Maybe they should issue a few tickets for littering I bet that would get people to stop.
Maybe they should just put the trash cans back!
While in Cape May I rode the Sea Shore Line excursion train from Cape May to Cape May Courthouse. It was a nice ride that used restored Budd DMUs (I think they were Budds, at least). I talked to someone else who was on the ride, who said there used to be trains that ran all the way from Philadelphia to Cape May using the Sea Shore Line's ROW for the last part of the trip.
This made me wonder how hard it would be to restore service on this route? Even if the service only operated during the summer, or even on the big weekends of Memorial Day, 4th of July, and Labor Day it would make getting to Cape May a lot easier. As it stands, I plan never to go there on a 3-day weekend again, but I'd go if there were a way to get there without spending 6 hours to go 92 miles. I wonder how many other people feel this way. If there are many, the Shore could be losing business for lack of a rail connection. (Not that there aren't plenty of people there spending money anyway, but a rail line could make Shore businesses even more profitable.)
Anyway, I'm curious as to where the route of the former service was, and if it shared any of the current Atantic City ROW. If so, restoring service might not be that hard logistially. Would it be hard politically? Is there any interest or will to restore Cape May service? Just wondering after being in car a lot longer than I wanted to be.
Mark
Yes, they were Budds.
The PRR and Reading ran competing service from Philly/Camden to Cape May until they merged their South Jersey operations into the Pennsylvania-Reading Seashore Lines during the Depression.
The P-RSL service used the current NJT Atlantic City line from Philly to Winslow Junction, then the existing Conrail Shared Assets to Tuckahoe, and finally the existing NJDOT track to Cape May. The CMSL leases their track from NJDOT. The CMSL is trying to get the money to rehab the track between Tuckahoe and Cape May Court House. They recently rehabbed the first five miles from Tuckahoe to Woodbine Junction for future service to three potential freight customers at Woodbine.
The track from Woodbine Jct to Cape May Court House is restricted to 5 mph with no passengers allowed.
Tony Macrie, General Manager of CMSL, wants to find the money to rehab the rest of the track and operate into Hammonton, where he has lived all his life, to connect with the NJT Atlantic City line, thus providing Philly to Cape May service. There are other short line (freight) railroads in NJ that oppose this because this would siphon potential money from their operations. They consider seasonal passenger service to be a frivolous waste of money.
Traffic to Cape May on summer Saturday afternoons gets gridlocked on two-day weekends, too.
Mark
I have a solution.
Why not take you're bicycle to the Shore. I did the same thing this weekend and did not spend six hours each way fighting traffic on the highways. Myself and a couple of cyclists took the NJ Transit train from Newark to Long Branch. Along the way, I was the long line of cars you were talking about on the highway but there were no tears coming out of my eyes.
Once arriving at the Long Branch station, we rode all past all the beaches (Avon, Long Branch, Asbury Park etc). There were looooong lines of cars looking for parking but that was not the case for us as there were plenty of bicycle racks.
We're going to do the Cape May trip in a couple of weeks. I wouldn't petition NJ Transit for more rail/bus service because that is a waste of time. (I have plenty of experience) The mayor of Cape May would have to become involved in such negotiations and I suspect they don't want the Atlantic City crowd and prefer the motorists instead.
Let's see ... according to the original post, driving from Philadelphia to Cape May took six hours to cover 92 miles. It would have taken less time to bike the entire distance! So much for the "freedom" of driving.
You're right. I didn't see that at first. It would have been better to take Septa to Atlantic City and then ride to Cape May. Cape May is 50 miles away so I don't think he would have made it.
In his case, why not take a Taxie?
That's NJT to Atlantic City.
ooops... You're right again.
Brilliant. Other than the fact that the idea of having a train is far better and would get you there faster still.
Mark
I really wish Amtrak would just start their NYP and BOS to Cape Cod service again, but we know they don't have the cash to do it.
How much did Amtrak cost to arrive at Cape Code? An even better question would be how much would Amtrak charge today to Cape Code?
We all know Amtrak does not have the cash to do it but it's more likely people would not pay for that kind of money when renting a car might be cheaper.
What is traffic like on the roads to Cape Cod? The reason I want a train to take to Cape May is that the traffic is so horrible on the roads between Philly and the Shore. If traffic is as nightmarish on the roads to Cape Cod, a train would have a lot of appeal.
Mark
Amtrak used to run seasonal Cape Codder service but the track speeds were quite slow so it's not clear that it would've been any faster than driving even with the interminable traffic jams. In addition, its final incarnation ran to/from NY via Providence, with a change of trains for passengers going to/from Boston. That limited the appeal to what would have been a substantial market.
: (
Mark
That's not the "Jersey Shore" ;-> You're talking about Sandy Hook to Seaside Heights in that case . . .
BTW, the only way to get proper rail service between Philly and Cape May is to lobby for it, and lobby hard. There are organizations like NJ-ARP and DVARP that specialize in that. See if they can't help you to get friends organized into lobbying the state of NJ into getting CMSL running into 30th Street Station . . .
Good one. I think I'm going to join especially after seeing a picture of the HBLR. If anyone is going to make rail service to Cape May possible, it would have to be NJ Transit.
Mark
I haven't been to Cape May in years. What's so different about Cape May that would force you to suffer though 6 hours of traffic? Seriously. What's so special about those beaches from the ones at Long Branch? Is there some kind of amusement park there that I don't know about? Are they giving away free food? Are the hotels dirt cheap? Are the women running around naked on the beach?
Folks. Don't you get it? There's no need to visit this non-transit friendly resort town in the middle of no-where. Let the motorist spend 6 hours trying to get to this wasteland.
We are more educated and use fast railroads and avoid wasting our lives on highways. The motorist can sit. The original poster said he would never spend six hours again to visit that place and has thus become "Enlightened".
I also might like to add, we should NOT inform our "secret" to any more motorist or the trains will be packed. I am greedy and enjoy sitting on the train while watching lines of parked cars moving 10 mph on the freeway. ;-)
From what I gather, it's a pleasant, reasonably upscale area, more sedate but less tacky than places like Wildwood.
Which means it's almost like being in The Hamptons. I'm no big fan of summertime resorts, however, personally I prefer a place that has a boardwalk, concession stands, and "real" people as opposed to a place where Yuppies cruise in their BMW's sipping Evian while gawking at the Victorian architecture.
Mark
Mark
Actually, in the world.
Regards,
Jimmy
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/wn_report/story/198667p-171546c.html
"Feds flag fishy trainspotting
There has been "a dramatic increase in surveillance of trains and rail infrastructure" by suspicious characters, a Homeland Security source reveals.
In one state alone, investigators tell U.S. News & World Report, there were 16 incidents of bizarre surveillance over a recent 30-day period.
"Among the incidents: suspects videotaping or photographing subway cars, rail platforms and switching boxes," the magazine reports.
The development may help explain why New York officials recently proposed a ban on picture-taking in the city's subways. U.S. News describes other frightening events:
Two men tried to deliver flowers to a secured area next to a rail structure. When challenged, the men refused to identify themselves, the magazine said. Two men later offered a $500 bribe to enter the same deck and were seen videotaping the area.
License plates of two different people seen watching rail structures were traced back to individuals on federal watch lists.
Concerns for the nation's trains and subways jumped after the detonation March 11 of 10 bombs on a Madrid commuter line.
The terror attack took 191 innocent lives.
Owen Moritz
Originally published on June 1, 2004 "
We were all thinking that but no one was saying it...
wayne
18th century; 1789, to be exact.
B. The photographs already exist, on this site and others - shall we shut down this site and other railfan sites, and forbid the publication of books containing pictures and diagrams of transit facilities and landmarks?
Way back in the pre-9/11 world when we were still sane, we had this very good idea that certain things, such as sensitive areas on military bases or nuclear power plants, or such high-security areas and events as the Capitol Building during the State of the Union Address (during which the President, VP, most of the cabinet, virtually all of both houses of Congress, and a majority of the Supreme Court, as well as numerous dignitaries, occupy the same room), secrecy and security were so important that classifying any information about it and plugging up any leaks by force was considered a valid thing to do. If protecting the security of these sites and events required the severe abridgment of what would normally be considered the civil liberties of citizens, so be it. It still is a reasonable thing to do, perhaps even more so today than before, and I agree - nobody needs to know the codes to set off a hydrogen bomb. Nobody needs to have access to X kilograms of weapons-grade plutonium for any reason. Anyone can be denied access to the Capitol during the State of the Union, for any reason, at the Secret Service's discretion.
But now in the post-9/11 paranoid world, "soft targets" such as transit hubs, popular tourist attractions, and all sorts of crowded places such as malls and restaurants are gradually beginning to be lumped in with the classic "hard targets," and thus subject to the same draconian security restrictions. In other words, you were never allowed to take pictures of nuclear weapons at missile silos (in fact you weren't allowed access at all unless you had high-level security clearances and a strict governmentally approved "need to know" reason to be there) - now the same sorts of restrictions, to varying (and ever-increasing) extents, as those around ICBMs and nuclear stockpiles, are being put into effect at the Statue of Liberty, our airports, water treatment facilities and the like. You now go through just about as much poking, prodding, frisking and harassment trying to get onto an airplane as you do trying to get into a prison to visit a loved one. Prisons have a very important reason to go through the security measures they do for guests - they're full of criminals, after all. Must prison-style tactics be used on every citizen who tries to board an airplane? Security barriers and checkpoints to get into Times Square for New Year's Eve or the Superbowl, both widely attended events by hundreds of thousands of ordinary citizens, are rapidly becoming comparable to the security applied at the Capitol during the State of the Union address (in fact, the Secret Service was in charge of security at the last Superbowl). A man was arrested and detained for months because he took a picture of himself on a mountaintop that happened to include parts of a water treatment facility in the distant background - this is the sort of thing you'd expect to have happen if you took a picture of yourself with Area 51 featured prominently in the background. People who take openly pictures of subways, and have done so for years, with the explicit legal approval of the MTA, are now treated with the same suspicion as people who used to snap clandestine pictures inside government buildings.
Should the same "need to know" basis and strict classification of information related to the construction of nuclear bombs apply to track maps of the New York City Subway?
Should the same legal repercussions be in effect for someone possessing pictures of subway stations and rolling stock as for someone who illegally possesses critical highly classified information about the workings of a nuclear reactor?
Should people trying to board an airplane be subjected to the same harassment and abridgments of privacy and civil liberties as inmates in a prison?
This is what the authoritarians in society have had a major hard-on for for many years, and 9/11 and the ensuing paranoia have given them a bully pulpit from which to proclaim their scaremongering and legislate their totalitarian ideals.
The bottom line is, unless someone takes a stand and says that we can't allow ourselves to be ruled by this paranoia, where "soft targets" are guarded just as much as the classic "hard targets," and our rights around these "soft targets" (many of which we, by necessity, spend a great deal of time in and around every day) are abridged just as much as they would be in a prison, a military base, or a restricted area in a nuclear power plant, we're rapidly headed for a police state, one in which the rule is not that something is allowed unless prohibited by the government, but one in which everything is prohibited unless explicitly allowed by government dictum. And that is not a world I would like to live in.
While I agree with almost all of your post, I have to say that airport security isn't necessarily more intrusive today than it was pre-9/11. There's still the same metal detector screening as always. Baggage X-raying is new, of course, but that occurs largely out of public sight.
What I want to know is the following:
Suppose the screener says you have to go for a strip search (or some other intrusive search). Do you have the right to refuse?
After all, if you do, than anyone who is concealing something that would be revealed by such a search could escape scot-free. The security measures, while they prevented someone with contraband (which could be as simple as a nail file or cuticle scissor) from boarding, they weren't caught, and are free to try again another day.
And if you don't, that is, you do not have the right to leave of your own will and volition, then are you under arrest? If not, under what authority may they hold you there against your will?
At the same time, the SEPTA employee's motion detector was found at Powelton Yard near 30th Street Station. It was placed there to awaken him if his boss approached. Until the truth came out, the media considered it a terrorist device that could blow up a train by remote control.
NJT used the motion detector story and the numerous reports of suspicious photography to justify their ban on photography.
Chuck Greene
WRITE LETTERS to the Daily News, and to this Owen Moritz creature.
BOMBARD them with our facts, and let them know just how unfair and biased their coverage is.
Send Moritz a portfolio of our best artistic shots. Let him publish these in the Daily News, to demonstrate what sort of photography we do, and that we are not of evil intent.
Elias
Two men tried to deliver flowers to a secured area next to a rail structure. When challenged, the men refused to identify themselves, the magazine said. Two men later offered a $500 bribe to enter the same deck and were seen videotaping the area.
So someone accepted the bribe. Where are the two men now. If they were illegally in a secure area, why were they not arrested?
License plates of two different people seen watching rail structures were traced back to individuals on federal watch lists.
And? If the authorities are watching them (or us?!), why? If they are on the list and videotaping, were they not approached?
I’m sorry, but this article is just another of the fear & panic inducers, nothing useful or substantive.
The article doesn't say that... only that it was offered.
... this article is just another of the fear & panic inducers, nothing useful or substantive.
That I'll agree with.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Sounds like some sort of SubTalk meet-up :)
>>"Among the incidents: suspects videotaping or photographing subway cars, rail platforms and switching boxes," the magazine reports. <<
Great job guys - where's the pics?
This whole uproar about rail photography is bullshit!
wayne
Oh no! To stop every-day commuters knowing where they're going terrorists, we're going to have to install Labyrinth style moving walls. Oh well, at least it has a good soundtrack...
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Maybe I should start reporting new passengers that I have never seen before. Come to think of it, there are about 6 billion people on this planet that I have never seen before, so they might all be suspicious ............
Ashcroft will be happy when half the people in the country are working for the government watching the other half.
Ah, but how do they know they can trust the half that are doing the watching?
Quis custodiet custodes ipse? (As they used to say in the old days.)
I think that 1984 is upon us. George Orwell was just about completely right about Big Brother. He was a little early in the timing, that’s all.
You mean the Ashcroft Youth?
Homeland (In)Security......
The folks who gave us the "Terror Warning" in May, listing the WWII Monument Dedication, some big-wig meeting in June and the political conventions as "likely targets".
The WWII Dedication went off just like all the national events - NOTHING UNUSUAL HAPPENED!!!!!!!!!!!
And, to top it all off H(I)S didn't raise the colour code to orange. How silly of them.
The car was 6100 and was at the north end of a southbound train. The train was on track 3 and was signed as an R. It was empty and was just pulling out (probably a put-in for further down the road).
That should raise some eyebrows when the train eventaully haeds northbound.
It was used around 1987. It was a 4th Avenue Local to Chambers St, Manhattan. I know some people who wish it would come back again. It was good because now you have to make a transfer to the M at 36th St. But I just don't think there is a good enough demand to bring it back. And even if there was, they would have to change the rollsign to a brown R circle, because the MTA doesn't use diamonds anymore.
-Broadway Buffer
Also your fears are largely baseless. If America would adapt either the Disney ROW construction or Japanese safety standards as a code for all systems created in the US, both problems you cite would be accounted for. Disney's guideway features a catwalk inbetween the two beams, an imperative with their inferior suspension and cabin style interior. Japanese monorails on the other hand use a mandatory walk-through articulated design, and end doors are specified on all systems. This allows passengers to exit onto the guideway, usually a good 3 feet wide, as a last chance emergency exit. Also the walk-through articulation allows passengers to escape from something like a fire without the choke points of end doors that most subway stock imposes.
I'm not saying that monorails should be out to replace freight railroads, or that exsisting systems should be torn out and replaced with monorails (we'll see how the Central Link does). But certainly in rail infrastructre poor areas, like Seattle, Las Vegas, and Phoenix, all of which grew up after the highway boom and didn't have the luxury of being competed for by multiple railroads, monorails make a lot of sense when deciding modal choice. You're looking at a mode that provides the same capacity as a heavy rail train of the same length, is cheaply and easily grade separated, is capable of performance at or above heavy rail trains, which cannot derail, and which often offers costs at a mere fraction what it'd cost to build a conventional heavy rail (or even light rail) system with the same features. At this point thanks to the FRA interchangibility is gone, they don't even deliver rolling stock on it's own wheels anymore, so why bother to keep the two wheel convention in a city with little or no history with that convention (Seattle's never successful trolleys met their ignominious fate at a bonfire in 1941), when there's a cheaper, safer and all around vastly superior mode out there which other countries have proved is a safe and reliable system?
Then explain the Australian immigrants running around by the Seattle waterfront. They're painted green, and they most certainly are trolleys.
A 3-foot wide beam, up in the air, no handrails, is not too comforting for a person with even the mildest aversion to heights. The more you layer on infrastructure to abate a monorail's deficiencies, the more you increase its cost and maintenance, countering the main argument of many advocates.
SEATTLE - An electrical short apparently sparked a monorail fire outside a Seattle museum that trapped as many as 100 people, officials said Tuesday.
Perry Cooper, spokesman for the city's monorail system, said both of the system's trains will remain out service indefinitely.
"This is the first time we've ever had a fire in the 42-year history of the monorail," Cooper said. "We want to make sure we know what happened to the Blue Train before we put the Red Train back out."
Cooper said the monorail fire was caused by a short in wiring to the electrical motor. "Right now we're trying to pinpoint exactly what that was," he said.
Firefighters evacuated dozens of passengers by ladder Monday night, but no one was seriously injured when the monorail caught fire outside the Seattle Center's Experience Music Project, a rock 'n' roll museum. Thousands of people gathered at the center over the holiday weekend for the annual Northwest Folklife Festival.
Nine people were treated and released from a hospital, including a firefighter who injured a knee, Seattle Fire Department spokeswoman Helen Fitzpatrick said. About 40 people were evaluated at the scene for respiratory problems from the smoke.
The monorail, originally built for the 1962 World's Fair, runs through the museum on its path between the Seattle Center and downtown. The train stands 20 feet above ground.
Holly Schwartzmann, a 15-year-old passenger, told The Seattle Times she heard a pop and saw a spark that appeared to be coming up from the floor near a window.
"It really didn't take the Fire Department that long to show up," said the girl's mother, Marlene Schwartzmann. "But as the inside of the monorail turned pitch black, it began feeling like an eternity."
Had those aboard become desperate, "the outcome could have been very different," Fitzpatrick said. "No one jumped, which is a good thing."
It seems that the blue train was the one that was damaged.
Larry,RedbirdR33
(But couldn't post my predictions because the server was farked up :)
From what they described - metallic gerinding followed by a bang - it sounded like a good arc then shortout. And I bet the 'grinding' sounded a LOT like the third rail shoe arcing that you hear on the M-1/3s. Listen closely as the train goes through a switch slowly, you'll hear what I mean. The M-2/4/6s do it too at GCT, and with more 'punch' to it...
How does the dispatcher know?
Michael
Washington, DC
Enjoyed my weekend in NY
although, once time i was waiting for a C at 59th/CC and a B pulled in. the T/O had overshot the stop by about 2 feet, and was about to get out to hit the punch. i walked over there and did it for him, and he thanked me.
i'd say that's the exception though, not the norm.
Michael
Washington, DC
Keyby was a real way of life on the IRT though. :)
And yeah, they had a phobia about people keying by onto a blind curve even though there was a repeater in the curve. I suppose somebody missed it. :)
But noooooooooooooooooooooooooo.
If it was RUSH though, that would have been a given, and it would have been thrown back where it belonged. But as short-sheeted as the TA was then, anyone who COULD run a railroad was on the splits ...
Why?
Seriously, the ATTITUDE shift from "we move people" to "justify your position - what IS it that you guys do in that broom closet?" was a real BIE to those who'd plied the rails for decades. Silly rules, an insistence on pressed ties when the trains didn't work, and the evil empire of Dr. Ronan in everybody's face with an attitude. And that Mike Quill was dead and the "new" TWU just rolled over and died was seen by most as the "handwriting on the wall."
BTW that was the only time I ever saw that signal in question being red. I wish I could remember if that D train we were on was a solid R-32 consist or a mixed R-32/R-42 smorgasbord. It was right about the time mixed consists were commonly seen on the IND and BMT.
Those of us in NYCTA didn't take too kindly to the "new cars" looking like his fantasy LIRR A1A's (M-1's) and then everything ELSE got painted to look like them too.
But as to the keybys, *if* that signal was red, it meant that the train on the ramp was parked there. If it dropped to yellow-D, then it meant that the train ahead of you was starting to roll across the switches and you could CAREFULLY keyby there, just keep it SLOW since whatever way the train ahead of you was going, it was doing it on Columbus Circle Station Time ...
Dave B, if you're out there, are these currently approach-retaining
or advance-retaining?
Those old IRT key-by keys were very cool. They actually pressed
down on the tickler button of the stop magnet valve.
I've seen the old IRT keyers, I've had to do the Monster Mash trackside, but never saw one of THESE ...
There are newer circle-K signals installed to act as "advance bumper blocks" that have a key by button. some of these on the BMT have working buttons on the side, but that's all I know of.
Yeah, some have been rewired. The B'way middle tracks are a real hodge podge of DC and 3-p-AC. The are also some that just have the button disconnected...
designate spots where the tripper would go down on its own after a full stop
huh? ...conventional signal systems can't know if trains are moving or stopped... You're gonna be waiting all day if you're behind the IJ.
huh? ...conventional signal systems can't know if trains are moving or stopped... You're gonna be waiting all day if you're behind the IJ.
I don't know how the circuitry worked, exactly, but I believe that the presence of the train would start a timer going which would lower the trip and change the signal at a rate that would effectively force a full stop.
In operation, you'd pull to a stop just before the track joint. Then you'd release and bump the controller to SLOWLY pull ahead until your first axle and wheel actually bridged the insulated joint, prepared to stop again. The wheel shorting out across the insulated joint would cause the trip to drive down and the signal to clear (or not) major point being that you caused the trip to drive down whereupon you could enter the next block EXPECTING to find the ass end of the train ahead of you in your face.
It was necessary though to stop after hitting the IJ and watch your trip go down. This took a few seconds after crossing the IJ as "protection." If you took power and rolled, you'd hit the trip because there was a delay between the time you put your wheel across the IJ and the time the trip actually drove down. This allowed "tightening up" of the railroad and the ability to close in on your leader on a congested railroad, perhaps giving your follower a chance to actually get TO the platform behind you.
OK Unca Jeff and Unca Dave ... I turn over the controls. :)
Let me re-phrase what Selkirk said.
IND-style automatics are "advance retaining", meaning what
drives the stop arm down is occupancy of the track circuit
which it is protecting. This means the stop arm is always down
immediately behind a train, and that's why there is "overlap",
i.e. two reds protect the train. (It gets more complicated than
this, but it will suffice).
To "key-by" such an automatic signal, i.e. to make the arm drive
down, you must occupy the track circuit just beyond the signal.
This is made possible because the insulated joint which marks
the boundary between track circuits is actually a few feet before
the signal head and stop arm. So, if you pull up such that your
cab is even with the signal, the front axle will actually be in
the next track circuit and the arm will drive.
There is no timing device per se, other than the inherent delay
in the operation of the relays and stop mechanism, versus the
limited footage between the front axle crossing the joint and the
trip cock striking the arm.
LOL
Bob
Jimmy 8^)
Thank you for your e-mail correspondence.
With an eye toward customer safety and security, MTA NYC Transit is seeking MTA Board approval of several changes to the current Rules of Conduct, which govern customer conduct on subways, buses, and the Staten Island Railway (SIRTOA).
Among these pending safety and security proposals is a general ban against photography and videotaping in the system, except for members of the press holding valid Working Press identification cards issued by the New York City Police Department, or where written authorization has been provided by MTA NYC Transit.
The world, and consequently our operating environment, has changed dramatically. These yet to be approved changes to our rules, the first in almost a decade, are intended to enhance safety and security for both our customers and employees.
Feedback from our riders is important to us. Before final approval is sought from the full MTA Board, customers will have forty-five days to comment on the proposed changes following publication in the New York State Register -the official publication of the New York Department of State. The complete text of the proposed changes is now available on the MTA web site ( mta.info ) during the comment period. Comments will be made part of the record and forwarded to the MTA Board for consideration.
Sincerely,
Douglas R. Sussman
Director
Community Affairs
--- Original Message ---
Customer (AEM7) - 05/31/2004 05:06 PM
I am writing to suggest that the proposed Section 1050.9(c) rewrite should adopt a system where positively identified members of the public, after applying for a permit from MTA, should be permitted to take photographs of MTA equipment during a specified time period.
I am a published transit researcher, and have presented at TRB on multiple occasions, and I am involved with an ongoing TCRP project. I have on occasions taken pictures of NYCT equipment (or used photos taken by others, of NYCT equipment -- signalling, track, vehicles) to make a point in my papers and reports. NYCT have been highlighted as "industry best practice" in some areas through the use of these photos. I have also been able to illustrate issues such as signal sighting through the use of NYCT photos and photos from European systems.
The photo ban, while it may be politically necessary, it will do harm to the research community. Even though I don't actually take may photos, using others' photos definitely enhances my research and improves the quality of my work. I am suggesting that MTA follows the MBTA practice in this area -- by issuing photo permits (for a nominal fee), for those who seek it and are prepared to present at least two forms of positive ID at the MTA headquarters, one of which must be a photo ID.
I would appreciate your response on this matter. Thank you for your time and attention.
Best Regards,
AEM7
Transit Analyst
Rational during WWII was to prevent the enemy of knowing about movements of troops, equipment and other material, and to prevent their knowing of the martialing points.
Clearly this sort of information is of no interest to an enemy that does not have bomber aircraft, or who can move troops to oppose a forced landing. But as it typical, military and security planers always bend their efforts to fighting the last war.
For a terror bomber just leaving a back pack somewhere is sufficient. They do not need thotographs to do that.
The only thing that I can think of is that terrorists might disguise themselves as photographers so that they might loiter in a place for a time. "No officer, I'm not a terrorist, I'm a photographer, see, here is my camera."
That posibility has already been negated by police inspection of photographers. The police OUGHT to question ANYBODY loitering on a train platform. But then a hobbist with ID in order is not a threat.
But even if a loiterer did have a bomb, the officer is not going to inspect the bag is he. No, he will copy down ID information, perhaps do na NCIC and INS check, and bid the fellow a good day. Either that or his wife and/or family will get a letter of condolances from the Mayor.
Honor your cops. But damn it, they ought to honor our rights too!
Elias
1. There have always been "authoritarians" in our society. September 11th has given them an opportunity to assert themselves, and most people have acquiesced to this.
2. It probably wouldn't have mattered this time, but when trying to make a case for your point of view, you'd do better to avoid jargon and acronyms which may or may not have meaning to the reader, and to sign a real name.
Thank you for your e-mail correspondence.
With an eye toward customer safety and security, MTA NYC Transit is seeking MTA Board approval of several changes to the current Rules of Conduct, which govern customer conduct on subways, buses, and the Staten Island Railway (SIRTOA).
Among these pending safety and security proposals is a general ban against photography and videotaping in the system, except for members of the press holding valid Working Press identification cards issued by the New York City Police Department, or where written authorization has been provided by MTA NYC Transit.
The world, and consequently our operating environment, has changed dramatically. These yet to be approved changes to our rules, the first in almost a decade, are intended to enhance safety and security for both our customers and employees.
Feedback from our riders is important to us. Before final approval is sought from the full MTA Board, customers will have forty-five days to comment on the proposed changes following publication in the New York State Register -the official publication of the New York Department of State. The complete text of the proposed changes is now available on the MTA web site ( mta.info ) during the comment period. Comments will be made part of the record and forwarded to the MTA Board for consideration.
Sincerely,
Douglas R. Sussman
Director
Community Affairs
Auto-Response - 05/31/2004 02:55 PM
Feedback from our riders is important to us. Before final approval is sought from the full MTA Board, customers will have forty-five days to comment on the proposed changes to the Rules of Conduct following publication in the New York State Register -the official publication of the New York Department of State. The complete text of the proposed changes will be made available on the MTA web site during the comment period. Comments will be made part of the record and forwarded to the MTA Board for consideration.
You will receive a similar follow-up notice in your e-mail “in-box”.
Customer (Wayne L. Whitehorne) - 05/31/2004 02:55 PM
To whom it may concern,
I wish to take this opportunity to express my displeasure regarding the proposed ban on photography within the NYCT facilities, particularly the subway system. As an amateur photogapher with a body of work in progress consisting of many photos of stations and trains, (a number of which are published) I feel that this is over-reaching and over-reacting to a perceived threat, which is minimal at best. I feel you should reconsider this ban, and if you do impose it, allow those like myself, who use their cameras to document and record the subway's history, to obtain official permission to continue to do so.
Thank you for your consideration,
Wayne L. Whitehorne
Question Reference #040531-000028
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Needless to say I am VERY unhappy with this form-letter response.
wayne
The MTA is no doubt receiving hundreds, and perhaps thousands, of comments on this proposal. You can't realistically expect each person to receive a hand-crafted response, particularly while they're still in the early part of a 45-day comment period. At the end of the comment period, let's hope there's enough uproar to force a re-assessment.
I was under the impression that the 45-day period has not yet started.
It's a damm sinfull joke!!!!
They encourge feedback which is responded to with an automated response system?
Somethings wrong here.....very very wrong.
I don't know a damm thing about photography but it makes me want to go out & buy a camera & head to the city & just snap away!!!!
Jimmymc25
ps....okay....so I'm not a photographer.......but what can I do to help?
A canned response is better that no response. You can see that someone at least read your letter enough to choose the appropriate canned response!
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE.
Recently you requested personal assistance from our on-line support
center. Below is a summary of your request and our response.
Subject
---------------------------------------------------------------
No on photo ban
Discussion Thread
---------------------------------------------------------------
Response (Doug Sussman) - 06/01/2004 10:23 AM
Dear psa188:
Thank you for your e-mail correspondence.
With an eye toward customer safety and security, MTA NYC Transit is
seeking MTA Board approval of several changes to the current Rules of
Conduct, which govern customer conduct on subways, buses, and the Staten
Island Railway (SIRTOA).
Among these pending safety and security proposals is a general ban
against photography and videotaping in the system, except for members of
the press holding valid Working Press identification cards issued by the
New York City Police Department, or where written authorization has
been provided by MTA NYC Transit.
The world, and consequently our operating environment, has changed
dramatically. These yet to be approved changes to our rules, the first in
almost a decade, are intended to enhance safety and security for both
our customers and employees.
Feedback from our riders is important to us. Before final approval is
sought from the full MTA Board, customers will have forty-five days to
comment on the proposed changes following publication in the New York
State Register -the official publication of the New York Department of
State. The complete text of the proposed changes is now available on
the MTA web site ( mta.info ) during the comment period. Comments will
be made part of the record and forwarded to the MTA Board for
consideration.
Sincerely,
Douglas R. Sussman
Director
Community Affairs
Customer - 06/01/2004 10:01 AM
This comment is submitted as a formal protest against the proposed
photo ban. Please add the comment into the official record of the
proceedings. I agree with the official statement of the Straphangers Campaign
that reads "We respect the need for security in the transit system, but
believe that there are important values in having photographers document
life and conditions on the subways and buses." Furthermore, as
Straphangers also points out, the MTA's own web site is sponsoring an
exhibition of photographic images on the history of the subway. It's more than a
bit inconsistent with this ill-conceived photo ban. Let's work on
making the subway system more secure by going after the bad people, not
innocent photographers.
Auto-Response - 06/01/2004 10:01 AM
Feedback from our riders is important to us. Before final approval is
sought from the full MTA Board, customers will have forty-five days to
comment on the proposed changes to the Rules of Conduct following
publication in the New York State Register -the official publication of the
New York Department of State. The complete text of the proposed
changes will be made available on the MTA web site during the comment period.
Comments will be made part of the record and forwarded to the MTA Board
for consideration.
You will receive a similar follow-up notice in your e-mail “in-box”.
Question Reference #040601-000026
---------------------------------------------------------------
MTA Service: MTA-Wide
Category: Rules of Conduct Comment
Contact Information: psa188@yahoo.com
Date Created: 06/01/2004 10:01 AM
Last Updated: 06/01/2004 10:23 AM
Status: Closed
Date/Time of Event:
Location of Event
---------------------------------------------------------------
Your pal,
Fred
Your pal,
Fred
Your pal,
Saliva
"Brian Wilson"
Drove downtown in the rain nine-thirty on a Tuesday night,
just to check out the late-night record shop.
Call it impulsive, call it compulsive, call it insane;
but when I'm surrounded I just can't stop.
It's a matter of instinct, it's a matter of conditioning,
It's a matter of fact.
You can call me Pavlov's dog
Ring a bell and I'll salivate- how'd you like that?
Dr. Landy tell me you're not just a pedagogue,
cause right now I'm
[Chorus]
Lying in bed just like Brian Wilson did
Well I'm lying in bed just like Brian Wilson did...
---------------
That's the only Pavlov I've ever heard of. Whoa, the next line talks about salivating! That's wild. What does it all mean?
Your pal,
Fred
I've been leaving on my things
So in the morning when the morning bird sings
There's still dinner on my dinner jacket
'Til the dinner bell rings
Experimental dog
Salivating dog
Good dog
Waiting for the dinner bell to do the bell thing
Dinner bell, dinner bell ring
Bags of mail are dumped on tables after being opened by a machine in the mail room that pulls the contents and staples the envelope to the back. NOBODY looks at the envelopes until the end process after the "mail" has been removed. People seated at tables grab each "letter" and skim it to see if it's "Fer or ag'in" and does a hashmark on a yellow legal pad. The letter is then removed from the envelope, and thrown away. The ENVELOPE then goes into a "fer or ag'in" BOX.
The "Fer or ag'in" boxes and their contents then go off to "clerical" where a "Thank you for writing FOR, we agree with you and will consider your thoughts" or "Thank you for writing AGAINST, we agree with you and will consider your thoughts" form letter is attached, stuffed in an envelope and mailed out.
When a political agency inspires controversy or correspondence, the numbers ARE tallied up "Fer or ag'in" and a single page report of "responses" is generated for review by the agency heads. That's as far as it goes though. What will COMPEL an agency to pay attention comes NOT from the public, but from the POLITICIANS ...
The priorities are as follows for an agency to decide in order of whose opinion matters the most:
1. Second Floor (Paturkey)
2. Senate (Joe Bruno)
3. Assembly (Shelly Silver)
4. Lobbyists
5. The "regulated" if a regulatory agency
6. Grandstanders who go on TV
7. Grandstanders who go on radio
8. Reporters
9. The "great unwashed."
10. Al Sharpton
Now one has to wonder why I added Al Sharpton at the bottom - reason being simply that I've worked with Al Sharpton over the years and I've always found him to be intelligent, articulate, and genuine. His "bomnbast" for the media is just his way of getting coverage. When the cameras go away and you sit down with him, he's a VERY smart man and a genuinely good soul. However, agencies will go out of their way to ignore him and his constituents. I've always liked the guy. VERY much.
But there you have it - bottom line is "the PUBLIC be damned" is the motto of this republican administration and its agencies. The *ONLY* way to get your point heard at ALL is for YOUR opinion to come from the GOVERNOR'S office, or lacking that, assigned in the pecking order listed above. Paper mail isn't much better than Email as far as state agencies go. It *WILL* impress the ELECTED, and it *WILL* impress the MEDIA ... but the trolls in an agency don't even READ it, much less respect it. Means NOTHING but MORE WORK to them. Agency folks *HATE* paper mail ... with a PASSION. :(
POLITICIANS on the other hand feel COMPELLED to respond.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Bill "Newkirk"
wayne
I was on a committee that helped to re-write North Dakota's Rules and Regulations for Nursing in compliance with new legislation.
Yes, the board will read every message, and a summary of them will be presented entered in the proceedings.
It is unrealistic to expect that they would yet have been read by a board member. Yet is it not nice to have some response from them, even if it is an automated response acknowledging that they received you message.
Keep the pressure up. Get press space for your position. reply to those with a contrary position. Keep it in the public eye.
Elias
Public opinion forced us to back off of one our most cherished rules. We tried to make an end run around the STOOPIT legislature, but there was too much public outcry. That particular part of the rule did not get changed.
Elias
No, it is an automated response. They said that it would be. You think a computer cannot see the word "photo*" in your message, and answer with this message, then you have better go back to DOS 2.0
: ) Elias
And some of the letters posted here wern't ???
: ) Elias
Well I have decided to write to the Transit Museum that if this ban goes into effect then I intend to cancel the Sustaining Membership that I have maintained since they first opened up memberships.
Your pal,
Fred
Thanks for the good, funny, phonetic spelling ("Ritchwoot") of my old home neighborhood (1955-1991).
I myself was in Ridgewood, the miserable humid gray rainy morning of this past Friday May 28th, and the last thing I felt like doing was sightseeing or rail fanning, so I was in and out as quickly as possible, though I did ride the M from Forest Avenue to Chambers St. in lower Manhattan when I was done with business in Ridgewood. So your post and wonderful photos were the positive answer to the "downer" of that morning.
There is a great article about the LIRR Montauk Branch and its Fresh Pond station in the "Our Neighborhood" column of the Times Newsweekly (former Ridgewood Times). Here is the link :
http://timesnewsweekly.com/
There are some great photos, including one of an LIRR steam locomotive in action.
Your "Ritchwoot" makes me think of "Rich wood" and "Witch Root", also the parody version of "The Witches Of Eastwick" : "The Witches of Bushwick".
Which root ? Take your pick !
GP38 Chris, I've always thought of the Forest Pork Store as Ridgewood's own little version of the "Piggly Wiggly" supermarkets down south.
We did it!
It took nine and a half hours of riding on PCC 4549 but we rode through all the possible directions of all three grand unions in one day! It was a lot of fun. I think this ties the all night PCC charter from several years ago as being the most memorable I've been on.
-Robert King
BOB
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
And, obviously, it worked.
If anyone would like to be on a mailing list for any trip we might put together for next year (probably over Memorial Day weekend, but that's not definite), you can send me a note off-list and I'll try to make sure you get notified early in the calendar year. There are some possibilities that were talked about last weekend.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
GO TO THE PUBLIC HEARING AT 347 MADISON AVE TOMMORROW FROM 4 TO 6 PM. IT'S ABOUT REQUESTING FEDERAL FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE FOR UPCOMING CAPITAL PROJECTS BUT YOU GUYS CAN REGISTER AND SPEAK OUT AGAINST THE PHOTO BAN INSTEAD. GIVE THEM HELL
I may not be able to attend (unless I can pre-register and tell them I will not be able to get there until after 6:30 PM.) but I though this would be something worthwhile to do.
Disrupt a hearing on funding of capital projects to voice your opinion about a ban on taking photos.
That's the best way to get the MTA to take railfans seriously.
And if you don't see the sarcasm in my statement above, rest assured it is there.
Save the rhetoric for the 45 day comment period.
It is ridiculous to go to a hearing about funding and talk about rules on taking pictures. That would be viewed as a disruption.
If there was some way to tie the photo ban into getting capital funding or preventing it then it would be relevant. Otherwise you will have wasted your time and everyone elses.
Enjoy!
1. Trains are a long tedious walk from the terminals. Exiting at Delta, I found few signs pointing me in the right direction.
2. It's slow going around the terminals. I doubt that the rental agencies & hotels will keep their buses from the terminals for long.
3. Signage & information in stations is pathetic. How is it that "they" invested in a system that drives itself but doesn't explain itself. And what's with the pathetic little LED signs.
4. I'm not cheap, but believe that the $5 fare reflects badly on New York City. There's no fare at any US airport I know of for the shuttle to public transit. It doesn't matter that it's a high tech steel wheeled thingamajig. It's a shuttle. Period. You find yourself in a room full of confusing machines (Jamaica.) Why no clearly marked turnstiles that take $5 bills and speed you on your way? Why does a newly arrived and tired passenger need to deal with a Metrocard machine and its multi-level menus? The least they can do with the recorded announcement is to remind people to have $5 ready. People don't read brochures.
Restoration of the LIRR Far Rock line would have been cheaper to build and would have served the public better.
Considering the condition of the Rockaway Line, it would have been very expensive to rebuild it, and it would be subject to NIMBY concerns.
And then, where would you run it? Penn Station is at capacity.
wayne
As for local service, it would be largely unsuccessful.
Everybody who fears for what activities in their neighborhood will do for their housing price is a NIMBY. We all don't want our housing price to drop below the price you bought your house for, something that could very well happen if something is built right next to it. Indeed, NIMBYs have done some good, they basically banded together in the 1970s to bring the Moses-era of massive highway projects which destroyed neighborhoods to a close, much more of our landscape would have been paved over had it not been for NIMBYs. I remember you once commenting that errecting 25kv catenary over the LIRR would lower property values for the people who live along the lines, that is a classic example of NIMBYism.
Now, these days NIMBYs have far too much say in how things get done, it's best if theres a balance between the project proponents and the people who will have to live with the project. This way the engineers working on the project are kept honest, you're not going to end up with a cross-bronx all over again, and stuff still will get done, right now NYC is practically paralized by NIMBYs who refuse to allow anything they see as hurting their neighborhoods. It's best to just learn to accept NIMBYs and hope that you can overcome their objections to your pet project, that is unless you want a garbage transloading facility (or worse, a dump) built right across the street from you.
As for Airtrain, it's clear that the PANJNY decided that highways make better neighbors than Queens residents. Thus there was relatively little objection to running Airtrain over the Van Wyck, after all the noise and pollution already were there, not some old overgrown strip in the backyard.
I suspected the decision to build over the Van Wyck Expressway was due to it's close proximity to the Jamaca (sp) station. There was no way they were going to an an elevated constructed in 2003. Those days are over.
Having said that, the train is just fine where it is. Most of the crying is simply because they now have to walk .05 mile instead of .05 feet to the ticket counter. It's time we all start walking more.
You would be right. Not only is the Van Wyck a first-class rail ROW, but it passes very near a major destination. From Jamaica Station you can get to most anywhere.
Sure he can. AirTrain goes to Jamaica which goes to Penn Station, which connects with Amtrak, which I think goes to Kansas City.
The real question would actually be though, why would Ron land at Kennedy in order to take Amtrak to Kansas City.......
Fine. But that makes it an extended airport people mover, not a real addition to the city transit grid. It's an oddball; a one trick pony. Disregarding the nimby factor for a moment, the rejuvination of the Rockaway Beach LIRR branch, with stops in Ozone Park, Woodhaven and, uh, Brooklyn Manor would have been like a "day-lighting" of the adjacent communities. With direct service to Manhattan in about a half hour. The issues of just how a commuter-class railroad car would get to those airline terminals would have been a quandry, true. But not unsolvable.
So I'd be willing to kill all the NIMBYs, just NOT IN MY BACK YARD!
:)
Also, do you think the A should be split up more ways than it is now?
The fare can be $2.50 with in the city all times and the fare will be $3.50 if its within the aiport. I think it'll be a far superior solution than the airtrain.
1.5 billion dollars and it wouldn't even go to Jamaica.
While I agree that they originally should have had the LIRR use the old Rockaway line as a direct connection to the airport, that's all water under the bridge, as it was foolishly abandoned in the 60's. That being said, your plan involves one transfer (if using the LIRR), from the LIRR to the "line that loops around the airport" as you called it. Well, the current AirTrain also involves that same one and only transfer (from the LIRR to the AirTrain at Jamaica, which loops the airport). The only difference is that the transfer point is at Jamaica, as opposed to right at the airport. Either way you still have to get off the LIRR train and get on the "airport loop".
but with trains going to Atlantic Avenue (lower manhattan)
Already had with AirTrain: LIRR Atlantic to Jamaica-"transfer"-AirTrain to Airport.
Long Island City and Grand Central (future)
Will work with Airtrain in future: LIRR Grand Central (or new Sunnyside) to Jamaica-"transfer"-AIrTrain to Airport.
it would offer a lot more options than a Jamaica / Howard Beach, and no 50000 transfers and carrying luggage on a packed subway train.
Both mentioned already operate under the destinations/starting points you mentioned for "what should have been" with the current AirTrain, and both with only one transfer. The Jamaica leg allows direct Manhattan access, no different and with no more transfers, than if the LIRR went to Howard Beach. Believe me, I also hate the fact that the Rockaway line was not used, however, what's done is done, and I really can't fault the current AirTrain system, as it does basically the same thing that the LIRR to Howard Beach would, with the same amount of transfers.
I cannot understand what all the hubbub is to have a single seat ride into Manhattan. With the coming of the Fulton St Transit Center, ESA, the finishing of the Jamaica rehab, and other projects, you're going to end up with a ADA compatible, easy transfer between nearly any train to a JFK bound one. Airtrain is of far more utility to the city as a peoplemover carrying people around queens than as a whole system providing a single seat ride into the city.
$5 by airtrain and $3.50 by LIRR or you can walk the one block pray the elevator and take a Packed E into the city.. I think those are "wonderful" options. So $8.50 in total for lugging around, I rather pay the big moeny and have a cab go from door to door. I mean we have to make it cheap at least with the JFK express it was $3.50 and you had a direct JFK Express to JFK express shuttle bus to the airport, at least it was cheaper. Why pay $8.50 to carry your luggage through midtown, the subway, and possibly on a packed train. You need incentive to back the cost.
Cheaper in today's money, but you are talking about $3.50 in 1970's or 80's dollars. That's not the same as $3.50 today. And then you still had to drag the luggage up and down the stairs of the subway and into and out of a bus for that $3.50 in 1970's dollars.
Yeah, but it will go from Grand Central to Jamaica and to Airtrain, with one transfer. That's the same as if the LIRR went from Grand Central to the airport, and you had to make one transfer to the airport circulator.
Sure it does. It matters to the millions of people in eastern Queens, Nassau, and Suffolk. Jamaica is a major hub. Right now Manhattan has direct access to AirTrain via the LIRR, and so does Queens, Nassau, and Suffolk. With your plan, sure Manhattan gets it's access (with the same one transfer they now have with AirTrain), but Eastern Queens, Nassau, and Suffolk looses theirs.
Airtrain cost 1.2 billion dollars, you're still talking about a airport peoplemover system costing a minimum of 500 million dollars in addition to a possibly 1 billion dollar plus rehab of the Rockaway line and connection to the airport. You're not likely to get a Airport peoplemover system for less than 500 million for an airport the size of JFK, and indeed I think my estimates are very conservatively low. You could be looking at 2 billion dollars easily to implement your plan, which would not serve passengers coming from the east, centralizes service in such a way that unless you're coming from two or three points in Manhattan you're SOL. Also now you're talking a mandatory two seat ride to your terminal unless you happen to be flying out of the terminal closest to the LIRR station.
The LIRR should do something along the lines of the Jones Beach - Freeport train/bus scenario at Ronkonkoma. Hell, it doesn't get much ridership now, true, even with only the one bus (S57) route. But as long as it would cost virtually nothing it's worth a try. Something like this could, ala the Jamaica Station planning, lead to a renovation of the streets immediately adjacent to the station. Right now it's basically an ad hoc collection of dusty older structures.
This would also be expensive. The stations would have to be wider to separate the two modes, and the stations would have to be longer.
Especially if the system was FRA-compliant.
I can't think any aspect of the project that would have been cheaper this way. To the contrary, it strikes me as more expensive.
I too think real estate interests lead to the building of an expensive SHUTTLE betw JFK and Jamaica.
The purpose of the JFK-Jamaica link was to provide a service that connected to the LIRR and midtown. Pretty simple, eh?
Someone may point out that the Piccadilly Line and the Heathrow Express both have stops, but when you get off at Terminals 1/2/3, you can have a very, very long walk to your actual terminal, and there is no inter-terminal circulator.
Sure, it'd only be 1.8 billion instead of 2 billion, probbably. The line would need a ground up rebuild. Plus all the terminal stuff at JFK would STILL have to be built. The Rockaway line would have required all new track, lots of dirt work, all new signals, all new substations, etc etc etc. Plus, you'd have a shared ROW with the A train, which the FRA won't allow.
Then, we'd have to pay union wages to have a two or three perrson crew run each train, complete with FRA regulations, and the requisite brake tests, slow curve speeds, high power consuimption as a function of high weight / acceleration demands, etc etc etc.
Oh yes, and it'd mean anyone going from anywhere on LI to JFk would have to take a train all the damm way into Penn, then change to a train on the way out. Really fun durring the rush, or are we simply going to not run airport service then?
IMHO, the 'one seat ride' BS is way overrated because it assumes that all of the system's usage origionates from Midtown.
When you look at the context in which the Airtrain had to be built, it really wasn't as stupid as a decision as it looks. For a bit more up front, the PA got a system that'll cost a heck of a lot less to run, and is more usable to passengers origionating on long island than a 'one seat' line would be.
You shouldn't be H about that O. How many people live (or have a hotel room or office) within walking distance of Penn Station?
You're assuming the planners are too stupid to realize that a majority of people coming into Penn Station use some other form of transit to reach their ultimate destination.
To the contrary, they are well aware of that. "One-seat ride" is just a convenient label. What it really means is "faster trip to midtown destinations." Whether it takes you one, two, or three seats to get there obviously depends on where you're going.
We've been through this before. Suffice to say you have no data whatsoever to support your opinion.
It would be a lot more constructive if you stated the reasons (or pointed us to the thread, if it's really true they were stated before). There are people on Subtalk who are actually willing to explain a point of view, rather than simply assuring us that the contrary opinion has no data to support it.
However, you and he are making the same type of claim. The only difference is that your preferred option is the one they actually built. Therefore, in the discussion here, both of you have supported your positions equally well; that is, both of you have presented no data whatsoever.
Actually, no. My argument was much broader. It included the fact that AirTrain had a ready, fully-funded sponsor whereas the Rockaway option did not; that AirTrain had a more suitable ROW; that AirTrain did not suffer the degree of NIMBY that the Rockaway option would (and this is a major contributor to expense); and that the Rockaway option would not be ready as quickly as AirTrain (because no plan had been put together for it and because without East Side access there is insufficient capacity).
Each of the above points is well documented. The expense estimates for actually building the Rockaway Line would depend on what approach was taken (which is highly NIMBY dependent).
Mitch has nothing to refute any of the above.
So your statement is mostly false.
It wasn't before, because you hadn't given your reasons. Now you've done so. I hope we can hear more of this from you in the future. My criticism is when you slam people for offering no data, and then offer none yourself.
In summary, I'd say that most of the "statements" made on SubTalk are based on personal feelings and assumptions. That means that if you want to have worthwhile discussions with people who make such statements, YOU'LL have to bring the proff to the table to disprove their personal feelings and assumptions. Don't expect them to come up with data when they obviously can't, and then don't be all like "well since he can't bring data, he has to be wrong and I have to be right." Do you follow what I'm saying?
It depends on the terminal. At Terminal 4, for instance, the AirTrain stop is built right into the building. You can't get much closer than that. At others, I agree, the planning seems to have been pretty feeble.
2. It's slow going around the terminals. I doubt that the rental agencies & hotels will keep their buses from the terminals for long.
It is considerably faster than the inter-terminal bus used to be.
3. Signage & information in stations is pathetic. How is it that "they" invested in a system that drives itself but doesn't explain itself.
Perhaps you can elaborate. It seemed pretty clear to me.
4. I'm not cheap, but believe that the $5 fare reflects badly on New York City. There's no fare at any US airport I know of for the shuttle to public transit.
There's at least one other: Newark.
It's a shuttle. Period.
Call it a head of lettuce, for all I care. The fare is $7, and they happen to collect it in two segments. It is considerably cheaper and more predictable than a taxi. It is considerably more convenient and predictable than a bus, but it is not as cheap as a bus.
You can moan all you want about the cost, but they had to pay for it somehow. The route around the terminals is free; the route to mass transit charges a fare that is competitive given the costs and drawbacks of the other transportation options available.
You find yourself in a room full of confusing machines (Jamaica.)
Not sure what you mean by this, but I believe the connection at Jamaica is still under construction.
Why no clearly marked turnstiles that take $5 bills and speed you on your way? Why does a newly arrived and tired passenger need to deal with a Metrocard machine and its multi-level menus? The least they can do with the recorded announcement is to remind people to have $5 ready. People don't read brochures.
This part I agree with - for non-residents this could be confusing.
Perhaps you can elaborate. It seemed pretty clear to me.
There are three different trains. I expect large "airport-size" signs explaining what goes where. There was an attendant to sort things out. What happens when there's no attendant?
There's at least one other: Newark.
Don't get me started on EWR.
You can moan all you want about the cost, but they had to pay for it somehow. The route around the terminals is free; the route to mass transit charges a fare that is competitive given the costs and drawbacks of the other transportation options available.
How did Hartsfield pay for their tram? DFW? How did Reagan, O'Hare & Midway pay for the subway to arrive at the airport proper? Little things like this create the impression that New York City is uncompetitive given the other cities than one can visit and/or do business in.
The walk at Midway from the Southwest Airlines gates is about a mile and entails walking through the parking garage (unless they redid this in the last year). Not exactly customer friendly! At O'Hare the CTA terminal is also a pretty good hike, depending upon your airline.
O'Hare and Midway have quite a hike to the 'L.'
Sometimes the "driver" takes a detour to the yard on Airtrain.
Matt
AirTrain was paid for by the $3 surcharge (tax) on tickets for flights using JFK.
Apparently it wasn't, or at least not all of it. Can you demonstrate that the $5 fare isn't paying for the AirTrain? You'd be making pretty big news!
There is no contradiction. The AirTrain has both capital costs and running costs.
Delta had been planning on demolishing terminals 3 and 4 and replacing them with a new modern terminal. The plans were indefinitely postponed after 9/11, and even though air traffic is recovering I doubt we'll see the new terminal anytime soon given DL's still-precarious financial position. What's significant as far as AirTrain is concerned is the fact that the system most likely was designed and built with the understanding that a new DL terminal was coming soon. The station serving terminals 2 and 3 was supposed to be more or less temporary, in other words, with the permanent station to be better integrated into the new terminal.
DL's spending about $25 million IIRC on renovations to terminals 2 and 3. I don't believe the idea for a new terminal is completely dead, but if and when it's built it probably will incorporate the existing terminals rather than replace them outright.
There are other AirTrain stops where the design is harder to justify. For instance, at JetBlue the AirTrain stop is right at the terminal building, but instead of fronting directly into the terminal, you have to walk outdoors around the corner to the main entrance.
True, but remember that Terminal 6 was getting only light use at the time AirTrain was being designed and built. JetBlue didn't start flying until 2000, and didn't have that many flights for its first year or two. It's only been about two years since B6 became a major presence and Terminal 6 became really busy.
That's not quite accurate. Terminal 6 was shared space between United and Jet Blue prior to 2002. Post 9/11, United consolidated all of their operations into Terminal 7.
If it was known that United was going to move their operations entirely to T7 (I don't know that it was or wasn't, but think that it wasn't) then perhaps that explanation makes more sense.
CG
That's not quite accurate. Terminal 6 was shared space between United and Jet Blue prior to 2002. Post 9/11, United consolidated all of their operations into Terminal 7.
If it was known that United was going to move their operations entirely to T7 (I don't know that it was or wasn't, but think that it wasn't) then perhaps that explanation makes more sense.
UA had been operating only its transcons out of Terminal 6, maybe ten flights a day or thereabouts. The terminal hadn't really been busy since TWA scaled back its JFK operations in the 1990's, before the rise of JetBlue that is. It's not surprising that the AirTrain designers figured there wouldn't be much use at the T5/6 stop. Of course, Terminal 5 is vacant to this day.
I'm not a big United flier, but T6 was pretty quiet the few times I was there, so the idea that they were only flying the transcons makes sense now that you mention it.
CG
America West might've been in Terminal 6 before moving to 7, but until the last few years they didn't have much of a presence at JFK. All I know about National is that the last time I flew JetBlue, in October 2002, I saw a couple of their (National's) aircraft at Terminal 7. Dunno if they had recently moved there. This was just a short time before National gave up the ghost.
Even accepting this as true, what could have been the point of designing the AirTrain stop the way they did? Obviously, by putting a stop there at all, there was a hope/plan that Terminal 6 would eventually return to full service. Why put a stop right at Terminal 6, but not provide direct egress into the building?
There was the possibility that Terminal 6 would be replaced by something better, as happened with Terminal 4's replacement of the old IAB. Unlike the landmarked Terminal 5, few people particularly liked 6.
-Philadelphia: Station right at the terminal-$5, terminal to city.
-Portland, OR: Ditto for Philly, except a bit cheaper.
-San Francisco: Same as Philly
-Chicago: (ORD): Except for T5, CTA subway is convenient and cheap. (MDW): Could be a bit better, but still worth it.
-St. Louis, MO: Station is right at the airport, very cheap.
-Cleveland, OH: Red line Station is in the terminal-can't beat that.
-Boston, MA: Take a shuttle bus; could be better, but still free.
-Dallas, TX: Trinity railroad Express, cheap & easy, yet infrequent
-Los Angeles, CA: Shuttle bus can be a pain, but still cheap.
-W. Palm Beach/Ft. Lauderdale/Miami, FL: All 3 airports have train service; cheaper to get from W. Palm Beach to Miami (~110 miles) than from JFK to Manhattan.
There are more, but I think IRMC.
The bus shuttle (airBART) from Oakland Airport to the Coliseum BART station charges $2.00 for the privilege. Of course, one has the option of waiting for the irregularly scheduled local transit bus for the same ride.
I prefer a system that "drives" itself instead of a costly one operated by a driver. Furthermore, the "system" recorded messages were pretty self explanatory.
The system is new..... I suspect once things get settled, those uniform workers will be gone. There are too many people employed doing nothing but that's how things start off at first. I agree. There is no economy.
(Obviously, anybody who owns a car or pays a cab fare is too poor to afford the $5 fare, so the millionaires who ride the A train have to fill in for them. At the same time, it's good public policy to discourage the use of the environmentally inefficient A train while promoting promoting the use of private automobiles instead.)
I know we've had this discussion before, but I still stand by what I've said already - the shuttle buses from Howard Beach were the pure essence of evil.
The shuttle buses DID exist. They were FREE. They WERE UNSPEAKABLY VILE AND LOATHESOME. And it was not glorious.
They would have to pay you to ride the buses for it to be a fair deal.
All right, I will be serious - the pre-AirTrain shuttle buses were so poor in so many respects that the fact they were free was nearly irrelevant.
I remember riding the shuttle buses long before the AirTrain was proposed, designed, or built. They were always terrible.
Of course, there's no excuse for that. They must have known for a long time that the buses were going to be eliminated, and it is foolish for anyone to expect to have the same job forever.
My last trip on the shuttle bus before AirTrain was the worst of all. From the time I got to the curb at JFK until I arrived at Howard Beach was 1 hour and 20 minutes-- just slightly shorter than my flight up from Fla. Very possibly my worst trip ever on a public vehicle. And that's including the night the Tampa trolley caught fire AND the day we made an emergency landing at Logan in Boston!!
I agree 100%. But this had nothing to do with fact that it was a FREE SHUTTLE BUS. Instead, it had all to do with the fact that the PANYNJ purposely chose to operate the shuttle buses in a crappy fashion. Had they wanted to, they easily could have kept the buses on schedule, reduced the headways, and omg, maybe even ADDED MORE BUSES! Therefore, the logical solution to the crappy shuttle bus service would have been to make the obvious improvements to the shuttle bus service, thereby reaching the performance of most every other bus route in the city. Think about it - if the crosstown buses in Manhattan can keep to 6 minute headways, and then when they can't, at least they bunch up providing a lot of capacity and all of the following stops, then WHY COULDN'T the PANYNJ's free shuttle buses at JFK have operated a bit better? The answer is the Port Authority didn't care to improve the service to basic, acceptable standards.
and the drivers were unresponsive to the most basic questions from weary travelers
Well AirTrain has NO drivers. Is that an improvement? If I didn't get a satisfactory answer from a bus driver, I would ask him the question again and again, in different ways, until I received an answer or ascertained that he honestly did not know the answer.
and often indulged in the morose delight of taking the many S-turns in the long-term parking lot on two wheels to give the passengers the thrill of falling over the stacked suitcases.
You are being facetious.
My last trip on the shuttle bus before AirTrain was the worst of all. From the time I got to the curb at JFK until I arrived at Howard Beach was 1 hour and 20 minutes-- just slightly shorter than my flight up from Fla. Very possibly my worst trip ever on a public vehicle. And that's including the night the Tampa trolley caught fire AND the day we made an emergency landing at Logan in Boston!!
A decently run bus service would solve that problem in a jiffy.
Having driverless trains and stations staffed with people whose sole job is to assist passengers is far preferable to having buses driven by people who always seemed to treat passengers as trespassers and/or people to belittle for their own entertainment.
Some of the dedicated staff in the stations are made out of cardboard. They are good for yelling at, but not good for answering questions. A bus driver is preferable in this instance.
Not too many people on AirTrain worry about it either.
They are passengers, not bus buffs.
I am adressing a statement made by a SINGLE SubTalker. Do you not understand that?
They are passengers, not bus buffs.
Are you saying I am a "bus buff?"
And let us not forget the penetrating aroma of diesel exhaust.
file me under FAN OF JFK SHUTTLE BUSES from Howard Bch.
1Cool9
You have to take airport passenger volume (and, to a lesser extent, employment levels) into account as well.
We must be careful not to mix "What should they have built?" and "What should they do now?". Let's say for argument's sake that they built the wrong thing. Well, that's interesting, but it's done now.
I'm not saying we shouldn't debate hypotheticals and might-have-beens on SubTalk. Such debates have value. But practically speaking, the only thing that matters in the short-to-medium term is, "What should they do now?"
The shittle bus did exist, and it was free, but it certainly wasn't glorious [or efficient]. You get what you pay for. Again, for anyone already buying an airline ticket, which is certainly not cheap, the $5 becomes irrelevant. It is hardly cheaper to drive a car to the airport (with today's gas prices), and pay for parking. And anyone planning to drive, will drive anyway, $5 or not.
How fast do you want the Air Train to go? This is not the Cyclone in Coney Island but a shuttle. If you want slow, take the monorail Shuttle to Newark Airport. The last time I rode the Airtrain (With my bicycle) we passed the bus with no problem.
>>>>4. I'm not cheap, but believe that the $5 fare reflects badly on New York City. <<<<<
No it's not cheap. BUT! Have you complained about the price of some of those slow express buses and lets not forget the price of a taxie?
My main compliant with AirTrain is the fare collection and how confusing that must be to someone exhausted after a long flight and perhaps unfamiliar with dollars, English, unsure exactly what the fare includes or how the Metrocard coordinates with local travel, etc etc. Good idea, bro! Equip the AirTrain gates to accept $5 bills and be done with it!! Period!! Complicating matters, even for us locals, is that AirTrain doesn't accept the unlimited Cards so I always have to coordinate the expiration of a weekly card with the purchase of a pay-per-ride with enough cash to cover the day or so before departure plus AirTrain- plus one more fare to get home after my return. Since the AirTrain isn't even part of the MTA system, why bother with the Metrocards at all?? It's unnecessarily complicated and just a huge P.I.A., if you ask me.
JewBlue? "LatterDaySaintsBlue" is more correct. Saw an interesting interview with JetBlue founder David Neeleman where he touched on his faith.
The concept is a good one: a single fare medium that works anywhere in the city: bus, subway, Roosevelt Island tramway, PATH, AirTrain...perhaps someday even LIRR and MNR.
But I agree, the execution leaves a lot to be desired.
And that day is today, sort of. When you buy a LIRR or MN ticket from a TVM, you have the option of getting the ticket printed on a Metrocard. I don't see how it can be more integrated, unless the LIRR or MN install faregates, and I don't see that happening (POP would be good).
Great idea. One drawback - how does that confused, exhausted foreign visitor get hold of a $5 bill? ATMs, in the airport as elsewhere, isue $20 bills. If you've used a bureau de change, either at your starting point or at JFK on arrival, you might get a $5 bill, but you might not, and you wouldn't know to ask for one specially, would you?
Perhaps a foreign traveler could pay for AirTrain (or Amtrak, the subway, NJT etc.) on-line or from a kiosk using his/her credit card, in a process which would automatically make the conversion for him/her.
1. Long hike from Train to Terminal
Delta is the worst of the terminals when it comes to AirTrain access. It was the worst when it came to accessing busses and the tradition continues with AirTrain. The problem is the location of the terminal buildings relative to the access roads. To get AirTrain any closer they'd have had to knock parts of the terminals down. As noted elsewhere, T4 has excellent access (right inside the building). T's 1 and 6 are good (1 is entirely enclosed and 6 is nearly entirely enclosed). T8/9 has difficult access now, but this is more because of American's ongoing construction there -- eventually the access will be entirely enclosed like at T1.
2. It may seem slow, but it is considerably faster than any of the shuttle busses used to be.
3. I agree that they need to post better signs. People not familiar with the system are confused -- I often end up playing volunteer guide when I'm riding/waiting. Each station should have a large sign telling exactly which train to take to get to various locations. These signs need to be electronic -- the confusion really sets in when people actually read the small posters telling which trains go where and then the service isn't running as planned. (Mid-day "GO"'s have occasionally had all trains running on one track and in the same direction).
4. I don't have a problem with the $5 fare. I like your suggestion of a machine that accepts cash and eliminates the (MTA) middleman.
CG
A subway direct to the airport with no additional fare would have had to be paid for by the MTA. Given that organisation's wonderful record in building new lines (e.g. the Second Avenue line) I wouldn't have bet any money on JFK getting a rail connection this side of 2100 if the MTA were to build it!
Well, by that argument, the IRT were a bunch of idiots for building City Hall station the way they did - it turned out to be one of the least used stations in the whole system, and within a short walk of another station (BB) that was a lot more useful.
But then, why are any of the existing terminals at JFK built the way they are? I believe at least two of them are landmarked. Why is that? Why didn't they build simple utile box-shaped structures with linoleum floors and institutional 'drop' ceilings?
Was Haliburton responsible for those projects too?
Additionally, I can distinguish between an air terminal with departures for exotic, distant lands and a shuttle to the A train. For the *purpose* it's designed for, the AirTrain stations appear-- to me-- overbuilt, overdone, overblown. How much of our $5 fare is paying for these shuttle train cathedrals in the sky?
Cities (or countries) seem to like to build their airports with grandiose architecture - I guess like they built trains stations 100 years earlier, as a kind of monument to the greatness of their city. Given the choice between GCT and the utilitarian (underground) box that is NY Penn, which is a better ad for New York?
Utilitarian boxes do have they point, though. Recently I travelled out of Terminal 3 at Paris Charles de Gaulle. It is a dreary utilitarian box to which they despatch the low-cost airlines. But it isn't the one that fell down lately, which was the grandiose Terminal 2 (8-) !
How come they can't do something like that, where you swipe your credit card through the faregates instead of having to worry about a MetroCard. I mean the MetroCard option should be available for those that don't have or don't want to use their crdit cards. However, I would just a well be happtier to get out my credit card and swipe it instead of having to go to a MVM to get a card to get out.
And it was free...
MCO's monorail is just a means of getting from the central ticketing area to the concourses and gates. It's completely different in scope from AirTrain.
All the Orlando Peoplemover does is get you from the boarding/arrival gate part of the airport to the baggage-ticketing part of the airport. It's not like Airtrain which brings you to a transportation hub. The Las Vegas Airport has a similar peoplemover. It better be free since it's an essential part of the airport boarding process. New York's airports don't have seperate buildings for boarding and ticketing/baggage.
The closest thing the Orlando peoplemover is to Airtrain is that it is similar to the airport circulator portion of AirTrain (which is also free), but it's still not really the same as New York doesn't have seperate buildings for arrival/departure and baggage/ticketing.
All the Orlando Peoplemover does is get you from the boarding/arrival gate part of the airport to the baggage-ticketing part of the airport. It's not like Airtrain which brings you to a transportation hub. The Las Vegas Airport has a similar peoplemover. It better be free since it's an essential part of the airport boarding process. New York's airports don't have seperate buildings for boarding and ticketing/baggage.
The closest thing the Orlando peoplemover is to Airtrain is that it is similar to the airport circulator portion of AirTrain (which is also free), but it's still not really the same as New York doesn't have seperate buildings for arrival/departure and baggage/ticketing.
Mark
So my rivised question is this: are there heavy subways other than SEPTA's Broad-Ridge spur, MARTA's Bankhead branch, or Cleveland RTA's red line that run one-car or two-car consists?
Mark
Robert
-- Ed Sachs
R-32.
R-32.
I think PATCO in Philadelphia runs 2 car trains at times too, can anybody second this?
During the period when they were doing a lot of trackwork, and the trains ran every 20-30 minutes through the day [on weekends only], PATCO ran 4 car trains.
The same situation existed in Los Angeles for the first couple years of their Red Line.
Also the morning and afternoon peaks have completely different natures. In the morning evryone is trying to get in as little as possible before 9am (or whatever). In the afternoon, you might head to a bar with your workmates, or go shopping, so the crowds are rather more dispersed over a few hours.
Culver shuttle was also three cars. The Bay Ridge shuttle from 36th to 65th was one car, however (pre-1940).
The CTA Skokie Swift (mentioned in some other posts) is two cars maximum also. Other CTA lines run two cars based on ridership (except maybe Red/HoDaR)--usually early morning and late night.
That's all I know about outside of NYC.
Matt
Robert
R-32.
Posted on:6/1/04 2:47:11 PM
Due to a customer injury at Times Square Station on the , north-bound trains are operating express beween 34th Street and 57th Street until futher notice.Oh well, the more the merrier.
Please explain: How many; what do they look like; etc.
I got the 4 cards this AM when I purchased 4 fun passes at the TM store. The players are not named on the cards.
It is part of a MasterCard/Mets/MetroCard promotion:
http://www.mta.info/metrocard/promos/mets/index.html
You can see pictures of the cards there.
Ouch. Do you have a use for 4 fun passes?
Because of occasional family obligations I am sometimes away from the City during the week. That makes a 30 day card not worth it for me. A few times a month I have personal business during the day and it requires me to go during business hours and then return to work. That is when the fun pass comes in handy.
I have used the 30 day and unfortunately I have been called away for a week at a time. I decided I can't take the chance.
I have a few like that.
Not according to the website.
#5/5a "Bronx expansion" will be the first dual language cards.
Robert
Robert
Not a 747? Is it an A340?
They'll use your photos, then hook you up & send ya up the river, with no hope of parole.....ever.
Seriously....I'd say you'd be okay....& then hopefully take a good look at this BS they're proposing.
Jimmymc25
You get sent to Guantanamo, no lawyer, no trial, held indefinitely without trial because you are a terrorist threat. If anything you'll be placed before a military tribunal then sentenced to 20 years to life in a military prison. On the plus side, you do get a complimentary Koran, a prayer mat and three square Halal meals every day. And if you like having naked guys piled on top of you or being led around on a dog leash by a female soldier, you're in luck!
You're an idiot.
Yep.
Some men would pay good money for that.
or being led around on a dog leash by a female soldier
See above.
And if you like having naked guys piled on top of you
or being led around on a dog leash by a female [and/or male] soldier
Half of the senate *and* the committee "investigating" it; are either doing or fantasizing about doing it. (not to mention a sizable percentage of senior major corporate executives) ;^)
No. The maximum proposed penalty is a $25 fine. I don't think the proposed ban makes any sense, but they're not threatening any big penalties.
The victim was a model and she is at Bellevue, expected to recover soon. At least she is OK!
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
On an unrelated note, the B train went down, again.
3 straight Q trains at Newkirk, with the 3rd being express. Then, nothing coming up. There was finally a gap train added because a B was sitting at Ocean Parkway waiting to enter Brighton Beach.
There were double Q trains at Kings Highway. I stayed on the local thinking we were going to keep the interval. Technically we were first because our local train was passed by the Qx at H.
Lo and behold we got into Brighton Beach first, and through to Coney Island first. The express train was sitting just outside Brighton Beach. It was reminiscent to the old pre-2/22 pattern where Qx's would sit there for 10 minutes or more.
CG
I realize that. I was only wondering whether I was alone.
CG
Mark
I certainly doubt it. Bullets can move in strange ways once they enter the body. A bullet fired into the shoulder could easily enter the chest and be fatal. Not to mention that the shoulder joint itself is complex and easily damaged.
Her modeling career is pretty much over because she now has a scar on her body. How about thanking a higher authority that her vital signs are stable at least?
But why bother when there are thousands of unscarred models looking for work? Market forces don't exactly work in the model's favor in ths particular business.
Mark
Mark
This I did not know. It is VERY interesting!
Actually, if you take the inside of bread and applied your saliva to it (chewing it), you put it over the wound that is healing. It draws out any poison inside the possible infected area like drawing salve. Of course you should not do this until your wound was treated by a doctor first.
Mark
There was even some philanthropist who donated thousands of dollars towards her surgery. A wonderful gesture, but would he have done the same thing for a 76-year-old woman- or man of any age- who might be slashed across the face?
Before you dismiss me as a cynical S.O.B. (charges I won't deny), allow me to say that NO ONE deserves the fate of Ms. Hanson or the young woman on the W train yesterday.
"Shot in the shoulder? She set this whole thing up for free publicity to launch her struggling model/acting career."
You made a valid point about the model Marla Hanson and she was lucky by the grace of God that warm and generous New Yorkers donated towards her pastic surgery. This is far different than something think the shooting was intentional to make other people feel sorry for her. In no way you are even cynical, must less a S.O.B.
Odd thing too while we are in this subject. There were two shootings within six months on the Broadway line, both were on (W)ild trains.
See: http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0203/21/lkl.00.html
CG
Bob
But given that Red Line trains often fill in for genuine NYCTA, then no surprise that KCBS wouldn't have a clue WHICH Times Square train the shooting occurred on. After all, you guys only have ONE "real" subway - everything else is pretty much surface lines ... like the old days without the nice red paint and poles up top.
All kidding aside, I'm still alive and well and have been busy.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Female Model Shot In Shoulder On Subway
POSTED: 3:23 pm EDT June 1, 2004
UPDATED: 3:26 pm EDT June 1, 2004
NEW YORK -- A 22-year-old female model was shot in the shoulder while riding the W train in midtown Tuesday.
The victim says a man she did not know approached her on the train between the 34th Street and 42nd Street stations and shot her once in the shoulder.
She was taken to Bellevue Hospital in stable condition. There is an active manhunt under way for the shooter and police are talking to witnesses who were on the train.
And there were no complaints about photographers and photo stops.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
http://subway.com.ru/flush-astoria/pages/flush-astor-07.htm
VENDING MACHINE REMOVAL
Vending machines will be eliminated from subway stations unless prospective vending contractors can give the Transit Authority definite assurances about the reliability, cleanliness and regularity of servicing of their machines.
Any future vending operator must find ways to keep machines vandal-proof. In addition to providing assurances that equipment would be in working order at all times, a future vending contractor will be required to meet rigid standards for the cleanliness and appearance of each installation.
Accordingly, entirely new design concepts will be required for any vending equipment that may go into our subways. A concern that seeks a vending contract must be prepared to provide acceptable designs for its equipment within fixed, well-lighted modules, which the vendor will be required to keep clean and at top operating efficiency.
The company which operated all subway vending equipment for the past 20 years, had been on a month-to-month basis since its last contract expired on January 30, 1974. The company notified the Authority on May 29 that it would not extend its contract after June 30. Removal of its 6,000 pieses of equipment has been completed. For the past two years the Transit Authority received only the contractual minimum of $150,000 annually. The cmpany's equipment was in about 95 per cent of the Authority's 462 stations. Some 3,000 public lockers, also operated on subway stations, are not affected by the termination of this vending contract.
---------------------------------------------------
To my knowledge, the machines, once removed, were never replaced. A new contractor was never found.
David
David
If the lockers had stayed, they would have been removed by now. A public locker would be a better place to leave a bomb (dirty or chemical) than a subway tunnel.
This is why they never found another contractor. There's NO WAY you can make a machine that's vandal-proof.
PS. and not to mention all the photos you could take without being hasseled.......
I just looked at MTA of Los Angeles website about a new orange line
under construction.
Does anyone know about this? If so, will the metro orange be ligth rail like the blue or green lines or subway/elevated like the existing Metro Red line?
oh!...it's somewhat like bus rapid transit on an elevated overpass.
OK American Pig, thanks!
Much of the Orange line will run on the right-of-way of the old Pacific Electric San Fernando Valley line. And I hadn't heard that it will replace the Ventura Blvd Rapid Line (line 750).
Bill "Newkirk"
Thanks, Larry, RedbirdR33
Larry,RebirdR33
You are a beast. An unstoppable force of photographic nature.
The ACMU are on a dedicated cycle with two or three revenue runs per day. The rest of the time they are idle. It would not make any sense to put the new cars on an ACMU cycle and have them sit unused for a good portion of the day.
Nevertheless the days are numbered for the last of the New York Central cars so don't delay too long in going for a ride.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The interesting thing is that after the line was closed the first part that was removed was the track to the La Ronde Amusement Area which is where the shops where located and the cars stabled. The cars were moved to Ile St Helene and stored on the open track.
Thanks for any information.
Larry, RedbirdR33
I remember reading that bulletin too Dave. At the time the SIRT only had 48 cars on the roster and was hard pressed to protect the service. Apparently some one thought that the 48 Expo Express cars would nicely replace the SIRT cars. However the Expo Express cars where made up into eight six car trains and only the the two end cars had motorman's control at the outer end. The rest were blind motors.SIRT in those days usually ran two car trains in the off-peak. In the rush they ran a combination of two,three, four and on rare occasions five car trains depending on what was available.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Think Washington, DC
Thanks, Larry, RedbirdR33
Larry,RedbirdR33
We drove up from Pompton Plains via the Thruway and Northway (I-87). Unfortunately, the middle part didn't get finished until after Expo ended. There was a major detour along US 9. By August, when we went up again for my cousin's wedding, a portion of new highway had been completed.
Another Expo Express fact: after Expo closed and became Man and His World, the express was cut back from City Pier to the first island stop. In addition, a station was added along the straightaway leading to the Jacques Cartier Bridge. Trains used to build up a good head of steam along that straightaway before the station was put in. There was a stop at Habitat '67, but only in one direction and it wasn't open during either of our visits in '67.
Watchful rail riders add to security
This opinion article was written by Steve Dunham of Spotsylvania
County, who chairs the board of directors of the Virginia Association
of Railway Patrons. Write him c/o Commuter Crossroads, The Free
Lance-Star, 616 Amelia St., Fredericksburg, Va. 22401. Or e-mail
literalman@aol.com. This item was published May 30, 2004, in the
Free Lance-Star.
What's to stop terrorists from bombing commuter trains in
Washington, as they did in Madrid, Spain, on March 11? Tighter
security plus watchful employees, passengers and railfans.
On May 23, the Department of Homeland Security directed U.S.
passenger railroads to use dogs to detect bombs in baggage, in
terminals and on trains, and to enlist the help of passengers and
employees in spotting suspicious behavior or unattended property.
This helpful advice from the federal government ignores the fact that
passenger-carrying lines have been doing just that for a long time.
Since Sept. 11, 2001, rail systems across America have been
encouraging passengers to keep their eyes open for anything
suspicious, and most passenger railroads started boosting security as
long ago as 1995, when terrorists used sarin gas on the Tokyo
subway. New York City has been stepping up transit security since the
1993 World Trade Center bombing.
Virginia Railway Express has been an industry leader in implementing
security measures such as guards, disaster drills and evacuation
plans. Dave Snyder, VRE's superintendent of railroad operations,
safety and security, has encouraged passengers to be on the lookout
for anything suspicious.
The thousands of eyes and ears provided by passengers are going to
be crucial to preventing a Madrid-style attack in the United States. A
rail system, unlike an airline, has so many points of access that
security measures in themselves are not nearly enough.
For proof, look at the Transportation Security Administration's new
pilot program to screen rail passengers. Beginning May 4, Amtrak and
Maryland Rail Commuter passengers have been passing an explosives
detector before boarding trains at one station (New Carrollton, Md.)
and during rush hours only. Passengers on the Washington Metro,
which shares the station, aren't being screened at all. You don't need
a criminal mind to spot a few holes in that security measure.
However, just as Americans on an airplane will never again sit quietly
through a hijacking, anyone leaving a suitcase or backpack behind on
a train is going to get instant attention, and that's where alert
passengers may be able to thwart an attack.
However, two rail systems have hit the headlines in the past two
weeks over misguided efforts to prevent photography. New Jersey
Transit, which was building canine bomb-detection teams before the
Department of Homeland Security started issuing directives in that
regard, now wants to forbid anyone from taking pictures of its
property without a permit, and the New York City Transit Authority
has decided to require permits for photography on the subways.
Civil liberties advocates were quick to pounce on the restrictions, and
I agree. I've taken plenty of train pictures for columns and articles
and just for fun. I see no legal basis for banning photography on
public property. On transit authority property, I can see the rationale
for issuing permits; when I lived in Boston I had a photographer's
permit for the transit system.
But there's another side to this: Discouraging photography is
counterproductive to security. Common sense says that cameras will
discourage crime, including terrorism. But in general, some railroads
and even local police, particularly in the Northeast, have been
discouraging train buffs from watching trains or taking pictures. I'm a
casual, now-and-then train watcher, but there are people who spend
hours every weekend watching trains, often carrying cameras,
notebooks, maybe binoculars, and they notice the slightest thing out
of the ordinary. If I were responsible for security on a railroad, which
has such extensive property and so many vulnerable points that it is
impossible to patrol, I wouldn't be discouraging these people.
To its credit, I have never heard of VRE discouraging railfans who
practice safety, who stay clear of tracks, trains and private property. I
often see train watchers at the Alexandria station in the evening, and
a local rail history group sometimes holds meetings right on the
platform.
If someone places a suitcase on the platform and leaves the station,
or parks a bomb-laden vehicle under a bridge, or attempts some kind
of sabotage, chances are these people will be the first to notice. I
hope they are carrying cameras.
June 1, 2004
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=717520
Can you just vote "NO" and let it go at that.
Or you could write in Homer Simpson.
Elias
Then again, there's rumors that the old lever-crankers MIGHT be gone by November, replaced by Diebold electronic units. The DIEBOLD system has *NO* provisions for "write-ins" ... how CONVENIENT. :(
Unless something changes, the Diebold machines won't be in use ANYWHERE in the country this fall... a panel of Federal judges, ruling unanimously in a California case with far-reaching implications, has invalidated the use of any machine that does not provide a paper trail.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=253802&category=SCHENECTADY&BCCode=LOCAL&newsdate=6/3/2004
AND... If you do open the write-in window, you cannot close it and use a leaver instead.
Why can't you write in on a computer screen, UPS does it all the time.
Elias
Handwriting recognition is still a digital stillbirth. And while "grafitti" (the handwriting madness for Palm) works OK, the PROBLEM is that you have to write in a way that the COMPUTER understands, they can't deal with HUMAN handwriting. After all these years, STILL no real progress. WATCH your UPS driver and ask them to show you how it works. You'll see that it's QUITE unnatural, and the penstrokes required to get a valid character into it is WEIRD. After proper training though, it's a natural FOR THEM.
Voters? Hell - we're IN this mess because they can't stick a pin into the right HOLE. Now we're going to ask them to WRITE? :)
I have the problem solved though - sample ballot here:
http://nationalcorridors.org/df/df06012004.shtml#Towing
--Mark
David
--Mark
In early 1980, in an effort to save money, the MTA proposed to eliminate the special half fare program for the elderly during peak hours, and the Sunday half-fare program for all riders. Hundreds protested this proposal. The MTA planned to save $44 million with the elimination of these fare programs.
It ended, as David stated, on May 1st, 1980. $44 million is a lot of money.
--Mark
On the lower level at the front of the platform, it seems someone might have set the old inactive plywood NYPD Booth on fire. I passed through the station around 7PM this evening and the stench of the fire was lingering pretty thick still. The front of the old tower was scorched, as well as the ceiling. Light fixtures and wires across the ceiling were melted. Quite a bit of damage, though stucturally everything seemed fine and the area was not roped off.
The old NYPD booth there has been inactive for quite awhile, and the last time I saw it, it had it's plastic window smashed, graffiti in it, and a pile of trash on the floor. today nothing is there except a clear spot on the floor where the booth once stood.
Got Security?
What is suspicious about this fire is that there is almost allways atleast one cop in this station and a precinct of sorts along the trestle structure that once led to the second ave el.
I have noticed that better and airconditioned booths are being installed at some stations. Might this have been a form of "Blus lightning"?
I was out there tonight and it's a shame that just five years after being renovated this station is now such a mess.
It's more than a little crazy that (at least so far as I can tell) the booth burned like that - with all the cops around that station most of the time, and the likelihood that someone just threw a stray cigerette butt in there on the low side, it makes me wonder if it was intentional. Kinda scary if it was.
:)
Since they are similar in size to an IRT car, maybe I can tell how it is to ride and how well well the arrangement works by hearing about IRT cars: How is it to stand in an IRT car? Do you trip on people's feet (who are seated)? Is there enough room mid-car (between the doors) for a sizeable group? Do you like sitting facing into the car? Some say that it gives a more panoramic view, but you cannot make eye contact with the person in front of you and all you will see are people's lower portions when there are standees.
TIA
Matt
CTA cars are 2" taller on the exterior, but 3 feet shorter than IRT cars. They should have bought the stainless steel straps from the Redbirds and installed them on the 3200's (and 3600's to be built). Would have been a excellent recycling program.
When the Purple Line ran express south of Belmont, how did they prevent it from getting stuck behind Brown Line locals?
The Brown ran more infrequently, and ran skip-stop south of Belmont. When they got rid of A-B service, they also got more frequent, and the Purples catching up to the Brown is part of the reason they went local, also to relieve the Brown's overcrowding.
Click Here for Story
Note: And they think a Photography Ban is the answer!If they can't stop A person from walking on the subway with A gun. They seriously have to think Is Photography that dangerous?
ANOTHER MODEL????? There was just one shot earlier today and there were like at least three threads about it! This is UNBELIEVABLE!!!!!
:)
Well, when *was* the last time some one got shot on the subway?
Elias
Click Here For Story
This is the Address if the link doesn't work!
http://www.wnbc.com/news/3342951/detail.html
http://www.wnbc.com/mta/index.html
http://www.wnbc.com/slideshow/community/3012739/detail.html?qs=;s=3;p=community;dm=ss;w=320
Silly me, I always thought that trolleys were replaced by busses.
Very accurate!
http://www.wnbc.com/slideshow/community/3012739/detail.html?qs=;s=6;p=community;dm=ss;w=320
Huh?
http://www.wnbc.com/slideshow/community/3012739/detail.html?qs=;s=8;p=community;dm=ss;w=320
You didn't know the pentagon shape in the center (that had 5 sides)
and 1 side stood for each borough, Notch?
In 1954, the track between Church and Ditmus avenues opened, making it easier for people in the Bronx to get to Coney Island.
Eh, what about the other 3 tracks between Church and Ditmas Avenues.
DUH!
http://www.wnbc.com/slideshow/community/3012739/detail.html?qs=;s=3;p=community;dm=ss;w=320
http://www.wnbc.com/slideshow/community/3012739/detail.html?qs=;s=7;p=community;dm=ss;w=320
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=717520
Can you just vote "NO" and let it go at that.
Or you could write in Homer Simpson.
Elias
Then again, there's rumors that the old lever-crankers MIGHT be gone by November, replaced by Diebold electronic units. The DIEBOLD system has *NO* provisions for "write-ins" ... how CONVENIENT. :(
Unless something changes, the Diebold machines won't be in use ANYWHERE in the country this fall... a panel of Federal judges, ruling unanimously in a California case with far-reaching implications, has invalidated the use of any machine that does not provide a paper trail.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=253802&category=SCHENECTADY&BCCode=LOCAL&newsdate=6/3/2004
AND... If you do open the write-in window, you cannot close it and use a leaver instead.
Why can't you write in on a computer screen, UPS does it all the time.
Elias
Handwriting recognition is still a digital stillbirth. And while "grafitti" (the handwriting madness for Palm) works OK, the PROBLEM is that you have to write in a way that the COMPUTER understands, they can't deal with HUMAN handwriting. After all these years, STILL no real progress. WATCH your UPS driver and ask them to show you how it works. You'll see that it's QUITE unnatural, and the penstrokes required to get a valid character into it is WEIRD. After proper training though, it's a natural FOR THEM.
Voters? Hell - we're IN this mess because they can't stick a pin into the right HOLE. Now we're going to ask them to WRITE? :)
I have the problem solved though - sample ballot here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/02/nyregion/02tunnels.html?pagewanted=2
I have to laugh when I hear people calling this "pork barrel." In Alaska, they recently got $1 billion to build a bridge to serve a community of 500 people.
Tell me exactly how a ban is required on amateur photography but the Times can run this article, describing exactly the safety and security features that are or are not in place in the Penn tunnels?!
--Mark
I can see where this might be a security problem, but beyoind that, how about *repairing* those tunnels.
My think on it is to simply CLOSE them during the weekend and get the job done.
Actually, you only have to close on tube at a time, ut even shutting down NYP on weekends isn't all that bad, is it?
Elias
My guess is that this is precisely what they have in mind --- and it's because they're limited to late night and weekend work that it will take so long.
A similar project inside the Holland Tunnel (at least, it looks similar) has been going on for quite a while now.
I don’t know whether one tube would suffice even during weekends.
It does, although just barely. They try to "fleet" trains so that a half-dozen or so outbound trains (NJT and Amtrak mixed) run in quick succession, followed by a similar number of inbound trains. Delays don't usually get over five minutes outbound.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It does, although just barely. They try to "fleet" trains so that a half-dozen or so outbound trains (NJT and Amtrak mixed) run in quick succession, followed by a similar number of inbound trains. Delays don't usually get over five minutes outbound.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What Chris implied (for those unaware) is that tunnel work has been ongoing for quite some time on weekends. One tunnel is closed for working and the other handles all the traffic. That's why 7 day per week Amtrak trains have a different schedule on Sat/Sun than on week days.
With the single tunnel, they run trains in one direction for 25 minutes, then a 5 minute hiatus to clear the tunnel, then the other way for 25 minutes. This means that an hour's worth of trains in one direction have to get through the tunnel in 25 minutes. Each 25 minutes sees two NJT NEC trains, a NY&LB train, and an M&E Midtown Direct. That's just NJT. During the same 25 minutes, Amtrak can run a Regional, an Acela or Metroliner, a Keystone and/or long distance train (Florida, Carolinas). They operate with three minute headways, so if a train misses its alloted departure time by a minute or two, it could have to wait up to an hour for its next slot.
Would YOU walk down a tunnel with no escape paths to snap such a nifty photo unless you had ASSURANCES that there wasn't going to be a train coming at you? :)
1) When was there last a serious accident in any of the tunnels into NY Penn Station?
2) When was there last a serious accident on the entire line between Philly 30th St and Boston South?
However, reality as I see it rarely makes expedient politics.
The command line prompt is still there, though you have to find it.
Run cmd.exe from the Start…Run menu. You will then be able to format what you like.
And how doesn’t fdisk work on really large drives? How big is really large? I repartitioned a 120GB drive a few months ago under XP.
Also, a GUI version of format is available on the right click menu in Windows file manager.
You cannot Format or Fdisk the drive with the active operating system on it.
If you boot from a floppy disk and then try it (presuming the commands are on the floppy disk) yes you will reformat the HDD.
When I build a new computer for my LAN station later this summer, it will have PowerQuesd PartitionMagic (The last release before Symantic bought out the outfit), and I will have an empty HDD Tray on the front of the box. Just put the hard drive to be serviced in there, and I can do anything I want with it.
Elias
PS. With the Emergency Disks from PartitionMagic comes Caldera DOS 7.0 with a dos version of the GUI PM, and Format and Fdisk comands. These commands are a little different from the MS DOS version, and to my way of thinking easier to use.
I can boot any computer with them and then ditz with the disks.
Elias
Besides, the correct syntax is FORMAT C: /Q
Microsoft Windows XP [Version 5.1.2600]
(C) Copyright 1985-2001 Microsoft Corp.
S:\>format /?
Formats a disk for use with Windows XP.
FORMAT volume [/FS:file-system] [/V:label] [/Q] [/A:size] [/C] [/X]
FORMAT volume [/V:label] [/Q] [/F:size]
FORMAT volume [/V:label] [/Q] [/T:tracks /N:sectors]
FORMAT volume [/V:label] [/Q]
FORMAT volume [/Q]
volume Specifies the drive letter (followed by a colon),
mount point, or volume name.
/FS:filesystem Specifies the type of the file system (FAT, FAT32, or NTFS).
/V:label Specifies the volume label.
/Q Performs a quick format.
/C NTFS only: Files created on the new volume will be compressed
by default.
/X Forces the volume to dismount first if necessary. All opened
handles to the volume would no longer be valid.
/A:size Overrides the default allocation unit size. Default settings
are strongly recommended for general use.
NTFS supports 512, 1024, 2048, 4096, 8192, 16K, 32K, 64K.
FAT supports 512, 1024, 2048, 4096, 8192, 16K, 32K, 64K,
(128K, 256K for sector size > 512 bytes).
FAT32 supports 512, 1024, 2048, 4096, 8192, 16K, 32K, 64K,
(128K, 256K for sector size > 512 bytes).
Note that the FAT and FAT32 files systems impose the
following restrictions on the number of clusters on a volume:
FAT: Number of clusters <= 65526
FAT32: 65526 < Number of clusters < 4177918
Format will immediately stop processing if it decides that
the above requirements cannot be met using the specified
cluster size.
NTFS compression is not supported for allocation unit sizes
above 4096.
/F:size Specifies the size of the floppy disk to format (1.44)
/T:tracks Specifies the number of tracks per disk side.
/N:sectors Specifies the number of sectors per track.
S:\>
Thank god it doesn’t work!
It's a very strange concept. Network drives become local drives if you are sitting on the server console. So I guess there is no need to "format network drives", unless you happen to be remotely admining a server and it happens to crash. But I think in those cases you would travel to the server site and replace the disc before you formatted it anyway.
Concepts like formatting no longer applies, since all the drives are factory low-level formatted anyway, and now with RAID and stuff, you are not really creating the structure of the disc track-by-track and sector-by-sector anymore, you are just creating the file system.
I guess, there is no need to format a network drive. Just ask a Novell consultant to do it.
AEM7
Federal Transit Administration Approves $490.7 Million Funding Pact for Light Rail Extension to East Los Angeles
I'm glad to hear this. Hopefully when it's built and starts providing good transit to the residents of East Los Angeles, it will ease crowding on some of the bus routes in that area. I know it won't make the BRU shut up, but it might take the wind out of the sails of their anti-rail campaigns.
Mark
To have funded the extension out to the suburban communities in the foothills while turning down the extension to East LA would have smelled very strongly of discrimination.
Especially when you consider that more people are transit-dependent in East LA than in Pasadena. The crowding on the buses proves that ridership is there, while the Pasadena branch of the Gold Line seemed oddly roomy even at rush hour when I rode it.
Given all this, I can agree with the BRU as far as they claim that poorer neighborhoods are underserved, and deserve a bigger piece of the transit-funding pie. Where I disagree with them is when they seem to think more buses are the only answer to their transit problems. So devoted to buses, they see any rail taking money from bus service, and go so far as to oppose even rail that serves the people they claim to be lobbying for!
That's why I want to see this line built. I want the riders of East LA to see that rail is good for them as well as more affluent people, so that they won't listen to the BRU's blind opposition to anything rail.
Mark
LA Metro - http://www.metro.net
Why no more red line? http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=%22red+line%22+methane+yaroslavsky&btnG=Google+Search
That would have been a great idea. Extend the red line east into East Los Angeles, and then form Wilshire/Western extend it westward to UCLA and maybe points beyond. Then you'd have a subway that connected the region.
Mark
That had been precisely the idea, no? But first further construction west along the Wilshire alignment was banned, allegedly for geological concerns--I think at the federal level?-- and then LA voted in a referendum to ban local funding for new heavy-rail subway construction, kiboshing the East LA Red Line. The Gold Line project-- and the Exposition Blvd Blue Line project, parallel to Wilshire a couple miles south-- are the best LA MTA can do under the current parameters. Expo's initial segment will go to Culver City and the final project is intended to continue west to Santa Monica, but a spur to UCLA via either Westwood Blvd or the 405 seems like a no-brainer.
The Valley alignment now being developed as the 'Orange Line' busway (discussed in a parallel thread) was likewise intended as a future extension of the North Hollywood branch of the Red Line, I believe, whereas now it'll just be a feeder.
Mark
Mark
;-) Alargule
shit fuck
The filter was turned off about two weeks ago.I believe there was a filter-free post about this on BusTalk.
Matt
Profanity is an interesting subject.
A real explitive is generated by a different part of the brain than that which forms the rest of your lexicon.
They are words that, when used as explitives, andr not thought about, but rather just said.
Hit your thumb with a hammer and you will exclaim "Oh Poo!", without any forethought on your part.
Used in any other context, all it does is demonstrate a lack of vocabulary, maners, and respect both of self and others.
A person ought to be taught proper manners, and how to show respect for others. Once I was the only man working in an office of women. I heard them to admonish one and other to watch their language, there was a man present. : )
Anyway, you do not present yourself well when you choose to use foul language in your normal daily intercourse.
Elias
Think for a moment.
The answer, of course, is "talk".
Or, if you're willing to be slightly vulgar, "pork."
I'm sick of this country's puritanical attitude against language and sexuality. A movie can have tons of graphic violence and gore, and it will be rated PG. Yet if there's the slightest bit of sex or foul language, it immediately gets an R rating.
It should be the other way around. I'm not one of those people who rails against Hollywood violence, but violence is worse than foul language and/or brief nudity.
A movie can use the "f word" and avoid an R rating, so long as the word is used only once, as an exclamation, and not along with mother.
Something's seriously wrong with this. The misuse of a word is allowed, but the use of the word to mean what it means isn't...
We don't hafta wear the dress and the shoes while doing that, do we? I'm as adventurous as the next guy, but for me that's a bridge too far.
Your pal,
Dotty
Your pal,
Fred
"If I only had a brain"
"If I only had a heart"
"If I only had COURAGE"
And THEN..."We are off the see the Wizard. The Wonderful Wizard of Oz, BECAUSE BECAUSE...."
I was really just curious.
-Chris
Thanks,
Bill
wayne
Feel free to repost the information anywhere and everywhere - not just transit sites, but all NYC photography related websites.
Download and forward the press relase to your favorite news outlet, or create your own press release.
To state it simply, this protest is your protest, and can be as big as you make it. Spending 10 minutes out of your busy day to spread the word around the web and to the press can and will yield results.
I'm going to try to do as much as I can, but there's no way I can do it alone. Spread the word, come out and be social. It should be a fun trip.
Your handy-dandy list of people to mail it (and your "public comment") to:
(name)
(title--for the Chairman, Vice Chairs only)
MTA Board of Directors
347 Madison Avenue
New York, NY 10017
Peter S. Kalikow, Chairman
David S. Mack, Vice Chairman
Edward B. Dunn, Vice Chairman
Andrew Albert
John H. Banks III
James F. Blair
Nancy Shevell Blakeman
Anthony J. Bottalico
Michael J. Canino
Barry Feinstein
Lawrence W. Gamache
James H. Harding Jr.
Susan Kupferman
Mark D. Lebow
James L. McGovern
Mark Page
Ernest J. Salerno
Andrew M. Saul
James L. Sedore Jr.
James S. Simpson
Edward A. Vrooman
Ed Watt
Alfred E. Werner
-----------
Other MTA Honchos (Not Board of Directors)
(same address as above)
Christopher P. Boylan
Deputy Executive Director/Corporate and Community Affairs
Catherine A. Rinaldi
Deputy Executive Director/General Counsel
William A. Morange
Deputy Executive Director/Director of Security
Katherine N. Lapp
Executive Director
Thomas J. Savage
Chief Operating Officer
Lawrence G. Reuter
President, MTA New York City Transit
----------------------
There's also an independent Office of the Inspector General that "identifies mismanagement" within the MTA that could be interested:
Matthew D. Sansverie
Inspector General
James Bono
Deputy Inspector General/Intergovernmental and Public Affairs Unit
Office of the Inspector General
Metropolitan Transportation Authority
111 West 40th Street, 5th Floor, New York, NY 10018.
Partially insane on my part, but worth something.
Your pal,
Fred
The plot thickens.
By the time we reached Bayside, the train was pretty crowded, one row of seats per person, but still, pretty crowded considering this is 5:30AM.
Got to NYP, ran up to the E just as it pulled in, took that to 7th Av, got the B downtown to Rockefeller. Got out of the station to hear Gretchen Wilson singing Homewrecker. The line wasn't too long, only about 20 people. Great show, got an autograph.
Got the Q32 back to NYP....BIG MISTAKE! I just made the 9:51Am train back to PW by about a minute.
As we got closer to either the former Elmhurst or Corona station, we started to really slow down. Eventually we stopped. Got word we had to wait for the westbound to pass. I was confused b/c that line is 2 tracks til Great Neck. I knew there had to be a good reason for it though. 5 minutes later, the westbound passed and we proceeded to switch onto the westbound track. As we got closer to Flushing, I saw why. Sperry Rail Car. I guess trackwork. This had probably been going on all morning, b/c when I called, my mom seemed really pissed about something. Probably that her train was held up by this.
We went eastbound on the westbound track til about Bayside I think. There's a switch just west of the Clearview, I think we took that(I was dozing off, got only 3 hrs of sleep). Got to PW bout 5-10 minutes late, no big deal. Walked to school to go to only 2 classes(rolls eyes).
Saw lots of NYBS action in midtown on 5th av. Throgs Neck, Morris Park, and Pelham buses galore.
One question though. Does LIRR run mostly M7s during the day? That's all I saw on my way home(including the train I was on, the one we waited for, and 3 or 4 others that I saw pass). I think I saw maybe one M1/M3.
BTW, the train going back to Port Washington at 9:51am had a good amount of people on it too. I was glad cuz we skipped Murray Hill and Aurburndale, saved us some time.
Your pal,
Fred
You're really something else, Thurston.
Only if you'd like to obtain one via eBay :-)
the falsity of the proposed photo ban - and a challenge to expose it
Group: nyc.transit
Date: Wed, Jun 2, 2004, 2:25am (EDT+4)
From: caribejoe@REMOVEmycaribbean.info
I sent the following email to the TA a few minutes ago . . .
About 10 / 12 years ago I was given a summons on a NYC subway platform for taking photos of a police action. That same day a woman was also given a summons, under the same law, for the similar offense of photographing defective and dangerous live electric wires at an uptown west side station. In both cases, each of those "offenses" actually promoted the public good.
The next day, newspapers made those incidents front page news and tv news reports put them on the 6pm and 10 pm broadcasts. Both summons were quickly voided by an embarrassed police department and Transit Authority.
Your proposed law is for the alleged purpose, as stated in your own documents, of promoting the "public sense of security." That is an verbatim quote of your stated purpose of the new law.
First of all, let's look at that language. You are not doing this to enhance real security but merely to enhance the public's perception of security. You are only interested in appearances, not reality.
Even then, this new law fails to do that, as the experience of the two incidents demonstrates.
The "offense" for which I was charged, making photographs of police arresting some trouble-makers did more in that moment for the "public sense of security" than might be accomplished by years of repression of that right of a citizen to document and publish what happens in public. Those who saw my published photos got the message that the cops were on the trains, doing their jobs and doing them well. The fact that I was a journalist at that time is not relevant. First Amendment rights are not proscribed for only those employed as journalists. FA Rights belong to everyone.
And the second incident that same day, verifies the effect of the exercise of that FA Right on both the "public sense of security" and the reality of security.
The woman took photos in a narrow busy stairway to show to them to TA bureaucrats who had ignored her phoned and written warnings of the hazardously exposed live wires. When she presented them with the damning photos, the response was to attempt to silence her with the charge of a crime. But instead of intimidating her into silence the story got the publicity needed and the wiring was promptly repaired.
All your law will accomplish is to repress both the "public sense of security" and the reality of safety in the subway system.
Further, a common expression applies: "Locks are for honest people." In other words, no terrorist is going to be deterred by your law. Modern photographic technology empowers anyone to take surreptitious videos anywhere, under any conditions. That's what a terrorist will use. You will never see him do it. Meanwhile you will congratulate yourselves and gull the gullible in to a false "public sense of security."
Therefore, to help you see the folly of your plan (as you might say, "I'm doing this for your own good") I will offer you a challenge. Should you put this law into effect, I will promptly stage a civil disobedience event by appearing in at a preannounced place and time and taking photos.
Since you do not know what I look like, you will never see me do it even if every person in that station or subway car is a police officer. I then will publish those photos on the Internet. Let's see if, after that demonstration, you can continue trying to cozen people into a false "public sense of security" by banning photos after that.
CaribeJoe - Moderator
Non-commercial My Caribbean.Info Forums
Free Caribbean Destination Directories
Free advice from Travel Writers
Post your own trip reports and photos
Hotel and Air Deals and Rough Guide Reports http://www.mycaribbean.info
More power to him.
--Mark
Of course he will, but he reinforced some points I held important and brought up some I hadn't considered. It's good to take a squint at some of these.
Your pal,
Fred
Regards,
Jimmy
Likely. Cubic also developed the MetroCard. The CTA TransitCard is largely identical to the MetroCard. If you look at all of the MEMs (Mini-MVMs) in the subway, they also have a disc for a contactless smart card. I assume the SmartLink will go online once every path station has had the new turnstiles (like those at the WTC) installed.
And where would such a system be used in Houston?
They also have graphics on their cards ... good for collectors [grin]
http://nationalcorridors.org/df/df06012004.shtml#Towing
RKO Madison Theater, Ridgewood : Wyckoff Avenue, BMT Myrtle :
Images 1409 and 6847
Parthenon Theater, Ridgewood : Wyckoff Avenue, BMT Myrtle :
Image 1409, upper left.
RKO Madison Theater, Ridgewood : Knickerbocker Avenue, BMT Myrtle
Images 2196, 2198, at vanishing point.
Rivoli Theater, Bushwick : Knickerbocker Avenue, BMT Myrtle
Image 6608, possibly at left edge.
Broadway Theater, Bushwick : Myrtle Avenue, BMT Jamaica
Possibly only one image of this station, showing an exposed brown brick wall, adjacent to where this theater once stood.
Casino Theater : Kosciuszko St. BMT Jamaica : Image 3033
RKO Bushwick, Loews Gates : Gates Avenue, BMT Jamaica :
Images 2637, 25755, 26229. Image 2637 may also show the Monroe Theater which once stood opposite the RKO Bushwick, across Howard Avenue from it, at 4 Howard Avenue.
Loews Willard Theater, Woodhaven : Woodhaven Blvd. BMT Jamaica (facing east) : images 4593, 4450, 5631, 2215, 2121, 2136, 2168, and 2109 : all at vanishing point. Pink brick building with dark gray sloped roof, now Cordon Bleu Caterers.
Loews Hillside : Sutphin Blvd. BMT Jamaica :
Images 4516, 4538, 6327, 2233. Based on the release dates of the films whose titles appear on the marquee in image 6327 ("Let No Man Write My Epitaph" starring Shelley Winters and "Hell Is A City") and the large piles of snow on the sidewalk, the date of that image, November 1964, appears to be incorrect, and should rather be about February 6, 1961, a few days after the February 4, 1961 blizzard that struck New York City.
The titles on the marquee in image 6327 came from some detective work on the Cinema Treasures website.
Loews Valencia, RKO Alden : 168th Street, BMT Jamaica :
Alden : 6367, 6397, 24041 (with Valencia)
Valencia : 3021, 3022, 12230, 5557, 4642, 26369
Ambassador Theater, Brownsville Bklyn : Saratoga Avenue, Brooklyn IRT elevated : images 2785, 3234, 3356, 3848, 8102, 12293.
Loews Oriental : 18th Avenue BMT West End Line : Images 5262, 5432 (upper left).
RKO Keith Richmond Hill : 121st Street BMT Jamaica : Image 24492, to right of upper right corner of front of train. Building with peaked roof and water tower.
Boro Park Theater : 50th Street BMT West End : Image 26346 ?
46th Street Theater : Fort Hamilton Pkwy BMT West End : Images 4809, 2532, 1926.
Bliss Theater, Sunnyside, Queens : 46th St. IRT Flushing Line : Image 510, mid-left edge.
Corona Plaza Theater : 103rd St. IRT Flushing : Images 12772, 8028, 8026.
Corona Theater : Junction Blvd. IRT Flushing : Images 4380, 6092, 4333, 4321.
Avenue U Theater : Avenue U, BMT Brighton : Images 2321, 4602, 4784, 4526. Crested brick building visible above train.
Colonial Theater, 1746 Broadway, Bklyn : Halsey St. BMT Jamaica : Images 26237 (upper left front of train), 26236, 26417 (silver roof line near vanishing point). The Colonial is adjacent to the western, Rockaway Avenue end, of the Jamaica-bound Chauncey Street platform of the BMT Jamaica line. Pulling out of the Manhattan-bound side, looking out the rear of the train, one can see the crest above the northwest end (Rockaway Avenue exit) of the Jamaica-bound platform. Because there are other buildings close up against it, the further away one gets, the better the overall view of it.
Loews Coney island a.k.a. Shore Theater : Stillwell Avenue BMT Culver, Brighton, West End, Sea Beach : Images 6503, 6851, 4987, 4774, 4818, 4880, 5183, 28296.
The above theaters are in Brooklyn and Queens. Please bring to my attention images on this site showing old theaters in Manhattan, the Bronx and Staten Island, or other images showing theaters in Brooklyn and Queens. Thank you.
I bought Smith and Kramer's book on trolleys, "The Brooklyn Queens Transit : From Coney Island To Flushing" for myself as a Father's Day present last yeat, partly because of the Ridgewood and Parthenon Theaters appearing so clearly in the background of the images of trolleys in Ridgewood, Queens, at mid-Bklyn-Queens border.
The photo in the middle of page 47 of "Unifying The Subways" by Kramer is captioned, "This view of the Adams Street station was taken looking east on Myrtle Avenue from Boro Hall". This station was a BMT el station in downtown Bklyn. At its right edge you can see the Tivoli Theater, formerly at 365 Fulton Street, according to "Cinema Tour". It must have stood at the intersection of Myrtle Avenue and Fulton Street, when Myrtle Avenue extended that far west, and Fulton Street extended to the foot of the Brooklyn Bridge, pre-Cadman Plaza.
This intersection no longer exists.
In the newest images section....
I am on Cinema Treasures as "Peter.K", and GP 38 Chris is on there as "Bway".
In a response to my previous and first post on this topic (27 April 2004), "italianguyinsi" advised me to look for the Benson Theater, at 2005-09 86th St. Bklyn, in images of the 20th Avenue Station, BMT West End, but I have not yet found it there.
Yup, that's me! By the way Mark, are you "Mark W" there? It would seem logical.....
Checking the list of Brooklyn theaters from "cinematour" that you so kindly directed me to 22 April 2004, I don't see an "Aster" Theater.
I will have to check the list for Bklyn theaters with a Broadway address in the high 200's or low 300's, and see which (if any) is at
Bway and Havemeyer, via Map Quest.
If you've already done this, please let me know. Thanks.
My dad worked as a young man at the Denmark Liquor Store at Bway and Lexington Avenues, so he especially enjoyed the two images, 31100 and 31079, showing the Bway and Ralph and Lexington Avenues intersection. He said he remembered the Reid's store and piano place shown in the
closer photo.
Images from the past like these recently posted B and QT trolley photos are both a fascination and a frustration to me. A fascination, for obvious reasons which we have both articulated. A frustration, because I can't always identify exactly where those old photos are, for example, because of a blurry or missing street sign. It's like one can only look so far back into the past, in so much detail, before the disorder of the universe, accumulated over time, fuzzes and blurs everything out.
Another good souce for photographs like this are old postcards, there is a postcard show a few times a year at the New Yorker Hotel, I went one year and got a couple of cool vintage ones of Coney Island in the old days and they were not that expensive.
bmtculver
Image #31213:
Cinematreasures.com photo showing The Prospect Theater:
A colleague of mine, to whom I showed image 31213, may have visited the block in question on a field trip for the Gowanus Creek study, and may return with more useful information.
You wrote "IND crossing over Ninth Street". I too thought that at first : 9th Street and 4th Avenue. But the IND Culver Line parallels Ninth Street, and runs between it and 10th Street, between Third and Fourth Avenues. The IND crosses over 9th Street at the Gowanus Canal, then crosses over 2nd 3rd and 4th Avenues before descending into its tunnel east of the 4th Avenue station.
I'll check what avenues 327 Ninth Street is between on MapQuest. Should have done this days ago. Haste makes waste. Sorry.
This was not the RKO Propect in Brooklyn, it was the Loew's Propect Theatre in Queens, located on Main Street at Kissena Boulevard, this building was totaly demolished. Check out CinemaTreasures for more info.
bmtculver
3 streets possibly to be co-named, but the last one is more interesting than the first two... the "SAS" may be coming to lower Manhattan a lot sooner than expected, lol....
Get over it. Co-naming is common all over town.
Second Avenue South actually makes a little sense because it actually provides some information letting you know that it is an extension of Second Avenue, rather than honoring an unknown individual that only a few people know what he or she accomplished.
There are much better ways of honoring people than naming streets after them. It's gotten out of hand. It seems that's half of what the City Council does.
8th and CPW can't be co-named since the addresses don't match, although 8th Avenue and Frederick Douglass Blvd can be co-named
What's up with the West Shore line project that someone has heard from NJ Transit that can be posted up here on subtalk.
As for the light rail on the Northern Branch, that's still up in the air. The Colorado Railcar DMU tests have made politicians in Bergen County rethink their stance; after seeing a vehicle that doesn't require electrification, has toilets, is pretty darn quiet despite being diesel-powered, plus doesn't have to futz around with FRA time-share waivers like light-rail has to, it's certainly given food for thought and of course been cause for even more delay . . .
Want to ask more questions? Visit these forums instead of here.
So do I.
http://www.coloradorailcar.com/latest-news.htm
Lets hope they get some more quickly (as these seem to be pretty good machines)
Mark
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2004/06/03/262.html
For a little history of the zoetrope:
http://courses.ncssm.edu/gallery/collections/toys/html/exhibit10.htm
A lot of gallons.
"Liverpool Street is Britain's busiest station. Over 123 million people pass through it each year. 20% of them are not travelling. 24% are travelling to visit friends and relatives. 58% are male. They spend on average 25 minutes on the station."
Now that surprises me. If you had said "Guess which London main line station is the busiest?" Liverpool Street would not have got my vote. Waterloo probably would. I guess that there are just a lot more commuters coming in from the east than I thought. As for the UK's busiest, I'd probably have guessed Birmingham New Street.
"They spend on average 25 minutes on the station."
That doesn't particulalrly surprise me, although it was presumably David Fairthorne's reason for his title of the thread. It is a main line station, after all, and some of its train services are not all that frequent. It also has shops, bars, etc. People might arrange to meet up there, and one oft hem arrives early. Etc., etc.
I wonder what the average time spent in GCT is?
Now that surprises me. Liverpool Street would not have got my vote. Waterloo probably would. As for the UK's busiest, I'd probably have guessed Birmingham New Street.
The web site says that Liverpool Street "has 123 million visitors", "over 110 million people pass through Victoria" but no figure is given for Waterloo. Birmingham New Street "serves over 31 million", and "over 34 million people visit Glasgow Central".
I wish they would express these numbers in the same terms for all stations, and say just what they mean. For Liverpool Street they call 123 million the "number of visitors" in one place and the "number who pass through" in another. Clearly they are not numbers of passengers, as we are told that 20% are not passengers. The people who pass through the station presumably include those going between the street and the underground via the station concourse.
You may be right about Waterloo being the busiest station. On the TfL London Rail web site, there is a (rather crude) map showing AM peak period volumes, in which Waterloo appears to have more passengers (denoted by a thicker line) than either Liverpool Street or Victoria.
"They spend on average 25 minutes on the station."
That doesn't particularly surprise me
That's 2,340 people averaged over all times of day or night and all days of the week, or several complete train loads.
Many users of Liverpool Street are commuters and/or arriving passengers, and I don't think they would spend much time in the station. Assuming that 50% of the people fall into those categories and spend an average of 5 minutes, then the other 50% must spend an average of 45 minutes, which seems to me surprising, and even improbable.
Right, and that's because your assumptions are clearly not right!! I used Liverpool St on a number of occasions, for the Stansted Express, and I oftentimes arrive just as one is leaving -- so that's 15 mins I spend in the station right there. Stansted Express is one of the more frequent services there, so imagine what happens to daily commuters who have gone shopping after work and then get to the station only to realize they have just missed a service that ran on a 30 min headway... Most people do not time their arrival to coincide with the train departures unless they are waiting for an intercity express that runs every 2 hours -- even then, people arrive up to 30 mins early for the fear of missing it. If you sit at Glasgow Central one afternoon rush, it will become very clear!
AEM7
I was trying to estimate how many people would be unlikely to spend a significant amount of time in the station, and I identified (a) commuters and (b) arriving passengers (including of course arriving commuters). My estimate was that those categories comprise 50% of people who use the station, and that they spend on average 5 minutes at the station. Departing Stansted Express passengers do not fall into either of those categories.
Most commuter routes run at least every 15 minutes, so I don't think commuters would (on average) have to wait long. Arriving commuters usually go straight to work, and what fraction of departing commuters go shopping before missing a train?
I really have difficulty in believing that the *average* time spent in Liverpool Street station can possibly be 25 minutes.
Depends on the sampling methodology. If their sampling methodology is to walk around the station and ask people "how long have you been here", I can believe that the result is 25 mins. It's hard to sample people if they're walking through the station and not stopping.
Also, are you sure about the wording. The "average time spent by each passenger" is something very different from "time spent by average passenger".
OK, I concur with your observation that arriving passengers (particularly commuters) do not hang around. However, you have already established that 20% of those who are in Liverpool St. are not passengers. So arriving passengers make up about 40% of the total. If you look at passenger counts, morning commuters probably make up about 50% of all arriving passengers -- so that's 20% of the total. So 20% of the total spend 5 mins at the station.
Now consider the other arriving passengers: lesiure travellers to London who are a bit lost; intercity travellers who need to stop and buy breakfast or lunch before heading off to meeting; people who are meeting other people... granted, an average of 45 mins is unlikely, but again, that may be due to the sampling methodology.
AEM7
Yes that's what I was thinking; I doubt that they would question people who looked as if they were in a hurry, so the sample was probably not representative.
Also, are you sure about the wording. The "average time spent by each passenger" is something very different from "time spent by average passenger".
If you are distinguishing between the mean and the median, they probably mean the mean. The exact wording is:
"Liverpool Street is Britain's busiest station. Over 123 million people pass through it each year. 20% of them are not travelling. 24% are travelling to visit friends and relatives. 58% are male. They spend on average 25 minutes on the station."
morning commuters probably make up about 50% of all arriving passengers -- so that's 20% of the total. So 20% of the total spend 5 mins at the station.
That seems reasonable, and evening commuters probably make up another 20%. Their average wait is about 7.5 mins, and allowing time to get from the station entrance to the train might give you 10 minutes or so, but let's be generous and allow 15 minutes. Then the average time spent by the 40% who are commuters is 10 minutes, or 20 minutes per day per commuter.
The other 60% (arrivals, departures and non-passengers) would have to spend an average of 35 minutes – still way too high.
I don't remember seeing that phenomenon in London, but when I lived there most suburban trains had one slam door per 10 to 12 person "compartment". Nowadays they have fewer (sliding) doors and more standing room.
as much as 20 minutes before the train leaves, frequently when an earlier train serving another line is at the platform.
I suppose they want to get seats. At London termini you would only be let onto the platform when your train was next to leave.
That map is decidedly odd. Charing X to London Bridge overcrowded by less than 1% in rush hour? I don't think so! (Unless they've averaged the two directions, which would be a bit obscurantistic).
It also seems to have a hell of a lot of people jumping from the viaduct half-way between New X / New X Gate / Deptford and London Bridge.
Anyway, the really overcrowded bits are:
(1) the Chatham Main Line into Victoria
(2) the lines into London Bridge
(3) the Tilbury lines beyond West Ham
(4) the Great Eastern Main Line beyond Stratford
(5) all lines into Marylebone (!)
(6) one of the two lines into Paddington (Presumably the GWML, whilst the less crowded one is HX)
These really fall into two categories: firstly those with huge passenger flows (2)(4) and those with inadequate infrastructure to bear even moderate ones (the rest).
(3) is the simplest of the lot: they should run more trains, and double-track Upminster - Grays.
(6) could be fairly easily resolved by better flighting of trains on the relief lines.
(1) really could do with sending the fast trains over the Catford Loop, preferably flighted so that some sort of local service can run.
(5) is however a big problem. There are simply too many stations between Marylebone and Princes Risborough, no passing loops, and too little opportunity for short turns. There would be room to quadruple the line from Wembley to Beaconsfield, but this would be expensive, as among other things a 200 yd tunnel would be needed. A simpler solution may be to close all intermediate stations in Greater London (they all have better used alternatives) and perhaps put a connection in and electrify to allow Denham, Denham Golf Club, and Gerrard's Cross to be served by the Central Line. The slowest services from Marylebone would then be left with only 5 intermediate stops to Princes Risborough, allowing more trains to run non-stop to Banbury.
They are using the Strategic Rail Authority measure of "passengers in excess of capacity" (PIXC). It is the excess of passengers over seats (plus standard sized standing spaces), where unused capacity is not deducted from the excess. It is measured over the three-hour AM peak period, and yes I think it does include trains in both directions. Normally it's only published for entire TOCs, not individual stretches of line. I believe the train operating companies are penalized if they have too many PIXCs. The PIXC measure may serve its intended purpose, but I don't think it's a good measure of overcrowding.
a hell of a lot of people jumping from the viaduct
The South Eastern service is notorious and some people get desperate; at that rate they will soon have no passengers left!
That's one reason why I don't entirely trust the map. In some places (but not all) colors are superimposed on one another. There is a similar map for the inner parts of the underground at this TfL London Rail site. If the line widths were correct, they could be more meaningful than the PIXC values.
those with huge passenger flows ... and those with inadequate infrastructure to bear even moderate ones
Based on the dubious data on the map, I agree with most of your analysis.
You mention "flighting" which means (I think) that you run a fast train, then a slower one and so on followed by a gap before the next flight. This arrangement is used on Metro North from Grand Central, where in rush hours each flight may contain as many as five trains. Flighting can be used on any two track line, and should be considered before adding extra tracks.
On the Chatham lines there are two two-track routes both having local stations, so you cannot simply dedicate the Catford loop to fast trains and the main line to slow trains. I believe that some fast trains actually do use the Catford loop.
We have discussed the Marylebone line before, and I agree that the inner stations should be closed. They are probably kept open with minimal service to avoid the legalities and politics of closing them.
They do indeed - the last time I used the Chatham lines I was surprised to find my return train to London going that way. Even Eurostars get sent that way sometimes.
I wonder how necessary the local service on the Catford Loop really is? It's only half-hourly, often has only two- or three-car trains, and my observation at Blackfriars is that they do not load well in the offpeak. Most of its stations are pretty near others with more frequesnt services that serve more useful destinations. It would provide useful extra capacity for longer-distance services if the local stations on the loop were closed. Catford station, the most important, is virtually next door to Catford Bridge station on the Mid-Kent line, after all.
It would provide useful extra capacity for longer-distance services if the local stations on the loop were closed.
The Catford loop line is useful in that it helps to divert passengers away from the London Bridge high-level bottleneck.
West of Nunhead, the Catford loop line is shared with two tph from Victoria to Dartford via Lewisham and Bexleyheath, and there is a recent proposal by the Strategic Rail Authority to add two tph from Victoria to Sidcup via Lewisham which would also share that part of the Catford loop line.
Cannon Street has only three tracks through London Bridge, and it really needs four, like Charing Cross. To work around this problem, some peak-hour trains arriving at Cannon Street return empty via Blackfriars sidings, Nunhead and Lewisham.
As for the Catford loop local service, Catford is the only station with another one next door. The other stations (Crofton Park, Bellingham, Beckenham Hill and Ravensbourne) have no convenient alternative. Under the SRA proposal there would be additional trains in the peak hours from Blackfriars to Bellingham, and the Catford Bridge service would be reduced.
Yes, all three of them.
West of Nunhead, the Catford loop line is shared with two tph from Victoria to Dartford via Lewisham and Bexleyheath, and there is a recent proposal by the Strategic Rail Authority to add two tph from Victoria to Sidcup via Lewisham which would also share that part of the Catford loop line.
An obvious capacity improvement would be to run those just before the loop trains. Stations to Peckham Rye would have better SLL service.
Cannon Street has only three tracks through London Bridge, and it really needs four, like Charing Cross. To work around this problem, some peak-hour trains arriving at Cannon Street return empty via Blackfriars sidings, Nunhead and Lewisham.
If they both had 4, there would be nowhere for the trains to go, as the section Borough Market Junction to North Kent East Junction is still only 6 tracks. Indeed, Cannon St used to have 4 tracks from London Bridge - it says something that one of them was removed.
As for the Catford loop local service, Catford is the only station with another one next door. The other stations (Crofton Park, Bellingham, Beckenham Hill and Ravensbourne) have no convenient alternative.
If you live within walking distance of Crofton Park, you will also be within walking distance of Brockley, Honor Oak Park, or Ladywell. Bellingham could easily be shifted to the other end of Broadmead on the Mid Kent Line. One side of Beckenham Hill is close to Lower Sydenham station, the other is a golf course. No-one lives near Ravensbourne really, and anyone who does would use Shortlands as it has more trains.
Under the SRA proposal there would be additional trains in the peak hours from Blackfriars to Bellingham, and the Catford Bridge service would be reduced.
That is what is known as stupid. It is widely lambasted for cutting service to Lewisham (for DLR). The pressure groups are out to kill that proposal. A better plan would be to run the following peak services on the Hayes Line:
- Charing X, Waterloo E, London Bridge, Ladywell and all stations.
- Blackfriars, Elephant, Denmark Hl, Peckham Rye, Nunhead, Lewisham, Ladywell and all stations.
It's still nowhere near ideal. Really huge track works are needed. But the SRA has no money...
I don't think that's relevant, because the South London line runs on its own tracks, called the "Atlantic" tracks.
Indeed, Cannon St used to have 4 tracks from London Bridge - it says something that one of them was removed
Cannon Street station is still very important, as it has the capacity to turn 25 trains per hour. But there isn't the capacity through London Bridge for all 25 Cannon Street trains to both arrive and depart via London Bridge.
Due to dwell times at London Bridge station, no platform can handle more than about 14 to 18 tph. In the AM peak platform 1 lacks the capacity for all down trains. In the PM peak platform 3 lacks the capacity for all up trains. Hence the empty Cannon Street trains returning via Blackfriars sidings where they reverse to go to Lewisham avoiding London Bridge.
As I understand it, before 1976, all trains *to* Cannon Street used to cross over all trains *from* Charing Cross; Cannon Street trains used the Borough Market crossover two trains at a time, hence two up tracks were needed at Borough Market junction. But the service became too unrealiable, and the signalmen couldn't handle it, so the CS and CX lines were separated through London Bridge. Also the platform-less track 7 was added, giving four tracks through London Bridge for CX trains and three for CS trains.
[on the Catford loop] you will also be within walking distance [...]
Passengers could be persuaded to take other routes, but the idea is to make more use of the Catford loop, not less.
That is what is known as stupid. It is widely lambasted for cutting service to Lewisham (for DLR).
The problem is that the flat crossover at Lewisham is a bottleneck, limiting the number of trains that can go that way.
i had a look at the map after I posted my previous statement. Crofton Park could be handily replaced by a new station in Dalrymple Road, midway between Brockley and Honor Oak Park on the Brighton main line out of London Bridge. That line is scheduled to have East London Line trains; an extra station would be handy for the new, frequent Underground service. Bellingham station could be shifted to the other side of the estate, as Rail Blue said, and would split a longish gap between two stations on the Mid kent line. Beckenham Hill and Ravensbourne are a bigger problem, but they are not heavily used.
Users of local stations on the Catford loop could find other routes, but most would add to the London Bridge bottleneck.
I would like to add a Catford loop service to Victoria, and extend the existing Blackfriars service through the Thameslink.
Strangely Connex did better in terms of performance targets than Stagecoach-SWT. Personally, I'd like to see Govia take over the lot, because then they'd have a right to write "Southern" on the sides of the trains :-D
There is a similar map for the inner parts of the underground at this TfL London Rail site. If the line widths were correct, they could be more meaningful than the PIXC values.
I love their prediction that the JLE will go from being hugely underused (H&C nearing Hammersmith style) to being packed out! Wishful thinking award to TfL! Note that even in that parallel universe, no-one wants to ride the section East of Canary Wharf.
Joking aside, there are obvious things which need to be done:
Starting with the simplest, run more Northern Line trains. Don't have all the crossing over at Kennington in Rush Hour - there isn't capacity for it! People can walk across the platform. Bias the Northern end in favour of Barnet. Insert some short turns Archway - Tooting Broadway via Bank.
Jubilee Line: run alternate trains to Charing X to boost the frequency on the busier section to Willesden Green.
Next level of difficulty: lengthen trains on the Drain.
Next level of difficulty: improve the junctions at Earl's Court so that more District Line service can run. Use Putney Bridge for short turns.
Big bucks level: relieve the Victoria Line, the Northern part of the Piccadilly Line and the Central Line from St Paul's to Stratford with new lines.
Well, if station signage is anything to go by, I'd've said Clapham Junction.
As for the UK's busiest, I'd probably have guessed Birmingham New Street.
It's also incredibly badly designed, which rather adds to its air of business.
In terms of number of trains that call, not in terms of passenger flow.
AEM7
aem7 is correct. About 2000 trains per day pass through Clapham Junction, but many of them don't stop there.
According to The Most Used Stations in Outer London, the number of passengers entering the station each day is about 13,000.
As best I could tell, there didn't seem to be much in the vicinity of Clapham Junction that would draw huge numbers of riders. It seemed to be an ordinary residential area.
To me all parts of London have their individual differences, but looked at objectively you are right. Clapham Junction station is the area's most distinguishing feature. The station is surrounded by small row houses, built in the late nineteenth century.
There is a large shopping centre nearby. (Incidentally, Clapham Junction is not in Clapham!)
Not only that but it isn't much of a junction either, in the sense that very few passenger carrying trains merge or diverge there. They simply keep going straight ahead on the tracks that they are already on. Otherwise the name is correct!
Clapham Jct. was constructed before Clapham Jct. area became a London suburb.
Examples:
Needham Jct. in MA is actually in Dedham. It connects the Needham Branch with the Franklin main line.
Attica Jct. in OH (Norfolk Southern/NKP) is not in Attica, OH, which is on the branch. The mainline passes in the vicinity of Bellevue, OH if I recall correctly.
Pacific Jct. is actually in Texas, a location where a planned transcontinental railroad branched off from (I think) the Katy mainline.
White River Jct. in VT is where the White River branches off from the Connecticut River, and where the White River branch joins the main line.
Counter-examples:
Copley Jct. on the MBTA Green Line lies just beyond the Copley Sq. subway station and connects the main line to the Huntingdon Ave or Arborway Branch.
Carstairs Jct. in Scotland is so called because it lies in the town of Carstairs. It connects the Edinburgh branch to the LMS/LNWR Glasgow main line.
Trolleybuses (Upside Down Railways) terminating adjacent to the Scrubs Lane entrance to Willesden Junction showed 'NEAR WILLESDEN JUNCTION' as the destination , ie: "Goes to terminus near Willsden Junction which is near Willesden !
Anyone remember where this came from? Goodies? Python?
The Goon Show? Certainly it was Peter Sellers. [My daughter lives in Balham.]
The point was that it was a pseudo-American accent - compare the pronunciation of Birmingham, Alabama, with that of Birmingham, England (Birming-Ham versus Birmingum).
As in the movie The Lavender Hill Mob?
Absolutely. The self same Lavender Hill.
Wonderful movie.
I thnk the statistic for its being the busiest station refers to trains that stop, though it becomes even busier if you add the ones that pass through. The reason, of course, is that it is served by *both* Waterloo-bound *and* Victoria-bound trains. It is thus useful for transferring between the two routes, of course, though I rather suspect not many people use this facility.
In fact all Waterloo trains (except Eurostar) pass through Clapham Junction, as do almost all trains to and from the west part of Victoria station (the Brighton lines).
You'd be surprised. There are a number of incredibly useful transfers available there - off the top of my head:
1) SW/SC to WLL for Watford (change for the West Midlands and the North-West)
2) SW(Main)/SC to Windsor Lines for Reading (change for other parts of the West Midlands, South Wales, and the South-West)
3) SC to SW (useful if coming from Gatwick, Brighton or anywhere on the coast between Chichester (via Hove) and Hastings and trying to get somewhere on the SW suburban)
4) Slightly more disreputably, SC to SW (to Waterloo) - the fare-dodgers' connection
5) And if the SW Main Slow Lines are fncked, you can always get a Windsor Lines train and change for the SC if you're going to Epsom, Ashtead, Leatherhead, Box Hill & Westhumble, or Dorking (North).
Certainly the first one only occurs hourly, but you should see the number of people on the footbridge changing from their train from Watford! Really, the Manchester/Liverpool/Birmingham to Brighton via Watford and Clapham should be restored, but someone decided to fragment the railways...
Who would operate it. And what would be the point given that CrossCountry runs practically the same service? Manchester/Liverpool/Birmingham to Oxford to Reading to Brighton.
AEM7
The point is that the route via Oxford is ridiculously slow. If you can time the connection right, it's quicker from Birmingham to Brighton changing at Watford and Clapham.
Admittedly it has been a few years since I read the Crosscountry schedule, since I wasn't all that interested in Operation Princess. In my mind XC trains are still hauled by Class 86's with Mk.II stock. Oh I feel old.
My recollection of the XC service plan was that they had basically four prongs coming out of Birmingham New St: the NE prong (Aberdeen/Edinburgh/Berwick/York/Chesterfield/Birmingham) and the NW prong (Glasgow/Carlisle/Oxenholme/Manchester Oxford Road/Birmingham) -- then those services came out as the SW prong (Bristol Temple Meads/Plymouth/etc) or as the SE prong (Basingstoke/Oxford/Reading/Brighton/Portsmouth/Southampton).
Now Rail Blue can you clue me in on what happened to that oddball that went from Birmingham New St to Paddington. Gosh, I even forget what type of stock is on that since it can't be an 86, was it one of the 47 runs?
Oh and what happened to the Birmingham Electrics into Euston -- or is that a VWC run?
AEM7
(formerly 86 213 'Lancashire Witch')
Not Darlington? And surely Derby? And Basingstoke comes after Reading:
....Basingstoke, Winchester, Southampton Central, Brockenhurst, Lymington, Bournemouth and Poole, perhaps? Possibly Southampton Airport too, but I don't think so.
It's changed quite a bit. The main change is that the Virgin Voyager trains have come in, replacing the HSTs plus loco-hauled (class 47) mark II coahces mixture. Essentially they doubled the frequency and halved the size of the trains (now four cars only). Prdictable overcrowding now occurs - since if the service gets better, more people start using it.....
The Brighton trains were only ever a minority - most of the ones down through Oxford always went to Southampton and Bournemouth, as they still do. As I said in another post, I think the Brighton-Milton Keynes, later Brighton-Watford Junction idea made more sense, but noiw that it is only Gatwick Airport-Watford Junction I doubt if any non-railfan going to or from Brighton wouyld use it.
"Now Rail Blue can you clue me in on what happened to that oddball that went from Birmingham New St to Paddington."
That was a weirdo. There was more than one each way, actually. Some of them were Liverpool Lime Street-Paddington, which was even odder. They don't exist any more - they were at the end of the BR era, pre-Virgin.
"Birmingham Electrics into Euston -- or is that a VWC run?"
The Birmingham-Euston service has always been Virgin West Coast, never Virgin Cross-Country. It's still half-hourly, on the odd occasions when the WCML is fully open (8-). The damn thing was closed completely for nine days recently. All sorts of weird bustitutions - change at Luton Airport Parkway for Milton Keynes; Change at Kettering for Rugby (I kid you not); etc. etc.
Fytton.
NE: Tamworth, Burton, Derby, Chesterfield, Sheffield, Rotherham Central (branch to Leeds City only - the Wakefield service was a later diversion), Doncaster, York, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle Central (later extended to Edinburgh and Aberdeen).
NW: Wolverhampton HL, Stafford, Crewe (branches Wilmslow, Stockport, Manchester Piccadilly, and Runcorn, Liverpool Lime St), Warrington BQHL, Wigan NW, Preston (seasonal through service to Blackpool N IINM), Lancaster, Penrith, Carlisle, Carstairs (branch to Edinburgh), Glasgow Central.
SW: Worcester Shrub Hill, Cheltenham Spa Lansdown (branch to Gloucester Central, Newport, Cardiff Central, Bridgend, Port Talbot, Neath General, Swansea High St), Gloucester Eastgate, Bristol TM, (Weston-super-Mare), Bridgwater, Tiverton Junction, Exeter SD, Dawlish, Newton Abbot (branch to Torquay and Paignton), Totnes, Plymouth, then various stations to Newquay and Penzance.
SE: Solihull, Leamington Spa, Banbury, Oxford, Didcot, Reading, Basingstoke, Wincehester, Eastleigh, Southampton Central, Brockenhurst, Bournemouth, Poole, Weymouth Town.
Various alterations were made. Rotherham lost its XC service, whilst Wakefield gained one. The branch to Leeds was through-routed to the North. Oxenholme popped up in the North-West. When Virgin effed up Operation Princess, Blackpool was lost, as was Liverpool.
The two Southern sections saw the biggest changes. Worcester lost its service entirely, Gloucester Eastgate closed and trains reversed at Central until about a year or two ago when Virgin completely wrote Gloucester out of the timetable. When Bristol Parkway opened, the Welsh services were diverted via the Severn Tunnel, consequently becoming very slow and poorly patronised, so the service got hacked back. Bridgwater also disappeared. The SE arm always looked rather small compared to the others, so services to Portsmouth and to Brighton appeared, with Brighton running via Milton Keynes Central.
Birmingham International gradually replaced Solihull, before they ran out of slots between New St and Cov, leading to some returning to the route via Solihull (variously stopping or not depending on how obscurantist they wanted to be about this fact) and the extremely bold decision to run some NW-Brighton via the Trent Valley.
Then from about 1987 it got hacked back into the simple X via Birmingham which it had started out as, usually with the reasons being "to make it attractive to privatisation" and "to cut costs".
Had BR stayed, the likelihood is that the table 49 services would have been uprated and interlinked with the ones in 50 and 51 (49 being Liverpool to East Anglia, both via Birmingham and via Sheffield; 50 the North to the South Coast; 51 the North to the South-West).
The Paddington - Birmingham service was originally a very roundabout Paddington - Liverpool service. It had nothing to do with XC, but was rather a response to the unpopularity of killing off the Paddington (via High Wycombe) - Birmingham SH - Wolverhampton LL - Shrewsbury - Chester - Birkenhead Woodside service. Naturally it was deliberately made unattractive for through passengers, running via Oxford, and the St Andrew's Curve into New St. It vaguely became part of XC until it got killed off about 2 years ago. VT wanted to run a second Pad to New St service (via Stroud) at the time of Operation Princess, but were only allowed to run a brief Birmingham - Swindon service.
Classic Intercity CrossCountry!!
http://mercurio.iet.unipi.it/pix/gb/electric/86/86_2/BR-86_230-260/86249-S35.jpg
http://mercurio.iet.unipi.it/pix/gb/electric/86/86_2/BR-86_230-260/86252-10.jpg
Dead Line
In BR days it wasn't very frequent. But *after* they fragmented the railways, South Central (now renamed Southern) put on an hourly Brighton-Milton Keynes service via Kensington Olympia, connecting for other major midlands and northwestern cities at Milton Keynes Central.
It's now been cut back to Gatwick Airport-Watford Junction; I assume that was a commercial decision resulting from relatively low usage of the service. There are frequent trains between Brighton and Gatwick, and midlands and northern connections can also be made at Watford Junction. But a three-seat ride from Brighton to Birmingham isn't very attractive, as an alternative more frequent three-seat ride, with more comfortable rolling stock, can be obtained by changing at Victoria and Euston!
For those unfamiliar--the figures do not include the two Underground stations (except passengers 'stolen' from the Central line at Stratford- for a quicker and more interesting journey. I did it myelf when living at Leyton ! )
The "one" railway has four parts, and I will look at the four timetables and estimate the number of trains on each.
For those unfamiliar ... passengers 'stolen' from the Central line at Stratford
Stratford station is the first stop out of Liverpool Street, and the Central line tube temporarily surfaces there. Stratford has cross-platform transfers, and the Central line 'steals' passengers from commuter rail just as commuter rail 'steals' from it.
Stratford station is the first stop out of Liverpool Street, and the Central line tube temporarily surfaces there. Stratford has cross-platform transfers, and the Central line 'steals' passengers from commuter rail just as commuter rail 'steals' from it."
Stratford station is deliberately designed that way to facilitate transfers, of course, just as Mile End is designed for cross-platform transfers between the Central and District Lines. The designers of the eastern extension of the Central Line, working in the 1930s, were quite bright! In the 1960s, the Victoria Line's designers displayed similar intelligence at Finsbury Park, Highbury & Islington and Oxford Circus.
Stratford station is very convenient, but the new Stratford International station on the CTRL is less conveniently placed.
Trains leaving Liverpool Street in the noon hour (12:00 – 12:59) and in the peak hour (17:00 – 17:59), weekdays.
Anglia to Norwich – 2 and 2.
Stansted Express to Stansted – 4 and 2.
Great Eastern to Colchester or Braintree or Ipswich or Clacton or Walton or Witham – 5 and 9.
Great Eastern to Southend Victoria or Southminster – 4 and 8.
Great Eastern to Shenfield or Gidea Park or Ilford – 5 and 14.
West Anglia to Cambridge or Kings Lynn or Stansted or Hertford East or Bishops Stortford – 6 and 10.
West Anglia to Chingford or Cheshunt or Enfield Town – 6 and 10.
TOTAL – 32 and 55.
Anglia and Stansted Express have typical long distance ridership. Great Eastern and West Anglia are mainly commuter lines, and they account for 80% to 90% of trains, but we can only guess what proportion of their passengers are commuters.
Some coastal towns have quite a few commuters, especially Southend. Great Eastern calls the Shenfield and Southend line a "Metro". Trains leave Liverpool Street for Southend Victoria at 10 minute intervals in the peak hour; journey time is 60 minutes. Local service to Shenfield is more frequent than 10 minutes but less regular (having skip stops and short turns).
Words fail me ! :-)
Or if you prefer "trains departing Liverpool Street", which means the same thing. Unlike nearby Broad Street, they will return.
(Ugh ! That half demolished roof ! )
TALLAHASSEE - A proposed ballot measure to kill Florida's voter-mandated high-speed rail project cleared its first milestone Tuesday, with enough signatures to warrant review by the state Supreme Court.
Elections officials have verified nearly 55,000 petitions submitted by Derail the Bullet Train, a campaign led by Florida Chief Financial Officer Tom Gallagher. That's more than 10 percent of the 488,722 needed to make the ballot.
Besides collecting nearly half a million signatures to go before voters, all citizen initiatives must get a green light from Florida's high court, which makes sure they deal with only one subject and are fairly described in their ballot title and summary. That review is triggered when a campaign has 10 percent of the signatures needed.
In 2000, voters approved a ballot measure ordering the state to build a high-speed train, with the first leg running from Tampa to Orlando and later connections to Fort Lauderdale and Miami. Gov. Jeb Bush has lamented the cost of the project and backs the repeal drive.
Gallagher said Tuesday the drive has collected more than half the signatures needed. To get on the Nov. 2 ballot, the necessary number must be verified by Aug. 3.
[Last modified June 1, 2004, 23:54:21]
There has been a lot of issues about these companies that get paid per petition. It's big industry. But they disrupt business under the guise of free speech and refuse to leave. Besides they dont' know what they're talking about on anything, there is no free speech on private property if you're getting paid to do petition work. Also Glenda Hood is the ex-Orlando Mayor who backed LRT there and beautiful neighborhoods.
------------------------------
Bob Mahlburg | Tallahassee Bureau
Posted June 2, 2004, 4:48 PM EDT
RELATED STORIES
The State In Brief
Jun 2, 2004
Rail foe fears tax could be required
May 29, 2004
TALLAHASSEE -- A group trying to stop Florida's high-speed rail train broke state election law and should have tens of thousands of petition signatures tossed out, train backers charged in a lawsuit filed today.
Lakeland millionaire C.C. "Doc" Dockery said the anti-train group, backed by state Chief Financial Officer Tom Gallagher and Gov. Jeb Bush, paid a California firm to collect signatures to try to force an election on repealing the bullet train. But the paid petition gatherers did not follow a law requiring their names and addresses on each petition, Dockery said.
As a result, the nearly 200,000 signatures collected are legally invalid, Dockery charged. With an Aug. 3 deadline to have 488,722 signatures verified to put the measure on the ballot, that could slow down or kill the effort, Dockery said.
"Essentially, you're starting over," Dockery said, adding with a smile that if the effort failed, "It would be very nice."
Elections officials have verified nearly 55,000 petitions submitted by Derail the Bullet Train. Dockery's attorney, former state bar association head John Frost II, said the request for a court injunction to invalidate those signatures was filed early today in Leon County Circuit Court.
Dockery has spent more than a decade pushing for a high-speed train to connect major Florida cities including Orlando and Tampa. Florida voters endorsed construction of the train in a statewide vote.
Bush and Gallagher call it a boondoggle and have fought to derail it. Mark Mills, a spokesman for Derail the Bullet Train, said he couldn't comment on the legal merits of the lawsuit but said the group's lawyers are confident that the petition meets the law's requirements.
"This is a frivolous lawsuit without merit intended to slow our momentum," Mills said.
The suit names as a defendant Secretary of State Glenda Hood, who must approve the measure for the ballot after verifying signatures. A spokeswoman for Hood said the secertary's chief lawyer was reviewing the lawsuit Wednesday and couldn't immediately comment.
The anti-train group needs to have the wording of its ballot measure approved by the state Supreme Court for clarity and to make sure it only deals with one subject. That review is triggered when a group gets 10 percent of the signatures, a milestone that was passed Tuesday. With the lawsuit, it's not clear whether the court review process could go forward.
Information from The Associated Press was used in this report. Bob Mahlburg can be reached at bmahlburg@orlandosentinel.com or 850-222-5564.
A parade of traffic that will not stop.
SMOOSH!
Also, does this have anything to do with that new GPS system they are installing in the manual block territories?
Anyway, I don't know this directly, but my best guess is that when one is in non-ASC territory you'll either constantly be registering a 15 mph signal in the cab or the display will be completely dark so one of those two choices.
There are usually indicators that verify the crossing is operating properly, in manual block or dark territory, in the form of a incandescent white light mounted some distance away from the crossing along the track and visible from the engineer's driving position. If that light is out, then the engineer should expect that the crossing is not operating properly.
But you knew that, didn't you? (And you could probably quote the exact rule no. that describes the light).
AEM7
Dylan
The engineer cannot usually see 20 seconds ahead, in that the crossing is still out of view by the time the crossbucks start coming down. If the engineer gets a signal that the crossbucks have failed, considering reaction time etc he/she still has a good 15 seconds to brake. I'd rather be hit by a train moving at 15 mph than one moving at 60 mph.
This analysis is completely different for freight trains because a freight engineer cannot simply throw on the brakes, and a freight engineer does not have electro-pneumatic brakes that are available on most MU's. Bad braking on a freight train can tear the train in half, as many people have discussed on this board.
AEM7
From the Billings Gazette
No, WMATA doesn't want to run the ads. They didnt' want to carry the ads. It was the folks who wanted to buy the ad space from WMATA who filed the suit, as stated in this passage from the article:
"Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority earlier this year declined to run ads submitted by the American Civil Liberties Union and three drug advocacy groups. The groups then filed suit, calling it an unconstitutional restriction."
Mark
Not really. The defendant made a good case that these advertisements would encourage illegal activity. That being said, I agree with the decision. Every American (whether as an individual or together as a group) has a constitutionally protected right to hold an idiotic position on any subject and the right to waste their money attempting to make others agree with their idiocy. God Bless America!
Finally, drug use is a victimless crime. The billions of dollars the government flushes down the toilet in fighting the "War on Drugs" can be better spent on intelligence, law enforcement, social programs and treatment for drug addicts. The money would even be better spent lining the pockets of already wealthy fat cats.
Then that still makes it a victimless crime, since nobody is hurt against their will.
And there are plenty of dangerous things that allow people to hurt or kill themselves. Nobody wants to ban knives.
That's one of the dumbest things I've ever seen posted on here.
And there are plenty of dangerous things that allow people to hurt or kill themselves. Nobody wants to ban knives.
The world needs knives. The world does not need cocaine.
*Leaves Flatbush Avenue around 7:30pm
<5> 241 St- New Lots Avenue[also Utica and Flatbush Avenues] - Express in Bronx[peak direction 3 Av-Gun Hill Road From 241 to Manhattan 6:15am-9:15am from New Lots to the Bronx 3:30pm-6:30pm], Manhattan and Brooklyn
Evenings & Weekends
(5) 241 Street - Bowling Green express in Manhattan local in Bronx
Nights
(5) 1am-5am Shuttle 241-180 Sts
(2) Flatbush Avenue - Dyre Avenue all times local in Bronx and Brooklyn, express in Manhattan
Advantages:
(5) and <5> will go back to 241 and allow for more East Side service on White Plains Road
(5) and <5> will both run express from 3 Av-149 St to E 180 St
(5) will run local north of E 180 St
<5> will also run express from E 180 St to Gun Hill Road
(2) will go back to Dyre and Dyre will have consistent West Side service(outside of G.O.s)
Dyre will have 24/7 Manhattan access
White Plains Road will have nothing but express service weekdays peak direction(like Pelham Bay Park)
White Plains Road will have MUCH more express service
5 service will be running on the lower White Plains Road line for an extra hour each evening
Dyre will have more Brooklyn service
Dyre will have a more stable line won't have to battle Woodlawn for service priorities(will battle 148 instead)
Disadvantages
241 will not have 24/7 Manhattan access
White Plains Road will not have the choice of 7th Avenue service
White Plains Road will not have the choice of Bronx local or Bronx Express
241 will have a late night shuttle
Dyre will lose Bronx Express service
Local stops below 180 will lose midday local service
241 will have less Brooklyn service
241 will have a less stable line, will end up having to battle with Woodlawn for service priorties
Local stops between E 180 St and Gun Hill Road will lose some rush hour service
After a few years, this confusing arrangement was changed to the basic one we see today.
What about weekend G.O.s? The 5 sometimes is a shuttle on weekends as well? I guess for daytime G.O.s the 2 could run to 241 Street so WPR can have direct weekend G.O. Manhattan service.
The MTA would have to spend extra money running the (5) an extra hour to Manhattan. 241 can not have Shuttle service starting at 10:13pm, it would have to be 11:17pm, meaning (5) will be in Manhattan after midnight.
Either that or change service around so the 5 can run to Bowling Green at nights(cut the 4 or 6, or connect the 3 to the 4 line so 3 can run to Woodlawn and 2 can be the Dyre Shuttle, transfer from 3 to 5 at 149 St-GC)
No, there is no need to expand the express service north of E180th. The (5) would make all stops all times.
The MTA would have to spend extra money running the (5) an extra hour to Manhattan. 241 can not have Shuttle service starting at 10:13pm, it would have to be 11:17pm, meaning (5) will be in Manhattan after midnight.
I'd limit shuttle service to midnight-5 AM weekdays, starting later on weekends. Yes, this means more #5 express service. That's always a good thing.
Also Dyre gets more rush hour service under this plan
138-GC
149-GC
3 Av-149
E 180
Gun Hill
241
This plan has all trains running local north of Gun Hill Road, however some special (3) trains[2-3] can run super express from 241 sometimes if needed, although they would usually run local to give Pelham Parkway more service during the rush
2 Dyre-180
3 148-New Lots
4 Woodlawn-149/GC
5 241-Flatbush
Disatvantage:
-Woodlawn passengers have to transfer
-No service between 135/Lenox & 149/GC:
Can be a big disadvantage if a lot of passaengers transfer 2->4 @ 149/GC
Shuttle Bus Service can cross over from 145 St to 149 St GC every 20 minutes though to connect the (3) and (5).
Here's another way (not recommended, I would rather build the (3)/(4) connection than do this)
Run the (3) to Woodlawn late nights via a series of switching, reversing(yes it IS possible)
Service would be low enough not to cause any major delays
(3) would have to backup at 149 St GC lower level (or use M track near Jackson and backup) backup to 138 St GC, then go up to upper (4) level.
Either that or (3) to 149 GC, switches back to Manhattan while (4) Shuttle waits upstairs
Here is another way
5 241 - Bowling Green
6 Pelham Bay Park -125
Both 2 and 5 will run on the lower White Plains(West Farms) Line. As a compensation to Pelham Riders 5 would run express to speed up their ride(6 would be timed connection at 125)
With no service i meant subway - bus shuttle can be, if there are no
regular lines connecting Lenox with Lex
>I would rather build the (3)/(4) connection than do this
I would prefer a reconstruction of 96 St, so the Lenox Term line can be
a 24/7 local (to SF) and the VCP line gets an express.
(4)
(5)
(N)
(R)
(Q)
(W)
(L)
I was wondering, is there any logical reason to list the Broadway trains in any way other than the alphabetical order of (N)(Q)(R) and (W)? Or why the Broadway trains are listed before the (L)?
The only reason I can think of is because when the stripmaps were printed, the (N) and (R) were local, while the (Q) and (W) were express, so they were grouped together on the stripmaps.
:-) Andrew
If you are a LIRR rider I'm sure you have heard or seen this signal. Going west in the Jamaica (EAST SIDE) complex there is a subway signal that acts as a final block heading into Jamaica's track 4,5,6. Whenever I see it it is always aspecting red but what is its purpose and why not just give the regular dot signal or the small rectangle dot signals?
-Dylan
http://www.nynewsday.com/news/local/newyork/columnists/ny-nysub033830551jun03,0,6961946,print.column?coll=ny-ny-columnists
David
I just do not like the idea of roaming agents.
While the token booth, the need to handle money, and the need for a sales agent have all disapeared, the need for a station agent has not.
There should be a booth, but not at all like todays booths. Something open, with low counters accessible from both sides of the fare control, with a station agent that can help people on either side. But an Agent who is always there.
There should be some video displays for all to see with transit and weather information on them.
Perhaps I should make a sketch of my "Fantasy Station Booth"
Elias
Would you settle for a clean toilet that works?
Read Meat is good for you.
Blue-green fuzzy meat is not good for you.
Elias
Blue-green-fuzzyburgers just need to be cooked a bit longer. What *I* am trying to figure out is who it was that decided that CHEESE with all that in it was not only OK to eat, but EXPENSIVE? (grin)
Topical: Anybody miss the NEDICKS stands in the subway? Or "YANKEE FRANKEE? THAT'S what I'm talkin' 'bout ... good old fashioned subway mystery meat!
YES YES YES! Nedicks was the best. And I loved how they did their buns.
Elias
Yes, and unfortunately, they loose a lot in the translation when you buy one in the Minniapolis Airport!
Nathans had the better hotdog.
Nedicks the better bun.
Elias
The Station Agent's "Booth" is a mostly open area with counters facing both the street and the controled side of the turnstyles. The counters are about 40 inches high, and are glassed in, but with openings about ten inches wide and about ten inches apart, thus allowing a more personal contact with the customer, yet protecting the agent from someone leaping over the counter to make a physical attack. The open areas can be quickly shutdown in the event a firearm is branished.
Of course the booth has no money, so there is little insentive to robbery. The agent may leave the booth to service vending machines, give directions, or assist customers, but needs to remain in the area during his or her tour of duty.
The restrooms may be unlocked (electonically) by the agent (one person at a time, occupied lights will be displayed.) Agents will assure that the restrooms are kept neat, but heavy cleaing is done by others.
The Police/Security booth is glassed in, with exits to either side. The glass is mirrored, so people cannot see inside. They will never know if an officer or other agent is in there or not. The booth agent will know. Security cameras are present over the turnstyles, but may or may not be on or operating. You just don't know, do you.
The Waiting Room Area is under the direct ovbservation of the Station Agent, At night, annunciators will warn of the arrival of trains, if people would rather wait where is is warmer and or more secure. Monitors will display changes or delays in service, weather conditions, and other information.
Elias
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?7
Matt
But I have never heard of a problem. This gives the customer (no)service agent time to sleep ;). Usually they are very helpful though and have time to since they are not selling fares. They are not always in the booth, but usually close by and available for assistance. Some stand right by the turnstiles and happily assist those in need, such as tourists. In the winter they are not always responsive to the CA button on the platform because everyone presses it as they are trying to find the heater button. The transition can be rough as some agents would rather sell fares than assist passengers, so until they are weeded out or change their attitues they are not very willing to help.
Unfortunately the CAs are being replaced at some stations by rent-a-cops to watch the TVMs during times of low ridership. They seem to try to help, but are not usually able to since it is not really part of the job. I would be bored silly sitting there for up to eight hours with nothing (really) to do!
Matt
All I know is, why not go into the 21st century, like the rest of the world, college campuses, and malls have.....emergency call boxes. The nice thing about these, besides being everywhere and anywhere, whent he button is pushed dispatch automatically knows the location. Just like those counties where 911 can locate your cell phone.
Besides, cranking 911 is illegal for two reasons(either jail or fine). One, it's a diversion tactic to commit a crime with no cops around. And B, it's a waste of time. I guess with the loss of payphones everyday, it's gonna be harder to be anonymous.
The older fire call boxes were all on a party lion. You pulled the handle, and a clockwork thingie rang out the code for that box. The FD responded. I did see a fire in a midtown building once, flames shooting out the windows and all. The fire box had already been pulled. You could tell by looking at it because the handle was hanging down. People were standing around pointing at the fire, a block away from this particular call box.
Thing is in a real fire, several boxes in the same area will be pulled, so they know to shake a leg, or whatever.
False alarms are a problem too. I heard that they put a phorsphorecent powder on the handles, and could then circulate through the crowd with a lamp to see who had powder on thier fingers. Maybe that's just a tail!
Elias
However in order to accomplish track upgrades, Guilford will take "advantate" of the Democratic National Convention's forced closing of Boston's North Station, and SUSPEND The Downeaster June 26-29, according to a TV news report last night. No indication if substitute bus service will be provided.
What really caught my attention was the last paragraph about possible excursion trains to points beyond Portland. If that gets going I may have to plan another Maine vacation for myself.
Mark
As we made our way downtown (via CPW Express/6 Av Express, stopping on the local side at 59th Street to avoid a garbage train), the Conductor kept saying the train was "Brooklyn-bound." However, when we got to West 4th Street, we pulled in on the local side, the Conductor asked the Train Operator whether the train would terminate at Second Avenue, and the Train Operator said that it would. Some people had boarded the train at various stations along the way figuring it was going to Brooklyn, while others had not boarded it, not knowing where it was going.
My group was headed for the West End Line, so they were able to transfer across the platform for a D train (which came in short order) and continue their trips. However, I was headed for the Brighton Line, so I had to go to Pacific Street on the D and transfer via the passageway to the Q at Atlantic Avenue (it's faster than going "around the horn" at Stillwell Avenue, especially since the Q would be on a 20-minute headway by the time I'd get there).
My points are these:
1. The crews have got to get used to the "enabler." 161st Street was not the only station at which there was a delay in opening the doors on this trip.
2. The train should have been signed up properly, or at least the signs should have been blanked.
3. The crew should have known at the outset where they were to take the train.
4. The Conductor should have made proper announcements all along, or at least should not have said that the train was going to Brooklyn when that was not evident.
5. One would think that after 70+ years of Concourse Line service at Yankee Stadium, RTO would be able to do it right.
David
Other problems may preclude opening of doors immediately. For example, if the train is extra long for the line, then the traincrew would have had to check safety clearances. If the crew don't open the doors, there might be a good reason.
2. The train should have been signed up properly, or at least the signs should have been blanked.
While rollsigns should generally be correct, sometimes operating circumstances mean that there isn't time to change the rollsign. I would rather have a train with the wrong rollsign than no train with the right rollsign.
3. The crew should have known at the outset where they were to take the train.
The crew may have been short-turned by control. On the operation of Red Sox Specials up here in Boston, the traincrew do not generally know where the train is going. Red Sox Specials usually leave from Blandford, goes into service at Kenmore, and then run up to Park and turn around. But sometimes they run to Government Center. It's impossible for the traincrew to know this until they reach Boylston, one stop before Park.
4. The Conductor should have made proper announcements all along, or at least should not have said that the train was going to Brooklyn when that was not evident.
The train crews have the right to assume the train will make a full run, especially if that was what they were told, to announce that fact. If the route was subsequently truncated, they have no choice but to announce "this train will terminate here for operating reasons". Perhaps he should have said "Manhattan-bound" rather than "Brooklyn-bound", but it's the same difference, especially when he thought he had a full run ahead of him.
5. One would think that after 70+ years of Concourse Line service at Yankee Stadium, RTO would be able to do it right.
They did most things right. You just didn't know it.
AEM7
I think David is in a better position to know what was done right than you -- especially from a customer service standpoint.
They are designed to get people into manhattan
It takes me forever to get home on the brighton line. Best bet id 4 train to union sqaure and catch a brighton train from there.
Now that I don't work in manhattan I drive in. I get home at a reasonable time
David
The train is 600 feet long. The platform is 660 feet long. The exterior guard lights on all the cars illuminated soon after the train stopped, but the doors did not open, suggesting that the Conductor tried to open the doors but the enabler was not actuated by the Train Operator. The doors eventually opened without the train having to move.
"While rollsigns should generally be correct, sometimes operating circumstances mean that there isn't time to change the rollsign. I would rather have a train with the wrong rollsign than no train with the right rollsign."
This was a "ballgame special." The game was well over three hours long. There was ample time to change the signs. After all, every sign had been changed to "D" (presumably from "B" since these cars are not normally used on the D).
"The train crews have the right to assume the train will make a full run, especially if that was what they were told, to announce that fact. If the route was subsequently truncated, they have no choice but to announce 'this train will terminate here for operating reasons'. Perhaps he should have said 'Manhattan-bound' rather than 'Brooklyn-bound', but it's the same difference, especially when he thought he had a full run ahead of him."
Since the train was a "ballgame special," and since the signs (as set by SOMEONE, presumably the crew that ended up operating it) were set for a routing that does not exist under regular operating conditions, there was no way for a passenger to know what a "full run" would be. Since the Conductor had to ask the Train Operator where the train would be terminating, obviously she didn't know where it would be terminating and probably the Train Operator didn't (at the time the train was put in service) either. The destination should have been made evident to the crew so they could tell their customers in time for the customers to make an informed decision about staying with the train or transferring to another line (as I would have transferred to the Broadway Line's Q train at 34th Street).
"They did most things right. You just didn't know it."
I've got over 15 years at NYC Transit. I can tell when things are being done right and when they aren't.
David
Not after what I'm going to tell you, a real horror story (not that I did not leave the Bronx from a disaster movie until 12 Midnight and I was not home until 1:50 AM this morning, a longer ride than the full trip on the A from Inwood to Far Rockaway. I did get my required sleep though.)
The 2253 from 205th was my train at 161st Street (I got there at 12:06 AM). There were several track gangs at 155th/8th and 145th Street, so it was a slow go. I understand and expect the trains to be slow at this time but this was pathetic. From 145 to 125, we were competiting with a non-revenue set of Redbirds (Car #'s 9305, and 9307 I saw), running on the local track with another track gang ahead, at 15 MPH. Things were supposed to be a little better from the 125 to 59 run but the T/O apparently was inexperienced, we did no more than 20 MPH, THE ENTIRE TIME. A purported 8 minute run becam 12 minutes as we dragged at 10 MPH or less below 86th Street. I went from C/R position car to the RF window in front to see what was going on. The T/O was OK until he messed up on the "dash" by pulling the train to a near stop for no reason, then started again. When we finally reached Dekalb, we were supposed to be there at 12:51, we were 13 minutes late at 1:04. Dekalb M/T tower was holding the N train on the opposite side for an apparent connection, but the doors closed and the train took off without the connection from the D.
Guess what? Another track gang south of Dekalb stalls the N in the tunnel for 4 minutes (I timed this on my watch), and holding up the D in the process. The D is already 17 minutes late at this point, it finally takes off after the N left and there was another D train behind it (of course, Murphy will make the delayed D train do a battery run on the West End portion as if the customers should wait another 2-3 minutes for the D train behind it.).
By the time the Q was able to pull into Dekalb, it was nearly 1:30 AM and I was so glad to end this journey at Newkirk 15 minutes later.
Why do the C/R's wait for their trains at Yankee Stadium, instead of waiting on the train with the motorman? It's management's way of making sure that the C/R's get a lunch break at 161, and don't fill out a "no lunch" OT slip.
Baseball specials were a good job at one point. Now, most terminals and yard dispatchers have work waiting for you as soon as you get back. They use the T/O's from the baseball specials to give a "break" to their regular crews. I'd rather just work the road.
Also last I saw they doubled as platform conductors until their train arrived.
David
Many times I've pushed the enabler before the C/R was ready - usually coming out of relays or as a put-in - only to get a buzz from him to push the enabler. On rarer occasions, you get enablers that don't work, causing the T/O to center his reverser at every stop so the doors will open - something even harder to remember.
While you don't say where the other door delays occurred, I'll make a guess at two locations - 145 and 59.
David
David
David
What time was this? I take it the 4 wasn't running local yet (since around that same time the D begins stopping at DeKalb, and you would have avoided the walk) -- if it was, then the 4/6 to Canal would have certainly been faster.
Seeing as you had a chance to walk past it, how did you like the new photographic display in the passageway to the Brighton line?
As for the photographic display at Atlantic/Pacific, I was half-asleep (the time being around midnight by then) and in such a hurry I didn't even notice it was there.
David
Check out the photographic display the next time you're in the neighborhood.
Find yourselves a copy of "The Story Of Metro" by Deiter. Even if you have to take one out on loan from a library--This piece of info will be critical to your success....especially the map of the 1968 ARS
That's all for now from the where the air is a little thinner
See you in two weeks
http://chnm.gmu.edu/metro/
This morning when I logged on to the nycsubway.org website, I was a bit taken back by the whole "no photo" premise of the home page. David makes several good and valid points.
This whole thing is becoming scary. I was just having a discussion yesterday with someone at work about this very subject. It is simply amazing to me how quickly Americans are willing to allow their hard won and defended freedoms to be decimated in order to obtain a sense of "security." The problem is that in a free society, we will never have a 100% security. Our consitutionally ordained freedoms ensure that absolute security can never be. If we have the freedom to assemble, to speak, to think, and to pursue "happiness", in the process security goes out the window. Any sense of security we gain by eliminating freedoms is a false sense of security at best. Only in a totalitarian state can security (from the government's point of view) approach anything like what our government, its agencies (including MTA, NJT, etc) would like. Is this the direction we are heading? I am afraid of the possible answer.
If something as seemingly innocent as railfan photography causes detention and harrassment of its participants, this nation is in big trouble. And it goes way beyond railfanning. Ultimately, if such things as rail phtography can be banned, who in this nation is safe from the American Security Gestapo? (They would probably go nuts if I brought out my digital audio recording equipment to record trains as I used to do).
I have normally been fairly conservative throughout most of my adult life, but things like this are turning me into a rabid civil libertarian. If you can take away the simple freedom of photography (especially photography taken from public locations like grade crossings) you can take away any freedom.
On another board dealing with broadcasting, we have had similar discussions about the current "crackdown" on broadcasters like Howard Stern. While I've never been a fan of Stern, if we silence him, we can silence any broadcast speech -- even religious speech, political speech, and so on.
Bottom line: if we allow the reduction or elimination of one freedom, we are in danger of losing greater freedoms in the long run. We have to do all we can to stop this madness before it's too late.
The banishment of civil rights such as this is NOT a conservative agenda. Conservatives stand up for civil rights much more than liberals do.
The govenment made some suggestions, i.e. bomb proof trash cans, greater vigilance etc. etc...
NOWHERE does it say anything about a photo ban!
THAT is a LOCAL (anal) interpretation carried to an extreme by bureaucrats.
BAN the BAN!
Elias
And while the federal govenment may have not dictated a ban on rail photography, it is comments by members of the administration (from W on down) that encourage over-reaction. Perfect example: as I was writing my original post, the radio station I am working for was in the middle of a newscast in which they played a cut from W in which he categorically stated, "We WILL secure our nation" (emphasis was by the President). Comments like this are all the ammunition the likes of NJT and MTA need to justify their actions....with or without specific guidelines on photography from Homeland Security.
I don't know how you square this statement with the plain facts of what recent administrations have done. Conservatives tend to construe civil rights rather literally. A conservative view is that "Freedom of speech" means freedom to speak, not freedom to express oneself in other ways. Robert Bork, who was nominated to the Supreme Court by a very conservative President, although not confirmed, believed that freedom of speech was limited to political speech, and not other kinds of speech. A liberal view is that "freedom of speech" encompasses all forms of expression, broadly construed.
Although not on-topic here, conservatives also tend to have tightly bounded notions of other rights too, such as the right to be free from unreasonable searches and seizures, the right to be represented by counsel, the right to be compensated for takings of property, the right of habeus corpus, and so forth. Conservatives tend to interpret those rights narrowly. Liberals tend to have an expanding and evolving view of what those rights encompass.
Justices of all stripes have upheld some abridgment of Constitutional rights, provided the State satisfies what's called "strict scrutiny." This basically means that the rule must satisfy a compelling governmental interest, and must be narrowly tailored to meet that interest. No one will dispute that thwarting terrorism is a compelling interest, so the issue turns on whether the proposed photo ban is narrowly tailored to protect this interest.
Although I oppose the photo ban, I would note that the MTA has banned photography in the past, and while they willingly lifted the ban, it was never found unconstitutional. Photos are also banned in other places where security is a concern (e.g., at borders and customs checkpoints), and such bans have never been overturned. I'm not sure whether they've ever been challenged.
Courts would look with approval on the fact that photos are allowed so long as you obtain a permit. As a point of comparison, there's a Constitutional right of free assembly, but all cities require permits for assemblies/parades above a certain size. The need to obtain a permit in this situation has been upheld by the Supreme Court.
Bush is not a conservative. He's a religious extremist. I'm a Conservative and I've been pretty irritated by what Busche has done recently -- I don't recall many specifics; however, I am MORE APPALLED by what Busche has NOT done recently: Busche has NOT focused on traditional conservative values: Family, Education, Fiscal Conservatism, Economic Isolationism, Environmental Stewardship... etc, etc.
This is really not a board for Conservative bashing, or Liberal bashing. Or W Bashing for that matter. I think this is all I have to say on this topic.
Not only are you wrong, you're arguing in an improper forum.
AEM7
Rockefeller was a Good man, even if he did die doing a Bill Clinton.
Your pal,
Tuco
At least as an UNENROLLED, they BOTH have to GUESS and kiss tuchus in HOPE that I *might* pull their lever. Best part is that despite the "election folks" knowing which levers get pulled based on a "clunk" or a "click" they KNOW that I pull BOTH party's levers and thus I'm one of those miracle "undecideds" that EARNS a visit to the house, hat in hand, begging, pleading. When you're REGISTERED, they only shake you down for money and you NEVER get a kiss when you're about to get ... ummm ... Heh.
Then why did the liberal supreme court justices rule that free speech does not include political speech?
I wouldn't agree with that last statement entirely, but a good point.
I absolutely *love* that all of us fighting against this paranoia bullcrap come from all different political persuastions - liberal far left, (economically) conservative right, anarchists, libertarians, centrists - it's only the authoritarian assholes (the most vocal of whom seem to be Republicans, but probably only because that's the party in charge right now, and there are many fraidy-cat Dems out there, make no mistake about it) who've had a massive hard-on for this kind of Gestapo stuff, who are running this.
But even those in elected office who don't feel too strongly about this stuff are afraid to vote against it, lest they be branded "soft" on terrorism or be somehow blamed for the next attack (and oh yeah, sooner or later there *will* be some kind of attack, you can bet your life on that...) - it's really getting to the point that the judicial branch is the only part of government where the individual gets a fair shake; I suspect a lot of this is because it's an election year and judges (federal, certainly) by and large are appointed, not elected, so they don't have to participate in the politicized "bigger d*ck" contest.
Personal Freedoms:
It is rather facist isn't it? My only comfort is, and I'm not totally well versed in this one, but I vaguely think that during WWI or Wilson's era, we had a real problem with this kinda of stuff and lack of freedoms. And of course during Lincolns term there were plenty of problems(the cause of the war in the first place). He would jail you if you lived in Maryland and so happen to even wear Red socks for fear you were a rebel sympathizer.
So hopefully history will keep cycling and this all is temporary. But then again, how many real enacted laws get repealed?
Something which strikes me as odd about the current terrorism paranoia is its timing. More than two and a half years have passed since 9/11, with ZERO further attacks, yet the government (both federal and local) seems to get more and more frightened as time goes on. I mean, the MTA's proposed photo ban would have made slightly more sense (but still would've been a bad idea) if it had been brought up in the first few weeks after 9/11. Why is it only now that the proposal's been made?
GOP Convention this summer, IMO. On a related note, one financial analysis I heard a few weeks back is that the city will be lucky to break even while hosting this blessed event. Feh. Hold the damn thing in Texas where it belongs.
W has no cojones; only when it's completely set up and 'safe' does he play hero. If he were in possession of a 'big set' he would have landed on the carrier on Sept 11 or 12, 2001. My dos pesos.
Your pal,
Fred
Thus, that's the best bargain on earth.
However, there's hope. The driver I know is a union higher-up, so she will bring the subject, and explain the process at the next union meeting in a couple of weeks.
The artist was nice and not annoyed, though I'm pretty sure he's been bothered by railfans in the past. The building looks a magnificent as when first built, although a dozen years ago, foliage was obscuring the track level. Must be more obscured now.
The ground level entrance corridor was bricked over and has a single entrance door. So the entrance corridor should be one big foyer !
Are you aware of two books on the NYW&B Rwy ?
Westchester's Forgotten Railway by Roger Arcara is the official Bible of the NYW&B. Westchester County's Million-Dollar-A-Mile Railroad by Robert Bang is a thinner book, but has some rare photos to pique your interest.
Both books are out of print to my knowledge.
Bill "Newkirk"
does anybody know whether there have been plans in the past to construct a new bridge or tunnel, comp. to the Brooklyn/Manhattan Bridge or Queens Midtown tunnel between Manhattan and Queens/Brooklyn?
Taking a look at the map hanging from my wall, it strikes me that there are no bridge/tunnel structures at all between the Midtown tunnel and the Williamsburg bridge, except for two rail tunnels. Now, the reason may seem obvious: only Downtown and Midtown Manhattan are important enough to get direct links with the eastern boroughs, but then, after all, isn't this a question of 'what caused what' (chicken or egg)?
Any information whatsoever is greatly appreciated.
You are right that the existing bridges were built where they seemed necessary at the time, which isn't necessarily where they're needed now. If we were starting again, the existing bridges & tunnels should perhaps be elsewhere, but that's academic.
63rd lower will open to LIRR though, if you want to count that...
I'll start with image 30887, which is identified as being on the Brooklyn Bridge, but is actually on the Williamsburg Bridge.
-- Ed Sachs
1. Is this image under the Broadway El? It sure looks like the Broadway El (thumbnails clickable).
2. I think this is at Marcy Ave station, as that railing above looks like the WillyB railings:
3. This one may sound crazy considering the destination signs on the trolley, but I think this one looks like Seneca Ave station on the M line. If it's not, the similarity is uncanny! Anyone know?
2. I agree with you, it's the Williamsburdg Bridge Plaza
3. The Dekalb Ave on the sign was the main route for today's B38 bus, which one of the 2 Ridgewood branches also runs along Seneca Ave to Seneca and Myrtle Aves. Therefore it is Seneca Ave station.
The end of Sofie's Choice didn't compensate for the fact that the Brooklyn Bridge had a different structure in 1982 from the one in 1947.
Not sure about the second one. My father regularly rode the Ralph / Rockaway Avenue trolley from Bushwick to Brownsville as a boy to shop with his mother for a new Easter suit every year at trhe garment district centered at Rockaway and Pitkin Avenues. Not sure if that line ever went to the Willy B. plaza. I will ask my dad, or you can check it in "The BQ Transit" by Smith and Kramer, if you have it.
The third one is most definitely the Seneca Avenue el station on the M line. The trolley shown was the predecessor of the B-38 bus which runs between Ridgewood and downtown Bklyn. "Park Row" must mean that the trolley continued over the Brooklyn Bridge into lower Manhattan.
2. This is Flatbush Avenue and Hanson Pl. LIRR term. is on right, as is Williamsburg Savings Bank Building. The Fox Theater can be seen on the left looking towards the Manhattan Bridge
3. Ocean Avenue between the Belt Pkwy and Emmons Ave
4. 37th. St. at 13th Ave. (see http://www.culvershuttle.com/other/pages/068.htm)
B35 bus at 1st Ave and 39th st/Bush Terminal end Note the famous highway in the background.
Corrrection on this caption, it's Church Ave and Flatbush Ave
Prospect Park SW and Bartel Prichard Square on the B68
Culver line in background looks like 13th Ave and 38th st to me.
I will have more later.
B69 bus on Brooklyn Bridge on ramp. And another photo from different angle here.
Correction on this photo it's Prospect Park West and Prospect Ave. Church ave does not intersect with Prospect Ave and the B75 does not run on Church Ave.
Church and McDonald looking east. Note: the angled street is where Beverley Road starts.
Prospect Park West and 5th st entrance. I never knew that Prospect Park West was at one time, a 2 way street.
B69 turning into Bartel Pritchard Square
Here are some more shots of the B67 at the terminal on 20th st at Greenwood Cemetary:
image 30803
image 30804
And some more Church and McDonald Ave photos that were missed:
image 30806
B68 turning around at PRW on West 5th st and Surf Ave.
Church Ave and either Rugby or Argyle Road. I will take a look on my way home to be sure.
McDonald Ave and 10th Ave/20th St triangle. Greenwood Cemetary is on the right.
B68 on Prospect Park Southwest. Cross street is not known.
Sorry Dave, there is an error on one picture I identified earlier. image 30939 at Park Place has two distinctive items that need this correction. One is the BMT directional sign, the traffic signal blocks the sign but there is a "B" to the left of the sign. That is the Brighton Line as well as the street being two ways. Franklin Ave is one way southbound while the street in the picture is 2-way operation.
It may be 7th Ave, will have to get back on this one.
Your caption on Church Avenue where you said "Argyle or Rugby" is at Buckingham Road. Trust me, I lived there for 20 years.
"It was long ago, and it was far away, and it was so much better than it is today." (At least transit-wise)
This pole also appears in another photo in this thread, at McDonald & Church.
If I'm not mistaken, trolleys disappeared from Brooklyn- and NYC- around 1960, the year after my birth. Does anyone know what the last trolley route was?
The last operating trolley in NYC was the Queensboro bridge line, which lasted a year longer than the Brooklyn trolleys.
-- Ed Sachs
Anyway, the #68 was abandoned earlier than the other two.
B68 bus on Coney Island Ave near Neptune Ave.. Guess what fantastic elevated line is in the background? LOL
Some more Church & McDonald photos:
image 30833
image 30846
image 30856
image 30860
image 30863
This should be Livingston St at Boerum Place and the route is the B67 (Seventh Ave on sign.) not the B57 Flushing Ave route as per caption.
B35 turning at end of Church Ave and Old New Utrecht Road
39th st near New Utrecht Ave. The West End el. is in the background.
Private ROW near Shell Road and Avenue Y or Z. I know the Culver line is very high at this point.
Church and Flatbush Aves. This is a correction, East 19th Steet is 2 blocks the opposite direction from the RKO Kenmore. Another correction on a different photo right here.
Here was a fun one: B67 on Flatbush Ave Ext., under Myrtle Ave El.. Look at the subway entrance to the left. Anyone want to confirm this pic?
Not done yet! Be back later.
It now makes sense, the B67 runs on Jay Street. Jay Street also angles to the right at Fulton Street (before it was renamed and redesigned Fulton Mall), and matches the picture. The correct location is Jay Street at Myrtle Ave.
Harrumph!!!!
That ain't no feaking bus.
It's a PCC car. See, it's on rails and there's trolley wire above, and the pole is in contact with the wire.
subfan
2. These are under the WillyB approaches:
3. To get started on this one, the station is the background is probably an Easterm Division station (due to construction). It's probably the Broadway El. So we just have to see where the "Wilson" line crossed under the Broadway El, and it should give us the location.
4. This one is under the Jamaica El (note two tracks and place for express track that is not there).
Photo # 4 : The trolley also of course reads "Jamaica" and is probably the forerunner of the present-day Q-56 bus. Hence, somewhere on Jamaica Avenue. But where ? The building toward the right looks like a theater.
The Putnam Av trolley ran from Palmetto St (looping Myrtle > Palmetto > St Nicholas), via Cypress Av, Weirfield St, Wyckoff Av, Halsey St, Nostrand Av, Putnam Av, Fulton St, Livingston St, and Court St as far as Tillary St.
3. To get started on this one, the station is the background is probably an Easterm Division station (due to construction). It's probably the Broadway El. So we just have to see where the "Wilson" line crossed under the Broadway El, and it should give us the location.
The Wilson Av trolley ran from Rockaway Pkwy on the Canrsie Line via Rockaway Av, Cooper St, Wilson Av, Morgan Av, Johnson Av, and Broadway to Williamsburg Bridge Plaza. It therefore crossed Broadway just West of Chauncey St station.
Well there we have it! Thanks James. I know my Eastern Division look!
That image is taken on Rockaway Ave or Cooper St (depending on whether it's north or south of Broadway) looking toward the Chauncey Street station on Broadway and the current "open" mezzanine at that station, which exits onto Rockaway Ave (Chauncey's mezzanine is abandoned).
Flatbush Avenue car headed toward downtown, viewing looking south on Flatbush Avenue between Prospect Park and Botanic Garden.
Downtown Brooklyn, near Borough Hall
Probably Bergen Street Depot.
Coney Island & Brooklyn PROW east of Ocean Parkway looking north toward Brighton Beach Avenue
Southbound McDonald Avenue car beside IND ramp near Kensington Junction
McDonald Avenue car heading south toward W5 St. Depot on former PP&CI PROW.
More when I can get to them.
Image 31147 : Wilson Avenue trolley, Rockaway Avenue just southwest of Broadway, Bushwick, Bklyn, el is Bway el, Cooper St. / Rockaway Avenue (northwest) exit of Chauncey Street station.
31079 : Lexington Ave el turnout from Bway Brooklyn ?
31071 : Cooper St. between Bway and Wilson Ave in Bushwick
31067 : Rockaway Ave and Bay Ridge LIRR just north of Avenue D
31101, 31110 : Cooper St. looking south to Bway el, Bushwick, Bklyn.
More TK
39th Street Ferry Loop (though the ferry was history by then)
See above.
PROW to 39th Street Ferry
39th Street Ferry Loop (again)
Church at McDonald, looking east.
McDonald at Church looking north.
Church AVenue cars, but Bristol Street loop was at Hegeman, not Church.
Church Avenue between East 21st & Flatbush Avenue. (same caption for 30845)
Ah, memories ... Coney Island Avenue car cutting through Park Circle.
Williamsburgh Bridge Plaza
But its coming together! When its finally done Dennis, Conrad and myself will be tired, but satisfied at a job well done.
Who wants to help me with sanding/priming?
But then this thread might provide a few new faces, that would be great.
Sunday I hope to operate 451 at The Point (she's been in the shop for new doors on one end & to seal the roof vents)
BTW, I didn't mean anything negitive about the previous restore. It made her available for service, 20 years ???
Nah, no offense taken. I know you high platform guys mean well. :-)
I don't really recognize the SubTalk handle but by process of elimination I assume you're Jan Lorenzen. I would love to continue helping out on 1001 but with my new job with the post office I never get a Saturday off and you guys seem to always be working on Saturday. However since I'm starting to think delivering mail in Great Neck isn't the way I want to spend my retirement from the police department I may possibly resign soon and I'd love to help you guys.
Both images are of trolleys on the Ralph / Rockaway Avenues line, Bushwick and Bed-Stuy, Bklyn.
A few blocks to the southeast, but not visible in either of these images, are the Loew's Gates, Monroe, and RKO Bushwick Theaters.
-Here's one that shouldn't be too hard to figure out. In the distance is a dual contracts el station, meaning it is either the Livonia or Broadway El. The buildings near the el seem to match those in the above photo, so that is the Livonia El in the distance, probably taken the same day as the above photo from a different block.
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?31134
-With the next one, it would be my first instinct to say that this is the McDonald El. Since "Gravesend Ave" was really a railroad ROW, buildings took longer to be erected along it (so the scene is consistent with McDonald Ave. One thing throws a wrench into it though, the el appears to be headed downwards. I can't picture anywhere this would happen, unless this is the IND connection to Church St. Where else does an el decend like that? I don't believe it the Culver el because, there seems to be a gap next to the track, meaning there is no express track.
Maybe the Livonia El? DId the Mc Donald Ave trolley line cross somewhere between Utica and Rutland Rd on the Livonia El?
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?31140
-- Ed Sachs
It's so frustrating when a street sign appears in an image and it's too blurry to read, or even guess at ! That especially bugs me in those Wilson trolley images which appear to be on Cooper Street (narrow yet two-way residential street, with cars half-parked on sidewalks, I suppose to make room for the trolleys) in Bushwick, when I would LOVE to know the cross street !
I think there's another trolley image at Rockaway and Hegeman Avenues, other than the one in your post.
I'm still browsing through the images, and posting whenever one looks familiar.
1. These photos are at the intersection of Hedgeman and Rockaway Ave. The buildings on the right match another photo (#31118), also taken at that intersection:
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?31075
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?31069
2. The next one should be farily easy I guess. One question, is Reid Ave now Malcolm X Blvd? I tried searching for "Reid" on mapquest, and it gives me "malcom X", with no "reid Ave listings. If it is, this photo is at Broadway and "Malcolm X Blvd" (Reid Ave), between Myrtle and Kosciuszko stations.
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?31065
3. This one is on Broadway in Brooklyn, under the Broadway El. Wow, Broadway used to be lined with buildings!
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?31036
4. This one is under the Jamaica El on Jamaica Ave. The front says "Jamaica", and the el is consistent with the J's el: Two trackways with no express trackway.
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?31021
5. This one should be easy. Since the sign says "Park Pl", which cross street did the Bergen line turn off of from Bergen St, and we have the answer.
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?31017
6. This one is on Broadway at Dunham Pl in Brooklyn, almost at the waterfront. The trolley had just left passing under the Marcy AVe where the el leaves Broadway. That's the WB Savings bank in the background. The tall "Gretsch Building" on the left still stands today.
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?30993
img_7744 is at Church Ave & McDonald Ave
img 30875 is at Church Ave and Ocean Ave
img 31228 is on Church Ave and Bedford Ave. Holy Cross Roman Catholic Church is to the right at Veronica Place.
img 31232 is at Williamsburg Bridge Plaza
img 31169 is outside Brooklyn Borough Hall on Joralemon Street
img 31005 on Flatbush Ave/Atlantic Ave. LIRR terminal on background
More later or tomorrow.
img_7744 is at Church Ave & McDonald Ave
img 30875 is at Church Ave and Ocean Ave
img 31228 is on Church Ave and Bedford Ave. Holy Cross Roman Catholic Church is to the right at Veronica Place.
img 31232 is at Williamsburg Bridge Plaza
img 31169 is outside Brooklyn Borough Hall on Joralemon Street
img 31005 on Flatbush Ave/Atlantic Ave. LIRR terminal on background
More later or tomorrow.
img 31012 is Joralemon St, by Adams Street, although the building to the right may suggest the Department of Education HQ at 110 Livingston St.
img 31020 is Ocean Ave and Emmons St. How can any Brooklynite ever miss Lundys? The route is #49, today's B49 route.
Another Williamsburg Bridge Plaza photo for img 31104 here.
img 31105 is Route #60 trolley (today's B60) leaving Williamsburg Bridge Plaza. The location should be Havemeyer Ave and South 4th Street.
I already left a message to Bill Wall's voicemail and he hasn't returned my call yet. He is probably busy prepping for the BU trips with G.O. planning and making sure our babies are ready to go. I'd also like to attend the 24th because Elias is making his trip from North Dakota to attend the Saturday trip (and what if I mailed in for the Sunday tickets?).
--Mark
's article? :-)
--Mark
Bad location for a false report, but I doubt these are too uncommon. Could've even been an abandoned package or bag and concerned paranoid people are being safe.
Mike
mIke
Robert
However the bad news is there is eight more to go & it's actually 16 because they'll be in english & spanish :-(
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid95/pe7c17fd36e841057b2fb880dcfb0ffb2/fa2293ef.jpg.orig.jpg
Pick a rail/subway station (or line).
Start with another station or line (anywhere!)
Using transfers and connections (paid transfers included, no out-of-system tranfers) keep following until you've reach your station (or line).
Not only this game is fun, it also tests your knowledge of tranfers and connections as well as lines!
Example:
Six Degrees of VERNON JACKSON (7)
Reagan Airport, DC(starting point)
Yellow Line to Gallery Place
Red Line to Union Station
Amtrak Regional/Acela Express/Metroliner/Federal to NY Penn
1/2/3/9 to Times Square/42 St
7 to VERNON JACKSON
Mattapan High Speed Trolley to Ashmont
"T" Red Line to South Station
Amtrak (whatever service) to New York Penn Station
(A) (C) (E) to 14 Street - 8 Avenue
(L) to Lorimer Street
(G) to Broadway
-RJM
New London, CT (starting point)
Shore Line East to New Haven
MNRR to GCT
S/7 to TS
1/2/3/9 to 34th St. Penn Station
LIRR to Montauk
CG
B or Q to Atlantic Avenue
2 or 3 to Penn Station
Amtrak to Albany (to eat at Jack's Oyster Bar - good burgers and cotton candy - and they're a high class place!)
Amtrak from Albany to Union Station, Chicago.
Amtrak to LA, Union Station
Metro Red Line to Hollywood.
1. Blue Line to Gov't Center
2. Green Line to Park St
3. Red Line to South Station
4. Amtrak to Penn Station
5. 2 or 3 to Atlantic
6. Q train to West 8th-- and the Cyclone!
yes- I love roller coasters as much anything else on rails!
Gaasperplas (Amsterdam) to Flushing-Main St (NY):
1. Metro line 53 to Diemen Zuid;
2. NS (national railways) train to Hoofddorp, get off at Schiphol Airport;
3. Whatever airliner to JFK (KLM, Northwest, Virgin...);
4. AirTrain to Sutphin Blvd/Archer Av;
5. E to Jackson Hghts/Roosevelt Av;
6. 7 to Flushing Main St.
Time zones/jet lags not included ;-)
-Alargule
In this game, you can begin at any rail station or location on one continent. One main rule is that air travel between continents is not allowed. The goal is to find interseting rail links between points on any ONE continent.
Okay, that's clear enough for me >-(
Gaasperplas (Amsterdam) to Preston Road (London):
1. Metro line 53 to Diemen Zuid;
2. NS railways to Schiphol;
3. change trains: Thalys (high speed ;-) ) to Brussels Midi;
4: change trains: Eurostar to London Waterloo (via Chunnel);
5: Jubilee Line to Baker Street;
6. Metropolitan Line to Preston Road.
See? European travel: simple as that ;-)
1. A to Penn Sta
2. Amtrak to Chicago
3. Amtrak to L.A. Union Sta
4. Red Line to Metro Center
5. Blue Line to Imperial
6. Green Line to Redondo
1b. A train: Inwood/207th St to Broadway Junction
2b. J/Z train: Broadway Junction to Sutphin Blvd/Archer Av
3b. LIRR Far Rockaway: Jamaica Station to Inwood Station
1c. A train: Inwood/207th St to Far Rockaway/Mott Av
2c. Walk a couple of blocks
3c. LIRR Far Rockaway: Far Rockaway to Inwood
NJT Raritan Valley Line to Newark Penn
Amtrak from Newark to Washington DC
Red line from Union Stn to Metro Center
Blue/Orange from Metro Center to McPherson Square
A: 207/Inwood to 145 St
B: 145 St to 125 St
C: 125 St to 59th/Columbus Circle
D: 59th/Columbus Circle to 7th Ave
E: 7th Ave to Forest Hills/71st Av
F: Forest Hills/71st Av to Rosevelt Av/Jackson Hts.
G: Rosevelt Av/Jackson Hts. (late night/weekend) to Broadway
(H): G to Hoyt Schermerhorn, into Court Street (Transit Museum)
J: walk from Broadway (G) to Hewes or Lorimer to Broadway Junction
L: Broadway Junction to Myrtle-Wyckoff Aves
M: Myrtle-Wyckoff Aves to Canal St
N: Canal St to 14th St
Q: 14th St to 34th St/Herald Sq
R: 24th St/Herald Sq to 42nd St/Times Square
S: 42nd St/Times Square to Grand Central/42nd St
V: walk from Grand Central/42nd St (S) to 42nd St/Bryant Pk to 34th St Herald Square
W: 34th St Herald Square to Canal Street
Z: Canal St to Broadway Junction --> back to A
Even though there's 2 walk out transfers, they are very small walks. I am still pretty impressed myself that you don't have to walk all the way to a different borough.
This is how to go from Eltingville back to Eltingville.
-SIR from Eltingville station to St George
-FERRY to Manhattan
-(1) to 14 St
-(L) to Union Sq
-(R) to Bay Ridge/86 st
-S79 to Eltingville (SIR station)
-Chris
Can the lamp covers be cleaned easily? Many of them have become tinted yellow by residue and not only on the R62. Are they regularly scheduled to be cleaned?
Cleaning them will make them......cleaner. The yellowing of the covers is a normal occurrence due to age. There's some reason why the white plastic turns yellow from years of exposure to fluorescent light.
Once in a while, you may come across an R-68 with one cover that's whiter and brighter than the rest. That's a new replacement, possibly because of vandalism. I've seen this myself.
Bill "Newkirk"
The PLASTIC acts as a filter that absorbs a good amount of the UV radiation, thus serving to protect the passengers from the UV emitted by the lamps. One of the characteristics of the plastic however after absorbing UV radiation over time is that it tends to "yellow" and this tends to absorb even MORE UV radiation as the yellowing process continues.
In other words, this is a GOOD thing. :)
And wasn't there some commuter train car that touted its germ killing UV lamps before our knowledge of skin cancer was developed?
And you're probably thinking of the R-11's (reborn as R-34's) with their "precipitrons" ... in fact, UV "sterilization" has recently made a comeback in hospitals, although properly enclosed in an opaque metal cabinet. They may have been used elsewhere as well, but it was the R-11's that had them in the NYC subways.
In the navy we had those germicidal lamps in some of the refrigerated spaces. Some kid down in supply thought that they were the regular UV lights that kiddies used back then with their psychodelic posters and such. Put one in the lamp holder over his bed. BAD IDEA! He was injured but I never found out how badly or what else happened. Of course the government bought those things in big bulk packages, and probably didn't have any consumer warnings on them of any sort. And if you obtained them through regular channels for thier intended purposes, then you knew what they were.
Indeed, we even have two of those lamps buring in our walk-in box here at the Abbey. No really big deal. Nobody *lives* in the walk-in box.
Elias
Of course, to your BOOB buddy there, a "blacklight" is nothing more than an UN-PHOSPHORIZED (or LIGHTLY phosphorized) mercury vapor tube with a plastic filter ON the tube that favors UV-A radiation (but let's MORE than enough UV-B and higher through as well) ... granted, in the late 60's, them "day-glo posters" were cool and all, but I wondered why, when I went out into sunlight, I had "retina burn." Whoops. :)
I imagine his injuries were mostly VISUAL, which is a bad thing. As far as fluourescents and the SUBWAYS go though, those yellowish plastic filters let through MUCH less UV than the "new" ones. There's ALWAYS a price for "tech" ... but I'm thankful that I don't need a CELL PHONE. Heh. The UV out of this CRT monitor is MORE than enough radiation, thank you. (and folks worry about a "dirty bomb" if they're not in the neighborhood and even IF so, can't get out and away from the effects toute suite)
Lemme put it THIS way ... I never REPRODUCED. I suspect somehow that all that RF radiation from them 5 megawatt klystron UHF transmitters, working atop Empire on FM transmitters and other non-ionizing radiation may have had a part of it. But then again, shooting blanks back in the days before AIDS made me rather desireable. :)
Bill "Newkirk"
David
Anyways I can't wait for the day the 3 is all R62 and the 4 is only R142/A - The whole R62A {7} for R142A {4 & 6} swap is just a load of crap spread by rabid Flushing riders that wants 'new trains' desperately may I add
Anyways I predict that only the 4's R142A's [probably 1-2 11-car sets] will be moved out again for testing on the 7 then when all is a success the 7 will be the next in line to get the next new IRT trains
BTW I saw R142A 7702 on the 4 again - was this also another set used on that infamous 11-car R142A set?
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
til next time
The new trucks has a rather large looking shock absorber mounted on the truck frame at a 45 degree angle and attached to the carbody. New M-7's arriving from Bombardier has the new trucks and the present fleet will have the old trucks removed and replaced. Bombardier is picking up the tab for this one. This should solve the "hunting" problem with the old trucks.
If any SubTalkers are chasing the Metro North M-7's, check them to see if their trucks are the new ones. Just look out for that big shock absorber mounted on a 45 degree angle.
Bill "Newkirk"
Of course, expect cracking and fatigue in the bodies / trucks now. All of the laws of physics apply to rail equipment, not just selected ones...
#3 West End Jeff
Now I don't really get a good look at the Coney Island Yard too much, and maybe this is something thats there a lot, but I'm just curious why a Redbird is in there. I know it's definitely not used for regular service and why was it mixed in with trains that are used for regular service?
Can anyone give me any reasons for this?
-Broadway Buffer
Looks like they got Yellowbirds there too.
Maybe they make more Yellowbirds out of them!
We got Yellowbirds out here: they are Meadowlarks.
They got a real nice song,
but nothing like the (N) train going round the corner at Canal Street!
Elias
Koi
Miscellaneous pictures taken at or near CIY
Koi
At least it looked like an apostrophe.
And yea the F shuttle is no more.
Koi
What's going on? They rebuilding it or something?
DON'T rebuild the train (R142/As). DON'T rebuild the yard. Shut down Corona. They don't keep their cars clean.
R142/As rule!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Keep them the heck out of the cleanliness-poor Corona Yard!
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
I ride the (7) every day, and the cars are clean, unless it's the winter and it just snowed.
Besides, Corona had been maintaining the last of the R33/36 cars for a number of years, and they fixed up a lone redbird set for the Final Trip back in November. They care about their cars.
Unlike Westchester Yard....
That's my opinion, because the R142As are my favorite cars, and I'd like 'em to be saved by the Livonia and Jerome YAHDS before Westchester completely trashes them.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
til next time
I'd rather they send the (4)'s R142s to the (7) and <7>, and the (6) and <6> get the R62As, R142As to the (4) because I wanna see my favorite cars on my favorite line, I don't want any of MY cars (R142s, R142As, R143s) trashed by Westchester.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
1) Dirty strip maps (according to G1Ravage)
2) Screwed up announcements in Manhattan beginning at 125 Street (This is a Brooklyn Bridge-bound (6) train. The next stop is 96th Str... (cut off by door announcement) Stand clear of the closing doors p... (cut off; doors close)
3) Several many bad lighting tubes (they're not dead, but they glow pinkish rather than white like they're supposed to)
THAT is why they need to be taken out of Westchester. Also, because Corona is not as good, it's logical to send them to the (4) (Livonia, Concourse, and Jerome yards), where they will be saved.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Those announcements aren't screwed up, they're just being "interrupted" by the C/R because he's either way behind schedule, or impatient. It happens on EVERY line with New-Tech trains, INCLUDING the (4).
til next time
til next time
However, I am accustomed to it, I videotape the runs through the RFW.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
(sorry, forgot to type that part in at the end)
Corona is not the worst yard in the system by any means. At least their cars are kept pretty clean, though not to the same level as Concourse R-68s.
But in regards to your post...wow... O.O
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
R-32.
#3 West End Jeff
R-32.
Because the yard is built on a swamp, later filled in with ashes and debris, the new buildings foundation will be raised above the surface.
The existing building will be demolished after the new one is finished.
The rumors are wrong. Latest drawings have the Tower (Main Line Master and Yard) located in a new (five story, IIRC) building in the area where the temporary car wash is now.
---
Josh, class of '95
That made me wonder, what schools (any level) are represented by large numbers of subtalkers? Are some institutions churning out more railfans than others? I think I've seen a good number of U Penn and Drexel students posting here.
(By the way, I also did graduate work at the University of Southern Mississippi if there are any USM alums here.)
Just curious about a completely irrelevant topic.
Mark
-Larry
Click here
CG
click here
Da Hui
Peace,
ANDEE
Da Hui
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Haha, pwn3d by the shitty D390!
Peace,
ANDEE
The question is will these Metro North West of Hudson cars that are sittting in Harrison be transferred to Metro North East of Hudson service or will they be retired with the arrival of Metro North Comet V cars.
And to add to the problems, there isn't any direct connection between the Port Jervis Line and the NEC at Secaucus, is there? Some back and forth moves seem to be needed.
Anyone need a fireman for the ride? (grin)
Two Comet-IV's are supposed to revert back to MTA ownership and stay west of Hudson.
The 5 blue-striped MTA cars will also go back east too. They and black-striped MTA cars heading back need to be retrofitted with disk brakes to be compatible with the rest of the GCT-based fleet.
The NJT 1600 and 1700 cars don't have traps. They will likely go to tourist RR's of commuter railroads outsside the NE. They could be retrofitted with traps however, but NJT is too lazy to do it. It is not a big deal.
After a brief moment, the 4 train on the express track leaves, and the 4 train on the local track waits for the signal to clear.
I walk towards the front of the train and as I'm passing the conductor's car, the doors start to close. The platform was too crowded for me to make an attempt to get into the car ahead of the conductor, so I reluctantly let the train go.
Then another announcement: "The next uptown 6 local train is approaching Astor Place." Yes, that's right, Astor Place, 5 stations away. Then, yet another interesting announcement: "The 6 train arriving on the uptown express track will be making local stops. 51st Street next."
I look down the express track and see a 4 train pulling in. Then, lo and behold, a 5 train comes in on the local track.
An announcement similar to the one about the previous 4 train on the local track is made. I manage to get on the 5 train and it cuts ahead of the 4 train on the express track and heads up to 59th Street.
What a wacky day on the Lex! What was going on?
The F will run from 179th St to Hoyt-Schermerhorn. The G will run from Court Sq to Stillwell Av.
Get those cameras ready (like I have to say that).
http://www.mta.info/nyct/service/pdf_f/24_fgre3.pdf
Regardless, if an OPTO stop marker is missing, a T/O will stop at the 6 car marker; or, at worst the end of the platform/10 car marker.
But it's a weekend G.O., so there is no < 6 >, < 7 >, 9, B, V, W, Z service, no 5 rush hour extensions in the Bronx and Brooklyn, no Rockaway Park A, no M to Manhattan, and the J terminates at Chambers St. Also the A should run express in Brooklyn because the F will be the local train to Euclid.
Now I can catch my breath.
You always do great, but I didn't mean to nitpick but weekend M trains are shuttles north of Myrtle Ave and the 5 also ends at Bowling Green.
M train: thought you meant the M from Brooklyn; 5 and 6 both end at Bowling Green on the map. "Bowling Red" ???
This does not count a 300 foot section of the L line, which also leaves and re-enters Brooklyn between Wilson and Halsey St stations.
But not via Manhattan, though, like the M. Well, I made a final version, it's in the same album. Admire...;-)
The only other change is that the Court Square - Stillwell leg is being called the G, not the F. I wonder if it will run F equipment, including R-32's.
Well I don't know if they will really terminate F's at Hoyt and have G's run through the station. I also think that the F will probably go to Euclid Av. This is most likely to avoid a shuttle bus on the F.
Da Hui
http://www.mta.info/nyct/service/pdf_f/24_cno.pdf
you're not reading between the lines, so to speak.
note also the cancellation of C trains on the same date, and the A train running local in Manhattan ONLY on the same date, is local service cancelled in Brooklyn that day?
B - where on any publication or notice does it say anything other than A in Brooklyn for this G.O.?
C - I'd rather go with the idea that makes more sense (A in Bklyn) rather than one that is less sensible (F makes C stops).
Please enlighten me.
Why try to relay it at Lafayette when it might as well fill in for the C?
whatever. I'm taking the BMT to work that day.
If a GO contradicts a service advisory, the GO wins.
#3 West End Jeff
N : runs local between astoria and coney island via sea beach and lower manhattan
Q : stays the same
R : stays the same
W: local over west end, express between 36 st brooklyn and 57 st manhattan, local up second avenue to 125st-lex
B : runs brighton express rush hours and middays, runs as brighton local all other times
D: stays the same
M : eliminated from brooklyn
Where do you want to turn the Q? At 57 all tracks are in use with the
other lines.
wayne
I think not, said Descartes, and he was never seen again!
You have to look at both ends of the route, and I think that what they have made is about the best that they could do.
Broadway has 2 Express Services and 2 Local Services
6th Avenue has 2 "Express" and 2 "Local" Service.
(Those are not really express or local but rather a "Bronx & Bridge" Service, and a "Queens & Tunnel" Service."
Please do not even think of switching between the Express and Local Tracks in Manhattan as this delays the service.
So what is left:
The Brighton Lion:
(Q) 24/7 Local CI -> 57th Street via Broadway
(B) 16/6 Express Brighton Beach -> Bronx via 6th Avenue
The West End Lion:
(D) 24/7 Local CI -> The Bronx via 6th Avenue Express
(M) Rush Hours Bay Pky -> Metropolitan Avenue
The Sea Beach Lion:
(N) 24/7 Local CI -> Astoria via Broadway Express (via Bridge)
(W) Put-Ins Kings Hwy -> Astoria via Local
[N] Local at Night
Fourth Avenue Lion:
(RR) 16/7 Local 95th Street -> Queens Blvd via Local
[RR] Shuttle at Night
The Culver Lion:
(F) 24/7 Local CI -> 179th Street via 6th Avenue
(GG) 24/7 Local Church Avenue -> Court Square via Crosstown Local
(E) 16/5 Local Church -> Jamacia Center via 8th Avenue Local
[F] = Exp Jay St -> Church Ave when (E) is running.
(V) to Chambers WTC
: ) Elias
Oyster Bay - (local stops) Mineola - Queens Village - Hollis - Jamaica - Long Island City (via Lower Montauk). I wonder when the last direct train from Hollis to Long Island City was????
It will be interesting to see the Double Deckers making local stops in Queens. With the exception of Jamaica/HPA/LIC, this is extremely rare (I believe one of the AM dual modes makes a local stop at Kew Gardens).
One thing I couldn't figure out about the summer schedules. The LIRR website shows a separate set of timetables for the Ronkonkoma branch for the week of 6/14 - 6/20 (which is the week of the US Open). But I didn't see anything on these schedules that is any different than the ones currently in effect.
CG
I've seen new schedules that are exactly like the previous ones, happens all the time.....go figure.
They have special schedules for the Montauk for that week also, but there the changes are obvious (some busses replace trains between Patchogue and Speonk).
CG
I am not familiar with this part of LA. Is the site simply abandoned and waiting for development or is it used for freight?
Image 31079 is two blocks to the north, shows the square tower at the Lexington El turnout even more clearly, and is right at the Ralph and Lexington Avenues and Bway intersection.
Both images are of trolleys on the Ralph / Rockaway Avenues line, Bushwick and Bed-Stuy, Bklyn.
A few blocks to the southeast, but not visible in either of these images, are the Loew's Gates, Monroe, and RKO Bushwick Theaters.
http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0423/haber.php
I've hit most media outlets with the press release. Sounds like some of them are definitely coming out to play sunday.
The plot thickens.
The R38's are only on the A and C lines are partial and are based from 207th st and Pitkin Yards. There is also a small underground yard, called 174th st in Manhattan, that is just north of the C local relay tracks at 169th Street in Washington Heights.
Information for R32 and R38 subway cars includes the car numbers and what happened to a few of the cars (accident, wreck, renumbered, etc.). For the R32, there are a bunch of mis-matched pairs that are also listed.
The R38's are only on the A and C lines are partial and are based from 207th st and Pitkin Yards. There is also a small underground yard, called 174th st in Manhattan, that is just north of the C local relay tracks at 169th Street in Washington Heights.
Have a nice weekend.
The R32/38/40 and 42 cars come in pairs of two before assemlbing at random into 8 or 10 car sets. In practice a "pair" is 2 cars numbered consecutively (3501-3502, 4456-4457), etc. A "mismatched" pair is a set of 2 cars that are NOT in numerical order (e.g. 3501 would ordinarly be paired with 3500, but instead is mismatched with 3745.). Car mismatches do not affect train performance, they are just an interesting way to spot them during the course of your subway travel.
A 10 car set may look like this:
3500-3501, 3368-3369, 3781-3946, 3524-3525, 3489-3701, 3384-3385
In the above example, the 3781-3946 and the 3489-3701 are the mismatched pairs because they are not numbered next to each other.
til next time
til next time
The front roll signs (route and destination) were removed during GOH and replaced by single-character flip-dot route signs because installation of air conditioning equipment inside the cars made it difficult to place a mechanism for changing the roll signs. The digital signs are controlled from the #1 cab using a dial that includes letters A through Z (capital letters only), digits 0 through 9, and, I believe, a few other characters.
David
til next time
-Broadway Buffer
til next time
David
Yes, I have the same question.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
til next time
Or go to Corona and walk over the footbridge for free. You never know what you'll see there-Redbirds, R21/22 work cars.
BUT THOSE ARE NOT OLD CARS!!!!!!!
Sheesh! I remember riding R9s every day!
Heck the FIRST car I rode on was made of WOOD!
and was running ton the 3rd Avenue el..... IN MANHATTAN!!!
: ) Elias
(You YOUNG Whippersnapper!)
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=716660
http://photographersrights.mtude.com/
til next time
1) Jamaica also feeds the V line.
2) East NY Yard also feeds the M line.
3) Carnarsie yd. is a satalite yard for East NY.
4) B is the responsibility of Coney Island, not Concourse yard.
We seem to be talking about yards in this thread, not shop assignments. Don't some B trains lay up in Concourse Yard?
David
There are some B's at the Concourse Yard. Not just the Coney Island Shops. And I think there are even some D's at the Coney Island Yard. I often see D's going up the ramp that connects the Coney Island Yard to the West End Line at Bay 50 St in the morning.
And I have a question. Even though the W's no longer go anywhere near Coney Island, are they still kept at the Coney Island Yard like Joe c said?
-Broadway Buffer
Yup... What else yard could they get to?
That is why the (RR) trains were moved to Continential Avenue... for access to the Jamaica Yard.
When the Wnet from Astoria to 95th street, there was no convient yard for them at all.
Elias
til next time
239th - 2
240th - 1/9
Corona - 7
E 180th - 2/5
Lenox - 3
Livonia - 2/3/5
Westchester - 6
Corrections would be thanked if you see any and after will someone tell me the shops now not the yards if they know thanks alot.
When you really think about it, a majority of the yards, like Livonia, Westchester, etc.., have small shops for minor maintenance. However, when the big jobs have to be performed, the fleets go to where they have the tooling for that specific car type:
R142/142A go to East 180 St
R44's and R38's go to Pitkin
R46's and Jamaica R32's to Jamaica
R68A, R68, R40S, R42, R40m go to Coney Island
R68 on the D go to Concourse
R62 go to Jerome Park(that might have changed)
R62A go to 240 St(maybe others)(7 line R62A also go to Coney Island)
I might need some corrections on some of these assignments, so I'm basically giving you what I might know. Back in the 70's and 80's, all equipment operated everywhere, so you never knew where that particular car would end up. Nowadays to save a maintenance headache, cars of a particular class are assigned to one shop and yard.
Regards,
Jimmy
til next time
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
til next time
David
2421 92392 3 5207A C 1 91802 5174C1371 936-38D RCanarsieLCity HallR WConcourseB D 4Coney IslandB D F M N Q R S WCorona7East NYJ L M ZFresh PondMJamaicaE F G R VJerome4New Lots2 3 4 5PitkinA C SRock ParkA SWestchester6
I did see an M come out of there, though - but that was before February.
Jamaica - R/F/G/E/V
Canarsie/ENY - J/Z/L/M
Concourse/Jerome - 4/B/D
Coney Island - N/Q/W/S
Fresh Pond - M
Pitkin - A/C
Rockaways - A/C/S
207th -A/C
239th - 2
240th - 1/9
Corona - 7
E 180th - 2/5
Lenox - 3
Livonia - 2/3/4/5
Westchester - 6
Now is there any changes and is there anymore yards that are not on the site like 174th and Molushou. Please keep me up to date please.
-Chris
til next time
Regards,
Jimmy
OMFG I almost pissed my pants when I saw that.... LOL!
Translation please for non-residents. Would a White Castle be related to a "terlit"?
White Castle is a fast food place that's famous for serving tiny little square hamburgers. Most people eat at least six of them at a time. They're the sort of thing that you have to be in the right mood to want - but if you are in that mood, they're irresistible.
But what a way to go.
Mmmkay, remind me to never sleep in the same bunk as you :)
When I first bited into a WC burger, it tasted to weird to me but after revisiting that taste sometime last year, I've grown to love it. White Castle is the original food fast chain of America.
Not that I'm implying any of the bigwigs should cut back on their trips to the Castle.
WC meaning "White Castle" — not "water closet".
There are probably a lot more, those are the only ones I know of.
-Broadway Buffer
Amen to the connection between White Castle and farting. I can believe that! I never ate there because I couldn't stand the smell of that place!
Bob
No, that's Saddam Hussein's gay porn collection...
However, that rule is not often enforced as the police have been known to move along so as to permit the passenger-led beatdown of the perpetrator to continue unabated.
Butt Indigestion Emerging.
That happened at work yesterday. A colleague had egg rolls and beer the night before, and it all fermented until he let one loose. Almost as bad as the one he ripped - during our departmental meeting last fall - after having chocolate milk and a green apple for lunch. We cleared out of that room in about ten seconds flat.
#3 West End Jeff
You'd think photography would be useful in documenting such an atrocity, but the cameras would turn out to be of little use once the lenses melt...
Just pray the shoe holds true and you don't get any sparks off the third rail, or a good fraction of the UWS might disappear :)
#3 West End Jeff
Well then just stand by the A/C intake vent by the #1 and release your brakes ! That way everyone can share in the experience.
Bill "Newkirk"
*FART*
:D
NOT NICE!
Okay ya got me on (A), but (B) the last time I was in his presence -- my nose and my lungs were trying to leave the room without me!
Except that before giving the fair warning, rip a live one in the adjacent car, so they walk right into it. Serves em right for passing between cars...
Kinda like a Dutch Oven, but rail-related...
You can put your feet up too. I dont think they would really care as long as it is not too crowded.
-Chris
Suuuuuuure.... It's always somebody else... :)
Remember, He who smelt it dealt it.
yeah, we'll see how long [i][b]that[/b][/i] lasts.....
:-)
:-)
:-)
This site is, literally, a GAS!!
There was some power outage.
Anymore info?
All I asked was why there was a power outage or something.
And you guys say you dont ignore me. -_-
But it was a simple question.
Hell, even the trolls get more responces.
And that was a lame excuse not to answer, typos are common.
Yes I'm still tired.
I'm sorry you feel ignored. v.v
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/04/nyregion/04subway.html
Bill "Newkirk"
Yes, I've noticed that. I've wondered if the chipping was from too tight bolts or a chemical reaction between the bolts and the signs. Also, the signs have been disappearing.
But yeah....I'd like to see a comeback by RDCs. Ya know, I think Colorado Railcar has a car that looks like an old RDC. Flat front, single level, only difference as far as looks go that I can find is the doors. They are on the lower level(kinda like low floor buses) and in the center of the car, not on the sides.
The one thing that I really love about Colorado's stuff, it's all low level platform boarding(except the AeroDMU I think can do both). I just wish there was space here to build low platforms at the current stations. The Babylon line would be impossible to do that with.
The "Aero DMU" has steps and trapdoors all right.
I really wish they'd just come out with a car that has doors on the vestibule level and the lower level, and a ramp connecting the 2 levels.
Basically, have single leaf doors on the sides of the car for high level platforms, and then on the lower level, have a pair of center doors for the lower level platforms.
So far, the only car I've seen that would be able to have something like this done, is Kawasaki's lower level boarding cars. The vestibule is close enough to the lower level(in height) and has the space for a ramp(this would be for wheelchairs, BTW, to access both levels. Example: person in wheelchairs boards train on lower level at low level platform, the persons destination is a high level platform, this ramp allows them to reach the door for that platform).
And maybe by taking out 4 seats on each end of the car, I think the Bombardier bilevels can do the same thing.
I remember when the Babylon Lion *was* all low level platforms, and at ground level as well.
I loved coming into Merrick Station, standing on the bottom step hanging way out of the car as it came into the station!
The High Level cars are better, load faster, with more interior room, and greater safety.
Are there any low-level, meaning low floor EMU commuter units (not counting street cars). Most cars, thinking of Chicago Land and SP type commuters were high level cars with steps just inside of the doorway, opening onto a low level platform, usually with yet another step down rather than even with the platform.
Elias
No EMUs . . . but that's because there are no electrified territories where such would be used. Unless Caltrain were to electrify, as they have been planning to do long-term.
When you mention "Chicagoland", then remember that Metra Electric system has high platforms.
Plenty of push-pull low-floor commuter cars out there, like the Bombardier bilevels and the Pacific Surfliners. No reason why a design like that could not be built as either an EMU or DMU. Were the LIRR an all-low-platform system, wouldn't cars such as those not only load faster but perhaps even be safer (no chance of falling off a low platform and breaking an appendage the same way as with a 53-inch-tall high platform)?
Small world...
No and No
Cars boarding at low level platforms with low level boarding are much safer, especially for stations on curves, b/c there's no risk of falling through the gap.
As for boarding faster, I don't think faster, but certainly just as fast.
Regular low-level passenger cars have STEPS just inside of the doorways.
It is one step up from the platform to the car, and then several steps up once you are inside of the car.
Newer low-level cars i.e. the GO type cars are a little different, I presume, but they still have stairways in them to get to the upper level, and this is a real bottle neck for getting on and settled or getting off of a train.
AMTK type bi-levels have a step or two up, (usually the conductor must put a portable step on the ground depending on what the station configutation is) There is a bit of a lower level vestibule, but then passengers must go upstairs for the train. There are no elevators: Handicapped persons are transported on this lower level, and the stewards will bring meals to them. GACK! if I ride on a train, I want to walk around: go to the club car, the dining car, the caboose...
Elias
Also, they aren't really a bottle neck. People who don't want to exert the effort to walk up the stairs have the common sense to just sit on the lower level.
As for your desire to move around the train, most people, including me, feel the same. That's why I've been looking at some many current designs and looking for ways to improve them. One is Kawasaki's low level boarding bi-level. There is enough room to replace the stairs with a ramp at a grade safe enough for wheelchair use, and to add doors on the vestibule level. So now, people in wheelchairs can board at low level platforms and detrain at high level platforms with no hassle.
I think the same thing may be possible with the Bombardier bi-levels, but it requires removing seats(4 on each end).
I've also designed a car with single leaf doors on the ends of the cars on the vestibule level, as well as double doors in the center of the lower level, with a ramp connecting the 2 levels. I've got designs with this for both single level and bi-level cars. I'm still trying to figure out how to get more seats in while still making it comfortable(2x2 seating only except for some long bench style seating).
Now why do you think I showed you BBD bilevels and not gallery cars? No steps inside those doorways. And with modernized low platforms, there is no step into the car—it's level with the doorway just as with low-floor LRVs.
Newer low-level cars i.e. the GO type cars are a little different, I presume, but they still have stairways in them to get to the upper level, and this is a real bottle neck for getting on and settled or getting off of a train
And there was and is no such bottleneck on any of the LIRR's bilevels? I would definitely say that it's quicker to get off a BBD bilevel than off a C-3. Stairs are a necessity on a bilevel and they are no impediment to loading/unloading.
AMTK type bi-levels have a step or two up, (usually the conductor must put a portable step on the ground depending on what the station configutation is) There is a bit of a lower level vestibule, but then passengers must go upstairs for the train. There are no elevators
You're talking about Superliners. Surfliners have a different configuration. If you can stick with discussing commuter cars, then we can continue . . . unless you want to suggest having Amfleets on the LIRR?
: )
I can only speak of the cars that I have seen, not those that I have not seen. Please do show me some photos of these other cars.
But, now that you have made the train stop at a level platform, the arguments to getting caught in the gaps or what not, apply wether the platforms are high level or not.
He was discussing ramps inside of a rail car, and that is not realistic from an ADA viewpoint.
Elias
NO! It is A LOT more dangerous!
People respect a 4 1/2 foot chasam.
They do NOT respec a 12 to 18 inch step down to the rails.
They will step down there all of the time to pass by other commuters waiting on the platform.
To little kids it looks like a nice little bench to sit on, and dangle their legs down toward the tracks. THAT WILL NOT look very pretty when the train comes in!
The more distance you put between the geese and the tracks, the safer the geese will be.
Elias
OK . . . why and why?
(For my part, I would prefer the low platforms because after hearing about people "pinned" between train and high platforms, I regard them as safer inherently.)
Just one of the many reasons I prefer lows also.
I think that you are incorect. If you have a platform that meets the carbody without a step, then someone could get pinned in there regardless of how high it is off the ground.
I think a high platform is SAFER, because people have much more respect for the trackway.
On a low platform people will think nothing of stepping down there for whatever purpose, or kids will sit on the edge with their legs over the side. It does not *look* treatening, and the thing can kill you just as easily as a high platform can.
Elias
And about your thing with sitting over the edge, people do that on highs already. The good thing bout lows, if they fall(i admit, this did happen to me once at Greenlawn), it's alot harder to get up onto the platform than if it was a low.
Up to the waist?
"The High Level cars are better, load faster, with more interior room, and greater safety"
That would be a species, sorry. Genus itself would be "Panthera" . . .
"The High Level cars are better, load faster, with more interior room, and greater safety"
I think not, said Descartes (and he was never seen again!)
The Kingly Lion *was * making a reply to some creature who was Not In My Back Yard, cause if he was in my back yard, he would have been Felid Food by now!
Anyway, said creature said:
"The one thing that I really love about Colorado's stuff, it's all low level platform boarding(except the AeroDMU I think can do both). I just wish there was space here to build low platforms at the current stations. The Babylon line would be impossible to do that with."
: ) Elias (and the Broadway Lion!)
Yeah, but I mean now it is impossible to add low level platforms to the high level platform stations.
"The High Level cars are better, load faster, with more interior room, and greater safety."
High level boarding is definately not safer. There's always that stupid gap(I always see little kids gettin there foot stuck, wheelchairs getting front wheels stuck, strollers getting stuck, etc etc), and it's even worse on stations on curves.
As for speed, a car with doors on the lower level for low platforms will board just as fast as a car with doors on the vestibule level for high level platforms....and it is safer too.
More interior room? How so?
Nimby the alternative is to drag wheelchairs up the steps
A]little kids falling down steps
B]dragging Grandma and her walker up or down steps.
C]people with packages falling due to steps and hands full
D]strollers not being able to go up or down steps.
E] no handycap accesebility
>As for speed, a car with doors on the lower level for low platforms >will board just as fast as a car with doors on the vestibule level >for high level platforms....and it is safer too.
low level is most certainly slower loading, see reasons I gave you above.
rail cars can not be made to accomodate all those people on lower fllor and cars so low as not to be able to put the systems under.
in your make belief world they do but in reality its just the oposite of what you believe.
Non of this is a problem on a car with low level boarding, which is what I'm trying to say. I agree, cars with doors on what would really be the vestibule level boarding at low level platforms via stairs is dangerous and a hassle, but if the doors are on the same level as the platform, then it's just as fast and safer. Examples: Tri-rail, Metrolink, and anything else that uses the Bombardier bi-levels.
"low level is most certainly slower loading,"
Like I said, not with doors on the lower level
"rail cars can not be made to accomodate all those people on lower fllor and cars so low as not to be able to put the systems under."
Then how does Bombardier do it?
"in your make belief world they do but in reality its just the oposite of what you believe"
So I take it Tri-rail and Metrolink are just my imagination?
That's not the point. And still, what about the C3's, those could've had doors on the lower level as well.
"would not comply with ADA if both levels were used"
"Just remeber that a person entering on a high level platform would need to get off at same level."
Not so if a ramp were installed. Kawasaki's low level boarding bi-level car has ample room already for a ramp at a safe incline level as well as room to add doors on the vestibule level without taking any seats.
Also, I've designed a bi-level car with double doors in the center of the lower level and single leaf doors on the ends of the car at vestibule level, and a ramp connecting the 2(upper level reached via stairs).
Breda did exactly that with the Type 8's. Yes they suck, but it can be done.
High level platforms are definitely much more efficient, but if for whatever reason high levels are not possible, then with increased vehicle costs you can engineer a heavy rail train with low platforms and ADA compliance. Stupid thing to do, but it can be done.
Such hazzards are present at all modern low-levle platforms, and the older kind have some huge steps to make it to the car.
More interior room? How so?
You do not need a place to put the interior steps.
Elias
Not true. Level boarding on the lower level of cars eliminates the gap and the stairs.
"You do not need a place to put the interior steps"
You don't need them either if the boarding is on the lower level. The only stairs needed would be on bi-levels going from the vestibule to the upper level(lower to vestibule is via ramp for wheelchairs to use also).
You, sir are full of hot beans! Used, Hot Beans!
Wheelsets are 36" in diameter.
There are several inches of clearance above the wheelesets.
There is the thickness of the car frame, and the floor.
You, sir, KNOW how high subway cars are.
That is the clearance needed for the wheelsets.
Wheelsets are set back several feet from the anticlimbers
Wheelsets are at least 10 feet in length.
So let us say that the wheelsets take up 14 feet at either end of the car.
That is 28' that MUST be at high level, and leaves a maximum of 57 feet of useable lowlevel car length.
TO BE ADA COMPLIENT a ram grade needs to be 1 INCH of rise for every 1 FOOT of travel. So this idea of a ramp that you bandy about as being ADA Complient is NOTHING OF THE SORT unless it is 30 feet long, (assuming a rise of 30 inches) They do not put these things in railway cars.
Now this platform you keep talking about.
Low level platforms are no longer these things that are one or more steps down from the car floor. Modern Low Level Platforms, to be fully ADA complient but match up with the doors the same way that high level platforms do. ERGO the gaps and issues that you cite with high level platforms are ALL present with these "Low Level Platforms."
I am sorry (no I'm not really) to quash your illusions related to the low level platforms, but effiency and safety go to the HIGH LEVEL PLATFORMS.
Elias
Modern low level platform boarding techniques allow for level boarding similar to those on a high level platform. And with a few simple tweaks here and there, there can be absolutely no gap(and even with the gap, the fall isn't as dangerous or harmful as those with a high level platform).
Ok, so, you know how most low level boarding cars have sort of a step(very very small, kinda like a lil lip, i think subway cars have them). Well, wit the push of a button, or not even, how about when the doors open at the low level platform station, they tilt down, forming a small ramp about 3 inches long to allow for wheelchairs to enter the car seamlessly, as well as removing the threat of pax tripping on that little step(I'm sure very few do it now, but I'm sure it does happen once in a while).
Now, as for the ramp, if the ADA standard is what you say it is(which I don't believe, cuz I've definately seen ramps steeper than that), then a simple wheelchair lift can work just as well. Wheelchairs are only need I believe 2.5 feet of room. So say a lift about 3ft wide, there, there's still plenty of room.
The high low platform debate is a moot point because there are solutions on each of the networks. The reason MTA converted to all high operation is because many of the MTA's service area is already high platform and it makes sense to do the rest. High platforms are extremely wasteful in terms of space between the two trucks that cannot be utilized. On the other hand space is wasted in a bilevel because there needs to be room for staircases and if tri-level an additional vestibule.
In short: high platforms make sense where most things are already high platform (like Penn Sta.) low platforms are great where most things are low platform and you have the overhead clearance to run bilevels (like LA, Chicago, and TriRail). In New York, high levels are the order of the day because there is insufficient overhead clearance to design a good bilevel car.
Do you realy think that when a railroad buys a car that they just look in a brochure of say Bombardier and buy or do you believe in hundreds and hundreds of design engineers and lawyers.
Unfortunately, despite all this engineering by very competent engineers, the final decision rests with the politicos whose only concerns are in this order: (1) re-electability (2) price tag.
AEM7
I'd really appreciate it if you would take the time and read my full post before going off and babling to me about something I did not say.
That is the requirement that we had to meet for a wheelchair ramp when we remodled our church.
Yes, there are ramps steeper than that. NFPA codes permit much steeper ramps and they will still qualify as an exit. I have also seen ramps much much steeper, which would not qualify under NFPA codes, but were built long before such NFPA codes were created. And others who make ramps flat out do not care about codes. A dentist in Hebron had such a ramp, and it took two people to pull a wheelchair up it, and still you had to be very carefull, for it could not negeotiate the angle change at the bottom. (i.e. it would tip the chair over frontwards, dumping the patient onto the ground.)
The "Wheelchair" ramp from our plarking lot to our building was built in compliance with NFPA, but does not qualify as ADA complient. Yes, I as infirmarian have no trouble taking patients up and down that ramp, but if you sit in a wheelchair and try it by yourself, it is much more difficult, and the elderly on infirm certainly cannot do it. Powered wheelchairs and carts have no trouble whatsoever.
To be ADA complient, a patient in a wheelchair must be able to negeotiate the ramp on his own, even if they are elderly or infirm. If you are going to advertize your equipment as ADA complient, then this is the standard you need to meet.
AMTK trains do not meet this standard, but with crew help, a wheelchair passenger can be accomodated on the train.
Elias
Now, at this point, if the ramp really needs to be a certain grade(I think someone with limited strength can still push their chair a little steeper than 1 inch per foot, but that's kinda moot right now), then I think saving money and installing a 3 foot wide lift would do just fine.
Does ADA allow those in wheelchairs to operate lifts on their own(obviously provided that the lifts are simple to operate).
Yes, that is why they are handicapped accessible. That is, of course if the lift complies with regulations, otherwise an atendant is required.
We have two elevators in our building. One is a regular passenger elevator and anybody can operate it.
The other is sort of a freight/passenger elevator. It had doors that you open outward manually, and a car gate that you must left. It is heavy, and awkawrd. And it is a manual elevator: you must keep your finger on the button to operate it. No it is not handicapped accessible, but of course, that is the way we always took wheelchair people to the cafeteria building.
Because it would cost so much to fix that elevator we built a "slype" connecting our main building to the cafeteria building. It is five feet wide, and about 100 feet long. "Skinniest building I ever built" says the builder. But it was built on the foundations of an existing below grade tunnel, and so the foundations costs were much lowered.
Still it cost us $250,000 because we didn't want to put the money into fixing that elevator. And because we wanted a pleasant passageway that we could all walk through between the church and the refectory. And while some people scoffed at the idea, it has proven to be well worth the price we paid for it, and we are happy with our purchase.
Now to get back on topic: I was wondering how I might build a subway layout in the old subway tunnel.
: ) Elias
Yes, that is why they are handicapped accessible. That is, of course if the lift complies with regulations, otherwise an atendant is required.
We have two elevators in our building. One is a regular passenger elevator and anybody can operate it.
The other is sort of a freight/passenger elevator. It had doors that you open outward manually, and a car gate that you must left. It is heavy, and awkawrd. And it is a manual elevator: you must keep your finger on the button to operate it. No it is not handicapped accessible, but of course, that is the way we always took wheelchair people to the cafeteria building.
Because it would cost so much to fix that elevator we built a "slype" connecting our main building to the cafeteria building. It is five feet wide, and about 100 feet long. "Skinniest building I ever built" says the builder. But it was built on the foundations of an existing below grade tunnel, and so the foundations costs were much lowered.
Still it cost us $250,000 because we didn't want to put the money into fixing that elevator. And because we wanted a pleasant passageway that we could all walk through between the church and the refectory. And while some people scoffed at the idea, it has proven to be well worth the price we paid for it, and we are happy with our purchase.
Now to get back on topic: I was wondering how I might build a subway layout in the old subway tunnel.
: ) Elias
The topic is actually about Budd SPVs.
Regards,
Jimmy
When the RDC's felt like moving, they were sweet. A vertiable *BUS* on rails with the PROPER kind of tires. Heh. On the Croton-Po'town run, it was usually a pair of RDC-1's, sometimes three - dunno how many they ran on Danbury or the Hartford branches ... I had the chance to run the ones on the Hudson line often though thanks to a lazy buddy of mine. (grin) Croton maintained them VERY well, and I suspect that the motors and trannies were never modified. TESTAMENT to good mechanics!
AEM7
Never heard the story of what became of them, and that's just downright sad. And to hear that one of the dispatchers HERE was STUPID enough to put them behind the power instead of mounting a FRED on them, well ... knowing the Selkirk people from that time, I'm just stunned. I know Meatball North had four of them, two on the Hudson line and two others that were pretty much relegated to car shoves at Mott Haven. New Haven had at least three though - wonder what became of those?
Why would a car with a blue card be moved at all. A blue flag means "DO NOT MOVE!"
If there was a problem with the consist, ought not the engineer or the conductor refused to move the consist?
Elias
The concept of RDC's, SPV's and now "Colorado Railcars" seems just so SIMPLE ... but direct drive of a railcar from small diesel motors has never equalled the tractive effort of just generating electrons and letting even a DC traction motor do the work. :(
You'd THINK that direct-drive internal combustion trainsets would be reliable - seems like a no-brainer ... and yet, NONE of them worked as good as ELECTRIC traction. Go figure. :)
There have also been diesel-hydrolic units, and those are still used in Europe AFIK. When I was in the Navy back in the 60's there was a model railroad running on 15" (I think, coulda been 7") gauge tracks.
They hand built a beauty of an EMD unit, and they used diesel-hydrolic for its propultion.
Elias
So what did leaving off the additional motors gain for them?
Keeping the weight below 80,000?
Seems STOOPIT to me, given as balky as those things were, perhaps it would have been good to have the fireman on board to repair balky motors.
Elias
Duh...
: )
Like, where were they going to put the fire anyway?
: ) Elias
Here's another one: http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=23248
I assume these are RDC's?
(Where the hell was I when all this equipment was around? :( )
You know the cars and trucks are moving faster than the BART trains in the median on 1-580?....that's what I see every time I ride in a car with my family.
Arthur
I didn't know LIRR trains had red stripes on the sides...
Little do they know. There are a lot of railfans out there who'll notice in a flash.
Besides... it *is* hard to tell what color the car is on RADIO!
: ) Elias
http://www.njleg.state.nj.us/2004/Bills/A3000/2828_I1.HTM
Do you think that maybe they might have connections to someone who'd benefit from the installation of concrete ties and that this is a backhanded way of procuring some business? Nah, not in NJ, what was I thinking?
Your pal,
Fred
I take it that plastic ties are still an option?
Hardwood ties contribute to the destruction of forest is correct. Composite ties, concrete ties, steel ties, untreated wood ties are all alternatives. In a shortline environment, where the majority of wear comes from weather and not tonnage-related items, composite ties and concrete ties make no sense. Concrete ties can cost some 6-10 times of wood ties, and lasts maybe 1.5x as long if the sole wear and tear comes from the weather. True, you can decrease the crosstie density when moving to concrete, but not enough to offset the added costs.
For the shortline, you're really better off using crappy untreated wood ties that need replacing every 10 years. You don't know from year to year if that line will stay open.
http://www.highbeam.com/library/doc0.asp?docid=1G1:18714232&refid=ink_d3&skeyword=lumber&teaser=...Products+the+operating+arm+of+U.S.+Plastic+Lumber+Corp.+The+Boca+Raton+Fla.based+manufacturer+of+recycled+plastic+lumber+has+been+granted+exclusive+rights+to...David+Farrow+president+U.S+Plastic+Lumber+.+In+addition+to+being+comparably+priced...
http://www.plasticsresource.com/s_plasticsresource/sec.asp?TRACKID=&CID=128&DID=230
http://www.netcomposites.com/news.asp?1195
The bill only prohibits the state from funding the purchase of creosote treated ties.
Nor does it specifically state railroads can't use them. In fact, the word "railroad" is only mentioned once, in reference to railroad crossties, though it does not state the use of such ties.
Further, it applies to any use of creosote treated wood, not simply ties, and not simply for RR applications (of which none are mentioned anyway). Nor does it state RR ties for RR applications, by the letter of the bill, the state cannot fund the use of creosote treated wood, for anything.
Nowhere does the bill prohibit private companies from using such products, nor does it state RRs can't use them. It only prohibits the state from funding the use of creosote treated wood.
It also does not apply to any "Independant state authority", which if we readf the definitions at the beginning:
"Independent State authority" means a body, public and corporate, created by law, which provides that the public body so created has at least the powers to adopt and use a corporate seal, to sue and be sued, to acquire and hold real property for its purposes, and to provide for and secure the payment of its bonds or other obligations;
Well, NJT and the PA would probbably be exempt under the law anyway...
Instead of simply screaming the sky is falling, could we, in the future, look at the actual text of the bill and try to make sense of it?
Besides, i See wood ties that have to be more than 10 years old, some 50 years, and a few spots over 80 years old rotting away.
Plus, i like to keep my agruement going on, how often do you see track's being replaced compared to a road being stripped, milled and repaved?
Mark
At BSM we have built a retaining wall for our carhouse expansion out of re-used concrete ties from Amtrak. They didn't crumble when removed from the NEC, BTW.
Can't use them under the rails, as they are that "funny narrow gauge" the railroads insist on using.
Wooden ties, in shortline installations (less than 2 MGT) and in a reasonable climate (i.e. not extra wet like the Pacific Northwest), last about 30 years before they have to be replaced. More typically, the railroads will replace one tie in 10 every 3 years (or so), and they will replace ties that have rotted away on an inspection basis.
Besides, i See wood ties that have to be more than 10 years old, some 50 years, and a few spots over 80 years old rotting away.
Wood ties are remarkably long lasting as long as weather leaves them alone and track gangs leave them alone. In very dry weather they crack and crumble, and in very wet weather they crumble. Concrete ties have different problems, they hasten rail and truck wear (because they don't give at all), they also wear a lot quicker (vibrating against ballast) and in about 50 years they get to the point where they are not structurally suitable for running trains over anymore. In territory with lots of high speed running or very heavy tonnages, concrete ties don't last that much longer than wooden ties.
What are the failure mechanisms in concrete ties? Is it cracking? Also, are they reinforced with steel rebar?
Spalling, bottom wear, cracking, fastening mechanism becoming worn, and breaking if the subgrade is not good.
I thought that stuff was banned from everywhere long ago...
IIRC, it's REAL nasty when it burns, too..
Da Hui
You people are making a bigger deal out of this then it really is.
John
If this is so, then these operators should close up there operations and abandon their lines or sell off the there plant to an operator that can run the line without any state aid.
John
Mark
There would be no point. Composite shell would make the cost of the tie go up. Most of the cost in a tie is in the processing and not in the raw materials. Composite is cheap, as is wood. Wood-composite hybrid would be expensive, because composite would have to be moulded onto the wood instead of just being moulded or just cutting wood out of a tree.
The shortline solution is always going to be wood. In fact, the ultimate shortline is untreated wood or logs -- or even just build the railroad on top of rock and sand and hold the gauge with gauging rods. The MOW types think I am crazy but I invite you to go look at some of the operations in Peru. True, they don't run 263,000 lbs cars but most shortlines can't take them anyhow.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Some SubTalkers have said that in the 1970s (late '60s?) photography wasn't allowed at all. I believe someone posted a photo of a NYCT(A) publication of the era (a map?) in which the "no photos" policy was stated.
David
That would be begrudgingly acceptable if permits were made readily available. However, the feedback myself and many others here have received is that railfans will simply be told that permits are not being issued at this time - try again later... and later never comes!
Do we really know that? Right now, it indeed appears that anyone who asks for a permit gets a runaround, but then again permits aren't actually required. If the new rule goes into effect, the MTA may be more reasonable about granting permits, for example doing as the MBTA does. We just don't know for sure now.
When I was at 370 Jay last week to pick up a new map, I asked if permits were available yet, but the person behind the counter wasn't even aware of the proposed ban.
MBTA isn't as reasonable anymore.
I'd use Colorado Railcar low floor entry with 3 car sets, and the heavily used lines, use colorado railcar low floor entry double deckers. Platforms would be low........stations....eh, they'd probably be small, but comfy. Snack bar or vending machines, ticket office, benches, bathrooms, etc.
If it were a transit type operation, I'd use either AdTranz M4's similar to that on Philly's MFL (but with plastic seats), or
For a short branch line (sub 20 miles) that was FRA exempt, I'd use lowfloor DMUs. For a sub 1 hour trip time, 4 on the system at any time and 1 in reserve. 1/2 hourly service. For a sub 1/2 hour trip time, 3 units - 2 running, 1 spare.
For the above under FRA rules? Bus.
For a moderate riership like the PW branch - 12 or 25kv 4 car EMUs with max 3.0mph/s acceleration and braking, level boarding (high if FRA, low otherwise), and a 0-60 time of sub 1 minute, 0 - 80 time of 1 minute or less, top speed 80mph. For curves and no FRA, tilting. For curves and FRA, longer trip times. Concrete ties all around,. Somewhere between 2 and 4 trains an hour, more durring rush.
For something like the Babylon line, same as above, 10 min headways off peak day, 30 night.
For intercity on the NEC? 6 car EMUs with a top speed of 125mph (thus tier I) and high acceleration (25mphs, like an Arrow III). 1 - 2 min dwells, max. No tilt. 3 trains an hour each way. If no FRA, add tilt.
For sub 400 mile high speed point to point / few stops, if new non FRA construction, either Talgo or TGV, on 25kv, 2 trains an hour, 200mph operation. If FRA - airport.
For greater than 400 miles and lots of stops? Greyhound. Regardless. It's just not viable to move that few passengers by train.
What parts of Europe have you been to? 10-foot loading gauge is quite common over there.
No. 10 foot loading gauge in Europe is quite common if you restrict the length of the vehicle to 12 meters. If you use the 20 meter vehicles, its more like 9 ft. And the U.S. standard gauge is 10.5 ft not 10 ft.
Most Park Royal-built carriages were 10 feet 6 inches wide and 65 feet long.
The "Finnish Pendolino" S220-class is also 10' 6" in width using 20-meter-long cars.
I prefer a middle seat to standing for 45 minutes any day.
Assume a jam-packed train with ten cars, each of which has 20 rows of seating with middle seats. Eliminate the middle seats, you have 200 uncomfortable people. Restore the middle seats, you have 600 uncomfortable people.
Well, yeah, but that's hardly an issue that a railroad could address.
Da Hui
If rapid transit, I would have some sort of mix between Cleveland and CTA (disclamer: unfortunately I have not ridden the NYC subway yet, so this is subject to change). It is really cool to change from 3rd rail to catenary at speed (in CTA's case 55 mph), so I would have to throw that in somewhere. GCRTA's heavy rail line runs on overhead, so having a mix would fit well.
Regardless, the MP36s are awesome and I would have to have at least one commuter line with them pulling (or pushing) bi-levels.
Matt
-A heavy rail transit system using NJT Comet/Arrow MU's.
One that definately WOULD NOT work, but would be really awesome:
-A heavy rail system (all elevated/ground level/open cut--no underground) using NJT diesel locomotives and transit cars (any type). THAT would be cool!
C: fulton/8th ave to concourse
F: Culver Xpress/smith st express/6 ave local/63st/qb xpress ends@queensbridge late nights
D: Brighton xpress/6ave xpress concourse xpress-local
G: Crosstown local to 71 ave all times and to 179 latenights
E: WTC 8ave local qb express to jamacia ctr
M: Brighton express/nassau-bway express
Q: brighton local/bway express via 63rd st /179st express
brighton express /bway express and 2nd ave express
W* bay barkway/4 ave local/ bway express via 63 rd st to 125/lex
Or coney island (split platform termination) "sea beach local rush" 4 AVE EXPRESS to chambers street
N Coney island-seabeach express "one way rush"/4 ave express/bway express astoria local (solo astoria service)
The HECK with that! Turn it back to the 60's .. Before this Christie nonsense!
(Q) Brighton Express
(T) West End Express
(N) Sea Beach Express
(RR) Fourth Avenue Local
(TT) West En/Nassau Loop
(D) Culver Line
(F) 34th Street !!!
: ) Elias
D/M/Q via Brighton, now thats something great, W/B via west end! awesome!!
D to Brighton Beach!!
D to Coney Island via West End forever!!
B:10 Slants/10 160's/ 8 68a's"must be clean"
C: 8 R143's/ 8 R32's/
D: 8 R68's/ 10 160's
W: 8 R143's/ 8 r32's
Q: 10 R160's/ 10 R32's / 8 68a's
M: 8 r143's /8 r42's/8 slants
N: 10 R40M's/ 8 r46'/ 10 R160's
And what about the graffiti and breakdowns?
AeroDMU-single level low floor-single level low floor-low floor bilevel-bilevel DMU
Aero DMU-single level low floor-signle level low floor-bombardier bilevel-bombardier bilevel(isn't this what they ran for the tri-rail show, or was it only one single level low floor?)
#3 West End Jeff
R32 GE#'s 3934,3935
R16#6305
R11#8013
R30#'s 8289,8290
R10#3184
R16#6339
R42#'s 4910,4911
til next time
til next time
Regards,
Jimmy
Metro North:
M2
M6
M6
M6
NYCT:
R10
R16
R27
R30
R32
R32GE
R38
R40S
R40S
-Chris
I don't know if the 2nd Avenue local or express ran via Astoria/Flushing, but I do know each branch had all three services (42nd, 2nd, BMT).
As for the expansion of WP prior/after the worlds fair, that I dont know.
There was not express service before the World's Fair.
This is why I always got to look at my old maps. ~_~
I have a booklet called "Subway to the World's Fair" by Frederick Kramer. While it concentrates on the IND World's Fair line, it has a lot of information about the rebuilding of the Willets Point station. Prior to 1939, it looked remarkably like any other Flushing local station, with only about a third of the platform covered by a canopy.
Which World's Fair? '39 or '64 ???
: )- Elias
For the full report see ic Birmingham.
It sounds like both proposals, the tram exension and the underground plan have merit. It's a shame two transit projects have ot compete with each other for funding and the attention of politicians. We have a similar situation here in Philadelphia where teh Roosevelt Subway plans and commuter rail to Reading have to compete with each other for money and attention.
Mark
-Robert King
Mark
Mark
The trouble with being a xenophobic provincial island is that it is very easy to slap oneself on the back and say how wonderful everything is and how much better than the rest of the world the British way is. It would be nice if it were possible to take the politicians and force them to make some trips by public transport in various cities around the world and this country. Eventually they would be forced to admit just how rubbish this country is.
Max is engaging in the favourite British sport of running ourselves down. Birmingham is never going to be the magic place that Paris is, whatever transport system it has. But New Yorkers more than anyone should know how difficult, and expensive, it is to build new heavy-rail underground systems nowadays. The money is not available to build one for Birmingham; other systems have to be looked at. And French cities including Grenoble, Clermond Ferrand and Rennes are putting in light rail systems - and so is Paris, in the suburbs.
For me, the best kind of rail rapid transit system is one that gets built. The worst kind is one that doesn't.
Cologne is a good case in point. They have an extensive system of underground trams which seem to run reliably and frequently, and are well-used by locals. The built-up area is appriximately 1,000,000 people. No British city can compare with this provision (although one day Manchester might manage it, and Newcastle has aspirations in the right direction). An underground extension southwards from the City Centre is currently under construction. The heavy-light rail distinction is irrelevant here. As long as the vehicle is fast, durable, and comfortable it will serve its purpose, and an underground railway will not differ too much in construction costs whatever is adopted.
"The 800-pound gorilla is the regional growth,' said Planning Manager John Poindexter. "You can swat the mosquitoes around the gorilla by reducing local growth.'
The study concludes that the overwhelming majority of intersections in Pasadena will remain relatively uncongested through 2015. A few intersections, mostly along major thoroughfares, are expected to go from bad to worse.
The environmental review suggests that traffic problems would be substantially eased by the completion of the Gold Line to Claremont and the completion of the 710 Freeway between Pasadena and Alhambra.
The latter analysis drew fire from David Romney, president of the West Pasadena Residents Association, at Thursday night's Transportation Advisory Commission meeting.
NYMBY !!
"I see no reason to make this a political football,' Romney said, referring to the 710 completion project, which a great many West Pasadenans oppose. "The 710, for the foreseeable future, is not an assumption.'
NYMBYS !! ...................NYMBYS !!
Before adopting a new planning framework for the city's downtown, called the Central District Specific Plan, the city was required by state law to draft an environmental impact report. The EIR also covers changes to citywide planning rules for traffic and land use.
The City Council hopes to adopt those new plans Aug. 23, following review by a series of commissions and a mandated 45-day comment period from the public.
"This thing is moving very quickly,' said Denver Miller, a senior planner, at Thursday night's meeting.
Some on the Transportation Advisory Commission and some members of the public said the schedule was unreasonably hurried.
"It takes six weeks to read it,' Romney said, of the 500-page report. "It takes another six weeks to come up with a comment on it . .. In my view, it is an overly ambitious schedule.'
The environmental document was released about 2 p.m. Thursday, and most had not had time to review it before Thursday night's meeting.
Council watcher Robert Wittry said he had scanned it, and found it to be "the typical EIR.'
"It doesn't address the issues... Almost everything is 'no significant impact,' except for parks, and it's all false,' he said. "The land use has to be tailored to match what the streets can handle.'
The transportation commission is scheduled to take another look at the document June 30. The Design Commission will review it June 14, and the Planning Commission will address it June 23.
The city is planning a two-day public workshop on the new plan July 9 and 10.
Interested residents can contact Planner Laura Dahl at 744-6767 for more details
tell her the paific electric and LARy shoul have been left alone !
2 Dyre-180
3 148-New Lots
4 Woodlawn-149/GC
5 241-Flatbush
I would like to know, if someone knows, how many people transfer between
the 4 and the 2 (both directions).
In this plan there would be no night service between 135/Lenox and
149/GC, so the WPC, Dyre and Woodlawn passengers have to use the Lex.
This can be a big disadvantage for the passengers, if there is a high
transfer count.
Weekday:
2 Dyre-Flatbush
3 148-New Lots
4 Woodlawn-Utica
5 241-Bowling Green-(rush hour)-Flatbush
PS: I apologize if "count" is the right word, cos i don't know an other
one.
He think i'm nuts, cos nobody before came up with this idea?!
True, there are a few other disconnects at night. Queens Boulevard is cut off from the Broadway line, for example -- but there, it's generally a fairly short walk from the IND, and transfer opportunities abound. Your proposal would force many to make large loops via Midtown for what would otherwise be short trips.
I know this problem. I should better ask for the counts in the late
night 2 between 135/Lenox and 149/GC.
1-No changes
2-3 Ave/GC to Flatbush Ave, relay on M track at Jackson Avenue AND Dyre Ave to E 180
3-No service
4-No changes
5-241 to Bowling Green, local stops in Manhattan and Bronx
6-PBP to 125th
To be honest, I don't think this is any better than what they are doign now
And you don't have anything going to New Lots.
So run the 2 as a through service to Dyre at all times, the 5 becomes the WPR train. WPR south of E180 has way too much late night service from this (I am guessing) and the Pelham riders get a shuttle again. Do you think it is really worth it?
But then you're giving two direct services from WPR/Jerome to the East Side and none to the West Side.
There's no need for through 5 service at night. Here's what I'd suggest:
1: no changes.
2: no changes.
3: no changes.
4: no changes.
5: no changes, or perhaps extended to 149-GC for direct access to the 4.
6: no changes, or perhaps extended to Bowling Green for better ferry access.
There's a reason the current late night IRT service pattern is in effect: it makes sense!
So to keep things simple:
2 Dyre-New Lots
3 148-(except Late night & early sunday)-Flatbush
4 Woodlawn-Bowling Green-(rush hour & Late Night & early sunday)-Flatbush
5 241-E180-(except Late Night)-Utica
Taken on a Red Line train in the direction of Glenmont
Taken on a Red Line train in the direction of Shady Grove
Recall that Rohr 1028 is WMATA's feeler car, used to check system clearances. This car was involved in the Federal Triangle derailment, where its mate was destroyed. You can almost make out the roll-signs in these pictures.
These photos will be included in the next update to The Schumin Web Transit Center, but I thought that these were interesting enough to show you now, since it's not your typical Rohr car.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Looks like they are readying the car to make clearance check on the G Route Blue line extension.
John
John
P. S.
When I went to the rodeo in May the feeler car was not in Greenbelt Yard (E99)
Regards,
Jimmy
Regards,
Jimmy
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Yes, but for whom? Two people? Three people?
Please stop beating the horse. It died in the 1950s.
David
#3 West End Jeff
Put it this way: I used to have a fit when a cold weather plan was in effect and the Broadway express tracks were used to layup trains. It meant all Broadway trains had to make local stops, including the N.
R-32.
R-32.
That's practically true, but technically not. The resulting speed is very slanted ( no pun intended!! ), given the rather steep gradient diving head-long into the trench under the East River. Of course they reach 60 then, but so do the 62's in the Joralemon St. tube. Rather, ride them on level ground, like the Brighton, like I said in an earlier post concerning the 68's (those WILL reach 60). That said, I do agree, generally, that those are fast cars. They always have been. The "40's" family ( r-40/40M/42's ) are all pretty quick, and speed limiting seems to have missed them. The r-40's on the Q today probably reach 60 between Newkirk and Kings Highway on the embankment.
Uh, no. First off, they're on the B, not the Q (well, maybe once in a LONG while on the Q). Second, get a look at a speedometer some time. 44 is about the best a train will do over there, and that's after a long struggle, as the train's about to enter the Kings Highway station. The train won't be doing better than 26-28 as the first car reaches the top of the hill at Avenue H.
David
Thirdly, I currently do not reside in New York. I cannot keep up, or even be concerned with every incidental car assingment. Dude, that's been going on since the beginning of time - on both divisions. Also, based on what you said, (for the sake of the Brighton) things for the r-40's [basically] haven't changed - except for the sign.
R-32.
I've always seen the R32s do better.
LONG LIVE THE METRIC SYSTEM!
Those r-68 'hippos' are not to be taken lightly; They may teeter-totter down the track, but they have alot of speed potential under that floor. Being 75-footers, they could boogie along, and you not even feel it, because of their inherent stability.
R-32.
Better stopping times probabaly require new equipment designs which arent planned for purchase and CBTC won't be on every line until maybe every one of today's cars is retired so its better to focus on what can move things faster now.
How are operators trained? There are at least two schools. One school comes into a station at speed until some point which depends on the station, curvature, and grade and applies brakes firmly gradually loosening up while avoiding a hard stop. The other school applies the brakes in spasms when entering a station or even before it or applies gentle braking throughout but with a hiccup at the end. These two operating styles can add to or subtract from running time and comfort. When one operator from the second school is leading an operator from the first bunching happens especially on the local portion of a run.
Terminal design should encourage speed and improve capacity. The next effort on the SAS should try do this because the last few haven't like Flushing and Jamaica Center. The new South Ferry will probably be added. Speed doesn't do a lot of good with conga lines into terminals. The 7 express is probably today's fastest express run but only until terminal delays hit going into Main St. The MTA thats less determined to getting everyone off at the last stop could short-turn trains at useful spots and improve service at others like the 1, V, R, G.
Theres more than one way to a speedier commute.
London had to have Moorgate and Kings Cross in order toappreciate these refinements.
Instead of the signal/timer regualations, would radar speed enforcement (used by state police troopers on highways) work well in the subways?
Don't you think you're going a bit far? I'd like a fast system too, but I'd also like to get home ALIVE should a T/O make a mistake.
One key thing to note is how Govenor Pataki chooses the majority of the people who sit at the MTA Board. Oh yes, we can't also forget the bickering involving the SAS and the South Ferry reconstruction with our very own Sheldon Silver.
Jim Fish
Albuquerque, NM
R-32.
1995...A "J" train smashes into the rear of a stopped "M" train on the Williamsburgh Bridge. The motorman on the "J" train - Layton Gibson - is killed in the crash, and 54 other people are hurt. A report rules out mechanical failure, but indicates Layton failed to see the train in front of him.
I thought they said the motorman was drunk, ran the read, and hit a stopped train head on(meaning the stopped train was traveling in the opposite direction).
Robert Ray in the Union Square Wreck had been intoxicated. There was never any indication that Layton Gibson in the Williamsburg Bridge Wreck was drunk; there surely would have been alcohol testing at the autopsy and in any event it happened quite early in the morning. He had been working long hours and most likely fell asleep. Actually, lack of sleep may have compounded the effects of alcohol on Robert Ray.
God bless his soul.
-Chris
That 12th pic, is that an eastbound Port Washington train where the PW line branches from the main.
Sure looks like it.
-Chris
Flatbush-Hempstead trains are almost always M7, PW line has lots of em, and I think the Long Beach line does too.
They try to keep them off the ronkonkoma cuz they have fewer seats.
HAHAHA!!! I wish!!
I actually rarely see M-7s on the Port Washington Branch, but they do run a number of sets there. I believe the train that leaves Flushing Main Street for Penn Station at 6:58 PM weekday nights is an M-7.
http://www.spiveyscreations.com
Ryan
We have detected a hotlinking error. Hotlinking is when you link to images or NON html files on 0catch.com from another host. Hotlinking is not allowed for our FREE Accounts. Hotlinking is allowed for our paid accounts. Your account can be upgraded in the user section when you have logged in.
That bastid.
HOW DID HE GET FOR FREE WHAT WE PAY $50 PROCESSING 4.
My set is in the 1948 factory new paint scheme. The details are excellent; However, MTH modeled the cars as they were retrofitted in the early 1960's with upper sealed beam headlights and the front radio antenna/ bracket --- that is correct for the early 1980 era all-white paint scheme models; ALSO in error is the QUEENS PLAZA instead of TIMES SQUARE western route designation...had MTH consulted me before production, as they usually do, this sinage error would not have happened. As it was, I and Frank Gatazka got MTH to get the roof paint color corrected at the last minute ! Here are some photos:
Three generation of IRT Flushing & Astoria line line cars; at left, 1915-20 era Low-V standard body Steinways; center are 1938 built "1939 Worlds Fair Class" Low-V Steinways: at right are the new for 1948 NYCTA IRT R-12 cars---all seen on my O Scale NYC scale El layout
Above and below are overhead views of the (LEFT) 1938 and (RIGHT) 1948 class cars on m "EL" Layout.
Hope you modelers enjoy the photos
Regards - Joe
Joseph Frank, Webmaster
NY City Transit Modelers Group
Regards,
Jimmy
I was wondering if you would know if MTH has any future plans to release any model trains R36 and after - 40s,44-46s,62s,68s,142, 143..
The R62 at the NYCMTA site is HOT!!!
thanks!
your stuff looks awesome!
e-mail: Kswift51@yahoo.com
61 st- woodsie, changer here for "ind" E/ F / GG trains"
74 st-jackson hts " change here for Long island railroad"
wrong again!
the cars are so nice though
the white r-12' # 1 trains are due out next wednesday,,,
D to Brighton Beach!!
LET'S HOPE they get the destinations right and not put 'Marble Hill' as a Terminal.
Well, when the next eastbound arrived on the correct track I wondered what was up. I talked with a supervisor sitting up front as he joked with the opreator and I discovered that after a Camden Crime game when they shoot off about 30$ worth of fireworks PATSO suspends operations on the south track on the BFB. Yup, those cheese fireworks that go about 50 feet in the air, 1/4 mile from the bridge have scared PATCO shitless. The eastbound before mine had to reverse in the 8th and Market pocket track, wait for a westbound, pull back into the station and then reverse again over the bridge. They even had to send out a supervisor to supervise.
My train had to operate restricted speed from the crest of the bridge to the portal and then report back track conditions. The supervisor guy wanted the operator to report that "The bridge was engulfed in flames, but I'm going through!!" the Operator just said that the bridge was in "stellar" condition.
What makes this more lame is that on the 1st and the 4th when the city shoots off millions of dollars of fireworks, PATCH parks 2 8 car trains with employees and their families on the bridge to watch the fireworks up close and personal.
Nice - no more service at Kingston & Nostrand
This of course is even worse than the current arrangement at Rogers Junction, as now 100% of 2, 3, and 4 trains will all share the same stretch of track across the junction in both directions. At least now all that conflicts is the 2, 3, and half the 5. That's an additional 8 TPH(correct me if I'm wrong?).
Also service to 145 St and 148 St-Lenox Terminal would be discontinued.
...Just another reason I don't bother attending this event.
wayne
wayne
CG
CG
The arrival is the time the train from Belmont gets to Jamaica, the departure is the time the train westbound leaves from Jamaica. Not that hard to figure out.
actually, I saw a couple of trains go to Penn and woodside from belmont. they used track 1.
Trains departing Jamaica that don't go to NYP, they probably go to anywhere else on the system except east of Rononkoma.
The train leaves Belmont at 4:13 and arrives in Jamaica (it's last stop) at 4:25. The schedule then says that it leaves Jamaica at 4:27 -- Broadway Junction is asking "Going where?" -- since it the schedule doesn't show it going anyplace else.
I think the 4:27 departure time is actually for the connecting train to Penn, but you wouldn't know that without actually checking the schedules.
I'm pretty sure that the answer to the question "where does the actual train go?" is -- Back to Belmont Park. That is, the 4:13 Belmont to Jamaica turns around at Jamaica and deadheads back to Belmont in order to become the 6:09 (or earlier/later depending on when the last race ends) Belmont to Penn.
Similarly, Belmont bound the 11:49 Penn to Belmont gets to Belmont at 12:23, then deadheads back to Jamaica in time to become the 1:24 Jamaica to Belmont.
CG
That's the departure time of the connecting train.
The train that ends in Jamaica, who knows where it goes. The yard, Belmont, new route, etc
"The people's flag is deepest red,
It shrouded oft our martyred dead;
And ere their limbs grew stiff and cold
Their life-blood dyed its every fold.
Then raise the scarlet standard high;
Beneath its folds we'll live and die,
Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer,
We'll keep the red flag flying here.
Look 'round, the Frenchman loves its blaze,
The sturdy German chants its praise;
In Moscow's vaults its hymns are sung,
Chicago swells its surging song.
Then raise the scarlet standard high;
Beneath its folds we'll live and die,
Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer,
We'll keep the red flag flying here.
It waved above our infant might
When all ahead seemed dark as night;
It witnessed many a deed and vow,
We will not change its color now.
Then raise the scarlet standard high;
Beneath its folds we'll live and die,
Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer,
We'll keep the red flag flying here.
It suits today the meek and base,
Whose minds are fixed on pelf and place;
To cringe beneath the rich man's frown,
And haul that sacred emblem down.
Then raise the scarlet standard high;
Beneath its folds we'll live and die,
Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer,
We'll keep the red flag flying here.
With heads uncovered, swear we all,
To bear it onward till we fall;
Come dungeons dark, or gallows grim,
This song shall be our parting hymn!
Then raise the scarlet standard high;
Beneath its folds we'll live and die,
Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer,
We'll keep the red flag flying here."
Long live British Rail! Long live British Rail! Long live British Rail!
Brings back memories of college in the 1970s with graduate students from the Socialist Workers’ Party (which was a laugh–I never saw any of them working!) mothing expressions like “Dictatorship of the Proletariat”…
I welcome the return of a (de facto) British Rail, but there are other aspects of the past that I’m very happy to leave behind thank you!
If you were commenting on Labour disasters like the Greenbelt, Comprehensive Education, or Trade Union Legislation, I would agree, but when it comes to Transport and the NHS, they got it right.
Brings back memories of college in the 1970s with graduate students from the Socialist Workers’ Party (which was a laugh–I never saw any of them working!) mothing expressions like “Dictatorship of the Proletariat”…
Aka why any party with principles of social justice looks ridiculous. I don't know who are worse: the People's Party of Judaea or the Judaean People's Party.
I welcome the return of a (de facto) British Rail, but there are other aspects of the past that I’m very happy to leave behind thank you!
Let's now make it more than just de facto! Sack Branson!
That was the major problem. However, the idea of the BTC was a good idea although it was never exploited to its full possibilities.
Read all about it in the Independent.
Network Rail is set to emerge this week as the winner in the most fundamental shake-up of the rail industry since privatisation. Alistair Darling, the secretary of state for transport, will announce that he intends to abolish the Strategic Rail Authority (SRA), with its powers and functions either returning to the Department for Transport (DfT) or being handed to Network Rail."
See the Daily Telegraph and the Daily Telegraph.
"Rail system shake-up expected
Thu 15 July, 2004 04:23
LONDON (Reuters) - The government is expected to announce a shake-up of the national rail system today, including plans for tighter government controls of the fragmented industry.
The Times reported the government had abandoned its target for expanding the railways in favour of a focus on reliability and punctuality.
A pledge to increase rail travel by 50 percent by 2010 had been withdrawn after ministers realised they had no hope of achieving the target, the newspaper said.
Transport Secretary Alistair Darling had chosen instead to focus on reliability and punctuality, "something that's more realistic and focused on what passengers really care about...," the Times quoted a Department for Transport spokesman as saying.
In a White Paper to be published on Thursday, Darling was also expected to announce the abolition of the Strategic Rail Authority in favour of a new rail agency.
The Department for Transport was not immediately available for comment on the Times report.
The Strategic Rail Authority was created by the government three years ago to provide leadership for the privatised industry, which has been marred in the past five years by a series of fatal crashes and cost-overruns.
The government has said it wanted to tighten its grip on the way the industry was run and regulated, but has ruled out re-nationalisation.
The railways were privatised in the hope private capital and management would transform it. Instead the government has faced demands for more subsidies.
Darling was also likely to announce that responsibility for rail safety will move from the Health and Safety Executive (HSE) to the Office of Rail Regulation."
By SAUNDRA AMRHEIN, Times Staff Writer
Published May 27, 2004
TAMPA - With two hours and 10 minutes to game time, Connie Cosme took a break from the levers.
A few regulars had already jumped off her streetcar Tuesday at the St. Pete Times Forum. But she expected the worst ahead.
Win or lose, the throngs emerging from the Tampa Bay Lightning game hours later were bound to swarm the 18-month-old streetcar service.
"On Saturday, we had a nice, happy load," she said about the night the Lightning won the Eastern Conference.
"I let two guys come up and toot the whistle," she said, sitting down on one of the honey-brown wooden seats. "They all went nuts. Everyone went crazy."
Hundreds of people have been taking advantage of the streetcars run by HARTline to find cheaper parking in Ybor City and escape the snarl of traffic around the St. Pete Times Forum.
The streetcars offered an extra hour of service after Tuesday's game and will do so again tonight. On Tuesday, ridership jumped to 910, up 300 from an average Tuesday, officials said.
Cosme, sporting a black top hat, black vest and short sleeves, stepped outside to switch the direction of the electric cable above the train, yellow and bright as a sunburst. The seats inside its air-conditioned bubble swiveled to face east instead of west.
First stop, the Marriott. Some people wanted to move away from the action.
"We thought the only people that would be here would be disaster managers," said Bob Swan of Orlando, who was in town to attend the Governor's Hurricane Conference at the Tampa Convention Center on behalf of an engineering firm.
Swan and colleague Teresa Carter of Raleigh, N.C., hitched a ride on the streetcar to catch dinner in Ybor City and return to the Marriott before the game let out.
Cosme turned the car around in Ybor City and picked up more Lightning fans.
"I didn't want to have to deal with the parking," said Donna Ippolito, who lives at Camden Apartments in Ybor City. "The last time I valet parked, they wrecked my car."
Cosme dropped them off and picked up some rowdy hurricane conference attendees heading back toward Ybor, one of whom insisted repeatedly on blowing the train's whistle.
Cosme and her colleagues have seen it all: bachelorette parties, Gasparilla partiers, drunks lying across the tracks. The streetcars have even been chartered by wedding parties.
The mood after a hockey game can vary. Several hours later, Cosme started taking trickles of fans away from the St. Pete Times Forum back to their cars. It was only the third period, but Tampa Bay was already losing badly.
"Be advised, the game is letting out now," the streetcar dispatch radio squawked.
As Cosme rounded the bend at the Florida Aquarium, the crowds appeared.
"They are not going to be happy," Cosme said. Cars pulled on the tracks and sat still. Cosme honked the whistle until they moved.
Near the Times Forum, Cosme stopped as her whole car filled up with subdued fans. Many were happy to attend a Stanley Cup game, though disappointed at the outcome. Still, they liked the streetcar.
"It's really relaxing, and you don't have to fight the mess that you get out there," said Scott Maxwell of Plant City, riding with his three friends.
Mike and Michelle Concannon of Dover sat quietly up front. While not giving up hope on the Lightning, they were happy to put the night behind them.
And Cosme was happy to oblige.
The streetcar, like the hockey games, would keep on rolling.
(Established in 1985 under Connecticut Public Act 85-239, now Sections 13b-212b and -212c
of the Connecticut General Statutes)
MINUTES OF APRIL 28, 2004 MEETING
AT GOVERNMENT CENTER
STAMFORD, CONNECTICUT
The meeting began at 6:00 p.m.
Present were: Chairman Rodney Chabot, Vice Chairman Jim Cameron, Ed Zimmerman, Bob Jelley, and Jeff Marin, Members of the Council; Peter Cannito, President of Metro North Railroad; Gene Colonese, Sherry Herrington, Joe Kanell and George Okvat, Metro North Railroad; Harry Harris, Mike Donnarumma, and James Fox, DOT; Sean McLaughlin, MTA Police; Dick Carpenter, former head of SWERPA, Dick Bond and Scott Crosby, members of the public.
In addition to those listed above, there were people who arrived in the course of the meeting who were planning to attend the public hearing on a fare increase, which immediately followed the Rail Commuter Council meeting at 7:00 p.m.
Because of time constraints, the April meeting of the Rail Commuter Council consisted only of the talk by Peter Cannito, President of Metro North Railroad, and the question and answer period that followed. All regular business was postponed until the May meeting.
President Cannito began by saying that Metro North had continued to provide good service during 2003, but that it had been a difficult year. He said that the region’s economy had not bounced back, so that there was no ridership increase to provide additional revenue. Ridership in 2003 was down 0.8% from the record level of ridership in 2002. However, that was a better record than the region’s other commuter railroads, SEPTA, Long Island Railroad and New Jersey Transit, all of which had a 3% ridership decline in 2003. Metro North’s ridership was helped by an increase in reverse commuting during 2003.
President Cannito stated that both the fall leaf season in 2003 and the 2003-4 winter season had been particularly bad, in terms of weather conditions, but that the railroad had nevertheless maintained a 96.7% on-time record for the entire system. He reminded people that winter snowstorms had begun in December, 2003 and said that the 2003-4 winter had been the worst winter on record for this region because it was both colder and snowier than most winters. He said that the combination of 30-year old cars and the type of winter had produced the problems on the New Haven line that everyone remembers. He went on to say that the entire region had been affected by the weather and that Metro North had outperformed the other three commuter railroads.
President Cannito went on to talk about the equipment problems in Connecticut. He said that there were not enough cars on the New Haven line, even if they were all in service, and that they were 30 years old. He reported that the M-2 rebuild program now has “finished” 46 cars, 20% of the M-2 fleet. He said this was making a difference. The two long-lead items, new cab signal systems and new toilets, will arrive in August, and the “finished” cars will be recycled to have that work done. He went on to say that the decision to do the rebuild program in-house had turned out to be a correct decision, both getting the work started sooner and leading to an earlier completion.
He said that he was working with Connecticut DOT to get 38 additional cars for the New Haven line. The addition of new cars on the West-of-Hudson lines will free up some old cars for the East-of-Hudson lines, including the New Haven line, but having additional cars will require additional dual-mode locomotives, which are only manufactured by General Electric. (Later questioning seemed to indicate that the 38 additional cars being talked about are non-self- propelled cars, which require a locomotive.)
President Cannito said that there was a critical need for a long-term fleet replacement program for both New York and Connecticut. He said that the MTA’s capital program for New York for 2005-2009 will include a request for funds for a substantial number of new cars. The first priority will be adding cars to the present inventory of cars and the second priority will be replacement of the M-2s. He said that Connecticut will have to do the same thing.
President Cannito said that the other crucial need was the expansion of Connecticut shop space for maintenance. He said that the takeover of the Shore Line East facility in New Haven was a step in the right direction, and he hoped that Metro North would be operating that facility by the end of the summer.
President Cannito concluded by saying that even though Metro North had made major improvements in service since taking over the New Haven line in 1983, there were fewer older commuters who rode the line both in 1983 and 2004, so that most commuters don’t have the perspective to see the improvements that have been made. He said that was probably a good thing, because it keeps Metro North Railroad on its toes. He said that the relationship with CDOT is excellent.
Rodney Chabot, Chairman of the Rail Council, asked what the prospect was for expecting all full-length trains. President Cannito said that on the day of the meeting, there were 65 cars out of service. He went on to say that even if Metro North gets down to only 15% of cars out of service, there were still not enough cars to meet demand.
Jim Cameron, Vice Chairman, said that he thought Metro North had done an excellent job during the past winter, given the problems. He asked if there was any reason to be hopeful about better service during the next two winters. President Cannito answered that if the next two winters were the same as the last two, there were likely to be the same kind of problems. He said that the railroad was looking at the systems most susceptible to winter problems to see if there was some way to insulate them from failure. He went on to say that during this past winter, the railroad had canceled trains rather than running trains that were likely to break down.
Bob Jelley, Secretary of the Council, asked about the progress of Long Island Railroad access to Grand Central Terminal, and particularly the problem of Lexington Avenue subway crowding with more railroad passengers. President Cannito said that the Second Avenue subway project, which is going ahead, will eventually relieve the Lexington Avenue line. He also said that a lot of the people who will use the Long Island Railroad to enter Grand Central Terminal are people who will work in that immediate area, so they won’t need to take the subway.
Jeff Marin spoke about the Metro North e-mail program to report service delays and wondered whether the system couldn’t be more specific. President Cannito said that service changes, because of weather or accidents, happen quickly and change quickly, and it is difficult to be more specific than the notifications presently are. But he said that efforts will be made to refine the system. He went on to say that if problems arise during the night, it is easier to notify people by e-mail about morning commuting problems, although, because people are in a hurry in the morning, they frequently don’t take the time to check their e-mail. Problems that arise during the day are more difficult, because the railroad is committed to getting people out of New York and back home, and changes are made more quickly.
Harry Harris made two points:
1. In May, a private firm, Transcon, will be launching a website service (www.trips123.com) which will be like AAA trip planning, except it is for public transit. There will also be a pay service feature which will notify people of certain problems.
2. There is a new bill in the legislature requiring study of e-mail notification of highway and transit problems.
Peter Cannito said that the information on trips 1, 2, 3 will only be as good as the railroad can produce and the customer should do what they can to find out about the situation.
Ed Zimmerman asked if the New York money for new cars was already in place. President Cannito said that it was not. He implied that there was a reasonable expectation that New York would come up with the necessary money. He said that new car procurement usually required a 3-year procurement process. He described two options: 1) a brand new car design; and
2) modification of the M-7 program, which can operate only on third rail, by putting on a pantograph.
Dick Bond, former first selectman of New Canaan asked how many new cars were expected quickly. Harry Harris said that the General Assembly wanted 2000 additional seats. Peter Cannito said that he will try to get 38 cars, even though that provides more than 2000 seats, but that more locomotives will be required. He went on to say that non-self-propelled cars are easy to maintain.
Dick Carpenter asked whether New York will certainly come up with the money for new self-propelled cars. Peter Cannito said that this will be a high priority item for the MTA, and that the MTA has had success with its five year plans in the past. Dick Carpenter went on to ask whether new cars for the New Haven line will also be able to enter Penn Station. Peter Cannito said that they will, and they will be able to operate on 60-cycle, 12,000 volt power; 25-cycle, 12,500 volt power; and 60-cycle, 25,000 volt power.
The meeting ended at 7:00 p.m.
The next meeting will be on May 19th at 7:30 p.m. at SACIA in Stamford (not New Haven, as originally scheduled.) The June meeting will also be at SACIA in Stamford.
Bob Jelley
Secretary
Well, the website is still just an advertisement for its own launch -- no actual information. Seems like an ambitious but valuable service if they can pull it off.
CG
MINUTES OF MAY 19, 2004 MEETING
AT SACIA OFFICES, ONE LANDMARK SQUARE
STAMFORD, CONNECTICUT
The meeting began at 7:30 p.m.
Present were: Chairman Rodney Chabot, Ed Zimmerman, Bob Jelley, Carl Leaman, Peter Marcuse and Joe McGee, Members of the Council; Gene Colonese, Fred Chidester and Jeff Watson, Metro North Railroad; Ray Cox and Mike Donnarumma, Connecticut DOT; Dick Bond, Scott Crosby, and Larry Uydess, members of the public.
The Minutes for the March 24, 2004 and April 28, 2004 were approved.
PROPOSED FARE INCREASE
Ray Cox reported that it was more likely that there would be a fare increase beginning January 1, 2005, rather than July 1, 2004, as originally proposed. He said that in order to accomplish this postponement, the Legislature would have to come up with additional operating and maintenance funds.
STAMFORD STATION
Ray Cox reported that there was nothing new to report. In answer to a question about the former surface parking lot at the entrance to the parking garage, he said that he thought that the surface lot was no longer available to the State. [He subsequently confirmed that that was so.]
SECURITY OF RAILROAD YARDS
There had been a newspaper report that TV reporters had found it easy to enter and wander around in the New Haven railroad yard. Ray Cox, in response to a question, said that DOT needs to find $5 million to have a security check done of the entire New Haven line. He went on to say that it was impossible to consider fencing the entire railroad.
Mike Donnarumma reported that there had been a simulated emergency and actual evacuation of Bridgeport Station the morning of the meeting, and that it went very well. Stamford Station is next on the list.
WATERBURY BRANCH
Rodney Chabot reported that he believed the Legislature had provided funds for returning to midday train service on the Waterbury branch. Ray Cox said that he did not know that that was so. Gene Colonese said that midday train service could be restored quickly. There was further discussion of the need to reprint timetables if train service is restored.
DANBURY BRANCH
Ray Cox reported that the new date for requesting bids for a signal system on the Danbury branch is November 19, 2004.
MAINTENANCE BACKLOG
It was reported that the New Haven line was short 15 cars the morning of the meeting. There is an average of 62 cars in the shop. It is now expected that Metro North will be able to start using the Amtrak repair facility in New Haven at the beginning of August.
TAXI DISPATCHER IN STAMFORD
Ray Cox reported that it had been decided not to use the dispatcher system on weekends. As a result there is no $2.00 surcharge on weekends. He reported that the dispatcher system costs $36,000.00 per week to operate vs. income of $22,000.00 per week.
FLEET REPLACEMENT
Ray Cox reported that a decision about a long-term fleet replacement schedule and preparation of specifications for new cars will probably not be made until January, 2005. These new cars will probably not start arriving until 2012. He also stated that it had not been decided whether to use the existing M-7 platform for new cars or whether to design a new M-8.
Ray Cox went on to say that DOT had managed to negotiate a very favorable purchase of 38 used electric cars from the State of Virginia. (10 of the 38 cars have cabs for a train operator.) The plan is that these cars will be used for Shore Line East, freeing up the present Shore Line East cars for use on the main line. The ability to buy 38 relatively new cars for such a good price leaves the DOT with $40 million that can be used to purchase 10 locomotives for the main and branch lines.
NEW CANAAN BRANCH
It was reported that land had been purchase for an addition to the parking lot of the Talmadge Hill Station. The Rail Council passed a resolution approving this new parking, providing 60-70 more spaces, to be paid for by the Town of New Canaan.
Rodney Chabot reported that he was planning a “Meet the Commuters Day” in June. The Council decided that the next meeting would be held in New Haven on Wednesday, June 16 at 7:00 p.m.
The meeting was adjourned at 9:00 p.m.
Bob Jelley
Secretary
Come again? State of VA?? Huh?
-Chris
As for the long stretch of local stops, it fits into the IND model of widely spaced express stops outside the CBD (and closely spaced express stops within). We could argue for weeks about whether the IND model makes sense (and I tend to agree with you), but for better or for worse, it was a deliberate design decision. Also, how would an express station be designed on CPW? Add a mezzanine level, so the southbound tracks would be three flights below ground? Or shift the northbound local track west, below private property, so the staircases from the sidewalk would lead directly to the upper level island platform?
Along CPW the stations at 59 St, 72 St, 81 St-Museum, 86 St, 96 St, 103 St, and 110 St. 59 and 110 Sts mark the park boundaries and 59 St is obviously at an important location. I assume that was the case even in the early days of the IND. Every transversal in the park gets a station where it emerges on the park's west side except 66 St. 72 St "crosstown" would be a very winding path but a station is there. And except for 66 St every Broadway station has a mirror CPW station. The former 9 Av El stops were 59, 66, 72, 81, 86, 93, 99, 104, and 110 Sts. Every station below 86 St has an exact match on CPW except 66 St and arguably the entire stretch does if 93 and 99 Sts. are compressed to 96 St. 104 St is one block off and who cares. Did the IND have its reasons? Maybe but I don't see them.
Also 59th Street is just as close to Lincoln Center. LC begins at 62nd Street.
I think about that and you do too but when did the IND care about their stations being too close to the IRT. By that logic there shouldn't be a station at 50 St either, which is on 2 levels.
And if the IND did care about stations too close to the IRT then why build the Concourse line? The stations on the Woodlawn and Concourse lines are closer to each other in most places than between Broadway and CPW and not separated by parkland, in a region with less concentration of riders.
The Concourse line was probably planned to supplant the Jerome line.
I agree, but exit to exit the IND might not and the MTA definitely doesn't. The southernmost exit at Columbus Circle is on 57 St almost 56 St. The northernmost exit at 42 St-Bus Terminal is on 44 St. There is an IND station at 7 Av-53 St with an exit on Broadway/53 St serving the same area.
The planned stations for the SAS would leave a patch of similar size on the east side without access to the line there. Stations are planned for 57 St and 42 St. Tha actual distance will be less than that because of exits but its comparable in an area that is very built up.
The Concourse line was probably planned to supplant the Jerome line.
Couldn't the same be said of the 8 Av line and the West Side IRT?
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/mta/planning/sas/sas_stations.htm
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/mta/planning/sas/pdf/overview8_18_03.pdf
Even in the SDEIS, the so-called "57th St" station was centered farther south than that, to make possible a transfer to the Lex-53rd station. In the FEIS, they decided to rename it, to reflect where it really is going to be.
Most of the SAS transfers to other lines are shown as "under evaluation." This one would be a longish transfer, and relatively expensive to build. It's a nice-to-have, not a must-have. However, note that there are no plans to send a 63rd St service down 2nd Avenue, which wouldn't be possible without expanding the Queens subway network or diverting service from elsewhere.
There won't be a 66th St SAS station, and it really wouldn't make sense, since there's going to be a Q station at 63rd & Lex with an exit at Third Avenue.
An SAS station in that area is vitally important, considering the very large amount of office space within walking distance.
A transfer would help to divert passengers from the existing transfer between the Lexington line and the 53rd Street line.
I doubt there were any plans for the IND to replace the entire West Side IRT. The city was going after the els. The IND planners surely knew that CPW is at the edge of the neighborhood, close enough to supplant the 9th Avenue el but not close enough to push the subway under Broadway out of business. Also, without the subway running at least as far as 96th Street, how would trains get to Lenox Avenue and White Plains Road?
However, I do strongly suspect that the IND planners were hoping to take over the IRT north of 215th Street. Why else would the line run past 168th Street and terminate under Broadway, just south of the point where the IRT swings back to Broadway?
I think so. There also appears to have been an exit at 55 St but that would have been 4 blocks from the platforms so I'm not sure.
That's debatable (as you guys have been doing...), but one point you haven't mentioned is that Madison Square Garden was at 50th and 8th so the IND would have been foolish not to stop there. (Note that there were exits from 50 St station at 51st and 52nd street indicating that -- once upon a time -- people actually used this station).
There was no compelling reason for a stop at 66/CPW.
CG
If they had put an express stop on CPW to begin with, I'm sure they would have used the conventional design of a mezzanine and two island platforms for that station, and two side platforms (with or without mezzanine) for the local stations. CPW is wide enough to accommodate 4 tracks across, plus platforms.
Bob