be exercised.
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=746079
Patchogue-Sayville-Bay Shore-Babylon-Hicksville-Mineola-Jamaica-NYP
I'll agree with the Sag and Nichols.
I am not familiar enough with Newbridge road to comment, but thought I remember that being quite tight too.
I don't think that's a good pattern to follow with a rail line. A nice long tangent is more fitting. With a variety of close by residential, industrial and office clusters all along the route. In other words, I'm talking about taking a pre-existing corridor and densifying it. For Long Island this is radical indeed. But the target routes are already dealing with plainly urban levels of traffic flow. Even with the lower adjacent developmental densities. So those who would claim it'd make it "city-like" are only fooling themselves. It's city-like now...so we should build on that.
OW! No way man. Seriously, that's what kills public transportation. Those loops add way too much time to the trip.
"In other words, I'm talking about taking a pre-existing corridor and densifying it. "
How about building a heavy rail(LIRR type) on a pre-existing corridor in which the area around has already densifyed to the point where the only other direction is up?
" So those who would claim it'd make it "city-like" are only fooling themselves. It's city-like now...so we should build on that."
BINGO. That's exactly the point. How's rail(which means more access) going to bring in more "city-like" aspects to an area that is already as "city-like" as it can get?
We're gonna have to bite the bullet and start some serious thinking on zoning laws. Those roads we've been discussing are going to have to see some type of higher density housing being considered. There's no other way to proceed unless we want to see the unplanned mess of a situation (as it is now) be continued, with the resultant lowering of the quality of life.
You know, I'm fifty years old. But I still think "Dang these old fogies" when people object to doing stuff like this. What the forking hell do these knuckleheads expect the young folks to do when they start to enter into the mainstream of life? How many 20 year olds can hope to afford a house on Long Island? (Shoot. How many 40 year olds can??) Us old bastards are eating the seed corn. And we're gonna be regretting that immensely, if nothing changes.
Not quite so. 2 buses. Actually, I think your bus may go to RFM...but I'm not sure. And if you want a quick ride, Adirondack Trailways to HTC, and LIB to RFM.
But driving, I can be there in 20 mins...even when SOuthern State is jammed (hint: Bellmore Ave is a godsend, and, like most Nassau County maintained roadways, has great signal timing/coordination, almost as good as NYC's, unlike NYSDOT maintained roads).
I think part of the problem is that people are reluctant to ride busses because they don't know where they go, and a little bus stop sign doesn't attract nearly as much attention as a rail line. There's some stigma with busses thats just tough to overcome....
Sadly, it is true. Most adults though applude me for the fact that I am so independant and am able to take the bus, so with them, it may be a turn for the better. Actually, I know one mother who lives in ROSLYN, one of the richest towns in Nassau County(and yes, they're rich), and she takes the bus every now and then to the mall and what not.
As for your trip....I'm still trying to remember if my system would cover you. I know I'm planning to increase service with my buses on the Adirondack Trailways route, so that may work. According to Greyhound, the trip takes 25-35 minutes(extra 10 cuz rush hour traffic probably, as the bus is in rush hour), then add say....10 min for the bus to RFM, and there you go. I understand it's a bit longer, but unless we reach NYC gridlock(which we occasionally do), public transit will always be a bit slower than driving. Hopefully, my more direct routing will speed things up.
You make such a big deal about that.....but you know, I would too...it is a big deal when the rich folk on LI take a bus on a regular basis. This definitely highlights the problem. I'd think that feeder busses into the LIRR stations would be HUGE, given the lack of parking at stations, but even that doesn't seem to happen much.
If you get stuck in traffic while driving, riding the bus isn't going to help, since you're just going to get stuck in that same traffic (except that the bus probably can't divert to a parallel road with less congestion). A train can bypass it all.
This is one reason I think that many of NYC's bus lanes should be beefed up and enforced.
A vigorously enforced and well-publicized towing campaign might help.
People DO NOT have the right to live wherever they want to live. If that were the case, then everyone who wanted to would be able to live on Park Avenue (and I don't mean above 96th Street). Instead, only people who can afford it live there.
Living in spread-out fashion is an environmental nightmare and isn't cost-effective. People should be forced to pay for the costs of the lifestyle they choose to lead.
That's fine...except that you are being subsidized by everyone else. If you had to pay the same proportion of cost of your use of land and resources as the city dwellers do, then I have no problem with that. But you don't.
I see, so you're saying that an acre of farmland in North Dakota should cost the same as an acre in Times Square?
The unfairness in paying for the infrastructure can easily be addressed with something called impact fees that developers have to pay. THey have them in North Carolina, I know that much, I don't know about New York. But basically its based on things like how much water, how much sewer, how many vehicle trips are generated, etc.
I'll just say two things:
1) population keeps increasing. THe people need to live somewhere.
2) the flip-side to suburban sprawl, where people obviously seem to be able to afford to build huge luxury houses, is gentrification of inner city neighborhoods. Last I checked, the environmentalists loved it, but the less-well-off people pushed out of their neighborhood by higher rends didn't. Looks like the special interests are competing.....
In the 20's and 30's he completely revamped the civil service laws to elliminate patronage.
Getting rid of the last vestiges of Boss Tweed was a good thing, and it happened before Moses was consumed with power.
I don't think anyone could argue that Riverside Park or Jones Beach are bad things either -but that leaves a lot. His involvement in the NYC housing authority was unpardonable.
He wrote the laws that made state authorites into giant government/corperate entities with no accountability, and that adversely affects us to this day.
Why am I not surprised? The problem with "King Moses" is that his short-sighted, bigoted, decisions have had long term consequences on everybody who lives in New York, and its suburbs.
Thank goodness the Lower Manhattan Expressway was never built.
Where would they have built this from? Maybe that old spur to, what is it, Point Lookout I think, from Long Beach? That would've been the greatest train ride ever. That bastard.
So you'd rather that Jones Beach not have been developed at all?
And Robert From Queens said that the spur was supposed to be part of Jones Beach, as in to provide rail service to beach goers, which you know would've been used today.
Did Moses really think he could keep out poor people from living in Staten Island.
Another bridge he constructed is also without a bicycle path.
If they could make it go faster, it would be great, but the EIS process does serve a useful purpose of making sure alternatives are studied and you get the best bang for the buck before the project is built. A lot of projects have mitigation measures to pacify NIMBY's as a result of the EIS process.
For the Cross Bronx project....he could of lower to roadway to the point where it was more of a tunnel and have no direct affect on the community, but he didnt.
In fact, he even tried to build the Northern State Pkwy right into the heart of Old Westbury, but because of social and political might, he was forced to detour the project around the area. If the immigrant areas of the Bronx had the political pull, he would have been forced as well to scale down the project in one way or another.
In the end. he was an over aggressive project maker that really should have sought out community involvement instead of acting more like a "dictator".
Except that many of his roads were designed for leisure, not commerce.
For the Cross Bronx project....he could of lower to roadway to the point where it was more of a tunnel and have no direct affect on the community, but he didnt.
The Cross Bronx Expressway is already in a cut, what more do you want? The roadway was difficult to build because it had to be cut through solid rock. A deeper highway would be much more expensive, and would not have saved any property, so what good would that have been to the community?
In fact, he even tried to build the Northern State Pkwy right into the heart of Old Westbury, but because of social and political might, he was forced to detour the project around the area.
And drivers now have to deal with two dangerous, sharp curves because of that. When the LIE was built, it cut through Old Westbury. Robert Moses got his revenge for that.
In the end. he was an over aggressive project maker that really should have sought out community involvement instead of acting more like a "dictator".
Community involvement is why nothing gets done anymore. The people living near proposed projects should just be paid money to shut up. That would be fair and efficient.
Why couldn't they be more tougher on the NIMBYs?
Why should people be forced to put up with projects that are only to their own detriment without just compensation? Would you want a sewage treatment plant built next to your house? Everyone would benefit from such a facility but only its neighbors get the shaft. That's not fair, especially for people who have saved up and sacrificed so they could afford a nice house apartment in a nice place and then have the rug pulled out from under them.
A lot of people on this like to think about public works projects without thinking about the public.
Yes, even the dead couldn't rest peacfully, even they were forced to "move"(In Cypress Hills cemetery and surounding cemeteries people were dug up for the Interboro-JR Parkway).
Only the residents of Old Westbury were able to keep Robert Moses from his appointed rounds, and to this day the Northern State is even more curved, and goes a few miles out of the way in order to avoid Old Westbury.
Moses got his time when the LIE cut right through there.
As an interesting sidenote, the people of OLD Westbury didn't change too much in the decades following. In the early 80's when lamp posts were installed all the way to Patchogue Holbrook Rd on the LIE, Old Westbury managed to keep their few mile stretch dark.
They must be loosing some of their clout though - not only did the DOT get the HOV lane through Old Westbury, they also have completed the missing link of darkness.
The results of this arrogance are obvious.
but he did get things done....the way he went about it was questionable.. but he did get the job done...
Has the City done any better since the man passed away?
I think not...
Has the MTA done any better? that remains to be seen,if you let the track record speak for itself.
Wasn't like there was no commerce before the CBE. And there's commerce without the Lower Manhattan Expressway too. (There's even commerce without the Miller Elevated Highway too.)
Amazing the man who never drove forced so many others to.
Since it's attributed to a real woman who was in real politics and really got her head chopped off (one Marie Antoinette), I thought it was appropriate . . .
It's actually not very much on-topic, because very little rail was discussed and high praise for the interstates were extolled. Now we know who are the real fans of rail, consequently.
I consider myself a fan of rail, but not a fan of rail uber alles. A balanced transportation mix must exist.
The front page of Subtalk says: "Welcome to the SubTalk bulletin board at www.nycsubway.org. This board can be used for discussions of rail transit systems worldwide. It is not limited solely to New York City topics, but please stick to rapid/rail transit issues only." I didn't write that, TYVM. ;->
Besides, I was speaking of the posters that diverged from discussing the policy proper and instead went into full-blown extollations of the virtues of rail's subsidized competition.
ANd that is VERY rail and transit oriented if I do say so.
This is just the type of thing I would be worried would be killed because a "moderator" would feel this is off-topic.
How is discussing the interstates and road poicies of the past affecting the railroads and public rail transportation off topic?
You're not getting it . . . this thread is in praise of a man who believed that the world could begin and end without railroad tracks. We are very lucky that the rails persisted in spite of that belief.
Moses is getting battered in this thread because he stepped on toes but that was a necessary evil. We have learned (I hope) from some of his mistakes. The biggest lesson being that a fully balanced and developed transit infrastructure is required in an expanded and ever growing metropolis to maintain efficient traffic flow and movement of it's denizens to their destinations. That way everyone is happy.
Compared to his successors, he got nothing done when it came to rail, so it can be argued that he was just like them at least in that respect.
Those are my thoughts exactly. Well, maybe not the part about loving the LIRR.
The board already was self-moderated. Because there was nobody to rein in problem posters, the only choice was to take matters into one's own hands.
Very on topic for transit/rail issues .
Especially when they go into the virtues of non-rail transport at the expense of rail's virtues? Uh-huh.
Keep telling yourself that. The government gets a different message from that attitude, to wit that the current passenger rail setup is adequate or perhaps too large, no improvements are necessary, and people prefer driving to riding the train—anywhere.
Talking about the interstates and roads and the effect they had on the rail system and transit system is very on topic
But you're leaving that to me instead of helping my arguments.
Regards,
Jimmy
Yes, the Sheridan goes NO WHERE...
Hahahaha! On that I am now leaving before I get blocked out agin because I went over my 30 posts because of this thread yesterday. In all my years on SubTalk, it's the FIRST time I hit the post quota limit and got blocked out....and it was all "on topic".
-James
-James
Sure it would have been nice if the subway was more developed, but with more stations, tracks , tunnels, elevated structures and cars to deal with the MTA would definally be clammoring for more money.
Yup, lung cancer's a huge benefit.
We're back onto the projects again?? Don't speak of them unless you were the inhabitant of one.
Robert Moses,He was one of those people who have a vision and act on it
You mean like the visionaries in Europe building those HSR networks?
The only "vision" promulgated by Moses is that one that Eisenhower ripped off of the defeated Third Reich. Lest we forget, that "vision" helped the Allied forces penetrate Berlin faster—and if we get invaded, we're just as vulnerable.
W Bwy
Really? If, instead of running through a densely populated section of the Bronx, the same highway had been placed a few miles north in a less densely populated section of Yonkers, commerce in the northeast wouldn't function?
There wasn't much demand for east-west travel across the Bronx until Moses built a bridge to Queens across the Bronx from the existing George Washington Bridge. Until then, the major travel corridors were north-south and northeast-southwest.
Not withstanding the unrealized 125th elevated Roadway that would have flowed from it, his crown acheivement was the Triboro. He also did good on Long Island with the beaches... And, if I am not mistaken, the Bronx River Parkway is nice to, albeit, obselete. And maybe one could say the Henry Hudson in Riverside Park has some merit, though, that arguement might be hard to make by today's standards.
Moses was a character: he was a visionary of the city; but one who refused to live in the city and for that many argue he actually hated the City he actually plied.
Commerce would have functioned, but Moses wouldn't have achieved his true goal of maximizing tenant displacement - which in turn maximized the relocation funds, which somehow were never distributed to the tenants in question....
Keep in mind that, on the whole, Moses hated cities and their occupants (especially NYC). He once stated on the record that cities are not entitled to their own viability, but exist solely as conduits for suburban traffic.
it seems the park is nothing more than a gigantic asphalt flattop.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
James
Robert Moses created Jones Beach state park, Orchard Beach(I believe) and many parks in the city. Before Robert Moses, middle class peope in New York City didn't have access to parkland. There we're few parks in the city, and if they wanted to go to the country, they would often drive out to Long Island, and have a picnic on the edge of some land barrons farm/estate(before being chased off) as there we're no public parks.
I would encourage you to read "Power Broker" which is a book on Robert Moses. He was a very interesting man, as he alternately conducted projects which we're very beneficial to New York, as well as ones which we're very harmful.
Moses did a lot of good and bad things. To classify him as a diety or a demon is to not properly understand what he was.
Moses wasn't evil, per se, nor was he a God. He was just doing what he thought (in all respects to circumstances) what would supposedly benefit New York at that time. Yes, some of his highway projects did help ruin communities, but they were degrading long before Moses was even there. To add even more, the people who were 'evicted' got paid plenty for compensation so the tears were almost immediately dried.
Also keep in mind that he erected much parkland in the City with some notable projects including Orchard Beach and Flushing-Meadows Corona Park.
How Many Forum Members Does It Take To Change A Light Bulb?
1 to change the light bulb and to post that the light bulb has been changed.
14 to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and how the light bulb could have been changed differently.
7 to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs.
1 to move it to the Lighting section.
2 to argue then move it to the Electricals section.
7 to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about changing light bulbs.
5 to flame the spell checkers.
3 to correct spelling/grammar flames.
6 to argue over whether it's "lightbulb" or "light bulb" ... another 6 to condemn those 6 as stupid.
2 industry professionals to inform the group that the proper term is "lamp".
15 know-it-alls who claim they were in the industry, and that "light bulb" is perfectly correct.
19 to post that this forum is not about light bulbs and to please take this discussion to a lightbulb forum.
11 to defend the posting to this forum saying that we all use light bulbs and therefore the posts are relevant to this forum.
36 to debate which method of changing light bulbs is superior, where to buy the best light bulbs, what brand of light bulbs work best for this technique and what brands are faulty.
7 to post URL's where one can see examples of different light bulbs.
4 to post that the URL's were posted incorrectly and then post the corrected URL's.
3 to post about links they found from the URL's that are relevant to this group which makes light bulbs relevant to this group.
13 to link all posts to date, quote them in their entirety including all headers and signatures, and add "Me too".
5 to post to the group that they will no longer post because they cannot handle the light bulb controversy.
4 to say "didn't we go through this already a short time ago?"
13 to say "do a Google search on light bulbs before posting questions about light bulbs".
1 forum lurker to respond to the original post 6 months from now and start it all over again.
You know, diidn't we go over this a short time ago? However this time something seems to be missing. Something involving children perhaps?
Yes, you were smack in the middle of it, although I thought your remark that caused the furor was made in ignorant innocence.
This is a riot and classy too.
This is a riot and classy too.
One to complain that those want to change a light bulb are a bunch of paranoid bedwetting cowards afraid to plunk their suit-covered anuses down in a dark room.
-M van N
Finally we might have the connection between Saddam and bin Laden!
I'm curious as to what the rebuild looks like as well. And if you really "hated America" you'd be asking for pictures of Con Head's secret power control center on 7x Street. Heh. Buy yez a ham sammich. (grin)
You mean the one at an undisclosed location near South Street Seaport, undisclosed that is except for the minor fact that the Hagstrom's Map of Lower Manhattan shows a parcel of land in just the right location labeled "Con Edison"?
Da Hui
Vote Kerry 2004!
My "Vote Kerry" was for humourous purposes only.
"My fellow Americans. As a young boy, I dreamed of being a baseball, but tonight I say, we must move forward, not backward, upward not forward, and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom."
How could you not?
DEFEAT BUSH
Fahrenheit 9/11
Enough Said
On the other hand, I voted for Ralph Nader in 2000 for pres. :)
Bush should go back to Texas and do what he is best at doing. The current govenor Rick Perry sucks....he closed down two indian casinos by near force. :(
Ask and ye shall receive :)
I made a special trip up to 191 St this evening to take a boat load of pics of the rehabbed station. I had been wanting to do this for a while and you gave me a good reason to finally go. Click the thumbnail below to view the album of photos from today. Also click here to see some pretty lousy photos of the station, pre-renovation, that I took in 2002.
So a little about my experience up there. Thankfully I ran into no organized resistance. As soon as I got off the northbound (9) I saw a cop coming towards me. I pulled a "Jersey Mike" and just moved on over to a different part of the station. I mean I didn't come all the way to Washington Heights to potentially get yelled at by a cop! Luckily the cop boarded the next northbound train, AFAIK. Then the S/A in the booth told me I couldn't take photos of the booth. That's a new one... Anyhow, enjoy the photos!
After I add captions, I will tell David Pirmann that he may add the photos to this site if he wishes.
This might answer your question.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
"Cmon, the MTA is a state agency, who is going to challenge them?"
I am. And a swarm of other people will. This problem won't go away until the MTA backs down. Period. I've said it before and I'll say it again - the only way they'll ever get my camera is from my cold dead hands'. This is a war, and it's going to at times be ugly.
"The rules set forth in this rule book that prescribe employee conduct rlating to the safe operation of trains and buses are intended to place a higher standard of care on employees than is required by law". In other words they don't challenge existing laws, they are paid to follow these guidelines, they don't answer to YOU when they violate them, they answer to Labor Relations and a loss in pay is enough incentive for them to call in photographers."
And that's why the MTA needs to be harassed right back, and employees need to be hassled right back, and, unfortunately, if any cops want to get pushy beyond just asking a few questions, complaints need to be filed on them as well. It's unfortunate that some rank and file employees of the city who want to do nothing but earn a paycheck and not want go home with a headache ARE going to end up getting this thrown right back at them, but that's their problem - not the ours.
The photographers of this country are quite frankly sick and tired of having our rights used as someone else's toilet paper. We're going to war against this, and will not rest until our god given right to photograph whatever we want is secured. If there are MTA employees that don't like that (and I know there are plenty), I can only suggest two things: a) see something - or rather someone not very out of place at all taking photos, say nothing. Save yourself a headache like that dispatcher got and look the other way - or - b) complain to your superiors about the ban causing complaints and undue problems... or c)if you see something, say nothing, and get docked pay for it, take it to the press. Stand up for yourself. Find a better paying job elsewhere...
It's unfortunate that a lot of good MTA employees, cops, etc are going to get caught in this battle unnecessarily - but that is not the photographers fault. Don't blame us, we're not the goons trying to take anyone's rights away. We didn't ask for this war, but we sure as fucking hell will win it.
Roger Touissant needs to entrench his position next time the CBA comes up for renewal. What happened to this person who was supposed to be a pain in the A*S for the MTA? (The MTA has to negotiate in good faith under the Civil Service Law.)
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
Then the NYPD can step in and investigate. Not issue tickets -- investigate. Not only does challenging photographers set yourself up for disciplinary action, it also defeats the entire purpose of investigation by a police officer.
Say you came across a bona fide terrorist engaged in terroristic activity. If you yell at him, he'll go away and come back later or move his operations elsewhere. If you don't make it obvious that he's being watched, he'll stick around until the cops arrive.
Just what is your problem with people taking photos, anyway? And even more importantly - if you hate taht people take photos of subways, why on earth are you posting on a website that probably hosts the largest collection of photos of the NYC Subway system online, for anyone to see and study, 24/7/365 ??
If photographers are bad, then I guess so is this website and every other one like it. Maybe you should go run crying to the MTA board, fatherland security, and everyone else, and see if you can get them all taken offline. Oh no wait a minute, that would result in a lot more egg on the government's face... can't have that now can we...
Where have I been? Right here. I don't ride path much, so that never affected me. I've been sicked over the years since 9/11 about our rights getting trampled, and that proposed photo ban was the last straw. Once I heard about it on the news, me and a lot of other people took action... and we're just gunna keep on doing that, putting a lot of time and effort into making this town just a little bit better of a place...
So attacking the rank-and-file achieves nothing but cause grief for people who have little choice but to do what they're told, or face the consequences. The problem is with the big guys upstairs. Being in relativelt insulated positions of power, they don't have to take the fall for their decisions - they have subordinates who do it for them.
It's always that way - soldiers fighting each other in the field for the most part, have nothing against each other personally - they're waging war for the sake of what their superiors tell them. A man with a family joins the military to feed his family, and kills another man with a family, who also joined the military to feed his family.
Then again, there are always assholes out there, and they deserve to be put on a big old rusty R44 with the fatcats and sent to Parts Unknown.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
Why does everyone insist on repeating this? I already corrected it upthread.
They were instructed to notify the authorities if they saw anything potentially suspicious (including photographers), so the authorities could investigate. They were never instructed to confront photographers themselves. Confronting photographers defeats the entire purpose.
You are incorrect. Only if the employee is enforcing an existing limitation (like the use of a tripod, or if the photograper is blocking the free movement of persons, etc) is the offender legally obligated to follow the employee's directive.
IIRC I need to look at the code.
Everybody does, including the NYPD.
If a TA worker tells me to do a somersault on the train, and I don't, I can't be fined, because my failure to do a somersault has neither violated any laws nor interfered with transit operations.
Likewise, if a TA worker tells me not to take a picture on the train (even with no flash or tripod), and I do, I can't be fined, because my photography has neither violated any laws nor interfered with transit operations.
The gentleman who refused to move off the seat was interfering with transit operations.
DEAD WRONG.
If you "yes sir" someone like this you are only encouraging them to make up "rules".
I'll give you a case in point. In June 2001 I bought a new digital cam and was shooting, among other things favorite subway stations and trains. I was going to Main St. every week or so on business and returned at night. On this occaision, I was taking shots of the station's new eastern entrance, you know, the one with the escalators that are almost allways out of service, I never use flash, it's pointless a any distance and at that hour the area is nearly deserted except for some restaurant workers going home and (sometimes) a few cops.
As I was about to take an overall shot of the escalators a voice squawked from the token booth's pa that it was "illegal to take pictures in the subway". Knowing that it not, I walked toward the booth where an older black man was on duty. As I approached he looked at me as if I were the Grim Reaper, I told him politely but firmly that there was no rule or law prohibiting photography as long as no flash or tripod was used.
His response "hey you do what you gotta do, I'am just telling you the rules" I responded "no your're making them up". I took my shot and boarded the train.
Bear in mind that this was a full two and a half months before 9-11.
There is, and will allways be this sort of person around that tries to enhance his ego by abusing his position, whether he's a cop or just a booth clerk, janitor etc.
Understand the difference between rules and LAWS, understand your rights, do NOT pick fights but do not allow people to exceed their authority.
-Lino
I'd go down to Main Street to snap some photos myself, but I'm tired of taking R-62A pics.
My approach would have been to call the employee an impostor - after all, for all I know he could be some idiot who stole an MTA uniform impersonating an MTA employee. And whatever they think the rules on photography are, surely they must know that impersonating an MTA employee is an arrestable offense. So either present some ID to me, or I'll go fetch the nice police.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
#3 West End Jeff
Good luck!
Click here to view the picture at full size
Ben F. Schumin :-)
They're both the same size!!!
they are so nice...we can use some of that sweetness here....
Don't get me wrong,I like our trains too...but WMATA CARS are sweet.
It looks like a BREDA...
God Bless our faithful Rohrs, with 28 years of yeoman service.
wayne
wayne
SAS
There is one feature of the interior shown in the photo that gives away which builder built the car. Others have mentioned this unique feature that is only found on that series. The feature was retained after the interior was rehabed.
John
John
The car on which I took the photograph was a Rohr. I figured the giveaways would be the emergency door release cover and the fact there is no place above the middle of the 3 windows to stick the Metro Safety In Numbers type ad placards and public hearing information. In any other type of WMATA car, that space would be visible, but on the Rohrs, it is located directly above the empty first seats in the photo that are directly in front of the subjects, where the interior strip map was formerly located.
Feel free to post rationale, it should be interesting. I decided to post that picture because there were no easy giveaways as far as I could tell as to the car type due to the picture being black and white and the obvious identifying pictures of the car not being visible in the photo.
Thanks to all who "played along."
The window rubber is much thinner on Rohrs. Breda window rubber is much much thicker than the one in that picture.
SAS
And SOMETHING in that pic was saying to me that the seats were orange... So I just threw the Rohr guess up.
Now mind you, after some many years, they may get worn down to shiny in places, but for now, they are brushed.
As for not doing rubber handrails on the CAFs and the rehabs, it's just as well - the Breda ones do look kinda worn out in places.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
1.) The unusually thin lining of the edge of the window is a Rohr exclusive, all other car series have thick rubber lining around the windows
2.) The ad rack fixtures have much more sharper and squared off corners while the rest of the cars have more rounded off edges
3.) The handrails of the rohrs are chrome, Bredas are rubber coated, CAFs are brushed stainless steel
4.) The seat coverings on the Rohrs are generally more shinier than the rest of the series
Had you not chosen to show just the middle section I could have been even more sure because of the extra seats on the Rohrs on the ends
John
Of course another memory is when it was night and the incandescent station lights were on. They would dim slightly and get brighter when a train on the line was taking power.
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill "Newkirk"
I recently went to New York City to see the legendary Elton John perform at Radio City Music Hall. As a railfan I obviously went down to the Big Apple by train and rode around the city in its famed subway system. It was a really long day but got to see a lot and had a great time. This report is a look at where at I went and the trains I rode.
I prepared for this trip by researching online and talking to fellow railfans for information that I might need to know. Also I got my commuter rail and subway tokens for Boston area trips in advance that way I didn’t have to worry about that at the end of the trip. Also I got my Amtrak tickets in advance and the plan was to take Amtrak #173 on 7-14 and return on 7-15 on Amtrak #66. But I thought about possibly switching to train 93 leaving Boston on 7-14 two hours earlier and would allow me to take a spin to Coney Island and back. But I would find out on Wednesday July 14th to see if I can take that train and do that side trip.
I left my house in Lynn, Massachusetts little before 7am and after breakfast with my dad, I got dropped at the commuter rail station in my city where I boarded a 744am train to Boston. It was a short 20 minute trip, but unfortunately since it was rush hour I had to stand the whole way, but least I ran into a friend on the train so it wasn’t too bad. Once I arrived in North Station (the same place that next week will be closed for the Democratic National Convention) I went over to the new superstation and boarded a green line trolley to Park Street where I made a quick transfer to the red line. I rode the red line 2 stops to South Station where I got up. Soon later I was in the concourse of the historic South Station
First thing I did once I got to South Station I went to the Amtrak ticket counter and attempted to change my ticket to train 93 and after a few minutes that mission was an success. So all I did was waited in the station and loaded up on Newspapers and got some snacks and a bottle of water. At 9am a redcap helped me get on the train earlier because he remembered me and my somewhat limited mobility to two recent surgeries. Well I found a nice seat on the westbound side.
Our train left on time, but it was slowed as it traveled along the Southwest Corridor southward possibly due to a track fire, but after Forest Hills our train started to pick up to normal speed but we were little late getting to 128 station, but wasn’t too bad. Before you knew it we were in Providence and heading towards Connecticut. A little after 12 we arrived in New Haven but we lost a few minutes due to boardings here but within 10 minutes we left. Rest of the way we made reasonable time going to New York considering the tracks we were on and were in New York Penn Station by 2pm. I detrained and this began my first ever New York experience on my own!
I got up the stairs and soon I walked over to the concourse passing the entrance to subway that I would use in a bit, because I had to make a restroom break, once that was taken care of, I backtracked down to that entrance and got a One day Unlimited use Metrocard which was a great thing to get, then I picked up two subway maps, the 100th anniversary edition, and entered the subway. I wanted to take the A-C-E line downtown but accidentally took it uptown, but I quickly realized my mistake and got of at Port Authority and switched directions and got on a downtown train and took that to West 4th Street station. There I went down two stairways and got onto the D line which would take me all the way to Coney Island. Its quite a long trip, but one cool thing is that it crosses the Manhattan Bridge so you get some cool views there. I noticed that the NYC subway to me is a lot faster and rougher than the subway we got up here in Boston. But it was cool to bypass stations like they do down there, and also I remember couple times where my train would race another train for a bit, before one of the trains stops at a station,. But by 315 I was at Coney Island. You could see all the work they have done at the station and it looks really nice but looks like also that they have more to do there.
I left the system and crossed the street and had a little snack at the original Nathan’s Famous on Surf Ave. I was in the area briefly but was cool to be at the popular seaside amusement area. After I was done with the snack I returned to the Subway station at Stilwell Ave and decided to go back to Manhattan via the Q line. It was a good decision since I gave me great views of the famous Wonder Wheel and probably the most famous coaster in the US if not the world the Cyclone, One question I noticed from the Q a track enter from the north there but we didn’t use it, is that the trackage that the N would use to get back to Coney Island when it gets extended again? Well our train traveled uptown and headed back over the Manhattan Bridge and went back underground and before I knew it we were at 42nd street/ Times Sq and that’s where I got off. I found the signs for the 42nd st and 6th Ave exit, it was clear that this wasn’t a major exit just because how small the stairwell was, but it worked out good for me it put me right across from the ESPN zone where I was eating dinner.
After dinner and making sure the thunderstorm that passed through was done I decided to walk over to 6th Ave along 42nd St where I would take either a subway or bus to get me to Radio City. I decided to take the bus that way I could see some of the sights, and it was free with my metrocard, but I noticed that the subway would have worked out just as well since there are exits very convenient to the venue. Well I made it to Radio City and went to the Elton John concert and it was a great time but you don’t need to hear about that here.
Once the show ended I walked back over to 7th Avenue and walked in the direction of Times Square, I was a little hungry so I had a little snack at TGI Friday’s, so I didn’t have to worry about finding a snack at Penn Station at 1am, (but as I found out as I got to Penn Station there is some places open in the LIRR concourse) but better to be safe than sorry. Well I decided that I wanted one more spin on the Subway and took the 1 train to South Ferry, there were people on the train when I boarded, but by the end of the line it was just me and a guy sleeping, not exactly what I wanted, so I moved up to a car with a more friendly looking person on it, and we looped around and headed back uptown.
I got off at 32nd St/Penn Station, but had one more experience trying to find the entrance back to Penn Station but couldn’t find it so I had to go upstairs and cross the street and enter Penn Station by the entrance to MSG, it wasn’t too big of a deal but wasn’t as easy as my entrance to the subway early the previous day. My train wasn’t supposed to leave until 315 so I had some time to explore the complex. I went down to the LIRR concourse and noticed that they basically have their own station, and NJT has its own area for its passengers waiting to board. Then I went over to the Amtrak section and noticed an obvious increase in Security in this area. I went into the Amtrak waiting area, and just took it easy, except for meeting up with a friend and going to get a drink, I got to board my train a bit earlier again due to the mobility, the time was 3am.
I got to my business class seat on train 66 and got to see a surprising amount of movements in the station including an obvious non revenue acela which was cool to see especially at that hour. I also saw several NJT and LIRR trains go by. Which gave me this question even though Amtrak, NJT, and LIRR have own sections do all 3 use the same general tracks or least can see their tracks from my track which was track 9? We left New York at about 330 am. It was nice to have business class here since it meant more room and it also meant free drinks. Even though I was really tired I could sleep much on the train. We got to New Haven about 5am and 715 into Providence, but we were so early into PVD that we sat there to pick up the passengers boarding here. There had to be significant amount of new boardings here since I heard there were people standing and the seat next to me became filled for the first time during the ride. One guy was moved out of the seat when he found out that he had to pay the $13 business class charge, but they had no problem finding another guy to fill the seat. Besides the sodas and water on the train the only train food I got was a Swiss Omelet Bagel Sandwich which wasn’t too bad. We arrived into South Station on time and that completed my Amtrak experience. I know I was just going to NYC but I enjoyed the rides on the system.
But my trip wasn’t completely over I still had to get to Swampscott Mass where my parents would pick me up. I thought about rushing over to catch the 830 train by getting off at Back Bay, but I was too tired to do that so I would wait for the 945 train. I used the token that I previously got and got on the Red line but got off at the next inbound stop Downtown Crossing where I took the Orange Line up one stop to State Street. Since I had a little time to spare I went to the Borders Book Store and got a cool book on Streetcar Trolleys of Boston during the 1940s. Back to the present I went back on the Orange Line and went northbound two stops and got off at North Station and made it to the station in time to make my 945 train to home! I got off at Swampscott and my father was there to take me home. I had a really long day, but it was a lot of fun and I would do this again in a heartbeat.
Jack
Jack
The CTA is considering constructing a Silver Line that would connect the Blue and Green Lines. The proposed line would run between the Ashland stop of the Green Line, and the Harrison junction, where the Forest Park and Cermak Blue Lines meet. There’s not a station there, so it sounds like they’d put one in. Other proposed Silver Line stations include a stop at Madison for the United Center (good call) and one on Van Buren.
Critics of the plan, which is still unofficial, say that the proposed line would cut already shabby service on the West Side. In 1997, the CTA started running fewer trains on the Cermak branch, and some people in Little Village, Pilsen and Lawndale are concerned that Silver Line will cut the number of Blue Line trains again. Currently, the Cermak branch has no weekend service.
In an attempt to accommodate riders’ needs, the CTA will launch a series of “community workshops.”
Starting late this month, the CTA will hold community workshops to gather information on the travel habits of residents of the West Side and the near west suburbs. People interested in participating can call 312-681-2716 to sign up, officials said.
"They are not public meetings in the traditional sense of a presentation and one question at a time from the audience," said CTA spokeswoman Noelle Gaffney. "Instead, these will be smaller, interactive workshops where participants will work on teams to develop service plans."
The Silver Line is part of the broader, more ambitious Circle Line plan that would connect all the CTA lines as well as the Metra. The CTA is planning a major redesign that includes a lot of construction.
A project the city hopes to build in several years is a transit superstation on the long-vacant Block 37 downtown. The station would be located between the Red and Blue Lines and offer rail connections to the Orange Line. Express trains to O'Hare and Midway Airports would serve the $213 million station development, bounded by State, Randolph, Dearborn and Washington Streets.
Other ideas under consideration include adding stations on the Green Line, connecting the Orange Line that serves Midway with the Brown Line serving the Kimball Avenue terminal and hooking up the Blue Line at Ashland with the Orange Line, officials said.
www.forgotten-ny.com
That said, the Silver Line may get them more trains and weekend service -- just by virtue of it being the only train connection to the United Center.
Either way, it's going to happen because it is Phase I of the Circle Line plan -- which Daley wants. The CTA wouldn't get sneaky federal funding to rehab the Paulina Connection and then not run service through there.
So clearly this is GOOD. Now the question is, how does Chicago want to utilize it? Every plan has plus and minus about it.
In a way, this shares a little with the completion of the 63rd Street line in NYC. 3 new stations (4 if you count 57th Street becoming more than just a terminal) being connected to the Queens side of the system.
The same questio arose: How do you use it best? Debating and screaming and back and forth until finally something is settled upon.
I'm sure CTA will come up with a decent plan.
It's kinda like the connection of the Q at 21st-Queensbridge. When the MTA proposed changing the F and V routing, people in Queens got worried that they would get shafted. Same thing in this case.
Like I said: It's Phase I of the Circle Line plan, so it *will* happen. What Daley wants, Daley gets (in this town).
You make talking about trains fun again...
As for ChiTown,I am happy to see them expanding their system,add some new routes here and there when ever there are funds availible...
It's nice to know traction is still being built,instead of paving over everything...
Also,did you know that the TA is STILL looking for ways to build its Queens X-town line to Forest hills?
I thought they dropped that line like a hot knife....
It can still be done. The Connector was actually a part of that whole scheme. Well, now the Connector is done and in service, so let's have the TA build the new line off the 63rd St tunnel like what should have happened in the first place.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
That should read "half a block north."
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
See: http://www.chicago-l.org/stations/marshfield.html
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
Correct url: Marshfield Jct.
-Chris
-Chris
Sorry for the mixup.
-Chris
-Chris
Not just trains built within the last 15 years.
-Chris
--ark
That express is only 3 minutes faster than the local. The C doesn't run at 3-minute headways ever. Unless there's a bad case of bunching, it's impossible to catch up to the next C by taking an express. But if the express takes more than 3 minutes to arrive, it's quite easy to fall one C behind.
This being the IND, many passengers will never realize it. Their loss.
But yes from a local stop below 174-175(it is possible to backtrack if an uptown train comes first) it would be better to stay on the local train.
That's not typical. 5 minutes is the more typical. Rarely does a D express get to 59th St before a B local when the B leaves BPB 5 minutes before the D does. Unfortunatley, that damned wait at 145th St assures that the B will take longer to get to 59th than it has to.
The B is never scheduled to hold at 145th, but the schedule grants it one more minute to get there from BPB than the D, even though they both follow the same exact route, so the B is probably held to kill that minute. I do know that, during the 7:00 hour, southbound B's often run 1-2 minutes early at 59th, where they're invariably not held -- those trains, I suppose, are released from 145th early.
The B schedule has too much padding. It's a problem in Manhattan, it's a problem at Gold Street interlocking, and it's a problem at Brighton Beach.
I've ridden the southbound B thru 145th St about 20 times since 2/24/04. All have been the same 3 scheduled trains (7:24, :34 or :44 out of BPB) and the wait I describe was exeperienced, to varying degrees, on every trip.
The 7:24 and 7:32 (not 7:34; the schedules were changed in May) have scheduled holds at 59th; perhaps the holds are being taken at 145th instead, for whatever reason. The 7:44 has no scheduled holds, but, as I said before, it is given 20 minutes to get there from BPB while the D makes it in 19, so if nothing goes wrong, the B will invariably be ahead of schedule at 145th.
What bugs me is the relative infrequency of peak direction Concourse local service. 6-7 TPH is inadequate, but won't be a factor until after the Concourse line's GO eliminating express service expires.
What about 6th Avenue riders from 163rd and 155th?
Concourse 8th Ave riders took the D to 59th for the A or C.
Those coming from local stops in the AM rush didn't.
B-to-A-to B/D at 59th was the choice of most of these riders. Smart ones remained on the train.
Those coming from local stops in the AM rush didn't
Yes, for the most part, especially in the R10 days.
The "B" would have THREE yards at its disposal if it ran to 168th St. Coney Island at one end and 174th and 207th Sts at the other end.
W Broadway Local
"The police were investigating yesterday whether the young off-duty transit officer who reported finding a burning backpack in the Times Square subway station on Monday night might have actually planted it there himself and detonated the pipe bomb inside, several police officials said. ...
The officer has not been charged with any crime, and ... they had no direct evidence tying him to the explosion. ...
The officer, Joseph Rodriguez, 27, ... had just been forced to retire on a psychological disability pension and yesterday was to have been his last day on the force, the end of a short four-year career. ...
The police began focusing on the officer soon after the blast ... their interest in the officer was provoked by ... questions that arose about his version of the events surrounding the explosion. ...
Officer Rodriguez had left the Manhattan Transit Task Force office in the Times Square station a few minutes before the end of his shift and, he later told the police, he saw a blue and black nylon backpack on fire near the stairway. ... rather than call 911, or the task force offices, or return inside, the officer called the task force looking for a friend and fellow officer, a senior official said. He wound up being transferred several times before reaching his friend and notifying him of the burning bag, the official said. ..."
It looks like one of those in street reflectors that you drive over, very intresting idea.
So T/O's out there, do you see the IJ marking better with the reflector? Do you have to have the headlights on hi-beam or not?
They still have to touch up the paint on the stop arm. Remember when they used to paint the handrail in the tunnels all the time, too.
The stations you passed under were:
-Parkchester (6)
-174 Street (2)(5)
-Mount Eden Avenue (4)
The only station I know FOR SURE that you passed underneath was the Parkchester station. You actually went underneath a large traffic circle/business district called Hugh Grant Circle -- that was that long tunnel you went through when you first saw the R-142A's of the (6). The elevated (6) line has a stop right on top of that traffic circle, and thus, right on top of the highway.
The other two stations I mentioned because they look close to Interstate 95 on the subway map. But to my knowledge, you don't actually pass directly under those stations.
The Cross-Bronx actually passes under the Concourse line.
Ohhh....is that the part where the Cross Bronx suddenly heads into a very low 'ditch' shortly before crossing under the (4) tracks? I think I remember seeing multiple bridges up above, but don't remember actually seeing a (B) or (D) train.
Peace,
ANDEE
PROFF:
--Mark
You also forgot to mention the 1/9 runs underneath Saint Nicholas Ave and the A line at Fort Washington Ave, both under the Trans-Manhattan Expressway portion of I95 before entering the George Washington Bridge.
The 6 at Pelham Bay Park sits just outside the Bruckner portion of I95 also. But you won't notice it while driving, since the expressway is open cut at that point.
Since I495 begins at Exit 17 (I278), should it make sense to adopt I478 instead?
That's not how three digit interstates work. With 3dis, they only have to connect to the two digit parent, direction doesn't matter.
The two violations in 495 is that one of its ends is not on an interstate (therefore the first digit should be odd) and it doesn't connect to I-95.
As originally planned, I-495 would have run from I-95 in New Jersey to I-78 in Queens and thus its number fit.
Since I495 begins at Exit 17 (I278), should it make sense to adopt I478 instead?
Then it would be a violation because it would have an even first digit, and I-278 itself is a bastard. If you wanted to have fully legitimate I-numbers, then I-278 should be I-495 and I-495 should be I-195. Nevertheless, nobody really cares, the numbers as they are do their job fine enough, nobody knows how the system works anyway, and clearly AASHTO doesn't care, since they allowed I-238 in California, which is a violation of every interstate numbering rule there is (there is no I-38).
Techinally I-278 should be I-295.
The Van Wyck Expressway should be I-395
The Clearview Expressway should be I-595.
Here are other possibilities:
1a)Redesignate I-278 from the Triboro Bridge to NJ as a continuation of I-87.
1b)Redesignate The Bruckner Expressway and Clearview as I-387
1c)Redesignate the LIE to I-187
1d)Redesignate the Van Wyck to I-195
2a)Redesignate The Bruckner Expwy and Van Wyck Expwy as continuation I-87
2b)Redesignate the LIE as I-187
2c)Redesignate The Clearview as I-395 or I-387
2c)Redesignate I-278(SIE & BQE) as I-195 or I-587
Since the Clearview Expressway both starts and ends on an interstate, it should be even, not odd.
1b)Redesignate The Bruckner Expressway and Clearview as I-387
See above
This is news to me! When did the Grand Central Parkway or Hillside Ave become an interstate?
1b)Redesignate The Bruckner Expressway and Clearview as I-387
See above
See Above
Its western terminus is the BQE, not the Clearview.
Glad to hear it's still posted. Every try to make a left turn there onto NY 24?
South Ferry station does not break the line of the Underpass, but I don't know if it is deeper or shallower than the Underpass.
Battery Tunnel is to the west of the 1/9.
You also crossed over the Amtrak NY-Boston section of the NEC between where you went under the 6 and the 2/5. You crossed over Metro-Nort before Jerome Av. The B/D goes under the highway at Grand Councourse.
Actually the B/D goes under the grand concourse, but the Cross Bronx tunnels under both of them! Grand Concourse is the overpass which looks like it has a lotta rock piled up on top, and then the grand concourse....but the subway is inside that rock!
And there is no <5> anymore.
The May 2004 map trades some inaccuracies (diamond A, D, 4, etc) for others (diamond 5).
Gerry
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?28676 77 78 79
I caught the new video for young singer FeFe Dobson on MTV.
She is the singer that came out with the hit song "Take Me Away".
Anyway, one of the locations of her new video is on R 11. I think that is the number for the subway train that was stainless steel and had the two round windows on each door?
The video was probably filmed in the NYC Transit Museum.
I figured I would contribute this to the board.
Finally, after about three minutes, the doors opened. I noticed that the first car of the R-46 set was outside the station, and the second car was at the 10 car sign.
Is this correct procedure? I've been on the platform, and seen the first door of the first car outside the station. When this has happened, the doors don't open at all, and the train simply leaves the station.
And with deference to YonkersMM (and to save a valuable post) I agree that posting details of "unusual events" isn't a good thing with beakies on parade, but let's also congratulate the original poster for making it sufficiently vague that fingering a crew is nearly impossible. It's not like what some OTHERS have done here ...
No time of day, to protect the guilty.
But these are modern times where society has the collective IQ of a traffic cone and have to be protected. Hell, look at the elections if you need proff. :)
Matt
Matt
All four tracks in the area of New Rochelle are out of service due to wire damage, which occurred shortly before 8:30 AM. As a result there is no service, inbound or outbound, passing through New Rochelle at this time. Emergency crews are assessing the situation. Please continue to check our website for service updates.
Peace,
ANDEE
Flexibility is a poor choice for the ruling factor in modal choice...
ALERT
New Haven Line 10:10 AM
There is limited inbound service on the New Haven Line. Customers should expect delays of 1-1/2 to 2 hours due to severe train congestion caused by the wire damage in the New Rochelle area.
After we clear the backlog, we will be operating hourly eastbound and westbound service. Trains will leave Grand Central Terminal 10 minutes after the hour. Trains departing New Haven will operate according to the timetable and make all local stops.
Please continue to check this website for service updates.
Where (how far after the split) does it change to 3rd rail?
MNRR has combined the hourly New Haven express trains and half-hourly Stamford locals into a single hourly local train. I was just on the 10:10 from GCT, which arrived Greenwich at 11:35. A normal trip would take about :55 minutes on the local, so there's about a 30 minute delay through the area once you get on a train.
CG
Meanwhile, the train eventually left at 10:30, and had a running timeof well over 3:00 (Well, it was over 3 when I got off at New. C.)
What's so off the wall about the wire work there that it seems like 9 out of 10 dewirements occurr there? Is the junction and all really that complex?
I've never heard of constant tension cat causing so many problems. BM&LP and BC Rail both have modern installations in North America and it seems they never had the problems, admittedly they don't experience the same temperature difference as the NE (somewhat ironic since one's a desert and the other in canada). Amtrak has Constant Tension cat over the southbound 'express' track north of Hamilton station, and the only difference I noted there was fewer arcs from my Arrow when I rode under it at night.
Your pal,
Tense
Your pal,
Jethro
Peace..:&:..Love
J e n
by the way i got home at 12:00 fukker.
Peace,
ANDEE
MNCR doesn't seem to have any problem maintaining the 53 mile long line from GCT to Southeast.
Is this the new catenary, the one without the triangles ?
Bill "Newkirk"
The empty train, which had come from Grand Central, was crossing over the tracks on its way to pick up passengers on the New York-bound platform in New Rochelle. Metro-North officials said the pantograph, the spring-loaded arm on top of the train, became tangled in the web of wires carrying 11,000 volts overhead. That knocked out the power along several miles of tracks and disrupted the travel schedules of an estimated 20,000 customers.
Story in times.
Now I have more pictures of swipers at 3 different locations (they are all captioned). I have already notified police whenever I saw them, so hopefulle they will be more aggressive over the next few days.
Oh! I forgot to mention, that a NYPD Sergeant told me that "you can go ahead, take as many pictures as you want. Just no tripods or flash, you know the law.". From the lips of a ranking NYPD supervisor yet. Hmmmm the MTA brass sure know how to brainwash customers, photographers, and even NYCT employees who are forced to comply with a real phony directive. I really feel for these workers, they have to keep their jobs, no matter the circumstances involved.
So next time you get stopped by an MTA employee, listen and comply. But never feel they are the enemies because they have a job to do and one of their job descriptions, is to adhere to all directived issued by 370 Jay Street, or 347 Madison Ave brass.
Burglars provide a public service by redistributing goods that people obviously don't need and supplying an impromptu street peddler who saves a hurried commuter time and money.
Murderers do a public service too. Why should one spouse have to suffer, paying for shyster lawyers and facing corrupt judges and going deep into debt while the other spouse spends freely, sleeps around and doesn't pay child support? A hit man with a silenced .22 provides an economically efficent service and competition for the courts, which otherwise are a monopoly.
The Nobel Committee hasn't picked the 2005 economics winner yet...
I have accidentally caused MVMs to malfunction at least 10 times.
The machines have ripped me off so many times that if there is a swiper there at my home station, I will use them over the MVM.
That machine has programmed my single ride tickets as bus transfers, and occasionally will give incorrect change.
The swipers provide quick, more reliable service.
The mailers are postage paid.
Peace,
ANDEE
The reason theres no swipers is because you hit a key word "manned booth's". And when I go to PA and ride septa, everybody has there money ready to hand to the clerk, unlike NY, PA actually thinks.
"I have accidentally caused MVMs to malfunction at least 10 times. "
Really? Could you describe exactly what you did to make that happen?
Are you sure you're not purposefully jamming up the machines and selling swipes yourself?
:0)
Matt
But NYCTA should being out the smartcard already, the airtrain has them ready, and so does the MVM's, the turnstyles need to be modified for the smartcards.
What I mean by having them is that there ready to be used, but the cards arent out yet.
Each has its pluses and minuses; Windows vulnerabilities are better known and publicized due to the greater market penetration, higher transaction volumes etc.
Windows NT, to be exact.
-RJM
Not many riders buy single rides. You're much better off buying enough rides to get the bonus.
CG
You also could fly from Newark (EWR) on Air France (AF), connecting in Paris (CDG) to Bamako (BKO), then Air Mali (Z8) to Timbuktu (TOM). With a one-month advance purchase, the best fare I could find for the EWR-BKO flight was $2,168; Travelocity doesn't carry BKO-TOM fares.
Mali, the country in which Timbuktu is located, is trying to attract Western tourists. It's a stable democracy with free elections and full civil liberties, a tradition of hospitality towards travelers, and many interesting cultural attractions.
D'uh. So they are quite happy to lose one out every six rides they buy! Quite apart from the inconvenience of havig to queue up to buy their ride every time. Would they really lose one out of every six MetroCards that they buy?
I sometimes think that the incidence of mental deficiency seems to be much higher in New York than in other mejor cities with subway systems...
If you think the riders are bad, you oughta see the politicians!
90% of the daily riders rode two trips per day. They bought 1 token in the morning and 1 token to go home. Since the tokens were sold for the rate of fare and no discount was given for purchases in numbers greater than a single ride, a token was bought for every ride.
When the token went away, the single ride card took it's place. The rider's habit never changed.
Baltimore virtually eliminated tokens in 1962. At that time, the cash fare was 25 cents, tokens were sold 4 for 90 cents. BTC, hard for cash, asked the Maryland PSC to allow a 27 cent cash fare and 4 tokens for $1.00. The PSC disallowed the 27 cent cash fare, but allowed the new token rate. So, the tokens basicly vansihed. Since the token rate and the cash rate were the same (25 cents a ride) nobody bought tokens except railfans, who bought a roll of tokens at the carhouses.
That would obviously involve hiring more people to maintain and fix the MVM machines. Where should this money come from, and would you support a fare increase that would, in part, pay for more MVM maintainers?
I'd assume that one could make a reasonable economic case for dumping the booth attendants and splitting those budget positions up with 80% becoming "station attendants" and 20% going towards MVM maintainers. You probably wouldn't even need that many.
CG
The swipers commit
1) Vandalism
2) Trespass
3) Illegal use of MetroCard (offering swipes)
4) Theft of service
A certain percentage also have committed other crimes such as
1) Drug dealing
2) Burglary or robbery
3) Assault
or other offenses for which there are open warrants. Whenever NYPD picks up a swiper, there is a chance an open warrant for something else will be discovered upon a computer check.
It's easy for a swiper to be generous with money that isn't his (or hers).
David
Stu
The everyone commits
1) Vandalism
2) Trespass
3) Drug dealing
4) Burglary or robbery
5) Assault
I would be interested in knowing just what percentage of swipers have outstanding warrants for serious offenses. It might well be half or more.
I see the swipers as an agent that pools together all the "single riders" and "negiotiates" with the MTA for a reduced rate. Just like the state itself does with drug makers.
Too bad there aren't any children doing swiping, Jacko would REALLY like to wrestle them :)
Except in the most extreme cases, there's no good reason why someone should be stuck in the city with just a dollar.
That is precisely the problem with you. U must obey the law, like it or not.
I know this one guy who lives in Bay Ridge who was late for a basketball game in Rockaway that was going to start in 5 mins. He went 70 mph on 4 Ave and ran every red light in order to make time. I assume you would see nothing wrong in doing that, because the law would be immaterial to you in the case of a rush. No?
I hope that the next time you try it that u will be snagged with the $25 fine for breaking the law. Maybe then u will realize that it's not such a good idea.
You are defending people who are robbing the Subway that you love. I still can't understand why some of you do that. Illegal trespassing, arguing with transit police, using the swipers, doing things against the rules of something you like so much. I just don't get it. These swipers don't like the Subway and are robbing it, don't help them.
-Broadway Buffer
that's not a good comparison.........
broadway, if the mta would show as much passion to fighting this as much as you guys, i'm all for it.....but they don't seem to care at all.........we can all sit here and argue for each side, but in the end, it comes down to whether or not the mta will do enough to change things.............
I guess the MTA has larger priorities right now, but I just hope as many people get fined for it as possibe.
-Broadway Buffer
:-) Broadway Buffer
-Broadway Buffer
Last week I posed the question of whether a passengers who pays a swiper for access is doing anything illegal. No one answered. I'll have to try to take a look at the rules myself.
Here's something I've done a number of times when hosting friends from out of town - I swipe myself in with my $40(+bonus) Metrocard, then hand my card back over for my friends to use (rather than wait on line for the MVM). Then, depending on mutual agreement, either the ride's on me, or we go Dutch treat and they owe me $2. In the former case, my friend hasn't paid a red cent to get into the system (I did) - are they stealing? In the latter case, I only effectively pay $1.80 with the discount and my friend gives me $2 - am I stealing from them?
How is this different from the activity of a swiper except that
(1) typically unlimited cards are used (I could have used an unlimited card, but then my friends would each have to wait 18 minutes)
(2) the swiper doesn't know the swipee personally
Or is the activity I described above, letting a friend use my Metrocard, illegal?
The unlimited card is intended for the use of one person only. How this is written into any particular law, I do not know.
CG
There's a way you can get screwed by the multiple transfer thing:
Suppose you and two buddies get on the subway, paying $2 each using the same card ($6 altogether). Then you go downtown. Your two friends go home, and you hop onto an express bus. You dip your card, and what happens is the step-up fare (an additional $2) is charged for all three transfers on the card (or an additional $6). I don't know if this is still a problem, but it was in the past.
FWIW, if I went and bought a $400 Pay-Per-Ride metrocard (+40 bonus), I could theoretically stand at at a turnstile adjacent to broken MVMs, charge people $2 for me to swipe them through, and I'd make $40 off each card I bought (each card at $440 total value is good for 220 swipes, and I make $2 off each, so I make $440 gross off a $400 card, for $40 net profit). So far as I can tell, this would be perfectly legal, provided that it wasn't my action that disabled the MVMs (unless a cop wanted to give me a hard time for loitering).
Did you pay the full fare to enter the system? And the money you paid to, was that directly to NYCT or to a scumbag's pocket?
And the 3rd question is, does the rules apply "with equal force" to people aiding or abetting people in violation of the rules themselves?
I will let you decide for yourself.
You might be right. But I remain skeptical; as far as I know, you as a passenger fulfill your legal obligation by entering through a turnstile following the swiping of a card through the reader. How that card was paid for is not at issue. Consider this scenario: an exceptionally generous person buys a large number of unlimited ride MC's and uses them to swipe people through for free. Would the recipients of his generosity be committing a crime?
It could be argued that people who pay swipers are involved in a conspiracy to deprive NYCT of fare revenues and can be prosecuted accordingly. That seems a real stretch, however.
What if a generous person went around feeding quarters into expired parking meters? That's a ticketable offense.
"Cannot be used again at the same subway station or the same bus route for 18 minutes. The acceptance or solicitation of compensation for use of an Unlimited Ride MetroCard by other than authorized agents of MTA New York City Transit is prohibited."
Clearly, accepting money for swiping people with your unlimited is not allowed under MTA rules and can be considered theft of service. Swiping people in for free because you're a swell guy doesn't violate that specific rule, but it is worth noting that there are specific references that the card is intended for the use of one person at a time -- someone could interpret that to mean that swiping in multiple people for free violates that rule, resulting in a fare evasion charge.
The "Conditions of Use" of a pay-per-ride MC do not make any prohibition on swiping in others for money. So if you wanted to buy a bunch of MC's and get the 20% bonus (16% discount) and then stand by the turnstile selling swipes for $2 then it would seem you are free to do so (ignoring any loitering or other regulations).
As to the question of whether the person paying the swiper is guilty of anything, I guess it could be argued that they might be in hotter water than the swiper. If the swiper is guilty of fare evasion, then they have stolen the ride. The swipee might then be considered to have "received stolen property" (is a subway ride property? -- depends on what the meaning of the word "is" is), the penalties for which presumably can run much worse than the $25 fine fare evaders get.
CG
You do the best you can to assess a fine against the parents or legal guardians.
"I don't think the city can afford a $500 fine for fare evasion."
Nonsense. If that were true then the Quality of Life campaign started by Guiliani and William Bratton would have been a miserable failure. It was the best move the city ever made.
OK. So what do you do with an 18 year old. If they can't pay the fine, they have to be sentenced to something. The only alternative is jail time. Our jails are generally at or near capacity -- I don't think NYers want to fund new ones to incarcerate subway fare evaders.
"Nonsense. If that were true then the Quality of Life campaign started by Guiliani and William Bratton would have been a miserable failure. It was the best move the city ever made."
Nonsense? Hardly. The success of the quality of life campaign was that they enforced existing regulations, made arrests and then checked for warrants. It had nothing to do with the magnitude of the punishment (other than the prior punishment being zero). The quality of life campaign works equally well with $25 fines or $500 fines for fare evasion.
The problem the TA faces is not that the fare evasion penalty is only $25. The problem is that the laws (as currently written and interpreted) don't allow for Swiping to be prosecuted as anything other than fare evasion -- so the penalty is $25 and you're back out on the street to swipe again tomorrow.
If they could find a way to raise the penalty for swiping to $1000 or 10 days in jail, the overwhelming majority of swipers would disappear tomorrow.
CG
Confiscation of the swiper's cards is probably a more effective deterrent.
Not quite. The increased pace of arrests also made for increased processing costs (housing and transport, increased demand for prosecutor time and judge) and so on. Yet the results were quite positive.
As to the fare, I refer you to the City of Los angeles, which has an honor system. There, if a sheriff's deputy catches you without a fare on board an MTA train, the fine is much stiffer than $25. The rate of fare evasion there is quite low.
Yes, we can afford stiffer fines. An 18 year old can work, and at his/her first job the city can subtract a percentage of wage until the fine is paid off. I have no problem with that.
I believe it's something like $250.
That's an interesting thought. I wonder if any swipe-acceptees ever have been charged with anything.
Yes, because that is a violation of the terms of the unlimited use card.
If on the other hand, a wealthy person bought a whole bunch of unlimited use cards and gave one each to a lucky recipient, that is perfectly legal.
RiB: "Yes, because that is a violation of the terms of the unlimited use card."
I don't think it's as clear as a simple yes/no. Clearly the swiper is violating the terms of the card. It is not clear that the swipee has violated any TA rule. Presumably (though not anywhere I could find in a quick search) there is a statement somewhere that a person may enter the system upon payment of a valid fare. Since the swiper's swipes are not valid, the swipee would then be fare evading as well.
CG
If you enter the system by paying a swiper, you commit theft of service (since the TA doesn't receive its fare from you but you still ride the train). However, your likelihood of being prosecuted is very low.
I believe you -- I just haven't seen the actual statement anywhere in print that the TA requires payment of a valid fare in order to ride. I do assume that it is somewhere.
One asterisk belongs on your statements, though. Your statements are true for the case of someone swiping an unlimited card (obviously the overwhelming majority of the time). It is not true if you pay someone who swipes a pay-per-ride.
However, I speculate that some in the TA may consider payment of $2 to someone who uses a discounted Pay-Per-Ride card the equivalent of "scalping" (bureaucracy, you know) - but I I think that the subtraction of a ride from your card makes my ride valid, so long as you consented freely.
It is very common on busses -- even encouraged by some bus drivers -- since NYCT still doesn't accept dollar bills. Person boards, realizes they don't have enough change for a $2 fare but have 2 singles. Often a person will volunteer to dip their pay-per-ride card in exchange for $2. On occasion, I have seen a driver ask for volunteers to do so.
If I recall correctly, NYCTA doesn't accept dollar bills because the bus depots use vacuum hoses to suck the money out of the fareboxes, and paper money would be shredded. But with higher and higher fares, it becomes ever more unwirldy to pay with coins.
Time for NYCTA to review its revenue collection methods? Or are there enough MetroCards around so it doesn't matter?
CG
See http://www.mta.info/nyct/rules/rules.htm#payment
CG
Since now it appears that paying a swiper is itself a violation of MTA rules, it would make sense for the police to start a crackdown by giving summonses to "swipees." Summonsing or arresting the swipers is of more limited value because most of them don't fear geting caught and treat fines or even jail time as mere business expenses. On the other hand, most of the people who pay for swipes presumably are otherwise law-abiding citizens, and would be deterred by the thought of getting a summons.
CG
It's only a problem if you don't have a MC with you that contains at least one fare. Easy to avoid with a little planning, Moreover, there's at least one staffed booth open at just about every station, as things stand now.
Arresting some old lady for paying for a swipe, especially if she's unaware of the law, or if exigent conditions exist, in no way solves the problem, and only serves to create a PR nightmare. Gotta "smoke em out" at the source...
I answered that it is, and that I've seen subway posters saying so.
Right, I recall now.
In public transit everywhere, there is trend away from just buying one fare at the time of travel. And the places that still do it are in Third World, where labour is cheap....
He probably was back out and plying his "trade" within a few hours.
Nice...
Maybe now they will see that being a fan isn't so bad after all...
What is so unbelievable about this? Any cop (or TA employee) who knows the law will tell you the exact same thing because...that's what the law says!
"DO WHAT I SAY,NOT AS I DO!".....
That whats so unbelievable about it.
I hate the Parks Dept volunteers that boss people around for feeding the birds just so they can show they have some power. I'd go into greater detail of a story, but I'll save it for a more appropriate time.
-Broadway Buffer
How's that for your tax money in the garbage cuz of some volunteering idiots. By any chance are u just sore, cuz u were one of those volunteers and know what I'm taking about. :-) Keep volunteering well, cuz I'd love to send all those corrupt ones down in a 1960 Buick La Saber and let them sell pickles on Orchard St!
People who feed birds are good. The ones that try to stop them...well, I hope they like pickles and that no birds try to eat them.
-Broadway Buffer
BTW. My mother does not hate birds or animals. She is also a volunteer wildlife rehabilitator. She frequently deals with birds whom have clogged crops due to having been fed foods that expand or harden inside of the birds. BTW. My mother is paid for neither of these acts of goodwill.
So Shut up with your idiotic rants. You have no idea what you are talking about.
Rice is often the worst of them, Plugs the crop right up.
I do know what I'm talking about on this issuse, I ranted because I was showing u that there are bad volunteers.
Any money being made on the pickle sales yet?
LOL, just playin :-) Got it from Mike Savage. He has some good ones, u have to say that.
Anyway, sorry for the ranting.
-Broadway Buffer
Rail buffs are transit allies. They should be treated as such.
Because it was meantioned on TV a good few times in the past and it was proven true already.
And a unlimited card is good every 18? minutes, so if you swipe one in, YOU HAVE TO WAIT. -_-
Columbus Circle is easy to reach. Why not pay a visit to Transit District 1? I' sure Captain Giantasio and his officers would be happy to share some knowledge with you.
Their phone number, by the way, is 212-258-2840.
Then come back and post here what you've learned.
:)
And front, too. :0)
You're about to start a creative war with Selkirk.
Great thread, great posts!
It's no wonder I don't come on this site that often. Too many conservative racist who uses this hobby to attack victims of society.
That's a good thing, continue that trend.
U should have never come back! Only one more liberal progressive to deal with and get us off topic with Bush conservative bashing!
-Broadway Buffer
McCain is the only one whom is of any fame.
In McCains ideal world Amtrak would get no subsidies, but neither would any other mode of transportation, so i think that amtrak would likely survive,
-Broadway Buffer
KIck backs, Enron....the MTA ...
Please,spare me the bullshit....about the governing bodies...
-Broadway Buffer
Read your US History.
Sometimes, evolving is a good thing.
James Madison, John Jay, and Alex Hamilton opinions are meaningless nowadays. This is in the age of terrorism and therefore they're stuff no longer counts. They were different from present day politicians. They actually cared about the people. Please live in the present and quote people still living.
-Broadway Buffer
Um, the British employed various tactics during the Revolution that were very similar to modern day terrorism - i.e., attacks on purely civilian targets.
All the issues of individual civil liberties vs. collective security of the nation existed back then too. The Alien and Sedition Acts were early attempts to tilt in favor of security at the expense of liberty.
-Broadway Buffer
I'd trust my representation with a career politician who knows what he or she is doing over the average Joe off the street any day. Not all politicians are corrupt, and you'd be ridiculously naive and unfair to assume so.
-Broadway Buffer
In other words, our politicians should vote for gay marriage regardless of public opinion, provided that they feel it's in the best interest of the nation. Considering our standard of majority rule, minority rights, many politicians feel that gay marriage/civil unions are in the nation's best interest. If politicians were supposed to vote depending solely on public opinion, the system would be even more corrupted. If it was supposed to work this way, we would make all the laws through referendums.
And terror attacks have nothing to do with our domestic agenda regarding gay rights.
http://www.nycrail.com/amb/otbrd/20-2.html
A lot of these folks got their start with petty thievery, shoplifting, token sucking and now swiping.
I'm sure they appreciate your encouragement. It's good to have friends...:0)
All of these were taken on the platform of a certain subway station, while I was bored out of my mind and took a break from playing dope wars to take thses pics. I won't say when/where because I have reason to believe that I was about 4 feet from a TA person/subtalker with a TA radio.
:)
ROFLMAO !!...........that's a good one !
Bill "Newkirk"
**BUT THERE IS NO SUCH LAW IN EFFECT YET**
The proposed ban is on photography taken while on NYCT property. Stand on the sidewalk and take pictures of anything you like.
But he was wondering whether those pictures would be illegal in the future because they are pictures FROM MTA property OF non-MTA property, not vice versa.
My reading of the proposed rules is that the pictures would in fact be against the rules.
Not sure how someone ranks the R as near to bottom of " Regularity of Service " while the rat-trap G train ranks number one. What constitutes " Regularity of Service " to the individual(s) who put this report together? Are points taken away because the R is a shuttle at night? I think that R service is pretty frequent during normal hours. I won't go check the schedules, but I have never waited as long for a R as I have waited for the G.
The R is the dirtiest in the system? Do not buy it. Ever ride the A? Or the supposedly cleanest E?
I think that those who wrote this report simply do not know the subway system and do not ride it.
A lot of people whine about the R because it is a local. But if you don't like locals, don't take the local.
The R is dependable for the most part, one with newer cars, and it gets the job done.
Now, the Lex on the other hand: unfortunately, since 2001 I've been working in the east side of midtown and have gotten to know the 4, 5 and 6 lines all too well. They are severely and painfully overcrowded. The fault for this is that of those who did not build the Second Avenue Subway years ago, but the fact remains that these are extemely painful trains to ride due to severe overcrowding. This goes beyond a mere " chance of getting a seat issue ". The Lex lines are Abu Ghraibs on wheels, and worthy of a major human rights investigation.
I find these Lex lines susceptible to major delays on a regular basis. Often there will be a supercrowded 6 train followed by two uncrowded ones, or that three 6 roll into Grand Central but no express trains, so that the next 4/5 is supercrowded. This is not an occasional problem, it is an every single day problem.
The idea that the 6 is the best overall is so laughable that it cannot be seriously discussed. I shall presume that the authors of this report want to demonstrate their sense of humor.
Long live the R. Down with the Lex.
Also, the R is okay in my book. It's headways are short and runs R-46 and is rarely overcrowded. New Yorkers' craziness about expresses which take a few minutes less is driving this negative comment. A few weeks ago, I was at Dekalb and let an uptown R go by. An uptown Q came in within aminute and I took it to 14thSt. I waited there and the same R showed up within 2 minutes.That's not so bad, is it?
W Broadway Local
W 00:00
R 00:08
W 00:10
R 00:18
W 00:20
R 00:28
...
Note that in this example both trains come every 10 minutes. But if your platform-arrival time is random, you'll see a W first 80% of the time!
I'm not saying this is the cause of your observation, but it should be kept in mind. Have you checked the schedules?
Also, if you arrive at the platform the same time every day, you might also see one train come first more often. I noticed this circa 1994 when I used to wait for an A or an E at 34th st at about 0615 (IIRC) to go to 50th. I noticed that the A train came with surprisingly regularity within a minute or two of the same time. So if you arrive at the platform with similar regularity, you might also see this "bias".
Then again, those weekend waits at Lawrence or Court can be killer...
That's because so many people are turned off by it. The waits are too long and it is too slow. The R passes through downtown Brooklyn, lower Manhattan, Union Square, and midtown. There's definitely a market. However, since the R doesn't perform as well as is should, people will only take the R to the nearest express stop where they'll transfer for the express.
And R ridership levels are good, even at night. The fact that the trains are not stuffed to bursting as is the accursed Lex is hardly a flaw.
OTOH, at least one train has to make the local stops, unless those stations are going to be closed completely down in the off-hours (and the Manhattan Bridge magically developed the capacity to handle the R in addition to the N and Q).
FWIW, I just take the R to the next express stop, whence I switch to an N, a Q, or a Queens Blvd express. If it wasn't there to make the local stop I need, though, I'd be pissed.
The Manhattan Bridge could handle all three lines in the middle of the night, even if the R ran, which it doesn't. But it doesn't because then those 6 stations on the tunnel route would have no service.
What I would love to see,is Coney Island yard/shop take over the G route from Jamaica...That way we will see more service,and more trains...Keep your stinkin R46 CARS....Give us whatever C.I. has and I bet everybody will be happy.
The G is at the mercy of the MTA,Queens politicians and so on.
Crappy service is whats to be expected from people in charge,who don't give a damn about a line that serves Brooklyn as a primary and not Manhattan...
If we can get people to see this line as a major sorce of transportation for the NABS it serves,rather than an annoyance to their commute,maybe it might see better service.
But I guess that doesn't matter much compared to what the LEX goes thru...Guess they should be rippin the MTA a new one for not building the Second ave subway years ago when the money was availible..
In any case,I AVOID the LEX at rush hours...so it's all good for me.
And which line isn't very heavily loaded at some point along its route? The only candidates I can think of are the J and the M.
Wow, where do I begin? THE R SUCKS AND IF I HAD A CHOICE BETWEEN TAKING THAT AND THE 6 I'D NEVER HESITATE TO TAKE THE 6 (AND MAYBE ANY OF THE LEX LINES BECAUSE WHILE THEYRE OVERCROWDED THEY SHOW UP). You're wrong when you say that if you dont like the R because it's a local then don't take the local. People take the local but not the R because it doesnt show up as frequently as a train should. The R, however, comes with a ratio of two to one when compared to W trains. Why do you think they kept the W after the Manhattan Bridge Project was completed? To supplement an inconsistent line such as the R in Manhattan.
And to say that the 6 is a laughter is the most bs I've ever heard because the 6 is what it is it may not be the best in the system but it is pretty damn good and way better than the R.
So in short, NEVER COMPARE THE R TO THE LEX BECAUSE ID PICK THE LEX ANYDAY AND IF YOU COMPARE THE IMPORTANCE OF THE LEX TO THE R YOU WOULD SEE WHY THE LEX IS OVERCROWDED BECAUSE PEOPLE RIDE IT. YOU CANT SAY PEOPLE RIDE THE R BECAUSE IN MANHATTAN PEOPLE DONT WAIT FOR THE R THEY TAKE WHAT COMES FIRST AND THATS THE W AND IF IT WASNT FOR THE FACT THAT IT IS THE ONLY LINE CONNECTING BROADWAY TO QUEENS BLVD PEOPLE WOULDNT NEED IT. FACE IT, YOU SHOULD BE HAPPY THE R IS AS LONG AS IT IS BECAUSE THE TRANSIT SYSTEM CAN DO FINE IF THE R IS MADE A SHUTTLE ALL TIMES ONLY IN BAY RIDGE BAY RIDGE AND THE W IS EXTENDED TO BKLYN and QUEENS BLVD DURING RUSH HOURS.
I KNOW THIS WILL BRING A LOT OF CRITICISM BUT IM ANGRY NEVER BRING DOWN THE 6 YOU CAN BASH THE LEX ALL YOU WANT BUT SAYING THAT THE 6 IS A LAUGHTER(YOU CANT OPERATE THE LEX WITHOUT THE 6)....THATS LIKE SAYING THAT THE WORLD CANT LIVE WITHOUT THE R TO ME...AND THAT IS TOTALLY POSSIBLE
you wrote that out to be one long run on sentence in some areas...and caps aren't needed....
we feel u....
I say this about the "N" because all the sections that run alone, it is very slow.... not until it gets into 36th Street, it starts to speed up. I just don't understand the logic. I just think the MTA has an ax to grid with the N train.
W Broadway Local
I LOVE YOU But you are somewhat incorrect. The "W" was kept in service because Astorians demanded it, because the "N" not the "R" was very inconsistant.
GO GO W
And also, are u in favor of the W going to Sea Beach Line with a split terminal. 1/2 W's end at Whithall 1/2 end at 86 St or Kings Hwy?
D.W.E.L. well
W Bwy Lcl
Whitehall St. or Astoria
D.W.E.L. well
GO GO W BROADWAY LOCAL
The "W" was kept because of how bad the "N" service was, which serves the Astoria community. And, often times I was using the "R" because even though it RARELY came, at least I had an option. The "N" was NEVER there, so usually the option wasn't really available to me.
W Broadway Local
The idea behind W service is that Astoria requires more tph than the N can provide and that Broadway local service needs more tph than the R can provide. The idea behind terminating the line at Whitehall St is that less trains should go thru DeKalb Av.
Whether the plan for Broadway is the best possible is another issue. But W service is consistent with the plan for Broadway and as long as that's the plan the W must be kept.
The 6 may be king for now but it could very well end up at the bottom if things are as they are now. And hell yeah the Eastside cannot rely on the Lexington lines forever, the SAS must be built!
Off the topic, if you felt slighted, you should see the rating that the "N" receive and it doesn't seem to have change, enough though it was put on the bridge. One wonders who could be behind this.
As for the "W", did we get a good rating? I hope so, because with this important line, people would be waiting a lot longer. Unlike before, you had to wait, wait, wait... and when you think nothing is coming, and "R" is staring at your face. If you were a "N" rider, you were wondering what the hell is going on, after seeing one after another "R's" entering the station. And then finally, the "N" comes in... tooooooo crowded to enter.. so you say, since I waited this long, I guess it wouldn't manner if I waited a few minutes more.. You then realize that a few minutes turned into 5,10,15 minutes.. And you began to dream that the "N" was actually there, and you were on it, going somewhere, like home.
W Broadway Local
you're an idiot, blow a goat.
I had an incident two weeks ago where I took the R train from Rector St to Pacific (to switch to the D..anyway..). From Rector all the way to Pacific, there was an R train in every station (maybe except one) going the opposite direction. Also, the R is clean and quiet. I walk from the PABT, through the dinge of Times Sq to get to the R train (or the W, whichever comes). The E train, which is what my other main option is, is usually dirty, even @ Chambers St where people come on to clean it, it is always crowded and the speakers don't always work.
Wait assessment, most likely.
The R is dependable for the most part, one with newer cars, and it gets the job done.
I'm not sure what the age of the car has to do with anything, but the newest car on the R is 25 years older than the oldest car on the 6.
W Broadway Local
They should require that private citizens be allowd to search all police packages at will. No warrant required!
Why are you posting this now? Don't make me bring out the dancing lock...
AND WHY THE CAPS? YOU JUST FOUND OUT ABOUT THIS?
On July 13, the D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals vacated a decision by the Surface Transportation Board that had granted the NYC Economic Development Corporation’s application for the “adverse abandonment” of Cross Harbor’s rail operations at the Bush Terminal Yards in the Red Hook section of Brooklyn — the case was essentially a move by the city to toss the small railroad/barge operation out of its NYC base of operations...
The thumb nail is that nycDOT wants that RxR yard for development plans.
They have already locked them out of their building. Once they deprive them of the float at 60th they'll either make a deal with NY & Atl to use the one at 65th or be closed out of NY.
NYCDot gets to back to the legal drawing board.
Current score: NYCH 1, NYCDot 0
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
I guess it the only time a R9 went to Staten Island...
Wrong:
-Chris
No
-Chris
SIRT's cars, while similar, could not multiple with AMUE equipment. since SIRT was owned by the B&O, different brake systems.
And now she sits in Staten Island, where Arnines feared to tread !
Bill "Newkirk"
SmarTrip supply low as sales soar
Since Metro shifted to a SmarTrip parking payment system on June 28, sales of the plastic rechargeable farecard that can be used to pay for parking, Metrorail rides and most Metrobus rides have soared. As a result officials believe they will run out of the cards before a new supply arrives.
Prior to the start of the SmarTrip-only parking payment program, sales of the cards averaged 8,000 per month (between May 1999 and May 2004). Since June 28, customers have been purchasing them at a rate of between 3,000 and 4,000 per day, most directly from new SmarTrip vending machines that are located inside 30 Metrorail stations.
Between June 28 and July 20, 65,000 SmarTrip cards were sold. Seventy-five percent were sold from the new SmarTrip vending machines; 14 percent from Metro sales offices; 5 percent through local commuter stores; 4 percent via the internet; and the remaining 2 percent via other means.
SmarTrip sales have been so high that Metro has sold in the last three weeks what it had been selling during an average eight-month period since SmarTrip was launched five years ago.
There is only one manufacturer of the SmarTrip chip that is in the cards and another manufacturer responsible for embedding those chips in the SmarTrip cards. Metro expects to receive 10,000 new SmarTrip cards by the end of the month and another 62,000 by mid-August. New orders are in the works for up to one half million cards. The high volume of SmarTrip sales can be attributed to several initiatives coming together at once. They include:
• the shift to SmarTrip-only parking payment program that was initiated on June 28;
• the installation of the SmarTrip vending machines inside 30 stations, making it easy and convenient for all customers (not just those who are parking in Metro facilities) to pick up a SmarTrip card;
• the continued installation of SmarTrip fareboxes on all Metrobuses (all but one garage of buses has the new fareboxes and those buses are expected to be fully equipped in approximately two weeks) which has created a demand for SmarTrip cards by Metrobus users;
• a surprising pre-September 11th resurgence of tourists to the region, which has resulted in an elevated purchase of SmarTrip cards by one-time-only users of the cards; and
• unprecedented high Metrorail ridership that saw June’s average weekday ridership top 700,000 for the first time and July’s average weekday ridership counts that have not yet seen the traditional dip that results from commuters who take a summer vacation.
In an effort to conserve SmarTrip cards until the next shipment arrives at Metro, officials have decided to temporarily halt internet sales of the cards, temporarily cease sales promotions targeted to non-parkers who ride the rail system; and delay an upcoming promotion of SmarTrip to bus customers that was designed to coincide with the installation of the SmarTrip fareboxes on buses.
When Metro runs out of SmarTrip cards, customers will be able to pay the parking fee by purchasing paper farecards in the exact amount of the fee. Parkers will then hand the paper farecard to the parking customer assistance representative who would be stationed at the lot’s exit gates. Customers who have SmarTrip cards will still be able to use them for quick exit.
The shift to the SmarTrip parking system has been extremely successful. Metro officials were lenient in allowing exceptions during the first week of conversion to the SmarTrip-only parking system, allowing for the transition period, however since then, less than 1 percent of daily parkers are given an exception to exit the parking lots.
Most of the approximately 250 parking-related calls to Metro’s customer service center since June 28 have been questions about how to get receipts; their wanting to know how to obtain a SmarTrip card; recommendations for improved signage; and complaints from one-time or occasional parkers who do not want to purchase a SmarTrip card. Metro has also received complaints about how Metro’s SmarTrip contractor has been experiencing difficulty keeping up with the high call volume since the launch of SmarTrip-only parking on June 28. The vendor has hired additional staff to handle the increase in calls.
If the LIRR wanted to get rid of that part of the Rock Park line that required use of the trestle in favor of the land-based line through Valley Stream, why didn't it just do so? Why did it also abandon the Rock Park spur itself and all of the stations until Far Rockaway? It seems to me that the company could have continued to run trains via the land line past Far Rockaway all the way to Rock Park.
It just so happens that after 1950 the LIRR indeed provided service as you suggested to Far Rockaway and Rockaway Park using the long route through Valley Stream and the Five Towns. Of course, for anyone boarding at Wavecrest or further west even the trip to Penn or Brooklyn would consume between 60 and 90 minutes. LIRR service continued this way until Oct. 1955, when LIRR service west of Far Rockaway was discontinued permanently. For the next nine months till July 1956 the LIRR viaduct was converted to subway operation and the trestle rebuilt using concrete to prevent fires. The interesting detail here is that after 1952 NYC actually owned the entire LIRR Rockaway Beach branch in Queens, so LIRR service between Far Rockaway and Rockaway Park was provided under a leaseback agreement. The truncated service from Penn Station to Ozone Park actually lasted until 1962 under the same leaseback agreement.
Stu v.
New York Division, ERA, Inc.
PO Box 3001
New York NY 10008-3001
--Mark
-Robert King
Ok, ok, so I'm kidding. Interviews with onsite/unnamed sources reveal that it's going to happen for a month and it's bullshit, because it's going to cause serious boarding delays (surprise) and won't work in the long run. I was asked if I was with the railroad (haha) and I replied that I was simply a railfan, so I got more candid commments. As always, me being me, I predicted that once the convention is over, the [flowering][vagina] that we call president will be safe at home and all the 'heightened awareness' will be relegated to the back burner once again.
Anyway, here's the SLE spiel:
I also took the time to update my album of New Haven photos
Enjoy, and remember, the next train you board could be bugged. Or, uhh...dogged.
Your pal,
Fred
Thanks Fred!
Enjoy
Your pal,
Zippy
Swipers: the squeegie guy of the 21st century. Where's Guiliani when you need him?
Share your photos with a tip line or your local transit police district office. You never know when you might get a cash reward for something...
But according to Jersey Mike, the MVMs die because of poor maintenance and not because they are helped along.
You forgot those "token suckers", that really sucked the lifeblood of NYCT's revenue in the 80's and early 90's. Now that tokens are a thing of the past, the Metrocard swipers are what they are today.
Just for my sake and everyone else, be very, very careful. Again, thank you and I applaud you that you are doing the right thing I have endorsed recently.
I was standing on one of the steps leading out of the station when I took his pic, and I will definately exercise extra care when around these guys if I decide to do this again.
And last, take only 1 to 2 pictures, DON'T stand there for more than 5 minutes. Better yet, make it look like you are talking to someone on your cell phone. When you "say bye" to "the person", point the camera at the offender real quick and take your picture. The swiper at 175th st really thought I was cursing someone out over the phone, and I laughed it off.
The whole thing took about 30 seconds, from profile change to exit.
Shall we say CHECKMATE to the MTA board if we are successful with the press?
BTW, the 23rd Street station is in Transit District 4. The police station location and phone/fax number can be found by looking at www.nyc.us/html/nypd. Select the precinct or transit district from a drop-down scroll list.
so im out of it
what is a swiper?
Since the Metrocard can be used again at the same station after 18 minutes, in theory such people could earn $2 every 18 minutes.
Metrocard rules specifically say unlimited cards are for use by one person only. You can't even loan them to your spouse in theory. You certainly aren't allowed to collect money for their use.
There is no such prohibition. Unlimited Ride MetroCard - Conditions of Use:
Cannot be used again at the same subway station or the same bus route for 18 minutes. The acceptance or solicitation of compensation for use of an Unlimited Ride MetroCard by other than authorized agents of MTA New York City Transit is prohibited.
Use of Unlimited Ride MetroCard is subject to MTA New York City Transit tariff.
You can't receive compensation for letting another person use your card. But, you can certainly give it to a family member when you're not using it.
We know that, but we cant hand them to a spouce, etc... on the SAME TRIP.
Robert
You have to have a balance between preventing crime, and causing inconvenience to the legitimate paying customer. Someone buying an unlimited is likely to be making lots of journeys - that's the point of the thing. So you have to think - what's the shortest time in which the card might be legitimately used twice at the same station, without having been used anywhere else in between? You enter the subway, make a trip, leave the subway, do something quickly at the other end (deliver a letter, say), walk back to your starting station, and then leave again from that station. Half an hour minimum?
In fact, the most likely reason for *legitimately* swiping twice in quick succession is that you entered a station, realised you'd made a mistake (left something behind, say), left the station again, and then you come back to continue your journey. For strangers in NYC, the most likely mistake to make would be entering the wrong side of a station that hasn't got a crossover. My wife and I got locked out for 18 minutes that way once.
Why the MTA chose 18 minutes I am not sure, but the idea is clear - they wanted to stop two or more people travelling together from all travelling on one unlimited, handing it back after each of them had gone through the turnstile.
.3 hours.
so if i swipe in at 23rd street on the Lex on the uptown side, and then realize that i meant to go downtown, i still have to wait 18 minutes???
Your other option is to just get on the train in the wrong direction and then transfer back at the first opportunity. In some to many circumstances that may be quicker than waiting out the 18 minutes.
Probably because it's approximately equal to the maximum overnight headway on most lines - that way, if one person swipes in and hands the card off to someone else, he'll have to wait for at least one full headway between trains in order to use the card again.
(Otherwise you could imagine the first person swiping in on the unlimited, and the next guy swipes in on the same card as soon as it becomes usable, and repeat as necessary for all members of the party, and if the train comes in they switch to Plan B and whip out their pay-per-rides.) If the cooling-off period is 18 minutes this scheme almost certainly isn't going to work unless you're willing to let trains pass by while waiting.
-Broadway Buffer
-Broadway Buffer
All NYC public schools are on the same master calendar. The master calendars are here. Students are warned on the last day before winter holiday break that using their student Metrocard during the break will result in a fine, something around $60, if I recall.
I don't know what the private schools do.
Dwight
But as for express service between Eastern Parkway and Myrtle/Broadway, they should build a single track line over Jamaica Avenue between just north of Alabama Avenue and Cypress Hills, and have express trains run in that "space for a third track" on the rest of the Jamaica Line, and then merge with the existing tracks where the connection to the middle track at 111th Street is.
It would run as follows:
Marcy Avenue
Myrtle/Broadway
Eastern Parkway
(via Jamaica El)
Cypress Hills
Woodhaven Boulevard
121st Street
Sutphin Boulevard
Jamaica Center
Newbies....
Anyway, There would be no need for any express station on the new one track express el over jamaica Ave between Broadway Junction and Cypress Hills. At Cypress Hills, the express track should rise over the Manhattan local track and decline through the station to the grade of the rest of the el, as to not have an at grade crossing west of Cypress hills - certainly no need to have expresses stop at a station that is the least used station on the J, and almost the system. Possibly, just possibly, do a raised express station at Woodhaven. But certainly not necessary at 121st St, the third least used station on the line.
Anyway, here's the stats for 2003 for the J line:
Rank in System - station - lines - fare counts for 2003
206. Myrtle Ave (J,M,Z) 1,807,114
214. Flushing Ave (J,M) 1,763,948
229. Marcy Ave (J,M,Z) 1,667,630 (skewed lower because the station was closed on and off for reconstruction during 2003 For the record, in normal circumstances it ranks just above Myrtle Ave in rank and count in normal years).
279. Crescent St (J,Z) 1,282,121
296. Halsey St (J) 1,187,842
298. Gates Ave (J,Z) 1,179,022
323. 85 St-Forest Pkwy (J) 1,009,608
327. 75 St-Elderts (J,Z) 982,298
328. Woodhaven Blvd (J,Z) 978,733
346. Lorimer St (J,M) 876,627
349. Norwood Ave (J,Z) 861,177
356. Kosciusko St (J) 808,385
357. Cleveland St (J)804,319
368. Hewes St (J.M) 725,563 (current stats show it higher than it used to be in 2002, but for 2003 remember Marcy was closed off and on for reconstruction, so 2003 is skewed).
375. 111 St (J) 687,681
376. Alabama Ave (J) 682,934
379. Van Siclen Ave (J,Z) 669,550
383. 104 St (J,Z) 627,813
386. Chauncey St (J,Z) 601,794
397. 121 St (J,Z) 525,808
407. Cypress Hills (J) 394,158
Gerry
I believe they also include out-of-system subway-to-subway transfers (at the handful of locations that they're permitted), but I may be wrong.
They don't include in-system subway-to-subway transfers, for obvious reasons.
Also why not just have the J run local all the way from Eastern Pkwy to Marcy and the Z running express? The M could run as the express from Myrtle to Marcy - this way the J would serve all stations 24/7 since the M{weekdays only}/Z{rush hours only} that are part time anyway
-imo
There's nothing wrong with the express track east of Myrtle, between Myrtle and Broadway Juction, no rebuilding necessary. It isn't used because of the skip-stop currently used on the line. It would make either the J or Z slightly faster than the other. This can be a particular problem in the outbound direction. You would have more of the "two Z's in a row, or two J's in a row, as opposed to alternating J and Z for the whole route.
-RJM
Was your M going to Bay Parkway or to Chambers? If the latter, then the J should have waited (in fact, it arguably should have waited long enough for the M to slip in front at Marcy, so passengers at local stops could get to Fulton and Broad without waiting 8-9 minutes to connect to the next J). If the former, then the C/R appears to have done what makes sense.
Is that English?
David
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
If they want to make the system work for everyone, people should propose this option, even if it does not include the single track on Jamaica Avenue. The infrastructure is already in place partly, and can be duoable of a little less of the cost.
W Broadway Local
I have said myself manytimes that service can be improved by rerouting one of the lines[JMZ]to Middtown...
express trackage along Jamaica Ave placed on concrete Elevated tracks will cut noise....so the nabs don't have to hear it...
And where do you plan on terminating one of those lines if they went to Midtown?
-Broadway Buffer
That'll get you to Midtown.
Actually, we've been waiting since the 20's for the 2nd Ave. subway. That's how far back the City wanted this.
Bill "Newkirk"
Speaking of the E train, and others on the Queens Boulevard subway, this has received capital upgrades since WWII. Just because the SAS remains unbuilt, this doesn't mean that nothing was done. The 63rd St. tunnel was built, in part, to increase capacity on the Queens Boulevard subway. Archer Avenue was built to increase utility. There will come a time when no more capacity will be able to be added to Queens Boulevard.
The J/M/Z contribute to overcrowding on Queens Blvd. in two ways. The first is the backtracking. The second reason is all of the people who take buses to Queens Blvd trains instead of the J/M/Z.
All the talk about improving this 19th Century El will only offer incremental improvements. It is ancient, and archaic, and it needs to go.
Will the MTA get right on this and replace it? No. The existing capital projects need to be executed first. Then we'll see.
1. Extend skip-stop service until midday to Manhattan, and in PM hours to Jamaica, on both the J and Z.
2. Let the Z run express from Eastern Parkway to Essex Street during the same time frame.
As a regular rider on this train, I assure you that most of the passengers from Jamaica get off at Eastern Parkway to change to the A, C or L.
The TA present frame of mind is to throw their resorces into the boro of MANHATTAN[as far as new subways are concerned]...
Remember during the New routes Program of the late 60's?....
they wanted to TEAR DOWN THE JAMAICA EL AS FAR AS CRESENT ST....NOT REBUILD IT....
The point? As much as I love what they have done with the system over the last 20 years....They have forgotten the riders in the so called "low priority" nabs....the work done to the Eastern Division wasn't done because they like us....the new cars aren't there because they like us...it was something they "HAD"to do...
either that,or watch it fall to the streets...
Someone needs to wake those jerks up,and remind them that NYC is not just Manhattan.
WE in the other boro's need new lines also....more than the West side of Manhattan,to serve a stadium that we don't even need.
As fo anything new getting built in Brooklyn, or els being replaced? I think the Fulton Subway replacing the Fulton St El is the last one you will see, at least in our lifetimes....
They can't even get a really necessary one built in Manhattan. There's not even a glimmer of hope for Queens and Brooklyn.
But as we all know,the MTA's will never make any attempt to ease our pains,well, the outer boro's,anyway..
The point is,they don't respect us,and told us in ways and actions...
Ron would have us believe that the MTA has done much for our city by rebuilding the system...But the real truth is this...
Did they have much of a choice? NO! Most of NY/NJ and Conn uses the subway/bus/commuter rail system...if the system stop running today or tommorow,you would see hell on earth...for real.
Most of Brooklyn's trackage are from another age,and is a reflection of that time....Look at the Sea Beach lines right of way,the West End EL...Rodgers Juction,the Livonia Ave El...I can go on and on...but you get the point...
The MTA has a choke hold on the people of NY.They know it...and it is WRONG.We can have a world class system,if we force them to see it the way we do.... New management,new lines,new stations and new modes of transportation will help rescue out failing transit system
and draw new passengers to it....
If there isn't any change,God help us....
I never wrote, or implied, that the MTA would do this anytime soon. In fact I wrote, "Will the MTA get right on this and replace it? No. The existing capital projects need to be executed first. Then we'll see." What time frame am I implying? After the ESA and SAS get done, it will be time to figure out how to extend the SAS to the Bronx, and the other way (probably Brooklyn, but it could be Staten Island.) Also, with Bloomberg Administration's plans for the Far West Side to get 28 million square feet of new office space, we could see subway expansion for that area beyond the 7 train.
So we're talking 2020 at the earliest before such a plan can be seriously proposed. Can it happen? Of course, but not if people are going to whine and complain about how the MTA doesn't serve the outer boroughs. The development of New York's subway's have historically been part of symbiotic relationship with the real estate industry. As soon as people grasp that, all things are possible.
We can get into the "meat" of it all..by looking at it from the Riders point of view...
And now that the Broadway corridor continues to have so much reconstruction and new construction along it, the population will continue to rise significantly. At Lorimer and Hewes St alone, there is a building boom. In the last year there are countless 10+ story apartment buildings being built on the south side of the el.
You can't recognize the area from just 5 years ago (in 10 years it will be totally unrecognizable if the current trend continues). A drive on any side street north of the el between Myrtle and Eastern Parkway will show an uncountable amount of new two and three story homes, and that's just the empty lots. Many of the existing buildings are being refurbished too.
The TA will no longer be able to ignore the corridor, as it's growth is going to go fast. The L is currently the fastest growning line with a 5.5% increase in passengers a year for the last 8 years. Watch for the J to also increase in passanger loads in the coming years.
The families have returned,business has returned...
LIFE has returned...the TA's refusal to reconize this with service improvements is a slap in the face to everyone involved....that being all of use...
And where do you plan on terminating one of those lines if they went to Midtown?
This has been discussed many times. The V terminates at 2nd Ave, so combining the V with a route that crosses the WB works very nicely.
Other suggestions include swapping the C and V routes south of W 4th (the switches exist to do this) and then combining the C (which is already 8 cars) with a WB route.
David
(a) The number of people who transfer from the JMZ to the F at Essex indicates considerable demand.
(b) Merging the C or V with a WB train doesn't require a new terminal.
(c) Similarly, such a merge doesn't take a single additional piece of rolling stock. It could even reduce rolling stock, since 2nd Ave is closer to the WB than Broad St is.
There are still plenty of reasons why it might not be a good idea, but these aren't the reasons.
(b) My comment was more along the lines of, "OK, now where does the route end?" than, "There's no space anywhere."
(c) The poster wanted the route to go to midtown Manhattan. Second Avenue-Houston Street is nowhere near midtown. Terminating at Second Avenue, assuming it could be done, wouldn't do much good for anybody -- it's not much of a destination in itself, and the people who are headed for lower Manhattan get inconvenienced.
David
One alternative I've suggested, which would be much more complicated but potentially more beneficial, is to send the V to Canarsie. The L would get cut back to Broadway Junction, with more frequent service, since the current Canarsie terminal appears to be the bottleneck on the line. The J/Z would extend its express run to Broadway Junction but would otherwise be unchanged. The M would run express between Myrtle and Marcy. Jamaica and Myrtle line passengers would have a slightly faster trip into Manhattan, with easier transfers to 6th Avenue service. Outer L passengers would have less frequent service, but it would go to Midtown. Inner L passengers would have more frequent service. Broadway el passengers wouldn't lose any service, and their trains would go to Midtown. In other words, most passengers would benefit. My back-of-the-envelope calculations indicate that the car requirement would remain nearly constant (I came up with an increase of one train's worth, but my numbers weren't exact). The big question is whether the interlocking at Myrtle would be able to handle so much traffic.
"Back in the day" means little today. Operating practices have changed.
My question is though why would the M be made express between Myrtle and Marcy. (I don't have a problem with that, but just wonder what your reasonings are). If the am was local, passengers at Flushing to Hewes would have both downtown and midtown service. I know in the historical service patterns, the M also ran express in that segment though. To me that would seem "harder" on the interlocking at Myrtle, but maybe there is something I am missing, as maybe it makes it simpiler for some reason. Again, I wouldn't have a problem either way.
No strong reason: just the desire to minimize trip times and car requirements while adequately serving everyone. The southbound M express would probably use the local track to avoid some of the mess at Myrtle. If a lot of local passengers are bound for lower Manhattan, or the V alone can't handle the load, then the M could run local along with the V.
It would not involve major shifts in services throughout the system, making it a smooth transition.
I disagree here. The shifts would be quite major. But they'd also benefit a lot of people, I think.
(c) The poster wanted the route to go to midtown Manhattan. Second Avenue-Houston Street is nowhere near midtown. Terminating at Second Avenue, assuming it could be done, wouldn't do much good for anybody -- it's not much of a destination in itself, and the people who are headed for lower Manhattan get inconvenienced.
(a) Very crowded connecting stairs during whenever a train comes into one platform. it may not be enough crowding to justify a WB to midtown train, but it is considerable traffic.
(c) A WB train can't actually terminate at 2nd Ave. I thought you were familiar enough with what gets posted here to realize that I meant: take a train that would otherwise have 2nd Ave as its southern terminus, and connect it with an existing WB route instead.
David
If by some chance it's not, either slightly decrease J/Z headways, or add a Bay Parkway to Essex St "M" train rush hours. The M would be abolished anyway if the V was extended to Metro Ave, so the M would be a surplus letter, not to mention that West End people are already used to it.
Exactly. In addition, it would cut down on the amount of people transferring off the M at Wyckoff for the L. The reason people do this is because those people also want midtown. The reason they get off at Wyckoff (I did this myself) for the L is because the M-L-and some midtown transfer train is a shorter route than the M all the way downtown to a Nassau transfer just to go back up. If the M-V went directly to midtown from Essex, it would be faster than the three train and wait times for the M-L-midtown train scenario.
So yes there is CONSIDERABLE demand for this Exodus from the M at Wyckoff and again at Essex shows there is considerable demand for this.
Public relations is the difference. "V" has a nice ring to it, but if you go back to "KK", you have history. I believe that we should respect our history, while seeking to improve it. How do you make the old "KK" one better? Call it the "KKK." I think that most people will understand the desire to improve on our subway history, and maybe, just maybe, a "KKK" route will get some news coverage.
David
David
A direct Metro to midtown train will keep many of those riders on the M too, as opposed to transferring to the L. As it stands, it is faster to take the M to the L to midtown connections than to take the M all the way downtown just to go back up again.
If there was a direct midtown train from Metro, that route would be faster, and more people wouldn't get off for the already overtaxed L line.
Those aren't the criteria NYCT uses in other places when it decides that it's worth splintering lines to give more people a direct ride to their destination.
After all, the system could perfectly well handle all of the following:
- All Flatbush trains going to the W side of Manhattan
- All 4th Ave expresses going over the S side of the MB and all Brighton trains going over the N side
- All 6th Ave trains going to the Concourse and all 8th Ave staying in Manhattan (oh, never mind, they already do that).
Anyway, there may be very good logistical reasons for not sending any WB trains to midtown, but it's far from being a pointless idea. There's plenty of evidence that M trains to midtown would be more crowded than M trains to 4th Ave in Brooklyn.
The only problem with that,there aren't enough burritocraps behind it,and without political backing[like the riders along the Queens Blvd subway route have]there is little chance anything will change.
Thats where the riders and VOTERS come in..
If you want change,you got to fight for it,no matter how much the MTA says they "can't do it"....
You scream loud enough...they do something...
David
Well if that's what you got from the horse's mouth, it's got a good chance of being true.
But the planner seems pretty unimaginative if one of the reasons he gave for not sending the M to midtown is that there would be no place to terminate it. If he hasn't got the imagination to consider combining the M and V, he's probably in the wrong job.
Like I said before...HOW can someone who doesn't like along the line,nor ride it's trains..[how about not riding trains at all] tell you what service you don't need?
These guys that plan the lines,don't know jack....
if they did..they would fix the A train problem,fix the JMZ problem,fix the 2/5 problem in Brooklyn and the Bronx...thru route some 6th ave trains to lower Manhattan....
STOP LIVING IN THE FREAKIN STONE AGE...and give the riders what they need....
Try balancing the needs of various constituencies against the system's structural design and the operating and capital funds available some time, instead of just going for what would help you as an individual rider.
David
I just don't understand him saying to you that one reason for not sending the M to Manhattan is there'd be no place to terminate it. That just suggests a failure of imagination. I suppose he may have ruled out merging the M with the V for other reasons, and therefore that possibility no longer occurs to him.
That makes it worse not better......
David
W Broadway Line
But in all seriousness, as I said elsewhere in this thread, anybody who really wants to know what NYCT's thinking is on this issue as of 2004 (I last asked two or three years ago, when the subject came up here on SubTalk) should write to NYCT and ask. Direct the inquiry to Operations Planning at 130 Livingston Street - 3rd Floor, Brooklyn NY 11201 (the inquiry can also be made through the feedback page at www.mta.info).
David
That's a very good point. Is the V train packed when it leaves, or enters Queens Boulevard? I often use it, south of 34th Street, and I never see it packed.
W Bwy
But if not, the proposal to juggle the locals at West 4th and send the C over the Williamsburg Bridge (and the V to Euclid, presumably) still stands, unless plans are in place to lengthen C trains.
My point is the V can be operated as a merged line with the M by adding the M lines trains and swiching rolling stock... While it's a toss up wither the V can operate along Queens Blvd with shortened trains...I HAVE PERSONALLY seen the V train operate with its center cars damn near emty and the end cars full....and the reverse happen too...!
So the line can be ran with 8 cars of 60ft[the way the N/EE/and GG trains did when it ran there....I doute there will be any overflow,as the train runs 9 TPH along it's length...
More so,why haven't they issued any type of survey,asking riders along the 6TH AVE,BROADWAY BROOKLYN JAMAICA,14TH ST,MYRTLE AVES and FULTON ST....if this is a service they would like to see running...?
Isn't this what they did for the service changes that happened this year?
There is more demand for this that people think, the amount of people getting off at Essex should show that, but they also must consider all the people getting off at Wyckoff for the L, or Broadway Junction for the A/C or L. Many of those people are also looking for midtown service that they aren't getting.
The main issue is ,how do we get the MTA to look past it's bias toward the Eastern Division...and look at the nuMbers at KEY STATIONS such as ESSEX/DELANCEY,MYRTLE/WYCKOFF,CANAL,WEST 4TH,BROADWAY JUNCTION,JAMAICA CENTER and other stations along the various lines affected...
Another fact that the MTA MAY NOT WANT this service is depending on the on the 14th street subway's ablity to carry run more trains once CBTC is up and running the line...
We have to voice our needs...if there's no voice you get nothing..
David
I don't know about more direct, but there are more effective ways. I would Find out who the leading real estate developers are along Brooklyn's Broadway. Make a rational case to them that this is good for the MTA and for the value of their real estate. Then get them to form an ad hoc coalition to enact this service. The MTA is more likely to listen to economic powers than to an average rider.
W Bwy
The Eastern Division operates 18 trains on the J/Z during rush hours and about 10 trains on the J during middays....there is plenty of room on the lines to run a branch to the 6th ave line...
Better use of the money could be used to extend the platform lengths of the "S" shuttle and so how connect it to the "A" "C" lines.
Also, they need to really reconsider building that connection b/t the M/R BMT and the A/F IND.
other connections includes connecting the uptown #6 with the B/D/F and V lines. and the 3/L at Livonia Avenue if it should be mentioned.
W Boadway Local
I want to go further by saying it should be the Rush Hour peak express. Other times, it should terminate at the Essex Street station where it would wait at the center track.
W Bwy
With that much service frequency, wouldn't it affect the J/M/ and Z lines?
W Bwy
I have often advocated this. One thing I didn't know but recently learned reading "line by line" is that this idea was considered and shot down 40 year ago. But a lot changes in 40 years.
Your "English" is so terrible, that I don't even bother to read your posts. If you take the time to post something, you probably want people to read it and give it respectful consideration. By posting the way you do, no one will take you, your ideas, nor your opinions seriously.
Please try again.
If you make it difficult for us to read your posts, you won't get the kinds of replies you want. Also, you won't get your ideas across. What's the point of posting if your audience can't understand what you say?
Please type more slowly; use punctuation, and capitalize the first letter in each sentence as well as proper nouns (names of people and places). We'll understand you better, and vice-versa.
Reconfiguring the route layout between Myrtle and Eastern Pkwy has no clear benefit, but actually a subtle drawback. I shall observe two key areas:
1) Time Savings: If there is any time saved by anyone, it is a matter of seconds. Currently, Z riders east of Eastern Pkwy skip two stations between Eastern Pkwy and Myrtle. So now they would skip two more. Figure you gain one minute and ten seconds (35 sec a stop) by doing this. Meanwhile, those 4 stations in the middle do not lose service frequency, but the J train has to take on 2 extra stations, making for an unbalanced load between the J and Z into Manhattan. Not only that, but making the J and Z run on different trackage, even for a short while, means you have to worry about merges. Currently, there is no merging problem at Myrtle in the AM, but you would make one between the J and Z. This is ignoring the fact that the Metropolitan bound M has to cross over the whole thing every once in a while. That 70 seconds we thought we saved? I'd say it will be lost almost if not completely in full at this switch.
2) Train loads: As I said above, you are taking two stations from the Z and giving them to the J, making for an unbalanced ratio of stations. You may think that J riders, upon reaching E Pkwy, will look across the platform for a Z, but soon they will realize that the time savings is little if anything, and just stay on their J, keeping things unbalanced.
W bwy
Those R-32s left a profound impression on me. Their sleek looks, blue doors and green backlit "57th St." side signs were permanently etched in my memory that day. Not to mention their smooth, swift riding characteristics. Budd really outdid themselves on these great cars.
-Dave
No references to any award for him, please.
(He'll probably sue and get big bucks)
And in reality, it did. This individual would get close to the tracks and display an offending digit to the train crews - in essence, challanging them. He played this game, regularly with the crews. This time he lost.
True, but on this board, they'll still get nominated at times...
I'd wish they fined you based on economic impact. Drive carelessly/recklessly during rushhour and wreck, the repo men come by to take your house and wife or girlfriend and sell them for you know what.
Chuck Greene
1. This august there will be many fleet swap changes either temporary or permenant. The 7 may get its first R-142A.
2.He laso told me thatfrom his knowledge and the things he heard in the MTA the R-160 will problably go to Either the E or the F lines ,but the E looks like to have the more chances due to its old fleet. Now that may change untill the R-160 Comes.
What is the routing and lunch stops for this weekend's MOD trips?
I'm afraid I have to question Sunday's routing. The Culver line is cut off from Manhattan at its north end. And on the Sea Beach, runbys are virtually impossible due to a GO that closes the southbound local track. (Here's how we could get a runby: Run south along the line and drop everyone off at 86th Street. Relay, let one or two N trains get ahead, and wait up ahead on the express track at 59th Street, as N's divert to the local.)
Despite the rain, I wish we had done the Sea Beach last weekend. There have been no Sunday trips yet on the Sea Beach, and gate cars are most enjoyable to ride on true elevated lines (wave to all the stunned people downstairs!), so I was looking forward to a photo or two.
That is news to me
And the R-9's do?????????
Any info on this would be helpful, thanks.
So at first it was park row station and then city hall station before closure of the spur then? Makes sence.
Gun Hill Rd, Bronx
Lefferts Blvd, Queens
3rd Av - Fulton St Express
As for the other poster, you say it was always Park Row station, yet on the map it was cityhall later on, so it wasnt always park row name wise.
The BMT's Park Row stop was a different structure, located south of the IRT City Hall stop. It was located around where the Brooklyn Bridge roadway connects with Centre Street today.
http://www.angelfire.com/games2/poke123/Park_Row.jpg
I got a 2nd image that I didnt upload, but it was said to be the 3rd ave el, yet was the upper lv as somebody said the upper was 2nd ave el. So??
Looks like someone was taking pictures.......
They were detained at NWK, Newark Penn; not EWR, Newark Airport. Amtrak doesn't have an EWK station.
If the authorities believed there was a bomb or other device which could have injured passengers, why were the passengers kept on the train?
Conversely, if there was no immediate danger, but the authorities wanted to check the passenger roster, why couldn’t they do this while the train was under way? (Controlling who boarded or departed the train, which would have introduced a delay, but nothing like sitting for 90 minutes doing nothing)
I think we’ll start seeing more of these pranks. I think we could do with some more intelligent responses.
This, like the the Shoreline East" let's kill em ALL *ON the train* "gauntlet security" nonsense is all photo op, no meat. Oh, if only people would READ the 9/11 Commission book instead of the media spin, the torches would be in the air, the people would be marching, and congress would NOT have gone home yesterday saying "Homeland Security? NEXT year's problem. :(
And all those Ridge pronouncements that we was gonna get blowed up *THIS* year ... *SOON* even ... ah well ... who gives a rat's asp? :(
NERO ... White House ... la-de-dah. :(
Arnines, LowV's, HighV's, Standards, BU's are fun.
Most dangerous man in the Bu$h Administration: John Ashcroft.
Best comment on Tom Ridge from a Pennsylvania railfan of my acqaintence: "we got rid of him :-)"
Ride streetcars, don't make war.
It's worth every penny of sweat equity.
:)
-Robert King
I have a friend from Missouri who said the same thing about Ashcroft - and they elected a dead guy over him!
Spotted an R68 W yesterday during the PM rush, consisting of trainsets
To Whitehall < 2794 - 2796 AND 2888 - 2890 > to Astoria
They were all signed "W" on the sides of the train, the signs between the 4th/5th car had "N"
This set was actually running on the N earlier in the day, as I spotted 2890 on the N (I like train numbers that add up to "19")
This happened once before, but it was just incorrected signed. The front sign had W, but all the rest had N and it was an "N"
No such luck this time, I waited for the N that followed @ 57th Street.
Jonathan
Hmmm, is that a mismatched set? Normally 2794 and 2796 wouldn't be in the same 4-car set. (should be 2794-5-3-2 and 2796-7-9-8)
If it still runs From CI that takes alot of Time Runing Light From CI.
At least some of the trains go into service in the morning and go out of service in the evening via the Sea Beach and Fourth Avenue Lines, carrying passengers and making local stops.
David
I don't want to waste Dave's bandwidth, but if you want to know why I've taken this step e-mail me at vampire-state@att.net and put "Civic Union 2020" as the subject. I particularly encourage those under 40 to do so, since "generational equity" is one of my main themes, and you should know about it.
It is also what is most "on-topic." As many of you know, I have been upset for years about the high level of debt, and low level of current revenues, in the 2000-04 MTA Capital Plan. Those chickens are, sadly, coming home to roost, but I want to serve notice that the maintenance and improvement of our infrastructure must continue, paid for out of current revenues. They'll have to find something other than our future to sacrifice.
Also, due to Hatch Act issues I have had to resign my position with NYCT to run. I did so last Friday, after finding out I had, in fact, managed to get on the ballot; my going away lunch is next Wednesday. But don't worry about me financially, the wife is the chief breadwinner here, and by agreement after doing my civic duty I'll be doing what she and the daughers want me to for some time to come.
Larry Littlefield
Brooklyn, NY
I was in the Capital Program, which is partially federally funded. It is also a TA Policy that its employees generally can't run for public office, but there are exceptions, which my bosses, who wanted very much to retain my services, wanted to pursue. But as per legal, the TA Policy is based on the Hatch Act, and if federal funds are involved, it applies. Besides, I didn't want to cause trouble for anyone, least of all NYCT.
As far as I know, most every state as well as the District of Columbia have laws or regulations regarding political actives by government employees that are similar to the federal Hatch Act.
John
While everyone at SubTalk disagrees from time to time on what the "right" policies are, I think everyone would agree that you have always looked towards the right thing to do for the people and not the right thing to do for yourself. I also like that you've always seemed to let the specifics of the problem guide you to your solution rather than a strict ideological reliance.
Your neighbors will be very fortunate to have someone like you representing them. I hope you can make it happen.
CG
Your pal,
Fred
Your pal,
Fred
And being represented by the law offices of Dewey, Cheatham, and Howe...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
90% of the members of the Maryland General Assembly have LLB degrees and many are in private practice, since the Assembly only meets 3 months of the year. Gotta have something to "fall back on".
When you think about it, becomming a candidate is like announcing that you are looking for another job. Perhaps most don't have to leave their jobs, as I did, but it can't be good for the career. So running for office is something lawyers in private practice can do, and those who are pols and nothing else can do, but not people with regular jobs. Another option is a person whose spouse earns more than they do, like myself, but only if you have made a practice of living on one income and saving/giving away the rest, as we have.
Which brings up a point -- why don't more women run for offices like this? The people who helped collect signatures to get me (and others) on the ballot were almost all single women. They've got the time. I asked them why they were doing it, and they said they wanted to help their community and made a difference, then I asked them if they themselves would consider doing it, and they said they would rather help others. Well, putting yourself out there is uncomfortable, but someone's got to do it.
Holding a political office often is good for a lawyer's business, as it gives him contacts and connections which help draw clients. It would not surprise me if most lawyers who serve in political offices have private practices that are mainly business-related, as that's where the contacts made in office are most likely to help, as opposed to things like divorce or personal-injury law.
Which brings up a point -- why don't more women run for offices like this? The people who helped collect signatures to get me (and others) on the ballot were almost all single women. They've got the time. I asked them why they were doing it, and they said they wanted to help their community and made a difference, then I asked them if they themselves would consider doing it, and they said they would rather help others. Well, putting yourself out there is uncomfortable, but someone's got to do it.
It's probably attributable to one of those basic personality differences between men and women.
Thanks for that point. The way I figure it, if the United States is what it is, you consider yourself a citizen, and things aren't going the way they should, you have a duty to stand up once. And you don't have to win to win -- just attract enough attention and votes to make a point and perhaps shift things a little.
In contrast, the incumbent in my district, and all of those in the New York State Legislature, have lost by winning. Yes they have kept their jobs by keeping competitors off the ballot, but only by going along with a system that makes them irrelevant. Why bother going there if you don't really want to do anything? The job only pays what the average college-educated American earned in their jobs in 2002.
Which is wrong. The original pay was based on part-time work, as Selkirk pointed out, mostly confined to the winters so that farmers could be legislators.
I don’t think that’s really appropriate for the 21st century. Members of the Assembly and Senate should be full-time and paid appropriately. They should be required to put in so many hours each week in the legislative house and so many hours in their home districts.
Then they need to rewrite the rules so that New York state has real representation rather than a triumvirate dictatorship.
I'd be satisfied if they actually worked part time.
(Then they need to rewrite the rules so that New York state has real representation rather than a triumvirate dictatorship.)
The members of the state legislature are irrelevant by choice. The only threat they face if they rebel is the threat of a real election against a candidate backed by the machine. If they faced real elections anyway, they wouldn't act the way the do.
This means you face a real uphill battle! Best of luck!
Especially since I'll be trying to, among other things, advance the interests of the unorganized, apathetic next generation, which seems to neither read newspapers nor vote. How to contact them and let them know what I have to day?
There is this site NYC Bloggers.com that has their blogsites. What is interesting and on topic about it is that it organizes bloggers by home subway station. If you think about it, it is a great way to identify, in a general sense, where a NYC (other than a Staten Island or eastern Queens) resident lives. Much better than a specific address, since most people do not know the street grid.
So, with the rain keeping me in, I've been e-mailing all the bloggers who may live in the district I will be running in -- right down the F from 4th to Ditmars, and a couple of stations on the Q. A couple of responses so far. We'll see when they get home.
Some pictures of the subway on these sites, but not as many as I would like. Lots of pictures of cats.
There's a similar site for London. Quite cool.
Or Southeastern Brooklyn.
Which in many states is exactly what they do. How does one reconcile the need with full time legislators in NY with the fact that in Texas (with a larger population than New York) the state legislature meets for just 4 months in odd numbered years and not at all in even numbered years?
BTW, why the heck is the state capital in Albany, and not in NYC?
I think it's because Albany is more centrally located in the state (though Utica or Syracuse would be even more so...)
Some (usually eastern) state capitals tended to get located in small towns/cites far enough away that the political power in the biggest city would not be able to influence the goverment outside of the legislative session.
Maryland's capital is Annapolis, Pennsylvania's is Harrisburg. Neither was easy to get to in the 19th and early 20th Centuries, but today both are a hour drive from the big cites.
til next time
#3 West End Jeff
New York City Subway Cars
By James Clifford Greller ISBN 0964576503
http://www.nycsubway.org/biblio/major.html
http://www.railfanwindow.com/gallery/album26
til next time
IIRC ALL R36s had unpainted seats and windowsills as well as rubber window frames AND orange interior doors upon return from GOH. they were also white on the outside I think.
R28: MK; Hornell, NY 1985-86
R29: MK; Hornell, NY 1985-87
R33 ML: 207 St; 1986-92
R33WF: Corona, Coney Island; 1985-86
R36 ML: 207 St; 1984-86
R36WF: Corona, Coney Island, Amtrak, Beech Grove, IN & Wilmington, DE, GE, Buffalo, NY; 1982-86
Also, a company called Mechtron (which I never heard of before or since) did a few (4?) R-36s.
David
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/22/nyregion/22restrooms.html
--Mark
Some bathroom visits require more than five minutes. Perhaps they can designate some stalls as express and others as local?
Crap. Total Crap.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
They are good running units and have always been very reliable.
Clearly, however, they are in their sunset years.
Are there any definite plans for their retirement?
Hard to believe but even the newest R46's are turning 30 soon. I remember when they were brand-new on the F line.
David
David
That's true, and generally they look very good for their age. I did notice something recently though, i.e. the side panels, on many cars, where the door lights are installed, (to the left of the railfan window) have very rusted hinges that look like they're about to disintegrate.
Other than that they look better than their carbon steel counterparts, especially on the picture windows, which don't have that ugly water corrosion that the redbirds and earlier units had.
wayne
R32 out of service:
3616 (scrapepd, no other info available)
3620 (stored out of service. Yard accident, bent frame)
3629 (wrecked, mate survived)
3651 (scrapped, no other info available)
3669 (wrecked, mate survived and was renumbered)
3766 (scrapped, no other info available)
til next time
You said it brother. I must admit when I caught my first "T" train, in Brooklyn, back in '65 It didn't seem to me then that they could last this long even with a major overhaul; and only *one* at that. It tells you a lot about the durability of a wisely devised stainless steel design.
In hindsight, its really too bad that the mainline (IRT) and Flushing line rolling stock purchases of the years 1959 - 1965 weren't stainless steel (from The Budd Co., of course). The "Redbirds" *would've* been the "Silverbirds" and maybe still be around today on the Flushing, Lex and 7th Ave lines, in lieu of a lobster cage.
R-32.
The newest R46's wont be 30 years old until 1977. The oldest ones will be early next year.
Don't forget the PATH PA1's turn 40 soon as well.
Da Hui
til next time
I have to admit, that I first rode a GOH R32 in 1990 and thought they were NEW cars. I used to spend summers in Queens and I had never seen them before on the Queens Blvd. line, and I thought they were a big step up in terms of comfort over the R46s on the E.
I remember riding a pre GOH R 32 on the R in 1986, and thought that with air conditioning these would be the best cars in the fleet. I didn't make the connection until I visited the Transit Museum in 1990 between the steamy car I rode in 1986 and the sleek, cool, and comfortable R32 I boarded four years later.
In the case of the R-32 fleet, it received a far more comprehensive overhaul than the R-36 fleet did, and components have been replaced since the cars came back from Morrison-Knudsen under SMS (Scheduled Maintenance System). Thus, while it is possible that the cars will get used parts from scrapped cars, it isn't very likely (what was kept, anyway?).
David
til next time
David
It looks like the folks in Hamilton County are finally planning ahead for the future. They better not even think of going the Rapid Bus route because that's a waste of money.
http://www.indystar.com/articles/1/164386-6291-098.html
Not just one big circle, but two big circles and one little one.
John
I'm sure those folks are livid about this new rail line they will have to subsidize with TAXES! Funny how the Cox folks don't mind all their taxes going on road construction and repairs
I have a pic back from February and I believe it had the logo on them then. I'll check when I get home. How long have those signs been around?
Example: http://www.34thstreet.org/map/maptarget.php?map=35-36and6-7
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
Very well. The TGV routes in France were completely new lines built for high speed (like the Shinkansen lines in Japan). A totally different situation to this one in Turkey.
Link at ABC News.com
So are the USA and Canada; are they in Europe?
It's about time someone brought that up.
And besides, the real question is about the trains, where they were built, and the standards to which they were built. If they were built to European standards, then anything said about European standards is valid. It wouldn't surprise me if the train were built to European standards, since that's the most likely place for Turkey to buy their trains, and it fits in with their whole push to get into the European Union.
Mark
Correct, except it's the Bopphorus, which is the very narrow sea (no wider than the Hudson River at NYC) alongside Istanbul. The Dardanelles is further south, nearer the Mediterranean.
Istanbul straddles the Bosphorus, with frequent ferries going to and fro between the European and Asian sides of the city. Trains from Istanbul to Ankara (like the one involved in the crash) and all other destinations in Asian Turkey leave from Haydarpasa station, on the Asian bank of the Bosphorus. Trains to European destinations leave from Sirkeci station, in the European part of Istanbul.
What's saddest of all about this is that New York CITY is the ONE place in "uh-Merica" that PRIDES itself on its many languages, international recognition, and the ability to absorb and "grok" cultures that don't exist only in Tex-ASS. I am SO disappointed that the New York of international recognition "ain't what it used to be." :(
Je ne comprends pas.
Ik begrijp niet.
Ich Verstehe nicht.
Non capisco.
No entiendo.
Hopefully, once we rid ourselves of the australopithecus in power, we can once again become one world, cognisant that there's more to the planet than Orlando. :)
We've got an "education president" ... I rest my case. (grin)
But SINCE you axed ... (grin)
http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm
Read it ... I think America's had enough of this drug-induced nukular stupor. :(
There's a mountain range called the Ural Mts. If you're west of the drainage divide, you're in Eirope, if you're east, you're in Asia.
One issue that's not fully settled is whether the Caucasus Mountains divide Europe from Asia. Some geographers consider Armenia, Georgia and Azerbaijan part of Europe, most say they're in Asia.
Armenia and Georgia are European. Azerbaijan's Asian.
The point is that Turkey is a rogue state with no respect for international law. They continue illegally to occupy part of Cyprus and looking further back, they are in violation of the Treaty of Sčvres (part of the Peace of Paris which ended WWI). Once they withdraw from the lands they illegally occupy, they would be very welcome to join Greece in Europe.
As to using it in the various parts you mentioned, all of them rub or wear against something else which makes it a doubly (triply) bad idea.
Extracting titanium metal is quite cheap. Machining it and welding with it, as Mike Brotzman points out, is expensive.
The photo below shows a comparison.
The car in the bottom of the photo is R7A #1575, rebuilt after an accident to become the prototype for the R10. The end door is aligned so that it is perpendicular to the car sides. The other car (R4 #401) has a door "track" that is angled.
Ever since I took this photo, I have wondered why the R1-R9 cars were designed in this way.
Gerry
Some data history from myself who hand-built, and modeled most types of NYC Transit cars over the past 40 years in HO and O Scale...and as a transit historian and was originally a trained draftsman-----
That "angled storm door" design was originated for the IRT with the 1906 built Deck Roof Hi Cars in 1906 and the angled end storm door was designed to slide PARALLEL to the (its) similarly angled exterior carbody end wall and its door pocket and interior vestibule pocket wall. The Deck Roof cars also had slightly narrower wooden end storm doors and both exterior carbody end walls were correspondingly a bit wider than later design for the Headley "standard body" Hi-V and later Low-V and Low-V Steinway bodies. The end vestibule sliding (wooden) carbody side doors were also a few inches wider than later cars had !!
The 1904 IRT Gibbs Car had swinging end storm doors as originally built, hinged at the edge of the motorman controls side carbody end-wall. That storn door lined up when closed at a 90 degree square right angle (not slightly off angle) to the carbody side walls when closed to the exterior carbody end angled bulkhead walls....and NOT angled like the later designed Deck Roof Car and later pre war cars.
HOWEVER, a large number of the original steel Gibbs cars that later received the upgrading with MUDC doors feature with new steel end side doors also had the end swinging steel storm doors replaced with new "angled" steel sliding door and tracks, and a new door pocket with inner vestibule pocket wall like the 1906 era Deck Roof and later cars had as built. Thus, replacing the original "swinging" end storm doors. The remaining "unmodified" Gibbs cars retained their original manually operated side three doors and 1904-as-built end vestibule features.
The 1902-3 built first IRT subway COMPOSITE wood cars, (and later to become ex subway "EL" cars) just like the earlier built IRT wood El cars, had the wooden end storm doors set back a bit deeper behind the carbody end "angled" walls BUT at a 90 degree square right angle to the carbody side walls...even tho the carbody end walls were both angled. THAT was why THEIR storm doors (like later R types) sat deeper into the end vestibule platform (or carbody interior) area
IRT wooden Elevated Cars (and BMT Wooden EL cars) --- of all gate car types, and (*) IRT MUDC converted EL cars and MUDC converted BMT class C and Q types, had the storm doors parallel to the end carbody walls. The carbody end walls on ALL of those type gate and MUDC (*) cars (and their storm door pockets) were NOT angled as on the steel IRT subway cars...meaning they (and their parallel end storm doors) were at 90 degree square right angles to the carbody side walls.
( * ) ONE EXCEPTION TO ABOVE ---was the (facing front of carbody from outside) IRT MUDC EL cars... the right hand (railfan side) carbody STEEL end wall WAS slightly angled. BUT, the left (motorman's side) carbody end steel wall was flat (90 degrees square right angle to the carbody side walls) - BECAUSE the end wood storm doors, relocated from BEHNIND the end platform (in gate car operation days) up forward to near the anticlimber edge, and now slid on new OUTSIDE tracks TOWARDS, ALONG and PARALLEL to that OUTSIDE LEFT (motorman side) end carbody wall !!! Viewed from INSIDE the carbody end vestibule, the end storm door slid, unlike any other application for storm doors) TO THE RIGHT...and IN FRONT and OUTSIDE OF the new exterior carbody end steel wall "2nd" motorman window. The storm door was, when relocated, as such, installed "backwards"...with its grip-handle now at the LEFT instead of the usual right side, to facilitate this unusual rebuild design !!!
NOTE: The Motorman cab was STILL inside the carbody (gate car position) location BEHIND the end platform and now "enclosed vestibule"...so he looked thru his original glass cab window, and across the 29" wide enclosed vestibule platform floor, and thru the "2nd" exterior end wall larger glass window --- AND /or also thru the storm door window IF storm door was slid open at the head car of train for summer operation "air cooling" --- a common IRT "EL" practice in the 1940's thru 1956 !!!
THE LATER POST WAR R TYPES -- starting with R-10 and onward (including the R-11's) had angled carbody end walls. BUT, the end storm doors (like in the photo of the end anticlimer and door sill plate on the car 1575 R-10 body mockup) had the storms doors (like the 1902-3 Composites !!) set deeper into the carbody interior and sliding at 90 degree square angle to the carbody side walls. That deeper recess allowed room for the storm door to slide into it's interior parallel door pocket wall and next to its angled exterior carbody end wall.
I hope this explains it all clearly enough. I have ridden ALL the above type mentioned cars in service in my lifetime since at least 1949.
Regards - ALL, Joe
Joseph Frank
NYC Transit Modelers Group Forum
NYC Model Transit System (Layout exhibit)
NYC Model Transit Association
R-32.
NO, I didnt FORGET that info at all...it and much more that could have been added to my original posting was just surperfluous and overkill for a simple observation and question by the original poster....as follows:
----The Deck Roof Hi-V hump roller "Door Tracks" on the floor (always a pain in the As--- to open them in the mid 1950's in service, as well as at 3662 at Branford) ----and --
----The Air lock Vac-Piston activated motorized storm door on the BMT steel Standards, etc., ---and ---
----The swinging EL Car storm doors---
ONLY a very few classes of the oldest 1878 thru 1880 IRT EL "trailer" cars had retained their "swinging" original storm doors and lasted only until the early 1940's. Some their same-class-cousins that were converted in 1900-01 and motorized as motor cars, all had new sliding wood storm doors,. tracks, and end pocket interior walls installed when the MM Cab booths were installed and controls wired in) --- There were a number of 1890's built trailers that had sliding storm doors as built new, and ALL of the 1901 thru 1915 built EL trailer cars with 6 paired windows ALL had SLIDING storm doors as built, as did their as built new Motor Car class mates.
Victor - this above is all interesting informative info but has nothing directly to do with the primary observation noted in the original person's thread-posting on the different (and question of why) storm door "angles or not" to anticlimber threshold plate between R-10 and R-1/9 carbody-end design.
Usually when a person asks for the "time", they dont want to first know HOW the clock was made !!
I added more info than required in my original reply - but keeping MAINLY with angled and not angled storm doors issues and related.
The only and quite relevant reason WHY I mentioned the GIBBS storm door, re: its being a "swinging door" had a required historical necessity as follows:
(a) It was much different design than the earlier Composite cars' standard sliding storm doors of 1902-3, earlier than Gibbs 1904-5 construction
(b) It was made hinged and SWINGING on the 1904 built Gibbs car as a new design concept, --- (one used ALSO by the FIRST arch window class NYCRR MU's of 1906-8, and LIRR 1906-8 Gibbs MU cars) --- to cover and enclose fully the motorman controls and switches at the vestibule ends of Gibbs cars being used for loading passengers
(c) It was replaced on Gibbs cars made MUDC by a new steel "angled" sliding storm door w/pocket with new side enrty sliding doors retrofitted.
(d) its "swinging" design was eliminated in the 1906-7 next car orders for 50 Deck Roof steel High-V's --- and the sliding storm door remained a standard after that time.
NOTE TO: RUSH HOUR SARDINE ---THANK YOU for your SOLE and only reply of appreciation of my time and effort spent creating my original post reply on the subject...and indicative of why I rarely share extensive knowledge here.
Regards - Joe
NYCTMG-NYCMTA-NYCMTS
R-32.
If you're talking about between cab ends ( non-vestibule ). However, no, that's not that hard to beat. You yourself mentioned the r-40's. crossing between the slanted ends of those things is like playing Russian roulette.
R-32.
Today we study "Those Fabulous 59'ers."
Well after a rather lengthy hiatus, I'm back. Things got busy and crazy at
the same time. I've changed assignments and am back working a yard job. The
twelve noon pull down job at Markham. It has pretty much been 11 to 12 hour
days, six days per week. And being that it is summer I've been doing some
stuff around the outside of the house. I've also been trying to actually
have some summer fun as well, even attending several baseball games.
I've managed to attend a couple of White Sox games as well as a couple of
minor league games with the Gary South Shore Railcats. No, I do not root
for the Cubs and was pulling against them in last year's playoffs. As
usual, my hunch was right; they'd blow it again and disappoint their fans
again. If I go to a Cubs game this year, it will be with free tickets and I
will root against them. I've been to several Cub games over the years and
cheer on whomever is playing them.
After having painters come in and do the entire interior of the house, we
also had to put it back together as well. And I still haven't finished
getting this office back in order. I decided to redecorate it with somewhat
of a different theme, and still have yet to complete it.
I've also been trying to clear some stuff out on ebay and dealing with that
as well. So I've been "Busy, busy, busy."
"IT just goes to show you, it's always something!"
I want to thank those of you across the HTOTHI Network that inquired about
my well being. Several wrote wanting to know if there were health or other
problems preventing me from writing. The only real problem has been time
and the lack of it. And no, the beautiful bride did not whack me in the
head with her cast iron skillet, although sometimes I wonder why she has
not done so.
I had actually begun writing a column several weeks ago that would return
me to the business of this all. It is about half finished. I decided I
didn't like they way it was heading, so I stopped production of it. One of
these days I'll go back and rework what is already written and then finish
it. In the meantime, I decided to return with some of the unknown yet
humorous side of railroading.
Today's theme is not about some legendary high school football or
basketball team. Nor is it about some Do Whop band from the 50's or early
60's. It is about railroaders that last 59 days or less on the railroad
before washing out.
When hired onto a unionized railroad, the new hire works through a
probationary period before joining the union. This probationary period is
usually sixty or ninety days in length. It varies from railroad to
railroad. On CN, it is sixty days. During their probation, the new hire can
be dismissed immediately for screwing up. They are exempt from the
requirements of the Railway Labor Act that requires due process, in this
case, the "fair and impartial" investigation before they are fired.
Should the new hire miss calls, arrive tardy with any frequency, not show
up after taking a call, do something really bad that causes a derailment
(usually a serious one), cause another employee to be injured or just be a
total screw up, the carrier can dismiss said employee. We refer to this as
being "fifty-nine day'd." Once dismissed in this time period, it is highly
unlikely that one would get reinstated. Although in one case, I knew a guy
that was given a second chance. He managed to bungle that one up too and
was ejected from the ranks like a pilot from a burning airplane.
In my nearly twenty-six years, I've been subjected to many fifty-nine
dayers. One can usually pick them out once they start working after their
training period is complete. Fortunately for me though, while having worked
with my fair share of them I've never actually been a fifty-nine dayer
myself.
So with this background in mind, we are going to discuss some of these
individuals and some the antics they pulled off that earned them a quick
exit from the property. And like my other topics dealing with strange and
bizarre behavior, they shall remain anonymous. Some of you reading this
might know and recall some of these characters though. I say that as one
column awhile back brought forth a name of an individual recounted there
from another railroader that also knew him. I ran into a railroader that I
used to work with and he told of getting a real kick out of that particular
column. He then told me that the one guy I wrote about had to be old so and
so.
Who says everybody you meet in life doesn't leave a lasting impression?
We're going to open with the guy who could not stay awake. I worked with
one character that simply could not keep his eyes open. He always had an
excuse for being so tired, with none of them really being worth the time he
took to explain them. I worked with this guy one Sunday and he kept
constantly dozing off. I was really on him reminding him that they don't
pay us to sleep out here.
His excuse for being so tired this day was the claim that he didn't sleep
over missing a call the evening previous. He stated that he somehow forgot
both his pager and cell phone when he exited his car to go visit his
sister. He told of not realizing he didn't have them with him until he was
leaving her house to come home. He found them in the car where he claimed
he left them and low and behold, there were pages and messages from the
railroad trying to contact him. When he did check in, he said he was told
that he would work in the morning and that he should get some rest.
His claim to me was that he didn't sleep all that night as he was worried
they were going to fire him over missing the call to work. He said he was
so shook up over it that he just couldn't sleep. Maybe he should've take
some sort of sleep aid
"Take Sominex tonight and sleep; safe and restful, sleep, sleep sleep."
Others told me that whenever he worked with them it was the same thing; he
could not stay awake. In one instance, he fell asleep standing up. The
Conductor he was working with this particular evening told of this guy
leaning up against the stand for a switch and he fell sound asleep. They
were calling him on the radio repeatedly and he did not answer. The
Conductor told of going up to him and having to shake him to wake him up.
Hmm, this might have been a great opportunity to test out the theory of
placing somebody's hand into warm water while they are asleep. If you are
unaware of this theory, it is claimed to cause the sleeping person to begin
to urinate when this is done. I can prove it as true as I was a Boy Scout
and we once did this to a guy when we were on a camp out. Oh yes, his
sleeping bag did turn into a waterbed.
How does that Boy Scout oath go again? "On my honor to do my best, to help
Girl Scouts to get undressed." Or something to that affect anyway. And
somehow I never got kicked out of the Scouts either. Go figure.
Needless to say, Sleeping Beauty was heaved out the door short of reaching
his sixtieth day and he never returned. And he actually filed a lawsuit
against the railroad involved for wrongful termination. Heard he never got
a dime from it. Perhaps he could find work as a magician's assistant.
Look into my eyes. You are getting sleepy, very sleepy."
Then there was the character that, when called to work, told the Caller
that he "Can't make it for this train as he is busy, but he would be there
for the next one." Too busy, eh? Well he went the way of the five cent
cigar with that excuse.
There was one guy that never made it past the first day. On his very first
night on the extra board as a Trainman, he got called out to work. As it
would happen, it was both raining and a Friday night. He told the Caller
"Like I don't work on the weekend and I don't work in the rain." He was put
on hold while the Caller contacted the Trainmaster for further
instructions. The Caller was told to go ahead and let this guy mark off and
to inform him to come and see the Trainmaster on Monday morning.
When Monday morning rolled around, this guy does as instructed and stops in
to see the Trainmaster. It was quickly explained to him that if he couldn't
work weekends or in the rain (or both simultaneously), he couldn't work
here. And with that he was dismissed on the spot.
Believe it or not, this is not the record for shortest career. I knew a guy
that got hired on a railroad and while still doing the new hire classroom
portion of the training, was dismissed. It seems that the Safety and
Operating Practices Manager came into the class to discuss safety and other
issues with them all. This guy somehow got into an argument with the Safety
guy. From what I was told, it was quite heated. Immediately after the
arguing ended, this new hire was sent packing. It was only his second or
third day of classroom training too.
"What are you people, on dope?"
And speaking of dope, there was one guy who was washed out because of
drugs. He completed his new hire training and was placed on the Trainman's
extra board. Most railroads will random test new hires several times during
their probationary period to make sure they are clean. Well, this guy
apparently didn't pay attention to the requirements of rule G, the drug and
alcohol rule. He was random tested and came up hot on his very first random
check.
"He gone!"
In the probationary period, there are no exceptions made, not offers to go
to the spin dry and no second chance. You are finished.
On the subject of Rule G, there was one guy that showed up drunker than a
skunk when called out on a holiday during his probationary period. Word had
it that his speech was slurred and he was not walking too very well either.
The rule G testing folks were summoned to the yard. While waiting for them
to arrive, this guy heads out to his car to wait. While waiting, he
apparently fell asleep. Or perhaps it was passed out. In any event, when
the testing guy finally arrived, they almost couldn't wake this guy up for
his test. They finally did arouse him from his slumber and managed to get
him tested on the breathalyzer. He went big as he hit it for a high number.
He too, wound up on the streets.
There was one guy that had apparently landed himself a date with some dolly
and he didn't want to break it. When called to work, he attempted to
explain to the Caller that he really couldn't break this date so he
couldn't come to work. She marked him off and reported this fact to the
Trainmaster. Come the following day when this guy called in to see when he
would work, he was informed that he had been dismissed for failing to
protect his job.
"Now beat it, scram, get outta here!"
Another fellow working in the Maintenance of Way Department at one railroad
decided he wanted to be an Engineer. His mother was a Clerk at this line
and she spoke with the head officer assigned to this terminal about the
potential for his making the switch to the Transportation Department. The
manager invited the son in for an interview. In this interview, he
explained all the requirements of this department.
Now one of the requirements of being a transportation employee is that of
having dependable transportation. This means a car, truck or SUV. It does
not mean the public transportation system of the region. Well, this guy
assured the manager that he would have dependable wheels and would be able
to make it whenever called.
When the time came and there were openings, this guy was allowed to
transfer over from Maintenance of Way to Transportation. Normally under
such circumstances, you must vacate your seniority in the department you
are leaving. You keep your original hire date for maintaining benefits, but
you establish a new seniority date in the new department. This rule applied
to this young fellow as well. This will be important in a few minutes and
you'll see as you read on.
Anyway, this guy did not acquire dependable wheels. In fact, he didn't
acquire any at all. He took the bus to and from work. When working regular
times like 7 in the morning or 6 in the evening, this is not much of a
problem as the buses run pretty regular. Now when called to come out at
say, 3:15 AM, this presents a huge problem as there are not too many buses,
if any at all operating at this time.
Very quickly, this guy was not able to make it to work when called out at
the odd hours like this. And on the railroad and in his particular
situation this occurred quite frequently during his first sixty days. In
one case when told he could not mark off as there were no men, he asked if
the company could send somebody out to pick him and bring him to work. And
then there was also the problem of going home at the odd hours of the
morning as again, there were no buses. On more than one occasion, one of
the guys he was working with, me included, gave him a ride home.
Unfortunately for this guy, he lived in a high crime neighborhood, so
taking him there made for an interesting time, to say the least. On other
occasions, he just had to wait around the yard until the buses began
operating again in the morning.
When called upon the carpet about not being able to take calls account he
had no wheels, he told the manager he could not afford any type of vehicle
and would not have enough money anytime soon. By right, he could have been
dismissed. Fortunately for this kid, the manager was able to work out a
deal that allowed him to transfer back to the MofW Department with his
original seniority date in that department. It was a lucky break for him. I
would bet the fact that his mother worked there and was well regarded as a
very good employee is what really helped his cause too.
There was one girl that was hired at one road. She had a husband in the
rail industry working with another carrier. They had several children,
including a brand new one at home. Now being that our work/rest cycles can
be so sporadic I asked her how she planned to handle coming in at say 0230
when her husband was already at work. She told of having her mother living
right next door and how mom would watch the kids for her. I wondered if mom
was aware of getting woken up in the wee small hours of the morning to baby
sit. I also wondered if mom had a life of her own, including perhaps, a job
of her own.
Needless to say, this poor girl was quickly establishing a reputation for
being late when catching one of these late night side of early morning
assignments. In several cases she was over an hour late. In at least two
cases that I recalled, she called in after she was supposed to be there to
mark off as she could get nobody to watch her kids at that hour. Gee, what
a shock.
She was sent packing after about a month.
And finally, there was the guy who erroneously lined a switch underneath a
car that was rolling over it at the time. This caused the car to derail.
While this was not a terrible catastrophe, it was a problem as they lost
two tracks in the process. The guy sort of came unraveled. Actually he
pretty much unrolled himself completely from the spool. The Trainmaster had
to talk to him for better part of an hour to calm him down. This poor guy
went home and never returned. I guess this little episode was far too
intense for him causing his inner train to go chugging down the track.
"It's too piercing, it's like, wow."
And with that we draw to a close for today's lesson. I'm making no promises
as for getting on track with a regular weekly column. I'll crank these
little lessons out as I have time for the rest of the summer. Gotta enjoy a
little life here while I'm still young and healthy enough to do it. The
beautiful bride has a birthday coming up soon that I must make some kind of
plans for and we're also planning to attend another White Sox game later
this month, so I can guarantee that pumping these out on a regular basis
again will be a little sporadic. So please be patient. Your cooperation is
greatly appreciated.
And so it goes.
Tuch
Hot Times on the High Iron, ©2004 by JD Santucci
When are you ever going to see this again?
W Broadway Local
I'm sure it's happened a few times since 2/22.
Red Arrow Liberty Liner
Budd Car in Reading Terminal
PCC car on Girard Ave
Metroliner
Ironically, I was able to obtain the last copy in stock of the new Route 15 timetable (with the PCC-II on the cover) just this past Thursday 7/22/2004 at SEPTA's headquarters. Yeah, route 15 is still running with buses!
-William A. Padron
["Wash.Hts.-8th Av.Exp."]
The R46 E train
And I guess this would also be rare:
-William A. Padron
["Wash.Hts.-8th Av.Exp."]
It's from a GO that sent the G to Coney Island (yes, I know those happen almost every weekend, but this was from the first one.)
-RJM
G train to Coney Island
The BU Car in Coney Island
-Chris
2nd one is an R-68A N-train on Queens Blvd
(sitting at 71st Street Continental Av)
I wanna post them but I dont kno how
Just use that code, placing the URL (the full monty; don't forget the http:// part) where it says URL and CLOSING the brackets.
I don't think I've ever asked you, but what camera do you use and do you plan to jump on the bandwagon and start your own transit website?
When the L is a shuttle from Broadway Junction to Canarsie, and the shuttle is not a 1 track operation, it uses the middle track at Chauncey street to turn around.
This track map should explain it. The L train comes down the flyover track, stops at the J platform, switches to the middle track, picks up at the J platform, goes up the flyover, and heads to Atlantic avenue.
so does it go out of revenue at the L Atlantic Ave platform, or does it discharge all passengers at the J Eastern Pkwy platform?
W Broadway Local
wayne
W Broadway Local
wayne
W Broadway Line
Astoria
Are you serious? I thought that was an oxymoron.
Gerry
The others might be, but the ones I mentioned above seem to be the largest problems. DeKalb seems to have quite a bit of switching problems, I don't understand why the trains go so slowly btwn Pacific and 36th cuz of those damn timers which are probably a reason why the N is slow in Bklyn. And they can probably use some more trains put on the N and maybe some less holding at 36 St would help which u might have meant my too many D's at 36 St.
Maybe things will improve slightly when service is restored to Coney Island, but I really don't think it ranks "worse" compared to all the other lines.
-Broadway Buffer
The only good solution would be to always send the Broadway trains one way and 6th Av. trains the other way, but that would reduce choices for customers and force transfers via the inconvenient Atlantic/Pacific complex instad of on the same platform at Dekalb. That would create:
N Broadway - 4th Av. Express Astoria to Stillwell via Sea Beach
T Broadway - 4th Av. Express 57th to Stillwell via West End
B Bronx - 8th Av. Local - 6th Av. Express - Brighton Local - BPB to Stillwell
D Bronx - 8th Av. - 6th Av. - Brighton Express 205th to Brighton Beach?
N & T always skip Dekalb
This would simplefy train routings north of Dekalb immensely. but the riders would rebel!
WHERE WERE YOU WHEN WE ONLY HAD THE N and R? LET ME TELL YOU WHERE I WAS! I WAS RIDING THESE VERY CROWDED TRAINS! I WAS WAITIGN UNTIL DOOMS DAY UNTIL THEY CAM! I HAD TO ALTERATE MY ROOT! BECAUSE THE FREAKIN "N" TRAIN WOULDN'T COME! NOW YOU TELLING ME TO GO BACK TO THAT NIGHTMARE EXPRESS! I TELL YOU NO! NO! NO!
THE "W" BROADWAY LOCAL LINE IS VERY MUCH NEEDED! IT FULFILLS A VOID THAT COULD NOT BE SOLVE BY ONE LINE! NOW THAT WE ARE HAPPY! PEOPLE LIKE YOU WANT TO TAKE OUR SERVICE AWAY FROM US!
Welll... hopefully, the MTA won't cut this viable service because people like you say we don't need it.
W Broadway Line
I agree with you! I thought the Straphangers report was very misleading. I, too, have had very little trouble with the "N" line when I rode it and believe it should have gotten a better rating. Plus, I also felt the "W" got an extremely bad rating as well; falling into 3 place.
It's just a shame when these reports are done. I can tell you, that the "D" should have been rated worse, because it does not run as often as it is scheduled, and it is always delayed for some reason. And Traveling times on this line is alway more then what should be required for appropriate transportation.
W Broadway Local
PS: this rating does not improve MTA's perception of the Broadway Line.. It rank the worse of all the truck lines.. and that can affect us immensely if they continue to bash us!!!
I will be tailoring my next post to how each truck line did instead of individual lines. I might need all of your help for this project. This, of course, is base on the Straphangers report.
That only shows the utter idiocy of the Straphanger's rankings. Broadway may be the best Manhattan trunk line in the whole system. I'd certainly rate it ahead of 6th Ave, Lexington Ave. and 7th Ave/Broadway for on time performance and seat availability.
-Broadway Buffer
Anyway, it use to be that I did not want to go to work, because I know a lot of time would be waiting for this train. But now I look forward to it. As a manner of fact, in my free time, I make it a point to ride the line out to places i would not normally go to.
W Bwy Local
W Broadway Local
W Bwy
W Bwy
N - Worse of all subway lines in the report. every 8 minutes/Rush
Q - Average rating of subway lines, but best rating for the Bwy Truck lines 14 of 21. Best overall running times 6:30 minutes Rush
R - Below Average rating of subway lines, but second best rating for the Bwy Truck lines 18 of 21. every 7 minutes/Rush puts it slightly behind the "Q" in running time.
W - I don't agree that this line is the 3rd Worse of the subway lines in the entire system: 18 of 21. operates every 7:15 minutes/Rush falling slightly below the R in running time.
Summary: As you can see, the Straphangers report is solely basing performance on how often a train is schedule, instead of not factoring demand. Obviously, there isn't as much demand for the lines that operate less frequently, otherwise, those lines would be operating more often.
Sixth Avenue Truck Lines
B - Average for a subway line of a 11 of 21 rating. In Comparison it better then the Q Broadway express. UNBELIEVABle! That means, the whole waiting idea only applies to the Broadway Line since the B has a runing time of every 9 minutes during Rush hours! Do you smell some bias here?
D - Better Then Average for a subway line of a 3 of 21 rating. It operates every 6 minutes rush. I don't see this at all. I see a "B" and then a "D" and so on. I never ever seen 2 "D's" followed by one "B" I never seen it, but maybe I'm wrong. Also, the times I rode it, i wasn't too pleased. The service is very infrequent. 2/3 "A's" would pull in and only one "D" And straphangers give this line almost the entire rating in the system. BULL!
F - Average for a subway line of a 12 of 21 rating. It, too, have a better rating then the notorious "Q" Broadway Express. I like the "F" line alot, but I don't think it deserves a better ranking then my mother (as I refer to some lines - the N being my father and the R being my sister) It runs every 4 minutes, which clearly shows the favoritism towards 6th Avenue Truck lines.
V - Average for a subway line of a 10 of 21 rating. It, too, have a better rating then the notorious "Q" Broadway Express. It operates every 6 minutes. Although this is not what I see as the F/V runs back to back a ratio of 2:1 compare to the B/D. Also, it runs a minute faster then the competing "R" Broadway Local.
Summary: Judging by what I read, I'm not satified with how the Broadway Truck Line is Rated or Treated.
Look here (by minutes of services) B: 9 minutes D: 6 minutes F: 4 minutes V: 6 minutes N: 8 minutes Q: 6:30 minutes R: 7 minutes W: 7:15 minutes
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
You have a better chance getting a Sixth Avenue train then a Broadway train. And Judging by what I read, the rating system is base solely on how long you wait for a train.
W Broadway Local
:-) Broadway Buffer
Oh and on another note of your post bout the J.Simple question,is 10mins not sufficient?10mins is reasonably good.It's neither too long nor too short.It's just...right.
Da Hui
Da Hui
Perhaps it's the quality of some of its riders? You've certainly done nothing to alter that opinion.
Anyway, just one funny thing, there is a cop booth on the platform in there (at least there was then) and the T/O told me that he often seens them watching movies (obviously a boring post) and once he saw them bring in a playstation.....
If you want to see it, I say just ask them, what's the worst that they can say? I wouldn't just stay on though...
Anyway, one of my friends and I stayed several cars behind the C/R's car and continued on to the Loop. I almost missed it though, the station was very dark. I still saw it and took 2 pictures, one with a very nice reflection of me and the second one actually taking a photo that barely shows City Hall. It's at my website.
If you do get caught, you can say it was a (honest) mistake. It's the first time riding the 6 train this far down. All the other trains I take, the new crews switch the car direction and return from a terminal. Or be creative.
There's no reason for that. It's not illegal. You can tell them that you stayed on to see the original City Hall station. They can yell at you all they want (and then you can file a complaint against them), but that's all they can do.
Photography is (still) legal but that doesn't prevent people from getting summonses or at least severe harrassment.
The summonses get dropped and harassment should be followed up with a complaint or more serious action. But those reasons should not force you to lie about something legal.
It might help to have a Walkman-style cassette/CD player with you. If you're asked why you didn't hear the "everyone off" announcement, you can claim that you couldn't hear anything over the loud music. It may not always work, but it's worth a try.
Didn't you see what I wrote about photography? Just because riding through the loop is technically legal doesn't mean you won't be in for a very long day if the police see you.
What if you ride through the loop, and a cop sees you as the train approaches the uptown platform? Remember the photography analogy - just because something is legal doesn't mean you won't be harrassed and possibly given a summons.
No doubt. Point is, you'd be much better off not getting one in the first place, for example by claiming that you couldn't hear the "all off" announcement over your Walkman.
Excuses like that don't stop overzealous cops from giving out summonses.
-Broadway Buffer
I still don't recomend it, but those are just some idea for you to get off.
-Broadway Buffer
Doing that would be risky both from a safety and a legal standpoint.
I disagree with that notion. The "W" has been there and there is no reason to snub it in the report. As a local line, it operates every 7.15 minutes. That is nearly a minute faster then the "N" line.
How is it that the "N" "express" is given a schedule of every 8 minutes, while the "W" line is given 7.15 minutes. This does not make any sense to me! I just think it is crazy! especially since the N use to run every 6.75 minutes before the Q/W came online.
Well, lets hope with the next report that the "W" line improves.
W Broadway Local
out!
PS: R runs every 7 minutes... and was rated 18 out of 21.. giving it a better rating then the "W" line
Q runs every 6.30 minutes... and was rated 14 out of 21.. giving it a substantially better rating then all the Broadway lines combined.
Now I was in the city today and I realized what was the IND and the IRT thinking when they built 34th Street.. Why is the express tracks have its own platform while the locals are on the side. This is horrible because when I wanna take the trains up one stop to 42nd Street I have to take my chance and if I see one across the pilling then I go run to the other platform...Isnt it more logical to have the same direction local and express on the same plat form....
Dylan
LIRRm-7
YEAH A/C TRACTION MOTORS
It's meant to discourage express<->local transfers at the busy 34th Street stations.
http://www.nycsubway.org/ind/8thave/ind-8th-34.html
http://www.nycsubway.org/irt/westside/irt-westside-34.html
-Chris
All the trains run often enough so that no matter which platform you pick, you won't have to wait long.
If the first local is an E, take it to 42nd Street. If the next train is a C, take it. If it's an A, take it to Columbus Circle for the B or C. It's that simple.
Bob
There are very few passengers on it for this long leg. On the southbound run, it often causes delays at 36th St, as it will often come into the station at about the same time as the W, and one of them must wait while the other crosses onto the West End. These small delays effect the N, W, and R.
If the M never ran into downtown Brooklyn/4th Avenue / West End again, I think very few passengers would suffer...there ain't too many people traveling from Bensonhurst to Bushwick or Middle Village... and it could free up space for some additional W or R trains...which would alleviate rush hour overcrowding on those lines.
Why in the world does this line exist? It's good that the tracks are there, as this route was mighty handy for NYC in Fall 2001...but as a regular run, this train appears to serve no public service at all.
Although I hate it cause it delays my R train, it does seem to be needed. If not that then the W has to be brought back as a Bklyn Local, cause u really need more than just the R as I believe W Broadway Local pointed out in a different post referring to Broadway in Manhattan.
-Broadway Buffer
i by far think it should run to Brighton Beach
Also my general opinion is that the M should not even cross into the tunnel at all and the W should run w/the R to Brooklyn {4th Av} in place of the M.
It will save a lot of money and keep the line from disappearing totally.
W Broadway Local
I say! keep the "M"! reduce the number of cars from 8 to 6/5 and run it as a one operator who operates the train and closes the doors.
This is the best thing I can think of right now.
W Broadway Local
Leave the "W" line alone, because like the "M" it is a substitute to the delayed "R". If the "R" is delayed, either the "M" is going to be delayed or the "W". This current plan prevents them both being delayed at the same time.
I don't particularly like the IDEA of the M train running down to "Bay Ridge" myself...
It was better[and worked better]on the Brighton line.....where it belongs....
This line ( again, only speaking of the extension from downtown Brooklyn - Bay Parkway ) may have served a purpose in the 1940s and 50s when more people worked/lived in lower Manhattan / lower East Side but it now appears to serve no purpose at all.
It would be better to eliminate this segment and replace it with nothing than keep it as it now runs, because this would allow the N/R/D to run better.
If it were eliminated and replaced with one more W and R per hour, that would be a big improvement over what now exists.
Don't believe me, the empty seats at all hours on this ghost line speak for themselves.
Umm, the M doesn't run to 4th Avenue "at all hours". Rush hours only, isn't it, terminating at either Chambers or Myrtle/Broadway at other times?
And I will --often -- see almost all the passengers get off a southbound M at 36th Street in the evening, while they wait for the R or the N. These passengers would be much better served by more R or N service.
the W can operate to Brooklyn with BOTH lines with out problems....
I suspect that he feels the M delays his journey somewhat,and with it's elimination,his trip would be quicker.
Not true...The MTA did not incress service to the R in dramatic numbers like riders expected..but the absence of the N train is noticable...
In any case...M trains should be returned to Brighton service,and W trains moved back to the West End...of course that can't happen untill they get MORE trains to cover the extended lines....
Rush hour R service was increased. Midday service is the same. It's adequate to meet demand. People need to understand that the N running thru the tunnel was a necessity, not something desired.
if the M wasn't around, would you take the D or possibly the W (if it replaced the M)?
would you be inconvenienced at all by this?
All three sections are needed, the first to provide frequent West End Service, the second to provide very frequent 4th Avenue Service, the 3rd to provide a needed rush hour service to Nassau St. (Church St. is not that close when you are in a hurry.) Remove the M and you would still need all three sections (or at least the 1st and 3rd for sure).
I can see your point as respects the 3rd group, but I just don't agree. There clearly are some people who use the M to get from south Brooklyn to Broad St / Fulton St / Chambers St / Canal Street, ( and maybe one or two people have taken it to Bowery or points north over the years ) but I do not think that there are enough of them to justify having this line run as far as it does.
Running more D trains would cause additional delays at Stillwell, Gold, 59th, and 145th.
Running more R trains would cause additional delays at 95th, Queens Plaza, and Continental.
Running extra trains in the Bronx and Queens to accomodate demand in Brooklyn is exceptionally wasteful.
Few R passengers who remain on the train north of DeKalb are bound for Midtown. For many lower Manhattan passengers -- particularly those originating on the West End line -- the Nassau line is more useful than the Broadway (Church/Trinity) line. So why not give them the M?
Da Hui
But that is not it's real route. It just runs there in order to get to the Coney Island Yard. The D has permanently replaced it. You have to see that there is no point in running the W to Coney Island Yard without passengers, so they just let it run local with passengers since it's going there anyway. The W DOES NOT got to Bklyn normally.
D.W.E.L. well
Because it's so easy to change for a faster train at several places on the Southern Division, there is very little through carriage of pax between these last 3 groups, and the M is consequently much less crowded at any given point along the route than, say, the F, since the F has no connections in Brooklyn to a faster train. That doesn't mean that the M is not useful as a rush-hour supplement to the D, for group 2, and the R, for group 3; and it is the only train that provides the service that group 4 needs, which is why it's better than extending the W. All these different constituencies served by extending a single line that otherwise would have to run right back over the Willy B actually seems like an elegant solution to me, even if an oncoming express has to slow down for a bit so the M can negotiate the switch at 36th St.... I am unaware of the volume on 4th Ave ever being so high that M operations hinder other trains for more than a minute or so, regardless of how irritating pax on the other trains find that minute. That's the sacrifice y'all make for my getting on that M instead of waiting eight minutes for the next R.
'D - West End Local' should step aside & make room for another train on the West End (the M doesn't count in my opinion). Does anyone think that there should be a peak-direction West End Express? And I think the rush hour only thing should still be in effect even if it's the W on 4th instead of the M.
-Broadway Buffer
-Broadway Buffer
-Broadway Buffer
-Broadway Buffer
But it seems like someone really messed up with the signs at Bay Parkway/86th Street station, look now; a West End express train?
I thought that trains terminated in the middle track in the first place, or do they relay to about 25 Av then go back on the n/b local track.
Does anyone know what the TPH is in the Flatbush tunnel, and how many TPH the M would add?
I grew up using the Brighton Line, and I remember the QB and M service. They probably had a combined service less frequent than that of today's Q service.
What I want to know is what the current peak TPH is in the Flatbush tunnel, and how much TPH would be added by the M train.
So where should the M be sent in that case? Should it just be ended at Chambers all the time and be replaced with the W or a new T like someone suggested? Or should it be sent to 95 St, or go to Kings Hwy on the Sea Beach, or what?
-Broadway Buffer
Coney Island can be used to turn two services...
rush hour Q's run every 6 mins...the M runs 7-9 trains per hour....
where's the problem?
You know, maybe a 'summer only' M should run to Brighton Beach or Stillwell to give more service to Coney Island during the summer when it gets the most amount of people. Just an idea. Personally I would like to see it go on the Brighton year round.
-Broadway Buffer
David
-Broadway Buffer
Does more service need to be provided? As has been mentioned on this board many times, Coney Island is not the destination it was pre-TV/video games and pre-home air conditioning. However, if it is established that more service needs to be provided to Coney Island, it then must be determined where that service needs to come from -- are the people coming from the M corridor (Nassau Street/Broadway Brooklyn/Myrtle Avenue), or the D/F/Q (and, resuming next year, N) corridors, which already serve the station?
David
2. The M provides access to a section of Lower Manhattan the R doesn't. With the WTC gone, this diversity of service is needed.
3. Few people want to go from Bensonhurst to Bushwick. That's not why the M runs to Bay Parkway. It's to get passangers from southern Brooklyn to the eastern edge of the financial district and the City Hall area.
4. Look at the southbound platforms at Chambers, Fulton or Broad Sts any afternoon at 5:10 PM. It's pretty darn crowded.
The only problem with the service is that it almost always fouls up D service, given that it's now unbalanced (D runs more rush hour service than the M), especially southbund service at Bay Parkway, as M trains need to be fumigated here. Maybe the M would work better running to Kings Highway via Sea Beach when service to CI is restored.
Good point. Not nearly as many who use the M to get to lower Manhattan, but still enough to make the service worthwhile, both ways. That explains why I always see a lot of riders getting on a Queens-bound M at Court/Lawrence in the afternoon.
Are the Ms packed when running on the West End?
-Broadway Buffer
But wouldn't the same thing happen at Kings Highway? Or does the N run less frequently than D, that fumigating M's at Kings Highway would be less of a problem?
All this redesigning, new interlocking machines, modernizing the signal system and the simplest solution would be a setup that at Kings Hwy F. Do it while they're doing one of their whacky 1 way GOs. Move the switches on the S/B to north of the station, add a punch at 20th Ave and terminate the M in the middle. N/B they could leave it the same and have the crew relay the train south of Bay Pkwy and come back on the outside or add a single crossover noth of the station and it goes northbound from Tk. 4.
Doubt that will ever happen, though.
I actually know the answer to this question.
If you remember, the M used to run along the Brighton linw in the early 1980's. When Howard Benn became head of Operations Planning for the TA in the mid 1980's he wanted to provide a direct subway connection between the Lower East Side and Borough Park because he believed that more people wanted to travel between the Lower East Side and Borough Park than between the Lower East Side and Flatbush, Midwood, or Sheepshead Bay.
As far as I know there wasn't any market research done to support this. But he made a case and no one at the MTA opposed it. So it went through. I don't remember much discussion or publicity before the change was made. One day it just happened and there has never been any outcry to change it, so it remains till this day.
What bothers me is that there was no cost / benefit analysis showing a true demand for direct service, and judging from the M's light usage, I think history has proved that a direct connection was not warranted.
David
The M had to be bumped off the Brighton to allow for skip-stop service with the D and Q.
I highly doubt that Brighton local passengers actually liked having the M as their primary service. Who would oppose the change?
I don't know what you mean by primary service. I don't believe the M ever was a primary service for the Brighton line. When it operated on the Brighton line as a weekday local, the QB also ran as a Broadway local during rush hours. Other times, the D ran as the express (weekdays), and local when the M didn't operate.
Before that the M ran only during rush hours as a local and the Q as the express and the QT as the local with the QB as the weekend and night local. I can't think of a time the M was ever considered a primary service on the Brighton Line (other than during weekday middays). I'm sure the change to 4th Avenue was initiated by the TA.
Rush hour peak-direction commuters had direct access to Midtown -- if they didn't mind waiting for the undependable QB. All other Brighton local passengers had to transfer at the next express stop to reach Midtown on weekdays.
This was all because of history. When Chrystie came along in 1967, the Brighton local was initially to be served only by Nassau service; the QB was instituted only in response to the inevitable outcry.
By the early 80's, the subway system was a hodgepodge. IIRC (I don't have my map collection on me), N trains in Manhattan ran local southbound but express northbound in the AM rush, and the reverse in the PM rush (to fill in for the lost EE). Off-peak B trains didn't serve CPW, but rush hour B trains had two north terminals nowhere near each other (57/6 and 168/Broadway), with (IIRC) northbound B trains to 57 (but not to 168) running local in the AM rush only (to fill in for the lost K). Depending on the time of day, CPW local stations were served by the B and CC, the AA only, or the A only. All of this was history piled on top of history.
It wasn't until the mid-80's that the TA began to think about what routes would make sense. Did it make sense for Brighton local passengers to have no access to Midtown? No, so the M was moved. Did it make sense for the B to have two north terminals at the same time? No, so the new weekday Brighton service was sent to 57/6 whenever it ran (this occurred conveniently right about the time that the south side of the bridge was closed) and the B sent to 168 whenever the Q ran. Did it make sense for some N's to run local and others express? No, so (fast-forwarding to today, since express N service wasn't a practical option in the interim) the N runs express on weekdays and a new route, the W, joins the R on the march to Whitehall. Did it make sense for there to be a route called the CC that only ran rush hours and another route called the AA that only ran off-peak? No, so they were combined into a single route, the C (at which point the Fulton Street line finally got off-peak express service).
I don't know if Brighton passengers made any specific requests regarding the M. After all, few of the routings made sense, and there were bigger fish to fry, like whether the train would make it to the next station. But when the TA finally took a look at the system of routes, the Brighton M was one obvious bit that had to go.
Oh, and two of the fluorescents in the same car were burnt out. Talk about a return to the bad old days...
-Chris
Wallpapers now up
Ha ha, cool one!
Arthur Thomas
I can tell you that if anyone produces anything for these systems, it will most likely NOT be broken down by weekday/Saturday/Sunday, but will simply have average numbers for a period of time.
I just recently found this web page about weekday in the San Francisco Area through the Google search engine. Included in this webpage is weekday ridership at every BART station from April 2001.
Arthur Thomas
Some bent-card users probably figure that their chances of getting caught are so low that they'll come out ahead financially even if they have to pay the occasional fine. One might call this a very basic form of cost-benefit analysis.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
-Broadway Buffer
I am not making this up. They play hardball if they catch you.
-Broadway Buffer
LOL!!!
-Broadway Buffer
Arthur Thomas
David
Arthur Thomas
Arthur Thomas
Type in "dvarp". When I did it the first answer was Delaware Valley Association of Rail Passengers.
-Chris
Not to meantion the lower right on the sign says Staten Island Rail Road?
It's actually S I Rapid Transit, as for the sign I can't make out what's next to MTA in the corner.
Not anymore. It was changed to SI Railway in 1993.
1) South Ferry
or
2) T SQ -G C shuttle
just a guess????
Associated Press Thursday, Jul. 22, 2004 - 2:51 PM
By MATTHEW BARAKAT
Associated Press Writer
McLEAN, Va. - The Federal Transit Administration awarded $59 million to begin engineering work on an extension of the Washington, D.C., Metrorail system that advocates hope will eventually stretch 23 miles to Loudoun County and Dulles International Airport.
Full story at http://wtop.com/?sid=232892&nid=25
Here is an image from the page above;
Looks like the station at Leesburg Pike and Tyco.Road (Tyson West).
John
Pardon the glare.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
-Chris
Wallpapers now up
-Chris
The FBI is quite stymied by these late developments and are thinking of shutting the whole SIRT down, at least during the RNC, which will take place less than 20 miles from the SIRT's northern terminus, because of the impossibility of providing adequate security.
:)
followed by this:
which was followed by this:
I've noticed a long gap in the curtain wall about a train length south of the station...
If you define Wall Street as meaning the financial district in lower Manhattan, it is served by the R.
I know lower Manhattan like the back of my hand. The M conveniently serves portions of it the R/W doesn't.
As you'd know if you knew this area, " Wall Street " is shorthand for the financial district, which the Rector Street R/W station is in the middle of. ( A block from Wall St., two blocks from NYSE building ) It is as close to the NYSE as some of the 2/3 line " Wall Street Station" entrances. Please check, today, in the rain. Am sure you have nothing better to do.
Noone said that " the R train stops on Wall St ". Said that if the route of the R changed so that it went over the Manhattan Bridge from Pacific Street ( Brooklyn ) to Canal St ( which is in Manhattan ) it would go past Wall St, leaving the Wall Street area without one of its major transit lines. Many, many commuters from Brooklyn, Queens and Staten Island ( no,no, don't think that the R train goes to Staten Island. It doesn't, But it does stop at South Ferry, and really big boats from Staten Island dock there, all the time! ) use the Rector St / Trinity Place station to get to their jobs in and near Wall St.
For further information on Wall St or the financial district please contact the Downtown Information Center at 212-425-INFO. Am sure you'll appreciate learning about this fascinating neighborhood.
the lines that serve wall street are 2/3, 4/5 (somewhat questionable)and JMZ
Before 2/22, the N ran through Montague but switched to the express at Pacific.
The N last ran local on upper 4th Avenue during the daytime in 2001, weekends only. It's been a weekday 4th Avenue express since 1994.
There may have been switches here at one time, but they were removed when the station was extended south. There used to be a crossover between the bypass and tunnel tracks at the northern end of Dekalb, but it was removed for that very same purpose. That's why there was no curtain wall here (until recently, when one was installed).
David
Train leaves 207th Street Yard no later than 9:15 a.m. for the 72nd Street spur. At approximately 10:30 a.m. the excursion train will proceed to 59th Street/Columbus Circle, Track A-3, and take on passengers.
At 10:40 a.m. the excursion train will leave 59th Street/Columbus Circle and operate via the 6th Avenue “D” and “F” lines to Broadway-Lafayette, where it will cross to and operate via Track BJ-1 to Essex Street.
The excursion train will then operate via the “J” line from Essex Street to Marcy Avenue, where it will cross to and operate via the express track (J-3/4) to Broadway Junction.
From Broadway Junction the excursion train will proceed via the “J” line to 111th Street Station. The excursion train will relay north of 111th Street Station to return southbound.
The excursion train will make up to four round trips between 111th Street and Marcy Avenue, using the express track between Broadway Junction and Marcy Avenue.
Upon completion of last trip, the excursion train will return to 59th Street/Columbus Circle and end. Train lays-up at 207th Street Yard.
(Sorry, Newkirk Plaza Dave, no lunch stops are indicated. However, instructions to the Station Department are to allow guests through the fare control areas at “59th Street/Columbus Circle, Essex Street, and Alabama Avenue for lunch and rest stops.”)
Sunday, July 25
Train leaves 207th Street Yard no later than 9:15 a.m. for the 72nd Street spur. At approximately 10:30 a.m. the excursion train will proceed to 59th Street/Columbus Circle, Track A-3, and take on passengers.
At 10:40 a.m. the excursion train will leave 59th Street/Columbus Circle and operate via the 6th Avenue “D” line over the Manhattan Bridge, then via the “Q” Brighton line via the express track from Prospect Park to Ocean Parkway Station.
From Ocean Parkway Station the excursion train will proceed to Stillwell Avenue and lunch. Train lays-up in Coney Island Yard..
After lunch, the excursion train will leave Stillwell Avenue and operate via the “F” line to Kings Highway. The excursion train will make up to three round trips, operating via Track B-3/4 from Kings Highway to north of 18th Avenue.
From Kings Highway the excursion train will operate through Coney Island Yard loop, the proceed via the “N” Sea Beach line and the “D” line to 59th Street/Columbus Circle, and end.
Train lays-up to 207th Street Yard.
-Chris
-Chris
I am not a big fan of McDonalds, but the "new" McDonalds at the Gates Avenue station on the J has GOT to be the BEST McDonalds I have ever had. I had it the other day when I was under the Broadway El in my car around lunchtime. It's right next to the abandoned exit of the Gates Ave station, at Howard St and Broadway...right next to the old RKO Bushwick Theater.
Damn was that good!
I'm gonna have lunch at home on Saturday if there's no official lunch stop!
til next time
It sounds a bit monotonous back and forth on the Brdway-Jamca Els , but the Brdway Express El is not to be missed with the gate cars ! I never even rode that with regular trains !
Hmmmm , and they will let us in and out at Essex ? Maybe lunch at Katz's is in order .
Sundays' trip sound just as monotonous back and forth on the Culver El .
I wonder how they'll work us in thru Eastern Parkway, considering the fact that all 3 tracks will be in use because of the Canarsie line GO.
See you tomorrow
Chuck Greene
It's a bit of a bear to program without the software (I might break down and buy it eventually), and some of the options aren't quite intuitive, but all in all I'm very happy with it. It's a great little rig - things like this weren't available at any price back when I got my license 10 years ago.
For the uninformed:
it fits in the palm of your hand...
N2JBP
73 (I think that term comes from the old railroad telegraph days, to put this back on topic...)
Jeremy N2ZLQ
6m is useless for DX bxcept when low sunspot levels push the MUF above the 6m band. the Zerocuse Boyz use military surplus RT-524's (10 watts FM) into 1/4 wave whips for mobile and Ringo Rangers for base installations. We do not have repeaters for 6 around here which suits us just fine. in a rag chew, repeaters are a worse than uesless PITA because the trustees only want you to talk about ARRL approved matters, acting like a bunch of message board moderators. (funny thing, most of our QSO's are about trains on a highly technical level because we are active mechanical volunteers with Adirondack Scenic RR).
73 from N2MMM.
BTW "73" did come from Railroad telegraphers.
My timetables claims there are NO through Waterbury to GCT trains. All trips require a change.
There are of course Danbury trains during the rush hour.
CG
URL: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/23/nyregion/23transit.html
Remainder of station building still standing:
And semi-off topic, but here is the great condition that the RKO Bushwick at the J's Gates AVe station and it's surrounding neighborhood have become, now that the Bushwick is now a school.
And the McDonalds (behind where I am standing) has GOT to be the most deliscious McDonalds I have ever been at - and I'm not really a big fan of McDonalds.
Wow, SUV's, clean streets, people walking around in suits....what a difference a few years makes. A decade ago, this looked like a war zone. I think Chris R27-R30 is right....watch for a Starbucks to open on Broadway in a few years......
Sounds like a very nice change in the area's fortunes.
Okay, maybe not the suits part.
It's good and bad. This area is home to a lot of low income people, and if gentrifaction continues unabated, these people won't be able to afford living there. Park Slope is a perfect example.
If we begin to gentrify many of these low income communities which forces out the residents, where will the previous residents go? Housing prices in Queens and Long Island and a lack of legal rentable dwellings preclude many of them affording residences there.
Who said that that "richer" people moving in were not going to be "minority", whatever that means.
Poor people come in all colors, and so do richer people.
What in the heck are you talking about?
DON'T YOU want to see Bushwick improve? I know that "hood" like the back of my hand,and if someone's gonna get in there and make it better...then by all means ...DO IT!!
"Quite..non existent" my eye....
you empower your selves by making your hood look better...
And to bring this back on topic.....more housing and better housing brings more people, and more people brings more demand and outcry for better public transportation, and that in turn will get the politicians to pay attention to these people, as they want to stay in office....and that in terms gets people to FIGHT for better subway service, etc.
And Bushwick and Bedford-Stuyvesant needs someone fighting for it - and that is a good thing.
Also study the lyrics of "Open Letter To A Landlord", by Living Color, Bushwick natives (at least their CD, "Vivid", gave a Bushwick address to write to : "If you give a damn, write ...")
Anyway, does anyone know the route the Buskwick Expressway was supposed to take had it been built?
Click Here!
in any case my grandfathers house would have gone the way of the 3rd ave El...along with most if not all of the others ....
The J/M/Z lines are among the most under-used in the system, so there is plenty of room to grow capacity. But they don't go to Midtown, so growth means more people pushing onto the F at Delancy and Essex.
Many people would like F express service, but that means a big cut in service at local stops unless the V is extended also. No need for that based on south Brooklyn ridership, but it may become necessary to service all of those getting off the J/M/Z.
By the way, a Bushwick renaisance has already been underway for some time, thanks to subsizied rowhouses financed in part by the city. But I get the feeling that the occupants of those rowhouses tended not to be subway users, because they tended not to be Manhattan-oriented, whereas the new residents are. Does that make sense?
Many people would like F express service, but that means a big cut in service at local stops unless the V is extended also. No need for that based on south Brooklyn ridership, but it may become necessary to service all of those getting off the J/M/Z.
If increased ridership justifies it, then maybe, there'll be a one-seat-ride down 6th Ave (the K train) or the SAS via Chrystie Street. Maybe even get the MTA to take another look at the plans for the South 4th Street Subway and it's branches.
Well let's not get carried away now. I'd be happy if they just extended the V to the M or J line using existing tracks.
They are lucky if they even get the 2nd Ave subway in Manhattan built, forget about any kind of new subway anywhere else, no matter how good or busy the neighborhood becomes.
It would be great if they would build what was supposed to be built under the IND second system plan, but at this point it's just fantasy.
However, re-evaluation of the Broadway El service is necessary at this point and in the coming years.
In all reality though, there is absolutely no reason why they can't use the midtown service for the Broadway El. They should make that the permanent service on the line, and have the Nassau line be the weekday only service, and religate the rest to shuttle nights and weekends, a shuttle between Essex and Broad at those times.
More people want the midtown access than the downtown Nassau access.
for real though...It would be enough just to see them finish the SAS....
Or start it.
If your attention was to annoy me, you've succeeded. I rarely admit that, so treasure this post as rare.
Actually, for those that missed the thread last week, here's a video that is filmed along the Broadway El between Myrtle Ave and Marcy Ave. One shot is he singer running under the El near the Marcy Ave station, another shot of the two of them in bed together along the el with R42's going by their windows of an apartment, and finally another scene taken on the supermarket roof right next to the Broadway el near the Lorimer St station with J's and M's going by behind them:
http://www.Avril-Lavigne.com/video.html
Click the video "My Happy Ending".
Other middle/working class neighborhoods which haven't been "discovered" yet. Look out Bensonhurst, Sunnyside, Howard Beach ...
I used to ride the J from Sutphin to Broad Street on a daily basis and used to see the Bushwick when it was still a ruin. Nice to see the City put the building to good use.
Two comments too about the Broadway El. It is VERY light under the el, and that is with three tracks (see second photo). I couldn't understand why it shed so much light through the "lattice". The Jamaica El is much darker, and it has only two tracks!
It's actually a very cheerful el to drive under.
And the Loew's Gates a couple blocks away is also in great shape as it's new home as a church. I couldn't believe how nice everythign has become. There are dumpsters everywhere cleaning up and restoring the great old homes in the are!
Gotta disagree there. Jamaica Ave. is brighter, but Broadway is not as dark and desolate as Liberty Ave. is under the A line.
One problem I see with that: Since the L platform is under the center of the street, the elevator would have to rise in the middle of the street. Probably there will be two elevators: L platform to Mezzanine, L Mezzanine to street and M mezzanine, then ramp.
But it's still conjecture. We just have to wait and see.
With the way they are expanding to be on every corner(how pretentious) a few years sounds like a long time.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION, FEDERAL RAILROAD ADMINISTRATION; GRADE CROSSING SAFETY ISSUE: BRIEF RESPONSE TO THE NEW YORK TIMES ALLEGATIONS
During the past 10 years, the Federal Railroad Administration has made highway-rail grade crossing safety a top priority. In fact, it can be considered one of the great success stories in American transportation.
To read the recent story in The New York Times, one would think just the opposite of the FRA. It was disappointing to learn that after an extensive investigation, the reporter came to the conclusion that the FRA is indifferent to highway-rail crossing accidents. Anyone interested in an unbiased review of the same FRA records and its professionals would have understood the tremendous efforts put into the successful prevention of vehicle-train collisions.
Despite significant increase in both motor vehicle and train traffic, since 1993 the number of vehicle-train collisions has been dramatically reduced by 41 percent and the number of crossing fatalities has been cut by nearly 50 percent to an all-time low of 324. To a great extent, this is due to the nationwide efforts of the professionals of the FRA, working with the Federal Highway Administration, the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration, and the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, States, local communities, railroads, labor organizations, and Operation Lifesaver Inc.
There is no other program of the Federal Railroad Administration to which as much time, enthusiasm and energy is devoted, and clear results produced, as in the grade-crossing program. The reporter from the Times criticized the FRA for things beyond our jurisdiction and ignored information that shows the positive actions taken by FRA to address a number of issues raised in the article.
After seven months of extensive research to find a negative story, the reporter found that in the year since FRA began requiring railroads to make immediate telephonic reports of every highway-rail grade crossing fatality, there were instances where they had not done so. The FRA has long required that railroads file monthly reports, and the article did establish that with few notable exceptions, the railroads do file these reports. Since 1999 all such records have been readily retrievable from the Safety Data page of the FRA web site. FRA is implementing a new system to cross check the filing of the telephonic and written reports, and the Times article was helpful in devoting the resources to highlight this issue.
It is important to point out that although we use data to analyze the causes of grade crossing accidents, the analysis over years of accidents clearly establishes there is very little variation in causal factors.
Approximately 94% of all grade crossing accidents, and 87% of fatalities, involve motor vehicle driver behavior as a principal factor. Police reports are filled with statements from witnesses attesting to such driver actions as going around lowered crossing gates, ignoring flashing warning lights, driving into the side of a train, or racing the train to the crossing. Thus, FRA has found it far more beneficial to concentrate on preventing grade crossing collisions and the fatalities in the first place, a system, which the record shows, has been highly successful.
The FRA has grade crossing staff across the country who devote their efforts to getting media, business, law enforcement agencies, community civic associations, schools, and anyone else who will listen to join with efforts to make the public aware of the dangers of grade crossings and trespassing on rail property.
Just this past June, the US Department of Transportation Inspector General issued a report praising the FRA saying we have " made substantial progress in improving grade crossing safety " since 1994. Among the findings was that the fatal highway-rail crossing accident rate fell by 57 percent.
Here is how it works:
The railroad owns the track. The roadway at a crossing is owned by either a public or private entity. Public crossings are those where the highway or roadway is under the jurisdiction of and maintained by a public authority such as a municipality, county, or State agency. Private crossings are those where the roadway is privately owned, as a farm or within an industrial complex. The roadway owner, public or private, typically maintains the road approaching the crossing on either side of tracks.
The Federal Highway Administration (FHWA) is responsible for public grade crossing issues that affect highway safety. FHWA provides guidelines and standards for the correct design of grade crossings, the assessment of safety at a grade crossing, and appropriate placement of traffic control devices at and on the approach to a grade crossing as described in the FHWAs Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices (MUTCD). State and local officials and others serve on an advisory committee that drafts many of the standards.
States determine which public crossings are in need of improvements and what those improvements will be. States rely heavily on federally supplied funds called Section 130 funds, authorized by Congress (ISTEA/TEA-21) which allocate money to the States specifically for eliminating hazards at public highway-railroad grade crossings (Federal highway funds cannot be spent on safety improvements at private rail crossings). The FHWA also administers the distribution of Section 130 funds.
States determine what warning devices are needed in which locations, and contract with the railroads for installation. FRA regulations require railroads to maintain the signals in working order and that the railroad take alternative measures when signals are not properly working, with substantial penalties for not doing so. To ensure that the nation ' s
60,000 crossings with active warning devices are functioning as intended, we require the railroads to conduct monthly inspections. We verify compliance by performing our own inspection on a sample basis.
FRA and the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) require railroads to telephonically report fatal crossing accidents to the National Response Center. Prior to 2003, the FRA and the NTSB had different rules regarding telephonic reporting. FRA required five or more fatalities before a report had to be made while the NTSB threshold was a single fatality. Since the vast majority of fatal vehicle-train collisions involve only one or two fatalities, a failure by a railroad to make a telephonic report in those cases did not violate FRA rules. The FRA recognized this reporting gap and in 1997, the NTSB reporting requirements were included in the FRA Guide to Accident Reporting as an information item to encourage greater compliance. In 2001, the FRA initiated the rulemaking process to change our own regulations to mandate telephonic reporting in cases of a single fatality. The new FRA reporting requirements took effect in May 2003.
It is important to recognize that these instances are treated as highway accidents by the FRA and NTSB. The reporter mistakenly believes that the purpose of this federal regulatory agency is to investigate each and every accident that occurs. Federal agencies must operate within their authority and also use scarce resources accordingly. The NTSB rarely sends investigators unless it is a major incident. And when it does so, it is classified as a highway accident. FRA measures the severity of the accident, as well as the initial reports regarding the circumstances. Location also has a bearing on the dispatch. If an accident is not in proximity to FRA inspectors and not a situation such as a hazardous materials explosion, it will be completely removed by the time inspectors could arrive. The authority to investigate lies with local authorities as in automobile accidents. However, FRA lends its expertise and works with local authorities in many, if not most, instances.
Event Recorders. The article is also critical of the handling of the locomotive event recorder, the train ' s "black box." FRA regulations require railroads to preserve recorded data for 30 days following any reportable crossing accident to allow the NTSB or FRA a chance to analyze the information. Local investigators also can ask for the information. If the railroad is not forthcoming, the FRA is ready to step in and assist. The FRA recently published a proposed rule to improve the crash survivability of the black box to better safeguard the data for post-accident review. Despite being given the above information, the reporter used pre-2003 data (before the FRA had authority to enforce failure to telephonically report a single fatality crossing accident) to suggest that the FRA is lax in enforcing reporting regulations. The reporter also ignored information provided that over the past five years, the FRA has collected more than $1.2 million in civil penalties from railroads specifically for accident reporting violations and another $795,000 for highway -rail crossing warning device violations.
While The New York Times article highlighted some important issues, it also missed an opportunity to heighten public awareness of the dangers of ignoring highway-rail crossings, the major source of accidents and fatalities, which we encouraged the reporter to highlight. The New York Times could have provided a great service to the entire nation if the same amount of time, resources and newspaper ink were used to examine the causes of highway-rail crossing collisions and how best to prevent them. Invaluable information could have been disseminated on the potential hazards to the public when crossing railroad tracks and the extreme caution needed. The article could have explained how the public and local officials could join with us in saving the lives, which have so tragically been lost. And it is disappointing that it chose to ignore the tremendous and successful efforts the Federal Railroad Administration has put into the prevention of vehicle-train collisions, which has been one of the great success stories in the transportation arena.
Here in the San Francisco Bay Area, we have three different gauges: standard-gauge MUNI streecars and LRVs; BART at 5'6", and the cable cars at 3'6".
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
A quick update: the track connections are being installed this weekend at the junction where the Southwest and Southeast Corridor lines meet.
Don't feel bad, a lot of people who should know better have made that mistake.
A Philadelphia car can run in Pittsburgh, but a Pittsburgh car can't run in Philadelphia.
It's 2.25 wider than Philadelphia gauge.
Why the quarter inch difference?
Nobody knows for sure, but the reasom may be rooted in the past.
Around the pre-Civil War, there seems to be a mindset in the Councils of several northeastern cities that "if we are going to let a private company to rip up the PUBLIC streets and lay tracks, then the width of the tracks must be that of the local wagon/carriage bulders".
We know that for a fact in Baltimore, as words to that affect are in the original franchise issued in 1858 to the Baltimore City Passenger Railway Company. Apparently the other companies got the same requirement as well (the suspiscion is that the City Council simply used the same wording in all the franchises issued).
In Philadelphia the same thing must have happened. Anybody want to play history detective?
Neither the B&O or the infant PRR used anything but standard guage.
The story of the wider than standard gauges has nothing to do with keeping RR trains off city streets.
In Baltimore the B&O had street trackage from 1835-40 on, earlier than the horsecar franchise, which was 1859.
Frank Hicks
Only Glasgow was actually used by Railway wagons and they were hauled by an Electric Loco between Railway Sidings and a shipyard
Can anyone confirm ?
LIRR gauge = Metro-North gauge = AMTRAK gauge = NJ Transit gauge = PATH gauge = SIRR gauge = IRT gauge = BMT gauge = IND gauge etc.
What is "car gauge"? Width of cars? If width, where on the car--top, middle, bottom?
BTW, Toronto's gauge is 4'10 7/8"; a wrong measurement was posted earlier in the thread.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
Boy, you are the last to try to answer a question but the first to fill the air with nasty insults, you and your toady JJB.
1. I was on a southbound B train, leaving Prospect Park. The train stops right before X344, which was showing green-over-yellow (switch to local track). The T/O tries to contact someone over the radio for more instructions. Apparently, there was no response. The T/O then proceeds with the following conversation with the C/R:
"Hey, Conductor"
"Yeah"
"Is there a G/O for us to go on the local track?"
"Yeah, I guess it started already."
With that, the T/O accepts what 344 is giving it and heads for the next stop, Parkside Avenue.
2. A train of R68A cars was spotted at the Beverley Road station, with the following indications on the side signs:
Midtown
57 St / 6 AvConey Island
All cars had a Yellow Q on its signs.
3. A southbound B train on the local track was seen making a stop at the Beverley Road station with about half of the first car on the platform (the rest not platforming). There, it waited for a few seconds, sounded the horn twice, and proceeded through the station. It did the same thing for the Cortelyou Road station.
-Broadway Buffer
8101-8104
til next time
BTW, that 4-car set was the first R143 set to be delivered.
-RJM
The only R143 I have caught pics of down there is during the night from the street.
Cars 3510 (1 sign) and 3511 (2 signs) have them also.
I also have the list for the readings on this sign, also. It will be posted on Monday.
til next time
I'm well aware the current signs are much vaguer in that they don't label trains as "Express" or "Local" anymore.
As for those new terminal signs on the R-38s...are they ever going to appear on R-32s? And are the north signs going to receive the same treatment? It looks a little weird to see the north signs all in left-alignment and then the south terminal signs being centered...
(E) Queens Blvd Express
8th Ave Local
Or something to that effect
"|" indicates a line break on both the interior and exterior, "\" indicates a line break on the exterior only.
8 Avenue\Express
8 Avenue\Local
Avenue of Americas|(6 Avenue) Local
Shuttle
Avenue of Americas|(6 Avenue) Express
8 Avenue\Local
Avenue of Americas|(6 Avenue) Express
8 Avenue Local|Queens Express
Avenue of Americas Local|Queens Local*
Avenue of Americas Local|Queens Express*
Brooklyn-Queens|Crosstown Local
Rockaway\Shuttle
Nassau Street\Local
Nassau Street\Express
8 Avenue\Local
14 St-Canarsie Local
Nassau Street\Local
Broadway\Express
Broadway\Local
Broadway\Local
Broadway\Express
Broadway\Local
Nassau Street\Local
Shuttle
Special
Not In Service
* Exterior reading abbreviates Avenue as Av.
JFK Express
(A) Washington Hts 8 Av/Fulton
(C) 8 Avenue Fulton St
(C) Concourse 8 Ave-Fulton
< C > Concourse 8 Ave-Fulton
(H) Rockaway Shuttle
(E) Queens Blvd 8 Avenue
(F) Queens Blvd 6 Av-Culver
(F) 6 Avenue Culver
(G) Queens blvd Crosstown
(R) Queens Blvd Bway-4 Av
(R) Queens Blvd Broadway
(S) (yellow) 63 Street Shuttle
< W > Astoria Broadway
(N) Astoria Broadway-Sea Beach
(B) (yellow) Broadway West End
< B > (yellow) Astoria Bway-West End
(D) (yellow) Broadway Brighton]
(Q) (yellow) Broadway Brighton
(D) (orange) Concourse 6 Av-Brighton
(D) (orange) Concourse 6 Avenue
(Q) (orange) 6 Avenue Brighton
(B) (orange) 6 Avenue West End
(B) (orange) Washington Hts 6 Av-West End
(B) (orange) West End Shuttle
< B > Washington Hts 6 Avenue
(K) (blue) Washington Hts 8 Avenue
(S) (orange) 6 Avenue Shuttle
(V) via 6 Avenue
(M) Myrtle Ave Nassau St
(M) Myrtle Av Shuttle
< M > Myrtle-Nassau West End (my sign has upside down M on inside)
< R > (brown) Nassau St 4 Avenue\
(Z)
(J) Jamaica Nassau St
< J > Jamaica-Nassau Brighton
(L) 14 St Canarsie
(S) (gray) Franklin Av Shuttle
(P)
(T)
(U)
(X)
(Y)
Shuttle
Whew !
Bill "Newkirk"
NYCTA 14-81-7397
SIDE ROUTE SIGN CURTAIN - SOUTH
PO.# 31512-188 R-30-32-38
TRANSIGN INC.
Bill "Newkirk"
It is sort of ironic since Paterson used to be a really big rail town with various line going right through the streets of Paterson...almost to the point where it was becoming seriously dangerous.....that now they want to bring light rail into the city using old freight ROWS and probably streets. It will be sort of interesting if it does happen.......which I hope it does......
-Chris
file:///C:/DOCUME~1/Michael/LOCALS~1/Temp/FrontPageTempDir/wpe3.jpg
My suggestion? TransitGallery.com
-Chris
-Chris
Click here for wallpapers @transitpics.com
-Chris
-Chris
-Chris
-Alexander-
FYI......The LIRR actually did run through what is now Fresh Meadows....obviously...before the housing boom took place....you can actually see the old ROW as a walking park.....along Underhill Ave....is was part of the Old Central RR branch that hookup up with the Port Washington branch...
Here's one of many websites on the Old Central RR ROW...
http://www.lirrhistory.com/centpics.html
No, it ran just north of Sunrise, not in the middle of it. The current elevated/embankment structure is within a few feet of old surface ROW.
#4306-"B R40"
R110A's are for the IRT, and their car numbers are in the 8000's.
-RJM
til next time
Nice way to get to Montreal from NYC: the slow, sure, Amtrak No. 69. The views of the Hudson and upstate NY are just gorgeous.
SAS
But presumably most French-Canadians already know how to use the Metro. And you'd think that they'd like visitors to be able to figure out the transit system before they get there. A useful website in the language of 90% of these visitors ( from USA, Ontario, etc. ) would not hurt.
Even the Paris metro has a great English-language service!
http://www.ratp.fr/index_eng.htm
None of this is said from political correctness. Montreal should have an English translation of its website out of self-interest. And NYC's MTA website should be multilingual, the way the ( best in the world by far ) MTA farecard vending machines are.
Frankfurt's are as easy to use, as are Barcelona, Madrid, and lots of other cities, just not many in the US, I will admit.
I think NY's MTA vending machines ( subway, LIRR, M-N ) are astonishingly good. I was afraid that the MTA would screw them up but they hit grand slams with them all. Gotta give credit where due.
http://www.stcum.qc.ca/English/a-somm.htm
As for their bus system, what a joke. Main routes like the 15 on St. Catherine Street run at best 2 or 3 times an hour, like a Long Island Bus schedule.
http://www.metrodemontreal.com/
-William A. Padron
["Wash.Hts.-8th Av.Exp."]
[Train]
file=r44 ; R44 Train by Tony C
Change the R44 to R1 and you're set! As a sidenote, the file=xxxx can be whatever train the route is using at that time.
If it's a .CSV file, then after you isntall the train you can check for the line in the beginning that may look like this:
Train.Folder lt1938
Same deal as before with the sidenote, change the lt1938 or whatever it may be to R1. Have fun!
The old site arrangement wasn't IE only though. :(
Shalom from Tel Aviv. Andy.
-Chris
Selkirk: Feel like giving a R1 101 class?
School car, eh? (grin)
Welcome to AMUE ... it's not your sissy SMEE ... with AMUE you have to WORK for a living. Heh. The way we ran the real deal is we charged the station, took 10-15 pounds reduction and lapped it, released it one we slowed down, took another bite, lapped, released and then went for that final pull and release just as it got down to 3 MPH and let the electric hold do the work.
The TRICK with AMUE though which distinguishes it from SMEE is that there's NO dynamics at all to smoothly slow it. It's all straight air. When you pull a service, you determine how much air you want to feed the float, then you LAP it. The lap HOLDS the air pressure constant. When the braking effort catches up, you release - however there's a couple of seconds delay in each action so you have to anticipate this ahead. All I can say is do what we did in school car - PRACTICE ...
You'll get it ... unlike today's NYCTA "toy trains," AMUE required SKILL ... and it was simply a matter of time, practice and FEELING OUT your train ... once you get the FEEL for it, you'll be fine. But it's an acquired skill ... and Ed tweaked my math a bit to make it PERFECT.
Just like on the REAL thing, the SECRET is to service a PUFF of air. A SMALL one ... then lap it (to hold it) then release ... what throws newcomers to arnines is that it isn't a "proportional pull" and weak dynamics like SMEE ... you take a bite entering the station, you release it, then you take another bite and RELEASE just as you're about to stop. Takes a LOT of practice because AMUE is very different. But once you get it, you'll find that the geese will be indifferent and yellow at worst with time.
A LITTLE air goes a long way in AMUE cars. :)
Seriously, give it a SMALL puff, don't hold the lap too long, release, go for it again ... Unca Jeff H gave Ed the "specs" and Ed went with the specs ... you'll get it ... keep trying. I has faith!
Hooked on arnines, are we? (grin)
You all made my weekend!
Shalom from Tel Aviv. Andy.
--Acela aka mjf
www.nyctba.com
-Chris
Thanks,
Paul
Best thing to do is ask our forums here.
--Acela
www.nyctba.com
The thought now is what about NY to New Haven on Metro-North or AMTRAK or NY to New Jersey on AMTRAK or NJ Transit? What about West Palm Beach to Miami on AMTRAK or TriRail? Could this practice by AMTRAK eventually threaten the reigonal carriers?
http://www.vre.org/service/schedule.htm
Don't see how. You can't use an MNCR ticket on Amtrak, presumably because MNCR and Amtrak can't come to a reasonable revenue-sharing agreement. If VRE doesn't want to pay Amtrak all that money, then next time the agreement comes up for renewal they just need to be more hard-nosed and say they won't pay Amtrak extra to carry VRE ricketholders.
VRE trains are already maxed out in the mornings, if it weren't for the Amtrak agreement a lot of passengers would be out of luck. VRE cannot add more trains.
At Bay Head, yes. The "waiting room" is a glorified bus shelter. I don't know about Suffern, having only ridden through there a couple of times.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
©2004 Cleanairbus. Photo taken in White Plains, New York, 7/12/04
The Cleanairbus Transit Page™, http://www.cleanairbus.com
Bookmark it today!
Any questions, comments, suggestions, complaints,
E-mail Me
--Carlton a.k.a. Cleanairbus a.k.a. Second Avenue Stubway
-Chris
I usu. take the E to Broadway to transfer for the 7 to Main St. This morning around 8:15p, a 7 rolls into the station, as always. Nothing seems to be the matter. However, when the train stopped, the doors did not open. Then the train started moving, and I automatically thought this was an inadvertent express. Funny this happened because I saw the C/R in his 'post'.
However, after moving about 4 car lengths, the train comes to a halt. We wait. Another 7 pulls up behind a red signal right before the station. I thought the train stalled because nothing happened for about 4-5 minutes. Another Manhattan-bound 7 came by and left. We wait again. Finally, seeming out of nowhere, the doors open and the C/R is left stating "exit 74th St. at the rear of the train.
The doors close. And we are left to stand for another minute before departing. The conductor makes occasional errors in his announcements, but it wasn't bad. Funny also, the motorman didn't mention anything about this unusual occurrence, but did say when we arrived Junction, that we would express to Willets Pt.
Anyone know what happened or can comment about this once-in-a-lifetime occurrence?
But you said they open the doors, I assume the last 5-6 train cars because the front 5-6 wouldnt open out of the station.
And when you said about then going Exp to Willets sounds like something happaned and somebody c/r or t/o did something wrong(fake c/r or t/o perhaps? This happaned before, wouldnt be surprised if it did again and kept hush hush.)
What do you mean by a fake c/r, t/o?
You would think, so why didnt the cops come... Well it'll be easier to get the train home then to wait, etc... Understand better now?
What do you mean the front cars wouldn't open out of the station? Only the r-142's ( and probably the r-143's) can interpret sensors in the stations. Not the r-62's.
R-32.
snitch!
Vampire?
I Vant To Suck Your Blood...
I wonder how the C/R didn't open the doors in the first place. I think 30 seconds was long enough.
I added this to clarify. Whether it helps or not is up to you.
I propose that the MTA make a deal with the Yankees that if they uphold the Curse they will swap the colors of the 4/5/6 and the A/C/E.
At least the 1/2/3/9 doesn't go to the stadium.
til next time
-Chris
-Chris
-Chris
Meet the Mets, Meet the Mets, Step Right Up and Beat the Mets. etc...
Actually these days it would be black, blue and orange :(
D.W.E.L. well
-Broadway Buffer
You must be kidding, aren't you ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Sorry, but the MTA is not going to change its permanent subway operations just to please Yankee fans. They put an R142 train on the 4 and wrapped it in Yankee pinstripes and they run extra trains on the B, D and 4 trains during the games. Is that not enough?
Btw, how do you access the Transit Museum? I think they are having a special for the centennial celebration. And what are the open hours?
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/mta/museum/
Bingo!!!!!!
This is what I call my "Time Saver Tip" to get to the Annex at Grand Central.
He told about yesterday's (7/22/04) 9 min delay after someone found a note in the bathroom that said, "You're all sitting ducks." He said that Amtrak officials then told police not to worry, because it's just they're new slogan.
-Broadway Buffer
(and before the "he's bashing republicans again" ensues, look it up. Union Pacific *is* Cheney's railroad, look it up)
-Broadway Buffer
George, last year when I took a Surfliner down to San Diego, we rode in business class. It seemed to me that he car was identical to the caoch cars, the only difference being the free snacks.
And the on-board video systems in the business class cars haven't worked properly since day one.
Of course, thebest seat on the Surfliners is the one in the cab with the engineer, and I am lucky enough to partake of that quite often. The extra seat in the coach baggage cab car is more comfortable than any of the passenger seats back inthe coach itself. Same for the one on the locomotives, but the locomotives bounce around somuch you don't feel comfortable up there.
Bill "Newkirk"
The 33rd St. bound train didn't come for a while, so I was stuck taking the round-robin train back to JSQ. I disembarked at Pavonia/Newport, hoping for a NWK train nearby. Little did I know after the next train back to HOB was gone, I waited close to 25 minutes for the next train, only to find this too was going to HOB and 33rd. But then around 12:15a, a syncopated rumbling sound is heard, unlike from any other PATH train entering the station.
Little did I know it was a diesel-powered tractor #54830 with a few garbage trailers stuck in front and behind it. It stopped at Pavonia, exchanged greetings with the work crew there, and took them on the trailer to HOB. It trundles away.
5 minutes later, the yellow light is flashing on the tractor as it heads back to Pavonia. This time to stop for a good amt. of time. All trains were rerouted to Track 1 for trackwork.
The past two days, I saw the same tractor just west of Harrison with crew. All service was on the WTC-bound track.
Does PATH regularly do trackwork during the wee hours? Where can I learn about the track work and what they're doing?
The front of the train looks exactly like the shuttlecraft used in Star Trek: The Next Generation. Even the "nacelles" on the lower side of it look like little engines.
Some imagination, lol. :P
http://www.startreksite.com/diagrams/stv_shuttlecraft.jpg
Where's the Metrocard farebox ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I could show you where you swipe it but this is a family site...
:)
I'm often surprised that Rome's metro looks so dumpy, considering the city's police wear Armani-designed uniforms, so I've heard. I'd expect they'd tap someone like Giorgetto Giugiario to design their subway car bodies.
I think futuristic styling would help draw riders. This approach has been used before. It was big part of the original PCC project. The art deco styling was very modern in its time, especially compared to the quaint styling of previous cars. It was hoped that a slick design would help streetcars compete against the modern automobile as car ownership began to rise in the 1930s.
Mark
Mark
Bill "Newkirk"
anyway, look at this future, a future that most shows in the 70s and 80s pictured as being run by robots and having hovercars and stuff. who says the future will look like that? it will probably be the same as this time. i mean, they only just made a hover train that actually "hovers" on top of the magnetic track. if thats the future subway, ill be researching on how to time travel back to this time to enjoy the subways.
Does anyone know what station this commercial was done in? I figure it had to have been done late at night in order to get the station all clear. The station had Arch I (four-coffer arch) architecture, meaning it had to have been either Medical Center, Bethesda, Friendship Heights, Tenleytown-AU, Van Ness-UDC, Cleveland Park, or Woodley Park-Zoo/Adams Morgan. Also, does anyone remember the train type that was used in the commercial?
Please help me satisfy my curiosity. It was a cute commercial, and I make reference to it on my regular Web site in a video.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
The Other Dinkey
I spent most of my time in Ames, home of Iowa State University. While walking down the street I happened upon the twon historical society. In their window they had a display on a light rail line that connected the ISU campus and the passenger rail station a mile or two away, and operated in the late 1800s and early 1900s. It was originally pulled by donkeys but later a tiny steam engine pulled unpowered carriages. It was called The Dinkey, oddly reminiscent of Princeton University's rail service.
Sadly, today no passenger trains serve the depot, nor is there a light rail line to connect the depot to the university. Nowadays Ames just has bus service. But it's a good bus service for a town of only around 74,000 people. I'm sure the university subsidizes it heavily. Given how compact Ames is there's not much you can't bike to, if not walk to, but the bus is handy when carrying heavy loads or in unpleasant weather. I rode it a good bit, and was able to get
anywhere I needed to go on it with little difficulty.
Urban Planning on the Prairie
I spent a little time in Des Moines, too. It has about 400,000 people in the metro area. I'm not sure it will ever be a good candidate for light rail, but I was impressed with what they were trying to do with their downtown. There are already several residential developments downtown, with several under construction. It seems Des Moines is a few steps ahead of cities two and three times its size in terms of knowing what it takes to make a metro area into a real city. But the streets of Des Moines are still dead. What's missing are things like grocery stores and the like, services for all the residents who live downtown, and places for them to go that will get them out and walking around. Currently, the urban sodbusters of Des Moines have to drive out to the suburbs to buy groceries and take care of other business.
And they'll have to drive because although Des Moines has good transit during the day, it runs too infrequently after hours for people to use it with ease or convenience. Again, I'm not sure they'll ever get enough population density to build light rail, but bus service (which is good compared to other cities of the same size I must say) should be enhanced if the city wants to make its core a vibrant urban community.
Of course, I could see a streetcar like the one in Portland looping through the downtown and connecting it to the residential areas just immedicately surrounding it. That would be cool.
Mystery Frieght Line
Also in Des Moines I saw a freight train whose line I couldn't recognize. The locomotive was an EMD high-nose model, black with a horizontal orange stripe running along its middle, trimmed with thin yellow stripes. The nose had black and yellow diagonal safety stripes. Does anyone know what railroad this is? I wasn't close enough to read the name. Their line runs south of downtown on the north side of the Racoon River.
-Mark
Steam "dummy" lines (so-called because the 0-4-0T or 0-4-2T locomotives that pulled the trains were often shrouded in "dummy" passenger car bodies, supposedly to avoid frightening the horses) were found in various parts of the US. Usually they were relatively short-lived predecessors of electric railways, as in the case of Birmingham, Alabama (that one comes to mind since I'm reading a book on the subject right now) but some were just the last gasp of a horsecar line that never quite made it into the electic era. From your description it sounds like the line in Ames fell into that catetory.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Mark
An issue not limited to Des Moines. Downtown Manhattan's residential population has grown considerably in the past several years, but it's still greatly under-retailed. I suppose "urban pioneers" are willing to put up with the lack of convenient shopping.
That's true. I have a feeling though once a critical population density is there, grocery stores will show up.
I think that these business help vitalize a downtown, grocery shopping gets people out on to the sidewalk where they can meet, socialize. Also while they're out they're probably more likely to patronize business like restaurants and bookstores, things that aren't necessities, but that people might go into on a whim if they happen to pass by.
Mark
This is what one would see in everyday operations.
This is what all 99 destination code possessions on the roll would show.
Yes I know 51-53, 57, 59, 61-64, 78-70 are blank/unused, 75 blank not applicable to roll signs and 74 75-99 all show No Passengers, but the reader stripes are different. I took the liberty and used 8 bit binary code to layout the reader stripes. Mind you I have no idea if 8 bit binary was used on the original signs or some other binary code schema.
Oh and 81 New York Avenue Siding is a programmed code, but the siding has been deleted from the New York Avenue station project.
Fire up your color printers and have fun.
John
Most trains running to Silver Spring or Grosvenor came out of Shady Grove or Glenmont yard. (And those that didn't, came out of Brentwood).
Another driving home point: don't forget about the odd blue line trains to Franconia-Springfield that come out of New Carrolton yard (and are running revenue from New Carrolton all the way in). Or are blue line MCI-Center specials.
You do know that destination signs with strip maps on the original roll signs were not bidirectional?
I guess as long as the right station is listed as the end station, then it is fine, but it seems to me that it was better to get away from the roll signs in the long run.
The automatic roll signs were a component that required significant amounts of service and maintenance to keep them in proper running order as we know. I will admit that the electronic displays are cheaper and more reliable to maintain.
I for one would like to see some form of display used in the exterior sign boxes that would mimic the traditional text used on roll sign. I am not a big fan of the stadium type score board displays used for destination signs on any type of transit vehicle. This includes the interior electronic displays used in the CAF cars and the Breda rehabs as well as the electronic passenger information messaging system displays in the stations.
I would like to see some form of plasma or high resolution color LED display developed that could reproduce the graphic fonts used throughout the system. These type of displays with all the support hardware could be produced in numbers at a reasonable cost so that transit properties around the world could us them.
There are some medium resolution color LED displays used in outdoor advertising that I have seen.
John
This was what WMATA use to have. Mind you they were not on separate rolls. We know the story why they were abandoned for electronic signs.
Three exterior signs displaying terminal station and two or four interior signs displaying strip maps using high resolution LED or plasma displays is what I would like to see.
The information that could be shown on these type of displays other the just the strip maps are endless.
John
Ben F. Schumin :-)
The problems you may have encountered with the Passenger Information Messaging System displays has little to do with the displays them self. The displays will only display what given to them.
From what I understand about the SmarTrip system is it works fine, it’s just that there are not enough SmarTrip cards to go around to the people that want or need to use them.
John
Sounds to me like it’s time to dump SmarTrip and go back to paper fare cards and or flash passes.
John
Tuesday, July 27, 2004; Page A22
Metro's chief executive, Richard A. White, and other officials shouldn't have needed a "crystal ball" to anticipate that the decision to require SmarTrip cards for use at all Metro parking lots would sharply increase demand for SmarTrip cards [front page, July 23].
Customers aren't asking them to foretell the future, just to use common sense.
With cards in short supply, riders face further inconvenience, and this comes on top of recently increased fares, financial mismanagement and complaints about poor service.
Metrorail customers should consult the House Committee on Government Reform, rather than a Magic 8-Ball, for answers.
ZACH BREVIS
Alexandria
•
I'm done with Metro.
After being a daily rider since 1977, I've dusted off the car and am driving again.
I have forgiven Metro for the escalators that are always being fixed but are never repaired, the short trains during off-peak hours, the crowding, the dirt, the annoying announcements explaining 45-second delays while there is only silence when the train stops for 20 minutes. But the latest idiocy over SmarTrip cards [Metro, July 24] is too much.
Like many riders, I use Metro not because I lack a car or access to a free parking space downtown (I have both) but because I believe in mass transit and not adding to Washington's traffic and air pollution problems.
But yesterday I started driving. I'll count on The Post to tell me when Metro shapes up. I'm curious as to why a 28-year-old system is such a disaster when New York's 100-year-old system is, albeit unsightly and noisy, as dependable as ours is not.
M.J. ROSENBERG
Chevy Chase
I took liberties when I did the artwork. This artwork was not spouse to represent what would be found on the original roll signs, but represent what would likely be found on the signs using present day destination codes.
And as to the Silver Spring and Grosvenor strip maps, I think "appohsmit" said it best "they're destination signs, not "coming from" signs", besides this adds additional flexibility to the sign.
John
Right you are, correction made.
John
IND:A C E B D F V G rockparkS
BMT:N Q R W J M Z L franklinS
Cars: R32,38,40,40m,42,44,46,68,110b,143
A-38,44
C-38
E-32(rare 46)
B-40
D-68
F-46,32
V-46
G-46
S-44
N-68
R-46
Q-68
W-40(rare 68)
J-42
M-42,143(weekend shuttle only)
Z-42
L-143
S-68
You ought to start doing some research of your own to find these things. NYCsubway.org and a NYC subway map(not to metion some historical ones) should help you out GREATLY. Thank you.
-Chris
-Chris
-Chris
-William A. Padron
["Wash.Hts.-8th Av.Exp."]
It's the same thing with the B and the D. In Brooklyn, they run under the B1 BMT frequency. At Grand St, they operate under the B2 IND frequency. That's why I always believed the B and D were BMT in Brooklyn.
In terms of routes:
Manhattan 7th Ave (1/2/3/9), Lexington (4/5/6), 1/2/4/6 in the Bronx, and the Flushing line (7): IRT (the Dyre Ave (5) line was purchased by the IRT)
Brooklyn 4th Ave (B/D/Q/W/N/R/M), Culver (F), West End (D/M), Sea Beach (N), Brighton (B/Q), Franklin Shuttle (S): BMT (Southern Division)
Brooklyn Jamaica Line (J/Z), Myrtle Line (M), Canarsie line (L): BMT (Eastern Division)
Manhattan: Broadway (yellow, N/R/Q/W), Nassau (J/M/Z): BMT
Manhattan: 6th Ave line (B/D/F/V), 8th Ave line: (A/C/E, plus B/D uptown), plus the entire A line in Brooklyn and Queens (the Rock Park segment which was purchased from LIRR): IND
Bronx: D line (IND)
Crosstown line (G): IND (though it shares some trackage on Culver with the F at its southern end)
Queens Blvd Line: (E/F/G/R/V): IND
Then, comes the post-unification construction which isn't properly identified with any of the original 3: The Chrystie connection, the extension of the 'E' to Jamaica above the J line, and the 63rd St. connector. And, arguably, the section of the 1/9 going through the WTC which was recently rebuilt, as well as the 33rd St. PATH tunnel, which runs at grade with and between the 6th Ave IND local tracks (and above the 6th Ave IND express tracks).
Some thing similar to this.
However most of the mid line short turn destinations did not have strip maps on them. All of the mid line short turn destinations that were not temporary terminals during construction were white text on a black field.
John
For a tram pic go:
http://forum.nahverkehr-ffm.de/index.php?sid=
->"Strassenbahn"->"Unwetterschäden in Frankfurt"
Here's a pic of the subway station:
That's happened in NY a few times, after water main ruptures...
BTW, wait till you hear the details for the next MOD trip. Two words: dinner stop.
til next time
59th St to Church Av. Train Split Coupled back at Ocean Parkway.
Lunch at Stillwell West End line to 9th Ave. Split at 9th Av. FOUR runbys from 9th Av to 62nd Street
No Rain just lots of fun. See you tomorrow?
Chuck Greene
Best wishes,
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
That's the funniest thing I've heard all day! Thank you!
We saw southbound shrink-wrapped car #3513 come and go, then rode the next northbound train to 36th Street, Pennsauken.
While we waited for our late southbound train to show up, an unscheduled northbound train approached on the southbound track. I looked the other way and saw the southbound train approaching on single track. Fortunately, it took the northbound track for its station stop. The northbound train, with no passengers aboard, went through the station without stopping, while the train operator motioned for us to take the trainon the other platform.
We got off our southbound train at Rand T.C. and the northbound #3513 was already there.
We watched #3513 cross Broadway and head out of sight before we took PATCO back to Collingswood.
Heh heh, patient at ages 3 and 15 months, with a 28-minute wait I'd be crawling up the walls :)
Here's a photo of them on the PATCO train. Pete's looking at the railroad and Rose is looking at everything.
* ryan
The train operators ring the bell before starting to move. The operator of 3513 even re-opened the doors after closing them when (s)he saw two passengers running out of the PATCO Broadway station.
The Bad: Replacing R40 Slants... NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!
If something goes wrong....
Begin over 1/2 a year of waiting...... now.
Replacing R32s, so it'll run on the A/C/E/F/various others...
Make that E/F...
Sorry 'bout that...
Most people say the R44s will be the first to go, and that idea is supported by the recent retirements of R44 5248 and 5268
No decisions have been made yet, Fire Island boy. What you're reporting is TA personnel scuttlebut and wishful thinking. We'll know in 2 years.
I never questioned you on that, duuuuude.
Now, if Train Dude ran Pitkin ....
David
I hope the MTA splits half the option order to the D, & the other half to the line that didn't get the main order (hopefully, the A/C/E line will get the main order, and the B/D/F/V will get Option 1, leaving J/Z with Option 2...)
So WTF was it your business to make and post your original post? The stuff in there that was true was either already known or completely obvious, and the rest of your post was just blatantly false. No offense, but...
I hope the other half of the primary order goes to the... and the . Oops, wrong colors... That'll do...
til next time
\\Julian
Bill "Newkirk"
Aside from being rail fans who like trains, does anyone know how its doing in terms of revenue? Is ridership stable, or is it growing?
No projections were ever made as per operating expenses, nor have any been published. AirTrain is supposed to represent "state of the art". It could also be used as a model to project any operational savings from a totally automated operation.
Not good. Especially since air travel seems to be bouncing back fairly well. Any idea why the numbers are so poor?
Arti
Of course that's only a perception, but neither PA nor NYC is doing anything to change that.
Arti
All these (except price, where the jury is still out were not optimal at the beginning of the year, but have improved lately.
If improvement still lags in July, chaanges will be needed.
Arti
I don't think it's a rip. If I had to use it everyday, then it's a rip.
Bill "Newkirk"
That has started to change. You will recall that MTA's maps reflecting AirTrain were not in their final form until March.
AirTrain was also not reflected on MTA's website until recently. I wrote to MTA asking for specific enhancements on MTA's website; I got a positive response by mail and soon thereafter links to AirTrain service appeared on-line.
I also asked for specific enhancements to the announcement boards at Penn Station and to announcements made on board LIRR trains. The MTA agreed that these were important and would be implemented; for example, an Airport or AirTrain symbol is to appear on the Jamaica station slat on the master board at Penn Station.
I don't know if this last item has been carried out yet.
"Especially since air travel seems to be bouncing back fairly well."
You're premature. Summer yes, April, no.
All in all, I'm not worried about April results. But if AirTrain figures don't improve in June and July, it's time to start thinking about fare changes.
It has to be cheaper than one seat bus ride to capture single travelers. For parties, it would have to be free, IMHO.
Arti
Greyhound is often cheaper than Amtrak, but a Greyhound bus, especially along the NEC, cannot offer service comparable to an Amtrak train. Different markets, different clientele.
Different clientele. Different markets. Not a valid comparison. Think about Greyhound and Amtrak, and you'll understand.
Amtrak carries more vacationers, more families and on the NEC, it carries a lot of business travelers. Not Greythound.
And on many long distance routes, Greyhound is cheaper - but then what you have to put up with (like putting 25 cents into a bathroom door to use it, bus stations which are the parking lot of a conveniemnce store) is not something an Amtrak passenger is going to put up with.
The point is this: Will Amtrak or Greyhound ever put each other out of business? No way.
There isn't any bus service that can replicate what LIRR/AirTrain or Subway/AirTrain does - the transfers to rail aren't as good and the schedules are not remotely as good as what the subway or LIRR network can offer. People who are service-and schedule sensitive will not use a bus over rail (but they may use a car/car service or limousine ordered up just for them). People who are very price sensitive will use the bus, and railbuffs whose stereotype of a train doesn't include AirTrain will take the bus - but those people were unlikely to ever use LIRR to begin with. Some might have used the A train if the AirTrain connection were free (but it isn't). You can't use the subway from the Island, of course. So AirTrain is not for these particular customers.
AirTrain competes with autos, taxis and car services. The point of comparison is market share of these with AirTrain, not market share of bus services.
"There isn't any bus service that can replicate what LIRR/AirTrain or Subway/AirTrain does "
NEW YORK AIRPORT SERVICE!!!! I don't know how many times I have to say it. And it's a one seat ride to more desintations in manhattan than LIRR, which, when it comes to time, is the next best thing. I'm sure the buses are pretty frequent too. And if not that, then Trans Bridge also runs JFK to PABT.
Greyhound: The people in the back are having sex and shooting up.
Amtrak: Families with kids, some traveling salespeople, and much more legroom.
The bus IS a one-seat ride from JFK. But it is expensive and subject to traffic. So all the places it goes to once in Manhattan are useless. A lot of people who live in the City get off at the first opportunity to jump on the train. A bus in Midtown traffic is slower than walking.
And yes, I have ridden Amtrak. I agree, it's a little bit better. I've seen plenty of families with kids on Greyhound too. Most recently was going to New Hampshire on a bus to Bangor, Me, or was it
Bar Harbor.....They looked like they were going on a camping trip. The whole family. And I've seen plenty more families traveling via Greyhound.
As for fares, they apparently came down dramatically. I remember Greyhound used to be far more expensive then Amtrak last year.
And how are all the places served by NY Airport service useless? That's like saying since Greyhound has to drive through Manhattan, all their Manhattan destinations are useless.
You obviously have a very skewed view of things. I suggest you start going with actual experiences and not with bullshit rumors you heard on some crackwhores website.
It really sounds like you need to get out and look around a little. Do you have ticket stubs proving you've ever taken Greyhound? They have a specific market segment that they serve very well, and it is not Amtrak's.
Bus and rail are not the same market segments, just as rail and air, outside the Northeast corridor or the LA-San Diego Corridor, are not the same market segments. AirTrain can succeed or fail and it will have no effect at all on what happens to the bus services. They don't care, nor should they.
Oh, I remember callin the people pickin us up from the New Haven area sayin we were runnin late(I later found out we weren't), but got an answerin machine. We got to Newton 45 mins early.
On one trip several years ago to the Lehigh Valley from Philly (Stateof PA subsidized route), we had several Navy guys, a couple of guys with biker-style tattoos who reeked, two old ladies traveling together...one of our stops was at Willow Grove (there is a Naval Air Station there).
On the return trip, I remember a college couple in the back was gettin a lil freaky, but nothin too far. We got to PABT 20 min late. The rest of the bus was all sorts of people, from business types, to families, to more college couples.
Same bus again, same stops, same kinda people, this time, going to Boston. Again, left 30 mins late. And AGAIN! The same song around the same area!
I remember specifically a mother and father with 2 or 3 kids with camping gear. I figured they were going to Maine, cuz they seemed a bit pissed when they found out they had to switch buses cuz there was a problem with the one we were on. I could feel it jerkin back and forth on the highway every now and then.
Ive seen every kind of walk of life come thru my terminals doors,and can attest that very few are buisness types....
How about middle class college students traveling between home and college? They will ride either. If you don't believe me, visit PABT bus terminal lower level and Penn Station on the afternoon before Thanksgiving.
Let's see:
People shooting up and having sex in back (once)
People just having sex in back (twice)
People playing with lighters and burning the bus seat covers (twice)
People getting drunk and throwing up (once)
People physically fighting (once)
People smoking in the bathroom (ten times at least)
People trying to sell stolen/non-existent goods to me (once)
People propositioning other passengers (once)
People stealing from other passengers (once)
Bus driver stopping the bus on the interstate and threatening to kick passengers off if they don't "cut that shit out" (once)
At night, it was so bad that the employees in Cleveland would all find something to do in back offices when a bus came in. So the passengers would go crazy, screaming, running around, and causing havoc until their connecting bus pulled up. (That was always the worst part of the trip.)
I'm glad you had good experiences with Greyhound. But there are also some very bad experiences to be had on Greyhound as well -- and they're not too hard to find.
Except for the guy trying to sell me computers, cameras, gold chains, and the like: He was operating in the middle of the day in the Chicago station. (That was actually funny! He wanted to sell me an Apple IIe.)
I forgot another offense:
People groping other passengers (twice)
2) "I'm sure the buses are pretty frequent too. "
But you haven't looked it up, so you don't know.
"And it's a one seat ride to more desintations in manhattan than LIRR,"
And subject to traffic, inconvenient for people dependent on mass transit, etc. etc. There are people who will use it, but the point you missed is that AirTrain's success is not measured by how many people it takes off NYAS. It ias measured by how many people it takes out of cars and taxis and limos.
Fortuanately, the PA did not publish the number of dispatched taxi's prior to AirTrain's inauguration at JFK. Otherwise, it might be a complete bust, even by your standards. :-)
Before AirTrain to EWR, I took the PATH to Newark Penn and a cab from there. More expensive, but much faster than a bus through the tunnel -- especially on a Friday afternoon.
It took me years to convince people to take the train from Newark when they would visit; it was a culture change for them. The speed was what eventually won each of them over.
50 minutes is pretty good in my book, and I'll use AirTrain again.
A cheap ride that restricts your ability to work (very little workspace, a slower ride, subject to traffic) is expensive in terms of your time.
A tourist who doesn't mind the extra time involved, or a rail buff who by definition is spending time doing what he/she likes may prefer a bus over AirTrain (especially if he/she is the type that has a narrow view of what a train supposed to look like - "bring back the R-9s") may well prefer a bus. Those of us who need to get somewhere a little faster, want to work at our seats (reading, taking notes, finishing an application on a laptop, answering email by wireless and reviewing documents) prefer rail, and that's what is now available at EWR and JFK.
Of course, some will always choose a limo or car service with a driver to take you to the gate and handle your bags for you. And that will still be subject to traffic (unless you pay for helicopter service). There are always choices.
I read the advertisement for the Airtrain while riding the Path this morning. I got confused because it sounded like both Airtrain at JFK and Newark were combined. Furthermore, it called the monorail at Newark the Airtrain too!
I didn't know the Monorail at Newark Airport was called the Airtrain?? All signage and NJ Trainsit trains call it the monorail.
Have referred it to several ( primarily business ) travelers. Each of them have come back with very positive reviews.
My experience, confirmed by others, is that the E train to Sutphin Avenue / Airtrain combo is significantly faster and more predictable than a taxi from midtown or the East Side, at a much lower price.
I think that this service has been badly publicized. Even on the current subway map, JFK Airtrain route appears in a thin yellow line that is hard to see, even if you are looking for it.
Whereas Continental Airlines heavily promotes the indadequate Airtrain / NJ Transit combo to NYC, no airline that I can see is promoting JFK Airtrain.
JFK Airtrain is not for everyone, but despite its flaws, it is radically superior to the bus connection that existed before. With better promotion, could not understand why ridership cannot go up two or three times.
The trouble is that Newark Airport may be considered the most convenient airport to midtown Manhattan. If I recall correctly, it actually offers more domestic flights to more places than JFK does, though JetBlue is helping to change that. JFK is still the premier international gateway, but Newark is actually much busier.
Whether JFK or EWR is more convenient from Manhattan is a matter of debate. There's no clear answer, as the relative travel times differ by time and by location in Manhattan.
One thing that is clear, however, is that EWR attracts a higher percentage of business travelers - there are many more businesses in northern New Jersey than in the JFK area, JFK competes more directly with LGA, and EWR doesn't have a major low-cost carrier like B6 at JFK. If we're to assume that non-business travelers are more likely to take rail options, which I think's a reasonable assumption, it's all the more puzzling that JFK Airtrain's numbers are so far below expectations.
For Jan-Apr 2004:
total revenue passengers - EWR: 9,866,832; JFK: 11,264,502
Actually, the figures for Newark's AirTrain are even more abysmal than JFK's.
I'm surprised that JetBlue is not promoting AirTrain. It's the largest carrier at JFK, though not as dominant as Continental at EWR, and as a low-cost carrier presumably appeals to budget-conscious travelers.
Signage and information at the stations at JFK are totally inadequate. The fact that you have Howard Beach and Jamaica AirTrains running on the same track already makes it confusing for anyone who does not already know the route system. PANYNJ staffers on the station platforms were essentially useless in helping people. There was a lot of jumping on and then off the train when people realized (by asking passengers already on board) where where the train was going.
Having said that, the ride to Jamaica was terrific - fast and smooth. I loved the way the train zips over the endless traffic jam of the Van Wyck.
But exiting at Jamaica presented another logistic and communications challenge. You had to buy your $5 metro card at one machine to get out of the terminal, and then buy your LIRR ticket at another machine.
As I was traveling on a Sunday, the special $2.50 City Fare was in effect from Jamaica to Penn. which made the overall cost very attractive.
But I would not have known that except that a staffer came over as I was halfway through the machine transaction and told me to cancel and start over. This seems entirely too complicated, especially for first-time travelers or tourists. Until they can make this system more user-friendly, I doubt that the general public will warm to it.
No, you don't. There's an LIRR TVM inside AirTrain fare controls that sells a CosmoCard:* a combined LIRR ticket and MetroCard.
*Not official name.
Signage and information at the stations at JFK are totally inadequate. The fact that you have Howard Beach and Jamaica AirTrains running on the same track already makes it confusing for anyone who does not already know the route system. PANYNJ staffers on the station platforms were essentially useless in helping people. There was a lot of jumping on and then off the train when people realized (by asking passengers already on board) where where the train was going.
Having said that, the ride to Jamaica was terrific - fast and smooth. I loved the way the train zips over the endless traffic jam of the Van Wyck.
But exiting at Jamaica presented another logistic and communications challenge. You had to buy your $5 metro card at one machine to get out of the terminal, and then buy your LIRR ticket at another machine.
As I was traveling on a Sunday, the special $2.50 City Fare was in effect from Jamaica to Penn. which made the overall cost very attractive.
But I would not have known that except that a staffer came over as I was halfway through the machine transaction and told me to cancel and start over. This seems entirely too complicated, especially for first-time travelers or tourists. Until they can make this system more user-friendly, I doubt that the general public will warm to it.
CTA does not have all readings on all signs. There are (I think) 12 or 15 readings on each sign, selected by a three position and a four or five positon switch. So you could have A1, A2, B1, B2, C1, C2, etc. or something similar.
The 2400s on the Green Line have readings for the Green and Blue lines: Harlem/Lake (G), East 63 (G), Ashland/63 (G), O'Hare (B), Forest Park (B), 54/Cermak, Rosemont (B), CTA, Not in Service, Express, [etc.]. The Blue Line 2200s and 2600s have readings for the Blue and Orange Lines. All have the same special readings. The roll sign selection also selects the correct marker lights automatically, as seen here.
The roll signs for the train are controlled from the cab that is active, so if you change ends the signs automatically change to the selected reading for that end. Occaisionally there are one or two or even a car out of sync.
Matt
Historic st. mary's railway
wayne
John
I would hazard a guess the numbers go down when you couple Saint Mary with pax.
John
I'm thinking since it just started it's too soon for any 3rd party to put anything up online about the line. Unless a chamber of commerce has info.
Maybe i should give a call?
But I like that top one.
The front right windshield was all cracked. I wish there were some way that these second class musuems can get all their stuff in mint condition.
I was told that this pennsy car was originally ran in service on these VERY TRACKS. Bascially bradenton/sarasota service on the silver star/metorer and went to Miami. Very fascinating. The interior was in too bad of a shape to let me board. :( I love this car. I think i'm going to volunteer to singlehandedly restore the sucker.
This one was very nice, old non air conditioned:
A few of these pics were used with my brand new 12 dollar big lot tripod. :) all courtesy of myself in the SW Florida jungles. :)
Chuck Greene
til next time
Heh, you just gotta get used to him.
Didn't that Canarsie-inbound Broadway Brooklyn ramp used to see limited AM peak revenue service? From November '67 through summer
'68, there were some peak directional JJs that ran to/from Canarsie instead of Jamaica. And while it was never officially posted during its eight-year lifetime, there were supposed to have been a few KKs stored at Canarsie yard that ran in revenue service to Atlantic and then switched to its normal routing into Manhattan at the Junction.
The train pulls into 59th/CC not too long after the scheduled time (10 mins late or so), boarding from the non-revenue-service center platform. Once we're on the train and underway, Bill Wall informs us that due to numerous GOs on the Eastern Division, we will not be able to ride the J. Instead:
Down to W4th via the 6th Ave line.
Over Manny B North Side, and from there down the Brighton to Stillwell (lunch stop). At Church Ave we were permitted to board the BU cars, and at 9th Ave we dropped off the Arnines to ride the BUs solo. First photo run between 9th Ave and Ocean Parkway.
Then back up via the West End, making 4 photo runs back and forth between 62nd and 9th Ave.
At 9th Ave we reconnected with the Arnines, and rode the Arnines back into Manhattan (dropoff stops: 36th, Pacific, W4th, 34th/6th, terminating at 59th/CC).
A few high points:
Going over Manny B outbound: An R-32 Q train on the south side!
At Stillwell: Orange Q! On one of the side rollsigns. I searched for any signs, but no such luck.
After leaving the excursion train, while waiting for my uptown 1 at 59th, guess what goes by on the express track, but a consist of REDBIRDS!!!! REDBIRDS!!!! I didn't catch the car numbers since I wasn't paying close attention. Sorry :(
A story from Fred G about being harassed by MNRR police on the way down for photography. So far as I know there were no railfan/police clashes at Stillwell (a welcome surprise). The results of an informal voice poll were strongly in disfavor of the photo ban :)
Many shocked faces of geese upon seeing not only ARNINES, but WOODEN BU CARS! The facial expressions alone are more than worth the $40.
A couple of the usual foamers
A relatively small (but proud and elite) SubTalk contingent
And a very special guest: Our very own BROADWAY LION, Elias! it was great to finally meet him in person after all our conversations online. And yes, the lion came for a ride too :)
Group pics were taken and will be entered into the public record for your perusal, enjoyment, and shock and awe.
There should be loads of great pics coming soon.... :)
The train was late (9:10 scheduled departure); Around 9:20 Metroliner #203 came out, so I assumed the special was held for it.
The northbound Vermonter came along as the Train to the Fair came out and waited for a signal to follow #203.
Train to the Fair
Franklin Field
Franklin Field, of course, is famous as the venue for the Penn Relays
The Train to the Fair had P42 #45 pushing.
#45 and Frankilin Field
Franklin field, of course, is famous as the venue where the Eagles won their most recent NFL championship, defeating the Giants in the 1960 championship game.
I understand traffic after the race is horrendous.
the only other ones i've seen first-hand are:
baltimore light rail - only one basic line and very straightforward.
boston T - goes a farther distance, i think, but easier to figure out.
SLC rail - also 1 or 2 basic lines, more of a commuter rail than anything else.
DC subway - a little confusing at first, and goes a much farther distance than the NYC subway end to end (i think), but not nearly as many different lines.
i would imagine that the Hong Kong or London metro systems might rival it, but i'm really not sure.
Got any questions? (This is your brain on a token!)
Some lines are. The most overloaded are Line 7 and south-western part of Line 1. (See http://www.urbanrail.net/eu/mos/moskva.htm )
> but isn't it the most used in the world?
Yes, ~8 million passengers per day.
London, New York, Tokyo, and maybe Seoul, S. Korea, may be the most complicated systems in the world. Among 2-trackers, Paris, Madrid, may be the only ones with more than 10 unconnected lines. Munich, Barcelona, Washington, maybe a couple of others get into the middle range but, again, they are 2-trackers.
My final opinion is: New York, London, Tokyo for merged lines; Paris and Madrid for many, many 2-track lines (14 and 12, respectively).
A final comment about someone's comment about the Philadelphia Regional Lines: The Philadelphia Regional lines are not much different from MNRR + LIRR: The 6 Reading Rail Lines from all directions merge into the Filbert St. Tunnel from the east into the 7 Pennsylvania Rail lines that radiate out from 30th St to the west.
METROPOLITAN
At least 4 western terminals, various levels of express service, shuttles, short turns.
HAMMERSMITH & CITY
It used to be part of the METROPOLITAN, but has its own distince terminals. Shares track with METROPOLITAN, DISTRICT and CIRCLE. Both most frequently used terminals are stops on the DISTRICT where they connect via a different route.
DISTRICT
Several southwest terminals, shares ROW with PICADILLY in Local Express mode.
CIRCLE
The ultimate shuttle...
PICADILLY
Multiple terminals west.
NORTHERN
Two separate routes through center of London, these join for 1 stop and then split into two branches north with several terminals.
CENTRAL
Multiple terminals east and west plus short turns.
and these are only the major ones. London must have 30 or more different destination pairs, not to mention local-expres options. If they used numbers and letters like NYC they would need more than the 35 available.
At least in New York, every line has a single pair of terminals at a given time (except the 5) and there are no multiple routings on the same line. (The closest is the F & G - but they are separate lines!
Gerry
Mark
Mark
Of course, Oren (WMATAGMOAGH) has. :)
Mark
I don't think any system has the complextity of NYCT in terms of routes merging and diverging. You can stand on the northbound Pacific St platform in the AM rush and end up in 4 totally different places depending on which train you take. And there are many stations where the trains at one platform lead to 3 different places.
London has simplified the operation of it's Lines over the years to isolate the Lines where possible and eliminate 'branches' . also two new "Cross Town' lines have been opened to give more interchange facilities .
people here need options.
It's a map from year 1996. Something new was built since that time:
New map!
the Second ave line will only bring about 8 miles to the system,or rather the new subway as the MTA wants to build it...the 2nd ave subway design from the 70's wouldve run all the way to the Bronx alone unused trackage...it wouldve added 14 miles to the system....
The only thing in London whih really confuses everyone is that web of BR Southern Region suburban lines. That's probably a combination of complexity and abysmal stylistic representation of the network.
However, the Paris Metro - though extending only relatively short distances out from the centre of the city - seems to me to be more complex than either London or NYC, in that there is criss-crossing web of lines all over the city.
Paris is at least as simple as the London Underground. The map's awful, but the basic concept's - well - basic. Line 1 bisects the city from East to West, Line 4 from North to South. Lines 2 and 6 form the circle. All the other lines really are just additional horizontals (3, 8, 9, 10, 11, 14) or verticals (5, 7, 12, 13).
This sounds like a disadvantage but with suitable Interchange Stations it can simplify it for Passengers.
Date: 8/14/04
Consist: the 4 museum R9 cars
Trip begins at: 59th Street/Columbus Circle
Time trip begins: 4:30 PM
Ticket prices: $30 for adults, $15 for children under 13
Ticket availability: day of trip only, on the train.
Planned routes: most of the BMT southern division.
Evening fantrip! Someone suggested this last year, I'm glad Bill & crew decided to try it. Begin foaming....NOW
til next time
Your pal,
Fred
Good luck & get better!!!
Chuck Greene
--Mark
Chuck Greene
Well, here it is. If you want to be in the group photo next time, LET ME KNOW!!!!
Chuck Greene
-Chris
Caption: We're looking for a few good men, but this is what we found...
Just kidding :)
It was a great group to be with, and I'll probably be out again on the 14th for that little transit soiree...
-Jeremy aka JPC
Your pal,
Fred
my first reaction when seeing this picture -- what have we done with our country? sigh.
As a retired cop I resemble that remark.
At the rate were going we'll all be cops soon. (and draftees?)
If anything, I LOVE the way the smoke shoots out the top when they give it some gas. And for that thing going 5mph by me, the ground was shaking way more than I expected. I should've used the tripod though. :(
video here
Matt
What's the exhibit like on the other end of the line? I've driving by their storage yard in Willow a while ago, but do they go to some other yard?
I dont' remember where I read it exactly, but I remember they wanted to extend the route south into ellenton and stop at the Gamble Mansion/Benjamin P. Judah shrine. It is right there and I guess those tracks are still intact in some capacity. I guess when that's done yankee's need not apply.
I thought according to their website when you get off the train there's a bunch of old cars as an exhibit you can look at.
I would've liked to have went around their yard of old trains and such on display, maybe braved being the only person under 60 on the trip(with the exception of 2 young families i've seen).
I'm drawn to this non a/c'd MU though, it needs some paint work. And as it took off, it looked like the only empty car!
Hope this is enough clues. Check my other threads, suchs ad GO/tri-rail pic and Brooklyn steamer and other misc. You might get some angles of pics that will help.
What trains use the new but small facility? Any other background info.? Thanks.
Bill "Newkirk"
Btw, what is the ESA FEIS?
There were several major errors in it. As the preferred option, it talks about 4-6 separate station caverns, even though the plan has been for 2 double-deck platform caverns for at least 2 years.
til next time
One of the reasons was at the station you were standing all day. The switch at Essex St. was taken out as per GO. We wouldn't be able to leave the Eastern Division. We had to go back to the IND to 59th St.
Even Bill Wall noted about the "trip chasers" were gonna be in for a big surprise.
Bill "Newkirk"
Newly redisigned NJT page is HERE
-Chris
-Chris
Anyhow, sweet shots of the Comet IB cab cars and coaches. Those cars may be history soon.
Also, does your camera have manual controls for the shutter speed? If so, you may want to start using them in situations like these so that your shots won't be blurry.
Actually, most of them only go to Long Branch. Service from Long Branch is electrified and goes to NYP. Diesel only runs through from Bay Head to Hoboken on five weekday and three weekend trains.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You might try searching "subway signs" on eBay.
An interesting observation... The original gate cars could only display two signs (route and destination). The sign box (for unused signs) was located where the botom sign is displayed. When the train reached 111th St, the nearest gateman would replace the 111th St sign with a Bridge-Jay St sign from the sign box.
It sure ain't no fire department...
Baltimore City Fire Department.
As to the NYC transit VEST, not at BSM while in service. You must wear the official uniform: Blue Bell Crown Cap (with badge), White shirt Navy Blue pants (slacks or skirt for ladies) and black four-in-hand tie. No exceptions.
What date as well as day of the week will be good for you (remember that you can only pick up a photo permit on weekdays)
what is the earliest that you can arrive in Boston
What is the latest that you can leave Boston
What parts of the system would you like to see
If there is a good response I will post a time date and itinerary in a few days.
They're not much fun in private either...
Your pal,
Fred
Anybody willing to show me and my dad(also a railfan)the sedgwick station/tunnel/whatever is remaining?
Or atleast can tell me how to get down to the old Sedgwick Ave platform?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That was 1 heckuva tour thingie, but atleast those whom attended
its offerings had sense enough to grab video memoirs (or CERTAIN) other remnants.... :)
Shame it got sealed...
Regards,
Jimmy
hEh.
I'll say it again...
Jimmy is directing you to old ELEVATED parts.... ya won't find any "station parts"
unless you took that tour thingie in 2000. (then you'd know --WHERE-- the station parts are)
Oh, and I hope you're wise NOT to try it these days... peeps who
know the area well (and post here) are also tight with the TPD so,
bet the barn if you publicly state a tour date and plans, the authorities can (and will) know about it/you.
(personally, I'd rather have CDTA try that tour, than you, brahcel!)
1Maxell9
And why them tour it then me?
"Jimmy is directing you to old ELEVATED parts.... ya won't find any "station parts"
unless you took that tour thingie in 2000. (then you'd know --WHERE-- the station parts are)"
The elevated parts ARE THE STATION. I wasnt there and even I knew that, theres 'no stations in the tunnel', clueless aren't you?
And I made this topic for a reason, to make a group to go there. So why dont you, me, and my dad whos also a railfan, meet up somewhere to tour the area?
Wish some others would come aswell.
There are Bronx remnants left. The portion of Sedgwick Avenue that was built of concrete still exists. The staircase down to the uptown platform of Sedgwick Ave starting from the Major Deegan pedestrian bridge still exists but appears to end abruptly. There are no vestiges of the bridge over the Harlem River left, except for a foundation wall that can be seen from the Manhattan side if you know where to look. The staircases to the street can still be partially seen (unless they were since filled back in). The portion of Jerome/Anderson that was underground and "open cut" until the Jerome Ave overpass still exists, but to get to Jerome/Anderson you either have to walk the tunnel or climb the ridge between the apartments that sandwiches the right of way. The ramp to the Polo Grounds shuttle off the Jerome Ave El still exists just past a substation. Some track might still be there, but not much.
--Mark
--Mark
Seriously, isn't the old SBK ROW it was elevated over now gone, built over at many points? The only remaining section I know about is the concrete ramp which was just east of Fort Hamilton Parkway.
Seriously, isn't the old SBK ROW it was elevated over now gone, built over at many points? The only remaining section I know about is the concrete ramp which was just east of Fort Hamilton Parkway.
D'OH!
Lets take a crane, and plow right through the houses along the ROW. :P
To get to the Sedgwick Avenue station, it is under the Major Deegan Expressway but above the level of the Metro-North tracks. In order to get to the station, we had to climb down the embankment that supports the southbound Major Deegan. You can access this from a footbridge just north of the Macombs Dam Bridge. The portion that was on the embankment and under the Major Deegan, was built of concrete and much of this structure remains, although there are no signs identifying the station at all. Evidence of two subway-type entrances could be seen on the eastern portions of both the uptown and downtown side platforms. A bricked-up entrance was partially broken into, and a peek inwards revealed the standard yellowish station tiles that can still be seen in many subway stations today.
You won't be able to see the Jerome/Anderson Ave station remains becuase they are ABOVE the street at the other end of the rock ridge tha the tunnel wuns through. You'd have to climb this ridge, which is doable near an apartment house, but I suspect there would be alot of 911 calls if you were seen doing that.
--Mark
It takes a little scrambling down a slope, but nothing too taxing. IIRC, you can avoid the embankment by walking a thousand feet or so to the south.
Not at all. It's just a bit of scrambling up and down a slope. Not like you're free-climbing El Capitan or anything.
I'd recommend them... thick leather ones... not because of the steepness of the hill but because of the stray needles left around.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hey, if you're going to go explore, do it with some of your friends. Safety in Numbers there besides some company there too if you happen to be lost (yeah right, how'll that happen)
Exploring the tunnek itself isn't possible any more as it was sealed up tight after the Subtalk trips in early 2000. About all you can see are the station remnants outside the west portal.
--Mark
Who knows, do you really think there gonna spend money on that when they need it for other needs. :/
--Mark
Passed by yesterday on the MOD trip and saw it for myself. She's standing right where the R-16 stood. Didn't someone here say the R-16 went to Linden Yard ?
Bill "Newkirk"
til next time
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
til next time
What purpose does this "poll" even have?
til next time
Sorry, I was unclear at first.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
He's asking what team we like more; and thus, which subway line that SERVES that team's stadium we like more.
For me, it's the (7) and the Mets.
Well, i would think so, being that your handle is 4traintowoodlawn. To tell you the truth, I could care less about baseball, but I like the Yankees over the Mets ANYDAY.
HOWEVER. I would ALSO prefer taking the B or D to Yankee Stadium over the 4. AND IMO, the #7 train ROCKS!
-Chris
MOD pix coming soon!
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Chris
til next time
Had a great time drag racing on the Culver, the CI Shop runaround, and the run back up Sea Beach. Got to talk to a good number of people who I'd not normally see all in one place. And I got to ride the BU-Q's for the first time since 1980.
The BU-Q's ran great, and the sound they make is one of the best in the world. I wished I could have seen them in service in my old nabe, missed that by ten years.
Thanks to everyone who made this unique opportunity possible.
Oh, yeah, the subtalker flash fight was pretty amusing.
STREETCARS
Highway lobby helped bring end to rail
Thursday, July 22, 2004
This is in regard to the July 15 article "More cities desire streetcar routes."
Although the usefulness of the streetcar declined substantially with the advent of the automobile, there were other factors at work that helped cause the demise of streetcars: government policy and the clout of the highway lobby.
When gasoline began to be taxed decades ago, it was decided that all such tax revenue would go into road building. This outright subsidy gave automakers thousands of miles of free roads that encouraged the sale of their product. The streetcars had to pay for every mile of their tracks and couldn't compete on a level playing field.
Years ago, Congress attempted to use some of the gas taxes for other purposes but General Motors had other ideas. It banded together 2,000 groups into the National Highway Users Conference to lobby against this notion, and Washington caved. The gas tax remained committed to the highway builders. No other form of transportation is supported at this lavish level.
The United States suffers from a structural lack of transportation options that is unique for an industrial nation. Other advanced countries subsidize all forms of transportation that are easy, affordable, seamless and enviable. They also know that moving people by highway is the most expensive way to go.
Rails? Bring 'em on.
Nancy Duersten Racine
Mark
Which companies passed upon on Orlando because of it's congestion?? Did they locate elsewhere in Florida??
What was funny about Scripts is, they had the list of cities like everyone does, and the day after Mobilty 20/20 failed(a transit tax) they announced South Florida. They were waiting to see if the congestion tax was goig to pass. The timing is too coincidential to say otherwise.
Chase Manhattan has been 'coming' to Tampa for a number of years, but they are just now getting around to it. They have in mind to consolidate all of the operations on a single campus somewhere in Tampa.
BTW...did you read that Capital One is closing its doors? They won't specify the country, but they are outsourcing their customer service to India; been in the grapevine for months/years.
R-32.
I froget who it was, I dont' think it was chase, but some wall street company choose Tampa over Atlanta to build a campus. Only problem is I think it's going to be on some Bruce B Downs New Tampa style area, where you'd have to pay me a high wage to brave that style commute again.
It was some anaylitical firm I think.
The Eckerd layoffs almost certainly have resulted from the company's recent sale. I highly doubt they result in any way from the area's poor transportation.
First, I agree with just about everything the author said about how the gas tax policy way back when encouraged mass transit to get the shaft and be underfunded. And we are still paying for it today.
However these days, gas tax revenues are falling far short of what they used to be (due to better fuel economy, yes, even despite gas guzzling SUV's) if you converted older revenues into today's dollars. And people are reluctant to raise taxes, so we have a problem. In Virginia, they pretty much stopped approving new road building projects, because there is barely enough revenue to maintain the roads that are there now (and legally, maintaining the old must come first). So as far as spending "surplus" tax revenues on transit....don't hold your breath waiting for the cash to start flowing in!
I would definitely be in favor of a large tax increase on fuel, because this would generate lots of money for transportation projects, and in certain cases, i'd even say that portions of gas taxes should go to support mass transit (but not in all....for example, in Virginia, SW VA gas customers shouldn't have to pay for transit improvements in northern Virginia, but Fairfax County people should).
I would also be in favor of creating special taxing districts for mass transit. Afterall, it wouldn't be fair to only tax auto-drivers for mass transit when a decent chunk of their users never drive cars. But everyone pays, lets say, sales taxes. Cities that institute a nominal increase in sales taxes would see benefits by increasing their customer base if their customers could get there more easily on mass transit.
And lastly...increase impact fees for suburban developers, and earmark part of that to mass transit. Afterall, its those suburban developers who are encouraging these transportation problems to continue, so they might as well pay for it.
Without numbers it sounds reasonble to me. And less congestion means those trucks actually move and the truckers get paid. Everyone should win.
This isn't likely to happen. The current administration does not favor gas taxes as this has become a dirty word. What has become an acceptable form of taxation for the motorist is called tolls. In the next decade, we will see billions collected in the tolling of American roads. The Bush administration and Congress are giving states the rights to put tolls on todays freeways. The objective is have tolls so high that only those with enough resources will be able to afford motor transportation thus increasing capacity while decreasing congestion.
In the next twenty years, the cost of driving is going to go way up including the price of goods transported by truck.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0721/p08s03-comv.html?s=hns
I can't wait for my local state's gas tax holiday coming up. I'm going to save 8 cents at the pump! But i'm stil paying 70 cents more than I'm comfortable with.
As a roadgeek, i support tolls, especially if they are electronic tolls. Reason being: a freeway costs more to build/maintain then a local road. Therefore, toll it to make up the cost difference. Since cars get better gas mileage on freeways then in stop/go traffic, they actually pay less per mile to drive on the freeway.
Additionally, with variable tolls, you can adjust them for the "cost to society" of traveling during peak periods. Works well, probably especially well in NYC where mass transit is a decent alternative, but you are always going to have people saying that its not fair to the mother of three who's just getting by and has to drive to work at 9AM and drive home at 5PM :(
That's what happened in the case of the variable-rate toll lanes added to the (IIRC) Riverside Freeway in California. Even when they were under construction several years ago, they were being called the "Lexus Lanes" because it was figured that only upper-income pepple would be paying the high rush hour rates to use them. In fact, most rush hour users have turned out to be ordinary working stiffs, who reluctantly pay the rates because they absolutely have to be at work on time. The real Lexus drivers, in contrast, often have some flexibility with regard to their working hours and don't have to pay to use the toll lanes.
At least in New York, that mother of three has a choice. Not so in many other places.
It's a vicious circle.
Tolls are fine, but they come out to be WAY more than what you guys spend on a monthly Metrocard. I used to put out over $110 dollars ONE way each month.
But LONG ISLAND gets off cheap. Why? They even intercourse WESTCHESTER! Ah, Al D'Amato with his hands in his pants. And YOURS. :(
If AL D'Amato suddenly perished, for whatever reason, I'd bet we'd ALL get a 50% tax cut. :)
What about that mother of three who works the night shift but has to pay just as much to drive to work as if she were contributing to rush hour congestion?
I have that problem working in the service industry. And especially in service industry towns, I would love to see varible tolling in the least. Even though in the end, those tolls add up to be way more than i ever paid for a monthly transpass.
You might be onto something. Luckily we have a domestic bus market, with gillig, and NABI in a way, etc. But just like how gov't vehicles are typically american, who would protest these companies making domestic transit entities.
But even if they did get a foot in that market, it was folks like Buick and others who realized that not only could they sell cars every 5 years or so while a trolley lasts over 40 years, but if you changed the design every year, you can sell more cars. Lot more cars to be sold versus streetcars. And factor in all the ones totaled, stolen and so forth in the year. But I would argue before that some of us would be more wiling to get a car if we can at least use it once in a while(no plans to give mine up anymore for an expensive one).
That's enough arguing with myself now.
I was trying to find some info on something called Detriot Speedlink, and it looks like the car companies funded studies for that transit plan.
With a larger US railcar market, GM might be tempted to get into it - and maybe GM would buy Adtranz or Siemens' railcar group?
The railroads have also been stupid about this. How long did it take UP or SP to figure out that piggy-back and container trains were a good idea? First the truckers had to beat them up in freight loadings before their idiot managers woke up to this.
Yellow-Roadway, which also owns New Penn Motor Express, is one of the largest motor freight carriers around. It has a symbionic relationship with freight railroads.
When a market changes, you can adapt. But you have to want to.
GM does not have to now because federal law subsidizes highways to a point where we are squandering resources like land and energy.
But there are the concerns you mention like the fact that selling millions of automobiles will make more money than selling thousands of subway cars. (That's the whole idea of transit, it moves more people for less expediture of resources!)
But as we've seen in the past, increased efficiency anywhere, in moving people for example, makes the economy work better. I'm thinking of how when the shipping industry containerized longshoremen's unions fought it, thinking that with ships easier to load and unload, longshoremen would get laid off. But what in fact happened was that the increased efficiency led to an increas in the volume of good shipped, so much of an increase that the number of longshoremen needed remained about the same.
So if the companies in question did in fact diversify into a number of markets, maybe they could see profits from the increased efficiency of a world where transit was the main way of getting people around metro areas, and trains connceted close cities. But diversifying is the key. As long as a company puts all its eggs in one basket, say oil or automobiles, this won't happen.
I know that a lot of these companies are diversified. Oil companies make plastics and automakers own electronics subsidiaries. But I think they should diversify more.
I think of it this way. Wal-Mart, love 'em or hate 'em, sells just about everything. They do this so they can make money no matter what people want. They'd be foolish to only sell toasters and then try to rig the world so everyone ate fifty slices of toast each day. Instead, they let the market decide what products will sell and stock their stores accordingly. Oil companies and automakers should take a lesson from this.
Mark
Except condoms.
That's what "just about" means ;-> they ain't gonna have everything you want . . .
Transit costs less overall, but has more local value added. Or at least regional value added, since the majority of NYCT employees live outside the city. Automobile components are global sourced -- not that I have a problem with free trade when it is associated with more efficiency rather than less.
And the money saved by using transit instead of automobiles -- additional taxes and fares vs. auto purchase, finance, insurance, gasoline -- can also be used for purchasing items with more local value added.
The statement "This outright subsidy gave automakers thousands of miles of free roads that encouraged the sale of their product." is misleading.
I would suggest anybody that want to understand the full history of the roads in United States should read "American Highways 1776 to 1976"
John
No, it is not. It is very accurate.
The interstate highway system was seen as essential to improve lines of communication and defense during the Cold War.
However, the automakers clearly understood its significance to them, and they acted accordingly (such as GM's buying and ripping up trolley tracks in Los Angeles).
Developers understood that vast tracts of land would be opened to develop housing - and there were subsidies to be had in that arena, too.
A lot of interests supported the interstate highway system.
Go to your public library and check out the book I suggested. The book ("American Highways 1776 to 1976") was compiled from information from the National Archives, the Library of Congress, the library of the United States Department of Transportation and the library United States Department Agriculture. It was published by the United States Department of Transportation as part of the celebration of United States Bicentennial in 1976.
Even I was enlighten on a number of things that I thought were different then what is the standard dogma of the pro transit anti road groups. You are libel to learn a few things that you now do not know about the evolution of transportation systems of the United States.
John
However, I stand by mine. The statement you claim is misleading is absolutely true. Since the highway system has many patrons, it remains true because it does not conflict with other motivations.
That book maybe interesting from 1776 through the 1890's, but after that most books tend to be in agreement from the new deal on. Lots of studies, newspapers, magazine articles, etc availble from that era it seems.
The vast majority of those wreck are caused because people pop stupid pills before the get behind the wheel. And I have been guilty of doing same. Believe me I have seen a lot of this carnage, and ever time I think it’s time to say I have seen it all I see some thing new. I would hazard a guess of all of the people posting on this board I have driven more miles then anybody here. Last time I checked it was something just under 2 million miles over 20 years. You ask how come you have driven so many miles? It’s how I pay my bills. If those roads were not out there your mail would not get delivered. Those goods would not be on the shelves of the stores you shop in. That milk and bread and other food products would not be in the supper markets you shop in. That FedEx or UPS package from that online shopping site would not be delivered to your door. All of those millions of dollars in check that are deposited in banks everyday would not get back to the issuing bank.
That book maybe interesting from 1776 through the 1890's, but after that most books tend to be in agreement from the new deal on. Lots of studies, newspapers, magazine articles, etc availble from that era it seems.
There is very little if anything in said book that are from newspapers, magazine articles, etc. Most if not of the writings are by people working for the United States Department of Transportation, the United States Department Agriculture and the research sections of those agencies as well as people working for the Road Commissions and or Department of Transportation of the various states.
John
In other words. the very agencies that are providing the welfare payments to the oilmen and sprawl developer criminals. Get your teeth out of America's neck. We need European style gas taxes and no limit autobahns so the car nuts can play too.
You can't bike up and down a 2,000 foot mountain. :)
That's a good point. Germans fly on the autobahns while Italians venerate Enzo Ferrari like a saint. Just because people love cars doesn't mean transit won't work in a given culture.
I'd go so far as to say what we have in this country isn't a love affair with the automobile. Rather, we're under its monopoly. We don't love sitting in traffic jams. When other convenient options are available, we use them.
Mark
: )
What I find amusing is out of the State of Florida, The orlando region and east to the ocean including the toll roads are completely converted to Camero's. I rarely ever see any FHP Camero's in the Bay area and it's the just the common cars. Though the local sheriff's have some hot Intrepids that are around only at night it seems.
I would've made the heading 2007 instead of 17.
Mark
I think the train is dead. The cartoon was funny.
Mark
I drove on I-75 by sarasota for the first time today in maybe 2 years. Man it's crowded now. Never cars there last time. There's even a city that didn't exist anymore.
I rememer 2 weeks ago I walked into a conversation at the work breakroom(and butted in). This guy works as a statewide position and travels to all the offices, he says it's starting to get impossible for him to get around now, the jams just keep on building. I see what he means.
When you take a map that's empty(as in no roads), just the grid and a few streams, and add things on there, it crowds up. There was a time where AAA didn't even have a map for the whole county, they would only give me one for just a little section because, really, the rest of hte county just didn't exist for people outside of helicopters and ATV's.
I hope the pro-train campaign buys space on billboards along I-75. "Like this traffic jam? Then by all means, vote against the train!"
Mark
I'd love to know how all that came about.
New new urbanist development right outside downtown Orlando. They rented a lot of billboards facing I-4 with tons of clever slogans asking you why you're sitting in traffic and how much better it would be living closeby to work. I wish i wrote them down. I might be by in 2 weeks, maybe there's more up now.
I think they were popular.
The autobahn is overrated. The majority of cars are not doing 100+ miles per hour because the road is not 8 lanes wide. Furthermore, there's a penalty that's paid for increasing speed and that's more accidents.
Mark
In other words. the very agencies that are providing the welfare payments to the oilmen and sprawl developer criminals. Get your teeth out of America's neck. We need European style gas taxes and no limit autobahns so the car nuts can play too.
Most of these writings were written before there was motor fuel tax at either state or federal levels. All of these Road Commissions and or Department of Transportation of the various states existed before motor vehicles became common. Before automobiles came on the seen roads were pay for with moneys from property taxes. Today something over 95% of the cost of building and maintaining roads are paid for with motor fuel taxes and user fees.
This is not a subsidy. If anything is subsidized it is the projects that are paid for with moneys from the various trust funds that have nothing to do with what the trust funds were established for.
John
(a) residential real estate agent?
(b) McMamsion builder?
(c) in the oil industry?
(d) in the auto industry?
(e) in the road building industry?
Stop wrecking America. Your industry needs to be converted, Plenty of profit for those who don't miss the train.
Plus, 95% of the funds for roads aren't coming solely from motor taxes. Motor taxes aren't keeping up. If that was the case we'd have overpasses falling daily. Now we have property taxes(hmmmm...), sales taxes(hm....), sometimes mutltiple at that, user fees, gas taxes, including federal, state, and more local option taxes(hmm....). And why is it the growth area's that can't keep up max these taxes out? And I forgot insurance, police, state troopers(aka babysitters), medics, and the works. Who pays for them? and i guess the auto industry as in new cars(million are wrecked per year), oil and brake jobs which increase with traffic.
I really dont' understand why the above mentioned professions feel so threatened by 30,000 people or so using a new LRT line, with other factors consisidered more ppl will be driving anyway.
This all may work and make sense in m.t.r. but a lot of us here have stats on everything.
Well I've been online for 13 minutes, that means at least one american has just been killed and 78 people have been injured badly(I think accident induced headaches and back problems NEVER go away do they?).
In Bayonne, we just raised everyone's property taxes because the mayor decided to repave Broadway! In about 3 years, we'll be doing the same thing all over again.
Gas taxes only help pay for the highway but all your local roads are often paid with property taxes!
And in my roadgeek history lessons, I think it's Indiana with all the Interstates going everywhere, it was their version of having the feds pay for all the roads and not them paying themselves.
I wonder if my rent will go up when the property taxes go up again real soon.
John
www.trolleycar.org
100% conservative website
Tell me what u think is better. Tax Cuts from Bush. Or Kerry with his Robin Hood attitude of "take from the rich, give to the poor?" Sounds like socialism to me. Its a free market. Are u telling me that someone who is successful and their kids and grandkids are accounted for can't be that way, cuz others aren't? Kerry wants to make these "two" economies one by not allowing certain people to be successful. (With the exception of himself and Eddy of course).
Eddy scared me last night with that talk.
-Broadway Buffer
We got tax cuts? Maybe I'm not rich enough or care enough about the 1 or so percent to give 3 flying craps a bout it. I haven't seen it unless i'm blind and stupid, and I'd rather those few pennies going to the border guard or some non smoke and mirrors homeland security instead of 100's of terrorists and drug running freely coming through per day.
I was undecided ... as a REPUBLICAN, I'm no longer "undecided" ... Barry Goldwater was right (liberals may say "EXTREME right", send Shrublet and Cheney to Iraq ... let THEM run it and deal with it. Along with all the OTHER crooks in *THIS* state from Joe Bruno, Paturkey, Silver and D'Amato, it's TIME to pull the ripcord on the "Contract *ON* America" from Newt and the GOP's financing of Osama which exceeded that of the "House of SAUD" (source: CBC) to the very "special favor on 9/11" of Bush arranging to get OTHER Bin Laden family members out of the country who were involved in COORDINATING 9/11 ... yeah, "brainboy" is done. I never HAD any "respect" for the thugs that "won, fair and square, 5 to 4" ... any *REAL* American would have allowed the law to complete its course, rather than some Supremes who are as legitimate as Noriega's government rule. Oh WAIT! Bush! Noriega! How SILLY of me to think it mattered. Like the Bushes and the BIN LADENS (ever WONDER how the phucker got away? FAVORS! Yeah, fuggit - Delat Force has a BEAD on Bin Laden, but WE will let the "Northern Alliance" take him out.
***HUH?!?!?!?!?!?!***
Michael Moore ... that's why Fahrenheit SOLD me. The AMERICAN FLAG needs to fly upside down until January 20th, 2005 when we FINALLY have a leader again. As a republican myself in decades, Shrub REALLY has (along with the rest of his fearmongers phucking UP the American people WORSE than Osama did) disappointed me *so* much that I have finally decided to *ACCEPT* the morons who might label me as "liberal" here ... FINALLY, Kerry has shown me that he has some BALLS. No balls, Unca Selkirk don't wanna know you. Unca Selkirk WORRY about picking up soap on a rope with people who STILL think Shrub's OK.
And HEYPAUL, I said all this JUST to torture your mojo. Moo. :)
This was my p me off item of the week. If an election took place tomorrow with you're Goldwater and my Gore, who would win? :)
Ad I need to get cracking on this 9/11 book, I can't wait to see how it ends.
Maybe if they could build a gelatenous wall out of a petro substance.
Guess what, you sound like teh thinktanks who all live in good transit area's.
I suggest you move to Florida, #1 in growth, or houston, or phoenix, maybe vegas, and see how much freedom you're given when all development depends on if the government can increase taxes enough to build roads and parkways. You know why? Because they dont' zone and build subdivisions unless the people in power tell them how many houses they may have and if a road will come to them. Nothing like a half a billion dollar road to up housing permits 600%!
I used to live in your model, and my freedom was excluded, now that i'm back in teh grid system outside of subdivisions, i'm american again. I am sooo sick and tired of you people from chicago and portland theorizing how great things are that ALREADY exists and are universally agreed upon that they STINK! That's like telling something in Vegas while you're in England and saying it rains plenty out there!
The reason why I dont' do m.t.r. often anymore. I see now I need to post the 3+ traffic exposes in my weekly papers instead of just the top 10% that i find.
And if you got a problem, email the Miami Herald, Orlando Sentinel, Tampa tribune, or the St. pete times, any mayor or county commission, and the FDOT engineers, because they all disagree, along with almost 26 million others. And then move to Phoenix where the only way to get you to the hospital is by helicopter(which is at least 10g's in FL, and guess who pays for that!).
I wish we had the money to fund our trauma centers still, least they raised traffic fines to pay for it, because no one else ever needs to use them!
Nonsense. Most roads are local streets, typically funded by neither fuel taxes nor tolls.
The NYCDOT budget for FY 2005 is about $5.15 million. Only about 9% of that is funded from state and federal sources. The city does not levy fuel taxes or tolls.
My car is currently parked on a side street in Brooklyn. It has not moved since June 13. The car does not consume gas while it is parked. I am paying nothing to store a vehicle in a city where space is at a premium.
The state gas tax is the largest single source of highway funds used for road construction and other projects, but the loss of $59.7 million in revenue shouldn't have a noticeable impact. About $58 million in non-recurring general revenue will be plugged in to the state roads fund to compensate for the loss, Bruns said.
Plus, there's still gas-tax money available. Floridians pay at least 24 cents in state fuel taxes -- 14.3 cents in sales and excise tax, 5 cents in local-option tax and 4.7 cents to the State Comprehensive Enhanced Transportation System. Additionally, each local county can impose a tax of its own. Orange County residents, for example, pay 26 cents in taxes per gallon of gas.
Consumers also pay 18.4 cents in fuel taxes at the federal level. "
I had a quote somewhere saying what percent goes to what. They didn't mention property and sales taxes in here. Basically, for having as few taxes here as we do, almost every tax source goes to the car-oriented nature of things and it never keeps up. It's interesting how they go about getting things funded by county, state, and local roads with the designations and all that. Some State roads are useless except for funding reasons(ie. Indiana's interstate system is a good comparasion).
Point, if it's a local street with a blue county sign, it's done via sales tax and county option tax. State symbol roads are funded via tolls, state gas and sales taxes(with some local chipped in), etc...
The side streets may not need as much maintance, but it costs a few million to pave them, and if you park on them, that's free gov't sponsered parking. Which I now do also. If there's money left over, they do streetsweepers sometimes, how nice of them to clean your space. But I really dont' complain about this, though i wonder what the $$'s would be quantified. :)
Warning: your state taxation structure may differ slightly.
I, uh, hope you check on it every now and then ...
I guess civilization in the U.S and for most of the world must have started after 1940! In 1915, everyone must have been living in caves!
I wonder if he knew there are carless cities today that exist???
The building of roads in the United States has been going on for more then 250 years.
John
That still doesn’t change the fact that road building has been going on in United States for more then 250 years.
John
In 1754 even building a dirt road was an accomplishment!
Mark
The Bureau of Transportation Statistics has reported that approximately 3.3 million Americans are "stretch commuters." These commuters travel 50 miles or more one way to get to work. Additional findings include the following:
* One out of every 200 trips is a stretch commute.
* The majority of stretch commuters are male; females make only 16 percent of stretch commuting trips.
* Households with an annual income of at least $50,000 make three out of five stretch commuting trips.
* Five out of six stretch commuters are workers in manufacturing, construction, professional, managerial, or technical jobs.[aka every field?]
* Two out of five stretch commuters start in rural areas.[sounds like the start of sprawl to me. I guess that's how they count those developments in the middle of pastures that make no sense]
* Eight out of 10 trips are one-way trips from 50 to 99 miles; two-thirds of those trips are made at least four days per week.[is this like regional mgr's going to other property's or stores?]
* 19 out of every 20 trips are in a personal vehicle, but if the commute goes beyond 200 miles, one out of every four commuters changes to air travel.[they must be rich]
For more information about stretch commuters, visit www.bts.gov.
If you would like more information or if you have an item you would like to submit to Up-to-Date, please contact Aliyah N. Horton at ITE Headquarters; ahorton@ite.org. Additional international transportation legislation and regulatory information is available on ITE's Web site at www.ite.org.
Copyright Institute of Transportation Engineers Jul 2004
If you commute to Penn from Ronkonkoma, you are a "stretch commuter" mta.info lists the distance as 50.3 miles. Its the auto trips to Ronkonkoma from way way out on eastern LI that make the stretch commutes bad, and its the people who don't ride the LIRR and have to drive to western LI that are plain old just crazy.
It seems that a lot of these rural areas used to be self sufficient (way back when), but nowadays a lot of people feel the need to move to the cities in search of jobs, while city residents with jobs in search of peace and tranquility move to these rural areas and commute like crazy! Personally, I think we should be encouraging jobs to locate to rural areas...then there would be a good reason to develop them with houses...but the whole concept of a "bedroom community" seems to be a waste to me.
Too often "bedroom community" is an oxymoron. You never have community if all you do in your neighborhood is sleep. To have community people have to have things to do, both work and play, to get peole out of their houses where they can meet and mix.
Mark
Moving jobs to rual areas won't fix the problem. Moving jobs outside of the cities has ruined many all over the country. You only need to look at Detroit to see what happens when residents leave for the burbs.
The "bedroom community" is actually affordable compared to living in LI where homes average over 350K!
I think the reasoning behind Massapequa Mike's idea was to have jobs closer to where people live, in order to cut commuting times and distances, traffic congestion, fuel use, etc. These are good goals, but I think a better way to achieve them would be to restore residences to the cities so people can live closer to where their jobs already are. It's just more efficeint to have most of your economic activity happening in an urban center rather than in a ring of many little pockets surrounding a dead urban core, because businesses have to deal with each other. The closer they are together, the better.
Mark
I don't see commute times in California any shorter than New York City and companies were supposed to located closer to where people live due to fact that there is no true central urban center. When companies are located in the burbs, it takes a significant amount of time to reach there because of traffic congestion. Furthermore, when companies are spread out, a job loss may mean having to find another that's 50 miles or more away!
Not necessarily. Medford, Long Island, where I live, has no center to speak of, just a strip of car dealerships and various stores along Route 112, but the housing in most parts of town is fairly dense. I really couldn't call it sprawl.
It also puts a strain on B-to-B interactions.
I think a part of the problem is that people view city quality of life as too low. And many areas of the city with tons of "available" housing are not the most desireable neighborhoods in the city.......if we want to encourage suburbanites to move to the cities, we need to have semi-attractive places for them to live, otherwise, they won't even consider it!
Me, personally, i'd take living in the city anyday over a "stretch" commute, but some people really need to be enticed into giving up that backyard and open space!
The "affordable zone" has moved west, and includes some areas on the edge of where new urban pioneers might be comfortable living. I have a feeling that the market will only bear prices to go so high, since there are only so many people that can buy $300,000 houses. Plus, while three-story twins might command such prices, I don't see the two-story row houses further west fetching that kind of money. I know a few people who have found reasonably-priced houses in the area between 48th and 52nd streets. (A couple I know bought a three-story row house for $81,000.) This area seems to be stabilizing without being caught up in the gentrification that drives prices through the roof. What's more, I kind of get the idea that long-time residents aren't necessarily being pushed out either, which is good.
And of course, these prices have to be compared with those in the suburbs. The McMansions that dominate newer developments fetch prices comparable to those in the best city neighborhoods.
Contrast this to Philly's traditional two-story row houses. They were designed to be affordable housing that working people could afford. I think as Philly revives they will fill that role once again.
Mark
I will add that when i'm home visiting NY, i'm always in the city since most of my friends who stayed up there live in the city now. So I know what city life is like....Massapequa gets old pretty fast. But I will say that having the backyard was nice as a kid.
My parents chose our house specifically because my dad commuted on the LIRR, and wanted to be within walking distance of an LIRR station.
After all, why would anyone call you "Massapequa Mike" if you still lived there? Can you imagine what that would be like? "Hi,
Massapequa Sally? It's me, Massapequa Mike. Massapequa Gladys just called and said she and Massapequa Alfred are having a barbeque over at their house and asked if we wanted to come over. Massapequa Abigail and Massapequa Gustav are coming, as are Massapequa Louie and Massapequa Olga." Now that would just be silly.
Mark
Hate to tell you, but Raleigh isn't "the real world" any more... it's turning into another Cary (which used to be another nice little Southern town until it became the Containment Area for Relocated Yankees who worked at RTP) :-(
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Bunn, North Carolina (35 miles ENE of Raleigh)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Not submitting to ze Gestapo, eh? Ve have VAYS to make you talk...
:)
No... although I don't particularly like flying, my distaste for it goes back 40 years. But I have flown on occasion when it's the only reasonable means of getting there. For my NC-NJ commute, though, flying takes about as long as driving when you consider the full door-to-door experience and Amtrak is less than two hours longer.
Driving has become my preferred choice in recent years, though, since two of our children now live in northern Virginia (one in Springfield, the other in Annandale) so I'll stop and see one or both of them en route.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I've heard that as a general rule of thumb - obviously there are many exceptions - driving is faster than flying up to approximately 500 miles. That fits in well with your 475-mile trip.
Now, if we had serious high-speed rail (not the piddly Acela, but 200+ mph sustained average speed), that range could be increased to about 1000 miles.
For flying, you have to figure, anywhere from 1.5 to 3 hours from your doorstep to the gate, 1 hour for about every 400 miles in the air, and a solid 30 mins to an hour from the airport to wherever you're going, plus the time spent in any layovers: T_air = (2 to 4) + d_miles/400 + t_layover hours.
For driving, give yourself an hour for every 60 miles, then add 20% to include rest stops, possible traffic, and other unforeseen delays: T_drive = d_miles/50.
Rail's about the same, but drop the 1.2 and add in transportation/transfer time (significantly less than for flying, because rail stations are usually more conveniently located, and the Gestapo isn't in full force yet): T_rail = d_miles/60 + t_extra.
For high-speed rail, replace the 60 with 200: T_hsr = d_miles/200 + t_extra
At least those are the formulas I've come up with...
The train is so much more convenient too....if for no other reason then you don't have all those crazy fare rules and such, and can easily exchange a ticket for another departure, and don't even have to worry about getting "bumped" (worst that can happen is you don't get a seat if the train is overbooked, which i've only witnessed on an Acela once).
NY-Washington, Acela Express beats all other options, unless you're going to be in the Virginia suburbs and then flying might be a better option. Or if you have an early appointment in DC (anything before 9:30 really), Amtrak schedules just don't get you there in time.
NY-Boston, flying is usually a bit faster than the train but the time difference is close enough that personal preference more than makes up for it.
Travel from NY to the intermediate cities along the NEC for me is always by train. I do find it annoying that the car rental options at most of the NEC rail stations are extremely limited. It's pretty annoying to go from NY-Baltimore in 2 hours, only to spend an hour in Balto getting to a rental facility and getting a car!!
CG
The sad thing is that there are lots of other cities in the U.S. that are close enough for convenient rail service, but the srevice just doesn't exist. There should be hourly trains leaving Chicago for Detroit, and Milwaukee, and Indianapolis, and at least three or four daily trains to St. Louis and Minneapolis. Florida's cities are also close enough for train trips, if good service existed. Other clusters of cities suitable for train trips abound.
I guess the only non-NEC corridor where you can hop an intercity train anytime you need to is the Los Angeles-San Diego run on the Surfliner. That service is very convenient.
Mark
I actually had a quick discussion with someone the other day about this. We could easily service all the metro area's and we have more people going intercity on the highways here than some highways serving some metro's.
He also said that for less money than the HSR plan they could buy the CSX A line, double track it and run at 110mph. Even that works for me. But I think there would need to be a triple track, there's mad csx trains running there.
CG
I certainly hope so. I wish Southwest Airlines could somehow be brought in on this one. They know how to run a transportation business better than most companies out there. If they lobbied to get HSR stations at Love Field in Dallas and Houston Hobby, they'd have a real selling point for all those passengers from smaller cities and towns in East Texas who normally have to drive to Dallas or Houston to catch flights.
Mark the Broken Record
What would prevent people from taking HSR between Dallas and Houston? That would cut right into WN's core business, I hardly see them supporting the idea.
It's a radical idea, but Southwest didn't get where they are by thinking inside the box.
Mark
There are two intercity trains operating out of Chicago: The South Shore Line (last of the original interurbans) runs 19 trains to South Bend, IN from 6:10 AM to 12:45 AM. Amtrak runs 7 trains (almost every two hours) to Milwaukee from 6 AM to 8 PM. And that's not even counting the Metra trains to Kenosha -- which once ran to Milwaukee. (Word is WiDOT may reactivate it around 2008.)
Sure, there should be more trains to Milwaukee. But the Twin Cities is not going to be a possibility soon. The rails that way need serious work. And with Pawlenty as governor and that jerk Krinkie in the legislature, no way will Minnesota step up to the plate. Too bad since the MWRRI study said that route would turn the most profit and do it the fastest. Kinda makes me wish CN or BNSF would do it.
Actually, unless you get a flight into/out of Dulles, and are going to Loudon or Western Fairfax/Western Prince William COunties, then the differences between getting to Union Station and Reagan National are almost negligible.
But this isn't an inherent weakness of rail, it's a matter of how we've chosen to execture our passenger rail system vs. how we've chosen to build our passenger aviation system.
But that said, I don't think it should be a question of air vs. rail. A sane transportation system would integrate the two so trips under a certain length would be by rail, while longer trips might be air or even a combination of air and rail.
For example, in my perfect transportation world, a trip from New York to Los Angeles would be by air, no two ways about it. A trip from Philadelphia to Pittsburgh would be by rail, taking less than two hours given a real HSR system. Meanwhile, a trip from say, New York to San Antonio might be a combination of a flight from JFK to Dallas followed by a train trip departing from DFW to take you the rest of the way to San Antonio.
A one-size-fits-all system on aviation-only or rail-only just doesn't work. Rail-only is too slow for long trips, while aviation-only is too much hassle for short trips and has led to extremely crowded skies and airport congestion.
It is my fear that airlines will see an integrated air-rail system as a threat to their dominance. This is why I think the law needs to be changed so that airlines can compete in the passenger rail business. (I think an airline offered HSR service for short routes would have a competitive advantage over an airline that made you ride in cropduster commuter planes.) Richard Branson already wants in.
Mark
I agree. I like to think of myself when i'm planning a trip. Drive, greyhound, air, rail. WHat's the most cost efficient/fastest duration ratio.
If there were HSR from philly to pitt, why would anyone be driving? A lot still would, but the rails would be tempting for that trip, especially with turnpike tolls adding driving costs. Flying? Some people fly insanly short distances, but unless you're going to a hub, it's pricey.
Tampa to Charlotte:
Looks like 80 bucks amtrak(2 trains),
somewhere at $220 driving(including rental)
300 dollars flying
Driving and amtrak is always the same timing almost, 16 hours(driving is probably closer to 14 or 12) and flying is 1 hour 35 minutes.
How much is you're time worth?
Time in the air, yes. But figure the time from origin to destination - not city to city. In the example I cited earlier, beginning at my home in Bunn, North Carolina and ending at the house I own in Eatontown, New Jersey (we'll skip the added complication of getting to my office, since it doesn't materially affect the comparison), it takes about 8.5 hours driving at about the speed limit (assuming I don't stop for lunch with one of my children in northern Virginia), 7.5 hours if my wife is driving, 8.0 hours if I fly out of Newark (longer if I go via Philadelphia), and 10.0 hours via train.
Then you add the toll that flying takes on one's sanity, and... guess which method wins?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Sounds like your wife has a lead foot :)
Let's put it this way... it's a good thing she has a V-6 and not a V-8 in her Mustang convertible :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm glad somebody is!
: )
I usually look at several travel options and make my choices for a variety of reasons. I have to travel a lot for work, and I usually end up choosing to fly, not because I like it better, but often because it's the only option. In November I'm going to Indianapolis, and I plan to take a train. The ride will be long, and the arrival/departure times are weird, but I'm flying three times in a month's time this summer, and I'm just about airported out. Sometimes I'm willing to sacrifice my time to spare myself stress. The other reason I want to take the train is because I usually fly Delta or American. Delta would mean flying to Cincinnati, then taking a connecting flight for the distance of 116 miles. Alternately, American would have flown me through O'Hare and an equally absurd connecting flight. I would like to be able to make either of these short connections from either CVG or ORD in Indianapolis by HSR, or even slow regular Amtrak, but the arrival departure times were nowhere near practical.
I'm not sure what all this means. I think it means we need better rail service. We need HSR, but even if we don't get HSR we need the slow trains we already have to run at sensible times of day...none of this business of one train per day your train leaving at 1:00 AM and arriving at 4:00 AM. We need faster trains, we need more trains, we need trains that run at sensible hours, and we need them to be integrated into the passenger aviation system so that they will be attractive options for passengers to use, and can fulfil the roles that trains fulfil best without having to compete with air for the trips that aviation does best.
Mark
Thanks for the tip!
I found a whole lot about the people mover doing just that. It's not far from where I'll be. My camera will be with me!
Mark
You should look into flying ATA as they have a hub in IND.
Mark
Last Sunday, I boarded a NJ Transit train from the Hoboken Station going to Lyons New Jersey with my bicycle. It was empty. There must have been about 50 passengers who boarded the train during the entire trip.
I found out a horrible truth. Those living in the burbs do no use transit during the weekends and many lines run empty. I had a pleasant ride that morning having the car all to myself. Unbelievable.
The only way you're ever going to have more trains is to get more people to use the system. Otherwise, there is no use spending money on faster cars with better service if the trains are empty.
Lines to Hoboken may run empty. But you'll have a hard time finding an empty MNCR train on a weekend. You may even have a hard time finding a seat on occasion.
But even many post-70s suburbs use the train a lot on weekends. Service to Poughkeepsie and Southeast (and probably also to equally far out places on LI) is much better on weekends than it was in 1970 - because the demand is there.
I think the problem with some NJT runs NJT is Hoboken. Suburbanites will take a train occasionally to Penn or GCT, but Hoboken is like another planet.
Post 70's I mean like post 80's or 90s, with subdivision sprawl and being 1 or 2 miles from the streets. In any other city in te county i doubt there'd be many ppl on the trains. The LRT would be an exception except they service real city spots.
LIRR Ronkonkoma trains often are SRO on the weekends. Montauk and Pt. Jefferson weekend trains can be quite busy too.
Of course, it's a chicken-and-egg type of scenario: you won't get convenient trains unless people ride them, but people won't ride trains unless they're convenient. We need the boldness and confidence to initiate decent services without succumbing to the so-called reasoning that if no one rides the 3:00 AM train, surely no will will ride one that leaves at 9:00 AM. Initiate decent intercity services and people will gladly give up traffic jams and airport hassle on those trips (less than 500 miles or so) for which rail is best suited.
Mark
Exactly. Plus the airline that has codesharing with the rail carrier has a competitive advantage oveer those that don't. For example, if Southwest would support the Texas Triangle, and offer codesharing with the rail carrier, I think a lot of ppeople in the smaller towns and cities of east Texas would take the train to a Southwest plane instead of driving to DFW for Delta flight or Houston for a Continiental flight.
Mark
Too bad 629 doesn't make that trip.
It would be nice... but think of poor Ted... I love 629, but for a trip that long she'd need a mechanic riding shotgun.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The LIRR from Ronkonkoma to Penn Station is just about 50 miles. I'd call most Ronkonkoma riders stretch commuters under this definition because almost all of them travel a few miles at least to get to the station.
* The majority of stretch commuters are male; females make only 16 percent of stretch commuting trips.
Not really true of Ronkonkoma, which has a fairly substantial female percentage even though there's a male majority. The gender balance varies from train to train - the earlier in the rush hour, the more males - but if I had to hazard a guess I'd say women are about 35-40% of the ridership.
Interestingly, the stations at Central Islip and Brentwood, which come pretty close to the stretch commuting 50-mile mark, appear to have a predominately female ridership during rush hour.
* Households with an annual income of at least $50,000 make three out of five stretch commuting trips.
Given the high level of Manhattan salaries, the high cost of living in Long Island, and last but not least the price of LIRR monthlies, I'd say the percentage at Ronkonkoma with incomes over that level is probably 90+.
* Two out of five stretch commuters start in rural areas.[sounds like the start of sprawl to me. I guess that's how they count those developments in the middle of pastures that make no sense]
The area around Ronkonkoma is suburban rather than rural, but I've heard that some riders come from semi-rural areas farther east such as Manorville and Shoreham.
Many people who live along the Ronkonkoma-Greenport line drive to Ronkomkoma rather than take the inconvenient shuttle. The fact that the last evening Greenport train leaves Penn at 5:41 limits its usefulness to many people - I can take the shuttle (to Medford) only because my job hours are stable and I'm not too far from Penn on the 1/9.
I would doubt, however, that many people who drive all the way from Greenport, that's really pushing things.
I am a stretch commuter (though I didn't know I was until today!) - my regular train trip is 60 miles and the door-to-door distance from my house to my office is about 65 miles. It is also a counter-flow trip (away from London in the morning, towards London in the evening), which is a good idea, as the trains are not crowded!
That all depends. In truly rural areas commutes can be very long just because distyances between towns are so great. When my sister lived in western Colorado she commuted 90 miles every day from Montrose to Grand Junction. Most of that ride was through tractless desert and mountain, not sprawl. My parents live in Mississippi and commute 77 miles to Jackson to work, though thery have an apartment there so they pomly have to make the circuit once each week.
Mark
All that in 3 sentences.
Mark
So with that nasty highway, mixed with gas prices doubling, I didn't do that for long, so I may not count as much.
But during the 54 mile commute, i avoided the toll roads going home and took through streets, 90-120 minutes every night driving :)
BTW, When I hear "i-4" it's like marty mcfly hearing "chicken".
Does she work a 40-hour week? University teachers usually have fewer hours than most people.
So she works 45 hours per week at her regular job, 20 hours per week at the consulting job, AND spends 25 hours per week commuting? That just boggles the mind. What does her fmaily think of this (if they can remember her name)?
Of course, that's just classroom hours. I have to spend a lot of time behind the scenes to make those classroom hours effective. Fortunately, I can do much of that work on the subway. I have a long commute (I leave home around 7:15 to make it to a 9:10 class, but that includes a half-hour cushion), but for the 45 minutes on the B train I'm at least as productive as I'd be at my desk (since I don't have access to SubTalk on the B train).
That's probably close to a national record for commuting time within a city's limits. About the only possible rivals might be some multi-bus journeys in Los Angeles.
Now, what is the longest possible commute not involving air travel or Amtrak? Possibly something like bus or driving to some LIRR station in Suffolk, to NY Penn, from there via NJ transit to Trenton, then SEPTA to Philly, then a Philly bus to the destination.
But for an 11-mile (IIRC) gap in Delaware and Maryland, you can ride commuter trains (and the NYC subway) from New London, Connecticut to Fredricksburg, Virginia: Shore Line East New London to New Haven, Metro-North New Haven to Grand Central, subway Grand Central to Penn Station, NJTransit Penn Station to Trenton, SEPTA Trenton to Newark, DE (change in Philadelphia), then the gap from Newark to Perryville, MD, MARC Perryville to DC Union Station, VRE DC Union Station to Fredrickburg.
Gap notwithstanding, I'm not sure if it could be done in a single day.
As for that little gap in Maryland, I thought about taking a bicycle to cover that. I'd have to find out the bicycle policies of the various transit agencies, of course.
Mark
If you take a folding bike there won't be any problems. Providing you have cover, I've been able to Boad Amtrack, Septa, NJ Transit, MetroNorth, LIRR etc.
LRTA bus to the MBTA commuter station.
MBTA commuter rail to Boston's North Station.
The T to Orange Line to Downtown Crossing
The T Red Line to South Station.
MBTA commuter rail to Providence, RI.
RIPTA city bus to the ferry dock.
Ferry to Block island.
Ferry to Montauk, Long Island.
LIRR to Penn Station.
NJT commuter rail to Trenton.
SEPTA R7 commuter rail to 30th Street Station.
SEPTA R2 commuter rail to Wilmington, Delaware.
DART First State bus route 301 to your job in Dover.
By which time you're not only twelve hours late for work, but you just missed the last return bus.
Mark
We'll keep the light on for you :)
In the UK some people do very long train commutes into London: I commuted from Nottingham to London (125 miles) at one time, and there were about 30 of us doing that daily on the same train - you get to know the familiar faces. Hundreds do so from Leicester (100 miles). It's very expensive, but the time isn't bad, especially if you work near the Kings Cross/St Pancras area.
About 80 miles.
"About 80 miles."
O.K., so that's longer in distance than my commute of about 65 miles in the UK.
I don't blame her. Tenure is something you don't give up easily. Think about it. In academia you have a one-time, all-or-nothing performance review, and if you pass it and get tenure, you're their for life, and you almost have to kill someone before your job is threatened. If you have that kind of job security you don't give it up lightly. If she is crazy, its for choosing to live so far away from her job, not for holding on to it.
Mark
To recap:
1) Tens of billions of dollars
2) Implement martial law
I like option three of adding a penny to the gas tax. But will there be any benefit of converting the standards of that line?
At the most, I could see adding an additional track connection somewhere besides Queensborough Plaza to allow an A-Division track to switch over to B-Division tracks.
Guys, where do you think such a connection might be added?
i. Between the 1 and the A via 207th St. Yard
ii. Between the 4 and the D via Concourse Yard
iii. Between the 3 and the L at Junius/Livonia (though the track has no third rail)
iv. Between the 7 and the N/W at Queensboro Plaza (the only connection not using yard tracks or requiring a diesel locomotive)
Here are the simplest additional A/B division connections I see...
1. Electrifying the track connecting the 3 and the L at Junius/Livonia - no new trackage needed, only a third rail.
2. On Flatbush Ave the B/Q and 2/3 run side-by-side - add switches there. This is between Bergen and Grand Army Plaza on the IRT, and near 7th Ave on the BMT
3. When the 7 is extended to Javits, include a turnoff to the 8th Ave line, connecting to the lower level of 42nd. This should be pretty easy since the new 7 trackage will plow straight through the 8th Ave lower level - add a turnoff track (and reinstall any tracks that may have been lifted).
4. For additional flexibility, it would also make sense to add connection between the E and the J around Sutphin Blvd.
5. And, to set off the old interdepartmental battle royale, switches between the 6th Ave local tracks and PATH. Yeah, I know, not in a million years. Maybe in a billion though :)
But then the entire subway system would need FRA compliance.
-Chris
1. The signalling systems are different (though that, at least theoretically, is a non-problem if employees know both systems, and the systems could always be upgraded to be compatible).
2. Track gauge (width) is the same - no problem there.
Problems (in increasing order of difficulty):
3. The platform edges would need to be cut back about 6-10 inches, since the BMT/IND cars are about 14 inches wider.
4. In some places tunnels would need to be widened, particularly in narrow clearance areas (e.g. the Steinway tubes, or anywhere where there is a red and white striped bar on the wall), and around turns. Using shorter cars (i.e. BMT/IND width but shorter in length, with trucks closer together and closer to the car ends) would help somewhat in this regard.
5. Some of the turning radii are too narrow - these tracks would need to be re-laid in order to handle the wider, longer cars (though again, using shorter cars, with trucks closer together, would help)
Except that the BMT/IND/SIR cars are 14 inches wider and thus hold more people (and it's easier to maneuver around in a packed car since there's more room between the legs of the people sitting). It makes better sense to leave them "as is;" with the IRT (and PATH, which runs IRT-sized equipment) we're stuck with what history bequeathed us.
It's the car widths that are most important, though car length plays a role in clearances around turns. IRT cars are all 51' long (3 doors per car side, while BMT/IND cars are either 60' (R32,38,40,42,143) or 75' (R44,46,68) long, both with 4 doors per car side. The 75' cars can't run on the Eastern Division (J/M/Z/L) because of clearance issues (though Queens Blvd and the Southern Division have no problem). As for overall train lengths:
IRT: On the mainline 10x51' = 510 feet. On the 7 it's 11x51' = 565 ft. The Shuttle runs either 3 or 4 51' cars = 153' or 204'.
BMT/IND: can be 10x60' or 8x75' = 600 ft, 8x60' = 480 ft, or 4x75' = 300 ft. (The R110B's, which aren't used for revenue service, are each 67' long, in a consist of 9x67' = 596 ft).
The overall train lengths are set mainly by (1) passenger load demands, and (2) available platform length, and can either be a smaller number of longer cars, or a larger number of smaller cars. The latter needs less clearance around turns, and usually provides more doors for entry/exit, though the former is more efficient space-wise.
IRT: 1 car=51.333 ft.
3 cars=154 ft,
4 cars=205.333 ft,
5 cars=256.667 ft.
10 cars=513.33 feet,
11 cars=564.667 feet,
BMT/IND: 1 car=60.5 ft. or 75 ft.
10*60.5 = 605, 8*75 = 600
8*60.5 = 484, 6*75 = 450
6*60.5 = 363, 4*75 = 300
4*60.5 = 242
3*60.5 = 181.5
2*75 = 150
R110B: 1 car = 67.29167 (67' 3.5")
3 cars = 201.875
9 cars = 605.625
Well the trippers are on different sides, but that could be mitigated by installing trip cocks on both sides of all cars (less expensive than converting all the trippers).
But who needs trippers - just tell em not to make any mistakes :)
However, for the record, most of the IRT is built to IND/BMT specs. The only exceptions are the Contract One and Two lines and the Steinway Tubes than ban the IRT to smaller equipment.
The IRT lines that were built under the dual contracts actually were built to be able to handle the BMT sized equipment. They are:
-The Lexington Line north of Grand Central
-The West Side IRT south of Times Square (including Times Square, but excluding the South Ferry loop)
-All the Bronx Els except the West Farms El south of East 180th St
-The Brooklyn IRT east of Atlantic Avenue (including both the Livonia El, and the Flatbush line).
-The Clark St Tunnel from Manhattan to where it joins the Joralaman tunnel route.
-The entire 7 line in Queens, excluding the Steinway tubes.
So the following lines are the lines that banish the IRT to skinny cars, relatively a small part of the whole IRT:
-The Lexington Line south of Grand Central, including the South Ferry Loop (which originally belonged to the Lexington Line, not the West Side line).
-The West Side 1 Line north of Times Square, excluding TS.
-The 42 St Shuttle.
-The Joralhamen Tunnel to Atlantic Ave.
-The Steinway Tubes on the 7.
-The 2/3 Line from 96th St to Lenox and East 180th St.
Everything Else on the IRT is built to IND/BMT specs, and could technically carry 60 foot car. Of course the platforms would have to be shaved, and I'm sure their have been some encumbrances built since then (signal houses and the like), but the tunnels themselves are built to allow BMT sized cars to go through (possibly the length of a BMT standard which was 67 feet, but certainly a 60 foot car).
The US standard railroad gauge (distance between the rails) is 4 feet, 8.5 inches. That's an exceedingly odd number.
Why was that gauge used?
Because that's the way they built them in England, and English expatriates built the US Railroads.
Why did the English build them like that?
Because the first rail lines were built by the same people who built the pre-railroad tramways, and that's the gauge they used.
Why did "they" use that gauge then?
Because the people who built the tramways used the same jigs and tools that they used for building wagons, which used that wheel spacing.
Okay! Why did the wagons have that particular odd wheel spacing?
Well, if they tried to use any other spacing, the wagon wheels would break on some of the old, long distance roads in England, because that's the spacing of the wheel ruts.
So who built those old rutted roads?
Imperial Rome built the first long distance roads in Europe (and England) for their legions. The roads have been used ever since.
And the ruts in the roads?
Roman war chariots formed the initial ruts, which everyone else had to match for fear of destroying their wagon wheels. Since the chariots were made for Imperial Rome, they were all alike in the matter of wheel spacing.
The United States standard railroad gauge of 4 feet, 8.5 inches is derived from the original specifications for an Imperial Roman war chariot. And bureaucracies live forever. So the next time you are handed a specification and wonder what horse's ass came up with it, you may be exactly right, because the Imperial Roman war chariots were made just wide enough to accommodate the back ends of two war horses.
... and you thought being a HORSE'S ASS wasn't important!
Only place where that WASN'T the standard gauge is those small streetcar lines where they wanted to be SURE trains couldn't sneak onto them in the dead of night and haul freight through. (grin)
;)
Railfan Photos and Links
I hope to join you again in the near future!
til next time
Did anybody see this? Where was this?
Awesome concept, even awesomer photos!
Ok I can't keep up the joke lol.
Nice pics, and what was the G train doing there?
The new station looks good.
Is that arm piece high maintenance?
>>and you want me to go to "Branford" to hang with you guys and "boring" 6688....
What happened to "Boys Just Wanna Have Fun?" I guess this means we'll see less of you now.
-Stef
You should seethe slobs that show up out here in California for bus and train fan meets....obviously they know nothing of what the word "clean" means. They all look like they're been sleeping in the subway for a month with the same clothes on. (Oh, and too many of the ones out here are in the 350 pound range!!)
Compliments to everyone in the photo!!
I take exception to that! :)
How else do you get those great shots of midnight G/O's that nobody knows about?
The secret is, between 2 and 5 AM all the lines run Redbirds and Arnines.... they've got them hidden away in the lower level of Coney Island yard. Oh, you didn't know about the LOWER LEVEL of Coney Island yard?
:)
I did manage to watch some of the trip on TV:
And from that thing on the thing at Coney Island:
More PHOTOS here.
Your pal,
Fred
Your pal,
Fred
til next time
NOTE: This is a video, you need to download Quicktime 6.0 before viewing. If you already have Quicktime 6.0 downloaded, then enjoy.
j/k
Looks like good times
-Broadway Buffer
-Broadway Buffer
I get "the video may not play properly as the required compressors could not be found" as a message.
Do I have to adjust something on my computer?
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=744546
Download your card's software update and it should also come with updated video codecs.
-Shots all around the Coney Island perimeter from Dena's Wonder Wheel as I took a couple of spins during lunch.
-The Arnines and the BU cars race side by side on the Culver.
-The "camera" face off...us fighting inside #1575 with cameras of all things, what a riot.
MOD/BU trip on 7/25.
Trip report will follow soon.
Your image of Bruno and Pataki as D'Amato robots is not grounded in reality. D'Amato is not Boss Tweed.
The term "boss" indicates that he/she has no equal. NY State is full of politicians or ex-politicians who exploit their power/connections/associations for personal benefit.
wayne
I don't why my friend mentioned this to him (other than being a smartass) but Mr. Cuomo suddenly had to be somewhere.
Frank Sinatra in an early '90s interview "I tell ya I don know them guys....".
BTW: Call in a request to a local radio station and request "Light My Fire" for 'ol Joe Bruno.
-Lino
(attention, wrong wingers, Padre Guido was a DEMOCRAT!) (ANd a gasbag, grin)
You are correct. I've worked in Republican politics, specifically at the time that George Pataki became governor.
At this time, whatever power in the Republican Party that D'Amato retains is limited to the Long Island.
Also, I wouldn't lend much credibility to anyone who uses childish variations of politicians last names.
Yet, had I not chosen to run for public office myself, there might have been only one name on the ballot for State Assembly on Election Day - the incumbent. Last time there was the incumbent and a Republican who no one around here wants to vote for -- the incumbent got 80 percent of the vote. This time there will be no Republican. He didn't even face a challenger in the Democratic Primary, and I don't think he will this year either. This is democracy in the United States?
I don't think Jim Brennan is the worst in Albany; he seems to be an honest and decent guy. But how many people around the state are saying that about their state legislature? And look at the results. He goes along with this garbage, after all. If he can't rebel against them, I can rebel against him.
That's normal for state/local politics in New York. Sometimes (especially for judges) you'll see one candidate on all party lines , Republican, Democrat, Right to Life, Conservative, Liberal, Working Families, etc. Usually I find myself stunned that one person could please all of thise diverse factions, but then reality sets in and I understand the insider/deal making process which deprives me of true choice.
I wish you luck. You haven't got a prayer, but I hope you make big waves.
We're still first not second, though the federal government is closing in. I wish we could at least be tied for last, like our credit rating.
We gots PROs here ... Heh.
Baltimore is even worse. We haven't had a Republican on the City Council since 1943 and the last Republican Mayor was Teddy McKelden in the early 1960's. He was a liberal Republican, so the Dems loved him.
BTW, our two GOP Governors got elected because the Democatic candidate was a complete political doofus. That usually doesn't happen.
Our Boy Mayor, Martin O'Malley, will speak at the DEM Convention in Beantown. He's a rising star in the Maryland Democatic party, and he also fronts an Irish Rock Band (O'Malley's March).
Being a political junkie is fun, though. I have enough fun running in the BSM Trustee election every three years. I've been a Trustee for a long time. I guess the membership likes me.
But then, look at how many actually turn up to vote. I'm a firm believer in "if you didn't vote, then tough noogies" ... and as far as Unca Honest Al goes - I never mentioned "Wedtech" or any of his FEDERAL scandals ... I found the "Boss Tweed" bit amusing. Even Boss Tweed didn't get his hands in the Washington DC cookie jar. :)
My political knowledge, such that it is, is two months old. But one thing I have learned is that voter turnout is much higher than reported -- and voter registration much lower.
As I walk around looking for voters to talk to, I find that a large share of them -- especially the young -- have moved. We all moved around more when were young, after all. They are still recorded as registered voters, and when they don't vote, it depresses the presumed percent of registered voters who voted. Meanwhile, their replacements in the apartment are not registered.
The Board of Elections purges the rolls by sending a postcard every year. If it comes back from the Post Office as moved, the rolls are purged. But in Brooklyns 2-4 family homes, you don't have a separate mailbox for every apartment, just one mailslot, from which the landlord hands out the mail. And if a person has moved, the landlord presumably forwards it themself or throws it out. Guess what happens to the BOE postcard?
It's similar to census problem, when it was missing 300,000 housing units. Even if we had diligent servants of democracy, this will be getting harder. If I were young and single, I'd have a box in a mailbox store, a cell phone, and move from sublet to sublet around the neighborhood. No need to formally change an address, or re-install a fixed phone connection. Just box up your 20 possessions and go.
So I got myself 500 voter registration forms. Already distributed three.
The UN currently takes the cake. It normally is simply ineffectual, but when it actually tries to do something, like the Iraqi food for oil program, it gets wrapped up in corruption. Genocide? Lets look the other way so the French can make some money. At least no American politician is receiving kickbacks to allow genocide.
til next time
til next time
Which one? Jr. or Sr.?
Sorry, Bob....I couldn't resist! ;-D
#3 West End Jeff
-Chris
You look a lot like a young Babe Ruth.
I see that resemblance too. My advise to stay away from Cigars and hookers.
And Fenway Park!
-Chris
I am wearing the old-school Milwaukee Brewers baseball hat.
Adam
Chuck Greene
There were 4 Mets fans in that photo!
Yellow hat: Brian Weinberg (Clown Boy)
Left end, blue jeans, blue jacket, brown sneakers: John Villanueva (Bombardier)
Blue shirt, big hairdo: Lincoln McMahon (LincolN)
BTW: Hey, what are you doing here, Mr. Red Sox Fan (see center of pic)!? Get off the Yankees' turf (kidding)! :-P
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
What are they for ?
You had asked. I answered. And you presume correctly.
Note: I mainly used the tripod on the MOD train, where I am reasonably safe from the police. And many MOD riders have used tripods on the platforms over the last year and I have not heard of anyone getting in trouble for it.
(That is, until we see all the photos of him standing in the doorwaysgateways filming with the help of the tripod. Ah, but perhaps the camera was turned off!)
I missed the consist by 30 SECONDS, as I watched helplessly leaving 59/CC from an A train I was on. So I ran back to Church Ave to catch up with the crew and and went ahead to Beverley Road for a couple of photos. Jehuty tells Bombardies of a perfect spot to take photos there, after both trains passed by. We also saw the C/R position monitors not working. :-\ I caught up at OP and we went to Stllwell for a well deserved 90 minute lunch. I sneaked over to Wonder Wheel for some really AWESOME photos there. After lunch, we met up at the F line..eh no; make that the G line platform, for some group photos. The horns of the BU cars alerted us and we boarded and took off. I used the graveyard station, 22nd Ave-BP for what I witnessed and AWESOME display of IND and BU cars acing side by side. Before that happened, a REDBIRD garbage train was running down the S/B side and stopped at every station for trash pickup, plenty of time for me to take many photos. I took that station, went to 18th Ave, back to Ave I, and finished up at Kings Highway. One the 3rd ru, a MOD customer or passer by, was on the street, taking a photo and waving at us. The cars joined back together as a confused person was waiting for a Manhattan-bound F train, I tried to help her. Wer also saw a lovely and exquisite female C/R on oe N/B G train who gave us a nice smile and waved at us. I also chatted with another C/R I knew from awhile ago, and in the process accidently bumped into a Subtalker standing on the platform. After our C/R told me of my mistake, I corrected myself. We ran down to CI yard, saw the 2 R16's inside the yard, sleeing peacefully, and MORE REDBIRDS too. After Ft. Hamilton photo, there was so much laughter from us, first the C/R was eyballing me (Brian will post the photos, WOW! ARE YOU READY FOR THIS?) This was some staredown we had. :-D The second event was the "duel of the cameras" as a buch of us were literally "shooting" at other Subtalkers at close range. Plenty of "bullet flashes" were flying all over #1575, it was mad fun. The trip ended at 6:15 at 59 and I went back to Brooklyn for these posts.
Subtalker List:
Sir. Rondald of McDonald
David of Broadway
MetsFan4552
T-Broadway West End
LincolN
Jehuty V.2
Thru Express
Boriqua
Fred G.
NJ Coast Express
ChooChoo Bob
WDobner
Flatbush41
Bombardier
Jared Magrid
Sonic McTails
RonDogg728
Amanda
Keystone Pete
Teddmann
Transit ChuckGreene
Harry P.
Flixible1979
Chris SINY_R143
SlantMan
Incognito
Thanks everyone, I had a great time. See you on the 14th.
til next time
Your pal,
Fred
Does anyone know when the N Sea Beach is due to return to Stillwell Avenue? Have a reference to a good article on same?
I tell you those Ironbirds were really horrible tonight. And the Cyclones rocked in the first 2 innings. And it was nice and cool out. You picked a great night to go to a game.
-Broadway Buffer
Coney Island just a shell of what it was even in the sixties, but with this sold-out gem of a ballpark and the new Coney Island train station to be fully open next year, things are looking up.
Coney Island just a shell of what it was even in the sixties, but with this sold-out gem of a ballpark and the new Coney Island train station to be fully open next year, things are looking up.
wayne
Interesting - there was an article in yesterday's Times about the ballpark and the future of Coney Island .. sorry, don't have a link to it online right now.
--Mark
-Broadway Buffer
Don't know if it was considered even for a minute, or if there would have been enough room for a big league ballpark, but I think that the Mets would have been better off it they had moved to Coney Island themselves. Shea's location, by LGA's screeching runways, in a "neighborhood" without stores, restaurants or ( my favorite ) bars, is just awful. Coney Island, with its four major subway lines and boardwalk, could have been much, much better.
-Broadway Buffer
(Although in this case I happen to agree with him.)
-Broadway Buffer
-James aka Broadway Buffer
-James
But this does not condone you from starting a racially offensive title. As one who grew up in the streets of Flatbush, I saw a neighborhood change from mixed Jewish families to mostly West Indian countries. Either way, I'm still proud of my 'hood and the people I see and interact with, color makes no difference to me.
-James
-James aka Broadway Buffer
Get ride of em'the BUMMS....
BTW, wuts the status about the football stadium near Atlantic Center Mall?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2252448117
The train about to go into the tunnel for 59th Street (4th Avenue that is).
Again...
See ya at 207th Street (with the BMTman lookalike riding along in the back...)
Killing time at 207th...
Not too shabby!
Until next time...
The End!, comments?
Click on the links to access the albums.
17 July 2004 MOD Trip Pictures--Miscellaneous Pictures
17 July 2004 MOD Trip Pictures--Broad Channel Pictures
17 July 2004 MOD Trip Pictures--Pictures taken at 59th--CC
17 July 2004 MOD Trip Pictures--Pictures taken at 80th St-Boyd Av.
17 July 2004 MOD Trip Pictures-Rockaway Park Pictures
17 July 2004 MOD Trip Pictures-Mott Av-Far Rockaway Pictures
17 July 2004 MOD Trip Pictures-Pictures taken inside the gate cars
Koi
Thanks.
BTW, it was nice finally meeting you on Sunday.
Bob
My original post said that a friend took the yard and track pictures. I'm a good girl, don't worry.
More photos to come later!
Second, look at the R timetable on the MTA website. When, outside of midnights, does the R run on a 15-or-20-minute headway (and the R doesn't serve Court Street or Lawrence Street midnights anyway, so I know that can't be what is meant)?
Third, once the train shows up, is it jammed to the doors? NO!
So, in summary, yes, there's less service through the Montague Street Tunnel middays and weekends than there was before all four tracks on the Manhattan Bridge were available. However, I don't think anybody would disagree that the amount of service provided is adequate given the number of people riding.
David
That is what the schedule says. When the February 2004 changes came in, some enhancement of the R frequency was promised to take account the loss of the N and W through the Montague tunnel, but there was scepticism about that on this board. Is there evidence that the scheduled trips all run reliably?
Rush hours too, and no the cars are not overcrowded at any time, but since the waits are longer, the ride is longer. That is especially true coming home, since you have to pick the M or the R rather than catching the first one through.
That's why I think the Montigue might be a good interim choice for an Airtrain connection to Lower Manhattan, until ridership demonstrates that another tunnel is justified. More riders, more trains, more frequent.
I don't think so.
Wouldn't it make sense to replace the M with W then?
Arti
But then there would be no peak service south from Broad Street to Brooklyn at all.
Arti
West End passengers bound for lower Manhattan prefer Nassau over Broadway. There's no reason not to grant them their preference.
Good question. I boarded a W train today, at 5:05pm, and took it Downtown to City Hall. Very light passenger load. I was in the middle of the train, and I'd estimate that a third of the seats were available. I hope that it gets packed on the way to Astoria.
My guess is that if it ran to Brooklyn, it would have had more passengers.
The rationale of the W is this. (1) Usage of the Sea Beach line doesn't justify more frequency on the N, but Astoria needs more trains than the N frequency. (2) Broadway local needs more frequency than just the R. (3) In the daytime, Astoria needs direct service to downtown.
A number of services terminate in downtown Manhattan rather than crossing to Brooklyn, because there is more patronage in Manhattan than in Brooklyn (J/Z at Broad St; W at Whitehall; E at WTC; 1/9 at South Ferry; E at WTC; 5, most of the time, at Bowling Green). Some people here think that he MTA does this just to screw Brooklyn, but others may think that they fairly rationally try to match supply to demand. They have not got an infinite number of trains, or of staff; more trains going to places of less demand means fewer going to places with higher demand.
What a service improvement. Less choice, no significant service increase. Plenty of people ride the M from southern Brooklyn to lower Manhattan! Let's stop dismissing them.
I will say that delays on the R can be annoying, due to the need to squeeze the N & W thru the 60th St. tunnel with it. The Broadway BMT corridor is probably the worst line when it comes to evenly spaced service, both express & local service often bunched up.
Would shifting the R to 63rd street help that problem?
No. The N/W/R would still have to merge north of 34th St, there's no way a Broadway local can access the 63rd St. tracks north of 57th St and the reroute would deprive Queens Blvd IND riders access to stations and x-fers along 60th St.
Huh? There needs to be more service because enough service is already being provided? That doesn't make sense!
David
I'm sure the R is often delayed, but not enough to justify all the whining we hear in this thread.
Starting in the AM, weekday service leaving Continental Ave:
5:17
5:30
5:43
5:55
6:07
6:19
6:31
6:41
6:50
6:58
7:06
The every 6-8 minutes until:
8:39
8:48
8:58
Then every 10 minutes until:
14:28
14:36
14:46
14:56
15:04
15:10
15:20
15:28
Then every 7-9 minutes until:
16:45
16:51
16:59
17:06
17:13
17:18
17:25
17:33
17:42
17:52
18:00
18:08
18:13
18:25
18:31
18:41
18:49
18:58
19:06
19:14
19:22
19:30
19:39
19:49
19:59
20:08
20:19
20:29
20:39
20:52
21:02
Only one scheduled gap longer than 10 minutes exists on the entire schedule between trains leaving Continental Ave between 6:30 AM and 9 PM (a 13 minute gap between the 20:39 and the 20:52) exists. Your timetable is either out of date or incorrect, or you simply don't have one and are talking out of your @ss.
This is probably due to the line's route more than anything else. There is a merge into 60 St and into 57/7 an R train doesn't have any chance to speed up to make time. The curves into City Hall must be taken slow. Queens-bound there's the merge with the N north of Herald Sq.
There is also the expectation of more Brooklyn-bound service built on years of experience. While more service via Broadway local was required by Manhattan Br reconstruction, riders still expect that level of service. Over time, maybe expectations will change or maybe complaints will rise.
Ideally, W trains would serve downtown Brooklyn stations but this probably won't happen because there doesn't seem to be a terminal that could short-turn trains. The MTA obviously doesn't want to extend W service by adding more trains.
I agree that generally overcrowding isn't a problem. Maybe a combination of better scheduling and extending some W trains to Brooklyn when there is a gap in R service could solve the problem.
W Broadway Local
Astoria or City Hall/Court Street
W Broadway Local
Astoria - Lower Manhattan
BMT
Let's see:
- The need for an alternate service to compliment the N in Queens is incompatible with the needs of Brighton local riders in Brooklyn. To meet demands in Brooklyn, Queens would be swamped.
- Sending the R thru 63rd St deprives Queens Blvd riders access to the Lexington and 5th Ave stations on 60th St.
- The MTA is dead set against running any Brighton/tunnel service due to the merging delays it would cause. Brighton riders would be in an uproar losing their Broadway express service and B trains would get SWAMPED.
Why haven't people gotten that, within the constraints placed upon it by infrastructure, the current service plan is the best possible one when it comes to meeting ridership needs?
W Broadway Local
Astoria and Lower Manhattan
BMT
how many trains does the B/Q operate,and how many does the M OPERATE?
The M run 6-8 tph daily...The B about the same and the Q about 8-9...
so your telling me that the Brighton line cannot operate 17 trains on the local tracks during the rush hours,14 trains during off peak..? Dekalb would have trouble merging these trains at Atlantic ave?
the problem here is the system is full of peple who want to run it at a minimum....
No 4th ave Express at Dekalb,only locals
No Montague tunnel service to Brighton,might interfer with Manhattan Bridge trains...
whatever is easier for them,is best for us....thats what they are saying...
Dude Im not slamin on you,by the way...
All Brighton local service terminates at Stillwell Ave. Like Jamaica Center, this terminal's turning capacity is limited to significantly less than 17 TPH due to the placement of the crossover. It is this limitation which really eliminates the possibility of running 2 completely seperate routes during rush hours.
I wonder if Brighton Beach could handle more than Stillwell.
I do not believe that sending R service via 63 St deprives riders of transfers. Transfers are free between the 4/5/6/F/N/R/W currently in that area and under the proposed re-route transfers would be free between the 4/5/6/F/N/Q/R. 5 Av/59 St is not so far from other options available from Queens Blvd such as 6 Av/57 St and 5 Av/53 St.
Moreover backtracking at 57 St/7 Av to stay out of the rain or avoid a very short walk is both easy and possible unlike when the F was moved to 63 St from 53 St. That more extreme re-route was done primarily to relieve congestion as this re-route would.
While service to Astoria would probably increase under this re-route a reverse-peak express service could be implemented. Additionally the MTA would save on trainsets by using the W cars somewhere else. You seem to suggest the B.
I don't know how much more or less net switching delays would increase at DeKalb Av by sending the Q via Montague St versus having the current N/R/W dance under Broadway. But that comparison needs to be done because the other factors can't force one conclusion or the other.
Have you ever made that transfer? It's very inconvenient. It takes a very long time. It's better than nothing, but only barely.
Of the three routes between Queens Boulevard and Manhattan, 63rd Street is the least useful one. Only one service should run via 63rd.
The walk isn't so bad but the transfer passageways are. It clearly isn't ideal.
"Of the three routes between Queens Boulevard and Manhattan, 63rd Street is the least useful one. Only one service should run via 63rd."
Until and if ever SAS operates south of 63 St I agree with these statements. There's still a lot of congestion under Broadway however. Maybe this problem doesn't have a solution right now.
W Bwy
I'd have to think about it longer to find out the best way to do it, but I agree that there is more service needed along Montague.
-Broadway Buffer
-Broadway Buffer
-Broadway Buffer
-Broadway Buffer
Depends on your definition of "extremely deep". The deepest point in the Narrows under the V-N Bridge is 79 feet (about .25 mile east of the Staten Island tower). From that point, the harbor gets progressively shallower as you head into the Upper Bay and (amazingly enough) progressively deeper as you head out to the open ocean, about 8 miles away (past the straight line that connects Breezy point with Sandy Hook).
On this date in...
1917...The Bleecker Street/Broadway trolley makes its final run. It's Manhattan's last horse-drawn trolley, and is replaced by electrified streetcars and subways.
Peace,
ANDEE
Say what you will about the automobile, but I much prefer its exhaust to that of horse-drawn streetcars!
Mark
There's something romantic about horse-drawn streetcars or any form of non-motorized transportation. If the city brought back horse-drawn street cars, I can assure you there would be a line a block long just to ride including everyone one on this board. When you think about it, the cost to ride by horse in the city makes it unaffordable. I asked for a carriage ride through Central Park and nearly fainted when the driver told me the price.
You can't add automobile exhaust to your garden to improve the yield of your tomatoes and vegetables.
That depends on which component of the exhaust you're talking about. If you're talking about the NOX or the carbon monoxide, no your maters won't like that too much. But the CO2 a car puts out is wonderful for the vegetables.
And it gets better yet! That CO2 can also raise average global temperatures, allowing you to grow vegetables all year round in northern Manitoba. Aren't rising sea levels, coastal devastation, and the violent storms of wildly disturbed weather patterns a small price to pay for better gardening?
: )
Mark
David
:0)
Either way, they'll have to add track to handle the turn from the Lake Street elevated to the Wells Street track. But then train moves through Tower 18 will get even more insane.
But the train moves *will* be fun to watch!
I've always pronounced Bombardier (in my head) as an English word ("bombar-deer"), but the other day I heard the company mentioned on a radio news broadcast here in the UK, and the newscaster pronounced it in French fashion ("bombar-dee-ay"). I'm not sure whether the newscaster was being stupid (confusing the company with Alstom) or clever (thinking that Bombardier is based in French-speaking Canada).
Which is correct? Is the company in fact headquartered in French-speaking Canada, or in English-speaking Canada?
Your pal,
Fred
It’s not only English speakers (I think about Cockneys, but I’m sure everyone can find examples in their parts of the world…) who have slovenly speakers!
"...the Bombardier adventure began in a garage in rural Quebec. It is truly a story of passion, the passion of a man for technical innovation. Joseph-Armand Bombardier had a dream..."
So there we have it. It's pronounced in French, because the founder was a Quebecker.
Right, and hence they produce many products side by each and you can hear workers say "Trow me down the stairs - my toolbox!"
Your pal,
Frenchie
R-32.
I think they were joking though.
According to the following press release,
http://pressroom.dlr.co.uk/latest_news/details.asp?id=66
the DLR is set to expand, taking over Stratford to Canning town on the NLL, with the NLL closing from Canning Town to North Woolwich.
This is interesting because it shows that the current corporate divisions of railways in London are not quite as sacrosanct as some think. What other conversions might be useful?
With the NLL down to Stratford to Richmond, the concept of a full London orbital railway on one line now seems highly unlikely, instead the circle will have to be separate lines, which in many ways makes sense. How many people really want to travel all the way from Stratford to Richmond?
It should also be remembered that the through Richmond-North Woolwich service is a phenomenon of fairly recent times. Until Broad Street station closed, the NLL electrics ran Richmond-Broad Street, and for years there were no passenger services on the NLL east of Dalston Junction. Stratford-North Woolwich was served for many years only by steam trains from Palace Gates, latterly truncated (after the closure of the Palace Gates branch) to be DMUs from Tottenham Hale to North Wooolwich. Dalston Junction-Stratford-North Woolwich was electrified to take the extended NLL trains about ??25 years ago. I suspect the cost of electrifying it east of Stratford was never justifiable by any reasonable cot-benefit analysis. The increased services brough to the Docklands area by the DLR were justified only by the overall Docklands redevelopment, which wasn't even planned when the NLL extension to North Woolwich went in. The NLL should be continue to be viable with a fairly frequent Richmond-Stratford service.
I'm not sure the boundaries between the different rail empires in London were ever that sacrosanct. After all, large chunks of the Central and Northern Lines were once surface suburban rail, converted to tube under the 1935 plan. Moorgate-Finsbury Park via Drayton Park changed the other way, tube to national rail, in the 1970s. And as recently as the late 1990s, a couple of unremunerative national rail routes (Elmers End-Addiscombe and Wimbledon-west Croydon) were converted to light rail as part of the Croydon Tramlink, and are much more successful in that guise. In my opinion, Wimbledon-Sutton via St Helier should be similarly converted.
I knew of that conversion before riding the Tramlink, but even so, it was difficult to envision much of the Wimbledon - W. Croydon section as anything except light rail. It just didn't seem physically suited for conventional rail.
As I have said many times before, South London's transport problems will not be solved by breaking links with Central London (where most people want to go) and linking them to Croydon.
Wimbledon to West Croydon had no obvious means of being converted from an orbital route to a radial route, hence its Tramlink conversion, and it therefore did not infringe the above principle (although a Waterloo-Wimbledon-Mitcham Junction-Sutton-Wimbledon circle would have been infinitely more useful than any combination ever offered on these lines). Likewise, Elmers-End to Addiscombe had virtually no through trains except for depot journeys. These were both therefore relatively uncontroversial conversions.
Wimbledon-Sutton line goes through quite a densely built-up area with no alternative rail transport. It's badly used because the service provision is awful, thus encouraging road journeys to more attractive railheads such as Morden. Connecting to Northern/District Lines would give a faster and more attractive connection to Central London, at relatively little cost, and with little risk of overloading these lines.
Me: Elmers End to Addiscombe had only branch trains (latterly) precisely because it had no traffic! The people were on the Hayes branch, so it got the through service to London. Hardly anyone used Woodside and Addiscombe stations, even though it was theoretically a radial line. Its problem was that Addiscombe station was about a mile short of the centre of Croydon (which is the major employment centre of south London) so it didn't get any reverse commuters. Now as an LRT, it goes on-street into the town centre, and does get them.
Max: "Wimbledon-Sutton line goes through quite a densely built-up area with no alternative rail transport. It's badly used because the service provision is awful, thus encouraging road journeys to more attractive railheads such as Morden. Connecting to Northern/District Lines would give a faster and more attractive connection to Central London, at relatively little cost, and with little risk of overloading these lines."
Me: Again, the poor service (half-hourly even in the peak) is because of lack of traffic, not the other way round. The reasons for the poor use of this line go back to the political and business history of the 1920s. The line was actually designed to be as you describe, an extension of the District and Northern lines. The Southern Railway fought off this threat to its territory from the Undergound group, and was then obliged to build the line itself, but it has always been a failure. The travel pattern by bus (and latterly car, presumably) to Morden station was established from the start, because the Underground group put on connecting buses at lower fares for the bus-tube journey than the Southern charged for going by train into central London.
Of course the original plan would have been better. But it isn't going to happen now: no TfL plan to do it exists, and the investment required (particularly at Wimbledon) would be enormous. Nor is it necessarily sensible to extend all-stations tube lines further out into outer London, where commuters prefer fast trains from Sutton and Wimbledon to London.
So why not use this white elephant for something more useful - like, carrying people for local employment or shopping journeys into Sutton and Wimbledon? With LRT you could double the number of stations, thus giving more people stops near their homes, and deviate off the railway RoW on to streets here and there, to get closer to places where people actually want to go (which I believe is the TfL plan).
The report by FaberMaunsell concluded that three of the four extension proposals showed positive cost/benefit ratios. The exception was the ***Wimbledon to Sutton route***. Following this report, further internal work was carried out to assess the business case for each proposal, taking on board new Treasury ‘Green Book’ formulae and incorporating ‘Optimism Bias.
A decision was made to prioritise the rail based options for business case appraisal and in 2003, Steer Davies Gleave were commissioned to carry out a more detailed study of the Crystal Palace proposal. In addition, they were asked to ***re-examine the Wimbledon to Sutton proposal, but this time by considering the conversion of the rail alignment between those two points from heavy rail to tramway*** rather than the street based option. SDG are due to report their findings to TfL during 2004.
If there isn't a plan to 'Undergound' these lines, then there should be, especially if the Chelsea-Hackney were to be built. The two stations after Wimbledon are in very densely built areas. Underground services would speed up what is on offer too. Morden South to London Bridge would be faster by Northern Line than the BR equivalent service, likewise Wimbledon to Blackfriars via Fulham. Plus people would be less likely to need to change trains to get to their final destinations. Not having to change trains at a terminal makes up for a slow ride. Just look at ridership on competing lines in North London. Stations on the line are relatively close together in any case, and adding stations will slow down services without increasing the horizontal catchment of the line. Look on an OS map, and there are no obvious gaps requiring new stations, although one or two would benefit from being resited.
The transport problems of South London are not going to be solved by breaking links to Central London and adding them to Croydon.
A half-and-half, low-cost solution is possible. Extend the Northern Line over the southern half of the W-S line to Sutton, and convert Streatham-Tooting-Wimbledon-Morden South to LRT. This avoids the expensive works needed to link the District Line up to the Wimbledon-Sutton line at Wimbledon; the line from Tooting already links up to the right platforms in Wimbledon station. (You could also run through trams from Streatham to Croydon via Tooting, Wimbledon and Mitcham Junction stations, though I'm not sure you'd want to.) You'd need to provide some sort of tram termini at Streatham and at Morden South, but if there isn't room for them inside the stations they could go outside, like at Beckenham Junction. The link from Morden through the tube yards to Morden South isn't difficult. The major difficulty would be providing a pair of terminus platforms at Sutton station for the Northern Line trains; the station site is cramped.
There's room west of the bridge.
I predict that the Kingsway tram will be another case in point. The transport corridor that it serves has no alternative, and it will become overwhelmed with traffic. Better to reactivate the Aldwych branch, and extend to Waterloo and Euston.
The big problem is one of capacity into Waterloo on the slow lines. A second pair of slow lines is really needed in rush hour from Raynes Park inwards.
Certainly the District Line is slow. I don't think a simple plug the Wimbledon District into the Epsom, Chessington, and Sutton branches would be a very good idea. Were the Chelsea half of the Chelney line ever built, this would become an utterly reasonable alternative, as illustrated by the two all-stops routes from Victoria to Epsom:
00 Victoria
03 Battersea Pk
07 Clapham Jct
10 Wandsworth Cmn
12 Balham
20 Mitcham Jct
23 Hackbridge
26 Carshalton
30 Sutton
32 Cheam
35 Ewell E
39 Epsom
00 Victoria
02 Sloane Sq
05 King's Rd Chelsea
08 Parson's Green
10 Putney Bridge
12 East Putney
15 Southfields
17 Wimbledon Pk
20 Wimbledon
23 Raynes Pk
25 Motspur Pk
28 Worcester Pk
31 Stoneleigh
33 Ewell W
36 Epsom
Given that no-one can decide where to send the Western end of Crossrail, a suitable central alignment might be:
Parson's Green - King's Rd Chelsea - Sloane Sq - Victoria - Piccadilly Circus - Tottenham Ct Rd - Farringdon - Liverpool St
Promise the silly buggers at Canary Wharf branches to themselves and to Heathrow as a Phase II, then scrap it and let them promote a second line.
What would be the least stressful way of getting from East Croydon to Oxford Circus? Get on an already-packed train from East Croydon, stand to Victoria (calling at Clapham Junction) then fight your way down to the Victoria Line, where they may or may not let you in at all (how much does this add to the journey time? 15 minutes?)
No, get a seat on the Victoria Line at East Croydon. It might be slower, but there the ride is one-seat, and with the cross platform interchange at Stockwell, most of the West End and a lot of the City are in easy reach. What is the point of a fast journey if you lose it at the terminal?
I hate to think of what it must have been like pre-improvement. Last time I used that station was with a suitcase from the SB Northern Line to the Brighton side of the station - it was pure hell.
What would be the least stressful way of getting from East Croydon to Oxford Circus? Get on an already-packed train from East Croydon, stand to Victoria (calling at Clapham Junction) then fight your way down to the Victoria Line, where they may or may not let you in at all (how much does this add to the journey time? 15 minutes?)
No, get a seat on the Victoria Line at East Croydon. It might be slower, but there the ride is one-seat, and with the cross platform interchange at Stockwell, most of the West End and a lot of the City are in easy reach. What is the point of a fast journey if you lose it at the terminal?
Agreed. However, it wouldn't be a good idea to extend the Victoria Line - it's packed enough already. Instead the various local lines with significant amounts of demand should be extended across London, giving direct access to the City and West End. Basically these are:
EAST: GE Main, LTS, SE Main, LBSC Main
WEST: SW Windsor, SW Main, Chelsea-SW (Epsom/Chessington/Sutton), LBSC Victoria
The challenge is to plan a link up of these four lines on each side without creating utterly duplicating routes across central London.
Reminds me of the Irish pub that's so crowded that nobody goes there. Extend it and give it more capacity!
EAST: GE Main, LTS, SE Main, LBSC Main
WEST: SW Windsor, SW Main, Chelsea-SW (Epsom/Chessington/Sutton), LBSC Victoria
The challenge is ... a link up of these four lines on each side without ... duplicating routes across central London.
That's what Crossrail should be doing, and you don't need four of them. A single high capacity Crossrail connecting the Liverpool St Shenfield line in the east with the Waterloo suburban line via Raynes Park in the west would do most of the job.
A few short underground extensions to the south and southeast would take care of the rest of the problem. And it so happens that there are three underground lines ready and waiting to be extended to the south (Victoria, Bakerloo and Northern).
Those that do probably change at Mile End or Westminster.
But how many people also travel Stratford to Stanmore, Cockfosters to Rayners Line, Epping to West Ruislip, etc,etc.
Through running provides an overlapping service for many different journeys.
(Going that way to Rayners Lane or West Ruislip I think I'd like an escalator or two on the way to stretch my legs!) :-)
Your pal,
Fred
BTW, I've added the person who took the photo & the date when that information is available, i.e. sometimes I find a old photo on this site where one of both pieces of that information is not available.
Matt
http://www.straphangers.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=006523
It does sound like "postponed" is more like it, though.
I agree that a free transfer connection would be important and useful there, and I would be very pleased to see a fully renovated ADA compliant station complex. But that is an expensive proposition, and it is possible capital funding hasn't come together yet for it.
My advice is the same as in other local issues: this being an election year,exploit it! Hammer at your elected officials to come up with specific grants that would be earmarked for a new MetroTech station renovation project. It's great electioneering for them and MTA will not turn down a grant handed to it on a platter. The station will get done.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
Whether the local paper is pulling a NY Post is anyone's guess.
If money is the problem, why not have an "out of system free transfer" as at one or two other places? That would surely require only software work, and no tunnelling.
Simply a matter of programming; they could all be instituted tomorrow if they wanted to but then again that would mean NYCT doing something that would assist its passengers.
Which describes a lot of people in an organization like the MTA.
If you can spend energy venting nonsense like that, you can also spend it on productive ways to get money for the project. See my other post. This is an election year.
That was the intent Ron.
Long distance, big bucks, across busy Adams Street. The only way I see it happeneing is if the LIRR/Airtrain to Lower Manhattan happens and goes through there, and the passageway is built as at the same time as compensation to Brooklynites for the hassle.
They could probably do an underpass from the far south ends of the 2/3 platforms to the south end of the Jay Street platforms. They just better be careful burrowing under White Castle; if that place closes, a lot of people will get upset!
A transfer could be built from the NORTH end at Hoyt St on the 2 and 3 to the South end at Jay St/Boro Hall. It probably wouldn't disturb the people at White Castle. I'm not sure if the 2 sets of Station Platforms are that close. But if TA is determined to build the transfer, something can be done.
Why the MTA is so opposed to this, when one of the purposes of Metrocard was to give flexibility is totally beyond me.
They allow swipers at the stations and don't do anything about it where they lose far more revenue than allowing people to use a transfer say from Jay to Lawrence. No construction necessary; a little bit of programming of the computers.
Of course what would be far better is to make all rides unlimited, just like they do in sophisticated cities such as Amsterday and in most German cities where the basic fare is good for a specific period of time. So once you swipe, your fare should be good for 2 hours.....It would work and save all this nonsense of building transfers here and not there. People would have the flexibility to do what they need to do.
Can somebody come up with a single reason why this wouldn't work when it works all over the world?
It works. It just costs money.
I sometimes used the Metrocard transfer in place at 51st/53rd and Lex because of construction to get a round trip from elsewhere to 51st and Lex, and back, for the price of one fare.
This was pure simple lost revenue for NYCT.
They can certainly reprogram the computers, but with a rising share of riders using unlimited ride cards, the Metrocard transfer exists anyway. In any event, the revenue loss would be next to zero. How many people make the transfer and pay twice now?
The advantage of the free transfer isn't that it's free, but that it's faster. To get from Broadway-Lafayette to Bleeker, you have to go up and down two additional sets of stairs, travel out of your way, and re-swipe in to get back on. If you know what you are doing, perhaps you'll lose a very significant five minutes each way every day. If you don't, you could be walking around for some time. People I know who have tried it prefer the F to the A/C to the (packed) 4/5 to the 6, rather than the F to the 6 out of system.
Same thing with Jay/Lawrence. Remember, until recently I worked at the TA at the foot of Broadway. The schelpp up and down the stairs at 4th Avenue and 9th Street wasn't great, but it was still better than the up, up again, around the corner, down, down again out of system transfer. With the connection built, you'd only have to travel down one set of stairs to make the connection.
Railfans have an incorrect view. Most people are either commuting, in which case every minute counts because you multiply it by 10 times per week, or are going somewhere they are not familiar with, in which case the many minutes needed to figure out an out-of-system transfer is an deterrant. Only railfans would be riding around the system with no time pressure at all, and yet be easily able to figure out where they are going.
It's probably happened. Remember, here in America, the old idea of working hard to earn a living has been replaced by the idea of getting rich quick through Lotto tickets and lawsuits :(
The revenue loss would be from people who would be able to make a round trip (or stopover) on a single fare.
I think they are full of crap,and the transfer tunnel was a blowing smoke up our collective backsides to get more funding...
what happen to the funding from the LGA Airport link?[Do I see a trend here?] 645 million dollars is nothing to snezz at...
I feel as if we are being deceived,and once again threated with a fare hike,service cuts...What else is new?
what they should do is cut some of those damn managers and other fluffy jobs,and use the money wisely instead of studying everything to death.......
the letters are on the way...you bunch of pompus blowhards...pissing craploads of money away....
That's a very busy transfer point and also less expensive to do - with an immediate return. It serves trains which carry a lot of people from rich to poor.
I have not seen anything from the MTA that said it does not want to do it. I hear a Brooklyn pol ranting (he may be right or wrong. That needs to be verified).
"When I read that piece,I wanted to blow up at them...You know once again short changing Brooklyn."
Bleeker Street serves F riders from Brooklyn. Adding the missing half of that transfer helps primarily Brooklyn riders. Manhattan residents don't use that transfer.
Instead of just imagining all kinds of silly conspiracies and wasting your time bawling o about them, use your energy constructively. It's an election year - nothing is more helpful to an election than the headline "Assemblyman (or Congressman, or whatever) Jones of Brooklyn Gets $x million for Metro-tech Transfer."
Go to the state government website, look up your elected officials, and get to work.
Does that work for you,like it works for me?8^)
Yes, it will work...be persistent.
I personally find that transfer very convenient for going from Union Square to the Lower East Side or (occasionally!) Brooklyn.
I think there are plenty of other projects in Bklyn which be much more of a help than that one. Maybe a transfer at Junius-Livonia btwn the 3 & L. Or at least an out of system transfer or something, cuz that would really be a big help for people in the eastern parts of Brooklyn to get around.
U seem to always be concentrating on the west side of Brooklyn where you live. The other guys count count too. 8~}
-Broadway Buffer
I wouldn't want you to delete my post cuz I wasn't politically correct or something. Some women might take offense to that. Better call the moderators!!
-Broadway Buffer
And it won't end with this little transfer tunnel either....
Look,my problem with them is they don't give a rats ass about the outer boro's.....ALL the reconstyction you've seen in our Boro was done because they HAD TO,not because they WANTED TO!
Look around you...we are riding the same lines our forefathers did 70 years ago,with nothing added to make our commute any easier.... our system was BIGGER,with more trains running per hour than today.We have the only rapid transit railroad ever to reduce it's milage over 50 miles to a point where it was named the "world largest shinking transit system"...Other systems thruout the world are EXPANDING,WHILE within the last 30 years,the MTA added 6 miles.
think im not telling the truth?...Find a subway map from the 50's and compare it to todays map... or one from the 40's... or from the 30's even.... you will see glaring defects.....
the IND system in downtown Brooklyn does not transfer to ANYTHING...with out paying another fare..and that,my friend is not fair,if you compre it to other CBD's in the city....
The people of Brooklyn pay just as much if not more into the mass transit system...and it's time we got something back becides lip service....
No, I know you are telling the truth. I understand that the outer boros are not concentrated on and should be more. But the thing I disagree with you on is that the area of Downtown Bklyn and that entire area is not in need of any service improvements as far as transfers are concerned. I could be wrong, but I don't believe there is really that much of a demand for this.
I do agree with you on the fact that service was better in the past and there were also more lines and it is too bad there is no longer as good service. But there is no longer a need for as many with more cars on the road. People also don't like els like on 3 Ave because of the darkening effect it causes on the street. A loss of air, light, and more sound. If u ever saw the movie What Women Want you can see how annoying it is having an el outside your apartment. LOL!! It is a great example even though I'm sure it was exaggerated by Hollywood.
Also, how come they have not rebuilt the walkway btwn the 3 and L? Doesn't that seem like a prime transfer point, maybe even more of a need for it than Lawrence-Jay?
-Broadway Buffer
Take another look,then come back again....
W Broadway Local
I saw build it.. because it will make it convenience for Broadway-Brooklyn and 8th Avenue riders. People who have a hard time transfering from the A/C lines to the rest of the system .. If it wasn't for the F transfer at 9th Street/4th Avenue, the A/C would be completely cut off. Count the Shuttle as well, because I said that was a good reason to maintain the shuttle which they did. Just picture there not being a shuttle and everyone haven't to go to manhattan just to go back into brooklyn to for the southern division or Eastern Division A/C?
W Bwy
As for the Broadway Line, we all know the transfer b/t the 8th Avenue line is the worse in the system. The exception might be the #7 which I found to be incredible.
W Broadway Local
And you would think that programming the change would not be unduly expensive or time-consuming.
I would imagine that this is something that they simply do not feel like doing. They don't think it to be important, that it would impact too few people, that it sets a precedent that they don't like, something like that.
They could have a transfer set up tomorrow by using an out of system metrocard transfer just like they do for Manhattanites at 53rd Street but then again we're Brooklynites and don't count in their estimation.
Why the hell isn't there a metrocard transfer???? There should be, just like other cities in the world, unlimited transfers in a certain time span throughout the system. Easy to set up and something that wouldn't cost them very much as many people have unlimited metrocards anyway.
But if you want one, write to them and say so. The two they have set up were done due to loud and persistent rider demand.
But still - it came from the public process.
One of the advantages of the metrocard over the token was this ability to have metrocard transfers....it can obviously be done but that would mean NYCT is doing something that would be helpful to passengers
Metrocard transfers would cost them nothing.
21st century? Christ, I'd be happy if they'd accept mid-20th century technology.
The article (besides misspelling "linchpin" and "downtown") quoted various letters to NYCT by elected and non-elected officials, in which the writers complained about the decision not to connect the Jay Street and Lawrence Street stations. Nowhere does it say how the writers knew the station project had been deferred/abandoned, which leads one to wonder whether it has, in fact, been deferred/abandoned. In my years at NYCT, I've seen letters from politicians to NYCT complaining that NYCT had proposed something that, in fact, NYCT had not proposed. I have to wonder whether these people then turn around and take credit for "stopping" something that was never proposed in the first place!
David
:0)
W Bwy
W Bwy
OPPS! I forgot the A/C also serves this possible transfer. That is awful! This is a big opportunity to connect the Broadway-Southern Division Line with the 8th Avenue-Brooklyn Eastern Division lines (which happens no where else in the system).
But can the Lawrence station handle such a transfer? seems like these two stations (lawrence and Court) where not build to handle crowds. What do you think?
W Bwy Lcl
I must be a terrorist!
(More to come.)
Rules of Conduct
Proposed Rules of Conduct
That was obvious to me...
Plans call for running some Blue line trains to Mount Vernon Square and using those slots for trains from Dullas, also some Orange line trains will surrender there slots in the schedule to the Silver Line. Remember only three stations in Virginia on the K Route are not be served by the Silver line.
As to running times and speeds of trains. Most of this stuff has been worked out, it just hasn’t been published for public view yet.
Let me get back to you on my guestament on the running times from stations on the Silver line to station on the existing system
John
Are you sure they would do it this far ahead of the opening of the line? I can think of other changes that could occur first and could alter their planned Silver Line schedules if they have gotten that far.
We have disgust this before as part of the Future car procurement and how cars will be utilized after the Silver line is brought on line. This information was ripped from the System Access and Capacity Program. Mind you changes can be made from what is now planed and tweaking will likely happen between now and the opening of the Silver Line
I can think of other changes that could occur first and could alter their planned Silver Line schedules if they have gotten that far.
I can think of a few thing myself, such as shortening headway’s down below 3 minutes on the trunk routes between Rosslyn (C04) and Stadium-Armory (D08), not running some of the trains east of West Park (Tysons East) (M02) or not running some trains east of Court House (K01) into the downtown core.
John
5 minute headways on the Blue/Orange line would be quite interesting considering how things now are on the Red Line. I'll be riding downtown this afternoon and can evaluate further but I wouldn't be calling them a success yet.
And why is Silver becoming so popular, I think Chicago is working on one two, not to mention Boston's bogus BRT line; which they have the nerve to show on the subway map
Dulles Corridor Rapid Transit Project
Routing trains will use from the east side of Washington DC to the Dulles Corridor
John
I'm betting in Boston it was put on the map to try to convince residents of Mattapan that they weren't getting the shaft. ("See, it's on the subway map! Great service, huh?")
It'll be interesting to see how they route this. I think MSP was one of the last airports that planned transit access before 9/11; their tunnels go under an active runway.
Dulles Airport was designed for Metro access since it was built in the 1960's. Planning for the two facilities began around the same time in the late 1950s.
In fact, Dulles even has an alleged abandoned Metro station
buried under its parking lot out in front of the terminal.
Too bad they won't be re-using it -- instead they're wasting money to
put the line underground at that point, instead of much more sensibly elevated.
I hear tell MPL' new "lite rail" line is underground at the airport
terminal but doesn't even connect with the terminal building itself,
what's up with that?? As for going under the runway, it's the only
route that makes sense in many ariports -- and the only justification
for putting an airport rail line underground. Be worried about airports that have major highways passing under tne runway, like Dallas.
Meanwhile the State of Maryland insists that underground subways
are no longer economically feasible....
BTW, this is my first post. --Brian R.
The Humphrey terminal (a lot smaller) will have a station just across from the terminal building, in what is planned to be a second garage for it one day.
Mark
Ben F. Schumin :-)
And mind you, Fern Rock is dual purpose... it WAS stub-end for several decades, and is still used as such, albeit very rarely... heck, the loop was added because crossover movements to stub-end were inconvenient and caused bottlenecks (which they didn't want occuring during RailWorks)
So, if they ever get the Green out to Laurel, Orange to Bowie or Odenton, or Red anywhere further, why not have a loop terminal? The way they're done here, they're more efficient than stub-end turnbacks.
A perfect example is at Addison Road, where they're currently extending the line beyond its originally-planned terminus. All they have to do is add more track onto the existing tail tracks over Cabin Branch Road, and they have the line out to Largo. Then if they want to extend beyond Largo... (you get the point)
Likewise, an Orange Line extension beyond Vienna out to Centreville is in Metro's capital plan. It would be simple to extend Metro out beyond Vienna using the existing tail tracks. Of course beyond the existing tail tracks, considering that I-66 has encroached upon Metro's right of way almost the entire way out to Centreville, who knows where they'd build the line from the current ends.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
I can't think of any place on the Metro that would require a loop to turn trains more efficiently. All the outlying terminals can definately handle 20 TPH and probably can handle 24 TPH at an extreme maxiumum. Currently, they all handle 12 TPH during rush hour. Somehow, I don't think 30 TPH would work. The pockets at Grosvenor, Silver Spring, and Mount Vernon Square currently handle 12 TPH at rush hour too, and may be able to handle up to 15, but beyond that, they would be maxed out.
What you may not know is, the train control system is designed to handle 90 second headways. That 40 Trains per hour. At short turn terminals with every other train continuing to a terminal beyond, that’s works out to 20 Trains per hour turning in the pocket track. The biggest limitation is having train crews in place to execute quick turns.
Mind you the optimum maximum is 30 Trains per hour, that works out to 120 seconds headways, with short turn every 4 minutes.
John
I am well aware of how dwell times affect headways.
John
The ultimate source of most of these rumors/old wives' tales seems to be a web page filled with other confirmed inaccuracies. (It does have a few true elements thrown in!)
Not my site. There use to a link to a site in the world.nycsubway.org/transfer.html page to a site that contained hidden tunnels around Washington DC. This is where I first heard about this urban legend.
John
Huh? As you know, if the station exists it would have been built by the Federal Government, NOT Metro. Metro didn't exist yet (and only the routes had been selected, but the stations had not been designed) at the time Dulles was built. It was very much on the planning boards, however. At the time (mid-late 1960s) the planners agenda was to build a BART-like system extending far out into undeveloped areas paralleling former interurban corridors. These plans were quickly scaled back in favor of more subway lines in the urban core, but the perception of many in the 70s when the line was being built, was that Dulles would be the first extension to the completed system, and plans called for the ARS to be completed by 1979.
I would not surprised if the feds built a utilitarian, bathtub-style station for the Metro -- plans at the time called for Metro to look like an old-fashioned subway like the low-cielinged Toronto Metro -- and I would not be surprised if it were later ripped out, because at the time Dulles was being buit, Metro was planned to terminate a rail line of undetermined mode there, not build a through station. Single track segments would not have been ruled out and arches most definitely would not have been considered prior to 1967 or so, as y'all well know.
In fact, Harry Weese modeled the arches partially after the inspiration of the Dulles terminal building. The alleged station shell may have also built at an angle to the terminal, facing in, if it was built.
I am not answering this in Oren place, But here is what I know
I asked this question of one of the engineers that was working for one consulting contractors that was/is employed by the Dulles Corridor Rapid Transit Project at the open house workshop and public hearings in Reston Virginia back on Wednesday, December 3, 2003.
He replied by telling me that no subway station was built at Dulles International Airport.
That fact is, the alleged existence of a station shell at Dulles International Airport under the south edge of the parking lot in front of the main terminal building is a myth/urban legend
John
There probably isn't a station shell down there, especially since we're told it's the wrong dimensions. If there is anything under the parking lot, it's probably something else (storm sewer, perhaps?) that someone at some point mistook for a future Metro station. "What's that?" "Probably the shell of a Metro station." "Oh. Neat." You know how it is with these things sometimes. Someone will see something and mistakenly think that's what it is, and then that misinformation gets spread as fact.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Ben F. Schumin :-)
|| FRANC-SPRINGD
|| MT VERNON SQ
That would make GREEN go to Franconia-Springfield, and BLUE to Mt. Vernon Square, which is contrary to the rest of the system. I think you might mean Blue to F/S and Green to MVS, which makes more sense.
Of course, if you're going to send a train from Virginia to Mt. Vernon Square, you might as well sign it as Yellow, which already goes there.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
In other words, the Blue would run Franconia Springfield to Largo or Greenbelt/Mt Vernon Sq, and from Largo to Fran-Spring. The Green would run from Greeneblt to Branch Ave or Fran-Spring; or from Greenbelt to Branch Ave and Mt Vernon Sq to Fran-Spring.
The Purple Line probably won't be built anytime soon
(yay, more routing options for my daily bike ride)
Too bad the planners share your lack of creativity, since funding for mass transit across the state is likely to be slashed as a result of a few NIMBY's in Chevy Chase, thanks to the ICC.
There are alternatives you know. Two of which I proposed on my website (as reported to John on mtu-t) four years ago:
http://earthops.net/purple-line
This is one of the two options which I, an avid bicyclist on the Met Branch (albeit currently bike-free) and my co-worker, who lives on the Cap Crescent Trail (it is literally in his back yard), would support.
Because, like all the other options it would preserve the trail (who told you otherwise? What the surface route Purple Line would do is kill the trees, and kill ridership by requiring a parallel platform "lite rail" station to be built in Silver Spring, complete with a restricted, single track route that could not be extended to my home town of Takoma Park MD).
The option currently on my site depicts a proposal for burying the rail just below the surface, stacking them in a trench to minimize tree loss along the corridor (and allow trees to be restored in any event once construction is completed). My County elected officials, who claim to be pro-rail but who say they are are "also pro-highway", described this as "horrendously expensive" even though any extentsion to the purple line would have to be underground no matter what. What they won't admit is that they want a trolley from Bethesda - Silver Spring MD, they don't care about extending the rail anywhere else in the state where there's no money to be made doing so.
If you prefer, the other option (which I took off my site though it would probably benefit my family more and avoids the trail entirely)
is to send the Purple Line Silver SPring -- Grosvenor. For some reason nobody, I mean nobody is talking about doing this.
In any event, the Purple Line should have a spur to Calverton/I95 (destination marker N10 according to John's labeling system -- see my site for clarification) no matter what.
That's where all the development is gonna go over the coming years, up the 95 corridor in PG county.
This is my second posting, hi. Too bad there's not more planning type discussion on this site (save for NY subway issues).
--Brian in Takoma Park
On the other hand, if someone suggests building a cross county line far far far away from DC itself, I might support it by using my anti-inner Purple rationale.
My suggestion, vote Republican governors and Democratic legislatures in MD to create congressional conflict until someone with good ideas comes along.
It's not FOR your extremely wealthy community. It's for the rest of us, and to reduce the necessity of paving over the rest of the county to build connector highways (including connector highways through wealthy neighborhoods like Potomac). Again, as I said before, a good friend of mine lives right on the trail 2 blocks east of BCC and is very familiar with the issues I have addressed. He supports the Inner purple line. You are simplistically opposing it without even an understanding of the route alternatives that I proposed on my website.
It would be unfortunate if nobody here bothers to look at my website because they had it on good authority from a well-respected poster who happens to have a personal interest in the matter.
> I don't consider myself to be a NIMBY but a transit enthusiast who advocates the construction of projects that improve traffic/transit options in the community.
Traffic, eh? SO you would support the ICC but not the Purple Line, because one does not go through your neighborhood? In any case I am not a transit "enthusiast" I am a transit "rider" and a student of architecture and urban design.
> The inner Purple line will not make anything better, and could make things worse.
For traffic on your roads you mean. Because more development will take place on your streets instead of out in the greenfields. I'm familiar with plenty of people here in Takoma Park (leftists, mostly) who would agree with you. They believe that places like Chevy Chase and Takoma Park should remain islands of low-density surrounded by urban growth.
> On the other hand, if someone suggests building a cross county line far far far away from DC itself, I might support it by using my anti-inner Purple rationale.
Sounds like NIMBY to me. In any case, the trolley will do more harm than good because it would destroy Metro's capital expansion program in the state of MD. It would also cause Woodmont Triangle and Fenton District to be demolished and redeveloped as high-rises. WHich is unnecessary. We need high-rises in places like the GEICO lot, not Woodmont Triangle.
> My suggestion, vote Republican governors and Democratic legislatures in MD to create congressional conflict until someone with good ideas comes along.
Perhaps you have not visited my website or did not visit it when my Grosvenor proposal was active. Neither you nor anyone else here has certainly not commented on it. I'm thinking of taking it down due to
lack of interest and I'm not very interested in posting to subway forums where people aren't interested in urban design (i.e. subway expansion) issues.
It's really unfortunate my original post concerning the excellent ideas on my website got no response whatsoever -- none -- on this site.
Where did I say I would support the ICC?
Also, we seem to be in agreement about the Woodmont Triangle and the effects there, though I am not in favor of building high rises on the Geico tract either. Whatever it is they are putting in place of the Chevy Chase Center is going to make traffic worse in that area, and high rises at Geico's facility won't do much good either IMO.
You should not take down your website just because in your few postings here, no one commented on your website. I visited it and found it to be interesting and I am sure John, Mark, and others will to. There are people on this board who don't just post "nice website" if they visit your site without wanting to post more substance in their message because it creates clutter and somewhat unnecessary posts. There are more appropriate avenues for that type of message. Perhaps if you post your e-mail address, you would get some.
Not true.
:|
How about this pipe dream that's been bouncing in my head? No need to tinker with the Blue/Orange lines, finally gets a line under Georgetown, and sends a line along Georgia Avenue.
M St Subway
Note it's not depicted here, but I would send the Yellow line north under 13th Street NW with stations at:
Crestwood (between the schools on Iowa Ave. and Upshur street),
Kennedy-Carter Barron (deep station under 13th street with exit at the corner of Georgia and Kennedy St)
Brightwood (station would turn east under the Fort Circle parks near Fort Stevens with a station at Georgia Ave. under Tuckerman(?) street)
Yellow line would proceed east under the Red Line at Lamond (the industrial area north of Kansas Avenue with station exits on Kansas Ave and a bus staging area on Metro property at the north end of Blair Road) and would proceed out under the PEPCO Line right of way to (a) follow University Avenue to Greenbelt or (b) merge with the Green Line southbound at College Park, where it would return to Mount Vernon Square and/or procceed back into DC as a Red Line spur (Fort lincoln spur to Mount Rainier, Bladensburg/Little Mexico, Riverdale, College Park).
The connections you propose between Yellow and Orange via Rosslyn and Dupont Circle would be wonderful, but I suspect they might be prohibitively expensive due to the deep tunneling through Dupont Circle and Georgetown at an angle to the flow of traffic...
See my link above for how I would route it.
Try this link to my crosstown line map:
M Street Subway and Crosstown
http://earthops.net/purple-line/crosstown.html
You made a mistake in your HTML.
M St Subway
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Probably unrelated, but at about 9:40, I was on a southbound 3 at 96th Street that was held in the station for the police due to a passenger injury (okay, okay, he was punched in the face -- I'm entitled to say that). Of course, I didn't know why it was being held until two locals had gone by, since either the C/R wasn't bothering to make announcements or the PA in my car wasn't working.
It didn't seem to cause much disruption -- there was another 3 directly behind it but otherwise no backup on the express track. (I transferred to a 1 at Times Square, and it held for a connection with the second 3 and then another few minutes for nothing at all, even though there was another local right behind it.)
Monday, July 26, 2004 9:40 AM
Port Jefferson Branch Customers:
LIRR train service is temporarily suspended on the Port Jefferson Branch, in both directions, between Port Jefferson and Huntington as a result of a person being struck by a train at Kings Park.
We are in the process of establishing bus service to operate in place of train service.
As a user of the 30-day card, I say this is unfair. I understand that the MTA believes that since "wealthier" people can afford to buy the 30-day unlimited card, they can better afford a raise in the cost of the card than "poorer" people who buy the daily and weekly cards.
Look, I might live in Cedarhurst but I am FAR from wealthy. Even though both my wife and I work, we have to employ a full time babysitter (who charges plenty, believe me) and have the other, usual costs of living - mortgage, car payment, health insurance. Add to that the fact that taxes eat up almost 40% of my salary.
It already costs me $239 every month to get to work ($169 LIRR ticket + $70 Metrocard). That's nearly $3000 per year in cash. If the Metrocard goes up, its really going to hurt me.
I know you're all going to say that I'm relatively rich so I can afford it. I'm telling you that if I'm anything, I'm middle class at best and my travel costs are really starting to kill me.
>>>and have the other, usual costs of living - mortgage, car payment, health insurance<<<<
I believe the increase will be minimal even though I no longer use the monthly Metrocard. Here's what I would do.
1. Cut back on auto usage - You can do this by buying a bicycle and doing some of you're grocery shopping with a cycle. Use the bicycle instead of paying for parking at the LIRR
2. Brown bag lunches - You can save MAJOR bucks by simply brown bagging luch twice a week
I drive about once a week, if that much. I take trains exclusively during the work week since its makes no sense to drive into lower Manhattan every day.
I have been brown-bagging lunches for years.
Reducing the amount of miles you drive will save on gasoline, but it won't make your car payments any lower and probably won't affect your insurance much if at all. In other words, many of the costs associated with cars are fixed rather than variable.
By the way, I agree with you about the burdens imposed by higher charges for monthly tickets. They'll hurt.
Well, at some point, that's certainly true. But the 30-day cards are pretty cheap right now: $2.33 a day. I'd say there's definitely room for a price increase. In fact, when I first found out the cards were only going from $63 to $70 whilst the base fare was going from 1.50 to 2, I thought, WOW, very little increase for me! I couldn't believe it went up only 11% compared to 33% for the base fare. So I think it's a damn good deal right now. I use mine at least twice every weekday and at least twice each weekend, so I'm saving a bundle and even with a price increase I'd still be saving a lot. Of course if they raise it to $140, yeah that would be just a bit much! Not much savings for most people at that price!
And how big of a price increase are we talking about anyway?
If you lower the price too much, revenues will drop.
If you raise the price too much, revenues will drop.
Somewhere in the middle it's "just right". I don't see any evidence that $70 is just right. I think if it were $30 people would be making the same complaints. OK, maybe if it were $40. (;-)
Plus, they have the MetroCard data and we don't. So maybe they've analyzed it and found that it could stand an increase.
Maybe they should raise the base fare? Yeah, that would be a sensible move. NOT!
I would not be crazy about having something worth $200 going through the mail.
If you, as a consumer, pay Fedex $16 (the current going rate; remember that commercial users pay a lot less) to send a $200 item somewhere, you're getting ripped off. It's simply a foolish expenditure.
Having said that, it is true that Fedex and UPS provided enough pressure to nudge the Postal Service into improving its own operations.
The volume and accuracy rate handled by the Postal service far eclipses anything Fedex, as good as Fedex is, does. While the Postal Service is #3 in premium overnight delivery, it actually sorts something like 200 million pieces of mail a day. It was also able to absorb additional deliveries when UPS went on strike a few years ago (though the airlines had problems because they ran out of space in the cargo holds, so some mail was delayed).
Try putting that kind of volume on Fedex beginning tomorrow, and Fedex would be in serious trouble.
The USPS price for nexst day delivery is also about $16, so there's no disparity there.
If you want 3rd day delivery (comparable to USPS), with tracking (which USPS doesn't provide), the price is more like $7 for a package.
Lots of people pay the $7 for the tracking.
Also, I can send a package via Fedex without a wait. With an account I can just drop off a prepaid package. If I send via USPS I have to wait 5-30 minutes at the post office. Packages over 2 pounds can't be dumped in a mailbox even if they fit.
Actually it is $13.75, and the last time I mailed something, additional insurance for that low an amount isn't needed. The question is whether the $200 item really needs to get there the next day. Very often the answer is "no." Of course, Fedex doesn't want you to think that way.
If 2-3 days will do (KC to LA or Philly takes, usually, 2 days for first-class mail), 37 cents is a good deal (assuming for a moment you are mailing a check). And it is 29 cents if you sort the items yourself and have enough of them to qualify.
"If you want 3rd day delivery (comparable to USPS), with tracking (which USPS doesn't provide),"
False. US Postal service offers tracking on Priority and First Class Mail now, for 45 cents extra.
"the price is more like $7 for a package."
$4 by Postal service, assuming not more than 10 oz of weight.
"Also, I can send a package via Fedex without a wait."
The postal service offers that too. It's called a mailbox, which is good for anything up to a pound. And there are Express Mail boxes too.
"With an account I can just drop off a prepaid package."
The post office does that too, and you don't need an account. And they also offer pickup service, which is cost-effective if you have multiple packages.
You haven't visited a post office lately, have you?
"Packages over 2 pounds can't be dumped in a mailbox even if they fit. "
Actually, the limit is one pound. Considering the number of times we've been hit with mailbox deposited explosives, the restriction (statistically speaking) doesn't make a lot of sense.
Yes I have. And I waited, and waited, and waited...
I use USPS for lots of things, but not for packages that I'm not allowed to drop into a mailbox. FedEx 3rd day is very competitive in price and far less expensive in time spent.
I can really get online tracking a la Fedex from USPS for 45 cents?
I just received a return receipt requested envelope from someone (an inferior service to online tracking) and the mailman didn't bother to remove the return receipt. I had to email the guy to tell him I received his envelope.
Yes. You can check status by phone or website.
A return receipt really doesn't mean the same as Delivery Confirmation (the Postal Service brand of tracking).
A receipt means a person at the address actually signed for it and you are receiving that signature so you can prove something later if you have to.
Delivery Confirmation can mean that the package got to the address, but you don't know whether someone in particular actually saw it or opened it. This is true of ALL delivery services, as UPS and Fedex will often leave parcels without obtaining a signature necessarily (unless you say a signature is mandatory).
USPS Express Mail requires a signature always (this may also be true of overnight on Fedex), but you can waive your right to a signature by checking the box.
Oh by the way:
Express Mail (USPS) delivers on Saturday and Sunday - the last time I used Fedex, it did not (but that may have changed).
Fedex will deliver on Saturday for an extra charge. Keep in mind that most Fedex deliveries go to businesses as opposed to residences, and in many cases they're not open on weekends.
I had always taken any important mail with me to work to mail in Manhattan. This after much stuff I had tried to send never arrived, and workers at the local P.O. were caught throwing mail in the garbage so they wouldn't have to sort it before ending their shift. Now that I'm not working in Lower Manhattan anymore, I'll have to decide if just mailing something is worth a special trip. I will consider it, depending on the importance of what is being mailed.
Oh no it's not. I have received neighbor's mail many times, including someone else's letter in the pages of my magazine pages. When it got particularly out of control, I did complain and it did get better. Now, it still happens, every couple of months, maybe six times a year.
And many, many people I know, in different areas of NY and throughout the country, have received mail belonging to others. The rate of errors, of misdelivery, is too high.
I'm not talking about the cost of the service here. And I am not saying that USPS does not get delivery right the huge majority of the time.
But first class mail gets mis-delivered-- a lot. The average person does not complain every time, but that does not mean missed delivery does not happen a whole lot more than official stats would lead you to believe.
Have not seen this happen one time with UPS, FedEx, Airborne, or DHL. I'm sure that these companies do screw up at times, but not with anywhere close to the frequency that it does with First Class Mail. And that's why corporations pay to have important stuff ( even those without value, such as signed contracts ) sent by courier, because they know it will get there.
So what? That happens occasionally to everyone.
UPS and Fedex have done things like not find my address, and misdirect my packages when I chose to use them. One time recently my package was submitted to a Fedex/Kinko store, accepted by an employee - and never made it on the truck!
On the whole, all of them are good delivery services.
"And many, many people I know, in different areas of NY and throughout the country, have received mail belonging to others. The rate of errors, of misdelivery, is too high"
You don't know what the rate of misdelivery is (you haven't measured it), and you haven't compared it to the private services, so you can't support that claim.
"Have not seen this happen one time with UPS, FedEx, Airborne, or DHL."
I've seen it with all of them.
The private companies do a good job - but they don't have even close to the volume of deliveries that the post office does. If USPS deliveries 1,000 pieces of mail and Fedex does 200, and they both have the same error rate, you'll see more misdirected USPS letters - thatdoesn't mean USPS is not as good a carrier, though. On the whole USPS does a better job.
If only there were ways of not having to receive the carrier route stuff and getting rid of the catalogs, I would be much happier with the USPS.
We occasionally get mail intended for one of the neighbors on either side. The house numbers are different, of course, and the surnames are not similar in any way.
I am a strong advocate of Mail 'n Ride. They've always sent it early, I've used it with the weird 132-F program (Transit Chek for most people), and MTA always sends it early, with a solid refund program if you don't open the wrapper. I feel sorry for the people in line, the first of the month. You should go for it.
Click on the above link to read from the Daily News article.
I say that it is a poor idea to increase the motnhly card, even if it is minimal aand would do more harm than good. I for one am a monthly user and its the most economical for me. BTW they were planning on increasing the cost for the $10 card but looks unlikely.
Exactly. And what level of " occasional " misdelivery is acceptable?
---
" You don't know what the rate of misdelivery is (you haven't measured it), and you haven't compared it to the private services, so you can't support that claim. "
Yep, I cannot prove my claim. It is not possible for me to do an audit of all delivery services in my neighborhood, much less the US as a whole. But neither does any private individual. But I can speak from personal experience.
Again, have sent and received thousands of documents from private services over 15 plus years with a zero error rate. Have had consistent level of " occasional " ( therefore acceptable? ) errors in First Class Mail ( am not even talking about the weekdays when noone on the block gets mail )
All those I have discussed the matter with over the years have similar experience.
And thousands and thousands of cost-conscious corporations, such as my own are happy to pay 30 times the cost of USPS First Class because they want to ensure that a two page letter to the other side of town gets there. And the clients and suppliers that my company deals with do the same.
Only some of the rapid rise of UPS and Fedex is caused by the need to get documents there the next morning. I think an equal factor is the need to be certain--not 99% sure,but certain--that a document gets there at all.
This is pretty self-evident. If you don't agree, then fine. I don't hate the USPS, and use it every day.
That may be, or it may be that corporate bureaucracies keep doing the same things over and over again without auditing to see if they still make sense. In this case, statistically, it doesn't.
Bye BYE.
And why should the MTA subsidize you and not anyone else?
Please...
I wish I had access to an ultra-precise scientific scale. Your statement indeed might be true.
I am still puzzled why they raised from $63 to only $70.
I find the idea that the 30-day card should be cheap to help poor people a bit strange. Why should wealthy people who use the 30-day card be subsidized by its better rate? How is that fair? Why not just make it free for everyone while you're at it?
And why should the MTA be in the income redistribution business and none of the other companies/organizations/etc. that you have to send money to for goods and services?
And who says that the current price structure is somehow perfect? By what criteria? I ask.
the mta has miscalculated a lot of things over the years, and me personally, don't feel a hike of the unlimited metrocards are a good idea..... the service is not something to write home about, and again,when will enough be enough? why should customers take the brunt of the mta's "miscalculations"?
New Redbird, R-32, 46, 68, 68a, and work photos. There is literally a ton of new R-68/68a photos!
Click here.
I am going to break it up into a few posts...
boy i leave nyc 6 yrs ago and the cars were clean then!
Your pal,
Fred
What is happening with the R32's lately? On Saturday, I spotted a "Q" on the Brighton with R32's, and they had an 8 1/2 X 11 piece of paper over the door with a "Q" on it, instead of the digital display.
That "paper" R-32 set has been on the (Q) more or less since Stillwell reopened. The paper was added only recently because the flip dots broke (that's what I heard and it makes sense). So there is nothing strange about the R-32 set on the (Q).
As far as the R-32 set pictured in this thread, that seems to just be a case of an incorrect flip dot route setting.
Your pal,
Fred
-Broadway Buffer
So no 75ft cars on the J M L OR Z...
-Broadway Buffer
Water under the bridge now.....the 160's are coming....
The BMT Standards called the Eastern Division lines home for many years, and they were 67 feet long....
Until around 1985 or so, the R32's and R38's showed themselves quite often on the M. The Slant R40's did too. Even after their GOH, the slat R40's made appearances on the M.
The R32's are "allowed" on the JMZL, it's just that they don't do it because they are not services out of East NY, which is where the Eastern Division lines are serviced out of, so it's not done operationally.
Here are pics to prove it!
That would of course explain the good mood of the T/O...
-Broadway Buffer
HYUGA, Miyazaki -- A JR Nippo Line train went more than 1 kilometer past a station it was supposed to stop at late Sunday night because its driver was daydreaming and forgot to put on the brakes, JR Kyushu Railway Co. officials said Monday.
The train hurtled past Zaikoji Station without halting, leaving the three people stranded as they watched through the windows of the carriage as the train sped past their stop.
They alighted at the next station and were returned to Zaikoji by taxi.
None of the 17 passengers on board the train were injured.
The driver only stopped the train after being alerted by one of the conductors. (Mainichi Shimbun, July 26, 2004)
ROTFL! I still can't get over how much of an idiot he was. LOL
-Broadway Buffer
Given the highly ritualistic nature of JR, and its insistence on absolute competence, it's doubtful that this employee didn't know his route. Given the culture, this guy was on a major league zoneout, either medical or insane violation of hours ... things like this don't happen over yonder normally. There's a little detail or ritual for every ticking second when you work for JR ...
Hard to tell if it's a phony story or not, what with the headlines that Mainichi concerns themselves with (e.g. "Teen killed by exploding toilet") as well as the whole Top 10 Stories page . . . (crazy thing is, they are probably real stories)
The new sections from this past weekend are up!
However, this post is about what I did after the MOD trip. I took the 1 train downtown to Times Square. From there, I got on a train of R32's on the R line. The front sign said M, so we got a lot of WTH looks as the train entered each station.
A man running down the stairs managed to get through the closing train doors at 57th Street. The conductor re-opened the doors for him. Once he saw it was an R train, he ran through the closing train doors back onto the platform. I guess he wanted an N.
At Queens Plaza, I saw an E train of R46 cars headed for 179th Street. Later, at Roosevelt Avenue, I see another train of R32's where one car had a rollsign with a very unusual reading.
I took the train to Continental. While there, I see an E train of R32's enter on Track 3, signed as:
Contiental Avenue
Jamaica Center
(E) 8 Av/Queens Blvd
Needless to say, it was the train's last stop, and left northbound, switching to track 4 in the process.
I then took an R Express back to Roosevelt for the 7 train, which I took to my home stop. And that is what I did.
til next time
Coney Island BU trip
Yesterday's trip was definatley one of the best so far! Click the image below to view photos!
-Chris
-Chris
Church Ave/IRT
All local stations on the 1/9 line from Rector to 28th st
Cortlandt, Prince, 8th, 23rd, 28th, 57th and 5th Ave, all on the BMT Broadway line.
Queensboro Plaza/BMT
Bergen St/IND
36th Street/BMT Brooklyn
42nd st/Bryant Park/6th Ave and 5th Ave/IRT complex
Brighton Beach, Ocean Parkway and West 8th st/Brighton Line
Neptune Ave/Van Sicklen/Culver line
81st St/MONH/IND
Tremont Ave/IND
82nd, 90th and Junction Blvd stations on the #7 line. Not sure if 33, 40th and 46th (redone twice) were in-house or contracted out.
However, I was doing my own personal subway joy rides covering the wierd GO's that was occuring that weekend, with the "G" train going all the way to Stillwell Avenue via the Culver route and the "F" train rerouted on the Fulton Street line to Euclid Avenue. I figured I might as well covered them for myself just for the record.
So, I entered and rode a Coney Island-bound "G" [south motor R-46 #5832, north motor #6110] at Hoyt-Schermerhorn Streets at around 1:20pm. There was a delay in service somewhere on the Crosstown line due to an "earlier" incident, which resulted a bunch of "G" trains being backed up.
When I arrived at Stillwell, I noticed many of you railfans along the platform waiting for the MOD fantrip train to come into the station. I also seen a few other railfans posted along the Culver line getting their cameras ready in position.
By the way, I recognized a few individuals along the Stillwell Avenue platform, including and most notably Mike Hanna himself, whose R.P.C. group was responsible for restoring R-10 car #3184, still at the Transit Museum. For your information as what I looked like as I passed by everybody in the station, I was the one who was wearing a brand new SEPTA baseball cap I purchased this past Thursday (7/22/2004) in Philadelphia.
Back on the same "G" train as it left Stillwell Avenue bound for Court Square, I spotted the MOD train way in the back at Coney Island Yard. Later at Church Avenue on the southbound express track, there was the garbage train with two R-33wf's #9340 and #9312 plus an R-127/134 unit.
I arrived back and transferred at Hoyt-Schermerhorn for a waiting "F" train [R-46 #6100 as south motor], and took the trip all the way "( ) To Euclid Av" as the digital side sign read. After that, a sunny-filled round trip here for myself between Euclid Avenue and Far Rockaway on the "A" train (R-44 #5432 south motor, R-44 #5358 north bound). I spot an eight-car R-44 consist signed up for the "A" running on the Hammels Wye connecting track upon my return trip back to Euclid Avenue.
Here at Euclid Avenue, the "F" train (R-46 #5736 north motor) waiting across the platform was developing door indication problems. So, it just stayed there, and the next "F" run leaving Euclid Avenue which I rode was a ten-car R-32 consist with #3948-3949 at the north lead's first two cars.
Flabbergasted, it was hard for me to imagine and believe that the R-32's side roll signs were at "179 St, Jamaica", "Euclid Av, Bklyn" and "(F) Qns Blvd/6 Av/Culver", which I did captured on film inside #3949 at Shepherd Avenue with no one noticing at all. Well, that was because it was empty in those first two cars when the train left Euclid Avenue.
The trip back for me was to just go to Roosevelt Avenue-Jackson Heights, then transfer upstairs to the #7 train. Along the way after climbing out of the 63rd Street Tunnel, I spotted an empty R-46 "G" train bypassing 36th Street on the Queens main line, probably going service at Court Square after leaving Jamaica Yard.
Anyway, that was my "alternative" to the MOD fantrip this past Sunday. I know you Subtalkers have not seen yours truly yet physically on any of those trips, but just remember I am there in essence "in spirit".
-William A. Padron
["HH/Fulton St. Local"]
-Chris
-William A. Padron
["B'klyn-Queens Lcl."]
lets be real there needs to be a midday M
As to the M to/from Ninth Avenue middays, I rode it on occasion during the time it did that. It was indeed a good "relief valve" for times the N and R crapped out (which did happen and, in the case of the R, probably still does every once in a while). However, the M trains I boarded at Lawrence Street were nearly empty just about all of the time. Operationally, it just didn't pay to run the service.
David
Perhaps increasing R midday service from 6 to 8 TPH (like the A, E & F run) would be feasible. I'm not sure what data the TA would have to either support or negate any argument for such an increase.
Agreed, Broad St can handle 6 J and 6 M trains per hour.
I don't get it: exactly how so? At Chambers, you have three train options to get to the Broad/Wall St area - the J,4, and 5. That's a bad thing? Or, is it what "stinks" is that you don't have a ONE-SEAT ride? Assuming you're able-bodied, you could WALK from Chambers to Broad (what a novel concept!).
It should be obvious that, if ridership numbers on the M reflected a sizable number of customers who have Broad St as their final destination, then the M would operate directly to Broad. As a T/O who works the M, I've yet to see that "demand." And, as one that worked the M middays to 9th Av in the past, ridership outside of the rush-hour period was light, to say the least.
David
There isn't much that's more irritating than having to transfer to a different train to go one more stop. Considering how inexpensive it would be to eliminate the issue entirely, why not do it?
I didn't say it was worth it, meaning economically justifiable, I just said that this section of the proposed midday extension is the only part that will be of any use to anyone.
"Perhaps increasing R midday service from 6 to 8 TPH (like the A, E & F run) would be feasible."
The increase in R service would be welcomed but I'm not sure that midday extension of the M to Brooklyn is justified. The M should always run to Broad St when it runs to Manhattan however. The savings by the MTA probably doesn't justify depriving M riders of transfers.
Yes, this is so. But, since you cannot terminate trains at DeKalb, 9th Avenue is the next best option. Problem is having to cross from the Local to the Express tracks and vice versa... THAT is what they want to avoid.
Elias
W Bwy
David
I know what I'm writing sounds stupid, but someone has complained that the "W" was delaying the "R". I was on the "W" today (like every m-f) the northbound "W" line was dispatched to Canal Street because of a holding southbound "W". This southbound "W" (i believe), was sent into the terminal immediately to free up the "R" bound for south brooklyn. Meanwhile, the dispatcher held us in the Canal Station for a remainder of 2 minutes before we were sent out. This is a good strategy for preventing the delay of the southbound "R".
W Broadway Line
PS: I hope this explains everything! Especially those of you who depend on the "R" line. I sure hope you understand that if your train is being delayed, it's not because of the "W" line. We got good dispatchers and I hope you realize that. If you do decide to complain, please take what I'm saying in account.
Sounds like this southbound W and the R behind it were ahead of schedule. Otherwise they wouldn't have caught up to the W that wasn't ready to leave yet. Wouldn't better dispatching have kept the trains on schedule during their southbound run?
W Broadway Local
If something is blocking service, it doesn't matter whether there's supposed to be a train every twenty minutes or a train every two minutes...nothing's going to show up until the source of the blockage is removed. Therefore, this isn't the kind of problem that scheduling more service is going to solve.
David
In 1995, due to a long-term midday GO that closed the Manhattan Bridge, Q trains were diverted to Montague, so the midday M was temporarily cut back to Chambers to make room for the Q.
When the GO ended, the permanent midday M service pattern was never restored (until 2001, and that was explicitly temporary). I don't know if this is the sort of service change that requires a public hearing, but if it is, was one ever held (before 2003)?
wayne
David
wayne
(M)-Nassau Street Local
Rush Hours: Metropolitan Av-Bay Pkwy
Middays, Evenings: Metropolitan Av-9 Av/Brooklyn
Weekends, Nights: Metropolitan Av-Chambers St
The M should run to Manhattan on weekends as well. Having just the J is not enough.
I'm sure if the expansion plans (Winfield Spur, line leaving at Woodhaven/Horace Harding, Jewel Avenue, larger So. Jamacia extension) the traffic and passenger numbers would be about the same as they
are now, but it would be for a completely different reason.
And one other Queens Blvd. IND question, did the Hillside Ave. extension call for building another storage facility in Queens?
As for more storage facilities in Queens, the intended Rockaway LIRR connection in Rego Park would have given Queens Blvd trains access to the Rockaway Park Yard, whic I assume would have been kept despite the planned extension to Beach 149th St.
But here's something else to chew on with the whole idea of "one-seat ride." Before people started driving to work in large numbers, did the whole push for a one-seat ride in transit really matter? I'm sure some of the early subway and el planners figured their mode of transportation moved people faster than streetcars or walking. So perhaps the IND planners of the 1930's never foresaw cars pushing the urge for one-seat rides.
And I do agree, the IND's biggest shortcomings are the easy track connections that were never completed. Hoyt-Schermerhorn screams out. But maybe somebody back then figured that Downtown Brooklyn was a bigger destination for the folks in places like Greenpoint than lower Manhattan was, who knows?
And here's another shortcoming, but again nobody probably predicted it 70 years ago, how about building the Lexington Avenue station on the 53rd Street line with 2 Southbound platforms or a track for the 6th Avenue trains and another for the 8th Avenue trains. That would ease the overcrowding on the platform and open up some TPH capacity back into Queens. But until very recently, you couldn't change to the East Side IRT there, so it was probably a moot point until the last decade or so.
Fine. A planned elevated line is to be built right thru your house. You have 90 days to get out before demolition begins. If we feel like it, we'll give you fair market value for your home, eventually, and we'll determine what's "fair market value". What, you say you rent? Too bad, you'll get nothing. Oh, and guess what? This elevated line will have no stations in your neighborhood, it's being built to provide direct rail service from Dutchess County to lower Manhattan.
But giving a homeowner the absolute power to veto any project is just as corrupt and wrong.
Agreed. But if someone has to be forced out of the way, there should be a process where such action has be scrutinized and forced to justify itself, and adequate compensation guaranteed. We see this process now underway pertaining to the SAS.
I stopped by the "Railroad Museum of New England" [sic], which cries out 'Restore me please!' Except for the cars on the siding, everything is fenced off, but I did manage to squeeze out several photos of this treasure chest in Old Saybrook. More photos here.
Your pal,
Fred
Your pal,
Fred
Your pal,
Fred
http://www.rrmuseumpa.org/about/roster/motive.htm
Was there any structure that could serve as a shop ?
If not it must be a dead line for stuff that the Valley RxR doesn't care about.
I think the Valley inherited them and hasn't figured out what to do with them yet. As I said earlier, they need money to restore these, which isn't happening.
Your pal,
Fred
avid
avid
it was more like 35c for da train, and 3.50 for *DA* train. Biggie price difference, but back in those days, if you were LATE for work, then you MUSTA been "on drugs" (didn't matter if the subways were 30 minutes late because of a DOG on the tracks, YOUR ass was doing drugs, so you was fired) ... INSANELY, the TA was the same way even though they had GAP SHEETS when I worked there. You got to Stillwell 5 minutes last REGARDLESS, you were DONE. :(
Needless to say, got there an HOUR ahead of time so there'd be no question. Had to get on the IND from 205th to report to Stillwell by 3:30AM ... agggh! But yes, if one was already running late, you just PAID the premium, but you did it ONLY when you HAD TO. :)
That would have been the New York Central/Penn Central Harlem line. New Haven trains don't stop at Williamsbridge (Gun Hill Road), and not at Fordham until 1977, IIRC, and even then not for passengers
between Grand Central and Fordham.
Maybe they feel they can sell the engines.
Haven't been to their steam operation in a long time, but they used to have a bunch of coaches in the yard with railfans living in them. They have a shop there too that used to work on stuff for profit.
Will probably post a question to the Valley section of RxR.net
Was it a pine tree, or a pine cone? Maybe the person was hit by a falling bottle of Pine-Sol!
Hempstead-CLP-Clinton Rd-Quentin Roosevelt Blvd-Zeckendorf Blvd-Source Mall
Have a shuttle bus carry people from the Zeckendorf Blvd stop around RFM and to the shopping center at Best Buy and Sports Authority.
It's all on my site
www.freewebs.com/islandtransitli
That should be "marked for my spelling"
Neatness also counts! More to the point, however, when a person is pinned between the carbody and the platform it's not usually called a 12-9. It's referred to as a "Space Case".
-Stef
I just replaced my old cellphone with a new camera phone today & I don't have a bloody clue as to what I'm doing!!
Yeah....I'm reading the book....but I haven't seen anything about transfering photo's to my computor.
Any help will be greatly appreciated!!!!
ps....not that you guys are missing any great Metro North shots of rt 311 in Patterson or whatever goes on at Southeast or cute babes walking to the train station in Brewster.....but I need to get this done!!
Jimmymc25
Your pal,
Cingular
For those wondering where the W would terminate, it could be at Bedford-Nostrand.
I like that idea better than mine.
Now if only the money was there...
-Broadway Buffer
Not that I want to kick the Transit Museum out of Brooklyn; but, Red Hook's population is increasing again.
Enjoy!
Your pal,
Fred
I really liked the sounds the motors the arnines and Standards made. I have often wondered if Star Trek didn't copy them for the sound the warp engines made when they were coming up to speed, because that was what they sounded like to me when we would come east to visit relatives back in the 60s.
--Mark
One sound that I miss -- the groan that the old BMT / IND trains used to make. Had not heard it for years, until I went to Berlin a couple of years ago, and heard it on their S-Bahn. A modern, excellent system, which apparently uses the same type motor that our old subways used. What is the name for that type motor?
wayne
Postwar cars from the R-10s on have helical-cut gears, with the teeth cut diagonally across. More expensive to manufacture, but much quieter.
Chuck Greene
When the train left, there was no arcing. I don't know if whatever caused the arcing came off the third rail or if the train just carried it down the line.
Michael
Washington, DC
Michael
Washington, DC
Yes - but what IS arcing ?
Michael
Washington, DC
That is arcing. It is the electricity flowing across a gap, said gap usually consisting of air. The insulating spacers you see on overhead electric wires are there to prevent arcing.
How does the Jacob's ladder work? Well, the arcing starts at the bottom of the ears where the gap is shortest. Electrons follow the path of least resistance, here being the shortest possible gap. The arcing heats and ionizes the air. So you now have a small section of heated ionized air. Ionized air has much less resistance to electricity than regular air. Now, since the air is hot, it rises. So the ionized heated air rises up the rabbit ears and the spark goes with it, it being the path of least resistance due to it being ionized. When the hot ionized air rises above the rabbit ears, the path of least resistance is again the bottom of the ears where the gap is physically the smallest (about 1 cm or so). The result is what you see in the classic old sci-fi movies, a spark that repeatedly travles up the wires. That's all there is to it!
The problem with arcing in the subway, of course, is that it starts track fires, damages involved surfaces, and wastes power. And staring at it could damage your eyes, as another poster pointed out.
When the brushes go bad, it's not unusual for axles to weld. I'm sure Train Dude's seen a few.
I used to eat there all the time when I was growing up. I haven't been there in a very long time. How is the food these days? Is the clam bisque and the biscuits like it was years ago?
Michael
Washington, DC
No where near as good as it used to be. Ever since it closed cuz of some fire or something, the food was never the same. It's still not bad, but nothing to rave about anymore.
-Broadway Buffer
1. 42 St-Times Sq (7-8 Aves)(1,2,3,9,7,A,C,E,N,Q,R,S,W) 52,506,979
2. Grand Central-42 St (4,5,6,7,S) 39,020,110
3. 34 St-Herald Square (B,D,F,N,Q,R,V,W) 34,930,603
4. 14 St-Union Square(4,5,6,L,N,Q,R,W) 28,008,397
5. 34 St-Penn Station(1,2,3,9) 25,995,619
6. 34 St-Penn Station (A,C,E) 21,707,756
7. Lexington Ave(53 St.)/51 St(6,E,V) 17,507,267
8. Canal St (6,J,M,N,Q,R,W,Z) 16,734,952
9. 86 St (4,5,6) 16,734,952
10. Main St-Flushing 16,449,916
11. 59 St/Lexington Ave (4,5,6,N,R,W) 16,089,574
12. Fulton St/Bway-Nassau St(2,3,4,5,A,C,J,M,Z) 15,580,428
13. 59 St-Columbus Circle (1,9,A,B,C,D) 15,283,072
14. 47-50 Sts-Rockefeller Center (B,D,F,V) 15,016,673
15. 14 St/6-7 Aves (1,2,3,9,F,L,V) 13,928,910
16. 74 St/Roosevelt Ave (7,E,F,G,R,V) 13,485,468 [25% of ridership]
..................................................
17. 42 St(6 Ave)/5 Ave (7,B,D,F,V) 11,033,309
18. Jamaica Center-Parsons-Archer (E,J,Z) 11,024,046
19. 96 St (1,2,3,9) 10,890,581
20. W.4 St (A,C,E,F,S) 10,618,439
21. 72 St (1,2,3,9) 10,329,896
22. Chambers St-WTC/Park Pl (2,3,A,C,E) 9,920,511
23. Court St/Borough Hall (2,3,4,5,M,N,R,W) 9,905,366
24. 68 St-Hunter College (6) 9,746,973
25. 77 St (6) 9,512,424
26. Chambers St/Brooklyn Bridge (4,5,6,J,M,Z) 9,477,183
27. 57 St (N,Q,R,W) 8,754,015
28. Jay St-Borough Hall (A,C,F) 8,716,237
29. 14 St/8 Ave (A,C,E,L) 8,397,478
30. 23 St (6) 8,362,687
31. 33 St (6) 8,174,080
32. 49 St (N,R,W) 8,118,610
33. Utica Ave-Crown Heights (3,4) 7,988,934
34. 50 St (1,9) 7,757,002
35. 71 Ave-Forest Hills (E,F,G,R,V) 7,705,077
36. Union Turnpike-Kew Gardens (E,F) 7,631,641
37. Bowling Green (4,5) 7,179,978
38. 161 St-Yankee Stadium (4,B,D) 7,060,571
39. Bway-Lafayette St/Bleecker St (6,F,S,V) 7,045,436
40. 125 St (4,5,6) 7,043,694
41. 66 St-Lincoln Center (1,9) 7,014,265
42. Wall St (2,3) 6,846,931
43. 179 St-Jamaica (F) 6,716,201
44. Atlantic Ave/Pacific St (2,3,4,5,M,N,Q,R,W) 6,651,271
45. 5 Ave (E,V) 6,479,281
46. 96 St (6) 6,474,436
47. Junction Blvd (7) 6,450,668
48. 23 St (F,V) 6,395,318
49. 125 St (A,B,C,D) 6,377,256
50. 168-Washington Heights (1,9,A,C) 6,312,791
51. 3 Ave-149 St (2,5) 6,217,624
52. Woodhaven Blvd (G,R,V) 6,215,716
53. 28 St (6) 6,014,144
54. Wall St (4,5) 5,893,108
55. 52 St-Jackson Hts (7) 5,845,156
56. 86 St (1,9) 5,826,800
57. 8 St-New York University (N,R,W) 5,803,817
58. Flatbush Ave-Brooklyn College (2,5) 5,622,450
59. Astor Place (6) 5,558,487
60. 90 St-Elmhurst Ave (7) 5,453,880 [50% of ridership]
..................................................
61. 145 St (A,B,C,D) 5,284,515
62. 23 St (C,E) 5,244,743
63. 23 St (N,R,W) 5,230,011
64. 79 St (1,9) 5,179,463
65. Canal St (A,C,E) 4,942,511
66. Chambers St (1,2,3,9) 4,907,664
67. 103 St-Corona Plaza (7) 4,881,360
68. Sutphin Blvd-Archer Ave (E,J,Z) 4,869,843
69. 61 St-Woodside (7) 4,772,355
70. Grand Ave-Newtown (G,R,V) 4,758,477
71. 63 Dr-Rego Park (G,R,V) 4,741,580
72. Delancey St/Essex St (F,J,M,Z) 4,721,468
73. 50 St (C,E) 4,705,726
74. Kings Highway (Q) 4,698,500
75. Church Ave (Q) 4,667,323
76. Ditmars Blvd-Astoria (N,W) 4,662,750
77. 1 Ave (L) 4,655,066
78. Bedford Ave (L) 4,619,699
79. Prince St (N,R,W) 4,575,462
80. 23 St (1,9) 4,528,749
81. 5 Ave (N,R,W) 4,498,896
82. Steinway St (G,R,V) 4,464,418
83. 23 St-Ely Ave/Court Square (E,G,V) 4,422,439
84. Nostrand Ave (A,C) 4,412,071
85. East Broadway (F) 4,352,635
86. 2 Ave (F,V) 4,279,274
87. 46 St (7) 4,249,670
88. 137 St-City College (1,9) 4,229,328
89. 116 St-Columbia University (1,9) 4,228,865
90. Myrtle Ave/Wyckoff Ave (L,M) 4,207,016
91. Christopher St-Sheridan Sq (1,9) 4,148,221
92. Houston St (1,9) 4,141,307
93. Brighton Beach (Q) 4,111,622
94. Elmhurst Ave (G,R,V) 4,101,976
95. Dekalb Ave(Flatbush Ave) (M,N,Q,R,W) 4,074,538
96. Parkchester-E.177 St (6) 4,056,987
97. Whitehall St-South Ferry (N,R,W) 4,015,708
98. 116 St (6) 3,992,506
99. 103 St (6) 3,955,596
100. Nevins St (2,3,4,5) 3,929,386
101. 30 Ave (N,W) 3,868,713
102. Sheepshead Bay (Q) 3,855,558
103. Franklin Ave/Botanic Garden (2,3,4,5,S) 3,829,296
104. Utica Ave (A,C) 3,824,303
105. 57 St (F) 3,734,711
106. Cathedral Pkwy-110 St (1,9) 3,731,184
107. Broadway (N,W) 3,715,489
108. 125 St (2,3) 3,566,066
109. 175 St (A) 3,551,951
110. Lexington Ave (F) 3,506,702
111. 28 St (1,9) 3,467,607
112. 181 St (1,9) 3,458,723
113. 103 St (1,9) 3,434,372
114. 33 St (7) 3,423,481
115. 135 St (2,3) 3,412,539
116. 7 Ave (F) 3,328,653
117. South Ferry (1,9) 3,239,198
118. 149 St-Grand Concourse (2,4,5) 3,238,418
119. Metropolitan Ave/Lorimer St (G,L) 3,213,747
120. Fordham Rd (B,D) 3,166,410
121. Rockaway Pkwy-Canarsie (L) 3,130,551
122. 40 St (7) 3,122,160
123. 81 St-Museum of Natural History (B,C) 3,121,580
124. Church Ave (2,5) 3,107,659
125. Fordham Rd. (4) 3,098,644
126. Courtlandt St (N,R,W) 3,038,062
127. Spring St (6) 3,035,949
128. 7 Ave (B,D,E) 3,022,105
129. 110 St (6) 3,021,190
130. Burnside Ave (4) 2,990,327
131. 181 St (A) 2,975,335
132. 28 St (N,R,W) 2,967,837
133. Astoria Blvd (N,W) 2,912,578
134. 36 St (M,N,R,W) 2,900,752
135. 111 St (7) 2,899,625
136. City Hall (N,R,W) 2,893,493
137. 157 St (1) 2,872,717
138. Church Ave (F) 2,859,021
139. Bergen St (F,G) 2,839,903
140. Hunts Pt Ave (6) 2,819,503
141. 9 St/4 Ave (F,M,N,R,W) 2,798,588
142. 46 St (G,R,V) 2,786,041
143. 86 St (B,C) 2,777,807
144. Broadway-ENY/Eastern Pkwy (A,C,L,J,Z) 2,755,443
145. 145 St (1,9) 2,742,083
146. Carroll St (F,G) 2,730,528
147. 59 St (N,R) 2,725,215
148. Euclid Ave (A,C) 2,675,548
149. Hoyt-Schermerhorn Sts (A,C,G) 2,657,634
150. Newkirk Ave (Q) 2,653,078
151. 86 St (R) 2,629,895
152. Spring St (C,E) 2,605,513 [75% of ridership]
..................................................
153. 67 Ave (G,R,V) 2,588,095
154. 167 St (B,D) 2,582,380
155. Queensboro Plaza (7,N,W) 2,571,670
156. DeKalb Ave (L) 2,561,678
157. Kingsbridge Rd (4) 2,551,108
158. 231 St (1,9) 2,492,482
159. 116 St (2,3) 2,488,280
160. 18 St (1,9) 2,474,448
161. Grand Army Plaza (2,3) 2,466,763
162. 167 St (4) 2,463,161
163. Newkirk Ave (2,5) 2,399,728
164. Mosholu Pkwy (4) 2,388,031
165. Prospect Park (Q,S) 2,371,966
166. Tremont Ave (B,D) 2,370,607
167. Queens Plaza (E,G,R,V) 2,368,532
168. 207 St-Inwood (A) 2,347,369
169. 169 St (F) 2,346,676
170. 7 Ave (Q) 2,317,388
171. Greenpoint Ave (G) 2,301,183
172. 170 St (4) 2,273,288
173. 45 Rd- Court House Sq (7) 2,247,436
174. Kingsbridge Rd (B,D) 2,226,203
175. 205 St-Norwood (D) 2,219,039
176. Rector St (N,R,W) 2,163,306
177. 96 St (B,C) 2,162,723
178. Nassau Ave (G) 2,155,561
179. Lefferts Blvd-Ozone Park (A) 2,152,471
180. Hoyt St (2,3) 2,148,500
181. Simpson St (2,5) 2,144,214
182. 72 St (B,C) 2,140,202
183. 53 St (N,R) 2,122,863
184. Dyckman St (1) 2,106,242
185. Graham Ave (L) 2,081,089
186. Northern Blvd (G,R,V) 2,054,531
187. Bay Ridge Ave (R) 2,054,052
188. 36 Ave (N,W) 2,054,014
189. Central Park North-110 St (2,3) 2,052,134
190. 21 St-Queensbridge (F) 2,043,819
191. Sutter Ave-Rutland Rd (3) 2,042,356
192. Lawrence St-MetroTech (M,N,R,W) 2,040,890
193. 8 Ave (N) 2,028,427
194. Pelham Pkwy (2,5) 2,013,303
195. Ave X (F) 2,009,044
196. Ave U (Q) 1,993,260
197. 52 St (7) 1,989,342
198. 45 St (N,R) 1,977,667
199. Stillwell Ave-Coney Island (W) 1,957,321
200. Castle Hill Ave (6) 1,957,022
201. Dyckman St (A) 1,860,921
202. Winthrop St (2,5) 1,858,567
203. 170 St (B,D) 1,852,171
204. Rockaway Blvd (A) 1,850,703
205. Morrison-Sound View Aves (6) 1,822,526
206. Myrtle Ave (J,M,Z) 1,807,114
207. Grand St (S) 1,799,917
208. Parson Blvd (Hillside Ave) (F) 1,799,855
209. Grant Ave (A) 1,794,294
210. E. Tremont Ave-W Farms Sq (2,5) 1,793,197
211. Elder Ave (6) 1,781,097
212. 125 St (1,9) 1,769,246
213. Franklin St (1,9) 1,765,348
214. Flushing Ave (J,M) 1,763,948
215. Vernon Blvd-Jackson Ave (7) 1,748,051
216. Canal St (1,9) 1,735,002
217. 3 Ave-138 St (6) 1,731,873
218. Bay Pkwy (M,W) 1,731,565
219. 15 St-Prospect Park (F) 1,722,747
220. Brook Ave (6) 1,699,350
221. 183 St (4) 1,696,523
222. Cathedral Pkwy-110 St (B,C) 1,694,385
223. Grand St (L) 1,693,318
224. Van Wyck Blvd-Briarwood (E,F) 1,693,134
225. Rector St (1,9) 1,687,908
226. Ave J (Q) 1,685,259
227. 69 St (7) 1,684,620
228. Prospect Ave (2,5) 1,671,719
229. Marcy Ave (J,M,Z) 1,667,630
230. Sterling St (2,5) 1,661,337
231. Rockaway Ave (3) 1,647,397
232. Cortelyou Rd (Q) 1,630,550
233. 242 St-Van Cortlandt Park (1,9) 1,628,825
234. Bedford Park Blvd (B,D) 1,628,650
235. Hunters Point Ave (7) 1,626,563
236. Pennsylvania Ave (3) 1,621,255
237. Broad St (J,M,Z) 1,609,132
238. Roosevelt Island (F) 1,596,306
239. Pelham Bay Park (6) 1,589,658
240. Saratoga Ave (3) 1,585,376
241. E.180 St (2,5) 1,584,669
242. Union St (M,N,R) 1,579,915
243. High St (A,C) 1,559,735
244. Westchester Square-E. Tremont Ave (6) 1,530,276
245. Prospect Ave (M,N,R) 1,529,293
246. Ave M (Q) 1,520,191
247. Gun Hill Rd (5) 1,519,852
248. Parkside Ave (Q) 1,495,676
249. Kingston Ave (3) 1,479,024
250. Bedford Park Blvd-Lehman College (4) 1,466,841
251. Woodlawn (4) 1,466,327
252. New Lots Ave (3) 1,460,769
253. 182-183 Sts (B,D) 1,457,899
254. Allerton Ave (2,5) 1,447,198
255. 174-175 Sts (B,D) 1,428,348
256. Kingston Throop Aves (C) 1,427,296
257. Mt Eden Ave (4) 1,422,197
258. 9 Ave (M,W) 1,420,577
259. 116 St (B,C) 1,411,950
260. Jamaica-Van Wyck (E) 1,411,352
261. 176 St (4) 1,404,962
262. 95 St-Bay Ridge (R) 1,385,909 [90% of ridership]
263. Clinton Washington Aves (C) 1,379,917
264. Franklin Ave (Fulton St) (C,S) 1,378,885
265. 103 St (B,C) 1,377,253
266. Ditmas Ave (F) 1,358,574
267. New Utrecht Ave/62 St (M,N,W) 1,357,594
268. 79 St (M,W) 1,356,555
269. Halsey St (L) 1,352,244
270. Clark St (2,3) 1,348,826
271. 207 St (1,9) 1,345,126
272. Sutphin Blvd (Hillside Ave) (F) 1,344,338
273. Willets Point-Shea Stadium (7) 1,339,982
274. Clinton-Washington Aves (G) 1,329,916
275. Montrose Ave (L) 1,325,136
276. Ft Hamilton Pkwy (N) 1,320,533
277. Gun Hill Rd (2,5) 1,312,904
278. 3 Ave (L) 1,310,781
279. Crescent St (J,Z) 1,282,121
280. 233 St (2,5) 1,276,372
281. 190 St (A) 1,273,650
282. Lafayette Ave (C) 1,253,974
283. Far Rockaway-Mott Ave (A) 1,245,248
284. Beverly Rd (2,5) 1,240,492
285. Bergen St (2,3) 1,240,082
286. 18 Ave (F) 1,236,766
287. Fort Hamilton Pkwy (F) 1,229,337
288. Ralph Ave (C) 1,223,033
289. Bay Pkwy (N) 1,22,385
290. 77 St (R) 1,221,606
291. Nostrand Ave (3) 1,219,725
292. Rockaway Ave (C) 1,210,368
293. 13 Ave (M,W) 1,207,980
294. Eastern Pkwy-Brooklyn Museum (2,3) 1,205,671
295. E.149 St (6) 1,205,274
296. Halsey St (J) 1,187,842
297. Jackson Ave (2,5) 1,184,105
298. Gates Ave (J,Z) 1,179,022
299. Fresh Pond Rd (M) 1,167,763
300. 20 Ave (M,W) 1,151,845
301. Bedford-Nostrand Aves (G) 1,143,236
302. 225 St-Marble Hill (1,9) 1,136,316
303. Kings Highway (F) 1,131,547
304. 71 St (M,W) 1,131,547
305. 75 Ave (E,F) 1,131,027
306. Smith-9 Sts (F,G) 1,129,229
307. Jefferson St (L) 1,115,693
308. 241 St-Wakefield (2) 1,114,388
309. 25 Ave (W) 1,113,269
310. *174 St (2,5) 1,110,688
311. 18 Ave (N) 1,109,185
312. St Lawrence Ave (6) 1,103,197
313. 25 St (M,N,R) 1,096,718
314. 155 St (B,D) 1,096,008
315. York St (F) 1,093,788
316. 163 St-Amsterdam Ave (C) 1,082,718
317. Myrtle-Willoughby Ave (G) 1,057,087
318. Howard Beach-JFK Airport (A) 1,056,238
319. *191 St (1,9) 1,055,872
320. 135 St (B,C) 1,052,309
321. Fort Hamilton Pkwy (M,W) 1,050,651
322. 80 St (A) 1,035,918
323. 85 St-Forest Pkwy (J) 1,009,608
324. Ave N (F) 1,002,106
325. President St (2,5) 988,828
326. Neck Rd (Q) 984,884
327. 75 St (J,Z) 982,298
328. Woodhaven Blvd (J,Z) 978,733
329. Dyre Ave-Eastchester (5) 970,739
330. Kings Highway (N) 962,908
331. 36 St (G,R,V) 962,170
332. 225 St (2,5) 959,801
333. Metropolitan Ave-Middle Village (M) 959,474
334. Baychester Ave (5) 957,821
335. Broadway (G) 955,062
336. Forest Ave (M) 947,228
337. Morgan Ave (L) 937,330
338. Classon Ave (G) 937,288
339. Freeman St (2,5) 928,837
340. 50 St (M,W) 915,679
341. Longwood Ave (6) 914,897
342. 65 St (G,R,V) 913,298
343. Liberty Ave (C) 900,216
344. Burke Ave (2,5) 885,592
345. 20 Ave (N) 879,602
346. Lorimer St (J,M) 876,627
347. Knickerbocker Ave (M) 874,095
348. Cypress Ave (6) 862,613
349. Norwood Ave (J,Z) 861,177
350. 238 St (1) 841,086
351. Sutter Ave (L) 830,910
352. New Lots Ave (L) 824,957
353. Ave P (F) 823,420
354. 148 St-Harlem (3) 819,550
355. Nereid Ave-238 St (2,5) 817,458
356. Kosciusko St (J) 808,385
357. Cleveland St (J)804,319
358. Van Siclen Ave (3) 794,434
359. 145 St (3) 786,653
360. Beverley Rd (Q) 784,967
361. E.105 St (L) 764,503
362. Shepherd Ave (C) 762,284
363. 111 St (A) 753,474
364. Wilson Ave (L) 748,585
365. 219 St (2,5) 747,099
366. 138 St-Grand Concourse (4,5) 742,376
367. Ave I (F) 738,137
368. Hewes St (J.M) 725,563
369. Van Siclen Ave (C) 720,439
370. Ave H (Q) 718,488
371. Ave U (N) 714,949
372. Fulton St (G) 710,084
373. Pelham Pkwy (5) 694,114
374. 88 St (A) 689,474
375. 111 St (J) 687,681
376. Alabama Ave (J) 682,934
377. Ave U (F) 682,742
378. Intervale Ave (2,5) 676,763
379. Van Siclen Ave (J,Z) 669,550
380. Buhre Ave (6) 663,511
381. 155 St (C) 646,526
382. Bay 50 St (W) 628,364
383. 104 St (J,Z) 627,813
384. 55 St (M,W) 614,438
385. Flushing Ave (G) 603,868
386. Chauncey St (J,Z) 601,794
387. Beach 60 St (A) 587,757
388. Bronx Park East (2,5) 583,895
389. 39 Ave (N,W) 580,182
390. Seneca Ave (M) 578,499
391. 86 St (N) 564,100
392. Park Place (S) 562,378
393. Zerega Ave (6) 560,781
394. Junius St (3) 559,547
395. 104 St (A) 546,578
396. Bowery (J,M) 531,553
397. 121 St (J,Z) 525,808
398. Livonia Ave (L) 513,602
399. Central Ave (M) 488,636
400. Bay Pkwy (F) 478,961
401. Beach 25 St (A) 472,368
402. Beach 67 St (A) 442,287
403. 215 St (1) 439,168
404. Morris Park (5) 433,831
405. Whitlock Ave (6) 402,958
406. Middletown Rd (6) 401,787
407. Cypress Hills (J) 394,158
408. Beach 90 St (A,S) 302,875
409. Rockaway Park-Beach 116 St (A,S) 287,671
410. E. 143 St-St Mary's St (6) 278,239
411. Bushwick Ave-Aberdeen St (L) 260,328
412. Beach 98 St (A,S) 258,467
413. 21 St (G) 241,230
414. Atlantic Ave (L) 231,472
415. Aqueduct-N Conduit Ave (A) 223,599
416. Beach 36 St (A) 179,190
417. Beach 44 St (A) 116,074
418. Broad Channel (A,S) 91,353
419. Beach 105 St (A,S) 78,973
420. Aqueduct Racetrack (A) 33,714
System Total 1,385,124,768
* Stations closed due to renovations
191 St (1,9) Closed from 7/1/03 to 12/31/03
174 St (2,5) Closed from 8/23/03 to 11/24/03
I see that total subway ridership fell by about 2% from 2002 to 2003.
At a glance, I don't see any dramatic changes among the top and bottom group of stations; nor would I expect any.
It is much easier to do WMATA and its 83 stations :-)
Excluding the stations which were only partially open during either 2002 and/or 2003, here are the 5 biggest percentage increases and decreases in ridership
Increases:
1. Hewes St. (J/Z) up 67.7%
2. Avenue X (F) up 56.1%
3. 145 St. (1/9) up 55.9%
4. Kosciusko St (J) up 25.9%
5. Freeman St (2,5) up 18.9%
Decreases:
1. Rector St (N,R,W) down 27.4%
2. Whitehall (N,R,W) down 23.4%
3. Bowling Green (4,5) down 20.8%
4. 215 St (1) down 17.6%
5. Franklin St (1/9) down 16.7%
The top 3 decreases make sense with the reopening of the South Ferry stations on the 1 during 2003. The top increases also seem a bit odd. Were some of these stations closed for construction for part of 2002?
CG
That should say 2 years, not 3.
While the area around Hewes is getting more built up, thus more passengers, the main reason for such a jump is because Marcy Ave's count went down because it was closed for construction part of the year. It's safe to say that many of those Marcy people walked to Hewes during that time.
2. Avenue X (F) up 56.1%
Ave X was the terminal for the F while stillwell was closed to the F.
4. Kosciusko St (J) up 25.9%
I think Kosciuzko St was closed for renovations for a period in 2002 (don't remember if that was 2001 though), but in addition, the area along the Broadway el has much new construction, thus more passengers. Chauncey St also went way up.
As for Bowery, the area above Bowery is being gentrified, many college aged people and young people are moving in, so the station will have steady increases in the coming years, it's days are also getting brighter.
Also, Chinatown is spreading. I was stunned to see so many people getting off of the J trains I rode on Saturday and Sunday mornings. Almost all were Chinese (I lost count after 30).
W Broadway Local
But Bowery's usage will always be limited by the fact that you can't get directly to midtown from there.
Say I'm standing at the corner of Bowery and Delancey. If I want to get to lower Manhattan or certain parts of Brooklyn, down I go. But if I want to get to midtown (by far the most popular destination for subway riders), unless it's pouring rain, I'll take a little walk to Essex, or Grand, or Spring/Lafayette. Ditto if I want to get to other parts of Brooklyn, or the Bronx, or most of Queens.
It's a useful station, but its use is limited.
do you think that could be brought back?
1. Rector St (N,R,W) down 27.4%
2. Whitehall (N,R,W) down 23.4%
3. Bowling Green (4,5) down 20.8%
5. Franklin St (1/9) down 16.7%
Actually, I personally don't. We're talking 2003 vs. 2002. WTC effects would already be in the 2002 numbers.
Of course. That explains 3 out of 4. But how does it explain the drop at Franklin?
As of 9/15/02, not only does Chambers have over twice as much service as Franklin, southbound trains at Franklin only make three more stops before terminating. Passengers between Franklin and Chambers are drawn to Chambers.
I'm too hungry right now to bother checking if the ridership figure at Chambers rose in 2003, but I assume it did.
Hope you enjoyed your meal...
Ridership at Chambers was up by 800,000 passengers, more than offsetting the loss of 400,000 passengers at Franklin. You hit the nail on the head.
CG
PS -- for anyone who's interested, I put together an Excel spreadsheet that puts the ridership at each station in 2002 and 2003 side-by-side which made it pretty easy to come up with some of the interesting observations I made in posts 745892 and 745636. I'd be happy to e-mail it to anyone that is interested.
CG
Of course I'd be interested in your spreadsheet. Need I ask?
I fast on six days each year (although only two last for the full 25 hours). I've learned from experience that breaking a fast on even a moderate meal is a mistake.
I sure would. My user name has an e-mail link.
thanks!
If I interpret the available stats correctly, Howard Beach ridership has historically split approximately 50/50 between JFK traffic and local area passengers -- though certainly at particular times during the day the appearance may be 95/5 in one direction or the other.
As a result, you should see Howard Beach ridership go down by 5% for the year if current trends continue.
Presumably, the ridership drop at Howard Beach is simply a shift to some going to Jamaica to catch AirTrain and some going to Lefferts for a free Q10 transfer. It will be interesting to see what happens to the Lefferts stats in 2004.
CG
However, Howard Beach residents have gotten a renovated ADA compliant station. I hope that encourages more of them to use it. (It would also be nice if they got more frequent A train service, of course).
Ridership at 3 stations along the old Queensbridge stations is up considerably. 57/6 is up 12%, Lex/63 is up 18% and Queensbridge is up 12%. Only Roosevelt Island is nearly flat. This would seem to indicate that -- with the F running via 63rd Street -- riders are finding these stations much more valuable and not using alternative stations as much. Roosevelt Island ridership doesn't increase, because those riders never really had a meaningful alternative to lame service.
The station with the least change was E 143 / St Mary's St on the 6, where there were just 64 fewer riders in 2003. Of course, with only about 750 passengers each day to begin with, this station was already one of the 15 least used in the system.
Despite a decrease in ridership, 86 St (Lex) moved up from the 11th busiest station in 2002 to a tie for the 8th busiest in 2003. (There may be a typo in the 2003 stats, as it seems unlikely that ridership at this station would be exactly the same number as at the Canal Street complex).
Of the 20 busiest stations in 2003, ridership was down at 15 of them as compared to 2002. Ridership was only up at Penn Station (1/2/3/9), Union Square, 14th St (6th/7th aves.) and 96th St (1/2/3/9). Overall, the total ridership is down 2%.
Is the novelty of the Franklin Shuttle wearing off? At Park Place (the only station where shuttle ridership can be measured without including other lines), ridership was down 11% in 2003.
What's going on in South Brooklyn?? F ridership in Brooklyn is for the most part way down from Church Avenue and beyond:
Church Ave -- down 3.7%
Ditmas Ave -- down 6.1%
18 Ave -- down 2.6%
Avenue I -- down 8.7%
Bay Pkwy -- up 1.6%
Avenue N -- down 5.5%
Avenue P -- down 9.4%
Kings Hwy -- down 6.8%
Avenue U -- down 9.3%
It doesn't look like a shift to the Sea Beach...
Bay Pkwy -- down 1.0%
Kings Hwy -- up 1.6%
Avenue U -- down 1.5%
86 Street -- up 2.7%
Or to the Brighton
Ave H -- down 6.4%
Ave J -- down 4.2%
Ave M -- down 3.7%
Kings Hwy -- down 4.8%
Ave U -- down 5.2%
Neck Rd -- down 6.5%
Sheepshead Bay -- down 0.3%
So where did they go??
CG
I don't know, but I after not using it in 20 years, I've used it a lot over the last 2 months. I usually use it during off peak hours, and it attracts a respectable sized ridership for a 150' train.
One thing that I've noticed is that when it pulls into Prospect Park, a lot of passangers (possibly most) run over to the other side to catch a Coney Island (or Brighton Beach) bound train.
Also, I think that the MTA did a great job with limited resources on the Franlkin Avenue Shuttle reconstruction.
YES!!!!
But the 6 local is pulling in similar numbers to those connection stations.
24. 68 St-Hunter College (6) 9,746,973
25. 77 St (6) 9,512,424
YIKES!
We did better then the #1/9 Broadway lines which is a block away
32. 49 St (N,R,W) 8,118,610
34. 50 St (1,9) 7,757,002
This is a big surprise!
79. Prince St (N,R,W) 4,575,462
We just can't compete with an express line! but at least we beat out the #1/9
37. Bowling Green (4,5) 7,179,978
97. Whitehall St-South Ferry (N,R,W) 4,015,708 (my home station)
117. South Ferry (1,9) 3,239,198
Terminal Stations (big winners)
10. Main St-Flushing 16,449,916 (hands down!)
18. Jamaica Center-Parsons-Archer (E,J,Z) 11,024,046
43. 179 St-Jamaica (F) 6,716,201
76. Ditmars Blvd-Astoria (N,W) 4,662,750
for those of you who don't think the 2nd Avenue station does not draw a lot of passengers. even without a connection, it did very well.
72. Delancey St/Essex St (F,J,M,Z) 4,721,468
86. 2 Ave (F,V) 4,279,274
is an extended "V" still necessary? Judging by these number, no.
Me and my wife were debating which was the highest passenger ratio station. she thought it was Broadway, and I said 30th Avenue. Here's the statistics.
101. 30 Ave (N,W) 3,868,713
107. Broadway (N,W) 3,715,489
Non of us ever thought Ditmars was a high revenue station, but I was surprise to see this.
76. Ditmars Blvd-Astoria (N,W) 4,662,750
By the way, my home station is: 30th Avenue and Astoria Blvd. So I guess that should tell you how stupid I was about Ditmars.
Steinway Street is my secondary station when things go wrong with the N/W lines. This did not surprise me since this is a major shopping area which feeds into 30th/36th Broadway Avs.
82. Steinway St (G,R,V) 4,464,418
For a station cut off from the rest of the subway system in the Queens Blvd cooridor, I was surprise to see these numbers.
110. Lexington Ave (F) 3,506,702
Not that bad for a station being cut off due to budget cuts.
192. Lawrence St-MetroTech (M,N,R,W) 2,040,890
W Broadway Local
According to the Stats Jamaica Has more passengers. Since FLushing -Main St is Right after The Van Wyck Expressway. If you add Jamaica stations from Van Wyck Blvd east, WOAH!
If you ad Jamaica Center and 179th st It's about even.
going from 30th Ave in Astoria to Whitehall, do you just take the W local all the way, or if a N comes first, do you ride it a certain distance and then transfer to the W or R at some point? if so, when?
i'm curious if you feel that the N will allow you to jump ahead a local train, and if it's worth it?
W Broadway Local
W Bwy
I can use every 5-8 digit number you posted to figure out the average daily ridership at every
station by
dividing every number by 313.
Arthur Thomas
Houston is far busier than 23rd or Christopher during rush hour.
Case in point -- if you regularly ride the front car on the 1/9 going northbound you might think that 86 Street is a lightly used station since hardly anyone ever gets on or off your car there.
And you would be wrong.
CG
Doubtful. Houston's not too busy outside of rush hour.
2002 - 8,271,182
2003 - 8,174,080
Strangly, 33rd Street moved up from 33rd place to 31st place.
Another is 23rd Street on the 6 line. Ridership declined at this station but was more severe than 33rd Street.
2002 - 8,625,055
2003 - 8,362,687
23rd Street lost 262,368 riders in 2003
33rd Street lost 97,102 riders in 2003
Total subway ridership declined by about 2 percent. 33rd Street declined by less than average and moved up in rank.
being that i ride that section of the track every day during rush hour, i would say that 23rd subjectively "seems" a bit busier, only because people are actually getting on at 23rd (in the mornings), whereas 95% of the morning ridership at 33rd street is people exiting.
82nd St - Jackson Hts is listed as 52nd - Jackson Hts.
Also it appears that the ridership for either 86/Lex or Canal St is incorrect, as both are listed as exactly the same.
Please don't take those notes the wrong way. I'm (We're all) tremendously indebted to those who've made those files available electronically. Thanks for performing that service for us.
CG
1. 42 St-Times Sq(7-8 Aves)(1,2,3,9,7,A,C,E,N,Q,R,S,W) 52,506,979
2. Grand Central-42 St (4,5,6,7,S) 39,020,110
3. 34 St-Herald Square (B,D,F,N,Q,R,V,W) 34,930,603
4. 14 St-Union Square(4,5,6,L,N,Q,R,W) 28,008,397
5. 34 St-Penn Station(1,2,3,9) 25,995,619
6. 34 St-Penn Station (A,C,E) 21,707,756
7. Lexington Ave(53 St.)/51 St(6,E,V) 17,507,267
8. Canal St (6,J,M,N,Q,R,W,Z) 16,858,187
9. 86 St (4,5,6) 16,734,952
10. Main St-Flushing 16,449,916
11. 59 St/Lexington Ave (4,5,6,N,R,W) 16,089,574
12. Fulton St/Bway-Nassau St(2,3,4,5,A,C,J,M,Z) 15,580,428
13. 59 St-Columbus Circle (1,9,A,B,C,D) 15,283,072
14. 47-50 Sts-Rockefeller Center (B,D,F,V) 15,016,673
15. 14 St/6-7 Aves (1,2,3,9,F,L,V) 13,928,910
16. 74 St/Roosevelt Ave (7,E,F,G,R,V) 13,485,468 [25% of ridership]
..................................................
17. 42 St(6 Ave)/5 Ave (7,B,D,F,V) 11,033,309
18. Jamaica Center-Parsons-Archer (E,J,Z) 11,024,046
19. 96 St (1,2,3,9) 10,890,581
20. W.4 St (A,C,E,F,S) 10,618,439
21. 72 St (1,2,3,9) 10,329,896
22. Chambers St-WTC/Park Pl (2,3,A,C,E) 9,920,511
23. Court St/Borough Hall (2,3,4,5,M,N,R,W) 9,905,366
24. 68 St-Hunter College (6) 9,746,973
25. 77 St (6) 9,512,424
26. Chambers St/Brooklyn Bridge (4,5,6,J,M,Z) 9,477,183
27. 57 St (N,Q,R,W) 8,754,015
28. Jay St-Borough Hall (A,C,F) 8,716,237
29. 14 St/8 Ave (A,C,E,L) 8,397,478
30. 23 St (6) 8,362,687
31. 33 St (6) 8,174,080
32. 49 St (N,R,W) 8,118,610
33. Utica Ave-Crown Heights (3,4) 7,988,934
34. 50 St (1,9) 7,757,002
35. 71 Ave-Forest Hills (E,F,G,R,V) 7,705,077
36. Union Turnpike-Kew Gardens (E,F) 7,631,641
37. Bowling Green (4,5) 7,179,978
38. 161 St-Yankee Stadium (4,B,D) 7,060,571
39. Bway-Lafayette St/Bleecker St (6,F,S,V) 7,045,436
40. 125 St (4,5,6) 7,043,694
41. 66 St-Lincoln Center (1,9) 7,014,265
42. Wall St (2,3) 6,846,931
43. 179 St-Jamaica (F) 6,716,201
44. Atlantic Ave/Pacific St (2,3,4,5,M,N,Q,R,W) 6,651,271
45. 5 Ave (E,V) 6,479,281
46. 96 St (6) 6,474,436
47. Junction Blvd (7) 6,450,668
48. 23 St (F,V) 6,395,318
49. 125 St (A,B,C,D) 6,377,256
50. 168-Washington Heights (1,9,A,C) 6,312,791
51. 3 Ave-149 St (2,5) 6,217,624
52. Woodhaven Blvd (G,R,V) 6,215,716
53. 28 St (6) 6,014,144
54. Wall St (4,5) 5,893,108
55. 82 St-Jackson Hts (7) 5,845,156
56. 86 St (1,9) 5,826,800
57. 8 St-New York University (N,R,W) 5,803,817
58. Flatbush Ave-Brooklyn College (2,5) 5,622,450
59. Astor Place (6) 5,558,487
60. 90 St-Elmhurst Ave (7) 5,453,880 [50% of ridership]
..................................................
61. 145 St (A,B,C,D) 5,284,515
62. 23 St (C,E) 5,244,743
63. 23 St (N,R,W) 5,230,011
64. 79 St (1,9) 5,179,463
65. Canal St (A,C,E) 4,942,511
66. Chambers St (1,2,3,9) 4,907,664
67. 103 St-Corona Plaza (7) 4,881,360
68. Sutphin Blvd-Archer Ave (E,J,Z) 4,869,843
69. 61 St-Woodside (7) 4,772,355
70. Grand Ave-Newtown (G,R,V) 4,758,477
71. 63 Dr-Rego Park (G,R,V) 4,741,580
72. Delancey St/Essex St (F,J,M,Z) 4,721,468
73. 50 St (C,E) 4,705,726
74. Kings Highway (Q) 4,698,500
75. Church Ave (Q) 4,667,323
76. Ditmars Blvd-Astoria (N,W) 4,662,750
77. 1 Ave (L) 4,655,066
78. Bedford Ave (L) 4,619,699
79. Prince St (N,R,W) 4,575,462
80. 23 St (1,9) 4,528,749
81. 5 Ave (N,R,W) 4,498,896
82. Steinway St (G,R,V) 4,464,418
83. 23 St-Ely Ave/Court Square (E,G,V) 4,422,439
84. Nostrand Ave (A,C) 4,412,071
85. East Broadway (F) 4,352,635
86. 2 Ave (F,V) 4,279,274
87. 46 St (7) 4,249,670
88. 137 St-City College (1,9) 4,229,328
89. 116 St-Columbia University (1,9) 4,228,865
90. Myrtle Ave/Wyckoff Ave (L,M) 4,207,016
91. Christopher St-Sheridan Sq (1,9) 4,148,221
92. Houston St (1,9) 4,141,307
93. Brighton Beach (Q) 4,111,622
94. Elmhurst Ave (G,R,V) 4,101,976
95. Dekalb Ave(Flatbush Ave) (M,N,Q,R,W) 4,074,538
96. Parkchester-E.177 St (6) 4,056,987
97. Whitehall St-South Ferry (N,R,W) 4,015,708
98. 116 St (6) 3,992,506
99. 103 St (6) 3,955,596
100. Nevins St (2,3,4,5) 3,929,386
101. 30 Ave (N,W) 3,868,713
102. Sheepshead Bay (Q) 3,855,558
103. Franklin Ave/Botanic Garden (2,3,4,5,S) 3,829,296
104. Utica Ave (A,C) 3,824,303
105. 57 St (F) 3,734,711
106. Cathedral Pkwy-110 St (1,9) 3,731,184
107. Broadway (N,W) 3,715,489
108. 125 St (2,3) 3,566,066
109. 175 St (A) 3,551,951
110. Lexington Ave (F) 3,506,702
111. 28 St (1,9) 3,467,607
112. 181 St (1,9) 3,458,723
113. 103 St (1,9) 3,434,372
114. 33 St (7) 3,423,481
115. 135 St (2,3) 3,412,539
116. 7 Ave (F) 3,328,653
117. South Ferry (1,9) 3,239,198
118. 149 St-Grand Concourse (2,4,5) 3,238,418
119. Metropolitan Ave/Lorimer St (G,L) 3,213,747
120. Fordham Rd (B,D) 3,166,410
121. Rockaway Pkwy-Canarsie (L) 3,130,551
122. 40 St (7) 3,122,160
123. 81 St-Museum of Natural History (B,C) 3,121,580
124. Church Ave (2,5) 3,107,659
125. Fordham Rd. (4) 3,098,644
126. Courtlandt St (N,R,W) 3,038,062
127. Spring St (6) 3,035,949
128. 7 Ave (B,D,E) 3,022,105
129. 110 St (6) 3,021,190
130. Burnside Ave (4) 2,990,327
131. 181 St (A) 2,975,335
132. 28 St (N,R,W) 2,967,837
133. Astoria Blvd (N,W) 2,912,578
134. 36 St (M,N,R,W) 2,900,752
135. 111 St (7) 2,899,625
136. City Hall (N,R,W) 2,893,493
137. 157 St (1) 2,872,717
138. Church Ave (F) 2,859,021
139. Bergen St (F,G) 2,839,903
140. Hunts Pt Ave (6) 2,819,503
141. 9 St/4 Ave (F,M,N,R,W) 2,798,588
142. 46 St (G,R,V) 2,786,041
143. 86 St (B,C) 2,777,807
144. Broadway-ENY/Eastern Pkwy (A,C,L,J,Z) 2,755,443
145. 145 St (1,9) 2,742,083
146. Carroll St (F,G) 2,730,528
147. 59 St (N,R) 2,725,215
148. Euclid Ave (A,C) 2,675,548
149. Hoyt-Schermerhorn Sts (A,C,G) 2,657,634
150. Newkirk Ave (Q) 2,653,078
151. 86 St (R) 2,629,895
152. Spring St (C,E) 2,605,513 [75% of ridership]
..................................................
153. 67 Ave (G,R,V) 2,588,095
154. 167 St (B,D) 2,582,380
155. Queensboro Plaza (7,N,W) 2,571,670
156. DeKalb Ave (L) 2,561,678
157. Kingsbridge Rd (4) 2,551,108
158. 231 St (1,9) 2,492,482
159. 116 St (2,3) 2,488,280
160. 18 St (1,9) 2,474,448
161. Grand Army Plaza (2,3) 2,466,763
162. 167 St (4) 2,463,161
163. Newkirk Ave (2,5) 2,399,728
164. Mosholu Pkwy (4) 2,388,031
165. Prospect Park (Q,S) 2,371,966
166. Tremont Ave (B,D) 2,370,607
167. Queens Plaza (E,G,R,V) 2,368,532
168. 207 St-Inwood (A) 2,347,369
169. 169 St (F) 2,346,676
170. 7 Ave (Q) 2,317,388
171. Greenpoint Ave (G) 2,301,183
172. 170 St (4) 2,273,288
173. 45 Rd- Court House Sq (7) 2,247,436
174. Kingsbridge Rd (B,D) 2,226,203
175. 205 St-Norwood (D) 2,219,039
176. Rector St (N,R,W) 2,163,306
177. 96 St (B,C) 2,162,723
178. Nassau Ave (G) 2,155,561
179. Lefferts Blvd-Ozone Park (A) 2,152,471
180. Hoyt St (2,3) 2,148,500
181. Simpson St (2,5) 2,144,214
182. 72 St (B,C) 2,140,202
183. 53 St (N,R) 2,122,863
184. Dyckman St (1) 2,106,242
185. Graham Ave (L) 2,081,089
186. Northern Blvd (G,R,V) 2,054,531
187. Bay Ridge Ave (R) 2,054,052
188. 36 Ave (N,W) 2,054,014
189. Central Park North-110 St (2,3) 2,052,134
190. 21 St-Queensbridge (F) 2,043,819
191. Sutter Ave-Rutland Rd (3) 2,042,356
192. Lawrence St-MetroTech (M,N,R,W) 2,040,890
193. 8 Ave (N) 2,028,427
194. Pelham Pkwy (2,5) 2,013,303
195. Ave X (F) 2,009,044
196. Ave U (Q) 1,993,260
197. 52 St (7) 1,989,342
198. 45 St (N,R) 1,977,667
199. Stillwell Ave-Coney Island (W) 1,957,321
200. Castle Hill Ave (6) 1,957,022
201. Dyckman St (A) 1,860,921
202. Winthrop St (2,5) 1,858,567
203. 170 St (B,D) 1,852,171
204. Rockaway Blvd (A) 1,850,703
205. Morrison-Sound View Aves (6) 1,822,526
206. Myrtle Ave (J,M,Z) 1,807,114
207. Grand St (S) 1,799,917
208. Parson Blvd (Hillside Ave) (F) 1,799,855
209. Grant Ave (A) 1,794,294
210. E. Tremont Ave-W Farms Sq (2,5) 1,793,197
211. Elder Ave (6) 1,781,097
212. 125 St (1,9) 1,769,246
213. Franklin St (1,9) 1,765,348
214. Flushing Ave (J,M) 1,763,948
215. Vernon Blvd-Jackson Ave (7) 1,748,051
216. Canal St (1,9) 1,735,002
217. 3 Ave-138 St (6) 1,731,873
218. Bay Pkwy (M,W) 1,731,565
219. 15 St-Prospect Park (F) 1,722,747
220. Brook Ave (6) 1,699,350
221. 183 St (4) 1,696,523
222. Cathedral Pkwy-110 St (B,C) 1,694,385
223. Grand St (L) 1,693,318
224. Van Wyck Blvd-Briarwood (E,F) 1,693,134
225. Rector St (1,9) 1,687,908
226. Ave J (Q) 1,685,259
227. 69 St (7) 1,684,620
228. Prospect Ave (2,5) 1,671,719
229. Marcy Ave (J,M,Z) 1,667,630
230. Sterling St (2,5) 1,661,337
231. Rockaway Ave (3) 1,647,397
232. Cortelyou Rd (Q) 1,630,550
233. 242 St-Van Cortlandt Park (1,9) 1,628,825
234. Bedford Park Blvd (B,D) 1,628,650
235. Hunters Point Ave (7) 1,626,563
236. Pennsylvania Ave (3) 1,621,255
237. Broad St (J,M,Z) 1,609,132
238. Roosevelt Island (F) 1,596,306
239. Pelham Bay Park (6) 1,589,658
240. Saratoga Ave (3) 1,585,376
241. E. 180 St (2,5) 1,584,669
242. Union St (M,N,R) 1,579,915
243. High St (A,C) 1,559,735
244. Westchester Square-E. Tremont Ave (6) 1,530,276
245. Prospect Ave (M,N,R) 1,529,293
246. Ave M (Q) 1,520,191
247. Gun Hill Rd (5) 1,519,852
248. Parkside Ave (Q) 1,495,676
249. Kingston Ave (3) 1,479,024
250. Bedford Park Blvd-Lehman College (4) 1,466,841
251. Woodlawn (4) 1,466,327
252. New Lots Ave (3) 1,460,769
253. 182-183 Sts (B,D) 1,457,899
254. Allerton Ave (2,5) 1,447,198
255. 174-175 Sts (B,D) 1,428,348
256. Kingston-Throop Aves (C) 1,427,296
257. Mt Eden Ave (4) 1,422,197
258. 9 Ave (M,W) 1,420,577
259. 116 St (B,C) 1,411,950
260. Jamaica-Van Wyck (E) 1,411,352
261. 176 St (4) 1,404,962
262. 95 St-Bay Ridge (R) 1,385,909 [90% of ridership]
.............................................
263. Clinton Washington Aves (C) 1,379,917
264. Franklin Ave (Fulton St) (C,S) 1,378,885
265. 103 St (B,C) 1,377,253
266. Ditmas Ave (F) 1,358,574
267. New Utrecht Ave/62 St (M,N,W) 1,357,594
268. 79 St (M,W) 1,356,555
269. Halsey St (L) 1,352,244
270. Clark St (2,3) 1,348,826
271. 207 St (1,9) 1,345,126
272. Sutphin Blvd (Hillside Ave) (F) 1,344,338
273. Willets Point-Shea Stadium (7) 1,339,982
274. Clinton-Washington Aves (G) 1,329,916
275. Montrose Ave (L) 1,325,136
276. Ft Hamilton Pkwy (N) 1,320,533
277. Gun Hill Rd (2,5) 1,312,904
278. 3 Ave (L) 1,310,781
279. Crescent St (J,Z) 1,282,121
280. 233 St (2,5) 1,276,372
281. 190 St (A) 1,273,650
282. Lafayette Ave (C) 1,253,974
283. Far Rockaway-Mott Ave (A) 1,245,248
284. Beverly Rd (2,5) 1,240,492
285. Bergen St (2,3) 1,240,082
286. 18 Ave (F) 1,236,766
287. Fort Hamilton Pkwy (F) 1,229,337
288. Ralph Ave (C) 1,223,033
289. Bay Pkwy (N) 1,222,385
290. 77 St (R) 1,221,606
291. Nostrand Ave (3) 1,219,725
292. Rockaway Ave (C) 1,210,368
293. 18 Ave (M,W) 1,207,980
294. Eastern Pkwy-Brooklyn Museum (2,3) 1,205,671
295. E. 149 St (6) 1,205,274
296. Halsey St (J) 1,187,842
297. Jackson Ave (2,5) 1,184,105
298. Gates Ave (J,Z) 1,179,022
299. Fresh Pond Rd (M) 1,167,763
300. 20 Ave (M,W) 1,151,845
301. Bedford-Nostrand Aves (G) 1,143,236
302. 225 St-Marble Hill (1,9) 1,136,316
303. Kings Highway (F) 1,133,572
304. 71 St (M,W) 1,131,547
305. 75 Ave (E,F) 1,131,027
306. Smith-9 Sts (F,G) 1,129,229
307. Jefferson St (L) 1,115,693
308. 241 St-Wakefield (2) 1,114,388
309. 25 Ave (W) 1,113,269
310. *174 St (2,5) 1,110,688
311. 18 Ave (N) 1,109,185
312. St Lawrence Ave (6) 1,103,197
313. 25 St (M,N,R) 1,096,718
314. 155 St (B,D) 1,096,008
315. York St (F) 1,093,788
316. 163 St-Amsterdam Ave (C) 1,082,718
317. Myrtle-Willoughby Ave (G) 1,057,087
318. Howard Beach-JFK Airport (A) 1,056,238
319. *191 St (1,9) 1,055,872
320. 135 St (B,C) 1,052,309
321. Fort Hamilton Pkwy (M,W) 1,050,651
322. 80 St (A) 1,035,918
323. 85 St-Forest Pkwy (J) 1,009,608
324. Ave N (F) 1,002,106
325. President St (2,5) 988,828
326. Neck Rd (Q) 984,884
327. 75 St (J,Z) 982,298
328. Woodhaven Blvd (J,Z) 978,733
329. Dyre Ave-Eastchester (5) 970,739
330. Kings Highway (N) 962,908
331. 36 St (G,R,V) 962,170
332. 225 St (2,5) 959,801
333. Metropolitan Ave-Middle Village (M) 959,474
334. Baychester Ave (5) 957,821
335. Broadway (G) 955,062
336. Forest Ave (M) 947,228
337. Morgan Ave (L) 937,330
338. Classon Ave (G) 937,288
339. Freeman St (2,5) 928,837
340. 50 St (M,W) 915,679
341. Longwood Ave (6) 914,897
342. 65 St (G,R,V) 913,298
343. Liberty Ave (C) 900,216
344. Burke Ave (2,5) 885,592
345. 20 Ave (N) 879,602
346. Lorimer St (J,M) 876,627
347. Knickerbocker Ave (M) 874,095
348. Cypress Ave (6) 862,613
349. Norwood Ave (J,Z) 861,177
350. 238 St (1) 841,086
351. Sutter Ave (L) 830,910
352. New Lots Ave (L) 824,957
353. Ave P (F) 823,420
354. 148 St-Harlem (3) 819,550
355. Nereid Ave-238 St (2,5) 817,458
356. Kosciusko St (J) 808,385
357. Cleveland St (J)804,319
358. Van Siclen Ave (3) 794,434
359. 145 St (3) 786,653
360. Beverley Rd (Q) 784,967
361. E.105 St (L) 764,503
362. Shepherd Ave (C) 762,284
363. 111 St (A) 753,474
364. Wilson Ave (L) 748,585
365. 219 St (2,5) 747,099
366. 138 St-Grand Concourse (4,5) 742,376
367. Ave I (F) 738,137
368. Hewes St (J.M) 725,563
369. Van Siclen Ave (C) 720,439
370. Ave H (Q) 718,488
371. Ave U (N) 714,949
372. Fulton St (G) 710,084
373. Pelham Pkwy (5) 694,114
374. 88 St (A) 689,474
375. 111 St (J) 687,681
376. Alabama Ave (J) 682,934
377. Ave U (F) 682,742
378. Intervale Ave (2,5) 676,763
379. Van Siclen Ave (J,Z) 669,550
380. Buhre Ave (6) 663,511
381. 155 St (C) 646,526
382. Bay 50 St (W) 628,364
383. 104 St (J,Z) 627,813
384. 55 St (M,W) 614,438
385. Flushing Ave (G) 603,868
386. Chauncey St (J,Z) 601,794
387. Beach 60 St (A) 587,757
388. Bronx Park East (2,5) 583,895
389. 39 Ave (N,W) 580,182
390. Seneca Ave (M) 578,499
391. 86 St (N) 564,100
392. Park Place (S) 562,378
393. Zerega Ave (6) 560,781
394. Junius St (3) 559,547
395. 104 St (A) 546,578
396. Bowery (J,M) 531,553
397. 121 St (J,Z) 525,808
398. Livonia Ave (L) 513,602
399. Central Ave (M) 488,636
400. Bay Pkwy (F) 478,961
401. Beach 25 St (A) 472,368
402. Beach 67 St (A) 442,287
403. 215 St (1) 439,168
404. Morris Park (5) 433,831
405. Whitlock Ave (6) 402,958
406. Middletown Rd (6) 401,787
407. Cypress Hills (J) 394,158
408. Beach 90 St (A,S) 302,875
409. Rockaway Park-Beach 116 St (A,S) 287,671
410. E. 143 St-St Mary's St (6) 278,239
411. Bushwick Ave-Aberdeen St (L) 260,328
412. Beach 98 St (A,S) 258,467
413. 21 St (G) 241,230
414. Atlantic Ave (L) 231,472
415. Aqueduct-N Conduit Ave (A) 223,599
416. Beach 36 St (A) 179,190
417. Beach 44 St (A) 116,074
418. Broad Channel (A,S) 91,353
419. Beach 105 St (A,S) 78,973
420. Aqueduct Racetrack (A) 33,714
System Total 1,385,124,768
* Stations closed due to renovations
191 St (1,9) Closed from 7/1/03 to 12/31/03
174 St (2,5) Closed from 8/23/03 to 11/24/03
Junction Blvd elevator installation
74 Street station rehabilitation
NYCDOT rebuilding the bridge over the BQE
continuing signal work until 2005-06
On our CBS outlet station in Baltmore, there was a quick item about a subway problem. Video showed thick black smoke billowing out of a station stairway, but I didn't catch the location.
NOBODY that frequents SubTalk posted anything about it. Considering that most Talkers live in the New York area, that's strange.
Michael
Washington, DC
Peace,
ANDEE
I didn't catch all the item, but since it was a ConEd transformer, looks like TV got it wrong again.
Peace,
ANDEE
Of course, had this occurrence been in London, the statement "An underground transformer caught fire" **would** have implied that the transformer in question belonged to the rapid transit system. Divided by a common language......
"We looked up and saw black smoke coming out of the subway," said Indiana tourist Charles Stout, 48, who was evacuated from the 34th Street Howard Johnson's around 9:30am.
I guess he could have "looked up" from his meal and saw the smoke at street level, but otherwise I would think you would look down or at least straight ahead to see the smoke "coming from the subway."
Further proff that it was not coming from the subway is that the article states "subway service was not affected."
The item wasn't repeated on the 11 PM local news (WJZ-TV, Channel 13 - CBS in Baltimore) so must have been a low priority item.
Mark
I don’t think it was very healthy though—I wouldn’t like to breathe the combustion products of PCBs!
As Dand124 said, it wasn't that bad because so many people got scared and took vacation time or made other arrangements rather than commuting into the city.
I'm "telecommuting" myself for two days (T&WT on WCBS today too), then heading out-of-town Wed-Fri since my commute from suburban northwest Boston to Cambridge would be a hassle.
Two points:
1) Large events well publicized in advance are not a problem, because people can work around them.
2) The economic impact of such events is overstated, because of the lost economic activity that would have taken place if so many people had not avoided the area.
Olympics? Jet Stadium? As for the latter, most of the economic benefits have nothing to do with the stadium, but rather with the rest of the development facilitated by the upzoning and subway extension.
But the Olympics will clearly displace some economic activity, even though the transit system could handle both it and a normal workday (the plan is to run rush hour service all day and schedule event start/end times off peak), because it would suck up all the hotel rooms.
Security concerns post 9/11 may have also have tipped the economic cost/benefit for events like these, as compared a similar number of people attracted to smaller events over time, events that are less likely to draw the interest of Osama Bin Laden.
Kim Jong-Il!
Slobodan Milosevic!
Robert Mugabe!
Manuel Noriega!
Crown Prince Abdullah! (Oh wait, those are our friends, despite 15/19 of the 9/11 hijackers being from his country).
Exploding toilet bowls!
Lesbian Communists from Bulgaria!
Stem Cells!
Liberace!
"Uncomfirmed attacks may happen at (fill in blank)"
Use some logic here, in the weeks after 9-11 he was constantly releasing videotape of himself in some filthy cave or other, after many of those caves were blown apart all we get is some arab voice talking into a cheap cassett recorder. I'll grant that they are atleast smart enough to make the recordings poor enough to foil any real effort to verify this voice.
Everytime one of these tapes surfaces the CIA takes a few days and pronounces them "probably" real. Classic civil service CYA for the future when the truth finally emerges.
Bin Laden, dead, is still a useful animal on both sides: He inspires other equally filthy and frustrated arabs to believe that they can destroy Western Civilization.
He serves a Bogeyman to justify enormous expenditures on military and policing and, as a side "benefit" to "the Right" gives cover to abridgement of civil rights.
I don't mean to belittle the struggle we, and the World are in against radical Islam, it's a scourge that will be with us probably for decades just as the Cold War was, it's just too bad that once again the first casualty was the truth.
Please?????
David
While many of us try to keep the political angles RELEVANT, I can see where this one could be considered topical for the above-captioned reason.
If only I had a dollar for every post you've started like this and then went on to say what you wanted to say anyhow...
While many of us try to keep the political angles RELEVANT
Not you...
I can see where this one could be considered topical for the above-captioned reason.
I don't. There are so many better places to discuss stuff like this...As in Harry's Off Topic board, or anywhere else but here.
No - too difficult to get a big effect. Much better (from their point of view, not ours) to blow up a truck in Times Square.
"Planted in their minds by Ridge et al that TODAY might be their "last ride?"
I think most Subtalkers are too sensible to allow Tom Ridge to plant things in their minds. So are 98% of other New Yorkers.
Unfortunately, the paranoid 2% make things miserable for everyone else.
I did mention the comment on Tom Ridge from a Pennsylvania railfan I know. "We got rid of him."
Don't do much farming, do you. We have three square miles of pasture under our fence, and that is a small spread for hearabouts. Those as who have 4 to 10 square miles of cropland can easily use (and buy with no problem) any amout of fertilizer. And BTW: They also require large quantities of diesel fuel for their operations too.
BOOM!
Back to subways-buses-terrorism, I am almost 48 and old enough to vividly remember the last great wave of domestic terror. The purps here were SDS, Weathermen, Panthers, FALN, all home grown. You may also remember that the subways were considered a prime target and often stations and trains were evacuated when "suspicious" packages got spoted.
Bomb scares were common in the late '60s- early '70s even my school's 1971 spring concert was evacuated while the bomb squad checked under and above the auditorium. Radio station WABC got so many that they made a filler tape to cover when they had to leave 1330 6th ave.
By 1975 when FALN blew up Fraunces Tavern it seemed that the trains were off the screen.
Frankly, I am surprised and relieved that we havn't seen the "human bomb" scenerio but as someone who rides 2-4 times a week, mostly late nights, the slow resurgence of human flotsam, aggressive baggars (had to punch one in the face to stop him folowing me at 59th on the A) The increasing amount of vandalism with hammers, lighters, scratching devices. I think that police resources had better be refocused on these issues.
Osama..he be moldering....
Hint to the foamers, Al Jazeera altered the picture. That sucker is only TWO CARS! That's the reason why the end of the first car is cut off. And why it seems to show a station where that train never goes (at least in revenue) ... *HMMMMMM*. (grin)
Now if we could JUST get that boy some good old BMT woodies. Oh wait, he's off the street, he's already GOT a woodie. =O
I agree with you on this one. He's almost certainly dead.
Back to subways-buses-terrorism, I am almost 48 and old enough to vividly remember the last great wave of domestic terror. The purps here were SDS, Weathermen, Panthers, FALN, all home grown. You may also remember that the subways were considered a prime target and often stations and trains were evacuated when "suspicious" packages got spoted.
How quickly we forget. No one today seems to remember that terrorism did NOT begin on 9/11.
Bomb scares were common in the late '60s- early '70s even my school's 1971 spring concert was evacuated while the bomb squad checked under and above the auditorium. Radio station WABC got so many that they made a filler tape to cover when they had to leave 1330 6th ave.
I remember a bunch from that time period, all the way up in Connecticut.
Frankly, I am surprised and relieved that we havn't seen the "human bomb" scenerio but as someone who rides 2-4 times a week, mostly late nights, the slow resurgence of human flotsam, aggressive baggars (had to punch one in the face to stop him folowing me at 59th on the A) The increasing amount of vandalism with hammers, lighters, scratching devices. I think that police resources had better be refocused on these issues.
Exactly!
"Welcome to the SubTalk bulletin board at www.nycsubway.org. This board can be used for discussions of rail transit systems worldwide. It is not limited solely to New York City topics, but please stick to rapid/rail transit issues only. This is not "WorldPoliticsTalk"! Posts deemed off-topic, harrassing, inciteful, etc. will be removed at the discretion of the management. Please note! This site is not run by MTA New York City Transit!"
Note the presence (in the correct order) of the words, "PLEASE STICK TO RAPID/RAIL TRANSIT ISSUES ONLY" and "THIS IS NOT 'WORLDPOLITICSTALK!'," placed there by the moderator, David Pirmann.
Note also the new words of wisdom below the space used for typing replies: "Before posting.. think twice! Is this post on-topic? Polite? Please help keep the Talks a pleasant place to visit."
'Nuff said.
David
I almost e-mailed you the local temp this morning, but I got busy.
In my part of the city a lot of traffic control is being handled by Rhode Island State Troopers (usually working with one Mass car). Cops are being visible rather than aggressive.
MBTA service is normal with ridership light.
I've seen only one RTS out of Cabot all week so CNG buses are holding up.
Arborway has been all CNG for some time so no changes there.
Quincy (where buses go to die) is operating its usual fleet of older RTSs. No apparent new arrivals with the possible exception of some 8600s from Cabot
Traffic everywhere has ben light, both on the major streets and the lesser known ones. Many daily backups haven't happened at all.
I have a feeling that next Monday will be the real hassle, as the usual suspects all return.
The problem for the city seems to be loss of business as there are no tourists in town and no regulars. There just aren't enough DNC types around to fill all the restaurant tables, bar stools and theatre seats. On a scale of 1 - 10 I would give traffic a 9 and business a 1, so its a no win situation.
Live from Roslindale...
Gerry
I think the security issues were overemphasized, causing an overreaction among the general population. Now it is NYC's turn, but you folks have done this before...
The biggest problem is that neither convention was necessary given the fact that we know who the candidates are (and have for some time). Now back in the days when the conventions started with no candidate holding a majority, and a big platform fight looming - it was a fun event. Now the smoke filled rooms are designated non-smoking areas. ;)
Gerry
That's bad from the bean-counters' perspective.
I'm one of them -- I'm now on a biz trip myself out-of-town, purposely scheduled this week to avoid the DNC.
But seriously though, I am not at all surprised they did that for Logan Express passengers. Anderson is an important intermodal center and considering that many of the buses eventually go to Logan that would make sense to screen those heading there ahead of time.
(and like Boston, NOTHING will happen - Osama WANTS Shrub re-elected and will NEVER screw with the election in order to get HIS boy back in) [see "Fahrenheit 9/11 to *SEE* why Osama is ON the Bush PAYROLL] :(
Just because others are overreacting is no reason to join in.
And what exactly happens if Shrub and Cheney AREN'T killed by liberals ummm ... terrorists and the GOP coronation occurs with out event? Well, then they cancel elections anyway because it's GOT to be a terrorist plot.
From what I'm told by National Guard people who are protecting Iraq INSTEAD of the "prime target" ... if a terrorist attack were to be planned for New York, then the New York GUARD would be in New York to GUARD AGAINST IT! Can't happen therefore, go on with your lives, this was all "weapons of mass distraction" or else we'd still HAVE a "New York Guard." All's WELL, please return to your homes, nothing to see here. :)
Your pal,
Fred
We don’t believe that high-profile, make the geese wait, inconvenience them to hell “security” searches make one iota of difference.
Imagine if someone set off a smoke bomb inside Penn during the convention. If the police don't evacuate the delegates, the police brass and politicians will get blamed for being insufficiently cautious. If they do evacuate everyone, they'll also get blamed.
Conclusion: make sure NOTHING untoward, even something totally harmless, happens. The last thing politicians want is blame.
Yeah, I suppose I must be losing it. After all, the job of fighting terrorism in New York is NYPD's problem, not the New York National Guard who's over yonder making sure Halliburton is safe. After all, what could POSSIBLY happen in New York City? Gotta love that GOP logic. Then again, I watched Ron Reagan on TV a little while ago and it finally dawned on me what the problem is. Heh.
I arrived on the Bus from Boston between 12 and 1 PM. I bought a one week unlimited ride metrocard and got on a southbound A train at 42nd street and transfer for the j train at Broadway/Nassau the singage within the station is very bad and it took me forever to find my way to the right platform. I got on Jamaica bound train, we had to hold at Chambers so I got out and looked at the station and it was as bad as Iv'e heard. I got back on the J train and took it to Jamaica Center the ride was interesting but slow. At Jamaica Center I transfered for an E train. I was amazed by how bad the station was considering that it is one of the newest in the system. I rode the E train to 5th Avenue (the escalator the is one of the slowest iv ever been on) got out walked around midtown for a bit and got a bit to eat. I got on an R train at 57th Street and rode it to Whitehall where I got off. I walled to PATH WTC and got on I got off at Exchange Place and checked in to my hotel. I then took PATH back to WTC and transferred to the W train half the seats on the train were open till I got off at Queensboro Plaza where I got on a 7 express. I got off at Willets Point so I could buy tickets for the Mets game. After buying the tickets I got back on the 7 to main street Flushing. I walked around Flushing a bit the rode the 7 back to Willets Point. I found the Mets game enjoyable and loved the fireworks after it. I got on the 7 train again and took it to 74th Street/Broadway where I transferred for the F train. The IND station was awful although it looks like they were doing some work on it. I rode the F train to 57th Street where I got off walked to times square and had a late dinner. I rode the E train to WTC then took PATH to my hotel. On Saturday I attend the MOD Rockaway trip and found if very enjoyable ridding the BU cars over Jamaica bay was a lot of fun. On I went on the MOD trip on Sunday to and enjoyed it as well. I got back to Boston at 11:15 Sunday night the track work on the Orange line made the trip back to Oak Grove a lot longer than usual. I enjoyec the MOD trips a lot and will attend another one once I get the chance.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/story/216145p-186034c.html
-Lino
76th Street
How about the SubTalk™ Alabama Ave Launchpad?
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Your pal,
Pepsi
Your pal,
Coors
"Station stop is HALLIBURTON street, next stop is Halliburton Street, change for the M train to Halliburton Street where you can connect to the N train to Halliburton Sreet, this is a number 6 ENRON train to CHENEY PLAZA, Borough of Dole ... watch the closing doors please."
Yeah, I like the ring to it. "This is a TRUMP N TRAIN to MARTHA STEWART AVENUE, no flashes please" ... dumbasses. :(
aaarrrgh...
Your pal,
Bayer
Peace,
ANDEE
Sorry if it's OT.
But I couldn't resist saying that.
--Mark
--Mark
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
LOL
:-) Broadway Buffer
-Bredaway Buffer
Or the Fitzgerald & Fitzgerald F train - we fight for brain damaged kids.
I can see it now..."next stop is 42nd st Disney Square,transfer to the KFC line,the Pepsi line,the Disney Bus Terminal,and Disney Shuttle to Met Life Terminal....
Some things are just too dumb to understand...
-Broadway Buffer
TIMES Square is already a corporate sponsorship, even if it was 100 years ago.
And with the one liner for tampa. They sell station names. You can "buy" a streetcar. You can "buy" a bench, and other usual ads. Anythings for sale pretty much.
So, Delta TSQ Shuttle = Stupid. Now, renaming the D Train to the "Delta Train" (with the little Delta Symbol) would be highly clever.
Also, when dealing with these naming rights it needs to be stipulated that the buyer of the ad space gets no say as to the actions of the MTA so if the MTA takes some stand against Delta they can't go any demand their money back as long as the train is so named.
Nike N Train
Greenpoint Bank G Train. Switch the bullet to the Greepoint Bank Logo.
Mcdonalds M train. The bullet changed to the McDonalds M, but with the same brown background.
Windham Hotel W Train.
Why not the W Hotel W train?
Hey - how about taking up a collection so Fred can buy it and rename it the "Sea Beach Express" ;-)
Windham Hotel W Train
I have to try and hit LOTTO so I can buy that one - reroute it to the West End again and rename it the "T" ;-)
It's Wyndham, but there's a hotel called W. Super-upscale ad part of the Starwood chain. You got 2 or 3 actually wherne there's only about 10 in the us.
"W" hotels present to you, the W train.
I just really hope this doesn't work. Once subway naming rights are sold, then what will they do?
A recent song from the Capitol Steps is this one, not yet available on CD.
Spoken: Ladies and gentlemen, as you probably know, many corporations now sponsor sports stadiums, arenas, and parks and renamed them. With all the states in budget crisises, it might just be a matter of time until we have a brand new America. So now we would like to bring you just a few thoughts on what the future might hold:"
To the tune of "This Land is My Land":
This land's not my land, I'm from Rhode Island,
But now Rhode Island, is called Rhode Ryland.
And Tenessee now, is Tenesseed-Grows.
This land was bought from you and me.
As I was walking, in Oklahoma,
I saw it's now called, Okla-Home Depot,
And Idaho now, is Idaho-hose
This land was made by Sarah Lee.
But it gets worse now, some NBA star,
Has bought bought Wyoming, it's now Wy-Yao Ming,
So now won't someone, please buy New Jersey,
We hear the naming rights are free.
Spoken: Ladies and gentlemen, we can go on and on with ideas for new names for states like New Texaco, North Toyota, and New York Peppermint Patty. But honestly we get a bit sentimental about the selling of this great land of ours.
Now to the tune of "America the Beautiful":
Oh Beautiful for spacious sky, box seats on top Mount Hood,
We can't address our budget mess, but corporations could
America, America, our country needs its ???,
We're not appalled, we will soon be called, the Halliburton Steps.
I can't figure out that one word but you all get the idea...
Radio commercials? What are those?
--
Satisfied XM Satellite Radio customer
But if i drank starbucks, i'd boycott them, and taco bell's close to going on the list if they keep this up!
I am worried that radio's going to end up being like cable if XM picks up. Have to pay but get the commericals, and with clearchannel sized companies,who knows.
Let me tell you about radio ads. The gym where I go plays a local urban contemporary station ("Party 105") fairly loudly over the speakers. About a week ago, the station started a commercial break just as I began running on the treadmill. Out of curiosity, I decided to time the length of the ads, using the treadmill's timer. Eight and a half minutes!
7 Train can be local, 11 can be express, then you'll have 7-11 line. Perfect. They have money.
The D is worse, in it's old Brighton routing and it's new West End routing. Too many mergings. The 4/5/6 are far worse during rush hours than any line in the system.
But it isn't your #6 and 7 lines.
W Broadway Local
Also I think the A is just as bad - even an occasional c train beats it {on 8th Av} - Brooklyn is anohter story
Posted on:7/27/04 8:43:34 AM
Due to a Police investigation at 79th Street, service on the 1 & 9 lines is suspended from Times Square-42nd Street to 137th Street; the 3 line is suspended from Times Square-42nd Street to 96th Street; and the 2 is running on the 5 line from 149th Street-Grand Concourse to Nevins Street.
Service Alert
Posted on:7/27/04 8:57:48 AM
Due to a Police investigation on the Williamsburg Bridge, J & Z service is suspended from Delancey-Essex Streets to Marcy Avenue, while the M is suspended from Delancey-Essex Streets to Myrtle Avenue.
MTA New York City Transit
Service Alert
Posted on:7/27/04 9:07:34 AM
Due to a Police investigation on the Williamsburg Bridge, J & Z service is suspended from Delancey-Essex Streets to Marcy Avenue, while the M is suspended from Delancey-Essex Streets to Myrtle Avenue.
Also, due to a Police investigation at 79th Street, 1 & 9 service is suspended from Times Square-42nd Street to 137th Street; 3 service is suspended from Times Square-42nd Street to 96th Street; and the 2 is running on the 5 line from 149th Street-Grand Concourse to Nevins Street.
If they left their lunch on a bench, it's a terror alert.
If they lost their lunch on a bench, it's a biohazard alert.
Link here
Sounds like a mistake.
I'm sure the NYPD is innundated with suspicious packages. They probably investigated this one and couldn't rule out that it wasn't the real thing without taking the more drastic measure of closing down the line and the station.
Ladies and gentlemen, the war on terror is lost. The terrorists have won. I'm moving to Antarctica ...
Maybe I'll join ya there...
Haven't you heard? There is an anarchist group that is proposing to smear gunpowder (or other things that bomb-sniffing dogs sniff for) on packages and leave those lying around the city during the convention.
The best solution is to go about your business, and if one subway line closes down, go over to another.
I'm not changing my routine for the convention, that's for sure. The city will be nice and peaceful as long as you stay away from the garden and the demonstrations.
Ha ha, that's a good one!
BTW,
The 6 goes to 51 Street. But that's on the East Side!
#3 West End Jeff
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
#3 West End Jeff
Thanks in advance for your replies.
Hey guy, next time you want information be upfront and tell us who you are.
And considering you work for a news agency please don't be offended if anyone here asks what you need the information for.
What do you need the information for?
Why would a news report bother asking the question on an unofficial fan forum? Why not just call the public affairs departments at Amtrak or NJTransit?
I am definitly going to report this "Manuel Smith".
Seems like a question a terrorist would ask.
LOL, Good one!
LOL I'm gonna hold you responsible if I pee myself reading a post like that! :)
That makes sense.
There have been a number of requests for information from members of the media over the past year. You have to understand the reaction in here to seeing your email address.
Your reaction only. You don't speak for everyone here.
It depends on the type of question. It makes sense asking railfans for such things as their opinions on an upcoming fare hike or for historical background information. When the question is fact-based and involves current facilities or operations, however, it's best directed to official channels.
Right, but the question was not for a story -- it was just to satisfy his own curiosity. I don't think NJT or AmTrak would be too pleased to have someone calling them to ask a "just curious" question. ;)
Nonsense. They are fine with it. That's what they get paid for. They may be very busy and not able to answer your question this second, but they do get back to you. If you ask politely and are patient, you will be rewarded.
A drawer of correspondence to me doesn't lie. :0)
The people the media have access to are media relations folks who usually are working with reporters who are on deadline in addition to any breaking news that might be happening with their agencies. I can assure you that they would not like me to call with just questions of interest......
I'm just a railfan who passes through the station this morning. It's not a work related question......just asking as a railfan.
BOB
So what if your handle has no e-mail link.
:0)
Considering this board is somewhat "monitored" by the MTA (and who knows who else) we have to be a bit careful about what questions get answered.
And besides some of those reporters expect us (the group) to do thier research for them.
If you don't want to answer a question posted, that's your business. If someone else wants to be nice and accommodating and post an answer, that's his/her business.
"And besides some of those reporters expect us (the group) to do thier research for them."
And tourists who come visiting this site expect "us" to give them information they could just as easily get by consulting a combination of MTA's website, MapQuest, or the very good trip planner the Strappies provided on their board.
I apologize if I hurt your feelings, but I find your tone and attitude a bit juvenile.
He gave you his name and his employers name. How much more upfront do you want the guy to be?
If anyone cared to do 30 seconds of research, they'd have seen that this person has posted 38 times in the last 18 months on a variety of subjects -- sometimes asking questions, sometimes answering and sometimes speculating (i.e. no different than your average SubTalker).
It really doesn't take that much effort to restrain oneself from inserting foot into mouth. I find DCrazy's suggestion that some of the hostility comes from the particular organization this person works for to be likely right on target.
CG
I'd like to see Fox News do an expose on the fact that mass transit and dense, diverse, mixed-use cities were a product of the free market, whereas post-WWII auto-oriented, segregated suburbs were a product of government intervention. There are actually a few (real) conservatives who have figured this out and have written about it.
Most conservatives don't get it. Most liberal city planners don't either, though some of the "New Urbanists" do. Others hate it when I ask why they want more government land use regulation to help create the type of place the market itself produced in its absence.
My favorite buzzword for those who profit from America's auto/oil enslavement is WELFARE CLIENT. If the problem is to ever be really fixed, it will be fixed by the RIGHT -- REALLY!
www.trolleycar.org
avid
What I notice in my region is, tax development zones, expensive parkways, leading to more taxing and impact fee's to build some subdivsions(they just raised taxes and talking about doing it again), whereas those places on the TECO trolley, LOTs of places, and downtown orladno, the demand is so great they can't make enough, and I'm unsure of ANY of this going on for them. The streets some of them are going on are over a 100 years old, mostly still have the brick underneath, and in my region was build by and not before the railroads were actually tracks before streets.
Very interesting.
If you look at transportation today, you see gasoline taxes paid by motorists used, in part, to subsidize mass transit. That's because mass transit has declined, in most of the country, to an expensive social service for those to old, poor or sick to drive.
BUT if you you go back to the 1940s, 1950s, and 1960s you see a different pattern (I have a copy of the Historical Statistics of the United States, a fun book for those with my interests). Transit and railroad companies were paying taxes used for roads, even as they declined.
I believe that were it not for the massive zoning/infrastructure intervention after WWII, post-war suburbs might have evolved like pre-war railroad suburbs. Private roadbuilders would have financed their construction by building dense communities near tolled exits.
These roads would have been narrow, to minimize land costs, and so would have been served by buses during rush hours, to maximize capacity and revenue. High tolls would have dicouraged private cars during peak hours; lower tolls would have encouraged "Sunday Driving" to get off peak revenues.
Since the suburban streets themselves were not tolled, they would have been narrowed, and houses would have been placed close together, to cut land costs. Perhaps not rowhouses, perhaps detached houses on narrow lots, with two families permitted, around 15 units per acre. Compared with four units per acre in 1960s suburbs, one or two acre lots REQUIRED in many suburbs today.
All the opposites of the new urbanists developments.
(All the opposites of the new urbanists developments.)
Actually, the New Urbanist developments would be even more bunched up, but there would be more non-residential uses in close proximity, sidewalks, square blocks, and walkable-bikeable streets.
Cut the guy some slack.
Do you tell everyone here who YOU are?
"And considering you work for a news agency"
And considering you're just a (what? railbuff? shoe salesman? transit cop? college student? what?)
"please don't be offended if anyone here asks what you need the information for."
Not your business to decide that. If you want to look him up in published references and post who he is, that's fine too. But he (or she?) doesn't have to volunteer anything.
And if he is a newspaper guy, that's cool too.
This board has had lawyers drop in and ask questions about the system only to later reveal that they're working on cases, frequently against the MTA. The general attitude of this board is "piss off and do your own research".
The general attitude of this board is "piss off and do your own research".
Not true. Sometimes that's the answer; other times they get posts with useful information. And if they search the archives or go into other parts of this website, they have a wealth of material presented to them. Nothing wrong with that.
I'm a journalist. We're people, too. We have interests and hobbies outside of work. I'm a railfan. I read this site because I find it interesting. I doubt I'll be doing any subway stories in the near future, but even if I was, this site would be a great resource. Why? Not because I want someone else to "do my research for me," but because the people on this site are so knowledgable about the subject. If you can ask someone who knows something off the top of their head, it's better than trying to track it down. Anyone would say that, not just journalists.
Anyway, the reason he asked the question here is because he figured someone here might know. And someone did. He was just curious. Why must malicious intent be assumed?
Well, for one thing, it is being assumed of *us* when we're out with our cameras.
-Dave
Yes, and I don't think that's fair of MTA or anyone else to assume that people with cameras are a terrorist threat. I am a hobbyist photographer as well, and I took lots of pictures in the subway on vacation in NYC, so I guess they should just come get me now. :P
What I was talking about was how it seemed to be coming across that some people felt the original thread-starter was trying to dig something up for a big investigative piece or something, rather than just answering a curiosity. But now that that's cleared up I guess it doesn't really matter. ;)
If I offended anyone, and from the responses I see that I did, for that I will apologize.
--------------------
Posted by InfidelSlayerDude (osamabinladen@taliban.net) on Tue Jul 27 16:04:33 2004,
How's it hanging dudes?
Where is structurally weakest part of subway tunnel, the part that if struck by a runaway train, would most likely to cause collapse of the tunnel? I researching for a school project. Please send replies to email address.
Thanks You Cool American Dudes! Party On! Excellent!
Ozzy
Therefore I offer my scatterbrained thoughts to be chewed, pulled apart, slamed, trashed or enhanced, spicedup, expanded and put into conversation.
It is not to complicated, yet.
The Newlots Ave line is captured by the "B" division. All of the "A" division lines in Brooklyn near it , built to Dual contract Specs. will be merged in to the "B" division.
This idea is not so new or novel.
Read on McDuff.
Extend the Newlots Ave, line north providing a transfer to the Fulton Ave Line.
Continue north, merging with the Jamaica line in a wye configuration allowing service to go in either direction, towards Manhattan and to Jamaica Center, where access to the Queens Blvd line is available.
What is the gain?
A little more access for everyone, alternative routes , J I C of anything unforeseen happening.
Please comment and criticize, embelish or slam, just don't give any crap about NO MONEY.
Thats a given
avid reader
avid
avid
avid
Thanks in advance for the help.
Also: C, M, some trains on the A, some trains on the F, many trains on the W, some trains on the R, some trains on the L, one train on the Q, the Manhattan bound end of all 7 trains, and one or two 3 trains. Did I miss anything?
Hey, I didn't pick the domain name www.railfanwindow.com for nothing!
That should all change once the reconstruction at Corona is complete. Then we'll have an equal chance of having Flushing-bound end RFW's once again.
If I knew how to post photos I would post the only photo I have of the one I got.
< IMG SRC="image URL" >
to post a hyperlink:
< A HREF="URL" > Link text to appear in post < /A >
the latter of which appears as:
JPC's fascinating Link Du Jour
In general, any car on the B division (lettered lines) with corrugated metal on the sides, slanted ends, or a single metal waist band (with no others) is a good choice. This means the 60-footers, which are mostly found on the C, E, J, M, Z and B, usually the A and sometimes F, N and W, and one consist on the Q.
On the A division, you'll have your best luck on the 7 line, which occasionally run 62A singles with half-width cabs. More often than not, though, they have full-width cabs.
Beware of the R-142 and R-143 (the new cars running on the 2,4,5,6, L and weekend M) - they have full-width cabs equipped with Smear-O-Vision that will make the tunnel look wackier than anything you've seen since about 1974.
Click on the northbound G train to see it!
(Requires Windows Media 9 Codecs to view)
Here's a picture of the header information, with the text below.
Header Information:
N.Y.C.T.A. NO. 14-81-7356
SIDE ROUTE SIGN, DETAIL NO. 8
CONTRACTS R-27-30
P.O. 47105-086
HARLAM SILK SCREEN IND.
Readings (\ = Line break on exterior only; | = Line Break on both sides):
8 Avenue\Express
8 Avenue\Local
Avenue of Americas|(6 Avenue) Local
Shuttle
Avenue of Americas|(6 Avenue) Express
8 Avenue\Local
Avenue of Americas|(6 Avenue) Express
8 Avenue Local|Queens Express
Avenue of Americas Local|Queens Local*
Avenue of Americas Local|Queens Express*
Brooklyn-Queens|Crosstown Local
Rockaway\Shuttle
Nassau Street\Local
Nassau Street\Express
8 Avenue\Local
14 St-Canarsie\Local
Nassau Street\Local
Broadway\Express
Broadway\Local
Broadway\Local
Broadway\Express
Broadway\Local
Nassau Street\Local
Shuttle
Special
Not In Service
Note that the Yellow R-diamond appears on the sign, as opposed to the Brown R-diamond. The neighborhood map in the waiting room of the TAB (505 Fulton St, 6th Floor, Brooklyn) also has a Yellow R-diamond. Also note that there is no sign of the JFK Express or the PTUXY Group. Finally, the readings with the asterisk (*) next to them indicate that the word "Avenue" appears only on the interior reading. On the exterior reading, the abbreviation "Av" replaces that word.
wayne
The brown diamond R did not exist on any rollsign when the brown diamond R was in use (which was only for a 6 month period in 1987). By the time they showed up on later rollsigns in the 1988/89 time period, the route was eliminated.
thanks in advance
Current Rolling Stock: R-62, R-62A, R-142, R-142A. The 62 and 142 series are easily discriminated from one another.
The 62 series has the usual button-type trailblazer, whereas the 142's have the LED sign.
The 62's have a mechanical rollsign, while the 142s have LED rollsigns.
The 62's are numbered 1301-1625, and the 62A's are 1650-2475. Distinguishing 62's from 62A's is more tricky, and the only foolproof method I know of is to look at numbers (less than or greater than 1650)
The 142's are numbered 1101-1250 and 6301-7180, while the 142A's are 7211-2810. Again, go by numbers - less than or greater than 7200.
The R110A's have some transverse seating inside, which distinguishes them from any other A-division rolling stock current or recent. Numbered 8001-8010.
The 142's IIRC are mostly on the 2 and 5. The 62A's are mostly on the 1 and 7. The 62's are mostly on the 3 (along with some 62A's), and the 142A's are mostly on the 6. The 4 includes some of each type (as do the other lines though they're dominated by the specified types).
Redbirds (used up until recently): R26, R28, R29, R33, R36, R33WF, R36WF. Hint: They're all red (though there were other paint styles - the silverfox scheme, the Bluebird scheme, etc. The WF cars have picture style windows; the others have the older-style windows. Beyond that, I know of no other reliable method than to go by numbers. 26: 7750-7859. 28: 7860-7959. 29: 8570-8805. 33: 8806-9305. 36: 9524-9557. 33WF: 9306-9345. 36WF: 9346-9523, 9558-9769.
B division:
Current Stock: 60ft - R-32, R-38, R-40/slant, R-40M, R-42, R-143. 75 ft - R-44, R-46, R-68, R-68A.
The three prime distinguishing characteristics are (1) length/end shape, (2) corrugated metal on the sides, and (3) raised stripes along the sides.
The R-32 has corrugated metal on the outside from floor to ceiling. The R-38 has it up to a little above where the windows begin. The R-40 (both types) and R-42 have corrugated metal about 1/3 of the way up. The rest have smooth sides.
The R-40 slants have slanted ends, while the R-40M does not. The rest have normal ends.
The 32 and 38 have a small LED flipdot sign indicating route (trailblazer) at top center on the front, the R143 has a red LED traiplblazer top center, while the rest of the B-division fleet has the usual large button rollsign at upper right.
The R-32 through R-42 have half-width cabs ==> RAILFAN WINDOWS! They also have only bench seating along either side.
The R-44 and R-46 have two sets of three raised stripes along their length. Most R-44's have between these two sets of stripes a painted metal band (though some, including the SIRT R-44's, have a stainless steel band). The R-46's have a stainless waist band between the two sets of stripes.
The R-68 and R-68A have the two sets of 3 stripes plus a seventh stripe between them (where the band would be on the R-44's and R-46's). To tell the 68 and 68A apart, look at the storm (end) doors - the R-68 has a small sticker right below the window; the 68A does not.
The R-44, R-46, R-68, and R-68A have full-width cabs (no railfan windows in general). The 4x's have wood panel and yellowish interior with the LED rollsign, while the 6x series have a metallic interrior and mechanical rollsigns. The also have bucket seating both longitudinal and transverse (i.e. seats facing sideways and forwards/back).
The R-143 are the newest cars in the B-division fleet - they're similar in appearance to the R-142's, and run on the L (and sometimes M). They have a black front.
The R-27/R-30 (used until 1993) are painted red, distinguishing them from anything that's run recently.
The R-110B have a black front (like the R-143), and are 67' long.
As far as car numbers (and usual routes to find them):
R-32: 3350-3949 (Found on the C/E, sometimes the F)
R-38: 3950-4149 (Found on the A/C/E mostly)
R-40/slant/: 4150-4449 (Found on the B, W mostly)
R-40M: 4450-4549 (Mostly on the B)
R-42: 4550-4949 (J/M/Z)
R-44: 5202-5479 (and 388-435 & 436-466 even on SIRT) (these run only on the A and on the SIRT)
R-46: 5482-6207, 6208-6258 even (found on a bunch of lines)
R-68: 2500-2924 (found on a bunch of lines)
R-68A: 5001-5200 (found on a bunch of lines)
(Anything that "looks like a 68") is a 68 if numbered in the 2000's, and a 68A if numbered in the 5000's.)
R-110B: 3001-3009 (experimental only, not used in revenue service)
R-143: 8101-8312 (L, M weekend shuttle)
So those are my guidelines for distinguishing trains.
IRT:
R-62 5-car sets (1301-1625)
R-62A: 5-car sets, some singles on the 7 (1651-2475)
Both model classes have different rollsigns
R-142, 1xxx and 6301-6981
R-142A 7201-up
Redbirds-simple. Small square window=ML. Large picture window=WF.
IND/BMT:
R-32 (3350-3949): stainless corrugations all the way to the roofline. 10 cars rebuilt by GE found on the C are different from rest of R-32 fleet. One oddball car (3348)
R-38: (3950-4149) similar to R-32, corrugations only up to the window line
R-40: (4150-4549) Slanted end except 4450-4549 which are R40M's.
R-42: (4550-4949) similar to R40M, without the thin corrugations and the "bend"
R-44 (5202-5479): 75'. Has painted belly band, 4-car sets.
R-46 (5482-6258): 75' All stainless body, 4-car sets.
R-68 (2500-2924): 75' 4-car sets, some singles. Stainless interior
R-68A (5001-5200): 75' 4-car sets. Simliar to R-68, different rollsigns
R-143 (8101-8312): 4-car sets, with ATO/CTBC. 8205-12 is Siemens equipped.
Sounds like a train that's been visited by Pee Wee Herman and George Michael...
Atlantic (L line) to Eastern Pkwy (J/Z)
Beach 90th Street to Beach 67th Street (Hammels Wye)
Essex Street to Broadway-Lafayette (old 'K' line)
57th Street (7th Ave) to Lexington Ave (63rd Street)
Anything I've forgotten...
Thanks!
Anything at all like that today?
Gerry
There is a whole thread going on about this actually. Low ridership was the case, but that is because of the way the TA ran the KK line. They purposely made it incovenient to use, and used mostly the crappiest trains on the route. In addition, not only was the entire subway system falling apart at the time, the neighborhoods along the Broadway El were also crumbling, at a faster rate than the rest of the city was. That also meant that the stations along the Broadway el were being used less and less.
So in summary, it wasn't that people didn't want to use the route, it's just that at the time it was a bad time to run it, as well as the way they ran it which made it's ridership so low. The TA needed money, and when it came time for budget cuts, the KK was one of the first things to go.
Now that is in the past. The area along the Broadway el is now much improved, and the ridership on the Broadway el continues to rise each year. In fact the Broadway El stations are even more used now that the M line stations and the
There is a whole thread going on about this actually. Low ridership was the case, but that is because of the way the TA ran the KK line. They purposely made it incovenient to use, and used mostly the crappiest trains on the route. In addition, not only was the entire subway system falling apart at the time, the neighborhoods along the Broadway El were also crumbling, at a faster rate than the rest of the city was. That also meant that the stations along the Broadway el were being used less and less.
So in summary, it wasn't that people didn't want to use the route, it's just that at the time it was a bad time to run it, as well as the way they ran it which made it's ridership so low. The TA needed money, and when it came time for budget cuts, the KK was one of the first things to go.
Now that is in the past. The area along the Broadway el is now much improved, and the ridership on the Broadway el continues to rise each year. In fact the Broadway El stations are even more used now that the M line stations and the Jamaica EL stations for the most part.
I thought that capacity is measured in TPH, not the number of lines.
Gerry
1. Extending the V to Canarsie using the center track
2. Operating the M as a local along Broadway,
3. Scrapping the J/Z skip stop and operating the Z only between Broadway Junction and Jamaica since a good portion of Jamaica line riders disembark anyway at Broadway Juntion for the A.
4. Terminating the L at Broadway Junction
I think that way you could provide relatively high service levels, operate speedy service, and relieve overcrowding on the L.
The situation at Bway Jct. is more interesting. The Carnasie line could host another service outward of that point so why deprive the riders of a one seat ride to 14th St. Running the Z as a shuttle, while freeing up some track space on Broadway, would likewise deprive some riders of a one-seat trip to the financial district and force more traffic onto a less frequent J. Rider counts usually track boardings, so even if there are fewer boardings along Broadway, the capacity might still be needed for through riders. Any time you mess with the service, you usually lose riders, based on perceived wrongs. The best way to improve service might be to rebuild the Myrtle El to downtown Brooklyn and connect it into another existing route leading uptown. New, better service!
BTW the MBTA in Boston has a service cap. For every increase there must be an equal and opposite decrease. (Off Topic: And much of the MBTA bus service is inadaquate already!)
Either way you look at it, the M will have to cross in front of something. You mention the outbound crossing, but don't forget that in the morning, if the M is express, it would have to cross the inbound local track. So it doesn't matter if the M is local or express logistically, one verision the M would need to cross in the morning, and the other version, it would have to cross in the evening, so it doesn't really matter.
The situation at Bway Jct. is more interesting. The Carnasie line could host another service outward of that point so why deprive the riders of a one seat ride to 14th St.
The reason is because the eastern end of the L line does not need two services. Atlantic to New Lots are among the lowest used stations in the system, some even less than the Rockaway stations, they are hardly deserving of two services. The L is a very busy line, but most of that traffic is west of Myrtle Ave. Terminating the L at Broadway Junction would allow them to increase service on the L where is is needed the most, withyout overserving the eastern low use end of the line.
Rider counts usually track boardings, so even if there are fewer boardings along Broadway, the capacity might still be needed for through riders.
Just to add though, in general, aside from the J's two terminal stations in Jamaica, the Broadway El's stations are the busiest stations on the J (with a few exceptions of course). Marcy, Myrtle, Flushing, Gates, Halsey and Crescent are the busiest stations on the line,all of which are Broadway El stations, except for Crescent. See here for how all the J's stations rank**
**By the way, I think I like this new "google" thing Selkirk brought up. It took me exactly 2 seconds to find the post I just linked to, as I forgot what thread it was under. I just put "GP38 Chris" and "Halsey" (a word I knew I only used once in a while in a post, so figured it had to find it), and BINGO, I found my post!! Before, we could only search by thread title, and most of the time, who knows what the title of the thread is.
As for between Myrtle and Essex, and it's not the amount of routes that serve a line, but instead the amount of trains that use the line. At one time there were trains that ran to Metro Ave, Canarsie, Jamaica, and from 6th Ave mixed in all at the same time. The line can handle it. The Z is basically just a J with a different name, so that's really in essence just one line anyway.
I simply can't see this ever working. Your own numbers show that the stations on Jamaica Ave (outside 1 or 2) are less well used than Fulton Sts. Detouring service around these stations makes no sense. Secondly, why would those residents already on the el-less portion of Jamaica Ave agree to having trains which will be of no use to them rattling past their buildings?
I suggest a total re-location of the el off of Fulton St, despite the fact that the new el would run right up against the cemetary for half of it's length. A straight run for both local and express trains between ENY and Jamaica would save a ton of time.
Local service would not change on Fulton St. The riders on Fulton would not have any worse service than now. The express is a "bonus" for Sutphin and Jamaica Center riders, finally making more people abandon the E for the J. Jamaica Center and Sutphin are the busiest stations on the line, irrelevant to the Fulton St segment.
Secondly, why would those residents already on the el-less portion of Jamaica Ave agree to having trains which will be of no use to them rattling past their buildings?...I suggest a total re-location of the el off of Fulton St, despite the fact that the new el would run right up against the cemetary for half of it's length. A straight run for both local and express trains between ENY and Jamaica would save a ton of time.
The J line would loose many riders if they abandoned the Fulton St section for a new el on Jamaica Ave. Now the line runs through a dense neighborhood, on Jamaica Ave west of Cypress Hills, most of your residents are literally "dead".
The J & Z run at a combined 12 TPH.You can't add much more from Jamaica due to the configuration of the terminal at Parsons Blvd. Crescent St would lose 50% of it's service if you divert the Z down the new route.
The J line would loose many riders if they abandoned the Fulton St section for a new el on Jamaica Ave. Now the line runs through a dense neighborhood, on Jamaica Ave west of Cypress Hills, most of your residents are literally "dead".
You wouldn't lose any, because there's nothing to compete with. The only people inconvenienced are those who live on or below Fulton St. They'll have a further walk to the subway, but they'll use it. Besides, a reconfigured el with a straight run down Jamaica will almost guarantee more ridership from Queens.
This hasn't been used in revenue service for several decades, but it is well-maintained. It is occasionally used for service diversions and construction work trains.
Beach 90th Street to Beach 67th Street (Hammels Wye)
This also hasn't been used in some time. The other two "legs" of the wye are used daily by the A and Rock Park shuttle trains but the third leg is not used.
Essex Street to Broadway-Lafayette (old 'K' line)
I think you are referring to the connection between the BMT Nassau line and the IND 6th Avenue line. It hasn't been used since the end of K service because ridership was not high enough to warrant it.
57th Street (7th Ave) to Lexington Ave (63rd Street)
There was shuttle service on this line for awhile when repairs were being made to the tracks and roadbed on the 6th Avenue side of the connection. Once the repairs were done, the shuttle was discontinued and there is no current service from the 63rd Street line to the BMT Broadway line, although I believe there should be.
It is definitly usable and was used a few months ago on one of the R's G.O.s
They plan to use it for regular service to 145 St on the Q line after the completion of the first half of Second Ave Subway.
-Broadway Buffer
I thought that the SAS is only running up to 125th Street.
-Broadway Buffer
Sue's cute but I prefer Denise.
:0)
-James
This is the only connection from the L to ENY Yard, as well as the only way to get trains from the L to the rest of the system under their own power.
Correction. It's ridership was low because it was so poorly run at the time that it wasn't made convenient to use.
DID the MTA say how the took trains from the KK/K to make up service for the B or F?
Did they tell you how they ran the service,using the absolute worst of subway cars[my personal favorites=R1/9'S]in terms of condition...while the other lines had better cars and A/C?
Did they tell you how the TA didn't want this line,nor the QJ because "Operations Planning" didn't want it? That the service was ran substandard to make the riders not want to use it,and to give them a reason to cancell it?
Did you know the KK line was originaly suppose to run to 168th street Washington heights,where the BB/B ran for years? the RPA OPJECTED TO the route change,sending the B to upper Manhattan and the KK to the new 57th st station...
Those are a few things...Iknow a few more ..but why go there..I gather you got the point...
Feel free to tell us more. We love to learn new things. Thanks.
Jimmy
Wow, that's trippy. The logistics are mind-boggling.
From DeKalb Avenue, it used the Montague St. and Nassau St. Tunnels to Essex.
Motorman went to other end of train, took train to Bway-Lafayette.
It made no stops (except, obviously, to turn around at Essex St.) during that operation.
Clearly, it was not efficient, so they did not do that once Manhattan Bridge reconstruction became more than a sometime thing.
Then there are all the old QB etc. routings using Stillwell to go around in a loop.
It's possible to switch from the F to the A/C between York and Borough Hall - giving access from 6th Ave and the Rutgers Tunnel to the Rockaways or 8th Ave and Cranberry to the Culver line. I'm not sure if that's been mentioned yet.
5 to South Ferry (outer loop), or the SF/Bowling Green shuttle.
Beach 90th Street to Beach 67th Street (Hammels Wye)
Used when S and A service cannot go to/from Broad Channel.
Essex Street to Broadway-Lafayette (old 'K' line)
Used mostly for work trains switching to/from BMT/IND
57th Street (7th Ave) to Lexington Ave (63rd Street)
Used for G/O's or when the 60 Street is out for whatever reason.
This Post reminds me of the London practice of Timetabling certain trains over particular lines and connctions not frequently used by Electric Trains in order to' Keep the rails clean '
Actually, one of these connections has been used when construction forced a partial shutdown of service. It's the one downtown that permits trains from 30th Ave. to loop back via 14th Street. I rode on one such train in October of 2001.
And the the Northbound Yellow after Eisenhower Avenue into the Blue line to Van Dorn (really, into the yards).
And the middle track on the Red Line south of Ft. Totten to the Green Line north of Ft. Totten. Everybody's been on that, because of the old "Green Line Shortcut"
When was the last time a passenger was killed ON (not BY) a
city bus as a result of a collision or other accident?
Last used in the 1960's
Beach 90th Street to Beach 67th Street (Hammels Wye)
Last used in 1992 with the H
Essex Street to Broadway-Lafayette (old 'K' line)
Last used in 1976
57th Street (7th Ave) to Lexington Ave (63rd Street)
Last used in 1995 when Q trains went to 21 St/QB via Broadway
Also the connection at South Ferry between 1/9 and 4/5 trains.
In New York City Subway Cars, James (Greller) gives two different opinions about the white paint scheme used on carbon steel NYCSS cars in the 1980s. First, on page 59, in the lower left side, there is a photo of R14 #5917 on the (3) at Utica Avenue in 1983. James says, Some R14s were painted white to show the TA was taking steps to stop graffiti.
However, on page 88, he contradicts himself. In the lower left side, there is a photo of R29 #8777 on the (2) in 1982. He says, What a target a white set of R29s (8777-6) would present to the graffiti-minded in 1982.
Then, going to another resource, this time the NY Times article I have saved about the retirement of the redbirds (Hey lookie, Christopher Rivera's in there and so is Koi Morris' name!), paragraph 16, lines 11-12, a line reads, ...then all white in the early 1980's, when they became a preferred target for graffiti.
So, what the heck is the verdict with the white paint in the 1980s, graffiti repellent or graffiti attracting?
Sorry for the LONG post, but thank y'all for the verdict.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
IIRC, the paint was grafitti resistant. However, the choice of the color white was not wise, as it provided a perfect blank canvas for our grafitti vandal friends. I'm sure any car painted white didn't remain grafitti free for more than 48 hours.
Thanks Chris.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
In 1982, the first “graffiti control train” of ghostly white IRT cars debuted on the IRT Flushing Line. The original intent of the white train was to send it out on different routes during the day and determine on which of those routes the subway train was most likely to be “tagged”. Checks would also be done to see how much damage was done to the train while being stored in a transit yard at night. The train didn’t succeed in its original mission. The train was very lightly tagged by vandals, if it was at all. The extensive security system implemented at Corona Yard (dual fences about 10 feet apart topped with razor wire and dogs patrolling this 10-foot space) appeared to keep graffiti “artists” at bay. The white paint scheme was expanded on the Flushing Line to become known as “graffiti resistant white” and the security system implemented at Corona Yard was applied to the other transit storage facilities as well. By January of 1983, the entire Flushing Line fleet was painted white, with black anti-climbers, pantograph gates and body sills. While the car sides remained graffiti free, the car ends usually got tagged. Nevertheless encouraged by the results, the fleet that made up the Lexington Avenue local was also painted with this same paint scheme. Some R-17s, R-26s, R-28s, R-29s and R-33s were painted, but didn’t fare as well, because Westchester Yard could not store all these trains when they weren’t needed for service; taggers had a field day when these car were stored on the middle track of the Pelham Line. The next set of cars to be painted in the white scheme were those that served the #4 Lexington Avenue Express. By April of 1984, the TA decided it had enough of the white paint scheme and decided to repaint them red with silver roofs, and the body sills, anti-climbers, safety gates and marker light areas were painted black. The dawn of the Redbird era was established, and the first train to run in this scheme debuted on May 7th, 1984. By August of 1985, the entire Flushing Line fleet was painted in the Redbird paint scheme. By the end of 1985, the first R-29s were being painted as Redbirds.
--Mark
til next time
I just remembered something else. The white paint used Teflon. Graffiti would paint, but then was quickly washed (washable) off. The red was also Teflon, but the white was asking for it.
R-32.
W Broadway Local
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
til next time
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
For Redbirds, I liked the R29s. They had a novel interior paint scheme that made good use of the beige and white.
wayne
-Chris
-Chris
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Then obviously they wouldn't have been called Redbirds and we wouldn't be having this thread...
Why is this so? Technical incompetence or an undue fear of lawsuits? I don't think the rest of the world runs too fast, I think our escalators are standing still!
David
My mother visited France earlier this year. While there she could always pick out the Americans - the giant slobs with sweatpants, shorts, stained shirts, farting, burping, not flushing the toilet, throwing garbage all over the place and lumbering around cursing like sailors. So one of these pigs comes up to her, crowding her with his bad breath and 5 o'clock shadow, and screams in a loud voice, deliberating each syllable as if speaking to the mentally challenged - "DO YOU SPEAK ENGLISH?" So she turns her head downward and says in a French accent (she speaks French fluently), "Non." So these guys probably went home griping about that nasty French lady who wouldn't talk to them... :)
Nor have I once seen them come up to a foreigner and SCREAM IN A LOUD VOICE. This sounds sounds like a Michael Moore anti-American fantasy, about as accurate as one of his hate films.
Besides, many Americans have been informally boycotting France for some years. now. This is a very real, excellent, and widespread phenomenon. If these wild Americans exist as you say they do, Chirac should greet them with a red carpet, as the French tourist economy could surely use the Euros.
And if we are speaking of " ugly " tourists, have you seen Germans in Italy, the English in Spain, Russians in other places? Have you seen the behavior of French and German spectators in the Tour de France last week?
Criticize the US where criticism is due, but your message sounds like a pastiche of wild, foolish, inaccurate cliches.
Before I would take seriously a lecture from the French, I might want to discuss the rise in anti-semetic attacks in that country or the behavior of the rabble last week at the Tour de France ( not just against Armstrong and US cyclists ).
There are a certain amount of " ugly " tourists from any country. If you think its a US-only phenomenenon, then go see a Michael Moore movie with your close-minded little friends.
This is off-topic anyway, so the matter is closed.
Nearly all of which were perpetrated by Muslim immigrants, who in most cases are on the fringes of French society and highly unwelcome in the country.
avid
You got that right. You get one drink into a frenchman or woman and " the real problem " comes out.
French anti-semitism is far from being only an immigrant phenomenon. That toxic strain is joined by garden-variety anti-semitism, which has been around forever, joined by leftwing (socialist/communist/" revolutionary" anti-semitism. It is an ugly, and real, phenomenon.
What was Jean LePen's percentage of the vote for president during the last election? He came in second.
But I bet they thought your escalators went very fast!
We are. I mean, where else can an old woman spill McDonald's coffee on her poon tang and collect millions?*
* = yes, I know the amount was significantly reduced on appeal, but she shouldn't have gotten such a preposterous jury award in the first place.
The thought of that shyster being one bullet away from the Presidency makes Dubya look better and better ...
Didn't the T/A also cripple emergency braking on subway cars for the same reason?
What really blows my mind is the kid who climbed on the roof on an NJT train, got juiced, sued, and won. Something's really wrong with this country when shit like this happens.
Totally mucking fental. The song may say God Bless America, but I actually think God has been using America as His private donicker.
New York State law makes property owners liable for injuries suffered by others, due to the property owner's negligence, even if the injured party were trespassing. The law dates to the 19th century. I assume that New Jersey has a similar statute of a similar age.
It does not take much imagination to see that if trespassing were a legitimate defense, then no property owner would be any obligation to maintain his property to prevent injuries to others.
A clear hazard to farm animals and humans was recognized, when railroads were electrified during the late 19th and early 20th centuries. New York State enaced laws detailing what steps railroads had to take along their right of way to prevent accidents resulting from such hazards. Failure to adhere to such laws would be a clear case of negligence on the railroad's part, in case any injuries should occur. I assume that New Jersey has a similar case law history.
Some railroad companies felt that compliance might be more expensive than paying off litigants. They rationalized such disregard of safety as being good business practice. My sympathy is rarely with such companies, when they are forced to compensate an injured party. Unfortunately, on balance their strategy is still probably less expensive.
Still, remember that rail and politics are often closely intertwined, and so politics often is on-topic, though I will admit we do sometimes stray way off into left field (or right field, depending on your political leanings).
Ben F. Schumin :-)
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/wfbuckley/wfb20021021.shtml William F Buckley discusses Pataki's sweet little deal with Alstom and Kawasaki. Alstom is building the R-160's (they're a FRENCH company, supposedly an anathema to the GOP. Whoops)
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/208968p-180120c.html And who made the Alstom deal? Why Alphonse D'Amato ...
And I thought France was our "enemy" ... R-160's ... the FrenchFREEDOM train. :)
And on the whole it works, in London. But then the tube is far more dependent on escalators than the NYC subway is, because a much higher proportion of the stations (in the central area, at any rate) are very deep - so regular travellers are far more used to them than in NYC.
Maybe Anton can tell us whether on Russian metro escalators there is a rule for standing at one side and walking at the other. I can't now remember, from my visit to St Petersburg last year - though the metro there is very deep and very heavily used, and the escalators are pretty much full of people all the time.
Yes, Fytton, there is a rule and it works on all long escalators. Left side is for the walking and right one is for the standing. I remember, my teacher was explaining it in the 1st grade of the elementary school. When we were in the metro during class tours she always was calling the kids who stood at wrong side "country bumpkins" :)
"and the escalators are pretty much full of people all the time."
You are talking about central city stations. Yes, they are crowded all the time. Outlying stations are looking uninhabited sometimes. On the line 1 which is leading to my home district they are Viborgskaya, Polytech during university vacations (this station is made for students only I think) and of course my native Devyatkino looks like the best place for roller skating when there are no arrived surface trains on the nearest railway station.
the picture found in the R27/R30 page.
picture edited and given to me by Joe Testagrose
He gave me a ton of his pictures and their edited too.i'll post more soon.
til next time
til next time
The Z train on the Franklin Av shuttle.
That creation was done by Steve Zabel , famous railfan photographer/motorman. He took an N sign and turned it sideways and added Zabel to the bottom. Unoffically, it's the very first Z train.
I was there with ERA members back in 1981 when the Franklin Shuttle was being threatened with permanent closure. That day, the ERA had a Farewell to the Franklin Shuttle tour along with Steve Zabel's Z sign.
Bill "Newkirk"
til next time
i have a whole lot of more pictures to upload(which i can hopfully do
before the year is out).
til next time
til next time
So what other stations could we have? A few come readily to mind.
How about Edy's Grand Central? Imagine the directions--
Take the 4 at Edy's Grand Central. Get off at Virgin Atlantic Avenue and change for the Q to Burger Kings Highway.
Now how many others can you think of? There must be more. We could have a lot of fun with this.
Mike's Bowl-A-Rama Bowling Green
Spin City Hall
New York Knickerbockers Av.
Bill Clinton - Washington Avs.
Big Lots Ave.
El Presidente St.
Medieval Times Sq.
York Peppermint Patty St.
High Times St.
Carroll O'Connor St.
Smith, 9th and Wesson St.
66th St. - Lincoln Logs Center
I won't even try Dyckman...
Parsons School of Design Boulevard
Morgan Stanley Avenue
Sutter Home Wine Avenue
Bill Gates Street
Whitehall Jewelers Street
Ralph's Italian Ices Avenue (a Suffolk County inside joke)
Its hard thinking up names. :/
Cooper Union Turnpike
Continental Insurance Avenue
Grand Union Supermarkets Avenue
Elmhurst Dairy Avenue
Roosevelt Savings Bank Avenue
Steinway Pianos Street
On the 6th Avenue IND:
"42nd Street" - a Dance Extravaganza!
America West 4th Street
On the Brooklyn IND:
Ditmas Realty Avenue (Five Towns in-joke)
Which would of course be renaming the station, after the company, that gave the street the station was named for, it's name to begin with!
Huh?
Steinway did more than make pianos. He was one of the pioneers of the subway.
The tunnels on today's 7 line that connects Grand Central to Vernon-Jackson Avenue station was originally known as the "Steinway" tunnels because Steinway financed the building of the tunnels for service between Grand Central and Long Island City. Streetcars were eventually run through there in 1907 but financing for a full transit plan failed. The tunnels remained unused until August Belmont came along and snapped them up, making them part of the IRT extension to Corona and Astoria as part of the Dual Contracts. The tunnels were modified to accept third-rail power and extended to Hunters Point Avenue, where a portal station was built. The tunnels entered IRT revenue service in 1917.
But Steinway was the one who got it started.
If you want to reopen a station, make it 18th Street on the east side IRT. Its virtually untouched physically in 100 years.
Or City Hall for that matter.
Whatever happened to that idea? You would think the MTA could use the rent money.
irradescent lighting
Nah, rather have iridescent lights . . . the other kind sounds like they'd irradiate you, and we get too much of that from CD player lenses :)
Now would the FTA require all sorts of three-foot thick glass before they'd let 18th Street station be used as a bar?
I think it would be really expensive to rehab 18th Street. I would like to see it cleaned up and restored just so people could see the magnificence and ingenuity of the original subway. Because of its size and closeness to 14th Street, its revenue days are long over, but I still think it could be used for occasional tours given by the Transit Museum.
I think 18th Street used to be a feature on the old "Day One on the IRT" tours that the Transit Museum used to give. Oh, well.
It was, that's when I took the photos. The tour also included Brooklyn Bridge local platforms, 14th St local platforms, 91st St, Grand Central tower, and City Hall (what a tour!)
As for the tiles, they do appear in good shape, much better than 91st St for some reason. Of course missing tiles would have to be replaced here and there, but anybody opening any bar even in a normal building would have to cover the cost of renovation to convert the space for their use. In a commercial lease, many times a few months free rent are given by the owner for such renovations. That probably wouldn't cover the cost of renovations, however it doesn't usually cover it in a normal building either - it's part of the cost of opening up a new business. In a case like this though, the TA probably would cover the cost of clean-up, graffiti removal and structural problems, but the bulk of the renovation for use of a commercial property are usually covered by the tenant.
Here's some photos of 91st St, the station is in much worse shape than 18th. However, the tiles are also pretty solid there too, not really falling off the walls, just covered in graffiti. 91st St would not be that great a place for a bar though, it fits much better into the 18th St neighborhood.
aren't they closing tracks at another station on the irt (bowery maybe)?
Ah yes, nothing quite like accessing the Internet with dumpster fodder. I have done it. More then half the computers I own were rescued before making the trip to the landfill.
John
Your pal,
Fred
How so?
You should have seen the station pre-1990!! Thats haen the last renovation was done, when they put that cement block wall up. It was a total wreck before then. There was NO wall on the "wall platform" side. Just a "jail-like" bar the whole length of the station between the fare control area towards the bridge. Behind that they stored all sorts of crap. The station signage included totally non-descript stand metal black "Essex St" signs hanging on the bars. I wish I had a photo of THAT to post here. What a mess.
The north mezzanine used to have old HEETs and it felt dingy. I have a lot of old memories from before they started renovation the F platform in 2002.
I agree with you on that but just remove the fish and the orchard artwork because it makes it look like a bootleg Times Square. Also the newly added stairway looks ugly.
I could go on and on how this rehab job is worst in the system. At least Grand Central on the 7 line looks good.
And as for Grand Central on the Flushing Line, I think it looks awful -- beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
David
David
A typical Jamaica El station (Forest Parkway)
A typical Broadway El station (Hewes St)
Yes, and compare your station on 33rd St to the station at 28th St and 23rd St. And yes, both 28th St and 23rd St HAVE been renovated. They were just done BEFORE that law was in effect. 33rd St was done after.
I don't have to compare. Artwork makes the station look ugly and it has no place in a station such as Delancey Street/Essex Street. I'll be happy if they can restore the station the way it was before renovation.
At Roosevelt, they knocked down a lot of the old 'ROOSEVELT' tiles and are covering up the old mezzanine mosiacs (like telling us where to go if you want to head to Jamaica or something). Not to mention they are permanently reducing the size of those mezzanines with useless crew quarters.
Da Hui
Da Hui
Da Hui
You mispelled "you're."
No respect.
BTW, another is scheduled in their current brochure.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
--Mark
http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/abandoned/willb.html
There is a great photo of the terminal in use there.
Great history, but I still feel it's time to put a trackwall up there to improve the look of the station. The whole renovation looks great, but looks like crap on the Queens bound side because of this.
Acela Pix.
transitpics.com Metro North
transitpics.com Amtrak
-Chris
-Chris
What camera do you use?
-RJM
-Chris
Both are 2MP, but the A60 performs much better than the DSC-P31.
-RJM
Upon your calling that TransitGallery.com is very horrible, what you mean by that? You can just upload the orgional photos, not need to compress them, it will do the dirty work for you after you upload them. Why bother compressing them?
Thanks for your time!
Regards,
Joseph
TransitGallery.com
-Chris
That ad is driving me crazy, I am going to remove that one, it fucked up pretty bad, so I am going to keep the Google ones, it is very fast and simple.
You dont need to compress them, all free accounts now have 800MB storage space up from 500MB so you have plenty room!
Thanks :)
-Chris
I'll get back to you about .png thing
Once again, enjoy TG!
-Chris
Thanks!
Your pal,
Fred
North Station(Mainly of Shuttle station thats on the outta end)
NYCTA:
3rd Ave El's Grand Central Station Spur
2nd and 3rd Ave El's 34 St Ferry Station spur
129th St terminal for the 2nd? 3rd? ave els.
South Ferry Terminal for the 2nd, 3rd, 6th and 9th Ave El's
And if possible, City Hall Spur(IRT).
Please help as much as you can. Thanks.
Now I'll stop being the reporter and start being the affected human being. This is my first observed 12-9, and I was aboard that train and didn't perceive it happen. At first all we could tell was that the station had stopped at the platform and doors were not opening. I'll sumise that one or two cars still had not entered the platform. We were told we were delayed because of a train ahead of us, but that was clearly not the case. I was two cars behind the incident, and you could hear passengers becoming bolsterous (likely over the inability to exit to their transfer).
Oh the humanity.
- KarmaKonditionedCar
(Especially on the platform)
Please Watch What You Do!
Stations can drive?
Robert
Or perhaps the TA didn't want people to know that someone got killed so as not to put another public bad mark on the saftey of the subway.
But enough with the obvious public relations bit.
From a rider's point of view, I would not want to hear something like that coming over the PA of a train or station. I think is probably the main reason why the TA uses other reasons when announcing a delay, although I have heard on occasion a conductor state a "passenger accident" or "paasenger injury" which could be anything.
I don't think a train crew member would want to make an announcement like that either.
Ron, let me tell you, first-hand, that it's not always true. A couple of months ago I was riding the cab of a DE30AC. We were doing 72 MPH between Hicksville & Bethpage when we saw a flock of geese (actually only 3) on the tracks. My engineer friend leaned on the horn and 2 took the hint. The 3rd just stared at us. I guess he was about 20 Lbs. and we felt and heard the impact. I don't mean to compare geese and passengers as Selkirk often does but I've also been on an MU that's hit a person. Heard and felt that too.
What do you know/think?
-Alexander-
David
Roosevelt is in dire need of renovation. It sees a lot of passenger traffic during both the morning and evening rush hours and has become downright dingy.
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Reminds me of a Twilight Zone episode, people are the same all over.
House bill would slash Amtrak funding
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07192004.shtml#House
LaHood dismisses Illinois Amtrak high-speed service
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07192004.shtml#LaHood
Let’s see how long it takes the sausage makers then to restore the subsidy!
Meanwhile the roads get $1 billion more than even the White House wanted. Of course this would have nothing to do with the congresscritters’ pet pork projects, now would it?
Mark
Amtrak get's around a billion. We pay 1/3 of the price of an urban highway project(one city) to fund a NATIONAL train system.
Find me a state that has less than a billion to run on itself let along using a NATIONAL system, with rapidly INCREASING ridership per year!!!
I can't wait for my first amtrak trip coming up before they cut the budget. I'm not too happy about the duration though.
“People in rural Illinois are not for high-speed rail...They do not want a train traveling 120, 125, 150 miles per hour through the rural areas, and I support them on that.”
So high speed is fine for dense urban areas with lots of crossing streets and roads to contend with, but not for cornfields where there's nothing to hit? Rural areas are logistically the easiest places to build HSR because there are fewer obstacles.
I'm also skeptical when he claims the people aren't for HSR. Rural people often have to travel relatively long distances for all kinds of reasons. I know, as I've spent most of my life in semi-rural aress. Anything that will shave times off necessary trips will be welcome, no doubt.
Mark
Your pal,
Fred
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I hope the new bridge looks as nice as the old bridge. It would also be nice if the CT DEP lifted the bridge opening limits.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07192004.shtml#Nan
Your pal,
Fred
That is TRULY a wonderous machine based on the picture. I can see all the complexities AND the rust. Sad, but I *understand* why it's gotta go. Bechtel would NEVER be able to bring it in for a lower price than Halliburton. I suppose if "Congrefs" gets its way, the Acela will be running over a pontoon bridge. :-\
Your pal,
Fred
I like the bridge's design. Is its replacement funded in Amtrak $1.8 billion budget request?
If and when they do replace the bridge, I'd like to see a section of the chain put into a museum.
Your pal,
Fred
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Probably due to the cost of getting that fresh tabacco smell out of the carpet and seats. They should start selling Tomacco in the Cafe Car as a substitute.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07192004.shtml#Three
It does. But it's smooth and mild. And refreshingly addictive.
Addictive, eh?
----
Go ahead, Ralphie. The stranger is offering you a treat.
Oh, Daddy, this tastes like grandma.
Holy Moses, it *does* taste like grandma!
I want more.
Yeah, me too.
The article states that three of the four Amtrak trains that now allow smoking will ban it November 1, leaving only Auto Train for the addicts.
Chewing tobacco time!
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Weren't they also going to upgrade to 79mph during this time period?
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07192004.shtml#Lobster
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Bah, the stenciling on the side of the tank cars should be information enough.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07192004.shtml#Bill
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The line they are talking about is the old A&S between Safe Harbour and Parksburg. This line is a power alley for Amtrak supplying 25Hz power from the Safe Harbour Dam. There was talk about SEPTA rehabilitating the line for NS in return for NS letting them run commuter rail to Reading via the Harrisburg Line.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07192004.shtml#Enola
Matt
In the short term I just hope the extension to Wawa gets done. And if they want a rail-to-trail conversion, fine. There's more than one route to Reading anyway.
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This is about the 8th time this corridor has gotten a "plan". heh, what's next, new "Capitol Liners"?
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07262004.shtml#Keystone
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I remember stopping there on my way to Topeaka. Good for them for speaking up.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07262004.shtml#Lawrence
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Again more highway loving jerks trying to squeeze blood from a rock. The roads get hundreds of millions yet Amtrak has to fight for 6?
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07262004.shtml#Missouri
You oughta know by now to look out for internet cafés while on the road . . . ;->
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Just when you thought the classic RFP signals were safe VA hits us with this thing. At least the initial construction will be located where the signals have already been ruied.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07262004.shtml#Virginia
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Well duh, you give people a convienent fast ride and they'll chose it over cars. I wonder how the new cars differ internally from the old galleries.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07262004.shtml#Baby
The only expresses I've ridden have been the 4:13 PM out of SF and the 5:45 PM out of San Jose; they didn't seem to be more than 50-60% full at their crowdedest.
I was going to guess the cars are run-of-the-mill Bombardiers, except for the bike space-- but maybe face-to-face seating isn't the norm? Some seat quartets have tables, some don't.
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Woah, this is an about face. I wonder what their motive is. Free upgrades?
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07262004.shtml#NS
An interesting line is in there about getting Amtrak to run commuter rail. That oculd get some cities a great head start i would imagine.
I like the line where the guy is talking about what $120million pays for for highway construction. That's a hugely conservative estimate in my zone, times that by 2 and we're talking.
By the way, the O. Winston Link Museum is great. If you get the chance definately pay it a visit. It's located in the restored N&W station and has wonderful displays of his photos. It's too bad we have to go so far to see the wonderful work of this Brooklyn native.
Mark
I would figure that Atlanta and Charlotte are two huge cities(understatment or bushism?) not far apart, without traveling in the direction between these two cities, I can still picture the motor trips that are probably done per day.
Mark
NS, having done a lot of work to cut costs, probably thinks they can make a tidy sum. Nice to see a *new* interurban line for a change.
Mark
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Any subtalkers ride this new GTT system yet?
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07262004.shtml#Hello
Mark
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What the hell do these people have against commuter rail? Dosen't Boston traffic suck? Isn't Boston transit friendly?
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07262004.shtml#Cohasset
I will concede them this much: it would be nice if construction plans could mitigate or recreate wetlands to a greater degree than they do now. I am actually sympathetic to that part - they have a legitimate beef to some degree.
But the other garbage- "wrecking downtown" and all that other nonsense...barf!
There is a good message here, though: appeals are not forever. Most of the delay in Greenbush was from the Governor's delaying the project, not lawsuits. Lawsuits here have had a relatively minor effect, overall, and if MBTA wins this appeal, opponents can file lots of other lawsuits but the contractors are going to continue working anyway. The effect of those other lawsuits will be for opponents to vent but MBTA will just shrug and open the line to service anywway.
The MBTA is spending nigh $500 million on Greenbush, while claiming it does not have the money to follow through on its legally mandated promises in the urban core. For instance, consider the Green Line extension to Medford -- a capital project that was mandated in the Big Dig's federal funding package. As opposed to Greenbush, this project is quite popular in the communities it would serve. It is supposed to be finished this year.
Yet not a single shovel has hit the ground on the Green Line project. The T is seeking to exploit a legal loophole that would allow them to do a cheaper, alternative service along the same corridor. That corridor, by the way, is an active commuter rail, Amtrak, and freight line. It parallels no wide streets, and does not currently make any stops in the proposed Green Line area of service. So it's easy to imagine what the alternative comprises: One or two new commuter rail stations, served by one or two new trains; or slightly increased bus service on nearby routes. Pretty lame.
So I would ask, what the hell does the MBTA have against commuters?
In other words, this fellow equates trains in his back yard with environmental tragedy. A thousand extra cars on route 3, of course, are just life as usual.
As for those that can't drive, there is already frequent bus service on 3A between Quincy and Hingham, and ferry service from a few points on the shore. However, most MBTA constituents who must rely on transit, and who would actually welcome new service, live in the city. I think the T should spend its construction money there.
And you know it's not HIS car that contributes to air pollution, right? The average cow farts more pollution into the atmosphere than his SUV.
If you don't believe that, just as him. He'll tell you. :0)
Reading your post made me wonder ... What if along with the Silver line, WMATA were to hypothetically construct a spur line from
the Northeast end of Rosslyn on the blue/orange line through a Georgetown station and connecting back with the red line heading
north somewhere between Woodley Park and Cleveland Park. This would lead to all sorts of possibilities once the Silver line opens but
how would you route service most efficiently? I have an idea but I'd be interested to see what people on this message board think if
you agree this is an interesting problem. Never mind that this would never ever happen because Rock Creek is kinda in the way!
Actually Red Line, a variant of your proposal is eminently feasible and recommended by a consortium of Georgetown residents and Metro engineers back in 2001 as part of the M Street Subway proposal, which I'm sure SubTalkers have heard of, since it is at least as justifiable and long deferred as a 2nd Avenue Subway.
For details on the most practical (and highest ridership) alignment that jibes with what the engineers (not to mention John Cambron) proposed back in 2000/2001, go to:
http://earthops.org/purple-line/
Minimize the purple line graphic (unless you're interested in that too!)
and click on the button / link that says "View Crosstown Proposal".
Note, in John's engineering rhetoric for WMATA, the Purple Line would
be classified as Route N, with the zero chaining point at Bethesda in
the Wisconsin Avenue rail tunnel, proceeding in cut-and-cover stacked
tracks under the trailbed as far as West Silver Spring/Lyttonsville Rd.
and the initial segment would be 10 stations with Calverton (I95)=N10
and the all-important spur terminating in Silver Spring via a new pocket track south of the Silver Spring Metro station
(possibly extending as a knockout under the parking lot of the former Silver Spring MARC station parallel to Spring Street to allow for continuation of the line).
The Brown Line would generate possibly the most additional ridership of all three proposals on my website yet nobody is talking about it, even though it was first proposed in the 1950s. The version in my site is a
bit out of date, I've eliminated the Bailey's loop seeing as how we can't even get a Tysons Loop built here in DC.
I await your feedback on these proposals, I spent months putting the
site together tho I haven't worked on it much in the past couple years,
the information is still current (the Bush and Ehrlich administrations
intervened, conveniently enough for me, since (a) the Purple Line route
endoresed by the environmentalists is absolute crap and deserved to be
killed and (b) I've been too busy to work on the site since I help run
a community store near the Takoma Metro.) But the info is still mostly
current, the Crosstown route is more current than anything else in fact.
Though the Brown line proposed on my site is an old map, that route is
pretty well-defined in Virginia and would generate more ridership than
anything anyone in WMATA is talking about doing.
For some reason the southern suburbs of DC have become quite hostile to Metro.
The need for a crosstown route in DC (connecting the three points of Rosslyn, Wisconsin Avenue, and M Street and terminating downtown or at Union Station for the time being) is the same as the need for a SAS:
To allow for continued ridership growth on all existing lines.
I have a site I've been working on called (for a better link go to)
earthops.net/purple-line
containing three proposed routes. Now that the Dullest corridor line
has been funded (underfunded considering a Tysons Loop would have made
more money for Metro than anything else they could have possibly done),
these are the only three things I think Metro should be working on.
When it comes to transit in this day and age, Ya got to prioritize.
Leave it to MTA to build lite rail in Maryland, but NOT inside the DC
Beltway. Let DC build its own lite rail boondoggle in SE DC for mostly
tourists...
As for money-sucking lite rail in Virginia, one of the three routes
I'm proposing would start out as a light rail line, and portions
would upgrade to Metro eventually, allowing the lite rail trains to
be extended elsewhere.
Wondering how that is possible? Check out the site and get back to me
with your thoughts and opinions:
DC Metro--Expansion proposals
Some technical clarifications for all you foamers :-)
Purple Line Route N, chaining point at Silver Spring
and station markers originating at Bethesda = N01 (perpendicular platform, below-grade in existing railroad tunnel) or Montgomery Mall = N01 (alternate Grosvenor alignment).
Grosvenor alignment would include one station to the west of Grosvenor (perpendicular platform, below grade) ending at Montgomery Mall/Rock Spring Business Park; however it would have one fewer station between it and Calverton, so Calverton would still be # N10.
Initial route segment would have 10 stations with Calverton/I95 = N10
and includes a single station spur along the route of the current proposed "Inner Purple Line" with cross-platform transfer at Silver Spring using existing tracks.
Brown Line Route H, chaining point at Rosslyn, would utilize the new Crosstown line in all likelihood by the time it became a Metro Line,
in which case Annandale = H10. Initial segment would include four Metro - compatible elevated rail stations along the I-395 Condo Canyon at:
Baileys South (H5), Seminary Road (H6), Shirley Village (H7), and Landmark (H8). The rest of the Brown Line initial segment would be built as part of the proposed Potomac Yard light rail initial segment
which the State of Virginia has already designated as the next-in-line transit project for Virginia.
Once the line is extended under Columbia Pike into the District, it would utilize the Pentagon knockouts for the first time and the light rail trains would be displaced onto Route 7, where they would cross over the Brown Line at Baileys Crossroads (H4) and presumably continue on to Tysons Corner, VA to provide a circulator (made necessary by the elimination of the Tysons Loop from the Dulles line plans, sadly).
This may seem odd, but The existence of the Pentagon knockouts does
not justify building the line from the inside out. All the ridership
is on the outer end of the never-built lincolnia Brown Line. Whereas
all the tunneling is on the innermost segment, west of the Pentagon.
In fact, that's why the line has never been built. Not only does the man representing South Arlington on the Metro Board a big opponent of heavy rail expansion, but -- ALL the development that went up (in anticipation of a Brown Line to Lincolnia, which has been on the books since the 1960s and narrowly escaped inclusion in the ARS) is on the outer end of the line.
As it happens, that's the part of the line where elevated tracks
(usable initially by the trolley trains Virginia wants to put on
Routes 7 and Route 1) make the most sense.
Let me know what you think.
--Brian R. in Takoma MD (Red Line)
To those who don't know: Yesterday was the 9th day of the Jewish month of Av. This is a day of national mourning for the Jewish people, as it has seen many dark events in Jewish history, including the destruction of both Temples in Jerusalem and the expulsion of the Jews from Spain in 1492. The day is marked by prayers and a complete fast (no food or water) from sundown to sundown on that day.
Subway link: The day is often notated as "9 Av," which is very similar to "9 Ave.", one of the most prominent abandoned stations. The ruins and continuing gloominess and hopeless atmosphere of the station reminds one of the destruction and gloominess that was Jerusalem and its environs after the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE and the exile of the Jews by the Romans.
I have never made the jump to the connection in mood with the Ninth Avenue station. It certainly seems appropriate.
Shalom from Tel Aviv. Andy.
Wow - I thought I was the only Subtalker here in Israel, and then I find another one right here in Tel Aviv. (I don't live in Tel Aviv, but I do work here.)
subfan
At least make the effort. ;)
Do a lot of Jewish folks live near Ninth Avenue?
Can't do that. Some kind of annoying 29 year old GO :)
Free transfer only by MetroCard, and only if you haven't used it (both if you used the SIR) to enter the subway.
Is this a record?
Remarkable that Moses can still engender so much passion nearly a quarter-century after his death.
Subtalk IS what it is, because all of us who hang our trainman's (or women's - after all, no question that there are "Queens of the underground" who EARNED their handles as ANY craftsperson must) hat on the cab coathook (because some IDJIT designed the hook so that it will not REALLY hold a coat) ... each of US who come here LOVE steel wheels (some want to put an icehook in any wheels made of rubber, but rubber break, I won't talk about it said Idi VD Amin) and all of us have our very own (damned near sexual) "fetishes" as far as trains go.
Some collect maps, some collect tokens, some clip newspaper articles, some HORDE pictures of trainwrecks and actual "space cases" and a few that I love dearly assemble an arnine cab in their BEDROOM ... fact is, we're ALL misfits ... (see the film "Stripes" for the "we're all misfits bit) ... we're slackers, we're crazy, we're *ALL* liberals for saluting TRAINS, something that's as dead in this country as "freedom" unless that "freedom" HAPPENS to be "former fried potato sticks with 'catsup' since HEINZ is now the French." :)
REALITY is that us "foamers" (I admit it, since I don't WORK for the Transit Authority anymore, I've come to LIKE trains again, heh) consist of all SORTS of ENTIRELY DIFFERENT interests. If we want to discuss arnines, I'm THERE. If we want to discuss the TA from 1970 to 1971 when I *worked there*, I'm ALSO there. Since I moved out of da chitty in 1975 though, can't help anyone there aside from ONE trip back to play with trains while everyone ELSE was in the bunker after 9/11 ... got a CHEAP deal at the Helmsley Plaza for Crispness weekend, 2001 and TOOK it. Got to tun 8101-8108 at my PLEASURE with Nancy in the cab as well as much as I wanted to with the Kawasaki kids and some friends of mine who finally retired the next day. :)
What I'm TRYING to say is that each and every ONE of us brings unique knowledge to the table. I only did a little less than a year with the TA as the guy in mid-train as well as up front owing to a major reshuffling of employees on their way out, and in when I worked there. I knew the line(s) I rode when I lived in the Bronx, and how thing were shortly after the MTA rode into town on a republican horse and began screwing everything up in earnest. That they never ran OUT of things to screw up never ceases to amaze me ... if I was Machievelli, I coulda NEVER dreamt up WD's! And I've always PRIDED myself on my ability to predict stupidity, it's what I made my LIVING on. Even now. Heh.
But seriously - MY expertise is in computer security now. It's *SO* off topic, that I mention it rarely whenever somebody indicates a computer problem, a problem with subtalk or browsers or such. Be GRATEFUL that I don't talk about it. Heh. My SECOND area of expertise after 30+ years in REPORTING it is POLITICS. I have perhaps the best-calibrated BS detector in media from covering everyone from LBJ to Kerry. SPIN doesn't work with me, because unlike today's "urinalists," I actually SPENT 8 hours a day in the libraries hittin the microfilm. When I asked a politico something, I'd give them a "photostat" of the receipt and THEN ask "what gives here?" I've made SO many enemies over the years, Ziegler, Kleindienst and even NIXON knew the name "Ken Joesphs of WBAI." Do I cower in fear of D'Amato? Hahahaha. FEDS have much more power, and I stood in the gabled ceilings of "FBI West Street" in penance for my "ink." :)
So do I go into politics? YOU BETCHA ... politics *is* relevant to railroads and the New York City subway. MTA would *NOT* be at a deficit, it's the most efficient of all PRICEWISE ... the federal MONEY died ... THAT's why we're scrood. REPUBLICAN congress ... build subway in Council Bluffs. New York? WHAT subway? :(
My comments about Shrub, Silver, D'Amato, Paturkey and Bruno are all ABOUT subways. Did anyone in the city KNOW how much the MTA gave to build Bruno's p*nis? Or to build "hired for three months" plants in Hornell so Al D'Amato could get paid for "Made in New York" for the R-160's when they WON'T be? For ALL of my own "political" experience in reporting, I really DO keep a lid on it for all I *could* say and all I *could* present here. But if one actually *does* the links I provide rather than whining, I'm ALWAYS on topic. Including the "terrorism" bits ... WHAT terrorists?
Hell ... if NEW YORK was going to be attacked, NYPD is the federal army? Where's our NEW YORK NATIONAL GUARD? Oh yeah, they're over in Iraq guarding THEIR SUBWAY ... FAR more likely to be attacked (according to Ridge) than OURS. :-\
Sorry, journalists come equipped with BS meters ... yeah, let's smoke some more shrub, I've had enough. :(
Seriously, you need to lighten up a little bit. This is a legitmate question that I can offer a partial answer.
Suggestion: Go to the display configuration, and revcise your settings to Compressed, and ENTER a date range. Do about two months worth and backtrack, writing down the posts that have the most responses as you go. There was a thread last year that went out of control into "...lighten up" to me and Train Dude and it was funny. But there were other threads that had more responses than that.
Next impulse is to say "Three words—Monkey, typewriter, Shakespeare." (I like that too . . .)
Why is there no current revenue service connecting the QB "R" line to the BMT Broadway line via 63rd Street? The tracks are in and operating, and R service along QB could be increased because there would be a second route to send R trains to the Broadway line, in addition to the 11th Street cut route.
My guess: R ridership along QB is not high enough to warrant such a service?
Occasionally some "R" trains are routed via 63rd St when there are problems in the 60th St section.
If you were to make something like this a regular thing then you would be reducing service at Queen Plaza since the connection to the 63rd St line is just south of 36th St in Queens.
avid
The oldest map I have is from May 2000.
R-32.
From a design standpoint, that's the same map since the redesign in'79 - a major improvement over its predecessor (as shown on Subway.com.ru - a very nice site). 'The Map' is mere words.
R-32.
You can follow the yellow (S) by looking at the map segment that I posted. And since a boxed (S) means that Herald Square was a terminal, and since the 63 St line only went so far in 1999, it really limits the route choices :)
If you look at the black letters at Herald - no "S" only "B D F N Q R"
Times shows the "S" (or should it be two "S"? => second map error)
Weekdays, the 63rd St. shuttle ran to 34th Street. That's absolute fact.
On April 6, 1998, the shuttle was extended to 34/Broadway via express between 6am and 9pm on weekdays to permit easier transfers.
Regular B/Q service resumed on May 23, 1999.
Ditto. The local tracks can't handle terminating 3 routes at Continental, nobody would ride it if it ran all the way to 179th, the express tracks can't handle any more trains and the service would be lost the moment the first leg of the SAS is opened.
As a rider on Queens Blvd - how would the riders know that a particular R train will use 57th Street or 63rd Street. Just wondering.
Your pal,
Fred
--Mark
This picture was taken at about 11:45 PM.
Unless you like blurry shots, or flashing T/O's.
I don't.
-Chris
til next time
I *should* be making this one, as it's going to allow me to get some more sleep on a saturday.
But Brooklyn67 said it was not in Manhattan Beach, Brighton Beach or Coney Island so my rough estimate would be the western leg of the LIRR Rockaway branch.
GP , are you Fulton St over there ?
--Mark
Manhattan Beach Station, Brooklyn, circa 1905. This short spur, known as the Marine Railway, brought visitors to the Manhattan Beach and Oriental Hotels. In the background is Sheepshead Bay with large summer residences that once lined its north shore.
Thanks to GP38 Chris and Mark S. Feinman for the correct answer!
For those of you who have an interest in these "Name That Such-And-Such" threads, please join us over there. Not limited to transit issues, we're also involved in a few "Name That Tune" and other participant-interactive activity. Oh, we occasionally discuss buses and trains, too :-)
Hope to see you there.
For me, it's somewhat akin to taking my work home with me. So in spite of my previous position, since the forums were separated, it affords the opportunity for those who wish to stick to transit related issues, or drift off into meaningless banter. For me personally, the "Mezz" affords the equivalent of an employee 'swingroom', as well as a place to post (IMO) 'cool stuff', learn from one another, exchange ideas and opinions and enjoy such activities as posted above.
Since my hobby isn't transit, but rather nostalgia and music, you'll most-likely find much of that banter from me in the Mezz. However, while participating in the "NYC Buses - Bus Forum", it's strictly business!
Most of the time ;)
Do you know where exactly the station was? Does any evidence remain today?
Also, remains of a low fence still exist at Kings Highway - you'll see them beside the Manhattan-bound local track.
--Mark
Instead of just showing the line color on the LED when the doors are open, why not also the destination?
********************
RED TO GLENMONT
RED TO SHADY GROVE
RED TO SILVER SPRING
RED TO GROSVENOR
GREEN TO GREENBELT
GREEN TO BRANCH AVE
BLUE TO FRANC-SPRING
BLUE TO ADDISON ROAD
ORANGE TO NEW CARLTN
ORANGE TO VIENNA
YELLOW TO MT VERN SQ
YELLOW TO HUNTINGTON
********************
You have to get clever when it comes to squeezing the abbreviations in for Orange and Yellow, since it's hard to fit "New Carrollton" and "Mt. Vernon Square" on there.
And then when we approach the station, augmenting what we already have...
********************
<<< DOORS OPEN LEFT
DOORS OPEN RIGHT >>>
********************
And finally, when the train goes out of service, instead of a blank interior LED, when they switch to "NO PASSENGERS", it should say this:
********************
NO PASSENGERS
********************
What do you think? BTW, as you probably gathered, those stars are there to show the length of the twenty characters that would fit in the interior LEDs.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
********************
RED LINE
********************
TO GLENMONT
********************
NEXT STOP:
********************
SILVER SPRNG
then...
********************
THIS IS SILVER SPRNG
********************
<< DOORS OPEN LEFT
********************
DOORS OPEN RIGHT >>
********************
How about that?
SAS
For when the doors are open and is in motion:
<RED TO GLENMONT
<ROCKVILLE NEXT
When train approaches station:
<ROCKVILLE*
Then, for transfer stations, once the doors close and the train leaves the preceeding station:
RED TO GLENMONT>
METRO CENTER NEXT>
XFER FOR BLUE & ORANGE>
Finally, some P/R messages that could be displayed occasionally:
REMEMBER: EATING, DRINKING AND SMOKING ARE PROHIBITED ON BOARD METRORAIL AND IN METRORAIL STATIONS.
PLEASE MAKE SURE YOU HAVE ALL PERSONAL BELONGINGS WITH YOU WHEN LEAVING THE TRAIN.
WANT TO AVOID THE RUSH? SYSTEM CROWDING IS VERY HEAVY FROM 4:30 PM TO 7 PM WEEKDAYS. TRAVEL OUTSIDE THESE TIMES TO MISS THE EVENING RUSH.
VISIT WWW.METROOPENSDOORS.COM TO ACCESS THE RIDE GUIDE AND OTHER USEFUL INFORMATION, OR CALL METRO AT (202) 637-7000.
PLEASE STAND TO THE RIGHT ON ESCALATORS SO THAT OTHERS MAY PASS ON THE LEFT.
And for the last stop issues:
<RED TO SILVER SPRNG
<SILVER SPRING NEXT
<LAST STOP
Then, when the train arrives, or when the sign changes to NO PASSENGERS, this could be scrolled:
THIS TRAIN IS NOT IN SERVICE. PLEASE LEAVE THE TRAIN AT THE NEXT STATION. CHECK FOR ALL PERSONAL BELONGINGS BEFORE LEAVING THE TRAIN. THANK YOU FOR RIDING METRORAIL.
What do you all think??
*-The arrow would flash at this time, I can't do that in IE but it should work if you are using Netscape.
John
They need the annocements like on NYCTA... "THIS IS THE LAST STOP,,,EVERYBODY PLEASE LEAVE THE TRAIN"
For instance, for Grosvenor, in leaving Medical Center:
"The last station for this train on the Red Line is Grosvenor. If you wish to continue in the direction of Shady Grove, the train following me will go to Shady Grove. Train will be out of service at Grosvenor."
And arriving at Grosvenor:
"This is Grosvenor station. Train will be out of service, doors open on the left side. If you wish to continue in the direction of Shady Grove, the train following me will go to Shady Grove. Train is out of service. Train is out of service."
Then when the train is sitting at Grosvenor:
"Train is out of service, train is out of service, train is out of service."
It's a little less abrupt, but gets the message across. Of course, at the real terminal stations, unless the train is going out of service, there is no need to get all the passengers off, since the train operator will just change ends and the train will head back from whence it came.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Thanks.
Wednesday, July 28, 2004 12:00 Noon
Ronkonkoma and Port Jefferson Branch Customers
Due to a broken rail on the Main Line at Carle Place, we are currently experiencing 20 to 30 minute delays on the Main Line --affecting both Ronkonkoma and Port Jefferson Branch trains.
Shady Grove to Rhode Island Avenue (50%)
Shady Grove to Fort Totten (25%)
Shady Grove to Glenmont (25%)
There are reduced speeds in the area that the affected control room governs.
Supplemental shuttle buses are being operated from Glenmont to Fort Totten.
Customers are being urged to take the Green and Orange (??) lines as alternates, or to not travel at all (my commute this morning was less than 60 seconds so you can figure out what I did). No word on when normal service will resume.
In addition, VRE's Manassas Line was limited to 20 MPH this morning due to a Flood Warning. Service should be normal this afternoon.
-The Fulton Street cat makes it way up here on the unused middle track. Should we rename it the Essex Street cat?
-Two F bullets on the same sign (DUH!)
-A homeless person wanders back and forth across all 3 tracks, on the second trip, he is spotted by a T/O on an incoming J train and forces the train to do a slow crawl. I rushed over the the S/A and she called it in to police but they never showed up, the homeless person boarded an F train downstairs and got away. Some nerve. :-/
Photos at Essex Street
til next time
til next time
You should've told the S/A you were taking pictures of the homeless person... then you'd've gotten the SWAT team, HAZ-MAT, the paddy wagon and about a dozen RMPs in 3 mins... :)
The second picture is most telling, yes I went down to 14th St/Union Square and notified NYPD Transit Bureau #4 afterwards.
-Chris
Chock up another argument against the banning of subway photography!
Where did all that water come from, and how can you stop it from coming in again?
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
It seems to be slowing the whole corridor.......on the way up to NYP, my AMTRAK regional was slow all the way from Philly.
At the very least, add a third track for redundant service - an extra track to allow additional peak-hour service, a third track to maintain normal service if one needs to be taken out of service (which has been very common here on weekends), and a third track to use if two tracks need to be taken out of service.
Better yet, build two more tracks so we have two completely redundant sets of trackage under the river.
In terms of priority I believe that it supersedes the SAS.
I didn't say it was. It's a waste of money to completely rebuild the NEC route (isn't that what the precvious poster meant)?
I agree with your post - except the part about SAS. Two different projects with equal need. SAS is especially important now that ESA is underway.
Though it would be nice to have a NEC that could handle *real* high speed trains (the Acela is a piddly go-kart compared to what could run on modern tracks).
That, though, will have to wait for sometime until the late 27th century, going at today's pace... :(
:0)
NJT cancelled a train to Bay Head, and the next one wasn't for another hour or hour and a half. There was also an Acela that was 15 min late. What else.....oh, there was a NJt to Summit that left I think 15-20 mins late. Those are just a few of the delays. They were sayin signal problems.
We arrived at Newark one minute early, and departed on time. We basically went 60 to the Airport, then 80 until the usual place before MET'PK to switch over to stop there. Arrived on time.
Was there any work equipment AMTRAK used? I didn't see any while coming down the corridor.
I don't recall the W express service being re-introuduced after the 9/11 reroutes were eliminated, which happened at the very end of October 2001. If that's true, the last scheduled W expresses were on 9/11 itself.
The December 2001 map included the Astoria express. The January 2002 map did not.
W Broadway Local
Furthermore, express tracks also work best when the terminal stations fill up the trains (thus are very busy stations), or it can run local a bit before starting to run express (thus running local on White plains before running local, and thus not using the northern end of the Pelham express either). Otherwise you would have packed locals, and fairly empty express trains passing all the passengers on the local tracks.
Passenger trends on the Culver would probably allow it, but like I said, the physical local stations on the West End and Jerome are busier than some of the physical express stations. That was also happening on Astoria. The W's were faily empty on the Astoria line because they didn't have enough stations to fill up, while the N was packed.
The Pelham el is also a unique situation. It probably would have been used either way, but the real reason it is used is not so much because the Pelham el needs express service so badly, but because the Pelham el has been blessesd with the great headways of the lexington Local. The ony reason that half the 6's run express, is because the Pelham el certainly doesn't need full lexington local service at it's stations (local or express). Some of the Pelham el stations are among the lowest used in the system. The physical express stations just got an added bonus because they have to triminate the Lexington Local somewhere, so they got express service.
Ironically, one of the els that could really use the express track, and never got it (even though it was built with provision for it under the dual contracts) is the Jamaica Ave el. There, the terminal stations are way busiser than the physical local stations, and the expresses would be just as packed as the local trains. If the Jamaica Ave el had an express track, it would be well used today. Ironically, it is one of the most necessary express tracks out of all the express tracks that were built on the dual contract els.
Usually, based from experience, in the PM rush people get off at the same station they got on during the AM rush.
As wonderful as that sounds, putting in that center track would not do much good if they don't:
1) build a station at least at WOodhaven Blvd so that passengers have the option of using the local or express.
2) building a single track along Jamaica Avenue, which would provide a shorter and faster trip for express passengers.
If both aren't done, the express would never really get off the ground because:
1) the people along that entire route (Jamaica Avenue) would protest it!
2) many people wouldn't be convence to using it there train have to negotiate those curves as the local does presently.
Of course using the same standard some Lexington Avenue stations (4 of them) don't need full Lexington local service as well, one of them actually being in the CBD....
The other Manhattan stations however need the SAS and the 3rd/Lexington Avenues bus network....
The Pelham el is also a unique situation. It probably would have been used either way, but the real reason it is used is not so much because the Pelham el needs express service so badly, but because the Pelham el has been blessesd with the great headways of the lexington Local.
Like I said, the Pelham would probably be used either way, however the real reason is the reason I mentioned. The Pelham el however is an el that fits the right reasons to run express service, even withoug the Lex local. On the Pelham el, the express stations are the busier stations on the line, unlike some of the other els that don't offer express service like the Jerome el, the West End el, etc where many of the physical express stations have lower passenger rates than the physical local stations.
"I was sorry to see the W express go"
I wasn't sorry to see it go, even though I live at an express stop. Because of one sole reason, it wasn't really an express. The people who used it weren't the bulk of Astoria riders. It was delayed often, because the stretch wasn't long enough to circumvent a delay.
W Broadway Local
Astoria Blvd or City Hall Stations
"I was sorry to see the W express go"
I wasn't sorry to see it go, even though I live at an express stop. Because of one sole reason, it wasn't really an express. The people who used it weren't the bulk of Astoria riders. It was delayed often, because the stretch wasn't long enough to circumvent a delay.
W Broadway Local
Astoria Blvd or City Hall Stations
W Broadway Local
Stand clear the closing doors, next stop! 28th Street!
W Broadway Local
But you reluctantly forgot the express track that serves the Jamaica line. It most surely would be the best express in the entire Subway system, because it would have a run from Supthin Blvd or Broadway Eastern Parkway.
Also, I might look into having some specials for the Broadway 1/9 lines, since that infrastructure might remove some of the crowds off the "A" line. It might also encourage more people to use the Broadway Line in the Bronx as well.
W Broadway Local
W Bwy
Some people save time if the express track is in use. How many people and how much time? Other people lose time if the express track is in use. How many people and how much time? Compare the results and that'll tell you whether it makes sense to run the express or not.
The only question that's open to debate is whether a minute on the platform should count as more than a minute on the train (and by how much).
In response to your "let the local riders wait" comment, do you also advocate granting local riders a discounted fare? If not, how do you justify ignoring local riders when designing service patterns?
-James
1. J/Z - This line is screaming of an express from Parsons/Archer to Myrtle Ave. The line would have to be rebuilt from Cypress Hills to Alabama Ave along Jamaica Ave with a concrete El. Then I would suggest they combine Cypress Hills and Crescent Street Station to make an Express Station. Run The Z Express making stops Manhattan bound at new express station on Jamaica, Eastern Parkway, Myrtle Ave, Marcy and Manhattan Stops.
2. F/R - Hillside Ave Express. Extend the R during Rush hour to 179th Street. You have all those Nassau County Buses terminating or at least stopping at 179th St.
These would be my top two priorites and maybe fix the damn Bergen street Interlocking.
Frank D
Frank D
Has anyone heard on where this transfer point will be built & where exactly will Court Square 2 be built at.
Robert
Is there any credible source that Citibank is going to build a "smaller version of the Citi building but used for mostly residental purposes" and upgrade a subway station as part of the deal?
I recently got an object lesson in how great the improvement has been. On a Friday night, I met a buddy at 7 p.m. and caught a movie at the AMC Theatres on 42nd near Eighth. At 9 p.m., we walked over to Seventh and 40th, and had dinner at Jack's Restaurant (a very upscale Irish/American pub which draws huge pre-theater and late-night crowds). At 11 p.m., we remained at the bar having a couple with newlyweds from Scotland visiting the city for the second time. They were impressed, I knew "The Deuce" was back, and New York is the better for it. I then rode a safe subway at 1 a.m. back to Queens.
I worked in Times Square in 1977, and again in 1986-89. Back then, between the muggers, pickpockets, kung-fu and porno theaters, cheap souvenir shops, hookers, addicts, winos, and homeless, there was no room for a decent person to breathe. Kudos to Disney, AMC, Loews, and the restaurant industry for exercising the political and investment clout to breathe life into The Deuce again.
If Citibank wants to improve LIC with another new building and an improved subway stop, so be it. That area has many great local institutions: the LIC courthouse, The Waterfront Crab House, Citicorp Center/LIC, the Court Square Diner, and the Waterside Restaurant. Maybe it'll be the new Times Square of Queens. I'm rooting for it. (And maybe the hookers and strip clubs in Queens Plaza will move on.)
As I recall, it was government spending on infrastructure (including the subway station) and government tax credits and incentives that induced the "corporate" money to come in.
Citicorp has a lot of real estate investments. Maybe this is one of their REITS (Real Estate Investment Trust, a vehicle for packaging real estate into securities for investors).
I was harrassed for taking pictures again today, this time by a plain-clothes police officer and her "boyfriend".
I was at the northern end of the Manhattan-bound platform at Parkside Avenue (Q) and I had just photographed an OOS R68 set passing by in the other direction. After it passed us, I noticed two people coming down the platform, a woman and a man. When they arrived at where I was standing, the woman showed me her NYPD badge, and asked me why I was taking pictures. I replied "it's my hobby."
I would have written her badge number down after she left, but I didn't have a pencil and paper.
She then asked me for my ID card, and I gave her my student ID. After this, she kept making references to "terrorists" and "they want to blow up the subway." I responded, "I'm just a hobbyist and these pictures are for my own personal use."
She then said "Well, you wouldn't like it if your family was on a train that was blown up?" Of course I wouldn't, but taking photographs has nothing to do with that.
I remember at the end, her "boyfriend" said "Why don't you start taking pictures of trees?" What exactly was that???
Also, at the end she rapidly switched from talking about "terrorists" and "9/11" to that I was standing in a "restricted area". Her "boyfriend" said that the entire end of the platform past the canopy was a "restricted area" and "why don't you come wait for the train where the benches are."
Well, I wasn't going to do that. I exited the station and took the B16 to Church Avenue, and then got on a B express train.
I really have had enough of this.
-RJM
Here and here they are.
They were actually R68A's (I'm not used to them being so clean.)
But this really isn't as important as the larger issue at hand.
-RJM
Did you get any photos of the officer?
What is wrong with you people?
If you got a summons for it, go straight to the 6th Floor of 505 Fulton Street, Brooklyn, and fight it! That's what I did, and here's what happened.
Your pal,
Pissed
And as soon as my mail-order AK-47 arrives I'll start shooting it into the air...
Yeah...they're gonna blow up the entire subway system in one blast.
And they're gonna do it with PICTURES OF DOOM!!!
Ummm, remember when President Bush went on the air and said that we were a free nation, full of people who are free, who have the freedom to do things they want to do? Some people like to photograph trees - and there's nothing wrong with that - and they're perfectly allowed to do so. Some people like to photograph trains - and there's nothing wrong with that - and they're perfectly allowed to do so.
If anyone has a problem with that, I think their attitude would be better suited to the Soviet Union or North Korea.
I just can't imagine a cop telling someone like me (around 30) that not being under the caonpy of an elevated or outdoor station is a 'restricted area'. I think if they did I would hurt myself laughing at them.
If it happens again, look at the badge number and repeat it a few times in your head. Ask them for their name and where they are assigned when they ask for ID... write it down right afterwards. paper, pen, camera. They go together like a sandwich these days.
I'm 14 (almost 15.)
For some wacky reason, there's some people who think because they're older than someone they can tell them incrediable dumb, untrue things, like how the ends of a platform are not public...
My bet is she was a very dumb rookie cop. It's sad, making up BS like that just makes the rest look like liars as well.
I don't suppose that replying 'or naked pics of your girlfriend' would have been too tactful, eh?
Your pal,
Fred
Your pal,
Duracell
Fear the bunny!
Your pal,
Energizer
Your pal,
Fred
Take pictures of trees ?........Trees all look alike.
You should have said do you mind if I take pictures of doughnuts !
Bill "Newkirk"
A suggestion that you take pics outside of the system.
So long as it's civil and it's polite - no unwarranted threats are made, the voices are kept down to a normal speaking tone, the physical body language isn't so aggressive (surrounding an individual, pushing them against a wall, making imposing gestures or physical contact, and the like) and it's clear that the officer is simply investigating what he/she believes to be unusual behavior (and face it, what most of us do in the subway would be considered "unusual" to most people...), then I really can't argue too much against it.
Ideally it shouldn't happen at all (if for no other reason than that the connection between rail photography and terrorism makes the Saddam Hussein - bin Laden link like scientific fact, not to mention that pesky little document called the Constitution and all those rights it grants to citizens and restraints it places on government power), but as long as things are civil and polite it's something that we can live with.
And hey - who among us wouldn't jump at the opportunity to explain a little something about our hobby to a non-railfan? I'd certainly rather have a little conversation about the subway and why I'm interested in it with an interested observer than dealing with some bureaucrat to get a photo permit. "Now you see, Officer, it's extremely unusual for an R-32, see, that train over there with the ridgy things on the sides, to be seen on this line.... did you know that the R-32 is currently the oldest car in the system still in revenue service? And this line - this was the last line built by the IND, which was the city's own subway running in competition with two private companies - it's not 100 years old like some parts of the IRT but it dates back to..." You know what I mean.
But when railfans are threatened with summonses, detainment, arrest or confiscation of property (even if they've been nothing but civil and cooperative with the investigating officer), or are informed that what they are doing is illegal (which is blatantly false except in those transit systems which actually do have photography bans in effect), then the law has overstepped its bounds. This is absolutely unacceptable and has no place in a free society, which allegedly this Republic is.
Perhaps officers are used to dealing with druggies and thugs who don't respond to any suggestion less firm than a boot to the head, but that doesn't mean everyone needs to be treated that way. Try "good cop" first, and if that fails, then "bad cop" has a right to appear. I, personally, will be a lot more forthcoming and cooperative if an officer seems to be civil and is just interested in investigating something unusual or finding out what's going on. If they come out as a hard-ass and begin screaming into my face and making threats, my lips zip up and out comes the ACLU card. Afterwards, a nice letter to One Police Plaza, a few e-mails or phone calls to some local media, and a nice complaint to the CCRB.
Are you kidding me ???!! The end of a platform past the canopy is now a restricted area? I would have politely told the "boyfriend" (who should keep his big fat annoying mouth shut as he didn't know what the hell he was talking about)that he was incorrect and the WHOLE platform is open to the public. After all they have to be, thats why most trains are 10 cars in the first place!! I would have also mentioned the MTA's rules on pics: photos ARE allowed as lone as a flash, tripod, or any other ancillary equipment is used.
As advice to all railfans again, print out the section of the MTA's rules and regulations, and highlight the portion that discusses photography in the subway, as that's one of the ways we can fight this.
-Chris
I just don't understand why so many people are not standing up for their rights and are bowing down to police officers who happen to have some wrong info.
-Broadway Buffer
Every time I mentioned it, she tried to change the subject.
-RJM
-Broadway Buffer
Well, if you're dealing with an asshole cop:
1. Say it nicely, they pay no attention or change the subject.
2. Say it nicely again, they pay no attention or change the subject.
3. Say it nicely again, they say that you're wrong, and are you trying to tell them how to do their job?
4. Say it nicely again, go straight to jail, do not pass Go.
5. And if you said it loud and forcefully so there was no way the officer could pretend to ignore it, go straight to step 4.
I suggest that --OFFICER-- review NYCRR Chapter XXI Section 1050.3a .
That won't do:
"Even though I don’t live in Washington or New York, I no longer take my camera out in public. Last year a border patrol cop threatened to take it away from me. Earlier this year I was chased away from some office buildings by corporate security types for taking pictures of trees."
-James
If he couldn't produce one, I would have asked her for the paper to write her badge # (why did you wait till after she left?), and reported her for her actions and in her presence was someone impersonating a police officer.
They wanted you to shoot them a picture of the TREE from which they got their latest weeeeeeeeeed, brah!!!!
WTF was the boytoy s-mokin???
Unlimited monthlies are an insanely great deal right now. Sure, an extra five bucks a month means $60 more a year, but if that's all it takes to keep service from being cut back, I say bring it on!
Not everyone uses it 7 days a week 4 times a day (as an example).
Expect many people to go back to the PPR.
1. already use the card many more times than the minimum needed to break even?
2. could find 4 more trips to make per month?
3. value the unlimited for what it is and aren't going to worry about the 4 extra trips?
4. give the card to a friend to use while they aren't using it?
I think most people using 30-day unlimiteds fall into one or more of the above categories and as such, the $5 rise in price will not cause people to go back to the PPR MetroCards.
Personally, I think that they should raise it to $80. I don't want to see a reduction in services, and I do want to see the subway expanded. The money needs to come from somewhere, and the riders should pay more than $1.26/ride (or whatever the average cost per ride is.)
So would I. I'd pay $80.01/month for my monthly MetroCard and never complain.
the MTA is one of the few metro systems where the majority of it's operating costs come from the fares, not from the subsidies.
in 1996, the share of actual costs covered by fares for the six largest US transit systems are atlanta 27%, Boston 29%, Chicago 47%, Los Angeles 32%, Miami 29%. also in 1996, LIRR fares covered 49% of the operating costs, and metro north 60%.
right now, 2003, fares cover about 80% of the operating costs of the NYC subway i think.
MTA Cost Recovery
$70 ÷ $1.67 = 42 rides to break even
$75 ÷ $1.67 = 45 rides to break even
Or, if you prefer to compare apples to oranges and not purchase your pay-per-rides in volume:
$70 ÷ $2 = 35 rides to break even
$75 ÷ $2 = 37.5 rides to break even, but since there's no such thing as a half ride, call it 38 rides and do a little bit better than even
Very truly yours,
Mark
Anything but service cuts, and eliminating jobs is almost as bad of an option.
To get my money's worth I often take buses one or two blocks. I'd never do that if I were paying on a per-ride basis.
Mark
One day, they have a surplus, the next day, they don't have any money. It's pathetic how they are playing this shell game with the minds of the public. Only slightly more pathetic is that not enough people are calling bullshit on their enron-like accounting and demanding to see where the money is.
No fare hikes until the accounting is public. Period.
David
I replied that the accounting IS public, and it is -- just look at the financial statements on the MTA website.
I made no declarative statement (nor did I hazard a guess) as to what decision the MTA Board will make about the fare.
David
Same questions for train 92 from Orlando to Washington.
Also, does this train usually run late in either direction? How late?
What are some things to do on the train?
And one more thing. Can someone link me to the railsale section of ebay. I can't seem to find it.
I actually just purchased some tickets for the railsale you're talking about. SHould be my first trip
Had the same questions. Plus is it possible to not go crazy that long on a train???????? I drive like a trucker and this is going to be soo different. I hope it's not 100% full(but if it was would there really be a sale?
When you click the train you want and hit save selection it says how many seats are around. Was 8 when I did it.
Let me know what week you're coming. My trip is the week of the 9th. :/ It'll give me another opportunity to surprise one of "my" chicks(who probably slept her way to a promotion..).
How long you stayin in Orlando til?
I was going to go from Winter Park(one stop before orlando from you're direction cuz they got parking) and goin to NC. But I wasn't going to be able to do it a week! I'd need to get back into the hotel industry and get free rooms to get close to that!
I hope there's some hot girls on teh train. Airports are almost as good as malls for chick watching, and truck stops are disappointing as I love to drive :(
I figure on a train, they got a couple cars and a lounge, so i'm assuming it can't be as bad as a plane right? I can't last more than 3 hours on them.
Someone help us out here!
You and me both.
If you want to meet chix on an airplane, fly Southwest. They don't have pre-assigned seating, boarding passengers in groups of 40 instead. You can grab any available seat when your group's called. As a result, if you see a chik in the departure lounge who seems interesting, you might be able to snag a seat next to her.
If you want to meet chix on an airplane, fly Southwest. They don't have pre-assigned seating, boarding passengers in groups of 40 instead. You can grab any available seat when your group's called. As a result, if you see a chik in the departure lounge who seems interesting, you might be able to snag a seat next to her.*
That reminds me of school or employee orientation type things. Or at least that's the strategy. I never thought about that for Southwest, their system always turned me off after I heard about it.
I only flown 6 times in a 2 month span(Luv AA) and I always used their autoticket machine to change my seats. Made sure I had a buffer on every flight :) And on my class trip, first flight, I did luck out with a hot girl next to me.
I forget how they described the architecture of that O-town station, supposed to be historic. Would be nice if Church Street could have train use again, though it's haunted. :)
That's right.....now put 2 and 2 together.......
Just wondering though....it says the railsale expires on the 18th. Does that mean the last day to board the train is the 18th, or do we have to be off the train by the end of the 18th?
With how O-town is set up sanford is probably where your folks live, but ORL is close to the east west.
If you want to email me the city they live in(IE, ovideo, chilutta(sp), Slavia, I can tell you which is closer. YOu also have the option of Winter Park station too.
My friends in O-town call me the human GPS cuz I know every street east of I-4. That really helps pick up the chicks....NOT.
techno779@earthlink.net
Those railsales usually end on wednesday's and then there's the next week's batch. But that train is almost always on sale anyhow.
They live near some college.....University Estates I think. For some reason...I seem to remember it being close to Orlando-Sanford Airport.
Have a good trip to Florida and PR. Give a salute to Tren Del Sur for me. And bring back some pastelillos with a cold Malta. :)
Regards,
Jimmy
As for PR. Well...I'll be in Ponce for a day, so I'll try to stop by and check out Tren Del Sur. As for bringing anything home....well....I was planning more on a suit case full of quenepas(or however you spell it, lol) and a girl or two. Hehe.
With how the news and politcs get reported ont he board i'd figure the thing would be empty!
Yes, usually by three or four hours in my experience.
(For the full sized pic, click here, then click on "View original image")
16, 24, 39, 40, 46, 59
Are you kidding? Even your corner bookie has better odds!!! Chris, it isn't the chances of winning the big prize that matters, for in that case we're really talking astronomical numbers.
What is important is how much they pay off on the "little" prizes. About ten years ago, I did some computation on the lottery here in Israel. The rules at that time were (not the same now, but that doesn't matter)
There were 49 numbers on the panel (1-49)
You pick six numbers.
They drew six balls plus a supplementary.
Approximate payoffs for a $1 ticket:
Grand prize (hit all 6) - about 3 million in those days
2nd prize (5 hits and the supp) - 125,000
3rd prize (5 hits) - 1,500
4th prize (4 hits) - 100
5th prize (3 hits) - $1.50
6th prize (2 hits + the supp) - 75 cents
I write a little program which took a six-number pick and ran 50,000 "weeks" of random drawing. Did this about 100 times. The basic results were that I wound up with half my money back at the end. Not very profitable!
And if you think that's a ripoff, even worse are all the varieties of "scratch and sniff" INSTANT WINNERS that the Lotto Commission can think up! Mostly because I have NEVER seen someone plunk down a quarter (yeah, we have them that cheap) and when he won, say "give me the money" and put the fifty cents or the dollar in his pocket. Usually it's "give it to me in tickets" which of course turn out to be losers. OY!!!!!
Shalom from Tel Aviv.
That is exactly what one would expect. Lotteries are designed to raise money for good causes (well, the UK is, anyway) and they often give about half of their takings to good causes, leaving half (plus or minus a bit for operating expenses) for prizes.
-Broadway Buffer
I have no idea what this is about, but it's nice to see NYC isn't getting entirely boring. Bring back the weirdness!
"M O D in the house"
"Lets go Mets"
It was the capper to probably the strangest day of railfanning I've ever undertaken.
...but since it seems you know a couple of things, maybe you could clear up some confusion I hold: 1) Will there be one loop or two? 2) Does the reconstruction of the Roosevelt Avenue bridge have anything to do with Corona and 3) Will any spots be impeded for photo ops?
The thing is, it doesn't make much sense to have that second loop so far from the only leads near 111th... I'm speculating the reconstruction of the Roosevelt Avenue Bridge will bring new leads. This should make it easier to pull OOS trains/layups from Main Street.
Thanks!!
While entering the station on a Northbound (A) express, I saw an 8-car set of R46s stopped at the local tracks. The side LCD signs read "F: Culver Lcl." I didn't catch any more because of the staggered platforms.
Why on earth was the 6th Av. line running on the 8th up there?
\\Julian
(N)(Q)(R)(W) IT IS BY THE D TRAIN EXIT AT 32ND STREET
til next time
Also, if a subway is constructed under existing residential buildings, how deep does it have to be so that no one is disturbed by subway operation?
Seriously, the answer (at least to the first question) probably changes depending on which street is being talked about.
David
That's what Environmental Impact Statements are for.
David
There are instruments that will be able to detect subway operations, regardless of the depth. In some ways tunneling through bedrock makes it easier to detect vibrations from subway operations. If the buildings were also connected to bedrock, then the there would be a fairly good path for subway operations to vibrate the building.
R-32.
Reuse existing rail ROW
Elevated Structure
Cut and Cover Subway
Tunnel through earth
Tunnel through rock
The bottom line is that the basic construction cost goes up the further you go down. And in a city like New York there are parts of the water and sewer systems far below the streets, and often not directly under them. Every possible route is different, and yes there are fewer utilities down deep, but if you have to move one down there, it's a lot more expensive.
Moust utilities are fairly close to the surface, the big exception being sewer lines which may be a good 30 to 50 feet or more below the surface depending on thier location.
As far as property rights goes, how deep is down or how far is up?
Certainly a land owner has some air rights, and I suppose is presumed to own the land to whatever depth. Some landowners do not on the mineral rights to their own land, and a mineral company can some in and extract the minerals without other notice.
I presume it will take legislation to state that "Sub-surface rights extend only 100 feet" (or whatever) or perhaps to the bedrock level.
The World Trade Center sat on the bedrock level. For most of the city, surface structures would be unaffected by digging through the bedrock level. The new water tunnels move deep through the bedrock perhaps as much as 300 to 500 feet below the surface.
That would surely not interfere with most surface improvements, but it would be one heck of a long climb from the platform to the surface, and we all know how reliable the escalators and elevators are.
Elias
As for property acquisition, again, it depends on the individual property affected. Some properties include subsurface/mineral rights and some don't. It takes research into the deeded history of a parcel of land to determine exactly what is owned and what other rights run with the land. In addition, there normally has to be a really good reason to acquire land, i.e. better routing, station size requirements, that kind of thing. Eminent domain isn't a free ride for the entity using it; some semblance of market value has to be paid the affected property owners.
So, there's no standard answer to your question. Naturally, a subway would want to be as close to the surface as possible, and probably be built above sewer and water lines in case of their respective failures, but that's not always possible. I guess you can appreciate why these things cost so much to build.
Your pal,
Fred
Your pal,
Fred
As an A train pulled in, I glanced over and saw a train of slant R-40s on the local track with a magentaAA sign! I boarded the A train and we were on our way. 50th St. also had a high ceiling with no I-beams between any of the tracks. And get this: the downhill slope began at the north end and continued though the station. Then, instead of building up a head of steam and racing down the incline toward 42nd St., we slowed down! The reason - timers! AAARRRGGGHHHHH!!!!!! I thought, the field shunt mod was bad enough, but this?!? Puh-leeeease.
This wasn't the first time that 59th St. figured in a subway dream. I had one once where the express tracks were gone and only the trackways remained.
Well, I did have some subway-related dreams too.
One of them is the endless G train that is passing by Fulton Street. Somehow, everyone manages to board except for me, who I'm busy swiping the Metrocard to no avail. I then wake up.
I was on a train of R-143s, but not on the Eastern Division. Instead of that funky glass in the cab door that only allows you to see straight ahead, there was a thin uncovered strip of clear glass to look through, similar to what the R-46s had.
This train was signed up as a T and we were on the West End line, but there was no elevated structure. Instead, the line ran along the street and there was no track, no third rail, no overhead wires, no nothing!!! And to top it off, the T/O could steer the train! He pulled right around a car that was double parked.
What next?:)
I know, I know, you can't run revenue service between the two lines due to the differing standards, but it would provide another point of access (besides QBP) between the 7 and the rest of the subway.
I would rather see a connection between the 7 and another IRT line. A spur off the 7 east of Grand Central to the Lexington Av 4/5/6 would be better.
I don't think that adding trafic to a subway line that is operating at over 130% of capacity is such a great idea.
A lot of people do go from Times Square to Bryant Park, y'know.
Currently, in order to get IRT rolling stock from the mainline to the 7, one must:
(1) Ride the 1 or the 4 up to 207th or Concourse Yard, where connection via yard tracks is available to the A or the D.
(2) Come back down on the A or the D, down 6th Ave, past W 4th, over the Manhattan Bridge north side.
(3) Relay at De Kalb (or wherever appropriate), and come back up the Manhattan Bridge south side and the Broadway BMT.
(4) Go through the 60th St. Tunnel, and at QBP switch over to the 7.
With the new connection one could simply travel from the 207th or Concourse Yard down the 8th Ave line directly to the 7. Going the other way would admittedly be more difficult since the lower level connects directly to the southbound IND (requiring switching across multiple tracks) - but that's another fish to fry later.
Connecting to the 8th Ave line at Times Sq seems particularly easy since they have to go right through the lower level of the IND. Plus, the lower level's currently not used for revenue service so the connection could be made without disrupting service (any more than it would be anyway for the construction). Any other connection (such as to any of the IRT lines) would require extensive track construction, disruption of tracks used in revenue service, and the like.
Besides, Corona is being reconstructed.
I envision a track connection similar to what the Washington Metro has near the Metro Center station.
Subway Extension – Hudson Yards Development
c/o MTA New York City Transit
Government & Community Relations
130 Livingston Street
Brooklyn, NY 11201
David
David
Why is this? Is it a safety issue where the trains would have to enter the station at a slower speed?
David
"There are even two private trains underneath the convention floor, courtesy of the railroad industry, with luxury club cars serving as cocktail and cigar lounges for top Democratic officials."
Nobody here complained about the Union Pacific train with three E9's and thirty private cars at the RNC in Philly four years ago.
There were cops all over the place, and traffic was messed up. The BSS ran extra service.
If there was evidence that the closing of North Station was at the request of Democratic Party officials, then I and many others would be cursing them out. But all I've heard is that MA and Boston officials thought out the closing all on their own. That makes them stupid and/or lazy, but it doesn't mean the party officials asked a favor.
Is there a difference between a MA or Boston official and an official of the Democratic Party? I had always assumed they were one and the same.
James Bond's early adventures had the best lines...
"This bomb has a tiny gyroscope. Any lateral movement on your part and you could be served in an eggcup."
"That's a Smith and Wesson, and you've already had your six."
-"Where is Goldfinger?"..."Playing his golden harp."
-"Well, I suppose my silence...has a price."
-"The SPECTRE of defeat...It's your SPECTRE against mine"
-"Madam Duvalle, how many times I told you not to open the car door by yourself?"
These were some of the best lines, the latter films by Bronsan were more sleaze and sexual than the eariler Moore and Connery films. Keeping on topic, Connery would return on the same Orient Express 11 years later to do "Murder on the Orient...", while Shaw in the same year would be every railfans most beloved enemy, Mr. Gray in "Pelham". Notice the similarties between "Russia" and "Pelham", where Robert Shaw "surrenders" peacefully.
The highlight of the day was trying to eat a hamburger using only my front teeth. My wisdom teeth had been surgically removed the previous week and the stitches were still in place. Lots of fun.
Jimmy
And monorails.org has more photos of the star trek monorail, among the others.
No they wouldn't. Have you been to Vegas? This monorail allows people to jump around from one casino to another. There is way too much trafic to allow people to do that by bus, without spending a ridiculous amount of time in a bus.
On the other hand, if you take a look at some of the riff raff on the peoplemovers, this makes perfect sense. COmmuter rail has good clientele since it costs more, and so will this(if you consider drunks and mid-westerners good clients). ;)
Jimmy
Bob
The "2" express could never happen, because it is really a super local if you look at it.
It runs local in Harlem and not until 96 Street it becomes an express. But the trip that it takes to get to that point makes any attempt as being express in the Bronx, a mute point.
W Broadway Local
To eliminate the V also seems unwise. The route is very useful for many and the only improvement I can think of would be to merge it with part or whole of another line. Maybe the M or via new construction the L. To eliminate the V in favor of the G seems particularly unwise. The G should probably be cut back to Court Sq at all times but possibly extended south along the Culver line enabling more F trains to short-turn increasing service for the more used parts of the line north of Church Av. Or the MTA could implement a policy of not artificially limiting capacity at Forest Hills in which case the G could run to there.
I don't think 57 St/6 Av should be used as a terminal cutting off F service via 63 St. If it must be sent via the unused connection then send it uptown or to the Bronx.
I find merit in sending the R via 63 St but that's only feasible if the Q is sent to Queens or uptown via 2 Av. Some posts have voiced concern that the switching involved would result in delays and that's a real concern. I don't think sending the R via 63 St is too large a burden on current R riders if service is faster than it would be by merging the R with the N/W via 60 St.
I would also get to work extending the Hillside Av line to the city line.
It being a Williamsburg Br line via Chrystie St.
Leave my J train alone. It doesn't need to go to midtown--the K or KK does. The V train should die. Riders in Queens need fulltime G service.
Nuff said.
Funny how most riders in Queens say exactly the opposite. The transfer at Ely Av is not difficult.
The only thing that should die is that other 1970s-era idea, disco.
Under my plan:
The F is via 53rd, how would it even get to 57th st?
The R is going via 63rd, how would it wind up going through 57th & 6th when its a Broadway line?
The J late nights will go from Broad street to Jamaica Center Via Broadway BROOKLYN. What does that have to do with the Chrystie Connector?
The F works fine the way it is...why change it? the local on 53rd st[V] works!
Removing the R from 60th st would be a mistake...unless you are going to replace it with something else...
a nd the second quote was mine ONLY.. not the first..
-Broadway Buffer
With the newsubway, trains can be turned at 72nd street or run the full line.
Another point,the Jamaica line on 6th ave would be a great relief valve for the A/C/F and L lines.....It would speed up the trip from the 14th st area to ENY,reducing some of the loads on the affected routes...also,it would effectively remove some riders from the Canal st station transfer with the N/Q Broadway lines...by eliminating well known back tracking with direct service to Midtown.
It's doing what it was built for" a new river tunnel to the Queens Bypass Super express,with connections to the Queens Blvd subway near the Queens Plaza..."
the 63RD st subways connection to the Broadway line is for the Second ave Subway......
Wow thats really interesting, whats even more interesting is that
the BROADWAY SUBWAY LINE CONNECTS directly to this tunnel, and to Queens...
where its meant for an express Broadway train, like the Q, to connect to the SAS.
The fact still remains.
So stop PLAYIN"!
Im sure they will. I saw behind that wall on a MOD trip, it will take no effort to take it down. Its also not at the "Center" of the platform, its actually closer to the edge of the other side of the platform. Id say 75% of the current platform is "exposed" at that stion.
-Broadway Buffer
Which lines do you think that could work for?
UNLESS the V were local to 179 Street/Hillside so the F could actually (gasp!) run express like it was designed to do....
My motto: no express tracks should EVER go unused!!!!!
-Broadway Buffer
We'll have to ask the experts: Did the Budd R32's cost more per car to manufacture than their contemporaries which weren't constructed completely from stainless steel?
I heard somewhere thatThe TA had 5 choices for the R38
Composite Budd
Stainless Budd
Composite St Louis
Stainless St Louis
Painted St Louis
The TA made their choice due to a combination of weight and price.
BTW They had a SHARP paintscheme lined up for the R38s...
Sort of like a reverse squared off WF R36 scheme, in Kale Green, not blue.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
David
David
For more on this stuff, see the Railway Technical Pages Electric Traction page: http://www.trainweb.org/railwaytechnical/tract-02.html
\\Julian
For more on this, see here: http://www.trainweb.org/railwaytechnical/tract-02.html
"Amtrak’s new ads for its Acela Express trains are paying off in ways the railroad never expected – by selling themselves, the passenger carrier says. “Customer response to the campaign has been so strong that Amtrak has taken the unusual step of selling posters of the award-winning advertising at its online store (www.amtrak.com/store), says Barbara Richardson, Amtrak’s marketing and sales vice-president. “You know you’re doing something right when your advertising can generate revenue,” she said. The Acela campaign began in September 2003. Graphic artist Michael Schwab is best known for his work for Apple, Coke, and Nike."
Interestingly, about 3 months ago, I e-mailed Amtrak asking them if their posters were for sale. I guess I wasn't the only one asking.
The scenic railway near my parents' home near Akron, OH just acquired an M-3 RDC for its operations. The railway runs through the Cuyahoga river valley and has several trips per week. Some track is owned by the Cuyahoga Valley National Park and some is owned by the Akron METRO RTA. METRO also owns some cars that the railway leases. It seems that METRO is trying (maybe covertly) aquire resources as they become available for a commuter rail system. I wonder if there are some railfans in the ranks! Cleveland's GCRTA also seems to have some railfans in the ranks as they keep the Rapid quite nice despite the ridership numbers. They also seem to be open to having events like last year's runs of the CA&E cars.
http://www.cvsr.com/
Hopefully I will soon have some pictures of a trip I took online.
Matt
Just a reminder to everyone who has NOT YET signed the rail/busfan photographers' rights petition to please visit the above link and do so...and please also pass it along to your fellow rail/busfans across the USA and around the world.
Thanks.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Probably a bit too far fetched. Probably the rantings of the 2 disgruntled/about to be fired workers mentioned above - or it could be someone else.
It will be interesting to see how this plays out.
pages 6 through 9
BTW, what camera do you use?
My grandson didn't get into these photos, but Brian and Koi did.
Brian and Koi
What upset me is that
1. They didn't even try to compensate service, or offer anything back to the customer for waiting an extra hour.
2. 3 deadhead trains, and none could'nt be activated.
So late in the morning rush hour (outbound at 8:50) it's not likely that all 3 deadhead trains were really going to go inbound right away again. After all, they wouldn't have gotten to NWP till 9:30, by which time the schedule is almost at mid-day levels.
Oh Oh... now you got us curious...
Elias
Michael Finfer
Bridgewater, NJ
>From Walter E. Zullig.
Forwarded for info and, if you've been hassled by NJT, action. Contact
the Mr Zullig, wezrail@aol.com, or the NJ ACLU directly, 89 Market St,
Newark, NJ 07102-1702, 973-642-2626.
> Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 12:32:24 EDT
> Subject: ACLU -- NJT Photography
>
> Yesterday I had a call from Helen Ford at the New Jersey ACLU's office
> in Newark. She was responding to my most recent letter and enclosures.
>
> Ms. Ford advised that they will be meeting with NJ Transit in an effort
> to resolve this matter. Meanwhile, however, she would like to know if
> anyone has been arrested or threatened with arrest for taking NJT
> photos. I responded that to the best of my knowledge the NJT police
> have been intimidating railfans with vague language but that nobody has
> been told of a possible penalty for a "violation." Moreover, I advised
> that I never had heard of an arrest or threat to make such an arrest on
> NJTransit. My personal view is that their Chief knows he is on very
> shaky legal ground and has told the officers to hassle photographers
> but to go no further.
>
> So, in addition to keeping you up to date on developments, the purpose
> of this email is to inquire as to you or anyone you know has been
> arrested or threatened with arrest for photography from public areas of
> NJT. Remember, we need facts, not hearsay or statements read on the
> Internet. Any persons having such knowledge can get in touch with me
> or, if they prefer, directly with Ms. Ford.
>
> Feel free to pass this message on to friends who might possibly have
> the information ACLU is seeking.
"public areas of NJT" - this means platforms, stations, etc., basically the non-restricted areas, correct? This doesn't mean just shooting NJT from off of NJT property, like along the River LINE, correct?
And also, contact the ACLU in New York and other cities if any of you have been hassled by transit and law enforcement officials in other locations for engaging in rail/busfan photography...a perfectly harmless, recreational, and LEGAL activity.
It's time to stop complaining...and start fighting back.
On July 4 a non-threatening 74-year old railfan got off a northbound NJTransit River LINE train at Walter Rand T.C. and proceeded to photograph "his" train from NJT property. A plainclothes NJT cop, doing the job that NJT executive morons wanted him to do, rushed forward and told the gentleman that NJT photography was prohimited, and extended his hand to ruin the photo. The non-confrontational gentleman quietly walked away.
Ha! I'm only 63, nine months younger than Sea Beach Fred.
It wasn't me. The photographer, who wishes to remain anonymous, mailed me the color print for me to scan it and put it on the internet. Stupidly, I outed him when I emailed the photo url to my email list and mentioned that he (I named him) had previously described the incident to the email list.
But ACLU needs complaintants to come forward. Especially if the cops prohibited you from taking photos from public property, they wanna hear from you. They need dates, locations and times. If this happened to you - and you're willing to give an ACLU lawyer a statement - please email me offlist and I will put you in touch with the right person. We need to stop complaining and start fighting back.
The worst part of it is, while the cops are running around playing 'harass the railfan' they're gonna miss the real terrorists if and when they show up. Tommy
Exactly. That's the way it always works. They're strip searching the 80-year-old great-grandma with knitting needles in her carryon at the airport while ten people with suspicious packages board the plane in the meantime. I don't think taking pictures in the subway is really suspicious behavior. What is in that picture that you couldn't see just standing on a platform watching the trains go by? If the terrorists want the info, they'll get it, whether they can take pictures or not.
Huh?
You'll find it there, along with other articles on this very issue.
Da Hui
;-) Broadway Buffer
-James
Then again, both the ACLU and I believe in the right to disagree with one another, so it's not all that bad.
Viz:
http://archive.aclu.org/library/aaguns.html
The courts have determined repeatedly that an INDIVIDUAL does not HAVE a right to arms (read above) ... that said just so's folks know where *I* stand on the issue personally, the FINAL STRAW for me living in the Bronx was when I came home from work one night, I was shot one inch above the "jewels" by a drunk moron on a rooftop across the street who was "pickin' off anybody they could." As luck would have it, I was the only one that afternoon who TOOK a bullet. It hurt like phuck and when I got carted off by the "public ambulance" to Fordham Hospital (yes, I still have BOTH legs *and* da jewels, remarkable) I got the "bedside police inquest" ... if you've never been through one of those in bed with your ass hung up in the air, it goes something like "OK, son ... what did you *DO* to get yourself shot? DRUGS? Robbery? Did you do his female?" Cops who responded to the scene let the phucker get away. *THAT* was the last straw. I moved upstate and to HELL with the city right then and there.
Upon moving upstate, in every place I've lived, my friends and neighbors are largely gun owners and shooters. That's probably why we have so little crime. We don't wait for the sheriff, we drag their carcass across the threshhold of the door and THEN call the sheriff. :)
I have *no* problem with guns, gun owners, and particularly hunters to whom I'm forver grateful for all that yummy vennison we eat all winter. Bambi MUST die! But I'm not a gun owner myself, and the rule of the house here is "holster that sucker in the house, or better yet, leave it in the truck." My cop buddies do so as well. House rule, or no beer for you. Heh. The ONLY requirement I'd ever want to see imposed is "learn how to *AIM*. :)
But as far as ACLU, check out the Constitution, as iterpreted by the Supreme Court ... they have no choice but to be neutral on the issue. If personal gun ownership WERE in the Constitution (as interpreted) I believe they'd be front and center on the issue, like so many others that they abhor but MUST defend under their charter.
While it's true that defense of the country against foreign invaders has been "subcontracted" to a professional military force, and enforcement of the laws has been "subcontracted" to professional law enforcement officers, does this mean that the rest of us have lost the right to self-defense, or the right to own a gun simply because it pleases us to do so (remember, the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?) If not, then why not limit freedom of speech to press corps professionals, or the right to a trial only to criminal defense attorneys, or the freedom of religion only to tithing members of state-approved churches? After all, we've "subcontracted" for the most part various vital tasks to these groups as well.
Granted, there must be some limitation to the right to "bear arms" - if not, is there anything preventing me from bearing nuclear arms, or nerve gas, or a vial of anthrax? And I'd have no problem with requiring people to pass marksmanship and gun safety tests, particularly if they want to carry in a populated area - this is done for the safety of others. The trouble is, in too many cases, gun control is applied in an arbitrary and discriminatory way (try to get a carry permit in NYC and you'll see what I mean).
Oh well, scratch the first sentence above... I just can't shut myself up :)
"Granted, there must be some limitation to the right to "bear arms""
"Oh well, scratch the first sentence above... I just can't shut myself up :)"
Why scratch it? There should be a certain limitation, you explained why yourself.
-James
I certainly hope not, why should everyone have to wear long sleeves?
I meant to scratch the first sentence in my post, in which I said I wasn't going to debate the gun control point...
But actually carry permits are a relatively new phenomenon, only becoming available in most states in the last 15 years or so. Of course people carried before that, just not legally in many cases. As far as plain old ownership goes, then it behooves the owner to take proper care in their secure storage and safe use, to ensure they don't fall into the wrong hands.
ACLU has taken up numerous "right wing" issues that were distasteful to the other side as well, but you don't hear about those. You have to defend *every* liberty, not just those you agree with.
You can own, carry, conceal, stick where the sun don’t shine…as many firearms as you can possibly want…
But…
You need a license and permit to own ammunition!
Don't you want to see this thing resolved in our favor?
-James
Not to be pedantic (actually, yes, I am going to be pedantic) but if you're talking about someone who stands accused of a crime, they're *not* a criminal; they're a *suspect*. That means they still deserve the right to a fair and speedy trial (as opposed to indefinite detention at Guantanamo or some military tribunal).
Or is it true that if someone accuses you of some heinous crime, you don't have the right to a trial, since what you allegedly did is so terrible you don't have the right to answer?
And if you're already in prison, you still have the right to be treated as a human being (however inhuman your crimes may have been). I think sometimes we go too far with the prison cable TV and all, but have we learned nothing from Abu Ghraib? "We" are supposed to be better than "them," where "they" are the people, whoever they are, who do horrible things, so emulating their behavior doesn't reflect too well on us.
It's been said many times by many people, that the test of whether we're truly free and truly have rights and protections is to be found in how we treat the most undesirable and the least powerful members of society. Is our criminal trial system fair - ask someone accused of a capital crime or an accused terrorist, whether they turn out to be guilty or not. Do we have freedom of speech - ask a pornographer, a socialist party member or a KKK member. Or Howard Stern. Do we treat the indigent fairly and provide them a safety net - ask your local corner homeless person (though quite likely he'll spin a million drug-induced fantasy stories, look for the truth) or single mother trying to raise her kids on a minimum wage income. And so on.
Complaining about this issue is one thing. Taking action on this issue is another thing...I mean, we have to take this issue and do something about it...as a group, NOT as individuals...because an individual can do many thing, but an organized group of individuals can do much greater things than just one person...
I can go on and on and on reading and talking about getting hassled and stuff, and I can read on and on about people who take photos and get hassled, only to show them that it IS legal and they shouldn't have been stopped, but there's nothing like actually taking action so that NOBODY comes up to you and hassles you...that EVERYONE knows the rules and the rights of persons photographing in the NYC subway system or any rail system. There's nothing like taking some action and putting a stop to this...things have gotten worse, such as in the case of NJ Transit, but if the worse can get worse, without our actions, it WILL...
Please, folks...let's win this as a group...we will have a number of people to thank for this...
SAS
http://www.cleanairbus.com
Da Hui
EXACTLY! Its becoming increasingly clear that the way this is going, the paranoia [to put it best] and the same reasons for why we can't take photos, its will go all over the country and our rights are gone and we cannot let that happen. Also how is it going with your current situation?
Its one photo, throw it out, delete it or w/e. He didn't take the entire camera and smash it so lets move on with life and stop cop-bashing.
-Broadway Buffer
The point is not necessarily that the NJT guy ruined the photo...cuz if that's the case, everyone would be whining on this board about photos ruined because people 'accidentally' stepped in the way...and that may be literally tens of thousands, especially on NYTM and MOD trips...the point is that NJ Transit and NJ Transit Police seem to be going all out of their way to prevent photographers from taking photographs of their rail system, even of street-running operations such as the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail and the RiverLINE...THAT is the point...New Jersey Transit is going above and beyond to make sure that their system doesn't get photographed by anyone in fear that the photographs might get into the wrong hands and something as terrible occurs, such as a terror attack...not only are people getting stopped on rail station platforms, mezzanines and even on trains, but even on PUBLIC STREETS!! Now, i'm sorry, but that's reason for me to cause an uproar...since it's the city, town, or other municipality that governs what citizens can or cannot do, NOT NJ Transit Police...but from what I have heard, there are some areas of NJT that may have solely given NJT Police whole jurisdiction of the proper enforcement of NJ Transit law in stations or within station boundaries (yes, that includes streets adjacent to the facilities), on board trains, and on NJT or NJT Police property.
Now, I think you better think twice before scrutinizng people on this board just for making responses to this thread which may seem to you a bit asanine for whatever reason...because incidents like that are violation of rights regarding personal property, photography, and overall pursuit of enjoyment, which I think you don't give a rat's as about...
Oh, I just remembered...you do TAKE PICTURES of trains, you just claim you love them so much...
Well, lemme tell you something...two things:
1--If that person would have touched Bob's camera, that person would be violating Bob's right to photograph and violating that right to personal property, NOT Bob for photographing on NJT property...because it's fun, it's worthwhile, it's enjoyable, it's harmless, and it's legal!
2--If you, for any reason whatsoever, decide that you want to take photos of trains just because you've seen everybody do it and produce great train documentation (and art, in some cases), and NJT wins this battle and then decides to ban other things that normal railfans do, such as loitering, waiting around for particular trains with no intention of getting somewhere specific, and recording parts of rail systems or whatnot, or to ban such things as eating and drinking on trains and platforms just to keep them clean, THEN you will feel the need to say something, THEN you will get hit hard by what I am saying to you, THEN you won't be so happy after all...so take what you got and cherish it, before someone decides it ain't good for ya...
But, wait, I just remembered, most of the last few posts you have made in the past few months rarely made any sense, nor do they seem sympathetic or in any way appearing like you actually read and understand them...
I don't know what your purpose is for being on this board, but it ain't helping if we have people like you who are just here to lurk and play around...well, THIS is NOT the place, that's what a playground is for...
Have a good day.
SAS
http://www.cleanairbus.com
Now that's not true, I do take my rights very seriously and I understand people's rights to photograph as I said in my last post about sticking up for the rights. I'm against the photo ban, but if there is a place with one, I am for following the law and not breaking it as a protest.
"Oh, I just remembered...you do TAKE PICTURES of trains, you just claim you love them so much... "
I'll assume it was a typo w/ the you do take pics was a typo, u obviously meant to say I don't take pics, which is true, cuz I don't. Where is it written in stone that you must take pictures to be a railfan? I remember what I see for myself and tell others about it, with all the pics on this and many other sites, is it necessary that I share more pics with you than are already here? R-143 said he went on an MOD trip and didn't take any pics. Do u feel the same way about him as you do me? I went online to get more info on the Subway than the MTA offered on their site, so I searched and ended up here where I thought I could find out some stuff and comment on various things. It didn't say in the ground rules that u had to be an expert to post here, but according to u, I should go back and look because I must have missed it.
"But, wait, I just remembered, most of the last few posts you have made in the past few months rarely made any sense, nor do they seem sympathetic or in any way appearing like you actually read and understand them..."
I interpret other posts the way I do, maybe I misunderstood some, and I admit to doing some stupid things like blaming DQ for changing rollsigns which he still hasn't forgiven me for, and by arguing with vengence, and I said that I'm sorry. But I think it is rather foolish to say that my posts didn't make any sense, because many of them that actually had to do with subways made sense in my opinion and others.
"I don't know what your purpose is for being on this board, but it ain't helping if we have people like you who are just here to lurk and play around...well, THIS is NOT the place, that's what a playground is for..."
That's an ironeous assumption and that is not shared by everyone on this board. I stated the reasons why I'm here already, and I'm not here to play around. Why are u here? To criticize people who choose to be a railfan the way they wish? Who choose that they don't want to take pics? Who are u to make these ground rules?
In conclusion, write feedback to David P saying you don't want me around. And let him decide if I can stay or not. I'm don't want to start another war here. I'll so my best to stop "playing around" even though I really don't think I am. And if David doesn't kick me off and u don't want to read my posts, don't! That's what killfile if for. It will be as if I never existed here.
So please, you have a good day too, and lets move on and not have a war over this.
-Broadway Buffer
ok, it WAS a typo, that first statement...but where do you go off saying that I implied that you have to take pics in order to be a railfan? That was NOT implied by my statements. All I was saying was that if you are a railfan, I would think that one would sympathize with those of us that take photographs, assuming or in the case that you want to do the same yourself someday...THAT WAS IT. Don't try to put words in my mouth...it won't work...
And who said that the ground rules said you had to be an expert to post here? Now, you're just making shit up just for the sake of arguing about it...and that's not cool...
>>>"But, wait, I just remembered, most of the last few posts you have made in the past few months rarely made any sense, nor do they seem sympathetic or in any way appearing like you actually read and understand them..."
I interpret other posts the way I do, maybe I misunderstood some, and I admit to doing some stupid things like blaming DQ for changing rollsigns which he still hasn't forgiven me for, and by arguing with vengence, and I said that I'm sorry. But I think it is rather foolish to say that my posts didn't make any sense, because many of them that actually had to do with subways made sense in my opinion and others.<<<
What I meant by this statement is that most of what I read from you seems as if you didn't really get the jist of a certain person's posts or something to that effect...that did not imply that it wasn't on topic, there's a difference, we both know that...It's not that they weren't on topic, it's just that, using a case in point...the last few photo ban threads, which you responded with what seemed to be little sympathy for those of us who feel our photography rights are being violated, there are some issues that you may or may not agree with, but please understand where we are coming from, that's all we ask...
>>>"I don't know what your purpose is for being on this board, but it ain't helping if we have people like you who are just here to lurk and play around...well, THIS is NOT the place, that's what a playground is for..."
That's an ironeous assumption and that is not shared by everyone on this board. I stated the reasons why I'm here already, and I'm not here to play around. Why are u here? To criticize people who choose to be a railfan the way they wish? Who choose that they don't want to take pics? Who are u to make these ground rules? <<<
Seems a bit foolish to ask that question, but let me answer that...I am here to share views, contribute and gain insight and information about rail systems and the like, I am serious most of the time I am on this board, and the times when it gets silly is when people post MOD trip photos or there are some links to news articles that I find amusing..that's about it...and btw, I think you "ironeous" is a typo, you MEANT to say "erroneous," and I know a number of people who might actually agree with me, just look at the archive of posts on this board, esp from people that post like 50 messages a day, most of them not even on-topic, and for what? Why do you think Mr. Pirmann shut down the Talks some time ago, and why do you think he put censoring on this board at one point in time? Why do you thin he has that message above the posting button below the text box?
I think it's safe to say that I've been on this board longer than you have, and have paid attention to what has gone on here, so I can (safely) make that assumption. And it doesn't mean that everyone here acts like that, there are a few people that actually behave themselves here...
And we have to cut this bickering out and get serious, because after photography is banned, other railran-related things might see the scrutiny of a PD officer, such as loitering, esp. for folks who like to go up to train platforms just to watch trains go by...let's get serious and on focus here...
>>>In conclusion, write feedback to David P saying you don't want me around. And let him decide if I can stay or not. I'm don't want to start another war here. I'll so my best to stop "playing around" even though I really don't think I am. And if David doesn't kick me off and u don't want to read my posts, don't! That's what killfile if for. It will be as if I never existed here.<<<
I don't have time for kicking people off this board for silly reasons, and neither does Pirmann, so dont even go there...as for killfiling, that almost never works, don't ask how...it just doesn't...it's not that I don't wanna read your posts, it's that we need ammunition against our cause,and you're not helping, though I wish you would at least TRY to help us...
>>>So please, you have a good day too, and lets move on and not have a war over this. <<<
War? What war? I'm fighting agansit those who want to take my hobby away, what war are you fighting? LOL
C'mon...
SAS
I was not putting words in your mouth, I honestly thought that when u said that I say I love trains so much, yet I don't take any photos sounded like u were saying in order to be a railfan u have to take photos. It was a misinterpretation, sue me. Same for my typo, I wasn't critizizing u for your's, just pointing it out to make sure that's what u meant. Any misunderstanding's here can lead to big conciquneces as I have discovered.
„I wish you would at least TRY to help us..."
I'm not against your cause and I am against the photo ban because I don't want to see a stop put to something that means that much to so many of u, but the reason why I may seem to not help u if because in the process of fighting for your rights, many of you seem to act as if u are against the police with cop bashing. Someone said they were willing to go to prison for life for their right to photo. To me that's utter stupidity.
War? What war?"
Who know's, I thought possibly one to get me off here.
-James
Many people on this board have been in this hobby for many years, and are very hurt and frustrated about what is currently being done to it and them in the name of "security." They deeply resent suddenly being treated as if they are "terrorists" and "criminals" for simply pursuing their activities as they have done for a long time without harrassment, interference, and threats by over-zealous law-enforcement and mass transit officials.
Why is it so hard for you to appreciate this?
No one here is suggesting that you not post here at all. All we are asking is that you try to show a little more compassion here. This issue means a great deal to a tremendous number of people.
As my parents and grandparents have often said, "If you have nothing nice to say, say nothing at all."
So when you say that you think we are against the police and cop-bashing all over the place, keep that in mind.
SAS
2. The killfile function works well. Just copy the exact handle and paste it in the killfile box. Zoom zoom, annoyance gone.
Just to keep the record straight.
Wasn't even thinking about "errorism". More like, what are you doing there; you a pickpocket, or a hustler, or a mugger? Move along.
That's not the big deal.
That 74 yr old should have just told the officer that he was wrong and that in that area there was no ban instead of quietly walking away!
The 74-year old was aware of NJT's current policy of banning photography of NJT from NJT and he knew that he was in violation of that policy.
Are naturally such an idiot, or do you have to work hard at it?
-Broadway Buffer
Wrong again.
You don't get it.
-Broadway Buffer
-Broadway Buffer
-James
Actually I distrust all of them... some more than others though.
And as far as Clinton goes, I'd have no problem bringing him back as President - I agreed with most of his policies, and we did very well under his administration. If he got a little side action and lied about it, well, I can live with that. Besides, how many American boys got sent off to some godforsaken country to die because of his lies? With the current administration, I think that number is now over 1000.
-James
For what it's worth, had the American public (and more immediately relevant), members of the US Congress, known the truth about the Administration's WMD and terrorism claims, they would not have supported the war effort at any stage, so what I alone think is meaningless anyway - in order to go to war there doesn't need to be a simple majority in favor, but an overwhelming majority in favor, to justify sending our boys and girls out to die on a foreign battlefield. And that's why it's unacceptable.
On a more fundamental level, the Constitution specifically allocates to the Congress the power to wage war - the Congress, and no one else (except in a very limited sense outlined in the Constitution, the President). It is an open, legislative body, so there is a public record of what is said and done, and who voted which way. It is a body of many equals, not few in a hierarchy, in which individual cults of personality hold far less sway and will be neutralized by the cooler heads of the many. And you can bet each and every Congressperson will be called to account for the way he/she voted, because their electorate will know what they said and how they voted. Each member is called to service and held to account to a section of the populace distributed throughout the country, so there must be geographically and politically broad-based support, not merely the forcible proclamations of a minority cabal holding the rest hostage. There's no debate over who knew what or who pushed which agenda one way or the other because instead of closed Cabinet meetings and private telephone conversations, there are public, recorded, sessions of Congress detailing exactly what happened. The trend over the last 60 years to grant the President the authority to wage war was mistake #1 and needs to be rectified.
In general, the Executive Branch does things effectively and efficiently with a top-down command structure (I say Jump, you say How High), but the Founding Fathers realized its pitfalls and potential for abuse and allocated the real power to the Congress, even though by design it is a slow, deliberative, lumbering body. But because the Executives can "execute" things much faster, we've tended to yield more power (particularly in emergencies and in time of war) to that side in the name of "getting things done," even though it will certainly come back to bite us in the behind because those new Executive powers are so easily abused. And the judicial branch, despite being the progeny of the other two branches (its members are nominated and approved by them), exists to keep the executives and legislators in check, to remain above the partisan fray and to consider individual issues and their relation to the law and above all, the Constitution.
-James
What lie would that be?
2. The totally bogus, completely bankrupt, attempt to link Saddam to Al Qaeda. Absolute balderdash.
Yet #1 and #2 were the reasons cited by the Administration and its allies to go to war. #1 was the reaon most used in justifying the action before the UN and its allies, and #2 was proffered most in garnering support among the American public. The only valid reason to dethrone Saddam was as a humanitarian measure, because of his past crimes against humanity and continued defiance of international law to the detriment of his subjects. The mass graves, the torture rooms, the prisons, Uday, and so on. Yet I suspect few Americans would have supported a war that would ultimately kill 1000 Americans for this cause alone. And there are plenty more dictators still going strong - Kim Jong-I and Robert Mugabe come to mind. Hell, half the countries in Africa, and quite a few in Asia, are going through some sort of internal conflict led by some corrupt thug.
You'd think NJT is usign the worst equipment and the poorest working conditions to try this hard to stop you from snapping a picture. This is equavilant to a meat packing plant or dirty kitchen mentality.
Your pal,
Rant
And I also say, while you stand there whining about it, you could be taking photos. So if you disagree with me and think that the ban will go through, get out there and take all your photos now before it's too late. But I really think this is all a lot to do about nothing.
-James
I wish you would make an honest effort to try and view this issue from the other side of the platform.
What effort do you want me to make? Write letters to MTA against the ban? Fight with police officers? What efforts are gonna make you happy?
-James
I must have missed your post in that thread. But if you are talking about me, then no, you are wrong. I want to walk through PENN to experience and take photos of the madness that they will be making us go through in the name of "security." Hopefully the police will figure out by then that it is more important to do other things than to bother me about taking photos, but if they do bother me, then I guess everyone else's safety will be reduced during that time. I in no way want to distract the police. I just want to capture the madness and then move on.
That's precisly the point. You want to tempt them into bothering you so that other's saftey will be in danger and you couldn't care less. You care more about taking fuckin photos than you do about whether people are safe or not. You know, I hate to wish this on people, but I hope someday you need help when no one is around and see how well you manage. But who cares? There are other more important things in your opinion anyway.
-James
I support protests against the ban, but not like this.
It makes perfect sense, maybe you don't get it, cuz they don't want you to.
-James
Shut up and listen. I never said anything about this being a protest against the photo ban. Furthermore, the proposed photo ban has NOTHING to do with Penn Station, so I don't know what is going on in your messed up head.
I've already explained precisely why I am going to Penn Station during the RNC. Everyone else understands my reasons except for you. Why don't you take that as a clue that maybe you are JUST PLAIN WRONG and you should go back and re-read my posts and revisit your assumptions until you find where your severe mental blockage is located.
I admit when I am wrong, as you saw in the post about the NJT photo policy. I wonder if you'll be able to do the same?
-James
That is ABSOLUTELY NOT true.
This is what I am talking about when i mentioned wild accusations...which I believe you tried to correct ME on...and that is NOT going to work. I care about getting my photos where I please, when I please, and how I please...but that DOES NOT mean that I (or any of us, for that matter) would rather concern myself (ourselves) with getting those wonderful photographs you see than with the safety of all individuals riding public transit...we are 100% concerned for the safety of all riders, esp. since we wouldn't want our safety to be at risk if it were us, our friends, our parents and relatives or our significant others (for those of us who have)...
He is NOT tempting to bother cops just for the sake of hindering everyone else's safety, it just that he is trying to prove a point, that the cops COULD bother railfan enthusiasts for taking photos when they aren't supposed to, HOWEVER, by doing so would cause the cops to divert their attention to what they SHOULD be most concerned about, which is the safety of all that pass through PENN or travel on its trains...
THAT is his purpose...he may be silly and mischievous at times, like on this board, HOWEVER he has too good of a person NOT to partake in what you think he is trying to do here...he's making a statement, an argument, a purpose to believe that their argument that shutterbugs aren't a threat to security nor are we "out to get anybody" at all, including cops and brass.
Please, just do us a favor and don't feed any more fire to the flame, and let us allocate our resources to fighting this thing...because instead of arguing with you on this, I could be a) photographing something; b) making complaints to the right people, and c) taking a nap or other things around the house...
SAS
it just that he is trying to prove a point, that the cops COULD bother railfan enthusiasts for taking photos when they aren't supposed to,
Just to be clear, no, I am not trying to prove ANY point about photography. I am try to experience and photograph the madness at Penn Station as a result of there only being two entrances open while the RNC is in session. If I am stopped during this time, it will most likely be because of perceived "RNC related security matters," and not because of the normal harassment of railfan photographers.
Bad time!
„let us allocate our resources to fighting this thing...because instead of arguing with you on this, I could be a) photographing something; b) making complaints to the right people, and c) taking a nap or other things around the house..."
Public forum, you don't want me to weigh in, than you shouldn't post it. Chat in a private chat without me in that case. And no one asked you to argu with me. You could have just accepted it and done a, b, or c.
-James
Public forum, you don't want me to weigh in, than you shouldn't post it. Chat in a private chat without me in that case. And no one asked you to argu with me. You could have just accepted it and done a, b, or c.<<<
First off, I would like you to weigh in on the situation, HOWEVER if it is going to lead to assumptions and accusations that won't hold water or rantings that will only add fuel to the fire, then it is NOT worth posting and wasting the board's time. Second of all, whether I decide to chat privately without you or whether you should decide to exclude yourself from such chats is not the way to settle an argument, at least I don't think so...that would be avoiding the issue and would also be childish. Lastly, I don't really argue with people unless they give me reason to say something or they post a certain issue of which I can formulate an opinion.
And btw, I did a, b, and c over the past week. That's progress...what have you done?
SAS
I meant you talk about this with the other guys in a private chat where I will not be so you won't hear my opinion. Its not childish. If you don't like what I say, you don't have to read my posts.
:"And btw, I did a, b, and c over the past week. That's progress...what have you done?"
Why so interested? None of it has any effect on you.
-James
At the moment, I'll settle for less and less of your mean-spiritedness, name-calling, and sarcasm toward those of us who are trying to make a difference.
A letter or two to MTA, NJT, and MBTA on behalf of our cause wouldn't hurt either.
BTW, the ACLU protects conservatives, too.
I have never called anyone a name with a mean spirit because of this. I have only pointed out the stupidity on some of the parts of some people to make a difference. Some of it is just plain not worht it, and it's not needed to do that in order to stop the ban (like distracting poice at PENN during the RNC by taking photos)
I'd settle for that if some of you settled for less cop bashing.
„the ACLU protects conservatives, too."
And criminals instead of the victims.
-James
Hmm, let's see now...
"idiots"
"morons"
And that's just among the nicer things you've called us.
-James
It is your attitude and comments that are offensive to people.
We're human beings. And I believe you tend to forget that at times.
Your response to this post proves my point.
And you tell me to "shut up"? Sir, in spite of being as turned off and offended by your comments and mean-spiritedness as anyone here, I have probably shown you far more kindness and courtesy than many of the other posters here, far more than you deserve. My direct responses to your postings bear out that fact.
You just think about that.
-James
I'll give you credit for this...you have a true talent for twisting one's words around.
You're not a very nice person.
-James
I don't know how old you are, but telling an older more mature person (who has probably seen more in his/her life in 40+ years than you will ever see in your short life) to zip their lip in such a disgusting manner is unexcusable...back in the day, when kids disrespected their elders, they either got a belt whipping or when they had a dirty mouth, they would have their mouths washed out with soap. Too bad we can't have those days back, but if we did, you'd be in for some good pain (good meaning bad)...
You watch it, young man, or else you're gonna hear it...from me, from Bingham C50, from anyone on this board.
Stay on the board, but watch what you say....
(Even though I think this message is not going to register with you, i duno if you're hard-headed or ignorant or just don't give a shit at all, as long as you get your kicks...)
SAS
Calling me a liar? I don't care if you don't believe me. Be that way.
"Especially when the person you are telling to shut up is more mature and of an older age than yourself."
You have no clue how old I am, so don't say that. I might just be over 39 or I might be over 60. You can't prove anything. He could be younger than me for all I know, i can't tell.
Whatever happened to "respecting your elders" and shit like that?"
Exactly, you say yourself it's shit, so why do it?
„but you have possibly crossed a thin line here by telling someone to shut up..."
What thin line, shut up means to stop the shit that he was spreading, I was nice to him. Frankly, I should have told him to f*ck himself, but I was trying to be nice, considering what he said to me.
„back in the day, when kids disrespected their elders, they either got a belt whipping or when they had a dirty mouth, they would have their mouths washed out with soap."
Yeah I know, they did it to me and they'd be sorry asses. Soap inside of the mouth is harmful to your health. I'd just do what everyone else does and sue. If you can sue for spilling hot coffee, you can sue for child abuse which that is.
"You watch it, young man, or else you're gonna get it...from me, from Bingham C50, from anyone on this board."
What you gonna do to me? You don't know where I live or anything, so you can't do a thing to me.
„i duno if you're hard-headed or ignorant or just don't give a shit at all..."
Neither, I just want you and your friend to stop bothering me and let me post where and what I want. Want me to tell you to shut up too? So go scram and bother someone else.
-James
Did I SAY I was calling you a liar? What I meant was that I was hoping there were really any death threats to you or your family...GEEZ....
>>>Whatever happened to "respecting your elders" and shit like that?"
Exactly, you say yourself it's shit, so why do it?<<<
That is NOT what I am saying, that is ABSOLUTELY NOT what I am saying...I respect my elders because they have knowledge and wisdom that younger folks might actually be able to USE, for once...forget what I said after that...it's NOT that serious, bro...
>>>„back in the day, when kids disrespected their elders, they either got a belt whipping or when they had a dirty mouth, they would have their mouths washed out with soap."
Yeah I know, they did it to me and they'd be sorry asses. Soap inside of the mouth is harmful to your health. I'd just do what everyone else does and sue. If you can sue for spilling hot coffee, you can sue for child abuse which that is. <<<
You actually took that LITERALLY? Damn, you must be really young or just never understod the concept...if you said bad words, your mouth is considered filthy. When your body is filthy, you clean it with soap and water. Hence, the expression "washing your mouth out with soap"....it wasn't done to anyone LITERALLY, unless the offender didn't learn his lesson after a certain amount of threats...geez, if you don't understand that, then you really must not be from the old school...hence I can tell your age. And it's NOT abuse if the child is doing something wrong and won't learn his/her lesson by being yelled at or disciplined otherwise.
>>>"You watch it, young man, or else you're gonna get it...from me, from Bingham C50, from anyone on this board."
What you gonna do to me? You don't know where I live or anything, so you can't do a thing to me.<<<
Them's fightin' words, bro...and I don't condone it unless I feel I have reason to do so...and don't worry about what we're gonna do to you...just watch it...you don't scare us, you know...
>>>„i duno if you're hard-headed or ignorant or just don't give a shit at all..."
Neither, I just want you and your friend to stop bothering me and let me post where and what I want. Want me to tell you to shut up too? So go scram and bother someone else.<<<
You are NOT gonna tell ME to shut up, that'd be the wrong thing to do, and a very immature thing to do. Now, the reason I am saying these words is because I believe I have reason to say something; I have reason to believe what I have said in past posts about your behavior, your postings, your attitude, etc...the list goes on...now to tell me to scram and bother someone else, when there is clearly no one else that is bothering me as of this day, is not going to make this situation go away...We have opinions here, and we may agree or disagree, but for you to disagree with us on certain issues and then argue with us with such language you use (not necessarily foul, don't misread me) is unacceptable, uncondonable, and immature on your part...
Speaking of misreading me, I've been thinking about all the posts you made here on Subtalk in the last few days, mostly responses to my posts...and it seems that you think you're so good at taking people's words and turning them around on them, particularly Bingham C50 and I...I dunno about Bingham, but that kind of word "tampering," for lack of a better word, is NOT gonna cut it with me...it just doesn't work with me...My words are my words, and I say what I mean and mean what I say...anyone, including yourself, who tries to take my words and turn them on me will 1) mis-interpret what I am saying; 2) not accomplish anything except wasting time and space on this argument; and 3) annoy the hell out of me by pulling me back into the argument to waste my energy and throw a few choice words out...
You might think that you can keep up your charade for a little longer, but it ain't happening...don't even try to take my words and reply on them and counter-attack again, it's only gonna waste your time and mine. I'm letting you know now. END OF DISCUSSION.
SAS
I wasn't trying to.
„and it seems that you think you're so good at taking people's words and turning them around on them...
Thank you, but I have never twisted words around. I clearly found meanings in those words to respond apon. Maybe you meant them in another way, but sounds to me like you just want to denie what you say and blame me for changing it around in defence? Thats not very nice.
"You are NOT gonna tell ME to shut up..."
What if I do? Listen, Bingham or w/e annoyed me and would not stop annoying me and acted like he was some god coming down and helping me out. I think he wanted to annoy me. I'm willing to take back my telling him to shut up if he acctually does it.
And I've never responded to any posts im an unacceptable, uncondonable, or immature way, with exception of very few. I told you, killfile me and erase me from the picture. Cause I'm sick of looking at you from it. I unfortuatly get annoyed and don't always mean thing I say. So just forget it and move on. I don't want any more lectures, thank you.
Remember, if you throw enough shit at the wall, some will always stick.
-James
Why would I want to deny anything I said? That would only hurt my argument, not help it, I'm not stupid enough to do that...and besides, you can clearly find meanings to anything that I have said, but what you interpret it as may not be the meaning that I had in mind when I wrote what I wrote...have you thought of THAT?
>>>I unfortuatly get annoyed and don't always mean thing I say.<<<
Yeah, I can imagine that...
>>>What if I do? Listen, Bingham or w/e annoyed me and would not stop annoying me and acted like he was some god coming down and helping me out. I think he wanted to annoy me. I'm willing to take back my telling him to shut up if he acctually does it. <<<
See, THAT is the kind of behavior and attitude that we cannot put up with from you or anyone on this board...I believe he has a reason for starting up what you think he started up...and he is not only trying to justify it, but he is also trying to help you see the picture and try to see our side of the argument, which you seem to refuse to see, esp. in terms of how we are handling the situation in regards to law enforcement. That is all he intended to do, you have by far seemed to have blown it to unnecessary proportions and that is what is forcing me to lecture and lecture and lecture about this...(and I won't name names, you know who they are...)
>>> So just forget it and move on. I don't want any more lectures, thank you. <<<
See above. I will only stop giving lectures if you agree to lay off of the insults and all that other crap...after you calmd down a bit, I will calm down and lay this issue to rest. However, my battle to get my photography rights back, that will continute.
SAS
Now can you stop the lectures?
-James
""
Now can you stop the lectures? <<<
Ok, no more lecturing...
Here's one more thing: it may seem like bias to you, but only because he and I are friends who agree on something, and you and I are not friends and we disagree on the same subject...that is the ONLY reason you bring up that point...remember that...
Anyway, my work here is done, for now,...I will stop pestering you now...
SAS
Did I call you names? NO.
Did I verbally abuse you? NO.
Did I curse at you? NO.
Did I ever threaten you? NO.
Just as importantly, did I ever tell YOU to "shut up"?
NO!
I do not take kindly to false accusations, sir.
On the contrary - I feel that silence is what will allow it to happen. We need to be more vocal - We need More protests! I have no intention of "getting over it". This is the 100th Anniversary and preventing us from photographing it is UNACCEPTABLE!
If the photo ban is passed then I think that this site and others like it should share their pictures only with railfans who upload pictures in exchange. Those who actively or passively support the photo ban should not reap the benefits while taking none of the risk.
By the way - I drove past the Citicorp building today on the way to work on the west side. There was a line of people in front - heavily armed cops, etc... Some guy on a bicycle stopped and took several pictures right in front of SEVERAL OFFICERS... Go figure...
The terrorist already have what they need to know!!!
One of the thoughts I've had lately....about all this terrorist stuff & photo's & tourists etc!!!
Let's go with the tourists.....do they need to go home to Iowa, Nebraska or wherever..& talk about what a bunch of bullies the NYPD is? Nope!!!
Ain't no probs with NYPD checking folks out in a nice manner, in fact the out of towners may even like that & when they go home they even tell folks......Wow!!! New York's Great & those cops are AWESOME!!!!
There's a happy medium here somewhere!!!!!
-James
This is EXACTLY the reason why we are bitching about transit police units that are targeting people taking pictures of our bus and rail systems...if we don't DO ANYTHING, they win...by doing nothing, this gives them thr right to not only stop us from doing what we usually do, but also it will prevent other groups of people, such as tourists and citizens, from living close to their normal daily lives.
You say that "we can't just do nothing" but you are proposing to us railfans/photographers that are doing something to do the same thing...
This is what I mean when your posts don't always make sense...
Please, either try to see our argument from the other side of the platform or just stop arguing this topic and go about your business...
Thank you
SAS
Just wait one cotton pickin' minute there... I did not say I was angry about the police presence at Citicorp - Now who is putting words into other people's mouths?
I was commenting on the photo op taken by a tourist who was not hassled in an area clearly designated as a security risk, while at the same time railfans are being harassed system-wide... I really see a double standard...
-James
Spoken like a true North Korean. Whatever Dear Leader wants, Dear Leader gets.
-James
:-(
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-James
You're wrong. In fact, you are wrong a lot. But at least you said "correct me if I'm wrong," and I honestly respect you for doing that.
When was the last time Rush Limbaugh or Bill O'Reilly said that? (except as a rhetorical tool with no intention of making good on it)
But AFAIK he is right - NJT does in fact have laws *on the books* (which are the only kind that exist) banning photography. That's not to say that they're just or they're constitutional, they're just on the books.
I see what you are saying. While they may not even be "on the books," it is NJT's policy. However, since it seems that NJT's photo policy has no legs to stand on (based on what I've read), I do not consider it a rule that I must follow. As such, if and when I get a ticket or worse for disobeying their policy, I will fight it as hard as I can until the policy is abolished.
So that's why I said he was wrong. But technically, since there are some people out there, maybe Broadway Buffer included, who would be inclined to follow such an illegal policy and consider it valid, I should not have said he was wrong about the ban. I apologize.
While "public AGENCY" property may not be the same as "private property", it doesn't make it "public property" under the law. Same for the MTA - they DO have the right to control their "property" with only a handful of limitations beyond that of purely private property. And if a justification of "public safety" is offered, that trumps any other rights to ANY court. Bottom line, there's no "illegal policy" here any more than you refusing a TV crew access to your bedroom. If you INVITE them in, all well and good. But you (and a transit agency) DO have a superior right to say NO.
I'm hoping there's a happy outcome in both of these situations for all, but don't look to the law to bolster the argument, there is NO legal standing for photography on either property. Therefore, for this ability to be extended, folks are going to have to be civil and nice tot he agencies. A judge WILL back them up.
Here's the problem.
I believe that laws prohibiting marijuana are wrong, and certainly that the Rockefeller-era laws enforcing it are unjust. But if I get busted for smoking weed, I can't use that as a defense.
If the photography law doesn't have a leg to stand on, the place to properly challenge it is in a courtroom.
>>As such, if and when I get a ticket or worse for disobeying their policy, I will fight it as hard as I can until
the policy is abolished. <<
Bingo.
-James
I had the wierd notion that I would love to see, only if ridership is warranted.
Queens Bound
A: TO Far Rockaway All Times 8th Ave Express, Fulton Street Exp. Rush Hour Liberty Ave Exp
E: To Lefferts Blvd M-F 8th Ave Express, Fulton Street Exp., Liberty Ave Lcl (Nights/Weekends Fulton Street Local)
C: To Rockaway Park M-F 8th Ave Local, Fulton Street Lcl, Liberty Ave Lcl (Nights/Weekends From Euclid to Rockaway Park)
K: To World Trade Center All Times 8th Ave Local
Reverse the direction Mnahattan Bound. The E will still normal on the Hillside Ave Tracks. This might be overkill and we might not have enough cars but this would return the E back to the Fulton Street tracks.
Frank D.
W Broadway Local
Please stand clear the closing doors, next stop, Cortlandt Street.
A: 207 St-Far Rockaway/Lefferts Blvd (All Times)
C: 168-WTC (All Times except Nights)
E: Jamaica Center-Rockaway Park (All Times)
E will be local in Brooklyn.
C will be an "all-Manhattan local".
A: express in Brooklyn except nights.
WTC station will be closed 12 midnight to 6am.
W Broadway Local
Having the Second ave or the new Airtrain tunnel connect with the local tracks would help in a few ways...
It would give the SAS a Bklyn routing,connecting the Eastside of Downtown Manhattan with DWT BKLYN,
Make possible a connection to the WTC E service...and rerouting Broadway trains to Nassau st via a new tunnel connection at Broad st...
Terminate all C trains in Manhattan, most at 2 Av and some at Chambers St. A trains run local in Brooklyn and Queens.
Alternatively run C service to Lefferts Blvd with all A trains to the Rockaways. Late nights all A trains to Lefferts Blvd. Shuttle service to other stations.
For various reasons neither proposal is popular with some riders.
It is the choke point of the line...and kills the TPH in Manhattan/Bklyn and Queens...
If the Fulton street lines local tracks were some how given it own route into Manhattan,the problems would go away...
case in point,if a new tunnel were built between Jay st and Hoyt st,[like a flying juction to the F TRACKS AT JAY from the unused local tracks at Hoyt st] C service could be routed thru the Rudgers tunnel to Houston and West 4th st where it would resume it route to upper Manhattan..
A service could be incressed with shorter headways better service via the Fulton express to the Rockaways...while C trains can be sent to Lefferts....
Haven't lived in the "Lefferts Area for 2 years" I think the "C" would be a nicer idea then 2 "A" services. A lot of people don't understand that particularly during non rush hours, the "C" service actually runs better then the two "A" services. It would benefit "more" people, because the waiting time wouldn't be as long. Ironically, it is the passengers during rush hours who dictate how service is run. And it is these passengers who will most likely protest any changes that would remove their express service. Should you blame them? Especially haven't had express service for nearly a half of century?
W Broadway Local
W Bwy Lcl
Extending the C to Lefferts would require an increased number of cars, and it would probably mean an increase in service to stations which as of yet don't demand such (The Rock Park spur being the biggest example).
But some A trains could have Euclid Av or Howard Beach as their south terminal. This would ensure that Rockaway service isn't more than required and reduce the number of cars required.
I don't think there is a dispute Chris. Please carefully read the message again.
"Haven't lived in the "Lefferts Area for 2 years" I think the "C" would be a nicer idea then 2 "A" services. A lot of people don't understand that particularly during non rush hours, the "C" service actually runs better then the two "A" services. It would benefit "more" people, because the waiting time wouldn't be as long. Ironically, it is the passengers during rush hours who dictate how service is run. And it is these passengers who will most likely protest any changes that would remove their express service. Should you blame them? Especially haven't had express service for nearly a half of century?"
W Bwy
W Bwy Lcl
"Before posting.. think twice! Is this post on-topic? Polite?
Please help keep the Talks a pleasant place to visit."
Washington Post
Nah! - Only Doughnuts are cop food ;-)
avid
The rules are pretty prominently displayed. Whether people read them is probably a different matter.
I would have just finished the candy bar like the nice police officer said. Why would you even *think* of talking back to a police officer when the officer is clearly in the right and you are clearly in the wrong?
They need to STFU....
This thread will get uglier than it already has unless you guys chill.....
____
| ST |
| 10 |
|----|
Nope, I'm just too darned well to be attending EITHER convention. I wonder how severely the photography rules will be enforced for THOSE puppies. Heh.
In Baltimore, the teevee didn't, the Fishwrap (our local knock name for the Sun) didn't (or buried it so deep that the 1/8th column item got totally missed) and there was 1 post on a Baltimore rail/transit BBS and the thread died.
We're only 34 miles away.
The candy incident certainly got more attention down here.
E-mail me and I'll send you some of Peter's doings in Charm City, and it's not baseball.
-Broadway Buffer
"Moments after making a remark to the officer, Willett said, she was searched, handcuffed and arrested for chewing the last bite of her candy bar after she passed through the fare gates."
She had to be punished for making a remark to the kop.
It appears she might have been arrested for entering thru a fare gate.
Entering through a fare gate is the only legal was for a passenger to enter the station. She was arrested for saying something to the cop.
She was charged with entering through the fare gate before swallowing the last mouthful of the candy bar {eating in a station).
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Then you are obviously lying and have never ridden the Washington Metrorail.
I bought a $5 card on Sunday July 6th. My wife and I rode from Union Station to Greenbelt ($2.60)to spend a few days at a friend's house. We stayed until Thursday July 10th. Got a lift back to Union Station and took AMTRAK home from there.
At this point she was no longer guilty for eating in the subway, but the officer obviously felt the lady wasn't being respectful and wanted to punish her for asking her that question which of course was sarcastic and rhetorical. Since the only thing she could ticket her for was for eating she proceeded to do so. The lady knew what was coming and ignored the request for ID and kept walking. At this point she was arrested since she couldn't be ticketed without showing ID.
The lady obviously had no experience with police and should have known better. But her only real crime was that she was telling the officer what she thought and shouldn't have been arrested for that, especially since she did comply with the request to stop eating. The officer was obviously upset because the lady was acting like a smartass by shoving it in her mouth as if to say now I'm not eating anymore so you can't do me anything. The officer wanted to show that she wasn't going to be made a fool of and wanted to teach her a lesson by ticketing her and when that didn't work out she arrested her.
I think both parties are equally guilty. Instead of gwtting angry by the question, the officer should have delayed her for about five minutes explaining the rationale for the rule and how she was only doing her job while assuring her that there were ample officers out there catching the criminals, but quality of life also is important. If the lady continued to argue, then she should have been given a ticket and if she refused to show ID, she sould have been warned that she was going to be arrested if she wouldn't cooperate. I'm sure she would have chosen the ticket. The way it was handled, nothing was accomplished, only bad publicity for the police since many people only know part of the story.
Why don't you stop defending the lady and look at the situation. You can't deny the fact that eating is illegal on the Metro. While I agree that an arrest isn't warranted if you eat on the Metro, if you are rude the officer, I can see why you would be detained. It has nothing to do with having a Gestapo style police department. It simply has to do with police officers and law enforcement officials wanting respect and wanting appropriate criticisms at the appropriate times. That was not the time or place to criticize MTP.
That's what the newspaper account that I read said. I can only assume she gave that information to the reporter. That doesn't sound like something a police officer would make up because it wouldn't support their rationale for giving a citation.
I said if the lady had more experience with police she never would have made that comment. Perhaps I should have said if she had more sense she wouldn't have made that comment. It's not as if she was talking to her as a friend. You have to consider the situation.
Try this site:
http://www.bugmenot.com/
Da Hui
Da Hui
http://www.google.com/url?sa=U&start=1&q=http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5344646/&e=7764
They were chuckling about it on CNN earlier ... Crain's business report might also be a satisfactory source as well ...
http://chicagobusiness.com/cgi-bin/news.pl?id=13321 (it's down near the bottom of the story)
Damned umbrella-carrying terrorists in a rain storm. How DARE they threaten us with bumpershoots! :)
Also there isn't anything in there about it carrying over to the commuters nor regular riders so your rant is bogus.
http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artman/publish/printer_4921.shtml
Get some help there, you really need it.
If you wish to position me based on an interesting article whose truth and authenticity is at best questionable, yet STILL interesting, then we're dealing with an exceptionally closed mind and sadly, your boy is done. Given what I watched earlier, we'll find out soon enough if it's true or not. (grin)
http://www.google.com/search?q=boston+umbrellas+confiscated
Bumbershoot bummer II
The saga of the umbrella rule at Fleet continues. A few days back, the mag and bag stations were accumulating hundreds of umbrellas confiscated from the rain-soaked media. By yesterday, the rule had been lifted — though the umbrellas were not returned. Then today, word from the security folks that there is a partial rollback ... small, folding umbrellas will be allowed, but "pointy" umbrellas will not be allowed. We were not aware that "pointy" is a category in umbrella design, but the security guard insisted that is the guidance. --Mark Lukasiewicz
We had a mail order catalog (lie who doesn't these days) but this one was about Swords and other Mid-Evial armour and stuff, allegedly "stage stuff" but the blurb said that the *were* made of the finest tempered steal and could hold any kind of an edge...
Anyway, there were some built into both umbrellas and into a walking cane. I understand that carring a sword is against the law in NYC, but a Chicago police officer said there was no law against carring a sword there.
I don't suspect you'd get one on an aircraft these days, unless you had it in a locked case as checked baggage.
Elias
Having said that you can slit somebody's throat with a soda can, so pretty much anything can be made into an effective weapon.
But those who wear the diapers don't think of such things.
IIRC didn't some Russian spy kill an Eastern European defector using an umbrella to deliver a poison pellet?
even still, having an object as bulky as an umbrella on the convention floor is just too dangerous, it's way too packed and way too many people jumping around for any kind of blunt object or object with a point(as I suspect alot of them have). Too many accidents waiting to happen.
But you can't have any common sense, a move like that violates their "rights". Give me a break...
To be honest, I'm more interested in finding out about the missing panda. As to how someone got a 200 lb panda and its 600 lb concrete base off the sidewalk near DuPont Circle is quite a mystery.
Associated Press story.
The gestapo police in D.C., are alive and well. :-/
There are some cases where the answer is an emphatic Yes - when you're in an area requiring specific credentials to be allowed, or when you're driving, or if the officer has a warrant signed by a judge, for example.
There are other cases where specific laws exist requiring the presentation of ID upon request by a law enforcement officer - the MBTA recently added such a provision, for example. Whether they're constitutional remains to be seen.
There are cases where a law enforcement officer has probable cause to believe that a subject has committed a felony. These are known as "Terry stops" and you are required to present ID in such a case - this was enumerated in the recent Hiibel case in the Supreme Court.
Other than those cases, providing ID to a LEO is purely voluntary - you do it by waiving your Fourth Amendment right to be secure in your person and property and free from undue harassment, and not present ID, and do so at your own risk (as you do by talking after being advised that you have the right to remain silent).
Now, the $1,000,000 question is, How do you know whether your particular case falls into one of the above and you're required to present ID upon risk of arrest and jail time, or are you waiving your protections voluntarily? Chances are pretty good that the LEO won't admit to you under any circumstance that your presentation of ID is strictly voluntary, but if you have to assume (and can't ascertain otherwise) that presentation of ID is mandatory, then what good is the Fourth Amendment?
See this story about ID presentation and its legal implications.
Well then, so is arresting someone for a violation in lieu of giving a summons when someone refuses to supply I.D.
Reasonable people do give the police I.D. when asked and do not give sarcastic answers!!! By the way, before I retired from the NYPD I actually enjoyed dealing with c--ts like her. (Like the pregnant girl that refused to get up from sitting on the steps last year) It took away some of the boredom of the job.
By the way, for a similar story (not transit related though) on another forum check out this.
Actually it does. Anything that it's legal to say to any civilian is legal to say to a cop.
-James
This is true, but cops have very broad discretion over whom to arrest. All that is required is probable cause to believe you have committed a crime -- even a very minor crime, such as eating in the Washington subway. While most cops would not make an arrest under those circumstances, you are defenseless should they choose to do so. As Justice Kennedy once observed, it's not unconstitutional for a cop to be a jerk.
Considering the potential inconvenience, it's prudent to keep your trap shut.
Although he phrased it memorably, he was part of a 5 or 6-justice majority. I realize that some people would like them all thrown out, but you might as well get over it. They're gonna be there for a while.
And oh, by the way, his comment wasn't exactly new. It has never been unconstitutional for police officers to be jerks. That particular line of work attracts its share of jerks, just like all professions.
I call it the Lynndie England factor...
He makes the Kennedy name look bad... and yeah, Ted is one of them too!
She failed to obey a command from a police officer. Under certain circumstances not obeying a command from a police officer can get you dead.
John
I've had that idea for some time... unfortunately power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely, and more absolute power corrupts even more absolutely.
That's an unnecessary generalization. And I don't mean it to be "politically correct" (not the way I am) but that's jumping to conclusions. I know lots of white people, pink people, green people and purple people eaters that think the law is to be used to wipe their posterior. MANY of THOSE are our LAWGIVERS themselves. :(
I *know* you're better than all that, bro ... is that what you REALLY meant to say?
But a word of advice to everybody as long as you're tuned in to the usual Unca Selkirk's floor show (sure hope nobody ever came here expecting me to be serious about ANYTHING) ... I *worked* in the media, PRINT, RADIO and TELEVISION ... scary thought, kids. I used to be a local TV ANCHORMAN, doing the PRIMES with MY nug on TV with the news every night. I *know* the kind of slackers we have today out there. Here's the ritual. "PC" (Press Conference) at 10AM, room 227. Biggest part of the gig is FINDING the mufuh ... OK, I'm there.
OOOOOOooooooo! DONUTS! Customary URN ... I'm all set, I'm in the back of the room with everybody else while all the radio people are whipping their cassette recorders and mics on the table and knocking the OTHER guy's stuff OFF the table because EVERYBODY wants lip-blowby with a small angle for those valuable "actualities" ... SOME of us drag some poor sap-arsed PHOTOG along with a camcorder because "we might need this for filler tonight." (been there, done that, intercourse AFTRA and RTNDA) ... so here's the slackers, doing the old "Candy Crowley," stuffing their face with Krispy Kremes and "whoa! PRESS RELEASE!" Now they step outside for a butt break or another shot in the corner bar, they read the press release, make notes and saunter on back to the PC a half hour later as the "stem-winder presentation" finally draws to a close.
Meanwhile, your "intern" actually SAT through all that dreck, wrote their OWN notes (or you already know this group because this is your UMPTEENTH photo-op with these clowns and you've heard it all before, yawn) and you go to ask *YOUR* (ahem, ahem) "probing question." Now you have YOUR voice in the actuality, so you MUST have been there the whole time, AND a response which is essentially, "What da MOO have YOU been smoking with a question like that? Are you HIGH?" whereupon you let the room empty out, then you and your photog get a REACTION SHOT with YOU sitting there in a tightly cropped chair shot in an EMPTY room so you can show the News Director that you really WERE there. :)
Like I said, been there, done that, seen that ... "Hokey smoke, Bullwinkle! OUR fourth and fifth estate up there on the auction block because of lazy-arsed slackers who wouldn't know an issue if it smaked them across the head like Homey's sock'o'quarters." :(
As the character "Howard Beale" PROPHETICALLY said many many years ago in the classic Paddy Chaievesky film "Network" ...
So, you listen to me! Listen to me! Television is not the truth.
Television is a god-damned amusement park. Television is a circus, a
carnival, a traveling troupe of acrobats, story tellers, dancers, singers,
jugglers, sideshow freaks, lion tamers and football players. We're in
the boredom-killing business. So if you want the truth, go to your
God, go to your gurus, go to yourselves because that's the only place
you're ever gonna find any real truth. But man, you're never gonna get
any truth from us. We'll tell you anything you want to hear. We like like
hell! We'll tell you that Kojack always gets the killer, and nobody ever
gets cancer in Archie Bunker's house. And no matter how much
trouble the hero is in, don't worry. Just look at your watch - at the end
of the hour, he's gonna win. We'll tell you any s--t you want to hear.
We deal in illusions, man. None of it is true! But you people sit there
day after day, night after night, all ages, colors, creeds - we're all you
know. You're beginning to believe the illusions we're spinning here.
You're beginning to think that the tube is reality and that your own lives
are unreal. You do whatever the tube tells you. You dress like the
tube, you eat like the tube, you raise your children like the tube. You
even think like the tube.
This is mass madness. You maniacs. In God's name, you people are
the real thing. We are the illusion. So turn off your television sets. Turn
them off now. Turn them off right now. Turn them off and leave them
off. Turn them off right in the middle of this sentence I am speaking to
you now. Turn them off!
Now WHY is Selkirk off on another "drop the net, oh mighty wrong wingers" rant? Heh (I'm so glad no one asked) ... WHAT you hear on the "news" or read in the papers was probably written by someone who actually USES that Internet Explorer spellchecker ... morons from outer space. The MEDIA is no longer a valid source of truth. We may never REALLY know what happened there, as there just aren't people any more who actually know how to find out the TRUTH. That's why we have Shrub and his ilk. :(
The average American has a 40 year old body and a 5 year old mind. If he watches television for an entire year he will have a 41 year old body and a 4 year old mind.
BTW, in 1976 an official of ABC testified before a Congessional subcommittee that American television is aimed at an eighth grade educational level. That was 28 years ago and it hasn't gotten any better.
Obligitory rail content: in 1976 the Q's were runing on Myrtle.
The Myrt closed in 1969. However, the Q cars were STILL rotting away in the 36 St yard in 1976. :)
I know Myrt closed in 1969. I paid my respects the week before.
The two years at GTMO must of clouded my brain.
Mea Culpa.
Looking forward to some day getting down to visit. Maybe after regime change. (grin)
I'd rather doubt that race had anything to do with the Metro incident. As noted elsewhere, the vast majority of eating-and-drinking violations result in warnings or, at most, tickets. Washington's demographics being what they are, it's a certainty that a significant percentage of those let-off-the-hook violators were non-white.
This isn't to say that the present incident isn't an outrage, it most certainly is. But it's not a racial outrage.
Cooler heads will prevail. I hope.
Hey Gen Patton, the "command" in this case was 'no eating in the subway' and this adult woman commuter apparently thought (as I would have) that popping the remaining piece of candy in her mouth was complying with the officer's "command". If the cop wanted her to swallow before entering the fare control zone or spit it out she should have said so.
What gets me is, if this cop had completely lost it (instead of just partially) and shot this woman there'd be a whole bunch of "transit fans" on this board defending it. In fact I bet I could name about five right off the bat.
C'mon guys, don't be bashful! How many people out there think that this cop shoulda just gunned this woman down and been done with it?
Yeah, but c'mon admit it -you woulda liked it, right?
By the way, I'm going on the Metro soon and won't eat or drink a single thing, even though I'm going to be biking right before getting on the train. I also will not be arrested.
Do I? I don't know, that's why I asked you. By the way, she wasn't eating "on the Metro." This commuter never made it onto a train. She was stopped just inside the fare gate. For chewing.
So I can see myself working late, grabbing a candy bar on the way to the train - they sell 'em right on the platforms here in New York - and eating it as I enter the station. I can see a cop admonishing me, if I happened to be in Washington, that is, that there's no eating. So, like this lady did, I can see myself popping the last bite in my mouth - cause I'm still not in the fare control area - and saying okay. I can see myself becoming annoyed if I realized the cop had done a 180 and was following me. Like what? I've got another candy bar secreted on my person? I also would probably have stopped and said something to the the cop. Something like, "What's the problem, Officer?" And I guess I'd have been thrown up against the wall, frisked and handcuffed too. And that stinks. Because I'm an adult, a responsible one, the kind that respects (or at least tries to respect) the police, cooperate with them, support them as a member of the community. I'm also a working person with a responsible job. I expect to be treated - as I'm sure this woman did - with some respect and consideration. Hey If I'm wrong or out of line, tell me, just don't put your freaking hands on me and throw me up against a concrete wall. To me, that's breaking the social contract. When this whole thing is about having something in my mouth? What am I a five-year old? Is this a subway or a kindergarten?
I think any responsible adult would understand this woman's annoyance. You don't treat a commuter who's worked all day and is scarfing down a candy bar on the way home like a criminal. Period. The article reported the gist of her remark to the cop and it was no big deal. I'm sure the woman was as astonshied by the female officer's reaction as I was when I read the Post story. And anybody who can't understand that is, in my view, either a) too immature, b) is just being provocative or c) has some self-esteem issues.
Hey Broadway, how about looking for your sense of humor? Seems to me you've lost it.
Oh, that's all it was? The woman says she was literally sexually molested by this cop in the guise of "searching" her breasts. (For hidden candy bars, I guess.) Thrown up against a wall. Handcuffed. Held in a jail cell for three hours. Just an overreaction, right? After all, the cop told her no eating. She shoulda spit that candy out, right?
Let me ask you all this. What if this had happened in a K-Mart or a Macy's? You're not allowed to eat there either, are you? And a security guard at the entrance admonished the 45-year woman, the government scientist, "No eating." And the woman said okay or alright, just like she said to the cop in the subway. And then the security agent began following her around the store. And when she asked, "Don't you have any shoplifters to catch?" the agent immediately detained her. Physically stopped her and forced her to go to whereever it is store cops take people. Think the store wouldn't apologize afterwards? Probably fire the agent, or at least insist they ackowledge that they acted inappropriately. And get some additional training.
Also, the officer is entitled to make sure her request was complied with.
Look, I understand why you defend the police officer, you're a WMATA supporter. But this is taking it too far. In order to make an arrest without warrant, the officer has to believe that the woman was going to be of danger to either herself, the officer, or somebody else. She put the candy bar in her mouth. Chewing is not a violation of the law. The officer is just one of those stuck-up types that will probably get themselves killed one day. I've encountered officers like this before, and they're bad for society.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
Are you kidding? Once the decision is made to arrest the girl a frisk MUST be made. As a former police supervisor, while I was one of the rare easy going bosses that rarely disciplined any of my subordinates if any contraband was found on any prisoner (especially a weapon) there would have been hell to pay by the arresting officer.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
-WhyMATA wears Depends
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
I'm sorry but COPS SHOULD ALSO RESPECT PEOPLE - I am not in the military - I resent police (or anyone else for that matter) when they bark orders at me - I really believe that cops need to LEARN and USE the words PLEASE and THANK YOU!
I generally do obey but I have been known to b*tch loudly to anyone who will listen or curse under my breath every time an order is barked at me by ANYONE other than my boss at work (salary compensates for that)...
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
The only recent one that I am aware of permits states to require people to (verbally) identify themselves on request from a police officer -- not to show a physical ID card. Not everybody has an ID card and, with limited exceptions (like driving, which should not be taken for granted anywhere, and especially not on a transit system), those who do have ID cards are not required to travel with them.
Got one for subway/elevated?
Today, we have "progress" ... as Mister Ed says on 143's, "WATCH the CLOOOOOOOOSING DOORS, WILBUR!" Progress. Heh. I *must* be getting old - I remember when "Progress meant improvement" ... no more live announcements since, because of the chitty acoustics, the cab microphone will SQUEAL long before the volume's up high enough to be heard ... nope - just put in a tape recording recorded in 1995 into a chip. And while the "monkey suit" in the middle might not EVER be told by "control" where the train's going, I'd bet that if they DID know what the next stop was REALLY going to be, they could tell the geese.
But hey ... we have "Microsoft Train" ... move any handle to recharge compressor. Superceded of course, by the BLUE FLAG OF DEATH. :)
I can't find the post, but just yesterday I posted a comment about how to NOT get kicked, beaten and hosed by understanding the mentality of police officers ... dunno where it is, but wish some folks would go back and read it. You have BAD cops, BAD T/O's and really really BAD foamers in the world. Seems Americans have a constitutional RIGHT to be their own personal sphincter at times, and that's what makes cops the craziest. Do you HAVE to say, "yes missuh?" ... *NO* ... but if more people truly understood what gets a cop's heartbeat pumping, then more people would understand how to *NOT* do that in the first place and not be likely to get maced no matter WHAT their complexion or hair color might be. But most people come on with an attitude of, "you're a civil servant, go get me a coke with ice." Nah-ah.
Just for my own mileage counter though, we had a black woman and a female officer. What I don't know is whether the DC cop was black or not. I'm betting she will be. Reason why I'm saying this is to bolster the point that I made in my previous message is that STATISTICALLY where information is gathered - "white people are usually NOT the target of 'black criminals, BLACKS are" ... and by the same "token hiring," I've come to see the numbers that suggest that whatever the race or background, when a "perp" and a "cop" of identical race have an encounter, it tends to be FAR more ... (for lack of a better word) "escalated" if BOTH participants are of the *SAME* race ... always found that statistic "interesting" ... but in the end, I'm just curious as to whether that data's available since there does seem to be a number of parallels in my observation and I'm keen to prove or disprove my theory.
But BOTTOM LINE folks - if you understand where a cop's coming from and cut them a break, you'll find a MUCH happier outcome unless you're dealing with a SERIOUS malfunction that shouldn't be on the force in the same place. Get OVER yourselves ... cops *ARE* the military ... and if you REALLY screw with them or make them paranoid, they *WILL* "take YOU out." And not to a dance party. :(
While I'm not so sure about the Metro police specifically, I know that the DC police have a high minority percentage, as you'd expect given the city's demographics. I still don't really believe there was any racial element to this case, however.
but the ONE thing I *do* know from my journalism background, as well as that as a "civil servant" required to produce FACT or at least "viable conjecture" the REALITY that those affected by "black criminals" throughout recorded data were in fact THEMSELVES black ... and WHITE "victims" were also overwhelmingly "victimized" by WHITES. So just on a "I need filler material" when I was a journalist (Hey, DRY newsdays HAPPEN, but you HAD to produce a byline or a show regardless) basis, decided to go to a few datacrunching houses back then (and have repeated the data recently and it's the SAME PERCENTAGES!) and found it INTERESTING (nothing more) that when you have a "perp" who is the *SAME* race/national origin/whatever "tagging value" the relationship BETWEN the cop and (forgive me here, but this is my point) "ONE OF THEIR OWN" ... it escalated FAR more out of control than when the participants were DIFFERENT races, and I suspect the difference wasn't the lack of either/or being COMPLETE ASSHATS, that when as a cop, you deal with a race other than your OWN, you tend to make "allowances" that vanish when it's "one of your own."
THAT is what I find interesting and am wondering just how real it is ... and therefore, that's WHY I'm interested in whether or not the "DC COP" was a black woman. I don't want to believe in stereotypes, thus my interest in the numerical BASIS for this one - and whether it can be proved or disproved ... sory folks, I'm into my own weird sicko stuff. I don't really CARE all that much about politics - I live out where politicos NEVER tread. But I *do* have a problem with manure and that whole "fresh country scent" stuff (just declared what "{fresh country scent" *really* is) ... but it is easily possible to spread on TOO much manure, and that's what gets me hopping on a number of issues. Mostly that warm, steaming sniff of "politics as usual." :(
But PERSONALLY, I'm REALLY curious about this episode. Given my OWN knowledge of cops as FRIENDS, this whole thing just don't smell right. And *THAT* is what will get a cop more curious than any OTHER odor ... this does NOT smell right. :(
You know this thread is a real litmus test for a lot of you. You don't "dis" a cop and not expect to be arrested? Arrested for what? Hurting the cop's feelings? A cop can tell you to watch your mouth or shut the f**k up, but arrest you? On what charge?
Whatever her race was is irreviant. It's exactly what she said to the cop that escalated the charge. The Post didn't go into specifics. They also didn't indentify the officer as to color. Thus my comment about the lawsuit that's sure to come. She was interviewed by one of the Washington TV stations, who released it to the Baltimore stations. The lady did not mention what she said, but from her post arrest comments, she was livid.
Next stop, A courtroom. All the details will come out there.
NO EATING ON TRAINS AND IN STATIONS....
YOU CANNOT CURSE AT A POLICE OFFICER FOR ENFORCING THE LAW!!!!
It's a no brainer..really...
-Broadway Buffer
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
I also don't eat, drink, smoke, play music without headphones, bring flammable materials, or do anything else that might prompt my being arrested on the Metro, therefore, my interactions with Metro Police are relatively limited.
It takes Knowledge,Wisdom and Overstanding to OVERCOME SOMEONE ELSES VIEW OF US!
Do not give into the foolishness ....
Live...just live.
Salaam has beef,and thats all good...for him....
Before this turns into something we don't want,let us be bigger than the craziness and let it go....
No RACIAL CRAP ON SUBTALK....
Seems to me like Metro Transit Police is doing its job just fine.
And sorry, no, I don't need to smell your food on the train either. Call it an affront to my expectation of a non-intrusive experience on the transit vehicle. Keep it in the bag. Better yet, eat before you ride. There's something "anti-cultural" in wanting people to go along with that? Hell, why don't we just let loose some snuffling pigs on every train, to slobber up all the food scraps and garbage. Hell, we might as well just lay some straw down on the car floors, along with a few spittoons.
again if she was given a ticket similar to a traffic ticket
or a parking summonst to court
then even i would say " go to court fignt it and win "
but "WMATAGMOAGH" is typical of many who IGNORE THE REALITY ........
.......& many times nightmare of " entering a DC subway station -
- while being BLACK "
at best only a summons to court to fight it out in a court of LAW
should have been at the highest level of so called transit cop action
"WMATAGMOAGH" bigoty is not needed in this threads !
again if this had happened to "U" or your wife daughter and even
worse YOUR MOTHER, would "WMATAGMOAGH" so relevant ?
She should win the case and SUE WASHINGTON D.C for every $$$ she can
get !
I she had commited a real crime robbed someone beat some one up
harassed and threatned someone, i could see a ROUGH ARREST !~!
you never can tell what will happen to you, all you want to do as a
black man or black woman is pay your fare ride your train / bus
and be left alone !
in the good old USA !
Apparently, I ignore the "reality of entering a DC subway station while being black". While I don't really need Salaam to clarify what he meant because I doubt I'll agree or care, I read that as him essentially calling me a racist, because I support this woman's arrest and this woman happens to be black. Salaam was the first person to bring race into this thread, and he did so when he started telling the world how bigoted I supposedly am.
As for not being outright called a racist yet, if Salaam keeps going with this nonsense, then perhaps I will be before long. Meanwhile, I hope we don't have to listen to Salaam complain if he is arrested for dealing with law enforcement the way he says he would in this thread.
Now, are you now going to try to tell me that when a black person tried to jump the faregate on my fare and when I pushed him back through the gate so he would fail in his effort to get a free ride, I was in the wrong? What about the person breaking the law? Had he asked me for however much money he needed to get to his destination, I would have been more than happy to give it to him. I know this person personally, he was not a stranger, yet I wouldn't have even asked him to pay me back. Yet, he decided to attempt breaking the law, I do not tolerate such lowly behavior, and I responded in a way I would have responded to anyone. When this person questioned my actions, he told me that I was obligated to let him jump the faregate and not do anything because he was poor and black and I am rich and white and live in a large house. Now, am I a racist bigot or simply someone who wishes to uphold the law, has respect for law enforcement, and enjoys traveling on a clean and safe subway each day?
I have already stated I would have little sympathy for a family member or close friend who was arrested for eating or drinking on the system. Most of them know the rules well because they know me and we discuss this type of story. I can assure you NONE of my friends or family will bring up race if this ever comes up in our conversations.
Also, sueing the city of Washington, DC would do little good because Metro is operated by the Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority. I also imagine that the lawsuit would be very petty and could be easily settled out of court, or not even filed in the first place!
I strongly suggest you now resume your daily life and stop using race as an excuse for this woman's actions when it is totally irrelevant. You aren't solving any of the racial issues you claim exist by arguing on SubTalk about them.
Yet her violation of the no-eating rule was about as mild as you can get. All she did was enter the faregate with the candy bar alreay in her mouth. No doubt many people have messy food items out in the stations or trains, yet get off with warnings.
Yes, she violated the eating ban on the Metro. Yes, what she did was against the law. But officers are given something called discretion - in most cases, as the statistics posted here show, a violator is simply let off with a warning, or at worst is isued a trivial summons ($15, or whatever it is). It is not an arrestable offence, unless there are aggravating factors. Without the aggravating factors, eating on the Metro is simply not an arrestable offense and the courts would throw out the conviction ASAP and open the department to a wrongful arrest suit.
Having said that, it is very different as a minority to have a confrontation with a police officer than it is if you're white. There's more of an assumption of guilt leveled against the minority - if you're a cop and you don't "profile" people based on whatever information you have (race being one of few pieces of information available at face value, along with dress and demeanor), you're ignoring reality. And if you think that on average blacks and whites have the same sort of relationship with police, you're also ignoring reality. Surprisingly, this is particularly true between minorities and officers of the same race (I believe Selkirk pointed this out). So perhaps the officer, seeing the person was black, was more aggressive or harsh in her initial warning than she would have been if the subject were white, and this added assertiveness made the subject more likely to reply in kind with a smartass remark. And of course this rapidly devolved and culminated in the arrest.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
Of course, once a decision to arrest is made, then a standard frisk and search is not only legal but required in most localities, and an incidental search of the immediate area (the immediate surroundings or the room in which the suspect was arrested) can be conducted.
regardless of all the hype this is causing....what did this do to change the situation?
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
I see nothing wrong in the above except with the woman and the way she talked to the officer. Even if that or another officer questioned my photographing the system, I would have not told the officer to go deal with other crime. I would save it for the court room or appeals process.
Here's a partial quote from one of Martin Luther King's speeches....
"I had a dream that my four children will one day live in a nation where they'll not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."
Arthur Thomas
STFU!!!ALREADY!!
What about impersonating a transit worker by wearing an official MTA vest?
Good thing for you bad spelling, grammar, and punctuation isn't an arrestable offense.
There's a very convenient catch-all violation a police officer can impose on a perpetrator who's not overtly comitting an illegal act, but is merely getting on the police officer's nerves.
It's called DISORDERLY CONDUCT.
I don't recall anything about a strip search in the article.
Well, she could have been hiding a Baby Ruth in her, umm,...
First, the lady ate the candy bar. It was finished, none of it remained uneaten and as far as I'm concerned, partially chewed up does not constitute uneaten. This makes her compliant with the police officer's request.
The definition of compliant behavior, and I have a use of force booklet with me to refer to, doesn't include a paramater for politeness. Indeed, it specifically states that people may not be polite even if they are compliant. That means that no matter how rude the lady may have been, telling the cop to do something worthwhile has no bearing on the status (eaten) of the chocolate bar.
The cop should also get used to the fact of life that when you're in a uniform, be it a police uniform or a McDonald's uniform, verbal crap is going to be thrown your way from some members of the public.
The whole incident here is a pile of brown stuff - and not chocolate either.
-Robert King
And both civilians and the police are equally responsible for this.
Oftentimes, especially when dealing with people who aren't career criminals (as the lady in this case appears to be), giving a warning and trying to be a little understanding, giving the person a chance to walk away with their dignity, will get a lot farther than slinging insults or commands in a demeaning way. Simply informing someone that they have committed a violation that could potentially result in _______ punishment, is likely to solicit an "I'm sorry, Officer, it'll never happen again - I'm sorry to be a trouble to you - Have a great day and stay safe out there," than a "What the hell do you think you're doing asshole! If Good Cop fails, then Bad Cop can come out.
On the other hand, a lot of civilians see the uniform - a copper, a pig, a donut-eating sexist Neanderthal moron just looking to crack some black people's heads open, so the hell with it if I call him a racist, sexist, troglodyte pig? And then they wonder why they get slammed against the wall and cuffed. Yeah, maybe those characterizations are apt for a small minority of those on the force (as of the rest of society in general), but a little understanding goes a long way.
In the words of Rodney King, "Can't we all just get along?"
It *is* true that generally minorities are treated differently by Patrol Officers, PARTICULARLY when both the "perp" and the "officer" are of the SAME "minority group." (anyone wanna comment? I'm almost out of posts, but I'll burn one or two if appropriate) It IS a serious matter if an officer of the law acts without valid provocation and so long as it doesn't escalate beyond "excuse me, but I disagree" then the TRAINED officer should be able to handle the situation without unnecessary escalation. HOWEVER, the officer DOES haver the authority to detain if the "perp" fails to "follow the directions of a law enforcement officer" which are LAWFULLY given. The MAIN thing in such a situation is that BOTH parties have to DE-escalate the situation before it crosses that line.
Now as Robert said (and he IS in the "business") we do seem to have a shady area of interpretation here if what transpired is accurate. As much as the officer may not have appreciated the "perp" stuffing their face with the candy bar, they DID in fact "consume." But there's also an open interpretation of WHERE that "consumption" occurred - which might STILL have been "on the property." If so, then we DO have a violation, but a wise patrolperson could look at it as satisfaction of the requirement and probably an inadvertent offense against the regulations. The outcome suggests that more occurred.
Since the "perp" was taken into custody, (and probably issued a summons) the courts will have to hear this issue and maybe when that day happens, we'll find out what REALLY happened there, or the charges will be dismissed making it "nothing happened." All in due time.
A few suggestions for "general demeanor" from my own experiences working with law enforcement over the many years and having a number of "cops" as friends, ranging from "Knight in White Armour" types to bigger asshats than NYPD would EVER allow on the payroll ... when CHALLENGED, it is incumbent to be RESPECTFUL FIRST. If you disagree with the officer's interpretation, WISDOM dictates FIRST saying, "I apologize - I didn't realize there could be a problem, what can we do together to make this go away?" (needless to say if you're threatening anyone, THAT suggestion's out the window - just go as PASSIVE as you possibly can so that the officer knows that you don't intend a threat to their well being and de-escalation is already in effect) The worst POSSIBLE thing you can do is one of those nasty racist-connotation words that unfortunately are accurate - DON'T "get belligerent" or you're going down. Belicose people scare the crap out of cops - they've had close calls before, possibly been shot at and by being "belligerent," you've JUST made yourself their worst nightmare. Don't go there. For your OWN good. EVER.
Perfect example of how your own behavior can make a difference - "ye old flashing lights in the rearview" ... you have several options in this example, each with its very own likely outcome:
1) They're WATCHING you and can usually see you in your rearview. They delight in that four letter word you just uttered ("first you SAY it, then you do it", you know which one I mean) ... they chuckle. FIRST thing you should do is raise your right hand and do a short wave at them to let THEM know that you recognize they're there and plan to comply. Hell, they might even think you MIGHT be another cop for a second or two. THIS puts them a bit at ease. And putting them at ease is the MOST important thing to do when you've got a cop going "Owooo!" behind you. Don't pull over RIGHT away - the objective here is to flash your signal indicating that you INTEND to pull over - you were already speeding, so it's too late. GET to a nice SAFE place to pull over where there's plenty of room for you AND the cop to get OFF the road safely and leave him or her room to pull up behind you far enough off the road that neither of you are going to get hit by passing traffic. Next move is put BOTH hands on the wheel when you stop and sit there until they come to you. DO NOT reach for anything, do not do anything, just sit there and wait. When the cop comes to your window, roll it down and DO NOT stare at them while you reach for your papers - cops are trained to be NERVOUS if you stare at them and fumble for things (likely a gun) ... don't feel the need to stare at the cop, be apologetic and respectful. You MIGHT just get a warning.
2) Second choice is to slam on the brakes and stop right where you are. Suddenly, you're faced with officer Neckvein who is now stopped behind you, in traffic, and in danger themselves. Clearly you shouldn't be on the road. Expect to take a drunk test AND collect a ticket and possibly be searched. You're a moron, and you must be up to something - you're worth a bit more time. A few wisecracks or a bad attitude ought to ensure you'll be there for a couple of hours until NCIC fully clears you as "not being a person of interest with priors."
3) Last choice, floor it and hope to outrun the cop. Expect to buy new tires and a rear windshield. Assuming your car doesn't go flying off a cliff. Whatever's under your hood, rest assured, the cruiser's got BETTER under its hood. :)
Bottom line, it's all a matter of how YOU deal with the cop. During the course of their shift, their heart rate goes up and down a number of times during their normal patrol. If YOU decide to pump the adrenaline on them, expect an ugly, angry dewd or dewdette in your face. Most of them are EX-MARINES. You don't wanna mess with THAT. (grin)
The woman SHOULD have gotten off ... looks like the court's going to have to decide what REALLY happened out there. But there ARE ways to avoid that being YOU. Moo.
Oh, bosh. That's what they want you to think. In fact, cops have an uncanny knack for ending up in the "Lose" column whenever things get physical. It seems like you always hear about some schmuck violently resisting arrest, and four cops going off-duty with injuries. I sometimes think you have to *flunk* a physical fitness test to get through the police academy :)
You don't MESS with any of them up here. "Your honor, I HAD to fire a warning shot through his liver" is the usual misdemeanor plea around here. Black, white, indifferent, "heah come the judge and EVERYBODY gonna do some time today - just to prove it, I'm giving MYSELF six weeks." ... NYPD may have a CCRB, up here we have "gotcha."
Even if chewing a chocolate bar is a violation of the rules, surely it is not a violation for which arrest is warranted.
The only reason for prohibiting eating is that it creates litter. Presumably people with food inside their bodies are not the greatest risk for littering the subway.
Was not there, but...the worst enemies of effective, skilled law enforcement are a tiny minority of cops with no judgement or wisdom, those that seek to bust people and write tickets rather than maintain good order to the benefit of all.
I have seen this type of cop ( not busted by one, but have seen this type up close ) Bet you $100 that if you had a candid conversation with a great police professional like Bill Bratton or Ray Kelly they would tell you that this type of cop is a major impediment to law enforcement and the proper performance of any police department.
It doesn't matter if the woman was going home after a long day or not. Eating is not allowed on the Metrorail and this woman sounds like a regular commuter who was probably aware of the rules. All the more reason to not only give her a warning.
The cop was going up while the woman was going down. Why can't the cop go to the top of the escalator and go back down to make sure the woman complied?
That picture was taken on this past July 4, a day on which Metro Transit Police and other employees were highly visible. I did not encounter any problems on that day.
You need to change your mindset about all this and simply face reality. The lady broke the law and was arrested because she was breaking the law and not for any other reason. If you don't like the law, advocate for change, but I can assure you it won't happen.
This is THE problem. Myself and many other people do NOT consider COPS to be our BOSSES. One reason I chose NOT to enter the MILITARY (way back when I was young enough) was that I hated taking orders! COPS are Civil SERVANTS . The words PLEASE and THANK YOU go a very long way with me, while barking orders only boils my blood!
And being sarcastic to a cop? That's breaking the law? What specific law is that, Perry Mason?
If it does, the charge should be failure to cooperate with a police officer, not eating on the Metro. As far as that is concerned she is innocent since the food was already in her mouth. Digesting food is not a crime and doesn't qualify as eating. It would make no sense if it did, since the process continues for hours and no one can tell from looking at you if you are digesting food or not.
If the cop charged her with eating on the Metro, she is just a liar and I wouldn't trust her word in other more serious situations.
The officer witnessed her refusal. That's why she was locked up.
Gee, you are absolutely right. I assume you are a psychologist. How did you know I became a cop because of my self esteem? After all those years of bullies beating me up for my lunch money in school it was obvious, I had to become a cop to get back at everyone the same way. After all, I don't have the magical powers that Sissy Spacek had in Carrie.
Now, what is your reasons? It's obvious you have some issues with the police.
Oops, I forgot to supply the link!! Here it is!!!
Oops, I forgot to supply the link!! Here it is!!!
Chewing Over the Metro Mess
Tuesday, August 3, 2004; Page A16
Metro board member Charles Deegan says that the police officer who arrested a woman for eating a candy bar "needs . . . an attitude adjustment" ["Metro Questions Arrest of Snacker; Eating Ban Backed; Strict Policing Not," Metro, July 31]. He is the one who needs an attitude adjustment. He should apologize to the officer. The "chewing lady" also needs an attitude adjustment. Some people think that they can get by with anything.
I hate riding Metrorail and buses because they are so dirty from people eating and leaving their trash behind.
R.R. GOOSBY
Woodbridge
•
Lisa Farbstein, Metro spokeswoman, says, "Chewing is eating" ["Mouthful Gets Metro Passenger Handcuffs and Jail," front page, July 29]. What's next? Oral cavity searches on gum-chewing commuters?
My sympathy to Stephanie Willett, who had to endure being searched. Why, she might have been harboring a contraband Tootsie Roll in her bra!
JUNE SCHMITZ
College Park
•
To say that Metro has better things to worry about than a law-abiding citizen chewing the last of her candy bar in one of its stations is the understatement of the century. The other day, I sat on a train for an hour for a ride that should have taken 25 minutes. I had to listen to the filthy language of a group of teenagers who were throwing wads of paper at each other.
If Metro wants to keep its trains clean and pleasant, it should focus more on the behavior of its passengers and less on their eating habits.
AMY SUKOL
Silver Spring
•
As I finished reading the article on Stephanie Willett's arrest for eating in the Metro system, I arrived at West Falls Church Station to find candy wrappers and orange peels on the platform bench. As I descended the Rosslyn Station escalator, I watched a young couple finish their McDonald's breakfast and deposit their trash on the floor.
I have seen passengers sipping from their Starbucks containers on trains and have nearly tripped on soda cans, water bottles and beer bottles that roll from under seats and into the aisles.
While the people who commit these crimes may deem them trivial, those of us who deal with the results of their selfishness find them offensive. Maybe Metro could save a few bucks if it didn't have to pick up the trash people leave behind.
LIZ RAZEL
Reston
•
A 45-year-old, educated, professional woman still doesn't know how to follow the rules.
I would like to commend the Metro Transit Police officer for doing her job. What if we all decided to ignore the rules that we felt didn't apply to us? Some rules can be too strict, but the way to amend a regulation is not by making crude statements.
In response to Ms. Willet's statement, "Why don't you go and take care of some real crime?" I'm sure the officer would like too! But Officer Cherrail Curry-Hagler is paid to enforce the laws, not to pick which can be ignored and which should be strictly followed.
Police officers do not command respect, they deserve it. They are out there every day, fighting all crime, big and small.
ASHLEY WHITSON
McLean
1) Chewing in a Metro station?
2) Making a sarcastic remark to an officer of the law?
3) Having a bad attitude?
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-James
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-James
stick to your guns...!
I must say ..there is a God after all...8^)
Look, nobody here hates the police. In fact, we have enormous respect for the police. Far more than I think you realize.
But there are some individuals among law-enforcement agencies (and I am sure you have encountered your fair share) who use their power and authority to disrespect, harrass, and even abuse honest law-abiding citizens. And they do it because they (wrongly) believe they can.
THOSE are who we criticize. The same way we criticize any individual in a high-profile position (i.e., security guards, executives, salespersons, customer-service reps, store managers and cashiers) who behaves in a similarly unprofessional and offensive manner. Not the vast majority who conduct themselves in an exemplary, courteous and dignified manner.
Can we at the very least come to an agreement on that?
-James
-James
Yeah I'm glad you straightened that out. I'd hate to think the kid who started the "Blacks Here To Stay?" thread had his delicate sensibilities bruised.
-James
I mean come on, if the police were out to arrest everyone drinking and eating on the metro we'll be reading this story EVERY SINGLE DAY, its just the news-media once again scewing the story. We don't know exactly what happened.
Arthur Thomas
It talks about ripping trackage and selling the tracks for salvage. Is this a "bad dream" or what?.....
From Newsday:
MTA seeks LIRR fare increase, service cuts
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Joie Tyrrell
Staff Writer
July 29, 2004, 11:55 AM EDT
The Metropolitan Transportation Authority today proposed Long Island Rail Road fares by 5 percent and reducing off-peak service to help close its multimillion-dollar budget deficit.
In a meeting in Manhattan this morning, MTA Executive Director Katie Lapp released details of the 2005 financial plan as well as budget projections for 2005 to 2008. Among the options under consideration are fare hikes for the commuter rails, which include the LIRR and MetroNorth, and LIRR schedule changes that could mean combining a number of trains, according to a source familiar with the plan. The railroad also may cut back on train service during the non-rush hours.
The MTA also proposed reducing the cleaning of train cars and stations.
But in a sign of how dire the agency's finances may be, it's proposed far more draconian and unprecedent cuts for 2006. They include:
Ending service on the West Hempstead, Oyster Bay, Montauk and Greenport lines, ripping up the tracks and selling them for salvage.
Ending weekend service on the Oyster Bay, Far Rockaway, Port Jefferson and West Hempstead branches.
Closing ticket windows at 16 stations.
Combining 30 peak and off-peak trains.
Closing the train car washes.
Possibly a fare increase on top of that.
In addition, the abandoned proposal to combine the LIRR with Metro-North is back on the table.
The agency also has floated raising the costs of discounted multi-use MetroCards -- but not the $2 base fare -- to raise money. The MTA raised LIRR fares by an average of 25 percent last year and the subway fare to $2. The MTA also increased tolls by 25 cents to $1 on nine city-area bridges and tunnels. MTA officials are looking at raising those tolls again.
MTA officials declined to comment yesterday on the proposals but Lapp had directed LIRR officials earlier this year to look into cutting "internal inefficiencies and other matters" to close a gap of $540 million in 2005 that could grow to more than $1 billion in 2006.
"If I were Long Island Rail Road riders, I would be on guard," said Gene Russianoff, lead attorney for the Strap- hangers Campaign. The MTA's gaps are due to rising debt service on bonds to pay for increased borrowing, plus growing pension, benefit and employee health costs, Lapp has said.
Beverly Dolinsky, executive director of the LIRR Commuter's Council, said she expects MTA officials to detail different scenarios as they have done in former budget presentations.
"I think they will say, 'If you have to cut your budget by this much or this much or this much, what does that mean?'" she said. "This will give the public a chance to have input and let the powers that be see what it is."
The board will vote on a final 2005 budget in December. MTA officials are also expected to unveil the 2005 to 2009 capital plan, which likely includes funding for East Side Access linking the LIRR to Grand Central and a third track on the LIRR's Main Line from Bellerose to Hicksville.
Copyright © 2004, Newsday, Inc.
UNBELIEVABLE!
I can't believe they're going to eliminate the Oyster Bay line. That train was pretty full even during the weekends. This has got to be a scare tactic. All those Oyster Bay residents better start looking for bus schedule or tune up that car.
Exactly and because of traffic people will be willing to use the Triboro, and Queens-Midtown Tunnel to get to work, so the money still goes into their pockets.
... is the place to be
Farm livin' is the life for me
Land, spreadin' out so far and wide,
Take Manhattan just give me that countryside!
What's really bad is Shortline cut back big time on serving east o Melville. Now...all there buses terminate/start in Melville except for one each way on friday and sunday. That means no more service except for friday and sunday to Lake Ronkonkoma or Patchogue. Fortunately, Islip is still served by Greyhound.
While they might not need improvement they sure are getting it!
Their winter runs have gone from one outbound in the morning, and one inbound in the evening from 2 towns to 4 round trips to 4 towns each day!
I think we might be looking at even better service coming up.
Ya gotta love the old Zee Boats...
Zee Lion and Zee Whiz
The Zee Whiz supposedly was the old Zee Liner, but they liked the name Zee Whiz so much that they changed the Zee Liner to the Zee Whiz when the liner was retired.
Good one. What bus service that's left will be packed all the way to the back! I guess the days of living 30 miles away from the city are coming to and end.
http://www.sct-bus.org/main.shtml
On the other hand, I sadly find it difficult to argue with ending service on the West Hempstead branch. Most commuters from the few towns served by the line already drive or take a bus to the Hempstead, Rockville Centre, Lynbrook or Valley Stream stations anyway.
I always look at the West Hempstead trains as they leave Jamaica 75% empty during the rush hour and wonder if the Ronkonkoma or Babylon commuters who are standing in the vestibules realize that their train could have two extra cars if it wasn't for capacity being wasted on West Hempstead. To make matters worse, some of the mostly empty trains they send out to West Hempstead during the rush hour are then stranded there beacause the line is only single tracked.
As for the Oyster Bay and Greenport branches, I suspect that both could be eliminated but that the Oyster Bay branch would have enough political support to survive. I don't see any real need for the Greenport branch beyond Riverhead. I agree with those that say ridership to/from Riverhead would increase if service were improved. On the other hand, I don't think extending electrification to Riverhead is an answer. The LIRR and Suffolk County have already made a tremendous investment in Ronkonkoma being the major park and ride hub. Extending electrification east would only create parking issues at those stations and leave empty parking lots and infrastructure at Ronkonkoma.
As respects eliminating weekend service on the Far Rock and Port Jefferson branches, I don't know enough about their ridership. To some extent, the LIRR has been laying the foundation for this for the past few years. About 7 years ago, they added the three SE Queens stations to the Long Beach trains on weekends and took them off the Far Rock trains. Since that time, the Far Rock weekend trains have always looked deserted.
CG
The reason you've never heard anyone describe it this way is probably b/c those people really haven't been on those trains and are just going by rumor and assumption.
OTOH: They would waste millions of dollars for the 2000-2001 hi-level platform installations at the affected stations along Oyster Bay, Montauk, and east of RNK branchs, ADA compliance, and new bi-level coaches that won't be used as much.
The truth is that the NYC metro region is geared towards high level platforms, and that all revolves around the fact that Penn Station and GCT have high level platforms. In other localities, the main CBD stations have low level platforms, so the low level trains work there (such as on Coaster and Metrolink).
And it was more than just those 3 lines, it was also the Port Jeff and Long Island City lines.
The Port Jeff line has had high level platforms for decades already, the same platforms the GP38's, the MP15, and the F units served. They did nothing on that line because of the new bi-levels.
It also led to the abandonement of lots of stations. What a waste.
The stations that were closed were all low use stations. It wasn't "lots" of stations. They were Center Moriches, Holtsville, and Southampton-LIU. Then the Long Island City local stations where the others, stations that it's lucky if there was one passenger a day on some days. The LIRR was trying to dump those LIC stations for years, probably decades. Don't think those would still be open if they had gotten "low" level trains.
The remainder of the diesel stations that did just recieve their high platforms have improved imensely. Most went from being absolute disasters the way they were before, to being clean and neat modern stations. Many had ridership increase after the renovations. For example, Bellport was a complete hovel when it was a low level station. It was just a step above the LIC local stations. No one ever parked there. Now it's ridership has gone way up, and cars are parked in the lot.
That's just one of the examples. 95% of the former low level platform stations are hundreds of times better now than before the platform "raising".
I am sorry the LIC line's stations are gone, but with trains ending only in LIC they had alimited audience. Maybe, with waterfront developments continuing, there will be an employment center which will increase demand for LIRR service beyond the people who transfer to the 7 subway; in that case, I would advocate for places like Glendale, Haberman and Penny Bridge to be revived and get new high-platform stations (well, they would have to now, of course).
Agreed, but don't forget that Fresh Pond was the busiest station on the line when it was running.
That's true, but only when you have equipment that is not able to have level boarding at low level platforms. Systems like Tri-Rail and Metrolink got it right. Level boarding at low level platforms. LIRR easily could've bought cars with doors on the lower and vesitbule levels, which would've saved them the cost of raising all the platforms.
Stations like Tri-Rail, Metrolink, and Coaster don't have a terminal station (like Penn Station) that have high level platforms. If they would have bought low boarding trains like Metrolink (which I don't even think would fit into the tunnels to Penn), they would not have been able to platform at Penn Station or Jamaica. Penn station is the standard we have to deal with on Long Island. You can not have trains that can not platform at the most important station on the line. You are taking the standards of totally different railroads with with different operating standards, and trying to put that on the LIRR.
As for your "great" low level platforms, most of them here basically just a step ahead of the LIC local stations. The renovation and reconstruction made beautiful modern stations out of them. Most were in terrible need of renovation and improvements.
Bellport 1993 (before renovation)
Bellport 1998 (new Platform)
Yaphank 1991 (before renovation)
Yaphank 1998 (new platform)
Mattituck 1992 (before renovation)
Medford 1995 (before renovation)
Southold 1998 (new platform)
Increased commercial development at LIC won't have any significant effect on ridership from (revived) line stations. Except for Richmond Hill and maybe Glendale, none of them are located in the midst of residential neighborhoods with sufficient density to support increased ridership to what will still, by any standards, be a smallish business district.
I know, but why couldn't they have designed cars to have level boarding at both high and low level platforms?
"The Port Jeff line has had high level platforms for decades already, the same platforms the GP38's, the MP15, and the F units served. They did nothing on that line because of the new bi-levels. "
I know stations like Greenlawn were high for a while, but I thought Port Jeff's high was newly built for the diesel fleet. It looks like all the other newly built highs.
It was far more than just those few on the montauk and lower montauk lines. There were also stations like Holtsville and Mill Neck. I think in total it was 13(or was that just the originally planned number of stations they wanted to close?).
Also, from the pictures of yours that I've seen, it looked like, as you said, those montauk stations were not too much better than the LIC stations. That's probably more the reason why they did so poorly.
The platform currently at Port Jeff is the second high level platform at Port Jefferson. Port Jeff had the same type of platfom that all the other ones are like (and are standard in electric territory). They tore the old one down and rebuilt this new one as part of the whole station and station house renovation:
Port Jefferson 1991 (sorry for the poor quality photo, I have better, but don't feel like looking for it now)
Port Jefferson 2003 (a major improvement too)
It was far more than just those few on the montauk and lower montauk lines. There were also stations like Holtsville and Mill Neck. I think in total it was 13(or was that just the originally planned number of stations they wanted to close?).
Nope not that many. Center Moriches, Southampton-LIU, Quogue, Holtsville, Mill Neck (which had like one daily user), and the LIC local stations (which were lucky to have even one daily user). In addition, they wanted to close Glen St and Bellport, but decided against it after protest for those two stations.
Also, from the pictures of yours that I've seen, it looked like, as you said, those montauk stations were not too much better than the LIC stations.
Yes, most of the diesel low level stations were horrible. The Mainline east of Ronkonkoma were the worst (aside from the LIC line), the Montauk's were next, and the Oyster Bay line's were probably the best (although still horrible compared to today's standards on the line.
We've been over that many times. How would a wheelchair bound passenger go about boarding at a low platform station and getting off at a high platform station?
That's exactly the point. On the other systems, where ALL of the stations are low level, like Metrolink, Coaster, etc, wheelchair passengers can eneter and exit. In the NYC area, there are high level platforms, and there is nothing that is going to change that. With ADA laws, there is no way they can go back to a mix of both, it's either one or the other, the western terminals, as well as all of the other stations already hi-level set the standard for the few remaining low level platforms that were still in diesel territory.
And ADA is a federal law, not an MTA law (and a good one at that for people with mobility problems).
I have no idea why you are so obsessed with the old low level platforms, believe me, they were NOTHING to look at.
And as for the stations they abandoned, they were only 5 normal stations abandoned, and the 5 LIC stations (all low use). The LIRR was trying to dump the LIC stations for years and even decades. IF they really wanted to keep them, it would have been simple to build a one door ramp at them to board. The old LIC local service only opened one door on the train at Glendale and all those stations anyway (the stairs were up and not used on most of the train, because they had to be closed to platform at Jamaica). The LIRR had no desire to keep those stations open.
A mix of low and high level platforms.
Rail cars with 4 doors on each side of the car. (twice as many as current). Two high level and two low level. How many seats are lost because of this?
Interior wheelchair lifts. How many seats does this take up?
Throw in an ADA bathroom in every other car, and what is your seating capacity per car?
Have you tried to even sketch out what you're proposing? I suspect it may actually be impossible.
CG
Seriously, though. Sorry if it comes off like bashing -- I just don't get how the idea of having cars with multiple doors for both high and low level platforms is at all practical.
I think that probably 95% of what you've proposed in your website isn't feasible for one reason or another or, often many reasons. It's the 5% that kinda mighta make some sense that is interesting and valuable. If you don't have someone dreaming stuff up, then you just end up keeping what you have and not getting any better.
I think the mixed platforms on the LIRR is squarely in the 95%.
CG
CG
Hey, that's how things are created. Flying machines were once just a dream, and now look. Of course, there was more science behind it, but you get the idea.
You're comparing the development of the airplane with the development of a railcar in search of a problem? The difference is that the airplane opens whole new realms of commerce and warfare that previously did not exist. Your hybrid railcar design solves nothing, it is cheaper to build high platforms at every station than it is to implement your plans. I mean seriously, how expensive is a high platform? You can make it out of wood if need be.
And if you can't come up with good comparisons, don't be surprised when people tear them apart and don't claim that you're being attacked because you can't take the heat.
You contradict yourself. If you can take the heat fine, then you shouldn't complain about my blasting what you say.
sort of
Actually only 3 would be needed - low platform stations tend to be lower ridership. Two high level doors at either end and one low level in the center should do.
Interior wheelchair lifts. How many seats does this take up?
Why not just ramp the gangway - it'll only need to rise about 1ft over 25ft.
Throw in an ADA bathroom in every other car, and what is your seating capacity per car?
You'd only need it in one car, so long as wheelchair users knew which car it was in.
Have you tried to even sketch out what you're proposing? I suspect it may actually be impossible.
My only worries are about loading gauge. With any car narrower than about 10ft, or with a tilting train, this would get tricky.
Which is exactly what my plan calls for.
"Why not just ramp the gangway - it'll only need to rise about 1ft over 25ft."
Too much space taken. A lift is less space.
"You'd only need it in one car, so long as wheelchair users knew which car it was in. "
Just have one of them signs that shows the car is wheelchair accessible.
Too much space taken. A lift is less space.
A railcar needs a gangway anyway. Inclining it at 4% or so isn't gonna take up any extra space.
CG
Don't overdo it. I can't speak for Oyster Bay, but as for Montauk and Port Jeff, they certainly aren't empty in the reverse peak direction, but I really call them "packed" either. It's easy to get a whole section or seats for yourself to stretch out, and your choice of where you want to sit is quite high.
I meant, "but I really wouldn't call them packed" either.
And that Port Jeff train I rode the other day, well. I know for sure it was SRO to Syosset, and still fairly crowded to Smithtown, with about 1/3rd the train still full by Port Jeff
As for the OB line, I'm just going with what I've seen while RFing at Mineola. It's probably only half full, which is still pretty crowded.
Ah, but that only holds true for people who use mass transit for transit.
I have no idea whether or not that statement is true -- but I think it makes logical sense.
I suspect they are laying the groundwork for cancelling East Side Access and the Second Avenue Subway, having been forced by the saints and heros in Albany to borrow too much in the 2000-04 plan, so tax dollars could be diverted elsewhere. And cutting back on maintenence too.
But nothing will happen: as you know who says the sky isn't falling, and all we have to do is write a letter to our state legislator and everything will be fine.
By the way, the time short period to collect and file petitions is now over, and most of them are once again running unopposed. That's how they stay there. The question is, how were people stupid enough to re-elect Pataki?
Because he was the lesser of two ineptitudes. ("Yes, go right ahead, here's 99 percent of our profit as a personal bonus").
Add to this the complete CUTOUT of federal money and there ya are. Farebox covers the cost, or it gets torn down. Across the board from city to state to federal, our politicians are giving us the high hard one. And we WILL kiss them on the lips in November by reelecting each and every one of them. We *are* getting the government we DESERVE. :(
Not all unopposed. At least in the 44th Assembly District, I'll be able to vote for me.
This is like deja vu all over again. Remember in 2002 the City of New York passed a feel-good budget, and the MTA put off talk of its problems, until after the election? The City borrowed $1.5 billion, on which we will pay $100 million per year, just to put off tax increases and service cuts for six months until Pataki and your local legislators were re-elected. The MTA sucked down many of its reserve funds in that time. The biggest campaign contribution in history.
Now it is happening again.
Remember, this is all the result of non-decisions and deals in the 1997 to 2002 period. The winners walked off with the money then. The losers are being sacrificed now. The search for victims has a few more years to run. A shot has to be fired across the bow right now!
And yes, you're absolutely right - but the problem is there's no budget. And the republican congrefs went home without even doing anything about the 9/11 Commission much less a budget themselves. if there's no money and the bills keep coming in, they've got to be paid out of something, and that means the straphanger's pockets. The politicians are all too busy singing that great GoGo's tune, "Vacation." :(
Ronkonkoma needs all the help it can get. Except in the summer, when ridership dips a bit due to vacations, the parking lots are filled soon after 7 am.
None of these draconian cuts will ever see the light of day. They're being used to scare the masses into accepting fare increases.
Jeez, has anyone on this board ever played poker?
More motorists on the highways, I guess.
Exactly... What gets me is the fact that they intend to rip out the tracks! This is insane. They might as well give up the ROW and sell it to some real estate investor!
Then why the hell hasn't LIRR rebuilt the central yet!?
They can just burn.
-Chris
Anyway, this crap'll never happen. There will be rioting in the streets, believe it. Can't even imagine places like Bay Shore or Patchogue without the rail. Anyone who's ever seen the masses getting out ALL ALONG THE MONTAUK BRANCH, crowding the local streets, filling the large taxi buses going to the ferries, as busy as a subway station when a train pulls in, has to laugh at these "plans".
THANK YOU! Yes. The vast majority is intra-island rail travel. Here, in case you haven't seen my plans, check this out. It's plans for 2 intra-island rail systems, one spanning all of Suffolk county, and the other spanning nassau and western suffolk counties.
www.freewebs.com/islandtransitli
I find especially ironic that they list "West Hempstead, Far Rockaway and Oyster Bay." Just three years ago I proposed a thru light rail line on those very branches at a state planning meeting and the LIRR responded "you can't do that." I said "why not? You've always wanted to dump those lines." He said: "That was the past. We want and need those lines now."
I also note the Montauk closure threat. That's called "get the New York City crowd scared." That's because the bulk of the ridership is vacationers from the city.
Actually, the former ROW is between CLP(which I guess is in Garden City) to West Hempstead.
There is no property to condem. I've walked the entire ROW from Mineola to CLP, and the only place blocked is right at Mineola station, where the line needs to be put underground anyway to get under the main line and old country rd. As for CLP to West Hempstead, I'm told it is clear by several people.
Cheaper extension to RFM and the hub? Ok, yeah, those extensions may be cheaper, but what happens when you want to continue expanding the light rail system? The last remaining off road ROW open is the central, and maybe a few open spaces. After that, it's all roads for light rail, which is bad. By doing this thing with heavy rail, it's compatible with the LIRR, meaning easy expansion.
Also, in case you haven't visited, at my site
www.freewebs.com/islandtransitli
I've got an intra-island heavy rail system that would use the same tracks as LIRR, plus former and new ROWs. I have several routes through the nassau hub via the secondary, one of which actually loops around it. I also have routes to RFM and The Source Mall, with shuttle buses to bring people to the store doorsteps.
Secondary but important is the labor issue. For a cross-island line to have some impact, it would need better frequency than the LIRR can provide. Hourly runs are a non-starter. The staffing requirements of a three-person crew make more frequent service virtually impossible.
Appropriately so, because without additional capacity into Manhattan and (a very close second) additional trunk line capacity, it is not possible to improve service on the island.
Electrification reduces operating costs as compared to diesel.
Light rail can be useful for intra-island transportation, because it can offer more closely spaced local stops than LIRR can and at the same time, it can act as a feeder into LIRR trains (and vice versa, a distributor of passengers getting off LIRR trains who would have to drive cars or use LI Bus or Suffolk Transit to finish their trips.
Now, if we could convert some current bus lines into light rail(or trolley, like port washington business association wants to do with the N23), then that'd work out great. Also, I've mapped out a possible light rail or trolley line from HTC to NCC via Westbury Blvd(Charles G, I think this was your idea, right?).
If you're going to create a light rail system, you should do things that make it likely to be successful. Intentionally having it avoid a major commercial district and population center just one mile away is just silly.
If you're going to do it, do it right.
It's just like when they want to raise rent on th rent stabilized apartmments, the tenants always ask for 0% increases and the landlord groups always ask for 9% or some outrageous number, and then when it lands somewhere in the middle landlords aren;t upset because they got something, and tenants arent upset because it's not as high as was "proposed".
Don't worry, it's all hype.
http://albany.bizjournals.com/albany/stories/2001/06/18/daily41.html "Cracks found in LIRR locomotives"
Same funhouse is rebuilding the "Turbo Trains" ... any questions? :)
Glenville...ahhhh ...Walmart central...Many days I spent in that hellhole doing the shopping thing,only to lose everybody that came along...I hate that store...
Trains had to be "Made in New York" so apparently Al D'Amato got a mess of "H1 visas" and brought in folks from Mexico and Guyana to build 'em but that plant was comical to watch. Managers from Illinois shouting out to floor workers who didn't understand a word they were saying. Heh. The "locomotive drop" though was something to see. Apparently that had happened a few other times according to one of the guys there who just shook his head and told us, "you didn't see that." =)
Also I think the one or two EMD-built DE or DM30ACs came out just fine. The design was sound, Super Steel's construction was not.
But no surprise, none at all. :(
Adam
It is often noticed by the passengers[or people who know better]that the people in charge are stupid...
Vengence is right, with the money they spent on those stupid trains, they could have done a lot more, like electrify to Port Jefferson or Patchogue, although they do plan to extend to Yaphank in the coming years.
One train a day each way on each diesel line direct to Penn is no where near worth the money they spent on those things.
Always double track before electrifyin. Otherwise it's a pointless waste. You'll have trains that should be capable of running within minutes of eachother that are stuck waiting for trains traveling in the opposite direction.
Yeah, they learned lots from that, that it was a great idea to electrify the Ronkonkoma and that it's similarly important to electrify to Port Jefferson. What they didn't expect is that because the service runs frequently and more efficiently on the Ronkonkoma Branch, and is a one seat ride, that so many people would abandon the Port jefferson and Montauk Branches for the Ronkonkoma Branch. That's what they didn't expect - the great success of the Ronkonkoma branch. (See photo below to see what Ronkonkoma looked like until 1987)
Electrifying to Port Jefferson will ease the congestion on the Ronkonkoma Branch considerably.
Elextrification to Patchogue or Mastic should follow. The only reason I say it should go further than Patchogue is because there is no place to build a bigger parking lot or storage yard in the Patchogue Village area. Room still exists in the Mastic-Shirley area.
Electrification to Yaphank will also ease the situation on Ronkonkoma too. There are plenty people from points east that drive all the way to Ronkonkoma to get the service there, and that is even people south of the mainline along the Montauk Branch because the Ronkonkoma branch is faster than the Montauk branch.
The original Ronkonkoma Station before Electrification (below), and we all what Ronkonkoma looks like today. If this isn't proof of "if you build it they will come", I don't know what is. Electrification turned Ronkonkoma from a backwoods station into what it is today. Electrification to Yaphank and Port Jeff is the only thing that will ease this success.
Frankenstein's Monster.
So...what....you're saying the line needs to be overcrowded and backed up for them to have a nice station house?
"Electrifying to Port Jefferson will ease the congestion on the Ronkonkoma Branch considerably."
No. Double tracking the KO will reduce congestion on the KO considerably. It's gonna be the same problem with the Port Jeff line. Trains are going to have to be constantly held up and the schedule will have to be even more limited than if it were 2 track diesel. Why? You can't have 2 trains traveling in different directions on the same track. And passing sidings do almost nothing to help. They just move the congestion and delays to another point. And it's not like in LA where all the trains go into the city in the morn, and to the burbs in the evenin. Reverse commute is very popular, even on the Port Jeff.
"Electrification to Yaphank will also ease the situation on Ronkonkoma too. "
No. It will just extend the congestion further east. Yeah, it'll ease the parking situation a tad.
The only reason that to us, diesel seems crappy, is b/c LIRR doesn't know how to run a successful, or even halfway decent, diesel service. I'm starting to think they purposely bought shit for diesels just to make it seem even more necesary to electrify.
They can double track all they want, that won't help the problem of the nightmare Ronkonkoma station is. Only electrification of another line will get people away from the Ronkonkoma branch. The Ronkonkoma branch is a victim of it's own success. The congestion I am talking about is not train congestion, it's total mayhem in the parking lots. Double tracking will do NOTHING to ease that. They need to get people OFF the Ronkonkoma branch, and onto the Port Jeff Branch, or even the Montauk branch in the further future.
The only thing double tracking will allow for is possibly some more reverse peak trains, it will do nothing for the mayhem and congestion at Ronkonkoma. Reverse peak is all well and good, but that's not the problem, the problem is acres of parking, and still no place to park because so many people are using the line.
So...what....you're saying the line needs to be overcrowded and backed up for them to have a nice station house?
No I don't care what the station looks like. I am saying that the Ronkonkoma branch EXPLODED in 1987 with electrification. Within 5-10 years of electrification the place was unrecognizable. There was a passenger explosion, and that was because of the electrification.
No. It will just extend the congestion further east. Yeah, it'll ease the parking situation a tad.
It will ease the disaster at Ronkonkoma alot. Yes it will bring that to Yaphank then, however that combined with electrification to Port Jeff will even out the passenger load much better.
The only reason that to us, diesel seems crappy, is b/c LIRR doesn't know how to run a successful, or even halfway decent, diesel service.
I never said diesel service was crappy. Personally, I prefer it, but that's as a railfan. However, LI is bounded by the East River tunnels. Electrification is the answer. It's not like the Genesis units were not without their problems either.
I'm starting to think they purposely bought shit for diesels just to make it seem even more necesary to electrify.
No, that I don't believe. They could have just spent the money to electrify without this costly disaster. They tried to take the cheaper way out with the dual modes, and the experiment failed terribly. It will now cost them more in the long run.
AFter the smoke clears, they have one, maybe two round trip direct diesel service on the diesel branches to Penn. With electrification, it could have been 100%.
NOT TRUE. Geez. Think about it. Why is KO successful? One seat ride! Here's an idea....improve the other diesel lines so that they also provide more frequent one seat rides to NYP. And improve them so that they run more frequently.
"The only thing double tracking will allow for is possibly some more reverse peak trains"
Not so. Think about it. Right now, east and westbound trains have to share the same track. That obviously limits the number of regular commute bound trains. By installing a second track, LIRR can run more regular commute and yes, true, more reverse commute. I don't see why this isn't obvious to someone who I've found to generally be smart.
"I never said diesel service was crappy. Personally, I prefer it, but that's as a railfan. However, LI is bounded by the East River tunnels. Electrification is the answer. It's not like the Genesis units were not without their problems either"
No, electrification is not the answer. Improved diesel service is. And better dual mode engines. Yes, everything has problems in the begining, but look at genesis now. They doin great. LIRR should've gone with them.
"They tried to take the cheaper way out with the dual modes, and the experiment failed terribly."
That's b/c instead of going with something that has proven itself, they went with a totally new design, model, and what not.
"AFter the smoke clears, they have one, maybe two round trip direct diesel service on the diesel branches to Penn. With electrification, it could have been 100%."
That's b/c LIRR can't run even a halfway decent diesel operation for shit. And you seem to forget, even with electrification, alot of trips require transfers. Why? Not enough capacity at NYP. This is one reason we need ESA.
One idea that might help, though implementation wouldn't be easy, is to charge a substantial premium for Ronkonkoma monthly tickets for people who live closer to the Port Jefferson or Montauk lines. Increasing use of Mail & Ride actually might make implementation less complex.
Agreed, overall, with your assessment. Of course, additional capacity into Manhattan would help too. Thats coming, but they need to speed it up. Maybe they should take the $2 billion the White House wants to give a new airport link and give it to ESA instead (I know that can't happen because that serves midtown).
"The only thing double tracking will allow for is possibly some more reverse peak trains, it will do nothing for the mayhem and congestion at Ronkonkoma."
You're seriously underestimating the value of double-tracking.
Doubletracking can:
1) Allow a full service to operate in each direction; or
2) Allow the use of one track for express trains and the other for local "wrong-railing" trains, which would directly help loading problems at Ronkonkoma and stations further down the line.
3) With enough crossovers built in, allow trains to go around scheduled or unscheduled obstacles.
Of course, none of this means much if the trains then have to come to a screeching halt at a Stop signal in front of the East River tubes.
So:
1) Finish up ESA sooner rather than later
2) Double-track Ronkonkoma
3) Extend both double-track and electrification beyond current limits on other nearby lines.
With the population of Western and Central Suffolk having grown so much, it seems that there are 3 options:
1. Do Nothing. Despite the relative suckiness of the commute, people keep moving there and keep commuting to NYC. The suckiness of the commute serves to keep housing costs affordable. If you make the commute too user-friendly, demand to live in the area will surge and the area will become unaffordable.
2. Make a committment to the Ronkonkoma as the premier line through Suffolk and reduce the Montauk and Port Jeff branches to being neighborhood stations. This is kinda sorta what they've done so far, without making the full committment. To really make this work, you need the third track on the Main Line and a second track on the Ronk. It may also involve electrification to Riverhead. You may need to close a station or two along the Ronk and make the remaining stations all into major park and ride stations.
3. Leave the Ronk the way it is and improve service on the other branches. This could include either electrification or purchasing additional DM engines (hold your rotten fruit, please) in order to allow for more one-seat rides into Penn.
Part of the problem (at least here) is that for the most part, we don't know where all these Ronk riders are coming from. If they're coming from further east, then extension of electrification (or at lesat improved service) to Riverhead is the answer. If they're coming from north and south of the line, then improvement of the other branches is likely the answer. It's worth noting that the Montauk branch is only 4 miles south of the Ronk and only one mile north of the water (at most). I'm not sure that improvements to the Montauk are going to really solve any of the problems on the Ronk.
No matter what solution one advocates, the Law of Unintended Consequences definitely applies. The right solution could mean tremendous further development and growth for Suffolk.
CG
But why? Why not just run dual modes from Riverhead, or even Greenport all the way to NYP. Why waste they money on a one seat ride when the ability is already there?
"You may need to close a station or two along the Ronk and make the remaining stations all into major park and ride stations. "
See.....now I'm starting to worry. Close stations? How about not.
"Montauk branch is only 4 miles south of the Ronk and only one mile north of the water (at most). "
Trust me. It is definately more than a mile north of the water. Bay Shore is about a mile and a half, Sayville is about 2 miles, and Patchogue is about another mile and a half. I may be off by a little, as I'm going on by the time it took me to walk to the ferry terminals at those towns.
It's simple. Finish ESA, route enough electrics to GCT so that every diesel line has atleast hourly service to NYP. Not Huntington, not Babylon, not Jamaica, all the way to NYP. As for the Greenport line....throw in maybe one or even 2 direct trains to/from NYP in the peak hour directions.
How about we don't trust you and just measure it. According to Yahoo Maps, Sayville Station is 1.1 miles north of the water. Bay Shore is 0.9 miles. Patchogue is 0.8 miles. Looks like you're off by about a factor of 2. I suspect that your descriptions of the ridership levels on those lines are off by about the same factor.
As for my ridership description, I had something to count that with. My eyes. I know what I saw. Maybe by some strange fluke, all those times, there was some sort of special occasion, but for now, I'm staying with my belief that that is what those trains are usually like. Until you ride those trains for yourself, you got no reason to question my ridership descriptions. So go on, see for your self.
Anyone else who's posted about those lines -- including someone who rides east of Ronkonkoma almost everyday -- has indicated that the ridership is quite light. If I remember correctly, you've posted here or at railroad.net that at least one of your trips east of Ronkonkoma was for the purpose of a Railroad Museum event -- so I wouldn't count that day as normal ridership.
CG
It helps LIRR regardless of what else the agency does (but requires ESA's completion to be useful).
Mail & Ride information ties together stations and home addresses and might allow for some reasonable estimates. I have no idea if the LIRR has ever done any work of that sort.
In any event, if I had to hazard a guess, I'd say that Ronkonkoma actually is the closest station for a majority of its riders. There are densely populated communities for which its the closest station, places like Centerreach, Selden, Lake Grove, and Ronkonkoma itself. Of course, given the vast number of people using Ronkonkoma, even if only, say, 15% of them live closer to other lines, that's still a lot of people.
Obviously, if there was decent electric service at Yaphank or Manorville, she would no longer use Ronkonkoma, but would go there instead. I'm sure there are a lot of people like her. Ronkonkoma is so busy because not only do they get all the "dense" areas as you mentioned, Ronkonkoma also gets all the people from east of there, on both shores of Long Island.
I also knew a guy that used to commute from Patchogue to the city. He would also drive to Ronkonkoma instead of using Patchogue on the Montauk branch.
Even if it is as low as 15% of Ronkonkoma users that aren't
"local", as you said, that's still a major portion of the passengers that use Ronkonkoma. They really need to extend electrification to at least Yaphank to ease the mayhem at Ronkonkoma.
It's not just a matter of sprucing up the Montauk Branch or the Port Jeff branch with more service. The Montauk Branch runs excellent service to Patchogue. You can't ask for better service than half-hourly or every 20 minutes at rush hour, and that's what the Patchogue to Babylon segment gets. The fact remains though that it is FASTER to use Ronkonkoma. Electrification cut close to a half hour off the route's time.
Running times on Ronkonkoma are faster, but I'm not so sure electrification is the real reason. The Port Jefferson line suffers from a rather roundabout routing, nothing at all like Ronkonkoma's arrow-straight route. Montauk/Babylon's less meandering than P.J., but it's still more roundabout than Ronkonkoma and almost all trains on the line have more stops than their Ronkonkoma counterparts.
I still think that charging a premium monthly fare for non-locals is the best way to ease some of the pressure on Ronkonkoma. If people want to pay for a faster ride, they'll have that option.
By the way, there's another issue too. Let's not forget that train seating on the P.J. and Montauk lines is far more comfortable than on Ronkonkoma, a gap that will only grow as more and more Ronkonkoma train become M-7's with their sadistic torture seats.
The layover for "Change at Hicksville" where is where the majority of the trains had the passengers change (like at Babylon) was generally 5 minutes, so that can't be attributed to all the time savings now that they are electric.
What if there was decent diesel service that went all the way to NYP. It'd be the same thing.
"They really need to extend electrification to at least Yaphank to ease the mayhem at Ronkonkoma. "
Ugh. No, just run the DMs from Riverhead to NYP. It'd be cheaper
You calculate lower costs for diesel service compared to electric service? You calculate LIRR diesel trains of the same length have faster acceleration rates than LIRR electric trains of the same length?
If you could share your sources it would help to sort things out. Basically where service isn't going to be infrequent the trains should be electric. As the LIRR's plans seem to show, their diesel operations aren't cheaper, which as another poster wrote is in line with most systems worldwide.
I still think electric is a waste unless you're gonna run trains every few minutes.
1. - Doing nothing just exacerbates the traffic problem here on LI. Many of the people who have moved east do not work in NYC but work on LI. Witness the growth of the office parks/buildings in Great Neck, Lake Success, Jericho, Melville and Hauppage. I'd bet most of the cars on the LIE in rush hour are getting on at one entrance and getting off at another rather than going all the way into Manhattan. When I met my wife she lived in Syosset and I lived in Sunnyside. When I would go out on to stay over on weekends, the LIE was stop and go from 48th Street to Little Neck Parkway. The jam e/b eased a little from LNP to Glen Cove Road. Then once you got past GCR it was "hammer down" on the pedal and go like heck. Now with people communting intra-island its a parking lot from NYC out to Hauppauge.
The idea of mass transit should be to get as many people and cars as possible off of the roads. Doing nothing with a growing population is a formula for future disaster.
2 - By improving the Ronkonkoma Branch to the detriment of other lines is foolish. Your suggestion of "build it and they will come" will mean more congestion around the station. Also by making the improvements you suggest, how many more riders will use the main line?
Will there be enough parking and how much will the rush-hour capacity be increased. I'm sure that the ridership and congestion increased exponentially when the line was electrified.
3 - Best solution since you will be distributing the ridership to other lines. Therefore not everyone will be converging on one spot at the same time and easing some traffic jams in that part of Suffolk County. I'm sure if there were more one seat rides to NYP people living in parts of Centereach, Selden and Stony Brook would go to the PJ line and ease the problems of the Ronkonkoma line.
The LIRR should take #3 into consideration along with better reverse and intra-island commuting. Perhaps if buses could be routed to some stations and a reasonalbly priced combo ticket issued perhaps people would take a train from, for example, Kings Park to Huntington and get on the S-1 down to Melville or open the old Republic Station on the Ronkonkoma line and take the S-1 northbound to Melville.
That's been proposed. Medford's parking lot recently was enlarged and paved, and the fares made the same as Ronkonkoma's.
I meant drive to Ronkonkoma.
Electrifying to Riverhead without other improvements makes the parking situation at Ronkonkoma better, but does little else. If parking at Ronkonkoma is the only problem, then build a parking deck or two -- it's a lot cheaper than electrifying.
If you only electrify to Riverhead without other improvements, there would be fewer people boarding at Ronkonkoma, and more boarding at Medford, Yaphank and Riverhead. You'd still have the same number of people riding the trains (or perhaps even more), but the same limitations in terms of rolling stock and line capacity. (no second track between Farmingdale and Ronk (Riverhead?) and no third track between Floral Park and Hicksville.
CG
You've hit the nail right on the head. The last changes to the Ronkonkoma branch were the addition of AM 2 peak trains & I believe just 1 PM peak train. 2098 & 2099 and IIRC 2017 were added to reduce crowding on trains but added major congestion on the line. It's not uncommon to see Westbounds holding at JS interlocking (west of Deer Park) for an eastbound to clear the single track from Farmingdale. At the same time Eastbounds frequently are held at Brentwood and Farm 2 Interlocking to wait for Westbounds.
West of divide, the congestion is more obvious. Train 2015 runs west on the eastbound track to Queens - meaning that no eastbounds can use the mainline for that 15 minute block. Of course 2015 is just one of a half dozen or more that use that same track. The need for the 3rd track is obvious but rest assured NIMBYs in NHP, Mineola Westbury etc will all be waving environmental impact studies and legal challanges that will make the project a 'future wish' for our lifetimes.
The one thing you didn't mention is the need for more equipment to support additional service even if the additional track capacity is added. For US Open, the LIRR had to run Bus Service on other non-electrified branches just to add extra capacity to the Montauk branch. Every day we hear the announcement that a particular train will be operating 2 cars short. It would seem to be just as critical that the LIRR re-evaluate the scrapping of some of the M-1s and look to a GOH program to retain the service of some of them for another 15 years. This could be done for less than 1/2 of the cost of the same number of M-7 purchases.
If you double track Ronkonkoma first, you still won't be able to run reverse-peak service since you can't get east of Floral Park to even get to the Ronkonkoma branch.
There is no need for two westbound tracks in the AM or two eastbound tracks in the PM. The Ronkonkoma branch has 5 TPH at the peak of either rush hour. A single track with some passing sidings can handle that operation just fine.
CG
Not true. There is sufficient capacity even without it. The main bottleneck in the system happens i
LIC, when Far Rockaway and Port Washington trains are added to the Manhattan-bound mix.
However, a third main track is very useful (but worthless without ESA)
"There is no need for two westbound tracks in the AM or two eastbound tracks in the PM. The Ronkonkoma branch has 5 TPH at the peak of either rush hour"
False statement. Single-track with siding inevitably leads to delays with the variations in daily ops.
Order of priority:
1) ESA (prerequisite for everything else).
2) Third track to Hicksville
2) Double-track Ronkonkoma (equal priority)
3) Extend electrification and double-tracking on other lines
I can't follow past this however. If part of the reason why Ronkonkoma ridership is up is because riders are driving there instead of to diesel lines then it would logically follow that we need to analyze where this ridership is coming from to decide whether double tracking the Ronkonkoma branch should be higher-priority then extending electrification. If electrifying the Port Jefferson line east of Huntington and the Montauk branch to some roughly parallel point would reduce the need for double tracking the Ronkonkoma line that necessarily affects a list of priorities. Therefore with currently available information there seems to be no definitive way to decide that double-tracking the Ronkonkoma branch is more necessary than electrifying other branches. In view of the reduced operating costs and opportunity to operate increased electric service it seems that further electrification may be a higher priority.
Moreover if we look at other lines, electrification provides a more immediate solution. Consider the Port Washington line which is single-tracked east of Great Neck and the diesel Oyster Bay line. Double-tracking the Port Washington line isn't feasible because of terrain and the construction costs but electrifying the Oyster Bay line would reduce demand on the Port Washington line east of Great Neck by stemming the tide of riders who basically defect from the Oyster Bay line and its infrequent diesel service for the electrified but single-tracked portion of the Port Washington line.
Therefore I would list the following priorities.
1. Build ESA and SAS from 34-125 Sts. Consider and study modifications to ESA to reduce cost and if worthwhile make them.
2. Electrify.
2. Third track.
3. Double-track as required after studying changes in ridership brought on by extended electrified trackage.
People go to KO for the one seat ride. Patchogue service is great now, but it only goes to Jamaica. Run those trains to NYP, all you'll see an increase in ridership there, and decrease on the main.
OB is 30 min headways durin the rush(right?). The problem with the line is that it hardly ever runs to NYP. That's what people want, is the one seat ride.
I say:
1. ESA and SAS
2. 3rd and 2nd tracks
3. more DMs to NYP
You are absolutely correct. The reason the Ronkonkoma branch is so busy is because people come from the other lines to use it. Extending electrification on the Port Jeff line will take people away from the Ronkonkoma branch, thus the capacity of the Ronkonkoma line is sufficient just the way it is. I would advocate extending electrification a bit further east to improve service a bit further east, and also taking some of the strain off of the Ronkonkoma station itself.
I think you're misinformed about a few things here. First, the Far Rockaway branch joins the Manhattan-bound mix at Valley Stream (you missed that one by about 15 miles, so you must be thinking of something else but I can't think of what it would be). Second, the biggest bottleneck in the system is Jamaica. Always has been, always will be (especially now that the AirTrain concourse has pretty much eliminated any hope for the Jamaica flyover tracks). Plenty of peak period trains sail through the LIC area and into the Penn tunnels. Not so at Jamaica where express trains generally crawl through at 5-10 MPH and often come to a dead stop for a few minutes.
CG -- "There is no need for two westbound tracks in the AM or two eastbound tracks in the PM. The Ronkonkoma branch has 5 TPH at the peak of either rush hour"
RiB -- "False statement. Single-track with siding inevitably leads to delays with the variations in daily ops."
You may believe this to be true, but there is no evidence of this on the Ronk line. Outside of rush hour, the line runs hourly. The stretch that is single track with siding takes about 25 minutes to cover on a local. Scheduling during the off-peak is simple.
There have been two reasons posted for why the Ronk should be double tracked. The first is that it will allow for reverse peak service. Clearly, the Main Line third track is a prerequisite then because you can't have reverse peak service if there's no available eastbound track from Floral Park to Hicksville.
The second is that it will allow for better train flow during the peak period. On the Ronk, this doesn't hold any water. With a max 5 TPH, you'd be building the second track for at most one single train each day. Looking at the current Ronk schedule, all of the express trains seem to have plenty of cushion without catching their local leader. The Babylon branch manages 14 TPH westbound between Freeport and Valley Stream with two tracks (and even finds some time to squeeze in an eastbound reverse peak and a few eastbound deadhead moves) -- I find it hard to believe that 5 TPH is too much for Ronk.
CG
Other than pausing for connections which is an intentional delay, are the delays due to switching?
Here's a description of the AM rush. 60-70 trains come in from the east on 5 different tracks. Unfortunately, they need to be switched across each others paths in order to make the appropriate connections once you reach the 5 tracks in Jamaica station. About two-thirds of those trains stop in the station for about 2 minutes. The others are supposed to pass through without stopping. West of the station, the trains may again need cross paths in order to send them to their appropriate western terminal (if conditions didn't allow them to get properly situated while east of the station).
If everything runs according to schedule, the operation is a thing of beauty. One train delayed by about 2 minutes or so can slow the whole thing down. A couple of trains delayed by 10 minutes ripples 5-10 minute delays through the entire system. A stalled train in Jamaica (or a single track out of service) generally makes for 30 minute delays systemwide.
"It's hourly mid-day, and half-hourly or better rush hours. What more can you ask for? But the passengers abandon it in herds for the Ronkonkoma branch. "
It's the same thing. It needs more direct NYP runs. Also, alot of people in that area are probably commuting to central nassau, which is only served by one train each way that is useful for commuters on the montauk.
". The current success of the Ronkonkoma branch is not there because the former service was so crappy, it's because the new service is direct to Penn."
EXACTLY! Screw electrification for now. Finish ESA. Increase the number of direct trains to NYP on the diesel lines, and you'll see a decrease in the KO mess.
Don't worry, the LIRR will always have logistics problems. If they ever do get ESA completed, service will still be limited. Then you'll read all about how Jamaica is a bottleneck and that they can't get enough trains through Jamaica in order to provide full service to both GCT and Penn.
Please do not use a statement like "false statement" unless you can actually back up your own statement with facts. If things have changed, which site did they choose exactly that they have all the necessary "approvals" on?
I think that's a terrible decision. If they're going to extend electrification, they should do it all the way to Port Jeff. Whatever town (possibly with the sole exception of Port Jeff) that they choose for the end of electrification will have a "Ronkonkoma Effect" where passengers from east of there flock to that station to take advantage of the one-seat ride. (this has already happened at Huntington). Add in that the remaining short diesel stretch will likely then become a red-haired stepchild (if they electrify to Smithtown, then you have a 3 station diesel line -- raise you hand if you think that will make service better or worse to those stations).
CG
As for Charles' observation, he is right, the electrification of part of the rest of the Port Jeff line would have the "Ronkonkoma effect" at whatever station it would be. Huntington does have a "Ronkonkoma" effect too. It proves that when electrification comes, so do the passengers.
This is true over the past too. When electrification was first extended to Babylon (long before the grade leimination project), the south shore stations east of Babylon exploded with ridership.
When electrification was first extended to Babylon (long before the grade elimination project), the south shore stations east of Babylon exploded with ridership.
I meant "west" of Babylon.
With continuing towards Wading River, there'd be practically no space until Rocky Point at least. Might as well put the entire branch back :-D
You are referring to something else. The ESA contracted yards are in Sunnyside and at GCT.
Additional yard space is being sought, as you point out, and it is indirectly related to ESA inasmuch as projects like double-tracking and electrification of the Port Jeff or other lines will create a need for them.
"Please do not use a statement like "false statement" unless you can actually back up your own statement with facts"
I did, so my use of "false statement" here was absolutely correct. You'rewelcome to challenge it anytime of course, but then YOU need to have your facts straight.
Figuring out how to get trains through there at more than 5 mph totally eldues the LIRR. Hey, they've had only 90+ years to solve the problem, give them more time!
I wouldn't characterize it as whining, just a statement of fact. Hell, the LIRR could come to a dead stop for 10 minutes at Jamaica and I'd still be willing to pay twice the current price rather than drive into Manhattan.
ESA will be nice, but not even close to a panacea for the LIRR's capacity problems.
After pondering the issue for years, I still cannot fathom this fetish for the one-seat ride. Your typical Alpha Male regards hauling his suit-covered anus five feet across the platform at Jamaica/Babylon/Huntington as akin to competing in the Ironman Triathalon while wearing a 100-lb. back pack. I just can't understand why.
I live close enough to Jamaica, though, that I can't really get anything done in the time before I'd have to be packing up and getting ready to transfer. The SCA's coming in from Ronkonkoma are a different story, though -- there's plenty of time to get things done between Ronk and Jamaica, even if you're unable to get anything done between Jamaica and NYC.
I loved working downtown. Then any train was a one-seat ride. Plenty of times I'd get on without knowing where the train was even going. I'd just figure it out when we got there.
CG
True, but on the other hand most Ronkonkoma riders don't actually do any work on the trains, at least in my experience. Your typical SCA type reads the sports pages in an obsessive manner, as if the secrets of the human existence were about to be revealed there, even though it's obvious from his physique that his own athletic accomplishments are limited to playing a round of golf with an electric cart and bragging afterwards (over beers, of course) about what a killer workout he had, assuming changing channels on the TV remote doesn't qualify as exercise, and ... you know, I'm starting to rant, I'd better stop.
It was always like a TWIGHLIGHT ZONE type transfer, there was an element of something off-setting about the ride. The best ride on the system though. Best non-river tunnels, coolest lineside variety, "secret stations", strange terminal. Haven't done it recently with the new trains. But I hope the thrill is still there.
Gee, I drifted off the topic. Sorry.
Ideally you are pairing those contracts and getting them done at the same time.
Electricity is cheaper than diesel on a per kilowatt-hour basis, and 25kv constant tension cat is cheaper to install on any line longer than 5-7 miles. Get the right amount of money from the FTA and you've got it made for funding for the next 60 years.
All you gotta do is order some Siemens locos based on the Class 189 class from Germany, string some cat, and you now have made the crappy DE/DM30ACs obsolete. The C-3s can be pulled just as well (if not better) by the electrics as by the diesels. And the LIRR will save in the long run since (provided the 3rd rail gaps at Jamaica aren't too great) you don't have to have two electrics on each train going into NYP, it can run off the 11.5kv gap-less AC Catenary, and Amtrak won't have to worry about them gapping out like they do with the DM30ACs.
Scrap eveything. Replace it all with Colorado Railcar and fit the DMUs with 3rd rail shoes. Take out all the 3rd rail, except for between Jamaica and NYP. Then there ya go. Better mileage(lower fuel costs), no more 3rd rail maitenance costs(except for between Jam and NYP). Then, make most of the platforms on the system low level(cheaper to maintain). Colorado Railcar has cars that can provide level boarding at low level AND high level platforms, so compatability aint an issue. Hey, maybe even get Bombardier bi-levels....or can they not fit into the east river tunnel?
Just some really outlandish and crazy thoughts for everyone to flame me with.
Diesels are lower cost and maintence than the electrics.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!
Tear out alL the electrification except between Penn and Jamaica!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
Make the Baylon Branch, the most efficient line in the system diesel!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
Low level platform everything!!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
OMG, I CAN'T TAKE IT, I"M gonna bust a gut - HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
I never said I was reconfiguring LIRR's power supply system, just removing the wasteful diesel lines with something that fits their western terminals better than the diesel units. The 3rd rail can stay, although in the interest of creating a regional railroad system, it might be good to run 11.5kv wire from Harold to Jamaica, allowing NJT trains to run through, and for later LIRR dual-mode trains to run through to Trenton, or at least Secaucus. Running Cat to Jamaica would also eliminate the danger of the ALP48s gapping out on the larger 3rd rail gaps in the area, and it'd give them better acceleration in an area most of them will be bound to stop at.
Every single one of your proposals to save LIRR's money would in the end cost you more. 3rd rail maitenance is nothing when compared to the cost you'd pay in diesel fuel, especially if you want to run a 12 car train of DMUs, you'd be looking at massive fuel consumption. For the same amount of power, commericially delivered power, even with LIPA's Shoreham markups, is cheaper than the equivilant amount of power found in diesel fuel. Given the greater efficiency of an electric motor when compared to a diesel-mechanical drive, you're looking at costing LIRR a significant chunk of change in the end. Also making a CRC DMU 3rd rail compatible would take a miracle of Mechanical Engineering. You're looking at a DMU with a Diesel-Hydraulic drive, similar to an automatic transmission, to strap an electric motor in there and make the whole thing move would require a small miracle. And really you'd end up with little more than something with the complexity of a Rhor Turbo, and the performance of a Genesis on both diesel and electric, since one is always hauling the other around. Now CRC DMUs could work for the lines to OB, Shuttles to greenport or Port Jeff, but really for rush hour service the DMUs would cost more than the EMUs, so why bother?
Destroying high platforms would accomplish nothing, they cost little to maintain, and indeed may last longer than an asphalt paved low platform. I'd be against the construction of new high platforms, but they're there so why bother destroying them? Especially when the CRC DMU is clearly not a low platform-level boarding vehicle, you'd need traps and would lose ADA compliance if you bought CRC DMUs and destroyed the high plats.
Also, the BBD Bilevels won't fit into NYP, hence the reason LIRR had to buy from Kawasaki. Also NYP is high platform, and Amtrak sure as hell isn't going to low platform it for a little pissant commuter railroad.
The simple truth in all transit, and indeed in all of life is that you can pay now, or you can pay later. Inevitably you pay more later. For LIRR they could get the feds in to give them a hand lifting the burden of diesel operations from their shoulders, get deals from LIPA for cut-rate power, and be in a postion with Amtrak to grab back some of their NYP slots when ESA opens in 6-8 years. The demand for ridership may not be out to Greenport now, but in 10 years it will be. Trains don't make sprawl, highways do, the highways have been there for quite some time now, western Suffolk county is getting crowded, and people will move east. As such it only stands to reason that for a change LIRR would want to be ahead of the curve, ready to serve those passengers and keep them off the LIE.
Or they could bury their head in the sand and pretend it will all go away...
I invite you to take a second look. No, not all of their equipment is, but some of it is.
There may be clearance issues however. Can the lower level of the 63 St and Park Ave tunnels use catenary? Still there's alot of money to be saved if the effort to serve both terminals is cooperative. That's only possible if the power delivery method eventually becomes unified.
Are’t we talking about very Republican counties out there, who will howl to Pataki & Bruno?
Bastards..didn't they learn their lesson already?
After buying those garbage engines and wackass Bilevels...they come off with this......
The LONG ISLAND RAILROAD and the City subway ought to become one,with thru services provided....
* Scrap ESA. NOW. It's not realistic, it's not even usable with the existing LIRR.
* Discontinue the OB line beyond Glen Street, make Glen Street a 2 track terminal. Leave the OB tracks there in case we ever want to use them again, though.
* Dump the diesel fleet, NOW. The LIRR needs to cut their losses with these turds, and I suspect that's part of the reason they want to drop all diesel territory but the PJ line.
* Electrify to Speonk, PJ, Glen Street. With the money saved from not doing EAS, this will be cheap and easy.
* Third main track.
* Bustitute the Greenport scoot. Again.
At least this way, some money will be saved (no ESA to drain capital!), some lines will be partly preserved, the remainder of the system will be better served (thus hoping to boost ridership), and the system will be in better shape if/when ESA gets built.
Please explain.
And what is it with you and abandonning the OB past Glen St. I've told you over a dozen times. There are plenty of people who ride east of there.
The current diesel engine fleet is shit, agreed. The C3s are good though, except that they cost the LIRR in their being only accesible via high level platforms. LIRR should've just gone with off the shelf for both the cars and the diesels.
Electrify all that? What's the point? It's useless. It's extra money spent, which could be better spent on other things, and it costs more to maintain. That's even more money wasted.
Third track main is definately needed. Then double track the main also east of farmingdale, or where ever it ends.
Bustitute Greenport? Wow, there's an idea that's just stupid. They've already got 2 cars of bi-levels that, of all the times I've ridden the line, were SRO. Try fitting all that onto buses.
It's simple - the diesels can't go there, which means it's STILL a train change for diesel riders. There's no main line capacity for more trains, and especially not through the Hicksville mainline. There's no 2nd ave subway to absorb ESA riders, either. The existing ESA project is VERY expensive and needs to be thought out. It doesn't make sense right now.
And what is it with you and abandonning the OB past Glen St. I've told you over a dozen times. There are plenty of people who ride east of there.
1/2 the line's grade crossings and most of the hard curves are past there. and no, there's ISN'T much ridership - Oyster Bay station's lot is empty most days, Locust Valley's is too. The ridership is centered around Glen Street, Glen Cove, Glen head, and Roslyn. A simple scan of parking lots will tell you that.
The current diesel engine fleet is shit, agreed. The C3s are good though, except that they cost the LIRR in their being only accesible via high level platforms. LIRR should've just gone with off the shelf for both the cars and the diesels.
Shit is an understatement. IMHO, the DE/DMs should have been returned to EMD for a full refund. The C3 cars are fine, but way too heavy (even by US standards - other comparable cars in the US weigh 20,000 lbs less, yet meet the same FRA standards).
Electrify all that? What's the point? It's useless. It's extra money spent, which could be better spent on other things, and it costs more to maintain. That's even more money wasted.
The point is get rid of the expensive to run, hard to dispatch, expensive to maintain diesels. And, I'm guessing that the LIRR's main thrust behind abandoning virtually every diesel line (save for the PJ which will probbably be next to be electrified) is they looked at what's costing them more per passenger mile, and it's the diesel fleet. I've seen a few estimates of diesel Vs MU operating costs on the LIRR that conclude that the electric fleet is cheaper to operate (which is in line with experience worldwide anyway).
Third track main is definately needed. Then double track the main also east of farmingdale, or where ever it ends.
Doubling the KO line might have advantages years from now. But an all electric Port Jefferson line will likely cost less and achive more in terms of traffic relief.
Bustitute Greenport? Wow, there's an idea that's just stupid. They've already got 2 cars of bi-levels that, of all the times I've ridden the line, were SRO. Try fitting all that onto buses
You've got a better idea for dealing with the high costs for running a low ridership train?
The way I see it, the LIRR blew it's chance in the 90's to stick a fork in their diesel operations, and now it's comming back to bite them in every way. It's pretty obvious looking at the train off list where the big cost per rider is.
West Hempstead's a gonner, no matter what IMHO. I'm amazed it lasted this long - the line hasn't made sense in years.
West Hemstead is nothing but a shuttle line right now....SO either you fix it or get ride of it....
At least using high-platform third-rail-running LRT, you get use out of the existing system.
Yes.
www.freewebs.com/islandtransitli
Ok....so it's a shuttle....so what? Why not extend it to run from Oyster Bay(which is heavily used by reverse commuters as well as decent use for regular direction commuters, atleast from what I've seen, yet however, LIRR wants to abandone) to Far Rockaway(which LIRR wants to end weekend service on). So let's see, that's two lines being threatened with the axe that'd be saved, as well as weekend service on another being saved. All while providing the first intra-island rail service(intra-island meaning within Nassau and Suffolk counties. Yes, I know...Far Rock is Queens....). It's a win win situation.
If you're talking about the line via the central, well, here. In Garden City, the secondary is still there. If those assholes didn't want to deal with trains, why'd they move to the one place they were almost gaurenteed to find them?
As for the rest of the line past the meadowbrook parkway:
1. Through Eisenhower Park, the former ROW is a pathway
2. The entire ROW is still open to B tower(former Bethpage Junction, just south of Bethpage).
The diesels can't go to FBA either. So what? It's one transfer. Not a hard thing to do. And it's not even for everyone.
"1/2 the line's grade crossings and most of the hard curves are past there. and no, there's ISN'T much ridership - Oyster Bay station's lot is empty most days, Locust Valley's is too. The ridership is centered around Glen Street, Glen Cove, Glen head, and Roslyn. A simple scan of parking lots will tell you that. "
And how many times have you ridden the train to Oyster Bay, or even past Glen St?
"The point is get rid of the expensive to run, hard to dispatch, expensive to maintain diesels. And, I'm guessing that the LIRR's main thrust behind abandoning virtually every diesel line (save for the PJ which will probbably be next to be electrified) is they looked at what's costing them more per passenger mile, and it's the diesel fleet. I've seen a few estimates of diesel Vs MU operating costs on the LIRR that conclude that the electric fleet is cheaper to operate (which is in line with experience worldwide anyway). "
I'd like to see the reports
"Doubling the KO line might have advantages years from now. But an all electric Port Jefferson line will likely cost less and achive more in terms of traffic relief. "
An all electric, almost all single track(east of Cold Spring Harbor) PJ line will not do anything to improve the service. It'll be the same mess they've got with the KO line now. The electric just get stuck waiting for another electric to pass. It's a mess. Just double track to PJ.
"You've got a better idea for dealing with the high costs for running a low ridership train? "
Colorado Railcar. They should've gone with these guys for all the diesel operations in the first place.
"West Hempstead's a gonner, no matter what IMHO. I'm amazed it lasted this long - the line hasn't made sense in years."
I'm suprised too.
Here's hoping ... there ARE places where electrification just isn't practical. I'd like to see SOMETHING work. :)
I don't think this automatically kills ESA however. We have to ask how much SAS completion is a prerequsite to using ESA after it has been built. You suggest we should use a deferred ESA dividend to improve capacity on Long Island. Before we do this we have to know if the East River tunnels will impose a constraint on that improved capacity that limits it. Which is the greater bottleneck? The tunnel to Manhattan or the branches on LI and on some of those their slower expensive diesel service? We should be able to compute which order of construction tasks will be most productive.
The MTA says that ESA will increase capacity into Manhattan by almost 50%. The Port Washington line will probably have more than enough capacity. But what about all of the other lines thru Jamaica? Will the bottleneck be in getting to Jamaica or getting from Jamaica to Grand Central or Penn?
Given where most of the riders appear to go now, it seems possible that some money could be saved by building the 8-track station around 55 St instead of going all the way to 42 St. Wasn't there once a proposal to do something like that?
Well....we've been told repeatedly by LIRR that there is no more room at NYP, which is pretty much the only thing I believe from them. So improving LIRR on the island is a waste(unless it's for intra-island rail) until ESA is complete.
"The Port Washington line will probably have more than enough capacity"
Actually....the Port Washington line gets pretty crowded during the rush hour already. They really need to double track east of Great Neck. I know, the trestle. Well, then just double track east of the trestle. It'd definately add capacity to the line. As for worries about a possible bottleneck on the main west of Jam, well....maybe if we had more LIC trains operating via the lower montauk instead of the main then we wouldn't have so much of a problem.
Electric locos have higher Tractive Effort, Higher Horsepower, Higher Efficiency, Lower Noise, Better Traction, and are smoother to boot. An ALP46 starts out with 8000hp (capable of 9000-10000hp short time overload depending on the weather), 80,000lb TE, all on cheap, easy to produce electricity. OTOH, a DM30AC starts out with 4000hp, of which probably 400-600hp is sumped off for HEP, around 45,000lbs TE on a good day, and a noise that'd wake the dead. Electrics accelerate better at high speeds as well, a diesel's TE, and thus acceleration, trails off sharply after the first 25mph or so, after that it's barely pulling, down to 25,000lbs, while an electric can manage 70-60klbs during the same time. Electrics cost only 10-20% more than a diesel these days, but last 25% longer (GG1s, DD1s, Milwaukee electrics anyone). Their components rarely break, unlike a diesel whose prime mover is basically trying to tear itself apart (and occassionally does).
Also a EMU in DC territory is much better than a DMU. A DMU needs a diesel engine, a transmisson (or generator and traction motors), cooling systems, etc etc. A DC EMU just needs a resistor box, controls, and traction motors. It is inevitable that a EMU would last longer than a DMU, witness the MP54s vs the RDC, both were discarded around the same time, but the MP54s soldiered on, often having been in service 30-40 years before the RDCs were built. Diesels are just temporary, electrification is what makes service stick. If LIRR had never electrified then it would have become like so many other operations around the country that were curtailed after the second World War. It was LIRR's electrification that saved it from annihilation in the face of NCL and it's subsidiaries. The fact that you spit on the very thing that allowed it to make it through that era mildly disgusts me.
It seems to me that the excessive cost of capital projects is the key issues. I spent three and a half years as a budget analyst at CPM, and I still can't figure out why it's all so expensive. Having to set up, work briefly, tear down, get out of the way for the next rush hour, then set up again doesn't help, but for the SAS it doesn't apply. Underground construction in Manhattan is hard, but electrifying an existing line shouldn't be.
How did this country manage to build all those electric power lines, railroads, and roads anyway?
Biggest limitation with diesels is how large a diesel generator you can outfit on the locomotive since this is the limitation of how large a set of electric motors you can power. Just in case there's anyone who doesn't fully understand what diesels are about, they're the same as an electric locmotive (DC and recently AC traction motors) and a big generator to make the electricity. Obviously not having to haul the generator around with you on the same train is more efficient, less weight and the limitation of how many traction motors you can mount of X horsepower goes away if you can pick up electric power along the right of way as opposed to having to carry your power plant with you.
However, issues of tractive effort, adhesion and efficiency are a function of how many motors and the gross weight. Obviously you're limited by the capcity of the electric power plant mounted behind you as opposed to one that's somewhere else with long wires connected up instead. But when it comes down to argument over diesel or electric, what hits the iron is pretty much the same - the real issue is do you have the luxury of plugging your train into an electric power plant somewhere ELSE, or do you have to haul it around WITH you. :)
If LIRR had never electrified then it would have become like so many other operations around the country that were curtailed after the second World War. It was LIRR's electrification that saved it from annihilation in the face of NCL and it's subsidiaries.
If that is true why did both METRA and NJT's ex-Erie and CNJ lines survive WW2?
Maybe if they cut enough they won't need the East Side Access, now that would realy save some money !
Now the Montauk, let's be honest, I have yet, other than late evening, Montauk trains have a fairly good level of ridership, not to mention the line has stops at several major colleges in Suffolk that people from the city go to. So I think it wouldn't be in LIRR's best interest to end service on the Montauk line. After 10:00pm, ridership fades off, so cutting night service might work, but again I would leave Montauk service alone. But the MTA is the MTA, and to be honest, they do whatever they want, and pretty much there is nothing anyone can do about it, except grin and bear it if it happens.
"numerous MTA L.I. Bus services that connect to Main Line stations from Oyster Bay branch stations"
Umm...it's actually only 2 buses, the N21 and the N27, both of which terminate in Glen Cove.
"Greenport definitely won't be missed considering 2 trains each way on weekends, both being very low ridership runs, and about 4 on the weekdays, also with not particularly high ridership"
Even though my own experiences with ridership on this line are under fire by people who may not have even ridden this line, I can say with confidence that ridership is far from low. All 3 times I've ridden this line, the train was SRO. Probably b/c it's only 2 cars, but the point is, they were full. And I'm sure you could get more ridership by increasing service, especially to Riverhead.
Even though my own experiences with ridership on this line are under fire by people who may not have even ridden this line, I can say with confidence that ridership is far from low. All 3 times I've ridden this line, the train was SRO. Probably b/c it's only 2 cars, but the point is, they were full.
Well I ride the line almost every day, and I can tell you that it's rare to see the one open car even half-full.
Yeah, but the LIRR brass will say there's no point increasing service because there's so little ridership.
Just one additional train a day could make the Greenport line more useful to many riders. Its main disadvantage is that the last connecting train in the evening rush hour leaves Penn at 5:41, too early for many people. If you work until 5:00, as so many people do, and your workplace is at a location which requires a subway transfer to reach Penn, you're cutting things awfully close. I work until 5:15, just six stops away (Houston St.) on the 1/9, and I've had some close calls. If one more evening train could be added, for example one connecting with the 6:21 from Penn to Ronkonkoma, the line would be more useful to many more people. Of course, this would require an additional trainset, but if the LIRR's serious about wanting to relieve the chaos at Ronkonkoma, it would be a wisely spent amount.
I wouldn't really suggest that on the Greenport train, given its very low ridership.
Perhaps if the LIRR (and other commuter railroads) would invest in some of these type of buses, they could be run on the under-utilized lines at a reduced operating costs.
I know SEPTA tried it in the past and it failed. One of the two buses was stored on the grounds of the Conn. Trolley Museum at Warehouse Point in East Windsor, CT. two years ago. The vehicle also ran on the tracks at Shoreline Trolley Museum in the past.
Perhaps its time to revisit that technology ?
Or any number of other circumstances. I happen to think that is one of the reasons passenger rail lines are being built again in many cities. Covering their bets.
As far as the W.H. branch, it isn't that well situated to be of much use the the larger population base of Long Island if you're thinking about it as a n/s connecter line, including the O.B. branch. I doubt many people would want to ride from, say, Seaford to Valley Stream to Mineola to a bus to R.F. But it would be real good as part of a county-wide, serious rail (light, I think) line. It would be good as the western n/s connecting line, in conjunction with a line from maybe Bellmore to Jericho and a line from Massapequa to Hicksville and Woodbury, along with one from East Farmingdale (connection to the first of Suffolk Countys' n/s lines, the Rt. 110 line) to West Hempstead...
All of the above is just my jaded opinion. It's what I'd like to see.
www.freewebs.com/islandtransitli
Actually, it's more fun with these. : )
And the long Beach Line:
(Island Park)
(the other end was a GP38-2)
(The passenger on the right thought it was pretty cool apparently with the big "double-take").
Is that the farewell trip? I was told that train only ran to the Willowdale Av bridge and not all the way into the PW station cuz it couldn't fit under the canopy.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
Except when people are paying $30-$40 a head for a fantrip....
Island Park
Shea Stadium
Actually, this was an ERA sponsored fantrip back around 1998. It was called "Farewell to the LIRR Diesels", the last fantrip run with the old equipment. It ran from Jamaica to Harold, then to Port Washington, then back to Woodside, then to West Hempstead, then back to Valley, then to Babylon, then back to Lynbrook, then to Island Park, then back to Lynbrook, then to Jamaica and then to LIC via the Montauk Branch, and then I think it ended in Jamaica.
What a day!
I have a lot of photos from that day. One day I will scan some more slides.
Might= The most idiotic thing LIRR can do.
>> A 1330-minute delay is in effect
>> between King Street and Huntington
>> in the direction of Huntington.
>> Unsubscribe: wmata.com/opt_out.cfm
I'd hate to be on that line today, Whew!
The introduction of trailers in the train effectively decreases
the HP/weight ratio and would drop the balancing speed by a few
MPH. Only a few though, because the primary determinant is the
gear & wheel ratio and the traction motor rated speed.
My guestimate is that R1-9 cars and standard Lo-Vs both had a
balancing speed of about 45 MPH. The 1938 World's Fair
Lo-V cars had smaller motors (about 125HP vs 150 for the older
cars) and a higher gear reduction, so it stands to reason their
balancing speed was a bit less.
What do you mean by 'the rest of the fleet' and 'adjusted' ?
I also recall that the arnines did not have the "field shunt"
You are partially correct. On R-9 cars, a tapped field connection
was used rather than an external field shunt. This gave only one
step of weakened field instead of 3 used on R-10 + cars.
I recall being told that everything newer than the R-11's had some sort of adjustments that could be done in the propulsion and grid connections or through "governors" that would control the maximum speed of the cars, and that the cars had been "adjusted" across various car classes for that "top speed" to be 45 MPH. Apparently each car class had different ways of "setting" or "adjusting" this. I have no idea of how the mechanics and electricals were done, this is what I'd been told. And apparently each car class did this differently from others. We were also warned that if we spotted another train with glowing grids, to call it in as it had something to do with a "bad cam."
The issue of the "Local/Express" switch (which were still connected at the time) was how I had learned about "shunting" along with the limitations of running in series for more than a few seconds to "bump it" without "funky smell." I'd been told that the Arnines had no shunting, but if I took out a 40, I wanted to make sure that the Loc/Exp was set correctly and something about an "energy saving switch" that did the same thing.
But at the time I worked there, I didn't much care about any of this - had to many other things to worry about. All these years later, I'm finally interested in all this and since I saw you here, I figured perhaps we could all share something actually on topic for a change. :)
The R-16s OTOH....
To be as "Foamer accurate" as possible - folks don't understand that when you moved into the title of "motorman," YOUR concern was "reading the iron, reading the signals and learning the NUANCES of how to work your train" ... and yeah, "posting the route" so that you KNEW "better slow down BEFORE you enter this curve with greens ahead, because there's a cop behind the billboard with a GT20 from out of NOphuckingwhere." I *remember* the "surprises" on the Brighton as well as CPW ... everything was fat dumb and happy on CPW ... yellows clearing two trainlengths ahead of you. And then SUDDENLY, RED ... STAYS RED ... OH CHIT! CHOW! ... *unless* you knew the railroad and bellowed out the cab window with all that "Lloyd Lindsay Young (ahem), 'style'", "HULLLLOOOOOOOO, 72nd street!" :)
But one of the things that's always amused me to no end here at tubtalk is that there's people who ***STILL*** insist that trains can fly and there is no "STANDARD SPEED" for subway cars that ALL of them (at least today) do on the rails. Gravity MIGHT get you faster before the axle motors have turned into DYNAMICS from GRAVITY, working as "reverse field shunting" ... that's ELECTRICAL reality ... the OLD cars, where COAST meant "OPEN CIRCUIT!" could go faster than "balancing speed" if GRAVITY compensated ... and coast meant "no slowing down owing to motors" ... it was ALL bearing friction, and at that time QUEENS took better care of Arnines than either Concourse or Stillwell did. Seemed BOTH ends of the railroad worked their BUNS off trying to kill them, JUST TO GET RID OF THEM.
But the folks in QUEENS managed to make them HUM ... My *BEST* operating experiences were when I climbed up on a set that said "F CONEY ISLAND/179TH STREET" ... I always REVELLED in the walkthough with 60 rollsigns to be changed, especially if the wire from the shop tags was STILL wrapped around stuff in the cab. I *knew* I had a HAPPY arnine, and probably ten cars with motors. :)
THEN there was the crap that came out of BMT East ... heartbreakers and ABD's all ... Jamaica (BMT) didn't know WHAT to do with arnines, other than cutting wires and sending them somewhere else to get fixed.
Heh.
R16's ... there's one that looks like it's going to come COMPLETELY back to life with every bit of Moxie as Branford's 6688 "B division sister" ... Kingston's been working on the R-16 and she's coming back! Ah, if only they had the MONEY to finish her ... an actual R-16 and in GOOD shape, even with them slanty door panels. :)
wayne
wayne
But YEAH, it's absolutely TRUE ... the *BEST* arnines ran on the E and the F ... and if one happened to end up on the *D* with 10 sets of motors, it'd be as the "leet" say today, "*****BONUS!!!!!*****" :)
But when an F got "resigned throughout" as a D, it was a MUCH happier train than those maintained by STILLWELL ... the ones that were ASSIGNED to Stillwell were ROUTINELY "I think I can, I hope I can, I hope I can, heart attack, heart attack, *CHOW*" ... The ones that went up Brighton from a QUEENS layover made it to 205th. Coinkydink? I think not. (grin)
Bottom line: ROLLSIGN changeover, PARTY TIME! Heh.
Then as you pulled into 125th St. after an exhilirating express dash, it was, whooooo-eeeeeeeeeee!!!!!
Damned shame ... they were really good cars had they been maintained.
The Jamaica cars routinely dusted the competition. Full of life, even in their old age.
wayne
Fortunately, about all I ever cared about was the lead car number - that's what you wrote up. Heh. You might have been on one of my "death trains" ... but with one SINGLE exception, I usually managed to coax them up and over the bridge. From there, it was easy.
Well, that sounds like some schoolcar misinformation, from the
same folks who brought you "Self-lapping Mechanical Electrical
Equipment", or perhaps your hazy memory. To my knowledge, no
such governor circuits ever existed on mainstream NYCTA rolling stock.
We were also warned
that if we spotted another train with glowing grids, to call it in as it had something to do with a "bad cam."
WH cars with Electro-CAM control had a nasty habit of running around
with the dynamic loop stuck on, resulting in constant heavy load
current through the grids even when coasting. It actually had
little to do with the CAM. It was a contactor/interlock problem.
The issue of the "Local/Express" switch (which were still connected at the time) was how I had
learned about "shunting" along with the limitations of running in series for more than a few
seconds to "bump it" without "funky smell." I'd been told that the Arnines had no shunting, but if I
took out a 40, I wanted to make sure that the Loc/Exp was set correctly and something about an
"energy saving switch" that did the same thing.
AFAIK the first use of "ENERCON" was ca 1984 with the rebuilding
of the Flushing fleet. A LOCAL/EXPRESS toggle switch was mounted
in the cab. At no time was the LOC/EXP end sign changeover switch
involved in this. I seriously doubt that the position of that
switch affected the operation of R-40 equipment, pre-GOH.
One of these days though, would like to hear the REAL skinny ...
wayne
Too bad the R-10s had helical cut gears. Who knows what pitch that F train with 3080 as the north motor would have hit.
wayne
That R-10 F must have already been really moving past Van Wyck if it managed to blast past Sutphin Blvd. fast enough to reduce it to a blur.
I wonder if someone simply miscalculated the amount of horsepower needed to move such a heavy subway car as the BMT standard at a decent speed.
No disrepect intended to Jerry's memory, but, railfans were notorious
for having strong opinions about things such as top speeds that
were based on perception rather than fact.
The balancing speed for R-1 through 9 cars should be specified in
the actual contract book. I don't have a copy...perhaps someone here
does. Be it 45 or 48 MPH, it seems like a fairly minor point.
It also mentioned that the D types had only a slightly higher horsepower to weight ratio.
Quite a bit higher. The weight of a D unit is comparable to a pair
of 67' standards. One difference is the D-types have motor trucks
and trailer trucks, while the ABs have trucks with one motor axle
and one trailer axle. A D unit is 137' long, i.e. the length of
two Standards. It has 4 motors of 190 HP (I think, maybe 200?)
whereas two Standards have 4x140 HP. The Standards were amazingly
under-powered.
Is there any source anywhere were I can obtain the balancing
speeds of the Lo-V's?.
Perhaps in some of the articles that surrounded the first Lo-V cars
in 1914-1915, such as in the Electric Railway Journal. Why is
the exact value so important? Building a BVE model?
The SMEEs certainly had faster acceleration, 2.5 MPH/sec vs
1.75 for the Lo-Vs (and even more of a difference with trailers
factored in). The SMEEs had a slight HP advantage but with
gearing the balancing speed probably was within a few MPH, i.e.
not really enough of a difference to discern accurately from
anecdotal evidence.
That's because field shunting is disabled. The control for the
DC motors is roughly proportional to speed. At low speeds,
it is in series points, then transition to parallel at about 8-12
MPH, then at 16-20 MPH, there are three weak field positions.
Since those positions are disabled, there is a sharp fall-off
of torque/tractive effort above that speed range. On level track,
the TE demand is small enough that acceleration still results,
but add a few percent grade and all of a sudden the balance speed
becomes a pitiful 18 MPH.
IIRC, the R9s had similar numbers in terms of MPH for series/parallel
and weak field points. They have fewer resistance notches and
only one weak field notch, vs 3 for "SMEE" cars.
I may have to take a job somewhere in Nassau County. I might not be able to work in Manhattan anymore. I can't afford the commute.
Robert
Heheeheeheehehehee..... (ROFLMAO)
Cars are EXPENSIVE! Much more expensive than riding the train at even twice the price it is now!
We figure .35 a mile to run our cars. (Cost, Amortization, Maint, Repairs, Fuel, Insurcance, License, etc, etc...)
Add to that tolls and parking in the city.
Heck tolls and parking come to more than $20.00 / day for some commuters. Even single full fares on the train are cheaper than that!
Prices are going up, fuel is going up, if not for your car, then for the power plants that propel the trains... And they blast the VP for talking to oil men about energy policy. Who *can* he talk to? Farmers? Butchers? Environmentalists?... They ain't going to provide you with fuel!
Prices are going up, and we all have to pay for it. That's Life. Get One!
: ) Elias
We figure .35 a mile to run our cars. (Cost, Amortization, Maint, Repairs, Fuel, Insurcance, License, etc, etc...)
Add to that tolls and parking in the city.
Heck tolls and parking come to more than $20.00 / day for some commuters. Even single full fares on the train are cheaper than that!"
That's one reason I don't own a car. You couldn't PAY me to own a car (actually, I did have a car in early 1996, but got into a major accident with it about a week after I got it which caused it to be totaled, but that story is for another forum) anymore. I'll take public transit anyday.
Be glad you don't have to get auto insurance from NJ. The rates alone are high enough, even for good drivers with no points/tickets/claims within the last three years.
Koi
Seriously, it would be a serious fare increase that would justify owning a car and driving in the city. Once Mr. Mitch calms down and looks at the figures, he'll do the right thing and ask for a raise. :P
Your pal,
Fred
No sympathy from Brooklyn. Twenty years ago my wife backed out of the driveway and dented someone's fender. Twelve years ago I got a ticket for failing to come to a complete stop at a flashing red light. That's it -- EVER -- in (for me) 27 years of driving. My insurance on a seven year old Saturn Wagon with no collision or theft, just liability? $1,400 from the cheapest company around.
That's actually not too terrible, considering some of the horror stories I've heard about insurance rates in the city ($4,000+ for some drivers). The profits these companies must be making are obscene.
First, what makes you thing that their profits are obscene? There expenses are obscene too!
But the issue you saw that was stated above: "I've heard about insurance rates in the city ($4,000+ for some drivers)." bites at the nub of the issue.
Only *car owners* are required to buy insurance, but this in my opinion is wrong. Each DRIVER ought to have his or her own liability policy. This spreads the rate base over a much larger population than just "car owners". Back in the old days, (that is even to this day) liability is attached to property ownership, rather than to your personal actions. The rational is to protect your propert from seizure to pay a liability judgment against you. So the poor, with no property to seize do not bother with liability insurance, for no matter how great a judgment agains them might be, it is just tough nuggies on them, 'cause they ain't geting squat from them.
This is why taxi cab companies (on paper at least) only own two vehicles. Enough to get a "fleet rate" but not enough value to purchase an outragious liability policy. "What you win 2M$ from me, too bad, all I got is these two taxi cabs: here are the keys to them. bye!"
To bring insurance rates down, and to put the onus where it belongs, on the driver, each driver should be required to buy a liability policy as the price of getting a license. If you are a scuzzy driver, then only your rate goes up. If you have too many DUIs your rates go so high that you will surrender your license rather than to pay the piper, and the state won't even have to take you to court to do it.
But it spreads the costs among all drivers rather than to "car owners" so what was a $4000 policy for 1/4 of the drivers becomes a $1000 policy on all of the drivers.
And it is fair. At the moment, I do not own any cars, but I drive a car many times a week. It is not *my* car but what the heck. But I pay no insurance. Yet, I would under my plan. Yes, I still think it is fair, even though I'd have to pay for a policy.
Car owners should insure their cars: against fire, theft, collision and loss, but all drivers ought to pay for a liability policy. After all it is the driver who makes a stoopit mistake while driving, it is not the fault of the automobile.
Elias
There are other issues -- fraud and no fault and fraud.
Brooklyn is home to organized crime rings sucking money out of the car insurance industry with staged accidents and inflated medical claims. So there are a lot of costs sloshing around for someone to cover.
Many drivers drive uninsured, but their liability claims are covered by an uninsured motorist surcharge that everyone in Kings County has to pay.
With all those costs attached to the county, many Brooklyn residents register their cars elsewhere, leaving all those costs to be covered by those who (like myself) tell the truth about where they live.
Despite the high prices, my guess is that the rate of actual personal injury is lower in Brooklyn than elsewhere, due to lower speeds. Instead, there are a lot of false burdens divided among a small number of honest drivers.
Ever WONDER why upstate's so sour? PLEASE choose better in NOVEMBER! I thought we was *ALL* New Yorkers. YOUR porkers are giving it to *US* up here where there AIN'T no insurance claims with JEWLER'S ROUGE so they get re-elected down THERE. :(
SERIOUSLY, I pay more taxes than I make ... for FOUR YEARS STRAIGHT now ... I owe $12,000 more than I ever *HAD*. :(
PHUCKING REPUBLICANS. :(
Workers Comp insurance is another story. There the argument can be made that upstaters subsidize downstaters and vice versa. The data doesn't exist to prove or disprove either.
CG
It sounds as if the insurance companies should be more aggressive about investigating these false claims. Problem is, they might just find it cheaper to pay the false claims, and simply raise rates for everyone else.
Exactly. It's often more profitable to deny and litigate legitiimate claims than false ones. I begin to feel the whole insurance world is one big scam.
Remember when no-fault insurance was touted as a way of bringing lower rates and less red tape? Har-dee-har-har.
Here's a lesson in the NY no-fault law.
Person fakes accident or is involved in a staged accident. Notifies their insurance company. They then make themselves impossible to get hold of (give an incorrect phone number, never return calls). Over the next 80 days the person and those who were in the car with him get all sorts of chiropractic and other medical care. The providers bill these services at obscene rates. 88 days after the accident, the person's attorney faxes all of the bills for medical care to the insurance company.
By law, the insurance company must either deny the claim or pay all bills submitted within 90 days of the date of the accident. If they don't pay, intrest accrues on the bills at the rate of 2% PER MONTH (retro to the date of care)!!! So the insurance carrier has 2 days to either determine fraud and deny the claim or pay it to avoid the interest charges. If they deny it, but are then unable to PROVE fraud (not just allege fraud, or show that there was probably fraud, but PROVE it) they are subject to a Bad Faith Claim Lawsuit. The person alleges that they were harmed and emotionally distressed by the insurer claiming they were acting fraudulently. These suits, if successful (and they usually are -- there's not much of a defense for an insurer who denies an ultimately viable claim) often generate awards in the high 6 figure range.
It's a catch-22 for the insurers. Either you pay a $20,000 claim you think is fraudulent -- or you deny it and risk ultimately paying millions later if you can't prove fraud.
CG
What a disgusting situation. I'd say it's one of those only-in-New-York sob stories, but it's probably true in other states as well. And it could become national policy under President John "Shyster" Edwards, if Bush loses in November and Kerry's next Botox injection goes awry.
The NY Insurance Department doesn't help Brooklynites any because they make it so difficult to increase rates. As a result, whenever a company gets to a point where they think they're making money and then claim experience continues to improve they are reluctant to decrease rates. This is because they know the Insurance Department will give them a hard time when they need to raise rates in the future.
Hardly. At my prior employer, we had a client that sold Auto Insurance in NYC and Long Island. 75% of their business was in Brooklyn and Queens. In two years (1998-1999) they took in $65 million in premium. Paid claims on those policies were ultimately over $200 million.
LOL, thats McGreedy for ya. What a mistake electing him. I hope when he leave New Jersey guys won't have to pay as many taxes.
-Broadway Buffer
-Broadway Buffer
As ridership declined in the 1950's, the LIRR kept raising fares and cutting service, which further depressed ridership, which again caused budget problems, and so on. If not for the creation of the MTA in the late 1960's, which created an infusion of cash from the moneymaking entities (TBTA) to the money losers, the LIRR may have gone out of business altogether.
AEM7
One GNER is enough, thanx . . .
Jul 29, 2004 3:31 pm US/Eastern
NEW YORK (AP) A House committee has quietly stripped away $40 million intended to pay for moving Pennsylvania Station's train service into the historic James A. Farley post office building, allotting the money instead to the East Side Access project.
The federal funding, which has sat unused for several years while officials worked to build up a train station in the historic Farley building across Eighth Avenue, was originally obtained by the late Democratic Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan.
Moynihan worked for years to create a huge rail hub inside a more architecturally impressive building than the basement under Madison Square Garden, where Penn Station is now located.
Just before leaving Washington last week, the House Appropriations Committee approved an annual budget that rescinds $40 million set aside by Moynihan in 2000 to pay for moving Amtrak and other rail lines into the Farley building.
The money instead would go to building a rail link connecting the Long Island Rail Road to Grand Central Terminal, a plan usually referred to as East Side Access.
Moynihan's daughter, Maura Moynihan, said she was angry about the planned switch.
"As my father said, this project is a big fat white porpoise in a sea of sharks," she said.
Her father "spent over a decade fighting for this day in and day out, and to see it neglected and squandered means the people of New York are being cheated," she said.
The Moynihan Station project has also encountered resistance from Amtrak, the nation's financially precarious passenger rail service.
Amtrak owns its site at Penn Station, but would be expected to pay millions of dollars a year in rent at the Farley building.
The Empire State Development Corporation insisted Thursday the project is moving forward, having just initiated the bidding process for work at the Farley building, with or without Amtrak's support.
"The Moynihan project is going forward, and it has the support of the (Metropolitan Transportation Authority) and New Jersey Transit," said ESDC spokeswoman Deborah Wetzel.
"We feel it's an important project to New York in terms of jobs and the economy of the region," she said.
It was not clear Thursday who in the House was responsible for redirecting the funds from Penn Station to Grand Central Terminal.
The bill still awaits a full House vote, and conference negotiations between the House and Senate, giving New York officials time to lobby on behalf of the Moynihan project.
A deal for the state to buy the post office and convert it into a transit hub was announced in October 2002. At the time, officials said the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey had committed $145 million to buy the building, and that the rest of the money needed for the project would come from state bonds, Amtrak, the Metropolitan Transportation Authority and private sources.
Tony Bullock, a former chief of staff to the senator, said removing even relatively small amounts of money from the project is dangerous.
"Money for this project is a quilt, and if you take away one piece of it, then nothing can happen," Bullock said.
I've always thought that this useless slab of pork was a blot on Sen. Moynihan's name that he would not have voted for himself.
CG
When Madison Square Garden is moved again we should build a new Penn Station. There are other projects that need to be done and moving Penn Station west is not one of them. Not to mention that few commuters would be happy with spending millions of dollars to be less close to where they want to go.
The platforms are not moving. The trains are staying right where they are. The LIRR concourse, and probably also the NJT concourse will stay right where they are.
I understand that the new facility is to be the Amtrak waiting room and station and stuff. Have you ever gone up to the LIRR exits west of eighth avenue? Leave the Penn Station area towards the 8th Avenue subway, walk under the subway, and then up and to your left is the western most exits from the LIRR terminal. You are already under the Farley Building (almost... under the steps anyway...) Now walk as far south as you can go on this little concourse (which IIRC still had original Penn Station iron work into the 70s or later) and then look to the west. You will see the lower track numberd platforms right slab dab under the Farley Building.
Moving the AMTK station there makes sense, it does not affect the LIRR at all, and gives NJT more space, and it gives AMTK a real waiting room which it does not have now.
Elias
The LIRR West End Concourse runs under the sidewalk on the west side of 8th Avenue (and probably under the southbound local 8th Avenue track as well -- I'll pace it off the next time I'm there.). It is not under the Farley building.
CG
If the House has $400 million lying around, give it to the MTA so the deficit can be reduced and I can afford to get to work every day.
I see no reason why Federal Money needs to be spent on local railroad stations. Yes, a new station is needed, yes more space in needed, so spend some money and build it. But 400 Mil is NOT a large sum, and there is no reason not to spend it there.
Yes MTA has big deficits again, what they need is more STATE funding, and perhaps fare increases. Look, we pay $50.00 for a round trip from here to Bismarck by car (75 miles x .35 etc... figure it out), you cannot drive to the city for what you are paying on the train. (Esp when you add the tolls and parking!) Sheesh! Pay your share. life is expensive, but that's what you earn money for.
Elias
Yup. That be the place.
: ) Elias
That's my fantasy too.
Given what PRR spent in the early 20th Century, what would it cost in 2004 dollars to bring it back?
I note that the State of Maryland spent 50 Million Dollars to bring the Hippodrome Theatre back to her glory. A 21st Century showplace was created with the Hipp as the crown jewel. It was money well spent. The project did have the hulk of the 1911 building to start with. At least it wasn't razed like Penn Station was.
I think it's about time that the new garden be called Madison CUBE Garden.
Yes, but AMTK already owns a perfectly good station at NYP, and has no need to pay for better or different.
That NYP is over crowded, inefficient, and needs expansion is not an AMTK problem per se. Yet if "we" build them a new station in the Farley Building, then "we" get a new place for NJT to use. Another Hudson tube or two would not hurt either, but that is a big tag item.
Elias
What Idiots...
Yes.
Why not just extend it from GCT, to NYP, under west side highway, under fulton St, under the east, and over to flatbush. There's a loop, and both LIRR GCT and LIRR NYP trains can use it.
July 29, 2004, 4:42 PM EDT
WASHINGTON -- A House committee has quietly stripped away $40 million intended to pay for moving Pennsylvania Station's train service into the historic James A. Farley post office building, allotting the money instead to the East Side Access project.
The federal funding, which has sat unused for several years while officials worked to build up a train station in the historic Farley building across Eighth Avenue, was originally obtained by the late Democratic Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan.
Moynihan worked for years to create a huge rail hub inside a more architecturally impressive building than the basement under Madison Square Garden, where Penn Station is now located.
Just before leaving Washington last week, the House Appropriations Committee approved an annual budget that rescinds $40 million set aside by Moynihan in 2000 to pay for moving Amtrak and other rail lines into the Farley building.
The money instead would go to building a rail link connecting the Long Island Rail Road to Grand Central Terminal, a plan usually referred to as East Side Access.
Moynihan's daughter, Maura Moynihan, said she was angry about the planned switch.
"As my father said, this project is a big fat white porpoise in a sea of sharks," she said.
Her father "spent over a decade fighting for this day in and day out, and to see it neglected and squandered means the people of New York are being cheated," she said.
The Moynihan Station project has also encountered resistance from Amtrak, the nation's financially precarious passenger rail service.
Amtrak owns its site at Penn Station, but would be expected to pay millions of dollars a year in rent at the Farley building.
The Empire State Development Corporation insisted Thursday the project is moving forward, having just initiated the bidding process for work at the Farley building, with or without Amtrak's support.
"The Moynihan project is going forward, and it has the support of the (Metropolitan Transportation Authority) and New Jersey Transit," said ESDC spokeswoman Deborah Wetzel.
"We feel it's an important project to New York in terms of jobs and the economy of the region," she said.
It was not clear Thursday who in the House was responsible for redirecting the funds from Penn Station to Grand Central Terminal.
The bill still awaits a full House vote, and conference negotiations between the House and Senate, giving New York officials time to lobby on behalf of the Moynihan project.
A deal for the state to buy the post office and convert it into a transit hub was announced in October 2002. At the time, officials said the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey had committed $145 million to buy the building, and that the rest of the money needed for the project would come from state bonds, Amtrak, the Metropolitan Transportation Authority and private sources.
Tony Bullock, a former chief of staff to the senator, said removing even relatively small amounts of money from the project is dangerous.
"Money for this project is a quilt, and if you take away one piece of it, then nothing can happen," Bullock said.
Copyright © 2004, Newsday, Inc.
Is a piddling sum, and will not derail the project.
Elias
Hayos
The page cannot be displayed
The page you are looking for is currently unavailable. The Web site might be experiencing technical difficulties, or you may need to adjust your browser settings.
etc.
I thought the site was down.
Same thing Wednesday morning.
It was fine at work all day Wed.
Got home, tried to upload photos, couldn't reach the site. I emailed John (webmaster) and he said the site was up and there was nothing from his end keeping me off.
I put the photos onto a cd and uploaded them from work Thurs morning.
At home I still can't get on.
I've dumped cookies (pain in the butt; now I have to re-register everywhere), rebooted several times.
Any suggestions?
I don't connect whether I type in the url, click on the Favorites listing, or click on a url from a post. Same result.
The values below are total entries only for all mezzanines in a station. Please do not ask for exit totals (they are generally similar to entry totals). I have included some notes on the side of the numbers for reference.
1. Union Station 32,653 (Busiest station in DC)
2. Metro Center 28,450
3. Farragut North 25,300
4. Farragut West 23,874
5. DuPont Circle 22,514
6. L'Enfant Plaza 22,285
7. Foggy Bottom-GWU 19,316
8. Gallery Place 16,433
9. McPherson Square 16,177
10. Rosslyn 16,065 (Busiest station in VA/Arlington County)
11. Pentagon City 15,833
12. Pentagon 15,377
13. Crystal City 13,722
14. Shady Grove 13,100 (Busiest station in Maryland/Montgomery County)
15. Smithsonian 12,915
16. Vienna 12,854 (Busiest station in Fairfax County)
17. Silver Spring 12,464
18. Ballston 11,620
19. Judicuary Square 10,952
20. Federal Triangle 10,915
21. New Carrollton 9,586 (Busiest station in PG County)
22. Bethesda 9,430
23. Friendship Heights 9,310
24. Franconia-Springfield 9,265
25. West Falls Church 8,584
26. Archives 8,578
27. Huntington 8,501
28. Capitol South 7,907
29. Woodley Park-Zoo 7,492
30. Court House 7,317
31. Greenbelt 7,150
32. Anacostia 7,036
33. King Street 6,971 (Busiest station in City of Alexandria)
34. Van Ness-UDC 6,923
35. Tenleytown-AU 6,511
36. Brookland-CUA 6,303
37. Fort Totten 6,236
38. Takoma 6,161
39. Suitland 6,122
40. Branch Avenue 6,032
41. Columbia Heights 6,009
42. Southern Avenue 5,770
43. Rhode Island Avenue 5,704
44. Addison Road 5,603
45. Glenmont 5,578
46. Eastern Market 5,132
47. Medical Center 5,091
48. National Airport 5,044
49. Dunn Loring 5,001
50. Prince Georges Plaza 4,630
51. Cleveland Park 4,582
52. U Street 4,513
53. Twinbrook 4,506
54. Wheaton 4,498
55. Federal Center SW 4,380
56. Georgia Avenue 4,262
57. White Flint 4,172
58. Rockville 4,163
59. Braddock Road 4,054
60. East Falls Church 4,018
61. Grosvenor 4,013
62. Van Dorn Street 3,683
63. Shaw-Howard Univ 3,498
64. West Hyattsville 3,434
65. Landover 3,424
66. College Park-U of MD 3,381
67. Mount Vernon Square 3,377
68. Clarendon 3,359
69. Waterfront-SEU 3,275
70. Potomac Avenue 3,247
71. Minnesota Avenue 3,158
72. Virginia Square-GMU 3,135
73. Navy Yard 3,132
74. Naylor Road 3,092
75. Benning Road 3,052
76. Stadium-Armory 2,939
77. Congress Heights 2,227
78. Forest Glen 2,089
79. Capitol Heights 1,956
80. Deanwood 1,914
81. Eisenhower Avenue 1,788
82. Arlington Cemetery* 1,644
83. Cheverly 1,560
*-Arlington Cemetery station closes at 10 PM during the summer and 7 pM during the winter. All other stations have at least one open mezzanine at all times though some mezzanines close earlier than others.
Greenbelt itself is busier than Branch Avenue and the entire southern Green Line, yet it's the Southern Green that needs more trains per hour? Weird.
Ballston seems to have done a complete 180 since it opened. IIRC, Ballston was very light in use when it opened, compared to New Carrollton, hence the reason Blue and Orange were mixed up back then. And I find it somewhat disturbing that there's actually a station less used than Arlington Cemetery, and even more disturbing is that it's Cheverly, which is on the once heavily used MD end of the Orange Line (then again, Vienna-Fairfax is busier than New Carrollton itself).
East Falls Church beats your home station by FIVE passengers daily... 1: I figured Grosvenor's close proximity to the Beltway and I-270 generated a lot more ridership (hence the reason it's a terminal to this day), and 2: That is quite a low margin of difference.
Odd that the downtown stations all have such high ridership EXCEPT FCSW. Very odd indeed. L'Enfant Plaza isn't as highly used as I figured it to be; I'd had it pegged at just under Metro Center in terms of usage.
National Airport doesn't seem to be as much of a draw as it originally was. Wonder why that is.
Rockville's riderhip is VERY out of place. I'd have figured it to be able to match ridership figures with New Carrollton and Shady Grove, not be less used than even Medical Center.
Greenbelt is 31st with 7150 passengers per day on average. All the stations from Branch Avenue to Waterfront inclusive definately bring in more than 7150 passengers combined. I'm up to 13158 just by adding Suitland and Anacostia together, the highest two on the Branch Avenue line, and that is more than Greenbelt.
Cheverly has never been a heavy use station. Arlington Cemetery had almost 97 entires per weekday hour that it was open during May. Cheverly has about 82 and Eisenhower has about 94. Deanwood has almost 101.
I wasn't aware that Grosvenor was my home station. I'm rather pleased to say my station had about 5297 more passengers than Grosvenor and ranks 23rd overall, just beating out Franconia-Springfield and its huge parking garage by 45 people (Maryland defeats Virginia yet again!!!). Maybe we can beat out Bethesda once all the damned overdevelopment is finished around my station. As for Grosvenor, I will admit that I contributed to its average of 4013 entries per day a number of times throughout the month of May. Its ridership numbers should be boosted by the new garage that just opened there in the past month. The fact that Grosvenor is still used as a terminal has nothing to do with its ridership but rather the availability of rail cars.
There isn't a whole lot around Federal Center SW. I've never used it in my life as far as I can recall. Maybe that is why its ridership is so low.
No idea about National Airport, though I do know it beats out Dulles for now ;-)
Rockville is definately not used as much as Shady Grove, but the fact it comes after Twinbrook (as does White Flint) is a bit surprising to me.
As much as you mention Grosvenor, I thought it was your home station...
Grosvenor and ranks 23rd overall, just beating out Franconia-Springfield and its huge parking garage by 45 people (Maryland defeats Virginia yet again!!!)
Har har har... didn't Rosslyn, both Pentagon stops, and Crystal City beat everything else outside of DC?
No idea about National Airport, though I do know it beats out Dulles for now ;-)
That it does... Indeed, that it does. I wonder exactly how well used the Airport station itself will be compared to the rest of that route... Dulles isn't necessarily as close to DC as National Airport is (in fact, it's not close at all; it took us an hour to get from Reston to Vienna-Fairfax (which didn't have the suffix yet), and Dulles Int'l Airport is past Reston).
Still, it's odd that the former end terminal of the heaviest part of the Blue Line (so heavy that WMATA chose to run trains based on ridership on the non-shared segments instead of by what color was supposed to use them when Orange and Blue both had distinct end terminals of their own) seems to be so little used by comparison... maybe it was just highly used for its time.
I wonder what figures NY Ave, Morgan Boulevard, and Largo will have when they open...
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Don't know about Vienna... is that with or without Hunter's Branch lots?
Station All day Short Term Metered Total
Shady Grove 5467 76 0 5543
Franconia-Springfield 5100 117 0 5217
Vienna 3643 71 17 3731
Greenbelt 3364 201 0 3565
Branch Avenue 3072 150 0 3222
Huntington 3090 32 0 3122
Southern Ave 1980 175 0 2155
New Carrollton 1980 97 20 2097
Landover 1866 14 0 1880
Glenmont 1781 69 0 1850
Grosvenor 1800 0 18 1818
Dunn Loring 1319 36 0 1355
Addison Road 1268 50 0 1318
Wheaton 977 35 250 1262
PG Plaza 1068 56 112 1236
West Falls Church 1062 53 68 1183
Anacostia 808 15 325 1148
Twinbrook 1098 38 0 1136
White Flint 982 40 0 1022
Silver Spring 0 44 716 760
Rockville 524 22 121 667
Forest Glen 596 49 13 658
College Park 530 90 0 620
West Hyattsville 453 41 110 604
Cheverly 530 27 0 557
Fort Totten 408 37 0 445
East Falls Church 422 20 0 442
Van Dorn Street 361 46 0 407
Naylor Road 368 20 0 388
Capitol Heights 373 14 0 387
Rhode Island Avenue 340 40 0 380
Minnesota Avenue 323 20 0 343
Takoma 0 146 146 292
Deanwood 194 0 0 194
Congress Heights 0 66 0 66
King Street 0 30 0 30
Brookland 0 27 0 27
Tenleytown 0 17 0 17
Medical Center 0 14 0 14
Braddock Road 0 10 0 10
Mark
-Chris
And where is this place again? Is it inside the Staten Island Mall?
-Chris
Potable means drinkable. Drinking water on the track level is available at Penn Sta?
The *trains* drink the water. Used in rest rooms, in dining and club cars. Even in the Minot station there are water hoses up and down the platform for servicing passenger cars. (Minot is a service stop... check it out on the timetable.)
Locomotives are also fueled, but even if the host RR has a supply, AMTK usually gets their fuel from a waiting fuel truck provided by their own vendor.
Elias
There might be a cistern someplace where the runoff from rain is stored or from a well that is drawing water from ground water that is not potable.
John
Who says those signs are recent? I remember them back in the early 60s.
But they are Railroad signs, and while non-potable water might never have been present in Penn Station, it certainly was available throughout the railroad system. (Think Boiler Water for your Steam Engines). There is probably a RULE stating that only water identified as "Potable Water" can be used in passenger cars.
Elias
Actually, we *do* have "Raw Water" piped in hereabouts. Water is drawn into the system from Lake Sakakawea (North Dakota spelling) and piped about 100 miles to Dickinson where it is treated and then piped to communities throughout South Western North Dakota.
Farms and Ranches can buy either "Treated Water" or "Raw Water" depending on their needs.
Penn Station will also have "Fire Water" systems throughout the building, and the fire hoses are certainly NOT potable since it comes from a different system, and because the aux roof tanks are not inspected nor treated. I'll bet you there *are* Fire Hoses on the track level as well.
Elias
Needless to say, around 5PM, trains were running express again to Main St.
Doesn't MTA at least have a website coordinator who makes notes of these changes?
The real SLE train
And an Amtrak Boston bound with 2 locomotives.
Your pal,
Fred
Your pal,
Fred
I breathe a sigh of relief as half of the crunched passengers detrain at 5 Av. 53rd, and the rest of the bulk gets off at Lex. Our train is almost empty on the way to Queens.
In addition, when you enter the system to the C and E uptown, there's a yellow sign that says "RESTRICTED AREA. Do not stand from 8am-9:30a." But the situation is beyond my control as the platform is literally filled with waiting commuters. No one is budging, and it's like you're stuck in a rat trap right after you pass the turnstiles. The 8:06a E train comes, as I ready to board, however, the train is totally full, and there is no way to get into the train. I hopelessly wait for the 8:12a.
Is there anything the MTA can do to relieve this horrible congestion? It's evident that all of these people are either going to 5 Av. or Lex. I think a shuttle to these stops is possible, but not plausible.
There's also the V at Herald Sq. Walk thru Penn station and to 6 Av.
ESA would definitely help this overcrowding but what about spillover from ESA on to the East Side IRT? SAS could help but the SAS portion involving a connection to GCT is phase III and to get on the SAS a transferee from ESA would have to pass the IRT. Ideally upper east side passengers from phase I will take the SAS. Would phase II or phase II be completed by the time ESA opens?
Pray that nothing stops the trains from moving along.
You're right: it's an interesting idea, and its *-possible-* , but it will never happen at the TA.
10-car trains could operate with operators on both ends from the middle track at 30th via A4/D4 to north of Lex/53 and then change ends. They'd be plugging the A to make the move at 30th, and E/V to reverse at Lex. Plus you'd have to pay a Tower Operator for 30th.
You'd be less obtrusive turning the trains at Queens Plaza on the middle track, but you'd be running longer.
The single biggest problem would be getting people off the trains at Lex NB and 34th SB before turning them. The TA won't relay a train with people on it, and it would plug the rest of the road to empty out the trains. To me, it would be worth seeing the looks on people's faces after their trains reverse and come back into the same stations...but that's just me.
We also must think of the number of commuters that would benefit from this project in terms of those who a project would inconvenience. The SAS FEIS says that 138,000 commuters enter Manhattan below 60 St by rail from Queens. Not all of those are headed for the East Side. How many riders would be negatively affected by the costly shuttle operation that limits service for people paying the same fare? The same source says 439,000 riders enter from Manhattan below 60 St on the subway. Some of those are LIRR riders especially on the E from Jamaica Center and on the 7 from Woodside and Hunterspoint Av. This suggests the F should switch Queens terminals with the E but that's another issue.
Should NYC riders be inconvenienced that much by riders who pay the same amount as them on the subway and who dislike having their LIRR trains make stops in NYC? Our policy should be a decent commute for everyone. ESA offers that promise if completed in conjunction with the SAS.
An alternate solution would be to route half the northbound V trains via 8th Ave.
Colorado Railcar also has several other possible customers.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Cost per passenger mile can be quickly eclipsed by availability at all times. If FRA DMUs (single-level) were running on the "River Line" instead of the DLRVs, then freights could operate at all times of day and passenger trains could operate at all times of day. Not to mention that there would have been no need to build a whole new station at Trenton, what with the FRA DMU being able to use the existing NEC platforms at Trenton and thus enabling a cross-platform transfer with NJT NEC EMUs instead of having to fight one's way through the station and crossing streets. (There would also be the possibility of through-DMU service between Camden and Hoboken.)
It runs off 1500vdc, so all you have to do is beef up the wires to handle the higher amperage 750vdc...
There's even an AC version
Course these are european designs and the FRA would have none of that sensible stuff! But it shows that it can be done, and indeed has been done for the past few years now. It requires no great electrical engineering know-how to figure out that higher frequency AC traction transformers are smaller than low frequency ones, and as such you could stick some components in the right place on the catenary feed to bump the frequency from 25hz to 400hz and then route that through a small transformer located wherever there is spare room.
Modern power electronics have reduced the strain on the designers of self-propelled railcars, no longer are high platforms, high floors, or level floors a requirement, you can be much more flexible in the design phase of a car now. I just can't understand why Europe seems to grasp this, yet the US is still copying 40 year old EMU designs, the M7 and Silverliner 5 are so far just MOS, why not break the mold with the tools provided to us by power electronics and make cars better adapted to the system, rather than adapting the system to meet the cars?
For example, how about this concept I developed for a Silverliner 5: http://www.pages.drexel.edu/~wld25/Silverliner5plan.GIF
As you can see, doors are located on both levels so as to avoid the need for traps and all the inconvenience they bring. Some seats are sacrificed for the added doors, as well as a small internal elevator to move wheelchair bound passengers from one level to the other. I just copied and pasted some stuff off a Bombardier Bilevel somebody else made to create this Married Triplet EMU, the idea is that most HVAC, traction, and other equipment is carried in the roof blister, allowing for a very low floor. This car would make high-platforming projects like the MTA's and that underway by SEPTA and NJT unneccesary. You achieve level boarding at all stations as soon as you can get the car on the property, your passengers climb stairs internally, free of ice, water and mud (as traps have been known to be). I think it's perfectly suited to SEPTA and NJT, at least the Hoboken Division, as well as any future electric operations by Metra, MBTA, Shoreline East, or MARC, thanks in part to modern electronics.
They can be upgraded to meet FRA specs.
"As you can see, doors are located on both levels so as to avoid the need for traps and all the inconvenience they bring. Some seats are sacrificed for the added doors, as well as a small internal elevator to move wheelchair bound passengers from one level to the other"
Wait...these are all my ideas that I've been whoring around for a few years now.....oh well....whether you just took the idea, or you did have the same idea for me, atleast we agree on a basic design.
I think this design would've worked well on LIRR as well....both as 3rd rail electrics and as push pulls.
I suspect, of course, that if there were still a majority of low platforms that they would "order" the MTA to convert them to high platforms for "safety" reasons . . . and, like the ICC "ordered" the 79 mph speed limit for main lines with CTC only back in 1950, they would give no money for upgrades/conversions. (Don't it make ya wanna upchuck . . . ?)
Looks like they're 85 feet over the coupler faces, 15'10" high from the railhead to the roof, with a minimum pantograph height of 16'4". Of course the pantograph figure is for a 1500vdc system. A 3rd rial powered version for LIRR (sans pan) might have problems in the East River tunnels even if they'll clear the 6 inches between the cat and the roof of the car, since the AC cat will be more prone to jump and ground through the carbody.
IMHO, though, a slightly chop-topped version of the Metra Electric MUs would suffice for the LIRR . . .
Most likely it would have to be early in the morning, we'll meet at St. George terminal by the turnstiles at 10:00am or something. Although later might make sense. The trip would probably have to take place on a weekend, due to peoples jobs, but remember, TPH levels on the SIR are bad enough on the weekdays. I really hope that we can do this, and it would probably almost as fun as MOD trip! Please discuss your ideas here and if you could attend. (Please note: DQBrightonline has yet to know about this yet, but when i get in contact with him, he will most likely help plan this.
One last suggestion, we can also try to have a bus trip as well. With fun passes, we can explore Staten Islands many bus routes intertwined with the train. I hope to see a big turn out on my hometown line trip! Thank you.
To discuss about this, please email me at slaight5@aol.com or IM me atv slaight5. Details will soon be posted on transitpics.com. Thank you once again.
-Chris Slaight
-Chris
-Chris
Good one... Why not make it a bicycle/rail trip?
LOL
-Broadway Buffer
They decided it would cost more installing MVMs and turnstiles at the lightly-used stations, and enforcing the fare, than it would be to simply let people on for free. Most of them go to St. George anyway, and pay when they get off.
Then charge them $4 to get off.
In an effort to reverse falling fare revenues, the proposed Railway budget calls for turnstiles at the system's Tompkinsville station, to stanch the flow of passengers disembarking there to avoid paying fares at St. George Ferry Terminal.
But the budget also proposes cuts. Off-peak trains would be reduced to two cars, and all trains would have only one operator, allowing MTA's New York City Transit to eliminate 26 conductor positions.
The proposal calls for increasing wait times between some trains on weekends and eliminating some express service by next year. But forecasts for 2006, which show a $1.36 billion budget gap, could lead to eliminating all weekend service on the Railway by that year.
The MTA also is considering charging a $1 monthly administrative fee systemwide on its nearly 200,000 E-ZPass users, following a similar initiative by the Port Authority earlier this year.
I railfaned SIRT on a weekday midday train about 6 months ago, and could not believe how many people bailed there. It must have been close to 1/2 the train.
So out comes the threats about how bad service is,and how hard it is to operate service at the present levels without more money....
yet still,I wonder who's kids got sent to HAVARD with Capitol Improvement money?
Adding $1 to EZ-Pass is reasonable and brings MTA into line with other EZ-Pass operators. I would encourage the agency to adopt it quickly.
Reducing SI Railway off-peak trains to two-car consists is also reasonable if that does not lead to crowding. I would encourage MTA to do that quickly too (but minimize the schedule cuts).
Those are reasonable cost-control measures. As to the rest of the cuts - well, Staten Islanders need to gang up on their politicians and flood Pataki's office with emails, phone calls, faxes and letters.
Running shorter trains overnights and weekends, adding additional runs to reduce crowding where needed are reasonable cost control measures that do not mortally affect passengers abilty to reach thier destinations on time
They should have done this years ago.
The Brightan line for instance could from 10pm-6 am daily with 4 car trains with possibly adding one additonal run to keep passenger loads at a reasonable level.
The same can be said for closing many token booths. I was down near city hall today. The 4.5 entrance at the corner of jourolem(excuse my spelling) and Court has not need for a booth. Thier is a full time booth a half a block away.
The MTA shoudl install an infomation sign of simple light to tell riders if the MVM is having trouble. A sensible cost control measure
Time to stop living in the past - City Hall hasn't been anywhere near Joralemon and Court since 1898.
BTW: Brooklyn had no City Hall since it was incorporated into NYC in 1898. Brooklyn has a Borough Hall (the one with the clock tower, across from the Municipal Building.).
Thank you,
In addition to the fact that the booth is not needed, The booth in the center of the fare control is too large for the small fare control.
I hate to say, but my use of the court st borough hall station did not begin to around 1998 after the elevator was installed
Then again, this subway would never be built the way it is today. Imagine we can't take the train to Madison Square Garden from Brooklyn.
--Mark
MVM's have that feature, from day one. Above the screen you see a variable message scroll. If it is a color other than green there is a problem. Read the message and see if it applies to you- i.e. if you want to use your ATM card a machine not taking bills will not bother you.
Orange: Machine has a problem limiting function such as no bills, no coins, no single rides, no credit cards, etc.
Red: OUT OF SERVICE
Since most people don't look up at the variable message displays, the past year NYCT added a step feature that when you touch the screen, it will tell you what the machine cannot do, before you go to the first selection. It will tell you TEMPORARILY, follow by a list of problem areas, such as the common No Bills Accepted, or Single Rides, etc.
Orange: Machine has a problem limiting function such as no bills, no coins, no single rides, no credit cards"
I am talking about outside the station at the entrance to tthe fare control
If a person chooses to be ignorant, I should not have to pay for it
That's overkill.
It would cost almost nothing to impliment and would eliminate one of the main arguments that the anti-booth closing crowd has that what if the elderly enter the far control without a metrocard and a MVM is not availble to make the type of sale they need
All that would be needed is a wireless display.
I believe the SIR was formerly more extensive, but over the years its extent was reduced due to lack of patronage.
The commuter rail line is not easily for intra-island travel because there is no park & ride at many of the stations. The MTA should buy some property around one of the lines and sell park & ride lots. Staten Island is basically a burb and those folks do not walk or bike to the station.
It's incredible how the bus literally destroyed our trolley and rail system.
-Chris
-Chris
Your pal,
Fred
Is it ok if you don't have a camera?
-Chris
The last time I went up to Branford with Mr.RT and a non Sub-Talker we stopped for breakfast in Ct. at the Cracker Barrel. Just as we were getting our food, a tour bus stopped at the front door and dropped off 50 people. The restaurant was anticipating this and had an area set aside.
In your case you won't know until the trip starts just how many people will go to Golden's. I'd suggest calling them and discussing with them what is the best time to show up and what time to call them from a cell-phone with a count so they can perhaps bring staff in early to handle us. I would think that a lunch stop at 2 or 3 PM wouldn't be a problem
KEEP US POSTED ON SUB-TALK.
Thanx in advance
Hart Bus
SIR is now cutting down to 2 cars again huh? dam we just keep getting less and less. And by 2006 we WILL NOT have any weekend service?? I cany belive this... MTA says they have no money.. huh.. How did they pay contractors to rebuild Stillwell Av ? With RR ties? I dont get it . WE give em more, and get less....... As much as i want to be a t/o and work for mta, i think there disgusting..... $9.00 to cross the Verrazano ? Thats nice? Bring the F*cking R train here, then charge $9.00!
Q to Coney Is Via Brighton!
D via West End to Coney Is!
-Chris
-Chris
-Chris
-Chris
7 day from 21 to 26 dollars
5% increase in all Metro North and L.I.R.R. fares
.50 cents on all Tri Bridge and Tunnel Auth. tolls
and $1.00 monthy fee for all EZ passes
Comments ............... Discuss among yourself
The subway fare is only $2 with various discounts making it lower. The tolls are already $4 with an EZ-Pass discount of $3.50. Much of that money goes to subsidize mass transit that is no alternative to the bridge. The tolls as they are a scam, there is always either a free alternative (Queensborough vs. Midtown, Brooklyn vs. Battery, Willis/Third vs. Triborough) or there is no mass transit alternative. What subway line can motorists using the Verrazano Bridge use instead?
I get an E-Z pass which allows the TBTA to reduce the number of toll collectors and also reduces congestion (and hence, pollution) at their toll barricades, and I have to pay extra to make their life easier?? Absurd.
THIS is New York ... "state crack houses" are right around the corner. "It's for EDUMICATION!" :)
Then again with increased car congestion and less frequent trains,
people will be bitchin' about commuting to work.
Yes. Remember that adjusted for discounts the fare is lower than it was nine years ago.
What I want to never see again is a long period of no fare hikes, followed by a whopper -- the subway pattern since 1904 or so.
Shhh. You're being rational, and we can't have that.
There was a proposal to increase the minimum wage in New York. The Governor just vetoed it.
Commercial vehicles and busses enter for free.
Mass transit is great for going to/from the city center, it sucks for going between peripheral areas.
Aren't those bridges owned by the DOT? What makes you think the DOT would share the revenue from those bridges with the MTA.
And as for making the toll on the Verrazano Bridge $12 to encourage use of express buses: NO! Tolls on Manhattan bridges would encourage people to eschew auto travel to Manhattan whether they are from Staten Island or any other place, a toll on the Verrazano Bridge encourages nothing, it simply screws people who have no other alternative, as bus/train service between Brooklyn/Queens/Long Island and Staten Island is neither available nor practical. The S53/S79/S93 do little to alleviate this situation.
How about tolling the East River Bridges. Make them all EASY PASS only.
Motorist already pay to far a burden in the form of toll subsidies and gas taxes supporting the subway and bus system
What needs to be done is cut out all the waste
Elininate 90% of the token booths
How about charging a surcharge of $1-2 for using the token booths
Those who want these usesless booths
PAY FOR THEM
Motorists don't pay for the poison that they dump into our air, nor do they pay for the greater health costs that others must pay. The least that they can do is pay bridge and tunnel tolls.
Stop talking to yourself.
Subways are a MONEY LOSER to the MTA and have been since day one.
Most bridges have a toll less than their operating expense, in that they have a toll of $0.
I wonder what the people form Massachusetts who got and EZ Pass from the MTA to avoid paying Masspike's $27 start up charge for fastlane will do?
Also, I think there is special rush hour to New Lots but I forgot the line/s that go there.
Departing from 179 (times all approximate)
6:50AM
7:10AM
7:30AM
7:50AM
8:10AM??
The Hillside Express is nothing.
Got any more questions??????????????
every morning at around 7:30 u can catch a 4 from newlots headed to manhattan
after morning rush hour there is a 2 train that comes in on the local track headed to the yard, this same thing happens to the 5
before evening rush a 5 comes out of the relay tracks at utica and goes to nereid av
towards the end of evening rush u can catch a 4 to newlots around 7:30-8:00 ***this is done so the latenight 4 can come from newlots***
It's Livonia.
Northbound W trains depart 86th (Sea Beach) at 6:25am, 6:43am, and 6:56am. Southbound W trains arrive at 86th at 9:37pm, 9:47pm, and 9:57pm.
Northbound 2 trains depart New Lots at 9:35am, 4:32pm, 4:45pm, and 5:06pm. Southbound 2 trains arrive at New Lots at 8:52am, 9:17am, 9:30am, and 9:38am.
Northbound 4 trains depart New Lots at 7:13am and all night. Southbound 4 trains arrive at New Lots at 6:04pm, at 6:13pm, and all night.
And don't get me started on the 5.
Apologies if some of my information is inaccurate or out of date.
This morning I took a major bus and rail ride in Northern New Jersey, particularly Newark, Montclair, Wayne, Paterson, Union City, Bayonne, and Jersey City. I used mostly NJT buses and rail systems [with a little help from PATH and PATCO] and spent all day riding 18 buses and trains. So here are the details of the ride:
1] 6:45 am - Took Apartment shuttle to PATCO
2] 6:59 am - PATCO 243 - Collingswood to Broadway - usual morning commute to Philly
3] 7:11 am - RiverLINE 3504 - WRTC to Trenton - This trip will get busier as we go further north, with commuters going to State offices and transferring to the NEC line. Something new on the RL cars, none of the crunching noise as the car rounds the tight curves.
It seems that the RL is developing a nice two-way commute. Most systems generally have a one-way commute, into town in the morning and out in the afternoon, with the opposing direction generally empty. But the RL had the Trenton/NYC crowd going northbound, and the Philly/Camden crowd southbound, making this quite a busy line during the rush hours.
4] 8:16 am - NEC - car 6017 - Trenton to Newark - after nearly courting exhaustion running for the train, it gets delayed leaving the station because there are three trains ahead, and the first one broke down. This will slow my trip. The Alstom cars tend to “Rattle and Hum” when at speed. Got into Newark 30 minutes late.
5] After a bathroom and snack break, went to get on the Newark City Subway at 10:15 am car 111B - Penn Station to Grove St - quick ride to Grove St, walk to Bloomfield Ave for the 11 bus at 10:35 am.
6] 10:55 am - 11 bus - bus #1313 - this bus is not for the superstitious. Had to endure some loud nitwits on most of the trip. Interesting scenery, particularly passing the old Lackawanna Terminal, now a shopping center. Rode through Belleville, Montclair, Verona, Little Falls, Wayne, and finally got to Willowbrook Mall, and the Wayne Town Center, two not so hot looking malls. Took a Bathroom and Lunch Break.
7] 12:35 pm - 712 - bus 1301 - Willowbrook Mall to Paterson -
Nice, cool bus. The scenery of Wayne and Totowa is mostly commercial schlock. Passed by the Market St garage of NJT, and arrived in downtown Paterson. Paterson may be an armpit, but it’s a lot livelier and better looking than the dead-assed towns of Trenton and Camden. While waiting for the 190, I noticed those AWFUL cutaways poaching passengers from the 190. I saw one rolling rat trap with window panels missing from the entrance doors, and the emergency door in the back [383]. No wonder I will NOT ride those things.
8] 1:23 pm - 190 - bus #7928 - Paterson to Union City - now I wonder why people chose the rolling death traps over a nice, comfy MCI with wonderful AC. In my book, the MCI wins over any need for cheap transit, the money’s worth it. The last time I rode the 190 a few years ago, the line ran 35xx Flxible metro B’s. The MCI’s that replaced them are much better. Trip was interesting, saw no crapmobiles in Rutherford [maybe they outlawed them], and on the way to Secaucus and Union City, passed by the Meadowlands, and the channel 9 studios. At 2:15, got off in Union City, and waited for the bus in front of the old NJT Union City Garage. What a majestic structure.
9] 2:23 pm - 84 - 2601 - Union City to Journal Square - rode a rehabbed RTS. The Cummins engine sound somewhat different from the 1000 series RTS. I wonder Why?
10] 3:10 pm - PATH 159 - Journal Sq. to Pavonia Ave. Uneventful ride. At Pavonia Ave, I marveled at the fact that 25 years ago, this was not the upscale office-shopping complex, but rotting warehouses. The Pavonia Ave station was closed on weekends, since nothing of value was here at the time.
11] 3:25 pm - HBLR - 2010 - I wonder why doesn’t this line accept Bus Passes like the RL and the NCS. The scenery of NJ and the NY skyline is fascinating. Check out the Chicago-style El junction before arriving at Hoboken.
12] 3:33 pm - HBLR - 2008 - Hoboken to 22 nd St Bayonne -The ride was marred by a horde of noisy ghetto children. The insults and incessant talking got on my nerves. At Liberty State Park, the noisemakers got off, and the car really opened up on speed. While in Bayonne, I saw MTA D4500’s coming from Staten Island to Manhattan. I guess they take the shortcut through NJ to beat the traffic. Got off to deal with a day-long problem with my personal gas problem, let’s say that it made me take far too many bathroom breaks today, and that annoyed me.
13] 4:17 pm - HBLR - Bayonne 22nd ST to Liberty State Park. - Nice, fast ride to LSP. Then changed to the West Side Ave Car.
14] 4:32 pm - HBLR - 2002 - Liberty State Park to West Side Ave - Quick, fast ride on the West Side Branch. Then took the same car from West Side Ave to Exchange Place . Fast run to LSP then slow
running to Exchange Place. Very annoying.
At Exchange Place at 5:00 pm, rush hour is busy but not insanely crowded like in Manhattan. Lots of Transit action at a place once desolate and empty 25 years ago.
15] 5:25 pm - PATH - 687 - Exchange Place to Newark - Usual packed rush-hour trains out of Manhattan. At Newark, the station is just as big a madhouse as Penn Station in NYC. Arrived and waited at Newark for the Super Express. Went through the late-evening congestion as several Amtrak trains had to get through before the NJT train arrived.
16] 6:05 pm - NEC - 6572 - Newark to Trenton - Super Express to Princeton Jct, then Hamilton and Trenton. Got worried that I won’t make the RiverLINE connection, but the train made up the 5 minutes and got to Trenton. Made the RL connection with minutes to spare.
17] 7:00 pm - River LINE - 3503 - Trenton to Camden got a lot of reading materials [all of the NYC papers] to keep me company on the trip.
18] 8:03 pm - 403 - 3158 - The 403 bus cooperated by coming 5 minutes late [it’s due at WRTC at 7:58, the RL gets in at WRTC at 8:02 pm], that made my night since I won’t have to wait 45 minutes for the next bus in that pit called Camden.
8:25 pm - Home, 13 hours and 40 minutes after I left this morning!
-Chris
Exactly. What's with this Kawasakir guy? He makes nonsense posts like these, and tries to link to photos on his hard drive.
Well it depends from where the person is taking the train from [If from Manhattan then I guess the 4]
Btw off topic do they still have the "Cotton eye Joe" song anymore?
So I guess you were going to ask about the Cotton Eye Joe question as well on whether it is still playing or not?
Cheers, Bury
http://mta.info/mta/budget/2005.htm
or
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/mta/budget/2005.htm
Randy Mason
http://mta.info/mta/budget/2005.htm
Why hold a hearing if there's no one listening?
November's coming - show your appreciation by voting for the OTHER guy. No matter WHAT the "party affiliation" ... "you're in? You're OUT!"
That being said, I wouldn't vote for Kerry in November if you paid me. He may be a war "hero," and a good man but he's not qualified to be President. I have not seen or heard anything to convince me otherwise.
And before you call me a right-winger, know that I voted Democratic in 1992, 1996 and 2000. Bill Clinton, whom I always liked, was apparently too busy diddling Monica Lewinsky while Bin Laden was getting Al Qaeda together.
Bush makes mistakes, but there's no guarantee that Kerry wouldn't make worse ones. At least Bush is being proactive and is ignoring the corruption-riddled UN. Kerry seems to think that he needs France and Germany's OK before he can defend the US.
Maybe that's why flip flop Kerry has suddenly stopped referring to companies that outsource as Benedict Arnolds.
Face it, the man is a limousine liberal who is completely out of touch with the average working man. I'm not saying Bush is that great, because he isn't. I'm saying that Kerry isn't the right man for the job.
Just trying to steer this conversation back to the fare hike.
Bus fares can still be paid in cash (coins only, no change returned).
Your pal,
Fred
I think the MTA's hearings are as useless as those convened by the City back in the days when the Cross Bronx was being considered.
For the same reason that state highway departments must hold hearings before than can begin any construction or restoration work on roads, bridges, etc.--it's protocol. It doesn't matter whether one person shows up or a 100, or that it actually fits into the average person's schedule; all that matters is that when the decision goes through, naysayers can't say they weren't invited to an open/public meeting.
The only ones who believe that are the ones without any working neurons.
"Why hold a hearing if there's no one listening?"
You assume that because MTA isn't listening to YOU (how can they, since you wouldn't bother to show up anyway) that they aren't listening to anyone else.
Do you have a constructive suggestion regarding how to deal with budget deficits?
I'm sorry you're frustrated, but it's your own fault. Spend some energy figuring out how to start a dialogue with MTA and elected officials and maybe that situatio will change.
You are responsible for your own frustration. Only you can change that.
Maybe that's why they call them "hearings" not "listenings."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A26175-2004Jul29.html
Getting Screwed at Both Ends
M.N.R.R Blows It Big Time
Mouthful Gets Metro Passenger Handcuffs and Jail
NJT cop gives railfan photographer a hand
My penance will be four days away from SubTalk while I ride the Buckeye Express to the Dennison TrainFest.
Peace,
ANDEE
Andee... I didn't mention names, but as long as you own up to it, I must say that that post set the tone for what followed yesterday.
Help; I can't get onto SubwaySpot
Please be more careful with your subject headings, as there are many impressional minds out there.
Okay.... "minds" might be an exaggeration...
...and STRIPSEARCHED don't forget STRIPSEARCHED.
8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
The very BEST comedians NEVER have to say a coarse word ... classics like Bill Cosby could give you the full picture without ever saying "that." Same for many others. I've known HeyPaul for a while, and we've done face time and had LOTS of fun together. But let's just say that we haven't been applying the old meatrom as often as we could. As for me and my own torture of the masses, well ... what you see is what you gets. Can't take a lecture from Unca Selkoik, anyone? Well, you can just kiss my asp. I don't care, I don't have to. I live upstate. I'm dealing with bambis, paturkeys, swamp gas and farmer's lung. (ahem, ahem) ... (grin)
But the place (and some attitudes) could use a ... (ahem, ahem) "makeover." Heh.
Exactly. I just turned 60 this year. The years just flew by. I'm having a difficult time accepting the reality that most Subtalkers are 1/4 my age. I'm just clueless as to what to do.
How about attending a fantrip? The Sunset over Stillwell would be a good start.
Will there be Subtalkers on the fantrip? If so, I'd rather read my press clippings in my motorman's cab.
Tell me what you think:
Last weekend's BU trip
June 19th's IRT SMEE trip
Both were MoD trips. I think I can safely say that this trip held the record for the most in a group shot. Both shots were taken by Jehuty V2.
I don't know, maybe I just need to hang out at another subway site. Does anyone have a link to Rider Diarrheas?
Rider Diaries
Please post there. Your wittiness would be a great addition to our abode. :)
8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Heaven knows, I've tried, but I think it's hopeless. Andee was right when he told me a while back that I'm just clueless.
(for those lacking techo, GOOGLE the words in the quote above for a period of alternate amusement) ... as Firesign Theater once said, "I'm sorry, THIS ride is closed. Exit LEFT to funway.
I think you need to loosen up.
I'm only 4 years behind you, and the headings you listed didn't bother me at all.
Of course, I spent time in the Navy, worked in a steel mill, my old man owned a saloon, and I've spent a lot of time in carhouses.
I'm pretty non-judgemental. Lots of folks ring the bell differently.
I also take web BBS's at face value. It's like reading newspapers - you don't remember what you read the day after you read it.
THAT is just too funny. You DEFINITELY don't know heypaul.
Peace,
ANDEE
And my favorite suggestive headline:
"Blacks here to stay?"
My big kudos for Brighton Line ally, heypaul, for sheding some light on this travesty. Guys, you have plenty of adult sites all of us can be entertained, but please leave this off Subtalk.
Mojo??
I don't know French, so I'll have to get Doug or Andee to translate this page
Ummm ... salvation is *ON* the way - see an "Autsin Powers" film (if you dare) and suddenly, it'll all become as clear as the view on an R68 foamer glass, or as clear as the kiss at the end of this hot wet fist that says, "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED, WHOOPS." Don Pardo, please tell our contestant the number to call ... "buzzzzzzzz, honk, tweet."
Seriously? Don't ask, don't gel ... =)
I don't have a significant other to tell, so I thought I would complain to my insignificant others here at SubTalk.
It's strange.... Your response is similar to my psychiatrist's after he gave me a Rorschach test. He told me that my mind was filled with horribly violent impulses. I laughed at him and told him that I wasn't the one who drew the inkblots with all thosee head-on car crashes and people getting their shoe laces caught up in escalators.
No, I took some Lomotil and the urge to go to RD has lessened. I will keep the link handy, in case I eat unwisely again.
I particularly liked the final words of the spokesman for the Metro:
"I'd like to look at some things that we did and perhaps consider doing them differently to improve and possibly do a lessons-learned type of session/exercise."
It sounds like crap. I wonder how long it will take for our MTA to start using it?
Peace,
ANDEE
If anyone takes this seriously I pity them!
Parsons was a moron.
Its a pity the south park line wasnt.
That's not proof.
Parsons was not a moron. He built the IRT close to the surface to minimize stairs and the need for elevators. Deep boring like in London would have made elevators necessary and he anticipated that crowd control would be a big issue. He designed local and express lines for the First Subway. How could Parsons have possibly known to go with a 10 foot wide, 60 foot long car from the start?
--Mark
R-32.
til next time
Will be all R160.
R32's will be transferred to Corona Yard
R38's will be transferred to Westchester Yard
R44's will be transferred to LIRR control and be stored out in Montauk and Ronkonkoma Yards. One 4 car set will be converted to Museum cars and be used for MOD excursion trips, when needed.
:0)
wayne
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
WHAT a bunch of putz's
Peace,
ANDEE
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
You're right about that. There was no probable cause. She was of no threat to the officer or to anyone else.
Ah well, only LIBERALS live in Brooklyn, fuggem. America got attacked, but NOT the one *YOU* live in ... damned TOWELHEADS who OWN Brooklyn. Hell, BROOKLYN got a free SNOOTFUL of 9/11, what more could you possibly want. Class warfare? Nah. Who NEEDS the Fulton line anyway? Let them transfer for the *G* ... :-\
As a LIFETIME New Yorker, this one takes the cake. We've actually had HIGHER treason here than the 5-4 election last. It's REALLY time to throw the bastards out. ***ALL*** of them ... GO and vote - check the incumbents in the papers ... SEE who your "now beech" is ... vote for the *OTHER* guy ... ***ALL*** of them gotta go. Byebye, go greet at GreatChineseWALL*Mart, and *HAVE* a nice flipping day. :(
Transit systems are owned and run by government agencies, as such the actions of those agencies and the reasons for those actions, are on topic.
I hope that's not what he meant because anyone who believes that needs his head examined.
The man is entitled to his opinion. Intead of insulting him, why not offer a respectful and detailed disagreement with him (and us)? Explain WHY you think he's wrong.
First off...I think the Airport route would be used..not just by the riders there for flights,but workers also...
Also riders who would like a fast track to Lower Manhattan....
I think it would work ...but only if its part of the subway system...combined with the Fulton st subway service.
The LONG ISLAND RAILROAD'S Atlantic ave line could be turned over to the MTA SUBWAY..for these new services
1)From Manhattan to JFK via the Atlantic branch and the Rockaway line.
2)A RX service along the LIRR to Queens Villiage and Valley Stream,bringing subway like service to those area's where there isn't any presently....
3)A new under river tunnel from Manhattan to Downtown Bklyn,from the Second ave line and the 8TH ave subway to the Altlantic terminal area.
4)A rerouting of the Downtown subway network...by building connecting tunnels between the Local WTC terminial and the Broadway subway,and between the Broadway subway and Nassau st loop subway....
5)Create transfers between the IND subway and the other lines in Downtown Brooklyn...
Besides using that particular IND line for LIRR service is potentially unworkable - where the heck are you going to terminate the trains - deadhead them up the 8th Avenue line?
wayne
When I heard $2 billion, that was CLEARLY a hijacked train. And those who've been through this know all about the "Cranberry plan" floated by the downtowners ... "hijack the A, yay." HOWEVER - with $6 billion in _OPEN_ENDED_FUNDING_ I now see the plan as "we're going to *DIG*" ... so it might NOT be a political repeat of "Pelham 1-2-3" as I saw being the ONLY option to bring it in at or under $2 bill ... but this might be the end of that silly "let's take trucks off the road and build a tunnel from Joisey" solution to pollution ... this came out of THAT funding as well, so that's as dead as Penn Station based on my experience in working with and analyzing "major state commitments to technology" under which this laughably falls.
But YES, it really *IS* all about politics - every squeal, every brake screech, every "out of service, you're going downtown." And something smells worse than the #7 tunnel here. :(
Novelist Norman Mailer ran for Mayor on that platform in the 1960s. His platform was "No more bullshit." He lost by a mile.
Yes our state government is the worst in the country. But there have been plenty of times in our history that the City of New York was mismanaged, and the state government bailed us out. Remember what the Federalist Papers said about the value of a big republic.
The problem isn't that the state is powerful. The problem is that we have a bad state government.
Secession has been part of the fabric as well. Guy Molinari of Staten Island actually GOT a secession bill passed. But in the end it fell apart because they'd have to take New York City and in particular, the *major* drain on the taxpayer, LONG ISLAND with them. No offense to people living on Long Island intended, but Long Island in particular is the LARGEST drain on the collective taxpayer wallet, a proven fiscal fact. Give Long Island to Connecticut and New York would be solvent, both upstate and down. I can't see folks on Long Island going for this though ... :)
Long Island becomes the 51 state.....
New York City would probably do fairly well for itself if JUST the five boroughs broke off, but that's not going to happen. And financially, it would be a net loss for the city, but not by all that much. Wouldn't be much of a loss for upstate either since the funding formulas largely leave tax money in the general areas where it's raised. Ah, but Long Island would TRULY be hurting if any piece of the state went away since Long Island is HEAVILY subsidized by everybody else. Because this was the outcome of the study groups once again, I wouldn't start packing any bags. :)
I don't think the numbers back that up. Studies released by the CGI show that New York City puts in more than it gets out, the Downstate Suburbs put in much more than they get out (because they are mostly rich), and Upstate (Monroe County excepted) gets out more than it puts in.
I apologize to all for my apparently "insane" cynicism, but please bear in mind that I was directly caught in the gears of the sausage factory, and I *know* without question what kind of (ahem) "fat" blows into that sausage casing at 550 PSI. :)
Don't. Think logically. The top two budget items are school aid and Medicaid. Plenty of that goes to Long Island -- for the elderly for Medicaid -- but not as much as NYC and Upstate.
On the tax side, the number one state tax is the progressive personal income tax. Plenty of rich people on Long Island paying in. Same is true, to a lesser extent, in New York City, thanks to Manhattan. Not many upstate. Sales taxes are distributed more evenly around the state, while corporate income taxes are concentrated in New York City.
If a company has to be *BRIBED* to do business here, then maybe they might be SPAMMERS? *HONEST* companies such as "Privacy Software Corp" (a NEW YORK corporation) has NEVER taken "welfare money" but SURE hope that the Governor's Office of Technology which has PROMISED to buy the software we made for them would just *PAY THE PHUCK UP* that measly $12,000 they OWE us. :(
As a DIRECT result of New York State shafting us, the *FRENCH* Government is paying for ONE employee we just hired, and all of our OTHERS are in Minnesota ... all "form 1099's" ... "here's what we need done, can you DO it for us? THANK YOU, here's your check, go DO it." I'd *RATHER* hire New Yorkers myself, but *THIS* state makes it *IMPOSSIBLE* ... DOUBLE :(
But we're STILL just as scrood by New York's GOP ... the ones GUARANTEED to scroo up the nationals with the chit they pull HERE. :)
wayne
And if you remember his running mate was Jimmy Breslin, one of the biggest drunken dipshits in the world. By the way, do you remember when William F Buckley Jr ran for mayor? He advocated elevated bikeways all over Manhattan, a kind of liberal idea for one of the country's leading conservatives!!!
All these things were before my time. I knew about Mailer because I read about it, not about Buckley.
I've always admired Bill Buckley's intelligence, exceptional wit and his PRAGMATIC views on the realities of life. In other words, "Never take life TOO seriously, and BEWARE of those who do." He penned those words back in 1964. They're my mantra. :)
A one-seat ride from JFK to Manhattan is not for Long Island.
http://www.nyc.gov/html/om/html/2004b/pr210-04.html
"The new funds generated could be used to build a new rail link from Long Island and JFK airport into Lower Manhattan, increasing the global competitiveness of New York while helping hundreds of thousands commuters on Long Island and boosting the long-term job creation efforts in the City."
and
"The Governor stated in his June letter that any re-allocated benefits from the tax package should be dedicated to the building of a rail link to Long Island and JFK Airport from Lower Manhattan. The new rail line would provide downtown with dramatically improved access to one of the region's most important labor pools and the region's premier international gateway."
TRUST me here - the folks who will be getting better access to Lower Manhattan will not be flying in every morning from Peoria. SAYING that it's the "JFK EXPRESS" (didn't we already have one?) is good old doublespeak ... even the new AirTrain isn't the best of way to get all that luggage to the plane. Ask anyone's who made the mistake of trying it once.
No offense, but more pork for Long Island ... at the expense of MANHATTAN. That $2 billion could have paid for a hotel, better subway service or something spent WITHIN the city. But our boy in DC counted the republicans in Manhattan and this is the result.
Lack of rail transit angle: They JUST ripped up the remains of the D&H railroad, so trains are no longer possible here, so now it HAS to be a bus. Ain't got any of those either. :(
If it costs, $14 to ride from Howard Beach to the Terminal, How much will it be to Manhattan? $50? $75?
Also, LIRR could extend west from NYP, then curve south under west side highway to connect with the NJT track to downtown.
Big Talk.
I found it interesting that plans include a new Metro North stop adjacent to the new stadium. I seem to recall someone here pushing for that a while back.
Your pal,
Fred
I like a Metro North Link but is this some Sceme by the Yankee Managment to cater to Upscale Metro North Fans while alienating "down scale" Inner City Plans.
We all know what the Yankee managment thinks of the Bronx and the surrounding area. They've said it in no uncertain terms.
How would the subways be retooled should the new stadium be built.
Also-- Today's Times said that the old Stadium would be converted to a Parking Garage. This again implies that they are catering to Drivers Rather than "Salt of the Earth" Subway riders.
What will be the impact of a massive increase in parking in the South Bronx. Will it be at the expense of what we really need which is more subways for the People who live in the area?
Fine, takes takes them off our D and 4 trains. More room for us.
>>>Will it be at the expense of what we really need which is more subways for the People who live in the area? <<<
That area of the Bronx does not need more subways.
Peace,
ANDEE
Your pal,
Fred
I am generally opposed to spending govt money on sports stadiums, the bread and circuses of modern America. But this one may have some merit socially and economically.
Not that I want to see it happen-- to tear down Yankee Stadium would be a grave sin, to move from it would be horrible, esp if it is another one of these stadiums with a phony corporate name.
Parking lots and catering to the out of town crowd is an endorsment of Motor Traffic in the city which must be curtailed.
Considering our record in July and today's sweep of the Mets, NO ONE can beat my Braves. :-)
Your pal,
Fred
Please allow me to remind everyone, that in one of my infrequent postings, I mused about the usefullness of a Metro North Station at The Stadium.
It is a good idea.
til next time
Since your game is hurting people, you could do so much more to hurt the people. I have a suggestion: if you are going to take the Yankees out of the Bronx, and deprive the residents of something as dear to them as is Jesus to a New-Born Christian, why don't you just deliver a well needed coup-de-grace to the borough, and drop a Nuclear Bomb on the Borough too. Why stop with taking the Yankees from their Home? Do some additional damage while you are at the controls.
And since your proposal that the Yankees leave is sadistic and malicious, before your drop the Nukes on the Bronx, consider also putting AIDS in the drinking water of the Bronx too. Nice, right? If your want the people of the Bronx to really suffer, as you suggest by putting the Yankees in the Swampylands, you would really derive some sadistic joy by watching all the residents die a miserable death. Once 50% or so have died, and their bodies are rotting i the streets, then drop The Bomb. I mean, think of it! Do it with style and efficiency! Mom always said, if you are gonna do something, do it right. Ciao!
....The new stadium will reuire the partial (or perhaps, complete) destruction of Macombs Dam Park, which is sure to become a political hot potato. The law current requires that the parkland be replaced, but it doesn't have to be at the same location. Where is the new park to be built?
I also don't understand the idea of preserving the shell of the old stadium for use as a parking structure. For one thing, the stadium exterior is hardly what gave Yankee Stadium its aura in the first place; it's the ballfield, the towering grandstands, the deep left-centerfield, the monuments, and the arches along the roof (sadly removed in the 1970s remodelling). Also: the exterior was seriously altered during the remodelling--it's hardly pristine.
I really liked the plan once propsed by the Bronx Borough President. This involved a second remodelling which would have built new, wider courcourses (some would have been outside the stadium, enclosed in a glass shell); the conversion of the mezzanine into luxury boxes, and the addition of a new roof resembling the old copper cornice. (Unfortunately, the website was pulled down recently.)
Your pal,
Fred
How much would be underground.
They have already replaced a FREE bus with a $7 ride on the premis that the airports are only for the rich.
How much will a ride from JFK to World Trade Cost? If Howard Beach to JFK is $14 Round trip, it seems that JFK to World Trade would be $50 or $75 round trip.
I thought this issue got resolved already: Running more trains through those tubes will cut the number of trains for the morning rush. Not OK for trains that are already packed. (Unless they want it to be more like the Lexington Ave line.) That graphic can't be right.
The project is expected to be completed in 2013. It would allow travelers heading to Manhattan from Kennedy Airport to travel aboard new trains on existing AirTrain tracks that loop around the central terminal area and then run along a viaduct in the middle of the Van Wyck Expressway to Jamaica, Queens. There, a new 1,500-foot elevated connector would carry the trains from the AirTrain tracks to the Long Island Rail Road tracks heading toward Brooklyn.
The implication is that the AirTrains would run right into lower Manhattan, if my read of the paragraph is correct.
AirTrain stock is driverless induction-motor powered. Is it FRA compliant? If not and AirTrain takes two tracks from the LIRR to run a separate service, how would that benefit Long Island residents in general?
That's what I don't get about this article: not much of it makes sense. They're going to run a non-FRA-compliant train along the LIRR, then SKIP Atlantic Ave (the busiest station in Brooklyn). Next, they ignore the (short but plenty wide and cheap) existing stretch of tunnel under Atlantic Ave, join up with the A and C at Jay St, all to further clog up the Cranberry Street tubes?
Meanwhile, a new tube from Atlantic Ave could later feed subway service to Red Hook. Go figure. At least Pataki didn't propose extending the AirTrain to Schenectady....
:0)
What if Congress gives the AirTrain a waiver for FRA compliance?
I was influenced by Jabbour's design. I think the fact that every route is represented by their own separate line. Comments?
Good luck,
Alargule
As Eddie Jabbour's SubTalk representative, I am passing this matter onto our attorneys Dewey, Cheatem & Howe...
-Chris
My addr. is within my handle.
If I were designing it, I would've used a diagonal line for the Broadway BMT.
Note that Legends said he was influenced by Jabbour's design.
However, in dense areas such as Midtown, the map becomes a little unclear.
\\Julian
I was wondering how people feel here about this project. I wonder if Kerry will show up to vote for this one?
Here's two links:
White House to Allow $2 Billion in 9/11 Aid to Be Used for Airport Link (NY Times)
City to get $2B for train-plane link (Newsday)
~W
Sean@Temple
Two words: Oink oink.
Want to get practical? How much would building a Downtown "union station" connecting NJ Transit's Hoboken Division with LIRR's Atlantic Avenue Branch cost . . . ? Would $2 bil be enough? Then we can get rid of the "new North River tunnels" that would do nothing but constrict Penn Station anyway, and all NJT commuter trains can get into Manhattan, as well as the LIRR Atlantic Avenue branch for the first time . . . (heck, with NJT's diesel lines, we can even play with "dual-mode")
I like the idea, but I think that it would cost a lot more than $2 billion.
The ESA is costing over $5 billion, and it involves less new infrastructure than a Downtown "Union Station" would need.
It could have used one side of the rail terminal...and left the otherside to MNRR...
IT'S just a wates of money and time....
Many people have said that. The money saved could have been used for a more extensive MetroNorth to Penn investment.
Randy Mason
Mark
Bloomberg and Pataki think that more executive types would use LIRR if they didn't have to transfer at Penn to continue their trip south to the financial district or the courthouses.
Te airport is an afterthought to that...
This is about providing the infrastructure needed to keep Lower Manhattan a competitive business district.
All the Bushies can do is SHOUT DOWN any "opposition" ... they have *NO* redeeming values, or valid arguments with which to COUNTER arhgument on any LEVEL of intellectual discussion. All there is for the Shrubbies to peddle is spin, ridicule and MORE FEAR.
The republican party is ***SO*** done. Fork, trashbag of history, done. Don't sweat it, hold you head high, for the next four years or longer, we can tell THEM to "respect your leader and STFU." Alas, those with ANY bloodflow to the cerebellum know better than to treat the wrong wingers the way *THEY* treat others. Then again, I could be pursuaded to spend four years posting "please stick to rapid/rail transit issues only. This is not "WorldPoliticsTalk"!" ... heh. Even *IF* it's on topic, just like the others. Turnabout is fair play, but SOME of us morons out here with a "mental problem" have ALWAYS believed that we're *ALL* "patriotic Americans" and that DISSENT is a sign of HEALTH for a democracy ... well, except for Shrubbies ... but once they've been put through "thought camp" they'll be SO much better, the little dears. Heh.
But REALLY ... WHY is politics such a big thing here? Well, just *LOOK* at what the POLITICIANS in power are doing to your Metrocard, your ride, your borough, your BUS. Ah nevermind ... Shake the boogeyman of "oh, they're getting political" and POOF goes the G train. :(
Let's pull the handle and DUMP the DUBYA train instead. :)
1. Lower Manhattan IS a competitive business district. Yes, it's lost some companies, especially since 9/11, but it's still doing better than most CBD's in the United States. Comparisons to Midtown account for much of its perception of weakness.
2. To the extent that Lower Manhattan needs a boost, there's no reason to believe that improved transit infrastructure is any sort of magic bullet. The area's transit access already is excellent. Targeted tax incentives probably would accomplish more.
The N.Y.B.O.T. used to have a design rule about not putting signals more than 1/2 way into a station, but now the TA will put them all the way to the end, and space them very close, in order to close trains in using signals with station time without having to resort the the use of Wheel Detectors, which everyone just hates.
~W
Peace,
ANDEE
\\Julian
#3 West End Jeff
til next time
An interesting thing for the media to do might be to follow *ALL* of the MTA board and executives and see how often *they* ride the subway. To get to work. Hmmm. :)
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
-James
David
State control of the subways started with the Transit Authority's creation in 1954. One of the TA's first acts was to raise the fare from 10 to 15 cents.
David
Please don't ride the MTA then. More space for the rest of us. Thank you.
#3 West End Jeff
-James
I guess they don't have the safety features that we have in New York, if the man's body was stuck between the doors and the train still took off.
That is basic procedure (or should be). The man died in part because of negligence by the Munich transit agency.
In New York this accident would likely not have occurred.
You missed my point. The point was that the NYC subway crew would have stopped the train, and no fatality would have occurred.
The fatality occurred in Munich because of crew error, not because a man got stuck in the doors.
Mark
In an accident people don't think - they act impulsively. I can't say I, or anyone else, would have done any better. When there's a guy with his head hanging out from the doors, you tend to pay attention to that and that only - the "deer in headlights" factor
Exactly.... Probably have the people in the car were scared to death and the others were hoping those trying to pull him in would succeed.
With no F trains going to Euclid, A trains will have to run local.
The MTA confuses customers with it's stupidity. One poster says the F runs to Euclid, replacing the C, the other poster contradicts it.
Yes, for F riders the sign needs to read "service diversion." But at stations along the G, it ought to read "special beach service to Coney Island?" Might give a few people some ideas.
Sorry if this is a double post, I'm home after my knee surgery and trying to catch up on things.
Chuck Greene
I got an email about this from one of the members of Philly Traction groups about this. It's odd because a SEPTA trolley driver that's has his own web page had written that the trolleys were at Callowhill!
Chuck Greene
The unconfirmed word is that I have been hearing is that trolley service on the #15 Girard Avenue could be restored hopefully by SEPTA perhaps in this upcoming September or the next schedule change, after the "problem" is resolved. Anyway, those PCC-II's newly sealed side windows make the cars almost look like those of Pittsburgh's former 1700- and 4000-numbered series.
-William A. Padron
["R2 Wilmington"]
All railfans and us "Phillyites" would love to see those PCC-II's running on Girard Ave. I'd be down there with "bells on" to ride that thing from end to end. I think they are really neat looking, sans that much needed monitor roof for the A/C units.
Any further news from anyone on this board is more than welcome!
Chuck Greene
Citations: (1), (2)
http://www.thetimesonline.com/articles/2004/07/30/ap/headlines/d84586n80.txt
What is London Transport's policy on eating on the subway? Is it limited to smelly foods, or all types of food?
Mark
Off course it isn't, I made the story up.
Try these:
http://www.appeal-democrat.com/articles/2004/07/30/ap/headlines/d84586n80.txt
http://www.columbiabasinherald.com/articles/2004/07/30/ap/headlines/d84586n80.txt
This story ran on nwitimes.com on Friday, July 30, 2004 1:04 PM CDT
London to Remove 'Salami' Subway Posters
LONDON - London transport authorities promised Friday to remove posters warning against eating on the subway that left a bad taste in the mouths of Italian diplomats.
The offending advertisement depicted a man on a subway train surrounded by salami, strings of sausages and Parma hams, above the words "Please don't eat smelly food."
Guido Cerboni, economic affairs chief at the Italian embassy in London, said the poster was "offensive and harmful to Italian products."
He said Italian ambassador Giancarlo Aragona had written to London transport officials and mayor Ken Livingstone to complain about the ad.
"We have no objection to the campaign about smelly food, but we object to the way it has been presented," Cerboni said.
"It is clearly harmful for Italian produce and also not very politically correct, because the man portrayed in the poster was clearly Italian or Mediterranean."
Advertising executives had "obviously never eaten prosciutto" if they thought it was smelly, he added.
Livingstone said he had ordered the posters removed.
"As a lover of Italian food, I can say that the items illustrated both smell and taste delicious," he said. "I have asked London Underground to take the ads down immediately."
London Underground apologized "for any offense caused to any members of the Italian community and charcuterie manufacturers and retailers."
"The poster was meant to be a lighthearted attempt to dissuade Tube passengers from eating smelly foods," it said. "Under no circumstances was it meant to cause offense to any nationality or company."
(jl-jw)
Personally, I think all eating on the subway should be banned, but if we're only going to ban specific foods on the Underground, please don't ban jerk chicken and Chinese food. Do that and the poor Londoners will have to eat (gasp) English food!
Mark
1) The Bleeker to Broadway/Lafayette connection. Contrary to the screaming headlines in the local paper, this connection is much more important to Brooklyn than Jay/Lawrence, which is in. It is already designed, and was supposed to be built 2000-04, but was cut to cover over-runs. Outrageous.
2) Construction on the Second Avenue north of 96th. So much for the portion north of there opening soon after the portion south. All that is there is $75 million more for final design, meaning construction can't start until 2010.
That's just the beginning -- what the MTA is hoping to get.
This is what happens when you fund five years of normal replacement with 30 years of all the debt you can handle and then some. You get some popular state politicians and an impaired future.
And RTA is I beleave Cleveland Transit.
But are they Bob Diamnond's trolleys?
Is this a trick sarcastic question?
Or have you no idea at all?
You said they were at a naval year. Wonder if they're being preped to be shipped overseas(we ship some of your unused stuff to other counties to make them better than us).
Interesting.
Church Av-Beverley Road-Ocean Parkway-Park Circle-Parkside Av-New York Av-East New York Av-Atlantic Av-Archer Av-Merrick Blvd
That was longer than the Woodside-Kensington section (48 St-50 Av-39 St-Greenpoint-Leonard St-Nassau Av-N 13 St-Kent-Flushing-Washington-Prospect Park-PPW-20-McDonald)
And yes, the M7 in the tunnel is at the ENY station.
W Broadway
I have to admit, you have cojones. That train is at the East New York station on the Atlantic Avenue line, in an awful neighborhood.
What's next? Banning all food and drink ads in all worldwide rail transportation networks? Amtrak closing down it's dining cars and scrapping them?
--Mark
I don't know if 311 is the best way way to complain about it. But it's a start. People can also call 1-718-243-3333 to make a complaint. For those who have a computer they can use:
http://mta-nyc.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/mta_nyc.cfg/php/enduser/ask.php?p_prod_lvl1=2&%20p_cat_lvl1=12 to file a complaint.
But as I said it is a start. If enough people start complaining about it, TA will do something about it.
Chuck Greene
On par with those who utilize the service of swipers and brag about it.
Worse. Proceeds from the fantrips go to charity, so fare-beating cheats a charity out of money.
-James
You are a bunch of cheepskates - you are stealing from a charity - is there no shame?
Michael
40.00 is still too much for one person, and most of the trips arent that great from what I seen anyways. And what line? The orange or yellow dotted line at the edge of the platform? ;)
I do agree with you on the first part to a limited extent. Some can easily afford a price like that but for others, they'd have to cut corners and make sacrifices.
"...and most of the trips arent that great from what I seen anyways."
But for the last part of your comment...you probably haven't been on any trip, therefore you automatically assume they aren't great (and we know what happens when we assume...)
I haven't been on all the trips but the times I did have on the ones I did go on were truly memorable. Just riding in trains as old as they are is a treat in itself.
Theres a reason I wasnt on the trips, its because I'm either busy, or its doing a route that got nothing good to see. What am I going to do, ride the train up and down the line I use quite often? How stupid is that. Its more fun to ride trains to the abandoned stations instead. Just because somebodys not there, doesnt mean pictures dont tell the story!
I used to think these trips weren't that specatcular until I went on my first one in late December of last year.
I don't know about you, but I just go for the experience. I could care less what the route is.
"Its more fun to ride trains to the abandoned stations instead"
They did that on one of the last trips, where they visited City Hall lower level and the unused side of 63-Lexington. I'm sure you would've loved that trip, but what happened? Busy?
I've been on so many of these trips, I think I've been to almost every station on the system, except the Rockaways. Some day a few of us are coming up and pay $2.00 to see the Rockaways via the "A" train.
Chuck Greene
"Then just go and see what you're missing out, unless all you have is $27.92 in your wallet... "
HAHAHA, I got way more then that. I can afford all the trips I want, but it doesnt mean you got to go on them because you have the money. 40.00 can be used for more then a train ride.
Oh well, at least I'm saving the money for future use. I'll try and see if I can make it to the next trip...
No, that's not what you do. No one rides these trips to see the sights since you can do that on any train. No, they ride these for many other reasons that you can only truly understand once you actually go on a MOD trip.
til next time
What about the other forms of questionable behavior on MOD trips, like how some (including yourself) occasionally use it as an underground bazaar, showcasing your "memorabilia" for profit on a not-for-profit trip?
-Harry
Maybe we can get these ladies to go on the next MOD trip...
Anyone who openly and brazenly sell their wares on a charity trip are scumbags. Why? If it's a charity fan trip, I ask myself this question: How much percentage of the profits from the sales of train videos and other memorabilia, actually go to ANY charitable cause, lest the March of Dimes? If the answer is anything but zero percent, then you are wrong. Remonds me of those sicko hawkers selling WTC merchandise for their pockets.
If someone doesn't have a ticket, and wants to get on after lunch, charge 'em $20 for a half a trip... it may help for (a)People who can't afford a full $40 but still want to go or (b)People who work, or for some reason or another can't begin with the group at 10:30.
I know it doesn't fully help the problem of people hopping on at photo stops, but maybe it would help just a teeny bit. And maybe more railfans would come on the trips because $20 is easier than $40.
And karma will bite swindlers in the ass one day or another. What comes around goes around.
Next time, please get your facts straight before you accuse people of stealing a ride. I do not believe in stealing, especially against charity or anything else. It is to my understanding, and you are right that other people sneaked in and got a free ride. Well this HAS to stop right now because it's not fair to the passengers who paid $40 while others get away with it.
And, your unnecessary rude language appears to bespeak of your lack of upbringing and education, or a lack of desire to use what you may have learned. Rude language and the use of 4-letter words is totally uncalled for here - if one can't speak or write in a civil manner, I suggest that person go back to school and learn to speak - and also spell correctly. If you don't you're not going to make it in the real world.....
-James
Not really.
-Harry
And I just want to give a shout out right now to everyone saying:
BOYCOTT JOE THE SLIMEBALL PEDDLER
Go sue me and see how far ya get, Joe.
-James
This flame war should STOP NOW !!!!!! before David does it for you and all the rest of us.
I am not a big fan of Joe Saitta and I don't think I have ever bought anything from him, but he is a hard working family man whose knowledge of bygone era's he willing shares on Sub-Talk and Bus-Talk. I enjoy his detailed accounts of the history of various lines, companies, routes, etc. It would be a great loss to this board if he was chased away by some people who have axes to grind with him.
If you have a problem with him, why not e-mail him privately and discuss it with him and not bring such vitriol to this board.
Also if you don't like the items he sells you don't have to buy them.
So Joe, get your act together and stop with these insane lawsuits!
Otherwise I might really show up with that sign.
-James
That law suit wouldn't stick in a court of law, because if they put the sign up and maintained a quiet protest without saying a word, then its not harassment, its freedom of speach. A Constitutional right IIRC.
-James
FYI, Joe is a frequent presenter at ERA meetings. I enjoyed a recent night that featured PCCs from around the World.
But when you take advantage of a charity trip that benefits babies for you own profit and personal gain by selling transit merchandise on board the excursion train, and pocketing every single penny of your profits, I will treat that person in a different level. And not on a very positive level either.
The point is, I actually agree with everything you said, but you indirectly accused me of beating the fare on the MOD, and you are 100% correct in saying those people should not try to cheat people like us who paid the fare as a donation. While you sell your wares, if you had a disclaimer that a "portion of the proceeds will go to charity", I respect and admire that. I had personally MADE SURE that I saw Bill Wall at Church Ave first so I can get a ticket, then do whatever on the MOD trip I wish to enjoy, be it chasing the train or riding the outside end portion of the BU car.
Perhaps if what you say that your merchandise you sell, that a part (even 1 percent) goes to a charity you don't want to disclose, is acutally true, then I will bring some extra cash and buy something from you.
Bay Terrace
Great Kills
R44s
-Chris
Tottenville
Tompkinsville
Stapleton
Bay Terrace
Grasmere
St. George (several)
I think thats it.
All of the other ones are side platforms.
-Chris
-Chris
A judge ruled in favor of the MBTA's search policies, saying that the urgent need for security outweighed the possible infringements on riders' rights.
Orange Line riders where those who were inconvenienced the most, but only by about five mintues during full-train searches at Haymarket and Community College before going past North Station during key hours. As far as I know, no one refused a search, and no one was caught with anything.
It's all over now, at least in Boston.
Now, it's New York's turn :-)
And as an FYI I heard about this on Tuesday and didn't say a word until I actually had confirmation, I won't report until I know it to be the truth.
As of today, the July 19 Eqpt Cycles are in effect. There will be an Aug 2
revision of the eqpt cycles where one ACMU cycle will cease to run out of NWP,
leaving just 2 sets on each line.
Here's the July 19 cycles:
ACMU
HM
6/ 720-775
7/ 726-763
NWP
7/ 516-573
6/ 522-359-2360-577
7/ 528-2523-layup in NWP after the AM Peak as spare
M-7
HM
4/ 706-707-744-727-2770-461-2462-781.
6/ 718-553-580-583-592-597.
8/ 722-2337-338-565.
6/ 732-771-784-791.
NWP
6/ 502-2315-316-2517-542-533-562-745-776-777.
8/ 512-515-538-631-668-755.
So, that's it so far as of 7/29/2004.
33 ACMU
38 M-7
It's expected that the ACMU's may all be gone by early September.
Long prison sentence ordered for Mary Hill
Mom will serve 15 years for causing fatal accident that killed two teens
By Rene Stutzman
Sentinel Staff Writer
July 30, 2004, 11:53 AM EDT
SANFORD -- A judge today sentenced Longwood mother Mary Hill to 15 years in prison, ordering her locked up for killing her 13-year-old daughter and the child's best friend in a car crash four years ago.
Defense attorney Tim Berry had argued that Hill should remain free.
He said Hill should be allowed to continue treatment at a private psychiatric hospital in Gainesville, where she's been since May, then be placed on house arrest and probation.
Prosecutors wanted her locked up for 21years, the minimum under state sentencing guidelines.
Hill, 53, showed no emotional reaction as she was handcuffed and led from the courtroom.
Hill was driving her 13-year-old daughter and two school friends home from the first day of school Aug. 7, 2000, when her BMW veered out of control on Markham Woods Road and skidded sideways into a tree.
Hill's daughter, Amy, was killed. So was Carrie Brown, 14, the daughter of internationally-known gymnastics coach Rita Brown. A third middle-schooler, Zak Rockwell, was in a coma for three days.
Mary Hill suffered a broken kneecap and three broken ribs.
A state trooper estimated her speed at 73 mph. She was in a 45-mph zone.
At her trial in February Hill testified the car sped out of control on its own.
Jurors didn't believe her. A six-member panel took five hours to convict her of two counts each of manslaughter and vehicular homicide.
The decision was another blow for Hill, whose life has been in ruins since the crash. She's been under treatment at a mental hospital since May. Last year, state welfare workers took away her one surviving underage child, she's in the midst of a bitter divorce, and two mortgage companies filed suit to foreclose on her huge Markham Woods Road home.
----
good riddance...i mean ain't that a shame. This ever happen on a park and ride?
The victim's family says the penalty, which also includes driving school, is too light.
By Christopher Goffard
St. Petersburg Times
July 30, 2004
TAMPA -- Charles Gable Yerrid, the teenage son of a multimillionaire Tampa lawyer, was sentenced Wednesday for his role in a car crash that killed a nurse. His punishment: a $350 fine, driving school and community service.
It was a penalty the parents of Nancy Christine White Bradley of Lutz, the 33-year-old woman killed in the crash, found woefully light.
"Three hundred fifty dollars to kill somebody -- I think it's a sad situation," said her father, George White.
"I thought all the time, 'Big money talks,' and I'm very disappointed in the outcome of this case."
Last August, Yerrid, then 16, was speeding down Bayshore Boulevard when his Cadillac Escalade struck a Nissan Altima driven by Nancy Bradley.
A device in Yerrid's SUV put his speed at 78 mph seven seconds before his vehicle hit Bradley's car in a 40 mph zone.
An accident-reconstruction expert put Yerrid's speed in the high 40s or low 50s on impact, but investigators concluded Bradley had tried to make an illegal left turn onto Bayshore before the crash.
Prosecutors declined to charge Yerrid with a crime in connection with Bradley's death, saying speed alone was not enough to do so under the law. Instead, Yerrid received a civil citation for unlawful speed involving death.
On Wednesday, after Yerrid pleaded no contest to the citation, Hillsborough County Judge Eric Myers issued the $350 fine and ordered him to attend driving school and perform 50 hours of community service at the Moffitt Cancer Center.
Tampa police Detective Mike Willingham, who investigated the crash, said after the hearing that he agreed with the case's resolution. As Yerrid left the courthouse, the detective gave him some words of encouragement.
"You're a young guy," the detective told Yerrid. "Don't let this incident ruin you. Don't live with any guilt if you can."
In the lobby, Charles Yerrid stood between his parents as reporters clustered around. His father, Steve Yerrid, who is being paid $200 million as his share of the state's settlement with tobacco companies, did the talking.
"Our prayers have been with the other family," said the elder Yerrid, adding that resolving the case was another step in healing.
In September, fending off a potential wrongful-death suit, the Yerrids reached a financial settlement with Bradley's husband and his 7-year-old daughter, Aeriel. The terms of the settlement are confidential.
Reached by phone at their home in Inglis, Nancy Bradley's parents said Yerrid got off too light.
"This was our only daughter," said her mother, Winnie White. "We are devastated. We will never get over this. Not enough has been done to make this young man realize what he did. Therefore it leaves the door open for it to happen again."
Tragic story, but I don't quite see how it's a travesty of justice.
The Florida Highway Patrol said Chad York, 32, was driving his employer's van east on Glen Rose Road at 7:24 a.m. when the train slammed into the van. There were no passengers on the train.
"We believe he died upon impact after the train hit him on the driver-side door," said Trooper Kim Miller, an FHP spokeswoman.
The train was going about 60 mph when the engineer sounded its horn, according to witnesses.
Since 2002, there have been at least two other fatal collisions at the crossing, Miller said.
Because it is on a private road, the intersection has no rail-crossing arms or lights. Only a sign alerts motorists of a railroad crossing, Miller said.
"We don't know if he was distracted or trying to beat the train," Miller said of York. "It didn't look like he was going at a high rate of speed."
July 30, 2004
A citizen's initiative aimed at repealing Florida's proposed high-speed rail system won a spot on the November ballot Thursday, but proponents of the bullet train vowed to keep fighting.
"This signals that the game is on, and that we have to work very hard in the months ahead to make sure a majority of Floridians understand that high-speed rail is in fact a good thing for the state's economy," said Keith Lee Rupp, president of the pro-train Florida Transportation Association.
If the repeal effort backed by Gov. Jeb Bush and major corporations fails, construction on the first leg of the bullet-train system -- from Orlando to Tampa -- could begin as early as next summer. Plans call for the system eventually to link Tampa, Orlando, Fort Lauderdale and Miami.
Meanwhile, trial lawyers placed two proposals dealing with medical malpractice on the November ballot when their petition drives also passed the signature threshold Thursday.
The first would give patients the right to review records of "adverse medical incidents" by doctors or health-care facilities. The second would require revocation of a doctor's license after a third malpractice judgment.
The rail project, which is estimated to cost billions, has been dogged with controversy since it was approved in a 2000 petition initiative. Bush and state Chief Financial Officer Tom Gallagher were among many who contended that it would be too expensive to build and maintain.
The state would be called upon to commit $75 million a year to the rail project under a plan prepared by Fluor -Bombardier, a Canadian contractor partnership that is part of its construction consortium.
"Florida voters will now have the opportunity in November to repeal this fiscally irresponsible project," said Gallagher in a news release Thursday.
The petition drive caught a "groundswell of support" with more than 650,000 Floridians signing to place the repeal measure on the November ballot, he said.
"We've built a strong bipartisan, grass-roots coalition, and we will work hard to win in November and stop this financial train wreck," Gallagher said.
As of Thursday, the state Division of Elections reported , the repeal measure petitions had 499,610 verified signatures. Only 488,722 were needed to make the ballot. The adverse incident provision had 504,545 signatures, and malpractice had 521,960.
In response to approval of the train petition, C.C. "Doc" Dockery, a Lakeland millionaire who began the bullet-train effort and has been fighting the petition drive, contended Thursday that the group formed to promote the repeal of the rail proposal --Derail the Bullet Train -- violated state laws by improperly soliciting signatures in its successful statewide petition campaign.
Dockery filed three complaints with the Florida Election Commission, saying DEBT should pay a $1,000-per-signature penalty.
In addition, Rupp noted the "irony" that the rail system's leading opponent, Gov. Bush, was in Canada on Thursday to promote trade with Florida.
"It must make things a bit awkward up there as he is trying to convince Canadians to do business with Florida even as he is leading the effort to kill a deal involving one of Canada's most respected companies," Rupp said.
Bush, who this week signed an agreement to promote greater economic cooperation between Quebec and Florida, told Canadians that he has reservations about the structure of the system's financing arrangement and the "tremendous liabilities" the state would have to take on.
The Legislature appropriated small amounts for the rail project in three successive sessions. Bush vetoed a portion of the last appropriation, and the Legislature did not set aside more funds during this year's session.
Foes of the bullet train have built a war chest of at least $1.4 million to fight it.
Leading contributors include political allies of Bush as well as major corporate players including Universal Orlando, and SeaWorld Orlando owner Anheuser-Busch. They were miffed that the train's proposed route bypassed them and the International Drive tourist strip in favor of a path that led straight to competing attraction Walt Disney World.
Road- and bridge-building interests and three railroad companies also kicked in substantial contributions to fight the proposed high-speed rail.
The Associated Press contributed to this report. Wes Smith can be reached