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Go to bed, David.
Adam
Click here
The responses prove it was here , but the photo has been removed .
til next time
Can anyone tell me what the rosters are like for train drivers in the NYC area? I understand that it might change from week to week but any info on what a typical week is would be greatly appreciated.
many thanks for your help.
1968...The Metropolitan Transportation Authority is created to oversee one of the world's largest commuter rail systems.
1993..."The Boss" is back, as George Steinbrenner returns to head the Yankees after a suspension from baseball.
Expected the 7 GO so no surprise there. We took the F from LES and off we went to Roosevelt.
Saw no crowding at 36th St. but rush situation at 74th/Bway/Roosevelt.
Our stay at the Meadows was quite eventless, transit wise.
(My son was yelling "sheven, sheven, sheven" to all parked trains in Corona)
Took a 7 to Main St. for some shopping. Transit wise, no big deal there either. We went to Flushing Mall.
(That was also my first adventure on Main St. since the early 90s, so yes I was quite impressed)
On the way home, once he had a taste at it, my son insisted on being at the RFW. (It's probably in the genes) Just before we hit 74th, a guy was walking on the tracks and we almost went BIE. (Actually a guy in white T's, out of nowhere. Is it common there?). With loud announcements at 74th/Bway, some people got angry but we just went down the stairs. Since we knew about the F G.O.(via Cranberry), our plan was to not to get on one. We got on an R which announced at Queens Plz. "No A, E, Fs are running". We also saw some D trains on Bway. We got off at 8th St and I later found out on the news how lucky we were!
Now, anyone knows where the F trains that passed our R train went after leaving Roosevelt? I'd assume 57th/7th...
Track vandalism leads to subway evacuations in New York City
NEW YORK - (KRT) - An apparently deranged Bronx man unleashed chaos in a Greenwich Village subway tunnel last night by hurling debris on the tracks - sparking a series of explosions and a blaze that brought trains to a screeching halt, officials said.
More than 1,000 straphangers had to be evacuated from six trains stuck south of the W. Fourth St. station, and at least five passengers were treated for smoke inhalation, fire officials said.
The underground scare, which underscored the city subway system's vulnerability to sabotage, left passengers shaken as they emerged from the smoke-filled tunnel.
I can predict his defense ... he'll claim that he became temporarily unhinged due to the emotional trauma of having to go through life with a ridiculous name :)
I can't even imagine what country that could be.
If that's the case, most anybody's subway system is vulnerable to sabotage if they use a similiar type of third-rail based power system.
Not only third (or fourth) rail. I can think of a few ways to mess up the overhead or track circuits.
(Wait for some fool to start a thread on how to do it )
Fourth Rail is much less susceptible to loss of power caused by debris short-circuiting one rail. The whole voltage is then concentrated in the other one so the potential difference across the train is the same. In this way, London Underground can still operate when some prat wedges a Coke can between the 3rd rail and the running rail.
Anyway, this is doubly ironic, given that I had taken the Q that day from Flatbush to Macy's to get on a train at Penn Station...around 6 pm. (It coulda been one of the orange trains instead- B? D? Nooo, it was the yellow "Q". Nonetheless, I didn't mind hunting Macy's for a bathroom... :))
This isn't good. Is there more of this going around? Or are there just fewer "money or your life" incidents to drown them out in the media?
I would imagine that the numbers of such incidents haven't really increased when you look at a reasonably long time frame. It's just that there's been a flurry of recent incidents.
The CIY shootings aren't really in the same category, as that was a premeditated crime.
Actually it's quite worrying. If he'd used something which would have caused more permanent damage to the infrastructure, eg a bomb, it would only take three of these guys (one at each of W4th, Atlantic IRT, and De Kalb) to make almost the entire system seize up for days.
Hey, Timmy could have taken his truck into the Lincoln Tunnel. That would have destroyed the city for YEARS.
Ain't nuttin' you can do 'bout it needer.
PS. They got the guy who did this.
Robert
Well, the certainly did not get *all* of him, for clearly he was not all there!
OK, so they got him, what are they going to do with him?
Put him in a jail? Keep him in a hospital?
No, soon enough they will toss him back out on the streets.
Elias
Congratulations and good luck!
Just don't pull all-nighters too often cause you WILL pay for it one way or another!
Is suicide and death by crime or accident still a big problem on the NYC system? I'm sure it still happens but apart from the odd one here and there it doesn't seem to get mentioned.
Any numbers available?
Thanks
I am assuming that your question is about persons being struck by trains, known as 12-9s (customers under trains). Aside from 12-9s, you also have those who are struck by trains while on the platform. There are people who stick their head over the platform edge and get hit or those who slip and fall into the side of a train or even get caught between the train and the platform edge (space case).
I'd rather not quote any hard statistics for 12-9s. I can say that this year there have been somewhat less than each of the last two years (for the 2 month period). Statistical glitch or economic upturn or something else? I can say that the average 12-9 will delay service about 70 minutes.
An equally nagging problem is the problem of people who get sick or hurt on the trains and people who unfortunately die on the trains. Whether due to natural causes or crime, these incidents do tend to cause many more protracted delays than 12-9s do.
Mark
http://www.ny1.com/ny/TopStories/SubTopic/index.html?topicintid=1&subtopicintid=1&contentintid=37753
I wonder whether you can use an unlimited Metrocard there now? That would be great. The view of the city from the tram is wonderful, despite the ride being somewhat scary.
There's an article in the Post that mentions that children who used the tram to go to school on Roosevelt Island were able to buy a $5 monthly pass. The article suggests that this will be no longer.
http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/19372.htm
http://offer.ebay.com/ws3/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=2227700148
I don't know how rare this one actually is but it is the small Y cut but on the "Good For" side there are no dots between the Good For / One Fare.
The Atwood-Coffee catalog mentions that there were 4 variations (not counting the solid one). Usually the variations are more subtle.
In checking my collection I found that I actually have all 4 variations (including the "No Dot").
I'll tell ya - with ebay the price of being a collector is going through the roof.
Full play-by-play recap is coming up soon.
For those of you unfamiliar with I-81, it is a north-south Interstate highway running from Knoxville, Tennessee to the Canadian border in New York State, and passes through Tennessee, Virginia, West Virginia, Maryland, Pennsylvania, and New York State.
Virginia is currently in the planning stages for a major rehabilitation project for Interstate 81. Various proposals have been floated by STAR Solutions and Fluor Virginia for widening the roadway (four lanes segregating cars and trucks, three mixed lanes, etc.), plus another curious proposal: Don't do anything to the actual road, and instead install a rail line running the length of I-81 in Virginia (325 miles) to carry trucks through the state.
Presumably, trucks will get on the train at Bristol (at the Tennessee border), be ferried to Winchester (near the border with West Virginia) and released back onto the highway at Winchester, and vice versa.
So what do you all think of this rail idea?
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Mark
I think the rail idea is a bit impractical, though. And I believe the trucking interests would probably fight it tooth and nail as the uploading and downloading time and waits for trains would mostly likely increase their travel times dramatically. Also, what do you do with trucks that have intermediate or terminal destinations within Virginia? The separate truck lanes would seem preferable and more practical.
The one problem I see in all of this is the stupidity of the VA DOT. It took them seven years to rebuild two interchanges and widen I-81 from two to three lanes from exit 74 in TN to exit 7 in VA through Bristol. And they had to rework the roadway between exits 5 and 7 and reconstruct a bridge at exit 5 because the engineering people who designed it screwed up the project big time. If this is any indication, look for such a statewide project to be completed no sooner than 2104 -- if your lucky.
As for me, I'm moving to Philly in three months so I'll be dealing with a whole different set of traffic issues.
*As for me, I'm moving to Philly in three months so I'll be dealing with a whole different set of traffic issues. *
I suggest that you need to re-move again, if you're living in philly you have zero need to be dealing with any traffic issue.
Read what he said (and you quoted). He was stuck behind one created by the truckers... he didn't create it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Mark
You have never traveled on the Pennsylvania Turnpike have you.
John
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
See, there's no excuse for that. I understand the frustration that truckers face from motorists sometimes, but that sort of behavior is unprofessional, immature and potentially dangerous. Besides, why take out the frustration from the actions of one dumbass driver on a bunch of motorists who didn't do anything to them? Personally, I understand that trucks cannot be driven in the same manner as cars and always keep my distance between myself and trucks (and buses, for that matter). I get out of their way and make sure I can safely clear them when passing. And I would not appreciate anybody deliberately driving slow in front of me trying to piss me and other drivers off because that kind of thing will only lead to more road rage and more maniacal driving.
How about capacity? How frequently could you run a train? Would it be able to hold all of the truck traffic? Since you would have to carry all of the truckers, as well, would it fall afoul of rules against passenger and freight rail together?
I've mostly wondered this with regard to commuter rail, whether you could fairly cheeply set up a commuter line on the median and put park and rides at major exits (I bet there is plenty of state owned land inside the clover leafs of most exits for a decent parking lot).
Of course most highways close in to a city have done away with any unpaved land in the median.
I see two things going on. Let's say they don't get paid, and it doesn't count to anything, possibly being a slower travel. It might be a hard sell.
On the other hand, with the national lack of space at rest stops and truck stops this may be good. Park it on the train, go to sleep or whatever. When you're ready you're out of state and you did twice the milage. Not bad.
Their problem is that an enormous volume of truck traffic carrying freight runs on a north south axis (probably a bad choice of words. . . .) between Germany and Italy. This leads to enormous traffic jams on the expressways running through the Alps, as well as unsafe conditions caused by massive trucks navigating twisty mountain expressways. Several years ago, the Swiss decided to implement a policy of moving frieght off of trucks at the northern border, and putting it on trains. At the southern border, the freight is unloaded, and placed back on trucks for delivery into Italy. Although the truck industry grumbled about it at the time, it seems to make sense to me.
The problem, however, is that it is still more expensive to ship stuff through Switzerland by rail, than by truck. Therefore, the Swiss government has imposed heavy, mileage-based taxes on trucks using Switzerland as a transit point, thereby making rail more economically attractive. Unfortunately, I can't imagine our own government doing that here, particularly with Dubya in office.
Here are some links:
The Swiss rail cargo company. If you click around in here, you will find some nice railfan photos of Swiss trains.
A collection of articles about Swiss transport policy, including articles about moving trucks off the road and onto trains.
SDB
I just pulled this bit of news of Destination Freedom and it was so monumentous that it deserves it's own posting. Looks like the Snobway isn't going to be getting it's Upgrade while the Subway continues to go to hell. We can have no fear, the ACMU's will be around for years. You'll never kill the Pullmans.
The Democratic-led New York State Assembly on Friday vetoed plans to buy 120 commuter trains, a victory for New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg who feared it would have drained money from city bus and subway lines.
The Metropolitan Transportation Authority, which runs New York City’s commuter lines, subways and buses, had asked the state’s capital review board to let it buy the rail cars from Canada’s Bombardier Inc. 18 months faster than initially planned, Reuters reported.
A spokeswoman for the Assembly, which has one voting member on the board, declined comment on the details of its opposition. She said only that the nation’s largest mass transit agency had failed to answer its questions.
The MTA, which carries 7 million bus and subway riders every day, also rejected the Assembly’s request to extend the deadline, the spokeswoman added.
MTA Chairman Peter Kalikow said, “It is particularly disturbing that this veto was issued without explanation after extensive briefings and information were provided over the last month.”
Spokesmen for Gov. George Pataki and Senate Majority Leader Joseph Bruno of Rensselaer were not immediately available. Both Republicans also have representatives on the capital review board, which must approve the MTA’s capital spending; technically, the Assembly’s representative rejected the agency’s proposed amendment to its 2000-2004 plan.
The Republican mayor said he was pleased the Assembly, whose speaker represents Lower Manhattan, had “stood up for the people of New York.” Bloomberg added: “Transportation for City residents must be the agency’s first priority.”
The new Bombardier cars were destined for the Metro-North railroad, which serves commuters who live in New York State and Connecticut. To help pay for the cars, the MTA got its board to approve a $208 million bond sale.
#3 West End Jeff
MTA apparently tried to get cars due in 18 months NOW, that's all this is about. If we HAD the money, I'm sure it wouldn't be a problem buying ahead. But since we don't have the money ... well ... November's coming - Westchester can show their appreciation in the voting booth. :)
#3 West End Jeff
LOL!
Yeah, let me predict right now that not a single independent or Democrat will vote for Bush.
Since the outcome of New York erections are already in the bag BEFORE erection day, I've often availed myself of the sliding door of justice just to make a point ...
They provide the paper, YOU provide the pen.
Nothing like voters coming to visit the polls, and the results are "Write Error Unable to write to disk in drive : KERNEL32.DLL has encountered a problem and needs to close. The information you were just working on might be lost."
But then, there's something nice about automating Florida, no? :)
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
I'd like him to explain why. NYCT isn't the only part of the agency and shouldn't be the only one to get new cars.
Hmmm... maybe looking to cut more funds from the city yet keep the same treatment?
Certainly not in New York City.
You also need to define 'mild'. The amount of snow we got this year was high above the average.
BTW, we got more than that this winter season.
1. Your memory is failing, or else you're too young to remember. They really had a disaster in the early 1990s.
2. This was unusual snow. The snow was light and fluffy, and then for 3 weeks it never got above freezing. Even after those 3 weeks had passed, every time a train went by it raised a huge cloud of snow, as if it had just snowed the previous day.
MNRR hardly serves upstate. MNRR mostly serves the suburbs.
I guess Dutchess and Orange could be considered Upstate.
One possible border is the Hudson Highlands running along the Rockland Orange Border and through Putnam. The slopes and state parks limit development.
Others might say that I-84 is the real border, due to second wave commuters. That is Westchester is a suburb of Manhattan, but Dutchess is a suburb or Westchester.
My grandmothers is now in a rehab place in northern Westchester. It's a haul. Couldn't imagine doing it every day.
The additional 120 cars, were to be delivered right on top of the original 180. Now that second order will be delayed 18 months. It is not quite as bad as it sounds for Metro North.
No they won't, the initial order of M-7A's will kill them off.
Bill "Newkirk"
SubTalk field trip(s) time.
Don't wait, till it's too late. get yer shots NOW !
Bill "Newkirk"
Sounds like you would prefer that MP54s would return to the Northeaset Corridor also. Unsafe commuters are not a thing to be happy about.
Stop dancing like a ballerina. If I "had" to drive an ACMU I would be loving every minute of it!
And in terms of driving, try to deal with MTA management at the same time. It's a job, not a fantasy.
Bitter in that I wont see the M7's in that new shiney scheme
Sweet in that my M1's and M3's are here to stay.
Nothing against the M7's though. Nice breed of cars.
Surburban riders have always gotten a disproportionate amount of capital spending from the MTA. Any complaining on their part is inappropriate.
R-142, R-142A, R-143 and soon R-160. Is Bloomberg that myopic ? New York City hasn't been cheated as he says so. These subway cars weren't found underneath the Christmas tree !
Bill "Newkirk"
Why is the "Service Guide" detailing the characteristics of each line located at the BOTTOM of the map? In the extra large versions of the map posted on platforms, you need to practically sit on the floor to read the service guide. On the regular size maps posted on side platform walls, you still need to bend over to read the service guide, unless you are a little person or a child. It seems to me that the only position from which you can see the guide comfortably is when you are seated on a train, and even then, you have to turn all the way around.
I would put the service guides at the top.
I'm sure that's the case; I'd also wager that Mitch is a tall man. I'm tall and since the dawn of ADA, I've stooped to use lower ATM's, elevator buttons, etc. I've gotten used to it and feel the benefit to our handicapped amigos outweighs the little inconvenience involved.
Your pal,
Fred
Anyone know? Some photos would be greatly appreciated too.
Isn't it the side of LIFF ticket offices?
your pal,
Fred
John
One of the safety features that is designed in to every WMATA station is the platform is cantilevered at 2’ 5 5/8" (75.2475 cm). The area under the platform is where one can escape from getting run over by a train. The distance from top of rail to top of platform is 3’ 2 1/2" (97.79 cm) add about 6" to 8" (15.24 cm 20.32 cm) for rail, track fastener and grout pad, its makes it about 3’ 8 1/2" (107.95 cm) to 3’ 10 1/2" (113.03 cm) from concrete track bed to top of platform. Not that difficult of a jump up for anyone that in descent shape.
John
Mark
subfan
The URL address for the rest ot them is as follows:
http://www.transitgallery.com/showalbum.php?aid=201&uuid=44
I forgot how to link a website on this board (can somebody help me out) so just copy the above and paste in the address box and it should get you there.
Enjoy.
In some cases, the new Eastern Division roller curtains were spliced onto the end of an older curtain. I noticed a Houston-Lafayette St. sign in one of 401's boxes, so apparently it does have some, if not all, IND terminals. I have one such curtain that also contains all of the north terminals on the Southern Division. The thing I'm most curious about is whether or not the light fixtures were hooked back up when the sign boxes were reinstalled.
When the R-1/9s were scrapped, the wires into the signboxes were cut flush with the edge of the box. That's how mine looked when I acquired it. I suspect the same was done with 401's original signboxes.
The proper HTML code for this link is:
<a href="http://www.transitgallery.com/showalbum.php?aid=201&uuid=44">Far Rockaway A Train's MOD Trip Pictures</a>
Hope you enjoy the pictures.
Thanks for sharing!!
The URL address for the rest ot them is as follows:
http://www.transitgallery.com/showalbum.php?aid=201&uuid=44
I forgot how to link a website on this board (can somebody help me out) so just copy the above and paste in the address box and it should get you there.
Enjoy.
http://www.transitgallery.com/showalbum.php?aid=201&uuid=44
Car #100 between Avenue H and Newkirk on the Brighton ROW
Car #100 leaving Park Place Station on the Franklin Ave Shuttle ROW
Car #401 tailing just after Ditmas Avenue on the Culver Line Elevated
Car #401 at 62nd Street Station on the West End Line.
Click Here for 2 minute & 41 second Sound Clip of The Motors from #100 & 1575
Surprise Sound Clip
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.info
Trevor
www.transitalk.info
Amazing photographs. Makes me wonder why I'm 'waiting?'
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.info
Better start drawing up that royalty schedule now... :)
Started by taking the normal Q to 57/7, had to endure a crackhead cursing though most of the trip. Ignoring that pettiness, I walked over to 59th/CC to board the MOD train. The train arrives at 10:45 and we loaded and took off. We did the quick relay at 34th St., then went to 21st St./Queensbridge where a big guy was asking though the window on the MOD train. After we left Queensbridge, Ozzy and Trevor were reading a very dirty and funny book as I took the book and nearly made coconuts on it (LOL). Car #1575 had a very nice floor redo; blue with yellow diamonds (shades of the Q Diamond). David of Broadway’s device ran out of batteries so he asks me for an donation (j/t). Car #484 had the guy with the subway videos again. We went over the Bridge and arrived at PP interlocking for what would be the highlight of the trip, 3 round trips on the Franklin Avenue Shuttle. For the next 35 minutes, riders accustomed to the R68 cars are gawking in amazement as they mingled with the TSS and our railfans on the cars’ history. I took the first trip up to Franklin Ave. Since it was a 4 car train, OPTO was suspended on the train as the run went as follows: Towards Franklin, the north 2 cars were platformed, while back to Prospect Park, the south 2 cars were used. At the S/B trips from Franklin Ave, the customers were asked to move to the front 2 so they can exit at the other 3 stations. The first trip up north was rather uneventful as the T/O overshot the first 2 cars at Botanic Garden station and we had to key out to exit the customers and board new passengers at that station. Most of the railfans went to Park Place while I stood at Franklin. Some of us took pictures while 2 officers stationed near the passageway and escalator watched and enjoyed the show. I let the train go back and took the R68 (2920-2924 was the trainset) to Park Place for the second run-by. Most of the day, the photographers were very cooperative, which was a nice departure from last trips. David of Broadway takes his million dollar shot outside fare control, as I was debating to run to the overpass one block south of Park Place but I took no chances and stood by the south end of the side platform. I took the train back up Franklin, thinking this might be it (the schedule called for only two round-trips), but a switch problem at PP interlocking made us do a third revenue service trip. I stayed at PP for more photos as the train goes back and forth one more time. We came back to PP and took the train OOS and not before we left, a man into his walkman at the Manhattan-bound Q side, was doing the “Beat It” dance, it was so funny as I took pictures of this happening. We glided into Church Ave when a man really had a bladder control problem and left the MOD train (my back was turned when this happened) and he should know better (there were restrooms at Prospect Park). Continuing the trip, I took the Q ahead to Kings Highway where Jehuty and Koi-PTIML were chasing me to the front end for the runby. The train should’ve slowed down but was maintaining full speed, but I managed to get a decent shot anyway. The train experiences homeball (red over red signal) at KH as I exchanged harmless barbs at Chris and Trevor. Train takes off, so I went out at KH for lunch and posted a halftime report on the MOD trip.
Second half was mostly yard visits, I took the Q to Bright Beach were the MOD train was waiting there and saw BMTman and heypaul were there to see the train but not chasing it. Took off at around 3:25 and saw the progress at West 8th St., stunned workers were eyeing the train, and Stillwell (AWESOME)! Me and our Webmaster, David Pirmann were exchanging window space for our photos, teamwork is very important. At the spur track under the Belt Parkway, the train stops there for the TSS crew to inspect the car’s trucks. No problems and we took off for Avenue X. and stayed on the express track, wiping out the 22nd Ave-Bay Parkway photo stop. We arrived at 18th Avenue where I was partially to blame for some miscommunication. We though there were be a run-by for Ditmas Ave, but Bill and another TSS said there will be no runby but we ended up waiting at 7th Ave for the next R32 F train anyway. As we sat there, an F train behind us at Kings Highway was stopped for an unattended package left behind. Overhearing the radio, control asked the crew if they inspected the cars at Avenue X relay but someone could’ve got on at Avenue X or U and left the package there at Kings Highway. We had a long dwell time as I nearly fell THROUGH the platform as a large square of concrete at the Manhattan-bound side was rocking me back and forth. This is a dangerous condition. We had a long dwell time and our run to 207th St yard before sunset was in jeopardy, however we took off from 18th Avenue at 4:30 and still have a chance. Total mismanagement as usual (with a big DUH) when the 34th St. platform was supposed to be closed N/B as the A trains were running local, no one was there to direct people to the local platform. After a so-so run up the CPW dash (timers always kill this run), we arrived at 207th St Yard in time. The photos of the graffiti covered redbird and the R62 wreck were some of the best photo opportunities at the yard. We went back towards 125th St. and the end of the trip where Bill Wall was clarifying with 59th St. master Tower on the final instructions on the excursion train and went as follows (while I overheard on the radio, not the exact words they said)
Bill Wall: 59th M/T come into the excursion train
59th M/T: OK excursion train, what’s your lineup, 125th St. or spur track at 135th St.?
BW: 125th St. (as if the train will discharge at the unused track at 135th St.. DUH!)
59th M/T: OK after 125th St., what is your next move?
BW: Back up to 207.
59th M/T: OK
(Does 59th M/T read the G.O. for the excursion train?)
We discharge at 125th St. at 6:15 PM in time for a homeless man to cause havoc at West 4th St. and disrupt the entire 6th and 8th Ave IND train service. Our D train was turned back at 59th St as a big crowd, including many other Subtalkers piled upstairs for the #1 train. We cheered every time an R142 #2 train zooms by on the express track and crowded the # 1 train. In the process, I accidentally stepped on an elderly woman’s feet and she stared to yell at me. I explained to her that there was a problem at 59th St. and all off us was dumped into this train. We got off at Times Square as someone had a lousy shot trying to deposit a glass bottle into a trash canister and ended up broken glass all over the crowded platform (Ozzy didn’t do it!). We walked over the BMT platform at Times Square, in time for an incoming D train rerouted onto the Broadway Line. Me, I just wanted to get home, so I took the next crowded Q train home. Thanks again for some great fun yesterday.
Partial list of Subtalkers: As always, should leave your name out, please let us know you were there and accept my apologies. Next time, look for the man with a notebook and I will ensure that your name is part of what we call family here.
Nycsubway.org Webmaster, David Pirmann
LincolN (HAPPY BIRTHDAY)
Sir. Ronald of McDonald
David of Broadway
R32/38
Operational Engineer II
MDT Route 29
Chris R27/30
John “Sparky” S. (a.k.a. the Greenpoint Gremlin)
Lou from Brooklyn
Lou from Middleton
Bombardier
Koi-Public Transit is My Lifeline
Jeffery Rosen
Silverfox
Incognito
Thru Express
Jehuty
Transit ChurchGreene
ChurchuBob
NJ Coast Express
T-Broadway/West End
Bill Earland
George Boucher
Boriqua
R33 #9279
Kevin Walsh
Far Rockaway A Train
Kingsbridge 4BD
Clayton
David
R32/R1 lover
Faxman
Mr. Foamer
Henry R32 #3730
Flushing-bound Exp.
Amin Perala
Sci-Guy #6586
Just Visiting: heypaul and BMTman.
Q R68 2797
Museum Train
R4 401
R4 484
R7A 1575
R1 100
D R68 2633
1 R62A 2219
Q R68A 5174
But considering otherwise with that terrorist at West 4th st, I still think NYCT did an excellent job of keeping the trains rolling, such as the diversion of the D to the Broadway line, and evacuation of several trains in the process.
But what we saw at 34th st/8th Ave with lots of people, no excuses there as some people should've been at the lower mezzanine directing people to take the side local platforms for the A train. (The S/B E running express on an unannounced G.O. would've not mattered anyway)
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
They cannot have 3 trainsets on the FAS route.
Peace,
-- David
Brooklyn, NY
-- David
Brooklyn, NY
I explained it right here:
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=667983
8 > ) ~ Sparky
Chuck Greene
Ands bring the green book too next time. I was LMAO on some of the jokes.
I was originally positioned up on the Carroll Street pedestrian bridge (four blocks south of Park Pl.), with a fellow railfan from the National Historic Railway Association. We both were able to snap off a couple of good shots before heading over to Park Place.
R-9s and K-cars... you should have borrowed your last car to do a "period" shot.
...National Historic Railway Association
Society, not Association. NHRA is the National Hot Rod Ass'n.
What factors did the BMT use in determining that the Sea Beach and Brighton Express would have the triplexes, and the West End, Culver, 4th Ave, and Brighton local would have the standards? How was the decision made?
I am asking, because the triplexes were very heavy and it would have made more sense to run them through the tunnel. I wonder if their going over the Manhattan Bridge for so many years accelerated the Manny B. problems.
The axle loading on the Triplexes was, on average, only about 6% higher, unloaded, than the Standards. With a passenger load, this would have been less. I know you could have the "camel's straw" effect, but nevertheless, I don't think the car types killed the MB. It was more like the uneven loading and the fact that the bridge was badly maintained for decades.
Be that as it may, they were signed for both bridge and tunnel, and had provisions for loop service as well.
Maybe they thought that the seating arrangement was more suitable to a long-haul than a local.
During the late 50s and early 60s, Triplexes also appeared frequently on the Sea Beach Express (#4), where they appeared to be about half of the runs, the other half being Standards. They also appeared occasionally on the Brigton Local (#1) and West End Express (#3). I don't recall ever seeing one on the Fourth Ave. Local (#2), although I did see an occasional pre-war IND R-type (R 1-9) on that route.
-- Ed Sachs
Switching Tracks
John Melovich and Danny Swails rely on 66 years of combined experience in switching freight cars around CSX's Yeoman rail yard.
They also rely on technology like never before, beginning each workday by strapping electronic devices that look like industrial-duty Nintendo gear to their waists.
Melovich and Swails form a distinctive CSX crew, one of five locally that operate diesel locomotives by remote control without an engineer in the cab.
The veteran employees have become part of a nationwide evolution in the railroad industry that CSX joined two years ago when it launched remote operations in Jacksonville and Tampa.
Like the demise of the caboose two decades ago, the replacement of engineers in certain yard-switching operations has become a milestone in the culture of railroading.
``As far as engines, I think this is the biggest change since the 1940s when we went from steam to diesel,'' said Melovich, a remote-control foreman who, like the old days, calls himself a conductor.
---------
How did they ever make money in the old days when so many people had to work, when nowadays the only way to secure a profit is to have no employees?
http://www.utu.org/worksite/detail_news.cfm?ArticleID=12255
I wonder if New York Waterway will provide ferry service once the six slips are refurbished or will we see the large boats (Staten Island Ferry Size) back again. I think the makeshift platform New York Waterway developed is part of the problem but we really need service from Hoboken to Midtown/Uptown. It would be a shame to spend all this money and not expand the service to uptown. It seems the majority of the routes all go to lower Manhattan where most of the jobs are not situated. I would love to see a Waterway route from Hoboken to the east side.
Nothing about converting the low platforms to high. For that $79 million, they could throw that in if they budget right. No need to keep low platforms once all of the Comet Vs arrive and the Comet Is finally retire. Arrows and Comets could finally use their center doors and wheelchair passengers would have an easier time of getting on and off the trains . . .
Actually, I think renovating and reopening the upper-level ferry waiting room may be in the plans...
See more photos here: http://www.railfanwindow.com/gallery/album35
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=667263
at 8:22 AM
Enjoy!
Great photo!
Submission for March 2004 has begun, so post them photos!
Maybe it triggers the starting lights. I managed to trigger the starting lights at 14/8 last night by saying "ding!"
http://www.amandanoelle.com/images/modtrip_022904
Nice Job!
Chuck Greene
Nice to see another female railfan!
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
No, not RonFormerlyOfBayside.
You're the one who's son fell asleep on the last trip, right?
Which is why I always go on these MOD trips stag. All the waiting, the long lunch breaks, long running times between photo (and bathroom) stops, and frequent changing ends can really test the patience of young'uns- even if they are railfans. For the $40 it costs- let alone $60 for adult and child- I want to make the most of it.
Sadly, I couldn't make either of this past weekend's trips due to prior commitments on both days- and the fact that I was allowed to go on the December 27 one. You know how it is with spouses: give and take. I DID have time to come down to Columbus Circle to see the Saturday trip launch. It was very frustrating to see and hear the train leave without me. Judging from the events that messed up the whole system late Sunday, I'm GLAD I didn't go then.
Me. And I always wear a name-tag with my handle on it. There are not many others besides me.
We are one happy family here, most of us do act like it on the MOD trips but a few Subtalkers just don't want to scan around and meet us in person.
or the classic "I was there... you will meet me next time".
which then becomes "I saw you at the RFW, I was right behind you".
Nametags are a terrible thing to waste.
(Appreciation to those who took EFFORT into making them).
How true, always wear the name tag, but none other then those who I
know from other venues say anything. True, I don't photograph or
video tape and usually seat myself in one car. But I attend most
B division MOD Trips, so will you say howdy next trip? >GG<
8 > ) ~ Sparky
I've gotten the impression that I fit into the latter category, but the truth is, I'm pretty shy and don't talk much to begin with... so I apologize :) Takes me a while to warm up to people, but I eventually do.
til next time
Since two trains in a row did it, I'd suspect some rubbish on the tracks. Maybe a dead rat or something, that tripped the trains.
Elias
I did a double-take. Where is this Robinsdale place? Do I even have the name right? The little sound clip was in the same tone and inflection as all the others, so I'm guessing the recording was made at the same time as all the others. Then why have I never heard this announcement before waiting for a westbound train from the KO branch?
Also, while I was waiting I looked down towards Divide and noticed black rectangular boxes suspended from the ceiling. They looked suspiciously like the LED signs at subway stations like Queensboro Plaza or Woodside, but they had little white rectangles in the middle. I went down to check them out and saw that they were, in fact, the same signs as the ones in the subway, and the little white rectangles were pieces of paper taped to the middle of the signs saying "NOT IN SERVICE". Are they replacing the TV-based system with LED signs? It's a shame, I always wished they would expand the system to other stations. Then again, it was running off an old Dell OptiPlex in the ticket office, and it got rather annoying when the Windows screensaver would pop up every 5 minutes. Guess nobody ever found the Display control panel. :P
But I'm still interested in those LED signs.
LED's are awesome
TURN IN YOUR TOKENS FOR METROCARDS
• Beginning 6:00am Monday, March 1, 2004 you may exchange your
MTA tokens for MetroCards (Example: 2 tokens = 1 (one) $4 MetroCard)
• Exchanges may be made at the Tramway Stations
(Roosevelt Island & Manhattan)
• Offer expires 7:00pm, Mon., March 15th
*Questions: Please call RIOC @ (212) 832-4540
I assume MVM's won't be on their property, but booth personnel will sell Metrocards ?
I read this mornings NY Post article that Metrocard free transfers would be honored. I wonder if Metrocard fare boxes will be next on their bus system.
Bill "Newkirk"
Brooklyn convertible 4573
Third Ave Railway (Manhattan and Bronx)car 629
Johnstown, Pa car 357
Montreal car 2001
As if the rest of us haven't experienced a dewirement or two? As long as you don't make the car go crunch!, other sins during training will be forgiven. Dewirements are rarely the operator's fault anyway, unless you're running too fast through the a switch, in which case you get to answer to the General Manager.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Oh yes, such as "Instructors" bending Trolley Poles in front of the
entire class. >GG<
8 > ) ~ Sparky
Question: How do operators put the connector back to the pole, especially when it is down? Is there some wheely or is it automatic?
That operator job sounds awesome too!
It's work if you have to do it, fun when you don't have to :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Michael
Washington, DC
Regards,
Jimmy
Operator Training 2004
Wanted: Trolley car operators. The Shore Line Trolley Museum needs you to help keep our operating program running smoothly. No prior experience is necessary to become a trolley operator. Our training course will teach you everything you need to know about how a trolley works, how to operate it smoothly and safely, the rules of our railway, and how to interact with visitors. The 2004 course will be held on Mar 6, 13, 20, 27 and Apr 3. Each session starts at 10:30 AM and runs until approximately 4:30 PM. To sign up, send an email to training@bera.org.
Now it's official as per the Dispatcher for the Training Course.
8 > ) ~ Sparky
THE NUMBER OF HEADS CAN BE FOUND ON A PAPER AT THE MUSEUM.
My first pic insertion here, so don't clobber me too badly; that URL is fearsome.
Anyway, what is this thing for?
A. Theft-proof ashtray?
B. MTA Monolith like in the 2001 film?
C. A new line of MTA furniture?
It sits on the sidewalk and measures about 3 feet cubed. I've not seen one anywhere else and don't know what it's function is other than diverting people around it for some reason (again, not apparent). Any ideas? Thanks.
Your pal,
Fred
http://www.imagestation.com/mypictures/inbox/view.html?id=4185366895&url=http%3A//www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid105/p265047e9a955a96f93eafc53670fad2d/f977a16f.jpg&caption=The%20MTA%20Cube&album_id=4287553413&from_album=1
Copy and paste that to the Address bar (or Location bar or whatever).
Anyway, what is this thing for?
A. Theft-proof ashtray?
B. MTA Monolith like in the 2001 film?
C. A new line of MTA furniture?
It sits on the sidewalk and measures about 3 feet cubed. I've not seen one anywhere else and don't know what it's function is other than diverting people around it for some reason (again, not apparent). Any ideas? Thanks.
Your pal,
Fred
Fred, when you post images from ImageStation, you have to cut the .orig.jpg from the link. Thank you.
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
Exactly. It's for the giant rat outside of the station.
http://community.webtv.net/hey-paul/GrandCentralRat
<"http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=4287553413">
Thanks to any and all who offer some coaching on how to post a link here.
Your pal,
Fred
Here is a link to your album.
The easy way to see how this is done is to use the “view source” button in your browser. The piece of code that does the work is this:
<a href=http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=4287553413This is the destination>Text here is what appears as the link</a>.
John
Franklin Shuttle
Brighton Line and Stillwell (includes a shot of the Cyclone.
new roof at Stillwell; Coney Island Yard
Culver Line and 207th Street Yard
Early nominees for photo of the month for March!
It was nice to meet you on the trip as well. :)
Thanks for sharing.
Thanks. It wasn't easy. That was my only shot out of four that worked. I was trying to shoot in a space between girders, counting "1 - 2 - 3 - space - 1 - space - 1 - 2 - 3 - space..." etc.
Brooklyn Bridge from MOD train on Manhattan Bridge
But they ended the segment with the communication system that was used in 1913 to enable trains to communicate with the power station. If a train broke down, the conductor or engineer was supposed to go on the catwalk and pull on a rope which rang a brass bell on the power level. The location of the train would be printed out by a ticker tape machine. I wonder if this was a system similar to what the fire department used in the old days. If you pulled a box, a mechanical device would send out a coded signal which would be punched out on a tape (I think that's how it worked in the fire department).
Anyway, had anyone ever heard of this system at GCT?
To request having power removed from the third rail, one pulled the cord in both directions, to send an alarm from the box at either end of that section of cord.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df03012004.shtml#Philadelphia
Guess if Kawasaki or Bombardier cannot have their way, no one can!
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
1. Where is bombardier mentioned in this article? If you are going to say Kawasaki and Bombardier want everything to themselves, why not include Alstom in that bunch?
2. After making special rules that they would make a selection based on things other than lowest bidder, SEPTA went ahead and chose the lowest bidder, even though they ranked last in the competition. That's unfair to everyone in the competition.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df03012004.shtml#Twotrains
CSX: Man, their way of practicing safety is just amazing! Frankly, I am surprised no one has gotten killed yet in a while in any CSX accident!
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
Oh? AMTK does not despatch that line.
Of CSX is no stranger to these
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df03012004.shtml#CSX
With CSX's rating having been cut to neutral to buy, guess they have to find things to cut, such as safety, their own plans to build a hangar in Jacksonville, corners...
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
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Until the next meltdown that is. We should form a pool. I got 20 bucks that there is some frame cracking problem.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df03012004.shtml#Acelas
It is also one of several other improvements Amtrak needs to make. By itself, each improvement (including this one) is small. Together, though, they are enough to create the 2.5 hour NYP-WAS trip time (including stops)that Amtrak's Acela should have been delivering right from the start.
I agree with that but wha would be a suitable interval in mph? I say increases of 10mph per...lets say ever few months for example. Current top speeds of Amtrak [and US railroads] is inadequate IMO. There's so much Amtrak needs to do [as you said] to even before they could think of doing such a thing.
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Now all Amtrak has to do to get it's bucks it jump through the ring of fire, through the ring of ice and over the dog doo stick.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df03012004.shtml#DOT
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Well, express freight didn't work, mail didn't work so now it's trackwork under contract from shortlines.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df03012004.shtml#California
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Wouldn't it be such a shame if this man, one night while sleeping on the platform, rolled off in front of a moving train?
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df03012004.shtml#Homeless
This fellow is a leech. Represents everything wrong with the courts system. Note to David Gunn: Get this guy put in federal prison.
And known as "Betty the Bottom" :)
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
*******************************************************************
Oh wonderful...from the country that has brought us one rail crisis after another.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df03012004.shtml#Virgin
I can go on and on and on, but people who are SUPPOSED to be thinking of this stuff makes way too much money for me to be giving input. I'm seriously.
Virgin Active - Fitness club in South Africa
Virgin Atlantic - Airline
Virgin Atlantic Cargo - Freight Airline
Virgin Balloon Flights - (UK)
Virgin Bikes - bike shop(?)
Virgin Blue - Airline (Austrailia)
Virgin Books - Bookstore
Virgin Brides - (NOT WHAT YOU'RE THINKING, GUYS!) Bridal shop
Virgin Business Solutions - Communications
Virgin Cars - Car dealership
Virgin Cinemas - Japan
Virgin Cosmetics - UK
Virgin Credit Card - UK
Virgin D3 - UK College Student web site
Virgin Drinks - Soft drinks
Virgin Experience - (Again, NOT WHAT YOU THINK!) Too diverse to describe. Check out the site if you're curious.
Virgin Express - Airline (Europe)
Virgin Holidays - Travel packages (from UK)
Virgin Home - Utilities (UK)
Virgin Incentives - Provides incentive vouchers for small businesses
Virgin Limobike - Commute around London
Virgin Limousines
Virgin Megastores (UK & USA)
Virgin Mobile - Cell Phone provider
Virgin Money - Financial
Virgin Play - Software (Spain)
Virgin Radio - UK Radio station
Virgin Trains - Railroad operator
Virgin Travelstore - Travel agency
Virgin Vacations - Travel Packages (to UK)
Virgin Ware - (Europe) Clothing
Virgin Ware - (UK) Lingerie
Virgin Wines - Winery
And that's only a sampling of the many services provided by Virgin-owned companies. To find out more go to http://www.virgin.com.
The only use I have for their crap service is that they provide a 2345 out of Euston (as opposed to Chiltern's last Birmingham train at 2210 out of Marylebone).
Ouch! That's a huge differential. With airlines, including Virgin Atlantic, most first class seats are occupied by frequent travelers using upgrade awards, rather than by people actually paying the FC fares. Could Virgin Trains be doing something similar?
Nope, they're mostly not occupied. Their idea is that people charging their employers expenses won't care how much it costs. Unfortunately for them, most employers in Birmingham now will not pay for first class travel (precisely because of Virgin being a rip-off).
There is little wonder that these guys with their lack of common sense need a government subsidy of £12.44 per passenger!
I also see a lot of buses, but I think that would be listed under:
Virgin Holidays - Travel packages (from UK)
Which is how most, or almost all of them seem to get to florida.
So there are Catholic girls' schools in the USA too? ;-)
If only others would get in on the act...like Southwest Airlines for example...they should be offering to run the Texas Triangle instead of killing it.
Mark
*******************************************************************
Nope, not E-60 603 and not F40 235...although it is another F40.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df03012004.shtml#Museum
*******************************************************************
Note the picture...note there is no way to pass between trainsets. That'll make ticket collection and food service logistics just wonderful. Also notice how much end space is wasted by cab.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df03012004.shtml#DMUs
Another thing that's interesting, that regiosprinter car. I'm not sure if it was orlando, or tampa, but in the mid-90's they did tests and a public viewing/demo of that car to try to sell a local rail line(which is still talked about). I think it was actually in both cities. We need to relax some laws or find a way to cheaply build these things, it shouldn't take decades to get a rail line in.
Food service logistics? These are to be used by commuter lines, not Amtrak. As for ticket collection, ever hear of POP? It is used by many new start-up commuter lines. POP makes platforms into fare-paid areas, therefore ticket inspectors may check at the station and not necessarily on the train.
As for not passing through trainsets . . . two-car DMUs would be the norm, and passengers are expected to stay in their seats. That is, referring to the Siemens DMU. Tri-Rail bought some of the CRC DMUs, which will be pulling two BBD bilevels in push-pull service, like shown in this here pic . . .
One thing this article does indeed reveal is that Siemens has an FRA-compliant version of the VT642. They have it wrong where it comes to the DMU-plus-two-bilevel Tri-Rail train, because only the CRC DMU is powered and the bilevels are unpowered.
Food service logistics? These are to be used by commuter lines, not Amtrak. As for ticket collection, ever hear of POP? It is used by many new start-up commuter lines. POP makes platforms into fare-paid areas, therefore ticket inspectors may check at the station and not necessarily on the train.
They tried POP on the NJT AC line and it didn't work. You also run into problems with the TVM's break down. When headways are in hours or days people can't just "catch the next one" after missing a connection to buy their fare. Platforms as fare paid areas only creates a legal catch-22 zone, especially when the TVM's are located on the platform.
As for not passing through trainsets . . . two-car DMUs would be the norm, and passengers are expected to stay in their seats.
Looks like another advantage of rail transit bites the duts.
That is, referring to the Siemens DMU. Tri-Rail bought some of the CRC DMUs, which will be pulling two BBD bilevels in push-pull service, like shown in this here pic . . .
They tried that with RDC's...the acceleration went to shit and they overheated like mad. Ask Phil, he hates the Trailer Car comcept worse than Push-Pull.
*As for not passing through trainsets . . . two-car DMUs would be the norm, and passengers are expected to stay in their seats.*
I always saw being able to switch cars as a safety or convienance issue. Why's this treated as the opposite?
They report in the papers the tests are doing really well right now. I'm surprised I haven't seen more than one picture so far though.
Well Tri-Rail has been POP since the beginning 15 years ago.
People? Not nowadays, at least not private ones. And comfort? Ever hear of ergonomics? There is a reason why cabs of public transportation vehicles are getting more comfortable and easier to work with. For my part, I would prefer to have a comfortable engineer move me up and down the high iron versus an uncomfortable stressed-out one.
They tried POP on the NJT AC line and it didn't work
They never tried POP on the Atlantic City Line. Don't know where you got that from. If NJT had done that, rest assured that it would still be today's method of fare collection, despite TVM problems.
Looks like another advantage of rail transit bites the duts
What are "duts"? And it has always been the case that railroads did not like passengers passing from car to car, with the exception of long-haul journeys. And as for the DMUs, the cabs will invariably be at the ends of the trains, so the only "advantage" lost would be if you wished to jump off the end of the train at speed.
>>Tri-Rail bought some of the CRC DMUs, which will be pulling two >>BBD bilevels in push-pull service, like shown in this here pic . . .
They tried that with RDC's...the acceleration went to shit and they overheated like mad. Ask Phil, he hates the Trailer Car comcept worse than Push-Pull.
RDCs are not CRC DMUs. RDCs were never designed to work with anything besides other (engined) RDCs. Remember that blurb about "voiding the warranty" with Budd if any road tried using the RDC to pull trailer units? The CRC DMU is designed to push-pull trailer cars--and they are not the only DMU in the world that has done such a thing successfully; many British and European DMUs have been doing exactly that for over a half-century. Don't compare apples and oranges, I suggest . . .
They did try POP and I was there for it. There were validators on all the platforms and you had to punch your ticket. They abandonned it after a fairly short period of time. Chuchubob can confirm this.
And it has always been the case that railroads did not like passengers passing from car to car, with the exception of long-haul journeys. And as for the DMUs, the cabs will invariably be at the ends of the trains, so the only "advantage" lost would be if you wished to jump off the end of the train at speed.
I don't think railroads have a problem with passing through...it enables them to use lo-level platforms and/or mini-highs where only one or two doors open or short platforms where not all the doors open.
The advantage is being able to change your seat based upon car conditions. What if you get into a car w/o AC or with a bunch of kids or noisy babies? In these things you'd be trapped. You only shoot yourself in the foot with a "beak" cab when it comes to operational flexibility.
Re: the Colorado Railcar DMU, it has 1200 hp. For proper acceleration you want about 500hp per car. Anything less and you'll start having acceleration problems. I don't know if the 1200 value is for a single railcar or for a married pair. There might also be an issue with a lack of adhesive weight.
And the CRC DMU it's just a cab at one end of each train, there's no issues on changing cars that I am aware of. And I still understand the test to be sucessful....so far.
I don't remember ever riding an AC train without having the ticket checked (but there's a lot that I don't remember).
[Aside] I rode the first regularly scheduled NJT train to Atlantic City. It wasn't the official first train, though. That was run at midnight for insiders, including the current president of the local NRHS chapter, who had been a PRSL tower operator for ten years before being downsized and moving to the Illinois Central Gulf where he worked for David Gunn.
I caught the next train back to Lindenwold from AC (30th Street service came later), and was glad I did, because a subsequent AC to Lindenwold train on the first day killed a woman and her two small children. The woman drove past 5 cars that were waiting at the crossing gates, then drove around the gate and committed double murder/suicide.
NJT Atlantic City to Philly train
Which means if you ran CRC DMU's in motor-trailer married-pair sets, you would still have an extra 200hp left over. Defintely there wouldn't be acceleration problems. And CRC was able to demonstrate more than once that its DMU could push and pull two trailer cars with no problem, even on a grade. That's what convinced Tri-Rail to purchase a three-car DMU set.
I just wish the MBTA and SEPTA could have at least considered testing the CRC DMU in service. But noooo, that would have made sense and these two agencies don't seem to know what makes sense (Silver Line BRT, Schuylkill Valley Metro, etc.).
I'm not assuming. I read the article. It refers to Florida and Oceanside, California. I suspect Jersey Mike refuses to type "California" since Arnold the serial groper became governor.
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Any comment from our Sound Transit fans? All I remember is that you love or hate ST. BTW, when will they want their trainsets back from VRE?
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df03012004.shtml#Sound
When it recurred a couple of times, I thought it might have been some fighter jets that we've had here on and off since 9/11.
Then I realized the sound was coming when trains passed on the LIRR embankment, a couple of hundred yards away, so I thought it was an acoustical effect of the extreme cold weather.
Well, I finally pinned it down. It's M7s! When I hear the sound, I've rushde to see what was going by, and it's always an M7. Why would this be? It's not flat wheels. The bi-levels must be heavier. ????
Also the M7s duct their traction cooling fans differently, higher up, away from the posibility of snow ingestion.
Elias
Thank you in advance.
I think modifying IRT stock is cheaper (3*51 = ~150) than modifying the whole line
My guess is that the Franklin line will be the final redoubt of the 75' cars. What will be done when those cars reach end-of-life is anybody's guess. It's too far in the future to speculate reliably.
A not unlikely scenario is that they'd just run two 60' cars. Is the Franklin line ever crush-loaded?
Yes! When school's out.
You had made a general announcement for everybody; that guy obviously wanted his own personal announcement.
You can't win, even for losing.
welcome to civil service...
(I exept the fact the fact no matter how good I make an announcement most still going to get someone who don't get it.)
I exept the fact that no matter how good I make an Announcement most of the time your going to get someone who don't get it.
Here she comes!___________There she goes!
Some highlights:
W Bwy
You are quite welcome!
A little more than a week I can see the B up close and personal...
I can tell that you are excited. Have fun!
W Broadway Local
Astoria & City Hall
Next stop on the B Brighton Express, Newkirk Ave. Please stand clear of the closing doors.
I wanted to be out there... but had class. :(
Tomorrow my afternoon is free! :)
It did turn out to be an awesome afternoon though. Too bad I had to spend it in a windowless "box" of a room at Baruch! Tomorrow promises to be better sky-wise, though a tad cooler.
Once the days start getting a bit longer again, then I'll head back out after work to places like the Brighton Line.
W Broadway Line
I'm glad you like them. I enjoyed taking them, and can't wait to do a Bombardier style photo assault on the line soon.
My advice is to ride the Q-lo in the last car and stop at every station starting from Beverley on down.
Robert
Departures between 10pm and midnight don't really count because most of the passengers will be at the airport before 10. And the number of arrivals in that time period is fairly low. What's important is that AirTrain be open by 4am, as people with early morning flights (not to mention workers) start arriving soon after.
That's true, although UA probably has fewer flights than AA or B6 given its diminished presence at JFK. Even so, if a 6-hour AirTrain shutdown is required, 10pm to 6am probably is the best time period because very few people are coming to JFK to catch flights during those hours. Figure also that delays for people leaving JFK after arriving on flights are less problematic than delays for people coming to JFK to catch flights.
AirTrain trains on the terminal loop were still running in the "wrong" direction as of Sunday AM. Perhaps this work is intended to fix whatever caused them to have to do this in the first place.
CG
CG
http://www.straphangers.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=000438;p=1#000000
Lexman who is a T/O posted:
"It seems like the Assistant Chief Transportation Officer for Subdivision A(the IRT) has launched a personal vendetta against all crews. Train Operators and Conductors are being subjected to severe disciplinary actions for "violations", some of which are totally ludicrous. Some of these so-called violations are things such as train operators not wearing ties(they are NOT required to wear ties), not having shoes or boots shined to the max, and even buying lunch during your lunch break can get you disciplined. He even disciplined a conductor who had to go to the bathroom (her train still left the terminal on time). Lord only knows if anything major happens. He has already stated that lunch breaks are to be eliminated, and work programs are to be changed without any regards to seniority. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH! I give 110% to give the riding public the best service I can. I don't need a big boss trying to demoralize the work force. We need all the help we can, before he destroys morale completely. He has even threatened employees who go to the union for help.
HELP US, ALL PLEASE! "
---------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Seems serious or maybe just an overreaction. Who knows.
Let's discuss.
Does he prefer an incident like that which occurred on the MOD trip ;-)
Sorry, I couldn't resist....
He has already stated that lunch breaks are to be eliminated, and work programs are to be changed without any regards to seniority
I now have to believe that the complaint is exaggerated. A break period is required under NY State Labor law and I'm sure the seniority rules are contractual. I don't think a transit official would overtly advocate violating both NY State Labor Law and Union agreements....
Nurses have to do mandatory overtime, and now as "professionals" no longer qualify for overtime wages. Maybe this endemic spreads beyond the TA. But more people are EXPENSIVE, and nobody wants to pay more, etiehr for a swipe or a wipe.
Elias
The Lunch breaks have been shortened on the # 5, 6 Lines you use to have 45 Minutes but it got cut to 30 Minutes. So if something happens on the Lex Line you won't have a Lunch. I find myself eating Lunch after my 8 HR Tour. I normally don't eat before work so it can get to be a problem so I may just change my eating habits.
Also another change is on the #6 Line you do all trips back to Back then get over 1 HR WAA at the end of the job. Sometimes I think they are trying to kill us.
Employees: be careful how much you say here or they may figure out who you are :-(
However, what you may see as minor issues, remember the rules are written and they want them followed word for word.
When I was in school car for C/R, a TSS was making a point. He asked if vests had to be worn in the yard. I said yes. He said no. He then instructed me find where the rulebook (at the time, don't know if its changed now with the new rulebook) stated the vest must be worn in yards. Guess what? The rulebook stated vests must be worn on structures, in tunnels and when crossing tracks. I always remember what he told me "the rulebook is in black and white... there are no shades of grey, no interpretation."
That's the thing. No interpretation. I've seen many employees who feel that certain rules are b***shit and so they choose not to obey them (like C/Rs with the tie in the top button hole, top button open). So, if the employee's be witten up for something "ludicrous" but is plainly written in a black and white in the rulebook, there's really not room for an argument.
Things like the boots are questionable. Says they have to be shined, but doesn't mention to what degree. H@ll, I come in with boots scuffed up that I wear while working on the car. However if I get caught, I have to take it.
About the lunches, remember this: the rules state an employee may not leave TA property once they've signed on the payroll. So, if some TSS or ACTO with a bad attitude wants to enforce that, you've got no leg to stand on.
About the lunches, remember this: the rules state an employee may not leave TA property once they've signed on the payroll. So, if some TSS or ACTO with a bad attitude wants to enforce that, you've got no leg to stand on.
Please point me at the correct rules governing these - I'll be damned if I can find them. Assuming that something does exist to cover circumstance #2, how does a switchman go between 239 Yard and 241 Station? New Lots Station and Livonia Yard? Pelham Bay/Parkchester and Westchester Yard?
Walk on the structure to/from these points.
"Pelham Bay/Parkchester and Westchester Yard?"
Take the next train to either Middletown Road or Westchester Square and walk on the structure to the yard.
For the latter, give me a day to find it again, but its in there.
Note: the image next to the article does not match the caption. The photo shows the second card in the series. It is of 72 St. The FIRST card in the series is as described in the article and caption, and a photo of it appears in the print edition of today's NY Post on page 17.
Sean@Temple
You're slipping Brian.
......
-Stef
-Stef
For what its worth I put some shots in of my home territory..
Not much to add about the trip,either, except how awesome it was, etc...but I also wanted to put some appreciation for the crew of the trip,who were all EXTEMELY patient with us foamers! Anyone know who everyone was?
Again it was real fun meeting everyone.... :>))
Trevor takes some outstanding pictures and I was laughing so hard at that frozen (or fried) rat.
However, being one who knows the Brighton Line very well, image #17 in your album has the incorrect caption, that is clearly not Church Ave. Looks more like Park Place on the shuttle to me. The Church Ave renovation took place around 1984-85, long before yellow tactile strips and wheelchair boarding area signs came into being (and regarding the yellow bumpy strips, that is the norm for all new station renovations.) Also Church Ave on the Brighton line is not wheelchair or full ADA accessible.
Thank you for a wonderful album and it was very nice for you to come down from the NY State mountains and meet me on the MOD trip.
This is not what 99% of the NYPD force would do, however with observations like this on the remaining 1 percent, we are not prepared for another terrorist attack in the subway system. This is very sad that innocent lives may be lost over such stupidity as the lack of being alert in the subway system (or anywhere else for that matter.)
However after the inital conversation between the officer and photographer on a legimate purpose, such a the personal use or a hobby results in the photographer being asked to move, that is harrasment right there.
Officer have the right to ask someone to move if they are in direct violation of the law.
Disclaimer: Have nothing to do with this publication, accept being a subscriber.
First of all, what do you mean by "The El?" New York has had two different kinds of els in the past century. The earlier els were erected in the late 1800's and predated the opening of the subway in 1904. Others were constructed in connection with the "Dual Contracts" of 1913 and were, in some cases, extensions or modifications of existing lines. There are other classifications too.
If you mean the classic els that ran in Manhattan, the last one closed in May of 1955, when the Third Avenue El was shut down. The Bronx portion of that system, from East 149th Street to Gun Hill Road, continued until 1973, when it too was closed.
You can also visit the "Elevated City" exhibit of the NYC Transit Museum in downtown Brooklyn.
Some closing dates of Brooklyn els :
Lexington Avenue : Friday October 13 1950
Myrtle Avenue (Bridge-Jay to Bway-Myrtle) : October 3, 1969
Fulton Street : June 1, 1940 (Adams St. to Rockaway Avenue)
June ? 1956 (Rockaway Avenue to Grant Avenue)
The elevated Manhattan-bound portion of the 14th Street Canarsie "L" line over Snediker Avenue, between Sutter and Atlantic Avenue stations, was closed, and demolition started, the second half of last year (2003). There are many photos of the demolition in progress under Sutter and Atlantic Avenue headings of the BMT Canarsie Line section of this site.
Many elevated lines still exist and run in all five boros of NYC.
This may sound unbelievable but until last summmer, I never knew what life was like under those elevated rail lines. The last time I rode the MTA to the elevated portion must have been around 1975 or 1976 when my father took us to Far Rockaway as children. Other than that day, I don't ever remember riding an elevated line in New York City. To be totally honest, there was never a reason for me to ride the subway into the Bronx or Brooklyn since I live in Jersey.
Last summer, I decided to take my bicycle and ride to the last stop of every line in Manhattan and come back home using my GPS. It was an EYE-OPENER on how life goes on beneath those elevated lines.
I'll never forget it. There was a block party going on beneath the #5 elevated with music and people cooking and food everywhere. I couldn't believe the festive nature under what was a very poor community. All of a sudden, a train came roaring by and scared the daylights out of me. The noise was unbelievable and I never heard such a racket before in my life. It was louder than the music that was booming from huge loud speakers. Seriously. I covered my ears to block the noise and closed my eyes to prevent any flying dirt and particles from the passing train.
Afterward, I noticed everyone looking strange at me like I was crazy. You see, no one even bothered to cover their ears or run for protection. In fact, they kept on enjoying themselves like it was NORMAL! I guess people can get used to even the worse of circumstances. I read they were going to close the elevated or use ballast to decrease some of the noise. Unfortunatly, it never happened and cities across the nation at the turn of the century who were thinking of using elevated rails were turned off from the idea after studying our system. It was a mistake.
Personally, I would never live within 5 blocks of an elevated line but it's a necessay evil if you're going to have mass transit. There is no way you can cut and cover for miles without spending tens of billions of dollars. All those cities who were afraid to build elevated railroads will simply continue to construct more highways. Once they run out of space and can no longer expand the system, they will begin spreading out or shrink like in Atlanta.
Really wasn't all that bad - you get used to it. Stef? You live next to WPR el, no? If the trains stop running for whatever reason, have trouble sleeping? =)
Regards,
Jimmy
On the SIRT (or MTA Staten Island Railway), the Stapleton Station area is on a concrete vaiduct, while most of the line is on an embankment. Also,the Dongan Hills Station is on a concrete/brick embankment which feels like an old 'el' due to two 1930's era steel overpasses(Seaview/Garretson Aves).
"http://www.nycsubway.org/nyc/sirt/"
CBTC gets a lot harder to phase in after that. Every other A- or B-Division route shares trackage with some other route, at least some of the time. Does CBTC have any benefits when it is usable on only part of a route?
I do realize that this "problem" is many years away, but I was curious.
The 1/9 and 6 are effective isolates, so I suspect they will be next.
1. They aren't effectively isolated, because frequently express trains run on the local track or vice versa.
2. Others have posted that various IND lines are next. Culver and Fulton come to mind.
Is is indeed conventional. My guess is the CBTC will function as an overlay in the initial phase.
With CBTC functioning as a signal overlay in certain areas but a motorman still at the controls of the train, properly equipped trains could operate in and out of CBTC areas without a problem.
On the MUNI Metro in SFO there is full ATO with CBTC: The motorman rides almost as a formality (ie: safeguard against loss of comm), and acts as a conductor until the street running begins.
Aside from the L and the 7, does any line derive benefits from being CBTC-enabled before the *entire division* is CBTC-enabled? Obviously you could convert isolated sections of routes, but if any part of the route still uses conventional block signalling, then the route as a whole doesn't derive any benefit...does it?
The only exceptions I can see are the 1/9 and the 6, which in their normal daytime configurations are isolated. Every other route in the system interconnects with some other route in its division, so I'm wondering if there is a significant benefit before a division in its entirety is converted.
Exactly what quantitative "benefits" are expected from CBTC-enabled track?
According to my understanding, the main benefit is that trains will be able to safely operate at closer distances than they do today, which will allow shorter headways, and hence greater capacity.
There are a number of ancillary benefits, such as being able to provide better passenger announcements.
How is that possible? Train separation is a function of the maximum stopping distance of the following train. CBTC does not improve braking performance.
which will allow shorter headways, and hence greater capacity.
If trains are opeating more slowly because their separation is less and there has been no improvement braking performance, then it is not at all obvious that reduced separation will result in reduced headway.
How is that possible? Train separation is a function of the maximum stopping distance of the following train. CBTC does not improve braking performance.
I think you already know the answer, but I'll answer as if the question were sincere.
CBTC does not change the laws of physics, but it provides the signalling system with more accurate information about where the trains actually are. With the present signalling plant, the only thing the system knows is whether a train is present anywhere within a fixed block. The system doesn't "know" whether the train is moving, or where on the block the train is located. Because of this, the signals are more conservative than they would need to be if the system had perfect information about the speed and separation of trains. It is my understanding that CBTC provides that information.
In other words, trains today are required to maintain greater separation than the laws of physics require, because the signalling system doesn't have all the information it ideally should have about where the equipment is located and how fast it is traveling at any given time.
The one catch with making use of the speed of the train in front is: suppose the train hits an obstacle and decelerates at a much higher rate than normal braking provides (example, deranged man drop steel objects on tracks)? You wouldn't want the train behind to crash into it.
Therefore, I'm not sure you can get much benefit from the fact that the train ahead is moving.
Also, as Stephen loves to point out, fixed block systems can have 500' long blocks, and in fact do so in places where it matter such as the southbound 4/5 at 14th St.
Here's my guess: if you designed a fixed block system from scratch, you could probably get virtually as short train separations as with CBTC. But if you're going to design it from scratch, you might as well make it CBTC for the same price and get added benefits that allow OPTO or even eventually ZPTO.
Also, the current signaling system got messed up by a sudden change in believed braking ability of trains. Thus all the timers, because timers are cheaper than redoing the whole signaling system. With CBTC, any such change is a software change, not a need to reposition every single signal.
How much more information greater precision and accuracy will CBTC supply?
Suppose CBTC were 200 feet more accurate. This means that trains could be spaced 200 feet closer together and still obey the same physics. If the trains were travelling at 40 mph, this translates to 3.3 seconds.
Somehow, I don't think a 3 second decrease in current headways will raise current service levels from 26 tph to over 30 tph. The difference between 26 tph and 30 tph is the difference between 138 and and 120 second headways. CBTC will buy 3 seconds, how will the remaining 15 seconds be obtained?
You wouldn't need to convert a whole division, just a whole line segment. CBTC-equipped trains can operate on non-CBTC track, though not very well vice versa.
Example: CBTC-enable the Queens Blvd Line, hopefully allowing 40 tph. That doesn't mean you have to CBTC-enable the G line or the Culver. But you would have to run CBTC-enabled equipment on them if that equipment went to Queens Blvd.
On the same section of track?
Train A is not CBTC equipped and its follower, Train B, is. The CBTC system does not see Train A and thinks Train B has a clear track ahead. Train A stops and the CBTC system still thinks Train B has a clear track ahead. The CBTC system tells Train B to plow into the rear of Train A. N.B. Train B no longer has stopcocks that can be actuated by trippers. CBTC does not need them. Besides, debris is always causing trains to go into emergency.
CBTC uses a minimal block system to guard against non-CBTC equipment on CBTC track. The TA's minimal block system will handle only 4 trains/hour on a single track. Bring in a non-CBTC train, or one with a damaged DCS, and the whole line grinds to a crawl. Is that your idea of coexistence?
The problem with that approach is a high inital cost for no benefit. You're advocating retrofitting 6000 cars (at least 1500 with linkbars) on the chance they might have to wander onto CBTC track. CBTC will require a 30 year implementation period for the entire system. A lot of the retrofitted equipment will be scrapped before they see full time CBTC operation.
I've NEVER been permitted into a cab on the R142 class submarines. But, thanks to many things coming together for my Christmas visit to the city in 2001, I happened to run into friends on an invite after a wonderful outing with the subtalkers that came and hung out with Nancy ("bingbong") and I when we last got down there. Bottom line was the 143's had JUST gone on the rails and arrangements were made for us to take a ride, get some handle time on a real 143, and play around on the first trainset that had arrived (8101-8108 for car number takers - only reason I remember is I'm looking at a photo of me in one and noted the console, and can count to "8 units").
Anyhoo ... the 143's had a CBTC cabinet offside down on the floor. In the "sure, check it out" mode that had been going on during the "run it back and forth and open off-side" on the Canarsie line, was shown all the open panels and "what's inside" during pre-acceptance testing with Kawasaki brthren plus a retiring TSS who's now gone. Provisions were made - the ONLY issue at the time of delivery was precisely WHAT would slide into the cabinets as far as circuit board matching the designed-in pinouts ... looked almost like a pair of S-100 busses to me.
The final "plug-in communications" gear was not yet "designed" so I was told when I ran an R143 on the Canarsie line with a "pilot" in the dead of night very near or on a holiday. But it was "on the way" then. So as far as the "about to go CBTC Canarsie" the CARS are equipped. The electronics is probably already on property ... so CBTC will NOT be a "poor investment" there, nor is its cost much delayed. I believe that once the signals wake up, the cars will too in a mutual orgasm of clockwork precision. Heh.
It's just that the CBTC will *require* 143's and no other car can enter unless GOH'd with CBTC electronix. I've seen the "modern" R32 cabs. GEEZ! I'm willing to wager REAL MONEY on where they're going to cram that stuff. Ain't no place to stick it and trust me, the T/O's already got enough crammed up there already without having to make room for more. :(
So CBTC-equipped gets the steel cars and non-CBTC gets the wooden cars. But from an engineering standpoint, the work was executed well, designs work, it's all a matter of getting it all plugged in ... lamp test, anyone? :)
At least we're starting with some agreement :-)
But future contracts are not determined, and that's what we're talking about. There's absolutely no reason why the ZC's could not monitor the legacy track circuits and signals.
I assume you're suggesting that future CBTC "conversions" might consist of a full-fledged block system, in addition to CBTC. In a word, the problem with that approach is cost. CBTC is supposed to save money. It can't if it requires a complete block system and another CBTC system on top of it.
Why do you think Flushing was just resignalled when it is next on the CBTC list?
I believe the Flushing line's resignalling had more to do with Con Ed's refusal to continue supplying 50 Hz power for the existing signals than with CBTC's arrival. It was colossal bad timing with the entire system scheduled for replacement within a decade.
Those signals aren't going anywhere, I'm sure they will stay as a back up system. Politically, the TA cannot afford massive delays on the 7 when implementing new technology, so 4TPH is out of the question.
Again, if the only way that CBTC will be practical is for an entire duplicate 30-40 tph block system, then its cost becomes prohibitive. Just put in the backup system and forget about CBTC.
Sure. -but why remove the legacy system during cutover? Like Jeff says, non equipped cars will dissappear before CBTC is system wide. And at any rate, the discussion is whether the system can be phased in. If you overlay CBTC over an existing system, then you can run anything on it, and have backup for the new stuff when it fails. Whether or not transit chooses to work it that way is up to some planning committee somewhere.
I believe the Flushing line's resignalling had more to do with Con Ed's refusal to continue supplying 50 Hz power for the existing signals than with CBTC's arrival.
Absolutely not true. Firstly, nothing on the IRT or BMT ever ran 50 cycles, and secondly when Edison pulled the plug on the 25Hz in the late 90's, static converters were installed at the TA substations, which continue to supply 25Hz signal mains to this day.
Again, if the only way that CBTC will be practical is for an entire duplicate 30-40 tph block system, then its cost becomes prohibitive. Just put in the backup system and forget about CBTC.
The best idea I've heard yet. Coded track circuits with speed enforcement sound great to me.
Legacy systems are expensive to maintain, otherwise they would not be replacing them either in kind or with new technology. One will obviously keep the legacy system running until a major section of CBTC controlled track has been proven. After that, high maintenance costs will dictate their removal.
non equipped cars will dissappear before CBTC is system wide.
The problem is more that all cars have to be equipped before CBTC becomes system wide. Consider the following example. Suppose for example, the BMT 4th Avenue lines were equipped with CBTC but the Brighton weren't. Some incident takes out the Brighton between DeKalb and Prospect Park. Where do you put the non-CBTC equipped sothbound Brighton trains rolling into DeKalb. Once they go onto the 4th Ave line, 4th Ave service is toast (4 tph). No, every train must be CBTC equipped to guard against contingencies. That means a large up front cost for very little gain - very little CBTC service.
when Edison pulled the plug on the 25Hz in the late 90's, static converters were installed at the TA substations, which continue to supply 25Hz signal mains to this day.
I read this information on this board. It was posted by an MTA employee whose stated responsibility was to oversee the signal rehabilitiation projects. Then again as an economist he has always insisted that he had no engineering training. I guess he was sold a bill of goods.
I'm glad they used static converters. I stated such a solution was better than replacing the signal system, when the subject was raised.
That still leaves the question as to why they replaced the signal system on the Flushing Line. The replacement still uses hard wired logic. It's not the type of technology that's especially easy to interface to CBTC equipment with serial communications. They would have been much better off interface-wise, had they used PLC based solid-state equipment.
Coded track circuits with speed enforcement sound great to me.
It's not going to improve service capacity sufficiently to justify its added cost.
When they did that replacement, they learned an awkward lesson
about phase locking!
Okay, the thread is: Can You Phase In CBTC? and now you answer is yes, overlap them and then remove. right? 'cause before you said no.
The problem is more that all cars have to be equipped before CBTC becomes system wide.
And thus the overlay.
Step 1:
Equip all cars and all lines with CBTC at you leisure. For this time, test CBTC using fixed-block as a fall back, using cars that are equipped. Continue to maintain the old signals, and continue to pay train operators and conductors. Signal Maintainers are issued only 12v test bulbs and hammers.
Step 2:
Once CBTC is proven and 100% installed on cars and tracks. Remove the legacy signals, lay off any T/O's or C/R's that don't want the new title of "OPTO Train Attendant." Signal Maintainers are still issued 12v test bulbs and hammers, but now get a laptop also.
:-)
As far as the AC power stuff goes, all I can say is that I've personally worked on the 25-cycle equipment on the IRT and BMT. 50-cycle equipment never existed anywhere that I've heard or read about.
The crux of the matter is the schedule for equiping cars and lines. This would not be a challenge, if the lines were discrete. They aren't and that's the challenge.
If a single non-CBTC train wanders onto CBTC track, the system reverts to a block system. If this is a frequent occurrance then any benefit in terms of increased performance or lower maintenance from CBTC will be lost for that section of track.
OTOH, if a CBTC equipped train spends most of its time on non-CBTC track, then there is little benefit to be gained from equipping the train.
Either way, a lot of up front money must be spent before any payout can be expected. This might be the norm for the TA but most enterprises expect faster returns on investments.
This is clearly true, but it appears you're stating the worst case. In my original question, I was asking what benefits can be achieved assuming that car purchases and signal system upgrades are rationally coordinated. Obviously, if it's done irrationally, you could spend tons of money without getting any benefit for many decades.
Or, are you saying that no conceivable implementation plan, even if done rationally by smart people, could deliver phased-in benefits?
I've heard that RTO has serious reservations about the backup system for Canarsie, and also heard that the debacle in San Franciso was in part a result of a buncha software guys blindly saying "oh yes, It will work" until the day of the cutover everyone said "Oh no, It's not working!" Unfortunately, Canarsie just might be the place where things get fixed in Beta-Testing = on your way to work.
Another spawning project is Automated Train Signalling...ATS. Far easier to install and maintain. This system is in use on mainline freight. I've never been able to contact 'Team ATS,' the group involved in this project.
Incidently, I was surprised to see mention of the '7' line. Historically, this was the first line to use 'electromechanical control' before computers were even dreamed of. I remember the physical construction: specially built loops of wire were mounted in circular housings parallel to the cab face. Loops of wire were mounted in square signs parralel to the track. When the train passed by, the two loops of wire acted as a transformer and allowed the 'message' to pass which controlled switches and signals. I do not know the method of communication. It did work, for a while...like everything else. CI Peter
David
David
That's too much of a simplification and not completely accurate. Most train control systems use wayside sensors to determine the presence of a train, its location and possibly its speed. The wayside sensors are connected to a logic system that determines orders to the the trains. It transmits these orders back to the train. The logic system can be distributed hardwired logic, a central computer or any variation in between. These orders can be relayed directly to the cab or via wayside signals.
CBTC is fundamentally different. The train knows its position and speed. The train communicates this information to wayside equipment. The wayside equipment communicates this to a logic system that may be distributed or a central computer. Again, train orders are computed and sent back to the train. The difference is that the train knows its position and communicates this to the traffic control system.
Originally, the 'L' was to have continuous microwave transponders operating on the 2400 mHz amateur radio frequency band. Later on, the software supplier was dropped and inductive link couplers (coils of wire that act like transformers) were set every, say 100' feet on the railbed so as to set up 'zones' like signal rail.
There are 3 types of Digital Communication System's (DCS) commonly used for CBTC systems. This is the communication between the train and the wayside equimpment. They are RF, inductive loop and leaky transmission wire. An RF system is favored for the TA because it should require less equipment. The DCS that passed the field trials used a packet switched network (TCP/IP), not continuous transponders. The TA has let the lead contractor substitute its own proprietary and untested RF DCS in place of the system that was used in the tests. One of the two follower contractors has dropped out as a result. The remaining follower contractor will purchase the DCS from the prime contractor. To date all operating CBTC systems use either inductive loop or leaky transmission line.
I was surprised to see mention of the '7' line. Historically, this was the first line to use 'electromechanical control' before computers were even dreamed of. I remember the physical construction: specially built loops of wire were mounted in circular housings parallel to the cab face. Loops of wire were mounted in square signs parralel to the track. When the train passed by, the two loops of wire acted as a transformer and allowed the 'message' to pass which controlled switches and signals. I do not know the method of communication.
The Identra System wasn't a communication system. It was a grid dip meter. The toilet seat mounted on the train was a passive tuned circuit. There was a switch that selected a capacitor to correspond to a given route. The wayside equipment transmitted low level RF and determined which resonant frequency it was coupled to, as a train passed.
I'd imagine the Manhattan trunk lines would be the last to go to CBTC.
I'll forget about the grammer or bad typing.
That portion was not shortened as much as rerouted. The Jamaica line was redirected to the new Archer Avenue extension in 1988. Then the abandoned portion of the El was torn down.
Look like you've already forgotten about your spelling.
Dates on which I last used the now-demolished Jamaica el stations :
168th Street : early September 1968.
160th Street : never used it. But it's close to the present end of the E, J and Z lines at Jamaica Center, Parsons Blvd. / Archer Ave.
Sutphin Blvd. : early June 1979
Queens Blvd. : Tuesday January 26 1982. Was the end of the line at that time.
Metropolitan Avenue : early June 1984.
Jamaica Avenue looked weird, naked, without the el, when I rode under it on the Van Wyck Expressway, May 1990 and September 22, 1991.
There is now a multiplex cinema (I think 10 screens) on the southeast corner of Jamaica Avenue and either Parsons Blvd. or 160th Street, taking the place of the once-grand and now-gone Loews Valencia (now Tabernacle of Prayer) Merrick and RKO Alden cinemas. You can see the Valencia and the Alden in some images of the demolished 168th Street el station.
I don't remember being in the Valencia as a kid. My dad, and a friend at work who will turn 56 on the 21st of this month, remember it well, especially the blue ceiling which, with its stars, resembled the sky. My friend from work thought it WAS the sky, when he was a kid !
I've never been in the Valencia since it became a church. I walked by there June 28 last year but didn't go in, although it did look dark, cool, and inviting on that busy street, on that warm, sunny summer day. The sheer size of the building struck me especially as I was crossing Merrick Blvd. on the north side of Jamaica Avenue, as I saw the unbroken immensity of the east side of the building, about five stories high, and a block long.
I too am glad that the interior of the Valencia has not been changed much. The covering or removal of some of the naked cherubs reads like typical evangelical, Pentecostal church modesty. I'm reminded of an art professor commenting on how Jimmy Carter asked that some paintings of nudes in a hotel lobby be covered while he was campaigning there in the summer of 1976.
I have not ever been in the building , but the doors on the side were open once when I went by , and the building is nicely maintained , even if by a church instead of a theater . I guess it could be worse , they could be showing porn in it like some of the Times Square ornate theaters had to go through for a few decades before "Disney" came in to save them .
God has no problem with our genitalia, though we humans too often seem preoccupied with, and overstimulated by, them.
The Austin, at Lefferts and Austin in Kew Gardens, was pornographic, until it became a multiplex art cinema in the latter '90's. The Haven, formerly in Woodhaven on the south side of Jamaica between
Forest Parkway and 75th Street, would have been pornographic, but for protests of local civic groups. I think it's a mini-mall now.
The Haven, formerly in Woodhaven on the south side of Jamaica between
Forest Parkway and 75th Street, would have been pornographic, but for protests of local civic groups. I think it's a mini-mall now.
While I think it would be really sad if they were using a beautiful theater for something like pornography, I guess it would be better than the alternative...destruction. A mini-mall to me is a worse fate. I only wish the old Madison or Bushwick theater had become a "porn" theater in the 70's, they still may be intact today, with the hope of restoration one day. Granted, both those buildings still exist, but the interiors are gone, of course better perhaps than the Broadway near Myrtle-Bway that is totally gone. Even the beautiful New Amsterdam theater in Times Square had to be a porn theater for a while to "keep it alive", and now Disney has the Lion King in there and it is totally restored. Who knows, even the "Tabernacle of Prayer" has the potential to return to the "Valencia" one day - in the meantime, the building is being maintained.
Old movie "palaces" are stubbornly difficult to convert to other uses given their physical nature. Among the very few alternative uses that allow the interiors to be kept intact are places of worship or "legitimate" theaters. Converting one to retail use or multiplex theaters usually requires subdividing the interior, in the process losing what made it a special place to begin with.
Perhaps this question has already been answered by the atrocious board game, "Ghettopoly", or by the Spike Lee film, "Crooklyn".
I would not have wanted the RKO Madison Theater to become pornographic. I remember a sign on the front of it in late February 1978 :
THIS IS HOW YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD STARTS TO DECAY.
IF THE CONDITION OF THIS BUILDING BOTHERS YOU, CALL XXX-XXX-XXXX
I never called that number, but I was glad when the RKO Madison Theater was no longer vacant and unused.
I do agree, however, today only it's shell remains. It was way to beautiful a theater to be turned into a "porn" theater, however, it was also way to beautiful a building to lose it's interior also. I remember in the early 80's when it became Consumers, and then "Odd-Lot". The ceiling line followed that of the balcony. They put a low ceiling in, but the balcony ceiling remained (or the floor of the balcony). At some point the theater burned, I don't remember if that is before or after it was gutted. I wonder what remains if anything of the old ceiling's plasterwork.
The same with the Oasis on Fresh Pond Road. Today it's just a hulk of itself as a CVS store. While it was converted in the 80's to a roller rink, all it's features were still there. And while I had many of fun days there when it was a roller rink, I wonder that if perhaps it had survived as a theater, even the unthinkable, a porn theater, maybe it would have survived long enough to one day be restored for proper theater use....or perhaps not, it may have burned anyway. In that case, at least the building did "die" somewhat happy in it's final days as the roller rink as opposed to have to spending it's final days as a smut theater.
Luckily many theaters like the New Amsterdam survived that humiliation to beome shining stars one again.
Image that - From Porn to Disney - can't get more opposite than that!
Coming home from high school and college to Ridgewood on the L train, coming up out of the Myrtle Avenue station at the easternmost exit on Myrtle, just east of Wyckoff, by McDonald's and the Optimo Cigar Store, the RKO Madison Theater marquee was one of the first things I saw. It would have been disheartening to see porno films advertised on it. Even blaxploitation crap, like Raymond St. Jacques in "white brain in a black body", which I remember from fall 1969, or "The Legend of Nigger Charlie" in summer 1972, would have been preferable.
As an aside, the Wagner Theater at Wyckoff and Dekalb Avenues, adjacent to the DeKalb Avenue stop on the L line, used to show German-made films, but, as the German population of that area of Wyckoff Heights decreased, it became porno, showing such masterpieces of cinema as "Devil's Bed" and "Let's Play Doctor" in the late '60's.
I have no idea what the building is used for now, or if it still exists.
The Arion Theater, on Metropolitan Avenue just east of 73rd Place in Middle Village, Queens, was a smaller "bargain" cinema. I saw films there from 1970 to 1984, "Marooned" to "Terms of Endearment". I've been in it since it became a Jamron Drugs store. It was an odd feeling. I tried to imagine where the ticket booth, lobby, refreshment counter, seats, aisles, and screen had been, but could only roughly locate them. Nothing of the interior decoration was left.
I fancifully tried to pick up the vibes of the past, from when it was a cinema, but got nothing.
At least some of the interior decorations remain at RKO Keith's in Richmond Hill. Sadly, the American Museum of Sound Recording has left there. A recent "Queens Chronicle" article noted that the fate of the massive RKO Keith's in Flushing is still in debate.
Better known as Why Do I Keep Playing Golf When I'm So Much Better at Basketball?
it became porno, showing such masterpieces of cinema as "Devil's Bed" and "Let's Play Doctor"
Now wait ... isn't Let's Play Doctor a new reality series on the Discovery Health Channel?
I saw films there from 1970 to 1984, "Marooned" to "Terms of Endearment"
Terms of Endearment, blecch! I'd rather watch blaxploitation or porno, than that syrupy crap.
The "white brain in a black body" movie was 1969's "Change Of Mind", with Raymond St. Jacques and Susan Oliver. Probably very good, compared to "The Thing With Two Heads", or whatever it was called, with Ray Milland and Rosy Grier.
"Now wait ... isn't 'Let's Play Doctor' a new reality series on the Discovery Health Channel?"
Perhaps, and perhaps a direct descendant of 1992's "Dr. Giggles" :
"The doctor is out ... of his mind !"
Preceded a year earlier by that drug control ad, shown in theaters, showing a surgeon, high on grass, about to operate on a patient, from the patient's POV, right before going under anaesthesia.
I walked out of "Terms of Endearment" at the Arion Theater, late April 1984, took the Q54 bus east a few miles, and caught "The Right Stuff" (literally!)at the Cinemart in Forest Hills.
it became porno, showing such masterpieces of cinema as "Devil's Bed" and "Let's Play Doctor" in the late '60's.
Hahaha! Your comment, "such masterpieces of cinema" really made me laugh. It remindes me of the first time me and my friend snuck into the XXX section at my local video store as a teenager, and being hysterical at some of the titles being a "play" on real films, like "Bright Lights, Big *****" (filling in a rhyming word to "Cities")....such "masterpieces".
Clever porn titles ? Try "My Bare Lady" and "Ball Street".
Due to falling asleep on a Q65, I wound up at Jamaica, so I had to walk around 'aimlessly' to find a Q17. I walked down Jamaica Avenue, with the sidewalks paved in brick. I just can't picture a rickety El running down there, but I guess the TA succeeded.
The remaining section beyond 121st Street was closed in 1985, but the structure remained standing for quite a while afterwards. I drove along Jamaica Ave. in October of 1988, and that abandoned stretch was still intact.
I rode out to 168th Street a few times, once in March of 1968 on a JJ and twice in 1969 on QJ trains.
I have a vivid memory as a kid from either the summer of 1979 or 1980 of watching construction workers taking chainsaws to the Jamaica bound track inside the Sutphin Blvd station as I waited for a Q44 bus to the Bronx Zoo. It was so sad to see, and I was afraid that the whole J line was going to be demolished.
A reasonable sign, I'd say, that the joint was beyond redemption :)
The first part of the answer has been given, i.e. to reroute the line.
The second reason was it was supose to be the initial phase of an extention of the J into South-East Queens (they were going to take over one of the two LIRR "Babylon" pairs of tracks.
There is more detail for you to read about on this site.
Instead of a Subtalk field trip----
How about the first annual Metro Olympics---Teams of two ride
the entire system---Perhaps, all teams start & end at the same station(s)----Perhaps, start at Franconia and end at Glenmont---
We can refine the rules later--i.e.---for proof, log all station times that we were in and the car numbers--or even more sadistic, get off at each station and get a bus transfer as proof.
Also, do we allow people to use buses to go from say Shady Grove to Glenmont or is the rule that a person can't leave the RAIL system...
Hmmmm....might deserve further thought & discussion...
Mark
p.s.---Would you believe we still have snow on the ground up here--UUGGHH!!!
That's a great idea!! Spice things up a little bit by having something like that. The funny thing is that I was thinking along those lines not so long ago that it could be a fun thing do by using different modes of transit in the area. Start at Point A to get to Point B using whatever means is the easiest. I like it!!
Yes, wear your best flannel and get a beat up old pickup truck with a gun rack and you're all set!
Wow, you still have snow on the ground? What a crazy winter this was. Makes me thinking of that lump of snow we saw at Huntington back in April last year!
1) RAIL ONLY
2) Start at Shady Grove and end at a station that has multiple lines running through it, like Metro Center or L'Enfant Plaza. By setting the start and end at 2 stations that are on the terminus of lines would lead to less variation in terms of possible routings
Rail only, especially Metrorail is a snoozer.
Mark
Try and get a Neo!
Maybe try and get a Breda, Rohr, and CAF enroute to the terminus too!
A friend of mine coined the following phrase to describe how smooth the ride on metrorail was, "Cadillac on steel wheels". I pass it on to Cody Pfanstiehl who was WMATA director of community service up to the mid 1980s. It was used in casual discussion by WMATA promotion people back in those early days but never really caught on. I thing it’s still a pretty good description of the ride.
John
Start at Glenmont
Red to Fort Totten
Green to Greenbelt
Green to Branch Ave
Green to L'Enfant
Blue to Addison
Blue to Stadium-Armory
Orange to New Carrollton
Orange to Federal Triangle
LUNCH
Orange to Vienna
Orange to Rosslyn
Blue to F/S
Blue to King
Yellow to Huntington
Yellow to Gallery
Red to Silver Spring (needed bathroom/refreshment, we really only needed to go to Fort Totten)
Red to Shady Grove
Mark
The only thing is we'd have to find someone who wouldn't participate to make up the clues so they wouldn't have an unfair advantage.
I think this whole idea WILL come to fruition
Mark
p.s.--Perhaps John and I could come up with the clues---I know, between the two of us---it WOULD be a challenge...John, you up for it?
I'm beginning to see this thing coming together....
John, you and I could have a good time testing their knowledge of Metro and its history and such.
mark
Here's a scenario...
We start at Union Station----I'd give all the teams their first clues which would taking them to a station where John will be waiting---from there John will give a clue to where I will be (I'll be going to that station straight from Union Station)---then as the teams get to where I am, I'll give a clue to the next place where John will be waiting (he would've traveled straight there from his previous location)---The only real work would be John and I coordinating the clues and making sure he and I are going where we need to be at the given moment...
Now all we need is a date---as for a starting location--I like the idea of Union Station to make it easy on the folks coming in from out of town.
Mark
But, May is pretty wide open except for Memorial Day weekend, which wouldn't be too fun anyway with all the extra things that go on that weekend.
I will assume the John you are referring is me.
Now all we need is a date---as for a starting location--I like the idea of Union Station to make it easy on the folks coming in from out of town.
I am game. Mark you and I can work out the details by e-mail. You guys pick the weekend makes no difference to me.
On a side note. I was looking at the March calendar this afternoon and noticed that WMATA metrorail will celebrate it’s 28th anniversary to the day on a Saturday the 27th.
John
Ballston, You and Oren pick the date---John and I will work out the clues based upon a starting point of Union Station....As for the end station----John and I will figure out how to work it...
Mark
Time for John to change his e-mail as I have been using the same one sense 1997.
John
Mark
Makes no difference to me, any weekend will do.
John
John
Here's a thought though, in order to not bring suspicion to ourselves, assuming it's nice out---Let's make a ruling that the teams HAVE to leave the system to get their next clue---In other words, lets say for example, the clue led the teams to Union Station, Either John or I would be standing by one of the pylons at street level--there we would hand out the next clue---this could be interesting at those stations w/ multiple entrances (L'enfent Plaza) and those where the pylon is a good distance from the station itself (Silver Spring)....I figure, on camera, if the station attendant saw someone hanging around handing out white things to people---I'd be suspicious so I figure they would be too....plus it forces those from out of the area to actually look at their surroundings...
Whaddya think?
Mark
Oh and a warning to all those who plan on participating---I figure teams of two or three will be sufficient-----be sure to bring any and all material you have on the system (old maps, plans, news articles, etc)---some questions will be definately easier than others.
John
As to Marks "Metro Olympics" I hate to through a wet blanket on this, but with all of the weekend track work WMATA has been doing it would be hard to predict what work will be being done where. This would likely reduce the amount of coverage a teem could get in one day.
For me it would refresh some of the stuff in my mind that I saw on my many tunnel walks I made back in the 1970s and 80s during construction. I don’t get to ride on metrorail very much. For you I will share the knowledge I have accumulated over the years about stuff you have never seen or how the stations were built.
Like, for those that saw Jane’s New York this last weekend and recall the front of the tunnel boring machine that had just broken through. This is the same type of machine that was use to bore the tunnels from just south of Woodly Park-Zoo (A04) to just north of Medical Center (A10) on the A Route Red line. When I saw it the second time it had just broken through in to what is now the north blowout vent shaft at Van Ness (A06).
John
Chuck Greene
John
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
Chuck Greene
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Mark
One of the neat things about attending the Rail Rodeo is if you show up early when there are doing the operator competition you get a chance to ride train in the yard.
John
There is test to show how close one can stop at a fixed marker, (manually stopping a train at the proper birthing point at a platform). They also tested how well the operator would deal with a dark interlocking signal, and how the operator would deal with a fire aboard the train along with ad lib announcement describing why the train was delayed, station announcements along with other stuff.
The maintenance people had a drill on cars that had failed systems and how quickly they could trouble shoot and correct the system, along with some bench drills A set of cars was on a hoist to do a visual inspection drill. Oren will tell you that pointed out to him that one of the cars was missing a third rail shoe.
John
Can someone help me here?
Chuck Greene
We look forward to having you both down here---as for pairing you up with DC Pros----Consider it done....
Yes, it IS June 5th--tentatively 9:00 am at Union Station Gate G? I believe---It's the gate where we always meet....
Should you have any questions...don't hesitate to e-mail me.
Mark
Chuck Greene
Pic 1 at 18th Avenue
Pic 2 at 18th Avenue
Pic 3 at 18th Avenue
Pic 4 at 18th Avenue
Pic 5 at 18th Avenue
Pic 6 at 18th Avenue
Pic 7 at 18th Avenue
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Pic 10 at 18th Avenue
Pic 11 at 18th Avenue
Pic 1 at Sheepshead Bay
Pic 2 at Sheepshead Bay
Pic 1 at Kings Highway
Pic 2 at Kings Highway
Pic 3 at Kings Highway
Pic 4 at Kings Highway
Pic 5 at Kings Highway
Pic 6 at Kings Highway
Pic 7 at Kings Highway
Pic 8 at Kings Highway
Enjoy these until Next Week
I think the NY Daily News needs to read track maps, how could a northbound D train run adjacent to a southbound F train?
DUH!
Thanks, Chris
til next time
The February 28th, M.O.D. Chaser Album
Armed with the free upgrades that Amtrak sends its "Select" members of Guest Rewards, I've sampled first class a few times. It can be quite noisy with cell phones and loud conversations. In addition, even though the seating is 2 x 1, once the singles are gone, you may be stuck sharing a facing foursome (2+table+2) with others. That can be rather cramped, and you may be forced to ride backwards as well if the car is crowded.
In addition, when in first class, you're basically stuck in that car. The attendants aren't keen on letting their passengers through the kitchen into business class, even to find another rest room if the one in the first class car is occupied (you can insist if you must). If you choose the quiet car, you can wander to the other coaches (and the cafe car) if you desire.
I'd stick with the quiet car.
At about 15:00, something happened which affected service on the north tracks of the Manhattan Bridge. At about that time, I was standing at Pacific Street, waiting for a southbound D train. The first 5 announcements were confusing and sometimes inaudible. The woman claimed that a "malfunctioning switch on the Manhattan Bridge" was causing all southbound D trains to "operate at slow speeds". Of course I uttered the obvious: there are NO switches on the bridge. Each proceeding announcement was laced with pauses, giggles (it was a female) and off-mike comments. Needless to say, the gathering crowdswere becoming frustrated with the seeming aloofness this woman demonstrated in her anouncements. After 4 N trains passed in 30 minutes, the message changed from a "switch malfunction" to a "power off condition". Many were wondering why this woman was telling blatant lies in her increasingly annoying and useless announcements. At 15:40, it was stated that a W train was approaching Pacific Street and that it would make all D train stops to Coney Island. We waited for 8 minutes for this "approaching" train to arrive on the southbound local track. The woman making the announcements said the W train would make "all local stops" to CI via the D line. At this moment a D finally arrived on the southbound track. The woman making the announcements didn't even acknowledge it's existence. While the two trains sat at Pacific St, the conductor on the W train announced that the next stop would be Union St. Several confused passangers seeking a local train rushed on. The doors closed and the W left. Only after leaving the station did the conductor announce that the next stop was 36th St. Hundreds of people who assumed the original announcement that the train would go local were trapped and obviously upset. They all left the train when we got to 36th St. Seconds later that D train pulled into the station on the southbound express tracks. 3 minutes passed before Murphy allowed the D to leave, announcing that the rerouted W train was now out of service. Of course you can imagine hundreds of delayed West End riders at 36th Street trying in vain to get on the next train out. The D train left first, running express down the West End line on the local track to make up for lost time. Now for my 3 major beefs:
- Why was the woman making the announcements at Pacific St. telling absolute falsehoods about the cause of the delay? Why was she giggling with men in the background and not concentrating on informing people as to what was going on?
- Why was an N train not rerouted via West End to cover the 45 minute gap in service?
- Why was a contingency plan used (extended W) which basically couldn't be put into practice before the situation began clearing up?
- Why were the northbound M trains leaving Bay Parkway this afternoon not going into service there? I saw 2 M trains pull into the station, pick up their conductors, then leave, without a single announcement being made. Luckily, I caught the 2nd one at Pacific St from the D.
This has not been a good past few days for whomever is in charge of contingency planning for emergencies. 59th Street botched the whole incident at W4th St. Sunday evening, and the performance during today's problem was inexcusable. To top it all off, I probably saw the worst conductor in the system on the B train I rode this morning out of BPB. She was held at 145th, double buzzed twice by the T/O to close down. Ignoring the buzzes, the T/O then told her to close down on the PA. She was told to disreguard the holding lights twice, but she wouldn't accomodate him until she personally called the tower to confirm that she could ignore the lights. I'm sure the T/O was pissed at this needless delay (approx 9 minutes).
There, I've vented. Respond/flame as you please ...
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
Well, I can think of certain possibilities :)
"Why was the woman making the announcements at Pacific St. telling absolute falsehoods about the cause of the delay?"
Being that neither you nor I know the REAL reason/cause for that delay, it's unfair for you to state the announcer was blatantly lying. Perhaps the "switch problem" was at the Gold St interlocking south of the Bridge, but how many nonrailfans are familiar with "Gold St?" Maybe that was why "Manhattan Bridge" was said. I'm 100% certain that announcer only stated information she was provided...no "dedicated announcer" has PERSONAL knowledge of situations...they simply relate what they're TOLD to relate.
Concerning the W conductor...I wouldn't be surprised if, at first, he was instructed to make Union St the next stop, then - after the train doors had closed - was instructed to make 36 St instead the next stop. It's not an uncommon occurrence to be told to advise customers one thing, to be immediately followed by an instruction to do something completely different instead. WHY this happens, I don't know...but it surely DOES happen enough. I remember one day working the M, and pulling into 36 St after a R train in front of me was removed from service at DeKalb Av (that train kept going BIE). As the doors opened at 36, and I opened my cab door, a customer asked me "is your next stop 9 Av?" I answered "as of THIS moment, it is." No sooner did the words leave my mouth did Murphy Tower instruct me to go to 95 St to provide customers with R service.
Sunday, I sat on an A train at 59 for three hours (I was the 6:30 PM out of 207). I was the only train not turned back uptown...since I was already in the station when service was disrupted, I couldn't be turned. I agree the announcements made over the station PA at 59 weren't very helpful; however, the train crews were repeatedly instructed to advise customers to take the 1 train. While I knew from the train radio there was a "smoke condition" at Broadway-Lafayette, and that power had been turned off from 50 St - Chambers on the 8th Av Line, I didn't know anything about the throwing of objects onto the tracks, or ANY of the info stated by Robert (T/O) in his post. In short, if you, as a customer, are on a train, and the train crew is giving out very little information, chances are the crew knows little more than you as a customer knows. After Sunday's events, my wife FINALLY believes me when I tell her what I just stated...she had seen the news reports about the fire, etc, all of which was news to me.
Finally, the conductor on the B: I'd be willing to bet that was a VERY NEW conductor, who was extremely fearful about making a mistake/possibly losing their job. Think about it: you're new, a T/O you've never worked with before tells you to ignore holding lights, and your school car instructions tell you NEVER to ignore holding lights. What do you do? "Whenever in doubt, call on the radio for instructions." Sorry, Chris...the conductor did the right thing.
Oh no. You're defending these idiots. Why?
As for the information (or lack of it) provided by the "dedicated announcer" at Pacific Street, as Tony indicated, she can only provide the information that she is given. She's not the person deciding which trains are to run where, only the person giving information to customers in what's supposed to be an easy-to-understand way free of jargon. Should she have been given better information? Maybe -- I had no involvement with the incident whatsoever so I don't know the specifics (what happened, how it unfolded minute-by-minute, what was going on in the tower, etc.), and, of course, there's no way any passenger could have all such information, either, but it sounds like she was doing the best she could to provide as much information as she could as it was given to her. Should she have been more composed when making the announcements? Possibly. Make a complaint to NYCT and have it investigated if it's that much of a concern.
As for a train running express after an announcement that it would run local, Tony gave examples of what can happen, and, as a passenger, I can attest to the veracity of his examples.
David
Buzz. Wrong. Because an order was given by local supervision, using holding lights, to hold the train in the station. Both the T/O and C/R must follow supervision's instructions.
This "the C/R is in charge of the train" is a bit of a misstatement, not your however. What it really means is that the C/R is responsible for the safety of the passengers and the equipment, among some other things. It does not make the C/R the "boss".
> What she should have done (and, according to the initial posting, did do) is contact local supervision to request that the holding lights be turned off.
Oh, so now the C/R determines how long the lights stay on? She should have called for clarification as to why they were being held, not to request that they be turned off.
David
Its a catch phrase that the TA uses, which needs to be changed. All it means is that the C/R is responsible forthe safety of the passengers and equipment. The C/R has no authority over anyone. Neither does the T/O or TW/O (despite what some of either title may think). The only "bosses" in the TA are supervision, management - and the supreme boss, the rulebook.
And the "good book" states QUITE clearly that holding lights are to be OBEYED. BLINDLY. A motorperson or conductor has *NO* authority to make "independent decisions." If there is *any* question, you're supposed to consult with supervision before doing ANYTHING not in the rulebook. When I was a "geese" I got honked off often at the realities of being a seat-warmer, but I knew also that the rules were the rules and heaven help ANYBODY that violated but one of them for ANY reason.
Your gripe therefore shouldn't be with the conductor at ALL. The conductor did the RIGHT THING. Your beef is with whoever was in charge of the holding lights ... sorry, but this is an immutable reality of the railroad ... the folks in the train are NOT allowed to make "management decisions" any more than passengers are. :(
If the T/O knew she had authorization to ignore the lights, why didn't she? It was her lack of attention that increased a delay unecessarily. She was very chatty with a male rider who got on at Kingsbridge Road. No one was asking her to break rules, including me.
Ever since conductors were also issued radios, the CONDUCTOR was fully responsible for calling in in such a situation and NEVER taking someone else's word for it (or Beulah the buzzer) for closing down. Believe me, I understand your feelings fully. And what you might not also be aware of is that a delay for the CREW means in all likelihood a missed break, a missed lunch or other PERSONAL penalty when things like this happen. They're even MORE interested in "let's GO dammit" than YOU are. Their NEXT job number/interval doesn't shove off if they arrive late, and they need some recovery time themselves.
But given your passions on what happened there, the REAL issue was why were the holding lights retained? Given your apparent anger, you might want to have someone in management look into why THAT happened. If the lights went out, the train would have left, and there would have been no need to call the BMT desk to figure out why on the part of the conductor. I'm merely saying that the wrong neck is getting choked here. :)
I agree. I'm not saying the conductor should follow the T/O's orders here. I'm simply stating that she should be more aware of her job duties. The T/O sure was.
But if I was "back there" and saw my lights still lit overhead, I'd be getting a bit grumpy - but I wouldn't close up just because my partner told me to ... the proper response would be "control? Why are we being held?" Been there, done that ...
Guess what, you took the test, you may be one of "these idiots".
What's annoying is when people who do not know all the facts, refer to everyone else as "idiots" for having a different view.
I wasn't blasting all conductors/MTA employees, only those who directly committed the acts I described or those who want to apologize for them.
I am neither. In this case I am an angry rider.
What's annoying is when people who do not know all the facts, refer to everyone else as "idiots" for having a different view.
I know the facts. I'm simply putting them foward differently, in a way which apparently you don't like.
Don't feel bad, its not only the train screws. When I signed on Sunday evening I called W4 to find out what was going on, WHY were we holding trains, so I could make PA announcements (being the only trains I had in my station were N/B, the S/B customers had to get their info somewhere). All I got was there was "a problem a Broadway-Lafayette... *click*". I couldn't get information from other sources except for "Power will be removed from all 4 tracks to 29th Street".
Think about it: you're new, a T/O you've never worked with before tells you to ignore holding lights, and your school car instructions tell you NEVER to ignore holding lights. What do you do? "Whenever in doubt, call on the radio for instructions." Sorry, Chris...the conductor did the right thing.
Another thing to think about here Chris. You mentioned in another post that the C/Rs radio may not have been working. Yes, policy forbid this but it often happens: what is the T/Os radio is not working, and there is an emergency situation ahead (that signals won't necessarily prevent a train from entering the area)? The C/R closes down, train leaves, possible disaster, and guess whose ass is on the line? The one who ignored holding lights.
Just think of that for when you become a C/R: When I first started, I blew holding lights on a regular (particularly at Jay Street, but that's not really my fault with where they're located). My father, who was a C/R 20 years ago, brought it to my attention that they're not always holding for a connection or for time, but there may be something serious ahead and holding lights are the only way of preventing a larger problem. That stopped me from ignoring the meaning of holding lights.
Wait wait wait, she's the worst conductor for doing her job?
Let's get something straight, the T/O does NOT have the authority to tell a C/R to ignore holding lights. Only local supervision does, in this case the T/D at 59MT or 145 St, which is who she questioned. Before you make such a statement, know what you're talking about.
Sorry bro, but I had to vent on that one because I have had several situations this week with 1 A line T/O who felt he was my supervisor and I had to follow his instructions on which train went first, how I was not to hold his train even though its 5 minutes early (10:00 at night an additional 5 minutes means a lot to those going to Far Rockaway). T/Os are supervisors to no one, and they can't give orders. In fact if that C/R was to close down with those holding lights on, and wasn't given permission to do so by a supervisor, her ass could be in trouble.
The rest I'll agree with you though. It sounds as if communication was definitely poor between customers and employees. I had a similar situation on the R a few weeks ago where after the train left 36 Street, after being there for 5 minutes, did the C/R announce the train was going 63rd.
I've seen it done dozens of times before.
What galls me is this attitude that rules and personal interests dictate actions, not providing service to the paying customers. What if her radio wasn't working? Does she delay passengers and tie up service simply because she's unwilling to do the sensible thing? If she's too afraid to do so, then the whole MTA culture needs to be changed. We, the riding public, come first.
David
But her radio did work, when she called to confirm that she could ignore the holding lights.
Any suggestions as to ways the rule book might be rewritten to take customers' concerns into greater account without compromising safety or operations, rather than just saying that it should be rewritten, would be greatly appreciated
No rule would have been compromised, because the whole point to this was that she already had permission to ignore the lights. Even her T/O knew that, given the terse comments he made on the PA.
David
I see more personal intersts down here that result in a train being early leaving you to wait longer.
What you do not know is if there was a reason that she was given to hold in the station initially, and was just never updated. As far as she knew the situation still existed.
I'm not saying that's the case, but its a possibility.
> What if her radio wasn't working?
You said she called on her radio, which meant it was working. If her radio was not working, then she'd have to rely on the T/O and hope he/she was doing the right thing when he/she told her to ignore the lights.
I can't wait to see how you'll be the great C/R when you get called. It seems you know the job better than the current employees ever could. Can't wait until you get in trouble for doing something in the interest of "providing service to the paying customers" as opposed to following instructions.
I remember my days with the TA (shudder) ... and it's even MORE insane now. :(
Its one car length now, might as well not even stick your head out of that window. At sevety-five feet I think a train is still moving slow enough for someone to successfully jump onto the side of the train to ride, or attempt to get between cars.
Peace,
ANDEE
Adam
It has been said that women -- in general -- tend to be more emotional, whether it be laughing or crying, or any other outward display of emotion.
As for the testing,
1. It shows either ignorance or lack of communication between DeKalb and other towers along the line, in either direction.
2. The testing, I believe, is to show that a person knows what (s)he is doing, and what Chris posted demonstrates that it seems to him that people don't know what they're doing, therefore, connecting it with the exam, and accusing that it's too easy.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
- The new B/D/N/Q/R schedules need some adjustment, particularly outside rush hours. Trains are not evenly spaced. In fact, the D/N on 4th Ave and W/R in Manhattan run far to close together. N/Q and B/D trains are arriving at Gold Street at the roughly same time, invariably causing one train to be held as one is allowed to cross ahead.
- Some of the Concourse R68's have been recently worked on. I saw new black floors and new, scratchitti-less window glass installed on several consists. They look great, but I don't think they'll last very long in their present condition.
- Jamaica's R46's are filthy. Some of the windows are so covered with whatever that white substance grafitti artists have been using recently that it's almost impossible to see out of them.
- Has anyone been able to find out the reason behind the GO on the N beginning next week? Sea Beach riders will be crushed to see their trains once again condemned to the tunnel for a month after a 2 week "tease".
I took some color photos of that building with my Canon AE-1 Program film camera a few weekends ago and I'll have to scan in some of the shots. The 5Pointz building in LIC (viewable from the approach into 45-CHSQ from HPA) is set up and owned by people who sell permits to have artists come do some work on the building facade. Their goal is to fill up the whole building both interior and exterior with various writings and drawings. Hope I opened your fairly biased eyes!
I for one happen to enjoy the garish display as I pass it on the #7 train. One day I hope to visit there and view the canvas up close.
wayne
wayne
I haven't heard about any merging/diverging conflicts at Gold Street since the Manhattan Bridge opened fully last week. However, if it is observed regularly, I would wager that the schedulers will be made aware of the situation and work something out.
David
This morning I was on the 8:07 arrival at Brighton Beach (having boaded at 7:20 at Columbus Circle), in the second or third car from the south end, and there were few if any standees. (I was aiming to be one interval earlier, but the 1/9 I was hoping to catch ran early and its follower ran late, so I missed my connection by a few minutes. The BMT is fine; let's try to fix the IRT now.)
We paced an N over the bridge. This was the first time I've seen two trains pass through Gold Street in the same direction without conflicting, and it was an utter joy.
As for the upcoming GO on the N, it affects southbound trains only, until 7:45am only. I hardly think that will cause much of a hardship for most Sea Beach residents. (I do wonder, as a non-Sea Beach resident, whether that's referring to trains that leave Ditmars until 7:45, trains that reach Canal until 7:45, or something else entirely. I may need to ride the N into Brooklyn around that time and I'd like to know what to expect.)
No, southbound only, and the end time was changed to 7:45.
It's also affecting PM southbound N service.
It is? I haven't seen any such advisories.
Does anyone have a clue as to why it's necessary?
I'd guess that work is being done on the south-side-to-bypass track that requires more than the (approximately) five hours that the N normally runs through the tunnel. This GO gives the workers another two or three hours.
So Sea Beach service in the peak direction is unaffected? If so, I've been misinformed.
I'd guess that work is being done on the south-side-to-bypass track that requires more than the (approximately) five hours that the N normally runs through the tunnel. This GO gives the workers another two or three hours.
If so, a more sensible GO would be to start running the N thru the tunnel earlier, like 10 PM, instead of confusing rush hour service.
Do you think more passengers are bound for the Sea Beach line after 10pm or before 7:45am?
Another Subtalker whose word I took.
Do you think more passengers are bound for the Sea Beach line after 10pm or before 7:45am
There's no W train at 10 PM, routing the N via the tunnel then would be less congesting.
I've encountered merge delays every single time I've been on a train crossing from Brooklyn to Manhattan, at every time of day on either side of the bridge. Rush hours I expect it. You can't squeeze 36 TPH thru that interlocking without some delays. It's been 18 years since this service pattern last existed, and the current trackage probably has signal and speed restraints which didn't exist in 1986, so I'm not really complaining. I'm certain they'll eventually work it all out.
They should be able to increase service, but I would rather wait an extra minute than have run time increase because of delay. The trains haven't been that crowded that more service would necessarily be needed.
I boarded a southbound B at Columbus Circle right on schedule. Crossing the bridge, nothing was pacing us on the south side, but DeKalb managed to hold us at Gold Street to let a Q in front anyway. We passed that Q at Cortelyou and met it at Newkirk. Then, at Kings Highway, we held for so long (with no problems visible on the track in front of us) that the Q beat us to Sheepshead Bay by at least a minute. We reached Sheepshead Bay (where I got off) a few minutes after our scheduled arrival time at Brighton Beach (even though, when I asked the T/O at Kings Highway what was going on, he said we were being held for time). If something was wrong, it would have been nice if the C/R could have told us to transfer to the local at Kings Highway. And if the problem was at the terminal, why couldn't the train have waited at Sheepshead Bay, where about half of its remaining passenger load gets off?
Then, in the afternoon (before 3), a northbound V didn't hold for a connection with the arriving B at W4, even though there was a temporary disruption in F service at the time and the V alone runs at 11-minute headways.
It's one of those days, I guess, although I did get one of my favorite C/R's on the 1/9 in the evening.
A lot of it is made up of high school students, but it has plenty of adult ridership as well.
Anyway, Did trolleys connect to freight lines many(as in 70+) years ago?
These are greatly reduced and degraded for space.
Double tracked in the street, probably original bricks too:
There's that switch. Another interesting thing is these are the only blocks in the area that say "COLEDALE BLOCKS". All the others that are named say Baltimore blocks. Wonder any info about this company:
There's the conduit thing about a foot or two away from the switch:
I was taking some pics of some tracks in an empty field today, and when i walked away, i guess someone was coming and saw me. This guy walked over and started looking at them too. They were by themselves next to a tree. It's contagious.
I've been doing some research and came to the conclusion that when the swtich was around, all Tampa consisted of was the current City Hall surrounded by rail yards. About 5 of them all linked up in every direction. Big Port and Agriculture is all I know of that existed. And of course Henry Plants famous hotels.
Regards,
Jimmy
Of course, this is what you probably meant....
There they are
I really need to stick to one region someday and work from there...too all over the place.
I'm about a week from going to press with version 3.6 of the Track Book, but I have a question to any and all Bronxians. What's the nature of the GO that has southbound service running on M track, with extended platforms in place, from Gun Hill down to E180th? How long should this be going on for, and are there plans to do the northbound once the southbound side is complete?
Thanks.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.6 Coming Next Week!
The S/B Plat at Gun Hill Rd is currently closed for rehab, the contractor is preparing for escalator and stairway removal from the street mezzanine. It is also my understanding that the existing fare control will be moved upstairs.
Structural work was completed on Track M in January, while the S/B Track is getting worked on now. I'd expect another major GO to effect the 2 after 6/4, where the N/B Track will be taken out of service.
-Stef
P.S. As of this writing, all new signals are in place on the IRT from south of East 180 to North of 3rd Ave, and switch removal at Freeman St is complete!
Hi Stef,
Thanks for the heads-up on the project. I copied the June 4th in-service date. I'd guess it's a safe bet that they'll do the other side after that.
P.S. As of this writing, all new signals are in place on the IRT from south of East 180 to North of 3rd Ave, and switch removal at Freeman St is complete!
So I saw this afternoon :-) Have you heard or seen a timetable yet for the conversion of the last three sections of IRT signals (E. 180th to Bronx Park East, Mott to the Portal and the Dyre line)?
Thanks.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.6 Coming Next Week!
Sorry, don't have a timetable for E180th St - Dyre Av, but estimate by early 2005?
This would leave East 180th St to do....
-Stef
Wouldn't that be Bronxite ?
I'm originally from Brooklyn, making me a Brooklynite.
Bill "Newkirk"
As always, if anybody has info on upcoming track, tower or signal changes in the NYC transit system, I'd be very grateful for a heads-up with details, etc. I'm hoping to get the next version of the book out no later than the 10th of March, so deadline's fast approaching!
I already have all the service changes and track re-openings completed, Bronx signals on the 2/5, M-track GO mentioned in an earlier post is in there, some minor changes at Canal St. on the JMZ and a few homeball corrections. I have a tentative new track plan for Corona Yard and some rolling-stock changes that came about with the 2/22 service changes.
What say ye? Anything new??
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.6 Coming Next Week!
anything else?
paul
It is in active spoken use here in NY to describe certain Shuttles or shortened runs do to G.O.'s.
1. Go to the index
2. at the top of the page, click on, "Change Display Style / Killfile / Simple Search / Archives"
3. Select the following configuration:
List messages: Chronological
Poster: [+] USERNAME
Notes:
- Replace USERNAME with your own user name. For example, if I were looking for posts that I made, I would type, R36 #9346.
- The Posted within the last: and Or, pick by date: options are the date control options. Configure those to your liking. If you're looking for a post older than a month old, use the pick by date option.
- Be sure to check the box between the Poster: heading and the input box.
wayne
This was a one-shot deal. We got lucky. The Franklin Shuttle passengers got very lucky.
I'm sure they were happy to be on that train with rabid railfans.
Kidding aside, did any of them prefer to wait for the regular shuttle because they didn't want to get on the old equipment?
(I am not rabid - I had my shots)
If by some miracle you added three more cars, then you would have a train.
Why not? They used 2 car SOACs in regular service. They just ran them right behind regular trains. They could do the same thing with the museum trains.
Peace,
ANDEE
Lou,
I'm not offended. In my youth I was breed on 180' "GG" in off peak hours.
360' during peak. I'm all for running the "GG" with three arnines from
Queens\Forest Hills to Smith\9th Streets. Bring it on.
A true "GG" of my youth. Now if I could only turn back the
physical clock.
8 > ) ~ Sparky
"We'll be running these trains through our centennial year, and some lucky customers will get to ride on them...but they'll have to pay more than the 15 cents, though."
He does NOT explicitly state that the trains will be running in revenue service, so why are people jumping to that conclusion and asking if we already know the details of such future revenue runs?
Here's what we do know:
1. The MTA plans on running the museums trains in revenue service on October 27, 2004.
2. The MTA plans on running the museums trains on Nostalgia Trips many time throughout this year.
3. Because a recent MOD trip wanted to run on the Franklin Shuttle, the museum cars ran in revenue service for three round trips.
My thoughts on how these statements relate to Peter's quote:
1. They have publicized plans to run them in revenue service on one day. If they are going to run them in revenue service on more than one day, I think they would publicize it ahead of time to gain the maximum returns from the event. Peter's vague comment did not do much to inform people about more days of revenue service, if that was his intent. If that was his intent, I think he would have done a better job of making it clear.
2. Peter could have been talking about the Nostalgia Trips. His choice of words are odd if he was, but still, I think this makes the most sense based on the information we have.
3. I doubt Peter even knows the MOD train ran in revenue service, and even if he does and his comments were referencing that, then it would mean that future MOD trips will run in revenue service during large portions of their runs, or at least that many future MOD trips will travel over the Franklin Shuttle. I find both of these conclusions to be highly unlikely.
Because this is SubTalk and that's one of the things we do best!
P.S.: If I can, I'll post a link in response, but for now, I forgot the link-posting code. Sorry. :(
Daaaaaaaaummmmm!
til next time
March 2, 2004
HARTFORD -- A deal announced yesterday would assure funding of $60 million for up to 2,000 new commuter rail car seats and locomotives for Metro-North's New Haven Line.
The agreement, struck by Democratic Speaker of the House Speaker Moira Lyons and Republican Gov. John Rowland, could speed up delivery of new rail cars by a year or more. They could arrive in 18 to 24 months, officials said.
The existing fleet is 30 years old -- years past its normal life span -- and as much as a third of the cars at a time this winter were sidelined by bad weather.
Republican and Democratic legislators hailed the move as a good but incremental first step toward filling the rail line's need for 400 new cars. The deal would allow the state to buy 20 new rail cars and one or two locomotives.
"For the folks who are riding the rails, this is a major plus for them and not an easy thing to have succeeded in doing," Lyons said in a telephone interview. "We needed new cars and . . . it would take four years to get them, which everyone realized is ridiculous. We had to find a way to do it ASAP and have a way to achieve that."
The agreement includes $25 million in new state bonding to be backed by the state's Transportation Fund, a separate part of the state budget paid for by the gasoline tax that this year is estimated to be $923 million.
A previously allocated $35 million would come from the special traffic mitigation fund authored and pushed through the Legislature by Lyons in August. That fund, paid for by increased Department of Motor Vehicle fees, set money aside to pay for specific Transportation Strategy Board projects to alleviate traffic congestion.
The No. 1 project slated for southwestern Connecticut under that special fund is the purchase of new rail cars for the New Haven Line.
The agreement includes an additional $14 million to pay for additional transportation projects around the state.
The Transportation Strategy Board had allocated $49 million in the special fund for new rail cars, but the actual price tag is at least $60 million. The $49 million was not to have been available for at least another year as revenues built the fund up. The agreement makes the money available as soon as legislation is passed, as early as this month.
"Before we were basically constrained in that we couldn't start the process until we had the money in hand," said Harry Harris, public transportation bureau chief of the state Department of Transportation, in an interview. "That would take at least two years. Now we can start the process immediately."
The need for the cars became acutely apparent this winter when snowfall and record low temperatures put as many as 100 of the 300-car New Haven Line fleet out of commission for repairs. Trains were delayed, seats were few and many commuters were stranded waiting on platforms in the cold.
"Metro-North explained they were doing the best they could with a 30-year-old fleet that was expected to last 25 years, 18 service bays, and cars remaining out of commission for days, not hours," James Cameron, co-chairman of the Connecticut Rail Commuter Council, told the state Transportation Committee yesterday. "Commuters are angry, they are overcharged, they are getting lousy service and I fear they are starting to abandon the trains and get back in their cars and contribute to the worst traffic conditions."
In a statement, Rowland said: "The events of this winter have clearly demonstrated the need to accelerate the purchase of this equipment."
The cars are just the first installment of replacing the entire fleet. Rowland yesterday also asked for a report by the DOT and Secretary of Policy and Management Marc Ryan within 60 days to outline a plan to buy the 400 cars that the Transportation Strategy Board estimates are needed over the next several years to meet ridership demand.
"We must replace the entire 300-car rail fleet and the governor has directed Marc Ryan to come up with a plan to do that," said state Sen. William Nickerson, a Republican who represents Greenwich and parts of Stamford and New Canaan. "I'm very pleased that the governor has stepped in and recognized that the ancient, fragile fleet needs our immediate attention."
State Sen. Andrew McDonald, D-Stamford, said the effort "needs to be sustained over an extended period of time if we're going to improve our mass transit mess."
Westport First Selectwoman Diane Farrell, who heads the lower Fairfield County regional agency of municipal chief elected officials that oversees transportation issues, said "this is the first piece of $1.5 billion" needed to replace the rail fleet and build the necessary facilities to maintain it.
Harris said the DOT is looking at three options to get the cars on line as soon as possible: Seeking out compatible surplus equipment from other U.S. commuter railroads; looking for other rail lines across the country that might have compatible equipment already on order or being manufactured and "piggybacking" on the contract; and designing and ordering the cars brand new.
Harris said the variables under all three scenarios vary so widely he could not give a cost per car, but expects the $60 million would cover the expense
from :
http://www.stamfordadvocate.com/news/local/scn-sa-stam.trains2mar02,0,5212091.story?coll=stam-news-local-headlines
Where would they find surplus equipment that runs on catenary and third rail ?
Bill "Newkirk"
At maybe 6-7 million per locomotive and less than $900,000 a push-pull car (using the Comet V purchase by NJT as an example), 109 seats per Cab Car, 111 seats per toilet equipped trailer car, and 117 seats per trailer. A 42%-7%-51% split between Cab Cars, Toilet Equipped Trailers, and Non-Toilet Equipped Trailers is the breakdown NJT used in buying the Comet 5. 18 cars would fit 2036 people, in a 8 Cab Car, 1 toilet-equipped car, and 9 non-toilet equipped trailers, at an approximate cost of 16.2 million dollars, or $7956 per seat. If four or five ALP46s modified to run on 3rd rail at a cost of $7 million per locomotive are thrown in, then the cost rises to 44.2 or 51.2 million dollars, which would work out to $21,709 or $25,147.34 per seat.
If we call it $300,000 per car (a complete Wild Ass Guess) for the Mafersas from VRE, with 113 pax per car and 25 cars purchased. Then MN would get 2825 seats at a cost of 7,500,000 dollars, or a mere $2,654.87 per seat. With the same 4 or 5 dual-system locos tossed in, it'd be a total cost of 35.5 or 42.5 million dollars. However, those coaches are limited to 80mph, are getting rather old, and would have to be replaced in a relatively short time.
Of course those Dual-System locos would serve the same purpose as a P32 purchase, they'd allow the reassigning of P32s currently running diesel express service on the NH line (if any). Their order would have distinct advantages over buying new P32DM-ACs, since they'd also allow the purchase of M8s to be forestalled. Whereas the P32 purchase would be a stopgap solution, until the M8s, vehicles more suited to the NH line, could be designed, purchased and delivered, the Dual-System electrics would have pretty crappy acceleration on 3rd rail, but would offer MU-like performance under the wire. The P32's performance on the other hand would be universally bad, they're underpowered and would likely not be able to keep schedules on the local sections of the line they are working. Since expresses skip most of the stations on the 3rd rail anyway, the acceleration of an dual-system electric on the rail would be largely a non-issue anyway, whereas P32s will be forced to make some local stops on the NEC out past Stamford, where the electric locos could shine, the P32s will merely smoke and choke. That is of course unless the P32s are supposed to run full-line expresses GCT to NHV, but there would seem to be little point in ignoring all the enroute ridership so that a diesel can keep schedules on an electric route.
Compared to a potential M8 purchase, the ALP46 still comes out looking relatively intact. If we assume the M8 will be designed off the M7 (which to me seems logical), then it'd hold 104 people in a toilet car, and 113 in a non-toilet equipped car. With a 50/50 toilet/non-toilet mixture, you'd need 20 cars minimum for 2000 seats (actually it'd be 2170) with a M8 purchase, at a cost, assuming 2-3 (another WAG) million for new MUs, of $40-60 million, or $18,433.18 or $27,649.77 per seat (40 or 60 million dollars divided by 2170 seats). Of course the MUs have to be maintained more than a push-pull fleet, so they'd be down for maitenance more often, and would also be enormously heavy. The M7 weighs some 130,000lbs, and that's without a transformer or the dual-system equipment, which could add 20,000-30,000lbs, you could easily end up with a M8 weighing 80 tons, or roughly 75% as much as a ALP46 weighs anyway.
I guess I'm just confused why MN and CDoT would want to run P32s under exsisting wires when there's clearly an alternative, I know I am not the first and only person to propose this. Also I'm confused why they haven't considered electric-hauled push-pull sets for their express trains, where the MU's acceleration is not an issue. I'm not against the eventual purchase of M8s, I just question why so long a route with so many expresses needs the assistance of MUs when it's running at full speed for much of the run. Of course I definitely question the wisdom of buying more P32s, especially to be run under the wire, that makes very little sense and is a gross waste of infrastructure, electric locomotives with a slightly higher purchase price, but lower maitnenance and fuel costs would do quicker and more efficiently.
Any comments?
(BTW: anyone know a hard figure for the M7 and P32 per-unit purchase costs, or have a possible figure for the M8?)
2. $60 million would buy maybe 30 cars. Where's the funding for the other 1,970 cars?
David
David
The article does state, "The deal would allow the state to buy 20 new rail cars and one or two locomotives." Referring to them as "2,000 railcar seats" seems like a new low in wowing the readership with big numbers.
wayne
The accident occurred several months before the work was completed linking the Brighton line to what is now the service along Flatbush Avenue to link up with the 4th Avenue line at DeKalb.
The nasty S curve had just been put in so that Brighton line trains could swing around the new line to get into Prospect Park station on the local track as it is constructed today. It was supposed to be a 5 mile/hour (8 km/hour) curve....
Minor correction: Luciano was not a tower operator,but a yard-based crew dispatcher. Had he been a tower operator, it's possible that he might have known about the sharp curve with its speed restrictions.
IMO, he did know how to operate the train, if not expertly. BUs were difficuly enough to operate, that if he knew how to take it as far as he did, he knew enough to deal with the Franklin route. Evidence indicates he entered the curve without trying to slacken the train's speed. Mundane as the explanation is, I think he thought he was making a straight run into Prospect Park until the new curve showed him otherwise.
Luciano had no trouble handling the steep downgrade on the Brooklyn Bridge.
Evidence indicates he entered the curve without trying to slacken the train's speed. Mundane as the explanation is, I think he thought he was making a straight run into Prospect Park until the new curve showed him otherwise.
He also didn't appear to know about the flag stop at Consumer's Park.
I believe so. There also was some way that people waiting on the platform could signal trains to stop. In the Malbone Street case, signals to stop at Consumer's Park were made both by passengers on the doomed train and by people on the platform.
The Greyhound stops still do have flags that you can set if you want the bus to stop.
Mostly now the driver calls ahead (if it is a manned stop, such as at the local C-Store) to see if somebody is waiting, and if not, they don't even get of of the freeway.
Elias
Out our way, the bus does the route - if nobody's there it just keeps going.
But flag-stoppage is kind of a surprise for intercity and running "hot" is no crime.
Hmmm. I don't have my copy of Brian Cudahy's book handy, but it is my distinct recollection that Luciano's only proven mistake prior to the crash was not signalling the towerman at Franklin concerning the wrong lineup. Some passengers said afterwards that the train's speed on the Brooklyn Bridge downgrade seemed excessive, but that was probably just faulty recollection influenced by the crash. He apparently did not realize that he was supposed to stop at Consumer's Park, it wasn't that he couldn't stop. And let us not forget that the train's speed at the time of the crash would not have been excessive had it not been for the recent track realignment.
At trial he testified that he tried to slacken the train's speed, but it wasn't responding, but this was a cover story. The physical evidence showed he never tried to slow the train, and it was in perfect mechanical condition.
I think that Luciano just lost the ability to control the train. It could have happened at several points that day. It just happened at that point.
I don't think so. He never attempted to slow it. I've never heard any argument to the effect that he passed out, or became terrified and "froze", or anything of the nature. IOW, he not only didn't do anything effective to slow the train, he didn't do anything ineffective either.
Since the lead car's cab was largely intact, we can ASSUME that investigators first examined the position of the brake handle and valve on the left and, from what's been reported that he probably made no effort to APPLY, there's a missing piece that one would not expect reporters or lay persons to have followed as to what might have happened in those fateful last seconds.
And sadly, there'd be no EVIDENCE for certain as to what actually happened BECAUSE of the pair of trailers and the way they collapsed in the wreck. This would have certainly broken the airhoses and left the train BIE as a result with brake shoes applied. And I'd expect it would have been very difficult at the time to scientifically determine how many wheel revolutions occurred with brakes applied before the consist came to a full stop during the accident.
On the old BU's (as well as the Q cars), the controller was VERY different from what is used in more modern cars like the LoV's or arnines - it was more like an old Otis ELEVATOR control on the right hand side of the cab. At "rest" the control handle was straight up and in the vertical plane for operating, as opposed to the horizontal plane in which "modern" controllers work. You'd move it to the left (I think) to move in forward, the more you moved it from "top" the faster you went - and similarly the opposite direction would be "reverse."
When in motion, if you allowed the controller to return to the "top" position, you dumped the train and went BIE. In fact, operators would often run Q cars with a finger on the protrusion at the top in order to PREVENT the controller handle from rising up to the top position and dumping the train.
Since the BU's were straight air, it'd be the same braking to just let go of the controller as bothering to apply the brake. So unlike today's trains, the fastest way to stop a train would have been to just let go of the controller and let it "center up."
HOWEVER, there's ANOTHER angle with the old BU's and Q's ... when you APPLIED, you'd count to FIVE seconds before you'd feel the brake shoes setting up. This is MUCH longer a time than "modern" trains (arnines would take about 2-3 seconds which could seem like forever - this was more than TWICE as long).
So my guess is that as soon as Luciano spotted trouble, he probably DID let go of the controller and dumped the train. However, by the time the brakes actually APPLIED, the train had already careened around the curve with two trailers coupled and the dynamics of the air setting up and propagating (there was NO electric assist, so propagation time would ALSO be an additional delay factor) and the BIE probably resulted in the severity of the derailment.
The problem however would be that it'd be VERY difficult to tell if this was the scenario since the controller handle would have been vertical any way it was sliced. So I therefore wonder how they'd determine whether or not he did apply or just dump it. Factor in the five+ second delay before braking actually happened and it would certainly appear to those who don't know the characteristics of the old air brakes that no effort was made to stop the train. And when the shoes finally DID grab the wheels, WHAM. :(
But that's MY theory and I'm sticking to it. :)
Pennsy's MP-54 cars used a similar controller, and those cars ran until the late 1970's on the "Big Red Subway".
If the brakes were true "straight air" (common charged brake pipe) there would be a lag between the application and when the brakes on the trailers started to take hold.
The harzard of that type of air brake is that if the brake line is vented for any reason, you have no brake at all.
By 1918, the BU's were most likely equipped with a brake system that is similar to what we have today: vent the brake line, BIE!!!
I've also read that BRT practice was not to run two trailers coupled together, but with the strike, trains were made up with anything with wheels and brakes.
IF Mr. Peabody will loan us the WayBak Machine, we can play "You Are There" for real, and "See It Now". All the questions will be answered.
That answers my brake question.
Lap means "hold what you have". If you have nothing, lap holds nothing. If you made a brake application, lap will hold it until you either release or add brake.
Speaking of CSL/CTA 144, I was at IRM a number of years ago, and as a "visiting fireman" got to run it. I had just made the safety stop at the Olson Road crossing, got two from the Conductor, and took power. I had just cleared the crossing when three bells sounded. I shut off, took almost a full brake. Just as the wheels started to grab, I relased almost everything, and then took enough to to make a smooth, fast stop.
I turned around and saw both the Conductor and his student (a retired CTA man ) with big grins on their faces. The student (a 35 year man with CSL/CTA) said "I just wanted to see if these guys from Baltimore as as good as people say."
Makes you very happy when you can live up to the reputation you have.
But I'm quite sure that myself having to deal with *real* "straight air" would probably be every bit as amusing as me watching the SMEE guys trying to stop an arnine without landing out on the tracks in front of the train when she stopped. (grin)
It's rewarding and somewhat scary.
I've wound up running on railroads I've never been on. Either I'm damn good, or the street railway gods are watching over me. It's happened at Branford, Wharehouse Point, Seashore, IRM, Arden, SEPTA, Shaker Rapid, and heaven knows how many other places. Other folks have had handles "thrown at them" at Orange Empire and New Orleans.
It's very fortunate that I've never screwed up anywhere, and neither has anyone else from BSM. I have been behind a lot of controllers and in a lot of operator's seats and I "done good".
It's good for the "rep" and the legend keeps growing.
Hope the regeme change happens and we get a real economy back so you can journey down our way next February.
The summary of the findings was that the running gear was normal and in good condition, the brakes were not set and not in BIE, and the controllers on all cars (save one, IIRC) were in the Coney Island (forward) position, indicating no attempt to reverse the train. The car that had controllers in Park Row position (reverse) was traced to damage from the impact.
As an interesting aside, the filaments in the circuit for the forward markers were found broken, explaining why the train had no markers at the critical Fulton-Franklin junction.
Although it's a prohibited practice TODAY, and heaven HELP you if you're in the cab and an incident should occur and they DON'T find the brake handle itself in emergency, the reality of yore was that it was FAR more efficient and quicker to just dump the deadman. It takes about a second to move the handle whereas letting go of the controller is much more instantaneous. Alas, lawyers determined that proper emergency handling is to rotate the brake valve instead. :(
Throwing the reverser doesn't always help - and in more "modern cars" the chances are FAR better that you'll either blow the motors or the breakers and have nothing at all. That's one of the things I can't fathom - even an idiot in the cab would at LEAST have let go of the controller handle and let nature take its course. I find it difficult to believe that didn't occur at least ...
Which is why I tend to think Luciano thought he was making a straight run into Prospect Park. In those days he would have been able to see the lights of the station through the double-track tunnel. Were you ever in the M/M cab coming into the single-track wreck tunnel? You can't see it until you're right on top of it.
Though some passengers told colorful stories of a wild ride, others testified that there wasn't anything very remarkable about that downhill ride at all. I especially recall one person who said that the train was moving along at an even pace until suddenly they were in the tunnel and all hell broke loose.
I'd tend to agree with you as to the scenario - but still find it hard to believe that no action at all was taken, even in the last fateful second or two ... that's what I find difficult to swallow. It would seem from the "report" that he had it in power all the way to the end, and that's the hard part ...
I *meant* to the right ... dyslexia strikes again. :)
See ... THAT'S my strange basis here ... of COURSE there'd be evidence of a brake application, no matter *HOW* severe the wreck, the handle usually gets crushed in the position it was in when the cab gets squished like a grape (don't mind me, schoolcar again - you phuck up, ***BANG!*** you're ***DEAD*** ... they never let that angle go). Like high school students and the drunk driving films, schoolcar had films that showed you *HOW* squished your "remains" would be if you phucked up ... blood and gore and things in the teeth, Arlo Guthrie style. It worked ... made me a PUTHY in the cab. NO problem crawling up to the marker and losing 7 minutes on a trip being "careful" ... I've commented often before how I came into the system as a probie RIGHT after the Roosevelt wreck ... they was *NERTZ* in schoolcar about "THOU SHALT!" Heh.
I don't see (in THOSE cars) the failure to move the brake handle as a problem. You'd *LIKE* to ... but sometimes the "oh chit" factor is one of those nasty ... *****SURPRISE!***** events that most motorpeople who don't have the longtime yard-switching and other experiences that *I* lacked being shoed out in revenue without *ANY* real yard work beyond schoolcar. I was one of those "OK, you're good enough for revenue, you get a split shift - upside is you don't sit the board." I *took* it. STUPID, stupid me ... I shoulda HAD some yard time. But at least no 12-9's and no close calls since I worked the rush ONLY.
The RULES state "you'd BETTER have your brake handle at emergency when supervision arrives" but I would have expected "Luciano" (I still doubt that was his real name) with his inexperience to at LEAST do what comes naturally in an "oh chit" ... you let go of the handle. Those handles would spring-return to top dead center and DUMP ... granted, 5 second delay as I'd explained before ... no need to move the handles on (GO AWAY, MR LAWRENCE, LEAVE ME ALONE DAMMIT! heh) "straight air" ... pulling the handle is as good as "letting go" ... and *NO* better ...
Wanna stop a standard, an arnine, a Qcar, a BU? Let go of your "go handle" ... PSSSSCCCCCHHHHH! Skreek. Same for SMEEs and the latters. That's the ONE angle I don't get, would LOVE to see some of the raw data if it's available. Coverups by the way were rampant back in the days of the BRT ... and while BRTco insists that the cars were in good order, one would also compare their "honesty" to the BS numbers invented by the MTA as just one example. I can't see the benefit in a company examining their own in the days when Hylan could declare, "wooden cars?" and blaming themselves. Some things never change.
The ABSENCE of indication that the emergency valve (from the stand) is a GLARING anomoly ... there SHOULD have at least been (if the examination was real and Luciano DIDN'T APPLY) a record that the emergency trip on the controller had been let go. Even *IF* Luciano hadn't let go, he would have had to let go AFTER the wreck and forensics of that time could have ascertained if the emergency valve had vented BEFORE or after the wreck ...
THIS is my own uncertainty ... it don't make sense, but I freely admit I'm probably missing plenty in the absence of the report. But it bothers me just the same ... they COULD have told if Luciano dumped, or the wreck dumped ...
That's the reason for the "RULE OF THUMB" ... if you didn't want "premature matriculation" then you'd put your THUMB between the vertical handle and that "teat" up on top. As long as you didn't allow the control handle to go top dead center, all was cool ... if it went straight up though ... ssssshhhhhh ... (sorry, not your loud "CHOW!" dump of today but trust me, the shoes were indeed headed for the rim shot) ... THAT'S what I don't get ... no sign? Ummm ... as is the case today in political realms, "beware of floating rocks" ...
In the picture I provided, unless you're a motorman or know a locomotive airbrake, one might MISS where the handle goes in the brakepipe on the left of the picture ... but like the "reversed stands" of a BRT/BMT car, STANDARD railroads have a similar layout ... handles backwards from current TWU ... but the saving grace in the old buzzards was that you didn't have dynamics, you didn't have anything else but air. Dropping the controller rather than trying a "full serve" was *NO* different from one another. "Trainmen" were taught back then to "just let go" and use "technology" in an emergency. It was there, USE it. Different mindset, different time ...
But to ME, the question is ... did he even TRY to stop? triplevalves not withstanding, I can't believe someone seeing a dogleg and just not letting go is just astounding. I'm not denying the possibility of "he just froze" ... but before I personally "judge" ("judge though not lest YE be judged") Luciano, I'd hate to think that he'd not at LEAST let go of the controller. :(
Who said he was even looking out the window?
If he *THOUGHT* it was still a straight shot, and from what you guys have said about all of a sudden its being right there... A moment's distraction is all it would take. I mean, you all drive cars, can you tell me that you never look down to a map, radio control, heater switch, lamp switch, or your bottle of soda pop?
OK, so he *was* new at this, there are still a lot of other stimuli in the cab, the eyes cannot always be on the track, and even if they are, it is quite impossible to keep the mind there even if you are looking that way.
Elias
Just pointing out that the "setback" really didn't make much of a difference and the view was probably better than anything pounding the rails today.
Onec you get to know your line and memorize all of your signals and such, then a little less attention is required. OH CHIT! Somebody on the tracks! (didn't see that coming?) ... I can tell ya though, running rails is VERY different from driving a car, and at least when you're new at it, you do tend to pay more attention to your iron. I'd expect Luciano was the same, and even more focused because he was still trying to get used to making a good stop. Mentally diverted perhaps, running through his mind how to do it properly and worrying about the schedule. But when you're new, the iron does grab your attention.
Selkirk, you WORK at Selkirk? Wow. I was there for a tour in Sept 2001 with the PC Hist Socy. Really enjoyed it. Were you there then?
Luciano survived uninjured, left the scene, and was apprehended at the yards a few hours later. He was tried for manslaughter, along with some BRT supervisors, but was not convicted (I don't remember if he was acquitted or the charges were dropped). Luciano left the BRT soon after, moved away from NYC, and basically dropped out of sight.
Correct - and the influx of injured people from the wreck was especially hard for Brooklyn hospitals to handle because they already were crowded with flu victims.
As you probably know, it's been said that the recent death of Luciano's daughter may have indirectly caused the wreck, by causing him to be distracted from his duties. I just don't see any connection. As far as I'm concerned, all the evidence shows that Luciano operated the train in a reasonably competent manner; he simply didn't know about the recent realignment at Malbone.
The only EMPLOYED railroading I did was just less than a year with the Transit Authority. There's nothing like some real railroading to cure the foamies for good. Heh. My connection with Selkirk is that I live in Voorheesville which of course is where most of the railroad employees live. Got hundreds of friends who work Selkirk, and when it was CONRAIL, used to get cab rides and hang out in the yards with some of them - even got a good amount of handle time when running light and would often ride out to Syracuse or Cleveland and back with friends along for the ride.
Conrail was pretty good about issuing "cab tickets" to people who could be trusted not to get in the way - and having friends who were dispatchers also helped when the mood striuck to go for a ride. Only thing I wasn't permitted was handle time in the hump yard itself - that can get tricky and dangerous. But out on the mainline, no problem.
Then came CSX ... I've only been on the property ONCE since 9/11, again thanks to friends in CSX' "police" who made the arrangements for me to come down with BigEdIRTmanL one afternoon - he wanted to see the operation. Needless to say, NOBODY gets on CSX property any longer.
Also have friends and neighbors who work for CPRail out of Kenwood yard (Albany) and Mechanicville as well as others who work Amtrak out of Rensselaer. Prior to 9/11, got cab rides there as well as free deadheads to keep a neighbor company for 12 hours - and again that all stopped after 9/11 ... I've NEVER set foot in a GE Genesis ...
But I thank the MTA for curing me of my childhood ambition of being a motorman or railroad engineer. :)
You said it, boss!!!
Funny Baltimore story re: CSX. The CSX main line to Philadelphia (Ex-Baltimore & Ohio) passes right over the BSM property.
A while ago, several fans were on BSM's property, snapping pics of the CSX GE's passing overhead.
A short while later, a black sedan stopped on Falls Road, and a uniformed man got out, entered our property and began harassing the fans about the photography.
One of our people quietly went into our Visitor Center, called 911, and shortly two Baltimore City Police cars, sirens wailing and lights flashing, pulled into the our parking lot.
The City cops told the CSX Cop to leave or be arrested for trespassing on our (BSM) property.
The CSX cop got in his car and left. The fans went back to taking photos.
I understand that I won't have to worry about falling through the floor anymore.
BIE applies only the AIR BRAKES, Full Service applies the Dynamic Brakes too, and usually will make better use (control) of the air system as well.
Set the brakes and jump.
Well, ok on a subway car, I guess you set full brakes, bolt the cab, dive for the floor, and hope for the best. Sure you'll panic the geese, but at least (maybe) you'll still be alive to help the survivers. You ain't going to help anybody when you are squished flat in your cab, impaled by an I beam.
Elias
But yeah, a full serve beats a BIE given the extra "drag" of having your motors turn into generators into a dead frigging short goes (although I'm sure the car manuals dictate "Bethpage" as the dissipation standard) ...
But back in MY arnine days, and all that preceded the "heritage" that I *chose* to take out so fellow TWU brothers and sisters would be forced to not ONLY deal with the geese, but also press a "push to talk" button and SPEAK ... heh. Like your own scribancy at a computer, ridding you of the minutae of proquills, t'was MUCH easier back then with the arnines ... deal with the train, SCROO the geese. :)
But back in the days of the old gals, there weren't any dynamics, and a BIE back in those days beat dynamics by QUITE a few pounds of force. BIE *used* to be MUCH faster than full-serve - an item I've gotten in trouble with here before with current day rail-pounders. And they're ***RIGHT*** ... TODAY, pulling handle better than dumping train. Didn't USED TO BE. :(
Ah, we are of the same mind, Selkoik! (Not sure that's a compliment)
Hylan went on about WOODEN CARS, but the R62s at least, don't seem any more structurally sound, and maybe less so...
At one time on NYCT, that was true. My understanding is no longer is true.
David
People don't always react instantaneously to an emergency situation. Luciano may have frozen up for a secopnd or two before he went for the brakes. And by then, of course, it was too late.
Yes, he could have frozen - but the DESIGN of the controller is such that if you were to lose attention span, it'd want to return top dead center unless your thumb was on the top to stop it. Even then, the sudden stop of a train "wedging" would have caused the thumb to slip and the inevitable dump to occur. (CHOW! as they say today) What *I* don't get is that there was no sign that at least he'd let go of the controller. THAT is what convinces me that the company wanted to point a finger so it wasn't *THEIR* fault (two trailers together? nah ... wooden cars? Nah ... we screwed our employees and they walked out? nah ... unqualified people running a railroad as "strikebreakers?" Nah ... seems so ... well ... republican) but rather, someone else's ... *SO* fitting of that era of "uhmerica" ...
ANY brake application on BU cars ... intentional or emergency take between 5-6 seconds before the shoes hit the wheels ... that can be a *LONG* time even IF the brakes were applied ... thus my own little "how did the MM screw up?" :(
Sure... the pax were probly not aware of the track change, and its implication on what speed the new apporach would require.
Elias
If there even were many such photos. I recall reading in Brian Cudahy's book that the removal of bodies was almost completed before midnight. Not really much of an oppirtunity to take pictures.
While he may have had no other option, it strikes me as an extraordinarily dangerous practice. Was it a common or even occasional procedure or occurence on the BRT??
According to Brian Cudahy's book, Luciano handled the re-routing properly, following correct operating practice at all times during the process. In fact, his ability to handle the situation suggests that the wreck was caused by his not knowing about the new routing at Malbone, rather than by his inability to operate the train properly.
With what had happened that day because of the strike, I wonder how many other employes were pressed into service as motormen that day?
It's also been speculated that the recent death of his daughter may have left Luciano distracted and inattentive. No one will ever know for sure, of course, but I believe that the crash was caused by Luciano's unfamiliarity with the route, not by any deficiency in his train operation.
Any moron can make a train GO ... it takes skill to STOP one properly and as I recall, he had a good deal of difficulty and overshot or nearly overshot a few stops. I'd say he was not competent for the duty he pulled. Regardless of the circumstances, he should not have been in that cab, especially on that route.
http://www.bmt-lines.com/towerinst.pdf
It *is* a revenue track, and two revenue trains use it daily (when the put in or take out one of the two FS units) If you know the schedule you can ride that train through that place.
Elias
But yes, in addition to that occurance, non-revenues happen often. And from time to time, pax have been hauled in that way on a consist going out of service. Been confirmed by folks that work the line ... it's true ... just rare. :)
Message never got to me, they waited and then did it AFTER we'd rode down to Prospect. It was sitting there on the platform (me unaware of its purpose) and HeyPaul, BMTman, Newkirk and a few others noted its presence there and we all shrugged our shoulders and said "wow, that'd be neat riding THROUGH there" ... our limousine awaited and we had no idea. :)
But the person who set that up was also the person who got me some handle time on 8101-8108 before "acceptance" in testing as well as my "open the door, go ahead" checkout of the 143's. And I asked about the Frankie and was told, "maybe 3-4 times a week." I've been told more recently that the "spare" gets laid up there too. But my last experience was the only one I had with the line, there definitely WAS a train on the platform there and I've been told it's rare, but not unusual - usually associated with a layup or a swapout for the "monthly visitor" as the ladies would call it. ;)
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
R-32s have sexes?
http://www.crisny.org/not-for-profit/railroad/se_2.htm
If you're into the "angle of the dangle" and serious humping, Selkirk's mootown farm *is* the place to be. Hee-hee. :)
Oh... That's not SubTalk's problem.
That is a problem with your equipment!
Just get one of those 60" wide monitors, and you will be all fixed.
Truthfully... it is your browser that is the ultimate arbitor of how a particular page is to be displayed. All SubTalk does is to indent each reply.
I have dual monitors, and I can set Netscape to occupy both of them if necessary. Then it looks just fine.
Bottom line: It is an issue that you cannot get away from.
Elias
And what screen resolutions do these computers have? The standard 15" monitor is usually set for 800 pixels, my 17" monitor is set for 1024 pixels.
Try setting a monitor to 1600 pixels, you might not be able to read the type becuase it will be so small, but you will see that many more of those posts will be on the screen.
And I don't recall seeing it on any other message board.
And just what other message board gets as much traffic as this one? (sic)
Besides, I never look at those posts all the way out there, because by the time they get out there, they are usually way off topic anyway. : )
Elias
Thank's for a brilliant suggestion. ;=D
Seriously, there are boards that display message followups in a similar way but they don't shimmy and scrunch.
It is your browser that is doing that. If you had a bigger screen it would not do that. That is the nature of HTML text. If the text was displayed as a gif or in a table with a fixed pixel size that would not permit your browser to truncate it, then your browser would put a scroll bar at the bottom, and would allow you to keep going east until you reach the Atlantic Ocean.
It is the nature of HTML browsers.
Here, look at this line, I will make it as a single word, your browser will be unable to break it and it will force a scroll bar at the bottom of your screen:
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
: ) Elias
Sorry to bother you, but what's that link again?
http://subways2020.tripod.com/
I really have to do some more work on it, but I have several other projects running at the same time, and as a hobby project, that one takes back seat.
But I will get to it with some better navigation and more content.
My "Subway Photos" will be different thatn what others have done.
Elias
He's in "hog heaven" now that his beloved Sea Beach is back on the Bridge where God (and the BMT) willed it.
W Broadway Local
W Broadway Local
Astoria & City Hall
The worse is definitely the Steinway. Besides, the MTA only makes themselves more incriminating after the news articles over the storage of oil near them...
PS: How's school coming?
I noticed new signals in the folowing places:
Bergen UL, approx at the C/R's position N/B.
Canal St IND, N/B local track. Near the end of the station. Looks like they're installing new WD's, cuz these signals are very short.
All signals still covered in wrapping.
The new Singals inside Canal are regule three color ones. They are putting them in so a North Bound E can enter the station while a C crosses in front. Right now a E train has to stay out of the station untill the C clears the switch. There new signal will have a station timer on them this way the train can be beought in at a slow speed.
Also has anyone nowest that some of the signals head look like they have LED inside now. The way they look to me as I pass them in there iside a squire headed mount.
Robert
#3 West End Jeff
It was fun though!
--Mark
Same here, although I wasn't a railfan at the time and therefore probably didn't get quite as much enjoyment from the experience as I would now.
#3 West End Jeff
blurb in Wednesday's NY Post
A schedule of upcoming centennial events is available at www.mta.info mentioned in blurb
If a schedule of some sort is announced you can be sure it will get posted here.
They were the Transit Museum's Arnines returning to Court Street,
with a brief stop off for the Centennial MetroCard ceremony at
59th\Columbus Circle.
8 > ) Sparky
Where would they find surplus equipment that runs on catenary and third rail ?
Bill "Newkirk"
At maybe 6-7 million per locomotive and less than $900,000 a push-pull car (using the Comet V purchase by NJT as an example), 109 seats per Cab Car, 111 seats per toilet equipped trailer car, and 117 seats per trailer. A 42%-7%-51% split between Cab Cars, Toilet Equipped Trailers, and Non-Toilet Equipped Trailers is the breakdown NJT used in buying the Comet 5. 18 cars would fit 2036 people, in a 8 Cab Car, 1 toilet-equipped car, and 9 non-toilet equipped trailers, at an approximate cost of 16.2 million dollars, or $7956 per seat. If four or five ALP46s modified to run on 3rd rail at a cost of $7 million per locomotive are thrown in, then the cost rises to 44.2 or 51.2 million dollars, which would work out to $21,709 or $25,147.34 per seat.
If we call it $300,000 per car (a complete Wild Ass Guess) for the Mafersas from VRE, with 113 pax per car and 25 cars purchased. Then MN would get 2825 seats at a cost of 7,500,000 dollars, or a mere $2,654.87 per seat. With the same 4 or 5 dual-system locos tossed in, it'd be a total cost of 35.5 or 42.5 million dollars. However, those coaches are limited to 80mph, are getting rather old, and would have to be replaced in a relatively short time.
Of course those Dual-System locos would serve the same purpose as a P32 purchase, they'd allow the reassigning of P32s currently running diesel express service on the NH line (if any). Their order would have distinct advantages over buying new P32DM-ACs, since they'd also allow the purchase of M8s to be forestalled. Whereas the P32 purchase would be a stopgap solution, until the M8s, vehicles more suited to the NH line, could be designed, purchased and delivered, the Dual-System electrics would have pretty crappy acceleration on 3rd rail, but would offer MU-like performance under the wire. The P32's performance on the other hand would be universally bad, they're underpowered and would likely not be able to keep schedules on the local sections of the line they are working. Since expresses skip most of the stations on the 3rd rail anyway, the acceleration of an dual-system electric on the rail would be largely a non-issue anyway, whereas P32s will be forced to make some local stops on the NEC out past Stamford, where the electric locos could shine, the P32s will merely smoke and choke. That is of course unless the P32s are supposed to run full-line expresses GCT to NHV, but there would seem to be little point in ignoring all the enroute ridership so that a diesel can keep schedules on an electric route.
Compared to a potential M8 purchase, the ALP46 still comes out looking relatively intact. If we assume the M8 will be designed off the M7 (which to me seems logical), then it'd hold 104 people in a toilet car, and 113 in a non-toilet equipped car. With a 50/50 toilet/non-toilet mixture, you'd need 20 cars minimum for 2000 seats (actually it'd be 2170) with a M8 purchase, at a cost, assuming 2-3 (another WAG) million for new MUs, of $40-60 million, or $18,433.18 or $27,649.77 per seat (40 or 60 million dollars divided by 2170 seats). Of course the MUs have to be maintained more than a push-pull fleet, so they'd be down for maitenance more often, and would also be enormously heavy. The M7 weighs some 130,000lbs, and that's without a transformer or the dual-system equipment, which could add 20,000-30,000lbs, you could easily end up with a M8 weighing 80 tons, or roughly 75% as much as a ALP46 weighs anyway.
I guess I'm just confused why MN and CDoT would want to run P32s under exsisting wires when there's clearly an alternative, I know I am not the first and only person to propose this. Also I'm confused why they haven't considered electric-hauled push-pull sets for their express trains, where the MU's acceleration is not an issue. I'm not against the eventual purchase of M8s, I just question why so long a route with so many expresses needs the assistance of MUs when it's running at full speed for much of the run. Of course I definitely question the wisdom of buying more P32s, especially to be run under the wire, that makes very little sense and is a gross waste of infrastructure, electric locomotives with a slightly higher purchase price, but lower maitnenance and fuel costs would do quicker and more efficiently.
Any comments?
(BTW: anyone know a hard figure for the M7 and P32 per-unit purchase costs, or have a possible figure for the M8?)
-- Ed Sachs
The R-27 door motors made a "whirring" sound when they opened and closed. The R-30's were quieter and faster on opening and closing.
Bill "Newkirk"
Not exactly larger, but the R-27 escutcheons were flared like the R-26 and R-28's. The R-30 escutcheons were straight, like the R-32 thru R-42's.
Bill "Newkirk"
That was me, did you remember a "whirring" sound too ?
Bill "Newkirk"
At least those are the same "class of cars", the R27 and R20 were complete differnt classes. I'm hoping that the R160's will be a bit different from the R143's so I don't have to refer to them as the "R143-160's" in the future.
2. $60 million would buy maybe 30 cars. Where's the funding for the other 1,970 cars?
David
David
The article does state, "The deal would allow the state to buy 20 new rail cars and one or two locomotives." Referring to them as "2,000 railcar seats" seems like a new low in wowing the readership with big numbers.
Enjoy!
---Sir Ronald of McDonald
Peace,
ANDEE
The R-68A's should be called "the flying filth" !
Bill "Newkirk"
It's nice to see an R-68a on the B train after sooooo many years.
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
Heh, I didn't even think of that. Hmmmm, that would be a great riding and/or photo taking opportunity. Thanks.
Brian, the B is running below 34th st for over 10 days now. Anything that is signed as a B, from R32 to R110B will run on the Brighton Line. :-D
I don't understand what you are talking about.
It will stay open.
1) It is a much more important transportation center.
2) The RNC is not the same sort of political target as the DNC
?) WHAT? WHY? People with agneda *can* help shape the Democratic platform. Ain't NOTHING that they can do or say will help to shape the Republican platform. Either you believe in the Republican Agenda, and trust them to Do-What-Is-Right (far right???) or you vote for the Democrats. Sure there will be a whole passle of protesters, but they are after TV coverage and Anarchism rather than legitimate political change *in* the Republican Party. They will probally want to be as close to the convention as possible (Javitts Center, right?) rather than some remote location such as MSG.
Even so, back in the 80's the convention *was* at MSG, and they did not close down NYP.
Elias
No one thought anything would happen in NYC, until on 2/26/1993, that date in history changed the course on what we think about our security.
It would be much easier to evacuate the entire city and relocate every non-conventioneer to Worcester for the week.
Mark
Or, here’s an idea: rent out the Senate building over the summer to each of the parties. All the security you could want and none of the hassle for the rest of us!
That's odd, all the big names that are at the conventions are within a few acres space on and around Capitol Hill most of the rest of the year, and no one feels the need to shut down the DC Metro or Union Station...
Mark
An investigation is being launched by different city agencies on whether a serious communication breakdown contributed to the West 4th St. incident last Sunday evening.
The T/O reports to control what he saw, which is by itself subject to his own intrpretation of what he saw. Several more T/Os made similar reports to control. Obviously the could not have all said exactly the same thing, but it was clear that there was a problem there.
Control makes requests to the Police Department, but those reports are necessairily subject to Control's own understanding of the situation, and by giving a station name "Broadway Laffayette" as well as "Go To West 4th Stret" it makes for confusion.
Let me tell you, LEC in Dickinson is never very clear on where they want me to go on a ambulance run, why should NYPD despatch be any diferent. (That I am dyslexic with numbers and directions does not help matters, but then I usually do not drive the ambulance myself... My job is patients not vehicles.)
A TA supervisor should have been despatched to the scene together with the police, ought to have gotten there first, and could then direct officers as the situation warrants.
Elias
There is always a TSS or other RTO Supervisor in a particular tower, at the south end of the 6th Ave LL of West 4th St, which was less than 100 feet from the scene of the crime. So what happened?
Enjoy!
Suggestion: Can you increas the size of the frames by say 5-10 pixels? I am having trouble fitting each destination in the frame. The images scroll is too sensitive, at least on my browser.
In which direction?
What's your screen resolution? It works best at 1024 * 768.
[The images scroll is too sensitive, at least on my browser.]
Try it now.
My rez is 1280x960
Scroll works great now, thank you.
1. Your browser. I recommend that you use Microsoft Internet Explorer 5 or higher (with minimal toolbars).
2. Your operating system. I've designed it with the Windows PC in mind. I tried to call it up in a Mac just before I posted this, but I've exceeded the bandwidth limit. I'll try some other time. I know the GUI's of these OS's are different, so the GUI of a particular OS (or browser, for that matter) might not allow to view the page as I intended.
3. The page design. I've designed the frames so that each rollsign reading shows up in a 450 * 80 frame, with images at 400*80 and 360*80. The rollsigns in the interior (left) view don't match up because they're designed for a smaller window, which I don't know how to code in HTML, (at least without tearing the whole frameset apart and rebuilding it).
I'll see what I can do in terms of that, if it indeed is #3.
We always see the shots from the platform, like this:
But after some net searching, I couldn't find much showing the wonderful monstrosity that this station is, so I went down to street level and got some pics like this:
I have more pics here. The album is a compilation of Sunday's and photos from a previous visit.
It's a work in progress; while on the street, a guy started following me around and that took away the party atmosphere and comfort level for me. I'll go back soon, but in the meantime enjoy the pics.
Your pal,
Fred
PS Thanks to all for putting me to the wise about posting pics and links here.
Amen. We have to preserve our great heritage of empty, rubble-strewn lots.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Empty beer cans and a brandy bottle - in a mess room which, presumably, only employees can enter - don't constitute "evidence"? Did I just wake up on another planet?
Drunk Maintenance Workers on Underground
all over the front page!
Now, it is entirely possible that the people concerned imbibed their adult beverages after their shifts, but 100 bottles for 7 people does look a bit extreme!
Most Sun readers would be too interested in Page 3 to take notice of the headline :)
Either:
1) rather more than seven people were involved
or:
2) these cans accumulated over quite some time
- An L train signed up, "TO ATLANTIC AV," followed by another L train signed, "TO BWAY JUNCTION."
- New canopies being installed at the north end of the 74th Street/Broadway station on the 7 line.
Discuss away!
Are they going to take down the existing canopy and rebuild it? As they have done in renovations to Broadway Elevated stations?
My Pic
Wow, but I will admit, he defintly must have the better camera.
Your Pal,
Fred
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
John
Digital or film ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Click here to see the album, which is on Webshots.
The wonderful thing about San Francisco's system is that it's the best way to get anywhere in the city, so even if you're not travelling with non-railfans, you'll still get lots of riding in because whatever your non-railfan companions want to do usually requires a train ride.
Mark
In about 50 years, we'll be wondering why we ever stopped running the PCC's since all of them will have historical value.
Maybe Newark just needed more tourists...
Mark
How does SFMuni keep them going? It's not easy, parts support is only one of the problems, you can get alot of things. Finding people skilled in fooling with them to keep them in service is another.
Mark
I've had some photos sitting around here submitted by people that I haven't put on the site because I lost the email that they came in, with the photographers name. Basically I have the JPG's, and sometimes some caption data, but no photographer names. I figure I'll never figure out whose work they are if I don't post them and let the photographer claim them. Sorry about that, submitters!
These first three were submitted by someone named Mike..
28619
28620
28621
Don't know this one...
28624
And these last bunch were submitted by someone who edited them using THE GIMP and were originally called "djXXXXX.jpg" if that helps.
28625
28626
28627
28628
28629
28630
28631
28632
28633
28634
28635
If anyone knows the locations of the artworks in those last few please let me know that, too.
Sorry guys. There may be a few more coming up.
That would be Greenberger.
The last one is immediately south of the N. Conduit station.
As for exact dates, the first few were on 6/8/03, the Q at Bay Parkway was on 6/9/03, and the rest were on 6/11/03.
I honestly don't remember sending you those photos, but since you somehow got your hands on them, enjoy.
Quoting from The New York Subway: Its Construction And Equipment:
"At each station there is a down grade of 2.1 per cent, to assist in the acceleration of the cars when they start. In order to make time on roads running trains at frequent intervals, it is necessary to bring the trains to their full speed very soon after starting. The electrical equipment of the Rapid Transit Railroad will enable this to be done in a better manner than is possible with steam locomotives, while these short acceleration grades at each station, on both up and down tracks, will be of material assistance in making the starts smooth.
Photograph on page 26 shows an interesting feature at a local station, where, in order to obtain the quick acceleration in grade for local trains, and at the same time maintain a level grade for the express service, the tracks are constructed at a different level. This occurs at many local stations."
What follows is what the book refers to as the "Photograph on page 26."
Houston Street, 33rd Street, 79th Street, 86th Street (Broadway), 91st Street.
If you haven't did any research go here.
"When deep sections of the London Underground were being constructed, the track at the stations was built at a higher level than the track between the stations. Trains leaving a station travel downhill, which reduces rolling friction and increases acceleration. Conversely, trains approaching a station can be decelerated by running up a slope, thereby reducing brake wear. This system is obviously ideal when trains stop at every station and was easy to construct while tunnelling was being carried out. Of course, it would be impractical on surface lines."
Copy of e-mail sent out by TfL:
02 March 2004
Full Integrated Service on the Northern line
I am pleased to tell you that a full and integrated Northern line service will be restored from Sunday, 7 March.
The restoration of the integrated service means that trains will now follow the normal service pattern, which is:
* Edgware to Morden via Charing Cross AND Bank branches;
* High Barnet and Mill Hill East to Morden via Charing Cross AND Bank branches.
We understand that for a significant minority of passengers, the 'split' service has been a benefit, providing them with a regular service, with every train guaranteed to take them to and from their regular destinations. However, for the large number of passengers who have to change at an already congested Camden Town station, the return of a full integrated Northern line
service will be very welcome.
London Underground and Tube Lines have undertaken extensive engineering work to redesign the points at Camden Town and have carried out safety checks using the latest available technology.
The switchblade at Points 20B at Camden Town, which was found to be the main cause of the derailment, has been redesigned using sophisticated computer modelling techniques. The new design was manufactured at the Lillie Bridge
workshops.
Over the last three weeks, the performance of the new design has been thoroughly tested by London Underground running empty passenger trains at various speeds, up to and a little beyond the permitted speed limit of 15mph. All test runs have been completed in the Underground's Engineering Hours and the behaviour of train wheels passing over the new switchblade
design has been closely observed and monitored using special high-speed cameras on the trains and on the track. During these tests, the new switchblade has also been coated with a special paint to enable the exact path of the wheels to be traced.
All of the results have been closely analysed by a team of experts. Their conclusion is that the new switchblade design performed exactly as predicted and that it is safe for use at Camden Town.
In accordance with London Underground's Safety Case, the new design and associated testing procedures have been subject to our Safety Review and Change Control procedure.
Staff and trade unions were also advised prior to the decision to restore the full and integrated Northern line service.
My Public Affairs team can assist with any further queries you may have. Please contact them via email at David.Hurren@tube.tfl.gov.uk mailto:David.Hurren@tube.tfl.gov.uk or by phone on 020 7918 3524.
Kevin Hafter
General Manager Northern line
Anyway, I wanted to get to Bank returning home, so when the Archway train got into Camden Town, I left the train, made my way to the other Southbound platform, and got on the first train, all without looking at signs, destinations etc.
Next thing I know, we've stopped at Mornington Crescent. I had to leave the train at Euston (WE branch) and head over to the City branch platforms. Not the most user friendly interchange in the world.
So how could this have happened? Were a few trains slipping through that were not confined to the restricted service routes?
I'm one of those that hoped. The Northern Line is confusing for non-regular users. As Rail Blue pointed out in a recent thread about London's southern commuter railways, there is the "everywhere to everywhere" tradition which leads to services that are hard to understand, whereas the subway/metro/tube tradition is of having different separate "lines" that are each fairly easy to understand for the uninitiated.
It would have been better (in my opinion) to have made a virtue of necessity after the derailment, and split the Northern Line permanently into two "lines", one going Edgware-Camden Town-Bank- Kennington-Morden, the other High Barnet or Mill Hill East-Camden Town-Charing Cross-Kennington-Morden.
I'm not sure how they could have found two different shades of black for the map, though (8-)
Edgware--City--Morden (cross platform interchange at Euston for Victoria Line)
Hign Barnet--West End--Kennington/Morden (cross platform interchange to East Finchley for City destinations via Finsbury Park)
That way, only people at Archway, Tufnell Park, and Kentish Town would have to undergo the ordeal of Camden Town.
This all seems so sensible to me that one wonders whether even today a case could be made for relaiming the abandoned Northern Heights extensions. The GN suburban services don't really need the Finsbury Park-Moorgate, and when Thameslink 2000 gets started, they will probably abandon it except for a few rush hour journeys.
Perhaps not when Thameslink 2000 gets started, but who knows when that will be. Meanwhile I think GN needs Moorgate.
When I was up there in last August's heat I didn't find it was all that bad, and I'm not exactly what one could consider in all that great shape :-( Mind you, if I had to do it every day I might feel differently about it!
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.6 Coming Next Week!
Generally nice. Richmond is by far the nicest of the lot. Ealing is the worst of those, but it's a good area still by any standards.
Rail Blue: Generally nice. Richmond is by far the nicest of the lot. Ealing is the worst of those, but it's a good area still by any standards.
Shame on you, sir - Ealing is the Queen of Suburbs! And seriously, it is more upscale than Upminster.
Morden on the other hand was an impressive facility that looked to be in the middle of nowhere.
wayne
Sounds like High Barnet - after ascending the long exit ramp from the station, you're on a reasonably prosperous-looking high street. Uxbridge had an unusual arrangement; the station exit led out to a pedestrain-only street with what looked like some upscale shopping malls nearby (both had just closed when I got there, however).
Yes, and nowadays, unless you happen to live close to a station on the Wimbledon-Sutton line, it is usually faster to catch a bus to Morden tube station, which has frequent services to prime destinations, than use the roundabout route to Thameslink.
High Barnet station was built by the old Great Northern railway and is substantially unchanged since its conversion to a tube station over 60 years ago. Alan A. Jackson in his book 'London's Local Railways' conjures up an amusing image of corpulent City gents on frosty mornings, slipping and ending up their walk to the station sliding down that ramp on their backsides.
So the old Northern City line is only a part-time service. 10 TPH rush-hours, 6 TPH weekday middays, but no service on evenings and weekends. I suppose Kings Cross could handle the rush-hour load, but Moorgate is better for City folks.
Of course, when Moorgate trains were routed over the Ally Pally, Mill Hill and Barnet branches, there was a seventh platform at Finsbury Park.
With so many tracks, the layout must be really inept. I wonder what would become of that branch under Thameslink 2000.
Not to mention the fact that the area around Finsbury Park station is a real armpit :)
Of course you mean when they ran via the Widened Lines and Kings Cross.
If the Northern Line extensions had been completed after WW 2 there would have been two extra platforms at Finsbury Park . :-)
District Line
Extensions:
- Wimbledon dive-under to take over Sutton Loop
Services as present with trains terminating at Wimbledon extended to Sutton.
East London Line
To be renamed Outer Circle and operated by BR.
New stations on WLL:
- Battersea, Chelsea West, White City, North Kensington
New station on ELL/BR(S:SE):
- Deptford Park
Closure:
- New X
Services:
- New X Gate - ELL - NLL - WLL - Clapham Jc
- Stratford - NLL - WLL - SLL - London Bridge
- Stonebridge Park (DC) - WLL - SLL - ELL - Stratford
- Clapham Jc - SLL - ELL - NLL - Stonebridge Park (DC via Primrose Hill)
- Victoria - SLL - ELL - NLL - Richmond
Hammersmith & City Line
Extensions:
- from Paddington into new BIG tubes, curving to be aligned under Seymour St etc (Bond St, Oxford Circus, Goodge St, Russell Sq, Clerkenwell, Farringdon, Moorgate, Liverpool St), then rising to take over GER Local to Shenfield (re-electrified at 660V 4th rail)
Service:
- Hammersmith to Shenfield
Jubilee Line
Split!!! For London Bridge - West Ham see Shuttle.
Extensions:
- from Charing X under the Strand and Fleet St etc (Aldwych, Ludgate Circus, St Paul's, Moorgate, Shoreditch (ELL), Cambridge Heath, London Fields, Hackney Downs, Clapton) then rising to take over GER St James' St - Chingford
Service:
- Stanmore to Chingford, with short turns
Metropolitan Line
Pruning:
- Amersham and Chesham Branches transferred to BR
Extensions:
- Watford Branch re-routed via Croxley Green, Watford West, and Watford High St to Watford Jc
Services:
- Watford Semi Fast to Aldgate
- Uxbridge to Whitechapel or Barking
Northern Line
Extensions:
- Edgware Branch extended (Edgwarebury, Elstree South, Aldenham, Bushey Meads, Bushey Hall, Watford High St)
- Mill Hill Branch extended (Copt Hall, Mill Hill (Hale), Edgware)
- Alexandra Palace Branch reopened (Highgate, Cranley Gardens, Muswell Hill, Alexandra Palace)
- Connection to Moorgate Line (Finsbury Park, Stroud Green, Crouch End, Highgate)
- Branch from Archway (Stroud Green - interchange with line to Moorgate), rising to replace Gospel Oak - Barking Line.
- South Kentish Town reopened
- New interchange station with Thameslink at Hendon North
- New tubes from Charing X Branch at Kennington (Angell Town, Brixton, South Brixton, Streatham Place, Streatham Hill, Streatham), rising to take over LBSCR Wimbledon Line (Tooting renamed Tooting East, new interchange station with Bank Branch at Tooting South)
- Extension from Morden to South Morden
- Extension from Moorgate (Northern City) to Bank (Drain), new station at Blackfriars, then curving into the Jubilee Line station at Waterloo, thence to Westminster, then as a new tube line (Victoria, Sloane Sq, Chelsea, Chelsea West (interchange to WLL), Fulham Broadway, Fulham West, Castelnau, Barnes Bridge, Mortlake), then rising to run alongside LSWR (North Sheen, Richmond), then further new tubes (Petersham, Ham, Kingston North (Fernhill Gdns), Kingston (Wood St), Kingston South (County Hall), Surbiton)
Services:
- Surbiton to Watford High St via Finsbury Park and Mill Hill
- Surbiton to Alexandra Palace via Finsbury Park
- Morden South to Edgware via Bank and Euston
- Morden South to Barking via Bank and Euston
- Wimbledon to Watford High St via Charing Cross
- Wimbledon to High Barnet via Charing Cross
Shuttle
Replaces Jubilee Line between London Bridge and West Ham
DLR
The planned extensions, plus turing the Bank Line into a huge loop back to Stratford and Bow Church, a line to Thamesmead, and extending the Tower Gateway stub in the middle of Thames St then through the old tram tunnel to Holborn. Perhaps a new spine line on the South side of the Thames too.
Hammersmith to Shenfield looks a bit pointless. You are spending £££ to offer an improvement to Shenfield, much needed, but Hammersmith passengers already have a good service. Why not West Drayton/Greenford?
It's a bit convoluted, but it gives passengers on the Met Main Line and the District Wimbledon Branch better service by getting the H&C out of the way. What might be a good idea would be giving Ealing (and then Greenford) double the service it gets now and routing Richmond over the H&C.
It *is* better for City employees, but they are a declining proportion of commuters. I'd guess that there would be more hurrahs than complaints if the Welwyn and Hertford locals were diverted to Kings Cross at all times. But the Kings Cross suburban platforms haven't the capacity to run the peak-hour service.
Passengers on the Moorgate trains running down the old Northern City Line tubes get a cross-platform interchange on to the Victoria Line at Highbury and Islington. It would be interesting to go there in the rush hour, and see what proportion of them carry on to Moorgate and how many change on to the Victoria Line for the West End.
I think it is likely that if Thameslink 2000 happens, the old Northern City Line will close and all the Kings Cross suburban trains (inner and outer services) will go via the Thameslink line to south of the river. In that event, City-bound commuters, both from the Bedford-Luton direction and from the Great Northern routes, will have a choice of Farringdon, City Thameslink and Blackfriars for The City. All of these are on The City's western edge. Alternatively they will have to change at Farringdon for underground trains to Moorgate (Circle, Hammersmith and City or Metropolitan Lines). The Thameslink 2000 plan envisages closing off the junction that allows Thameslink trains from the north to turn left at Farringdon and run into the terminal platforms in Moorgate subsurface lines station (not to be confused with the old Northern City Line terminal platforms in the deep-tube part of the station!).
Welwyn and Hertford locals ... Kings Cross suburban platforms haven't the capacity to run the peak-hour service.
I don't think Thameslink 2000 would have room for those local trains either.
The plan was for 14 TPH (peak) on the St Pancras line and 10 TPH (peak) on the Kings Cross line.
The Thameslink 2000 map (http://www.networkrail.co.uk/Documents/thameslink2000_map.doc) shows that they do not plan to serve any stations between Finsbury Park and Potters Bar, and they do not plan to serve Hertford North. Their 10 TPH (peak) via Finsbury Park would go to more distant places, leaving the Welwyn and Hertford locals to the GN franchise.
I don't remember any discussion of that issue in report on the Thameslink 2000 hearings, whereas a tremendous stink was raised by the St Pancras to Moorgate (high level) crowd who would have to change at Farringdon. Which suggests that those local trains would continue to go to Moorgate (low level) rather than Kings Cross, at least on weekdays as at present.
Does anyone know what's become of #51722 and #52722, the two 95s which were damaged in the collision? Have they been sent for scrap or are they to be repaired?
wayne
enjoy
Linked for the LAZY
http://forums.railfan.net/forums.cgi?board=Safety;action=display;num=1077818593
Regards,
Jimmy
1/9: REGULAR: R62A
2: REGULAR: R142
3: REGULAR: R62A
4: REGULAR: R62, R142
5: REGULAR: R142
6: REGULAR: R142A
7: REGULAR: R62A
A: REGULAR: R38, R44
B: REGULAR: R40, R40M: OCCASIONAL: R42, R68A
C: REGULAR: R32, R38
D: REGULAR: R68
E: REGULAR: R32
F: REGULAR: R46: OCCASIONAL: R32
G: REGULAR: R46
J: REGULAR: R42
L: REGULAR: R143
M: REGULAR: R42
N: REGULAR: R68A: OCCASIONAL: R40
Q: REGULAR: R68A: OCCASIONAL: R68
R: REGULAR: R46: OCCASIONAL: R32
S (42 St): REGULAR: R62A
S (Franklin Ave): REGULAR: R68
S (Rockaway Park): REGULAR: R44
Z: REGULAR: R42
How do you define "occasional"? There are several sets of R-32's on the (F) and they run on the (F) every day. I would consider that regular.
My attempt is here. We seem to agree as far as I can tell except on the N.
1/9: R62A
2: R142
3: R62, R62A
4: R62, R142, R142A
5: R142
6: R142A
7: R62A
A: R32, R38, R44
B: R40/M, R42, R68/A
C: R32, R38
D: R68
E: R32, R46 rarely
F: R32, R46
G: R46
J: R42
L: R143
M: R42, R143 weekends
N: R40/M, R42, R68/A
Q: R68/A
R: R32, R46
S (42 St) R62A
S (Franklin Ave) R68
S (Rockaway Park) R44
V: R46
W: R40/M, R42
Z: R42
Note: R62's is becoming the dominant rolling stock on the 3.
Also:
L: R42, R143
N: R40/M, R42, R68/A
Q: R68/A
R: R32, R46
W: R40/M, R42
Better?
N: R40/M, R42, R68/A
Q: : R68/A
R: : R32, R46
W: : R40/M, R42
"Web-safe" colors have been a very moot point for many years, now. This is web-safe and it'll work in many places where the above won't.
<span style="color:#ffff00;background-color:#000000;"> yellow on black </span>
<span style="color:#000000;background-color:#ffff00;"> black on yellow </span>
Mark
A: R44, R38, 2 sets of R32's
B: R40, R40M, 1 set of R42's, 1 set of R68A's
C: R32, R38
D: R68
E: R32
F: R46, about 3 sets of R32's during off hours and weekends, 10 sets during rush hours
G: R46
J: R42
L: R143, about 2 sets of R42's that sneak their way on during Rush Hour
M: R42, 4-car R143's on weekends
N: R68A, R68, about one set of R40's weekedays, at least 5 sets (from the W) on weekends, with an occasional R40M
Q: R68, R68A
R: R46, R32(like one or 2 sets)
S(Franklin Ave): R68
S(Rockaway Park): R44
W: R40,R40M (about 50/50)
Mark
Regards,
Jimmy :^)
til next time
Now all we need is that elusive W R32 set...where is it?
wayne
til next time
Was that a reproduction of the original paint job or did someone just get creative?
http://images.nycsubway.org//i25000/img_25752.jpg
It's had a few since it first pounded the rails though - I'm pretty sure I've seen it in the aqua/white as well many many years ago.
Unca Kevin, I think you need to change your reading glasses.
Anyway - does anyone have an answer on the paint job on the floor of 1575?
Looks YUCKKY! But do in not recall that is had a similar appearerance once when they were new, perhaps with inlaid linoleum?
Somebody tell us, was this so???
Elias
-William A. Padron
["Fulton-East N.Y."]
I'll have to defer to others though since I wasn't around in the 1948 era ...
wayne
Bill "Newkirk"
I remember the diamond shapes on the R-10s and yes, no I reall that they were brass inlays and not linolium inlays.
I'll betcha that it was painted on the demo car rather than being built into the floor as per the production run.
Interesting.
Elias
And I was told that the yellow should have been gold.
I hope they update soon...
Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks
-Chris
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
put the url of the link where it says "url" and put your description where it says "NAME OF LINK"
My message lost the </a> when I went from preview to post.
Hope it works this time.
<*a href="http://www.yourwebsite.com/Directory/Filename.html"*>Put your caption here. <*/a*> (Delete the "*"s to make it work do not forget to include the quotes and the http:// part of the url.
You can reference a page on your Geocites site using this, but given the number of people here who will click on it you will easily go over tyou hourly bandwidth quota.
To make a link to a photograph use:
<*img src="http://www.yourwebsite.com/Images/Photoname.jpg"*> There is no closing (< /a >) tag with this one. You cannot reference images on free web sites, but it will work fine if you are paying for the site.
The photos that I post here are hosted on my own computer, which has a built in web server. Yours does too, if you are using Windows 2000 or Windows XP, but you do need to know how to use it and how to protect your computer and network from attacks. You also need to have a static IP number. Some Cable and DSL providers will not allow you to operate a server on your network... you'd need to pay a business price for this serivice. I *do* pay a business rate, plus a premium for the static IP number.
Elias
Here's an ordinary, non edited pic:
And here's the experimental retouching:
I like it, how about you?
Here are some other retouchings:
The last looks way too fake though because both trains at different distances are clear. It actually looks like a model train set with a backdrop.
John
:(
Now you just need to crop off the bottom 6th of the photo, so we don’t have to look at the garbage on the yellow walkway in the foreground and so the train will truly dominate the page!
CLICK HERE TO SEE THE MAP
Hehehehe..... NOPE.
Your first problem is that you want to link to an .html page. Geocities will not let you make outside links to .jpg .gif .etc files.
Second problem is a .bmp file is TOO BIG! It will take too long to download, and you will use up your hourly download limit with just one download. Use your graphics program to save it as a .gif (Use .jpg for photos and .gif for other kinds of graphics.
Third (hehehehehe.....) Dave does not host stuff like this, though if it is good he might. But that is up to him and it will take time.
Fourth: www.webmasters.com offers 750 MB of hosting space with many GB of bandwidth and 300 email address for 9.95 a month. : )
Elias
Here ya go (hope it works)
(PS-u might have to save and use MS Paint or something to zoom in and see its DETAIL.)
CLICK HERE
Thanks again
-Chris
Thank you
-Chris
BIG Map
-Chris
Also, the lower level Verrezzano would be more than enough (although I personally would cross the Bayonne with Path or the light rail -- Staten Island is really part of New Jersey and nobody told them). There would never be enough development on the north end of the island to justify a loop via tunnel AND bridge, given how far it is from Manhattan, in my opinion.
First off, I know the area around the Church Av/McDonald Av station well enough to say that there is NO 17th Avenue along a path that takes the G between Church/McDonald to 9th Av/39 St. I am assuming that at this point, the G is following the route of the Culver Shuttle. There was a stop at 13th Avenue, if you want to put it there.
Also, why the shuttle between the College of SI and the SI Mall? Why not just extend the T there?
Someone had an idea of taking a line to Co-op City, Why not send the 11 (new line) there?
Why the transfer between the Beach 67 St and Beach 90 Street stations? Why not just run a train between the two? That is a wye connection, so running a train between the stations is possible.
There's already a connection between the Flushing Line and the Queens Blvd line at 74th St, so why the extra one at 82nd?
All in all, a good attempt.
What is faster: walking or subway via Broad Channel?!
Check the track map to see what I mean.
e-mail me your e-mail address so I can send you .gif format... I was able to convert your .bmp into 163kb .gif format (without any image loss)
subwaymap@comcast.net
P.S. you might want to ask David Pirmann to consider adding this map on Fanasty Map page.
Great job on the map though. Where the hell is the SAS? :)
I imagine you're also trying to get out to the end tof the Jamaica line, but I don't know that doubling back with the H is going to give enough time advantage over a transfer. How about a new express line (like you did on the Flushing) that runs along the cemetery?
During the rush, if you live in brooklyn, only the 1/9, 6, & 7 trains have better headways.
None of those trains go to Brooklyn.
A few comments [I know it's a fantasy map 8-)]:
a) I would bring the N to Dyre instead of WP Road
b) How about some Co-op City service
c) On Queens Blvd I'll assume that the extra tracks are built.
d) The SAS is not there
e) How about a Hillside extension
But I say keep up the good work!
I do agree that a connection should be made between the Queens "A" and "J/Z" terminals. They can't be too far apart.
Keep up the good work.
Regards,
Jimmy
What else . . . the N and W running on the 2 and 5? Are you presuming that the White Plains Road line will be converted to BMT/IND along with the Lex Ave Line?
L on restored Pitkin Avenue el to Van Siclen, but no re-extension to Canarsie Pier? How about sending the L west under the Hudson River to Hoboken Terminal, too . . . ?
Could use a Sea Beach Express. Put the J on there instead of the M on the West End Line.
SI: You figured out the logistics of a cross-harbor tunnel? That may spell the end of the SI Ferry. And why new shuttle trains on SI? Shuttle trains are leftovers of old main lines, such as the Franklin Avenue Shuttle (which branched off the Fulton Street El, which I see you covered with your Brighton Beach Line "C" Train) and the Times Square Shuttle (part of the original IRT line). Why no Victory Boulevard Line? Why no cross-Arthur Kill tunnel to send the SIR to Perth Amboy to connect with NJ Transit? Also, looks like you have your Richmond Avenue Line going via the North Shore Line for part of the way . . . no service to Mariners Harbor?
Also a fav of mine, the Myrtle Avenue Line; bring that back as a cut-cover (hang the NIMBYs). The M continuing on the Broadway Line is not a good thing. Old Myrtle Ave line into Manhattan and back uptown via the 2nd Ave.
Why the 1 train to New Lots? The 3 as an express between South Ferry and Lenox Terminal . . . the south terminus requires switching tracks from express to local.
You know that the C train does not run up Grand Concourse anymore? Not feasible to join IRT and IND at Woodlawn, yet again.
8 train: Where's the LGA stop?
P and H trains are redundant. Never underestimate the power of a free transfer, which is just as good as a one-seat ride in many instances . . .
And how about a 9th Avenue subway also?
Well, since it's a fantasy map, you can assume anything, regardless of its practicality or cost-effectiveness.
What else . . . the N and W running on the 2 and 5? Are you presuming that the White Plains Road line will be converted to BMT/IND along with the Lex Ave Line?
L on restored Pitkin Avenue el to Van Siclen, but no re-extension to Canarsie Pier? How about sending the L west under the Hudson River to Hoboken Terminal, too . . . ?
Could use a Sea Beach Express. Put the J on there instead of the M on the West End Line.
SI: You figured out the logistics of a cross-harbor tunnel? That may spell the end of the SI Ferry. And why new shuttle trains on SI? Shuttle trains are leftovers of old main lines, such as the Franklin Avenue Shuttle (which branched off the Fulton Street El, which I see you covered with your Brighton Beach Line "C" Train) and the Times Square Shuttle (part of the original IRT line). Why no Victory Boulevard Line? Why no cross-Arthur Kill tunnel to send the SIR to Perth Amboy to connect with NJ Transit? Also, looks like you have your Richmond Avenue Line going via the North Shore Line for part of the way . . . no service to Mariners Harbor?
Also a fav of mine, the Myrtle Avenue Line; bring that back as a cut-cover (hang the NIMBYs). The M continuing on the Broadway Line is not a good thing. Old Myrtle Ave line into Manhattan and back uptown via the 2nd Ave.
Why the 1 train to New Lots? The 3 as an express between South Ferry and Lenox Terminal . . . the south terminus requires switching tracks from express to local.
You know that the C train does not run up Grand Concourse anymore? Not feasible to join IRT and IND at Woodlawn, yet again.
8 train: Where's the LGA stop?
P and H trains are redundant. Never underestimate the power of a free transfer, which is just as good as a one-seat ride in many instances . . .
And how about a 9th Avenue subway also?
Aside from the missing Second Avenue Subway and no line to LaGuardia. Why is their no thought of running lines in to New Jersey in any of these fantasy maps. Such a dream would make this a truly regional system.
I would do it myself but I know little about the land use and commuting patterns in New Jersey to make a logical map.
John
Then you can make maps showing travel time to work, population density, income, race, education, everything you want from the 2000 census.
BTW, I like your map. When are you going to put the SAS on it?
Another good idea might by a Fifth Ave. subway line/10th Ave. subway line.
What's the purpose of the H-line (Bronx- Queens)?
This map makes interborough travel more convinient :)
Extend virtually every line at least to city limits. Glad lots of you picked up on Co-op city. Here are a few more:
1. New Lots to JFK & Green Acres
2. Extend 7 and L to terminals in NJ (build a new bus terminal there to reduce Lincoln Tunnel traffic.)
3. Flushing to Bayside & Little Neck
4. Hillside, Archer & Lefferts to city line
5. Canarsie to Bay Ridge via LIRR (was part of 1968 plan)
6. Nostrand Ave to Emmons or Floyd Bennet Field
7. (1) to Getty Square
Manhattan "East Side Infill" Stations
2nd-1st Ave on (7)
2nd-1st Ave on (N)
2nd-1st on (V)
3rd-2nd Ave on LIRR/Amtrak with connecting concourse to (6)
Ave C on (L)
Water St on (F)
Water-South St on (A)
Water St on Clark St tunnel (2)
2nd-1st Ave on (7)
2nd-1st Ave on (N)
2nd-1st on (V)
3rd-2nd Ave on LIRR/Amtrak with connecting concourse to (6)
Ave C on (L)
Water St on (F)
Water-South St on (A)
Water St on Clark St tunnel (2)"
Wouldn't they all be very deep stations, because the lines are all on their way down to the under-river tubes at those points?
Of course, this fantasy land, but providing those stations in real life might be tricky.
Only if the MTA had about a trillion dollars siting around!
-Chris
-Chris
No tunnel.
Cut and paste the link below. There are more photos from other MOD trips as well in the album.
http://www.imagestation.com/member/index.html?name=R40_Railfan&c=201
This Is What I Live For...
Click here for pictures
til next time
wayne
wayne
I see the 142s as technologically "forward" but stylistically "retro." There are "touches of red" here and there. The interior colors are reminiscent of R32-42s. The inside ceiling is reminiscent of the R10-12 (minus the enamel & the fans.)
The R143s remind me of R42s.
My favorite MTA* car (from my lifetime) is the R44 and its "M" cousins. Yeah, they were a mess, but at least their design was the first to acknowledge that passengers/customers are sentient beings who expect "aesthetics" with the products they consume (why do you think the car companies spend millions on style?) That public transit is an "option," not "the last resort for those who can't drive." I feel that transit vehicle design has moved backwards over the past 5-10 years, the "bread truck" style of our buses being an example.
* - My favorite NYC car is the PA1-3
Any SubTalkers gone AWOL lately?
-- David
Brooklyn, NY
Peace,
-- David
Brooklyn, NY
It's still incomplete after almost 100 years ... sounds like a subway station escalator :)
However, if the Cathedral of St. John the Divine is able to gain approval for a real estate deal we're attempting, we might be able to have the building completed within the next 20 years.
Of course, if anybody would like to help speed up completion of the Cathedral, we're always happy to accept donations. :-)
-- David
Brooklyn, NY
As may the Second Avenue Subway.
And skilled masons are much more difficult to find than escalator mechanics.
Not that NYCT is finding it easy to hire competent escalator mechanics.
However, if the Cathedral of St. John the Divine is able to gain approval for a real estate deal we're attempting, we might be able to have the building completed within the next 20 years.
Similar, in some ways, to the tax increment financing plan for the 7 line's extension. Except the Cathedral's approach is a lot less risky.
Of course, if anybody would like to help speed up completion of the Cathedral, we're always happy to accept donations.
Heh. The Cathedral's lucky. All it really needs is money to enable its completion. NYCT, in contrast, needs more than just money to complete the SAS and other projects; it needs competent leadership, and you can't get donations of that.
This is assuming, of course, that St. Peter's technically counts as a cathedral in the technical sense... Since it's the seat of the Bishop of Rome (the pope), I'm inclined to say it does. But then, I'm not Roman Catholic, so I welcome any corrections.
-- David
Brooklyn, NY
St. Peter's is not a cathedral because it's not the seat of the Bishop of Rome. St. John Lateran across town is the seat and therefore the cathedral.
Actually, the largest Roman Catholic church in the world is one (I don't know if it's a church or a cathedral) built about a decade ago in the Ivory Coast.
Peace,
ANDEE
#3 West End Jeff
"Working Papers
Students between the ages of 14 and 17 interested in obtaining working papers should contact the Department of Education's Working Papers Office at (718) 222-6220."
"working papers" sounds like something a jack-booted thug would ask you for: "YOUR PAPERS PLEASE."
REPOST!
Did you seriously even check the archives, or even think that no one would have posted this information even though it has been available for over two days now?
Bill "Newkirk"
article here
Can you image if part of the NEC blew up and Davd Gunn was presented with a similar ultimatium? I don't think he'd have any choice but to pay.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Thanks for playing, Charlie Pellett, please tell him what he's won ... "OOOOooooKkkkkkk ... watch the closing barn doors, Wilbur!" :)
Friends don't LET friends enter "BizarroWorld" ... unless they really WANNA.
Of the major NY papers today only the NY Post and The NY Times were around to cover the 1904 events.
I agree with the Kalikow connection theory but personally would haae preferred the NY Times because they could have done a better sponsorship job (I would really rather have the Daily news but they weren't around then).
Aside from the different reporting style and general lack of intelligence, it is still the NY Post regardless of who many times it changed hands.
Your pal,
Fred
Maybe because SUBWAYSURF mentioned it?
Oh NO, does this mean no that instead of MOD trips this year we will have POST trips? EWWWWWW!!!!!!
http://www.gateway2russia.com/st/art_218792.php
For more on the story.
They live in southern Siberia, which is probably quite pleasant. Maybe they could be sent to northern Siberia.
The Russkies *I* deal with are a real problem. But all they usually want is for you to fix your "PayPal" (tm) account problems on their fake website. :)
The kids will probably get hung ... but that's their idea of a joke culturally ... Beavis and Butthead ... heh.eh.eh.eh.eh. "He said 'butt'" ... :(
Tahiti?
On second thought, why not keep them in Siberia, but have them locked up in a cell watching continuous episodes of 'Gilligan's Island'. That oughta turn 'em into vegetables!
That you are older than me is completely irrelevant and is simply a feeble attempt to show some kind of superiority over me.
All together now:
76TH STREET.
Did Bombardier build these cars?
Even for stations on the Broadway El, Hewes and Lorimer Sts. have low ridership (#405 and #354, respectively). Even the G station between them does better business, about a million people, though not as much as the two BMT stations combined.
Would operations and passengers be better served by demolishing the two elevated stations and replacing them with a single local station at Union Ave., with an escalator transfer to the G? You could make the IND station less of a cesspool while you're at it, although they should do that regardless.
Clearly this replacement is much easier to do with an elevated than with a subway--you could build the new station first around the existing tracks, close the old ones once it's operational, and then scrap them at leisure. Would signals need to be altered? That's about the only objection I can think of, beyond the inconvenience to the small number of people who would have to walk somewhat farther for the BMT, and the fact that MTA has, I think, done some rehab work on the two existing stations recently (new lighting and those stained-glass panels? correct me if I'm wrong about this). I'm thinking that the new convenience of a transfer (and a minute less dwell time along the line) would outweigh those objections.
It is a good and sound idea, but with one improvement from my point of view... Keep the existing enterances, but install moving sidewalks to wisk passengers along the el structure to the new sataion. Probably with a few shops or something along the way, selling coffee donuts and newspapers and such. Probably rent the new space to the existing merchants so that they will not complain or be hurt by the new project.
(Bake the donuts in the street level store, but sell them on the new subway concourse.)
Nobody need be inconvienced, and economic development follows the investment.
Elias
Wow you really have hope for the gentrification of the area around Broadway! Coffee shops, etc....well I guess you didn't say "Starbucks".
The money goes where the money goes.
They ain't gonna invest in a neighborhood or a building where they cannot get a return on their investment.
Elias
Shame that doesn't mean the same in New as in Old Amsterdam ;-)
I do agree though, although it's water under the bridge, that they should have just abandoned both stations and built a new station at Union, partially using the money they used at Hewes and Lorimer for all the upgrades and renovations.
Re : consolidate Hewes, Lorimer : There used to be a Park Avenue station on the Bway el between Myrtle and Flushing Avenue stations, but it was closed and demolished in the Dual Contracts reconstruction due to lack of revenue and use.
I take it you have no problem with the continuation of the Flushing Avenue stop on the Bway el. I think that area has undergone some gentrification. The sister of a person in my work group, in her late '20's, lives near there and is, I think, doing well.
It may interest you to know that the original Cypress Hills station on the Jamaica el was over Crescent St. between Fulton St. and Jamaica Avenue, and was the end of the line, before the Dual Contracts extension of the el to Jamaica Avenue and 168th Street.
As for the Cypress Hills-Crescent S curve, I think the best thing for that is if they built an express track over Jamaica Avenue from 121st St to Broadway Junction. The center track would rise up through the Cypress Hills Station, and over the Manhattan Bound track and continue west over Jamaica Ave to Broadway Junction. No stations would be on the new Jamaica Ave portion of the line. One express station would be made at Woodhaven Blvd. To keep costs down, the local platforms would stay just where they are, but the express track would rise through that station too, with express platforms over the local tracks.
The Fulton St portion of the J would run just like it does now (except minus the skip stop). I don't feel full relocation of the line to Jamaica Ave would be a good idea because basically the new section runs next to a cemetery on one side, and all the Fulton St passengers would have a hardship, with the loss of easy stations.
W
Of course, had the IND's fantasy map come to pass, connecting the G to the Broadway El would be a nonissue, as the Houston and Worth St. alignments via S. 4th St. to Bushwick Ave. and points east would have superseded it and the El would, I assume, have been razed. I wonder what on earth they'd've done with the Willy B tracks and the BMT segment between Chambers and Essex? Abandoned the latter and given the former to cars, I guess.
Yes, the Broadway El would have been razed if the IND second system came to being, just like the Fulton El (much of which was up to dual contract specs had been razed).
As for the WillyB, it's track's fate would have been similar to that of the Queensboro Bridge or the Brooklyn Bridge's tracks - just a memory given over to cars.
As for the subway between Essex and Chambers, I believe that there was a plan to connect it to the IND somehow. I think that was post-IND planning though. See this post and it's responses.
In the other direction, there are two levels all the way. The LIRR tracks will turn off near 3rd Ave.
Peace,
ANDEE
How would such a spur have gotten passengers the Jamaica connection and service to the rental car and long term lots?
Starting from Jamaica Center station (upper level), run the trains down the QB line, and the 63rd Street tunnel to the 6th Avenue Line. At West Fourth Street, to goes and follows the C into the Cranberry Tubes, and follows the Fulton Express (and later the Fulton El) to the Rockaway line, onto the 3 and 4 tracks, and up and over to what is now the AirTrain line. Have it serve all the terminals, then send it up to Jamaica. All that would be needed is to construct a connector from the Jamaica AirTrain station to the tail tracks on D1A and D2A north of Jamaica Center, and a layup track (D3A) to hold E trains, as D1A and D2A would become through tracks. The JFK Express would then become a huge loop through Brooklyn, Queens, and Manhattan!
Stations (Counterclockwise from Jamaica Center)
Jamaica Center
Sutphin Blvd
Union Turnpike
Roosevelt Avenue
21st Street
Roosevelt Island
Lexington Av/63
57th St/6 Av
Rockefeller Center
42nd St/6 Av
34th St-Herald Square
West 4th St
Chambers St
Broadway-Nassau St
Jay St
Station E - Howard Beach II
Station B
Station C
Terminal 1
Terminals 2 & 3
Terminal 4
Terminals 5 & 6
Terminal 7
Terminals 8 & 9
Station C
Station D
Jamaica Center
A clockwise loop will also run, serving the stations in reverse order.
Then those signs that say "VIA JFK AIRPORT" will have some meaning!
"[The JFK Express] made all stops between 21-Queensbridge and 34 Street, then stopped at:
W 4 St, Chambers St, Broadway-Nassau, Jay Street, Howard Beach"
Both incidents of passengers being shunted into the yard was caused by human error according to todays Newsday article.
Bill "Newkirk"
UNSCHEDULED YARD TOUR!
Incident was caused by human error.
Bill "Newkirk"
www.forgotten-ny.com
One pearl that struck me is that Roosevelt Island ranks #238th, which is just below the midpoint of #211 (21st-Queensbridge). This is a very "young" station, having been open for just 15 years. And yet, it is already busier than almost half of the stations in the system, with nearly 1.6m fares per year.
This is significant, because commercial and residential development tends to be partly dependent on transit options. But given the time it takes to get anything done in New York City, 15 years is like the blink of an eye.
This suggests that new stations in the right places can make an enormous difference—and it can happen relatively quickly.
Ground Broken for Westside Homes
Mark
Mark
So then, Why not build the Myrtle-Fifth Avenue Subway that I have proposed.
Those rich speculators could buy land along my proposed routes, and could float and buy construction bonds for the new system, and then profit both from their land speculations, and from their bond dividends.
The city would get a new and needed boost to its infrastructure, plus tax revenues generated by new housing, businesses and jobs that would be created. And all because some investers were willing to invest and profit in the city. See... RICH FAT CATS *ARE* good for something.
Or did you rather want to wait for the Federal Government to give you a handout. You could wait until HELL FREEZES OVER for that! Ain't NONE of those rich fat cats (or their minions) gonna vote a soggy sow for more taxes to build that project.
Do you see how money works now? YOU NEED THE RICH PEOPLE!
Elias
After all, somebody has to bankroll the revolution.
I just wish I could borrow some of Atlanta's rich and powerful people and bring them to Philly to shake things up a bit! I can't see them tolerating the city wage tax for very long, and they might just get the ball rolling on some decent transit expansions, like the Roosevelt Boulevard subway and a sensible plan for commuter service to Reading.
Mark
All long as we're engaging in some wild speculation, I wish I could somehow disband all local government in NYC and put it under the control of Atlanta's administration. Both taxes and the unemployment rate would fall, massive construction would start on the WTC site within a few months, the Second Avenue Subway (full-length ... no stubway crap) and the 7 to Javits (which itself would have doubled in size) would be running within five or six years. Full implementation of CBTC in the entire system might take a year or two longer.
All of the other stuff could happen if hell freezes over, but this is simply impossible without shutting down the subway for 5 or 6 years. CBTC will take at least 15 years, no matter how progressive and can do the administration is.
Which abandoned station would have the highest ridership, if the station were still open today? Limit yourself to stations where the line itself still exists.
Yes, that is MY choice too!
Go Brooklyn!
GO YANKEES!!!!!
Let Forest City/Ratner push the idea.
86th Street is #57 in the system with almost 6 million fares, and 96th St is #20 with over 10 million paid fares. Even if 91st St took away 1.5 million of 86th's users and 1.5 million of 96th's, it would have about 3 million fares which would put it at about 133rd in the system, certainly nothing to sneeze at.
They're too busy jumping turnstiles.
The station had entrances/exits at the intersection of Worth and Lafayette, which would put you within a short block of many very important places. In the immediate area around the station locale are several important buildings, including 26 Federal Plaza (where, among other things, immigration applications are processed, resulting in very very long lines sometimes), Crimimal Court at 100 Centre St., the Manhattan Correctional Center (the Tombs) right next to it, Family Court on Lafayette Street, the Civil Court building at 111 Centre (incorporating Civil Court, Landlord-Tenant Court, a few Supreme Court Parts and Small Claims Court), the Supreme Court building at 80 Centre Street (which until recently housed the local FEMA offices aiding people who lost jobs and businesses on 9/11) and the State Office Building across the street from 80 Centre.
Its true that the extension of the Brooklyn Bridge IRT station enabled NYCT to connect the station to the Chambers Street BMT station, putting IRT riders one block from Worth Street, but its pretty inconvenient to use. For example, in order to use that exit, people exiting the 4/5 at Brooklyn Bridge have to go down a flight of stairs, walk down a fairly long passageway, make a right turn and then climb 2 flights of fairly steep metal stairs. That puts them into the mezzanine of the Chambers Street station. Riders then have to exit the station and climb another hefty flight of stairs to get to the street. They then have to start walking to Worth and points beyond.
That entrance/exit is great for people using the State Supreme Court building at 60 Centre Street and the Federal Courthouse at 40 Foley Square. But to get to points beyond Worth Street, its a pretty far walk, especially in the winter.
So I say Worth Street's reopening would best serve a large segment of riders.
According to the IRT description on this site, Worth Street was closed when Brooklyn Bridge platforms were extended, so I guess the Worth Street platforms are too short for 10-car trains.
The only thing I could add would be the large number of people that work at both 1 and 26 Federal Plaza, and at the new Federal Courthouse on Worth Street opposite the foot of Baxter Street. 26 Federal Plaza is the second largest Federal office building in the United States, the largest being the Pentagon in Washington, D.C.
It would be interesting and convenient to have entrances to a reopened Worth Street station right in the plaza of Federal Plaza, assuming they didn't interfere with the basement garage there.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
Any data available on what ridership / fares / use were like on Worth Street station when it was open, and in use ? When did it close, and why ?
What happened to this extension ? It's not there now. The uptown ends of the BB platforms are now south of Duane Street, more than two blocks south of Worth Street.
I still maintain it would be worthwile to re-open Worth St. station, for reasons I have already stated, and because, too many times, the downtown 6 has stopped about half a dozen times for no apparent reason between Canal St. and Brooklyn Bridge. If it's going to continue doing this, it may as well use, rather than waste, this time stopping at a re-opened Worth Street station to discharge and admit passengers.
It is still there. In the 60's, the southern end of the original Brooklyn Bridge platfroms was abandoned (see Brennan's site), and the extension pushed the station north. Remember also that Worth St only had one side extension to full lenth, and that was on the downtown side. The uptown side is still only the length of the original IRT stations (like 18th St). Also remember that all the extensions on Lex were done in opposite directions on the opposing sides, so the downtown ones went towards north (to Canal in Worth's case), but the uptown sides went south (which needs to be extended to full length at Worth) and would have to be extended south towards BB because if it extended north, it would go too close to the Canal St uptown platform which was extended south in the 50's. So in either direction on the uptown sides, the neighboring stations were extended towards Worth.
The uptown ends of the BB platforms are now south of Duane Street, more than two blocks south of Worth Street.
True, but the Worth St platform must be extended south (as to not conflict with the layout of all the other Lex stations and the Canal platform extension on the uptown side). That would bring the unextended uptown platform of Worth one block closer to BB. And their reasoning was that there was an entrance near Pearl St to the Chambers St station mezzanine, which connects to northern BB stairway to the north end of BB.
It would probably be used, as you say, but the tail end of a 6 going uptown may almost still be in BB as the front enters Worth St. It was probably poor planing in the 50's that caused this. The BB realignment in the 60's was smart to avoid the curve and moving platforms, however I have no clue what possesed them to extend the uptown platforms at Astor, Spring, Bleecker, and Canal to the south as opposed to making them even with the already extended downtown platforms from the 30's.
What was different, when Worth Street station was open, about Lex local train lengths, and the Brooklyn Bridge / City Hall station ?
If they extended the Worth St uptown platform towards Canal, it would get too close to Canal St because the Uptown platfrom at Canal St was extended southwards towards Worth St (unlike the downtown platform at Canal that was extended northwards towards Spring St).
What was different, when Worth Street station was open, about Lex local train lengths, and the Brooklyn Bridge / City Hall station ?
Until the 60's, the Brooklyn Bridge platforms were further south than they are now, and none of the uptown local platforms between BB and 14th had full length platforms till the 50's.
I think I need to see on a to-scale map of Lafayette St. between Canal and Reade Sts. (an enlargement of part of a "Neighborhood Map" from BB-City Hall station would be good) why a re-opening of Worth St. station would not work with current #6 train lengths.
Of course they COULD reopen Worth St. It's not as though the distance from the north end of BB to the south end of Canal is so short that it's impossible.
However that latter distance is under half a mile, so there's no way NYCT is going to add another station there.
No. But for new construction it's certainly a good rule of thumb. If you add Worth St., you have stations less than a quarter mile apart. When was the last time NYCT or its predecessors opened a new train station where the distance to the next stop was a quarter mile or less away?
My gut feel is: before 1925.
Couple of questions:
How long does it take NJT/MN to train the train crews for the new cars? Is there anything really revolutionary for them to learn..or is it like getting a new car: you know which buttons to push,just a matter of finding them?
Posted on:3/4/04 9:31:34 AM
Posted on:3/4/04 9:31:34 AM
Due to a police investigation at Fulton Street trains are operating on the line from Nevins Street in Brooklyn to 149th Street Grand Concourse in both directions. train service is suspended between Nevins Street in Brooklyn, and Brooklyn Bridge in both directions until futher notice.I'm going into the city in a couple of minutes. I will investigate the situation and have a report later this afternoon. If service is still disrupted when I get there, I will interview at least 5 customers to get their priceless thoughts on the situation.
Really just curious here. This has always been the anomaly in the system.
Over 10 years ago, the late night H shuttle did "round-robin" shuttle service, an unpopular shuttle with both crews working on the shuttle and the customers who use them. Why should you make rush-hour commuters from the Rockaway Park section, take at least 3 trains before they even get to Howard Beach? (Rockaway Park to Beach 67th st, down and over to another shuttle to BC, then regular A train into Manhattan.)
Have you actually seen the current headways for Rockaway service?
Pardon my ignorance but why isn’t service to the peninsula and Broad Channel run as a “stub” or as a separate entity? Can shuttle service connect the both terminals on the peninsula with Broad Channel (or a point further north)?
It's fine just the way it is.
With prominently posted scheduling in each station, you could run three or four shuttle trains per hour to connect with the A further up the line.
Umm shuttle trains currently run at 12-16 minute intervals, do the math on the # of trains per hour. I thought the schedule times are made so people don't have long waits for the Rockaway Park shuttle at Broad Channel.
Even more radical would be to close all but the two terminal stations and run buses to BC.
Depending on the Q22........enough said ;-). Replacing the trains with buses will do no good whatsoever. Good thing you said that it is radical b/c it most likely won't happen but then again you never know.
Really just curious here. This has always been the anomaly in the system.
The words rapid transit is an anomaly in this system ;^D.
Last week it was the #1 train running to the Rockaways, this time it's the D train entering the IRT. Start laughing because I was talking to one Subtalker last night and he initially didn't believe me.
Its amazing how people are lazy; with cutting and pasting, there is more time for proofreading.
Perhaps I have a suggestion for everyone: Should I start seperate DUH! threads or use one Offical thread and track all of the DUH! mistakes?
It's nice to know, living in Baltimore, that NYCT is as incompetant as our Maryland Transit Administration.
All seriousness aside, I suspect it's just bad cut-n-paste on a "good for all notices" form.
See you folks in 20 years for some pics(if i'm not an invalid at that time).
Mark
Miami-Dade County's mass-transit aspirations got a boost last week when the Florida Department of Transportation appropriated $100 million for a Metrorail extension to Miami International Airport.
The grant will pay more than a third of the costs of the project, with the remaining $160 million coming from revenues from a half-percent sales tax, said Carlos Bonzon, county manager of surface transportation.
At hand is a plan to extend Metrorail from the Earlington Heights station at Northwest 22nd Avenue and State Route 112 to a proposed transportation hub, the Miami Intermodal Center, next to the airport.
The project is to be completed in 2012. Metrorail would enter the center, and passengers would transfer to a people mover that would take them into airport terminals.
http://www.fakeisthenewreal.org/subway/index.html
I'd imagine we're familiar with NYC and it's actual layout, but there are other cities here too...
Mark
I like the way Moscow designed their system with a central location, lines that extend to distant locations and one line that circles all of those extentions. Incredible.
It'd likely be incorrect to include things like RER and S-bahns on these maps, since it says "subway systems of the world" at the top. However, it is somewhat misleading to show Berlin and Paris with such a seemingly piss-poor Metro systems, when in fact they have a system which does not qualify as a subway, but serves the same role as the extended branches of the NYCTA system.
http://www.chiri.com/download/routemap/23_rosenzu_01.PDF
(Do not post direct links to this file. Copy and paste, please)
You may need the asian languages plug-in for Acro Reader.
London also has an intensive above ground network, most of which do not make onto the Tube map.
I agree with you, and I suspect that the London map is too small.
There seems to be no email address to complain to. I can only conclude that "www.fakeisthenewreal.org" is a fake!
Domain Name:FAKEISTHENEWREAL.ORG
Created On:13-Jan-2003 17:05:18 UTC
Last Updated On:09-Jan-2004 00:01:41 UTC
Expiration Date:13-Jan-2005 17:05:18 UTC
Sponsoring Registrar:R39-LROR
Status:OK
Registrant ID:44D138CEA4FFC3E6
Registrant Name:Neil Freeman
Registrant Street1:121 S. Professor St.
Registrant City:Oberlin
Registrant Postal Code:44074
Registrant Country:US
Registrant Email:neil.freeman@oberlin.edu
Hello, Neil
I am one of several railfans at www.nycsubway.org "SubTalk" who have looked at your maps at www.fakeisthenewreal.org.
We think it's a very good and interesting idea to show subway maps of different cities on the same scale.
But we also think that some of your maps are not correctly scaled.
The following discrepancies have been noted:
1. The map of London is much too small, at least when compared with New York and Paris.
2. The map of New York, when shown on the larger scale, doubles in width but only increases by about 30% in height.
3. The map of Tokyo is upside down.
I am sure that we would be very happy if these errors could be corrected, as your concept is such a good one.
Sincerely,
David Fairthorne
david.fairthorne@rogers.com
Reason: 5.1.1 unknown or illegal alias: neil.freeman@oberlin.edu
Let me look into this further. I hate guys who do this stuff.
Chuck
Domain Name: OBERLIN.EDU
Registrant:
Oberlin College
173 W. Lorain
Oberlin, OH 44074
UNITED STATES
Contacts:
Administrative Contact:
John Bucher
Oberlin College
148 W. College St.
Oberlin, OH 44074
UNITED STATES
(440) 775-6727
john.bucher@oberlin.edu
Technical Contact:
Ken Ervin
Oberlin College
173 W. College St.
Oberlin, OH 44074
UNITED STATES
(440) 775-8798
ken.ervin@oberlin.edu
Name Servers:
DNS.CC.OBERLIN.EDU 132.162.32.243
DNS2.CC.OBERLIN.EDU 132.162.32.244
NS1.OAR.NET
... what I did was to blow up the small-scale maps to 6 x size in xv
and print them that way, so I could count the individual pixels. I also pasted on a 60x120 pixel rectangle (equivalent to 10 x 20 pixels before scaling) so I could measure distances to check my count.
I then picked rail landmarks as I described before, this time being
careful to choose ones I could locate as accurately as possible on the 1/300,000 scale city maps in my world atlas; I measured and counted pixels horizontally and vertically on the images from the web site, and measured the diagonal distance on the atlas maps. And here are the results, which I am confident are within about 3% of the true numbers, and probably better than that in most cases.
Paris
CDG/Etoile - Gare d'Austerlitz
48 pix hor X 33 pix vert = 58.2 pix diagonal distance
map distance 20.7 mm -> 6.2 km = 3.9 miles
=> 14.9 pixels/mile
New York
Lower Manhattan curves - Rockaways junction
117 pix hor X 85 pix vert = 144.6 pix diagonal distance
map distance 71.5 mm -> 21.4 km = 13.3 miles
=> 10.9 pixels/mile
Washington
West Falls Church - Wheaton
47 pix hor X 56 pix vert = 73.1 pix diagonal distance
map distance 67 mm -> 20.1 km = 12.5 miles
=> 5.8 pixels/mile
London
Richmond - Epping
86 pix hor X 74 pix vert = 113.5 pix diagonal distance
map distance 128 mm -> 38.4 km = 23.9 miles
=> 4.7 pixels/mile
Chicago
O'Hare station - middle of Loop
60 pix hor X 31 pix vert = 67.5 pix diagonal distance
map distance 84 mm -> 25.2 km = 15.7 miles
=> 4.3 pixels/mile
Conclusion: the supposed uniformity of scale is no such thing. It is
an error or a fiction. And you can quote me on that.
--
Mark Brader "One might as well complain about the Sun
Toronto rising in the daytime instead of atnight,
msb@vex.net when we need it more." -- John Lawler
The first leg of the multibillion-dollar project, approved by voters in 2000, would connect Orlando and Tampa.
Gallagher said Thursday he will serve as chairman of Derail the Bullet Train. It will take 488,000 voter signatures to get the repeal effort on the ballot.
State Rep. Bob Allen, who is sponsoring the high-speed-rail repeal effort in the House, said Wednesday that he welcomed Gallagher's leadership.
"I think he'll help a lot," said Allen, R-Merritt Island. "He's the chief financial officer of the state, and he knows what the investment and the financial impacts are. He's a statewide figure who will bring attention to the issue."
Initially, the bullet train is to run between downtown Tampa and Orlando International Airport at speeds up to 125 mph, with stops in Lakeland and at Walt Disney World, starting in 2009. Other cities would be added later.
-----------
I don't get it. They just flatly ignore other laws. The 3 times more expense school size law isn't complied with, and they don't even start campaigns against them. Whys' this one different?
They're talking about another law limiting citizens right to amend the consitution now, and another law to oust any elected official who refuses to comply with them.
What a can of worms that's open now. If they can find 488,000 people in the panhandle and the space coast(the only two areas opposed) this thing will be back on the ballot.
Let's just hope their desparate measures are just that, remembering that "desparate" comes from a Latin word meaning "without hope."
Mark
And to think, the Bush is supposed to be pro-business. Who is more capitalist than Richard Branson?
Mark
I commend Gov. Bush on his reluctance to cave into the "Spend,Spend,Spend" agenda that seems to always be the
goal of the Liberal party. Don't waste MY Money!
ROB
Ft.Lauderdale, FL
How would you know it would not work if it hasen't been tried? LightRails are flourishing all over the country bringing life into communities that have been abandoned for decades. New hotels, hi-rise condo and jobs are being created with each new mile of rail. Ft. Lauderdale spread out because there was never any attempt to construct a central point so you're stuck driving miles just to get a newspaper.
Rail is going to come back because empty space to put another "freeway" are running out but the number of cars continue to grow each year.
>>>>Taking in the cost to build and operate the Metrorail, it would be less expensive per person to actually put the riders in a limo and drive them to thier destination. <<<
Where are your figures? How much is it costing to fix, build and police your highways? The freeway is not free.
>>>>>I commend Gov. Bush on his reluctance to cave into the "Spend,Spend,Spend" agenda that seems to always be the
goal of the Liberal party. Don't waste MY Money!<<<<<
The conservative is NOT fiscally conservative. Folks. These conservative folks in Florida are a joke. The current administration in Washington has not vetoed a single spending bill in the past four years. Futhermore, they are spending billions fighting two wars and now they want to waste a trillion dollars for a trip to Mars!! Meanwhile, my property taxes are going through the roof because Washington cut back on state aid and grants for education. The whole situation is insane and getting worse.
USA Today is saying that gas prices are going past 2 bucks this summer but I could care less since my Metrocard protects me against any price fuel price hikes. Those conservatives in Florida without any rail service will simply have to spend more of their hard earned bucks the next trip to the pump.
If gas goes up to $10.00 dollars a gallon, I will sleep like a bab thanks to rail transport.
I don't think this means that transit won't work in an area where sprawling suburban style land-use is the norm. Houston is a sprawlopolis, and rail has been a huge hit there, drawing as many riders as the trains can hold. What's more, it seems to be fostering the kind of denser development that will make transit optimally effective.
The coordination of transit and transit-friendly development will become ever more crucial as sprawl-as-a-rule becomes less and less tenable. Traffic jams, expensive gas, and 2-hour commutes will make the car-only world impractical and rail transit and transit-friendly development will be necessary.
Also, just because I hate to make this a liberal vs. conservative issue, there's a lot of money to be made in redeveloping the abandoned centers of sprawling cities into vibrant communities. Hey, if I owned real estate downtown I'd make a lot more money renting my space out to twenty businesses and a hundred residential tennants than use the space as a parking lot.
Mark
I'm glad you pointed out the lightrail project in Houston. The people who fought against this rail line were those in the burbs who were not going to receive any benefit. All they want are more highways and cheaper gas but those days are comming to an end. Folks. Smart growth and denser developement is the next wave of the future. It's just getting too expensive to provide essential services anymore to communities hundreds of miles in the middle of nowhere.
Urban sprawl was made possible on the assumption that fuel was aways going to be available and cheap. Not so anymore. Hundreds of millions are in debt up to their eyeballs because of this expensive auto-centric lifestyle.
We will one day return to this "denser developement" as was stated in a previous thread simply because we can no longer afford to sprawl anymore.
Or do you want to close down airports too?
Actually, I think a high-speed rail network lends itself to a place where there are lots of people living far from urban centers, because a train can add stops to serve outlying areas, which you can't really do with air travel. This works for areas with sprawl like Florida, or places like Texas that have a considerable rural population filling the countryside between its large cities.
I used to live in a small town, and it was a real pain to always have to drive two hours to get to the nearest major airport. A good rail system integrated into our airport system would have made my life a lot easier.
Mark
And my favorite. How many tourists? 65MILLION. Half of which are international. As you know in Miami the rental car agency is pretty big and powerful. International people aren't too fond of our highways, plus, you like driving around rentals and tourists? Nope. One rental almost plowed into a bus yesterday before jumping a median.(after i watched a pickup rearend a minivan). I can't stand driving around rentals, I dont' see what's so hard about driving them, but apparently the majority of people are so inept as it is.
Plus, i see you're point. I don't want a cent of transportation money going to Miami. Worse 3rd world drivers around, and y'all are so rude too. And you have bus and rail, park and ride, I have nothing.
With each new subdivision, commuting by motor car becomes increasing difficult. Sprawl is a machine that needs more land to feed it's supporters. The problem with this machine is the fact that we can't build enough roads, sewers, gas lines, schools, fire departments, police departments etc, bus service etc, etc fast enough once these subdivisons start to grow. People think it's cheaper to live out there until their property tax bill comes due!
All I know is, with traffic the way it is and 1.72 for gas(i think the buses are a lot fuller now than 2 months ago), jet-train would've been nice. Instead of talking about it for 20 years, if they built it we wouldn't have this need to spend billions on highways, just slightly less. I would be able to visit my old area. Plus I probably would've been able to commute to a dream job. What a shame.
Highway construction, by the way, only meet the demend of almost 20 years, and only increase the ratings from 'F' to 'D' Around here, and sometimes just an F+.
That because there already is a funding stream for roads. Their called motor fuel taxes, registration, operator license, fees and other user fees.
John
Thanks.
BTW I've seen some wags on the "R" line set up with the Brown Diamond in the lead motor.
wayne
til next time
Forest Hills, not Astoria.
The Z and the 9 only run on rush hours and they don't have the diamond designations either.
If there were a diamond-Z, there would also have to be a circle-Z that ran at the same time but made different stops.
The M in south Brooklyn is never signed as a diamond-M, on the trains or on station signage, nor is it ever supposed to be signed as a diamond-M. The rush hour 4 is never signed as a diamond-4, on the trains or on station signage, nor is it ever supposed to be signed as a diamond-4.
The map needs to find a new symbol to denote rush hour service.
Until recently, the map showed the diamond-5 rather than the circle-5 in Brooklyn, running to Flatbush. There's only one major problem with that: the diamond-5 refers specifically to the peak-direction trains to/from Nereid rather than Dyre, and those trains generally run to/from Utica or New Lots, not Flatbush. So, while there is a diamond-5, and while the map showed a diamond-5 in Brooklyn, the real live diamond-5's specifically didn't go where the map claimed that only the diamond-5 went!
No, the use of the diamond in those situations is proper, the intended purpose of the concept when first introduced. Only in the past decade or so has the diamond's meaning been expanded to indicate things outside the rush hour only connotation. I think the diamond has evolved because there are so few rush-hour only routes in the system today as opposed to 1979. It's ironic that the only 2 in existence today never use the diamond on the map (Z, 9).
That service did not last a long time. The (W) then started to make all local stops in Astoria.
The roll signs have both. If one is showing on the train it is becasue whoever was changing the sign didn't put the right bullet up.
Let's just hope their desparate measures are just that, remembering that "desparate" comes from a Latin word meaning "without hope."
Mark
And to think, the Bush is supposed to be pro-business. Who is more capitalist than Richard Branson?
Mark
There's a page on it here.
Not saying though that the subways are 100% safe, but then again, anywhere you go you should remember to watch your back.
Regards,
Jimmy
The last big accident with multiple fatalities was probably the Union Square derailment about 15 years ago on the lexington line (4/5/6). The motorman was drunk, came in too fast and the train jumped the track. One car turned sideways, barrel-rolled through the tunnel and 15 people died. The motorman had been missing stops all along before the incident due to his inebriation. He was sentenced to 15 years in jail - not sure if he's out yet.
Not 15 people dies just only 6 people died in the frist cars split in half & over 150 people hurts.
David
Damn.
- Charles Darwin
Mark
It was a report by David Diaz.
As of 8pm 3/4, there is a link at the web page below that shows a video feed of the report.
http://cbsnewyork.com/siteSearch/topstories_story_064110906.html
If an officer has reasonable cause to believe you have committed an offense (which is not the case with most subway photographers), the officer has the right to demand identification so that he or she issue sthe summons to the correct person. If the person in question fails to provide ID, the officer may take the person into custody pending identification of the alleged miscreant.
That doesn't necessarily mean it's a crime not to show ID. I sure hope the court says it's not. But if an officer has a reasonable you've done something illegal and you don't show ID, you can almost certainly be detained, even though failure to show ID is not a crime itself.
Except that cops seem to think that subway photography is illegal.
Certainly. However, the officer should state that he/she believes you have done whatever and is writing you up and therefore needs to see identification.
So I believe Hiibel was within his rights to ask why, and deserve an explanation before offering Id. Notice at the end, the refusing to produce an Id was the only charge left.
I hope Mimi Hiibel wins an assault case against the police officers involved.
I think it was just low ridership.
The PATH was there first, is a two track lion. Call them the "express" tracks if you wish.
When the IND was built they kinda sorta used the local track positions, but are somewhat lower than the PATH, The tracks being sorta under the existing PATH platforms.
The 6th Avenue line does indeed go UP from W4th Street, but remember that they are in the 4th basement as it were at that point. The do indeed go down at 34th Street, they gotta get UNDER the Broadway Lion.
Elias
Looks much like 14th and 23rd otherwise.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Those looked like emergency exits from the IND.
Here is what occured during construction of the 6 Avenue Line.
The H&M 14 Street Station was cut back at the north end where it passes over the BMT 14 Street Line (L Train)and extended at the south end. As part of this work two unfinished passageways at the south end of the IND 14 Street platforms were built and sealed off. Eventually these became the free transfer point to the BMT. (1967.68 +/-).
23 Street: The new subway cut off access to the H&M platforms so new pedestrian underpasses had to be built.
Between 26 and 30 Streets the IND local tracks are in deep rock tunnels. The lowest point on the line is at 29 Street, 67 feet below street grade.
The original H&M 33 Street Terminal was shutdown for three years in orders to rebuild it at a higher elevation to enable the IND 6 Avenue Line to pass over the PRR Tunnels at 32 and 33 Streets. The roof of the railroad tunnel was removed and replaced with a special shallow roof which also serves as the floor of the new subway.
A "new" 33 Street Terminal was built for the H&M but it actually one block south of the old location at 32 Street although the 33 Street name was retained.
When the new "33 Street" Terminal opened 28 Street was closed. (I don't have the exact dates in front on me), but the IND 6 Avenue Line opened for service on December 15, 1940. 19 Street was closed in 1954.
Sources:
1) SIXTH AVENUE SUBWAY TWENTY YEARS AGO by Bob Olmstead, NYD Bulletin, January 1961.
2) THE HUDSON & MANHATTAN RAILROAD REVISTED by Paul Carleton, D Carleton Railbooks 1990.
Larry, ReadbirdR33
1) So what happened at 19 St? How was the station altered?
2) What was the 23 St H&M station originally like? Was it a narrow pedestrian tunnel from the building line of 6 Av to the center of 6 Av where the tracks are? Or was the station much larger and made use of all the space between the building line and the center of the avenue?
Incidentally, it looks like a lot of our questions could have been answered had we attend the tour described below. Did anyone know about this? Was it posted on SubTalk?
Tour
MIRACLES UNDER 34TH STREET
Sunday, March 14, 12 Noon
From the newest Sixth Avenue station, at 57th Street, to the oldest, at West 4th Street, this tour will explore the complexities of “wrapping” the 1940 IND subway around existing tracks. Obstacles to the new construction were the Port Authority Trans Hudson line (PATH), built in 1911, the Broadway BMT line, built in 1918, Pennsylvania Station tunnels, and the 6th Avenue el, built in 1878 — making this line a marvel of design and construction. The tour with Subway Historian Joe Cunningham will also encompass the complex 14th, 23rd, and 34th Street stations and the deep-bore express tracks that opened in 1967 between 34th and West 4th Streets.
Reservations required: $15 Museum members, $20 non-members.
Benjamin Franklin would work even better.
alas, I was being serious - there was far too much information being swirled about my head on the tour for me to absorb most of it. but I guarantee that Joe Cunningham (tour leader) would know, if anyone knew how to contact him....
Then, at 96th Street, an unusual five-car work train idling on the downtown express track Two pairs of Redbirds with #7 and 111 Street rollsigns, sandwiching special car OS02. The consist headed uptown, switching to the downtown Broadway local track my train just came in on.
Anybody know what was going on?
Here's a picture of it.
And here's the train it was running with. Needless to say, R22's.
Were does Redbirds ML or WF?
Acela
So with the Master Lever pushed in, and the operator gone home for the night, what does it become...a Relay Room?
Maybe the definition could be this:
Towers have local control from an interlocker [EP/Elec/NX/UR] with no provision for remote control.
Auxiliary / Satellite Towers have local control from an interlocker, and control may be transferred to a remote point.
Relay Rooms (mainline RR equiv= "Control Points") are designed to be remoted at all times, and have no provision for control by a tower operator, only local emergency control from a maintainer's panel
Take Queensboro Plaza Master Tower. The "Interlocking", i.e.
the vital assembly of relays which requires the operation of
signals and switches in pre-determined order to prevent conflicting
movements, is no where near the place that people call the "tower".
It is in various relay rooms out in the field. Maybe big-time
railroads would just call it a "dispatch center", but the TA
calls it a Master Tower.
Where is the QPMT in relation to the tracks?
QBMT is up on the structure just south of the station. Rawson still controls the IRT/BMT inter-dimensional X-over
So let's beat this dead horse again, just for excercise. Exactly why is the TA a rail-way and not a rail-road?
Don't say FRA.
None of the system's stations or rails extend beyond city limits; therefore the system does not qualify to be called a railroad. New York City Transit is simply a network consisting of subways and buses.
If the subways truly were a railroad, it'd be getting as much state aid as the Long Island Rail Road and MetroNorth Railroad do. The fact that customers pay more than 60% of the cost for their ride shows that is truly not the case.
The TA does not fit the definition of Railroad as drafted by the FRA.
I THINK QBMT has:
11th St cut to Ditmars [excluding Rawson]
36th St through Court Sq/X-town, 23/Ely, and Lex/63 respectively.
If the new signals at 111 are done, then just a few modems could put QBMT in control of that part of Corona. I haven't been up in there in over a year...
There must be some examples of US&S Model 14 satellite towers?
I can think of one, but it's OOS now I think. "Do you remember
this voice": "Hey Dave, I got a question, I turned this white
lever, and the darn'dest thing....."
It can't be a satellite tower unless control can be remoted, so all of the towers like Kings Hwy[Culver], 215, and the Concourse towers can't be considered as satellites.
Their master levers cut out interlocking features on the middle track so traffic can be swung with the tower closed, but there is no provision for remote control.
"...And this week on the Hide-Away, the panel discusses timing issues in UR selector circuits. Later, a motorman who claims to have seen a bottom green and taken a diverging route..."
But I did, I did! Sitting behind X60 (north of 135/Lenox) a few years back with a 3 train because of a switch problem at Lenox Terminal/Yard. After 20 minutes or so, Lenox Tower gave me a bottom green and I took the train to the right over the switch to 149/Grand Concourse.
This banner image appeared as I loaded the NYCSubway.org home page.
Seeing it there brought a smile to my face. :D
- Amanda
Care to explain your reasoning?
Just go and ride it, unless the costs are an issue (which is the real reason I think).
Disregard if posted already.
- Amanda
http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4287529315
However, I only have one picture in there. I'll be contributing more in the future.
edk256
For starters, what kind of camera are you using? Secondly, what train were you on? I bet it was a R40 N, right?
If I approach you nicely, politely and QUITE respectfully, is it unreasonable for me to expect the same treatment?
And don't say that SA's (as a whole) don't have attitide problems, because that's just a lie.
I'd also like to rant about the 6 train, but you've all had enough of that.
Any thoughts?
And don't say that SA's (as a whole) don't have attitide problems, because that's just a lie.
I'd also like to rant about the 6 train, but you've all had enough of that.
Any thoughts?
most dont.
Some do.
Those that do should be fired
I was forced to jump a turnstile to get home. Lovely.
Speaking of which, you'd be surprised how many 1 stations LACK the 1/9 timetable. Asshats. <--- I like that word; if you're wondering, Blair made it up/used it.
We discovered it was the last one when Transit Chuck Greene asked for one and she actually looked under things, unsuccessfully, for another box full of The Map.
She was very pleasant and helpful.
Anyone know the real story...(Todd G., maybe).
Most inbound North Station trains are six cars, with seating of about 140 pax per car. Some have a few empty seats, others have standees. But a good average is about 800 pax per train. Assuming crush load on a bus is 60, you need about 13 buses per train. With half hourly service inbound and outbound on the Lowell Line during rush hours, you'd need a minimum of three sets of 13 buses, or 39 buses to provide service. With all of the other DNC-related activities, I doubt the T has the equipment to spare. So I would expect that the T will charter school buses, which for the most part are idle during the summer.
Besides, aren't you an advocate for a 7-day V? I am too.
I wonder why you don't pursue your pro-V stance over at the Diaries. Then again, they always give the same asshat response:
The V is useless.
Kill the V.
The G is being inconvenienced because of all this.
The E is too crowded.
There are less F trains/the F route isn't as appealing.
I tire of these mantras. Most people easily misconceive this to be the case, since they're the only ones who actually have an issue. Of course, it's most likely a misinterpretation of what's really going on and most people know the V is doing fine.
45 seconds to go over two switches? No cleanout time.
And what about the time it locks out the other tracks. Or is TPH more important than safety? Where do crews clean out. If a door gets stuck and you have to hit the roadbed how long will you give the person walking the mainline during rush hour?
This can happens anywhere and anytime, not only at turning G if they
reach QP.
It does happen all the time at CTL. But if an end door is stuck it is not a big deal to go back a car and walk the roadbed. It kills time but it is a fairly safe move.
On 5 track, trains will be whizzing by you, not a safe move.
G Arrives at 7:18
R Scheduled to arrive at 7:21-23
E Arrives at 7:24
V Arrives at 7:21. In order for the G to get the good relay. It has to leave at 7:22.Or at 7:20. But to make a connection, a transfer to the V can be done. They could send in the G into D5 track. It has 3 minutes to clean out. And get in the new crew then switch over to D5 Track, by 7:24. That's 6 minutes!
Now the relay
E arrives southbound around 7:25-7:27.
V arrives at Qns plaza around 7:31
R arrives at 7:29.
The G can arrive on the Southbound Express Track at 7:28, and depart as the R is arriving, or let a connection happen. Then the R can depart and the G follow after. Since the V arrives at 7:31 and the next E is at 7:30-32.
Now this assumes the E, R, G, V follow the schedule, and everything works according to plan. But I do show that it can be done, and have enough time to get passengers off the train. This would give the G more time to clean out the train then people at Brooklyn Bridge, South Ferry.
Remember, in this situation, QP is the G's last stop. It needn't stay to have the V across the platform from it. Have the G leave at 7:20 so that the R can come in, and have the X-over clear so the V can use it.
[It has 3 minutes to clean out.]
In the situation I suggest, it has 2. There are only 4 cars, anyway.
Now do it for the other scheduled trains!
>R Scheduled to arrive at 7:21-23
First this is not acceptable. SB would accuse you of being a NYCT OPS planning supervisor.
Second 45 seconds is too low and does not add in the time it takes for switches to lock.
While the G is crossing over they will not let another train on EITHER track N/B for safety.
If you do assume a 7:20 crossover what happens to the 7:20 E? It does run 4 mins NB at times.
At 7:28 you are expecting an R, G and an E.
Personally I wouldn't like the idea. If a G train goes BIE while crossing to/from D5 you're plugging up D2 and 4 or D1 and 3 meaning you've lost ALL service in that direction at Queens Plaza.
http://www.fakeisthenewreal.org/subway/index.html
Cool huh?
www.forgotten-ny.com
See thread starting here. Unfortunately some of us have noticed rather obvious scaling errors!
www.forgotten-ny.com
http://www.nycrail.com/amb/board1/2933.html
I think this shot would good a little earlier in the day, if the sun is over your right shoulder. It would warm up the color in the train and maybe give some good hues to the sky.
John
* courtesy of forgotten-ny.com
CLICK ON THE IMAGE BELOW TO ENLARGE IN A NEW WINDOW
Draw a line across Canal and stretch the map vertically at that point. It'll give you a lot more room to work with, and you can correct the connecting angles in Queens.
1972 NYC subway map
Mark
That's absolutely correct. It was in 1933.
The man's name was Harry Beck.
(Sorry -can't do Links )
A
AA
CC
E
1
2
3
EE
N
QB
RR
NX
B
D
F
KK
4
5
6
JJ
M
RJ
QJ
7
8
GG
HH
LL
MJ
SS
PS - sorry for the UK link - I can't find a US version.
The 1973 was perhaps the best looking NYC subway map ever, but (like most schematic maps) was difficult to use because it completely ignored geography. It was even stricture than this pretty version - there were mainly 90 degree angles! Broadway was a zig-zag, and worst of all, the station at 51st & 7th Ave was WEST of 50th & 8th!!!
When I was in London & Paris, the schematic was great for following & connecting lines, but my main maps were the rarer ones that were based upon the street systems, like NYC's current version.
In London most people use the A-Z map to get around on foot on the surface, but the tube map to plan their journeys.
I commend Gov. Bush on his reluctance to cave into the "Spend,Spend,Spend" agenda that seems to always be the
goal of the Liberal party. Don't waste MY Money!
ROB
Ft.Lauderdale, FL
How would you know it would not work if it hasen't been tried? LightRails are flourishing all over the country bringing life into communities that have been abandoned for decades. New hotels, hi-rise condo and jobs are being created with each new mile of rail. Ft. Lauderdale spread out because there was never any attempt to construct a central point so you're stuck driving miles just to get a newspaper.
Rail is going to come back because empty space to put another "freeway" are running out but the number of cars continue to grow each year.
>>>>Taking in the cost to build and operate the Metrorail, it would be less expensive per person to actually put the riders in a limo and drive them to thier destination. <<<
Where are your figures? How much is it costing to fix, build and police your highways? The freeway is not free.
>>>>>I commend Gov. Bush on his reluctance to cave into the "Spend,Spend,Spend" agenda that seems to always be the
goal of the Liberal party. Don't waste MY Money!<<<<<
The conservative is NOT fiscally conservative. Folks. These conservative folks in Florida are a joke. The current administration in Washington has not vetoed a single spending bill in the past four years. Futhermore, they are spending billions fighting two wars and now they want to waste a trillion dollars for a trip to Mars!! Meanwhile, my property taxes are going through the roof because Washington cut back on state aid and grants for education. The whole situation is insane and getting worse.
USA Today is saying that gas prices are going past 2 bucks this summer but I could care less since my Metrocard protects me against any price fuel price hikes. Those conservatives in Florida without any rail service will simply have to spend more of their hard earned bucks the next trip to the pump.
If gas goes up to $10.00 dollars a gallon, I will sleep like a bab thanks to rail transport.
I don't think this means that transit won't work in an area where sprawling suburban style land-use is the norm. Houston is a sprawlopolis, and rail has been a huge hit there, drawing as many riders as the trains can hold. What's more, it seems to be fostering the kind of denser development that will make transit optimally effective.
The coordination of transit and transit-friendly development will become ever more crucial as sprawl-as-a-rule becomes less and less tenable. Traffic jams, expensive gas, and 2-hour commutes will make the car-only world impractical and rail transit and transit-friendly development will be necessary.
Also, just because I hate to make this a liberal vs. conservative issue, there's a lot of money to be made in redeveloping the abandoned centers of sprawling cities into vibrant communities. Hey, if I owned real estate downtown I'd make a lot more money renting my space out to twenty businesses and a hundred residential tennants than use the space as a parking lot.
Mark
I'm glad you pointed out the lightrail project in Houston. The people who fought against this rail line were those in the burbs who were not going to receive any benefit. All they want are more highways and cheaper gas but those days are comming to an end. Folks. Smart growth and denser developement is the next wave of the future. It's just getting too expensive to provide essential services anymore to communities hundreds of miles in the middle of nowhere.
Urban sprawl was made possible on the assumption that fuel was aways going to be available and cheap. Not so anymore. Hundreds of millions are in debt up to their eyeballs because of this expensive auto-centric lifestyle.
We will one day return to this "denser developement" as was stated in a previous thread simply because we can no longer afford to sprawl anymore.
Or do you want to close down airports too?
Actually, I think a high-speed rail network lends itself to a place where there are lots of people living far from urban centers, because a train can add stops to serve outlying areas, which you can't really do with air travel. This works for areas with sprawl like Florida, or places like Texas that have a considerable rural population filling the countryside between its large cities.
I used to live in a small town, and it was a real pain to always have to drive two hours to get to the nearest major airport. A good rail system integrated into our airport system would have made my life a lot easier.
Mark
And my favorite. How many tourists? 65MILLION. Half of which are international. As you know in Miami the rental car agency is pretty big and powerful. International people aren't too fond of our highways, plus, you like driving around rentals and tourists? Nope. One rental almost plowed into a bus yesterday before jumping a median.(after i watched a pickup rearend a minivan). I can't stand driving around rentals, I dont' see what's so hard about driving them, but apparently the majority of people are so inept as it is.
Plus, i see you're point. I don't want a cent of transportation money going to Miami. Worse 3rd world drivers around, and y'all are so rude too. And you have bus and rail, park and ride, I have nothing.
With each new subdivision, commuting by motor car becomes increasing difficult. Sprawl is a machine that needs more land to feed it's supporters. The problem with this machine is the fact that we can't build enough roads, sewers, gas lines, schools, fire departments, police departments etc, bus service etc, etc fast enough once these subdivisons start to grow. People think it's cheaper to live out there until their property tax bill comes due!
All I know is, with traffic the way it is and 1.72 for gas(i think the buses are a lot fuller now than 2 months ago), jet-train would've been nice. Instead of talking about it for 20 years, if they built it we wouldn't have this need to spend billions on highways, just slightly less. I would be able to visit my old area. Plus I probably would've been able to commute to a dream job. What a shame.
Highway construction, by the way, only meet the demend of almost 20 years, and only increase the ratings from 'F' to 'D' Around here, and sometimes just an F+.
-Robert King
So that propaganda video had the desired effect!
The $1 billion is to be spread over five years, but the announcement is timed for the 50th anniversary and a federal election.
http://www.sra.gov.uk/publications/consultation/IKF_consultation/IKF_doc is a PDF file titled "Integrated Kent Franchise Train Service Specification", a document published by the Strategic Rail Authority.
It is a proposal for a new train timetable for the whole of the South Eastern commuter lines from London to the Kent coast.
The main goals are to provide a regular and more reliable services. Regularity would be achieved by having two distinct types of service — those that run all day and those that run in the peak hours only. Reliability would be improved through the "critical" junctions of London Bridge and Lewisham. I get the impression that the trains would run at the same minutes past each hour, rather than the present 22-minutely cycle with ad-hoc variations.
Services would have two digit identifications with a terminal prefix (CX, CS, VE, BL and SP), for Charing Cross, Cannon Street, Victoria (east), Blackfriars and St. Pancras.
The plan includes 10 tph that would run to St. Pancras via the Channel Tunnel Rail Link (CTRL).
I hope to post more details when I have had time to study the 60-page proposal; it looks very interesting.
I hope to post more details when I have had time to study the 60-page proposal; it looks very interesting.
This is a summary of what I have learned from the Integrated Kent Franchise train service specification.
Important note: Core services run all day, and are expressed in TPH. Peak extras are expressed in TPD.
TPD means trains per day during the 3-hour peak period, or the 2-hour peak period on the CTRL.
The plan provides the following services, summarized by London terminal.
Core services (running all day) as follows (in TPH):
VE Victoria 12
BL Blackfriars 2
CX Charing Cross 16
CS Cannon Street 14
SP St. Pancras 4
Additional peak services as follows (in TPD):
VE Victoria 7
BL Blackfriars 6
CX Charing Cross 11
CS Cannon Street 14
SP St. Pancras 10
Based on the above, max hourly services to Charing Cross and Cannon Street would be reduced, depending on how the peak extras were distributed over the three-hour peak periods. A reduced service is made possible by the CTRL.
The plan provides the following services, summarized by zone:
Inner suburban core 24 TPH
Longer distance core 24 TPH
Inner suburban peak extras 12 TPD
Longer distance peak extras 36 TPD
The core inner suburban services mostly go to Cannon Street; the core longer distance services mostly go to Charing Cross.
St. Pancras trains will run via the CTRL, and they are called CTRL DS (Channel Tunnel Rail Link Domestic Services).
CTRL DS will use high-speed rolling stock.
CTRL DS services would be as follows.
Core services:
SP01 Faversham and Broadstairs 1 TPH
SP02 Faversham and Broadstairs 1 TPH
SP03 Ashford, Ramsgate and Margate 1 TPH
SP04 Ashford and Folkestone 1 TPH
Peak extras:
SP05 Faversham and Broadstairs 2 TPD
SP06 Faversham and Broadstairs 1 TPD
SP07 Rochester 2 TPD
SP08 Rochester 1 TPD
In peak hours SP03 and SP04 divide at Ashford, 6 cars going to Folkestone and 6 cars going to Ramsgate and Margate.
For safety reasons, high-speed CTRL DS trains will not run through the Shakespeare tunnel from Folkestone to Dover.
Responses to ikfresponses@sra.gov.uk or by mail, no later than 23 April 2004.
I take it that 'BL' routes are those terminating at Blackfriars, and that there will still be some additional Kent-bound services through the Snow Hill tunnel if Thameslink 2000 ever comes to pass. (The proposal is to serve both Dartford and Ashford under that franchise, which is discrete from the new Kent franchise.) Would the reduction of Kentish CX and CS services through London Bridge enable significantly more (or at least faster) Thameslink trains, without requiring the rebuilding and expansion of the Borough junction?
Does the document make any mention of when it hopes to implement this timetable?
I agree that those coastal areas will benefit greatly from the CTRL DS, and the population of Ashford is growing very fast.
some additional Kent-bound services through the Snow Hill tunnel if Thameslink 2000 ever comes to pass.
The report makes only a passing mention of Thameslink 2000 and the service plan certainly doesn't take it into account. I don't know if Thameslink 2000 services would be additional to the South Eastern services or merely replacements. My guess is that the entire service plan would be revised before the opening of Thameslink 2000.
Would the reduction of Kentish CX and CS services through London Bridge enable significantly more (or at least faster) Thameslink trains, without requiring the rebuilding and expansion of the Borough junction?
The reduction of CX and CS services is based only my own counting. It isn't actually mentioned in the report. Perhaps they left a few empty slots for Thameslink. But the emphasis of the report is on the need for regular and reliable services.
Does the document make any mention of when it hopes to implement this timetable?
I didn't see any but we can safely assume that it won't be implemented before the completion of CTRL, due in 2007!
Since Connex was relieved of its duties, the franchise has been operated by "South Eastern Trains" which is a body created by the Strategic Rail Authority (SRA), as a temporary measure.
The SRA plans to rewrite the timetable for the entire franchise, something that has not been done for 40 years.
The Thameslink 2000 project, if approved, would provide more tracks through London Bridge, and grade separated junctions. But it is unlikely to be implemented before 2012. So the completion of CTRL and the introduction of CTRL Domestic Services in 2007 is a good opportunity to introduce more regular services throughout the South Eastern area.
The purpose of the plan is to make the best use of existing resources, so no serious infrastructure changes are planned.
The plan is described in the PDF document http://www.sra.gov.uk/publications/consultation/IKF_consultation/IKF_doc
Some lines would be served by fewer terminals, which would undoubtedly be the cause of complaints by a vocal minority. SRA is open to suggestions based on reasoned arguments.
I have counted the trains arriving in London from the South Eastern Trains lines between 7 AM and 10 AM, and compared the totals with the SRA proposed service plan (3 hours of core service plus peak period extras). Here are the results.
Trains per three-hour peak periodPresentPlanned
VE Victoria (East) 36 42
BL Blackfriars 17 12
CX Charing Cross 67 59
CS Cannon Street 52 56
SP St. Pancras CTRL Domestic Services 0 18
Total 172 187
Some CX trains are marked "LB" meaning "London Bridge station stops may be omitted if no platform is available". This may seem surprising for a station that handles 269,000 passengers per day, but the platform shortage is not new.
On the whole I like this plan, but I prefer my own plan for Charing Cross and Cannon Street which is operationally simpler and would drastically reduce the number of trains whose paths would cross.
I would separate the Charing Cross and Cannon Street lines through London Bridge by having Charing Cross serve the fast tracks and Cannon Street serve the slow tracks. People wanting the other terminal would change at London Bridge.
To allow all trains to stop at London Bridge, resolving the platform shortage, I would have platforms 4, 5 and 6, serving Charing Cross, operate the same way as platforms 1, 2 and 3, serving Cannon Street. The middle platform would be used reversibly in the peak direction to allow plenty of dwell time. Track 7 (which has no platform) would no longer be needed.
There are other things which look bad in this proposal, but I'm going to have to read it again to make more detailed comments.
I think they plan to procure new, faster, rolling stock for CTRL Domestic Services, to run off both third rail and catenary.
it would break regulations to run them between Folkestone and Dover.
They do not plan to run CTRL Domestic Services to Dover until such time as safety issues can be resolved.
I'm going to have to read it again to make more detailed comments.
I am very pleased that you are taking a look at this plan, because it's quite far-reaching and has implications elsewhere.
One important aspect of this plan is the concept of having two types of service — "core" services that run at the same minutes past each hour all day including the peak hours, and "peak period extra" services where trains are added as needed.
Some people are saying that the existing (highly irregular) timetable has evolved over the years and it's the best that can be done. Those are of course people who would be inconvenienced in some way. In other words "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".
The Hayes line would suffer from both complaints. Instead of a train every 22 minutes to Charing Cross and another every 22 minutes to Cannon Street, they would get a train every 15 minutes to Cannon Street and no service to Charing Cross.
Even that might not be too bad if trains were lengthened from 10 cars to 12, but the plan makes no mention of longer trains.
The SRA has tried to simplify the timetable, which now looks good on paper but it is bound to upset a lot of people.
LTUC's main objections are:
1. SRA overestimated ridership of the new Channel Tunnel Rail Link Domestic Services, and cut "classic" services too much.
2. SRA has re-routed the services via London Bridge to Charing Cross and Cannon Street terminals by serving some lines from Cannon Street only and others from Charing Cross only, contrary to passenger demand, which is split 50/50 between the two on each line. This simplification is called "unworkable" because it would cause severe overcrowding at London Bridge station, where passengers would have to change trains to reach the terminal of their choice.
LTUC recommends keeping the existing peak hour suburban services until an origin and destination survey is done in 2010, or failing that, re-thinking that part of the plan based on providing both Charing Cross and Cannon street service on each line.
London Bridge high level station is so congested that it would be too risky to impose such a drastic change of service until such time as the bottleneck can be relieved, as it would be by Thameslink 2000 (which could be completed by 2012 at earliest). Meanwhile the SRA should stick with the "untidy" peak-hour timetable that actually does work. It's untidy in that it lacks regularity and the only discernable pattern is that some trains run every 22 minutes throughout a 66 minute "hour".
Apart from the peak services via London Bridge, the rest of the SRA plan can be used as a starting point.
Meanwhile they should complete the suburban platform lengthening program (from 10 to 12-car trains) begun under British Rail, which was abandoned when nearly complete. That would be the cheapest and most effective way to increase capacity.
I have studied the SRA proposals in detail, and I agree with the LTUC objections and most of their conclusions.
SRA wants to run regular trains at the same minutes past each hour throughout the day, with peak hour extras added as needed. This would result in unbalanced peak hour loads, with some trains being more overcrowded than others. It would be better to deviate from the regular pattern in the peak hours, as does the present untidy peak hour service. The official policy of simplifying services is outweighed in this case by the need to match supply and demand.
Tuesday Las Vegas Sun article says 30-day testing may start this week; must be completed successfully before open to the public.
The article mentions several startup glitches that have occurred; also mentions that the prime contractor, Bombardier Transportation, could face financial penalties for missing a March 31 deadline.
Peace,
ANDEE
I am happy he is OK and hopefully he has learned a valuable, if not hard, lesson in safety.
After all, why would they tell you that you account will be closed in 72 hours for "improper usage" when a real email will inform you that your account will be terminated effective immediately?
":)"
" Hi!"
And the kicker...
"Your website"
Of course I had to open those, it could be relevant and/or important, but Macs are immune to the majority of viruses.
DO NOT open the attachment!
It was from an address : administration@qc.edu!!!!!!!!
It was also about improper usage. I checked the attachment and it had a virus on it. Erased it. How theu got hold of my email address is beyond me since I never used it.
Although, not a virus, I almost fell for a scam because it was so convincing. I use PAYPAL when paying for ebay auctions I've won.
I received an e-mail stating that my security needs to be updated. I saw various fields for social security and credit card numbers to be filled in. I knew something was fishy. So I logged onto PAYPAL, and saw a notice about a scam going around prompting customers to give sensitive information to them. They warned about greetings such as "Dear Paypal customer" etc. Sure enough, that's the way the e-mail began.
The entire e-mail right down to the Paypal logo and copyright look so convincing. The giveaway was the URL in the address bar. It didn't say www.paypal.com/, there was a bunch of numbers and slashes.
BEWARE ! Don't fall for this and other scams !
Bill "Newkirk"
I hope nobody falls for this garbage.
Regards,
Jimmy
Robert
I think that it's because the yellow is on for such a short time, that they decided not to bother with it.
The light is NOT yellow, nor is it orange: it is AMBER... and methinks that they do not have LEDs in exactly the right shade of amber to suit them.
Elias
Is it just an LED, or is it a High Intensity LED.
Traffic and Signal Lights are High Intensity LEDs: you cannot even look into them close up. (I saw some at a display of lightbars at an ambulance convention in Bismarck) I do not recall if I saw any amber ones. ToW Trucks might like amber ones, and IIRC, police cars to have amber flashers on them, but I do not know if they are LEDs.
Elias
What they really need to do is replace a lot of those "S" with LEDs like the new signals. They are so much easier to see at a distance.
Also, the amber ST aspects on the Sea Beach have been replaced with white. Much better, because the yellow outshined or blended with the red at a distance. The red and white together create a "pink lightning" effect from a distance. Unmistakeable.
Actually they're doing better than that.
Ride the Sea Beach or Flushing lines, and not only do you see LED timed signal lights, but instead of displaying "S" they show the speed. On the Sea Beach I think they're yellow and on the Flushing Line N/O 111 they're lunar white (which I guess in LED terms is just white).
It's not "on station time" its just red because its a GT signal and you haven't run the Grade Timer. And whenever the signal is red for any reason, and there's no train directly ahead, it will display the ST number aspect.
This is why you can clear it at faster than the ST number speed -- you are clearing it on GT. (There are seperate timers for ST & GT)
The ST number is lit only as a peculiarity of the lighting circuit.
* Some even newer signals, as on the West End have the number on the red even as the yellow has the S. I guess that is telling you what the penalty will be if you do niot clear the first shot sucessfully.
In order, we have a GT30, a Yellow auto, an ST blank, and a R/20 auto.
Theory says, if I do 30 when I pass the GT30, the yellow clears to green and the red clears to yellow and I don't need to touch the brake until I'm in the station.
Past practice says, if I do 25 when passing the GT30, the yellow clears to green ~20 feet ahead of the train (and the red goes to yellow) and I can take power until I'm in the station.
Monday said, I did 23 when passing the GT30, the Yellow did NOT clear and the R/20 cleared with a speedometer reading of 12mph, approx 30 feet ahead of the train.
what's BS about it? when a pinball machine fails, nobody dies.
how would you have them respond ?
What's an ST blank? You mean a fixed sign reading ST?
The Yellow automatic also has an "S" aspect, right?
I did 23 when passing the GT30, the Yellow did NOT clear and the R/20 cleared with a speedometer
reading of 12mph, approx 30 feet ahead of the train.
Again, assuming that the yellow was in fact Y/S ?
Although in theory the "20" pertains only to Station Time,
which would only be in effect if there is a train ahead,
I suspect what is happening here is that the same U (timer
relay) is being shared for both Station Time and for the second
shot of the Grade Time.
The way 2-shot timers work is there is a timer associated with the
track circuit in approach to the Y/S. It starts running when that
track circuit gets occupied. Sometimes there is a cut-section
just for timing. Look carefully and see if there is an insulated
joint at the GT30 fixed sign. If the timer on the Y/S finishes
before you pass it, then the next signal, which was R, clears.
If you miss the first shot, however, the timer on that next signal
starts to run and that is the timer which will clear it.
The timer clearing is based on total time taken in traversing the
block. So, if you passed that Y/S at 23, and it didn't clear
because the timer relay is slow, then you were going too fast
to clear the 20 MPH timer. That your speedometer read 12 when
it cleared doesn't really indicate anything. You could come
charging up to it at full speed, stop a few feet short and wait.
Then you would be doing 0 MPH when it cleared.
It very much sounds like the first timer relay is slow. However,
the key question is where does the timing section begin? Is
there an IJ at the GT30 sign, or does it begin back at the
previous signal?
The Yellow automatic also has an "S" aspect, right? Nope. Just a yellow.
It very much sounds like the first timer relay is slow. However,
the key question is where does the timing section begin? Is
there an IJ at the GT30 sign, or does it begin back at the
previous signal?
The previous signal (the last signal passed not mentioned already) is a Green auto approx 15 feet beyond the GT30 sign. So yes, there is an IJ at approx the same position as the GT30 sign itself.
Is there a head for the "S" ?
Are you going 30 or under when you pass the GT30 sign?
Are you going 30 or under when you pass the GT30 sign?
Yes. It hardly seems fair to whine about the signal if I'm going faster than the posted speed. Usually, I'm doing about 25 as I pass the GT30 and 23 as I pass the Yellow auto. In the past, the Yellow would clear as I approached it; now it doesn't, forcing me to slow up even more as I take the curve in the 'tunnel' where the R/20 is.
Right! :-)
I have no ready reply ... How 'bout that GT on the Brighton - ever start behaving again?
David
wayne
It's also much less critical.
Arti
BTW, incandescant bulbs for traffic signal use are rated in hours; that is they can be illuminated for a set period of time.
I formerly worked for the City of York, Penna. and know the crews who work in the Electrical Bureau maintaining the City's traffic signals and municipal fire alarm equipment. Once each spring, the City electrical crews would go to each intersection, clean the lenses and replace all of the bulbs. Where they now have LEDs, I understand they still have to clean the lenses each year. They just don't have to install new bulbs in the reds or greens. This stuff is all based on guidelines from the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania.
Matthew Mummert
My guess is that the amber LED's are not bright enough. I have seen some amber ones elsewhere (Yonkers I believe) and the amber LED's aren't bright enough. The same goes here on Long Island, you have red and green LED's, but incandescent ambers.
Bill "Newkirk"
But here's the rub ... BECAUSE a "yellow" LED *REALLY* isn't "yellow" but rather red and green which tricks the EYE into believing the two wavelengths "seen" are yellow, but they're REALLY red and green. And because the infrareds and reds will outweigh the green output (greens have ALWAYS been a bit less in candlepower or they require TWICE the energy) then the "yellow" "seen" by a "motorperson" would be questionable. If you look at a yellow LED long enough, it seems, it tends to trick your eyeball by becoming ANOTHER color! Like maybe red, or maybe it's orange. For anyone who has visual impairments, this has, in the past proven to be a problem.
For some amusing reason, silicon REFUSES to emit a *PURE* yellow rather than an additive color eye-trick. This is probably why ... BLUE is for real, expensive as all getout, but still ain't up to any real intensity. So don't look for aspects to change anytime soon. :)
The article stated that untill such approval is granted the existing incandescent lamps must be used.
I'am sure this will be settled eventually. but when you consider the short time yellow signal are used in traffic lights, there isn't much saving to be had anyway.
I don't think so... the LEDs in the advertizing board in the drug store have bright and dim positions. I don't think they actually fade between them.
Elias
I enjoy explaining the differences between the various technologies. A pet peeve of mine is when people confuse Light Emitting Diodes with Liquid Crystal Displays
These are clearly LEDs, and they clearly do have two intensities to them. They only display in red.
The sign is about 16 x 30 inches, with the LEDs as close together as possible. The only aspects that they display is ON, OFF, and DIM.
Elias
Robert
Guess what? The conductor closed the doors in our faces! I know they have schedules to follow, but is this how you treat an MTA customer?
If so, then management should be forced to ride the subway, instead of being driven around (they are too busy to be driving)in their "executive" cars, and have doors shut in their face in the name of a schedule that doesn't exist anyway.
I've had conductors slam the door in my face because I was courteous enough to wait for the people to get off first, rather than pushing my way in before they were off. I was standing to the immediate side of the door and the conductor closed the door as I was starting to go in.
If such a rule were enforced, you would always be able to board a train (but not necessarily the first train to depart).
As things stand there is a free-for-all, and considerate people might wait indefinitely while others push their way on.
Besides going out of turn, those inconsiderate pushers can actually prevent people from getting off.
On the London tube, the announcer would always say "let 'em off first please", then wait before saying "mind the doors".
Door discipline should somehow be instilled and enforced, in order to reduce dwell times.
I and another passenger stayed with the child at the next stop til the mother could come. We told the conductor to radio back that the kid was ok and would be waiting with escorts at the next stop.
The kid looked like a ghost in the interim, and they were clearly very happy to be back with each other. It seemed a nightmare for both.
The conductor didn't care a wit. I was surprised at this since most do care, and will go out of their way to help.
Has anyone else seen the poster in the dispatcher offices about the majority of assaults on employees coming at transfer stations? It used to hang in plain site at South Ferry on the 1, but I have seen it elsewhere.
Anyone know the stats on that one?
It was a weird dream.
Disregard my other post, there was a DUMB error.
Unless it was his last trip before the lunch period at 179th st, and the C/R needs the extra 20 seconds for his lunch.
There is such a thing as mometarily holding trains for a connection if the train being held does not impede any service behine it and the connection is being made outside rush hour. It was nearly 7:30 PM when it happened and rush hour is over at this point.
Argh? Policy is that a C/R must hold for a connection during off hours if it is obvious one should be made.
Then they should change the regulations, or start calling us passengers, not 'customers.'
www.forgotten-ny.com
1. They must not be closed until they have been fully open for ten seconds, and
2. They must be held open for connections (if there's a train arriving to connect with) during off-peak hours.
David
Please elaborate. Which statutes, and what do they say?
David
I've posted this before.
NYS Railroad Law Art 6
§ 239. Trains to come to full stop. All trains upon elevated railroads shall come to a full stop before any passenger shall be permitted to leave such trains; and no train on such railroad shall be permitted to start until every passenger desiring to depart therefrom shall have left the train, provided such passenger has manifested his intention to so depart by moving toward or upon the platform of any car; nor until every passenger upon the platform or station at which such train has stopped, and desiring to board or enter such cars, shall have actually boarded or entered the same, but no person shall be permitted to enter or board any train after due notice from an authorized employee of such corporation that such train is full and that no more passengers can be then received.
A. The term "elevated railroads." Evidently this statute was meant to apply to els, of which there are currently...none. Please find one that has to do with the New York City subway system, if one exists.
B. "...provided such passenger has manifested his intention to so depart by moving toward or upon the platform of any car..." It's been many, many moons since a New York City railcar, elevated or otherwise, has had an entering/exiting platform. There's just no physical way for a Conductor to see whether people want to exit his/her operating car, let alone every door on either side in the entire train.
C. "...nor until every passenger upon the platform or station at which such train has stopped, and desiring to board or enter such cars, shall have actually boarded or entered the same,..." How is the Conductor to know for certain that a passenger standing near one of the doorways is actually intending to board? The southbound express platform of the 59th Street station, where the incident in question happened, is served by two routes: #4 and #5. Each route goes to a different place in Brooklyn (at least during rush hours), so it is entirely conceivable that a passenger standing on the platform, even near a subway car doorway, is not intending to board. Should the train sit there forever? Should it sit there until the Conductor has left his/her position, walked over to the passengers, asked them whether they intend to board or not, then returned to his/her position?
It should also be noted that the original post mentioned that the incident took place in the morning. Was it during the morning rush (the original post was made at 9:07 AM on a Friday)? If so, then there's a good chance that a train was closely following the one in the station, and there was another one behind that one, and so on. Should all passengers on the train in the station as well as those on following trains and on platforms all along the Lexington Avenue Line be delayed? I've had doors close in my face (at least one time after getting off a train and stepping aside to allow others to exit, then trying to reboard). I get mad for a moment (at myself, as well, for living up to "no good deed goes unpunished"), and then I get over it.
David
The term "elevated railroad" is defined more broadly in other sections of Article 6. It refers to construction under as well as above streets.
Please find one that has to do with the New York City subway system,
So far as I know, NYCT does not enjoy any general exemption from NYS law. The MTA's only general exemption is from local health, fire and safety codes.
How is the Conductor to know for certain that a passenger standing near one of the doorways is actually intending to board?
If the law is applicable, then it's the TA's responsibility to obey it. I'm sure TA's management can come up with a creative solution which would defeat its intent.
BTW, the TA is already in violation of state law regarding this particular statute.
NYS Railraod Law Art 6
§ 242. Sections to be printed and posted. The officers and board of directors of such railroad corporations shall cause copies of sections two hundred and thirty-nine, two hundred and forty and two hundred and forty-one to be printed conspicuously and posted in the depots or stations and in each car belonging to them.
If the subways truly were a railroad, it'd be getting as much state aid as the Long Island Rail Road and MetroNorth Railroad do. The fact that customers pay more than 60% of the cost for their ride shows that is truly not the case.
David
Better yet, he could sue to recover whatever financial damage he has personally incurred.
You are a passenger when you are on the platform waiting for or riding a train to get from Point A to Point B.
Then they should change the regulations, or start calling us passengers, not 'customers.'
Again I ask a Very Stupid Question:
Is the one more person who wants the train (and would benefit from a hold) really more important that the 2,000 people already on the train (who would actually be deprived of service because of a hold)?
To put it another way: Is there a legitimate reason to punish 2,000 people for the benefit of one person? Do the 2,000 people owe anything to the one last person?
There are at least 30 doors most trains, and let's be generous and say that people all board slowly, one at a time, a second apiece. On the average, is the extra .03 seconds per person going to be noticed? Compounded over a 20-stop route, are the 2000 folks on board going to be punished by the extra .6 seconds per trip?
We're apparently not talking about holding for passengers running down the stairs or absent-mindedly walking alongside a train to pick their lucky doorway. We're talking about folks waiting paitiently and being denied the ride they've waited for. It doesn't happen often, but it does happen.
Mark
Whether it's noticed is irrelevant. It's still there.
My questions stand: Is there a legitimate reason to punish 2,000 people for the benefit of one person? Do the 2,000 people owe anything to the one last person? If the answer is "yes," then each of us has every incentive to be that last person, and thus effectively shut down the entire system. (First, the train is not permitted to move until I'm on it. Second, someone else will arrive, and the train is not permitted to move until that person is on it. And so on....)
Then why stop at all? Your equation is: 1 person saves maybe 8 minutes vs. 2000 people spend an extra 2 seconds waiting, i.e. 8000 seconds wasted. So, as you say it's saving 480 man-seconds versus losing 8000 man-seconds.
At a station which isn't very busy there might only be a dozen people waiting for the train, and a dozen people waiting to get off. Ok, say there are 30 people waiting to either get on or get off at a given station, out of 1000 people on the train.
Why don't we just blow the stop altogether? We save perhaps 30 seconds to a minute on the overall trip for each stop skipped, that is 45 seconds times 1000 passengers, or 12 man-hours total (!), and each skip only inconveniences a few percent of the total number of people in the system - a total of perhaps 30 passengers times 10 minutes, or 5 man-hours total. So if there are, say, fewer than a dozen people waiting on the platform, they just skip the station altogether. Let 'em wait for the next train, and the people who want to get off can get off at the next stop and backtrack on foot.
Is this what you suggest?
Two questions:
1. How many passengers from the E wanted to connect with that F (i.e. how many would have been helped by a hold)?
2. How many passengers were already on board that F (i.e. how many would have been delayed by a hold)?
A comparison of the two answers reveals that holding for a connection usually results in a net disbenefit, because far more people are forced to wait than want the connection.
Or are the handful of people who want to transfer from the first train really more important than the hundreds already on board the second train?
3. How much longer would the passengers on the F have to wait if the F had held for a connection?
4. In what degree of comfort would those passengers have had to wait? (Seated or standing? Did the train have HVAC?)
5. How much longer would the connecting passengers have had to wait if the F hadn't held for a connection?
6. In what degree of comfort would those passengers have had to wait? (Seated or standing? Did the station platform have HVAC?)
A few weeks ago, I was on a B from Brooklyn, bound for a 6th Avenue local stop. The B met a V at West 4th (its third stop, and there were hardly any passengers on the train yet), but the V did not hold. We waiting passengers were then informed that, due to a problem at Jay Street, the F was not running, as I'm sure the V C/R knew. The V runs at 11-minute headways at that time of day.
Often in the morning rush, I'll find myself on a crush loaded 1/9 train, running late (and slow) because of excessive dwell times. As we're leaving 79th, a mostly empty express will pass us. We arrive at 72nd and are greeted by the express closing its doors. If that express had waited, it would have sucked up everybody on the local bound for Times Square, affording both them and the remaining local passengers a much quicker ride and allowing the local to make up time without bypassing every single local station south of Times Square.
And then there are the many forms of GO-induced transfers, like the one I mentioned in another post and countless others. We're not talking one or two people trying to transfer -- we're talking a whole bunch of passengers who are already being asked to go out of their way, often with little or no advance warning.
Obviously, at a systemwide level, it sometimes does make sense to wait for connections. The problem is that crews have no reason to care about the systemwide level -- their concern and only concern is keeping their own train to schedule, never mind what happens to the passengers or the other trains.
Who says he'll be able to make it onto the next train either? He'll stand to the side to let the passengers off and the C/R will close the doors before he has a chance to enter.
Yesturday the A came early at HBch, and I was just coming down the stairs. The C/R looked at me and closed the doors just as I stepped off the last step. And I had been running, so it was obvious I was making an effort (otherwise I wouldn't care).
I normally wouldn't be annoyed except for the fact he was early and looked right at me before he closed the doors.
I'd ride the last car of the LIRR train leaving Flatbush. I'd poke my head out of the conductor's window (because he was controling the doors from elsewhere on the train).
I had my big bunch of keys, my yellow flashlight on a belt loop, and a yellow hard hat on my head. People kept running up to the train after the doors were closed, or even after the train was moving, looking at me as if *I* were going to open the doors for them.
The helpless, shrugged shoulders expression that I delivered to them must really have pissed them off, what with their thinking that *I* was actually a train operator.
Oh well... once the indication is given, the conductor can do no more for you that I could have done. And remember... The brain does not work that fast. He looked, saw his doors clear and pushed his buttons, even as he saw you, he cannot retract the movements already initiated.
Elias
He looked at me before he looked forward and closed the doors.
I didn't say anything to him because I didn't get to work late because I always leave early anyway, for cases like this.
Ok, I'll give you what you said though, even though it was as I described. There was no excuse though as the original poster was standing next to the doors.
But I had to laugh later on as a southbound (D) cried because I was holding him to scheduled times and taking away from his lunch. The only way I was taking away form his lunch was if he got to the terminal early everyday, and left passengers waiting everyday.
> The helpless, shrugged shoulders expression that I delivered to them must really have pissed them off, what with their thinking that *I* was actually a train operator.
And you enjoyed it, didn't you? ;-)
IMO, that's a mistake. If the customer timetable gives a timepoint, customers have every right to expect that a train won't depart that timepoint early. Sure, you could say that customers should get to the station a few minutes early -- but sometimes that's impossible due to tight connections from other trains. Last week I was on a B train that left Columbus Circle a minute or two early, giving customers who arrived at the platform on time an unexpected ten-minute wait for the next train -- assuming it wasn't running late due to heavy loading.
An A pulled in in parallel with the G. It didn't hold for the obvious connection, at late night headways, during a GO that turns a one-seat ride into a four-seat ride (or a five-seat ride in the opposite direction).
The C/R on the next A tried to do the same thing, but we ignored his protestations and held the doors for the connecting passengers.
Were you at a crowded section of the platform?
Could you have stood in an area where you would have been with those who had boarded already?
How long did it take for the following train to arrive?
Is "one more person" who wants to board the train really more important than the 2,000 people already on the train?
But on a ten car train, there are 32 or 40 doors to get on. If you see that one door is particularly busy, such as one that is next to a stairway or exit, why not walk down to the next doorway to board? Is there really that much of a difference where you get on as long as you're on?
After a sufficient amount of time has passed (the rule says at least ten seconds, but the C/R may need more), the conductor must at least make an attempt to close down in order to keep the train running on time.
I changed from the IRT #6 and was waiting for either the "N" or "W" to Astoria. A "W" pulled in and people started pouring out of the train - most people stepped aside to let them off.. The C/R started to close the doors WHILE people were still getting off and before most people had a chance to board... The doors closed and a very spacious train departed for Queensboro Plaza.
In the C/R's defense there was such a mass of people on the platform that day that he probably could not tell the difference between those getting off, those waiting to get on, and those who were waiting for an "R" train and had no intention to board. I had to wait for two more trains to pass before finally getting on - got home very angry and over an hour past the time I had expected to be home...
That experience sent me back to using the 34th Street Ferry for a while ;-)
There is never a good excuse to close the doors on people who were already on the platform waiting for the train to arrive.
In retrospect, nothing beats the laziness as the Main Street tower. I swaer, they must party all night.
That because there already is a funding stream for roads. Their called motor fuel taxes, registration, operator license, fees and other user fees.
John
Peace,
ANDEE
I use a free county library ISP. Nothing fancy.
http://www.chesapeake.net/~cambronj/wmata/d-route/D13-D99.htm
John
As I recall it was put in to allow trains to inter and leave the yard without fouling the station platform when changing ends to head out to or return from the Bowie extension when built. It would also allow trains to inter and leave the yard without passing through the platform at the station to and from the west.
John
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2229985268&category=4152
So much for the cards to be released on Saturday.
Robert
As far as freight goes -- there isn't much down there except for a lot of retail. Retail and freight aren't a winning combination.
CG
And for passenger service, Roosevelt Field Mall, the Source Mall, Nassau Community College, Nassau Collesium. All these places would benefit greatly from constant, fast, and reliable rail service. As of now, the majority of the buses only run weekdays, and those that run saturdays have a limited schedule, and sundays, well, consider youself lucky to be on a bus route that has sunday service. And the weekday buses, they get caught up in all the damn rush hour traffic.
On topic, I don't see how a state's Governor can issue an order like that and expect it to stick. Where did you read about this?
Your pal,
Fred
>>>NYAR crews were never qualified over this route. The only time NYAR was in the yard was the first year the circus train came to town after NYAR took over freight operations. At that time, it was operated with LIRR crews. All subsequent circus trains have been handled by LIRR.
The final nail in the Mitchell Field freight coffin was a deal between LIRR, NYAR and NY State whereby NYAR would "give up" all rights to the yard, and in return, would get Hicksville yard.<<<
It became offical in 2002 (STB filing):
>>>On May 21, 2002, the Long Island Rail Road Company (LIRR), a Class II rail common carrier, filed with the Surface Transportation Board (Board) a petition under 49 U.S.C. 10502 for exemption from 49 U.S.C. 10903 to discontinue service over a line of railroad between milepost 18.8 in Garden City and milepost 21.0 in Garden City, Nassau County, NY, a distance of 2.2 miles. (1) The line traverses U.S. Postal Service Zip Code 11530 and includes no stations<<<
There is not "so much freight potential and passenger potential"!!! Whether Pataki signed an order or not the Central Branch would be exactly the same as it is now!! I know you'll disagree with me on this BUT you are looking at it from the eyes of a railfan!!!
Face it, the central, especially the secondary, is something I will NOT get over as it should not be neglected like it is now.
One thing I am intrigued at is how come the people of Garden City didn't have enough clout over the Ringling Bros B & B Circus people?
Because if they didn't, they'd build a new siding for the train in Floral Park, and have an elephant parade right down Stewart Avenue to the Coliseum!!!
Also, they could put in a stop for RFM on the industrial spur. Re-instate shuttle bus service and have it run from the train station, to the bus terminal, and then around the mall stopping at multiple stores and parking lots, etc.
They could also extend the industrial spur to say...the source mall and have trains run there too. Re-build the wye at CLP and have trains run from HTC to the shopping area, and the other line from HTC to NCC and the collesium. And then of course trains from NCC and the collesium to Jamaica or wherever.
That'd definately get ridership. Faster and more reliable than the bus.
No, those buses go to Hempstead Station, a very short distance away. That is what I meant when I posted that. I wouldn't wish my worst enemy a LI Bus trip to Jamaica. The automatic announcements every two blocks is enough to make any sane person go crazy. (although I did enjoy the Hempstead to Jamaica ride during the old Bee Line days)
Oh cmmon, during the week it aint so bad. The N22 to Jamaica during the week is pretty good actually. Now weekends are another story....
There are too many cars on Long Island already.
Looks like he is considering leaving!!! Read This thread. (John is LITransit)
Also check out this one and this one
As for passengers, the entire shopping district, NCC, Nassau Collesium.
It definately is worth re-opening.
Also, having it run to HTC would also help move people quicker and ease the crowding on the buses.
Oh, and where would the RFM stop be? Simple, where the current line crosses Zeckendorf BLVD. On the northwest side of the crossing, there is more than ample space for a small station. Now, how are people going to get to the mall itself. Well, if I were being narrowminded and not asserting myself to think like I'm sure some here would, I'd just say it wouldn't work cuz they'd have to work. I've got a better idea though. A shuttle bus. Running from the station then around the mall, stopping at several entrances to the mall and their stores. Also, it'd connect to the current bus terminal.
Why can't we use the Roosvelt Av crossing? There is a traffic light there already. It doesn't hold traffic up too bad. Have lights working with the crossing and the red light would only last about 10 seconds longer. How? Simple. The line parallels Quentine Roosevelt BLVD.
The light would turn green for straight and right turn lanes only. At that time, the train would proceed across Stewart Av(the light would be timed by trigger to work to keep the train moving non-stop). Once the train clears the Stewart Av, the left turn light turns green as well. Then from there, normal traffic light operations resume.
["Hell, I bet you haven't even seen RFM."]
Haven't seen Roosevelt Field. I was there when it didn't even have a roof, it was outdoors!!! And I was there last week taking my son to a birthday party at the idiotic Build a Bear place. I was at the old Hempstead Bus Terminal (a block away from the present one) when these were the typical buses there!!! We used to take those old Macks to Hempstead to see the dirty movies at the Fine Arts Theater there.
Now tell me. Do you think people with multiple packages are going to take them on a shuttle bus to a train station to take a train to another train station where they either get a bus or their parked car when they could have taken their car or bus to Roosevelt Field in the first place? And spend a small fortune doing it too? What about kids and strollers? This isn't Manhattan. Look at how many people park in the valet parking there. Many are too lazy to walk to their cars.
Also, all this talk about massive gridlock and traffic in Nassau is just that, talk. I drive in Nassau all the time, and with the exception of some of the parkways during rush hour, I rarely am stuck in traffic.
Now, if you want an example of how people on LI use the train to major places on LI check out the LIRR Belmont Park Branch. When you have attendance of over 10,000 at the track and parking lots that are filled you can count the people on the trains with both hands!!!
I can't believe this discussion has gone on as long as it has. The point about the lack of traffic in Nassau is spot on. Any time you run into traffic in Nassau, you just go around.
It seems that the only complaint about traffic comes from two guys who don't drive. When I was NK's age, I was a bus rider too and thought bus service should be expanded (I was shocked when the N5 extension to Oceanside didn't catch on -- it got about 5 passengers per day!!!), because all I knew was bus riding. Once I moved away and came back with a car, using the bus to go anywhere seems absurd. The city via the LIRR -- almost always, but within LI I always go by car unless I'm in the mood for a little transit.
Any kind of transit development around the "Hub" is destined for boondoggle status of epic proportions. Who would take it -- other than the people who are taking busses now? The only problem voiced about the current bus service is that some of the busses are "near SRO" on weekends. In plain english, that means there are empty seats. There are 2 or 3 busses an hour between Hempstead and RFM on Sundays, probably hauling 60 or so people. For this I need to build a rail line?????
Finally -- what's the obsession with the old Garden City secondary anyway. Wouldn't any transit line going from Hempstead to RFM/Hub be far more useful running along Westbury Blvd out to Mitchell Field? You'd serve far more people that way and you'd avoid the Garden City protestors too.
Sometimes railfans just don't get it. They see an abandoned line and they envision all sorts of service on it. There's a reason the Garden City secondary, Lower Montauk, CLP-West Hempstead connector and countless others were abandoned -- nobody used them!!! Not then, not now.
When I was NK's age, I couldn't wait to turn 17 and be able to drive. I also believed that the driving age should be abolished. I still believe that.
Also, if I wanted to do this from a railfan POV, I'd want to keep the secondary as is, that way I could walk the tracks in peace. No. I want to atleast TRY to get cars off the road, however, some people here are so friggin narrow minded.
On the contrary, the timetable for the LIC Branch used to be on every single individual station timetable.
Yeah, but you can't do this on the train!!!
Last week I bought 6.666 gallons of 93 at $2.019, so $1.799 is meh. Besides, adjusted for inflation, gasoline is still cheaper than in the 1970s. All that expensive gasoline will do is encourage development of biodiesel and hybrid vehicles.
Reason #2 Bush will hack the elaction
Without demonstrating how this would affect anything else, the point is useless.
Reason #3 the average American will no longer be able to afford to drive in the future.
No evidence provided.
I paid $.349 per gallon in the 1970s. But I'm not earning 5 times what I was earning then. Is the average worker?
Still, I do agree with you. Purchase cost, insurance, and repairs dwarf gasoline cost for almost all car owners. Only if you own a jalopy in the boondocks and drive it 100 miles a day is gas the main factor. And then you don't have any public transit to switch to anyway.
Yes. That is not contradictory with my statement that I paid $.349 per gallon. And I'm not talking about a fluke. $.349 was a typical price in the NYC and Boston suburbs until the oil embargo.
Gas is cheaper now (adjusted for inflation) than after the big 1973-74 price increase. But I think it's more expensive when adjusted for inflation than before that price increase.
In those days, the gasoline pumps only went as high as 99.9 cents per gallon. In order to charge more than $1.00 they had to allow "half gallon pricing". Essentially, they set the pumps to the price per half gallon and then you'd have to pay double what the pump read.
CG
Some states had laws that forbade that kind of posting of prices.
Silly, you say? Well, we still have laws prohibiting the posting of prices that include sales tax in many cases (not gasoline, but many other cases).
I don't think that's silly. In fact, I think all prices should be posted before taxes. On my more anti-tax days I think that we should eliminate withholding from paychecks and require people to pay their taxes directly to the governments.
CG
Do people realize that the sales tax on parking is something like 18%?
What percentage of the cost of a pack of cigarettes actually pays for the cigarettes -- and how much goes to the government?
Do people realize how much they pay in income taxes -- in dollars?
If you don't touch the money and see the tax being added on or write the check to pay your income taxes, then you have no idea how much your government is charging you for the services they are providing.
Transparency of taxation is a check that the citizen should have on what their government is doing.
CG
Yes. Or at least as measured by per capita income (the quickest statistic I could find).
Here's a quick summary of per capita income in New York and for the U.S.
Year...............New York............United States
1971...............5,179...............4,348
1974...............6,492...............5,720
2002..............36,043..............30,941
2002 / 1974.........5.55...............5.41
2002 / 1971.........6.96...............7.12
CG
You also don't have to wait on line for 3-4 hours or worry about odd and even days like we did when Jimmy (Democrat) Carter was in office.
In the burbs, transit frequency and locations are both limited. Time is money -- and it always comes down to how one values their time. For me to take the bus to Roosevelt Field from my house would be 50-60 minutes. I can drive there in 15 minutes. That's more than an hour lost (both ways). If you've got nothing better to do with your time than sit on busses -- Ride on!!
Or are you just asking me to pay so that you can have a new rail line to ride?
If it were free and simple, then I'd say go right ahead and open it up -- we can see whether anyone wants to ride it (I'd still think few actually would).
But it isn't free and it isn't simple. In fact it will be quite expensive. And since it's my money you're spending so freely -- without anything other than speculation as to who might actually ride the thing, my answer is a very simple NFW.
CG
In fact, driving is always more convenient. The only reason people use transit to go to New York rather than drive is not because transit there is convenient, but because driving there is inconvenient. New York City has the land use patterns to allow a person to live happily without a car, Long Island does not. If you made driving too inconvenient there, you wouldn't convince them to ride your new transit, you'd convince them to move to New Jersey.
Stop trying to make sense here. it's falling on deaf ears.
Very simplistic, John, even for you. That ROW was never electrified. Even if you could find the money to build the sub-stations necessary to electrify, the NIMBYs would tie you up for dozens of years. I know you are not suggesting that diesels be used - are you?
While you are at it maybe you'd discuss the following;
What would you estimate that the ridership would be on a daily basis?
What frequency of service would you propose to run?
Since only a small portion of the operating costs would come from collected fares, who would you propose underwrite the cost of the service?
Presumably this service would serve only those west of Roosevelt field. How are you going to get people who live north, south or east of Roosevelt field to support the idea?
I'll really enjoy hearing back from you, John, on these points.
Also, with just a little contruction, the line could also run from RFM to Far Rockaway, not necesarily just to serve mall riders, but anyone travelling in that general direction. Also, FYI, the 2 bus routes that run west of RFM, the N22 and N24, are packed everyday(even today, I've been on both of them several weekends, almost SRO each time). Give these people are faster and more comfortable ride via rail.
No - and not because of your reactionary reasoning. Why not try to give answers substaniative to the questions I posed? While I'm waiting for that, let me give you a few other things to chew on.
Busses are SRO - from where? They are local people taking the bus to the mall. One seat - one fare. Bus is convenient because it is 'cheap' and convenient to their homes. How many of them will be willing to take a bus to the train - 2 seats - 2 fares just to ride a bus & train to the same place they can get to by bus alone?
In order for it to be sensible for the LIRR to provide service to Roosevelt Field two things would have to happen.
1) Roosevelt Field would have to draw from a customer base considerably wider than it does now. What will make people travel to Roosevelt Field mall over malls closer to home?
2) The LIRR would need more than one client on the line - where Roosevelt Field Mall would be one stop on a line that would serve other clients. NCC? Perhaps. Colliseum? Wrong direction!
You haven't sold this to me yet and I'm easy. How are you going to sell it to the MTA?
To answer your questions
1. I have been on plenty of buses that are SRO leaving RFM that originate there.
2. The thing is that the bus is faster. Also, I'm sure many of them were taking 2 buses when they had the shuttle bus running around the mall. Also, there are people who ride those buses even beyond Floral Park that get on at RFM
3. RFM is one of the major and largest malls on the island(from what I'm told). People go there from quite some distances. I think the line of where people come from is probably rt 110 on the east border. I'm sure people from south shore towns, even Long Beach and Far Rock go to RFM. North shore towns, oh yeah...them too. West....I'd say...Queens Village area would be the line.
4. You say RFM is the only client. If they extend the tracks through pretty much nothingness right now down to the source mall, there's your other customer base. Also, throw in a stop at Oak St and make the Clinton Rd stop. So basically, the runs from HTC would be HTC-CLP-Clinton Rd-Oak St-RFM-Source
Now, right now, we're just talking about that industrial spur off the central. You still have NCC and Nassau Collesium that you can serve via the central itself.
Second, you mention Rt 110. Walt Whitman Mall is closer. Massapequa Mall is closer. Smithhaven Mall is closer and I think that even the South Shore mall is closer.
Class I service to the mall is a pipe dream. Cost, demand and support just do not add up to a success. The obvious compromise is LRV service. This has been talked about for the Mineola business district but funding and community support are lacking. I've even seen proposals for a monorail system that would serve the mineola area and Roosevelt Field. There's no ground-swell of support there either.
BTW: I'm still waiting for any kind of meaningful response from John (qballdash7) who continually posts innane negative comments but usually has nothing substatiative to add to any discussion.
I know those malls are closer, but still, many people still come to RFM. RFM is much bigger than any of those other malls. Also, it's not only RFM. Some of them go to RFM and the source. They could just park there car and ride the train.
Hey, stop bitching about John. He posts nothing wrong. You people are always assholes to him when he mentions in a trip report that a bus was late or something. He just says it, he doesn't make it a point to bitch about it. So just shut up!
"You people"
Who are you people?
"So just shut up!"
Excuse me?
Before you go on defending john, suppose you learn to defend your arguments. Where are your facts about diesel being cheaper. How about cost per passenger mile? Where are your numbers from feasibility studies that show that RFM customers would even use rail service? Where are your demographic studies that show RFM's geographic draw for a customer base? How about giving some facts instead of questionable opinion.
wayne
If he's only 15 then mommy ought to be shoving a bar of soap down his throat.
But if he were 18, it would be ok? No. If it's okay for grown people to use foul language, why not teenagers?
That seems not much of a stretch young man. Besides you make it so easy to do.
Was there anything meaningful to blame it on minorities for his careless actions?
I remember that thread. Qtrain never said anything about minorities.
But Qtrain too readily calls people thugs, and I'm sure he has a mental image of what such a "thug" looks like. I don't think he's racist, but it's a form of bigotry nonetheless.
"First you go after John and then me."
Just to keep the record straight, you came after me. There's nothing wrong with pulling a tiger's tail. Just have a plan for when he turns around.
Is there anything else aside from diesel or electrification? What about those RDCs, how were those things powered? Maybe DMU?
Really? Every 10 minutes? Babylon branch during rush hour is about double that. How many locos and coaches would you need for your plan? How fast do you intend your local service to operate? The ROW you plan to use is not suitable for higher speeds. BTW: How long is your new line going to be?
If it weren't for him, we wouldn't know what Mystical Chix are.
Only because he hasn't followed my advice and gone to one of the Asian "massage" joints that advertise in the Village Voice.
Well, yeah, but I sorta doubt it's too expensive - Oriental Flowers Gentlemen's Pleasure Center isn't Mayflower Madam territory. Qtrain has enough money to manage frequent railfan trips. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not minimizing the importance of railfanning in any way, but it seems to me that if he foregoes the next ten (or whatever) railfan excursions, and uses the $$ saved to visit one of those joints, he'd be a heck of a lot happier. And he'd probably get more enjoyment out of future railfan excursions. A win-win situation.
What the LIRR should do is increase service on that line to a useful level, and I am convinced that ridership would increase dramatically. Current service definitely is not at a useful level, not with the last connecting train leaving Penn at 5:41 pm.
Now, the Nassau Hub shuttle bus doesn't even run to HTC or Mineola! Just RFM and then around a little bit. That's it. I say replace it with 2 new rail lines.
HTC-CLP-Clinton Rd-Stewart Av-RFM-Source Mall-Ellison Av-Merrick Av
and
Mineola-Clinton Rd-Quentin Roosevelt BLVD-Selfridge Av-Endon BLVD(NCC)-Nassau Collesium/Marriott-Hofstra-Mitchel Field-Quentin Roosevelt BLVD-Clinton Rd-Mineola
So, the 1st one runs from HTC to the shopping district. The line would have to be extended past East Gate Rd to Merrick Av, pretty much through parking lots, not too hard. The 2nd line runs from Mineola, down the old ROW, then on the central to NCC area. After Endo BLVD, then tracks would curve south, parallel to the Meadowbrook, then along Charles Lindbergh Dr. Then, they go into Mitchell Field, connect to the old spur, and then turn west to return to Mineola, a continuous loop. Transfers between the 2 lines could be made at Stewart Av and Quentin Roosevelt BLVD stops b/c they'd be right next to each other, just on different lines.
I wouldn't expect anyone going from Mineola to HTC to ride the line, as the N40 and N41 do it fine in just one seat.
There's nothing wrong with light rail. That's why I raised the issue in my post #671326.
Here's the way it would have to work:
Central Line connects with Ronkonkoma Line west of Farmingdale.
New stations at Plainedge, Levittown, East Meadow, Roosevelt Field, Clinton Road. It would have to share the branch with Hempstead Line
OR use the ROW (probably in subway) between Mineola and Country Life Press junction to rejoin the main line east of Mineola.
The line would run in subway under the Meadowbrook Parkway and Eisenhower Park before re-emerging at East Meadow. Other stations might have to be in cut or in subway so as not to annoy residents. The ROW currently in place would be followed.
Main Line extends ELECTRIFIED (and partially double-tracked) to Babylon. New stations at South Farmingdale (opposite the Airport, not the original spot), North Lindenhurst, West Babylon. Service would go via Hicksville to Jamaica, GCT and Penn.
I know, this is a pipe dream...but we DO have to think about getting folks out of their cars. This place is strangling in traffic.
wayne
Also, your subway line idea, why not just use the central and re-extend it to Levittown? That'd parallel Hempstead TPKE the whole way. Hell, since it's that close, conenct it to the LIRR again at B tower.
The ROW from West Hempstead to Country Life Press (CLP) = completely unobstructed except for some fences - used as Utility ROW (it does, alas, run through the backyards of the richest area of Hempstead - I think called Cathdredal Gardens).
The ROW from CLP North to Mineola = Unfortunately very obstructed, with at least 2 large office buildings on the former ROW. The entire area where the Hempstead Branch once intersected the Main line is quite built over (I was kinda irked when I passed by Allied Products off Rosyln Rd in Mineola today, and suddenly realized they don't have a spur off the LIRR - probably lost during the LIRR's 1970s 'scorched freight' era, but a large wholesale distributor of building products is precisely the type of business that should be using rail freight).
The ROW of the Central Branch from EOT at Endo Blvd in Garden City 'East' thru to Bethpage (with the big exception of Eisenhower Park) is actually fairly unencumbered - I think the former ROW passes between the 1-800 Flowers office building parking lot and the Kitchenware distributor). It's a Utility corridor from Carmen Ave. east, and physically restoring the track wouldn't be insurmountable, but the political issues in restoring service would be unimaginable...
I'm glad to see CLP-WH is also clear, and of course, estatic that the central remains pretty much free.
So, basically, any of these ROWs, if not all, could be restored for service fairly easily(aside from the digging underground part)
HTC-CLP-Clinton Rd-Quentin Roosevelt BLVD/Stewart Av-RFM-Fortunoff-Source-Ellison Av-Merrick Av
The only real heavy construction that'd need to be done is relaying the track between CLP and and the central heading eastbound. That and then extending the line from East Gate BLVD to Merrick Av with the new stops.
Mineola-Clinton Rd-Quentin Roosevelt BLVD/Stewart Av-Selfridge Av-Endo BLVD(NCC)-Nassau Collesium/Marriott-Hofstra-Mitchell Field-Quentin Roosevelt BLVD/Stewart Av-Clinton Rd-Mineola
It'd be a continous loop at the hub end. This would require a bit more construction, but it'd doable. 1st, since there is a building on the old ROW at Mineola, the line would have to be submerged from just south of Old Country Rd to Mineola. This'd also give room for future connection to the OB line, as there is no way they could have the tracks cross the main and tie up those trains.
The other heavy construction would be the new loop. From Endo BLVD, re-extend the line to the Meadowbrook PKWY, where it would curve south to parallel the parkway, then it parallels Charles Lindbergh BLVD until Mitchell Field, where it'd use the old spur.
Also, for the circus train, a yard would be built at the Nassau Collesium to hold it. Also, there'd be a need for a new yard for these trains as well. So...use the old one, at Stewart and Quentin Roosevelt. You don't need that many trains operating on this line, and that yard would be big enough. Also, it's a pretty central location of the hub system, so if there is ever a problem, the wait time wouldn't be too much longer at one end of the system than at the other.
There was a plan a bit more complex than this, but again, it didn't run to HTC or to Mineola, just around the immidiate hub.
http://web.ask.com/redir?bpg=http%3a%2f%2fweb.ask.com%2fweb%3fq%3dnassau%2bhub%26o%3d0%26page%3d1&q=nassau+hub&u=http%3a%2f%2ftm.wc.ask.com%2fr%3ft%3dan%26s%3da%26uid%3d2cf7f8f65cf7f8f65%26sid%3d3cf7f8f65cf7f8f65%26qid%3d867562DE9F732548B0387238ACCC4A2A%26io%3d4%26sv%3dza5cb0dee%26o%3d0%26ask%3dnassau%2bhub%26uip%3dcf7f8f65%26en%3dte%26eo%3d-100%26pt%3dfuture.newsday.com%2b%252f%2bNassau's%2bHub%26ac%3d4%26qs%3d0%26pg%3d1%26ep%3d1%26te_par%3d194%26te_id%3d%26u%3dhttp%3a%2f%2ffuture.newsday.com%2f5%2ffghub16.htm&s=a&bu=http%3a%2f%2ffuture.newsday.com%2f5%2ffghub16.htm&qte=0&o=0
Routes with some newly added stops:
Mineola-Stewart Av-Clinton Rd-Quentin Roosevelt BLVD-Selfridge Av-Nassau Community College-Marriott Hotel-EAB Plaza-Nassau Collesium-Hofstra University-Mitchell Field-Quentin Roosvelt BLVD-Clinton Rd-Stewart Av-Mineola
Hempstead Transit Center-Country Life Press-Clinton Rd-Stewart Av(not the same one as above)-Roosevelt Field Mall(Zeckendorf BLVD, connect to shuttle bus that loops mall)-Zeckendorf BLVD(Near BestBuy I think)-The Source-Merrick Av
The woman said it would be at Noon on SATURDAY, March 13, at the Camden end (at the aquarium/entertainment center). Regular service is begins on Sunday, March 14.
Knowing NJ Transit, I recommend you call NJ Transit to confirm before going to the ceremonies.
Simply adding light rail or a train to an area will NOT get people out of their cars. Traffic isn't a big incentive alone as there is not bumper to bumper traffic 24 hours a day and its more convinient. Lets say I lived in a moderately sized city and I pay $89 a month for insurance and gas was $1.29 a gallon, with some freeway(or in NY terms: Expressway/Parkway/Bridge/Tunnel) delays. Why would I jump out my car to to use public transportation because they built one subway line that hardly goes anywhere but downtown? Or because they have buses that run every hour and end at 8PM?
I disagree. The park & ride concept works very well with Lightrail as has been noted on the many sucessful lines developed. We have to ask, do we really need to get people out of their cars to decrease traffic to find a reason to constuct a rail road? NO. We need to build rail transport regardless of the gridlock situation because that will never be resolved!
>>>>>Lets say I lived in a moderately sized city and I pay $89 a month for insurance and gas was $1.29 a gallon, with some freeway(or in NY terms: Expressway/Parkway/Bridge/Tunnel) delays.<<<<
According to AAA, it costs almost $6,000.00 dollars to drive a new car each year. Motor transportation is very expensive any way you look at it and millions are in debt up to their eyeballs paying for a car that spends 97% of it's existence parked.
>>>>Why would I jump out my car to to use public transportation because they built one subway line that hardly goes anywhere but downtown? Or because they have buses that run every hour and end at 8PM? <<<<<
I agree. That's why you need to sell your car, move out of the burbs and move closer to the city.
I will say this. If you make the decision to move in the middle in the middle of nowhere, far away from subways and public transportation, totally dependant on motor car, you have my condolences.
It's also said somewhere around 40% of your income will be spent on travel/commuting in car dependant cities.
That would mean that for the average family with about $50,000/year in income, they'd have to be spending $20,000/year on driving, or $1,667/month. Even at $6,000/year each for 2 cars, you'd only get to about $12,000/year, or 24%. Still a lot of money, but not 40%.
Contrast that with my transit spending carless here in Chicago. For two people, we spend $150/month in transit passes, about $200/month in cabs, and about $100/month in local car rentals. That works out to about $5,400/year in transportation expenses for two people, less than the quoted "average" cost for one car, and a helluva lot less than 40% of our income.
The average hoovers around 20-30%. 7,000-10,000 per year on personal car expenses. And the people with the lowest 20% income spend closer to 40.2% on their travel expenses.
Tampa trib:
Local polls consistently show strong public support for transit, because most people understand that it is a costly policy to expect everyone to own and operate a car. A survey by the Bureau of Labor Statistics shows that residents of the Tampa area spend a higher percentage of their take-home pay on transportation than do residents of any of the other 27 metropolitan areas studied.
****The average consumer here spends 24.6 percent of his or her take-home pay on transportation. That's about 6 percentage points above the metropolitan average.*****
Local incomes are somewhat lower than the national average, but that doesn't account for Tampa's remarkable ranking.
In total dollars, we're spending $9,292 a year on transportation, about $1,200 a year above the 28-city average.
With some 1.1 million consumers in the study area, the difference between Tampa's expenses and the national urban average amounts to about $1.32 billion a year.
Where does all that money come from?
Each family makes its own spending decisions, but it is instructive to look at other categories in the consumer study. People in no other urban region spend less on food and entertainment than do residents of the Tampa area.
Only Pittsburgh spends less on housing. Only Kansas City and Atlanta spend less on fares for public transportation.
The pro-transit Surface Transportation Policy Project analyzed the government survey and concluded that ``housing expenses are no longer a fair indicator of a metro area's affordability. Decision-makers must also consider the cost of getting around to give a more realistic picture of the cost of living in a particular place.''
One rationale in Hillsborough County for allowing so many new houses to be built on inexpensive rural land far from job centers is that the houses there are more affordable. If so, housing in this area should be among the nation's least expensive. Indeed, Tampa is a few percentage points below the average on the portion of the family budget going for rent or house payments.
But when you add housing costs and transportation costs, Tampa is second highest out of 28 areas. The survey shows that the higher cost of mobility gobbles up all the gains from building on less expensive land, and then some.
And what's worse, the money spent on transportation - car payments, insurance, repairs and gasoline - is not an investment that can later be sold at a profit. A house and lot normally increase in value over the years, sometimes dramatically. Cars and trucks wear out and depreciate.
I do like your scenario with the included car rentals. That's pretty good, I like that.
*****The hardest hit by high transportation expenses are those with the lowest incomes. The Surface Transportation Policy Group points out that the poorest 20 percent of American households spend 40.2 percent of their take-home pay on transportation.*******
In many areas, including most of the Tampa area, they have no choice if they want to go shopping or get to work.
Senior drivers in Florida are getting into fatal crashes at three times the national average.
Or in some of our cases, live out in west bumf--- not by choice but because your parents moved you there. (Me: Eventually want to move to DC)
Ben F. Schumin :-)
What you're really after is for more and more people every year to actually find transit not so bad or so frightening, and to like staying downtown to shop, and for their kids to want to live there. Then the city gradually turns into someplace more like NYC. But you are right; the immediate effect of transit, at these gas prices, in a smaller city is almost imperceptible. It's the long term we're after.
Mark
Less dense= less public transit
More dense= more public transit
So basically in a less dense area there are more cars and don't necessarily use mass transit. If NYC wasn't so mass transit dependent, I don't know how the city would really fucntion in terms of traveling.
An important adjective was left out i.e. good public transport.
In London, after the theatre, underground service is still running 4 or 5 minutes apart. In New York, past 7:30 service spreads out to every 10 or 12 minutes.
Frankly if I had great service (4 or 5 minutes after the theatre in NY) I would much prefer to take the subway. Same thing is true when going to a Yankee game from Brooklyn. Give me service every 4 or 5 minutes at 11 PM and I would opt for the subway.
Makes a big difference. Go below 9-10 minutes and it is worse.
Remember that you are competing with people's perception of auto travel -- leave when you want, from where you are, go to where you want.
Most people only spend 20 minutes on a subway train, 30 tops. Most have to change trains. You already have to walk to and from the train. Ten mintues of waiting is too much, unless it is for an express.
That's why transfers have to be made closer to the CBD, where more trains merge together. If you could take either one, you have double the service.
Between 12:30 and 1:00am on Saturday night, there are five northbound IRT locals leaving Times Square -- but they're crowded, with some cars crush loaded.
On many lines, most seats are empty at night even with much less frequent service. With limited funding to go around, it's hard to justify increasing service on those lines rather than on the ones with crush loads.
Egg was first, argument closed. :-)
*Lets say I lived in a moderately sized city and I pay $89 a month for insurance and gas was $1.29 a gallon, with some freeway(or in NY terms: Expressway/Parkway/Bridge/Tunnel) delays.*
A buck 72 a gallon today, closing in on 2 dollars, with pure gridlock in the 6 closest cities to myself. (gridlock meaning the light turns green yellow red like christmas lights and I don't move).
*Why would I jump out my car to to use public transportation because they built one subway line that hardly goes anywhere but downtown? Or because they have buses that run every hour and end at 8PM?*
That's the million dollar question/problem. But at least thanks to all this, traffic and increasing public transportation is the #1 concern in surveys, above crime and taxes.
There are backups, check the Cross Bronx Expressway(I-95) and the Major Deegan Expwy-Cross Bx Expwy interchange, Long Island Expressway, Belt Parkway in southern Queens, Staten Island Expressway, BQE/Gowanus Expressway, Grand Central Parkway, FDR Drive, Henry Hudson Parkway. Van Wyck Expressway, Southern State Parkway, Northern State Parkway, etc etc. Traffic is especially worse on Fridays, and Summer weekends (of course). LIRR transit is directly related to traffic as evidenced by the LIRR strike a few years ago, the highways were JAMMED as early as 5:30am! Although there are a lot of NYC residents without vehicles, I'm SURE metro area traffic would be a disaster if NYCT and the rest of the MTA didn't run!. (the Blackout of 2003 doesn't count for obvious reasons)
And I'd love to ride that airtran one day when the Van Wyck is backed up too, or any train or BRT that goes down the center of a completely backed up expressway. That would be a real thrill to me.
The success of rail requires some degree of density at one (or both) ends of the trip. People are willing to park-and-ride if they can easily get to their office from the destination station. If they have to ride a shuttle van or walk a considerable distance ridership will plummet. A city like Atlanta could lay 1000 miles of rail and they wouldn't get people out of their cars. MARTA does a nice job for people working downtown -- but the number of jobs in suburban office parks strangles any hope for getting cars off the roads.
I agree with JeffW. NYC has fewer traffic problems than most other major US Cities.
CG
Only in that you have an alternative to getting stuck in traffic. If you absolutely have to get somewhere by car on a weekday, forget about it.
Not good for bus riders, however.
Your argument seems to be in favor of tolls. Those who absolutely have to get somewhere by car will gladly pay the tolls to avoid the congestion; those who don't will ride transit.
If, over time, downtowns become more attractive locations for offices, transit usage is likely to increase.
You also have to provide adequate mass transit, not tell people that if they drive they have to pay even more big $$$ than they already do. Suffolk County has more population than several states and most U.S. cities, but all the MTA taxes we pay goes (with the exception of a few MSBA routes that go no further east than Babylon) to the LIRR, which is good for one thing and one thing only: to get to and from the city. The average fare is 4 times+ the subway fare, which you also have to pay. There is no useful bus service to speak of (lots of routes, but ONCE an HOUR), NYDOT has campaigned AGAINST putting in light rail.
People in the city shouldn't looka gift horse in the mouth--if you really got people out of their cars in the 'burbs, there would go an enormous hunk of the mass transit subsidies.
Mark
I don't know about LIRR, but MNRR transports lots of people between Mount Vernon, White Plains and intermediate points, and ditto for Mount Vernon and Stamford. It also provides Westchester businesses with access to the Bronx and Manhattan-resident labor force.
Reverse rush trains on MNRR are not jammed, but they are full.
There's quite a bit of local traffic to Hicksville and Mineola on Ronkonkoma-line trains.
I can think of one way to fix this. Reconnect and two-track the West Hemstead and Hemstead branches, and have them run around the whole "Nassau Hub" area as "light rail." Direct commuter service on most of these branches would be eliminated.
Perhaps even have the system extended up the Oyster Bay Branch and down the Long Beach and Far Rockaway Branches. Direct commuter service on these branches would continue, but with perhaps less frequency.
Build transfer stations on the Main Line and Bablyon/Montauk lines. Increase service on those lines. Time the light rail to meet the train.
You'd have to take houses to make the system work. But if you did it, Nassau could have a Downtown to go along with Jamaica, Downtown Brooklyn, White Plains and other regional centers, one that could be accessed without a car by anyone near any LIRR branch.
Some areas have great surface transit. Hempstead Tpke., Front Street, Old Country Road, Newbridge Road, in Suffolk, Rt. 110, Middle Country Road and Montauk Hwy have decent (every 1/2 hr) service. Plus, Nassau has many train stations well served by connecting buses. Suffolk has Bablylon, Ronkonkoma, Central Islip, Brentwood and Wyandanch stations, and Bay Shore, Sayville and Patchogue, which all have multiple bus routes stopping. So at least there is a basic pattern of transit in place. The thing to do is to encourage increased housing density along those routes, and to also encourage large employment centers to locate along them too.
Long Island local transit use needs better marketing, IMO.
You also have to factor in geography. A lot of streets in Atlanta do not have sidewalks, thus you have to walk in the street with the traffic. Imagine having to to this at night-I don't think so.
In a lot of cases, the nearest bus route maybe about 10 blocks away.
These are just some of the factors that Atlanta, as well as Baltimore and suburban Washington, DC (Maryland and Virginia) are faced with.
W Bwy
Riding on a train for an equvalent amount of time is much better. You can read, sleep, watch DVD's, and so on. When driving, however, you have to concentrate on the task at hand.
Except you don't really share space with other people on transit, unless you want to. Other people are there, but you don't interact with them. I use my Walkman to drown out the sound of other passengers.
Some people do that as well, while replicating what they are listning to out loud.
Some people play their walkmen so loud that they don't have to sing for surrounding people to hear the music perfectly. Arrggh.
Mark
Very true, While others like to do RAP Solo's LOUD either accompanied or not by their walkman.
–Frequent transit. It doesn’t have to be a one-seat ride, but the transfers should be convenient, and generally protected from the weather.
–Extended hours transit. If not all night, then a reasonable time past midnight, past when late night entertainment closes (bonus: less drunk drivers!)
–Delivery services for all the heavy stuff and maybe even for supermarket purchases.
–Convenience stores within walking distance, for the forgotten loaf of bread and pint of milk.
The result is an integrated community as you see in a city neighborhood, not the sterile housing tracts and megamalls of suburbia. Unfortunately, we have built far too many of the latter in the USA already.
Agreed. If you have a car you will use it, anywhere outside Manhattan. That's why Manhattan accounts for a huge share of U.S. transit trips.
We have a car. Our church is a mile away, and it's just about impossible to park. But half the time we drive anyway, because we need to get going somewhere else, the weather is bad, etc. If we had to pay the total cost of an automobile trip, we'd make a different decision. But the marginal cost of an auto trip is low, it is the fixed cost that is high, and we have paid it. It would be three times the price for the kids to take the bus, even though my wife and I have unlimited passes and therefore the ride is free. And with infrequent service, the bus takes longer than the walk.
I'd add one item to your list -- affordable, convenient, rental cars. Not every trip makes sense by mass transit. You don't want to travel three or four hours each way for a two hour trip to see your grandparents who live out of town.
When we bought our car, we compared the cost of ownership with the rent or take car service as needed alternative. Because rental cars are so expensive here, ownership won. We have friends -- he is from Kentucky, she from Puerto Rico. They don't have a car, because they seldom go where transit won't take them. We take more trips to see friends and relatives around the region.
Les' see...that's like, from 14th Street to 34th Street. You ever consider walking it? Takes about twenty minutes. You'll arrive at church with an invigorated spirit..
Whenever you see a magazine or newspaper ad from a car rental company, touting its latest rate specials, there's always fine print saying that the NYC area is excluded.
Its true, transit does make traveling more restrictive. I have noticed that people with cars are more likely to take regional trips as people who use mass trasit are more likely to stay restricted to the city. During the summer there are NJT busses that go from the Port Athority to Great Adventure, and its $22 round trip, I've used it once, however If I had a car I would be more likly to take a trip there as I had Season Pass for last summer.
Same thing for beaches, People can take the LIRR and/or Bus to Jones Beach, I haven't actually done so, but when I had my car i would take spur of the moment trips there.
In Philadelphia we have PhillyCarShare which provides just that kind of service. My wife and I are getting rid of our car this month and joining up. The main reason is that it costs about $1100 to insure a small car with even bare bones coverage. It just doesn't pay, since we don't use the car that often. With this program, we have access to a car when we do need one for far less per year.
Mark
Frequent transit. It doesn’t have to be a one-seat ride, but the transfers should be convenient, and generally protected from the weather.
And to support frequent transit, the area needs to be reasonably densely populated.
Convenience stores within walking distance, for the forgotten loaf of bread and pint of milk.
More than convenience stores. There need to be stores selling all basic daily needs within walking distance.
The common argument is that few American communities meet these criteria because few Americans want to live in dense areas in walking distance of stores. The flaw in the argument is that in most developed parts of the U.S., density is illegal and stores in walking distance of housing is illegal (and those stores that do exist are required by law to have huge parking lots, limiting the potential walkshed), so regardless of how many people might want to live in such a community, no developer is going to violate scads of zoning laws to build one. If nobody likes living in density, what accounts for residential property values in Manhattan?
Another really yuppized main street built near another main street. Everyone loves teh walkability here in this spawl jungle.
Shop winter park village
PDF file on project
I'm having trouble finding info on it, but they did build some, and are still building some condo's on top of those restuarants and other places in the complex. It's funny how they have a little gated parking lot within the parking lot.
Coming soon to a town near you, if you dont' already have a few already.
"Winter Park Mall one of Central Florida's best-known retail developments, has been reborn as a bold new entertainment and fashion center. Now known as Winter Park Village, it has been completely transformed into an inviting urban village environment that's perfectly suited to the Winter Park community's discerning tastes. Come and enjoy the charm of shopping on Main Street, take in a matinee, pamper yourself at a salon, or indulge yourself with a delicious meal at one of the many restaurants! They have retail stores, heath and beauty shops, business centers, restaurants and a cinema. You'll find Winter Park Village offers a variety of fun, shopping, and entertainment for everyone of all ages!"
***so regardless of how many people might want to live in such a community, no developer is going to violate scads of zoning laws to build one***
I do have to disagree here though. They consider it the costs of doing business. Developers break plenty of laws and environmental laws and just add the fines into the costs of development. As long as you can sell the lot you're good to go.
I've not had the chance to get down to the Rockaways within the last few months. Can anybody advise if the temporary plaforms at Howard Beach have been removed yet and service patterns have returned to normal?
Thanks in advance.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.6 Coming Next Week!
Yes the temporary platforms have been removed.
U.S. sees cause for concern over gas
he government amplified concern Thursday about rising gasoline prices and repeated a warning of possible shortages, but it didn't offer relief for either.
"This administration is extremely concerned" about the near-record gas prices, Energy Secretary Spencer Abraham said, strengthening a department statement a day earlier that said "spikes in gasoline prices are always of concern."
Separately, the head of the department's Energy Information Administration, Guy Caruso, told a Senate panel that "many signs are pointing to a tight gasoline market this driving season," repeating the caution about possible shortages from a recent EIA analysis.
Nationwide average price for a gallon of unleaded regular gas is $1.709, motorists' club AAA reported Thursday. The record was $1.737 Aug. 30 of last year.
---
How come when gas is "cheap" my area is always way below average, but when gas rises I'm above average?
I guess this means we'll be hearing her next cooking tips from Rikers Island!
Metro North, actually. The main federal women's prison is in Danbury.
What cookie jar??? All she did was sell her stock.
Michael
Washington, DC
There were no remaining fraud counts.
I’ve been waiting for that!
It’s a good thing…
In the case of Rosie O'Donnell it's a MOO POINT
Now let's be polite ... the correct term is faire minette.
At least that's what they call it in the Joy of Sex.
Only way I see it is a petty difference - republicans steal. So do democrats - only difference is that democrats spread it around a bit. I could really *use* a drunken sailor right about now. Sadly, no oil on the property. :)
When Schwartzenegger is prezzydent, there will be catering. Heh. But in all seriousness ... Martha Stewart? Geez ... if it were even the remotest bit on topic, I can name dozens (of equal public "visage") of bigger crooks who still ain't gotten the "blue curtain of justice" on their arse yet. Just irks me. People who do the right thing, live by the law and custom gets scrood while these jamokes get over. If there were any SEMBLANCE of "justice" they'd ALL be busy making railroad ballast. Wow! Just brought this on topic. Whew! =)
But let's be real - in the greater scheme of things, Martha Stewart - stuffed and mounted? (and not necessarily in that order)? Just pales by comparison to so many others who haven't even been questioned yet - I have no love for Martha Stewart. I know television folk and office folk who worked with her and she's definitely your quintiscential biatch. Cubed. Exponent infinity. And THEN some.
And yes, I don't condone crime - I can vicariously admire it when it's unique and crafty - after all, *MY* current slavery is in the anti-"ne'er-do-well" 'biz' and I see crooks and the junk they put on innocent people's machines (well, innocent enough that they'll NEVER admit that they went to a porn site and downloaded a "free viewer" and now they're running a spam server for Al Qaeda on their cable modem - we make that go away, heh) every dingdong day here. Still, I can after all the work involved in PREVENTING their success, I can admire the code that was written that kept me locked up in the lab for 6 hours trying to figure out *ONE* of the criminal nasties people download ('cuz it's FREE!!!) every day.
From my OWN world, the chitheads who have been doing the "BAGEL vs. NETSPY" worms ... OH, for just five minutes alone in a dark alley with no witnesses, BRONX style. THESE clowns deserve the "French Frying Legion" treatment (old "McDonalds" employee booster nonsense) and then some. Martha Stewart though, in sheer terms of the evil I face and fight every day here, is a parking ticket.
There's some SERIOUS crooks out there ... some are spammers, many are credit card rippers, con artists and HALLIBURTON for example. Martha Stewart stole maybe $50,000 ... WorldCON stole a few million. There's some Trotskyites out there who've stolen BILLIONS. When *THEY* do a perp walk (the folks I write software to defeat, then there's Enron), THEN I'll get a rip-roaring stiffie for Martha. Until then, she's SUCH small potatoes - where's the "featured presentation?" :)
P.S. I still think it's f--ked up and she didn't do anything wrong but I still couldn't resist posting this image!!!
No, even more peculiar, she was found guilty of lying about an activity that the government never claimed was a crime, namely selling her stock because her broker told her the CEO was selling. The government never charged her with insider trading.
Not quite accurate. The SEC brought a civil insider trading case against her, and that's still pending.
It's true that the government ultimately decided not to charge her with criminal insider trading, because they didn't think they could prove that beyond a reasonable doubt. But during the course of their investigation, Martha submitted to an interview. And in the course of that interview, she lied, and that's a crime.
So yes, it's ironic that she's now a felon because she lied about a crime she eventually wasn't charged with. However, the investigation did produce a civil insider trading case, so it's wrong to say that she was totally innocent of the underlying offense. In any event, lying to investigators is a crime in itself—even when you've done nothing else wrong.
Which is illegal.
"Which is illegal."
Yes. However, she wasn't charged with that. All she was charged with was lying about why she sold her stock, not with selling it illegally.
Well anyway, I hope for her sake that the images of her being "processed" for prison, don't turn up on the Internet.
1) Ms. Stewart was not really in trouble for selling the stock although, as a former stock broker, she had to know it was illegal.
2) Her legal troubles revolved around the fact that she lide to federal investigators. Had she fessed up at the beginning, she likely would have paid a fine.
And, yes, it is f--ked up - f--ked up for the people who lost money so that the multi-millionaire, Martha wouldn't lose about $50,000.00 - chump-change to her.
(6) to Astor Place or W/R to 8th Street.
Let Martha go, jail the K-FART EXECS. Even Enron stockholders and WorldCon stock holders got back pennies on the dollar - we got the "blue light" watch what you back into. :(
*BOY* am I going to "remember this November" ... between that and STILL no economy (except in Iraq), somebody owes ME some money. :)
GUPTA for PREZZY-DENT!
I never much liked Martha Stewart, but this is a bit over the edge by comparison to much more egregious crimes that remain unpunished. Martha's only mistake was not ponying up a campaign contribution like the other crooks.
Offers cheerfully accepted for political asylum offshore. :)
Oh, by the way, did you see that f*&king offensive campaign commercial from the Bushies? Made me sick to my stomach. I'd rather see BOTH of Janet Jackson's titties than that commecial.
Hey, I'd rather see that than ANY commercial!!!
Dictionary definition of fascist:
Fas·cist [ fáshist ] (plural Fas·cists)
noun
1. supporter of Fascism in Italy: somebody who belonged to Benito Mussolini’s party or who supported Fascism in Italy between 1922 and 1943
2. fas·cist (plural fas·cists) or Fas·cist supporter of fascism: somebody who supports or advocates a system of government characterized by dictatorship, centralized control of private enterprise, repression of all opposition, and extreme nationalism
[Early 20th century. Via Italian Fascista , from fascio “group, bundle,” from, ultimately, Latin fascis (see fasces).] Anyone who calls any American President's administation whether Democrat or Republican Fascist really has NO clue.
Sentence her to redecorating the stations on the Sea Beach line !!
Bill "Newkirk"
www.forgotten-ny.com
You'd think our leaders would be watching out for US. :(
It's often cheaper to have existing staff work overtime, even with time-and-a-half pay, given the cost of benefits.
Matthew Mummert
When the Slant's ran in mixed consists with, I believe R-38's, did such a consist ever run on the Grand Concourse? I lived in the Bronx then, and vaguely remember the mixed consists, but can't recall if they included Slants, R-40M, or R-42.
The Northern portion was almost exclusively R42s. The Southern Division operated everything and I do mean everthing that Coney Island had on the "D" including R40 Slants.
Slants during the 70's and 80's I mainly saw on the A, AA, F lines.
Tony
That's because they had been long gone from the "D" when you started riding the system "youngblood". LOL.
All joking aside, the R44s (260-399 only) were the backbone of the "D" from its inception until 1980. They took them off of the "D" for a very short time in 1980 and were replaced with the R46s. Later on in 1980, the R44s replaced the R46s (which then went to the "CC") and remained on the "D" until January of 1981 when the "A" received ALL R44s.
To sum it up, the last R46 operated on the "D" circa July 1980.
The last R44 operated on the "D" was January 1981. Neither one ever showed up on the "D" again (as far as I know).
I've never ridden an R44 outside the A line, and will always associate this car with this line only.
I always rode them on the "D" and "F" in the '70s, always saw them on the "E", but never rode them on the "E" until they came back in 1980.
Regards,
Jimmy
Also, the R44 on the D had the first, and last, carpeted train. I think it was numbers 320-330. The floors were pretty disgusting in the end.
Somewhere else in this thread it was said the R1-9 were gone from the D before 1971. I went to Lehman on Bedford Park Blvd and rode the R1s to the very end in January 1972. The CC was all R1 and R4. The R6, R7 and R9 were on other lines. People on the Brighton line were not pleased with the R1s after Chrystie St as the pre-war Standards and Triplexes were finally gone, and 2-3 years later the pre-war R1 returns, with incandescent bulbs. (Not everyone is a nostalgia freak or foamer. Some people want fast and modern.)
If you go to the R4 pictures section, you will find a lot of R4s on the "D" dated 1972. A very few were dated 1973.
David
Regards,
Jimmy
But some say the governor's announcement is actually intended to muscle the Legislature, where an effort to repeal the high-speed-rail amendment continues to face strong opposition. The hastily arranged news conference came just a day after a House subcommittee nearly killed a legislative repeal effort.
With Bush's blessing, Florida's Chief Financial Officer Tom Gallagher will join a Palm Beach County-based group called Derail the Bullet Train in an effort to get a referendum on the November ballot to revoke the high-speed-rail constitutional amendment voters approved in 2000.
"People will want another chance to look at this," said Bush, a longtime bullet-train opponent. "I think in the case of high-speed rail, there is strong support for its repeal."
State Sen. Ron Klein, one of Derail the Bullet Train's founders, called the combination of a petition drive and the additional pressure on lawmakers a "two-track approach."
Bush and Gallagher were joined by Palm Beach County Commissioner Burt Aaronson, another organizer for Derail the Bullet Train. The trio took turns detailing their problems with high-speed rail, which would link Florida's cities, beginning with Orlando and Tampa.
Bush said the multibillion-dollar project could drain money for everything from road projects to education to Medicaid.
"This is one of the worst things that could be perpetrated on the people of the state of Florida," Aaronson said.
Still, legislative leaders said a revival by lawmakers appears unlikely.
"I just don't see it happening," said House Speaker Johnnie Byrd, R-Plant City, although he added of Bush, "I'm sure he could change a few votes."
Byrd said he would wait for the Senate to act first. But the Senate so far has been loath to take up the measure, deferring to Sen. Paula Dockery, R-Lakeland, one of high-speed rail's biggest backers. She is married to C.C. "Doc" Dockery, a Lakeland millionaire who funded the campaign for the rail project.
"Paula Dockery . . . has been able to create enough objection to stop it in the Senate every year," Klein, D-Boca Raton, said. And once again this year, Klein added, "The odds are not good for a legislative repeal."
Instead, Klein said Bush and Gallagher could be more useful raising money to support a petition initiative. Though Derail the Bullet Train has been around for several years, supporters say it has raised about 85,000 signatures -- well short of the nearly 490,000 required to get on a ballot.
Bush's involvement means access to some of the Republican Party's biggest contributors. "The governor's going to bring a whole new level of financial efforts," Klein said.
On Wednesday, as rumors of Bush's imminent support for the petition repeal effort spread, Sen. Dockery blasted the governor for what she called his refusal to uphold the Florida Constitution.
"If the governor actually spent one-tenth of the effort in actually abiding by what the constitutional amendment said as he has in fighting it, we would have high-speed rail well on its way to being operational," she said.
She defended the bullet train, saying it would create jobs and ease highway congestion. She pointed out that the Legislature had already allocated funds for high-speed rail five years ago -- before voters approved a constitutional amendment calling for it. Bush squashed the project just two weeks after he was elected.
"The only person trying to derail the train here is the governor," Dockery said.
Tallahassee Bureau Chief John Kennedy contributed to this report. Jason Garcia can be reached at jrgarcia@orlandosentinel.com or 850-222-5564.
Copyright © 2004, Orlando Sentinel | Get home delivery - up to 50% off
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I cut and paste it all because you need to register to log in :)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The $40 goes to support the Museum's programs.
The discounts are merely a benefit to the member. If the discounts were intended to completely offset or even exceed the membership fee, you would have to pay income tax on it.
If you think of it in terms of a donation to help keep a valuable historic resource operating, then it's by all means worth it. My dos pesos.
Your pal,
Fred
3 New Albums
I'm also including a link to my original albums. I have added some new pictures there including photos from Dec. 29th MOD trip, but didn't have time to post.
17 Albums from the original Transit Gallery
Enjoy.
I really enjoyed seeing the street level shots.
Your pal,
Fred
So, keep an eye out and again thank you for the compliment.
Questions: Is this shortcut still operating and did the shortcut use non-revenue trackage?
The Green Line shortcut was put in to service to allow trains off the outer northern E Route Green line between West Hyattsville (E07) and Greenbelt (E10) to get passengers in to the down core without having to make one or more transfers. The reason for running this service was because the outer northern E Route Green line was isolated from the downtown and southern sections of the E and F Route Green line. It was stared as an experiment and was continued until the mid city segment of the E Route Green line between U Street (E03) and Fort Totten (B06, E06) opened.
Questions: Is this shortcut still operating and did the shortcut use non-revenue trackage?
No, when the mid city segment of the E Route Green line between U Street (E03) and Fort Totten (B06, E06) opened there was no need to continue the service because the outer northern E Route Green line was no longer isolated from the southern sections of the E and F Route Green line.
Yes, non revenue trackage was used. The B and E connector was used to shuttle trains between the outer northern E Route Green line and the B Route Red line.
See track schematic for configuration of the B and E connector. The B and E connector is located in the area of Fort Totten (B06, E06).
John
As I recall, when the outer Green Line to Red Line connector was in use, it was probably the only place on a rapid transit line in North America where trains in both directions used a single track in regular service. (I'm excluding emergency wrong-railing and shuttles like Franklin and 42nd Street.)
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
Regardless, I'm glad I had the chance to ride the Green & Red in both directions.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
I got to ride as well on the last Independence Day before the mid city segment opened. Got some rail fan window shots coming up the B and E connector southbound on to the B route. I also spent some time one morning shooting pictures through the fence at the interlocking.
John
Once in awhile you'd get the Red Line rider borading and not paying attention that the Green Line was entering the station and not the Red only to be kicked off at Farragut North, or "Farragut N" as the sign read.
So if I understand it correctly based on the schematic, trains using the B/E connector bypassed Fort Totten entirely?
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Yes that is correct. Passengers destine for Fort Totton (E06) or points north on the B Route Red Line had to get off at Brookland (B05) the transfer to a Silver Spring (B08) or Glenmont (B11) bound train.
John
Michael
Washington, DC
Peek hours only, service in both directions during peek, AM and PM, Greenbelt trains were signed Greenbelt with Green icon, Farragut North trains were signed Farragut North with Red icon.
John
You are correct, I have a photo I shot at Greenbelt (E10) during the same day I shot pictures going through the A and B connector with the side sign showing FARRAGUT N, you can barely see the Green icon to the left.
John
Peek hours only, service in both directions during peek, AM and PM, Greenbelt trains were signed Greenbelt with Green icon, Farragut North trains were signed Farragut North with Red icon.
John
In any case, it seems to have worked unusually in my favor. I should guarantee a digital camera for use next weekend, just in time for this GO!
Thanks MTA!
If only you had $10 for each typo you found…
Robert
I guess we would pronounce 'RESCEDULED' with a 'sh' and the British would do it with a hard 'sk.'
NO # 4 service from Brooklyn Bridge to Atlantic Ave
NO # 5 Service from E 180 Street to Bowling Green
Also Shuttle Busses only from 149 GC to E 180 Street
DUH!
By the way, when did transitgallery transfer your photos? Did they email you to let you know?
He emailed me to tell me that he will soon be taking down the old gallery, and wanted to know if I wanted any of the old photos in the new gallery before he deletes the old gallery.
I did pay for the "upgraded" account back in December. I don't know if he did that for the "free" accounts or not.
Though this werid service I've been using lately just for hotlinking gives me a count on page views, it's amazing how many times a thread can be clicked on.
Yup. It is amazing how many people read SubTalk too. Back in June I posted a link to an imagestation album from a MOD trip. I only posted that link on SubTalk. Within about 2 hours, there were almost 200 hits on my imagestation album already! So that means at least 200 people clicked on the thread - and that was just the people that actually clicked to see the album! The only place I posted the link was SubTalk, so that't the only way they could have known about the album.
til next time
That's interesting, no brown R this time but nonetheless a rare occasion so railfans be prepared next week for pic opportunities.
wayne
I don't think Pacific would be named on the GO if it were not where these trains were platforming, although I agree with Victor that relaying at Prospect Park would probably be simpler. Assuming that trains from Jamaica are not simply being routed through (which would screw up the regular weekend timetable and work assignments, yes?) Essex middle track and Pacific SB express track do seem like the best bets for the terminals, with D and N running express on the local track SB. (And all services having to wait a lot for each other to cross over in both directions.)
Today we play with blocks.
Play with blocks you say? They pay you all that money to go to work and
play with blocks? Aren't you just a little old for that?
Yes, we play with blocks and yes, they pay us for this. As for the too old
part, the beautiful bride is still waiting for me to catch up to my age.
She does accuse me and some of my friends of acting like we are still in
kindergarten. Well, were not acting. Someday if I ever grow up, I'll quit
playing with blocks and just retire.
There are two types of blocks on the railroad and they are completely
different creatures. One of them refers to a specific length of track,
usually between two signals or station signs. The other type of block is a
group of cars bound for the same station destination. These will be the
blocks we are going to play with today.
A block usually contains two or more cars. However it is not unusual for a
block to have only one car. Within a block of cars not every car in every
block is bound for the exact same final destination at a particular given
station. For an example, we'll use Effingham, IL on the CN.
In the Effingham block are cars billed to local industries located in and
around Effingham on the Champaign and Effingham Subdivisions, connections
to the Indiana Rail Road and also CSX (the former Conrail). Within this
Effingham block the cars will be shot gunned or mine run; that is, not
classified. They don't break down the block with little "sub blocks" as it
were. This solid block of cars for Effingham will have to be switched out
by one of the assignments there and the cars forwarded to either the
industries or the connecting railroads. Some railroads though may break the
large block down into sub blocks within it to simplify the operation.
In larger yards there might be enough tracks to allow for each track to be
assigned a particular block. This is very common in hump yards and larger
flat switching classification yards. We had designations for each track in
the bowl at Blue Island on the IHB. Being that we handled so many blocks to
and from so many railroads, the block assignments to a particular track
often changed during the course of a day. This was done when there was a
great deal of cars for one block on hand and a lesser amount for another
block.
Some examples of blocks built at Blue were Battle Creek (BCRK), Flat Rock
(FLAT) and Sarnia (SARN) for the Grand Trunk Western. For CP Rail there
were Montreal (MONT) and Toronto (TORT), later consolidated into a single
block called MORT. There was also a D&H block as there was also a daily
train originated at Blue destined for the former D&H Railway, now owned by
the CP. Eventually the D&H train was discontinues and this block was
blended into the Montreal block. These cars were then handled on the daily
Blue Island to Montreal train. There were several blocks for IHB proper
including Michigan Avenue (MAVE), Argo (ARGO), Norpaul (NORP) and a block
for open top cars assigned to steel service known as OPEN.
We also classified several separate blocks for CSX including a Grand Rapids
(GRPD), Willard (WILL), Nashville (NASH) and Barr Yard (BARR). The BARR
block was comprised of cars for industries around the Chicago/Northwest
Indiana area and cars bound for destinations short of the other three CSX
blocks. CSX reclassified this business at Barr for the proper short blocks.
Two different transfer assignments took cars from Blue to Barr Yard daily.
Having much of this business pre-blocked saved CSX from having to re-switch
everything when it arrived from the IHB. They could just marry these blocks
right up with business they have already classified there and save
considerable time on car detention.
Being that there were forty-four tracks in the hump, there were usually at
least forty-one or so tracks with blocks assigned to them. Depending upon
traffic levels, there were several tracks that were not designated for one
block. We might dump two blocks into one track and re-hump them later to
straighten them out. Oddball cars, no bill cars and cars having been
weighed were dumped into a single track known as the rehump track. It was
commonly referred to as the "Sluff" track. Oftentimes when there were no
other cars for a particular block and an overflow of cars for another
block, we might "turn" them to such a track. This frequently occurred and
worked well when it was matching two blocks for the same train.
For example, we have no more cars for say MAVE to hump but quite a few cars
for Elkhart (ELKS) cars to hump. We could start dumping ELKS cars on top of
the MAVE cars in that track. When the pull down assignment that couples and
pulls that track out to set it over to the departure yard, the East
Yardmaster would inform the Conductor of that job to make a cut on that
track leaving the ELKS cars behind in that track. They would just take the
MAVE cars with them swinging them over. Now there is more room in this
track and it becomes all ELKS.
In smaller yards such as Markham, each track might contain several blocks
that are re-switched to then separate them into each respective block.
Being that Markham is not overly abundant with freight classification
tracks that second scenario plays out frequently here. Cars bound for the
CSX and IHB are sent into the same track. Later in the afternoon, this
track is pulled out and switched to separate the two blocks and lining them
up correctly.
To demonstrate how blocking works, let's take a train on the CN. The train
leaves Markham bound for Centralia. It will have a block of cars to be set
out at Kankakee on the head end, a block of cars for Champaign right behind
them, a block of cars for Effingham behind that and then the Centralia
cars. Everything is all put together nice and neat. Each block is set out
in order along the way without having to switch out the entire train at
each of the above mentioned locations.
Now here comes one of the twists. Suppose this train is scheduled to make a
pick up at Champaign? And normally scheduled in the Champaign pick up are
cars bound for Effingham. One of several scenarios may play out here and
we'll examine two of them. In scenario one the train can retain its normal
blocking and do a little shuffling at Champaign. The crew making the set
out would come into the yard with both the Effingham and Champaign blocks.
They would set out the Effingham block on top of the pick up to be made,
cut away from that and then set out the Champaign block on another track.
This method might be preferred if there is a large block of Centralia's
being picked up in addition to the Effingham cars. When the outbound crew
goes back to their train, they now have the Effingham block from the
inbound train on top of the Effingham block being picked up. Behind this
would be any Centralia bound cars. When doubled back to the train, the
Centralia cars picked up then fall right against the Centralia cars that
came in from Chicago and the blocking is kept pure.
In scenario two, they leave the Effingham block on the train and set out
the Champaign block and then make the pick up and double back to the train.
The pick up could have the Centralia's on the head end and the Effingham
cars on the rear. This would have the Effingham's all fall together and
they would be set out in one clean block behind the Centralia cars on the
head end. When the train was put back together at Effingham after setting
out there, the Centralia's would then all fall together. Plus, if a pick up
was being made at Effingham of more Centralia's, there would be no blocking
problems as the entire train is now all for Centralia.
Now suppose after leaving Champaign with all the Effingham's together on
the head end, the crew is instructed to pick up a block of cars at Mattoon
that are bound for Centralia. And suppose the pick up is quite a few cars,
you don't want to bury the Effingham cars if you don't have to. So the crew
would hang onto the Effingham cars and make the Mattoon pick up behind
them.
Whenever possible, you try to keep the blocks all together. If this is not
practicable, you try to arrange things so that when you make set outs along
the way, the blocks will eventually fall together. In the case of the train
we are describing today, the pick up at Champaign has the Centralia's first
out followed by the Effingham's. When the Effingham block is finally set
out, the Centralia cars will then all fall together.
Normally there is a demand to keep all the blocks "pure" en route. This
means having to pick up "in block." Owing to circumstances created by the
nature of the beast, you have to pick up cars for the furthest destination
in the train before you get to Champaign. We have done this numerous times.
You are to pick up say twenty-five loads of grain for Centralia at Chebanse
with the instructions to make the pick up in block. This means you will
have to hang on to the Champaign and Effingham blocks to make the Chebanse
pick up. Ya, this can be a huge pain in the ass that takes quite a bit of
time, but this is what you have been instructed to do, so you follow the
instructions.
Prior to the practice of separating cars into blocks, all cars headed in
the same general direction were simply gathered up and put into a train.
This method is often referred to as shot gunning or mine running the cars.
When the train reached the next yard along the way, it would be yarded, the
cars for that location would be switched out, additional cars added and the
train would depart for the next major yard along the route. This was highly
unproductive and labor intensive. The train made numerous stops with
extended delays each of these locations
Then in the early twentieth century, somebody in the rail industry figured
out that this method was highly inefficient. Railcars took extended
journeys to get there from here as they were handled in just about every
yard that came along. Aside from the incredible delays, there was the risk
of damaging the lading within the car as it was being switched so many
times.
The current CN operating plan has cars bound from Chicago to points south
of Centralia mine run in a single Centralia block. Upon arrival at
Centralia, the train is yarded and switched out. The train is then blocked
for points south. There will be several different blocks built at Centralia
and the train will be put back together and run to final destinations such
as Memphis, TN or Jackson, MS. In some cases though, there may be blocks of
cars within the Centralia block that are already pretty well classified. So
this will save some of the re-switching that must be performed.
When Conrail was still around, Elkhart Yard in that Northern Indiana city
was the major classification yard on west end of Conrail's northern
portion. Elkhart was and continues to be under Norfolk Southern, a hub and
spoke type of operation. Trains en route to the East Coast, Michigan and
beyond to Canada and also south to Indianapolis and southeast destinations
originate at Elkhart. Westbound trains from these same locations terminate
at Elkhart and are humped there creating new trains to connect with other
roads in Chicago.
Most eastbound manifest trains out of Chicago were destined for Elkhart. In
the days of Conrail, most of the manifest freight trains out of Chicago
carried symbols like BNEL (Burlington Northern to Elkhart), CJEL (Chicago
Junction - Ashland Avenue Yard to Elkhart) or PREL (CNW Proviso Yard to
Elkhart). Many of these trains had cars being mine run to Elkhart where
they would be classified and then sent east from there in properly blocked
trains.
Some of these trains would have a pure block on the head end though. There
might be a block of cars bound for Conway (near Pittsburgh) or Selkirk
(near Albany). Such blocks would be set out on a siding along the Chicago
Line short of Elkhart. A through eastbound train coming out of Chicago that
was not scheduled to be switched out at Elkhart that was scheduled to go
right to Conway or Selkirk would stop and pick up such cars and forward
them to the proper destination. Trains like PXPI (Perishable Express to
Pittsburgh-Conway Yard) and PXSE (Perishable Express to Selkirk) would pick
up such blocks set out by other trains. This helped reduce some of the
congestion at Elkhart. This method of operation is known as block swapping.
Many railroads use some method of block swapping as part of their normal
operations.
Numerous westbound trains also called Elkhart the final terminal. Cars from
these trains would also be humped and reclassified. Solid trains for the
BN, IHB, Santa Fe, CNW, Soo Line, BRC or Ashland Avenue Yard were built and
dispatched west from Elkhart. These trains could and did have blocks built
for the connecting roads as well. They could also have a block of cars for
destinations short of Chicago, such as Burns Harbor, IN or IHB Michigan
Avenue Yard. Westbound trains carried symbols like ELBN or ELCJ. In
building trains in this manner at Elkhart, Conrail was able to eliminate or
reduce the size of several Chicago area yards. Using Elkhart as the hub
allowed Conrail to close the former Pennsylvania Railroad yard at 59th
Street. The old Chicago Junction Yard at Ashland Ave was downsized and the
old New York Central Englewood Yard was converted from a freight
classification yard to an intermodal terminal. This saved Conrail
considerable money and delays over the years.
Jumping back to block swapping for a minute, The Wisconsin Central did a
considerable amount of block swapping in their infancy. It was not for cost
effectiveness, but rather out of necessity. In those early days when car
logs and records were "mysteriously" wiped out of the computer system, the
railroad quickly became congested with cars. Cars were everywhere with no
records indicating their destinations. Yards quickly jammed full and there
was no room to switch what was coming in. To clear out space, all trains
destined for Chicago would get most, if not all the blocks for Chicago
connections. En route these trains would stop and set out some of the
blocks and pick up others that would normally be handled on that train.
This was a very time consuming affair that also stole sidings from the
Dispatchers. Several of the passing sidings were being used to stage the
block swapping. As a result, there were fewer sidings available between
Fond du Lac and Waukesha for meets. It was a nightmare for all involved,
but somehow, the logjam finally managed to work loose and the railroad did
get straightened out.
There were a couple of places where block swapping continued even after the
crisis of congestion had been cleared up. Neenah was one location. Blocks
from trains coming out of Stevens Point destined for Fond du Lac, such as
T008 and T002, would set out cars bound for points in such as Green Bay,
the Upper Peninsula of Michigan and Canada. Train T011 (Fond du Lac to
Gladstone, MI) would pick up these cars. Train T020 (Green Bay to Fond du
Lac) would set out cars en route to Canada or the Upper Peninsula for T011
to pick up at Center Valley on the Shawano Sub. In all of these examples,
it kept these cars out of Shops Yard in North Fond du Lac and helped keep
the operation smooth while also reducing detention time on these cars.
To expedite the operation of picking up and setting out en route, different
methods are also employed for blocking. For example, the MoPac used to
block their intermodal trains operating from Chicago to Dallas and Chicago
to Fort Worth backwards. The Dallas or Fort Worth Block would be on the
head end of the train with the shorter blocks following.
As an example, the CFZ train had Fort Worth cars on the head end and Little
Rock cars behind. When the train reached North Little Rock, the crew could
make a pick up of Fort Worth cars to be added to the head end while a yard
crew could grab the tail end picking the Little Rock cars off the train
simultaneously. This saved considerable terminal delay in North Little
Rock. If locomotives had to be changed out at North Little Rock, the
outbound crew could get them and be coupled onto the pick up waiting for
the inbound train to cut off and go to the round house. In the meantime,
the yard crew would be handling the cut off cars from the tail end of the
train. Such an operation had the train back on the move far quicker, which
allowed for a tighter operating schedule and better on time performance.
Back in the days of cabooses, to expedite even quicker, the tail end crew
could cut the caboose off the train short of the switch the yard crew would
use to reach out and grab the Little Rock block. Once cleared from the
train and the head end work completed, the entire train would then be
shoved back onto the caboose and coupled back up. The yard crew would not
have to come back out with the caboose and couple it back onto the train,
unless the caboose had to be changed out.
Yes some intermodal trains also have blocks. The business on these trains
isn't always bound for just one location. Being that some intermodal trains
travel a great distance to get from here to there, they will have blocks of
cars for intermediate terminals. An intermodal train traveling from New
York to Chicago could have several blocks for destinations in between these
two major gateways as well as cars that went west beyond Chicago. Conrail
operated TV-221 from Marysville, OH (near Columbus) to the CNW at Proviso
Yard near Chicago. As many of you already know, Marysville is the home of
Honda's US car assembly plant. TV-221 departed Marysville with a block of
finished Hondas on the head end that would be set out at the IHB's Gibson
Yard in Hammond, IN. The rest of the train went on through to Proviso Yard
with finished Hondas for both domestic and overseas destinations as well as
double stack containers also en route across the pond via the Union Pacific
from Chicago to Seattle.
Some intermodal trains carry a block of cars that will be set out at a
location to become yet another train. These cars will be coupled up with
new power and crew and perhaps some other business and operated as a
separate train going to a different final terminal. This is a cost
effective measure as the set out block is likely not large enough to
justify a separate train to handle it across its entire route. When set out
and possibly married up with more cars en route to the same destination,
the cost effectiveness improves dramatically.
Conrail used to be big on this method. They had one of their intermodal or
TV trains (with TV coming from "Trailvan" the name they designated their
intermodal service trailers) that originated in New York that would set out
a portion of their train at Cleveland. This block of cars would be married
up to intermodal business originating at Cleveland and run west as TV-53.
This train was made up of intemodal and automobile traffic bound for
several locations on the MoPac and Santa Fe.
Upon the train's arrival at Momence, IL where Conrail's Kankakee Secondary
crossed and connected to the MoPac's Chicago Subdivision, the blocks of
cars bound for MoPac destinations would be set out there. Later in the day
southbound MoPac train CFZ would stop and pick these cars up adding them to
their train, and doing so in block. This method of operation kept this
business out of the congested Chicago Terminal and prevented any delays
that could be incurred there.
I made this pick up move at Momence numerous times and here is how it would
work. We would make a cut in between the Fort Worth and North Little Rock
blocks. Remember now, the Fort Worth block is on the head end of the train.
We would double to the cars left for us by Conrail which also had the Fort
Worth block on the head end with the North Little Rock block behind it. We
would then pull this all out and double it back to the rest of our train.
The blocking would all fall together keeping it all pure and eliminate the
need for having to make extra switching moves on the train down the road.
Railroads as small as the IHB would block their own trains bound for
destinations on the own property routinely. As an example, the daily train
heading from Blue Island to the Lakefront Yard in East Chicago's Indiana
Harbor section would carry three separate blocks; Gibson, Michigan Avenue
and Lakefront. The train would stop and set out at Gibson and the Avenue on
their trip east en route to the Lakefront. This method keeps cars out of
the yards where they don't need to be, saves unnecessary switching and
transfer of these cars between the above mentioned yards and also reduces
detention time and delays to such cars.
Another train that was blocked was the train often referred to by the Argo
crews as the "set out" train. This was train BA-4 (Blue Island AM 4
o'clock) which carried several blocks of cars for Corn Products Corporation
(CPC) and also a block of cars for the yard at Argo. This block was
comprised of cars bound for various industries served by the industry jobs
working out of Argo. A switch crew at Blue Island would classify the cars
bound for Corn Products over in the West Yard at Blue and later the block
of Argo proper cars would be added to this business and BA-4 would then
take it west.
Upon this train's arrival and yarding at Argo, the 910 job, the first job
of the day at Argo that normally handled all of the Corn Products
switching, would couple onto the rear of this train and then shove all the
cars bound for CPC right into their yard located right around the corner
from the west end of Argo Yard. CPC had their own in plant railroad that
performed most of the work within their facility but we had their business
broken down into several blocks to allow them to expedite moves within
their plant in a much timelier manner.
Even local trains that service industries along their regular journey are
normally blocked. In some cases some locals may have a dozen or more blocks
to them with only a handful of cars in each. Such blocking eliminates the
need for the local crew to have to switch out their train every time they
stop to service an industry.
So yes indeed kids, it is quite important for us to play with our blocks
while on the job and get paid for it. There is quite a big difference
between railroad blocks and the building blocks we played with as kids
though; we don't want to stack up nor pile up the railroad blocks as it
will usually damage the cars and their lading and tear up the railroad. And
that would be a really bad thing.
"Bad, bad, really, really bad!"
And so it goes.
Tuch
Hot Times on the High Iron, ©2004 by JD Santucci
It seems that the glitches that plagued the line during the inordinately long testing phase has been resolved [probably thanks to the warmer weather these last two weeks], eithet that, or Warrington's ire kind of kicked Bombardier/Bechtel's ass and made them get their sh%t together OR ELSE. [If anyone close to the project has any info to fill in the gaps, please post on this board.]
I have seen more printed schedules, and the "Owner's Manual" out at the Transportation Center, but no maps at the stations themselves. Maybe they will be put up this week.
If there is more to tell you between now and the 14th, I will post on the board.
Highlights will be posted individually in a little while...
Click photo to go to index:
I cracked a smile when you had that 'Final Approach' message come up. Great job!
My server has been acting funny the last day or so. I don't know if you notice but the gallery was down.
I think I fixed it though.
Can you do me a fave and upload a photo or 2 and let me know how it's going?
-ALSO, I am planning on making a 2nd Av subway as well as a 10th or 11th Av subway. I will eventually also move the (7/S) and (L) to NJ.
-One more thing i would do is make an IND Queens to Bronx Train=Queens blvd thru 53rd st along CPW and on to Concourse.
-Enjoy this slightly newer map, and REMEMBER, ITS A FANTASY Map
CLICK on map to ENLARGE PS-when you open it, you cannot right click. i didnt do this, its the web server.
Pretty cute thing with the scrolling message with the 'N, E and W' bullets. :)
Oh and here is the unlinked URL to the slightly updated map;
http://www.transitgallery.com/data/b53b3a3d6ab90ce0268229151c9bde11/205_p8709.jpg
Here is the previous one;
http://www.transitgallery.com/data/b53b3a3d6ab90ce0268229151c9bde11/205_p8530.jpg
You were kind of in a hurry to get them publish as there is some trash in both of them in Queens along the F line and under the ledgen.
John
No Myrtle Avenue subway either :( Try and squeeze that onto the SAS when you include that, TIA.
Oh yes, restore that Sea Beach Line Express too, I'm sure I am not the only fan of that . . .
And of course, thanks for the much-needed LGA stop and not sending the infernal JFK Redress there.
Great job
The MTA should borrow from your bold, out of scale, representation of AirTrain....a much better way to communicate how this service works than the faint Airtrain route lines I saw on a map last week.
www.forgotten-ny.com
More people ride the V than others think. Middays are a different story but people ARE riding it during the rush hours.
That could explain it.
If anyone has this game and is interested, i have found a website with the REDBIRDS!
CLICK HERE FOR TRAIN-SIM.comYou need to Sign-Up(sorry)
-Chris
Acela
I don't think there are any NYCTA-specific routes yet.
There ARE some subway and elevated routes, however. Someone did Chicago Elevated Railways. There's also a couple fictional subway routes, supposedly from germany and Sweden. Thos might suffice for now...
http://mta.info/nyct/service/pdf_f/11_fav.pdf
Workers dig hole, a first step to tie LIRR to Grand Central
Construction in Long Island City will provide tunnel access
BY JOIE TYRRELL
STAFF WRITER
March 5, 2004, 6:02 PM EST
Workers have dug a 150-foot-deep hole in Long Island City that serves as one of the first steps of the East Side Access project, a multibillion-dollar transit plan linking the Long Island Rail Road to Grand Central.
LIRR President James Dermody said Friday that workers have taken down buildings on one city block and dug a pit that will provide access for the railroad to the existing 63rd Street tunnel that will eventually carry Long Islanders to the east side of Manhattan.
However, Dermody cautioned that this is preliminary work on the East Side Access project that has yet to be fully funded.
"There is some progress being made in preliminary construction, not heavy construction," Dermody said. "These are the steps you have to take to proceed to full construction and we won't have full construction until we get full funding from the government.
"In the meantime you can't sit and do nothing, because the clock is ticking."
The East Side Access alignment connects to the LIRR's Port Washington Branch and Main Line tracks within the Harold Interlocking in Sunnyside, Queens. From Harold, the alignment proceeds through a set of five tunnels under Amtrak's Sunnyside Yard to a section that begins at the edge of the existing LIRR Yard.
In that section, the five tunnels merge into two tunnels, pass under Northern Boulevard, and meet the existing 63rd Street Tunnel structure immediately west of Northern Boulevard.
Dermody said the current construction project at Northern Boulevard and 41st Street allows crews to get a tunnel-digging machine below the surface and eventually crews will tunnel east toward Harold Interlocking.
Workers are also building a yard and a shop on Arch Street to handle the railcars to be used for East Side Access.
The project is expected to be complete in 2012.
But costs in recent months have continually increased with the pricetag of the project now at $6.3 billion. President Bush has allocated $75 million in this year's budget and $100 million in next year's proposed budget, the single largest project approved in transportation.
U.S. Rep. Peter King (R-Seaford) said Friday that he's optimistic the project will be fully funded. "There has been work going on for years at the work site and now there is new work," he said. "Certainly the MTA is going forward with its plans anticipating it is going to be done."
Also, the railroad is in negotiations with Amtrak as it needs to work out agreements with the rail provider. The LIRR needs easements to go under Sunnyside yard and must modify the track at Harold Interlocking.
"Those negotiations are moving," said Dermody, who is the lead negotiator in the talks.
Copyright © 2004, Newsday, Inc. | Article licensing and reprint options
Is this the first time a TBM is being used in New York City ?
Bill "Newkirk"
David
1) We're screwed, Pataki's plot is coming true. The suburbs get ESA, the city gets nothing but a lion's share of the bill.
2) We already have holes. That means the Second Avenue Subway is getting built too.
3) We already have holes. That means nothing is getting built.
You are half wrong.
Manhattan is the wealthiest county in the United States, by a wide margin. So many of those who make the economy flow live there. Many more live in the increasingly affluent areas near Manhattan. In fact, New York City's non-Hispanic whites are substantially more likely to have college diplomas than those living in the Downstate Suburban counties, according to the 2000 census.
What is indisputable is that Manhattan IS the state's economy. It accounted, directly, for half of all the income earned in the state in 2001. Not the city. Not the region. The state.
The question is, who will have better access to that, and will decent schools be made available to those living in the city, so more of the non-poor could live here?
Number 3 is a winner!
4) You need a shaft before you can get shafted!
The split 5/6 thing caught me by suprise.
http://www.utu.org/worksite/detail_news.cfm?ArticleID=12405 ("Bosses in employees' shoes get reality check")
The R-16's were kind of heavy. They rode better than the R-27/30's
" What noises did they make?"
Air compressor like on the R-17 and pretty much the same air brake sounds.
" Did they go fast?"
That one I can't answer. I never rode them on an express run. They were usually on the Jamaica Line (15) or Fourth Ave Local (RR).
Bill "Newkirk"
Locals forever.
Leaving 34th street and heading for W 4th is usually a very fast ride. And I really wanted to see how fast those R16s could go. So I stood talking with the m/m who had his cab door half way open and seemed happy to chat. He opened the controller all the way and we bucked and bumped out of 34th street with a series of jolts. But as we started to gain speed, I don't think our R16s got much past maybe 35MPH. The m/m clearly had the contoller wide open. But the train seemed to have no capacity to reach normal speed for that express track (at least 45 - 55 MPH back in the days before they slowed the trains down.)
Noises on the R16s - think flat spots. Seems to me that there was a higher likelihood of riding an R16 with flat spots than just about anything else on the system.
Hahahahhahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!
I'm sorry, I just never heard "R16" and "fast" in the same sentence before.....
Just kidding. As mentioned, they were perfect for the local lines. They were bought for the Eastern Division, and did spend most of their lives there. I really hated them at the time I rode them (late 70's and 80's). They were dirty and prone to breakdowns. When riding an R16, you never knew what station you would wind up getting out at. The one at the Transit Museum looks NOTHING like they looked like in service.
I do love them though now, and only wish I could ride one of those rolling disasters again. I did enjoy them through the 14th Street tubes too.
R17 #6500-6699 made this noise.
R17 #6700-6899 did not make this noise.
Would it be safe to say that the 65 and 6600s were GEs?
Also, does the same rule apply to the R21/R22s?
R21 #7050-7149 and R22 #7500-7749 also made this noise. In fact from what I remember, the 7500s had the loud whining sound, whereas the 76 and 7700s had this moaning sound.
R21 #7150-7299 and R22 #7300-7499 didn't make the noise at all.
I rode on them only twice, 19 years apart, for short hops. I do remember the original olive drab exterior, vertical door pockets and BMT number curtains.
til next time
til next time
Nice to see another R42 fan around here. Do you like the 44's?
til next time
That've would've been amazing to ride. Can you say R16/R42 mixup? It's probably impossible but it would still be cool.
Not even that long ago! A few months ago!
CI has received about 140 total cars from ENY since 2002, including all 99 R40M's, about 30 R40 slants and 9 to 11 R42's.
Storage? There were 3 sets of R42's running on the L line during the PM rush.
The 10's were noisy as hell, all bombed out and made every trip feel like you were completely out of control. I loved them - especially barreling down the hill into Fulton Street or crashing over an interlocking! Also great door sounds.
The R-10s weren't as loud in the late 60s. I never had to hold my ears while rocketing up CPW. OTOH if you were standing at 81st St. n/b, you'd get quite an earful as they thundered past. Those cars were tailor-made for the A.
At least you could fit in one without damaging a vital organ.
M7s: www.bombardier.com go to core business->Bombardier Transportation->Rail Vehicles->Rail vehicles->commuter/regional trains->commuter-M7 I think LIRR started getting them around 2002, but I could be wrong.
I especially like the bent shots of the Bronx portion of the 3rd Avenue el.
Thanks again.
Chuck
Mark
Chuck
Cecil used my letter to respond here, essentially changing his opinion of just how honest author Jennifer Toth was in her writing.
A simple Internet search would have found Joe Brennan's comments, and a little more research would have confirmed that GCT has NO undocumented parts. Even Cecil mea culpa is gentle to Toth, reluctent to call the "hole" book a work of non-fiction.
The early 1990s were a rough time in NYC, when GCT, Penn Station, subways, and nearly every other public space a homeless shelter, but that does not excuse this fantasy job.
I think you mean reluctant to call the book a work of fiction, which it surely is. Actually, "fantasy" is more like it.
http://mtude.com/FreakLife/Exploration/index.php
(under 'toth vs. brennan'...
Oh please. Mtude seems to be written by a couple of 15-year-olds who'd be piddling their pants if they ever went near a real abandoned tunnel.
Chuck
The Rockaway peninsula extends westward from Nassau County. It is connected by Nassau County, but not to New York City, by land, and is served by the Long Island Lighting company, not Con Edison. A Long Island Railroad Line through the "five towns" area of Nassau County has its last stop in New York City, in Far Rockaway.
Although the Rockaways are part of Queens' politically, the social history is different. In the 1960s, the city placed most of Queens public housing, welfare recipients, and nursing homes for the poor there. Prior to that, however, Far Rockaway could be considered a social extension of the Five Towns. And much of the rest of the Peninsula was linked to Brooklyn. Even today, the western end is pretty much a Brooklyn colony.
If I were to split hairs I could note that Inwood, Lawrence and Cedarhurst, and maybe even Woodmere, are pretty much on the Rockway pennisnula, and they're part of Nassau County. East Rockaway, despite its name, would really be pushing it. But no I'm not the kind to split hairs...or aaaaam I?
:-) Andrew
If they had cut the NYCTA portion of the line from the LIRR portion one stop further out instead of at Far Rockaway, yes, that would be the A's route--alas. Inwood is the community in Nassau adjacent to Far Rockaway, just past the city limits (which is why the A didn't wind up going that far), and the second to last station on the current LIRR Far Rockaway line.
While most of Far Rockaway is fairly run-down, its easternmost portion, along the Nassau line, is a stable, fairly prosperous Orthodox Jewish community.
It hasn't been LILCO for several years. I is now LIPA (Long Is Power Authority)
How can I forget. So a part of Queens ended up involved in the whole Shoreham disaster.
Excuse the typo. I'm certainly not LIPA. I meant IT is now LIPA!!!
Why does this misconception never die?
Satan Andrew Green never intended for the eastern towns of Queens County to become part of the The Beast Greater New York. In fact, they remained part of Queens County for one year after the rest of Queens was devoured. Nassau County became the 61st county in New York State and only one of two formed since the 1850s on January 1, 1899.
In practical terms, the Rockaways, if they did secede, would be a backwater of Nassau County.
Even if you don't like NYC, that would be like moving in with a rapist so you couold get away from a burglar.
"The process by which SEPTA nearly awarded a $236 million contract for rail cars was so fouled up it's hard to tell whether the controversial low bid should get the work."
"The riding public, with its priorities of safe service at an efficient cost, has to wince at the shenanigans."
-- David
Brooklyn, NY
As to the local employment plan, Philly could use the jobs even though they are short term.
I have one photo, which some of you may have seen before.
here is the url:
http://www.transitgallery.com/data/66f041e16a60928b05a7e228a89c3799/218_p8711.jpg
I'll post more in the future.
I have some pictures on transitgallery too. Its pretty good, but when u open a pic in a new window (see full image), it disables right-click, which might be good in some cases...
Click on this photo for my gallery
-Chris
D1-1405 X10
E 53RD ST WTC
V 53RD ST STILL
R 60TH STREET MAN
G CROSSTOWN
D5
according to local superintendants on the B Division, when the R160s arrive, they plan to extend the V.
wayne
Whatever the short turn train is has to be the local. It doesn't make sense to have the F run Express if it is starting at Church. The expresses will be empty as you are only getting passengers from Church before already skipping stations. The short turn train ending/starting at church has to be the local train, while the Coney Island train is the express north of Church.
So the F should be the express running to COney ISland, and the V should be the local terminating at Church.
It is a long ride however. One option might be rush hour only peak direction express service.
Currently, you have 15 F trains serving Queens and 14 serving Brooklyn during the rush hour. The base F service is 8. It seems that the extra trains are one-trippers -- one trip in the AM rush and one in the PM rush. I'ts too far to go back the other way during the same rush hour. You can't have more than 14 F trains from Brooklyn, because the F has to merge with E on Queens Boulevard.
One option would be to have 15 Fs from Queens in the morning, which would return from Queens in the afternoon, but only the 8 base F trains serving Brooklyn. These would run local from Coney Island. And, you'd run 8-10 other trains express from Kings Highway in the morning, and from Queens in the afternoon, either as extended Vs or as F diamonds or something. The G would run to Church.
On the other end, the F diamond or Vs that did not fit on the QB express tracks could be diverted to the QB local tracks via 63rd. They could even be run up CPW and turned around up there. The point is, you'd only be adding a few TPH overall.
My station would lose out, in that it would have fewer F trains at rush hour. To balance this, it could keep the G 24/7.
wayne
The problem is that the Culver is on the in-between. Not enough riders to justify frequent service local and express. Too long a ride to be local all the way.
I think what I suggested is a fair solution. Get us local riders up to 8 trains to Manhattan, plus the G, and inner stations would be treated fairly -- if the G is retained, along with all the Fs, during non-rush hours. Outer stations would also live with 8, but have them move faster.
The only problem I can see is if some riders south of Church stay on the local, leaving those north of Church with both longer waits and more crowding.
Nah... The standees will switch to the almost empty express at Church, giving less crowded trains for Park Slope commuters.
And why longer wait? Service will only increase by means of an express V. Those on the G between Smith-9 and Bergen already get off the G for an F at Bergen. Just put up electronic signs that guides you to the next Manhattan bound train platform.
Actually, 2nd Av. needs the same type of signage. I don't need to know which V will leave first. I want to know which track will the next uptown train leave.
That's something that might have to be done via E-Mail.
Acela
______________
\__/__________
X____________
/__\__________
AFAIK, no one has shown a counter opinion to prove otherwise, unless you change the track configuration. (I may have have missed a few posts) But it is from Subtalk and not from any official source. I already mentionned that "There has been discussion about how Church Av. cannot turn two local services during rush. " in a recent post in this thread. I actually hope to hear that it's not the case, from a proven source.
1.Distance over which a crossing must be wrong-railed
2. Pockets for trains to reverse. (To a lesser degree)
Seeing as the switch is AFTER the station, the wrong-railing problem IS NOT an issue, as the train can prepare to reverse direction immediately after crossing the switch. There are 2 pockets to hold trains.
Thus, the only issue here is how long it takes a train to be fumigated. Other than that, there is no reason why Church could not turn both the V and G trains.
Personally, I think the line would be of great use to the subway system, but the cutthroat NIMBY's who live along the ROW will fight tooth and nail for it. In theory, the city could take over the land by means of Eminent Domain, but you run into 2 critical issues: Funds to allocate to maintain the ROW; something I bet the city can't do at this point and that the NIMBY's have friends in local politicians...
I don't think that would be necessary, as the line is owned by either the state, city, or MTA. It is not privately owned, and the ROW is intact (meaning none of it has been sold off like many other abandoned LIRR lines).
As for marv, this has come up quite a few times. To read more about the Rockaway line, search through the SubTalk archives. If you use "Rockaway" as a subject in the searching, you will probably come up with plenty of reading about it.
Think about it. It's been 42 years since the last train ran on that ROW, but it remains totally intact. I believe the city is saving it as a last resort.
Airtrain was done in order to avoid the uproar that would have occured if they tried to put that ROW back in service. I don't think that it would necessarily hurt the Jamaica portion of Airtrain. But remember, I said that opening that ROW would be the LAST option the city would use if they can't a better means of transportation for Rockaway.
Jamaica leg of airtrain wouldn't really be affected. I think most of the people who use that are comming from the suburban part of LI. Either way, they should just extend that part to LGA
Here's an impromptu plan (bear in mind I haven't taken any consequences to this yet): AFAIK, the ROW is wide enough for 4-tracks. So have two lines, an express 'H' and a local 'K.' The A and the Rockaway Park S are stripped from having to run to the Rockaways as the new H and K will serve it. I suppose they'll eventually connect to the Queens Bl. Line as the Second System intended.
When that proposal died, there was another 1970's proposal to use the r.o.w. to run trains directly to JFK Airport from Penn Station. AirTrain has ended that idea.
Not necesarily...They could use the rockaway line to connect to airtrain at howard beach. It's just onc you get to Howard Beach, which is better to have, the Airtrain becomming part of the A or the LIRR? Personally, I think the A would be better, but you could always spend another w/e billion and then some dollars to build another loop for LIRR (:
As far as connecting to the E: The E is packed enough as it is. I can see extending the E a little further, but not into the Rockaways. Queens Blvd. express tracks are already maxed out.
Where are we going?
Apparently we have a secret station on the lex.
Something you may not hear again for a long time
Cool, we now have a secret station all our own. Perhaps she was going to say 76th street, but was shot by charlie pellet.
I seen 3 other trains
Here's the official advisory, in the proper color for the 6:
When the cost of Organic LEDs comes down, the MTA might consider using those instead. They're much brighter than LCD displays (such as the flat-panel computer monitors or flat-panel HDTVs you see in stores).
Several people have posted here that they are overdue and late. Apparently based on the original schedule, they are not even due until next month.
Incidently, the R-17 Redbird add-on set which was recently delivered was originally due out in Nov 2003.
I have some more uhh, 'serious' photos here. Enjoy.
Your pal,
Fred
I think I've been spending too much time on SubTalk.
Acela
It should be noted that, IIRC, the high water table at that end of Brooklyn would complicate tunneling; the IND Second System proposals had both these lines elevated beyond the vicinity of Kings Highway.
Are there any other pamphlet language combos out there and what are they ?
Bill "Newkirk"
If a majority of the Chinese population in New York was from the Mainland, then it's possible we would have seen a Simplified Chinese version of the pamphlet.
>>>Your website has a article about the Cross Harbor Railroad that refers to it in the present tense as a still-active railroad. If you don't already know, the CHRR has been shut down by the city of New York, for it is deemed a throwback to a forgotten time that doesn't make sense in today's modern transportation system. While Bush yard and all the tracks on 1st and 2nd Avenues as well as 40th and 41st Streets are abandoned as of I think, December 2003, CHRR still operates on the Jersy side and pushes railroad carfloats to Redhook Terminal and is negociating the use of the 65th Street floatbridge, thought its been doing this for years with no sucess. Wayne Eastman, the head of CHRR is viewed as a maverick who won't face facts that his railroad is an outdated dinosaur. It parent company, New York Regional Rail, has other sources of income, such as their trucking branch.<<
www.forgotten-ny.com
NEW YORK REGIONAL RAIL is a transportation holding company. Its two principal subsidiaries are New York Cross Harbor Railroad ("NYCH") and JS Transportation.
NYCH owns and operates the only rail-float barge operation in the New York Harbor. NYCH serves businesses on both sides of the harbor with daily crossings between Jersey City, NJ and Brooklyn, NY. NYCH's operation provides New York City and Long Island with connections to the national rail freight system.
JST is a growing short-haul regional trucking company, whose clients include many Fortune 1000 companies. JST currently serves the Eastern United States
From the site....
"New York Cross Harbor Railroad (“NYCH”) is the Company’s rail subsidiary, which is part of the national railroad system and holds a Surface Transportation Board certificate of convenience and necessity for the movement of rail freight by rail barge across New York Harbor. The Company operates from its Greenville Terminal Yard in Jersey City, New Jersey, and Bush Terminal Yard in Brooklyn, New York. On the West Side of New York Harbor, the Company exchanges (interchanges) rail cars with the Canadian Pacific (“CP”), CSX Transportation (“CSX”) and Norfolk Southern (“NS”) railroads at Conrail Shared Assets Operation's (“CSAO”) Oak Island interchange yard, New Jersey. On the East Side of New York Harbor, the Company interchanges rail cars with CP and the New York and Atlantic Railroad (“NYA”) at Bayridge Junction interchange yard, Brooklyn, NY."
There is more info at Railroad.net under "NY & Alt", "That Sinking Feeling"
David
David
R10s:
R16s:
R38s:
wayne
David
Chuck
There are more than 6 redbirds still in existence.
If they did they could run the trains on the 7 to celebrate the subway centennial.
In theory, they could.
Are there any plans to do so?
All plans available so far are posted at mta.info.
B Bonnici
And only two R143 consists (8205-08 and 8209-12) have the Siemens propulsion. The rest run with Kawasaki (or is it Adtranz?)
I remember someone here mentioned that Kawasaki cars run on Adtranz propulsion...I forgot who it was and which thread it was...
Woo-hoo! So that *was* the Siemens set that I saw (don't remember if I rode it) on Friday. It really didn't sound any different to me. I'll have to listen to the recordings of normal vs. Siemens back to back.
Kawasaki cars- ADTranz
B Bonnici
all you have to do is to hand build them from scratch...
which fully explains why I have not build any.
: ) Elias
A good start would be to look at
right here on the NYC Subway website.
Very useful information.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
http://home.att.net/~sctransit/NYCMTA1.htm
8 > ) ~ Sparky
The Life-Like HO R-17s run very well and look very good. I don't think $150 for the 4-car set is unreasonable.
--Mark
--Mark
The entrance will reopen on Monday the 15th with HEET's and MVM's installed and will be open 24 hours instead of 2 hours AM and 3 Hours PM.
Since two bus lines (B7/B82) stop right in front of the entance I can wait for the lines to back up in front of the HEETs and then when the card readers on the HEETs get dirty, all bets will be off.
What will the Agent at the 24hr entrance say when a parade of people with "just used" cards are presented??
Only if the MTA could install a HEET on the southside of avenue U station on the CI platform. The stairway still exists but has been closed since the early 1990's
5th Ave/60th st/BMT
149th st/Grand Concourse
Cortlandt St/BMT (both sides of Cortlandt St.)
What makes this relevant is SEPTA's Bouquet Pass. For $8 it provides unlimited travel on SEPTA subways, trolleys, and buses for one day from March 7 to 14. Big deal, so does the $5.50 Day Pass. The big deal is that the Bouquet Pass also provides unlimited rides on SEPTA Regional Rail (other than R7 Trenton line) beginning with trains that arrive or depart Center City after 9:30 AM. The Day Pass provides one trip on Regional Rail (other than R7 Trenton line), one way.
This screams for a spur-of-the-moment SEPTA Regional Rail excursion.
I'll try to take a vacation day this week (not Monday) to take advantage of this. Any interested Subtalkers, chime in.
SEPTA Bouquet Pass
HOT DIGGITY! Chance of a lifetime! Go for it! Ride from 9:30am (or sometime before that for an inbound trip) until the cows come home! I would ride some mainline expresses if they exist. I would ride all over the place. Through you and your photos, I will live this experience. Wow, just think of how many Regional Rail conductors you'll see that could yell at you for taking photos! You could set a new-one day record for threats!
We're all rooting for you Bob, don't let us down.
---Sir Ronald (not) of (Philadelphia) McDonald
Why not just have a SEPTA Early Spring trip?
Still, it's not like I haven't traveled over all of SEPTA's RR system several times over :-)
Information on the late-March celebration of the 50th anniversary of the opening of the Yonge Street subway can be found on the City of Toronto's website.
www.city.toronto.on.ca/ttc/50th/ttc_50th.htm
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
As far as I could guess, it was because you can transfer from Red to Green at Fort Totten, so they show the Red and Green dots... that means they just left out the Green dot and Gallery Pl-Chinatown, and the Red dot at Metro Center.
That, or they just erroneously added a Red dot at Fort Totten, and miscolored a Green dot for Galley Pl-Chinatown.
Part of it could be because the Green and Yellow were BOTH supposed to go to Greenbelt, and I think when this stop opened, that was still a part of the plan. So if you could get a Green transfer from Red, you could do Yellow there also, and vice versa... so they showed Green in one place, and Yellow in the other... once you saw an interior map, you'd figure it out quickly. The main one to make sure didn't have its colors mixed up was the Red/Blue/Orange transfer at Metro Center, and they got it right.
Still... unless WMATA plans on mixing destinations (sending Green, Yellow, Blue, and Orange to each other's end terminals and short turn spots (i.e. Green to Fran-Spring or Huntington, Orange to Addison Road, Blue to Greenbelt or New Carrollton), they need to fix that.
So was the Green Line... and whoever covered the Green one at Gallery Place shouldn't have covered it at all.
This look like an error. The Red dot next to Fort Totten on the strip map should be Yellow. Did you notice if all of the signs along the platform were the same?
John
Ans what are they doing at 163 St in the back of the station.
I'm interested to know of any publications or web sites dealing with Irish immigrants or Irish Americans working in the subways in the earlier part of the 20th century. If you know of any, I'd really appreciate it if you could let me know.
Thanks!
Stephen
Chuck
It's unfortunate that there WAS an accident yesterday though.
John
An expaination: The Philadelphia Flower Show is one of the biggest, events held at the Convention Center every year, and gives SEPTA and PATCO very heavy ridership on weekends and off-peak on weekdays [with a lot of Martha Stewart clones and regular green thumbs checking out the multitudes of flower garden arrangements.]. This is HUGE business for them and the money fills up their coffers during the week. By delaying the opening, NJT has cheated the RiverLINE of some of that ridership. Of course, the decision was made in NORTH Jersey, and Mr. Warrington should have given some thought [or should have read the Courier-Post top find out what's going on down south], that a delay was going to cost this line a lot of much-needed ridership.
Now when the line finally opens, it will be the last day of the Flower Show, and all of that potential ridership would have been missed. Mr. Warrington should sue the pants off of Bechtel and Bombardier for their incrdible foul-ups during the all too-long testing period [from mid-December to mid-March, that's 3 months, instead of a testing period of about 6 weeks.], and costing this line much-needed business at such a golden time.
What do you think of this?
Maybe this was a smart move by Warrington, expecting glitches in first-week Doggle service and starting operations in a slow week rather than a busy week. Recall that the previous scheduled start was the Sunday of Presidents Day weekend, when the second day of service would have been a holiday for state employees and many others.
Just a thought.
Bob
You better hope this system won't be an outlier that's a failure. If it is O'Toole and Cox will cite the riverline as a textbook example against light-rail and nationally there won't be many being built by that time.
The people at the Post must have read my post and have begun to address their lack of coverage of me.
In today's Post, there is a review of Randy Kennedy's "Subwayland". Without mentioning me by name, they did refer to someone who has a full size motorman's cab and who also made a replica of the TIMES SQUARE mosaic with 2500+ pieces of colored oaktag.
http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/books/19988.htm
Now I've got to work on getting some press from Newsday.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/07/travel/sophisticated/07ST-HONG.html
Trivia question: Who was the subway's first 12-9 to be killed by a speeding train?
--Mark
Write ERA at PO Box 3323, NY NY 10163-3323. New York Division of ERA: PO Box 3001, NY NY 10008-3001. I'm not sure if either has a website. Incidentally, membership in the New York Division is open to anyone; you do not have to live in the New York area, though you must join ERA concurrently.
BTW, the national web site has a sample "Headlights" in PDF format.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The ERA website address is: www.eletricrailroaders.org. The NY Divison also has a webpage on that site, with more information soon to be added. The monthly slide presentations have shown transit systems from around the world, as the interests of the Divison members are not limited to the NYC subway, or even other regional transit.
The Division, as well as the National ERA, is always looking for new members to join other like-minded enthusiasts.
The Electric Railroaders' Association (ERA) is an organization with an international focus. It publishes a magazine called HEADLIGHTS that covers systems all over the world and sponsors trips to various cities, some of them foreign. Dues are $20 a year. HEADLIGHTS is scheduled to come out twice a year and is glossy, with color.
The New York Division - Electric Railroaders' Association (NYD) is the New York area's arm of the ERA. It was once one of several Divisions nationwide, but it's now the only one left. NYD has 12 meetings a year, at St. John's University on Murray Street in lower Manhattan (usually on the third Friday of the month -- next one's March 19). It publishes a newsletter called THE BULLETIN (offset on copy paper), which comes out monthly and is geared primarily toward the New York railfan, though it has some national and international news. NYD also sponsors trips to places that can be reached and returned from inside of a 15-hour period (no farther than, say, Washington DC, starting at 8 AM and returning by 11 PM). Dues are $35 a year.
One does not have to join ERA to join NYD. Someone who joins NYD but not ERA is called a "subscriber" and can do everything a full NYD member (someone who joins both clubs) can do but participate in ERA or NYD elections. Someone who joins only ERA will receive HEADLIGHTS and ERA trip notices, plus can vote in ERA elections.
I've sent "R142A" an NYD application and referred "R142A" to the ERA website for an ERA application.
David Ross
Production Manager - THE BULLETIN
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
Kick in another $20.00 if you want Headlights.
Phil Hom
ERA3620
David Ross
Production Manager - THE BULLETIN
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
Regards,
Jimmy
Regards,
Jimmy
This link is for an image looking down the Jerome/Concourse Yard Ramp described in the previous post. Orientation is North by Northeast. The large smokestack left of center is where the Concourse Line Yard Powerhose and Portal are. That is a street overpass running across the middle of the image. The Concourse Yard Shop building is at the bottom of the ramp to the left. The Jerome Ave El structure eminates from the smokestack running across the image to the right. The Jerome Line Yards are to the left of the large stack where that light rectangular structure is next to a smaller smokestack. See the next image of the Jerome Yard & shop.
http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/nyc_transit_modelers_group/vwp?.dir=/MellowOne&.dnm=Jerome+Line+Yard+%26+Shop.jpg&.src=gr&.view=t&.hires=t
This next image is taken from the ramp looking east to the Jerome Line structure. All these images were taken in June of 1961 by yours truly.
http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/nyc_transit_modelers_group/vwp?.dir=/MellowOne&.dnm=Ramp2.jpg&.src=gr&.view=t&.hires=t
The ramp gives the 4 line access to additional train storage, the car wash, a way to CIY and/or 207 Yard for heavy work and nothing else.
Jerome Yard, is located north of Concourse yard on Jerome Avenue. It is almost entirely located under Tracey Towers. Jerome is strictly an IRT yard.
Concourse Yard and Jerome Yard both have their own Car repair shops but Concourse Yard has a car wash facility used by both fleets.
There you have it.
LIRR construction projects can take a very long time. Case in point - the Herricks Road overpass near Mineola, which took several years.
They demolished the west end of the platform about 24 months ago -- the same time they demolished the north (west) end at St. Albans. Then no work for about 12 months until they put in the settings for the two car extension to the west. I went by there today in daylight for the first time in a while and it looks no different than it did 6 months ago.
Something went wrong here.
CG
FANTASY MAPAs of Sun Feb 7,2003
I have worked on this for 2 hrs and its done! I have done many thing to improve.
1-NEW SECOND AV Subway-(T) train
2-New water and park colors-nicer.
3-Cleaned up legend area-dont mind the red box.
4-(L) to canarsie pier
5-Fixed some route letters around 145th St.
6-CULVER EXPRESS-(B)train
-Chris
CLICK BELOW TO ENLARGE MAP
-Chris
Also find a use for the abandoned LIRR Rockaway branch, and match it to the Super Express branch of the Queens Blvd Line.
Fianlly, try an extension of the E to Rosedale via St. Albans and Springfield Gardena.
Try these suggestions on your next fantasy map.
1. Making the N local in Manhattan is defintely not an improvement. The N is express once again. That's where it belongs. Why must the N go back to being local?
2. What is the point in running the W to Prospect Park and via the Manhattan Bridge? Total waste of the Broadway express tracks which could be better served by running the N there (see #1). Turning the W at Prospect will interfere with the existing Q service.
3. The P and C are not useful services. Lefferts Blvd to Coney Island via the Franklin Shuttle? 8th Ave/Fulton Street to CI via the shuttle? Where is the need for these kinds of services? Not to mention that they will interfere with the shuttle trains turning at Prospect and the facts that the Franklin Shuttle is single-tracked near Franklin Ave and that there are very short platforms on the shuttle line that can't handle more than a two-car R68 train.
4. 7th Ave service will be completely messed up. At 96th St the 2 has to switch over to the local tracks. Then at Chambers St, the 1 and 2 trains have to switch over to the express tracks and the 3 has to switch to the local tracks in order to get to South Ferry. Why do that?
5. The B, C, D, F, N, P and Q trains are all going to terminate at CI? Please tell me you're not calling for the C, P and Q trains to all terminate on the Brighton platform and the B and F terminating on the Culver platform.
6. The N to East 241st St? The W to East 180th St? Along with the 2 and 5 trains? How much will it cost to retrofit all 20 stations from East 241st to Jackson Ave, all above ground, with moving platforms that will slide back to let the wider N and W trains enter those 20 stations? What happens when those platforms malfunction in the dead of winter or the middle of summer? Or would there be a subway right under the White Plains Road el for the N and W trains?
7. The D is going to go over the Manhattan Bridge then connect to the F on the Brooklyn side of the Bridge only to rejoin the the 4th Avenue line below Smith & 9th? How would that better than the existing D service? First you'd have to build a new portal past Smith & 9th that would have to deal with a LONG grade down to get the D to join the M, N and R.
8. The Pelham Line will be overserved with 6, 6-diamond and 8 trains, plus where will the 8 turn back and be serviced?
9. The H train on the Flushing Line between Woodside and 74th St presents the same problem with N/W/2/5 service on the WPR line (see #6)? The H terminating at Woodhaven Blvd will also be a problem for J and Z trains, because you will have an all-stop H sharing tracks with skip-stop J/Z service.
10. If the 42nd Street Shuttle is extended west, it will cross the 1/2/3 line at grade, causing even more problems with that line's service than your proposed 7th Ave service plan already creates (see #4)
11. Terminating the Q at Roosevelt Island will defintely foul up F service. Plus, it calls for building spur tracks out of the 60th Street Tunnel, which is already busy with N, R and W trains.
12. Yet another problem with the H - you're going to have it run past Continental Ave. When an H gets stuck behind a terminating G, R or V train, watch the complaints start.
13. You want to run E, R and SIRT trains on the two-track SIRT line and run the E express there? And extend it down to Hylan Blvd? Given how close the SIRT line is to the SI shore, how will the line get down to Hylan? Plus running the R local in SI, along with the local runs in Brooklyn, Manhattan and Queens, how many stops are R line crews going to be looking at here?
It's a great fantasy map that you made, but nearly all of those lines and extensions that you proposed will remain just that, fantasies. There's not a chance on this Earth that they will see the light of day. For one thing, how are your Bronx-Queens trains going to get between the Bronx and Queens, without spending huge bucks? Even if you cut the 8 to LaGuardia and didn't run it to the Bronx, it would still foul up the existing 7 service.
Exactly.
3. The P and C are not useful services. Lefferts Blvd to Coney Island via the Franklin Shuttle? 8th Ave/Fulton Street to CI via the shuttle? Where is the need for these kinds of services? Not to mention that they will interfere with the shuttle trains turning at Prospect and the facts that the Franklin Shuttle is single-tracked near Franklin Ave and that there are very short platforms on the shuttle line that can't handle more than a two-car R68 train.
The P would be helpful for people going to the beach during the summer, and would be helpful to alot of other people that would otherwise have to make a lot of transfers from IND and IRT stations East of Franklin ave. One of the oversites with thoat map is that if those services were to exist then there would be NO NEED for the Shuttle. The single track would probally be eliminated and platforms extended.
8. The Pelham Line will be overserved with 6, 6-diamond and 8 trains, plus where will the 8 turn back and be serviced?
They would turn back on thee 8 line's middle track and turn at Junction Blvd. 8-)
10. If the 42nd Street Shuttle is extended west, it will cross the 1/2/3 line at grade, causing even more problems with that line's service than your proposed 7th Ave service plan already creates (see #4)
Shuttle Grade Reconstruction.
12. Yet another problem with the H - you're going to have it run past Continental Ave. When an H gets stuck behind a terminating G, R or V train, watch the complaints start.
Terminate at 71st and quickly head onto spur track.
13. You want to run E, R and SIRT trains on the two-track SIRT line and run the E express there? And extend it down to Hylan Blvd? Given how close the SIRT line is to the SI shore, how will the line get down to Hylan? Plus running the R local in SI, along with the local runs in Brooklyn, Manhattan and Queens, how many stops are R line crews going to be looking at here?
That would be one tedius run for the R crews. But since the E train is running from Manhattan it would be more ideal that that be the the express service. However with both the E and R going to Staten Island, I would put fare control at every station and elminate the orginal (S). The (S) should then only be run between St George and the Ballpark during ballgames. The line can be double decked for express service. Maybe add just a 3 track canterlieverd like the Airtrain, between the 2 tracks for peak direction express service as a cheaper alternative.
Are you planning a tranfer between SAS and Roosevelt Island Tram???
>"W runs express in Brooklyn and terminates at Prospect Park"
There are only between Prospect Park and Brighton Beach Express tracks,
so you can remove this info.
With a tunnel between SI & Manhattan the SI Ferry is not neccessary.
That said, these are the features I particularly like:
Extending the current Flushing Line to LaGuardia Airport, and from there into the Bronx. This is a genuinely practical proposal for providing subway service to LGA.
Extending the 42nd St shuttle to Penn Station. This would deliver great value to NYC transit, although it's probably not constructible.
Subway service from Lower Manhattan to S.I., although I think it's more practical to extend the #1/9 (which is already tunneled to near the water's edge) rather than the E/V.
Extending the L to Canarsie Pier, which would have the potential to significantly revitalize that area.
In a fantasy map you can do anything, but some of the ideas seem gratuitous—transit for transit's sake. These ideas seem to me to have the least value:
Extending the N to the Bronx. It's outrageously impractical, because the line you're proposing to use is IRT, and it doesn't solve any obvious transit problem.
The proposed H train between Woodhaven Blvd and Brook Av. Who would ride this service?
The R train extension to S.I. The R is a very slow route to Manhattan, so I doubt it would get very many riders.
The #6 extension to South Ferry. A lot of work for not a lot of benefit. A #6 extension to NJ would be more valuable.
A few ideas left out that I think would add value:
Extend the T westward across 125 St, giving Manhattan another east-west line (something it has too little of);
Extend the #7 to the Jacob Javits Center
Extend the A to 215 St. There's a gorgeous neighborhood up there at the top of Manhattan, and it's a long walk down to 207.
Kickass map. Im happy you finally enlarged it.
I'd love to offer my more realistic dream map.
-Chris
>>Here's a link to a base map that you can use for yours. (it is different from current maps[1967 design] but it has little lines for guidance.)
>>I have also created this Map Helper w/ the MTA's actual colors (from the PDF map). I hope it helps.
-Chris
Click R-46 to check it out...
-Chris
Good creative useful ideas and great work.. Kudos to you both!
Pity the poor tourist from out of town that tries to find Airtrain on our map. Airtrain should be very bold on the map, for the benefit of New Yorkers and visitors alike.
Also, the JFK Airtrain reference on the " MTA Railroads " side of the paper subway map is nearly useless.
-------
WHILE WE'RE AT IT -- there should be some sort of reference as to how to get to Newark Airport on the map. Why isn't a reference there? To try to inconvenience travelers to and from Newark? Because " it's not my job " as the airport is not in NY?
Newark Airport is not even shown on the MTA Railroads map even though that part of the airport is clearly shown. That's bulls*** and it is unprofessional as hell.
Show Newark Airport on the map, and include a box with dedicated info for airport travelers. Know that the maps are busy now, but there is room enough for this!
I don't think so. The MTA does not provide service to Newark in any way shape or form. There is no reason for them to include it.
If you look at the NJ Transit Map they don't show Newark Airport either. They just show the railroad station.
http://www.njtransit.com/images/NJTrrmap_Nov03.jpg
The subway map is a subway map. It should show the subway lines clearly and allude to connecting services, but no more.
If AirTrain is shown as prominently as the subway, then so should the commuter rail lines. And connecting bus service. And nearby roads and highways. Only one problem: the result is an incomprehensible blob, not a subway map.
The subway system is confusing enough as it is. Let's not make the map more confusing than it needs to be.
wayne
The other was earlier in the day on the A train. A jumper at 34th St. he didn't survive either.
wayne
i got 3 wrong..gives me a raw score of 96. good luck to you all! see you all on the next railfan trip
AFAIK there is no such thing. For school you're on your own. You can plead with the crew office, they may help you out, but they're not required, nor do they have any reason, to help you.
The word is that 90 and better on the test provides a good chance that TA will call you for a position.
Don't want to get everyone's hopes up; it is after all only a rumor, but keep the faith. I'd like to see you make it; after all, I could use the 2 hour bonus breaking you in as a student! LOL
Vince
Vince
I'm happy with it, should I be happy with a 96?
I messed up my scoring:
2 wrong 68/70, a 97!
Woo Hoo!
Don't get your hopes up about the physical.
When I was called, I had a bad knee. I had injured my knee playing baseball the same day as the letter came telling me to show up at 1250 B'way (d'oh!) the following Friday. Anyway with a torn knee and a really bad limp, I still managed to get the job, even though it required climbing up and down from a train. Another in my class had a bad knee from his weight (IIRC). He was allowed to take the position as well.
If you have any condition, and it is temporary, drill that through the doctor's brain. That's what I had to do. "I hurt it playing baseball, it will heal." They'll give you a hard time, and may require a revisit (GET THAT DONE ASAP), but force it upon them. Of course, you can plead all you want, they are the final word.
As the saying goes, be careful what you wish for, you may get it. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
We all have had to deal with it. It gets better with time, and if you really want the job, you'll stick with it.
I have seen many a new C/R in the past few months complain about how they got crappy jobs. One new C/R I saw at Corona Yard for exmaple complained how he was constantly getting 5 trips on the 7. Felt he should have been getting better jobs. As a new guy he deserved far better; because the TA had to impress him to keep him, as far as he was concerned. Then another at Euclid who was upset at the fact she wasn't able to get weekends off right out of school car.
To be honest I think its got something to do with age. I only see the younger employees complaining. The older know that they have to put up with it: its how the job works. The younger guys want to make their money and go out and blow it on the weekend. They want to be able to go out Friday and Saturday night with their friends.
What I mean by how you get treated is that you will get the crappiest jobs out there (although not all the time, I often got 1 trip on the E) that need to be filled. As new employees you're at at the bottom of the pile and really get beat up. Some of you will, I guarantee, take it personal and whine about it. The way things work are by seniority in all things: when filling an AM job, #1 extra in theory gets the best, then it trickles down. Most of the time it works that way; unless you piss someone off, or those responsible are pricks. It has nothing to do with "I'm new, they should show me the best they have" or "I'm new, they're trying to screw me."
Just keep that in mind when you think about how you're treated.
This is nothing that Selkirk and others haven't said before, but I'm just restating it since so many of you took the test you need to be reminded its not going to be fun. In the words of Red Foreman "Funtime is over".
There are some things you'll have to learn on your own. Not that I can't tell you, its just too exhausting. Whoever wants to elaborate on this, feel free.
You have no right to SRARW anything
I'm qualified on the 142 and no one ever told me they had drum switches. Thus, a protested answer.
Didn't Peter say common sense? :) Its the switch that looks like a drum.
Yeah, I do know what you're getting at however. When I think of drumswitch I think of the switch with the butterfly like thingy on the R32s. R38s have drumswitches that look like the MDC switch. Maybe that's why those new switches are called drumswitches?
wayne
wayne
5 and 34
it was question 66, pm session.
hopefully i get called soon. i am ready to quit my job, well i'd like to do more traveling first.
If you are called for B/O first and turn it down, you stay on the list for C/R's. If they never get to your number for C/R, guess what. Similarly, once you accept the B/O title, you are removed from the civil service list and will not be called for C/R.
In the service you had to be in flight training by the time you were 27 years old although they gve you some months for prior military service. Does the MTA have some rule like that ?
Vince
This has over the years been a place where the express trains tend to slow down. Don't know why.
In general, trains slow down there because of a series of timers approaching the station.
ALSO If you were one of the people who did the 'Whole system on one fare' trip, can you tell me the itinerary? Thanks.
-Chris
Search the archives here at SubTalk and you will find everything you ever wanted to know about this TV program. Hint: set the search dates to between May and December of 2003.
Thanks to Broadway Junction to put them into the internet.
Drawing was easier making the two letter lines to one letter line and
giving lines without a letter a letter.
Since I am owner of TransitGallery.com, as most you people already know and I have been offering good service and now I have decided to give something special back to the community, what is my offer?
Since you all know NJT is edgar for the new River Line which starts in 6 days from now, I am offering these railfanning who want a free Premium Account including video feature which is a beta testing, and if you can generate at least 250 photos of River Line, you can earn this as a free gift. At last, I will also host any River Line videos if you plan to make movies, bring them ON!
I hope railfanning will enjoy the special day, March 14th!
Good Luck to you all and have a great day!
BTW, could you support the People Against Misleading Names movement and not refer to the SJLR (or the CBMGTT) as the "River Line". New Jersey already has a River Line.
I suppose that implies that when speaking the name, one should SHOUT the word LINE.
Here's a link to the follow-up article in Monday's paper.
Chuck Greene
The NJT Atlantic City Line initial fare was a promotional fare, half of what the "normal" fare would have been. Its only increase so far was a year or 2 (or 3) ago when virtually all NJT fares were increased by 10%. The initial promotional fare, one way, between Philly and AC was $6; it's now $6.60.
Chuck Greene
I am not going further detail if I am against such as misleading names or anything, my point here is to expand knowledge about public transportation and educate community why we have one and such.
Bottom line, I am offering this good resources out there that railfanning can take advtange of!
Thanks!
Dan
Two weeks ago, our mutual friend tore the seat of his pants while putting together a coal train at Benning Yard to go down the Pope's Secondary to one of the two PEPCO coal plants. He frantically called his wife who bought a replacement pair of pants to the Museum. She got there as her husband was bringing the coal train pass Jericho Road. They waited at the south leg of the wye (where coal trains leave Amtrak's NEC and go down the former Conrail trackage). As his train passed, my friend hooped up the replacement pants to the conductor. I wonder if that has ever been done before.
Michael
Washington, DC
All the platforms remained wood until the end. The el never got the upgrades (concrete platforms, metal windscreens) that were done on the newer IRT lines.
The NYCTA and then the MTA certainly did a minimal amount of work on that line in its waning years.
From what I understand, the 2nd Ave El north of 57th St ridership was very low. As a matter of fact, it was very common for the 2nd Ave Harlem routes to operate 2 car trains.
When they discontinued the 3rd Ave El, ridership was very adequate. The sole purposes of the demise of the 3rd Ave El was politics, econmics and real estate.
Peace,
ANDEE
Mark
I was thinking the same thing, but I believe it makes it easier on everyone. City Ticket can only be bought on Sat and Sun, and can only be used on Sat and Sunday. Its probally to avoid ticket scamming. People might think they are slick by buying city tickets to use during peak hours or saying "oh I didn't know this a peak train". Also Most ridership is during weekdays, so they may actually lose money buy having city ticket available during the week.
That's because the taxi-goers don't know any better. Even a $40 flat rate to Manhattan on a taxi costs more than the $7.50 for AirTrain+LIRR to Manhattan (add $2 for a subway ride from Penn Station).
Welome to todays episide of....The Sweeping Generalization.
Peace,
ANDEE
Depends how many of you are travelling together, of course. Four of you in a taxi and you're almost even.
The Crowding would just be displaced. The trains going to Port Washington would become more crowded, as well as trains going to Jamaica/Queens Village/Rosedale. If they were at all to Have City Ticket on weekdays it should be limited to Off Peak Only, if not Late Night.
If the MTA deems the program successful, hopefully, they'll think about increasing service in Eastern Queens, build some parking spots, and increase coordination with the bus system. With these improvements and the opening of ESA in 2010, Eastern Queens will have faster access to Manhattan.
Definately the commuter cars are unsuitable for standees. People are comfortable sitting and sipping their bears while I stand near the car end moving out of the conductor's way clutching to my heavy laptop. This is worst than the E train. More PW trains and local stops on the mainline are needed.
Plus with all the diversions in Queens on weekends, LIRR becomes critical link as an already rough commute becomes unbearable.
Does that seem alittle freaky or is it just me. (Points to 666).
Despite occasional problems, I think the New Haven Line is pretty reliable. Don't forget, during winter storms the LIRR has had many third-rail problems.
Traction motors on trains were 500-700 volts DC. And all lower voltages did was to let the motor turn more slowly. Lower voltages on an AC motor causes overheating.
So if you need DC motors, wouldn't it be easier to use DC current. Using a DC third rail system allowed simpler, less expensive electronic packages on the trains. And do remember that LIRR and BRT operated interchangably during the early part of this century, and it was a while before all of the Brooklyn railroads were consolidated into what you see today.
PRR and NYNH&H were long distance railroads, and the longer distances needed better long distance power transmission, which in those days meant AC power. They figured that each train could carry its own damn sub-station to conver the power to DC, As opposed to putting them every mile or two as suggested by DC service.
NYCR used third rail, but it was only in it's commuter districts, and not intended to get trains to Chicago or points elsewhere.
In CT, Third Rail was a sick bird! (Ill eagle... get it... a joke)
: ) Elias
Excuse me, AC to DC conversion didn’t become feasible until the mid 1950s, well after the decision was made to go with an AC overhead catenary power distribution system. Sure there were experiments with motor generator locomotives. But rectifiers on locomotives and Electric Multiple Units (EMU) did not see wide spread use until the mid 1950s. All of the locomotive and EMUs under the catenary used multiple tap transformers and AC series commutator traction motors before the mercury rectifiers became durable enough for railroad use.
John
But the GG1s had huge (toxic oil filled) transformers in them.
What did MU coaches use? Smaller, but the same Idea?
American Flyer trains were AC, and we could control their speed just fine, but yes they were multi-tap transformers, weren't they?
I remember when you could see the taps, later ones were wire wound and the taps were right on the coils themselves.
But of course, We have also seen motor generator sets. Were there any big locomotives that used thoes. Maybe the BiPolars on the MIL?
Elias
I think the GN used MG set locomotives.
The Westinghouse ignitron experimentals for the PRR were a combination of tap changer and phase angle control, whereas the Silverliner I / Pioneer III / MP-85 cars were basically a DC MU with a substation. The later GE equipped cars used phase angle control, as dis the E-60 (which is actually continuously throttleable but for some stupid reason GE gave it an 8 notch controller)
This is only true for induction motors, such as are commonly
encountered on household appliances. Reducing the voltage
while the motor is under full mechanical load causes it to run
more slowly, increasing the "slip" between the rotation of
the magnetic field in the motor and the actual rotation of the
rotor. Increased slip means increased current, which causes
the counter-intuitive result that reducing the voltage increases
the current.
Although synchronous and induction AC motors enjoyed some
success overseas, in the United States, systems using AC
overhead did so with series-field commutator motors which
were nearly identical to DC traction motors. These speed of
these motors is easily controlled by varying the applied
voltage, with no ill effect.
Yes 2.5k' blocks are pushing the boundry for 80mph running you I'll give it to you for the Woodhaven MO segment if the blocks are in fact 2.5k', but it has been posted here many times before that 3rd Rail runs into problems above 80. Not necessarily catestrophic problems, but nobody chronic shoe shedding.
Adam
Not so... High Speed denotes long distance, and long distances suggest AC systems for ease of power transmission. With LIRR stops 2-3 miles apart, higher speed do not make much sense. Yes, of course there are some through trains that would benefit from higher speeds, but even that is not practicle... for they would soon run into the back of their leader. So a rail lion runs best when all all of the beasts run at the same speed.
Elias
What about express trains? They may go quite a few miles without stopping.
Certainly on the express tracks in the Bronx on MNRR all trains are going from Woodlawn to 125th without stopping. If trains could go 90 there instead of 60, that would save 2 minutes for tens of thousands of people twice a day. MNRR has spent hundreds of millions of dollars on other things to save its passengers 2 minutes (e.g., high platforms, the north entrances to GCT, the signaling improvements they've already done, to name 3).
Now on the Hudson Line, catenary (there's that pesky and stupid and antiquated law again...) outside of the city limits would prove to be more beneficial, both to Metro North and Amtrak since it would allow more electric equipment to operate. Only caveat is that Amtrak or CSX would have to be the party to electrify the line up to Albany.
How about the 40m27c non-stop section from East Croydon to Brighton on a 100mph Brighton Express via the Quarry Lines?
-Robert King
-Robert King
This was Propulsion 103...AC traction motors. CI Peter
Someone being stupid and going around the gates doesn't have much of a prayer anyway. It makes little difference whether the train is running 80 or 90 from that perspective. O the other hand, a 90 mph train gets you home a little faster, clears the track block a little faster, etc. So no real reason not to do it.
Don't believe me? http://www.trainweb.org/tgvpages/estartrip3.html
The current limit is 100mph (161kmph). Of course they still run faster on the French side, being limited there to 186mph (300kmph). Anywhere in England where the speed drops below 100 therefore is due to signalling, slow curve and junctions, and getting stuck behind stopping trains with a design speed of 75-90mph. Note that when CTRL is complete the domestic trains (the 375/6s) will top out at 100mph whether running off the 3rd Rail or the OHLE. There should be some interesting capacity issues as a result.
That was the huge problem with the service, they just piddled along. I know, I rode it, it sucked.
I agree with you. Eurostar sucks. However, they could save a lot more time by a much cheaper method: sack the security staff, abolish the lengthy check-in, put passport control on at Ashford and take them off at Fréthun (if they have to be there at all - I'm with Ernest Bevin on this one*), shorten the train lengths, allow people to use any outward train on the date of their ticket and return within a month, and make seat reservations optional. Basically they should realise that they're running a railway, not an airline.
That's the reason the new hi-speed RoW was needed so urgently.
It'll be nice for it to reach St Pancras, but 30 of the 50 minutes it'll save me will be not having to allow time to get across London.
* the one time Foreign Secretary, Ernest Bevin, once said, "I want to be able to go down to Victoria Station, get a ticket, and go where the hell I like without a passport or anything else".
However, signalling issues prevent this.
Typically, third rail runs out of steam (heh:) at high speeds, and the contact gets lousey, but the LIRR and MN have demonstrated that it can be used quite reliably to 80. The real issue is that third rail can't reasonably deliver the power needed to go really fast.
Oh yes, why was the LIRR electrified with third rail? It was all there was at the time.
Remember, too, the LIRR interoperated with the BRT. In fact, the MP-41s were really more like subway cars than 'real' railroad cars.
By the time the 11kv system proved practical, the LIRR was already pretty extensively electrified on third rail. remember, the New haven and PRR had loads of problems with 11kv at first. I believe the New Haven was at one point thinking of throwing in the towel. And the PRR didn't have a decent motor until they copied the EP-3.
Why wasn't the LIRR converted? Besides being extensively powered on third rail, it was a 'short distance' system, and the MP-54s were pretty much the same (lousy by today's standards) on both systems - AFAIK, they both origionally topped out at around 60mph, and took their time getting there.
Anyway, I just checked a diagram of the area and the blocks between MO and WOODHAVEN are marked at 1 mile intervals, not half mile intervals like they are in the park ave tunnel.
|----------4000'---------|--1000'--|----------4000'-----------|
I am going up to NYC next week and I will ride that segment of track with Pigs and personally count the impedence bond breaks and their interval to settle the issue once and for all.
Thanks for the warning! ;=D
BTW, you keep writing Woodhaven, it's Woodlawn.
In what sense is MNRR trackage in the Bronx 80 mph trackage?
I've ridden there dozens of times and never had a train go more than a few miles over 60.
You've observed speeds of close to 80 between Tremont and Botanical Garden? How did you estimate the speed?
(V final)^2 = (V initial)^2 - 2*a*d
If you want V final to be 0, stopping distance =
((V initial)^2)/(2a)
That is, stopping distance for a given deceleration goes as the square of the speed. This rule works for all speeds and confirms your calculation that going from 80 to 90 increases stopping distance by about 25% (since (9/8)^2 = 81/64 = 1.266).
The M-1s automagically regulate the deceleration - it's only 3.0mph/s below 50mph, above there, it gets lower and lower until 100mph, where it's 1.5, IIRC. This was from GE's book AS DELIVERED, it might have changed.
Of course I am! It makes the math much simpler. The real numbers aren't all that important as the point of all this was to disprove someone's claim that increasing the speed from 80 to 90 mph has only a minor impact on stopping distance.
So, the legislature voted to bar 3rd rail power.
(At the time, the Connecticut House of Representatives was apportioned to favor rural areas - each of the 169 towns got one representative each. Towns founded before 1740, and towns with more than 50,000 people, got one more representative (but never more than two per town). Hence, the rural areas controlled the legislature.)
I think it goes back to the late 1800's, when the 3rd rail was the center rail, rather than the offset configuration it is now. Think old Lionel train set. It was very dangerous and [probably] hence the restriction. I've heard stories of livestock wandering onto the tracks and being electrocuted in those days, but haven't come across any human fatalities. The MN personel I've spoken with simply state that 'third rail is illegal in CT' period.
Here's an old article on 3rd rail in CT
Your pal,
Fred
Why is it illegal in Connecticut?
It isn't. In 1902, the Legislature passed a law requiring that
all third rail be suitably protected against accidental contact
by humans and livestock. At the time, the New Haven RR had a few
isolated sections of third rail operation, such as the Nantaskett
Beach branch. Their system used an exposed rail mounted right
in the center of the track. It wasn't possible to cover it,
and the management of the NHRR had changed. The new management
was not friendly towards DC electrification and eventually went
with the Westinghouse system of high-voltage AC catenary. They
simply removed the third rail and either reverted to steam
operation or converted to trolley.
At the same time, plans were underway for the new Grand Central
and the terminal zone electrification. This was under control
of the New York Central, and they chose a third rail approach
with the Wilgus-Sprague under-running third rail. I have no idea
if there were ever talks between the NYC and the NHRR, which of
course had track rights into GCT, about the incompatibility which
was being introduced.
I suppose the NHRR could have extended under-running third rail into
CT, since it was protected, but they really had no interest in
doing that, as the AC electrification was much more efficient.
Fortunately, for the sake of their son and daughter, her husband recognizes the necessity of wearing a helmet whenever he rides.
Think of your kids, Sarge.
CG
Not to mention, these wires are still in the midst of being replaced, IIRC?
And the wires on the former PRR are not fine either. Amtrak is really pushing things to the limit, being forced to do so by those people in Washington that should be their benefactors. BTW the 135-mph segments are the "test" constant-tension segments IIRC and should be upgraded to 150 mph.
Nope, the only test CT segment is between the former MILLHAM and the former NASSAU on 3 track and there are many many more segments of 135 running than that. When the metroliners entered service they went 150 in operation and were only slowed down due to the track, not the wires.
BTW, I get this from official NY Central documents, reports and memos as maintained in the William Wilgus papers. I'm a diehard NY Central fan and I spent a lotta time going through these papers. As mentioned, Wilgus was the NYC&HR Chief Engineer who planned, designed and built the electric zone. He didn't do it all single-handedly, of course, but he made a lot of the decisions and had final authority over just about everything else right down to line relocations and the training crews would receive.
I always wondered how the two companies had planned to work things
out and that sheds some light on it.
Also, don't forget that in 1902 Mellen took over from Clark as
President of the NHRR and had some pretty different ideas.
Suddenly, DC electrification was off the table.
Also, not to take anything away from Wilgus and his amazing
engineering accomplishments in building the current GCT, but
remember that Frank Sprague played an important consulting role
in designing the NY terminal zone electrification.
Do you happen to know how the power was sent from the generating
stations down to GCT? I know there were M-Gs or rotary converters
down in the bowels of the station to make the 600. Was the
incoming feed 25cy 11kV? Where were the other substations?
The work the motors do uses energy, measured in watts. One watt equals one ampere of current (a great deal) at a one volt potential (a minimal amount). One watt is also, for example, 1/100 ampere at 100 volts, or 100 amperes at 1/100 volt.
Although in theory you could use any combination of voltage and current to get the same number of watts, basically the resistance of the conductor is directly proportional to the current. Thus, if you are putting 100 amperes through a wire, it will have more resistance (from heating) than if you put 1 ampere; the voltage is irrelevant.
So, for long distances you need high voltage and low current. For a third rail system, which has to use a lower voltage, you therefore need a number of substations than for a high voltage catenary system.
Using third rail for long distances is usually not a cost effective option, although it works well in densly populated areas.
with AC propulsion a much smaller transformer can be used and with the 12.5 Kv even some straight power can be bought from local utilities, now we are only talking remote controlled AC circuit breakers at maybe 1000 amp spaced every 10 miles or so.
Your basic point is correct, but I can't help but correct the physics a bit.
Resistance does not depend on current. Energy dissipated in a resistor does, and is proposrtional to (I^2)*R. So cutting down the current flow through a conductor by a factor of 2 reduces the power lost by a factor of 4.
As for your question about power delivery at GCT, I'll flip through my notebooks when I get a chance and see what I have.
---Sir Ronald of McDonald
Oscar would have a poker game going on.
avid
If I was a mayor or clerk of an incorporated municipality, I surely would.
All service was shut down for several hours, but by early afternoon trains outside the affected area were running .
Peace,
ANDEE
Any other weird effects that you folks can recall?
Peace,
ANDEE
Ben F. Schumin :-)
As a friend of mine once said, "It's 'Scottish' unless you're talking about liquor or tape!"
Ben F. Schumin :-)
P.S. I know of at least one town that actually has the official name "Frisco", on the Outer Banks of NC.
Funny thing is, there's the old Sat. Louis-San Fancisco Railway (now part of BNSF...) and how did they letter all their locomotives??? "FRISCO" !!!!
1. PATH to WTC and Exchange Place - WTC station was destroyed and no way to turn trains around at ExPl - a switch was added at ExPl some time ago so trains could terminate there, and recently the temporary WTC PATH station opened.
2. 7th AVE IRT couldn't run between Cortlandt and Rector because the tunnel was collapsed - this service was completely out - even after most service returned (subject to point #5 below) the service pattern was the 2 running on the usual route but local, the 3 express from 148 to 14th and reversing with the switches at 14th, and the 1 running normal above Chambers in Manhattan and the Bronx, then on the New Lots line in place of the 3 in Brooklyn, no service on the South Ferry Branch). The tunnel was rebuilt and currently the 2 and 3 are running normally, with the 1 running its normal route but bypassing Cortlandt (this happened around the 6 month anniversary of 9/11).
3. The Broadway BMT was not able to run between Canal and the Montague tunnel for a few weeks due to structural fears about the tunnel adjacent to WTC - it was not collapsed, but there were fears it could. After a few weeks, trains ran through by the WTC, but bypassing the Cortlandt St. station (which was reinforced with heavy vertical wooden supports to guard against collapse). On the same day that the IRT resumed its original route, the BMT Cortlandt St. station reopened (and the wooden supports were removed.) For the short time that the BMT was not running through the Montague tunnel, the J was extended to run the 4th Ave local (the R's usual haunts), while the rest of the BMT/IND southern div in Brooklyn was served by the M via Montague, and additional service from the Manhattan Bridge (south side tracks only, obviously, plus the F via Rutgers).
4. The E WTC station was closed. Terminating E trains still went there to reverse, but no revenue service. Last stop on the E was Chambers. The E WTC station reopened, IIRC, around the same time as the BMT Cortlandt station.
5. For a short time after 9/11 - few days to a few weeks - the other lines in downtown Manhattan ran normally but skipped the stops in the "frozen zone," where peds weren't allowed anyway - generally below Canal and shrinking over time. The stops affected as I recall were, the IND from Canal to the Cranberry St. tunnel, the Lex from Canal to Bowling Green, and the Nassau line (which ran service in Brooklyn in place of the BMT Broadway via Montague, running "express" through at least some of the Manhattan stops). This "frozen zone" was shrunk over time until after a few weeks the only stations not seeing service in Lower Manhattan were: PATH WTC (destroyed, now replaced with a temporary station), IRT Cortlandt (destroyed, tunnel rebuilt in 6 months along with a basic station shell to be used later), E WTC (ok and in use but not for revenue service for 6 months), BMT Cortlandt (reinforced with vertical supports with trains bypassing, resumed normal service after 6 months), plus the PATH Exchange Place station across the pond (no place for trains to reverse until a switch was added).
Currently the only station not in revenue service is the IRT Cortlandt, which is bypassed by the 1 and 9.
I think that about sums it up...
It actually reopened a few days after the 1st anniversary of 9/11.
Houston, actually. I know because I came into work on the 13th. My company is on the north side of (West) Houston, and the police lines were right outside. During lunch, I walked several blocks east along Houston, as far as Mulberry IIRC, and the police lines were at each intersection. You could walk on the south sidewalk of Houston Street, but couldn't go any further south unless you were an area resident.
The area between Houston and Canal was reopened the next day, the 14th.
World Trade Center on the E line reopened on Monday January 28, 2002 which at the time Cortlandt Street on the N, R, and W remained closed. Cortlandt Street on the BMT reopened as of Sunday September 15, 2002. As said before Canal Street was the terminal on the E line when C service resumed through Sunday January 27, 2002.
At the time, I lived on the upper west side, and was fixing up a house in Brooklyn. I took the train over the Manhattan bridge to get out of Brooklyn, and to come back the next day, or day after. I can't remember if that was because the Rutgers tunnel hadn't opened back up yet (the house was on the F line) Or if I just wanted to see the view from the bridge.
I do fondly remember no street cleaning for ages afterwords.
Oh, I did manage to get a parking ticket that day, before the trade centers were hit. I Sould have saved it. I got one on the blackout, too. Maybe as long as I stay without a car anymore, no more disasters will happen to us.
The 1 went to NewLots Ave in Brooklyn while the line to South Ferry was unavailable and ran local in Manhattan. The 2 was also local in Manhattan, but otherwise kept its usual terminals.
So speaks a man who knows a good beer when he tastes one. There aren't many finer ales than Burton's best.
Prost!
As for Watney's, I think they've long since disappeared into the history books.
Good luck everyone.
http://www.startribune.com/stories/373/4648115.html
There's a transit strike in Minnesota and tens of thousands are left without bus service. What get me is the fact that no one really cares and most of these "Conservatives" are more concerned about raising taxes than providing public transportation for the elderly and poor. The whole situation is insane as this strike may have future ramifications on future rail and bus transport as conservatives will try to defund these public services.
It makes you feel good that you're a New Yorker.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The bus strike was quiet on all fronts Friday -- until the Minnesota Taxpayers League lobbed a grenade into the battlefield.
"Transit just isn't that important to the smooth functioning of the Twin Cities transportation system," said league President David Strom. "That's the obvious conclusion to be drawn from the lack of chaos engendered by the bus-system strike."
In a community already debating the bus strike and the issue of health-care costs, the comment added a new political dimension to the strike by the Amalgamated Transit Union Local 1005 against Metro Transit, operated by the Metropolitan Council.
Strom, whose organization has been an aggressive voice against raising taxes and for less government spending, said he would prefer to spend bus and rail money on road improvements.
Drivers on strike ThursdayJudy GriesedieckStar Tribune"Even in areas highly transit dependent -- such as the central business districts of St. Paul and Minneapolis -- there just doesn't seem to be much difference in traffic when buses are running and when buses are not," he said. "The bus strike shows decisively that proponents of transit are simply not telling the truth when they say that transit ridership reduces congestion. It simply doesn't."
About 11 million trips are made each day in the metro area, 3 percent of them by bus. City and state officials have reported no obvious effects on traffic attributable to the strike. The Regional Traffic Management Center, which has freeway surveillance cameras, said traffic moved routinely on Thursday morning, the first day of the strike. Thursday night, freeway levels were light with the exception of Interstate Hwy. 35W south of downtown Minneapolis. It was slow going Friday because of the snow.
Walking farther due to strikeMarlin LevisonStar TribuneTransit advocates acknowledged the lack of traffic jams but drew different conclusions.
"This whole strike is about our ability to mobilize our work force in a time of crisis, not about the value and effectiveness of transit," said Teresa Wernecke, director of the Downtown Minneapolis Traffic Management Organization, which promotes transit use downtown. "This isn't a test on transit. It's a test on employers and the work force to be resourceful."
Rep. Alice Hausman, DFL-St. Paul, a champion of transit at the Legislature, said: "We don't see all the problems the strike is causing -- individual problems in individual lives. It's not like an explosion in downtown Minneapolis. They struggle in the privacy of their homes and offices, and it's very hard to see the collective impact. But that does not mean that the impact is not severe."
Strom asserted that mass transit is a bad deal for taxpayers. Hausman conceded that the lack of a large, visible wallop from the strike will make it harder to argue for transit funding at the Legislature. "It will add fodder to the ideological opposition," she said.
A rebuttal
Transit for Liveable Communities, a community advocacy group, also lashed back at Strom. "Transit provides access and independence for the young, elderly, mobility-impaired, and people who would rather not drive," said Barb Thoman, program director. "The Texas Transportation Institute, which is hardly a pro-transit outfit, estimates that transit's benefit to our region in congestion relief is $227 million a year in time and fuel savings."
In a rare moment, Strom's comments bound the union and the Met Council together in opposition to the Taxpayers League, which was founded by a small group of wealthy Republican conservatives.
Said Union President Ron Lloyd: "The Taxpayers League -- I'm not sure they're in touch with what's really going on around here. The business community is for transit."
Met Council Chairman Peter Bell said Strom's conclusions are simplisitic. "A third of our customer base is transit-dependent. In addition, people are always able to make short-term adjustments. The more relative question is the long-term impact that this would have, and I would argue that there certainly would be one."
As the strike moves into its third day today, no new contract talks were scheduled for the weekend, Bell, Lloyd and state mediator Alan Olson said. Wages and health insurance are key sticking points in the contract dispute.
Union Vice President Michelle Sommers said picketing went as planned Friday. Union members kept barrels burning all night to stay warm and managers sent out coffee and hot chocolate to several garages.
Lloyd called on Bell and Gov. Tim Pawlenty to "sit down and speak with us face to face and negotiate a settlement fair to our members that will end this strike." <<<<<<<<<<<<<
The issue is whether the lack of impact is temporary or not. There are only 330,000 trips per day on this system -- the media indicates that a sizeable number of these are by the poor, disabled, elderly and young.
One can certainly argue that society has an moral obligation to provide transportation options for these groups, but arguing that not providing transit to these groups has a substantial economic impact on the overall community is going to be tough to support with facts in this case.
That's the problem. There is no aggregate impact as 95% of the people drive so the small portion that takes public transportation is stuck without service. Folks. We have to hope that gas prices skyrockets this summer to over $2.00 dollars a gallon.
>>>>>The issue is whether the lack of impact is temporary or not. There are only 330,000 trips per day on this system -- the media indicates that a sizeable number of these are by the poor, disabled, elderly and young. <<<<
Bingo. Folks 330K of people is probably more than Path, HBLR, NY Waterway combined! WOW. I feel proud of my Metrocard today. Some of my friends are riding to work on bicycles over there. Unfortunatly, the weather is really bad and it's snowing.
>>>>One can certainly argue that society has an moral obligation to provide transportation options for these groups..>>>>>>
These right to life conservatives are moral only if it doesn't cost them a dime. They don't want women to have a abortion but could care less about providing health care and day care for the child once they're born. They talk a big game about caring for the elderly so long as they don't have to provide bus service for them.
*We have to hope that gas prices skyrockets this summer to over $2.00 dollars a gallon.*
They say it will.
*These right to life conservatives are moral only if it doesn't cost them a dime.*
They never mention how much the welfare costs when they're forced to have unwanted babies they can't afford at that time either. That's in the millions/billions.
These are worse than anarchists. They're CONSERVATIVES!
Folks. They're is no money to fund transportation because Washington defunded millions away from cities and states because of the multiple war effort. I knew this was going to happen and now people are being left without public transportation.
Cities better start raising fares to save their transit systems. All those better vote on the next election with their pocketbook in mind.
Anyway, I disagree, they're worse than conservatives, they're anarchists! I bet they would even vote down prisons and schools! And if there's anything I learned recently is that there's a million different types of republicans. We have 3 republican leaders and they all bicker and gridlock everything because none of their idealoglies mesh(between Bush, a republican from Alabama and a republican from NY. Lot of fighting!).
On the bright side, with 1.70/gal of gas and rising. I wonder how this will effect talk of transit and transporation taxes coming up in november in some regions. It sure can't hurt. Maybe this will all work out(not including 10-15 years of design and construction after that).
The issue is whether the lack of impact is temporary or not. There are only 330,000 trips per day on this system -- the media indicates that a sizeable number of these are by the poor, disabled, elderly and young.
One can certainly argue that society has an moral obligation to provide transportation options for these groups, but arguing that not providing transit to these groups has a substantial economic impact on the overall community is going to be tough to support with facts in this case.
That's the problem. There is no aggregate impact as 95% of the people drive so the small portion that takes public transportation is stuck without service. Folks. We have to hope that gas prices skyrockets this summer to over $2.00 dollars a gallon.
>>>>>The issue is whether the lack of impact is temporary or not. There are only 330,000 trips per day on this system -- the media indicates that a sizeable number of these are by the poor, disabled, elderly and young. <<<<
Bingo. Folks 330K of people is probably more than Path, HBLR, NY Waterway combined! WOW. I feel proud of my Metrocard today. Some of my friends are riding to work on bicycles over there. Unfortunatly, the weather is really bad and it's snowing.
>>>>One can certainly argue that society has an moral obligation to provide transportation options for these groups..>>>>>>
These right to life conservatives are moral only if it doesn't cost them a dime. They don't want women to have a abortion but could care less about providing health care and day care for the child once they're born. They talk a big game about caring for the elderly so long as they don't have to provide bus service for them.
*We have to hope that gas prices skyrockets this summer to over $2.00 dollars a gallon.*
They say it will.
*These right to life conservatives are moral only if it doesn't cost them a dime.*
They never mention how much the welfare costs when they're forced to have unwanted babies they can't afford at that time either. That's in the millions/billions.
These are worse than anarchists. They're CONSERVATIVES!
Folks. They're is no money to fund transportation because Washington defunded millions away from cities and states because of the multiple war effort. I knew this was going to happen and now people are being left without public transportation.
Cities better start raising fares to save their transit systems. All those better vote on the next election with their pocketbook in mind.
Anyway, I disagree, they're worse than conservatives, they're anarchists! I bet they would even vote down prisons and schools! And if there's anything I learned recently is that there's a million different types of republicans. We have 3 republican leaders and they all bicker and gridlock everything because none of their idealoglies mesh(between Bush, a republican from Alabama and a republican from NY. Lot of fighting!).
On the bright side, with 1.70/gal of gas and rising. I wonder how this will effect talk of transit and transporation taxes coming up in november in some regions. It sure can't hurt. Maybe this will all work out(not including 10-15 years of design and construction after that).
Still, something to watch over in a post-9/11 world.
"This is a manhattan bound 5 express train. Thu next. Stop is, Westchester Square, east tremont avenue"
Regards,
Jimmy
On the northbound trip? Did the kid run downtown and turn? Loop the loop at Bklyn Bridge?
Regards,
Jimmy
--Mark
I remember the conductor or someone being quoted to the effect, it wasn't until the kid seemed totally lost as to what to do next - AFTER tripping the arm - that he came under suspicion. BTW, I don't recall seeing that curve talked about here very much, but when heading uptown the operator can't see the signals until he or she's on top of them. When I used to ride the 5 regularly I heard many a train operator blurting out "[expeltive deleted]!" on that sharp curve.
Nice going, MTA.
A 16 year old kid wants to drive the train for free. He made all the stops and switched train types that he had never operated on and his only mistake was going tooo fast in Washington Heights and being tripped. That is someone that you can train and put into service rather quickly, from a practical viewpoint.
Most of the other people who stole transit equipment proceeded to smash it up rather quickly.
Nice going, MTA.
Like I said, anything but straight.
avid.
That is a fairly straight stretch which in the olden days was likened to a racetrack. Of course, it was a racetrack with the R-10s.
The answer is to apply these timers as Station time, not Grade Time, but NYCT won't do that.
As I ride the CPW express almost everyday now, I get to experience these great timers all the time.
These are also the cities with the highest air polution in the cities. We have to thank the stars that there were people who spent their entire fortune in building our railroads and subways. Those states that did not build will pay for it in the near future.
These are also the cities with the highest air polution in the nation. We have to thank the stars that there were people who spent their entire fortune in building our railroads and subways. Those states that did not build will pay for it in the near future.
The next highest city is Washington, D.C., with 37 percent, followed by Boston, San Francisco, Chicago and Philadelphia.
Maybe because even if you owned a car (like myself), you'd have to be high on something to drive into the city, pay high parking charges, and deal with horrendous traffic.
Also, note how the other cities listed have good transit systems with job sites located in the central-buisness district, and so-so downtown highway access.
Story on new building entrance at Roosevelt Ave/74th st
Slattery/Skanska and Company are doing a bang up job as the lead contractor in the complex, and they will be months ahead of schedule in the projected November 2005 completion date. I also posted some pictures a couple of weeks ago on the building's interior and staircases. They are currently doing Dekalb/Flatbush Aves and it looks good there too.
I can't say the same for Cab Associates whose pitiful work at Broadway Junction is forever late. They are the same bums that did 14th st/8th Ave and 161st st/Yankee Stadium (before other contractors took over the 3 mentioned stations.)
Story on new building entrance at Roosevelt Ave/74th st
Slattery/Skanska and Company are doing a bang up job as the lead contractor in the complex, and they will be months ahead of schedule in the projected November 2005 completion date. I also posted some pictures a couple of weeks ago on the building's interior and staircases. They are currently doing Dekalb/Flatbush Aves and it looks good there too.
I can't say the same for Cab Associates whose pitiful work at Broadway Junction is forever late. They are the same bums that did 14th st/8th Ave and 161st st/Yankee Stadium (before other contractors took over the 3 mentioned stations.)
Once renovations at this station, Queens Plaza, and Lexington Ave. are complete, the commute in from Queens is going to look a whole lot better!
Mixed consists look terrible.
wayne
David
The odd couple
??? 4696-4803 are ALL R-42s
Tony
BTW all of Denver's LRVs can and do operate together. There are subtle differences between various groups of cars depending on when they were ordered, but to the casual observer, they look identical.
R40S-R40M-R40M-R40M-R40M-R40M-R40M-R40M-R40M-R40S
R40S-R42-R42-R42-R42-R42-R42-R42-R42-R40S
R40S-R38-R38-R38-R38-R38-R38-R38-R38-R40S
R40S-R32-R32-R32-R32-R32-R32-R32-R32-R40S
4400-4501-4500-4501, etc.
It would produce a 4-car set of R40*'s with a slant at each end.
4460 and 4665 are still in the C/R position.
I have yet to ride a consist with a mix of R42 and R40M. If I did, it would be a flashback to early 2001, when I used to see consists like this on the M.
Suppose we give all contestants a "budget" of $20 billion, and impose a few crude cost factors. For example, say new tunneling costs $1 billion per mile, and new stations cost $200m each.
Now, this would still give scope for a wide range of speculation, while forcing the map-drawers to at least consider trade-offs. You could add rules to improve the reality/fantasy quotient — for instance, by making the tunneling cost different depending on where you do it.
A budget of only $20 billion would mean only 20 route miles would be allowed to be built, and that does not include the stations needed.
http://www.gazette.net/200411/princegeorgescty/updates/205675-1.html
Michael
Washingtonn,
Can't
America
Make
A
Real
One?
The 80's versions are the official vehicle of white/trailler trash everywhere. Or the upscale trash that can afford better than a Trans Am or Firechicken.
The old ones are cool, but a Nova's lighter.
Recall that James Bond 007 drives a brand new car in the year 2003 and yet this is the same guy who saved the world from Dr. No and SPECTRE in 1962. And he just doesn't seem to age.
I did discover, however, that there's a rather loud foghorn located somewhere near my neighborhood. Guess that's what I get for living three blocks from the harbor. It adds a nice sense of atmosphere and isn't particularly loud inside my apartment, but the frequency is so low it can be heard just about everywhere. I guess that's the idea... If it couldn't be heard over long distances, it wouldn't be much of a foghorn. Just out of curiousity, does anybody know exactly where this thing is located?
Saturday, I took the subway into the city and did some walking around. On the (N) express from 59th Street, we passed a major construction site in the tunnel just north of 36th Street. Looks like the entire track and trackbed is being dug up and replaced, and there's a couple work trains parked on the track north and south of the site, and some debris and equipment piled up on the north end of the platform at 36th. Anybody know exactly what all is being done here, and how long it's supposed to last? Needless to say, all southbound (N) trains are running on the local track along the 4th Avenue line while this is going on. Also, northbound express trains are running very slow while passing the site; The (R) local actually passed us and got to Pacific Street before us. For any of those who like to check out work trains and equipment, though, I highly reccomend a trip to 36th Street.
I got off at Union Square, walked around a bit, and headed up towards Herald Square. Along the way I stopped to explore the ABC store just north of Union Square, which is an incredible place. Six floors of interesting and overpriced furniture and light fixtures. I especially liked the funky 1970's stuff on the second floor. Once up at Herald Square, I spent some time wandering around Macy's and riding the ancient wooden escalators.
From there, I took an (F) train to Roosevelt Island and rode the Tram back into Manhattan. The Roosevelt Island subway station was impressively deep, although I was somewhat disappointed to see that the escalators had been broken into two seperate runs with a landing in the middle. It would have been much more cool to have a single bank of incredibly long escalators, but I can understand the pragmatic reasons for having a landing.
I took advantage of my newfound ability to use my unlimited-ride Metrocard on the Tram, and it was very cool. Incredible views of the city and of the Queensboro Bridge, although the Tram seems to have been made redundant by the subway station.
From the Manhattan end of the Tram, I walked over to Times Square via Fifth Avenue and Rockefeller Center, and then took the subway home.
On Sunday (yesterday), I went to mass up at the Cathedral of St. John the Divine and went out to brunch with some friends from the congregation afterwards. After that, I decided to walk up to the northern tip of Manhattan Island. I've previously walked from the Cathedral all the way down to Battery Park, so now I can say I've covered the entire length of Manhattan on foot.
I pretty much stayed on Broadway with only a couple exceptions. Around 125th Street I took a short detour to check out the Fairway store under the Hudson Parkway viaduct. What an incredible cornucopia for the senses! I also love their store on the Upper West Side (and Zabar's. *drool*...) One day soon I hope to return with some money in my wallet. I remember readong somewhere that Fairway is also getting ready to open a third store in the Red Hook area of Brooklyn. Anybody know if there's any truth to that, and when it's supposed to happen?
I was also very impressed by the 12th Avenue viaduct in that area... Pretty incredible hunk of steelwork. I'll have to return with my camera at some point.
Back on Broadway, I continued northward up to the Washington Heights area. The topography begins to get very interesting north of the George Washington Bridge, and I made my second detour a few blocks north of there. I noticed that Broadway was becoming rather dull while the row of apartment buildings at the top of the ridge along Ft. Washington Avenue looked far more interesting, so around 187th Street I headed up a very steep hill in that direction. It was interesting to see the backs of these buildings, with the "ground" floor actually a good 5-6 floors above the street behind them. I glimpsed an interesting subway entrance for the 181st Street station on the IND, and climbed a massive flight of stairs to get up to Ft. Washington Avenue (pant, pant). Once up there, I was treated to some incredible views. Again, I'll need to return with my camera.
The neighborhood itself also seemed very cool... I love the Art Deco apartment buildings, and I've seen a lot of rentals advertized up there that are actually reasonably priced. I may look at the possibility of getting my own apartment within the next year or two, once I have a job and get some money saved up. (My current place isn't bad for now, but my roommate is an annoying "daddy's little princess" type from the suburbs and a total slob, and her boyfriend has slept over every night for the past two weeks. Don't get me started.)
I continued walking north along Ft. Washington Avenue and found myself at the entrance to Ft. Tryon Park, along with another interesting IND subway entrance. The park itself was very nice, and I love the network of roadways connecting to/from Henry Hudson Parkway. I had to stand on a good vantage point for a bit and figure out where each roadway was coming and going. I also walked past the Cloisters (but didn't go inside), and then climbed the steep trail back down into the neighborhood below. I found myself in Inwood and back on Broadway, and before long, walking across the Broadway Bridge into the Bronx. Nice view of the Harlem River and the tall bridge that carries Henry Hudson Parkway, and it was like a little taste of Chicago listening to the IRT subway cross the drawbridge on the tracks above me.
Now with very sore feet, I climbed the stairs at the 225th Street station and boarded the (1) train. I made it back to the Cathedral just in time for Evensong at 6:00, and came staright home from there.
I had another good walk last weekend, going from the Cathedral down to Union Square. I've walked that distance before down Broadway, but this time, due to the beautiful spring-like weather, I went all the way through Central Park from the northwest corner at 110th and CPW to the southeast corner at 59th and Fifth Ave. That is one huge park, and the crowds were out in full force... Great for people-watching.
By the way, I had a job interview on Thursday that went pretty well, and the guy has e-mailed me back asking for references. I'll interpret that as a good sign. The office is in the Chelsea area, just off the 8th Avenue IND line (making Washington Heights even more attractive if I get this job). Wish me luck.
Peace,
-- David
Brooklyn, NY
Foghorn distances can be deceiving. I can routinely hear the one at St. George and that's about two miles away. You could be hearing that one or its companion at Whitehall. There may also be one in/near the Bklyn Army Terminal and/or Van Brunt St in Redhook where the Water Taxi docks.
Saturday, I took the subway into the city and did some walking around. On the (N) express from 59th Street, we passed a major construction site in the tunnel just north of 36th Street. Looks like the entire track and trackbed is being dug up and replaced, and there's a couple work trains parked on the track north and south of the site, and some debris and equipment piled up on the north end of the platform at 36th. Anybody know exactly what all is being done here, and how long it's supposed to last? Needless to say, all southbound (N) trains are running on the local track along the 4th Avenue line while this is going on. Also, northbound express trains are running very slow while passing the site; The (R) local actually passed us and got to Pacific Street before us. For any of those who like to check out work trains and equipment, though, I highly reccomend a trip to 36th Street.
Concrete chip-out and replacement of the switch north of 36 St on the southbound tracks. At the moment, work should continue in the area late nights and weekends until sometime in early April (somewhere, there's a thread about N service running through the tunnel for the AM rush - this is the reason).
As for the norhbound expresses, that track was flagged with three yellows (work on adjacent track), but no one put out the green resume until sometime in the late morning (and even then, it didn't stay lit very long). Obviously, your T/O missed the new rule about when to resume in the absence of a green light.
No, but I'm dying to find out. Every now and then I also hear a foghorn, especially in the morning, but I'm way on the other side of Greenwood Cemetary from you. I thought it might be the subway, which passes below nearby, but it's a different sound. I thought it might be at train on the Bay Ridge Branch, but it usually hear it coming from the NORTH side of my house. I've been trying to figure this out for years.
-- David
Brooklyn, NY
Lights are at (as of 1981):
Bay Ridge Pier (69 St/Shore Pkway)
Two on the Buttermilk Channel side of Governor's Island
SW corner of Governor's Island
Ferry terminal on Governor's Island
Harbor side of the Coast Guard Office building next to Whitehall Terminal
Pier in Liberty State Park (between Liberty and Ellis Islands)
Robbins Reef (small lighthouse about 1 mile out from St George.
St George Ferry Terminal (not listed, but I know it's there now)
This is one of those catch-all quads. It contains the NE corner of Staten Island (which is why I have it)(shows the tracks at the railyard now occupied by the Stadium and its parking areas); a hunk of Brooklyn - 86 to 36, waterfront to 7 Ave and Red Hook from the water to the BQE (shows Bush Terminal tracks and Bay Ridge line and Yard); Governor's Island; the SW edge of Manhattan from Battery Park to 23 St; Hoboken, Jersey City and Bayonne down to about 18 St, Newark Bay and Kearney (shows all the trackage in that area, nicely labeled Conrail).
(What I learn from growing up in a Navy family...)
-- David
Brooklyn, NY
I highly recommend it. In April, there won't be a first Saturday event, there will be an all day party on April 17th, music and other stuff.
Stay where you are through the summer, and I think you'll find there is lots of good people and good things to do for little or no money in Brooklyn, although I certainly like Wash. Heights and Inwood as neighborhoods also.
Well good luck with your job prospects and ENJOY the great city you live in!
MTA officials while heartened to see its bus and rail ridership
rebounding to pre-strike levels have noticed the Gold Line's
passenger patterns and responded accordingly.
For the past month, trains have been traveling the 13.7-mile route
one car at a time rather than two cars hitched together, as is the
Gold Line's daytime practice.
"It's not a secret that the night service is less patronized,' said
Bruce Shelburne, schedules manager for MTA's rail operations
division. "We're tailoring the size of our trains to the demand of
our ridership (and) the heaviest periods. That's pretty much an
industry-wide practice.
"It's just a matter of getting a feel for what the ridership will
be,' he said. "We run one-car trains through the close of service (at
2 a.m.) and then we start the next morning with two.'
The Metro Gold Line began service last July, and slowly the newest
route in MTA's expanding rail network has been finding its audience.
But the strike by MTA mechanics in October and November dealt a heavy
blow to Gold Line ridership, along with all of MTA's December train
service.
The Metropolitan Transportation Authority began running one-car
evening trains Feb. 1 and will continue to do so indefinitely.
Starting with the 8:11 p.m. northbound train, workers uncouple the
two cars at Union Station, sending one on its way.
The first one-car train of the night departs the Sierra Madre Villa
Station in Pasadena at 8:51 p.m., Shelburne said.
While the Gold Line trains run every 10 minutes during peak morning
and afternoon periods, late night they run every 20 minutes.
MTA, which operates the Gold Line, may switch to one-car trains on
Sunday mornings, another lightly used period, Shelburne said.
Officials could not immediately pinpoint how much money or
electricity the agency is saving by scaling back. But taking some of
the Gold Line's small fleet 26 cars total out of service at night has
built considerable flexibility into work crews' cleaning and upkeep
of the trains.
All Gold Line platforms are long enough to fit three-car trains now
the norm on the Blue Line and the MTA is preparing to install
additional "traction power substations' on the route to supply more
electricity to power longer Gold Line trains.
Crowds packed Gold Line trains on New Year's Day to get to the Rose
Parade and Rose Bowl game, and Shelburne predicted ridership could
grow in spring and summer.
"Likewise, we might start addressing Friday and Saturday nights
differently,' he said, intimating that the Gold Line has become
something of a "date night' train.
"Ridership is heavier on Friday and Saturday nights than it is on
other nights,......aw!!.come on !!
**********************
PLEASE NOTE FROM SALAAMALLAH i notice 2 car trains on the 210 often
during late night ops and quite a few ridin'
if thhe line had hooked up to the BLUE LINE lie it was supposed' ta'
do in THE FIRST PLACE ...this line would have been STANDING ROOM ONLY
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BlueLineLosAngelesMTA/
running only one car like the line ??
when the west extension is built lookout !!
we need our pacific electric system back !!
I say all this because this happened for the first few years the Blue Line was in operation, but eventually it got to be so popular even at night, they stopped doing that (though they may still cut the 3-car weekday trains down to 2 at night). So maybe eventually the Gold Line cars will stopped being cut evenings.
I'm guessing the consists are cut at Union Station since the yard is just north of there, and it's easier to fumigate a train sitting at the terminal than in service on the line.
But then, when you are dealing with California transit properties, the use of logic is forbidden.
Chuck
But if you insist - try:
http://www-tech.mit.edu/Subway/Archives/CityHall/CityHall.html
There are historical as well as more modern photos at the above site.
You can always try over at Harry's:
http://www.nycrail.com/stations/irt/city_hall_irt.htm
Golden DUH! Turkey of the Decade, goes to the NYC Department of Correction's web site. Scroll down until you see "Directions to Rikers Island". Then start laughing as you wonder how subway service has changed in over 30 years.
DUH!
What prompted you to look at the DOC site?
Thanks,
--Steve
The rest of the Manhattan neighborhood maps are no longer available from the MTA's web site.
Mark
--Steve
Thank you,
Clayton (ntwrkguy)
>>This is a Wakefield-bound 2 train. The next stop is Gun Hill Road.
>>Stand clear of the closing doors, please!
http://community.webshots.com/photo/124066322/124067673lrEDxu
Enjoy
http://community.webshots.com/album/124066322bRNeVv
Thanks for sharing, I missed the train this year.
The train will consist of a New York Yankee F-3 A-unit diesel, a New York Yankee boxcar, a New York Yankee tank car, and to bring up the rear of the train, a New York Yankee caboose. The set will include Proto-Sound 2.0, track and transformer. It will be priced at $349.95.
BOY-OH-BOY YANKEE FANS...hurry to your MTH dealer and order #30-4121-1 today!
Thanks but no thanks! Enjoy your trains!
By the way, I heard that the MTH Mets & Yankees Subway Series trains are really the unissued Graffitti trains painted over that the MTA would not allow them to release!!
Are you waiting for the two car add-on set(20-2283-3) that was supposed to be out this past January?
Did you get the previous R-32 add-on set(20-6637) that came out in April 2003?
This is what Gargraves track looks like
If anyone would like to share some stories, anecdotes or curiosities regarding the Boston System (Which I might add the oldest in America) I would welcome it.
I have rode my subways systems throughout the US, Canada and Paris.
Here is how I would rank them from what I have seen:
Atlanta (Marta)
Boston (MBTA)
Montreal
Philadelphia
Washington
PATH
Toronto (CTA) (not so much for the subways..but for the trolleys)
Paris (unbelievable system..you can go anywhere!)
But #1...NUMERO UNO..the Masterpiece of them all is New York.
All the others, except for Paris are "Minor" League.
New York's system is the BEST. I have been riding since I was a young boy and at 51, I am still fascinated by it all. I had thought I was among the only a few people with this fascination, but I am finding out I have many friends who share my interest.
I was aboard the Fan Trip on February 28th. (Wish there were more pics from the 28th trip!) I thorougly enjoyed the trip, the people I met as well as the transit crew. It was well worth it.
A special thanks to Allan (IRT1904) and David Pirrman for helping me get started with Subtalk. Looking forward to many exhanges with my fellow fans. Thank you!
The only Boston subway story I know of is "Charley of the MTA"!!!
Welcome aboard!!!
Well let me tell you a story bout a man named Charlie on that tragic and fateful day, he put 10 cents in his pocket, took his wife and family and went to ride the MTA....
But did he ever return? No he never returned and his fate is still unlearned, he may ride forever neath the streets of Boston, he's the man who never returned.
How can I afford to see my sister in Chelsea or my cousin in Roxbury?
(Wish there were more pics from the 28th trip!)
Yeah, sorry, I wasn't on that trip. I was on the next day's trip and have posted many pics of it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
One guy says to the other:
My grandparents came over on the Mayflower.
The other guys says: I got you beat! My grandparents were here to meet them!!
Thanks for your forgiveness for being from Beantown.
We do ok...for a little "stop on the road"
Thank you also for your welcome!
We'll be tawking!
You're welcome.
Welcome to the board.
Ah...such are the dreams of the subway fan.
Thanks for the welcome!
Sorry I missed you on the MOD trip on the 28th, I rode on the 29th excursion. But I am looking forward to meeting you someday. However, I must caution you; I am a true NY Yankee fan.
I, as well, look forward to meeting you on a MOD or other excusion. Being a NY Yankee fan? Well somethings we'll have to put aside for the greater good! At least you are a baseball fan..and thats a good thing.
How's that for diplomacy?
Take care my friend.
As for the NYC system, I've been riding it since birth, and before, because my parents, and their parents, rode it too, and it's in my DNA. The system I am next most familiar with is that of Chicago.
I have hunch you may be referring to the Lechmere Station.
Did the ride take you by the old Boston Garden and then across the Lechmere Charles River Viaduct? I am thinking this is where you mean. Interestingly enough..that Viaduct was built in 1910 and the Lechmere Station was a temporary station...but remains much the same today as it did over 90 years ago! Now thats progress!
The NYC system is the "peice de resistance" for any subway, or generic rail buff. I still get goosebumps when I ride it.
Take Care my good friend.
You're most welcome to my "welcome".
Unfortunately, I don't remember enough about my one Boston mass transit ride in April 1977 to answer your question. I think I was preoccupied talking with the people I was riding with, and whether or not we would go see "Yellow Submarine" at MIT that evening. Turns out we didn't. Thanks for the details of Lechmere Station and Viaduct, though.
Glad to read the NYC system still gives you goosebumps when you ride it. Me too, especially the elevated lines.
You take care too.
I'd love to catch Boston's system sooner or later. I hope you enjoy your stay here.
My only other qualm is..I wish it were safer. Seems like some lines..you can't help but feel that you better get off the next stop.
Only to realize, that it won't help. But, I see more and more things are getting better.
I think its fundamental of the residents to take back what is rightfully theres. In bits and pieces..I see it happening.
Too bad you didn't see 4573 on the "L"!!!
I thought I remembered the (L) went "all R-143" some time ago. I guess that didn't last long. And I'm not complaining either.
LONG LIVE THE RAILFAN WINDOW!
While I don't mind the 42's being around, and I wish they could stick around; The L line can't use CBTC until they are gone.
--Mark
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?location=cJ83rx1r5SsGI9L8p9Tq6Trd5U4whUBX2sVMX%2bEhZxk6adq3gLyP8y7OIO82k2UQaam%2bD6sxmD%2fLt9DEl1vcH6bkaTQbNUs7QM%2bw9IkM8IUXhFO7aMx%2b%2fg%3d%3d&address=6th%20street&city=jersey%20city&state=nj&zipcode=&country=US&addtohistory=&submit=Get%20Map
That's a very busy intersection but not really a blind corner from the drivers point of view. The motorists can clearly see the light rail almost two city blocks aways. I guess the next step is to have the Lightrail drivers bull horn their way before crossing that intersection.
They do use those gates. The light rail going to West Side Avenue crosses an intersection before reaching Garfield Avenue where a gate closes off these road. I'm sure they did this because of the heavy trucks that use that road.
Hopefully it won't happen there again.
>>>>>>>>Police said a man wielding a bottle and a stick assaulted a passenger aboard the light rail train Friday afternoon.
According to reports, officers were called to the 22nd Street Light Rail Station at 3:58 p.m. When police arrived, the victim, who had a small cut on his nose, stated that a man he knew only as "Cliff" boarded the train with three men and three women at 22nd Street.
The victim told police he and Cliff began to argue about a previous incident, and Cliff then threw a bottle at him, but missed, according to reports. Cliff then pulled out a stick and swung it at the victim's head, but the victim blocked it with his arm, which caused him to fall to the ground, police said. At that time, police said Cliff and the rest of the group kicked the victim on his head and body.
<<<<<<<<<<
If it is, that's a lot of screen real estate.
My logo has been getting slimmer and slimmer because of this.
50 pixels high
I say all this because this happened for the first few years the Blue Line was in operation, but eventually it got to be so popular even at night, they stopped doing that (though they may still cut the 3-car weekday trains down to 2 at night). So maybe eventually the Gold Line cars will stopped being cut evenings.
I'm guessing the consists are cut at Union Station since the yard is just north of there, and it's easier to fumigate a train sitting at the terminal than in service on the line.
But then, when you are dealing with California transit properties, the use of logic is forbidden.
big (110k):
And to add insult to injury, Doomberg and Paturkey will be on hand to recreate the very first IRT trip on 10/27/04, possibly the very same time. Why not make this open to the public for a change and leave these two politicians off the train? They have been everywhere else before the public (and us Subtalkers) get a chance to ride the first public train. Give the general public a chance to shine this time and they can have everything else.
Platform at City Hall only allows 3 cars, and the middle doors are useless.
Peace,
ANDEE
One such lease back in September 2002 involved the purchase of 570 subway cars by Wachovia and Altria.
Is this shocking?? I don't know. I doubt if the MTA pays cash for its subway cars. I suppose in the past the MTA borrowed money and pays the bonds off over many years. In this case, it seems like these companies paid the MTA $1.2 billion, which the MTA put in an escrow account. They use that money to make the lease payments. That sounds good. But is the MTA still paying off the debt incurred when they purchased the cars from the manufacturers? Because it doesn't sound like Wachovia bought the cars directly from the manufacturers.
The objection to these deals is that the companies get some hefty tax benefits, which cost the federal government a lot of money. I wonder why the federal government is objecting to some large companies getting tax breaks?
Anyway, see if you can make any sense out of this.
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/business/national/8137449.htm
http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/business/personal_finance/8138440.htm
Old news, paul. Some of the R-62s and R-68s are leased vehicles. These vehicles are subject to inspection by owners reps. periodically. I think if you ever get over to the LIRR you'll see, stenciled on the #2 end of some cars "Owned by Port Authority of NY&NJ" or words to that extent. Again - this is old news on subtalk.
Of course the part of your post that's most interesting is the part copied above. Are you intimating that you believe that the current administration should not be trying to close tax loopholes for large corporations?
Actually I was wondering if the federal government is objecting to the tax write offs, because New York City gets some benefit from the deal?
For those of you who are unfamiliar, a "write-off" is an amount (typically of an expense) that is deducted (in full or fraction) from revenue when determining taxable income.
But they get taxable income from leasing the vehicles to a transit agency.
If the net effect is free money for the corporation (and offhand it's not obvious that it is), then it's a legal tax avoidance scam and should be stopped.
Example: Company buys 1 subway car for the price of $950,000.00. That's the value of the car. It's value is depreciated over the lifetime of the car. The depreciation schedule shows how much value can be applied each year of the car's service life.
Multiply that single car by a 600 car order and you are talking about a lot of depreciation.
The whole idea started when the transit industry was privately ownned. The transit companies could buy new equipment without having to invest the total cost of the cars themselves.
It's not really a tax dodge, it's a common business event, even today.
For bigger purchases, it is required (I think) to write it off over the life of the equipment.
Elias
Why?
BTC was writing off the depreciation value of the rail property, plus the last of the depreciation value of the 75 PCC Cars bought in 1944.
Interesting - a company writing off depreciation on equipment and property they were not using from November 3, 1963 to August 15, 1964.
Of course they should. This cost the federal government far more than the MTA gets. If it didn't the corporations would not be interested. Let's cut this back door crap.
Dating back to the 20s and earlier, no doubt, placards could be found on all locomotives and rolling stock:
"Owned by a trust agreement by Somebody's Big Bankers Trust"
or words to that effect.
But what's the big deal, your automobile is probably owned by Some Big Bank Company under an Areement of some sort.
The problems with taxes and taxation is an entirely separate issue.
I'd make personal income taxes at 15% for all income under $100,000; 17% for all income between $100,001 and $1,000,000; and 20% on all income above $1,000,001. And I would make no loopholes whatsoever.
Everybody uses the short form. PERIOD. No Exceptions.
For business, I'd set the tax rate at .1% (correct POINT . One percent), but that it would be assessed on GROSS INCOME not on Profits or Net Income. You pay a tenth penny on every dollar that you touch!
If you do not tax on GROSS, then it is the corporation that gets to decide what is profit (taxible) and what is expenses (not). Under the present system of taxing net, you will find more holes than net, but that is exactly what a net is: doesn't matter wether you are catching fish off sheepshead bay or electrons at Enron: Nets are made of holes!
Finally: Taxation is a revenue sourse for the government: It may NEVER be used (fairly) for engineering social or environmental change. All loopholes and breaks for... whatever... must be eliminated.
You want to encourage a corporation to not pollute: you FINE them for poluting, you do not give them tax breaks for installing environmental equipment.
You want a corporation to be fair in hiring practices, then you fine them for violations of the law, you do not give them a tax preak because their workforce is made up of a certain ethnic mix.
End of issue.
Elias
On the corporate side, I suspect that the specific system you describe would just lead to business taking on a different form. You'd see a lot more financial chicanery of the Enron variety (set up corporate HQ in Bermuda, Ireland or some other low tax country -- then funnel only profits to the US operating subsidiary). But you're on the right track -- there are too many corporations that are able to avoid taxes (just read Berkshire Hathaway's latest commentary).
The rail car thing is disturbing because it is such an obvious tax dodge. Companies that have nothing to do with rail transit end up owning subway cars and writing off the depreciation. If the taxes that would have been levied on that depreciation were added up and divided proportionately over the transit agencies that participate in these schemes, there's no doubt the agencies would be better off not participating. Of course, the tax revenue would likely find other ways to be spent...
CG
For business, I'd set the tax rate at .1% (correct POINT . One percent), but that it would be assessed on GROSS INCOME not on Profits or Net Income. You pay a tenth penny on every dollar that you touch!
That's very low. Compare current UK tax rates:
Income tax
£0 - £4,615 ($0 - $8,441) 0%
£4,616 - £5,576 ($8,442 - $10,196) 10%
£5,577 - £35,116 ($10,197 - $64,197) 22%
£35,117+ ($64,198+) 40%
Corporation tax
£0 - £10,000 ($0 - $18,276) 0%
£10,001 - £50,000 ($18,277 - $91,378) Marginal relief at 19/400
£50,001 - £300,000 ($91,379 - $547,436) 19%
£300,001 - £1,500,000 ($547,437 - $2,737,243) Marginal relief at 11/400
£1,500,001+ ($2,737,244+) 30%
These much higher rates are historic lows. There is a growing consensus that these are way too low and penalise the poor too much, especially given increased government reliance on non-means-based taxes as a source of revenue. I would abolish council tax and split revenues 50-50 between central and local government. My new tax bands would be:
Income Tax
£0 - £5,000 ($0 - $9,128) 0%
£5,001 - £8,000 ($9,129 - $14,605) 7½%
£8,001 - £13,000 ($14,606 - $23,732) 15%
£13,001 - £20,000 ($23,733 - $36,511) 22½%
£20,001 - £33,000 ($36,512 - $60,240) 30%
£33,001 - £50,000 ($60,241 - $91,272) 40%
£50,001 - £73,000 ($91,273 - $133,254) 50%
£73,001+ ($133,255+) 65%
Corporation Tax (Public agencies and the established Church exempt)
£0 - £15,000 ($0 - $27,380) 0%
£15,001 - £40,000 ($27,381 - $73,013) 7½%
£40,001 - £91,000 ($73,014 - $166,105) 15%
£91,001 - £220,000 ($166,106 - $401,572) 22½%
£220,001 - £429,000 ($401,573 - $783,097) 30%
£429,001 - £850,000 ($783,098 - $1,551,591) 40%
£850,001 - £1,679,000 ($1,551,592 - $3,064,849) 50%
£1,679,001 - £2,958,000 ($3,064,850 - $5,399,537) 60%
£2,958,001 - £4,123,000 ($5,399,538 - $7,526,129) 65%
£4,123,000 - £6,290,000 ($7,526,130 - $11,481,773) 70%
£6,290,000+ ($11,481,774+) 75%
A simpler 'down to earth' tax write-off is recreational vehicles (motorhomes.) You create a corporation or company, buy the RV and rent it out for most of the year. Depreaciation, maintainance and loss react against the profits just like any business. The only draw-back is 'busy season' (summer) and you have limited personal use. I used to rent BIG motorhomes from a pilot after season so I got a break
and extra time because I returned it maintained. CI Peter
With over a century of history, it's sometimes hard to remember that the origin of municipal bonds was with New York City, from what I've heard or read over the years. It was a new way to pay for public financing to build the first underground rapid transit route in New York, the one that opened in 1904. Earlier rapid transit was capitalized through stock offerings for the most part, though some corporate bonds might also have been part of the process. The modern stock corporation is basically a product of post-Civil War railroad construction, isn't it?
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
Interestingly, the head of the union and the general manager of SEPTA are women. Some workers expressed the hope the two women would work things out better than has been done in the past.
http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/local/8131362.htm
Paul, don't you think that's a sexist point of view or do you believe that women in power are warmer and fuzzier that their male counterparts? What's your opinion?
However, I am not sure if SEPTA may just want to sit back and try to break the union this timem, assuming action against the strike does not come from Harrisburg.
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
Chuck Greene
"Here comes SEPTA Strike, Here comes SEPTS Strike, Right down SEPTA Strike lane."
Then again, the 40 days and 40 nights of the CTD/STD strike in 1998 was Hell in Philadelphia... and right after a tornado had touched down, no less... maybe they just wanted to give the riders a break.
*Also SEPTA is offering no pay increase for the first 2 years and 2% for the last two years.*
I could see how they could be up in arms about this. But they are paid extremely well compared to everyone else. And like airline pilots, you have to suck it up if you don't want to get laid off(which is illegal in their contracts anyway).
Are they going to fight over getting or not getting fired if you take drugs on the job like they did last time? Take the health and hold off on the raise for 2 years guys. You still make out better than lots of white-collar folks.
*Also SEPTA is offering no pay increase for the first 2 years and 2% for the last two years.*
I could see how they could be up in arms about this. But they are paid extremely well compared to everyone else. And like airline pilots, you have to suck it up if you don't want to get laid off(which is illegal in their contracts anyway).
Are they going to fight over getting or not getting fired if you take drugs on the job like they did last time? Take the health and hold off on the raise for 2 years guys. You still make out better than lots of white-collar folks.
Instead of complaing about how good they get it, why don't you complain and go on strike as well. As long as you're not in an essential function, you and your co-workers should go on strike and force management to deal with your problems. It's your legal right to do so...
So basically, any attempt by you to use a group action to achieve better working conditions results in your termination. Then how are you supposed to attempt to gain better pay and better working conditions?
Though construction is at a really high demand and they still can't find people for that. I hear you can walk onto a job site and command $18 an hour with no experience, which is probably 80% more than the going rate.
In a good economy, you can't get a pay raise or benefits? Quit and go somewhere else. In a bad economy no one quits and are all afraid of job security.
Of course in SEPTA's case. They could sell all their buses and have zero ridership, and the union will work it's magic and grant them all 12% raises.
For the record, I'm not anti-union, but tools like strikes should not be used too often or they lose their effectiveness. Strikes mean very little in Philadelphia in comparison to New York because we could never sustain 40 days without transportation.
As for me personally, these stupid strikes [as well as other Philly f#$kups] was reason enough to move to New Jersey. In NJ, NJT drivers CANNOT strike [State law prohibits strikes by public workers], and PATCO usually have decent relations with their union.
And last, but not least, the way unions bully everybody in Philadelphia is one of the major reasons why this city's economy has been shitty for the last 3 decades. The unions are corrupt [many are in bed with the Mafia], too cozy with the politicians, and some [like the building trade unions] are outright racist [keeping their trade unions lily-white insteads of letting in qualified minorities]. And the most inflexible and greedy unions are the ones in the public sectors like the TWU [SEPTA], as well as the PFT[Teachers], DC 33 47 [City gov't workers], and the FOP [cops]. It's one thing to fight for better working conditions, but these unions also fight attempts to make the necessary changes to help their employers keep up with changing conditions in which they operate.
http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/world/ny-wofran093701395mar09,0,4271459.story?coll=ny-worldnews-headlines
Well, at least they aren't killing anyone.
Paul, I don't have the time to read the link right now. I was wondering if the term "warriors" is yours or was taken from the article? The word, werriors would connote ar least sympathy if not support for this form of guerilla warfare. Do you support these anti-capitalist terrorists motives?
In MY view, profits without regard to human values are ipso facto evil. While as a self employed person, I , by definition, am an entrepreneur, I am not merely driven to ever larger gain. Long after I am dead and whatever money spent, I intend that my worl will stand as well done and serviceable for the end user. We ARE all on this spaceship together.
As to the as yet unconvicted felons of Enron et al (not Martha) THAT is whay capital punisgment is for.
I think the French have the right balance: nationalised railways and privatised highways.
Yes
Have I missed some hallowed time when capitalist RR's actually made profits on passenger transport?
Corporations do not provide services because it's a favorite hobby of theirs. Even if something is not directly profitable, it exists to support a part of the corporation that is profitable.
Perhaps you might explain why we have so many bankrupt capitalist airlines?
Companies fail just like people. The government contributes to their continued inefficiency by just bailing them out whenever they have trouble.
It clearly sucks for healthcare unless you think financial success should confer better medical access with no regard to actual need
Healthcare should be provided by the government the same way the government provides police, fire protection and armies.
It fails in allocating housing availability.
No it doesn't. Housing is suppressed by regulations that prevent a more efficient distribution of housing. If rent stabilization didn't exist and middle class people were priced out of Manhattan, it wouldn't be a problem. Middle class people are priced out of Park Avenue too, should we have rent stabilization in those buildings? There's a reason why the subways were built: It allowed people to live places other than Lower Manhattan and still work in the central business district.
It doesn't do very well at pollution avoidance
I can agree. But do you expect anything to exist without regulation? Capitalism is not anarchy.
As to the as yet unconvicted felons of Enron et al (not Martha) THAT is whay capital punisgment is for.
No it isn't. If you had capital punishment for Enron crooks, you can be rest assured that the perp would without hesitation kill every witness to the crime who could possibly testify against him (or her). If the penalty for defalcation is the same as murder, what disincentive is there for the defalcator NOT to kill his witnesses?
Everyone needs some kind of pecuniary gain to survive, but no one needs billions of dollars.
Just like those animal rights activists who scrawl phrases like "Canceled" and "Animal Curelty" on subway ads for the Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey Circus.
Those that want to live that way usually end up broke.
Seriously, I'm missing something. I don't fully see how annoying advertising(known as "noise") is the heart of capitalism. We have problems and lawsuits and controversy over billboards, the issue has nothing to do with capitalism.
With the numbers cited in there, it sounds like they have a lot of ads(lots of "noise", had to get the "content" to stand out), and that's plain annoying. But I recall the nazi's, the communists, and a hosts of others that weren't purely based on capitalism that loved their ads full of graphics and slogans.
http://privatewww.essex.ac.uk/~mjr/NYCSWoffpeak-c-mjr2004.pdf
http://privatewww.essex.ac.uk/~mjr/NYCSWpeak-c-mjr2004.pdf
Print out at A4 size or similar back to back and you have a pocket-sized comprehensive NYC subway map.
Quality has had to be reduced to bring down the file size. Input from subtalkers was extremely helpful last time round, and I would be more than happy to mail out high quality folded copies printed on card, especially in exchange for other maps. Contact me directly if interested.
Other Information
Changes: Manhattan bridge changes were not too dififcult to fit in, as the map was originally designed for when the Broadway line was running local only. The change of name to Broadway Junction was wonderful, and enabled an untidy section of the map to be tidied up. Any more of these planned?
Services shown: The maps give a comprehensive guide to Subway services 24-7, as much information as given on real thing. I show express/local services in a different way to the traditional map, one that enables considerable space saving but still shows all express services. I don't have PATH, LIRR, MN, or Airtrain services. This is a NYC Subway + SIR map only (CF the London Underground map). Coney island assumes completion of the work. Obviously, if I was working on this map full time I would make sure it is accurate month by month, but I have other things that have to be done too.
Geography: A diagrammatic map sacrifices geography for compactness and simplicity. I know about all the geographical 'errors', on this map. Fixing them would require more kinks and/or more room. The people worst effected by geographical 'errors' are those who intend to walk from one Subway station to another armed with only a compass.
File type: These are compressed bitmaps (created by Superpaint on a Mac) converted to pdf files. Sorry about the size. I am currently experimenting with vector graphics, but with a gig of ram on my computer, I do prefer the total control that can only be achieved by editing a bitmap.
What do you mean by incaccurate? If you mean geographically inaccurate as regards relative distances, precise directions in which lines run, etc., then it is not *meant* to be accurate in that sense - it is a diagram, a la Harry Beck, not a map, a la Hagstroms.
If there are actual errors (names of stations spelled wrongly, errors in what times of day different lines operate, etc.), give the specifics to Max and he will correct them.
That was my entire point to begin with.
"W4St - keep the 6 Av above the 8 Av and place the station in the 45
degree area"
I really wanted to keep a single interchange circle for this, and also avoid a change of direction out of sight (i.e. a curve obscured by an interchange circle). Its a very awkward spot, but luckily the line colours contrast well.
"Man bridge - try to run the 6Av above the Bway; i think it's possible
without a lot of work. "
This would only really work if I flipped the Brighton Line, but then I wouldn't be able to fit in its station names. Also, I needed the height at Grand Street so that the station tickmark wouldn't have to go on the curve. Grand street could be raised by putting it between Bowery and Canal Street, but then I would have station names for different lines intermixing. Yuk.
Life would get much easier for me if Delancey St/Essex St were given just one name. I could pull the river to the Left, flip over East Broadway, and then the B/D could enter Manhattan on a single diagonal with no changes in direction.
Man Bridge is really a hard problem.
What about this to solve it:
Marcy some pix right
River @ Williamsburg bridge some pix right
Rutgers Tunnel 45 degree part shorter
Station name "E Bway" right of Rutgers tunnel
This may be enough to run Chrystie/Bridge complete 45 degrees
@CI: Station name some pix right
Station like 59 St at 0 degree instead 45
Terminal letters under station name
So the Brighton swap is may be possible.
Don't see how that will help. Broadway-Lafayette and Spring Street will be compressed. Lettering makes or breaks a map. Station names need daylight around them, and if they don't have it, map become confusing.
"Man Bridge is really a hard problem.
What about this to solve it:
Marcy some pix right
River @ Williamsburg bridge some pix right
Rutgers Tunnel 45 degree part shorter
Station name "E Bway" right of Rutgers tunnel "
It never quite works. Diagonals always take up more space than it seems. E Broadway requires a lot of horizontal space, you have to move the river a long way to the right to clear it. I have never found a way of clearing Broadway-Lafayette without colliding with Essex Street. Move Essex Street right, and E Broadway has to move right. Everything is joined together here.
"@CI: Station name some pix right
Station like 59 St at 0 degree instead 45
Terminal letters under station name
So the Brighton swap is may be possible."
Brooklyn is pretty-well unmovable without lots of extra bends. The 7th Avenue Line sees to that. Atlantic avenue is fixed at that point. F needs to go to left if Brighton Line station names are to be flipped. From 36 St I could angle the R and N at 45 degrees to left, making use of that empty corner, take the D down vertically to CI, I might then be able to free up enough space so that the station names on the Brighton Line are to its left rather than to its right (the only way I can avoid the Manhattan Bridge crossover) but then I would need a 135 degree bend (59 St) and at least a 90 degree bend (18th Av) on the N.
Bottom line (sorry about the pun) is that the NY Subway is hard to do at this size, and the reason why there are nasties on this map that other map designers don't like, is that other map designers have not managed to do this before.
Streetwise map: unreadable, and bigger than mine.
Style 45 (e.g. in National Geographic NY Guide): station names very abbreviated (e.g. E B'way) and some nasty elongated interchanges. Misleading local-express designations which will not help tourists.
Tauranac: needs three maps. May as well use the official map.
The rest are very large maps
Well, if all went according to plan, at 0558 Greenwich Mean Time today (0058 EST), the first revenue tram on the new LRT system in Nottingham (England) left Phoenix Park for the city centre.
Here are the Rest
Triplex at Bay Parkway
Black and White Pic at St. George
Color Pic of the SIRT Trains at St. Georige
Atlantic Station on the SIR
R-142 Exiting Bedford Park on a nice Summer Day
Q at Beverly Road
Triplex Lined Up at Bay Pakrway
Pic of the Side of Diesel N1
M Train exiting Fresh Pond Road during the Nice Foilage During the Fall
The Crew of the Final Redbird Run
A Try at the Blur Brush Technique with the foilage
Your pal,
Fred
Where would you go,and what would you do if you could go back in time for one week to any time in subway/transit/rail history??
The Rules.
1. You CANNOTinterfere or in any way change ANY part of history-no going back and kicking Luciano off the Malbone St train, or going to Times Square and telling that idiot supervisor to spike that damn switch,or going to Germany and killing Hitler-any attempt to do so will result in the Force that brought you to that time instantly returning you.
2. You will get a digital still camera [suitably disguised for your time selection] with approximately 1G of memory [and appropriate battery power also!], so you are free to snap away!
3. This,of course has to rail/transit oriented...lets keep this one ON topic!
4. You would also get sufficient funds to survive for that week-i.e the equivalent of $500 or so in today's money ..again, that is for you to eat and occasionally sleep..any attempted speculation would be grounds for Return...
yes, this was posted [by me!] a couple of years ago,but since there are many new posters here,thought it might be interesting!
OK..lets run with this!
1. Even though the 6th Ave El is down,every other El is up and running 2nd,3rd,9th aves in Manhattan, and all the BMT Brooklyn Els are still running
2 The 1939 World's Fair is going on-who WOULDN'T want to see that??
2a With the WF, comes the IND WF Line PLUS the IRT WF cars are brand-new,as are the BMT Q units..to get decent pics of the IND WF line alone....
3 Might be able to sneak a game at Ebbetts to see the Dodgers BEFORE they became chic, or at The Stadium to see Joe D at HIS peak..not to mention the Polo Grounds
4 still LOTS of trolleys in Brooklyn/Queens/the Bronx..not to mention PCC cars when they were new....
5 The BMT in all its glory....when Fred's Sea Bits..er BEACH was THE premier line of the BMT..no to mention the Standards and Triplexes when they were still in excellent shape...AND the MULTIs when THEY were new..and if you are patient and lucky enough you MIGHT get to ride on...The Green Hornet....The Zeypher..maybe even the Bluebird....!
6 PERSONALLY, I would ride up the Erie main [from Jersey City NOT Hoboken!] to my hometown..to see Middletown with TWO class 1 RRs running through town..coming back down the O&W to Weehawken..
I havent even mentioned....GG-1s on the Pennsy main...the old black cars on the Hudson Tubes...the REAL Pennsylvania Station..Hudson Terminal... the SIRT BMT-like cars...did I say only a week??? Did I say only 1G in memory??
1939 would be a pretty good year to visit transit-wise....
Start by taking in the all the remaining els (Myrtle Ave, Culver, Polo Grounds shuttle, etc.), ride as many Lov-V's on the IRT, the SMEE's on the Flushing line, D-Types on the BMT Sea Beach, BMT Standards on the Brighton, the new R16's too.
And then the following day, be on the first R16 on the newest subway line extension; the Rockaways to Wavecrest station.
* Brand new blue and white R33s and 36s take me to the New York World's Fair
* The AMF Monorail helps me tour the fair while glass topped Greyhound Fishbowls glide around the grounds
* R32s are ready for service and dressed up stainless steel with deep blue doors and green lighting behind destination signs
* LIRR C420s are brand new and in service hauling parlor cars and coaches up to 40 years old
* BMT Standards, Q cars, Multis, R11s are all in service
* Erie still runs daily to Chicago out of Jersey City (usually behind a pair of RS3s)
* LIRR provides thru service from Jamaica to the North Fork
* New York Central provides thru service from GCT to Chatham, NY with P1s or P2s on the third rail and RS3s on the diesel portion of the line
* The Culver Shuttle is still rumbling along
* R1-9s make up the main stay of IND service along with 400 R10s mostly on the A train - all with caine or cushion seats
* EP5s still haul commuters on the New Haven
* GG1s hold down the Northeast Corridor
* New York Central runs E8s on their long distance trains with sleeper cars, parlor cars, diners and observation cars - GPs and RS3s are still in service on diesel hauled commuter trains
* LIRR offers special service to Shelter Island via Road 'n Rail bus
* Aqueduct specials depart lower level of 42nd street for the "Big A"
* Putnam division still sees freight between Mahopac and Brewster usually RS3s and a couple of box cars
* Third Ave El in the Bronx is still running 1939 vintage World's Fair cars
* Private bus lines all over the metro area are still in service with a variety of equipment and in company colors
I hope people will let me know if the route I am taking would have been available at this time. I also presume you are granting us immunity from the myriad dieseses present at the time of our trip.
Vince
I'm sure that the trip would be fun!
I walked that IND spur route along the south lake, Flushing Meadow north of the Jamaica Yard, this weekend, to try to picture it without the Van Wyk expressway. Man, a subway spur was sure a better use of a wetlands than a six-lane freeway.
I'd also ride the New York Central, Pennsylvania Railroad and the New Haven Railroad for some short trips. Railfanning in New Haven would be fun as they were simultaneously running electric, diesel and steam locomotives.
I guess my biggest reason for picking that era is that it was a time when railroads were revered by the general public and before the interstates were built. Plus, it was before I was born, so I wouldn't risk running into myself.
You're pal,
Fred
As to when I would go, I'm stuck between 1904, 1939, and 1964: The opening of the IRT World's Fair and the two subways. Wait...I've got that mixed up...The two World's Fairs (one being when Redbirds weren't red (with the exception of the R29, R33, and R36 Mainline cars) and the opening of the IRT subway. Maybe I'll go to 1964, get some pics of my namesake subway car in her splendid blue livery, then go up and do some old-fashioned railfanning. If I was allowed to bring a friend, I would.
As the depression was at its peak, prices were low and $500 would go very far.
-Julian
Or go back to when he was a young man and teach him to drive. Maybe if he actually knew how to drive, he would have realized that cars aren't necessarily the be-all and end-all of transportation.
I heard on the 10o'clock news that if we repeal the bullet train, Jeb will give up a Light Rail system. But why can't I find that in print anywhere?
Emergency Brake
1. Lift cover
2. Alarm will sound
3. Pull cord
Ride a R46 sometime and you'll see for yourself.
Sunday night I saw an R46 at 4th Avenue with "Not In Service" in a grey bullet on the south car. Can't remember the car # though.
I remember Eric B mentioning a R46 or two at Jamaica that has an alternate set of rollsigns which include the "Not In Service" reading in a gray bullet.
ADA sign at Prospect Park/Brighton Line
Some of our Upper West Side Subtalkers noted there are some old braille signs that are in dire need to be changed, like the B on the upper level, and the C on the lower level at 145th Street.
The set standard does not issue service advisories in braille so why should the sign be changed when its essence is correct in getting someone to Brighton Beach?
Next DUH today: That confusing sign at 86th St/Lex on the Downtown express platform.
So this is my idea of night service using the lines as they run today:
(I try to run at night same number of lines in Manhattan as today)
A Euclid-Lefferts (current night shuttle)
B Norwood-Prospekt Park
C Inwood-Far Rockaway
D no service
E Queens Pl-WTC
F Queensbridge-Coney Island
G Jamaica Center-Smith
J Jamaica Center-Myrtle
L 8 Av-Canarsie
M Metropolitain-Coney Island
N 59-Coney Island
Q Canal-Coney Island
R 179-95
S Howard Beach-Rockaway Park
S Franklin-Prospekt Park
W Astoria-Whitehall
1 Van Cortland Park-South Ferry
2 241-Flatbush
3 Atlantic-New Lots
4 Woodlawn-Atlantic
5 Dyre-180
6 Pelham Bay Park-Brooklyn Bridge
7 Times Square-Main
As you can see some branches get a worse service:
J and New Lots branch wouldn't have direct Manhattan access any more.
So i think some lines should swap their terminals to allow a better
service using my "rules":
2/3 Brooklyn terminal swap
J/Z to Brooklyn instead of the M
4/5 swap is not neccessary (=>4 to Bowling Green, 6 to Flatbush)
In seriousness, there are restrooms across the street at the Walter Rand Transportaion Center [in the bus terminal], and there is restrooms at Trenton Station [again across the street at the train station, next to Roy Rogers]. You might be lucky to find a loo [British for bathroom] at Hamilton Ave [across the street at the Robeling Market], but anyplace else, you're out of luck [unless you are a man and can find a discreet place to whip it out and let go. If you have to crap, or if you are a woman, you're sh*t out of luck]
Basically, you have to make sure you go before you get on the trolley.
The date will be Saturday, June 5th
Time: Tentatively 9:00 am
Place: We will start at Union Station (same location as the last Field Trip)
Here's the scoop---railfans will be grouped in two's or three's (each team will have a "local" railfan so no team will be without a representative from the DC Area. In essence, it will be a scavenger/treasure hunt of sorts---Clues will be given out at the beginning, which will lead to another station, where they'll get their next clue, and so on until the first team arrives at the final station---will win bragging rights to being "Top Banana" of the Metro--here's a little insight on the rules, all clue locations will be at an entrance pylon of a rail station, this is where you will fine John or I, you will meet both of us at Union Station at 9:00 so you know what we look like, you can go from station to station via rail AND/OR Bus (you can't walk between closely placed stations i.e. Metro Ctr & Gallery Place).
John Cambron has graciously offered to put together a prize package that includes, among other things, wall maps and other collectibles---I will probably dig into my collection and donate into the prize package also.
As for an end time, I would think in the 7:00 to 8:00 pm range--this depends upon the AMTRAK schedule for those riding in for the day...we will work around the schedule...
Anyhow, we DO need to have a head-count ahead of time so we can try to make up the teams ahead of time (to save time on race day).
Please e-mail me, Your Name, Your Subtalk Handle, Whether you have a strong knowledge of DC or need to be paired with one....
Also, if there are any suggestions, feel free to post them---who knows, this could be the first of many "hunts" on systems....
Mark
Thanks,
Mark
That'd be funny
Mark
Mark
Grand Central Station, NYC, March 24 & 25
MIT, Cambridge (Boston), March 29 & 30
Here at MIT (that's where I work full-time), it will be on the "Grand Junction" siding just west of Massachusetts Avenue, where the Circus Train lays up. I'll host a Boston-area SubTalk Field Trip to visit the train... scheduling details as we get closer to the event.
There currently is no "Grand Central Station" in NYC. Todd, I think you just got too caught up in the moment to notice Siemens' stupid mistake.
Grand Central Terminal is the landmarked building that rises above street level and serves Metro-North trains.
Grand Central station is the IRT station complex underneath 42nd st/Lexington Ave and a portion of Grand Central Terminal.
Grand Central Station,
212-330-5829,
450 Lexington Ave ,
New York, NY 10017
Call them, they answer the phone as " Grand Central" and can answer all sorts of questions about packing requirements and rates for the US Postal Service. After all, the only Grand Central Station that has existed in New York City (with one 14-year exception) is the branch of the Post Office located next to Grand Central Terminal.
The place that the trains go to on 42 St was originally named Grand Central Depot. During a 1900 addition and rehab project, the name was changed to Grand central Station. Fourteen years later, when the current building was opened, it became Grand Central Terminal. At that time, the company that is now known as Siemens was still making light bulbs and telephone/telegraph equipment in Germany and the surrounding area - they had no reason to know of (or care about) what the train terminal in NYC was called.
Therefore, when, in 2003, a company bringing a train to New York City says "Grand Central Station", there is only place they could mean - since I'm pretty sure they don't intend on putting the silly thing in the Post Office. If they want people to take them seriously, the least they can do is actually identify the place they mean (for the record, Bombardier lost it in Toronto in 1999. During the APTA convention/rodeo, they place hundreds of ads on the TTC highlighting their trains worldwide. The NYC shot was of the 110A/B on the curve at Smith/9 Sts - with the curve going the wrong way and Manhattan to the left of the trains).
http://www.awc-corp.com/Seminar/exider.htm
Is this open to the general public and do you have to register??
CBTLR works for me.
I was browsing through some pictures and it is coupled many times to som R-40 slants...
can someone explain??
Redbirds Forever
Chris
Robert
"I've had companies choose the business location and measure how close to the rail line we'll be so they can attract employees and have them take public transportation to work," Lucas said. "We've had companies locate on Route 130 knowing that the county is going to do a shuttle bus to light-rail stations."
Bob Haines, a real estate agent in Burlington City, is equally enthused.
"I think it's going to be a big story, maybe not overnight," Haines said.
He said homebuyers in the Burlingtons and Beverly City have been interested in the light rail, including a man who plans to use the line to commute into Newark by connecting with the Northeast Corridor line in Trenton.
"We can't say it's overwhelming, but it's there," Haines said.
Rest here
Now why can't I find any official redevelopment authority websites?
That's the _Upper_ West Side. The West Side below 59th St has at least four four-track lines, plus the PATH.
NY1 was referring to the Regional Plan Association's paper outlining transportation needs and options for the Javits/Hudson Yards area. -> http://www.rpa.org/
Rather, NY1 was citing a new report by the Regional Plan Association that says precisely the opposite. The RPA believes that the #7 extension will put unacceptable stress on the system unless the SAS is built at the same time.
The RPA also believes that the proposed West Side development will create more mass transit needs than the #7 alone can handle, and it proposed building the 2nd Hudson River tunnel, to accommodate more commuters from NJ.
avid
Dunno ... an extension of the 7 might work even without the SAS.
I understand what you mean. Keep in mind, however, that a 7 extension to Javits is likely to be much cheaper than even the Second Avenue Stubway. What if there's enough money for the 7 extension, but not enough (and no reasonable prospects for getting more) for the SAS?
Some people doubt whether a TIF could pay for such an expensive project, but the one sure thing is that you can't use a TIF on the west side to pay for the SAS. So, it's not an 'either/or' proposition. Both projects have dubious funding prospects, but canceling one doesn't make the other more likely.
Jersey City's LRT, where it mixes with street traffic, is pathetic.
BTW, don't use SF's "Market Street" as an example. Market is a wider street. Market has both Muni Metro and BART running below doing the "real" work.
#3 West End Jeff
Here we go!
I bet you have to log in so here:
COMMENTARY: MIKE THOMAS
Tampa-Orlando route would be ideal test for rail
Mike Thomas
March 9, 2004
What would you least like to do?
A) Bang on your thumb with a ball-peen hammer for three hours.
B) Have someone use alligator clips to keep your eyelids open and then force you to watch replays of all the Orlando mayoral debates.
C) Get in a car at 7 a.m. Monday and drive to Tampa on Interstate 4.
If the answer isn't C yet, it will be soon. The I-4 corridor is becoming a congested, 90-mile-long city.
The only transportation link between the Gulf Coast and Central Florida, two of the nation's fastest-growing regions, is imploding.
In the future, driving to Tampa from Orlando will be stop and go all the way. It will be like driving from Sanford to downtown Orlando during rush hour.
I'm not an economist, but certainly, this cannot be a good thing given that our economy depends on people coming here.
So with that backdrop, let us look at the proposed high-speed-rail amendment voters approved in 2000.
The first segment would connect Tampa and Orlando.
Jeb Bush wants to put it back on the ballot and repeal it. He thinks we were bad children in the voting booth and that we will change our minds once we understand the consequences of our actions.
We are the Beaver.
He is Ward Cleaver.
Now, Beav, I know you mean well, but we can't pay for this.
But gee, Dad, it sounds really keen, and Eddie Haskell says it will work.
To lead the repeal effort, Jeb enlisted the perennial not-ready-for-prime-time Republican, Chief Financial Officer Tom Gallagher.
Gallagher has no history of caring about trains that I can find. But this does present an opportunity for him to suck up to Jeb and get out on the campaign trail early. He wants Bush's job in 2006 and would oppose chocolate-chip cookies to get it.
As for Bush, he is quite sincere in his opposition, if not somewhat shortsighted and delusional. He wrote lawmakers that the train would get people from Tampa to Orlando only 16 minutes faster than they could make it by car during rush hour.
That certainly proves one thing. Bush has never made the drive.
It is interesting that his own choice to head the Florida High Speed Rail Authority, former Republican legislator Fred Dudley, sure seems on board for the train even if he won't specifically endorse it. Dudley calls the repeal drive premature.
It is almost impossible to argue the merits of the train because it is a completely theoretical exercise. You can calculate how many people go from Point A to Point B in a given year, and how many of them might take a train.
But the proof is in the line at the ticket counter. The only way to get the final answer is to build the train.
So complete the route between Tampa and Orlando. Use that to see how many people would ride the train. Use it to gauge the technical and legal difficulties of running a rail to Miami.
Maybe it would pay for itself by opening a trade route between Tampa and Orlando, between our theme parks, businesses, cultural centers, festivals and restaurants.
This helps integrate two economies that now are separate.
It would become a trade route that enriches everybody and makes both regions better places to be. If it works and serves as a blueprint for the state, the impact could be revolutionary.
Mike Thomas can be reached at 407-420-5525
or mthomas@orlandosentinel.com.
Copyright © 2004, Orlando Sentinel | Get home delivery - up to 50% off
Michael
Washington, DC
When would CAF cars start operating on the Red Line?
OTOH, 10-12 years ago, they did run 2-car trains on the Blue Line during the late evening. I was seeing someone at the time who lived down by Van Dorn and often we'd take the train back there. Those trains were seldom more than half-full, even on Fridays or Saturdays (the system didn't stay open late on weekends back then so no one wanting to party late in DC had any option but to go by car). I rarely get out that way on Metro these days, but I'd venture a guess that weeknight ridership isn't all that much higher than a decade ago, so 2 car trains wouldn't be a big issue. Ditto for Orange, Yellow, and Green.
Sure the up front capitol costs are going to be more. But the operating costs will be less as there will not be the costs of a separate support infrastructure to operate and maintain.
Shoot they could even design and build a dual mode rail car that could run in the existing system and under over head catenary.
John
Fortunately, she did not end up a 12-9. She went up to the booth, and the station agent asked which side it was on, then told her to go down and keep an eye on it until somone came along.
Within 30 minutes, two TA workers came along from the same direction (having presumably set up a flashing latern at the station before to warn approaching trains). They put on orange vests, and while one of then looked out for the train, the other hopped down, picked it up, and gave it back to my wife.
The lesson is, of course, don't go on the tracks without the warning latern, the vest, the flagman, and a warning passed from the booth over the radio. But if someone knocks you down there, lay in the trench and the an approaching train pass over rather than get hit.
Umm... no
Thats almost as bad as just standing there... your still likely to get hit
Either go into a cutout NOT marked with No Clearance signs, or if in a station, or if the train is going slow, RUN!!!
If you can find a niche, great, but I don't see to many good ones in stations. In my station, the entire wall is a no clearance area.
Well, perhaps not having done it myself, I shouldn't be so definitive. But I've heard from multiple sources that's why the trench is there. One example is in "Under the Sidewalks of New York," 1988 edition, page 103. I've heard it elsewhere.
Elias
If you lie flat in the trench you will get a soiled shirt
and a #$%#$ing body odor NO ONE Mystical will wanna touch. That is a fact.
I always thought the better option, if you had the time, was to inhabit the space under the platform, scrunched against the wall as hard as possible with all extremities tucked in (so you'll clear the shoe which may jut out from the train). That is, if there is such a space (there is at every place I've bothered to look, and in most cases there's at least as much clearance as in the drainage trench), and the 3rd rail isn't there (which again, is almost always true, and if it is that's probably because there's a platform on both sides of the track so you just go to the other side).
He's too busy crying over McDonald's decision to discontinue Super Size fries.
A. I'm not.
B. He's got bigger problems than worring about dropping his blackberry on the tracks.
C. That photo can't be real, can it?
If it is possible, I will try to submit my plan, as it'd be cheaper to build than the previously proposed system of people movers, a monorail, or others.
Without an exlusive, grade separated ROW, that's all BRT is. With an exclusive, grade separated ROW and stations, it can be much more.
Kind of makes you think about how many grade-separated highway lanes Nassau has for mixed traffic, or just for autos, but not for buses. A busway can carry an enormous number of people very quickly, if buses can pull off it while making stops.
But if you are going to make that kind of investment, what does everyone think of my idea of two-tracking the West Hempstead Branch, tying it back to the Hempstead Branch then around the area of Roosevelt Field, Roosevelt Raceway, the Colesium, etc. up the main line and perhaps the Oyster Bay Branch? In addition to trains to NYC, light rail service could be provide for those transferring from the Main Line and Bablyon Branch to a satellite city there.
wayne
Most of the WH branch is so residential I can't think there'd be any ridership at all. When was the last time anyone had a reason to go to Westwood, or Hempstead Gardens?
wayne
CG
The real goal would to serve a major "Downtown" that does not yet exist, as opposed to existing little commercial centers, by allowing those transferring from both major branches of the LIRR to get to it quickly.
Hempstead-CLP-Clinton Rd-Stewart Av-RFM-Fortunoff-Source-Merrick Av
Mineola-Stewart Av-Clinton Rd-Quentin Roosevelt BLVD-Mitchell Field-Hofstra-Nassau Collesium-NCC-Selfridge Av-Quentin Roosevelt BLVD-Clinton Rd-Stewart Av-Mineola
3 lines, one full NS route, and then 2 routes to serve the nassau hub with multiple connections
www.transitalk.info
Click Here for Direct Link To MTA Subway Photos
Enjoy!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.info
Great Stuff, as always!
ugh...
and my feeble attempt at a picture from a Hippo N train on the bridge
Your pal,
Fred
Nice pics and glad you took some time out to enjoy the dash and the Brighton line.
How does one operate a subway train? I know it is a lot more complicated than turning the master controller to accelerate/decelerate and turning the brake handle to apply the brakes, stopping the train more rapidly.
Thanks,
Julian
CAN'T HAVE THAT! Our lips are sealed therefore ...
Take a bow!
*bows* Thank ya, thank ya!
Chuck Greene
Come to a stop at the marker - bump the controller one notch to officially overshoot, three blasts of the horn, thunk-thunk on the reverser, one point of power, stop again. Not approved for revenue moves, done in the yahds every now and then.
From "Pelham 1-2-3," "I didn't know these things could go in reverse." "Now you know." :)
So make that TWO directions, more if you wanna put it on the ground.
Nice.
The new trains got it easy, brakes and throttle all in one neat little handle.
The biggest deal is knowing your brakes, your line pressures and all of that, followed by some of the mechinical stuff. You gotta know what the handle is doing when you move it. Finally, and the real bigie (right after the brakes) is the RULES of the Railroad! Knowing the tracks, the speeds the restrictions, the rails and the signals.
Maiking it go, is like riding a bicycle, running it is closer to a 747.
Elias
As Todd Glickman mentioned you can learn to a certain extent by joining a trolley museum and becoming an operator. Another way is to take the test for Train Operator in NYC (or the neartest city to you that has a subway) and getting a high score, getting hired and then getting trained.
Master Controller-controller train operation, including speed,and movement (brakes as well on R44/46)
Reverser-selects direction (Foward, Neutral, Reverse) and power
Air Valve-controls brakes
Do what Todd Glickman said and visit a local trolley museum, they'll be happy to teach you how to operate a train.
28Feb2004 MOD Trip--77th St and 95th St on R Line
28Feb2004 MOD Trip--Ninth Av
28Feb2004 MOD Trip--Pictures of the interior of the various cars
28Feb2004 MOD Trip--CIY
28Feb2004 MOD Trip--Pictures taken at or near Brighton Beach Station
28Feb2004 MOD Trip--Ads in Car 401
28Feb2004 MOD Trip--Pictures taken at Church Av (Brighton Line)
28Feb2004 MOD Trip--Pictures at 205th St
28Feb2004 MOD Trip--Pictures taken at Fordham Rd (IND)
28Feb2004 MOD Trip--Miscellaneous Pictures
29Feb2004 MOD Trip--Pictures taken at 59th St-CC before the start of the trip
29Feb2004 Mod Trip--Pictures taken at Church Av (Brighton Line)
29Feb2004 MOD Trip--Prospect Park and Franklin Shuttle Pictures
29Feb2004 MOD Trip--Pictures at or near CIY
29Feb2004 MOD Trip--Pictures taken at 7th Av (Culver Line)
29Feb2004 MOD Trip--Pictures taken at 18th Av (Culver Line)
29Feb2004 MOD Trip--Shots inside the various cars
29Feb2004 MOD Trip Pictures--Pictures taken at Brighton Beach
29Feb2004 MOD Trip--Pictures taken at 125th St (8th Av)
29Feb2004 MOD Trip--Miscellaneous Pictures
Koi
-Chris
Here's a good site listing design criteria.
Your pal,
Fred
On most elevated lines, you can clearly see wedges of wood placed between the outer rail and the ties on a curve to raise it higher than the inner rail.
Next time you're driving on a curvy road (for example, the Northern State Pkwy), take note of how the road is banked on the curves. It's the same principle.
Extreme examples of banking or superelevations in curves,
NASCAR !
Daytona International Speedway
Talladega Superspeedway
John
Atlantic Pic 2
Atlantic Pic 3
Atlantic Pic 4
Atlantic Pic 5
Atlantic Pic 6
As for the photos themselves, I like them very much, and I loved the b/w look to highlight the current condition of the station. :-)
BTW, why is this station still open? It's not that long a walk to Tottenville from the station, and the S74 runs right behind it on Arthur Kill Road.
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
-Dave
When the car doors open on the R-62/R-62A's, two red door lights illuminate on the exterior of the car for each set of doors. On one of the middle sets of doors, there are two exterior amber lights on each side. They usually don't illuminate when the car doors open. Does anyone know what the amber lights mean? Thanks....
David
David
-Chris(not the troll!!)
While boarding an uptown 6th Av. express train at W 4th St., I noticed green fixture holding signal lights for this train. For the one I saw the middle bulb was not lit. Is there a reason why this station has green holding lights, not orange? Thanks...
Can the starting/holding signal fixture illuminate green or yellow lights at any given time? I jumped on an uptown "B" express train at W. 4th St., where the lights were green. Earlier in the day I jumped on a Manhattan bound "F" train at 179th St., where the lights were yellow.
Thanks...
Here is a pic:
http://www.transitgallery.com/data/66f041e16a60928b05a7e228a89c3799/218_p8791.jpg
Watch out for the "Crater of Death: Revisited!"
It has platforms to the express tracks, meaning Sea Beach.
Ballasted track at an express platform can only be King Highway Brighton.
It's Kings Highway on the Brighton. It doesn't look as bad as you decribe it but still dangerous.
- Problem Resolvers Staff.
While I was there, I saw the new HEETS installed but arent open yet.
Tho, in the eyes of Salaam and myself, we could VERY WELL be looking at the
TA's newest acquisition piece---- the Rmadillo Scrapper.
1 can HOPE.
I didn't know that they were expecting blizzards in the tunnels, but there you have it.
Elias
These pictures illustrate that they can safely negotiate straight track. Unfortunately, one of them derailed during a curve test at 239th Street Yard hours later.
THANK YOU for the details and confirmation! I really appreciate it!
Snow is ON THE GROUND.... not in the bumper blocks...
LOL! I think the brush might be on a movable arm that goes up and down.
You get a hot meal. The menu varies, beef, chicken, fish, sandwich, etc.
You get free beverages (including beer, wine). You get a less crowded car (~45 seats vs. ~80). But if the car is crowded, you may be "stuck" in a four-seater [2-table-2], and perhaps riding backwards.
And there's only one lav in the car, so if it's busy, you have to wait (as opposed to business class, where some cars have two, and you can also walk to another car). The attendants aren't keen about having you pass through the kitchen to business class.
Try it once, then you probably will say, "been there, done that, business class is fine."
In a related story, I was harassed today by an MTA employee. It was about taking photos. He said that it was illegal unless you had a permit and supervision. I tried to show him the rules from the website but he said he didn't care about my rules and that he knew the rules. He also refused to give me his badge number. His actions toward me were very close to threatening. I will be reporting this to the station superintendent.
Unfortunely, that trick won't work in a station as deep as 34th st.
:)
No, what sould bail you out is if you are in a car with C (Consulate) or D (Dimplomat) plates.
I was just standing around the Dekalb Station and I notice a police officer walking through the station.. He must have seen me through a camera lense or something.. and notice that I have been waiting at the station for a long period of time. I was just observing the train traffic.
Sometime as simple as waiting at a train station in new york would bring some type of suspicion.. and I pray that I don't have to deal with this type of treatment anywhere else.. People are just so paranoid today. And it makes you feel that you are been watch by uncle sam 24 hours a day.
Oh, by the way! I was on the "B" Wednesday and when we got on the Bridge, We were right beside the "Q".. It was wonderful! and such a beautiful experience to be along side the "Q" train going across the bridge at a rapid rate. But unfortunately, a train must of been in front of the "Q" because it slowed down. Well.. later I found out, it was an "N" Broadway Express.. Of course it was no match for the "B" but it was going pretty rapidly when we got to the Dekalb Station.
I was so amazed, I said ... WOW! Everyone looked at me, and I was embarassed, but that must have been one of my best transit experience.
I was wondering.. HOW THE HELL DID WE GET ON OTHERSIDE WITHOUT CROSSING INFRONT OF THE "N" which on the other side of that bridge? I WAS SO SHOCK! That must have taken them forever to build!
Maybe there's 4 or 5 levels.. and we must have dropped down a single level to North Bound "SOUTH Bridge traffic to go through. I need help.. I'm really interested in knowing how this DEKALB connection is configured. I know about the West fourth street interconnection.. but this one really cause me to almost jump out of my skin.
In short, I have to say, the transportation authority really put that together.. It is so weird that I can't stop talking about it. Maybe I should have wrote this in another thread, but I just had to get this off my chest.
Thanks guys and sorry to hear our subtalker has been harrassed.
W Broadway Local
PS: Coming back home I got me an "N" Broadway Line.. (NOT LINE - EXPRESS hehehhehe!) IT WAS THE BOMB! I especially love how the "N" Broadway Express Took that curve after Canal Street.. When did you ever witness an N train taking a curve like that on the local tracks? Now I can see why Fred doesn't like the route heading towards lower manhattan. It just pittiful how slow it negoiates those curves. By the way, I never really rode the "N" in the 80's.
One thing you should know (if you don't know already) the TA does not like any pictures/video that would show them in a bad light (regardless of 1050.9). A smoking train certainly fits that description. They can't prevent or harrass the news media because they have permits and are usually followed around by a TA supervisor. But anyone not part of the news media or w/o a permit is fair game.
This has happened many times in the past. I recall many years ago a woman took some photos of a hazardous condition (hanging pipes if memory serves) at 96th/Broadway. She was arrested. It made the evening news. The pictures were in every major NYC newspaper.
The TA looked like idiots (as if they never did). The charges were dropped.
So how does that explain my being harassed?
Peace,
ANDEE
And in case you want to say that "the law was changed" check the Rules and Regulations (section 1050.9)on the MTA site:
http://www.mta.info/nyct/rules/rules.htm#restricted
1. No ancillary equipment (tripods, etc)
2. No flashes
3. You cannot enter prohibited areas to photograph
That's it. You do NOT need a permit, or permission from any MTA employee. I wish they MTA would stop instructing it's employees to enforce a non-existant law. I'm still convinced that the TA employees who keep giving Subtalk photographers a hard time do it only because they receive some pleasure busting balls.
But you do realize that you had no buisness taking pictures there(assuming you was harrased at Herald Square. If it was another place, I apoligize).
All I realize is that the above statement is false. I've also allowed ieSpell to correct your three spelling mistakes.
With FREE software available like ieSpell, why should SubTalk posts contain so many spelling errors?
I say OFF with Conan the Grammarian's head. Obsessions come in many forms. For the fastidious, I recommend lunch at a landfill. Or in other words, Mr. Natural says "don't take life so seriously, and BEWARE of those who do." Word. Wapner. Judge Wapner. Definitely definitely Judge Wapner. Uhoh ... :)
Selkirk goes into my killfile!!!!!
I can't believe you split an infinitive??????!!!!!!
Now my whole day is ruined!!!!!LOL
Dewd ... if this is your biggest problem, be grateful. I'm willing to read posts that have bade speling in their because I'm wiling to strech a litle becuze some pipple hav grate stohries to tel. And all this nonsense does more than chase away those people who may not have a PHD in speling but have a doctorate in LIFE ... Wal*Mart's open, suggest purchasing one. :(
In plain english. Your highbrow attitude really sucks.
Peace,
ANDEE
Listen here jewboy why don't you go to your palace tomorrow night and let me know how Sabbath is. While you're at it why don't you go fucking wait in your lobby for someone to go press a god damn button to bring you to your floor. Someone should really shove a good bi-product hot dog down your throat and maybe that'll shine the light down onto your yarmulke-covered head. That guy on the M60? I wish he fucking decked YOUR brains out instead of your little sidekick and instead of 10% off from birth, he should cut off the other 90%. Better yet, you should probably go take a trip down to Rockefeller Center and join your brothers (no girls seem to be working there) in selling your cheap ass FAKE JEWlery. 14karot gold? My ass, more like 1cent. Give my regards to Yankel, Shlomo, Mr. Hanukov, Moishe, Abraham, and all your little buddies. Bitch.
Da Hui
Now this is what you call a stream-of-consciousness rant!
Yeah, but he's been getting it out little by little in the AOL Instant Messenger SubTalk Chats we have every night. He has a screen name that is "BrianWDaCheapJew." He (the self-hating Jew)and his anti-Semitic friends have written things such as this:
Sci Guy 6 5 8 6 (9:56:52 PM): JJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJEW UNNIT
Sci Guy 6 5 8 6 (9:57:25 PM): mazel tov
BrianWDaCheapJew (9:57:29 PM): Ahoy Hoy!
Sci Guy 6 5 8 6 (9:57:53 PM): anthony
Sci Guy 6 5 8 6 (9:58:00 PM): were gonna see Jew Unit perform
BrianWDaCheapJew (9:58:26 PM): So You're Aware R40 Railfan: Boris, Yankel, and Mr. Leibowitz
BrianWDaCheapJew (9:58:26 PM): Will Be Guest Starring From J-Unit (Challah back!) On Our Show
R33WF 9311 has entered the room.
BrianWDaCheapJew (9:59:53 PM): For Future Reference: If You're Going To Call Me A Bitch, Cheap Bitch Is Preferred
R33WF 9311 (10:00:13 PM): what about cheap beeyatch
R33WF 9311 (10:00:47 PM): why pay $40 for a march of dimes trip, mr "cheapjew"? when u can just be chasing me as i throw a bunch of dimes at you!
R33WF 9311 (10:00:54 PM): as they will be MARCHING ;-)
Sci Guy 6 5 8 6 (10:01:19 PM): will he be chasing u or the dimes?
R33WF 9311 (10:01:24 PM): maybe both
R33WF 9311 (10:01:32 PM): ill wear my huaraches...theyre good running shoes
BrianWDaCheapJew (10:01:48 PM): I'll Wear My Tassles For Some Extra Acceleration
R33WF 9311 (10:02:27 PM): arent u gonna be wearing ur special aerodynamic yamulke?
R33WF 9311 (10:02:40 PM): that is specially contoured to provide optimal running speed?
I dunno, he seems to have some kind of an obsession with me and Jews. I think it is of the unhealthy type. Are there any child psychologists in the house?
(I appologize for any misspelled words)
:)
How the fuck dare you call me anti semetic. I would say something extremely insensitive to Jews just to piss you off, but that would be disrespectful to the jews whom I call my friend. So as of now, the only thing I can say that won't insite a all out racial/religious flamage war, is rot in hell you hypocrite.
Sci Guy 6 5 8 6 (9:56:52 PM): JJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJEW UNNIT
Sci Guy 6 5 8 6 (9:57:25 PM): mazel tov
BrianWDaCheapJew (9:57:29 PM): Ahoy Hoy!
Sci Guy 6 5 8 6 (9:57:53 PM): anthony
Sci Guy 6 5 8 6 (9:58:00 PM): were gonna see Jew Unit perform
BrianWDaCheapJew (9:58:26 PM): So You're Aware R40 Railfan: Boris, Yankel, and Mr. Leibowitz
BrianWDaCheapJew (9:58:26 PM): Will Be Guest Starring From J-Unit (Challah back!) On Our Show
R33WF 9311 has entered the room.
BrianWDaCheapJew (9:59:53 PM): For Future Reference: If You're Going To Call Me A Bitch, Cheap Bitch Is Preferred
R33WF 9311 (10:00:13 PM): what about cheap beeyatch
R33WF 9311 (10:00:47 PM): why pay $40 for a march of dimes trip, mr "cheapjew"? when u can just be chasing me as i throw a bunch of dimes at you!
R33WF 9311 (10:00:54 PM): as they will be MARCHING ;-)
Sci Guy 6 5 8 6 (10:01:19 PM): will he be chasing u or the dimes?
R33WF 9311 (10:01:24 PM): maybe both
R33WF 9311 (10:01:32 PM): ill wear my huaraches...theyre good running shoes
BrianWDaCheapJew (10:01:48 PM): I'll Wear My Tassles For Some Extra Acceleration
R33WF 9311 (10:02:27 PM): arent u gonna be wearing ur special aerodynamic yamulke?
R33WF 9311 (10:02:40 PM): that is specially contoured to provide optimal running speed?
I dunno, he seems to have some kind of an obsession with me and Jews. I think it is of the unhealthy type. Are there any child psychologists in the house?
So who are his anti semetic friends?
I happen to notice that you pick that particular chat to post on the internet, despite the other appearances of him, and I happen to notice my name in there, and it was suprising that a few hours before I seen that post I thought you had something against me. Apparently I was right. You do have something against me, and I was wrong to think otherwise. Furthermore, I still believe you were violated of your rights, and I still think you had no buisness taking pics when there was smoke there.
He doesn't have any anti semetic friends.
Chap11ChooChoo (1:40:12 AM): Sci Guy 6 5 8 6 (10:36:18 PM): nah, ill probably try to stop the train with my body to save the penny
Sci Guy 6 5 8 6 (1:40:28 AM): that wasnt condesending to you
Sci Guy 6 5 8 6 (1:40:43 AM): im assuming its somethig you took out of contex
Sci Guy 6 5 8 6 (1:40:51 AM): COMPLETELY out of contex
Chap11ChooChoo (1:40:51 AM): i said conduct unbecoming of a decent human being
Sci Guy 6 5 8 6 (1:40:58 AM): that was a joke
Chap11ChooChoo (1:41:03 AM): you were participating in Mark W's making fun of me and Jews
Chap11ChooChoo (1:41:12 AM): and i totally wil lnot stand for that
Chap11ChooChoo (1:41:31 AM): Sci Guy 6 5 8 6 (10:37:05 PM): hey, i may not survive
MuseumCar (10:37:06 PM): oy vey
TicoCG47 (10:37:09 PM): they got a prayer for it...
MuseumCar (10:37:12 PM): come again
MuseumCar (10:37:13 PM): LOL
mArK b b0rEd (10:37:15 PM): wtf?
Sci Guy 6 5 8 6 (10:37:18 PM): but ill save the penny
Sci Guy 6 5 8 6 (1:41:38 AM): i admit i was participating, but i didnt say anything offensive
Chap11ChooChoo (1:42:02 AM): R40 Railfan (10:38:38 PM): then can I keep up all night ?
Drivin Genuis (10:38:39 PM): its getting good
Sci Guy 6 5 8 6 (10:39:02 PM): lmao
mArK b b0rEd (10:39:04 PM): keep it up all night?
mArK b b0rEd (10:39:06 PM): hmm
Boliqua2 (10:39:11 PM): LMAO
Sci Guy 6 5 8 6 (10:39:15 PM): im sure brian would like that
Chap11ChooChoo (1:42:26 AM): BrianWDaCheapJew (10:39:40 PM): I Cannot Swallow Because It Is Not Kosher Kum
R40 Railfan (10:39:44 PM): LMAO
Sci Guy 6 5 8 6 (10:39:44 PM): lol
Sci Guy 6 5 8 6 (1:42:37 AM): ok stop
Sci Guy 6 5 8 6 (1:42:49 AM): the first one was a joke. i wasnt making fun of anyone
Sci Guy 6 5 8 6 (1:42:55 AM): the second one, i apoligize for
Sci Guy 6 5 8 6 (1:43:03 AM): the third one, WAY out of contex
Sci Guy 6 5 8 6 (1:43:13 AM): i laughed at it because it was funny
Sci Guy 6 5 8 6 (1:44:08 AM): keep goin
Sci Guy 6 5 8 6 (1:45:25 AM): second thought
Sci Guy 6 5 8 6 (1:45:34 AM): ill talk about this tomorrow
Sci Guy 6 5 8 6 (1:46:03 AM): goodnight
Chap11ChooChoo (1:46:09 AM): ok
You stated that I was "unbecoming of a decent human being" because I laughed at Brian Da Cheap Jews. Well you kow what, youre not so good and holy yourself. Like in the chat, when you stated that its not okay for everyone to make fun at Brian Gerber but its okay for people to make fun of Ozvaldo Zamora, because of Ozzy's way of acting as a MTA employee. Well you know what, I take a shitload of offense to that being that Ozzy is a nice guy, and a very good friend. I know it, and everyone who hung out with ozzy knows that hes a nice guy, so how dare you say that shit about my friend, then have the nerve to call me unbecoming of a decent human being.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
subtalk=673367
Sci Guy 6 5 8 6 (12:32:38 AM): so im anti semetic brian?
Sci Guy 6 5 8 6 (12:34:26 AM): iight
Sci Guy 6 5 8 6 (12:34:27 AM): iight
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Session concluded at 12:34:29 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chap11ChooChoo (12:34:32 AM): oh
Chap11ChooChoo (12:35:34 AM): from wht you've written
Chap11ChooChoo (12:36:46 AM): if you aren't then don't participate in the anti-semitic parts of the chats
Sci Guy 6 5 8 6 (12:37:31 AM): this conversation was over shortly after the second line in the chat
Chap11ChooChoo (12:37:50 AM): huh?
Dont bother IM'ing me again. And if you ever see me on a MOD trip, a SMEE trip, or any other trip, dont bother me.
Well said! Too many posters here give certain people, Ozzy in this case, a very bad rap. That's why I choose not to meet many folks for trips and such and I basically keep a low profile.
Peace,
ANDEE
Now that was definitely uncalled for. There was no need for the blatant ignorance, leave the ethnicity issues OUT of the boards.
This silly argument needs to cease now.
Very sad post you made.
bummer...
I have plenty more where that came from also.
Acela
This is a General Quarters announcement. All hands, man your battle stations!!!
Better hope Selly isn't blessing the cab during this encounter. :P
I'd bring my R16 Humvee, but it's down for the count. :P
After several weeks of this their brains should be reduced to mush and the spike protruding from their midsections could be used for hockey goalposts.
Please do not demean day care nurserys like that.
After all, there all of the s#! stays in the diaper.
Please do not demean day care nurserys like that.
After all, there all of the s#! stays in the diaper.
That post is soooooooooo true!
It's a shame it'll go when this thread gets deleted, hopefully this thread won't lead to a shutdown....
I was gonna ask that.
I won't use it though until they change the name back to Firebird, that was much better. :)
I'll agree on the spelling matter, the stories are more important. If we were to look only at sites and posts with perfect (or at least decent) spelling and grammer, half of the sites on the Internet would experience decreased hit counts.
This tale is doon, and God saue al the rowte!
What a lot of our anal-retentive types don't seem to understand is that "communication" is not a single-ended event - it requires a married pair of "speech" and "comprehension" ... in other words, if you're really interested in a story and the story-teller lacks in "finesse," the INTERESTED party will make an effort to understand. Sadly, SOME folks expect the silver platter treatment with dessert.
I'd much rather see a badly constructed story that I may have to read the same sentence three times to "get" than a perfectly spelled, perfectly constructed *INSULT* or flame war. But I s'pose that's just me. :(
But Rosie O'Donnell is.
(And I have my suspicions about Hillary)
I can tell that it must be a very important issue on your mind. I hope it isn't tormenting you day and night. I can give you a crisis hotline number if you need it. Maybe we can do an early intervention.
Yes, I have taken pictures on PATH, but I have never done the things listed in 1), 2), 4), and 5). If you would like to discuss your concerns further, please email me (your email is not linked).
When TA employees act as this one did, we all should snitch.
2) Accident chasing photographer
And why is this bad?
3) Claims to follow rules yet takes pictures on PATH
OK, you got him there. But in the subway system, he breaks no rules.
4) Tampering with signs
When? Where? How?
5) Harassing Passengers on the MODs
WHAT?!?! Care to elaborate?
Brian was clearly wronged in this situation. I'm puzzled as to why you're attacking him.
6) Taking unauthorized picture at a NYCT employee behind her back and posting it on Subtalk. That thread was deleted.
LOL, don't tell me you've forgotten the important rule 1050.9(c) that allows photography in the subway system?!? No one needs to authorize photos that are taken in compliance with the Rules of Conduct.
The reason why that thread was deleted was because immature people were making inappropriate comments about the photo. Also, legal action may have been threatened against Dave, as it was against me. But justice prevailed and the photo is still available on my website, in the same album it has been since the day I took it and uploaded it.
As much as we don't like to talk about things, NYCT issued a memo to all employees that if anyone is observing someone taking pictures, they are ordered to challange the photographer. This was after 9/11. It does tell a lie, to some degree that photography is illegal, but NYCT employees can't afford to lose their jobs. They are obligated to follow the instructions on the memos issued by RTO, Stations, and the like. Ignore someone, and it's clear grounds for insubordination or disregarding a written directive. I say this: NYCT management DOES tell lies about the rules and laws but the lower echelon (CTA, C/R, S/A, T/O, etc) must adhere to the so-callled rules.
You have to put yourself in someone else's shoes and understand the problems in keeping a job such as NYCT.
Regarding the Jay Street incident, you could've complied with the worker's request to put your camera away and wait until she leaves, or take the next F or A train to another stop. Instead, you took it upon yourself to take a picture behind her back like that. You are an adult and if that was retribution for what she did to you on a prior MOD trip before the incident, then that's childish.
Exactly.
Suppose you took photographs at the backs of some NYCT employees. One of them finds out about your photos in your website. But later on, some workers are being targeted by outside forces (we all here hope it does not happen), of which at least two of the workers were the ones in your photographs that were targets of a mob hit or something.
What would you say to that? I always endorse what you do Brian, but to this day, I never condoned your actions at Jay St., that was out of pocket.
Irrelevant. Poor judgement in a seperate incident cannot affect a judge applying the proper law.
1050.6 (2) In no event will an activity be permitted in a location which interferes with the access onto or off of an escalator, stairway or elevator, or otherwise interferes with or impedes transit services or the movement of passengers.
A clearly marked construction area was noted in the picture of one of your 34 Street train with smoke issuing pictures and a narrow platform of which passenger travel is impeded.
That's a huge stretch.
Also withstanding, if an employee "Violates" your rights, the right thing to do is to file the complaint. But the employee has the right to ask you to stop. Its their workplace. You don't know how employees feel when we read of Al Qaeda blowing up trains and aircraft and killing innocent civilians and then we are called on the carpet because I felt I was protecting my safety in the only way as an American I know how. I don't give a crap about your right to take pictures , it is my duty to protect myself, coworkers and passengers, its my railroad, not yours. Use your head and learn the time to walk away and we won't have to see this utter BS. If an employee tells you stop, and you proceed you can still be subject to a fine.
Bullsh!t. An employee has no greater claim to the subway system as would a rider. TA employees work for us, they do not command us. No amount of irrational fear gives any MTA employee the right to do something the law clearly states he/she cannot. This TA employee wasn't concerned about potential terrorism, or his safety. He simply saw an opportunity to boss someone around and inflate his ego.
10650.6 (D) All persons on or in any facility or conveyance of the Authority shall:
Comply with all lawful orders and directives of any transit police officer or Authority employee acting within the scope of his or her employment;
Lawful orders is the key here. This TA employee had no authority to restrict a citizen from lawfully photographing public areas.
Anyway this is off topic anyway, it should be posted on photography talk.
Why did you say that about me? I said nothing to you to deserve that. You're not being fair.
You bring up something that I said over seven months ago? If you'll recall, I was dismayed at what came out as a callous remark on your part with respect to a victim of what appeared to be* a horrifying case of police abuse; my use of the r-word was out of line, as I later admitted.
As for the present situation, while you didn't mention any names the use of the s.c.a. phrase pretty much narrowed it down.
* = I say "appeared to be" as there was never any follow-up to the story in the news, as far as I could tell. It's possible that the woman's account was not 100% accurate.
If we want to make the house analogy more accurate, then we'd have to change things around. Employees who tell photographers not to take pictures do not own the subway. The MTA is the owner/operator of the subway and has established a series of rules. If I was at a party in someone's house and the owner/host told me that I could smoke, then the guy put in charge of the coats says I should stop, I'd tell him to buzz off (most likely not, since it is a social situation, but I could).
Now if a person is abusing his power, then that person is not suited to perform the job that they have, therefore I would have no qualms jeopardizing the person's career. He brought it on himself.
The thread may have been deleted for inanity, but why should one have authorization to take a picture of a NYCT employee? And if it doesn't show the employee's face, how is it even bad manners, much less improper?
Something is improper for the general public to do because the TA has written internal memos on the topic?
I agree that maybe taking someone's picture without showing their face might be considered a slight invasion of privacy, but it was held up as a major violation, not a minor transgression. It certainly is nowhere near the invasion of privacy that photographing someone's face is, and even that is usually done by accident and/or without any malicious intent.
Read the responses to your post #672874. As I said, your childish, arrogant attitude is exactly why people don't like you. You are a piece of shit, plain and simple.
:)
:)
:)
---Sir Ronald of McDonald!
No he doesn't. He can't take pictures on Path property.
I just think that if there was smoke on the platform then he should of been more wise in the choice of taking pictures. But if you and Brian belive that its ok to risk ones health to take a picture of a R46 then more power to you.
Further, when asked, we are bound by rule to properly ID ourselves.
By his third or fourth photo, an MTA employee came over and started screaming, “Hey! Hey! You can’t do that down here! You need a permit to do that!” Brian looked back at him and said, “I can. It’s in the rules. As long as I don’t use a flash or a tripod, it’s fine.” The MTA employee then said, “No, I don’t care about the rules. The rules mean nothing.” Brian then said, “I have the documentation [or rules] from the MTA website.” The MTA employee then responded, “The rules mean nothing. You’re going to listen to me. You don’t want to listen to me? We can take this upstairs. You and me – let’s go upstairs.”
At this time a small crowd, some of whom were definitely tourists was forming. One even said, “Leave him alone – he’s just taking a picture!” It was here that Brian asked for the MTA employee’s badge number. The man, stocky, short, and probably in his 30s looked back at Brian and said, “I don’t gotta give you nuttin’ – You come with me. Do you have a photo ID?” Brian again insisted that he had the rules. The MTA employee responded with, “Uh uh. You need to be supervised when you take pictures. You can’t do that here. You need a permit. When the media comes, they have passes.”
So Brian and I followed the guy back to the turnstiles where the MTA employee asked another guy who had come out of the booth (after he had given him a high five and whispered something into his ear) about that “this man was taking pictures.” The other employee – tall, definitely into at least his 50s, African American, and claimed to have to cover three stations that night – said that photos are forbidden. Brian again insisted that he had the rules. The rules now meant nothing to both employees, each claiming that “You do as we say.” In fact, one said, “Do you want to go to a cop?” It was at this point where I figured that it just wasn’t worth it, so I insisted that both Brian and I head back downstairs.
It was here when it hit me that Brian was openly harassed by at least one employee and since he wasn’t being cooperative with the badge request, I insisted upon filing an immediate complaint with MTA Police. I was going to snap his photo with my camera-phone, but he kept looking over at me. By this time there were at least three firemen on the track observing the smoke condition. Unfortunately, I was unable to come across the direct number for MTA Police – I wanted to report it as an emergency and have cops track this guy down. (it really should be published on “The Map”). So instead I insisted on coming back upstairs and asking the booth worker about how to file a complaint. She – low and behold – didn’t really know how to respond. Brian found that other guy (the guy that the first employee led us to – the tall, older, African American male). It was here that he said, “I don’t have time for this. I have to see three other stations tonight.” He said, “There’s a cop over there. Let’s go talk to him.” It was here I got rather nervous. He followed us over to the cop where I politely asked, “How do I go about filing a complaint with MTA Police during business hours?” The cop didn’t know right away, but wanted to make sure everything was ok.
Brian and I told him what had happened and he said that both employees, especially the first one, were way out of line. It should be noted that at this point the employee that said, “Let’s go talk to the cop” suddenly vanished. Once the tides were turning to our side, I turned around and he was gone. The cop backed up the established rule about photography and said that if the employee was still downstairs and wouldn’t turn over his badge, he’d come down and make him. Unfortunately, as we returned downstairs, the employee was gone. He was at this point either in the tower at the rear of the platform or had taken the next train out.
I can’t speak for Brian, but I was very taken-back by the experience. This was my first altercation with an MTA employee going after a railfan. If it had went a few minutes further, I was concerned that the initial employee was going to get physical. I don’t think any employee without showing proper identification can force a customer out of a certain area without a cop. For all we know, this guy wasn’t even an employee (of course he was – I’m being hypothetical as he didn’t turn over his badge).
The MTA Police do not patrol the subway. The nearest MTA Police Officer was probably at Penn Station (or maybe at Grand Central, if Amtrak does all the patrolling at Penn Station). NYPD Transit Bureau patrols the subway.
David
From your story, it appears both employees in question were ill-informed and obviously were creating rules of their own as they went along. They were unruly and had no right to harass you or Brian during this ordeal. It's a good thing the MTA clearly outlines on photography in their system, but what's the point if some employees still have their head in the water about this issue? Given this situation, it didn't even seem that the rules Brian had on it had no effect. These employees need a crash course on this. NOW.
Regards,
Jimmy
NEVER HAPPENED!
The prolonged hiatus was caused by an idiot posting a sensitive question about terrorism. There was never a prolonged hiatus because of name-calling.
Do they even have two R-16's to begin with?
#3 West End Jeff
Anyway, I suggest y'all use discretion with your selection of pics to avoid getting into this situation.
-- David
Brooklyn, NY
Elias
-- David
Brooklyn, NY
Ditmars Blvd N
Kings Highway
to
Ditmars Blvd W
Whitehall St
But the "Buy It Now" price is $2300! And the seller has a ZERO rating.
Way way overpriced (almost $200 per volume, plus shipping) IMO, but thought you'd like to know, just in case you have lots of $$$$ just lying around and you trust a brand new seller.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3594086164
As to the second point, maybe you have to pay for his auto trip. :)
But why don't they abandon the middle track at Essex Street and expand the island platform over that trackbed, making a very wide platform that can accommodate double-wide staircases down to the exit and the F?
Since the J/M/Z will be a two-track operation from the Willy B to Chambers and beyond, why keep that middle track and the very narrow island platform configuration?
IMO, northbound trains should use the middle track, and a removeable bridge should be placed across the current northbound track leading to the south mezzanine.
1. What is the correct name: Eldert Lane or Elderts Lane? It appears both ways.
2. Is this in Queens or Brooklyn? What is the name of the section or neighborhood of that borough?
3. What is the name of the building (appears to be a high school) that appears just outside the station?
Thanks,
Dave
Franklin K. Lane High School
Bill "Newkirk"
2) The station is half in Woodhaven, NY (Queens) and Cypress Hills, NY (Brooklyn).
3) Franklin K Lane H.S. Very annoying there for local police because where is a disturbance, There is a question if this is a matter for the 102 Pct in Queens or the 75 Pct in Brooklyn.
The Subway Map calls it Elderts (leastwise the older one that I looked at)
My Hagstrom's map has it both ways, Eldert in the South and Elderts in the north.
The County Lion sits right in the middle of the road. I'd suspect that it is called "Elderts" in Queens and "Eldert" in Brooklyn, you'd have to check with the post offices about that.
My Microsoft Map calls it "Eldert" which is good enough reason for the rest of us to call it "Elderts"
: ) Elias
My Hagstrom has "Eldert Lane", with the Bklyn-Queens boundary at the centerline of this street, at Jamaica Avenue. The county boundary then continues north into the Franklin K Lane property, appearing to sit at the eastern edge of the large Lane building, and goes north, through the northeast corner of the Lane property, until it intersects the boundary between Cypress Hills Cemetery and Forest Park. It then jogs west through Cypress Hills Cemetery towards Cypress Hills Street.
Thanks for your 2). I hadn't realized up until now that the el station was partly in Brooklyn, partly in Queens. It appears from my USGS Jamaica NY quadrangle that only maybe fifty feet of the Manhattan-bound platform extends west over the centerline of Eldert Lane into Brooklyn.
Myrtle Ave station on the L is half in Brooklyn, half in Queens. Wyckoff Ave station on the M comes right up to the border, the centerline of Wyckoff Avenue, at Palmetto Street.
21st-Van Alst on the G line is close to, but not on, the border
(Newtown Creek).
The 76th Street station, if it ever existed on the IND Fulton Line, would also be close to the Bklyn-Queens border.
The Manhattan-Bronx border is midway between the 225th Street and 231st Street stations on the 1 and 9 elevated lines. It's at that small piece of Manhattan on the United States mainland that resulted from the re-routing of the Harlem river there.
Oh no, not THAT topic again (gulp)!
Depends on where in the school it happens. If it happens in the Queens half, the 102nd is called, the Brooklyn half is covered by the 75th. I kid you not.
When in doubt, both are called.
Vince
I don't know that the neighborhood is all that bad, either. A transit cop friend of mine did police work (copycat arrests - fare beaters, I think) at the adjacent Cypress Hills station in the late '80's, but didn't describe the area as particularly bad. Nothing horrific happened there, like the Halsey St. L line token booth clerk burned to death in Spring 1988, or the murder of the young teenage girl, Christine Diffenbach, September 1988, in Richmond Hill.
The only crime statistic I know is what I had already mentioned hearing on 1010 WINS, that the adjacent Franklin K Lane H.S. is rated 3rd worst in NYC for safety and security. The husband of one of my three first cousins graduated Lane around 1970, and said it was a rough school.
The station's probably best avoided if possible when school gets out.
"The station's probably best avoided if possible when school gets out." Reminds me of a cousin of mine who attended Christ The King HS in Middle Village, 1969-73. She got hassled by the kids from PS 93 and Ridgewood Junior High that got on the Brooklyn-bound M at Forest Avenue station.
Messed up. Always liked how Woodhaven always stands out among the el line communities. Gives you a little taste of how the Jamaica area was up until the end of the `50s. If I read between the lines in what you're saying, I'd bet a lot of that is being caused by many of the homeowners there who have moved away and decided to rent out rooms. They just don't give a crap. Yet, just a little north of there lie plenty of neighborhoods in good shape.
Well, the cycle cycles. Look further west along the old el. Neighborhoods are re-upping themselves anew. Now, if somehow, the abandonded LIRR branch that crosses east of there were to be reborn, with a new Brooklyn Manor station atop Jamaica Ave pffering service to Penn Station and Grand Central Terminal, you would see that stretch come into its own again. And then some.
Another example of how limited the "...but trains'll let the bad guys into our streets!" mentality is regarding that line. Woodhaven (and Jamaica Avenue east to Jamaica) deserved to have a brand new conduit to the CBD cores opened up within its midst. It has remained steadfastly and true to the old-time New York trolley suburb dynamic. The area has contributed many things to the city at large, tax revenues for one thing, with a decent shopping district instead of vacancies, and has been an island of relative tranquility in a sea of troubled turf. So why not let it grow to the next level? Because fools further up the Boulevard think they're living in a Walled City?
I'm rather surprised. Richmond Hill and Woodhaven seem like decent neighborhoods with strong real estate values. I know that the sections just south of Forest Park look quite upscale. But then again, you live in the area, and would know more about it.
I'm still trying to recover from the closure of Lewis's of Woodhaven. It's been a neighborhood institution for 60+ years.
A not-unfamiliar tale of neighborhood decline, although the high prices for real eatate must mean that some reasonably affluent people still see that part of Woodhaven as desirable. Unless, as already mentioned in the thread, the buyers are absentee landlords who will rent out the houses on a room-by-room basis to low-income people, a phenomenon not unknown in other parts of Queens.
That is probably correct. As originally designed, the line ended at Jamaica Ave and Crescent Street, and the terminal station at Cypress Hills was actually over Crescent Street, as opposed to Jamaica Avenue. The curve at the Crescent St station was probably less of a "speed" issue back then because the trains were going slow at that poing anyway after leaving the terminal at Cypress Hills. It was only an "L curve back then. In the late teens when they extended the line over Jamaica Ave, that's when the "S" curve came into being, and Cypress Hills station was relocated.
As for the cemetery theory, I'm sure that was the reason they terminated what is now the J at Cypress Hills originally, as opposed to Crescent/Fulton. The M's whole reason for being was also to bring people to the cemetery. On many old maps of Ridgewood, what is now the "M" el was originally called "Dummy Steam Railroad to the Lutheran Cemetery". That was the orignal reason for what became the M ROW that now has the el on it.
Yes indeed. I only found out this past year how the curve looked. I always wondered why there were only 6 family homes on one side of Palmetto St by St Nicholas, where the Ridgewood Grove (Royal Farms Supermarket) is/was. The tracks actually went through, and decended on the Ridgewood Grove site, and then joined Palmetto St on the surface. Someone posted a site with old photos of Queens and Brooklyn neighborhoods here a few months ago, and had countless photos of Ridgewood, with the "M's" historical el photos making up most of them. I lost the link when my computer crashed back in November, so don't know the name of the site. (But would love to know if anyone knows). Those photos were astonishing, and showed the M extension in various states of construction in the periond 1913 to 1915.
The site you are referring to is Queenspix . Just go to the Ridgewood pictures.
Cemeteries were also known as "memorial parks".
Isaac Asimov, in his first autobiography, the one I'd like to read now, with all the details of his growing up in Bushwick, recalled playing with his friends in Evergreen Cemetery, and how it was so much fun, it seemed a whole new world to them.
Now all they (and the producers of the city's street signs) have to do is get on the stick about BEVERLY RD (official spelling in LION file).
Enjoy,
Bob
And isn't that what I suggested several posts back.
Thanks for the confirmation.
Elias
Cyrpess Hills Cemetary and park are quite beautiful and during the winter months provide a magnificent view of Manhatten with eastern Brooklyn laid out in front of you.
Vince
I suppose the views from Cypress Hills Cemeteery and Forest Park are more distant in the winter months because the trees are free of leaves then, except for evergreens.
2. It's mostly in Queens, the border between boros runs down the center of Elderts Lane, which would bisect the old mezzanine. The neighborhoods in question are named Woodhaven the Queens side, Cypress Hills on the Brooklyn side.
3. Franklin K Lane High School, my former HS and probably the worst HS in the city.
I have noticed that these cars are invariably marked Kings Highway. Are they turning some F's at Kings Highway or, as I believe it is more likely, they don't have Ave X on the roll sign and so they are saying Kings Highway?
Peace,
ANDEE
You can bet some hotshot in the NYPD is going to bend the meaning to include people standing around taking pictures in the subway.
Am I being paraniod? Probably but given all the problems that many people get just for taking pictures in the subway even though it is allowed, you never know.
How about MetroCard collectors who pick up discarded MCs :-(
Am glad I have a fleet of buses to look thru.
Already the basis for suspicion by an NYPD officer to search you, I'm sure anyone who waits for a friend or relative won't have 50 Metrocards in his/her pockets. Most likely, they should be able to be let go if that's the case and continue waiting.
I'm sure there's an ACLU attorney who would love to have that case. The police can't search you unless they have reasonable cause to believe you have committed a crime. As long as you're not approaching people and doing something that looks like offering to swipe, and as long as you don't block people, you can stand around without being considered a suspect.
Got held up there in a wagon for about 45 minutes before the detectives went through my pockets, checked my arms and legs for "tracks" (not 5 foot gauge) and eventually let me go with a warning to never come near that bar again. I guess being "clean" and only having $4.00 for lunch in my wallet helped ... but aside from me and one other guy, everybody went for a ride to the precinct.
I'm glad to see that they're going to go after the swipers, but it sure would be nice if the alleged charges were a bit more specific and required some degree of actual "they did it IN my face" ...
Swiper. No swiping.
Swiper. No swiping.
If the MTA provided proper customer service the swiper problem would not exist.
Then again if you feel that swipers provide great customer service, then I have a bridge to sell to you (and I'm very good at that).
I've taken 300 subway rides in the past 5 months and never seen a station entrance where all Metrocard machines were out of service, or most were out of service and the ones in service had a long line. I'm sure it happens, but not often.
Have you considered that the main market for swipers is not people who don't want to wait on a long line, but people who want to participate in stealing from the MTA? A ride costs $1.67 from the MTA (or $2 if you don't have the common sense to buy 6 at a time), but only $1 or whatever the going rate is from the swipers.
The buyers are joint participants in theft.
Mark
As I said, in hundreds of rides I've never seen that strategy in action.
Because the penalty for swiping is a $25 fine and nothing on your record. And the penalty for vandalizing an MVM is probably much worse.
Begin next trip around the endless loop.
That should be the option of last resort. Unlimited-ride cards are a win-win because they're good for the city's economy. Without them, perhaps Joe Tightwad tells his wife on Saturday that he doesn't want to see Mystic River because ten bucks for a movie ticket is bad enough without another eight bucks in bus or train fare for two people on top of it. With them, that thought never crosses Joe's mind. They already have unlimited-ride cards for work, so the trip is essentially free. Of course they'll have lunch in a nearby restaurant beforehand and maybe that new electronics store across the street from the theater will catch their eye.
Msybe because it's dishonest?
The lockout works, once an unlimited card is swiped, it cannot be reused at that location for a fixed amount of time. (In Baltimore, monthly passes, which are megneticly coded for the subway faregates, have an 18 minute lockout at the same station.) This would put the swipers out of business.
The lockout works, once an unlimited card is swiped, it cannot be reused at that location for a fixed amount of time. (In Baltimore, monthly passes, which are megneticly coded for the subway faregates, have an 18 minute lockout at the same station.) This would put the swipers out of business.
NYCT also has an 18 minute lockout.
Swipers buy multiple cards and rotate them around. If left unimpeded they can make one "sale" every 18 minutes for each card they have.
Presumably they also move around from station to station 9a) to escape the attention of the police, (b) to keep their card from being canceled by NYCT for having 300 consecutive swipes at the same station, and even (c) because you can often walk to another station in a lot less than 18 minutes.
Just to test how it worked, I once used an unlimited at Broad St, exited the other end, and used it at Wall and William 2 minutes later.
If the MTA does not properly maintain their fare control equipment, they should be left holding the bag when people try to ride the subway.
My personal observations concerning "sales" by swipers is that in the overwhelming majority of cases, the Metrocard vending machines are working and the customers are simply joining in a partnership with the swipers to deprive NYCT of revenue.
Have you observed differently?
Want to know why we will have the next fare increase? Blame it on the swipers and the customers who patronize them.
Most customers of swipers are thieves, not people who have had the horrible misfortune to be out of Metrocard value just when all the machines were broken.
So they could get a Metrocard at a store, check cashing facility, etc. So then there is really no excuse [or need] to wait on line so much. Most people who pay swipers are those who are most likely buying single rides. Besides at my station the machines normally have a problem accepting bills [or the machine is not functional all together], who wants to go to a store to create change and lots of people don't worry with the dollar coins.
If the MTA provided proper customer service the swiper problem would not exist.
Even then, the swiper situation will still exist but it may not be so common.
Exactly. The Times recently had an article about the drug dealers who openly ply their trade in Washington Square Park. Although this has been going on for many years, the police have had very little success in stopping it. If police enforcement has failed in this case, I hardly imagine that it will work with respect to swipers.
"He Blew a Fuse"
-Sean Connery in Goldfinger (1964)
Does that mean Oddjob's hat will be attached to the HEET in question?
Riverline inauguration: Noon Saturday, Mar 13 at Rand Transpo Center in Camden...may have a few free demo rides for full length.
Regular service at regular fare on Sunday.
Worse comes to worse, take Patco to the Mustard-Frankfurter El, check out the overhead construction on the trackless lines at Margaret-Orthodox and Frankfort, in anticipation of the restart. Also, may be a good day to check progress of the Rt 15 work.
In any case, the day won't be wasted, and regular service, with fare, will begin on Sunday on the DLRV.
Are the engineers on the LIRR permitted to operate trains in passenger service with the cab doors open?
Here's why I ask.
Yesterday morning, I boarded the 9:19 a.m. train at Jamaica, heading to Flatbush Avenue. The train consisted of M-1's, originated in West Hempstead and was six cars long. In addition to my usual briefcase, I was carrying two large bags of things I was carrying to my office. Since I expected the train to be crowded, and it was, I planned to stand by the railfan window in the front car. I know from experience that the vast majority of LIRR riders would rather sit than stand at the window.
I entered the first car and sure enough, the railfan window spot was available. I went over and placed my three bags on the floor. The train then started to move forward. The engineer then opened his cab door, hitting me in the shoulder. I looked into the cab and he shot me a dirty look. He then said "Would you move back, please?" I said, "why?" He said, "because I want to keep this door open." I gestured toward my bags and said "I need the room for my stuff." He stopped the train and said in a loud, somewhat threatening tone, "You can't stand there. Please move back."
People started to notice the confrontation, and since I didn't want to delay anyone, I moved back and allowed him to open the door.
Here's my question. Was what he did permitted?
Okay?
I said that to an MNRR trainman the one time I was told to move. He said he had no problem with me looking out, just with standing right up against the front door and blocking the engineer's door. He suggested I sit in the aisle seat nearest to the door, which I did. (I had no choice.) But the train I was on wasn't crowded, at least at that point.
I'm curious what you think your reaction might be if the "standee" said to you, "Please, I'm a train buff, a foamer! I wanna look out the front window! C'mon!" Heh heh. (Providing it wasn't Jersey Mike, that is. In which case probably no one would blame you if you had him locked up!) LOL
What if the area outside the door is blocked by standees, for instance if an already crowded rush hour train picks up pax from a disabled train?
SAFETY IS OF THE MOST IMPORTANTS TO REMAIN IN SERVICE ALL RULES MUST BE COMPLIED WITH.
WHEN IN DOUBT THE SAFEST WAY MUST BE USED.
in otherways no shortcuts what so ever.
Betcha that has changed with the advent of the M-7s
Elias
IF YOU KNOW WHAT HAPPEND IN SPAIN TODAY YOU DONT HAVE TO SAY ANY
MORE.
Mark
Anyway, the PA police were waiting at the end of the platform at JSQ, plus a maintenance guy with a mop and disinfectant. We sat with just the front of the head car on the platform while the drunk was taken off and the car was swabbed down. Afterwards the engineer complained that the disinfectant used was making his eyes tear. He called control and requested permission to operate with the cab door open. They said okay.
Having followed the fantasy/alternative map and map contest threads over the past few days, I decided to come up with my own map.
So, I just started with MS Paint and got to a reasonably good-looking layout over the past 3 hours or so. Now, the 'only' thing I still have to do is the fill-in (stations, names, finishing touch). But that will come - in a few days, don't worry.
In the mean time, feel free to take a look at
http://www.transitgallery.com/data/072b030ba126b2f4b2374f342be9ed44/full_222_p8792.gif
and don't hesitate to comment on the lay-out. Remember: it still has to be finished, so please, no alarming/wiseguy comments on the missing stations etc. etc. N-joy,
-Alargule
Here is where you can download the Blank Map Template. Microsoft Internet Explorer has an option that allows you to save it in MS Paint BMP format.
John
But: just wait and see...
In answer to your second question, a great deal. My map has also been published in print in Mark Ovenden's book on "Subway maps of World", which appeared in 2003. This book was published in association with the London Transport Museum, who administer copyright of the London Underground Map. Not only did they have no problems with my use of diagrammatic principles, but if I decide to put this map into production, the London Transport Museum have already told me that they would be delighted to sell copies of it. They have no problem with use of the diagrammatic style, except where it is applied to the London Underground network.
Having made my map available to subtalkers again, you have posted your version without any acknoiwledgment of this, and other subtalkers have already agreed that unusual hallmarks on my map also appear on yours. If these feature appear on a map of yours dated 1985 or whenever, that is an unfortunate coincidence. Publishing is priority. This design has been sent to the US Library of Congress in order to register it for copyright. It has also been sent to the MTA for evaluation.
Had you posted a message along the lines of "Max Roberts' map is interesting, but I think I can make it better" then that would have been better. Currently, my problem is with your manners.
Right now, I have put another (geographical) map of a fantasy-fantasy network (= fantasy network of a fantasy city) on the web. See my newest thread for more info.
Concerning the 'alternative' Underground map: I drew this map by representing the Circle line just the way the name infers: as a full perfect circle. Due to a virus attack on my computer a few years ago, I had to delete all my files, so I'm afraid I won't be coming up with this map rightaway. But it could be redrawn easily; just have patience and I'll show you both my NY and Tube map.
The lucky few of you who are (somewhat) familiar with the system, will see that this map does not only contain the future North-South Line (52, 58) with an extension to Schiphol Airport, but also a completion of the Ring Line...AND an East-West line (59). The design is diagrammatic, so geographically inaccurate. I had to squeeze in some of the names, but if you enlarge this image, you should be able to read them (if you can read Dutch).
http://www.transitgallery.com/data/072b030ba126b2f4b2374f342be9ed44/225_p8809.gif
Actually, no, as you would most probably have figured...the three X's are so-called "Andreaskruizen", but that's all I know of them. What they represent precisely, I don't know (wasn't paying any attention when this subject came up during history class, presumably). They do appear in a number of other Dutch city weapons, though, so they don't seem to be restricted to Amsterdam history only.
BTW, Circle Line is set to be abolished in the next decade, replaced by a Edgware Road - Hammersmith service the long way round.
Aha, the Teacup Line!
Of course, when it comes to the point, public protest may prevent the change. The plan has a couple of obvious disdvantages. No service on the east-to-north curve at the Aldgate triangle, necessitating a change at Tower Hill. And passengers from High St Ken, Notting Hill Gate, etc., bound for Kings Cross, etc., have to change at Edgware Road.
The advantage is, allegedly, better timekeeping. I'll believe it when it happens.
Not necessarily, if the new line were to become a branch of the H&Cline
They're not posted to the station-by-station section here, and I can't find them on Google or SubTalk searches.
Yep, Dallas and Houston both have crowded trains. It just goes to show, that people aren't as in love with the automobile as popular wisdom holds. If there's a choice, lots of people will choose the train.
Mark
My conference was inside the Hyatt Regency (next to the Reunion Tower). Walking through the underground passage between the Hotel and Union Station, there was a neat picture exhibit of old streetcars in Dallas, and a picture of McKinney Avenue Horsecar.
Mark
What is SMART?
Mark
Sun Metro Area Rapid Transit (SMART) Starter Line
Mark
The pro-motoring pubic have been using the "low density" argument to derail any attempts for constructing rail transport. It's common knowledge that if you build it, they will come! If you would have told me that somone would walk to the east side of Bayonne/Jersey city to catch a lightrail several years ago, I would have called you insane.
The Dart system was made properly unlike their Houston counter part who decided to run the lightrail along with traffic and not build ROW.
Mark
As always, I really appreciate anyone helping me identify the contactor worning on the station (or stations) involved. Stations of interest are:
the Lenox stations, especially the troubled 116th St. station.
Kings Highway, Newkirk, and Church on the Brighton Line
Brooklyn Bridge-City Hall/IRT
3rd Ave/149th st/IRT
207th st/IND
125th st/IND and 125th st/IRT under the original 80's renovations
137th st/City College/IRT
42nd st/Port Authority under the original renovation, with those long winding ramps
Broadway-Lafayette/IND
Canal St/BMT and IND complex
33rd st, 40th st, 46th st, 61st st, 82nd st, 90th st and Junction Blvd all on the Flushing line
23rd st/Ely Ave (the passageway was a seperate contract.)
34th st/Hearld Square complex
Graham Ave/BMT Mezzanines redo
Clark St/IRT
Thanks again!
Dave Pirmann (the webmaster for both nycsubway.org) has a companion site called World Transit Systems (click on the World Transit Systems on the nycsubway.org home page on the left side). It has many of the transportation systems around the globe. You might want to consider emailing him (via. the Feedback Form) if you are interested in providing some great information on Sweden's transit system. I checked in the Europe pages and Sweden is not there.
Do that, and once you give him all the info, he will add your name to the contributors list.
It is one way to make sure the T/O is awake and paying attention.
There used to be one just outside of Pelham Bay Park station but was removed when the signals were upgraded.
Robert
Patrick Kerkstra's article Sunday ("Regional transit in transition") cites SEPTA's apparent indifference to revival of the Schuylkill Valley Metro or MetroRail project. Fortunately, there is an alternative to SEPTA's participation: Norfolk Southern Railroad may be interested in operating the passenger service, under a contract with the Pennsylvania Department of Transportation. The service would operate on tracks that Norfolk Southern owns between Reading and Norristown and would continue from Norristown to Philadelphia on SEPTA's R6 tracks.
If Norfolk Southern builds the project as commuter rail service, appendages such as extending the Norristown High Speed Line to the King of Prussia malls and converting SEPTA's R6 Cynwyd service to "light rail" can be relegated to later. These economies related to the demise of SEPTA's failed MetroRail plan could reduce the project's startup cost by more than 50 percent.
Building the project only as far as King of Prussia or Phoenixville would be impractical; this would discriminate against constituents farthest from Philadelphia in U.S. Rep. Jim Gerlach's Sixth District, and he is the project's principal proponent. Service must go all the way to Reading on day one.
John Thomas Cooper
Upper Merion Township
Mark
And why is everyone so damn obessed with converting R6 service to light rail? Is there a Surface-Subway line nearby to connect to (I don't remember one)? Just fix the Manayunk bridge for heavy-rail traffic (From what I read it's been stablized to prevent decay, but is still not capable of handling rail loadings - correct me if I'm wrong), reinstitue real R6 service (or, as describe in the article, use it for Reading service), and get the hell outta the way...
Yeah, we got our problems up here in NY, but it's still a shame to see SEPTA waste such good rail infrastructure potential.
Wasting rail infrastructure is a long-time mission at SEPTA. Look at how many miles of streetcar tracks have been obliterated, while many more miles just lie unused. Then there's all the FRA trackage that could be used to restore commuter service to places like West Chester or New Hope.
Argh.
Mark
It was rumored that he had been an men's underwear model at one point.
Hugh was very modest and rarely discussed his private life. He will best be remembered for the successful ERA Conventions he organized in the 1970's. Hugh's fall from favor was very rapid after charges of embezzlement from the ERA, which I understand he paid back -- a sum of $25,000 -- to avoid criminal prosecution.
Soon after that, Hugh Dunne dropped out of sight.
I looked at the chapter and was surprised to find it was about Hugh Dunne. In 1982, Stephen Brook visited New York City. According to the blurb on the jacket: "He visits its schools, its courts, its subways, prisons, museums, and hospitals. He observes the city at work--- in law, journalism politics, real estate --- and at play--- in restaurants and discos, on Broadway and the Bowery, at the opera and the sado-masochistic Mineshaft Club. And while this is a vivid portrait of the city that is the epitome of the City, it is also a shrewd examination of the issues and tensions that stir New York."
Anyway, back to Hugh Dunne. The author and another MTA worker tagged along one morning with Mr. Dunne while he made his rounds of the system. They visited towers, bus depots, train yards, City Hall station and Coney Island shops. They walked the tracks with him and responded to several train breakdowns and incidents. He was all over the place and quite well known to many workers.
From the posts in this thread, I realize that people have some strong feelings about Mr. Dunne. I first joined the ERA back in the 60's and remember him from the trips and from seeing him at the Division sales table at the meetings.
Anyway, the chapter is about 10 pages long. I'm thinking about xeroxing a bunch of copies of the chapter,going to Friday's meeting of the ERA and offering them to anyone who remembers Hugh Dunne.
If anyone here wants one, send me an e-mail with your name and address and I'll mail you a copy.
If I go to the meeting, I'm going to bring along my copy of Eddie Jabbour's new map for people's inspection and comments.
Not according to this 1920 track map located on Dave's site. The original connection was kept. In addition, the Bergen Av Cutoff crossed at a grade with the Wetschester El.
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/maps/historical/irt-1920.gif
The track connection would be unused after 1946.
-Stef
>>the cutoff was a flying connection that rose directly above the portal that was directly below Bergen Ave>>
I'm not asking about the subway portion on Westchester Av. I was making reference to the original 1904 structure that connected the 3rd Av El with the Subway. You are correct that the Bergen Av Portion rose above the subway and ran over it at the portal.
BUT, you stated that the original structure was demolished in 1916 and replaced with the newer cutoff. That may be incorrect somewhat. For verification, I viewed a video from the 1940s era with a camera looking southward from a Northbound IRT Train leaving the portal which revealed the Bergen Av cutoff above the subway portion. In addition, I was able to identify a row of columns separate from the Bergen cutoff that continued straight on Westchester Avenue towards the 3rd Av Elevated. As far as I could tell, the Bergen Ave Cutoff and the original 1904 connection were at grade with each other. Could it have been possible that the 1904 connection remained in place but was unused?
In the same video, another scene was shown with a S/B Train entering the portal at 149th St. This clip would be after 1946, as the Bergen cutoff ends abruptly in the vicinity of the portal.
My information wasn't based entirely on the map as you stated.
>>You really need to go take a ride on the White Plains Road line and see the former connection for yourself.>>
As a Bronx Resident, I ride the el everyday. I currently call Jackson and Westchester Avenues home.
More for you....The video I have in my possession is by Mark I Video. Called The Stygian Caves, it was originally produced by Walter Druck in 1949.
Regards,
Constantine Steffan
Some Second Ave. Local service was routed to Bronx Park Subway Division terminal starting November 26, 1904 because the Harlem River Subway tunnel was not yet ready (Midnight hours via 3 Ave.). This was replaced by Subway service when the tunnel finally did open on July 9, 1905.
Next item: October 1, 1907 alternate 2 Ave. Express trains were extended to Freeman St. via 149 "ramp."
Rush hour 2 and 3 Ave. "Specials" ran from 1933-1937 that put-in and laid up via 149 ramp to & from East 180 Street. This ramp was commonly used to stage Manhattan-bound trains for 149 Street station in morning rush hours between January 17, 1916 and January 8, 1938. This practice was resumed for 3 Ave. Local put-ins between January 14, 1955 and abandonment of the Manhattan El on May 12, 1955.
The Bergen Ave. cutoff was opened July 1, 1917 and 2 Ave.-Freeman Express service replaced above (10/1/07), by-passing 149 Street except for Saturday Noon Rush hours, still via 149 ramp. When the 2 Ave. El closed in June 1940 the Bergen Ave. cut-off was served by a replacement service on 3 Avenue. This was discontinued on November 5, 1946. Return trips were operated "lite" via either Bergen Ave. cutoff or 149 ramp, if necessary.
The Bergen Ave. cutoff was supposedly demolished soon after abandonment in November 1946. The 149 ramp was likely in place until sometime in 1956.
Corrections and Clarifications Welcome!
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
-Stef
The 3rd Ave was being third tracked north of 143rd St at the same time that the Bergen Curoff was being concted. The structure south of 143rd St was on PROW. So, the line was double-decked all the way to the Harlem River Bridge and 129th St. Complex. A new 2+2 double-deck bridge replaced the older single 2 track Bridge. The 2nd Ave El entered the double deck structure at 129th St on the lower level and exited the structure at 143rd St on the lower level. There were connections to the lowere and upper levels within the double-deck complex between the river and 149th St. I still have that photo on my yahoo site that is supposed to be the demolition of the 149th (150th) St Connector structure. The structure south of 149th St remained as turnback trackage until the signals and crossings were ready for using 149th St as a terminal. I believe that it was also coordinated with the replacement of the el type third rail and wooden el cars.
The Bergen cutoff structure was removed in the 1950-52 time frame when the Botonical Gardens spur was removed from the el and the Bornx Park stub was removed from the White Plains road line.
While we are on the subject of rollsigns, who exactly puts these in? I don't think the people who do think about what they are doing. I keep seeing signs that belong on the top, ie 179th Street Jamaica etc in the middle.
How hard can this be to get correct? Duh?????
Yes. The R32 rollsign does have a reading for the JFK Express (its official term, abbreviated here as JFKX), but since I've always seen JFKX trains using R46 cars, I doubt that the JFKX readings on any of the other equipment (R32 through R68), saw any use.
I don't think that there are any signs that show higher than 50 MPH, and the fastest NYCS train I've been on had a top speed of 62.
Then there are the GT 50 signs in the 14th Street and 60th Street tunnels.
Only problem is, the haven't built it yet! : )-
Sound to me more like vapid transit than rapid transit.
Do you think that the NIMBYS will press to have the line elevated now?
Just Wondering.
Elias
"When trains travel along this route [where this accident happened], flagmen stand along the rail crossings and warn traffic of the impending train."
I wonder where they were............
it wouldn't hurt of course to have some grade protection theren, but getting anyone to invest some cash into rehabbing and protecting that line is like twisting arms.
Blame PaTurkey. He's promised work on the crap conditions facing freight in NYC for years now and has done nothing.
Exactly. You are supposed to stop at the railroad tracks when there are no gates and "Stop, Look, Listen". NO ONE ever does.
Or they could just continue to operate they way they do and hope for the best :D
Queens, brooklyn and long islands biggest export: TRASH.
Also, there are reports that the tracks evidently cross both Metropolitan and Flushing Avenues. Can you imagine the traffic jams if every car had to stop to see if that infrequent train is coming. I would support putting an overhead type warning system over those streets and perhaps the RxR signs on the side streets.
IF there had *been* a train crew, then it would not have been a run away.
Yeah, I suspect the prime mover was running, but I'll bet the throttle was in the coast position, otherwise the deadman would have stopped the train. So it was likely enough a roll-away, without its brakes set.
Don't know where the crew was or why they were not paying attention to their engine.
Years back the Reader's Digest had a story on a 'runaway' that *was* under full power, but because the engine brakes *were* set, the deadman did not function.
The engineer stepped off to help the conductor on the ground with the switches, he thought he set the engine brake, but instead had pushed the throttle up into RUN 8. Because there were some brakes set, it was slow to take off, but once it got going, it got up to speed quickly inspite of the brakes. But there the crew was with their engine, the were working the train, and they tried to catch it before it got away on them.
It is thought that the engineer was pulling a stunt: setting the engine to idle across the switch so that he could realine it and climb back on again. Didn't Work.
Out here the rule is the engineer cannot leave the engine while the train is being worked. (Assuming of course that they are using an engineer at all in the first place.) I have seen them swithc crews without stopping the engine, but they do not do that anymore either. It is always at a full stop, and crewmen must always have three point contact with the locomotive.
Elias
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/manual/gp38-2i.html
So how did this one go a mile or more before stopping? It couldn't all be a downhill roll.
Throttle off. Brakes not set. What would you call it?
Elias
For clarity, the track crosses Metropolitan Ave at grade, (near Western Beef). Flushing Ave dips below this track (as well as the tracks to Maspeth and LIC), several blocks north of Metropolitan Ave. and crosses several other streets in the area at grade.
wayne
There's a busy one on Borden Ave in LIC. Every train into and out of the LIC terminal crosses that very busy street.
But it does have pretty foolproof gates, at least.
There's a busy one on Borden Ave in LIC. Every train into and out of the LIC terminal crosses that very busy street.
But it does have pretty foolproof gates, at least.
Same for Little Neck. In any event, while many trains use that crossing, it being on the busy Port Washington line, it goes over a dead-end part of Little Neck Parkway that gets only a modest amount of vehicular traffic.
imagine the chaos if the junk M1s went with it... people would think a passenger train derailed...
Not to make a joke about a tragedy, but that sure would have been an interesting sight! I guess the last time a passenger train was on those rails was many years ago, I think the NRHS-LIST group ran a fan trip on "The Bush" way back when.
What are the numbers of the 2 GP38's the P&W has?
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/breaking_news/story/172223p-150195c.html
Peace,
ANDEE
If we had to stop and provide sympathy every time someone out there in the world got hurt nobody would ever get anything done.
Plus, I agree with your statement. Can't go around mourning the world; the world don't give a sheet.
So without being flip... we didn't say it, but got on with the other issues involved in this incident, the minutia of brakes and crossings, and other things that makes this board go.
Bsides which, if I were to offer a prayer, that would offend a whole other bunch of people around here.
Elias
This begs the question, what was LIRR doing at fresh pond? I can probably answer that myself: dropping off more dead MU cars and DEs for CP to pick up (which they did, CP went over hell gate today around 5pm, with about 6 dead M1s heading for scrap, and a DE on the tail of the train)
Yes, Fresh Pond Station does look like something out of the 1920's : Depression era hoboes riding the rails. Or, American Beat icon Jack Kerouac, and his friend, Neal Cassady, riding the rails in the '40's and '50's. Or Woody Guthrie and the young Bob Dylan. An American tradition of freedom, and of looking for a lost frontier.
Four people were injured, two critically, when a freight train car struck their vehicles in Queens.
Details are sketchy but Fire Department officials said the incident was reported at 2:11 p-m at 59-29 55th Street in Maspeth. It appeared that a train car became loose from the rest of the train and meandered down the tracks.
Officials initially said the train belonged to the New York and Atlantic Railway, but the rail company says the train is not theirs, but belongs to the Long Island Railroad. L-I-R-R had no immediate comment.
The freight train car struck two vehicles. Two men were critically injured and taken to Elmhurst Hospital. Two other people were taken to the hospital in stable condition their genders were not known.
The incident sparked a minor fire which was declared under control at 3:08 p-m.
Wouldn't the cars have BIE?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Is that why a cut of loose lumber cars rolled some 30 miles out here in California last year?
You are WRONG. Freight cars brakes do NOT always apply when they are disconnected fromt he rest of a train.
Don't you know? They're heroes!!!at least in their own mind!! They probably thought there was something to steal in the cab.
Don't you know? They're heroes!!!at least in their own mind!!They probably thought there was something to steal in the cab.
*****
Was the "Heroes" sarcasm really needed?
Was that last line of fine print directed at all firemen? Do you know of instances, from your career or otherwise, that indicate theft was more a motive for entering that cab, than dealing with the emergency at hand?
Forgive me if your entire post was in jest, it didn't come across that way.
Sounds like a no-brainer to me.
In other words, even a cop is qualified to do it :-)
With apologies to Sarge and a bunch of members of my own family who at one time or another in their life have worn a law enforcement badge.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
As an EMT I had a training session with the BN. They took us on the equipment and showed us where the cutoffs are. For Locomotives, Fridge cars, and tank car safety.
Elias
They are not set when cars are being switched.
Yard moves are frequently made without air, and with all cars free to roll, as it would be impossible to pump them up and release them continiously.
Once a train is assembled and made ready for movement, then yes, they pump up the brake line, and then a separation would but both halves of the train into BIE.
Even Subway cars parked in the yard must have so many hand brakes set, for overnight the air resivours will bleed off, and the brakes will release.
Elias
CG
$#!T HAPPENS
BTW, the accident occurred on a portion of the Bushwick branch where the grade crossing is 'exempt' because of its little use. Hence, no gated crossing or street markings of any kind to alert motorists should there be a 'runaway'.
Riverhead in 1991 on a Greenport scoot:
Fresh Pond Station on a LIC local in 1994
On an LIRR freight in 1995 at Bellport
On an LIRR freight in 1995 at Blue Point:
As a result of that, to this day, school buses in New York State are required to come to a complete stop at grade crossings, even if there are gates.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Tour/charter buses do not have to stop if the bus is empty. At the transit agency where I drive, we do not have to stop if we are the only one on the bus AND we are NOT in service.
Elias
Around 1978, the crossings at Morgan Avenue, Varick Avenue, Onderdonk Avenue, Woodward Avenue, 54th Street and 55th Street still had at least crossbucks, and possibly gates as well. None of these crossings, including the one on Metro, currently has anything more than round yellow RxR warning signs- if even that. Freight traffic had obviously diminished to the point where any other devices were deemed unneccesary.
People unfamiliar with the area may not be aware of the presence of an active rail line. Those who are familiar are probably aware of how infrequent rail traffic has become. So either way, no one driving across the tracks would expect an unoccupied diesel locomotive to come out of nowhere without warning.
There could have been many more than four injuries, to say nothing of multiple fatalities. Stopped traffic routinely sits on the tracks at the Metro Avenue crossing during times of heavy traffic- which is virtually any time. In this instance, no vehicles on Metro were struck. Talk about luck! The other streets crossing the tracks at grade are side streets in comparison, albeit with heavy local traffic- especially trucks due to the heavy industrial nature of the area.
NY & Atl came along Dec 10, 1996
Peace,
ANDEE
Also am wondering if LIRR will hand off jobs to NY & Atl sooner in the future, i.e. why was LIRR equip. up on Fremont ? They could have left the job at Fresh Pond ! Or NY & Atl could have picked it up at Morris Park, et.
What did it say that made it so funny?
We get off a train going towards Addison Road. Sign flashes:
BLUE LINE
ADDISON ROAD
4 CAR TRAIN
ARRIVING
It does this for awhile, then alternates between
BLUE LINE
ADDISON ROAD
4 CAR TRAIN
ARRIVING
and
BLUE LINE
ADDISON ROAD
4 CAR TRAIN
3 MINUTES
It would generally flash the arriving announcement 2 or 3 times, then the 3 minute announcement. After about a minute and a half, it began to announce a delay on the Blue and Orange Lines toward Addison and New Carrollton. It then switched to this:
BLUE LINE
ADDISON ROAD
4 CAR TRAIN
##########
And about a minute after that, the next train to Addison Road came.
I think that the PIMS was a bit confused...
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Really cool show.
-Chris
Robert
My fave from today:
Anyone have numbers they can post on the share of bus riders that involve a transfer to/from the subway, and how this varies by line? Flipping it around, what the stations that receive the most bus transfers? We can all guess, but can anyone post facts?
"Thank you for contributing to SubTalk! Please remember these important points while posting here:
"Avoid flamage - messages will be deleted in the case of ad hominem attacks and insults.
"Avoid general tourism questions. There are other web sites for that.
"This isn't an official site of any transit agency, especially MTA New York City Transit. "
On this board, the "guy def to our pleas" hasn't actually insulted an individual (although in posting this I might be doing so :(
They don't seem to be tourists either.
So please realize, it's the response to a post that causes someone to be banned, not necessarily the original message. Just IGNORE a post the the nature previously described. IGNORANCE to a troll's posts will discourage them, since they would not have emotionally profited from watching the board tear itself apart.
Please take heed to what I am saying even though I've been on this board only since July 2003.
edk256
And I agree 100% with you.
The problem isn't the so-called "trolls" but the fools who respond to them.
If they got NO response, they would disappear in short order. They are only looking for attention.
Today was the first time I responded to a "def" post, and if the attitude doesn't change, it will be the last.
Because you are a troll? And you want your rights?
BTW, trolls do not go away when ignored. That is a fallacy. When they are ignored, they increase their number of posts, thus mutating into a floodnet in the process.
Michael
Washington, DC
-Chris
Do you have plans to head to NY once the IRT MOD trip lurks around here in April or is that no for you?
Very good example of integrating housing and walkable communities with public transportation!
Chuck
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Thanks Brian, BTW, for posting the photos. I don't get to ride my old line all that often anymore. People don't seem to like one line "Thank You" posts, so I'd figure I'd sneak it in here.
***Disclaimer - Never do such a thing! Bad! Riding between cars is not recommended and dangerous! People do stupid things when they are a kid.
You're welcome.
Like walk an abandoned el structure with a live third rail?
The Siemens propulsion is different from the standard R143 propulsion. Listen (from TransiTalk)
When will the first R-142S arrive
Do you know if the R142S will be any different from the existing model? Will any flaws in the car that have been noticed from the powers that be, be corrected in this order? Or will they just be using the same plans as the previous model to crank out another few cars...thanks!
Peace,
ANDEE
It also says the cars can be configured in 4, 5, 6, 9 and 11 car sets. If they can do a 4, why can't they do an 8?
It is called the Lackawanna Cutoff because it bypassed the original DL&W main line that passed through places like Hackettstown, Washington, Belvidere (IIRC) and Portland, PA.
That is not entirely correct, many portions are in fact depressed in deep cuts...there is even a tunnel (which was planned as a cut). The whole plan for the Cuttoff involved cutting through the mountains and then using the material from the cuts to fill in the valleys.
Hey, see ya Sunday for the CBMGTT opening!
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Well, what we have here is essentially a 2.6 billion dollar Disney Railroad. Who wants to bet that after all is said and done and the sate pays for all this that Disney will do something to undercut the service and render it a complete boondoggle.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df03082004.shtml#Floridainches
Not to mention even thinking of using the "JetTrain" for 125-mph service is wasteful when there are extant diesels capable of that speed and faster. Why not just buy off NY State's RTL III Turboliners to do the job in that case? Not to mention, why limit the system to 125 mph at all if it is going to be a non-freight-allowing line?
The board selected the Interstate 4 alignment for its route between the city pairs, the so-called Greeneway route, which the board selected on October 27. The board has not yet determined if the route will be within the median or outside, but in any event, the trains will make a stop at Disney World as well as Lakeland.
Staffers from the authority’s contract committee has been discussing the project with the Orlando-Orange County Expressway Authority and Walt Disney World, Share said, and those negotiations are continuing.
“We’re contemplating a three-party agreement,” Share said, “between the authority, Bombardier and Walt Disney World.” It would include “Right-of-way, in terms of the station, and how we get to and from the station. Beyond just the transportation needs, what kind of station, parking, etc., would we have?”
Share added they were also concerned with ridership support. He referred to a letter from the Disney Corp. to the authority in which Disney said it had committed to abandoning their bus service from Orange international Airport to Walt Disney World when the project begins.
Promotion plans from both Bombardier and Disney are also on the table, he said. He noted the talks “are right where they should be at this stage.”
Disney has offered to donate the required land for the station at Disney World. The board has not yet looked at any alternate sites, although some may be available that are near Disney property.
Board treasurer Lee Chira, from Orlando, opined the authority is “committed to pursue the Disney activity, until we get a point of departure with Disney.” He added, “Looking at an alternative at this point throws a bad light on the negotiations with Disney.”
Mark
I tried asking that question during the "demo" in Tampa, about using different equipment at that time. I think I might have asked a saleslady instead of the engineers because I really didn't get an answer to my question. That might be why there was some talk about that authority pushing Bombardier to go with electric.
I just think someone hasn't been hiring the right lobbyist for this.
* The unit cost of the TEL + 6 acela coaches is unstated, and from numbers I've read, BIG. We're talking 10+ million a locomotive here (and, frankly, the prime mover alone might be a 7 figure number, especially if it's flight rated), two per set.
* The TEL is totally unproven. It's had no revenue service history, and it's based off a design that's historically been poor performing. Sure it was towed around, ran a few times under power, and did well out in CO. So did the Acelas, and plenty of other disasters.
* Gas turbine train operating costs are generally somewhere between high and obnoxiously high.
* Less important - they can't run through tunnels.
It the TEL can't cut it at 150mph, BBD would be faced with an embaressing situation - suck up and deal, or electrify, or drop speeds and use conventional diesels. None would look good.
Florida seems to think this 'starter line' will be extended into a system, so it begs the question of why even go with the JetTrain, since the system will ultimately be electrified anyway. I think that, plus the technical drawbacks to the thing, are why FL doesn't think highly of it.
Folks. Disney is looking for anything that will bring more customers as their stock has taken a nose-dive. Disney will do nothing to undercut the service and my only worry is rail line being too focused on providing service for one client.
If this plan is ever going to get passage, they're going to need Disney's help big time. The Bush Republican Neocons have the upper hand right now and unless I see different, this rail line will NOT get off the ground without money from Disney.
But then again, Disney says it will guarentee everyone will use the train from the airport. All they need to do is black out the windows on that segment of the trip until they're on disney property, and they can then be truely inclusive.
Mark
Since the start of a residential renaissance in 1999, after decades of little or no new residential development downtown, hundreds of apartment units and more than 1,500 condominium units are now being marketed, built or planned.
The latest entry is a 323-unit tower to be called The Vue at Lake Eola. It would go up just north of the former Four Points Sheraton hotel -- itself in the process of being converted to condos under the name The Metropolitan at Lake Eola.
The Vue at Lake Eola site is on the southwest corner of Rosalind's intersection with Robinson, across the street from the Eola Park Center office building.
Plans filed with the Orlando Planning Department note that the 1.74-acre site is under contract to be purchased from Dr. Phillips Inc. The developers said Monday they plan to build 323 apartments, 6,000 square feet of retail space, a 660-space parking garage and a 3,000-square-foot health club.
Churchill Development Group LLC of Orlando and Westminster Partners LLC of Chicago have joined forces to do the project, said Erik Moskowitz, a principal in Westminster.
.....
Five other condo towers are in various stages of work in the downtown core: The 18-story Sanctuary is under construction at Church Street and Eola Drive; the Sanctuary's developers are planning a 12-story building nearby, tentatively called Star Tower; a 31-story tower called 55 West could be under construction later this year atop the Church Street Market retail-restaurant complex; a residential highrise is part of The Plaza, a three-building complex planned for the Jaymont Block at Church Street and Orange Avenue; and downtown's first luxury-apartment highrise, The Waverly, is in the middle of a condo conversion on Central Boulevard.
...
It's not if they're goign to get rail, it's when. Commuter rail will help, but light rail is coming too. Urban transportation is tops, and good ole Buddy Dyer was just re-elected!
:) :) :) :)
Show your support for Roy Disney and Stanley Gold by going here.
Actually, out here we are single tracked.
The route between Mandan and Dickinson is about 100 miles.
There are at least 10 passing sidings, each capable of holding a 1+ mile long train, and the Taylor siding (no where near the middle of the run, but with a large grain elevator complex near by) capable of holding two such trains!
These sidings of course, used to be much shorter, and were in town, but now there are no sidings in town, they are all miles from any "station" since blocking a whole town is considered to be bad manners.
Meets are set up so that trains have the least amount of waiting time. A meet might be planned for Tayor, but if the westbound is running late, the meet will be moved to Antelope.
The railroad (on this line) attempts to hold westbound trains in favor of eastbound trains which is a major departure from ancient protocols which always made the westbound superior over an equal eastbound. ut the westbounds are usually empty hoppers, and the eastbounds are full unit coal trains. It takes more energy to stop and start those trains, and the railroad, ever thoughtful about its bottom lion, takes this into consideration whenever possible.
Elias
Mark
Coal trains very frequently run on a 10 to 15 minute headway!
Granted, what they are doing is running slugs of 3 or 4 trains eastbound, and then running another batch westbound, but still all of those sidings *are* necessary.
I constructed a string timetable for my model railroad, (for the WHOLE RAILROAD, not just the part that I modled. for the purposes of these timetables, the only passing sidings were at the stations, and stations were 1 to 2 hours apart. It made for a very limited operating schedule, but the I was more intersted in the asthetics of the model and of the time table, and was not really worried about running an efficient railroad.
When you actualy struggle with constructing this timetable (keeping an account of crew hours, which I did do, with the intent of getting the crew home for supper as well whenever possible...) you will see how onerous this becomes.
To run a flexible, profitable railroad... the more sidings you have for passing the better off you are! We are now talking about sidings that are about a mile and a half long, and no more than ten miles apart.
Our line sees about 18 to 24 trains a day, factor in maintenance and repair, weather, wheel and defect detectors, local trains, and other unforseen things (and slow order zones)... Well if they needed much more capacity they would need to double track it.
As it is the coal trains (and some locally originating unit grain trains) run on our branch (the former NP mane lion) and the faster goods trains run on the northern line (the former GN mane lion).
Elias
$1,419.55 million. Or almost $1.5 BILLION dollars.
I didn't include the numbers of the final sped up I-4 construction in Orlando as the tax drive there failed. Plans are fuzzy right now. But i'm sure it would end up being the same price as HSR.
Where will I get my shortfall from? I figure I'll add the $700million in water infrastructure Tampa Bay installed in the last 3 years to accomodate new residents who love to tax themselves to death. Because that Water isn't for me.
And that's where the money will come from. Because 1.5billion bucks later, I-4 still still sucks enough to make everyone want HSR.
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Well it's better than the Bush Rx of amputating them.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df03082004.shtml#Doc
And Mike Thomas says it best!
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Seee!!
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df03082004.shtml#Floridagovernor
What Gallagher doesn't mention is the fact that the one time costs of building the rail line is equal to how much florida loses YEARLY by not enforcing it's corporate tax structure and exemptions(that's a good lobbyist). There's a petition going around to fix that, though I lost mine, and I don't get paid millions so I have no problem sending it in.
Another thing I like about Gallagher is the projects he mentions that will not be funded because of lack of funds. The funny part is the projects he mentions are so tiny, and some of them are already funded with toll revenue!!! Plus, if they really funded things, which they dont' that well, every county wouldn't be opting for a higher local gas tax, wouldn't have so many penny sale taxes passed(I could list 2 dozen), and every major plan, or even artery that's built fresh is TOLLED! Imagine a non-highway with a toll plaza!
Yea I'm really going to vote for this dude in '06, haha.
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...and avoids being hit by lightning.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df03082004.shtml#Mineta
********************************************************************
At least somebody does.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df03082004.shtml#Georgia
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Freaky Canadians.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df03082004.shtml#In
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If for the sole reason that the operators would probably be under a different contract than the bus people.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df03082004.shtml#600
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In addition to the terrorist bombers it seems...
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df03082004.shtml#French
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Jesus, this is horrible...if evil greedy Railroad managers wasn't enough.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df03082004.shtml#Engine
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All the more reason to go there.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df03082004.shtml#Secaucus
I was joined by one railfan friend. The surprise when I asked for the Bouquet Pass is that it is sold only with a ticket to the Philadelphia Flower Show - a $22 ticket discounted to $21. Fortunately, My wife and I already planned to attend the flower show on Thursday, so I bought the two tickets and got the two Bouquet Passes.
I started at PATCO's Collingswood station, a four minute walk from my house.
We got our passes before 9:30, so we began our excursion on the Market Street subway, then took Route 100, the P&W, to Radnor, photographing the Almond Joys in the 69th Street Yard.
We walked the short distance to the Radnor train station and got R5 #519 to Thorndale, getting some photos from the train along the way.
Paoli tower
old railroad bridge
Thorn tower
Sperry Rail Service vehicle was photographed from the Thorndale station platform.
More photos were taken from R5 train #554 from Thorndale to 30th Street.
Norfolk Southern freight train
with caboose
SEPTA gel train
Paoli tower again
GREX pneumatic side-dumping gondola train
(self-propelled)
SEPTA AEM7 #2302
SEPTA AEM7 #2301
At 30th Street we took R3 train #345 to Media. Train 345 had 2 Silverliner II's and a SL III.
I photographed the interesting Lansdowne station sign and an inbound R3 from train 345.
Part 2 to follow eventually
Nice to see they are rehabilitating the Dump Siding at OVERBROOK, that was OoS for a long while.
BTW, as I type that SRS car is giving the operator at THORN quite a headache. Every part of the interlocking needs to be scanned and THORN is a 6 track full complete crossover. Each movement needs a Rule 241 authorized by the dispatcher and absolute block protection. The only saving grace is that THORN interlocking is b/t two remote interlockings that THORN controls so only one operator need be involved, but it is still a pain in the ass. My tower buddy noted that when "SRS Night" rolls around the last shift guys always come down with the flu. SRS Night isn't schedules, but you can tell when it's gettin close.
Hmmm, wonder what the Gel train was doing...I forget, is it Self-Powered?
Thanks for the info on the old Trenton Cutoff bridge.
After a short wait, we took the R6 to Temple U, where 5 minutes later we caught the Fox Chase to Chestnut Hill West R8.
The Chestnut Hill Local was delayed on the NEC to let a late Long Distance Amtrak train move ahead of it onto track 2. Amtrak was doing track work at North Philly. The delay for Amtrak resulted in a nine minute late arrival at Chestnut Hill West (PRR), leaving insufficient time to catch the next Chestnut Hill Local from Chestnut Hill East (RDG).
Our two-car Chestnut Hill train was coupled to four cars already at the station to form a 6-car Fox Chase train. We detrained at 30th Street and saw another Silverliner II/III train.
At this point we called it a day and took the Subway-Surface trolley to 15th Street, the Broad Street Subway to Walnut/Locust, and home on PATCO.
Walnut/Locust
PATCO
next PATCO train
For those who didn't know, the station signs now read "Walnut-Locust/Avenue of the Arts". Guess I wasn't TOO far off (I'd predicted a suffix for Academy of Music). The surname is printed in the same style as Pennsylvania Convetion Center at RRD's Market East Station and MFL's 11th Street, as well as similar fashion to the Temple University surname further up the line at Cecil B. Moore. IOW, they have it in smaller print, centered under the station name. Thankfully, with the running "band" of signage at the OTHER green station to border City Hall, we won't likely see ANOTHER Convention Center surname. Then again, if they actually renovate Race-Vine at all (Erie is taking long enough, though the raised platform surface hints towards preparations for hadicapped access elevators), it'd be a miracle.
Speaking of City Hall (and to a similar extent, North Philadelphia), just when is it they plan to do ANYTHING to them other than let them get dirtier? (Seriously, even if timing doesn't matter, I'll jump to a Ridge train just to avoid CH these days) Aren't both of them supposed to get new signs and a much-needed bath? (among other things, i.e. tile columns (NP), elevators, additional lights)
Wow, that's the longest SEPTA regional rail train EVER!
We detrained at 30th Street and saw another Silverliner II/III train.
That's always exciting.
Thanks for all the pics.
Your pal,
Fred
Good question, one that I had intended to address.
When I took the two photos of the Broad Street Subway train at Walnut/Locust the train operator was watching me, but exhibited no reaction. Then when I started up the stairs I saw a Philly police officer at the top who had also been watching. As I walked past him he directed his attention elsewhere.
It was a refreshing difference from some experiences that I've had and witnessed in New York.
Your pal,
Fred
Sounds like they were practicing discretion. I'm assuming you weren't acting shifty like you were hiding anything.
Thanks for the R3 pics.
Nearly everyone seems to recognize these posts as being of (at best) questionable truthfulness, and even if true rather pointless for discussion purposes.
The thing I find interesting is the responses. Why is it that we can't seem to just leave these meaningless posts alone.
So here are some statistics --
DefJef has made 10 posts since February 26th. He has never posted to a thread during that time after his initial post.
SubTalkers have 312 follow-up posts to those 10 initial posts. 95 of these 312 have been replies directly to DefJef's original post. 112 different posters have replied in these threads.
Everyone knows that he's just trolling for responses and looking to get people riled up. So who keeps feeding him?
I now present the first "SubTalk Troll Feeder Awards"
In the category of most replies directly to a DefJef posting, the nominees are:
5 Brooklyn Local
Elias
Newkirk Plaza David
NimbyKiller
...And the winner is -- with responses to 6 of DefJef's 10 posts -- Elias.
In the category of most postings contributed to DefJef threads, the nominees are:
Elias
Newkirk Plaza David
Michalovic
Peter Rosa
DefJef
...And the winner is -- with 17 contributions -- Peter Rosa.
There's only one way to stop this. If we can't control ourselves, then we have nothing to complain about.
CG
Hey, did I ever respond to him at all? Cause I don't think I did. The whole thing about annoying or OT threads is that, just like anything in print, if you just don't read it, it will loose it's power and go away. If you have trouble remembering that here's a little jingle:
To stop those trollers, one-two-three,
Here's a fresh new way that's trouble-free.
It's got Paul Anka's guarantee...[winks]
Guarantee void in Tennessee.
Just don't read. Just don't read.
Just don't read. Just don't read.
Just don't read. Just don't read.
I'd like to thank my family, and friends, and the members of the Academy ...
You are quite correct. I give DefJef an appropriate response when one seems called for: He has started some interesting discussions. Sometimes I have responded with a humorous reply, and if he is off the wall, he gets a visit from the Woolyburger. (Does anybody here *remember* the Wollyburger~ The Gary Stevens Show on WMCA, back when the Good Guys played music! ? )
Troll or not, Wild off the wall rants or not, he has not flamed anybody here, and I see no reason why he should not be treated with respect, and with appropriate (and polite) replies.
Elias
Mark
He fooled you again. Someone who rides those cars on the (2) knows that they don't run on the (3) [except for one time long ago]. Therefore, the fact that he is still being seemingly intentionally incorrect points still to the TROLL theory.
He may not have done this intentionally. Many (I'd even venture to say most) people who are not obsessed with accuracy don't distinguish between the 2 and the 3, or the 4 and the 5, or until recently the N and the R, if they only ride that segment where the two lines are identical. I know I often take a ride on the Lex express and don't know afterwards if it was a 4 or a 5. And we know he's not obsessed with accuracy.
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=672937
Some things never change.
The great irony in 3 posts coming in 4th place is that it shows that we're all guilty of rewarding troll behavior (for some of us, not necessarily with this instance but often in others).
CG
He raises a few provocative issues, but I, for one, have no use for someone who makes up a bunch of imaginary scenarios involving himself and attempts to pass them off as factual, e.g. the nude woman, the Queens train with the doors open, the Manhattan Bridge slowdown, etc.
Because he operates in that devious manner, he should not expect respectful replies to his bulls**t "factually challenged" posts.
From the New York Times website / AP Wire:
Published: March 11, 2004
Filed at 3:58 a.m. ET
MADRID, Spain (AP) -- Powerful explosions ripped through three Madrid train stations during Thursday morning rush hour, killing at least 60 people and injuring dozens just days before national elections.
There was no claim of responsibility, but suspicions fell on the armed Basque separatist group ETA. The Interior Ministry said that at least 60 killed were killed.
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/international/AP-Spain-Explosion.html
pic 1
pic 2
Mark
As Elvis Costello sings, "It's always something cruel that laughter drowns."
Mark
Wish I knew more about Spanish railways.
If you're really interested in Spanish railways, Robert Schwandl's book Metros in Spain includes a good bit of information on commuter rail in several Spanish cities, as well as their metros.
Mark
Anyway, the railroad and/or emergency crew did the prudent thing by cutting off the electricity from the train wires :-)
Here is a commuter rail map of Madrid. (on RENFE site, might be overloaded today)
Here is a Metro Map from nycsubway.org which can show you the metro lines between the commuter rail stations.
Madrid has a couple of main line rail stations that handle long distance trains; these are Chamartin in the north (metro line 10, 3rd stop from the north terminal) and Atocha in the south (on metro line 1 about 12 stops from the south terminal). The main line station is between the metro stops "Atocha" and "Atocha RENFE". Long and medium distance passenger/commuter trains use these stations. The AVE high speed train to Sevilla uses Atocha station and the future high speed to Barcelona uses Chamartin. RENFE is Spain's national railroad system.
In Madrid, RENFE operates a commputer system called Cercanias, which is sort of like Madrid's version of the Paris RER or if you combined NJT, LIRR, and MNRR into a through-running system. The Cercanias system has a north-south tunnel connecting Atocha and Chamartin and a a loop around the west side of Madrid via Principe Pio. The Cercanias trains are EMU like Paris' RER trains etc.
The other two stations affected were Santa Eugenia and El Pozo which are on a Cercanias line feeding into Atocha from the eastern suburbs.
-Dave
Yikes, they seem to think they're still fighting the Falange! Basque country is one of the most economically well-off regions of Spain, forming along with Catalunya the country's industrial heartland. Basque country is where Castillians go to find good-paying jobs and better futures. The Basques have it good, probably most Basques realize this, but it seems a few idiodic blowhards are bent on ruining it for everyone by insisting on carrying on the fight against a long-dead enemy.
Mark
Mark
I don't mind trying to find humor is humorless situations. I'm a big fan of the novel Catch-22. But this terrible event just happened...it's a little too recent to start cracking jokes. As strange as it is...time enables us to see some humor in an event.
Mark
1945: Hitler dies
1968: The Producers opens in theaters
For some historical events, it may not be possible to find any humor.
No, eventually everyone who was around at that time dies and there is no longer any mourning.
Masny Armenians are still very angry and grieving about the 1918 Turkish massacre even though there are very few survivors remaining.
But the plague inspires fear in no one.
Fair enough but that's for one event in history.
No, eventually everyone who was around at that time dies and there is no longer any mourning.
I wouldn't necessarily say that there will NO longer be any mourning but what about future generations?
World War II was the deadliest and most grievous event in history. If people can make fun of it after some time, people can make fun of anything.
I will now take that question and answer it as if it was intended for me: Yes
Peace,
ANDEE
Yeah, so you have some shirt that pokes fun at the Black Death...something that happened hundreds of years ago. That's totally different than poking fun at an attack that happened yesterday. Time DOES heal wounds, and if you don't recognize that...then I'm feel sorry for you. Maybe you're not mature yet, and you're just a young kid or teenager. Hopefully you'll develop a sense for these things as you grow older.
Unlike the majority of people I refuse to give emotional lip service to people that I have absolutely no connection to. I'd rather be insensitive than a hypocrite.
BTW you do realize that this was not a tragity, it was an attack by a power-hungry criminal enterprize.
You might be missing his point though. I see it clearly. Every day people come to an unplanned demise via various and sundry methods. Soon enough, we will all take that ride. The sadness felt by friends and relatives over these events is going to be the same regardless of cause.
In fact, if I have any connection to such an event, I'm offended by casual expressions of supposed "sympathy" towards the victim from strangers. Doesn't help a damn bit, nobody who knew the person needs to be reminded of their loss. They know ALL about it, thanks.
The attack in Madrid is worthy of discussion here because of it happening on a train system. I would much rather read of the effects engendered by it. Disruptions in service, train re-routings, proposed reconstruction efforts, posts from daily riders of the system describing the man-on-the-train p.o.v.
We could probably just assume everyone agrees that we are all feeling anger and dismay about this attack
Service disruptions weren't too significant, judging by news pictures from the next day. Trains were running right past at least one of the bombed trains, giving the passengers a perfect (though likely unwelcome) view of the devastation.
I doubt any of the others except Catalonia would want independence.
For a retired teacher, he has an amazing problem with reading comprehension. He often infers things that aren't there. In a thread that specifically involved Germany, I once said he was prejudiced against Germans. For proof that I was wrong he talked about all his friendships with Americans of German ancestry (who aren't the same thing as Germans by any means).
But yeah, the old BS Meter on THIS end is just whacking the walls and bending the pin back and forth ... I'm not an AMERICAN, I'm a NEW YORKER! (hint: It was *US* that got attacked, NOT East Mudhole, LI - Mister Shrub) ... NEW YORK got attacked, and Council Bluffs got da money. Shoved my tax rate right through the left porthole. :(
So, just so folks get the realities of today (New Paltz mayor not withstanding) ... here's the lab report on observations ... as a "reformed Barry Goldwater Republican" myself ... the whole thing's gone all to hell and the entire blue orb in space suffers. But here's how it works ...
Things you have to believe to be a Republican today:
Being a drug addict is a moral failing and a crime, unless you're a
conservative radio host. Then its an illness and you need our
prayers for your recovery.
The United States should get out of the United Nations, and our
highest national priority is enforcing U.N. resolutions against
Iraq.
Government should relax regulation of Big Business and Big Money
but crack down on individuals who use marijuana to relieve the
pain of illness.
"Standing Tall for America" means firing your workers and moving
their jobs to India.
A woman can't be trusted with decisions about her own body, but
mulit-national corporations can make decisions affecting all
mankind without regulation.
Jesus loves you and shares your hatred of homosexuals and Hilary
Clinton.
The best way to improve military morale is to praise the troops in
speeches while slashing veterans' benefits and combat pay.
Group sex and drug use are degenerate sins unless you someday run
for governor of California as a Republican.
If condoms are kept out of schools, adolescents won't have sex.
A good way to fight terrorism is to belittle our long-time allies,
then demand their cooperation and money.
HMOs and insurance companies have the interest of the public at
heart.
Providing health care to all Iraqis is sound policy. Providing
health care for all Americans is socialism.
Global warming and tobacco's link to cancer are junk science, but
creationism should be taught in schools.
Saddam was a good guy when Reagan armed him, a bad guy when Bush's daddy made war on him, a good guy when Cheney did business with
him and a bad guy when Bush needed a 'we can't find Bin Laden' diversion.
A president lying about an extramarital affair is an impeachable
offense. A president lying to enlist support for a war in which
thousands die is solid defense policy.
The public has a right to know about Hilary's cattle trades, but
George Bush's driving record is none of our business.
You support states' rights, which means Attorney General John
Ashcroft can tell states what local voter initiatives they have a
right to adopt.
What Bill Clinton did in the 1960s is of vital national interest,
but what Bush did in the 1980s is irrelevent.
Trade with Cuba is wrong because they're communist, but trade with
China and Vietnam is vital to a spirit of international harmony.
Whatta country! :-\
The wierd thing is everything you wrote is exactly what I feel.
This, of course, makes me a Democrat.
I note that if everybody would live by those 10 little rules we were given so long ago we would be a lot better off and the world would be a nicer place.
However, I suspect I'm preaching to the choir.
But yeah, to us old "slide-rule" types, this is just "RANDOM" ... I cannot FATHOM how folks are just buying up the spin. Then again, I guess I'm NOT. Mass hysteria? MIND control? Wal*Mart?
OH NO! Another CONSPIRACY THEORY! (folks don't GET the fact that Unca Selkirk takes life about as seriously as Dave Letterman does ON AIR!) But hey ... as far as *I* am concerned, I *did* the civil service sidewalk act - WORKED for politicians ... PARTICIPATED in SERIOUS COVERUPS ... spared SERIOUS "press" for BOTH major parties ... covered butt, EXPOSED butt ... folks get honked off with "Unca Selkirk duz politics" ... reality is that I did *BOTH* sides ... got to see the ENTIRE "scope" of sidewalk acts ...
As a former journalist, got to see ALL sides ... that's why I say "they're ALL crooks" - only difference is WHO they rob. but GIVEN a choice, I'd RATHER vote for those who will leave US alone. :)
As I've quoted TOO often in the past here:
Alexander Tyler, (in his 1770 book, 'Cycle of Democracy' )
"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising them the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over a lousy fiscal responsibility, always followed by a dictatorship. The average of the world's great civilizations before they decline has been 200 years.
These nations have progressed in this sequence: From bondage to
spiritual faith; from spiritual faith to great courage; from courage to liberty; from liberty to abundance; from abundance to selfishness; from selfishness to complacency; from complacency to apathy; from apathy to dependency; from dependency back again to bondage."
Then we have Republicans, who just don't GET it. :(
By 5 years of a benign dictatorship.
After all, look at how much good "McCain-Feingold's" done. :)
What was that supposed to do?
"The Irishman now our contempt is beneath
He sleeps in his boots and he lies through his teeth
He blows up policemen, or so I have heard
And blames it on Cromwell and William the Third!"
Now you're doing it too. What did I ever say that would cause you to address those comments to me?
FYI Mel Brooks found homour in Hitler and South Park found homour in AIDS. The ETA has been around for 23.5 years so I can find homour in them.
For anyone with familiarity with the Atchoa station, it is a rather large area, similar in scope to Penn Station, albeit covering more area and track. Much like Penn, Atchoa handles not only commuter rail, but also long distance rail.
I am quite certain that many on this board share their condolences and sympathies with the people of Madrid and Spain over this tragedy.
Regards,
Mark Valera
Here's another article:
http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20040311022609990005
It's been said that insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. (It's attributed to Albert Einstein, but I can't confirm it.) I wonder if the terrorists ever ask themselves what they've accomplished in terms of advancing their causes in decades of attacks?
Mark
Terrorist groups can be comical.
or care more about the train damage and/or possible damage to the station.
The people are just as dead whatever the damage to the trains or stations, damage to infrastructure just affects everyone else. I should also point out that this discussion was in a different thread over a different topic.
Within the last couple of weeks a number of youths have died in car accidents on Long Island. What? You haven't mentioned this??
You haven't told us how tragic it was??!!!!"
FOR SHAME!!
My teacher said it may be that the terrorists(if it is ETA) are trying to make a mocary of the current leader b/c the election is very close.
I had to go down to DC yesterday morning for a law school open house, and as the 0525 Metroliner (train #101) got underway I was praying for both the families of those massacred in Madrid and for myself and the rest of the riders aboard the train. You could say, then, that I was deeply concerned that something similar could happen here, especially since Amtrak has gotten a pittance (compared with the airlines) for security concerns from the states and the feds.
Chuck Greene
Some years ago, I started creating this fantasy city (name not important), complete with street-patterns, buildings, names, history and...a subway system.
This city, as you will find out, looks a lot like New York, which has been my example for good reasons. The centre, for instance, is on an island (just like Manhattan), with two rivers on each side separating it from the main land. The grid-pattern is also a characteristic feature of my city, but you will also find some 'European' elements in it. As you will see, it is still far from complete; many of the streets still have to be filled in; anyway, some months ago I suddenly found it to be complete enough to install a metro-network.
Now, this network hasn't just sprung up overnight. It has taken me quite some years - and some effort - to get to the present-day result. But now that I am this far, I would like to share it with you, and I would be glad to hear any comments.
This is the link:
http://www.transitgallery.com/data/072b030ba126b2f4b2374f342be9ed44/full_223_p8797.gif
Enjoy (but don't copy!)
- Alargule
http://www.transitgallery.com/data/072b030ba126b2f4b2374f342be9ed44/full_223_p8798.jpg
Oh, and btw, I've enjoyed making fantasy city maps on Paint. I like to see how cities blossom and grow (and, occasionally, decay), so that is often the focus of my fantasy mapmaking. I have occasionally made fantasy subway maps and city maps on Paint as well. Thus, I have one suggestion for you: shade the water areas in blue, and make sure your blue lines don't get confused with the watery areas. That'll make the landmasses clearer in appearance.
-Richard R.-
http://www.transitgallery.com/showpic.php?aid=223&pid=8798&uuid=60
http://www.transitgallery.com/data/072b030ba126b2f4b2374f342be9ed44/full_225_p8806.gif
city name: Maysoo
number of inhabitants: 18,9 million; 31,3 in metr. area.
Central Island measures 27 km in length and max. 6 km in width (I'm European, so I use the metric system).
concerning the subway system:
12 trunk routes (each with its own respective color), 33 services (both local and express); total length not determined yet, the same goes for the number of stations.
Age: first line was constructed 174 years 'ago'. Older lines mainly use cut-and-cover, later lines use tubes (about twice as large in diameter as 'the' Tube, since every tube is double-tracked). Most north-south lines are four track, east-west lines tend to be 2-track.
The average distance between station on the 'Victoria-line-blue' line (in the middle, the east-west line) in the center (the island), is 600 meters (0,4 miles approx.). This will give you an idea of the size of the total system.
Well, that's all for now, any questions, please ask them!
avid
No: lower the streets.
http://www.absence-of-fear.de/hosted/rmn/
->Off-Topic->Bombenanschlag in Madrid
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3500702.stm
I am quite certain that many on this board share their condolences and sympathies with the people of Madrid and Spain over this tragedy.
Regards,
Mark Valera
As far as the A-Division goes, its interesting how the route with the oldest equipment (R62s) ranked as the cleanest.
What are your opinions?
However, a slow speed order prevented the train from really taking off. The de-accel is excellent though.
MP3, 1.5MB
Your pal,
Fred
Chuck Greene
I suggest buying stock in Kleenex very soon :)
http://www.transitgallery.com/showpic.php?aid=224&pid=8800&uuid=60
http://www.transitgallery.com/showpic.php?uuid=60&aid=225&pid=8801
http://www.transitgallery.com/data/072b030ba126b2f4b2374f342be9ed44/full_225_p8806.gif
Wrong sign as viewed from one side
Same sign from different angle on other side
The sign is correct only from 12:40 AM to 5 AM. But what about the other 19 hours and 40 minutes?
DUH!
Funny thing is I use this station every day and did not notice that error at all! But the new floor tile is looking nice. :)
BBC Map On Madrid Attacks Locations
BBC News
"Ten bombs exploded without warning on trains at three stations during the morning rush hour, killing 190 people and wounding more than 1,200.
Mr Aznar made it clear he believed the armed Basque separatist group Eta was behind the co-ordinated blasts.
But a political group close to Eta denied that it carried out the attacks.
Campaigning for Sunday's general election in Spain has been suspended, and three days of national mourning have been declared."
Mark
Spanish soldiers are equipped with weapons made in Spain. Workers at the CETME plant are fed by Spanish farmers and paid through the taxes of Spanish bussinesspersons who work in Madrid. Therefore aren't those bussinesspersons riding to work valid targets?
This is why the "innocent person" arguement against terrorism is a piss poor one. You'll do much better attacking the terrorists' goals of establishing a planetwide Islamic fundamentalist theocracy and the extermination of the Jewish race.
The number of R142 cars required on the 4 during AM/PM rush is 260. However, IIRC, the roster of R142s on the 4 is
7061-7180
1101-1250.
The total is only 270 cars. 260 of 270 cars are running with tight dispatchment. I think more trains are migrating from 2/5 to 4.
Thanks for the info.
Chaohwa
270 R142
80 R142A
70 R62
Total 420 cars on #4 line & today i saw least 5 set of R62 while working downtown this morning.
Chuck
About 10:40 a.m. I started making my way uptown on Bway with another friend from work, amidst cries of "get out of the city !" from the law, yet finding all subway stations closed. After lunching at Blimpie's at 4th Avenue and 13th Street, we made our way to Union Square, where a policeman said there was subway service on 6th Avenue. A call to Metro Info disclosed that there was limited Metro North service out of GCT. My friend and I made our way to 14th St. and 6th Avenue and caught an uptown F train. I got off at 42nd St. while my friend continued on to Queens : Woodhaven Blvd. Slattery Plaza, where he caught a Green Line bus home to Woodhaven. I walked to GCT and made a 3 p.m. Hudson Line train. I was home almost exactly at 4 p.m.
I definately feel lucky because I was just layed off of my job at the old Bankers Trust building-directly across the street from 2 WTC. I used to work the grave yard shift and would get off work at 8am. However, I would never go straight home, instead me and a couple of co-workers would always go to the company cafeteria and have breakfast, then stop at the farmers' market outside of 2 WTC. So I would have been right there when those planes hit and knowing me, I would have stock around to see what would happen next.
He normally takes the "4" to Utica Ave and walk 9 blocks. Well he really had to walk blocks that day.
I was in an office building at the foot of Lower Manhattan that day. When the first plane hit, word went through the building, but we all thought it was a lear jet or something that went off course. We got a TV used for presentations working as best we could (no antenna). Then BOOM! It was like a big lightning strike within a few blocks. That's when the shock took hold. Just when we started talking about why the military wasn't protecting us, we found the Pentagon itself had been hit. We were ordered out to the street, but stuff was coming down, then we went back inside. Then a second BOOM. Then the third. Then the long walk home in the darkness.
My wife had it worst. She was closer, and saw 2 WTC going down from her building. She called me and said 60,000 people just died, but she doesn't remember seeing it. Then the building filled with smoke and she had to evacuate to a building next door, and she was almost caught outside when 1 WTC went down. Then she was locked down in the basement with her co-workers until 3pm.
730 days each in '02, '03
19+31+30+31 days in Sept-Dec '01 starting the count on 9/12/01
31+29+11 in '04
= 912
If you just count the days *between* 9/11 and 3/11 it's 911.
His stuff is about as useful as used toilet paper, and as reliable as television.
It's great as a parlor game, that's about it.
Matthew Mummert
On 9/8/06 at 9:11AM, the 160s will roll past Cortlandt St. on their way to Stillwell's shops for revenue service/test prepping. :^) (Thanks to Chris R27-30's graciously supplied site for the date calculator).
Well then ... let's write this one up ...
"Garden of the world near the new city
You will see, sooner and later, great changes made
The gods will make it appear to the humans
From one hundred will become more than a thousand"
It *must* be true, here it is on the INTERNET! :)
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=535&ncid=535&e=2&u=/ap/20040311/ap_on_re_eu/spain_tape_found_9
CG
Islamic extremists have a long standing grievance that southern Spain, once under Moorish rule, fell to the Christians.
This sort of attack, like a truck bomb, is simply unstoppable if enough people are willing to blow themselves up.
If only someone would actually "come back from the dead". Then we'd know. And get on with it.
Why don't we teach both of those buggers about what it is to be a civilised country with a secular (or at least wishy-washy Anglican) state?
Thank God. Israel needs all the help it can get.
Israel withdrew from Lebanon a few years ago.
They claimed that Spain was bombed because Spain supported the United States against Bin Laden and Sadaam, and promised to bring Spanish troops home from those conflicts.
Assuming this occurs, it will be evidence that if Al Qaeda bombs other countries, they will withdraw opposition to it. Al Qaeda will be free to attack the U.S. while the rest of the world looks the other way.
How much of this possibility is due to the decision to go it alone against Iraq, in the fact of world opinion, could be an issue here. Bottom line, the world was united behind us against Al Qaeda after September 11th. Not anymore.
It didn't work.
No, I won't do this here. I'm sick of arguing with idiots who do not support Israel or attempt to define this argument as a struggle between 2 morally ambigious factions.
The Golan Heights was sparsely populated and strategic. They lost it in a war, they should live with it. I don't see Mexico fighting to take back the southwest and California.
Every now and then some hotheaded politicians in Mexico talk about regaining the lost territories of the U.S. Southwest. Obviously, it's not the sort of idea that gets too far.
Many of those hotheads are north of the Rio Grande. A few even hold seats in the California State Assembly.
No offense to Salaam and Sea Beach Fred but I say let them have it back!!!
Neither of which is internationally recognised.
LOL! I don't think either of those three counties could give a crap whether YOU or the rest of the internationals recognizes their treaties!
It's only occupied territories to some. To Israel and to anyone with a brain it's "DISPUTED TERRITORIES".
Give it up.
MOOPISH!
:-O Bubble Boy
Ronald REAGAN put up Osama ... AND Saddam. :(
C'mon bro ... engage brain, inspect other thread somewhere back around this one when I explained it all ... check out the OTHER stuff I got into ... if you're willing to search for the last 24 hours of "Selkirk TREK" (my posts) then you'll find a *RICH* compost of me blasting a LUNATIC ESemblyman from BROOKLYN for being a YUTZ, DEMOCRAP by the bye - since you STILL seem to think I'm one wing or another ... GEEZ!
But buddy ... spend some time, feel me out among many posts lately (hint: use "search" and drag up mine) and you'll see ... I'm full of ALL of them ... and so far, no politico or party has YET to kiss me and give me a RING. For all the rings YOU got on the phone when you was a "candy-date" did ANYBODY kiss ya? NOPE. Did any of your party workers get ON THEIR KNEES? NOPE. (no wonder republicans are jealous of Bill Clinton, he ***GOT*** some - heh) And STILL you take me seriously! SHAME on you, Unca Fred! "We're ALL bozos on this bus!" (google the quote - "Firesign theater.").
Seriously ... read the links provided here ... DEWD! I *WAS* a republican! SERIOUSLY! I *RAN* as a REPUBLICAN as MAYOR OF NEW PALTZ, NY ... I LOST BY 600 VOTES! How "600 VOLT" *ON TOPIC*! :)
Then look at what the PRESENT New Paltz mayor's been up to. Heh. I'm loving EVERY minute of this Orwellian sideshow. :)
But here - link to what I offered as PROOF that your boy RAYGUN and the REPUBLICANS blew up the World Trade Center ... I won't even bother with conspiracy theories - after all, Bubba got away with killing all those state troopers, and Hillary got away with selling swampland. And Ken Starr got NOWHERE, aside from a joeblob. Whatta country ...
But PLEASE have a look at the links - they INCLUDE no other bastion of "faith and truth" than NEWSMAX itsself ...
< A HREF="http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=675414">http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=675414
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=675414
Based on? We do know that Clinton was so busy getting his lewinskies that when Somalia offered twice to turn Osama bin Laden over tot he USA, he declined saying we didn't have the legal justification. Legal justification = "Not now, I'm coming!"
And the right wing regards NEWSMAX as the ULTIMATE source of truth:
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/2/4/05600.shtml
(beware though - Newsmax is a spamhaus - visit and you WILL be spammed)
In the words of Ronald Reagan, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. It just depends on whose side you're on.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Osama_bin_Laden
Mujahdeen ... rule number one of covert ops - when you're done playing with your political toys, put them AWAY or TAKE them out. :(
I traded Nieuw Amsterdam for Fort Orange (Albany), so the conspiracy continues. For anyone interested in the Dutch cartel along the Hudson, this page might prove interesting:
http://www.cr.nps.gov/nr/travel/kingston/colonization.htm
Er is geen vlucht. :)
---Sweedish Chef (now it's a northern Europe invasion.)
Up ya gi gi wit a wawa brush!
Regards,
Jimmy
While the U.S. markets were able to shake off much of the weakness associated with the bombings through the afternoon in belief that the Basque separatist ETA movement was to blame, news of Al Qaeda taking responsibility for the attacks which claimed the lives of over 170 people in Spain, served as a rude awakening for the market, which plummeted in response
In other words, 180+ innocent train passengers get murdered by terrorists with funny names who play Jai-Alai, it's no big deal. May they rest in peace, let's go on with our lives. 180+ innocent train passengers get murdered by terrorists with towels on their heads and who ride camels, it is a big deal. Let's panic and liquidate our portfolios. The train passengers, needless to say, are no more dead than they would have been with an ETA bomb.
All of this goes to show, as I've been saying for years, that stock market investors are ignorant schmucks.
I normally don't do things like this, but with the resurrection of the 9/11 thread, as well as this - along with discussions I've had with former Navy pilots who saw the "angle of attack" when the planes hit the twin towers (an "impossible manevuer" without special training) something's smelling MIGHTY funny here - therefore, I'd like to recommend a book ...
Title: Disturbing questions that must be fully investigated now
What REALLY happened on 9/11? In "The New Pearl Harbor: Disturbing
Questions about the Bush Administration and 9/11," David Ray Griffin
compiles a compelling case against the so-called official account,
inviting us to consider the evidence and think it through for
ourselves.
Griffin explores in depth the disastrous failures on that day to
execute well-established FAA and military standard operating
procedures designed to protect us from air attack. He considers the
physical evidence, the shifting and conflicting official accounts,
inconsistencies, and actions and statements explainable only as either
gross incompetence or official complicity. He meticulously presents
extensive evidence, documentation, and reasoning from diverse
researchers, linking it all together into something far more powerful
-- a clear and dispassionately reasoned framework for a conclusive
investigation.
With eight levels of possible government complicity in mind, he
thoroughly examines arguments for and against both official and
revisionist accounts. He often follows each line of reasoning to its
apparent conclusion, only to challenge it with evidence or conclusions
from some unexpected quarter, and then to challenge that, and so on,
until everything is connected in a tightly reasoned network of
alternative explanations, somewhat reminiscent of television detective
Lt. Columbo's relentless "Just one other thing . . ." approach.
His bottom line: Congress, the press, and our best investigative
journalists need to conduct a full, thorough, well-funded
investigation of what really happened on 9/11. "The New Pearl Harbor"
jump-starts that work with a research agenda complete with questions
and specific experiments to answer them. Which of the conflicting
storylines of Griffin's branching arguments our country will follow
into history will depend on what evidence the investigation proves
true. Griffin charts multiple, mutually reinforcing paths to most
conclusions, each based on different events and evidence. The full
investigation of even one of these may well prove sufficient to
resolving the issue.
Buy this book and read it carefully, even with only a 30% open mind as
Richard Falk urges in his forward. Examine the evidence. Draw your
own conclusions. If you come away as we did, seriously questioning
the official account and compelled to take action, demand a full
investigation. Send a copy to your newspaper, call your Congressional
delegation, tell friends and family, and spread the word widely.
The future of our troubled democracy depends on finding out what
really happened on 9/11.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"David Ray Griffin has done admirable and painstaking research in
reviewing the mysteries surrounding the 9-11 attacks. It is the most
persuasive argument I have seen for further investigation of the Bush
administration's relationship to that historic and troubling event."
-- Howard Zinn, author of A People's History of the United States
THE NEW PEARL HARBOR: DISTURBING QUESTIONS ABOUT THE BUSH
ADMINISTRATION AND 9/11
by David Ray Griffin
Foreword by Richard Falk
Acknowledgments
INTRODUCTION: The New Pearl Harbor
PART I THE EVENTS OF 9/11 ITSELF
1. Flights 11 and 175: How Could the Hijackers' Missions Have
Succeeded?
2. Flight 77: Was It Really the Aircraft that Struck the Pentagon?
3. Flight 93: Was It the One Flight that was Shot Down?
4. The President's Behavior: Why Did He Act as He Did?
PART II: THE LARGER CONTEXT
5. Did U.S. Officials Have Advance Information about 9/11?
6. Did U.S. Officials Obstruct Investigations Prior to 9/11?
7. Did U.S. Officials Have Reasons for Allowing 9/11?
8. Did U.S. Officials Block Captures and Investigations after 9/11?
PART III: CONCLUSION:
9. Is Complicity by U.S. Officials the Best Explanation?
10. The Need for a Full Investigation
Notes
Index
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Book and ordering information:
http://www.interlinkbooks.com/New_Pearl_Harbor.html
The New Pearl Harbor: Disturbing Questions about the Bush
Administration and 9/11
by David Ray Griffin
Interlink Publishing Group
March 2004
Foreword by Richard Falk
"It will be painful, and disturbing, to turn the pages of this
thoughtful and meticulously researched book. But turn we must. For we
owe the truth to those who died, and nothing less." -- Colleen Kelly,
sister of Bill Kelly, Jr., who was killed in the North Tower of the
World Trade Center on 9/11, and Co-Founder of September 11th Families
for Peaceful Tomorrows.
From a skeptical vantage-point, but also taking to heart the classic
idea that those who benefit from a crime ought to at least be
investigated, Griffin, an eminent philosopher and theologian, brings
together an account of the national tragedy that is far more logical
than the one we've been asked to believe. Gathering stories from the
mainstream press, reports from other countries, the work of other
researchers, and the contradictory words of members of the Bush
administration themselves, Griffin presents a case that leaves very
little doubt that the attacks of 9/11 need to be further investigated.
The disturbing questions emerge from every part of the story, from
every angle, until it is impossible not to seriously doubt the
official story, and suspect its architects of enormous deception. Long
a teacher of ethics and systematic theology, Griffin writes with
compelling and passionate logic, urging readers to draw their own
conclusions from the evidence outlined. The New Pearl Harbor rings
with the conviction that it is possible, even today, to search for the
truth; it is a stirring call that we demand a real investigation into
what happened on 9/11.
David Ray Griffin has been a professor of philosophy of religion and
theology at the Claremont School of Theology in California for over 30
years. He is co-director of the Center for Process Studies there and
the author or editor of over 20 books.
But I don't feel sorry for him.
Because what his administration has done will diminish American life for years to come, and not much of the pain from it has really been felt yet, though we are begining to feel it. He hasn't gotten the proper blame for those decisions.
So blaming Bush for 9/11 isn't fair in some ways, but the sum total of blame may be fair in others.
Seriously, read the book ... libraries have copies but that book is on the "Homeland Defense watchlist" ...
By the way, if you're into WWII (and I read one WWII book after another) I am reading an excellent book on the bombing of Dresden that goes against all the contemporary "Allies can commit atrocities, too, look at Dresden" theories. It supplies proff that Dresden was a valid military target, the casualty figures were very inflated, and a number of Jews escaped "resettlement" due to the bombing. I recommend the book.
I wasn't too excited about Kerry either until "Mister Microphone" did his number day before yesterday ... now I'm impressed. C'mon, bro ... you had a civil service title - TRY and tell me that they're *NOT* crooks, either side of the aisle ... the way that the one party in charge of congress and the White House were *SO* desperate to hobble and then kill the 9/11 committee speaks VOLUMES to me ...
Ken Starr would be a good start. I'll bet he's twiddling his thumbs with nothing better to do. :)
Flown by Elvis, who had been hiding out for 24 years in 76th Street.
CG
2.5 years =
30 months =
130 2/7 weeks =
and
912 days
from the day the world changed forever.
Those Al-Quaeda mathematicians were off by one...
It's worth noting that (1) ETA tried to bomb a train in Madrid on Christmas Eve, but the bomb(s) didn't go off; (2) the type of explosive used in today's bombing appears to be a type that ETA has used before, and (3) the al-Qaeda splinter group that claimed credit for the bombing also claimed credit for last summer's blackout in New York.
9/11, in New York and America
3/11, in Spain and Europe
Condidence? Possibly, but now is a date some year falling on June 11, or any month that falls on the 11th, be next for this ruthless organization? We hope not.
Just curious you put New York AND America? What is that all about, did New York break succeed or somthing?
WTF?
Mark
A few days ago, I was on a B train that had to sit in the "dash" for a few minutes behind a D that couldn't get into West 4th. I think there was also an F waiting in parallel.
This morning, my southbound B went BIE approaching West 4th, landing about two carlengths into the station. (I wasn't standing at the window -- I was sitting in the nearest bench -- but I don't think the train passed a red signal, or at least not one that had been red for more than a second or two. AFAIK there are no timers around there, and given my wait at Columbus Circle, our leader was probably already on the bridge.)
Is something up with the signals around there? Could these possibly be aftereffects of the power shutdown on February 29?
You presume incorrectly. The only thing they share is ConEd coming in off the street. And that is multiple fed (ie:redundant backup)
A rather confusing post:
B train that had to sit in the "dash" for
Where's "the dash"?
think there was also an F waiting in parallel
That's no good. He should have been waiting in FULL SERVICE.
Could these possibly be aftereffects of the power shutdown on
February 29?
You mean that third-rail incident? Not likely.
What aspect (no pun intended) of these signal problems makes
you think they are power-related? Did you see any dark signals?
The Dash is the nickname for the speedy stretch of 6th Avenue express trackage between W. 4th and 34th.
SubTalk jargon for the 6th Avenue express.
That's no good. He should have been waiting in FULL SERVICE.
On the offchance that this wasn't a joke, I meant the F was on the local track roughly adjacent to where we were on the express track.
You mean that third-rail incident? Not likely.
Wasn't power cut from the signals as well?
What aspect (no pun intended) of these signal problems makes
you think they are power-related? Did you see any dark signals?
I didn't see any signals, since I was sitting in the seat across from the T/O's cab, trying to write lecture notes. A kid was standing at the window, but I didn't ask him what he saw.
I'm afraid I can't answer your question without violating federal law.
Surely you jest. The only federal laws restricting speech are (a) against revealing classified information, of which there is not likely to be any hanging around in the subway system, (b) lying to a federal agent, for which posting on subtalk doesn't qualify, or (c) committing perjury, for which posting on subtalk also doesn't qualify.
You are entitled to listen to your radio (say a scanner)
but you are forbidden to repeat communications that were not directed to you.
Elias
Right. NB one was signal trouble, and I can only guess that the other one wasn't.
Unless Edison hiccups in a major way, with at least 2 seperate feeds dropping, you won't have multi-track signal problems. Also the NB problem was NOT a power problem.
It's nice to avoid a mess like this, it's another to say you are happy that you avoided it. Imagine if your father worked as a T/O on that deadly train, what would you say?
Means nothing. Plenty of stupid people at Sci in my day.
Actually there were other reasons, which I'm sure doesn't go on there anymore.
How much the place has changed in six years...
Oh, and the pain! No redbirds to ride home on!
Neither is Sci.
As if EMS would be able to do anything.
Yes we would.
Our patients frequently do include the survivors, even if it is only to provide a safe place for decompression.
Incidents like this can raise pulse and blood pressure, which could lead to other issues, especially if pre-existing conditions are present. We frequently see people in a panic attack where respirations (hyperventilation) can cause a blackout. The best on-the-scene treatment for that is to be removed from the scene to the ambulance vehicle. Sometimes oxygen may be necessary. While we are not psysicians or psychologists, we can listen, and we can recommend transport to a hospital if it is indicated.
In such a situation the crew can be transported from the scene to the hospital, and would not be deemed to have left company property nor of abandoning the site or equipment.
I am used to seeing smoshed and mangled body parts. Most people are not, and the sight of them can make them very sick.
Elias
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
So, since myself and a number of others found this entertaining nd interesting, i felt like giving this a trry again.
So... Heres what happened:
Due to an accident at the coned plant at 14/D, no trains can go through the Union Square station. The lex is closed from BBCH to GCT, The Broadway BMT is closed from Canal to 34, andf the L is closed from Bedford into manhattan.
How would you run service?
It's believable.
On the Broadwya line, it was mostly station lighting and stuff. Trains were running through, not keying by signals that I can remember (the one trip I did that day on the R we got to 36st about 4 minutes late, and that was due to congestion and confusion in Brooklyn due to the GO that was running). It later turned to chaos as the E was rerouted to 36 St because 8th was completely out. Don't know about 6th or the IRT.
I would run the W between 34st and Astoria and the R between 34st and 71av-Forest Hills. The N would run between 86st and Canal via the tunnel. The J train would run local from Jamaica Center to 95st-Bay Ridge. The Q would run between Brighton Beach and Canal. The M could be extended to Bay Pkwy.
The L would run to Bedford where a shuttle bus would take passengers to Marcy Av to catch the J or M into manhattan. They can transfer at Essex to the F uptown.
There would be extra service where possible on the 6th Ave,7th Av, and 8th Av lines.
R: Switch to express tracks after 36th Street (Queens) and run through 63rd Street Tunnel. Trains terminate at 2nd Avenue
5: Run on 7th Avenue Express, terminating at Utica
4: Run from Woodlawn to 125th Street
6: Run to Grand Central ONLY
M: Extended to 95th Street to cover for R
I will think of what to do with the L, Q, N, W later
If you would work for the MTA, you would have that time.
Assuming this is a relatively long-term closure (more than a week or so), here's what I'd probably do:
3: Regular daytime service. Nights, shuttle between Atlantic and New Lots (express north of Franklin).
4: Between Woodlawn and 86th. Bronx passengers are encouraged to use the Concourse line for Manhattan service.
5: Rerouted via the West Side (the 2, 3, and 5 can all fit; they already do at Rogers). All trains run express in Brooklyn to Utica; no Flatbush service. Late nights, Bronx shuttle.
6: Between Pelham Bay Park/Parkchester and Grand Central. Some trains terminate at 86th.
7: All GO's suspending Manhattan service are postponed.
S-42: Overnight service restored.
S-DT: Brooklyn Bridge to Borough Hall. Rush hours, extended to Atlantic. Late nights, extended to New Lots via local. Runs Livonia-based R-62's.
A: Rush hour service reduced to accomodate the Q; Lefferts service eliminated.
C: Extended to Lefferts.
D: Local in the Bronx at all times, to better accomodate displaced 4 passengers and to make room for the Q.
G: Weekend Queens Boulevard service suspended.
J/Z: Weekdays, express between Broadway Junction and Marcy; otherwise unchanged.
L: Between Bedford and Broadway Junction only.
M: Rerouted via Sea Beach to 86th. Full service at all times. Runs ENY-based R-42's and CIY-based R-40(M)'s.
N: Between Ditmars and Herald Square only. Runs Jamaica-based R-46's.
Q: Rerouted via 6th Avenue express and CPW (express weekdays, local other times) to 145th. Rush hours, some trains extended to 207th. (Is the orange bullet on the latest rollsigns?)
R: North segment, between Continental and Times Square (bypassing 49th), except nights. South segment, between Canal and 95th (some rush hour trains terminate at Whitehall), full-time, running CIY-based R-68(A)'s and R-40(M)'s.
V: Extended to Canarsie via Williamsburg Bridge, including weekends. Late nights, between Essex and Canarsie only. Runs Jamaica-based R-32's and ENY-based R-143's (with paper signs taped to the windows).
W: No service.
MetroCard transfer established between City Hall BMT and Park Place IRT; south IRT entrance converted to full-time.
All else unchanged.
I think that covers everything.
BBCH = Brooklyn Bridge-City Hall
Absolutely insane. Why would Flatbush service be suspended because of problems at Union Square? Or do you only want to spite Flatbush because of the service it deprives from you?
(4) 125th - Woodlawn
(5) via West Side, local in Brooklyn to Flatbush
(6)<6> terminates at 42nd St
(7)<7> unchanged
(S) unchanged
(A)(C)(E)(S) unchanged
(B) full time - nights, weekends local in Brooklyn - to BPB except nights
(D)(F) unchanged
(V) extended to Canarsie (not late nights)
(J)(Z) to 95th St via 4th Av Lcl
(M) to 86th St via Sea Beach
(L) Bedford - Broadway Jct
(S) Broadway Jct LL - Canarsie (nights only)
(N) no service
(Q) via 6th Exp, 63rd St, Queens Lcl to Continental (weekdays only)
(R) no service
(W) cut back to 34th St
(S) unchanged
2: No changes
3: Suspeneded. Use 2 and rerouted 5 to 135th st for shuttle bus. Use 5 towards Brooklyn to New Lots.
4: Woodlawn to 149th st GC or 125th St. Use 6 local from 125th st to as far south as Grand Central. Brooklyn 4 operates from Utica or New Lots to Brooklyn-Bridge City Hall. Institue walking transfer from Brooklyn Bridge to Park Place for 2 and rerouted 5 service, as well as exisiting 8th Ave service.
5: Rerouted via 7th Ave to New Lots at all times except nights, local in Brooklyn at all times. Nights use 4 shuttle.
6: Pelham Bay Park to 42nd st only.
7: Not affected
A: Not affected
B: Brighton Beach to 145th or BPB 24/7, replacing Q service in Brooklyn.
C: Not affected
D: Not affected
E: Not affected
F: Not affected
G: Don't bother
J: JC to 95th st, replacing R service in Brooklyn. Use N for Lower Manhattan via. Montague. Operate 24/7 to Bay Ridge.
N: Sea Beach, via. Montague rathold (sorry Fred!) to Whitehall St as turnaround point. Implement walking transfer for pay-per-ride Metrocard customers to 1/9 at South Ferry station.
Q: Suspended entire length, use B for Brighton local service
R: Forest Hills to 34th st/6th Ave only, same 18 hour time frame as it is now running.
W: Astoria to Times Sqaure, via. express from 57/7 to Times Square, on a 24/7 basis.
V: No changes
L-Canarsie to Lorimer (why dump everyone of at a stranded station as Bedford Ave?), add more G service while institute a walking transfer from Broadway on the G to either Hewes or Lorimer on the J/M. Add another shuttle bus to cover Bedford then on to Marcy (assuming Marcy Ave renovations are completed)
B-same plan as before but from 10 PM to 6 AM, terminate at West 4th st from Brooklyn (shades of the new B in 1967), with D service switching to F tracks at Broadway Lafayette then back on normal D after leaving 34th st. B uses both express tracks north of West 4th Street as relays.
L: Bedford to Canrsie, Brooklyn
N: Ditmars, Queens to 34 St, Manhattan
Q: Prospect Park to Brighton Beach, Brooklyn
R: Forest Hills, Queens to 95 St, Brooklyn via 63 St/6 Av Exp/Manhattan Bridge
W: Whitehall St, Manhattan to 86 St, Brooklyn
S: Canal St, Manhattan to Whitehall St, Manhattan
S: DeKalb Av to Prospect Park, Brooklyn
Z: Queens Plaza to Canarsie via 8 Av
Or run the 4 to 149th. Why tangle things up when you don't have to?
1/9: No change
2: Increased service to cover for 5 service
3: Runs on a slightly reduced headway to make room for the extra 2 trains
4: Runs in two sections:
125 St-Woodlawn
Brooklyn Bridge-Utica Av with every other train to New Lots
5: Suspended south of 42 St
6: Suspended south of 42 St
7: No change
A: No change
B: No change
C: No change
D: No change
E: No change
F: Extra service
G: No change
J: Eliminate skip stop from Myrtle-Eastern Pkwy
L: Run two shuttle buses from Lorimer St-one to Bedford and one to Hewes St [since Marcy is closed heading into Manhattan]. Use M14 for Manhattan service.
M: Runs to 9 Av at all times
N: Runs in two sections:
Shuttle from Herald Sq-Astoria [single track operation from TS-34]
Runs from 86 St-Canal
a)Runs between 86 St and Canal St but VIA BRIDGE. I believe there is a diamond crossover near Prince unless that is rendered useless then.....
b) Runs between 86 St and Canal St via tunnel
Q:Normal to Dekalb then replaces V train and runs via 6 Av instead of Broadway so the orange Q returns. Makes all V stops along 6 Av & Queens Blvd. Runs all times
R: Runs from 95 St-Canal St via tunnel
Franklin shuttle:No change. However extend via Brighton if there is a need
Rockaway Park shuttle: No change
Times Sq shuttle: No change
V: Replaced by Q train
W: No service
Z: Expanded service in the rush hour, eliminate skip stop from Myrtle-Eastern Pkwy and run it express via Broadway in the peak direction.
G: Seeing that the Q may need help along Queens Blvd, runs to Forest Hills all times except nights and uses full 8 car(R46)/10 car trains
J: Could replace R trains in Brooklyn altogether
L: Bedford-Rockaway Parkway. Passengers are encouraged to use the M at Myrtle or the V (see below).
N: Shuttles 34-Astoria and Pacific-86th
Q: Rerouted via 6th Avenue/63rd Street and Queens Blvd local to FH/71. This is to make up for the loss of the R in Queens.
R: Canal Street to 95th Street
W: suspended
V: Reduced to 8 cars of 60 footers and extended to Rockaway Parkway as soon as possible to allow for more convenient transfers for L passengers.
3: 24/7 operation
4: Woodlawn-86th Street LL and Utica-Brooklyn Bridge
5: Rerouted via 7th Avenue, local in Brooklyn
6: Grand Central-Pelham Bay Park
B local in brooklyn to 145 24/7
D local in bronx
E rerouted via culver all times
F via 53, via bridge, dekalb bypass, 4th av exp, Sea beach, nights via 63
G Cntl-Church, nights shortened to ELY
J/Z extended to BR-95 all times
L- Bedford-BJ
N- Astoria-34 only
Q- Brighton express- to canal via tunnel
R- via 63 to 57, except nights
FS- Extended to Brighton beach, all times except hights
V to canarsie all times,
W suspended
3- all times, otherwise same
4- Wdlwn- GCT Local all times
6- PBP- GCT Local all times
8- 238-86 EXP Rush hours only
10- Utica-BBCH, cut to atlantic nights
IRT Division
1-No change on the 1/9,2,3 7th Avenue Line services
2-Reroute the 5 between 149th St/Grand Concourse and Nevins Street via the 7th Avenue Line. Middays 5 will terminate at Utica Avenue making local stops in Brooklyn
3-The 4 will operate from Utica or New Lots Ave to Brooklyn Bridge via its regular route. 4 trains from Woodlawn will make all stops to 125th Street then deadhead to 86th Street and turn around
4-The 6 will operate from Pelham Bay Park to Grand Central making all stops.
5-No changes on the 7 Line
6-42nd Shuttle will operate all night
BMT/IND Division
1-No change on the A,C,E 8th Avenue Line services
2-L Train will operate from Rockaway Parkway to Bedford Avenue only
3-J Trains will be extended from Broad Street to 95th St/4th Ave making all local stops. Skip/Stop service will be suspended. Extra cars will come from the B and W Lines.
4-N Trains will operate from Ditmars Blvd/Astoria to 34th Street only making all stops. The W will be suspended. In Brooklyn the N Line will operate from 86th Street to City Hall only and then turn around at Canal Street in the center tracks which deadhead from the layup area.
5-R Train will be suspended. The V train will operate at all times between 71st/Continental Ave and 2nd Avenue with additonal trains using the R Line equipment
6-The B Train will operate between Brighton Beach and Bedford Park Blvd at all times. During off peak hours alternate B trains from Brooklyn will terminate at 145th Street. The B will use the Q Line trains. Alternate trains operate express peak direction between Prospect Park and Brighton Beach
7-The Q Train will be suspended with the equipment be utilized on the B Train
8-No changes on the D,F,G,M and the Shuttle routes
Department of Buses changes
1-B-51 will operate 24 hours a day
2- x-27 and x-28 will operate 24 hours a day
Any commnets
Thank You
Currently with the Marcy Ave Manhattan bound station closed it does not pay to modify the B-39 service. Most likely any passengers will go over to the 53rd Street E and V service to get to Manhattan via the G Line or by the B-61 bus than will go downtown via the J and M routes.
Just my opinion
Thnak You
N Astoria to Herald Sq.
R Astoria to Times Sq.
Q routed up 6th Ave via 53rd to Continental Ave.
V, W: cancelled completely.
4 Utica to Brooklyn Bridge, Grand Central to Woodlawn.
5 Rerouted via the West Side IRT, otherwise unchanged.
6 Pelham Bay Park to Grand Central.
With this routing, what purpose does the V serve? (For that matter, I doubt the F, Q, and V could all share the track between 34th and 53rd...)
N Astoria to Herald Sq.
R Forest Hills to Times Sq.
Q routed up 6th Ave via 53rd to Continental Ave.
V, W: cancelled completely.
4 Utica to Brooklyn Bridge, Grand Central to Woodlawn.
5 Rerouted via the West Side IRT, otherwise unchanged.
6 Pelham Bay Park to Grand Central.
J, M extended to 86th St and 95th St to compensate for loss of N/R service in Brooklyn.
N Astoria to Herald Sq.
R Forest Hills to Times Sq.
Q routed up 6th Ave via 53rd to Continental Ave.
V, W: cancelled completely.
4 Utica to Brooklyn Bridge, Grand Central to Woodlawn.
5 Rerouted via the West Side IRT, otherwise unchanged.
6 Pelham Bay Park to Grand Central.
L Terminates at Bedford Ave. Rush hour M service increased
J, M extended to 86th St and 95th St to compensate for loss of N/R service in Brooklyn.
N Astoria to Herald Sq.
R Forest Hills to Times Sq.
Q routed up 6th Ave via 53rd to Continental Ave.
V, W: cancelled completely.
4 Utica to Brooklyn Bridge, Grand Central to Woodlawn.
5 Rerouted via the West Side IRT, otherwise unchanged.
6 Pelham Bay Park to Grand Central.
1, 2, 3, 7, 9, S: REMAIN THE SAME
4: Woodlwan-125th Street
5: Running on the 2, terminating at Utica
6: Pelham Bay Park or E. 177 Street-GCT
A, C, E: REMAIN THE SAME
B, D: REMAIN THE SAME
F, V: REMAIN THE SAME
J, M, Z: REMAIN THE SAME
S: REMAIN THE SAME
R: 95th Street-Manny B-6th Avenue-63rd Street-Queens Blvd. Local-71st/Continental
N: Canal Street-Montague Tunnel-86th Street
Q: Atlantic-Brighton Beach (transfer to the B for Manhattan service)
W: Astoria-34th Street/Herald Square
L: Rockaway Parkway-Bedford Avenue
M: Metropolitan Avenue - 86th Street, 24/7
N: Ditmars Boulevard - 34th Street/Herald Square with some trains turning at 42nd Street/Times Square.
Q: 71 Avenue - Brighton Beach via 63 St/6 Ave
R: Canal Street - 95th Street, 24/7
W: Service suspended
Service levels adjusted appropriately.
Did I miss anything?
E trains run from Inwood to Jamacia Center with extra B and D service
A and C trains run from Park PLace to Euclid and from Park Place to Rockaway
Lexington trains from the north terminate at GCT and trains from the south terminate at Brooklyn Bridge with shuttle buses in between
W4th St style incidents happen at W4th St, 149/GC and Atlantic-Pacific. No tracks through these complexes would be usable. What would you guys do with this one?
A: 207th Street-34th Street/Penn Station, Lefferts Boulevard/Rockaways-Jay Street
B: Bedford Park Boulevard-34th Street/Herald Square
C: CANCELLED
D: 205th Street-34th Street/Hearld Square
E,J: via J, terminate at Broad
F: CANCELLED
G: Extended to 179th Street and Avenue X to cover for F cancellation
L: NO CHANGES
M: Metropolitan-DeKalb
N,R: Southbound trains terminate at DeKalb, Northbound trains terminate at 9th Street
Q: Prospect Park-Brighton Beach
S: NO CHANGES
V: Through 63rd Street, terminating at 34th Street
W: NO CHANGES
Z: Cancelled
1,9: NO CHANGES
2: 241st Street-Jackson Avenue, Franklin Avenue-Flatbush Avenue
3: 148th Street/Lenox Terminal-14th Street, New Lots-Franklin Avenue
4: Woodlawn-161st Street/Yankee Stadium, New Lots-Franklin Avenue
5: Dyre Avenue-Jackson Avenue
6: Pelham Bay Park/E. 177th Street-Bowling Green
7: NO CHANGES
S: NO CHANGES
A Division:
*Special*
-S/A's hand out G.O. transfers at all Jerome Ave line stations good at all Concourse (B/D) line stations
-Bergen Street closed
(1) Broadway Local
242nd Street-Van Cortlandt Park to South Ferry
All stops
All times
Normal headways
(2) White Plains Road Local
241st Street-Wakefield to 3rd Avenue/149th Street
All stops
All times
Slightly reduced service
(3) 7 Avenue Express
148th Street to 14th Street
Express 96-14 Streets
6 AM-Midnight daily
Normal headways
(3) 7 Avenue Local
148th Street to Fulton Street
All stops
Midnight-6 AM daily
Normal headways
(4) Jerome Avenue Local
Woodlawn to 167th Street
All stops
All times
Slightly reduced service
(4) Lexington Avenue Express
138th Street to Borough Hall
Express in Manhattan except nights
All times
Slightly reduced service
(5) Dyre Avenue Shuttle
Dyre Avenue to East 180th Street
All stops
All times
Slightly reduced service
(6) Lexington Avenue Local/Pelham Local
Parkchester to Brooklyn Bridge
All stops
6AM-Midnight daily
Increased service
Pelham Bay Park to Brooklyn Bridge
All stops
Midnight-6AM daily
Normal headways
<6> Lexington Avenue Local/Pelham Express
Pelham Bay Park to Bowling Green
Peak dir. express in Bronx, weekday rush. Other times all stops
6AM-Midnight daily
Increased service
(7)<7> Flushing Local/Express
Unchanged
(9) Broadway-7 Avenue Local
145th Street to Chambers Street
All stops
6 AM-Midnight daily
Increased service
(8) Nostrand Avenue Local
Grand Army Plaza to Flatbush Avenue
All stops
All times
15 TPH operation
(13) Eastern Parkway Local
Grand Army Plaza to New Lots Avenue
All stops
All times
15 TPH operation
(S) Clark Street Shuttle
Chambers Street to Borough Hall
All stops
All times
One train
(S) Fulton Street Shuttle
Borough Hall to Nevins Street
All stops
All times
One train
I'll get back to you on the B division.
B Division:
B: 205th Street to Prospect Park. Concourse Local, CPW Local, 6 Ave Local to Bergen Street, then nonstop to Church, then nonstop to Kings Highway, then nonstop thru Stillwell to Brighton Beach, then all local stops to Prospect Park.
D: Bedford Park Blvd to West 4th Street. Concourse Local, CPW Express, 6 Ave Express.
G: Court Square to Church Avenue.
M: Metropolitan Avenue to Broad Street
N: 59th Street to 86th Street/Gravesend
Q: 71 Av/Forest Hills to Lawrence Street. via Queens Blvd Local, 60th Street, Broadway Local, Montague tunnel.
R: 36 Street to 95th Street.
S: Broadway-Lafyette to Grand Street
V: Suspended completely
W: Ditmars Boulevard to Whitehall Street. Local.
Z: Jamaica Center to Chambers Street.
Wow that is a serious map. The G would serve a lot of purpose!
1/9: unchanged
2/5: If relays can be done just before 149 Street/GC, then I would do it there. If not, it is busstitution all the way from 180 to 145 St (Manhattan). A second shuttle bus would run from 161 St/YANKEE to 138 Street/Third Avneue (to allow 4 and 5 customers to connect with the 6, with free transfer from the 2 shuttle bus). Eastern Parkway/MUSEUM to Franklin.
3: Service to Wall Street (EXPRESS), Eastern Pkwy/MUSEUM to New Lots. (Customers can change to the R at Times Square and take it to Court Street, where 2/3 busstitution would be available.)
4: SUSPENDED, busstitution between Bedford Pk to Woodlawn, use D as alternative to 161 Street/YANKEE, shuttle bus 161 to 138, and 6 as alternative in Manhattan. Also, run much more frequent Bx32 short runs between Kingsbridge VA to 174/175 Sts.
6: Run down to Borough Hall in Brooklyn (relay switch just before station from Manhattan).
7: unchanged
S: (all) unchanged
A: 207 Street to 34 Street (local, skips 50 Street), Chambers to Queens (with busstitution)
B: Brooklyn Service ONLY: Prospect Park to Brighton Beach.
C: SUSPENDED
D: Bronx to 34 Street/6 Avenue, 36 St/Brooklyn to CI)
E: Queens to 34 St/8 Avenue
F: Queens to 34 St, Delancey Street to Brooklyn (with busstitution)
G: unchanged
J: unchanged
L: unchanged
M: Queens to Chambers Street
N: Queens to Canal, 59th Street to Gravesend (see also R)
Q: SUSPENDED
R: Queens to Court Street (relay at Lawrence), 36 St to Bay Ridge (with busstitution)
V: SUSPENDED
W: SUSPENDED
Z: unchanged
All trains will run local unless otherwise specified.
Switches are throughout the system for a reason, make good use of all that you can!
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
1: Unchanged
2: Unchanged, higher frequency
3: Eliminated, cars given to 2 line
4: Extended beyond Utica to New Lots, still express Borough Hall to Utica, higher frequency
5: Eliminated, cars given to 4 line
6: Unchanged, but all trains local in Bronx to Pelham Bay Park
7: Unchanged, but all trains local to Main St
A: Local Manhattan and Brooklyn, 207 St-Rockaway Pk-Far Rockaway-207 St, higher frequency
B: Eliminated, cars given to D line
C: Eliminated, cars given to A line
D: Unchanged, skipping DeKalb at all times
E: 179 St-Queens Lcl, terminates at Lex/53rd, some cars given to Q line
F: No service north of 57 St, some cars given to E line
G: Court Sq-Hoyt St
J: Unchanged, higher frequency
L: Unchanged
M: Shuttle, Metropolitan to Wyckoff, cars given to J line
N: 59th/4th-CI shuttle, most cars given to R line
Q: Extended north of 57/7 along the 63rd St line, express in Queens to Jamaica Ctr
R: Operates to Astoria instead of Forest Hills, higher frequency
S: All regular, except Rockaway Park shuttle eliminated
V: Eliminated
W: Eliminated
Skip-stop service eliminated.
I think that's pretty good. Only stations left out are 135 St, 148 St, Nostrand Ave and Kingston Ave, all for the 3 line, and the entire Dyre Ave-E 180 segment. Total: 9 stations.
(A) all trains to Rockaway Pk or Broad Channel, local in Brooklyn, single tracking from Broad Channel onwards, skipping Rockaway Blvd and Boyd Av in the Manhattan-bound direction, single-track shuttles Broad Channel - Far Rockaway and Boyd - Lefferts
(B)(C) suspended
(D) local above 59th St
(E) local in Queens to 179th St
(F) express in Queens to Jamaica Center
(G) Hoyt - Court Sq only
(J)(Z) no express running - Myrtle & Lorimer (Z), Flushing & Hewes (J)
(L) unchanged
(M) shuttles Central - Wyckoff and Metro - Wyckoff
(N) shuttle 59 - 86
(Q) unchanged
(R) to Astoria
(S) (Franklin) unchanged
(V) suspended
(W) suspended
There: I've only killed 2 stations - 145th and 148th on the 3!
1/9: three less trainsets operate
2/3: additional trainsets from 1/9 split among both
4: Woodlawn to GCT
5: (Wherever it normally starts in the Bronx) to Nostrand-Flatbush via 7th avenue line
6: From Pelham Bay to GCT
7: 1/4 of trainsets run from TSQ to Astoria Ditmars Blvd using diamond crossover @ QBP
A: unchanged
B: Two trainsets to J and M each
C: unchanged
D: unchanged
E: unchanged
F: express from Ditmas to Smith 9th
G: Extended to from Church Av to 71 Av/COntinental with full length trains
J: Additional Trainset
L: From Rockaway to Bedford, from there, buses over Williamsburg to 14 st to 8th Av
M: Same as before, but goes on Sea Beach. Express on 4 av via montague nassau st
N: 34st-Astoria
Q: brighton local, then in montague rathole till whitehall, then single track to City hall (2 trains can single track simultaneously see here http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/track/smdowntn.gif
R: 71 Av Continental to 8th ave line to WTC
S Rockaway: unchanged
S TSQ: unchanged
S Prospect: unchanged
V: eliminated
Z: ?
One reason is may be, that there's only for one direction a cross-over.
That is for the Bredas. As you may have guessed:
1000-1299 1000 series (Rohr)
5000-5191 5000 series (CAF)
6000-6061 6000 series (Alstom, being built)
7000-7??? 7000 series (Talked about, no contract yet)
wayne
Ben F. Schumin :-)
First part of the production run had DC cam control propulsion system, second part had DC chopper propulsion system.
John
Oren, I think your series number are incorrect as the Alstom upgrade contract calls for upgrading 364 of the 2000 and 3000 Breda’s to AC traction.
2000-2099=1003000-3239=240Total=340Contract=364
4000-4099 4000 series Delivered from manufacture with DC chopper controls
That is for the Bredas. As you may have guessed:
1000-1299 1000 series (Rohr) Delivered from manufacture with DC cam controls. Upgraded to AC traction with (GE) General Electric hardware by I believe Alstom
5000-5191 5000 series (CAF) Delivered from manufacture with to AC traction.
6000-6061 6000 series (Alstom, being built) 180 cars in contract.
7000-7??? 7000 series (Talked about, no contract yet) 130 cars planed for this contract.
John
--- The 10 - 11 - 12 hundred's weight 75,000 lbs. per car. When I broke in on the Breda's brand new there weight 85,000 lbs. per car. They were the Caddy's of the fleet.
John
The city will be on higher alert most likely, then it will fizzle out. These things have a duration of a week or so.
Personally, I give it a week tops. I'm going to go easy on the photos in the meantime. I don't need/want the hassle.
I tend to doubt there'll be any significant change.
At the least, I believe tomorrow's morning rush will be under high alert alert. Anything after that is anyone's guess.
And thats how it is, and will be everywhere. there isnt any way to stop these things.
""We bring the good news to Muslims of the world that the expected 'Winds of Black Death' strike against America is now in its final stage... 90percent (ready) and God willing near," the letter said.
90% means its ready, and God welling it is soon, and then we will see who will take victory into his hands."
I'm all into collecting intelligence on the internet, so I thought I might let you know.
Very true. In fact it could be more than one terrorist group, we just don't know right now.
http://www.ehj-navarre.org/navarre/na_history_navarre.html
This is no time for us to get spun based on our lack of awareness of events outside the borders of the palace ... The SPANISH government still believes firmly that it was ETA that did this and NOT "Al Qaeda," a construct of the Reagan administration. :(
Many people in the United States, both government officials and ordinary folks, HOPE that ad-Qaeda was behind the Madrid attack, and not this ETA bunch. It's all psychological. You see, we as Americans aren't used to defeat on the battlefield. We get in wars, we win. Vietnam's sort of a special case; while the overall outcome wasn't good, we can take solace in the fact that we inflicted far heavier casualties on the bad guys than they did on us, moreover we were let down by our worthless "allies" in Saigon. My point is that Americans are used to winning, and expect to win, unlike the Europeans with their ability to accept defeat from time to time.
Shift ahead to 9/11. It's a new war, the war on terror, except this time we suffer a defeat that makes Custer's Last Stand look like a triumph. The bad guys massacre 3,000 of us, while suffering no losses themselves except for 19 hijackers who wanted to die. How do we deal with this crushing defeat given our winning tradition? Why, we play up the bad guys, al-Qaeda, as the toughest foe possible, thereby making our defeat less painful. Think back to when you were in grade school. If you got a black eye in a playground tussle, you'd rather have it been inflicted by the biggest kid in the class rather than by some skinny twerp. Defeat isn't so bad in the first situation. So it's important to the American psyche that we play up al-Qaeda as something special, as a band of killers far more dangerous than your run-of-the-mill terrorists.
Now comes the Madrid train bombing. It's a huge attack, one on that scale in the United States given relative populations would've caused about 1,400 dead. Yet it looks like it was caused by one of your typical run-of-the-mill terrorist groups, a group that nonetheless could pull off an al-Qaeda-scale attack. To Americans, that means that the crushing defeat on 9/11 was caused by a terrorist group that wasn't anything special. We weren't as tough as we seemed. And that's a hard nut to swallow.
I disagree; do as you normally would and don't give the creeps yet another victory.
Your pal,
Fred
A whole bunch of pics went up on my website this evening from today's crop.
'Spanish bombs in Andelucia...Oh my darling, my baby is gone.'
History repeats itself for those who don't remember or forgot. You get a lot more for two bucks a ride. CI peter
Can anyone explain the controls (I found out that ENTER blows the horn, but that's about it!)
On other trains the punctuation keys previously described go from B8 to BRAKE RELEASE. The "?" key doesn't work with the new tech trains, meaning no emergency braking.
I hope this answers your question, and isn't too complicated.
Q: one-handle emergency brake
/: two-handle emergency brake
HOWEVER ... lookee lookee at what I kept!
Driving a BVE Train
Two handle
Power + Z
Power - A
Brakes + /
Brakes - >
Emergency brake _
One Handle
Power + Z OR _
Power - A OR ]
Emergency brake Q OR [
Reverser + Up Arrow
Reverser - Down Arrow
Switches
ATS verification Space
Warning continuance Insert
EB reset Delete
Speed limit Back Space
Whistle 1 Enter
Whistle 2 Shift + Enter
Whistle 3 Ctrl + Enter
Change to ATS PageUp
Change to ATC PageDown
Return Home
Release Brakes End
Activate protection system Shift + F2
Deactivate protection system Ctrl + F2
Activation/deactivation of unpleasantness gauge F3
Indication of time * news light * frame rate Shift + F3
Schedule F4
Schedule Scroll Up Shift + F4
Schedule Scroll Down Ctrl + F4
http://www.utu.org/worksite/detail_news.cfm?ArticleID=12527
Just wait until the Medicare Perscription Plan hits in 2006, Medicare forbiden to negotiate lower prices from corporate giants. Those seniors now getting Medicaid perscrition will be forbidden from using it, they MUST use the Medicare...............................
I think we will be hoping to rise up to third world status.........
There are so many employees with messed up financial situations, or just want the money to buy luxury items, that they're willing to forego the regulations. I was at Corona where a T/O was willing to work a double 2 nights in a row, and then complained when CAS told him he couldn't. An hour later he was calling them to work on his RDO.
How can Transit not take advantage of this situation? You have people lining up for overtime, why bother with extra personnel?
As a result those who are like myself and on the extra list who refuse to work any overtime get penalized when it comes to getting an assignment. They have a working system by having so many people work overtime, that you screw it up by not doing so. And so they try bullying you into doing overtime:
I was once called (when in the A div) to work Westchester Ave Master on the midnight tour, 2 hours each way for me barring any GOs. So for a day off I'd be making 8 hours pay, out of the house for 12 at least. Thought about it, said no. For the rest of the pick, the last Road Extra ("Extra Extra") person was getting better assignments than I was every day. In effect, they were tyring to bully me into working overtime by showing me how they could make things hard. Knowing I'd be able to get into the B next pick though, I returned the favor. :)
I hear it was like that as far back as many people can remember; which is why you may have so many people willing to do the overtime, for fear of the negative effects. At the least, if one refused overtime, they could not get any when they actually wanted it. Or the worst, like I experienced, they could make your day to day life a living hell.
So the TA has learned in a sense: the method of using the employees as they always have will probably always work.
Why bother? Go to work, do your job, and don't worry about the little sh!t. When you get a picked job, there's really not much they can do to you as far as sending you out of your way.
Agreed that this particular book has little in the way of "scientific method" but the emotional values and observations of the author still have merit - just needs some BS filtering. :)
But look at where work shifts are going in railroading, how long it takes from the time you go dead on hours and actually tie up at home. 8 hour clock is ticking all the way. On the trucking side of the realm, logbooks have been called "comic books" for decades ... we ARE becoming a third world nation right before our very eyes. :(
Possible Scenario: "Joe Blow" works NJ Transit's New York Extra List. He went off duty at midnight (after working 10 hours) at New York Penn station. The "rest" period starts exactly at midnight. "Mr. Blow" deadheads home to Freehold (he takes the 12:37 train to Matawan, then drives home from there), and he arrives home approx. 2 am. "Joe" makes a sandwich, watches a little t.v. to relax, then heads to bed around 3:15 am. The phone rings at 4 am. It's the crew dispatcher giving "Joe" an 8 am sign-up in New York, since he's legally "rested" at 8 am. And all extra list calls are made 4 hours before sign up.
Obviously, "legally" rested and "truthfully" rested are two different things.
@German railways it's minimum 10 hours, if neccessary it can go down to
9 (but very rarely - the work council controls it). An other rule says
a second minmum time (only if greater 9 hours) is 50 % of the last tour
added to 50 % time of the next tour.
Normally the next tour starts 24 hours after the last has started +/-2
hours.
The max lenght of the tours are 14 hours, but they must have an 2 hour
rest (one block!), so the max effective working time is 12 hours.
Presently, under the hours of service act, being on
duty 12 hours requires the company to give us 10 hours off, of which 8 of them are undisturbed and a 2 hour call for the total of 10 hours.
Moreover, either under the law or under collective bargianing crews on his road working a straight 12 can request a 10-hour undisturbed off-duty time with a 2 hour call for a total of 12 hours off duty.
Click onto the video when you get to the site.
On the other hand, I like the idea.
http://www.council.nyc.ny.us/textfiles/Int%200281-2004.htm
Sunday is supposed to be regular scheduled service.
See message on railroad.net.
Robert
Robert, there is nothing new about NYCT they screw up every weekend.
Robert
If the N and 7 line G.O.'s takes effect, then the G will be cut back to Court Square (as it should be cut back every weekend anyway.). I don't know about the status of the F line G.O.. Most likely, as Broadway Dave said, it's postponed (sighs at the prospect of R32's on the F running express in Brooklyn, lost this weekend.)
Robert
With ongoing station renovations at Queens Plaza, and Roosevelt, PLUS upcoming renovations at Forest Hills station, there is no sense to extend the G to Forest Hills on weekends.
Try emailing them about the problem rather than griping about it on Subtalk.
When I go into work on Thursdays witch is my first day back from my RDO's i go right to the Crew Reporting Center at Forest Hill and look to see if they have a copy of the Supplment for the G on Saturday and the R on Sundays and see what I am doing for that weekend. The first full weekend of this pick my G jobs was cut becouse they were running 20min headway all day becouse there was singal tracking between Brooklyn and Queen. They cut most of our jobs out. When I call the Crew Office to see what I got instead, they told me that they can't untill I get to work in Saturday. Then I will get me new Job. I call the union and they told me that this is how they work and they can't do nothing about it. So the union was no big help in this ether.
Robert
Robert
...as observed earlier this week at Union Square.
What is your opinion on this?
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol,com)
Mark
So you have about 5 seconds from the time the terrorists enters the bus to throw him/her outside in order to rescue the passengers except yourself.
Mark
Same with a train. Let's say an alarm went off in Times Square as someone passed through the turnstile with a backpack. Then what? It only helps against those who will try to get away.
(It might not stop all terrosism, but it could help prevent larger bombs that require remote detonation, like the kind that were used in Madrid.)
They were described as backpack bombs.
No use worrying about what Al-Qaida is going to try on a commuter rail system. If you're an alert person, you may be able to spot non-normal things or packages on your train. Then again, you may not. I don't think they realize that another large scale attack on the US will probably result in a new Middle Eastern US base from which unmanned aircraft would fly daily with rockets.
Meanwhile, we've got enough rail lines that if they try to blow one up, I'll use another one. The reason why terrorists are called that is because they gain attention by scaring populations. I'm not afraid of them and people who are just fuel their resolve.
Maybe, maybe not.
If a "sensitive" area were compromised, say one of the heavier-used river tunnels, or a major switching point, multiple lines could be shut down, particularly on interboro connections. Now imagine all the people crammed on the Lex at rush hours trying to pack into other already packed trains... And if a coordinated, multiple, attack took place half the system could be shut down. One crazy homeless guy throwing metal on the tracks shut down most of the IND in Manhattan for an entire day; imagine what a bunch of people sitting around thinking about this for months, with technical info and track maps and the like.
I think the bottom line that nobody in public office can say is, We *can't* stop these people. We can try, and maybe sometimes we'll catch them, but that's usually their own fault for doing stupid things (asking the flight instructor how to fly in a straight line, being too inept to get your shoe bomb to go off in the first try, etc, going to the rental agency and trying to get a refund for the van you used to deliver the bomb, neglecting daylight savings time so the bomb goes off an hour early while you're en route with the thing in your car, etc.). We can't stop these people, and all these "security" measures are little more than the government trying to make us feel better (like taking away grandma's knitting needles and frisking pregnant women will do anything to reduce the risk of terrorism).
That's the bottom line, IMHO. You just go about your life, and the hell with the lot of them. If they give us problems, trust me we can give them much bigger problems :)
Chuck
What is your opinion on this?
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
I am haunted, however, by Oliver Stone's post-9/11 statement that Bin Laden will never be brought to international justice, because he has too much protection from American oil companies. Also by memories of Contra Gate during the Reagan Administration, in which increased drug dealing in inner city USA was promoted, and, I think, excused as a means to an end. Lastly, by the notion that President Bush knew about 9/11 but did nothing, all of which adds up to a concern on my part that the current administration considers the lives of American citizens expendable, especially if it's a means towards protecting and increasing the profits of American oil companies. This motive has also been widely cited as the real reason for the war in Iraq, and for the American military presence in Afghanistan.
So I am concerned that exactly this profiteering mentality will slow and even stop the development and implementation of this new bomb detection technology now being developed in Israel for its buses.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/local/story/172788p-150634c.html
C to grimy C in subway
By CARRIE MELAGO
and PETE DONOHUE
DAILY NEWS WRITERS
Debris on the C train.
In the subway system, C does not stand for clean.
While subway cars systemwide are getting cleaner, C train cars are the dirtiest in town, according to a Straphangers Campaign report released yesterday.
Just 48% of the route's bare-bones coaches passed the white-glove test of being basically dirt-free or having just light dirt, according to the group's survey, conducted between October and early January.
"It's great that the system is getting cleaner, but it's not fair that C train riders are getting the short end of the broom," Straphangers staff attorney Gene Russianoff said.
C train passengers agreed that the line is downright dirty.
"It's filthy. Out of all the trains, I'd agree it's the worst," said Terrence Meehan, 29, of Riverhead, L.I. "There's just some sort of dirt, a film, that's just everywhere. I usually prefer to stand."
"It seems like it's never cleaned at all," said Dimitrius Richardson, 25, of Harlem. "People leave cups and newspapers all over the place."
On the brighter side, more subway cars overall were found to be unsullied by dirt and grime compared with prior surveys.
In a statement, transit officials said the Straphangers' scores are generally lower than their own internal reviews, adding that the Transit Authority will invest more than $64 million keeping its 6,200 cars clean this year.
The Straphangers review rated 66% of cars clean compared with 59% in the last rating - and compared with 47% and 32% in the two prior Straphangers Campaign "Schmutz" reports.
The latest improvement came despite a cost-cutting program adopted in 2003 in which the TA reduced cleaner spending by nearly $9 million, a move officials previously said would be achieved through better scheduling - not staff reductions.
"Transit officials deserve credit for making subway cars cleaner and doing it with less resources," said Neysa Pranger, a Straphangers coordinator who directed the survey.
Other findings of the report include:
The most improved line was the R, going from having 37% of its cars clean in the 2002-2003 survey to 69% in the current survey.
The line with the most deterioration was the No. 7. Its clean rating dropped to 54% from 78%.
Originally published on March 12, 2004
The drop in the cleanliness rating on the 7 isn't surprising, either. Corona always did a pretty good job keeping the redbirds clean, but during the survey period (October through January) the surveyors were riding the newly arrived R-62A cars, which apparently hadn't been kept as clean in their former home.
That improvement on the R is rather eye-opening. Anyone got any idea why that line got so much better?
As for Livonia, their cars were the cleanest of the A Division.
And when you think of this, car classes like the R32, R38, R40, and the Redbirds are easy to clean. Seats against the windows, no real underseat areas to toss trash. A quick run with a dust mop should keep those things tidy. Now I'd hate to be the made on some of the newer classes with all sorts of underseat spaces to hide trash.
Why is it that whenever the TA walls off a portion of a platform, they put up two signs (in English only) that take a multi-part process for passengers to understand?
1. Sign: This is a "restricted clearance area"
2. Brain: "Oh, that means 'tight squeeze'"
3. Sign: "RCA"
4. Brain: "memorize an abbreviation"
5. Sign: "Do not stand in RCA"
6. Brain: "What did RCA mean again? Is this an RCA? Am I not supposed to stand here? Come on, this is New York, it's none of your business telling me where to stand. Besides, I don't understand your (*^^% signs!"
PS. I've changed my handle to reflect the Guastavino tiles that line (or used to line, haven't checked) the underside of the West End el platforms at Ft Hamilton Parkway. (For the uninitiated, Guastavino tiles line the ceilings at the original City Hall station, GCT and under the Queensborough Bridge.)
Go ahead. Just don't come crying to us or to the MTA that you got hurt.
I would say your brain needs a swift kick in the synaps.
he agrees you shouldn't stand there.
but i agree with him. the signs are very unclear and make a very simple concept much more complicated than it has to be.
i have looked at the signs before and wondered what RCA stands for, even though it states it above. Is there really a good reason why both the written out version and unneeded abreviation have to be together like that?
I've seen many instances where people just ignore the signs. They're IGNORANT, I tell you!
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
--Mark
You got me curious and I went over to Fort Hamilton Parkway on the West End. I couldn't imagine what you were talking about. Looking up from the street, I could see the tilework that is below the station platforms.
Tiles underneath Fort Hamilton Parkway Station
Do you know how they came to put tiles underneath the platform?
By the way, Guastavino tiles are also used in the southern arcade under the Municipal building (over the BMT entrance). Neat handle!
Great job.
Other than that, I say go for it.
:-)
Koi
The News-Times/Norm Cummings
Major changes to the New Milford railroad station are among the
proposals in a $1.9 billion plan to upgrade Metro-North service
between Norwalk and New Milford.
It doesn't seem likely that Metro-North passenger rail service will
extend from Danbury to points north anytime soon.
Not with a projected cost of $1.9 billion.
The first phase of a study that looks at upgrading the South Norwalk-
Danbury rail line and extending passenger service to New Milford is
nearly complete. On Wednesday, local officials learned the cold,
hard facts about its cost.
The study was funded by a grant procured by former 5th District
Congressman James Maloney in 2001. The state Department of
Transportation is overseeing it.
"Any passenger service to New Milford is well in the future," said
Leonard Lapsis, DOT supervising planner for the line improvement
project. "But it is being studied at this time."
None of the scenarios discussed Wednesday included electrification
of the tracks. The $1.9 billion figure is an estimate of laying a
double track and improving the line for the diesel engines now in
use. Phase two of the study will explore the cost and feasibility of
an electric rail line.
Improving the present track and laying a second track would allow
northbound and southbound passenger trains to run at the same time.
They would go 70 mph from South Norwalk to Danbury and 60 mph from
Danbury to New Milford.
If towns want to stick with a single track, the cost would go down,
but not much. Improvements to the single-track line could be done
for $1.04 billion, according to the study. This scenario would
require short stretches of double tracks where one train could pull
off the main line while another passed. Those sidings would be
installed just south of Danbury, in Brookfield and south of New
Milford.
"These figures do not include the cost of realignment of Route 7,
which would be required in places, or property acquisition, which
would be required," said Bruce Smith of Gonnett Fleming Transit &
Rail Systems, who is heading the physical engineering part of the
study.
Overhead bridges would have to be replaced along the line, a new
station would have to be built in Wilton, curves would have to be
eliminated with straight track laid in over 20 areas, and signal
systems along the line would have to be radically changed, Smith
said. New, higher platforms would also have to be built at the
Brookfield and New Milford train stations and portions of the tracks
to New Milford would have to be torn up and replaced.
The study was launched after the public asked for a way to reach
southern Connecticut and points in southwestern New York without
having to drive the often gridlocked Route 7.
Commuters who now ride the train from Danbury to Norwalk wanted
faster, more frequent service. The improvements outlined at
Wednesday's presentation would reduce travel time from South Norwalk
to Danbury to 30 minutes. It would take 42 minutes to go from South
Norwalk to New Milford.
But beyond the staggering costs, the proposal is fraught with
problems, as Housatonic Valley Council of Elected Officials director
Jonathan Chew pointed out.
"He talked about putting in two potential new stations, one in
Wilton and one south of Danbury, and of radically changing the
station in Brookfield," Chew said. "I think we need to take a hard
look at that. The Brookfield train station is now in private use and
houses a business. Would they build a platform that led to parking
to the east of it? A parking lot that would provide spaces for
several hundred cars? We have to ask, `Do we have a viable stop
there?'Ÿ"
Contact Susan Tuz
at stuz@n...
or at (203) 731-3352.
The current time from Danbury to GCT is close to 2:00.
I agree. Let's bring back the Forneys on all the els!!!
High level platforms would be needed for the sake of ADA requirements - they wouldn't have to be the whole train, just a car or two.
The big cost is upgrading the tracks & signals to make the train speed enough to lure folks to ride it. It's a tough sell.
Forneys would be cute however and might draw riders by themselves. Suggest they elevate the line at the next public meeting!!
As for the platforms, odds are they're going to raise the entire thing just b/c that's how one track minded people are. Yeah, I'd settle for having one car have level boarding. I just wish that they'd still have all lows and use lower level boarding cars like Bombardier's double deckers, or Kawasaki's new design.
Grade elmination is another waste.
Especially in Maspeth.
There you *are* correct. This is a freight/industrial switching branch.
All trains are protected by flagmen. This weeks incident was a runaway, and the preventions for this lie elsewhere on the line.
Elias
Grade crossing elimination, on a line that really isn't built yet is no big deal either.
Both of thes would be included in a responsibly designed rail line.
Elias
1) that is simply not so. The contractor doesnt give a hoot how high the platform is, and the day of building it on cinders is long gone. It will be a properly constructed, reniforced platform, with footings below the frost line regardless of how tall it is. I simply cannot se any substantial savings from not elevating them.
2) given the cost of building the line, the cost of platforms, low or high is rather irrelevent.
Elias
I guess my problem isn't exactly with high platform equipment, it's with the idea that there are two largely incompatible platform standards being created. With the advent of low floor near-level-boarding equipment, like the Bombardier/UDTC Bilevel, the Sprinter, and the Talgo, the need to high platform a line 100% where the whole system was once all low platform is gone. In this respect I am thinking of operations like Metrolink, Metra and VRE. All of them, if given the same sized fleet and infrastructure (minus the high plats) as LIRR, NJT or MN would haul as many, if not more people than either of those 3 systems.
I realize that MN has GCT and the insane High Platforming craze that surrounded the arrival of the M1s, and as such low level level boarding equipment is largely wasted there. However there is no longer a need for systems like Metrolink, VRE, Metra, or any other all-low platform operators to transition to high platform boarding equipment just to gain accessibility.
Indeed, high platforms could hurt accesiblity of ambulatory aged people since they generally feature stairs which take the direct way to the platform or a ramp which switchbacks several times to reach the platform height. If an older person who is still ambulatory, but is just barely keeping themselves out of the wheelchair, is running for a train at a high level station, they'll quite obviously go for the stairs, and risk possible injury while trying to climb up to the train. With a low platform station there usually isn't anything between the parking lot, and the station, other than the sidewalk, and a curb with the appropriate number of cutouts where neccesary, the old person could just keep hobbling along and make the train, rather than risk another broken hip trying to do the stairs. Why should the passengers have to climb up into the train, when the train can come down to them just as easily?
I also have a hard time understanding how a high platform is not going to cost more than a low platform. A low platform is some Asphaltic Concrete poured in a roughly rectangular shape, with maybe a step-up box on the rail side, or if not then the universal orange stripe of plastic to keep people back incase the train lunges for them. A high platform is probably a minimum of 20 reinforced concrete supports placed vertically, with Portland Concrete slabs placed or poured over them. I think there's also a steel or reinforced concrete beam which holds the whole thing up. The high platform built like that is much more work to build than a low platform station, and thus by logic is more expensive to build than a low platform station. Admittedly the low-platform station's price would rise a bit if you took a Portland Concrete slab, rather than some Asphaltic Concrete, and a High Platform station cost would drop if you just used piled-dirt instead of reinforced concrete supports, but when's the last time that was done?
However, I take issue with the electrification. Electric traction remains unchallenged as the best way to move people efficiently over rail. Diesels can try, but nothing can match an electric MU or even locomotive pulled set for acceleration, comfort, or even top speed. Even the argument that the ridership on the line does not currently warrent electrification holds little water, the US is getting larger, and as the cities grow they push the suburbs further out. Eventually the people WILL be there for electrification, and by then they'll all be NIMBYs who will decry the "Ugly Catenary", it'll be too late and they'll be stuck with an inferior diesel hauled shittles which provide too little service at too slow a speed. Of course those people will then either head for the NH line directly, the Hudson line, or, far worse, decide to drive into NYC or the vicinity to catch a local NH train, or a subway. This situation is clearly undesirable, since it would leave the Danbury branch overburdened, underutilized, and largely scorned by the people living off it.
Now I can understand a new branch being diesel, with the option of being electrified later, especially since that's exactly what we need here in Philadelphia. Schuykill Valley Metro is being pursued by SEPTA as an all electrified, new-build, gold plated route parallel to existing NS route, some 50 miles to Reading. It will never get built in this version, since it came in at 2 billion dollars minimum, where a diesel system could be operational within 4 years for a quarter that cost. Thus I would sympathize if you were against a 100% electrified system running up to New Milford, however I have a hard time understanding your irrational dislike of improvements to existing lines. The important thing is to get the people moving on the train, of course later you have to keep them there, electrification is one way to do that.
And if MN and ConnDot never study electrification of the Danbury branch, how will they ever know how their service is doing? P32DM-ACs cannot keep it up forever, their acceleration sucks for one, eventually it will likely have to be electrified. Spending a million or two dollars to determine whether or not electrification should be undertaken seems like a small price to pay, especially if the report turns up that it'd be advantageous to the railroad to electrify at this time. Capital improvement projects undertaken today are likely to be cheaper than the same project done 10-20 years down the line.
This was in reference to Mr NIMBYKILLER's post here: http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=673789
There *is* an issue there. It is ok for a handicapped person to board at a low level platform, but when they get off at GCT... What then? How do they get from the lower level to the upper (mid level) of the car? Do these cars have elevators in them? Are there to be ramps? What is the permitted pitch of a handicapped accessible ramp? IIRC it is 1":1'. Your ramp would be longer than the space available in the railcar!
There are two different ramp pitches cited in the building codes, and of course, they do not agree. The NFPA standard (What may be called an "exit") is different (and earlier) than the ADA standard. In other words, what the fire code will accept for an exit is far steeper than what ADA will allow for accessibility.
Elias
And *THAT* will be more expensive than building the whole damn Millford Line!
Sheesh, what you be thinking of!
CHEAPEST is building High Level Platforms on the New Millford!
BTW: New Millford is where I had my appendix out, back when I was about 12 years old. There was a NH switch engine in the station that facinated me, and the crew offered to give me a ride, but my mom declined the offer as we were due for a follow up doctor's appointment.
Elias
Then again, Metro-North could spend the money and then be fired by Connecticut DOT in favor of a new operating contractor. That's not likely, but the risk still isn't worth taking. (Compare with Shore Line East; MN wanted that contract, but CDOT hired Amtrak instead.)
There's something wrong with these figures, there has to be. Are they tagging on a virtual rebuild of Route 7 and charging the whole thing off to Metro-North?
A bit of financial chicanery well within the capabilities of Connecticut DOT.
1.x$Billion dollars *is* after all a trivial sum.
(amortized over the 50year depreciation life of the upgrade)
What planet have you been on all of your life?
Nah... That is dirt cheap for what it is.
Yes, I do suspect that new HSR would in fact be less costly.
The Milford lion is an already existing "on the ground" line that would require realighnments (property aqusitions) highway realignments (more property aqusitions) and more, inculding all new stations, parking lots and related infrastructure.
Builsing a new HSR along the existing Interstate System ROW at a constant grade separation would cost a whole heck of alot less, because the ROW already exists in a high-speed compatible configuration. Stations would be every 50 to 100 miles, not every 2 to 5 miles.
Elias
At 6% interest, that is maybe $75 million per year. Still a lot of money for a small market.
Project Scope
This project is divided into several concurrent in-house and consultant design projects. The first is construction of a second track along the Main Line between Paterson Junction and the "XW" Interlockings [about six miles]. The second is the design and installation of six passing sidings on the PVL (three primary, two secondary and modification to one freight siding). The third consists of reconfiguration of three interlockings on the Main Line at locations east of Ridgewood Station, west of Waldwick Station, and at the Hackensack River crossing in West Secaucus.
Project Cost
$63.3 million
Note that this project is remarkably similiar to Connecticut's "scaled down" option, the one that "only" costs $1.09 billion.
"But not much"??? A reduction from $1.9 B to $1.04 B saves almost one-half!
Ah, innumeracy.
The bulb is marked as follows:
N.Y.C. TRANSIT AUTH.
G.S. EL SPEC.
RCA PR 1130
120V. 0.3W. NOM.
60 CYCLES
I would like to know the details of this lamp and whether or not I can attempt to light it up. It is not at all clear how it works or what it might look like if illuminated.
Thanks for any and all information
Jim McConville
ojim@cdsnet.net
Jackson County, OR
You're going to have a tough time. Some time ago, you could buy and outdoor wall mounted fixture that was 15 watt LPS. I haven't seen them on the market in a long time. That's because they manufacture 35 and 50 watt HPS fixtures to replace those. And now, they have similar type fixtures in Home Depot that are compact fluorescent.
Bill "Newkirk"
This PDF from the American Dream Coalition published this February is interesting but it's full of so many lies and distortions, the article loses credibility. I can't understand why this organization is so anti-rail? It's mind boggling.
It's obvious the person(s) who wrote this did some homework in accumulating many facts and statistics. But, there are too many statements that are over the top assumptions based on these facts. It's a good read folks and if you keep an open mind, you'll probably agree with 30 - 40 percent of the facts but not the conclusions.
An excerpt from the Article:
New York is the nation's transit Mecca; with more than 1,100 miles of commuter rail and nearly 300 miles of heavy rail. New York also has 2.5 million jobs concentrated in Manhattan, which is also by far the densest county in the United States.
Why is it a disaster: New york's saftey record is abysmal, killing an average of 80 people a year. Slightly more than half are killed by commuter rail, the rest by subways. By comparison, Washinton's rail system which carries a tenth as many passenger miles, kills only 1.4 percent as many people.
While New York Transit gained riders during the 1990s, much of that gain was a result of fare reductions. For example, in 1997 transit riders were allowed free transfer between buses and subways for the first time. This led to a huge increase in ridership but a modest drop in reveneus as people who previously paid to transer now transfer for free! Even with the fare reductions, transit lost market share of commuter travel.
New York is no stranger to cost overruns. The IND subway line, which was built by the city in the 1920's and 1930s, cost twice its original projections. As one history notes, the privately built IRT and BRT lines were constrained by the need to earn a profit, but hte city "spent freely on its own system with taxpayers money." The MTA is currently spending more than three times the original projection to construct a headquarters bulding.
New York City wants to build a new subway line along Second Avenue. This eight-mile line is expected to cost a phenomenal $16.8 billion , or $2.1 billion per mile. While it would carry a predicted 1 million riders a day, all but 25,000 of them would otherwise ride another subway route or the bus. The FTA recommends funding this line because of the 18 millin hours of time it would save existing subway riders -- an average of about 4 minutes per ride. When campaiging for office, Mayor Bloomburg said the subway was too expensive and he proposed bus-rapid transit instead.
Opinions??
Virtually all suicides.
In other jurisdictions it's easier to get yourself a gun.
Anyway, I can show you single highways or roads, or even single counties that claim a lot more than 80 people a year.
I also like the cost overruns line that's standard. Don't know where to start there. I guess no other projects ever have costs overruns. Like the bridge here that might need to be torn down and started over a 2nd time. I don't see them protesting that new monument or musuem or whatever they're building in DC too, that's full of overruns.
"time it would save existing subway riders -- an average of about 4 minutes per ride."
They sure ain't protesting all the billions in highway construction that does the exact same thing.
Do what I do and just call them anarchists, because that's what they are deep down. I'm sure they're anti-speeding tickets and public schools too.
The total number of deaths by rail is so miniscule compared to highway fatalities. I'm sure New York city alreardy had 80 deaths so far this year and it's only March!
The total number of deaths by rail is so miniscule compared to highway fatalities. I'm sure New York city alreardy had 80 road deaths so far this year and it's only March!
*Amazed at the traffic report as I type this*
Everyone with an agenda does this, including those who support rail.
But I don't see many other groups twisting numbers and words around on things that don't even remotely effect them. Why does a group from Illinois care that much to protest and spend millions trying to stop a rail line from going into houston or phoenix?
They should be given the nobel prize for being so self-less as to fight battles in any random city to save it's residents.
I like the slam they did on the Hudson Bergen Light rail.
"Construction costs on the HBLR went three times over budget and the line only carries about half the riders proejcted for it. It's basic flaw is that, althought it travels througth some of the densest residential areas in America, it doesn go to any particular job centers."
While it "MAY BE" true on the subject of the HBLR being overbudget, the line has already exceeded projected ridership. Furthermore, it travels through the the heart of Jersey City's job center: Pavonia Newport and Exchange Place. The majority of HBLR riders use commuter subways into Manhattan so there is no basic flaw in it's construction.
John I. Blair is spinning in his grave.
Rail Forever.
How about that for fact distortion.
Road advocates (and their paymasters) have always pushed the concept that just one more road is needed and then congestion will be relieved (e.g. Tribourough begat Whitstone which begat Throgs Neck) while additonal train lines will not relieve congestion by attracting new riders. They are wrong on both accounts because increased capacity creates increased usuage (If you build it they will come !) South Brooklyn, the Bronx, Queens where all developed by mass transit. Does this mean that the lines that were built during the first 30 years of the 20th century were not croweded ? Of course not, the crowding is to be welcomed as a sign of the health of the city. If my grandchildren ever see a 2cd Ave subway I'm sure the Lexington Ave will not be less crowded but rather the increased capacity will be a sign of and a cause for increased activity in the city -this as someone famous used to say is a good thing.
The same can never be said of the increased usage caused by additional roadways. Mass transit should be advocated by every public minded person because 1) It is cleaner (from a pollution point of view), 2) It is safer, 3) It reduced dependencies on foreign oil 4) It promotes civic mindeness (millions moved everyday none in first class).
Nothing happens without causes. If cheap mortgage money was not available to veterans but the city encouraged homeownership the city might not sank so low before beginning its renewal. If the government supported mass transit instead of highways who knows what course the city might have taken ? We as fans of rail and as citizens should serve as a counterforce to the relentless advocacy of highways against or system.
Vince
You missed one more.
5. It frees the poor and the elderly from having to spend 30 to 40 percent of their income on automobile ownership.
Mark
What do I mean?
Check out this simple list [Monthly payments]:
1]Monthly payment [new or recently used car regular sedan] - $250 to 350 dollars
2]Insurance payment [depending on state, city, etc.] - $100 to 200 dollars
3]Gas [current price] - $ 60 to 75 dollars
4]Parking [downtown] - $50 to 75 dollars with parking permit [estimated]
5] Tolls [NJ to PA] - $30-45 dollars with EZ pass
Now add that to my basic living costs
6] Rent - $750 dollars [high rise luxury apt building in suburbs]
7] Bills [cable, phone] - $140
8] Food [home cooked and restaurant] $240
9] Medicines [co-pay] - $60
Using the lower figures concerning the car, I would spenf $1580 a month. My take-home pay is around $1500 a month. I would be in the hole $80 [or a hell of a lot more if you use the higher figures]every month. Since I do not have a car, subtract around $490 dollars a month, and that money could be applied to my living expenses, and have something left over for ME.
And these idiots [ADC] think that autos are much cheaper than Mass Transit? I guess NOT! My transit costs are FIXED at $81 dollars a month. Owning a car would cost a minimum of $490 a month. Do the friggin math here ADC! But then you are probably a bunch or rich libertarians or Republicans, not a working-class wage slave like me.
All in all, transit needs to be improved, everywhere. That's why so many people don't take it. People tell me I have an infinate amount of patients to deal with the bus schedules, and I'm starting to think they're right.
I'll leave off oil as I enjoy changing that. Especially since the last three times I let someone touch that, it ended up costing me hundreds in repairs. Must be complicated to screw a drain plug in?
And that's my to do list! :)
Does that work with negative numbers (if you demolish it, they will sod off!)? If so, the quick fix would be to close, demolish or pedestrianise whole roads.
They open a new highway, there's no one on it, no houses on it, you take it. Wow 40min at 65mph the whole way. Not bad(not including gas, oil, 200 in tolls). Course everyone else sees this, houses and plywood apartments pop up. That's all over, it's packed now.
Flipside, too crowded, take the bus, train, other route. Wanna go to the mall or beach. Nowhere to park, too crowded. I personally don't like circling parking lots more than 10 minutes or 50 minutes, which everyone who's gone to college as done at some point(in the south anyway). Too much traffic from the football game? The ones at my horrible team, the stadium leaves 10 minutes before the games done for that reason. Makes it more tempting to stay or eat somewhere and wait for traffic to die down.
It's bascially, what would you do in the situation. I'm wondering, and according to this book i'm reading, why are we fighting the same problem with the same bad solutions for 90 years now, isn't that futile?
And just in case you're curious, here's the contact info for the New York City affiliate:
HFH of New York City
334 Furman Street, Fl. 2
Brooklyn, N.Y. 11201
I think a Subtalk volunteer day would be a good start to any campaign against the American Dream Coalition.
Mark
The current time from Danbury to GCT is close to 2:00.
http://phone.people.yahoo.com/py/psPhoneSearch.py?srch=bas&D=1&FirstName=C&LastName=Gebhart+&City=&State=&searchFor=Telephone&Search=Search
are potentially Defjef, thanks to his email address
The companies want to use "the real deal", in real New York City subway train cars, in real New York subways (let's face it, sometimes 'ya just gotta do it right!).
My memory says there was a separate line under the downtown 50th st. A/C line -- am I mistaken?
Can someone plz provide me details?
Thanks.
-J-
Nowadays what is used often is the side platforms at Hoyt-Schermerhorn Street in Brooklyn. The side tracks lead into the Transit Museum and host no regular service, and are in plain view if you go to Hoyt-Schermerhorn Street.
But, I think most productions don't bother with the real deal anymore. Frequently the PATH fills in for the subway (particularly on Law & Order) and also Toronto's subway system, and sets in Los Angeles.
There is no train access through either end now. D3 was permanently removed from service through lower-42nd last year and the track connections at each end have been removed. The steel is likely going to come out this year, if it's not already out.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.6 Now Available!
CBS studio in Culver City California has an interior mock up of an incorrect R27 available. It's mounted on a trailer.
150th Anniversary of Horseshoe Curve
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Chuck
No shit sherlock.
: ) Elias
We milled around on 51 street (btw. 5th and 6th ave) for a while and my boss told us we should head home. I walked home to Astoria with a co worker who also lives here.
Sat outside with my dogs in the front yard eating ice pops with my wife and sisters who walked over.
I actually kind of enjoyed it --- "roughing" it gives you a fresh perspective on things - walking around with flashlights and candles...being able to enjoy the quiet without TV or the hum of a computer fan or refrigerator motor.
Crews were told to tell customers of the bypass at Prospect Park and 7th Ave so no cord would be pulled during the bypass.
Then at 5:15p Control says to stop all service running through Atlantic, south trians got via 4th Ave, north trains turn at the Park.
Now 5:30 orders are changed once more, Control tells Brighton to send B trains "out the back door" and have Stillwell route them to fourth Ave via its choice.
Q trains would run north and turn at Prospect Park.
Mr. Lundy and Mr. Howard are very confused.
Anyone know what is happening at Atlantic Ave?
At least I got home, but I have to go out into the city soon and don't know if I will make it. Well at least I'll have fun listening to all the confusion on the radio if I get a seat near the head end on a B train.
As an aside, we've discussed that having 150 foot platforms mean Brighton trains can't be turned at Franklin in an emergency, where people could get the A and C or the IRT at Botanic Garden.
That is so weird. A month ago, the week before the MOD trip, I saw the contractors WITH the station layouts and blueprints. They were all laid out on the IRT lower level, opposite the stairs closest to the LIRR and exit. Now how did these sick people get a hold of them, and why would the contractor just leave them out for all the world to see? I was standing there for 5 minutes before someone spotted me.
Let's hope...
Let's hope...
Control warning Cityhall to keep some trains for northbound service.
Control is still saying it is a Police Investigation.
B trains will operate South through Stillwell via West End and 4th Ave Subway.
That means the D trains were backed up too?
til next time
I come here to read about subways and general transit matters, not photography issues. I couldn't give a flying f__k whether someone is allowed to take a picture or not or whether they get stopped or not. When I'm in someone's house I follow the host's verbal rules and not just her posted rules anyway. But that's beside the point. As far as I'm concerned any post about photography rights, even in the subway system is off topic.
Up until a couple of years ago there was very few posts about photography in the subway. Now it seems to be the predominance of posts. My advise: Take it to a photography website. I'm sure there are plenty.
By the way, this doesn't mean I don't appreciate all the fine photos posted on this site. It just means we don't need 5 posts talking about each picture.
There, I have spoken!!
People bitch and moan too much about stupid things. Photograhpy posts are always clearly labeled...no one is making you read them.
Taking pictures has been a part of railfandom since before either of us was even on this planet.
All the posts about some NYCT employee's anal postion on photography are on topic, since it's about a facit of rail transit.
Therefore, your rant was way off-topic.
While there are PLENTY of off-topic posts that I find annoying
here, I don't think the issue of photography rights in the subway
is one of them. When it degenerates into a stupid political
discussion about the police vs people's rights, harrassment,
persecution & consirpacy theories, then it has gone too far.
I say off topic posts dominate this board :-\. I see nothing wrong with posting images in posts, 90% of the time they are on topic so I will refuse to take this rant seriously.
I never said there is anything wrong with posting images. I was talking about the threads about photography and whether you're allowed or not. I actually enjoy the photos.
It's nice to know your view on civil rights.
"As far as I'm concerned any post about photography rights, even in the subway system is off topic."
As far as I'm concerned, it's the webmaster's decision what is off topic on SubTalk. I enjoy the photos posted here, as you also say you do, and transit photography discussions are within the parameters of what is on-topic, in my opinion. Anyone is free to skip those threads deemed to be not of interest.
That's a lie and you know it! If you follow the rules, you won't get in trouble. KNOW THE RULES.
If you don't want to participate, just skip those threads.
I agree. Let's bring back the Forneys on all the els!!!
High level platforms would be needed for the sake of ADA requirements - they wouldn't have to be the whole train, just a car or two.
The big cost is upgrading the tracks & signals to make the train speed enough to lure folks to ride it. It's a tough sell.
Forneys would be cute however and might draw riders by themselves. Suggest they elevate the line at the next public meeting!!
As for the platforms, odds are they're going to raise the entire thing just b/c that's how one track minded people are. Yeah, I'd settle for having one car have level boarding. I just wish that they'd still have all lows and use lower level boarding cars like Bombardier's double deckers, or Kawasaki's new design.
Grade elmination is another waste.
Especially in Maspeth.
There you *are* correct. This is a freight/industrial switching branch.
All trains are protected by flagmen. This weeks incident was a runaway, and the preventions for this lie elsewhere on the line.
Elias
Grade crossing elimination, on a line that really isn't built yet is no big deal either.
Both of thes would be included in a responsibly designed rail line.
Elias
1) that is simply not so. The contractor doesnt give a hoot how high the platform is, and the day of building it on cinders is long gone. It will be a properly constructed, reniforced platform, with footings below the frost line regardless of how tall it is. I simply cannot se any substantial savings from not elevating them.
2) given the cost of building the line, the cost of platforms, low or high is rather irrelevent.
Elias
I guess my problem isn't exactly with high platform equipment, it's with the idea that there are two largely incompatible platform standards being created. With the advent of low floor near-level-boarding equipment, like the Bombardier/UDTC Bilevel, the Sprinter, and the Talgo, the need to high platform a line 100% where the whole system was once all low platform is gone. In this respect I am thinking of operations like Metrolink, Metra and VRE. All of them, if given the same sized fleet and infrastructure (minus the high plats) as LIRR, NJT or MN would haul as many, if not more people than either of those 3 systems.
I realize that MN has GCT and the insane High Platforming craze that surrounded the arrival of the M1s, and as such low level level boarding equipment is largely wasted there. However there is no longer a need for systems like Metrolink, VRE, Metra, or any other all-low platform operators to transition to high platform boarding equipment just to gain accessibility.
Indeed, high platforms could hurt accesiblity of ambulatory aged people since they generally feature stairs which take the direct way to the platform or a ramp which switchbacks several times to reach the platform height. If an older person who is still ambulatory, but is just barely keeping themselves out of the wheelchair, is running for a train at a high level station, they'll quite obviously go for the stairs, and risk possible injury while trying to climb up to the train. With a low platform station there usually isn't anything between the parking lot, and the station, other than the sidewalk, and a curb with the appropriate number of cutouts where neccesary, the old person could just keep hobbling along and make the train, rather than risk another broken hip trying to do the stairs. Why should the passengers have to climb up into the train, when the train can come down to them just as easily?
I also have a hard time understanding how a high platform is not going to cost more than a low platform. A low platform is some Asphaltic Concrete poured in a roughly rectangular shape, with maybe a step-up box on the rail side, or if not then the universal orange stripe of plastic to keep people back incase the train lunges for them. A high platform is probably a minimum of 20 reinforced concrete supports placed vertically, with Portland Concrete slabs placed or poured over them. I think there's also a steel or reinforced concrete beam which holds the whole thing up. The high platform built like that is much more work to build than a low platform station, and thus by logic is more expensive to build than a low platform station. Admittedly the low-platform station's price would rise a bit if you took a Portland Concrete slab, rather than some Asphaltic Concrete, and a High Platform station cost would drop if you just used piled-dirt instead of reinforced concrete supports, but when's the last time that was done?
If the GO is canceled, does anyone the reschedule date.
Thank you to all who answer.
My guess for #1 is Smith-9 Sts
My guesses about others:
#2 is probably 125th/Broadway
#3 Broadway Junction on the Canarsie Line
#4 Intervale Ave. on the #2/#5 along Westchester Ave.
#5 tie: 102nd Street/Jamaica Ave. on the J/Z; 121st Street on the same line.
That Hoyt_Schermerhorn / Court St mess was another case of thowing good money after bad. The deep tunnel project that made 205th St the end of the IND line was a very costly venture.
One of the greatest failures of NY City in its expenditures for the Dual Contracts and building the IND Line was the failure to finish the Narrows tunnel that would have connected NYC, Brooklyn and Staten Island. Had that venture been completed 70-80 years ago, the city would have expanded its tax base much earlier and would have been able to cover later transit projects and have money for upkeep which zeroed out in the 70's resultig in a dilapidated system, and the aborted 2nd Ave subway. As such, the Narrows bridge was not intended to carry rapid transit. I guess they (the City Planners) thought the Staten Island commuters were going to find all kinds of places to park in Manhattan and not contribute to the gridlock.
The SECOND HIGHEST (in relation to sea level) is 116th st on the (1).
Yeah, I know it's in a tunnel, but it goes DOWNHILL to get onto that high tresstle over 125th Street.
Elias
The SECOND HIGHEST (in relation to sea level) is 116th st on the (1).
Yeah, I know it's in a tunnel, but it goes DOWNHILL to get onto that high tresstle over 125th Street.
Where are you getting your data?
Here are some street level elevations from www.topozone.com:
116th and Bway: 110'
242nd and Bway: 30'
Jerome Ave & Woodlawn Rd: 170'
Jerome Ave & Bedford Park Blvd: 135'
Grand Concourse & Bedford Park Blvd: 135' (where the D is maybe 2 levels down)
175th St and Ft Wash Ave (at which point the A is not very deep): 200'
Fordham Rd and Jerome Ave: 85'
So my guess is:
Woodlawn
175th
BFB on the 4
BFB on the D
Fordham Rd on the 4
116th on the 1
Nope. That is downhill from both 116th Street and 137th Street.
Elias
OK, but I still think your answers were wrong.
See post 674600. I'm pretty sure my answers are correct.
--Mark
It's 125 on Bway.
Does anyone agree?
NINE FLOORS DOWN: THE 191ST IRT RENOVATION
Saturday, March 13, 1:30 p.m.
New York Transit Museum, Brooklyn Heights
The 191st Street IRT station, opened in 1911, is one of three unusual and architecturally striking stations in the NYC subway. Located almost 100 feet below the streets of Washington Heights, the 1,9 tunnels pass through blasted solid bedrock. Elevators and suspended passages make this deepest station in the system a subterranean marvel. Mosaic artist Susan Brown, of Serpentile, has been engaged in several artistic renovations, and is currently reproducing the station's stunning tile work. Ms. Brown will discuss the processes involved, display before-and-after photographs, and have samples of both original work and reproductions to examine.
Free with museum admission.
Buy tokens from a machine; they're much cheaper than paying the cash fare. You can, however, pay full fare in cash to the cashier if that's what you'd rather do.
Yeah its cheaper getting tokens from the machine, I think its like 3.20 if you buy 2 tokens from the machine or cashier. I just wish they'd use a metro card system, tokens are nice and all but I'd like to swipe more then insert a token. :/
And SEPTA does have a card, the Transpass and Trailpass, a weekly transpass is 20 dollars, while a monthly is 70 dollars. A Transpass is good on all CTD routes, Zone 1 and Center City fare zones on the Regional Rail, and Suburban routes with an upgrade fare. The Trailpass comes in a variety of zones, like any other monthly commuter rail pass, but the Trailpasses are good on all City and Suburban Division bus routes too, this basically encourages people to ride transit to and from both their home and their workplace. I'll soon be working in Ft Washington while commuting from University City, I'll be able to catch a 34 trolley to 30th St Station, ride the R5 to Ft Washington and then catch a 201 bus from Ft Washington Station to within a block of my jobsite, all on one zone 3 Trailpass. It's also important to note that weekly and monthly transpasses which during the week are CTD/Suburban-only are good as Anywhere passes on the Regional Rail during the weekend, I haven't been able to take advantage of that yet due to school, but in a few weeks I should have more free time on the weekends.
The thing with the Transpass and Trailpass is that they are not stored value like the Metrocard, they're calender day based. You have can buy it up to the day it becomes active, so right now you can buy a monthly or weekly transpass for April, or for the week of the 14th. But when the booths close tonight the Weekly for the 14th goes away and is replaced by the week of the 21st, while the April transpass will be sold until the time the booth closes March 31st. Our Fareboxes only recognize that the date data is within the right parameters, that that number card hasn't been through within 15 min or so (like the 18 min blackout on the unlimited metrocards, to limited pass-backs) and lets you through. I'm fairly certain it's a read-only process, since the swipe speed is much more robust than the Metrocard readers in NYC.
I do wish we'd abandon the token, it's a pain in the ass to keep track of a nickel-sized coin worth a buck thirty. Yes I have paid for stuff with them using a token as a nickel before, then tried to put a nickel in the coin/token slot on the trolley, only to have the operator look at me funny since I only paid $.05 (fortunately that day I had a lot of change on me).
I do think it'd be hard to keep the multimodal aspect we currently enjoy with the Transpass and Trailpass, it currently is blatantly obvious what month or week your trailpass is from, and whether it is valid on the given commuter train. That could be harder to do with a stored value card like the Metrocard, since all Metrocards basically look the same. One solution would be to just either make the Day, Week and Month passes (now good for 1, 7 and 30 consecutive days, no longer tied to calenders) of a different design than each other, but that could be expensive, to stock all those different cards in the machine. Another solution would be to print the valid from/to date and zone on the card, so the conductor can look at it and see that it is indeed valid, of course that leaves the zone system locked to a calender system, unlike Metrocards, where the 30 days is measured from the day you first use it, the new Transpass would be 30 days measured from when you bought it. Perhaps the ultimate solution would be to give Regional Rail C/Rs a handheld reader for the stored value cards, so that every card becomes good on every mode, even the stored-fare cards. For example if you are going from Suburban Station to Chestnut Hill West on the R8, the C/R swipes your card, you say "Zone 2 please" and it debits $3.75 from your card's account (say you started with 20 bucks in there).
Oh well, this is SEPTA, we'll have the Token til 2050, at least 20 years after everyone else stopped using them.
And for more on SEPTA's Fares, check their website http://www.septa.org/store/index.html
And be sure to note that it says "Septa Routes" in the upper left-hand of the window, despite the fact that there is no mention of routes on that page, it's all about fares.
No longer true. The day pass has paid the whole ride to Norristown and Media for a couple years now (at least for me).
Confused? Say you're going to Springfield Mall. Your Transpass is good to get you to 69th Street Terminal on whatever you take, as well as to get you to the mall on either one of three buses or the 101 Media Trolley. Any stops PAST Springfield Mall will require the $0.50 zone charge. You can also ride straight through to Chester on the 37, Neshaminy Mall on the 14 or 58 (don't try to get past Langhorne on the 14, or you'll be requird to pay 50 cents more), Warminster on the 22, etc, etc... because those routes are City Division operated, yet go far enough into the suburbs to warrant a zone fare (in other words, 69th Street Terminal isn't far enough, nor Darby on the 11 or 13)
Now say you're leaving Market East for Chestnut Hill East at 8:00 AM. Because you're going reverse-peak, you're good to get there with a Transpass... Chestnut Hill East (and Chestnut Hill West) is within the boundaries of the City of Philadelphia If you look at a Regional Rail Line timetable, any trains running in the part of the weekday timetable that's shaded, you can't use a Transpass from ANY Philadelphia station on these trips... just the Zone 1 (i.e. Wayne Junction, Fern Rock, Angora, Olney) and Central Zone (North Broad, North Philadelphia, all three downtown stops, University City, and Temple University) stations. So if you tried to ride from Chestnut Hill East to Market East at 8:00 AM, you'd have to pay extra for riding from Zone 2 with the Transpass. However, because the R3 to West Trenton slips into Montgomery County north of Fern Rock Transportation Center before making the two stops in the far northeast corner of Philly, you can't use the Transpass to get to them except on weekends
Added bonus: Just as the Transpass is good off-peak on any Regional Rail Line between any Philadelphia stations, so is the Zone 3 Trailpass good as an ANYWHERE pass on off-peak trains. Wanna go to Newark, Wilmington, Trenton, West Trenton, or Thorndale in the morning or mid-day hours? Coming back during mid-day or evening hours? A Zone 3 Trailpass is all you'd need. If you'd be commuting regularly using any of those destinations in the morning, and going back to Center City in the evening, you'd be saving money with the Zone 3.
IIRC, the Transpass is good enough for the R1 Airport. Paying cash, Zone 5 peak fares always apply, however the Airport Terminals are physically located in Zone 2. Yet, SEPTA takes Transpasses anytime on that route, probably because that's kinda its only stop (the Airport and Eastwick), and it's still INSIDE the city. Unlike the R7 and R8, which have SEVERAL stations inside the city limits.
Why would I go to the Springfield Mall? I don't need a left-handed can opener.
Leftopolis just made it better for everybody.
If you're happy and you know it shop at Stan's.
Great low prices on all your favorite major brands.
Mark
Chuck Greene
Sunday marks the day the public gets to ride the line, although most of the people will be the Railfans. We will marvel at the line, and we'll make plans to ride this until we get sick of it [which is usually never], and we'll probably get microphones and news cameras in our faces, as well as reporters from the local yokel papers asking what we think about the new line, and whether we will ride it.
In a couple of weeks, the novelty will wear off and the line will join the ranks of "just another transit line".
No matter what, the line is here, and I cannot wait to get on it.
The scenic route !
Bill "Newkirk"
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
However, I take issue with the electrification. Electric traction remains unchallenged as the best way to move people efficiently over rail. Diesels can try, but nothing can match an electric MU or even locomotive pulled set for acceleration, comfort, or even top speed. Even the argument that the ridership on the line does not currently warrent electrification holds little water, the US is getting larger, and as the cities grow they push the suburbs further out. Eventually the people WILL be there for electrification, and by then they'll all be NIMBYs who will decry the "Ugly Catenary", it'll be too late and they'll be stuck with an inferior diesel hauled shittles which provide too little service at too slow a speed. Of course those people will then either head for the NH line directly, the Hudson line, or, far worse, decide to drive into NYC or the vicinity to catch a local NH train, or a subway. This situation is clearly undesirable, since it would leave the Danbury branch overburdened, underutilized, and largely scorned by the people living off it.
Now I can understand a new branch being diesel, with the option of being electrified later, especially since that's exactly what we need here in Philadelphia. Schuykill Valley Metro is being pursued by SEPTA as an all electrified, new-build, gold plated route parallel to existing NS route, some 50 miles to Reading. It will never get built in this version, since it came in at 2 billion dollars minimum, where a diesel system could be operational within 4 years for a quarter that cost. Thus I would sympathize if you were against a 100% electrified system running up to New Milford, however I have a hard time understanding your irrational dislike of improvements to existing lines. The important thing is to get the people moving on the train, of course later you have to keep them there, electrification is one way to do that.
And if MN and ConnDot never study electrification of the Danbury branch, how will they ever know how their service is doing? P32DM-ACs cannot keep it up forever, their acceleration sucks for one, eventually it will likely have to be electrified. Spending a million or two dollars to determine whether or not electrification should be undertaken seems like a small price to pay, especially if the report turns up that it'd be advantageous to the railroad to electrify at this time. Capital improvement projects undertaken today are likely to be cheaper than the same project done 10-20 years down the line.
This was in reference to Mr NIMBYKILLER's post here: http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=673789
There *is* an issue there. It is ok for a handicapped person to board at a low level platform, but when they get off at GCT... What then? How do they get from the lower level to the upper (mid level) of the car? Do these cars have elevators in them? Are there to be ramps? What is the permitted pitch of a handicapped accessible ramp? IIRC it is 1":1'. Your ramp would be longer than the space available in the railcar!
There are two different ramp pitches cited in the building codes, and of course, they do not agree. The NFPA standard (What may be called an "exit") is different (and earlier) than the ADA standard. In other words, what the fire code will accept for an exit is far steeper than what ADA will allow for accessibility.
Elias
And *THAT* will be more expensive than building the whole damn Millford Line!
Sheesh, what you be thinking of!
CHEAPEST is building High Level Platforms on the New Millford!
BTW: New Millford is where I had my appendix out, back when I was about 12 years old. There was a NH switch engine in the station that facinated me, and the crew offered to give me a ride, but my mom declined the offer as we were due for a follow up doctor's appointment.
Elias
Then again, Metro-North could spend the money and then be fired by Connecticut DOT in favor of a new operating contractor. That's not likely, but the risk still isn't worth taking. (Compare with Shore Line East; MN wanted that contract, but CDOT hired Amtrak instead.)
Also, did they cancel the shuttle buses on the 2/5 this weekend? The mta site says it won't be until next weekend, now.
Yuri attempted a picture, hopefully it comes out once he develops his photos.
Maybe they're getting ready for the R-160's. You know, using the R-143's to program stops on lines for the automated annoucements for the R-160's. That's my guess.
Bill "Newkirk"
In REVENUE would have been a surprise though. :)
Don't give DefJef any ideas though! : - )
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
With CBTC on the (L) on the horizon, it's unlikely the R-143's will leave the confines of the Eastern Division. The R-160's, will either be very similar or identical to the R-143's. So it would make sense to use the R-143's for the station stop programming. After all, you wouldn't expect them to use the "arnines", but that would be a twist !
Bill "Newkirk"
Where I'm going is I could see the usual suspects applying "political pressure" as was done back in my days with the "air conditioned cars" being demanded to make an appearance on EVERY line, even if it was only ONE train and it was headed the wrong way when YOU spotted it. C'mon, Unca Bill ... I *know* you were around to eyeball THAT sitch-i-ation PERSONALLY. And remember how everybody pythed and moaned when QUEENS got all the air-conditioned cars and every other line just got ONE train of them? Hell ... they even ran a set of 8 44's on the damned CC train just to stop the political whining about "we don't get ANYTHING from da man" ... (no offense, back THEN those words got RESULTS) ... and EVERYBODY got at least ONE "air conditioned train" on their home line. Until a few got scratched up on the Jamaica line. Whoops. :)
As far as arnines go, if they wanna bring 'em out, I say "bring it ON!" Be happy to go play with Westcode and do schoolcar again. You were there for my last appearance at Branford ... heh. I enjoyed myself immensely going "balls to the wall" with 1689. Had Unca Lou *mighty* nervous a few times there with "yo ... watch *THIS*" ... heh. Arnines can do amazing things - was disappointed though with the short express run I got to do - I woulda shown everyone how an Arnine can pop a wheelie if only I could get about 6 MPH out of her before I had hit the damned timers. (grin)
So I wouldn't dismiss the possibility of 143's being deployed here and there as "100th anniversary runs" across the system as "signs of things to come" much like the ONE train of 110's in each division. Politicos do ODD things, and after all - there's an ELECTION coming. Woo-woo. :(
But I think your idea makes a whole lot more SENSE ... MTA's a political entity so scratch THAT idea. =)
Politics among other things probably played a part in the equipment assignments. The 'F' line runs through areas of Queens and Brooklyn that at the time had some powerful politicians in Albany and City Hall. But when was politics not ever a factor in transit or anything else in NYC?
...Until a few got scratched up on the Jamaica line. Whoops...
--The TA ran tried to run R44/46 on the Broadway/Jamaica El??
But what I desribe goes back over a decade earlier when the TA had HALF the 40's air conditioned, and the other half, PATHETICALLY "cooled" by louvers with fan air running through them. And the 42's and 44's were STILL being "distributed" ... once upon a time, a B division passenger had as much of a chance of getting an "air conditioned car" as hitting LOTTO. Heh.
Back in 1970, *BONUS!* (best Keanu Reeves voice) ... =)
I also remember staying with grandparents in Queens around the same time and a TV news report, in fact a big story, about the first trains with air conditioning running on some line or another. I remember my grandfather using some word like "impossible."
I also remember the occasional dark car on the E in the early 80's before the R-46's went for GOH. That just made the other cars a lot more crowded.
And FIGURES, it would have bloomed on the *IND*! But yeah, once upon a time, it was really SPECIAL to have an air conditioned ride ... and at the time, I *still* preferred the fanned cars like arnines and such. Summer "colds" were unheard of prior to air-conditioning and "sealed environments where germs were constantly recirculated." Silly me, I avoided air-conditioned cars like the plague - literally. :)
REDBIRDS with A/C? As natural as "gay weddings" ... and yet somehow, we can't live WITHOUT them anymore. Shows you the passings of sensibilities ... 'cept for pooliticals. (grin)
Not true. This portion remained well into the '80s-platforms and all. In fact, the TA stored trains on that lower level until the '80s which meant the connection signals to the White Plains Line were also intact into the '80s.
PS- i know to people on this board, this may REALLY stupid, but i am new to the whole subway enthusiast thing and i would just like to know about: Timers. Thnak you.
-Chris
Don't feel bad for asking - if you checked nycsubway.org and it wasn't there, then you should ask.
At least your not complaining or proposing new subway lines with a map and crayon - now THAT'S stupid!
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Beach's line started under Murray St and turn south under Broadway for a block. The tunnel under B'way was definitely destroyed. No one really knows if the station is still there because the building that allowed the entrance via the basement was torn down long ago.
-Chris
Chris: There is nothing stupid about your question. The ones that throw out the word "Stupid" on this board don't know half as much as they think they do.
It was quite observant of you to notice the difference in tunnel construction. In order for the BMT to get from Church Street to Broadway it must pass underneath the graveyard of Saint Paul's Church. In order to do this the line becomes two separate single track iron tubes for about 630 feet. The bottom of the tunnels in 4 feet below mean high water. This was built as part of Section 1A of Construction Route #5. This information is from a consturction history of the line by the late Dave Rogoff.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Anyone know?
Thanks :)
The look simiar to the last subway cars ads they ran awhile back. And the print is much smaller than the prior stickers we were accustomed to.
Do these glow in the dark? And did the change any of the instructions?
I'm curious as to why they are replacing them.
Both photos were taken last Tuesday. Now there will be another station for disabled customers who want to transfer between A and B divisions. 161st-Yankee Stadium was the first, the second is more indirect; from Grand Central on the IRT lines to the shuttle to Times Square for the BMT Broadway line.
Read every one.
DO NOT REPLY
That's what trolls want. A reply to their post and the follow-ups.
Don't Reply, and the threads won't develop and will die, and since the trolls won't gather a single reply they will go away.
Bill "Newkirk"
There's something wrong with these figures, there has to be. Are they tagging on a virtual rebuild of Route 7 and charging the whole thing off to Metro-North?
A bit of financial chicanery well within the capabilities of Connecticut DOT.
1.x$Billion dollars *is* after all a trivial sum.
(amortized over the 50year depreciation life of the upgrade)
What planet have you been on all of your life?
Nah... That is dirt cheap for what it is.
Yes, I do suspect that new HSR would in fact be less costly.
The Milford lion is an already existing "on the ground" line that would require realighnments (property aqusitions) highway realignments (more property aqusitions) and more, inculding all new stations, parking lots and related infrastructure.
Builsing a new HSR along the existing Interstate System ROW at a constant grade separation would cost a whole heck of alot less, because the ROW already exists in a high-speed compatible configuration. Stations would be every 50 to 100 miles, not every 2 to 5 miles.
Elias
At 6% interest, that is maybe $75 million per year. Still a lot of money for a small market.
Also # 4 train run Local from Woodlawn to Brooklyn Bridge
I pity them.
A guy asked me while I was recording " Is this train going uptown?". I was secretly thinking "What do you think, sherlock!?", but I smiled, and nodded my head while saying " Yup, it's going up to the bronx".
I don't understand how people can manage to ignore EVERYTHING around them, *sigh*....
I don't understand neither but there's nothing we can do, you always have people who will not bother with looking at signs and such. :-\.
"Are you a child?" the conductor asked, facetiously.
"No, not any more," Twain responded with a glare. "But I was when I got on your damn train."
I'm a lumberjack and I'm OK
I sleep all night and I work all day
I cut down trees, I eat my lunch
I go to the lavatory
On Wednesdays I go shopping
And have buttered scones for tea
I'm a lumberjack and I'm OK
I sleep all night and I work all day
I cut down trees, I skip and jump
I like to press wild flowers
I put on women's clothing
And hang around in bars
I'm a lumberjack and I'm OK
I sleep all night and I work all day
I cut down trees, I wear high heels
Suspenders and a bra
I wish I'd been a girlie
Just like my dear Papa ["Mama" in very first version]
http://www.intriguing.com/mp/
A man with three buttocks.
A Scotsman on a horse.
The elevated train system was completely shutdown by this unexpected late winter storm that was so windy and violent that on some side streets the snow on the north side was piled up to the 2nd floor while the south side was blown clean!! A huge chunk of ice eventually made its way down the Hudson and somehow turned around and got stuck in the East River, creating a temporary bridge that some brave folks use to cross between NY & Brooklyn.
Thanks for reading....
I'd never heard of that before ... pretty amazing, when you think of it.
Quite clever, as the people on the ice wouldn't have much choice but to pay. You might call it the first (and last) time New York has seen "exit swipes" :)
And to answer some questions about the CAF trains running Orange: The color swatches that Metro uses on the LEDs are indeed a slightly darker color for Orange than they use for Yellow. I unfortunately could not get a photo of the LEDs because instead of reversing direction after arriving at Vienna, the train instead went out of service (it was after 11:00 on a weekday night, so that's understandable). So I have a beautiful shot of the "NO PASSENGERS" LED, but not the Orange swatches.
Also, I had a T/O for this particular trip that did say "Orange Line to Vienna/Fairfax" for all the stations, not just upon arriving at Vienna. This guy was also saying "your" for everything. "Your next station is __________" and "This is your Orange Line train to Vienna/Fairfax".
Ben F. Schumin :-)
When do we get a full trip report from Wednesday either here or on your website?
One thing to note, though - after taking a look at the supposed "eight car train" movie at Ballston that I talk about on the computer screen (as compared to the camera's screen) where I can watch it in more detail than the computer, it turns out to be a six-car train. Still, the angle I'm at (near the first escalator on the New Carrollton side) does really make the train look long.
I'm also going to incorporate some of the photos and movies into my upcoming Transit Center site.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
This got me to wondering if this rise in scrap prices will cause cash strapped railroads and transit agencies to start seeing green in the a lot of the rail history tied up in their physical plant. This includes derlict historic rolling stock to abandonned el and bridge structures to long out of service rail lines and spare tracks to old steel signal masts, gantries and catenary towers. Could the dissapearance of the old B&O SIRT car in the Howland Hook yard be a symptom of this new found demand for scrap?
Any thoughts?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What SIRT car was scrapped (or at least disappeared)? Was it one of the steel deck-roof cars? If so, why was it around so late?
Frank Hicks
BSM runs right next to Falls Road, which is a public street that is in an insolated piece of Baltimore, just two blocks from Penn Station.
Our wire went up in early 1970, and every foot of it is still there, so it wasn't us or National Capital.
Knowing our inter-museum contections, I'm surprised we didn't hear about it.
Removing things just for money may not be worth it. The money recieved for scrapping old steel "things" may not always par for the labor costs to remove the "stuff."
Matthew Mummert
Chuck
If allt he fools that reply to his posts would stop replying, he would stop posting.
Actually, I think maybe I'll start a campaign to get rid of anyone that posts "We need a campaign to get rid of DefJef". There seems to be more of that crap than there is foolhardy posts from him. People need to grosw up, ignore him, and get on with life.
Oh, and did I say DON'T reply tohis posts?
In the mean time, (though I don't think this will travel far) I think we should also start a "SubTalk Blocks Out Sir Ronald of McDonald Campaign" (SBOSROMC). He is also rude troll who has a lesson to learn. Look in the archives under the handle "Sir Ronald of McDonald" and take a look at how many times he has spoken rudely to me or about me.
The examples:
1) "4traintowoodlawn is an incompetent nincompoop."
2) "4traintowoodlawn is lying about his age."
3) (and this was actually against Jarid Maged, in response to some R62 bench seat photos. I feel sorry for Jarid) "So what, now you think you're some kind of big shot??? Well let me tell you these photos won't buy you anything but a 24 OZ. bottle of JACK SQUAT!"
4) "4traintowoodlawn doesn't really get angry. It's all a big show."
5) (in response to that post I made exactly 2 weeks ago) "LOL! Fool."
He's a dreadful troll with an even worse attitude who should be banned, IMO.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
THAT is the kindof user thats hould be banned.
til next time
:)
Oops, I guess not. Sorry.
til next time
til next time
Clayton versus Brian
Dude versus NIMBY
and now...
NPD versus 4TTWL
It never stops.
I have been pretty much quiet on this issue but I'm always amazed at how these petty online feuds even start. It's sad really.
You have great photos, BTW.
I like this one the most:
til next time
:)
I sent him an e-mail in January about a visit to BSM (since he's in northern VA), and he never replied. Either yes, no or maybe.
He's still in my address book, but if you don't reply, I don't know if you ever got it.
Especially when I am more than twice his age.
I don't like some of what a particular poster puts up, and sometimes I say so and criticize it (whether I am too harsh or not, fine that's a question sometimes).
But Brian posts great pics and has a great website with a lot of cool material and often has very relevant things to say - as you do and others do, too. "Google" or "Yahoo" him and see what I mean.
Enough already. Give it a rest.
Here it is again for those who didn't bother to read it:
Here's what ALL SubTalkers should do with ALL posts made by trolls like DefJef:
Read every one.
DO NOT REPLY
That's what trolls want. A reply to their post and the follow-ups.
Don't Reply, and the threads won't develop and will die, and since the trolls won't gather a single reply they will go away.
Thank you for taking the time to read this.
-Chris
What I can't figure out is why, after posting the same thing about how to get rid of trolls, nobody but a couple of SubTalkers (you included) bothered to say "right on".
It's so easy.
Read.
Do NOT Reply>
It's soooo easy, it costs nothing but WILLPOWER.
I put DefJef in my killfile (which has nothing but handles of troll posters in it) and I'm surprised at the "good" SubTalkers who respond when he posts his junk. They are the ones who post things like Troll pics and "go away, we don't want you" post and don't realize they are adding fuel to the troll fire.
Dave wants us to be self-policing so use the easy way.
Am I doomed to repeat myself over and over?
Many of us oldbies don't remember that either because it NEVER HAPPENED!
Now we're gettin' rediculous. No need to add to the webmasters' computing burden. You're just gonna have to practice a logical analysis routine when reading Subtalk threads. Make selection decisions based on the results of that analysis.
What next? Smileys, color-coding, icons, "subject panels", "special features", etc. etc. etc.? Bah. Mere eye candy...and detrimental to the Prime Directive: Talk About Trains. HTML is good enough groovy for me.
THEY'RE RIDICULOUS!!!
While I have responded once [out of 4-5 topics going on now] in this latest tirade against DefJef and trolls, I hate to say it but his last post made sense and if you don't like it too bad. I will say no more on this matter b/c I choose to use my # of available posts more wisely, unlike some of you :-\. Don't like the posts, don't respond, plain and simple!
-Chris
you're
--UP
by not closing your tags properly. You did it here (675359) too.
There does seem to be an anti-rail backlash, based on an alliance of convenience between auto-types and poor bus riders. This may be, in part, due to the fact that with some exceptions light rail is successful and popular, so it is feared as a possible competitor for funds.
One issue -- political types link projects like South Jersey Light Rail with NYC projects like the Second Avenue Subway, even though the NYC subway covers most of its operating costs and in fact subsidizes the bus system.
I think I have an answer for the light rail critics.
In the 1930s, 40s, 50s, and 60s, the United States built hugely expensive, empty highways in rural areas where no one was. In some cases, those highways are still empty, and a drain on the tax base of Metropolitan Areas. In other places, they enabled the development of the suburbs, and the abandonment of the cities. The transportation came first, the development later.
Light rail is also going to places that are abandoned, with few riders, at a high cost and with a limited return in the short run. The long run may be different.
Maybe that's what they are afraid of.
NJT wasn't going to build "heavy" or "commuter" rail in the mid-90's. They wanted light rail. Light rail to Glassboro could've worked, but only Woodbury city was vocally for it. All the others were against it, including the freeholders.
this is really a lesson in what one gets when one panders to Nimbys. Give them an inch, they take a mile.
FYI the NIMBIES in Moorestown are upset cause they'd need to relocate lo-income housing into a hi-income area.
So you'd rather have commuter rail, which bascially doubles as an alternative to building a lane on a highway or more. And that's pretty much it. A safer more economic alternative to driving. But you're still keeping the costly tax pits along the river. Not to mention I normally support commuter rail, it's a good blockade against sprawl, which is too late to save Jersey(90% built up).
What you're failing to see, is the same thing anti-rail people fail to see. The end forward thinking product. It may costs a lot now to build LRT, but in the end the commuter line would be more costly in the tax rolls. LRT spurs growth, which increases tax rates, which increases income and declines crime.
You have a city which has an 8 county area in two states, part of a larger region called the Tri-State area. A city where people flee to suburb after suburb, and when their suburb turns crappy, they go out to the next suburb. Forget SVM and people living ridiculously far, they could be in Jersey, along the riverline. It makes more sense. Jersey would like that too.
And remember the saying a few years ago, "An acre per hour"? That was what they were calling sprawl in PA from suburbization. As a whole in the region, that costs a LOT more than what you call the "doggle".
When you say "cheap", you're doing the same thing anti-rail people do, such as when O'Toole critized Portland as a textbook urban planning failure. Big government projects last a long time, and you have to consider the life of the project, not just the construction of it.
The did point out some winners and losers, but they put Buffalo on the loser list. I thought of the Buffalo line as complete idiocy, another tax funded white welfare payoff upstate.
Then I saw the FTA data on he operating cost per passenger for the light rail line, vs. the Niagara Frontier bus service. The operating cost per rider was $2.28 for the buses, $2.21 for light rail, in 2000, even though it was a small, one line, under-developed system. I'd say that's cheaper.
In St. Louis, which is listed as a success, the light rail cost was only $1.38 per rider.
Bite your tongue about a light rail line to Glassboro. First choice is PATCO type service. Given the existance of the River line, connecting light rail may be the second choice, barely beating out commuter rail.
60 minute headway doesn't do a whole lot to alleviate rush hour traffic.
Well of course there'd be more rush hour trains. The 60 minute headways would be during the day and evening.
NJ Transit's accomplishments in Northern NJ are most commendable. They help citizens and communities in NJ and NY by expanding the transportation web across the region. south Jersey needs more of that kind of accomplishment.
The alternative for a billion. 10 miles of adding an extra lane on urban highway after we use imminate domain to tear down some houses. All while keeping the tax draining money pits the way they are in some cities.
Or commuter rail which serves park and ride locations and the only effect is a few cars off some freeway somewhere.
Least now you might get more than casino's to pay your fiscal budget, while reducing crime, because cops and prisons aren't cheap.
Light rail is also going to places that are abandoned, with few riders, at a high cost and with a limited return in the short run. The long run may be different.
As already is happening with the HHLR after just a few years. It's also been said that development has grown along LRT lines in Portland and Denver, maybe elsewhere. If anything, the lag between transit expansion and development is shorter than the lag between highway expansion and development.
...
But people such as Jeffrey Lucas, president of Jeffrey D. Lucas and Co., a real estate and economic development agency in Mount Laurel, see potential.
"I've had companies choose the business location and measure how close to the rail line we'll be so they can attract employees and have them take public transportation to work," Lucas said. "We've had companies locate on Route 130 knowing that the county is going to do a shuttle bus to light-rail stations."
Bob Haines, a real estate agent in Burlington City, is equally enthused.
"I think it's going to be a big story, maybe not overnight," Haines said.
He said homebuyers in the Burlingtons and Beverly City have been interested in the light rail, including a man who plans to use the line to commute into Newark by connecting with the Northeast Corridor line in Trenton.
"We can't say it's overwhelming, but it's there," Haines said.
Meanwhile, the majority of Americans may still prefer a suburban, auto-oriented lifestyle, but that is also what the majority of America is. The supply exceeds the demand, prices are (relatively) falling, and as the older suburbs hit age 50, the housing stock is starting to passed down to those with less money. Perhaps some old Brooklynites can predict what will happen next.
By the way, I just picked up a new copy of the Statistical Abstract of the United States, 2003 edition. New York City's crime rate is now 1/2 the rate of Tulsa Oklahoma, the Sunbelt city where my immediate family ended up after my father lost his job in the 1970s recession (the rest of them are still there, only I came back). The rape rate is 1/3, but New York was always low in rape. The big surprise is the murder rates are equal. (We're still big in robbery, the real New York crime).
You are doing what the media always does, blowing things out of proportion by choosing words/phrases that make things look a lot worse than they really are.
Just like a story about an accident a few years back on I-5 in San Clemente. Headlines read "Tour Bus accident kills five". What happened? Five German tourists rented a van from Budget Rent-A-Car and slammed into the back of a stopped truck. It was NOT a "tour bus", it was a rented van. made the whole tour bus industry out here look like idiots.
Unbelievable!
Basically what I'm trying to say is this: If SEPTA is so bad [service wise, finacially, and its bad labor relations], then why can't the "powers that be" decide to DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT? Do these people really care?
If SEPTA could avail itself of the "Baltimore transit labor fix", the contstant problem with TWU234 would go away.
Chuck Greene
You may like a place that rolls up the sidewalks at 5 P.M. [like Harrisburg], but I prefer "Bright Lights, Big City", where the sidewalks don't go in until the wee hours of the morning [Philly] or NEVER [NYC]!.
Are you coming to meet us at 36th street at 5:27 am tomorrow morning(Sunday)?
Chuck Greene
Good economy, people command their own wage increases and pleanty of perks. That's why we were so close to a 4 day work week(4 10 hour days) which make more sense than our current sitution. But instead with layoff's people are doing 2 persons work.
Too bad. I hope they strike until they go broke and their cars get repo'd.
Mark
This morning a southbound 6 was about 50' short of the 68th St platform when there was a very small expolosion and the train immediately started braking at a strong steady rate and came to a stop halfway in the station.
Then there was 30 seconds of silence. Then 15 seconds of air hissing. Then the train pulled the rest of the way into the station.
I assume the train ran over a small piece of solid debris. There was a smell of roasted steel dust coming out of the tunnel after the incident.
With the information in the original post, it's not possible to determine what caused the emergency brakes to apply.
David
USED to be if you hit a signal, got dumped through no fault of your own, the system (AND the trains) was designed to let you clear, kick your tripper if necessary and *GO* ...
All this nonsense further underlines to me the CONTEMPT with which the MTA holds their "professionals". Harumph. :(
*GLAD* I got OUT of it when I did. :(
The fastest possible senerio would be that the T/O dumpped the handle, took his peenalty and continued.
The next possibility is that he was tripped. Now the T/O must get off the train, go down to the tracks, close the valve by hand, then climb back up into the train to recharge and go.
The third possibility is that some goose pulled the cord. On newer trains a light will display which car was pulled, but on older equipment the C/R (and the T/O if they are in a hurry) will have to walk through the train to find out which brake handle was pulled, and to reset the valve.
Another possibility is the train did not go BIE at all, but the T/O was in control of the brakes the whole time: Heard a sound, appled the brakes, figured out hee was ok, and contiued movement into the station. No peenalty time for that on because he never dumped.
Elias
Quite possible. I haven't heard this on the R142/143, but the R32 and R46 will sound as if it went BIE from the quick movement of air if the T/O takes a hard brake or wraps the handle around pretty quickly. Never heard it though on anything other than the aforementioned equipment.
The ASC (automated signal control) system "drops code" frequently, and Red Line trains (especially the older 1500, 1600, and 1700 sereis) go BIE frequently. I only ride three stops each way on my commute to/from work, and I'll bet I experience an average of two code-drop caused BIE's a week.
What do they do? CHARGE, and GO. Of course, the operators can see the code drop, so they know the cause.
Sometimes, they charge very quickly. Then again, the penalty time would make it
difficult to do a brake test.
Stopped... 1 Buzz to C/R... momentary pause.... 2 buzzes to C/R... we were off again.
A real non-event.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
I'll put my newest photos on SubwaySpot.com later.
As will I.
Note: I couldn't E-mail you because my Outlook Express isn't working.
Try again...
The aging signs:
1) At times, it operates at an EXTREMELY slow pace.
2) Outlook Express doesn't work for sending messages out.
3) The internet disconnects sometimes.
718-248-9877
Am I right?
I don't see any map insert, unless you're referring to a specific page.
Next showing is at 4AM tomorrow.
Here is where you can read about it.
http://www.sundancechannel.com/film_finder/index.php
It's opening tomorrow at the Quad on 13th Street between 5th & 6th Avenues(212-255-8800).
Here's links to two reviews.
http://www.24framespersecond.com/reactions/reaction.php?reaction=marathon
http://www.sover.net/~ozus/marathon.htm
At home, she plays CD's with subway noises on them. I wonder if she has my R9 tape?
It is indeed a strange movie. The opening shot was a stunningly detailed trackside shot of a crossover. There were other great shots of the woman working on her crossword puzzles as a train comes into the station. At one location, due to curved tracks leading into the station, it looked like the train was coming right at her.
I was surprised to read in this reveiw of the movie that due to a low budget, the people riding the trains with her were actual passengers.
Star-Ledger review of Marathon
There are only 2 actors in the film and almost no dialogue. The movie does give an excellent look at a person obsessed with something and consumed by the obsession.
Speaking of obsessions, I was talking about SubTalk with some people last night and likened it to the compelling quality of a television soap opera. Over the years, I've gotten familiar with most of the recurring characters and their failings. While I realize that SubTalk is a fantasy, I tune in to see what new depths the discourse will descend to. Rarely a day goes by without some new intrigue to keep me coming back for more. Unfortunately in the last year or so, the producers and writers of Subtalk have brought in a new cast of posters whose presence has lead to a loss of the more stable members of the audience.
June 5, 2004
SubTalk DC Scavenger Hunt
A SubTalk field trip with a twist! You will be grouped in two's or three's (each team will have a "local" railfan so no team will be without a representative from the DC Area). In essence, it will be a scavenger/treasure hunt of sorts---Clues will be given out at the beginning, which will lead to another station, where they'll get their next clue, and so on until the first team arrives at the final station---will win bragging rights to being "Top Banana" of the Metro!
Here's a little insight on the rules:
1. All clue locations will be at an entrance pylon of a rail station, where you will find Mark or John. You will meet both of us at Union Station at 9:00 so you know what we look like.
2. You can go from station to station via rail AND/OR Bus but you can't walk between closely placed stations (i.e. Metro Center & Gallery Place).
3. John and Mark will be assembling a prize package that includes, among other things, wall maps and other collectibles.
Logistics:
Meeting place: Gate G in Union Station (same place as for the past DC trips)
Start time: 9 AM (tentatively)
Finish time: 7-8 PM at the same place (tentatively, this is to ensure that no group is riding the rails until closing at 3 AM Sunday morning)
You will need to buy a day pass for 6 dollars (all clues will be issued outside fare control). At least one clue will be centered around a station with a variety of food options for lunch en route.
Please e-mail Mark (mgreenwald@chartercom.com) if you are planning on attending. Include your name, handle, whether you have a strong knowledge of DC or need to be paired with one, and whether or not you have a Verizon cell phone (Verizon works on almost every underground section of the MetroRail enabling communication if necessary, ideally, there would be at least one Verizon phone per team).
Hope to see you all there! More details forthcoming later.
Project Scope
This project is divided into several concurrent in-house and consultant design projects. The first is construction of a second track along the Main Line between Paterson Junction and the "XW" Interlockings [about six miles]. The second is the design and installation of six passing sidings on the PVL (three primary, two secondary and modification to one freight siding). The third consists of reconfiguration of three interlockings on the Main Line at locations east of Ridgewood Station, west of Waldwick Station, and at the Hackensack River crossing in West Secaucus.
Project Cost
$63.3 million
Note that this project is remarkably similiar to Connecticut's "scaled down" option, the one that "only" costs $1.09 billion.
Back to the harm: it was causing major disturbances when I went through there at 6:00PM or so tonight to the Q train going by. There was at least 20 minutes between Q trains when I was there so that two Js in a row can relay. My train ran express from Newkirk to Sheepshead Bay to make up time, on the local track. Guess if they tried to send it down the express track, it would've been worse.
They should have just said "4 train not running, use the 2 or the R." There would have been less service, but people can understand "No 4 train" as opposed to "No 4 train, use J, which is running on the Brighton line." They could have ran the M through and down its regular line and labeled it "special weekend M service." Or, at least extend the J express to Brighton Bch where it's easier to turn trains. Would've required, what? 3 or 4 more trains?
til next time
Photos of the J on the Brighton.
The reason why the J was diverted to the Brighton line was because a related G.O. on the 4th Ave line had all southbound service running express from Pacific to 59th st. So J trains cannot relay at Pacific Street because you have the N, R, and D using the express track. So it was a joy to see the old J train return to the Brighton (remember the QJ?)
Enjoy!
til next time
til next time
In any case, it's nice to see my own J line on the ever morphing Brighton Line.
It's too bad by the time I have my hands on a camera tomorrow, if so, it'll be too late to head out. Dash it all.
But some Subtalkers do kinda call me by a 3rd name, which I elect not to use at this time. :-D
(Looks into my coat pockets to see what I have!) :-)
W Bwy Lcl
Larry, RedbirdR33
Thanks Andy: I seem to recall that it was a high level platform from the start and I thought that a high level platform on the LV would have been a bit unusual.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Yes it was on the LV and it struck me as odd that the LV would have had a high level platform. Of note is that with the implementation of the Aldene Plan a page(s) contaning passenger train schedules returned to the LV Employee timetable.
With so much going on with the NYC Subways that year a vist to the Jersey railroads was a rare treat
Thanks, Larry, RedbirdR33
Tommy: Thanks for the info. I rode the last CNJ train into Jersey City that Saturday night and the next day rode the CNJ over the new route.
Larry, RedbirdR33
I rode the Aldene a couple months later. In Lindbergh-era coaches (as David Morgan once described them) behind a big CNJ FM Trainmaster. And we flew once we got on the old LV west of Hunter Tower. But it was a paltry substitute for the old Jersey City Terminal. (E'port, the Bay Bridge, the terminal itself, the ferry ride.) ;=C
Another train (3514) followed, transporting LIP's (less important people).
The Camden ceremony was at the Aquarium station because that's where Governor Whitman turned the first shovel of dirt.
Photos of the trains, including all four wrapped trains, are on Subway Spot.
-Chris
-Chris
My guess is that at minimum 2,200 cameras would be needed.
Cameras can do two types of things. Crime prevention and crime investigation. Cameras will always be pretty good at letting people "go to the tape" to investiage a particiular crime. With terrorism catching the ppl responsible is sort of hollow when tens or hundreds of people lay dead. Moreover if it is a suicide attack going to the tape realy isn't worth much at all. Crime prevention requires real time human analysis of the video feed. For this to be effective you can't multitask the monitors too much. So if you want cameras to prevent terror attacks you'll need an army of people to staff the operations center.
Passenger and employee lives. Just not yet thankfully!
Look at it this way. What country has the most experiance with and probably spends more per capita to prevent terror attacks? Israel. How effective have they been at stoping suicide bus bombers? Not very.
You need to get some perspective. Spend the camera $$ on like a public health initiative and you'll save far more lives. Heck, you'd probably save more lives starting a new commuter line simply by getting drivers off the road.
A tad big-brotherish, perhaps, but it made this visitor feel more secure.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.6 Now Available!
One thing I noticed when in London last January was a heavy police presence in Tube and rail stations. You are correct, however, that police weren't very visible elsewhere.
Most of the police I saw in stations seemed to be quite physically commanding, as if they could handle just about any problem with minimal difficulty. I suppose they have to be that way since most of them aren't armed. With few exceptions, they were much more physically capable-looking than the NYPD.
Don't forget the casino cameras are aimed at the employees just as much as they are aimed at the public...
WMATA has cameras in their stations sense the system opened. The monitors are in the station managers kiosk. The stations early on had black and white vidacon tube cameras and black and white monitors in kiosks. All of the cameras have been upgraded to CCD color cameras and color monitors in the station managers kiosk. Selected cameras are connected to surveillance tape recorders similar to what is used in banks. The program to install to install tape recorders was stared more the 5 years ago. Selected cameras are connected to the communication network and can be monitored in the OCC (Operations Control Center).
John
This is quite true.
however NYC Subway stations would require extensive amounts of cameras per station due to the pillers and general design of the stations obstructions.
Most if not all of the stations have more cameras then they did when they opened. At the minimum most stations
have at least 8 cameras some have as many as 20.
Not to mention the amount of stations would require a command center with a zillion monitor sets, with an army to monitor em 24/7.
Like I said, "The monitors are in the station managers kiosk, selected cameras are connected to surveillance tape recorders similar to what is used in banks, and selected cameras are connected to the communication network and can be monitored in the OCC (Operations Control Center)."
The army is already in place and the surveillance tape recorders can let one have a second look.
John
I had been thinking about the 'Newton Problem', which is the issue that Green Line trains on the D-branch run at a very low load factor beyond Reservoir.
Consider this: Peak loads at Brookline Village (peak load point for the whole line) is approximately twice the peak loads at Chestnut Hill (peak load point for the Newton Portion). Thus, by conventional methodology, trains should depart Reservoir twice as often as from Riverside, to carry twice as many passengers.
But here is the catch. People in Newton pay assessments, and people in Brookline pay assessments. Both also pay sales tax. Of course, it is hard to ascertain which one pays more sales tax and assessment combined. And there is no reason why service levels should be tied to payment, especially when most of the capital dollars are Federally funded. But politically, this argument seems to have clout, and degrading Newton-portion's rush-hour service to every 10 minutes rather than every 5 seems to be totally impossible.
Congestion pricing based purely on passenger numbers would reduce the loads in the Brookline section, but also reduce loads in the Newton section, since people boarding in Newton must also pass through the peak load point to get to where they are trying to go. Not may people work at Reservoir which is on the Boston/Brookline/Newton border. Pricing to discourage Brookline boardings would be allocating capacity unfairly in favor of Newtonites.
The other problem is, if frequency beyond Reservoir was really cut, Newton boardings would be even less than it is now. It gets to the point pretty fast where service to Riverside cannot be justified at all. Do I want to see the Riverside branch abandoned? Hell, no.
How would you deal with this scenario, given that:
(1) Newton must have every 5-min service on the D branch
(2) Service from Reservoir to Park St. can't really be increased to any more than every 5-mins because of tunnel capacity issues
(3) You have freedom to change fares
(4) Your objective is to maximize asset utilization (i.e. Revenue Passenger Mile per Available Seat Mile)
AEM7
Good service planners should know answers to all those questions off by heart. Of course, considering that you're not from Boston:
(1) Riverside trains turn at Lechmere, but you can change that if you want.
(2) Lechmere to Reservoir is about 50 minutes; Reservoir to Riverside is about 20 minutes. Running times are highly sensitive to loads.
(3) Dwell time vary depending on the operator AND the passenger loads to more of an extent than most people imagine. I have personally timed dwell times in the range of 10 seconds to 150 seconds per stop. Some operators will make 10 second stops if they see no one on the platform; 150 second stops result from having a bus that arrives with massive number of transfer passengers just as a train is about to leave. Actually, I don't see why dwell time is relevant to this discussion, but if it helps, here's the generally accepted Dwell time formula for light rail vehicles with stairs, coin payment:
Dwell Time = 10 seconds per stop + 2.5 seconds per boarding + 1.5 seconds per disembarkation.
And out of interest, here is the passenger activity, expressed in average boardings per time-period:
RIVER,WDLND,WBAN,ELOT,NWTHL,NWTCNR,CNHIL,RES,BCNSFLD,BKHILLS,BKVILLE,LNGWD,FENWY
150,150,50,100,150,150,100,275,125,175,250,100,75
(Data is approximate, to prevent mis-use)
Really? I have worked in the rail transit industry for many years, including service planning, and the only way to get answers is first determine the questions to be answered, then do the research - do vehicle counts, dwell time observations, and on/off at each station - before any questions can be answered. What you know by heart from a year ago or five years ago may not apply now.
Why bother? It will cost more to do the vehicle counts or dwell time observations than you will save by changing the service. Besides, my original question has very little to do with dwell times. Dwell time really isn't an issue when you are trying to match passenger boardings or passenger loads to vehicle requirements.
So, I see that I've had no takers to the question, and it's already 3 days since I posted. Humph. Maybe I'll be better off retreating back into my closet.
My reason for asking was that I thought of decreasing service between Riverside and Resevoir and increasing it between Resevoir and Kenmore. I would have made it acceptable to Newton residents by having the cars go express from Resevoir to Kenmore. The net result would have been a faster trip despite the additional waiting time.
According to your figures, the dwell time spent between Resevoir and Kenmore is 725 seconds or 12 minutes. At this point, I'd start questioning the accuracy of your figures, inasmuch as the scheduled running time between these 2 stations is 17 minutes. That's really bad. The entire line is averaging a mere 13.4 mph end-to-end. This really bad for a completely grade separated line.
There is room for giving Newton passengers non-stop service from Resevoir to Kenmore. However, I'd probably violate your prohibition against adding more trains on the Boyleston St Subway. So, the only alternative would be to couple and uncouple extra cars at Resevoir or to run shuttles between Resevoir and Kenmore (turning on the loop).
I must confess that I do not understand why they cannot handle more trains along Boyleston St. There was more service, when I lived in Boston between 1959 and 1966. The service pattern at that time had the Commonwealth and Beacon St lines terminating at Lechmere; Riverside, Huntington Ave and Watertown lines terminating at Park St and the Tremont St line terminating at North Sta. That's a lot more service than they currently run.
I also noticed that they do not turn any cars at Park St. Is there any reason for this? They are currently using Govt Center to turn the Beacon St and Commonwealth Ave lines. The Govt Center station is not as well suited for turning cars as Park St. The reason is that the turning cars would use the inner tracks at Park St. They could unload, turn around and load, without affecting through service to Govt Center. If they wanted to move the major turnaround operation to Govt Center, they should have added more tracks when the station was rebuilt and renamed in the mid 1960's. There isn't a separate track for terminating trains, so the line backs up waiting for trains to unload. I guess this is the Hub's version of the TA's fumigation policy.
There's no doubt that loading times are excessive. I assume that they still have turnstiles at all the subway stations (Science Park excepted). It's not necessarily fare collection. The running speed between Kenmore and Copley is 8.3 mph with only 1 intermediate station. Either operating speeds have been reduced to a crawl or there is really excessive dwell time. If it's dwell time and it's that bad without fare collection, then the likely possibility is that they are not running enough cars. I realize the Breda problems have resulted in a car shortage. However, if it is that bad, getting Breda's online probably won't solve the problem by themselves.
Turnstiles are at all central subway locations (you are right -- Science Park is still pay-as-you-enter, as are Symphony and Prudential on the E/Heath branch).
In my opinion, much of the slowdown in recent years is the MBTA version of "timers," automatic signals that require frequent slowing and stopping. In addition, yellow-over-yellow signals are now displayed at all stations when a trolley is berthed, requiring the following car (or train) to stop-and-proceed before entering. As I recall this was implemented after the rearender at Copley outbound last decade.
But additional capacity in the name of more three-car trains during peak hours would certainly help the loading/unloading caused long dwell times in the central subway.
They used to run 3-car trains on Commonwealth, Beacon St and Riverside; they ran 2-car trains on Arborway and Watertown; they ran singles on Tremont and the short runs to Northeastern; Heath and Oak Square.
These were all PCC'S so a direct comparison is not accurate. According to the spec sheets the 7's are equivalent to 1 1/2 PCC's. So, a two car train should be equivalent to a three car train composed of PCC's.
However, the PCC'S had one person in each car collecting fares. I gather the two-car 7's have only 2 fare collection doors. Thus, one would expect that dwell times with only two fare collectors should be 50% longer. What was the surprise? Didn't they notice that with the Boeings?
Clearly coupling and uncoupling cars could be one solution. However, coupling Beacon St and Riverside cars is not necessarily a good choice. The lines are subject to wide variation in dwell times. Thus, it might not be possible to guarantee their meeting at precisely the right time. That's why I proposed coupling/uncoupling an extra car at Resevoir. A late train from Riverside would not delay a trainload of passengers.
That would have been my solution, except that it simply doesn't seem to be politically palatable. Express between Res and Kenmore might solve some problems, but will create others (essentially, you have perhaps about 15-25 paxs an hour that travel from Newton-Longwood who will bitch like hell, and they do have clout). Given a full O/D matrix, you could calculate this and show that overall that service plan change will be beneficial, but even if you did, I think people will still bitch, and it will be difficult to implement. But this is a much better suggestion than anything I'd been able to come up with thus far.
According to your figures, the dwell time spent between Resevoir and Kenmore is 725 seconds or 12 minutes. At this point, I'd start questioning the accuracy of your figures, inasmuch as the scheduled running time between these 2 stations is 17 minutes.
A few thing to remember about MBTA: (1) scheduled running time is based on the average running time, and not 75th-%tile or 85th-%tile; (2) that diagram you showed on their site, is the off-peak running time, and if you go to travel planner, you will find a longer running time if you enter a time that starts in the AM rush range, e.g. 08.05 ex-RIVER; (3) MBTA doesn't really give its cars enough running time; (4) You calculated the times using my formula, which assumed coin payment, but in reality there are passes, which are faster, and there's Show-n-Go, which allows all-door-boarding at three stops during the AM rush, further speeding cars up.
That's really bad. The entire line is averaging a mere 13.4 mph end-to-end. This really bad for a completely grade separated line.
It is really bad. Which is why I am thinking about getting something done about it.
run shuttles between Resevoir and Kenmore (turning on the loop).
This would help if enough journey extended between those two points. Unfortunately, I believe most people travel from somewhere in Newton or somewheres in Brookline to somewheres between Kenmore and Park St. The sizable minority that get off at Longwood and in Brookline for the High School is big enough to have political clout, but small enough not to justify their own service group (i.e. Riverside to Kenmore and back).
I must confess that I do not understand why they cannot handle more trains along Boyleston St. There was more service, when I lived in Boston between 1959 and 1966. The service pattern at that time had the Commonwealth and Beacon St lines terminating at Lechmere; Riverside, Huntington Ave and Watertown lines terminating at Park St and the Tremont St line terminating at North Sta. That's a lot more service than they currently run.
Whats the rush hour headway when you lived here? Current headways are: 5 mins on D, 6.5 mins on C, 5 mins on B, and 7 mins on E. That's 40 trains per hour or 90 second headway. Pretty close to the theoretical maximum. Also, don't forget dwell times. The newer cars are larger capacity, and some filled to the brim during the rush due to bunching. Bunching decreases capacity because the dwell time increases nonlinearly beyond about 120 passengers even if you have all-doors-boarding in the subway.
I also noticed that they do not turn any cars at Park St. Is there any reason for this?
They did a study back in the 90's that basically said: we need more capacity at Lechmere, so which trains can we get to go to Lechmere to fill the demand? The answer: D and E branch. They didn't have enough cars to take B,C or B,D to Lechmere, and having the old arrangement C,E to Lechmere gave them less capacity Lechmere-Park, so they changed it to D,E.
Either operating speeds have been reduced to a crawl or there is really excessive dwell time.
Don't look at that MBTA chart. There is padding and fudging in the schedule, basically the trains are chronically late at Kenmore and gains time between there and Park. There is a legit reason for this, because the Copley Jct is operated first-come-first-serve and thus there could potentially be very ugly delays there if three trains arrive on the junction all at once. The running time is based on the worse case scenario. But it's still wrong. And even if it's right, it will still not help scheduling, because the dwell times on the above-ground portion screws up any resemblance of timekeeping by the time the trains hit Kenmore. The only solution seem to be to pad out journey times and hold trains that arrive early at Kenmore, further lengthening already-too-long journey times.
I realize the Breda problems have resulted in a car shortage. However, if it is that bad, getting Breda's online probably won't solve the problem by themselves.
Bredas make it worse, and if you'd tried to get on a Breda through the front door while it's crowded, you'll know why.
AEM7
I would say that service was at least as good on all lines as it is now. I would try to look at the MBTA and its predecessor MTA archives to make sure. Watertown cars also ran frequently. The Lenox cars ran less frequently, maybe an 8 or 10 minute headway.
That's 40 trains per hour or 90 second headway. Pretty close to the theoretical maximum.
No. The 40 tph limit is based on only 1 train in a station at one time. That wasn't the case. At least 2 trains could and did fit in the station. That doesn't exactly double the capacity but I'd think it should be in the 60 tph range. The only tight fits would be northbound at Boyleston and Govt Center.
we need more capacity at Lechmere,
That does not explain why they are turning trains at Govt Center rather than Park St. Park St permits separating terminating and through trains; Govt Center doesn't.* You should be able to get 3 trains on each track in the station at one time.
*Govt Center was designed to turn trains from the Charlestown lines with a loop and separate track. But they are facing the wrong direction. I gather there isn't much interest in retoring the Bunker Hill line. :-)
the Copley Jct is operated first-come-first-serve and thus there could potentially be very ugly delays there if three trains arrive on the junction all at once
That hasn't changed since they built the Huntington Ave subway back in the 1930's. You've also got a similar junction for the Beacon and Riverside lines. N.B. such junctions should not reduce capacity in theory. If it is really a time waster, then a simple schedule change should eliminate the problem.
At least two trains of two-car PCC's could and did fit in the station. With the MBTA standard operating practice now, you could fit one train of three-car Type 7's or one train of two-car Type 7's plus a single berthed behind it. The only station where you can get two trains of two-car Type 7's to fit is in Park St on the Northbound through and Westbound both platforms. There are some stations where with a tight fit you could squeeze in two trains of two-car Type 7's, but it can't be done safely and routinely, and it's not possible at all stations (for example, Arlington has a short platform).
That does not explain why they are turning trains at Govt Center rather than Park St. Park St permits separating terminating and through trains; Govt Center doesn't.
As Todd explained, they do this on an ad-hoc basis, with the decision maker stationed at the booth in Boyleston. But either way, it doesn't ease the capacity crunch, since you can terminate whatever you want in Park, the bottleneck is in not being able to double-berth in places like Arlington, as I already explained.
N.B. such junctions should not reduce capacity in theory.
In theory. In theory all trains run on time and you can always line up two opposing moves. In reality, you get frequent blocking of the main line because E trains want to turn, and after they have turned it takes a while for the plant to reset.
I'm pretty sure they used to handle two 3-car trains of PCC's at all stations. The trains did get pretty close to one another but they fit.
the MBTA standard operating practice now...
I think you have the makings of a standard optimization problem. What's the less expensive strategy of providing 50% more cars/hr: making the existing trains longer by adding another car and driver or lengthening all platforms so that two trains can berth?
they do this on an ad-hoc basis, with the decision maker stationed at the booth in Boyleston.
An ad-hoc decision is generally taken when things get really bad. That's too late for delay-free operation. That decision should be made from the vantage point of Govt Center, where the backup source is and before any delays percolate back to Boyleston, where the switch is located.
Is there really justification for running all trains to Govt Center? Enough blunders were made when the station was rebuilt in the early 1960's. They don't need to use the new reversing loop to justify its cost. They blew a lot more money in the changes that were not made at that time.
In theory all trains run on time and you can always line up two opposing moves.
Bottom line is that one wants to control the crossing move (from the Boyleston St subway to the Huntington Av subway) fairly tightly. This can be better accomplished if the Huntington Ave line started from the inner track at Park St than if it ran all the way from Lechmere. Extending the Huntington Ave cars to Lechmere may have been the wrong choice - Beacon St or Commonwealth might have been better.
you get frequent blocking of the main line
There used to be occasional not frequent blocking.
The answer is neither. It is much less expensive to allow overcrowding to occur on the lines, at least until such time when capital or operating money (read: subsidy) is available to do otherwise. Forward funding means things like bottleneck relief takes least priority, trumped by things like: Big-Dig mitigation commuter rail extensions.
An ad-hoc decision is generally taken when things get really bad.
Ad-hoc decisions are necessary for the smooth running of the system. I can point to at least five thesii that examines this question and concluded that service adjustments is necessary evil, and if done well, can mitigate delays.
That decision should be made from the vantage point of Govt Center, where the backup source is and before any delays percolate back to Boylston, where the switch is located.
The reason for short-turning at Park is not due to delays at Government Centre. Short-turning at Park is done when trains enter tunnel in a sequence that is out-of-order. For example, if between Kenmore and Park you have trains in the following order: B,C,D,B,B,C,B,D*,D,B,C -- then clearly the "D*" is the candidate of a short-turn. Train sequence after short turn would probably be: B,C,D,B,D*,B,C,B,D,B,C, much more acceptable than before. Although the decision maker sits at Boylston, it does not mean he/she is making decisions from that vantage point. That's what radios are for.
Bottom line is that one wants to control the crossing move (from the Boylston St subway to the Huntington Av subway) fairly tightly.
It can't actually be done. There is no pocket track or siding facility at Copley Jct., so once a train leaves Park St. in a certain order, it must access the branch in that order. So even if you departed E trains perfectly on time from Park, you will stick block the crossing in front of B,C,D trains because holding an E-train at Copley will delay other trains behind it. Essentially, you can't hold on the main line, so E trains basically have to cross the Northbound track whenever it gets to the junction, and since you can't control when Westbound trains will arrive at Copley Jct (the have street-running before they get there), there will always be blocking at Copley Jct (by the Westbound, of the Northbound). You can mitigate its effects, but you can't eliminate the delays.
Extending the Huntington Ave cars to Lechmere may have been the wrong choice - Beacon St or Commonwealth might have been better.
There's not enough cars to extend Beacon or Commonwealth to Lechmere, as I explained earlier.
The fact that nobody wants to fund any improvement for the Boyleston St lines does not make it a bad optimization problem - only one that will never be applied :-)
I can point to at least five thesii that examines this question and concluded that service adjustments is necessary evil, and if done well, can mitigate delays.
The question is what does mean by "ad-hoc". For example, I'm a believer in holding NYCT to a tight schedule (to the second) by installing clocks in every station. This might be construed as "ad-hoc" because it deviates from letting the trains pursue a journey without any supervision.
I'm a believer in designing a realistic schedule, that does not create delays and sticking to it. I'm sure I can point to an equal number of process control papers that would support this approach. OTOH, if one starts with an unrealistic schedule, then a smart, well placed operations supervisor can save the schedule maker's ass. However, the problem should lay with the schedule maker.
It can't actually be done. There is no pocket track or siding facility at Copley Jct....There's not enough cars to extend Beacon or Commonwealth to Lechmere...
You may have misunderstood my point. Let's assume that all trains leave the terminal on time and that accumulated deviations from schedule are due to differences in loading times. Suppose all Huntington trains started from Park St. They would have only 3 stops until the junction, whereas they currently have 8 stops. I'd therefore confidently expect that trains turning onto Huntington would be fairly close to schedule, compared to what currently happens.
There is really no difference in the number of trains required. The time between Park St and Lechmere is 13 minutes and at 7 tph that's 2 trains. The time between Govt Center and Lechmere is 11 minutes and at 6 tph (Beacon St) that's 2 trains. Simply take the extra trains that are currently assigned to Huntington Ave (due to the route having been extended from Park to Lechmere) and transfer them to Beacon St.
Of course, you'd need more trains too.
As others have pointed out the issues of adding/subtracting cars at Reservoir or short runs .
A question not answered is where do the Newton group go? It is critical to know whetherr most of only a few meed to have a single seat ride past Park or Govt.
And a cost question. In SF the "second driver" who had NO real duties underground -- barrier fare control, MU operatiom -- has been abolished.
The extremely expensive capacity increase answer is CBTC/moving blocks which "claom" more TPH.
One other tactic might be POP or pay leave outbound boarding to speed dwell.
So
1. add/subtract extra caes ar Reservoir
2. POP/ Pas you leave
3. restructure service patterns tp cut diwn emoty mileage/hours.
Most go downtown, and not past Park. But as I pointed out earlier, the reason to send the trains to Lechmere has to do with Lechmere capacity, and relatively little to do with amount of service that could be provided in from Reservoir. The reason Reservoir is constrained is because of the Central Subway signal capacity, and nothing to do with car count.
And a cost question. In SF the "second driver" who had NO real duties underground -- barrier fare control, MU operatiom -- has been abolished.
The reason to have a second car operator is safety and to reduce draggers. Whether this is just Union-speak or if there genuinely is a reason to have a trailerman is something that could be debated, but as it stands, the trailerman does have important operational duties: (1) announce stops (2) collect fares on the overground portion and (3) in case of a breakdown, short turn etc: summon help, operate points, and perhaps operate the car if the car needed to be run as two singles.
One other tactic might be POP or pay leave outbound boarding to speed dwell.
The pay as you leave thing might work, but it doesn't resolve the problem that there is still too many people trying to travel on too few cars. Essentially, it seems that the reason the two cars have to be dragged empty out to Riverside is because it is needed to cope with peak demands (between Reservoir and Kenmore) and the trip pattern overlap in such a way that adding service solely between Res and Kenmore wouldn't allieviate any of the capacity shortage. What COULD help (i.e. attach cars at Reservoir or run extra trains Reservoir-Park by cutting the Newton cars) isn't particularly technically or politically feasible.
AEM7
coupling issues. SF used to do this all the time with the Boeings. As the Boeings were phased out concurrently with the much delayed ATCS/CBTC implementation, coupling/uncoupling was discontinued. All that not withstanding, I believe that adding/subtracting caes @ Reservoir should be umplemented (I also support similar stratehies for maximizing cat utilization AND better service in SF.)
Instituting POP/barrier fare control canspeed boarding. If the MBTA Btedas ever become functional, they have more doors than the Boeings and Kinkis. As a short term tactic, promoting Pass usage combined with a limited POP implementatiom might slightly ease the crunch.
I have explicitly ignored the congestion/rush hour surcharge ripoff as I consider that immoral given the requirement for most riders to be at work on a schedule.
If ATCS/CBTC ever proves itself, the promise is greater throughput. You might be middle aged.
(2) I have explicitly ignored the congestion/rush hour surcharge ripoff as I consider that immoral given the requirement for most riders to be at work on a schedule.
You're a classic Republician. Do you see what you are advocating here? You are saying with (1) that you can rip the transit labor off by making everything OPTO, and with (2) so that the fares can be low for you, the person who has to get to work at a fixed time, and the taxpayer can subsidize you by buying more cars just to carry the peak demand.
I once discussed this with some blue collar guys. I believe what they want is a surcharge that allowed transit systems to raise more money but would not hurt the low-income. Since low-income workers tend to work first shift (7am-3pm) or variable shifts (e.g. 2pm-closing time), rush-hour surcharge in fact will not hurt them. The rush-hour surcharge will mainly affect white collar office workers (9am-5pm) who ride transit. Now, I'm one such person, but frankly I think I can afford the more expensive fares if it means there's more money for transit, and I'll go to bed knowing that I'm not screwing the minimum-wage or the blue collar workers.
You, on the other hand, fight it because YOU don't want to pay the rush hour surcharge, and would rather the taxpayers paid for your morning commute.
AEM7
"Blue collar" and "white collar" are not always significant terms when you're discussing incomes. Consider a master electrician at a construction company vs. an editorial assistant at a publisher. The blue collar electrician probably makes 3x as much as the white collar editorial assistant.
I think this is a value-judgment on my part. I believe the reason journeymen electricians (or whatever craft) gets paid the amount they do is because of their seniority and of course Union bargaining. Editorial assistants are entry level jobs, and if you compare their pay level with the appropriate "rank" in construction workers (e.g. an apprentice electrician, or a recent graduate), then you will find that the pay levels are really not that far off, given educational background, etc. I am well aware that there are people who make a career out of being editorial assistants, but then perhaps they deserve the low wages; the more competent or better connected ones get promoted to become writers, section editors and editors. If the office is an Union office, then there will probably also be a seniority-based pay agreement.
The problem arises with non-progressing white-collar jobs like bank clerks, government paper-pushers, computer programmers, personal assistants. These people ought to either unionize or push for flexi-time on an individual basis. It's not that hard. Many of the private sector firms now have flexi-time even for administrative and information-processing workers. And besides, there ought to be something encouraging the younger generation to take up "real" engineering jobs, versus paper-pushing white-collar jobs.
AEM7
SubwayMan: Here is a greatly simplified snapshot of 3 Avenue El service in 1938.
3 Avenue Local ran between 129 Street and South Ferry M-Sat 6am-12mid
between East 241 St and City Hall at all hours except when the lcl-exp and thru-exp where operating.
between Bronx Park and City Hall M-Sat additional trains
between Bronx Park and South Ferry on Sundays 6am-12mid.
3 Avenue Lcl-Exp ran between East 241 Street and City Hall from about 6am-12 noon southbound and 12 noon - 1130pm northbound, Mon-Sat except for a two hour period during which the thru-exp was operating.
Lcl-Exp also ran between Bronx Park and City Hall during the same times as the above.
The lcl-exp ran local in The Bronx and express in Manhattan.
3 Avenue Thru-Express ran between East 241 Street and City Hall Mon-Sat Lv E241 ST from 649am-820am and leaving City Hall from 455pm to 622pm.
The thru-exp ran express in The Bronx s/o Tremont Av and exp in Manhattan and used the upper level s/o 149 Street in the direction of traffic but returned (light) via the lower level.
A Canal St-South Ferry Shuttle ran during midnight hours.
A Webster Avenue Shuttle ran between East 241 Street and Fordham Rd during rush hours leaving East 241 St 550pm-730pm and leaving Fordham Rd 635am-750am.
This is from a history of 3 Avenue el services by Bernard Linder.
Larry, RedbirdR33
A sincere inquiring mind would like to know...
Best wishes to all,
AT Dash
It was from the Bulletin of the New York Divsion of the ERA, the October 1963 issue and is covered all the el services as thre where running in 1938 before the 6 Avenue El was abandoned.
Larry, RedbirdR33
http://www.archive.org/movies/details-db.php?id=1079
s/o is my shorthand for south of. 149 Street had only one level but any train on the express track automatically went to the upper level. Local trains could access the upper level via a second ramp s/o 143 Street Station. All trains coming from the Bergen Avenue Cutoff had to take the upper level.
Larry, RedbirdR33
-Chris
http://subway.com.ru/maps.htm
Each of the photos is a link to it's gallery. There you can find the rest of the pics.
Bonus
So many car types in this pic, I couldn't find a home for it on my site:
Koi
My wife, who used to live in New York, told me she thought that the number of trains fanning out from NYC, i.e., the Hudson Line, the Jersey trains, those to New Haven, etc, would add up to a sizable number.
My belief is that the person had to be counting all of those plus subway trains.
Can someone please enlighten us?
Thanks,
BigBlue
Subway trains couldn't be included, since they never leave the city limits. Counting Amtrak, NJT, MNRR, and LIRR at all terminals within the city, I'd say the 1000 number sounds reasonable.
-- David
Brooklyn, NY
If you count PATH, that could easily bring it over 1000.
I was waiting at Lexington Avenue - 51 Street for a (6) train to take me to Parkchester in the Bronx. An R-142 on the uptown (4) came into the station first, and I was surprised that the outside signs were correctly saying:
(4) LEXINGTON AV LOCAL
(4) TO WOODLAWN
The announcement played as follows, starting with the typical (4) voice, and then switching to Jessica Ettinger.
"This is a Bronx-bound (4) train. The next. Stop is 59 Street."
It left, and shortly after a (6) pulled in, with its usual correct signs:
(6) LEXINGTON AV LOCAL
(6) TO PELHAM BAY PARK
And its usual announcement of:
"This is a Bronx-bound (6) train. The next. Stop is 59 Street."
Once the (6) gets into the Bronx, the "mean" voice announces:
"THIS is a Pelham Bay Park-bound. (6) local train."
But on the weekend, for some reason Jessica Ettinger says that message instead. And she says it slower. *shrugs*
The strip maps on the (6) were correctly showing that the (6) was indeed running express from Parkchester - E 177 Street to Pelham Bay Park. When we got to Parkchester, Ettinger correctly, and melodically announced:
"This is a Pelham Bay Park bound (6) local train. The next. And last stop is Pelham Bay Park."
I left the Parkchester station, and walked out to Hugh Grant Circle. As I was walking around the circle, I looked up at the tracks, and I saw another PBP-bound (6) approaching Parkchester, but THIS train had a totally different display on its outside signs! This train was displaying:
(6) BRONX LOCAL
(6) TO PELHAM BAY PARK
I've never seen THAT before.
"This is a Manhattan bound 4 train, the next stop is Van Siclen avenue."
The C/R was loading up the night 4 program to use for the GO, and the computer glitched.
I do appreciate it when C/R are in a rush, but do NOT cut off announcements, since it doesn't force me into going in endless loops trying to get a decent recording.
I also can't see why the TA has 4 trains prepared to go to brooklyn bridge as locals (and even have the anouncements say "brooklyn bridge bound 4 train" at canal), but doesn't see fit to do the same with the 5 train.
Sample of today's festivities
Which makes it suspect and subjects you to many guarded and false responses . . .
No TRAIN-ing required, there.
Robert
Robert
Have A Safe One
Robert
Yeah? What part of the line sees 55MPH?
I guess that explains why Fred is always complaining.
I guess you'd be the one my father was always talking about as an extra T/O would change the marker lights on your train to confuse DeKalb so that they would send you down the Brighton instead of 4th Ave to the Sea Beach.
But S/B? Nope, that was somebody else. I *belonged* on the Brighton and had no interest in going the "long way" home. :)
We perfer to be known as "podiatric Leather Restoration Technicians"
One of them might be UNDERDOG ;-)
subfan
Joined ERA from introduction by Phil Hom and Gil Zilberstein at the Brooklyn Tech HS Railroad club in 1970, leading to membership in MESTA (Former North American Trackless Trolley Association, now the Urban Transit Club).
Now member of North Jersey Electric Transit Historical Society.
Looking for Osama is my priority.
PING!!!!
Also, just curious. How does one go about getting a job with the NYC Transit Authority?
This isn't ancient Rome, nobody counts inclusively.
Don't you mean exclusively? By the way, The Catholic Church still counts inclusively. The feast of the Ascension is described as being 40 days after Easter, but it's on a Thursday, so that can't possibly be. It's really 39.
But you have to count exclusively, where you count neither the first nor the last day, to get 911 days from 9/11/01 to 3/11/04.
As an aside, this facility underscores the importance of not having buildings named after famous living people... they may live long enough to see the building "un-named" after them...
The C/R said over the PA that there was a police investigation at Pelham bay, and 6 trains were terminating at westchester square, and going into the yard. She and the T/O said this twice at both Parkchester and Hunts point where we were held for about 5 minutes each.
I had my parents pick me up, since I had no intention of walking home at pretty close to midnight.
http://www.nypost.com/seven/03142004/news/regionalnews/20749.htm
SUBWAY BOMB SCARE
March 14, 2004 -- A deranged man who though he was a "time cop" gave the police some bomb-scare practice last night, police sources said.
The man left a duffel bag in the Pelham Bay Parkway No. 6 Train station in the Bronx at about 11 p.m., police said. The sack was mistaken for an explosive, forcing the bomb squad out.
After the investigation - which closed the station for a while - the bag was found to be filled with cell phones and electrical equipment.
"The guy told us 'It's not a bomb. I made it so I could travel through time. I'm a time cop,' " a police source told the Post.
The man was taken to Jacobi Hospital for observation.
Glad you are back on the board!
I'm not sure, but no doubt that many members that chose works by Handel chose The Messiah.
The V provides access from Queens Blvd local passengers to 53rd Street and 6th Avenue. The G is utterly worthless to Queens Blvd passengers.
Not true, Everyone in Queens is not going to Manhattan. You should see the amount of people who get off the E train at 23-Ely to catch the G.
Robert
...Which is still NOT Manhattan.
Not nearly as many as stay on the E.
Far fewer than those who ride the V into Manhattan. Most people want a Manhattan destination, that's why every line except the G does this. The justification for the G line's existence was based on faulty, outmoded ridership patterns in the 1920's. If it were elevated, it would have never survived the 1970's.
Majority rules.
Ideally the across the platform transfer at Queens Plaza as terminus was the best scenario, but now this is impossible.
Extending V to 179 would do what, create a local to complement it, look at how the R failed back then.
Sarcasm aside, you cannot add any more service to the Queens Blvd. express without cutting headways on the 2 existing routes unacceptably.
TRAIN SHOW
Montvale NJ
St Joseph's High School
Mar-14-2004 (that's today) from 9a to 3pm
TRAIN SHOW
Greenwich CT
Greenwich Civic Center
Mar-21-2004 (that's next Sunday) brahs!
Shameless plug, Author is not the T/O of these events.
Here's my comments from another posts I made:
Oh, by the way! I was on the "B" Wednesday and when we got on the Bridge, We were right beside the "Q".. It was wonderful! and such a beautiful experience to be along side the "Q" train going across the bridge at a rapid rate. But unfortunately, a train must of been in front of the "Q" because it slowed down. Well.. later I found out, it was an "N" Broadway Express.. Of course it was no match for the "B" but it was going pretty rapidly when we got to the Dekalb Station.
I was so amazed, I said ... WOW! Everyone looked at me, and I was embarassed, but that must have been one of my best transit experience.
I was wondering.. HOW THE HELL DID WE GET ON OTHERSIDE WITHOUT CROSSING INFRONT OF THE "N" which on the other side of that bridge? I WAS SO SHOCK! That must have taken them forever to build!
Maybe there's 4 or 5 levels.. and we must have dropped down a single level to North Bound "SOUTH Bridge traffic to go through. I need help.. I'm really interested in knowing how this DEKALB connection is configured. I know about the West fourth street interconnection.. but this one really cause me to almost jump out of my skin.
In short, I have to say, the transportation authority really put that together.. It is so weird that I can't stop talking about it. Maybe I should have wrote this in another thread, but I just had to get this off my chest.
Thanks guys and sorry to hear our subtalker has been harrassed.
W Broadway Local
PS: Coming back home I got me an "N" Broadway Line.. (NOT LINE - EXPRESS hehehhehe!) IT WAS THE BOMB! I especially love how the "N" Broadway Express Took that curve after Canal Street.. When did you ever witness an N train taking a curve like that on the local tracks? Now I can see why Fred doesn't like the route heading towards lower manhattan. It just pittiful how slow it negoiates those curves. By the way, I never really rode the "N" in the 80's.
Maybe there's 4 or 5 levels..
It's all possible with 2 levels. See http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/track/bigbklynhts.gif
for details.
It's difficult to guess which are the most crowded as I don't often ride during the AM rush. I would say the B is least crowded in my observation; but it's been so long since Brighton riders had a choice of service that it may just take some getting used to. None of the trains are as packed now as a rush-hour Q used to be. People do seem (like me) to follow the intended service flow pattern, by taking whichever train is most convenient to Pacific or DeKalb and waiting there for the train they need.
I am very fond of the M train--it's so quixotic. I was sorry to see it go weekdays (less out of sentiment, though, than irritation at losing frequency at my station). The M does a reasonable amount of business along 4th Ave. during the rush; I'm pretty sure that is the busiest segment of its route south of Essex, although PM rush it does enter DeKalb with standees, at least.
Robert
Robert
I think that for the general public that date is set in stone. That's the weekened before Memorial Day, the unofficial start of summer, and the start of the Coney Island beach season. I'm sure promises were made about getting open by that date, and I'm surprised the pick isn't earlier. Looks like they are cutting it close, so let's hope they finish on time.
I know the N train won't be going there until the following summer. How finished will the station by this May?
Sea Beach will remain at 86 Street while the existing West End side is demolished and reconstructed. Last I heard the whole thing could be opened late this year or sometime in early 2005. When complete, West End will go back to where it was and Sea Beach will finally go back to where IT was.
I was very impressed by the progress at Stillwell terminal betwen my last visit in December 2002, when it was a big hole in the ground, and what I saw in February 2004. It is also interesting to note the more expansive "footprint" of the new station as compared to the original terminal. You can see the difference by noting the comparative elevations of the new transfer stairway and what's left of the old one on the West End platform. When the remnants are gone and the new terminal finished, it will be tough to tell that there is absolutely nothing left of the original (except the old tower).
MTA definitely was not shy about their choice of style, and the new Coney Island terminal shed honors its long and glorious history, as well as establishes the terminal as a center of community focus for the beaches, attractions and surrounding area. I only hope there will be someplace in the new retail lobby to get a grilled hot dog and good Potato K'nish again when all is said and done. Maybe they'll replace the rest rooms, too. They come in handy during those long days of railfanning. :->
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Did you see, or more to the point smell, what was there before?
In any event, the issue is how it will look 20 years from now. Some buildings that look awful to start with age well as they are gotten used ot and lived in. Others become wrecks before their time.
Yes, which should demonstrate just how ugly this new terminal is.
I was very impressed by the progress at Stillwell terminal betwen my last visit in December 2002, when it was a big hole in the ground, and what I saw in February 2004. It is also interesting to note the more expansive "footprint" of the new station as compared to the original terminal. You can see the difference by noting the comparative elevations of the new transfer stairway and what's left of the old one on the West End platform. When the remnants are gone and the new terminal finished, it will be tough to tell that there is absolutely nothing left of the original (except the old tower).
MTA definitely was not shy about their choice of style, and the new Coney Island terminal shed honors its long and glorious history, as well as establishes the terminal as a center of community focus for the beaches, attractions and surrounding area. I only hope there will be someplace in the new retail lobby to get a grilled hot dog and good Potato K'nish again when all is said and done. Maybe they'll replace the rest rooms, too. They come in handy during those long days of railfanning. :->
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
AMEN.
---Sir Ronald of McDonald
...And I had to find this out the day after I went to press with the "still to be determined" opening date for Stillwell. Sigh.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.6 Now Available!
Robert
Chuck :-)
How and/or who determines what car fleet is assigned on a specific line? True you can't put a fleet of IRT R-62's on an IND or BMT line. But for example between R-46's and R-68's? Cars that can run on either IND or BMT lines.
Thanks...
David
David
Does anyone know which fleet had orange color doors on the interior in the early 80's?
til next time
REDUNDANT!
(Maybe, I don't use the 8th Av/CPW line, so I'm not qualified to give a definitive answer.)
Thanks for your help.
Vince
The KK was a routing from 57/6 via the 6th Av Lcl, over the Williamsburg Bridge and along the Broadway El. It usually terminated at 168th St Jamaica, running skip-stop with the QJ, although some runs only made it to Eastern Parkway. After about 1970, it became the K train which only ever ran to Eastern Parkway. It was cut some time in the mid 70s.
Regards,
Jimmy
I think not or it could not happen.
Is 8079 a QV bus, or from somewhere else?
Why the H?
Chuck Greene
Course I'm still wondering if the term boondoggle applys if you create a sharp increase in tax rolls at some point.
Chuck Greene
Dan Lawrence will be happy to know that Baltimore is not alone in having a poorly executed light rail line.
On these trains, when they approach a siding, do they automatically switch to the left or right tracks if a train is coming or not? This is what happens on the TECO system. All trolleys stay to the left. It's all supposed to be timed too when and where each trolley meets. It does suck actually, but the operators have gotten way better in their timing meets. There isn't really any waits anymore like there used to be on weekdays.
Could this happen here? Or was there enough practice already to perfect where all the trains meet up?
Also, if they find out there's a huge split in the direction people travel during rush hour, can they run trains one way every 15 min and the other way every 30 or so still?
Example:
A LOT of people travel from PATCO to Burlington South. Can't they line a bunch of trains up on the southernmost end and run them every 15 minutes with the southbound side going every 30? As long as you keep even numbers, connections will never screw up, 15min 30min 60 min.
Least that's what riding PSTA buses taught me. All buses always meet up at certain spots, and they run 15, 30, and 60 minutes, works great.
And TECO's connections work just fine when they run 15 and 30min frequencies.
Normal operation on double track or passing sidings is right-railing. However, the southbound VIP inaugural train and the less-important officials' train on Saturday both wrong-railed from Pennsauken Creek south to the next single track merger. A (possibly) protect train came up (northbound) on the southbound track.
This is one of Dan's big irritations. On trolley lines they use spring switches, on many light rail lines they use all interlockings even when such interlockings only ever emulate the operation of spring switches. Dan once timed the changeover and it took 100 seconds for the switches to throw and the signals to clear. With a spring switch system with no interlocking appliances the changeover is instantanious.
Awaited for the usual muckity-mucks to arrive. Should have let the non-affiliated, devoted rail promoters ride on ribbon-cutting day, as they did at Baltimore and the Hudson-Bergen inaugurations...that would have been a nice think to do, especially since we all made special trips to see the inauguration ceremony. Eventually, the politicos came, spoke. I want to especially thank NJ Transit for the fine victuals. Great eats. A few bottles of Moxie would have been nice, though.
(I was a bit perturbed that they had a Chistening of the train with a bottle of champaign. If I was at Trenton for the Ribbon-cutting ceremony, I would have offered to cut an inch off the coupler for fair play! A shonda!). Took PATCO back to Phily.
Then, of course, on Sunday, I got up at 4:40 am to get to Trenton to ride the first 6:15 interurban to Camden. Moderate crowd (FREE PARKING SUNDAY ONLY!)
My best part of it was the mid-street running through Burlington. Almost an identical feeling of being in Michigan City on the CSS&SB.
These DLRVs are even nicer (except on the curves) than the Ottawa O-Train, makes better speed and can easily take the 4%+ grade from Trenton Station.
If only it had overhead wires, traction orange paint and worm gears with the proper noise (too quiet for a railfan).
I wish it the best. We are back in the Interurban Era (Camden City to Trenton City). Mr. Middleton needs an updated book.
Chuck Greene
I was there on Monday, on a day trip from Washington (just got back home in South Carolina on the Cresecent). Ridership was still heavy, with standing-room only conditions on some of the trains that I rode. Most riders looked like sightseers to me (some people with cameras, retired people, kids). When I arrived back in Camden around 5:30 to head back to Philly to catch my train, I did see a bunch of suits waiting at Walter Rand, so at least some commuters were checking out the line already.
The hang-em-up bike rack next to the car door is a nice touch. I even got to see one guy use it.
Best thing about it, the trains ran on-time despite the slop.
When I am sick and tired and just want to get home, the 60 minute trip time and PATCO connection might not go over too well. However the ride is very smooth and facing hi-back padded seats look pretty good for sleeping.
Chuck Greene
Later,
Chuck Greene
I think there's nothing wrong with the service at all. What's wrong with waiting for a half an hour for a train? I used to wait that much and more for a bus! This lightrail will revitalize those communities in short while.
Exactly.... In about 25 years, all that empty land will be filled with new properties and business forcing NJ Transit to double track that line.
One thing I noticed: nobody seemed to want to stand on the "upper" end parts of the car; everyone packed into the "lower" part where the doors are. I would love to know how many people rode this first day. I see it as a great sign for this line, people seemed interested in it. I did over-hear some negative talk, but afterwards went to eat a late lunch, and in talking with my friend about the trip, the waitress who overheard us talking asked me all about it; she was genuinely interested in it.....I do see good things for this line.
This is Great news. My biggest concern for this rail line was the fear the cars would be empty. Turns out not to be true at all. I can't wait for Saturday to come around. My folding bike will be with me when I take a trip to see this lightrail.
Bill "Newkirk"
Chuck Greene
I'm going next week to check out this new lightrail. This line has so much promose but the radio is already badmouthing the system saying each passenger is costing the taxpayer $30.00 dollars per ride. HOW MUCH IS OUR PARKWAY COSTINGS US????
From what I understand development and new business are already appearing along the line. Does anyone see passengers bring bicycles on board?
*From what I understand development and new business are already appearing along the line.*
That lotto needs to pay off some day before I miss out on good real estate oppurtunity.
I'm going there next week to see if there are any open lots or good properties around that lightrail. In Bayonne, property values within two blocks of the HBLR have increased by 20 percent in the past three years! I can just imagine how much those luxury town homes around Pavonia will be selling 15 years from now.
I predict the lightrail will make many millionaires in the very near future of those holding onto properties and starting business along the line. Count on it.
Crap I must be jaded. I've been reading about too many random area's with huge %age increases, and big nasty developers harrassing people to sell out daily for big $$$. Of course those include millionaire area's, highway offramps at ranches, and beach houses. Hardly a comparasion.
I still get the feeling the riverline, which covers a huge distance compared to HBLR is sitting on some catalyst. I don't know what it will take, but if someone can come up with a good idea, kaboom!
I still think those giant RCA complexes would've made great lofts today.
Mark
But i'm going to have to do a search on the one you mentioned, wasn't aware of that.
The Victor Talking Machine Company building (Nipper Building) has caused a buzz in downtown Camden. People were flabbergasted that upscale loft apartments would be sold quickly. Some even hope it will continue and mark the beginning of a new life for Camden.
The building has an upscale restaurant in it now.
Nipper Building tower
Plus, any building with a stained glass window of a dog listening to a record player is okay in my book!
Mark
But it is a start.
Mark
Let's say riverline wasn't built, and they didn't build those 2 or 3 things so far in camden. How much did the residents of Jersey pay to run the city, especially after state takeover? And especially with zero tax revenues?
And that's NOT a boondoggle?????
Chuck Greene
This figure was given by the mayor of Bayonne in the local paper. He used this figure in approximating property taxe increase! ;-(
It's amazing how this guy wins election year after year but the town keeps voting him in. Some of it can be due to the fact that low interest rates have seen home prices shoot through the roof but everyone knows the LightRail had a big part in some home prices increase the way they did.
The average home price in Bayonne five years ago was 170K. Today it's close to 260K and you won't find anything lower than 230K. Homes around the lightrail are going for 325K and up.
Okay, this is what it is:
I have 11 photos from Saturday that I want to upload on my SubwaySpot.com album. Right now, there are 11 others in my album. I can't upload them. Has my album reached its 20MB quota yet? TIA.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Oh gee, why did you blow our cover???
Has my album reached its 20MB quota yet?
No. Don't worry about that.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
From mail:
My best advice is to create a new album, it seems the old one became corrupt. After you create the new one, I’ll be happy to move the old photos to the new one if you like. I tried this solution with another person, and it worked.
I apologize for the technical difficulties.
Try it, it should work.
BTW, I wonder how things went this weekend for the beleaguered Queens straphangers - with no service through the #7 (Steinway) tunnel and no normal Astoria service. Anyone take a ride and see what was going on?
To add to the confusion, there were THREE shittle buses available at 36th Street, with signs for them all pointing in different directions!!!
Look out for a post with a picture of the R40S W at Union Turnpike
Regards,
Jimmy
wayne
David
When looking on the FAQ glossary section I found a couple of questions. The "End Door Light" is only used on the 75' subway cars. Is there a reason why only on the 75' cars?
Also, a question about the interior "Fault Light." It says that the light is red. If I recall some cars have door lights that are amber. In the old days I remember blue door lights. Is this the same light that tells you simply that the doors are open?
Back in the good old days the interior guard lights were blue. Mow they are red. While the guard light will indicate that the "All Doors Closed" circuit is not made up - meaning a door unlocked, in most cases the fault light will indicate which door panel is causing the problem.
So the guard lights are different than the fault light?
Also I've noticed I think on the R-62's, I'm not sure what its called but I've seen a double red door light on the exterior of the train.
Thanks for the info...
2) Yes, the fault light and guard lights are different but serve somewhat similar functions.
3) Double red or single red - it's just a cosmetic difference and has no operational significance.
Does anyone know through the years, which car fleets had different color fault lights? Besides the current red, I remember amber & blue. Thanks...
Many of these bikes are deteriorating and have been there for some time. No one knows just how long because no one keeps track of the bike racks.
It is suspected that some of these bikes were placed there on the morning of Sept.11th, 2001 by owners who never returned to claim them.
If this is true it is another tragic reminder of the WTC disaster!
The bike rack is a practicial device, necessary for people to ride bikes to the trains, if you got rid of it, people would be discouraged from riding bicycles and instead would fat it up on buses.
DOWN WITH NECROCRACY!
Doubtful with the cars; any belonging to people who died on 9/11 would have been claimed not long after by family members when estates were being settled. Some of the Hoboken bicycles, in contrast, could very well belong to 9/11 dead. Family members easily could have overlooked them.
The El's did not become the major downtown rail transportation until after the bridge opened. As a legal matter, the bridge railroad company was given a 25 exclusive franchise, which would not expire until 1908.
There were also two practical problems. First, the cablecars were handling more volume than the Manhattan El could ever provide. Second, the bridge could not hold more than two locomotives at any one time. Both these really precluded use of the Manhattan El until electrification. The bridge cars were bigger than the Manhattan El cars. They also ran 90 tph peak and averaged 40 tph over a 24 hour period. Inserting Manhattan (or Brooklyn) El cars into the mix, would only have gummed up the works.
There was no real midtown office area until the 1920's and very little incentive to travel uptown from the Bridge. Downtown was the primary destination and the Park Row terminal was within walking distance of most destinations. Brooklyn residents wishing a one seat ride could use trolley cars, starting in 1888.
First of all, Brooklyn paid more for the bridge than NY, so they had more influence. Also, until electricity became common the bridge line was by cable only so it was independent of other railways (engineers felt the steam trains would be too heavy for the bridge, although Washington R. thought otherwise but was not listened to, and at night the little steam trains moved the cars across the bridge anyway).
NY (Manhattan, that is) was (and still is) by far the greater destination than Brooklyn, so the NY els focused on moving passengers north & south and did quite well with that. Most Brooklyn el lines converged at or nearby Sands Street anyway, which was not at all the case for the NY els that had only a branch to City Hall.
Without absolute proof, I think the NY els just weren't interested because they did great without it. For the Brooklyn els, crossing the bridge was essencial. Finally, by the time electrifcation was available (early 20th century), els built through the center of the city (in this case, by City Hall & the new Municipal building site) were out of fashion and subways were seen as the future.
http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/abandoned/chambers.html
Brooklyn Public Library - Brooklyn Eagle Online (1841-1902)
Uh, it really helps to have at least a 56k modem there. And the proprietary display software they use is a little kludgy. Like, you can't remote-link to any of the search results, and the windows are non-standard, without any access to strict file properties information. Still, a good place to get "current" news on "future" bridge construction and the various railways in Brooklyn. It's a real time machine.
Or at least it says so here -->PROOF
:)
At Trenton, I went inside the station and noticed the new "Capital Connection" bus poster, map of downtown Trenton, and one of the buses that had the "Capitol" in the bus sign that denotes the connection service. I got on the next LRT and made the short ride to Cass St to get a quickie snack at the McDonald's next to the station.
After the snack I got on the next departure [9:45 out of Trenton], and noticed as the day wore on, the trains got more crowded. I rode all the way to the Tweeter Center. I realized that everyone was riding all the way down and riding back. I got on and took another short ride to WRTC for another piss break.
Before the next departure, I managed to get some face time on Fox 29 News [Philly area Subtalkers, check me out on the 10 O'clock news, they might use my "Bye, Bye, SEPTA" soundbite. Post your reaction on the board.] and rode all the way to Trenton.
I took a "bus break", and took the 601 bus [baby Nova 2568] to Hamilton Marketplace, AKA "Big Box Hell", got off, took another piss break, and got on the 603 [Flxible Metro-D 1945], and rode back to downtown Trenton.
At State and Warren, I wathched some Sk8trs attempt to break their necks at an office building, and rode another Flx to the station. Got lunch at Roy Rogers, then crammed myself on another RiverLINE, had several conversations with some railfans, especially some from NYC [one Spanish[?] dude had a jacket with a huge picture of a R142 on the back. Does anyone know this guy?], got off at Riverside, then walked around the "downtown" area.
Riverside has a traditional small town downtown area. As I walked around the block, I noticed that within a few years, this downtown can turn out to be one of those "funky" downtowns usually seen in gentrified areas [like Manayunk]. The next departure from Riverside was about 6 minutes late [crowding is the blame], and i rode back to Camden and caught the 403 bus back home.
My final impression is that the RiverLINE will not be the "doggle" some predicted. When I made my initial assesment of the line back in the fall, I predicted that this line will develop interesting travel patterns. But I suspect that this line will have a "If you build it, they will come", effect.
On Tuesday, after my doctor's appointment, I will get a weekday ride on the line, and next Saturday, I will do the RiverLine-NEC run to NYC.
Chuck Greene
While I didn't ride it (I got lazy and took the Q train both ways) I got a lot of good photos at Parkside avenue. I had no idea that station has a fare control area that overlooks the tracks. I will be back there to take overhead photos of B trains.
Note: Cool T/O's displayed J bullets. Wack T/O's displayed Shuttle signs.
New R-42 and R-68a pics on the site as well.
For instance, they can say "by throwing stuff on the tracks, you are increasing the possibility of a subway delay. Also, I feel if the TA were to clean the tracks more, people might think twice before they throw stuff in the tracks.
Fining people is just going to add to the cost of hiring more police.. judges and clerks to processes these fines.
As opposed to the platforms, which are regularly cleaned, and get messed up. (Sometimes just after the cleaner has left, or is still in the vicinity)
Or the cars, which are cleaned in the terminal and are trashed soon after leaving the terminal. (Not all cars are cleaned at the terminal though)
In other words, the cleanliness of a location, whether dirty tracks or clean plats, or clean cars, has little or no effect on the actions of someone who is going to litter.
Then again, I've never seen VacTrak on the Brighton in a while.
Consider how the trash got there, though....slobs living on either side of the right of way just toss their trashout onto the tracks. The TA couldn't cleanit up fast enough, it would be a mess the next day.
The J was extended to cover the gap in 4 service this weekend. Normally this GO is done with the Brown R, but since wasn't an option, they ran the J to Prospect Park. It went south of the station to turn around. Great photos could be had at Parkside avenue.
Technically it was a shuttle, but cool T/O's used J bullets anyway.
The J ran normally JC to Chambers. The shuttle ran from Essex to Prospect.
Technically the shuttle was filling in for the 4, so they provided a shuttle that ran almost as frequently as the 4 does on weekends. The J line itself doesn't do that. Increase the frequency over the entire J line and you have too much service, and you screw around with the M shuttle operation.
It might have been redundant, but I guess the MTA felt people would take the shuttle to continue on the 4 line, and provided the extra service.
The shuttle ran fairly empty all weekend.
I, and most other people used the Q as an alternate to the 4. You can transfer between the two trains at Union Square, Canal (4 was local), and Atlantic.
I don't understand why the extra J's were needed. What's wrong with the D/N/Q for through passengers or the R for local passengers? Extend the (regular) J to Fulton (relaying at Broad) so 4 passengers don't lose the Fulton transfer. If necessary, discharge southbound 4 trains (but not 6 trains) at Canal so nobody gets "trapped" at Brooklyn Bridge.
Note, BTW, that the "brown R" that ran the last two weekends 4 service was disrupted isn't an option anymore. At the time, the Montague tunnel was served by the N, Q, and R, so the R could be diverted via Nassau. Now, with the R alone through the tunnel, it couldn't be diverted unless either the N or Q filled in, and that would cause confusion.
Most people I overheard were using the Q and the 2(???) instead of the J. The J shuttle was emptier than the V during the G/R/V test.
wayne
Does this look like Essex to you?
Someone had posted on the Straps about it.
Seeing as it was a trick question, you can't blame me for my guess.
I was going to yell at him, but then I realized I wasn't on a MOD trip.
I wouldn't know, but he does have a camera in his hand.
Sometimes having people in your pics is cool... This kid was a real sport, so I didn't crop him out:
In my opinion, he made the pic:
D.
LOL, you're still too scared to ask them. Get over it.
B!TCHIN photos! What's cooler than cool? John Villanueva cold!
But the real purpose of this post is to announce that more photos will be forthcoming tomorrow, and that one or two J's went to Whitehall because of either switch problems at Broad or power out at Canal, depending on the announcement.
After the J to Whitehall, I took an R to Rector and walked across to Broad, arriving just in time for service to resume.
When I was there supervision was instruction T/Os to go to the 10 car marker. I guess that was to be sure they were past the switches rather than incorrectly judging the distance.
Lemme guess...is it because Chambers is not on the north roll? Well then, they should've just put Atlantic Av, Bklyn on the top!
Another pleasant afternoon, another batch of outdoor pics.
New R-40, 40m, 68, and 68a pics on the site.
Here are a couple:
My Fave:
The pictures were taken at BeverLEY Road.
#3 West End Jeff
New R-40, 40m, 68, and 68a pics on SubwaySpot.com. Check 'em out here!
Preview: Enjoy!
My fave:
Cortelyou is meh, nothing much to it. I've never done a stop there. Today was my 2nd stop over at H, first on the BB bound plat. The platform is very narrow towards the rear, and you'd probably be clipped if you tried to take a pic of a local train in that space. The hill is incredible though.
Overall, the best spots on the line are Parkside, Beverley, Newkirk, H, M, Kings, and Sheepshead.
M is good because you have a strong chance of getting a Manhattan bound express and local train side by side. It always seems to be the case.
I believe the car in question is R-68a 5194.
If you saw the layout of the rear of the station, you'd see how it's possible to take that pic safely.
Dot matrix sucks cause the ink's always worn out, they're noisy, slow, and can do barely legible text.
Inkjet's great, but so far, the price point is horrid, though that's because HP, etc want it that way. If you had a sepperate cart / head, and a REAL resivoir (in bulk, the stuff's stunningly cheap, given that at the retail level, it's about $100,000 / gallon), you could do inkjet real cheap, and it's pretty fast (I can see ways to approach thermal speed, or beat it)
There's always the little pop pop pop roller that was common in the 70's / 80's...
Chuck Greene
Are you in the infromation (sic) security world now?
Chuck Greene
At least when we were riding there were no major screw-ups, although by mid day a number of ticket machines were being repaired.
Presumably most of the testing was done with single cars, because on two occaisions on our trip from Rand to Riverside, the back door didn't quite make the platform; in fact, on one of the stations it wasn't even close. At Riverside, the front half of the back door opened onto the platform. An employee on the platform informed the T/O to pay attention to the length of the two-car train.
The first car of the 12:24 that we entered southbound at Riverside was so crowded that we got on the back end of the second car, which was also SRO.
My Subway Spot photos from Day 1
Chuck Greene
Thank you for gracing my site's gallery with your top-notch work!
Regards,
Jimmy
Regards,
Jimmy
A/C/E: run on 6th Av using transfer tracks at W 4th, then the A goes to CPW w/ D as local, and is local in Bklyn, and queens. the E goes to queens. C suspended.
B/D: B is CPW southbound express, D is local uptown, express downtown
All trains express going south on CPW, local uptown
Shuttle from W 4th to 34th penn on 8th av line
F: unchanged
G: extended to 71av/continental
J: unchanged
L: unchanged
M: unchanged
N: Suspended north of Pacific, would go from here to 86th. One would get the D at Pacific
Q: From Brighton Beach to 34th
R: From 95th to Manhattan bridge, via 6th, then go to Astoria
S rockaway: unchanged(?)
S TSQ: suspended
S prospect park: highest TPH as humanly possible (or is it always 1?)
V: suspended b/c A renders it redundant
W: CI via west end, montegue rathole, via broadway to 34th, then use switches just north of station to relay (hopefully these switches MAGICALLY work!), but single tracking may be necessary
1/2/3/9: Lack of Diamond crossovers north of TSQ make rampant singletracking unfortunately necessary, otherwise, 1 from 34th to SF. 2/3 from 14th to their brooklyn terminals 9 eliminated
4/5 service increased
6: unchanged
7: terminate at GCT, use diamond crossover b4 steinway tunnels. 1 out of every three trains go to astoria
What do you think? Any holes (some are obvious though)?
2: Runs via Lexington Line between 149-GC & Atlantic, with alternating trains from Brooklyn terminating at Chambers Street.
Chambers Street trains use X-overs north of Chambers to reverse.
3: Runs between 148th St and 96th St
Trains reverse on downtown express track at 96th St.
4: Extended to New Lots Avenue.
5: Unchanged.
6: Also.
7: Flushing to Grand Central, using Crossover north of Grand Central.
S: Suspended between Times Square and Grand Central.
9-Broadway Shuttle: Serves local stops between 96th and 66th Streets. Uses uptown express track going downtown, and uptown local track going uptown.
Routing-- Normal between 66th Street and 96th Street. Reverse north of the X-over north of 96th St. Cross over to the uptown express track. Run express to 72nd Street. Cross over to the local track south of 72nd Street to terminate at 66th Street.
A: No transfer to non-8th Avenue lines at 42nd Street. Otherwise normal.
B: Express downtown between 145th Street and 59th St.
C: No transfer to non-8th Avenue lines at 42nd Street. Express downtown between 145th Street and 59th St.
D: Unchanged.
E: See A.
F: Unchanged.
G, J, L, M, Z: Also.
N: No service between 34th Street and Queensboro Plaza--via Tunnel.
Q: No service north of 34th Street--via Bridge.
R: Runs via 63rd Street, 6th Avenue Express, and Manhattan Bridge.
W: Shuttle between Queens Plaza and 49th Street.
Um, are you sure you can fit 40 TPH on the downtown CPW Express? I think not! :)
In addition, why have B and C trains skip 72nd Street?
So they don't slow down the A and D trains behind them, that don't stop there in the first place.
Lexington Av Line
(4)(6)<6> unchanged
(5)<5> full time to Flatbush, Utica or New Lots
Flushing Line
(7)<7> GCT-Flushing
Bustitution TSQ-GCT
42nd St Shuttle
(S) suspended
8th Av Line
(A)<A> 14-Queens Termini
(C) suspended
(E) via 6th Av to WTC
(S) Rockaway unchanged
Single track shuttles:
(S) 34-14
(S) 7 Av-50
6th Av Line
(B) 207 - CPW Lcl (Exp SB 125-72) - 6th Exp - Brighton Lcl full time
(D) 205 - CPW Lcl (Exp SB 125-72) - 6th Exp - West End
(F) 57/7 - 179/Hillside
(V) frequency increased, full time via Culver to Av X
Crosstown Line
(G) Continental-Smith/9
Nassau St Line
(J)(Z) full time via 4th Av Lcl and Sea Beach to 86th St
(M) extended part-time to Brighton Beach via Brighton Exp
14th St Canarsie Line
unchanged throughout
Broadway Line
(N)(Q)(W) suspended
(R) Canal-95
(W) Astoria-59/Lex full time
Single track shuttle:
(S) Herald Sq-Union Sq
Franklin Shuttle
(S) unchanged
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
That is in effect what I have done, except given it the letter B, as that is the route it must take below 145th St (and furthermore it's the right color).
2: Running via. 5 line to Brooklyn.
3: 148th st to 96th St and New Lots to 34th st/Penn, via local northbound and express southbound (this saves one relay).
4: No change
5 and 6: Not affected
7: Main St to Grand Central. Peak express service suspended and running on a limited rush hour schedule. (Maintain 4 min. headways)
Shuttle: Suspended, use M42 or 104 buses
A: 207th to 145th st shuttle only.
B: Suspended
C: Extended to cover Lefferts and Far Rockaway to 34th st, via. express from Canal to 34th st, and all stops in Brooklyn. One local shuttle runs back and forth between 14th st and 23rd st to cover that station. (The E will pick up the slack at Spring St)
D: 205th st to 125 st only. Use extended M for West End service
E: Runs via. V line from 5th Ave to West 4th st, then regular route.
F: No Changes
G: No changes
J: Not affected
L: Not affected
M: Extended to Coney Island, replaces D train.
N: 86th st to Whitehall St
Q: Brighton Beach to Prospect park. Shuttle train from Prospect Park to Atlantic Ave, via single track operation.
R: 95th st to Canal St.
W: Astoria to 57/7.
Why not City Hall?
I am planning some simple changes, this eliminates the shuttle train on the Q.
N: 86th st to Pacific St, via express. R and M make local stops anyway.
Q: Brighton Beach to Whitehall St.
R: 95th to Canal, and 71st/FH to 57/7 via. 63rd st and N/B express track (formerly the Q diamond side) as relay point. The W terminates at S/B express side, relays south of the station and is put-in at the same R track.
1/9: 242-96 St, skip stop eliminated then a shuttle train from 34 St-South Ferry. Since this is very extreme, there is really not much of a choice but to run two single track shuttles from 50 St-96 St on the local tracks with one train on each track.
The alternative [also extreme] is to have shuttle buses along with M104 service replace trains from 34 St-96 St with:
Express shuttles run via 7/8 Aves stopping at 34 St, 42 St then on CPW stopping at 72 St & 96 St
Local shuttles and M104's serve all 1/9 train stops along Broadway and 7 Av
2: 241-Flatbush but via Lexington Av express heading south, 5 service sees a slight reduction to compromise for 2 service. Trains run from Flatbush-34 St Heading north, trains turn at 34 St. Runs express on Lex all times
3: No service, use 4 in Brooklyn, 2 in Mahnattan. Also shuttle buses from 135-148 St.
4:Runs to New Lots at all times
5: Brooklyn service suspended. All times except nights runs from 238 [weekday rush] or Dyre to Bowling Green then late nights only E 180-Dyre.
6:No change
7: No service from Times Sq-Queensboro Plaza or GCT. Shuttle buses replace trains frmo QP-Vernon-Jackson
A:Runs in two sections
34 St/Penn Station-Far Rockaway or Lefferts Blvd
59 St/CC-207 St, runs express via CPW
B: No change
C: No service
D:Runs local along CPW but service in the Bronx and Brooklyn is normal
E: Runs from 2 Av-Jamaica Center
F: Increased service and Culver express from 4 Av. All Kings Highway bound trains run via local while Avenue X [soon Stillwell] runs express to Kings Highway
G: Runs from Church Av-Continental all times
J/Z: Replaces R service in Brooklyn and Z's have expanded hours. All Z's run express in the peak from Marcy-Eastern Pkwy
L:No change
M:Runs to 9 Av all times
N:Runs in two sections
34 St/Herald Sq-86 St via Broadway local
57 St-71 Av/Continental via 63 tube & Queens Blvd local
A special shuttle train runs from 57 St-Astoria
*Use 6 Av line to get 49 St and 42 St/Times Sq
Q: Brighton Beach-34 St/Herald Sq via bridge
R: No service
Franklin shuttle:Extended to Brighton Beach
Rockaway Park shuttle:No change
Times Sq shuttle: No service, use M42 & M104
V:No service
W:No service
Basically everything should be possible
D:Runs local along CPW but service in the Bronx and Brooklyn is normal
Opps, you have the 12-9 at S/B 81st st-MONH station.
All A trains on the southern half run local via Fulton St and 8 Av
Southbound B and D trains runs express then switches to the local at 72 St
If the arrangement on the N is not possible in the southern section then trains only run to Canal upper level and a additional single track shuttle runs from 34 St-Canal St UL while Q's run express and there should be a express track crossover north of 34; if not all trains use the crossover @ Prince and terminates at Canal LL.
Franklin Shuttle won't have to be extended to Brighton Beach.
WTF?
N:Runs in two sections
34 St/Herald Sq-86 St via Broadway local
57 St-71 Av/Continental via 63 tube & Queens Blvd local
Your north section might as well be called the R.
Your north section might as well be called the R.
True, but I guess I want to get nostalgic 8-).
:)
Your camera's flash is incapable of replicating the glare of the sun.
Same train approaching 69th Street
Regards,
Jimmy
Why/How are those 2 rollsigns paralell to each other? That shouldn't be!
I must find this car...
Rollsigns are placed in Paralell windows in R-40's. In R-46/68's they are not... I've been riding too many 75 foot cars.
I need sleep...
Ill be in NYC this weekend visiting from Calif... Any good connections, outlets or locations where I can legally get my hands on a station sign? No "hot" leads please :)
Ebay is also useful for such things.
-Chris
I will be in the city next week visiting. I am trying to get my hands on some station signs... LEGALLY that is.. No "HOT" leads please :)
http://www.mta.info/nyct/materiel/collectsales/mc04045.pdf (Adobe PDF file)
-Chris
In short, buses and trains will run in Philadelphia tomorrow...
Chuck Greene
I'm sick of these strike threats....it's a good thing, especially for Bush's campaign, that this strike was avoided (Bush is supposed to be in Philly sometime soon), otherwise people could start to blame lack of funds on him...I would - I do.
BTW, this is not the first application of diesel LRT on the American continent. The O-Train in Ottawa, Canada, beat the River LINE by a good two years . . .
As promised, here are the updated and confirmed car assignments. Thanks to many on this board who have expedited this inventory.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
--------------IRT Car Assignments-March 12, 2004----------------
1/9 (Red)-370 cars
370 WH R-62A 1851-1900, 2156-2475 (5-car unitized).
2-375 cars (239 St., Bronx)
375 Am R-142 6301-6415, 6421-6680 (5-car unitized).
--Am R-142 from 2 used on 5 as required.
--Am R-142 from 5 used on 2 as required.
3 (Blue)-280 cars
235 GE R-62 1301-1305, 1326-1335, 1346-1350, 1356-1365, 1371-1375, 1381-1385, 1391-1405, 1411-1434, 1438, 1441-1460, 1466-1470, 1476-1515, 1521-1530, 1536-1565, 1571-1620 (5-car unitized)
10 WH R-62A 1841-1850 (5-car unitized).
35 WH R-62A 1901-1903, 1905, 1906, 1908, 1911, 1912, 1915-1922, 1924, 1925, 1927, 1929-1939, 1941, 1943-1956 (cars 0, 1, 5, 6 from 1901-1956, except 1905 and 1910, have full-width cabs)
4 (Orange)-420 cars
80 GE R-62 1306-1325, 1336-1345, 1351-1355, 1376-1380, 1386-1390, 1406-1410, 1461-1465, 1471-1475, 1516-1520, 1531-1535, 1566-1570, 1621-1625 (5-car unitized).
70 Am R-142A 7216-7220, 7406-7410, 7661-7680, 7686-7725 (5-car unitized).
270 Am R-142 1101-1250, 7061-7180 (5-car unitized).
5 (East 180 St., Bronx)-380 cars
380 Am R-142 6681-7060 (5-car unitized). Used on OPTO.
--Am R-142 from 2 used on 5 as required.
--Am R-142 from 5 used on 2 as required.
6-450 cars (Westchester Yard, Bronx)
450 Am R-142A 7211-7215, 7221-7405, 7411-7660, 7681-7685, 7726-7730 (5-car unitized).
7 (Purple)-399 cars
190 WH R-62A 1651-1850 (5-car unitized)
209 WH R-62A 1904, 1907, 1910, 1913, 1914, 1923, 1926, 1928, 1940, 1942, 1957-2155 (single units).
S (Blue)-10 cars
10 WH R-62A 1901-1903, 1905, 1906, 1908, 1911, 1912, 1915-1922, 1924, 1925, 1927, 1929-1939, 1941, 1943-1956 (cars 0, 1, 5, 6 from 1901-1956, except 1905 and 1910, have full-width cabs).
Thanks again to all!
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
-----------BMT/IND Car Assignments-February 22, 2004-----------------
207 Street (A, C)-194 cars
96 GE R-38 3950-3989, 3992-3999, 4002-4049.
98 GE R-38 4050-4087, 4090-4149.
--Used on A, C.
Pitkin (A, C, S-Rockaway Park)-420 cars
62 GE R-32A (Phase I) 3356/3357, 3360/3361, 3370/3371, 3376/3377, 3380/3381, 3383/3890, 3394 3397, 3400/3401, 3404-3407, 3412-3417, 3424/3425, 3426-3429, 3434/3435, 3438-3443, 3448/3449, 3452-3455, 3460/3461, 3464/3465, 3471/3658, 3476/3477, 3484/3485, 3488/3489, 3492/3493.
24 GE R-32A (Phase I) 3504/3505, 3510/3511, 3518/3519, 3520/3891, 3538/3539, 3548/3593, 3550-3553, 3618/3619, 3621/3644, 3628/3669, 3646/3647.
16 GE R-32 (Phase I) 3650/3767, 3654/3655, 3662/3663, 3698/3699, 3714/3715, 3718/3719, 3728/3729, 3796/3797.
36 GE R-32A (Phase I) 3804/3805, 3810/3811, 3818/3819, 3820-3823, 3828/3829, 3834-3837, 3856/3857, 3864/3865, 3868-3873, 3894-3897, 3912/3913, 3928/3929, 3932/3933.
--Used on A, C.
2 GE R-32A (Sigma) 3594/3595.
8 GE R-32 (Sigma) 3880/3881, 3892/3893, 3934-3937.
--Used on C, sometimes A. Often mixed with Phase I R-32s or R-38s.
272 WH R-44 5202-5281, 5286-5318, 5320-5401, 5403-5479 (4-car unitized).
--Used on A, S-Rockaway Park, Lefferts OPTO.
Concourse (D)-276 cars
228 WH R-68 2500-2727 (4-car unitized).
48 WH R-68-1 2728-2775 (4-car unitized).
--Used on D.
Jamaica (E, F, G, R, V)-1,194 cars
34 GE R-32A (Phase I) 3354/3355, 3358/3359, 3374/3375, 3384/3385, 3388/3389, 3410/3411, 3419/3740, 3430-3433, 3436/3437, 3444/3777, 3445/3468, 3446/3447, 3469/3592, 3472/3473, 3494-3497.
66 GE R-32A (Phase II) 3348/3549, 3350-3353, 3362-3369, 3372/3373, 3378/3379, 3382/3831, 3386/3387, 3390-3393, 3398/3399, 3402/3403, 3408/3409, 3418/3863, 3420/3645, 3421/3558, 3422/3423, 3450/3451, 3456-3459, 3462/3463, 3466/3467, 3470/3919, 3474/3475, 3478-3483, 3486/3487, 3490/3491, 3498/3499.
30 GE R-32A (Phase I) 3500/3501, 3512-3515, 3522/3523, 3574/3575, 3578/3579, 3586/3587, 3590/3591, 3606/3607, 3610/3611, 3614/3615, 3624/3625, 3630/3631, 3634/3635, 3642/3643.
96 GE R-32A (Phase II) 3502/3905, 3503/3600, 3506-3509, 3516/3517, 3521/3862, 3524-3529, 3530/3741, 3531/3830, 3532-3537, 3540-3547, 3554-3557, 3559/3904, 3560-3573, 3576/3577, 3580-3585, 3588/3589, 3596-3599, 3601/3918, 3602-3605, 3608/3609, 3612/3613, 3617/3776, 3622/3623, 3626/3627, 3632/3633, 3636-3641, 3648/3649.
68 GE R-32 (Phase I) 3660/3661, 3664/3665, 3670-3673, 3676/3677, 3682/3683, 3688-3691, 3694/3695, 3704-3709, 3716/3717, 3720/3721, 3726/3727, 3730-3733, 3736-3739, 3742/3743, 3746/3747, 3750/3751, 3756/3757, 3770-3775, 3778-3787, 3792-3795, 3798/3799.
56 GE R-32 (Phase II) 3652/3653, 3656/3657, 3666/3667, 3674/3675, 3678-3681, 3684-3687, 3692/3693, 3696/3697, 3700-3703, 3710-3713, 3722-3725, 3734/3735, 3744/3745, 3748/3749, 3752-3755, 3758-3765, 3768/3769, 3788-3791.
20 GE R-32 (Phase I) 3806/3807, 3840/3841, 3876-3879, 3886-3889, 3900/3901, 3922-3925, 3938/3939.
76 GE R-32 (Phase II) 3800-3803, 3808/3809, 3812-3817, 3824-3827, 3832/3833, 3838/3839, 3842-3845, 3846-3855, 3858-3861, 3866/3867, 3874/3875, 3882-3885, 3898/3899, 3902/3903, 3906-3911, 3914-3917, 3920/3921, 3926/3927, 3930/3931, 3940-3949.
--Used on E, F, R.
722 GE R-46 5482-6131, 6136-6207 (4-car unitized, 6206/6207 open-end).
--Used on F, G, R, V, sometimes E.
26 GE R-46 6208-6258 (even only, paired).
--Used on F, R, V, sometimes E and G.
East New York (J/Z, L, M)-588 cars
280 GE R-42 (MK) 4550-4663, 4666-4679, 4682/4683, 4684/4727, 4686-4713, 4716-4725, 4728-4765, 4768-4839.
--Used on J/Z, L, M, usually mixed with R-42s (CI).
100 GE R-42 (CI) 4840-4939.
--Used on J/Z, L, M, usually mixed with R-42s (MK).
208 Bd R-143 8101-8116, 8121-8312 (4-car unitized)
(4 Bd R-143 8117-8120: CBTC Test Unit)
--Used on L and Weekend M OPTO.
Coney Island [B, N, Q, W, S-Franklin]-751 cars
98 GE R-40 4150-4199, 4202-4249.
194 GE R-40 4250-4257, 4258/4261, 4262-4419, 4422-4425, 4426/4429, 4430-4449.
--Used on B, N, W.
100 GE R-40M 4450-4459, 4460/4665 (MK R-42), 4462-4549.
--Used on B, N, W. Can be mixed with R-42s (CI).
10 GE R-42 (CI) 4940-4949.
--Used on B, N, W. Can be mixed with R-40Ms.
140 WH R-68-1 2776-2915 (4-car unitized).
--Used on N, Q.
--Occasionally mixed with R-68As.
9 WH R-68-1 2916-2924 (single units).
--Used on S (Franklin)
200 WH R-68A 5001-5200 (4-car unitized).
--Used on N, Q. Rarely on B.
--Occasionally mixed with R-68s.
Does "Sigma" refer to the R32s overhauled by GE?
I noticed that you break up the cars, but they are ALL GEs. Why do you do this? Is there some sought of difference between the two groups I just mentioned above as well as all of the other cars you mentioned?
Just curious. Thanks.
R-38s 4050-4149 and R-40s 4150-4249 were originally WH.
Below is the "Historically Correct" Roster Summary for the B-Division. Original R-40, R-40M, R-44 and R-46 numbers are omitted for clarity.
Don't know how well the formatting will hold, though.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
BMT-IND Car Roster-February 2004
Numbers Eqpt. Type Builder Year Rebuilder Year
2500-2724 WH R-68 WH-Amrail 1986-87
2725-2924 WH R-68-1 WH-Amrail 1987-88
3001-3009 GE R-110B Bombardier 1992
3350-3499 GE R-32A Budd 1964-65 MK 1988-1990
3500-3649 WH R-32A Budd 1964-65 MK/GE 1988-1990
3650-3799 GE R-32 Budd 1965 MK 1988-1990
3800-3949 WH R-32 Budd 1965-66 MK/GE 1988-1990
3950-4049 GE R-38 St. Louis-GSI 1966 GE 1987-1989
4050-4149 WH R-38 St. Louis-GSI 1966-67 GE 1987-1989
4150-4249 WH R-40 St. Louis-GSI 1968-69 Sumitomo 1987-1988
4250-4349 GE R-40 St. Louis-GSI 1968-69 Sumitomo 1987-1989
4350-4449 GE R-40 St. Louis-GSI 1968-69 Sumitomo 1989
4450-4549 WH R-40M St. Louis-GSI 1969 Sumitomo 1989
4550-4949 WH R-42 St. Louis-GSI 1969-70 MK/NYCTA 1988-1989
5001-5200 WH R-68A Kawasaki 1988-89
5202-5479 WH R-44 St. Louis-GSI 1971-73 MK/NYCTA 1991-1993
5482-6207 GE R-46 Pullman Std 1975-78 MK 1990-1991
6208-6258e GE R-46 Pullman Std 1977-78 MK 1991-1992
8101-8312 Bd R-143 Kawasaki 2001-03
208 Bd R-143 8101-8116, 8121-8312 (4-car unitized)
(4 Bd R-143 8117-8120: CBTC Test Unit)
--Used on L and Weekend M OPTO.
I assume the Bd stands for Bombardier. However, if I'm not mistaken, the R143's were built by Kawasaki.
Or am I totally misunderstanding this list?
-- David
Brooklyn, NY
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
for my site in its entirety:
http://community.webshots.com/user/neilf111
for the 506 here is the 2:
http://community.webshots.com/photo/120367362/125345952mfFDBF
http://community.webshots.com/photo/120367362/125345342hhyVec
Enjoy:
Neil Feldman
http://www.trainweb.org/phillynrhs/RPOTW.html
BTW I used to joke with people that I once spent a whole hour in Newark train station once, and the most exciting part was the lull during the last 10 minutes just before my train arrived, because I had run out of bullets.....
You would be willing to ride 64 miles on those DLRVs . . . ?
Sean@Temple
Sean@Temple
After that it was study til 6:30, walk to Drexel for a Materials final study session (just missed the rain!), stop by Fresh Grocer on my way back, back home eat some of the food and try to sleep.
I'll hit the River Line Thursday, once finals are over, but for now it's off to take afformentioned Materials Final!
Banner 1 has the 'cartoonize' treatment
Banner 2 just has the 'Blur' treatment
All treatments were done in MGI Photosuite III and MS Paint
-Chris
-Chris
Ben F. Schumin :-)
What exactly do you mean by "Not Real"?
Nice stuff by the way.
-Chris
Never heard about Vernon Blvd stop.
"But not much"??? A reduction from $1.9 B to $1.04 B saves almost one-half!
Ah, innumeracy.
Well, four weeks of research and slaving over hot electrons have finally come to fruition, and as of this morning, Version 3.6 of Tracks of the NYC Subway has been released.
In this kick at the can you'll find all the Manhattan Bridge changes, the new proposed layout of Corona Yard, larger type for the signal numbers on map pages, new routings at DeKalb, complete fleet updates and a lot more.
This will also be the LAST printing of the Third Edition. Starting around Memorial Day, to co-incide with the Stillwell service changes, I will release the Centennial Commemorative Edition, which will remain available only until December 31st, 2004. After that date, the Fourth Edition will be available.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.6 Now Available!
It's fairly simple. The third edition was released a couple of years ago. As the system changes, tracks go in and out of service, switches added, signals changed, etc, updated versions of the third edition are released. When enough stuff changes, and hundreds of corrections are accrued, I generally release a new version, in this case, the 6th reprinting of the 3rd Edition -- version 3.6. This one has all the new Manhattan Bridge routing changes, the new layout of Corona Yard and about 250 total changes, small and large.
If 2004 were just any year, Version 3.6 would stay current until May, when 3.7 would be released because of the Stillwell service changes (anything that major gets a reprinting). However, because we're on the verge of celebrating the subway system's 100th anniversary, I thought I'd release a Commemorative Edition instead of version 3.7. If one buys 3.6 or has bought 3.5, the Centennial Ed. won't be much more than a collector's edition. If, however, one has not bought the book before, or has anything before about version 3.3, there will be major changes, obviously. I have a few ideas for new material for that version as well as a few updates to how things are now.
Next year, it's about time that I let the third edition die completely. My usual release cycle was 2 years before. It's been three this time, so that's why the Fourth Edition will be out next January. There will be a couple of big surprises in the 4th Ed, but I'm going to sit on them until just before it's released.
I hope this makes some semblance of sense.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.6 Now Available!
That's a fall change now? Last I heard, the southern-most platform (West End) would go out of service May 23rd. West end service would switch to the Sea Beach platform (tracks 1 and 2) until next year, around May or so. After that time, the Sea Beach would finally return to Stillwell and the West End would go back to tracks 7 & 8.
That probably wouldn't get a full version upgrade by itself, unless there were a numerous other changes as well or it had been at least 6 months since the last version came out. If I release the 4th edition in January, and a bunch of stuff happens between then and the opening of Stillwell, it could possibly be in version 4.1. Otherwise, it will just be a reprinting of v4.0
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.6 Now Available!
Car #3506 Approaching Trenton Station
Car #3506 @ Tweeter Center & Delaware Avenue
Car #3507 @ Walter Rand Transportation Center Station
Car #3511 & 3506 @ Entertainment Center Station
Car #3513 @ Aquarium Station
Car Interior
MCI D4000 Cruiser IV #7564 @ Entertainment Station dressed for the River Line.
Click Here for QuickTime Video Clip of Car #3513 leaving Aquarium Station
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.info
Is that street in the video always that dead?
Anyone try to drive and tail the train yet?(something a sicko like I would do. And tail, not tailgate)
I noticed the lights turned red for a whole 2 seconds. Does the train trigger that? It seems something must've been mistimed. Unless there was a car making a right from the cross-street earlier, then nevermind. That would explain that(most better cities have lights now that only change when a car rolls over a loop, and if theres no car on the loop, it chages back).
And my other observation. Wow, that realy long train sure has an easier time keeping it in one lane than a 14 foot SUV does!
It probably does. My theory on this is because the road narrows by that overpass building the trainrings the bell for. As soon as the train cleared the intersection, the light turned green again.
I went to a RiverSharks game in September on the same night that the Dave Matthews Band appeared at the Tweeter Center. Camden was gridlocked. Eastbound traffic was crawling over the Ben Franklin bridge. The stadium was nearly empty in the second inning even though the game was sold out. the stadium was finally full by the 6th inning. The people who eventually sat next to me told me it took them an hour to get to the stadium once they reached Camden. I was oblivious to most of this (I could see the bridge traffic jam from Campbell's Field) because I rode PATCO to City Hall and walked to Campbell's Field.
Jersey Mike calls them the Camden Crime.
Now, the rationale for a part-time entrance is clear enough. There may not be sufficient traffic to justify staffing a booth 24/7, and it may not be economical to install HEETs at every such entrance (which would allow it them to remain open at all times).
But where a station portal is exit-only, and blocked by an iron maiden, it's less clear why it needs to be padlocked at certain times of the day. For instance, I use the IRT Franklin St station sometimes. The exits at North Moore St (at the northern end of the station) don't open till 7am. As iron maidens are there, I don't see any reason why those exits couldn't be available 24/7.
I'm assuming that when a station like Franklin St first opened, all of these exits were available; indeed, at that time they were presumably usable as entrances. Does anyone remember when the TA started "rationalizing" these exits? Some of them have rather odd hours (e.g., I saw one this morning that opens at 7:25am; why then?). How long ago did this start, and was it controversial at the time?
Mark
My hunch is that part-time exits are more common in shallow cut-and-cover systems, where an exit isn't much more elaborate than a hole in the ground, than in deep tunneled systems.
Partime exits are a good place for muggers to lie in wait for you.
There is also the issue of the homless amking a home for themselves there, and we already complain about the stench of such stations.
Given this however, I do not necessairly find a compelling reason not to find some way to keep them open.
Elias
http://www.pcac.org/reports/pdf/HEETreport.pdf
In brief, the Permanent Citizens Advisory Committee (PCAC) conducted a survey in 2001 to identify closed or partially closed fare controls that would be good candidates to be reopened. The report dates most of the closures to the 1970s, when—as Elias suggests—quite a few subway exits were closed for safety reasons. According to the report, many exits were sealed off permanently, and could not easily be reopened. The PCAC believes that conditions have changed somewhat, and many of these fare controls should be re-evaluated.
The report identifies eight closed, but not permanently sealed, exits that it believes should re-open with HEETS; and another seven exit-only fare controls that it believes should be converted to HEETS.
http://www.pcac.org/reports/pdf/HEETreport.pdf
In brief, the Permanent Citizens Advisory Committee (PCAC) conducted a survey in 2001 to identify closed or partially closed fare controls that would be good candidates to be reopened. The report dates most of the closures to the 1970s, when—as Elias suggests—quite a few subway exits were closed for safety reasons. According to the report, many exits were sealed off permanently, and could not easily be reopened. The PCAC believes that conditions have changed somewhat, and many of these fare controls should be re-evaluated.
The report identifies eight closed, but not permanently sealed, exits that it believes should re-open with HEETS; and another seven exit-only fare controls that it believes should be converted to HEETS.
Consider an "average local station" with a full time entrance/exit at the south end and a part-time exit at the north. If you close the part-time exit at the north end, Joe Mugger can't hide in the stairway to wait for victims.
So now Joe just hangs out at the middle of the platform waiting for some unsuspecting passenger to exit at the north end of the train -- where he has them cornered.
This situation is mitigated (perhaps considerably) today with NYCT's improved use of video monitoring -- but back when these decisions were made, there was very little effective video monitoring going on.
CG
Let's say I'm bound for N. Moore, and I know the exit I need is at the north end of the station, so I ride at the north end of the train. I get off at Franklin and -- whoops! -- the exit's closed. Now I have to walk all the way to the main exit along a deserted platform, up to the street, and back along a deserted sidewalk to N. Moore. Is that somehow safer than going up a single flight of stairs to my destination?
I don't understand why any HEET's or HXT's are locked up at night or on weekends, except for the ones that lead directly into buildings that aren't open to the public around the clock. It appears that NYCT is phasing out many part-time booths, replacing them with HEET's that are open full-time. Personally, I can't wait for my local station to join the program.
Speaking of which, the signs are sometimes off by a few minutes. In the fall, in order to get to work on time, I had to be on the train that consistently pulled into my local station at 6:31 or 6:32am. The part-time entrance closest to my apartment is signed as opening at 6:30. Perfect! Except that the entrance was never actually opened until just after the train I needed had already pulled out. After a number of phone calls, emails, and heated conversations with the S/A's, one of them told me that, according to the internal schedule that S/A's go by, the entrance wasn't scheduled to open until 6:35.
A person who's just gotten off the subway gets attacked by a criminal in the exit stairway, it counts as a crime in the system. An attack occurring on the deserted sidewalk outside doesn't. NYCT management obviously wants the subway-crime numbers to be as low as possible.
Granted, the closed exit may increase the chances of an attack on the platform, but I'll bet the overall risk of on-system crime is lower with the exit shut, even though the risk of crime in all locations (including the street) is higher.
At the part-time N. Moore exit on the northbound side, there is a small vestibule outside the fare control. You then turn left and climb a staircase. As you're passing through the HXT, you cannot see the stairs. This allows a mugger to lie in wait, knowing his next victim cannot see him there. Once the victim has exited the fare control, there is nowhere to run. No one to witness the attack. No one to hear you scream. The mugger doesn't even need to have paid a fare.
Now, it's true that a mugging could also take place on the station platform. But at least, as you're alighting from the train, you can see if anyone else is in the area. The mugger is less likely to have the element of total surprise. You can also run along the platform to the main exit, where the station agent can see you. You can scream, and the S/A may hear you. And lastly, unless you got off the train alone, there's at least a chance that others are on the platform with you; there's much less chance of that on a deserted stairwell at the far end of a local station in the middle of the night.
Rather than trying to argue that the safety claim is facetious, I think it's more promising to argue that the city and the subway system have gotten safer overall since the 1970s, when a lot of these exits were closed or lost their full-time status.
I'll bet the overall risk of on-system crime is lower with the exit shut, even though the risk of crime in all locations (including the street) is higher.
This doesn't make much sense, because crime is opportunistic. When you take away an opportunity, a certain percentage of crimes simply never have the chance to happen.
I wonder if they are going to reactivate the old tracks and trestles from the old North Side line or will be constructing an all new line.
I think this proves that the Rock Beach LIRR line could have been reopened as a JFK rail link instead of that muddled mess called AirTrain.
I'm hoping they will restore the passenger service or build some lightrail line.
One step at at time...
Norfolk Southern wants to operate a proposed commuter line that would be the initial startup line for a regional commuter rail system. The line is shown on this map and the first segment would run from Atlanta to Lovejoy. The GDOT orignally was going to propose to Amtrak to operate the line, but NS came in and says that it wants to.
If NS actually ends up operating this line, would this be the first freight company that would operate a passenger line in many decades?
Mark
Too bad, because the S-Bahn concept works so nicely.
Mark
#2. Shame this is all in Atlanta. I'm guessing the anti-rail folk aren't going to be renting any offices and rooms in the city to try to pursuade you guys from the evils of rail and to build more highways. Since Atlanta is the posterchild of road building gone bad around these parts.
Mark
Mark
Mark
Then the texas triangle would have to be built to dallas, they're going to have to get from houston somehow.
And more importantly, who would leave a rail line ending in capitol city or jacksonville, and not go the extra 150 or 200miles to the tourist mecca, Orlando?
And then, Orlando is only 60-80 miles from Tampa, and 80% of all europeans go to Both.
Hello progress city. haha.
But i'm not familiar with that portion, gulf coast HSR. Guess with the casinos and new orleans that makes sense.
Mark
Sure a German V-12 powered diesel-electric passenger-only state of the art low floor DMU doesn't exactly fit with the old image of a distilate powered 4-6 cylinder combo car held together with duck tape and chewing gum. But both are very light use branch line service running without overhead. And of course both ran on tracks shared somehow with freight, of course it was easier back in the day before the FRA stuck their head up their asses and got all bitchy about LRVs sharing track with Freight trains.
After all, my 1000lb car can share the road with a 80,000-100,000lb truck, a mere 2-3 feet away. So why can't an LRV weighing 100000-some lbs run on an adjacent track to a 400,000lb freight loco?
interesting.
subway.com.ru/maps.htm
"NJ Transit officials said that between 6 a.m. and 9:15 a.m., 850 people had stepped on board. On Sunday, the line's official first day of service, a total of 10,000 trips were taken."
I guess that's not bad. Though it is less first day people than in cities that's never seen a train before, but I think that's expected.
I think the Free connection to PATCO is a good move. Will entice people who experiment to give it a try. Let's see how it looks 3-4 weeks from now.
Is this a permanent thing or just a promotional arrangement for now?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Someone else might have more details. But if it wasn't announced until late last week, then we could probably count on others not knowing about it yet and ridership picking up. Though I'm thinking it's just me.
Not a bad $2.20 right there. And with my gas being 1.72(dunno what yours is), more buying power for the buck.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I usually caution against jumping to early conclusions, so I'll slap myself once in the head after noting that the average LIRR rush hour commuter train carries 1000 people. I'll slap myself a second time after pointing out that your average mom and pop deli/newsstand isn't sustainable on can be sustainable if it brings in only $2000 in revenue on a weekday.
They need to find riders. If this becomes the boondoggle some predict, the negative fallout will impact other worthy projects.
CG
If all the train does is bring more people to some waterfront and some minor league baseball team, then it suceeded in some aspect at least. We have public works project, not a super-megamall built here.
Tony: The service change took effect on April 18, 1965. All regular #5 Lexington Avenue Expresses were re-routed to Dyre Avenue. The #5 Lexington Av Thru-Express continued to operate to East 241 Street. This meant that there was no direct Lexington Avenue service at the local stations between Burke Avenue and Bronx Park East. There were complaints from the community and on May 3, 1965 the Thru-Expresses began running local north of East 180 Street.
Larry, RedbirdR33
I often wish the Transit Authority would be more creative and run a line from say Park Street to Boston College via Beacon Street. Or to Riverside, via Commonwealth Ave. But I suppose studies have been done to prove this unfeasable.
Some interesting notes about the Commonwealth Avenue line that I thought I'd like to pass along. Originally, the Commonwealth Avenue Street Car line extended well beyond Boston College, and in to the city of Newton and terminated at Norumbega Park. Norumbega Park was a classic "end of the trolley line amusement park", which also had a famous dance hall (The Totem Pole). I remember going to the amusement park as a child in the late 50's, early 60's, but this was long after streetcar service existed. In fact, there was an old car barn across the street.
: )
Is Amtrak running so short of equipment that now they are borrowing NJTs stuff so that they can run them into the ground as well?
As Mr. Dutchrailnut said, NJT got the option order on their ALP46s, which allowed them to have a fleet capable of taking over the Clockers in 2-3 years from their arrival. Rather than letting the last 4 ALP46s sit and get wheel flats sitting in MMC for 2-3 years, they loaned or leased them out to Amtrak to cover the electric locomotive shortage they're having.
I've never seen an ALP46 south of 30th Station, most of the time they pull the Keystones and Clockers to avoid this very thing. Did you happen to see this over Thanksgiving weekend? I ask, since trains can seemingly end up anywhere at that time.
Finally I'm a bit puzzled by your last statement, "SEPTA locomotives for Pennsy use, and so forth,". Did you mean to say that SEPTA locomotives, our 7 AEM7s and 1 ALP44 are used on the Keystone line to Harrisburg? I can tell you that that is patently untrue, the Harrisburg trains are run with P42s, no matter the fact that there is wire, power, and the lot all the way to Harrisburg. I think there was some rumor that the AEM7s were purchased so SEPTA could take over the Keystone service between Philadelphia and Harrisburg, as a kind of all-day R5 express or something, operated possibly between Suburban Station and Harrisburg's cool trainshed. Instead the AEM7s and our freebie ALP44 run the express morning and Evening R2 Warminster, R3 West Trenton, R5 Doylestown and Thorndale, and R7 Trenton trains, not much of a chance to stretch their legs like their Amtrak and even MARC couterparts do.
Yeah, right.
Not for too much longer. Plans have been in the works for at least two years to transfer Clockers from Amtrak to NJ Transit. That also involves no more service to/from Philadelphia and the trains ending at Trenton NJ.
Here to see a photo I took at about 12:30 PM today. The picture is of Eastbound train #2768 crossing 4th Avenue, entering the Bay Shore station. There's an error in the picture. Who'll be the first one to pick it out?
Sorry
here to see a photo I took at about 12:30 PM today. The picture is of Eastbound train #2768 crossing 4th Avenue, entering the Bay Shore station. There's an error in the picture. Who'll be the first one to pick it out?
Of course they could be refering to DMUs or the GT3s.
Or maybe they're refering to the M9s that'll run there with the ALP48s after I string the 25kv cat and finally modernize LIRR's 'temporary' 3rd rail installation, and their spontaneously combusting Dual Modes!
:)
Adam
As for a "10MU" marker being at Bay Shore, there was another one at the east end in 1985 -- I distinctly remember it, as I was first impressed that the platforms were high-level then, and then Inoticed the "10MU" marker at the Third Avenue crossing. I thought "Gee, electrification must not be far away!"
Guess that's as far as it got, placing two "MU" car markers, and nothing else.
How did the TA manage to overlook these? Is their management really that bad? This on top of other absurdity such as three destination signs and no route sign, two route signs and no north destination sign, or route signs installed backwards.
Steinway Street statio HAS mezzanines at both the 34th Avenue and Broadway exits!
Steinway Street station HAS mezzanines at both the 34th Avenue and Broadway exits!
As for your coments about TA management - Hmmmmmmmmmmm.
As for your coments about TA management - Hmmmmmmmmmmm
OK, I apologize for that one. I should've asked this first:
What department in the TA is responsible for installing, upgrading, inspecting, and maintaining signs? (Does such a department even exist?)
When the crews make up the train they test the messages before leaving the yard. However, they may or may not check each display in every car on every sign.
The messages are contained on the 'System' board within a number of E-proms. The boards are maintained by the Centralized Electronics Shop. Each board controls 4 signs in 2 different cars. There are 752 R-46s and 278 R-44s, meaning 515 system boards + spares. It is very possible that one board out of more than 500 did not get updated. Is that poor management?
When the crews make up the train they test the messages before leaving the yard. However, they may or may not check each display in every car on every sign.
The messages are contained on the 'System' board within a number of E-proms. The boards are maintained by the Centralized Electronics Shop. Each board controls 4 signs in 2 different cars. There are 752 R-46s and 278 R-44s, meaning 515 system boards + spares. It is very possible that one board out of more than 500 did not get updated. Is that poor management?
North Terminal
Grand St
(C)8 Avenue/Fulton St
This was a A train from Far Rockaway.
And another one like this:
167 St/Grand Concourse
Euclid Av
JFK Express
This was a C train from 168 St.
Run on the local tracks, and layup on M track.
I spotted two on the V train yesterday.
V| via 6 AV
V| 71/CONTINENTAL
Their numbers were 5752-3.
The new line will connect the Northern part of Amsterdam to the rest of the city by subway - a massive undertaking as these two parts of the city are seperated by water.
Here's a link for anyone interested in learning more:
http://www.ivv.amsterdam.nl/nzlijn/english/documents/pdf/corporatebrochure_03.pdf
What I believe is significant is that the Dutch are in the process of building a new subway line when many cities are reluctant to do any expansion of existing subway systems. In addition, they're connecting a portion of the city that has never seen tram or subway service in the past. This new subway will now give the Dutch in Amsterdam North access to the rest of the city via subway. So this is a major change.
http://www.schomakers.net/e-pagina-19.htm
Personally, I think it is quite amazing that the city has decided to build a new subway line after all, since it has not been quite the fashion for the past 20 years to undertake this kind of massive projects.
In the more distant future, a new East-West line should be built, connecting the Muiderpoort station in the east with the Lelylaan station in the west via the existing Weesperplein station (there actually is a station shell in place underneath the existing station) and the future Vijzelgracht station of the North-South line, and probably a stop at the 'world famous' Leidseplein (especially renowned for it's cafe's and noisy English hooligans ;-) ). But don't expect the opening of this line before 2020...:-S
Hot off the white hot presses!
***
The $19.5 million River Rail project, which will connect the Little Rock and North Little Rock downtowns with a classic streetcar line, is several weeks ahead of its scheduled Sept. 30 completion, said Keith Jones, executive director of the Central Arkansas Transit Authority.
The project will give the downtowns trolley service for the first time since Christmas Eve of 1947.
Even allowing for 30 days of testing, passengers could start riding the trolley in September instead of late October or early November.
“The contractor is really making headway,” Jones said.
The second phase, a quarter-mile linking the line to River Market development projects, including the Clinton Presidential Library and the new headquarters of Heifer International, won’t be finished until sometime in 2005, Jones said.
City officials and many business leaders portray the 2.5-mile River Rail line as a future tourist attraction, a magnet for new businesses and development, another attraction for large conventions and one of several jewels in the restoration of two faded but reviving downtowns.
“It’s another tool we get to use to tell people about Little Rock,” said Barry Travis, director of the Little Rock Convention and Visitors Bureau. “People will still come to Little Rock just to ride
the trolley. You don’t see trolleys with overhead wires every day anymore.
“The rail and all of it becomes part of a package for a destination."
***
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Construction may be done early, but they've got a long way to go before they can actually run. Makes me wonder if a novice model railroader - one with grandiose plans but no concept of operation or maintenance - is in charge.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
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Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Check out this simple list [Monthly payments]:
1]Monthly payment [new or recently used car regular sedan] - $250 to 350 dollars
2]Insurance payment [depending on state, city, etc.] - $100 to 200 dollars
3]Gas [current price] - $ 60 to 75 dollars
4]Parking [downtown] - $50 to 75 dollars with parking permit [estimated]
5] Tolls [NJ to PA] - $30-45 dollars with EZ pass
Now add that to my basic living costs
6] Rent - $750 dollars [high rise luxury apt building in suburbs]
7] Bills [cable, phone] - $140
8] Food [home cooked and restaurant] $240
9] Medicines [co-pay] - $60
Using the lower figures concerning the car, I would spenf $1580 a month. My take-home pay is around $1500 a month. I would be in the hole $80 [or a hell of a lot more if you use the higher figures]every month. Since I do not have a car, subtract around $490 dollars a month, and that money could be applied to my living expenses, and have something left over for ME.
And these idiots [ADC] think that autos are much cheaper than Mass Transit? I guess NOT! My transit costs are FIXED at $81 dollars a month. Owning a car would cost a minimum of $490 a month. Do the friggin math here ADC! But then you are probably a bunch or rich libertarians or Republicans, not a working-class wage slave like me.
Mark
Hah. Try $1480 for same in Elizabeth NJ and even higher in Newark.
And car thefts add into the equation too.
Either that or lobby for better public transportation. Driving is a privilege after all . . .
Mark
2]Insurance payment [depending on state, city, etc.] - $100 to 200 dollars
3]Gas [current price] - $ 60 to 75 dollars
4]Parking [downtown] - $50 to 75 dollars with parking permit [estimated]
5] Tolls [NJ to PA] - $30-45 dollars with EZ pass
I'll add the following which you did not factor in:
Tickets: You should factor in about $200 to $350 dollars in tickets each year. When I was driving a car, I would accumulate this amount easily. Trust me. If you get five parking tickets in Bayonne, NJ, you've already reached this limit. Furthermore, the parking permit won't protect you from receiving tickets in other towns or traffic/speeding violations. I hate to see you make a left turn on a "Thru Street" or park on a "Blue Line" or not put enough money on the "Muni-Meter".
Repairs: You should factor in about $500.00 dollars worth of repairs each year and this should not include regular oil changes which should be done ever 5K miles or 6 months of usage. You car will also need to be "winterized" and PLEASE don't forget the tuneup!
Break-ins: If you have a new car in New York City, be prepared to get your car vandalzed or broken in and possibly stolen! I can't tell you how many times (when my car was new) that people would break the window to steal something. The vadals made me sick to my stomach at all the damage they did to my car.
AAA estimates the average cost of owning a new car is about $6,000.00 dollars a year. Yet, they don't inlude the following items I described but trust me, you will have to pay for them.
But car repairs are up there. Just a CV boot is the cheapest thing i've seen so far, 100 bucks. Break a timing belt? If you drive a japanese car, you're engine might be destroyed. My car uses the belt instead of chain, 500 bucks. And apparently it was so common, the tow truck guy knew what it was after 2 seconds of hearing the engine. on and on(I got a broken AC, hopefully i just need a recharge, which i doubt). I dont' even want to think about how much all these stupid non-engine related parts costs me. Windshield washer pumps, cv boots, etc.
Theft. wooweee.I like it when people ask why I have an alarm on my car. Like people only break into lexuses or something. And they're the same people who always have their windows smashed in frequently and they still ask! My alarm did foil an attempt 3 weeks ago at least. But yea, they steal you're stuff more than they steal your car.
Of course I like my car, and I want to keep it, but it's sad when you can have an organization that defys all common sense when they try to dictate how you should live.
When the assets of the majority are taken to support the minority -- be it transit, welfare, the disabled or the elderly -- those groups are going to have to always be on the defensive to show why it is in the moral and/or economic interest of the majority to keep supporting them.
Fighting for transit subsidies on a moral basis is a losing proposition -- unless you're looking for transit for the poor, disabled or elderly to provide a minimum amount of mobility. This is how most areas have historically seen their public transportation.
Showing the aggregate economic return on transit is a much more difficult and complicated proposition. The assumptions involved are easily manipulated by those on both sides of the argument. Based on the chicken soup principle, one would expect that it would be considerably easier to show in cities like Boston, NY, Chicago and Philadelphia which are heavily transit oriented and more difficult in newer cities which have developed without major transit infrastructure.
I don't know what the actual transit subsidy is in South Jersey, but let's just figure it's 65%, which is probably somewhere in the neighborhood of the national average. So you pay $81 personally and John Q Public pays $150 to get you to and from work each month. If you want to make an economic argument for transit based on personal need, I suggest in the future leaving out the part about living in a suburban luxury high-rise.
CG
Your point about the sales tax is well taken. When the average American is presented with a clear choice in whether or not to fund a particular project through a tax increase they make better and more informed decisions than their elected representatives (of either party) do.
CG
When collisions on the Phoenix tollroads are like they are on the BQE, and gas goes to $3.00 this summer, it'll be a little easier.
And didn't gas prices go way above 2 maybe 3 bucks last year when some pipeline there burst and they ran out of gas?!?
What you're saying is right for the average citizen, their point of view, but it still doesn't explain the anti-rail and anti-tax speakers. Beause just reading any bunk from them defys all logic and common sense completely! I use one local message board, and I try to sell a mixture and support the rail plans, one other person disagrees and says it won't work, but not in an anti-rail stance, just a situational. I understand his concerns[even though they're wrong:)].
And some people, when they hear plans about putting in some train tracks, start to sound like they're telling them we're closing down the highway and you're not allowed to drive anymore.
Good point. In fact, we're arguing for more choice not less. Currently in most of the U.S., driving is the only game in town. No choice there! What we want is to give people the abiity to choose whether we want to sit in traffic or ride transit. I think rail advocates should be deliberate about using the language of freedom of choice when calling for better transit. IT not only takes wind out of the sails of some anti-rail arguements that use choice language, it also appeals to the sentiments held by many people in this country.
Mark
It's a misconception that transit is only for the poor. I was far from rich when I owned an automobile but I rarely had 20 dollars in my pocket at any one time. In fact, owning that car put me on the edege of bankuptcy as I was never able to save any money for emergencies. I ended up making making car payments, repairs and gas purchases totally on credit cards. My life was a ponzi scheme. Finally, a long period of unemployement forced me to get rid of a lifestyle that was unaffordable. It was only after I sold the car that all the cards eventually were paid off. If the truth be told, transit is for the middle class just as much as it is for the poor.
I can assure you there must be millions of car owners out there on the edge just like I was 4 years ago. The majority of people are simply trying to live an "illusion" of wealth by driving new cars. Society is brain washed into this lifestyle by watching 30 hours of television a week which includes 10 hours of commercials, the majority promoting expensive automobiles. USA Today reports record number of bankruptcies each year as the masses try to "Keep up with the Jones" by burying themselves with debt. I can almost assure you, the majority of those declaring chapter 7 are motorists.
Someone once told me being broke is temporary but poverty is eternal. Speaking from experience, owning a car left me eternally broke!
You are very right about the notion that a car means you've made it. This lie is very powerful in Philadelphia. It has a lot of negative consequences. As soon as poor people make some money, they buy cars, instead of saving it for emergencies, or to buy a home, or investing it in other ways that may secure their economic well-being. No, wiser options are forgone for the sake of owning a ten-year-old clunker. Another negative consequence has to do with how SEPTA is funded and operated. It is seen as a charity for losers who are too lazy to work hard enough to be able to afford a car. This is why it's underfunded by the state. But the attitude has been internalized even at SEPTA itself, which shows in how sloppily the system is operated. Better service? New lines? "Let 'em buy cars!" SEPTA seems to say.
Yuck.
Mark
Car ownership -- and the desire to have the newest / coolest / fastest / meanest machine on the road -- holds people back far more than they imagine.
I work in the insurance industry and often have the opportunity to look through policy files. These files will contain not only the policy information, but also the bill of sale for the car (in cases where the car is not owned outright by the policyholder).
It is terribly depressing to see file after file where a person pays the MSRP for the car; puts down only a few hundred bucks and then finances the rest at 19 or 21% interest; purchases a $500 warranty but pays $2000 for it (just throw the cost in with the loan); and then has to pay for costly low-deductible comp and collision coverage because they don't own the car, on top of the already expensive (but required) liability coverages. Saddled with all those costs, the person then continually misses insurance payments and lapses their insurance coverage and has to then pay broker fees to get a new or reinstated policy.
There are many areas of the country where owning a car is simply a necessity. Transit can help in some areas, but there are others in which transit will never be an option unless current residential and commercial patterns change.
It would be nice to see more people make wise economic choices for their current economic reality. Depending on the situation transit or a good used car make good economic sense to many people who are not availing themselves of such options today. Those people are the ones who are destined to a life of trying to make payments.
CG
Construction may be done early, but they've got a long way to go before they can actually run. Makes me wonder if a novice model railroader - one with grandiose plans but no concept of operation or maintenance - is in charge.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
In addition, 125th Street is at the same level as the riverfront. To get from the riverfront to 135th Street, one would have to climb a lot of stairs.
Use 125th instead. Remember that 125th actually cuts northwest across the grid; where it meets Broadway, it's around where 127th should be. Just walk along 125th to Marginal Street and turn right. If you prefer, take the Bx15 bus to the last stop, which will save you one long block of walking.
Do not take the M5. The M5 runs on the Riverside Drive viaduct, while Fairway is in the valley. It's a long walk, with a lot of climbing, between Fairway and the M5.
I don't know what you plan on buying, but the 74th Street Fairway has mostly the same selection and has, AFAIK, the same prices. It's easier to reach by subway: 1/2/3/9 to 72nd, north exit, and walk up a block.
Speaking of which, I need to go shopping.
The reasons why I'm looking into the Fairway uptown are many:
1. I live in Washington Heights
2. I prefer the Fairway uptown because it is less crowded and they have lower prices
3. They deliver to where I live! I will buy a lot of stuff, so I don't plan on hauling my groceries all the way back.
You are always a riot Mark.
However down in Transit, "buffs" are looked down upon. Therefore many try to hide it, and you'd never know. So that may explain your experience.
The other alternative is that these 2 just never interact. They mayt be one behind the other, but the other may go out on their next trip first, so they run upstairs to get something to eat or drink instead of going to the crewroom and therefore never see the other or know who they are.
Transportation are the folks who bust up the equipment.
Whatever the shop people are paid, it's not enough.
U break it..I fix it. CI Peter MAKES TRAINZ GO
It looks like there will be some major trackwork on the Babylon Branch on the Babylon branch which will have at least one track out of service between Rockville Centre and Wantagh.
Exactly what they're doing isn't entirely clear, but here's what I've been able to piece together from what's been posted so far:
Regular service will operate between Penn and Rockville Centre. A shuttle bus will operate between Lynbrook (one station west of RVC) and Wantagh as well as a shuttle train between Rockville Centre and Bellmore (one station west of Wantagh).
Things are even more interesting for those who travel from Wantagh and further east. At those stations you'll need to go east in order to go west. A customer going from Wantagh to Penn will take a shuttle train from Wantagh to Babylon where they will connect with a train that will go from Babylon to Jamaica and Penn via the Central branch. If my reading of the schedule is correct, this service will provided almost exclusively by dual modes.
So for those who want to see high frequency service on the Central or Dual Modes on the weekend, then this is the weekend for you.
CG
That's reverse of what I experienced a couple of years ago. Boarding a Dual Mode bi-level at Farmingdale (electric mode), we headed east to about Rte-135 overpass where we changed directions and headed down the Central to Babylon (diesel mode). At Babylon, we changed direction again and headed west to Jamaica running express in the electric mode. This maybe worth checking out.
Bill "Newkirk"
No, perhaps they're replacing a switch and both tracks will be OOS.
Bill "Newkirk"
http://64.226.170.141/cgi-bin/Interchange.pl?read=39028
Frank Hicks
Frank Hicks
I know I've been bitching lately about TA employees, so I thought I was due to give some praise.
Kudos.
Just when I thought Schenectady had enough. I feel sorry for Croaking Shipment Xpress...their tracks are not liking the sudden weather changes.
Mush ... it's not just for breakfast anymore.
77 degrees is our *IDEAL* in summer up here - but you've had recent "close encounters" with "northeast humidity" and thus that "magic" 77 happens five days out of the year up here. Heh.
We have *SEASONS* here ... you have "Da TERMINATOR" (I remember "Kindergarten Cop" ... "They're TERRIBLE!") ... I'll TAKE "seasons." :)
READ my other posts, but check out this observation of why THIS BARRY GOLDWATER REPUBLICAN has a problem ...
Things you have to believe to be a Republican today:
Being a drug addict is a moral failing and a crime, unless you're a
conservative radio host. Then its an illness and you need our
prayers for your recovery.
The United States should get out of the United Nations, and our
highest national priority is enforcing U.N. resolutions against
Iraq.
Government should relax regulation of Big Business and Big Money
but crack down on individuals who use marijuana to relieve the
pain of illness.
"Standing Tall for America" means firing your workers and moving
their jobs to India.
A woman can't be trusted with decisions about her own body, but
mulit-national corporations can make decisions affecting all
mankind without regulation.
Jesus loves you and shares your hatred of homosexuals and Hilary
Clinton.
The best way to improve military morale is to praise the troops in
speeches while slashing veterans' benefits and combat pay.
Group sex and drug use are degenerate sins unless you someday run
for governor of California as a Republican.
If condoms are kept out of schools, adolescents won't have sex.
A good way to fight terrorism is to belittle our long-time allies,
then demand their cooperation and money.
HMOs and insurance companies have the interest of the public at
heart.
Providing health care to all Iraqis is sound policy. Providing
health care for all Americans is socialism.
Global warming and tobacco's link to cancer are junk science, but
creationism should be taught in schools.
Saddam was a good guy when Reagan armed him, a bad guy when Bush's daddy made war on him, a good guy when Cheney did business with
him and a bad guy when Bush needed a 'we can't find Bin Laden' diversion.
A president lying about an extramarital affair is an impeachable
offense. A president lying to enlist support for a war in which
thousands die is solid defense policy.
The public has a right to know about Hilary's cattle trades, but
George Bush's driving record is none of our business.
You support states' rights, which means Attorney General John
Ashcroft can tell states what local voter initiatives they have a
right to adopt.
What Bill Clinton did in the 1960s is of vital national interest,
but what Bush did in the 1980s is irrelevent.
Trade with Cuba is wrong because they're communist, but trade with
China and Vietnam is vital to a spirit of international harmony.
Yes! And there should be a special, separate entry in the budget just for railfan window glass.
Except for maybe the TUNA car.
I've actually seen the car myself.
- A mixed consist of R40M/R42's on the W containing 5 of each type.
- An unusual number of police officers at Broad Street this afternnon, the only place the heightened security was visable
- The female conductor I bitched about 2 weeks ago on the B.....now working on the A!
- What I can only describe as a supermodel convention letting out as about 12-15 very tall, very beautiful women riding the W train I was on from Times Square to Prince Street. You could easily point out the heterosexual men in my car.
- An R42 M train with the front car's sign set with the diamond M, both bulkhead and sides.
The only way that is possible is if one of the sets was the odd couple. If so, which way was the odd-couple oriented? Was the R-42 on the side of the train with the two other R-42 sets? So was it:
[R-42|R-42][R-42|R-42][R-42|R-40M][R-40M|R-40M][R-40M|R-40M] ?
(R42/R42)(R42/R40M)(R40M/R40M)(R42/R42)(R40M/R40M).
Yes, it did contain #4446-#4664.
I noticed another mixed consist, on the B, which had 2 R42's tacked on to a string of 8 R40M's.
40m set - 40m set - 40m set - 42 set - 40m set.
They never let the R-42 lead on a train of R-40m/42 mixes. I've never seen the R-42 as a lead motor.
However, I've seen R42/R40M sets with R42's up front when they were mixed on the J/M/L a few years back.
This was strange. The rest just typical New York. Of course, I would love to see the smorgasboard of the early 1980's on the IRT again, but in redbird colors so it looks a little neater.
Regards,
Jimmy :)
Jonn
I remember that very well!
I'm gonna say that there was a gap in R service.
- A mixed consist of R40M/R42's on the W containing 5 of each type.
This consist had to include 4460/4665 in the middle.
Yeah, that's sorta a no-brainer.
An R42 M train with the front car's sign set with the diamond M, both bulkhead and sides.
OMGHSWTFBBQ?????????????????
The ONLY rollsigns that have the diamond M are the R-32 (except 3380,3381,3510,3511,and 2 other cars), R-38, and R-143! How the holy !@#$%$@! did you see a diamond M on an R-42? The only thing that could beat that in terms of craziness is a 75-foot car on the Eastern Division (or the IRT)!
Flesh
Oh wait, those have been removed ...
Here in New York, we do NOT refer to our trunk routes by color. We have grey and lime green in use on our "L" and "G" lines. We have also used two shades of blue - light and dark.
In Washington, DC there is provision for white and silver (grey) lines.
In London, where lines are referred to by name but have a color associated with them, there is pink (Hammersmith & City), Aqua (Waterloo & City), grey (Jubilee), black (Northern), two blues (dark-Piccadilly, light-Victoria).
wayne
Actually, we do not presently. Of course, we do have 2 shades of green.
Regards,
Jimmy
You can check the R42 and R40 pages of the rolling stock section and you will see "full-size" window signs, which were used up until about 1977, when they converted to bullets starting with the Slants on the "A".
wayne
David Harrison
Mark
So here are the names, and the color of the route:
1]Broad St Line - Orange Line
2]Market-Frankford - Blue Line
3]Subway-Surface - Green [in the 70's it was purple]
4]Media-Sharon Hill - Brown
5]Norristown Line (aka the P & W, or Route 100) - Purple
Reginal Rail - Gunn wanted to call them the Silver Lines [named for the Silverliner rail cars. The color is silver on the SEPTA maps with individual lines using different color markers:
a]R1 - Yellow
b]R2 - Purple
c]R3 - Orange
d]R5 - Blue
e]R6 - Green
f]R7 - Red
g]R8 - Tan
Schedules of each line:
On the Pennsy side [west], usually the colors are a dark shade, on the Reading side[north], the colors are a light shade. This applies to the R2, 3, and 5 only [the lines with split schedules].
PATCO was designated Red on the subway maps. They chose Red because if expansion was to arrive, they would use colors to designate their lines.
Now that the RiverLine is operating, what color should that line use?
Regards,
Jimmy
Of course, that's not all that strange.
Then, we passed that C train at 50th st.
We get to Canal, and we're seeing yellows. Thought that it was because of the A in front of us, but we get to the station, and there's another C train in the station (since when do C trains get that close together?)
Anyway, the C train crosses, and the signal in the MIDDLE of the platform changes to yellow, while the one directly in front of us stays red. But the stop arm goes down anyway. The T/O paused for a few seconds before going through the red signal. We went THROUGH a red singal.
As the last weird thing, we got to B'way Nassau, and had both A and C trains directly ahead of us, and the platform was still crowded.
Your second strange thing sounds like the T/O accidentally keyed by a timer. I once saw that happen on the BMT in Brooklyn and the signals acted exactly as you describe. Only difference is, I waited until now to say anything about it publicly, and even now I haven't given any indication of date, time, or location, since I don't think the T/O endangered anybody's safety by passing a red without authorization.
I've rode the line since September, and it's happened 3 times. Likely, it does not happen everyday, but I wouldn't be surprised to hear multiple times a week.
It's also never happened to me Northbound.
A major motivator is the drastic downturn in ridership on the Cermack branch. More "pie in the sky" but moving towards reality is express service between O'Hare and Midway Airports with a new subway terminal and connection downtown.
Portions of both the Orange and Blue Lines would be enlarged to either four tracks or three tracks with a bi-directional capability. The two track subway stretches would remain. An express O'Hare train would be expected to pass three locals enroute.
The downtown terminal would include a new connection between the State Street and Dearborn Street subways. This angled connector space for only a six car platform I am told. A longer capacity would require tunnelling beneath downtown buildings. The planned terminal block is currently almost vacant. Unfortunately, this new connection would sever the longest continuous platform and Chiacago would loose a place in the Guiness Book of Records.
And hot off the press...the Illinois Gaming Board has approved a casino in Rosemont, IL a mere half mile from the River Road Blue Line station. Can any other city boast of rapid transit service to a casino?
David Harrison
-- David
Brooklyn, NY
Well, no shit... The line has been under massive reconstruction for the past couple years and has had its service repeatedly slashed. I fail to see what could be gained by routing the line via the Green Line, other than possibly freeing up space on the Blue Line for more Forest Park trains. However, I was never aware that overcrowding was a major issue on the Forest Park branch. And aren't there enough trains on the Loop elevated already? Cermak riders get screwed once again, this time by having a longer and more roundabout way into the Loop.
Not that I'm opposed to seeing the Paulina connector back in revenue service, but I'd rather see it as part of the proposed Circle Line (Semicircle Line?) around the Loop. Have there been any more noises about that idea?
I'm all in favor of express service to O'Hare and possibly Midway (although existing Orange Line service to Midway is already reasonably fast -- seems like express service would be a major expense with minimal benefit). Ideally, though, the express lines should be four tracks all the way to avoid complicated switching manuevers. Of course this would be more expensive, but hey, nothing in life is free.
And instead of having a new terminal in the Loop, I'd question why express trains couldn't be through-routed between O'Hare and Midway via a new 2-track subway tunnel in the Loop, perhaps under Wabash Avenue. This would provide easy transfers to other lines, and not require radical butchering of the State and Dearborn tunnels.
Of course, it's interesting that Chicago has had subway service to both airports for years now, and is now considering express service to both airports. Meanwhile, NYC still can't seem to find a way to create a one-seat ride to either JFK or LGA.
-- David
Brooklyn, NY
Well, I don't know... back in the first half of the century, the CA&E ran express trains on the West Side Elevated - which was mostly only two tracks - and they ran that line FAST! (Unfortunately I don't have "Living Legacy of the CA&E" onhand so I can't tell you exactly how fast.) They had the schedule timed so precisely that the CA&E express would come up behind the elevated train while the "L" was at a station, switch over to the oncoming track, and pass the "L" train while it was loading! They would then switch back onto the correct track and continue the trip - generally at full series, I believe, which is about 40-45mph (slower for the crossovers, certainly). But of course that was the old days, and with today's technology that sort of speed and efficiency would be exceedingly difficult to accomplish. ;-)
Frank Hicks
Will that casino by chance be across the street from the Holiday Inn on River Road? (I stayed there in June 1995, and there was this large open field there at that time, of course it could have been developed in the ensuing 9 years).
Does the Las Vegas monorail count?
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
Chuck Greene
Sounds like a life extender -- working outside, walking, etc. Not bad, compared with life in a cubicle. There must be some reason that postal workers flip out, however.
BTW, there has been a substantial decline in postal service employment, and federal employment in general, in New York City over the past three years. The long run trend was down, but it has accelerated. Don't know why. But no one has postal lines like we do.
There's a joke that there is a Postal regulation that states that all service "windows" must never be open at the same time.
I've been in the Main and neighborhood Post Offices all over Baltimore, and every one I've ever been in, all of the "windows" were not open at the same time.
Same's true with bank teller windows, of course, but at least in banks there are ATM's that can handle many transactions. In your typical post office, you may have a stamp machine, but more likely than not it's hors de combat.
FedEx and UPS are substantial competition, not to mention e-mail. In addition, most junk mail is pre-sorted in a manner that reduces the amount of Postal Service labor required.
In one of the more colorful ideas that the Feds have come up with to entice people to use the Postal Service is the loosening of some of the strict guidelines for mailing packages. I heard taht the Postal Service will start allowing unusual sized material to be sent via the mail (i.e. an equalaterl Triangle, or a package of donuts).
Regards,
Det. Sipowicz
Regards,
Jimmy
Regards,
Gunther Toody & Francis Muldoon
You'll get some mail??
Maybe a package or magazine feeling thing that's covered up with no logo or label of what it's from?
;)
You shouldn't use that adjective to modify your deity.
Did I miss anything? :)
Restaurants. A 600+ acre park, with bandshell with free summer concerts. Choice of churches. Post office. Multi-screen movie theater. Full supermarket 3 blocks away. Then, within a mile walk or so (or short bus ride). Stable with horses, which can be ridden in the park. Ice skating rink. One of the five largest art musuems in the country. A large central library. A major botanic garden. A farmers market with fresh produce sold over a table by actual farmers.
In addition to the stables, the girls can walk to girl scouts. Irish dancing lessons in the church basement. Soccer in the parade grounds, another part of the park. There is also a small field with sports for tots right near the subway stop. Several playgrounds nearby (we've outgrown them). Historic carousel. Fireworks in the park on New Years Eve. A big St. Patrick's day parade that starts and ends four blocks from me. A big West Indian festival each year that's a mile away. Puerto Rican, African, Russian, etc. festivals in the park every year.
A subway station one block away. Ocean beach a 20 minute train ride away and Manhattan 30 minutes away. There are 2 million jobs in Manhattan, plus attractions and activities that people come from all over the world to experience. But, if you don't feel like going there, Brooklyn also has an aquarium at the beach. Change from the subway to a bus to take a fishing boat out, rented equipment and food and drink included. Also down by the beach, another bandshell with more free concerts. Change at the G for concerts the Brooklyn Academy of Music. They want to put an Arena for the Nets basketball team there.
By the way, neighborhood types who elected to stay here in the 1970s tell me they had to pay cash for their houses because the whole area was redlined, and no one would provide a mortgage. Perhaps it's time for American to reconsider the way it wants to live and build more Brooklyns. Unless you are much richer than I am, you can't afford this one anymore.
Actually, back in the early 1990s when this issue was hot, Walmart did not want to be in Brooklyn, because it didnt' like the clientele. A Kmart opened but then folded, along with Kmart itself. Target will open any day now.
(But for low prices on most household items it can't be beat.)
Costco is better and cheaper, though the selection is not as broad.
Target has been open for some time (Greatland even), why does no one remember that?
Horsefeathers. Each new Wal-Mart creates probably a couple of hundred jobs or more. Okay, they're generally not high-paying jobs, but in many cases Wal-Mart hires people who aren't particularly employable otherwise. That would be especially beneficial in NYC, with its huge population of unskilled, uneducated people. Almost certainly, the numbers of jobs lost in businesses that couldn't compete will be lower. Wal-Marts also generate massive amounts of tax revenues and, most importantly, allow people of modest means to buy the things they need at reasonable cost.
I wonder how the yuppie version compares, SuperTarget.
Show me the statistics. I don't believe that claim.
Sounds kinda fruity ...
Plus, as a former cop, you'll have that extra sense about you, so maybe you'll notice things, stop a crime...
BTW, just for argument, I don't suppose being a postal inspector would appeal to you?
--Mark
I call those types MANGEment.
Congrats to you Jeff! Just don't let the dawgs get to ya...
Sarge: Good luck on your new job. As one former sergeant to another I'll still call you "Sarge." ITs not just a job title its a way of thinking.
Remember: "The postman always rings twice."
Say hi to Ray Heatherton for me.
Larry, RedbirdR33
I'd rather say hi to his daughter Joey.
Why not run the Sea Beach through to Coney Island, while terminating the West End at Bay 50th Street for a while? It seems only fair to share the pain. And, B64 runs from Bay 50th street right down to Stillwell. Sea Beach riders do not have a convenient bus connection to Stillwell, and no shuttle bus is on offer.
This decision really makes the Sea Beach seem to be the less important line in SW Brooklyn.
I would think that post 2/22, the F would be the least popular way in/out of Coney Island, and that line should remain cut.
Seriously, I dont know if there's anywhere to turn the "D" trains at Bay 50 street. They'd have to terminate them at Bay Pkwy.
wayne
About 15 years ago, the B DID terminate at Bay 50th st for a month or so, with a shuttle bus from Ulmer Park (the nearest depot) to Stillwell. Apparently T/O's and C/R's complained about that because that was the last time, ever, that the B would use Bay 50th St as a terminal due to a G.O.
But if you're "on the clock" you're supposed to either "brownbag it" or do without (unless there's a broken vending machine in the crew room with "month-old bread" in it or a Triscuit bar") ... I've told stories before about copping a Veal Parm sammich and using my floor heater to keep it "friendly and at proper health dept "serving temperature" until the CPW dash ... a turnaround though does little as far as "off TA property cuisine" goes ... just thought I'd mention the realities ... doesn't matter.
When I worked the D, 205th was *not* the "terminal" for US ... Bedford Park was ... 20th had GREAT food (I lived there) ... no TA emplyee ever knew. :(
But yeah, electron-cooked hot sammiches *WERE* the luxury of arnine duty ... ask *ANY* old-timer if they had a "hot lunch" on an arnine. Hahahahahaha.
Oh, and forget about trying such a thing on an R143. Those things are barely enough to keep your feet warm. I tried cooking something on one of those. After 2 trips gave up and just heated it up at 8th Ave to the point it was glowing so it would be hot at Broadway Junction.
Better yet, why not just through-route the N and Q? They even have matching headways! Going southbound, they would be the same as they are currently, to avoid confusion. But instead of changing ends at Stillwell, would continue through onto each other's route, running the same way, then going back to normal at Canal Street. That way EVERYBODY has access to Stillwell and no more goddamn crew changes at Kings Highway. (Why can't the replacement crew ever be ready right away when the train arrives? And why do they have to dump the damn train, just to have to charge it up again!)
That's what Bedford Park has been doing on the D line since it was operational from day one, back in 1933.
No joke ... you ran an arnine into 205 ... your switchman got on the back. You'd pull your dunebuggy into the relayhole, then you'd drop your reverser, rotate the handle to "out" and NEVER DUMP. On arnines, the "handle out position" was just south of "lap" ... you could HOLD a lap and handle out, thus NEVER dumping the train.
You'd "buzz-buzz" your switchman and INSTANTLY, the train would roll out of the relay while YOU walked forward to stand on the platform for the NEXT train out to relieve THAT switchman and take it home to Bedford. That's how it flew. When 32's came in, they didn't dump at 205, but they *HAD* to dump at the ass of the relay. Then penalty chargeup time. There went the TPH and the ACTUAL 30 minute break at Bedford. :(
But the ARNINES worked. Anything else has to take an AIR CRAP. :)
Because the train arrives at (xx) minutes and is scheduled to leave at (xx + 3), while the crew has to be on the train two minutes before its scheduled leaving time.
As for dumping, brake handles follow their T/Os, so anything other than the R44/R46 has to be dumped for a crew change at the same position.
The engineer must remove his key.
That discharges the train.
The new T/O inserts his key, charges the train
and now needs a new brake test.
That's the fastest they can do it.
Elias
BTW: Who gets to change all of the roll signs, and
2) that will mix the fleets so that they will be at all of the wrong yards by nightfall.
He has to remove the brake handle, that's what dumps it. The units were modified to the brake handle couldn't be removed without placing the train in emergency first.
T/Os remove their reverser "key" all the time, doesn't dump the train.
Spent more time hob nobing with Engineers on LIRR M1s.
THEY HAVE KEYS!
: ) Elias
So answer for me a question. The (N) has access to CYI from 86th Street. Does the (D) have access to CYI from from Bay 50th Street? Well, yes trains can get in and out of the yard, but it would take one heack of a lot more switching, you would need extra crews to do it, and it still would not be quick or efficient.
so that, IMHO, is why it wasn't even considered.
Elias
BTW, those who want to experience the Sea Beach express run should note that a midday GO has all Manhattan bound N trains running express from Kings Highway to 59th St today thru Friday.
Regards,
Jimmy
Normally I wouldn't give a rat's ass one way or the other about the Sea Beach Line, but since I now live on the (N), I have a personal interest in seeing it go all the way to Coney Island (as well as express across the bridge, for that matter). This, of course, now puts me in the uncomfortable postion of having to agree with Sea Beach Fred about something... At least until I move to another part of the city.
-- David
Brooklyn, NY
In any case, IF the opening takes place in May, all stations may not be opened at the same time. While Stillwell terminal may be complete enough to open (but not totally finished), the rebuilding of West 8 Street lags which means F and Q trains could be skipping through for a little while. Also, the ADA improvements at Neptune Ave.-Van Sicklen (F) might not be totally complete by then, though the station could be reopeneed via the existing facilities.
As it stands, the total package won't be complete until sometime 2005 for all four lines no matter what.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
South of Bay 50, that's a diamond (grade) crossing from SB West End D1 to the CIY Lead (D14). There is no double-slip switch point present to reach NB West End (D2). Thus there is also no true way to turn D trains at Bay 50 Street without using the facing point north of the station from D1 to Middle (D-3/4), relaying at the station using a tempoarry platform, then returning north on D-3/4 all the way to the interlocking south of Bay Parkway. This would either force 25 Avenue to be skipped NB or the addition of another temporary platform.
Frankly, it would be difficult or impossible to justify this type of expense (or the addition of switches/points) given the disruption for the brief anticipated length of service, along with potential ridership loss on a heavier route.
Sorry to say, again, but there just isn't any easy way to "share the pain" between the Sea Beach and West End before the new terminal is complete.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Unfortunately I didn't get down to Trenten until yesterday evening, so most of my pictures are at night. Also, since I was in that neck of the woods (Trenten, Camden, Philadelphia), I took the opportunity to photograph other modes of transportation as well as other agencies (SEPTA, PATCO) to name a few.
Here's a couple of photos:
Trenton Rail Station
River Line resting at Entertainment Station
Interior of NJTransit's River Line car
Interior doorway of the River Line car
Walter Rand Transportation Ctr. in Camden, NJ of NJTransit and PATCO
PATCO accepting passengers at the Broadway Station
Interior of PATCO car #294
Frankfort Transportation Center
M4s resting between runs at the Frankfort Transportation Center
Mezzanine area of Frankfort Transportation Center
On my way back home last night, I heard the familiar whistling sounds of an R32 arriving on the "E"-or so I thought and boy was I surprised when I saw this roll in instead:
I have plenty more pictures at:
NJTransit's River Line and then Some
SEPTA at Night
Let me know what you think.
Enjoy.
1. Right click on that picture and choose Properties
2. Where it says "Address (URL):", highlight all of that mumbo-jumbo and copy it.
3. Hit cancel.
4. Go to this board
5. Use the following html code:
6. Where it says location, paste in that mumbo-jumbo you copied
7. Press "Preview Message Before Posting" if everything is alright, then post it.
This should work.
Replace parenthesis with brackets.
BTW, isn't it Frankford Trans. Center?
-Jeff
I wholeheartedly suggest pushing for a "LIRR for Queens" plan -- basically extended CityTicket. Any off-peak trip (not just weekends) within New York City costs $3 (not the $2.50 price of CityTicket). Reopen Richmond Hill with a connection to the J at 121 St, which is almost directly overhead. Extend Kew Gardens and Forest Hills to at least 6 cars. Put Floral Park back on the mainline and make it a transfer point for Hempstead <-> Mainline, allowing an increase in Hempstead Branch service to serve both Hollis, Queens Village, Bellerose, and the Mainline.
That would be an exercise in futility.
1. There's no 3rd rail on the line.
2. It's connected to the LIRR.
3. If the LIRR stops running trains on the Lower Montauk, its charter -- dating back from the 1800's -- becomes invalidated and all land owned by the LIRR reverts back to its original owners.
Yes that's true, and why the oddball local service ran for so long and even the lone LIRR now still runs there. But also remember that the LIRR is owned by the MTA which also owns the the subway, so I don't think that would ruin the charter as since the MTA owns the LIRR, the charter is a part of the MTA now, and as long as an MTA passenger service runs on the line it shouldn't violate the charter.
They are both Oyster Bay trains.
Does anybody know about this station? Exactly where is it located? When and why was it abandoned?
Thank you.
It was closed years ago because of lack of use. During the Cold War it was stocked with bomb shelter supplies to feed and water the World War III survivors who would find safety in the subway.
It was re-opened briefly for the Bicentennial but still was not used.
This ones got a SIR R44 and a REDBIRD! Hope you like it!
-Chris
D.
Koi
I know what board this is! :-)
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
Perhaps its not fair to judge a line by opening day. The equiptment and stations are still new and shiny and the employees are out in force and on their best behavior. I beared this in mind as I prepared to make my first ride.
After a few pics with my new film and digital cameras, purchased only the week before and making their railfan debut, I boarded the 9:11 train towards Camden. The train was half full at this hour. The cars acceleration is quiet and smooth although if you listen carefully you can car what sounds like a low-pitched F-40 or GP-40 engine accelerating, their distant cousins. Rode to to the Aquarium station and took a few pictures of the Riversharks ballpark, the Ben Franklin Bridge and of workkers taking down the stage area in the parking not next to the station, where the opening ceremony speeches had taken place the day before.
I reboarded the train on the northbound platform at 9:48 and headed towards Trenton. THe train paused an incredible THREE MINUTES at the Walter Rand Transportation Center and shortly after restarting, entered the PRW and accelerated to about 45-50 mph. The seating on board the cars reminded me of those found on the DMU's of the newer British trainsets that I rode a few years back. They weren't all that comfortable to a slightly burly person such as myself and appeared to be contoured to one's body wrong.
At Riverton Station, abou thirty NIMBY protestors held up signs saying things like "welcome to the ride to nowhere" and "each ride on this line costs taxpayers $33.80". A young lady sitting behind me told her husband/boyfriend "I hate these people". She proceeded over to the still open door and shouted, "you people are a bunch of assholes, the train goes through your town and you have the nerve to call it the train to nowhere, then how do you like LIVING in nowhere? you must not be very proud of your town". Just abou everone, including me, cheered for her show of gumption to the forces of NIMBYism. She reminded me of the former Mrs Booge in her straight foward style!
Through Florence, a very picturesque town, the line goes right through on a central reservation PRW. Many folks in town were out waving to the passing train and appeared to be happy to have the River Line going through it, unlike Riverton.
Before reaching Trenton the line goes through a wooded area before crossing over the Delaware River and reaching Trenton proper. Three potential traffic generators, in addition to the rail station are: The Roebling Market, Soverign Bank Arena and Mercer County Waterfront Park. Hopefully all three of these locations will become important destinations on the line.
The train arrived at Trenton Station at 10:58 AM. The two track terminal is just accross the street from the station and is well served by NJT buses and the Capital Connection to downtown and the state offices.
I entered the terminal to ride the SEPTA R-7 line to Philly. SEPTA is treated like second class citizens at the station with no timetable racks, no ticket office and few signs directing passengers to the SEPTA trains below, as opposed to AMTRAK and transit which both have their own ticket booths and schedule racks. Was told by a Trenton Police Officer (many around due to the horror in Madrid) that there were TVM's on the platforms. Went down to buy a ticket and you guessed it, all were out of service!
The four car train left Trenton at 11:47 AM and was allready half full. By the time we made it to Center City the train had many standees, due to the Flower Show's last day and their St Patricks Day Parade. Why couldn't SEPTA run longer trains if they knew that there were going to be extra riders? This is exactly the type of thing that repels people from riding transit. Asked the conductor when was the last time the machines worked and he told me that he hasn't collected a penalty fare in over a year! He added that morale was low and he hoped that his fellow employees would go out on strike even though Regional Rail is covered under a different contract.
Wow, riverton must have a really low high school or graduation graduation rate. They calculated the costs per passenger to the penny before even seeing the opening days numbers. I never learned that in school!!!! I'm sure if zero people rode the train it would costs taxpayers zero dollars too! I'm not even going to get into how much taxpayers pay to bail out the slums....
*A young lady sitting behind me told her husband/boyfriend "I hate these people". She proceeded over to the still open door and shouted, "you people are a bunch of assholes, the train goes through your town and you have the nerve to call it the train to nowhere, then how do you like LIVING in nowhere? you must not be very proud of your town". Just abou everone, including me, cheered for her show of gumption to the forces of NIMBYism. She reminded me of the former Mrs Booge in her straight foward style!*
You gotta get me this chicks autograph. With my overanalyizing everything, I would've never thought to say that. Dang it. I'm impressed.
The line crosses Crosswicks Creek in Bordentown prior to entering Trenton. If it crossed the Delaware River, it would be in Pennsylvania.
railroad bridge over Delaware River
All in all, this puts The Garden State way ahead of the Empire State in planning for the future. I'm still amazed at the thought of it happening. It's like a movie or something...all those towns, abandoned by passenger trains...slowly falling into "less vigorous states of being" as a result of this withdrawal...sleepy main streets...vacant storefronts...but WAIT! What's that I see coming down along the riverside? Why, it's a train, comin' to the rescue!! And be danged, look, the streets' looking better already. Look at all those storefronts opening up again! People gettin' off the trains, going shopping, hitting the movies, restaurants, jobs, homes. Place is hopping.
That sounds like a drunken screed, maybe, but how many towns along how many rivers are looking on with great envy? Plenty, I'd guess.
Scroll Down
Hey LIRR?
Remember.
-Chris
That might be what's going on with "The Map." (Or maybe someone just got sloppy.)
This error has been noted before.
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=661314
I don't have a Feb 2004 MTA map. Course I'll probably pick one up Thursday, since I think I'll be heading up that way (or I'll just sleep all day, it's the first day of spring break!)
In UK train drivers carry ball-point pens in their breast pockets commensurate with the number of "Kills" they have had while driving.
Like medals. I thought this story was b.s. too but it was confirmed by two separate train driving Rugby-mates.
It doesn't sound true. Could it be?
-Chris
Salso, what I would do with the switch (the way the whole structure swings made me worry about going over it when it moved too, when I saw the Wild Asia ride), would be to add rails on the side which would add more support, and could function as the switch at junctions. (the guideway would briefly end at those points, and the rails would be more heavily supported. Then, you could take regular cars or minivans, outfit them with special flange wheels, and run them on the line!
I find it funny how the monorail is contrasted with "garden light rail" instead of a garden railroad. I have not heard of too many garden railroads that have streetcars on them . . .
*ding dong* doors closing:
"Next stop, tool shed station"
http://www.transitgallery.com/showpic.php?uuid=14&aid=234&pid=8929
"Ladies and gentlemen, for the safety and convenience of all MTA customers and employees, please do not urinate or defecate between the cars, or in train crew areas."
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Of course no politician considered calling in the private sector to help. I assume it never crossed their minds, because most people assume things like mass transit are services only the government can deliver. I assumed only the government could dig subway tunnels, yet years after I came to New York, I was surprised built New York first subway line and ran them until the 1940s. The City only took over after it had bankrupted the private line refusing to allow them to rise the "five cent fare."
I believe he is off somewhat. From what I understand the IRT BMT subway lines were built by the city but operated by the private companies. The only privately built subway lines in New York are the PATH lines. Of course if he is talk about els that are now part of the subway system then he is right
Paul: I remember when it was still possible to see the turnouts for the Lexington Av El. However I was out there a few years ago and the steel has apparently been replaced. There is no trace of the turnouts even from the street. Jeff Rosen mentioned this also.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Yeah, I remember that, too. If fact you could see evidence of almost all connections everywhere. One of the biggest things I miss about the Myrt is that we lost the visible connections to the 5th Avenue L, Lex, and even the Park!
But I wonder what the story is with the Lex connection to Broadway. How come that was so completely rebuilt that all traces of the connection are gone? I can't think of anywhere else they did that.
Subwayman: I went out there a few years ago after Jeff Rosen reported that there was no longer any trace of the turnout. I looked at the structure from above and below and its seems as though all the turnout steelwork has been replaced with straight girders. The only thing that might hint at a turnout is one slighly off-center upright pillar on the southwest corner where the cross-girder is a little wider than the others.
Larry, RedbirdR33
By the way:
Of course a Manhattan train might have just left the station, or the Myrt could have een running late, but it is interesting nonetheless.
Elais
subfan
Yup, and also remember that there was no track connection between the Myrtle El and the Broadway el at that time either. There was no way for an train to come from Central (Evergreen AVe), turn onto Broadway and continue towards the WillyB as today's M does. So passengers from the WillyB bound for points towards Metro Ave had to get off at Myrtle and go upstairs (which could be what many of those passengers are, depending on the time of day the photo was taken.
I wonder which line was busier, the Myrtle or the Broadway. My guess would be the Myrtle as you observed, because as paul said, the Broadway el only went to Williamsburg and then Essex-Delancey, and there wasn't and IND to transfer there to either! The Myrtle also went to Park Row, and Downtown Brooklyn, so it had actually better more popular destinations than the Broadway el's destinations.
See here for a photo from "Old Brooklyn in Early Photographs" (another great book to own) that shows the Myrtle Ave station much further east than the current one that replaced it. The extreme right of the photo is actually the current location of the "M train Curve" before it was built! The building on the left is the infamous "abandoned building" that had been abandoned for at least 50 years, and just now again is inhabited.
Anyone know when the Myrtle to Broadway "M train curve" was built and first put to use?
(You'll need to scroll all the way down... I have no idea why the WebBBS script is inserting this huge gap between the text and the table. Nothing I do seems to affect it.)Car Class
Division
Unit Numbers Manufacturer
Years Built (Overhauled)Spotter's Guide (i.e., what
to look for)
R32 / R32a
BMT/IND
3350-3949
Budd / Budd
1964
(1988-1990)
Oldest cars currently in service on system, with squared "tool shed" look. Corrugated exterior siding extends all the way to roofline.
R38
BMT/IND
3950-4149
St. Louis Car Co.
1966-1967
(1987-1988)
Similar to R32, but corrugated exterior siding extends only to bottom of windows.
R40
BMT/IND
4150-4449
St. Louis Car Co.
1968-1969
(1987-1988)
Distinctive slanted ends.
R40M
BMT/IND
4450-4549
St. Louis Car Co.
1969
(1987-1988)
Similar exterior as R40 above, but with quot;standard" ends similar to newer BMT/IND cars.
R42
BMT/IND
4550-4949
St. Louis Car Co.
1969-1970
(1988-1989)
Similar body shape as R44/46/68, but 60' long with corrugated siding below windows. Typically found on Eastern Division routes.
R44
BMT/IND/SIRT
5202-5479
(SIRT: 388-466)
St. Louis Car Co.
1971-1973
75' length, wood-panel and cream-colored interior panels, electronic LCD side destination signs, painted area at belt where blue stripe used to be. Earliest cars to use two-tone door chime.
R46
BMT/IND
4852-6258
Pullman
1974-1975
Virtually identical to R44 above. Look for Pullman builder's plates.
R62
IRT
1301-1625
Kawasaki
1983-1985
Oldest cars now in use on the IRT division. Stainless steel interiors, similar in design as R68 interiors.
R62a
IRT
1651-2475
Bombardier
1984-1987
Very similar to R62 above. Look for Bombardier builder's plates.
R68
BMT/IND
2500-2924
Westinghouse-Amrail
1986-1988
75' length. Similar in exterior shape as R42/44/46, but with stainless steel interiors similar to R62.
R68a
BMT/IND
5001-5200
Kawasaki
1988-1989
Very similar to R68 above. Look for Kawasaki builder's plates.
R142
IRT
1101-1250, 6301-7180
Bombardier
1999-2003
First "new tech" cars on IRT, with electronic signage and announcements, and distinctive "tri-tone" AC propulsion sound.
R142a
IRT
7211-7810
Kawasaki
1996-2004
Very similar to R142 above. Look for Kawasaki builder's plates and listen for AC propulsion sound similar to R143.
R143
BMT/IND
8101-8312
Kawasaki
2001-2002
67' length. First "new tech" cars on BMT/IND. Similar interiors as R142/R142a. Currently only used on (L) and (M) shuttle routes.
Of particular interest to me are tips on how to tell the similar cars apart from each other, aside from looking at the builder's plates. Examples include the R44/R46, R62/R62a, R68/R68a, and R142/R142a.
Have fun...
-- David
Brooklyn, NY
R-44 has a painted carbon steel beltline.
R-46 has a stainless steel beltline.
R-62 = 1301-1625
R-62A = 1651-2475
R-68 = 2500-2924, usually bright and clean (on the outside)
R-68A = 5001-5200, usually dull and filthy (on the outside)
R-142 = smooth side
R-142A = raised stainless steel beltline
Hmm, well since both are on the 4 lets try that one.
Check out the Master LED signs: R-142 is Deep Red (more visible to naked eye, invisible to film camera). R-142A is Orangey Red (hard on naked eye, viewable to film camera).
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
What you all mean is "narrow fluting" on R-40Ms, also inverted (depressed) belt line (which was also once blue, BTW.).
R-42 has wide fluting and no belt line.
The end caps are also different in subtle ways, but most folks wouldn't notice that.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
1: Rollsign font. R-62A is bigger and wider, especially noticeable on the 3. 'Course, the Livonia R-62As' "3" rollsigns have now faded to a pinkish red.
2: Check the bottom of the end pantograph gates. R-62s were delivered without a bottom "tip" (flat bottom) and a very narrow onw was welded on early in the game (1985-86) to prevent the gates from tangling on curve elevations. R-62As were delivered with full size gates including ride-over tips at both end which are of matching width.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
The reason for the space between your text and the table is all of the carriage returns in the table.
Car ClassDivisionUnit Numbers ManufacturerYears Built (Overhauled)Spotter's Guide (i.e., whatto look for)R32 / R32aBMT/IND3350-3949Budd / Budd1964
(1988-1990)Oldest cars currently in service on system, with squared "tool shed" look. Corrugated exterior siding extends all the way to roofline.R38BMT/IND3950-4149St. Louis Car Co.1966-1967
(1987-1988)Similar to R32, but corrugated exterior siding extends only to bottom of windows.R40BMT/IND4150-4449St. Louis Car Co.1968-1969
(1987-1988)Distinctive slanted ends.R40MBMT/IND4450-4549St. Louis Car Co.1969
(1987-1988)Similar exterior as R40 above, but with quot;standard" ends similar to newer BMT/IND cars.R42BMT/IND4550-4949St. Louis Car Co.1969-1970
(1988-1989)Similar body shape as R44/46/68, but 60' long with corrugated siding below windows. Typically found on Eastern Division routes.R44BMT/IND/SIRT5202-5479
(SIRT: 388-466)St. Louis Car Co.1971-197375' length, wood-panel and cream-colored interior panels, electronic LCD side destination signs, painted area at belt where blue stripe used to be. Earliest cars to use two-tone door chime.R46BMT/IND4852-6258Pullman1974-1975Virtually identical to R44 above. Look for Pullman builder's plates.R62IRT1301-1625Kawasaki1983-1985Oldest cars now in use on the IRT division. Stainless steel interiors, similar in design as R68 interiors.R62aIRT1651-2475Bombardier1984-1987Very similar to R62 above. Look for Bombardier builder's plates.R68BMT/IND2500-2924Westinghouse-Amrail1986-198875' length. Similar in exterior shape as R42/44/46, but with stainless steel interiors similar to R62.R68aBMT/IND5001-5200Kawasaki1988-1989Very similar to R68 above. Look for Kawasaki builder's plates.R142IRT1101-1250, 6301-7180Bombardier1999-2003First "new tech" cars on IRT, with electronic signage and announcements, and distinctive "tri-tone" AC propulsion sound.R142aIRT7211-7810Kawasaki1996-2004Very similar to R142 above. Look for Kawasaki builder's plates and listen for AC propulsion sound similar to R143.R143BMT/IND8101-8312Kawasaki2001-200267' length. First "new tech" cars on BMT/IND. Similar interiors as R142/R142a. Currently only used on (L) and (M) shuttle routes.
John
Copy and paste the HTML code into a text editor (like Notepad). Turn the word wrap off. Scroll down to the end of the document, and use the following key sequence:
[END][DELETE][Up Arrow]
It's important to use the [DELETE] key, as the [BACKSPACE] key won't work. Repeat the process until you have one line of text. Then, copy and paste that one line into the Message section of teh response form here. I know it's a bit lengthy if you have a large table, but it works!
That's more like it. The HTML code for a table has to be entered as if it were all in one line. Here's a simple procedure that would help.
Copy and paste the HTML code into a text editor (like Notepad). Turn the word wrap off. Scroll down to the end of the document, and use the following key sequence:
[END][DELETE][Up Arrow]
It's important to use the [DELETE] key, as the [BACKSPACE] key won't work. Repeat the process until you have one line of text. Then, copy and paste that one line into the Message section of teh response form here. I know it's a bit lengthy if you have a large table, but it works!
This is a trick that I did not know, Thanks. I did it the hard way. Back space at beginning of each line.
John
-- David
Brooklyn, NY
R40M's have thin corrugated sidings (to window frames), while R42 has much thicker corrugated sidings.
R-62As, sidesign readings take up two lines each.
other differences exist but I'm too lazy to think of them now (they are saved in my mind mentally)
http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?bn=03054
Guilty until proven innocent ... so where's the SUBWAYS for upstate so we don't HAVE to drive, moron? :(
They are effectily lowering the blood alcohol level to Zero. I sure the Restaurant Assoc will be strong supporters!
It's time for us to demand drug testing of our politicos ... and as to Mr. Ortiz, I'd say psychiatric observation. Maybe I'd feel different if the STATE paid for the car modifications, but I can't pay my taxes as it is. Sure can't pay THAT. And it's not like there's any buses or trains to ride around HERE. Maybe his constituents in Brooklyn might buy *US* a subway. Can anyone tell me what this deekwad's been smoking and can anybody get *me* a bag of it? :)
Obviously Mr. Ortiz knows nothing about asthma and other breathing "disorders".
I thought the QUACK epidemic was over. Clearly not. I tell ya, folks upstate are ready to SPIT we're so angry at this guy. And this ain't his FIRST encounter with the quack pipe either. It's ONE thing to go after offenders - but to go after the innocent law abiding public with a bill like this is just INSANE. AND there's actually enough votes to PASS this thing. :(
Don't get me wrong ... if we *HAD* "public transportation" here, the car would be garaged - I'd RATHER ride a bus than drive though a TRAIN would be even sweeter. Then again, THIS is the bribone who took out Bob Diamond's trolley and other dubious political gasbaggery ... 51st AD Brooklyn ... if you live HERE, he's YOUR malfunction and requires some hospitalization ...
It's time for the ANOINTED to take a trip downtown and whiz in the Snapple bottle. :(
Of COURSE you can live without a car or "bear the costs" if you live on the FOURTH AVENUE SUBWAY LINE ... it's a WHOLE different story if there's no subway (or BUS) where YOU live ... detestable MORON. And what gets ME is that the Assembly HAS the votes lined up to PASS this sumbitch ...
And I thought ASHCROFT with his "Vamanos Guantanamo" nonsense was out of line ... now the DUMMYCRAPS are trying to OUTDO him with "Guilty until sentenced to death." I'm so honked off, I just might VOTE for Shrub since the DEMOCRAPS ARE WORSE!!!!!! :(
A drunk Democrat is better than a sober Republican.
I want a president, that if he lies to me, I can feel good about it.
We NEED a regeme change. I'd like an Adminstration that doesn't try to monkey with the Bill of Rights or the whole damn Contitution every other week and isn't joined at the hip with the oil intrests.
Plus, as an ardent supporter of rail, the Dem's is right on point.
Pardon me if I don't buy ONE "skull and bones" Yalie over another in the upcoming ERECTION of the "bought and sold" in that "mark of the devil" style ... STILL ... I live by the realities of Alexander Tyler, in his 1770 book, 'Cycle of Democracy' ... (google the quote - Unca Selkirk NEVER asks you to take MY word - I give links to LOOK IT UP!) - screw me ... the TRUTH is OUT there ... all you need is independent thought to google the QUESTION ...
But yeah, crooks at the helm ... like I've often said - the REPUBLICANS steal from the till ... so do the DEMOCRATS ... only difference is the DEMOCRATS spread it AROUND a little. :)
But as far as "regime change" goes with the EROSION of our REPUBLICAN LIBERTIES, I'd vote for HITLER at this point ... HITLER would be an improvement over the COUP D'ETAT we've been under for the last near-four years ... :(
But that's just me ... no terrorists HERE. :-\
On the other hand, I'm sure you've traveled late at night through lots of small upstate towns and found that the only place where cars were parked was in front of the bar.
Outrageous, impractical, and unfair as Mr. Ortiz's proposal is, it would actually save a lot of lives, say compared to the suggestions about slowing down before entering a train station that have been posted here.
I'm not in favor of the idea, but it would have a sizeable impact, at least until people figured out how to disconnect the gadgets.
Because it keeps drunks off the road, or because it keeps cars off the road whose owners can't afford the retro-fit?
Where's my damned SUBWAY? :(
I recall a mailing from Mothers Against Drunk Driving that suggested that convicted DWIs have their licenses revoked permanently. Unfortunately, society seems to "tolerate" drunk driving.
- DWIs can rehabilitate themselves by coing to classes.
- States consider allowing DWIs to continue driving for "essential" purposes, like going to work (of course, when we build communities where you can't walk or take transit, driving is "essential.")
- People think they can fix this with a gadget (which may work for alcohol, but is useless against other impairments. BTW, you've heard of designated drivers. Coming soon; "designated breathers.")
- Most importantly, we have thousands of bars where the only way to get there and back is to drive!
I recall an article saying that courts are soft on DWIs, because "everyone" does it sometime. For the record, I've _never_ done it and intend to never do it.
IMHO, convicted DWIs should be tried by jury, jailed for a short but significant period and permanently banned from all driving.
This thing won't fly, but Ortiz can report back to his constituents that he pushed for a bill. I believe that this is common in politics.
Nah, screw that; they'll all move to Brooklyn. Brooklyn don't need more drunkards. Instead, howzabout we tie those convicted onto the front of subway trains. Give `em a nice tour of the system. At least two round trips of any line. Carrying a nice big sign saying something like "Caught driving drunk"
And the peckerhead got even MORE camera time up here today, fretting about what DVD's people own. Doesn't Brooklyn have any *real* problems for this gato to solve somewhere? :(
(Not that, intrinsically, politicians are scum; the human animal is a cantankerous bastard. Us trying to govern us is a sure pathway to madness. So I give `em that due at least.)
For some reason I'm reminded of the "summer of love" we had in Bensonhurst after a kid got shot on 20th Avenue. The politicians came a callin' into my `hood. You'da thought b'hoist was South Africa or something, the way the good folk were lambasted ad infinitum. It was dismaying to say the least. Cat's gettin' offed every other day jes' a few neighborhoods over, but THOSE hits didn't matter. I guess cause they were, uh, "kept in the family". But the politicos saw blood and dug deeply. Including that portly phuh-kr wit' his busloads of "righteously indignant folk" coming to march up what one newspaper assininely referred to as "...a broad boulevard...". Uh, 20th Ave. Now, it was a peaceful place to live, by and large. Most of the time, the only murders you heard about were some jamoche found in a car along the Belt. Quietly done, involving only the folks involved, debts paid. No random incidents, no kids getting hit by crossfire. But very few of the "P" people ever spoke up in favor of Bensonhurst. Yet, it was a place where if your Grandmaw lived there alone, you wouldn't be sweating it. How many neighborhoods could say that?
But then we've got el grande pendecho. :(
Our very own Silver man.
Yay me!
Mark
Last week I wrote a letter to the Piladelphia Inquirer about a transit story they ran on March 7, and it got printed yesterday.
Here's the link. Scroll down to the heading "Hole in Transit Plans."
Yay me!
Mark
I used to live in NE Philly, and trust me, current service is full of flaws. Just try getting home when those wonderful connecting buses only run every half hour after a certain time at night. A lot of those buses are also packed to the gills at rush hour, too, pushing the limits of what bus service can carry.
Mark
It's not the east-west buses I'm talking about: It's the north-south routes that left me out in the cold with their long headways after teh evening rush hour. Of course,the east-west routes are even worse. A subway woudl hav ehelped because the station woudl have bene close enough to my house that I wouldnt' have needed an connecting bus.
As for artics, yes, they should be used. The 18 already does, but no others, oddly.
Mark
http://www.nycsubway.org/cars/retiredfleet.html
Yesterday's poll: Do you feel safe riding New York City subways?
Results:
Yes - 53%
No - 47%
In other amNewYork news, the editorial cartoon on page 10 of today's edition shows a steam locomotive with the wheel configuration of 6-8-2, with the "2" being a bus (boo) style tax-axle in the up position. Is that crazy or what?
You can read today's edition by going here and downloading the PDF.
The loco also has no smokestack. Someone ought to offer Bill Schnorr a gentle lesson in steam loco design. To be kind, perhaps he's too young to remember the??
Bill "Newkirk"
I vaguely recall hearing on WTOP when I was driving in to Baltimore Friday night about a broken rail on the K Route Orange Line in Virginia that caused the delays.
John
http://www.usatoday.com/news/snapshot.htm?section=N&label=2004-03-16-fly.jpg
47% Flying
38% Driving
13% Bus
2% Train
You would figure Amtrak and other rail lines would take advantage of this fact but I doubt it. I find it strange that 13% would think the bus is stressful?
Mark
It was kind of fun leaving at 4:45 AM from Philadelphia the time I did that. The bus was already filled with people from New York so I almost didn't get a seat. But the 4 hour transfer in Harrisburg was a pain.
That's why I say they should charter some train for Thanksgiving, Christmas and Spring Breaks if anything else. The regions full of tracks. COME ON!
And oh yeah. Fullington doesn't have a website, and Greyhound can't always post all Fullington trips on their website. So I never know when certain buses are actually scheduled for. Including the daily bus that goes up to Wilkes Barre.
As for chartering a train, I don't know where the closest tracks are that go anywhere useful. I heard about some up in Bellefonte or Pleasant Gap where there was a derailment, but I didn't think they came southwest of Rockview Prison. If so, that would require a CATA trip for everyone, which would still be a pain. And I don't know how easily those tracks get to the main Keystone line to Harrisburg and Pittsburgh.
Anyone ever wonder why *I* love AMTRAK? I've been in THREE bus crashes, *ALL* of them with MULTIPLE FATALITIES ... I've also been in two PLANE crashes, both relatively minor, but injured pretty seriously in one, minor in the other.
I've been in ONE trainwreck, and I was in the cab when that happened. Caused injuries that eventually lost me two teeth, but that's it. I'll take the TRAIN, thank you. ESPECIALLY if *I* drive. :)
If I'm plane or a bus and see you there, I'm getting off!
: )
Mark
For anyone who cares, it was a D train, and I got to layup a SERIOUSLY bad-ordered train to CIY ... it was 10 cars of arnines that had "brake problems" but of course nobody told ME ... had brakes all the way through Stillwell. Wasn't until I was on the ladder at 3 MPH, took the call-on and applied and NOTHING ... WHAM!
If you're on a TRAIN with me, you is SAFE! Especially if I'm in the cab and it ain't B/O (love the same representing "Bus Operator" - it FITS) ...
All THREE bus crashes were Gray Running Mutt ... plane crashes were an Allegheny landing at La Guardia - "flat tire on landing, skidded off the runway and INTO the water" and the other (less serious) was a TWA to Providence, RI where we smashed into the terminal owing to a brake failure (hmmmmm ...).
Amtrak? I *love* AMTRAK ... all the accidents happen on the ground. :)
Yeah, I laughed at the poker face myself - but I've ALWAYS taken "hundreds of tons of rolling steel" seriously. When you've DONE schoolcar, you just can't get over those "training films" ... screw with a TRAIN (INSIDE or out) the train ALWAYS wins ...
But folks HERE would probably get a real hoot out of seeing me in "RECENT revenue" motorman duty ... heh.
But LGA has a lot longer runways than the Smallbany county airport. Like I said, if Amtrak goes there, no problem - otherwise it's by CAR.
Not quite. ALB has two runways, both 7,200 feet in length, while LGA's two runways are 7,000 feet each.
But yeah, Dog from NYC to Syracuse, Back of a truck (2 killed) - Dog from Albany to Springfield, MA, Back of a truck (16 killed) - Dog from Albany to Buffalo, down an embankment (4 killed). 5 drowned on first flight, nobody dead on the other. Arnine collision - one injured - me. Treated and Released with lacerations from the cab glass, concussion.
Trains WILL stop if they HAVE a brake stand actually DOING a reduction. In MY case, it was supposedly a bad "O ring" in the stand that prevented the application ... and when you LAP nothing, you GET nothing. :(
Come FLY with me, come fly, let's get away (Frank Sinatra tune) ... :)
Mark
DRIVE or be disciplined for insubordination ... AIN'T no rules. Even TRUCKERS have to fill out "comic books" and observe "hours of service" ... ain't enforced in the BUS industry. :(
"In April 2000, the U.S. Department of Transportation fined Blue & White Lines $90,000 after federal and state investigators discovered the company violated several safety regulations on its buses. They found mechanical defects such as damaged axle parts, worn tires, unsecured brake hoses and brakes that were not aligned."
The other was after a UConn-Yale game in New Haven in 1977 during my college days.
You got a point. He's got a better chance at survival than a Black Box!!!
I'll second that! Most people can travel intensely their whole lives and never be in a crash of a bus or plane in regular revenue service. $10 charters to Atlantic City and private aviation are another matter, but the gray dog and the scheduled airlines are actually pretty safe, say compared with a car.
: )
Mark
<<<<
Good one.. I second the motion! ;-)
This is horrible. Were these New York City buses???
You've got a better chance of winning LOTTO than winning the "bus game" ("Guess the psychosis of your seatmate") ... and THEN they pee on ya. :(
I've done one long distance bus trip, back in '76 (rt NYC - Lake George). 28 years later, I still haven't figured out my setamate's psychosis - and he was (is) my brother.
Elias
I work out of my HOME here - we live upstairs, company is DOWNstairs. Oy, the COMMUTE! When I worked for the state, Nancy took me into work and picked me up after work - there's NO parking in the Empire State Submarine pen unless you KILL a Rockefeller appointee ... so with no place to put the car, it was like that. NOW ... I could care, aside from the trip to the stupidmarket, the beer distributor or a doctor's appointment ... I'd drive though sometimes to work at the state and park in a "peripheral lot" out of town and take the bus here and there. But I never WAS a good driver, so Nancy gets to do it since she's OK at it. I ain't.
Doesn't MATTER to our INSURANCE COMPANY though that the car does UNDER 100 miles in a YEAR ... we have to pay for FELIX ORTIZ's CHOP SHOPS and the insurance is a KILLER. But as to driving, I'm no damned good at it. "Driving a train" is different - no "skillful steering" required - know how to apply power, and KNOW how to brake and as long as you're NOT on the ground, steering is no problem. :)
Lemme put it THIS way ... I've put in FIVE TIMES as many miles in locomotives as I have driving a car. :)
The biggest problem with hound is that management or dispatch treats the drivers like robots, which is why so many doze off.
You wouldn't mind forwarding me your upcoming travel schedule, would you? I'm trying to plan my calendar for April and May today and would like to steer as far clear of anywhere you're going as possible!!!
CG
No experiences lately where time from leaving home until plane takes off is 2 hours or more, much of it standing?
Two hours would be cutting it WAY too close. I'm one of these strange people who likes to arrive at the airport hours before my flight. I'll read for a while, spot planes if there's a decent view, people-watch a little, basically just do not much of anything. The idea of rushing to the airport just in time to catch my flight sounds totally bad.
Mark
Back in 1997, I had a ~90-minute layover in St.Louis while flying to Nebraska. It was a very frustrating experience. MetroLink runs right into the terminal at STL, but I didn't have quite enough time to risk a ride on it.
Mark
I arrived at MIA last week for a 11 AM flight at 8:30 AM and pretty much wanted to kill myself by the time they started boarding the plane.
CG
Now, add darkness, 30MPH winds, icy roads, and horizontal blizzard conditions and (alleged) 75mph speed limits...
Welcome to North Dakota!
Elias
A agree. I would have put driving at the very top of the list. Reason being, everyone on the Parkway is doing 70 MPH and I hate to keep up at that speed. The Belt Parkway with all those turns and dips is a white knuckle ride.
No, it's not. I am one of those people who go 80 on it. I prefer roads like the New Jersey Turnpike because I can go 110.
Parkway without a name before it refers to the Garden State Parkway (unless you're in Pittsburgh or something).
City or commuter busses... no stress...
Cross Country bus... very stressful:
Narrow uncomfortable seating, wierd co-passengers, rushed meal stops greasyspoon diners...
Elias
At least in my experience in Manhattan:
All the crowding of the subway at rush hour.
Far more lurching than any subway ever does, resulting in a feeling your arm is not really in its socket any more.
All the speed of a pleasant walk.
I've ridden Bonanza once, pretty nice ride, D-bury to PABT.
I've also done Greyhound NYC-BOS probably 10 or 12 times now. Everytime we get held up in NYC on the return trip, but still, it's faster than NYCT bus.
NYCT Bus AND LIB: Can be stressful from overcrowding, people who dont know how to move out of the way, flagging, lateness, slow drivers, loud passengers, bus preachers, rap performances, missing a connecting bus, big headways and bus bunching.
NYCT Bus(extra credit): Can be stressful from extremely slow progress along the route, along with extremly long red lights.
I find that they can be VERY stressful, especially in cities to which I am not accustomed: working out where to get off is the big problem, followed by decoding some of the awful bus maps out there to work out where the bus is going in the first place.
Here in Leicester, UK, I usually find that it's quicker to walk when I'm in a rush rather than risk unreliable long headways in slow traffic.
Cross Country bus... very stressful:
As long as you're travelling with one other person, these don't tend to be so bad.
Bill "Newkirk"
NYCT Bus AND LIB: Can be stressful from overcrowding, people who dont know how to move out of the way, flagging, lateness, slow drivers, loud passengers, bus preachers, rap performances, missing a connecting bus, big headways and bus bunching.
NYCT Bus(extra credit): Can be stressful from extremely slow progress along the route, along with extremly long red lights.
My own ranking from most to least stressful is
1. Bus (intercity it's the weirdo factor, intracity it's the mind-boggling slowness)
2. Driving
3. Plane (but I only have stress when I have to fly with an infrequent flyer -- or if the TSA decides that they really want to sniff the inside of my shoes)
4. Train (if it's reasonably convenient, I'm in!)
CG
I would think that flying & driving should swap positions. I think driving is far worse all around but the long waits in line at airports and long travel times on airplanes justify that. I see why buses would have 13%, mainly b/c of slow buses, infrequency [dpeneds on location/density] and gridlock but then on trains I would of thought that it would be a little higher.
Driving in NYC- traffic nightmares and loooooong traffic lights combined with crazy or slow drivers not to mention suicide pedestrians is enough to make you go crazy.
NYC BUS: Nightmare traffic, suicide pedestrians, people who do not know the meaning of "Move to the back of the bus", weirdos, no HVAC on Queens Surface corp buses. Sloooooooooooooooooooooooooooooowwwwwww
NYC buses. Bus stops ever block or so.
Intercity bus: Weirdo factor, smelly restroom factor. Crazy seatmate factor, no-leg-room factor. Eating all greasy foods at rest stops.
SCT bus: 70MPH operation, car-like acceleration, 3 miles between bus stops (most are patches of dirt on the side of the road).
Plane: TSA factor, digital camera stolen once. Once, we're in the air view was niiiiiice
Train: Nice and smooth. then again you have the LIRR DM30 factor but that is another story.
They do, to the best that their budget allows. Unless you have another way to make a better national rail system on a mere $1 billion on average every year? Let's hear it then . . .
And which "other rail lines" are you talking about? If they don't have the money to spend, then nothing can be "taken advantage of".
The stress of connecting is greater in air travel because I often have to rush from one end of a mile-long airport to another to make the connection, while train stations are much more compact, lessening layover anxieties.
For me personally there is the added stress of airsickness. I also don't respond well to the cabin air pressure in commercial aircraft. Or the stale air itself for that matter.
All these things make air travel much more stressful than rail travel for me.
Mark
One thing that's made flying easier is the introduction of self-service kiosks for check-in at many airports. Long lines at the counters may someday be a thing of the past, though that's a while off.
As for security, while it's a bit tough for me to say this as I generally support private businesses over government, it looks as if the TSA has done a remarkably good job. Security seems to be a much quicker and easier process these days.
Hopefully the sheep will still wait in the line for the counter instead of making me wait at the checkout computer.
The last time I flew (on Delta), I checked in online the morning of the flight and printed out the boarding pass. There was no line for bag checking for people who checked in online/used the kiosks. In true Nelson Muntz fashion, I got to laugh at all the sheep waiting in line.
I also zoomed through the metal detector because I knew where all my metal was and I left all my change at home.
The biggest "offenders" in terms of setting off airport metal detectors are women's bras (seriously) :)
Your experience is typical and very ocmmon.
But the last time I flew EVERYBODY had to wait on a security line that took 90 minutes.
If you have a discount ticket (and most are these days) and miss your plane, you may have to pay a lot of extra money. Therefore, you have to budget enough time to wait for the 99th percentile of security line. Most of the time you breeze right through and cool your heels for an hour or more at the gate.
On a lighter note, why does turbulance feel like the plane is driving over potholes? It's so bad, it's exactly like a dirt road after a rain. They need to pave those air corridors better, gimme HSR!
And as Pig and Peter mentioned, the self check in made may wait time less than a minute for the last 4 plane trips I have been on recently. I may consider train for Boston or Washington, but anything further away that that - never.
If America ever gets real HSR, trains would be competitive with planes over longer distances. Maybe not NYC to California, but NYC to Florida might be a different story.
I'm halfway disappointed with SEHSR though, all those corridors are merely upgrades with speeds of 80-120mph. 120 is nice and all, being it's almost twice the legal limit sometimes, but still.
Flying is a pain in the ass with all the check-in time and security balls and losing sight of your luggage. All this is compounded when you are trying to fly to or from a South European airport where the general airline habit of being a pain combined with a manana mentality leads to utter chaos.
Driving would be perfect, were it not for the other idiots on the road. Rather like living in an asylum then.
Buses take some getting used to to cope with their erratic behaviour, their ability to get delayed, and not quite being able to work out where to get off.
Trains are by far the easiest form of transport to use. Apart from Eurostar, they are utterly hassle-free. My one gripe is that they share one of the problems of buses in that 2+2 and 2+3 seating layouts can land you sitting next to a yob with a loud stereo eating smelly food. I would love to see the lower density 2+2 replaced by 1+3, and the higher density 2+3 replaced by the ultimate in high density - seats along the sides with plenty of room to stand in the middle.
I speak from experience. A while back, I travelled cross country from New York to Los Angelos via Dallas on Continental Trailways. Those who remember Continental Trailways will realize this is a couple of decades ago.
The equipment was a 48 seat Eagle (probably and Eagle 05) with tight seating and a virtually unusable bathroom.
Here's a partial list of things that were a problem:
* super tight seating
* bouncy unstable suspension
* high winds causing the nose of the Eagle to veer off leading the driver to make jerky corrective moves
* vents at the edge of the window that constantly blasting cool air no matter the conditions inside or out
* rest stops with food you wouldn't serve to a rat
* wierd people who have an urge to talk to strangers
It took 4 nights and 3 days to cross country. I will never do it by bus again.
* possible to move around from one car to the next by train to stretch legs - no way on the bus
* most long distance trains have a diner - not normal for the bus
* trains are alot faster on most corriders than the bus
* scenic ride is more likely by train than bus - i.e. buses run on interstates and trains run through the countryside
* sleepers on long distance trains - buses offer reclining seats at best
Advantages of bus over train:
* route flexibility
* typically less expensive
On balance - I'll take the train any day.
Wash - New Haven only. Even for NY-Albany.
Rest of the country (inter-city), with a few exceptions, the bus is usually faster.
So let's look at the schedules (keeping in mind that both bus and train are frequently late and miss their schedules)
Train is faster than bus according to published shedules (Amtrak or MNCR & Greyhound) in the following areas:
Northeast Corridor (train always beats bus in Northeast Corridor)
Empire Corridor (NY - Poughkeepsie, NY Albany)
Chicago to LA (Train - 43 hrs - fastest bus - 42 hrs.)
New York to Orlando (21 hrs via Silver Meteor - fastest bus 23 hrs.)
Keystone Corridor (Train 3 hours 43 minutes - fastest bus 4 hrs. 15 min.)
Oakland to Bakersfield (Train 6 hrs. 6 min. Bus 7 hrs. 20 mins.)
Buses are faster between Boston and Portland (Downeaster route)
San Francisco and Chicago
Buses and trains tie on San Diego to LA
I don't have time for more comparisons.
But in sum, it seems to me as I said before that on most routes even outside the Northeast Corridor, trains remain faster than buses.
BUT - buses typically have more frequent service than trains outside of commuter territory and outside Northeast Corridor.
You say you got these from the schedules. I've found amtrak schedules have almost no padding for delay or w/e, while greyhound schedules have a tremendous amount of extra time added.
Personal experiences are fine - but by their nature are from a sample experienced by only one person and therefore are not the best way to judge things.
Regarding padding - both Greyhound and Amtrak pad their schedules. That's a fact. And again, I can prove it.
Example - Amtrak pads the schedule for the Lake Shore Limited by 13 minutes from Croton Harmon to Penn. Check the schedule and you'll find that it takes the Lake Shore Limited 13 minutes longer to reach Penn from Croton Harmon than it does to go from Penn to Croton Harmon. This is certainly not the only instance of padding by Amtrak. I just don't want to take the time to research a big list.
More on padding: Extremely early arrivals (i.e. one hour early) mean one of the following:
* Prior stops were also arrived at and departed from too early and so passengers missed either the bus or train because the driver or engineer didn't wait until the correct departure time OR
* Traffic is very unpredictable and sometimes causes the much later arrival time (not as likely by train) OR
* The schedule was put together in the absence of experience that would show the travel time to be one hour less than scheduled.
As for travel times to Boston by bus - if the bus is taking either 95 or running via 84 - both roads are subject to heavy delays at rush hour. They are also notoriously delayed on Summer weekends.
One last example here - scheduled running times from New York to Boston on weekdays:
Greyhound - Run 1854 is a non-stop from New York to Boston and is Greyhound's fastest run on weekday afternoons. It leaves at 4:30PM and arrives at 8:50PM. Travel time is 4 hrs. 20 mins.
Amtrak Acela Run 2168 is a multi stop train from NY to Boston - one of Amtrak's fastest runs. It leaves NY at 5PM arrives Boston 8:34PM. Travel time is 3 hrs. 34 mins.
Nimby may have experienced an early arrival on the bus from New York to Boston. But the schedules above represent heavy travel periods during rush hours including the infamous Friday night getaway crowd and the train is 50 minutes faster on the schedule for those riders.
If the bus beats the schedule above - I can't imagine how. And anyone else who's been on 95 or 84 in that traffic will probably agree.
Also, if ya want dinner, you can get it at any of the major stops. Everytime I go up to Boston, we stop at Roy Rogers
Trains (when they do offer food) offer better food.
I've travelled on them and so I know this from experience.
Last chance for snowy pictures in the elevated and open air sections of the subway until the end of this year. Have fun.
The first one I actually slipped on the rocks, but I still think it came out decent.
Yeah, but I could be dying of that cold and CAS would still give me a hard time about booking off "If you're not dead yet, you can work. You're only a TW/O, you can do the job half dead."
I was out there no more than 10 minutes, including the 8 minutes walking there, climbing overthe rocks and back. I had my trusty timetables handy, saw the train was due at 1124, and was there no earlier than 1122. Believe me, didn't spend any more time there than I had to.
Still ... GREAT shots, bro ...
The NYCTA dosen't have rights over *birds you know.
Mark
EXCELLENT PICS---The Blue "A" looks real crisp, in spite of any lighting challenges you had with the weather.
Question:
What would one have to do to take photos of trains on that bridge? That's down in Howard Beach correct? Is that a publicly accessible area?
These are old, but some are quite excellent.
It appears to be worth the trek.
What's the nearest street?
I don't need directions, just what street is nearest to there.
CTA set to change lanes on Ryan Expressway
Move over, Dan Ryan Expressway drivers.
The CTA Red Line, which runs along the median of the highway from south of downtown to 95th Street, is about to jump the tracks. But there's no need for Red Line riders to assume the brace position.
Motorists, on the other hand, should prepare for big changes coming up. Even before the massive reconstruction of the Dan Ryan (Interstate Highway 90/94) gets under way next year.
An almost $200 million Chicago Transit Authority project starting soon to rehab the Dan Ryan branch of the Red Line will require the construction of temporary train tracks on the left shoulders of the congested expressway--in turn, shifting vehicle traffic out of the way.
The right shoulders will be used as traffic lanes starting in a few weeks, resulting in no loss of capacity or impact on travel flow (in theory at least) while the CTA work takes place through the end of the year, according to the Illinois Department of Transportation.
Concrete barriers will separate vehicles from the temporarily rerouted Red Line trains.
The track switch-over enables the CTA to improve Red Line reliability by upgrading traction power, tracks and signals while keeping trains running on a more than 9-mile stretch from the Cermak-Chinatown station to the end of the line at 95th Street, CTA officials said. It's the first major rehabilitation of the Red Line's Dan Ryan branch since it was built more than 30 years ago.
Seven stations along the line, from Sox-35th Street to 87th Street, will also be renovated to include new escalators and installation of elevators, platform canopies, lighting and sidewalks, CTA officials said.
Transportation officials are expected to announce the traffic changes on the Ryan this week, identifying specific work zones on the 9-mile section that will be in effect for up to two months per location.
Meanwhile, nighttime work to repave the right shoulders of the Ryan continues this week. The northbound right driving lane will be closed from 8 p.m. to 5 a.m. through Thursday. The southbound right lane will be closed during the same hours through Saturday.
The Red Line project faces a tight timetable along with the challenge of keeping the CTA's busiest rail line operating while under construction. The work must be completed, and trains returned to the expressway median, before the $430 million Ryan reconstruction begins in 2005. The three-year expressway rehab is aimed in part at reducing congestion and vehicle accidents.
..............
Found this in usenet because of concern of shrinking the lanes down and getting rid of the shoulder. My response? They're doing construction on the road right after anyway, they're just tacking another month or two on!! The lanes won't free up for over 3 years!
Plus, that road would've needed work 3 times through the one lifecycle that train line lived.
What's even worse is that when they finish the south end, the shutdown happens on the north end.
Already, road traffic on the south end has increased 18%, plus there are still insufficent buses for the shuttles.
-- David
Brooklyn, NY
I always wanted to ride a train in the median of a busy expressway, but to ride on the expressway with just a concrete barrier separating you and the gridlock would probably take the cake.
I could just imagine the peolpe stuck in their cars.
brake lights
acceleration to 5, grind the brakes to a stop, repeat
clank-clank-clank-clank
what's that noise?
WHOOSH
All the motorman has to do now is honk the horn and wave at the drivers!!
Alan Follett
Hercules CA
-- David
Brooklyn, NY
Interesting point about the Garfield Park surface reroute... I'd never given it much thought, but I'm certain you must be right about not having any stops along that line. Of course, the difference that occurs to me is that much of the traffic on the Garfield Park at that time came from connecting passengers at the west end - it wasn't as strung out along the various intermediate stops like the Red Line, or just about any other line, is now. A lot of the traffic must have come from connecting CA&E patrons (although of course these dropped off by about 50% after the rerouting!).
Frank Hicks
http://www.chicago-l.org/maps/route/maps/1957map.jpg
Note that this map also shows the temporary (and apparently now soon to return) Douglas Park routing via Lake Street.
The original Garfield Park "L" had eight intermediate stations between Halsted and Kedzie, the territory replaced by the stationless detour trackage along Van Buren Street:
http://www.chicago-l.org/maps/route/maps/1946map.jpg
I don't have any traffic figures for Garfield Park, but my guess is that CRT/CTA's own local riders far outnumbered CA&E through (or later connecting) traffic.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
http://www.chicago-l.org/news/index.html
"These shoo-flies are only being established at crossovers and other locations where special trackwork is required, not along the entire branch. The run-arounds will be ballasted tracks on normal ties, protected from auto traffic by concrete jersey barriers with chainlink fences atop them. Not all shoo-flies will be in service concurrently. Lane shifts will occur only when construction is underway at specific CTA® work zones and last approximately six to eight weeks per location."
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
Guess I'll have to make a trip to Chicago soon...
This comes not a moment too soon, as my last unemployment check just arrived in yesterday's mail.
Thanks to all who have offered their prayers and support during my "time in the desert", and wish me luck on the new job!
Also, keep in your prayers those who remain unemployed and especially those who have exhausted their benefits. It's a scary position to be in. Contrary to the noises being made by the White House these days, the national economy remains in the toilet and there are still lots of people who are looking for work.
Peace,
-- David
Brroklyn, NY
CG
Now you can look for some housing near the Beautiful Brighton Line and get out of the Slime Beach line.
Heh... Most likely I'll actually be looking for something on the 8th Avenue IND line, since that line is convenient to the office in Manhattan as well as the job site in Brooklyn. Washington Heights or Morningside Heights are looking like the top choices, since they're on that line and also close to my church.
However, I like Brooklyn and I wouldn't rule out finding another place down here. (Or even taking over the lease at this place and kicking out my idiot roommate!)
-- David
Brooklyn, NY
What? I haven't seen much 1337 5p34k over here!
Sounds like a great job, if i worked(take this anyway you want, because all interpretations are true), I would like to be somewhere different or outside 3 days a week. Let me know if you quit and need a replacment. :)
Heh... Well, I actually saved a ton of money on my car insurance by getting rid of my car and buying a monthly Metrocard. :-)
(Ironically, my living expenses here in NYC are about half what they were in Philly, and I'll be making about 25% more money at my new job than I was in Philly.)
-- David
Brooklyn, NY
I thought about living in different area's of certain cities, and working in certain area's. Say I moved from a suburb to downtown. Assume I could walk or even take one bus to place of employment. I figure the money I save on my car would go towards that apartment or condo. The value of what I get is way higher though. And the quality of life factor would shoot way up there too!
Oh, and before I forget, I just lowered my cholesterol. :)
On a somewhat on-topic note, the firm I'm now working for also designed the tall, glassy LIRR entry pavilion at Penn Station, just off the corner of 34th Street and 7th Avenue.
-- David
Brooklyn, NY
A very stylish structure indeed.
-- David
Brooklyn, NY
OK, so knock off radioactive bombs. That still leaves the much more common chemical explosive type.
No they wouldn't, unless it was a bomb using radioactive materials. And most detectors that would pick up such things are decidedly obtrusive. Also it'd cost billions to equip all of LIRR, MN, NJT, and NYCTA with these detectors.
You could get mongo X-ray machines like the kind being developed for Airports, and install it all over the MTA system, which would cost even more. A system like that would not a binary "yes or no" like a radiation detector, it'd need people watching all machines at all times, which is even more money. And then there'd be the problems of false alarms. Say bread looks like C4 on your super x-ray system, and somebody has a loaf of bread in their coat. Also say it's raining out, they went to the store, and didn't have an umbrella to keept the food in the bags dry, so they stuffed them in their coat. If you were working the machine, you'd see that and immediately think "Bomb!" prompting you to draw whatever weapon you were given and attempt to apprehend the believed terrorist, all for having a loaf of bread in his or her coat.
Of course, the MTA is asking us to keep vigilant, so be on your guard!
You have a point, maybe the R160 will be more helpful on the A line with an announcement like this 9:30PM and later: "This is a Manhattan bound A local Train, the next stop is Rockaway Ave, the Next Train is in 45 minutes. Stand Clear of the Closing Doors Please"
"This Manhattan bound A Express train is finally here, the next stop is Utica Ave, Please board this train as your wait for the next one will be unreasonablly long and the C will surely take its time. Stand clear of the closing doors please"
BTW: At 9:30, the A is still running express (At rockaway Ave at least)
Too soon to tell, we shall learn more next year.
You can be sure, barring cold weather plans, R160s will not be layed up there for some time. They'll have them secure in the yard.
At Utica Ave when they store trains underground for a weekend GO, they would never store an R142/A. They were afraid vandals would get a hold of them. I'm no longer in the A div, so I don't know if they continue that practice of only laying up R62s underground.
R-32.
AKA 76th Street!!!
Besides, it's a bad idea to put new, untested cars on the Queens Blvd. IND. Reliability here is a must.
Anything else is just guesses.
Really? Is this a fact?
Did the R142A's go where the cars they replaced were?
Just speculation. Some could go to ENY, facilliating the x-fer of the remaining R42's to CI, but I suspect the MTA wants to put their new cars on a high-profile line, like the A or N/Q. We'd have a better idea if we knew what cars will be retired when the initial order is delivered.
I was on the 5 today, and I missed my stop.
I took a 9:15 AM train at Newkirk and noticed (once again!) that the BEDFORD PARK BL, BRONX rollsign was never changed to 145TH ST, MANHATTAN. I know that if I boarded a B train at 9:15, it will not arrive at 145 until just before 10 AM, and rush hour B trains from BPB stop running after 9 AM. Every day, you will not see many trains that say 145th St on the rollsign. Is Brighton Beach short of a C/R with a hex key to change these signs? They did it prior to 2/20 (the last day of the weekday B using R68's), so what is going on here?
But if they could swap the digital signs of the R44 with the roll signs of the R40...
MUWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Of course, I do notice rollsign changes for the most part, but some sets still slip through.
Customers are smart. When they hear "Last stop 145 St" they'll know.
Sheesh...it's going to run to Bedford Park Bl again anyway, so leave it the way it is to save some work later on.
On R-68/A rollsigns, "Harlem|145 St" and "Bronx|Bedford Pk Blvd" are adjacent readings, hence the reason why they were (usually) correct while R-40/M/2 signs are, and probably always will be, incorrect. Today I saw everything on the north roll, including Essex and Crescent St, on B trains - they usually gave up about midway through the train. Some didn't even bother to correct so much as one sign.
Those trains would not be held from their departure times, for a sign change.
The guy sitting in his warm office, ordering rollsigns doesn't have to
change them at terminals. Gets a lot of money and his mind ends with his
desk.
I remember I was on an A at 207th that had been signed up with Lefferts as the southern terminal, but because of an apparent breakdown (we were supposed to end at dyckman anyway), the train was now going to Far Rockaway. A C/R was trying to change the signs when the C/R of the train announced that we were leaving, and so she had to leave off right where she was: 34th St.
Ahhh, the power of rumors.
Anyway, I really have to ask what the rumor was? Because that sounds like a doozy.
Well, last Saturday (before the Brighton Line J train pictures I took.), guess what G.O. posters I saw at 34th st/8th Ave/IND station?.
It appears that the E line reroute was supposed to take place the weekend of March 13-15, before the 7/N/G G.O.'s were pushed back to that same weekend. The cause the cancelation of the E as it was running normally. Seems like the station supervisors assignd to that station (or maybe others along the 8th Ave line with posters like these.) are not observing and correcting conditions like these. I asked a S/A, who I will not reveal who, and he/she said it was already called it hours ago and no one removed it at that time.
Talk about confusing customers with a G.O. that was postponed.
From time to time, dangling electrical extension cords are a common sight at station renovation projects.
Well take a look at these cords at Dekalb Ave station. To illustrate how dangerously close a live wire can be, I took a picture of myself, with the second set overhead
NYCT needs to beef you it's contractor oversight, if they really mean "Your safety matters to us.". Amazing no other customers ever bothered about these cords, some just stood right under it.
1 never knows what Kool-D intends on doing...
On the other hand, theres probably going to be some moron whos gonna try to bring paper clips or whatever to shock them.
Until the East Village woman was electrocuted by a juiced Consolidated Edison manhole cover last January, we sometimes take ourselves for granted about the safety of these manhole covers. Now, I try to walk around them whenever I can.
If you want unsafe electrical conditions, go hang out in the Puck Building when they rent out the space to someone who needs extra lighting - 4/0 cables connected into the building mains while they're hot.
Have a great evening Alex.
Also, as for your second pic: How does that illustrate the danger posed by the two extension cords hanging down? The electricity isn't going to drip out the bottom of the cord and hit you on the head. Nor is an accidental brushing of the cords by a tall passenger likely to touch the metal contacts within the cord.
The only danger I see is that the EMFs from the cord's polystyrene combined with the PFM of the tools that once were plugged into them and those two with the 3rd rail's TV reception ruining capabilities and caused your right eye to go off kilter!
Yes that is non-sensical, but so is this whole thread
Also, PFM = Pure Fucking Magic
Then you've just never been unlucky. If you're damp at both ends where the current runs through you, 110 V is often fatal.
You make it sound like you actually did that before 8-). Voltage is more powerful than you think, especially if the conductor is water. While the wires shown @ Dekalb may or may not have been live, I say that is unacceptable, epsecially if it's hanging over someone's head.
Water is an insulator. Electricity is conducted by whatever is in solution with water.
I say that is unacceptable, epsecially if it's hanging over someone's head.
The cords are not dangerous at all, there are no exposed contact. A lot of effort is required to electrocute oneself with them. If the cords were frayed, exposing the metal, that would be a different story.
There's likely to be some salt on your skin. In almost all imaginable circumstances, wet skin is a far better conductor than dry skin.
Your pal,
Fred
or
"I wonder if I'll get a shock if I try to piss up to it?"
;-)
Mark
Dangerous? Absurd! This is a beautiful new convenience! How thoughtful of the MTA to provide power outlets within its stations!
You'd better invest $ 3.00 on a VOM and check the voltage first, otherwise it may cost you a *lot* more than any ticket. ;^)
1. You look like youre standing on something
2. The wires are in the back of you, which means theyre probably 7-9 feet up there.
If you see something you think is unsafe, tell the token booth clerk or porter, or call the station manager at the number posted by the booth on the wall.
You nothing between you and 8 40+ton cars that could crush you, and you're worried about something that's commonplace in homes?
"This engine was reported to have problems," said Robert Evers, general chairman with the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers. "It was reported that there was some sort of malfunction in the braking system."
A crew member reported the equipment problem to a maintenance foreman after returning the locomotive to an LIRR facility that day, Evers said.
Evers did not know what work was performed on the 27-year-old locomotive after the brake problem was reported.
But he said the mechanical problems should steer investigators probing the March 10 accident away from human error.
"I hope they are not looking to make scapegoats out of the crew for this unfortunate occurrence," Evers said. "This was an equipment malfunction, nothing more, nothing less."
LIRR spokesman Sam Zambuto referred all questions to the National Transportation Safety Board.
NTSB spokesman Paul Schlamm declined comment. Investigators have said they will delve into the locomotive's maintenance records.
In the March 6 incident, the conductor stopped the locomotive in the Holban Yard in Hollis, Queens, Evers said.
The crew set the locomotive's air brakes and disconnected it from a boxcar and another locomotive.
Suddenly the engine moved - similar to what apparently happened in the Fresh Pond Yard four days later.
In that incident, the engine rolled down the LIRR's Bushwick freight line, smashing into three cars, two work trucks and a backhoe. Four people were injured, two critically.
Three remained hospitalized yesterday.
Evers said the locomotive's air brakes apparently lose pressure after being set and left idling, but showed no problems while in motion.
NTSB investigator Edward Dobranetski said last week the locomotive went through a periodically mandated inspection just two days before the accident.
http://techinfo.wabtec.com/BulletinFiles/68-21.pdf
I don't know what the LIRR Rulebook says, but under NORAC Rule 108 an engine must not be left unattended unless and air AND hand brakes are applied.
If the engine ran away because the air brake bled down and the hand brake was not applied the crews might still be guitly of a rules violation.
I'm not trying to take away from NYFD's good job on this, as by securing the train they prevented any further incident.
March 16, 2004
************************************************************
UPDATE ON NTSB INVESTIGATION OF ACCIDENT INVOLVING
UNMANNED LIRR LOCOMOTIVE IN NEW YORK CITY
************************************************************
The National Transportation Safety Board today released the
following update on its investigation of a series of highway
grade crossing collisions, March 10, involving an unmanned
Long Island Rail Road locomotive in Queens, New York. The
unmanned locomotive passed through grade crossings that did
not have active warning devices (bells, lights, gates),
striking several vehicles and causing serious injuries to
four vehicle occupants.
NTSB investigators have completed interviews with all five
of the railroad employees involved in the accident and will
be reviewing that information. The employees have told the
Safety Board that they set the air brakes before leaving the
locomotive unmanned for a brief period.
While crewmembers reported setting the air brakes, according
to crew statements and investigator observations, a separate
braking system - the hand brake - was not set, nor were the
wheels blocked, as required by LIRR operating rules when a
locomotive is left unattended.
Two days before the accident, the locomotive passed an
inspection mandated by the Federal Railroad Administration
(FRA). (The FRA requires that locomotives be inspected
every 92 days.) However, tests done on the locomotive
after the accident showed some leakage in the air brake
system, indicating that after a period of time enough air
would bleed off to release the brakes. The locomotive is
being held out of service for further NTSB mechanical
evaluation.
Data from the locomotive event recorders has been sent to
the NTSB laboratory in Washington for detailed readout and
analysis. Investigators also will be studying security
camera videos obtained by the New York City Police
Department.
NTSB investigators are looking into why a protective
mechanism, installed on the rails and designed to be able to
stop railroad equipment, failed. They also will be studying
the grade crossings, which earlier had active warning
devices that were removed.
The NTSB is aware of a report of an incident on March 6
stemming from brake problems with the accident locomotive,
and will be folding this information into its investigation.
The Safety Board also expects to receive reports of the
toxicology tests done on the train crewmembers in accordance
with LIRR policy.
NTSB Media Contact: Paul Schlamm (202) 314-6100
Brian Robinson OR Carol Goter Robinson OR Bill Robinson (wrob@erols.com) suggested I post his message here.
Michael Wares
------------------
To: Webmaster of fakeisthenewreal.org:
My suggestion/contribution (as the author of an unspecified,
but to-scale map-based graphic of the WMATA system including
possible extensions) would be to suggest:
The site owner of fakeisthenewreal.org should consider investing
in GIS maps, which are available for $ from a number of online sources.
Not necessarily to make PDFs (that would be too elaborate) but to
create low-res background GIFs for use as a guide in re-drawing
some of these maps which are not quite to scale.
The side benefit, of course, is that the resulting set of line drawings
would be far more useful in identifying landmarks and street-by-street
coverage and routing, about which there is VERY little information
available on or off the net.
These GIS planning (street) maps are very accurate at a large scale and
would provide a uniform basis for the next generation of comparative
to-scale transit maps, providing a more uniform and accurate scale.
Free versions can frequently be sussed out of online planning PDFs
used in publically available transit system expansion proposals
and (very occasionally) online bus maps.
As a side benefit the use of a grey-scale GIS map background (like
those found in online engineering documents for new transit lines)
would make this site an even more valuable resource, since it could
be used not just to compare the general size of two systems, but
differences in actual street-by-street coverage.
I'm sure plenty of transit fans would be willing to help revise
errors in actual system maps, if only a consistent set of base maps
were available over which system line drawings could be easily
re-drawn by hand. Thanks!
--BER
PS -- Please consider changes to make the scale more accurate per
Mark Brader's suggestions below. This will make the site a
whole lot more useful since the only info is comparative to
begin with. --- If this person (Mark) analysis is right,
then the problem can be fixed simply enough, by enlarging or
reducing EACH map in a graphix program by a different factor
to match the scale of the New York map, which could be
considered the baseline scale (not sure if it's 7 pixels/km,
but you get the idea).
Obviously, the scale differences will never be completely accurate
without a GIS background image, which would be the best possible
additional feature I could possibly suggest, since it would show
city size relative to where the lines actually go.
But if the purpose is just to provide a comparative visual reference
and compare system shape in the abstract, I guess 3% margin of error
in scale differences is just fine.
This is what would result by, e.g. enlarging the Paris image by
a factor of 1.367 or 14.9/10.9 (baseline: NY image). See below.
Same for other inaccuracies - ASSUMING Mark Brader is correct:
divide the pixels per mile Mark identified for each offending
map, by the pixels per mile for the New York City image, and
scale the offending map by the resulting factor to match the
scale of the New York City image.
I also have a copy of a fairly accurate SF BART map somewhere
tho I'd have to dig it up.
To Michael Wares: Feel free to fwd to Subtalk for comments
or corrections. --BER
> > Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004
> > Subject: Metros around the world
>
> > I received this from a colleague, and for some reason thought
> > people on this list would find it as cool as I did. It shows
> > the subway patterns of cities around the world. My favorite
> > was Moscow.
> >
> > http://www.fakeisthenewreal.org/subway/index.html
Mark Brader (msb@vex.net) has carefully studied the maps
and found serious errors of scale. His analysis follows.
Michael Wares
... what I did was to blow up the small-scale maps to 6 x size in xv
and print them that way, so I could count the individual pixels. I
also pasted on a 60x120 pixel rectangle (equivalent to 10 x 20 pixels
before scaling) so I could measure distances to check my count.
I then picked rail landmarks as I described before, this time being
careful to choose ones I could locate as accurately as possible on the
1/300,000 scale city maps in my world atlas; I measured and counted
pixels horizontally and vertically on the images from the web site,
and measured the diagonal distance on the atlas maps. And here are the
results, which I am confident are within about 3% of the true numbers,
and probably better than that in most cases.
Paris
CDG/Etoile - Gare d'Austerlitz
48 pix hor X 33 pix vert = 58.2 pix diagonal distance
map distance 20.7 mm -> 6.2 km = 3.9 miles
=> 14.9 pixels/mile
New York
Lower Manhattan curves - Rockaways junction
117 pix hor X 85 pix vert = 144.6 pix diagonal distance
map distance 71.5 mm -> 21.4 km = 13.3 miles
=> 10.9 pixels/mile
Washington
West Falls Church - Wheaton
47 pix hor X 56 pix vert = 73.1 pix diagonal distance
map distance 67 mm -> 20.1 km = 12.5 miles
=> 5.8 pixels/mile
London
Richmond - Epping
86 pix hor X 74 pix vert = 113.5 pix diagonal distance
map distance 128 mm -> 38.4 km = 23.9 miles
=> 4.7 pixels/mile
Chicago
O'Hare station - middle of Loop
60 pix hor X 31 pix vert = 67.5 pix diagonal distance
map distance 84 mm -> 25.2 km = 15.7 miles
=> 4.3 pixels/mile
Conclusion: the supposed uniformity of scale is no such thing. It is
an error or a fiction. And you can quote me on that.
--
Mark Brader "One might as well complain about the Sun
Toronto rising in the daytime instead of at night,
msb@vex.net when we need it more." -- John Lawler
Got off at Surburban Station and after 'raiding the racks' headed over to the Broad Street Subway. Unike Penn Station or Grand Central, the place was pretty much a ghost town with most of the stores closed and only a hanful of people milling about.
I rode down to Pattison Avenue to say goodbye to Veterans Station, which will be imploded next Sunday. Have many fond memories of the place, having seen many Met-Phillies games, two Jet-Eagle games and five concerts there. Bought a ticket at the new Citizens Bank Ballpark for the first series that the Mets will be in town for myself and the little Booge. Was also able to schmooze my way into the ballpark provided that I wore a hard hat and was out of there in tem minutes. There was plenty of construction going on to finish the consession areas, sidewalks and yuppie boxes. You can tell that they still had a lot to do by the fact that they were working on a Sunday. With less then three weeks to go before their first game on April 3, its going to be a close call. The ballpark is going to be nice and reminds me a little of the old Connie Mack Stadium on Lehigh Ave, with its left field unsymetrical shape. My uncle took me there two years after the Phillies had moved to the Vet. My feeling is that you don't replace a 33 year old ballpark with two costly new ones when you have a city that resembles Calcutta in several areas and has an extremly cash-starved transit system! Another impression is that SEPTA is going to need to either do a bit of digging and extend its platform at Pattison Ave south 2-3 blocks past the bumping blocks or build a new passageway as the current entrance is now three blocks from the Wachovia Center and a good 4-5 blocks from both the new football and baseball stadiums.
Jumped back on to the Broad Street Subway and rode to to Girard to check out the progress on the soon to opened 15 car line. Everything was in place, it looked like they had not started testing as there was some tar and stuff over the track area, at least on this section. Glad to see that they have partial segragation, at least by Broad street, although Girard Ave is too narrow for the full effect as used to be the case on Erie ave. Hopefully SEPTA will find the buckage to needed to restore the 23,56 and 60 car lines as well as the trackless lines.
I then boarded the subway southbound and rode to City Hall where a transferred to the 36 subway-surface car and took it to the end of the line at the Penrose Plaza Shopping center.
After an enjoyable meal at a seafood restaurant, I took an inbound 36 car to Juniper and transferered to the Market Frankford line, which I rode to 8th street. I then got on an eastbound PATCO train over the Ben Franklin Bridge. Riding over the bridge, I was was struch with a case of 'what might have been'. PATCO's Lindenwold line was designed to be a trunk, with two branches one north and one south of Camden built. The south branch would have run close to the area that the River Line was built to serve and would have run as far south as Cinnaminson, making the Light Rail Line uneeded.
It was now 5:30 and starting to get dark, so I rode a southbound train to the terminal at the Entertainment Center. The two car train was now VERY crowded and most of the passsengers stayed on the cars during the layover. From the talk that I overheard I would guess that 90-95% of the people who rode today will not be regular rider. I do however fing it to be encouraging that at least they got to experience the line, many with their kids, so at least the seed of potential future ridership has been planted. Returned to 36 street station at 6:01 PM after an enjoyable opening day. The line is designed for easy double tracking along the whole legnth and I hope that before long it becomes needed along with 15 minute rush hour headways construction of an extension to downtown Trenton. Would also hope that through operating experience and common sense that they can get the one-way running time down to an hour even.
The north branch is the Burlington County branch. If it had been built as originally proposed, it would have followed the Pemberton Branch through Moorestown to Mount Holly, serving the non-river population centers of Burlington county. Moorestown is a wealthy and influential town, and its NIMBY's effectively blocked that route.
Their main objection, as Jersey Mike has pointed out, was that existing low cost housing would have been removed for building the station and parking lots, and relocated into parts of Moorestown inhabited by the wealthy, influential citizens.
How do job schedules work on the LIRR/MNRR, are they usually a certain amount of trips on one branch (ex: 2 trips from Flatbush to Far Rock or 1 trip from GCT to New Haven), or a certain amount of trips to one branch and a certain amount of trips to another (ex: 2 trips- 1 from Flatbush to Far Rock, 1 from Flatbush to Long Beach).
Are there Vacation Relief, RDO relief, and straight jobs? Also, is working in a yard/or work trains a higher seniority job than the road?
Until Next Time,
Mike
ONE TO CROTON HARMON (LOCAL)
BACK TO NY
ONE TO POUGHKEEPSIE(EXPRESS)
BACK TO NY. AND THEY ARE DONE
OR ANOTHER HUDSON JOB WOULD BE 2 TO CROTON HARMON AND BACK TO NY
NEW HAVEN WOULD BE SOMETHING LIKE
NEW HAVEN AND BACK TO NY
STAMFORD OR NEW CANAAN BACK TO NY.
ONE OF MY FAVORITES ARE...........
I DONT KNOW THE JOB NUMBER, but they make the 646 Brewster North arriving there at 817. returning as the 909, returning to NY at 1036. from 1036 they break till like 4 something. take out the 445 crestwood or something like that, return to NY and they are done.
Chuck Greene
And is that Lincoln? Sure, why not...
Snow depth
Current conditions (i.e. snowing heavily, mix with rain, etc.)
Your town/neighborhood
If your rail trip was adversely impacted by the weather (during the past hour only)
First name (if desired).
You can email this to radio88 at radio88.net
Thanks in advance for helping Transit and Weather Together!
And that's Transit and Weather Together for this storm...
Well, I guess the C/R was not paying too much attention b/c he closed down the train with the T/O still standing at the door talking to the person in the tower.
The T/O had to use his key to open the door and squeeze in before it closed again.
That's his fault. Some of them are too lazy to close the door once they get inside, so they open it, then close it holding it open with foot/whatever.
Or he could have told the conductor on the radio to reopen. The Queens equipment doesn't have door enablers so the C/R would have been able to open without a problem.
Are not the buzzers tested as part of the brake test when setting the cars up for service. More likely the C/R was busy, perhaps with his head out the window giving instructions to a goose, and did not hear the buzzard.
Elias
Failures (by definition) have to occur *sometime*.
It would then be picked up at the next brake test from that position.
Would that be enough to take the trainset OOS?
Elias
Makes snese, you can also communicate by intercom or by radio.
Elias
Of course. But it doesn't happen that often. You can still listen to the announcements, and if you're standing in the right spot, you can even check out one of the two subway maps in the car.
If the strip maps are wrong, then look at the exterior signs. If it says "5" get on. In worst case scenario, even if you don't know the stops the "5" makes, and even if there is no announcement, however you know to get off of at a certain stop, then look out of a window until you see that stop.
In other words, use common sense.
IMO, We should not have EITHER Redbirds OR R142/As in service now. R62/As Outdo both of them in every possible manner. just get new R62s with AC traction.
R-142 HVAC systems cool marginally. They compensate with strong (and loud) fans, so those passengers sitting in the direct path of the air are cooled, but those unfortunate enough to be elsewhere in the car remain relatively warm. R-62A HVAC systems actually cool the entire car, making for a more comfortable ride for everyone.
A guy who loves subways waaaay to much
B Bonnici
The R62's are better than R142s? No, thats not right. They use technology from the 50's!
In which case we should have boxcars without seats or windows on the subway, eh?
Your third sentence is in no way related to your first.
Sure it is.
Or we could have no trains at all.
Or we could have no trains at all.
Or we could be a bus dependent city ;-D.
:-) Andrew
I don't know if the outer boroughs would be like Staten Island. Then again they might be their own cities and towns again. Definately there would be more people that 100 years ago. Maybe there would be alot of downtown areas outside of Manhattan. Maybe alot of small subway or railroads.
I agree.
R62/R62A's forever. Long live redbird technology.
Besides, the R142/A's are way more prone to graffiti and rust(since the R62/A's don't rust at all).
Ho hum. This proliferation of garbage continues. Please explain how an R62 can kick a new tech train's 'ass'. Their motors are not more powerful. In fact, In case you didn't notice, they use older DC motors. I often wondered 'Why would the TA go through the trouble of adding converters to a car just to use AC motors?' Then, I discovered that DC motors have more moving parts. That means more breakdowns. That means more shop time, or at the very least, more expense spent on upkeeping these motors. And when R142's need repairs, They have systems that help diagnose problems.
R142's have 'cushioned' trucks (R142's moreso than R142A's). Some of these 'cushions' even help reduce truck/wheel wear and tear, according to someone on this website (search for differences between R142 R142A). This doesn't even begin to express that they ride better than older cars.
If your going to make statements, please explain your reasoning.
Besides, the R142/A's are way more prone to graffiti and rust(since the R62/A's don't rust at all).
How are R142's more prone to graffitti or rust? BOTH cars are stainless steel.
Ho hum. This proliferation of garbage continues. Please explain how an R62 can kick a new tech train's 'ass'. Their motors are not more powerful .
Because I said so. R142/A''s are a good class of cars, but are inferior to the R62/A's
In fact, In case you didn't notice, they use older DC motors.
NO REALLY?
I often wondered 'Why would the TA go through the trouble of adding converters to a car just to use AC motors?' Then, I discovered that DC motors have more moving parts. That means more breakdowns. That means more shop time, or at the very least, more expense spent on upkeeping these motors.
Wrong. If that was the case, AC motors would of been in the system sooner. In fact (for the most part) trains with DC motors have roughly the same MDBF as trains with AC motors.
And when R142's need repairs, They have systems that help diagnose problems.
R142's have 'cushioned' trucks (R142's moreso than R142A's). Some of these 'cushions' even help reduce truck/wheel wear and tear, according to someone on this website (search for differences between R142 R142A). This doesn't even begin to express that they ride better than older cars.
I find part of that hard to believe. Ive ridden R142's that ridden worse than R32's with flat wheels.
How are R142's more prone to graffitti or rust? BOTH cars are stainless steel.
Ends: Carbon Steel (Moreso on the R142A's)
Roof: Carbon Steel
Doors: Brush Steel
Only the stuff not mentioned is stainless (not including the interiors).
As for the graffitti stuff: I admit part of its bull---- from the heat of the moment. But:
1. Have you seen a tagged up R62/A body? Because I seen R142/A's tagged up plenty.
2. Sometime it pays to feel the texture of the car bodys. Trust me, the R142/A;s are more rough, which may affect the way they look after cleaning.
David
I never said the doors are carbon steel. I said theyre brush steel.
The ends are carbon steel (fiberglass doesnt rust), and no I dont have to provide a source just because you disagree with me, especially since I can provide photographic evidence of it.
There is no such thing as "brush steel." There can be "brushed aluminum," etc.
Again: Provide evidence that the R-142's exterior is carbon steel, even in part, or stop making the claim.
David
Until then, about that steel dust. Why hasnt that been present on other car types? Does the R142/A simply have this problem? Theres other cars with fiberglass ends, but the R142/A just have this problem.
And yes, I mixed up brushed steel with brushed aluminum. My apoligiez.
David
The cool thing is, on an overcast or sunny day the R142A look stark white instead of silver
But to clear the air, that "because I said so" bit, that was my reason for believing that the R62/A's are better than the new techs. That was just my opinion. It wasn't to signify any superiority, or to say "I'm better than you", it was just my opinion. But, for the sake of diplomacy, I'll apoligize for that also.
David
You warranted such a response. This response, like your last one, again has no facts or proof, and your attitude of superiority (even though you're wrong) is noted. However, since I noticed that you apologized for this, I will leave it at that.
Because I said so. R142/A''s are a good class of cars, but are inferior to the R62/A's
Again, proof?
Wrong. If that was the case, AC motors would of been in the system sooner. In fact (for the most part) trains with DC motors have roughly the same MDBF as trains with AC motors.
Just because something is more efficient doesn't mean that NYCT will incorporate it as soon as it is developed. Add to that the fact that NYCT has DC current in it's 3rd rail, and you have fairly good reasons why DC motors remained the norm.
Additionally, MDBF applies to an entire car, and doesn't tell you the maintenance costs for a car, or inform you how often regular maintenance must be performed.
I find part of that hard to believe. Ive ridden R142's that ridden worse than R32's with flat wheels.
You warranted such a response. This response, like your last one, again has no facts or proof, and your attitude of superiority (even though you're wrong) is noted. However, since I noticed that you apologized for this, I will leave it at that.
Because I said so. R142/A''s are a good class of cars, but are inferior to the R62/A's
Again, proof?
Wrong. If that was the case, AC motors would of been in the system sooner. In fact (for the most part) trains with DC motors have roughly the same MDBF as trains with AC motors.
Just because something is more efficient doesn't mean that NYCT will incorporate it as soon as it is developed. Add to that the fact that NYCT has DC current in it's 3rd rail, and you have fairly good reasons why DC motors remained the norm.
Additionally, MDBF applies to an entire car, and doesn't tell you the maintenance costs for a car, or inform you how often regular maintenance must be performed.
I find part of that hard to believe. Ive ridden R142's that ridden worse than R32's with flat wheels.
It's an actual fact that the R142's have a suspension system that will provide for a smoother ride. If you want to disagree with me over your personal opinion, fine.
Ends: Carbon Steel (Moreso on the R142A's)
Roof: Carbon Steel
Doors: Brush Steel
Only the stuff not mentioned is stainless (not including the interiors).
Somebody else already mentioned this.
1. Have you seen a tagged up R62/A body? Because I seen R142/A's tagged up plenty.
Contrary to your belief, Stainless steel is not graffitti proof. R62/A's have been tagged before. They just get it removed.
2. Sometime it pays to feel the texture of the car bodys. Trust me, the R142/A;s are more rough, which may affect the way they look after cleaning.
What does this have to do with anything?
True.
It's an actual fact that the R142's have a suspension system that will provide for a smoother ride. If you want to disagree with me over your personal opinion, fine.
Personally, from my experience, their ride is type rougher than their kawasaki counterparts, and as I said before, some of them have a even worse ride than they should.
Contrary to your belief, Stainless steel is not graffitti proof. R62/A's have been tagged before. They just get it removed.
I never said it wasn't, though I said that R142/A's are more prone to graffiti attacks, which I apoligize for.
What does this have to do with anything?
Even I dont know why I put that there.
Ends: Carbon Steel (Moreso on the R142A's)
Roof: Carbon Steel
Doors: Brush Steel
Only the stuff not mentioned is stainless (not including the interiors).
Somebody else already mentioned this.
Now thats just beating the dead horse. Theres no need to mention something I apoligized for.
what strecch of track are you talking about? I ride the 2/3 from Hoyt or Borough Hall to 96th, and haven't noticed R142's being rougher than R62 or R62As.
R142's have more sway to them, but I generally find the bumps to be more bearable.
I like the '62's too--in fact the 62A is my favorite subway car of all. But I might remind you that "R62" and "R62A" are contract numbers for contracts that expired in nineteen-eighty-something. By definition you can't possibly build any more of them! I suppose one could build an R189-3/4 or whatever that is identical to an R62 or R62A--indeed the R62 and R62A were essentially shiny silver redbirds with better rollsigns--but I'm not sure it would be advisable.
:-) Andrew
The R142/A's could of been the next R44 fiasco.
You are going to put BLACK LEDs on them. Gee... wouldn't those be hard to read?
: ) AMLTST
The redbirds had no strip maps. Meaning that no matter where a train was, you could not look at a strip map.
A map that says not in use is just as useful as what's mentioned above.
Ideally, there should be LCD's instead of those retarded strip maps. Prototype cars delivered in 1992 had strip maps like those.
Didn't someone say that there was one set of R143's with LCD's on the strip maps?
Sure they did. They were located above the end doors. In fact, up until a certain disaster and the disappearance of the Redbirds caused massive reassignments, the entire IRT had strip maps. Even then, equipment would sometimes find its way onto a route that didn't match its strip maps. Nobody cried or whined or got lost as a result.
The only difference today is that the R142(A) maps blink and light up, and have the ability to TELL you when to disregard them.
Call them retarded if you like - they do have PLENTY of problems - but they're not a step backwards.
Mark
VERY NOTICEABLE in the sense that it's white lettering which becomes
more apparent under a dark tunnel background...
a Kodak moment (for Redbirdians)!
OH OY GAWD!!! we've never seen scratchitti before on the R142/a! WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO!?!!??!?!?!?
If you're into buses, some of KB's 56xx artics have some nasty scratchitti on the rear windows
No ammount of technology can force the C/R or T/O to display the right signs. The 7 local/express jazz is just one of many examples of this.
:-) Andrew
Same for Riverside on the Green Line. What is the parking situation (availability) if one arrives there around 9 AM, and if one arrives there at about 3 PM? And what is the cost to park? Fare to Downtown Boston is $3.00 and $1.25 returning, correct?
A much better bet is the Route 128 Amtrak station in Dedham (University Ave. off Route 128/I-95). It's $3 per day, and never fills up. From there you can take the commuter rail into the city -- frequent service provided by the Providence and Stoughton branches.
I was reading the post regarding the Comet V's and have to admit that I'm extremely puzzled about the West of Hudson service on Metro-North.
Would anyone be able to clue me in on the operation and maintenance of the West of Hudson lines and equipment? Also are there any plans to link the West of Hudson lines to those East of the Hudson?
Many Thanks in Advance,
Brian
Concourse Exp
For the record, that is the Erie RR's Piermont Branch. Also the original New York & Erie RR route before it took over the Paterson & Ramapo and Paterson & Hudson River railroads to reach Jersey City.
The new line would run from Stewart Airport
There is nothing concrete about this that I have heard, only speculation. Also, if Stewart Airport were to be included, it would be an intermediate stop and not a destination, I postulate.
then along 287 to Port Chester
Also speculation. That would make a direct ride into GCT too long.
2. I got that info bout Stewart Airport from the MTA site. They had several proposals most if not all to Stewart Airport. Also, they said as a terminus, not as a stop along the line.
3. The connection for GCT bound trains is at the Harlem line(trains would turn south onto Harlem line, no transfer required for pax). There is still the plan for a rail line to travel across Westchester via 287 to Port Chester. This 've got from both the MTA and a group that was pushing this and handing out flyers at the Croton open house. IMO, trains should run from Suffern, down 287 to Port Chester, then up to New Haven. Definately get some cars off the road.
Regards,
Jimmy
MetroNorth is there because the lions are in New York State.
MNRR contracts out to NJT to run the service, just like CDOT contracts with MNRR to run trains in Conneticut.
In this instance, MNRR provides a number of Locomotives and Rail Cars for service on these lines, though the equipment is in practice pooled with other NJT services.
Elias
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
There is also a full MNRR comet v set running on the ST now (in passenger service).
In a general (non-railroad) context, the part of NY State west of Binghamton and south of the Thruway.
PICS???
-Chris
South of 63d won't be built till after north of 63rd. Another yard possibility would be a new facility in LIC near Sunnyside and the LIRR connector to the 63d St. Tunnel.
I think the SAS should be extend to SI and take over the SIRR instead of
connecting it to existing tunnels in Manhattan.
thanks!
Excerpt from the forgotten-ny.com page:
[When they're done reconstructing the Stillwell Avenue station, it will be the terminal for the B (Brighton) D (West End) , N (Sea Beach) and F (Culver) subway lines.]
No mention of (Q) on the Brighton.
BUT ANYWAY, it is a really good page from a really cool site. Thanks.
-Chris
and stills here http://www.trainweb.org/phillynrhs/RPOTW.html
:)
-Chris
>anyway. where can i buy it? do u have a link? i cant find it myself on dicsovery.com and do u have the map online?
-Chris
As far as the itinerary goes, search the archive. The last itinerary posted is close to what actually happened.
Think Oddjob
Vince
The link you can go to is http://palter.org/~brotzman/02-21-04_BALTIMORE_LIGHT_RAIL/Thumbnails.html
Don't worry, I'll still give y'all some teasers.
Here is the star of the day...an MMTA light rail vehicle at the southern terminus of the line.
Here is a forgotten holdout of signaling past. This is an approach signal guarding the Curtis Creek branch as it approaches BAILEY interlocking. It serves only to warn the engineer that he is approaching the interlocking and dosen't even have to be lit...which it is not. However it still counts as an active B&O CPL. I spotted this from our light rail train and insisted upon a 1 headway layover to photograph it.
Here is a brand new CSX SD70MAC in the "Dark Future" paint scheme headed past the CPL's at HB Tower.
Here is lead off MARC AEM-7 4900 arriving at Baltimore Penn Station on track 5. Note the mismatched numberboards.
Again, the new style page is located at ://palter.org/~brotzman/02-29-04_BALTIMORE_PICS_II+CP_TOME/Thumbnails.html
And here are the hi-lites.
New from EMD SD70MAC's are all over the BT Sub...usually hauling garbage to and from NYC. Kind of ironic if you think about it. Here number 4727 exits the Charles tunnel with a blast of exhaust as it works up the grade.
I have been working up change up the angles I use here at the Charles-Paul cut...like it?
I see a lot of big stone blocks heading towards NYC, any idea what they are for?
Hey! Someone finally got creative with reporting marks!
Here is the mast mounted C64 signal for the controled siding at MP 6.5
Here is the whole MP 6.5 signal bridge. The PRR was very good about mounting signals on the engineer's side of the cab. With today's widecab/lo-nose diesels this is not as important as it once was. The transformer and vintage power cables on the left of the catenary gantry are still in use and carry 6000 VAC to power the signals and relays and what not.
Here is the flip side of the signal gantry with both C65 dusplaying an APPROACH aspect. This indicates that traffic for both the controlled siding and main track is thrown in the northbound direction.
Here is the northward signal at CP-TOME where the main track and siding converge into a single track. The tracks expand again just 2 miles down the track and the reason for this interlocking is a rock outcrapping that restricts clearance. You'll note that the signal governing the controled siding can display an APPROACH MEDIUM aspect even though the siding converges into the main. This is another example of the PRR/PC/CR bulitin order trick of allowing trains to diverge over an APPROACH MEDIUM if the preceeding signal was not CLEAR. The reason for this is that PRR PL's are unable to display MEDIUM APPROACH MEDIUM so when you need to diverge, go one block and diverge again you need to get creative. Also note the Y-Y-Y stop aspect instead of the PC/Conrail R---R.
Here is the other end of CP-TOME, again note the Y-Y-Y STOP indication. I had some very interesting lighting and was playing with different exposure rates. The sun was just about the disappear behind the bluffs accross the river. The Port Road is cab signaled so the signaling cabinet at the right was making quite a racket with the tick-tick-ticks of the 3 different code generator.
I was getting a little artsy and tried out some different angles and lighting. In the first pic note the conical amber colour gels that both colour and concentrate the light. The Port Road is also great by the fact that none of the signals are approach lit.
The most critical missing pockets in the system are at Fort Totten and U Street on the Green Line. One of those, if not both, should exist. It would provide the best pattern of service possible. We should be lucky the one at Mount Vernon Square was built, Greenbelt does not need 20 TPH during rush hour, which is what it would have had if the Yellow Line and Green Line both went there.
Now, my next idea was that depending on how high ridership is on the Greenbelt branch, swap the Yellow and Green northern terminals. Trains would run from Greenbelt to Huntington and Branch Avenue to Mount Vernon Square. This would increase reliability on the southern Green Line. In addition, the lines with lowest and highest use would be paired with each other:
New Carrollton-Vienna (highest)
Addison Road-F/S (medium-high)
Branch Avenue (medium)
Greenbelt-Huntington (lowest)
The new Yellow Line could probably get away with fewer than 10 TPH in the morning. Service on the Branch Avenue line might be able to recieve a minor increase.
Also, when enough cars are available, all Red Line trains during the afternoon rush hour should go through to Shady Grove. Service would operate as follows:
5:30 AM to 7 AM: Shady Grove to Glenmont (5-10 TPH, closer to 10 than to 5 at 7 AM)
7 AM to 9 AM Shady Grove or Grosvenor to Glenmont or Silver Spring (20 TPH at Metro Center, every 2nd train would run short turn, this is the current pattern)
9 AM to 3:30 PM: Shady Grove to Glenmont (10 TPH)
3:30 PM to 7 PM: Shady Grove to Silver Spring or Glenmont (20 TPH at Metro Center, every 2nd train would turn back at Silver Spring, 10 TPH at Wheaton)
7 PM to closing: Shady Grove to Glenmont (10-4 TPH, 4 at closing)
Any comments or additional suggestions?
Mark
The most critical missing pockets in the system are at Fort Totten and U Street on the Green Line. One of those, if not both, should exist. It would provide the best pattern of service possible. We should be lucky the one at Mount Vernon Square was built, Greenbelt does not need 20 TPH during rush hour, which is what it would have had if the Yellow Line and Green Line both went there.
The original plans for the Fort Totten (E06) station called for an elevated structure east of the station all the way in to Maryland. The elevated structure between the station and South Dakota Ave was to have a pocket track with the connector track coming up between the main line tracks at the west interlocking of the pocket track. I never asked why the pocket track was deleted. The elevated was deleted and the line was put underground because of community opposition.
I think I have mentions this here before.
As far as I know the Mount Vernon Square (E01) pocket track was not in the original plans.
Now, my next idea was that depending on how high ridership is on the Greenbelt branch, swap the Yellow and Green northern terminals. Trains would run from Greenbelt to Huntington and Branch Avenue to Mount Vernon Square. This would increase reliability on the southern Green Line. In addition, the lines with lowest and highest use would be paired with each other:
Your idea of swapping the north end of the Green line with the Yellow line makes a hell of a lot of sense.
John
Now, my next idea was that depending on how high ridership is on the Greenbelt branch, swap the Yellow and Green northern terminals. Trains would run from Greenbelt to Huntington and Branch Avenue to Mount Vernon Square. This would increase reliability on the southern Green Line. In addition, the lines with lowest and highest use would be paired with each other:
I like how you think. It'd at least give the Yellow Line something more of a practical usage than just as a shortcut from the Alexandria/Arlington County area to Downtown DC. And I can almost ALWAYS get a seat on a Green Line train from Greenbelt. Aren't half the stations on that part of the line pretty much set back from the streets, and rather remote (i.e. Greenbelt itself and West Hyattsville)?
New Carrollton-Vienna (highest)
Addison Road-F/S (medium-high)
Branch Avenue (medium)
Greenbelt-Huntington (lowest)
And then what when the Silver Line opens? Then you have a triple shared trunk in three spots, and operations would look more like this:
East/West trunk: New Carrollton-Vienna (Orange), Largo-Fran/Spring (Blue), Loudon County-Stadium/Armory (Silver)
North/South trunk: Greenbelt-Huntington (Yellow), Mt Vernon Sq/7th St-Branch Avenue (Green), Mt Vernon Sq or Fort Totten-Franconia/Springfield (Blue)
VA trunk: Fran/Spring-Largo (Blue), Huntington-Greenbelt (Yellow), Fran/Spring-Mt Vernon Sq or Fort Totten (Blue)
Really would tie things up for the heavily used lines as it stands... And while I KNOW most Silver trains would run Route 772 to Tyson's East, with the other half going Tyson's West to Stadium-Armory, I'd bet my hand-drawn track maps of the WMATA system that rush hour trains would most likely go Route 772 to Stadium-Armory... against the already in need of frequency increase Orange Line, the middle heavyweight Blue Line, and forcing half the Blue trains to the Fenwick Bridge route, which would tie up the heavily used Green Line between Downtown DC and Bracnh Avenue, as well as get in the Yellow Line's way.
Hm... maybe THIS could work.
Orange: retain current line+any future extensions
Blue: Largo Town Center to Franconia-Springfield; Greenbelt to Huntington
Green: Branch Avenue to Fort Totten/Georgia Ave-Petworth+ any extensions SOUTH
Yellow: Greenbelt to National Airport+ any extensions NORTH.
Silver: Route 772 to West Falls Chruch; Stadium-Armory to Dulles Airport (How to get to WFC? Use the provisional tacks that go to the yard. I KNOW they have a 15MPH restriction there, but for a terminal station with tight curves nearby, that's usually forgivable... they manage here in Philadelphia with a 12MPH restriction on the Broad Street Line for trains operating between Olney Terminal and Fern Rock Transportation Center, and no one complains).
Also, when enough cars are available, all Red Line trains during the afternoon rush hour should go through to Shady Grove. Service would operate as follows:
5:30 AM to 7 AM: Shady Grove to Glenmont (5-10 TPH, closer to 10 than to 5 at 7 AM)
7 AM to 9 AM Shady Grove or Grosvenor to Glenmont or Silver Spring (20 TPH at Metro Center, every 2nd train would run short turn, this is the current pattern)
9 AM to 3:30 PM: Shady Grove to Glenmont (10 TPH)
3:30 PM to 7 PM: Shady Grove to Silver Spring or Glenmont (20 TPH at Metro Center, every 2nd train would turn back at Silver Spring, 10 TPH at Wheaton)
7 PM to closing: Shady Grove to Glenmont (10-4 TPH, 4 at closing)
Decent. I assume the weekend ops would retain the current pattern of every 2nd train running Grosvenor to Silver Spring, with the others going full route. I wonder if the line would acquire new short-turn spots if the Red were to ever be extended in BOTH directions...
As I already mentioned, the line is supposed to run from Route 772 in Loudon County, past Dulles Airport, and along the Dulles Airport access and toll road through Herndon, Reston, Wolf Trap, and into Tyson's Corner. East of that point, it will join the Orange Line just east of the West Falls Church Station (so the last transfer point will be East Falls Church, though they could use the yard access tracks west of WFC to get to the Dulles road, though it'd be slow going), and continue to downtown Washington, terminating at Staduim-Armory, and likely laying over in the pocket track near D&G Junction (the diverging point for the Orange and Blue Lines). However, because that route would pretty much get in the way of the existing Blue/Orange service between Stadium-Armory and Rosslyn stations, it's been mentioned that not every train would go full route; some from Loudon would end at Tyson's East (which is why I think they should use the WFC yard lead tracks to get to the Dulles Road; trains can end at WFC, where passengers can just jump to an Orange Line train to go further east if the trip isn't full route), while some from Stadium-Armory would end at Tyson's West. It's also been mentioned that half the Blue trains would be diverted onto the Yellow Line's route from entagon into the Yellow/Green trunk, and terminate either in Mt Vernon Sq or Greenbelt.
It's inevitable, WMATA is going to need to construct another east/west main through DC, and connect it to Rosslyn, so ONE of those three can stay out of the way. Even with half the Blue service rerouted away from Largo, they'd still have tie-ups; Orange has a lot of ridership and needs more trains.
John
John has posted the plans for when the Silver Line begins operations. Some trains from F/S would operate via the Fenwick to somewhere, I think Greenbelt.
My idea for lines for post Silver Line would be as follows (not assigning colors):
Route 772 or Dulles Airport to Addison Road
Vienna to New Carrollton
Franconia-Springfield to Stadium-Armory
Franconia-Springfield to Mount Vernon Square
Huntington to Greenbelt
Branch Avenue to Greenbelt
Shady Grove/Grosvenor to Silver Spring/Glenmont
What might other stations in contention be? WMATA has few elevated stations.
I also drove along Blair Road next to the ROW near Takoma. The tracks are very far above street level, something one can not easily see from the train.
wayne
#3 West End Jeff
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
Mark
Good question, John, any input?
Mark
This photo was taken from the observation deck of the George Washington Masonic National Memorial, and Huntington can be seen off in the distance (with Eisenhower Avenue near the center of the photo). You can tell that it's all elevated on the approach, even at that distance. I'd definitely consider Huntington to be an aerial station because while it is built into a hillside, the approach to the station is definitely aerial, with the trains served to Huntington on an elevated structure. Thus even though the platform has landscaping on the sides, I feel like I'm high up when I'm on the Huntington platform.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
I would have to kind of agree with Oren. My reasoning is, I define an elevated station as a station where the total length of the platform is supported by columns or an enclosed structures. Station like Fort Totten (B06) and Silver Spring (B08) have parts of their platform on a retained fill. Huntington (C15) has part of it’s platform in the bottom of a partially retained cut.
John
As long as we're discussing distance from surface to platform, let's go the other way... underground. I've been wondering this for a while. Just how deep are the stations at Rosslyn and Pentagon? Same depth, one deeper than the other? I ask because I've heard they're pretty deep under; Rosslyn mostly because of the river tunnels east of the station. But both share the depth, if I'm to be correct, because the outbound tracks dive far underground to allow the inbound tracks of the diverging line to pass overhead to prevent tie-ups resulting from crossing at grade. So, that in mind, I ask are the outbound track just thatmuch deeper, or is it the inbound is closer to the surface, and the stations are just deep underground because that's what WMATA wanted to do.
And before I forget to ask... is there grade separation at F&L Junction (south of L'Enfant Plaza)? From what I recall, the track map we used to have on the site showed grade separation at every junction but that one.
The south third of the platform is on a retained fill.
As long as we're discussing distance from surface to platform, let's go the other way... underground. I've been wondering this for a while. Just how deep are the stations at Rosslyn and Pentagon? Same depth, one deeper than the other?
Rosslyn (C05) is 115' 5" (35.17m) from the surface mezzanine to the upper level inbound track 1 platform. Pentagon (C07) is something around 30’ (9.14m) (I don’t have the exact distance) from the surface to the upper level mezzanine / platform inbound track 1.
I ask because I've heard they're pretty deep under; Rosslyn mostly because of the river tunnels east of the station. But both share the depth, if I'm to be correct, because the outbound tracks dive far underground to allow the inbound tracks of the diverging line to pass overhead to prevent tie-ups resulting from crossing at grade. So, that in mind, I ask are the outbound track just that much deeper, or is it the inbound is closer to the surface, and the stations are just deep underground because that's what WMATA wanted to do.
The tunnels on both ends and under the river as well as the station were excavated out of the bedrock at Rosslyn (C05). The grades on outbound track 2 are slightly steeper between Foggy Bottom-GWU (C04) and Rosslyn (C05), same also applies between Rosslyn (C05) and Court House (K01). If you look down the tunnels to Rosslyn from the west end of Foggy Bottom you can clearly see that outbound track 2 descends on a steeper grade then does inbound track 1. The distance between the upper and lower levels of Rosslyn and Pentagon are roughly 14’ (4.26) (another exact distance I don’t have).
Pentagon (C07) and the connecting tunnels are cut and cover with the exception of the tunnels that pass under VA I-395 between Pentagon (C07) and Pentagon City (C08).
And before I forget to ask... is there grade separation at F&L Junction (south of L'Enfant Plaza)? From what I recall, the track map we used to have on the site showed grade separation at every junction but that one.
All of the junctions are grade separated. Inbound tunnel track L1 ducks under the F route tunnels.
John
Yes, the station is definitely fed by elevated tracks, giving the feeling of being elevated. However, the platform has ground running along both sides of it for the entire length, and the top of the parking structure also is at ground level. Which is a weird feeling, by the way, being very close to the ground the entire way up on all four levels (lower mezzanine, platform, upper mezzanine, top of garage), but traveling VERY far up.
So Huntington is definitely not elevated as we were discussing, but the way the trains arrive at the station gives the feeling of it being elevated.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Very nice picture!
Ben F. Schumin :-)
The last two stations Rhode Island Avenue (B04) and Huntington (C15) are another story.
Because of the way the terrain slopes away at the south mezzanine at Huntington (C15) the south end of the platform is not much more then 40’ (12.19m) above surface grade under the structure.
The distance to the platform above the mezzanine at Rhode Island Avenue (B04) is the lowest of all of the elevated stations. However the distance from the platform to the road surface of Rhode Island Avenue makes it the highest station platform. Figuring roughly 30’ (9.14m) from platform to mezzanine plus another 20’ (6.09m) down to the CSX tracks then 20’ (6.09m) down more to the road surface the total is roughly 70’ (21.33m).
John
here's and explaination of these two bus routes:
1]The 409 runs from Philly to Trenton via Route 130. the travel time is about 2 to 2 1/2 hours. Except for Florence, this bus parallels the RiverLINE from Burlington to Trenton. The rest of the Route runs on Rt. 130.
2]The 419 runs from Philly to Brlington via River Rd [RT. 543- its known by several names as it goes through the various communities]. This line parallels the RiverLINE from Camden to Burlington.
What would you do with these lines? The RiverLINE offers cheaper and more frequent service than these two bus lines, though these routes go directly into Philly, hence during Rush hours, the bus may serve a different market that the LRT.
Any suggestions?
Not to mention that there are lots of parallel NJ Transit bus routes with rail routes to/from big cities, such as routes 108 (Newark-NYC), 112 (Clark-NYC via Elizabeth), 113 (Dunellen-NYC), 114 (Somerville-NYC), 115 (Rahway-NYC) and 116 (Perth Amboy-NYC) that NJT Rail's Newark Division has not hurt or killed.
Considering that the Atlantic City Line hasn't hurt the 554 or 551 any, I'd say no.
For anyone wondering...
551: Greyhound Terminal Philadelphia to Atlantic City and Ocean City via Atlantic City Expressway and Avandale Park & Ride in Sicklerville. Has peak service to Marmora. Runs every 30 minute, except for the hourly overnight trips. OC runs are limited.
554: Lindenwold Station to Atlantic City via U.S. 30 and Pleasantville. Parallels the ACL from Lindenwold to Atlantic City, including DIRECT service into Absecon Station. Doesn't serve Atco, however.
The difference is that the 551 goes directly to Phila, while the 554 parallels the line. Neither are hurt by the line's presence, in fact, tickets for the train to/from Atlantic City are HONORED on 551 trips (AC-Philadelphia rail tickets only, does not apply to Ocean City service) and the 554 for any stations within walking distance of the bus (i.e. AC, Absecon, Egg Harbor City, Hammonton, Lindenwold. NOT 30th Street, Cherry Hill, or Atco).
So... no. The 409 and 419 are fine. A LOT of the 409's ridership base seems to be along U.S 130 in Willingboro. Not sure of the 419, but it'll most likely be kept as an alternative (and for the Cinnaminson Ave/Admiral Wilson Bl/U.S. 130 runs)
Sorry, I don't have any of these, other than what was posted to this site a couple of years ago. Nothing recent, alas.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.6 Now Available!
Thank you for passing this along.
John
http://web.archive.org/web/20000708170833/http://www.nycsubway.org/us/washdc/wash-dc-track.gif
The DC Track Map is dead. Long live the DC track map!
I just have the MU series ... there are missing numbers in them:
83xx through 86xx - M2. The 86xx cars are the bar cars paired with an 85xx car.
87xx - M3.
88xx - M4 or M5 (I forgot which series was omitted).
89xx - M6.
ACMU 100 > 1184
M1's 8200/8300 series
M28400/8500/8600 series
M3's are 8000 > 8124
M4 8800/8900 series
M6 9000 series
M7 4000 series
Bombardiers
6100 H & H end door cars.
6200 CDOT cars
6300/6400 H & H centerdoor
Mark
http://subways2020.tripod.com
Mark
But I made it up for today, with some more Brighton Line photos at Avenue H station. Enjoy!
You just made my afternoon plans...
#3 West End Jeff
I always knew that Avenue H was the best spot on the Brighton line, even better than BeverLEY road.
When I have more time, I will spend a good morning from all angles.
#3 West End Jeff
The last one (#9) also was my favorite photo I took.
I shall be back there real soon.
Just take a look @ http://www.transitgallery.com/data/072b030ba126b2f4b2374f342be9ed44/225_p8937.gif
The easiest way out would seem to apply the names vertically, on the outside of the Circle (to leave room for the Chancery Lane and St. Paul's stations).
Another way would be to move some lines: where there's enough space on the Circle, move some intersecting lines closer to each other. This might need a little more angles on some lines; I'll have to figure out the best way to do it.
Again, this really is no 'serious' attempt. I'm not some mathematician who could apply a magical formula so it would all work out...would be nice though if I were ;-)
http://www.transitgallery.com/data/072b030ba126b2f4b2374f342be9ed44/225_p8939.jpg
I have done essential reading. "Subway lives", "Mole people" (great book about underground dwellers), "NY underground" and I have yet to tackle "Century of Subways" (400+ pages) etc. but the stuff I am looking for isn’t discussed in detail.
Keeping in mind I’ve seen movies like " subway stories", "Money train", "the Italian Job" etc. I will like to ask
A few questions ---
1 What is the maximum speed a train can reach on NYC electrified rails? Which train is the fastest or are they all the same?
2 Money Train --- Still running? ( I personally pay with credit for my metro-card), How much does the train bring in daily? (Guesstimate).
3 "Switch Rooms" at control towers. What do they look like? What exactly do they have in-side them? If someone was to get access, and trip the train’s emergency brake, how long would it take to get the train back up and running again?
4 Is traffic control completely automated? Say someone wants to shut down the entire system ( like in the Italian Job movie), is it as easy as hacking into the system?
I should get my lazy ass and go to the museum in Brooklyn and ask around but since many of you here seem to be well informed, I thought I might give it a shot. Any response will be greatly appreciated.
1. The books you mention are, with the exception of A Century of Subways all works of fiction (although they masquerade as fact). For more factual information on the subway system, consult this site, Clifton Hood's 722 Miles, or any of the other books mentioned in the bibliography section on this site (Stan Fischler's books are generally accurate, although some details are off.)
2. There are revenue collection trains still running in the system, although the majority of revenue collection is now done by armored car on the surface. The trains don't look anything like the one pictured in the movie.
3. Traffic control is manual. There are plans to experiment with an automated system at some point, initially on the Canarsie line I believe, but that's in the future.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
About time that this hissy fit got calmed down, too. It won't solve the problems of no steps/trapdoors for the AE trainsets (which makes regular service at low platforms impossible) nor the width issue on the New Haven Line (where ConnDOT forbids the trainsets to use active-tilt), but it means forward motion as opposed to stagnation or regression.
Thanks for the info, Brian.
It seems to me that there was a lot more expansion in the decades 1860 to 1870 , or 1870 to 1880 than what they are now proposing.
Link is from the LIRR History website.
The Babylon Branch is NOT boring. It's fast, and you can look down at the surroundings instead of just seeing the asses of people's homes.
For the line's volume (very high), it works very well. And it's unique. I'm sick of the plain Jane train stations that other systems have.
Mineola? Dip the road under the tracks, so they can have little lakes cutting the town in 1/2 everytime it rains (Mineola's drainage is notoriously bad). Third track, with a 3 track platform - 2 main, one Oyster Bay, so OB line trains can stop / sit without tieing up everything.
And, can someone explain to me how on earth the OB line is two track to almost the end (with barely enough traffic to justify ONE track), but the KO line has it's single track running? It should be the other way around...
Supposedly, when the LIRR upgraded the Ronkonkoma line back in the 1980's they had the money for single-track electric or double-track non-electric, but not enough for double-track electric.
I also suspect that LIRR management did not anticipate that the electrified Ronkonkoma line would become hugely popular at the expense of Montauk and Pt. Jefferson.
It certainly wasn't a waste of time and pointless on the Babylon Branch, and it won't be pointless and a waste of time on the Mainline either.
As a railfan, I hate that all the stations like Massapequa, Baldwin, Amityville, etc all lost their charm in the grade seperation project, however the rational person in me knows it was a great idea to do it there. The level and type of service that is run on the Babylon Branch would not and could not be the way it is run today if not for the grade seperation. The same is true for the mainline.
How are they dangerous?
Yeah, I hear about fatal crashes all the time at the Wantagh Ave crossing in Wantagh, and the Broadway crossing in Massapequa, and Wellwood Ave in Lindenhurst, and etc, etc, etc....oh wait a minute there are NEVER train-car fatal crashes at those crossings...my mistake.
< /sarcasm >
So I figured. I'm just saying though that if a RR should not have to waste their time inconviniencing their passengers and wasting money just b/c there area a few impatient assholes that will go around the gates.
... and this happened on a regular basis at both Merrick and Massapequa Park (two of the last stations to be elevated) in the 1970's. The Unqua Road crossing in Massapequa Park was particularly treacherous -- and this is before the area was built up commercially to the level that it is today.
CG
There's more to it than that. Grade crossings reduce capacity on a heavily-used line such as the LIRR Main Line because if too many trains are scheduled, the crossing gates stay down too long, causing congestion on the blocked streets. In Mineola, the gates often stay down for five minutes at a time during rush hour. (I've waited there.) I doubt if the LIRR could schedule any additional service on the Main Line even with one or two extra tracks on account of the grade crossings. They really have to go, sooner or later.
On the other hand, the Babylon branch has no grade crossings all through Nassau; the only concern is railroad capacity.
You mean the magical bus that jumps over railroad tracks?
You really have a lot to learn about the real world.
The number of cars, buses, trucks, or whatever is unimportant. The gates stay down because trains are passing. They'll stay down for long periods on account of train traffic, not vehicular traffic. One also has to consider ambulances, fire trucks, and police cars too. They also have to wait for the gates to go up, so someone's life or safety could be endangered in an emergency. One just can't write a train schedule with no regard for vehicular traffic.
Hmmm, why is it that response times have never been an issue or atleast addressed here before? Besides, there are already roads that don't cross the tracks at grade. Yes, there needs to be alteast one road going over the main line every here and there. Those roads exist. This makes it pointless for further grade elimination.
Not true. I've timed it. I remember waiting well over five minutes once. The gates did rise long enough for one car to pass but quickly fell again. Too many trains all at once.
"The only reason traffic gets backed up for so long is b/c of the fact that there are so many cars. So yes, the number of cars/trucks/w/e else IS important. Saying it is unimportant has to be one of the most ignorant statements I've ever read."
Have you ever driven through Mineola during rush hour? I have. Therefore, I stand by my statement. I invite you to drive through Mineola between 5 and 7 PM with a watch and time the gates; you'll see the same thing.
Of course, in many parts of the country it's commonplace to have long freights blocking crossings for prolonged periods.
Good point. I was once in a hurry to get someplace within two or three minutes of a grade crossing upstate. The gates fell and a 200-car freight train passed. Needless to say, I was late.
That's another good reason for grade crossing elimination. Maybe with fewer grade crossings and an extra track or two (or at least some passing sidings) we could have more 200-car freight trains on Long Island instead of clogging our roads with trucks. (A freight tunnel underneath the Hudson River would help too.) With grade crossings, 200-car freight trains are impractical in a congested area such as Long Island.
Long Island no longer has many large-volume shippers who'd make 200-car freights possible. Most of its manufacturers are in industrial parks with no rail sidings. An intermodal terminal might generate considerable freight activity, but it's difficult to imagine one on Long Island without a cross-Harbor tunnel, and maybe not even then.
Any word on any other terminals on the LI. Where would Huntington ferries go??? Any talk about reviving the Glen Cove-Pier 11 ferry? IMO, it should be expanded to serve Stamford-Glen Cove-LGA-34th St-Pier 11
I've lived two blocks away from that intersection for a total of 8 months so far, and know quite well the pain of trying to use that road. The following is a true scenario that has happened on multiple occasions: my family decides to meet for dinner at the Cheesecake Factory. My train gets in to Mineola at 4:00. I get to my house (on the north side of the tracks) around 4:05, and my brother, mother, and I leave the house at about 4:15. My father leaves work in MELVILLE at approximately 4:30. He beats us to the Cheesecake Factory by at least 10 minutes (5:00 vs. 5:10), which is obviously on the south side of the railroad tracks. Where is the logic? What is a 15-minute trip on the weekend extends to a 50-minute drive of agony.
Thanks for the corroboration.
I hereby retract and apologize for the second sentence of the above post. It was completely uncalled for.
CG
Hey, BTW, just wondering....are you related to anyone with the name Chase Rosen, sophmore in high school?
By the way, on the News 12 board there are very few railfans. Don't use railfan jargon or abbreviations there. Nobody there has a clue what NYP or RFM is!!
Ohhhh man. Big mistake. You're lucky I vented yesterday on the news12 board. Also, I'm taking the stance of saving the RR some money. In the case of reviving old lines, it's to open up new rider markets for the RR and to get some cars off the road.
RFM is a general term, not only a railfan term. Also, NYP, that must've slipped b/c I do know that most wont know what it is.
CG
I hope when/if that is ever done, that they put in a crossover at the west end of the station, and build an exit on the west end of Platform A. Despite the fact that people aren't supposed to cut through the Winthrop parking garage, we do it all the time, and the little parking lot right there is LIRR. In addition to being a big boost for us "trespassers" it would have a valid reason to exist.
Not to mention the fact that the third-tracking will take place in congested, high-traffic areas. It'll be a tough project, that's for sure.
CG
None of which is in Westbury. I've seen other articles reference grade crossings in Westbury -- but I don't think there are any.
Am I incorrect?
CG
No wonder his commute takes so long.
Fear of Brooklyn? A perfect example of the P.A.S.S.* rule in action.
* = People Are Such Schmucks
From the publisher's point of view that is good journalism, they do what they have to to sell papers. The press are such whores!!
CG
Is it true the synagogue in Shirley is called the Shirley Temple?
"Surely you must be kidding".
"I'm not kidding and don't call me Shirley".
Because it wouldn't be a good story for the paper. Not only could he take the train to Flatbush but since when have the Sixth & Seventh Avenue subways from Penn stopped going downtown to Lower Manhattan?
["No wonder his commute takes so long."]
Maybe the fact he's coming from Shirley, 80 miles away has something to do with it. Hell, it would take 2 1/2 hours even if the LIRR dropped him off inside his office!!!
The great irony is that with all those projects, the commute won't change one bit for the guy they talk about at the beginning of the article.
The guy is coming in from Shirley. He apparently takes a train to Hunterspoint Avenue, then catches the 7 and then the 4/5.
When East Side Access opens -- he'll have exactly the same commute!! No ESA for the bi-levels and no plans to electrify to Shirley either.
Sure, he could change at Jamaica for a Grand Central train, but he'd still have 3 trains on his commute.
The only way this guy's number of connections is decreased is if they build some kind of lower Manhattan access -- which MTA officials in the story are said to believe is a "pie in the sky" idea. (and that's a good thing, IMnHO).
It's one thing when mainstream journalists don't understand some of the details of transit and print something that is a bit off -- it's another thing entirely when the UTU's own rag can't figure out how things work.
CG
This quote form the article is very promising, and now is the time to do it, as there is still open land around Yaphank and Manorville to build a yard and parking for stations. Medford is mostly built up and Yaphank has one new development after another popping up. Manorville is another area with a building explosion over the last 5-10 years. If they extended electrification to Manorville or Yaphank, those stations would look like every other station on the Mainline west of Ronkonkoma. Medford may even have to be relocated, as I there would be an explosion of cars on Route 112, and the parking lot there wouldn't even begin to be able to handle the cars if hourly service.
I know at least 3 seperate people in Manorville that travel all the way to Ronkonkoma for train service, one in Yaphank, and 2 in Medford that drive to Ronkonkoma for service. And that doesn't even include the countless people I know along the south shore that use the Ronkonkoma branch rather than the Montauk branch because of it's quicker one seat ride. There is no doubt that the finally can't ignore the mainline between Riverhead and Ronkonkoma anymore. It's already long overdue for an increase in service.
It's only necessary as far as Riverhead. In that I agree, but electrification will bring the passnegers, not diesels. The reason the Ronkonkoma is the circus it is today at all the stations is because of the electrification, and one seat ride.
Even though the area is rapidly growing, I doubt it is enough to justify electrification.
Again, certainly not all the way to Greenport. I said to Yaphank or Manorville, not Greanport, (or even Riverhead) for electrification. And yes, the area of Medford, and even to Yaphank is dense enough to warrant electrification. People will come, just like they flocked to Ronkonkoma and west in 1987.
Speaking as a Medford rider, I can only say that people are silly. The change at Ronkonkoma is a simple no-brainer, easier than changing at Jamaica.
On a sidenote, the electrification to at least Yaphank will also give ROcky Point and many north shore residents another option too. East of Route 112 we go from 3 lines to 2, and only one of those two currently provides real service. It really is needed to have normal service east of Ronkonkoma.
Agreed on the need for more service east of Ronkonkoma, but that could be provided without costly electrification, merely by adding a couple of diesel trainsets to the Greenport line, perhaps running as a Riverhead-Ronkonkoma shuttle.
Medford's parking lot could be expanded even further. There's a fair amount of undeveloped land to its east, although some accommodation would have to be made for the Triange Building Products freight ramp. As for the extra traffic on 112 that a larger station would generate, it would be unlikely to make the road nearly as busy as it already is on Saturdays - I usually end up driving on it almost every Saturday, and it's a nightmare. That curving driveway into the station wouldn't be sufficient, however.
Were those actual eliminations or did they never exist with respect to modern roads? What I'm thinking is that many of those roads may have been literally just dirt country lanes until relatively recent times. The grade crossings may have been eliminated when the roads were paved and widened beyond one lane.
CG
Lower Manhattan? What a lopsided proposal. Now give NJT a link to downtown also, and then you could have shared facilities at Hoboken Yard too (may as well keep it open). No, but the Atlantic Avenue Branch has to get there first and give NJ no help, right? Whatever happened to that lost dream of interconnectivity . . . ?
The way this was hyped up, one would think that full electrification was proposed for the entire LIRR system and we would be seeing M7s out to Montauk . . .
http://www.utu.org/worksite/detail_news.cfm?ArticleID=12646
Also, for those of you in the Philadelphia area, is the Phillies new
stadium (the name escapes me) near any of the SEPTA rail lines?
Isn't the new baseball park right next door to Veteran's Stadium?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yeah, I know it would be a lot more useful if Veterans Stadium was in the picture too. But just picture it being about 1000 feet to the right. The new stadiums are SO FAR away from the terminal that, as others have suggested, the BSS should be extended to loop around to the new stadiums.
I saw a Bruce Springsteen concert in Veterans Stadium on a summer evening in 1985. It must have been well over 100 degrees at the field level. The stadium design completely blocked any breezes from outside. I can't imagine what it must have been like to play baseball there.
I got one better, the Miami Arena in downtown Miami currently has no sports teams (after at one time hosting the NBA Heat, NHL Panthers and Univ. of Miami basketball), and there is talk about tearing it down (one scenario has a new baseball stadium for the Marlins being built on the site, but that is highly unlikely). The arena's age? An ancient 15 years old!
Too bad because it is the only sports venue in South Florida directly served by rail (Miami Metrorail has a stop right at the arena, and there is a Metromover station a block away)
<<--I saw a Bruce Springsteen concert in Veterans Stadium on a summer evening in 1985. It must have been well over 100 degrees at the field level. The stadium design completely blocked any breezes from outside. I can't imagine what it must have been like to play baseball there.-->>
And football, at least in September. Not to mention the astroturf, which adds like 20 degrees. :P
Any opinions on this?
I think it would be the 6,C, and B. What do you think they should be?
My three are #7 Flushing Line from Queensboro to Times Square.
#4 Lex Express from Atlatntic Avenue to 161st Street.
and:
#2 Broadway/7th Avenue from Grand Army Plaza (relay east of Eastern Parkway) to the Hub in the Bronx.
All major roads into Queensboro, the Hub, Grand Army Plaza, and Atlantic and Flatbush would be bus/van/car service only. You'd transfer there and ride in. At 24 trains per hour, those trains alone could probably get everyone to work over a five hour rush hour. It would be sheer hell, but the city wouldn't collapse.
My argument has been that enough managers should be trained to provide at least that amount of service in a strike. That much is owed to the customers, given that the subway is a near monopoly of an essential service -- travel to work in Manhattan. In all likelihood, however, no service would be provided.
If they actually tried to keep the city running during a strike with limited service, I'd imagine events like weekday Yankee games would have to be cancelled.
The Malbone St experience should have created enough of an impression on any transit management not to try such an experiment.
7
D
NO fantasy routes. Ex. J train on the Lex.
Express/Local and route coverage rules are in effect.
Routes are considered as is.
Question is, is there street parking around the Trenton end of the River Line? Is the neighborhood safe? NJT's website lists various parking facilities along the River Line, but they look like they don't accomodate that many cars, and as a result could be full after 9:00. The fact that Good Friday is a half-holiday might help.
My tentative itinerary, time permitting, whether I use the NYC subway/NJT or Honda Accord to Trenton is:
-River Line to Camden.
-PATCO to Lindenwold, then back to Market East.
-BSL Ridge Spur to Fern Rock (hopefully being able to change to a BSL express across the platform along the way).
-BSL express, then Ridge Spur back to Market East.
-MFL to 69th Street.
-Route 100 to Norristown, then back to 69th OR Route 101 to Media, then back to 69th, OR both if time permits.
-MFL to City Hall, then walk to PATCO terminal at Locust & 15th(?).
-PATCO to Camden.
-River Line to Trenton.
-NJT/NYC Subway or Honda Accord back to NYC.
I keep reading conflicting reports on what you can or can't ride on SEPTA's $5.50 Daypass. Based on posts from other Subtalkers, you can use it on Route 101 between 69th and Springfield, but not Media. It is good on Route 100 at all? At this point, I don't figure on using Regional Rail- except perhaps the R6 as a shortcut from Market East to Norristown if schedules and Daypass permit. Every previous time I used Daypass, you could only use it on off-peak Regional Rail as the last leg of your trip. The conductor would always take it at that point. Has this changed since January '00? Would I be leaving the paid SEPTA fare zones enough times to make the Daypass worthwhile?
Thanks in advance for any answers or advice.
The day pass can be used for one one-way train trip, excluding Trenton, any time. The train conductor punches the pass to show that the train trip was used.
Your first token would cover everything until you paid to exit at Norristown or Media, then paid to get back on. If you did both Norristown and Media, the day pass would definitely be more economical.
Anyway, as you might have guessed, you have to figure out how to reroute the trains. Here are some other things you need to take into consideration:
* 12-9 at South Ferry, of all places
* Scheduled track work at the West 4th Street interlocking (Switches being replaced)
* Police investigation (unrelated to bomb scare) at East Broadway
* Gap filler malfunction at 14th Street-Union Square, downtown local track
Fortunately, by 7 PM, the bomb squads find that the scare was a hoax, and they conclude that there is no bomb at Penn Station.
This time, not only do you have to account for the subways, but also have to account for the services that would otherwise use Penn Station.
Amtrak trains diverted to Grand Central. NE Corridor trains from NJ will end at Newark-Penn for PATH and bus connections. NJT service to Hoboken or Newark only.
1: 242 to Times Square, via express southbound and local northbound. Shuttle buses from Chambers/IND station to SF.
2: 241 to 96th st and Flatbush to 14th st/7th Ave
3: Suspended, bus service from 148 to 135
4: Woodlawn to Grand Central, via express, and New Lots to Brooklyn Bridge/CH, via local in Brooklyn
5: Dyre to East 180th st, no Manhattan or Brooklyn service
6: PBP to GCT via. local. Peak express service in the Bronx suspended
7: Full normal service
S: Full normal service
Now, you didn't specify which switches at West 4th st are being replaced. (N/B 6th Ave express to local double X-over, S/B 6th Ave express to local dounble X-over, express relay at the 6th Ave "dash", 6th Ave to 8th Ave local tracks on both sides south of West 4th st.)
Until I get more details, I will submit my IRT and railroad emergency plans for now.
No scheduled switch replacement would be going on during the AM rush. Maybe you should change that to "Emergency" work.
Dude, I think you went overboard. You pretty much killed every line at some point except for the Broadway line.
While work would never happen during rush hour, switches are usually REMOVED while the trackbed is cut out. So, he could be saying that there is no possible way to route trains between the 2 lines. (As the regular in-service track is the one that is kept in place).
In that case, run all A and C trains along 6 Ave between 59th st and Jay St. With A's Running on 6th ave Express.
Switch replacement SUSPENDED (not that it actually stood a chance of happening - this is a 2 or 3-weekend-long project).
E. B'way PD investigation - limited to platform and mezz - F service normal, bypassing E. B'way
1 - short-lined to TS. S/b normal to 72, then express to 42; n/b local from 42.
2 - rerouted via Lexington Ave.
3 - split service. 148 - 96 AND New Lots - 14 St: n/b local from Chambers to 14; s/b via express.
4 - normal service.
5 - shuttle Dyre to E.180.
6 - normal, bypass Union Sq.
E - rerouted via 6th Ave from 5 Ave to W. 4 St; local in Queens.
V - SUSPENDED
A/C - split service.
North section: 207 - 59 St via local. C trains to be laid up upon arrival at 168.
South section: 14 St - south terminal via express. C trains to be laid up upon arrival at Euclid.
LIRR - terminate at Jamaica and/or reroute to Flatbush
NJT - terminate at Newark Penn
AmTrak - terminate/short-turn wherever. Empire corridor and Boston trains arrive at GCT.
Didn't finish the bottom part of the 2, but I think you see where I was going with it.
Also didn't finish the top portion of the 3, basically it runs peak direction express in the Bronx from 3/149 to E 180th (using the switches south of E 180) then terminates at 238th.
Probably of more relevance to you guys in the US is the FT's take on the subject - right here.
So now a question too . Is the Fulton/Brooklyn a trunk line or a branch line of the 8th Ave trunk line >
1) trunk lines are generally served by all branch lines. In the case of the 8th Av line, this would be the A, C and E lines and their respective branches. Since the E doesn't travel on the Fulton St line, this makes this line a branch rather than a trunk.
2) It was, as far as I have understood, that trunk lines in the NYC subway system are those lines that run below 59 St and IN (or underneath) Manhattan (except for the G, of course). So that would make only the 6,7 and 8 Av, the Broadway line, the Lex, the 42 St, the Canarsie and the Nassau St lines trunk lines, and all the other lines branch lines.
I'm not entirely sure on this, however, so I stand corrected if this is not (entirely) true.
Bro. Elias, among others, has a strange sense of humor :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Mark
Mark
(Looking at a Krustyburgers-in-the-US map): "hey, there's a NEW Mexico!" ;-)
But Philadelphia, Mississippi is never called "Philly" by people who live there. That helps me keep the two towns straight when I'm talking to folks back home...if I say "Philly" they know I'm talking about PA.
Mark
Bro. Elias, among others, has a strange sense of humor :-)
: )
A LARGE tiger named Timothy guards the gate of the wine cellar. I tell people that he checks ID cards, and eats those under 21. That kinda diverts those under 21 from attempting a purchase.
The floor in the wine cellar is untreated raw wood. There is a huge stain on he where I dropped a case of red wine. I tell them that that is all that's left of the last kid that tried to bluff his way past Timothy.
: ) Elias
This may have started as a typo but it has become sort of an inside joke on here...
You will also notice PROFF instead of "proof" and FUDE instead of "food" amongst others.... I may be wrong but IMO these all started as typos but then took on a life of their own on here...
I also wonder about this because I often think about what corridors in Philly would be good for crosstown light rail routes that might supplement the subways. One fantasy route I have in mind would run along Washington Ave, across the Schuylkill on Gray's Ferry, then up 52nd street to City Ave. In this scheme, the location of Ellsworth-Federal is really problematic.
Not that this line would ever be built, but it's fun to think about.
Mark
When the BSS was designed in the early 1920's, Washington Ave. was occupied by street-running freight trackage (B & O, PRR?), with a number of industrial spurs. There's probably still plenty of remnants from this in the pavement. Anyhow, this was probably the main reason that Union Traction could not or would not seek a streetcar franchise on Washington Ave.
There was a PRT car line (64) on Ellsworth & Wharton Sts. at the time. This is evidently the predecessor to your 64 bus.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Mark
Chuck Greene
By the time the city was planning the BSS, the company was Philadelphia Rapid Transit Company.
Union Traction went bankrupt and was reorganized as PRT in 1902.
Right, but the 64 streetcar line dated to 1898, when Union Traction Co. was the operator. It was they who did not set up a surface car franchise on Washington Ave. for whatever reason, as related to the original inquiry.
BSS was entirely a function of the City of Philadelphia from the beginning in 1918 (still is), with PRT/PTC/SEPTA supplying crews and personnel.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Lots of fun is just ahead for us.
Is there a schedule for these trains, specifically which lines they will be used on and the times?
I haven't ridden an R1/9 in revenue service since they were taken off the F line in 1974 in favor of the R44-46. I was nine then and still remember the "hissing" of the doors when they opened, the yellow bulb lighting, the wicker seats and the whirring of the exposed fans.
I wouldn't worry too much. You worry too much, especially about this.
1) when will this undoubtedly most historical event take place (date: MMDDYY)? and
2) who will be the lucky poster to be honored with the Grand Prize: an all-inclusive, VIP ride on the first train to run along the full length SAS (I won't be paying for it)? ;-)
Now I'm not expecting exact calculations or scientifically justifiable answers, just a good guess will do...
My guess: 071606, poster: ...??? (could be me)
The poster will probably be American Pig
June 15, 2005 15:36:25 EDT.
Or whatever porcine-related handle he'll be using.
You don't know me too well I guess. :)
Mark
Laughing......................................................
Crying........................................................
Such a funny joke.............................................
;D
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
As always here I get blamed for things other people do.
That's probably the one I remembered.
Even with the prolific posters that inhabit SubTalk, I doubt it's even a slim possibilty.
It took from 1998 to 2004 to reach 500,000 posts, and that's with a lot more DefJef type posters.
My original estimate assumed about 4000 per week, which I see now is too high, although as someone else pointed out, the rate of postings will probably increase with the Subway Centennial coming up.
Pretty slim would give it too much of a chance of happening....
More likely to happen:
76th St. used as a museum annex, in time for the Centennial Celebration.
MOD trips taking a lunch break at City Hall station, (and the 6 train SUSPENDED for this.)
The second system coming to life, with R-32s as the dedicated fleet. (arnines were too obvious a choice.)
Amtrak becoming profitable.
90% of posts on topic. (this one now is!!!!)
Ahhh. I could go on....
VIDEO! Looks like the trolley's TECO and Little Rock will use too, with slight differences!
From TV
*****
Thwp-thwp . . . Thwp-thwp.
That's the new sound coming from Madison Avenue. It's the noise of car tires crossing rail tracks at intersections from Main to Cleveland.
It sounds like the future.
The Memphis Area Transit Authority opens the 2-mile, $56 million Madison Avenue Line on Monday.
The project is on time and $19 million under budget.
*******
You have to register for the newspaper site, but at least it's reprinted in the link.
Is there anymore sites or info on this? This sure isn't getting coverage.
I visit Memphis about once per year. I've ridden the older downtown trolley line, and I can't wait til the modern light rail airport line gets built. Here's a map showing the Madison Ave trolley route from the Memphis Area Transit Authority, and here's the official blurb about the airport line:
73% of Memphis Residents Favor Completion Of Light-Rail System to Memphis Int'l Airport
Mark
Toronto T1:
Length: 22787mm (74'9)
Wheelbase: 16459mm (54')
Truck to Front: 3164mm (10' 4 1/2")
Truck Length: 2082mm (6'10")
Height: 3658mm (12')
Truck width: 1473mm (4'10")
Width: 3134mm (10'3 3/8")
Per car, in a 6 car configuration
Thanks,
B Bonnici
Hey I used to think about London Tube trains running in the A-Division tunnels - until I saw that they had no railfan windows.
A) ] ]
IINM, the London Subsurface trains (the non-Tube trains) also use the 4th rail.
Toronto T1:
Length: 22787mm (74'9)
Wheelbase: 16459mm (54')
Truck to Front: 3164mm (10' 4 1/2")
Truck Length: 2082mm (6'10")
Height: 3658mm (12')
Truck width: 1473mm (4'10")
Width: 3134mm (10'3 3/8")
Per car, in a 6 car configuration
They would likely fit on the Baltimore and Miami metro lines as well as the Los Angles Red Line, The extra 85.72mm (3 3/8") I don’t think would be a problem. You got to remember that it’s only 42.86mm (1 11/16") added to each side of the car.
Now WMATA you can forget it as they are 330.2mm (13") to tall.
John
I answered your question.
Besides, 4 centimetres aren't going to create that many sparks....
Oh yes, in Toronto our stops are different too, ours are on the right side and they are nowhere near that high, they rase to about 5 cm above track level.
< Aren't the track gauges different? NYCT uses standard 1435mm gauge while Toronto uses something like 1500mm? > I answered your question.
Besides, 4 centimetres aren't going to create that many sparks....
Oh yes, in Toronto our stops are different too, ours are on the right side and they are nowhere near that high, they rase to about 5 cm above track level.
NYC: 1435mm (4' 8 1/2")
Toronto: 1495mm (4' 10 7/8")
Yes, the diffence matters.
Matthew Mummert
The inch is defined as 1 in = 25.4 mm exact. All US Customary/British Imperial linear measure is defined from the metre through the above formula.
Anyway, 58.875 in * 25.4 mm/in = 1495.425 mm
Rounding off, you get 1495 mm.
Matthew Mummert
How about real seating, of the kind you find on the occasional H4 that comes along? The kind that used to be found on the Gloucsters, Montrealers and the H1s and the H2s as well. The kind of seating that has padded cushions. Especially the on the Gloucsters. Not only were the seats well padded, but the armrests had little cushions on them, too. This is the kind of interior I'd like to the TTC bring out. Do you remember when riding subway trains used to be comfortable?
-Robert King
R-32.
Matthew Mummert
March 17, 2004
Amtrak, Bombardier/Alstom settle dispute
Amtrak and the consortium of Bombardier/Alstom have reached an out-of-court settlement of their legal dispute involving the $1.2 billion procurement of 20 Acela Express high speed trainsets and 15 HHP8 electric locomotives for the Northeast Corridor.
Under the terms of the settlement, both parties will drop all claims. Amtrak will pay up to $42.5 million of $70 million in payments it has withheld from the consortium. A 10-year maintenance contract entered into last year with Northeast Corridor Maintenance Service Company (NECMSC) for the trainsets will be terminated in October 2006 instead of 2013, with Amtrak assuming all responsibility for maintenance at that time.
In November 2001, Bombardier filed a lawsuit against Amtrak in U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia seeking damages. Amtrak promptly countersued, seeking its own damages. The settlement, said Amtrak President and CEO David Gunn, is a better outcome than "continuing to spend unnecessary time and money on costly and attention-diverting litigation." He said that efforts now will instead be focused "on improving the performance of Acela Express and delivering the best service we know how for the passengers who enjoy and depend on it."
Bombardier President and CEO Paul Tellier said the consortium is satisfied with the out-of-court settlement and "will respect Amtrak’s strategy to provide maintenance services and will take the necessary steps to ensure a seamless transition between now and October 2006." NECMSC will continue to provide parts and technical advice to Amtrak’s mechanical department during the transition period.
The Acela Express program has been trouble-plagued since shortly after its inception in 1996, when Amtrak awarded the Bombardier/Alstom consortium a performance-based contract for the equipment and its operation and maintenance, which included construction of three specialized maintenance facilities in Boston, New York, and Washington, D.C. First, there was the discovery that the carbodies were slightly wider than specifications called for, limiting the degree of tilting the trainsets could accomplish through some curves. This was followed by discovery during testing of excessive truck hunting and wheel wear. Resolution of that issue postponed revenue service for several months. Then, shortly after the first trainsets were placed into service in December 2000, cracks were discovered on locomotive yaw-damper brackets, which caused the entire fleet to be pulled from service for further modifications. There were numerous other small but annoying technical glitches—locomotive roof shrouds that broke off during operation, door problems, etc. ("Crapper doors that don’t work," David Gunn quipped at one point.) Blame flew back and forth, with the consortium at one point alleging that Amtrak had provided inaccurate data regarding the Northeast Corridor infrastructure’s ability to handle high speed equipment designed to operate at speeds up to 150 mph.
Amtrak’s customers, though, didn’t seem to notice.
All the technical glitches have been addressed, and the Acela Express service continues to grow in popularity. Thirteen daily roundtrips are now in service between New York and Washington, D.C.; 10 between New York and Boston. More than six million passengers have used the service since its introduction.
(BTW, I'm still waiting for "tuscan red" to be re-introduced at Amtrak. I recall reading that Gunn hand-picked what's now known as the "redbird" scheme.)
F:
Roosevelt Leave: 1721 W4 Leave: 1744+, 23 and a half minutes
E:
Roosevelt Leave: 1723 W4 Leave: 1749, 26 minutes
Here are some photo of our LRV's out here in Sacramento, CA.
The first photo is a 1987 Siemens Duewag U2A model. Although the headsign say "Watt/I-80", but this train is heading to Matherfield
ligth rail station. next, the second photo is an interior shot of our new CAF LRV's and the last photo is a two-car CAF train in service
heading outbound toward the Meadowview Station on the new South Line extension.
enjoy!
I also think the city could do more to make the most of their rail system by developing their downtown more...you know, put in residences and the like to build the kind of city that can make the best use of transit. Downtown seemed kind of dead as it was.
But the hostel there is pretty cool. It's a well-kept old victorian mansion, and nicer than some hotels I've stayed in.
Mark
Here's my question: how would they go about issuing a transfer from bus to rail (or vice versa) without having to swipe the card twice, thus paying a double fare? they can't eliminate transfers.
* ryan
They don't. You can transfer from any bus to any subway. I can use my card on the N95 and then get on the subway at Van Cortlandt Park within 2 hours, and it'll be free.
Not true.
Long Island Bus transfers to the subway will only work from the line which directly transfers to the subway and only at the subway station where they connect.
Just this morning I swiped on the N14 at 6:25 and then again on the 1/2/3/9 at 7:10 -- cost me 4 bucks.
Your statement is true, I believe, for any of the routes in the city.
CG
Not true, for example with N20/21 you get a free (totally, as it leaves another one) transfer at Main Street, not anywhere else. Tried it today at 34th & 8th.
Arti
Replace N95 with Q22 and we're in business.
A bomb threat traces the intended target as Jamaica station. Not knowing which part of Jamaica, authorities shutdown the LIRR Jamaica hub, the E/J/Z and Airtrain. Turns out the caller, tells the police that it's ANY station in Jamaica, so the E and F are impassable beyond Union Turnpike as well. At the same time, a 12-9 occurs on a diverted #1 train entering 96th st on the express track, effectively cutting off the 96th st interlocking switch in the S/B direction, no S/B trains are passable at this point. The 12-9 is so bad, that power is cut off to N/B side as well, both sides shutdown at 96th st
Finally a homeless man wanders just outside Queens Plaza and starts to throw trash on the tracks. Some of the trash sparks a bad fire, smoke billows through 53rd, 60th, and Crosstown tubes. Queens Plaza, 23rd-Ely, and Court Sqaure are evacuated due to the heavy smoke. Also another fire at Jay Street/IND, shuts that station for good too.
Now what would you do?
Also include the plans for all LIRR service as well.
The subways cannot go to Staten Island. LOL
6. Arrange Police at 23rd-Ely or Court Square to have the homeless man arrested.
Regards,
Jimmy
1: 242-137, busstitution between 137 and 103 Street C train station, 42 Street to South Ferry.
2: Some trains Bronx to Central Park North.
3: Penn Station to New Lots Avenue
4: Normal service
5: Full service to Flatbush.
6: Normal service
7: Normal service
9: SUSPENDED
A: Inwood to World Trade Center, Utica to Queens.
B. Normal service
C: Single track shuttle from Hoyt to Utica.
D: Normal Service
E: SUSPENDED
F: Kew Gardens to East Broadway, 4 Avenue to Gravesend
G: Nassau Avenue to Smith-9th Sts
J: Broad Street to 121 Street, free transfer to Q56.
L: Normal service
M: Normal service
N: Times Square to Brooklyn, Queensboro Plaza to Astoria.
Q: Times Square to Brooklyn, but with reduced service.
R: Normal service, except trains run via the 63 Street Tunnel.
V: SUSPENDED
W: SUSPENDED
Z: See J.
A shuttle bus would run between Central Park North and Cathedral Parkway B/C service. Busstitution would be done between Canal Street A/C/E and Utica Avenue (express stops after Hoyt). Busstituion would also occur between Union Turnpike and 179 Streets, with the MTA and Green Bus Lines coordinating (hopefully) to reroute Q60 buses to serve Jamaica Center, for busstitution down the E, special Q60s doing these runs.
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
Now how are you going to deal with the LIRR trains that are heading into Jamaica station?
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
All Queens Blvd trains will be turned around at 71-Continental to allow clear tracks for any possible evacuation/rescue attempts if neccesary. Have to go by word. But since we have the fire at QP, we have to get FDNY down there and fast. Have NYPD check all exits for the homeless man and arrest him. For the trains, E and V service will be temporarily suspended. F trains will turn at 21 St-Queensbridge and head back to Brooklyn. W service will be suspended and all R trains rerouted to 21 St-Queensbridge. J trains will operate only between Broadway Jct and Broad Street until it is confirmed all stations East of Cypress Hills are considered safe. Then allow trains to operate up to 121 St until situation is solved.
On the LIRR side, several trains will be combined and only 1 train at a time will be allowed through Jamaica station but not stopping in any direction. All diesels will be sent via the Montauk Division to Long Island City for ferry connections and subway service into Manhattan. There will be increased A train service out of the Rockaways and Lefferts Blvd as LIRR commuters hop on some buses to get to any nearby subway line. Trains heading to Flatbush Ave will be suspended. Penn Station bound trains will turn back at Hunters Point Ave. Don't want to take chances with the East River tunnels and Penn Station. Port Washington trains will turn back at Woodside and will have limited service between Woodside and Port Washington.
It's a messy flex, I'll admit to that. But the railroad's gotta keep running. I feel a lot of buses and taxis and dollar cabs in here.
Being I'm not sure what a 12-9 is, I'll compensate and have shuttle train service on Metro-North between GCT and Riverdale and Wakefield.
Regards,
Jimmy
Regards,
Jimmy
So when we talk about the next 12-9, it involves either a jumper or a person shoved onto the tracks.
Regards,
Jimmy
BMT/IND
(A) 207 - Chambers
(A)<A> Hoyt - Fulton Lcl - Queens termini
(B) normal service
(C) 168 - WTC (for Brooklyn service use A train)
(D) normal service
(E) suspended
(F) 179 - York
(G) Nassau - Av X
(J)(Z) cut back to 121st St, skip-stop operating throughout day
(L) normal service
(M) normal service
(N)(W) normal service
(Q) cut back to 42nd St
(R) via 63rd St
(S) (both of them) normal service
(V) suspended
LIRR
Port Washington Branch - normal service
All other branches turn short of Jamaica, no service to Flatbush, Hunterspoint, or LIC. Shuttle buses Rosedale (or Valley Stream or wherever there's a crossover) to East New York for J/L/Z trains. Shuttle buses from QBP - Queens Blvd - LIE - Cross Island Parkway for all other LIRR service.
Airtrain
All Jamaica Trains run instead to Howard Beach.
LIRR trains operate as follows:
I know nothing about the LIRR trackage, so I'm only dealing with the portion west of Jamaica.
-Woodhaven to Flatbush
-Penn Station to Great Neck
-Hunterspoint Avenue to Port Washington
-Long Island City to Richmond Hill (making all stops)
A: Hoyt-Schermerhorn - Far Rockaway, all stops
B: 168 Street - Brighton Beach, local north of 34/6
C: Utica Avenue - Lefferts Blvd, express Utica-Euclid
D: 205 Street to Coney Island
E: Union Turnpike - World Trade Center, via 63 St/6 Av. All stops, except Queens-bound trains skip 75 Av
F: suspended completely
G: Greenpoint Avenue - Avenue X
J: Cypress Hills - Chambers Street
L: 8 Avenue - Rockaway Parkway
M: Metropolitan Avenue - Bay Parkway
N: 59 St/Lexington Ave - 86 Street, local
P: 207 Street - 121 Street, with the following stops:
207 Street
Dyckman Street
191 Street
181 Street
175 Street
168 Street
145 Street
125 Street
59 Street
42 Street/8 Avenue
34 Street/Penn Station
Broadway Junction
121 Street
via Washington Heights, 8 Avenue, Houston Street, Chrystie, Williamsburg, Broadway Brooklyn, Jamaica Ave.
Q: 57 St/7 Av - Brighton Beach
R: 57 St/7 Av or 59 St/Lex Av (50/50 split) - 95th Street/4th Avenue
All S shuttles run normal
V: 71 Avenue-York Street, via 63 St tunnel
W: Ditmars Boulevard - Queensboro Plaza
Z: suspended completely
1: 242 Street - 125 Street/Broadway
2: 241 Street - 110 Street/Lenox Avenue
3: 148 Street - 110 Street/Lenox Avenue
4: Woodlawn - New Lots Avenue, local in Brooklyn
5: Dyre Avenue or 238 Street - 72 Street/Broadway, as follows:
Runs normal between the Bronx and Bowling Green. From there, train runs through South Ferry Loop to Broadway Line, makes local stops up to 72nd Street. Train reverses using crossovers south of 72nd Street, and operates downtown via the uptown express track. Train runs express to Chambers, then local via South Ferry to Bowling Green, then normal to Bronx.
6: Pelham Bay Park or Parkchester - Brooklyn Bridge
7: Main Street - Times Square
?: 42 Street/Times Square - Flatbush Avenue. All stops between Chambers and Flatbush; express northbound and local southbound between Chambers and 34th.
9: Suspended(?)
This'll take you a few weeks.
Any way you want me to.
Hylan broke balls with the BRT/BMT, but BMT projects put on hold due to Hylan got done when he left office, and the IND was well underway.
If you could go back to the 1920's, don't bother with Moses or Hylan. You'd be better off going to Germany to kill Hitler.
In Transit: The Transport Workers Union in New York City, 1933-1966
$9
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The Mole People: Life in the Tunnels Beneath New York City
First Edition
$12
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Please Buy From me "Seller: karierae " using the button on right side of page Please.
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I don't know how long this has been the case or if it's been implemented systemwide yet, but I tested it successfully at three MVM's at Times Square and one at 96/Broadway.
The MEM's, of course, still don't sell SingleRides, and the minimum purchase is still $4.00. I don't know if they (or the MVM's, for that matter) permit credit card refills of under $4.00.
Doesn't make a difference to me, since on the rare occasion I'm not using an unlimited I buy my MetroCards in increments of $10 or more, but some might find it useful.
If imposing a minimum is illegal, then there must be a law against imposing a minimum. Is this a city, state, or federal law? Do you have a cite?
Somehow I doubt it. Perhaps the MTA was violating a contract, or perhaps not (and I strongly suspect the latter, since if not surely the other party to the contract would have sued by now, and I haven't heard anything about a suit), but see the second sentence here.
My attitude is I use my credit cards everywhere they are taken for as small an amount as they are taken. Several times, somebody has tried to pull this minimum crap on me, I reach into my wallet and show the document I received from visa indicating it is illegal to set a minimum for use of a credit card (or charge a surcharge for use of a credit card)....sometimes the person (usually a manager at a big store mutters under his breath) but they always take the credit card.
One time, I was in a grocery and after ringing up the order (I think it came to $4.23), I was told by the cashier the credit card machine was down....I told her to process it manually, she said she couldn't do it. I told her I don't walk around with that much cash so out I walked leaving her the problem of undoing the ringing up of the order. And can you imagine, the customers behind me actually glared at me as if I had done something wrong.
Oh well, it takes all kinds to make up a world
And cashback awards? Good ploy, now you're paying face value as if Credit Cards were never invented.
*One time, I was in a grocery and after ringing up the order (I think it came to $4.23), I was told by the cashier the credit card machine was down....I told her to process it manually*
Manually as in by phone? The customers probalby would've beat you then. Those things can take 5-20 minutes, sometimes longer. Would you have cursed out the cashier when the manual verifiers asked to speak to you?
You're right, it does take all kinds, and I think all kinda are a bunch of looneys.
To my knowledge, this is not done. Ever. Visa and MasterCard have too much clout to have to stoop to that level. The MTA was almost certainly violating the merchant agreement. (I used to have a merchant account; I got a flyer from MasterCard reminding me that minimums and surcharges were OUT.) I hope someone complained and got after the MTA-- credit card minimums are one of my pet peeves, especially at an automated machine such as an MVM. The machine is there anyway; letting someone make a $2 purchase with a credit card harms no one. Maybe the poor guy just got mugged and all he has left is a credit card and the booth is closed and he has to get home.
In general, I hate minimums and surcharges on credit cards for two reasons. First, it shows the merchant isn't playing by the rules, which isn't fair to those who do play by the rules and shows a basic lack of trustworthiness. Second, when I see the Visa or MasterCard logo, I don't want to have to read the fine print to see if I can really use it or not-- and Visa and MasterCard don't want me to have to worry about that either. Either you accept it or you don't.
What's wrong with him putting $4 on a MetroCard?
I have confirmed that the MEM's will allow a PPR to be refilled with $2.00, payable with an ATM/Credit Card.
This morning, my B was running about ten minutes late, possibly more, due to switch problems at 125. (I got to 59 at 7:28; a B train is scheduled to arrive at 7:30, but nothing arrived on the local track until close to 7:40, when its follower is scheduled to arrive.) It still had to wait for access to the terminal -- and, no, not for a crossing local. How could the pocket have been occupied? The train that was scheduled to be there at the time was the train I was riding! (If it's a clue, the only northbound during the wait was a B on the local track.)
And couldn't the recurring problem be solved simply by cutting two minutes or so from the B's scheduled southbound run? In effect, the train always reaches the interlocking a few minutes before it's scheduled to arrive at Brighton Beach, so it has nowhere to go. (Maybe the problem doesn't exist in the afternoon rush, when crowds are larger, but in the morning and early afternoon I can't think of a single ride I've had on the B or diamond-Q that didn't wait at least a minute outside the terminal.)
Perhaps "Ladies and gentlemen, we expect to be moving shortly" is the catch-all for everything. Perhaps "we will be moving at all deliberate speed" ... after all, TRUTH is no longer a part of the American consciousness. :(
I'd love to never be informed of a delay -- because I'd love for my train to never be delayed. If it is delayed, tell me!
Brooklyn-bound passengers at Columbus Circle were instructed to use the A, D, or E as an alternative. If I want to go to Brooklyn on the B, the D is of no help (unless I'm going specifically to Atlantic). If I want to go to Brooklyn on the C, chances are I'm going to a local stop, or else I'd gladly take an A in any case. And since when does the E stop at Columbus Circle?
DAs make there announcements at several stops at a time. So the instruction to take the E was probably directed at 42nd and 50th, while those to take the A apply to 59th.
Well, on a airplane they dont tell you that your plane is crashing into the ocean. They tell you that the plane is making a water landing. If you havent ridden a airplane then you would question the relevance of that responce yourself.
Brooklyn-bound passengers at Columbus Circle were instructed to use the A, D, or E as an alternative. If I want to go to Brooklyn on the B, the D is of no help (unless I'm going specifically to Atlantic). If I want to go to Brooklyn on the C, chances are I'm going to a local stop, or else I'd gladly take an A in any case.
I think the C's a better choice. Unless you want to save those prescious two minutes
And since when does the E stop at Columbus Circle?
Since when does the E stop in Brooklyn (non emergency GO's)
should come up with a better name for it, too.
What does this mean? That the nearly-canned announcements come from a person dedicated to the task, holed up in some far-and-away location? That the announcers themselves are dedicated employees? That the program as a whole is dedicated?
I find it odd whenever "B trains are running at slower speeds" as announced at 81st, but C trains apparently are running down the same track at full speed without smacking into anything.
(Well, except for that stupid timer south out of 81st.)
Mark
LOL!
--Mark
--Mark
How about "running less frequently?" That seems to be what the announcements MEAN, even more than "delay" would, and certainly more than "slower" does.
Mark
I love it when they tell us that the A train is running at slower speeds, and as an alternative they suggest we take the C train. How about those of us going north of 168th??? Sometimes, I wish the C train ran all the way to 207th at all times.
The article frequently uses the expression "four-trippers". This refers to R-33's 9326-9334 which had trip cocks on both sides of their trucks. A single four-tripper was added to both the front and rear of any IRT car movement that had to move on BMT or IND lines.
I don't think that I have ever seen the term "four-tripper" ever used on this board.
Did the use of this term die out over the years?
Have a Safe One
Robert
Yeah, I know, I know ... it's still insane. And to think - a fully republican country, republican state and this "PC qwap" is being enforced by the very party that recoils at the "PC" moniker. Or is that Monica? Sheesh. Bunch of unterminated angle cocks. :(
Using a four-tripper as the lead car on a IRT movement on BMT-IND trackage insures that the train cannot run through red signals.
I was surprised to see, as part of the movie, subway footage of an F train bound for Coney Island. There was a great shot of the rear of an F train traveling away from the camera. There were also several scenes of the two stars, Brittany Murphy, and Dakota Fanning actually riding in a subway car.
The film included in the background the el in Coney Island including sound effects.
It's always a pleasure to see "subways" in Hollywood movies.
I observed the 5:41 out of WRTC, and on the two-car train, the seats were filled in 75% of the train, with only the rear half of the second car with a few people on it, the first car had almost all of the seats occupied.
This tells me that the line, in only one week seems to be meeting an unmet need somewhere in its service area, and it must be getting converts from somewhere, whether it is bus rider, or drivers.
I have to assume that fares for other options will increase fromtime to time, too, and the price of driving is going nowhere but up and going there fast. So the RiverLINE might remain a relative bargain. In my opinion the real question is whether it will draw enough riders even with the low fares. I'm hoping it does, but I think it will take time for ridership to reach to satisfactory levels, if that indeed ever happens.
Mark
David
As far as the R40m were concerned, I don't think receiving new floors delayed their transfer considering as of 2/20/04 when the preceding pictures were taken, these R40ms were not changed.
Yes, much to my chagrin. I wish they wouldn't do that.
But I ride the line on a daily basis, and I've started to appreciate the practice. R-40M's shake and have uncomfortable seats. With R-42's scattered like the wind, it's easier to find a train with one pair of comfortable R-42's. When an R-40M set pulls in, I scan the beltline for wide R-42 ridges.
Speaking of which, 4947 -- at the C/R's position on a B train yesterday -- was a dark car. Only the lights across from the cabs and one light in the middle were working. The C/R appeared confused that the car actually had a full seated load of passengers.
He didn't say that, they're only assigned to Jamaica & Pitkin right now. BTW the F is based out of Jamaica.
What's your favorite place to take a photo in the Subway System?
Line? Station? etc.
If I were to pick a line it'd be a tie between Brighton and Flushing.
Station... I'd say either Junction blvd or Beverley Road.
How about you?
Also the Broadway El. Probably the best looking elevated stations in the system (west of Eastern Pkwy).
Also you have the Wmsburg which doesn't hurt.
...The Broadway El, I'll just have to agree with that!! My favorite line.
Interesting el, well kept stations - and one of the most interesting cityscapes in the city:
Loads the same way in IE, only 1/2 the linked pic loads and transitalks server craps out.
I use an other than IE browser for SubTalk, only keep IE for Windowz updates and a couple of sites that are IE only.
No trouble with any other linked pics in SubTalk posts, just ones where the pic resides on transitalks server.
BTW, It's not your link, it's anybody who links to transitalks.
Out of system, I'm torn between Queensboro Plaza (parking garage) and Hunterspoint Ave. (LIRR station).
My favorite underground station is 168th St on the 1/9 and my favorite elevated station is Broadway Jct. I gotta give honorable mention to 'intertrain' stations like Woodside and Ditmars Blvd, where one can photograph different rail systems overlapping.
Your pal,
Fred
PS Good question, but a tough one.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Future (4) WoodlawnBowlingGreen,
B Bonnici
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
So Trenton to Philad/Market Street is $1.85 one way? That is very inexpensive, so long as your time is not worth more.
Chuck Greene
Mark
Neither does the R7.
Danny
Work with MTA Disruption
Bill "Newkirk"
I'd rather they try to guess it. I'll post clues during the day if the guessing doesn't go well. The photo is in the original post of this thread.
Taken from the Belt overpass somehow?
No, it's really Brooklyn Army Terminal, Bush Terminal is by 39th st yards. But you are right for calling it the BUSH Army Terminal in a way.
As for BUSH, as C-I-C, the army is out of there (the terminal) isn't it?
Distant Second in line would be a location somewhere along the line to LIC but I doubt that.
A second possible location may be identified soon.
But you are very wrong about me being with David. Dunno what gave you that idea. This is what was going on:
But your dead giveaway was a road that is half closed and a bridge under constrction, no matter where the signs are there or not. Being that, there is only one place on the NYC DOT website's weekly traffic advisories that has the right information.
Next time, disqualify me from guessing the next picture, because I might get that one too. :-)
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
http://www.transitgallery.com/data/072b030ba126b2f4b2374f342be9ed44/225_p8955.jpg
It may not be the most elegant or practical solution, but hey, we'll live ;-)
So try saving it as a GIF file.
http://www.transitgallery.com/data/072b030ba126b2f4b2374f342be9ed44/225_p8956.gif
My main suggestion would be to concentrate on the Circle Line and inside lines, and leave the rest. Get all these right, and then worry about the suburbs and how much space they are permitted to take up.
Think of it all as a trade off. The standard Underground Circle Line has four 45 degree bends and four 90 degree bends. By making the Circle Line circular, you have smoothed all of these off. These bends have to go somewhere, in other words they will have to be added to the other lines.
Mark
I was not supporting the abolition of the Circle service , though it would remove the Inspiration to create a Circular map :-) ,
rather the need to try to squeeze and distort the central district into a circular area.
www.metro.ru/map
The map is rather well done (though I don't know how well it follows the actual layout.)
Their "Circle Line" seems to be a connecting line which avoids the City center - it also is not required to 'fit' in with any other line. unlike London's which runs mainly over other lines.
I still feel that a true circle is not suitable for the London layout.
:-)
Mark
Mark
Mark
Sounds like the fire might have been in the ejector pumping station in Rock Creek Park. The ejector pumping station is on the south side of the creek about 150’ (45.72m) north of where the cut and cover twin box tunnel starts on the inbound track A1 side. The only other places that might be called "equipment stations" are the fans in the two fan shafts at Belmont Street and S Street. It can’t be the Belmont Street traction power substation because substation is on the surface.
John
Michael
Washington, DC
I hope we don't get a series of track fires like we did in the late 90s...
Francisco Franco's brother?
Not abandoned, just mothballed.
One driver of all this is the cost of capital replacement of equipment like signals, esepcially interlockings, renovation of stations, and remediation of environmental contamination, especially lead paint.
Look at Atlantic Avenue. The signals were being replaced. Did it really make sense to replace the signals and interlockings for routings that no longer exist, paint a rusting structure that wasn't needed, and rehab unneeded platforms? It would have cost much more. So they streamlined the line.
The Nassau line isn't being filled in. Post-realignment, it will be possible for the easternmost two tracks and platforms to be re-used for a new line someday, like the lower Second Avenue if the decision on the southern section is reconsidered a decade from now.
The abandoned extra Sea Beach track could also be replaced and reused if warrented.
The Queensbound "express" track was not abandoned until fairly recently, the late 90's. When they first stated the ludicracy of the weekend cutting of Nassau service to Broad, they first started terminating the J at Canal Street on the weekends (before extending it to Chambers), and it used the Queens "express" track at those times.
Scheduled weekend service to Canal lasted from 1990 to 1994, when it was extended to Chambers.
Incidentally, when was the last time there was track on the s/b exp track at Canal St?
Since, FSSR, I am unable to access the PDF for today's edition, I'll type the contents of the article, so you may read and discuss.
RUSH HOUR|REALITY (A)(2)(Z)
The $2,400 signs that don't tell you much
BY JOE RAPPAPORT
amNewYork Columnist
If you don't know who runs the subways, drop by the West 4th Street station some time and take a look at the tri-color signs flashing near the escalators: "MTA. MTA. MTA," they read.
First, there's "MTA" in green. Then "MTA" in red and, finally, an orange "MTA." Or all three colors at the same time. Or a thrilling snowfall effect.
In a 45-second sequence, the four signs repeat their profound message over and over again.
"It's hypnotic when you're down here," said Clarence Eckerson when I met up with him to look at the signs. "It's almost like you have to watch it to see if it will ever change, but it never will."
Eckerson, a cable company manager, had e-mailed me earlier about his pet subway peeve.
For the last four or five years, Eckerson has passed through the West 4th Street station from his home in Carroll Gardens, Brooklyn, and wondered about the signs that time, or at least the MTA, had forgotten.
Located at the base and top of the station's two escalators — which connect the B, D, F and V lines on the lower platform to the A, C and E lines on the upper platform — the signs have bugged him for years, Eckerson said.
"I mean, we know it's the MTA. Each one of those signs probably cost thousands of dollars and to install them probably cost thousands of dollars," he said. "And to have them just say, 'MTA'…"
"That is strange," said Marisa Baldeo, an MTA New York City Transit spokesperson when I asked her about the four signs, thich cost $2,400 each, it turns out.
NYC Transit installed the signs throughout the system to display escalator safety messages, Baldeo said.
She later said that she was told by the agency's elevator and escalator department it was "basically impossible" that the West 4th Street station's signs weren't working properly because they were inspected a month ago and worked then.
If a sign loses power, she said, it reverts to the default "MTA" message.
On the slight chance that my eyes weren't fooling me, I've asked the MTA to take a new look.
So, what do you think? I'll close with the caption for the above picture that appears in my "Gallery of Absurd Stuff" (on Page 2):
Location: West 4th Street station, Manhattan (May 2001)
Right, like we need a constant reminder of the subway's parent agency. We don't. Go back to displaying safety messages before I...
This isn't the only one that does this. There's also one at 5th Avenue/53rd Street.
Last time I checked, if you pay for 10 rides, you get 12, not 11.
"The fine for fare beating is more than the cost of a token."
"To avoid token lines, buy a time-saver ten-pak."
Except clocks tell the time.
You must also remember that those signs on the escalator are not the same as the ones on the platform. The ones on the ecalator are older, and were not apart of the information program the other ones were introduced as part of.
To me, they should come out with full color, and replace the signs on the edge of the platform. Then they would indicate both what is running there, and any service changes, and perhaps when the train is coming.
Believe it or not, there will be people who don't know that the MTA is the parent agency :-0. Also I find it funny that the spokesperson said that it was " basically impossible" that the sign @ W4 wasn't working properly. The exact statement:
She later said that she was told by the agency's elevator and escalator department it was "basically impossible" that the West 4th Street station's signs weren't working properly because they were inspected a month ago and worked then.
If a sign loses power, she said, it reverts to the default "MTA" message.
While I think that the writer's argument towards these signs are petty, if he wants to tackle a real issue, he should take a look at the stations that have escalators and elevators that frequently break down, have broken windows and smell like piss.
CHILDDREN SHOULD
HOLD ADULTS HAND
NOT THE HANDRAIL
And the spelling woes continue, even on these $2400 signs........
If you're an employee, you should read the Bulletins, Notices and GOs. Its astounding how many spelling and grammatical errors exist (in some, not all). You'd think the person writing them never passed the 6th grade.
My favorite is the term "as per" which exists in almost every official notice.
In General Orders, the person writing them loves quotes, for exmaple:
Southbound (A) service will operate to Euclid Avenue on Track 1 "ONLY" and "TERMINATE". Trains will then "RELAY" for northbound service.
Maybe "relay" acceptable to quote. However, there is no reason to do so for the words "only" and "terminate".
My college Eglish teacher was drilling it through our head that "as per" is not a legit term. I guess its one of those things that varies.
Better yet, those escalators are not even there for the long time being because of new ADA elevators being installed.
And you wonder why am-ny is a big joke.
But regardless, I think the escalators are temporarily OOS because of the close proximity to the elevators being placed.
Before July 2001, when the bridge changes went into effect. Anyway R36 clarified.
And does the Riverline have any dedicated work equipment?
We have very little problem with snow on the interstates, since they are high enough, and banked well enough that most of the snow blows clear.
Still plows are needed, and NORTH DAKOTA has a $500. fine and 15 points for running into the back of a snow plow. The moral of the story is you must not drive into the plow cloud, for you know not which lane he is actually in, nor can you actually see where or how far away he is.
Still they do get rear ended several times a year.
Elias
Da Hui
My P.A.S.S.* theory proven yet again.
* = People Are Such Schmucks
I can't find anything from you. Can you find it?
exactly one year ago.
Thanks in advance for any replies.
cp24.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What was Dr Funk's diagnosis upon seeing the station's condition?
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Why?
Koi
--Mark
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Nearly 90 new photos of the Third Avenue Railway have been posted on the Dave's Rail Pix website, at this URL:
http://www.davesrailpix.com/tars/tarsfp.htm
Frank Hicks
The picture near 57 St & Central Park. It's the Mayflower Hotel.
8 >) ~ Sparky
PS - With Dave's Photo's he will accept corrections to captions.
8 > ) ~ Sparky
Northbound Local Track
C to 168
B to 145
B to 145
D Running Light to BPB
Northbound Express Track
B Running Light
A to 207
A to 207
D to 205
Happened between 12:29 and 12:34
CG
What subway are you riding?
For the record, during some periods, the A has 15tph scheduled, and the D has 9.
Unfortunately, there are other places in the system where that doesn't work, even though it should.
Counting trains in only 1 direction? Where?
I've often timed southbound trains at 14th and never seen an average of more than 1 per track per 2 minutes. Sometimes headways are 105 seconds or so, but never twice in a row.
Why ask me? I was asking the same thing myself?
Each 6 train has about 45 seconds in the station, 15 seconds to come in, 20 seconds to leave...so that means 80 seconds for a 6 train from the time it comes in to the time it leaves...2 minutes is 120 seconds...If ONE #6 train takes 80 seconds from entering to exiting (that is, WITHOUT delays), how are the OTHER three #6 trains going to come in within the next 20 seconds? IMPOSSIBLE, I say! I can understand if, since there were so many 6 trains tightly spaced together, it can FEEL like two minutes, but it isn't two minutes in reality, even with train congestion...
Incognito
According to the public timetable, the travel time on the local between 125th and 42th is 4 minutes longer than on the express. That means it takes 4 minutes to enter the 9 local stations, pick up passengers, and leave. That's less than 27 seconds per station. The gap fillers at Union Square don't eat up that much extra time.
The gap fillers take up about 12 seconds. Even in light traffic, the doors are supposed to stay open for 10 seconds. And the signals prevent a train from coming to a full stop in the station until close to 60 seconds after the previous one has started to depart.
Robert
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
We have a 2 year old boy and are expecting a little girl in 6-8 weeks...
Robert
Congrats Robert.
&
MAZEL TOV
I had my second son last October at 50 yrs old. My oldest is 7. It is great.
It gets really great when they are around 4 yrs old.
CG
Chuck Greene
Robert
Chuck Greene
Robert
CG
wayne
Robert
So he didn't ride AMTRAK?
Congratualtions
Six or seven years to his first O-Gauge train?
#3 West End Jeff
Make sure you sneak him into the cab a couple of times when he's old enough. ;-)
--Mark
My best to both of you.
My advice: Raise your children the way you and your wife were raised by your parents.
You two turned out fine, raise yours by what you both learned from your parents and the children will grow up as good adults.
My wife and I have two grown daughters and both raise their kids as we raised them.
BTW, if you and the family ever travel south of the Mason-Dixon line, e-mail me, and I'll give you the grand tour of America's First Downtown Streetcar Museum, The Baltimore Streetcar Museum
Mark
p.s....You're gonna name him Mark, right?
Last year when you were conducting fare increase hearings, I wrote that I supported a larger increase than the one that was actually implemented in July of 2003. Now, one year later, it has become apparent that the increase was not high enough then, and you want to go higher now. As a transit enthusiast and advocate, I foresaw this year’s need for an increase and am reluctant to support it. I said a year ago, Metro is meant to be convenient. The $1.20 fare is even worse than the $1.10 fare, the $1.35 fare you propose is worse than $1.20. If the fare were now $1.25, as I had proposed, a raise to $1.50 may have not been totally unreasonable. I recommend raising fares as proposed in the docket. In addition, the new Odyssey fareboxes for the buses have yet to arrive meaning bus to rail fares are even higher for those riders receive no discount. The fare increase should be held off until the fareboxes arrive.
I am in favor, to an extent, of raising the fare, for I believe that public transportation is a vital asset to our community. But, I believe that the following must be done:
1. Demand higher subsidies from the local governments. There is no reason those choosing not to use transit and creating traffic should not have to share the price paid by those making an effort to clear area roads.
2. Delay the fare increase until the entire MetroBus fleet (if not all the regional bus systems as well) has the new fareboxes. At that time, implement the following fare structure for transfers between rail to bus and bus to rail for patrons using SmarTrip and eliminating paper transfers:
· Rail to bus: Regular station to station fares would be deducted at exiting station, upon boarding bus within two hours of originally entering Metro system, an additional 35 cents would be deducted
· Bus to rail: Regular bus fare would be charged when boarding the bus. Upon entering the MetroRail system within 2 hours of boarding the bus, 35 cents would be charged. Upon exiting the MetroRail, the balance between the bus fare and rail fare would be charged. For example, a person boards a T2 bus along River Road and is charged $1.20 (using current fares). Upon entering the MetroRail at Friendship Heights, he is charged 35 cents for the bus to rail transfer. When he arrives at DuPont Circle, if the trip started at rush hour, an additional 25 cents is charged, so that the total cost of the trip is the same $1.80 as if it were a rail to bus transfer (1.20 + 0.35 + 0.25). If the trip started outside rush hour, no additional fare would be charged, since rail fare from Friendship Heights to DuPont Circle costs 1.20.
The one thing I ask is that this year’s increase be large enough to actually cover expenses, unlike this past year’s. I really do not wish to be writing yet another letter concerning fare increases 12 months from now.
wayne
W Broadway Line
Da Hui
W Bwy Lcl
W Bwy Lcl
You know this for a fact? You got proff?
all they need is a wider door for the cab doors, that thin door bothers me, it frightens me more...make the doors wider
The doors are narrow because........the cabs are narrow!
AFAIK, yes, they do!
It makes sense because the carbon steel band when exposed to sea air becomes weaker quickly and could be more prone to collapsing on itself.
But you said they are replacing the bands right now. Either they are or they aren't. They did it on one 4-car set a long time ago, and AFAIK, have not done it again since.
Yes, that seems to be what is going on. These stories of installing stainless steel bands seem to be unfounded.
5228-9 do not have stainless steel bands. They just were not repainted. If you take a good look at these cars, you will notice that their bands are darker than the rest of the body, as well as darker than the R46's bands.
I must have missed those posts. Do you think you could find one of them? Thinking back to the discussions we had after I first posted those photos of 5228-9, I do not recall anyone stating that they were unpainted carbon steel.
2 cars.
I don't think that the carbon steel belt is capable of 'collapsing on itself'. It's a skin, not the structure of the car.
To my knowledge, theres two R44 sets with stainless steel bands, where the carbon steel once was. And more are to come.
The doors are narrow because........the cabs are narrow!
The R62 cabs are narrow, but the doors arent. In fact, the width of the cab has nothing to do with the doors.
So you would say that if larger doors were installed, they would be able to function in exactly the same manner as the current narrow doors? No functionality would be lost?
Im sayin they should function in the exact same manner as the current narrow doors.
I should correct myself. Since the R44's suck so much they propbably wont. In fact, the MTA probably tried it before, and it didnt work.
The R44's have narrow cabs with swing doors. Thus, the doors can only be as wide as the cab is (Because when the door is fully open, It will have to fit inside the cab).
Slide doors go into the wall, so it's a non-issue.
The R44's have narrow cabs with swing doors. Thus, the doors can only be as wide as the cab is (Because when the door is fully open, It will have to fit inside the cab).
Slide doors go into the wall, so it's a non-issue.
Exactly my point. I don't understand why SciGuy thinks wider doors will work just the same as the current doors. The wider doors will not be able to swing open fully.
Exactly how do you know this?
Mark
But the one or two sets that have it were done a few years ago. I highly doubt it will happen but then again, things happen.
Corona is another story.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Any noticeable reduction in congestion anywhere ?
Wrong approach. Time to up the prices on season tickets. Waiting lists mean unrealized profit!
So, Deaks, I have a question for you -- about your handle. Is it Peaks, or Deltics? Pick one!
AEM7
Minuses
1) Service reliability is down.
2) Edgware - Bank riders aren't liking the cut in frequency.
3) High Barnet riders don't like getting twice as many Bank trains as Charing X trains in rush hour (this happens because the trains on the Barnet branch alternate BCBCBC etc and every 4th train goes to Mill Hill East).
It isn't a particularly difficult change - Warren Street and Euston Square stations are only one block apart along Euston Road - but of course it is outside fare control (unimportant for people with unlimited Travelcards), is in the open air, which matters if it is raining, and involves crossing a couple of busy streets.
Is it really quicker via street level there than going an extra stop to Baker St and back?
Regent's Park station to Great Portland Street station is a very short walk on the surface.
Who - the Met.? I don't suppose they gave much thought to Tube railways in the 1860s !
I can understand, now, why the Northern Line travellers chose to ignore the official requests !
Fair point, but between 1900 and 1933 there might have been scope for improving the connections. That was an era when business on public transport was pretty good.
Yes so do I, and if that's still true, is Kings Cross St. Pancras really London's busiest underground station, or are some transfer passengers included in the entry and exit counts?
Transferring passengers get in your way just as much as others !
What I am wondering is whether the figure for King’s Cross St. Pancras, which could include some transfer passengers, is comparable with the others, which cannot include transfer passengers because they do not pass through any turnstiles.
-and what about passengers transferring to bus (with the same ticket !)
It's all ' Transport for London '
P S : I don't dispute that these are all 'busy stations' with lots of passengers getting in the way of others and that the statistics may be useful in deciding the number of escalators ,etc. or the salary of the Station Manager.
Yes but for practical purposes the easiest places to count entries and exits would be at underground station turnstiles.
I wonder how they count passengers at stations like Stratford, where there is cross-platform transfer with the main line.
*****************************************
Thank you for your e-mail with the attachment concerning the problems of
rail services in South London and ways in which the situation can be
improved.
Your point of view on the situation is understandable and this area
certainly needs to be addressed as soon as possible.
Unfortunately because National Rail is privatised it is also outside of
Transport for London's jurisdiction. Hence these issues are best answered by
either the train operator or the Strategic Rail Authority. Please refer to
the following links for further contact:
www.sra.gov.uk
www.southcentraltrains.co.uk
***********************************************
Thank you for your reply, please accept my apologies for the delay in
getting back to you.
The railways are a privatised network with a wide number of private train
companies running under franchise agreements to the SRA.
The SRA's key role in their own words is to develop and promote the railways
by steering forward investment projects aimed at opening up bottlenecks and
expanding network capacity. They are also responsible for letting and
managing passenger rail franchises.
In addition, the Office of the Rail Regulator's role is to ensure that
Network Rail's (who own and operate the rail infrastructure - track,
signalling, bridges, tunnels and stations) income, which is a combination of
private finance and public subsidy set by the Regulator, is used
efficiently.
Other than a few more adventurous types, I would suggest that your typical traveller from, say Ilford, knows the GE service well and is happy to use it, would be happy to use the entire Underground network, because the map makes it look simple and quick, and very few Underground stations are burnt out, or open air public toilets, or both (I exagerate, but the state of many BR stations in London is lamentable) but would feel very awkward about experimenting with another operator from a different part of town. My suspicion is that such a person would rather get to, say, Wimbledon by District Line than by getting to Waterloo and using SWT.
It sounds as if the different rail operators have carved out different "personalities" and reputations despite the fact that it han't been so long since the BR breakup.
To some extent they have, but the National Rail (ex-British Rail) commuter network around London was always much more difficult to use, for those unfamiliar with it, than the Underground is. The sheer complexity of the network makes it so. People tend to know their own line, plus the tube; they don't know the commuter lines in other parts of London.
I've often wondered what proportion of passengers get off commuter trains at places like Ealing Broadway, Barking, Vauxhall, Wimbledon or Richmond, and join the Underground there, rather than ride on to the central London terminus and then get on the tube. My guess (but it is only a guess, because I've never lived out in one of the directions where it is possible) is that not too many do transfer to the tube at those places. Stratford is probably the exception.
My guess would be the same. In most cases, once you are on a main line train it's faster to stay on board to the terminus.
Vauxhall is another instance where quite a lot of people get off before the terminus - it saves a transfer in getting to King's Cross / St Pancras. Wimbledon is only any use if you're going somewhere on the Edgware Rd District.
Doubtlessly. The busiest Main Line station is Waterloo. The reason why Victoria does better is because of (1) Buckingham Palace, (2) Westminster Cathedral, (3) Victoria Coach Station, and (4) a generally more developed area. King's Cross - St Pancras does better through being two Main Line stations to one Underground station.
This still leaves the question hanging whether the passenger counts double-count some passengers because they come out through the deep tube fare control and re-enter through the subsurface one, or vice versa. My guess is that they must be double-counted. However, there is also an undercounting, because at Kings Cross Thameslink you can go directly from the Thameslink (commuter rail) platforms to the deep tube platforms without passing through any fare control at all. You can consequently use the fare control at Kings Cross Thameslink station as an entrance to the Underground if you want to, though I don't suppose many people do.
Adjusting Kings Cross down by 20% would put Victoria in first place, closely followed by Waterloo and Oxford Circus.
However, there is also an undercounting
Yes, wherever you can transfer without fare control. I would guess that Stratford has the most undercounting.
the new pedestrian underpass being built under Euston Road .. intended to provide .. within-fare-control interchange.
With a new underpass to cross the street, the whole station could be put into one fare-controlled area.
you can go directly from the Thameslink (commuter rail) platforms to the deep tube platforms without passing through any fare control at all.
You don't say! I thought that the Thameslink station was hopelessly isolated along Pentonville Road.
Highbury & Islington, Old St. and Moorgate must have its own share of that albeit on weekdays only. And of course there are the Widened Lines stations too.
One thing about Stratford is that even in 1978, when I bought a single ticket from Stratford to Liverpool St. and specifically mentioned that I was going to ride on a BR train, I was still given an LT ticket. And the guard at Liverpool St.(BR) accepted it as granted. I never understood what the deal was.
Hopefully we'll know for sure soon. I've just e-mailed TfL to ask.
wayne
1 King’s Cross St. Pancras 78,101,889
2 Victoria 69,313,567
3 Waterloo 68,058,765
4 Oxford Circus 64,247,340
5 Liverpool Street 54,105,106
6 London Bridge 40,256,520
7 Bank 39,150,929
8 Leicester Square 36,074,842
9 Piccadilly Circus 34,679,534
10 Tottenham Court Road 34,055,312
11 Paddington 32,385,681
12 Bond Street 30,561,916
13 South Kensington 25,206,305
14 Holborn 24,791,796
15 Hammersmith (District) 24,396,500
16 Green Park 24,372,467
17 Euston 22,966,971
18 Finsbury Park 21,758,199
19 Canary Wharf 21,690,318
20 Earl’s Court 21,176,932
It was the LPTB, after the merger,that moved the Met platforms at Kings X to near the Tube entrance. The Widened Lines platforms could not be moved as the connection to Kings X Main Line had to be maintained. These platforms later became Kings X Midland.
Notting Hill Gate's rebuilding came later- Edgeware Rd. and Hammersmith remain !
Actually Kings Cross Thameslink for the last ten years or more, and will likely remain in use for at least another four or five years.
It was the LPTB, after the merger,that moved the Met platforms at Kings X to near the Tube entrance. The Widened Lines platforms could not be moved as the connection to Kings X Main Line had to be maintained. These platforms later became Kings X Midland.
Notting Hill Gate's rebuilding came later- Edgeware Rd. and Hammersmith remain !
Of course I've been wanting the same thing to be done at Avenue A and 14th St. and that's never happened either.
Better still an overbridge immediately below ground level connecting into the Euston Underground Concourse.
Then there would be the other one: Baker St (H&C/Circle) could do with a West entrance for Marylebone station.
PS. It wasn't the Acela...
http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/Outlet/7082/corridor.html
Post links
Post Pics
write in Italics
write in bold
change font
add coloured backgrounds (purple, etc.)
change colour in writing
Its off topic, but if I know how do to this, I no longer have to give you urls, be a victim to HTML "unlearnedness" (i've screwed up many a post)and make them more "exciting" at a lack of a better word.
Thanks again!
B Bonnici
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
NOTE:In order for you to view this, where ever you see a *, DISREGARD, it is not a space. Just type it without the asterisks (*'s).
( sorry its so large :-) )
How do you...
>>Post links
<*a href*=url goes here>Click HERE<*/*a*>
>>Post Pics
To post an image on this site, first, make sure that you have an image link, then type <*img src*=*image url>
>Alternatively, you can link images to URLs, by placing the IMG SRC code where the 'Click HERE' goes.
Example=
>>write in Italics
To write in italics, type <*i*>italics text here<*/*i*>
>>write in bold
To write in bold, type this <*b*>bold text here<*/*b*>
>>change colour in writing
To write in colors, type <*font color*=*red>red text here<*/*font>
These two, you really don't need for SubTalk, but I do not know anyway.
> change font
> add coloured backgrounds (purple, etc.)
And thats all you pretty much need to know for this board. Also, if you'd like, I found a pretty good site I found on Google that you should check out, just click here. Good luck with your HTML skills and enjoy SubTalk!
-Chris
For different background colors, you use the <body> command, e.g. <body bgcolor=grey> will turn the background grey.
http://www.htmlcodetutorial.com/
As SINY mentioned, the bold, italic, links and image tags is all you really need.
If you want to change the font for example:
<*font face=Arial*>Text<*/font*>
See, I have it in Arial.
Don't include the asterisks in the tags ;-). Hope this helps.
The other replies cover the bases well, but this has got to stop. Whatever happened to the SubTalk FAQ idea?
I can think of far more important things that "have got to stop."
Yeah... Like the (A) train once it gets past 76th Streeeeee\|/|/\
Someone could write a Java that could shut off some browser capibilites or hijack you to some unpleasant site or other, or could include a virus.
Elias
the HTML "tags" give instructions to the user's browser on how to display a given text.
I used the B tag to make the bold letters above.
A tag consists of a code enclosed by angled brackets "<" and ">"
I should write the B code out for you to show it to you as a tag, but your browser would not show it to you, but instead would carry out the command. So we fudge it sometimes to shwo what the tag would look like.
Most tags have an "open" tag and a "close" tag. (B) and (/B)
B = Bold
I = Italic
easy so far, right.
so what you really do, is you take a paragraph of text, and then add the tags to it to esplain to the user's browser how something is to be displayed.
To put an "inline" *something* (usually a picture) you would use an IMG SRC command. (This one is a single tag and does not need an /end tag). When you cite a URL, the URL must be 1) complete (start with http://; 2) it must be in quotes: "http://12.23.190.250/Photos/404.jpg"; and 3) remember that file names and extentions are CASE SENSITIVE.
Putting this all together: the tag brackets < >; the command IMG SRC=; and the URL will ask your browser to go to my server and to show you the picture that I have specified. On this forum, you would write that code right here in this window together with the rest of your text.
Thus: img src="http://12.23.190.250/Photos/404.jpg" becomes the photo below when enclosed in the "<" ">" brackets.
All of this begs the issue that you ALREADY HAVE ACCESS TO A SERVER that actually holds your file. nycsubway.org will not do this for you.
To reference a new page somewhere else you use the A tags, and these are more complicated. (A means Anchor) there are many Anchor commanads the one you need is HREF (Here is a REFerence) so the command part of the tag is A HREF (= url) followed by an > to close the first part of the tag. Then you write the text that will be the actual click on text which will usually be underlined in blue, and this is followed by the /A tag to close the command, and return you to your normal text.
So putting *that* all together it would look like this:
(A HREF="http://subways2020.tripod.com/")My Website(/A) is here!
becomes the line shown below whent the "("s are replaced with the "<"s.
My Website is here!
You *could* use the view source command on your browser to see how I did this, but this is already a very complicated pages with many links on it already. Finding what I have added as part of this post is not easy, but you will see EXACTLY what your browser sees before it interprets the HTML tags to make the page that you were looking at.
HTML is fun, and there *are* websites that explain it, but you would be better off getting a book, perhaps HTML for Dummies (Click on AMAZON below and let Dave the a percent of your purchace price). You can write HTML with notepad right on your computer.
I do not know if the current Internet Explorer packages include FrontPage Express anymore, but if you download Netscape, you will get their Netscape Composer program that will let you make whatever pages you want, and then you could cut and paste the CODE to this page.
Elias
My first first was successfully using the quirks in Amtrak's fare plan so that I was able to pick up an Unreserved ticket from Pittsburgh to Philly (or intermediate points) that is good for six months for only $5 on top of the price of my ticket to NYC.
My second first and first last was a ride on a Clocker. I wanted to see for myself how the ridership levels worked out and a flagman on the run had some very interesting information. I'll get into that in another post.
My third first was the ACMU ride to White Plains on the deadhead express. Those old clunkers were great. Despite the fact that they smelled bad and were totally run down and that the open vestabules let a great deal of snow and crap into the interriors I had a wonderful time. Some positive aspects includes a large unobstructed interrior, somersault flip seating, the charm of single units, intra-train vestabule doors left open by the crew for interactive railfanning, largish windows, Penn Central numbering on the interrior sliding doors, door widths that seemd to somehow anticipate ADA requirements and a nifty feature where the open interrior doors locked down the controls.
At White Plains we caught a return train w/in 3 minutes and were back to GCT by 9:07. From here pigs and I caught a D train for my first ride down the West End. I got to see all the places where the French Connected and John Travolta strutted. I also saw that wacky spaghetti where the old culver connected. As a bonus our train was ordered to run express down to 50th and Bayside.
My 5th first was a chili dog at Nathans and my 6th first was using the double Metrocard transfer from the D to the B68 to the B/Q. I caught a straight-40 on the B and when photographed all the opposing traffic on the Brighton to Broadway-Laffyette. Here I exited the system with pigs cause he needed to catch a 6 to Hunter for a class and I wanted to use his unlimited Metrocard. However my plan went aray when I first got lost downtown getting back to B-L from Bleaker and then swipped my PPR card instead of Pigs' unlimited. I wanted through 2 D's and a Not in Service for a slant B to show up which I caught to 145th St.
I was overjoyed when I discovered that that whole 145th St complex was a PNEUMATIC INTERLOCKING PLANT!! My B train relayed quickly and I rode from 145th to 135th between cars on that big "Slant 40 Porch". I played the V off the B at 50th St in order to check out the part time tower there. There was come cool sinage Re: lineups and a neat interlocking machine in the tower. I finally got back to pigs only 15 minutes late at 1:22. We rode the 6 to GCT and caught the shittle to TSQ where I photographed the CP valve unit they got on the platform that controls the Pneumatic gap fillers.
We then wen to Penn where we grabbed a bite to eat before catching the 3:01 SUPER EXPRESS, first stop Princeton Jct...which happened to be our stop because we were....
Going for my 8th first (7 being a Railfan Window on the CPW line), riding the Dkiny. Some nobel prize guy was giving a talk on the Columbia accident at 4:30 and we wanted to attend as much as we could. Unfortunately the damn dinky didn't wait for our train and caused us to be late. NJT really needs to do something about this!! The Dinky's SOLE PURPOSE is to meet and green ingound and outbound corridor trains. Leaving about 3 minutes before the train arrives wastes a run and makes a lot of hard working Princetonians late!!!
Anyway, we caught the 6:02 Dinky back and Pigs hopped an NJT train sitting in the station. I waited past two Clockers for the 6:42 arriving Trenton train. Thanks to the Snidge's half hour headways I had to burn 15 minutes, but I was soon light railing it back to Camden at the slow crawl of 30-40mph. I found that most of the LRV's are very hard to sleep in due to their close spacing. You need to sort of angle sideways else so long circulation. Ideally you'd use the facing seats, but these were in hot demand. One positive aspect was that the seat-window gap is small enough to support one's head. The Snidge had a pretty good crowd out of Trenton...the car wasn't packed, but I wasn't alone. There were was a very healthy number of intermediate riders, most who looked like they were using the Snidge to go shopping or to pick up pizza. Still, only about 5-6 people were with me when I arrived at the WRTS in Camden. I was lucky to get a PATCO after only about 2 minutes of waiting and managed to get home by 8:22. My feet were killing me due to my wearing two pairs of socks which created some trench foot style conditions, but all in all a very fun and productive trip.
Well, what happened?
Bud & Lou - madness on the installment plan
First, it's usually street first, then avenue, so it's unambiguous that way. Even if it wasn't, there are very only two intersections that it's a problem, these are 1st and 2nd, and 3rd and 6th.
This post has been nagging at me for a while. Actually, Third Ave and 6th Street don't intersect. Don't believe me? Check it out for yourself.
That narrows it down to one of about 200 blocks.
Only thing you can be sure of is that the 'za is lousy.
I was a bit worried that I wouldn't get to 59 in time to catch the B train at 7:40 (the 7:05 BPB), so when a 2 pulled in at 72, I took it to Times Square and walked over to 6th.
I arrived at 42/6 at 7:42 to be greeted by a B train pulling out -- the B train that's scheduled to be at 47-50 at 7:44. As the C/R's head passed by, I tried to plead with him to hold the train for a connection with the arriving F at 34, but either he didn't hear me or he didn't care to heed my request -- most likely both.
Fifteen minutes passed before the next B arrived. (It's scheduled to be nine minutes behind its leader.) I boarded and took a seat in the third car.
We stopped before W4. After a minute or so, the C/R announced that we would be arriving at W4 on the uptown express track, where the train would be going out of service. I walked back to his position and asked him for more information (in particular, I wanted to know if I should wait for the next B, wend my way to the Q, or take the F instead), but he had already announced all he had been told.
The trainload crossed back to the southbound platform. There were no announcements, although an electronic sign helpfully proclaimed, "MTA." A D pulled in, and I asked the C/R if she knew what was going on on the B, but she didn't even know what I was asking about. I took the D one stop so I'd have the option of diverting to Canal for the Q.
As I was about to divert, a B pulled in! I got on and claimed one of the few remaining seats in the third car. No problems crossing the bridge. We got to DeKalb, where a platform announcement informed us that our train would make all local stops to Brighton Beach. Time to bombard another C/R with questions. He couldn't understand why we were being sent local, since there was a Q right behind us, but he didn't know where the next express was, so I stayed on the train, which quickly filled up, since apparently ours was the first train after a service disruption on the Brighton line.
At Newkirk another B met us on the express track. Most of us transferred. The result was crush loading like I've never seen on the B Division.
Seeing as it's been a half hour since the last southbound express, we shouldn't have a problem entering the terminal, right? No, we have to wait close to five minutes to let a northbound local go -- and watch the southbound local enter the terminal a minute before us.
And if that wasn't enough, the C/R tried to close the doors while half of the passengers were still in the process of getting off the train. I have no clue why. Was he taking the starting lights a bit too literally? I didn't even hear the brakes charge up.
Down on the street, I joined the mob of two trainloads attempting to cram onto a single B1 bus with suburban seats. The B/O kept the rear door locked and insisted that each passenger dip a MetroCard, even though everybody had free transfers from the subway and nobody moves to the rear on the suburbans. Actually, I didn't dip my MetroCard, since I didn't get that far -- I had an enjoyable ride the rest of the way to work on the second step of the front stairwell.
I had been planning to arrive at my office by 8:40, a half hour before class. I didn't get there until 9:17, and I only had to ride seven trains and a bus to get there.
All because the 7:05 B was running a few minutes hot. And where was the DAP when it might have come in handy? Why can't Control give the C/R's enough information to give useful advice to their passengers? All three C/R's I spoke to were polite and as helpful as they could be, but they were as much in the dark as the rest of us.
Well, it is quite clear that all C/R positions need a computer display of what is happening around them. There is no good reason for not having accurate and up-to-date information on board all trains.
Elias
Here was your foolish mistake. You should have took the #2 all the way to Atlantic, or took the (Q) at Times Sq. Now, you're a looser for all eternity.
At Newkirk another B met us on the express track. Most of us transferred. The result was crush loading like I've never seen on the B Division.
You've never rode an AM Rush hour Fulton express from Brooklyn. Or a Queens Blvd rush hour train.
IIRC, the (B) is faster.
And I don't want to stand all the way to Wall. I want to get work done on the train and preserve my feet for the four consecutive hours of standing that my job requires.
Only if you can catch it.
The (2) to Atlantic might have been better, but I would never have thought of it, being a BMT person after all.
Even whe I lived up at 102nd street, I'd change to the BMT as soon as possible.
Elias
1. You save the walk from 7th Ave to 6th Ave by taking the 2 to Atlantic. That takes a lot longer than going down the stairs at Atlantic.
2. At Atlantic you can take either a B or Q, whichever comes first. No need to wait 9 min or more for a B.
2. During the time I travel, each B train almost always passes one Q train along the Brighton line. If a Q arrives at Atlantic first, I will most likely reach my destination sooner by letting it pass and waiting for the B behind it. If I'm going to ignore the existence of the Q, it doesn't matter if I wait at a station served by the Q.
I am curious - what percentage of the time does your B train come on schedule and get you there within a minute or two of schedule? Is it around 90% or higher, or is it less?
I haven't been keeping close track of actual vs. scheduled arrival times at Brighton Beach. Perhaps I should start, although I sometimes get off at Sheepshead Bay instead. All I can say is that, when I do go to Brighton Beach, the train has always stopped before entering the terminal, sometimes for a few seconds and sometimes for much longer. I also don't keep track of northbound trips in the afternoon/evening, since I'm not on a strict schedule of my own then, and I sometimes take the Q instead, depending on my destination.
I've only experienced one B running more than a minute early, on Thursday. Once or twice the B has left Columbus Circle about a minute early.
Obviously, the Q would have been a better option in retrospect, but how was I supposed to know that the B train that was scheduled to be at 47-50 at 7:44 would actually be leaving 42 at 7:42? I know the schedules of the trains I usually ride and there was no question I'd make it to 42/6 in time.
I have ridden the crowded B Division routes you mention, along with many others. This B train was worse. There is heavy southbound Brighton ridership in the morning (almost entirely within Brooklyn), and there apparently hadn't been a train in close to a half hour.
Yeah, I was mostly just messing around. It's obvious that you made the right choice to take the B, since you got to a station at least 3 minutes before the train should have been arriving.
I have ridden the crowded B Division routes you mention, along with many others. This B train was worse. There is heavy southbound Brighton ridership in the morning (almost entirely within Brooklyn), and there apparently hadn't been a train in close to a half hour.
It's not possible that it was worse than some of the 'A' trains I used to ride. Could have been just as bad, but not worse.
I used to get to the train station and hope that I'd be able to get on the first train that came. Many mornings would deny me that priviledge.
But how difficult would it be for Control to briefly mention where the problem is and, if possible, a rough estimate of how long it will last? When that first B train turned at W4, I wasn't the only passenger who wanted to know if the problem was before DeKalb (so the Q would be a better option) or after (so the Q wouldn't be running either), or neither, and the C/R was quite ready to give out whatever information he had, but he had none. The lack of communication in the subways is truly incredible. It almost seems deliberate.
More important than customer service, more important than ANYTHING is "need to know" ... and nobody needs to know unless someone higher up DECIDES that so and so NEEDS to know. CYA - Cover Yer Asp ... "loose lips sink ships" ... one of many frustrations (plus constantly being chewed for "improper disclosure") when I had my fill of working for political scum that finally got me out of civil service (at MY option).
But rest assured that keeping EVERYONE in the dark *is* deliberate. "Who NEEDS to know?" Hell, they even did away with that pesky "Freedom of Information Act." :(
As I'll probably be saying often - November's coming - store up your APPRECIATION and USE it ... "you're IN, you're OUT" ... click.
Before I quit the state ('cuz I had ENOUGH) I worked for the NYS Department of Public Service (The "Public Service Commission" is just the commissioners, us drones were "DPS") ... my final position was in the "Cable TV enforcement" division. Here's just ONE example. Got sent down to Westchester to the home of a complainant who insisted that when the cable company replaced wires on the street that this strange "growling noise" started in her house. Others had been there from various other agencies and told her that she was insane and that nothing was wrong.
Myself and a partner were dispatched to go "measure" ... among ourselves we joked on the way down that we were to perform a "cable exorcism" ... got there, took out our instrumentation while the complainant traced our every step. There was no way we could do what we came to measure without being overheard. My partner heard nothing however *I* did ... and it was most pronounced in a closet and next to the chimney in the residence. It was NOT of an electrical nature - it sounded more like a tunnel boring machine deep underground. Needless to say the complainant was exuberant that my equipment did indeed detect a 22 Hz tone and I could hear it as well, especially when I put my ear on the wall. As required, I said nothing other than "we've gathered some data and someone will be back in touch with you as soon as we dig a bit deeper."
Unbeknownst to me, she got RIGHT on the phone with my wigs, her politicians and a LAWYER and filed suit against the cable operator insisting that I'd told her that she was absolutely right. Nobody asked ME what happened - filed the report, handed in strip charts and my estimation that it was actually vibration of rock strata under her house as a result of SOME sort of "heavy mechanical machinery" in the area but I was unable to determine its source. I further wrote that it was DEFINITELY not the cable company as any "vibrations" from cable plant would be at the 120 Hz or 60 Hz supply and "subharmonics" were definitely not possible, particularly at an amplitude sufficient to make the walls hum. Case closed, cable company not at fault.
*I* was disciplined because the complainant swore up and down that I fingered the cable company and was now "covering it up." My wigs let me take the fall because some Assemblyhole (Brodsky, he's STILL in office) went ballistic on the agency for NOT solving the problem. In the end, the fault was an air conditioning unit at an A&P about a half mile away. When the A/C unit went up in flames a couple of weeks later, the problem ended. :-\
I still faced charges of violating the agency's confidence and insubordination for "telling HER one story and then filing a false report with MY agency!" So there's just ONE example of what happens when you DO your job. Brodsky (the $kumbag) is STILL in office, and was responsible for killing off the former Cable Commission because it was headed by the FORMER Assemblyman from Brodksy's district, one Bill Finneran - I *loved* Finneran because he was an alright guy and always treated us fairly. Both were democrats! But Brodksy's a NASTY sumbiatch and because this woman was constantly calling his office, he came after *ME* ... there were many other similar episodes of damned if you do, damned if you didn't, and damned if you weren't even THERE. Such is the politicos and the wimps up and down the chain of command stand aside when lightning strikes from above ...
Transit: I was a conductor back in 1970 ... back then the motorman MIGHT get a radio, odds against it actually working. When I worked the occasional 32 on the D, I had a PA system. I won't go into getting in major league trouble for making humorous and clever announcements (somebody would ALWAYS manage to call in and COMPLAIN) but back then, IF the motorman even HAD a working radio and command center deigned to call a train and advise of a problem ahead, the motorman would have to get on the PA and make an announcement because I was as clueless as to what was going on as the geese. If the "customers" were LUCKY, maybe supervision would get on the platform PA and make an annoucement. Back then of course, the platform speakers were about as clear as a Jack in the Box drive-thru. I sure couldn't make out what the squawks and honks were about, yet folks would step up to me and demand an explanation. Best I could offer was a shrug of the shoulders. :(
Whenever we *DID* get told what was going on, I'd dutifully get on the horn and "pass it along" ... and wouldn't ya know it? Folks'd call in and complain about ME (badge number and all) and I'd get chewed. It seems that when ANYBODY actually makes a statement that is overheard by the public, it's taken as an "official statement on behalf of our leaders" and woe be to those who "get it wrong" or are not "authorized to make such an announcement" ... and the TA was MIGHTY laid back then compared to now.
So what's the correct answer? The words of Sargeant Schultz on "Hogan's Heroes" ... you CAN'T get in trouble for saying NOTHING. You *CAN* get in MIGHTY big trouble for saying ANYTHING. Civil Service is, and has always been the penultimate game of "Simon Says" ...
To anyone who's doing it TODAY ... do I lie? :(
Got nailed for each and every one.
Oh and how about tooting that wooden train whistle into 6688's mike?:)
But what would happen to them (particularly if you managed to get a feedback thing going with the cab door) is if you overloaded the "front end" the crappy tubes they used in them would go to near full conduction, humongous cathod currents and BLAM went the lousy grid leak/cathode resistor in a puff of carbon composition aroma. Toast. So I wasn't kidding about blowing up the amp (if it's original and unmodified - I doubt 6688 has its original, let us pray) under just the right circumstances.
A "shy" conductor who knew their trains could just fill out a car defect sheet as the reason for no announcements. :)
After 15 minutes of no trains in either direction and the downtown 1 still sitting there past the end of the platform, announcements were made that all downtown 1 trains were terminating at Chambers Street. No mention was made of what to do to get to/from south of Chambers.
So went up to the booth, where the agent had no idea anything was wrong. He called his supervisor, and she said all service was running normally. I asked if he heard the announcements that were repeating, and he said he couldn't hear them inside the booth. I told him that there were no 1 trains south of Chambers, and that we hadn't seen a train in either direction for over 15 minutes. He said that until his supervisor told him there was a problem, he had no information to give us. I gave up, walked over to the N/R, and paid another fare. A great way to start my vacation.
However I do believe the S/As need a better form of finding out delays.
Several weeks ago I was at XXX St and there was a fire at YYrd st on the northbound local, so everything was being rerouted up the express. Of course in their consideration for employees (read: cheapness), the PM tour gets no assistance. So while rerouting trains I have S/As from several stations calling me asking what's going on. This is a lever type machine, so handling the reroutes during rush hour, my regular southbound service, AND having to deal with these calls. And some of the S/As felt I should have called THEM.
Yet they call their supervisors and "everything's running".
They need a representative at Control, kind of like DAP has set up, where that person has no excuse for not knowing what's going on. Until the TA comes up with something better, I wouldn't count on any timely information from the booths.
Just like C/Rs, TW/Os and T/Os you really can't blame them: they know only as much as they're told. Those of us out in the field are isolated and must rely on those in CC, &c. for information. Until we get it, as far as we know, nothing's wrong.
I can add one to the list from this past Thursday afternoon around 3:45 (that's right, the morning nightmare wasn't all I had to deal with). I was taking the short trip from 14/3 to 23/6 via the L and F/V -- I would have gladly walked it if my knee hadn't been sending signals that it had had enough stress for one day already. First I just missed an L, and the next one didn't come for ten minutes. Then I found the F/V platform remarkably crowded, and after ten minutes of waiting, I asked the S/A at the north mezzanine what was going on. He said nothing was wrong. I told him there hadn't been any trains in a long time. "How long?" "At least ten minutes." "That's not long." Funny, the F schedule shows headways of 4-6 minutes at that time of day, and the V is on 9-minute headways, so 2-3 trains should arrive during a ten-minute period. If there have been no F trains in 6 minutes or no V trains in 9 minutes, the passengers should get an announcement and the S/A's should get a phone call.
Just curious: why didn't you walk to PATH instead? It seems like that would have been faster and cheaper than going up to Penn, even initially.
I had to meet someone coming from a different direction at Penn Station to go to the airport together. The PATH is also just that much further of a walk from where I live, and I wanted to minimize the walking distance with my luggage (it was of non-carry-on size).
In retrospect it probably would have been no slower and much less walking to take the M20, even in rush hour traffic. But that would've required knowing about the service disruption in advance.
My stories: Last weekend simultaneous 7-line and QB-line GO's had shuttle buses for three different trains parked at 36 St. A single employee was handling big crowds at 2 a.m. I ended up in Corona before I came back and crossed Northern a dozen times -- no one knew where the 7 buses were parked. No signs on the buses or streets. (I normally just use 53 St trains to Court Sq, but I wanted to see what would happen).
Today, on the "J" shuttle, I saw an entire car full of people take ten minutes to get off and cross to the opposite platform at Essex, because the speakers (car and platform) were incomprehensible, even if one DID speak English). No signs up. No one on the tracks to help.
It's public transportation: leave early, show up to work early, have a relaxing cup of coffee, read the paper, keep the stress down...
And that would have been perfectly okay! It would have gotten to BB at 8:40 and I would have been in my office 15 minutes later.
It's public transportation: leave early, show up to work early, have a relaxing cup of coffee, read the paper, keep the stress down...
What do you think I do? I have a 9:10 class but I left early enough to be in my office (which is a convenient 15-second walk from the classroom) by 8:40. (How much coffee do you want me to drink?) When, a few weeks ago, that same interval of the B went BIE at W4, I still made it to work before 9. I leave myself more than enough time to get to work even if something goes wrong with a train. I just don't leave myself enough time to get to work if one train is running earlier, its follower is mysteriously taken out of service, its follower is sent down the local track with a very heavy load, its follower, with an even heavier load, has to wait five minutes for access to a terminal that hasn't had any incoming trains for a half hour, and a half hour's worth of passengers all try to cram onto a single B1 bus with the wrong seating arrangement and with a driver who insists on having each passenger dip.
At the very least, the C/R's on the affected lines could have been told what was happening and the B/O's on the connecting bus routes could have been warned about anticipated heavy loads from transferring from the subway and instructed to allow rear-door boarding.
How early do you think I should leave next time? I'd put a bed in my office and avoid the issue but it's the size of a closet and my officemate might not agree.
My workplace -- a community college -- is in a residential neighborhood, just not the one I live in or the one I have any interest in living in at this point in my life.
You should leave early enough so that you won't get all worked up about being late -and clearly you're a little worked up. Maybe the 0656 B is the one for you. -or maybe an automobile. If you don't like transit, then don't take it. It's very far from perfect, but its the great equalizer of NYC and everyone has to deal with it.
If the C/R or T/O was told what was going on, they'd say. Sometimes control has no idea either, since they're just looking blindly at a radio console. It remains to be seen whether the new RCC will make things better or worse for straphangers. Even with a state of the art informational display, a dispatcher who's unfamiliar with a territory or equipment can screw things up royally - as witnessed on MNRR a few months ago.
Also remember, schedules are just a starting point for any given day at transit. ATD's can and do change them as they see fit every day. Do not rely on any train to come at a particular time every day. Maybe your train was always running late before, or maybe RTO tweaked the schedule to smooth things out at DeKalb. It's possible your normal train was running two minutes early the one day because there was a huge gap in service before it.
I've had my morning train come consistantly at 0658 for weeks, and then suddenly the same job starts coming in at 0653 every day.
My own sad experience is that every time I try some convoluted yet seemingly brilliant scheme of mine to get around some service disruption, I regret it. It always takes way way WAY longer than if I'd just stayed with my original game plan.
And all too many people come in here just touse it as a bitching post for a trip that didn't go as perfectly as they expected.
If you have a complaint about service, take it to the Customer Service department of the agency involved. That is the ONLY way they will know there is a deficiency in their service; venting here only makes the posters look like crybaby whiners.
If anyone wants to complain, then do so via the correct channels - i.e. the MTA. But at the end of the day, nothing's perfect - shit happens every now and then - get over it.
There is a distinct, recent change in the amount of information given to riders. Fewer signs on the platform, less consistent announcements, overlapping G/O's, poorer planning. This is a top-down problem, the morale is worse, and we are not just whining. There is an endemic recent problem (that could be coming partly from operating money shortages) that is hitting customer service the worst. We should be talking about it.
And to discuss deficiencies in transit as it is currently implemented, along with ideas for improving it.
And all too many people come in here just touse it as a bitching post for a trip that didn't go as perfectly as they expected.
Is that how you'd describe my posts? Search the archives for my handle.
If you have a complaint about service, take it to the Customer Service department of the agency involved.
I've done that. The fine folks who read the MTA's email know me well by now.
exactly. but you'll be more in charge of your own destiny...sort of.
Impossible. It's a character flaw of mine. Once I've made up specific travel plans, I get worked up if they're foiled by someone else's mistake.
But that only accounts for the initial delay, in any case. Once trains start to get turned back, how about some information?
Maybe the 0656 B is the one for you. -or maybe an automobile. If you don't like transit, then don't take it. It's very far from perfect, but its the great equalizer of NYC and everyone has to deal with it.
I'm a great proponent of transit. Why do you think I post here?
I do often ride the 0655 (there is no 0656), and its leader, and its leader. For a change, I didn't have any copies to make or quizzes to grade before my first class, so I gave myself an extra half hour to sleep and decided to take a later train than usual -- one that would get me there "only" 30 minutes early. I've never risked a train later than the 0705, at least not by plan.
If the C/R or T/O was told what was going on, they'd say.
Of course. I asked the C/R and he knew nothing. I don't blame him in the slightest.
Sometimes control has no idea either, since they're just looking blindly at a radio console.
Somebody, somewhere, decided to turn a train at W4. Somebody, somewhere, presumably had a reason to turn a train at W4. Why couldn't that somebody have arranged for the reason to reach the train's crew along with the directive?
It remains to be seen whether the new RCC will make things better or worse for straphangers. Even with a state of the art informational display, a dispatcher who's unfamiliar with a territory or equipment can screw things up royally - as witnessed on MNRR a few months ago.
The basic problem isn't one of technology -- it's one of communication, plain and simple. The C/R's radio was working -- he just wasn't told what was happening.
(What happened on MNRR? I'm not sure what you're referring to.)
Also remember, schedules are just a starting point for any given day at transit. ATD's can and do change them as they see fit every day. Do not rely on any train to come at a particular time every day. Maybe your train was always running late before, or maybe RTO tweaked the schedule to smooth things out at DeKalb. It's possible your normal train was running two minutes early the one day because there was a huge gap in service before it.
Just to clarify: this train is listed in the printed customer timetable as being at Columbus Circle at 7:40. I'm basing these times on the information published by NYCT, not on informal observations (although in my very limited experience at Columbus Circle, B trains around that time of day are generally within one minute of schedule in either direction).
Yes, there are valid reasons for sending an occasional train early (although a station announcement during the unscheduled 15-minute gap would have been nice). That's why I left myself a cushion.
I've had my morning train come consistantly at 0658 for weeks, and then suddenly the same job starts coming in at 0653 every day.
When is it scheduled to come?
My own sad experience is that every time I try some convoluted yet seemingly brilliant scheme of mine to get around some service disruption, I regret it. It always takes way way WAY longer than if I'd just stayed with my original game plan.
If I had stayed with my original game plan, I would have missed the 0705 at Columbus Circle and caught the 0714, which would still have been taken out of service.
My only "mistake" was transferring to the express at Newkirk. How could I have expected that we would have to wait five minutes to enter the terminal to allow one northbound local to leave?
You complain far too much. You could have just waited for the next B, and not try to transfer around and try to beat the congestion. The chances are you would have gotten there by 9.20 anyway. You were delayed by exactly 37 minutes. Now you try driving and see if you can keep your delay-variability on a very bad day to within 40 mins of your scheduled arrival, esp given that as soon as you have a car crash on an expressway, you're looking at at least an hour's delay...
AEM7
I missed one B train and rode the next three consecutive B trains. I didn't miss any trains except the first.
Of course the subway is still more reliable than driving, although at that time of day, once I get through Midtown, the (against-the-peak) drive is always fast. (Last semester, when I had an 8:00 class, I'd occasionally drive, and it never took more than 45 minutes, door to door.)
The only advantage to walking to CPW is that I get to claim a seat early.
And why would I take the Q when the B takes less time to reach Brighton Beach?
I want a line whose conductors are given information when trouble is afoot, or at least when their own trains are taken out of service.
Does that seem unreasonable to you?
A very worthy goal. One question: how will NYCT enforce this? Holding lights at every time point?
And that one that came 15 minutes later was REALLY the one due at 7:44 and also running late?
Shit happens.
Leave home earlier, don't count on getting to your destination on time if you plan on catching the last schedules possible.
You're starting to sound like someone else on BusTalk who isn't even from NYC....
And that one that came 15 minutes later was REALLY the one due at 7:44 and also running late?
Sure. And maybe it was the train due at 6:32 Monday evening.
But I doubt it. If there had been a blockage further up the line, then once the blockage was released, one would expect the trains to follow each other closely, not to be 15 minutes apart.
Shit happens.
Indeed, but surely someone, somewhere, knew what was going on. Why didn't that person relay the information to the affected C/R's, so they could inform their passengers?
Leave home earlier, don't count on getting to your destination on time if you plan on catching the last schedules possible.
You obviously didn't even read my post. I left with enough time to get to work by 8:40, a good half hour -- three times the average headway on the B -- before I needed to be there. I rushed to catch the B because I didn't want to reduce the cushion to 21 minutes. On any other day, I would have still made it to work early even if I had missed that B and its follower.
You're starting to sound like someone else on BusTalk who isn't even from NYC....
You're welcome to toss around insults, but might I recommend first reading the posts of those you're insulting?
1) Police activity at 7th Avenue in Brooklyn due to a large group of school "children' fighting in the station.
2) Police activity at Pacific Street in Brooklyn due to a suspicious package.
Both situations were reported via station public address systems (I heard the announcements) and crews received info via radio from control center.
Perhaps public address systems in Brooklyn were in use (scratch that -- they were definitely in use, as I heard announcements at DeKalb, Atlantic, and 7th as my train made those stops), but the public address systems at W4 and Broadway-Lafayette were silent.
Perhaps crews in Brooklyn were informed, but crews in Manhattan were not. The conductor of the B train that was turned back at W4 had no idea why he was turned back. Perhaps the information was being broadcast only to B1, but that doesn't cut it for the southbound B.
Were all stations put through an overhaul of lighting at around the same time? Many pictures pre-early 70's have incandescent lighting. Then into the 70's, most stations were now lit by fluorescent lighting.
Thanks.....
Pelham Parkway on the White Plains Road Line (2/5) and Middletown Road or Buhre Ave (I forget which) still have it, last time I was there.
--Mark
David
Didn't Shephard, Van Siclen, and Liberty also open from day one with Euclid and flourescent lighting in 1948?
Thanks...
Yes, most stations had bare incandescent bulbs from day one. The Contract One stations, had fancy plasterwork around them, but they still were bare bulbs (in addition to natural light from sjylights. Again, believe it or not, the bare incandescent bulbs gave a much more soothing light (although much dimmer) than the florurescent lighting.
Actually, in the IND stations, BMTY stations, and the later, not Contract One stations, the ceilings have small arches in the ceilings that really went well with the bulbs. Each arch was sort of lit up with the bulb if it had one, giving a nice effect (sort of the effect like 34th/Broadway is lit with the "arches lit up"). The stations were the renovations have put the flourescent lighting into those arches have a much more appealing look to the lighting than the stations with the "standard" flourescent lighting along the trackway.
Are the permanent washes up yet? At the far east end of the yard, a lot of pipes have been driven into the ground but no new trackage has been placed yet.
Join fellow SubTalkers and Railfans alike for an evening of craziness on the subway! Real straphangers know that the system comes alive at night – GOs, Hobos, Live Poetry in Motion, Musicians, Trash-Trains, Redbird Sightings, Diesels… and, of course, the Joy of 20-Minute Headways. Avoid the overcrowding that is Rush Hour and join us for the uncertainty of Late-Night Service!
We will be meeting on the UPTOWN BMT TIMES SQUARE PLATFORM on the SOUTH END (past the construction – I’ll be in a Boston Red Sox hat) at 10:00 p.m. SHARP! (THIS SATURDAY NIGHT -- MARCH 20TH)
Portions of this event will be videotaped as well as captured on still photography.
Everyone who wishes to videotape and/or take still photography must do so in accordance with NYCRR Title 21. Chapter XXI Section 1050.9(c) or they will be asked to leave.
Please either reply to this post or email subtalk@railfanwindow.com if you wish to attend so we can have an estimate in place by early Saturday evening.
MAKE SURE YOU WEAR YOUR SUBTALK ID TAG!
(Organized by Jarid Maged and Sir Ronald of McDonald)
I have always thought of some of you as being really going overboard when it comes to being a railfan. Now I think you are just nuts.
However since you arranged to meet at the Uptown BMT platform at Times Square, how will this happen if the N/B platform becomes closed due to an emergency because of this G.O.
Last time it happened, it was supposed to be an harmless S/B 49th st bypass. But the S/B Times Suare platform was dangerously overcrowded and by the late afternoon, it had to be closed also.
I'd suggest the S/B platform at the same location if that's the case.
"Newkirk Plaza" David
www.stationreporter.net
how about in april when its a bit warmer and its vacation.
Maybe we could vote...:-P
I really think it would be better if we did this even next Saturday night so that we can prepare for our sleep accordingly.
Chuck Greene
How many people are we talking about?
If a significant amount of people are committed to going in two weeks, then we can do it again then.
Regards,
...on-a-stick
(^_^)
You are a god.
Aww Kryst now I definitely have to make it. Booooooooooooooo hiiissssssssssssss. :)
A great time was had by all, and we are looking forward to April 3.
Regards,
Jimmy
Slides of incident
What's wierd is it looks like the train didn't run into him so much as he ran into the train! Just goes to show it pays to keep your eyes open. I was also glad to read this part:
Hall was treated and released with just bruises.
Mark
Reminds me of an incident back in November 1987 on Amtrak... somewhere around Ashland, Virginia, the Amtrak train I was riding from Rocky Mount, NC to NYP was struck by a '69 Cougar at the rear of the second unit about 0400 (no gates at the crossing, but there were flashing lights). Amtrak was moving quite slowly anyway - not sure if we had just left the Asland station or were approaching it - so the train stopped within 400'. My children and I would have slept right through it except for all the gawkers on the train who leaned over us to open the curtains and look out (our windows were right at the center of the "excitement" when the train stopped).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The C - all times except nights (the A covers service as a local during this time).
I know. Just goes to show that you can find a lot of information at www.nycsubway.org
David
http://www.nycsubway.org/cars/r110a.html
http://www.nycsubway.org/cars/r110b.html
That is being discussed in the original thread. Why did you start another one?
Why is that it all be bunching and that is not comfortble for passengers on the 2nd train.
Who in the what now?
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/19/arts/design/19SUBW.html
I greatly admire Parsons and the skill with which he made his vision a reality.
"There is a porcelain-coated handle or "strap" — hence the term straphangers".
We are all aware that before they had those handles there were actually leather straps for the standees in the elevated car to hold onto. Thatis where the term comes from.
Wrong Parsons. The Boulevard is named for horticulturalist Samuel Bowne Parsons.
However, I discovered that there will be 3 late afternoon talks associated with the exhibition.
http://www.nypl.org/research/calendar/prog/sibl/progseries.cfm
The Subway at 100: General Parsons and the Birth of the NYC Subway
Wednesday, March 31, 5:30 PM to 7:00 PM
"Evolution of Tunneling in New York City."
A slide lecture presented by James E. Monsees, Senior Vice President and Technical Director of Underground Structures, Parsons Brinckerhoff.
Tuesday, April 6, 5:30 PM to 7:00 PM
"General Parsons: The Renaissance Man."
A presentation by James L. Lammie, Parsons Brinckerhoff, about William Barclay Parsons, the Chief Engineer for the construction of the first underground subway in New York City that opened to the public on October 27, 1904.
Thursday, April 22, 5:30 PM to 7:00 PM
"Medals and Tokens of the New York City Subway."
A slide lecture presented by George Cuhaj, Collector, illustrating medals commemorating important events in the early subway development, and some seldom seen tokens from the IRT (1927) and BMT (1940’s), and as well the fifty year span of NYCTA fare tokens (starting in 1953).
All the lectures will be held in Room 018, Conference Center, Lower Level, unless otherwise indicated. They are free and open to the public. Seating is limited. Seating is on a first come, first seated basis, with the exception of the April 1, 2004 program. Inquiries about programs may be made by calling (212) 592-7000.
So please tell us the author of this article so I can read it on Lexis-Nexis.
If you had tried to register, you'd know it wasn't free.
Also, will the weekday evening, night & weekend G trains be cut back to Court Sq.
G trains get layed over at Church Avenue because it's the most convenient place to store them.
The G certainly could be extended to Church, but more trains would need to operate to maintain current headways (which aren't that great on the G to begin with). The MTA believes—rightly or wrongly—that there are better ways to employ the available rolling stock. However, if the express tracks are ever put into revenue service, as is oft-rumoured to be in the works, then the G would need to be extended at least to Church.
Also, will the weekday evening, night & weekend G trains be cut back to Court Sq.
That was what the MTA wanted to do in the first place, when the 63rd Street connector went live. The current service pattern was then offered as a compromise, due to the community uproar. The MTA could try to do it again, but they'd have to go through the public hearing process, where presumably the same uproar would be heard. Having conceded the point, I doubt that the MTA would come back with this idea again anytime soon.
I like the idea of extending the V and G further into Brooklyn. Good plan. And 2005 isn't that far away.
Besides the necessary equipment that will be needed the repairs to the Bergen Street Tower will have to be completed which will not happen until 2005.
Thank You
Robert
That's speculation, no definitive plans do to so exist.
Does the lower level of Bergen St figure into these plans?
Since I have a vested interest in seeing my home station rehabilitated, I cannot imagine that the MTA would allow Carroll Gardens and Cobble Hill riders to be completely cut off from a direct ride to Manahttan. Would they seriously make us ride the G to Hoyt/Schermerhorn and transfer to the A/C? This would just be for Bergen St riders, but Caroll St, Smith-9th, and 4th Ave.
The F is packed every morning, and with the reviatlization of the neighborhoods means that there has to at least be a switch point at Bergen Street or else everyone gets off at Hoyt/Schermerhorn, goes upstairs and over to the Manhattan-bound platform, and gets on a packed A/C train.
Not opening Bergen St Lower Level would put us back into the stone ages.
Thanks makes sense... i.e. there would need to be a third line running thru Bergen St. F, G, and the V bypassing on the express track.
But if for some reason it is unpalatable to extend the V, wouldn't having the lower level available make sense? Relegate Carroll, Smith/9th, and 4th Ave to G local-only, while making Bergen a transfer point for Manhattan-bound service.
Express service will only return to the line if direct Manhattan service is retained at local stations (whether via the F, the V, or something else entirely). If the V isn't extended, then the F will remain as is.
David
Makes it easier on the tower operators. Reduces otherwise unnecessary switching. Reduces conflict with (E) trains south of Briarwood.
Those are the ideas I could think of.
#1 has nothing to do with it. #2 is a better answer. Remember a train has to go slower over a switch.... any time you save by giving a run you're losing more by putting a train over a switch.
There are also other reasons which, unfortunately, I'm not free to state here.
The F train Left from the "Express" track at 179th st, which had to switch to the local track before 169th street, and Switch back to the express track after 75th Ave. When all it had to do was a straight run down the Express track to 71'st Continental.
It also aloows them to pretend the train made all stops. Otherwes Control would be on their ass at the terminal.
It also aloows them to pretend the train made all stops. Otherwise Control would be on their ass at the terminal.
First, a S/B C train goes BIE at Canal St , right on the switch from local to express. A subtalker on a passing N/B train sees this, and in an effort to keep service balanced, pulls the cord on a N/B C train, as it too switches from express to local.
Then, at the exact same time, a bum at DeKalb Av decides to throw a piece of wood onto the third rail of the montague tunnel. There isn't any smoking from the incident, but it does damage the 3rd rail. A subtalker sees the incident and realizes what an opportunity this is to test 'service planner game'. He hands the bum a piece of Aluminum he happens to carry in his pocket, and encourages the bum to fling this on the third rail as well. Smoke fills DeKalb within seconds.
Only moments later Osama bin Laden and his band of merry men hijack a 3 train, and strap bombs to it. Somehow, they have disabled the emergency brakes from engaging when red signals have passed. They also figured out some way to override switch controls, and they have the ability to roll back and forth on the 3 line, endlessly, until their demands are met. Thus, the entire 3 line trackage must be kept clear, or else they will collide with the train ahead of them and detonate, killing passengers on both trains.
Subtalkers replicate this on the 4 train.
Immediately after the Osama situation is learned of, Aliens from outer space arrive in New York. They see the existence of a subway system, and are highly pissed, for no apparent reason. So they use some type of laser technology, and target the most heavily used station, Times Sq. All trackage through Times Sq complex is destroyed, lasting through the evening rush hour. Subtalk minds come together, and realize that this would the perfect time to try creating conditions for the ultimate 'Service Planner Game'. So, all the tech minds here come together, create a laser, and do exactly what the aliens did, at the Union Sq station.
Seeing all this chaos, the subway gods become furious. How could their subjects allow this to happen? In a burst of rage, All train crews are struck dead, leaving only train dispatchers to operate trains.
Subtalkers take note of this, and kill all station agents.
There. How would you operate service? To keep it interesting, All LIRR, MNRR, NJT, PATH and AMTRAK trains are completely shut down, for no obvious reason.
Can you come up with a service plan?
If you want to play a game, that fine. But you NEVER say that Subtalkers can be copycats in the worst way.
Crap, even Aliens are part of the pro-highway propagandist campaign!
[All trackage through Times Sq complex is destroyed, lasting through the evening rush hour....[Subtalkers] do exactly what the aliens did, at the Union Sq station.]
It would take longer than a midday to get those tracks back on line (Look at the Cortlandt St. (1) station!), and that Osama 3 train and quasi-Osama 4 train would fall into the "holes" and blow up, etc.
1: Van Cortlandt Park to 137 St.
2: Wakefield to 149 St-GC, President St to Flatbush.
3: Service suspended, entire length.
9: Also.
4: Also.
5: Dyre to East 180.
6: PBP to 125 St.
7: Grand Central to Flushing.
A: Runs on the F and D lines from Jay Street to 59th St. When BIE trains clear, restore Cranberry Tunnel service between Jay Street and West 4th Street. All trains run local.
C: Service suspended.
E: Service suspended.
B: Service suspended.
D: Shuttle between 36th St/4th Av and Coney Island.
F: Service normal.
V: Service extended to Jamaica Center.
G: Service extended to Jamaica Center, with walking transfer in place between Broadway (G) and Lorimer Street (J) stations.
J: Service extended to Gravesend-86th Street.
M: Shuttle between Metropolitan Avenue and Myrtle/Broadway
Z: Service suspended.
L: Bedford Avenue to Canarsie.
N: Shuttle between 57th St/7th Avenue and Astoria
Q: Shuttle between Prospect Park and Brighton Beach
R: Shuttle between Pacific Street and 95th Street
W: Service suspended.
Franklin Avenue and Rockaway Park shuttles operate normal.
Bus substitutions, where feasible, will operate along sections without subway service.
We can assume that the Osama and imitation Osama train can magically traverse the holes at 42nd and 14th.
It's a joke. Of course it would take longer than a midday to rebuild those entire complexes.
Yes, I know.
Some Q trains Shuttle Run to Atlantic on either Track for Pacific St Connection.
Use other Routes or Buses For Gaps in service. Most lines covered.
A: 207th st to 59/CC
B: SUSPENDED
C: Lefferts/Far Rock to Jay St.
D: Stillwell/CI to Pacific St via express
E: JC to Union Turnpike shuttle only, skips Van Wyck Blvd and arrives UT at express tracks.
F: Normal Service via. G Crosstown line.
G: SUSPENDED, See F
J: JC to Marcy Ave
L: RP to Lorimer St for transfer to rerouted F.
M: Weekend shuttle operating all times during this ESP.
N: 86th st to 59th st shuttle
R: 95th St to Court St-BH and 71/FH to 57/7 via 63rd st line to cover for loss of F service. 57/6 is closed
V: SUSPENDED
W: Astoria to 42nd/TS only, skips 49th st in both directions.
PATH: Newark to Hoboken or EXPL only
LIRR: All trains diverted to either Flatbush or Hunters Point. Some trains start-end at Jamaica
NJT: No service beyond either Secaucus Junction. PJ and Pasack Valley trains to HOB terminal.
I will get the buses later. Thank
Q; BB to Prospect Park, shuttle buses to Atlantic/Pacific.
A: High Street - Far Rockaway
B: 207 Street - 34 Street/Herald Square, local
C: York Street - Lefferts Boulevard
D: 205 Street - 34 Street/Herald Square, express
E: Jamaica Center - Lex Av/53 St
F: 179 Street - Prospect Park via Crosstown, Culver, thru Stillwell and via Brighton Line, all stops in Brooklyn but express in Queens
G: York Street - Church Avenue
J: Jamaica Center - Marcy Avenue
L: Bedford Avenue - Rockaway Parkway
M: Metropolitan Avenue - Myrtle Av/Broadway
D/N: Court Street - Bay 50/86 St via 4 Av/West End/Sea Beach
D operates southbound via West End, northbound via Sea Beach
N operates southbound via Sea Beach, northbound vai West End
(loops through Stillwell)
Q: 71 Avenue - 34 Street/Herald Square, via 63 St/Bway
R: Court Street - 95th Street
S: All run normal
plus Bay Parkway - Stillwell Avenue shuttle
V: 71 Avenue - 57 Street/6 Avenue, via 63 St
W: Ditmars Boulevard - 42 Street/Times Square, skips 49 Street
Z: Suspended
1: 242 Street to Times Square
2: 241 Street - 96 Street
3: 148 Street - 110 Street
4: Woodlawn - 86 Street
5: Dyre Avenue - E 180 Street
6: Pelham Bay Park - Grand Central
7: Main Street - Times Square
9: Suspended
LIRR
Far Rockaway - Flatbush
Long Beach - Flatbush
Babylon - Flatbush
Ronkonkoma - Hunterspoint Avenue
Great Neck - Hunterspoint Avenue
Montauk - Long Island City via lower Montauk
Greenport - Ronkonkoma
Oyster Bay - Jamaica
Port Jefferson - Woodside
Port Washington - Jamaica
Hempstead - Jamaica
West Hempstead - Valley Stream
PATH-Shut Down
A 207 St-42 St-PABT via CPW Local
B 205 St-34 St Herald Sq via CPW Local
C Jay St Boro Hall-Lefferts Blvd via Local
D Stillwell Ave-Pacific St via 4 Ave Exp
E Suspended
F Suspended
G Ave X-179 Jamaica via Crosstown
J Jamaica Center-Marcy Ave
L Rockaway Pkwy-Lorimer St
M Metropolitan Ave-Marcy Ave
N 86 St-Court St Boro Hall
Q Brighton Beach-Atlantic Ave(single track bet. Prospect Pk and Atlantic Ave)
R 95 St-59 St(single track shuttle)
S Franklin Shuttle-Normal
S Rockaway Pk Shuttle-Round Robin service between Euclid Ave, Rockaway Park, and Far Rockaway.
S 42 St Shuttle-Normal
S 57 St/7 Ave-21 St Queensbridge
V Jamaica Center-Lexington Ave via QB Local
W Ditmars Blvd-Lexington Ave
Z Suspended
SIR Normal
1 242 St-34 St Penn Station
2 241 St-96 St
3 Suspended
4 Woodlawn-Grand Central via Lex local
5 Dyre Ave-East 180 St
6 Pelham Bay Park-125 St
7 Normal
9 Suspended
LIRR Normal
Metro-North Normal
NJ Transit Normal
Amtrak Normal
Fare discounts to be offered on New York Bus Service, Liberty Bus, Command Bus, and all private express bus lines in affected areas. New York Waterway to assist on Uptown/Downtown service as well as NJ Service. Single occupancy vehicles restricted on all bridges and tunnels leading into Manhattan(except GWB and HHB) and within Manhattan south of 168 St.
It's messy but this flex should work out.
Regards,
Jimmy
The clock is ticking, tick-tock, tick-tock.
Regards,
Jimmy
LOL
But it's nice that Bronx stations are finally getting the rehab treatment.
If I were filthy rich and had the money to donate, I would consider giving money to put in ADA elevators.
Today, this is a recording.
The aviation industry has been using in flight event recorders, known
affectionately as the "black box" for years. Although the box is actually
bright orange in color to make it easier to find in the event of a crash,
it is called the black box just the same. These recorders record what the
flight crew was doing with regards to all the controls of the plane.
Numerous activities are recorded constantly including air speed, altitude,
attitude and the like. These recorders are very precise and all information
garnered from such devices is carefully and thoroughly studied in the event
of a crash or other mishap.
For years to a lesser extent, the railroad industry has followed suit
applying different types of recording devices to locomotives. Over the
years these recorders have evolved from being simple speed recorders to
total event recorders. We'll look at speed recorders first.
The speed recorder was a device that recorded just that, the speed. There
were a couple of different styles used and in my earlier days of
railroading I was exposed to two of them. One type was the mechanical
recorder. A mechanical recorder was mounted above the speedometer. This
device used a roll of paper threaded through the recorder to a take up
spool. A stylus scrawled a line on the paper which resembled graph paper.
The graph was plotted with lines in multiples of ten.
The stylus was driven by the same device that moved the speedometer needle.
As the speed increased the needle moved higher. The stylus followed
scrawling a line upon the graph of the paper in the speed recorder. The
take up spool pulled the paper through the recorder as the locomotive moved
in either direction recording the speed anytime the locomotive was in
motion.
While this was a pretty good system, it was by no means foolproof. Some
railroads did not lock or seal the recorders so they were easily accessible
by the crews using the locomotives. I personally know Engineers from some
roads that could and did tamper with them. It was actually quite an easy
task to alter them. By doing so, you could have the speed recorder showing
your speed to be slower than you were actually proceeding. Or in some
cases, people would simply pull the tape out or otherwise alter it in some
manner.
The MoPac used to seal the recorder to prevent such tampering. Theirs was a
two step prevention system. First, they locked the recorder. They used a
lock that resembled the lock you see on a Coke machine; the type that
requires a round key. Of course being that we railroaders are a resourceful
bunch, it was not that difficult to find one of these types of keys that
would fit the lock. The right key could open the lock and allow
unauthorized access to the recorder. Understanding such resourcefulness the
MoPac added a check and balance to their system; a numbered seal.
A seal looking just like those used to seal the latches on freight cars
were used on the recorders along with the lock. Before locking and sealing
the recorder, the Machinist would write the seal number at the beginning of
the tape, or at that point on the tape where they inspected the recorder.
Along with the seal number would be the date, time and location along with
their initials or name.
Whenever a tape had to be pulled for inspection, the seal was retained
along with the tape. Also, if a tape was pulled in the presence of the
Engineer, the employee pulling the tape would have the Engineer sign it.
This was a measure to protect the Engineer so that some overzealous officer
could not substitute a tape in order to try to discipline that employee.
The seal number was checked against the tape to see that they matched. If
it didn't an investigation was launched to determine who might have changed
the seal and possibly tampered with the recorder and tape.
In one instance an Engineer kept a cache of seals in his grip. He could
break the seal and use a key he had acquired to open the recorder and thus,
tamper with it. In several instances a tape was pulled from his locomotive
and checked against the seal that was removed with the tape. Through a
period of time using of the process of elimination, they narrowed it down
to this guy. He was then set up and eventually caught tampering and
altering the speed recorder. As a result he was given harsh discipline.
There was also an electronic speed recorder that used magnetic tape to
record the speed of the locomotive. This tape looked just like an 8 track
tape cartridge. For those of you too young to remember 8 track tapes, these
were a large cassette, about two or three time larger than a standard
cassette tape. These 8 track cartridges used a continuous tape loop and
could play constantly. Because they were the continuous loop of tape they
did not require rewinding.
Being there was only so much tape you could stuff inside one of these
cartridges, they used four channels often referred to as programs to fill
the tape with music. Each channel or program only covered a certain portion
of the width of the tape. Once reaching the end of that program (which was
where the single piece of tape was spliced together using what resembled a
piece of foil) the track would switch to the next program. What was enough
tape to provide say thirty minutes of music could become one hundred twenty
minutes of music on a single tape using four the programs.
The tape cartridge recording systems used in locomotives operated at a much
slower speed allowing them to record more data for a longer period of time,
usually between 24 and 48 hours. Once reaching the end of total running
time, if the tape was not removed it just recorded right over the old data.
Eventually the event recorder was developed. I don't know who developed the
first model or when it actually hit the market though. This device
electronically recorded additional data besides the speed. Such other
properties were added to the list including the position of the throttle or
dynamic brake handle, direction of travel, amperage that locomotive was
developing, brake pipe pressure of the air brake system of both the train
and locomotive brakes and even the brightness setting of the headlight.
This trend of using event recorders began around 1980. Well perhaps I
should clarify that; the first time I recall ever observing an event
recorder was in 1980. It is quite possible they may have been around
longer. Hopefully one of you may have some information and convey that
along to us all. However, it was not until the 1990's that the Federal
Railroad Administration required event recorders as mandatory.
During that interim period between their introduction and their mandatory
requirement, railroads used their own philosophies to guide them with
regards to the use of event recorders. MoPac began ordering them on all new
locomotives acquired beginning in 1980. Every new locomotive obtained came
with an event recorder right from the factory. Fifty-two second hand GP38-2
locomotives acquired from the estate of the Rock Island which was in
liquidation came equipped with recorders as well, although they were a
different brand and model than what MoPac was purchasing with their new
locomotives. And if I recall correctly these were just speed recorders
though.
The Santa Fe installed event recorders on even numbered locomotives only.
Their rationale must have been that every locomotive consist will likely
have at least one even numbered unit within it. Other roads installed in
only on power assigned to through freight service. Yard and local power
such as switchers and smaller Geeps did not receive event recorders.
And with the philosophy on what units to install event recorders upon, what
they recorded was also up to the individual railroads. Pretty much all of
them recorded speed, direction and distance. Others added a few features
here and there like whistle and bell while others like MoPac seemed to go
for the whole enchilada. Pretty much everything an Engineer could control
was recorded.
Event recorders only record data, they do not record voices. It is probably
a good thing our in cab conversations are not recorded otherwise we'd all
likely be out of work. Voice conversations carried on the radio and
telephone may be recorded though. Usually the Train Dispatcher and
Yardmaster phones (commercial, company and trackside) and radios are
recorded. The phone lines to the Crew Callers are also recorded as well.
As I mentioned, the use of event recorders in the US was mandated by
lawmakers in Washington DC. 49 CFR (Code of Federal Regulations) 229.5(g)
defines an event recorder and reads as follows; "Event recorder means a
device, designed to resist tampering, that monitors and records data on
train speed, direction of motion, time, distance, throttle position, brake
applications and operations (including train brake, independent brake, and,
if so equipped, dynamic brake applications and operations) and, where
locomotive is so equipped, cab signal aspect(s), over the most recent 48
hours of operation of the electrical system of the locomotive on which it
is installed. A device, designed to resist tampering that monitors and
records the specified data only when the locomotive is in motion shall be
deemed to meet this definition provided the device was installed prior to
the effective date of this rule and records the specified data for the last
eight hours the locomotive was in motion."
Let's examine this rule a little closer. We'll start with that part reading
"designed to resist tampering." While pretty much self explanatory this may
need some clarification. The event recorder must be constructed of a
material strong enough to prevent employees or anybody else from damaging
or interrupting the normal operation of the recorder. Now if one knows what
they are doing, they can interrupt the operation of the recorder, but not
damage it. However, in causing interruption to the operation of the device
you are then in violation of another federal regulation that prohibits
tampering with a safety appliance.
The event recorder monitors speed and the direction of the motion of the
engine, the throttle setting, any and all brake applications which would
include the air brake system and/or dynamic brakes, and the actual time of
day. The speed is constantly recorded by the event recorder. Even while the
locomotive is standing, the recorder is recording the lack of motion. The
direction of travel is monitored as well. Again, even if the locomotive is
not moving, the position of the reverser handle is constantly recorded. As
for distance traveled, I have been told by the folks that manufacture one
brand of recorder that they are accurate to within ten feet of total actual
distance traveled.
With regards to distance traveled, this feature is used to determine where
the train or engine actually was when any and all action was taken with the
events being recorded. It can also be clearly determined when the Engineer
took or failed to take any required action depending upon the situation.
When the issue of operating in excess of any speed limit, intent can be
determined using the event recorder. A study of the data can offer proof of
intent to speed if it shows that there was the act of sustaining that
higher speed.
If the Engineer sustained the throttle in Run 8 well after the train
reached a speed in excess of the timetable, or bulletined speed limit, the
event recorder will show such. If no intent was made to reduce the speed to
the requirement, the event recorder readout will be used as evidence of the
intent to violate.
The event recorder will also record the lack of motion as well. The
rationale behind monitoring a locomotive not moving is quite simple. If the
locomotive is not moving for any valid reason, it could mean that somebody
is goofing off. I have worked with a few folks over the years that seemed
to work harder at not working than actually working. They might talk on the
radio like they are doing something when in reality they are doing nothing
more than talking on the radio.
I've heard of guys doing just this only to be caught by some weed watcher
observing their lack of motion. They are on the radio instructing the
Engineer to back up, take them ahead, slow down, kick them or stop, the
entire time just sitting there. The event recorder can prove they were
doing nothing while they were pretending to be working.
Monitoring speed and throttle position as well as any and all brake system
applications are quite obvious. In addition to any accidents or collisions,
other episodes that occur will use data from the event recorder when they
are investigated. A train separation or break in two requires the data from
the event recorder to be retrieved and examined. This data will provide
information as to whether the Engineer mishandled the train thus leading to
the break in two or if it was caused from some means outside of his
control.
On those locomotives equipped with cab signal systems such as automatic
train stop, automatic train control or coded cab signal systems, the
aspects of signals displayed on the cab signal readout in the cab are also
input into the event recorder. This data can be critical where there are no
line side signals to test should there be an event or episode of some sort.
In the event of a speeding infraction, the downloaded information will
confirm what signal aspect the train was operating under. If the signal was
more restrictive than a clear (green) indication, particularly one that has
a maximum speed associated with it and the train is suspected to be or
caught by radar traveling faster; the tail of the tape will reveal this
fact.
As I have mentioned some railroads will include more applications on their
event recorders than what the FRA requires. Information about whistle,
bell, sanders, headlight and ditch light use may also be included. Some
railroads will plug the end of train telemetry control display unit into
the event recorder as well. An alerter or crew vigilance system may also be
monitored.
Why this other data being recorded? The whistle, bell and headlight data
would be crucial in the event of a collision at a grade crossing with a
motor vehicle. Some of the first questions always asked when such an
episode occurs (after "How fast were you going?") are "Were you sounding
the whistle and ringing the bell?" and very also "Did you have the
headlight on bright?"
The event recorder is probably the main reason people are complaining more
and more about hearing the whistles blowing, especially late at night. The
event recorder is recording your actions. It does not care that it is three
in the morning and neither do railroad officials when checking data from an
event recorder. I know the neighbors don't appreciate our efforts, but my
job is far more important to me than their sleep. And in the event I should
collide with an automobile, not properly sounding the whistle could result
in more than just discipline from the carrier, it could result in criminal
charges if somebody in the vehicle is injured or killed.
There are several types of event recorders in use within the rail industry.
The newer, high tech units use a computer chip to record the information. A
lap top computer is used to download the information from the event
recorder. The lap top will be plugged into the system and information
stored on this chip will be downloaded. This information will then be run
through a program that prints out all of the data on screen and on paper
for further evaluation. Older event recorders use that 8 track tape
cartridge. This tape records constantly while the locomotive is running be
it idling or moving. If information needs to be retrieved, the tape is
simply removed from the recorder unit and plugged into a machine that will
then play out the tape, record the information and print it out onto a
sheet of paper. It will provide the information required to assist with any
investigation.
While I had observed the recorders on new locomotives arriving at the MoPac
in 1980, I didn't know anything about them other than that they recorded
data. During my days at the Locomotive Engineer Training Center at North
Little Rock in July 1981, we were given extensive information about these
recorders. We were told what they did and how they worked. Their purpose
was fully explained to us.
It was quite apparent even back then, for us to see that the event recorder
could easily be considered a double edged sword. While using it as a
defensive tool against lawsuits when collisions with motor vehicles and the
like occur, the event recorder is also used to investigate or even spy on
the crews. As I would learn throughout my career, they became just that, a
tool to monitor our performance.
Back in North Little Rock we were told of a situation in Texas involving a
train/motor vehicle collision. The lead unit of the locomotive consist had
one of the brand new event recorders and the data at the time of the
episode was retrieved from this unit. The motorist involved as well as a
"witness" claimed the Engineer did not have the headlight illuminated and
was not sounding the whistle as required. The motorist that managed to
survive the episode was suing the MoPac. The data report from the event
recorder showed the Engineer was operating within the timetable speed
limit; the headlight was illuminated on bright, with both the whistle and
bell in use in compliance with the rules. As a result of this information,
the lawsuit was dismissed and the motorist received no monetary
compensation from the railroad. It also saved the Engineer his job.
In my days as a Trainmaster, I have witnessed first hand, how the event
recorder can be used as both friend and foe of an Engineer and train crew.
In one instance, an Engineer was accused of causing flat spots on the
wheels of a locomotive. The tale of the tape from the event recorded
clearly showed that he indeed was using improper braking methods on his
locomotives. Improper to the point that it was a violation of the rules as
it caused the flat spots on the locomotives he was operating. As a result
of the findings an investigation was called, all evidence against him
presented including the readout from the event recorder and he wound up
being removed from service for sixty days of unpaid discipline.
In another situation, an Engineer failed to stop his train before passing
the end of the limits he was authorized to operate. When he realized he was
going beyond his limits, he put the train into emergency to stop it. He got
stopped, recovered the air and then simply backed up. There were several
infractions involved here; backing up without permission and not making an
inspection of the entire train before moving it after an emergency
application of the brakes. When the train stopped from the emergency
application, several cars derailed. Since no inspection was made he had no
way of knowing about the derailment. He just began shoving back and the
train again went into emergency. This time he didn't do it, the train did.
Upon further revue it was discovered that now, not only were they derailed;
there were several cars sideways. This caused significant track damage as
well as damage to the derailed cars.
When this entire episode was investigated, the Engineer first claimed the
train went into emergency when he was bringing them to a stop. He did not
mention that he put the train into emergency and then backed up. When the
tapes were pulled and examined, the truth came out. When all was said and
done, he was given some time off for bad behavior and then had to go
through a remedial training course before being reinstated.
"The truth will set you free!"
In the event company officials feel that a crew is laying down on them,
they may hide in the weeds and observe such a crew at work. If they witness
such actions, they will download the event recorder to study it and verify
the results against the actions they observed. Again, an investigation may
be called charging the crew with delaying the job or failure to expedite.
And the data from the event recorder can and will be used as evidence
against the crew.
"Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law."
In more than one situation over the years, an overzealous railroad official
has accused an Engineer of failing to properly execute their duties in
compliance with the rules. I have witnessed this first hand as well in my
days as a railroad official. One of my fellow officers had it in for a
particular Engineer. This Engineer was involved in an episode that required
having the event recorder read to find him at fault.
I was one of the officers that got to read the tapes for my take on the
data and saw no fault of the Engineer. Several others agreed with this
reading and the Engineer received no disciplinary action against him.
An Engineer that I know told me of being accused of improper train handling
after his train experienced a break in two. It seems that the official that
initially read the data felt this Engineer had improperly advanced the
throttle when starting his train causing severe draft force that resulted
in a failed drawbar. This official was ready to call an investigation to
discipline the Engineer involved. Another official and this guy's union
representative read the tapes and showed the overzealous officer that he
had incorrectly read the data. As a result of the "second opinion," there
was no investigation and no disciplinary measures were handed out.
A situation in which I was the first officer responding to was the failure
of an Engineer to stop at a stop signal. I heard the situation occur as the
Engineer reported passing a dark signal. This particular signal was a
control point and according to the rules, in the absence of a properly
displayed signal, it must be regarded as the most restrictive signal that
can be displayed. In this case, that would be a stop signal.
I got the call moments later and headed out to investigate. Both the
Engineer and Conductor involved told me of the dark signal. The Engineer
told me that he had only operated against the current of traffic at this
particular location once prior to this night. He went on to tell me he knew
there was another signal here somewhere, but he was not exactly sure where.
His train was coming out of a curve and he stated he was only going about 3
MPH with the train brakes applied. When the dark signal came into his range
of vision he was almost right on top of it. He got his three engines and
part of one car past this signal before coming to a stop.
Two other officials that were summoned to the scene handled downloading the
event recorders. We all analyzed the data and his story about his train
speed and the fact that he had the brakes set indicated he was proceeding
in a manner consistent with safe train operation. According to the Operator
on duty in the tower that controlled this control point, the dark signal he
passed was indicated to be a proceed indication according to the control
panel in the tower. She did not know the signal was dark. Based on both of
their stories and the information retrieved from the event recorder, it was
decided that the Engineer was not negligent. Instead of receiving a
decertification of his license, he was given 15 days off for "Conduct not
becoming a CSX employee." (He was a CSX Engineer operating over the IHB on
trackage rights). While not good, far better than the decertification and
the mandatory 30 days off. The information from the event recorder saved
him.
The FRA will allow the readout of an event recorder to be used to monitor
the skills and performance of Locomotive Engineers. Sufficient data will be
read and analyzed. If all is within the required parameters, the Engineer
will be credited with an approval of their skills and performance check.
Railroads also periodically pull the data from an event recorder to monitor
how the Engineers are performing. They are looking for violations with
regards to train handling or fuel conservation operation. If a pattern of
non-compliance is observed, the Engineer may get a monitor ride from a Road
Foreman of Engines to observe first hand what they are doing. Or, they may
receive that dreaded registered letter with the notice to appear at an
investigation for failure to comply with air brake and train handling
rules.
Should a locomotive not be equipped with an event recorder and it is the
lead unit of a locomotive consist or perhaps even the only locomotive
assigned to the train, the maximum speed that train may operate is 30 MPH.
In my days at the IHB, we were leasing several SW1500 locomotives from
National Railway Equipment. None of these units were equipped with event
recorders which restricted their speed to that maximum of 30 MPH. IHB did
not want to install the devices on these locomotives because once
installed, this equipment must remain even when they return it to the
owner. They could have requested as part of the lease agreement to have NRE
install such equipment prior to the lease or even to install it themselves
as part of the lease agreement.
Oftentimes locomotives assigned to captive yard service will not be
equipped with event recorders. These are usually, but not limited to switch
engines. A short line railroad that only has a maximum speed of 25 MPH will
often not install event recorders on their locomotives. Industrial
operations such as in plant railroads that are not common carriers are not
required to equip their locomotives with event recorders. Such locomotives
generally do not operate on mail line railroads and are not regulated by
the FRA as they are usually captive to the confines of an industrial
setting.
As I had mentioned earlier, tampering with an event recorder is a serious
offense as it is defined as tampering with a safety appliance under federal
law. A friend at one railroad told me of an Engineer being pulled out of
service and threatened with disciplinary action when it was discovered the
event recorder on the second unit of his consist had been disconnected from
its power source. The railroad was ready to fire this guy. It was learned
at about zero hour that another member of his crew that was riding the
second unit had actually disconnected the device. I never did learn why he
pulled off such a stunt, but the guy came forward and admitted that it was
him and not the Engineer who tampered with the device. The Engineer
received a reprieve from this incident. I don't recall what type of
discipline the other employee involved received.
After my 1989 triple fatality collision, the lawyers representing the
families of the decedents at my deposition kept asking me about event
recorders on my locomotives. Back in those days event recorders were not
required and the Wisconsin Central didn't seem too interested in applying
them to their locomotives. I had to fend off the question of their presence
(or lack thereof) numerous times throughout the deposition proceedings.
While there was an event recorder at one of the crossings there in Antioch
that was able to provide information as to my train speed, there was not
one at the crossing involved in the collision and there certainly was not
one on either of my two SD45 locomotives.
Yes Virginia, there are event recorders at some crossings. As the
technology for automatic crossing warning devices has evolved and improved
over the years, part of the evolution has included event recorders. Now
these recorders only record what is going on with regards to the equipment
used to warn and stop traffic at that site. These event recorders do not
convey any information as to what the Engineer is doing on the train. The
information recorded on these devices is specific to the activation and
operation of the automatic crossing warning devices. Train speed can be
calculated from these recorders, but there will be no other information
that can be gathered with regards to the operation of the train.
Now unlike the in flight event recorder of an airplane, should a locomotive
derail or be involved in some sort of wreck, the event recorders used by
the railroads do not emit a homing beacon to help locate them. And unlike
the black box on an airplane that is painted orange, on a locomotive the
black box really is painted black. And in some cases will have either or
green or red light on them which may, or may not blink or flash.
The event recorders are generally placed in a location on the locomotive
that makes for easy access when it is required to retrieve data from it.
They are generally placed in the nose of the locomotive and are usually
quite visible to all. As a result, their easy access has lead to commentary
about them to be scrawled upon the housing. I have seen such terms as
"snitch recorder, bitch box" or "rat box" written on them over the years.
Now interestingly enough, the trucking industry has successfully fought off
any legislation to equip tractor trailer trucks from the requirement of
event recorders. While I'm not saying they all do it, this probably stems
from the fact that there are more than a few drivers that routinely violate
the hours of service and certainly many more that drive well in excess of
the posted highway speed limits. With an event recorder on a truck, it
would be pretty easy for the law to catch drivers violating both the hours
of service and speed limits. Such event recorders could quickly be
downloaded at scales and inspection points or even anytime a truck is
stopped for a moving violation. It would be quite tough to explain how your
log book varies so widely from what the event recorder states. I guess
this would be the trucking industry attitude of "What the government don't
know won't hurt us."
And so it goes.
Tuch
Hot Times on the High Iron, ©2004 by JD Santucci
I betch there are even STEAM ENGINES that have the event recorders on them.
Elias
Yes, there are... any that are used on the mainline such as the big UP units (844, 3985) have them.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Mark
But on the other hand, if there is some way to avoid this inconvenience and added trip time, perhaps it ought to be pursued. However, short of building the ramp before tearing the old one down, I don't really see a way.
You can see the new portal from west of the Fleet Center, on Martha Way, just under the existing el.
This program (opening North Station/Under) in June is a whole lot better than the original idea, which was to turn ALL cars at Government Center and bus from there.
I hope to make it to Boston one more time before June so I can ride the Green Line one more time up the ramp and around the curve at North Station. And I'll miss hearing the screeching trolleys on the Causeway Street elevated.
BTW - is the old sign "North Station - Boston Garden" gone since the Fleet Center was built? Love the way native Bostonians say "NAAATH STATION - BAASTON GAAADEN."
But there are a number of nostalgic signs on the North Station Upper platform that should be preserved :-)
AEM7
Arborway, like it or not, had some legitimate issues.
I am sure that those here who are T/Os and C/Rs have some interesting stories on the subject.
Robert
By the way did I metion that these were R143's on the L,
Robert
Robert
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
Chuck Greene
Photos of the River Line from today are the last six on this page.
Photos from the River Line are the last 3 on this page.
Ok--First of all---Red Line---all trains from Shady Grove terminate at Dupont Circle, using the cross-over just outside the station...as for trains from Glenmont---single track from Judiciary Square to Metro Center....As for the Orange and Blue Lines---terminate both at Rosslyn and single track through Federal Triangle to Metro Center using the crossover between FT and Smithsonian....Close McPherson Square and Foggy Bottom--even though they both have cross-overs on the Farragut Side of each station, I'd err on the side of caution...
Along with all this, I'd increase the number of trains on the Yellow to make up for those heading to VA via Rosslyn....As for the bus's--run one fromMetro Center, to Dupont Circle and then directly to Rosslyn via Georgetown and the Key Bridge...Run another one as a shuttle from Metro Center to McPherson Square and a shuttle from Foggy Bottom to Rosslyn....my plan would have the main route be from Metro Center to Rosslyn via Dupont Circle and the others as short term shuttle busses...
Mark
OK, here's one:
It's 6 a.m. and the third train out of Alewife has barely left, you have a serious derailment within Harvard Sq station on the Southbound platform. You need a crane to move the trainset, and no cranes will be available until 12 noon.
You have on hand:
* 2 trainsets remaining at Alewife
* 2 trainsets trapped Southbound between Alewife and Harvard
* Northbounds coming in thick and fast
* Alewife will hold a maximum of 4 trainsets at any one time
* Crossovers south of Harvard, between Porter and Davis, and between Davis and Alewife
* Pilotman working through Northbound platform at Harvard is possible, but you can manage a maximum of 4 tph in either direction, or 8 tph, if you choose to use Harvard Northbound as a turnaround
* #71, #72, #73, #77 all terminating at Harvard, and only #77 can be rerouted.
* Commuter Rail at Porter is expecting to dump 2,000 passengers every morning there
* #79 terminating at Alewife
* #88, #90 operating normally through Davis Sq
What are you going to do? Huh? Huh? hehe.
No, that doesn't answer your question, but would it solve the insanity?
If they want to shut down Lechmere service I would be upset. Lots more people ride the Green Line than the Commuter Rail.
AEM7
I agree -- MOVE IT.
Mark's idea sounds good. However, knowing the area like I do, I'd get off at Metro Center and walk to Dupont on the Red, or get off at Dupont and walk to Foggy Bottom for the blue/orange. Forget the bus bridges, those things take forever to mobilize and the 2 out of the supposed 20 that are available show up and have to pile in loads of customers. You'd be better off taking one of the regular routes that run around there to get you to where you're going, but with the gridlock that ensues, they're no good either.
Glad I don't take the rail enough to ever have to worry about this scenerio.
I doubt that the (F) would be the Express train on that line. You ought to look to the (Q)/(B) set up to see what an express service on the Culver might be like:
The (F) as a 24/7 line would make all stops to Coney Island.
The (V) or (C) if I would get my way about it, would be the Express and would terminate at Kings Highway, just as the Brighton Express trains end at Brighton Beach, NOT at Coney Island.
The Switching Plant at Kings Highway does not lend itself to express service to CI, and if you knew the history of the Culver, you would see why this was so: the heavier stee subway cars were turned at Kings Hwy, while the lighter 5th Avenue El cars continued to the end of the lion at CI. Because they had LOTS of those and only FEW steel cars.
I would send the (V) 6th Avenue Local to Chambers WTC, giving 6th Avenue access to downtown, and the (C) 8th Ave Local to Kings Highway as the Culver Express. The only LOGICAL justification for another service on the Culver is to give access to a different trunk in Manhattan.
Under my plan the (E) becomes an 8th Avenue Express again, and goes to Brooklyn via Fulton. I would probably turn some (E)s at Euclid and call them LOCALS, and other (E)s Lefferts and call them possibly run them as Express trains on Fulton during the AM rush. During the PM rush all (E)s would run local on Fulton, just to prevent confusion.
I would send all of the (A) trains to JFK, and some of them through to Rockaway Park or to Far Rockaway. Some of these (Maybe from Rockaway Park) might be Local on Fulton during the AM rush. During the PM rush all (A) trains would run Express, again just to prevent confusion.
Some (A) trains signed for the AIRPORT could then run "super Express" and skip some of the Brooklyn express stops.
As always when I look at a subway lion, I look at all of the ramifications that might impact my scheme.
Elias
No you wouldn't. From 1968 to 1987, it was in fact the express that ran to Coney Island and the local that ended at Kings Highway. The appropriate crossover was removed during the reconstruction that "temporarily" suspended Culver express service in 1987.
The heavy subway trains ending at Kings Highway from 1931 to 1940 would run express in the reverse peak direction to facilitate fast return to Kings Highway for peak local service. There was no express service on the Culver line from 1940 to 1968.
The (F) as a 24/7 line would make all stops to Coney Island.
The (V) or (C) if I would get my way about it, would be the Express and would terminate at Kings Highway, just as the Brighton Express trains end at Brighton Beach, NOT at Coney Island.
Wrong. Fulton Street is a more appropriate comparison, with the express continuing past the local terminal. The Brighton setup is an anomoly, not the norm. If express service is ever to be restored, the F will almost certainly be that express, with the V as a local to Church Ave. Running the V past Church Ave. would be a waste.
Unless you only run it in one direction, as a one-trip train during rush hours. It would run out of Coney Island Yard express to Manhattan in the AM, and back to the yard in the PM.
Yes, an absolute waste, no reason to send the (V) out there at all.
BUT if you send the (C) out there, then there *is* a reason: to provide a alternate trunk route in Manhattan. And with this option in mind, it does not matter where the express train terminates.
The 24/7 train runs to Coney Island, and the 16/5 train runs to Kings Highway.
Elias
Can you provide any evidence to suggest that the F alone is insufficient to serve stations south of Church Ave and that extending another line south is justifiable?
The (F) *is* fully capable of handling the traffic between Church and Coney Island. My premise is *IF* another service were to use these tracks the (C) would be the best choice since it would give Culverites a choice between 6th Avenue and 8th Avenue destinations. Almost a moot point since the could change at West 4th Street in any event.
This debate swirlls about the issue of *how* an express *could* be run, and not so much as if one is needed.
According to me, *IF* there is congestion and delays on the Manhattan 8th Avenue Line, my suggestions would aleviate it, but then the (C) *would* have to find a place to go other than downtown, and Rutgers and the Culver *do* have the capacity to turn the (C)s.
Elias
Yes, it would, *and* it would give you access to downtown, which a W4 transfer could not do.
Is there a particular reason why a West 4th transfer could not provide access to downtown? Sure they would have to back track, but its not like its impossible.
Nope, I can't buy that either.
1) *IF* something runs express, then the (G) MUST go to Church Avenue. (It cannot turn on the express tracks if the express is using it, yes?)
2) If the (F) were to run express the people of Smith Street / Carroll Gardens will send up such a roar that it would be heard in ALBANY, or even Washington!
3) So, *something* must replace the (F) train for train, and it must go to Manhattan. The (V) or (C), yes, it is possible, but turning both the (G) and the (V) or (C) at Church becomes problematic for techicnal reasons which I have heard both espoused and refuted on this board.
4) If, as has been sugested, that Church cannot turn two services (and maybe it can), then one of these services must turn at Kings Highway, because two services cannot be turned at Coney Island.
5) (another) *IF* a service must turn at KH, then that service will be the EXPRESS service, with the 24/7 doing CI.
SO THEREFORE) We come back to *my* proposal:
(G) to Church Avenue days / Smith 9th at night and weekends.
(F) 6th Avenue Local to Coney Island via Culver Local 24/7
and
(C) 8th Avenue Local to Kings Highway via Culver Express 16/5
Elias
Exactly. But part of the NYCT's deserata is the smooth and efficient movement of trains, without trying to play chess with them, moving them this way and that unnecessairily. It is easier to move a few riders at KH then to move trains back and forth. It is also easier on the riding public if "Their Train does the same thing all of the time" rather than having to know if it will be the (F) or the (C) that will be making their stop at this time of day.
So we come back to my suggestions. The (F) is 24/7 and therefore is Local. If something else will run to KH it could be local or express, ore even an ANTI-Express, but whatever it is, it ain't going to CI.
Elias
But it would be like another Astoria el debacle, empty express trains, with crowded locals. When that happens, it defeats the purpose of the express, and you may as well just run them all local.
The (F) is 24/7 and therefore is Local. If something else will run to KH it could be local or express, ore even an ANTI-Express, but whatever it is, it ain't going to CI.
I still don't really agree. The 24/7 service does not have to be the local. Fulton local passengers don't seem to have trouble taking the C when the A is not running on Fulton Street. Passengers at Lorimer st and other Broadway El stations don't seem to have a problem with taking the M when the J is running express, Queens Blvd local passengers don't seem to have a problem when the F runs local late nights, etc. So I don't see how the Culver local people would seem to have more of a problem.
I meant "Fulton local passengers don't seem to have trouble taking the A when the C is not running on Fulton Street."
The F is Express 24/7. The E is local late nights.
And why would that have to be so . The TA runs many of the 24/7 lines as express trains , and someone gave a list of just a sample of them :
The J In Brooklyn
The E in Queens
The A on Fulton
The 4 on Lexington in the past
There are too many to even count . The F does not have to be the local just because it's the 24/7 line . Under most circumstances the express is determined by which line can pick up the most passengers before going express .
And yes , the TA does run trains to be smooth and efficient , but also to make them as full as possible . If they can't be full , there is no point in running an express as was seen on Astoria .
Clearly, they don't get it!
Sheesh.
As I've stated before, these people would have nothing to complain about, as the V would be there to replace the F, with less crowded trains providing a one seat ride to 53rd St. They might actually prefer the V.
You cut them by 1 tph and they will toss you into the Canal at Smith 9th.
Elias
Running the V at 10 THP means a net decrease of 2 TPH over the F and a difference of 60 seconds between trains. BFD.
They already have those because Coney Island cannot terminate enough of the F. I don't know if Avenue X can and therefore if they still do rush hour short turns at KH, but I do now that when the Culver line was being rebuilt beginning in 1987 (which disrupted express service), Avenue X was sometimes used as the terminal for short turns.
How does "American Pig" know so much? You would never expect it from a name like that!
Are you insulting pigs? Pigs are smarter than the average animal, that's why I don't eat them, since they comprehend death.
P.S. - Sorry to say, I eat mot only pork but mahi mahi too...does that make me smarter?? DON'T ANSWER!!!
Unlike cows, which is fortunate because otherwise I wouldn't be able to whine about the cows-at-the-slaughterhouse-chute half-moons at Penn Station.
What happened to Pork the Other White Meat?
Also, if Pigs are sooooo smart, why do they taste sooooo good?
Whether they comprehend death or not?
Because they taste like you.
Also, during rush-hours when there may be a delay on a train down the line on the West End (south of 9th Ave.) and Culver (south of Church Ave.), the following train (or trains) may be re-routed as an Express to get around the train with the problem.
Also, during rush-hours when there may be a delay on a train down the line on the West End (south of 9th Ave.) and Culver (south of Church Ave.), the following train (or trains) may be re-routed on the Express tracks to get around the train with the problem.
F- The Bergen interlockings make them useless from Jay St-4 Av but there isn't enough rolling stock to have it as a full length express anyway. HOWEVER at times in the PM rush when F trains run late, they do run via Culver express track from 18 Av-Kings Hwy while making a battery run skipping Ditmas Av.
N- Not likely since the NX back in the 60's was a miserable failure. Now if there was a express stop at Kings Highway then it may have a slim chance.
Probably not, since 8th Avenue is busier.
They had to pay a small fortune in late clears due to the M train being there the last 3 years.
Go out of Brooklyn and you'll find the same pattern of three track dual contracts elevated routes. In Queens, the Astoria, *Flushing, and Fulton (Liberty Ave.) structures. In the Bronx, the Pelham*, *White Plains Road, and Jerome Ave. structures. The ones with an asterisk have express service today. I realize that the White Plains Road express segment is actually below E 180th on a pre-dual contracts route.
BTW, congrats to the 167-Mt Edens aficianados for the fact that their station will undergo some rehabilitation soon. I would love to log on and read the same being done on the "N" route but if I did I would be too shocked to elicit a reaction one way or the other.
Why should they maintain tracks, signals and switches for a track they will likely never need in revenue service? Plus, the remaining express track is sufficient for layups, service disruptions and GOs.
No, this is not an elevated station.
This is a subway station located on a bridge over the canal.
It is not an elevated structure at all, it is a bridge.
Elias
: ) Elias
And ironically, the el that needs it the most from that Dual Contracts era, and would probably be the most used today if it had one, was the Jamaica Avenue el. It's a shame they didn't skip one of the others (like West End), and build Jamaica Ave with one instead.
Dual Contract Els:
Upper White Plains: Unused
Jerome: Unused - never used in regular service
Culver: Unused - although used on and off in the past.
Myrtle (north of Bway): never used in regular service, and now removed
Astoria: Unused - brief use in past
Flushing: Okay, maybe that one was needed, and continues to be needed and the only one more necessary than a potential Jamaica Ave express track
Livonia: the only other dual contract el designed for an express track, that did not get an express. And luckily so, as it would be on the worthless and unused list too.
Pelham : Used, and well used, but the only reason it is used is because the Lexington Local has such great headways, that many of the very low use Pelham local station certainly wouldn't need all that service. The Pelham el only has a well used express track because of the high use of the Lexington local in Manhattan. The Pelham el service patterns are only a product of it's destnations in Manhattan, not because express service is so necessary on the Pelham El. It wouldn't have been the end of the world if Pelham didn't get it because they could have always designed one of the stations to short turn the Lexington Local is for some reason the Pelham express wasn't built.
So in summary, the only line that needs an express track more than the Jamaica El is the Flushing el (which thankfully has it). Seeing that the Jamaica El was designed for an express track, it's a real head scratcher that they didn't install it like all the other Dual Contracts el, and we are paying for that decision ever since. I wonder why they decided not to build it with one.
Fulton El: Demolished. The dual contracts rebuilt portion of that el was built with an express track, and we all know how much use that one get's today.....although if the el had survived, it would have been a well used express track.
Broadway El: Well part of it is used, and well used, but the other half of it is not used, basically also because of the lack of an express track on Jamaica Ave.
The Z (<J>) Express:
Jamaica Center
Sutphin Blvd
Broadway Junction***
Myrtle Ave
Marcy Ave
***Maybe Woodhaven Blvd turned into an express station with a raised track, and express platforms over the local tracks
You know my feelings about my Eastern Division[they hate us MAN...LOL]....
DOn't get me started on that!
and short turning some KK trains at ENY/Atlantic ave. whats STOPPING THEM FROM DOING THAT NOW?
I do like the improvements at Atlantic (L), however, I do feel they should have kept the middle platform useable as a terminal. They could have sent the V from 6th Ave to ATlantic Ave, giving the V a more useful life on it's sourthern end in Manhattan, allowing the J/Z to run express on Broadway while skip-stopping to Jamaica (The V would be local), and given riders direct midtown service (or same platform service).
Without Atlantic useable as a terminal anymore, the only way a Chrystie train would be able to run to the WillyB would be to run it to Metro, Jamaica, or to Canarsie (and the Canarsie end of the line doesn't need two services at relatively low use stations on that end of the L line), and I don't think they could use BJ as a terminal on Broadway, at least not if the J/Z are to run express there.
You ain't kidding!
Yeah, my first sentence was a typo, I meant "QJ". The brochure even shows the KK as a local.
Merging the J (or M) with the V, or, sending the V to Euclid and the C to Chrystie might work, but the latter would require very careful scheduling to avoid fouling up the entire C, E, F, and V lines. I think what Chris said (merging the J or M with the V) would go alot smoother. The main problem would be the sharing of equipment between Jamaica and ENY - I don't think any line can be assigned to two different shops, and neither has enough equipment to supply the full route.
Because the original line had nothing to do with Jamaica Avenue. The original el as designed ran down Fulton St which was more populated because of the cemetery on Jamaica Ave, and then terminated at Cypress Hills, and the station was over Crescent St, not Jamaica Ave, so the curve was just an "L" shaped curve, and it din't matter that it went slow because Cypress Hills was the terminal anyway. It was only after that in the 1910's, in the Dual Contracts era that the Jamaica Ave portion was built, making the "S" curve. Obviously the designers at that time had something else planned for the Fulton St portion of the line because it was not rebuilt like the Broadway el. Whatever that plan was never came into being.
As for you rplan with Woodhaven since its a peak direction you'd need just one platform but a extreme option is to close Woodhaven and rebuild it from scratch to a two island platform 3 track station then it runs in the current gap where there is room for a 3rd track [and there's no way that it would happen].
Of course that would be ideal for an express, but it would be too disruptive. Either they'd have to do it with the raised center track, or just leave Woodhaven as a local station. The rebuilding would never be done (as you said) as it would be too service and cost prohibitive.
Then the (J) would continue on Jamaica to Eastern Parkway. Might build only one stop on the new line, and it would run express on Broadway.
Maybe send the (Z) up 8th avenue to 181st Street...
Sorta in the Existing yardlet there, making a direct connection to the GeoWash Bus Term.
Elias
There is another line that needs it MUCH more than Jamaica - the Canarsie! Although that isn't an El, so it doesn't really count. But then again, it was SUPPOSED to be an El all the way up to Morgan Ave. I wonder, if they had built it as an El, would it have received a third track?
What I wonder is, why was the line between Atlantic and E. 105th never upgraded to Dual Contracts standards?
Yes, you are so right, maybe not much more than Jamaica, but certainly does need it at least equally. Unfortunately, the L is built under narrow streets, so I don't know if it could have been three tracks wide. It would have been VERY well used between Myrtle and Bedford if there was a way to do it.
Yes, it was supposed to be an el east of Montrose Ave. Early form NIMBY's got them to put it underground. The express track on Myrtle was built in anticipation of different service patterns had the L been elevated through Wyckoff-Myrtle. It probably would have been built with a third track or at least with provision for it, as were all the Dual Contract els.
Again, the lines that now could really use an express track didn't get one (for the most part), and the ones that didn't necessarily need one got them...."Isn't it ironic".
I wish they would have used the money they spent on West End's express track, and used it for Jamaica Ave.
I don't know for sure what stops were made, but an educated guess would be: from Chambers St. via the south side tracks of the Manhattan Bridge, Pacific, 36th, 59th, Stillwell Ave., then express stops along the Brighton to Franklin Ave.
Thanks to M.B.T.A. for a truly fabulous commute.
AEM7
He was posting good stuff for a while, then went back to his old style.
So, bye-bye again!!!
:0)
Are we now going to have CHARILE THE TUNA adds in sunken RED BIRDS.
The last time i had TUNA i was working PELHAM with food poisining
and had to trow up out the cab window for three trips.
If you find bits of roll signs in your tuna you will know for shure.
Don't try this at home but I suppose one could go to the local auto parts store and buy a can of Bondo.
Matthew Mummert
Now, how do you make a redbird float?
SEPTA had to concede after refusing depositions.
http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/news/local/8228604.htm
I'd like to see similiar here. Dirty dealings one thing, but when it's so obvious and blatant, an example should come by finally.
I do hope that UTS makes it this time around, I would like to see something different and innovative built.
I didn't know the 63rd Street Connector opened in 1988, unless you made a mistake.
1: all
9: none (didn't exist)
2. Did the Z exist yet?
Not for most of the year. It started on December 12, 1988
3. Did the J terminate at 121 Street or Queens Blvd?
121st Street until December 11.
4. What served the 63rd Street tunnel during rush hours?
Construction workers. At least until October 29, 1989 (30th if you're talking about rush hours)
5. The yellow B, D, and Q were in service, correct?
Until December 10
6. Was the Brighton Line operating skip-stop service? If so, what were the alternate stops?
Until December 9:
Q: Parkside, Cortelyou, J, U
D: Beverley, H, M, Neck
Both trains made all the express stops. The Q ended at Brighton, the D at CI.
7. Was the Brown R still in service?
No.
1. The 9 began on August 21, 1989
7. The <:R> ended on May 21, 1987
1. The 9 began on August 21, 1989
7. The <R> ended on May 21, 1987
Get a map and find out
1. What stops did the 1 and 9 make? (Did the 9 even exist yet?)
1988 was the first year the 9 ran.
2. Did the Z exist yet?
I belive so
3. Did the J terminate at 121 Street or Queens Blvd?
Neither. It went to Archer Avenue that year
4. What served the 63rd Street tunnel during rush hours?
Nothing. It was complete a year later
5. The yellow B, D, and Q were in service, correct?
I think so. Yes
6. Was the Brighton Line operating skip-stop service? If so, what were the alternate stops?
7. Was the Brown R still in service?
Those I dont know
Actually the 9 didn't exist until August(??) of 1989.
You know a lot of people respond for no reason other than to see their name in lights, but only me, Pigs and Sir Ronald get blamed for there being post limits
I can't believe how anal some people can be when it comes to posting on a message board.
As of May 24, 1987, the 1 ran from 242 St to South Ferry, the 9 and Z did not exist yet, the J terminated at 121 St and a q41 bus ran from there to 168 St, the 63rd St Tunnel wasn't being served by anything, yellow lines included the B,N,D,R, and Q, the Brighton line had skip-stop service, the Q served Parkside av, Cortelyou Rd,Avenue J, and Avenue U, and the D served Beverly Rd, Avenue H, Avenue M, and Neck Rd.
That wasn't the Q41. That was the Q49. The Q41 is a Green Bus Line route.
1. The "9" did exist, but I am not sure of the stops. However, I do remember it stopping at 225th St whereas the "1" didn't.
2. The "Z" did not exist.
3. The "J" terminated at 121st St.
4. There was no 63rd St service. That didn't start until 1989. During the time we are talking, the "S" (all day) and "F" (midnight hours only) terminated at 57th St-6th Ave.
5. Yes.
6. Yes, don't know the stops.
7. If not, then they must have discontinued it late 1987. However, I don't the equipment ever displayed the brown "R". It was always either the yellow "R" or green "RR".
1. What were the hours of operation of the yellow D and Q?
2. What route did the A and H take in the Rockaways, at what time?
Regards,
Jimmy
Jimmy
6AM. The operating hours were the same as the B today. This is unchanged from 1967 at least.
The C ran rush hours between Bedford Park Blvd or 145 St and Euclid Ave or Rockaway Park.
Only from Rockaway Park to Bedford Park. Euclid and 145th were not used as terminals (especially 145).
Seems that I was wrong about that one.
2. As you know, there were two "A"s, Far Rockaway and Lefferts Blvd. The Lefferts Blvd "A" operated 24/7. The Far Rockaway "A" operated from 5:30 am to 11:30 am 7 days a week. All other times, the Far Rockaway operated what was know as the Round Robin Shuttle. This service began at Euclid Ave, then made all stops to Rockaway Park, rested there for a few minutes, then make all stops to Far Rockaway, rested there for a few minutes, then returned to Euclid Ave. It was the most hideous service ever. As far as the "H" was concerned, it really wasn't used until after the Archer Ave opening when the "C" became an all day, weekday route. Before then the "C" only operated rush hours only to either Euclid Ave or Rockaway Park from Bedford Park Blvd. All other times except midnight hours when the Round Robin operated, the "C" shuttle operated from Broad Channel to Rockaway Park.
I also remember having a 1987 "Revised" map which showed the A and H going to both Far Rockaway and Rockaway Park, with something connecting the two (I presume the H), and the C going from Bedford Park Blvd to Rockaway Park. Never heard of anything turning around at Euclid except the late-night H.
Can somebody clear up this mystery for me?
As far as Rockaway service is concerned, I am going to take you back to 1976. Before Aug. '76, you had 3"A"s
207th St to Far Rockaway - every day 5:30 am to 11:30 pm ;
207th St to Lefferts Blvd - 24/7;
Euclid Ave to Far Rockaway via Rockaway Park (round robin shuttle I described in the last post).
There were 4 "E"'s
179th St to Euclid Ave -rush hours only;
179th St to Rockaway Park - rush hours only;
179th St to World Trade Center - all other times;
Broad Channel to Rockaway Park (Shuttle) - all times except rush hours and late nights.
And no, you are not reading this wrong and I am not writing the wrong information during non rush hours and weekends, there were indeed 2 "E" trains the 179th St-WTC and the Broad Channel Shuttle.
AFTER August of 1976, the TA swapped southern terminals between the "CC" and the "E".
So yes indeed, there were 3 "CC"s:
Bedford Park Blvd to Euclid Ave - rush hours only;
Bedford Park Blvd to Rockaway Park - rush hours only;
Broad Channel to Rockaway Park - all times except nights and rush hours.
Now as replacement is concerned, the "E" replaced the "HH" very early in the '70s. The "CC" replaced the "E" in 1976. "CC" became the "C" in 1983, the "H" replaced the "C" Shuttle and "A" Round Robin Shuttle sometime between 1989 and 1990.
I understand this is confusing because most of the maps did not reflect the actual service patterns in the Rockaways. But if you look at the 1979, that is the first map that will tell you about the "CC" shuttle and "A" round robin shuttle.
The "C" has been turning around at Euclid since it started going to Brooklyn in 1976, replacing the "E".
The yellow D operated 24/7. The Q began at Brighton Beach at 6 AM, that same train became the first southbound train, and the last train out of BB (which would become that last southbound train) would leave at about 8.5 PM.
2. What route did the A and H take in the Rockaways, at what time?
During rush hours, the C ran to Rockaway Park and the A to Lefferts Boulevard and Far Rockaway. There was no A service to B116.
Other times, except nights, the A still ran to Lefferts or Mott, but the H ran as a shuttle from Broad Channel, the C didn't run at all.
At night, the A would go only to Lefferts, while the H would run as a round robin Euclid Avenue-Rockway Park-Far Rockaway-Euclid Avenue.
The only change on December 12, 1988 was that the C would now run to Rock Park middays and the H would no longer run middays.
http://www.railfanwindow.com/gallery/MTAdec111988
and
http://www.railfanwindow.com/gallery/MTAdec111988wallsize
Yes, the 4, middays. The 5 terminated middays at Atlantic until January 15, 1988.
2. Did Culver Express F train service exist? Did it run express from Jay with the G going to Church, or did it just run from 18th Ave?
No, N/A
3. What did the N do on weekends?
Same thing it does now. After 12/11, it would use the tunnel all times.
- The R started 1987 on the Astoria line, but swapped with the N in Queens on 5/24/87
At the same time this swap was made, other changes were made:
- The yellow B, which went to Queensboro Plaza on weekends, was cut back to 57th St.
- The N ran express to 57th/7th prior to the swap. After it ran exactly as it does today.
- The 6th Ave shuttle was a 24/7 operation from 57th/6th to Grand St. After the swap, it was cut back to W4th at night.
- The F ran to Queens at night prior to the swap. Afterwards, it ran to 57th/7th at night.
- The G before the swap ran to Queens Plaza only at night. After the swap, the G was cut back to Queens Plaza on weekends as well.
So, without further Apu, as of January 1, 1987:
A: 207th Street to alternately Lefferts Boulevard or Far Rockaway via 8th Avenue/Fulton. Express in Manhattan all times except nights, express in Brooklyn rush hours. Nights to Lefferts Boulevard only.
B (orange): 168th Street to Herald Square via CPW local, rush hours.
B (yellow): Coney Island to Ditmars Blvd via west End, 4th Avenue/Broadway Express and Astoria local. Stops at DeKalb during non-rush hours. Other times except nights to Queensborough Plaza. Nights shuttle 36th-Coney Island.
C: Bedford Park Blvd to Rockaway Park via Concourse-8th Avenue-Fulton-Local, rush hours only
D (orange): 205th Street-Herald Square via CPW Express (all times) and Concourse peak express (rush hours, local other times).
D (yellow): Coney Island to 57/7 via Brighton skip-stop (weekdays ~6AM-~9PM) and Broadway Express (all times).
E: World Trade Center to 179th Street via 8th Avenue local, Queens Blvd Express (QP-71) and Hillside local (71-179), all times.
F: 179th to Coney Island via Queens Boulevard AND Hillside Express, 6th Avenue local and Culver peak express rush hours (18th Avenue-Kings Highway), half of trains end at Kings Highway and run Culver local rush hours. Middays, stops at 169th. Evenings and weekends, runs local along Hillside (71-179). Nights runs local through all of Queens.
G: 71-Continental to Smith-9th via Crosstown local, all times except nights. Nights Queens Plaza to Smith-9th.
H: No service rush hours (provided by C), middays and evenings Euclid Avenue-Rockaway Park. Weekends Broad Channel-Rockaway Park, Nights round robin Euclid-Rockaway Park-Far Rockaway and back to Euclid.
J: 121st Street-Broad Street all times (incl weekends). Rush hours peak express Marcy-Myrtle.
K: 168th Street-World Trade Center all times except rush hours and nights.
L: Do I even have to mention this? 8th Avenue-Rockaway Parkway via local, all times.
M: Metropolitan Avenue-Bay Parkway via Nassau Street local and 4th Avenue Express. Middays to 9th Avenue, evenings, weekends and late nights shuttle Myrtle-Metro.
N: Coney Island to 71st-Continental via Sea Beach, 4th Avenue/Broadway local and Queens Blvd local, rush hours and middays. Evenings and weekends 4th Avenue/Broadway Express (+Manhattan Bridge) to 57/7. Nights shuttle 59th-CI. Never skips DeKalb (except nights, when it doesn't run there).
Q: Brighton Beach to 57/7 via Brighton skip-stop and Broadway Express, weekdays ~6AM-~9PM.
R (yellow): 95th Street to Ditmars Blvd via 4th Avenue/Broadway/Astoria local, all times
R (brown): 95th Street to Chambers Street via 4th Avenue/Nassau local, rush hours peak direction.
S (Franklin): All times, still stopped at Dean Street.
S (42nd): All times
S (6th Avenue): 57/6-Grand Street, all times
1: 242nd-South Ferry via 7th Avenue local, all times. Some rush trains 137-SF.
2: 242nd-Flatbush Avenue via 7th Avenue Express, White Plains/Eastern Parkway local, all times.
3: 148th Street-New Lots Avenue via 7th Avenue Express and Eastern Parkway local, all times except nights and Sunday mornings. Nights and sunday mornings, shuttle 148-135.
4: Woodlawn to Utica Avenue via Lexington Avenue Express, Jerome local (skips 138th rush in peak direction) and Eastern Parkway Express, rush hours, evenings and weekends. Middays, Woodlawn-Atlantic. Nights local in Manhattan. Nights and Sunday morning local in Brooklyn to New Lots.
5: Dyre Avenue (all times) or 241st Street (rush hours, peak direction) to Flatbush Avenue via West Farms peak express, Lexington Avenue Express and Eastern Parkway Express. Middays Dyre-Atlantic, Evenings and Weekends Dyre-Bowling Green. Nights shuttle Dyre-180.
6: Brooklyn Bridge to Pelham Bay Park or Parkchester (weekdays) via Lexington Local. PBP trains peak Express all day Parkchester-3rd Avenue. Nights 125th-PBP.
7: Times Square-Main Street local all times, peak express all day weekdays.
Changes during 1987:
04/27: End of Culver and Flushing Express services for reconstruction
05/24: N/R terminal swap. N now runs to Astoria all times, and now runs local north of Canal all times (still via bridge eves and weekends). R to 71-Continental all times. Night F rerouted to 57/6, 6th Avenue shuttle cut back to Grand Street-West 4th nights. Evening and weekend B (yellow) service cut back to 57/7.
11/23: Brown R eliminated.
I vaguely remember the disruptions during the mid-90's when Bliss, Lowery and Rawson were being rebuilt.
The Queens Blvd. viaduct was being rehabbed.
Renovation.
What a surprising service pattern that is.....
I added a Downtown Brooklyn inset because it was getting way too crowded with the addition of the JFK Express.
21st Street-Queensbridge
Roosevelt Island
Lexington Avenue
57
47-50
42
34
W4
Chambers
B'way-Nassau
Jay
Howard Beach
Regards,
Jimmy
An R at Chambers Street (obviously a yellow bullet, but still).
Any yellow B or D.
A JFK express somewhere in Manhattan (I think there are about three pictures of them at Howard Beach).
A K train. I've never seen a K train in my life.
Likewise for the H. There are plenty or Arnine H or HH photos, but I've yet to see an R32.
ANY subway map from 1980-1990, preferably with the JFK on it.
I know they're out there. Post them!
My opinion, I think it should be covered because it is, although horrible, a part of history. A lot of people on this board either were not born or were not residents or visitors of this city during that time period so they really don't know how bad it was.
You have a lot of people complaining about trash on the floors, or dirt on the cars (I admit, I am one of them-however, my main gripe is the scratchitti and white shoe polish), but some of those people have no clue how horrible the subways were during most of the '80s.
The "1" passengers suffered with R21s and R22s that had not been washed & painted in so long that most of the 1970s paint scheme wore off and you could see the dark green color (which turned black) the cars were sporting when first delivered.
For a good portion of the '80s, the passengers of the "CC" and "GG" were served by the oldest and most deteriorated of all, the R10s-which were 100% of the fleet for those lines ("GG"s saw exclusively R32s nights and weekends, which werent much better in the summer because they too were not air-conditioned). MOST of those on the "CC" were so slow that you would swear you saw passenger running along the platforms at a faster rate of speed than the train you were on. As a matter of fact, with the exception of 3 sets of rebuilt R32s and 1 or 2 sets of R38s that would sneak on the "C" from time to time, the "C" did not see air-conditioning until 1992. Remember, when your line got rid of the R27/30s, where did they go? The "C".
So as you can see, other passengers had it worst than those of the Eastern Division.
The point you made was that the Eastern Division had it worst. Yes, you had it bad, but you didn't have it worst nor did the Eastern Division have the oldest cars. That award went to the 8th Ave.
I can only post what I get contributed; nowadays many active Subtalkers are running their own web sites, so you won't find the bulk of their photos here, you'll have to go looking around the Internet. But that's for current stuff, obviously.
I rode the system extensively during this period but never thought to take a camera and take pictures. It was just never a thought that occurred to me. Sites and discussions boards like this one were not as widespread where I'd even get the idea of having a camera during this time.
--Mark
Now, I just do my own thing.
I only wish I could go back in time for just a few hours to 1985, with a bunch of memory cards, and a digital camera.
Amen to that! I would give anything to photograph in that time period. I am a fan of decrepidness and seeing things at their worst.
I was born in '84, and started riding the subway by the late 80's-early 90's.
I think the earliest I can remember about the subways was the R-44/46's still having blue stripes, and R-27/30's on the C/H(?) lines. That's as far back as my memory goes. The grafitti was for the most part gone by then.
I guess I can say that about a lot of models.
IIRC, the last graffiti-covered train went out of service in May 1989.
AFAIK, you're the only poster who has 80's shots.
I can understand why no one wants to remember it. There are probably some pictures in the newspapers from the 80's. Some magazines (such as Esquire) did pictorials and articles on subway graffitti and deferred maintenance.
--Mark
The "4" north of 161st St.
The "SS" Franklin Ave Shuttle
The "5" from E. 180th St to Dyre Ave.
The "M" east of Bway-Myrtle
The "N" Sea Beach branch
During Midday, I used to see a couple laid up north of Chambers St. After the evening run, I believe that the "RR" Nassau Specials had their signs changed and ran up to Astoria on the regular "RR" route.
Tony
They're temporarily removing them from service, and 2 permanently.
Train To The Plane
see info on site
Go watch 'Money Train.' Yuck.
Now if you can have that kind of motion picture continuity "wardrobe malfunction" *IMAGINE* how they can screw up DETAILS! :)
I've had to HEAVILY restrict the temptation to phone into RUSH "nickel-bag" LIMBAUGH to swear and cuss for SIX seconds just to make his FCC fines exceed his drug connection's bills ... and get his arse shut down by the FCC ... I dunno ... must be ME that's insane - I thought we killed all those people in the Middle East to get *RID* of the TALIBAN ... oh silly me, I just don't get it. :-\
Dunno if you ever heard of the old 1950's tourist trap in Florida called "Monkey Jungle" where the PEOPLE are caged and the chimps run free ... but I've been feeling awfully similar the last few years as the politicos cage *US* in (gotta stop those terrorists that are pythed off at US politicians) while letting the BIGTIME crims run free. Ken Lay's still walking the streets ... but WAY off topic for this place, so I'll stop.
But folks whine because the cops come after their camera ... *OH* if they only had a CLUE as to how many OTHER, more IMPORTANT rights are being taken away in EVERY angle by the "AMERICAN TALIBAN" now in power. :(
Chit ... you've *STILL* got a better chance of being hit by a bus than the WORST the terrorists can do ... even those with a MICROPHONE. Depends! Get your pizza-oven warmed DEPENDS ... more absorbent than SpongeBob. :(
This is why we all to vote, alas, we have those 'other' people who fear the greatness of the voting system to be thought they will be ousted. Can you say, next Chevy truck out of here?
Once again, apologies to all - but *MY* life absolutely DEPENDS on OTHER COUNTRIES (Americans STEAL software, they don't BUY it, and we're the LAST remaining company in the security trade that EMPLOYS AMERICANS) and Shrub's honked off the entire planet (hell, even POLAND is pulling out of Iraq now) and resulted in a universal boycott against *US* ... wonder why your jobs are off to India and China? If it carries a "MADE *****NOT***** in the US, they can SELL IT ... if they hire YOU, then THEY can't sell it either. :(
But yeah, let's all COWER in fear of the terrorists and chit our "protective underwear" ... THAT is all this administration has to sell us now - FEAR. And sadly, it's WORKING. And we call idiots who surf on the rooftops of R-62's "Darwin winners." What does that make *US* if we approve of, and RE-ELECT these $kumbags?
Don't mind me, New York State was SUPPOSED to approve a contract to buy our BOClean thing at the Governor's office of Technology ... INSTEAD, YOUR taxpayer dollars will be spent in CHINA and PAKISTAN instead. I wouldn't care if we weren't in imminent peril of being foreclosed because we just ain't making enough money and the workload keeps going through the roof and we can't afford to hire extra hands. But hey ... the economy is *MUCH* improved, no? That's what we're being told. :(
I'm guessing you're planning to get into this campaign:
:P
But no, I'm gonna do the right thing and buy a gift for my woman ...
Great movie, though.
I think it's worse when we have SEPTA Silverliners dress up as Chicago el. I don't mind substitutions when a non-expert couldn't tell the difference, but people know the difference between a SEPTA Silverliner and a Chicago el car.
AEM7
Most movie goers don't know and don't care.
Only the local "experts" know if something rail is right or not.
They have been doing this stuff for years.
On the 1950's TV series Payton Place, one of the episodes had a main character returning to the New England town by train - pulled by a Southern Pacific cab-forward articulated.
On a TV movie years ago with William Shatner in the lead (post Star Trek), he uncouples a bomb laden car from the rest of the passenger train - and the train doesn't go into emergency.
It never stops. It never will.
There are exceptions. One of the best railroad movies is John Frankenheimer's The Train, starring Burt Lancaster as a French railway man who belongs to the Resistance. It takes place in 1944 France as the Resistance stops the Germans from shipping art treasures by a train by a clever and well planed effort. This is a 100% correct film with no mistakes. Everything railroad in the film is correct for a railway operating in wartime.
A true classic. Not only are the railroad aspects technically/historically correct, but it's a gripping story and very well-acted.
It has a place in my library and should be in every serious rail buff's.
My guess is the reason they substituted MetNorth for LIRR had something to do with logistics vis-a-vie time and scheduling conflicts between the railroad and the production.
I think ultimately the solution is not in the transportation systems; it's in the land use. PRT-type landscape is autoland, and you shouldn't try to retro fit a transit like solution to it. Just make sure your new developments are zoned for light rail type densities.
AEM7
"It combines small vehicles, ideal for low-density travel, with complicated, electronically controlled guideways which are feasible only for heavily traveled routes. Thus in suburban areas where a vehicle size for three to six persons would be optimal, construction of guideways is economically infeasible; on major arterials where guideways are justified, the small vehicles cannot provide the required capacity. Consequently, the combination of the two features – small vehicle and complicated guideway – is paradoxical and makes the PRT mode infeasible under all conditions."
Great, now we have a compliment for the nazi subdivisons. After I get a lien placed on my house for "improperly" displaying an American flag, or having an unsanctioned flower or vegetable garden, I can float around in a bubble. Let me guess, there's going to be a DVD player like an SUV too, so I don't actually have to pay attention to the outside world.
The day this happens, the day I move to Moscow for some personal freedoms.
As a side note, the Pan-Am is now the Met Life Building.
Regards,
Jimmy
MNRR electric service turns short at 125th St. Diesels continue from Spuyten Duyvil or New Rochelle to Penn Station. Some additional shuttles Spuyten Duyvil to New Rochelle via Penn Station.
Amtrak as normal.
LIRR - as many trains as possible diverted to Flatbush, LIC, and Hunterspoint to free up capacity in Penn Station for MNRR. Extra service on ferries LIC - E34th St and LIC - Pier 11.
NJT - all trains via Newark Penn diverted to Hoboken to free up capacity in Penn Station for MNRR.
PATH as normal.
IRT
(1) 242-96, skip-stop suspended
(2) 241-96
(2) 34-Flatbush
(3) 34-New Lots
(4) Woodlawn-125
(4) Brooklyn Bridge - Utica
(5) Dyre-E180
(5) Brooklyn Bridge - Flatbush
(6) PBP-59 (some short turns at 86, express service suspended)
(7)<7> Hunterspoint-Flushing
(S) suspended
BMT/IND
(A) uptown use B
(A) 34 - Fulton Lcl - Far Rockaway
(A) Chambers - Fulton Lcl - Lefferts
<A> suspended
(B) 207 - CPW Lcl - 6 Exp - Brighton Lcl, does not stop at 42nd St
(C) uptown use B, Brooklyn use A
(D) 205 - Concourse Lcl - CPW Exp - 6 Exp - 4 Exp - West End, does not stop at 42nd St
(E) 179 - Queens Lcl - 53 - 6 Lcl - WTC, does not stop at 42nd St
(F) Jamaica Cen - Queens Exp - 63 - 6 Lcl - Culver, does not stop at 42nd St
(G) Continental - Smith/9
(S) Broad Channel - Rockaway Park
(J)(Z) Jamaica skip-stop - 4 Lcl - 95
(L) 8 Av - Canarsie
(M) Metro - 4 Lcl - Sea Beach
(N) suspended, Queens use W, Brooklyn use M
(Q) suspended, Brooklyn use B
(R) suspended, Queens use E/G, Brooklyn use J/Z
(S) Franklin Av - Prospect Park
(V) suspended, use E or G in Queens
(W) Astoria - 57
Buses
ALTERATIONS TO MANHATTAN BUSES
M1 split between 34th St (loops 25, Madison, 34, Park Av S) and 50th St
M2, M3, M4, Q32 cut back to 50th St
M5 split between 34th St and 49th St
M6 suspended
M7 cut back to 50th St
M10 cut back to 49th St
M20 cut back to 34th St
M16 suspended - buses put in service on M34 which is extended to cover the eastern end of the M16
M27 suspended - buses put in service on M50
M42 suspended (obviously)
M98, M101, M102 cut back to 50th St
M103 split between 34th St and 50th St
M104 cut back to 49th St
ADDITIONAL ROUTES
M24 50th St, 2nd Av, 34th St, 10th Av (clockwise circular)
M25 49th St, 9th Av, 34th St, 1st Av (counter-clockwuise circular)
Limited stop buses to cover gaps on subway lines.
PABT
Closed, buses terminate at previous stop.
Chuck
Warning: The stories you will hear about are true. The names have been changed to protect the very stupid!
1) Louie Smith proved that the laws of gravity works even on the #6 train. Sunday night he fell from the roof of a train at the Pelham Bay Parkway station. His headfirst descent to the concrete was described as truely worthy of Darwin Committee consideration.
2) Jane Doe is being given strong consideration for her shot at immortality as a Darwin Award Winner. At the 36th St and 4th Ave station, she came running down the stairs at such speed and with the intensity of a true champion. Determined to catch her train she put her head down and dove for that train that was just closing its doors. Her quest for rapid transit was thwarted, however, when, head down, she ran into a concrete pillar, severely injuring herself.
3 & 4) Ralph Wiggins and Boris Rodriguez attempted the ultimate Darwin Stunt one day apart at different locations. Ralph dove off the platform at parsons Archer yesterday and then crawled out from under an E-train. Today, Boris made his attempt at rail immortality at West 4th St when he did a half-gainer in front of a B train. He too failed to earn his wings.
BTW: The Acadamy Awards are called Oscars. There are also Emmies and Tony awards. Perhaps someone here can come up with an appropriate name for the Darwin Awards.
How about the "dummy awards" ?
Bill "Newkirk"
#3 West End Jeff
They obviously should be called the Charlies, as it was his name.
However, there are "honourable mentions", specficially "Lawn Chair Larry".
This nothwithstanding I would support the examples given here being given strong consideration for inclusion in the final list!
hainault
Lawn Chair Larry later died from his feat, sort of, 11 years later (suicide by gunshot).
Subtalk related anecdote: Larry's story inspired the namesake of a subtalker to try a similar stunt...(see story)
Call them 'The Dummies'
"And the Dummy goes to [name of idiot] for his spectacular performance of a 12-9 in front of a (J)
train at Sutphin Blvd!"
What's a good name for a runner-up try?
Your pal,
Fred
Subway tunnels are inherently dangerous. They are slippery, dark, loaded with trip hazards, high voltage, and filled with heavy moving vehicles that can't manuver or stop very quickly. Employees are trained in track safety, provided with safety equipment and given proven safety procedures. Unfortunately, once you are on the tracks, your attention mustbe divided. You must be intent on your job but your attention is divided by the concearns for your personal & work-unit safety.
One thing you learn very quickly when working in a multi-track subway tunnel is that no matter how good your hearing is, you can only hear one train at a time. And despite all of the precautions and all of the training, there are lapses. Unfortunately, those lapses can and do sometimes lead to tragedy.
While there is usually some amount of human error in most every transit employee's accidental death, they do occur while in the performance of their duties. They are not illegal acts or acts of gross stupidity. Industrial accidents, regardless of the industry are a very unfortunate but for the most part, preventable part of life. Darwin award qualifying acts that lead to death or injury are not preventable. They are inevitable.
How about Charlies?
Together with Darwin's given name, I feel that his should make "Charlie" the clear winner! No way would Charles Darwin have answered to the name Chuck. Still less Chuckie.
Those two facts may not be so coincidental...
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Well who isn't these days.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df03152004.shtml#GAO
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Whew! That one really came down to the wire. Ron in KC should be happy that his state is committed to rail transit.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df03152004.shtml#Missouri
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At some point the plans will call for LESS than the CURRENT service :-)
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df03152004.shtml#Turboliner
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Hey AEM7, don't you live in Dorchester?
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df03152004.shtml#T
Why does DF refer to the line's stop at Readville as 'Dana and Hill (Readville),' btw? I know it's a separate platform from the main line, but where does the name come from?
If stops are close enough together, though, would it not make sense to then electrify the line? Conventional diesel push-pulls tend to not be schedule-efficient the closer stations are together because of their less brisk acceleration.
They need to do something for the Reedville line, but I'm not sure any of the current proposals make sense. It will make sense if they ever get around to building the North South Rail Link...
AEM7
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LOL, Bullhorn. Don't get it? Read and find out.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df03152004.shtml#NJT
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Good idea? Or another "Train to the Plane"
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df03152004.shtml#Chicago
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HA ha, Busted.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df03152004.shtml#Pot
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Mostly to shortlines, which is cool.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df03152004.shtml#Pennsylvania
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Yet "Team Bush" would like nothing more than to eliminate the whole lot.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df03152004.shtml#Feds
So halfway through the run-around I take the 8 from downtown to Ybor City. Okey ridership. I actually got off the bus outside Ybor City, next to the Central Park projects. These projects are crime ridden and a tax drain, and the only property outskirting downtown that isn't thriving or million dollar condos, etc, dead zone. City commision decided that $80million to fix this problem by making the area safer, better development, and property tax bringable was to much, so instead continued on a $400million dollar road project that elevates OVER and next to this area to bring in people from Brandon(hate this place) into downtown. Good priorites.
Back to the subject. Walked along the CSX line(amazing how close this is to Union Station and saw this:
Noticed work on the new hotel abbuting the streetcar line is doing well. Took the trolley back, these things get packed.
Unfortunatly there was timing problems, so we had a long wait at two places. Never seen the trolleys actually bunch up before. Must've added a little over 10 minutes to the trip. It's ashame when this happens. But thanks to bunching, I got this picture
More TECO-Line photos can be found here
I've noticed I dont' have a few uploaded still, so stay tuned! :)
And like it says in the original post, check out the bustalk post :)
By the time the AirTrain was proposed, the Newark Airport monorail was very delayed and very over budget, so something more conventional was preferred. Perhaps they realized that once the costs of implementing "new technology" are considered, that off-the-shelf stuff was far better (if not as flashy).
I might be wrong, but I heard monorail. Maybe it was the same kind of monorail that the AirTrain now is (as some articles referred to it as a monorail).
Grandpa Simpson had the next line, I think.
and the guy says:
No my good sir I'm on the level.
LOL Gotta love that song. I also remember the Springfield monorail was really like some old world's fair ride. Because the sticker peeled off because the train was going too fast and couldn't stop.
Next we have Wiggum:
"My ring came off my pudding can.'
Lyle Lanley:
'Use my penknife, my good man.'
Then they all start singing and whatnot up to Homer's 'Mono-Do'h!' line. Hilarious.
BTW, the World's Fair reference is to the 1964-5 one in Flushing Meadows. It was inaccurate since the trains used in the actual fair were suspended above and not riding on a regular track. There was also a reference to the 1930's WF as well when Mr. Burns gave a pamplet to Homer on a much later episode.
This aspect makes one question the seriousness of the PA's proposal. The Queensboro could not handle the weight. Anybody with a cursory knowledge of the Queensboro knew it.
The Queensboro's lower inner roadway had 5 traffic lanes until 1982. The middle lane was removed because the bridge would not be able to hold the live load of the 5th lane. The upper level pedestrian walk was removed 2 years earlier to reduce the dead load. Mounting brackets for lighting was also removed to reduce dead load. As it is the bridge can hold 4 lanes of 40 ton loading (lower inner roadway); 4 lanes of 20 ton loading (upper roadway, buses no trucks) and 1 lane of 5 ton loading (on of the lower outer roadways). Even Con Ed's transmission line cables were removed to reduce dead load.
In the more distant past, there were operating restrictions on both the elevaated trains and trolley cars to reduce live load. In the still more distant past, two rail tracks and two pedestrian lanes were never completed. All because of load problems.
The Queensboro was never planned to be a suspension bridge.
You could definitely make a more attractive one, too.
Mark
The lower, outer, cantilevered lanes were weak. However replacing their structural members (buttressing) would not increase the bridge's live load. In fact, the cantilevered beams have been replaced as the last part of the bridge's 15 year rehabilitation project.
The major problem is that bridge can't carry its design load. It uses a unique design. Only one other bridge used a similar design, the Quebec River Bridge, collapsed two years before the Queensboro was finished. A lot of inquiries were initiated as to what the implications were vis-a-vis the yet uncompleted Queensboro. Among the design shortcomings that were discovered were that no provision was made for either snow loading nor wind resistance. Consequently, dead and live load was removed, so that the bridge would not fail.
Over the years the bridge has been subject to corrosion. This has reduced the cross sectional area of many structural members. This means that these members can no longer carry the loads they once did.
The Queensboro has not received the publicity accorded the Manhattan Bridge. However, it's the East River's most precarious crossing.
Is that still true even after the near-constant work on the bridge over the last 25 years?
Yes. Other than making than replacing the cantilevered lanes, no structural work has been done to the bridge. They have replaced the roadways, which were in danger of collapsing. They have reduced the load on the bridge to make a structural failure less likely. There isn't much that can be done.
They could paint the bridge. And they could ban trucks, sending them to the Triboro or Brooklyn Battery Tunnel.
The bridge is in need of a paint job again. However, no paint increases tensile strength.
they could ban trucks,
They're already banned from the upper level. Totally banning trucks will come in a few decades.
Maybe, but I can't believe that all that rust isn't having an effect on the steel. And the bridge looks awful. As noted in another thread, I walked over it today.
(they could ban trucks) (They're already banned from the upper level. Totally banning trucks will come in a few decades.)
This comes back to the something for nothing toll issue. Post-1930 bridges and tunnels are tolled, pre-1930 bridges and tunnels are not. Therefore, people think if the existing bridges are fixed up, then they are free -- nonwithstanding the fact that someone is paying for the $billions used to repair them.
Toll the bridge and, if necessary, replace it, perhaps with another tunnel.
I was on both the Queensboro and Triborough today. The Triborough is in more need of a paint job. Just about all the bridge failures during the last three decades have been on toll facilities.
Just look at sections of any El: they all have some part all rusty. It's nothing a shaving and a good repainting won't help. Speaking of which, I'm happy with the job the TA did on the Flushing El after QBP. The graffiti is finally a memory.
Why would banning trucks from only one level make a difference?
The bridge's problem is the total weight it carries. This includes structure (dead load) and vehicles (live load).
The structure of the upper roadways is rated for 20 ton use not the 40 ton use required for trucks. This means the roadway itself is lighter than a roadway designed to carry trucks without deforming.
Second, there's the question of the live load itself. One designs the bridge for the maximum load - namely bumper to bumper for the bridge's entire length. Here again, it's only half the load that would be necessary were it bumper to bumper trucks.
2. As for the Verranzano and GWB, are the weight limitations for each level different? Sometimes they ban trucks on a certain level. Also I know that the GWB's Level was actually added after the bridge was built, although there were provisions for it anyway.
Why not?
The projected cost was over $6 billion. That's what killed it. The City-owned ROW presented a political nuisance, but that's all it was, a nuisance, not an obstacle.
Sounds like they had some very high hopes for the air train?
I've got to admit, the thought of taking the LIRR from Penn Station to Jamaica then to transfer to the Air Train [which they say is a "5-minute walk] at the premium cost of $9.25 peak? $11.25 if you count the fare of my getting to Penn Station? -- all while hauling luggage isn't exactly appealing.
As the project never got beyond the concept stage, it was never definitely decided what route it would take. The most recent discussions were of extending either the N or the 7 train, with the N having a slight edge.
The Giuliani administration was very keen to get this done. The MTA felt that ESA and SAS had better bang-for-the-buck. After Bloomberg came in, it was effectively dead.
Also, one little modification to your routing....I think it should go off the Van Wyck a little to serve the LIRR Flushing station.
Tanks.
That's cool.
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finally, a tax cut I can agree with.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df03152004.shtml#Will
Was it ever intended that the 8th Avenue local would run between B'way-Laff & 8th Ave., and the 6th Ave local between 6th Ave & WTC (then H&M)?
It seems that the 6th & 8th Avenue local lines south of West 4th make sharp switching to continue on their current routes, but on rare times when they switch routes they follow smoother switching (sort of link the F between Jay & Bergen St.). It is as if the IND planned the expresses to follow the current routes but the locals to switch between the 6th & 8th Ave. lines.
Is any of this true? If so, has it ever been attempted? A 6th Avenue local from WTC to 57th St. would be great, but would anyone ride a local from 8th Ave to the Lower East side?
NOTES for any replies - This is just a historical question, so...
1. I am not complaining about existing patterns
2. I am not suggesting alternate routings, nor proposing that anyone either create a proposed map or that the MTA use new colors
3. I have nothing against the V, C, F, Sea Beach, or any other lines.
4. I know about the JFK express running along this route, but that was surely not the intent of the original IND designers.
Have a good night, and thanks to all!!
Yes.
In 1936, when Houston Street/Rutgers Street opened, the EE (E after 1937) ran through it to Church Avenue. The 6th Avenue subway was not yet open.
In 1940, when 6th Avenue opened, the E still used this route, ending at Broadway-Lafayette, with the D running rush hours to Hudson Terminal.
In 1949, the E was rerouted to the Cranberry Street to Lower Manhattan and the CC started to run to B'way-Lafayette.
That all stopped in 1954.
1978-90 the JFK Express used to run on 6th and switch over to lower 8th at West 4th.
The F always ran it's current route however, between Jay St & 6th Ave line, right? That means that there was lots of local switching south of West 4th St, with different locals going different directions. At least the current pattern leaves the switches in place all the time (for regular routings).
Thanks again, John
Elias
NO!
The (F) used to terminate at 34th Street.
(BTW, Church St = Lower 6th Avenue/Avenue of the Americas)
Sure it will. The local tracks south of W4 have flying crossovers.
The (V) can terminate at Chambers WTC and the (C) can do Rutgers to Somewhere on the Culver with no disruption of switching patterns.
Running the (E) as the 8th Avenue Express eliminates the (C) to (A) merge to get into the Cranberry, and that will save switching too.
[yeah... I know all about an (E) to (A) merge at 50th Street, but that ought not to tie up traffic as badly.
Elias
But the current service pattern requires absolutley no switching moves. All 8th Ave locals are routed to Spring St, all 6th Ave locals to Broadway Lafayette. It could be done, but current trends do not demonstrate a desire to.
What other options are being looked at for F express restoration when Bergen St Interlocking project is completed.
Brooklyn-bound trains run express from 59 St to Kings Hwy
Weekend, 10 AM to 3 PM Sat, Mar 20
I was thinking that it was going to be express on the local, but then I looked on a track map... Sea Beach Express!
I'll be there, but hurry, it's only a 10AM to 3PM GO!
Also would have been a good idea for customers bound for New Utrecht Ave. to transfer to the D at 36th St. and take the D to 62nd St.
David
It's impossible. The N is stopping at 59th, and the West End line turns off 4th Avenue after 36th.
It's just an error on the TA's part.
The GO also ended an hour early.
Stillwell avenue was on the sheet I presume because the author just took a previous sheet and changed the dates, but didn't bother to change the information.
Yup. Right where it does no one any good at all. What good is an express on the Sea Beach, where there are no express stops?
What about the rest of the time. It was supposed to be an express after the 22nd of February except for late night. Does the Sea Beach still run express at all or has the TA emasculated the line just days and weeks after proclaiming it an express?
The N does run express - all the time except for late nights, just as was promised. I know, I do it five days a week. The GO that you keep whining about affects a grand total of five trains and they are running anti-peak direction early in the morning. Consider the alternative - what happens if you take 600' of train moving at 10mph over a 15' gap in running rails?
I headed back to 59th street making stops at Bay Parkway, 20th, and 18th avenues for photos. While on the local I spotted a 40 passing through Fort Hamilton parkway. I got to 59th street, crossed over, and was about to ride it again. Another 40 was coming down because 2 went up towards Astoria 90 minutes before, and the first one had passed. A 68a pulled in, and the T/O told me the GO was over! :(
My hopes of railfanning it were dashed. There will be a next time!
Side note: The Sea Beach line rates about a C- for photo ops.
There seems to be an all or nothing attitude about the stations these days. Those stations aren't so bad. A little paint and plaster would go a long way.
My own station is like that too. It isn't in that bad shape, but the tiles peeling off the walls at the track level make it look like hell. The attitude seems to be to wait for a comprehensive fix up, say in 2050.
Perhaps water makes basic interim maintenance a bad option. Or maybe lead paint means you can't do anything until you do everything.
Wishful thinking.
8th Avenue and Fort Hamilton Parkway aren't bad. I think the worst station was 20th avenue.
Open cut presents a challenge when photographing because you get a lot of shadows. The sun was also at a very tricky angle. I think these pics came out terrible because I could not get the lighting down.
If I were to say which station was the best for photographing, it'd be 20th avenue. I might go back there later in the day when the sun is less intense.
Not if you leave the line and take pictures from the overpasses. I got some great video from a GO, similar to this one, that occurred last year (or maybe 2 years ago, I forget) during the summertime.
--Mark
In theory, at least. I went out this morning to catch some photos of northbound N's on the express track, so imagine my surprise when I instead found...
...southbound D's on the express track! Looks like next week's GO started early.
I think that this maybe two possible suggestions:
1)A new underground subway which would run from JFK, Jamaica, Flushing, into the Bronx (probably through Parkchester, Pelham Bay, and Co-Op City underneath the 6 train). (Yes people may say that we have the AirTrain from JFK to Jamaica but this is just an idea)
2)Another new subway which would connect from Queens Plaza to the Bronx (*either to 138th Street to provide transfers to the 4,5, and 6 lines* or through 138th Street, Hunts Point, and maybe West Farms). This could be an extention to the G line which may improve ridership and also give another option to people heading from the Bronx to Brooklyn.
*People may think this idea is redundant because of express service on Lexington Avenue but it would avoid going through Manhattan and experiencing the slow morning rush hour just to get to a Queens-bound transfer at 59/51/42 Streets. If you take the 4,5, or 6 trains you would know at the height of rush hour that the 6 train (making all local stops) may reach Grand Central at the same time or even FASTER than the 4,5 express trains
I think that there is and probably will be even more of a need for another connection from Queens to the Bronx instead of the Q44/Bx1 routes which get easily delayed due to overcrowding and traffic on the Whitestone Bridge. It would be nice to have a direct option to Queens and even Brooklyn without the hassle of going through Manhattan.
Keep in mind that I'm not looking to be realistic just giving out any ideas that I can think of and if you have any about this I would like to hear them.
Even if such a connector were to be built (there might be good reaons for it, after all) it certainly would not serve all of Quees or the Bronx, and so a transfer is to be expected anyway.
Better to put money into FAST connections to the CBD, and allow people to transfer there.
Busses go across bridges between Queens and the Bronx, and that is sufficient.
Now then, this being said, and EXTENSION of the (G) along or under the Astoria Lion through the Bronx Terminals with a connection to CoOp City *does* have a certain appeal and a certain reason for being.
1) It brngs outlying areas of the Bronx to the Bronx Hub (such as it it).
2) It makes good connections with Queensboro Area Trains to Midtown
3) It makes good connections with Downtown Brooklyn Areas with their connections to Downtown.
4) and just on a whim, what if it were to get to Staten Island???
It would touch two heretofore underserved outlying areas, and it would string together three Downtown Business/Hub regions (Brooklyn, Queensbridge, and Bronx Market) in a route that bypasses and aleviates some Manhattan Congestion.
Elias
Really? Can you list some? I can think of any major developments in either borough that can justify such a line. I'd also like to see ridership statistics to back up something like that. Don't get me wrong, I still love Queens.
The grade on the Queens side of the bridge seems way to steep for rail.
The BQ? Eeeee!!!
Even at the expense of two highway lanes?
Would never happen!
There is no call whatsoever for an outside rail ring.
Elias
The Olympics rationale for the line doesn't make much sense. I'd think current plans would involve it.
Well the third most used transfer is on the Lexington Avenue line at 51st Street and also another used connection is Grand Central. I know people say well its because of Metro North and Manhattan but the 7 is a vital line for Queens customers to get to Manhattan and the E and V trains provide Queens Blvd. service. If there was a DIRECT connection from the Bronx to Queens Plaza (lets say) there would be a decrease in commuting time to Grand Central or any other connection from Queens to Manhattan. Think about it the only train which I can say gets people into Manhattan fast is the Concourse line (only because it makes a huge express stop from 125th to 59th Street) . The Lexington Avenue lines are extremely overcrowded and the 2 takes too much time to get just to 96th Street. It's not only just the borough aspect is commuting time too.
The borough aspect of it can be seen, obviously, in Queens but in the Bronx I cannot say a lot but for residental purposes:
Communities such as Co-Op City, Parkchester, West Farms, and Pelham Bay could use a connection to Queens. Also, a connector may decrease traffic on bridges as commuters would have a direct connection to their own destinations. Sorry if that doesn't help or make any sense but its hard to explain.
Nah... all of that is a big waste. The Airlines figured it out:
Yo got a hub and you got spokes. You take one train into the hub and another back out to your destination.
You wanna fly somewhere from here, you got two choices:
NWA to MSP or United to DEN; from either of those two places you can fly anywhere in the world. We used to have a "Local Plane" MSP-Hector-Bis-Billings-some other small place in MT-Boise-Spokane-Seattle.
But who in the world wanted to go to those places anyway.
And those as did never booked for the local anyway.
So we got a few fewer flights, but they are all full.
Change at Minniapolis for the rest of the world.
Same deal for the subway: Take one train into the CBD, and another one to your destination. Doesn't matter *where* your local crosstown goes, it only serves those places: everybody else... Cange at...
Elias
Stops
Queensboro/Queens Plaza - 7, E, N, R, V, W
40th Street/Queens Blvd - 7
61st Street - Woodside/Roosevelt Avenue - 7, LIRR
74th Street - Broadway/Roosevelt Avenue - 7, E, F, R
Roosevelt Avenue - Junction Blvd - 7
Northern Blvd/94th Street
La Guardia Central Terminal (A - D)
Hunts Point Market
Westchester Avenue/Morrison Avenue - 6
East 180th Street - 2, 5
White Plains Road/Pelham Parkway - 2
Williamsbridge Road/Pelham Parkway
Eastchester Road/Pelham Parkway
Gun Hill Road/Allerton Avenue
Bartow Avenue - Bay Plaza
Co-Op City Blvd
Dyer Avenue - East 233rd Street - 5
#3 West End Jeff
I'll plead ignorance in advance, so don't beat up on me too much.
Your pal,
Fred
REMEMBER WHEN IT WAS 10 OR 12 A DAY.
No place to terminate. That would be like repeating the mistake of the New York, Westchester, and Boston. No Manhattan terminal. I originaly suggested for New Jersey Transit NEC service to run to New Rochelle with these intermediate stops: Hunters Point, Astoria, Port Morris, Hunts Point, Bronx River, Parkchester, and Co-op City-Erskine Place. NJT trains would terminate on Track 5 at New Rochelle. The Astoria station would be built on the Hell Gate approach above the Ditmars Blvd station accessible via elevator.
Regards,
Jimmy
Your pal,
Fred
Regards,
Jimmy
Needless to say, I have those railway pipe dreams.
Your rural pal,
Fred
Your pal,
Fred
The Next stop will be Hunts Point Meat market, then under the Bronx River to Soundview, where there will be the White Plains Road-Soundview Ave stop, before turning north on Castle Hill ave. The route would then Fly over the Cross Bronx Expressway to ParkChester, for a Elevated Complex like Broadway Junction. Continuing along The Cross Bronx there will be a slight right to hae another Junction with the the 2 and 5 at E180th st. Then under the park and under Southern Blvd the train will Bend East under Phelham Parkway Right to CO-OP, Sharing a Terminal at Bartow Ave with the Extended D via Gun Hill Rd.
The Other End Would be extended To Staten Island Via Ft Hamilton Parkway as previously Intended, where it will tie in to the bellmouths off the R line to the partial portal towards the bay. Once In Staten Island It will go *ACROSS* Staten Island along the refurbished North Shore Line.
1]The D started off as a 6th Ave - Concourse line ending at Church Ave in Brooklyn.
2]1954, the D went to Coney Island via the Culver Line until 1967.
3]In '67 the D was shifted to the Brighton Line until the mid-80's.
4]The mid 80's had the split D service [6th Ave and B'way Express] to Coney Island via Brighton.
5]Then back to Brighton until 2001
6] And for now, it's the 4th Ave-West End D to Coney Island.
Anything I missed or was wrong? Please correct.
Thanks
Mark De Loatch
I always went for "fun dates" and the price was right. Heh.
And here's this NICE abandoned track between here and the Port of Smallbany and nothing to run on it. :(
In other words, don't get me started - folks down in da city don't KNOW it ain't bacon, that it's a porking from the CROOKS on the hill that inhabit State Street in "SeedyTAland" ... heh. But yeah, they be "peak hours" ... and we've got METRO TRAFFIC REPORTS to prove it. Hahahahaha.
Da Hui
IIRC, Before it reached Church Avenue, it terminated at Bway/Laff...
and before 6th Avenue made it to W4th Street, it terminated at 34th Street.
http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/news/local/8232149.htm
VRE is selling/leasing relatively young (1991) single level cars as they get more bi-levels. Mafersa licensed BUDD patents.
My question wasn't why it appeared (I linked the image intentionally). My question was why it annoyed him so..
:-)
Yes, if they felt it was a safety issue.
It is almost impossible to have 3 union representatives, from the same location, arguing the same case to the same managers to be selected 'randomly' to report for a FFD test.
Unfathomable, really.
We can start with Felix Ortiz, then Bruno.
Not if you know the leader of track dept. out there. He's been trying to climb to the top over the bodies of his co-workers for years. Nothing new really; just business as usual for him: get the job done.
That's the point. It's a clear-cut case of abuse of the system. It should be noted however, that management reserves the right to select anyone they wish for a random when designated as "REASONABLE SUSPICION" in addition to the 'randomly selected' employees scheduled for that day.
Of course, that doesn't apply in this case. Neither does the contract when it benefits an employee or inhibits performance numbers for the TA.
But that's another story.
Thanks
Angus
BTW: Once upon a year, the Transit used yellow for part-time staffing, with red used only for no staffing at all. Then, during the mid-1990's, a big shot V.P. decided to make them all red, then refused to change them back because "the passengers never complained" about it.
I'd support it; I mean I don't think it'll cost THAT much....
The following service routing scenario is based on the premise that line has been updated with CBTC allowing more trains per hour for local and express service
+ denotes transfer with another subway line
* denotes an express station
stations in bold indicate an express station
Branches
A. Hillside Avenue--extension beyond 179th Street to:
1. 264th Street and Hillside Avenue
2. Spur via Braddock Avenue to Belmont Park, then to Nassau County, terminating in East Meadow
Stations (east of 179th Street)
1. 188th Street/Hillside
2. 196th Street/Hillside
3. Francis Lewis/Hillside*
4. 212th Street/Hillside
5. Springfield Blvd./Hillside*
East of Springfield, the line divides three ways, east to 264th Street, southeast to East Meadow and north to Bay Terrace
To Floral Park (the extension to 264th Street is a four track line)
6. 235th Street/Hillside
7. Winchester Blvd/Hillside
8. Commonwealth Blvd/Hillside*
9. Little Neck Pkwy/Hillside
10. 264th Street/Hillside*
To Belmont Park and East Meadow
11. Winchester Blvd/Braddock Avenue
12. Gettysburg Street/Braddock Avenue
13. Jamaica Avenue+
14. Belmont Park+
East of Belmont Park, a 3 track line continues to East Meadow, consisting of about 21 stations, with peak express stops at Franklin Square, Hempstead, Carman Avenue and, and the East Meadow terminal itself, more specifically called Newbridge Road/East Meadow
The Winchester, Gettysburg and Jamaica Avenue Stations are two tracks, the Belmont Park station is four tracks
Note that the Springfield Blvd. Station is design to turn trains, both within station and in standard IND relay procedures
Also note that the Belmont Park Station can turn trains.
B. Bay Terrace Branch—a northern route from the Hillside Avenue mainline serving Bayside and Bay Terrace
Consisting entirely of two tracks, this line proceeds north along Springfield and Bell Blvds. and stops at the following stations:
1. Kingsbury Avenue/Springfield Blvd.
2. 73rd Avenue/Springfield Blvd.
3. 58th Avenue/Springfield Blvd.
4. 48th Avenue/Bell Blvd
5. Northern Blvd/Bell Blvd.+
6. 35th Avenue/Bell Blvd
7. 26th Avenue/Bell Blvd
8. Bay Terrace/Bell Blvd
C. Van Wyck Branch—originally proposed for the IND 2nd System, this line proceeds south down the Van Wyck Expwy, dividing into to a mainline to Rosedale and a spur branch to Kennedy Airport. The line consist of three tracks to Rosedale and two to the Airport. Rosedale service can allow peak direction express service.
Stations for Rosedale Branch—east of Van Wyck Blvd.
1. Archer Avenue/Van Wyck
2. Liberty Avenue/Van Wyck+
3. Linden Blvd/Van Wyck+ *
4. 141st Street/Foch Blvd
5. Inwood Street/Foch Blvd
6. 155th Street/Foch Blvd
7. Baisley Blvd-Rochdale Village/Guy Brewer*
8. 137th Avenue/Guy Brewer
9. Farmers Blvd/Conduit Ave*
10. Springfield Blvd/Conduit Ave
11. 229th Street/Conduit Ave
12. 243rd Street-Rosedale/Conduit Ave+ *
Service via Van Wyck to Kennedy Airport also stops at the Archer Ave, Liberty Ave, and Linden Blvd stations; diverging from the mainline to Rosedale south of Linden Blvd, the remaining stations along the spur are as follows:
1. Rockaway Blvd/Van Wyck
2. Conduit Avenue/Van Wyck (south of this station, the line enters the airport
3. Cargo Plaza
4. Kennedy Airport+ (the station is centered beneath the parking lots with an even distance from all 9 air terminals)
D. Laurelton Branch—originally part of the proposal to extend (E) service to southeast Queens via the LIRR Atlantic branch
The stations south of Jamaica Center is as follows:
1. South Road
2. 109th Avenue (one of the proposed original stations)
3. Cedar Manor (original LIRR station along this ROW, now long closed)
4. Foch Blvd
5. Baisley Blvd
6. Locust Manor (one of the current LIRR stations)
7. Springfield Blvd.
8. Laurelton (one of the current LIRR stations)—this station is given the street name 225th Street, which it crosses in the vicinity
E. Garden City (was Queens Village) Branch—formerly another part of the Archer Avenue project that was never built, this line was to extend to Springfield Blvd. in Queens Village, but in this scenario terminates in Garden City in Nassau County
This line diverges from the Laurelton branch east of the Jamaica Center station continues straightaway along Archer Avenue until that street merges with Jamaica Avenue, and proceeds along Jamaica Avenue, which eventually turns into Jericho Tnpk. Thereafter. Though the line was likely to be two tracks in reality—had it been built—it becomes 4 tracks about a mile and a half from Jamaica Center, allowing this routing to be served by two lines. The lower level (J/Z service) merges with the upper level (E service) to form a standard local-express-express-local track layout.
Stations along this line are as follows:
1. Merrick Blvd/Archer Ave
2. 172nd Street/Archer Ave—east of this station, the upper level and lower level of the Archer Avenue line merge to form one level consisting of four tracks
3. 180th Street/Jamaica Ave*
4. 188th Street/Jamaica Ave
5. 196th Street/Jamaica Ave
6. Francis Lewis/Jamaica Ave*
7. Hempstead Ave/Jamaica Ave
8. Springfield Blvd/Jamaica Ave+ *
9. Braddock Ave/Jamaica Ave+
10. Little Neck Pkwy/Jamaica Ave
11. Plainfield Avenue/Jericho Tnpk*
12. Lakeville Road/Jericho Tnpk
13. New Hyde Park Road/Jericho Tnpk*
14. Denton Ave/Jericho Tnpk
15. Marcus Ave-Courthouse Rd-Garden City/Jericho Tnpk*
F. Whitestone Branch—this line is based on the premise that the abandoned LIRR Whitestone line was converted to subway usage and that the IND World’s Fair Row became a permanent branch, except for the demolition of the World’s Fair station would’ve still occurred and the outdoor ROW along today’s Van Wyck Expwy was thereafter connected to the Whitestone Branch, providing direct service to College Point and Whitestone. The existence of this line wouldn’t have deterred construction of the Van Wyck Expwy, which could easily been built on either side of the line, allowing the subway tracks to be in the median of the expwy up until shortly before the interchange with the LIRR, where it would delve underground along College Point Blvd. for two stations, before returning outdoors again for merger with the LIRR ROW to Whitestone.
Stations along the branch are as follows upon diverging north from the Queens Blvd line after 71st Avenue:
1. Jewel Avenue (built when the line realigned to accommodate the Van Wyck Expwy; this station is located in the median of the expwy)
2. Horace Harding Blvd./College Point Blvd+
3. Sanford Avenue/College Point Blvd
4. Bridge Street-Flushing—original LIRR station
5. Industrial Park-25th Avenue (this station was added when the line was converted to subway service)
6. College Point (18th Avenue)—original LIRR station
7. Malba—original LIRR station
8. Whitestone (150th Street)—original LIRR station
9. Whitestone Landing—original LIRR station
So there are 6 branches with 11 possible primary terminal points (1) 264th Street, (2) Springfield Blvd/Hillside Ave, (3) Bay Terrace, (4) Belmont Park, (5) Newbridge Rd/East Meadow, (6) 225th Street/Laurelton, (7) Kennedy Airport, (8) 243rd Street/Rosedale, (9) Marcus Ave-Courthouse Rd/Garden City, (10) Whitestone Landing, (11) Springfield Blvd/Queens Village. Also 179th Street can still be used to turn trains.
179th Street, Belmont Park and both Springfield Blvd stations are secondary terminals and can be used to turn service not needed on the line(s) beyond those particular points. The other 8 stations are primary or end of the line terminals.
My question to railfans is, how would you route current service, to accommodate these additional lines? What routes would you change, extend or give an additional service to? Would you keep the revive the (F) express along Hillside, extend (E) service to Laurelton or to Garden City or Queens Village? What would you do with the (R) and the (V)? Note because of the “existence” of these additional lines, it wouldn’t be a good idea to keep local service turning at Forest Hills. That being the case, maybe the (G) could come back in the picture full-time. And what about additional service? Could there an additional line warranted—either local or express or both. Some had suggested extending (Q) service to Queens Blvd., but it cannot be done in reality with an antiquated signal system that cannot accommodate a large number of trains per hour. But with an CBTC system in place, an additional express service can become desireable. Also, with such a system in place, assuming that the 2nd Avenue line is already in operation, would you route a 2nd Avenue service to Queens Blvd? Would be local or express?
Also consider the number of trains per hour on the Queens Blvd. local and express tracks. Posters in the past posts on subtalk said the maximum number of trains per hour under the current signal system is around 35-40. Whatever the exact number is, an SOA signaling system could upgrade that number by 10-12. Though given how busy Queens blvd is, especially during rush-hours, the express service will likely given priority for increased tph. While you’re thinking about the routings, see if you can figure out the number of tph for each line during rush-hours.
The final issue to this scenario is rolling stock. In reality there are approximately 724-754 R46’s and about 400-420 R32’s at Jamaica. Obviously with all above mentioned additional subway coverage, more cars and more yard space is needed. As far as yard locations goes, where would you place an additional facility or facilities to help with rolling stock inspection and maintenance? Or, would you expand the Jamaica Yard to handle more cars?
For Rolling stock, the following is a list of cars that I’ve used for the two scenarios that I’m still working on. You have the option of creating additional cars of the current assigned fleets at Jamaica or choosing from the list below. Note that the total next to the fleet is the number available of these cars for NYCT routes. The scenario for which this particular question on routing services is based uses the following cars for Jamaica based trains:
R34 (640 cars) R37M (550 cars) R42 (484 cars)
R42A (400 cars) R50 (680 cars) R143 (800 cars)
TA-1 (980 cars) TA-6 (762 cars) TA-7 (306 cars) R30S (288 cars)rb R30WF (802 cars) R35/R37 (460/950 cars)rb
R35M (300 cars)rb R37WF (700 cars)rb TA-B (790 cars)rb
If you choose to add more R32’s an additional 300 cars are available, if you choose to add more R46’s, an additional 200 cars are available. The other current fleets are not available for use as they are assigned elsewhere. The addition of the R42’s here is considered a “bonus”
I’m looking forward to see what how you would handle this routing scenario by creating interesting and workable service patterns, providing more space to maintain rolling stock and choosing to assign additional fleets.
If you have any questions about this before tackling this scenario, please post them here.
>For more, check out Kevin Walsh's Forgotten-NY page. Scroll down to the 25th St banner (look for "In the late 1960s, following..."
I asked this question of one of the font freeks over at news:alt.binaries.fonts a little over a year ago, said freek told me the modern font used by New York MTA is Helvetica 52, WMATA uses the same font.
The Turu Type (TM) font Arial is a crappy knock off of Helvetica.
John
I think it pretty much stemmed down to Microsoft refusing to pay royalties to Apple over Helvetica. As a result, MS created their own version (Arial). Arial is a free, but horrible knockoff. Helvetica is clearly better with its straight edges. Unfortunately, since it is a 'Pay' font, it won't appear on you PC unless you have it downloaded to your computer. It isn't a prepackaged font so it is generally internet-unfriendly when it comes to viewing.
Going back to what is the font used by the MTA question. I asked some one in the know at WMATA over 25 years ago what the font that WMATA used and was told it was called Berlin bold. Berlin bold is similar if not the same as Helvetica. I have know idea whos font catalog Berlin bold came from.
John
Of course, there are 'other' methods to get such a file.
I don't know what you are suggesting...
wayne
(Even Before they even used letters, the Brighton Express was boss!)
Christie screwed everything up, but today's routes seem to be pretty good.
(Q) is Bway Exp 24/7, just the way God and the BRT intended it to be!
Elias
I mean, it *is* a nice train and all, and it *should* be an express, but *boss*? I don't think so.
: )- Elias
Another fun day on the South Jersey River Line. There was a mixture of (1) set & (2) sets of units running. Trains were 10 minutes late , which fouled up the line with delays. The single tracking is plo-grammatic, and I don't see any way around it, except to go and spend great hoards of money to double track it, which will never be
feasible. All in all, customer reactions and comments made were the best I've seem for a new line in a while.
"Gee, I have to two minute walk to the Florence Station, but I work in Cherry Hill" . So I told her to transfer to a bus a Walter Rand Center and the lady sort of warmed up to the idea! Again, most everybody liked it, and I rode today for $.50 . Ah, the joys of being 62. Tomorrow is the FPT Philly trip on a PCC out of Elmwood Depot.
Should be fun, especially if Trolley Bill is our operator.
Chuck Greene
The joys of modern day cheapness, and poor priorities which forces things to be designed to not be as desirable as possible. TECO trolley has that same shortcoming. The ride durations are random almost. The ride should be 25-30 minutes, but if you time the journey from the second stop in Ybor instead of the first stop, it's a fun 15-20 minute trip when things run smoothly. And a huge chunk in the middle, maybe 4/7ths of the route, the thing flys, best part of the trip. I'm thinking of just riding between those stops one day.
Well, I'd love to hear other systems single track stories. I wonder how often this design contributes to lack of attractiveness and other problems.
I guess the point was an inexpensive way to serve communities off the beaten track with just a few trains a day. But we have buses and trucks for those places now. If it doesn't merit two tracks, should it exist at all?
I hope there is at least ROW available to double track after the fact if the line succeeds. If it is precluded, I'd count it a blunder.
*If it doesn't merit two tracks, should it exist at all?*
Cheapness and cost cutting. I blame the same people who complain about spending 400k on a rail line down the median of the highway, but they don't have a problem putting a 400k elevated road in the middle of nowhere serving nobody but developers.
Basically complainers with messed up priorities designing systems designed to fail. I don't know how many systems have this problem though.
There's actually a single-lane underpass under the Metro-North Harlem line on Leewood Drive in Eastchester. It leads off a busy exit from the Bronx River Parkway, and is controlled by traffic signals at each end. It goes under a narrow stone arch that may have been built when the railroad was, or at least when the parkway was (1920s). Something from a bygone era.
When what is now the River Line was the PRR, the entire line was double track except for the single track running down Broad Street in Burlington.
Another annoyance is all of the young boys and their BMX or Motocross bikes. My trip up to Trenton had 6 of them [in one car]going up.
But going back to the families, too many of them are treating the RiverLINE like an amusement ride, not as a transit service. Maybe when the novelty wears off, then things will fall back to normal.
If you want to railfan the RiverLINE, do it on a weekday. You get the REAL riders, not suburban family nitwits with no particular place to go.
Chuck
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
-Chris
til next time
wayne
Robert
There was some kind of G.O. that day that caused A trains to run in three sections:
1. Between Manhattan and Lefferts
2. Between Rockaway Blvd and Far Rockaway
3. Between Rockaway Park and Beach 67 Street.
The date was established through this post, which is almost 4 years old.
I learned about the R142's in the Rockaways through the first post in the thread and went off to find them. I got a nice pic of 6306 (already posted), and another of the train with R38 #4118 in the foreground, which appears below.
I liked the 63rd Street line and tunnel and the Lexington Avenue, Roosevelt Island and 21st Street stations. Unlike the rest of the system, which is quaint and trying to recover its quaintness under the grime, these stations were planned to be "moderne." So they look and fell better to me than the bastardized modern renovations of the same period. The 57th Street station, however, is a horror. I'm glad I wasn't getting off there.
The Queensboro Bridge walkway is a poor sister to those in Brooklyn. It's on the wrong side the bridge for view purposes, though the view is OK, and right up against the traffic, while the Manhattan Bridge walkway puts you next to trains and the Brooklyn Bridge walkway put you above it all. The noise and fumes remind me of the GW, though the GW view is spectacular. The QB seriously needs a coat of paint, and I hope one is planned for.
The Roosevelt Island tram was fun, but it seems to need sprucing up. I know it was intended as a temporary mode of transport until the subway arrived, but the cars have not been replaced, and the buildings fixed up, since it opens. Seems a little crummy.
As it happens, I got the same feeling about Roosevelt Island in general. The bus was an old diesel smoker, more fumes than I had smelled since the introduction of the RTS. The stores on the main street appear not to have had a new fitout since the 1970s, when all the development appears to have been built. Some appeared not to have been cleaned. The newer buildings nearest the tram looked good, and some of the older ones are aging OK, but a huge area between the built area and the tram is empty. Some of the concrete buildings need repointing and repair. A wood historic building, apparently kept from a prior era, seems ready to fall down.
All in all, I sort of got the feeling I had walking around East Berlin in 1989, just after the walk feel and before the unification of Germany. A lot of concrete poured in a burst of optimism, but no investment and renovation since.
Anyone know about this place, and what is going on there? I had heard it was a cool place to live, but I was disappointed when I saw it.
Does anyone know why the plans called for most IND stations to get such large mezzanines? It seems that even on stations on the outskirts of the system, they will never be used to capacity. Or was it the idea of the second system in the future?
Thanks...
Remember that the IND's intent was to drive the IRT and BMT out of business. Had they done so, more people would have relied on the IND.
Even if a station was in the outskirts, they still built huge mezzanines (assuming the space exists) in anticipation that maybe in the future, the station could be heavily used and that they wouldn't have to spend millions in future reconstruction and expansion projects.
That's my best guess.
If you go there you can tell where the subway lines would be on the mezzanine level.
I've been writing up a little subway guide for transit training for my two daughters. I'll be teaching them to get around on their own this summer.
Two points I have already included: the IND has huge mezzanines where no one is around. That is dangerous. The IRT and BMT coordianted on joint stations where you can transfer. In many places, connections from the IND to the other two divisions involve long passageways added later, possibly a risky walk in the off peak hours (though less so than in the past).
Bottom line, they need to fill those mezzanines in with commercial space. My idea for Prospect Park 15th Street if and when it is rehabbed -- a ramp down from the ashphalt area of the park off Bartel Prichard Square, for handicapped and bike access. And fill out the mezzanine with a full service bike provider -- rentals for use in the park, parking for bike and ride, sales and repairs. Perhaps that would work at a few other locations.
Bars and nightclubs my other idea. At least people wouldn't be driving home.
Thanks...
Could be, but as you mentioned, yes, crossovers are to get from platform to platform. There are ,of course, crossunders too which go under.
-Chris
I agree, large mezzanines can be a security problem.
I got robbed transferring from the 6th avenue to 8th avenue lines at West 4th street about 3 years ago. They tried to get me in the stairs leading up from the mezzanine. Mind you, this was after 3PM on a weekday afternoon!
HEY! how did *they* get the nicer subway stations, I thought that *we* were supposed to be the Rich Capitalists!?
: ) Elias
Chuck
Besides, subway service is the LEAST of your problems under that scenario. Put out the busses, who cares?
-Chris
Sheesh, not only is NYC shut down, but all its suburbs as well. IMO, anyway.
Your pal,
Fred
Also the electric grid would be destroyed by the bomb's EMP. The subways would have no power.
Finally, Manhattan is rather oblong, and nuclear blast zones are generally radial in nature. Manhattan is 13 miles long. If something had a north-south range of 13 miles and struck in the middle of Central Park, it would also destroy Long Island City, and the Manhattan Jr. part of Brooklyn.
Finally, if Al Qaeda detonated a nuclear bomb in New York (the pseudo-national or national group that would do that), the world as we know it would be over.
Another issue is "atmospheric attentuation." maximum kill from direct radiation in winter, significant attentuation in steamy summer. For EMP to have much of an effect however, the blast would have to be above 50,000 feet which in turn would have minimal impact at the surface level. In government service, I learned that what we accept as reality and what we've been told is *NOT* correct ...
But it'd still kill millions. Most likely scenario though is a "dirtbomb" which would spread radiation rather than the "cold war flattened earth society" ... but is this something we really want to bounce around here? :(
I think a better prompt for it would have been "if Manhattan Island all of a sudden sank into the ocean, how would you route trains"?
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Spheres still have radii, so radial is correct.
As I said, worked for da gubbamint, was INVOLVED in this stuff peripherally, and thus had access to the REALITIES ... nuclear detonations are WEIRD stuff ... time/space twists, funky subatomic particles, and the outcome of the electromagnetic bits of it are as predicatble as a lightning strike ... if an enemy wanted to take out the electronics through EMP (and TRUST me, anything not TUBE-powered will NOT survive *true* EMP) ... I point to this interesting nostalgic view of something that would be worse for our current "mobile society" than a "dirty bomb" ... and CHEAP ... DOABLE. :(
Scwoo the A bomb, meet the E bomb, only $399.95
are you ever allowed to take a leave of absense, say for 6 months? i want to start this job but i am currently saving up money for a 6 month round the world, 4 continent trip, i figure it will take me a year to save up and i would be done with my travels by next june.
how much vacation time does one get a year? starting pay is $35,000 a year right?
since i won't have seniority what lines would be left for me to get? i assume there are some lines that people love to take and some that are the bottom of the barrel.
if anyone has any info feel free to reply or email me if you don't want to talk about your job here.
forthoseilove AT hotmail DOT com
thanks,
tim
Are you kidding? You are lucky if they approve a DAY off other then the 2 you get.
tim
You don't get paid for it tho' ...
B Div
North (A/C/J/M/L) Lines South (B/D/N/Q/W) Queens (E/F/G/R/V)
A Div
Bway (1/2/3/7) East (4/5/6)
The last lines to go when you finally Pick
North A/C Lines (Late PM) South N Line Queens E Line
Bway # 1 Line East # 6 Line
Well good luck they should call you in a year and a Half to 2 years.
The 1st full year that your in sevecice you get 2 week, so if 2005 is your first full year then in 2006 you get these weeks vacation.
In your 2nd full year you get 3 weeks for next year and in your 3rd full yaer you get 4 weeks from then untill your 15th full year.
After your 15th full years you get 5 weeks vacation from then on.
Robert
Between you, me and the other "Department of Civil Service" droids, ain't it a HOOT when the rubes find out that everything the right wing has FED them about civil service, it's ALWAYS a rude awakening as to the REALITIES? I'm only grateful that they no longer use BRANDING IRONS on yer butt like back in my day ... "you is OWNED!" :)
The standards werre 12' 1/16" tall. The R32's were slightly taller, when they first arrived. Their height had to be reduced to the level of the standards to clear all the tunnels.
: )-
R-32 is 12' 1 7/16" high from the rail head.
R-46 is 1/16" taller.
Robert
Yes, we have 4 and 5 car dedicated sets. So what, if need demands even that can be changed. Its a major shop job, but it is not impossible.
So *really* no flexibility is lost.
Elias
Robert
Robert
David
:)
Elias
This is all I know:
http://www.nycsubway.org/cars/r160.html
til next time
Your concerned pal,
Fred
Your pal,
Fred
:-)
-Chris
For the most part, the TA signs are pretty reliable, save for the rare error NPD is so kind to reveal with his DUH! threads.
If he rides any Queens Village or Casey Stengel bus route, he might see the ultimate "DUH!" poster, where a notice about a service reroute on the Q27 and Q31 says that buses are rerouted onto Frances Lewis Blvd. So what becomes of Francis Lewis Blvd? ;)
I don't think NPD does buses...in fact, I don't recall him ever posting on BusTalk. In any case, I don't mind his DUH! threads, but some posters seem to have issues with the Sprint website creating browser issues.
avid
#3 West End Jeff
Signed
What, are you a disgruntled G rider? :)
I've read posts claiming a reduction of trains on the F due to the V but that's all they were: claims.
However I am ok with it. And I think the V train rocks. :-)
You know, you may be onto something.
The G and V run roughly at the same interval on weekdays, 5-8 minutes at Rush hour.
The F has to make room for the G in brooklyn, and must make the same accomidations for the V.
The F slots in G's in Brooklyn, and then slots in V's. The F doesn't have to take a cut if it was slotting in G's in the past, and now slots in a different train at the same frequency further up the line.
The room was there in the past all along.
Theoretically the F didn't have to take a cut to fit the V if it was already slotting in G's that run with the same frequency.
Hillside Express is not fast at all. I have been on it several times. UNless you're crazy enough to go out to Parsons/Hillside at 7:50AM to catch one of these special rush hour trains, you aren't missing a thing.
The only people we hear about the V in general are the people who are against it. G riders, or F riders who think they got the shaft because of the reduction of train sets (I'd recommend looking at Bombardier and Broadway Junction's posts to get my point).
You are mistaken. The TA did what it could with the money it had. The line was delayed because the City of New York went bankrupt in the early 1970s.
"But it is their fault when they make a blunder and try to pass it off on the public as a service incress."
It is a service increase. The current line is something the TA "wanted to implement anyway. The bypass has not been implemented. But it still can be, in the future.
new rotes program,that the TAX PAYERS PAID FOR AND DIDN'T GET!"
Wrong. The money given to the New Routes program was not even close to what was needed to implement all the lines. Here perhaps the TA is at fault, for supporting unrealistic goals. But much of this money was reassigned to rehabilitation and repair, which was the smart thing to do.
The bypass can still be implemented to Forest Hills. There's nothing preventing that from happening except for budget and competing priorities. If you want to see it done, talk to your elected officials and make your viewpoint known.
It's not clear that $2.5 billion would have been enough to get everything done. And the TA had been neglecting basic maintenance for many years.
"But by the mid-70's,all routes except the Second ave,63rd st CROSSTOWN and the Southeast Jamaica routes to Springfield Blvd were DEFERRED."
New York City went bankrupt.
"NOW you know where those funds went,and I know where those funds went. The papers were full of scandles concerning the 63 rd st and Archer ave routes during the 80's."
Not really. In 1982, the Capital Plans were initiated. The TA has spent over $35 billion rebuilding the subways. That's where the money went. The $500 million that was supposed to start the Second Av line went instead to stopgap repairs to keep trains rolling on existing lines.
"But what I am saying,the TA pulled the wool over the eyes of the riding public concerning the Queens Bypass.In fact,they didnt even want to open the 63rd street line at all,untill the FEDS made them! Ronald Reagan himself told the MTA if they didnt finish,and open this tunnel,they would recieve no more funding and have to pay back all the new routes funding."
There was a lot of debate at MTA headquarters over that. Ultimately the maagers favoring the completion of the line won the debate, and the FTA position played an important role, but you overdo it on conspiracy theories.
The 6th Av Express tracks were needed to increase trunk capacity so that 63rd Street service would be viable. The other new stations represented incremental improvements to existing lines. New signals were essential for a safe ride.
New subway cars were needed to replace obsolete older ones.
"7 MILES OF NEW SUBWAY TUNNELS[spread out between the 63rd/Second ave and Archer ave subways]and a few other improvements elsewhere.."
You could argue that a more reasonable approach would have been to pick one project and implement it more fully than they actually did. But that's all water under the bridge. The Capital Plans provided a much improved, focused approach to improvements. Today both new projects are in passenger service.
"Icould go on about it,but you know the truth,and so does the MTA."
The truth is that you're letting your imagination get carried away with itself.
Not for express riders in Queens. It has increased their
average commute by 5 minutes, even more if their job happened
to be in downtown Brooklyn and they rode the G.
And the Riders at Roosevelt Ave, 71st Continental, Union Turnpike, (75th Ave and Van Wyck Blvd), When the F pulls in to the station first, or if they have just missed a E train.
The net gain in total seating capacity and the increase in service to local riders (who were previously short-changed) made the service plan a winner. Ridership patterns to date show that the whining about the V and the new F route is just that: whining.
Again I will say that the Queens Blvd express is overrated although it is obviously needed. They should make a better effort to encourage people from Jamaica to ride the J/Z. While they would most likely have to make a transfer to head to say midtown for example, its worth it.
Compared to what? Saving more than 5 minutes on an express run is substantial in NYC.
Compared to what? Saving more than 5 minutes on an express run is substantial in NYC.
They should make a better effort to encourage people from Jamaica to ride the J/Z. While they would most likely have to make a transfer to head to say midtown for example, its worth it.
It most certainly is NOT worth it. The E train takes nearly the same time to get to downtown as the J/Z. If I wanted to go to midtown, even a direct Jamaica/Broadway Bklyn/6th av train would be substantially SLOWER than the E train. Since such a train DOES NOT exist, you could have a 15 minute discrepancy there!
The answer is not to tell people to ride a much less attractive option. The answer is to make an express train that doesn't stop at Roosevelt.
Da Hui
Uhhh... when was the last time you used a QB express during rush hour. Granted with 63rd open its gotten better but it still crawls between 71 and Roosevelt.
> Besides if they dare elimintate all express service NYC will ROAR
No, just those who feel that 5-10 minutes is the end of the world.
Actually I don't use the QB express during rush hours.
Uh, yeah, but you CAN leave 10 minutes earlier to be there by 9, right?
And I use the subway to and from work every day and I always use the local, chaning for the C at Euclid Avenue. It takes me no more than 10-12 minutes additional travelling time depending on where I'm going. I get a seat, and even if I can't it doesn't get crush loaded like most expresses so its still comfortable.
But you're coming from the end of the line. Aren't there some seats?
In the PM rush, I can always get a seat on a S/B A train at 145th.
People underestimate how many riders come out of the Rockaways.
What city do you live in?
Consider this:
I can take an A or a C train. The A train is only 5-6 minutes faster than the C on the portion that I ride it. But when I factor in transfers to other trains, It saves me 10 minutes. 10 minutes is huge.
Da Hui
You're talking about two completely different destinations. And the fact that the E is only eight stops doesn't count track conditions that day, or the time it takes to go up the escalator (thankfully less now that they've installed another one).
"I took a J to downtown from Jamaica Center once and it seemed like FOREVER, will not do it again!"
That's because you're not paying attention to your watch. I took that trip several times and it gets you to City Hall a lot faster than the E plus the Lex does. Sure the ride grinds a ;little (all those tight curves). But in the end it's the watch that counts.
The Queens Blvd. express does get you to MIDTOWN (not downtown) faster than the local by about 10-12 minutes depending on conditions. That is significant on the morning commute, but it's only significant east of Jackson Heights. From Roosevelt Av it really doesn't matter much which train you take. If you skip a local to wait for an express, you could end up arriving later than the local you passed up.
Da Hui
Agreed. I like the express and its obviously vital but y'all sweat the express too much, its for extra capacity.
I'm not saying that the express is 'god'. In fact, if i'm really tired, and I want a seat, I'll take a C if there's no seats on the A. But otherwise, I'll save whatever time I can.
For 4 months I had a schedule so tight, those 10 minutes of savings gave me time to eat something before I had to leave my house again!
Da Hui
I'm going to address the E/J issue here, since it "seemed like foreever". You didn't mention the time of day, so I'll take one sample from the AM rush, midday and PM rush.
For this I will use the same starting points and ending points. Chambers and WTC for downtown (assume a person works at Chambers/B'way, 1 block walk to each), Parsons for Queens. I chose these two because it would be unfair to measure to 71 Ave as the J doesn't go there or 121 St for Lefferts Blvd as the E doesn't go there.
AM rush, going to work:
E: PA Lv: 0746 WTC Arr: 0839, run time 53 minutes
J: PA Lv: 0747 WTC Arr: 0831, run time 44 minutes
Hmmm... midday... samples when the J makes ALL local stops from Parsons to Chambers.
E: PA Lv: 1335 WTC Arr: 1421, run time 46 minutes
J: PA Lv: 1339 Chmb Arr: 1428, run time 49 minutes
3 minutes. Hardly worth it.
Let's take something from the beginning of the PM rush when people are going home, from downtown to Queens:
E: WTC Lv: 1700 PA Arr: 1754, run time 54 minutes
J: Chmb Lv: 1659 PA Arr: 1744, run time 45 minutes
HUH? The (E) is express and should be fatser, right? Sorry guy, play again tomorrow.
Now if you're going down by Wall Street, etc add 3 minutes to the (J) for Broad Street. You lose more time by making a connection at 51st to the 6 then again to the 4 or 5.
Also keep in mind that the J has no other line to contend with. If you have a sick apssenger, BIE, etc during the rush, the E must then contend with the F, R and V for local trackage. The J would be switched to the local or express depending on the location of the incident, with probably little interference from an M train.
10 minutes isn't big? It's the difference between being 5 minutes early for class/work or 5 minutes late. It's the difference between you catching your appointment and missing it. I've had an express run save me 2 minutes that were crucial to me. Had I not saved those 2 minutes, I would have missed the group I was to have a tour with.
Tell you what you do. Stand on a platform for 10 minutes with nothing to do, and tell me how it feels.
Personally, I like saving those 10 minutes instead of wasting them on a platform, after watching my connecting train pulling out. Especially when I'm tired, and my back is hurting from killing myself in practice.
There's no reason to run the train local. There's 10 minutes of reason to run it express.
10mintues my butt!You save shit pal.Time for a reality check man.The express is nothing more than a ton of garbage.While it maybe fun for the occasional railfan,as I said before,UNLESS YOU ABSOULTELY HAVE TO USE IT,IT IS WORTHLESS!!Get it through your damn thick skull!!
Don't be an ass.
No, the real reason is CAPACITY. Not of railcars but of the tracks. You need to run more tph than a single line can handle, so another line. That line might as well be an express line.
Elias
1. The answer is to tell people to ride the fastest way from point a to point b. Which doesnt always have to be a express train.
2. If you can create the space so a express train doesnt stop at Roosevelt, then more power to ya.
But in this case, it IS the express train.
If you can create the space so a express train doesnt stop at Roosevelt, then more power to ya.
I'm not even saying that this is necessary. I think that service improvements made by the V are enough. I'm just stating what would be needed for less crowded expresses.
You know, I think we should create a thread on how many posters on here support V. RD = None. :P
Count me in.
I'm going to stand by my statement and if you don't like it then that's too tough. So when a express train gets held at Roosevelt or Queens Plaza [for the E] gets held then the 5+ minute savings will go down to almost zero, and at times you have a negative time savings and this has actually happened so don't think the express is always the shit. Don't get me wrong, of course it is obviously needed.
It most certainly is NOT worth it. The E train takes nearly the same time to get to downtown as the J/Z. If I wanted to go to midtown, even a direct Jamaica/Broadway Bklyn/6th av train would be substantially SLOWER than the E train. Since such a train DOES NOT exist, you could have a 15 minute discrepancy there!
If I were a Jamaica customer, I would take the J over the E at most times. And where did I even talk about a direct midtown train using the Jamaica line? All I said was that the J can be utilized more than it is currently. Throw a express track on the Jamaica el and remove the S-curves and the J would beat the E by at least more than 5 minutes.
The answer is not to tell people to ride a much less attractive option. The answer is to make an express train that doesn't stop at Roosevelt.
If the bypass tracks were to ever be built, then that's a different story but right now its in the back burner.
Well then, if you want to bring in abnormal factors, let's keep it even. What about when the local train gets held somewhere? Let me give a real example:
One day there were delays on both S/B CPW Local and expresses. Since the S/B A I was on had just turned and gone back to 207th, I decided to board a B train at 125th. We Crawled the WHOLE FREAKING WAY. Expresses were crawling too, but they were crawling faster than us.
So I get off at 59th. A "C" train comes, but after watching expresses pass me on CPW, I wasn't about to let it happen again. I waited over 2 minutes for the A train to come. This A train caught up to 2 C trains, and from 59th to Canal saved me over 10 minutes. (C and E trains were backed up from the earlier delay).
I guess this case made the express the majoro shitto!
You can't use exceptions to the rule to solidify your argument. It works both ways.
If I were a Jamaica customer, I would take the J over the E at most times.
This doesn't prove anything. The # of people who really are Jamaica customers prefer the E, and for good reason!
And where did I even talk about a direct midtown train using the Jamaica line?
I never said that you did. But you said that people headed to midtown should take the J. The fastest way to do that (direct line) would still be slower, which was my point.
All I said was that the J can be utilized more than it is currently.
Additionally, so could the G line. Why is the G line not utilized more than it is currently? Ah, I remember. It's because it doesn't go where people want it to go. Same for the J. And in this case even if it did, it would be substantially slower.
Throw a express track on the Jamaica el and remove the S-curves and the J would beat the E by at least more than 5 minutes.
This is dumb. First of all, WHERE would it beat the E to? Even with such a bypass track, It STILL would not be faster than the E to points in midtown. That stated, it is already marginally faster than the E to downtown, with skip-stop and Broadway exp service.
I'd also like to point out what you said EXACTLY after you made the last statement I italicized:
If the bypass tracks were to ever be built, then that's a different story but right now its in the back burner.
So, your express track on the Jamaica el is realistic, but a bypass track on QB isn't?
Maybe it's time to break out the smelling salts.
One day there were delays on both S/B CPW Local and expresses. Since the S/B A I was on had just turned and gone back to 207th, I decided to board a B train at 125th. We Crawled the WHOLE FREAKING WAY. Expresses were crawling too, but they were crawling faster than us.
So I get off at 59th. A "C" train comes, but after watching expresses pass me on CPW, I wasn't about to let it happen again. I waited over 2 minutes for the A train to come. This A train caught up to 2 C trains, and from 59th to Canal saved me over 10 minutes. (C and E trains were backed up from the earlier delay).
I guess this case made the express the majoro shitto!
You can't use exceptions to the rule to solidify your argument. It works both ways.
I didn't necessarily leave out the local train holdings deliberately. In my point I'm specifcally talking about the express trains and how they don't necessarily save the amount of time that people think it does.
This doesn't prove anything. The # of people who really are Jamaica customers prefer the E, and for good reason!
I'm stating my preference but people will of course favor the express over the skip stop/local service, that's just the way it is.
Additionally, so could the G line. Why is the G line not utilized more than it is currently? Ah, I remember. It's because it doesn't go where people want it to go. Same for the J. And in this case even if it did, it would be substantially slower.
The G skips Manhattan then you had the introduction of the V so of course the G had to take a backseat and be terminated @ Court Sq; not to mention that 3 local services wouldn't fit in the peak hours anyway. Also many people head into lower Manhattan as well via the J train. Since the Nassau trunk is more of a line with transfer points, of course people will have to transfer, which I did say in the beginning and thus will have a alternative.
If the bypass tracks were to ever be built, then that's a different story but right now its in the back burner.
So, your express track on the Jamaica el is realistic, but a bypass track on QB isn't?
Ok I should of said IF there were a express track [Relax, I know its unlikely] on the Jamaica line then it would be a second [better] option to the E. If I recall it correctly the J was extended with the E to get people off of Queens Blvd going into Manhattan but obviously it didn't move as much people as they thought it would have.
I guess I can attest to your point somewhat. I was on an A express at 59th, N/B. Two guys jumped from the B onto the A and exclaimed that this would save them 15 minutes.
Still, the point of this conversation is people taking the J/Z over the E. If the E is even only 5 minutes faster, it makes sense to take the E. Why take the J/Z because the E might have a delay on it?
The G skips Manhattan then you had the introduction of the V so of course the G had to take a backseat and be terminated @ Court Sq; not to mention that 3 local services wouldn't fit in the peak hours anyway.
The point here was that more people ride the E because it goes to more important destinations than the J. This is the same reason more people prefer the G over the E.
Ok I should of said IF there were a express track [Relax, I know its unlikely] on the Jamaica line then it would be a second [better] option to the E. If I recall it correctly the J was extended with the E to get people off of Queens Blvd going into Manhattan but obviously it didn't move as much people as they thought it would have.
The J is faster than the E to lower manhattan. In fact, a transfer from the J to the A at B'way Junction (if it works out without the maximum wait for the A) probably is 15 minutes faster than the E train to lower manhattan. I know some people who notice this.
And what are those reasons?
You write as if this were a small undertaking. This is a major construction project, and needs to compete with other ways of spending the money to increase or improve service.
You're right. However, I said NEARLY. It's not like it's a good 10 minutes.
Right now it does that during the rush.
The Answer is to build my "Myrtle-Fifth Avenue Subway"
Nonstop from Jamaica/Supthin to Downtown Brooklyn at 75 MPH.
Two more stops downtown, three in midtown then EXPRESS via Northern Blvd or to CoOp City via Fifth Avenue and Grand Concourse with only two more stops until Bedford Park.
You might not like my plans for the Culver Line, but I *do* know what an EXPRESS train is supposed to look like!
: ) Elias
Of course, the Myrtle Fifth Avenue line is after all a Brooklyn Line.
Now at the north end of the service... Northern Boulevard, and from CoOp City... Your QB line, and especially the (7) line which this wants to supplement is not going to beat my Northern Blvd line to Mid-town.
You will also notice that my Fifth Avenue Line has no stops whatsoever between 59th Street and 116th Street. The NIMBYs there want not the disruption, and they say that their transit is adequate (meaning it keeps out the wrong kind of people), so my line is built deep and they will never even know that it is there. (I probably have to make a new map for my website, as it is not up to date with my latest drawings of the Myrtle-Fifth Avenue Line.)
Elias
Some new content would always be fun :-D
Extend skip-stop service, leaving Jamaica Center from 6:45 AM to 8:30 AM and leaving Broad St from 4:20 to 6:30 PM. Run skip-stop from JC to Broadway Junction, then J Express from B.J. to Marcy (the Z will run local, makes no difference since local stations have 10 minute headways anyway.)
People won't use the J. As far as they're concerned its not a real express, even though its running time is comparable to that of the E. People would rather be on a crowded "express" than a not so crowded local that takes just as long to get downtown.
Damn Right! Acually this is all moot, most people get off the E train before it gets past 14th ST
There has has been a slight decline in seating capacity over the past 50 years.
They used to run 17 tph each for the E and F, using 11-car trains of R1/9's. They also used to run 10 tph of Brighton locals of 8-car AB standards. They currently operate 15 tph each for the E and F, using 10-car R32's and 8-car R46's. The R operates with 6-8 minute headways 8 tph, using 8-car R46's. The V opeates 10 tph, using 8-car R46's.
Formerly, the number of seats was:
E: 17 tph x 11 cars/train x 56 seats/car = 10,472 seats/hr
F: 17 tph x 11 cars/train x 56 seats/car = 10,472 seats/hr
BMT: 10 tph x 8 cars/train x 75 seats/car = 6,000 seats/hr
Total: 26,944
No, the number of seats is:
E: 15 tph x 10 car/train x 50 seats/car = 7,500 seats/hr
F: 11 tph x 8 car/train x 75 seats/car = 6,600 seats/hr
F: 4 tph x 10 car/train x 50 seats/car = 2,000 seats/hr
R: 8 tph x 8 car/train x 75 seats/car = 4,800 seats/hr
V: 10 tph x 8 car/train x 75 seats/car = 6,000 seats/hr
Total: 26,900
That's a net loss of 44 seats, under 1% so a wash. However, how much money was spent replacing the R1/9s and AB standards with cars that accomodated fewer people? How much money was spent building spent on the connector to bring the 63rd St tunnel to Queens Blvd? How much money was spent on Chrystie St to make operating 11-car trains impossible? Were all these improvements necessary to keep the chance of getting a seat to be nearly the same? I'd have expected some improvement for the billions spent.
Yes, they did. They also ran 34 tph on the Queens Blvd line. These two differences combined for an effective 25% increase in express service over what they provide today.
Look at the numbers a little more carefully.
The increase in seating capacity came from 3 factors: more seats per car; more cars per train and more trains per hour.
Would you be more specific as to how designing cars with 12% more seats per car affects safety? Perhaps you would comment as to whether standing passengers are safer than seated ones.
Would you be more specific as to how operating trains that are 10% longer affectes safety, when the stations were designed to handle cars of that length?
These two factors provided 23% more seats on express trains. How did this affect safety?
Finally, there's the question of operating 34 tph instead of 30 tph with a signal system that is designed top operate 40 tph with complete safety. How many fatalities occurred when they operated 34 tph on the QB express tracks? How many accidents or collisions?
But because they [TA] are less cavalier about people's lives than you are, they don't.
The reverse is true. There have been two fatalities on the Queens Blvd line as a result of a railroading accident (Roosevelt Ave). A commission composed of engineering experts was convened by Mayor Lindsay to investigate this accident. One of this commission's conclusions was that there would not have been any accident had the TA not cut corners with the design of all subway cars starting with the R26.
The IND's designers had forseen the possibility that the brakes on the lead car would have to be cut out. They designed the signal system so that a collision of the type that happened at Roosevelt Ave would have been prevented.
The IND's designers did not forsee that future car designers would ignore such safety considerations. You should note that current car designs have compounded this same shortcoming.
Your knee jerk reaction to any suggestion that the subway system provided better service in the past raising a safety red flag. This is a red herring.
The system went without a single fatality and very few incidents of any kind during the 40 years between 1930 and 1970. They have had more fatalities and incidents in the subsequent 34 years using "modern safety practices".
"One of this commission's conclusions was that there would not have been any accident had the TA not cut corners with the design of all subway cars starting with the R26."
So once again you are living in the 1950s. You resemble the guy who has to be coaxed out of his foxhole 50 years after WWII ended.
Well, Subtalk is good for silliness too. Feel free.
Two more red herrings?
1. No subway or elevated cars have ever had isles. :-)
2. I assume you mean better designed aisles. On what do you base your assertion? Loading times are longer for the newer cars even though they seat less and have the same capacity as the old ones.
3. There was nothing that prevented wheelchairs from entering the old equipment. The only thing they were lacking was a flip up seat. That's a cosmetic change rather than a major design shortcoming.
you are living in the 1950s.
I lived in the 1950's during the 1950's. I don't need a TA truth squad to tell me things are better now. I know that many things are not. In particular, the TA and BOT did a better job of meeting rush hour demand than the TA currently does.
You are asserting that the greater service levels in that era were the result of decreased safety. I've pointed out that there is no evidence to that effect. You have not provided any.
Really? How?
One should consult US Patent 1,142,263 to see how seat and pole placement can improve loading time.
Since cabs are only present at the conductor and T/O cars (keeping in mind these cars are in semi-permanent 5 car sets) you have more seating space from where what would've been more cabs. So by comparing the R142/A to, let's say the R62/A or even the Redbirds, you get some extra seating out of it.
When the NTSA brings back crash standards of the late 1940s and 1950s, your argument will be valid. Otherwise you're poisting nonsense (and you're fully aware of it).
The slight time loss is mitigated by the increase in efficiency and service as a result of the new service plan. Most QB riders complaints about it are groundless.
During peak commuting hours, all access is cut off to the N and R trains, forcing G train riders to walk a long and difficult transfer tunnel to the E train and new V line.
No, they have never simultaneously had access to the N and R trains.
What a crap website.
They'll get their longer trains back when more rolling stock shows up. as to the rest, well, whining is a fine tradition in New York.
During peak commuting hours, all access is cut off to the N and R trains, forcing G train riders to walk a long and difficult transfer tunnel to the E train and new V line.
Since when did G riders have a simultaneous transfer to BOTH N and R trains without using another fare or using a wlaking transfer with an unlimited to Queensboro Plaza.
The Governor and the MTA made a big mistake when they cut G service and put the V in its place. A huge (and growing) number of people ride the G train every day, while the V is a train that no one - whether a resident of Manhattan, Queens or Brooklyn - wants to use.
Are they serious? They haven't seen that the V is also a line that has a growing number of riders over time. While G riders have gotten the shaft over time, there was nothing they could do to get three lines along Queens Blvd. Had they completed the Roosevelt Av upper level, this wouldn't be a big problem and there would be more flexibility.
If a QB express rider needs to transfer to the 6, that also
effectively adds an average of one half of the headway to the
trip because the rider needs to wait for the over-crowded E
train. Or, the rider can take the V train which is 7 minutes
slower between Continental and QP than the express.
I'm not even going to get in to the magnitude of the shafting
that GG riders got.
To call it a "service increase" is misleading. It is a service
re-shuffling. Some people won, some people lost.
Now, how much money was spent on the connector? If that money
had been spent on improving the signals on 53 St and buying
more rolling stock, would that have created a bigger service
improvement?
I find it hard to believe it's 5 extra minutes. I also have no idea of what slow curves you refer to.
If a QB express rider needs to transfer to the 6, that also
effectively adds an average of one half of the headway to the
trip because the rider needs to wait for the over-crowded E
train. Or, the rider can take the V train which is 7 minutes
slower between Continental and QP than the express.
There's 2 other options:
1. transfer at 63rd/Lex, where there are xfers available to the 4 & 5 also. Granted, it's a 3 block metrocard transfer, but it is there.
2. A lot of said passengers are going to 68th. NYCT signs have encouraged riders to walk the distance from 63rd. This is not a huge burden.
I'm not even going to get in to the magnitude of the shafting
that GG riders got.
You mean us G riders? Sure, we lost some service. When G trains were first cut to 4 cars, I was alarmed at the crowding, but it isn't that severe.
Now, I'll assume that you mean their lost connection to QB as well? An argument can be made for anywhere that services should be connected. In fact, I could argue that Franklin riders are screwed because they do not have a direct connection to the Fulton Line. Lost service was a bummer, but it's not the total devastation some make it out to be.
To call it a "service increase" is misleading. It is a service
re-shuffling. Some people won, some people lost.
Let's re-cap:
QB LOCAL riders +:
1. Got an overall service increase.
2. Got a HUGE service increase to manhattan.
3. Got DIRECT service to 53rd/Lex.
4. Got DIRECT service to 6th avenue
QB LOCAL riders -:
1. Lost one-seat ride to Crosstown Line.
QB Express riders +:
1. F riders had all local riders between Queens Plaza and Roosevelt completely off their trains.
2. Riders to Lex and 5th avs from Same local stations mentioned above now off of exp trains for the most part.
3. New destinations added.
QB Express riders -:
1. Lower headways to/from 53rd st tunnel.
Seems like the trade-off has more Pluses than minuses.
Now, how much money was spent on the connector? If that money
had been spent on improving the signals on 53 St and buying
more rolling stock, would that have created a bigger service
improvement?
What are we talking about here? Implementing CBTC? Maybe. But the present system allows for more capacity and routing flexibility.
Because you're a G rider and now you'll never see the F train,
unless you go south to Bergen! Before all this connector work,
F trains had a straight shot from 36 into Queens Plaza, no timers on
the slight curve into Ely, timers in the river tube (but pretty
quick), and then the only real restriction around the curve
at 5 Ave into 50 St. Now, you have GT20 as soon as you go
down the ramp onto T1 track, more timers in the river tube,
a station stop in the middle of the river tube (!), more timers
and a slow curve into 57-6 and, IIRC, one more timer approaching
50 St. Plus, the E train "benefitted" from the Queens Plaza
signal rape project by gaining timers and blind freakin trips
entering QP on D3 track.
There's 2 other options:
Both of which cost an additional 5 minutes, back to my original point.
What are we talking about here? Implementing CBTC?
Heavens no! I want something that will actually improve train
throughput, not grind it to a halt! I mean changing the signal
arrangement to provide longer station time cutbacks approaching
Lex and 5 Ave.
Did you investigate whether dwell times at 21-Queensbridge are less than those at Queens Plaza (because there is no transfer there)?
The 63rd street line increased total throughput capacity to Queens by about 20% by adding an additional local train that wasn't there before. If you want to verify this, compare the total tph currently for F + E and compare it to the old total of F + E. Next lookat the R and N schedules. Now add the V train's tph number.
If you want to spend $100 million you can bring the G train into a new lower level at Queens Plaza. I suggested such a solution to the TA and to this board, but the idea was shot down because the slope of the required ramp was too severe, among other things.
Find something else to whine about..
Why do you call anyone who makes a negative observation about a
service plan a "whiner" ?
Fine, I am a QB express "customer", and I am WHINING about
my service, which SUCKS more now than it did prior to the 63
St connector opening.
Are you Ron IN Bayside, or Ron who USED TO BE FROM Bayside? I
thought you were out of town now? At any rate, do you use the QB
line on a regular basis? I have been for 20 years. I can tell
you from repeated riding and observation that the F takes 3 minutes
longer between 50/6 and Roosevelt via 63 St than via 53 St.
Remember that the 63 St route is going 10 city blocks north
and then 10 blocks back south relative to 53 St, i.e. a mile out
of the way. At schedule speeds of 10-15 MPH, it's not hard to
see why that would add a few minutes. And that does not include
merging delays. Northbound there used to be the merge at 5 Ave
with the E. Now that merge is still there, at 36 St (but the new
interlocking design is much less efficient than the old one,
so it takes longer to clear the route), but southbound, where there
was no merge, we now have a conflict with the V at 50/6.
Furthermore, the route via T1/T2 tracks IS slower than via D3/D4.
That is a simple consequence of the physical characteristics of the
line. Don't tell me curves and gradient don't matter. Read any
textbook on railroad engineering. You make a station stop in
the middle of a river tube and now all of your momentum is gone
exactly when you need it the most.
If I do catch the E s/b, frequently we catch up to the V at QP
and suffer the indiginity of having that useless service shoved
in front of us. It wouldn't as bad if the signal system didn't
grind everything to a near stand-still whenever that move is made.
Blind trips?! No one knows how to run a railroad anymore.
If you have two services converging, one with a straight iron
move, and one with a diverging, you give the lineup to the straight
move if both trains arrive at nearly the same time. Why? Because
the straight move clears the plant faster and doesn't require you
to knock down the approach signals. Well, I guess it's bound to
happen when the V line Super's desk is in the master tower :)
OK, admittedly I haven't been riding the rush hours for years now.
So here is my perspective as a mid-day rider: The E trains are
overcrowded because the F doesn't connect with the 6 anymore.
No express rider in his or her right mind is going to get out
at Roosevelt and wait for the R or V, which are running on 8 or
10 minute headways. The Metrocard transfer at 63/LEX, GMAFB!
Yeah, I'll take the escalator ride into eternity, then walk 3
blocks. Build me a connecting passageway and then we'll talk.
When I worked in downtown Brooklyn, I would frequently take the
GG. To me, that was a tremendously under-valued route. It saved
a full 10 minutes over the F. I could also get into lower Manhattan
via the Canarsie connection or the A at Hoyt. Now, fuggetaboutit.
To catch the G, I either have to drop back one (wait for a crowded
E train to take me to Ely) or transfer at Roosevelt from the F
to the V and hope it comes eventually. Then I still have to endure
the transfer at Ely. The designers of the IND are spinning in
their graves!
It is time for you to move on to the next logical step.
I'm not an apologist. The MTA put together a very good service plan, and have implemented and are implementing significant features to help G line customers who saw their trains truncated. Also, new rolling stock should restore train length within a couple of years.
"Why do you call anyone who makes a negative observation about a
service plan a "whiner" ? "
You're not a whiner in general, but you did whine about this. And you observed something whose impact is clearly not what you ascribe to it.
"At any rate, do you use the QB
line on a regular basis? I have been for 20 years."
So did I. And I rode the new service plan after Dec 2001 many times, and saw it first hand. And I know what's been going on ridership-wise since then.
"I can tell
you from repeated riding and observation that the F takes 3 minutes
longer between 50/6 and Roosevelt via 63 St than via 53 St."
Oh, so now it's 3 minutes, not 5 minutes? OK, if you have repeatedly measured that, then I accept your observation. We hereby agree that the ride is 3 minutes longer. Fair enough?
"If I do catch the E s/b, frequently we catch up to the V at QP
and suffer the indiginity of having that useless service shoved
in front of us."
Now you're whining like a crybaby. Knock it off. The V is doing what it supposed to be doing, and if a few people still don't like it, well, write to MTA and ask the agency to change it back.
"No express rider in his or her right mind is going to get out
at Roosevelt and wait for the R or V, which are running on 8 or
10 minute headways."
Let's see, two trains which both get you to the Lex, each at 8 minutes' headway, that's 4 minutes combined headways... hmm...you're whining again...(and by the way, I've done that transfer too).
"No one knows how to run a railroad anymore."
That includes you, by the way.
"The designers of the IND are spinning in
their graves!"
Yes they are, over your ridiculous whining. Move on and try to offer something a little more constructive.
Fine. I shouldn't sink to the level of describing people's
arguments with one-liner labels.
How about "you are agressively defensive of the MTA's decisions,
policies and practices?"
Whenever someone posts something critical, your response is
invariably to the effect that the MTA was 100% right, and then
you resort to name-calling and ad-hominem attacks.
I will say that you have been supportive of people going to public
hearings and speaking up. Now, I'll drop a bombshell. Public
hearings are just a flogging that the MTA is legally required to
endure. They have very little impact. The Crosstown riders
were very vocal at the public hearings, but it did not result
in any service plan concessions. They still got cut back to Court
Square, even mid-day, and they got their train lengths cut.
The only concession was the people-mover, i.e. vaseline.
Another bombshell. The current service plan with the V & W was
already decided upon when construction of the connector began.
The PROFF? In 1989 the sign workers (whatever their proper
civil service title is?) accidentally posted new train service
decals at Continental Ave: V Local, days, to 2 Ave. These
signs were quickly covered over with the correct decals, but
the writing was visible underneath for quite some time until
the signs were totally re-done. The W also began to appear on
new rollsigns at around this time.
The reason why the D-T connector was built was purely political,
to quiet the BS that billions had been wasted on "THE TUNNEL
TO NOWHERE". Whatever service plan was implemented had to ensure
that there was actually a respectable number of passengers per hour
going through those tubes. I'm sure you have your fingers in both
ears by now trying not to listen, but that's the reality of it.
So I'm not questioning so much whether the V plan made sense given
that the connector was built, as if it made sense to build the
connector at all? How much was spent on it....900 million?
"No one knows how to run a railroad anymore."
That includes you, by the way.
There you go again with the personal attacks. You have no basis
on which to make that claim. In fact, I have a great deal of
both theoretical and practical knowledge on railway signaling,
scheduling and operations.
That may be. But you certainly don't bolster your case for the failure of the 63rd St tube with this other statement:
Remember that the 63 St route is going 10 city blocks north
and then 10 blocks back south relative to 53 St, i.e. a mile out
of the way.
A quick glance at a map shows that the F goes at most 1/4 mile more distance than it used to.
I simply pointed out to you that the 63rd Street service plan as currently operating is an excellent one. If you had a better one, you could have posted it. You didn't.
"Whenever someone posts something critical, your response is
invariably to the effect that the MTA was 100% right,"
Not at all. MTA makes a lot of mistakes, but most of them are trivial. On this board, however, there is that group of people who will spend their time turning these molehills into windmills and then mount their horses or donkeys and lunge at them. That's OK; that's what this board is for.
For the record, I have written to MTA about certain issues where they could do better, and some of my ideas have been implemented. The Straphangers complain about MTA, sometimes in ways I find silly, but MTA has listened to them too, and they get a little partial credit for several initiatives, including the Capital Plan process, the clean car initiatives, free subway-bus transfers and MetroCard insurance.
Where were you when all that happened? You could do the same (and maybe you did??). But you have to know how to go about it.
"you resort to name-calling and ad-hominem attacks."
No. I admit that I am often harsh in criticism of posts where the rock-throwing and MTA bashing becomes silly and even juvenile. Perhaps I should tone that down. However, if your only way of responding to criticism is to claim "ad hominem" then maybe posting on public boards is too stressful an activity for you.
"I will say that you have been supportive of people going to public
hearings and speaking up. "
Yes, and I encourage you to do that. Whether or not you agree with me the MTA, or anybody else.
"Now, I'll drop a bombshell. Public
hearings are just a flogging that the MTA is legally required to
endure. They have very little impact."
False statement, and that specific post shows a very juvenile attitude. In fact, the public hearings are one tool which I and others use to reinforce points that are also communicated by phone, letter (to MTA and elected officials) and public legislative hearings.
If you use the hearings solely to vent and scream, that's fine, but you're not applying the skill set necessary to get anything done. If that is the method used, there's no reason for anyone to take you seriously.
"The Crosstown riders
were very vocal at the public hearings, but it did not result
in any service plan concessions."
False statement. They got MetroCard transfers in two places; a commitment to upgrade and integrate the stations in the LIC area (including ADA compliance)that G riders transfer to, and also retained full-length G service on weekends, which MTA's staff had initially voted to eliminate completely. The construction work is underway.
I personally was very active in proposing and pushing for a set of concessions, and MTA responded to me and others by agreeing to an implementation plan. So far, they are keeping their promises.
MTA even ran a weekday test of a full length V and G running together to see if that was going to be feasible, and everyone - MTA supervisors, T/O's, dispatchers in the towers - thought it was a disaster.
No bombshell here; I hear you saying that if MTA didn't give you everything you wanted exactly as you wanted then you think the whole plan is worthless. Unfortunately for you, 900,000 people just outvoted you.
It would be nice to hear you offer something constructive. I'm still waiting.
"Another bombshell. The current service plan with the V & W was
already decided upon when construction of the connector began.
The PROFF? In 1989 the sign workers (whatever their proper
civil service title is?) accidentally posted new train service
decals at Continental Ave: V Local, days, to 2 Ave."
So what. Do you really think MTA should start construction of a new subway line or connector without any idea of what service plan the agency want to use? If you spent my money doing that I'd fire you for incompetence and stupidity. The service plan might not be implemented as is without changes, but at least there was a coherent idea of exactlky what was intended. And anybody with a little sense could have guessed that this was one of the possibilities.
"The reason why the D-T connector was built was purely political,
to quiet the BS that billions had been wasted on "THE TUNNEL
TO NOWHERE"."
I wonder howe you don't get bored typing that...
Your post: "No one knows how to run a railroad anymore."
Why don't you be honest and say you are referring to Larry Reuter (MTA President) and Thomas Savage, Vice President of Subways. You just said that the NYC Subways aren't competently run. So isn't that basically an attack on them? Or are you referring to someone else, perhaps?
My post: "That includes you, by the way."
Your post: "There you go again with the personal attacks. "
Well, since you accuse MTA's management of incompetence without anything to back you up, is there anything wrong with my accusing you of it?
"So I'm not questioning so much whether the V plan made sense given
that the connector was built, as if it made sense to build the
connector at all? How much was spent on it....900 million? "
At the time MTA started the project, the agency fully intended to finish a new full-length project into Queens. The City went bankrupt and left the project hanging. The 63rd Street Extension cost $898 million (this included the price of the LIRR tunnel underneath it); the Connector cost $645 million, and the LIRR tunnel was extended at the same time.
If you're going to criticize a project's cost, you should try to do your homework first. There is a section on the 63rd Street project on this website, and I encourage you to read it.
"In fact, I have a great deal of
both theoretical and practical knowledge on railway signaling,
scheduling and operations. "
Then please put it to good use instead of using this board to rant and whine about my responses to your whining.
I agree, the only improvement would be to swap E and F north terminals, especially now, after the Airtrain is in service.
Arti
Actually, Larry's a good guy, and so was Dave Gunn 15 years ago.
But no one is really in charge. The great thing about the MTA
consolidation of the late 60s is it created a power structure
with sufficient accountability deflection.
The public hearing process is a negotiating session. However,
since the only leverage the riding public really has is bitching,
their bargaining position is weak. In the specific case of the
GG, crosstown riders got a bunch of minor concessions and
promises. The MTA got what they wanted most: a plan that would
force headcount through the 63 St tube.
Same thing with the fare hike, btw. Lots of public hearings, but
the MTA had no intention of giving in. Minor concessions like
deeper discounts, some of which are now going to be taken back?
The whole problem with car equipment shortage and not being able
to turn trains at Continental is self-made. I'm not even going
to get in to the whole field shunting saga.
That's a cop-out on your part. Yes, MTA is quite byzantine, but that doesn't mean no one is in charge. If you really want to visit an agency that has difficulty making decisions, examine SEPTA's governance.
"The public hearing process is a negotiating session. However,
since the only leverage the riding public really has is bitching,
their bargaining position is weak. "
First statement is true; the second is false. The MTA seeks to serve the highest number of people with service plans. The minority of people then must negotiate to get concessions if a particular service plan does not do exactly what they want, or forces them to give up a one-seat ride. Bitching is not the only means left to them, but it is the means chosen because it requires the least effort and thought. Some of us have proven that real progress can be made using public hearings as one tool among many in our toolkit.
"In the specific case of the
GG, crosstown riders got a bunch of minor concessions and
promises."
Your opinion of what really were major commitments to rebuild and improve stations (the concessions will cost as much as $75-$100 million when fully implemented) is not shared by a majority of riders, nor even a majority of G riders. And since MTA is keeping those promises so far, your complaint is even more nonsensical.
"The MTA got what they wanted most: a plan that would
force headcount through the 63 St tube. "
The MTA provided what 900,000 Queens Blvd. riders wanted. It is a good example of the agency responding positively to public demand.
I just had to make note of this as the only point from this paragraph that I disagree with. The V is just as useful as the R.
This is also a problem of poor scheduling. The "A" train's merge with the C at Canal is nearly flawless everyday I ride it.
It wouldn't as bad if the signal system didn't
grind everything to a near stand-still whenever that move is made.
Blind trips?! No one knows how to run a railroad anymore.
If you have two services converging, one with a straight iron
move, and one with a diverging, you give the lineup to the straight
move if both trains arrive at nearly the same time. Why? Because
the straight move clears the plant faster and doesn't require you
to knock down the approach signals. Well, I guess it's bound to
happen when the V line Super's desk is in the master tower :)
This I strongly agree with. Even when there is no "V" train anywhere near the junction, the trains still have a timer that slows them to a crawl. This is gross incompetence in my opinion. In fact, any timer on straight track that activates regardless of the blocks ahead is a poorly designed timer. The fact that trains have a balancing speed of almost 40mph is also pretty poor. This is why I eagerly await CBTC. No more timers, slow trains and unnessecary braking. That is if the MTA can implement it properly.
I hope that CBTC on the L line will actually use the 55mph the trains were designed for.
Let's see.
Before the V:
E: 12 TPH
F: 18 TPH
total: 30 TPH
After the V:
E: 15 TPH
F: 15 TPH
total: 30 TPH
30 TPH = 30 TPH.
The R did not have its service increased by the introduction of the V. R service levels did not improve until after the reopening of the Manhattan Bridge. And what the hell does the N have to do with Queens Boulevard?
The G and V run at the same frequency. In no way did the introduction of the V increase the throughput of the Queens Boulevard line. If anything, it has choked the Queens Plaza area. Before, E and F trains ran smoothly through, and G and R trains ran smoothly through; none of them crossed paths. Now, the V must cut in front of the E at Queens Plaza, and THREE additional merges have been created (50th/6th, Queens Plaza and 36th/N Blvd).
Source?
Signed what?
I dont care about the V train, PERIOD!
I LOVE the V train, PERIOD! The V train is the best thing since pneumatic switches.
I'm not going to argue the dumbass moves of yesteryear, but hooking up a parallel tunnel on 63rd between the SAME places on each end was ... well ... kinda vapid. The money sunk into that coulda probably built four blocks of Second Avenue subway. Heh.
But if 63rd's the hotspot because it connects with Blackwell's Island ... errrrr ... Welfare Island ... whoops, "ROOSEVELT Island ... well, maybe they can put a shuttle of arnines on 53rd street to ferry them back and forth between 57th and QBP. Uh, yeah ... that's the ticket. :-\
Seriously though, the *V* train is nothing more than a political butt-covering ... I'm sure folks on the crosstown would LIKE to get to QBP, and F riders would like their old headcount back (it was insane in the 70's, I *shudder* to think what riding that corridor outside a train cab must be like NOW ...
Why does nobody get this? The G is WORTHLESS to nearly all Queens Blvd passengers, who want to get to Manhattan. The number of people riding the Crosstown Line is not as many as are riding the Queens Blvd local. In the words of Captain James T. Kirk: "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one."
From 1976 to 1987, the F was local and the E was express at night.
Now lemme REALLY honk ya off ... I'se a Bronx boy ... only REASON why I ever WENT to Queens is because that's where the electronics jobs were! And whilst most of them were along the 7 (SONY, Panasonic and Excretone) A few defense contractors were on the RR line and a couple near Classon Ave ...
Now I'll grant that many things have changed since the 60's and 70's, but there's quite a bit of reverse commute and folks who have gigs along the crosstown. It at least deserves a *REAL* northern terminal, not the Sea Beach-like joke that was handed the "customers." Was it REALLY that hard to forsee adding a "side terminal" for the G when all that OTHER digging was being done? The incremental costs with so many sandhogs would have been negligable to bring the GG to QBP on a siding with one track or a stubbie and "over and up, whoopsie-daisy transfer.
REALLY vapid design if you ask me ... I don't argue in the LEAST the options to Manhattan, but it'd be like shutting down the Brighton and telling "customers" change for the Frankie and then take the A train to get downtown ... think about it ... they might as well just TRASH the G altogether and give them a fine 3rd avenue El bustitution.
Now HERE'S a Crusade for Felix Ortiz ... ring-ring ... ring-ring ... hello? (tap-tap) ... is this thing lit or did he fail the drug test to get a telephone connection? :)
No, I wouldn't. Rationality trumps provinciality. And I'm not just saying that; recall my support of curtailing off peak express service in favor of more locals.
but there's quite a bit of reverse commute and folks who have gigs along the crosstown.
But not as many as work in Manhattan. Again, "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one."
It at least deserves a *REAL* northern terminal, not the Sea Beach-like joke that was handed the "customers."
Court Square is better than some other terminals in the system (like Flatbush Avenue).
it REALLY that hard to forsee adding a "side terminal" for the G when all that OTHER digging was being done?
Yes. The digging was not done at Queens Plaza, and this would have added millions to the cost. This is not justified for a line that gets away with having 4 car trains.
but it'd be like shutting down the Brighton and telling "customers" change for the Frankie and then take the A train to get downtown
Poor analogy. The G never ran to Manhattan, the Brighton does. As far as Manhattan access is concerned, all the G passengers who used to transfer at QP have to do is use Court Square instead. So what if there's a longer walk? BFD. Worse things have happened, and there's even a moving walkway.
they might as well just TRASH the G altogether and give them a fine 3rd avenue El bustitution.
So you seriously believe a bus would make the ride and transfers EASIER for G riders? I thought the whole point of your argument was in favor of the G. I guess I was wrong.
Been awake for 34 hours non-stop and at a DECIDED disadvantage for anything even remotely approximating "ratrional" (customers of mine will be relieved to know I stopped trying to write code over 10 hours ago, but I'm all tied up in support email over some really silly questions that OTHER vendors don't answer) ... I have no REASON to defend the G other than my own braindead logic of "if you BUILD it, and they CAME, then don't stick a gun in their face" ... I see G riders getting the shaft owing to a grandiose "bad design" ... if they HAD the bucks to lay all those steel and cement tubes across the river, than I don't see a problem in putting in a damned sidebar if they were planning to cut back an established line.
And by YOUR logic with the "4 car" thingy, then does the Franklin shuttle (which requires "viagro" since they're underendowed at a paultry TWO cars) deserve to be discontinued? If so, WHERE do you live so I can call in a favor from Felix Ortiz on yer flank? :)
So ... I gotta plead brain damage, will probably lose track of this thread in an 18 hour "makeup sleep" but just wanted to say that Spock has given way to Machievelli ... "the needs of ENRON and "they tried to kill my daddy" outweigh the needs of EVERYBODY" ... such is the modern realities ... and while I'm a former Boarshevik myself, I've come to learn through GOVERNMENT employment, "I've got YOUR interests RIGHT HERE (shake-shake)" ... don't mind me, I'm a PROFESSIONAL cynic, kids don't try this at home ... and as always, no wagering."
But where I started in this (and I regret *EVERY* time I get involved in some stupid "where would I send the trains if I were King of the BMT" thread) is that they shouldn't have done 63rd (OR imploded 53rd, whatever) without giving an ESTABLISHED line a platform transfer to a "real" one ... moo.
Well, smoke detector's sounding - I know *I* am burnt to a qwisp. Heh.
It would still cost more money. All those tunnels across the river serve people. Such a "sidebar" would not.
And dammit, there's a TRANSFER at Court Square with damn moving walkways. People are so lazy.
And by YOUR logic with the "4 car" thingy, then does the Franklin shuttle...deserve to be discontinued?
How is this my logic? Where did I ever say the Crosstown line should be discontinued south of Court Square?
New York City ... where people whine if a an express goes by and there's no headlights on THEIR track ... or ... if 3 inches of snow falls, it's a cat's astrophe. Heh. STILL, that ain't right ... even the foresaken 3rd Avenue EL (Bronx ONLY) had a USEFUL terminal at both ends. Northern flank connected at Gunhill road to the 2 and 5, the southern end at 138th and 3rd connected to the 2 AGAIN ... but at least it CONNECTED ... Court Square is bullshirt ... hell ... after the rearrangement, one of the MAJOR trains doesn't even stop at QBP anymore if what I heard is right ... what improvement is THAT without an "all points transfer from here?"
Sorry ... residents of Webster Avenue like myself know a TA plot when we see one ... GG's GOING to be abandoned ... the cutoff to the north was the first step ... suddenly "why run the G to Smash-9 when we can just cut it back to Hoyt?" Third Avenue EL went there, so did the Anderson Avenue line ... while you may call it "old yurp", bear in mind that what is denigrated HERE as "vestigial" also implies that that which may be important to you could just as easily become vestigial ... I know you're not like some others at it, but the "ageist" qwap has honked me off ... see a film called "Wild In The Streets" if you get a chance as to this aspect - suddenly, one finds themselves on the wrong side of "ageism" ... that TOO, like subway routings, is a game I don't play. :)
Only reason I said that is that my comments do NOT come from nostalgia or other irrelevant mental expenses ... it comes from a "use it or lose it" one ... having SEEN the demise of a NUMBER of "former rides," I take EACH "setback" to line SERIOUSLY ... as do those who REMEMBER the Culver ...
So what? Let people whine.
STILL, that ain't right ... even the foresaken 3rd Avenue EL (Bronx ONLY) had a USEFUL terminal at both ends. Northern flank connected at Gunhill road to the 2 and 5, the southern end at 138th and 3rd connected to the 2 AGAIN ... but at least it CONNECTED ... Court Square is bullshirt
No it isn't. Court Square connects to the E and V, there's even a moving walkway. I've said this THREE FUCKING TIMES and you continue to ignore it, I guess it's because you're senile (you like ageism, so that comment should be all cool to you).
And the G (NOT GG! Get yourself to 1985 already) isn't getting abandoned. Unlike all of the other lines you mentioned, the GG is underground and can't be completely removed. Doing so would be an immense capital project.
I know you're not like some others at it, but the "ageist" qwap has honked me off
I don't give a flying fuck if it has honked you off. I guess rights for blacks and women also honks you. Don't like it? Go to hell.
No, it's not.
It's not so bad, it's not like you're at RonIsBS's level.
But dewd ... you take me WAY too seriously. I'm not about to. (grin)
Circumstantial Ad Hominem.
Believe it or not, I suggested upgrading the forums or switching to something else but that would probably have little impact.
But that was SPOCK's line!!!
My apologies to Mr. Spock.
Would have changed absolutely nothing. The plan was always to have both a connection to the bypass and to Queens Blvd. The latter was completed. The bypass is currently unworkable because of the lack of a Second Avenue subway. The plan was to have a 6th Avenue train serving one, and 2nd avenue the other.
but it [the G] suits its purpose and mine just fine.
Running to Court Square. Running to Forest Hills it's a nuisance.
OTOH, without any of the planned extensions of the Queens lines (Hillside, Archer, and whatever else), 60+ TPH may not be called for on Queens Boulevard.
I see the "GG" *differently* ... HERE, like the Franklin SHITTLE in the 70's, the line didn't jump, it was PUSHED ... and that ain't right. MY faves died of NATURAL causes ... the GG is being choked to death on a meathook. :(
I saw the footage of the 63rd connector's "UNDER the existing" construction. HOW hard would it have been to Y-connect as the GG swung towards QBP and put in a side platform. What is it? 30 extra feet across for ONE lousy track and a platform so the GG could berth at the dock AFTER the V was created?
Like I said, not into routing and where trains go - I got paid ANYWAY - heh. But there's NO excuse for sneakily killing the northern terminal of the GG ... the actual CROSSTOWN folks would go north or south depending on where they need to get to and change for a train going the other way anyway. Very few people got on at Classon to get to Union Tpk. :)
Nonsense. The G is still running and will continue to run, there are passengers using the line and there is justification to increase to 6 cars (I thought this was supposed to happen once the R-143s were all online?).
I saw the footage of the 63rd connector's "UNDER the existing" construction. HOW hard would it have been to Y-connect as the GG swung towards QBP and put in a side platform.
As I've said, none of this construction was at Queens Plaza. Spending millions on a line that was already lightly used would be the height of waste. This isn't some rural track in the middle of nowhere, it's a heavily used 24-hour subway line under a heavily trafficked intersection providing principal access to one of the few vehicular crossings over the East River. So adding another track and widening the tunnel would not be a simple proposition.
there's NO excuse for sneakily killing the northern terminal of the G
Yes there is. Queens Blvd passengers want service to Manhattan. Service to Greenpoint, Williamsburg, Fort Greene and Downtown Brooklyn is not nearly as useful to them. There are more QB passengers than Crosstown passengers. The QB passengers win.
Very few people got on at Classon to get to Union Tpk. :)
Which is why the current situation is not as dire as some people would have you believe.
Something important though - matters NOT to me whether I win or lose an argument ... I have my opinion and am legally entitled to blow it out both ends. :)
I still believe that the GG's gotten a bad deal here, that things COULD have been better designed, and like Unca Fred and his damned SeaBits, nobody GIVES a qwap about anything other than their *OWN* sensibilities and realites ... for ME, it's my "D train" ... notice how I didn't get all twisted when it ended up in BENSONHURST ... as long as it WORKS for those who use it, I'm FINE ...
When *I* worked the D train, I didn't GET to say "well, I'm downtown, I get off here" ... I was SENTENCED to the damned train from terminal to terminal ... and while the BMT is "quaint" for "fanning," I *DESPISED* the people I had to deal with and WORK for at Stillwell ... I was stuck on the futhamucka from end to end ... where I'm going in my ever-increasing fog is that one learned that WHEREVER command sent the damned train, you got PAID ... D train to QUEENS, no problem, D train to Eudlid, NO problem, woohoo! 10 HOURS on the clock today - EVERYBODY gonna get PAID! :)
I *ain't arguing with you ... but I wonder if you're completely missing my point ... I could give a rat's tunnel about what people headed west from Queens want - *I* am thinking of those who get ON AND OFF the train at the CROSSTOWN stops getting shafted on the north end of *THEIR* transfers ... I've NEVER suggested keeping the GG to Continental - but fer krimminy's sake, at least get their heap to QBP and back ... *I* see it as "all about options" ... but then again, I live upstate. My option is a ONCE a day bus I've never seen or NOTHING.
When I hear people whining about being inconvenienced by a half hour, I have to contemplate the folks here in MY town ... there is ONE bus, NOBODY'S EVER SEEN that damned thing and if it runs "hot" then the next bus is ... (drum roll please) ... TOMORROW ... and HAVE a nice day. :)
Like I said though, to Continental is stupid ... I AGREE with you there - but to QBP? Sorry, NECESSARY for those who LIVE on the line. The 3rd Avenue el went away because it was "redundant" ... could the "crosstown" be NEXT? That's MY fear ... and like I said, don't live there, don't *NEED* to care ... but I grasp its significance to those who use it ...
23rd Street Station
F U
Your pal,
Fred
Thanks again,
B Bonnici
There are 2 vid clips, one through a J Train RF window while entering Bwy Jct and the other is a W train entering QBP. Regrettably, Imagestation doesn't support streaming, so you'll have to download them. They're not that good, but I hope you enjoy them anyway.
Your pal,
Fred
NY Daily News:
http://www.nydailynews.com/03-20-2004/news/story/175450p-152776c.html
AirTrain not up to speed
The AirTrain hasn't exactly taken off like a jet.
In its first three months, the average daily ridership was about 15,000, according to the Port Authority.
About 5,000 of those riders are paying fares - down from the first month, when 7,000 paid to use the AirTrain.
The rest of the passengers are taking free trips within Kennedy Airport's network of parking lots and terminals.
PA spokesman Pasquale DiFulco said ridership was high in its first month because air travel peaks in December. He said the system should meet its goal of having 34,000 daily riders by the end of its first year.
There have been a few hitches. Twice passengers on trains wound up in a maintenance yard instead of a depot and the system was shut down briefly a few times due to weather-related problems.
Bombardier, which built and operates the 8-mile system, says its corrective steps include giving workers of the automated system additional training.
The AirTrain runs from the Long Island Rail Road's Jamaica station, which also has subway connections, to the airport. It also runs to the Howard Beach subway station.
Pete Donohue
Originally published on March 20, 2004
====================================================================
NY POST
http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/21344.htm
March 20, 2004 -- JFK-bound travelers are taking the train to the plane in record numbers.
The AirTrain has been a rousing success this year, attracting an average of 5,000 daily paid riders during its first three months of service, officials said yesterday.
The AirTrain set a record one-day high on March 12 with 7,119 riders - eclipsing the previous record of 6,977 set on Dec. 29.
The Port Authority-run light-rail link connects the Howard Beach subway station and Jamaica transit hub to Kennedy Airport.
PA spokesman Pasquale DiFulco said the numbers "bode well" for the agency to reach its projection of 11,000 daily paid riders.
"We're certainly on track to do so and look forward to seeing continued increased activity in 2004, particularly as we move into two of the heavier travel periods of the year," he said.
Clemente Lisi
7,000 daily riders might be okay right now considering that AirTrain is still only a few months old and airport traffic remains severely depressed. As time goes on, of course, ridership expectations will be higher.
The month of January 2004 at JFK was the highest January on record, with 2.67 million passengers. Ditto for December 2003 with 2.92 million passengers. Both represent 15% increases over the corresponding months of 12/00 and 1/01. We should expect 2004 to be a record year for JFK passengers.
At JFK, much of this is the "Jet Blue" effect, that you have noted in previous posts. It is worth noting, though, that total regional air traffic shows similar improving trends. For the year 2003, total passengers at JFK/EWR/LGA was still nearly 10% below the total for the year 2000. However, 12/03 was actually 3% higher than 12/00, and 1/04 was just 2% lower than 1/01 -- so regionally we're just about back at the passenger levels of late 2000 and early 2001.
CG
According to PA statistics, the number of paying passengers for AirTrain at both Jamaica and Howard Beach was 147,145 for January 2004. That comes to 4,747 per day. By comparison 92,818 passengers used the Howard Beach station in January 2003 and 153,690 passengers used the Howard Beach station in January 1998. The total volume of passengers was greatest in January 2004. However it was slightly less than the 2.5% compounded annual growth rate predicted to justify AirTrains's need vs. the no-build option presented in the DEIS.
At this point there are plenty of statistics to prove any assertion.
Which simply goes to show that it's too early to jump to any conclusions about AirTrain just yet.
I'm willing to wait. I would like to see the operating cost figures, however. Does all the new technology really decrease such costs?
There's more to be learned from the operating cost figures than from the revenue side. Of course, if somebody wants to build another one of these before the we know how many people would actually use it. :-)
It will take several more months until we find out whether non-rail services yield to airTrain consistently.
The MTA, by the way, only recently began linking to AirTrain on its website.
I guess you feel no shame over posting rhings you know to be false. You could not have made a habit of that in your Apollo days, because lives would have been lost as a result. Why do you feel the compulsion to do that now?
The comparison was for the number of people using EITHER Howard Beach and Jamaica in Jan 2004, the number of people using only Howard Beach in Jan 2003 and Jan 1998 - when Howard Beach was the only rail station available. That's the way the Port Authority presented these statistics and I have no problem with it.
These number showed that the Jan 2004 figures were greater than the Jan 2003 figures but less than the Jan 1998 figures.
I guess you feel no shame over posting rhings you know to be false.
I got these figures form the PA website 1998, 2003, and 2004. If you know them to be false, the fault should lie with Joe Seymour.
Are you really that compulsive?
So, I didn't present any false data.
pretending that the PA was required to meet it.
The only benchmark to which AirTrain should be held accountable should be the use projections in the DEIS. I would have thought the context of my remarks made that clear. I also stated that I'm willing to wait one year to make that final comparison.
That average daily target for the combined Howard Beach and Jamaica use is 10,985. This is the only audited use figure available. The total AirTrain use target is 33,880. Unfortunately, non-revenue counts are not audited. I decried this shortcoming in my AirTrain site visit commentary.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the Hudson Bergen Light attract 12 or 15K a day? If the Airtrain has about half as many passengers in this short time period, then it's on target as far as I'm concerned. The problem with the AirTrain is that there are a million bus and car services providing transport to the airlines.
I rode the service last week and took my bicycle so put me in the history books as been the first Airtrain rider to bring a bicycle. I surprised everyone as people were asking me what I intended to do with the bike once I got to the airport? The security didn't know what to do with me as there are no rules yet in excluding bikes from the Airtrain so they had to let me go.
Anyway. I'm now in the books folks.
That's the problem with not agreeing on what constitutes a "success" ahead of time. The DEIS projected 35K per day for AirTrain(after 1 year).
Suppose, AirTrain's funding were predicated on reaching such a level, then 7K per day does not look so good. Should the PA be forced to refund part of the $2 billion project cost because their proposal were so off base? The TA rerouted the F through 63rd St to avoid returning the fed's contribution to 63rd Street's construction. At least federal agency wanted a proposal to reach its quantitative objectives.
If this is the case, the DEIS is sadly mistaken on those initial projections. There is no way that Airtain will get 35K per day after one year unless the Port Authority bans all bus and taxie service to the airport. Furthermore, the actual paying customers must be less than 7K and the Port Authority better think about putting more turnstyles to capture those non-paying customers. The airtrain would have to look like the Lexington avenue express on a weekday as those trains were running fairly empty on the weekends.
It's very sad the DEIS made this projection. More likely it was done to get funding for the Airtrain and now they're going to have pie all over their face. A year from now, the critics will be jumping on the airtrain as a boondoggle that wasted taxpaper money. It's sad when you think we have to play these kind of tricks to get funding for rail but it's done and those anti-rail folks(American Dream Coalition) will just have to get over it and move on.
We have the Airtrain.
While that may be true that the buses are being cut back to Terminal Four ONLY, they are terminating in a portion of Airtrain that is STILL out of fare control. That is, it's a free zone; they can hop on Airtrain for free there, as long as they are going to either Long Term Parking, Federal Circle, or any of the other terminals in the airport...you will have the ridership, but you won't have much more profit because these riders are boarding the train at the free zones...that is, UNLESS they made the entire system AFC with turnstiles at ALL stations...and I don't think that will sit well with anyone...
Incognito
Airtrain to transit to downtown?
it goes literally from wall street to chinatown to LES then out. It would serve downtown well, especially with the new Fulton St. station layout.
forgive if this has been beaten already
The point of the Downtown-LIRR-JFK proposal is to materially improve the trip from Jamaica to Lower Manhattan, both in terms of comfort and travel time. Currently, the J and the E make the trip in about the same amount of time. To make the J materially faster, that line would require a very substantial infrastructure investment. For a whole bunch of reasons, nobody (except some railfans) thinks the J is worth that kind of investment.
(There's an unused middle track along part of the J line, but using that track doesn't make the trip much faster, because of merge constraints farther west.)
All options for Downtown-LIRR-JFK service that are presently being considered would use the Atlantic Avenue branch of the LIRR. The Cranberry and Montague tunnels have access to track plant that comes fairly close to the LIRR tracks, where a connection could be built. The third option is to build a brand new tunnel, which of course can go anywhere you want it to go. In all options, there would be a stop near Metrotech in Brooklyn, which is an important political selling point for the service. The JMZ cannot do this.
Some people believe that there just isn't a compelling reason to improve LIRR-JFK service from downtown over what's there already. This may be true. But I don't think there's anything reasonable you can do with the JMZ that's part of the answer.
It would serve downtown well, especially with the new Fulton St. station layout.
In fact, the JMZ's downtown stations are poorly placed, and the Fulton St station has an awkward design which even the new FSTC isn't going to entirely rectify. This is yet another reason why the JMZ isn't likely to be the preferred option.
You might be right about the first statement. But because a 3-track J inherently can't offer much of a benefit over what's there now, the fact that it can be done "cheaply" is beside the point.
What is this nonsense about a JFK connection !???
JFK is an International Airport, people leave on international trips from their homes on Long Island, and in any event would take so much bagage that they'd not use the subway or railroad anyway.
BUSINESS PEOPLE populate the downtown area, and they take BUSINESS trips to other cities, and those flights leave from LGA or Newark anyway.
Therefore, I put forward (yet again), My Solution, which of course is much better than ditzing with existing subway or railroad connections from the east.
Elias
Until you put it forward to people who actually decide such things, you're just wasting your time.
But when you do, you'll find out that your solution costs about 5 times as much as any of the others now being debated, which is why it'll never be built.
It also does five times as much and more.
1) LIRR Access to WTC
2) NJT Access to WTC
3) WTC Access to Newark Airport
4) WTC Access to LaGuardia Airport
5) Freight Access to Long Island and New England without having to go through Albany.
Elias
I believe it is being considered. That's what the Atlantic Avenue Branch connection to the Montigue Tunnel would probably be. The W would replace the M on the West End and 4th Avenue local. The trains from the Atlantic Ave branch would share the tunnel, and run up Nassau Street. Perhaps the J/Z would run in a loop, with bus transfer service on the lower level, LIRR and Airtrain transfer service via Brooklyn on the upper level.
AIRTRAIN The light rail system serving JFK from LIRR's Jamaica Station that replaces the free shuttle bus between the A train's Howard Beach station and airport terminals rolled in last December, past due (after a death-dealing accident during trial runs) and $400 million over budget. Now commuters riding the subway to JFK have to get aboard this automated rip-off and pay an additional $5 each way, with no discounts for seniors or the disabled. No matter that the 8.1-mile AirTrain tour takes as long or longer than the free shuttle bus ride, or that drop-off points are farther from terminal entrances and expose travelers to the elements. No matter that airport employees say AirTrain service is so erratic they wind up taking cabs between terminals. Who's the title-deserving New Yorker behind this insult to the world? Gov. George Pataki and Port Authority's Charles A. Gargano share the bulk of the blame, but when we called Port Authority to ask who's officially in charge, AirTrain spokesman Pasquale DiFulco couldn't be bothered to do his job and hung up on us. You win, dick.
That's a deliberate indication of bias if I ever saw one. Whatever you think of Airtrain, there never was a free shuttle bus between Jamaica and JFK. And AirTrain isn't 8 miles long if you don't count Jamaica.
He presented a slide show with some history of Coney Island and slides of the new station. His slides were stored in an Apple laptop which was connected to a projector. I had never seen that before.
I asked him how they were going to prevent pigeons from turning the train shed into a pigeon roost. He laughed and said that it was a major concern and in fact, they had a bird consultant on the project. Inside the shed, they will wire up all surfaces where pigeons might roost with a low voltage that will hopefully keep them away.
Mr. Kiss will be giving a tour of Stillwell Terminal at the end of April, but that tour is sold out.
Here's a link to his firm's website.
http://www.kisscathcart.com/kbio.html
Next Saturday, Brian Cudahy will be at the Museum giving a talk based on his new book about the history of the subway system.
For those interested in Coney Island, I just read this morning in a Courier Life local newspaper that a remake of Morris Englel's classic movie "Little Fugitive" will be filmed this summer in Red Hook and Coney Island. Here's a link to the filmmaker's website:
http://www.littlefugitive.com
They should consider doing that at 103-Corona Plaza. That's a real roost.
-Chris
Chuck
David
That's right. PATH PA's rule.
Oh Heck... I remember when the 32s were NEW!
Dad had always told me that the IND had the newest equipment (this in the days of the Arnines~ although he rememberd the Hornet and the Bluebirds fondly enough... they did not survive the war.)
But when I started riding the trains, and discovered the R27s and R30s on the BMT, I knew that things had changed. And then I saw a 32... either on the (Q) or the (N) (I forget which...) By then even the LoVs were gone from Manhattan Service, but I found some in the Bronx on the Third Avenue Line. I thought those were the most interesting of train sets. Then there were the Standards on the 14th Street Subway, but I finally found the OLDEST of the Living Old when I rode the Myrtle Avenue Line, with WOODEN cars, and LEATHER straps!
Elias
A) the 600, 900 & 1200 series?(before 1950)
B) the 1300 series?(1950-1958)
C) the 1600 series?(1958-1969).
I also rode on the Third Avenue El (Manhattan) but I can only remember that because I was *told* that it happend. I *do* remember having some balloons with me on an el train, so that must have been the trip.
Elias
You got Arnines when they were almost new.
You got some of the 38s when they were new.
I remember new Slant 40s on the (F).
The first 44s that I saw were on the (F).
Whats the deal with new trains anyway... the Arnines were faster,
and they looked like REAL subway trains!
And the conductos got to stand between the cars where they belonged!
: ) Elias
In this world of big babies, every neighborhood feels they're being shafted when the TA puts new equipment on lines other than thiers.
Ok, cool, leave the trains equipped with railfan windows for the railfans. You can have the new, blind trains, WE DON'T WANT THEM.
I *LOVED* the smell of wet conductor in the morning - it smells like VICTORY (and no worries about the little book of "sayings of the chairman" neither). Gimme caps and triggers (or a bat handle) ANY day. :)
That was the BMT. Even if it *was* better (and I'll not concede the point) if the BMT was doining then you can bet your (fill in the blank) that Hylan and the IND would *NOT* do it that way!
Besides, as a kid, I'd sneak out there too. It was great fun to ride between the cars that way.
: ) Elias
LOL, if they had to do that today 2/3rds of them would quit!
Peace,
ANDEE
I use JFK minimum once a month for travel. The E is a direct shot with very few stops along Qns Blvd; the A, even when express, is a zigzag, up-down route that seems to take forever-- correction, it DOES take forever -- and is decidedly creepy after the sun sets.
I was the happiest person on earth when the AirTrain started, first, because I am free from that awful shuttle bus that was the worst part of my trip. (Typically, deboarding to Howard platform was an hour.) But, often arriving back in town late at night, I am now also free of the A train thrill ride through tough areas. At Jamaica, I have choice, choice! Swipe my way into the E or, if I'm really beat, ride in late night luxury for 4 and change on LIRR. Wonderful! I can lead a rich, satisfying and rewarding life without ever using Howard Beach again. Unless I need a Far Rock subfan goose.
Tony
I'm just speculating, that's all. The E is almost always a nice ride, but it is the long away around to the airport and I have been on an E train on a few occasions which inched its way across Northern Blvd and Queens Blvd. even on the express track. That was excrutiating.
People probably get on what comes first and save the waiting for later.
But then again, at this point, I'm just cynical. But you really do want to limit the options and make it simplistic.
I'm wondering what's more popular, the A, E or LIRR. I would think people would automatically shoot for something like an LIRR train instead of taking a subway in unfamiliar terrortory.
Moreover, if you are unfamiliar with the system and look at a subway map, it looks as if the E is a much longer route.
Click Here and Read
Then read the 4 or 5 responses to this post and see how some of the comment were.
Afterward post your thoughts because I would be interested in what you think.
>My opinion? WHO CARES? Think about it. That only means less crowding for you! Let them use the (A). Why would you want more people to pack on your E?
>BUT, from a logical perspecive, you are correct. It would be a much nicer ride via the E AND, your getting more 'bang for your buck' with the $5 AirTrain (longer trip).
>>OR.....take the (4)(5)(6)/MNRR to 125th St --> M60 to LGA, but what the hell.
-Chris
If we're talking about illegal activities here, than the operative term would be "more secure," not "safer," and the only people qualified to say for certain whether the Queens Boulevard Line is more secure than the Fulton Street Line would be NYPD's crime statistics people.
David
OH Wait, I din't use the AirTrain either.
Come to think of it I haven't even been to JFK since 1978!
Now a days, I fly into ABE when I come east, and take MARTZ into the city.
: ) Elias
Well you must be the only one. Usage of that airport has been spiraling down for years. And Martz sucks, they take too long to get to NYC. Here's a tip: take one of the two daily GREYHOUND buses between Scranton and NYC. Those buses do the trip, nonstop, in 2 hours flat, as compared to most Martz runs of 2 hours 45 minutes.
But How would I get to Scranton???
My parents meet me at ABE.
And they live just about one mile from the Stroudsburg Park and Ride.
I think the trip is a little less than an hour from there, but they have many more busses than just two a day.
: ) Elias
Actually, I *never* lived in PA. I was born in NYC, grew up (if you can call it that) on Long Island, and moved to North Dakota the same year my parents moved to PA.
The LIRR lost two paying customers on the same day, but they seem to have surviced the trauma ok.
They might have named it LVI on the sign out front, but it is still ABE, which is what your baggage check will say on it, and is the letters that you will use if you order tickets on lion. Hell Chicago is called ORD, and where the heck did *that* name come from? JFK used to be IDL, so the call letters *can* change, but at ABE it has not.
Like I say, I fly into ABE, but my parents are in East Stroudsburg. The MARTZ bus stops right there.
But I tell you what! As soon as they fix the Lacakwanna Cutoff, riding on a bus is history. (Indeed, that is the ONLY bus I have ridden on in as many years as I can remember.
Elias
Furthermore, IDL has been reused (Indianola, MS).
Years and years ago it was known as Orchard Field.
Here's wha I am comparing:
LIRR ROUTE:
4/5 to 59 St
N/W to Queensboro Plaza
7 to 61 St/Woodside
LIRR to Jamaica and Points East
QB ROUTE:
6 to 51 St
E to Jamaica/Sutphin
REALIZING-I'M-GOING-TO-MISS-MY-LIRR-TRAIN-WHEN-I-GET-TO-59 ROUTE
4/5 to 59 St
Either an N or W doesn't come for a while and I believe my chances of making it to 61/Woodside in time are slim to none
R to Queens Plaza
E to Sutphin
From a standing start LIRR is much faster to Sutphin than the E. It's not even close. The post you were referring to is correct.
"LIRR ROUTE:
4/5 to 59 St
N/W to Queensboro Plaza
7 to 61 St/Woodside
LIRR to Jamaica and Points East "
Why go through all that? For one thing, why aren't you using the 4/5 to reach 42nd Street to catch the 7 directly? All that waiting time between trains eats up the m,arginal adantage you're getting from the 60 Street tube.
I admit I have never tried to compare the following:
1) E from 53/Lex to Penn station; LIRR to Jamaica
2) E from 53/Lex to Sutphin (Jamaica Station).
I suppose the retrograde travel time plus waiting time for the LIRR train would cancel the LIRR's faster travel time. But as I said, I never tried it.
Seriously though, rather than the "E" or the "A", the perfect way to get to Airtrain is by LIRR.
Me, if I were going from Manhattan to JFK (not that I ever see that happening) I would definitely take a cab.
Party pooper.
The J subway is the most direct shot from the financial district, City Hall etc.
* nearest thing in public timetables to Sutphin - Fulton
You do have to walk futher south to catch the A.
Maybe if you stop thinking with your "fear" and start using common sense, you would realize that maybe taking the "E" is not as convenient for these people as it is for you. Not everybody who is going to JFK begin their journey at either Mid-town Manhattan, or any other Upper part of Manhattan. Maybe some passengers begin their journey from lower Manhattan, or even Brooklyn perhaps. For those passengers, it would be absolutely ridiculous to travel northbound, then east, then southeast, get off of the "E" and grab the Airtrain then travel south again.
For these passengers, the "A" is a straight shot east, as well as the Airtrain they would have to transfer to. Hell even that Airtrain route is shorter than the Airtrain that connect them with the "E". For these passengers, the "A" train would have them arrive at JFK in half the time as taking the "E".
Furthermore, you don't even mention the "J" which is probably more convenient to passenger in the areas that it serves.
BUT, interesting update, I happened to be at West 4th this afternoon (Sunday, 3/21) where, oddly, new column signage directs "JFK passengers" to the E to Sutphin. Now, I would have thought that a downtown location, such as alluded to in the previous post, might warrant an A over E choice. But even the MTA seems to think otherwise. Any decade now, those tourist maps that visitors carry around might also point this out-- or at least mention that there are options...
Key: Station Name (time to Jamaica Center (Sutphin is less) / time to Howard Beach)
42 PABT (??/52)
34 Penn (37/??)
W4 (43/45)
Chambers (48/41)
The only station served by both the A and E trains which should have signs directing JFK passengers to the A is Chambers St. Even then, with the Rockaway A being much less frequent than the E and the long walk from the E platform to the A platform, if your entrance is nearer the E train, you may as well ride it.
Also, if you read the original thread he's ONLY refering to passengers from Midtown. If they are alreadyusing the A, then they can easily get on the E on the other side. Which is indeed much quicker. From 42nd st, by the time they get to the cranberry tunnel they would probally be up to Roosevelt. Then a 5 min trip to 71st Continental, followed by 3 more stops to Parsons.
Please tell me what sense would it make if a passenger is already on an "A" (especially the one that connects to the Airtrain) to get off at 42nd St and WITH LUGGAGE as you point out, go up stairs, then walk anywhere from a half a block to 2 blocks (only the last staircase on the sb platform you can cross directly to the nb platform-and I guarantee you, the typical passenger does not know this), then walk down a flight of stairs and wait for the next "E", because 8 out of 10 times, you probably missed one while walking those blocks to get to the nb platform. By the time you do all of this, the "A" will already be in Downtown Brooklyn. Then it's only 20 minutes to Howard Beach. The last time I rode the "E", it took more than 20 minutes to reach Sutphin Blvd from 42nd St.
I was talking about the most direct route to JFK-that is why I said only one direct transfer from the "J" to the "E".
As a transit minded "tourist", If i got off using airtran, I want a tech car or a R-32 or other oldie. :)
Another aspect:
Would you rather pay $7 or $2? People would rather go through the free shuttle bus instead of paying more money to get to a destination.
The last thing: I have taken the E during rush hour and, even though it is reliable (at some points) with coming every 5 minutes or so, it is so overcrowded into Queens during rush hour; how do you fit everything onto that train when you can only fit a person into the car?
THERE IS NO FREE SHUTTLE BUS!
Isn't there still a bus available at no extra charge?
Take the A to Lefferts and change for a Q10 signed "JFK". There is no extra charge, since either you have an unlimited Metrocard, or else you get a free transfer from the subway. Are you saying there is no such bus any more? (I truly don't know; haven't been there lately).
Plus I was responding to a person who claimed that people used HOWARD BEACH to avoid paying $5. No mention of Lefferts was made.
You are assuming that absolute price is the only important factor. Clearly that is not the case. Since consumers want something else (convenience, climate control, reliable service) and are willing to pay for it, your model does not hold up well.
What is the elasticity of demand for AirTrain since opening day? What will it look like after one year of operating? You can measure it.
"Do you want to go through Queens and then walk upstairs and take the AirTrain?"
A lot of people do. And arrivals from Long Island have to go through Queens anyway.
"People want simplicity so one train to a shuttle bus is good enough."
Since the A train is only one route which does not serve enough neighborhoods, clearly that statement is false.
I wound up missing the 3:15 train, and wound up on the 3:45 RiverLINE train. That train was operating at crush load (whoever decided to run one-car trains should be shot!) My train was a 2-car train, s-3502-3514-n, and I looked out the railfan window (it was a clear partition separating the driver's area from the main cabin.) I saw a few strange sights, such as a black cat crossing the rails, a bicyclist running in front of the train (are you a eh, Yahoo?) and a woman walking by the train on Broad Street. Everyone was surprised and laughing, I saw some trains going the other way, and they probably had to leave people behind! There was a section that reminded me of the Houston light rail, and probably explains why the line was single tracked through part of its run.
I got off at the Walter Rand Transportation Center, and went down and waited for the PATCO train to Lindenwold. This line was fast, and I was impressed with its reverse cab system (operator's area on the left of the car, with the other side open (and I sat there, and called one of my female friends, a non-SubTalker, non-transit fan, while on PATCO in Camden). However, this was VERY sobering (Camden really needs revitalization in the worst way). Upon getting to Lindenwold, I then reversed direction and rode the PATCO into Philly. I enjoyed best the ride from Broadway to Lindenwold, with a SUPER FAST two-car train, n-274-273-s, and the ride over the Benjamin Franklin Bridge.
I got off at 12-13 Streets, and walked a block over to Broad Street. Walnut-Locust looked horrible inside (it was undergoing a desperately needed renovation, IMO.) I went southbound and rode to Pattison-Sports Entertainment Complex, and exited to take some final pictures of the Veterans Stadium before she comes down tomorrow morning!
I then got back in the subway and rode it to City Hall, because I had to get back to NYC. Suburban Station was terrible and deserted, and someone ripped me off of a ticket! (The conductor on the R7 was understanding though.)
I then went home on another NJT Arrow, where at Edison, some young people got on, and sang HAPPY B'DAY to one of them, and then wondered I was doing with an endocrinology text (I am a grad student in biology), and then the subway and bus home.
I think I want to do this again!
What I rode:
5008 RTS B82
8205 R143 L
4126 R38 A
1523 Arrow IIIB NJT NEC S/B
3502 BOM light rail RiverLINE
273 Vickers PATCO
549 Kawasaki Broad Street Line S/B
572 Kawasaki Broad Street Line N/B
411 Silverliner R7
1495 Arrow IIIB NJT NEC N/B
1569 R62 #3
7165 R143 #4
5224 B83
Some questions:
When was Franklin Square closed? (It looks like a former SEPTA station to me.)
Who built cars such as 697 on the Broad Street line?
Aside from no center door on the SEPTA Silverliners, what is the difference (aside from cosmetic ones) between Silverliners and Arrow cars?
Thanks in advance.
Pictures coming later.
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
Today at patco's broadway station(transportation center)these girls said to there friend who was leaving that there not waiting for a train. So I guess its either 2 things. 1 is waiting for a friend whos on another train. Or 2 being money makers in the "field". I would go with 2.
But as for the station again, it was closed because of too much bad activity.
They have standard faverly pantographs, they do not have AC traction (which was an upgrade for the Arrow's BTW), PRR style cab signals, non-flippable seats, higher MAS, they were built about 4-8 years earlier, no LED destination signs, and some others I am sure.
And you know what, I remember who you are now. Your the one who was sitting in the row in front of me on the riverline. I was the one who told you how many stops it was to the station, etc...
Anyways, I'll be posting the photos in a sec. Hope you like them, as well as everybody else.
Franklin Square was also closed for many years before it was opened briefly in 1976 to accommodate the crowds that chose not to appear.
Sean@Temple
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
And what really got me tick'ed yesterday was the fact that most of the stations only had 1 ticket machine, yeah some had 2 but most had 1.
And what is the Tweed Center anyways? When I got off I went there and most of it was closed, spite a open area to some gym looking thing. I thought it was a mall at first. :/
Oh and the box car photos were taken down past the end of the line, behind a fence. I didnt check the one stray box car all the way down, but it looked as if it wasnt even on a rail.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
This link will give you visuals of Dean St.
I could tell you that Dean St and the Franklin shuttle before it was rebuilt was an absolute mess. It still kept the deferred maintenance look well into the 90's and it was to the point where the MTA was ready to close it down permanently. Then the community got involved and won the battle which in turn led to the MTA to rebuild the line to beautiful glory :-). Dean St had dillapidated platforms, was full of graffiti, squatters & hardly registered any fares and this was on a daily basis until it closed down permanently in 1996. You could of seen it until 1998.
The R68's initially ran on the FS as early as 1988, but disappeared for a few years as the R32's took over
Interesting, I didn't know that. Mark's photo was taken after mine apparently. The last time I was on the "old" shuttle, was the day I had taken that photo.
Now thats brave. I wouldnt of got off there if you paid me.
--Mark
Acela
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Please let me know what you guys/girls think.
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
Subtalk is your proverbial sausage party.
http://philadelphia.phillies.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/multimedia/index.jsp?c_id=phi
I had no emotional attachment to the Vet; my attachment was to Shibe Park, later named Connie Mack Stadium.
It was still neat to watch the implosion on TV and then hear it for real.
I'm sure that the terrorists thought it looked cool too. People died in that, so there is nothing that you can possibly ignore.
Would you like to have been in it along with the 6K who died in it also? After reading that, I think you should have.
What a disgusting comment.
I'm sure they did. I'm sure the terrorists breathed oxygen. OH NO! You breathe oxygen too! You have something in common with a terrorist! THE HORROR!
People died in that, so there is nothing that you can possibly ignore.
Yes I can. Just because people die some way doesn't mean that everything associated with that is automatically cause for mourning. Your kind of attitude is the kind that would prevent there from ever being any new buildings on the WTC site.
Guns kill people, doesn't mean I can't think that they're cool.
Would you like to have been in it along with the 6K who died in it also?
First, it was 2,750. Secondly, if I was, I wouldn't be able to see it, would I? But no, I don't want to die and I don't want people to die, however if I kowtow to the perpetual mourning crowd, it isn't bringing anyone back, so mourning is useless.
All the other things are sorta hard to ignore. It's like the old joke, "Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?"
Big shot s.c.a. types want new stadiums so they can entertain business contacts in the luxury boxes. They convince political leaders that fancy new stadiums are good for a city's prestige (doubtful) and contribute to its economic growth (extremely doubtful). Transit projects have a far higher cost-benefit payback but just aren't as glamorous.
Thank goodness! That's a relief.
I was hoping the video would be on the Phillies website but as of now it doesn't seem to be on there.
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/04/05/cf.crossfire/
Incognito
This is way too easy!
http://www.nj.com/business/ledger/index.ssf?/base/business-6/1079855426325040.xml
http://www.wiseelephant.com
This company started a series of pamphlets called "Subway Lit" which they gave out to subway riders in Brooklyn & Manhattan on March 9th & 10th. The first issue had a story about two men in Brooklyn who encountered Elvis Presley.
http://subwaylit.com/
The next issue of Subway Lit will be distributed in Brooklyn on March 23 at 8 a.m. at 7th Ave(F) and Carroll Street(F). On March 24 at 8 a.m. at 7th Ave(B/Q) and Bedford Ave(L).
It appears that they are targeting the artist community.
For an article about Wiselephant's work:
http://orange.notfrisco2.com/archives/004043.html
Chuck
Chuck Greene
Mark
Mark
1) Citizens Bank Ballpark
2) Wachovia Center
3) Wachovia Spectrum
4) Lincoln Financial Field
Chuck
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
Chuck
Sorry for the OT post.
Chuck Greene
you lazy philadelphians make me sick. have another 25 cent pretzel.
2]Lincoln Financial Field or what the locals call it "The Linc".
3]It's the only way many sports teams can survive. If they don't get new stadiums, they move to a city that will give it to them. Losing a pro team can be a HUGE civic blow to a city, in most places, except LA, in which the citizens dont give a flying f#$k.
As far as Local trains go, no big deal. Most passengers detrain at Oregon anyway. Pattison rarely sees much use as it is, yet still, trains are run down there. So I doubt a three-block walk to the new stadiums is going to cause any dents in ridership.
Besides that, the Wachovia Spectrum and Wachovia Center are ON Broad Street, and at that, the Spectrum is at Broad & Pattison, opposite the Vet... the Center is at Broad & Terminal, one block south... so if there's events at the Spectrum, a Sixers or Flyers game, nothing new to the crowd... People are already used to taking the subway and walking there, and are getting used to it for the Linc... what's the big difference in taking that walk on the OTHER side of Pattison Avenue to reach CBP?
When speaking about the 75' cars, historically, the Concourse Fleet was originally 2500 - 2599 plus all 200 R-68As. Some time in 1995 or 1996 Coney Island got the R-68As and Concourse had 300 R-68s from 2500 to 2799. Since then the fleets fluctuated between 308 cars and 232 cars depending on the beeds of service. Today, the fleet is 276 cars - the same as it was before the Manhattan bridge flip.
Robert
Robert
The power poles like a row of so many crosses
passing us by as we drive.
A quiet morning
A gentle dawn's light.
The boy would have survived
if he had been wearing his seatbelt.
Or perhaps if he had not been to the bar in the first place.
He turned 22 only a few days ago,
This is a place where you know everybody by name,
you know their families and their stories, and
this is not the first time that this boy rolled his truck
into the ditch...
But it will be the last time.
Up and about in the early morning, Elias
1) What changes do you made in the first hours after (rerouting/
terminating of trains to keep the subway running)
2) What would you run when the switches are fixed for one route.
(Trains can run over it)
Signals still out of order and can't change to green. Trains can key-by
and have to run on sight till the signals behind QP/63 connect. In this
area it is not possible to ID the current position of train in the
tower/TCC.
Immediatly After
V will be suspended
F between Avenue X and 21st Queensbridge
E will run between 51st Street and Lex and World Trade Center
R will operate to 21st Queensbridge
N will Operate Normal and W as well, Q will operate as normal
G will go back to Court Square
In Queens
All Trains will run Local from Roosevelt Avenue to 179 Street or Jamaica Center. As many as possible
Increase 7 Service Drastically, no peak direction express service to increase the anticipated crowing to the 74 Street Station.
Run Shuttle Busses Between 51st Street and all stops to Roosevelt Avenue - As Many Artics As Humanly Possible.
After 1 switch can fixed, I would make sure it's the express tracks that serve 53rd Street. Then Operate the F and E Express to their respective Terminals, but doubling the amount of trains, to take on the increased capacity. The R and a shuttle or V will operate to 21st Queensbridge, from their respective terminals, to Queens Plaza to catch an F or E train or take another Shuttle Bus that will make the Local R,G,V stops along the way between Queens Plaza and Roosevelt Avenue then E and F trains will run local after. Trains in the affected vicinity will operate at a restricted speed of 5 mph while workers in the tunnel will operate as human signals holding trains and making sure everything proceeds as smoothly as possible. the G will continue to run to Court Square.
7 increased service
shuttle buses from 21st QueensBridge and 23rd Ely making all stops to Roosevelt Ave
until switches are fixed
Take over control from Queens Plaza, and run service pre-12/16/01.
Ha, you thought that if the Queensboro Master was gone, everything was gone? :)
and reroute lines (or terminate them before) via QP/63 St.
Since some combinations are dangerous (*) although running the trains
on sight and some are impossible (XTown or 60 St - not both), but all
possible, the question is what ist the best service?
(* using the crossovers at QP in both directions f.e. 53-local/60-express)
Shuttle bus between 21st St and 23rd-Ely, and all E, F, and R trains skip Queens Plaza until smoke condition clears. Then shuttle bus will run to Queens Plaza.
Any southbound V trains in service on Queens Blvd run as R trains, terminating at Canal St, layup at City Hall LL, then run light to Lexington/63rd to join existing V service. Any northbound V trains on Queens Blvd run normal, then go to Jamaica Yard. Any V trains on 53rd Street run express to 179 St, then run light to Jamaica Yard
1. Are the 42nd Street and TImes Square Shuttle the same thing?
2. What subway cars serve that route?
3. What subway cars serve the franklin avenue shuttle?
Chuck
This line is served by R62's (but I'm not too keen on the differences between R62's and R62A's).
The Franklin Avenue shuttle is served by modified 2-car sets of either R68's or R68A's. They don't have rollsigns, just signs bolted into place, since they will never likely see service elsewhere in the system.
No R68A's on the Franklin shuttle
It probably sounded misleading to some. I should of said There are no R68A's on the shuttle
2) Is the Late Night Dyre Ave Shuttle labeled "5" or "S" and what cars are used?
3) The timetables for the 3 line indicate that there are indeed shuttles that run from 148th to 135th, though they only last while the transition is being made back to the full length 3 line in the morning. Are these labeled "3" or "S" and is it R62s/R62As that are used?
The car assignments are a sure thing. I'm not so sure about the indications.
Have you paid your 2004 dues yet?
Yes that's right, folks, it's almost the end of March, and if you haven't paid yet your dues are now almost three months overdue. So please, send your check today and relieve your museum of the expense of sending you a renewal notice. And if for some reason you have decided not to renew your membership (hopefully none of you are in this category, but I know that once in a while it happens), please send a postcard or an email to the museum letting them know.
Your museum needs you... don't let them down.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Not really...
Will these images be made available / offered to Tom Scannello for the Rockaway Beach Branch virtual tour on his oldnyc.com website ?
If you read the Rock Line material at OldNYC.com, you will find my childhood recollections of the Rock. I went to elementary school in Forest Hills from 1970 to 1978, and the Rock line ran through the wooded areas right behind the school. Spent many a recess walking those old tracks - not as overgrown then as now.
Look at the wasted steel... I'm sure that could have been recovered and put to good use.
I was up on the trestle a few times that year. I remember climbing down to the sidewalk from the northwest abutment, or corner, at dusk.
I last walked under the Fleet Street trestle the last Friday in December, 2000. I was en route to a friend in Rego Park to give him a gift : a copy of "Change At Ozone Park" : Herbert George's excellent book about the Rockaway Beach Branch.
I remember the ballpark well, and the woods just to its north. Later in 1985 I found a shortcut across the Rockaway right-of-way, I think, from the dead end of Dartmouth, just west of Thornton, in Forest Hills, to the dead end of Dieterle Crescent in Rego Park.
Would you please provide a link to Jeff Saltzman's photo tour, if it's on line ?
I wonder if kids still ride dirt bikes on the right of way between the
Fleet Street ball field and White Pot Junction.
It also has links to many of his other great websites, such as "Boulevard of Death" (Queens Blvd.), Jeff's NYC Parkways and Expressways, Jeff the Street Light Nut, etc. Enjoy!
Regards,
Dave
"Soitenly" reminds me of "Soy Vay" sauce.
"If you're from NYC - even if you're Catholic - you're Jewish !"
- Lenny Bruce
1926-1966
Ever eat at Knish Knosh on Queens Blvd. near 67th Road in Forest Hills ? I went there once in 1985 or 1986.
I take it "Hock Me A China" is based on "hocken a cheinik" (bang on a tea kettle) ?
Maybe we should go into business with Leo Rosten and found or join a Preservation of Yiddish Foundation. I am told the knowledge of Yiddish is dying out among younger people.
I had a Jewish boss in October 1979, and when the pope's motorcade went down Broadway past Duane Street we could see it from our office windows. In observance, my boss shouted, "Oy! Oy! Here comes Super Goy !" and put on a silver yarmulkeh to match the pope's white skullcap, before running to the window to observe.
Hoch me a cheinik may mean "bang on a tea kettle" literally, but it's actually used to say "don't bother me, in don't hoch me a cheinik" or "hoch me nicht." I just got what litle Yiddish has trickled down to me through the generations.
I have been told that the knowledge of Yiddish is dying out among people our age, and younger. Traurig, nicht wahr ? Sad, because Yiddish is so expressive, and hence, so much fun.
There's an opera company in Bklyn that does Gilbert and Sullivan operas in Yiddish and English. The aria "Little Buttercup" from "HMS Pinafore" in Yiddish mentions knishes. Elsewhere, "Titwillow" is translated "Oy vey iz mir". I heard them on WNYC FM, Passover 1996.
Only in a few places where there are no stations, such as where lines share the same tracks for a short distance.
For a typical stretch of line with stations, there is a practical limit of about 25 TPH, depending on dwell times.
Anyhow, at the HB Airtrain station was a supervisor, so I inquired about why the busses didn't hold for connections with the train as they were there to provide continuing service for customers during the GO. The supervisor told me they are scheduled to leave about 2 minutes before the train arrives, and they run every 8 minutes. Hmmm... funny how the bus I missed left at 1:45am and the next one came at 2:05am... I guess in TA math that's 8 minutes. A G2 will be going in about this one.
What really had me puzzled as to WHY they have it scheduled so that at late night the bus does not leave AFTER the train arrives. I guess the TA wishes to lengthen your waiting time since you're already being inconvenienced by having to get off the train in the first place.
Now for the fun part... I had to get to the street. The clerk at HB insisted I had to swipe my card, paying $5.00 to exit the station, even though the only way through after getting off of the shuttle bus is through the station. Even after showing her my GO transfer she insisted, I ended up just jumping the turnstyle.
So, for those who follow directions, the trip home would have consisted of:
1. Take A train to Rockaway Blvd.
2. See bus pull off as the train lets out.
3. Wait 20 minutes, then get an extended tour of lot.
4. Pay $5.00 for just walking through a station that you're forced to use.
Gotta say, TA GO planning is getting much better. Makes me proud to work for such an organization. :)
Yeah but they don't mention this.
So due to the GO residents should have to pay to get home, yet AirTrain riders ride free? That's bunk.
Already done it this way, twice.
It does seem as if there has been some recent construction or area remodeling however.
"Proff"?
Construction? Yes, there's a new rail line.
PROFF is an old SubTalkism.
Da Hui
Passengers coming off of AirTrain were supposed to pass through AirTrain and subway fare control, paying $7 and picking up GO transfers. Then they were to proceed down to the Manhattan-bound platform and exit to the parking lot for the bus. The vast majority of passengers coming off of AirTrain didn't know any better.
Going the other way, most passengers went straight up to AirTrain for free.
If you had entered the subway platform as you were "supposed" to, you would have been able to exit for free without jumping.
Heading down from the A, four consecutive shuttle buses were bound for the Rockaways. Fearing assassination on the spot, the dispatcher wisely turned the third one (signed for Lefferts, so the signage was wrong in either case) into a Howard Beach bus.
There was some mass confusion yesturday at Rockaway Blvd as not all travellers were picking up GO transfers. I saw one guy who treatened the poor S/A in Russian because he didn't get a transfer but swore he paid.
Were you away from home for 15 hours straight? How could 2:30am Sunday have been your first encounter with the shuttle bus?
Late nite construction:
"Tunnel Vision":
Additionally, WMATA has been running announcements reiterating some of their existing policy, and reminding customers to (A) make sure they take all their personal belongings with them, and (B) report any abandoned items to transit police or another uniformed Metro employee. Plus I saw a lot more WMATA employees wearing the fluorescent yellow vests than usual.
I am just amazed that they would close the restrooms. Sure, we don't want someone setting a bomb in there, but considering that you have to ask the station manager before using the restroom anyway, it seems somewhat excessive.
This change did not affect the self-cleaning restroom at Huntington, as you might imagine. It was in service, and fine as ever.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Oh well, looks like the terrorists will just have to find another place for their bombs...like the crowded trains and platforms.
Mark
p.s.--I like your form os sarcasm, I totally agree
Actually the restrooms in WMATA metrorail stations were never intended for public use so I have no trouble with them being closed to the general public.
There is a flaw in your statement however, the restroom in many of the stations are located near critical mechanical, train control and electrical support equipment. The bad guy are more interested killing people then destroying infrastructure.
John
I have a list of most, if not all, of my images (Joe Testagrosse collection). I've also added some corrections in locations. I double-checked my original prints which were made into slides, to insure that they were indeed my shots.
It's quite a lengthy list and I'm wondering how I can get it to you. Could you e-mail me and give me either your e-mail or postal address, or let me know if you have another suggestion for getting this list to you.
Harry Pinsker
Leave Feedback
I snapped photos as 2785 exited Elmwood Depot and pulled out onto Elmwood Ave, lining up behind Kawasaki 9079 to turn onto Island Ave.
I photographed 2785 approaching Lindbergh Blvd at speed, then joined the paying customers at a photo stop.
another photo stop shot
I then photographed 2785 running for Island Ave loop and at the loop.
I then called it a morning as 2785 sped off in the Island Ave median back toward Elmwood Ave.
Chuck Greene
>>>"Subtalkers CI Peter"<<< NOT, that was NJCoastExpress or
as we call him at Branford, "Peter The Pole". And thanks for
the photos. Good seeing you.
8 > ) ~ Sparky
I thought we were calling him "Mr. Line Extender" nowadays :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Chuck Greene
Yes it is, CI Peter is "On The Juice".
8 > ) ~ Sparky
The ride in the Island Ave median is worth the trip.
Would the IRT kill the BMT or the IND? Which company would make the most profit???
The BMT's strongest market is Brooklyn. Every line in Brooklyn belongs to the BMT with the exception of 3, two belongs to the IND (I'm including the "F" from Church Ave. and north) and the other, the IRT.
The IND holds it own in Brooklyn with the "A". It has more frequent service than the BMT and it get you to Manhattan faster than BOTH the BMT ("J", "Z") and the IRT.
However, its strongest market is Queens by far with the Queens Blvd routes dominating totally. Also as quiet as it's kept, the "A" also takes a nice portion of the Southeast Queens market. Not just the Rockaways, but South Jamaica, Rochdale Village, South Ozone Park, Springfield Gardens, St. Albans, Laurelton, etc.
There's no subway service at all in some of those areas.
Buses serve these areas. These same buses feed passengers directly into the IND & BMT. Also there are those who have access to cars that would drive to subway stations.
I referred to the "A" train because there are a lot of people who work in the Financial District who live in these areas that I mentioned who use buses and transfer to the "A" at Lefferts Blvd, Rockaway Blvd, Grant or Euclid Av stations. They also drive to the Grant Ave Station, which has a municipal parking lot, and grab the "A" there as well.
Once the passengers do this, it is anywhere from a 13 to 23 minute commute via the "A" to the Financial District, something that the "E", "F", "J" or "Z" cannot accomplish. Even the local "C" will get to the Financial District from Euclid Ave in 20 minutes.
Which division if were in direct competetion WITHIN Manhattan ONLY,
would lose the most money?
You would probably get better answers.
My personal answer to the re-phrased question would be the IRT.
A lot of business success still comes down to management, management and also management.
It was also the only division pre-unification which didn't have to manufacture it's own power.
That must incude an American League baseball "patsie" team that hasn't won a World Series since 1918.
Passing Pavonia Yard again, I saw a UP locomotive way back in the lineup shown in the photo above, but with the hundreds of freight cars in the yard, there was no way to get a photo of it.
I got off my two-car northbound at Delran and waited for the southbound, which apparently was running late, but since my watch battery seems to be failing, I couldn't tell how late.
When the southbound came in, it was another SINGLE CAR!!!! It was all I could do to get in. Others gave up and went home or waited a half hour for the next train. The train was running late because of the time lost as prospective passengers tried to get on at each station and some decided thet they couldn't.
As we left 36th Street I photographed the interior of #3504.
I rode all the way to Waterfront because the two-car train at Rand already had all the Pavonia-side window seats occupied.
3514 was laying up at Rand, but no attempt was made to mu it to our car. I got back on 3504 and photographed 3514 from the back window.
3504 left Waterfront as a single on time at 2:15, and at Aquarium, the first stop, was STANDING ROOM ONLY!!! We left a dozen people on the platform at Rand who couldn't get on.
Somebody at the Doggle is MESSED UP. They are driving away future business by their incompetence.
By the way, it looked like 50 passengers got off the southbound train at Aquarium, to visit the NJ State Aquarium. It seems as though the Doggle could be a boon to the Aquarium.
I had no trouble getting off at 36th Street, since I was standing in the left side doorway. The prior stops all have platforms on the right and 36th Street has a center island platform.
I want to take my grandson for a ride on the Doggle, but I'll have to do it on a weekday or wait until somebody at the RiverDOGGLE wakes up and provides adequate weekend service.
I see those pictures and videos, and the area, and it just looks like a perfect boom-spot. Imagine a few years from now if Jersey does it right and development takes place. That's even MORE passengers, will they fit or will they just forget about it?
And that's even though the daily ridership predictions are less than the Tampa Trolley's average daily attendence. ;)
Chuck Greene
Chuck. I sincerely hope you're wrong as we need this lightrail to succeed if we ever want to see more in the future.
I took a trip to the Riverline this weekend and these are some of my impression.
POSITIVES:
1. The cars were more comfortable than the HBLR or NCS.
2. The ride was very smooth. Even smoother than the HBLR!
3. Two cars were put together and it was packed all the to Camden.
4. The rail line is very cheap at $1.10. It's a giveaway.
NEGATIVES:
1. The ventalation inside the cabin was below par. I left the Riverline with a headache because the air quality inside the cabin was poor.
2. I'm very concerned about the future as there is very little at either ends of the stops. I hope developers start to do more on Camden side because there is very little there. Folks. It's real scary and they built this line with very little help from developers. What is really needed is a mall at the last stop of that lightrail like Newport Center. If I had money, I would put a business right by the acquirium and just rake in loads of money from all those folks. We have to keep our fingers crossed that this will work out.
Until Camden sheds its image - well-deserved, unfortunately - as one big drug-infested crime scene, no developer is going to take a chance on building a mall in that area. And shedding that image is going to take time. My older son (age 23) and I walked from the Rand Center to the battleship and back last month, before the rail line opened. We had to cross the street on our return trip to avoid a fight between two middle-aged drunks by one of the housing projects and were generally uncomfortable with the behavior of several other individuals while we were in the area, most of whom were hanging out in the PATCO station or the Walgreen's parking lot. There are too many places that would be far more profitable for a developer.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Steve, there is nothing more than I want is to see this RiverLINE to be a
big sauces. I just want them to figure out when to run (1) or (2) cars trains at the right time, and that's going to take weeks until the line simmers down a bit.
Chuck Greene
Chuck
Chuck Greene
Beleive me, I know how to pack into a crowded train despite my size. [I'm a big man].
"We're soliciting public input to be included in the preliminary engineering report," said Frank Martz, director of the community redevelopment agency and planning services for Altamonte Springs.
At the hearing, residents may comment on location, designs and economic and environmental effects.
Martz said a final engineering report would begin in the fall, and development could be start in 2007 or 2008."
**************************************************
Without LRT, what is this? Is this like the downtowns "BRT"? But that isn't "flexible". I'm lost where this came from, and why this takes sooooo long, and why this is a month after commuter rail input hearings. ACK!
Walking?!
Solution 2:
I use the water of the watermain break to put the fire out.
->no fire, no water => service as it is.
:-)
CT METRO NORTH NEW HAVEN RAIL COMMUTER COUNCIL
MINUTES OF FEBRUARY 18, 2004 MEETING
AT SACIA OFFICES, ONE LANDMARK SQUARE
STAMFORD, CONNECTICUT
The meeting began at 7:00 p.m.
Present were: Members Rodney Chabot, Chairman, Jim Cameron, Vice-Chairman, Carl Leaman, Ed Zimmerman, Peter Marcuse, Joe McGee and Bob Jelley; Ray Cox and Mike Donnarumma from Connecticut DOT; Sergeant John Mullen, Metro North Police; John Longobardi, Jeff Watson and Peter Millard from Metro North Railroad; Lisa Mercurio from SACIA; John Austin, Fairfield Consumer Advocate; Christina Lewis, Press; Richard M. Stowe, Railroad Transportation Excellence Coalition; and Scott Crosby, Rolf Obin, Steven Moore and Donald Mumma, members of the public.
The Minutes of the January meeting were approved.
WINTER OPERATIONS
Ray Cox reported that Tuesday, February 17 was the first day that Metro North returned to a regular schedule after the two weeks of diminished operation caused by the severe winter weather. Wednesday, February 18 was a good operating day.
In answer to a question, he reported that rehabilitated M-2 cars were averaging 280,000 miles before breakdown, compared to 60,000 miles for non-rehabilitated cars.
Ray Cox further reported that the DOT was amending its contract with Amtrak to provide that the Shore Line East trains will be maintained by Metro North rather than by Amtrak. As a result, Metro North will take over the New Haven shop presently being used by Amtrak for maintaining Shore Line East trains. At the present time, the Metro North shop in New Haven has 18 bays for maintenance of Metro North cars, and the Amtrak shop has 13 bays for maintenance of Shore Line East equipment. Maintenance of Shore Line East equipment does not require that many bays. The combined operation will give Metro North 31 bays, which will result in more bays available for maintenance of Metro North cars. Ray Cox hopes that the takeover will occur by July 1.
Ray Cox reported that some of the M-2 rehabilitation work was slowed down during the winter so as to provide space for repairing broken down Metro North cars.
A commuter, Steven Moore, asked why running a car without heat on the railroad was acceptable. Cox answered that a cold seat was better than no seat at all. Moore went on to ask why the DOT was supporting Shore Line East, with its relatively few commuters, as opposed to spending more on Metro North. There was a general discussion about the fact that more rail transit was better than less.
In answer to a question, Ray Cox reported that 20 pairs of cars had been rehabilitated so-far as part of CDOT’s CSR (Critical Systems Replacement) program. It had been hoped work would average 2 pairs per month but in fact only about 1 pair per month was being completed. He stated that the State was spending $600,000 per car on rehabilitation.
Several commuters talked of the need for the State to spend more money on trains and less on highways, and that the Rail Council ought to do a better job of selling rail transit to the Legislature.
Ray Cox further reported that the DOT had decided that the new cars for the Metro North-New Haven line will be M-8s, as opposed to double-deckers and other alternatives that had been considered. He explained that the Metro North yards were designed for trains with self-propelled cars, not locomotive-pulled cars, and that Metro North workers had 30 years of experience with self-propelled cars, which would be lost if a new type of car were chosen. He added that there may be some locomotive hauled trains on some routes. He said that there will be a 24-30 month period for designing new M-8s, and that money for the design process will be available. He said that the new M-8s will be designed for service on third-rail, 15,000 volts overhead, and 25,000 volts overhead, thus providing the ability to operate into Grand Central, within CT and potentially beyond New Haven.
PROPOSED FARE INCREASE
Ray Cox reported that he believed that the 5.5% fare increase proposed by the Governor will indeed take place. Joe McGee thought that there needed to be a 3 cent per gallon increase in the gasoline tax to go into a fund dedicated for mass transit. That would produce about $45 million per year. A commuter proposed an electric utility tax instead but Joe McGee suggested that a gasoline tax works better.
Joe McGee moved a resolution that the Council support a minimum of a 3 cent per gallon increase in the motor fuel tax, with the proceeds to be dedicated to capital improvements to the rail system. Ray Cox reported that presently, there are $125 million of capital projects per year managed by DOT, with 80% of the funds coming from the federal government and 20% coming from the State of Connecticut. The motion was carried, with 6 in favor, 1 opposed and 1 abstention. The Chairman and Vice Chairman agreed to write an appropriate letter advising the Legislature and the Governor of the Council’s resolution.
SATISFACTION SURVEY
There was a general discussion of Metro North’s passenger satisfaction survey done in October, 2003. None of the council members, except the Chairman and Vice Chairman, had seen the results of the survey. Categories of response had been changed from the previous year’s survey, making comparisons difficult, but the Vice Chairman said that there was not much change from the results one year ago.
It was reported that the New Haven line operates 80,000 train trips per year, the Harlem line operates 60,000 train trips per year and the Hudson line operates 40,000 train trips per year.
SWRPA TRANSPORTATION SUMMIT
Jim Cameron reported that a transportation summit had taken place on Saturday, February 14 in Norwalk. About 100 commuters came. 15-20 commuter spoke for about 1-1 ½ hours. Only three members of the Legislature’s 30-member transportation committee were there. One legislator said that the Legislature had failed the railroad. It was pointed out that something has to be done to get the rest of the State Legislature interested in rail transportation. Bob Jelley reported that he believed that the proposed commuter rail operation between New Haven, Hartford and Springfield was something that ought to be supported, because that would cause many more of the House and Senate districts to be impacted by commuter rail, probably generating more support for a commuter rail in the Legislature.
SHORE LINE EAST
There was discussion of the Shore Line East thru-trains to and from Stamford. Ray Cox reported that the thru-trains had met only 2 of their 3 objectives as they had failed to capture as many thru-riders from Shore Line East stations to Stamford as had been hoped. He also said that they cannot run down to Stamford in hot weather over 80 degrees, because the height of the diesel locomotives is too close to sagging catenary wires during hot weather, causing arcing and short circuits.
Mike Donnarumma reported that ridership for January, 2004 on Shore Line East was 1,544, up 4% or 5 % from January, 2003.
WATERBURY BRANCH
Mike Donnarumma reported that there was some bus substitution for January. It was also reported that the Governor’s budget proposal includes $2 million for a study of branch lines. It was the Council’s view that further study was not needed, and that a letter ought to be written suggesting that the money might better be spent on branch line operations.
DANBURY BRANCH
There were no bus substitutions during January.
NEW CANAAN BRANCH
There was nothing to report.
MAIN LINE
It was reported that catenary replacement from the New York State line to Stamford was almost complete. The Chairman asked for more information about the progress of the catenary project for the next meeting.
Ray Cox reported that the taxi surcharge at Stamford station will indeed be $2.00, and that will begin March 1. He also reported that the train monitor on the overpass from the new garage will be installed by the end of February. Ray Cox reported that the Bridgeport garage will, as of April 1, be $40 per month, rather than $30. The free lot will begin to charge $30 per month. New bus terminal and garage construction will begin in the fall of 2004 or spring of 2005 and will eliminate the parking lot. He further reported that the South Norwalk garage, which has been $650 per year will increase to $65 per month ($780 per year), the same as Stamford and New Haven.
The meeting adjourned at 8:35 p.m.
The next meeting will be at 7 pm on Wednesday, March 24 at the Bridgeport Railroad Station.
Bob Jelley
Secretary
I'm being sarcastic. I commend them for pointing out that the $2 million would be better spent on branch line improvements rather than a branch line study. I think the idea of a 3 cent increase in gas tax resulting in increased rail funding is good too, IF it can be kept out of the state's General Fund and actually applied to rail funding. Keep in mind, CT is a very corrupt and mismanaged state.
Also, I was glad to see ridership was up on the Shore Line East. Maybe someday it will run a full schedule and both ways at a time.
Your pal,
Fred
Whitlock Ave on the Pelham line and Crescent St on the Jamaica line both recorded sways of 3/16th of an inch.
The leader however was 61st St on the Flushing line which recorded a maximum sway of 5/16th of an inch.
The 1970s were not a good time for infrastructure so the deferred maint would accelerate loose joints (the West End el had falling pieces!). I would hate to think how much the old 3rd Ave el in the Bronx was swaying in the early 70s...or the lightly built Jamaica el from the 1880s.
(It would explain many things)
If ya REALLY wanna have fun - check with the guard towers in advance, show ID, let them make phone calls, and then walk on out to the CENTER or the GWB or any OTHER bridge (bonus "balls points" for the 59th street or "Mid-Hudson Bridge at Poughkeepsie" where the sway is IMPRESSIVE, as is the RUMBLE) and just stand there taking in the "traffic" and vibrations. Steel that "gives" is GOOD ... absorbs the energy ... sway on an el never made ME nervous though - I guess it required Physics 101 on "elasticity is a GOOD thing, here's Martha Stewart in a Tutu to demonstrate" ... heh.
When the GWB opened, so the story goes, two platoons of soldiers marched simultaneously across the bridge IN STEP from either end just to prove how strong it was. It swayed a little, but didn't collapse. Apparently the engineers felt that even resonant frequency wouldn't be enough to topple that structure. That's why soldiers normally break step when marching across a bridge.
:(
Chuck Greene
But yeah, classic film ...
--Mark
--Mark
Suspension bridges are designed to deflect under both live loads and wind loads. I cross the William Preston Lane Memorial bridge over the Chesapeake Bay twice a day. I have been on this bridge during strong thunder storms when the bridge was deflecting under high wind loads 35 mph plus (56.32 kph) the bridge deck was deflecting more then 6’ (15.24cm). You could feel the movement of the bridge in your stomach.
John
Still, though, any steel structure such as an elevated railway, skyscraper, bridge, etc. must have some give to it.
Matthew Mummert
Doh, thank you 6 inches. It’s hard to judge the actual movement but you can really feel it in your stomach.
Still, though, any steel structure such as an elevated railway, skyscraper, bridge, etc. must have some give to it.
Yuper,
John
--Mark
The twisting and deflection has been reduced by the rehabilitation that is stiffening the suspended spans to act like a pair of tubes (each tube is made up of a pair of trusses, the tracks floorbeams and upper roadway floorbeams) linked by the lower roadway, which is also stiffened. The large frames at the anchorages and towers were installed to resist the twisting effect at the supports.
--Mark
One of the things I liked to watch was the wear on the original pin support for the trusses at the anchorage. When a train moved from the side span to the main span, the cables exert enough upward force to lift the worn pin assembly up several inches. The Manhattan Bridge (pre-renovation) was an excellent example of extreme loads and fatigue conditions.
Regards,
Jimmy
PS, the Verrazano Bridge while running the Marathon can really sway and you'll actually feel the bridge move.
JLA
Chuck Greene
--Mark
Not only was there the pronounced sway but there were sound effects with it. The roof would squeak and squawk against the posts and the platform against the girders. Standing inside the stationhouse found you completely surrounded with the grunts and groans of wood rubbing against wood.
We invariably took out-of-town visitors to Jamaica or the city by train, and some of them were actually petrified of the sound and movement.
Crescent St along with Norwood Ave were rebuilt in 1981 and while I haven't seen it since, I trust that at least the sound effects were eliminated.
Both Mark and Salaam have made some really nice videos. They're great when you can't be there in person.
-Chris
-Chris
If the bus connects to the subway at both ends (or at one end and at a transfer point in the middle), then GO transfers (which look like pre-MetroCard bus transfers, except they're valid for three months) are distributed and collected at the subway stations.
That's the way they usually work. There are exceptions.
The F shuttle bus doesn't charge a fare, but subway-subway transfers are similarly allowed at Avenue X (but not 86 on the N) and at Stillwell
But then they have to pay a second fare to board the F.
Actually, last I checked (a few years ago), GO transfers were available on request at 86. I don't know where they're accepted or if they're also available at X.
* F and Q subway service to Coney Island resumes May 23, 2004; shuttle bus service discontinued
They work just fine, provided the person you are bussing on the shuttle knows you and likes you in that way.
As to a how shuttle buses work, you've already gotten your answers.
This is my favorite part (photos are from forgotten-ny.com which is a really great site).
Before
After
-Chris
But it would be cool to see some green.
Looked cooler with two platforms, IMO.
Does anyone know what happened or why that announcement would be made.
Several OLD Rollsigns be goin' round and round on some cars
so one grape-soda drinker decided to give chase and cut??
Willets Point Shea Stadium is used a lot during the summer for mets
games but I bet during the winter its like the stations in the Rockaways.
"The Independent's only line in the Bronx, planned along Grand Concourse, would alleviate congestion on the Jerome Ave line (although Hylan really wanted it torn down)."
**Hylan** wanted it torn down. Hylan was the mayor who was deeply prejudiced against "the subway interests" - the IRT and BMT - and was promoting the city-owned IND against them. In a logical, planned all-NYC subway system you wouldn't have two parallel lines only a few hindred feet apart. But this wasn't a logical, planned system, it was a competitive one! While some parts of the IND served new areas, for example the Queens Boulevard line, others were intended to compete directly with, and thus harm, the "interests".
True, but the IND had many plans to replace eeven dual contract els, used with the subway. The Fulton El for a good part of it's route was a rebuilt Dual Contracts el, and it was replaced. The Broadway El was targeted with the IND second system. There would be NO Broadway El if the IND second system was built. True, in Manhattan the IND was meant to replace the Manhattan "elevated" routes, but in the outer boroughs, the "subway" els were targeted also.
So the B'way line west of Myrtle & the route to Metroplitan Ave would have been at risk, not the rest of it.
Sure it would have. The South 4th Street subway, and the Myrtle-Central(Glendale) lines would have directly replaced the Broadway El. Here's the excerpt from this site:
South 4th Street-Utica Avenue Line: This would have gone (as subway) from the Houston St. river tunnel to Grand St. in Williamsburg, southeasterly to S. 4th St. and Driggs Ave., then along S. 4th Street (easterly and parallel to Broadway), then along Union Avenue and then Beaver Street to turn south along Stuyvesant Avenue until moving to Utica Avenue at approximately Fulton Street (where the never-used shell is in place today)......There would have been 2 tracks from the river to the S. 4th St. junction, then 8 tracks (!!) (two levels of 4 tracks, with the other level for the Myrtle-Central-Rockaway line outlined below)
Myrtle Avenue-Central Avenue-Rockaway Line: At Stuyvesant Avenue, where the Utica Avenue Line would turn south, this line would continue east as a subway along Bushwick Avenue, Myrtle Avenue, and then Central Avenue (Glendale, not Brooklyn) to about 73rd Place, where it would emerge and then follow the LIRR Montauk Division. It would have continued to the LIRR Rockaway Branch and then turned south through Forest Park, and continued south to Jamaica Bay.
Winfield Spur: This was designed to provide through service to the Rockaways from midtown, and also to serve the neighborhoods of Maspeth and Ridgewood. It would have been a two track line arising from the Roosevelt Avenue station (the never-used upper level station, but also would have track connections to the main line), and curving southeasterly between 78th and 79th Sts. to Queens Blvd., then along the LIRR ROW into Garfield Avenue to 65th Place, then along 65th Place to Fresh Pond Road, and then along Fresh Pond Rd and Cypress Hills Avenue to a connection with the Central Avenue line outlined above.
So yes, the Broadway El, and the M line would have been history. The Myrtle Subway would have run right under the Central, Knickerbocker, and Wyckoff stations, making all of them redundant. The Fresh Pond Rd line and Winfield spur would have been the mode of travel for the people around Forest and Fresh Pond Road (which is also walking distance to the Myrtle Subway) , and Seneca is close enough to the Wyckoff complex which would have had the L and the "Myrtle Ave Subway". Perhaps there is a slight possibility that the northern part of the M may have survived as a Wyckoff to Metropolitan Shuttle, similar to how the Franklin Shuttle survived, but south of that the line would have been history.
According to the map, it would be 149 St-Grand Concourse (Mott Avenue).
My guess would be 161st street, Yankee Stadium.
#3 West End Jeff
If the Jerome Ave. El. was torn down, there would not be enough service to handle all of the passenger traffic between Woodlawn and Manhattan.
Very true, and thank goodness we still have it. As people in that area of the Bronx bound for the East side take the Jerome, and the people bound for the West side take the Concourse. Ridgership stats for the two lines are very evenly shared between the two lines.
However.....
If they were to tear the Jerome Ave. El. down, they would have to build and complete a new subway tunnel before they could even think about tearing down the elevated structure.
....remeber we have to go back to the 20's and 30's when the point of the IND was to put the IRT-BMT out of business. Think about 2nd Ave. The 3rd and 2nd AVe els in Manhattan were both foolishly removed before a subway replacement was built. The East Side went from 3 lines to 1, and the Lex has been paying for it ever since. The 3rd Ave el should have been retained until the 2nd Ave subway was built. I guarantee there would have been a SAS today as they would have found some way to fund it as the pressure to get rid of the 3rd Ave el from Manhattan would have been extremely strong.
#3 West End Jeff
Da Hui
That sounds familiar.
That sounds familiar.
I've never seen documentation that this route was ever considered seriously by the city, and today would be prohibitively expensive. But it is an intriguing thought.
I heard this somewhere, too -- possibly on SubTalk! Anyway, the #4 could be run underground between 161st and 167th, then up Grant Highway to University Ave. to wherever. University is mostly a wide avenue with a median, suitable to subway construction. And it is 1/3 mile or so west of Jerome, so better serving the areas west of the Concourse.
So old aqueduct: Conducive or detrimental to subway construction?
Regards,
Jimmy
I suspect this imposing reality might have had some effect on the leaper.
Elias
However, most importantly, each train must be swpet through after each turnover so that there will be no concealed bombs or rubbish left on the train when another service starts. You know, the best time that a terrorist left his radio/cellphone-controlled bomb is when all passengers left the train while it terminates.
This allows only a few seconds for a passenger to notice the package and alert someone because once the train leaves the station you're screwed.
Leave it to the passengers to notice suspicious packages at terminals..assign the cops to crowded downtown stations.
Naa. He has to become a "mytar". That's the fad and part of the problem.
*There is a different between wanting to die and willing to die*
Yes there is. Except for them, to get to "heaven" they have to be a martyr. These people aren't soldiers, they're factories are just for making bomb belts. You dont' get away with a bomb belt. Last week a palestinian who was gunned down accidently by Hama's and Arafats boys was mistaken for being jewish. He's now a "martyr", and I bet his family has a nice little payout.
Watch the news/read a paper, they're willing and wanting. And with the palestinians 15 children per family compared to the Isrealis 1-2 or 3, they're not running out. Same in other places.
Don't even bother selling adult diapers to Wall Street, nothing's strong enough to work there. Investors ought to go around bottomless with absorbent pads spread out on the floor. Heck, look what happened today, Israel engaged in some much-needed vermin extermination and yet the markets tanked on "geopolitical jitters." God help us.
--Mark
>>>>The city's current environmental review includes the subway. Without it, Mr. Yaro said, the Jets stadium is even more vulnerable to criticism that it will bring traffic jams and pollution.<<<<
This is why I was against the new Jets Stadium. The traffic along the West Side Highway is going to be a nighmare. This is going to be like Cannal Street during most weekends and you thought Route 3 was a mad-house during game day??
The builders of the new Jets Stadium are not worried about all the new traffic and really think this can be constructed without it. As far as I can see, New Jersey is in better condition to handle motor traffic than the Westside will ever be so you can just imagine the motor traffic!
Regardless. If anyone must suffer without rail, it should be the motorist going to that stadium. This was totally unnecessary and we have two world class stadiums in the Bronx and Queens.
WHY? I have not seen one good reason why a stadium should be built out in the disgusting boondocks of queens, instead of in midtown manhattan, where it is in the center of many ammenities that the city has to offer.
The area already has very good subway and LIRR access, so you would not have to worry about extending the 7 line from Times Square.
I'm not convinced that this is necessary for the stadium to be built. Build moving walkways from the 8th avenue line at Penn Station, and you'd have access that's almost just as good.
As someone in the article argues, the highest transit priority in NYC should be to construct a Second Avenue Subway.
I agree. Of course, you can build both.
Money. If the stadium is built on the West Side, we're going to have to have a platform constructed over the rail yard just to hold the stadium. We're going to have to build a subway extension to the stadium or else "Midtown West" will become site of the worst traffic disaster in US history. Not to mention we also got an increasingly powerful coalition that are lining up against this project in Manhattan.
Moving Walkways?
They'd have to be a mile and a half long in length to get from Penn Station to the proposed West Side Stadium, and that means more money would have to be spent to build them.
Think about the advantages of a stadium in Queens. You're not going to have a lot of local opposition because nobody lives in the area. It already got transit going there. It would not cost as much money to build a stadium there. The Willets Point area would become a major sports-event area, not unlike special-event areas in cities such as Philly, KC and Oakland. It's about 20 minutes by train from midtown to Willets Point via 7 express. Conventioners would face a shorter trip from the Airports than they would from midtown. Residents on the West Side won't have to worry about increased traffic, and most of all we wouldn't have another subway project competing with the Second Ave project, which is long overdue. Yeah, money could be thrown to improving the appearance of the Willets Point area, but it'll still be much cheaper than the whole proposed West Side Stadium project.
I'm a die-hard Jet fan and I want to see a retractable roof stadium built for the Jets; but it doesn't have to be in Manhattan.
Let's also keep in mind that it's also supposed to be convention space for the Javits Center. This is not useable is the building is in queens.
Consider too that there is already subway service nearby. And that games would take place during off-peak travel times.
Moving Walkways?
They'd have to be a mile and a half long in length to get from Penn Station to the proposed West Side Stadium, and that means more money would have to be spent to build them.
Less than extending the #7 line.
Yeah, money could be thrown to improving the appearance of the Willets Point area, but it'll still be much cheaper than the whole proposed West Side Stadium project.
Remember, the city is trying to develop the entire far west side. Even if the Stadium is not built there, the platform above the rail yards would still be built. As would plans for larger zoning allowances and an extra tree lined street. Either way the city's money is going there. Why not build a combined stadium/Javits Center expansion that will be in the heart of other tourist attractions.
not unlike special-event areas in cities such as Philly
As a side note: Veterans stadium went BOOM! this past weekend.
The #7 extension may or may not be a good investment, but I'm not convinced it solves the stadium's traffic issues. There are probably a lot of Jets fans coming from places where the #7 train won't help them (e.g., New Jersey).
In any event, the Jets have just 10 schedule home dates a year (2 pre-season, 8 regular season). You don't build a subway line for 10 games. If the #7 extension makes sense, it will need more justification than that.
It HAS more justification than just the stadium.
Mayor Bloomberg and Deputy Mayor Doctoroff hope that 4-5 flimsy justifications add up to something solid. I'm open to the possibility, but not yet convinced. Neither is the MTA, apparently.
The retractable-roof stadium would hold a lot more than 10 Jets games. If it's a retractable roof stadium, the NCAA Final Four could now be held in NYC because it would be a large indoor stadium which is what the NCAA prefers for the Final Four. The Super Bowl could be held in NYC because the NFL prefers either warm-weather cities or cities with domes (or retractable roofs). Large-scale conventions or meetings could now be held because conventioners want usually indoor stadiums. A retractable roof stadium offers this. Many large concerts could be held inside a retractable roof stadium at any time of the year. If the Jets are smart and build the stadium to soccer specifications, World Cup qualifying games and other soccer matches could be held here because NYC has a lot of soccer fans. Many of these same people (myself included) have a difficult time getting to the Giants Stadium because we don't have cars. Think of all the money that a stadium like this would bring to the city!
Like I said, I love the idea of a new retractable roof stadium for the Jets in NYC, but I don't like the idea of putting it on the West Side. Build this stadium in Willets Point near the 7 and I think the majority of NYC would be cool with it.
I agree. It's not a guarantee that NYC will host the 2012 Olympics, for which is ANOTHER reason for trying to get a Stadium on the West Side so that's a questionmark, as you mentioned 10 games isn't enough and the Javits Center would be getting a long overdue expansion, which is a positive for the 7 extension. Maybe a extension to Chelsea Piers or 14 St would be a better option but of course I do realize it will be more expensive.
Folks, You can't get around the fact that it's going to be a zoo whenever they hold some concert or promotion around that stadium. This is going to be called Cannal Street North when it comes to air quality. It may increase property values but will decrease the quality of life.
There are very deep pockets that live in that area and I hope they will stop this madness. They stopped Trump from building there and I hope they stop this one.
Did anyone ever wonder how long the Jets will stay at this stadium or how many years before the owners start asking for a new one?? How many NFL stadiums have been built in the past decade only to see their teams leave when a new one was built. The Jets sell out Giants stadium every game but now they want a new one at the cost of hundreds of millions because they want their own?? Give me a break. What a waste of money. We have 3 world class stadiums and now have to subsidize a 4th because the owner wants one that says "JETS" on the outside. This is nonsense. The city has a lot of other needs besides building a stadium for 10 football games. Period.
The Jets have moved how many times since 1969?? What if the Jets ten years from now wanted a new stadium with more luxury boxes??
How many NFL stadiums have been built in the past decade only to see their teams leave when a new one was built.
Built in the last decade, and then abandoned? As far as I can recall, zero.
We have 3 world class stadiums and now have to subsidize a 4th because the owner wants one that says "JETS" on the outside. ... The Jets have moved how many times since 1969??
The Jets have moved once since 1969--to the Meadowlands. They did so because Shea Stadium is distinctly not world-class. It's far from it.
What if the Jets ten years from now wanted a new stadium with more luxury boxes??
You are overlooking the fact that the Jets are proposing to spend $800 million of their own money for this stadium. While I have my doubts about the project, this is not one of them.
Your observation about traffic jams and pollution is a lot more to to-the-point.
Built in the last decade, and then abandoned? As far as I can recall, zero. <<<<
I can't count the number of teams that moved to different cities but some names that come to my mind are the Rams, Browns and Raiders. How many teams in the NBA, NHL and MLB have moved and left abondoned stadiums?? ALOT and more are on the way.
I just remembered. The Vikings owner wants out and was threatening to move the team if a new stadium wasn't constructed. Hey.. Why not move the Vikings over to the West side now when you think about it. This is just more insanity.
A study not long ago showed that all this stadium construction had very little impact on the overall economy of the towns. The Giants employ very little people and you could probably get more tax revenue with a shopping mall. Furthermore, these stadiums owners make big promises and if the team gets bad and the fans don't come, they are the first ones crying for a new stadium. It's insane folks.
>>>>>The Jets have moved once since 1969--to the Meadowlands. They did so because Shea Stadium is distinctly not world-class. It's far from it. <<<<<
I disagree. The Jets started off in the Polo grounds, moved to Shea, moved to Giants stadium and now want to settle in the West Side. I want to know where they intend to move next?
As far as I'm concered, Shea a fine stadium today and would be better if they invested the kind of money it would take to build a new one in improving the current facility. Be Honest. The reason they don't want to relocate in Queens is because of the Black population living there. If Shea Stadium so bad, why not Yankee Stadium?? Ooopps .. I forgot. Too many blacks there.!
Folks. When are we going to get rid of this fear of other races?
>>>>>You are overlooking the fact that the Jets are proposing to spend $800 million of their own money for this stadium. While I have my doubts about the project, this is not one of them. <<<
The 800 million is nothing compared to what the city will spend in terms of tax incentives and rail constuction.
That was not since 1969. The New York Titans (Jets predecessor) stay at the Polo Grounds was always intended to be temporary.
Shea a fine stadium today and would be better if they invested the kind of money it would take to build a new one in improving the current facility
Why invest the same money to just renovate an old, crappy stadium when you can build a new one?
The reason they don't want to relocate in Queens is because of the Black population living there.
Bullshit. When you run out of things to say, you just resort to race baiting.
If Shea Stadium so bad, why not Yankee Stadium??
Yankee stadium is even worse for football, it was expressly designed for baseball. The Giants may have used it in the past but they have since left and the football configuration was eliminated in the 70s renovation.
Ooopps .. I forgot. Too many blacks there.!
Folks. When are we going to get rid of this fear of other races?
Folks. When are we going to get rid of this race baiting?
You sure have a serious prejudicial problem with yourself. Many of the Blacks you say there are too many, are working class in the area. This does in include the majority of people who work in the City government and judicial offices to the east of Yankee Stadium happen to be Black or Latino.
The working class people in the area are not the problem. You misunderstood. The majority of the people have no say what so ever on this matter. It's the ownership that won't locate the team to a "bad neighborhood" because they fear no one will attend at night. Is moving a team to an urban location the kiss of death?
Not So.
Yankee stadium packs em in year after year when they put on a good team. Do you remember when the Boss wanted to move the team to Jersey even though the stadium was sold out game after game? He was saying for years that Yankee stadium would never attract enough people to fill the seats because it was located in the Bronx! (ie. Bad neighborhood) Why did he want to build in the middle of sprawl where no one would go instead of keeping the team in the Bronx? HUMMMMMMMMMM?
In the end, the Boss came to his senses and left the team right where it is. Look at what happened in Jersey with the Nets? For years they talked about moving the team to Newark but ownership wouldn't do it because of the "bad neighborhood". Now that the Nets are practically gone, the Devils were next to leave but ownership finally came to their senses and will relocate the team to that "bad neighborhood".
Folks. No one wants to develope these neighborhoods which is why they became problems in the first place.
And how much are they putting toward related transport infrastructure, such as the subway they are demanding?
They aren't the ones demanding the subway extension.
The Mayor's team believes that the area can't be revitalized without mass transit access. They also believe that the presence of subway service will make the Javits a more competitive convention center. And lastly, if the city gets the Olympics, they believe that they need ways of rapidly transporting mass quantities of people into the area, and the subway can do that.
I'm not convinced yet, but these are their reasons.
Having said that, I don't necessarily agree that a football stadium is the most wonderful idea. And let's be clear - the owner of the Jets couldn't care less about traffic and congestion. He cares that money flows into the ticket office and that the city gives him tax breaks (which he hasn't earned).
If everybody else floated away into the ocean that would be fine with him.
If "everybody else" includes you, I'm with Mr. Johnson.
I've given him chance after chance. He's proven himself to be nothing more than a worthless bigot beneath contempt.
Let Pigs post whatever he wants. I'm fine with it.
Ron
I would anticipate that if subway service is extended to a a stadium/Javits complex, there would be a pocket track so that extra trains could depart at maximum frequency.
This would also generate an argument for connecting the subway extension to Penn Station somehow, maybe by doubling back (or even to the 34th St BMT/IND station) as it would provide capacity to get patrons back to NJ and discourage them from bringing their cars into Manhattan.
Remember, don't drift too far away from the original purpose, which is the 7 train extension. Bulding the stadium will most likely have a connection to the 7 going west as well as the expansion of Javits Center. I agree with the notion that the train proposal is unjustified simply for the stadium but it's more than that. Also the stadium could be used for miscellaneous events like an add on for Javits Center conventions and so on. Now on the sports stadiums, I can't recall ANY team that has built a new stadium only to abandon it in only 10 years, as you mentioned. The Vet, which was recently demolished for example, was built just over 30 years ago but was an unsafe eyesore & was to the point where the Ravens actually refused to play there for a game so new stadiums aren't always bad.
This was because of the playing surface. Not the structure itself.
Sports stadiums are often "a wash" - that is, the additional revenue, business, tax receipts are balanced out by increases in costs for police protection, traffic control, concessions to the sports team owner etc. However, if the stadium is used for a lot of other things it may be a plus overall. It depends on how many of these other things we're talking about.
"Folks, You can't get around the fact that it's going to be a zoo whenever they hold some concert or promotion around that stadium."
And where in Manhattan do you not have "a zoo?" Manhattan is one hell of a busy place, and the far west side is not exclusively a residential area.
" This is going to be called Cannal Street North when it comes to air quality."
All of which means what? Other than you'll need additional subway service (for the Javits expansion, not just the stadium)
" It may increase property values but will decrease the quality of life."
Nonsense. That some people are willing to say that over and over doesn't make it true. You've got an underused eyesore in the form of the railyards and New York needs to turn that into productive space. The city needs to go ahead and do it, and if lawsuits are filed, well, so be it. They'll sue; ultimately they'll lose and the developments will move forward.
If pacifiers need to be put in crybabies' mouths (another fine NYC tradition) and concessions made while doing this project, great. I'm all for it.
Here's the NY Times take on it.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/24/nyregion/24STAD.html
My personal opinion is that YC really does need to extend a subway line to an expanded Javits-and-stadium complex. In fact, the subway should be started first and integrated into the Javits expansion so that when Javits opens, train service starts that very day and passengers can come off the subway and get off the escalator right in the newbuilding lobby. The state's argument is BS.
If the city chooses to finance the subway by itself, in part by killing off the La Guardia subway extension, then MTA will build the line.
It is a matter of priority of course. Building something to completion is more important than starting three things and not getting anything done. Here East Side access has the advantage of already being underway.
How would a Metroliner or Capitoliner ride, back in Budd Metroliner days, compare to an Amfleet ride at the present time?
I wonder how the Metroliner coaches of the Penn Central/1st Amtrak generation were different from the current Amfleet coaches that Amtrak now runs.
Metroliner cab cars: De-powered. Slimline windows. Outboard bearing trucks. Cab on one end. Doors either end. Poor riding from truck hunting.
Metroliner Amfleet I cars: Structurally different from Metroliner (hence cheaper and lighter). Slimline windows. Inboard beating trucks. Vestibules on both ends. A number of interior configurations: AmCoach (84-seat and 72-seat variations), AmCafe, AmDiner, Custom Class, Business Class. Poor riding from lightweight construction.
Non-Metroliner Amfleet II cars: Structurally different from Amfleet I. Larger windows. Inboard beating trucks. Vestibules on both ends. Manually operated doors. A number of interior configurations: AmCoach (72-seat and 54-seat 'Chicago' variations), AmDiner. Nicer riding.
How would a Metroliner or Capitoliner ride, back in Budd Metroliner days, compare to an Amfleet ride at the present time?
Metroliners are less prone to wheel flats. Amfleet rides are worse at high speeds (so says urban legend, since I was too young to remember). Amfleet II rides are not bad when well maintained and riding on good track.
AEM7
You were the one that got into the cab and moved it 10' or so to the East... :-P
:)
"Ladies and Gentleman, due to [unintelligible turkey gobbling], A, B, C, and D trains are running at slower speeds between 125 St and West 4 St."
It's bad down here. I'd avoid it. Take the IRT.
Don't know why that affected the A and C. Perhaps some 6th Avenue trains were rerouted to 8th, creating more congestion over there?
I would send all V trains to 8th Avenue via Express to 34th Street (C + E + V = ~31 TPH, so it can't go on the local to West 4th), and turn every third F train back to Queens at 57th/6th. Problem solved. Why the hell do they think they can put four services on one track?
...because they don't understand logic in high school...
B trains stay on 8th avenue to W4th st, where they switch back to the 6th avenue line.
D trains run normal.
Some E trains run express to Canal, then to WTC.
Some F trains are sent to Bklyn via crosstown. All others run via 6th av express.
V train via 6th av express, then back to local at W4th.
Can't get from A1 at W4 to B3 at Bway-Laff.
X-over S of Bway-Laff removed for construction of Chrystie St.
Could always send the B train down the Culver so that it will make it to Brighton Beach for it's return trip.
Better to run every 3rd F onto the BMT and to Bay Parkway on the B'way Express / 4av Local / West End line, and connect to Ave X through tower D and the yard. That way you don't lose your NB trains for later, and many B'way stops are close to 6/Ave line stops. Transfers to non-rerouted F's are available at 34th/6th and 4th/9th
And for the first time ever, we sailed right into Brighton Beach.
I'm referring to the north terminal. Do you mean the 0749 at Columbus Circle? That's the 0714 BPB, one interval behind my train. If that's the one you were on, I'm glad I didn't miss the 0705 again, or I would have been late to work yet again.
Railfanning in the morning, I take it? Lefferts to Sheepshead via Columbus Circle is hardly the best route for any other purpose.
I was on the 7:44 out of BPB. My watch seems to be a minute fast. I got to Columbus Circle at @ 8:25 AM before the SLOWS set in.
Railfanning in the morning, I take it? Lefferts to Sheepshead via Columbus Circle is hardly the best route for any other purpose.
Yup. I'm going every Monday now, since the new Manhattan bridge service has rekindled the desire I lost many years ago to ride, ride, ride! The novelty of crossing the bridge on 6th Ave and then Broadway in the same day still hasn't worn off. I rode for 11 hours today, and I never once stepped foot on the IRT.
Hardcore.
It has a sign above the grate it that says 'not a subway entrance, for NYC Transit Authority use only'.
Is this currently being used by the NYCTA and if so, for what? And also, was it used for another purpose previously?
-J-
Also, have you ever ridden the QM17?
Da Hui
Rich
The GO cleared late, some time after 6. Then, when it was time for the A to start running from Far Rockaway, Far Rock developed switch problems.
As a result, an A train was turned at Broad Channel for Northbound service, and switch problems developed at Broad Channel.
All in all, a bad day for the Rockaway line. From a quick look, it didn't look like they had any service south of Rockaway Blvd toward Manhattan until about 9.
Then in the afternoon things went bad again, but not for any extended period of time.
Your pal,
Fred
Like the directions on my cousin's wedding invitation this past summer: "Take the E or F to 169 St..."
I began to explain to her about the congestion at DeKalb Ave and how it might be a minute or so longer. Just then, the ATD from the tower (who knew i was waiting on the platform) came out and asked if i had heard the last PA announcement. I said that I hadn't. She said, "Well, the next Delta train is about 3 minutes away." The lady turned to me and said that she didn't know 'those people' gave that kind of service. I just said, "All the time."
I heard some woman *giving* directions. Sheesh!
So Complicated!
Elias : )
free subway rides
ABC Action News: FBI investigating allegations
Anyway, I'm still waiting for philly's mayor or SEPTA to totally resign, this is nothing compared to them. Least Dent didn't refuse to testify and said there was no wrong-doing.
Check out the video's though, they're very good.
We held a trip earlier this year in January but it was cold and we didn't make any stops for photos. This time the weather should be better and we'll be able to make stops in between the 30 minute trains.
The tentative date is April 8th which is a Thursday. It'll probably be in the late morning, probably the 11 AM ferry out of Whitehall.
The trip will be similar to this trip, held back in January.
Once everything is ironed out, I'll post the exact details but right now April 8th at 11AM seems like the date/time.
If are interested in coming, simply post your intentions.
:)
-Chris
The trip is now april 9th. I will post the details regarding where and when by April 2nd.
Thanks
Robert
Zebras. The C/R MUST POINT at the Zebra BEFORE opening his doors. When the C/R is properly located at the Zebra Boards, then the train is fully in the station and it is safe to open the doors: none of the geese will fall onto the tracks.
If the C/R fails to point at the board, and supervision catches him not pointing, he can be written up. I seldom if ever observed this practice, since I always ride at the front of the train not at the middle. So one time, with my trusty railfan camera in hand, I positioned myself by the Zebra board to watch this. Yes they all pointed. And that last one, at Far Rockaway, observed me hob-nobbing with some of the supervisors on the platform. He pointed at the board with somewhat of a guilty start.
You see the deal is, the conductor can NEVER say "I thought the train was in the station." If there is a problem, then they got your ass for not pointing at the Zebra.
I understand that one time the conductor got confused on the shuttle, and opened the wrong side. Yup... He got written up for "Not Pointing at the Zebra"
Elias
dont worry folks we discussed this at the south pasadena ERHA meeting
a nice man was stopped at a DART light rail station in texas taking
pictures and video !!
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It's not even worth the energy nor coal.
Sorry 2 hear of your incident, Brah Salaam
(but atleast --YOU-- came out safe!!)
672160
Photo above is not by me
-Chris
Robert
: ) Elias
It's almost April, and I think I'm still riding R-62s on the 7.
The kicker: The R-62A had (F) rollsigns on the front, and on the side of two of the cars. Hollywood is SO fake. =p
If it was a movie shoot they probably would do it later in the evening so they could shut the shuttle down.
Adam
Mine would have to be:
The "F" line- the whole thing (Culver, 6th Av., etc.). I love this line because riding it from end to end takes a fair amount of time, and covers many different kinds of stations-- from the city's highest to its deepest.
(4) WoodlawnBowlingGreen,
B Bonnici
I also love the Frankin Shuttle. It is beautiful and the trains (R68's) aren't that bad either (sometimes).
And, of course, this may not count, but the SIR aint bad either (c'mon, its FREE!)
-Chris
'Nuff said, right?
D to Brighton Beach 4ever!
I grew up for 15 years along the Brighton Line (before moving to Philadelphia right near the R8 line, where I still live), using the Ave. U and Kings Hwy. stations weekly, if not more frequent. The Brighton line gets my vote for second best, but there's still something about the Culver/6th Av line that I love.
-William A. Padron
["Wash.Hts.-8th Av.Exp."]
#4 Sea Beach Fred, now heading for our next stop-----20th Avenue.
I choose the IND "A" line as my own all-around favorite line because it is that route I have known all my life backwards, forwards, inside and out. It is also where my all-time favorite cars the R-10's (also my personal choice) ruled on that line during its glory years and prime there.
In all my years as a lifelong subway buff, I know each and every fan I have come across has their own choices and perferences as their likes and dislikes. Whatever works and feels in anyone's subway railfanning interests in each in their own personal ways at best, I say okay and that's life!
-William A. Padron
["Wash.Hts.-8th Av.Exp."]
Railfans can get OFF the train, stretch their legs, go take some pictures, go for dogs and rides - when you're sentenced to broom closet duty, you CAN'T get off the train until you get to the terminal. Then you get yelled at. And as for "JFK" ... I don't see the problem ... pick your Yalie skull and bones preppie. Dem, Repub, they're STILL politicos ... :)
Got one buddy who was a staunch IRT lover. Decided to go over to B division and sniff the daisies ... he's BACK on the IRT again. 'Nuff said. :)
Honorable mention is the Flushing Line on the 7. Besides the fact that it also has a very fast express run, I think that's the only line where you can see all the major East River crossings and the GW Bridge if you know where to look. I miss the R-33 and R-36's on the line though...
Honorable Mention: The Rockaways for it's 5 star scenery, especially during sunrise and sunset on a clear day.
Yesterday, I got on one at 68th Street that said that it was a "Manhattan-bound 6 train."
You would have thought they would have corrected this problem by now.
"This is a Manhattan bound 6 express train"
Interestingly, I heard this announcement the other day in Manhattan:
"This is a Brooklyn Bridge-bound (6) local train."
"This is a Brooklyn Bridge-bound (6) train."
Once in Manhattan, the Brooklyn Bridge-bound trains no longer identify themselves as locals. Yet this one train did.
And what if I don't know this? your post makes no sense
I noticed that bronx bound 6 trains in manhattan were calling themselves "Bronx-bound 6 local trains", even if they were bronx expresses!
Since when has DefJef started reporting for Fox?
You're walking down a deserted street with your wife and two small
children. Suddenly, a dangerous looking man with a huge knife
comes around the corner, locks eyes with you, screams obscenities,
raises the knife and charges.
You are carrying a Glock 40, and you are an expert shot. You have mere
seconds before he reaches you and your family. What do you do?
Liberal Answer:
Well, that's not enough information to answer the
question! Why am I carrying a loaded gun anyway and what kind of message does this send to society and my children? Does the man look poor or oppressed? Have I ever done anything to him that would inspire him to attack? Could we run away? What does my wife think? What about the kids? Could I possibly swing the gun like a club and knock the knife out of his hand? What does the law say about this situation? Does the Glock have an appropriate safety built into it? Is it possible he'd be happy with just killing me? Does he definitely want to kill me, or would he be content just to take my money? If I were to grab his knees and hold on, could my family get away while he is stabbing me? Should I call 9-1-1? Why is this street so deserted? We need to raise taxes, have a paint and weed day and make this a happier, healthier street that would discourage such behavior. This is all so confusing! I need to debate this with some friends for a few days and try to come to a consensus.
Conservative Answer:
BANG!
Southerner's Answer:
BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG!
BANG! (click......sounds of reloading)... Wife: "Hun, he looks like he's still moving. Whadda y'all kids think?" Son: "Mama's right Daddy, I saw it too." BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! click.... Daughter: "Nice group, Daddy! Were those the Winchester Silver Tips?"
A father watched his daughter playing in the garden. He smiled as he reflected on how sweet and innocent his little girl was. Suddenly she just stopped and stared at the ground. He went over to her and noticed she was looking at two spiders mating.
"Daddy, what are those two spiders doing?" she asked.
"They're mating," her father replied.
"What do you call the spider on top, Daddy?" she asked.
"That's a Daddy Longlegs." Her father answered.
"So, the other one is Mommy Longlegs?" the little girl asked.
"No," her father replied. "Both of them are Daddy Longlegs."
The little girl thought for a moment, then took her foot and stomped them flat and said
"Well, it might be okay in California or Massachusetts, but we're not having any of that chit in Texas !"
It was a cut and paste that I came upon, I did not write it.
: ) Elias
Either that, or subway car heaters are designed by ultraliberals to force wiomen to take their clothes off, so we have to remove the heaters from all subway cars and replace them with the conservative models.
:0)
Be that as it may, it was a cute story that I saw today on an otherwise fairly liberal site.
Elias
That's all they run on the E nowadays.
SERIOUSLY.
The redbirds were notorious for having the under-seat heaters
(which came in mad handy during the winters of the 1980's).
R32 are like the Redbirds next-0f-kin (build wise)
I drive a transit bus...one day this passenger boarded, but not before sucking the holy hell out of a cigarette at the door, then snuffing out half of it on the side of the bus and putting the remains in his coat pocket.
He goes to the back of the bus, falls asleep, and next thing ya know, I smell something burning in the bus. I stopped, and another passenger said "Hey, that guy is on fire!" Hahaha, the cigarette set his coat on fire!!!!
Had to put him out with the fire extinguisher, and he never woke up until the incident was over. I called transit police to cover my a$$....they couldn't stop laughing.
Haven't seen the idiot since. maybe he died of lung cancer....or burned himself to death somewhere.
In any case, being a Post reader, I think you have opportunities there.
Yup, I was cursing the damned tower. It took 3 minutes to decide which train would leave first.
Wow ! A Myrtle-Bushwick subway , a Winfield spur , and so much more ! I'm dying to see this mixed in with the current system to see what the map would look like today had it been built !
I have given thought to it, but... They were not all that well laid out. Some sketches show one thing, and others another.
Some of the engineering, obviously *was* done, since there *are* provisions for these conections in existing construction, but other alingnments and station locations sem to be more tentative.
There was more than one set of plans.
Elias
Not in the 1929 plan. That option was first proposed in 1949.
David Ross
Production Manager - THE BULLETIN
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
In that photo , it appears that the Ditmars Ave subway station on the F line was originally a typical local station . When I look at that photo , and other photos of the Culver shuttle at that station , it appears they took the actual side platform station and turned it into an island platform station by adding a track , and taking the railing out of the canopy .
Doesn't it appear to be a side platform canopy on an island platform in that photo ? What did they do here ? Did they actually think that the Culver shuttle would get so much use that it was worth adding a new trackway to ?
Also , I haven't been there for a while , is the trackway behind the now wall platform still there when they put up the windscreen or is it removed ?
Here's a great pic from 1950 of the station as it appeared before the IND connection was made. The "shuttle" platform is just the normal side platform typical for Culver line local stations. The track to the extreme right connected to the IND. Some say this single track connection was there as early as 1939:
I assume you meant the extreme left track. By the way, I find it interesting that there are no third rail covers. I assume it was because you had both metal subway cars and gate cars.
The only station like that over there is Grant Avenue. There is also another "station" there which I don't need to mention. There is no portal after that other station.
The entire Jamaica el line all the way to 168th St, and the Myrt all the way to Metropolitan Ave had uncovered third rail until the late 1950's or early 1960's.
Fourth Avenue must not have (at least as far as 36th Street) had subway third rail or el cars could not have reached the West End to proceed to Coney.
And as I said, I remember the elevated third rail still being in place on many lines that didn't use el cars in service.
-- Ed Sachs
I'm puzzled as to what clearance problems you think they might have encountered. The running rails were still in the same place.
I was always impressed with the danger faced by the men who worked on track level cutting and assembling cars on the center track at Jamaica line's 111th St and also Fulton St's Grant Ave. They had to deal with an uncovered third rail on one side of the center track, and two uncovered third rails on the other side. There were no outside walkways in those days so all uncovered third rails were on the center track side of each outside track.
I don't know about Fulton St but the nine foot gate cars shared many platforms with the ten foot Standards on the Jamaica line and the northern part of the Myrtle Ave line.
When a gate train stopped at one of these platforms there was a definate gap. It never seemed to cause a problem.
Perhaps the traveling public was more aware of their surroundings in the old days.
In non-rush hours, Culver-Nassau local trains ran all the way to Coney Island.
-- Ed Sachs
: )
-Chris
What's the difference?
© 2004
See here for the rest of today's photos:
While on this subject, I have a similar Question. On the Franklin Shuttle, at the station at Fulton/Franklin, one platform had the typical "side platform" layout, but the unused platform appears to have the opposite qualities than the Ditmas Ave platform had. In this case, it looks like it was used at one time as a "side platform" but has the look of an "island platform" Was the station originally a three track station "back in the days"?
WHat was the original layout of that station?
Here's my original post when I was trying to get the photos to post :
"You may be right . While the below photo does not show what looks like an island platform on the right in the photo you posted , the photo below shows clearly that the platform on the left is a typical island platform . Compare this photo to the one below you posted , and you have two different types of platforms , and one sure does look like it used to be an island platform with a railing added before being totally abandoned"
Image 6374
Image 1309
In addition, when you went up the stairway on the south side of Fulton Street, which came up on the Brighton's Manhattan-bound side, you could make out a disused underpass to the Brooklyn-bound side. The chunk of the Fulton Street el was also part of the Fulton el's station. A pity no one really took pictures of that part until after the demolition started.
Chris: As a terminal Franklin Avenue had only one track. However the northbound trackway was boarded over and used as a platform. When I first rode the Franklin Shuttle in 1962 I seem to remember that both platforms were in use. Passengers were discharged on the east platform and picked up on the west platform. As you exited on the east platform there were ticket vending machines for the transfer ticket to the IND. They ran a bell every time that you pulled down the lever and dispensed a transfer. The stairway to the south side of Fulton Street was still in use as was the bridge accross .
Sometime after that I think that there was a fire that destroyed the wooden platform over the old northbound track. The stairway to the south side of Fulton Street may have been closed at that time.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Ditmas Ave. today is a typical 'wall' platform on an El. Windscreen serves as the wall to the platform. Only a corner-piece of steel remains on the structure where the original Culver Line connected. Some middle-income housing has been built on the former ROW (SBK tracks are long gone).
All white paint scheme on the IRT when did that end?
Where the double letters ended yet or what?
Aanything PLEASE!
Today I finally did it! I walked allllll the way from Heath St. to Forest Hills, along the route of the old trolley. I guess I just wanted to make a few observations: (1) The neighbourhood is much, much better than its reputation suggests. I saw some gangs, but they weren't really that threatening, and it's not like they don't have those in the northern suburbs like Somerville. The side streets can look somewhat derelict, but the main street (Centre St.) is bustling with activity and looks actually very much like an up-and-coming neighbourhood -- not dissimilar to Davis Sq., Somerville. (2) The restoration of the Arborway trolley would not really give the population a better service, since there isn't enough space to fit in a trolley, parking, and normal vehicle traffic. (3) At the Southern end of the Orange Line, the station spacing seem to be somewhat poor. Between Green Street and Forest Hills, there is a good one mile distance, walking from South St. could be somewhat confusing; (4) The center of activity appears to be Centre St., and in fact both South Huntingdon and South St. would probably not really cut it for full rapid transit service.
Thus, the real problem is that Centre St., Jamaica Plain does not have very good transit access to the Orange Line.
My suggestion, instead of restoring the Arborway trolley line, would be:
(1) Restructure the No.39 bus to be a feeder bus service from Forest Hills, terminating either at Jackson Sq. or Stony Brook. Provide high quality service on this corridor.
(2) Curtail trolley operation back to Brigham Circle.
(3) Institute a separate bus service, low-frequency day-time service to travel Jackson Sq. via S. Huntingdon, Heath St., to Copley Sq. and Park St.
The basic rationale is that trips from Jamaica Plain to downtown should preferentially travel via the Orange Line; the hospital/medical demands on S. Huntingdon should not consume a disproportionate amount of transit resources.
Go forward, my ass. The really interesting part is that while the politicos want it, some people in the neighborhood is up in arms about it. When I was down there, there was a bunch of posters "Better Transit No Trolley" displayed in the store windows. This is kind of like the whole I-95 expressway scheme: the politicos wanted it, and neighborhoods don't want it built.
The reason the politically-connected people in the neighborhood wants it is because they're little kids whining "the T promised to put it in, so they should". And they think they'll get a better ride just because it's a trolley. They forgot to think about the fact that there would be no room for a dedicated ROW and thus a trolley would be as fast as a bus. It would make sense if they were able to do Central Sq., Cambridge type scheme: move the parking off to the side streets (and construct lots specifically for shoppers), ban parking on the main thorofare, and give the trolleys a dedicated lane. Wouldn't make sense without a dedicated ROW.
The T killed off all thoughts of A-line restoration, because they provided a bus service (#57 + Mass Pike Express) that was superior to the trolleys it replaced. It has not yet done this for the E-line. But on the other hand, the locals are to blame, too. The Orange Line high quality rapid transit lies less than 4 blocks away from the Arborway corridor.
The last I heard, there are disagreements even within the government as to whether it should go back or not.
gallery@subwayspot.com
Please stop using Subtalk to get my attention regarding SubwaySpot Community gallery issues you may be having.
No one else wants to hear about them.
OE comes with IE, latest version is 6.
Check Windows Update.
Yet the Concorde was not what you'd call a success. I suspect that a transoceanic rail tunnel would be another white elephant.
But the risks would be high ... "supersonic speeds require another critical step: eliminating the air -- and therefore air friction -- from the train's path. A vacuum would also save the tunnel from the destructive effects of a sonic boom, which, unchecked, could potentially rip the tunnel apart."
Also, if you notice where it crosses the Mid Atlantic ridge, it happens to be on land in Iceland. If you bring it across the penninsula between Keflavik and Reykjavik (I think it might be called Hveragaren), which was formed by the Mid Atlantic Ridge, then you cross the MAR on the surface, where the tubes can easily be maintained, and you are out of the water for only 20 miles or so, so tunnel construction for a specialized section can be minimized. Of course most of the population of Iceland lives in the southwest corner around Reykjavik so perhaps it'd make the most sense to run the line across the middle of the island, which is largely uninhabited.
If you figure the tunnel will be 21120000 feet long (4000 miles), and 10000 feet of tunnel will be layed for every week, then it'll take 2112 weeks, or 40 years and 218 days to complete. I think just under 2 miles of tunnel built per week might be kinda high, but with standardization and automation of the construction techniques, it might be further sped up.
There were people who believed a transcontinental railway was a white elephant.
And it's not like the Concorde was not a good idea, everyone on a trans-Atlantic flight would rather have wasted less time on the Concorde, but the high cost made that impossible. Air resistance increases exponentially with speed, so it requires more energy to accelerate to and then maintain a higher speed. The high speed also subjected the Concorde to heavy stresses, requiring too frequent maintenance to remain aloft and its size made it impossible to carry enough people in a flight to keep the cost down (making it bigger would have made the cost of maintaining and fueling the craft even more, and the fuel tank would have to be larger). Finally, because of the sonic boom, the Concorde was doomed only for flights across oceans between cities on either coast, they couldn't have mass produced them, because there were no takers (there's only so much of a market for $6000 flights between the US and Western Europe). The planes could never have been used on Trans-Pacific routes, since even though Trans-Pacific supersonic flight would be of greater benefit than Trans-Atlantic, the planes had barely the range to fly between New York and Paris, let alone between Los Angeles and Tokyo or Hong Kong.
Such a tunnel would solve the problems of air resistance and excessive fuel costs (energy would only be needed to accelerate the train, and to counter gravity and maintain it aloft, there would be no friction to work against) and such a train would be even faster than an SST jet.
The major problem with such an endeavor would be the enormous capital costs. The tunnel would have to be funded by international consortium including countries other than the US and UK, as this would in fact benefit the entire world (primarily North America and Europe).
The Concorde suffered from an inability to pay off it's own capital costs. The costs of maintaining the plane where such that even with the excessive price tag (the luxurious services offered to the passengers were a mere drop in the bucket), the plane never made enough profit to pay off its enormous R&D costs.
I wonder what sort of security might be required for a supersonic trans-Atlantic train, though.
Mark
But distance always mitigates the effect of speed. I think if this were tried at ground level there would be serious motion-sickness issues! Using a vacuum tunnel, or tube, is key as well--if they tried to run a supersonic train other than in a vacuum, the drag and the heating of the train would be horrendous (Concorde's nose heated up to 127 degrees Celsius at Mach 2, and that was in the thin air at 60,000 feet), and imagine the sonic booms (which presumably are not a problem in a vacuum, since the sonic boom is caused by the compression of the air that is not able to get out of the way of the object exceeding Mach 1).
At least this plan is better than the Discovery Channel special where they had it going across the abyssal plain with anchoring cables the whole way. Now if only somebody could kill the whole floating tube approach and just go with an immersed tube in a trench covered in gravel (like the BART tubes), it might just stand a chance of being built, relatively. It's not that far out there, this route, going via the GIUK line from Laborador barely has floor depths below one thousand feet. Working in less than 1000 feet isn't exactly easy, but it's much simpler than trying to build a floating tube tunnel over 13,000 ft depths.
Maybe by 2100 we'll have something like that...
Your pal,
Fred
Oh wait, maybe I better save up money to freeze myself and wait.
Physicists told symposium attendees of the American Association for the Advancement of Science that trains consisting of 200 cars would rocket passengers across the country underground at speeds of up to 14,000mph. The "subway cars" would be large vacuum tubes and would ride a wave of magnetic fields in a manner similar to surfboards riding waves. The fare would be about $1 a minute (there would never be any delays) and one main line with two feeder lines was proposed - from New York to Los Angeles via Dallas, with feeder lines from Chicago and Cleveland. The trip from New York to Los Angeles was estimated at 54 minutes costing $54, running at about 6,000mph, such that people’s weight would not increase at the higher speed. (And you thought the $1.50 fare was expensive!) Trains would run on a one-minute headway.
--Mark
Of course, this might require modifying the maglev equipment at least to the extent of installing longitudinal seating and standee straps.
(Anybody remember Harry Harrison's /A Transatlantic Tunnel! Hurrah!/, which was serialized in /Analog/ in 1972?)
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
-Chris
Costs more, but that was back when money grew on trees, and Americans would labor for 6 donuts per hour.
--Mark
Mark: The only evidence for a Staten Island connection that I know of is on the BMT Fourth Avenue Subway and not the IND Smith Street Line.
Hope you are doing well.
Larry, RedbirdR33
--Mark
Yes, I have seen the 4th ave "stubs" for the Staten Island connection, too.
--Mark
BTW, the T train is supposed to be the SAS (yeah, SAS, Hahahaha)
-Chris
BTW, the T train is supposed to be the SAS (yeah, SAS, Hahahaha)
When I see it is actually running [who knows when that would be] I'll believe it ;-).
In Brooklyn, a new IND division line would run from Houston St (via Essex St) to Utica Ave, then Flatbush Avenue, and terminate at Avenue U. The IRT Nostrand Avenue line would be extended to Voorhies Avenue in Sheepshead Bay, as subway to Ave T and elevated from there to Voorhies Avenue. The IND Smith St Line would be linked to the BMT's Culver Line at Cortelyou Road. A branch of the BMT Culver Line would extend from around 37th St, 10th Avenue and Fort Hamilton Parkway to the BMT's West End El at 86th Street. A connection would be built between the BMT's West End Line and the IND's South Brooklyn Line near Fort Hamilton Parkway. Finally, the original BMT Brighton Line along Franklin Ave would be extended to Lafayette Avenue to form a connection with the IND's Crosstown Line. Of these 6 proposals, only the IND/BMT linkup at Cortelyou Road would see the light of day, but not for another 14 years after Unification. One must wonder what the area of Avenue U and Flatbush Avenue, now the site of the Kings Plaza shopping mall, would have been like with an IRT line serving it.
The connection to the West end would have been from the lower level at Church Ave. AFAIK there are no bellmouths in the Prospect Park express tracks. [and yes, I've been through there.]
In Brooklyn, a new IND division line would run from Houston St (via Essex St) to Utica Ave, then Flatbush Avenue, and terminate at Avenue U.
So, this was the Utica ave subway that would come from the S4th street station?
The IND Smith St Line would be linked to the BMT's Culver Line at Cortelyou Road.
Today's Culver to S/Bklyn linkup. Right?
A branch of the BMT Culver Line would extend from around 37th St, 10th Avenue and Fort Hamilton Parkway to the BMT's West End El at 86th Street.
What? So, the Culver line links to the west End at 36th/9th, and then is designed to be linked to it again? What's this all about? This one I really can't envision in my mind.
Each of the four stamps will picture profile views of different subway cars used in Canada.
Has anyone heard if the US will be issuing a stamp for the anniversary of the New York Subway System?
Neat stuff,
B Bonnici
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Delete the space < a and also HERE< /a> and you're in business.
If I typed it without spaces, it would be formatted again.
I make pilgrimages to the Rockaway line about 2-3 times a year. Last year I went to the Rockaways 3 times, once being on a MoD trip. It's definetly not a photo spot I frequent.
One may be coming up when the weather improves. I have to check out that spot at Hamilton Beach.
Liberty Junction tower (transit employees only). Been there, done that !
Bill "Newkirk"
#3 West End Jeff
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"Press ANY key......WHERES THE ANY KEY?!?!"-Homer J. Simpson
-Chris
None of the above. Also check the archives.
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=679036
1000 VIA
1001 VIA
1002 VIA
1003 VIA
1004 VIA
1005 VIA
1006 VIA
1114 1204 BNNP 407 NP 209
1126 1021 SO 1703
1127 1022 CNOTP 3589
1131 1203 1113 NP 404
1132
1133 NYC PC
1133 1204 1114 BNNP 407 NP 209
1142 NYC PC 9080
1153
1155
1159 1100 SF 3650
1160
1162
1164 1101 ATSF 3651
1165
1167 Olympus CBQ 907
1168 ATSF 3681
1170 Silver Bear CBQ 903
1171 Silver Coyote CBQ 905
1172 Silver Treasure CBQ 908
1174 Argo CBQ 906
1176
1180
1181 NYC PC 9103
1181 1406 UASX 89530
1182 NYC PC 9112
1183 NYC 9103 PC 9113
1186 NYC PC 9120
1187 NYC PC 9121
1194
1199 NYC PC 9195
1203 1041 ATSF 3525
1204 1048 ATSF 3534
1205 1046 ATSF 3532
1206
1207 1066 ATSF 3552
1208 1037 ATSF 3521
1210
1211
1212
1213
1215
1216
1218
1221
1222
1223
1226
1228
1229
1231
1232
1235
1234 1050 SF 3536
1236
1237
1241 1020 SF 3500
1242
1245
1246
1247
1248
1249
1250
1251
1252
1255
1258
1260
1261
1267 SF
1268
1269
1272
1450 USA 89518
1454 USA 89543
1455 USA 89555
1610 USA 89516
1611 USA 89538
1612 USA 89527
1613 USA 89523
1614 USA 89552
1615 USA 89520
1616 USA 89508
1617 USA 89558
1618 SCL 5021
1619 SCL 5022
1620 SCL 5025
1621 SCL 5023
1622 SP 3103
1623 SP 3102
1624 SP 3105
1626 SCL 5019
1627 SCL 5020
1628 USA 89567
1629 USA 89513
1630 USA 89522
1701 4645 4448 UP 5516
1702 4820 4727 ATSF 2827
1703 4722 4867 ATSF 2855 TNO 449 SP 2237
1704 4732 4815 ATSF 2821
1705 4728 4863 ATSF 2851
1706 4701 4854 ATSF 2842
1707 4702 4858 ATSF 2846
1708 4703 4871 ATSF 2859
1709 4413 4016 SP 2365
1710 4715 4828 ATSF 2836
1711 4718 4813 ATSF 2819
1712 4720 4859 ATSF 2847
1714 4724 4862 ATSF 2850 TNO 445 SP 2233
1715 4865 4726 ATSF 2853
1716 4730 4869 ATSF 2857 2843
1717 4735 4851 ATSF 2838 2374
1718 4736 4866 ATSF 2854 2372
1720 4864 4738 ATSF 2852 2376
2376 TNO 449 SP 2237
1721 Silver Salon CBQ 801 2366
5509
1721 4002 4434 SP 2371 5522
1722 SP 2374 5517
1723 SP 2372 5520
1724 SP 2376 2372 TNO 445 SP 2233
1725 SP 2376 2860
1726 4015 4426 SP 2363 2370
1730 4629 4440 UP 5508 2362
1731 4630 4450 UP 5518
1732 4631 4451 UP 5519
1733 4632 4457 UP 5525
1734 4634 4446 UP 5514
1735 4635 4453 UP 5521
1736 4636 4459 UP 5527
1738 4641 4447 UP 5515
1740 SP 2372
1750 1713 4723 4855 ATSF
1751 1722 4003 4437 SP
1752 1723 4004 4435 SP
1753 1724 4006 4439 SP
1754 1725 4008 4424 SP
1755 1727 4020 4429 SP
1756 1728 4627 4441 UP
1757 1729 4628 4454 UP
1758 1737 4638 4449 UP
1759 1739 4643 4452 UP
1760 1740 4648 4420 SP
1761 1719 4737 4872 ATSF
1762 4009 SP
1763 4017 SP
1800
1801
1802
1850
1851
1852 4413 4409 UP
1853
1854
1855 1225
1856 1219
1857 1209 1038 ATSF 3511
2000 PC 4200 Dunkirk Harbor NYC 10810 10364
2001 PC 4202 Fairport NYC 10812 10360
2002 PC 4204 Monroe Harbor NYC 10814 10377
2003 PC 4205 South Haven Harbor NYC 10815 10377
2004 PC 4206 Toledo Harbor NYC 10816 10379
2005 PC 4207 Tonawanda Harbor NYC 10817 10380
2006 PC 4208 Vermilion Harbor NYC 10818 10372
2020 2095 Silver Siesta BNQ 4900
2085 2021 Silver Slumber BNQ 4901
2094 2022 Silver Rest BNQ 4902
2095 2023 Silver Repose BNQ 4903
2080 2024 Loch Sloy BNNP 325
2088 2025 Loch Leven BNNP 326
2084 2026 Loch Lomond BNNP 327
2087 2027 Loch Ness BNNP 328
2090 2028 Loch Tarbert BNNP 329 MP 699 Southland
2093 2029 Loch Katrine BNNP 330 BO 7702 Restland
2091 2030 Loch Lochy BNNP 332 BO 7704 Thriftland
2089 2031 Loch Tay BNNP 333 NYC 10800
2082 2032 Loch Rannoch BN 1489 NP 334 NYC 10801
2092 2033 Loch Arkaig BNNP 335 NYC 10802
2034 Loch Awe BNQ 336 NP 336 NYC 10803
2035 Loch Long BNNP 331 BO 7703 Sleepland
2096 Slumberland BO 7700
2097 Dreamland BO 7701
2536 Thrush BO 7109 SCL 6706
2219 Indian Song ATSF 911
2220 Silver Quail CBQ 451
2221 10021 Silver Thrush CBQ 452
2222 Silver Pelican CBQ 454
2230 2254 Star Scene UP 1705
2231 Hialeah SCL 6101
2232 Ocala SCL
2260 Placid Bay UP 1501
2261 Placid Harbor UP 1502
2262 Placid Haven UP 1503
2263 Placid Lake UP 1504
2264 Placid Meadow UP 1505
2265 Placid Scene UP 1596
2266 Placid Sea UP 1507
2267 Placid Vale UP 1508
2268 Placid Valley UP 1509
2269 Placid Waters UP 1510
Heritage 10X6 sleepers will come soon
3100 USA 89526
3101 USA 89536
3102 USA 89507
3103 USA 89553
3104 USA 89539
3105 USA 89537
3106 8106 ATSF 1562
3107 8101 ATSF 1556
3108 8104 ATSF 1559
3109 8105 ATSF 1560
3110 8107 ATSF 1564
3111 8102 ATSF 1557
3112 8103 ATSF 1558
3113 SP 2992
3114 SP 2991
3117 SP 2990
3118 PC 7130
3119 PC 7140
3120 PC 7134
3121 PC 7132
3122 PC 7144
3123 PC 7131
3124 PC 7145
3125 PC 7141
3126 PC 7133
3127 PC 7137
4000 series Heritage LD coaches will be added later
6300
6301
6302
6303
6304
6305
6306
6307
SF
6351 Tecolote Canyon
6352 Topanga Canyon
SF
6361 Treasure Island
6362 Angel Island
SF
6400
6401
6402
6403
6404
6405
6406
6407
6408
6409
6410
6411
6412
6413
6414
SF
6451 Ocean Beach
6452 Mission Beach
6453 Pacific Beach
SF
6461 Pebble Beach
6462 Moss Beach
6463 Muir Beach
6464 Stinson Beach
6465 Moonstone Beach
SF
6800
6801
6802
6803
6804
6805
6806
6807
SF
6851 Balboa Park
6852 Elysian Park
SF
6900
6901
6902
6903
6904
6905
6906
6907
6908
SF
6951 Point Loma
6952 Point Vicente
6953 Point Conception
SF
6961 Point Arguello
6962 Point Bonita
6963 Point Reyes
6964 Point Arena
6965 Point St. George
7000 series Heritage SD coaches will be added later
8001 Sacramento River
8002 San Joaquin River
8003 American River
8004 San Gabriel River
8005 Kern River
8006 Merced River
8007 Russian River
8008 Stanislaus River
8009 Santa Ana River
8010 Truckee River
8011 Yuba River
8012 San Lorenzo River
8013 Klamath River
8014 Colorado River
8015 Salinas River
8016 San Luis Rey River
8017 Tuolumne River
8018 Trinity River
8019 Eel River
8020 Feather River
8021 Kings River
8022 Pit River
8023 Calaveras River
8024 Cosumnes River
8025 Mokelumne River
8026 Petaluma River
8027 Smith River
8028 Mad River
8029 Pajaro River
8030 Noyo River
8031 Nattole River
8032 Santa Clara River
CA
8201 San Francisco Bay
8202 San Diego Bay
8203 Bodega Bay
8204 Drakes Bay
8205 Monterey Bay
8206 Humbolt Bay
CA
8301 Mount Whitney
8302 Mount Shasta
8303 Mount Diablo
8304 Mount Wilson
8305 Mount Tamalpais
8306 Mount Soledad
8307 Mount Baldy
8308 Mount San Gorgonio
8309 Mount San Jacinto
8310 Mount Hamilton
8311 Mount Palomar
8312 Mount Inyo
8313 Mount Lassen
8314 Mount Pinos
CA
8801 San Joaquin Valley
8802 Sacramento Valley
8803 San Gabriel Valley
8804 Napa Valley
8805 Yosemite Valley
8806 Salinas Valley
8807 Imperial Valley
8808 Coachella Valley
8809 Santa Maria Valley
8810 Owens Valley
8811 Antelope Valley
8812 Sonoma Valley
8813 San Fernando Valley
8814 Mission Valley
8000 SAL 6100 SCL 5900
8001 SAL 6101 SCL 5901
8002 SAL 6102 SCL 5902
8003 SAL 6103 SCL 5903
8004 FEC Fort Lauderdale SAL 6115 SCL 5904
8005 ACL New York SCL 5905
8006 ACL Boston SCL 5906
8007 ACL Newark SCL 5907
8008 ACL Baltimore SCL 5908
8009 SAL 6104 SCL 5909
8010 SAL 6105 SCL 5910
8011 SAL 6106 SCL 5911
8012 SAL 6107 SCL 5912
8013 SAL 6108 SCL 5913
8014 SAL 6109 SCL 5914
8015 SAL 6110 SCL 5915
8016 SAL 6111 SCL 5916
8017 SAL 6112 SCL 5917
8018 SAL 6113 SCL 5918
8019 SAL 6114 SCL 5919
8020 FEC Fort Dallas SAL 6116 SCL 5920
8021 FEC Fort Matanzas SAL 6117 SCL 5921
8022 FEC Fort San Marco SAL 6118 SCL 5922
8023 ACL Washington SCL 5923
8024 ACL Tampa SCL 5924
8025 LN 2790
8026 AWP 501
8029 NYC 694 PC 4545
8030 ATSF 1477
8031 ATSF 1479
8032 ATSF 1480
8033 ATSF 1481
8034 ATSF 1483
8035 ATSF 1486
8036 ATSF 1491
8037 ATSF 1492
8038 ATSF 1493
8039 ATSF 1494
8040 ATSF 1495
8041 ATSF 1496
8042 ATSF 1497
8043 ATSF 1498
8044 LA Mountain Lodge KCS 56
8061 SP 10211
8064 SP 10214
8065 Lake McDonald GN 1151
8066 Lake Chelan GN 1152
8067 L:ake Josephine GN 1153
8068 Lake Wenatchee GN 1251
8069 Lake Union GN 1253
8070 ATSF 601
8071 ATSF 602
8072 ATSF 603
8073 ATSF 604
8074 ATSF 605
8075 ATSF 606
8080 ACL Atlanta SCL 5950
8081 ACL Birmingham SCL 5951
8082 ACL LaGrange SCL 5952
8083 ACL Greenville SCL 5953
8084 ACL Moultrie SCL 5954
8085 ACL Talladega SCL 5955
8086 ACL Plant City SCL 5956
8087 ACL Fitzgerald SCL 5957
8088 ACL Tarboro SCL 5958
8089 FEC Fort Ribault SAL 6119 SCL 5959
8090 FEC Fort Drum SAL 6120 SCL 5960
8091 ACL Naples SCL 5961
8092 UP 4803
8093 UP 4804
8094 UP 4809
8095 UP 4811
8096 UP 4812
8097 UP 4816
8099 NW 493 General William Mahone
8100 ATSF 1551
8110 ATSF 1569
8111 ATSF 1570
8112 ATSF 1571
8113 ATSF 1572
8114 ATSF 1573
8115 ATSF 1574
8116 ATSF 1575
8117 ATSF 1576
8118 ATSF 1577
8150 GN Running Crane Lake
8151 GN Hidden Lake
8152 GN Iceberg Lake
8153 GN Whitefish Lake
8310 Wabash 51 NW 1051
8320 SP 10407
8321 SP 10408
8322 SP 10409
8323 SP 10410
8324 SP 10411
8340 UP 5008
8341 UP 5010
8342 UP 5009
8350 NP 494
8351 NP 495
8352 NP 496
8353 NP 497
8354 NP 498
8355 CBQ 499
8380 MC 15 Merry Meeting CEL 603 Merry Journey LN 2800 Dixie Traveller
8381 MC 16 Arundel CEL 604 Merry Meeting LN 2801 Dixie Journey
8398 UP 4001
8399 UP 4003
8500 SP 10204
8501 SP 10208 Golden Nectar
8502 SP 10402 Golden Trencher
8503 SP 10403 Golden Ladle
8504 SP 10202
10209 SP 10209
8400
8501 8055 Silver Tureen CBQ 202
8502 8053 Silver Cuisine CBQ 198
8503 8054 Silver Chef CBQ 201
8506 8048 NP 462 BN 1296
8509 8046 NP 460
8511 8333 NYC 454 PC 4554
8512 8335 NYC 463 PC 4563
8513 8337 NYC 465 4565
8514 8338 NYC 466 PC 4566
8515 8339 NYC 457 PC 4557
8519 8330 NYC 450 PC 4550
8521 8330 SOU 3306
8524 8383 SOU 3309
8526 8060 SP 10211
8528 8063 SP 10213
8529 8384 CNOTP 3869
H TM DM
8504 8051 Silver Restaurant CBQ 194
8505 8045 NP 458
8507 8049 NP 463 BN 1296
8510 8050 Silver Café CBQ 193
8527 8062 SP 10212
8530
8531
8532
H G TM DN
8551 8500 Silver Diner 8051 CBQ
8552 8508 8047 NP 461
8553 8516 8331 PC 4552 NYC 452
H G DN
8550 8048 BN 1296
8554 8517 8336 NYC 461 PC 4561
8555 8518 8332 NYC 453 PC 4553
8556 8520 8334 NYC 464 PC 4564
8557 8523 8382 SOU 3308
8558 8522 8381 SOU 3307
8559 8060 SP 10210
8800 8801 PC NYC 4610
8801 8800 PC NYC 4611
8802 8803 PC NYC 4616
8803 8802 PC NYC 4617
8804 8805 PC NYC 4620
8805 8804 PC NYC 4621
8806 8807 PC NYC 4622
8807 8806 PC NYC 4623
9200 Moonlight dome SCL 6800 BO 7600
9201 Starlight dome SCL 6801 BO 7601
9202 Sunlight dome SCL 6802 BO 7602
h sp dm
9210 BNQ 305
9211 BNSPS 306
9212 BNNP 309
9213 BNNP 310
9214 BNNP 313
h sp dm
9220 BNNP 375 NP 307
9221 BNNP 376 NP 308
9222 BNNP 377 NP 311
9223 BNNP 378 NP 312
9224 BNNP 379 NP 314
9225 BNQ 380 CBQ 304
h bl obs gm
9250 Silver Horizon
9251 Silver Penthouse
9252 Silver Solarium
9253 Silver Lookout
h pr obs fm
9300 Silver View BNQ 360
9301 Silver Vista BNQ 361
9310 NW 1601 wabash
9320 Silver Terrace BNQ 365
9321 Silver Tower BNQ 366
dm
9330 Silver Chateau BNQ 235
9331 Silver Veranda BNQ 236
h dm bl
9350 ATSF 500
9351 ATSF 501
9352 ATSF 502
9353 ATSF 503
9354 ATSF 504
9355 ATSF 505
9360 Glacier View BNGN 1390
9361 Ocean View BNGN 1391
9362 Mountain View BNGN 1392
9363 Lake View BNGN 1393
9364 Prarie View BNGN 1394
9365 River View BNGN 1395
h dm ch
9400 Silver Castle BNQ 3480 CBQ 4709
9401 Silver Dome BNQ 4714 CBQ Silver Alchemy
9403
9420 High Dome BO 5550
9421 Sky Dome BO 5551
9450 Silver Bridle BNQ 4716 CBQ
9451 Silver Lodge BNQ 4681 CBQ 4717
9452 Silver Lariat BNQ *
9453 Silver Ranch BNQ *
9454 Silver Rifle BNQ *
9455 Silver Saddle BNQ *
9456 Silver Stirrup BNQ *
9457 Silver Buckle BNQ *
9458 Silver Brand BNQ *
9460 BNGN 1320
9461 BNGN 1321
9462 BNGN 1322
9463 BNGN 1323
9464 BNGN 1324
9465 BNGN 1325
9466 BNGN 1326
9467 BNGN 1327
9468 BNGN 1328
9469 BNGN 1329
9470 BNGN 1330
9471 BNGN 1331
9472 BNSPS 1332
9473 BNQ 1333
9474 BNQ 1334
9475 BNQ 1335
9476 BNNP 549
9477 BNNP 550
9478 BNNP 551
9479 BNNP 552
9480 BNNP 553
9481 BNNP 554
9482 BNNP 555
9483 BNNP 556
9484 BNQ 557
9485 BNQ 558
9486 BNSPS 559
9500 Silver Bluff BNQ 4723
9501 Silver Glade BNQ 4724
9540 Silver Island BNQ 4725
9541 Silver River BNQ 4726
9542 Silver Stream BNQ 4727
9543 Silver Wave BNQ 4728
9544 Silver Scene BNQ 5484 CBQ 4729
9545 Silver Vision BNQ 4725
9560 NW 1610 Wabash 200
9561 NW 1611 Wabash 201
9562 NW 1612 Wabash 202
9800 Silver Garden BNQ 320
9801 Silver Patio BNQ 321
9810 Silver Club BNQ 250
9811 Silver Lounge BNQ 251
9812 Silver Club BNQ 252 WP 831
9813 Silver Cup BNQ 253
9814 Silver Kettle BNQ 254
9630 824 PRR PC
9631 817 PRR PC
9632 829 PRR PC
9633 830 PRR PC
9634 810 PRR PC
9635 823 PRR PC
9636 816 PRR PC
9637 811 PRR PC
9638 812 PRR PC
9639 802 PRR PC
9640 808 PRR PC
9641 805 PRR PC
9642 803 PRR PC
9643 815 PRR PC
9644 804 PRR PC
9645 800 PRR PC
9646 813 PRR PC
9647 801 PRR PC
9648 820 PRR PC
9649 807 PRR PC
9650 819 PRR PC
9651 806 PRR PC
9652 821 PRR PC
9800 863 PRR PC
9809 809 PRR PC
9822 822 PRR PC
9825 825 PRR PC
9826 826 PRR PC
9827 827 PRR PC
9828 828 PRR PC
20008
20009
20010
20013
20014
20015
20016
20017
20018
20019
20020
20021
20022
20023
20024
20025
20026
20027
20028
20029
20030
20031
20032
20033
20034
20035
20036
20037
20038
20039
20040
20041
20042
20043
20044
20045
20046
20047
20048
20049
20050
20051
20052
20053
20138
20139
20141
20160
20162
20163
20222
20223
20224
20225
20250 20000
20251 20001
20252 20003
20253 20005
20254 20006
20255 20012
20906
20907
20908
20909
20910
20911
20912
20913
20914
20915
20916
20917
20918
20919
20920
20921
20922
20923
20924
20925
20926
20927
20928
20929
20930
20931
20932
20933
20934
20935
20936
20971
20972
20973
20974
20975
20976
20977
20978
20979
20980
20981
20982
21001
21002
21003
21004
21005
21006
21010
21012
21013
21014
21016
21018
21019
21020
21021
21022
21023
21025
21026
21027
21028
21029
21030
21032
21033
21034
21035
21036
21038
21039
21040
21041
21042
21043
21044
21045
21046
21047
21048
21050
21051
21052
21053
21054
21055
21056
21057
21059
21060
21061
21062
21063
21064
21065
21066
21067
21068
21069
21070
21071
21073
21075
21076
21077
21080
21081
21082
21083
21084
21086
21087
21088
21089
21090
21091
21092
21094
21095
21099
21100
21101
21103
21104
21105
21105
21107
21109
21110
21111
21112
21113
21114
21115
21116
21117
21118
21119
21121
21122
21123
21124
21126
21128
21129
21130
21131
21132
21133
21134
21135
21136
21137
21138
21139
21140
21141
21142
21144
21145
21146
21148
21149
21150
21151
21152
21153
21154
21155
21156
21157
21158
21159
21160
21161
21162
21163
21164
21165
21167
21168
21169
21170
21171
21172
21173
21174
21175
21176
21177
21178
21179
21181
21182
21183
21184
21185
21186
21187
21188
21189
21190
21191
21192
21193
21194
21195
21196
21197
21198
21199
21200
21201
21202
21203
21205
21206
21207
21208
21209
21211
21212
21213
21214
21215
21216
21217
21218
21219
21220
21221
21222
21223
21224
21126
21227
21229
21230
21231
21232
21233
21234
21235
21236
21238
21239
21240
21241
21242
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21616
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21635
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21722
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21724
21725
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21970
21971
21972
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21977
21978
21979
21980
21981
21982
21983
21984
21985
21986
21987
21988
21989
25000
25001
25002
25003
25004
25005
25006
25007
25008
25009
25010
25011
25012
25013
25014
25015
25016
25017
25018
25019
25021
25022
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25025
25027
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25041
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25047
25048
25050
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25055
25056
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25078
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25081
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26020 25020
26024 25024
26026 25026
26032 25032
26049 25049
26057 25057
26067 25067
26108 25108
28000 Miami Club
28001 Atlanta Club
28002
28003
28004
28005 Chicago Club
28006 Richmond Club
28007 New York Club
28008 Pittsburgh Club
28009 Albany Club
28010
28011
28012 Meridian Club
28013 Boston Club
28014
28015
28016
28017
28018 Jacksonville Club
28019 Charlotte Club
28020
28021 Tampa Club
28022 South Bend Club
28023
28024 Philadelphia Club
28303
28305
28350
28351
28352
28353
28354
28355
28356
28357
28358
28359
28360
28361
28362
28363
28364 20255
28365 20229
28366 20250
28367 20011
28368 20235
28369 20129
28390
28394
31005
31006
31007
31012
31016
31018
31021
31026
31028
31034
31036
31042
31044
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31047
31500 31000
31501 31001
31502 31002
31503 31003
31508 31008
31509 31009
31510 31010
31511 31011
31513 31013
31514 31014
31515 31015
31517 31017
31519 31319
31520 31020
31522 31022
31523 31023
31524 31024
31525 31025
31527 31027
31529 31029
31530 31030
31531 31031
31532 31032
31533 31033
31535 31035
31537 31037
31538 31038
31539 31039
31540 31040
31541 31041
31543 31043
31545 31045
31590 34094
31591 34100
31592 34060
32000 Acadia
32001 Arches
32002 Badlands
32003 Edward Ullman
32004 Big Bend
32005 Biscayne
32006 Bryce Canyon
32007 Canyonlands
32008
32009 George M. Pullman
32010
32011 Channel Islands
32012 Crater Lake
32013 Denali
32014 Everglades
32015 Gates of the Arctic
32016 Waterton Glacier
32017 Glacier Bay
32018 Grand Canyon
32019 Grand Teton
32020 Great Basin
32021 Great Smokies
32022 Haleakala
32023 Hawaii Volcanoes
32024 Hot Springs
32025 Isle Royale
32026 Katmai
32027 Kings Canyon
32028 Lassen Volcanic
32029 Mammoth Cave
32030 Mesa Verde
32031 Mount Rainier
32032 North Cascades
32033 Olympic
32034 Petrified Forest
32035 Redwood
32036 Rocky Mountain
32037 Sequoia
32038 Shenandoah
32039 Theodore Roosevelt
32040 Virgin Islands
32041 Voyageurs
32042 Wrangell - St. Elias
32043 Yellowstone
32044 Yosemite
32045 Zion Park
32046 Assateaque Island
32047 Canaveral
32048 Cape Cod
32049 Cape Hatteras
32050 Cape Lookout
32051 Capitol Reef
32052 Fire Island
32053 Gulf Islands
32054 Padre Island
32055 Point Reyes
32056 Apostle Islands
32057 Indiana Dunes
32058 Pictured Rock
32059 Sleeping Bear Dunes
32060 Carlsbad Caverns
32061 New River Gorge
32062 Arapaho
32063 Flaming Gorge
32064 Hell's Canyon
32065 Mount Rogers
32066 Oregon Dunes
32067 Sawtooth
32068 Wind Cave
32069 Seneca Rocks
32070 Alabama
32071 Arizona
32072 Arkansas
32073 California
32074 Colorado
32075 Connecticut
32076 Delaware
32077 District of Columbia
32078 Florida
32079 Georgia
32080 Idaho
32081 Illinois
32082 Indiana
32083 Iowa
32084 Kansas
32085 Kentucky
32086 Louisiana
32087 Maine
32088 Maryland
32089 Massachusetts
32090 Michigan
32091 Minnesota
32092 Mississippi
32093 Missouri
32094 Montana
32095 Nebraska
32096 Nevada
32097 New Hampshire
32098 New Jersey
32099 New Mexico
32100 New York
32101 North Carolina
32102 North Dakota
32103 Ohio
32104 Oklahoma
32105 Oregon
32106 Pennsylvania
32107 Rhode Island
32108 South Carolina
32109 South Dakota
32110 Tennessee
32111 Texas
32112 Utah
32113 Vermont
32114 Virginia
32115 Washington
32116 West Virginia
32117 Wisconsin
32118 Wyoming
32500 Palm Bay
32501 Palm Beach
32502 W. Graham Claytor Jr.
32503 A. Phillip Randolph
32504 Palm Harbor
32505 Palm Springs
33000
33001
33002
33003
33004
33005
33006
33007
33008
33009
33010
33011
33012
33013
33014
33015
33016
33017
33018
33019
33020
33021
33022
33023
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33025
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33028
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33033
33034
33036
33037
33038
33039
33040
33041
33042
33043
33044
33045
33046
33047
33048
33049
33035 33035
33100 38012
33101 38002
33102 38013
33103 38029
33104 38027
34000
34001
34002
34004
34005
34006
34008
34010
34012
34014
34016
34018
34020
34022
34024
34026
34027
34028
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34030
34031
34032
34033
34034
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34036
34037
34038
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34045
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34050
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34076
34077
34078
34079
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34081
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34092
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34096
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34101
34102
34103
34105
34106
34107
34109
34111
34113
34114
34116
34117
34118
34119
34120
34121
34122
34123
34124
34125
34126
34127
34128
34129
34130
34131
34132
34133
34134
34135
34136
34137
34138
34139
34504 34104
34508 34108
34510 34110
34512 34112
34515 34115
35001 34003
35002 34007
35003 34009
35004 34011
35005 34013
35006 34015
35007 34017
35008 34019
35009 34021
35010 34023
35011 34025
38000
38001
38003
38004
38005
38006
38007
38008
38009
38010
38011
38014
38015
38016
38017
38018
38019
38020
38021
38022
38023
38024
38025
38026
38028
38030
38031
38032
38033
38034
38035
38036
38037
38038
38039
38040
38041
38042
38043
38044
38045
38046
38047
38048
38049
38050
38051
38052
38053
38054
38055
38056
38057
38058
38059
38060
38061
38062
38063
38064
38065
38066
38067
38068
39000
39001
39002
39003
39004
39005
39006
39007
39008
39009
39010
39011
39012
39013
39014
39015
39016
39017
39018
39019
39020
39021
39022
39023
39024
39025
39026
39027
39028
39029
39030
39031
39032
39033
39034
39035
39036
39037
39038
39039
39040
39041
39042
39043
39044
39045
39046
9900 526
9901 527
9922 548
39900 9941 701
39901 9943 703
39902 9902 528
39903 9903 529
39904 9904 530
39905 9905 531
39906 9906 532
39907 9907 533
39908 9908 534
39909 9909 535
39910 9910 536
39911 9911 537
39912 9912 538
39913 9913 539
39914 9914 540
39915 9915 541
39916 9916 542
39917 9917 543
39918 9918 544
39919 9919 545
39920 9920 546
39921 9921 547
39923 9923 549
39925 9925 725
39926 9926 726
39927 9927 727
39928 9928 728
39929 9929 729
39930 9930 730
39931 9931 731
39932 9932 732
39933 9933 733
39934 9934 734
39935 9935 735
39936 9936 736
39937 9951 711
39938 9955 715
39940 9940 700
39942 9942 702
39944 9944 704
39945 9945 705
39946 9946 706
39947 9947 707
39948 9948 708
39949 9949 709
39950 9950 710
39952 9952 712
39953 9953 713
39954 9954 714
39956 9956 716
39957 9957 717
39958 9958 718
39959 9959 719
39960 9960 720
39961 9961 721
39962 9962 722
39963 9963 723
39964 9964 724
HL TG
39970 9970 575
39971 9971 576
39972 9972 577
39973 9973 578
39974 9974 579
39975 9975 580
HL DN
39980 9980 650
39981 9981 651
39982 9982 652
39983 9983 653
39984 9984 654
39985 9985 655
48256 43010
43002
43003
43004
43005
43006
43007
43008
43010
43011
43012
43013
43014
43015
43016
43017
43018
43019
43020
43021
43022
43023
43024
43025
43026
43027
43028
43029
43030
43031
43032
43033
43034
43035
43036
43037
43038
43039
43040
43041
43042
43043
43351
43352
43353
43354
43355
43356
43357
43358
43359
43360 43306
43361 48234
43362 48227
43363
43364
43365
43366
43367
44019
44020
44021
44022
44023
44024
44025
44026
44027
44028
44029
44030
44031
44032
44033
44034
44035
44036
44037
44038
44039
44040
44041
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44043
44044
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44046
44047
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44049
44050
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44262
44263
44264
44265
44266
44267
44268
44269
44270
44271
44272
44273
44274
44273
44276
44277
44278
44279
44550 814 PRR PC
44551 818 PRR PC
44552 880 PRR PC
44553 884 PRR PC
44554 888 PRR PC
44555 889 PRR PC
44556 885 PRR PC
44557 882 PRR PC
44600
44601
44602
44603
44604
44605
44606
44607
44608
44609
44610
44611
44612
44613
44614
44615
44616
44617
44619
44620
44621
44622
44623
44624
44625
44626
44627
44628
44629
44630
44631
44632
44633
44634
44636
44637
44638
44638
44642
44643
44644
44645
44646
44647
44648
44651
44652
44654
44655
44656
44657
44658
44659
44664
44670
44671
44672
44673
44674
44676
44677
44678
44679
44680
44682
44683
44684
44685
44686
44687
44688
44689
44690
44691
44692
44693
44694
44695
44696
44700
44701
44702
44703
44704
44705
44706
44707
44708
44709
44710
44711
44712
44713
44714
44715
44716
44717
44718
44719
44721
44722
44723
44724
44725
44726
44727
44728
44729
44789
44790
44791
44792
44793
44794
44795
44796
44797
44798
44799
44834
44835
44836
44837
44838
44839
44840
44841
44842
44843
44844
44845
44846
44847
44848
44849
44850
44851
44852
44853
44854
44855
44856
44857
44858
44859
44860
44861
44862
44863
44864
44865
44866
44867
44868
44869
44870
44871
44872
44873
44874
44875
44876
44877
44878
44879
44880
44881
44882
44883
44884
44885
44886
44887
44943
48110
48111
48112
48113
48114
48115
48116
48117
48118
48119
48120
48121
48122
48123 20123
48124
48125
48126 20126
48127
48128
48129
48130
48131
48132
48133
48134
48135
48136
48137
48138
48139
48140 20140
48141
48142
48143 20143
48150
48151
48152
48154
48155
48156
48158
48159
48160 43027
48161
48162
48163
48164
48165
48166
48167
48201
48202
48203
48204
48205
48206
48207
48208
48209
48210
48211
48213
48214
48215
48216
48217
48218
48219
48220
48221
48222
48223
48224
48225
48226
48227
48228
48229
48230
48231
48232
48233
48234
48235
48236
48237
48238
48239
48240
48241
48256
48910
48911
48912
48913
48914
48915
48916
48917
48918
48919
48920
48921
48922
48923
48924
48925
48926
48927
48928
48929
48930
48931
48932
48974
48975
48976
48977
48978
48979
48980
48981
48982
48983
48984
48985
48986
48987
48988
48989
48990
48991
48992
HZ
51000 54071
51001 54046
51002 54019
51003 54060
HZ
51500 54502
51501 54570
51502 54569
51503 54559
HZ F
53001
53002
53003
53004
53005
53006
53007
HZ F
53500
53501
53502
53503 Legoland
53504 San Luis Obispo
53505
53506
53507
53509
53000
53508
54000
54001
54002
54003
54004
54005
54006
54007
54008
54009
54010
54011
54012
54013
54014
54015
54016
54017
54018
54020
54021
54022
54023
54024
54025
54026
54027
54028
54029
54030
54031
54032
54033
54034
54035
54036
54037
54038
54039
54040
54041
54042
54043
54044
54045
54047
54048
54049
54050
54051
54052
54053
54054
54055
54056
54057
54058
54059
54061
54062
54063
54064
54065
54066
54067
54501
54503
54504
54505
54506
54507
54508
54509
54510
54511
54512
54513
54514
54515
54516
54517
54518
54519
54520
54521
54522
54523
54524
54525
54526
54527
54528
54529
54530
54531
54532
54533
54534
54535
54536
54537
54538
54539
54540
54541
54542
54543
54544
54545
54546
54547
54548
54549
54550
54551
54552
54553
54554
54555
54556
54557
54558
54560
54561
54562
54563
54564
54565
54566
54567
54568
54571
54572
54573
54574
54575
54576
54577
54578
54579
54580
54581
54582
54583
54584
62000 American View
62001 Atlantic View
62002 Autumn View
62003 Bay View
62004 Beach View
62005 Cape View
62006 College View
62007 Colonial View
62008 Eagle View
62009 Evening View
62010 Forest View
62011 Gulf View
62012 Harbor View
62013 Harvest View
62014 Imperial View
62015 Island View
62016 Lake View
62017 Majestic View
62018 Meadow View
62019 Metropolitan View
62020 Moonlight View
62021 Morning View
62022 Mountain View
62023 Mystic View
62024 National View
62025 Northern View
62026 Ocean View
62027 Orchard View
62028 Palisades View
62029 Palm View
62030 Patriot View
62031 Prairie View
62032 River View
62033 Scenic view
62034 Sea View
62035 Shore View
62036 Skyline View
62037 Southern View
62038 Spring View
62039 Stream View
62040 Summer View
62041 Summit View
62042 Sunrise View
62043 Sunset View
62044 Sylvan View
62045 Tower View
62046 Tranquil View
62047 Village View
62048 Wayside View
62049 Winter View
62090 2300 Western View * Neither 62090 nor Western View were applied to 2300
62091 2301 Eastern View
81000 21210
81001 21093
81002 21074
81500 44932
81501 44951
81502 44949
81503 44935
81504 44945
81505 44927
81506 44720
81507 44931
81508 44665
81509 44668
81510 44805
82000 21143
82001 21247
82002 21049
82003 21007
82004 21037
82005 21602
82006 21097
82007 21011
82008 21102
82009 21078
82010 21253
82011 21262
82012 21024
82013 21600
82014 21079
82015 21108
82016 21096
82017 21601
82018 21085
82019 21166
82020 21605
82021 21120
82022 21225
82023 21603
82024 21604
82025 21258
82026 21098
82027 21606
82028 21607
82029 21608
82030 21009
82031 21125
82032 21611
82033 21609
82034 21610
82035 21612
82036 21613
82037 21008
82038 21180
82039 21614
82040 21615
82041 21617
82042 21619
82043 21620
82044 21621
82045 21622
82046 21623
82047 21624
82048 21625
82049 21626
82050 21627
82051 21628
82052 21629
82053 21630
82054 21631
82055 21632
82056 21633
82057 21634
82058 21639
82059 21636
82060 21638
82061 21642
82062 21643
82063 21256
82064 21646
82065 21648
82066 21645
82067 21637
82068 21651
82069 21654
82070 21652
82060 21638
82061 21642
82062 21643
82063 21256
82064 21646
82065 21648
82066 21645
82067 21637
82068 21651
82069 21654
82070 21652
82071 21655
82072 21656
82073 21657
82074 21644
82075 21670
82076 21674
82077 21000
82078 21017
82079 21250
82080 21237
82081 21072
82082 21031
82083 21260
82084 21228
82085 21147
82086 21058
82087 21015
82088 21204
82089 21283
82090 21127
82091 20179
82092 20173
82500 44174
82501 44208
82502 44681
82503 44618
82504 44635
82505 44640
82506 44641
82507 44650
82508 44649
82509 44653
82510 44660
82511 44661
82512 44663
82513 44666
82514 44662
82515 44667
82516 44669
82519 44675
82520 44249
85000 20131
85001 20137
85002 20128
85003 20142
85004 20130
85005 20238
85500 48157
85501 48153
85502 43009
Car descriptions have been omitted from this posting due to formatting issues
That's not a "roster". It is just a "number list". Big difference in my book.
Here's what you're looking for.
AEM7
I admit to trying to be a "big shot" by on these boards; but I never put any information that was not available by just walking into the building and looking around the lobby.
I have not read any of the subway or train websites since May '03, so if I have posted old info now, I apologize.
Unless the MTA suits know who you really are now, feel free to contribute.
All 7 trains had to go express after that.Unforturantely there were 3 locals caught up in this problem.One was on the lcl track at 61St,the other at 69St on the lcl track and wanna guess where the 3rd was? No? Well.....IT WAS ABOUT 10-15FT AWAY FROM THE TRAIN THAT WENT BIE!!!! That train was about 1 1/2 cars into the station!As I went downstairs to catch a 71Av bound R or V,I watched people going up to the 7 platform and knowing that they didnt know what was going on,I felt sorry for them.Hope the situation didnt last much longer,otherwise I'm willing to bet there was lots of ranting and raving from people just wanting to get home.
Da Hui
where was the evidence of a 12-9 in that post?
I would say that it was more like a 12-7 than a 12-9. I did see the train involved as it left 74th St. No evidence of a 12-9.
Da Hui
People won't take the train regularly unless they know that they won't be stranded by having the last train of the night leave to early, BUT:
On any given night, very few people are actually on that late train.
It's a great example of why you can't simply look at ridership by indivdual run in order to determining service levels.
CG
On any given night, very few people are actually on that late train.
It's a great example of why you can't simply look at ridership by indivdual run in order to determining service levels.
Quite true, in some cases (I've been on trains before where there were three passengers, a guard and a driver by the time it arrived at its terminus). In others, I've known the last train of the night to be particularly busy (in the UK, the last Birmingham to Leicester is usually pretty packed), cases in which you could probably argue for later trains.
Charles, I do not think you are correct. To prevent the "being stranded" phenomenon, you need a bus, not a full trainload. California has got this right. They run their capitol corridor service only during the day, but the thruway bus runs until midnight to take everyone home. And if you miss that, there's still the long distance Greyhounds that will drop you off locally.
AEM7
Now that you guys have mentioned it, there were a few examples of operations similar to this in the NY metro area -- I don't know if they still exist:
There is a shuttle bus service over one of the Hudson River bridges that connects a park and ride lot with the MNRR station in Peekskill (I think). If you arrived back in Peekskill after the last bus, your Monthly ticket would get you a taxi ride over the bridge.
Also, the first train each morning from Bay Head to Long Branch was actually a van for many years.
CG
That's typical East Coast prejudice. One time, I rode Greyhound from Denver to San Francisco after having missed the 8am Amtrak departure. Not only was the bus faster (beat the train by 5 hours, even though it departed 6 hours after the train, and I was able to shoot pictures of the train I missed), it was also almost as comfortable to sleep in*, and was clean**. It also ran 4 times daily instead of once daily.
* The fact that there were only 8 people aboard the bus after Rawlins, WY helped.
** The bus was washed down at every crew change point along the route (Denver; Salt Lake City; Reno), resulting in passengers having to de-board and re-board (but the luggage remained on board). The bus after cleaning smelled nice, and the floor was actually mopped dry, and the exterior was also washed. I was frankly stunned by how clean this Greyhound was.
While I'm not suggesting that Greyhound could pull this off on the East Coast where admittedly the bus clientle can be somewhat different, I am saying that bus service could work for low density times-of-day if train-type attitudes were applied to the equipment and the staff.
The Denver Greyhound schedule has since been cut, I think, to three times daily, but the bus is still apparently as clean as it was when I rode it, according to a Greyhound regular in that area.
AEM7
All in all, I think that Greyhound is better than Amtrak...but that's only b/c Greyhound uses highways that have more than one lane and aren't blocked by a freight railroad that gives less than a damn.
--Mark
Special menu in the cafe car, I bet: clam chowder, lobster bisque, ...
AEM7
Is that some sort of a bug that infests certain winter coats, or maybe some bed comforters?
hehehehehe..... : )
The title is 5:27 a.m. Pennsauken. The First Train.
Fourth paragraph: "You see," said Bob Vogel, a Railway Historical Society friend of Mr. Kozempel's on the first run. "This is the way to attract riders. You have a friendly driver like that. You have a good, clean, quiet train. All they have to do is promote it right."
Now that I've had a cup of coffee, I see that it's the sixth paragraph.
Just curious about it.
Chaohwa
I was asleep when I wrote that.
thanks!
North side of the bridge for sure, also maybe the A out to the Rockaways since it's such a clear day. AirTrain would be interesting if you don't mind paying the extra cost, and you also might like to try the R143's on the L.
Try the W - it may be only a local running between Astoria and Whitehall St but they are using R40 cars so you can cover the railfan window from one end of the line to the other.
Otherwise just get on a train and ride - switch to a different line at the next transfer point.
I just set up a new album loaded with shots taken from the '80s. NOT one of these pictures were taken by me personally, but they come from a collection of slides that I have purchased over the last 20 years from different venues such as the ERA, MESTA, Hoboken Festivals, and different train shows.
Here are a couple of samples:
Chris R27-R30, this picture is especially for you. LOL.
You can get to the rest of the pictures here:
1980's Graffiti and Pre GOH Era
Enjoy the pictures and please let me know what you think
I forgot things had decayed so much back then.
Talk about the "bad old days".
I have to go through my photos and see if I have some more. These two were the only ones I had scanned in my laptop...Oh and how about this one. The "fat" redbirds:
(Again, excuse the quality, as I took them with a piece of crap 110 camera when I was a teenager)
As far as that last shot, this proves to everyone of the "Redbirds" on the "C". Love the shot.
See the rest of my photos here.
BTW, I have a great "before & after" view for your Yankee Stadium Shot:
A Before from my collection:
An After from your collection:
Now we need a current shot with that angle for someone to add.
This brings bakc SO many memories! The M never ran to 36th St, Brooklyn, but when the switch was first made in the mid 80's to the West End, the R27-30's and the R40's, the R40M's, and the R42's didn't have "9th Avenue" on it's rollsigns, so they used 36th Street. I even rode on R32's and R38's on the M in the mid 80', but that may have been when they still went to Brighton:
Yes, the M did terminate at 36th St. often, whenever a GO caused the N to run on the West End, or if the West end express track at 9th Ave was needed, which was very often. In the summer of 1987 and 1988 a weird GO had the J running from Crescent Street to 36th Street (The M was a shuttle to Myrtle, the J was replaced by the Q49 east of Crescent). Back then the M was an express, so the M (or J when the GO was in effect) pulled into the southbound express track, then immediatley reversed, switching north of 36th to the Manhattan-bound express. These moves were made quickly so as to not block B service, so no fumigation took place and those who weren't alert often found themselves headed back to Pacific Street.
I have never seen a pic of the R40M/R42's just prior to GOH, so this particular pic brought back a flood of memories. I can date it from spring 1987 to summer 1988:
If I can find the picture, I will post it.
However, if you don't see anything about the graffiti-cleaned blue door R40 slants, then I am right. But the TA did paint the a/c R40s with grey doors inside and out. I know this personally because I used to ride them.
The front roll signs that are set on each of the cars are said to have a very clever, cryptic and subliminal message that was to be sent to Gunn himself. The message was, "A to Z, you're number 1!"
-William A. Padron
["Mott Av.-Far Rockaway"]
The worst interior images almost give me nausea and diarrhea. They look like the work of Red Grooms, "in hell", or like the intestines of some huge, extinct animal : dark, diseased, and shitty.
A few suggestions :
You might arrange your images in chronological order, so viewers can see the beginning, "progress", nadir, way out of, and end, of the graffiti problem.
Nadir (low point) : Do you have any interior images of cars with "masterpieces" painted on the outside, making the car windows opaque, so that one cannot see through them to the station signs on the platform ?
Do you have a collection of images of current "scratchiti" to include in your album ?
Do you have any photos of current graffiti inside subway tunnels, like the 14th Street Canarsie Line between, I think, the Graham Avenue and Grand Street stations in Brooklyn ?
Thanks again, and keep up the good work !
D.
I used to buy lots of slides from Eric, especially any R-10 stuff which I would literally clean out from him at any price. However, he has been awhile since I had last spoken to Eric in years, although I did spot him about two weeks ago on an uptown IRT #4 train of R-142A's reading a copy of the Financial Times newspaper.
Such great examples of his work in photographing the R-10's can be seen in images 2374 [car #2974], 2375 [car #2977], 2534 [car #3280] and 2552 [car #3302]. Note that image 2552 was credited as from the Joe Testagroe collection, but I have the original slide by Eric himself that was made extra and available (including me).
-William A. Padron
["Fulton-Lefferts Blvd."]
-William A. Padron
["Mott Av.-Far Rockaway"]
On year later, the final assignment as issued on October 14, 1988 while for rush hour "C" line service also, there were 54 graffitied R-10's still on NYC Transit property, with 23 of them in active use and the remaining 31 to be used as spares. For the green R-10's, it still remained at 110 units intact at the time.
As a memory, on a Friday afternoon rush hour during the closure of the Williamsburgh Bridge in 1988 (due to its structual weakness at the time), I remember riding an "A" line put-in of an eight-car graffitied R-10 consist that operated as far as Euclid Avenue, with #3267 as the lead south motor car and #3068 as the north motor car. After the last stop at Euclid Avenue, the train was taken out of service.
-William A. Padron
["Fulton-Euclid Av."]
The R30s did not arrive on the "C" until Fall of 1988. I remember this because people at the ERA was talking about how Pitkin had all of these red R30s sitting up in Pitkin and not using in regular service. Before then, it was R27s.
I remember riding an "A" line put-in of an eight-car graffitied R-10 consist that operated as far as Euclid Avenue,
I remember that because I was on it, boy talking about a blast back from the past. I was mad as hell when they took it out of service at Euclid.
-William A. Padron
["Fulton-Lefferts Blvd."]
The red R30s that I am speaking of was the UNREBUILT units (8412-8569). Those came on the scene sometime in late 1988, and boy did they look sharp. That was the 2nd best thing the "C" ever operated, the 1st going to the rebuilt R30/R30As IMHO.
As for the REBUILT units, the "C" did not start operating them until early 1989 and they were only the R30s (8250-8349-or what ever the last car of the R30 series). These are what replaced the R27s.
The R30As (8350-8411) didn't arrive on the "C" until December 1990. These are what replaced the UNREBUILT red R30s.
Yes, the red unbuilt R-30's did look very ultra modern in that paint scheme, and so did the 24 R-27's that given the same color set up in 1989. I remember seeing R-27 cars #8091 and #8126 look so youthful in that red scheme, even inside riding those numbered units.
Alas, after NYC Transit spent $105,000 on repainting those 24 selected R-27's in the red scheme, they were immediately pulled off the road and out of service. It was said that those particular units were simply unreliable, as told to me by a fellow E.R.A. colleague.
-William A. Padron
[(C) 8 Avenue/Fulton]
We'll never see another fleet like the Thundering Herd.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
If it isn't, then yeah, he sucks.
Phil Hom
On March 1, 1989, Al-Matin was staying at the apartment of his friend, Steven Zabel. That evening, Zabel's companion, Eddie Laureano, after using some heroin with Al-Matin, discussed stealing Zabel's television. When Al-Matin cautioned him, Laureano said that he would kill Zabel.
The following day, Al-Matin watched as Laureano slit Zabel's throat.
So Zabel was gay. BFD.
It would have been simple enough to just say "Yes, Steve Zabel passed away" without all the foofaraw...whether it is true or not.
Personally, I don't care what the circumstances were...Mr. Zabel was one of the better photographers of the New York subways of all time. he knew how to compose a shot, get the lighting right, etc. A lot better than some of the shit I see on many web sites nowadays, with only a very partial view of a subway car, abominably lousy lighting, etc.
Eric Oszustowicz
Glenn Smith
Roger Acara
Steve Zabel
Doug Grotjahn
William Mangahas
Thomas Price
Karl Stricker
And this was all so "normal" for so many years. Unbelievable to see it.
--Mark
Thanks a million for those!
I can't get enough!
Also, the sorry pics are VERY indicative of out of control crime.
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
Thanks....
When the R62s first went into service, they were the first graffiti-free cars in the system. Until then graffiti-free was unheard of. In fact, the graffiti situation was so bad that, we didn't believe that the R62s would last a day without graffiti, let alone all of the time they have so far.
Also, through the years from the early 70's to late 90's, some cars had been painted red. Is there a specific reason why the MTA went with the color red? It seems most of the cars were painted red after the gray w/ blue stripe scheme.
Thanks...
Absolutely NOT! Remember what I said, the R62s were the FIRST graffiti-free cars in 1983-in other words, the graffiti-free era was just beginning. I would say that the TA didn't really get a strong hold on graffiti until 1987 and even then there was more work to be done.
Did the cars that had graffiti simply not get any worse until the GOH got underway?
It depends on the car. For example, some cars were just repainted and kept free of graffiti a couple of years before overhaul. Those cars were: R32s, R33MLs R40 slants (a/c units only), R40Ms, R42s, and R44s & R46s (these two were just cleaned up-never painted except for beltline).
Others went from graffiti straight to overhaul. For example: R10s (only 110) R26s, R28s, R29, R30s (8250-8350), R30As (8350-8411), R33WFs, R36MLs, R36WFs R38s, R40s (non-a/c).
And others were just painted and kept free of graffiti, then scrapped. Those were R27s (only about 20-then scrapped in a matter of weeks), R30s (8412-8569) and a handful of R17s as well as about 1 or 2 R22s.
Great photos, especially the interior shots. Orange doors, man I forgot about those!
Dave
R33WFs/36WFs didn't get this treatment as well as R32s, R38s thru R42s-thank God.
When first entered into the Grafitti Free program, these were the colors (I'm a bit rusty, this was from daily riding, but I may be wrong on one or two hear or there, it's been a while and is totally from memory)
Marcy: pink/lavender
Hewes: Orange
Lorimer: Forest Green
Flushing: pink/purple
Myrtle: dark blue
Kosciuszko: cherry red
Halsey: Orange
Gates: Cherry Red
Chauncey: Blue
Eastern Parkway: Forest Green
Alabama to Crescent were all grey, IIRC
Cypress Hills: Forest Green
Elderts Lane: green (a bit lighter than forest green)
Forest Parkway: Cherry Red
Woodhaven Blvd: blue
104th: green
111th: Forest Green
121st: Cherry Red (I think)
Central: Forest Green
Knickerbocker: light blue
Wyckoff: pink/lavender
Seneca: gray then blue
Forest: Cherry Red then blue
Fresh Pond: beige then blue
Yes.
Elderts Lane: green (a bit lighter than forest green)
No, light blue.
Forest Parkway: Cherry Red
1989-1999. 1987-89, all stations from Forest Parkway west were painted light blue, Cypress Hills and Elderts Lane remained unpainted (kept their 1970's grafitti-on-navy-blue scheme) until 1989.
Woodhaven Blvd: blue
Correct.
104th: green
111th: Forest Green
121st: Cherry Red (I think)
All blue until the 1990's.
It takes some effort to realize now that those graffiti-covered cars were the "norm" for years. I would forget how oppressive it was until I took a trip outside of NYC by car or commuter RR, and felt the heaviness lift.
That being said, I also find a lot of comfort in those photos. Strange. They instantly bring me back to a very happy time in my life, my pre-high school, high school, and college years. When I see the interior of let's say the below train, I remember all the good times I had in those trains when I was in high school, going to college, and even trips as a child with my parents.
....sniff.....sniff......it's sick, but that really feels like "home" when I see that. It's amazing how something so disgusting can actually make me feel good. That look brings me instantly back to the time when I first started riding the subway by myself in high school. By the end of college, the GOHed R42's and all the others were back, but they still look like that now, so I don't have the same affection towards them now because I am used to the "GOHed" trains as you can still ride them today (although they were like new when I was in college).
And the photo above looks just like the R32-38's looked like inside when they ran on the M in the mid 80's. The R42's looked like that too, as well as the R40's. The R27-30's looked much worse inside (sort of like the IRT photos in his link), and the R16s were even worse than the R27-30's!
I hated them at the time, but I would do anything to ride one the filthy decrepid R16's again, the one in the museum "just doesn't look like I remember them."
A close corollary of this is that one often finds and makes one's closest friends in shared oppressive and even traumatic situations and life stages : high school, armed forces, college fraternity hazings. It doesn't matter if you and your buddies ate shit, what counts is that you ate shit TOGETHER, you have that in common, and that's what bonded you, and made you friends.
For me, graffiti got underway in 1970 when I was a freshman in high school, so it was part of stepping out into a bigger, riskier world.
There was also humor, like what I saw written on a blank billboard on the Graham Avenue or Grand Street station of the 14th Street Canarsie Line :
IF YOU CAN PISS ABOVE THIS LINE THE NYC FIRE DEPT. NEEDS YOU !
____________________________________________________________________
Graffiti seemed at its worst in 1979 and 1980, when I contemplated taking buses, and occasionally walked over the Brooklyn and Williamsburg Bridges, to avoid it : also because of the March-April 1980 transit strike. In 1984, I started going home to Ridgewood from Manhattan the long way, via the Queens Blvd. and 7 lines, and long walks, to avoid the L and M lines, unwind, and get some exercise.
I associate the decline of graffiti from 1984 to 1989 with the improvement of my social life.
IF WHITE IS BEAUTIFUL, HOW COME THEY ALL WANT A TAN ?
To the list of traumatic and oppressive situations people may have in common, of course include the graffitied NYC subway system, 1970-1989, and, of course, 9/11/01, and, sadly and most recently, 3/11/04.
I remember in 7th grade in the early 80's, we had a class trip to the Natural History Museum. We took the subway, the L to 8th Ave to the C/E. On the way home, we were waiting at the 81st St Station for what seemed to be an eternity (some things never change), and I remember a bunch of us had gathered around one of the billboards that had obsene graffiti on it. It said something to the effect of,
"I s**ked a.........last night..." It then went on to describe the rest of the experince and description of the human anatomy. We were all laughing and trying to read it, and all of a sudden the horrified teacher came running to pull us away from the billboard - never did finish reading what else it said....
I remember sometime around 1981 or 1982 riding on the L with my father between Bedford Ave and Myrtle and being amazed that the tiles were clean, and the columns had just been painted in very bright colors. In the 80's they picked very bizarre colors. The Myrtle Ave station was a light pastel blue (columns) in it's first graffiti free color, and then it became pink at some point when the whole Myrtle-Wyckoff complex was painted a pink color! I guess they picked bright colors to try to brighten the subway system up at that point. I kind of liked it, now everything seems to be forest green on the elevateds, it's attractive, but every station looks the same.
That was supposed to say, "Yeah, I think graffiti....", I don't know how that turned to "You".
Except I don't think that was obvious at the time. You know, the whole hindsight thing.
Other factors made it more fun. Car assignments were far more randomized than today. 3 or 4 different types on one line was not unusual. There was also more variety during the rush hours. That's when the diamonds came out to play.
"A" - R27s, R38s, R44s
"B-Bway" - R16s, R27/30s, R32s, R40Ss, R42s, R68s
"D-Bway & Q" - R27/30s, R32s, R40Ss, R42s R68s
"B-CPW" - R42s
"D-Conc" - R40Ms, R42s
"J", "L", "M" - R16s, R27/30s, R42s
"R" - R16s, R27/30s, R32s, R40Ss, R42s (this was before 5/87 while still going to Astoria)
The IRT in 1983 (pre-R62/R62As):
"1" - R14s, R15s, R21s, R22s, R29s, R36WF
"2" - R22s, R26s, R28s, R29s, R33s
"3" - R14s, R22s, R33s, R36WFs, R36MLs
"4" - R17s, R21s, R33s (only 10 cars)
"5" - The same as the "2", plus R21s
"6" - R17s, R22s, R26s, R28s, R33s
"7" - R17s, R33Ss, R36WFs, R36MLs
Furthermore, with the IRT, you can find all of these consists mixed up in the same train. For example, with the "3", it was common to find all five classes of cars that I just mentioned in one train.
It was a colorful time in history. So although the system was trashed, we did get to ride all the old and watch it all become new. Not to mention all the little things like original signs everywhere, original lamp posts, original railings, wooden platforms here and there, light bulbs instead of tubes, etc , etc. It was a very colorful system; we got our desire, the system is a class A system now, but a lot of it's "color" is gone - it has become more uniform (not that there's anything wrong with that).
I also remember that the TA painted at least two of the R32s' interior back to the original two tone aqua blue. Boy was that a treat.
I also seem to remember some wierd train like that around 1983 or so on the 42nd Street Shuttle. It was the first graffiti free train I ever remember seeing. It was VERY strange, like a dark aqua colored doors, with a slightly lighter walls. I don't remember what the exterior looked like. Anyone else remember this? I only saw it on the shuttle.
Speaking of which, what became of Mark S. Feinman's article on the 'State of the System' during the 80's?
--Mark
--Mark
Uh, not to ask anything silly, but who is Bernie Goetz and what was he famous (or infamous perhaps?) for in the System's history in the 80's?
After work all day
I ride the "A"
Four thugs with screwdrivers come my way
And so I say
Go for it, suckers, and make my day !
- Bernhard Goetz
I'll let other SubTalkers fill in the rest.
On December 22, 1984 at 1pm in the afternoon Bernhard Goetz entered a downtown IRT train at the 14th Street station in Manhattan. There were some twenty to twenty-five people in the car, including a group of four young black men: Troy Canty, Barry Allen, James Ramseur, and Darrell Cabey. Goetz sat down across from the youths. Moments later Canty and Allen, followed by Ramseur and Cabey rose and surrounded Goetz. Canty then demanded five dollars. Goetz, feigning a lack of understanding asked Canty to repeat his request. Canty responded, "Give me your money." Goetz stood up, reached inside his jacket, drew his revolver, and fired in rapid succession at Canty, Allen, Ramseur, and twice at Cabey. The first shot missed Cabey, after which Goetz said something like "you don't look so bad, here's another" and shot Cabey again. As Cabey lay bleeding, Goetz said "You don't look too bad, here's another," and fired at Cabey. The last shot left Cabey paralyzed. Goetz left the subway, rented a car, and drove to Vermont. He turned himself in to New York City police nine days later.
The "subway vigilante," as Goetz was labeled by New York tabloids, became front page news and stayed there for weeks, partly due to the passions it unleashed in New York and other urban populations. Some viewed Goetz as a hero for standing up to his attackers and defending himself in an environment where the police were increasingly viewed as unable to effectively combat crime. Others viewed Goetz's action as a violent and criminal over-reaction to the events. Since Goetz was white and the four youths were black, others focused on the racial aspects of the incident and the public reaction that followed.
The Goetz trial was a significant news event, not unlike the OJ Simpson trial of the 1990s. Goetz confessed to the shooting. Although the law stated that vigilantism was not a valid defense, the jury acquitted Goetz of the shooting but found him guilty of illegal weapons possession. He was sentenced to eight months in jail.
Darrell Cabey filed a civil suit against Goetz in 1985. In 1996, a jury found that Goetz had acted recklessly and deliberately inflicted emotional distress on Cabey. The jury awarded Cabey $43 million. Goetz subsequently filed bankruptcy.
In the civil trial, newspaper columnist Jimmy Breslin testified that Cabey had told him about a year after the shooting that he and the other three young men on the train intended to rob Goetz because "he looked like easy bait."
All of the youths have committed serious crimes since the original incident, except for Cabey, who remains paralyzed in a wheelchair.
Goetz actually ran for mayor in the last mayoral election.
(The quiz on this topic is next Tuesday :)
--Mark
As much as many want it to be, the race of these four miscreants is irrelevant to this story.
(As much as many want it to be, the race of these four miscreants is irrelevant to this story.)
Hardly. New York race relations may not be a walk in the park today, but they are a picnic compared with the 1980s. Remember "Central Park," "Howard Beach," etc. Whites felt victimized by black criminals. Blacks thought whites, and the police, would just as soon see them exterminated, criminal or not. And this whole incident brought it to the surface.
Goetz was a young, slightly built engineer from Poughkeepsie. He had been robbed before, and injured in the robbery -- that's why he got the gun. He had been asked for money. The teens were carrying screwdrivers, but not weapons. He said, "I've got five dollars for each of you," pulled out the gun and started shooting. Could he have said "buzz off" and been left alone? Did he assume he was going to be assaulted because they were black? Was that a fair assumption? Etc. Etc. Etc. And of course the subways were much worse, and seemed menacing too.
I'm not sure that those coming of age or arriving in the city in the past ten years can relate to all this.
I never said it wasn't an issue, it's just not applicable to the specifics of the Goetz case, unless you want to highlight why these 4 punks picked Goetz out as a victim to begin with.
It's not so much that they picked Goetz because he was white, but rather that Goetz feared them because they were black. Most robberies and other violent crimes involve criminals and victims of the same race.
Hogwash. I doubt these 4 idiots were the only 4 black people in that subway car. Goetz didn't shoot any of them.
Of course he didn't shoot anyone else in the car. No one but those four were threatening him.
It would be interesting to compare subway crime statistics at the time of the Goetz incident with today's. I would not be suprised if violent crime rates were 2X what they are now, and of course the perception was very bad too.
--Mark
I feel the same way because of 1. The High speeds, 2. The variety, and 3. Just to appreciate what us younger railfans have taken for granted.
But then theres the crime problem, and the deffered maintenance.
I never felt that there was any greater danger from crime then than I do now. Perhaps I was ignorant, lucky, or accustomed to the threat.
And the best thing about nostalgia is, you can take the fruits of the past, and throw away the rest.
Great shots. Brought back a LOT of memories, especially that R32 R train interior!
Koi
You see, the R46s were a better performing car than the R44s, but their trucks sucked. Since the R46s were better than the R44s, the TA decided to totally mothball the R44s, take their trucks and put them on the R46s until new trucks for the R46s come in. Once the R46s receive their new trucks, the R44s got back their trucks and were placed back into service.
Regards,
Jimmy
I remember the pink!
They were however dark grayed a year or two before 1987. It may have even been around fall of 1985. It was definitely by 1986. I remember by what year of high school I was in. That's how I remember when the R16's left, the Red R30's came, or by my senior year when the GOH R42's started coming back.
It is an important part of history that should not be forgotten-every aspect of it-how it started, the duration period, and the ending.
TA management seems to be, in my opinion doing just that. In the 70s, after awhile, the TA just stopped cleaning and washing the cars altogether. We all know the rest. Well, in the last couple of months, I have noticed some very nasty trains on the "A" and it is not just the floors. The windows are a horror. First you had the scratchitti. Now you have this white milky substance ON TOP OF the scratchitti and it is all over every inch of glass on those trains. The R44s are even worse because it is not just on the windows, it is all over the glass partitions throughout the cars-as far as I am concerned, its graffiti all over again. The TA does not clean these cars as all and it is just foul. The cars that come out of Coney Island (especially the R68As) are a mess as well. Those trains are so filthy, they are black.
Evidently the TA management forgot that part of history and if not careful, history can have a way of repeating itself all over again.
Hey now, 3 out of 4 americans do this right? If it's that popular it can't be all that bad!!!
Looks like an R-38 to me.
And this is the R32s:
Did you guys notice something with these cars. Those circular things in the ceilings are NOT air-conditioners.
Yeah. Hot time, livin' in the city.
Did the doors make that little creaking noise before closing pre-GOH, or was that added as a result of the GOH?
The R36s look like this just after GOH, but before the red interior doors.
But with orange end doors and without floor-to-ceiling water.
That red on the end storm doors obviously isn't Redbird (deep) red. It's more of a lighter tone. The interior color is the rebuilt beige. I'm guessing this photo was taken c. 1985-88, just after GOH. What color were the R36's just before their current Redbird scheme and after GOH?
No, in fact they never saw regular service on any of the West Side lines AFTER GOH, with the exception of one set of R36MLs that operated on the "1" very briefly during either 1987, '88 or '89. Can't remember the exact year, but it was extremely brief.
They operated mostly on the "5" and "6" trains. Looks like I do remember them on the "4" briefly as well, but I'm not sure. Maybe someone could shed some light on whether or not they were on the "4".
As far as the "5", no I don't mean the R33ML, I mean the R36ML. As a matter of fact, the "5" and "6" operated BOTH R36ML and R36WF (namely 9400s and 9500s only) after GOH.
Thanks for posting the photos.
I don't know which looked worse, the R16's or the R10's (before getting the green). I remember riding out to Rockaway on an R10 that was just horrendous around 1985. The R16's were SO bad too, bot inside and out. Some of Keith's photos, as bad as they are, are very tame. Many times the condition was way worse if you can believe it. SOmetimes R16's and R27-30's were even missing windows in the doors! I remember seeing the windows on the roofs of buildings along the els too. I guess kids just kicked them out.
See, the word "American" and the graffito "Purple Haze" give away the secret.
However, I still feel pity for these cars that are currently rusting away, still covered in graffiti in the deep blue sea. :(
Excellent photos (whoever took 'em)!
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
What I have noticed is that everybody is talking about how filthy the cars were. Nobody is talking about how hot the cars were where as most of them were not manufactured with air conditioning. The R10 thru R32s, all but the last 10 R38s and the first 200 R40s did not come with a/c. They came with fans.
On the B-Division, the first car purchased with a/c was the R62s in 1983. The R12s thru R36s were not manufactured with a/c. The R26s thru R36s had a/c built in at Coney Island starting in 1979.
So to sum it up, not only were the trains filthy, they were hot as hell.
Very true, and the whole system had a different "flavor" back then. The sounds and smells were different because all the windows and doors were open when it was warm. It was much louder, especially on the underground lines, and you smelled the break dust. Anyone that was ever on a summer MOD trip knows what I am talking about, if they weren't old enough to live it. Even going over the bridges like the Williamsburg and the Manhattan Bridges was a totally different experience with all the windows and doors open.
With doors and windows latched open during the summer, a nice breeze prevented the interiors from being too intolerable. AC was still a luxury when I began riding the rails, and you could tell the importance of a line by the amount of AC'ed cars assigned to it.
#3 West End Jeff
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/local/story/176295p-153468c.htmlGirl's afire
in subway
A 13-year-old girl's pants ignited on a Queens subway yesterday when her leg brushed against a busted heater below her seat, authorities said.
The girl was riding an eastbound E train with her aunt around 12:40 p.m. when her right leg touched a "glowing hot" metal object sticking out of the heater, a Transit Authority spokesman said.
The unidentified girl's pants caught fire as the train neared the Roosevelt Ave. station, briefly panicking her aunt and other riders.
The girl suffered minor burns on her leg and was treated at Elmhurst Hospital Center and released.
TA spokesman Charles Seaton said the subway heater would be examined to determine why it malfunctioned. But he said it appeared that a hair clip or similar object had been jammed into the heater's grate.
"It was glowing hot," he said. "It was sticking out of the unit, far enough to come in contact with her clothing."
Pete Donohue and Greg Gittrich
====================================================================
Now for the jokes (in extremely poor taste but inevitable):
She was in the hot seat.
I have heard of hot pants but that is ridiculous.
Yes Officer, I will move along now.
Now for the lawsuit.
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
Didn't she also violate the city indoor no smoking law???
But they are very stupid in other respects, like walking down a railroad track, and all the horn blowing in the world doesn't make them jump an inch.
People Eating Tasty Animals!!!!
If 32 bears have been killed since 1980, that's slightly over one per year. Can't we just chalk this up to Darwin and get back to work? If the same number of bears were killed by cars, would GM be required to install "bear-catchers" on the front of all its vehicles?
Must be the animal rights wackos at work trying to make a mountain out of a molehill. Hell, I've run over more squirrels with the transit bus I drvie for a living in the last year than BNSF Railway has nailed bears since 1980!!
Bill "Newkirk"
This would cast doubt on whether a section of the route, linking Clapham Junction to the Tube network, could ever be built."
Thameslink 2000 is the more important project, as it would pass through the very middle of London from St. Pancras to London Bridge, and it would include a solution to the problem of the London Bridge (high level) station bottleneck. The project was sent back to the drawing board last year after being disapproved for architectural and enviromental reasons.
But the cash he's allowed to raise is only 40% of the naff ELL job. Ergo nothing will happen.
That's entirely possible. Thameslink 2000 was supposed to cost £800 million, but the new London Bridge station masterplan would bump up the cost. I think the ELL extension should cost less than £1 billion, and less than Thameslink 2000.
Both the East London line extension and Thameslink 2000 are planned to make use of existing lines wherever possible.
I understand that both projects are to be built in stages, and in both cases the north stage is to be built first.
A Thameslink station beneath St. Pancras will be built before the Channel Tunnel Rail Link reaches St. Pancras in 2007.
Then the Thameslink tunnel upgrading, and minor improvements to London Bridge station, would form stage one. Stage two would involve a thorough upgrade of London Bridge station. The original project was disapproved on environmental and architectural heritage grounds, and must be resubmitted, based on the "London Bridge Station Masterplan". If approved, stage one is due for completion in 2008 and stage two in 2012.
The ELL extension falls naturally into two parts, extensions of the existing ELL to the north and to the south. They already have permission to demolish Bishopsgate Goods station to make way for a new section of line leading to the northern extension, which runs along a disused elevated ROW. The southern extension, which also has a short section of new line, would be built later.
The station shell ("box" in UK English) at St Pancras Thameslink is to be built between September this year and Spring 2005. This will entail the dreaded "blockade", with the Thameslink line split in two for 6-8 months. Trains from the south will terminate at Kings Cross Thameslink (6 tph, its maximum capacity as a terminus) or Blackfriars. Trains from the north will terminate in "St Pancras Interim Station" - actually the new part of St Pancras main line station which will eventually be used for the Channel Tunnel trains from 2007. Access from the interim station to the old Kings Cross Thameslink, or to the Kings Cross St Pancras underground station, is not brilliant (about a 15-minute walk on the surface), so the prospect is quite unattractive to Bedford line commuters.
However, I learned last night (from the Managing Director of Thameslink, no less, addressing a meeting of the aforesaid Bedford commuters) that the actual St Pancras Thameslink station may not be completed before the Channel Tunnel line opens to St Pancras in 2007. They may have to go on using the inadequate Kings Cross Thameslink station (nee Kings Cross Metropolitan Widened Lines station) a while after that.
The other station rebuildings entailed in the northern part of the Thameslink 2000 scheme are Farringdon and Blackfriars, to extend both to 12-car length. Blackfriars' platforms will be extended south across the river bridge, with a new second entrance south of the Thames close to the Tate Modern art gallery. Farringdon's will also be extended southwards, blocking off the present junction which allows Thameslink (north) trains to terminate at Moorgate. Thameslink's management is unenthusiatic about doing that before the full Thameslink 2000 is built because they need Moorgate as a terminus, in order to provide an adequate peak hour frequency (more than 8 tph) to the northern end of their line.
There would be no point in opening up the connection from the Great Northern route into the Thameslink tunnel before the London Bridge area work is done. While the route's capacity is only 8 tph, it can't take any more trains than the ones off the Midland line that it takes now.
Isn't this connection part and parcel of the larger works at St. Pancras? Even though it can't immediately be used, I would think all the necessary work should be done now while the complex is being torn up, to avoid later disruptions.
"Access from the interim station to the old Kings Cross Thameslink, or to the Kings Cross St Pancras underground station, is not brilliant (about a 15-minute walk on the surface)."
Definitely true. KX Underground is supposed to get a new fare control adjacent to the new platforms at St. Pancras, though--any idea what the time frame for that is?
I assume it will be built as part of the general works going on now. I just meant that they won't be able to start using the connection in revenue service until the capacity of the Thameslink route further south has been increased.
Me: "Access from the interim station to the old Kings Cross Thameslink, or to the Kings Cross St Pancras underground station, is not brilliant (about a 15-minute walk on the surface)."
Dave: "Definitely true. KX Underground is supposed to get a new fare control adjacent to the new platforms at St. Pancras, though--any idea what the time frame for that is?"
Yes indeed. But.... another piece of information from the Thameslink boss last night was that work on building the new northern booking hall for Kings Cross underground station has halted because it is running massively over budget.
Why does it take so long to get from the interim St. Pancras station to the underground? Isn't the interim station part of the original Victorian train shed? There used to be a stairway from there leading directly to the underground ticket hall.
It doesn't. For the Underground, you use the side exit to the station, cross Pancras Rd and then enter the Underground in front of King's X station. Thameslink, however, is a pain. It's on the corner of the Pentonville and King's X Rds. Consequently, as well as being a hike, it's across several busy roads. This is one of the reasons why the new station is needed. Up until this point, I've preferred, rather than riding a fast train from Leicester to London and walk to the Thameslink station, instead to ride the slow train and change at Luton or Luton Airport onto a Thameslink. I think that demonstrates that it's an utter pain.
Isn't the interim station part of the original Victorian train shed?
It's actually just outside the trainshed in the North-West corner.
There used to be a stairway from there leading directly to the underground ticket hall.
Which has been removed (and boarded up inside the underground, although there are still signs pointing to the blocked off doorway!). The temporary entrance isn't all that bad, even if it's mildly irritating when it's raining.
Trains from the north will terminate in "St Pancras Interim Station" - actually the new part of St Pancras main line station which will eventually be used for the Channel Tunnel trains from 2007.
Isn't the interim station part of the original Victorian train shed?.
It's actually just outside the trainshed in the North-West corner.
If the interim station is north of the trainshed and to the west of the existing tracks, which is what I read the above as meaning, then I don't believe it is the part of St Pancras that will eventually be used by Channel Tunnel trains.
My understanding is that the part of the main line station that will eventually be used by Channel Tunnel trains is on the line of the current tracks and platforms and (at least for part of its length) inside the current trainshed.
The new platforms being built to the north of the train shed are for the Midland Main Line trains (to the west of the current tracks) and for the CTRL domestic services (to the east of the current tracks). Between these two new sets of platforms will be extensions of the platforms within the existing train shed for Channel Tunnel trains (which are significantly longer than the Midland or CTRL Domestic trains).
It's actually just outside the trainshed in the North-West corner."
Me: No, the St Pancras Interim Station (which is almost finished, and just as well, since it comes into use by Midland Mainline in two time) is in the northeast corner, and consists of the extensions of some of the existing platforms to accommodate, eventually, the very long Eurostar trains, plus some other platforms for the Kent commuter trains.
Poster: "If the interim station is north of the trainshed and to the west of the existing tracks, which is what I read the above as meaning, then I don't believe it is the part of St Pancras that will eventually be used by Channel Tunnel trains."
Me: No, that part isn't built yet. That northwestern part will be the eventual home of Midland Mainline.
Poster: "My understanding is that the part of the main line station that will eventually be used by Channel Tunnel trains is on the line of the current tracks and platforms and (at least for part of its length) inside the current trainshed."
Me: That's right.
Poster: "The new platforms being built to the north of the train shed are for the Midland Main Line trains (to the west of the current tracks) and for the CTRL domestic services (to the east of the current tracks). Between these two new sets of platforms will be extensions of the platforms within the existing train shed for Channel Tunnel trains (which are significantly longer than the Midland or CTRL Domestic trains)."
Me: That's right. It's the north and northeast extension that's anout to come into use as the Interim Station. Incidentally, MML is running a "heritage train" hauled by a class 45 loco on Thursday 8 April to commemorate the last week of Midland Mainline services out of the original Victorian St Pancras trainshed. MML will then move the the Interim Station at the northeast corner, until its final resting place at the northwest corner is ready. Thameslink will join MML in the Interim Station from 27 September 2004, and that is when things will get really difficult. MML and Thameslink will have only six platforms in which to terminate all of their services from the north, for a period of 25-35 weeks (estimates vary!). There will have to be cuts in peak-hour frequencies for that period and commuters' lives will get very unpleasant. After the through Thameslink route reopens, MML will have the Interim Station to themselves again.
It's because the Interim Station is at the northeastern corner (where the gasholders used to be) that they estimate a 15-minute walk to Kings Cross Thameslink station. A bit less to the Underground station, I guess, though I have no idea as yet where they will signpost the walking route. According to the Managaing Director of Thameslink, they have also arranged with London Buses to increase the frequency on route 63, which happens to terminate right outside the new Interim Station and runs to Farringdon and Blackfriars amongst other places, to 20 bph (every three minutes).
Thanks for that explanation, which eventually caused me to get out on the ground and see for myself. The interim station is due to open this weekend; here is a photograph of what it looked like a few days ago:
Click to enlarge
More pictures, including the old St Pancras we won't see again until 2007, are here.
- 2 bits of re-opening disused lines
- 3 reopened stations
- 1 totally new station
- various electrification issues.
Plus two new short connecting lines, one to the NLL viaduct and one to the SLL viaduct.
IINM, the SLL connector is just a re-instatement. I don't know what's there on the surface, but you can see the course quite clearly on a 1 : 25 000 OS Map:
Thanks for pointing that out, R. B. Well all I can say is that I hope they don't exceed the billion pound budget!
I wonder just how much of that billion goes on (1) the franchising process and (2) the PFI firm's profit.
"Dear Mr Fairthorne
Thanks for your email of 25th March 2004 regarding the proposed provision of infrastructure at London Bridge.
The TWA Order/Masterplan for Thameslink 2000 will provide the following (from north to south):
* three platforms for Cannon Street (1 up, 1 down, 1 reversible)
* two platforms for Thameslink services
* four platforms for Charing Cross
* six terminating platforms for South Central services
Immediately to the west of London Bridge two lines will serve Cannon Street, two lines Thameslink services, and two (increasing to four at Metropolitan Jct.) will serve Charing Cross. In short where now all Charing Cross and Thameslink services share use of two lines, in the proposal each will have two dedicated lines; this will be achieved by the construction a new viaduct across the Borough High Street/Borough Market area (not a double deck structure). The existing train shed at London Bridge (grade 2 listed) will be dismantled and stored pending proposals for relocation.
I hope the above helps. If I can assist further, please get in touch.
Regards
Peter Nelson "
I thanked him, saying I thought was the best that could be done given the constraints, and I hoped that it would be approved.
I propose that they ship the train shed to Lake Havasu City, Arizona, where it would be company for the old London Bridge.
These numbers are stupid, someone somewhere is planning to make a lot of money.
Just think how much road you could build for a billion.
In New York? Maybe a station stairway.
Perhaps the most expensive part is building the new connecting lines, one from Shoreditch to the old Broad Street viaduct, and one from Surrey Quays to Surrey Canal Road (a new station) to connect with the South London line.
However I am not at all keen on the ELL extension, and the expenditure is justifed by dubious "regeneration benefits".
Unofficial estimates are £1 billion for the ELL extension, £3 billion for Thameslink 2000, and £10 billion for Crossrail.
I agree with you, Max.
Besides being a useful link, Thameslink 2000 would address the urgent need to relieve the London Bridge station bottleneck.
Network Rail is said to be preparing a new plan to answer the "deficiencies" of the Railtrack proposal that was rejected for environmental reasons, mainly because of the incremental changes to London Bridge station. The new plan is based on a "London Bridge Station Masterplan", but I have not been able to find out anything factual about the Masterplan.
If the revised plan is approved, Thameslink 2000 could be up and running by 2012!
When I first heard about the Thameslink 2000 plan, I was surprised that London Bridge was a part of it, and even more surprised that 18 out of 24 tph would go via London Bridge. I had expected all trains to go via the Elephant & Castle.
Apparently that plan was considered but rejected. See Thameslink 2000 Inspector's Report, the case for the Strategic Rail Authority, sections 3.1.37 through 3.1.51, scenario 1. "All the alternatives examined were markedly inferior to Thameslink 2000, and should be rejected", said the SRA. They calculated that it had a benefit/cost ratio of 0.97 compared with 1.6 for Thameslink 2000 as applied for.
Expensive works would have been needed at Herne Hill, and there would not have been much relief to London Bridge.
I don't think they considered an interchange station at Union Street Southwark, but that would bump up the cost even more.
With 16 tph (peak) from Loughborough Junction to Streatham, you would need new grade-separated junctions at Herne Hill (to avoid conflicts with the Chatham line) and Streatham (to merge with the Victoria fast main line). To avoid conflicts at Tulse Hill you could have the London Bridge service continue via Crystal Palace, giving you exclusive use of the line from Tulse Hill to Streatham.
Your plan puts to good use the four-track approach to Blackfriars, and it provides a frequent service to Streatham.
Ideally places like Camberwell and Streatham should be served by extensions to the underground, but the most that can be hoped for is a possible extension of the Victoria line to Herne Hill in a loop terminal, as Brixton cannot turn enough trains.
The official Thameslink 2000 makes good use of the four-track London Bridge to Croydon line, which is straighter than the Herne Hill route, and has good connections at London Bridge.
On the whole I think your plan is feasible, but perhaps not quite so good as the official Thameslink 2000.
Indeed, but almost all of those connections can be made either at East Croydon or at Lewisham. Add a Southwark interchange then even Greenwich gets a connection.
And (2) making use of the straight, four-track Brighton main line from London Bridge to East Croydon rather than the slow, circuitous two-track route through Elephant & Castle, Tulse Hill and Crystal Palace to Norwood Junction
If only a junction at Penge was possible!
I'm not surprised, but I do think that with the political issues surrounding Borough Market and the escalating costs there is a distinct chance that only the Northern end of the project will get done.
I don't think they considered an interchange station at Union Street Southwark, but that would bump up the cost even more.
It's a real wishlist thing. It would achieve what sending Thameslink to London Bridge would achieve, without having to totally rebuild London Bridge station. It could also be done with minimal disruption to service as both lines are 4 track lines with the capacity of 2 track ones. The problem is that the line South of Loughborough Junction is so slow, so trains to Brighton would take longer. There may also be a problem that the gap to Waterloo East would be approximately just over a train length.
Expensive works would have been needed at Herne Hill, and there would not have been much relief to London Bridge.
Actually, I somewhat doubt they would be. If the timetable were written correctly, the 8tph out of Victoria via Herne Hill between 1700 and 1759 would slot into the gaps of the 16tph Thameslink.
Even if grade separation were to be required, it doesn't look like a huge project. The Up Chatham Main would serve platform 1, the Down Chaatham Main 2, Up Holborn 3, and Down Holborn 4. A crossover North of the station would allow Down Holborn trains to join the Down Chatham Main; likewise, South of the station, trains from the Up Chatham Main could join the Up Holborn. The viaduct South of the station already carries three tracks and looks like it could carry four. The Holborn tracks could then ramp up to the level of the Portsmouth lines and join them before they enter the Knight's Hill Tunnel. Tulse Hill station would then become a simple two track two platform effort and the Peabody Viaduct would become disused. This would be no more effort than the little curve they put in to get Eurostar off the Chatham Lines and into Waterloo.
Ideally places like Camberwell and Streatham should be served by extensions to the underground
Deep tubes in London are increasingly a problem even North of the River as the water table is rising. London Underground pumps some inordinate amount of water out of its tubes every day. South of the River it would be practically impossible. Realistically, capacity can only be added on the surface.
On the whole I think your plan is feasible, but perhaps not quite so good as the official Thameslink 2000.
It's not intended to be as good. I have no doubts in the superiority of a London Bridge alignment, solely in the political and financial situation ever making it feasible.
Doing something like that can bring benefits if it is cheap and taps hidden demand; a classic example being the original Thameslink development which reopened a disused cross-city tunnel.
But the ELL just seems too contrived (not to mention too expensive) to me. I don't see where sufficient extra peripheral traffic is going to come from to justify £1 billion.
It would have the benefits of removing much of the merging between fast and slow lines before London Bridge and help with the congestion in that station. Having said that, it still really needs to go somewhere near the centre of London. Here's another of my random ideas:
What does anyone think of that one?
Which particular problems were you thinking of?
If you can avoid flat junctions, two destinations are easy to serve as long as the traffic is balanced. If not, you will run into problems in any case even without conflicting movements. The Piccadilly Line is a case in point. Believe me, if they could ditch the Uxbridge branch, they would.
Its a bit unbalanced too. Three destinations in the west, seven in the east.
I think that the East London Line is destined never to fine a useful purpose in life. Problem is, it doesn't actually go anywhere that anyone would want to go to: no major shopping centres, places of work, or transport interchanges. For a proper Eastern orbital, try Orpington/Bromley OR Croydon to Catford, Lewisham, Greenwich, Stratford, Finsbury Park (Highbury & Islington is not good enough), West Hampstead. THAT would be a busy line.
You can't really do much about that in South London. If you look at my alignment, at least it goes to both the City and the West End and also eliminates the New Cross branch. Lots of lines have low ridership and lots of merges. It's best to solve the problems one by one, but I think that one will remain awkward.
Its a bit unbalanced too. Three destinations in the west, seven in the east.
I know what you mean. The three in the West are probably right. I've based the East on what services are already there. Some routes would work better given to Thameslink, but that's already proposed to have huge numbers of routes. My thoughts on frequencies of either end would be:
WEST END (total 18tph)
Sutton 6tph
Dorking 3tph
Epsom (short workings) 3tph
Chessington 6tph (could help to pay for this project by building on railway land South of Chessington South station)
EAST END (total 18tph)
Wimbledon 2tph
Epsom 4tph
Crystal Palace Loop (2x) 2tph
Epsom Downs 2tph
Sutton (short workings) 2tph
Tattenham Corner 2tph
Caterham 2tph
ALTERNATIVE EAST END FOR MERGE HATERS (total 18tph)
Wimbledon eliminated (useless line)
Epsom 6tph
Crystal Palace all service to Victoria
Epsom Downs 2tph
Sutton (short workings) 4tph
Tattenham Corner 3tph
Caterham 3tph
In general, but that doesn't hold once you get out to Epsom Downs, Tattenham Corner, or Caterham.
It would be nice to calculate ridership percentage for suburban stations: Take the population from, say, 1 mile round the station, or some other suitable catchment area, and the number of people who enter the station AM. The higher the percentage, the more popular the station and the more useful the service.
Well, all in all the 30km new section of the M1 opened in 1999 (the link to the A1) cost £218 million for three lanes each way, plus hard shoulders, junctions, etc. So allowing for a little inflation, we're talking somewhere over 100km (60 miles) of motorway, which would of course be at least triple the width of any railway.
Often, changing twice to make an orbital journey takes time and is hassle. The more trains you have to catch, the more likely something would go wrong.
My mother used to live in Dulwich and work in Blackheath. Did she travel from North Dulwich to Peckham Rye, chenge to get a Lewisham train, then change again? No, she went to London Bridge and came out again.
Now, the service from Peckham to Lewisham is not much good. Perhaps some ££££ could be spent improving it. On the other hand, the lines in and out of London Bridge are also on the slow side. Why not spend the ££££ improving these. Improving radial links will also improve orbital links and benefit everyone. Improving just the orbital links will benefit hardly anyone.
But they're cheap, whereas Fleet and Chelney would be expensive... and we all know who got elected 24 years ago.
On the other hand, the lines in and out of London Bridge are also on the slow side. Why not spend the ££££ improving these. Improving radial links will also improve orbital links and benefit everyone. Improving just the orbital links will benefit hardly anyone.
Too right. They're also in a stupid capacity constraining layout, which given how crowded the trains get, is unforgivable.
That's the thing I least like about the Tory Party. On a local level, they're damn good, but the Parliamentary Party's gone Thatcherite. It's as if there's a real Tory Party still, but the MP's haven't been told. Then again, I freely admit to being a wet.
The last plans I saw (on the Mayor's website, I think) included at least half the trains running through on the NLL to Highbury Corner. Still not the greatest, but at least chaanging for the Victoria there is handier than changing at Whitechapel for the H&C. Angel and Old St. do good business without a direct service to the West End, albeit with better connections; people do take what you give 'em and make the best of it at a certain point.
That said, why turn half of the trains at Canonbury, short of the Highbury transfer? Will ELL (would ELL...) have its own platforms at Canonbury, before the merge with the NLL? (If so, why not build them at Highbury instead?)
Last question: what are the locations proposed for the Hoxton and Haggerston stations on the viaduct? I've seen traces of a station at Old St.-- is that where the new Hoxton station would go? Seems a bit close to the Shoreditch High St. station.
The SRA website refers you to http://www.ellp.co.uk/, which doesn't answer your question. Transport for London (http://www.tfl.gov.uk/rail/initiatives/eastlondon_project.shtml) doesn't say either. But according to the borough of Hackney, new stations are to be at Hoxton (Cremer St, E2), Haggerston (Lee St, E8) and Dalston (Dalston Lane, E8). The Shoreditch High Street station would be on the south side of Bethnal Green Road. So no station at Old Street.
No one will get this, kudos to those who do.
Your pal,
Fred
...since this railroad doesn't necessarily have to be here in the US, my first guess is: (1) The Orient Express or (2) Canadian National RR. For good measure here's a couple of domestic ones: (3) Sante Fe; (4) Hudson & Manhattan RR aka Porth Authority Trans-Hudson RR (PATH)
If it ain't one of those, I'll eat my hat (I'll have to find one first ;-D
BTW I saw all this on the history channel last night.
Vince
That was something about how they tried to ferry locomotives across Lake Baikal!
Mark
Was the Trans-Siberian built with 5 foot rail gauge, as other Russian railways were built? This really caused problems for invading armies such as Germany in WW2, since they couldn't run 4'-8½" trains on the Russian tracks.
Your pal,
Fred
Yes.
This really caused problems for invading armies such as Germany in WW2, since they couldn't run 4'-8½" trains on the Russian tracks.
That was why they adopted such a dumb gauge.
What about Finland?
Arti
Mark
2. What are the "codes" for the types of MetroCards, as printed on MVM receipts (i.e. 024 = 7 day unlimited)?
Yes, it has.
At 9:30 AM, I was running a little late, but was lucky enough to catch a B Brighton Express train. Things went smoothly until we reached PP interlocking. Normally if the Q local had the line-up, we would be sitting inside the tunneled portion of Parkside Ave. This time we were at last signal before the Q crosses over to the shared express track (I am not proficient at Track numbers such as B2 or B4, so describing the location is the best ability for me.). At 9:32 we waited with my thoughts of a possible problem on the Q ahead at Prospect Park.
At 9:35 AM, the C/R announced that we "are being held for some unknown reason", which kept the T/O as well as C/R making the announcement, in the dark. But at 9:38, a Q train suddenly passes by us and it wasn't until 9:40 when Dekalb M/T allowed us to proceed. Matters worse, we went full stead ahead as if there was no problem up ahead that would slow train traffic down. (Not to mention that the B was still ahead of the Q at Newkirk, but the Q manages to pass us and go ahead as the first train entering Prospect Park.))
Some questions need to be addressed: If the B was way too far running hot in it's schedule, why were we waiting for 8 minutes? If early, then what reason did Brighton Beach give as giving the train an early "push". Was there a number of S/B B's waiting for lay-up or entering the pocket terminal at BB?
R40M B 4544 (at C/R position)
Yesterday I took the Q and it was held at Parkside, then at Dekalb, then at Myrtle to let an N in front. We lost 10-15 minutes on that trip. If the Q was that far ahead of the N, why wasn't it allowed to proceed? I know there is a schedule but why do the passengers have to pay the price for the screw ups. If they had just let the Q go the N would have been far behind.
Today, I just missed the B, then a crowded, hence late, Q came which I let go, then another Q and B came in together. I took the B, which had to wait at Parkside for the Q I let go. At 7th Ave, the platform was packed. Yet, I had seen 4 trains go through in a normal interval.
Once you are moving, the trains run fast. I save about 5 minutes over the fast times I had before the bridge opened fully. But I don't think they have the scheduling down. I thought the idea was that the Q and D meet at Gold st and the N and B do as well, all at the same interval/frequency so everything move through without delay.
-Chris
Sorry, I meant nycsubway.org.
-Chris
If you want to contribute them to the site, email them to me and I'll review them. Use the feedback link to get in touch.
Is this book available now, or coming soon?
--Mark
Da Hui
Your pal,
Fred
Da Hui
Da Hui
I neeeeed mooooore!!!!,
(4) WoodlawnBowlingGreen
http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4287359437
This is the first time I actually saw this thread. Great photos by the way, keep em coming.
I know that the City needed to make the IND as marketable as possible to draw off riders from the IRT, BMT and trolleys, but some of these mezzanines are ridiculous. The mezzanine at 75th Avenue is much bigger than it needed to be.
Anyone know?
There are a few reasons why the mezzanines are so big. One is that the city wanted to make the IND attractive, not the crowded mess that was the IRT. Secondly, a lot of those mezzanines would have become platforms for the Second System.
It would be cheaper to still to have high ceilings over the platforms past the mezzanine.
For example, take the renovations at Queens Plaza and Roosevelt Avenue. In favor of those 'employee quarters' where the men can get drunk, they take up about half the space.
That comment was completely uncalled for and an insult to all TA employees.
Peace,
ANDEE
So as for traffic, I don't think much of it had to be re-routed along the surface. That subway line helped spur the growth of many of those communities. Notice along Queens Blvd. and even into the area along Hillside, there are many more large apartment houses than there are in other parts of Queens.
It's too bad the Van Wyck Extension of this line never happened and the Hillside and Archer branches stopped at their current terminals. I would love to see Woodhaven Blvd. turned into an express station with a large "Super Express Bus" terminal feeding it with passengers from the LIE corridor in Eastern Queens and Western Nassau.
avid
However Bedford-Nostrand has quite an expansive mezzanine of emptiness. The only other person I saw when I went up there was a station cleaner.
Pre-GOH
Post-GOH
Pre-GOH
Post-GOH
Not too many times I get to bark BIG TIME tekky posts. I know the HF equipment hands on...Technical Materiel Corporation GPT-10K transmitters running a cool 3.5 KiloWatts. Those 'atomic time' clocks receive a different signal...encoded transmissions a 60 Kc. which generally become updated in 'sleeping hours.' Nothing to get excited over...your wireless phone is pretty much clocked to sync and NYCTA time is two minutes SLOW. CI Peter worked the big transmitters and works the BIG TRAINZ now!
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/breaking_news/8257750.htm
I wonder if they will decide to sue her estate?
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/business/national/8251995.htm
http://www.duluthsuperior.com/mld/duluthsuperior/news/8210950.htm
:)
http://www.timesdispatch.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=RTD%2FMGArticle%2FRTD_BasicArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1031774429403&path=!business!columnists&s=1045855934868
http://newsobserver.com/nc24hour/ncnews/story/3436167p-3054533c.html
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp_world_business/view/75938/1/.html
I just barely made the 11:11 departure out of Camden, got the second-row left-side seats, and took in the sights from the railfan window. The sun brightened the whole trip [compared to last Tuesday's frozen mess], and the RiverLINE's car [3501] was hitting the station stops precisely at the time due [give or take a minute]. I got into Trenton at 12:13 [on the dot!], then got on the 606 bus to Princeton. I had lunch then strolled on Nassau St for awhile [pretty crowded for a small town]. Then I took a baby RTS on the 605, passing the "Dinky" station, then headed down to Quakerbridge Mall, passing the big box monstrosities on Rt. 1. Changed to the 603 [Flx Metro D], went down Rt. 1 and Business 1 into Trenton. Got off and got a ride on RTS 4002 [the Hybrid?], took a round trip on the 607, then returned to downtown Trenton. At 4 P.M. [rush hour], the city looks almost dead, not like 4 P.M. in Philly or Manhattan [crazy!], rode back to the RiverLINE station and got on the 4:30 departure, on [guess what?], car 3501. I was slightly distracted by the schedules, when I looked up again, we were already in Bordentown!
On the way back, the car encountered some deer crossing the tracks near Florence, [which pissed off the photographer on the train. He was talking to a yuppie about the line, in which the yuppie lamented that the line doesn't run after 9 P.M.], and hit our station stops on time. [On a side note, right before you get to the Delanco station, someone keeps a llama and some emu in his fenced-in yard next to the tracks. Check it out next time you ride the RiverLINE.]
I noticed that the opposing trains out of Camden were quite full, especially people transferring from PATCO. That was evident at the Walter Rand Transit Center, where about 75 people were waiting to get on the 5:41 departure. [My train arrived at 5:32, on the dot!].
It seems to me that the departures between 4:11 and 6:11 tend to carry the most people out of Camden, though I haven't discerned what departures out of Trenton carry the most people on weekdays.
To conclude, I recommend you railfan this line on weekdays. You have a more civilized ride, and the trains are very efficient and hit their stations on-time. If you mist do it on the weekends, then do it in the early morning, before the suburban joyriders ruin it the rest of the day.
Guess that's a variation on those idiotic "raise alpacas for fun and profit" TV commercials.
-Chris
Stillwell-interior, platforms, fare control
Thanks
-Chris
The station is at the intersection Of Smith Street and 9th Street. Actually West 9th Street. 4th Avenue is one station over.
http://www.morningjournal.com/site/news.cfm?BRD=1699&dept_id=46376&newsid=11156801&PAG=461&rfi=9
http://www.oudaily.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2004/03/22/405f6c0c48efa
That's an Oklahoma perspective on the subway???
http://www.greenwichtime.com/news/local/scn-sa-nor.bathrooms2mar22,0,6939116.story?coll=green-news-local-headlines
That has already happened. I was in GCT when nature called and I happened on the new facility when heading to the Transit Museum gift shop. It was a sharp contrast to the "Bowery" looking one at the other end. A recent visit, I noticed some skells loitering around.
When Penn Station (LIRR concourse) was rehabbed some years ago, a visit to the Men's room was almost like paradise. IT as new, clean and no skells. Back then, you needed to show your ticket to enter the restroom and passenger waiting area. That didn't last long.
This facility is often dirty, smelly, has broken stall doors and sounds and smells of the skells has made me go out of my way and use the NJT restroom upstairs. It's new, clean and they keep their eye out for undesirables. When you gotta go, you gotta go. You really shouldn't go to hell when doing so.
Bill "Newkirk"
Better have a ticket with you, now. My SO told me earlier this week that NJT is now beginning to ask for tickets from people entering their seating area.
http://www.stamfordadvocate.com/news/local/scn-sa-nor.station5mar23,0,4027859.story?coll=stam-news-local-headlines
http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=11165324&BRD=1817&PAG=461&dept_id=68561&rfi=6
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2004-03/23/content_1380047.htm
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/22/nyregion/22tour.html
When I try to access Forgotten NY with IE, I get a warning that "IE PLUGIN - Bargain Buddy, SaveNow" is trying to install itself!!
Isn't this know spyware/trogan?? WTF???
No idea what IE is...
www.forgotten-ny.com
It has been said it (IE) has more holes than a pound of Swiss cheese.
www.forgotten-ny.com
What's 'rogue'?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Sadly, Harry over at OSOTT is also hooked up with Valueclick and it's a damned shame. Wish we weren't the ones to have to break the news - $50 may be chump change but it DOES help to cover the bandwidth. However the *REAL* problem is IDIOTS who insist on using Internet Explorer that just keeps growing more and more security holes with each passing bandaid. :(
These hijackers get through security holes among people that absolutely MUST allow scripting, ActiveX downloads and not properly setting their security settings. They download "free software" and wonder how they got infected with all these nasties. As you (and anyone with half a brain stem) knows - there's NOTHING for free, there's always a cost and when profits turn thin for folks like valuelcick, they turn to the spammers and scammers who WILL write checks for those banner ads in hopes of luring in more "phish" ...
But that's the story, Jerry. :)
BargainBuddy IIRC is not just a BHO but a standalone program that will add itself to the registry like a lot of other spyware (fortunately, it also doesn't claim to be something else so its easily removed).
> However the *REAL* problem is IDIOTS who insist on using Internet Explorer that just keeps growing more and more security holes with each passing bandaid.
And dare I saay it, Windows? :) Unfortunately the majority of US users rely on Bill's software. I used Linux and switched to BSD and while they have their bugs, not as many are security related like Windows. And check out a manual page -- it TELLS you what the bugs are so there are no surprises.
The new signal control system at QBMT uses Windows and I'm surprised it doesn't crash often. Windows doesn't like proprietary hardware because it has to be in control. You can't simply ask the hardware to do something, you have to tell Windows to tell the hardware to do it. And I'd hate to think that someone used a Windows security hole to get into that one. The same system runs the phones so its obvious the system is NOT isolated from the outside world, which is a shame. Something like that should have no way in from the outside world. If NT Signals has to come on site to fix a problem everytime, so be it, they usually have to be there anyway when something goes wrong.
And I'm still wondering what the R142/R143 uses.
The presence of WINDOWS in transit operations is perhaps the most disturbing situation of all. We know NT stood as guardian over the Meatballcards and in the event of a major incident, about the worst that would happen is a loss of revenue until the situation was contained (be it folks having to be gated through broken turnstiles or theft of revenue by 'crackers') but nothing really serious as far as public safety goes.
Interlockings, signals and operation of trains however is a VERY serious matter - these are "vital systems" and Microsoft is ANYTHING but "vital" and their LICENSE sets that forth EXPLICITLY. UNIX is used for mission critical systems ranging from life support, 911 systems, telephony management, communications management, and even control of military systems. UNIX has been through tests of fire.
The use of Windows for anything other that the office desktops is downright DANGEROUS and there is NO WAY to MAKE it safe. In fact, the recent spate of Microsoft bandaids has only made the security situation FAR worse. :(
Let's see how long this lasts once Al Qaeda hits us where it really hurts, with blue screens aplenty.
If the BSoD doesn't occur first. :)
My thing against Windows is it doesn't need anything do be done for it to crash. Application moves from one track segment to another, and Windows allocates the memory for drawing that line. Picks the wrong memory address (which it does), overwrite memory used by the driver used by the driver to communicate with the hardware for interfacing with the interlocking relays (or even worse another routine of the same program) and BAMMO. You'd think Windows has been doing this since 95 that they'd figure out by now to protect memory space reliably.
Also someone just has to inadverttantly hit a wire. Pull the cord for the radio and BSoD. Happens regularly when I pull one of my Rainbow Sentinel tokens without giving Windows fair warning..
My concern isn't however a crash. System crashes, TW/O jumps to the model board to save the day. However when overwriting data in memory worse things can happen than crash.
WHY the TA didn't go with programmable logic or Unix instead of Billyware though is just beyond my comprehension. :(
When I went to BxS they used diskless X stations, you only had to worry about corruption on the server. An X station had no hard disk, it booted AIX (IBM's flavor of Unix) from the network. I don't know if that's really a better thing from an IT view, but its certainly better than trying to figure out what files are phucked on which machine. Of course with Unix's permissions system its really the superuser who can screw up the system files, assuming they don't have a dumbass password or don't add others to the superuser group, its only them responsible for screwing up the system.
> But the WORST thing of all is the "integration" of Aiyee into everything which exposes every process to invasion from the external world. THERE'S the big danger that exceeds all the other ones.
You don't even need IE. The machines at QBMT may be NT4 like every other outdated system the TA has bought recently, which means IE isn't integrated. The phones at QBMT do pass through the computers which means that they are NOT isloated and someone can get in that way. Bad. Such a large risk just to have the number of the line that ringing flash on the screen. I could look at the blinking light too and get the same information.
Seriously, folks - I can vouch for the safety of UNIX vs NT systems; at our site the UNIX boxes have been performing nearly-flawlessly since they were installed (in 1999) and the one server which DID crash due to a single HD failure (the other 5 in the rack were OK) was back up and running (minus the crashed HD) in under 1/2 hour. Our scanner NT box will be back up TOMORROW after losing one of its partitions. What a pain in the ass!
wayne
If you want a few reasons to do so read this: http://channels.lockergnome.com/news/archives/20040615_why_you_should_dump_internet_explorer.phtml
I personally switched after my Internet Explorer got hijacked, and for the life of me I could not get it to stop sending me to porn sites, I had to restore from backup to fix it. The spyware that got installed was able to switch my registry settings back after I fixed them, and actually stopped my spyware killer programs from running (Adaware, Spybot S&D). The Internet is quite a nasty place these days, and as you can see, even sticking to "good trustworthy sites" doesn't protect you.
SO fuggetaboutit!
I am now a proud user of Netscape 6.
BTW, Selkirk, what are some ways I *might* be able to fix IE and keep as much spyshit off of my pc. I have an Emachines WinXP with AOL Broadband provided by Time Warner Cable.
-Chris
Bottom line though, turning off EVERYTHING in "security settings" no longer works. :(
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
www.forgotten-ny.com
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/travel/articles/0321subway21.html
I am sure the writer did the "sandwiched subway" on purpose.
I am posting the article below in case the link posted by aem7 didn't work)
=================================================================
NYC's sandwiched subway celebrates its 100th year
Denis Horgan
Hartford (Conn.) Courant
Mar. 21, 2004 12:00 AM
NEW YORK - Like a coal miner, I slid into the tunnels under New York before dawn one day and didn't come out until after sunset. For more than 12 hours I rattled around below New York, sampling the array of experiences under the city. It was a full world tour compressed to a day's ramble.
For $2.
All year, the city is honoring the 100th anniversary of its subway transit system. More than 3 million people a day take to the rails to get to work, to a shop or a show, or to find their way home. On any given workday, far more people than reside in Wyoming, North and South Dakota, Vermont and Alaska combined flow through the arteries of New York City.
As with any community counting itself in such numbers, there are saints and zanies, edgy types and criminals, noble types and scholars. Musicians ply the stations; panhandlers sometimes work the cars. Students are everywhere, fresh cheek by jaded jowl with business moguls in overcoats that cost what cars cost. Parents bring their children; children bring their parents. There are folks from every nationality imaginable, from every creed, of every color, language and personal inclination of the human rainbow, thrown together to be hauled this way and that.
The system has been a success from the beginning, when on Oct. 27, 1904, the first electric IRT car ran from City Hall Park with Mayor George B. McClellan at the controls most of the way to 145th Street and Broadway in exactly the 26 minutes scheduled. An estimated 150,000 people rode the system that day, when the trains ran every three minutes at speeds reaching 45 mph. A ride cost 5 cents.
I rode every line: north, south, west, east. It was an international jaunt to Amsterdam and Jamaica - OK, Amsterdam Avenue and Jamaica, Queens - that covered four of the boroughs; I couldn't get to Staten Island without leaving the subway.
The Metropolitan Transportation Authority operates 8,453 trains and subway cars 24 hours a day - at two-minute intervals at rush hour and after 20-minute gaps in the wee hours.
There are maps everywhere with color-coded routes, and you can take long rides or short for your $2. In fact, you can ride as long as you want for your two-spot so long as you stay inside the stations.
Posted on Sun, Feb. 29, 2004
Track vandalism leads to subway evacuations in New York City
BY DEREK ROSE AND BILL HUTCHINSON
New York Daily News
NEW YORK - (KRT) - An apparently deranged Bronx man unleashed chaos in a Greenwich Village subway tunnel last night by hurling debris on the tracks - sparking a series of explosions and a blaze that brought trains to a screeching halt, officials said.
More than 1,000 straphangers had to be evacuated from six trains stuck south of the W. Fourth St. station, and at least five passengers were treated for smoke inhalation, fire officials said.
The underground scare, which underscored the city subway system's vulnerability to sabotage, left passengers shaken as they emerged from the smoke-filled tunnel.
"It was scary. The explosions were really loud," said Lola Braverman of Staten Island, who was evacuated from an F train.
The vandalism shut down large parts of six lines. Officials were scrambling to replace a 5-foot section of badly damaged track in time for the morning rush hour as they gave details of the terrifying incident.
The near-tragedy unfolded about 6:20 p.m. in the tunnel between the W. Fourth St. and Broadway-Lafayette stations, officials said.
D train motorman C. Cummings said he was headed northbound, about a 100 feet south of the W. Fourth St. station, when his train's headlights beamed on a disheveled man throwing debris on the track.
Cummings said the man threw fire extinguishers, at least two portable ladders and a set of wooden stairs on the tracks, making the section of tunnel impassable. The items were apparently Transit Authority equipment stored in the tunnel.
As Cummings brought the train and its 300 passengers to a stop, he saw the saboteur throw what appeared to be metal bolts at the electrified third rail. He said the impact of the bolts set off a series of explosions.
Cummings said the booms were followed by fire that sent smoke seeping into the subway cars.
As Cummings radioed for officials to cut the power to the third rail, at least five other trains in the tunnel - including a southbound F train on the tracks next to the D train - suddenly stopped.
Officials said three E trains and an A train also slammed on the brakes and had to be evacuated.
"Nobody knew what was going on. It was smoky, and everybody was trying to get out," said a passenger, a man in his 50s, who was being treated at St. Vincent's Medical Center for smoke inhalation last night. "We didn't know if there was a fire or a bomb, or what."
As firefighters rushed to douse the tunnel blaze, cops arrested the man believed responsible for the incident inside the W. Fourth St. station, officials said.
The suspect, Bonergy Quelal, 47, of the Bronx, was nabbed as he emerged from the tunnel bare-chested and covered in soot, officials said.
Police described Quelal, who was arrested last year in upstate Sullivan County for allegedly stealing mail, as emotionally disturbed.
Passenger Rachel Krause, 21, of White Plains, said she was on the F train with friends, filming a movie for a college project, when the incident occurred.
"Everyone was screaming, `What do we do? Tell us what to do,' " said Krause, a student at the State University of New York at Purchase, whose fictional film about a paranoid girl with a gas mask instantly became a reality flick about straphangers in need of gas masks.
Krause's friend Jessica Brunetto, 22, said that as smoked filled the car and the explosions outside resounded, passengers began to cover their faces with pieces of clothing.
"You could hear the train shaking and you could see the flair outside," said Brunetto. "None of us knew what was going on."
G, Franklin Ave Shuttle and the SIRT... how's that for turning everything on its head?
Le'see that there PERMIT, miss Krause.
G, Franklin Ave Shuttle and the SIRT... how's that for turning everything on its head?
There's certainly no shortage of law enforcement personnel but has the removal of the homeless, especially disruptive types, become a low priority if there's no clear violation of law? Is anyone aware of any directive changing the focus of station personnel to "security" issues while back-burnering "nuisance" issues like sleeping on the floor?
I've seen one office with a door marked "Amtrak Outreach" which sounds like the place that would concern itself with this issue. But I've never seen anyone enter or leave that office-- or seen any activity at all, come to think of it.
Probably some sort of EAP for their employees! ;-)
14-15+ years ago when New Kids on the Block had a Thanksgiving concert at MSG the world of the zombified homeless and sheltered bridge and tunnel preteen girls met in a surreal way.
Some of the more enterprising got off their cardboard mattresses and were asking for money.
Sweet Valley High Vs. Dawn of the Dead
I never thought of a confrontation like that.
On the second day, where I had only a few extra hours, and since I am a big MNRR fan, I walked to Park Avenue at 97th to see the exit portal. On the west side (southbound train side) of Park at 98th, I found a post missing from the old cast-iron fence that's supposed to prevent access to the tracks. I was able to step partially inside, stand on the edge and take some great photos, including one of a northbound train (I would have gotten the hell off there in a hurry if I had seen a southbound train coming). But what really amazed me was that while I stood on the old concrete ledge by the fence (and held on to the fence with one hand), I noticed I was standing only a couple of feet directly above the exposed third rail (which was on the outside of the track). I assumed that it was "live" and that any poor unsuspecting soul who fell or stepped down and touched it would meet the same fate as Robert Shaw's "Mr. Blue" in The Taking of the Pelham 1-2-3. Great photo-op for a railfan, but isn't this an incredible hazard and invitation for a huge wrongful death lawsuit if a child, or perhaps an intoxicated person, simply wanders in, fals, and touches the 3rd rail? Just curious.
dave (back home safely) in milwaukee
(p.s.: if my "low tech" photos come back OK tomorrow from my local Walgreens, I'll try to scan some on the 'net)
Go Brewers.
Now if the third rail was accessible out here in california (such as the LACMTA Red Line...) there'd be imbeciles frying by the minute. Poeple out here have shit for brains, all they wanna do is stick a cell phone in their ear and pretend they are someone important.
I usually just order a CD with my prints. Beats dealing with a "middleman" scanner, just like digital cameras beat the "Middleman" film processing.
This is not saying that either is a bad thing, but both are something I would rather not deal with.
Then they'll want to know why he was in a 'Non-Public Area', but he's right about drunks and kids wandering off.
-Chris
Actually, the exposed metal underneath can be touch *without* electrocution, as long as you're not touching either running rails (or even the ballast rail).
If so the black stuff is insulation.
Peace,
ANDEE
For a picture of Parsons breaking ground in City Hall Park go to
http://www.pbworld.com/aboutus/heritage/timeline.asp
and click on 1900.
Parson's quote on the opening page is very true:
"Of all human activites, engineering is the one that enters most into our lives, that gives us our means of living, and permeates every fiber of the social fabric."
It would be better to say that today in 1900, ground was broken at City Hall for the new New York City Subway.
Let's see that kind of speed on renivating Junction Blvd., then I'll be impressed.
As I really don't have the time to rewrite the scripts and redo all the photos (and its probably safe for me to not do so anyway), I'm extending a special offer to SubTalkers.
For this one time only you see my email address posted. Mail me which photos you like that you have seen (don't go nuts, and I will not honor "do you have..." emails), and I'll send you the original, free of charge. The originals are 4 MP so you'll have to do your own resizing. Usage is simple: use it on your site, just give me credit.
Did you have a backup? I have about 3 copies of everything on my site, including a backup of the SubwaySpot Community gallery. Everyone's work is safely backed up.
I'm also doing something kinda like what you had, using Flash, where when you click on a station, it takes you to a page on that station.
Some say "Yes it Does"
Others say "No it doesn't"
Some say "The tail tracks can be ramped down and under it"
Others say "Remove the Lower Level"
*I* say "Why the hell do they want to do this useless project anyway!"
: ) Elias
One of the problems caused by building the Javits Center where they did is that it is not that easy to get to except by street transportion (Bus, car, walking). Some of those streets can get very congested at times and that might put people off of having exhibitions etc there.
Extension of the #7 would allow for mush faster and easier access to/from midtown and 2 major transit hubs - Grand Central and Port Authority Bus terminal. It would also allow people using the subway to/from JFK a better way to get to the Javits Center (OK they would have to change trains but it would still be easier than having to negotiate street traffic).
I always *drove* to the Yankee Games, but that is beacuse they were in the Bronx, and I was in Merrick.
Now if the game was by the river there, I would never have considered the car, but would have taken the LIRR to NYP, and would have WALKED from there!
Sheesh!
You're right though, the far west side has no subway. Ya wanna get crosstown, either 8 bucks for NY Water Taxi around the island or 2 bux for a slow ass M42.
Why not have the ROW turn south at around 8th Avenue, where the LL of 42nd/8th is, then have it turn west under 34th Street, then have the line run down 11th Avenue and the West Side Highway to 14th Street.
Then, extend the L west from 8th Avenue to the West Side Highway to the Javits Center. The line in the overlapped Extended 7/Extended L line would be 4 track, with the L on the outside tracks at a new stop at 14th/10th, the 7 on the outside track at new stops at 23rd/11th, 34th/11th, 34th/9th, and 36th/8th, then 3 tracks, with the 7 on the outside, and the middle track would connect to the 8th Avenue Line, which would be reconfigured to accept a middle track between 42nd St and 36th/8th, which would be at grade with the 8th Avenue Line around 39th Street. This middle track would be, IIRC, the first connection between the BMT Eastern Division and the IND, that doesn't involve closing an existing line.
Here are some ASCII drawings of what I'm talking about:
Junction south of 42nd/8th
| ** | | ** |
| ** | | ** |
A1**A3 A4**A2
| ** | | |
| /| | /
| | | | /
| A3 AQ| |
| /| ^ | |
|/ | | |
Track AQ splits into 2 tracks, Q1N, and Q2N at the ^ mark. The station begins just south of the split. Same platform configuration as the upper level. Mezzanine connecting uptown and downtown sides moved north to remain clear of the tracks at Penn Station. New subway construction just north of Penn Station Track 21.
Level of tracks at 34th Street/11th Avenue curve below that of all tracks associated with Penn Station and the West Side Yard.
Level of tracks rises to just below street level along 11th Avenue, with adequate protection from water damage for the portion under the West Side Highway.
The new mezzanine will be under the lower level tracks, and ramps from Penn Station will connect to it.
Well, at least it's another way to get trains out of the BMT-Eastern Division lines (chainings J, M, P, and Q) if the WillyB closes again. And for those going from stations served along the L line, a one-seat ride to Penn Station.
But having extended both the (7) and the (L), wouldn't it be nice to extend the OTHER end of the (L) too. After All Canarsie doesn't need as many trains as points north of Bway Jctn. Thus:
Elias
Correct. I already have a plan to put a loop at the eaat end of the lion. (Scroll to the bottom).
A spur of to LAG could also bleed off some of the excess traffic that Main Street cannot handle.
Elias
--Mark
I believe it was said in archived threads that there is a downgrade grade present on the tracks so that no work on the level is necessary.
An extension to points farther south would be an obvious next step, but given the backlog of worthy transit projects, it's probably a distant dream.
Weekend Rail Use Up
I think it's unusual to see higher use on weekends than on weekdays. It seems the hope that people would ride the RiverLINE to waterfront events is coming true, even if workday commuters aren't flocking to it.
Mark
Let's hope the naysayers about the River-Line being a waste of taxpayer money, continue to be proven to the contrary.
I also hope it doesn't turn out to be the disaster that has been predicted. I think a lot of things will have to take place to make that happen, though. If the line spurs commercial and residential development around its stations, then we'll be in business. I think that's the most important piece of the puzzle. I'm not sure what the outcome will be without that sort of development.
Mark
Barhopping from Trenton to Camden? I am so #%#@#@ there!!!! I haven't seen a decent transit system combined with drinking since PSU, more people shoudl try it. Though the Tampa TECO is almost close, but with 144 something bars at one station and 3 at anohter, doesn't really work that well. What type of bars are there anyway? Is it like Irish pubs, or something really inner-city like a basement bar or what?
Anyway, this is interesting. I believe once you have people using it for recreation and not commuting, people moving in aren't that far behind. Take a look at spring training and Disney World, without that I wouldn't have to deal with all you folks moving in! And the TECO line in Tampa, made for recreation, is int he process of getting 3 30 story apartment/condo towers and 2 hotels ON teh line and advertising that fact(and the car-free fact as a selling point).
And as far as those people trying to "save" us from making a mistake of building the line, even if they finally have a point somewhere, I'm so used to their BS I don't even pay attention anymore. They should read "The Boy Who Cried Wolf".
The Canal Streetcar in New Orleans comes to mind...
Also, I hope you're right about development along the RiverLINE following the rec travellers like it did in Tampa. I'll be watching this one.
Mark
I haven't really payed attention to the subject, but I'm pretty sure that even train or no train people always moved into touristy area's. They see a place they like or like visiting, they move in closer, and a train ties all that together.
Florida Beaches, Orlando, which other than working for tourism, why would anyone want to live there??? Vegas, one of the fastest growing cities even though everyone who lives there seems to tell me how much they dislike it.
Of course there's some outliers to my theory. Atlantic City comes to mind. That place didn't have a long lifecycle before it became the pits unfortunately.
I guess we'll see, That article sounds more promising than I originally thought it was.
Chuck
Although most of the park-and-ride lots tend to be somewhat empty, but I see a lot of parking at Bordentown. I noticed on Tuesday that the 409 bus out of Trenton is carrying less than half than they carried before the line opened, many bus riders have switched to the rail line, especially to Bordentown and Robeling. The bus took 30 to 45 minutes to get to these towns, compared to 15 to 20 minutes on the RiverLINE.
The weekend numbers tend to be somewhat inflated, since a lot of these people tend to drag their little kids on [who tend to ride free with their parents], but if they are going by the numbers of tickets sold in the machines, then the number may be accurate.
I wonder if they are counting the users of monthly bus passes [like me] who do not pay the fare on the line.
But the numbers on weekdays and weekends look promising. The line is only 2 weeks old, so let's see what will happen in the future.
How about extending the Times Sq/Grand Central Shuttle?
I propose running a 2-track shuttle (one train goes back and forth on each track) using the existing 42nd street trackage as is to run from Grand Central to Times Sq, then turning south to run alongside the 7th Ave IRT down to Penn Station, where it serves a fourth island platform built alongside the 3 existing ones. Then it cuts under the IRT tracks and across 34th street (or some other street around there - probably a few blocks south of 34th as I try to visualize this) and reaches its terminus near Javits where the proposed 7 station would be. From there the shuttle heads back across 3x-th, under the 7th Ave IRT tracks, turns up 7th Ave, makes a stop at Penn serving a 4th side platform, up 7th turning east around 42nd to stop at the existing Times Sq shuttle platform, then to Grand Central.
Alternately, the Penn Station shuttle platform could be located crosswise to the main line IRT tracks, at a lower level.
I think this plan would connect all the major transit hubs (for example, how would you get from Penn Station to Grand Central? You need to take two separate trains to do it, although ESA will alleviate this). Under this plan you could travel between any of those four stations (Javits, Penn, Times Sq and Grand Central, with possible extension to 2nd Ave and 42 if the SAS ever gets built...) on a Metrocard fare.
I don't have the track maps in front of me but it seems doable... any ideas?
They couldn't even tunnel under those tracks to come up on the other side because you have a portion of the BMT Broadway line passing under the shuttle tracks.
The extension of the #7 would be the best way to go.
What I don't know is if there's enough room "east" of the 4 tracks between 34th and 42nd to add the additional tracks - if not some other setup is needd.
In fact, the original proposal for the #7 extension would have followed exactly the route you're proposing. The #7 is at a deeper level than the shuttle, but even so, designers ran into serious constructability issues along 7th Avenue.
I agree on the desirability of a one-seat ride between Penn Station and GCT--that's the reason why the original #7 extension proposal would have followed that route. But it poses overwhelming engineering difficulties.
But on another note... I'm not picking on you in particular but on a general trend over the last few decades:
>>But it poses overwhelming engineering difficulties.<<
The Great Wall of China posed overwhelming engineering difficulties.
The Great Pyramid at Gizeh posed overwhelming engineering difficulties.
The Roman aqueduct system posed overwhelming engineering difficulties.
Crossing the Atlantic and circumnavigating the world both posed overwhelming engineering difficulties.
The Brooklyn Bridge, the George Washington Bridge, the Golden Gate Bridge, the Verrazano Bridge, and the Akashi Kaikyo bridge all posed overwhelming engineering difficulties.
Building the first airplane, the first helicopter, the first rocket, the first SST, all posed overwhelming engineering difficulties.
The Hoover Dam posed overwhelming engineering difficulties.
The Panama Canal posed overwhelming engineering difficulties.
The Eiffel Tower posed overwhelming engineering difficulties.
The Empire State Building posed overwhelming engineering difficulties.
The Berlin airlift posed overwhelming engineering difficulties.
Putting 12 men on the moon posed overwhelming engineering difficulties.
The English Channel Tunnel posed overwhelming engineering difficulties.
Creating Michael Jackson's face posed overwhelming engineering difficulties :)
Yet every one of these feats was accomplished, and every single one of those things built exists to this day, most are still in regular use. Most of them were built or accomplished with far, far, far, less resources than are available today, often in the middle of major wars, famines or plagues. They stand as a testament to the ingenuity and resiliency of Man to develop his environment.
So someone tell me why it's so friggin' hard to dig a 6 mile trench along 2nd Avenue and lay some tracks? A project of even larger scope was accomplished 100 years ago, this by guys with shovels and pickaxes; one of the major sources of horsepower was, well, horses...
Have we really devolved this far into NIMBYhood, namby-pamby indecision and legalistic quadriplegia that we can't do anything even remotely approaching what has been done in past generations? I mean, what have we done with the NYC subway system in the last 40 years?
2 miles of track connecting the E and J in Jamaica. Woohoo.
A little dinky stretch of track connecting to the Manhattan Bridge. Granted, it changed service patterns tremendously, but it's still a little dinky stretch of track along Chrystie St.
A tunnel under the East River (like that hasn't been done 10 times already...)
Rebuilding a quarter mile of track destroyed by terrorists.
And how much was done in the first 40 years of operation of the NYC subway? How long has the SAS (indeed the whole IND second system) been "on the books?" How much of that has been built?
I see the future, and it doesn't bode well for us...
While we're at it, how about a northward extension of the L instead or in addition?
Then he would have died a nobody. Robert Moses was very much a product of his time.
Finance...and the competition for money.
And oh, by the way, the present Channel Tunnel was something like the fourth attempt over the last 100-or-so years.
According to one of the other posters (can't remember who, though..) the original plan to extend the 7 was routed along the same path as I propose for the shuttle, though it was ruled out in favor of the current plan, which doesn't provide that one-seat connection.
How to make your dream come true? Your shuttle line would need to start descending going west right after crossing over the 6th Avenue subway, then go below the maze at Times Square (note the the BMT downtown local is actually lower than the other tracks at that point - can you figure out why?).
Yes, eventually you have a one seat from GCT to Penn, but for a 3 car train!! The #7 has 11 car trains is would be far cheaper to travel west.
I think what I was mainly driving at, though, is that if we never try we'll never succeed at anything. And most of the ventures I listed (and many of the ventures that failed) posed far, far more overwhelming engineering difficulties than what I'm talking about (basically, using century-old technology or slight variants thereof, to lay tracks to run new subway lines alongside 20-some-odd already existing ones). If we can't do with modern equipment what our grandfathers did with pickaxes and steam shovels, then we've become a sad, sad race indeed.
I fear that's already happened in New York. Thank God for the Sunbelt, where the can-do attitude is still strong, as otherwise this country would really be in a pickle.
One of the problems that has prevented any light rail along the 42nd St corridor is that rerouting the traffic to other streets would cause more problems than the Light Rail would solve.
One of the plans was to have the LR run on the south side of 42nd St on have the traffic on the north side of the street operate in only on direction(either eastbound or westbound). That means that one direction of cars would have to be put on 43rd St. When you consider that the smaller side streets have trouble with the minimal traffic they have now putting the relocated 42nd St traffic on them would just about shut the streets in that down. Nobody would get anywhere.
Back when the trolleys were operating on 42nd they operated in the middle of the street. There were less traffic problems back then because there were less cars and trucks.
I am not saying that I don't think that a 42nd St LR isn't a good idea, it is just that the potential problems at the moment outweigh the benefits.
Make the L an IRT line, and connect TSQ/42 on the Flushing with 14/8 Crosstown with a N/S line through the Javits and down 10th Ave
If that's a legitmate economic strategy, why not plan for the Flushing Line extension, promise it, even float debt for it and get people to build office buildings, stadiums and convention centers in anticipation that it will be there. Then, divert the money elsewhere and don't build it after all, taking the "realistic" view that people should just walk from 8th Avenue. It worked on the East Side, after all.
I would call it governmental fraud, though that’s maybe a tautology…
To really get the East Side Experience, however, you'd have to demolish two old but perfectly usable elevated lines in anticipation of the (never to be built) 7 extension.
Promise them a Northern Blvd Subway, then tear down the Astoria and Flushing Els.
Somewhere up there - sorry, somewhere down there - Abe Beame is smiling.
The smell of steel dust is death in itself.
Better to sink and build new ones...well if the funds are there anyway.
Only in your dreams.
This is not merely NIMBYism; even those who don't live there generally oppose the idea.
At 41st and 8th, the 7 emerges from "under" the 8th Ave IND, some 70-80 feet below street level. The High line starts around 11th Ave and 34th street, something like 30 feet above street level.
Between those two points is a distance of about 4000-5000 feet (going due west on 41st, then turning south around 11th Ave, and in that distance the train must rise at least 100 feet, perhaps closer to 150 feet depending on the topography. That's an awful steep slope for a train to negotiate.
I personally think it would be a better idea to run a far west side subway, perhaps starting near South Ferry, running up West St through BPC, past the WTC/WFC, then up West to 10th Ave to 11th Ave, then up 11th to the UWS, then turning to cross 125th Street, then into Queens, terminating at LaGuardia. This line would provide more convenient service for BPC and west midtown customers, as well as providing service across Harlem and on a new line through Queens. Transfer would be available to all the lines serving the South Ferry complex, all the lines at the WTC, an extended L at 14th and 10th, an extended 7 at 34th and 11th, and underground transfer tunnels to the 1-2-3-9 at 72 and 96. From there it would loosely follow the path of the M60 bus, running with the 1-9 up to 125, sinking down in the early 120s to follow the surrounding topography (while the IRT surfaces and is vaunted over 125 to maintain level trackage), then across 125 (transfers available at 8th Ave to the A-B-C-D, 6th to the 2-3, Park to MNRR, Lex to the 4-5-6, and at 2nd Ave to the SAS (which just shows how out of touch with reality I am...), into Queens (possible transfer to the Astoria line) and finally to LaGuardia Airport.
Unless you were going to put the avenues in underpasses -- hard to do on those with subways under them -- and give 42nd Street 3 to 1 signal priority, I don't see how that is much better in a bus.
In the heavily trafficked CBD, it doesn't matter if it's BRT, LRT, or just RT, you need grade separation.
There is a very inexpensive alternative. Build a station on the north side of the West Side rail yard. Extend LIRR service via a shuttle from Penn Sta, when there are shows at the Javits. Total cost is probably around $30 million and it could be operational within one year.
Of course, the city, state, etc. may decide to build a stadium over these yards that would preclude such an inexpensive solution. Wouldn't be the first time they made such a short sighted blunder.
Right now being accessable only by car, bus or walking sort of makes it unattractive to exhibitors who might want a lot of people attending. A viable rail link would make a noticeable increase attendence.
Why do MSG events usually get filled up so quickly - easy transportation to/from the Garden (subway/railroad and yeah bus).
The same goes for Yankees games and (OK you don't have to twist my arm) Mets games.
Le'see that there PERMIT, miss Krause.
http://www.nynewsday.com/other/special/amny/
This is in pdf fromat and is on page 2. I'm guessing it doesn't link directly to the pdf page so you have to click on the front page cover to read the article in RUSH HOUR|REALITY (A)(2)(Z)
In my opinion something definitely doesn't add up. I can't see why they would say such bullshit. I would like your opinions on this.
Hogwash, the MTA should implement Cityticket to Far Rockaway customers.
I have worked with plenty of people who live in Connecticut, but would drive to the Harlem line in NY because the New Haven is just too expensive.
And as far as what's stopping the Far Rockaway customers from taking the "A", well the same question could asked about what's stopping the Flushing customers from taking the "7", what's stopping the Wakefield, Woodlawn Williamsburg customers from taking the "2", Fordham customers from taking the "D", Marble Hill, Spuyten-Duval, Riverdale customers from taking the "1".
Maybe the answer is that Far Rockaway customers, just like other NYC customers should have the same alternative of taking the commuter railroads for that $2.50 price tag as opposed to dealing with GOs and long commutes that the subways have to offer on weekends.
Here are some of the examples:
Jamaica and Flushing were Zone 2, other stations in Eastern Queens were Zone 3. On the Babylon branch, Rockville Centre, Baldwin and Freeport were Zone 5; Merrick, Bellmore and Wantagh were Zone 6 and Seaford, Massapequa and Mass. Park were Zone 7. On the Long Beach, Centre Ave, East Rock and Oceanside were Zone 5, Island Park and Long Beach were Zone 6. Oceanside parking was frequently over-run with people from Long Beach.
I'm not as sure about these -- Carle Place and Westbury were Zone 5, Hicksville Zone 6, Syosset and CSH Zone 7. I think both Bethpage and Farmingdale were Zone 7. I don't have any recollection of how the OB line broke down into 5, 6 and 7.
There was also a Zone 1A and Zone 1B. 1A was Penn, Woodside, Forest Hills, Kew Gardens, Elmhurst and Shea Stadium. 1B was all other stations currently in Zone 1. The cost to ride to a 1B station was less than that to a 1A station.
CG
It's not even comparable. The 7 runs every 4-5 minutes, and
it's 33 minutes from Flushing to Times Square, versus 66 minutes for the A on 16 minute peak Sat. headways. CityTicket would be far more valuable for the Rockaways.
Why do you feel that the Far Rockaway customers should not have these alternatives?
On the contrary, I meant that it's that much more important that CityTicket be offered to Far Rockaway. For one, it would draw a lot more new riders from Far Rockaway than any of the other stops... and what good is the cost of implementing the thing if it's not drawing loads of new riders? I only cited Flushing because I live there and knew the approximate travel time off the top of my head; I didn't feel like looking through a bunch of Bronx timetables :).
They do have these alternatives. Nobody says they cannot take the LIRR. They just have to pay more. Hell, years ago they had to pay double on the subway. They still have to pay a toll if they want to drive off the peninsula without going roundabout through Nassau. Life isn't fair.
As far as that toll, Rockaway residents have to pay a toll on one bridge and that's the Marine Pkwy bridge and that is a very discounted rate- $.75 per trip. The Cross Bay is absolutely free of charge. This was all bought about through years of fighting with beauracracy. This is just another fight that we have to have with the LIRR.
No, you really don't want to go there.
1. Automobile registration
2. Utility bills (I believe you need 2 proofs, not sure how many)
Once you do this, somehow MTA Bridge & Tunnels programs your EZ Pass sticker where as everytime you pass through the tolls at Cross Bay Bridge, that it will record that you passed through, but you will not be charged.
The same is done for the Marine Pkwy Bridge. However, the only difference is that we are charged for that bridge, but only .75 as opposed to the regular $1.50 or $1.75 (whatever the toll is).
How is it technically feasible without hiring a lot more conductors and adding quite a few minutes to the schedule? Inbound, how do you verify that a passenger really got on at Inwood, as opposed to their claim of getting on at FR? Outbound, do you check tickets on the way out to make sure no one with a FR ticket gets off at Inwood?
What do you think of this: Suppose that LIRR sold you a CityTicket pass based on NYC residency. That is, if you could prove you live in NYC, you could commute from any LIRR station, regardless of where that station was, as long as you either exited the train in a New York City station, or started your trip in New York City.
Is that better?
CityTicket is offered to ALL customers, regardless on whether the customer lives in NYC or New England country.
So, I have a house in Inwood (the next stop after FR), and I walk 1/4 mile to the branch terminal, I would be outraged at proving that I live in NYC just to save $4.25.
Better?
Metro-North runs maids, butlers etc. up to wealthy Westchester employers on the reverse commute. Those folks could use a discount...
1. City Ticket is only available on weekends.
2. I hadn't realized that the LIRR and MNRR were now welfare programs.
3. Butlers? Do they still exist?
You bring up an interesting point, indirectly.
If commute against the rush hour occasionally on MNRR or LIRR, you get a discount from the full fare, namely an off peak ticket. But if you commute every weekday, the cheapest is the same monthly that the inbound commuters buy. So even though the outbound AM trains have to head on out anyway to pick up a new load of inbound commuters, the regular riders get zilch extra discount for being opposite-to-rush hour riders.
To look at it another way, a monthly makes sense inbound if you ride around 12 days a month. Outbound, you have to ride about 17 days to save any money over individual tickets.
You're right. Maybe it's time to consider the whole gestalt of the fare structure.
The employers might pick up thr tab.
CG
This all presumes that the maid is paying any income tax -- which, 99% of the time is simply not true. The world of maids, housekeepers and nannies is an off the books, cash in full at the end of the week world.
Anybody who needs a maid or a butler should be ashamed of themselves. They should clean up their own messes, lazy bastards. I couldn't stand having some stranger always knowing how sloppy I was at home. Same goes for those woman who hire nannies. Excepting for medical reasons or something similar, it's a disgusting thing to do. Why do these women have babies if they don't want to devote their lives to the child for a few years? Instead, these folks must put their children into their "managable resources" list. As if...the kid was like a piece of equipment that depreciates.
No way, it's not my job to clean up my mess, and I sure as hate doing it. If I could afford it, I would have a maid. I don't believe that everyone should do everything for themselves, civilization advanced because people became more specialized in their work.
I agree with you about the nannies though. If people don't want to take care of their own children, they shouldn't have them. Having children should be considered a privilege and not a right.
What are you suggesting?
You know, the funny thing is that nobody can explain why in the hell would the LIRR move the station, which was right there on the main street of Far Rockaway 5 country sized blocks away to a deserted location back in 1958.
Simple, the LIRR had the Rockaway Branch (todays A train to the Rockaways), until a 1950 trestle fire somewhere along the Rockaway ROW gutted the line. The LIRR decided to transfer ownership to NYCT, which rebuilt the line (2 new bridges) and was fully opened to Mott Ave the same year the old LIRR Far Rockaway station was relocated to Nameoke St and Redfern Ave in 1958. The LIRR was more interested in the current FR line then rebuilding the Rockaway line.
I specifically asked "why in the hell would the LIRR move the STATION, which was right there on the main street of Far Rockaway 5 country sized blocks away to a deserted location back in 1958"?
I didn't ask nothing about the abandonment of the Rockaway line.
If you're trying to imply a racial/ethnic connection with the LIRR's decision to locate the Far Rockaway station where it is, then I believe the answer would have to be "Because the LIRR is biased against the Irish and the Jews". If I'm not mistaken those were the two largest ethnic groups in Far Rockaway in the late 50's.
So it didn't matter if the bullets were fired at JFK, came from the grassy knoll or from the warehouse.
What ethnicity is it that exists in Far Rockaway that doesn't exist in similar proportions in Locust Manor or around many other LIRR stations?
The statement that ethnicity plays a role in this decision is absurd on its face.
CG
The rest of Nassau and Suffolk don't have railroad lines that go back into the City.
That's because your tax dollars wouldn't be going toward providing reduced priced rides to some of the wealthiest neighborhoods on Long Island!!!
CG
March 15, 2004 Press Release
January 9, 2004 press release
October 14, 2003 press release.
Congrats to Tom Kelly's office for a screwed up job.
I would be in favor of making Bellerose and Floral Park eligible for CityTicket use, because the stations are within a block or so of NYC and serve a lot of NYC customers. And I would favor Far Rockaway's inclusion too, due to the need to offer the Rockaways additional affordable travel options.
But the definition of a CityTicket station is one inside NYC boundaries. That's it.
Oh, no? Looks like it's pretty far on the "Queens" side of that county line to me.
And that's even before NYC was incorporated into the 5 boroughs in 1898 too.
According to this Queens bus map, it's in New York City.
If the error you pointed out on the Queens bus map was true, I would've DUH'ed it a long time ago.
Look at the border between Queens and Nassau, and look where the FAR ROCKAWAY station is in relation to that line.
BTW, I should have said 1999 map. Sorry. I really need to throw it out and get a new one...
I had a paper 2001 MTA Queens Bus Map open in front of me when I posted. The on-line reference you provided is correct.
Very well. However, it still doesn't mean ethnicity has anything to do with it. The Far Rockaway Line leaves NYC and serves a stretch of Nassau. Unlike other LIRR lines, the train recrosses the boundary and then hits the last stop. Making Far Rockaway a CityTicket station would put MTA in the position of saying that a much longer trip costs you less than the shorter one on that line. In light of that, I understand their decision.
This is why an NYC residency feature might help Rockaway residents.
The LIRR is slower than the A train?
It's 49 minutes @ $2.50 cash fare (or plastic) vs. 1 hour and 20 minutes via. Metrocard and the A train.
I'm pretty sure he was referring to a CityTicket trip from Far Rockaway costing less than a standard off-peak trip from the Five Towns, not the A train being the shorter ride...
CG
And you understand that Cityticket should not be offered at all Metro-North stations except for Univ and Morris Heights, and LIRR Penn, Flatbush, Woodside, Nostrand, ENY, Jamaica and Flushing because they all are within walking distance to a subway station, if based on the MTA's theory.
And you understand their decision too!
MTA's policy is a reasonable one, though I think they can improve on it. I would be in favor of giving Rockaway residents access to CityTicket from their station, but not Nassau residents.
Staten Islanders get a free ferry ride and free use of Staten Island Railway except for St. George. Giving bonafide Rockaways residents (with proof of residency) a $2.50 LIRR ride would be nice.
I don't know if MTA would go for it, but we can try...
And notice the high passenger volumnes at Tompkinsville station, the next stop from St. George.
I'm sure the agency is also fully aware that the people getting off at Tompkinsville look like idiots sprinting up the hill on Bay St, only to curse out loud when they just miss the boat :).
Your point about "making Far Rockaway a CityTicket station would put MTA in the position of saying that a much longer trip costs you less than the shorter one on that line" sound like beaucratic mess.
I again state Far Rockaway is a part of NYC, and as such should get all of the "perks" that ALL other communities in NYC receive, INCLUDING CityTicket.
And your point about ethnicity, again, I say prove it.
If you think MTA is discrminating against Far Rockaway due to race, it's up to you to prove it. I see no evidence of that. If anything, the elimination of the double fare into the Rockaways as well as elimination of the double bus-subway fare was a step that helped Rockaway residents by giving them more affordable transit.
Accusing MTA of discrimination without presenting any evidence is irressponsible and sad.
Sound familiar?
There are a bunch of archived threads on how to revive it from its hey-day. I remember reading how the state was considering legalized gambling. In that case, I'd nominate the Donald to do the bidding. The only problem I see is logistics. Time to revive the LIRR Rockaway ROW?
The neighborhood, yes, the station, no. MTA's Queens Bus Map depicts the LIRR station as being just outside the citry limit.
Bellerose is the name of an NYC neighborhood, but the LIRR Bellerose station is actually in Nassau County, which is why it is not a CityTicket station.
Every inch of Far Rockaway, Rockaway Beach, the whole peninsula, including the LIRR station is in the County of Queens, which is one of 5 counties (or boroughs) that officially make up New York City.
I should know this since I personally have live here going on 30 years.
Please view the NYCT Queens bus map. Thank you! Apology accepted.
Sheesh, I can see why AP has a point in which RonInBayside has not proven anything worthwhile.
So morally, I agree FR should be part of Cityticket. Practically, there's no way to implement it without major expense and lots of confrontations.
So what do you think of Newkirk Plaza David's idea of running an express train which would stop only at NYC stations? Such a train would accept CityTickets.
1. Ideally, people travelling between Far Rockaway and other City LIRR stations should be able to use City Ticket.
2. The LIRR has a concern about fare collection. Weekend Far Rock trains make only Zone 4 stops before Jamaica, so the conductor may only come around between Valley Stream and Jamaica but they still get their revenue. The fare between, say, Cedarhurst and Penn is $5.25, while the fare between Far Rock and Penn would be just $2.50. A person could board at Cedarhurst but present a City Ticket and claim that they boarded at Far Rock and the railroad would be out $2.75.
3. The westbound problem is a small one. Anyone enterprising enough to hop in their car, go buy a City Ticket, and then drive back to their Five Towns LIRR station is probably somebody who'd hide in the bathroom and avoid fare collection anyway.
4. The westbound problem is easily alleviated. City Tickets are only good on the day of purchase. Make them available at the Far Rockaway LIRR TVM and not at any other stations up the line. In order to use a City Ticket, there would be some code indicating to the conductor that it had been purchased at the Far Rock station.
5. Eastbound the problem is more difficult. A person can buy a City Ticket at Penn Station, say they're going to Far Rock, and just step off the train at Woodmere. Since the overwhelming majority of F.R. branch customers are long gone by the time the train gets to Inwood (has anyone ever seen the daily ridership stats from Far Rockaway station -- I think there are more replies in this thread than there are daily passengers) this could represent a sizable loss in revenue to the LIRR.
6. The Eastbound problem is a huge one, because it would be so easy to pull off. As long as you arrive at your city station a minute before the train, you can purchase a City Ticket from the TVM. I can't see why everyone wouldn't do it.
7. There are two solutions to the Eastbound problem. Neither is ideal. The first is to have a designated Far Rockaway car on eastbound trains. This car (or married pair) would board riders in the city, but would not open doors at stations in Nassau. Clearly, the Professional Racism Detectors will have a problem with this. The second solution is based on the solution to the westbound problem. Only CityTickets purchased at Far Rockaway station would be accepted going eastbound as well. This way, a Far Rock resident could buy two City Tickets at the station and make a round-trip. Of course, this doesn't solve the problem for other people whose day doesn't start at Far Rock, but whose trip should otherwise qualify for city Ticket.
That's how I see the possible options. Not perfect, but I think it could be done better than it is today.
CG
#7b I guess this could work, but two things -- 1) as you mentioned, people who start their trip in Manhattan [or who take the A to manhattan and LIRR back home] will have no way of taking advantage of the fare. Secondly, the drive from Inwood [or Lawrence even] to F.R. is a quick one -- and hell, it's one I'd take if I could go get 50% off then drive back to Inwood and park. Might not be a big problem.
The line simply has a problem of making just about every stop in Nassau EXCEPT for the last stop. Perhaps the LIRR's easy way to deal with something like this would be to terminate at Inwood -- which I wonder if they are planning to do considering the new trains' voices say that the last stop is Inwood already. I live in Far Rockaway and I'm afraid to take the train there... I'll hop on the LI BUS to Inwood or have my wife drive me if I need to LIRR to/from work :-)
Rich
Have trains to/from Far Rockaway/Jamaica, stopping at Far Rockaway, Rosedale, Laurelton, Locust Manor(NO STOPS IN NASSAU). Once you get to Jamaica, change for wherever your going. I know theres room on the railroad for it. It could simply be a 4 car shuttle that goes back and forth.
Also run the regular hourly trains with the same stops, and keep the current rules of CityTicket on those trains(Jamaica, Rosedale etc...) with Far Rockaway being the regular Zone 4 Price.
Rich
Most Far Rockaway trains stop at Rosedale, Locust ValleManor, and Laurelton.
On weekdays that is the case. On weekends -- when City Ticket is in effect, the Long Beach branch covers the Locust Manor, Laurelton and Rosedale and the Far Rock trains run express from Valley Stream to Jamaica. This has been the case since long before City Ticket was even a twinkle in anyone's eye.
I have no idea why they do this.
To the East River!
AEM7
It's only been under construction for 4 years and been in many press releases during that time. You gotta stop hanging around the Green Line!!!
BTW, it opens next month.
Rumor has it Orange may go OPTO if ridership allows cuts (4 car trains) after evening rush and on Sundays. These would be fixed into the schedule, guards would be on all six car trains.
Yes, and I've always wondered why. The British Rail tradition is for guard to operate out of the rearmost vehicle, in case of a train separation, but that is mostly a vacuum-brake age practice where there would be no brake force in the rear half if the train broke in two. These days, guards can technically ride anywhere on the train, but wouldn't cab 6 have a much better view of draggers, along the whole train, than cab 5, where the guard has to look forward and back?
Rumor has it Orange may go OPTO if ridership allows cuts (4 car trains) after evening rush and on Sundays.
Don't believe everything you hear. Orange Line, especially on the North end, is really overcrowded at the rush hour. Things are better in the off-peak, but six-car trains are still needed given the kinds of frequencies that are running. I've heard that maintenance dept. kept wanting to cut the car counts back, but there's just no way that will happen given the loads, unless there's going to be some serious overcrowding.
YIKES! I've ridden six-car Orange Line trains that were packed to the rafters.
Todd, try riding in "unpopular" cars. The back ends of Orange Line trains when travelling Northbound will tend to be crowded because Forest Hills, Green St., and Mass Ave stops encourage patrons to board towards the back, and the Downtown Crossing exit is also towards the back. Going Southbound, the load is a bit more spread out, but that is also the most constrained direction in terms of peak loads.
AEM7
Da Hui
UMMM, have you looked in a mirror recently?
Peace,
ANDEE
back to the TRAINS, boiz.
Here's a pic
http://www.triviatribute.com/tinalouise.html
Don't tell SEPTA that! If they knew about diesel power they wouldn't have an excuse for quickly implementing commuter service to Reading.
: )
Mark
Sorry for the confusion.
Mark
--Mark
The proposal's already been made after the Spanish bombings for Amtrak, who said given the number of passengers, it can't be implemented but overall security is an ongoing process.
Beware of postings on rail boards, take with gondola of salt.
It's not just SubTalk!
Yes all these programs are not 100 percent fool proof, just like everything else is not 100% secure, however with systems in place the chances of a COORDINATED Madrid type attack will probably not happen.
til next time
where would this station be, exactly?
what train lines would connect to it? where would those train lines go? would they be subway or commuter rail
where would the buses from the station go? what streets or highways would have direct access to the station?
where is the demand for a massive transfer station between subways and long-distance or commuter buses?
Without knowing these things, we can't evaluate your idea.
Based on what you have said, your plan seems impractical because the 2, 5, A and F trains run along four different avenues (7th, 4th, 8th and 6th), and the spacing between avenues is about 1000 feet, so your station would have to be 4000 feet long (about 3/4 of a mile long) in an area of very high real-estate values where there is little room for new construction. But you haven't really explained what benefits your proposal would bring. Many people on this board are well informed and critical, and they probably don't see the point. Besides, I don't think you have answered all of the questions put by toro-papa.
If you have doubts about your proposal, you could always tell us what you think about the rail services in your own area. Remember, this is not only a New York bulletin board.
Based on what you have said, your plan seems impractical because the 2, 5, A and F trains run along four different avenues (7th, 4th, 8th and 6th), and the spacing between avenues is about 1000 feet, so your station would have to be 4000 feet long (about 3/4 of a mile long) in an area of very high real-estate values where there is little room for new construction. But you haven't really explained what benefits your proposal would bring. Many people on this board are well informed and critical, and they probably don't see the point. Besides, I don't think you have answered all of the questions put by toro-papa.
If you have doubts about your proposal, you could always tell us what you think about the rail services in your own area. Remember, this is not only a New York bulletin board.
That's no excuse!
Actually, nor do I, but there is plenty of information on-line that you could study to get a better idea of what's what.
You might wish to study the subways as described on this site, and on www.mta.info where there is a Manhattan bus map.
You should state the purpose of your station, its exact location, and what problems it is intended to solve.
Go do your homework, and good luck!
Actually, nor do I, but there is plenty of information on-line that you could study to get a better idea of what's what.
You might wish to study the subways as described on this site, and on www.mta.info where there is a Manhattan bus map.
Also useful are those plots on census.gov which show population density to the block. Oh and who could forget Forgotten New York as a wonderful way of getting an e-feel of the place?
That's the plan.
AEM7
I doubt it was so much that as seeing the other train on the same track. From the Up Waterloo Curve at Nine Elms, the only tracks accesible are the Up Windsor (2 at Vauxhall) and the Windsor Reversible (1 at Vauxhall), either of which would be a fairly normal routing for the train to Waterloo. The train which was on an unusual routing was the Down train, which evidently must have been on the Windsor Reversible, rather than the normal Down Windsor Fast (3 at Vauxhall).
It was probably the signal problems themsleves rather than the position of these Eurostars which held up the commuter trains. A Eurostar train is 16 chains long, so the Up train would have easily cleared the Chatham Main, the Waterloo Curve being 50 chains in length. As these trains were on the Windsor Reversible, both Up and Down lines were available on all three commuter routes out of Waterloo. Eurostar will have been well and truly buggered, especially if the trains involved hadn't cleaerd the Junctions at each end.
Now it sure does...
I wonder what the Fat Controller will make of this latest incident... I seem to remember he wasn't too impressed the time Duck ended up in the barber's shop!
I recently purchased a few Thomas DVDs for my son and what a turn off to find out that Ringo Starr and/or his successor's voices have been dubbed with people like comedian George Carlin(of all people!) and actor Alec Baldwin. I might as well fly to the UK just to get the genuine ones...
Sacrilege!!!
wayne
1 chain=22 yards
UP to LONDON
DOWN to the PROVINCES
except in Scotland, where the assignment is arbitrary, and UP lines sometimes turn into DOWN lines. For example, from Glasgow, you go UP to Edinburgh on the LNER lines; but when you go UP to Edinburgh you go past Greenfield Upper Jct., which is actually further away from London than Glasgow; at Greenfield, UP line is joined to the DOWN line, because the branch leads to Stirling which is even further north; the main line leads to Edinburgh which eventually goes to London.
AEM7
wayne
Other British RR terms worth mentioning:
Calling=Stopping
Single=One way ticket
Return=Roundtrip ticket
Driver=Motorman, Engineer, T/O
Train guard=Conductor
Season ticket=Weekly/Monthly pass
Interchange=Transfer
Way out=Exit
etc, etc...
And of course, "Mind the gap!"
MCL FTL
0 58 0 00
Oh by the way, permanent way = British term for "maintenance of way".
That's nothing. Where the miles and chains have been sprayed onto the walls approaching Birmingham New St from the (South-)East, someone's come along and reduced every single one of them by one chain!
Well, permanent way staff would be maintenence of way staff, but the term "permanent way" itself simply means the track.
That works fine until you get routes which go to London at both ends. On the South London Line, the Up direction changes at Peckham Rye Junction. Loops and triangles obviously cause some degree of confusion. Finally, cross-country lines seem rather arbitrary. Both Coastway East and Coastway West run Up to Brighton, which has the utterly coincidental effect that through trains to London happen to be running Up.
Isn't this the intended effect of the LBSC's ' Down from London to Brighton, Hove ( and beyond ) and Lewes ( and beyond ) ?
1. Eurostar will stop using Waterloo when the Channel Tunnel Rail Link is completed to St. Pancras in 2007.
2. London's Mayor Livingstone says it would "make sense" for him to take control of trains serving London, whereas John Armitt, chief executive of Network Rail, described the move as a "recipe for chaos", adding another layer of bureaucracy.
I've always wondered if national systems are supposed to be all powerful, or if parochialism should be encouraged. The U.S. Commuter Rail experience shows that parochialism is winning at the moment -- at least in the U.S.
I would say that power struggles are politics as usual, regardless of the political system!
But I tend to take sides with Network Rail in this case, because they seem less likely to be pressured by local interests.
Which is actually a sensible thing to do.
2. London's Mayor Livingstone says it would "make sense" for him to take control of trains serving London, whereas John Armitt, chief executive of Network Rail, described the move as a "recipe for chaos", adding another layer of bureaucracy.
It would make sense and wouldn't add an extra layer of bureaucracy if both Network Rail and the TOCs were replaced by a single publicly owned and run body with responsibility for the railways in and around London. I would suggest the name "Network South-East" and nice bright blue, white and red livery.
So is this really my British Rail nostalgia weekend?
You know, the longer I study this subject, the more I realize that whether the entity is public or private really does not matter. What is important is to have solid management responses to problems. Network Southeast worked well when Chris Green was running it, because Green was a good guy and a capable manager. If you were to create a Network Southeast now and put someone less capable in charge, the place will become like an MBTA. Not that I think MBTA isn't well run, it's just not particularly responsive to customers and it's a big monolith where everything is politically driven. That was not the case at Network Southeast, because the BR board isolated political influences from the sectors. There is a real risk now if you re-created Network Southeast and give Ken Livingstone the control, it will become an MBTA type outfit.
Complete with (01) phone numbers, I see! Bit silly how it got split into 071 and 081, then got an extra 1 stuck in (0171/0181) and began to look like the dialling code for somewhere remote in Wales, then they decided to go back to the sensible old system, but this time using 020. It really should have just been left well alone, just like NSE.
On the subject of Network AwayBreaks - they're still going strong! I used one last Summer between Epsom and Chichester (the time I accidentally returned via an illegal route and the guard thankfully didn't notice).
You know, the longer I study this subject, the more I realize that whether the entity is public or private really does not matter.
You're right. The largest problem with the privatisation is that with the number of franchises, the chances of the pisspoor managers getting some job or other was relatively high. In reality, it's worked out that there are a couple of truly excellent franchises (Chiltern, possibly Anglia), a few averagely good ones (the FirstGroup ones), a few averagely bad ones (the National Express ones), and some appalling ones (Arriva Trains Northern, SWT, and formerly Connex). The chances are that with a single large operation, especially a public one, is that it will fall into the averagely good or averagely bad categories. You'll almost definitely avoid the worst management, but there's little chance that anything as good as Chiltern would happen.
Network Southeast worked well when Chris Green was running it, because Green was a good guy and a capable manager. If you were to create a Network Southeast now and put someone less capable in charge, the place will become like an MBTA.
Or worse still - a cross between Network Rail and the so-called Strategic Rail Authority.
That was not the case at Network Southeast, because the BR board isolated political influences from the sectors.
BR was certainly a good way of running a railway. It made some fairly colossal mistakes, but it's really rather easy to say that sort of thing with the benefit of hindsight. If there are three things I could go back and change, they would be:
1) the exclusion of trans-pennine routes from InterCity Cross Country: the needs of the Northern cities were largely ignored. One of the good things privatisation has done is to realise the importance of links between Liverpool, Manchester, Sheffield, Huddersfield, Leeds, Hull and Newcastle.
2) the closure of Birmingham Snow Hill and its lines to Wolverhampton and Dudley. Beeching obviously didn't understand the shape of the Black Country. Oldbury and Tipton are of very minor significance; West Bromwich, Dudley, Wednesbury, and Bilston aren't. The LNWR route to London, as well as serving the population centres less well, was longer and slower than the GWR's. It also resulted in rather a bottleneck at Rugby.
3) electrification to Weymouth. This is a key example of the Southern Region trying to be a Main Line railway as well as a Commuter one. The unified control should have sent all service from beyond Basingstoke, except maybe the slow trains to Southampton, via Reading to Paddington. That way, the SW commuter network would have been far better off.
There is a real risk now if you re-created Network Southeast and give Ken Livingstone the control, it will become an MBTA type outfit.
Well, there is still a British Railways Board. I think they'd quite like to get their railway back.
Well, they couldn’t leave the system as it was: it was running out of available numbers. The mistake there was not having the vision to devise a system with enough numbers the first time around, instead of three half-hearted attempts, which didn’t achieve a worthwhile goal anyway: getting a uniform numbering scheme across the whole country.
The bigger mistake was not taking the axe to Dr Beeching before he made his cuts!
Well, there is still a British Railways Board. I think they’d quite like to get their railway back.
What on earth do they do?
I think Dr Beeching did the country a service. He strengthened the core network, while abandoning the branches. If it were not for Dr Beeching, today we would have a bunch of half-assed mainline alignments instead of a few clearly high-speed mainlines supplemented by a commuter network. Essentially, Dr Beeching did for British Rail what deregulation did for the American railroad network.
Of course, there were some causalities, on both sides of the Atlantic: the Waverley Route, the Manchester-Sheffield via Wath electrification, the Great Central Route in Britain, and the Erie Road, the Pennsylvania to Chicago, etc. However the network as a whole was left stronger than before the cuts were made. The resources that were previously devoted to half-assed upkeeping of the rural routes, went to upgrading the mainlines and keeping them in tip-top shape.
What *was* a mistake, was Dr Beeching's insistence on selling off the property and not safeguarding the right of way, so that service could not be restored if the demand materialized at a later date.
Well, there is still a British Railways Board.... What on earth do they do?
Sell property. They still own a bunch of contaminated property that was not transferred to Railtrack, and they are responsible for cleaning up the spills and then selling it. Railtrack is also in the business of selling property, and for a while sold the best plots to finance the operations. Alas, that did not last long.
AEM7
Essentially, you're right, but it is very difficult to say that sort of thing when it is quite evident that he overdid it. People will remember him for the idiotic decisions like closing Birmingham Snow Hill rather than for the sensible ones like closing lines which were useless from the day they opened, like Oxford to Fairford and the Hull & Barnsley.
Great Central was exactly that: another Chiltern. If it weren't for the commuter demand, they might have abandoned the Huron line too, and many of the smaller lines into London.
AEM7
As I said, the main beneficiaries were a series of towns in the West Riding. It was a great alignment for expresses, as it didn't go anywhere much so local traffic was light. The other beneficiaries were people trying to go cross-country from the North, Yorkshire, and the East Midlands to the South Coast, the South West, and South Wales. In that regard, the closure of Banbury - Woodford - Rugby - Leicester - Nottingham - Sheffield - Penistone has directly contributed to the worst bottleneck in Britain: the Eastern approaches of Birmingham New St (in case anyone cares, second is the through part of Leeds City, third is the through part of Cardiff Central). You could make a fairly good case for closure of the Ashendon to Woodford section, as giving three large towns in the West Riding a nice through route to London isn't of the greatest importance (they could access King's Cross anyway by diverging at Weekday Cross Junction in Nottingham). However, the damage done to the provinces by the marginalisation of the main cross-country axis is practically unforgivable.
Nowadays with the huge bottlenecks at Leicester London Rd and at Bedford, the extra capacity of having a second main line to London would be so useful - plus the route from Leicester to Penistone (and its intermediate sections) was hugely superior to all its competitors.
I guess that’s more to the point. There used to be a coast route from Saltburn to Whitby. I have seen bits of tracks left over from it and would love to go on it, even if only over the viaduct over Saltburn beck. Unfortunately the ROW has completely disappeared (except for the Saltburn-Boulby part which ICI renovated and uses for potash trains).
The could have done what they did to my grandparents' phone number. It used to be (0639) xxxx. Then it became (0639) 5xxxx. That provided all the necessary capcity for numbers on the Neath exchange. They then decided to make it (0639) 63xxxx, which is really fairly dumb, seeing as all Neath numbers now begin 63 or 64.
With London, it should have been left with the nice simple (01) and an extra digit should have been stuck in the local number, like they finally did when it became (020).
The good thing about the new system is that you know 07 is a mobile, 08 is some random rate, and 09 costs a bomb. The only problem is that people got so used to 0345 meaning local rate, that when it became 08457, it immediately had associations of old codes like 0898 and 0891 which became the 09 codes.
The bigger mistake was not taking the axe to Dr Beeching before he made his cuts!
I think some of them were necessary. I can't see any real justification for keeping lines like Newbury to Winchester.
"Well, there is still a British Railways Board. I think they’d quite like to get their railway back."
What on earth do they do?
They administer various properties which belong to BR but are not related to the operation of the railway.
The reason this was not done: depends on who you talk to, there was an attempt made to harmonize the length of telephone numbers around the UK, so instead of having different length numbers, the numbers were supposed to go to uniform xxx-xxx-xxxx instead of having some exchanges that have less capacity than others. For this to work, basically it meant that former 6-digit exchanges had to have a 4-digit area code. That's why 0639 63xxxx became 01639 63xxxx.
There was also an element of anti-competition stuck in there. Mercury had built those boxes that were hard-wired to retransmit say 031 xxx-xxxx as 155 031 xxx-xxxx which would have routed it onto Mercury's network. Those boxes could not be reprogrammed. So essentially BT would steal some of Mercury's long distance customers after the number change.
AEM7
I can think of some exchanges (eg Redditch) which have both 5 and 6 digit numbers (or at least did when I last phoned anyone on them)!
the numbers were supposed to go to uniform xxx-xxx-xxxx instead of having some exchanges that have less capacity than others.
They probably should have been more radical and merged smaller exchanges (eg 0639 into 0792).
And still to this day, if anybody asks a number, likely enough you will only get the last four digits. After all, everbody at this end of the county is on the same exchange.
: ) Elias
I mean to ask you: what do you think of this new franchise, Grand Central Railway, that plans to run a Newcastle-(via Durham Coast)-Leeds-Sheffield-Birmingham service? Seems like they are just filling in the gaps left behind by "Operation Princess".
AEM7
The real problem is the fragmentation between Grand Central, First/Keolis TPE and Virgin Cross Country. It is the last way of getting an integrated cross-country network.
As far as trans-pennine routes go, with current infrastructure, something like this would be better than the fragmented system (apologies for having to link to ImageStation - I can't get onto my webspace from here in Birmingham).
I will deal with my criticisms of Grand Central's alignment first. Their section to Preston is clearly an afterthough (probably due to the limited capacity at Manchester Victoria amking it undesirable to have a train sitting there for ages waiting to reverse) and doesn't work very well as a through route. From any station East of Rochdale, it would be stupid to go via Manchester when there's a nice direct route over the top through Blackburn. Stops in outlying commuter-land are all well and good (I've done that with Stalybridge etc), but the stub from Manchester Victoria to Preston would basically be a commuter train using IC125s! A second and more significant criticism is that their trunk routes are totally wacked: Manchester to Leeds on the Lancs & Yorks was never a quick or a direct routing. As soon as the Leeds, Huddersfield & Manchester opened through Standedge, it really became a secondary route into Yorkshire, of most use for Halifax and Bradford rather than Leeds. I also understand that they intend to run many trains to Newcastle along the coast. Oh dear. For all the glamour of their operation, it's basically a string of Class 150/153/156 (or maybe even 140-144 if you're feeling less charitable) routings with hugely oversized stock. I'm afraid that opponents of the railways in the North will use Grand Central as a reason why "rail does not work North of Watford", without realising that this has more to do with its strange routing than any realistic principle.
First/Keolis have a much more sensible set of routings. (Their map's pretty good too - you can trace quite how dumb GdC's routings are on it!) Their stopping patterns are a bit arcane, thus limiting journey opportunities (eg Newcastle to Thirsk, Dewsbury to Liverpool, Stalybridge to Hull), but this is a more generic flaw in the way railways are run in this country than any fault of the usually excellent First/Keolis. They have identified the correct main trunk route across the Pennines (Manchester - Huddersfield - Leeds) and the fact that it needs 4tph of Fast trains (people are actually experiencing that these are getting seriously overcrowded - perhaps it should be upgraded to 6tph).
What they have got wrong is at the Western end to prioritise Manchester Airport over Liverpool (I've altered this to an easy to schedule 50/50 split, although I'd still expect the Liverpool trains to be busier). There are understandable capacity pressures on the viaduct between Piccadilly and Oxford Road. This could be helped by separating the 1tph to Barrow/Windermere back into the NW franchise (it's not even the top layer express route in that corridor - that's VXC) and run them into Victoria (maybe actually Exchange to deal with the capacity problem in Victoria station). It must be remebered that the main advantage of Pic over Vic is that it has onward connections to Euston; Barrow/Windermere passengers would have already changed at Preston. Then only 1 extra path between Pic and Oxford Rd would have to be found to give Liverpool through trains to Newcastle, Hull and Sheffield.
Where 4tph is slightly insufficient between Manchester and Leeds, 1tph is derisory between Manchester and Sheffield. This also has the effect that Sheffield to Hull isn't covered! Furthermore, although they've given Preston a token route, it runs contrary to the grain both of the local population pattern (Blackpool - Preston - Blackburn) as well as that of a trans-Pennine service. I have displayed with my brown routing what would be a far more useful service for these people. This has also given me the opportunity to give Hull 2tph from both Manchester and Leeds, although I admit that to achieve the wonderfully balanced service elsewhere, the train via Sheffield would have to leave Manchester only 10 minutes after the one via Leeds:
x+00 Liverpool - Leeds - Newcastle
x+10 Airport - Leeds - Scarborough
x+20 Liverpool - Sheffield - Cleethorpes
x+30 Airport - Leeds - Middlesborough
x+40 Liverpool - Leeds - Hull
x+50 Airport - Sheffield - Hull
One possible solution would be to run the Manchester - Sheffield - Hull service separately from the general pattern and fill the second Manchester - Sheffield path with a well needed through train to the East Midlands or East Anglia. Anyway, that's a slightly long-winded detail of what I was up to with my map!
I actually think the fragmentation is a good thing. It will bring about real competition between train operators. In some cases like in commuter markets that makes no sense, but in the case of Transpennine services where track capacity is a-plenty, routing is a-plenty, and not only is there price competition and there is also differences in quality, at a very marco level it seems to be working the way it is -- with three operators and a bunch of different routes.
I will deal with my criticisms of Grand Central's alignment first. Their section to Preston is clearly an afterthough (probably due to the limited capacity at Manchester Victoria amking it undesirable to have a train sitting there for ages waiting to reverse) and doesn't work very well as a through route.
I disagree. It makes sense to send trains that will otherwise be sitting out to some suburban location so they can reverse there. That has the added benefit of giving some riders a one-seat ride, especially people on the North side of Manchester could drive in and get direct service to Yorkshire, instead of changing 2-3 times. Now that we have stuff like Wi-Fi and cell phones, it actually makes sense to take a slower train that has better amenities and without having to change. It means you could work on the train for longer.
Stops in outlying commuter-land are all well and good (I've done that with Stalybridge etc), but the stub from Manchester Victoria to Preston would basically be a commuter train using IC125s!
Yes, it will carry some local passengers, depending on the time of day, but if the IC125 set would otherwise be sitting at Manchester Victoria, why not? And I think you will get more through passengers than you expect, esp. people with kids that don't like to change trains, and business people who like uninterrupted work or quiet time.
A second and more significant criticism is that their trunk routes are totally wacked: Manchester to Leeds on the Lancs & Yorks was never a quick or a direct routing. As soon as the Leeds, Huddersfield & Manchester opened through Standedge, it really became a secondary route into Yorkshire, of most use for Halifax and Bradford rather than Leeds.
You're forgetting something here. I point you to this speech by Henry Posner III (invited to LSE by Adrian Shooter, ex-Midland Mainline manager). IAIS runs a very successful operation in the U.S. based on intermediate point demands. Again, back in the days of Regional Railways, the Express network is also based on intermediate demands. There is no way that the Stansted-Cambridge-Ely-March-Peterborough-Sheffield-Manchester-Liverpool Lime St. routing could compete with Stansted-London-Manchester on Intercity expresses, but for many people (i.e. Cambridge-Peterborough, Peterborough-Sheffield, Sheffield-Manchester) this kind of Regional Railways routing makes sense. That's why Grand Central exist. It's a Regional Railways company that is seeking to tap local demands. And they are there. More than Intercity types expect. Especially if you live in Lancashire and could drive to either one of two routings, and Grand Central offers better amenities than a neighbouring Transpennine mainline, people will drive to it.
AEM7
It's all very well operating services to fulfil intermediate demand, but they should then use Regional Railways 153s and 156s instead of scarce IC125 sets. Something like their alignment from Wakefield to Preston (and maybe extending to Windermere/Barrow and sorting that problem) would be a very nice Regional Railways secondary DMU routing.
IC125's have rather large problems. They are extremely expensive to run and the leasing costs are astronomical. Only the Irish version ever had power doors (d'oh), so you need extra platform staff at stations to make sure all the doors are closed, which also increases dwell time. They also have the quite significant problem of being too long for many platforms (eg Brighouse), stopping at which, although it already happens a lot at places like Mkt Harboro', is not a practice the SRA seeks to encourage.
Here is an illustration of the length problem:
5 car IC125 (2x Class 43, 3x TSO, 1x RUB, 1x FO) total length 491'10" total seats (usual) 287
Class 43 length 58'5"
TSO length 75', seats 72-80 (usually 74)
RUB length 75', seats 17
FO length 75', seats 48
4 car 168/0 total length 310' total seats 276
DMSL(A) length 77'6" seats 60
MSL length 77'6" seats 73
MS length 77'6" seats 77
DMSL(B) length 77'6" seats 66
IC125 extra length 181'10" (49%)
IC125 extra seats 11 (4%) (of similar lengths: 2x 2-car 170 seats 268 (19 less than IC125 (7%) - it's amusing that despite the more cramped seating layout, the dumb front end has actually cut the capacity!), 2x 2-car 158 seats 284 (3 less than IC125 (1%)))
I agree that 170s are no good. It's amazing how Bombardier could take over AdTranz's beautiful 168/0 design with 4 spacious carriages and turn it into a cramped ugly 2 car effort with unnecessary sloping front ends that push the driving position back. Until the Midland Railway Works go back to building 168/0s, the 158 will remain the best stock up North.
I agree that 170s are no good
I agree too. But in my experience, anything operated by Central Trains will never be any good. They stink.
the 158 will remain the best stock up North
Again I must disagree. The 158s are in dire condition internally - this being a particular problem on Central (surpise, surprise), First NW and the TPEx units. They also suffer from too much engine noise, a problem with all DMUs. The 175s are far, far superior to any 158.
You are totally right, Tim. I've somehow managed to get my geography of various countries we once owned utterly confused.
I agree too. But in my experience, anything operated by Central Trains will never be any good. They stink.
Aside from Central Trains being particularly bad, the 170s are a poor design.
Again I must disagree. The 158s are in dire condition internally - this being a particular problem on Central (surpise, surprise), First NW and the TPEx units. They also suffer from too much engine noise, a problem with all DMUs. The 175s are far, far superior to any 158.
The 158s may be looking rather worn, but they are far more ergonomically laid out than the 170s (with the exception that the 170s have a marginally better door placement). They are the most pleasant stock Central Trains have, even though they haven't a clue how to clean them. The 175 largely follows the mistakes made when the design was changed from 168 to 170.
As far as noise goes, I quite like the roar of a 168 pulling out of Birmingham Snow Hill and into the tunnel.
You got that last bit right. Last time I used a CT 158 was for a quick trip from Stafford to Crewe. The interior was disgusting (and I mean disgusting). It was so bad I did my best not to touch any part of the train. If this was the case on the SE commuter lines, there would be an outcry in 'The Times', the 'Daily Telegraph' et al!
Expensive to run? Yes, 7 vehicles and 14 trucks (for a HST5 set) versus 4 vehicles and 8 trucks (for a 170 set).
Expensive to lease? Yes. Why? Because they are in demand. The operators love them, and passengers love them. If they really were that crap, the leasing costs would be low.
Here is an illustration of the length problem:
Would you rather sit in a HST5 set, with access to buffet, or would you rather sit in a 170 4-car set, with trolley dolly? Now, don't answer that question. Consider if you were travelling from Sheffield to London, would you rather sit in a 4-car 170, or a HST5 set. If you had a choice, same departure times, a choice of 170's (or upgrade to HST5 for a 20% mark up), which train would you choose? Now, why do you think train operators are running after HST5's and leaving the 170's well alone? The only operators running 170's are the ones that are contractually obliged to do so. None of the open access operators are using them, except Hull Trains, and even they are chasing after HST5's. Why?
Length is a minor problem. It's kind of like why the airlines in Asia are still running Boeing 747s. Much more efficient to run 767's, now that they are allowed to cross the Pacific Ocean.
AEM7
IC125's have buffet car chicks, too :-P They are just not as mobile as the trolley dollys, but they have more kitchen equipment at their disposal :-P
Also, you do realize that the reason National Express is considered "averagely bad" is not because they are incompetent managers. It is because they are good managers, focused on a different thing to what the public wants. National Express is really pretty good at running a cost-cut railroad, staying out of political trouble, and basically piss everyone off except the funding bodies. In essence, cutting services in a way that no one noticed except the riders.
The reason Arriva is bad is because it's chronically short of money, the Great North being economically depressed ANYWAY (fuck, who am I to talk, I lived in Scotland most of my life); SWT wasn't all bad, my impression was that they did pretty well at least until the money ran out; Connex... well, I'll stay quiet on that one.
AEM7
I would say they were extremely bad managers. They saw they had increased demand for the already packed out Leicester - Birmingham services after the Bull Ring reopened, so instead of lengthening trains, they took the coward's option and did what they could to discourage ridership. They simply don't understand what public service is. They just want to run things in the way they've predetermined and to hell with it if people actually would rather go to Birmingham than on the slow train to London.
The reason Arriva is bad is because it's chronically short of money
So are Virgin west Coast, but they go and get a subsidy of £12.52 per passenger, so it's all okay. The stupidest thing Arriva did was sacking a load of drivers then realising they didn't have enough people to drive the trains. IIRC, SWT did that too.
SWT wasn't all bad, my impression was that they did pretty well at least until the money ran out
SWT have a worse punctuality record than either ex-Connex franchise. They may have a more evenly spread disaster of a railway than Connex's huge messed up rush hours, but they are still appalling.
Disclousure: During 1999-2000 I worked for an NEG company. I left to pursue other avenues because of a differences in philosophy. But I still think they are good managers GIVEN their philosophy.
They saw they had increased demand for the already packed out Leicester - Birmingham services after the Bull Ring reopened, so instead of lengthening trains, they took the coward's option and did what they could to discourage ridership.
Remember, they are operators for a service that does not generate full cost recovery. It would make no sense to go spot hire a bunch of stock just to lengthen trains. Discouraging ridership is cheaper.
They simply don't understand what public service is.
NEG understands EXTREMELY WELL what shareholder value is. They have no reason to understand what public service is, not unless they are paid to understand. Given the kind of price that the SRA has been willing to pay for contracts, I don't fault these people for putting shareholder value before public service.
They just want to run things in the way they've predetermined and to hell with it if people actually would rather go to Birmingham than on the slow train to London.
They want to run things in a way that maximizes shareholder value, knowing that SRA doesn't have the guts to kick them out of their franchises, because they own about 50% of all of ex-British Rail, and kicking them out would mean de-facto renationalization, something totally politically unpalatable.
I didn't think I'd EVER say this, but:
Clare Short was right.
knowing that SRA doesn't have the guts to kick them out of their franchises, because they own about 50% of all of ex-British Rail, and kicking them out would mean de-facto renationalization, something totally politically unpalatable.
Typical SRA stupidity. They should stop being weak weedlings who can be walked over by bus companies and start taking the action they're entitled to take. Bus companies should have been banned from owning franchises in the first place (okay, we'd lose First that way, but it would get rid of the far greater evils of NX and Stagecoach). De facto nationalisation would be a very good idea. This privatisation is a sham. It's currently taking quadruple the amount of taxpayers' money that BR used to take. Taxpayers should therefore have quadruple the say.
So, Mr government... you have (roughly) UKP 7 billion tied up in brand new rolling assets that are running around on routes which may or may not make money. You want to buy them? Sure, I'd love to sell... says Mr Porterbrook.
This privatisation is a sham. It's currently taking quadruple the amount of taxpayers' money that BR used to take.
Why do you think that is? Who paid for all the new advertizing that the private franchises put out? Who paid for the new paint on rolling stock? Who paid to get rid of the IC125's that are now becoming surplus? Who paid for the new uniforms, new buffets, new wireless connection, new laptop plug points in traincars? Who paid for the CCTVs at stations? You want to piss all that away so you can reduce taxpayer "subsidy" from UKP 2.5 billion per year to UKP 800 million per year?
BR was a well run shop, but it was short of cash. It needed cash that the government couldn't spare for business development. The UKP 2.5 billion in subsidy is the "interest" payment on that investment made by the privates. No interest, no capital.
The problem is indeed that the banks have an interest in the rolling stock. This could be sorted out in three ways: (1) the capitalist way which you just stated; (2) the mildly socialist way by passing a law banning banks from having financial interests in transport; or (3) full-blown socialism: nationalising the banks whilst you're at it. Mugabe style tin-pot-ism and its seizures wouldn't work in Britain, so that isn't a fourth option.
Why do you think that is? Who paid for all the new advertizing that the private franchises put out? Who paid for the new paint on rolling stock? Who paid to get rid of the IC125's that are now becoming surplus? Who paid for the new uniforms, new buffets, new wireless connection, new laptop plug points in traincars? Who paid for the CCTVs at stations?
Only two sources of income, according to the SRA: the taxpayer and the farepayer. It would be quite tempting to subtract the total monies each of these companies have made from the public from the compensation given in full renationalisation.
BR was a well run shop, but it was short of cash. It needed cash that the government couldn't spare for business development.
It could have done with £4,000,000,000 a year public investment, that's for sure.
The problem with the rolling stock market is that it is boom and bust. The 1994 stock acquisition freeze meant that when finally stock started to be ordered again in 1997, there was a severe shortage, so the rolling stock market boomed, so banks did well. Now watch what happens once the inevitable overbuild occurs, and all the backlog stock find their way into the network, and the franchise operators find they can't compete with Open Access operators running second-hand stock, and the lease is renegotiated. The Regional Railways market we've just been talking about is far too small to support two operators. Now you watch what happens to the leasing costs on Transpennine's 158's and 170's once Grand Central start running their HST5 on the Transpennine route.
Leasing costs have little to do with the condition of the stock. It's entirely demand driven.
As for banning banks... they're the only people with the money. Who else is going to pay for rolling stock? Transport is a volatile business, and if I had money, I wouldn't buy rolling stock with it knowing the leasing costs can go up and down completely outside my control. I'd buy an apartment in downtown London. Do you really expect an open access or franchise operator to be able to raise the capital to buy rolling stock, if the SRA can throw them out at their whim?
AEM7
Probably nothing as the line speed and sheer distance would make GdC's route completely impractical.
As for banning banks... they're the only people with the money. Who else is going to pay for rolling stock?
The state. Remember it was a mildly socialist solution.
Since when did the State have money to do anything? Do you think NHS would be in the state it is in if the State had money to pay for anything at all?
My understanding of 1970s British Economy was that the 60s were the boom years and the budget kept showing a surplus, so they reinvested the money in social programs resulting in, amongst other things, the Intercity 125. Then they ran out of money, so things began to fall apart. Do I have it right? Remember, this was before my time and I nearly failed GCSE history.
AEM7
The Coke bottle cases, the broken down McDonalds trailer (that trailer has been in that yard for who knows how long), Shea Stadium as a backdrop, and, of course, the train.
I doubted if they will ever clean the trestles
*"It's so strange, we were looking at real estate ads from Florida right before we heard Lee got stabbed," said her aunt, *
Lord NO! We don't need no more congestion, taxes, and prisons!
That would have been my standard procedure if my kids had gotten into trouble with the police, or are a suspect in a case. I would not allow interviews until I have secured legal counsel and representation. I'm that way too. Not that I have ever been arrested, so I never had to deal with it, yet.
Lord NO! We don't need no more congestion, taxes, and prisons!
I'm just going to ignore the prison comment. I'm from Boston, too.
AEM7
I had a chance to get down and dirty with the F train and the Culver El today. I had to go to Brooklyn today, and thought it would be a good excuse to get some photos along the Culver El when I was done with what I had to do.
So I invite you to take a look at my
Imagestation Album, or pages 3 and 4 of my
TransitGallery Album, depending on what format you like better.
(All of them are in the Imagestation album, the better ones are in Transitgallery because they show up better)
Here's a sample:
Elias
The el itself survived until the mid 1980's, when it was dismantled.
I remember as a kid, walking along the ROW collecting tie plates, bolts, and even a signal plate! =)
Thank You all and Long Live the 31st Astoria Elevated
Greg
All part of the MTA's grand scheme to connect LIRR trains to Grand Central. The ease of logistics will be astounding. Don't know if the same kind of progress is being made on the other side of the East River, though...
By the way, I remember riding trains from Boston into Grand Central at one time. When did this change?
I enjoy riding the Metro North into Grand Central. It is truly a remarkable Terminus and has much more elegance than the current Penn Station.
Greg
The MTA would never do that. The TA needs to have a northern terminal to turn the N/W right?
Imagien the stress on QB, the 7 and nearby buses. In other words, not worth it. Why did you develop such a thought anyway?
I agree with you on the Astoria Elevated. I like how its stanchions are along the street instead of on the sidewalk like the horrible Flushing Line...
As I see it, the Astoria EL is a remarkable structure. Built in 1917 (during WW I) and is still performing extremely well. Its such a pleasure to hear it running down 31st Ave. However you are right.
The columns run down the middle of the street, allowing for cars to only have 2 lanes. Cars are not permitted to travel outside the columns. There is parking along the street.
Glad to hear it still has a long future. If it was Boston, they would find some old RR Right-of-way and put it there, like the did the old Orange line. They made all these elaborate stations but nothing could really replace the old elevated.
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
Chuck Greene
Another R5
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
You can say whatever you want, but the R1 and the R8 both exist.
See here for the rest of today's photos:
They are R127's and according to the link above, usually act as work motors for Garbage trains. Don't know why the photo links are dead, though
Robert
They have axiflow fans in the ceilings.
Bill "Newkirk"
Who said the MTA didn't care about it's employees!?
Robert
-Chris
Not true, they have interior seating and even have tables bolted to the floor.
Peace,
ANDEE
Robet
I'm just curious, and if you aren't allowed to tell about this, that's understandable
avid
Cool, just like the LIRR!!!
Now think of the looks you would get from the regular passengers on something like that on a MOD trip!
Heh, I feel for the poor ladies whose husbands drag them onto the MOD trips.
And Chris ... believe it or not, some of the wimmens are bigger foamers than the GUYS! I married one. :)
-Chris
It's a stretch of unused (revenue) trackage. Perfect for testing trains.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
The test track runs from 4th Ave to Church ave.
When did this happen? Don't let Stephen Baumann hear about this...
Yeah, but I took that photo at Avenue I. I saw those signs at a few spots along the el, but forgot what other stations, but it was south of Church on the el.
1987:
1983:
1988:
Regards,
Jimmy
On a separate point, since this coincided with deferred maintenance, i can only imagine how much faster the cars would have rotted if this artificial paint had not been applied!
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
Also - wouldn't it be tough to drive a train with graffiti on the front window?
But like all things as they were, they did not last long, and cars #3092 and #3324 were somehow sent back later in passenger service, requiring them to be repainted again in the standard MTA silver/blue scheme. The two cars stayed that way until their retirement in 1988, while the other four R-10's eventually went to the scrap heap line down at 1st Avenue in Brooklyn.
However, in 1989, from a very reliable source told by me afterward, NYC Transit spent about $105,000 repainting 24 R-27's in the fox red/silver paint scheme. On the two cars observed by yours truly (#8091 and #8126) while on an uptown "C" train, they really looked pretty snappy and jazzy inside and out.
It turned out to be an real expense in vain, because NYC Transit had all ordered the 24 R-27's off from passenger service, claiming they were becoming really unreliable. Car #8145 (painted in fox red) is now the only R-27 unit in existence today, and it is currently next to the solid blue R-10 #3189 at Pitkin Yard in Brooklyn.
-William A. Padron
["Fulton-Euclid Av."]
Bill "Newkirk"
It would make sense, being the R-12/14 conductor positions were a bit precarious.
Bill "Newkirk"
On a somewhat recent MOD fantrip, using the arnines, we had a lunch stop in the Bronx. I overheard that some younger C/R's were shocked at the sight of the fantrip C/R between the "nines" banging on the door triggers. I guess they aren't used to "roughing" it, when that was commonplace many years ago !
Bill "Newkirk"
I always got claustrophobic when sentenced to "indoor duty" ... could you imagine how nuts I would have been in A division? "REAL conductors take it outside." Heh.
Very cool
-Chris
Disney monorail railfan window
--Mark
They're morons.
As usual, there was a train parked on one of the south layup tracks, between the station and the tube portals. Although it's not always the same exact train, something is usually parked there at that time of the day. Today, it was a set of newer Comets, with electronic signs. The sign in the front cab window was partially obscured by some paperwork; but I thought I could make it out. I wasn't sure at first, because -- no way it would be saying what I thought it was? That's impossible. I must've read it wrong.
My NJ Transit train kept crawling forward, towards the tubes. I was now on a sharp lookout for a working side window display on that mystery train. Yup, I wasn't seeing things. It was really flashing "Port Jervis Express", for all the world to see. Right outside of NY Penn. I couldn't see the west end of the train, and if a rumbling GP-40 diesel was there.
Either this was a harmless prank, or this train REALLY got lost.
I wished I had a camera with me.
Regards,
Jimmy
It doesn't look like a GP-40 to me, but it's not that much different, so somehow diesels do find their way into Penn.
You'd figure that they would program in a more likely default, such as "New York".
It will probably be there for the rest of the week.
Larry, RedbirdR33
They'll tell you at a counter at the entrance to the track that you need a reservation.
I was there last night. I went to the "Vanderbuilt Hall" and signed up (the guard told be the same thing, but I replyed that I was directed to sign in there). I went with my son & daughter-in-law & the baby. There was a cocktail thing going on, but it was all suits, so we just went back to the train.
The cars are modified containers sitting on flat cars. This is a Siemens/Exider rolling trade show. It's been going around the World this past two years. It started in Germany (Siemens home base), it's been to China, will do a number of US cities, then goes to Mexico.
Another SubTalker got hasteled when he tryed to take photos, I got two on my way out. The inside of the cars may bore most here (didn't see anything on mass transit). My son is in the beverage & snack industry, so he found some of the display of interest & talk with the guides. I also found their section on values, guages & sensor of interest (related it to QSC diesel tanks & CNG leak monitoring)
One car has a golf ball sorting, distributation exhibit. If you stick with it you get a golf ball at the end. At the very end of the train is a bar car, but without a suit all I got was water :-(
Use proper SubTalk terminology. The word is "chix."
What were the circumstances of the incident?
Regards,
Jimmy
a. Somebody posted links to a page on trolls. That page defined trolls as people who attack people over the internet, with no regard for the real person that they are attacking or insulting. When defjef first came to this board, he did not do this. Granted, his posts were sheer garbage and lies, but he wasn't 'trolling'. Then, people on this board, who post on Rider Diaries screamed TROLL, TROLL. This was the wrong approach. What he did on this board was not trolling.
b. DefJef makes one post a day, weekdays (with at least one exception). ONE POST, by ONE PERSON is not enough to create a big problem. What does create the problem are the hordes of people who throw in their 2 cents on the matter. There's usually at least 3 posts that essentially say the same thing: TROLL ALERT!. Then, a thread will veer off onto why we can't have DefJef here. All this time, DefJef still hasn't responded to a single post.
c. People screaming "DO NOT RESPOND TO DEF JEF!" are the ones doing the responding a lot of the time!
Way I see it, there are 2 solutions:
1. Deal with it. Even if DefJef personally attacks you, what does it matter? Let it go.
2. Ignore it. Don't killfile DefJef. Look at the title of his thread for the day, and ignore all posts with that title.
This is really very simple. You guys are making this worse than it need be.
LOL Why Harry, I thought you were a nice guy? Hey did you ever see that chick that interviewed you again? You guys were hitting it off, although I wasn't sure you were recipricating :-P
AEM7
CG
Check it out:
Starting from Norwood-205th St, Bronx, you take the
to
7th Av-53rd St, Manhattan
then
to
W 4th St, Manhattan
then
to
Delancey St-Essex St, Manhattan
then
to
Jamaica Center, Queens
then
to
Kew Gardens-Union Turnpike, Queens
then
to wherever you want to go from there.
And there you have it.
D-->E-->F---->J-->E-->F---->--->----->>>
I know that this looks really stupid, but I just thought you'd be interested.
-Chris
-Chris
What's wrong with him? Maybe he has a sense of humor, knows that this is just an internet forum, and doesn't take anything in it seriously.
-Chris
>If Defjef posts something sensible and on topic, then just read and respond appropriately, such as this post.
However,
>If Defjef posts something inappropriate such as "trolling" or flamage then DON'T RESPOND, such as this one.
There should be NO he's a troll crap, or he should leave us crap or especially, Help us Dave! Help us! CRAP. NO it gets us nowhere. If Defjef wants to contribute something reasonable and nice, there is no reason to get mad, but when he posts some kind of stupid 'attack' on someone, then IGNORE. Why do you think that this board has a kill file feature? If you choose not to kill file, than just ignore! We should not let such a stupid and immature thing ruin a great online transit community. Thank you.
-Chris
That's a lotta crap!
Maybe we should all let this die out and get back on topic.
Bill "Newkirk"
Peace,
ANDEE
If folks WANT it to stop, then it's time to allow the offenders to turn into the infamous "BURT" on the old comedy show, "SOAP" ... "woo-woo-woo, I'm INVISIBLE" ...
(4) WoodlawnBowlingGreen A.K.A. B Bonnici
Can you name the car model AND line?
No one likes Nader.
Or it could be one of the new systems, like Newark which has the Kinki low floor. But it doesn't really look like a Kinki.
AEM7
AEM7
We have a winner!
Either way, I'm through college now, so no more classes, no more books, and no more professors' dirty looks for me for a LONG time.
And to put this back on topic, the AP exam is one thing I would love to see run over by a speeding Red Line train.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
If it makes the subject more interesting, keep asking yourself, "what sort of train would these people have been riding?" For example, what sort of transit would Teddy Roosevelt have seen over his head when he was mayor of New York City? You get the idea.
Mark
At any rate the MTA wants as much traffic as possible into Union Station.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Or is could just be somebody with "English as a Third Language".
Elias
There are two process used for making the signs depending on the final product. Both involve using a large format plotter / printer. One version involves using a vinyl letter cutter / plotter like the lettering used on commercial vehicles. The other version involves using a large format plotter / printer to make full size artwork for making silk screens. The lettering is silk screened on to the panel then the panel is baked in an oven to keep the lettering from being vandalized.
I do CAD work on the side. I have an old but still useful pen plotter that can also be setup as a vinyl letter cutter. I can plot drawings as large as 24" (91.44 cm) by 72" (182.88 cm) There are unit on the market that can plot or print on bigger media.
John
The process was also used for the “saturation adverts” that appeared every once in a while in the old lower-level WTC PATH lobby, where the walls, pillars and floors had adverts for a single product/service.
The printers used for these sheets are variations on ink-jets with fade-resistant pigment-based ink and the rolls can be as wide as 8'.
I have seen small signs made using this method, but the TA seems to use stick-on only for “temporary” signs. Permanent signs are silk-screened onto black enamel then baked.
What’s interesting about this example is the obvious question of “How many pairs of eyes looked at this sign before it was installed and just didn’t pay attention?”
We've got misspelled official signs posted in Baltimore, both private and transit.
It's endemic in all governmental authorities. The funniest one I saw was one the City of Birmingham in the UK put up, "Sutton Coldfield Grammer School".
#3 West End Jeff
Peace,
ANDEE
Ducks to avoid being pelted at the poor quality of his yolk…
Whats a henway?
: ) ROFLMAO !!!
Only in good old New York.
Thanks for a great laugh.
parl see PARLE.
parle3 obs. f. PARREL.
parrel, parral, n. A band of rope, chain, or iron collar by which the middle of a yard is fastened to a mast.
By comparison to words such as Subway, Parlways must be a method of transit which runs on ropes attatched to masts. Examples include the Roosevelt Island Parlway.
Now I don't know whether it's Bay, AR, Bay, GA, or Bay, MO, that has a parlway, but I sure want to know so I can get out there and ride it! Is it a year round operation or just seasonal? Is metrocard good on it?
Whatever language you learn learn it right for the sake of all of us,
B Bonnici
Things for minor thought : >.< :0 :( :) :P .) (P.S. how do I change my name from B Bonnici to
(4)WoodlawnBowlingGreen)
-Chris
Sign shop needs spellcheck !!
Bill "Newkirk"
How is the Circle Line project coming along? I know work was going on to restore the Paulina connector. Has anything else happened? Is the Circle Line project even a definite thing, or just a proposal at this time?
What other system expansions have been proposed, and what is the status of these proposals? I've read on the website Chicago L.org about a number of them, like the O'Hare-Midway connector, an O'Hare-Skokie line, and some lines on a map suggesting a route to the area between Dan Ryan Red Line and the lake front. Any status news?
What ever became of the old North Avenue branch of what is now the Blue Line? I saw on a 1944 map a branch leaving the main line around the Damen station and following North Ave to a terminal at Lawndale. It is gone on maps later than 1955.
Does anyone think that light rail or trams could compliment the L system in any way? I can think of a few roles for it, like maybe crosstown service along Western Avenue where there is median space for it along at least part of the route. I also think a Lakefront tram might be nice, providing better service between downtown and the attractions at Hyde Park like the Museum of Science and Industry, as well as McCormick place. Are these good places for light rail, or would heavy L or subway lines be better?
Thanks in advance,
Mark
I think you're talking about the Humboldt Park branch. It was mostly torn down in the early 1950's (about 1953?), but a stub was left in place with the idea that CA&E cars routed through the subway would use the stub as midday storage. IIRC, the stub was finally torn down in about 1959 or 1960.
Does anyone think that light rail or trams could compliment the L system in any way? ...I also think a Lakefront tram might be nice, providing better service between downtown and the attractions at Hyde Park like the Museum of Science and Industry, as well as McCormick place.
Well the area from downtown south along the lakefront is already served by the Illinois Central (now Metra) electrification. That line has a stop only 3-4 blocks away from the Museum of Science & Industry and has a stop directly at McCormick Place, so I think that area is served relatively well.
Frank Hicks
Mark
That was the Humboldt Park Branch of the Metropolitan Division. It was cut back to a shuttle between Damen and Lawndale when the Milwaukee Avenue Subway opened on February 25, 1951, and abandoned altogether on May 4, 1952.
Coincidentally, the Humboldt Park Branch is featured in the current (Spring 2004) issue of /First and Fastest/, the Shore Line Interurban Historical Society's terrific quarterly on Chicago-area traction subjects.
http://www.shore-line.org/FirstAndFastest/next.html
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
The Paulina Connector is being rehabbed with funds secured as part of the Douglas Branch reconstruction. As of yet, no new stations are being added although the Circle Line plans proscribe new ones at Van Buren and Madison, so they may yet be added at some point.
Even the most aggressive Circle Line plans don't call for any other work to have begun yet. If and when the Paulina Connector reenters revenue service, the next step would be to construct an elevated connection between the bend in the Douglas Branch and the Orange Line, but no funding and no public plans have been announced for that yet. The final step would be a subway and/or elevated section between the North/Clyborn stop of the Red Line and the Paulina connector. This has definitely not even entered serious planning stages as far as I know.
2) Other proposals.
It depends on what you mean by "proposed." All sorts of serious and fanciful system additions have been suggested both by the CTA and by citizens and public officials over the years. Currently being studied for serious consideration are three proposals. First, extending the Yellow Line further north and adding stations along its current route. Second, extending the Red Line further south by a couple miles. And third, extending the Blue Line under and past O'Hare into Schaumburg as part of the O'Hare expansion. Other ideas being bantered about are extending the Orange Line to it originally planned terminal at Ford City, south of Midway and extending the Congress branch of the Blue Line further west (or should I say "re-extending"). Also in the Central Area Plan for the City is the idea of creating a Subway Loop by connecting the Blue Line subway branches under Clinton Street along Union Station and Northwestern Station. The most likely "other plans" to happen are some infill stations, particularly on the Green Line in the West Loop and maybe along either the Red Line or the Brown Line near Division, all of which to serve a fast-growing residential population in those areas.
Other proposals that citizens and groups have talked about, some of (but not all) which the CTA has even acknowledged as reasonable ideas. Converting the Metra Electric to CTA-run frequent service. Creating a "Mid-City Transitway" just east of Cicero Ave along freight rail ROW to connect the O'Hare branch of the Blue Line to Midway (and then running east to the Red Line at about 79th Street). Connecting the Yellow Line to the Blue Line. Connecting the Brown Line to the Blue Line. Re-extending the Green Line to Jackson Park. Creating a subway under Monroe Street that goes to Streeterville (the area NE of the Loop).
And of course far more imaginative and expensive ideas like a subway up Broadway, a rapid transit line along the North Metra branch from the section of the Brown Line that runs along Ravenswood, and the restabilishment of the Humbolt Park branch. Or reestablishment of the Kenwood Branch of what is now the Green Line along the still-existant earthen embankments. None of these ideas appear to ever be candidates for consideration as far as I know.
3) North Avenue branch
I think others have answered this to the point I have nothing further to add.
4) Light Rail
I agree about Light Rail. I have a few "pet ideas" regarding it, mostly as streetcars like the Portland Streetcars (not MAX) or the New Orleans ones. I agree about Western, but also think that many of the Park District's Boulevard system could benefit from them. This would include parts of Western, Garfield/55th to Hyde Park, Kedzie, Logan and maybe Diversey to connect Humbolt Park/Logan Square to the retail/commercial areas near Western and Elston and the Blue Line. Additionally, I think Roosevelt would be a good place for streetcars, as well as Kingsbury and Carrol Streets downtown. But no official group or agency has talked about streetcars in quite some time.
Frank Hicks mentioned Metra service to the Museum of Science and Industry, but I must say I disagree with his pronouncement that it is "well serviced." Metra Electric service is a JOKE for anyone but office commuters. Mike Payne is a South Side resident who is fighting to get the CTA to take over the Metra Electric route and run it like a rapid transit line with frequent (15-minute or shorter headways) service so that it could actually be a useful service to get to the South Shore and SE Side. Until and unless that happens, only express busses provide anything close to useful service to the south lakefront.
Thanks again,
Mark
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FejFed backwards is DefJef
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=680220
He makes ONE post a day. he doesn't attack anyone. And he doesn't make his life's career to find a poster he doesn't like and then spread shit around about the situation.
Thank you very much.
Personally, I don't see the problem. The "don't reply posts" seem to be more off topic and worse than the original posts to begin with. No one is going to tell me not to reply to someone.
While DefJef's posts are a bit skewed, extreme, and a bit overdone, they ARE on topic about the subway, or at least in his own little world. Some have been actually humorous. I'm not going to lie and say I didn't get a smirk on my face when he said something to the effect of "take that a$$ into the conductor's booth...", as stupid as the whole post was.
I have not responded to the posts I thought were dumb, (just like I wouldn't respond to a post or topic I have no interest in that anyone wrote), but where I found a comment to reply of value, I responded. Anyone that doesn't like his posting style (and not that I do), can just ignore the posts. Responding with "troll" or "don't respond" is just like throwing wood on a fire, and just as bad, if not worse as the original nonsense post.
It's harmless. Any of the "wars" that started because of the posts were NOT caused by DefJef, but someone attacking him either directly or indirectly. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not defending him, I'm just writing how I see it, and I certainly haven't read most of the posts and responses to come to this conclusion, I have better things to do. Personally, it's not one of life's pressing issues. This is an internet forum that some just take to seriously. It's supposed to be fun, not give high blood pressure. And if it gives someone high blood pressure, they are taking it too seriously.
He was talking some trash about Newkirk today. If that's not personnal, I don't know what is.
-Chris
Get ready to ride the Eye Train.
Transportation officials are considering putting surveillance cameras in buses and subways, the Daily News has learned.
The Metropolitan Transportation Authority, which has been boosting security since the terror attacks, has been in discussions with a French-based company that is outfitting Paris-area buses with surveillance equipment, sources said.
"It's a matter of money, and we will have to find the money somewhere," said one transit source, who added that the program would start on buses and eventually expand to subways. "There are more than enough reasons to put them on there now."
Transit officials said the primary purpose of the cameras would be to deter crime and catch robbers and other thugs - but that they could be useful in the battle to prevent terror.
"We don't discuss security, but obviously we will do whatever is humanly possible to ensure the safety of our customers and employees," said MTA spokesman Tom Kelly.
Officials with France-based Thales, a security and technology firm, said they have had discussions with the MTA about surveillance cameras but declined to offer specifics.
Thales is rigging buses in Paris suburbs with digital cameras that capture images on computer hard drives that can be downloaded later for review. Global Positioning Systems, utilizing satellites, can pinpoint a bus' location in case of emergency, a company official said.
"This is for the general security for the drivers and the passengers," said Philippe Constant, a Thales marketing and business development manager.
Transport Workers Union Local 100 officials said that, after a recent attack on a Bronx bus driver, transit brass told them cameras may be installed in buses.
Local Secretary-Treasurer Ed Watt said the union would support any measure that could better protect drivers. But it has concerns about surveillance being used as a means to discipline union members unfairly.
Can't have cake and eat it too. As long as the drivers are not doing something they shouldn't be, then they'll be alright.
Still. It's better than nothing.
But the judge and jury will be impressed with the evidence as they give the dude time off for good behavior.
Now catching employees chewing gum... yeah, it can do that too.
You'll get time off, but it won't be for good behavior.
Elias
Ben F. Schumin :-)
are there cameras on those r-142's and 143's?
The book/exhibit "America on the Move explores the role of transportation in American history. Visit communities wrestling with the changes that new transportation networks brought. See cities change, suburbs expand, and farms and factories become part of regional, national, and international economies. Meet people as they travel for work and pleasure, and as they move to new homes."
If you go to the Smithsonians site: http://americanhistory.si.edu/onthemove/exhibition/ you will find (aside from a few minor mentions) nothing about the contribution of the railroads/subways of the NYC/East coast. Yet they have plenty about Chicago and its system.
Talk about a slap in the face.
Mark
But I think the point of the exhibit was to take a look at how people in many different parts of the country got around. Given that goal, Chicago is just as worth looking at as New York is. Furthermore, since one segment was already about New York, my guess is that they chose Chicago in order to provide a geographically broader look at the nation as a whole.
Mark
Can't have cake and eat it too. As long as the drivers are not doing something they shouldn't be, then they'll be alright.
Still. It's better than nothing.
But the judge and jury will be impressed with the evidence as they give the dude time off for good behavior.
Now catching employees chewing gum... yeah, it can do that too.
You'll get time off, but it won't be for good behavior.
Elias
Ben F. Schumin :-)
CHICAGO – Scheduled track improvements on the Union Pacific Railroad west of Denver will require Amtrak to use an alternate route for the California Zephyr between Denver and Salt Lake City during four, eight-day periods this summer. The detour will follow the historic transcontinental railroad route through Wyoming and Utah on freight rail tracks that passenger trains have not traversed since 1997.
From June 8-15, June 23-30, July 8-15 and July 23-30, Amtrak will be unable to use the Union Pacific route through the Moffat Tunnel west of Denver. On those days, the California Zephyr will detour between Denver and Salt Lake City via a northern route through Wyoming, making no intermediate station stops. On the days the train detours, Amtrak will provide alternate motorcoach transportation between Denver and Glenwood Springs and Grand Junction, Colo., only.
Passengers traveling between Chicago and Denver or between Salt Lake City and the San Francisco Bay Area (Emeryville) will be unaffected.
Service to Fraser-Winter Park, Colo.; Granby, Colo.; Green River, Utah; Helper, Utah and Provo, Utah, will be suspended on the days of the train’s detour. Passengers already ticketed to those stations are being notified of the service suspensions.
Amtrak will also notify all passengers ticketed between Denver and Salt Lake City during the 32 days of the detour and/or the alternate transportation from Denver to and from Glenwood Springs and Grand Junction. Passengers will be offered travel on alternate days or refunds.
The detour route will follow a portion of the original transcontinental Union Pacific route that was completed in 1869. While the scenery is less mountainous than the California Zephyr’s regular routing, it offers broad vistas of the high plains and an opportunity to see pronghorn antelope and other wildlife.
Amtrak regrets the service disruption and has notified the affected communities. However, the Union Pacific Railroad has said the improvements are needed to maintain safe and timely operation of trains through the Moffat Tunnel route.
The Manny B service is awesome! The trains don't interfere with each other as much as they used to, and I could cross the bridge in about 5 minutes even during rush. I remember before it would usually take 7-10 minutes during rush just to cross the bridge.
The B and Q are surprisingly balanced in loads. I was expecting the B to be overcrowded and the Q to be underused. They're about even. If anything else I think the Q has slightly more passengers on it than the B during rush.
The Broadway Express is now pretty quick during rush. I've seen how quick it could be when using the Q over the weekend before the MB changes, but now I see this speed during rush.
6th Avenue Express is a speed demon. However, surprisingly enough it's seems to be about a minute or two slower than the B'way Express between midtown and DeKalb. I can't figure out why.
Weekend service is solid. I noticed riding late night on the weekend that the D and Q were "racing" each other over the bridge to Bklyn (which was crazy, because I don't recall seeing trains race over the bridge, especially at 2 in the morning). There seemed to be a good number of riders on the D which also surprised me. They both got over the bridge at about the same, but the dispatcher put the D in front of the Q at DeKalb. If this is the normal service pattern for nights than I'd be thrilled because I can go to Yankee games, take the D to DeKalb and transfer for the Q, which would be RIGHT behind the D. If anyone remembers, my biggest complaint against the plan was that the MTA took direct access to Yankee Stadium from Brighton riders.
The only weak part of the plan I've seen is that the R seems to be pretty crowded during rush in Bklyn. I said this would happen. I didn't see any M trains so I can't say anything about the M. Other than that the plan seems to be working very well.
Stops on Broadway Express between DeKalb and 34th Street:
Canal Street
14th Street
Total: 2
Stops on 6th Avenue Express between DeKalb and 34th Street:
Grand Street
Broadway-Lafayette
West 4th Street
Total: 3
It must be the extra stop.
For bway exp, it's pretty much a straight path after the curve from Canal.
For 6 Av, it has to zigzag crosstown thru Grand St, B'way Lafayette and West 4 before finally making that big "dash" to 34 St.
So why doesn't 11th Street go through?
I find the B to seem faster than the Q, but I'm not timing it.
From the exit of the bridge itself, the bway express is faster.
It may not feel like it, but in terms of the overall time spent going towards Herald Sq, the bway express is faster, even though it doesn't feel like it.
AEM7
I ride these trains, and there are usually seats. There are only two cases in which the trains are crowded. Monday morning when eveyone heads to the Brooklyn courts at the same time for Jury Duty. And coming home when people have to get off the W and squeeze on the next R. Another reason why the W to Brooklyn is a better choice than the M. No standees on the M, and plenty of seats.
The other projects are OK given the current service pattern.
--Mark
it was a slow D then, the north side timers are faster.
David
Maybe the length of the route has something to do with it.
I told you so!
I could see that even out here in NORTH DAKOTA!
: ) Elias
Here in Kansas City we have nothing. However, it was announced this AM that a Kansas City architecture firm won the competition to design the Jets' proposed stadium (like that does me any good at all).
It'll only take you 5 minutes to get to Oz...and no more dual-fares with the Munchkins.
I'll get you, my pretty! Ha ha ha ha...
:D
Consider this: KC Transit's network is mostly in Missouri, with a decent coverage of downtown Kansas City, Kansas and a couple of bus lines serving the University of Kansas.
Yet the State of Missouri's total contribution to KCATA's $40 million annual budget is: $800,000. Yes, that's right, eight hundred thousand dollars total.
I haven't sen what the route is to be yet, but they are looking at 30 minute headways, perhaps moving to 15 minutes in the future.
Elias
The only part of the plan that I found reprehensible from the beginning and still believe is reprehensible is the lack of 6th Avenue service for Brighton riders for a three hour period nights and weekends. The above will not work for a Yankee game ending at 9:45 as you would have to wait for about an hour and a half to take a D train stopping at DeKalb and certainly not during weekends.
With that one minor correction (the D should stop at DeKalb whenever the B is not running), I would agree it is a good plan. But screwing Brighton riders out of 6th Avenue service, no matter how people try to justify it, just stinks.
Not only that, but they screw Brighton riders out of Lexington Avenue service. We all know Lexington is more popular. The whole thing just stinks.
The point has been made that many students going to NYU, the village on weekends have been badly inconvenienced when there is a very very simple solution that does not involve massive re-routing of trans, that hardly inconveniences other riders and that is in line with historic patterns (at least as far back as 1967).
NYC Transit is supposed to meet the needs of all riders especially a very large minority as in this case.
But we've rehased all these arguments before.
First of all, only a fraction of brighton riders are going to NYU or the Village. Second, 90% of THOSE riders aren't going EXACTLY to 6th Ave and Waverly Pl or 6th Ave and 3rd St. These places aren't exactly major attractions; it's other parts of the Village that are the attractions.
Instead of changing for a D at Dekalb, other choices include:
- Changing for the D at Atlantic (3 mins according to David of Bway; as far as I can see from the current schedules you get the same D you would get if it did stop at Dekalb; you just get some exercise too.)
- Changing for an N or R at Canal and taking it to 8th St (just as good or better for all of NYU except the Law School)
- Changing for an L at Union Sq and taking it to 14th and 6th
- Changing for a 2/3 at Atlantic and taking it to 12th or 14th St and 7th (as good or better for the West Village)
Mark
I like the concept. Keep up the good work!
I was thinking of doing something like this.
My scheme would allow you to:
1) Left Click: Show the track map in a pop-up
2) Right Click: Show the street map in a pop-up
3) Double Click: Open a new Window to see Dave's page of the station.
: ) Elias
But I was thinking of building such a thing.
If I do build it then Dave can have it.
Elias
I can definitely answer the first question. The stations at Rockaway Pkwy. and E. 105th St. on the (L) are at ground level. Rockaway Pkwy. still has a ground-level entrance. E. 105th St. was originally entered from the grade crossing, which was abolished sometime between 1964 and 1967, IIRC. The Metropolitan Av. station at the end of the (M) line is also at the surface, with a ground-level entrance. The Wilson Av. station on the (L) line has two levels. The Brooklyn-bound platform is open-air, and is directly above the Manhattan-bound platform, which is at ground level but is covered by the above-mentioned Brooklyn-bound platform and looks like an underground station.
Also, the Beach 116th St. station at the end of the Rockaway Park (S) lines is at ground level.
As for the second question, I believe that many of the elevated stations have wooden station houses either under the el (where there is a connection between the two sides) or on both sides of the platform (where there isn't).
Hope you find this info helpful.
Sincerely,
Bob Sklar
Oops! The (A) line (strictly speaking, IND) also has surface stations at Aqueduct-N Conduit Av, Howard Bch-JFK and Broad Channel.
Bob
The station is in the exact same place now as it was then.
The same street that once crossed the tracks (for which the station is named) now dead ends on the edge of the ROW. It's not very hard to figure out.
wayne
wayne
Turnbull used to be there. I've seen photos with the old porcelain street signs with it. There seems to be a driveway along the ROW around E105 these days, and that may be what remains of Turnbull.
I'd imagine Turnbull was eliminated when the old gated crossing was, though I could be wrong.
I started exploring Brooklyn by bike in 1974...just a year after the crossing was modernized! Just a bit too late...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Looking at the street configurations near Linden Blvd., I'm intereted in findiong out if Turnbull was the southern route of Van Sinderin (aka Vesta) Avenue? They seem to come close to being aligned in a North/South direction.
I have some nice memories of East 105 Street. Before that factory was built it sat in the middle of a field. On a warm summer day with a mild breeze blowing it seemed far removed from an urban setting and it was easy to imagine yourself somewhere in the country.
The station was indentified as East 105 Street, at or near Turnbull. It was never quite clear if this was Turnbull Avenue or Turnbull Road. It fact I don't remember if Turnbull was ever paved. The Brooklyn boys will know more about this than I do.
Access to the station was by walking accross the train tracks and climbing a short flight of stairs up to the platform. where a small(and narrow) station-house was located.
A train of Standards would come lumbering down the mainline blowing the standard railroad signal for grade crossings; two-long, a short and a long on the whistle. The gates were automated by this time and would lower to block traffic. Passengers also had to wait for the train to leave in order to exit the platform.
Full time service was provided by the # 16 14 Street-Canarsie Line with additional service during rush hours by the #14 Bway-Bklyn Local.
Standards were the usual equiptment but an occassional train of R-16's would show up from time to time.(Circa 1965).
Larry, RedbirdR33
It was Turnbull Avenue and was never paved. In effect, the line ran down the middle of Turnbull, but I only actually drove on the part of the avenue east of the station. There was a little lunch shack on the southwest corner of Turnbull and E105.
A couple of the nearby alleged streets (E106 and E107, IIRC) were built up as dirt enbankments pointing at the station platform from the east side, as if they planned to bridge the station one day, but this obviously never happened. I suppose those roadways have been leveled.
On part of my memory is different from yours. In the time I knew the crossing (1957-on) the trains never used the --o- of railroad trains. They came to a complete stop before the crossing, then blew short-short before proceeding.
In the other direction it simply blew two shorts before leaving the station and entering the crossing.
Thanks Paul: Memory does fade somewhat over the years. When were the gates automated? I always see pictures when they were manually operated.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Elias
OTH: : )
In that case, they *were* at the end of the world.
wayne
Wrong. The grade crossing closed in 1973.
David
David
Some observations I noticed while looking through the R-1/9 units, such as #1575 having that newly painted blue with yellow floor scheme. #1575 also has a *new* fluorescent light fixture salvaged from a newer SMEE car, probably as a, ahem, replacement for those six missing light glass lenses that originally were found missing midway inside the car.
#100 and #484 seem to look the same to me, but I can see that these units along with #1575, all had a cosmetic repainted touch up here and there. By the way, #100 has each of its front bulkhead ends signed up for the IND "GG" line.
The restoration on car #401 is quite evident here, including its number plates being cleaned up as much as possible. I can see that this car has all of its required straps as needed, and the blue and grey interior paint job is still bright and glowing coming off from the reflection of the really powerful incandescent light bulbs throughout.
-William A. Padron
["TT / West End Local"]
THAT I've gotta see!!
I was going to post it when I got back to the office but I see Mr. Padron beat me to it.
Thank you.
Nothing new from the MTA.
Bob Sklar
It's probably vandals. Time for cameras.
The first day I noticed that all the scaffolding was cleared out, and the elevator placed in service, overnight some skel took a biiiig dump right in front of the doors.
I guess you guys can all blame me for that :(
Oh yes, there's theoretically a system that alerts the T/A's HQ when the elevator dies (and if the OOS light is on, that'd do it, among other things). They're also retrofitting them with a few new features (including the ability to "Phone Home"). I don't recall if they automagically go OOS if the doors hang up, but they do signal it, so if someone was screwing with the doors, that'll do it. IIRC, to clear OOS requires a guy to show up and toggle inspection on the controller...
(Actually, it probbably WASN'T the controller that died, more likely a door problem that caused it to panic and shut the car, or, the thing could be out for maintenance - you can manually activate the OOS light)
www.stationreporter.net
This will be the dawn of a new era in the dual sites category. nycsubway.org and stationreporter will compliment each other.
On stationreporter, you can read up on the new LIRR pages that were jointly done by me and Peggy (along with existing work by Wayne Mr. SlantR40), all of the LIRR branches were done in station-by-station format. New LIRR photos by me will be up for a couple of branches I did, and over the coming summer months I will be adding more photos to the stations I haven't visited yet. Also new writeups on the NJT River Line done by "Choochoo" Bob Vogel. Peggy and Wayne also have to new IRT Faux IND tile colors scheme for each station. I also have the new Airtrain JFK page (it's been up for awhile), with more subway and rail stuff for a new section for "Kool's Kingdom" coming soon.
So nycsubway.org will contine to have the PATH, MNRR, HBLR as part of the Around New York pages, while others can be found under stationreporter.net.
My special thanks to Peggy for making this possible.
Please free free to read up on these pages, this is one thread sure worth discussing. Thank you.
Enjoy the LIRR, NJT, and Brooklyn PCC trolley pages.
The reason I ask is because I am doing a bit of research on R32 #3348, its history and such, and I came upon this post, which listed some R32 mismatched pairs. Also, the R32 page lists 3419 as one of those mismated cars. This leads me to the question of which car is 3418 mated to?
As you can plainly see in the image below, 3418 is in service, and the "A" end of this car is coupled to the "A" end of its original mate, 3419, who, according to the list available on the R32 page, is mated with 3740 (How can you tell? "B" cabs don't have speedometers or air gauges, which the cab in the image shows).
Back in the old grafitti days, every R-27/30 was mismated. If you found a correctly mated pair, you found the holy grail !
Bill "Newkirk"
Me and my fast typing.....
wayne
In order, lowest even number to highest
--------------------------------------------------------
3348 - 3549 (note A)
3382 - 3831
3418 - 3863
3420 - 3645
3444 - 3777
3468 - 3445
3470 - 3919
3502 - 3905
3520 - 3891
3530 - 3741
3548 - 3593
3558 - 3421
3592 - 3469
3600 - 3503
3628 - 3669 (note B)
3644 - 3621
3650 - 3767
3658 - 3471
3740 - 3419
3776 - 3617
3830 - 3531
3862 - 3521
3890 - 3383
3904 - 3559
3918 - 3601
Note A - 3348 originally numbered 3659, converted from 'B' unit to 'A' unit
Note B - 3669 originally numbered 3668, converted from 'B' unit to 'A' unit; original 3669 wrecked 12-01-74; 3629 wrecked 5-71.
wayne
wayne
AEM7
Car 3348 always amuses me. I had thought the lowest number of R32 was 3350, and here comes 3348, with the strangest number plate I've ever seen.
If by coincidence two mismathed pairs had malfunctioning cars and IF the two good ones just happened to be consecutively numbered, it might happen.
http://www.thesentinel.com/348976833816512.php
It's supposed to be an award for idiots and 12-niners in the NYCT System.
Just check out these threads.
"This Week's Darwin Award Candidates"
"I thought I was preventing a Darwin moment..."
-Chris
She did not do something to get herself stupidly killed.
All she did was board a wrong train going to the yard....she didn't jump in front of it.
What exactly do you think they do to people who wind up in the yard, anyway?
Mark
[The MEGAMONSTER emerges from the tunnel, picking at his teeth with a toothpick...] "Goose, what goose what that?"
What we do with those unfortunates who ride into the yard is offer them the opportunity to work for food. When I meet my old buddies, I proudly announce, "Wake up slackers, the work will set you free. For those who work, there will be food/water/clothing/shelter. For those who don't, expect nothing." My crewmember working upstairs in CarBody today told me he did 'propulsion in New Tech' and asked if I mentioned to anyone what we did doing TWO cars. 'Sure' and it had opened a big can of sour worms in the crew. Impressed labor keeps the subways clean. TrainDude loves this. CI Peter
The Langoliers come for them.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Modern day society is really headed to the crapper when people must be on a phone almost every waking moment of the day yakking away. I assume the young lady brain cell may have been fried by her phone. I hope she enjoyed climbing down her train in the yard and climbing up another one heading for Penn Sta.
Bill "Newkirk"
And what did we do before fire was invented? They ate food raw and uncooked. And nutrition went on just fine.
Sushi!
Chuck Greene
Maybe LIRR could recruit her to help with yard clean up, or scrubbing the employee bathrooms...
Cell phones suck anyway.
You know what else sucks? Electricity!
Pigs, have I told you that I have a plan to BLOCK OUT the Sun?
I'm going to try this.
At least with the cell phone, after she finishes talking to whoever she was talking to, she can call 911 and say she's trapped on a train in the yard. I wonder how long it took before she got off the phone.
Hopefully she didn't say she's in Sunnyside Yard.
I especially enjoy telling someone who missed their stop on the last train of the night due to babbling on a cell phone, "Well, now you can use your trusty cell phone to call a nice expensive taxi!"
Nah, there's nothing left there. :)
In any case, the MTA sure cleaned out that yard... still not much except for some earthmoving and laying down of 1 or 2 new tracks.
"This is what happens when you are not paying attention"
And to top it off, i this case she had an MTA employee (Train Dude) actually try to get her attention.
Oh well.
The PA frequently is inaudible in sme cars.
The couple of times I got stuck on a platform, waiting in line for the escalator, it looked to me like NJ Transit conductors actually fumigate the train just like the subway conductors do.
I wonder why LIRR doesn't do the same.
I always thought that this was just an artifact of whatever ancient dispatching system which runs the place. That's how they use it to designate an out-of-service track (mark it occupied in the system, with a fantom train, so nothing goes there).
A couple of months ago I was over there in the middle of the PM rush hour, with six or seven trains on the board, ready to go. They announced a "track circuit problem" and stopped everything. On the board, all of the tracks flipped over to "West Side Yard" at the same time. Game over. I didn't wait to see how the episode played itself out. The missus' train arrived literally two minutes before the spectacle began, so moments later she showed up, and we went to have dinner.
Chuck Greene
The R-142, R-142a, and R-143 trains have "last stop" incorporated into the automated signs and announcements. The R-44 and R-46 electronic destination signs include a "LAST STOP" reading; train crews are supposed to change the reading when approaching the terminal, and most do. On trains with roll signs, passengers have to listen.
wayne
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Not that mistakes don't happen. Once, years ago I snuck into some closed off coaches on a LIRR diesel train around Babylon. I was headed for Patchogue and it was after midnight. Of course, I nodded off in the empty car. I wound up waking up between Speonk and Quogue. Got off in Quogue and walked back to Speonk for the next westbound. Around 3:30 in the morning. It was interesting walk anyway.
I'llbet it was dark as hell out htere at that time of the morning....and critters running around everywhere.
- Amanda
My cell phone gets decent reception on the platforms and in trains at Penn Station, even though it has a hard time getting a decent signal in many above-ground locations.
I lasted a day at Long Lines ... they wanted to send me to clean up the Murray Hill vault PCB fire and I wasn't interested in any of that so I quit. Walked up Hudson Street to the NEXT building and went to work for Western Union. Lasted there for a while. 23's, 28's, 33's and joy of joys, got to work FAX and high speed bursters. Within a few months, got sent to main NYK transmission pool because I could read 5 level paper tape without the need for purple ink to tell me what I was reading. I could empty the spillover bins with the best of them and crank up 300 volts to wake up the Forest Hills office on the other end of the pair. I *liked* that part. :)
My bet is the TA could learn much from 5 and 8 level paper tape. Heh.
Electromechanicals may be clunky and may require PEOPLE to make them go, but they were inherently more reliable when they worked and were maintained. To bring things on topic, subway signalling. Unca Dave Barazza, we salute you. :)
Are the headlamps on a dedicated backed-up source, or do they share power with the interior lighting? Door control? Both? I understand that battery backup is even available for traction on the newest equipment - what else has changed from the "classics?"
Mark
As for battery backup, everything works on battery except big motors. Without third rail power, HVAC/convertors/traction motors are dead. Lighting, control systems and door control unit motors remain active with charged batteries and/or power trainline. No trainset moves on batteries...you can only simulate operation and mostly if the air resivoir is full. CI Peter
Elias
http://www.transitgallery.com/showpic.php?uuid=14&aid=253&pid=9113
Thanks for the video Brian.
Bill "Newkirk"
- Amanda
The funniest experience I had with a rat was at 14th/8th a while back. There was a rat on the platform. Some woman was walking down from the mezzanine, and all of a sudden she saw the rat, screamed like I never heard anyone scream, as it echoed through the station, and high tailed it back up the stairs. It scared the hell out of the rat too, as it leaped across the express tracks and down the opposite express track. I was laughing so hard I nearly bust a gut.
Squirrels live outside, in trees, and carry nuts/acorns in their mouths. Rats live indoors and underground, rummage through trash, and have a general mean disposition about them.
Chuck Greene
As posters like AP and RonInBaySide (Yikes, those two in the same sentence?) have been able to prove the net gain of Queens Blvd. riders clearly override that of Crosstown riders.
It is clear fact that the majority of QB riders are heading to Manhattan, not to Brooklyn and at Court Square, G riders have a perfectly acceptable transfer available.
Don't pass negative judgement on the V as it has no such con effect on the E or F or anything else for that matter. Viva La V.
Whatever. Long live the (V).
-Chris
The V train hampers my travels if anything. The closest train station to my home is a G train station in brooklyn. Because the G doesn't connect to the F any longer, it makes my excursions out to Jamaica a little bit tougher.
That said, the existing plan is far better than the old one. Local riders have better choices, and exp riders have emptier trains.
You have the E Train to Jamaica
Am I correct?
David
Show-off.
If you view the source of your own post, you'll see the text <INPUT TYPE=HIDDEN NAME="followup" VALUE="680726">
This tells the posting script what you're responding to. Cut and paste the source code of the posting form into another posting form and replace the number in that tag with the number of the post you're responding to. Be sure to precede the whole thing with a </form> tag (if you don't, you'll see why later), then click preview. Your custom post form is ready, and it's on the talk.nycsubway.org server where it needs to be. Post whatever you want, click preview and your preview should show you how your message will look, as if you were able to post normally, then click post.
If you guys/gals want, I'll just start another thread.
Da Hui
-Chris
Well, that's our new campaign! Run the V during weekends!
This time, I closed the tags...
1. The V was supposed to run 24/7, but that got shelved when the G crowd got loud. As a result, the G runs in Queens when it does because the V doesn't.
2. Right now, any construction on the QBL causes the G to be cut back to Court Square, but at least it still runs and its crews are used. The same construction would get the V compeltely suspended, meaning that all weekend V crews would frequently be paid for not working.
-Chris
There is no comparison since Queens is certainly more likely to get some sort of subway expansion than SI will in the near future. Of course, you have extreme NIMBY opposition who claim the exact same things you listed.
I meant badly undersized, not underserved.
I'd agree with a cross-Narrows tunnel to merge the SIRT to the main Subway system, and perhaps restoring the North Shore route (in addition to the current SIRT-turned-Subway).
I also agree with expansion into Eastern Queens, and hey, cross Bronx expansion of the D to co-op city (or the 6, your choice). And quite a bit elsewhere too...
There is not enough density in SI for a subway, especially compared to the needs in Queens and SE Brooklyn, and don't forget the Upper East Side or Co-op City in the Bronx.
A Narrows tunnel, connection to the SIRT, reopen North Shore line & extend to SI Mall...I can't see any more than that.
I think some rail line across the northern part of the island to link any Bayonne conncetion to the existing SIRT would make a lot of sense, too, though I've read here that there are reasons that the old North Shore ROW can't be used for this purpose any more. (I don't remember the reasons for this, sorry.)
Alternately, I can see a rail connection along the I-278 corridor across the Arthur Kill to connect with the NJT commuter commuter rail station at Elizabeth.
Mark
IMO, SI transit really doesn't need to be that complex though. Atleast the rail transit. I think 2 commuter rail lines, a subway line or 2, and a light rail line would do fine.
The light rail line would be an extension of HBLR via the Bayonne. It'd follow the willowbrook ROW down to Great Kills Park
The commuter rail lines would run from Jamaica, through Brooklyn via the Bay Ridge, then to SI via the cross harbor tunnel. From there, the 1st line would run to NJ via the North Shore line. The second would run to Perth Amboy, Nj via the current SIR and an extension from Tottenville. The trains would make all the current stops between St. George and Old Town, but then limited stops(Grant City, New Dorp, Great Kills, Eltingville, Huguenot, then Tottenville).
The other stops would be served by a new subway line under the narrows that'd merge with the SIR(obviously, it'd have its own tracks, but along the same ROW). This subway line would make all the SIR stops between Grasmere and Tottenville(including the commuter rail stops listed above). A second subway line would run under the narrows also, but then along SIE to Victory BLVD, then down Richmond Av to SI mall. From there, it'd run down to the Huguenot station and merge with the other subway line and continue to Tottenville making all stops between Huguenot and Tottenville.
Actually, I see no reason for SIRT to exist after the Subway comes to the island (which I suppose was the original plan anyway) - the Current SIRT becomes one Subway line, perhaps the North Shore another one - although expansion to the mall would be nice, and yes there is considerable density of dwelling units thanks to the rows upon rows of patented "Staten Island large multi-family attached townhouse units" not sure if there would be enough traffic to support it.
Also, maybe, the HBLR should be extened from Bayonne to Staten Island, possibly street-running over the Bayonne Bridge, and then should join the former North Shore ROW to St. George.
-Chris
The following is an excerpt from nycsubway.org by Joe Brennan
"The original Dual Contracts plan provided for a tunnel under the Narrows from southern Brooklyn/Bay Ridge to Staten Island. The tunnel was intended to leave the 4th Avenue subway at 65th St, Brooklyn, and would have entered Staten Island midway between St. George and Stapleton, and would have had branches to each. The 4th Avenue subway has four tracks between 59th and 65th Streets, two of which were intended for the Staten Island connection.
The Staten Island link might have been built in several different ways. It is likely that a full 4-track subway to Fort Hamilton would only have made sense if it led to a Narrows tunnel. A different plan, which got as far as engineering drawings and even some excavation, would have left the subway just south of 59th St, and you can see tunnel stub headings running straight from the local tracks immediately south of the station. Several different plans were drawn up for the Narrows tunnel, including a two track and a four track option.
Recent discussions of a railroad freight tunnel across New York Harbor from New Jersey via Staten Island may once again bring about discussion of connecting the subway to Staten Island. It is likely that any tunnel built would be designed to tie into the LIRR's Bay Ridge Branch across southern Brooklyn to East New York, Fresh Pond, and via the New York Connecting Railroad to the Hell Gate Bridge."
Click here for BMT 4th Av Page
Hope that helps.
-Chris
Govenor Bush had a bunch of oil execs in Talahassee last week for a conference on why gasoline prices were so high. He missed the chance to string them up right then and there. If he had done that, the price for gasoline would be 99 cents a gallon or less.
As far as I'm concerned, cheap gasoline has been the ruination of America.
-Chris
That's because the EWR Monorail uses the second most useless switch design there is for monorails (the rotary switch - the most useless being the Wuppertal style stopping the train on a moving section). Beam Replacement switches, such as those at Walt Disney World, give a far better cycle of 12 seconds, hardley surprising seeing as the moving parts are relatively similar to a standard switch. Two other effective designs are those wonderful segmented switches (the ones with bendy beams) and the suspended monorail switch (which looks suspiciously like a standard rail switch).
Other lines includes:
The SIR is "captured" and integrated into the mainline subway system and connected to 4th Avenue. The South Shore line, from Grasmere southward, is served by (E) and (R) trains, the line north of Grasmere is served by (J) train. *
The North Shore line rehabilitated and rebuilt for subway service. Presuming that the line remained intact for its entire length and not had portions built upon, the line in scenario B would be served by the same (J) service that would serve the South Shore lines, Clifton, Stapleton and Tompkinsville Station, and a new station at St. George for through-routing purposes would be built to allow trains to continue to Arlington. Also the yard at the western end of the line would be converted into subway yard
A line from Hudson County entering S.I. via Clove Rd, then east via The S.I. expwy and then via the South Shore with (J) service to St. George using the platform and tracks of the current St. George terminal. I've routed (L) service for that line.
Had the South Beach line been left intact, and had it been depressed/rebuilt in the area where the ROW intersected with the Verazzano Bridge toll plaza, I have service on the ROW served by (M) trains via the same S.I. tunnel used by the (Y) train. The existance of this line and service via the North Shore and South Shore lines, is contigent upon the alternate possibility that the BMT tunnel from 4th AVenue to S.I. had been built.
A line via Forest Avenue that has connections from the IND Fort Hamilton line and the BMT Tunnel to 4th Avenue in Brooklyn. It is served by two routes, one being an (X) train, which serves the 2nd AVenue routing in Scenario B from Fort Hamilton, the other being an alternate routed (N) train from 4th Avenue
Lastly, via Fort Hamilton, a routing diverging northward from VAnderbilt Avenue towards Westervelt AVenue, based one of the original proposed terminals of IND service in S.I.
* A Narrows Tunnel from the 95th STreet Station of the 4th AVenue line is built to connect to the SIR ROW
Also note that a subway yard serving the former SIR South Shore and Hylan Blvd. lines is built to maintain additional rolling stock for the (E), (F) and (R) lines and that the (N) and (X) trains via Forest Avenue can have the option of simply laying up additional equipment or having it shopped out of the Arlington Yard along with (J), (L) and (M) line equipment.
Also check out my Routing Scenario post on this board for more the Queens Blvd. routings based on Scenario B.
Staten Island Base Map
-Chris
-Chris
that's a good map (well, certainly part of a map)
-Chris
-Chris
As for 23 St Crosstown - I'll think about it. I'm planning to extend the Franklin Ave. Line from the north end, maybe I can curve it towards Manhattan and run across 23rd St.
BTW, how did you figure out it was Amsterdam Avenue? I didn't indicate that anywhere on the map...
Elias
There is a suggestion I made which is just slightly more possible. You know the underpass on 1st Avenue under 42nd Street near the U.N.? Put one on First Avenue, Second Avenue, 3rd Avenue, Lexington Avenue, 9th Avenue and 10th Avenue, and build a flyunder at 11th Avenue/West Street to allow access to the southbound lanes without crossing the northbound lanes at grade.
Then give 23rd Street two-to-one signal priority over the avenues. You want to get across 23rd Street? Go out to where you can do it in a pipe. Then put serious bus lanes, guarded by second curbs, along 23rd Street. You want to make deliveries? Do it at night or on a side street.
Result? Buses that move 60 percent as well as trains. Not the same as a crosstown subway. Not as expensive either.
Beccause, as you well know, the avenue all have lions on them, and 6th avenue a rather deep lion... your 23rd Street Subway must go under all of these.
My plan put the 23rd Street Line VERY DEEP... with a broad IND style concourse above it. The Concourse, of course is lined with shops as far as the eye can see, and is of course a Mall in its own rite. There is a high speed people mover, so I might consider even fewer stops, say at West of 2nd Ave, West of 5th Ave, and East of 8th Ave but with like I suggest people movers, and Shops lining the way from First Avenue to 10th Avenue.
Free Transfers via Metro Card Only.
Elias
Free Transfers via Metro Card Only.
You still take tokens? :)
You still take tokens? :)
No, but I would not bother trying to maintain a control zone for the length of this mall: You leave the platform, and you are in the mall, free to go wither you will, but will swipe again to make your continuing conection.
Elias
Depends which block you mean - none of them make 1000' anyway:
"The space between the First and Second avenues is six hundred and fifty feet; from the Second to the Third avenue is six hundred and ten feet. The spaces from the Third to the Fourth, from the Fourth to the Fifth (which is the Manhattanville avenue or Middle road), and from the Fifth to the Sixth avenue, are each nine hundred and twenty feet. The spaces west of number six are each of them eight hundred feet. The westerly side of the Avenue A begins at the intersection of the northerly side of North street by the westerly side of Essex street. The northerly side of Avenue B begins at the intersection of the northerly side of North street by the westerly side of Trundle street. The westerly side of Avenue C begins at the intersection of the northerly side of North street by the westerly side of Pitt street; and the westerly side of Avenue D begins at the intersection of the northerly side of North street by the westerly side of Columbia street."
1811 Commissioners' Plan
I can't even bicycle along the Norht Shore Expressway nevermind walking there to get a subway!
Another problem with SI is the fact that the city is not a grid like Manhattan, Queens or Brooklyn. It's almost impossible to drive or ride a bicycle through Staten Island as it was designed like Long Island where you go two or three blocks then you have to drive around a group of houses. Furthermore, what are you going to do with those huge hills?? Well. It's a nice dream.
I can personally attest for Queens that it certainly has its 'non-grid' parts. I'm pretty sure Brooklyn has some of them as well. Manhattan wins with being the most 'gridlike.'
The non-numbered streets don't have a "grid-like" pattern in Brooklyn.
I haven't seen any mention of increased service on the New Haven Line, but I would hope that most (if not all) of the 340-something fleet would be in service during peak times. Perhaps Metro-North could be creative, and have shorter trains during less-traveled times, and add a few cars during peak travel.
Usually the maximum number of cars per train is 10, but they've had trains as long as 22 cars before (like for the special train to the Iraq War protest last year). I'm not saying the trains have to be that long, but a few extra cars wouldn't hurt; passengers wouldn't mind walking through a few extra cars 5 minutes before exiting if they get a seat.
I hope Metro-North can help out here. It's what they should do to begin with, and after all the problems this winter they owe it to CT and Westchester County citizens. -Nick
Bill "Newkirk"
If things get really bad, I think they'd be wise to cancel some Shore Line East service and move those trains over to run extra shuttles between New Haven and Stamford.
From my office, I can watch both the MNRR and I-95 through Greenwich. The railroad seems to be operating normally. I-95 has about half the normal volume for this time of day.
CG
That would not be wise. Shore Line East (IIRC) runs twice a day, and therefore a cancellation would be 50% detriment to the service; An extra trainset on the New Haven Line is only a 0.5%~2% capacity increment.
Diesels can operate Stamford to New Haven, as can equipment without 3rd rail shoes. I think what would be smart would be to make trains leaving GCT local to just before Stamford; skip Stamford forcing people boarding in Stamford to ride the diesels, then drop people off at the stops after Stamford. This is likely to annoy a lot of people, and likely to cause problems with train scheduling etc. So I don't think their solution is half bad, basically removing the New Haven Expresses and making them locals. I think they could have done more to beef up the Stamford-New Haven section though. But I also see that probably won't be the constrained section.
AEM7
It's hard to criticize MN's service today. The accident occurred at about 8:00 last night, so they only had about 9 hours from the time of the accident until the start of the rush hour to come up with a plan.
"I think what would be smart would be to make trains leaving GCT local to just before Stamford; skip Stamford forcing people boarding in Stamford to ride the diesels, then drop people off at the stops after Stamford. This is likely to annoy a lot of people..."
It will most certainly annoy the people going from GCT to Stamford, since they apparently won't be able to get home!!!
CG
There are 5 trains arriving in Stamford, from NH, between 7:30 and 8:30 AM. 2 are SLE, 3 are partial locals, that then pick up more passengers in Stamford and head to GCT.
By running all 5 trains local, they provide lots of service, and also don't necessarily risk overcrowding because the trains weren't full to begin with. The electric trains can't have been full to begin with because they were available to take on more passengers at Stamford (and sometimes also points south of Stamford).
"We should have ordered new equipment five or 10 years ago," he said. "It takes a disaster before (state legislators) take action on the railcar replacement issue. Well, here's a disaster."
Jim Cameron, vice chairman of the Connecticut Rail Com-muter Council
From http://www.greenwichtime.com/news/local/scn-gt-commute2mar28,0,1819099.story?coll=green-news-local-headlines
If you want to track this story like me go to Google News.
And about your bet of the busway, I think it will become a avenue soon enough. I suggest a couple names.
Transitway Dr &
No Bus Rd &
Roll-and Rd (jk).
NOPE: M1s M3s can only mate with their own kind.
(1) I-95 was out of service for weeks, Bridgeport will be out on the accident side for two weeks, the other just a couple days.
(2) Bridge had to be built, overpass had to be rebuilt.
(3) Traffic overloaded local streets...
If it was the Housatonic the Acelas won't be jetting by that fast, since the Bridgeport Amtrak/MNR Bridge is on the shore of that river; that would be a true disaster.
This worked out pretty well since bridges are much higher than overpasses usually.
Also please fellow sub talkers please don't be afraid to ask a question. A proverb states "One who asks a questions is a fool for a minute, one who never asks is a fool for life."
Better to take Metro North.
Peace,
ANDEE
Mr. T, if the Bridge is gonna be out for more than a month, we might consider getting a bunch of the Branford crew into yer van and use the Port Jeff Ferry to get past the bad section of I-95.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Regards,
Full Series Jim
Your pal,
Fred
If you're heading northbound on the Merrit you also can get a quick glimpse of the Talmadge Hill station just south of the crossing.
We did, or rather, Walter did and mentioned it to me. I was too busy making sure some clown doing 80 wasn't going to restyle the back end of my Ranchero.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Regards,
Jimmy
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Seems resonable...
BTW: How can you buy a card without "doing something" with the machine?
Just put a sign on the machine...
"This transaction is recorded for your security."
Then everybody who approaches the machine can put a paper bag over their heads. Hey. instead of selling swipes, the bad guys can rent out the paper bag: $1.00 per transaction.
: ) Elias
Lest me join ya there, brah...
I gave a finger to the R142 class several times.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Not saying that no truckers speed.
Peace,
ANDEE
OTR coach drivers also have been known to drive like maniacs.
Reality Check:
The public also typically blames truck drivers for car-truck accidents, though federal crash data suggests otherwise: In 2001 - the last year with reliable figures - about 65 percent of passenger-vehicle drivers were cited for contributing to those crashes.
(Chip Jones in the Richmond Dispatch; various DOT studies regarding Hazmat safety also found the same conclusion -- some studies suggest cars cause 85% of truck-car accidents).
Opinion:
I don't really do that much driving on Interstates, but when I do go out I would say about 1 trucks in 10 operate with some degree of carelessness. For example, yesterday I was out on I-90 and witnessed a truck (North American Van Lines, 53-footer) overtake another truck, carrying Hazmat, in the right-hand-lane no less. We were cruising at around 70mph at that point in the left-most-lane and the 53-footer overtook both us and the Hazmat truck in the right-most-lane. So yeah, there are reckless truckers out there -- but we saw about 20 trucks yesterday, and all of them operated safely at-or-around the speed limit, except this 53-footer that I just talked about. And out of the pool of reckless truckers, I suspect they only do this when they have a hard deadline to meet, or are racing to get somewhere in order to pick up a desirable load. Most truckers prefer to cruise slowly if they don't have to be somewhere. It's more fuel efficient, saves wear on the rig, and it also means they don't have to pay as much attention. On the backhauls, hardly anybody ever speeds, unless they think there are loads waiting.
AEM7
You'd then be quite surprised at the number of truck accidents that occur when the trucker is hauling no load at all and headed for home. A powerful truck can pick up speed quickly once it's empty. After a long run hauling tons of cargo, a driver who isn't as alert as they should be may not immediately compensate in the way they drive and end up going way too fast for conditions.
In the insurance industry, billions of dollars have been lost by people trying to insure trucks. Long haul truckers are the worst risk of all.
CG
That is actually a legislative issue, and not much to do with the actual conditions that cause driving accidents. In an accident where a truck is found to be less than 50% responsible, the trucking firm will sometimes end up absorbing some of the costs anyway, for a variety of reasons: a sympathic judge or jury might award damages to the auto occupants even if they were at fault; an auto owner who causes $100,000 or more worth of damages might be unable to pay, resulting in the truck insurer absorbing the costs. Losing $ in insurance doesn't mean it's a greater "traffic accident cause"; it means it's a greater "traffic accident monetary risk".
AEM7
No, it doesn't (it couldn't, because the term "greater traffic accident cause" is still undefined).
My point was that your conclusion based on your admittedly small pool of observations is likely off-base. One can get a sense for this by looking at things like accident frequency but even those stats have flaws.
The numbers you cited earlier can also be interpreted many ways -- that the car driver contributed to 65% of truck-car crashes only means that at least 35% were caused entirely by the truck. Since most collisions involve some degree of fault by more than one driver, the 35% is actually a shockingly high figure!!
There are undoubtedly some excellent and safe truck drivers (owner-operators tend to have excellent driving records). The reality of the trucking business (long hours, low wage, transient employees, low barrier to entry for drivers, etc.) though, leads to a
less than stellar risk pool of drivers.
Look up some stats. For example, look at this file:
http://www.umtri.umich.edu/cntbs/doc/TIFA_Facts_2000.pdf
On page 3, the accident stats show:
(1) Head on collisions tend to occur in truck's lane by a ratio of 5:1 -- suggesting either the car or the truck are involved in reckless overtaking; since trucks are less likely to overtake each other on a two-lane road, accidents of this type are likely caused by reckless 4-wheelers.
(2) By a ratio of 5:1, trucks are likely to run into paths of others. Again, this type of accident is likely due to trucks being "cut off" by a 4-wheeler.
(3) Sideswipe, in truck's lane -- again, likely to be autos cutting off trucks without understanding the amount of braking distance a truck requires.
Granted, these are imperfect information, and it doesn't identify who is responsible for accidents. However the argument could be made that if trucks were more aggressive than autos, you would see more accidents where the accident occurs in the other vehicles' lanes as the truck weave in and out of lanes.
There are undoubtedly some excellent and safe truck drivers (owner-operators tend to have excellent driving records).
My understanding is that it is quite the opposite. Owner operators do not have guarenteed wage, and are much more likely to disobey traffic laws because they need the money.
The reality of the trucking business (long hours, low wage, transient employees, low barrier to entry for drivers, etc.) though, leads to a less than stellar risk pool of drivers.
I agree with that statement.
AEM7
I think that argument is a stretch -- even the authors of the report you cited clearly state that fault cannot be inferred from this data because right-of-way has not been captured.
If you agree that the trucking industry has a worse-than-average risk pool of drivers, why is it that you seem to think that trucks are safer than cars? Or have I mis-interpreted your comments?
CG
The reality of the trucking industry = long hours, low wage, transient employees, low barriers of entry.
Less than stellar risk pool of employees = correct, when compared to other professional machine operators that are paid better and have better employment conditions, e.g. the railroad industry, the construction industry, the charter coach industry, the chemical industry.
The reason you "observe" more "risk ($)" in the insurance industry per driver compared with amateur, unpaid auto drivers is because the typical interstate truck driver clocks up some 100,000~150,000 miles per year, compared to amateur, unpaid auto drivers' typical 5,000~25,000 miles per year. When you talk about "risk" in terms of monetary values, you're really talking about this formula:
Insurance Risk ($) = P*M*D
P = Probability of accident in a given mile driven
M = Number of miles driven per year
D = Expected cost of damages per accident
When you are talking about how skilled the drivers are, and whether they drive recklessly, the "risk" of accident should be measured in probability of accident per mile. Thus, you need to account for the fact that professional drivers drive many more miles and are operating larger machines that are capable of doing more damage in a wreck. Insurance Risk is therefore a poor proxy for driver skill.
AEM7
CG
My understanding is that it is quite the opposite. Owner operators do not have guarenteed wage, and are much more likely to disobey traffic laws because they need the money.
Company drivers are still paid by the mile. Travel more miles, make more money... so, except for the employees of a couple of major firms that actually track their employees' driving records carefully (and fire those who get tickets), most feel they have nothing to lose by speeding or keeping false logs. Owner-operators, on the other hand, have a vested interest in keeping their insurance costs low and minimizing the wear and tear on their trucks, so they are generally a safer group of drivers. My older daughter dispatches for a small firm in Arizona that is owned primarily by her cousin. When the firm was started several years ago they owned the trucks and trailers and the drivers were paid by the mile; repair bills (blown turbos, fried brakes, etc.) were high and each of the four drivers was involved in one or more at-fault accidents during the first two years. Last May they sold the tractors (keeping the trailers) and went to owner-operators (three of the existing drivers bought their assigned cabs while the other seven [the firm had been expanding] left). They now have eight operator-owned cabs pulling company-owned trailers; I don't know the maintenance situation but there has only been one accident in the past ten months, and that was the fault of another driver who backed into their parked truck at a truck stop. Pay is still by the mile, but the driver has a strong incentive to keep his/her fuel costs down (yes, two of the owner-operators are women - one solo, one half of a husband-wife team that handles a regular run to Canada), their repair bills reasonable, and their insurance costs affordable. On-time delivery and customer satisfaction are way up.
Now if I could just convince them to put that Canada load on TOFC...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Did you never go to Europe and see how Scandanavians move their freight? VOLVO makes the best tractors in the UK...
AEM7
Dave really needs to start a TRUCKtalk.nycsubway.org, heheh.
I really haven't seen any Volvo cab overs actually here in the US. Neither have I seen any by Ford. The only cab overs I've seen at International, Freightliner, Kenworth, and I think Peterbilt also. Volvo trucks in the Us are very sleek looking.
You are right about the cab contents however, although if they are all stowed in storage compartments there's not too much to worry about.
(tongue-firmly-in-cheek) Yeah, lazy arse European union labor... there ain't no way you'd get somebody to fix your truck if you were an owner-operator in the Heartlands... unless you want to fork over some hard earned dough.
Seriously though, running repairs are pretty common by almost all types of American truckers, except the most elite kind (i.e. UPS, or FedEx, or Yellow Freight). And you should learn something about the engine -- it might help you to operate better and might even save the day for you someday.
One time, I rode with a Regional Railways driver all the way down from Aberdeen, and he gave me a talk right from the Cummins engines on the 158's through the hydraulic transmission all the way down to the wheelset. Then he told me about the time when he saved the day because he heard some engine noise and thought it was going to fall off, and took the train out of service. Sure enough, they found loose and missing bolts when they inspected it afterwards.
AEM7
Train drivers on the other hand are taught some degree of mechanical knowledge for emergency situations. In fact, your story regarding the 158 is a good one as a couple of years ago an engine did in fact fall off a South West Trains '159' - virtually identical to a 158.
This site has loads of photos of trucks in the UK. How about this one or this one?
By the way, we do have cab-overs in the UK too - but not many. AEM7 is correct when he says this is due to the lenght issue - a cab-over tractor cannot pull a maximum-length trailer.
That's not 100% true. UPS, for example, pays their employees by the hour, as do most union less-than-truckload operators. Some local delivery drivers are also paid by the hour. In the truckload sector, pay by the mile is the norm, but driving more miles doesn't necessarily mean more money. There, dispatching is the issue. If you get a load through early, sometimes you will be offered a return load; on the other hand, if you arrive too early, the return loads have not materialized, and you'll be told to return empty (and you won't be paid) or go pick up an out-the-way load that nobody wanted. By and large, at peak demand time, driving faster is more money; at slow times, driving faster just means more fuel burned and no return loads, and time to sit in some distant city wondering why the fuck you drove at 70mph all the way there.
Owner-operators, on the other hand, have a vested interest in keeping their insurance costs low and minimizing the wear and tear on their trucks, so they are generally a safer group of drivers.
That is also not true. You are talking about a small section of owner-operators who are actually owner-operators by choice and have their own truck that they own outright. Many owner-operator have either company-financed trucks or bank-financed trucks, and many will drive it for 3-4 years and sell it off (sometimes at a profit). Since truck maintenance costs don't begin to go up very significantly until 6-7 years into the operation, it really doesn't matter what you do to the trucks if the bank owns it anyway and you're planning to sell it before it becomes evident that you've abused it. Union drivers, in general, because they are better paid and have strict work rules, do not feel the need to run the hell out of the trucks and do not feel pressure to make more money just to make ends meet.
My older daughter dispatches for a small firm in Arizona that is owned primarily by her cousin. [etc]
The selling the tractors may have nothing to do with the way the drivers are behaving -- but I take my hats off to you for your observation; I have no direct experience with trucking firms so I can't say for sure, I can only give you the general picture as seen by someone who has regularly read up on those issues and talked to truckers.
AEM7
When truck drivers are paid by the load how can a rational person NOT expect them to drive as fast as they can?
I have heard that some fleets in fact do install event recorders in their trucks. Many others track their trucks by GPS.
They are also used on refrigerated loads, to prove that the box was maintained at the correct temperature for the entire trip.
If it showed that the temperature was out of range. then the load was or could be spoiled and refused.
Same thing with tank trucks. They have to get a certificate that the tank was correctly and throughly cleaned between comodities, especially if a food comodity was to be carried.
Still, full aspect black boxes ought to be required on all trucks.
Apparently some automobiles with air bags *do* have an event recorder built into the airbag system, and this data has been pulled out and used in a court of law, even though the owner of the vehicle never knew that there was such a device on the car.
Elias
Here's a fact, the truck that is on an intermodal train can't ram into a car regardless of fault.
Earth to Mars...
Earth to Mars...
The stopping distance for a big truck is longer than the stopping distance for a little car.
When a car gets rear ended by a truck, it is usually the car that was misbehaving, such as trying to pass a truck just befre trying to get off at their exit. The car is already slowing down even as it cuts in front of the truck. Sometimes the trucker hs no option but to eat the car.
One wreck that I attended just out here on I-94, the trucker did try to slow down when cut off, but all he acomplished was to jack-knife his truck. He said he didn't want to hit that car, which inocently drove on as if nothing happened. The truck was carring frozen pork. It could have been carring fuel or anhydrous...
Elias
And with it goes the control of your vehicle.
1) the reaction time of the drivers is about equal (an alert trucker being better than an alert car driver~but a tired trucker being worse.)
2) But a car cutting off a truck is already slowing down before the truck driver can even think of reacting.
3) Under normal operating conditions, ain't no way a truck can stop as quickly as a car.
Elias
The speed limit here is 75 mph, police cruisers regularly do about 65. They get passed all of the time out here.
If they were doing the speed limit, all they would see is that same blue car for the next 40 miles. If they slow down all of the traffic must pass them, and they can eyeball more vehicles and drivers that way.
Elias
--ark
OK, let me get this straight... you were slowing down to 50... which is still 5 mph above the posted speed limit of 45... and you wonder why it's dangerous? While I don't always agree with the speed limits (why is I-40 in Arizona only 75 mph when the western end of that road has all of two curves in 150 miles and there's almost no traffic?), there's generally a good reason for it when an interstate is posted below 65.
I may get there a little slower, but unlike a lot of folks I arrive alive with my fenders and myself intact and in one piece.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You're right about the narrowing down of the road around Bridgeport. The highway loses a shoulder on the right. And I also recall a concrete dividing wall with very little spare room on the left-most lane. Not a very good location for night driving with or w/o hazardous road conditions.
For those of you who are not familiar with Denver, I-25 and I-70 meet northwest of downtown. Originally, motorists going to I-70 from I-25 would take an off ramp to the right, then come to a fork with a choice of going east or west on I-70. OTOH motorists from e/b I-70 wanting to get to n/b I-25 or from w/b I-70 to s/b I-25 had to take a left off ramp, both of which curved sharply. It was this maze of ramps which gave the junction its nickname, which endures to this day. There were yellow flashing lights at the exit signs. You had to slow down before taking either of those two ramps. The driver of that truck was unfamiliar with the ramp arrangement and took the ramp from e/b I-70 to n/b I-25 too fast.
A 15-year rebuilding project ensued which was at long last completed last November. It included a new flyover for I-70 over I-25 as well as continuous lanes on I-70 for more than a mile east of I-25. All off ramps from either highway are right handed turnoffs. Braided exits were built just to the south to 38th Ave., and a flyover ramp from s/b I-25 to the Park Ave. bridge was added, enabling baseball fans to get to Coors Field without tying up traffic on the 38th Ave. exit itself.
P. S. Two old bridges were supposed to be imploded this morning as part of the ongoing T-Rex project. They were at the I-25/I-225 junction. When the explosives were detonated, the lower bridge came down, but not the upper one. They started jabbing at it with one of those pokers used to break up pavement, and pretty soon the upper bridge came down. Apparently it contained more reinforcing steel than the crews had thought. The implosion was televised, and you could hear someone saying, "Aw, s--t!" when the upper bridge didn't come down.
Peace,
ANDEE
What are you talking about??? That's $3 more out of MY POCKET (and YOURS, too) that they're trying to squeeze out of you!
As you might have guessed, I'm opposed to it.
That's silly! It's only $3 per month, LOL!
I would be one of those who can't.
Still cheap at twice the price!
Peace,
ANDEE
The basic fare is $1.67 for anyone who can afford to buy $10-worth of rides at a time.
The hikes will go into effect in January of 2005 unless the agency closes a monstrous $800 million budget gap for next year.
“They borrowed too much money to rebuild the system and now they are paying a fortune on the bonds that they have issued. So they do have a serious financial problem,” Gene Russianoff from the Straphangers Campaign told Chi’en.
And it gets worse. Raising the fare on unlimited cards will only bring the gap down to about $500 million. The rest would come in the form of service cuts.
Transit sources say lines with the lowest ridership would be considered. Those are the M, V, J, Z, G and C trains.
Experts say lines cut back in 1995 could also see more reductions. Those were the 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, A, D, L and Q lines.
I wouldn't necessarily have a beef with the possible increase [if it’s really necessary] but they project that if it were to be done, the gap would only be down to $500 million so I don't like the reasoning to it and therefore, I oppose it since people would have to spend an additional $12 a month for a weekly card but I admit the monthly price is still fair. There's always more to a story with the MTA :-\.
And the 2 and 4. Sure go ahead cut them... they'll learn when trains can't leave the station because people are trying to cram on.
Fortunately these are only "experts" and not the TA itself on that one.
I feel that if they really need to close that gap, they should do it right and raise the fare all around.
I know right, but don't think that it isn't out of the equation. How much further could they cut service on the M and the 2/3 lines for example, in which the 2 and 3 could have better headways than it does, mainly on weekends :-\. They could start by preventing budget overruns and delays of the completion of renovations for example.
..and do away with the pocket liners club! HEAVEN FORBID! 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
I disagree with that statement. When we got a $2 fare, the unlimited cards were not raised up by the same factor. Previous to the fare hike, buying a monthly pass would only be cheaper than PPR if you rode more than just to and from work, or only minimally cheaper. Now, if you go to work only 20 days a month, it's a 10 dollar savings. This month has 23 workdays. It's $16 dollar savings.
I'm a user of monthly passes, and I wouldn't disagree with an increase.
Heh, cut back on A service, as if it weren't bad enough already. On both legs during midday hours people have to deal with a headway that other lines do not see until the very late evening hours.
But on the main part of the line, "A" service is impeccable.
I'd not trust this article anyway. They mention cuts from 95, and act as if some of these lines have not had service increases since that time.
Exactly. One of the flaws of being the longest route and add up all potential delays (like door holding) and inefficient use of available space (baby strollers, polehangers) and you have a serious problem.
I highly question the credibility of these 'experts.'
They can Cut the J so that every other train from Jamaica Center Terminates at Broadway Junction. That said train would Terminate on the Center Track, change ends and head back to Jamaica, as that is the most used part of the line.
God forbid we'll see that happen. Virtually all of those lines are crushed during rush hour and these 'experts' think otherwise. No.
Hey, British James, where have you been studying this stuff? You are beginning to sound like an expert. I want to know how you got there. There is generally a lack of rail management expertise in the UK, and if you figured out all this stuff yourself then your IQ is three times mine. So I suspect you were taught it. Who taught you? Tell them they did a good job.
AEM7
Wrong. They borrowed that much money to do five years of normal replacement.
They call it "state of good repair" because what they are replacing isn't in good repair when they do it. But they aren't catching up, they are breaking even. If things last 50 years, and you replace 1/50th of them every year, after 50 years you will achieve "state of good repair." And that's what's going on.
This is the real scandal, and everyone knows it. The ongoing replacement and repair of buses, subway cars, signals, stations, structures etc. is an ongoing expense. You don't mortgage yourself to the hilt to do five years of this work. What happens the next five years, and the next?
Pataki, Bruno, and Silver. The saints and heroes. The fare not only stayed stable, but acutally (with the disounts) went down for eight years, even as wages went up. And the city and state stopped contributing cash money to the capital plan, using it for tax cuts and spending on other things. And they cut employer contributions to the pension funds. And the cut EMPLOYEE contributions to the pension funds. And they made the pensions more lucrative. How did these great men deliver something for nothing then?
By giving us nothing for something now. Bastards, and those who didn't get it are suckers.
That's an interesting point. But exactly where is the line between maintenance and renewal-enhancement? Let's say you replace old 90 lbs rail with new 115 lbs rail. As a result of the heavier rail, you can now run faster through a boggy swamp. Is that maintenance? Is that renewal? Is that enhancement? Is it a Capex? If you didn't replace the rail, they'll break anyway; but you can no longer by 90 lbs rail. But by putting in 115 lbs rail, you are enhancing the system's capabilities, so you can pay for it with capital dollars, right?
It really makes no difference whether something is capex or maintenance, as far as transit is concerned. The idea behind putting capex in a separate account is that capex is supposed to deliver returns, so that you will have extra money to pay down the debt over the next 30 years. In transit, enhancements rarely deliver returns, because fares are politically controlled and not determined by the service levels or the capability of the system. So no matter if it is "state of good repair" or "capital upgrade", it's all going to come from subsidy. It's just a question of subsidy now or subsidy later, after the system is in a better shape.
If you buy the theory that politicans are more likely to approve subsidy if the system is in a good shape, then bonding make sense. If you believe politicans will never approve transit spending, then actually bonding is a way for transit joints to rip off Wall St., because when those bonds mature, they won't be paid. Because there is not enough revenue, and there is not enough subsidy. So you'll end up with some kind of government bail out, because, transit can't stop running.
I'll accept that the NET cost of some improvements, over and above replacement cost, is worth bonding for. For example, ATS and the high cost of CBTC during the pilot project phase. But the idea of a capital improvement is that you pay for it up front and get 50 years of benefits, so you pay for it over 50 years. That's fine for new investments in a developing area all built at once, like the #7 extension, where growth covers part of most of the cost. But we are talking about on ongoing proccess of renewing our infrastructure.
Normal replacement is an extension of routine maintenance, and if you bond for it, you get the 1970s. I will be especially furious if they say the cannot afford the system expansions (or can only afford those benefitting the suburbs) cause they already borrowed too much. Anyone else see that one coming? I saw it five years ago.
Isn't this all the same in the end? Consider model no.1: you construct the subway initially by bonding, then you rake in the revenues, and you spend it paying down the debt, and doing ongoing maintenance. At year 51, you discover that you have a plant in a good condition, because you had been doing maintenance. Good for you.
Consider model no.2: you construct the subway initially by bonding, then you rake in the revenues, but there's not enough revenues to pay down the debt and do maintenance. So you choose one of two alternatives: (a) you pay down the debt, then at year 51, you have to take out another bond to rebuild the system because you didn't do maintenance; or (b) you don't pay down the debt, just pay the interest, but you do your maintenance, so at year 51, your subway is still new, but you still hadn't paid it off, the bonds are still outstanding, so you bond again to pay off the bond.
What's the problem with model no.2? NOT ENOUGH REVENUE. It has nothing to do with the method of financing. Whatever you spend your revenue on, if there isn't enough to pay down the debt AND do your systemwide maintenance, then you'll end up shit creek.
For transit, how can you cure the "not enough revenue"? You raise fares, or you get more subsidy. There is no other way out.
I don't like having to bond to repair the infrastructure, but if they keep insisting on the low fares and low subsidies, then of course you will end up with cash issues down the road. Doesn't really matter who pays for repair, or how it's paid -- bonds, revenues, or subsidy. The point it has to be paid SOONER OR LATER.
AEM7
But consider this: transit relies on government subsidy. Government has a discount rate, too. If you spend this year's tax receipts on transit, maybe you won't get to doing some other important public service, or you have to borrow to do it. So that way the inefficiency might not be in transit, but it's still there.
Now consider if you were to raise taxes to make ends meet. Population now collectively has less money. So maybe they have to take out a 30-year mortgage instead of a 20-year one to pay off their house. So they're now hit with the inefficiency.
Resource allocation. Everyone has a discount rate, and everyone wants enough money to do everything they want to do. Transits included. Frankly, it makes very little difference who ends up eating the costs of borrowing, because ultimately you end up paying for it. Transits with crippling debts mean you'll have to raise the subsidy or fare. Governments with crippling debts mean you'll have to raise taxes. Tax rates through the roof means population will end up with crippling debts or a crappier standard of living. Someone has to pay for all this shit we use.
Logically, the best person to bond is the person with the lowest interest rates. That may well be the government.
How about this. You don't pay down the debt, you re-finance to the point where we are probably still paying on debt originally issued in 1904. Your subway is not still new -- cars and signals wear out, water gets in, tiles peel off the walls, power and communication systems age and become obsolete. (You don't maintain and renew, you keep the fare down) You don't build the subway all at once, you do so over 40 years, and by the end of that period the first parts are in bad shape.
So you have to start rebuilding, beginning with the IRT, but you do not do so fast enough, and you do so through debt, until you are broke and you have to stop. Then the system collapses.
So you start rebuilding. At first you use cash -- federal, state, local. Then you start borrowing instead, and guess what?
(Someone has to pay for all this shit we use. )
Thanks to the debt we will pay for it twice.
True they borrowed to make needed repairs to a long neglected infrastructure
NOT TRUE - The MTA borrowed tons of money of less then needed projects.
Yes we all like some of the extra's they put into many of the new station remodling jobs. If some of the money used for cosmetic improvements would have been funneled into cost saving improvements first, the MTA would not be so far under water. Underused token booth should have been phased out sooner, money should have been spent on improving back end and administrative and logistics operatiations(bloomberg spent $1 billion dollars last year on improving NYC infrastructure from buying salt spreaders that only spread the correct amount of salt and are GPS tracked(eliminating feild inspectors) to improving payrole systems) Platform camera's should have been rolled out line by line to reduce crew sizes especially at off peak periods.
A penn saved is 2 penny's earned when you are borrowing
Unfortunitly these cost saving improvements come with up front costs that will not help the mta in the short run
The MTA needs to focus it's capital budget on money saving technologies and priority one safety issues until it cuts down it's debt load and brings revenues closer to expenditures
Some examples
1) shorter trains at night with one man crews
1b) installing digital cameras and flat panel screens in car to reduce crew size to one system wide
1c) in car and bus cameras to reduce vandalism. If these cameras are monitored remotely and police begin to ticket offenders. There will both an increse in revenue and a decrease in maintance costs
2) Running the most effecient buses at non peak times. This may mean running the hybrids when they arrive on as many routes as possible at non peak hours, putting the artics away after peak periods, bringing some of the access-a-ride service in house and use the vans on some lines overnights.
3)Roll out GPS/wireless bus monitoring ASAP and phase out the traffic checkers and other most dispatchers (and yes the technology has increased tremdously, error correcting software and celluar or 802.11 wireless base stations can keep the bus from showing to be in the atlantic ocean)
Every penny counts. The mta is getting smarter utilizing it's assets such as prime advertising space to make some extra dollars and selling excess materials that it is paying to warehouse such as old tokens. The next phase may be in subway car and bus flat panel advertising screens.
So, it's the GEESE fault that the BookCookers took out TOO MUCH money?
There are people out there that buy weekly, and assuming they buy a card every week, 50 weeks of the year, that's a $150 a year fare hike. For monthly riders it's a scant 36 bucks.
I pay monthly, but I know people who pay weekly because:
- They don't have $70 up front
- They are scared of the length of the term (even after being offered free insurance)
- They are unsure wether they are going to use the card every day of the month.
Exactly, that's why I switched over from using weekly cards to monthly cards after the fare hike and hey we save $14 a month. Prior to the hike, it was just an extra $5 when you bought four weekly cards over a monthly so that's why I didn't worry so much.
Yes, it is clear: NYC residents would foot the bill for a project that benefits only non-residents.
The assertion that the presence of non-residents in the city does not benefit city residents is not supportable. The city and its suburbs create a synergy that benefits both. They need each other. Projects that benefit suburban commuters and encourage them to commute into the city benefit city residents in many ways. If nothing else, good suburban transit lines into the city benefit city residents by reducing traffic on city roads. Or should we build a wall and a moat around the city to keep the suburban riff-raff out?
COMMUTER TAX COMMUTER TAX COMMUTER TAX!
the pros of a commuter tax for NYC outweigh the cons by a huge margin and would at least help! repeal the repealing of the commuter tax!
Okay by me, if it's needed to pay for necessary improvements. Of course, fairness might demand that it apply to all commuters, regardless of which way they travel. One reason for the proposed third track on the LIRR Main Line is to facilitate reverse commuting. A commuter tax applied to New York City residents who work on Long Island could help fund such an improvement. It could also help pay for the HOV lane on the Long Island Expressway.
Projects that benefit suburban commuters and encourage them to commute into the city benefit city residents in many ways.
This notion is entirely unsupportable. Commuting decisions are individually based, and a commuter would not commute unless the commute makes sense to the commuter. Therefore, by definition, the commuter is in the city for himself; the commuter is not in the city to help the city.
Does the commuter generate a positive externality for the city? That's debatable. The city is bigger and has more economic activity because there are commuters. But on the other hand, if you shut down commuting, then more people will live in the city, and there will be more investment in the city. You can do the sums whichever way you want, but it's a zero sum game. The city will lose some jobs to suburban parks, the suburb will lose some residents to the city.
Do you really think that is true? I think the reverse is true; the affluent is affluent because they don't pay their fully allocated costs, while the poor are poor because they pay more than their share.
I did some research on this, but could not come up with a fast fact to either prove or disprove my point. To really demonstrate who's subsidizing whom, you really need to know the cost functions of all the services that the city provides, like sanitation, police, fire, and schools. Schools, for example, has a cost function that is actually pretty nonlinear: high fixed costs associated with the facilities, then only a modest incremental cost with each additional new student, and presumably it shows some economies of scale. Given that school districts are usually governed geographically, i.e. that schools exist even if the demand density is not there, the fixed cost of keeping schools open in low-density, affluent areas may well exceed the additional revenue that city rakes from the increased property values.
Take a case and point: a mansion on the outer reaches of Roslindale or Jamaica Plain might cost $4,000,000, and consume as much land as a city block. The city block might host some 12 three-deckers, which at $600,000 each makes a combined value of $7,200,000. So the city block may pay twice as much tax as the mansion. Now, the owner of the mansion may only have 2 kids, versus the 18 kids that live in the three-deckers, the cost of the 18 kids' education may be less than twice the cost of educating 2 kids, because of the density argument.
Businesses require relatively little expenditure and produce lots of taxes, so you use your power to overzone business tax "ratables." The poor, even the working poor, pay relatively little in taxes compared with the public services they consume, even if they tax the infrastructure less, even if the local property taxes are stacked against them. School taxes are the bulk of local taxes, and a family paying 4 percent of a 200,000 income in property taxes is a better deal than a family paying 10 percent of a $20,000 income.
So far this week every N I have boarded at Lexington Av has remained local past 34th St.
I am not complaining for myself because I get off at 34th St anyway, but I am just curious about the situation. This never happened when the W was running over the bridge. The MTA change its mind for the morning rush hour service?
If so it might be a (W) that came from the yard and has the wrong letters showing.
Could also be some track work in Brooklyn, I recall something about a GO that will last a couple of weeks or so. Didn't pay too much attention to it. The (N) Train doesn'e come *this* far west.
Speaking of WEST...
We have done this before, but maybe we can do it again...
1)What station on the subway system is the furthest west?
(Not counting, of course, SIRT)
Having gotten that one right:
2) What city is further west, Reno or Los Angeles.
and
3) Philadelphia is 40 degrees north of the equator. If you go due south until you are 40 degrees south of the equator, where (roughly) will you be?
Elias
Elias
I can answer no. 3 from recent experience, though not for the South American continent: New Zealand (around Christchurch, I think).
Could also be some track work in Brooklyn, I recall something about a GO that will last a couple of weeks or so. Didn't pay too much attention to it. The (N) Train doesn'e come *this* far west. "
I know it isn't a mislabeled W because even the conductor says that it is Brooklyn bound N train (besides Ws are R40s and this is a R68). No other announcements are made.
And of course people waiting on the express side of the platform at 34th for the N are totally bewildered.
Track work - during the rush hour (7:07 AM)? I don't think so.
WRONG!
The correct answer is Bay Ridge-95th Street.
HUMPH!
The Date Lion (sea lion?) squiggles and wiggles out there, so that they are on this side of the lion. But the next time I see her, Alaska!
: ) Elias
Your corny pal,
Fred
Her brand new jersey, of course.
Elias
Which states (besides Pennsylvania) are commonwealths?
Kentucky,Virginia and Massachusetts.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Your pal,
Fred
The geography is independent of the local time.
1. Bay Ridge 95th
2. Reno
3. Kinda sorta Santiago, Chile
Your pal,
Fred
Reno NV is about 100 MILES west of Los Angeles CA.
and, no Fred, the (N) does NOT go to those places.
Elias : )
I went to Reno once or twice when my squadron was taking its turn at NAAS Fallon.
All I remember about Reno was the long freight trains that rolled right through the middle of town on the heaviest rails that I had ever seen.
Elias
The station farthest west in Manhattan is Bowling Green.
Yes.
If an "N" train runs express across the bridge, it will arrive on the express track at Pacific.
-Then, it runs express to 36th.
-Then, it's supposed to run express to 59th. But at this time in the AM, there are still Lay-ups on the SB express track. So under normal conditions, N trains switch to the local from 36th to 59th, until all those R lay-ups are cleared.
-this switch is out of commision. This is the aforementioned trackwork. Thus, N trains cannot run express in bklyn.
-The bypass tracks only feed into the Pacific st express tracks. So the N can't use the bypass tracks.
-NYCT doesn't want to merge Southbound B/N/Q services at DeKalb southbound. Thus, the N train CANNOT use the manhattan bridge.
-If it's not going to use the bridge, it shouldn't run express in manhattan either.
What would cover the Astoria Branch?
Wouldn't you consider it better that the N run local to manhattan nights rather than run as a shuttle?
The present service plan is far better than this, giving 3 south brooklyn routes through service to Manhattan, and creating better service for EVERYONE who uses the broadway line.
BTW: The Q uses the bridge. What would use the tunnel?
Since the federal government doesn't provide operating subsidies to transit agencies anymore, not once red cent of NYCT's operating budget comes from Californians. It's easy to make suggestions when one doesn't have to pay for their implementation.
Oh, and Sea Beach fans should thank NYCT for the fact that the N isn't still running as a shuttle on weekends and overnight, as it did pre-February 22, instead of carping about how it doesn't run express all the time.
David
1. Ridership levels do not warrant 24-hour-a-day R service.
2. Local service for Sea Beach riders is better than shuttle service for Sea Beach riders.
3. Out-of-service R trains have to be stored somewhere. If there isn't enough room in the yards then they have to be stored on the mainline (granted, this is not ideal, as they are often subjected to vandalism). It makes more sense to store them on express tracks than on local tracks, since if they were stored on the local tracks overnight the local stations would have to be closed since no in-service trains could go through them. While (as in 1. above) there is not much riding along Fourth Avenue overnight, the few people who do use the line are entitled to service.
Keep the quarter. Suggest away, and if any of the suggestions make sense I'll be the first to say so.
David
David
David
If ti weren't for political considerations, not to mention the opinions of Californians, what would seem to serve the greatest number of New Yorkers well at night would be to run the full R, extend the Q to Astoria, terminate the G at Court Square, and terminate the N at 59th St Brooklyn.
The nearest NYCT yard is 38th Street, but if the cars are stored on the mainline my educated guess is that it's full at night or there's too much work train activity (which is the yard's main function) to store passenger trains there. Using Coney Island might involve too many deadheading miles, or maybe it's full, too.
David
Sorry, but that's not the case. Overnight R trains still only would operate at 3tph. So, if all trains were coming all the way from Jamaica, they would have to travel to 95th first, which could be done presently. There would STILL be the need for lay-ups on the 4th av exp track.
And N trains could run express in Manhattan on weekends too.
No. The R runs on weekends already.
Subway buffs should be sure to check it out!
www.nytimes.com
Subway centennial fever is heating up! This Sunday, the entire City Section of
The New York Times will be devoted to the subways - their almost-100 year
history, their quirks and what they mean to the city.
We wanted to give you a head's up! Here's to good reading and good riding!
==============================
NYPIRG Straphangers Campaign
One Click to a Better Commute - http://www.straphangers.org
Peace,
ANDEE
The lost (4) WoodlawnBowlingGreen
There are plans to build a new station (terminal).
Rector street is being torn up?!?
No.
where have I been living?!
Somewhere along the route of the (4) train?
Does the (1) need 3-minute headways north of 96th Street? If not, send some <5>s via the West Side Local, and run the 1 at whatever capacity Rector can handle. Why mess up the whole West Side when it's not neccessary.
Besides, the #1 at 18 TPH plus the <5> to Flatbush at about 6-7 TPH leaves only 6 TPH of room for the #2. SOMETHING has to get cut no matter what. Sending the Flatbush 5's to Utica wouldn't work; I really don't think Utica can turn 29 trains an hour [(4) + (5) + <5>] even with 12 of those 29 trains running through to New Lots (that's all that could fit with the #1 at 18 trains an hour). I'm not questioning you personally, or your information or sources, but I really don't think this is a good service plan.
I'm convinced that the inconveniences caused by closing the SF station for however long it takes to do the renovation (a few weeks, months, several years?) will far outweigh whatever marginal benefit is gotten by having a full-length platform.
Regular customers know that the ferry(ies) is at the south end of the platform and will crowd to the front anyway so as to have a shorter walk (or run, depending on timing) to the outgoing boat, and everyone will use the southern entrance adjacent to the terminal and get in one of the first cars they see. So irrespective of how many cars can be platformed, the regular customers almost all will simply use the first few cars anyway. And if for whatever reason they want to get to the north end of the train, they'll simply get in the first car and walk through the train. (Anyone who knows the station with any regularity knows that trains have a tendency to pull out at the instant ferry passengers begin pouring into the station, so if you see a train at the platform you run down the stairs like hell and get right in the first door, because chances are 90% that the door will close 5 seconds after you get in, and in the face of the guy behind you.)
And the tourists and occasional users - well I think they do a good enough job already, with multiple announcements as well as placards in each train, so they know to make way to the front of the train. And if they don't, they can get off at Rector and wait for the next one, now knowing where they've gotta be...
I think the whole thing is a troublemaking solution for something that's not really a problem to begin with...
If it is decided that the 1 will terminate at Rector St, then all customers bound for the ferry will get off at Rector, and most of them will try to exist at the south end of the station (since it's the closest.) People coming from the ferry or other downtown locations will make their way up to Rector and go in through the first entrance they see, the most southbound one. That exit, as I recall, has only 2 HEETs, and if you know anything about SF ridership, the overall numbers aren't that large but the passengers arrive in clusters - a bunch of mostly empty trains, then a couple packed to the rafters, then a bunch of empty ones, then packed, etc.
Now imagine all those people getting off a rush hour 1 and trying to make the boat, and all the people getting off the boat trying to catch the 1, all going through those 2 HEETs. It'll be a disaster.
If the post-9/11 pattern is used, then the 2 will run local 24/7 and there will be no express at all between Chambers and 14th, and this will affect far more customers than ever use SF.
The real problem is what to do with the $4.55 billion of FEMA money that can only be spent on transit in Lower Manhattan.
PATH to BB should be able to waste that money.
Arti
Yes but I don't think it would be such a waste. One through route would be better than two separate back-to-back terminals.
Arti
Also unfortunately many times more expensive. They had a certain amount of money, and they picked a project they could do with that amount of money. Not a great way to build transit.
And just what are you on! I think it is a stoopit idea. And I ain't on nuttin but my chair!
: )- Elias
"The New Jersey Association of Railroad Passengers (NJ-ARP), the state rail advocacy group founded in 1980, urges Governor James McGreevey of New Jersey, Governor George Pataki of New York and Mayor Michael Bloomberg of New York City to consider linking the downtown PATH line with the Lexington Avenue subway, in concert with the rebuilding of the former World Trade Center site in lower Manhattan. "
Arti
Not if they wanted any of the following relatively busy stations:
51st St (ranked 7)
Canal St (8)
Brooklyn Bridge (21)
23rd St (30)
33rd St (33)
Bleecker St (38)
28th St (54)
Astor Pl (56)
Spring St (123)
Also the 6 is better for transferring to/from the Broadway BMT and the 6th Av and Queens IND. I doubt a lot of people could be bothered to lose their seat to cram onto an express for one or two stops either.
Don't forget, it's PATH, already running under 6th avenue.
«Not if they wanted any of the following relatively busy stations: »
Anything below 33rd is faster served by PATH 6th Avenue, 2 real blocks from Park. Anything above, people would switch to express anyway.
Arti
Which is why some of us are a bit concerned that NYCT seems intent on converting a station on effectively straight trackage to one resembling Jamaica Center, which is of such poor terminal design that 3 tph of E's have to go to 179.
Elias
Are you still in Scheduling? If so, I'm sure that a lot of people here would have some very choice words for you.
In theory with the 2 relay tracks south of the station it would be possible for 4 trains to be in the station area at any one time: 1 in each station track and 1 in each relay track. With a double end switchman to pull the trains out there should be no problem.
And here we have a prime reason why supplement schedules never quite work - the people writing them are clueless. You've just asked for a minimum of 3 switchmen - one on each train in the relay and a third that just got off the n/b and is running for the s/b on the other side - which won't happen. You've obviously gotten rid of the rule that requires a train to be emptied (fumigated) before it enters the relay track - or else you've supplied seven people to help empty trains and given them the ability to drag the slow ones off - neither of which is likely to happen. Assuming that the signals here are set up in a similar way to other such places (I haven't operated here since June '01), if there are two trains in the relay positions and the next one to leave will be coming from 1 Track, the next s/b will not be able to enter Rector until the switch is clear.
After some observations at main Street, I'm not convinced, that scheduling would be the only blame.
Arti
Between 8 and 9 am there 15 E trains are scheduled to arrive at WTC and 17 1/9's are scheduled to arrive at South Ferry.
in theory with the 2 relay tracks south of the station it would be possible for 4 trains to be in the station area at any one time: 1 in each station track and 1 in each relay track. With a double end switchman to pull the trains out there should be no problem.
Your theory ignores the following. The terminating train's T/O will discharge the brakes and leave the cab. The switchman will have to wait 60 seconds for the train to recharge. The switchman will move the train approximately 600 feet and stop. At an average speed of 7.5 mph that's an additional 54 seconds and discharge the brakes. The uptown switchman will then charge the brakes for 60 seconds and move the back into Rector St in 54 seconds. Finally, the nortbound T/O will take over, recharge the brakes in another 60 seconds. The total time spent to reverse a single train will be: 288 seconds. That comes out to 12.5 tph not the 19 tph that they currently operate.
It will take 228 seconds for the train to move from downtown platform to the nortbound platform. Incoming train headway is 211 seconds. This means that a train will be in the relay track, when the following southbound train is trying to enter Rector St. This will cause the signal system to reduce the approaching train's speed to 5 mph and result in an additional delay of 45 seconds.
Having been an MTA/NYCT schedule maker/manager since 1976,
Having ridden the MTA/NYCT since before 1976, I'm not convinced that such a pedigree trumps cold logic.
I can attest to the accuracy of my projections.
The usual practice is to have an independant agency attest to projection accuracy. It's called peer review. Who else can attest to your prjection's accuracy?
At which point (114 seconds) the first track is clear again and the next train can follow in. This gives a capacity of over 30tph, not just 12tph.
Let's look at how the terminal would operate using a single time base. Let's further assume that the terminal is empty and start trying to reverse trains. There are only 17 tph between 8 and 9. However, this increases to 19 tph between 8:15 and 9:15. Let's try to shoot for 20 tph, to keep the numbers easy.
0 sec - Train #1 approaches the north side of the downtown platform at Rector
30 sec - Train #1 stops and opens doors at downtown platform
90 sec - Train #1 recharges brakes and starts for relay track
150 sec - Train #1 reaches relay track and discharges brakes
240 sec - Train #1 recharges brakes and proceeds to uptown platform
300 sec - Train #1 arrives on northbound platform and opens doors
360 sec - Train #1 recharges brakes and starts to move out of station
390 sec - Train #1 clears uptown station
180 sec - Train #2 aproaches the north side of the downtown platform at Rector; Train #1 is in relay track; approach speed limited to 5 mph
250 sec - Train #2 stops and opens doors at downtown platform
310 sec - Train #2 recharges brakes and waits for interlocking to clear
320 sec - interlocking clears and Train #2 proceeds to relay track
380 sec - Train #2 reaches relay track and discharges brakes
440 sec - Train #2 recharges brakes and proceeds to uptown platform
500 sec - Train #2 arrives on northbound platform and opens dors
560 sec - Train #2 recharges brakes and starts to move out of station
590 sec - Train #2 clears uptown station
360 sec - Train #3 approaches north side of the downtown platform at Rector; Train #2 is still in station; Train #3 must wait for Train #2 to reach relay track
380 sec - Train #3 starts moving into station; Train #2 is in relay track; approach speed limited to 5 mph
450 sec - Train #3 stops and opens doors at downtown platform
500 sec - Train #3 recharges brakes and waits for interlockint to clear
510 sec - interlocking clears Train #3 proceeds to relay track
570 sec - Train #3 reaches relay track and discharges brakes
630 sec - Train #3 recharges brakes and proceeds to uptown platform
690 sec - Train #3 arrives at uptown platform and opens doors
750 sec - Train #3 recharges brakes and starts to leave station
780 sec - Train #3 clears uptown station
540 sec - Train #4 approaches southbound station; Train #3 still in station; Train #4 must stop until Train #3 is on relay track
570 sec - Train #4 starts and proceeds into downtown station at 5 mph because Train #3 is on relay track
640 sec - Train #4 arrives at downtown platform and opens doors
690 sec - Train #4 recharges brakes and waits for interlocking to clear
700 sec - interlocking clears Train #4 proceeds to relay track
760 sec - Train #4 reaches relay track and discharges brakes
820 sec - Train #4 recharges brakes and proceeds to uptown platform
880 sec - Train #4 arrives at uptown platform and opens doors
940 sec - Train #4 recharges brakes and starts to leave station
970 sec - Train #4 clears uptown station
720 sec - Train #5 approaches north end of downtown platform; Train #4 still in station; Train #5 must wait until Train #4 is on relay track
760 sec - Train #5 starts and proceeds into downtown station ad 5 mph because Train #4 is on relay track...
This detailed analysis shows that the minimum headway is 190 seconds or just under 19 tph. It's also predicated that the tower will switch the relay interlocking within 12 seconds of a request (the switch movement itself will take 8 seconds). Clearly, 30 tph is out of the question and 19 tph is problematic.
Even at 18 tph, passengers will be subject to a crawl through Rector. The relay track and interlocking must be clear to eliminate that crawl. Referring back to train #1, the train will clear the interlocking at 300 seconds. This places the terminal's thoughput without delays in the 10-12 tph range.
And many of them are crush loaded further uptown, with extensive dwell times due to door holding. Reducing service below 20 tph is not an option.
You are correct.
What would happen if the T/O who would be taking the train back got on at Rector? I haven’t worked through all the timing logic and I’m sure it would take an extra T/O at Rector to handle the peak hour, but the train turning should be possible.
You still have to take at least one minute to clear the train of passengers before the relay. So, nothing is lost by using a switchman for moving from the station to the relay track.
Similarly, nothing is gained by using the northbound T/O for the relay. The only thing that will be gained would be a reduction of the dwell time in the northbound station from 60 to 30 seconds. The critical time is the time the trains spends on the relay track. Using a T/O instead of a switchman doesn't speed the reversing train off the relay track.
Why is there a switchman?
I used a switchman instead of the existing T/O's because one of the TA's very own schedule maker/planners with 28 years of experience assured us that this was the way it should be done.
In the above example, the most likely scenario to be implemented is:
arriving T/O dumps at Rector s/b
switchman charges south end while new T/O boards north end
switchman pulls train into relay, dumps
T/O charges north end, pulls out of relay and goes in service at Rector n/b
Also, having the two road T/Os do the relay means that someone else needs to be working the platform to clean out the trains before the relay. If a switchman takes the south end and the road T/O has to walk the length of the train to get to his new operating position, then he can clean out the train while walking - similar to what we currently do on the N at 86 St.
So a switchman can be required to exit the station and cross the street, but a T/O can't? Or if not, how does the switchman get to back to the S/B side?
That depends on the definition of a "3 min headway". Here's the definition the TA used the other day:
Arrive at 50th, southbound, at 5:05PM, the PM rush hour crunch in full swing.
5:10PM - a mostly empty #1, in service, rumbles by on the express track.
5:12PM - a mostly empty #9 blows two, and keeps going without stopping.
5:15PM - a completely packed #1 arrives. Nobody can get in.
5:20PM - I was one of the lucky ones who squeezed in on the next #1. The other thousand, or so, folks behind me were left to a fate unknown.
If this is the service pattern, will they run some 3 trains to Nereid?
The 5 then has to terminate at Flatbush, Utica or Atlantic. If the 5 ends at Atlantic, the 4 must end at Atlantic.
It seems they just don't want to run the 5 to Flatbush all day.
Why the past tense? The damn things are still running - I saw lots of them in Manchester this last couple of days.
I'm no expert, but I think cars are designed from their inception to have one of the 2 designs, and arent changed later on. I'm trying, but I can't think of one modern car that had pantograph gates converted to a chained off system.
Pantagraphs (note spelling--a pentagraph would only be used if you were summoning dark forces) were introduced in New York City with the BMT Standards, which began operating in 1915. Some 950 of these cars were in use until the 1960s. The IND system (over 1700 cars) all used pantagraphs, and most post-war equipment also had pantagraphs.
I don't know why the standard has been moving to chains from pantagraphs. I am not expert on the all the safety aspects, but my non-expert opinion is that pantagraphs should be safer in most circumstances because they usually fit automatically, are more rigid than chains, and usually cover more of the area between cars.
Hope this helps.
I guess my best source of info would be a historian or someone within the TA who knows about the design changes. Any idea where to find such a person?
If I see correctly where you are headed, the case may involve someone who willfully pushed open pantagraph gates to enter between cars. I'm not certain they are significantly easier to defeat than chains, though in a different manner.
Obviously it is not an attorney's job to look for safety features that protect persons other than his client, but my opinion is that pantographs are generally safer for people who are not attempting to break safety regulations, such as the blind (pantagraphed openings are less likely to be mistaken by a person with a blind stick for a door opening), those who slip, etc.
If I were an attorney representing someone who slipped and fell to the tracks because chains insufficiently restrained him as compared to pantagraphs, do you think I would be successful? You needn't answer that, of course; I'm just making a point.
The MTA fixed whatever problems they knew of when it would have made sense to do so, such as when ordering new rolling stock.
All cars have safety chains. Some cars were delivered without pantographs or intercar barrier springs, but these cars were retrofitted, as others have already stated, to minimize the possibility of the visually impaired mistaking the space between cars as a door opening.
The choice of intercar barrier springs over pantographs on new cars is mainly one of aesthetics, since the the chains can usually be stored out of sight at the open ends of the train and make it more visually pleasing. In other cases chains are required because end of car compression will not accomodate pantographs. However, neither pantographs nor intercar barrier springs will absolutely prevent someone being dragged along the platform by the train from falling into the space between cars.
The term pantograph refers to a particular design, incorporating rhombuses The design has the advantage that the gate's length can expand or contract.
The IRT cars used a such gates. However, the IRT design used single gates at each side. One end was permanently attached to the car and the other end locked into the adjoining car with a key.
I believe you are referring to the split gate design that was pioneered by the BRT in 1914. This design had the advantage of saving labor, when cars were coupled and uncoupled. The BRT's end doors were locked, so passengers entering or exiting cars via the split was never a problem.
The IND continued this design, starting in 1932. Passage between cars was permitted, unlike the BMT. However, there were additional chain gates in addition to these edge split gates. This chain gate defined the safe area at the end door. It can be seen in the above picture of a lead car as going across the door.
So far as I know, there such chain gates on all cars where passing between the cars is permitted. The above shows such chain gates on an R62.
These gates are quite heavy and require both a twist and a lift to disengage. They are not split, unlike the edge gates. If the gate were in place, then they would have prevented somebody from reaching the edge gate. Their weight and the complexity involved in removing them should have caused considerable delay, if person were also dragging an unwilling victim. However, if it were not in place or not properly secured, then....
However, most cars are now permanently coupled together. There is no longer any operational requirement for the inner chain gate to be able to be easily removed. Most trains now consist of two sets of permanently coupled cars. Moreover, the storm door between the two units is locked, so there isn't any reason for having the chain gate between them.
The R62's were originally single unit cars. Most were converted into permanently coupled units of 5 cars. It would have been very easy and inexpensive for the TA to have required a key to remove the inner chain gate. All they had to do was drill a hole in the steel bracket and slip a Master lock in it to prevent it from being turned to where it could be removed. I'd wager that whether they thought of doing that at that time (or should have thought of doing it at that time) is a more interesting question.
The only alternative to prevent such an incident would have been to have all storm doors locked. It's not a solution that I'd like to see implemented. However, your thesis is that a chain would also have prevented such an incident. I see no problem with making it more difficult to remove the inner chain.
I don't think so. If the perpetrator, opened the chain in anticipation of his escape, he could have done that lock or no lock. It does not take a heck of a lot to circumvent a pad lock, especially since all of these locks would have to have been keyed alike: it would be a simple matter to obtain a key.
Even if the chain was intact and properly latched, a client forced onto a train anticlimber against her struggling will is in no position to protect her balance or prevent herself from slipping under the chain.
The standard that the MTA has to defend to here is: Did they provide resonable protection, and as the story on the evolution of the R-40 designs demonstrate, they were quick to impliment resonable protections as they became aware of them.
They cannot stop kids from climbing up to the top of cars and getting killed. They cannot stop people rom jumping or pushing others in front of the trains, and they cannot stop people from dragging others off of the trains.
Elias
For example, locking end doors will hinder escape from a maniac or rapist in the train car or from a smoke/fire condition, and should only be done if the area between the cars is too unsafe to walk through, as on the 75 footers.
I see teenagers all the time jumping between cars on an R44. It makes it more difficult, but probably not impossible for an able-bodied criminal.
Just a bit of advice: If I were on the jury, I would conclude
that the TA has done a reasonable job of providing a safety
mechanism that prevents passengers from entering or exiting
between the cars, that mechanism being the combination of the
pantograph gates and the safety chains. Your analogy with a
front door lock of a building is flawed. The purpose of that
mechanism is to prevent reasonable, law-abiding people from
trying to make use of the inter-car space as an entrance/exit
and thereby cause an unsafe condition. It is not designed
to exclude criminals from the car nor to impede them from exiting.
That a clever and athletic criminal was able to make his escape
this way is certainly unfortunate and I sympathize with your
client. However, no matter how pissed I might be over service
or fare hikes, I would not conclude that the TA has been negligent,
unless you could show me a history of similar crimes utilizing
the pantograph gates that the TA was aware of and could have
reasonably corrected.
No you didn't.
The subject of this thread is pantograph gates.
A pantagraph is something else.
You could wind up being and "expert" witness and considering that our "expertise" comes as knowledge gained from our being railfans (as a hobby) rather than business experience or line of work, it probably would not be admissible.
No - I am not a lawyer - I am just using common sense.
AEM7
Well, I thought I was going to stay away from this thread, and I thought that Mr JFeigenbaum would not have gotten into a debate with my initial knee-jerk response anyway. Looks like he has more time on his hands than most lawyers. Also it is very unprofessional to discuss the specifics of a case while doing research.
Whatever the specifics of the case, and whatever the issues with pantograph gates, a court of law is not the place to debate the safety merits of a piece of transit equipment. The place to do it is an engineering test site (such as the one I am thinking of, in Western U.S.), with a team of engineers and scientists.
Subtalk community: the less said here, the better. Dave, you should purge this thread. For the sake of better transit and commonsense application of engineering standards, risk assessment methodologies, and cost-benefit analyses, I hope this case is quashed.
AEM7
What about the criminal justice system?
The greedy can't get damages from a criminal.
Of course. I should have realized that.
The R40's were built in 1968 by the St. Louis Car Company. They were designed with a 15-degree inward slant. The original idea of this design was to give the cars a futuristic look. However, the major issue with these cars is the fact that due to the slanted ends, it would be unsafe to pass between cars. The first solution was to install modest railings on the anticlimbers at the front end of the car, like in the photo below.
That really didn't work to well, and they couldn't possibly allow people to pass between cars, even with this modest change, so all sorts of additional hardware (railings, chains, and gates) were added, sacrificing appearance for safety.
In fact, they had to change the design in mid-order to increase safety. The result was some cars in the R40 order in their original form, with all that extra hardware attached, and others, like the one below, with a different front end design entirely.
The R40's were built in 1968 by the St. Louis Car Company. They were designed with a 15-degree inward slant. The original idea of this design was to give the cars a futuristic look. However, the major issue with these cars is the fact that due to the slanted ends, it would be unsafe to pass between cars. The first solution was to install modest railings on the anticlimbers at the front end of the car, like in the photo below.
That really didn't work to well, and they couldn't possibly allow people to pass between cars, even with this modest change, so all sorts of additional hardware (railings, chains, and gates) were added, sacrificing appearance for safety.
In fact, they had to change the design in mid-order to increase safety. The result was some cars in the R40 order in their original form, with all that extra hardware attached, and others, like the one below, with a different front end design entirely.
That, as I understand it, is the R40 story, taken from various discussions on the subject on this board, and other publications.
Once and for all, accidents happen. It's a terrible shame but they do. And in this case it wasn't even an accident. I sincerely hope this attorney loses his case.
Bill
Please keep in mind that this is Subtalk and not a courtroom. This is not final summation to a jury.
Yes, because when pantographs gates were designed, they said "Hey, this will make it easier for criminals to escape." You make it sound as if this were one of the design goals.
Second, if I saw that by holing on to my bag with a few dollars into it was going to put my life in jeopardy, I'd let go. One of the reasons I only use one strap of my backpack at a time, so I can ditch it easily. It was mentioned it was a pocketook, which is one strap and easily discarded.
I can't say I agree.
Let's say the woman was on the sidewalk. A criminal grabbed the purse and started running across the street. She tried to hold it and was pulled off the curb in front of two cars, both of the same make, both traveling the same speed, different model year. The later model stopped just before hitting the woman; it had anti-lock brakes. The driver of the earlier model hit the brakes, but his car skidded and ran the woman over.
Would the auto company, or the driver of the older car, be liable for failure to retrofit anti-lock brakes.
I should say not. The TA has taken reasonable efforts to protect resonable people from resonable hazards. I regret deeply the injuries to your client, but the truth is I see mangled and dead bodies and body parts all of the time. People simply cannot be protected from every hazzard, especially when the mal-intent of another is involved.
You client was injured by a perpetrator, and it matters not if he injured her with an automobile, a subway train or a frying pan.
Subway trains are different from railroad passenger cars, and as we have explained to each other on this forum many times, they cannot use the well protected inter-car connectors that you find on the LIRR or Amtrak. Subway cars must negeotiate sharper curves in tight spaces, and with large lateral shifts in motion that would tear a railroad diaphram apart. The guard chains used need to be loose enough to account for this motion, and this in turn requires there to be slack in the chain when the train is moving on a tangent track or is in a station. The perpetrator need not have moved the chains to have shoved your client off of the car, and make good his escape by leaping over the chains.
You did not tell us what division this event occured on, or what equipment was in use. Older stock has to be able to be broken into single or married pair sets. If you are between the sets, well things need to be more convient to the train crews who must break up and assemble the trains. Newer carsets in four or five car sets are a yard job to assemble or take apart, and can have more secure chains and such.
When the Good Lord is the conductor, he collects your ticket when he wills.
Br. Elias
The articulated cars used by the BMT solved completely solved this problem.
No. Only two/thirds of the problem.
The BMT locked the storm doors on the "D" types. They were not open for crossing between cars until the late 1950's. Besides, they had no edge gates of any kind.
The Multi's were longer and had a full width cab.
It might also be interesting to revisit the C-Types. They were not articulated but they did have better protection betwee cars.
Possibly the ugliest car class ever.
Shoot the attorney twice.
Yeah, like the MTA intentionally makes escape routes for criminals easy. Get a life. Oh that's right you already have one. Making money out of other peoples misfortune.
Suppose that safety measures were instituted so that, despite a criminal's devoted effort (and it *does* take quite some effort, not to mention premeditation of the crime and escape) the safety gates could not in any way be compromised. Say, the end doors are locked so travel between cars were impossible, or the gates are expanded so there's no way in hell anyone can get out of a tiny little tunnel created between the car end doors. This of course is assuming that such measures could be accomplished without bankrupting the MTA, or requiring the fares to be doubled (something which discriminates heavily against the economically disenfranchised).
Now suppose that something happens that requires passengers to quickly escape from the car or evacuate the train altogether - massive derailment or structural failure, fire, smoke condition, bomb (Madrid anyone?), maniac with a machete (SI Ferry, 1986 or so), perhaps a passenger alone in a subway car late at night with a rapist or murderer. The passenger(s) would be, despite their best and most valiant efforts, unable to escape and would die, dare I say quite preventably so (unless not having such a security measure in place caused a much greater danger, for example if there were a large gap between cars). So the MTA gets sued for trapping the passenger(s) helplessly.
On the other hand, if they have a system that allows passengers to escape in the event of emergency, yet is safe under normal operating conditions and cannot easily be disabled, then some *expletive deleted* can, with malice aforethought, disable it at great effort and use it to injure themself or another person. So the MTA gets sued for failing to provide a foolproof system.
And when the MTA is forced to pay out, guess who pays? US.
Basically, they're damned if they do, damned if they don't, unless it can be shown that:
1. It was widely known (or could have been reasonably deduced at the time without the benefit of 20/20 hindsight) that the existing system was deficient, AND
2. There was a much better system that was known about, that would provide better protection NOT ONLY in this specific case but for virtually every other imaginable scenario (such as the emergency escape scenarios I outlined above), to counteract the "damned if you do, damned if you don't" quagmire, AND
3. That said superior system could have been reasonably implemented, but was not because of neglect.
Only then could I, as a juror on this case, even consider voting to award money to the victim. However, many people will listen to any sob story and pay out whatever they ask, regardless of its source or the validity of the claim, and those are the type of jurors a defense attorney in a case like this would like to select at the voir dire.
For what it's worth, I'd have no qualms about taking the son of a *expletive deleted* who did this (after being convicted by a jury of his peers, of course) and drag him between train cars. In fact, if I were a T/O (which I'm not) I'd gladly volunteer, I'd *pay* for the opportunity to operate that train. And boy, I'd sleep mighty well that night. The only problem is, the MTA has much deeper pockets, so they're a more lucrative target for a civil case, despite the "damned if you do, damned if you don't" trap anyone trying to provide a product or service falls into.
Sorry to be blunt, but that's my take on the case. If you can present the case and prove points (1)-(3) above, I'd be more than glad to award damages, but I generally take a little more convincing than most :)
Best,
Jeremy
One of the key goals of tort law, and some would argue THE key goal, is "spreading the losses." It's the same reason we've got insurance companies.
Furthermore, the rules of negligence are frequently tailored such that the total cost to society is minimized. If a defendant has taken enough safety precautions to minimize expenses, then he's assumed to be a rational economic actor, and will not be found negligent. There's a whole school of thought on this and other related things, called law and economics. It suffices to say that it seeks to minimize unnecessary expenditures of "their own money."
Under the "shit happens and so do accidents" approach, nobody takes any safety precautions, injury rates rise, and the total societal cost - "their own money" - rises. It's a function of the legal system (and claims adjusters), not SubTalk, to strike a balance.
Finally, I think it's unnecessary to comment on the merits of the case "at bar," irresponsible to discuss the facts, and as always, inappropriate to launch personal attacks or direct ill will unconstructively.
Mark
There is also a Couch, White, Brenner, Howard & Feigenbaum in Albany, NY. I suspect that is also unconnected with the present thread.
this threads brings to mind the case of an attorney's investigator who infiltrated a Western Pacific shop claomong to be a fan while actually looking for safetey violations. Got all of us shut out for a while.
Without any hesatation I told him: "We call an ambulance!"
We hae had NO deliveries whatsoever in the past 20 years, probably a whole heck of a lot longer than that, and any thing that is planned would have already been taken to one of the bigger cities.
If somebody came off the road with an emergency pregnancy in progress, yes we would call the physician and the ambulance at once, and do the best we could. But we make no gaurantees.
Elias
All R models (except the R8A) up to the R38s used pantograph gates at both ends. The R40s-R42s have pantograph gates at the #1 ends, baloney springs at the #2 ends. The R44s and R46s have baloney springs only. The R62s and R62As have pantograph gates only. The R68s through R143s have baloney springs only. No cars ever had baloney springs replaced with pantograph gates, and vice-versa.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Bob Sklar
As long as nothing goes wrong to delay a train from entering single track territory, they can do it.
I hope they try this on Sunday if they get crush loads again.
Entertainment Center: 3520 just arrived; 3502 getting ready to leave; another train on layup track
meet at Cinnaminson
On the way back to Camden I got a grainy telephoto shot of CSX SW1001 #1127 and a PATCO train.
Buffalo on a nickel?
Last time nickels had an Indian on the obverse and a buffalo on the reverse, streetcars prowled the streets of Brooklyn.
Chuck Greene
Cooper St
just south of River Road, Camden
south of Route 73, Pennsauken
Cinnaminson
north of Delanco
I got off at Delanco and headed back. Same meets on the way back.
Cooper Street
River Road, Camden
Route 73/Pennsauken
Cinnaminson
just north of Delanco
That's as far as I've ridden with 15 minute headways.
The two meets in bold are the 15-minute headway meets; the other three are regular 30-minute headway meets.
Now that Congresswoman Sue Kelly has secured a commitment from the House Transportation Committee to authorize future talks of funding a rail link between Stewart Airport and New York City , the project can begin to take shape.
Stewart President Charles Seliga said yesterday development of the rail line will not be as complex as one might think. “You have about three-quarters of line in place already coming up the west side of the river and joint agreements between New Jersey Transit and Metro-North using the Jersey Transit tracks coming up to Port Jervis, increasing the capacity of the line between Port Jervis and Salisbury Mills and ultimately a right of way from Salisbury Mills, which is three miles from the airport, coming into the airport,” he said. The airport would have a train station, parking structure and lot, and rail yard for cleaning trains.
Metro-North has already begun preliminary studies into the rail service.
Seliga said if all the pieces come together, it is possible to have that rail service up and running in 2008
Even if more airlines will want to go to Stewart, I doubt that it has the capacity. Only one runway and, what, six gates?
But it is a nice airport. I used it a couple of times, several years back. What a difference from the controlled chaos of the big three metro airports...
Expanding the terminal to add more gates should be no big deal. Airports do that sort of thing quite frequently. As for having one runway, that should be no major obstacle unless Stewart gets really busy - actually, San Diego and London Gatwick both manage to handle a lot of traffic despite each having just one runway.
That doesn't mean, however, that single runway airports are a good idea. Gatwick's pretty much at capacity, which can be a serious problem when flights get delayed. Birmingham International suffers many of the same problems.
The problems I see are:
(1) it looks a long way from NYC.
(2) it's the wrong side of the Hudson, so presumably the train would go to Hoboken, not GCT.
Any reason why they chose the Harlem line over the Hudson Line?
Pisses me off to no effin' end that there are no damn spaceports.
Another that has appeareds every 5 years or so for the last 25 years is a NY State Thruway intercahnge in Tuxedo. Don't hold your breaeth.
Yeah, and that's not racist.
...evens the odds.
Where's muh prize??
I was at a college fair, and when it let out at 4, I didn't feel like going home (it was a kinda nice day), so I went to what I thought was the Amtrak West Side Line to hopefully photograph some Empire train. But I found that it wasn't the West Side Line, it was thie High Line! So I walked around it, and discovered something shocking:
The track leading up to the West Side Line comes right out of the ground!!! You can see it in the lower-left hand corner of this photo (due to the fence and the slope of the street, I couldn't get a better one).
Here's a close-up:
There is no portal or anything, it just rises right out of the asphalt(concrete?)
I walked around the curve of the High Line and I stumbled across LIRR's West Side Yard. Unfortunately there aren't too many good vantage points for photos, but I got lucky as a car was coming out of the yard and one of the gates was wide open.
This place is HUGE! It's like the Coney Island of the LIRR. Too bad the overpass has such a high concrete wall. Maybe next time I should get a stepladder or something...LOL.
Also, looking through a tiny crack in the wall, I saw what looked like a station platform, on the north side of the yard. Does anyone know what that is (or was)?
It's diagonally across 11th Ave/34th Street from the Javits Center. Maybe they could extend the LIRR to Javits instead of the #7?
=P !!!
#3 West End Jeff
....and the college fair... and the job fair... and.....
I think it's a permanent fixture there, brah!
Saturday,April 17 and Sunday,April 25 will find the IRT SMEE museum
cars(along with some companion redbirds)running on the mainline IRT
system.both trips will leave the grand central shuttle platform at
10:30 am each day and will cover as much of the IRT division as
possible.join us as we visit the Woodlawn,Dyre Ave,Broadway,Pelham Bay,and Brooklyn lines.A few suprise locations are planned as well,
along with photo stop and runbys.And incase you are curious,the old
in house terms for the R12 and R15 were "Queens Cars",the R17 was the
"Flat Bottom" and anything in the World's Fair paint scheme was a
"Bluebird".
Springtime on an R9
Saturday,May 22 and sunday,may 23 will find the museum R1/9 cars in
operation on the BMT and IND lines.Riding an R1/9 is an experience to
be enjoyed,traveling back to a time of wicker seats,overhead fans and
vintage advertisements.A mixture of express and local running,both
indoor and outside,is planned,along with photo stops and runbys.the special train will board passengers on the 59th st middle platform of
the A line at 10:30 am on saturday and sunday.
join the supporting of the March Of Dimes.fares are $40 per trip for
adults and $20 pertrip for children under 13.All tickets will only be
sold on the day of the trip.cash,check or money orders(made payable to
the March Of Dimes)are all accepted.Parts are also acceptable in exchange for ticket.
til next time
Question: What's the status of the R-17?
Looks like another $160 of my hard earned money going to a good cause.
I went on that 8/03 trip. In my opinion, the 2nd best MoD trip I've ever been on.
The first being the leap day Arnine romp. Incredible itinerary!
I'm hoping the 17 makes it through the yawnfest, and makes the MoD trips.
It was a tad lame before lunch. Too many trips on the Flushing line. The final run down Broadway was a blast and made the trip good, overall.
That was why I chased, instead of riding. Now if only my (then)good camera hadn't crapped out on me the night before, I would've had some excellent pics. I had to settle for good and semi-decent instead.
Here's a photo of the flyer, in all its glory:
til next time
Whoa, that's cool.
That sounds odd.
til next time
And guess which 4 subway stations will reopen on that same weekend? Hint: One of the stations will be powered by new rooftop solar panels. :-)
Just one part that confuses me a bit: "Parts are also acceptable in exchange for ticket". Whaddya mean?
Your pal,
Fred
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=681059
Da Hui
But if your are not interested in saving the lives of thousands of babies worldwide, then please don't B**ch about the fare. Sure it may be expensive, but we have a lot of fun while we did something for the good.
Da Hui
The money is for charity. It's all tax deductible.
My question is, does the number 6 line have three different north terminals during rush hours like the 5 line in Brooklyn?
The 8:51 AM, 9:08 AM, and 9:37 AM Southbound begin at 138th. For some stupid reason, the northbound schedule doesn't show these intervals. The public timetables are absolutely useless. I could understand cutting out some intervals to save space on the PRINTED timetables, but these are ONLINE, why the hell do they have to do this "Every 3-5 minutes until..." BS?
Though there were other weird oddities I've seen on R46s...
- A R46 R train with the signs set to "SHUTTLE" on the inside and "BAY RIDGE/95 ST" on the outside
- An out-of-service R or V train at Continental with the signs set to:
B | SHUTTLE
B | TO 36ST/BKLYN
And then today on the R I was on early in the afternoon, the signs were:
R | FOREST HILLS
R | 71 AV
R | via 63 ST (What the?!?!?!)
R | BROADWAY LCL
Was there some midday GO sending Rs up 63 St or was this a simple mistake on the part of the crew? I'm thinking it's the latter.
Though there was a Manhattanbound E train earlier this afternoon that was sent via 63 St...
Our own R36 #9346 has a photo that shows what I'm talking about. I wouldn't be surprised if it's the same car.
It's the best I can do Brian... bear with me:
No, it wasn't a signo:
When did that take place?
Of course, soon came the inevitable question: would it go via 53rd or 63rd? The C/R was sensible. Instead of keeping silent and antagonizing people, he announced that he didn't know, but "as soon as I know, you'll know."
It eventually went via 63rd, though not until the C/R was first told 53rd.
Not necesarily, it could have been problems somewhere along the 8th Ave so they re-routed the "E" along the "F" tracks. A very common practice.
Posted on:3/26/04 5:06:26 PM
Due to a police investigation at the Steinway St. Station the , , and trains are bypassing the Steinway St. Station in both directions.
This is a really dumb mistake. I didn't know the F runs loacl on the Queens Boulevard Line.
Robert
DUH!
Today we muse over a few more characters of the game.
As I constantly remind folks, railroaders are quite a diverse group of
people coming from a multitude of backgrounds. We are a true melting pot
having although at times it appears that we have melted down into a pile of
goo. The beautiful bride thinks that we're really all nothing but a weird
and strange bunch. Of course she married a railroader so what then does
that say about her?
Being that it has been awhile since I've done one of these little tributes
to some of the folks I've worked with over the years, I figured it was
about time to present a few more of them. So from the collection of some of
the most colorful and unusual people I've ever met anywhere comes a few
more for your reading pleasure. And of course, none of the names, railroads
or locations will be mentioned to protect the guilty.
We'll start out with those that are financially prudent. It is amazing just
how "thrifty" some railroaders can be. To observe their methods of
frugality you'd think these people were destitute. Now while I have worked
with a few guys that were flat broke, others had a few bucks but lived like
they were homeless. Still others have become quite successful financially,
but again, to look at them and listen to them talk; you'd believe they were
destitute. There are a few I've known over the years that actually buy
their clothes at those resale shops operated by Amvets, the Salvation Army
and the like.
One character I've known would never ever take a turn to buy coffee and
doughnuts. You'd work a job with two or three, or sometimes even four other
guys and it was sort of an unwritten rule that periodically somebody would
stop and pick up doughnuts and maybe coffee as well for the entire crew. A
dozen doughnuts and a few coffees are not exactly going to break the bank.
We'd all take turns usually picking up the goodies once a week or so.
Whenever it came to this guy's turn he would always have some idiotic
excuse on why he couldn't buy. And the worst part was this guy had more
money than all of the rest of us on the assignment put together. Probably
why, he never spent any of it. Rumor was that he had not only the first
dollar he ever made; he also had the first penny, nickel, dime and quarter
as well.
I worked with one guy that drove an expensive Lincoln. He loved that car
like a mother loves her children. He had a wood burning stove in his house
and was literally a slave to it. Every day at work he would scrounge up the
loose wood left behind on empty flatcars. This was lumber used to support,
secure and block loads and most of the time it was rough sawn hardwood
which will burn quite nicely. Every free moment this guy had would find him
climbing onto empty flats or into empty gons to gather up this wood and
toss it off onto the ground. He would then have me pull the engine up to
him and proceed to load it onto the catwalks of the engine. When we got
back out onto the switching lead he would then toss it all off the engine.
He worked his tail off gathering up this wood and on summer days would be
sweating like a pig in doing so.
One particularly hot summer day he really hit the "mother lode" with a huge
amount of scrap wood on a flatcar. He tossed it all off and when the engine
got up to him, proceeded to load it all up. The side of my engine looked
like a lumber delivery truck. He called up to me to give him a hand loading
it as there was so much of there. It was extremely hot and humid and he was
starting to struggle a bit to handle it all. I asked him if he was going to
let me have any of it and he immediately became defiant and proclaimed that
this was "his wood." I politely declined and just sat there watching him
struggle. My attitude was "your wood, your struggle."
He kept an electric chainsaw in the trunk of his car and at the end of the
day would pull it out and plug it into one of the outlets outside and
proceed to saw the larger pieces down. When this chore was complete he
would put the chainsaw away, open the sun roof on his Lincoln and then load
the wood through the sun roof and onto the floor of his car. He would pull
out and head for home with all this wood sticking out well above the roof
line of his car. Of course this had him looking like a real hillbilly.
I once commented to him about his being a slave to the wood burner. He
boasted that with the money he saved on heating bills. He claimed that not
having to spend big money to heat his house every winter, he could afford
that Lincoln. I commented to him that all he really had was a very high
priced lumber wagon. His feelings were truly hurt and he went off to pout.
Another tightwad I worked with never brought a lunch. When we would go to
dinner, he would just hang around watching us eat. He gave you that look
that a puppy trying to beg for food would give only he didn't sit up or
give paw. If you didn't finish something he would ask you for it. If you
refused his request he would try to guilt you into giving it to him by
commenting something like "Well all you're gonna do is toss it out!" I'd
always tell him that I was saving it for later.
Another character would conveniently forget his wallet several times a
week. When you went to dinner, he would comment that he was rushing out the
door for work and forgot to grab his wallet in his haste to get to work on
time. He was frequently late too. At one point I caught an extra job with
him every afternoon for five days straight and each and every one of those
nights he "forgot" his wallet. I guess he figured nobody would begin to
notice the pattern developing.
After the third straight night of his forgetfulness, the excuse began to
wear really thin. Nobody offered to buy him dinner but one guy did offer
him part of their leftover sandwich. He begrudgingly took it and spent the
rest of the evening complaining about how hungry he was and how tired he
was getting as he didn't have sufficient nourishment to sustain him for the
rest of the evening. Nobody cared and we suggested to him that maybe this
would be a good lesson for him. It would teach him to be certain that he
had his wallet with him whenever he departed his house for work.
Another time I worked with him I had to hear all about how his car broke
down and how he didn't have any money to fix it. He cried about his wife
having to drop him off at work and then come back out and pick him up in
the middle of the night when we were finished. So when we tied up, I
offered to drop him off at his house. He was quite grateful for the
gesture. When we arrived at his house he sees that his wife is out. He
suddenly remembers some party that was going on. He then asks if I could
wait a few minutes while he went in, cleaned up and changed and then asked
if I would take him to that party. When I asked who was watching his kids
he told me about some babysitter they hired. Needless to say, he didn't get
the ride to his party out of me.
This same guy routinely showed up for work with no gloves and work boots
that looked like they were never new. He cried poor constantly but we
always heard about concerts he attended and fancy parties he was supposedly
invited too. He was borrowing duct tape from me to tape up his boots that
were falling apart or the old gloves that he scrounged up from somewhere.
Another character was always driving an old beater car. He didn't believe
in spending decent money on reliable transportation. One day he was using
his own car while working and driving it from one end of the yard to the
other. He had some vision trouble but never wanted to wear his glasses. Of
course one of the reasons he didn't want to wear them was because they were
broken and taped together. As a result, they wouldn't stay on his face and
head properly making them quite uncomfortable so he usually didn't wear
them. He claimed he couldn't afford to get a new pair.
Anyway, he was driving through the yard in his car not seeing too clearly
as he was not wearing his glasses. He didn't see a switch stand and he
clobbered it. There was some damage to the exterior as a result of the
crash and it broke the driver's side seat. The seat itself was bent out of
shape and the back was twisted to one side. He flat out refused to pay to
get it fixed. Instead he used a pillow to fill in the space where the seat
was out of shape in order to allow him to sit up straight. This car was
running around with bald tires as well and more than once he was observed
slipping and sliding around on wet or snowy pavement.
Then there have been those that gave up cigarettes. I should clarify that,
they gave up buying cigarettes. They would tell you all about how they are
quitting smoking. Then all throughout the course of the trip they would bum
smokes from you. I worked with one guy that was hitting me up all night for
smokes. We got held at one particular spot and there was a grocery store
right there. This guy didn't bring a lunch and was getting hungry. He
offered to spring for some munchies and sodas if I were willing to make the
run over there. I made the run and while there and using his cash,
purchased him a couple of packs of smokes and also one for myself. Oddly
enough, he never mooched a smoke from me again.
Then there was the guy who really was tapped out financially. He landed a
job at the railroad I was working at during that time period. He had been
out of the rail industry for several years as he had been laid off from his
previous job and not called back as of that point in time. He had taken a
job far from his home just to remain employed somehow while trying to stay
close to his kids. He had previously been divorced and his ex-wife had
moved across the country. The job he took near where she was living while
providing him with enough to keep a roof over his head and child support
payments was doing little else for him.
When he got the new railroad job he was tight pressed financially. This job
took him several hundred miles away from where he had been living for the
past few years. He could not afford to stay in a motel of any type. So he
resorted to living in his truck in the parking lot of the yard. He stayed
in that truck for months. In fact it seems that truck became a fixture in
the parking lot. I dubbed it "the Hilton" I had used his first name in the
Hilton name as well but I have omitted it to protect his identity. He used
to get a kick out of me calling it that and the name stuck. Everybody began
calling it that. I even took a lumber crayon and wrote in on the front and
rear of the truck. He thought it was hysterical and left it there never
once attempting to clean it off. He told me the last time I saw him a few
years ago that he still has that old truck out on his farm and you can
still see remnants of my artwork.
I will give this guy credit though, when he got his first paycheck from the
railroad he went to the store and picked up some toys for his youngest
child and some other gifts for his older one, then had them shipped back to
their home. Now that's integrity.
One guy I worked with was notorious for inviting you to stop off for a
drink after work. Only problem was he frequently did not have any money to
be able to buy a round or two. You'd wind up picking up his tab as well as
yours. Nonetheless, he was always willing to offer to buy you one, with
your money of course. On more than one occasion he bought everybody a drink
with somebody else's change that was sitting on the bar, while that guy was
in the restroom.
We'll close this lesson out with a guy that had a serious drinking problem.
The hell you say, a railroader with a drinking problem? Hard to believe I
know but yes kids it's true. This guy was nailed seemingly countless times
for operating a motor vehicle under the influence. And most all of those
offenses occurred while he was already under suspension from a previous
conviction. With his last offense the judge told him that he would never be
issued a license of any type again, ever. It seems that he repeated the
offense so many times and did so while driving on that revoked license that
it was decided that he should never be allowed to have driving privileges
again.
Anyhow, his wife became fed up with his illegal activities and having to
frequently throw some bail to spring him from the slammer. The drinking
also became unbearable and she tossed him out. Getting thrown out; a common
affliction that affects many railroaders. He wouldn't spend the money to
stay in a hotel or boarding house, so he stayed in the Car Inspector's
shanty in the yard. This facility had a large locker room and he slept in
there on one of the benches. He used the shower facilities there to clean
up. He would catch a city bus and go to a Laundromat to wash his clothes.
He would do all of his dinning at a nearby coffee shop. This practice went
on for months before his wife finally took him back home.
To this day he still commutes back and forth using public transportation
and can only mark up to jobs that work with their schedules. Oh yes, he's
too cheap to take a taxi to or from work. With all the money he is saving
by no longer owning his own car and paying maintenance and insurance, you'd
think he'd spring for a cab once in awhile.
I guess it's more efficient for him to take the longer, slower way home.
"Take the long way home."
And so it goes.
Tuch
Hot Times on the High Iron, ©2004 by JD Santucci
CHICAGO - A commuter train leaving a downtown station at the end of the morning rush hour collided with a locomotive on Friday. Eighteen people were injured, none seriously.
The two Metra trains bumped when a locomotive with no cars attached backed into the path of the commuter train at a switching point at the Ogilvie Transportation Center, one of the city's main train stations.
"They bumped very gently," said Deputy Fire Chief Thomas Donnellan. "It was just a slight nudge."
The passenger train, carrying 50 people and headed for the northwestern suburb of Crystal Lake, was going 5 mph or less, according to Metra.
"There was a loud crash and coffee went flying and people were falling over, and it got dark," said Gerald Karr, who was on the train with his wife and daughter.
Authorities said the injuries were primarily bumps and bruises, though four people were carried from the train on stretchers, two with neck braces.
The reason for the track mix-up was not immediately known. Metra said both trains' engineers and the station dispatcher underwent drug testing and were removed from duty pending an internal investigation.
The engineer of the passenger train has three years' experience operating freight trains but is new to commuter trains and had a supervisor aboard, said Metra spokeswoman Judy Pardonnet. She said the engineer properly hit the emergency brake when he saw the locomotive angling toward his track.
Metra has been involved in four deadly accidents in the past five weeks in which people crossing Metra tracks were struck by trains. In October, a Metra train carrying 350 people derailed, causing mostly minor injuries.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So in conclusion, if there was a derailment, it would be labeled as low-speed?
Or in other words; NYC trains don't go very fast so if there was a derailment, it wouldn't be labeled a high-speed derailment. Thus there is no such thing to even talk about.
Why did he do that?
Reports said he also made a "rolling stop" at 125 St/Harlem.
Or:
C2H5OH
The boy (T/O) F#@ked up big time, probly knew he was going to get canned and jailed anyway, maybe, just maybe, his nip outside might account for the ETOH in his blood.
But any ETOH while on duty is a big-time violation. He coulda save lotsa people lotsa trouble if instead of going to the deli, he just went and stood with on foot on the third rail, and the other one on the running rail.
Elais
Is that the same as Acetyl Alcohol?
Also this is affecting our Daughter since she does not know why her mother is not home. She has Altissima and with her mother not being home she has started the degrees backword in school. She is acting like she did when she started school last March when she turned 3.
So Just say a small pray for the both of them for a fast home coming for them.
Robert
P.S. I know this is Off Topice, but you guys have been there in the passed with hard time with other so I figure this is something inportent.
Sincerely,
Dan Kaplan (R142A)
Regards,
Jimmy "Arrow III"
B Bonnici
(4) WoodlawnBowlingGreen
I hope your wife's problem is fixed soon -- it is unlikely to last very long, though; wounds that re-open are not common but not very rare either, so they just need to fix it up and it'll work. I understand that it could feel like eternity for you, and I hope that you are able to get through it.
The best thing you can do for the kids is to tell them what's going on. Kids, like ordinary people, are really very robust and understanding if you are honest with them and reason with them. Maybe you have reasons for not taking them to visit with your wife but I certainly remember as a young kid, when my mom was hospitalized, I always had visitation rights, and I was good about it too -- my dad would remove me after like 15 mins, and I seemed to understand at the time that mom couldn't play with me like she normally did.
What is Altissima?
AEM7
People with it are not dumd but can be very smart. In some casses kibs can come out of it all together down the road and lead a nomel life.
Robert
It sounds as if you mean autism.
Hope your wife gets better soon.
RonInBayside might have a more expert view on the matter, and he might be more optimistic.
AEM7
By the way, AEM-7, your advice to Robert a couple of posts back was very good. Bravo for you.
Best wishes for a speedy recovery for the wife and best of luck for the future.
He will contantly bring up things that happened 10 and 15 years ago, over and over, which is an indication that he has Asperger's. He means well, carries no grudges, and has great difficulty dealing with women.
He does work as a Cashier and interacts with the visitors very well. He wants desperately to be a motorman, but alas, that's not likely to happen.
It's my understanding that Asperger's Syndrome seems to affect males only, but I may be wrong.
My best to Robert and the family, and I will add them to my prayer list.
As I am typing this I am holding my son tring to get him to sleep. He just drank a 6oz bottle and is ready for bed. It look like my wife should be home on Monday sometime, so things are starting to look up.
Well thanks for all the good wishes you guy have givin to me and my family over the last few days. I might noy know all of you be name and fasces, but I could say you are all great and may be some day I will meet up with some of you, I do work for the TA.
Well thanks again, I got to go and put Benny to bed. I guess he is a ittle to yong to be a railfan.
Robert (E-N T/O)
First of all, best wishes for a speedy recovery for your wife.
My son also is considered high-functioning autistic. He is going to be 4 next month, and has made tremendous progress during the last 4 months or so using a relatively new therapy called A.B.A. Where 6 months ago, he seemed content to just let the world go by he now talks up a storm and even asks me to take him places (he's really getting into trains now!!). He still has a long road ahead, but it has gotten much shorter recently.
A.B.A. works best on children who are high functioning already and also works best when it is done intensively -- one-on-one, rather than in a group setting, and also for long periods (2 hours, rather than a half-hour). Some schools will say they give ABA, but only do a half hour group session.
Where do you live? If you live in New York State, your local school district should pay for this treatment -- but many will try not to. I think the situation is the same in New Jersey.
Don't forget to get some sleep yourself!!!
CG
The latest theories (as of 1999, anyway, which was when I last had academic contact with this field) is to think of autism, aspergers, and other forms of socialization difficulties as different degrees of the same continuum. For example, you have retarded people, stupid people, then learning-disabled people; then you have normal people, and exceptionally bright people. It's all the same trait, except that some people have more intelligence, and others have less. IQ isn't a perfect measure but it is a proxy for degrees of intelligence. The thought at the time was that autism is really a label attached to people with a low "socialization IQ", sometimes accompanied by learning disabilities; Asperger's is generally considered higher functioning.
But either way, if the learning disability isn't considered a problem (or doesn't exist), all people of the autistic spectrum can and will function normally in society, even if no intervention occurred. I can think of about 4 people that I know who have autistic-spectrum type behaviours; one is doing a Ph.D., another just graduated from MIT, and one of them current work for a large transit authority in a fairly senior management position. They can be difficult to get to know at first, but once you win their trust and they understand that you're not a threat to their world, they're actually very loyal friends.
Again, I think that unless the learning disability is causing a problem, there is really no need to "come out of" being autistic spectrum. That's as stupid as saying that exceptionally intelligent kids need intervention to appear more stupid, so they can fit in with normal middle schoolers and behave "normally".
By the way even the lower-functioning autistic-spectrum people find good jobs and get on with life just fine. One case study I have read said that autistic-spectrum people work extremely well in QC type work. They test, and they test with a passion, and they really want to make sure every component that pass through their hands will be exactly matching the specification. They also do well in software testing. Everything must work exactly as they see it. Austistic-spectrum people have to learn some social skills, but only need just enough to survive the working world -- then they'll excel if they're given the right thing to do.
Hell, sometimes I think that I am an undiagnosed autistic-spectrum person. I certainly relate better to machines than I do to people. Who the hell else would love trains like they do a pet dog?
AEM7
Let's reword this slightly:
For example, you have New York City Council members, retarded people, stupid people, then learning-disabled people; then you have normal people, and exceptionally bright people.
subfan
I must disagree. The loneliness that results from being wired this way can really eat you up to the point where you wonder just what you're living for. Trust me; I know.
Perhaps you can explain too? My understanding of autistic-spectrum disorders, admittedly academic, would seem to suggest that these people do not feel lonely from being wired up in this way; the precise point is that some of them don't even see why social interaction is necessary -- some consider it a stress, others do it just to please the other non-autistic people around them. Most would rather be repairing their bicycle, writing down their train numbers, or restoring that old beat up car by painting it again and again and making it shiny by polishing it three times every day. Sort of like how I'm obsessed with collecting CPU's. How I know that I'm not too far down the autistic-spectrum is that I don't feel entirely happy just polishing my CPU's; I do feel the need for social interaction. Severe (and clinical) cases, do not seem to. If you have any direct or indirect insight please feel free to share. I'm interested, and I am learning.
He's in his 40s now, married, with a stable job, doing much better. Professional help and hard work on his part made a difference.
This is kind of interesting. It has always been difficult for me to understand why people have the need to be accepted by their peer groups, because I felt no such need and went through middle and high school singing my own tune. I have always been very outgoing, but I am also always ready to get bored and leave. Sounds like this chap is the polar opposite of my personality; he's very shy, inwards looking and awkaurd, but he really didn't like singing his own tune.
Also of interest is that I'd known so-called "social butterflies" that deep down really hate the fact that their friends are always coming to them with problems, and they wish the people would just fuck off but they just can't bring themselves to say it.
Perhaps the secret in all this lays with being comfortable with your own personality type, realizing that it's an asset, and 'act your part', as it were. Of course, hard work can change things, especially if you really want to change, but sometimes I think no change can be for the better.
Unfortunately his behavior was awkward and he constantly missed social cues. The result was that other kids tortured him, taunted him, beat him, ridiculed him, etc.
The only time we wound up that autistic-spectrum kid that went to college with me was when we were in Washington D.C., we took him to a bar, got him drunk, and then took him to my friend's house in Maryland. Oh and he developed a nosebleed (because the weather was dry) so we made up this story that he got into a barfight. All the time he was completely freaked out as we took him riding WMATA to Shady Grove and then drove for 30 mins, all because this deviated from his routine of "going back to the hotel after 9pm, then going to bed". I asked him about it a year and a half later, and he finally confessed that was the most fun he's ever had in a long while.
AEM7
The basic problem keeping him off the platform is the fear that he might "go off" when confronted by a problem visitor (we do get them once in a while).
Many years ago, when we collected fares on the cars, I was working as a Conductor and making my lift. I collected an adult fare from a lady who had a small child with long blond hair that appeared to be over 3 (childs fare started at 4 years of age). I inquired "How old is the little girl?" The lady replied (rather haughtly) "HE is Four." I replied "I will need a child's fare for him.", thinking to myself "HE needs a haircut!". I collected the half fare and rang it up.
I shudder to thing how our Aspergers cashier would have handled it.
We no longer collect cash fare on the cars. He does have occaisional problems collecting the proper admission for large groups, but does have the presence of mind to ask what to do.
The one thing we do have to watch is his habit of bothering women that accompany active members to the Museum. Usually, the women are warned about him and tend to avoid him like the plague.
One of our active members who has a rather dry sense of humor has noted that "Aspergers is a strange and wondeful thing."
Chuck Greene
For Stevie (My Hubby) and I our prayers are definalty with you and your family. Sunshine
Thanks
Robert
Thoughts & Strength 4 you and your loved ones!
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
Elias
"Altissima" may well be "autism".
Robert
-Chris
Sure its important! :) While this is a rail forum, people HAVE posted topics about family matters and many of us have been able to offer guidance. Anyway, I hope both of those family members can get through this.
Robert: This is the kind of off-topic post that no one objects too. Our prayers are with you and your family and welcome to little Benjamin.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Thou shalt stay strong, thou shalt feel well, thou shalt get well, thou shalt PULL THROUGH!
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
P.S.: I hope all is forgiven for my lack of attention in the initial post. I am sorry.
Why would you have to feel terrible? So anybody who is incapable of posting a prayer should feel terrible?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Technically, it is since it has nothing to do with transit. On a more personal level, as OnTheJuice, is sure is given one of the posters' is apparently in peril. Realistically, you have plenty of posters who probably don't even know this person intimately to even know what he's talking about.
One day I will make it to a MOD trip and I will wear my Unform and Radio so you guys will see me. I hope to make it to one later in the year since as of now I have no more days off that I could talk. Maybe some of you can meet up with me on my jobs and do a trip with me, just an Idear.
Well any way, Thanks Again to all.
Robert
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
When I have more time, I will email you. Best wishes to your wife for a full recovery, God bless her.
Every day I commute on the line, but picture taking at 7AM is a bit hard.
I had a photo at Fox Chase station from a year ago, but I can't find it. I hope you'll settle for this.
The PMM will be a little bigger than an I-pod hat can be given to MNRR and LIRR conductors and instead of printing tickets forever. Special e Railroad Metrocards can be issued Silver and Gold or Pay Per Ride Metrocards can be used. The customer would hand the Asst. Conductor the metrocard and he would slide in across the machine and the ticket marking the zones will print out where the conductor will put it on the seat. The railroad edition (silver and gold) metrocards will be programmed with the zones the people will be traveling through. While with the pay per ride metrocards they will tell the conductor the destination and he will punch it in HL-2-4 (Harlem Line Zones 2-4) and then the right amount will be deducted. I can see the system being streamlined, a pay per ride metrocard, can get you access not only to the Subway and Bus system, but to the Railroads. The Silver and Metrocards will be issued at Ticket Machines or pay per ride metrocards, don't require no special printing, meaning CHEAPER to produce. No more paper tickets! At the terminal the conductor would plug in his PMM into a terminal where an accurate totaling can be done. This can be done to properly see how many people use the trains, and more.
AEM7
The British Rail one: Think 1990s technology. Half of that thing's volume is the battery, since they were using sealed lead acids and they needed to be powered on for the entire day and had to be low cost. Then the thing has to contain a paper roll. Then the thing had to have a keypad that is big enough to print out any type of British Rail ticket, nationwide. I think they did a good design job, but it was still bulky. Better for that type of equipment to stay on board the train instead of having the conductor cart it on and off. Obviously the conductor has to cart it down the train and issue tickets, but it should be something that's normally kept in the train.
The recent Amtrak ones have been much smaller, so you're right about the size, but the technology has only recently got there.
Or they could put entry and exit turnstiles in stations.
Hush up!
Hush up!
How can they not accept my clean, crisp dollars, yet love my dollars thats been to Iraq.
-Cards could be purchased from TVMs at any SEPTA RR station (that's right, SEPTA, get your lazy asses out there and start developing a TVM).
-At the end of each fare zone, conductors could scan the cards (SEPTA conductors check tickets at each fare zone anyway.)
-In the Downtown stations, both in the downtown subway and "loop" (University City, 30th St., Suburban Station/Penn Center, Market East, Temple, N. Philadelphia, North Broad, Wayne Jct.) and as well as at all stations on the airport line (there would be no conductors scanning cards on airport trains), there would be turnstiles, at which you must swipe to enter and exit, this way, anyone traveling within the downtown fare zone could use the lines like a rapid transit line, instead of having to buy tickets, get them clipped, etc.
-Once out of the downtown transit zone, all conductors would start scanning cards.
-With this fare system, all passengers traveling on one rail line in only one zone would basically get a free ride (which happens now anyway).
Tell me... think it would work, guys?
But why Silver and Gold? We already have a MetroCard Gold, so the unlimited would have to be MetroCard Platinum or something.
PRR 30th Street Station, now Amtrak and SEPTA
PRR Suburban Station, now SEPTA
Reading North Broad Station, no longer a station
are there cameras on those r-142's and 143's?
What was its route?
www.forgotten-ny.com
But thanks for bringing that up. Maybe somebody will believe me now.
But thanks for bringing that up. Maybe somebody will believe me now.
Click here 1st
Click here 2nd
Click here 3rd
Click here 4th
Click here 5th
Then follow posts.
The first map claims to be from EARLY 1985. It still contains the double letters. In this pattern, The (CC) is the non-rush hour/night shuttle line from Broad Channel to Rockaway Park. The (A) is the Night round Robin.
The Second map is from later that year. Double letters are gone, and the CC AND A round robin Lines are both called "H".
Interestingly, There are bullets along the Rockaway Park Branch for the C, H and A trains.
I believe that is an error. I had that on one of my maps as well from 1980-something. It also lists them all as express stops, which they most certainly are not.
FWIW I never saw that brochure, either.
The A was an unbearable local in Brooklyn at those hours. Express service was a premium... pay additional fare to take the Train to the Plane.
Not really. Rush hour express service had been the norm for over 40 years before the expansion in 12/88. It's only unbearable to those who were not used to it.
Transferring the J, or L trains?
I can't imagine taking that ride.
Unbearable was an opinion of mine, I never actually rode it.
Weekdays, you took the C/CC/H to Rockaway Blvd or Euclid Ave and x-ferred to the A.
All Local stops (duh).
Photo taken at West 4th-Washington Sq on 3/27/04
NO MORE (S)!
@
And...
Photo taken at 34th St-Penn Sta (IND 8th Av)
What the hell is AMTRACK?
I can see how the MTA, being such a vast agency, has a lot of things to take care of, but something as simple as taking a piece of paper out of a plexiglas(plastic, whatever) box or placing a sticker over AMTRACK seems so hard. I know there's plenty more of this stuff out there.(All photos taken by me, SINY_R143)
-Chris
-Chris
Bill "Newkirk"
PS I hope that i didnt make anyone mad that is not what i was trying to say
(Cue music)
You are my sunshine, my only sunshine ...
When skies are grey.
Thanks for the link, since I don't frequent SubTalk, as much as I have
in the past. If the members of this board respond to these preposterous posts, that is there God given right. So if they
see a post that's initiated with this nincompoop, and they are numskulled enough to answer to these circumambages, then who is
the imbecile, the poster or the postee? Just MNSHO, >GG<
8 > ) ~ Sparky
PS-Sunshine say hi to the muchkins & Stevie.
The only bad part of what is going on here now is all the fluff that you have to wade thru just to get to something of value. I find it a chore vs. a pleasure just to scan thru the titles looking for something to read & contribute to :-(
Fortunately I've found a couple of other mass transit web site that are less of a chore AND I've built up a very large group of friends who I exchange e-mail with. (you could talk to Sparky about this).
In one article, Michael Warren, first general manager of TTC, looks back at what might have been if money and politics hadn't been a problem.
What Might Have Been
Then there was an article about Ted Wickson, retired TTC archivist, and his enthusiasm for transit.
Ted Wickson
There was an article looking back on the architecture and design of the subway stations.
Architecture & Design
There was an article describing the actual open cut construction of the Toronto subway.
Open Cut Construction
And finally, one reporter presents several anecdotes of what it's like to ride the subway.
Tales of Riding the Subway
P.S. notice anything different?
Well one thing unusual is that someone seems to have read an article I posted. Another thing different is that your response was more than a single sentence and amazingly not a joke. Is that what's different??
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
This absolutely blows for me as I like to pick up the (4) at 167th following Yankee games in an attempt to beat the insanely long lines at fare control. Three more streets shouldn't be horrible, I suppose.
On Saturday I was in Strasburg on Saturday riding on and looking at the real thing.
The minimum radius for a 60' B division car is 125'. For 75' cars the minimum is 145'. I have no data for 67' cars.
Single unit = 135 foot radius
2 locos coupled together = 175' radius
1 loco coupled to an 85' passenger car = 240' radius
(source: DE30AC/DM30AC Operator Manual, Page 2-5)
Btw, although IRT cars are limited to 90' coupled, they can
get around a much tighter radius, perhaps as low as 80',
as singles. PATH cars are also designed for very tight,
almost streetcar-like curves.
For a single-unit subway car, there are a few mechanical factors
which limit curve radius, or in other words, the maximum angle
the truck can make with the body. They are: the angular length
of the side bearing plates on the body (i.e. when will the body no
longer be resting on the side bearings), the amount of slack in
the wiring and hoses between the body and the truck, and any
under-car equipment that might get struck by a projecting part
of the truck (e.g. the brake cylinder or slack adjuster).
Coupled, we add the additional constraint of how far the drawhead
can swing side to side on the carrier, and the maximum face
angle of the coupler head itself.
The tightest curve is the South Ferry loop at 111 ft. City Hall is 147 feet. The tightest curve for Div B design is 150 feet.
Also the 147.25 ft.rad.curve at City Hall Loop - that's the left hand curve just as you enter the station.
wayne
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
I'd be interested to know what you say and do that your poodle doesn't like.
You removing me from your killfile is nice - especially for you.
This sounds kind of egomanical, but it's actually true. Cripes.
John
We used to have that problem with fish oil pills, but when my dog figured he could chew those as well, he ate that too.
If your poodle is like most, he lets you understand who's really the boss in the house...
Instead of kill-filing everyone that annoys you (and then telling the world about it), set your viewing preferences to “by threads, reversed”.
You can then see the structure of a discussion and evaluate whether you want to read it, or even selected postings based on your likings/dislikings of the posters.
Personally, there are some people whose posts I read anyway because I find them amusing/interesting/educational:
Train Dude: Steven knows what he’s talking about, though sometimes he has a short fuse.
SelkirkTMO: Kevin has my ironic sense of humor. Plus he knows about ancient British radio comedies so he can’t be all bad!
RailBlue: James has an encyclopaedic knowledge of British Railways (both with and without the capitalization) that I’m envious of. One of these days, I’m going back to Birmingham to meet him!
Stephen Baumann/RonInBayside: Both of these gentlemen challenge us to think and act. Yes, they get into bickering matches with others, but they have commitment to their ideas: Stephen’s a great statistician, and Ron’s dedication to public input into decision-making. You just need to know when to say “enough is enough” when they get into their p***ing contests and leave them alone. They’ll eventually kiss and make up until next time.
Jersey Mike: Mike likes signals and switches (though only pneumatic ones). Since one of my main interests in railways is networking, I want to know where all the turnouts go and why, so we are just about on the same wavelength.
Broadway Junction/Bombadier: Dunno, but I find their posts generally interesting. Also, I have poked fun at Dante in the past, which is unfair because I haven’t met him, but he has taken it like a trooper and responded in kind.
Just my thoughts. I apologize in advance to anyone I might have offended.
Seriously, nil desperandum. Don’t ignore someone because they criticise what you say. See if you can learn from it. If not, walk away. You’re the better man for it!
Hmm, interesting review. I have noticed that Ron has recently not been bickering so much (or perhaps I just don't read this board as much). Maybe it's because everything that is worth bickering about has been bickered already, and we have all agreed that in fact all we want is better transit and more cost-effective transit, and it really doesn't matter how we pay for it.
Baumann, like any other great statistician, has the tendency to look at performance measures like they are random variables. Sometimes they are not. But I respect Baumann for always taking the time and trouble to be digging up the numbers that prove either something or nothing at all. I think he and I would make a great team, I will provide the logic, and Baumann the statistical analyses.
AEM7
"Stephen Baumann/RonInBayside: Both of these gentlemen challenge us to think and act. Yes, they get into bickering matches with others, but they have commitment to their ideas: Stephen’s a great statistician, and Ron’s dedication to public input into decision-making. You just need to know when to say “enough is enough” when they get into their p***ing contests and leave them alone. They’ll eventually kiss and make up until next time."
I want to state fo the record that I have not kissed anyone related to Subtalk, and refuse to do so unless she is attractive, intelligent and my wife offers approval first!
:0)
The only kind of kiss you deserve is the kiss of death.
If you want me to admire and bless something, I will gladly admire and bless your occupied grave.
:0)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Now lets hope that something tears you apart.
Does anyone have any idea when the F might start going express from Jay street to 7th ?
Vince
The rizzide you took was worth ---MORE--- than the 10 stuffed shells you prolly paid to see that flick.
Conserve $ next time, lol! :)
+ denotes transfer with another subway line
* denotes an express station
stations in bold indicate an express station
Branches
A. Hillside Avenue--extension beyond 179th Street to:
1. 264th Street and Hillside Avenue
2. Spur via Braddock Avenue to Belmont Park, then to Nassau County, terminating in East Meadow
Stations (east of 179th Street)
1. 188th Street/Hillside
2. 196th Street/Hillside
3. Francis Lewis/Hillside*
4. 212th Street/Hillside
5. Springfield Blvd./Hillside*
East of Springfield, the line divides three ways, east to 264th Street, southeast to East Meadow and north to Bay Terrace
To Floral Park (the extension to 264th Street is a four track line)
6. 235th Street/Hillside
7. Winchester Blvd/Hillside
8. Commonwealth Blvd/Hillside*
9. Little Neck Pkwy/Hillside
10. 264th Street/Hillside*
To Belmont Park and East Meadow
11. Winchester Blvd/Braddock Avenue
12. Gettysburg Street/Braddock Avenue
13. Jamaica Avenue+
14. Belmont Park+
East of Belmont Park, a 3 track line continues to East Meadow, consisting of about 21 stations, with peak express stops at Franklin Square, Hempstead, Carman Avenue and, and the East Meadow terminal itself, more specifically called Newbridge Road/East Meadow
The Winchester, Gettysburg and Jamaica Avenue Stations are two tracks, the Belmont Park station is four tracks
Note that the Springfield Blvd. Station is design to turn trains, both within station and in standard IND relay procedures
Also note that the Belmont Park Station can turn trains.
B. Bay Terrace Branch—a northern route from the Hillside Avenue mainline serving Bayside and Bay Terrace
Consisting entirely of two tracks, this line proceeds north along Springfield and Bell Blvds. and stops at the following stations:
1. Kingsbury Avenue/Springfield Blvd.
2. 73rd Avenue/Springfield Blvd.
3. 58th Avenue/Springfield Blvd.
4. 48th Avenue/Bell Blvd
5. Northern Blvd/Bell Blvd.+
6. 35th Avenue/Bell Blvd
7. 26th Avenue/Bell Blvd
8. Bay Terrace/Bell Blvd
C. Van Wyck Branch—originally proposed for the IND 2nd System, this line proceeds south down the Van Wyck Expwy, dividing into to a mainline to Rosedale and a spur branch to Kennedy Airport. The line consist of three tracks to Rosedale and two to the Airport. Rosedale service can allow peak direction express service.
Stations for Rosedale Branch—east of Van Wyck Blvd.
1. Archer Avenue/Van Wyck
2. Liberty Avenue/Van Wyck+
3. Linden Blvd/Van Wyck+ *
4. 141st Street/Foch Blvd
5. Inwood Street/Foch Blvd
6. 155th Street/Foch Blvd
7. Baisley Blvd-Rochdale Village/Guy Brewer*
8. 137th Avenue/Guy Brewer
9. Farmers Blvd/Conduit Ave*
10. Springfield Blvd/Conduit Ave
11. 229th Street/Conduit Ave
12. 243rd Street-Rosedale/Conduit Ave+ *
Service via Van Wyck to Kennedy Airport also stops at the Archer Ave, Liberty Ave, and Linden Blvd stations; diverging from the mainline to Rosedale south of Linden Blvd, the remaining stations along the spur are as follows:
1. Rockaway Blvd/Van Wyck
2. Conduit Avenue/Van Wyck (south of this station, the line enters the airport
3. Cargo Plaza
4. Kennedy Airport+ (the station is centered beneath the parking lots with an even distance from all 9 air terminals)
D. Laurelton Branch—originally part of the proposal to extend (E) service to southeast Queens via the LIRR Atlantic branch
The stations south of Jamaica Center is as follows:
1. South Road
2. 109th Avenue (one of the proposed original stations)
3. Cedar Manor (original LIRR station along this ROW, now long closed)
4. Foch Blvd
5. Baisley Blvd
6. Locust Manor (one of the current LIRR stations)
7. Springfield Blvd.
8. Laurelton (one of the current LIRR stations)—this station is given the street name 225th Street, which it crosses in the vicinity
E. Garden City (was Queens Village) Branch—formerly another part of the Archer Avenue project that was never built, this line was to extend to Springfield Blvd. in Queens Village, but in this scenario terminates in Garden City in Nassau County
This line diverges from the Laurelton branch east of the Jamaica Center station continues straightaway along Archer Avenue until that street merges with Jamaica Avenue, and proceeds along Jamaica Avenue, which eventually turns into Jericho Tnpk. Thereafter. Though the line was likely to be two tracks in reality—had it been built—it becomes 4 tracks about a mile and a half from Jamaica Center, allowing this routing to be served by two lines. The lower level (J/Z service) merges with the upper level (E service) to form a standard local-express-express-local track layout.
Stations along this line are as follows:
1. Merrick Blvd/Archer Ave
2. 172nd Street/Archer Ave—east of this station, the upper level and lower level of the Archer Avenue line merge to form one level consisting of four tracks
3. 180th Street/Jamaica Ave*
4. 188th Street/Jamaica Ave
5. 196th Street/Jamaica Ave
6. Francis Lewis/Jamaica Ave*
7. Hempstead Ave/Jamaica Ave
8. Springfield Blvd/Jamaica Ave+ *
9. Braddock Ave/Jamaica Ave+
10. Little Neck Pkwy/Jamaica Ave
11. Plainfield Avenue/Jericho Tnpk*
12. Lakeville Road/Jericho Tnpk
13. New Hyde Park Road/Jericho Tnpk*
14. Denton Ave/Jericho Tnpk
15. Marcus Ave-Courthouse Rd-Garden City/Jericho Tnpk*
F. Whitestone Branch—this line is based on the premise that the abandoned LIRR Whitestone line was converted to subway usage and that the IND World’s Fair Row became a permanent branch, except for the demolition of the World’s Fair station would’ve still occurred and the outdoor ROW along today’s Van Wyck Expwy was thereafter connected to the Whitestone Branch, providing direct service to College Point and Whitestone. The existence of this line wouldn’t have deterred construction of the Van Wyck Expwy, which could easily been built on either side of the line, allowing the subway tracks to be in the median of the expwy up until shortly before the interchange with the LIRR, where it would delve underground along College Point Blvd. for two stations, before returning outdoors again for merger with the LIRR ROW to Whitestone.
Stations along the branch are as follows upon diverging north from the Queens Blvd line after 71st Avenue:
1. Jewel Avenue (built when the line realigned to accommodate the Van Wyck Expwy; this station is located in the median of the expwy)
2. Horace Harding Blvd./College Point Blvd+
3. Sanford Avenue/College Point Blvd
4. Bridge Street-Flushing—original LIRR station
5. Industrial Park-25th Avenue (this station was added when the line was converted to subway service)
6. College Point (18th Avenue)—original LIRR station
7. Malba—original LIRR station
8. Whitestone (150th Street)—original LIRR station
9. Whitestone Landing—original LIRR station
So there are 6 branches with 11 possible primary terminal points (1) 264th Street, (2) Springfield Blvd/Hillside Ave, (3) Bay Terrace, (4) Belmont Park, (5) Newbridge Rd/East Meadow, (6) 225th Street/Laurelton, (7) Kennedy Airport, (8) 243rd Street/Rosedale, (9) Marcus Ave-Courthouse Rd/Garden City, (10) Whitestone Landing, (11) Springfield Blvd/Queens Village. Also 179th Street can still be used to turn trains.
179th Street, Belmont Park and both Springfield Blvd stations are secondary terminals and can be used to turn service not needed on the line(s) beyond those particular points. The other 8 stations are primary or end of the line terminals.
My question to railfans is, how would you route current service, to accommodate these additional lines? What routes would you change, extend or give an additional service to? Would you keep the revive the (F) express along Hillside, extend (E) service to Laurelton or to Garden City or Queens Village? What would you do with the (R) and the (V)? Note because of the “existence” of these additional lines, it wouldn’t be a good idea to keep local service turning at Forest Hills. That being the case, maybe the (G) could come back in the picture full-time. And what about additional service? Could there an additional line warranted—either local or express or both. Some had suggested extending (Q) service to Queens Blvd., but it cannot be done in reality with an antiquated signal system that cannot accommodate a large number of trains per hour. But with an CBTC system in place, an additional express service can become desireable. Also, with such a system in place, assuming that the 2nd Avenue line is already in operation, would you route a 2nd Avenue service to Queens Blvd? Would be local or express?
Also consider the number of trains per hour on the Queens Blvd. local and express tracks. Posters in the past posts on subtalk said the maximum number of trains per hour under the current signal system is around 35-40. Whatever the exact number is, an SOA signaling system could upgrade that number by 10-12. Though given how busy Queens blvd is, especially during rush-hours, the express service will likely given priority for increased tph. While you’re thinking about the routings, see if you can figure out the number of tph for each line during rush-hours.
The final issue to this scenario is rolling stock. In reality there are approximately 724-754 R46’s and about 400-420 R32’s at Jamaica. Obviously with all above mentioned additional subway coverage, more cars and more yard space is needed. As far as yard locations goes, where would you place an additional facility or facilities to help with rolling stock inspection and maintenance? Or, would you expand the Jamaica Yard to handle more cars?
For Rolling stock, the following is a list of cars that I’ve used for the two scenarios that I’m still working on. You have the option of creating additional cars of the current assigned fleets at Jamaica or choosing from the list below. Note that the total next to the fleet is the number available of these cars for NYCT routes. The scenario for which this particular question on routing services is based uses the following cars for Jamaica based trains:
R34 (640 cars) R37M (550 cars) R42 (484 cars)
R42A (400 cars) R50 (680 cars) R143 (800 cars)
TA-1 (980 cars) TA-6 (762 cars) TA-7 (306 cars) R30S (288 cars)rb R30WF (802 cars) R35/R37 (460/950 cars)rb
R35M (300 cars)rb R37WF (700 cars)rb TA-B (790 cars)rb
If you choose to add more R32’s an additional 300 cars are available, if you choose to add more R46’s, an additional 200 cars are available. The other current fleets are not available for use as they are assigned elsewhere. The addition of the R42’s here is considered a “bonus”
I’m looking forward to see what how you would handle this routing scenario by creating interesting and workable service patterns, providing more space to maintain rolling stock and choosing to assign additional fleets.
If you have any questions about this before tackling this scenario, please post them here.
Ok, I'll bite on this:
I'm assuming that we can route 40tph on a single track (though, I'm not sure this would fly in real life).
I'm also assuming that a bypass track gets built on both the Jamaica El, and Queens BLVD. The Queens Blvd express track feeds into the 63rd st tunnel.
HILLSIDE SERVICES
(F)-extended on Hillside express tracks to Springfield, then local to 264th st. Uses Queens Blvd Bypass track. This line would operate at 10tph. Uses R46. Nights, local from 71st to 264th.
(R)-To Bellmont Park, via QB/Hillside Local. 10tph. Uses R46. Nights extended along East Meadow Branch.
(K)-new service. Along the East Meadow branch. Express on Hillside/Queens Blvd, Uses Bypass track. Local on East Meadow branch. Via 63rd st tunnel to 2nd avenue line. Then via manhattan Bridge (connection to A/B tracks at Grand St) to Brighton Beach, via Brighton express tracks. weekends to Lower manhattan. 10tph, using the R50 Cars mentioned above. No service Nights.
(H)-new service via Bay Terrace Branch. Local on Hillside, express after 71st. Then via 53rd to 8th av Local tracks, WTC terminal. 9tph, using TA-1 fleet. Shuttle to Springfield Blvd Nights.
VAN WYCK SERVICES
Instead of pouring more trains into Queens Blvd, I'm making a change here, and extending the Liberty Avenue el Out to Your Liberty Av/Van Wyck station, with a peak direction express track. (This track travels under Grant avenue, and is connected to the Fulton Express tracks. The Archer Av/Van Wyck station is not built.
(A)-Along Rosedale branch to 243rd/Conduit Ave. Peak direction express between Euclid av and Baisley Blvd, Rochdale Village. 7tph during rush hours. R32's added to pitkin yard.
(C)- Rush hours extended to Baisley Blvd. All other times Terminates at Euclid. R32's added to Pitkin Yard.
(JFK Exp)- To the Airport Branch. Then, via peak direction express to Euclid. Line diverges after Euclid, and then connects to LIRR Atlantic Av branch, to Downtown Bklyn. From there, the line would continue to Lower manhattan via montague tunnel, Then up broadway to 63rd line and then to 125th/2nd ave. Rush hours, 7tph. All other times 5 tph. Nights, this branch is closed. Uses TA-7 cars.
LAURELTON/GARDEN CITY BRANCHES
(E)-Laurelton Branch. Retains current service on Queens Blvd. 10tph. Uses R32.
(J)-Skip Stop eliminated. Express from Myrtle to Marcy. After that, Local to Marcus Av on Garden City Branch. Uses Current Fleet, and any R42A cars.
(Z)-Express from Marcus Av, then Jamaica El Bypass, Broadway el exp track and Williamsburg Bridge. Chrystie connection redesigned to link to 6th avenue express track. Z runs up 6th avenue to CPW local and the 145th/BPB terminals. R143 cars used.
WHITESTONE BRANCH
(B)- original service eliminated. (replaced by Z on CPW, K on Brighton) Whitestone landing to Church avenue, via 53rd, Queens Blvd express/6th av/S Bklyn IND local. Uses TA-6 car fleet.
ADDITIONAL SERVICES
(V)- Via Queens Blvd local between Springfield Blvd/Hillside Av & 2nd av, LES. Middays, service is cut back to 179th. Uses TA-1 car fleet
(G)- Rush hours, to 179th. Middays, to Continental av. All other times, to Queens Plaza. Uses R35.
You probably included too many cars for use.
Man, that was time consuming. Anything else?
Extending the A and C service to the Van Wyck line is an interesting idea, but since the van Wyck line is underground, the connector from the Liberty Avenue El would have to ramp down into a tunnel portal in the area to connect with the Van Wyck line. You took advantage of the peak express track on the line, which would be helpful to potential riders who live near the line.
Most of the routings you listed are uncannily similar to what I have projected for potential service for Queens Blvd. But do note that this scenario is not based on the documents of the primary scenario of the transit project that I've sent you, but one of the alternate scenarios that are also part of the main project.
The rolling stock choices you gave for the lines were good, but I did note that you had one line associated with only one type of equipment. Also I will point out that you given Redbirds to the G (that what the R35's are, from my library of fictional rolling stock) and 75 foot cars to the M (that's what the R42A's were a fictional predecessor to the R44's). But since you didn't know that, it's not really important, since the point was to provide a workable routings for Queens Blvd services. I list briefly what the other rolling stock are:
The R30WF and R37WF are simply the B Division's equivalent to the R33/R36 WF fleets
The R30S, is another supplementary contract to the R30's and differ from them, is that they have drop sash picture windows, instead of the rectangular style that the former fleet uses. BEcame Redbirds upon overhaul
The R35's and R37's, two identical contracts, are a continuation of the R27/R30 fleets and were fully overhauled and now look identical to the former A Divisions's R29/R33/R36ML Redbirds, notably with the same flap window style
The R37M's are a modified version of the R37 fleet and are s aluminum bodied cars of gleaming silver that have picture windows in the style of the R32's, a horizontal blue band across the lower half of the car bodies and a different interior design from its laht and later Redbird counterpart R37 fleet.
The TA-B's are a supplemental contract to the R35/R37 fleets, are comprised of laht and carbon steel and are Redbirds like the R35/R37's. They are identical inside and outside to the former two fleets that the only distinguishing difference is the color of the car number within the black car number plate. Whereas all R-Series cars uses white on black car number plates, TA-Series cars uses yellow on black car number plates.
The TA-1's are stainless steel cars and are a variant of the R32's and have the drop sash windows that were featured on the both the A Divison and B Division laht fleets--R16 through R36ML, and when they were overhauled had the new style of flap windows found on the
rebuilt R29/R33/R36ML cars
The TA-6's are a supplemental fleet to the R46's and are identical to the R46's except for interior cosmetic differences
The TA-7's are a 60 foot stainless steel supplemental fleet of the fictional R61/R61A fleet, which is essentially the B Division equipment of the A Division's R62/R62A fleets. They too, are identical to the R61/R61A's except with interior cosmetic differences.
And finally the R50's are aluminum bodied cars that are the 60 foot version based on the design of the original Rohr cars of the Washington DC subway.
Here is what I've had for the extended Queens Blvd. services:
(E) Express via 53rd Street to Van Wyck Blvd, then past Jamaica Center to either Laurelton or Garden City.
Late nights local via Queens Blvd to Laurelton only, Garden City late night service provided by (J) train.
(F) Express via 63rd Street to Forest Hills, local thereafter to 264th STreet and East Meadow branch. Peak express via East Meadow provided by (Q) service—see (Q) below
All Times to 264th Street, with late night service to/from East Meadow served by
(Q)—see (Q) below
Having the F continuing local service after Forest Hills is based on the premise that residents along the southern portion of Hillside AVenue--or the line currently in service to 179th STreet--will lose direct express service at the local stations. Otherwise I would've done what you did, had the (F) run express to Springfield Blvd.
(G) Restored to Queens Blvd during the week via local, east of 71st Avenue, proceeds to Whitestone, runs at All Times
I had the (G) train routed to the Whitestone Branch because the line is used heavily for non-revenue traffic of trains between the Jamaica and Flushing Yards, which are connected to each other via the Whitestone Line. A more frequent Manhattan bound line would have cause some conflict.
(Q) Express via 63rd Street to Springfield Blvd/Hillside Avenue, then local to Bay Terrrace. Also has Rush-hour peak express service via the East Meadow Line to supplement (F) service there.
Late Nights express to Springfield Blvd. then local via the East Meadow line, replacing (F) service there. Bay Terrace shuttle is reduced to a shuttle to Springfield Blvd./Hillside Avenue.
(R) Local via 60th Street to 179th Street/Hillside Avenue, relaying on the outer local tracks, with through (F) and (Q) service uses the express tracks at 179th Street.
Late Nights no (R), use (E), (G) and (X) trains
Note that the (V) train has two distinct services:
(V) Local via 53rd Street to 243rd Street/Rosedale via Van Wyck, peak express via Van Wyck during Rush-hours
Late Nights no (V), use (E), (G) and (X) trains
(V) Local via 53rd Street to 243rd Street/Rosedale via Van Wyck, all local stops along Van Wyck branch
The first (V) service has a SB routing to Brooklyn via the IND Second System’s Utica Avenue Line, while the second (V) service has a SB routing to Brooklyn via the Chrystie Street Connector to Williamsburgh Bridge and the Broadway El, providing express service there during rush-hours.
(X) Local via 63rd Street—serves the 2nd Avenue Line in Manhattan—to Kennedy Airport via Van Wyck, All Times
As for the Rolling stock, the cars listed my first post are partial listing of cars based out of the Jamaica District—which is a conglomeration of yards, as opposed to simply having Jamaica Yard maintaining rolling stock for all these routes when it clearly doesn’t’ have the space; (Q) trains, however still get the majority of its rolling stock from Coney Island, with only a small percentage from Jamaica. From that partial list, are sample of car assignments from the Queens Blvd services
(E)--R32, R34, some TA-1, R37M and Redbirds (R35/R37/TA-B)
(F)--R46 and TA-6, R32, R34, Redbirds (primarily R30WF and R30S, some R35/R37/TA-B), occasional TA-1 and R37M
(G)--R46 and TA-6, R50, some Redbirds (any), ocassional appearance of other fleets
(Q)--usually gets whatever is available at Jamaica, though the line tends to favor R32's, R34's, TA-1's and Redbirds (primarily R35/R37/TA-B), while the majority of its cars still come from Coney Island
(R)--primarily R46 and TA-6, some R32's, R34's, TA-1's, R37M's and Redbirds (any), with occasional appearances of R42's and R42A's
(V)--IND version--alomost exclusively R46 and TA-6, with supplements of R42's, R42A's and R50's
(V)--ED version--ED stands for EAstern District--this lines primarily has most of its cars based out of the EAstern District, and gets a small percentage of Jamaica based equipment that comprises only of R42's, TA-7's and R50's
(X)--primarily a REdbird based line (mostly R35/R37/TA-B, with some R30WF/R30S), the line has the most variation of rolling stock, with supplements of R32's, R34's, TA-1's, R37M's, R46's and TA-6's with appearances of other Jamaica based cars based on availability
Mine would be either a photo of an R142/R142A side sign reading:
4 | TO WOODLAWN
or a picture of an R142/R142A (4) train heading to Woodlawn. What about you?
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Chris
Erie, or Lackawanna?
I used to be an Erie man, since my ex-girlfriend at one point lived in Marion, an Erie town. Then she has since moved, and we had since broken up, and I had since moved. So I suppose now the only herald I can hang is this one:
AEM7
AEM7
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Personally, I preferred the orange version…
SINY_R143
-Chris
http://www.absence-of-fear.de/hosted/rmn/
->members
=>Darkside
Darkside is from Germany.
(4) WoodlawnBowlingGreen
aka B Bonnici
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Make Union Square station a (4) stop!
(4) WoodlawnBowlingGreen
AKA Bryan Bonnici (I've decided to reveal my first name for the first time, for this occasion only)
Am I the first to have placed a parenthesis around a subway route on-handle?
(4) WoodlawnBowlingGreen
(4) WoodlawnBowlingGreen
Formerly B Bonnici
I'll just have to be patient.
Norwood, Bronx
205 St
(D)----------------------
Brighton Beach
D to brighton beach!!!
LOL! We all have a great sense of humor here at the Talks!
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
AEM7
For answering the third part of this question, consider the following before posting an ansnwer: By additional rolling stock, one can presume that had the 2nd Avenue line been built during the 50's, there might have been an entire additional fleet of cars, the 400 car R11's. However, I'm wondering would the R10 order been larger than 400 car order in reality? Would the same have been true of the R16's? would it had a follow-up contract? or any of the proceeding contracts--R27/R30, R32, R38, R40S/M, R42, R44, R46, R68 and R143? Would there have been more laht contracts for the B Division, like an R35 contract or something or the R34 become a separate contract in its own right, instead of simply rebuilding the prototype R11 consist?
For additional MTA proposals outside of the IND 2nd System, considered the possiblity the following routes had existed as well:
(a) the BMT tunnle to Staten Island linking to the SIR per 1920's plans
(b) the capture of the Whitestone LIRR for subway service
(C) had the fomrer World's Fair line become a permanent line
(d) the N/W train exension to LaGuardia Airport
(e) extension of Archer Avenue service to Queens Village and Laurelton
(f) strange proposal of a late 1980's-early 1990's study to connect the LIRR Montauk Line to the 63rd Street Tunnel as well as the Queens Super Express
(g) If I left out any other MTA proposals, let me feel free to add them on your commentary
Also consider these questions:
(4) Also what about ridership? Do you think there would've been a bigger population growth in the areas that these lines were to serve?
(5) How would this impact current ridership patterns?
(6) Do you think the larger network would be too much to handle for the MTA either management or funding wise or both--would that mean fare hikes would've occurred more often than in reality in order to help maintain the larger subway system in top condition?
Though this question mostly pertains to the B Division, the effect that it has on the A Division may want to be considered too when answering. Also for the 2nd AVenue line, you can use any of the versions that were proposed over the years to support any part of your answer. I will give my opinion in a later post.
On last night's episode (Friday 3/26/2004), and at about 35 minutes into the show, the program displayed some really cool looking and vintage New York subway photos. They included such views as an IND R-1 interior; the front of an IRT composite car #3011 (no, not an R-10); Dyckman Street station on the IRT #1 line from early 1900's; the IND Broadway [Crosstown route], Parsons Blvd-Hillside Avenue and Union Turnpike stations; the various Manhattan Elevated lines at different spots; and some various construction shots of the early IRT.
This particular "Inside The Archives" episode will be repeated again tonight (Saturday 3/27/2004) at 9:00pm on NYC TV Channel 74, as well throughout the week. Its final showing for that episode will be on Thursday 4/1/2004 at 7:00pm. For more information about NYC TV in general, go to the official NYC website at http://www.nyc.gov, and then link from there by clicking on the NYC TV section.
-William A. Padron
["There are eight million stories here!!!"]
Once again I am using my new display system and the link is here.
http://palter.org/~brotzman/03-14-04a_SJLRTS_OPENING_DAY/Thumbnails.html
And here are some good pics.
Here is the first train ready to depart Camden at 5:45 in the morning.
Here is that same first train with a sister unit after arrival at Trenton. The VIP balloons from a day before half-heartedly greet us.
Here is the 4WA home signal at FAIR interlocking. Note the LED arrays.
Finally, the pneumatic 57 switch, 45 split-point derail and the 5WB pot signal.
Are you asking what kind of equipment the SNJLRTS uses? They're diesel LRVs built by Bombardier and powered by Mercedes Benz V12 diesel engines.
Sorry for being incredibly general.
• Bullet train: The House included $37.8 million for the high-speed train project that voters approved but Bush wants to kill. The Senate budget includes $9 million.
I can't remember how much the federal gov't approved again. Funding might be veto'd again in favor of lowering fines for developers or some BS. Plus, how much more administrative stuff is there to do with 37million dollars anyway?
It's not like they can buy equipment with that money.
Photo by David Pirmann
DONT FORGET, we also have the Subway/World Series cars, however, I can't find a picture at this time.
-Chris
If I'm working on the platform, and I leave equipment at street level, in a truck, It's a huge help to have this gate.
If the gate's not in a place where the clerk can see it, how would the clerk know if the person is really a TA employee?
Robert
In Canada, Australia and a handful of American railroads, RDC's were retrofitted with Rolls-Royce engines and "twin-disc" transmissions and those actually worked VERY nicely. I vaguely remember one of the RDC's that was inherited by Metro North being so equipped, but all the others retained their original GM equipment and thus had their occasional problems. They worked out OK though on the Poughkeepsie-Croton North run which was fairly level ...
My Athern RDC ran pretty crappy too. And that also was a transmission problem. The Rubberband drives never did cut it. I tried to replace them with geared wheelsets but my engineering skill is does not match those of OnTheJuice, and so that didn't work either.
What I finally did was to strip the tranmission units out of them, (using the power plants for hotel power only) and using a locomotive at the other end of the consist in a push pull operation. Because the Budd Units could provide hotel to the whole train, any old locomotive could be used, dint have to be a passenger locomotive.
I yanked the control stands out of the inside ends of the Budds and planted them in regular vesibule coaches which then could be used for a push pull operation. Again since freight locomotives were used in this service, hotel power had to come from a different source, and in the case of these trains it was from a power plant located in the combine.
I also have some regular push pull consists, but these need a passenger locomotive capable of providing hotel power.
Elias : )
Hey! I got some Kato carsets that I bought when I was in japan.
Nice Blue cars they were, 4 doors per side, but the motors never worked to my liking. I had 5 four car sets, but some of those did not survive my tour in the Navy, others were caniblized to make others work. Tried to ut North West power trucks in them, but as I said, I have not very fine engeneering or modling skills, and they lack the umph to run well.
Id love to see how well the lifelike sets work. But I doubt that the Abbot would spring for the price.
Elias
I did get a four-car set of the Kato RDC's when they came out, one of each variety in NH colors. So much better looking, so much better running.
I like the Katos though, even if they seem underpowered.
The Con-Cor N-scale RDC;s do quiet down a little if they are given a good lube job. The most difficult thing dealing with the Con-Cors was trying to get the Micro-Trains couplers (1049's) into that tight pocket.
I use drawbars rather than couplers on some of my consists. I get closer connections, and smoother backing operations. I could also run lighting wires throught out the train to provide for better lighting. Using a battery in the combine instead of wheel contacts give constant lighting while enroute, and keeps the lights on in the stations.
My Locomotive consists use drawbars too, and the power is wired to all three units, so that the train does not stall out where I use track gaps to spot trains on the hidden staging tracks.
Elias
As to the Katos, those are four-unit, only one powered and AREN'T RDC's - I went with the JR-103 commuter cars which were at the time, many years ago, as close as it got to subway car styling. They're OK but weak ... one of them pulls its three trailers just fine, the other three car sets tend to slip unless kept meticulously clean inside. For those curious about the 103 type, here's a couple of pictures of the actual prototypes in Nihon ...
The Kato RDC's use the very same type of drive that they stickunder their Japanese subway/EMU varieties. No flywheels, but they do run nicely enough.
But remarkably the con-cors, though not as well-rendered as the Katos for details, run VERY well even if they're growly. Of course I had to rebuild them shortly after buying them - got 'em cheap too as they'd been running for about a year 24/7 in the store that I got them from as a demo of some flaky automatic reversing display for some other product. But once I rebuilt them, they still have POWER to them ...
And the JR-103's do resemble R27/30's fairly well aside from the extra "windows" over the door pockets. And of course the pantograph on top of the power car and the round roof vents. Still, about as close to NYCTA as one could get in N gauge ... I like 'em ...
Here is a hybrid version that a friend of mine developed back in 1970s.
Sunbelt 425
Mind you these beats require more maintenance to keep them running efficiently but they are very powerful.
John
Read http://www.chesapeake.net/~cambronj/sunbelt/sunbelt425.html
This is not a stock Athearn rubber band drive unit.
John
Betcha you can't make them do 35 scale MPH!
Elias
These modified double reduction rubber band drive unit will in fact do1 scale MPH, with or without a load !
John
No.
The Budd RDC was not the first powered unit produced by Athearn that had a rubber band drive. The unit in the images is a modified stock GP-9 that was shipped with the originally single reduction rubber band drive, this unit has a modified double reduction rubber band drive.
From http://www.chesapeake.net/~cambronj/sunbelt/sunbelt425.html;
"Almost all of the power operating under the Sunbelt color scheme is essentially unique to the Sunbelt. One of the Sunbelt participants, Dallas Gilbertson, "West Coast Consultant" redesigned an older Athearn rubber band drive mechanism to include a second reduction pulley which greatly improves slow speed pulling power. This drive mechanism is augmented by additional ballast in the body of the locomotive. Any two locomotives lashed up together can pull 30-40 cars up a 2% grade."
John
Even without the flywheels they were nice runners. Athearn always made a good product at a fair price. I wonder what the new owners will be making.
Even without the flywheels they were nice runners. Athearn always made a good product at a fair price. I wonder what the new owners will be making.
Yup. That's what I did. I suspect it would have worked much better if I had cleaned and prepaired all of the gears properly and made sure that the care was perfectly free rolling before the motor was attached to the shaft. Perfect alignment is another requirement. All such work far to fussy for my temperment and vision. That is why all my trains run push-pull with a fine locomotive at the point. It is easier to spent money on a locomotive then to ditz ditz ditz with little gears screws and dodads.
Elias
They supposedly also made a gearing kit for the Athearn Hustler switcher, but Inever did see one installed.
That one I *did* make work very well. I also put a new motor in that one.
: ) Elias
AEM7
Once out west, Inever hearanyone refer to anything, RDC,s domes, etc., as "Budd Cars". Road such as the Santa Fe mixed Budd, AC&F and Pullman built equipment all in one train in later years.
In their day Budd built a lot of other things besides RDC's.
Perhaps the best way to differentiate would be to call them Budd RDC's.
And I think ConnDOT should consider the DMU for the route between Hartford and New Britain instead of that wasteful busway.
For what it's worth, I even remember a bit of graffiti on the R62's when they first came. They came just before the MTA had control of the graffiti situation
If anyone has access to the full (expensive) NY Times database, the Times has some of the very first articles describing (and popularizing) graffiti. Search for "Graffiti" and "Taki 183" (I believe that's the right tagger) who was one of the very first.
wayne
AEM7
wayne
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Robert
wayne
R42 and up had converters from the beginning.
waybe
I do rememeber it was a brutally hot day; IIRC the temperature was over 100 degrees. And no, no one got sick on any of the trains we rode. We also took an R-32 D train to the Bronx that afternoon.
A memorable R44 dark car came on my way to work. I happened to get on at Parsons Blvd (took a pre-war "E" from 169th Street one stop). This was car #146, again the lead motor. The car was very cool but it had almost nobody on board. The reason why became clear shortly thereafter - "Old Mary" was curled up in the corner by the cab and soon the car began to smell very badly. I bailed out at Union Tpke.
wayne
At least the heat wasn't on.:)
Da Hui
I know this isn't specifically an LIRR board but I figured someone here could answer this question.
When my LIRR train departs Penn Sta, there is sometimes an announcement of "restricting on the hanger"
What does this mean?
Thanks
http://www.monolith.pl/tubetales/galeria.htm
It's Polish, but has a load of photos of London Underground and R36/33 WF photos which were (stolen?) fron nycsubway.org. Whoever is the webmaster, did he tell Dave about the photos?
Daves Photo
-Chris
Photo by SINY_R143
-Chris
-(4) WoodlawnBowlingGreen
So, now that we know the potential dangers of pantograph gate rust to TA employees, WHAT ABOUT THE FISH? Can Redbirds and other SMEE's rusting away in the deep blue sea pose a danger of tetanus to fish who start to use these retired cars as marine homes? First of all, can fish even GET tetanus? All explanations are welcome are welcome, even if one or two are comedic. I love comedy. ;)
TIA.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
And mammals have 4 legs, hair, lungs.
Why the f-ck did the TA didn't dare to remove anything off the Redbirds' exterior when they were cut up at 207? The pantograph gates, # plates, TA logos, yard stickers, US flags, headlights, horn, radio antennae, et al. were left on.
You hold them all down while someone else sticks a needle in them for the vaccine.
WHALES don't have any legs or hair.
All mammal females have mammary glands, that's what makes a mammal.
Have a look here for a map and then drill down to the submaps to see just how much there is offshore. We have world-class wrecks in our backyard!
And the fish, mussels, lobsters, sea-stars, anemones love the wrecks as they provide shelter. You can bet that the Redbirds reefed last year have a coating of mussels all over them!
I think I've met a few of these.
-Chris
-Chris
til next time
How many lines have had diamond variants? When was the diamond motif devised to denote expresses?
I imagine it's used to denote an express variant of a line that doesn't travel on any different trackage than the local. For example, the N can't be a diamond R, since it begins and ends up in different stations than the R. But the 7 can be diamonded, since it's a pure express version of the local. Ditto the recent Diamond Q.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I think it was introduced to replace some double lettered lines.
-Chris
It was used to denote rush hour only services.
Years ago (about the late 80's, I recall a dimond 4 during rush hours for the 4 trains to Utica Ave).
Tony
OTOH, the "5" in Brooklyn is denoted with a circle-probably a mistake.
In 1979, diamonds were introduced to denote rush hour service. Thus the B to/from 168 became the diamond-B and the B to 57/6 remained the circle-B -- on the map, at least (accurate circle/diamond signage on the trains themselves has never been a priority until recently).
Diamonds have never been used specifically for express service. They were initially used for rush hour service, both for services that didn't run at any other time of day and for special rush hour variants of full-time services, including special rush hour expresses. Over time, the function of the diamond has changed; now, it's used for part-time route variants that either bypass stops on the main route or diverge from the main route, so the diamond only exists on the 5, 6, 7, and A (and arguably it should also exist on the 2 and/or E).
However, there were additional routes who although didn't carry diamonds on the rollsigns, were denoted on maps and stations with diamond due to rush hour service patterns. Those were in addition to what I named above, "A", "D", "J", "M".
In today's world of NY transit, the services and routes have changed quite a bit. There is only one route that is totally a rush hour only route and that is the "Z". A lot of routes that used to be rush hour only has become full service routes, ie: "C", "Q". The same could be said for rush hour services patterns (now are all day services) "6", "7".
Thus, this caused the diamond definition to change.
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Standard speech about people doing things to actually make things safer instead of just giving the facade of safety.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df03222004.shtml#Regarding
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The only thing needed to get the rail line doing is the replacement of all those darn Texans.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df03222004.shtml#Trans-Texas
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Anybody spot this reporter on opening day?
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df03222004.shtml#River
Where was the Burlington Country police? These protestors should have been arrested and sent to jail for what they did. Why the nerve! The only losers were those protestors!
Folks, if this train is ever going to take off they better get more investment next to that Acquarium. (sp) Otherwise, it will be the train to nowhere. How about getting a mall down there ASAP! As for the protestors, the next time they show up, get the water hoses and attack dogs! ;-)
I say you should be arrested. You think you have the freedom to say what you want when you want? The nerve!
As for the protestors, the next time they show up, get the water hoses and attack dogs! ;-)
Multi-million dollar police brutality suits do not serve governments well.
You and I may not agree with them, but they're entitled to their opinion!
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Monorail, Monorail, Monorail...
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df03222004.shtml#Labor
Monorail, MONORAIL, MONORAIL
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Yet another "starter" segment...I wonder how many finishing segments we'll see in 50 years time.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df03222004.shtml#Phoenix
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And boy CSX sure is having a fit and doing every thing they can to stop them. Jeez, if only CSX could put this much effort into railroading.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df03222004.shtml#Short
When was the last time a beach line made money carrying passengers? Let me think of some examples: errrr, Penn-Reading Seashore Lines? Boston & Lynn Narrow Gauge Railway? Nantucket Railway? Florida East Coast?
Which one did NOT go bankrupt?
AEM7
I wish I knew exactly what they are doing. I can't see it being a year around thing or even a long term solution. I assume they're just trying to catch some of that special event money. Either way they better do what I suggest jet-train should.
Marketing and special combination deals. Fill up the hotel rooms of local travelers in the drive market with a special combo deal. Take the train to the beach to the hotel.
We got a few shortlines that do dinner trains too, not sure what they have in SE GA and NE FL.
That'll work. But the right way to do that is with an Amtrak charter. Amtrak has insurance idenmity, Amtrak has a bunch of rolling stock that it could use for charters (yes, there is a shortage, but in the scheduled slots, not for charters), Amtrak has crews already trained to operate passenger trains, Amtrak has a longstanding relationship with CSX. It makes no sense to buy new stock or rehab old stock just for a special event. Lease it from people who already have stock laying around. Even if Amtrak couldn't supply the coaches, they can probably lease them from the private fleet, just use an Amtrak locomotive and Amtrak crew. Or even borrow one from one of the established operators, like Denver Ski Train which is presumably sitting empty during the summer. For a short line to be attempting to enter this business on its own is nothing short of foolhardy.
AEM7
Sorry, couldn't resist.
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Nice to see that industries are finally seeing there exist alternatives to trucks.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df03222004.shtml#Industrial
Between this, Nadler's GW Bridge loss starvation arguement, and the I95 disaster, Nadler's rail tunnel almost makes sense.
There is a real issue on long haul. Trucking has been competitive with rail by having truckers violate the hours of rest rule. My father in law knows some truckers, and what he tell me would terrify you.
On the other hand, you really don't save much transferring from rail to trunck in Queens, vs. rail to truck in NJ. For this to pay off I think the rail tunnel would not only have to move freight from far away, but also from the overnight trucking zone. It would have to have something like the chunnel, where trucks could drive onto a train, and truckers could take their meal or sleep instead of sitting in NY area traffic, then drive off on other side.
They certainly would if they are paid by the mile, or carry their own insurance. We have the highest freight rates in the country. But I'm not sure how much of that is due to the Hudson River crossing, which a rail tunnel could help to fix (a dedicated tunnel and two-lane highway for trucks in the same ROW would also fix) and how much is due to street grid congestion.
It's due mostly to congestion as a whole. $20 tolls isn't much of an overhead for a truck full of stull. But An extra 2 hours of travel time for the same distance costs a bundle. Both the congestion at the tunnels and the street congestion are issues.
Some manufacturing could make sense in the city. Light assembly-type work, for example.
Wrong. NYC is the biggest consuming market in the United States. Shit that would otherwise go by truck to lil beantowns like Boston could come by the rail carload to NYC. Around NYC, there are a bunch of bustling distribution centers. Many of them consume rail carload volumes. Only the local delivery needs to be by truck.
By the way: in Europe, an unit train is anything over 10 cars long carrying the same commodity. By that standard, we could have daily paper unit trains coming from Maine to New York City.
AEM7
I'm just not sure getting stuff to Queens and then putting it on a truck is enough to justify the cost of the rail tunnel, or if shippers will even bother.
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Ooo, more fun when I play tank car bingo.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df03222004.shtml#CSXstarts
And you should SEE the monsters that CSX is rolling through here - Six MU'd dash9's pulling long LONG trains that would put Nebraska to shame, sometimes with another pair somewhere in the middle as "helpers" ... I don't know why they're blowing horns at the crossings here anymore - the gates NEVER go up. :(
But the "supertankers" go to Selkirk and rolled out to the Hudson where the transfer yards are. CP's operation at Kenwood has been slowing tremendously lately and all of the "TankTrains" down there are local industry now ...
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Step two, get it more than 2 trains a day.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df03222004.shtml#Erie
Is this gonna catch on? I doubt it.
The color groupings really just make the map easier to read. for that i'm grateful
And no. It's not going to catch on.
(Yeah, yeah..I know..it really stands for "New Rythm & Blues Quartet")
I'm sure people are calling the lines whatever they want and there are other ways that are popular.
OTOH, I can't think of any abreviations in the style of "Gra-Cen" used among New Yorkers. Tex-Mex is the closest I can think of but that's not really a place, area or landmark's name. London has its "Ally Pally(Alexandra Palace)" and Paris has its "Boul'Miche(Boulevard St.-Michel". Maybe I should start the trend. How about "Willy-Burghie" for Williamsburgh or "Broad/Laf" for Broadway-Lafayette?
I know in your area it is probably refered as "J/M/Z". However there are some areas where if you look at the signs, you will see "J/Z" within the same bullet, one of the places being the Bway-Myrtle station, which is where the rapper came from.
However there are some areas where if you look at the signs, you will see "J/Z" within the same bullet
Of course I am aware of that. :-) You don't have the M running there.
It's a shortened version of Jazzy and has nothing to do with trains.
From his website:
"Born and raised in the rough Marcy Projects of Brooklyn, NY, Jay-Z underwent some tough times after his father left his mother before the young rapper was even a teen. Without a man in the house, he became a self-supportive youth, turning to the streets, where he soon made a name for himself as a fledging rapper. Known as "Jazzy" in his neighborhood, he soon shortened his nickname to Jay-Z, and did all he could to break into the rap game."
Peace,
ANDEE
There is no good way to refer to the Manhattan trunk lines except for the terminology of the 1950s. If I want to refer to the N/Q/R/W, the easiest thing to say is "BMT". But I have also heard newcomers saying "yellow line".
My favorite map was circa 1962: IND was Red, BMT was Green, and IRT was Black. No route letters or numbers were printed on the map at all. Lines were identified by lables: Concourse; Sea Beach; Brighton; Jamaica; Queens etc.
Then there were the maps of the 70s and 80s where each route had its own color, and that was confusing. Todays map is one of the clearest most easily understood, but New Yorkers will still refer to the lines by their names or divisions.
Elias
If they are over 50, yes. My wife refers to the west side IRT, east side IRT, BMT, and IND, and she is definitely not particularly a transit fan.
I also heard, but I'm not sure, that the white paint was supposed to be grafitti-resistant, had some sort of teflon-like material in it, so when the cars went through the washer, most of the vandalism went down the drain. I wasn't around the subways that much inthose days (lived on the west coast, but visited back there yearly) so I didn't really notice...the cars in white were clean, but did have a little bit of tagging when I was there.
BTW, I never saw the white paintjob on any B division car. Did I miss them, or was this intentional?
Supposedly one or two R-27/30's were repainted white, but only for a movie shoot. I think the movie was called "Beat Street".
Bill "Newkirk"
D.
--Mark
David
Got me thinking... what artists have used the NYC subway as a backdrop for their music videos, slightly or prominently?
Two others I can think of offhand are Cyndi Lauper, who dances up one of the entrances (can't think of which one, but it was the old signage) in "Girls Just Wanna Have Fun" and Alicia Keyes' new video has the 125th St Station.
Any more?
The video was shot in 89.
It has: (in order)
R62A S shuttle, Times Square
R46 R, pre-GOH with blue belly band
yellow-sticker (Pelham) R62A's (17xx) at 51 St/Lex
shots of R42s (one I can positively tell, 4874) at Williamsburgh Bridge
R33 ML 9123
NJT Arrow II, Hoboken
.......Will I see you tonight on a downtown train
Every night, every night it’s just the same
On a downtown train
I know your window and I know it’s late
I know your stairs and your doorway
I walk down your street and past your gate
I stand by the light of the four way
And watch them as they fall, oh baby
They all having their heart attacks
They stay at the carnival
But they’ll never win you back
Will I see you tonight on a downtown train
Every night, every night it’s just the same
You leave me lonely
Will I see you tonight on a downtown train
All my dreams, all my dreams fall like rain
On a downtown train
Will I see you tonight on a downtown train
Every night, every night it’s just the same
Will I see you tonight on a downtown train
All my dreams, all my dreams fall like rain
On a downtown train
On a downtown train
All my dreams fall like rain
On a downtown train
Fabolous's "Young'n" video features them all on R-62A #2133 (which can be found on the 7) sporting a green "X" train bullet on the front.
Some video by Maxwell featured him on a F train to Avenue X but for only a short while
There was also a video by the band Jet by Day (I think that was the name) that featured them performing on the platform at 42 St-Grand Central for the 7 train.
Can't think of any others.
It has R36 9560, 9726, the interior of R33WF 9342, R62A 1750 & 1751
http://www.fliterisk.com/NewLots/
Fat Joe/Thalia video last summer had her walking alongside the 2 el at the point where it was bilevel due to the 3 Av el tracks; I believe the latter have been removed.
:(
But what do we have here? (Look on the far left):
It gets better:
I didn't know Yonge station was on 6th Avenue:-)
I hate these Hollywood/MV portrayals of the NYC Subway. They can NEVER get it right.
Regards,
Jimmy
Weird Al Yankovic had a Poodle Hat on a Brooklyn Bridge bound r32/nee38
NYPD blue had visuals of subways (an IND station) in it's opener.
---Sir Ronald of McDonald
Same stops until eliminated in 1990.
B: Night shuttle 57St-CI???
57 St/6 Av-Coney Island via West End and there was another shuttle from 36 St/4 Av-Coney Island.
J: A/B skip-stop: which stop had been A, B, AB?
Not sure about this one but might be similar to today's skip stop.
M: CI via???
CI via Brighton local.
David
Chris: The single track shuttle was the B between 57 Street/6 Avenue and 47-50 Streets. It ran in both directions on the uptown local track.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Chris: That shuttle only ran during the midnight hours when the headways was 20 minutes.
Do you rember in the late 70's when the #5 was cut back to Bowling Green middays and ran light via the inner loop at South Ferry to reverse? The Bowling Green Shuttle was still running then and it managed to squeeze in between the #5's which were on a 10 minute headway.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Nope, the shuttle service ended before my time.
Nope, the shuttle service ended before my time
Yes indeed. The service ended in the early hours of February 13, 1977. The last train left South Ferry at 1210AM and arrived at Bowling Gree at 1211AM. R12 5705 was on the north end with 5704 on the south end.
Another sad day in transit history. Ever since then its been a long walk in the rain from the ferry to the subway.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Not really. Transerring from the 4 or 5 to the shuttle to ride such a short distance must have been rather awkward. I'd probably end up walking rather than waiting and using all those extra stairs if the shuttle is still running. The solution to the loss of the shuttle is either an undergound walkway, or a canopy over the west sidewalk of State Street.
It should read "57 St/6 Av, Manhattan --47-50 Sts, Manhattan". The shuttles ran 57-50 and 36-CI.
M train went to CI via Brighton.
The only A/B stop between Queens Blvd (obviously an A/B stop) and Myrtle Ave was Elderts Lane. Note that this skip stop pattern ran in the morning only, so it didn't matter much what station was what.
This skip stop service was ended when the J was cut back to 121st St. in 1985.
The M trains back then ran to Coney Island via Brighton Mon-Fri 6a-8p.
Other times, the M was a shuttle in Queens/ Bklyn.
I recall the late night B 57-50 St shuttle. In those days, some midday B trains used to lay up in the center tracks at Second Avenue (especially the ones that ran to 168 St that DIDNT turn into AA's).
Tony
The scans came out very well - easy to read.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
To give you an idea, here are the various routes in the PATH system based on existing maps:
Red Line - Newark to WTC
Blue Line - 33 St to Hoboken
Green Line - Hoboken to WTC
Yellow Line - 33 St to Journal Sq.
Blue/Yellow - 33 St to Journal Sq via Hoboken [late night service]
How would you feel if you heard the annoucement saying, "This is a Red Line train to the World Trade Center", or "This is a Yellow Line Train to Journal Square" ?
Would this make marketing the lines simpler and easier [as if PATH needs more marketing, based on the heavy usage it gets]?
wayne
I had planned on reading all about the "Subways" and then adding the section to my subway library. I guess that it was meant not to be.
I'm glad that I checked before I spent $4.50 for the paper!
Correct, it's only included on editions sold within the city. There are other supplements for editions sold in Westchester, Long Island, New Jersey and Connecticut.
The good news, however, is that the City section is included in the Times' online edition (free registration required).
Chuck Greene
-Chris
Did they "ask" me? No. But the site is public knowledge and I appreciate their acknowledgements.
Call them Monday morning and ask.
I'll wait for it rather than reading it online, and you can be sure that I will be watching for the mail.
My trip started like this:
8AM, got on NJT 403 bus in front of my apt. complex
8:26 am - River Line/ Camden To Trenton
9:38 am - NEC/ Trenton to Newark. Change to PATH
10:45 am - PATH to JSq, then change to 33 st train
11:20 am - Got off at 33 st, went to 34 st station.
Total trip time 3 hours, 20 minutes [used PATH]
After riding around NYC, [D train to Pacific Ave, LIRR to Jamaica using City Ticket, Airtrain to JFK, Q10 bus to Kew Gdns, F to 47-50 st, D to 59 st. Lunch at the new Time-Waner center at Columbus Circle, then buse to various places in Harlem and Bronx, back on the 2 train to Times Sq. After taking in atmosphere in Times Sq, then went to Penn Station for the trip home.] I began my return home.
The homeward journey went like this:
9:03 pm - NEC/NY Penn Station to Trenton
10:30 pm - RiverLINE to Camden
11:46 pm - 403 bus to Collingswood
12:03 am - back home in my apartment
Total return trip time: 3 hours.
If I had used SEPTA, I would have missed my bus connection and had to use PATCO and a cab. The RiverLINE not only makes my travel easier, but cheaper because I only had to pay for the NEC train ticket [and PATH fares] to go to/from NYC. [I use a monthly bus pass, so I do not have to pay on the RiverLINE]. Now that travel to NYC is quicker and cheaper, I will be making more frequent trips in the future to enjoy ALL of the Transit goodies.
I was down there yesterday again, and it was MUCH LESS of a circus! (However, how would anyone wanna fish out a bridge just south of Delanco that had to be fished out of the water during construction, or jay-walk in Burlington across Broad Street right thru the tracks in the middle of the street?)
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
Perhaps you are implying that he should call your parents for a ride to Hamilton.
Chuck Greene
You and over 80% of the people behind the wheel. Join the crowd!
Chuck Greene
Speling error.
Chuck Greene
So Jerksey Mike, don't diss my travel experience. To me, the RiverLINE is a GODSEND, and it will provide me with more opportunities to get to NYC more often, and enjoy the entire experience of the city.
Chuck Greene
Even though I'm talking LRT/monorail plans that only go through one section of one metro, and not two cities in the same megalopolis. All your stories adds for more thinking and juxtaposing to all the other plans in other cities and really gives it all a thumbs up.
I'm sure there are a lot of people who would do other thigns than spend a few hours on the 409, which is similiar to some of our routes(though ours is cheaper). Shrink that down to a resonable time and price, people would venture aboard. Because let me tell you, for someone who likes the bus, 2 hours is stretching it. Really streaching it. Even if it is cheaper than driving.
2] Because I wanted to go to 33rd st and catch the D train
The round trip excursion fare between Trenton and New York Penn via NJ Transit is $15.75.
To Redbird fans and 7 riders, victory hasn't been sweeter. 9565 is heading to a new home. Read more.
But... what will happen to 9564? Do we a Catholic divorce on our hands?
http://www.newsday.com/mynews/ny-qlsprd3723805mar28,0,3311165.story
In short, they are moving the car up to a municipal parking lot on Little East Neck Road in North Babylon.
Sounds like it'll get covered in graffiti in no time.
-Chris
I also doubt that they'll let it get into too bad shape.
Let's hope they don't. If Bob Cava is smart, he'll repaint it in the as delivered robins egg blue and white. If you're going to make the car a display of artifacts and history, then repaint it in an much better livery than Redbird.
Bill "Newkirk"
It's the the one with the large red strip of duct tape beneath its window frame. It had it for over a year now. It also has many rust spots, bondo patches, and holes.
The celebration, which will include exhibits and special events, will culminate on Oct. 27, exactly one hundred years to the day when then-New York Mayor George McClellan steered the inaugural train from City Hall to 145th Street and Broadway. Mayor Michael Bloomberg has indicated a willingness to re-enact the event.
There were fewer lawyers back then, less aggressive system safety departments, and no unions to object to out of title work. Sorry, Bloomy.
The menu:
BREAKFAST
1. Main Street-Pancakes with butter & syrup. Served with eggs and sausage.
2. Queensboro Plaza-French Toast, w/butter & syrup, eggs & sausage.
3. Woodside-Two Eggs, with sausage, bagel or potatoes
Breakfast sides
bacon
sausage
hash brown
bagel
juice
LUNCH
1. Shea Stadium-Hot Dog w/ fries
2. Bryant Park-Hamburger or Cheeseburger
3. Courthouse Square-Deli sandwich w/cole slaw & pickle,
Turkey, Ham, Roast Beef, Chicken Salad, American Cheese, Grilled Cheese
Sides
French Fries
Mozzarella Sticks
Chicken Strips
Soup-Chicken Noodle, Vegetable
Salad-Garden, Chicken Caesar
DINNER
1. Grand Central-Roast Empire Strip Steak, served with vegetable, potatoes and salad
2. Times Square-Turkey, with gravy, mashed potatoes and salad
3. Hunterspoint Avenue-Spaghetti with tomato sauce, vegtable and salad
4. Junction Boulevard-Grilled chicken breast, salad and vegetable
Sides
Vegetable
Salad
Fresh Baked Desserts
Cookies
Pastries
Muffins
Cheesecake
Ice Cream
Donuts
Drinks
Soft Drinks
Milk
Coffee, Tea, Decaf
Water
THIS IS MY DREAM! IF I COULD BUY 9564 (9565's mate) THIS IS WHAT I"LL DO!
If you want a train diner-- use a dining car.
amtrak will have some nice ones for sale if the new viewliners come.
-Chris
South Ferry, help a BRAH out!
No. That used to connect to the LIRR at White Pot.
Elias
avid
wayne
And of course you're not even counting political pressure along that corridor (NIMBY...).
But railbuffs rarely do (and AirTrain of course doesn't meet the railbuff's definition of a choo-choo - but that's OK, since passengers are having a good experience riding it). I accept your limitations...:0)
The East Side Access tunnel is too far North of the Montalk Branch.
No, it isn't. As long as a train can access Harold Interlocking it can access the 63rd St tunnel. And even if ESA line merges were not easily accessible, MTA could always dig another short connecting tunnel and merge the Rockaway service into it.
What about Glendale Junction ? You can read all about it in "Change At Ozone Park", and on Tom Scannello's, and I think also Kevin Walsh's, sites. There is still trackage from Montauk Branch eastbound to Rockaway Line southbound. You can see it on the Montauk Branch under the Woodhaven Blvd. overpass, and it is a separate trestle over Union Turnpike just east of Woodhaven Blvd. and just west of the Rockaway Line trestle over Union Turnpike. There was also once, and may still be, trackage, from Montauk Branch westbound, just west of its trestle over Union Turnpike, to Rockaway Line northbound, merging with the Rockaway Line just south of the Metropolitan Avenue trestle.
wayne
:0)
Chris, what did I tell you about babbling ?
Oh, okay, let me rephrase that:
AirTrain and an LIRR reactivation from Penn and Brooklyn on the Rockaway Branch are two entirely different things, and would service two totally different groups of people. AirTrain does NOT serve Manhattan, an LIRR-Rockaway Branch connection would. Airtrain along the Van Wyck is fine, and all well and good for Queens and Long Island Resdients, but it does nothing for Manhattan residents/workers.
False and absurd statement. AirTrain is the common airport arrival/transfer point for LIRR and subway from Manhattan, Brooklyn and the Island. It makes the Rockaway line (as an airport service) entirely unnecessary and a complete waste of taxpayers' money. A direct link from lower Manhattan, involving a whole new rail line, has the support of certain business groups, but talk is cheap and all it is is talk right now.
So the Msnhattan market is already well-served. And you have nothing to prove otherwise.
No, they can get the LIRR at Penn Station and take it to Jamaica.
Given what they bought, what funds and laws were used to make the purchase, and the rules that were in place when the line was built, this was what was done.
Enjoy the service, or rent a helicopter or a limosine if you wish to ride on something different. (Shesh!)
Now then, out here, the airline tickets say the same drivle about arriving at the airport two hours early. But if you try that, you will arrive exactly 100 minutes before the airport opens and the worker (there is only one) gets there.
When she arrives, she will take your ticket, check your bags and roll them out to the airplane (when the airplane lands). Then you can walk out on the apron to the airplane (The nice lady will be holding the propeller with a rope, just incase the wind tries to turn it, and in turn, it hit you in the head.) It does not matter if you wanted a window or an isle seat, because that is all there is on this airplane.
There is no stewardess, no coffee, no pepsi, and no restroom on board the plane. Bring your own Attends if you need them.
: )-
I used to work right next to Penn Station. I would have loved to have Airtrain available for very quick airport access: LIRR to Jamaica, then Airtrain.
The station that used to be just north of Metropolitan Avenue was called Parkside. Herbert George, in his excellent book on the Rockaway Line, "Change At Ozone Park", mentions how he and other residents of downtown Forest Hills used to use that station for quick and easy rail access to midtown Manhattan (Penn Station) in half an hour or less.
Trees growing up through the tracks : it's as though Forest Park was expanding north to Rego Park and south to Liberty Junction via the abandoned Rockaway Line ROW.
"As for proximity to homes, it's not any different than let's say the LIRR through Laurelton is, or the Brighton Line, etc."
False. It's considerably more troublesome than those lines.
Aside of that: What you seem to forget is that while a currently operating line can ne "grandfathered," (nobody is going to shut down an existing operating line over this issue) a new line (and the Rockaway would be treated in that category) has to be constructed so to a far higher standard. So reviving the Rockaway will cost a hell of a lot more than you wantto pretend. Of course, that's part of the railbuff act, so I understand.
If local residents have an interest in local service, it might be good to come up with a proposal and a DEIS. But if this were to be primarily another airport line, then it's money flushed down the toilet. Projects like the Second Av Subway, or a Javits 7 extension, and improving/extending existing subway lines to provide better service in Queens is far more important than a line which would be expensive to revive (and can't be revived at all for LIRR service prior to the 63rd Street tunnel's completion), and not enough residents even want or value.
I don't fully understand this fascination I have with the often dismal and dilapidated remains of what once was, but I think you have it too. Regarding photos of Montauk Branch LIRR you once posted, you commented, "Here they are, in all their pathetic glory". We are not alone in this, else why would Tom Scannello's and Kevin Walsh's sites be so heavily visited ?
Last Friday I checked out the Rockaway Line pix on Jeff Saltzmann's site and enjoyed them too. I'm hoping he'll add more pix and continue south from Metropolitan Avenue to Liberty Junction.
Yeah, for better or worse I have that "disease" too, haha, and have no idea why. And it spreads beyond railroading for me too, such as old buildings, theaters, etc, well you know that. I love trains, but a huge part of my interest in railroading and the subway is the infastructure, not just the trains themselves. I love station infastructure. And like you said "dismal and dilapidated remains of what once was", and again, not just related to the rails. This is probably why as station like Chambers St "in all it's glory" could be one of my favorite stations, and the J along Broadway is my favorite el. It's not just the el itself, but all the surroundings, and the history.
As for the photos, those are from the Woodhaven station like you said. The top one was taken just east of the Woodhaven station. They were all taken in September of either 1991 or 1992. I may have some more slides from about 1997 that contain from Whitepot Junction to the Montauk Branch. I don't think I ever scanned them, so may look for them one day and do so.
Oh, and what I forgot to say about that is that many of the other els are very interesting too, but they seem to lack something. I railfanned the Culver El the other day (http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4287350447), and although it is an interesting el, "something" is missing. The surrounding buildings seem to lack the "history" that the Broadway El's surroundings have. The Culver el runs through beautiful neighborhoods, but I can't explain it, there is less to "see" when I get off at the stations. Ditmas Ave was interesting (because of the remains of the old el ROW), Bay Parkway was sort of interesting because of the cemeteries (yeah, I must be sick); but the rest lack something, they are so cookie cutter, and unless I write down where I took a photo, I would have a hard time placing the location. I got off at Ave I, Ave N, and Ave U and they all seem to blend together, even the photos look the same at each of those stations.
You would never have that problem on the Broadway El because the surroundings are so interesting, even now that so much is torn down. The photos come out more unique on the Jamaica or Broadway El, the Bronx els, and even the Astoria El.
Don't get me wrong, the Culver El has a rich history, especially from it being the mainline of the SBK for so many years underneath. WHat I find interesting about it is it's lack of buildings facing McDonald Ave, especially apartment buildings. Most of the facing buildings are one story buildings, and either industrial or commercial. Maybe this is because "Gravesend Ave" used to be a railroad ROW? It surroundings seemed to develop much differently than most of the other els in NYC.
I do like the Culver El:
p.s.: I would love to see Mott Haven - 138th Street railroad station re-open.
That will never happen because there a subway station nearby.
Bill "Newkirk"
Spoken as a railfan, of course, who would see all railroad stations re-open, everywhere, if he could, and be glad about it too.
I don't think fascination with proximity to cemeteries is a sign of being sick, in fact, it's one of my four "fascination criteria" for portions of the NYC subway system :
1) proximity to cemeteries
2) proximity to LIRR
3) proximity to Bklyn-Queens border
4) transition from underground to elevated, or elevated to ground level.
The BMT Canarsie Line between Halsey St. and Bway Junction meets all four criteria. Other lines come close, like BMT Myrtle between Fresh Pond and Metropolitan, IND Fulton between Grant and Hudson.
I know what you mean about the uniqueness of the images on the Broadway-Jamaica el.
[The BMT Canarsie Line between Halsey St. and Bway Junction meets all four criteria. Other lines come close, like BMT Myrtle between Fresh Pond and Metropolitan, IND Fulton between Grant and Hudson.]
And let's not leave out the IRT Eastern Pkwy between Utica and Sutter via Lincoln Terrance Park!
This next photo I had taken last Wednesday from the Bay Parkway platform looking down on this scene from the opposite direction. They definitely are "selling the roads" now. It's yard to see in this photo, but it's very strange seeing new gravestones along rail in gravesites with realings that clearly were supposed to be on the edge of a road, not other graves:
You're a railbuff, through and through. No sense denying it.
:0)
:0)
Especially when it's followed by anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance of your death.
Da Nile has Crockodials in it!
Don't let em byte you in the ass.
: )
No, you're wrong; trains are the only reason you like theaters, warehouses, and other things miles away from tracks. Ron in BS said so.
:P
You're also clearly in denial about your motivation. So I win.
Do the world a favor and embrace the ancient Japanese art of hara-kiri.
And look what we got Pigs and Brian Weinberg to post.
:0)
No, it's not. People don't like your antics.
May your parents experience the sorrow of outliving their child.
LATIN : De gustibus non disputandum.(There is no disputing individual tastes.)
FRENCH : A chacun son gout.(To each, his own taste.)
Bill "Newkirk"
"Leaves of THREE, leave it be" ... three leaves are your warning sign not to get the oils on you ... figured I'd mention it since city folk tend to think "nature" is squirrels and bambi with an occasional black eyed susan that's been run over by a taxi. :)
But memorize the phrase, and look where you step. City folk are looking at their feet ANYWAY, might as well have something to LOOK for since doggie pies are probably out there too. (grin)
Heheheheheee...
A Tree Grows in Brooklyn
The (J) train had betters start going faster...
It is happening there too!
: ) Elias
If and when will there be a tour? Will there be a new topic discussion on this?
-Chris
Chuck
-Chris
If you download shareware, you get about 20 days to try it out before you decide to buy it, so it does not hurt to download several of them.
try www.tucows.com
Elias
I really like Amaya. It's W3C's own HTML editor, and it generates completely compliant HTML which will render correctly on any good browser. It even includes a spell checker for about a dozen languages :-)
Amaya is available on Windows, and Linux. The source code is available, and it should build on the Mac too.
Interesting tidbits:
1) I saw and talked with SubTalker Howard Fein at the MNR portal.
2) I'm pretty sure I saw an MNR covered wagon on the a$$ end of a two-unit light move hauling a$$ northbound.
3) I took pics on both sides of 98 St but didn't see the supposed "hole" in the fence. Does anyone see it in my pics?
Yours in railfanning,
Sir Ronald of McDonald
Of what? No pics or links to pics provided ....
You can get a really cool view of the trains one of the hospital lounges, not sure what floor though...
Really cool pics, thanks man!
Wasn't bad to use, just didn't had a grasp on the indoor, underground station pictures.
P.S.: can you offer me some tips re: how to paste the pix to the post once I get the disk back?
I'm obviously not the only one who likes to hang out at the 97th Street MN portal. It can be boring waiting for an inbound train to approach from 125th- although it's gratifying when the engineer blows his horn at you, which does happen from time to time. The most fun is the two-second rumble heard and felt before an outbound train emerges from the tunnel. It's more like a four-second rumble if it's a Bombardier diesel.
Other than publicized service changes, Subtalk, MOD, or museum events, this is the second time I can recall running into another Subtalker at random. On a Sunday afternoon in July '02, I shared a crowded PATH car from JSQ to 33 with two of them who were independent of each other.
There's a lot of people who both attend Subtalk events and Forgotten NY events. Common interests make for a lot of synergy between the two entities. Actually, there tends to be more Strappies than Subtalkers on Forgotten NY events. This is in no way meant to intimate any superiority or inferiority amongst Subtalk, Strappies or Forgotteners.
Likewise, it's inevitable to run into fellow Subtalkers at Branford, ERA meetings, MOD trips or major service changes like the revival of PATH service to the WTC. It'll probably be real easy to run into some whenever Coney Terminal reopens- especially if that bridge between platforms is still available to the public.
Not to name names, but I once ran into a fellow Subtalker near my office. Department of Ed headquarters is a block away from TA headquarters, and this person was undergoing training at the time. So that's not TOO surprising.
I've been to every Bus Roadeo since 2000, but somehow never ran into any Subtalkers to the best of my knowledge. I'm not one to approach someone with a camera taking a picture of a bus and say something like "You wouldn't be Trevor Logan, would you?" (As far as I know, I've never met Trevor in person despite having supposedly been on some of the same MOD trips.) I made a fool out of myself last month that way. I tried to strike up a conversation with someone I mistook for Lincoln (curly hair, shorts in February) while waiting for the 'Q diamond' at the outbound end at the Atlantic Avenue platform on the last day of its existence. The faux Lincoln must've thought I was nuts.
Obviously the 97th Street portal isn't a secret among us.
Well, right after you left and I started walking down to 98 St on the west side of the tracks, a northbound went by, followed by a southbound. Oh well.
You can probably use maps on this site figure out how to get there without further directions.
Between 7:45 and 8:45 AM there are approximately 80 trains (no, that's not a misprint) passing that spot.
The portal of the Park Avenue tunnel is located at 97 St & Park Avenue.
Your pal,
Fred
Assuming you just go out, hire a contractor and dig a hole, and stick some tracks in it, that is one thing.
If you need to get studies, engineering and environmental impacts, approvals, public hearings, and litigations, followed by revisions and more of the above, well then it is quite another.
Then you have to add the cost of the money.
And then you have to ask what is going to do once it gets there?
Is it just going to connect to the existing SIRT? Are you going to expand it?
SIRT runs only two or three trains an hour, to meet boat departures.
More customers than that it just does not have.
400 Billion is not on the far side of the moon.
Elias
Connect Bay Ridge R to SIRR: $15 billion.
In San Francisco the BART (IIRC) uses a tube laid on the bay floor somewhat like a garden hose, the idea being that it is less susiptable to damage in an earthquake.
Such a tunnel would be much cheaper, though I am told that it might interfere with ship movements.
Using the deep tunnel boring machine would be much more costly.
For the amount of traffic generated on SI, a single track tube would work jsut fine, and cost a lot less.
Elias
Concidering, it's New York Bay, which is relativly high traffic, the tunnel would have to be deep bore. The 63rd St tunnel, like the BART tunnel over the bay used the sink tunnel technology. It's good in low volume rivers such as the east river, but in Bay's where it's not that deep (New York Bay is pretty shallow) a deep bore tunnel is the best choice.
I never realized that! It looks pretty deep to me. : )
Concidering, it's New York Bay, which is relativly high traffic, the tunnel would have to be deep bore. The 63rd St tunnel, like the BART tunnel over the bay used the sink tunnel technology. It's good in low volume rivers such as the east river, but in Bay's where it's not that deep (New York Bay is pretty shallow) a deep bore tunnel is the best choice.
The choice of sunken tube over deep bore would be mostly based on geology not on the marine traffic in the shipping channel above. The tops of both of the sunken tube highway tunnels in Baltimore are well below the bottom of the shipping channel and in fact are covered with soil to protect them from dragging objects. The bart trans bay tunnels and the highway tunnels under the mouth of Chesapeake Bay between the Virginia lower eastern shore and Norfork Virginia are built in much the same way.
The cost of sunken tube over deep bore is again going to be based on geology. Deep bore in the bedrock would depend on how shallow the bedrock is along the path of the tunnels. The cost of digging a shield bored tunnel through the soil between the harbor bottom and the bedrock is also going to based on the geology.
So once you know the geology you have a better chance of determining what type of tunnel would be the best and or cheapest tunnel for a given type under water crossing.
This is why engineering studies are done base on the geology to find out what is most feasible at the lowest cost.
John
"This is a Smith & Wesson, now you've had your six"...
Newkirk Plaza David
Tunnel boring machines (TBM) have dramatically cut the cost of tunnels in recent engineering projects. I have heard of figures ranging from $20m to $100m per mile. How far is Staten Island? It can't be more than a mile away.
The manner in which you'd have to build it: because you're connecting a highly developed urban area with another, you almost certainly have to find a plot of land in downtown New York that is suitable for use as a staging area -- just so you can bore a shaft down to meet the TBM which will no doubt start digging from Staten Island. It'll probably need about an area the size of a city block. The project will probably take 2-3 years.
Anyone want to hazard a guess as to the lease on a city block, in Lower Manhattan, for 2-3 years?
AEM7
Battery Park to St George 5.31 miles. Owls Head to St George 2.49 miles. Ft Hamilton to Ft Wadsworth 1.26 miles.
Ahem... Try 5.36 miles (from existing rail head to existing rail head).
Elias
There would then be a direct LRT service from 42nd St UN and the WTC to SI.
With security concerns, I highly doubt that the area around the UN would ever see a subway station or any type of rail service. The buses [M15,27,42,50,104] will be the way to go.
The proposed fare hikes add up to perhaps 3 or four percent overall (depending on the share of monthly and weekly cards) after more than a year. That's exactly the kind of fare hike there should be every year, as long as the cost of TWU labor (including wages, health care and pensions) goes up. Every year.
We should never go eight years before a whopper ever again. Nor should we used debt and deferred costs to keep the fare down. Our future has been diminished by decisions to do both in the past.
Hey, I've been saying it all along. The 30-day cards are the best deals in the city, except for maybe the free Staten Island Ferry. So a couple-two-tree bucks per year raise is no big whoop in my book.
The question is how should the F and V be scheduled to depart 36th St so as not to have a merging conflict at 50th and 6th Ave.
If we assume that the minimum headways are 120 seconds (30 tph), then if a V train leaves 36th St one minute before an F train, then the F train will arrive 2 minutes behind the V at 50th St. HOWEVER, if the V is 1 minute ahead of the F it is also 1 minute behind the E that preceeded the F on the express track. It has got to wait 1 minute at Queens Plaza get 120 seconds behind the E in the 53rd St tunnel. This means the V will be only 1 minute ahead of the F not 2 minutes, at 50th St. So the V will block the F and delay it from getting into 50th St for one minute.
Suppose the V leaves 36th St 3 minutes after the F. The V will make up 1 minute on the F and arrive at 50th St 2 minutes behind the F. HOWEVER, it will arrive at Queens Plaza only one minute behind the E that followed the F on the express track. The V will have to wait an additional minute before it can enter the 53rd St tunnel. This means it will be 3 minutes, instead of 2 minutes, behind the F at 50th St. It also means that the V will be only 1 minute ahead of the following F. So the following F will be delayed for an additional minute.
The point is that there is no way that the V can merge with the E and then with the F without causing a 1 minute delay on the F and a 1 minute delay on the V. Great planning. :-)
But all of this doesn't decrease the capacity of QB.
Arti
All other parameters being equal,
capacity goes up as travel speed goes down, until the point
at which speed is so slow that the arrival rate of passengers
at a station overwhelms it.
As an extreme example, you would achieve 100% track space
utilization if the subway consisted of continuous trains of
flatcars moving slowly enough that people could safely step on
and off them at speed.
To increase both capacity and schedule speed at the same time
requires improving acceleration and braking profiles.
I've been told that the emergency brake rates were put back to
pre-1991 values after the NTSB report. The emergency rate is
currently 3.2, which meets original specs. If you recall, the NTSB
report found that the emergency rate on the R42s involved was
down around 2.0
It seems to me that the emergency rates have been adjusted back
upward, and many of the most problematic control lines have been
lengthened, so do we really need CBTC to get back to pre-1995
speeds?
Yes it does, you're just looking on the wrong track. The local should also be able to handle 30 tph. That's not possible, if one holds the V at Queens Plaza for 1 minute.
In order to maintain 30 tph on the local track, one must time the arrival of the V, when the E isn't there. That is, it must leave 36th St, with the F. This guarantees that the F will have to wait 1 minute at 50th St.
However, things should go smoothly at Queens Plaza. At t = 0, 4, 8,.. both an E and an R will arrive at Queens Plaza. At t = 2, 6, 10,... a V will arrive at Queens Plaza.
Problems start when an E arrives early. The V crossing in front will force the E to enter Queens Plaza at 5 mph. There are two ways that an E could be early. It might make up time by travelling faster of reducing its dwell time at previous stations. The more common way for the TA, is to write schedules with unrealistically long travel times. An E travelling at normal speed will arrive at Queens Plaza in time to watch the V get "priority" over it.
Right. I didn't look at the local track, because the capacity problems excist on express track only. So at least right, now the problem, that this arrangement decreases local capacity is irrelevant, as it's not needed anyway.
Arti
Are you saying that the F actually takes about a minute longer than the V, and the increased distance is the reason why, or that the F has a longer trip than the V, and therefore one would expect the F to take about a minute longer than the V?
If the latter, you've neglected to take into account the higher dwell times at the busier stations along the V's route.
There are an equal number of E's and F's. There are the same number of merging conflicts.
OTOH, if you are referring to the fact that there are fewer V's (10 tph) than either E's or F's (15 tph), then you are neglecting the conflicts generated by unbalanced merges. Assume that E's arrive at Queens Plaza at: 0, 4, 8, 12, 16, 20, .. etc. Then have V's arrive at: 2, 8, 14, 20,... Half the V's conflict with the E, resulting in a 2 minute hold. I've already established that all the V's will delay an F at 50th.
What are the recent rule changes?
If the latter, you've neglected to take into account the higher dwell times at the busier stations along the V's route.
Are you implying that if difference between the travel times via 53rd St and 63rd St were less than a minute that there would be less of a merging conflict? Analyze the math a little. You want the travel times to differ by a multiple of the minimum headway to eliminate merging delays. One minute or less doesn't hack it.
I meant to say an odd multiple of the minimum headway.
This also points out the problem with doing multiple merges - eliminating confilcts also depends on the minimum headway. Merely increasing headways does not eliminate delays.
Stop #1: V - Queens Plaza; F - 21-Queensbridge
Stop #2: V - 23-Ely; F - Roosevelt Is
Stop #3: V - Lex-53; F - Lex-63
Stop #4: V - 5 Av-53; F - 57-6 Av
Stop #5: V - 50-6 Av; F - 50-6 Av
the V has to proceed at a restricted speed over the crossover leaving Q P and although I haven't been through the area in a while, I would imagine that the speed over the crossover at 36 St into the connector is a bit highter that that over the crossover S/O Q P.
I assume you are trying to refute my assertion that the connector takes around a minute longer. You are neglecting the switch that the F has to take to get onto the 6th Ave local track just north of 50th St. The V has a straight shot. Whatever time would be lost by the V moving from the local to the express at QP would be compensated by the F moving onto the local between 57 and 50.
Actually, though, you really wouldn't want the F and V to have the same running time between 36 St and 50 St, since the V shouldn't be in a position to conflict with the E at Q P.
I did not say it should. I stated that the headway has to be an odd multiple of the difference in travel times (and vice-versa) to avoid merging conflicts. Since the difference in travel times 1 minute, headways that would eliminate merging conficts would be 1, 3, 5,... minutes. The practical problem is that 1 minute headways are not possible and 3 minute headways (for combined E/F) are inadequate.
If the difference in travel time were 2 minutes then scheduling would be fairly simple. The F and V would leave together from 36th St (on separate tracks). The V would arrive at QP 2 minutes between 2 E's. The V would arrive at 50th 2 minutes ahead of the F it left with at 36th. The same principle holds for travel time differences of 6, 10, etc. OTOH, if the time difference were an even multiple of the headway, say 4 minutes, then there will be confilcts at 50th, QP or both. N.B. 0 is an even number.
If the V left 36 St at the same time as the F, and even if the running time were the same it would probably only necessary to hold the F at 57 St for 1 to 2 min max in order to make the necessary clearance.
No, it would be necessary to avoid a collision - no probably about it.
Of course the problem of having the headway tied to a difference in running time goes away, if the V used the connector and both the E and F used 53rd St. Then regardless of any headway for the E/F, one can schedule the V to arrive exactly between two F's at 50th.
In any event, any time multiple services run on common track on unmatching headways there is always potential for an unavoidable conflict, and good schedule making can mitigate the unfavorable effects.
What do you mean by unmatched headways? Do you mean unbalanced headways - different headways for each service? If so, then there isn't a "potential for a confilct"; it's a certainty. No scheduling of any kind can mitigate its effect.
Well, yes, that would have been the sensible way to do it from
a signaling/operations standpoint, but then NO ONE would take
the V except a handful of QB local passengers going to the
east side in the 63 st vicinity.
Another possible service alignment would have been to send
some broadway express trains (e.g. Q service) via 63 St,
then express in Queens to 179 St. That would have been a
popular train with QB riders. Even better would be to
turn that service back at Continental and extend the R
to 179, but with the current regulations concerning cleaning out trains before they relay, it would be impossible. Likewise,
having a broadway express service that switches over at Prince
and then runs down to Whitehall would be a popular service
from Queens, but it would create a backup at the crossover.
That's conjecture. NYCDOT's 1980's Queens-Manhattan study indicated that the R had the lowest load level of any of the Queens-Manhattan services. Was this due to the fact that it was a local service or was it due to its destination? I would have thought some followup would have been in order before proposing the connector. The TA's solution was to introduce a service with and even lower load level.
OTOH, if your conjecture is correct, then you've just killed the SAS because half the trains out of 125th are supposed to use Broadway.
Another possibility would be to divide QB into two separate zones: to Forest Hills and to Jamaica and make Roosevelt Ave a local stop. That should effectively negate the local service hangup many QB riders have. Local services would use 6th Ave and Bway via 63rd and 60th Streets, while express services would use 8th and 6th Aves via 53rd St.
When in the 1980s? That was a period of frequent change for the
R. It didn't even exist until 1987, prior to that the N ran to
Forest Hills and the RR ran to Astoria. Then there was the
experimentation with running the R to 179 that came and went.
Once the 51-Lex connector opened (1989?) a large number of R
riders abandoned it in favor of the E or F.
To me the biggest hidden jewel of the Queens Blvd line was the
Crosstown link. With a little "marketing", I think more riders
with downtown Brooklyn or lower Manhattan destinations could have
been persuaded to take it. Instead, the perception that the GG
was a deserted line to nowhere that ran through bad neighborhoods
was allowed to persist, and the line's demise as a QB service became
a self-fulfilling prophecy.
OTOH, if your conjecture is correct, then you've just killed the SAS because half the trains out of 125th are
supposed to use Broadway.
Are you talking about the Second Ave STUBway? Where do the other
trains go?
Another possibility would be to divide QB into two separate zones: to Forest Hills and to Jamaica and make
Roosevelt Ave a local stop.
Zoned expresses were looked at. But Roosevelt as a local stop?
That seems illogical, considering how many people enter there.
A more radical solution would have been to re-use the abandoned
Roosevelt Ave Winfield branch station and tunnels as tail tracks
for turning back local service. Then at least empty trains
can originate at Roosevelt, which would be very useful in the AM rush.
So instead of closing Roosevelt express platforms, close the passage.
Arti
My mistake, the report was issued in 1992.
Are you talking about the Second Ave STUBway? Where do the other trains go?
The SAS' latest incarnation is a from 125th to Water. Half the trains would go all the way from 125th to Water (12 tph) and the other half would use the 63rd St connection from 125th and use the BMT express tracks.
If your talking just about the stubway (north of 63rd St), then you've just killed the SAS by sending the BMT expresses to Queens Blvd.
A more radical solution would have been to re-use the abandoned Roosevelt Ave Winfield branch station and tunnels as tail tracks for turning back local service. Then at least empty trains can originate at Roosevelt, which would be very useful in the AM rush.
It would be useful for the wrong part of the local line. The busiest local stations are between Forest Hills and Woodhaven. Turning trains back at Roosevelt won't help.
In conjunction with a full-length 2 Ave subway, trains from
Queens via 63 St should go south, some trains from uptown should
go downtown via Bway or 6 Ave. But do you REALLY think it
will happen?
It would be useful for the wrong part of the local line. The busiest local stations are between Forest Hills and
Woodhaven. Turning trains back at Roosevelt won't help.
As a daily rider of the line, I'd have to disagree. There is a sea
of humanity at Roosevelt Ave and generally not much room on the
trains for them. If you could provide gap trains that originate
there, that would free things up quite a bit.
Years ago during the AM rush there were several E and F trains
that were put-ins at Continental.
I will yield to your first hand knowledge. However, how many of those people on the platform are trying to change for local and expeess; how many are transferring from the Flushing line and how many got on at Roosevelt?
Years ago during the AM rush there were several E and F trains that were put-ins at Continental.
I remember them. They were started when express train lengths were cut from 11 to 10 cars. Did you think the TA increased service?
All of the above. Southbound, the amount of transfers from
local to express has gone down a lot with the V, based on
the principle of making the other choice less attractive.
The F now skips the important IRT connection, and as a result
the Es are so crowded that it is frequently impossible to
get on at Roosevelt. So, I see a lot more local riders staying
put. The Rs are a lot more crowded than before and there is
a mass exodus at Lex.
The 7 connection generates a large volume of incoming passengers
at Roosevelt, as does the station itself, which is central
to the densely populated Jackson Heights neighborhood and serves
a number of feeder bus routes.
Again, if it were possible to do gap trains that came down
that ramp and went into service on D1 track at Roosevelt,
that would clean up the platforms a lot.
In the couple of times times I have ridden the V, and the many times I have ridden the F and the E, I have not experienced having my train stop and wait in the tunnel for a preceding train when headed into 50th Street. Rarely have I experienced excessive dwell times unrelated to passenger boarding. This does not mean it doesn't happen.
But it does cast doubt on how well your theory translates into practice (unfortunately, your record there is very poor). :0(
Unless they change it, some of the trains are in the same location at the same time on the draft TT.
LOL
I fail to understand how an E train cannot clear the interlocking in one minute. Or conversely, how a V train can't clear the 50th st interlocking in one minute.
This is a headway problem. The minimum headway between trains on single track can be a minimum of 120 seconds.
I fail to understand how an E train cannot clear the interlocking in one minute. Or conversely, how a V train can't clear the 50th st interlocking in one minute.
It takes about a minute to clear an interlocking, if everything goes right. The interlockingis around 150 feet long and trains are 600 feet long. Thus, a train has to travel 750 feet to clear an interlocking. That comes to 51 seconds at 10 mph. It takes about 8 seconds for the new, improved, slow acting electric switches to change position. Somewhere the tower operator has to be alerted.
That's the minimum scheduled headway. I've seen 4 trains in 6 minutes.
That comes to 51 seconds at 10 mph.
This assumes that the train must travel 10mph across the interlocking. Note that:
1. Both of your interlockings in this example have one straight line-up, taken at 'full' speed.
2. Trains usually go faster than 10mph on interlockings. One interlocking I observed frequently had trains doing 16mph.
I think I generally agree with your post on this topic, in that E,F,V will probably always conflict because you have a three-way merge. However, I don't think such conflicts are avoidable. The headways are dictated by loads and not by schedules; the schedules can "re-space" some of the trains after the merge to avoid the bunching effect associated with the conflicts. I can't comment further without more information as to exactly what kind of headways we are talking about here.
It's not a 3-way merge. There isn't a point where 3 different services on 3 separate tracks join into a single track.
E and F services merge together from spearate tracks at Continental. At the 36th-QP interlocking the F diverges from the E onto a separate track and the V merges with the E from another separate track and takes the F's timeslot. The E and V proceed together on the same track (53rd) and the F proceeds on a separate track (63rd). At the 5th Av-50th St interlocking the E and V diverge onto separate tracks and the V joins the F. The V takes the E's timeslot, when it rejoins the F. However, the V took the F's timeslot when it merged with the E, so it must mutate from an F's timeslot to an E's timeslot. This can occur if the difference in travel times from 36th to the 50th St interlockings is an odd multiple of the headway or vice-versa.
A completely analogous, though opposite, situation can be constructed with only 2 services. Suppose services A and B are merged on track. At interlocking #1 the two services diverge onto separate routes. These two routes merge at interlocking #2. If the two separate routes took exactly the same time, then there would be no merging conficts at interlocking #2. There would also be no conflicts, if the travel time difference between the two separate routes were an even multiple of the combined headway of the A and B before interlocking #1.
The headways are dictated by loads and not by schedules;
I beg to differ. Loads should dictate schedules. Schedules should dictate headways. Schedules should account for travel time, dwell time and merges.
the schedules can "re-space" some of the trains after the merge to avoid the bunching effect associated with the conflicts
Non-uniform headways result from unbalanced merges. There should be no need for "re-spacing" trains, if there are balanced merges. Unequal demand for different services can be handled with balanced merges by using different train lengths.
I can't comment further without more information as to exactly what kind of headways we are talking about here.
The system is operating at nominal capacity, when there are merged services on a single track.
This is actually pretty good analysis, but it's also non-stochastic analysis (means it assumes each trainset travel at the same speed, have same dwell time at every station, etc). I looked at the E,F,V service map yesterday after I posted, and now with your explanation the situation has become a lot clearer. I would assert that delays are inevitable in this case, not because of the timeslot isssue but an issue of reliability.
Here is the argument:
(1) The first E,F merge is fine -- let's assume this merge can work based on departing trains at terminals at exactly the right times, and not too much variation in running times between E,F terminals and the merge (which is probably true, given that there is only 3~4 stations between the terminal and the merge).
(2) At 36th St., where E,F diverge and E,V merge, you'll have a problem. The V needs to take a timeslot for the train regulation and headways to work properly, but it has some 10 stops before it gets to the junction. That means you can't really be sure when V will arrive at that junction. If you schedule using an average, it means your V will miss its slot 50% of the time. So you have to schedule in some "padding" time just before the junction, to ensure that V makes its slot. Usually, the padding brings the run-time up to the 85th-percentile running time. That means 85% of the trains will be held before entering 36th St. If this is what you mean by "delay", it is intentional.
(3) Your next merge, which is at 50th, there is a problem because the F needs to mutate from V's timeslot to E's timeslot. This problem is fixed by smart holding just after 57th St. Since V was held already just before 36th St., you would expect V,E to carry roughly even headways by the time it gets to 50th. That means you basically have to hold the F -- because if you hold the V, it will screw up headways on the E further down the line. Again, at this point you need F's 85th-percentile running time, and not average running time. Although the F is an express, that one hold is needed for entry into the "downtown" portion of the system, i.e. between 50th and 4 St.
[The headways are dictated by loads and not by schedules;]
I beg to differ. Loads should dictate schedules. Schedules should dictate headways. Schedules should account for travel time, dwell time and merges.
That's not usually the way it works. Because loads are stocastic, it is usually impossible to custom-fit a schedule to given load. Hence the need for headway service, i.e. "every 6 mins until xx.xx". Once you have the headway service, schedules result -- you basically have no choice over the schedules. If you have very busy periods, then it makes sense to go to a shorter headway; if you assume passenger loads will follow a normal distribution, then you might change the headway slightly over time to account for that. If you decide to schedule trains based on uneven or too rapidly changing headways, bunching will result. (Unless you hold all trains to their running times exactly, so even when it runs early it is held until its timeslot has elapsed).
Non-uniform headways result from unbalanced merges.
Or stocastic nature of passenger loads.
There should be no need for "re-spacing" trains,
There will be a need, unless there were no passengers and running times were determinant.
Unequal demand for different services can be handled with balanced merges by using different train lengths.
Costs. Usually cheaper to run fixed formation and vary the frequency, rather than changing train lengths. The Boston Red Line has a problem like this with their merge, and it's an unbalanced merge, but there's really no way around it because the Braintree branch is so much heavier than the Ashmont branch. Sending a train with any less than six cars into the tunnel is just a waste of precious track capacity.
AEM7
My experience has been that it is better to study before posting. :-)
it's also non-stochastic analysis
That depends on whether or not the schedule takes into account the stochastic nature of the process. BTW, my own measurements indicate that operator variability is as important as loading time variations.
If you schedule using an average, it means your V will miss its slot 50% of the time.
You're not really saying anything because you are not saying by how much. You've got to bring in the concept of both a confidence interval, as well as a confidence level to make a meaningful statement.
So you have to schedule in some "padding" time just before the junction, to ensure that V makes its slot. Usually, the padding brings the run-time up to the 85th-percentile running time. That means 85% of the trains will be held before entering 36th St. If this is what you mean by "delay", it is intentional.
Techniques for removing variability pad schedules. The question is where and by how much. Your thesis is that one should permit the trains to operate with little supervision until a critical point (the merge) and then make a big correction. The limit to such an approach is when the magitude of the expected correction comes close to the headway.
Systems that operate at close to theoretical capacity take a for more proactive approach. They make mini-corrections throughout the run. Thus the behavior at any station is similar to that statiom being the first and only station on the line. Any "intentional delays" are not noticed because they are so minor.
I've assumed that such an approach would be taken with the E, V and F. The point is that this approach will not work because of the double merge that are necesary to create these routes. It's not a good policy because it locks non-delaying headways to discrete increments. In this case, it's either a 1 minute or a 3 minute headway. The first cannot be achieved and the second is inadequate.
Because loads are stocastic, it is usually impossible to custom-fit a schedule to given load. Hence the need for headway service, i.e. "every 6 mins until xx.xx".
That mindset certainly relieves schedule makers of any thinking. However, many processes are statistically controlled to an extent that makes one forget that they are stochastic. Such techniques have been applied in heavy rail with very good results. They just are not used in North America.
Usually cheaper to run fixed formation and vary the frequency, rather than changing train lengths.
Most lines in NYC have dedicated fleets. There already is some degree of sizing train length to demand. For example, the C line uses 480 foot long trains, instead of 600 footers. This used to be the norm, many years ago, E's and F's were 660 feet long, A's and D's were 600 feet long, CC's were 540 feet long and BB's were 420 feet long. All these services each operated at 4 minute headways with 30 tph on merged track. The result was a relatively constant load level througout the system with no perceptible merging delays.
Sending a train with any less than six cars into the tunnel is just a waste of precious track capacity.
There's a slightly different rationale for the ideal case. Suppose passengers enter trains on the branches and depart on the merged portion. There's no waste of of track capacity on the merged section because additional cars are not required for either service. Running maximum length cars on both branches would be a misuse of expensive car equipment. The V currently uses 600 foot trains. Their leave load level entering the 53rd St Tunnel was last reported at 49% during rush hours.
I would tend to agree with you. But operator variability is something that schedulers have to live with; not something that schedulers can either assume away or expect operations to 'fix'.
[If you schedule using an average, it means your V will miss its slot 50% of the time.]
You're not really saying anything because you are not saying by how much...
The usual way to express distributions of train times is using percentiles. An average running time doesn't tell you very much, I agree, in that you don't know what the variability is. On the other hand, if I knew two data points: the average running time, and the 85th-percentile running time, then I can make a pretty good schedule. Of course, it would be nicer if I knew the average running time, the standard deviation of the running time, and the skew of the distribution. But I don't need that if all I need to do is make sure that the merging trains make their slots. If I use the 85th-percentile run time, it means only 15% of the trains will not make their slots. It also means 85% of the trains will be held at the junction for an indeterminate amount of time, but that really doesn't matter, even if that indeterminate amount of time approaches the service headway.
It is not uncommon, on low-headway lines, for trains have to hold at an intermediate stop for more than the headway, especially when you have bunching. Holding trains en-route is actually a highly effective corrective action provided that you haven't tried to schedule more trains than the signal system will physically handle. Assuming you are running close to nominal capacity, failure to hold the train that is running more than 1 headway ahead can result in a large service gap behind this train.
Techniques for removing variability pad schedules. The question is where and by how much. Your thesis is that one should permit the trains to operate with little supervision until a critical point (the merge) and then make a big correction.
Correct. That is my thesis. I also happen to believe that it is effective. You need to sequence the trains correctly at merges or critical points such as places where you can make short-turns, places where you can add "gap trains" (or what we call "headers"), and at major transfer points where there are timed transfers. Given the kind of control systems that the NYCTA has (discrete signal boxes), there is simply no way you can control how each train is running on a train-by-train and stop-by-stop basis. For that degree of control you need a bunch of dispatchers and a centralized control center that is capable of dialling MAS of individual trains down if they were running ahead. Look to Tren Urbano for a Siemens implementation of that concept.
I've assumed that such an approach would be taken with the E, V and F.
It won't work. How would you make sure every signal box is on the same page? How many supervisors do you need? How many radio channels do you need for them to talk to each other? If you want to run entirely on schedules, what happens when you have an incident?
It's not a good policy because it locks non-delaying headways to discrete increments. In this case, it's either a 1 minute or a 3 minute headway. The first cannot be achieved and the second is inadequate.
"non-delaying headways to discrete increments"... you lost me somewhere there.
That mindset certainly relieves schedule makers of any thinking. However, many processes are statistically controlled to an extent that makes one forget that they are stochastic. Such techniques have been applied in heavy rail with very good results.
Name an example.
Just so you know, on the former British Rail, we employed a number of train regulation techniques. Not by nudging the schedules; in fact, the schedules were almost always perfectly uniform, along with "padding". The only exceptions are near the ends of the lines when slight early-running w.r.t. to perfectly regular headways would not cause problems.
The reason to use a regular schedule is not to relieve the schedule makers of any serious thought. It is to relieve the travellers who read timetables of any serious thought. If you have ever tried to ride the Metra IC Electric, you'd appreciate having a "clockface" headway service.
There's a slightly different rationale for the ideal case. Suppose passengers enter trains on the branches and depart on the merged portion.
But that's a gross over-simplification. The fact is that even on the merged portion, there is significant passenger "on" activity: both from major transfer points and from people living in inner city neighbourhoods doing a crosstown commute. In fact, the more I thought about the MBTA Red Line operations, the more it made sense to have uneven merges. In the morning rush, if you make empricial observation of headways at Columbia Rd., you will see an average Ashmont-Braintree headway of around 2.0 minutes while the Braintree-Ashmont headway is around 4.0 minutes. The reason this makes sense is because Ashmont trains are usually SRO by the time it hits Columbia, but Braintree trains are usually crush loaded. Since the crush loaded B train will spend more time dwelling, and the A train has more room to pick up local passengers, it makes sense to leave a 4 min gap ahead of the A (to collect 66% of the local passengers), and to leave a 2 min gap ahead of the B (to collect the remaining 33%). By the time the trains hit Harvard Sq., the headways are about even. Of course, this doesn't always work, and you still get bunching towards the Alewife end of the line, but nothing there cannot be cured if you put in a holding point at Park St.
AEM7
My mistake. The 85% percentile corresponds to 1.04 standard deviations above the average for a normal distribution, according to the great Lord Burrington.
Correct. That is my thesis. I also happen to believe that it is effective. You need to sequence the trains correctly at merges or critical points such as places where you can make short-turns, places where you can add "gap trains" (or what we call "headers"), and at major transfer points where there are timed transfers.
Do you ever look at what happens to the places in between these critical points? Suppose you averaged over all stations the deviation from the norm, how would your strategy hold up? You are essentially saying that you don't care how far behind or ahead individual trains get, just so long as they don't crash into one another. You are not looking at things from the customer's perspective.
Given the kind of control systems that the NYCTA has (discrete signal boxes), there is simply no way you can control how each train is running on a train-by-train and stop-by-stop basis.
Oh yes there is. Both Moscow and Paris have come up with elegant solutions without recourse to bleeding edge nirvana technology.
But that's a gross over-simplification.
Agreed.
you will see an average Ashmont-Braintree headway of around 2.0 minutes while the Braintree-Ashmont headway is around 4.0 minutes.
Something is wrong. You are stating that there will be 3 trains on the merged section in a 4 minute period. That comes to an average 80 sec headway or 45 tph.
Correct. In fact, not much really happens between critical points. If you have a service whose nominal headway is somewheres between 5 and 10 minutes, then the chances are the perturbation between critical points (I call those control-points) will not push it off schedule to the point of causing serious service disruption. Bunching will occur, if the number of station stops between control points exceed about 3 or 4, but it rarely gets so bad that things are unfixable by the time you get to the control point. If you end up with excessively long holds at the control point, then you should consider adding one intermediate control point. In fact, there should be far smaller number of control points than station stops. That's the only way the control points will be effective and controlled. You simply can't expect a train operator to time down to anything less than about half minute, and if you expect half-minute accuracy from train operators, you need to provide a clock at the departure point at every time point where the train operator could see. This is not the case at most U.S. transit properties.
You are not looking at things from the customer's perspective.
Customers? What are those? No, but honestly, headway degradation doesn't usually get so bad between timepoints. If it does, then your time points are too far apart.
[no way you can control how each train is running on a train-by-train and stop-by-stop basis]
Oh yes there is. Both Moscow and Paris have come up with elegant solutions without recourse to bleeding edge nirvana technology.
They also pay their supervisors about $2 per hour. The less the rate of pay, the less technology you would need because your labor would be more cost-effective than the capital payment on the technology. In North America, it's not generally cost effective to put so many supervisors on line that you can exercise that level of control. It is only cost effective if it can be done with train control technology.
[you will see an average Ashmont-Braintree headway of around 2.0 minutes while the Braintree-Ashmont headway is around 4.0 minutes.]
Something is wrong. You are stating that there will be 3 trains on the merged section in a 4 minute period. That comes to an average 80 sec headway or 45 tph.
I'm sorry, I think I didn't explain myself clearly. The combined headway is on average every 3 mins, but the headway after a Braintree train has passed, and before an Ashmont train would come, is 4.0 mins, while the reverse (after A, before B) is 2.0 mins.
AEM7
"They also pay their supervisors about $2 per hour."
Very probably true in Moscow. Certainly not true in Paris, which is a high-cost city.
What criteria is used to determine a bad degradation?
if you expect half-minute accuracy from train operators, you need to provide a clock at the departure point at every time point where the train operator could see. This is not the case at most U.S. transit properties.
It is in Moscow and Paris.
They also pay their supervisors about $2 per hour.
You're assuming additional layers of supervision are required. Not correct in this case.
The combined headway is on average every 3 mins, but the headway after a Braintree train has passed, and before an Ashmont train would come, is 4.0 mins, while the reverse (after A, before B) is 2.0 mins.
That's a balanced merge with non-uniform headways not an unbalanced merge.
BTW, according to the MTA's website, rush hour headways are 8 minutes on each branch for a combined 4 minute headway. Have you traced the source of this discrepency?
Customer, n., a person who buys something from a shop. See also PASSENGER.
I beg to differ. Loads should dictate schedules. Schedules should dictate headways. Schedules should account for travel time, dwell time and merges.
How can a schedule can dictate headways? Headways goes by demand and ridership volume for service so tell us how it is the opposite. Schedules are approximate times from terminal A to terminal B with time points in between so since the subway system is unpredictable, any schedule can be thrown right out the window the minute there is a breakdown, derailment, door holding etc. In the case of the E and V merging at 53 St, the schedule for the E is shot if a V comes in and arrives at 5 Av before the E and as we know, the V usually gets the priority even though its more sensible to run the express ahead of the local.
Non-uniform headways result from unbalanced merges. There should be no need for "re-spacing" trains, if there are balanced merges. Unequal demand for different services can be handled with balanced merges by using different train lengths.
While I could agree that there is no need to respace trains, what does train lengths have to do with merging in this case? They're all ~600 foot trains [there is no discussion on the G here, at least not yet]. Maybe they should find a way to speed up the time it takes to clear an interlocking since redesigning them to flying crossovers for example would be costly. For example, they could increase the speed of a switch to 20mph from the normal 10-15 if possible.
Exceptions: The C, L, J/Z, and M are all 480 foot trains, the shuttle trains are a moot point. Except for the L, the subway lines mentioned do merge with other lines.
Now I just went overboard right there. But there is one thing we all can agree on the Queens Blvd line, it has the dubious distinction of have the SSSSSSSLLLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWEST timer in the entire system (even slower than the J from Alabama to Broadway Junction).
I don't have to tell you where the timer is, but we all know it applies when a Manhattan bound V train is in that station. Riding on the E line is just torture of going through those timers.
That definition of "schedule" fails to meet the TA's legal requirements which are:
16-a. The authority shall establish and publish or cause to be published schedules for all passenger transportation services under its operation. Such schedules shall include the estimated departure and arrival time at each terminal point of each route except that, on lines where the headway time during the period between six A.M. and seven P.M. is less than ten minutes, such headway time alone may be listed for that period. Such schedules shall also show the elapsed running time between the terminal and each station. Schedules shall be made available at each facility on the applicable route at which tokens or tickets are sold and shall be posted at each appropriate station operated by the authority.
since the subway system is unpredictable,
If a system appears to be "unpredictable" the usual remedy is to break the system down into smaller sub-systems, each of which is predictable. In the case of running the E, F and V from their terminals to the 36th St interlocking, it means monitoring and correcting them more frequently. For example, if the V's arrival at 36th St is "unpredictable", what about its arrival at Roosevelt? If Roosevelt is also "unpredictable" then what about its arrival at 63rd? If 63rd is still "unpredictable", then what about 67th? If 67th is more predictable than 63rd, then correct the departure from 67th so that the arrival at 63rd is also more predictable. Continue making corrections according to a realistic schedule, so that the V's as predictable in its arrival as it was at 67th.
Predictability assumes both a confidence level and an interval. To illustrate, I can predict with 99.99% certainty that a V will arrive at 36th within 2 days of its departure from Forest Hills. That's not very useful. I should also be able to predict with 99.99% certainty that it will arrive 67th within 5 seconds of its average travel time. I also know that loading time at 67th varies but at any given time of day it has actual, average, 85th percentile, 95th percentile loading times. I'll choose the scheduled departure from 67th to include the average travel time + 5 seconds from Forest Hills plus the 85th percentile loading time. I'd expect the train to be able to leave 67th at this time 85% of the time and I'd expect it never to leave any earlier. I'd do the same for 63rd, only now the V's arrival at 63rd would be far more predictible than it ever was by not controlling its departure from 67th. The most important determinant of loading time, for a given time of day, is the time the waiting time between trains. Controlling train departures from each and every station makes such waiting times predictible.
What is it with this obsession with making train schedules predictable? Sure, controlling the departure process at every station would be very nice, but why is it important? You do realize that controlling the railroad like that will have implications:
Your costs will go up, because your asset and crew utilization will go down. Usually, the time between the average run time and the 95th-percentile runtime (upon which the turn-back schedule is based) at the terminus is considered crew break time. Given the prevailing labor agreements in the U.S., there is rarely provision of paid breaks and this "recovery" time is sacred cow. If you really held train at every station, then you will need to build in additional recovery time both for the asset, and the crew who will demand them in their labor agreements for explicit paid breaks. Now, I am not advocating the MBTA practice of allowing every vehicle to proceed as fast as possible to the terminus, but I am saying that you do realize this obsession with control will cost you, big time, both in real dollars, and in lost values of slowing down passengers' journeys. There is a balance to be achieved here, and holding every train to 85th-percentile at every station is clearly going too far! In some cases, it clearly makes sense for fast trains to run ahead of schedule; in other cases it does not. It is important to differentiate between the two.
AEM7
Most terminals have limited holding capacity. It's outgoing departure times and not an incoming train's arrival time that determines how much time a crew's break time. The result of devising schedules with bloated running times with no intermediate corrective action to slow down trains results in a long line of trains outside the terminal.
You have not said anything without relating the difference between average run time and 95th percentile time to the headway. If a system were resonably predictable and that difference were 20 seconds, then crews would not expect much of a break based on that difference. OTOH, if that difference were greater than the number of headway times that the terminal could hold, it would not be a realistic strategy for achieving reasonable break times because their break time would be spent in the cab waiting to get into the terminal.
Given the prevailing labor agreements in the U.S., there is rarely provision of paid breaks and this "recovery" time is sacred cow.
Perhaps some TWU shop steward could help us out. My impression is that operating crews are essentially paid an hourly rate based on when they checkin and when they checkout. They are not paid a piece goods rate - by the number of hours spent operating a train.
I am not advocating the MBTA practice of allowing every vehicle to proceed as fast as possible to the terminus,
That's pretty much the TA's rush hour strategy, with a few exceptions to avoid collisions at merge points. If one takes headway, tailway and waiting time measurements, one finds that variability increases throught the run.
I am saying that you do realize this obsession with control will cost you, big time, both in real dollars, and in lost values of slowing down passengers' journeys. There is a balance to be achieved here, and holding every train to 85th-percentile at every station is clearly going too far!
Let Tn be the time from when a departs from station n-1 until it departs from station n. Tn is a random variable with a mean and variance. Moreover, the set of random variables, Ti are statistically independent of one another. The time to travel from station 0 to station n, T, would be:
T = T1 + T2 + ... + Tn.
The random variable T has a mean E(T) and a variance V(T).
E(T) = E(T1) + E(T2) + ... + E(Tn)
V(T) = V(T1) + V(T2) + ... + V(Tn)
Consider two different strategies to get from station 0 to station n+1. Strategy 1: operate without control to station n and wait for the 85th percentile time (from station 0 to station n) before proceeding to station n+1. Strategy 2: do not leave any station until that station's 85th percentile time. Which strategy's train will arrive at station n+1 in less time? The answer is they both take exactly the same time. The variance determines the 85th percentile time. The only difference is that any macro correction made at station n in strategy 1 is diffused over n stations. There is no overall time penalty nor costs associated with such a time penalty for making micro adjustments.
Limited holding capacity is not THAT limited. A standard stub-end terminal can absorb 2 headways worth of delays without delaying any incoming train (if operated on one track only, 1 headway worth of delays). A standard relay terminal can absorb nearly 3 headways; relay terminal operated on both tracks can absorb nearly 4 headways, and relay terminals operated with out-of-order train departures, or relays with both front and back crossovers, can absorb even more. Granted, in very high frequency operations, the varience of runtimes can easily exceed 4 headways. But that's what intermediate control points are for, as we discussed previously. But intermediate control points should not be at every station.
The result of devising schedules with bloated running times with no intermediate corrective action to slow down trains results in a long line of trains outside the terminal.
I agree, in principle. My beef with you is that intermediate corrective action is not required except at major transfer points, points where corrective action can be taken (e.g. short turns, expresses, addition of "gap trains" or "headers").
[Given the prevailing labor agreements in the U.S., there is rarely provision of paid breaks and this "recovery" time is sacred cow.]
Perhaps some TWU shop steward could help us out. My impression is that operating crews are essentially paid an hourly rate based on when they checkin and when they checkout.
That doesn't mean they do not take, or are not entitled, to paid breaks during the period when they are on the clock.
Let Tn be the time from when a departs from station n-1 until it departs from station n. Tn is a random variable with a mean and variance. Moreover, the set of random variables, Ti are statistically independent of one another.
This is where you erred. The set of variables Ti are far from independent from each other. Firstly, there is this effect called "bunching", where a train that runs late will tend to run later and later, and those that run early will tend to run earlier and earlier, for reasons related to boarding processes and systematic differences between individual T/O's. Let's call this "Effect 1".
Secondly, if a train was held at stop (n-1) to its scheduled time, resulting in holding time of "Hn", although "Tn" may not have changed by a great deal (due to Effect 1), the "sum of Ti from 1 to n" would have increased by "Hn". The net result is that the shape of distribution of train arrivals at the terminal would have changed; it would be compressed to the right, since no train will arrive early, and more trains will arrive late, increasing the average travel time, and thereby increasing asset and crew requirements.
Thus train-holding should be kept to a minimum, except to maintain reasonable headways and for operational purposes (e.g. to allow correct sequencing of trains at junctions).
AEM7
The capacity is not that good, when turnaround time is considered. A train has to pass over the interlocking inbound, recharge brakes and pass over the interlocking outbound. That comes to 220 seconds for a terminal ending in a bumper block. That provides a 20 second cushion for 4 minute headways. So, the total delay absorbtion that a 2-track stub-end terminal can provide is only 1 headway + 20 seconds, provided one does not consider interlocking clearance problems.
However, the concern is not late arriving trains but ones that arrive "early" with respect to a padded schedule.
The current schedules show rush hour schedules average 1 1/2 headways longer than current non-rush hour schedules. Also, current non-rush hour schedules are 3/4 of a headway longer than the schedules in force before John Simpson improved the TA's on time performance by padding the schedules. That comes to a rush hour expected arrival time at the terminal in excess of 2 headways. That sounds like trouble.
That doesn't mean they do not take, or are not entitled, to paid breaks during the period when they are on the clock.
Of course they are entitled to paid breaks, while they are on the clock. Your proposal is to hide such time by taking scheduling it between the 85th and 95th percentile. That's not sufficient time, if the standard deviation in arrival time is less than 20 seconds and it is not realizable if that time is on the order of 3 headways. You have underspecified that metric in your analysis.
This is where you erred. The set of variables Ti are far from independent from each other. Firstly, there is this effect called "bunching", where a train that runs late will tend to run later and later, and those that run early will tend to run earlier and earlier,
Bunching implies a temporal and spatial relationship between the current train and its predecessor. I have eliminated such dependence in my definition of my random variables. My variables are iterated over a spatial differences along a single run, not along temporal differences between successive runs. It is quite possible to construct a set of random variables that can have strong correlation with a different random variable but be uncorrelated with one another.
Secondly, if a train was held at stop (n-1) to its scheduled time, resulting in holding time of "Hn", although "Tn" may not have changed by a great deal (due to Effect 1), the "sum of Ti from 1 to n" would have increased by "Hn". The net result is that the shape of distribution of train arrivals at the terminal would have changed; it would be compressed to the right, since no train will arrive early, and more trains will arrive late,
The schedule is based on an absolute time from t0, the time the train leaves its terminal. Thus,
ti - t0 = T1 + T2 + ... + Ti.
Consequently, if a train is arrives early at station i, then it will be held so that its departure will be ti. Conversely, if a train is arrives late at station i, by an amount L, it will not be held. Inasmuch as the scheduled departure times are set to be in excess of the average loading time for each station, then it will its actual departure should reduce its lateness by some li. This process will continue at stations i+1, i+2, etc. until either the train has reached station n or until
li + li+1 +... + lj = L for some j < n.
The object is to prevent deviations from the schedule from becoming cumulative.
The destination terminal is station n+1. The two strategies were corrections at each station or a single correction at station n. In either case both trains would leave station n at the same time. The difference between the stategies is how much time they spend in station n.
You brought up the question of bunching. Consider the following. First, the average number of passengers waiting on a platform at a given station is proportional to the waiting time since the last train. Likewise the variability. Second, when trains and platforms are crowded, the loading time as a function of the number of passengers is a concave increasing function - df(x1)/dx > df(x2)/dx, for all x1 > x2. (A simple concave increasing function is x2.) Suppose I have a train leaving a station at t = 0 and t = 2. Where should I place a train between these two trains so that total loading time is minimized?
I don't understand. Why is the brake recharge time an issue? Train A comes in and comes to a stop. While it's recharging its brakes, train B leaves from the other track and a new train B' enters the other track. Now train A has long ago recharged its brakes, and it can leave and another train enter.
At 8th Ave the time to enter and leave the interlocking, plus waiting for the signals to turn green again for another train to enter the interlocking, is about 150 seconds.
In layman's terms: the way you defined the variables allows sectional running times, i.e. the time from door close at station (n-1) to door close at station (n) to be independent of each other. This is patently not true, and there are decades if not centuries of empirical observations that would back up my assertion.
By holding trains at every stop to their 85th or 95th-percentile running times, you do not necessarily isolate the interdependencies of running times between stops. For instance, let's suppose train A is running ahead of train B; train A is running late due to a mechanical failure that occured after departure from station (n). Train B arrives and departs from station (n) on time, but train A is still running between stations (n) and (n+1). By the time train A arrives in station (n+1), it has taken train B's "timeslot". Now no matter what you do, train B has been "blocked" from its rightful slot, and the running time was clearly dependent on train A's progress.
The corrective action that is most likely to be effective at this point, assuming no intermediate lay-up points, is to keep running train A to the terminus while holding train B and every subsequent train. Allowing train B to run close behind train A, according to train B's previously planned schedule, will result in bunching and total service degradation.
Consequently, if a train is arrives early at station i, then it will be held so that its departure will be ti. Conversely, if a train is arrives late at station i, by an amount L, it will not be held... The object is to prevent deviations from the schedule from becoming cumulative.
There are a number of reasons why this algorithm would not work. One contributory factor is blocking, as I explained earlier. Another reason why this algorithm would not work is because by trying to isolate the variability to between each station, you are in fact increasing the variability at each stage. Let's suppose train C is running early. At station (n), you can decide whether to hold train C to its scheduled timeslot. Given that you make this intervention, and then train C develops a mechanical defect between stations (n) and (n+1), now train C would be late at station (n+1) instead of being on-time or a little late at (n+1). In this case an unnecessary holding action (before holding is necessary, i.e. say at a key junction or a key transfer station) has caused a knock-on delay further down the line, where the on-time performance may be more critical than the on-time performance at station (n).
The two strategies were corrections at each station or a single correction at a key station. In either case both trains would leave station n at the same time.
In your analysis, I believe you have failed to account for effect of blocking, and the effect of random mechanical failures (or other random delays) that occasionally can "compensate" for early running. Holding a train before it becomes absolutely necessary increases delays, and is not impact-neutral as you suggest.
AEM7
16-a. The authority shall establish and publish or cause to be published schedules for all passenger transportation services under its operation. Such schedules shall include the estimated departure and arrival time at each terminal point of each route except that, on lines where the headway time during the period between six A.M. and seven P.M. is less than ten minutes, such headway time alone may be listed for that period. Such schedules shall also show the elapsed running time between the terminal and each station. Schedules shall be made available at each facility on the applicable route at which tokens or tickets are sold and shall be posted at each appropriate station operated by the authority.
The part highlighted in red pretty much showed my point however why it is worded like that is beyond me and could sound misleading. Their [possible] meaning of schedules relating to headways [highlighted in blue] is saying that the MTA is not obligated to show the ENTIRE schedule if the headways are less than 10 minutes on any day of the week. Example:
They do this but no need to make it longer............
7:05
7:10
7:15
7:20
7:25
7:30
7:35
7:40
7:45
.........when they could do this to save space on the timetable [which is common]
7:05
7:10
Then every 5 minutes until:
7:45
So when we read a E train schedule on the weekday rush hour for example and it says Then every 3-5 minutes until:, it probably refers to that. Now with schedule availability from take ones, I don't see them at every station unless they [somehow] run out of them daily.
Predictability assumes both a confidence level and an interval.To illustrate, I can predict with 99.99% certainty that a V will arrive at 36th within 2 days of its departure from Forest Hills. That's not very useful. I should also be able to predict with 99.99% certainty that it will arrive 67th within 5 seconds of its average travel time.
I could agree with that. So I admit my term of using unpredictable in this case was too general and shouldn't have been used.
I also know that loading time at 67th varies but at any given time of day it has actual, average, 85th percentile, 95th percentile loading times. I'll choose the scheduled departure from 67th to include the average travel time + 5 seconds from Forest Hills plus the 85th percentile loading time. I'd expect the train to be able to leave 67th at this time 85% of the time and I'd expect it never to leave any earlier. I'd do the same for 63rd, only now the V's arrival at 63rd would be far more predictible than it ever was by not controlling its departure from 67th. The most important determinant of loading time, for a given time of day, is the time the waiting time between trains. Controlling train departures from each and every station makes such waiting times predictible.
If it's the off peak hours, then pretty much you could say that trains will be on time 85-95% of the time, since a 100% on time performance is pretty much unrealistic, even with the shuttle trains. I don't know what the TA considers on-time in the off hour but I would think it is ± 1 minute. As for the rush hour, since the passenger loads are much higher I wouldn't always say the percent of being on time is that high but not too far off from your percentages. Also since you have the elements of door holding, technical problems, sick passenger, merging, etc train bunching is more likely to happen and the chances of keeping the scheduled interval can decrease very quickly. However a train can end up runinng ahead of time and therefore, while it will get back to its original interval between trains but then if something else were to happen, the same result could happen.
From the BOT's 1949 report. The percentage of trains that operated on time for the calendar year 1948: IRT - 86.30%; BMT - 98.77%; IND - 99.22%. The figures for the first half of 1949 were slightly better.
At that time a train was considered on time if it arrived at its terminal within 3 minutes of its scheduled time. The current on time criterion is within 6 minutes. The scheduled running times were slightly faster then.
Then every 3-5 minutes until:,
I would assume that the state legislature expected that the timetable would be exact and permission was granted to save paper and make reading the timetable easier. N.B. the statute refers to headway in the singular. I would submit that "3-5 minutes" represent at least two different headways.
You can't get any better than that for the IND and BMT but that comment I assume is applying to the IRT back in 1948. What factors contributed to an 86% on time rate [example crowding?], which was still pretty good but at least ~12.5% below the other two systems
I would assume that the state legislature expected that the timetable would be exact and permission was granted to save paper and make reading the timetable easier. N.B. the statute refers to headway in the singular. I would submit that "3-5 minutes" represent at least two different headways.
Well then you could take an average of the two numbers, which may apeear to be conflicting [but not necessarily] and get a tph out of it. Since you see that it is at least every 5 minutes, figure that you expect the line to have at least 12tph.
Mr. J trainloco has already commented on the ability of the 11th St Connector to hold one or two full length trains.
My calculations show that the present system is not sustainable without any delays.
The situation becomes more interesting, when one considers delays by the tower in setting the interlocking at Queens Plaza. However, that's beyond this study's scope.
Say, PATCO (Port Authority Transit Coporation) was formed in 1969, but in 1971 it changed its name to Port Authority Transit Railway, but then changed back to Port Authority Transit Coporation in 1989. You would put 1989 down for PATCO.
Or say the Strasburg Railroad operated a stagecoach service in 1829 before it started the railroad, you would put down 1829 for the date.
So here are the railroads!!!
Amtrak
MBTA
NJT
Long Island Rail Road
Metrolink
Alaska Railroad
Airtrain
Shore Line East
Metro-North
Sounder
SNCF
Eurostar
VIA Rail Canada
Canadian National
Cape Brenton and Central Nova Scotia Railway
Long Island Rail Road -- 1834
Amtrak -- 1971
Metrolink -- 1992
Airtrain -- 2003
NJT and Amtrak are around the same time I believe, and I wouldn't be suprised if MBTA was as well....
Not sure about MBTA (though I think they're pretty old), but NJT was formed in 1979.
Metro-North was formed in 1982 or 83.
Amtrak, 1971
Chuck Greene
That's just great, now the PETA Nazis will bitch and moan that if the River Line wasn't built then the deer would be alive. They'd probably say something like that.
Bill "Newkirk"
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
I am *so* sick of bambiburgers, bambisausage, bambipepperoni. Sure 200 pounds of deer meat seems like a free lunch ... until you try to figure out what to *do* with all of it. And with all the wreckage they've caused to the trees, shrubs and all around here, I'd rather see craters. :)
If Peta folks don't appreciate my words, come and SAVE them ... when hunting season comes around THIS year, it's going to be with cruise missiles.
So that's where Saddam's WMD are. You might get in trouble if you take out Bambi with a Scud although I am not objecting.
Matthew Mummert
I'd bet more bears got killed by trucks on highways but you never heard about them...
Out here, PETA stands for People Eating Tasty Animals.
: ) Elias
Wait till she hits a person.
Some of the train operators are new to railroading.
Ok, but any experienced engineer would not be "traumatized" after hitting a deer. I've worked the Raritan Valley Line as a brakeman for only 4 years and I've witnessed a few deer fatalities while looking out the head end just deadheading equipment. 99% of the time, I'm working the hind end of revenue trains collecting fares and operating the doors.
When I was commuting on the LIRR (And riding the railfan window, of course), I would never count less that 30 dogs on the tracks between Lynbrook and Jamaica in various stages of decomposition.
The engineer told me that they will always run in front of the train and never leap to the side and off of the tracks. He specualted that the shiny rails looked will walls or fences that could not be jumpped.
Under no circumstance has a dog ever out run a train on that section of track.
Elias
Chuck Greene
Since it was near Cass street, the all could have gone to the Mickey-D's.
Chuck Greene
I doubt that a deer was wandering about "near" the Cass Street station.
Chuck Greene
I have no love for deer. There's way too many of them around, and they're quite a danger, and they can be nasty, too. The population of them is huge, and getting bigger.
BTW, at Wes we also had quite a few campus skunks.
Anyone want roadkill? : - )
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
I find skunks to be interesting animals, and a LOT less annoying that squirrels or chipmunks or raccoons.
The trouble with deer is people think Bambi from all those ^*^(( Disney flicks. They're NOT that cute, and they're quite a problem.
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
Matthew Mummert
Chuck Greene
Bill "Newkirk"
You are right, but "riding shotgun" sounds more amusing.
Bill "Newkirk"
The accident happened late Saturday night, not early Sunday morning. The accident happened near Bordentown, not near Cass Street. After the line goes under 295 southbound in reverts to single track prior to crossing the Crosswicks Creek Bridge. This is where the deer was hit, knocking out the train's electrical system. A rescue train couldn't be brought up on the other track because there is no other track.
Do the media turn out like this everytime a freight train hits a deer? (Freights run along the river line overnight, LRT or no LRT)
Do the media turn out everytime a car, bus or truck hits a deer on a highway?
Yes there are ethical questions regarding fast moving vehicles and the animals they kill, from bears to bugs, but why single out the River Line?
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Normal rats have four legs also. What is the distinguishing feature of this one?
Any word on the condition of the train?
Chuck Greene
On March 5, Cava finally stepped into that world. He and Horsley traveled to the Bronx to pick out a subway car at the Grand Concourse yards, a massive train storage facility near Yankee Stadium."
Near Yankee Stadium? Either they moved the Stadium or relocated the Concourse Yard.
Typical Newsday. They can never get geography outside of L.I. correct. Only the NY Post is worse in getting the facts right.
Another error, the Transit Museum has one, in original colors.
Peace,
ANDEE
"Another error, the Transit Museum has one, in original colors."
Ah, but #9306 was never a Redbird because she was never red !
Bill "Newkirk"
9586/7 are in very good shape with little rust, 9587 even has the US Open "Green 7" logo
Six mainline R33's should be in charter service, not Flushing R36's - they are in far better mechanical and physical shape.
please email me - allen074@yahoo.com
thanks!
Your pal,
Fred
DRAFT Programme
SUNDAY
12.00pm Arrival at Boston South Station and Welcome
12.30pm Todd's Bus picks everyone up for Seashore
2.30pm Arrive at Seashore, play with trolleys
6.00pm Todd's Bus drops people off at Newburyport
Commuter Rail to Downtown and disperse
7.00pm AEM7 hosts late night crowd at a Dorchester Bar
(Red Line ride)
9.00pm AEM7's party moves to Mike's Pastry in the North End
(Green Line ride)
11.00pm Everyone should be in their hotel room by now
MONDAY
6.00am Meet at Downtown Crossing
(Orange Line ride to Forest Hills)
7.00am Ride rush-hour articulated #39 bus in the Arborway corridor
7.30am Brigham Circle: change for Green Line D-Branch Outbound to Riverside
8.30am Stevie(?) Shop Tour at Riverside
9.30am Green Line D-Branch to Reservoir; B-Branch to Hynes/Convention Center
10.15am MBTA #1 to Dudley Square
11.00am MBTA Silver Line to Downtown
11.30am Ride out to Ashmont and Mattapan and back
1.00pm Disperse at South Station for onward transportation
(1) Todd, will this work for you? How much $ do each of us have to donate to Seashore to get a bus out?
(2) Stevie, are you able to arrange a Riverside shop tour for us, or does it have to be Cabot? [I know Riverside better than I know Cabot, so Cabot would be more educational for me.]
(3) If you have already said that you might be interested, now is the time to check your diary and figure out if the proposed date is OK.
AEM7
As far as bus operations are concerned, there's no cost per se, but all riders should be either a Museum member, or guest of a member. I'll pay for the fuel, and make a donation to the Bus Fund on behalf of the group.
If the event does get moved, I further suggest we do Boston on a Saturday or Sunday vs. a Monday & have to deal with rush hours. This is unless we can get a shop tour which would need to be a week-day.
The group I was with previously arrived in ME Friday night, did Seashore Saturday & left from there Sunday morning. We did all the colors in Boston Sunday & found a bed & breakfest on Beacon street. Monday was our travel day back to NYC.
In anycase please keep me in mind for this trip.
I'm also interested in a Washington or Chicago trip (have missed the previous trips due to circumstances beyond my control).
Tracklesses run on Saturday, also.
Mark
New R-62, 142, and 142a pics from Sunday: Click on image to see index.
-Chris
He's been pretty angry about a great photo he took at the end of steam days on the LIRR that's been reproduced and is now part of a Newsday contest with no credit. He's put a lot of stuff about it on his home page.
If anybody agrees or disagrees, I bet he'd like to hear about it (especially if you agree, I guess).
I've had some of my stuff plagiarized by other media, and I wonder how SubTalkers would feel if their photographic efforts ended up in a major newspaper without a peep where it came from.
:)
You should put "(c) 2004 (or whatever year it is) Brian Weinberg" on all you photos when you post them. This way you've got them.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
As you noticed what I do (since I can't type my copyright innside my Sprint pictures), is to leave a comment about my photos protected by copyright. What kills any defense they offender may have is the date and time I sent my email containing my pictures from one address to another (both of the email addresses are mine.).
So, no person or entity can claim about the date of the pictures taken, since I can print out the copy of the email I sent.
Here is the link. SOmeone should teach me basic html so this is a hyperlink:
http://www.transitgallery.com/data/66f041e16a60928b05a7e228a89c3799/full_218_p9131.jpg
http://www.transitgallery.com/showpic.php?aid=218&uuid=58&pid=9132
Anyway, great map, but you should try to place the line markers for subway lines. Here's a guide to help you:
Keep up the good work!
-Chris
My rule of thumb, when making fantasy maps I never add trains to existing lines or crossings. If I want to put a new service on a bridge, line or trunk, then I must take an existing service off.
My Myrtle-Fifth Avenue Line, and my 23rd Street Subways are examples of this.
Additionally, by keeping new construction on new lines, I am able to use newer technologies: Trains that run 75 - 80 MPH; Trains with Liner Induction Motors; Trains with 100% automatic control: I can put the T/O in the middle of the train to operate the doors and supervise the train, and not bother putting anybody up front!
Otherwise, you have a good grasp on the needs of the city. Keep an eye on existing structures: You will want to make optimal services with minimal disruption of existing infrastructure.
Look again at Myrtle-Fifth, and see how that line treads itself through the most congested parts of Brooklyn and Manhattan (admittedly at a very deep level under ground, under all existing services) without disruption, yet is capable of having good connections.
What about your fare zones? Is it "One City - One Fare" or are you going to have a higher fare for the new outlying ares, especially if they are to get premium fast express services.
I am thinking of a premium fare for new services east of Jamaica. A $4.00 swipe to get on. Swipe again if you are gettiong off in the same zone and get a $2.00 rebate. The return trip is always $2.00. So the round trip premium fare is $3.00. What the hexk: There is a premium fare on the express bus, and this will be MUCH FASTER!
Elias
However, that won't stop me from posting links to some of my photos. Some people will find some of them interesting.
E60 #603, the only preserved Amtrak E60, though I understand a couple of NJT's 60's were saved.
603
603
Thomas the Tank Engine, the only real steam engine Thomas in the USA.
old (slide valves) steam engine being rebuilt
475 and 31, the unusual N&W twelve-wheeler and the Strasburg tourist railroad's first steamer, respectively
GE 44-tonner, made famous by photos in Trains Magazine hauling a disabled Amtrak GG1 to the Strasburg shop for repair
regular Strasburg RR train
Strasburg RR's CN #89 approaching Groff's Grove. Eighty-nine performed a symphony of chuffing and wheel slipping upon starting up again up hill on wet rails upon leaving Groff's Grove.
side by side for photo opportunity
#89 starting up; wheel slipping coming soon!
This should have been done 30 years ago.
I think you better plan on Electic City for a separate weekend.
Mainline - CA&E 308 & 309, CA&E 431, CNS&M 757 & 714, CTA 4290 & 4412, CTA 6655-6656
Streetcar line - CTA 3142, CTA 4391
That's more-or-less an educated guess. There might also be a couple of pieces of work equipment on the main line carrying "passengers" but only IRM members will qualify to go along on those runs. In the past this has included rides in our dump motor, which is certainly a unique experience. Plus, there will be 25 or 30 cars in the Trolley Pageant. And assuming the weather cooperates, this ought to be a good year - we're cooking up a few surprises for the Pageant, provided all goes well. ;-)
Frank Hicks
Frank Hicks
Frank Hicks
Heck, all those cars are worth at least one ride apiece.
Do I get a break on admission if I show my BERA membership card?
Theoretically, since IRM and BERA are both ARM members, you ought to be able to get in for free. However, the college kids who man the ticket booth are not railfans and have never heard of Branford, so no promises... if in doubt, tell them Nick said it was okay. ;-)
Frank Hicks
wayne
And for anyone wondering, yes, this is one of the cars I get to work on at IRM:
Hells yeah! :-)
Frank Hicks
This car was gutted by a fire in 1970 that destroyed most of the interior, and between 1976 and 1997 my father restored it as pictured. I don't know if I would have that kind of patience!
Frank Hicks
Turner Classic Movies is playing "Grand Central Murder" today (MONDAY) at 5pm EST.
The synopsis mentions "a detective investigating a passenger death in a railcar"... from 1942 or so?
It relates to TRAINZ, folks!!
(consult local programming guide for channel numbers)
Below is a map of color designations on path lines. I have also included NYCT Subway connections. (BTW, Dave, if you would like, put this on your PATH page-I can make one w/o the color designations-im not saying yours is bad, but I would like to *contribute*). Thanks for taking time to look!Hope you like it!(Another BTW, any corrections would be accepted, I want this to be a good map that people can use on my site, IF I ever make one OR for this site).
-Chris
1] The AIRTRAIN does not originate at Newark Penn Station
2] You should mention that the HBLR also connects at Exchange Place, and Pavonia-Newport
3]You did not mention the late-night Blue/Yellow combined service.
It would also help to show which stations are wheelchair accessible (or is PATH 100% ADA compliant? I'm not sure...)
33rd st
WTC
Newark
Journal Square
Exchange Place
Pavonia/Newport and Hoboken
It would also help to show which stations are wheelchair accessible (or is PATH 100% ADA compliant? I'm not sure...)
Although the timetable is as of 11/22/03 when WTC station reopened, there should be an updated map by now.
DUH!
I now have that gem of a map archived... :)
Updated as of 3/29/04 on approx. 10:10 PM
-Chris
Your pal,
Fred
Keep up the good work !
Rear Window ... are you an Alfred Hitchcock film fan ?
Your spellbound pal,
Fred
My favorite Hitchcock films are (in this order): Psycho, The Birds, Vertigo, Frenzy, Rear Window, North By Northwest (great Hudson line ride, which I know from my everyday commute!)Dial M for Murder, Notorious, Lifeboat. I've never seen Spellbound in its entirety, mostly the curtain-by-Dali-with-eyes cutting sequence.
Your shiny pal,
Fred
Your pal,
Fred
Peace,
ANDEE
Your embarassed pal,
Fred
Might be that ugly 7th Ave/53rd st station on an E train, not sure but a wild guess.
Your pal,
Fred
I'm a lousy foamer - all I care about is the cabs and running 'em. :)
The now immortalized Redbirds spent nearly half of their careers providing awful service as a grafitti covered mess, before becomming the Lazarus cars of New York City Transit history.
The R32 Brightliners, in contrast, have always been reliable. While the Redbirds were the last of their kind, the Brightliners are the first large production stainless cars. I was concerned backward looking transit nuts wouldn't give them their due, but perhaps I was wrong.
The Brightliners will never be reefed.
1) No Asbestos, so no high abatement costs
2) Stainless Steel: very valuable, high scrap value.
When they go, wherever they go, it will not be for a swim in the ocean.
Elias
Its not like carbon steel, so it won't be dumped into the ocean. If the MTA really wants to, they could run the R32's for another 5-10 years seeing their construction.
David
Did they have asbestos in them???
David
BLUE DOORS!
Blue Doors ROCK.
Bring Back the Blue Doors.
And loose the lousey flipping dots somewhere!
Elias
'nuff said
But hey, these is modern times of republicans - no BRAINS required - read your speedo that says you're doing 90 MPH when you're stopped with the doors open, watch that flashing lunar - it CAN'T lie, heh. No brains required - flying monkeys from the wizard of OZ can pass schoolcar these days ... no offense to curent TWU members, but once upon a time they TRUSTED you, or you would have NEVER made it past the motor instructors in the FIRST place. :(
#3 West End Jeff
However, as for the Blue Door scenario, BRING THEM BACK, along with the rollsigns on the front. They still look good, but they are a shadow of their former selves.
Yes, I know that the brighliners were delivered with blue doors, and yes, I know that they are 100% stainless steel, but *are* these the original doors that were blue, or had the doors been replaced somewhere along the lion?
For these doors are very shiny, and certainly look like they were never blue.
Elias
I don't think so, the doors were blue as delivered
Watch it, hot stuff, or I eat you for lunch!
City Hall station was closed in 1945.
Peace,
ANDEE
I however did notice recently that those large bronze tablets that were moved to the Brooklyn Bridge station until the rehab, were returned to City Hall. I saw this on some posted photos, I haven't set foot on that station in many years.
Bill "Newkirk"
Thanks for your help.
Vince
Vince
They will tell you the status of the list.
Has the pervious list been retired?
If not then there is no list from the current test that is valid for employment.
Call DCAS to find out.
Vince
The new list has not been announced, which is why no one has heard anything yet.
but to awnser your question, the old list has not expired yet, but it will be at the end of the year...........as for when you're called, no one knows........
BTW, Graveyard, what did you get on the exam?
I've heard though that there were over 35,000 taking the test. Does anyone know if any questions on the AM exam were successfully protested and changed (especially # 59 - obviously the one I got wrong)?
Thanking everyone for their assistance and interest.
Vince
Being a T/O has always been a dream of mine (even when I thought the title was Engineer). I took the conductor's test in 1976 and got two wrong and wasn't called until I graduated from NYU four years later. My application for Flight training was also approved at the same time. So the dream of flying came before the dream being a T/O.
someone from dcas told me each question is worth 1.42 each.......i hope that's not true, but that's what i was told, but i think that may be incorrect...........
Here's your first chance to get a look at the "new" cars in action.
You decide between now and 6 AM Saturday morning. These 2 G.O.'s will confuse any customer.
DUH!
NO C SERVICE AFTER 11:30 AM FRIDAY MORNING.
Now the A will be impossible to use in Brooklyn during the PM rush.
Which brings up another point that neither you, nor NYCT ever mentioned: You can transfer from the 2/3 to the A at Fulton/B'way Nassau only if you are using an Unlimited Ride card. Simply get out at Fulton/William, walk 2 blocks west to Broadway/Fulton, and enter the system there.
It's single ride and PPR customers that have to use Park Place as the transfer.
Now let's see where this J will go, Pacific or Prospect Park?
On the Flatbush Line, you should see alot of straight tunnel. You might even be able to see the misspelled sign at Beverely Road.
The Flatbush line is kind of plain looking, but the neighborhood at the end is pretty darn interesting, what with the Junction, Bklyn College, and a million bus stops (B41,B44,B6,B11,Q35, etc.), and newstands and pizza places up the wazoo.
I was on the New Lots Line recently. It's elevated after Utica; and the section to Utica is interesting with the eastbound on top and the westbound on the bottom (I think), so the tracks are reversed from usual westbound. If you get off at the last stop, there is a candy store right under the end of the line. Plus with an all-day pass, you could get on the Canarsie Line back to the city at Junius Street.
The Flatbush line is basically cookie-cutter underground stations similar to the Canarsie line stations. But it's still an enjoyable line. Church has been meticulously refurbished, and worth a stop.
I would be curious if the old movie theater building adjacent to the Saratoga Avenue station on this line was still there, and, if it was, would try to soak up some "Brownsville movie ghosts of the past".
The Brooklyn IRT is mentioned in William S. Burroughs' autobiographical novel, "Junkie", wherein he mentions robbing drunks on the subway to support his habit. The account begins, "The mooch got on the IRT [at B'way and 96th St. Manhattan] headed for Brooklyn" and continues "We were out of the underground now and onto the elevated" riding to the last stop, finding nothing of value on the mooch's person, then getting off and walking in the streets until "We finally ran into the BMT line and rode back to Manhattan". The account ends with Burroughs' partner in crime commenting, "Well that's how it is. Some nights you make a thousand dollars. Some nights you don't make anything."
Since then I have ridden the Livonia El a few times (within the last couple years after about a 10 year absence), and it is much improved, new housing construction, etc, similar to along the Broadway El. I had been on it for the first time in 10 years when I went on Peggy's Brookly IRT tour about 2 years ago, and have been back about two times since.
I still probably wouldn't really go there at night, but I have no problem getting off at stations during the day. As for the airport bus connection, I would probably talk it from the airport, where you can wait for the train in fare control, but but not to the airport where you have to wait on the street.
New Lots riders must've felt cheated when the 2/3 swap was made in 1984, then seeing the redbirds going to the newly re-routed 2 line to Flatbush. The #3 was the last IRT line to get new R62A's.
Funny thing is my wife rode a short section of the line, between Kingston and Bkln Museum with my kids this weekend and it made me realize that I hadn't been out that way since, even though I've ridden every other line except Lenox and Lefferts, both stubs.
As far as safety goes, ENY has come a long way in the last decade. It used to be I wouldn't even drive through it to get to the Interborough, but now I don't give it a thought. The new housing, and the new mall along the Belt Pkwy have turned it around.
I just rode through there on Pennylvania Ave from the Interborough to the Belt last Wednesday. I was amazed at how it has improved. It was completely safe in my eyes. I wouldn't give a second though to driving there.
That's supposed to say:
I wouldn't give a second thought to driving there.
Minor point; that year, the R26/28s were beginning to phase out the Low-Vs on the Lex Woodlawn (marker double green) and White Plains Rd. (marker red white)in numbers. Only the R21/22s were predominate on the Seventh Ave Exp. Over one thousand five hundred SMEEs were in operation, in 1960, on the entire IRT.
Junius Street is a little bizarre, as it has a crossover at the end of the platform.
Makes sense. Newkirk Avenue east of Flatbush was once Paerdegat Lane and ran to the Flatbush Water Works where Flatbush got its water and where the Paerdegat Creek began, the same Paerdegat Creek that now emerges south of Flatlands Avenue and separates Georgetowne and Bergen Beach from Canarsie. The old Water Works was abandoned once Catskill water became available in the 1910s or 20s and is now occupied by the Vanderveer Park Apartments.
The high water table is why Flatbush Avenue has side platforms. It would have been a lot more expensive to dig deeper to allow a mezzanine. Since the IRT planned an extension, they couldn't build a peninsula platform where you have an island and track level turnstile past the bumpers (as in WTC on E et. al).
I'm not sure about that one, (American Pig would probably know) but the Nostrand Ave line's extension, far beyond Flatbush Ave terminal, was seriously considered. (perhaps now to Kings Plaza shopping center). It may be a good idea to eliminate some of the buses in the neighborhoods
The elevated run was pretty impressive and I didn't run into any trouble but then again, this was around noontime or the 1st hour...
What do you guys think?
I think you should get over your fear and just go. The area, IMO, during he day, is no more dangerous than any other part of the city.
---Sir Ronald of McDonald
I've covered every inch of the subway in the Bronx without any whiff of trouble. The only line I've avoided so far because of safety fears is the one thta gave its name to this thread, the IRT to New Lots. But next time I'm in NYC I'm going there anyway.
Good for you. Don't be afraid.
They do that anyway, I often see people throwing stuff onto the tracks or onto the platform even when they're standing next to a trash can. Once I saw people throwing trash onto the tracks while there were still workers down there cleaning up the trash at the other end of the same platform.
That said, when I noticed no trash cans on the platform at Lexington Ave on the E/V this past weekend, I assumed it was because of the construction there. Is this maybe a response to the Madrid bombings?
Interesting, though, is that DC installed bomb-resistant trash cans in the stations, only to remove them within fare control not too long after.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Wishful thinking.
Customers will leave their garbage whereever they can drop it. As long as police don't hand out tickets for littering, customers will leave it anywhere. And not always on top of the third rail.
In light of that, I vote for no cans.
EGADS, Man! What you be thinking!
Without the trash cans to put them in....
Yikes! RIPE
I agree with the other posters: geese will probably dump their trash where they generate it, regardless of whether a trash can is available. The money saved by not emptying cans will almost certainly be consumed by station cleaners picking debris off the floor.
How (often) the trackbed will get cleaned is another question.
Reduce cleanings so that people have to look at their mess.
You might have given DefJef a topic to rant about.
BTW, Hoboken Terminal uses clear bags held up by frames. In NYC, scavengers or vandals would probably just rip apart the bags.
You'd probably have to pay cleaners to clean the platforms.
People can set a bomb anywhere. The Madrid Bombs were not in trash cans.
Trash cans made out of a heavy steel net mesh would actually stifle the explosion of a bomb.
I suggest putting properly engineered contaiment containers for trash.
If they are an atracive place to hide bombs, so much the better!
But really. If somebody leaves a knapsack or a briefcase behind on the platform when they board the train, who is going to notice. Probly only some orc with a thought toward stealing it!
All kinds of cool devices can be devised, but none of the really nasty ones that I can think of would involve the subway or trains.
Elias
No one expected terrorists to crash plaves into busy office buildings. No one expected multiple bombs going off on busy commuter railroads or subways during rush hour.
What we thought could NEVER happen has turned in something that MIGHT happen. Hopefully it will nver happen. But these days it might happen. I hope you're right that it never happens. But if you're wrong, you'll have to live with it.
The return on disrupting the subway system is too small.
Even taking out the WTC was more psychological than real.
More damage was done to our contry by the likes of Enron and WorldCom then by BinLaden, after all he only killed people (and an Idea): The financial scandals rocked the very foundation of our security.
That being said, think of six tractor trailer trucks, the kind that are sealed up for carring frozen products. Think of them being filled with AmFo... Imagine them being detonated, one each in the Lincoln, Holland, Queens and Brooklyn Tunnels, and on the GeoWash and Verizano Bridges.
Do it at 3:00 AM when security is the slowest, and traffic the lightest, sure it would be nice (from BinLaden's viewpoint) to kill people, but doing it in the day time makes the timing so problematic that taking all six down would be impossible. With night time traffic, nobody would have the time to react and close the rest of them down before they came down.
And just what are they going to do to stop THAT!???
Are they going to inspect every truck? HA! doing that would have the same effect on commerce as blowing the damn crossings up ourselves!
We are a free society and a free people. THEY cannot take that away from us (well maybe in Spain) no matter what they blow up, but we sure as hell can give that away ourselves!
Elias
We keep getting trapped in the stupid Rumsfield mentality of "WAR" and "wargames" and "strategy" in the "battlefield sense" ... sorry to burst the White House bubble, but the "cold war" is over. This is EVEN MORE insidious, because at least the Russkies had the MONEY to wage "war" with us ...
"Terrorism" is ALL ABOUT THAT! (damnable pea-nrained MORONS!) ... it costs NOTHING to do a spectacular "pantsing of America" on a scale of World Trade ... face it, we didn't EXPECT that and we WEREN'T paying attenion ... "they tried to kill my DADDY!" was all that apparently mattered based on four books and 9/11 testimony ... but I digress ... this isn't ABOUT which party wins in November, it's about ***US*** and how EASILY we want a Hitler of our VERY own.
TERRORISM is all about TERROR ... blow up a train in Madrid, take advantage of "a hijacking is just that, they wanna go somewhere and we ain't gonna LET them" and WTC happened. *UNTIL* we stop talking about "terrorism" then THEIR JOB is done ... all they gotta do is release a tape, alert the media, FIND Dick Cheney and all HELL breaks loose. Unlike a REAL enemy, we do this all to OURSELVES by worrying about that commie behind the woodpile, Janet Jackson's Teat, Howard Stern's opinion of Paris Hilton or any OTHER number of off the wall nonsense and personl fears.
As long as they can pick up a cell phone and make us crap our pants, THEY don't have to do a DAMN thing other than suggest it. :(
The "color-coordinated alerts" were ONE disservice - our LEADERS want us to live in FEAR ... "vote for ME or you DIE" and such nonsense. Who are the terrorists exactly? You're MUCH less likely to die in a "terrorist attack" (TERRORISM IS PSYCHOLOGY, NOT WWIII!!!!!) than g etting hit by a bus. And yet we go off into THIS stupidity. Hell ... it we'd only CHECKED passports, 9/11 wouldn't have happened.
9/11 was a GOVERNMENT failure - don't let the politicians WIN by making you blame YOURSELF for it. :(
No, it would add thousands of bits of maiming shrapnel to all but the smallest explosions.
Reality with "mesh containers" is that they're going to make a LOT of "wind" and they're going to flash past the steel ... beyond that, the container (and its contents) WILL provide greater protection than an "exposed blast" and even BETTER protection in a "directed blast" ... if they put a plastic liner in it, then you MIGHT get skin burns from the "Napalmolive" of the melted plastic, but would fare still better than an "uncontained" blast ... the arguments stand based on education and "study group" with the military in my NY PSC days ...
I guess you have never seen the blast nets the demolition teams or construction crews use.
A Solid Garbage can (dumpster) would turn into schrapnel when exploded by a bomb: these blast nets will allow the energy to disapate while containing the missiles.
Elias
Matthew Mummert
This is only going to dirty up the system more. Way to go, MTA.
Here's a picture
BTW: That mobile office in the background gives a clear indiction that you took (or found) the picture near a elevated subway station, that is undergoing renovation. (Jerome or WPR line?)
Did you get your camera phone yet? Looks like it was used, but it's great.
When they were sold to Con Ed, it was with the understanding that 25 Hz would be supplied. As solid state rectifiers were introduced in the 60's, the 25hz was no longer required.
Yes. The IRT uses a 600 VAC 25 cy primary and the BMT uses 2400VAC,
25 cy. Portions that have been re-signalled recently use 60 cy
equipment and IND-style power distribution. The 25 cy "legacy
systems" are now fed from solid-state power converters located,
IIRC, in the traction power substations.
BTW it still is E/W in Queens and Brooklyn. So you have Eastbound and Westbound power mains. Sometimes the EB normal and WB reserve share an Edison feed, and vice versa, et cetera, ad nauseum, anno dominum, dos equis.
More importantly, what is the detector circuit?
the thing that detects reverse current must be the detector circuit. That or else its that long bar next to the railhead, which must close a microswitch or something when the train pushes it down. I digress
There were three main powerplants which generated 13 Kilovolt AC. One on west 58th Street, one on east 73rd and one in Brooklyn. Power was distributed to local substations in the system. Each substation had step-down transformers which dropped 13 Kv to about 700 volts AC.
What they had were giant one hundred ton rotary convertors. These huge machines MECHANICALLY converted AC to DC...the operators used precision clocks to adjust the speed of the commutators on an ongoing basis. When ConEd 60 cycle power was brought into the system, some plants were converted but the machines spun three times as fast and were cycled in twenty minute intervals. Introduction of mercury vapor rectifiers put an end to rotary convertors and the last was shut down about three years ago. Today, 13 Kv power comes from ConEd substations diectly, stepped down by big transformers to 700 VAC and rectified by large banks of silicon diodes to DC. Mercury vapor rectifiers are being phased out because of the hazards mercury has to the environment and personel. DC loss is reduced because of closer supply sources...third rail is about 650 VDC.
So I'm watching an RCI in the yard at East 180th Street. He just got a new digital multi-meter and is scratching the third rail with the test probe. Meter is not working...track rail is signal rail and not power return (ground) unless a trainset sits in zone. DUH...nobody caught this. Some CI said he should have used a bank of 600 volt lights. DUH again. I'm not 'OnTheJuice' for nothing. CI Peter
At approx. 2:45 PM, a Northbound Q train goes BIE after leaving BeverLEY Road station. This lasted for about 20 minutes while the T/O investigated the entire train on the roadbed for any debris.
Here are some more photos:
Just missed this shot
A great couple
And for me, the shot of the weekend
Enjoy!
Your amazed pal,
Fred
Your pal,
Fred
Regards,
Jimmy
A couple of N/B Q trains ran express from Kings Highway to Prospect Park, during this BIE.
Here are some photos of some recent trips to The Bronx
Enjoy!
Your pal,
Fred
Other than the area around Fordham, I'm a newbie when it comes to the Bronx, but liked what I saw from both on top of and below the stations I visited. "Seedy" and "bad area" are relative terms and yes, as a whole NYC is a lot better than it was 20 years ago.
Your pal,
Fred
(4) WoodlawnBowlingGreen
Your pal,
Fred
Skip-Stop service on the Jamaica Avenue Line began on June 15, 1959.
The service operated Manhattan-bound only Monday thru Friday with trains leaving 168 Street-Jamaica from 706AM to 824AM. There was no Jamaica-bound skip-stop service in the PM rush.
Stations and not trains were designated as "A", "B", and "AB" stops.
#14 Broadway-Bklyn Lcl would make "B" and "AB" stops while #15 Jamaica Express would make "A" and "AB" stops.
168 Street AB
160 Street B
Sutphin Boulevard AB
Queens Boulevard B
Metropolitan Avenue B
121 Street A
111 Street A
102 Street B
Woodhaven Boulevard A
Forest Parkway A
Elderts Lane AB
Cypress Hills B
Crescent Street A
Norwood Avenue B
Cleveland Street A
Van Siclen Avenue B
Alabama Avenue B
Eastern Parkway AB
It must have been intended to operate primarily the R-16s in this service as the flyer issued at the time very clearly identified the #14 and #15 trains. Of course when the Standards ran in place of the R-16s passengers only had to look at the route name to tell the two services apart.
This service continued this way up until the opening of the Chrystie Street Subway. QJ trains then replaced #15 Jamaica Expresses and made "A" and "AB" stops while the #14 Bway-Bklyn Local was redesignated JJ and made "B" and "AB" stops.
This lasted from November 27, 1967 until June 28, 1968 when the JJ was discontiuned.
It was replaced by a new service called the KK 6 Avenue-Bway (Bklyn)-Jamaica Local which now would make the "B" and "AB" stops.
Skip-Stop service would now operate eastbound in the PM rush as well as westbound in the am rush.
This lasted from July 1, 1968 until December 31, 1972 when the KK was discontinued and replaced by the K which was cut back to Eastern Parkway. At this also the QJ was replaced by a new service called the "J".
Effective January 2, 1973,
alternate "J" trains would make either the "A" or "B" stops.
One assumes that it was intended to differentiate between the two J services by using the PA system, there certainly was no changes made to the roll signs. Eastbound PM rush skip-stop service was discontined at this time.
The K itself was discontinued on August 27,1976 and the J skip-stop service was extended westward to Myrtle Avenue as follows
Eastern Parkway AB
Chauncey Street A
Halsey Street B
Gates Avenue A
Kosciusko Street B
Myrtle Avenue AB.
The Jamaica El was cut back to Queens Boulevard on September 10, 1977 eliminating the stations at 168 Street,160 Street and Stuphin Boulevard. Effective September 11,1977 Queens Boulevard became an "AB" stop.
All skip-stop service was discontinued on December 1, 1980.
The Jamaica Line had local service only until the Z began service in 1988.
Larry, RedbirdR33
One question, though:
This service continued this way up until the opening of the Chrystie Street Subway. QJ trains then replaced #15 Jamaica Expresses and made "A" and "AB" stops while the #14 Bway-Bklyn Local was redesignated JJ and made "B" and "AB" stops.
This lasted from November 27, 1967 until June 28, 1968 when the JJ was discontiuned.
What about the RJ?
What about the RJ?
Thank you.
The RJ did operate from 168 Street Jamaica from 528AM to 619AM. (5 trains). The QJ then began operating with the 629AM departure but the skip-stop service did not begin until the 706AM departure.
By the time that eastbound skip-stop service began in July 1968 the RJ was no longer operating.
For the record the last AM RJ from 168 Street (619AM) as well as all QJ departures from 629AM-906AM ran express on Broadway from Eastern Parkway to Essex Street stopping only at Myrtle Avenue.
Larry, RedbirdR33
I thought Marcy Ave had been an exress stop since the early 60's, when the switches were moved from west to east of the station.
Chris: Effective February 23,1960 #10 Myrtle-Chambers Express began stopping at Marcy Avenue. However #15 Jamaica Expresses continued to skip Marcy Avenue by running nonstop through the station on the local tracks. The J Jamaica Express began stopping at Marcy Avenue effective with the August 29, 1976 schedule change.
Larry, RedbirdR33
THAT explains why I never saw one southbound - too early. How many did they run ? I know there were only 5 in the PM rush.
Joe: There were only 10 southbound RJ's all together. The five am trains started from 168 Street and the five pm trains started from Eastern Parkway.
During the AM rush there five northbound RJ of which two terminated at Eastern Parkway and the other three went on to 168 Street.
During the PM rush RJ's left 95 Street for 168 Street at 537,546,554,602 and 614PM. The first four ran express from Essex Street to Eastern Parkway while the 614PM ran local.
Larry, RedbirdR33
I can't tell if it was there to supplement the QJ or the RR. I don't think it did a good job of either. I think its real purpsoe was to facilitate R16 removal from the Eastern to the 4th Avenue line.
I only remember them northbound in the PM rush. 3 of the 5 were R16's. I made a point of riding them since I was sad the R16's had otherwise left.
That was only in one direction. I'm sure the morning RJ's leaving 168th Street that early in the morning arrived at 95th Street just in time to run back to Manhattan during the peak of the rush. Ditto for the RJ's leaving 95th in the PM. That 5:37 probably used an RJ consist which just arrived from 168th St. The diamond R did the same thing. Early diamond R trains would leave Metropolitan Ave at 6 AM, arrive at 95th St at 7:30 Am, just in time to return north for the morning rush. Remember, there is no yard in Bay Ridge. Trains leaving 95th Street must either be layed up north of 59th St or come from Manhattan in service.
Joe: The RJ's did have a confusing service pattern. What they did do was provide 4 Avenue-Nassau St service in the direction of traffic.
There operation between Nassau Street and the Eastern Division was more electic.
During the early morning rush they filled in about a 45 minute in the service out of 168 Street. The JJ's to Broad Street ran until about 5:13AM. The RJ's to 95 Street then took over from 528AM to 619AM. After that QJ service to Brighton Beach started at 629AM and ran for the rest of the day.
During the evening rush the northbound RJ actually filled a gap in northbound QJ service.
The QJ left Brighton Beach from 556 1/2AM to 527 1/2 PM and from 614PM to 747PM. The RJ filled the gap in that service.
I did ride the line a few times and I also remember the R-16s in use.
Larry,RedbirdR33
What about the RJ?
Thank you.
The RJ did operate from 168 Street Jamaica from 528AM to 619AM. (5 trains). The QJ then began operating with the 629AM departure but the skip-stop service did not begin until the 706AM departure.
By the time that eastbound skip-stop service began in July 1968 the RJ was no longer operating.
For the record the last AM RJ from 168 Street (619AM) as well as all QJ departures from 629AM-906AM ran express on Broadway from Eastern Parkway to Essex Street stopping only at Myrtle Avenue.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Steve: Yes I remember those signs as well but I did not recall the colors.
Larry, RedbirdR33
What was the service like on those 2 fateful Saturday nights? The QB ran to Cortelyou Road only, a bus took you to Newkirk and Avenue H, and the N train looped through Coney Island up to Avenue H. (Luckily we lived at Beverley Road.) I used to have the brochures about that, but I haven't seen them in years in our house. My grandchildren (which I don't have yet) will find them when they clean the place out in 30 years.
The Brighton Line skip-stop service ran from February 10, 1964 to October 31, 1964.
Broadway-Brighton (Q) and Nassau-Brighton (M) made their regular express stops plus Parkside Avenue and Avenue J. Broadway-Brighton Locals (QB,QT) skipped Parkside Avenue and Avenue J. All trains used the local track between Prospect Park and Kings Highway though at Newkirk Avenue the local tracks were hard-railed in the express tracks. Between Kings Highway and Brighton Beach all four tracks were in use.
Larry, RedbirdR33
I swear I rode it later, but I'm sure you're correct.
Tony
Interesting, I had no idea they still did that until that late date. Remember 111th has perfectly good turning capacity, as it used to be the terminal for the Lexington El when it existed. That's one of the reasons it eas built with a center track unlike all the other stations on the line (other than 160th which also got a lay-up track).
That's what I thought, but Larry's information is almost always correct. Some rush hour J trains did begin at 111th, because for 2 years only one track (Manhattan bound) was available for in-service trains at 121st. The crossover which now exists east of 121st didn't exist until 1987 and wasn't used until that fall.
I wish I knew how to illustrate it better than with words.
But at least I was able to describe it accuratley :)
Tony: I'm afraid that I must disagree with you regarding the end of skip-stop service on the Jamaica Line. Skip-stop service ended on December 1, 1980. This was done because of the upcoming reconstruction of the five stations between Crescent Street and Alabama Avenue which were the oldest on the system. I don't recall the exact sequence of construction but I do know that two or three stations were completely closed for several months and totally rebuilt. While this construction work was ongoing it would have been impractical to operate the skip-stop service.
The subway maps of the time reflect this service change. Two maps were issued as 1979,Revised Fall 1980. The first of these has a side fold and the title is over the B and D lines. This one is the last one to show the skip-stop service.
The second map has a bottom fold and the title is over the 5 and 6 lines. This one shows the J without the skip-stop service.
Your right about the use of 111 Street as a terminal point for some J trains. THe configuration of 121 Street as a temporary terminal was poorly thought out and trains took an inordinate amount of time to travel from 121 Street to 111 Street.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Boy, you got that right. The temporary track configuration from 1985-87 allowed for only one train to move between 111th and 121st at a time and only one platform in use. This severly restricted capacity.
BUT, when there was the KK/ QJ skip stop, wasn't the stopping pattern a bit different??? Didnt the QJ make 2 stops, then skip 2, and the Kk the same???
Tony
Randy: I wondered if they had changed the signs when the QJ started running and yet they must have gone back to the A and B signs when the QJ was discontinued and the J began running. Eastbound skip-stop service lasted only as long as the KK did.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Darkside: You're welcome. Some time ago you asked for information about Queensboro Plaza I believe. I had gotten infomation together to mail to you.(Air Mail) but I lost your address and then promptly lost your address. Please e-mail me your postal address and I will send you the information.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Gerlach: E-mail not received as of Sunday 10pm Eastern Time.
My e-mail address is RedbirdR33@hotmail.com
Larry,RedbirdR33
Steve: I hadn't thought of that but your absolutely correct. I most often rode the IRT and it was common practice for railfans as well as normal people to identify uncoming trains by the marker lights.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Thanks for posting it.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Thanks
(4) WoodlawnBowlingGreen
I guess any decision can be revised, but are you sure about this one? Ie. the 75 footers will be replaced with 60 foot cars? In general, I think standardization is a good thing for maintenance.
--Mark
Now that I'm riding both regularly, I'd have to say that the R32s SEEM to move better than the R46s, even though the R46s were designed for higher speeds and are newer. The R46s seem underpowered getting up the curve to Smith-9th, and take curves slower.
The explanation is logical but not entirely correct.
The basic reason why 60' cars are being ordered is clearances on
the Eastern Division. As I'm sure you know, 75' cars do not clear.
When the 110B was being designed, someone remembered that 67'
ABs cleared on the Eastern Division, and so they designed a car which
was 67' long and 47' between body bolsters, just like the AB.
To their horror, it didn't clear! Everyone thought it was
"contractor creep", i.e. the clearance envelope getting smaller
since the larger cars hadn't run out there in 25 years to test
things.
In fact, jaws dropped when the truth was finally revealed: The
ABs had OFFSET TRUCK BOLSTERS! I.e. the center plate of the
bolster was not centered between the axles, it was closer to one
axle. This improved the end excess and it was those few inches
that made a difference.
I guess it was too darn complicated to design a new truck like
this, or maybe the decision to order 60' had already been committed,
but that's the true story.
This is true. However, consideration of an articulated IRT car that would have been 63' long was considered in the 1970s.
--Mark
max speed 50 mph, but can hit over 80 in design speed (R44)
There's no field shunting on AC motors, partly because it's something that simply does not exist on them.
Top speed can be regulated by limiting the output frequency of the inverter to a certain value. Once it hits that value, the train simply will not go faster. typically, this is 60hz, but can be any number you want, in a range of about 0 to 400hz. Generally, the output frequency is slightly higher than the rotor speed, by maybe .5hz or so.
Anyway, the neat thing about all of this is that acceleration and balancing speed are sepperate things - thus it's theoretically possible to have high acceleration right up to the maximum speed allowable, unlike all the field shunting stuff, where acceleration tapers off as you approach balancing speed.
Mechanically? At 55, the motors may actually be at or near their design maximum speeds. Well, in that case, no, you can't go faster.
I'm not so sure. It's possible for an AC motor with a closed-loop controller to mimic any performance spec. So, in theory the TA could have opted to have the AC motors mimic the "tried and true" DC motor performance.
What did they do? The propulsion network compatibility specification, that was published on the web might give some hint. The network messages do not issue commands like: go to x mph with y acceleration. Instead they say the controller is in X position. They appear to use a shaft encoder to measure X.
The encoder values are given as:
118-125: Emergency Braking
126-130: Full Service Braking
155-159: Minimum Service Braking
(126-159): Braking Range
160-168: Coast
169-173: Minimum Power Position
203-209: Maximum Power Position
(169-209): Power Range
They have only 40 discrete encoder positions in the pwer range. They appear to use 4 to 7 encoder positions for each function. So, it's entirely possible they have 4 or 5 real power steps for their control. Are these positions equivalent to the familiar DC controller positions? Quite possible. It sure isn't the command structure used for most motor controllers on the factory floor.
You are right, there is no separation of acceleration and velocity
commands. Most railway equipment is this way. But to answer
your question about discrete steps, both power and braking ranges
are continuous. There is nothing in the control that corresponds
to the old 3-point DC control. The braking range values represent
calls for a specific deceleration rate. The power range values
represent calls for a specific speed. The acceleration rate
is derived by each car, based on the difference between current
and desired speed. There are a bunch of limiting constraints.
There is jerk rate limit and there is a maximum acceleration rate,
which decreases with speed (do the calculations and see what the
motor hp would have to be to produce 2.5 MPH/s rate at 40 MPH).
There is also a "governor" that cuts off acceleration beyond
a certain speed, which I believe is currently 45 MPH. The
cars are mechanically and electrically capable of much higher
speeds.
I don't think $300 is a reasonable price for a freaking subway car(s)
(4) WoodlawnBowlingGreen
Everybody's gone light-rail crazy these days. I read the "Capital City" strategy that the nice folks of Belfast, Northern Ireland (I'm going there soon; wanna see what the transport situation's like) and they're talking about possible light-rail projects, but for some reason nobody ever talks about heavy-rail anymore!!
Heavy-rail is the real thing. Where will the new heavy-rail lines and systems be built?!?
Asia.
Also Baltimore(1983) and Atlanta (1979). If your definition of "modern times" goes back a bit farther, there's Washington (1976), BART (1972), and Montreal (1967).
> Heavy-rail is the real thing. Where will the new heavy-rail lines
> and systems be built?!?
I'm not aware of a single completely new "traditional" heavy rapid transit system even in the planning stages anywhere in North America, though there are extension plans in various stages of development for existing systems in New York, Washington, Chicago, and the Bay Area, at least. It's mostly a matter of money: true rapid transit is seen as being much more expensive than light rail.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
Is there really color coding in place in Philly? Seems like there should be.
OTOH, I refuse to acknowledge the alleged color-coding in Chi-town. The lines are Howard, O'Hare, Ravenswood, Evanston, Skokie, Midway, Lake street and they always will be!!!
As regards the Miami Intermodal video - I saw it online at the MIC project's official website.
The Subway Surface is remarkably enough, what it sounds like. It consists of Trolley cars, built by Kawasaki, and to my eye looking like boxy, oversized PCCs (admittedly absent any TRC components), which travel both in the Subway from the 13th and Market Subway terminal (also called Juniper St, for the North-South street it lies under) to 36th or 40th St Portals, where the trolleys take to the surface, just like any other trolley or LRV in the world. On the surface most of the running is in the street, with traffic, the only median trackage is on the 36 trolley on Island Ave, where there is some median and curb-side running. All routes are 100% double tracked, with cars locked in permanent loops, there are no cross-overs and the cars are uni-directional. Despite this seeming handicap, I've never been delayed for more than 5 minutes on a trolley, and then a delay of even that length is rare. The Subway Surface K-cars are the kings of the roads they travel down, and woe unto the poor sap who double parks on their tracks. The oil trucks may challenge their reign occasionally, parking themselves on the tracks to fill a house's tank, but they are just seasonal annoyances, soon to fade from memory, at least for 6 months or so.
The Rxxx routes you refer to are the Rt100, Rt101, and Rt102 trolleys, all of which travel from 69th St Terminal (western terminus of the MFL) to points west of the city in the suburbs.
The Rt100, also know as the P&W line, after the Philadelphia and Western Railroad that built the line back in the 1910s, is a line that almost defies definition. The purple colored line runs northwest from 69th St to Norristown, adjacent the R6 Norristown regional rail station. It's powered by overrunning 3rd rail, like the NYCTA, however it utilizes onboard fare collection and stop request lights, both on the train and on certain platforms (AFAIK, Bryn Mawr, Villanova, Villanova Stadium, Norristown, and of course 69th St Term all lack Stop Request Lights). At the same time it frequently gets over 70mph on it's express runs, nearly the entire line is double tracked, with only the northern-most end single tracked where it rolls across the Schuykill River, but there are express bypass tracks located at some local stations close to 69th St Terminal for the morning and evening express trains that fly past them. It's very hard to pin the Rt100 down in modern terms, the cars, passenger loads and operations are very LRV-like, but the power supply and ROW construction (there's also no grade crossings), point to a heavy rail design. Others have suggested Interurban, due to the stop request lights on the platform, apparantly a hallmark of the interurban services that once criss-crossed the midwest, and since there were a few 3rd rail-using Interurbans in the heyday of rail transit in the US. I tend to stick to calling it a LRV or Trolley, mostly to maintain commonality with it's companions at 69th St Terminal, the 101 and 102 trolleys, which are undeniably trolleys. It's worth noting that the Philadelphia and Western originally designed the line to be a 100mph running line to Chicago, which was obviously enough never completed.
The other two Rxxx routes are the Rt101 and Rt102 trolleys, also called the Red Arrow routes, again from the company that once ran them, Red Arrow. The brown colored 101 and 102 run southwest from 69th St terminal to Media (the 101), and Sharon Hill (102). These run cars similar to the Subway Surface cars, also from Kawasaki and purchased around the same time (1981 or so), however they're 3 feet longer and also are bi-directional with a pantograph pickup rather than a trolley pole as on the Subway Surface cars. The 101 has extensive single track running as it approaches Media, while the 102 really is only single tracked at the very end, for the last section around Sharon Hill.
Hope this helps you, and for more information than I could fit in here, along with photos, check world.nycsubway.org's section on Philadelphia here: http://world.nycsubway.org/us/phila/
That's MFSE (Market Frankford Subway Elevated)
Chuck Greene
Thanks for the correction
I haven't seen such a thing.
There's a center track in Bryn Mawr station for the Bryn Mawr locals to double back to 69th Street and let an express stop and proceed ahead of them. Perhaps that's what you're referring to.
The Subway Surface is remarkably enough, what it sounds like. It consists of Trolley cars...
Yes, they really are trolleys.
The outsiders can call the MFL whatever they want, but I always heard it called the blue line, or simply and more frequently, "the el". Just like how a small portion of the I-95 viaduct that makes a sharp bump is called the "diamond hill", after the furniture store(is it still there?).
I notice some people from some area's of the nation have a small problem where they call things the way they think it should be or sound instead of the locals, when it's how the locals talk is what really matters. Try getting directions to something that only exists in your head.
Also, where'd you see the miami video at? They say that intermodal center will rival Grand Central in a few ways. only problem is the rental car business is too strong, so they have to keep redesigning and working around those people.
http://www.urbanrail.net/news2.htm
Almost none are in North America--short extensions into the periphery in Washington and Montreal, a more substantial (but not, I think, fully funded) peripheral line in Toronto. Europe, Asia, and South America are all much more lively.
The thing you have to understand is that there are only eight (London, Manchester, Birmingham, Leeds, Liverpool, Sheffield, Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Glasgow) or so cities in the UK which have both the density and the sheer size for heavy rail to be a practical solution. Even these don't have enough money to put in heavy rail systems.
(I'm going there soon; wanna see what the transport situation's like)
There won't be peace in Ireland until the bus runs through between the Shankill and the Falls again.
After that, they plan on making further extensions to Caguas, the airport, old San Juan, and other towns.
WMATA has three active projects underway, one route extension under construction Largo Town Center Extension, one infill station under construction New York Avenue and a 23.1 mile long branch off the K Route Orange line to Tysons Corner, Washington Dulles International Airport and Loudoun County that is presently undergoing preliminary engineering as the project awaits final funding.
John
NYC Subway operates 24 hours a day… Join us in a "Salute To The Late-Night!"
Join fellow SubTalkers and Railfans alike for an evening of craziness on the subway! Real straphangers know that the system comes alive at night – GOs, Hobos, Live Poetry in Motion, Musicians, Trash-Trains, Redbird Sightings, Diesels… and, of course, the Joy of 20-Minute Headways. Avoid the overcrowding that is Rush Hour and join us for the uncertainty of Late-Night Service!
We will be meeting at the news stand in the 42 St mezzanine (near the IRT stairs) in the Times Square subway station sometime between 10pm and midnight. Exact meeting time will be decided upon by the participants later in the week.
Portions of this event will be videotaped as well as captured on still photography.
Everyone who wishes to videotape and/or take still photography must do so in accordance with NYCRR Title 21. Chapter XXI Section 1050.9(c) or they will be asked to leave.
Please either reply to this post or email subtalk@railfanwindow.com if you wish to attend. Do the same if you have any questions. Thanks.
What did you think I meant?
But if you want to go here on Sunday, shoot me an email. We might go visit it.
---Sir Ronald of McDonald
I'll be sure to let the locals know so they can take care of you Ronnie.
[The Times’s pressroom was directly below the station. “It is possible in the early morning hours to load the successive editions on subway cars for the most rapid general distribution,” the newspaper said in 1905 as it settled into a building it occupied for eight years before moving around the corner. An archway leading to the Times Building can still be seen on the shuttle platform]
I went looking for that today, and couldn't find it. Since there were plenty of orange jackets and cops around, I didn't want to look suspicious and didn't look too long.
Any clues where the archway is?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
'here is the link to the new map
http://www.transitgallery.com/showpic.php?aid=218&pid=9224&uuid=58
-Chris
http://www.transitgallery.com/showpic.php?uuid=58&aid=218&pid=9233
Good job on the map however are you going to leave it as is or are you adding the station names?
Does this make sense to anyone?
The 6 train. Gotta love it. *UGH!!*
But if your experience is that the V goes first, why don't you transfer to it? Presumably about half the time it's at the northbound platform. Better yet, ride in the lead car and check the homeballs.
To make matters worse - at Hunts Point, the express makes a connection with the local and then is held at Parkchester to wait for that same local to pull in. Then they hold the express so they can relay the local (and of course another local pulls in).
They really don't care that trains could be backing up on the middle track while they are doing all this (there have been times they would have the express do a skip all the way to Pelham because things are so backed up).
They are always jumping on the operating crews for "inconveniencing the customer". They should do the same to the tower and supervisory personnel as well.
Pelham bay can't turn 6 express trains fast enough, so you have trains backed up at buhre av and middletown road, then you have the idiots at parkchester who like to make the <6 > trains wait, and have them back up on the approach to parkchester.
If the terminal can't handle the influx of trains at their current rate, why do you want trains to pile up behind the terminal even faster?
Then they ask why parkchester is always so tied up. It definately has something to so with the living imcompetence inside the dispatcher's office.
There's a notion on SubTalk that express passengers are in a rush but local passengers have all the time in the world. It's nonsense. Local passengers are in every bit as much of a rush as express passengers; they're just coming from or going to local stations.
I'll bet if you were waiting at DeKalb for a Q, and the first train through after a B was another B ten minutes later, you'd complain about it here. How do you think that happens?
The opposite [B goes in front of Q] happens from time to time as well. But when you wait 12-15 minutes for either train to come, then obviously the scheduling is off.
I'll bet if you were waiting at DeKalb for a Q, and the first train through after a B was another B ten minutes later, you'd complain about it here. How do you think that happens?
My home stop is at an express station so it doesn't matter which train I take.
Meeting Time will be at 10:30 at the 10 Car Marker at Whitehall Street, Southbound Platform. At 10:50 we will leave the station and take the 11:00 ferry, then take a 11:30 train. Remember easier crowding, less people, more places to go. The more people the merrier I say, so if you want to come, please show up and enjoy yourself. I encourage you to go on both trips as obviously both will go to different stations, so go to both. But for those who can't go on friday, or want to go on a quieter day, please join.
-Chris
Port Authority Bus Terminal-175 Street (transfer to the A line)
Amsterdam Avenue
Sedgwick Avenue
Jerome Avenue (transfer to the 4 Line)
Grand Concourse (transfer to the D/B Lines)
Webster Avenue
Third Avenue
Southern Boulevard-Boston Road (Out of System Transfer to the 2 and 5 Lines)
174 Street
Westchester Avenue-Hugh J Grant Circle (transfer to the 6 Line)
Castle Hill Avenue
Bruckner Boulevard
East Tremont Avenue
Country Club Road
Buhre Avenue
Pelham Bay Park Terminal (transfer to the 6)
Earhart Lane
Bartow Avenue
Co-Op City Boulevard-Bay Plaza Shopping Terminal
This will provide access to subways in a way not possible other wise, gives a whole new range of transportation options. The whole trip would take 40 minutes. A light rail line, going east-west and north-south along a brand new reclaimed corridor, with a park with bike and walking paths would bring business, and increase land values along the corridor making the Bronx a nicer place to live and visit. Would rejuvenate the Bronx like never before and for the better. Light rail is also cheaper, and will look nicer. People would use it there would be no doubt in my mind, and all of you use it. Well everyone, take it into consideration. It's expensive, but the ugly site of the Cross Bronx Expressway will be gone (underground and increased flow, lowering pollution) and replaced with a nice form of transportation, that's safe, cheap, and effective. It will be a long time since a train has ran on surface level, since the trolies dissappeared, but it's a welcome that would be embraced. NIMBY's would have a hard time trying to stop this, because of all the positive benefits.
Losers? That's a rather bigoted term.
-Expressing or characterized by prejudice and intolerance.
Doesnt sound bigoted to me.
Now LRT will look nicer, but will this be totally beter than the traditional rapid transit NY is so familiar with? Or will this be in conjunction with or an alternative to already existing rapid-transit? If so, even better.
*NIMBY's would have a hard time trying to stop this*
NIMBY's don't usually have the clout and say when it comes to turning around a hell-hole into a vibrant beautiful area if you ask me. If they do, I suggest voting everyone out of office or just plain moving(even though I never advocate running away typically).
Won't work. There are several holes with the scheme. Firstly interchanges are hugely expensive. Secondly even if we really double decked the thing underground, the park at ground level will become a crime heaven, and no one will ride the LRT because it goes from park to park, and there is nowhere to shop without having to walk thru the park, and since the park is a criminal heaven no one will go there.
Now here is an alternative that might work. Sink the Cross-Bropx as is. Separate the center lanes by Jersey barrier creating a through route. On top, build a number of things: some parks, some retail developments at transit stops, and some housing next to the retail developments. Keep the light rail. Build transfers from light rail to the subway lines that criss cross the Cross Bronx. Ideally, anchor either end of the light rail at a really large demand generator (e.g. Park & Ride plus a big mall, or a college or a stadium or something similar).
1. Won't be a Crime haven as you think it is, thinking that is what a sterotypical person who hasn't been in the bronx would think. The stations are monitored by CCTV. So any criminals trying to do the dirty will obviously get caught on camera. Second Businesses will flock to be along the route's corridor, along the park, making the surrounding area more pleasant and more 24 hour.
2. Sinking the Cross Bronx as is IS THE WORST SOLUTION! It's a typical New Yorker way of handling things, it doesn't decrease traffic, it doesn't increase flow. With the pollution from the stalled traffic now in tunnels, it's extremely dangerous for drivers. Increasing the flow, increasing the # of lanes is the most important route and a double decked 16 lane highway does it. It's expensive as will the re-working of the Bruckner Expressway. But it must be done to allievate Congestion on one of the most busy through ways in the Nation. (180,000 cars use it per day). Cover and pretending it doesn't exist is what you're calling for. It's a politcians type of solution. Doesn't solve a damn thing.
Of course this doesn't always happen. If you have a good location with a lot of people walking around it or passing through, it all looks fine. There's a square in one downtown I always sit down in and hang around(even though it's surrounded by highrises and Police HQ), and a lot of other people sit there too. There's another square in another downtown, alsmot the same situation, but it's the most creepy and most destitute bunch of people I've seen.
******
Now, what I'm picturing of what you're talking about is two street running tracks, some sidewalks, and a lot of grass and tree's to cover the area...greenery. Instead of an elevated highway with nothing covering it and nowhere to walk with too many crime nooks and crannys. Just trains covered with greenery right? Not like a traditional park.
Do I got it?
And of course, if you have plenty of LRT passengers coming and going, you have a high pedistrian zone, without too many troublemakers.
Just in case neither of you experienced real life in a ghetto, a slum, or whatever is the politically-correct word of the day, it has been shown again and again that a transit line alone WILL NOT and CAN NOT regenerate an area. While I am not implying the current Cross-Bronx alignment is a slum or a ghetto, when you put in a bunch of vacant land (whether this be park, empty lots, brownfields, or whatever else), it will turn into a ghetto almost immediately unless efforts are made to use that land in some meaningful way. Transit can bring people to the vacant land and increase its value, so people will be more likely to use it in a meaningful way, but transit alone will not do it.
If you read the earlier post I made, I basically said that light rail is not a bad idea, and that park isn't a bad idea either, at least on the fringes. But around the stations you will need what they call "transit-oriented development". You need housing, and you need mixed-use space (commercial: shopping, and office space), and at the same time you want to preserve enough greenary to make it pleasent. It is not easy. And the people whose homes flank the alignment will have lots to say about it. They will want a community college, they will want playground for the kids, they will want a library, and a bunch of things. If you put in transit and a park, but none of these other things, it is a recipe for disaster.
I suggest you take a look at the creation of the Southwest Corridor in Boston. The development there is far from perfect. The commercial functions never really shifted from Center St. in Jamaica Plain to the newly created "linear park" transit corridor. But at least there are some new things there: new housing, new community college, and new playgrounds for the kids. Still that area is not as safe as it ought to be. The key is bringing in commercial interests, so people have a reason to be there other than just living there. Residential areas does not generate much transit traffic by itself. Think about it: you walk once in the am and once in the pm, that's it. In a commercial zone, you have to make lots of separate trips within the same day to get to lots of shops. All those eyes on the corridor and park makes it safer.
Illuminating the park will not do anything. Many rail yards are the best illuminated areas aside from football stadiums. Many train crews also carry personal protection in case they are robbed while walking along their train in the yard.
AEM7
And you're right. Though it is a chicken and egg situation. I'm thinking it's more of a greenway than a park, which just means a nice and beautified transitway than a secluded parked with squaler.
You just need to work you're way up or down starting at one end. As the values go up, and as the first developers go in, all the punks get naturally displaced.
I know some of these projects which are quasi-failures, only because of the druggies walk to the other side ofhte underpass and smash and grab all the cars, this should die off after some more development is built.
Then I see one that's doing very nicely, bordering a certain downtown, but on the other side of the geographic boundary(viaduct), in the poorest and most crime ridden area there is. Nice seeing 1600 a month apartments and offices go up next to housing where people make 1600 a year.
And what they always say and cry about, thos people in that picture have no say, and no money. They're going to be displaced someday soon and the FHA will just move them somewhere else.
There's millions of varibles, but nothings impossible. If i had the money and backing, I would be involved in urban infill tomorrow.
This in itself could create a problem. The 'punks' have a right to safe and cost effective housing also. Whether they have money or not, they are citizens of the United States. If you want a beautiful urban park bustling with commercial activity, you also need people to staff those commercial establishments. You will need to provide training to those 'punks' so they can contribute to society and make a buck for themselves. If you don't, they'll just stick around in the park and rob you.
Nice seeing 1600 a month apartments and offices go up next to housing where people make 1600 a year.
No, it's not nice. The displaced people have to go somewhere. If you put up the 1,600/month apartment on an empty lot that is something; if you are displacing poor people in order to build those new apartments, all you are going to do is to create a problem somewhere else. You need a housing/urban redevelopment strategy that is cohesive; there would have to be elements of transportation, economic development, urban beautification, and many more...
There's millions of varibles, but nothings impossible. If i had the money and backing, I would be involved in urban infill tomorrow.
Urban infill is nice. Don't trod on the poor inner city neighbourhoods while you go around investing in them.
AEM7
Here's what you have if you do nothing. You have yourself working somewhere, taxes(gas,prop, sales, income) taken out.
This other area is like a vortex. There is zero revenue from property taxes(big funding source for police/fire/transit). There's no sales tax when someone get's burglerized or some suburbian kid looks around for drugs, therefore no revenue. The area can't sustain itself at all. It costs plenty of money for all the cops, and yes, there typically is more in bad area's than good ones. Public schools costs money too, even if the absenteism rate is 60% or 25%, if they drop out or not. And prisons, in my state it costs 24k a year to house someone, and you don't want to go to our state pen.We don't treat you well at all, so I don't know where the 24k goes.
Who pays for all that? The person somewhere else paying the tax. That's not a good status quo. And the good people in that neighborhood don't like it either, and not a single human being should have to live that way.
And of course when people yell loudly about displacement and all that, it's not always the people being displaced, but yet they always seem to convince everyone not to do anything and help anyone. The displacement system sucks though, but like I said, no one should be living like that, and the good people don't like it there, and they don't like being burglerized. I'd like to see a better system there. But anyway, keep yelling and trying to save everyone, when it get's worse, because the current situation isn't working and is a crime against humanity in itself. Reminds me of how people turned their heads the other way in post-war Lousiana.
But that picture itself is indeed beautiful. And no one is going to care if I go around trodding on prime inner-city real-estate, because no sane compassionate person thinks America should look like a shanty town.
The [regional] economics analysis is sound, but the implementation is wrong. Displacement is not a problem if and only if the losers are adequately compensated. I just saw a talk on this last week. Essentially, the construction of I-90 through Boston displaced so many poor people (and some rich people) that it got everyone pissed off enough to force a highway construction moratorium in 1972. Now, that in itself wasn't a bad move, but the fact that displacement without adequate compensation triggered off what amounted to a highway revolt is a lesson well learned. If you want to build a housing project and you need to move some ghetto/shanty out the way, you need to pay these guys off. When the government comes along and tell you that they're going to do you a huge favour by kicking you out of your house and taking it for a project, it doesn't work.
Hell, my parents got kicked out of their house in Leeds for an urban renewal project when I was growing up. I was too young to remember, but now they tell me the I-90 story and I can entirely relate.
AEM7
Your pal,
Fred
Robert Moses Two Favorite Words: Eminent Domain
But the Cross? It screwed up the Bronx more than the opening of Co-Op chitty ... then again, the Concourse folks who moved there SURE got theirs in the end. Just like Simpson Street. Republicans surely *DO* eat their young. :)
The BRONX was always a UNIQUE place - aside from Villa and Arthur Avenues, "INTEGRATION" was a non-event. And yet, specific neighborhoods had specific immigrant histories and when "white people" moved, the specifics merely shifted but remained solid. Former "Jewish" neighborhoods" tended to turn "mixed" while former IRISH neighborhoods tended to become hispanic, former ITALIAN neighborhoods tended to become "black" ... and wave after wave since tended to inhabit specific neighborhoods as populations shifted - the NEWCOMERS tending to also inhabit specific neighborhoods.
What COOP CITY did though was force a RAPID vacuum of population, resulting in a LOT of abandoned buildings or buildings so low in occupation that it was no longer viable for the landlords to maintain. As far as the CONCOURSE went with its "luxury apartments" of higher quality, THOSE buildings became occupied by "underclasses" while the stable neighborhoods a mere block away (Valentine Ave as an example) went STRAIGHT to hell and burned. With so many abandoned buildings, the Bronx BURNED ... such was the "popular culture" of the 70's - "you go to the Bronx to DIE". :(
Moses' iron curtain along with Coop City was behind ALL of that. :(
That's the natural problem with highway building. Even if not outdated it wont' take long. I guess you might not have this problem as much in the megalopolis though. Things are pretty built up, not much room to sprawl. There's still population growth, but there's some places where building a highway won't result in 300% growth.
You wanna check out an ugly highway? Watch that opening graphic chage to the after portion It needs expanding, but having a mile wide strip of asphalt ain't going to help the rejuvenation efforts on the other side(that's a "slum").
And my economics tell me that if it ceased to be a practical, let alone a critical route, it would not be packed.
Second, this is only a bronx thing, New Jersey and Queens are not to be apart of this. This is an improvement project for the bronx. To reclaim what Robert Moses official destroyed.
OTOH, the overloading shouldn't just be accommodated. Six lanes is enough. The problem is the pile-up at the ends and the on-ramps, and it's largely from trucks, which should be handled by ferry access, a good rail connection, etc. 97% of Long Island freight comes by truck (vs. 75% everywhere else). Solve that problem first, and then see how much of the X-Bx that cleans up.
How about use squeeze into the median where possible and stack two sets of rails, freight and passenger, and use the upper level to split off the "B" train at 174-175 St and send it over to Parkchester? Even loop back down to the SAS?
Another line would begin at Journal Square, shoot north along the Bergenline Av/JFK North corridor into Fort Lee and join the CoOp City Line there over the George.
What do you think?
Well, I don't know about that. It's all about expanding the options.
That part of Bergen County is pretty dense and there are a LOT of people from that area who commute to the city by bus, train, and auto (probably in that order).
The trains could also take some pressure off the highways in the Paramus area on Saturdays when everybody and their cousins go shopping.
But I agree there should probably be some redevelopment along NJ-4 & 17. For example, while I love Bergen Mall because it is a relic of the early days of shopping malls and a stepping into it is like stepping into a time machine, the place is pretty much dead. Yes, people DO shop there, but it's never crowded and I can always get a good parking spot right near the door, even on Saturdays.
A suburban infil redevelopment project can completely transform that parcel of land into a mixed-use community with apartment-style housing and a new retail complex. There also needs to be much better pedestrian connections between all the strip malls because it is just so damn stupid to have to get back in your car, go around the world and nearly kill yourself just to go to a store that's across the highway!
Along with this, I propose a network of elevated walkways. They'd be wide, enclosed but with lots of glass, and climate-controlled, very much like the pedestrian bridges that connected the WTC with the WFC over West Street. Venders and kiosks could set up in them; they'd be sidewalks in function, skywalks in form.
Problem is, you'd have to have a training program in Paramus to teach people how to walk in a situation that doesn't involve walking to or from the car...;-)
Of course, HBLR should also be extended over the old Northern and West Shore Lines as well. Those lines would meet up at the Palisades Center where another large transit center would be built. The West Shore line would be commuter rail from Newburgh down to the PC, then go over a new Tappan-Zee and connect with the Hudson Line into Grand Central. The TZX buses would bring people from around Rockland County to the PC transit center, and offer connecting service over to White Plains, much like it does currently.
Maybe a new commuter line could also run from Suffern could run through Tallman, Airmont, Spring Valley (forgot who owns that ROW) to the PCTC, then over the TZ and down the Hudson.
The light rail would take passengers who work in Lower Manhattan or Hudson County.
See, it all makes sense up here... ::points to head:: ;-)
IDK. A main idea behind West Shore is the meadowlands connection. I agree with you about HBLR on the Northern Line, but West Shore should definately be commuter rail all the way to Hoboken via Meadowlands.
"Maybe a new commuter line could also run from Suffern could run through Tallman, Airmont, Spring Valley (forgot who owns that ROW) to the PCTC, then over the TZ and down the Hudson. "
I agree fully, and apparently, so does the MTA and some others. They plan to use this ROW as part of the 287 rail project. The only thing that is different, they plan to run the line to GCT via the Harlem, not the Hudson. This is b/c of an elevation difference that can not be overcome.
Yeah, expanding the roadway that much will almost definately increase flow allowing for buses/w.e else you wanna throw in to move easier, but since driving will have become so easy, no one will ride the public transportation routes.
We don't give yuppies food stamps or welfare. Why do we give them an 80-percent break on buses and trolleys? Many say to fight congestion, but with only 2 percent of daily commutes on transit, it makes little difference. *
I'm wondering how all those people in Phoenix are starting to do with construction set to begin.
I'm so thankful to live in a place with public support(or at least all the newspapers) of mass transit. Even though they never up the funding and don't build anything, but at least I don't have to read stupid crap liek that.
There was former Denver news anchor who was against light rail even back in 1980. He had an editorial commentary on the nightly news in 1980 and billed light rail as being something nice to have, but not an end-all solution. I wonder what he would say if he were still alive today.
In some ways, Colorado is still trying to shake its image as a just-say-no state.
A very similar attitude prevails in Auckland, New Zealand, which despite having a population of about 1.3 million has a minimal rail system. They are trying to improve it - starting with building a fine, new, centrally located, main station based on a historic post office building (now does that sound familiar at all?). Unfortunately they haven't got as far as improving the train service itself yet (8-( . And outside that fine new station I saw a man (not affluent looking) with a placard opposing the expenditure of tax revenues on the 2% or so of people who use trains. A taxpayers' revolt may still derail the train improvements. In Wellington, which is much smaller, there is a passable, and quite well-used, suburban rail system which is part of an integrated transport system with the buses. But even that suffers from deferred maintenance and its rolling stock is pretty old.
So what would you do with the service roads and the Q44 and Bx36, which uses the Cross Bronx? Also I would think that traffic flow would go way up since people wouldn't have to use the surface streets and people have an alternative to the Bruckner Expwy.
Port Authority Bus Terminal-175 Street (transfer to the A line)
You mean the George Washington Bus Terminal.
In the next few weeks, the G.O.s for the switch work south of Essex will begin, though they won't affect service right away.
For anyone who hasn't yet heard, completion is said to be in September. Since this is underground, we shouldn't have all the setbacks due to weather that were experienced on the similar Atlantic. Ave. project. :-)
How bad can underground weather be?
Robert
Why do you remain skeptical? Every car now has A/C installed. That heat has to go somewhere.
If it only takes as little energy as it's needed to cool the trains to make stations substantially hotter, them it would be very cheap to cool the stations too.
Arti
Doesn't matter. There are many more people who ride the trains or work on them than work on platforms.
Why do you remain skeptical? Every car now has A/C installed. That heat has to go somewhere.
Tunnels and stations have more volume and thus a greater mass of air than all of the cars running underground at one time.
Surveys have shown that the temperature in the subway is in fact not much higher than outside. The humidity is a different story. So where does the moisture come from? The A/C?
They were able to get away with closing 57th/6th nights and weekends for years...
IIRC, the only time 57th/6th was closed to all service was during the asbestos cleanup problem of September 1989 and the midday/weekend Manhattan bridge closure of 1995.
http://groups.msn.com/NYCSubwayMiscellany/airtrain.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=112
I get on at Hoyt, Jay or High (depending on whether I use the G train, or one of 2 buses). If I'm going to B'way Nassau, Chambers, Canal, W4th, 14th, 34th, 42nd or 59th, I would take either the A or the C. If I'm going to 145th, I'd use the A and save a couple of mins.
: ) Elias
[The Times’s pressroom was directly below the station. “It is possible in the early morning hours to load the successive editions on subway cars for the most rapid general distribution,” the newspaper said in 1905 as it settled into a building it occupied for eight years before moving around the corner. An archway leading to the Times Building can still be seen on the shuttle platform]
I went looking for that today, and couldn't find it. Since there were plenty of orange jackets and cops around, I didn't want to look suspicious and didn't look too long.
Any clues where the archway is?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Steam locomotive video's from 1897
link is here I'm making a new post.
The original post was a link from a search that timed out apparently. This link goes to the subject links themselves. Video's are amazing.
You ride in a subway car with no air conditioning just because there are seats available. You and the other three passengers look at each other and know you have pure grit.
You take the train home and you know exactly where on the platform the doors will open that will leave you right in front of the exit stairway.
You know what a "regular" coffee is
It's not Manhattan, it's the "City".
You get upset that a cabbie is obeying all the rules of the road
You're willing to take in strange people as roommates simply to help pay the rent.
There is no North and South. It's uptown or downtown. If you're really from New York you have absolutely no concept of where North and South are.
You cross the street anywhere but on the corners and you yell at cars for not respecting the fact.
You move 8,000 miles away, spend 10 years learning the local language and people still know you're from Brooklyn the minute you open your mouth.
You return after 10 years and the first foods you want are a "real" pizza and "real" bagel.
A 500 square foot apartment is large.
Your co-worker commutes 45 minutes by train to a 2,000 square foot house in the suburbs that was the same price as that same 500 square foot apartment of yours that takes only 35 minutes to get to and you think he's a sucker.
You know the differences between all the different Ray's Pizzas.
You are not under the mistaken impression that any human being would be able to actually understand a P.A. announcement on the subway.
You know who Dr. Z is.
You have at least 50 menus in your apartment, two thirds of which you have neither ordered from nor even heard of.
You wouldn't bother ordering pizza in any other city.
You know that off - the - shelf insecticides are just laughing gas to the superior roaches cohabitating with you in the 500 square foot apartment.
You get ready to order dinner every night and must choose from the 4 major food groups: Chinese, Italian, Mexican or Indian.
You're not in the least bit interested in going to Times Square on New Year's Eve.
Your internal clock is permanently set to know when Alternate Side of the Street parking regulations are in effect.
You know what a bodega is.
You know how to fold the New York Times in half, vertically, so that you can read it on the subway or bus without knocking off other passenger's hats.
Someone bumps into you, and you check for your wallet..
You don't even notice the nice lady walking down the road having a perfectly normal conversation with her self.
You pay "only" $230 a month to park your car.
You cringe at hearing people pronounce Houston St. like the city in Texas.
The presidential visit is a major traffic jam, not an honor.
Film crews on your block annoy you, not excite you. (They take up all the parking spaces!)
You can nap on the subway and never miss your stop.
You look forward to riding the subway to read the next installment of "Marisol and Julio".
The deli guy gives you a straw with any beverage you buy, even if it is beer.
Did that a couple of years ago on the #7 when the redbirds were still running. It was a warm day and I got a seat along with three other passengers. I did it to savor the last days of the axiflow fans.
"It's not Manhattan, it's the "City".
Years ago before the Newkirk Ave Station (Brighton) was rehabbed, there were station annunciators above entrance doors to the stairs that lit up and buzzed whenever a train approached in either direction. IIRC the signs said "Trains from city" and "Trains to city".
One point that was missed on that list was buying a hamburger anywhere but NYC and getting ketchup AND mustard on it. That's a no no in NY !
Bill "Newkirk"
Ya brought back FOND memories of what entranced me when I worked the Brighton line "back in the day" ... not ONLY did they say to or from "CITY" but I always found "TO MANHATTAN" amusing as well - to those of us who lived in the Bronx, midtown was simply "DOWNTOWN" ... and the return trip home was "UPTOWN AND THE BRONX" ... heh.
I take it all that's done? :(
And as far as "air conditioned car" goes - sorry, ONE thing I learned when I moved upstate is that summer colds are UNNATURAL ... they JUST don't happen ... unless you hang out in closed-up "smell ya later, homie" air conditioned traps. I'd MUCH rather schvitz than be chilled. And when you LEAVE the A/C, then what? Ow! I prefer "hot cars" as long as the windows are open and air is moving ... I woulda been there myself in that car. And as we all know, before A/C in the trains, there *WAS* air ... and it MOVED. If it didn't, storm door! (and folks don't understand why we LIKED R16's and 17's and HATED the 21's and higher. :)
The standards, arnines and even the 10's had a BREEZE through the storm door, even if it was closed. And the CABS were heavenly. In the worst of the heat, drop the sash, crack open the door and we had it MADE in the SHADE in those old cabs. (grin)
Worked for Stewart-Warner DATAFAX for a spell, guess WHERE? (hint: GULF building) and got to do the "Cleveland PIANO BAR" trips because as a Bronx resident, couldn't GET a "Sheriff's card" for beer there - made the mistake on my FIRST day in town asking for a "buttered roll" and everybody went "EEEWWWWW!" ("sweet rolls" was all they had) ... :(
SMOKED DOPE in "Market Square" with the JAZZ MUSICIANS ("David Peel" and a chap named "John Lennon" who were somehow considered "jazz musicians" among the local hippies - I *won't* comment further there) ... as far as *I* am concerned, two pickets to Titsburg was MY idea of a pretty damned cool city - where the Allegheny and the Monongahela met (hope I was close on spelling) ... bottom line is I thought it to be a TRAGICALLY HIP place ... in the '70's but HEY ... BEEN there, done that, y'all WEIRD with that chipmunky speedo-speak stuff! *AND* yer gottamn "catsup" ... :)
But nahh, still a GREAT place to be, except for our posterior orifice of a mayor, no smoke, no soot, clean rivers, itsa good time to go back, but what can I say, love my new home, LOVE my newly adopted subway (Pittsburgh light rail, what a joke. Puhleeze. Lived there 18 years and never rode it once). I have to admit, I'm in a Noo Yawk state of mind.....:0)
P.S. y'all WEIRD with that chipmunky speedo-speak stuff! *AND* yer gottamn "catsup"
Chipmunk speedo speak? A reference to our infamous yunz??? Hehehe. And what can I say, there's sick pleasure for me in dumping a bottle of Heinz on a corner dog..muahahaha!
One of these days you'll have to come down to North Carolina and eat hot dogs and hamburgers the way G-d and nature intended: chili and raw onions on the burger, the same plus slaw on the dog :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
http://www.bubbasbbq.com/
Just DRIVE there ... you WON'T be disappointed, and Bubba's only TOO happy to explain the GRITS plantation and how grits arrived on your table from shaking all them GRITS trees to make it all happen. :O
And yo, yo, yo, Anon_e_mouse ... don't screw this up by commenting. Let them visit "America" and then y'all can have a proper chuckle. :)
Aww... you mean I can't tell them about the secret of red-eye gravy, and why we have so many one-eyed drunks? :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The STREETCARS, as well as the DUQUESNE INCLINE (scwoo "Angel's Flight," the INCLINE is SERIOUS) made Pittsburgh a GREAT city ... as did its "freak movement" in the 70's ... it's a WONDEROUS place despite itself ...
Now GET me my damned buttered roll! No STRIKE that, I wanna BIALY or a DANISH! Hold the "catsup." :)
And these weirdoh's out here in the granola state (nothing but fruits, flakes, and nuts...) put MAYONNAISE on their french fries. BLECCHHHH!!
Actually, when I first read your post, I was thining, "Oh well, he WAS an IND man!"
Back in the 50's and 60's, it was easier to tell everything apart when it was steel-dust soot black, than after it got painted those ugly MTA colors.
It gets worse!
In North Dakota they put MUSTARD on hamburgers, and Ketchup on Hot Dogs!
YIKES, where my plane ticket!
Elias
That was common in many outdoor BMT stations before the 80's rebuild era. I remember that when growing up at Parkside Ave/BMT.
All BMT stations had those. I remember them well at Forest Parkway, before the rehab of the late 1980's. 88th St. on the A still has them, but they're not operational.
ditto for Rockaway Blvd.
They were ceiling mounted, and were bulbs behind plastic stencilled "From City" and "To City".
Interestingly, the southbound side had "From City" yet the northbound side had both "To City" and "From City". I guess that had to do with the old specials, but wouldn't "To City" apply in either case?
Bill: You don't know how true this is. Many Metro-North riders including myself will ride in the hot car in order to have some space.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Is *that* what they were trying to say!
Sheesh!
And to think that I told them there was no such street in NYC>
: ) Elias
Then again, the District of Columbia has a street called "Porto Rico Avenue". It hasn't been written like that anywhere else since 1958.
Here's a page about Houston Street
Then there's General Zod of "Superman II" who referred to Earth as "Planet Hoostin". The trooper's reaction to him, Ursa, and Non :
"They gotta be from Los Angeles !"
What *I* learned moving upstate - *NO* jobs (unless on your KNEES before a politico - yeah, Unca Selkirk was a HO ... but I got better through rehab tho') ... RULE of reality is MAKE YOUR OWN JOB or grow whacky terbacky ... GUESS what NOO YAWK's "cash crop" is ... hint, ain't corn or tomatoes ... I made my OWN gig (honest, selling software) but for many OTHERS around here who don't suckle at the state teat, it's "cash crop" ... :(
If SOUTHERNERS would get rid of their elected MORONS, the growing season down THERE is long enough to get 16 feet high. :)
You wonder how bad were the tenements on the Lower East Side.
You know never to shake an Egg Cream in a bottle.
A $1200 a month, 2 room apartment in Manhattan is considered "cheap".
You know where are all the Ray's Pizzas.
You know it's Saturday morning because someone is filming down the block from you.
Anywhere outside of Manhattan it not The City.
Greater New York is always Manhattan.
Another Batman sequel is being filmed and suddenly there are temporary "Gotham City" signs are posted all over.
Katz is not just a misspelling for small animals available at an animal shelter.
You think anything "uptown" of 59th Street is upstate New York.
You know "Thank you for not smoking" and "Learn English !" in five languages, and alphabets and ideograms, besides English.
You get off at the addresses on the "Learn English !" ads instead of your home or work stop.
You think it's as far from the East River to the Hudson River as it is from the Hudson River to the Pacific Ocean.
Yout think it's as far from Riverdale in the Bronx to the southern tip of Staten Island, as it is from the southern tip of Staten Island
to Key West, Florida.
For more details, see the "New Yorker" map of the United States.
You lie awake nights, unable to sleep, comparing "Get Spicey" to the girls of "Budweiser : True".
When you're paranoid, yet right, all or most of the time.
When the tests come back, and you're relieved that it's herpes, and not anthrax.
I wish I remembered more.
I hear you there. When I was in California, people were surprised when I told them that I was 21 (or 22) with no driver's license.
You cringe at hearing people pronounce Houston St. like the city in Texas.
Also. Just to give another little spoiler to the second version of the 2 line for BVE, I have a graphic that shows up when the train is passing Houston Street station. The graphic says, "It's pronounced HOW-ston, not HEW-ston!"
You take the train home and you know exactly where on the platform the doors will open that will leave you right in front of the exit stairway.
I can do a bit better on that one. You get on at any point of the train, and know which door on the train will lead you to the desired stairway at the exit stop.
I also heard this one story from a guy at church about how, as he was in Salt Lake City, was riding the TRAX light rail. He gets up out of his seat and waits by the doors in advance of the approaching exit station. People were giving him weird looks, like they've never seen anyone do that before! People do this all the time in the subway.
Weird. When I was in New York (still am), people were surprised when I told them that I was 17 and had a driver's license.
Oddly, I live in NYC myself, and nobody was surprised that I was 17 and had a drivers license. OTOH, I live in Eastern Queens, shop in Nassau County, and traveled from Hoboken to Queens using the Tappan Zee Bridge. :-)
Even in Philadelphia people don't do that.
But then, what I come for HERE is the "behind the scenes" and the "war stories" from current TWU brothers and sisters and don't get what I want HERE either, thus about the only thing of real interest to me is the POLITICS and how it applies to transit and the extremely sad "New York state of mind" ... I really DESPISE politicians personally and wouldn't shed a TEAR if Al Qaeda took out DC ... where I *DO* shed a tear is when "terrorists" SUCCEED in terrorizing *MY* city. :(
But as to the POLITICOS, they DESERVE to get bombed as far as I'm concerned. But as the gag, had no idea it was over there - had I known, I woulda posted THIS instead ...
FOR ALL THE *SPAM* OUT THERE ...
A man walks into the dentist's office and after the dentist examines him, he says, "that tooth has to come out.
I'm going to give you a shot of Novocaine and I'll be back in a few minutes."
The man grabs the doc's arm, "no way. I hate needles I'm not having any shot!"
So the dentist says, "okay, we'll have to go with the gas."
The man replies, "absolutely not. It makes me very sick for a couple of days. I'm not having gas."
So the dentist steps out and comes back with a glass of water, "here," he says. "Take this pill."
The man asks "What is it?"
The doc replies, "Viagra."
The man looks surprised, "will that kill the pain?" he asks.
"No," replies the dentist, "but it will give you something to hang on to while I pull your tooth!"
Barum-pum. :)
I see. A coincidence in other words.
- I don't BOTHER with "RD" since it's full of whiners who DON'T know how to run a train, much less a railroad. I've never found that place interesting. :(
God Selly, you're the last poster here I'd expect to make that sort of idiotic claim. There are plenty of 'whiners' too if you haven't noticed. When will posters here figure out that RD isn't as bad as what certain posters make it out to be. It's a lot more organized as well, IMO.
Of course, you're likely to ignore this reply Selly. I personally don't blame you one bit.
Sure.....now you and I BOTH did that with 200 other people cramped into one Arnine on the D train for years.....when air conditioning was an unknown invention on the NYCTASubway!! :-)
But yeah, us "morons" who DIDN'T run for the overpacked R42's didn't GET "summer colds" ... heh.
You know the differences between all the different Papaya's.
(while 72 and Bway is the norm, the 86 and Lex location has the most
diverse and extensive food menu I've yet to encounter Papayally).
As to which was the --FIRST NEW YORK-- site, I don't know for certain but
I was first intro'd to Papayas by way of 72 and Bway.... then found the 1 at 23 and Bway
then Chambers and 8th.... then 86 and Lex.
a su lado.
a su lado
Does it have to do with a certain AM radio station which bears my first name? :-p
86th has the more extensive menu, but we dog-folks pay with mercy
for the prices are STARK HIGH in contrast to the common $2.45 at 72st.
I'd have 2 dawgs and a Pina Colada at 72st ANY-DAY.... but when at the Met, 86 and Lex it is.
Si, Wado a su lado, brah!! :)
I don't know about that one. Not 6th Ave. and 8th?
STARK HIGH in contrast to the common $2.45 at 72st.
I need to check the current price at 6th and 8th...
> I don't know about that one. Not 6th Ave. and 8th?
I think he means Chambers and Church.
You go to an electronics store and look for an Asian looking guy to ask questions, whether he works there or not.
You can say "hot"(spicy) in at least three languages.
You start growing tomatoes on your fire escape.
You stay on the uptown 6 during evening rush, even though an express just rolled in across the platform.
You're driving around Woodstock, ask for directions to local people and do not realize that "that first intersection" is actually a forty minute drive until you get there.
You try to walk "a few blocks" in LA.
Only if it was Domino's or Pizza Hut. I wouldn't trust pizza in any other state except New Jersey. Plus, my father, Arrow III Senior, whenever coming up here to visit MUST have a real CONEY ISLAND Kinish.
Regards,
(J)immy
Now if only they could get fresher and cheaper seafood in Chicago...
Regards,
Jimmy
Regards,
Jimmy Bean
I haven't had coffee in years. Or non-iced tea, or hot cocoa.
Da Hui
Not so! Plenty of sub shops in NYC. Never heard it called wedges or grinders in the City, though.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Sorry Kev, born & raised in the City and had my license at 17.
> You're not in the least bit interested in going to Times Square on New Year's Eve.
Some friends convinced me to go in 2000 when everyone was scared of Y2K. Most boring night of celebration I can think of.
> You take the train home and you know exactly where on the platform the doors will open that will leave you right in front of the exit stairway.
Ok, I used to do it all the time coming from from high school, but its probably still the same (unless they moved the 10 car marker when they redid the station). The exit gate is the next to last door of the second car on an R44 or first door on an R38.
Heh. I drove my first car when I was 16 ... didn't get a license though until 18. Whoops. :)
>Some friends convinced me to go in 2000 when everyone was scared of Y2K. Most boring night of celebration I can think of.
WE went to MONTREAL ... not because we were afraid of Y2K, but because we were tired of the HYPE and all of our friends and neighbors in their bomb shelters. Nobody wanted to come out and play except le Quebecois. Bonne Annee! :)
>Ok, I used to do it all the time coming from from high school, but its probably still the same (unless they moved the 10 car marker when they redid the station). The exit gate is the next to last door of the second car on an R44 or first door on an R38.
Showoff! :)
When I lived at 205th, it was a ramp past the front of the first car. When I lived at 204th, it was a stairway past the end of the LAST car. Not nukular brain science. (grin)
Thanks for playing, Don Pardo please tell him what he's won ...
Or, when you meet people of ANY age, who actually have no idea what a "Spaldeen" or a "Pennsy Pinky" is, or who think a "candy store" is the Fannie Farmer stand at the local mall.
Funny you should mention Sonny Fox ... knew him rather well. A VERY strange man ... but my BEST BUDDY was none other than the "Amazing Randi" who I worked for as a kid (cleaning up and feeding the animules) on Saturdays at the Neptune Pet Shop on Johnson Avenue in Riverdale ... got me a LOT of "peanut gallery time" on Wonderama in exchange. And Randy's alive and well (well - some question that) as the premiere debunker of other people's silliness ... for anyone who remembers the "Amazing Randi" ... drop by and say hello ... it'll make him ill and give him gas. :)
http://www.randi.org/
Bruce Morrow went on to "Sillerman-Morrow Broadcasting" a group owner of FM's (even owns the famed WDST in Woodstock) - Bolton died, so did Ray Heatherton (though his daughter Joey Heatherton is STILL looking pretty neat) ... they finally DRAINED the CoCoMarsh and FOUND Jimmy Hoffa and lemme see ... the D train moved but there's STILL folks who know how to make egg creams (Fox's U-Bet can NOW be found in Nebraska - OK, in a "secure undisclosed location" but it's OUT there!) and the world continues to rotate.
Only BAD outcome is that Rupert Murdoch now owns "channel 5." :(
And I forgot to mention other things in the previous - like Sandy Becker going into the looney bin so many times they had to drag Sonny Fox out of the sales office to "fill in" ... SOUPY SALES ... "I like to take my girl to the ballpark ... (CENSORED by Powell's little Colin at the FCC today) ... " and let's not forget Unca CHUCK MCCANN who actually did MOVIES ... even RECENTLY ... Chicago might have had Bozo the clown, but so did WE ... and as WE know up north of Times Square, no neighborhood is properly decorated without tied sneaks hanging from the phone poles. (extra credit to Brooklyn, like other things, they picked up on our trip too) ...
Oh the rich compost we no longer have in NYC now that we've chased all those artists out by calling them "liberals" instead of the more proper and accurate "crazier than a trapped rat." :)
Brucie used to own the local station here in Middletown also..knew one girl who worked there,trying to become a real radio person and said that he was a real..well..pr---..was VERY strange to see Cousin Juicy at the local Arby's,munchin down on a Beef n Chedder
And I believe that is USED to own WDST,as they certainly sold OUR station to a large radio group...
For the on-topic moment, he had a REAL subway phobia ... wouldn't even ride the Brighton from Sheepshead Bay (where he lived off Ocean Ave) to Coney ... but he had few real friends ...
Up here for some reason,the 'candy store' was given the much more upscale term 'confectionary'..same little soda fountain...same everything...just called a 'confectionary'...
Do you remember the Sandy Becker characters : Norton Nork, The Big Professor, Hambone, Eeba Geeba(puppet : I can't hear the name Abba Eban without thinking of him !)How about the Sandy Becker routine,
"Leader Of The Laundromat" (based on "Leader Of The Pack") ? How about the Eeba Geeba joke, "If hurricanes had men's names, they'd be himmicanes !" How about "Catch Max !" on the Sandy Becker show, 1964-65(?).
How about The Big Professor always forgetting his book, and having to come back for it ? Once, "Uncle" Fred Scott (WNEW newsman, thin, bow tie, plaid jacket)came back for it instead !
Do you remember this Hambone quatrain ? :
"In days of old
"When knights were bold
"Their suits were steel
"Their pants were cold !"
What film's theme song was used on Sonny Fox's Wonderama ? And when did Bob McAllister take over the show from Sonny Fox ? I know it was 1969 or earlier.
How did you like those Flash Gordon episodes Sonny Fox used to show on Wonderama ? Was Fox's real name, Fuchs ? If so, perhaps a relation of Leo Fuchs, of the Yiddish Theater ?
"We're gonna taste Turkish Taffy ! Hey ! It's delish !"
How about those people who (in Jay Leno's words) think a movie theater is a concrete bunker at the end of the shopping mall ?
The Sonny Fox Wonderama theme song was from "The Unsinkable Molly Brown" (I'm gonna learn how to read and write, I'm gonna see what there is to see !") but, as a kid, I watched Wonderama before I saw
"The Unsinkable Molly Brown" at Radio City, so, when I saw the movie, my reaction was, of course, "Hey, that's the Wonderama theme song !"
I remember the kids waving at the camera.
I remember reading about the Bob McAllister Wonderama in the Sunday NY Daily News. The article mentioned the kids on the show being given Royal Crown Cola and ice cream, and being asked, "What would you rather do ? Live a million years, get a million dollars, or save a million lives ?" Fortunately, for WNEW and its ratings, the kids answered, "Save a million lives".
I once had a friend who attended Newtown High School. On one of my walks through Elmhurst in the '80's, it seemed to loom in the distance like a fairy tale castle, so, on my next walk there, I took ten minutes to walk around it, get a good look at it, and admire its
architecture.
I was in Queens last weekend for a movie, dinner, and to see a friend. The UA Midway at Queens Blvd. and Continental Ave. is up to nine screens now. Jahn's of Richmond Hill is still there.
Great visit ! Great memories ! I know I should be on the Queens Board with this stuff, but what the hell.
While waiting for "When Harry Met Sally" to start, at the Continental 3 on Austin St. off 70th Rd. in May 1989 (used to be the biggest movie screen in Queens) I overheard a guy talking about "the old Midway" when it was one screen, and how impressed he was with "Thunderball" as a kid on that screen.
I saw some of the Connery Bond films at the Ridgewood Theater as a kid. The scantily clad women in them were my introduction to sex appeal in movies as a kid.
Your dad reads like he would benefit from NetFlix DVD service.
I don't remember the Cinemart as particularly "artsy". I first went there with a friend from the Ridgewood YMCA in early 1969 to see a double feature of Robert Morse in "Where Were You When The Lights Went Out ?" (based on the Nov 9 1965 blackout) and Peter Ustinov in "Hot Millions". It was one screen then. I don't think I returned there until August 1976 when I saw "One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest" there. Still one screen. Then it was renovated, and I was next there to see "The Right Stuff" late April 1984, after walking out of "Terms of Endearment" at the Arion in Middle Village. That was my last time in the Arion before it closed, and became JamRon Drugs.
I like those "deep" flicks, too, like "The Piano" and "My Dinner With Andre". I think the Kew Gardens Multiplex at Austin and Lefferts is now "arty" or "foreign". It was formerly the Austin, pornographic, and, before that, first-run and single screen.
I've never much liked the Continental 1 and 2 (now Brandon) Cinemas on the south side of Austin, because they are so narrow and deep. To me, sitting in them is like being in a WW I pillbox and straining my neck to see the sky (screen). But I enjoyed "Runaway Train" there, because of the LIRR roaring and thudding by in front of me, and the
IND subway behind me ! Hey, we're back on topic !
I saw a few movies in the Continental 1/2. It was usually because the movie I wanted to see happened to be playing there, and my friends and I wanted an excuse to take the subway to a movie as opposed to walking to the neighborhood theater.
I kinda liked the one a bit down Queens Blvd (Trylon?). It's now closed. Speaking of "arsty" films, that one always had strange movies at it, but it was a nice "old fashioned" theater. I saw "A Stranger Among Us" there. I liked the Elmwood too, another nice old theater now closed. I saw "Back to the Future" there, among others.
I never saw a movie at Cinemart. I do agree, at least in the 80's, the movies there were always sort of "different".
Speaking of old theaters, have you ever seen a movie at the Ziegfeld in Manhattan? (50-something Street) Now THAT is a nice old fashioned theater. I saw a bunch of movies there, although it's been a while, the last one was "A Thin Red Line" a few years back.
I'm sorry the Elmwood closed also. I hope a new cinema is opened in Queens Center across from it on Queens Blvd. I think the first film I saw there was "Tron" in summer 1982. I also saw "Back To The Future" there in June 1985 when it first came out. The last movie my dad and I went to together, we saw there : "Star Trek IV", late February 1987.
The last movie I saw at the Elmwood before it closed was "Snake Eyes" in August 1998.
The first film I saw at the Ziegfeld in Manhattan (54th and 7th) was "Tommy" in March 1975. The sound was great there. I missed the quadrophonic presentation of "Ladies And Gentlemen The Rolling Stones" there in late April 1974. A friend who went said the speakers were out of sync timewise. I also went there to see the Langella "Dracula", "Apocalypse Now" (twice) "Born On the 4th of July" (Christmas Day 1989)and "The Doors" (early March 1991). The last two are Oliver Stone films, and the Ziegfeld is the perfect place to see his films, because Stone's way of making a point is to blow something up to billboard size and hit you over the head with it.
I also used to watch Wonderama, but only after Bob McAllister took over. I usually missed the beginning of each show because it would start at 8:00 on Sundays, and that's when I'd be in church.
http://www.christophergross.com/becker/becker.html
http://www.tvparty.com/lostbecker.html
http://www.amiannoyingornot.com/(5lujn245lbanxnqjfexl03ag)/view.aspx?id=8819
And for MORE of the stuff kids grew up on (threw up on?), the main page here is an interesting launching point. For that moment of "on topic" I suppose these are the people that twisted our wittle minds and made us foamers. :)
http://www.tvparty.com/lostkidsny.html
http://www.60sradio.com/sponsors.htm
He hosted The Three Stooges, weekday afternoons on channel 11.
This radio show, Ricky the K Solid Gold Time Machine is a recreation of WABC the way they sounded in 1966.
Ricky is from (East?) Orange, NJ. He lives in Garland, Texas.
You know there's no egg in an egg creme.
You know what a Lime Rikkey is (Brooklyn only?).
You know what a major lugie is.
You kow what a Spaldeen is.
You have no idea when a tourist asks you where is "downtown Manhattan".
#3 West End Jeff
The only place in the world where paying $1,000/month minimum for a 1-bedroom apartment in the Bronx or Brooklyn is considered a steal!!
Not noticing the smell of dried urine (anywhere).
We may also have this one in common with animal farmers. I grew up smelling it when I looked in the old phone boothes for dimes in the phones. I got so used to it, that I stopped noticing the smell.
and, in color for purists
Your pal,
Fred
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
If it's the trashtile, that's different. Actually, I'm rather surprised that the TA doesn't require contractors to buy up "used tires" and come up with "can you spare a squares" that is made from recycled tires - you'd have TRACTION that would IMPROVE when wet. It'd solve all the "customer experience" (injury) problems PLUS use up those used tires that are NOT finding their way into road asphalt where they'd be USEFUL ... and such a "no-slip" flooring could be left BLACK (which would look pretty spiffy against the yellow rubber line ["we're ALL bozos on this bus, honk honk"]) but if the CEILING got repainted in "anti-grafitti white" then the lights could REALLY be useful in their pointage.
STILL, I remember that station as a yesteryear "Chambers Street BMT" ... ANYTHING would be an improvement, even chalk outlines. :)
I think the renovation overall is ok, and I really appreciate the much improved lighting (I always prefer too bright to too dark), but the MTA has consistent problems with addressing leaks that make their newly renovated stations look awful within a few years.
I've waited for many a 7 train and the renovation clearly hasn't aged very well. You already have peeling paint, dust-covered signage, water damage and an elevator lucky enough to be operable at most 2 times a week.
Compare it all to the 4/5/6 and S platforms and you'll see how 7 riders got the royal screw job.
Absolutely. ANd for such an important station (the second busiest in the system), it amazes me that they did such a poor job on that one. The arched ceiling could have been a flood of interesting designs, anything from 168th St to the Washington Metro. It
s astonishing that with the use that station gets, they didn't even put in tiles. The millions of users have to llok at painted walls like someones badly finished basement.
I'm currently saving for a digital camera and as soon as I get one (probably by late Spring/early Summer), I'll be sure to make this station one of my first photo stops just to document all the ugliness.
You do realize it was built in the 80's, do you?
And what station wasn't built according to the 'status quo' at the time? Unless you have a time machine, you can't seem to stop all this. Oh, the horror.
% Lisa shows her father her science-fair project, a little homemade
% robot.
Lisa: Meet Linguo, the grammar robot. I built him all by
myself. If you misuse language, he'll correct you.
Homer: Well, let's put him to the test. [slowly] Me love beer.
Linguo: *I* love beer.
Homer: Aw, he loves beer. Here, little fellow. [pours a handy
can of beer in Linguo's mouth]
Lisa: Dad, no!
Linguo: [shorting out] Error.
Homer: I'm sorry. I thought he was a party robot.
Lisa: Ugh. This is why I can't have nice things. [growls,
takes Linguo and goes upstairs]
-- "Trilogy of Error"
The neighborhoods have absolutely nothing to do with it. The MTA does not determine what materials they will use by "the neighborhood". It is certainly true that the Archer stations were not done as well as the 63rd St stations. My guess is the materials that were used. The stations did open within a year of each other, however, both projects had been worked on for at least a decade before they opened. Maybe the Archer stations were finished a few years earlier than 63rd St and they used crappier materials, who knows, but it has NOTHING to do with neighborhood. There are many crappy stations in pristine neighborhoods, and very beautifully done renovations in more marginal neighborhoods.
Look at the Jamaica-Van Wyck station.
1998
2004
Notice how the daylight no longer comes through the windows into the station? People put grafitti on those windows, and caused them to be covered up, so now the daylight doesn't come into the station.
Now, I don't post this to dis the people of Jamaica (Queens), I post this this to illustrate the point that the MTA is giving the people of Jamaica a bad image due to the fact that they're keeping their stations the way they do. A few "bad Homers" are pouring kegs of beer into Linguo's mouth, and Lisa is doing very little to stop and fix it.
The leaky, corroded concrete vault has been an eyesore for as long as I can remember - and is apparently a flaw dating back to the original construction. They should have put the money into mounting a decorative fiberglass shell on the concrete instead of springing for that useless light sculpture. And those fans don't do a bit of good, either!
Your quixotic pal,
Fred
If so, what letter will be used along the L line for the Skip-Stop service.
There won't be need for any since CBTC is being tested on there.
Peace,
ANDEE
: (
The former. And to think our ancestors fought for American independence, fought to save the nation from breakup and to end slavery, defeated Germany in a world war, defeated Germany and Japan in another world war, and prevailed over Communism despite the threat of nuclear annihilation. And now we're piddling our panties over a ragged little band of towel heads.
Our brave ancetors must be spinning in their graves.
To be honest, we panicked over every little thing during both world wars. My father remembered a day in 1943 where a panic near Coney Island was caused by an object someone identified as a "Nazi U-boat".
If terrorism was REALLY a concern to our current "regime" then we'd at LEAST be handed "duck and cover materials" along with "spot the enemy posters" and perhaps what America needed *MOST* to COUNTER TERRORISM ... "ALL we have to FEAR is FEAR ITSELF" ... made an ordinary president into a PATRIOT ... we sure COULD use a politician TODAY who would go at least THAT far ... all we've got is this burning Shrub ... and the one thing the children of Israel learned was that talking, burning bushes were NOT a good thing. :)
IMAGINE an AMERICA though where our "leaders" didn't hide in a spiderhole ... whoops, make that a "secure, undisclosed location" to evade a subpoena over WHO we got sold out to for $2.29 a gallon ...
Dubya-dubya-eye-eye was a RIGHTEOUS war ... so far, all we've done is piss off the WORLD to get even for the OTHER BUSH ... Terrorism isn't the LEAST bit affected, those who died in the twin towers STILL haven't been properly avenged, but now we're killing more of our in Baghdad and we didn't get a PENNY drop in gas prices which is how we formerly JUSTIFIED these deaths. Semper FOO. :(
And as to "police state," sorry ... I've got to turn MYSELF in for posting this, scwoo you, ain't got time to turn YOU in too. :)
White House is dispensing more FEAR than Al Qaeda. :(
All those who died did so for the re-election effort. DOUBLE :( !
If an asteroid was bearing down on the Earth, with no doubt of a catastrophic impact, would you find SOME way to blame it on Bush?
http://neo.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news142.html
Now ... back to your question ... what ABOUT leadership? What *ABOUT* "ALL we have to FEAR is FEAR ITSELF?" (deafening silence?)
Let's be REAL here ... NEW YORK IS A TARGET! Back in the cold war days, the Russkies would have NEVER nuked NYC ... to leave it INTACT and nuke all AROUND it would have been a far bigger defeat for America than leaving it alone.
Terrorism (unlike MILITARY LOGIC) is ALL ABOUT scaring the QWAP out of people so that the panicked PEOPLE do all the destruction (the Russkie menatlity was leave NYC alone and the needs of its RESIDENTS while fighting a war would have taken out AMERICA - and they were RIGHT based on the logistics required for daily "resupply") ... as long as Americans are staining their pants, there's NO NEED for any "attacks" until we're not scared anymore. Had we NOT reacted the way we did (particularly WALL STREET!) then the destruction of WTC would have earned us our RESOLVE, GLOBAL RESPECT for our situation and a worldWIDE stoppage of all this nonsense.
Instead we got Shrub and his arrogance to the rest of the world (sympathy for NY? PHUCK you, you DESERVED IT! is the opinion of the planet after Iraq, INCLUDING our "coalition of the willing") at a time when the PROPER answer was "these bastards want us to be AFRAID ... we're AMERICANS, we ain't afraid of chit" ... instead we got code orange, adult diapers out the wazoo and our "LEADER" (Dick Cheney, does anyone REALLY believe Shrub "leads?") constantly in a "secure, undisclosed location" (one would THINK the "bring it on" types would have NOT been pussies and said, "bring it on, you wanna piece of ME?" and BE there for the confrontation). Only time Dickie pops up out of his spiderhole is for appearances at the "Freedom Foundation" and such.
Nope ... check out the ads ... "Re-Elect BUSH or you DIE" ... it's all about FEAR ... and this boy's NEVER shown America *ANY* alternative to FEAR ... nope - Bush *IS* Osama and OUTDOING OSAMA. :(
We all gonna *DIE!* Re-elect Shrub and you'll LIVE ... as long as you're not gay. :-\
#3 West End Jeff
Police investigation is the answer to your question.
IRT trains were bypassing in both directions. I'm not sure exactly what was happening on the IND, but it was clearly more serious, since there was a gap of at least 15 minutes between B trains on 6th Avenue (during which time two D's, two F's, and two V's came through).
Again, my main criticism is in the category of communication. The C/R on my (crowded) 1/9 didn't say anything about the problem until just after we had pulled out of 72, where we had connected with a (relatively empty) 3, which I'm sure many of us would have liked to take to an alternative transfer point, and the Dedicated Announcers for 34/6 didn't warn us about the long gap in Brooklyn-bound B service even though Brighton-bound passengers could have used the Q as an alternate. (All they told us was that A, B, C, D, and E trains were bypassing 59. Yes, E trains. The T/O on the second D did tell me that locals were being held at 59, but that's all he knew.)
I also wonder why DeKalb tower let a Q slip in front of our B even though the B was at least ten minutes late (or perhaps the previous interval never made it that far).
When I was going thru 59th on the A, I thought of you and how your commute was going to be screwed up. I assumed you'd take the 1/9 to Times Square for the Q.
This time I should have taken the 2/3 to Atlantic. If the C/R on the 1/9 had made her first announcement before connecting with an express at 72, I probably would have done just that.
After the Jewish holidays, you need to run the test I suggested by you using the B from 59/CC and I use the Q from Times Sqaure. Let's see who gets to Brighton Beach first.
Somebrah call MTV! I smell a mini-DV classic on the rails!!
I had no indication that IND service was having problems. The IRT was simply bypassing.
The test you proposed now is different from the test you proposed before. Pick a uniform starting point, or at least a starting street. The running time for the two runs you're suggesting now is the same; all depends on which one is scheduled to leave next.
There is a curveball working against me, I cannot switch from the Q to the B, even if we both meet at Church (unlikely), Newkirk, KH or Sheepshead Bay. I have to stay on as a local while you have the fast express.
I have strict routes when I do this. The B train I ride wouldn't reach 59th St. until well after 8 AM, when you're probably already at your final destination.
My first class is at 9:10. My timing varies, but I usually aim to catch the B at 59 around 7:40, give or take an interval.
Yes. Don't ask me to explain. I'm just funny like that. At 7:40, I'm in the Bronx.
Obviously, DeKalb isn't controlled by the Q Superintendent.
I crossed over to the northbound side and took a B train to 161st to get the #4.
Erf? T/Os on the E don't have to, and shouldn't be, changing channels.
I was on the 6:43 D Stillwell. At 50th St the announcement was that all n/b and s/b trains would bypass 59th St. After we went through 59th st. the NYPD brass requested that all trains be stopped from passing through the station. By the time I reached 125th St, they were preparing to turn trains. As I left 145th St, the orders again changed and trains were again being permitted to bypass 59th St. When i got to 161 St, control center was advising all crews that normal service has been restored. "Let's get back on schedule!" Throughout the entire chaotic incident control and 59 master were trying to keep track of train locations and still move people thebest way they could. Again, I remind you, the police controlled the scene.
Huh? What are you talking about? That can already be done with the current configuration. Hell, the northbound track IS the middle track at Essex.
Early '70s rollsigns:
Late 1970's rollsigns:
More late 1970's and one 1980's rollsigns:
For you younger folks, these signs had stripmaps which appeared on the inside of the cars.
Hey Chris:
Would you happen to be talking about these?
As you can see they are far from finished, but you get the idea. I wasn't going to post them yet, but since the subject came up-what the hell?
What do you think?
You are right about the "AA" sign. Those were the original style of the R40s, R42s and R44s.
I recall B & W stripmaps on R42's in 1985-86. Then again, my memory doesn't have a strong track record for accuracy.
So the 168th St. QJ Coney Island rollsign was used on the R42's.
=)
Example:
(A) 207 STREET-MANHATTAN
8 AV EXPRESS
Of course. Thanks Flat.
If they really wanted to invest money on new signs [NOW], they could replace the LCD with LED signs showing the bullets and the line displays would be corresponding to the bullet color.
Different color LED's are really expensive to generate which is why all of the 'Millenium' cars only have RED front LED's. I think this idea is just wishful thinking for the most part, unfortunately.
If there is enough room it could be a two line display showing the destination and the trunk line it runs on but I'll show an example with one line.
Example:
(A) 207 STREET-MANHATTAN
8 AV EXPRESS
Not at a bad idea, but still no dice. :(
As for my reaffirmation in these current digital depressants:
D to Brighton Beach!!!!!!
Regards,
< J >immy
DUH!
And we have 170, 176, and 183 to go yet. Eventually, ALL 4 line stations from 167 to Woodlawn will be renovated (Chris R., this includes Bedford Park too!). Additionally, Woodlawn and Fordham Road are getting ADA elevators too.
Philadelphia Express, Jersey Central Railway Way to interesting
Railfan window? With people running in front of train
And for you New Yorkers, Here's the train on the EL
"From Edison films catalog: Taken from the front platform of a special train run backward over the celebrated S curve. Not only are the passing trains and crowded platforms of great interest, but the view of up-town New York is an excellent one, showing acre upon acre of roofs, towers, steeples and towering apartment houses. As the "special" slows up at 92nd Street, a Harlem express dashes by, the engineer leaning out of his cab, and waving a good-bye. 150 feet. 22.50."
More of edison's films
Heh, the last video is just as great as that 3rd Avenue El clip videotaped in the 50's... All amazing...
This one has some comedy to it I like it.
There's a bunch of other very good ones. Found one that was a freight train coming out of the tunnel. There is 2 steam locos in the front and 1 in the back, and a few of the boxcars have men standing on the roofs as the train goes by. Brakemen I guess.
They're all so interesting.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"Following Japan, France, Germany and Spain, we have become the fifth country to run a high-speed train," Acting President Goh Kun told crowds at the revamped Seoul Station in the centre of the South Korean capital.
Ha ha, take THAT Amtrak!
Click here for an article and more photos.
---Sir Ronald of McDonald
I didn't know that the Maglev in China was shut down.
12:40 Uptown C train arrives on Uptown Local Track
12:40 Uptown B train arrives on Uptown Express Track
Tower tells the C train C/R that the B will be departing first local, C/R tells people on the C that the B will be leaving first. People leave the C and board the B train.
12:42, without warning the C Train closes up and leaves local, B train is still on uptown express track. The C/R is confused and the people are pissed.
12:43 Tower Makes Public Annoucement that the B train on the Uptown Express track will be going express to 145 Street.
People are furious, and they start screaming at the B train C/R (poor guy) as if it was his fault. He starts explaining that the tower is at fault. (HA!) An MTA employee (a T.S.S. or Supervisior of some sort) then gets the fury as the people explain what the C/R of the C train said.
59 Street Master Tower ... Going the Opposite Way...
(No kidding, this is not a typo on the next to last word in my post.)
David
Right professions for the right names ( you can use that)
(4) WoodlawnBowlingGreen
Talk about names, eh?
Elias
Your complaints mean little unless they hit a bullseye and then people hang for stupid stuff. That is also true for internal complaints too. They say it is only funny until someone loses an eye and that is true. What they don[t tell you is at that point they beat you up, keel haul you, decapitate, shoo and then hang you not in that order.
As for the R they changed the drop out to pacific last pick or earlier to end that problem. You get to run express for a stop sometimes 2 with a GO and when you boot everyone off there should have been enough time to get them on the train behind you.
As for the road the ATD are too scared to give skips even during the day and the road is so behind that there are no trains or crews on the other end. QP and Roosevelt are the biggest chickens of all in this. There could be 10 trains behind you and they will not give a skip.
I propose that the personnel at 59th St. and Murphy square off in an all-day "Duuuhhhhfest" to prove once and for all which tower has the lower overall general I.Q.
One of the characters in "Alice in Wonderland" continually screamed,"Off with their heads!". Your statement reminds me of that character. Do you really think that someone announcing that the wrong train will be leaving first is grounds for firing? What do you do with an Air Traffic Controller who errs and causes a near miss on the ground? Kill his entire family? Why don't we execute Martha Stewart? For cryin out loud, they may be TA employees but they are also human beings. Perhaps the error warrants some punishment - maybe like getting smacked in the head with a wiffle ball bat but don't you think firing is a little extreme?
Besides, The tower may have intended to do one thing, but then was told to do something different.
Could be the (C) *was* supposed to go first but the T/O was out taking a pee, so they sent the (B).
Sheesh...
Elias
Eeeesh!!
Criticism of 1's workplace won't get you any favors, vato...
Ya know, he bitches about so much what goes on down here, yet he wants to be a C/R. I guess he feels he's better than anyone else down there and will be a model employee.
As long as I do my job right, and as long as my train is on time. My train won't always be on time if the railroad blows up, it happens. But if my train is late because some stupid tower letting their late train come through and put my train behind. They do the stupidest holdings. An on time D train enters 145 and gets holding lights, 40 seconds later an A train comes in, closes up and leaves, and the D crawls behind that A for the remainder of the trip up to 59. I don't feel above, hell, I'm complaining like any other passenger does.
If you forgot, let me put it to you, we live in New York City...a minute means something, a difference of 1 minute means connecting to a bus, getting to another train, getting to work on time, or early. I know you may not give a flying ****, hell if you work for that tower, you must not.
That delay was defintitly out of proportion and just wrong, and the C/R was basically placed with a noose while angry customers basically cursed at him and blamed him. It's not the last time 59 Tower would pull off a stunt like that. But as a customer, who rides this and deals with this daily, for the last 12 years, I'll call them out on every major slip up, until they get so tired of me and other customers complaining, they'll fix themselves.
P.S. if I do my job, and follow the rules, and my train is constantly on time, I'm just doing my job. That's not being a model employee. I wont concider myself higher than anyone else. But don't say I have no right to say that 59 Tower is a terribly operated tower. If you don't like it, too bad.
The tower ain't gonna let it leave early even if you stand on your head and wiggle your ears.
: ) Elias
No, fortunately I do not work there. I have been there, and I will keep my mouth shut on that matter.
However, I was just pointing out how you want to be a C/R, but you're just always pointing out "these guys are stupid" and the like. You'll see, you have to follow orders, whether they make sense or not.
> But if my train is late because some stupid tower letting their late train come through and put my train behind. They do the stupidest holdings.
This is a debatable issue. Many towers like to keep trains in order. Its wrong, but if that's what the supervision wants...
And from now on say "dispatcher at 59th MT" and I'll be happier. Us hourlies have to follow instructions, and unfortunately we get the bad rap from customers and yourself for doing what we're told. Give credit where credit's due and I'll retract my statement. :)
That's why you NEVER make the announcement "The train across the platform will be the first train to leave," because you don't know what's going on (unless you were told). The reason I never did that is it would just delay me further: now everyone's running across the platform grabbing doors (assuming my train would not be held longer because we were ahead of schedule). By not making the announcement, the other train got moving sooner and so did my train.
Before anyone says I inconvenienced passengers by doing so, if you consider 60-90 seconds a major inconvenience, I feel bad for you.
The original plan may have been to put the B on the local and give it a run (there are reasons for doing this), then the T/D decided to just run the train up the express. Of course he's still at fault for not communicating with crews and giving passengers timely information. And the C/R got it in the end, which sucks.
Those are a couple of good points. Better not to say anything at all than to spout nonsense. I guess anything that reduces unnecessary transfers is worthwhile too. I have to confess that I get annoyed though when I try to pick the next train and I guess wrong; sometimes I'm running late and that extra minute or two makes a big difference. And just like with the trains themselves, individuals who miss connections begin to sustain accumulated delays over the course of their trips. Miss connection "A" and it might cause a cascade that means ten or fifteen minutes in the end. I'll never forget the trip from 77 St on the 6 to Union Tpke. I just missed the 6; then I just missed the R; then I just missed an E. After an hour or so, I got back to Kew Gardens at 10:05 PM-- five minutes too late to get my car from the municipal parking garage there. I had to take the LIRR home and send my parents for the car the next day. Pain, pain, pain.
Leave plenty of time when you ride public transit,
Especially at Night!
Elias
The A was probably scheduled to be in front of the D.
Perhaps it was a bit late, or perhaps your watch was wrong and the D was actually a bit early. In either case, passengers on the A miss out on the opportunity they're scheduled to have to transfer to the D. In the latter case, passengers boarding or transferring at stations down the line miss the train should have caught and have to wait for the next one. The D has three more merges -- with the B at 59, the N and Gold, and the M at 36 -- and if it's running hot, it's sure to have to wait at one of those places anyway.
I don't feel above, hell, I'm complaining like any other passenger does.
That's the problem. You're not the average passenger. The average passenger only knows that he's being delayed but doesn't understand anything about the system. You do understand that the D train is one piece of a broader subway system and that it has to work with the rest of the system. So why do you reduce yourself to whining that your train was held? You know better.
(I certainly contribute more than my share of complaints to SubTalk, but compare my complaints in 2001 to my complaints now that I have a better understanding of how the subway system works.)
If you forgot, let me put it to you, we live in New York City...a minute means something, a difference of 1 minute means connecting to a bus, getting to another train, getting to work on time, or early.
...or it could mean waiting an extra minute for that bus, waiting an extra minute for that train, or getting to work a minute earlier than you wanted.
And what about the 10 minutes lost by anyone trying to transfer from the A to the D or anyone trying to catch the D according to the schedule further down the line, only to find it pulling out two minutes early? Two weeks ago I lost 40 minutes because a B train was running a few minutes hot. You don't think those 40 minutes meant something to me?
If you're in such a rush and you see that you're being held for an A, why don't you run upstairs and catch it?
And this means what? I personally think many NYC residents are spoiled with the level of service when 1 minute is a big deal (except during the late evening and night hours, or on the outskirts of the city when surface transit is garbage compared to that of Manhattan, then it very well may be a big deal).
Go to another city where transit isn't what it is here. I lived in Rochester for a few months and it was toture trying to get around using "mass transit". After 8:30 forget about going anywhere or getting back to campus without a cab.
Be grateful for what you have, even if it seems to suck.
That's the problem with having the towers (which control entire areas) report to Line Superintendents.
The 59th Street Tower reports to the A Line Superintendent, so the people who staff the tower are loyal only to the A (and, of course, their superintendent's on-time performance stats). Nothing else matters.
For as long as I was on the E on Saturday morning (pretty much half a day), before I went back to the Q and saw the BIE, there were no announcements at Rooosevelt or Queens Plaza about the G not running. There G was not among the lines listed in the weekend poster, not on the MTA Service Advisories for that weekend. Queens Plaza is controlled by Queensboro Plaza Master and there should've been a dedicated announcer informing G line customers about taking the E to 23/Ely for the G shuttle. Also the G is cut back to Court Square if the E/F run local or the R is express anywhere between QP and 71/FH, or the N is diverted to Queens Plaza (No more than a certain tph is allowed on each track during a G.O. is in effect. I think it's 21 tph, but I'm not sure.).
But the E, F, and R were all running normal from Queens Plaza or 21st Queensbridge to 71st Ave/Forest Hills, and the G could've went to 71/FH on regular but that was not the case. So what made the G be GO'd in the first place?
or cars like at the haunted house
Truth is I think they are very short of T/O and don't want to pay too much OT.
They have been filing all the open jobs with reclassed G and C crews.
When the G shortlines on that GO they cancel many of the jobs and those T/O get reassigned. You work an open job elsewhere and they pay only an hour of OT instead of 8.
BTW: All of the underground sections of the Tube have phones. If you look out of the window, you will see two wires at cab height, approximately 6 inches apart. If you short them, you remove power from the rails. If you clip a handset to them, you are in telephone communication with some control center. I think this is a simple, reliable system which probably will work better than any radio, no matter what they do!
Granted, since it always seems to be "terrorist" season, security is tightened everywhere. But when the alerts calm down, the explorers come out. . . or maybe even when the alerts are still high. Anyway, I've heard stories on the Mole People, read Jeniffer Toth's book, etc. etc. I've only run into people along that amtrak line btwn 10th and 11th ave's, west side manhattan. I've heard stories also about the F train in Brooklyn, being home to MANY "communities" where the train travels underground. If ANYONE has 411 on ANY REAL info, please contact me at: "quest@questbeats.com" with the 411.
To all my fellow urban explorers out there, be safe, be alert, and share the wealth! Be blessed.
~Quest~
For what I think would be obvious reasons you won't get that information from anyone here (if anyone does know - I certainly don't).
Sorry, Osama. Try another city.
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=680933
He struck me much more as the misguided adventurer and potential Darwin Award candidate type rather than the Al-Qaeda wannabe type. If you want to plant a bomb, you don't want the obscure passageways that you crawl into with a backpack full of stuff. Either you want the places you can drive a truck into so you can do huge physical damage, or you want the places full of people.
How does $100 per hour or part thereof sound?
Terrorist nonsense? I worked 1 block away from the Trade Center and was at my desk when the first plane hit. I saw the buildings collapse. Doesn't seem like nonsense to me.
http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/abandoned/mole-people.html
(4) WoodlawnBowlingGreen
Besides, there aren't as many levels down there as he indicated... I don't know the exact number but it's about half of what he posted.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Once again,
(4) WoodlawnBowlingGreen
This is NOT so.
The WHOLE INTERNET IS MONITORED!
Every single router that handles your request makes a log of it.
Our network route logs evere request to the internet: What computer asked to connect to what server at what date and time.
ALL OF THAT IS LOGGED!
Nobody generally looks at those logs until somebody asks.
Our local internet provider as a special number for law enforcement to use to make such requests! It is posted right on their website! And the ISP will not bother asking for a warrant. They consider the logs to be public information! (Other ISPs will treat their logs differently: European ISPs generally destroy the logs after a few weeks) Virgina Law requires network operators (such as myself) to report improper material that comes to their attention (ie kiddie porn / bomb threats etc.) [You *do* know that AOL is in Virginia, don't you!] You do want to understand the ramifications of the Sarbanes-Oxley act. Ain't no business logs ever going to disapear!
Elias
I'd be interested in seeing those photos too. I'll also email you.
Trespassing is not a serious crime. I certainly don't mean to imply that people should feel free to wander into closed-off areas, far from it, but the consequences of getting caught are hardly serious.
Trespassing under *certain* circumstances CAN be a very serious crime. If anyone's caught, say 100 feet or more deep, in a subway, or RR tunnel leading to a bridge or under-the-river route right now; they'd better be answering nature's call.
Such behavoir might seem very suspicious given all this paranoia crap, but what could the person be charged with? As far as I know, there's no crime of "aggravated trespassing."
That tunnel begins at 76th Street. What little as can be seen of it looks like a blank wall at the abandoned station. From there it drops down fairly quickly, but there never were any tracks in that tunnel: it was uspposed to be for utilities, and at one time a water tunnel was planned for that route, but never built. The tunnel ends abruptly at 42nd Street. There are some electrical cables leading down there, but there is no working lighting, and hasn't been for 50 years. There are several large switch cases there, but no transformers or switch gear was ever installed here. I'd not even think of going down there again, for it is well guarded by a Resident MONSTER!
: ) Elias
-Chris
I really don't know. It was forwarded to somebody here at the Abbey as an e-mail, and he thought that I would like to see it. After DefJef started to post, I added the words "Don't Feed the Troll" to it, and he seems to escape from his hiding place on my server from time to time.
Elias
Or is this just an ND wildlife pic?
No, actually that is a picture taken in Canada, by a lady friend who is a lineman for the telephone company. Imagine going out to work on telco pedastals in this kind of weather and worse all winter long.
: ) Elias
For now,
(4) WoodlawnBowlingGreen
Anyone care to vote on which train gets to York University? Will it be the Sheppard Line or the Spadina Line???
The only "mistake" they ever made was to build the extension from Kennedy as the "RT" line with small cars like a 2-rail version of a monorail line. It is so popular that many morning busses that normally would go to the first stop on that line instead express it to the first stop on the Danforth Subway (Kennedy) to cut back on RT congestion. Unbelieveable!!
A 1/2 liter of Molsson all around, eh! Let me take my toque off first. Anyone want a Tim Horton Doughnut? Let's see what's on Rogers Cablevision tonight.
Any1 live in Toronto? Interested team up with me and do a big tour and show me around and stuff like that, so I wont be lost at all! lol
TTC has the best transit system, evenually they run 15 min or better overnights!!
I AM CANADIAN (one of the early posters said a half litre of molson)
not to say i dislike NY,
(4) WoodlawnBowlingGreen
P.S. HUUUUUUGE mistake building the kennedy RT, what were those guys drinkin'?
A person that can't remember BT hosts,
(4) WoodlawnBowlingGreen
If the Kennedy–Scarborough LRT gets so crowded, I would call it a success! Why don't they run more trains?
They didn't order enough cars to begin with and the yard at McCowan is a small temporary yard. A new yard was to be constructed elsewhere when the line was supposed to be extended, with the running tracks sent through where the yard is now. But since no extension was ever built, the original yard remains and no more cars were ordered.
The only thing that could be done is to run everything and then cycle them out for maintainance outside of the rush hours but that probably be impractical.
-Robert King
For good donuts, Click here
For good chicken and ribs, Click here
For good pizza, Click Here
This year is also the 50th anniversary of the founding of the Ontario Electric Railway Association, so the museum will be celebrating all summer.
You might even be there on a day when I'm operating. 8-)
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
-Robert King
proudly defending the TTC
(4) WoodlawnBowlingGreen
Cover pic is of 2nd Ave Deli (11th St) with an R32 trainset at the curb. Inside is similar scene with an R44 (painted belly band.) Ironic, as the crux of the article is that Speaker Silver is going to greenlight the project, though phase 1 will not include lower Manhattan.
If the real estate brokers are right, if Bloomberg willing to dedicate future property tax increases on the East Side to the subway, the way he is willing to dedicate future property taxes on the West Side to the Flushing Line, the SAS could be financed no problem. Add in the state taxes those people pay (for which they get nothing) and you are golden.
I do think they are starting in the right place, building the most usable segment operationally first. And it's good they plan to put the TBM in at 96th. Even if they don't get funding for Phase II right away, they could just use a little bit of money to keep the TBM moving south toward Houston, taking the spoils out by worktrain through the 63rd Street tunnel. If New York can get the hole, it will eventually get the subway.
What would be essential is some way of binding the city to use the future property tax revenue increases only for the SAS. It should be legally impossible to divert the funds to any other purpose regardless of the circumstances. Otherwise, you're likely to have another Beame Shuffle.
I'd be happier with 125th.
In any event, after all these years it will soon be crunch time for you and me. After the disasterous financing of the 2000-04 MTA capital plan, and the decision to put East Side Access first, I believed the SAS was "undead" (they'll never officially cancel or even defer it, they'll just play us along). You thing our state politicians are saints and heros who are doing the right thing and know all. So one of us will have the last laugh.
Except that if we even get the upper half of the SAS I'll be laughing too, with joy. And it is unlikely that any defeat will shake your pollyanna view. Well, we'll find out, but it will take some time. Who knows when the feds will re-pass a new transporation bill, and the state will adopt a new capital plan?
That's the eventual plan. The most important part is to get the section from 63rd to 96th built, as this small section by itself will relieve Lexington Ave congestion noticably.
So will the part north, even though ridership levels at those stations on the Lex is lower. My guess is that lots of people from the BX work in some capacity in the hospitals/university on the far east side. Lots of those people might get off and take a line that gets them closer to work. You might get some Dr.s and Profs transferring from Metro North at 125th and going down too.
PS. I think a MN connection at 125 would be great, but so would a right turn to LGA.
Click here for more info.
What I've always wondered is, what does a tunnel that's many hundreds of feet underground leak into?
Cruel irony. They are spending billions on #3 because they are worried about #1 and #2, which come down from the main receiving resevior at Kensico.
Meanwhile, one of the aquaducts that feeds the receiving resevoir is leaking big time, and may be in serious danger. NYC may have to shut it down and work like mad to repair it, meaning a severe water famine for months. I read that they are investigating the situation, but I never read a follow up with the results of the investigation.
The SAS will NOT be built.
www.forgotten-ny.com
From that phone number this week I get a recording that it is the New York Times Education Dept. What is wrong with this picture ?
My $$$ is on 207th St.
Because, you turkey, the "major" lines as you call them, all *have* new cars in the 44s, 46s, and 62s... all are 75' cars that cannot operate on the Eastern Division. All 143 class cars and up will be 60' cars.
Furthermore, the (L) train got the 143s because it is a 'captive' lion, with no other lines merging on or off of it, and is to be used, therefore, as a test bed for computerized train control.
The (L) will soon be 100% R143s, and the (J) (M) and (Z) will be all 160s. The 160s will be delivered in two basic configureations: 4 car sets (to make 8 car trains) and 5 car sets (to make 10 car trains). The four car sets will be delivered first. Later the five car sets will begin to arrive.
The "Major" lions as you call them cannot use 8 car trains, and the Eastern lions cannot use 10 car trains.
That is that.
Elias
Elias:
Lest someone call you a turkey, CBTC is Communication Based train Control, not computerized.
68s.... : ) Either way, they ain't going to the Eastern Division!
I'm dyslexic with numbers. You should see me trying to find the right hymns in church!
Elias
Your pal,
Fred
I don't get it.
Gobble, Gobble, Gobble! : )
You can do that on the steps of the public library! : )
http://pbskids.org/lions/
Not true. They will be arriving at the same time. Kawasaki will be building the 5 car units and Alstom the 4 car units until late in the program when they'll do some 5 car sets.
I thought Alstom woud be building them all, with tech suport from Kawasaki to assure mechanical and computer compatibility with the R143?
That's how I read the contract.
What? It's not like anything else anyone says has any more validity!
David
A) Is established by NYCT, not by SubTalkers
B) Is subject to change by NYCT at any time, even after retirements have begun.
David
Except the R-9s
Except the R-10s
Except the R-16s
Note: the following image is not specifically meant for the author of the post I am replying to, but this looked like a good place to post it since the R-160 topic comes up so often :)
A picture of a smiling apple saying "Guess what? No one gives a shit!"
A picture of a duck hunting the hunter using a fake wooden standup of a naked woman as bait
A picture of a mentally "handicapped" person on a running track with the caption "Arguing on the internet is like running in the special olympics, even if you win, you're still retarded"
A picture of an Albino Gorilla (at least thats what I think it is)
making a smile with giant letters saying "LOL"
I would post them, but you subtalkers have told me in several HTML lessons that images with the img src code must begin with http, and I don't think My Pictures file begins with HTTP, I've tried and failed, so if there is a way to post them from your My Pictures folder, please let me know so I don't have to do more vague descriptions
Once again,
(4) WoodlawnBowlingGreen
Somebody sent me the picture of the Troll, and I added the text using PhotoShop. The photo is on my server, and is called "Troll.jpg"
HTTP:// is not part of the file name, it is the name of a protocol: HyperText Transfer Protocol. There are others such as FTP:// which is File Transfer Protocol. So that part of the file name is telling your own computer what sort of a file you are looking for, and what to do with it when you get it.
The next part of the file name is the URL proper, such as talk.nycsubway.org The .org is the main root of the file name. teading from right to left you have ".nycsubway" which is Dave's domain name, and "talk" which is the particular server (sub domain, acutally, usually a server however for our purposes)
After (to the right of) the .org is a slash and then the name of the folders and files that are being requested.
So look at is as if it were your postal address. It might look like this:
Postal://118Broadway.Brooklyn.nyc/Apartment7/Green/picture.jpg
or to get the troll from my server you might try:
Http://test.assumptionabbey.com/Photos/Troll.jpg
See: the Filename is "Troll.jpg"
The: place where that file is is in a folder named "Photos"
on a server named "test" at "assumptionabbey.com", and the HTTP:// tells your browser that it is a Hypertext Transfer Protocol.
Since most domain names, such as "assumptionabbey.com" have many things that are running on them, www. used to be used to designate your WebServer at that location. Mostly we havent been bothering with those letters anymore, but they, of course still work. Some servers still do require them.
Now our domain name "assumptionabbey.com" has the webserver located in one place (our internet provider hosts our website) and our MX (mail exchange) server in yet another place. Our in house computer network uses the same root domain name, but with a different sub-domain name. The .test name was set up by our ISP to point to a small computer that I use to test things on.
In any event, any file in the world can be accessed through this URL naming system, frequently with more than one valid address. After all, you can receive mail at your home address, or at your post office box. Both addresses will get mail to you.
As for HOW we get such nice pictures: when we see one on the internet that we would like to steal, you right click on it, select "Save File As:" and save it to your computer somewhere.
For many of the things that I post, subway maps and graphics in particular, I make them myself using such applications or programs as may be required to do the work.
To post them for others to see, you do have to have a web server somewhere, so that you can put the photos there, and then reference them using html code in your posts.
: ) Elias
If you want, Ill post others, in the preview it was a box with multicolored simple shapes, so I assume, that I've done right, considering that the last time it was a red x.
The HTML novice,
(4) WoodlawnBowlingGreen
Fustrated,
(4) WoodlawnBowlingGreen
Elias
oh, so you can't post pix files that are on the HD
(4) WoodlawnBowlingGreen
Those files are on your personal computer. They have to instead be on a WEB SERVER in order for us to view them online. You can possibly run a web server off of your own machine, but that is for you to look into. I don't understand why you don't make use of one of the many free photo hosting services that are mentioned here on an almost daily basis...
Yes, you *can* run your own web server at home if you are using WinXP. It is not loaded by default, but you can load it to your computer if you know how.
But... since you are not that far along in your techicnal skills, I would STRONGLY Recommend AGAINST Trying it! It becomes a major seceurity issue for your computer.
But to do it, you need the following:
1) IIS server (a part of you WinXP or Win2K operating system)
2) A 27/7 internet connection
3) With a STATIC IP number
4) With an Internet Service Provider who permits the operation of Servers.
My Static IP Number costs $10.00 a month. (we run our own MX server and I use the IIS server for testing and playing with things.)
A Complete Website with 750 MB of storage, 300 POP3 email addresses is only $9.95/mo with Webmasters.com
(Even that does not absolve you from knowing what you are doing.!)
(Or like they said, use one of the free photo hosting services!)
Elias
That's what I think it would happen. From what the MTA does it likes to start a Chain Reaction when moving in new cars. Like the R-142a orders going to the 6 first. So what ever starts the best chain reaction for moving and shifting cars around the various yards the MTA will send the R-160's there.
Elias
Something *will* be scrapped. Has to be!
R38s and R40s out the door first, followed by the R42s
After that we will see what the 32 and 44 looklike.
I would not be surprized if the 44s go first, but maybe not.
Elias
No. There is no way that 660 cars will arrive on the property and replace nothning.
The R160s will likely NOT be assigned to
240-Van Courtland
239-Wakefeild
E180-Unionport
Westchester
Livonia
Lenox
Jerome
Hillside
Corona
Croton Harmon
Babylon
Ronkonkoma
Sunnyside
West Side
SBK/NYCHRR
Stamford
New Haven
Bear MD
Hialeah FL
Beech Grove IN
Evanston
Journal Square
Harrison
Holban
69th st
Luzerne
Fontenay
Saint Ouen
Choisey
129th st
99th st
155th st
Sheesh!
IRT and therefore too wide
-
240-Van Courtland
239-Wakefeild
E180-Unionport
Westchester
Livonia
Lenox
Jerome
Corona
LIRR/MNCR/AMTK
Hillside
Croton Harmon
Babylon
Ronkonkoma
Sunnyside
West Side
Stamford
New Haven
Bear MD
Hialeah FL
Beech Grove IN
Holban
Scrap/freightyard
SBK/NYCHRR
CTA
Evanston
Path
Journal Square
Harrison
Philly
69th st
Luzerne
Paris
Fontenay
Saint Ouen
Choisey
Manhattan Elevated
129th st
99th st
155th st
There not even here yet. No one knows, theres no official roster, nor is there any bs or rumored roster. Wait until they get here, then ask.
Depending on how you define "get here," what makes you think we will know anything more then than we do now? How about we not speculate, and instead just wait for known MTA employee SubTalkers to post the truth when they are good and ready?
I assume by then, a official MTA employee will give what they know about where the R160's may be assigned to, or what theyre willing to tell to the public. Frankly I dont care anyway.
#3 West End Jeff
David
They probably won't replace the R-143's either, but I say that with a slightly lesser degree of certainty.
But I could be wrong. Anybody disagree?
#3 West End Jeff
Because... Then we would have nothing to talk about!
Sheesh!
Acela
Acela
But first I'm going to backtrack a bit and write about what I heard was going to happen. Rumour coming from within the TTC had the special train carrying a board on the front with the details of the anniversary like the board on the front of the first train fifty years ago today as well as the 25th anniversary train in 1979. The rumours also said that the train would be composed of three T1 units carrying the recycled numbers of three of the four G1 units in the first train in 1954; so 5000-5001 and 5098-5099 and another would have been put together in a train and brought over to Davisville or Wilson for the event and then sent back to the Bloor Danforth line after. The destination signs were to have been set for Union (southbound end) and Eglinton (northbound end) and the run number on the lead car was supposed to be 01. Personally, I thought the south end of the train should have been set for run 54 with the north end showing 04 for the years involved. Emails suggesting all of this just to make sure that this was all done properly were sent by a friend of mine to internal contacts in the TTC.
Skip forward to this morning. I walked down to Eglinton station and went down to the subway platform at about 10:15. The regular users of the station must have been having a hard time because the platform was stuffed with people wanting to get on the historic train (such as it was; the TTC doesn't have any historic trains unless you want to include the rail grainders). It was so croweded that the subway trains had to be inched in and out of the station. I got on a train and rode down to Rosedale where I got off and walked around to the bridge just a bit south of the station where Rosedale Valley Rd. passes over the subway tracks and got ready to photograph the historic train. I chose this particular location because I wanted to get a good view of the historic train stopped in a station because it was a dark, cloudy and rainy day which with Kodachrome 64 dictated a slow shutter speed that would have made a sharp moving shot impossible without severe underexposure.
On the way down, I noticed a heavy security presence on all of the southbound platforms at Eglinton, Davisville, St. Clair, Summerhill and Rosedale when I got off. At Summerhill a team of about four or five people composed of a TTC supervisor, police officers and transit security were keeping a watchful eye on the single passenger waiting to go southbound.
It was there that I was soon joined by a person I know who works for the TTC who had been listening to a radio scanner when a 'level 1' incident occurred. Apparantly, a male subject in his 60s had been observed sitting on a bench in the station for 15 minutes without getting on a train. After security had finished interrogating him, it apparantly had been determined that he'd been there on March 30th, 1954 for the subway's opening and had come back to see the historic train and take a ride, and was waiting for it to pull into the station.
Then, to my dismay, I heard that my friend had observed things at Davisville before heading down to Rosedale and that the train of T1s was just a bunch of ordinary T1s that had been put together into a train and had the commemorative board attached to the front. Nobody had even thought to sign the train for Union! Union and Eglinton are both on the rollsigns in all of the trains so there's no excuse, really. I got pictures of this train at Rosedale. Mike Filey and a TTC streetcar driver I'm acquainted with apparantly ran down to the buildup platform at Davisville and got them to crank up Union and Eglinton on the dignitaries' train before it left, but I didn't get a picture of that one at Rosedale, unfortunately. Really, how hard would it have been to let the people know at Greenwood to hold 5000-5001, 5098-5099 and one of the two other appropriately numbered T1 units and send them over to the Yonge line for the event to make up the historic train? And not cranking the signs on the cars they did use to Eglinton and Union was just bizzare, considering that they're on the rollsigns.
I got back on the the subway, cold and wet, and rode down to Union Station where I bumped into a few more friends on the subway platform and we all headed over to the railway station where the party took place. After all the speeches, the cake was served. I was asking everone who I knew that I bumped into if they'd seen the Gloucster models anywhere among the displays set up in the station. The model I'm referring to is the beautiful models of a two car Gloucster unit which the Gloucster Railway Carriage and Wagon Works had commissioned Bassett & Lowke in England to build, for presentation to the TTC near the end of the delivery of their first order from Gloucster. Unfortunately, I don't think the model Gloucsters were on display because I didn't see them anywhere and I took a look at pretty much everything that had been put out. Nobody I spoke with had seen them either. The one and only time I've seen them was just over 10 years ago at the Market Gallery where they were part of an exhibit called Bright Lights, Big City which documented the history of electricity in Toronto, and to a lesser extent, in Ontario, including the opening of the electrically powered subway.
On the whole, the event was very good. I don't want to sound too critical because the event was good, but... In some places, I think the security was a bit over the top, for better or worse; in some places like Eglinton and Union, it was plainly obvious that it was needed for crowd control because of the large number of people on the subway platforms with trains going by. But Summerhill and Rosedale? These stations are never busy, even if there has been a delay on the line.
Regarding the historic subway train, everyone I spoke with was in agreement in that we all thought they should have put the effort in to bring the T1s carrying the appropriate fleet numbers from Greenwood over to the Yonge line for the event. We were all astounded that the destination signs weren't set for Union and Eglinton on the public's historic train, and that it was only done on the train carring the dignitaries after Mike Filey prodded them. I really wish they'd paid the required attention to get these historic details right for an event of this importance. I didn't ask anybody else what their feelings were, but I was disappointed that the Gloucster models weren't on display. And I'm sure everybody would agree with me that it's a shame that the TTC didn't save a historic train of Gloucsters for events like this when they were retired back in 1990.
I'll scan the slides in when they come back and post them.
-Robert King
A proud TTC railfanner
(4) WoodlawnBowlingGreen
P.S. my name doesn't show it, besides, that is my favourite strech of track, next to the Brighton line.
The El tracks were moved to the north side of the bridge in 1929. The continued operating there until 1942. There is a 4% deflection of the bridge to the north side as a result of this load imbalance.
Heh, it seems all that other data is part of the image. You get some cool statistics there.
Courtesy of NYCRoads
--Mark
Regards,
Jimmy
http://palter.org/~brotzman/03-18-04_ACMU_TRIP/Thumbnails.html
And the tower pics are in the old style at the top of the page at.
http://palter.org/~brotzman/Towers/?M=D
Here are some hi-lites.
The star of our trip, the ACMU 1100
With a wonderful 60's interrior. Also note how the side doors are left open and the gap between cars.
Check it out, I got some actual Subway pics like this D train at Stillwell
And this Q train on the Brighton at Prospect Parque
I also caught some action at Princeton Jct
The ACMUs of course are my favorite MTA RR equipment.
You gotta love how someone changed the little sign on the right hand sign. I guess it is supposed to say "SPITTING ON THE FLOOR". Someone changed one of the letters in the first word. Very immature, and even stranger that I picked that up.
Look at picture MNRR_ACMU-Interrior-AC-unit.jpg
88.14 KB to see what I'm talking about.
To enable this, a wall was added just below the balcony. Everything between the wall and the original entrace became a retail space. Everything beyond the wall, towards the original screen, has remained relatively intact.
The balcony seats are still in place. The auditorium has survived with little damage. Stage and dressing rooms are also intact.
Are the original theatre areas still accessible?
--Mark
Vince
Great description! Can I use that in a book I'm writing on Brooklyn theaters? ;)
Here is the one at 62nd St.
Bay 50th
This building at Coney Island may or may not be a tower. Can anyone ID it?
The tower at Stillwell...anyone know what it is used for now? What happened to that semaphore display?
This is MO at the Jct. b/t the Hudson and Harlem lines. I know it is closed, but it sill seems used...anyone know what for?
Bay 50th St: CLOSED controlled by Stillwell Master. GRS Model 2 machine and model board preserved in place. Tower to be restored and made available for tours through the museum.
Tower at Stillwell: Closed since the 40's. No further info available.
Just heard it is being gutted. So much for it being preserved. I am going over there soon and will post an update.
COOOOOOOL!!!!!!!
The GP7 and F7 look immensely better than the ugly duckling called the BL1 or 2. Even the CF7, the GP20D and the SD90MAC-IIH look better than the bastard child of GM's automotive design department and EMD.
Not to some ... BTW, what does BL stand for ? (eye no)
"... The GP7 and F7 look immensely better ...""... Even the CF7 ..."
Hmmm, this writer thinks the covered wagons looked great, vs. those boxes on wheels (GP, SD, & U boats) ... BTW the CF7 wasn't made that way, what was it modified from ? (eye no)
RS-2, now there is an attractive site (until they start it up).
How about a GG-1 ... getting back on topic
Branch Line
BTW the CF7 wasn't made that way, what was it modified from ?
F7
I've thought the CF7 is UGLY since the first one I saw many years ago. It's functional, though, which is why the uglification was done.
"BTW the CF7 wasn't made that way, what was it modified from ?" ... "F7"
Good guess, but wrong, they were an even older model, the EMD "FT"
What did government tax programs have to do with the ATSF rebuilding F7's into CF7's at Cleburne, Texas, shops?
Santa Fe was given a government tax write-off for reinvesting in its fleet. The conditions attached were along the lines of: you must rebuild existing fleet and not buy new. Reason: to give the people at the shops something to do, instead of laying them off.
Economically, it made no sense to rebuild; it would probably have been (marginally) cheaper to buy new sets.
AEM7
Perhaps we have different sources of information.
Did you take into account of such factors as: reliability, capability, maintainability of such rebuilds versus newbuilds, and its corresponding impact on railroad operations -- and thence the total cost of ownership? Then all those costs would have to be depreciated back to the point of investment...
Budd Metroliners, SPV's, Turbo Train, GP-50's (aka GP-40-3's and GP 38-3's) are all still out there... what does that say about their reliability?
- Metroliners & SPVs are now only used as unpowered coaches
- RTL Turbos went thru that expensive overhaul & still aren'e working too well :-(
- GP-xx many RxR are still getting a lot of work out of them, e.g. GP-38s here at NY & Atl ... GP-40 at Shore Line East
My only point was that, at least a few of the CF7s were still in use.
Baldwin made VOs, DRs, RFs, & Centipede after there famous steam era.
Monday's Park Slope Courier has the front page article "Ousted Streetcar King Fights Back", sub-headline "Former Landlord Named in $100,000 Civil Lawsuit".
Bob D. is suing owner Greg O'Connell for not making repairs to the site after the pier collapsed, "preventing Diamond from realizing his dream of restoring trolley service to the borough". The minimum of $100,000 in damages is the income he claims his group lost when the entryway was damaged in August 2001.
Diamond filed the lawsuit on March 18th, and the next court date is set for March 30th (it was today - stay tuned!).
Some quotes from Bob Diamond:
"It's a shame he didn't fix the damage in 2001. Apparently, he is very goot talking on both sides of his mouth."
BEFORE the eviction notice (12/03): (about O'Connell) "Besides being a businessman, Greg is also a visionary and a dreamer. He knows something is out there that is beyond making money."
NOW: "I should have known with the evicion notice, where he was really coming from. He was probably not a supporter of the project for several years, but he paid lip sercie when necessary for good press relations."
Asked why O'Connell would let the BHRA stay on the property for over 10 years free of charge: "He did let us stay there, but then again, it was supposed to be an attraction for his development site".
"BHRA put a lot of sweat equity, there was a quid pro quo. He got a lot of work out of us. It wasn't just that he was beign a nice guy donating space out of the kindness of his heart...I was basically deluding myself thinking he was on the up and up".
Some quotes from Greg O'Connell:
"You try to give him as much time as you can".
Restoring trolley service would be "a great idea", but the situation with Diamond's BHRA "is very frustrating after a while."
"I just say a prayer for this guy, I just wish him well".
My comments - it's only "quid pro quo" (ie, trade-offs) only if both sides know about it. If Greg O'C was not aware of the extra work Bob D. & Co was doing, why would he necessarily value it as much as Bob would? Neither the NYC DoT nor the Fed DoT thought Bob's sweat equity amounted to the private contribution required for this financing grant, so why would the owner (esp. with a supermarket project pending).
Poor Bob, his own worst enemy!
Just a sort of question...but did trolleys ever run in Long Island?
Absolutely, and all over Long Island. I can't even begin to tell you all the towns and villages that had them, but just toucing the surface is:
Patchogue
Huntington
Blue Point
The list goes on.....
Peace,
ANDEE
Obviously in the Monorail episode, they have the 1964/5 one, but they incorrectly animate the monorail. The real one was suspended from above.
The references to the 30's WF was in a much more recent episode (I don't know which one, but maybe Pigs can pitch in with that one). All I remember is that Homer won something and Mr. Burns awards him with a pamplet advertising the WF, having the all famous tower and sphere proudly displayed.
The one where Homer's license is revoked.
Although certainly more towns in Nassau had them, many towns in Suffolk had trolleys too. Patchogue and Blue Point are definites, and I think Amityville, Babylon, Huntington, and Riverhead had them too. I know there are others.
One of the first monorail-like device was actually run in Suffolk county in the late 1800's or early 1900's. It was a train that ran on a monrail, suspended from the air. (meaning the train ran under the track). This ran from Bellport to Patchogue along land that is between what is now the LIRR tracks and Montauk Highway. I have a photo of it somewhere.
Yes, and the one track down the middle of the street remains today. I read that the last time trolleys used this track was 1927, the year the last D-Types were delivered.
Bill "Newkirk"
Also, the Northport trolley still has quite a bit of its tracks still showing.
No, the prospect of Bob Diamond running trolleys in Brooklyn has been obliterated.
Maybe Sellkirk? If he can just let go from the craziness of Arnines, I'll consider his leadership. :P
Frank Hicks
Still there
Does anyone know the fate of these three cars, or did this become an urban legend?
--Mark
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Bill "Newkirk"
What train were you on?
I think that i'm missing something...:(
Yes, i now feel really ditzy for my first post
-Chris
Da Hui
1. Using MTA bought equipment whenever possible
2. 'Express' schedules on the Port line,except for a off peak train in each direction . Express meaning no stops between Suffern and Secaucus in each direction [one peak train STILL annoyingly stops at Ridgewood for some reason....There is also one peak train that operates as a 'super' express-non-stop to/from Harriman]
3 The opportunity to 'add on' whenever NJT does an equipment order,thus keeping everything compatible...
the MTA also helped out in paying for Secaucus [some say as much as 25%] and helps in other capital improvements to the NJT properties as well
One subtle thing I noticed with this latest contract is prior to it, the NJT conductors would NOT make any station announcements inbound until you reached Suffern..this now has been corrected...also now the Port line stations have been equipped with TVMs,whereas all non-commuter tickets before were bought onboard
There was talk of MNR buying the section of Pascack Valley line in NY state (Spring Valley-Montvale, NJ line) and the Port Jervis-Suffern section and having them under MTA jurdiction, but nothing heard yet.
Driving back up that way on Friday AM, hoping that I'll catch some more action then.
CG