Before I announce the top 5, here's what everyone had to say:
1: Three words: Frankford Transportation Center
2: NJT opens Secaucus Transfer
3: WMATA makes a quick BUCK at Addison Road.
4: PATH returns to WTC
5: Extension of Hudson-Bergen Light Rail to 22nd Street
WORST...
1: ANOTHER pushback for the River Line's opening ... it could have been #3 of best, but that will wait till 2004
2: 9/22/2003: Route 13 hits the wall!
3: Twilight Shoreliner: That's ALL, folks!
4: CSX kicks the R8 Fox Chase off it's own tracks
5: WMATA fare increase...
HONORABLE MENTION:
Best: Bredas Equatus CAFicus... nice overhaul, WMATA
Best:... and the Broad-Ridge Spur LIVES!
Best: In-progress renovation of Walnut-Locust Station, local stop and Express terminal on the Broad Street Line... looks nice on the completed end.
Best: In-progress elevator installation and canopy entrance construction at 30th Street Station (MFL/Subway-Surface Lines)
Best: Mid-Winter trip announced!
Worst: ... "via Ronald Reagan National Airport"... the renaming was ENOUGH, this is plain wrong!
Worst: Regional Rail's on-time performance lately.
Worst: Adieu, Redbirds... I hardly knew ye. But the future we have to look forward to.
Worst: "Frank R. Lautenberg Secaucus Junction"? NJT, quit sucking up; your name is NOT Kirby!
Strange: Stadium-Armory=WORSE crunch than Metro Center??? (My poor back)
Disastrous: The SI Ferry crash.
Funny: SNJLRTS becomes the "River Line"
Festive: FTC opening day... people STILL couldn't find the 20, though.
The return of the R1/9s for the first time since the original Nostalgia trains ended in the early 1980s.
--Mark
Nobody's mentioned the fare being raised to $2.00. That may be not be a positive development, but it's certainly a big one.
Retirement of the Redbirds, the 7 train fleet being entirely R62A and the advent of Airtrain are, in my personal opinion, negative developments. Some may view them as positive.
Then there's the arrival of the M7s.
The top moment for me was the opening of the 22nd street terminal at the Hudson Bergen Light rail. I can now walk to the station in five minutes!
Perhaps the most momentous moment was the return of PATH to the World Trade Center
#3 West End Jeff
The way NYC transit and other workers assisted passengers during the blackout. It wasn't easy keeping people calm for up to 6 hours in an unairconditioned subway car, yet evacuations took place with limited amounts of problems. -Nick
I would submit that the operation of Chicago Aurora & Elgin 36 and 303 in Cleveland in July would fit in there somewhere, seeing as it was the first operation of wooden interurban cars in revenue service in approximately 45 years (when did QRL&P quit?). Whether this event qualifies as best, worst or notorious is a matter of opinion. :-)
Frank Hicks
Farewell to the Redbirds trips...
The best was the return of PATH to the WTC.
Coming in second was the opening of the JFK AIRTRAIN.
Third, was the opening of Secaucus Junction by NJT.
The worst was the SI Ferry crash, and the LACMTA strike
I think the new FTC in Philly looks great, and I can't wait until the
rest of it is finally completed. Maybe the Trackless Trolleys will be back at the same time. I guess I'll be waiting a long,long,time.
Chuck Greene
Now, the top 5 transit moments of 2003. To be honest, this was tough for me to do, since alot of these are top moments of 2003. But none the less, I choosed the 5, and here they are:
5. The reopening of the Frankford Transportation Center
4. The August 15 blackout
3. Septa receiving 2 of 22 rebuild PCC cars
2. The Staten Island Ferry Accident
1. Retirement of the Redbirds
I would like to thank everyone for contributing.
It was actually August 14th. I should know because it's my dad's birthday.
When I awoke the morning of the 15th, the power was on where I was.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
2004 marks 100 years of subway service in New York
Regards,
Jimmy
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Nevermind.
So do I, but I have to refrain myself because they are not polite and because DaveP doesn't want them and we have to respect DaveP.
What part of the following don't you understand?
Welcome to the SubTalk bulletin board at www.nycsubway.org. This board can be used for discussions of rail transit systems worldwide. It is not limited solely to New York City topics, but please stick to rapid/rail transit issues only. Off-topic and harassing posts will be removed at the discretion of the management. Please note! This site is not run by MTA New York City Transit!
No, I didn't give my option, I stated facts. The facts are that the webmaster, DaveP, says that off-topic posts are not allowed. Therefore, you shouldn't post off-topic posts. I don't know how I can be more clear about that.
And that goes for all of you who made all those "happy new year" posts. What gives you the right to make those? They are off-topic and totally cluttered up the board. You should all be ashamed of yourselves.
"...I am willing to bet that NIMBYKILLER, QTRAINDASH, and the other NIMBY haters on this board would scream bloody murder if a methadone center, homeless shelter, drug rehab, garbage dump, or a halfway house opened on their block..."
that was off-topic but alright, no more off-topic material from me. i don't think i even made any those posts before in this thread to begin with. i only asked what a NIMBY was...i honestly didnt know there was more to it than it's transit-related definition. but I don't want to add fuel to the fire, i understand what you're saying though.
Don't be so quick to judge people based on your own mere assumptions.
I do. The property values would go through the floor. You don't save up money in order to make a down payment on a house and then have to pay the mortgage just to have the property value slashed. Only a person who rents would say that they want everything in their backyard.
OK
Modifications can be undone.
At cost
And AIUI, there's nothing legally wrong with improving somebody else's property.
Yes there is. What looks like an improvement to one person is a degradation to another.
Yes
or bury the north end of the line
No
or branch off over the GCP.
Yes
OTOH, if there were some reasonable compromise about elevated rail near an airport along GCP, and about private views not being part of the legal public domain, New York might have access to all three of its airports.
Like JFK, LGA would:
* Be paid for by Port Authority. The $635 million MTA has set aside for LGA access could go to SAS or ESA.
* Run via highways, rail ROWs, and Sunnyside Yard to Queensboro Plaza, taking over the old BMT stn location.
* Have many connections, to 7/N/W and E/V/G/R (a connection inside fare control between Queensboro Plaza and Queens Plaza would be part of the deal), and LIRR.
* Later, run to Penn Stn via a connection north of Sunnyside (when Penn capacity opens up).
* Have the ability to run into the subway system, by following the N/W.
(For JFK, it's much more likely AirTrains will go onto the subway than vice versa. It's unlikely the whole A fleet will be replaced with dual modes, esp. when only 4 of the 10 could platform).
Airtrain routing should stay as it is, via the Van Wyck. The only branch would be to Flushing Main St station for connection to LIRR, the 7, and more than 24 bus lines. Then up the GCP to LGA, terminating at the LGA ferry terminal.
But miles more construction, and requires travellers coming from the west to go all the way to Flushing or Jamaica for their AirTrain connection.
No, that's what the N/W extension would be for. Yeah, it's more construction, but it doesn't take away existing service from certain neighborhoods.
The '99 hearing was more raucous than any I've ever attended.
The '99 hearing was more raucous than any I've ever attended.
It was an impressive display, and probably why we haven't heard a thing in 5 years.
But I don't think so. MTA was pretty settled on an extension at the time.
I found the LASA Final Scoping Memorandum in the files. From August 2000. 24 pages. Worth scanning in at some point if this thing gets any traction again.
There were 22 options, including "NYCT-7": a branch of the N/W peeling off before the Astoria Blvd. Stn. and going along/above the GC Parkway to LGA.
The other options included extensions of the 7, LIRR, Queens Blvd, SAS(!), peoplemovers, ferries and busways.
But it was abundantly clear that they wanted "NYCT-10," an elevated extension using 19th Ave, and that was the focus of the comments.
For example, the stated goals for the screening criteria included "one-seat trips" from "Lower and Midtown Manhattan." This effectively means a subway extension of the N/W. These goals elimated almost all the options, including a 7 extension, an LIRR extension or any kind of AirTrain.
I'd still rather have the PA do the project for a number of reasons, including saving the MTA the cost (and freeing up the $635 million they're still sitting on).
Anyway, I'm not sure there's enough ridership to justify both.
By comparison, full-length SAS would be 591,000/day.
An extension of the current Airtrain system all the way from Jamaica/JFK would allow convenient, predictable transfers from flights between JFK and LGA. That would open up many more options for travelers as well as airlines and help make New York a more attractive market for them.
An extension of N/W would be much more useful to Manhattanites and business travelers - probably one of the largest markets for LGA. (although I can't prove that)
Both extensions would complement each other instead of being redundant.
I was thinking of setting off my diaphone at 12 Midnight but thought better of it. Didn't want the cops showing up at my door wondering what that awful sound was.
wayne
Da Hui
Da Hui
Chuck Greene
WEDNESDAY, DECEMBER 31 (Eastbound)
There will be 12 additional trains between 1:26 PM and 3:48 PM on Wednesday, December 31; six on the Babylon Branch, two on the Port Jefferson Branch to Huntington, one on the Port Jefferson Branch to Hicksville, one on the Ronkonkoma Branch, one on the Port Washington Branch to Great Neck and one on the Far Rockaway Branch.
Babylon Branch
· Leave Penn Station at 1:26 PM, express to Rockville Centre, then all stops to Babylon.
· Leave Penn Station at 1:38 PM, express to Rockville Centre, then all stops to Babylon.
· Leave Penn Station at 2:11 PM, express to Rockville Centre, then all stops to Babylon.
· Leave Penn Station at 2:25 PM, express to Lynbrook, then all stops to Babylon.
· Leave Penn Station at 2:58 PM, stopping at Jamaica, Rockville Centre, then all stops to Babylon.
· Leave Penn Station at 3:31 PM, express to Rockville Centre, then all stops to Babylon.
Far Rockaway Branch
· Leave Penn Station at 3:48 PM, stopping at Valley Stream, then all stops to Far Rockaway.
Port Jefferson Branch (to Huntington)
· Leave Penn Station at 2:08 PM, stopping at Jamaica, Carle Place, then all stops to Huntington.
· Leave Penn Station at 2:29 PM, stopping at Jamaica, New Hyde Park, then all stops to Huntington.
Port Jefferson Branch (to Hicksville)
· Leave Penn Station at 3:24 PM, stopping at Jamaica, Mineola, Westbury and Hicksville.
Port Washington Branch (to Great Neck)
· Leave Penn Station at 3:40 PM, stopping at Woodside, Flushing Main St., then all stops to Great Neck.
Ronkonkoma Branch
· Leave Penn Station at 2:46 PM, stopping at Jamaica, Bethpage, Farmingdale, Wyandanch, then all stops to Ronkonkoma.
WEDNESDAY, DECEMBER 31 (Westbound )
There will be 17 additional westbound trains on New Year's Eve, Wednesday, December 31 between 4:55 PM and 8:36 PM on the Babylon, Montauk, Port Jefferson, Long Beach, Hempstead and Port Washington and Ronkonkoma Branches.
Babylon Branch
· Leave Babylon at 6:20 PM, making all stops to Rockville Centre, then Jamaica and Penn Station.
· Leave Babylon at 7:19 PM, making all stops to Rockville Centre, then Jamaica and Penn Station.
· Leave Freeport at 7:24 PM, stopping at Baldwin, Rockville Centre, Jamaica and Penn Station.
Montauk Branch
· Leave Speonk at 8:03 PM, making all stops to Babylon, then Jamaica and Penn Station.
Port Jefferson Branch
· Leave Huntington at 4:55 PM, stopping at Cold Spring Harbor, Syosset, Hicksville, Jamaica and Penn Station.
· Leave Hicksville at 6:59 PM, making all stops to Jamaica and Penn Station.
· Leave Port Jefferson at 7:15 PM, making all stops to Greenlawn, then Hicksville, Jamaica and Penn Station.
· Leave Hicksville at 7:33 PM, making all stops to Jamaica and Penn Station.
· Leave Huntington at 7:38 PM, making all stops to Jamaica and Penn Station.
· Leave Huntington at 8:29 PM, making all stops to Westbury, then Mineola, Merillon Avenue, New Hyde Park, Jamaica and Penn Station.
Long Beach Branch
· Leave Long Beach at 5:57 PM, making all stops to Lynbrook, then Jamaica and Penn Station.
· Leave Long Beach at 7:25 PM, making all stops to Lynbrook, then Valley Stream, Jamaica and Penn Station.
Hempstead Branch
· Leave Hempstead at 6:48 PM, making all stops to Jamaica and Penn Station.
Port Washington Branch
· Leave Great Neck at 7:07 PM, making all stops to Flushing Main St. and Penn Station.
· Leave Port Washington at 8:36 PM, making all stops to Great Neck, then Bayside and Penn Station.
Ronkonkoma Branch
· Leave Ronkonkoma at 6:24 PM, making all stops to Wyandanch, then Farmingdale, Bethpage, Mineola, Jamaica and Penn Station.
· Leave Ronkonkoma at 8:36 PM, making all stops to Wyandanch, then Farmingdale, Bethpage, Mineola, Jamaica and Penn Station.
NEW YEAR'S DAY, THURSDAY, JANUARY 1 (Eastbound)
The LIRR will be operating on a holiday (weekend) schedule with six additional eastbound trains early New Year's Day.
Babylon Branch
· Leave Penn Station at 1:12 AM stopping at Jamaica, Lynbrook and all stops to Babylon.
Montauk Branch
· Leave Penn Station at 1:24 AM, stopping at Jamaica, Babylon and all stops to Speonk.
Port Jefferson Branch
· Leave Penn Station at 1:15 AM, stopping at Jamaica, Hicksville, and all stops to Port Jefferson.
· Leave Penn Station at 1:30 AM, stopping at New Hyde Park and all stops to Huntington.
Port Washington Branch
· Leave Penn Station at 1:49 AM, stopping at Woodside, Flushing Main St., then all stops to Port Washington.
Ronkonkoma Branch
· Leave Penn Station at 1:43 AM, stopping at Jamaica, Mineola, Hicksville, Bethpage, Farmingdale, Wyandanch and all stops to Ronkonkoma.
Anyway, I have been very skeptical of CC LOCAL's claims of sickness ever since that whole thing with his "cousin" posting as him back in April. This and other behaviors led me to label him as a phoney and a fraud. Well, recently I said that I would accept the good word of another established subtalker if they were to vouch for CC LOCAL's good character. Arrow III stepped forward and did so and because I am a man of my word I accept Arrow III's voucher and am hereby issuing an appology to CC LOCAL for accusing him of faking any illness or other personal problem. I wish him and whatever family members he has a speedy recovery from whatever their ailments in the new year.
Moreover, skpetical as I still might be, I will not hound CC LOCAL on the validity these or any new personal issues in this new year unless he gives me some blatent reason to.
However, I remain quite displeased with CC LOCAL regarding the content and quantity of his posts and moreover, his refusal to accept any critisism whatsoever. Therefore I will continue to voice my displeasure regarding the content of of his posts here on Subtalk.
So in summary, I hereby apologize to CC LOCAL for doubting the validity of his claims of ill health.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Then they will flame you. It's really a wonderful system.
What is a "vato" ?
Eddy Guerrero of WWE uses it often and prompt, esse.
Happy 2004!
Happy New Year Everyone!
Oh, and by the way, I wish a healthy and happy New Year to all.
Definately an interesting sight.
Da Hui
A 1948 PCC from GE, only had it's GOH back in the 1980s, other than that it's about as historic as they come. Didn't take any pics myself, owing to a lack of digital cameras around here, but I'm sure some will turn up from the other participants of the fantrip.
Why are film cameras suddenly unacceptable for transit photography?
Chuck
Welcome to the SubTalk bulletin board at www.nycsubway.org. This board can be used for discussions of rail transit systems worldwide. It is not limited solely to New York City topics,
but please stick to rapid/rail transit issues only.
Off-topic and harassing posts will be removed at the discretion of the management. Please note! This site is not run by MTA New York City Transit!
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
When your questions pry on intrusive, or demeaning of private, personal ("security") & transit purposes,
that's when you're OFF, bub.
Anyway, I think most SubTalkers would disagree with [1. Sights you saw while RIDING the subway/or other RAIL r-a-i-l system.] Everyone is pretty much in agreement that my thread regarding a sweatshop I thought I saw from riding over the Manhattan Bridge was off topic.
Anyway, I think most SubTalkers would disagree with [1. Sights you saw while RIDING the subway/or other RAIL r-a-i-l system.] Everyone is pretty much in agreement that my thread regarding a sweatshop I thought I saw from riding over the Manhattan Bridge was off topic.
TD
This is probably the case for this particular driver.
I have seen people run into the sides of moving trains, especially at night. I do not think the problem should be so bad on the LIRR as it is out here, but I have found that the issue is this:
1) There are red and white reflective stripes at the bottom of the car, right at the eye level of an approaching driver.
2) The reflection of your own headlights on these stripes if very mesmerizing, and you very quickly loose your sense of depth perception.
3) That the gates are red and white, and that they also have flashing lights on them, and that they are at the same level as the protective stripes on the train cars makes any perception of the gates disapear.
--- Therefore it is easy to drive into the side of a train.
I am well pleased to stop 100 to 300 feet away from the crossing gates, and to wait for the train to clear. Trying to 'snuggle up' to the crossing gates in this situation can be dangerous, because your depth perception is negated by the moving train. (Same as it would be for your diital camera.)
Elias
CSX line that goes through Ijamsville, MD, where my aunt lives, doesn't have any gates at all! How scary is that? Getting creamed by a 100-car freight train isn't fun!
"Attention Bethpage and Deer Park Passengers, please do not cross the tracks or in front of the train until the gates are in the upright position. This is for your safety and it's the law. thank You!"
Because of the configuration of these two stations people would frequently run off the train and race to cross the tracks to get tot he parking areas. She would make this announcement nightly but nightly at least one jerk would still cross in front of the train. No, Elias, the problem is one of stupidity and no matter how many safety devices you use and precautions you take, you can never under-estimate the determination and inventiveness of a fool.
Why was this? Couldn't the express have made the west Canal Street its last stop (by switching to local tracks after Prince St, and used the crossover directly after the station?
Julian
The exp. trains would switch to local after Prince Street. They would then stop at the west Canal Street, like a regular local train. They then could either turn around using the crossover south of Canal, or continue into Brooklyn as a local.
Julian
you ment: How do you figure track plans like what you just said?
Theres a crossover south of the Canal Street station (on the local level) that leads to the never used lower level of City hall. Its in the track maps on this website.
And stop using that aol slang and learn some proper english damnit.
Maybe this would finally be an AFFORDABLE option? :)
#3 West End Jeff
For that matter, the LIRR's had no waysides on a LOT of it's territory (they're gone on the PW line, and a lot of the mainline, save for interlockings), and they've had none of these 'incedents'.
This wasn't caused by the signal system, it was caused by an employee violating plenty of rules for some reason. Given the shitty OTP of Acela, I wonder how much pressure there is to run on time, and if that's a factor here. Had the engineer been following proceedure, this wouldn't have happened. He didn't, it did.
I was talking with a Canadian signal engineer on the Maple Leaf and I got into the current American trend toward "Rule 562" operation with signals only at interlockings. When I mentioned that MNRR had taken it a step further and gome to 3 aspect dwarfs at interlockings, he said and I quote "That's crazy".
Of course Canadian railroads are militant practitoners of speed signals with such aspects as "Medium Approach Limited" and "Limited Approach Slow" with all three heads flashing at once, so he might be a little bias.
I was a bit critical of the LIRR earlier using its ASC to enforce both civil and signal speeds, but less so now, as whatever those two heigher ones are (60/70) only get given with a signal status of CLEAR, so there is no confusion of where your speed restriction is comming from. The engineer know's he's diverging from the 60 cab, he sees he's entering a clear block from the signal, he's good to go. In case of ASC failure bulitin order could have him approach said interlockings at 60 mph.
Amtrak had the problem of having its clear be equal to 120mph, so it needed to invent the "Cab Speed" aspect and Cab Signal (flashing green) for use over HST's. It's just about the biggest hack there is, but in practice it should be pretty straight forward. If you want me to try to explain it I can but its nuts.
What really gets my hackles raised with Amtrak is its treatment of Approach Limited. For both Approach Med and Approach Slow the engineer is given a 15mph leeway. Approach Limited always got folded into the approach med cab signal. Well, now Amtrak rolls out 6 new cab signals one of which being Approach Limited. Well, do the engineers get the 15mph leeway? Nope, its Approach Limited 45. That's even worse is that there is a Cab Speed 80 and a Cab Speed 60. Ditch the Cab Speed 60 and replace it with Approach Limited 60. When your blocks are 2 miles lone and your trains get hit with a diverging route, that 1.75 miles at 45mph really cuts deep. And worse, its not like you're behind someone and not going anywhere anyway, you have a nice clear route ahead of your and are stuck at 45. It really ties up fluid operations. On non-cab signaled lines the Engineer usually maintains linespeed until the interlocking is in sight and then slows down. At the very least the cab signaled lines should give the same 15mph leeway for LIMITED it does for MEDIUM and SLOW.
This actually puts Amtrak first on my slap around with a big foam hand list. MNRR is close behind with their WalMart signal heads.
The bigger hack seems to be American signalling practice, period. It was great 100 years ago when trains were slow, electronics didn't exist, and crashes were a fact of life. Today, what more does the engineer really need to know beyond how fast he can go and if he's diverging or not? Not much, IMHO. and tha'ts info that a cab signal system can deliver and use, and present MUCH more clearly than all of this approach this, limited that stuff. Hey, itwas great 100 years ago. Times changed. maybe it's time to look at signalling again...
You ain't see what they got over in the UK. Their whole Pure Route Signaling shit has gotten them in a whole world of hurt. They use every trick in the book to try to get the drivers to slow down (route arrows, signals held at Red, etc)...except enforce speeds in the rulebooks. No no, wait, on their "advance apporach" the driver must slow to 75mph and I think that their HST's need a special 5 block clear to go 140. Remember, that their blocks are like .5 miles long too. I think that some signals are now comming with "suggested" speeds, but you'll never see an honest to god rule about it.
Today, what more does the engineer really need to know beyond how fast he can go and if he's diverging or not? Not much, IMHO. and tha'ts info that a cab signal system can deliver and use, and present MUCH more clearly than all of this approach this, limited that stuff.
You're thinking too along the lines of LIRR style passenger running. LIRR trains can stop on a dime, they don't need to worry about "train handling". They are either short or all MU's. Tightlock couplers and no slack action. When you're piloting a freight trains with 196 cars up and down grades knowing the track condition 2 blocks ahead of you is vital. NORAC aspects provide both block occupancy and routespeed information (not an exact route, but a speed forwhatever route you're on). If you're on a freight train you need to take immediate and vastly different actions at the distant and sometimes at the point the distant comes into view depending on if you need to stop or just slow down by the next signal. Why do you think that on the cab signaled freight routes the train's don't come witn ATC? It's because the sledge hammer ATC system would lead to slack induced derailments or engineers getting their braking air pissed away resulting in a runaway train. Engineers and freight engineers especially need to know two things, what do I do now, what do I do at the next signal. Cab signals as they stand only tell someone what they need to do now. We either need to increase the number of cab signals (al la Amtrak) or provide full wayside signals at key locations to supplement the engineer's knowledge (al la everyone but Metro North).
Notice how both Amtrak and MNRR have very restrictive rules regarding the handling of freight on their systems. There are a number of reasons including rail damage, but one of them, especially in the case of the MNRR 15mph MEDIUM speed for freights, is that the signaling system cannot guarentee safe operations otherwise. While all of us living along the NEC can develop a fairly passenger centric view of things, once you get out in the other 90% of the country you'll see the millions of highway truckloads of freight being moved profitably from origin to destination. Rail freight is just as important as passenger rail and sacrificing one for the other is counter productive. You need to get your head out of the European clouds. Germany just ran its heaviest ever freight train at the astounding weight of 6,000 tonnes. Well, over here 20,000 tonne trains are an every day occurance. BTW, here's an interesting factiod for ya. Did you know that cab signals in Germany, the ones you are always touting, are only in operation on the high speed lines? Moreover, a grest percent of the railroads in Germany are signaled manually without track circuts. I'm not talking Form D here, but guys in towers with double wire pull semaphores and crank operated block devices. There are over 2000 manual tower still in operation in Germany with about 4000-5000 active towers all together.
Today, what more does the engineer really need to know beyond how fast he can go and if he's diverging or not?
To reitterate, engineers on unresponsive trains need to know how fast they need to be going at the next signal as well as how fast they can currently go.
I agree with this statement. I was at a PTC (positive train control) workshop two years ago and I got into a discussion with some signalling people about how you stop the train once you notice that it's about to pass a STOP signal and you're running downgrade with a poorly loaded train. Basically that you'll need to stick a derail in the track and hope for the best, because if you dump the air you'll end up with a pile up which might even be worse than running thru the switch and have the train come to a stop. Allegedly, as a part of this guy's research (and he's pretty high up in the FRA) he went out and rode the Clinchfield (I think) over a number of runs... and he pointed out that the good engineers never, ever touch the air when running intermodals. They basically only use the air to stop -- because of the grades, everything else is done with the dynamic. If your train is going at like 22mph and you want to slow down to 15mph, there's no hope in hell that you'll be able to do that with air. Basically, you'll have to go to either EPB (electo-pneumatic brakes) or you'll have to teach the PTC apparatus how to use the dynamic brakes, which ain't easy.
PTC on freight trains has got a long way to go yet.
once you get out in the other 90% of the country you'll see the millions of highway truckloads of freight being moved profitably from origin to destination.
I disagree with the word "profitably" in that sentence. Only a small portion of freight is truely profitable these days. The rest simply breaks even or make a loss, depending on how you do the capital cost allocation.
a great percent of the railroads in Germany are signaled manually without track circuits.
That is true, and has been pointed out that track circuits are not necessarily needed in a CBTC installation, since they detect so few rail breaks anyway, and never detect rail kinks. Germany's low speed lines is one of the cited examples.
I don't know what lines you're talking about, but the lines I am referring to have just plain manual block signaling via block device and semaphore. That's just out of the 1980's.
Track circuts are necessary for more than just broken rail. They detect flooded track, loose cars drifted out of sidings or yards, motor vehicles on the tracks (which happens more often than you think), open non-interlocked switches, etc. They also provide a very easy way for anyone (employee or emergency official) to signal to the dispatcher/train that there is some problem with the track. All one needs to do is jumper the rails and it is detected instantly by approaching trains and the dispatcher.
By the way -- signalling issues is not really the way to judge a railroad. If Amtrak thought the MNRR system is superior for its purposes, it would have adopted them, cash permitting. And my understanding is that they did go to zero waysides between New Haven and Boston. They know what they are doing, they are just laden with old plant.
AEM7
The arguement here is not between intermediate or no intermediate waysides or cab signals or no cab signals, it is if the home signals should dislay the full range of aspects and if those home signals should be accompanied with wayside distants.
MNRR says no cause they don't want to fork out the $$. Amtrak says yes because it is a valuable redundancy.
Please, tell me why it is a good thing not to provide the Engineer with MORE infomration about where he's going?
the old system with waysides gave us several crashes due to simmular rules infractions.
Are you talking about waysides without cab signals at all as was installed on the Hudson and Harlem lines?
let record show that Amtrak with wayside signals has had a lot of close calls and actual dammage from slight rules infractions.
The recond can show it when you actually provide examples or how wayside signals in the presence of cab signals added to an accident.
ACES despite being downward compatible with older systems is only as good as the employees handeling the equipment. and with Amtraks one size fits all engineer training accidents will happen.
What does that have to do with weather or not home signals can display the complete 14 aspect set or just 3?
Frankly, MNRR has already admitted to the faulures in its own system by needing to install the route indicators at MO and WOODHAVEN.
I'm just sick of railroads trading lightbulbs for safety and efficiency.
If you could prove to me why not having full signals at interlockings is somehow better hey, I'd accept that. I'm here to learn. But if you're just going to be a pompus asshole like Train Dude who thinks that his world should be taken as gosble due to some inate sense of superriority then where does that leave me or the rest of Subtalk?
I have made a valid arguement, what the fuck does it matter who I am and what my background is. If I am so wrong why don't you prove it to the world. Knock me down with a well formed logical arguement as to why getting Cab Speed is better than Medium Clear or how same could prevent accidents.
I have very little signal expertise but I must agree with your assessment here. Back in September, during a driving rainstorm, my AM LIRR train lost P-Wire enroute. After the conductor (a close friend of mine) cut out the EP cocks on the head 4 cars, the engineer was able to operate from the 5th. My friend was flagging from the head car. We were ordered to operate below 40 MPH to jamaica. There were two specific locations where we had to get 'Absolute' signal aspects. In the rain, virtually every signal looked like it was blinking. Even with the two of us watching, we had a great deal of difficulty distinguishing signal aspects. This was equally difficult as we approached jamaica with all of the dwarf signals.
I agree with this statement. Complex interlocking signals was also behind the Ladbroke Grove accident on British Rail back in 1999 (I think). A recently qualified engineer overran a signal, failing to stop and continued for some 700 yds past the stop signal. Apparently the problem was visibility as well as a confusing array of gantry signals on a 6-track mainline.
But that fact is no reason to go to cheap ass "Wal-Mart" signals. The reason for going to Wal-Mart signals is really cost-driven, and the true cost of that decision is that when CSS is dead, MNCW can only operate at 40mph. So capacity is very low during a CSS failure. I'm sure they calculated the probability of this and costed it all out, and decided that tall signals wasn't worth the marginal benefit in case of a CSS failure.
AEM7
You can display 14 speeds or Go/No-Go at the home signal and still route the train to the wrong track.
So Mike are you advocating true ROUTE signaling here? Or do dwarves on mainline tracks just offend your esthetics?
I believe that DRN is argueing from a position of personal bias rather than reason. He thinks the MNRR system is superrior because he's worked there for god knows how long and nobody is going to tell him otherwise. I am going to stick with what I learned from the operator at SS75 who was pissed that he couldn't display a Restricting for power change moves.
Is that true? Or partly true?
I understand the point and, if I remember my simple physics correctly, a crash at 30 mph is 4x as severe as one at 15 mph (the square of the increase in speed).
But ... not saying it's unimportant but, how dangerous is it really for two trains to be heading toward each other at 15 mph, in terms of being able to stop before a collision? Elevated local trains on most older lines used to run on visual rules, ditto most older light rail, including on single track. Autos on suburban 2-way streets with parked cars manuever past each other all the time, usually going 25-30 mph each.
In Scotland there is an extensive system of "single track" roads for autos with turnouts to pass. No signals, seems to work, and you could often reach speeds of 60km/h or more between turnouts.
Granted, trains are not autos, and a single significant rail accident would cause an uproar over operating practices, while we more or less shrug off all but the most severe highway accidents.
I'm not arguing in any way against more sophisticated signalling systems, but I've long wondered whether we hold rail safety to an incredibly high standards, while we don't pay that much attention to the fact that we have 40-ton trucks (assuming everybody's operating legal) hurtling round our highways, controlled only by highway signs and No-Doze.
That all comes down to the conditions and the mindset of the engineer. Trains have vastly different handling properties and sightlines are inconsistant. Barring total computer automation, signaling systems are granular. The engineer needs to make the final interperitations as to how he should be handling his train. As I noted in my other post, there is a big differance b/t moving at SLOW and RESTRICTED speed. Moreover there is a big differance between moving at MEDIUM speed (30 mph) and MEDIUM prepared to stop at next signal. That next signal could be visable from 5000 feet away, or, it could be around a curve with a 500 foot sightline.
I will admit that the terms "1/2 vision" and "prepared to stop" are highly subjective, but with proper training Engineers will be able to follow these rules. This system has been in place for about 100 or so years and I feel it has proven to be highly successful.
Movements at restricted Speed must apply the following three methods of operation.
1) Control of the movement to permit stopping in the range of 1/2 vision sort of [crap including other trains or railroad equipment fouling the track]
2) Looking out for Broken Rail
3) Not exceeding 20 mph outside interlocking limits, 15 mph within.
When you pass a RESTRICTING signal or get a RESTRICTING cab independent of a wayside signal you move at Restricted speed. YEs, your might be closing with another train at speeds approaching 40 mph, but because you and the other engineer are prepared to stop within one half vision you should both make a safe stop nose to nose. When you get a RESTRICTING aspect you aren't moving at 15 or 20 mph all willy nilly, you are moving as to stop w/in 1/2 vision, which, depending on track and visibility can be as little as 1 or 2 mph.
Yes...the trains COULD hit eachother moving at 30 or 40 mph. There is nothing physically preventing the engineers from doing such a thing. Then again there is also nothing physically preventing an Engineer from cutting out the ATC and running the train as he sees fit. Engineers, including yourself, are federally certified professionals. In almost all cases they can and should be trusted to operate their trains in a safe and efficient maner.
Call it a design failure of the cab signaling system but there are times when trains need to move at slow (15mph) speed, but not Restricted speed and the cab signal displays a Restricting aspect all the same. This is why you need the fully descriptive home signals so the Engineer knows to move at restricted speed (1/2 vision) or Slow speed (15mph).
Not quite. Rule 552a states that if cab and fixes signals do not conform, the more restrictive indication shall covern the movement.
However, Rule 279 regarding Cab Signal Aspects presents a chart listing which fixed signals conform with what cab signals. Slow Clear, Slow Approach, Restricting, Stop and Proceed and Stop all conform with the Restricting cab signal aspect.
Because there is no inconformity, the fixed signal governs the movement of the train. This means that for slow speed signals the Engineer dosen't have to stop w/in 1/2 vision and can blow around blind curves at...15mph, Woo.
The speed at slow speed and restricted speed are same on Metro North.
we do not operate at max of 20, but visiting Amtrak equipment is set for 20 max in restricted cab.
if you had waysides or not the two speeds are still maximum the same. the defenition just changes a bit.
and despite the Cabsignal of Amtrak train allowing 20 mph on a no code signal(restricted/slow/yardspeed/etc) or however you want to call it its still max 15 on Metro North.
At no point am I challenging what you say about the MNRR rulebook. I am finding fault with the rulebook itself.
Where on MNRR is Slow speed used BTW? Terminal interlockings?
MNRR swings the traffic (FR poles N or R via the line circuit), and then that changes the direction the track circuits feed, right? The train bucking the direction of the block is shunting any code being sent to it and so must be talked into the block.
TA is like Gellapegos Island!
thanx for the info
And I am more than willing to accept criticism when it comes MY way.
DRN is a Metro North professional. Surprise surprise but there are differing points of view in the rail industry and I feel that after comparing the points of view that Metro North comes up wanting. DRN might feel the opposite way and I engourage him to explain why he thinks NORAC and the LIRR systems suck.
But surely that dosen't mean we can't discuss it and then agitate for change. You know NORAC accepts suggestions for its rulebooks, which has led to quite a number of pointless rules (like that diverging route TSR sign) due to people just wanting to say they got a rule in the book.
BTW, I don't think I said the MNRR rulebook sucked, it was just paranoid and inefficient. You presented as if you felt that the MNRR rulebook and all its more strict rules were somehow necessary and I was wondering why you felt that way. I wastrying to engage you in a debate. If you really just don't care one way or that other that's fine I'll leave you alone.
you read the Norac book but could probably not pass a rules class were most rules are suplemented or changed by Timetable.
Depends on if the class was for the Amtrak NEC dated Aug 2002 or not.
So far, MN's safety record speaks for itself - their 'paranoid' view of things has given them a system that's by far safer than Amtrak, and on par with the equally (if not more so) 'paranoid' LIRR. in short, the system's doing what it's supposed to do...
MNRR is great unless you're Amtrak or a freight railroad. I had to spend 4 years putting up with the Connecticut Crawl and let me tell you I got sick of it real fast.
Informative, annoying, and cheap. What more could you ask for?
Three other previews:
2004 Stillwell Reopening
2005 Complete Stillwell Open
Complete Second Avenue Subway
Complete Second Avenue Subway
Posssible colors to be used may be magenta or light blue.
Bill "Newkirk"
No, look closely. He made it a lighter shade of blue.
Yes, I saw that it was, but some computers, perhaps those with limited colors might not see a difference.
Elias
Ohhhhh Noooo! The "N" can easily switch to the express track out of the 60th Street tunnel. Besides, it would be too much service for that area of manhattan, while the "W" struggles by itself. That won't be fair! The "N" must stay in Astoria with the "W"
N Bwy
But they fear you. No one is saying it out loud.
Complete Second Avenue Subway
Nice maps. But you are missing a bit of the (Q) under Central Park.
Great maps Darkside
What program do you use/how do you draw the map? Is there a vector, non-bitmap format of an existing one? I could see using Adobe Illustrator to do it.
That must have taken a lot of work. How on earth did you align it so neatly!?
You're a brave man.
Nice map, dude.
Also, the E terminates at Jamaica Center - Parsons/Archer. Granted some trains do operate to 179th during rush hours, but that's a part time operation.
I've used Mike Calcagno's maps as base map and there is Jamaica Center
named as Parsons Blvd. I didn't made any changes to the names, except
some shortens to get space.
That's what the service guide is for.
But on the real map, the black circles for the local stops will be half-circles and will be only on the yellow line. Look at the local stops on the Eastern Parkway line for an example.
new route are
11 via flushing
12 13 via westside
10 14 via lexington
And posibily additional route for future 2nd Ave line..X or Y.
OTOH, I have heard that the R-142/A's have a program for (8) LEXINGTON AV LCL-BROOKLYN LOCAL-TO ATLANTIC AV. If that is true, then only the R-62's and a handful of R-62A's don't have it.
I wasn't at the meeting, so I don't know what was said. The slide presentation, however, specifically states, "Existing loop track retained for storage."
It's not your fault, but there are 2 loop tracks. So if the existing loop track will be used for storage, what about the inner loop track? Will there be an alteration of midday, evening and weekend #5 service that use the inner loop as well? Some unanswered questions here.
I don't think they'll demolish half the tunnel. Most likely, use of the inner loop will remain unchanged, and the outer loop will be used for layups and emergency reroutes.
Not to mention the Fan Trips too, always a blast.
I'm guessing the latter :). Neither option requires removal of the loop.
When the MTA first went to the Feds, they envisioned a three-track terminal. Since then, they have decided that the preferred configuration is two-tracks, built beneath the loop tracks. The federal approval was not tied to a single design. No one lied. This post-Robert Moses process is continuing along according to federal and state law.
Not that the MTA is above reproach. (See 2 Broadway.) We should follow the process along closely and make sure that the documents are accurate, that legitimate concerns are addressed, and they don't try to slip something past us.
I have seen comments on this site about other bottlenecks on the line that limit frequency on the 7th Avenue Local. It is not as though we want to run 90 second headways, and rebuilding South Ferry is fix that will allow it.
Sorry, I don't buy it for a minute.
Until a new bulletin was issued a week ago, dwell times weren't long at Rector. Passengers were given a chance to walk through the train past the C/R's position. The cynic in me sees the new bulletin, which requires the C/R to keep his cab door locked (for "safety" reasons, even though C/R's on routes like the C, which pass through much more dangerous parts of the city, are required to keep their doors open at all time), as a capacity-cutting measure instituted specifically to force this argument to work.
Besides, the alternate plan that many of us have proposed is to extend the existing platform and add exits but to otherwise leave the station alone. If that's done, all cars will platform and nobody will have to move from car to car.
As for the gap fillers, they add a few seconds to the dwell time. Big deal.
There was no Q&A at the hearings, but I would guess that they will have to respond to any comments about a loop being faster to turn back than a two-track stub.
No matter. From the latest incarnation of http://www.mta.info/capconstr/sft/planned.htm: "The overall design of the station will provide capacity for up to 24 trains per hour." The current design provides capacity for up to 30 tph, as long as trains aren't required by bulletin to lose time at Rector. Question answered.
I have seen comments on this site about other bottlenecks on the line that limit frequency on the 7th Avenue Local.
Which bottlenecks would those be? The only other bottleneck I'm aware of is the north terminal, but there are two alternate north terminals. With enough manpower, some trains could terminate at Dyckman or 137th. There is nothing currently constraining the line's capacity south of those points -- which is fine, since peak ridership is between 137th and Times Square.
There are no alternate south terminals. All local service must go to South Ferry. (Turning some trains through the old loop is impractical and quite embarrassing.) Before anyone suggests sending some locals to Brooklyn, capacity in Brooklyn is already constrained by the braindead service pattern through Rogers interlocking.
It is not as though we want to run 90 second headways, and rebuilding South Ferry is fix that will allow it.
No, but we might want to run 30 tph, either now or at some point in the future, which the current South Ferry will permit. Current service tops out at (scheduled) 20 tph, which I can say from personal experience is inadequate (trains are more crowded than NYCT rush hour loading guidelines call for; dwell times at each local station are upwards of a minute). Do you really think it makes sense to spend $400 million (even of somebody else's money) to reduce the capacity of an overcrowded line by 20%?
But that's beside the point. Why is NYCT afraid to present the facts at a meeting along the busy part of the line? (Each station between 42nd and 96th is busier than South Ferry, and since the busy stations are clustered together, the many passengers who use them have to share space.)
Would this allow a higher number of TPH over the busiest section or would turning some trains short foul up the line?
With the local tracks outside the express tracks, there's nowhere that locals could possibly turn between 96th and Chambers.
If the Cortlandt shell had been built as a three-track station with two platforms (like Whitehall), that would have been our answer. But it wasn't.
"Turning some trains through the old loop is impractical and quite embarrassing."
But anything beats a theoretical upper limit of 24 tph in that actual practice may yield poorer results. Poorer results than the present in terms of service to the upper west side? It would not surprise me if Rector St. becomes one of two south terminals for the 1. And decades from now CBTC signalling installation will be put in to bring service levels to what they could handle with the old loop.
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
Just one last question:
What was the font used for the stop names? Trying to get the font exactly right has been driving me nuts!
Thanks,
Julian
You mean this kinda thing?
(Here's a small preview):
New Trains:
(T) Second ave local: Bedford Park Blvd-Hanover Square, all times
Second ave express: 125th St and Broadway-57th St, 5am till 10pm, weekdays
(S) 125th street shuttle: 125th st and Lexington ave-125th st and Broadway, rush hours
(U) 3rd Ave local: ??? in Bronx to Grand St, all times (express in Manhattan, local in Bronx)
(P) Broadway Local: Whitehall St-125th st and 2nd ave, rush hours.
Julian
:Second ave express: 125th St and Broadway-57th St, 5am till 10pm, weekdays
Sorry about that,
Julian
I used "Small Font" either 7 or 8 point. The problem is when I upgraded to XP, Small Font changes a bit for either size.
Basically...try drawing a line with each circle... then type different kind of font/size to see if you like it (make sure it is readable) I know, it's time consuming but give it a try!
Michael Calcagno
I'm still having old "Smnall Font" If you want the font file i can mail
it to you. Do you think the maps are canditates for map section of
nycsubway.org?
Yeah I noticed the lines are thinner.
I still have the same SMALL FONT file as the new one so it doesn't make any difference.
Do I think your maps are candidate for nycsubway.org ... that's not for me to answer. However, as I said before ... I encourage you or others to ask David Pirmann if he can post your maps on his website ... that's his decision totally. I'm just like you, I'm also a contributor of my maps to his site for all to enjoy.
Good luck,
Michael Calcagno
N Bwy
N Bwy
N Broadway
N Bwy
N BWY
N/W Broadway
N Bwy
Firstly I think that there should be a key (legend), explaining such things as the following:
1. The meaning of a double line (as on the #6, the #7 and the D),
2. The difference between black stations (local) and white stations (express),
3. The difference between black numbers and gray numbers at stations (black means full-time, gray means part-time service).
Secondly, you have separated the expresses on three-track lines, which adds clarity. But if you do this on three-track routes, why not on four-track routes? That should make things even clearer and it would convey more important information. [In many cases the presence four tracks may be inferred from the presence of both black stops and white stops, but if this is the rule it is not always clear where the four track line segment begins and ends.] However if you cannot find enough room to draw separate full-time local and express lines, I don't think you should draw separate part-time local and express lines.
I am not clear about which stops are local and express. For instance the #4 runs express in Manhattan but local in the Bronx, so should the #4 Bronx stations be shown as local (as in your map) or express (as in Michael Calcagno's map)?
Thirdly, I don't see any need to show line numbers and letters beside lines, as on Manhattan Bridge; the small line numbers at each station can and do tell the whole story. If you use line number symbols they would better be confined to line terminals.
And finally here is one small detail: on the Metropolitan Avenue (M) line, I don't see why any stops are shown in white.
The official MTA subway map is open to most of the same criticisms as these!
I used Mike Calcagno'S map and start making a fantasy map out of it.
When i tried to add SAS there was no space and so i redraw it with
this design. On my fantsay map the (M) is a Brooklyn peak express and
so had the (M) express stops. When I made the previews i only replaced
the south of the L and forgot the rest. Update is in work, hope on Monday
it's ready.
The 4 haves in Bx on the MTA map local stops and so i've done it also on
my map.
I have some friends who are all thumbs ... have been getting them to paint them red, black & blue
Had things been better planned, it might not have taken as long to work on the Lady in Red. These are learning experiences. I'll do things differently the next time around.
There are some small items that still need to be worked out, but I'll get to it as time permits.
-Stef
-Stef
-Stef
-Stef
How are the door chimes for Nancy coming along?
Here's an R-9 question: how many of those circuits protected by cab breakers are trainline? When rousing a 10-car D train, for example, did you have to turn breakers on in every single cab? Did you also check the side destination signs to make sure the right ones were backlit? I know you have to set the reverser to forward for them to light up.
How about a race to the old swimming hole thru the farmers field strewn with cow flops ?
When prepping, you'd check each cab and make sure that all breakers were set, check for tripped ones and find out why they were off. So yeah, you checked the whole train as part of your preps, the momentary kicked on the heat where required, and you'd check and note if your side signs were there or not. Rare was the situation where a pair was "flipped," and if so you'd check the cab in the #2 end, insert key and correct it.
The more important thing though was checking the floor and making sure the handbrakes were released or it could be a VERY bad day. :)
But if the wrong sign lit up, you DID have to "key it straight" in the affected car.
In all seriousness though, in school car, they told us them was breakers and NOT to click the springy thing and open it up.
And what is that?
-Stef
-Stef
Regards,
Jimmy
????????
Hey, Flash: The members who ride on the RT cars don't pay anything else just to ride the cars -- they're members after all! Now, if someone wants to be piloted down the line in the cars, then there is a special fee...so don't make it sound like the RT crews run the cars w/o regard to the 'power spike'.
But don't go today, the brochure says the only two days they are closed in the period are Christmas and New Year's Day.
Regards,
T.L.
(Housewares....)
It would be difficult because one would have to either reload or use two revolvers.
What about bullets that aren't used, like the blue K, the yellow S, and the green 8? What happens when they start using them? Do they have to pay YOU royalties?
The following line bullets have been applied for: 2, 6, E, F, G, N, although for the present, they've only applied for them as in use for passenger services. Ditto F and 1 above.
For the registered marks, a typical registration reads like this: "G & S: Clothing, namely tee-shirts, sweatshirts, tank tops, caps, socks, ties, jackets and underwear."
So you get the idea. I really would worry about this. Trademark Law general requires them to defend their mark, if they get wind of infringement.
Secondly, its like no one has anything positive to say here. If want anything from the store, be my guest and buy, if not just don't say anything. That is the problem in this board, everyone spends more time find fault than saying "Good Job" "Good Luck" or anything positive.
Thanks to those with positive comments and positive wishes
Regads,
Trevor Logan
TransiTALK Transportation Media Group
www.cafepress.com/transitalk
Or, "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure."
You need a photo permit, obtained from the MBTA's Marketing Department office at 10 Park Plaza (State Transportation Building); open weekdays 9-4. The permits are free, and they are valid for six months. The receptionist who handles this is extremely friendly, and is happy to help railfans who want one. Just remember -- no flashes, no tripods.
No, you must go in person.
Think about it for a minute. If there's rust, which one of the three is the only choice?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Chuck Greene
Is it something that would be appropriate to describe on Subtalk?
1. Within the city, from about University Center/Mt. Royal to Convention Center station, which probably spans about 8-9 city blocks, I can always walk faster than the light rail.
2. MTA Maryland has non varying 20 min headways on all their light rail lines, no matterwhat the time or day. On Feb 1, they are planning to cut down their weekend service to 30 min headways, which I think is going from insane headways to very insane headways.
3. The light rail vehicles board from street level but have steps to climb up on, which slows down the boarding process
4. Single tracking in some areas
5. Sunday service begins at 10AM
6. Many of the stations outside of the city are located along the side of a road and hidden from view.
7. Within the city, the vehicles always get bogged down by red lights. Signal preemption would help this system dramatically.
MTA Maryland's light rail system is a joke.
Re: 5. Sunday service begins at 10 AM:
I was flabbergasted last year when I arrived at Baltimore Penn Station around 8:30 via Amtrak from Philly and learned that the service wasn't even close to starting.
The only proper use of a bus is as a feeder to a rail line. Period.
Chuck Greene
Unless you mean rapid as in bus versus commuter/intercity rail or subway, in that case there's no doubt that the latter is faster. If a trolley or trolley bus or even a regular bus has to travel in a lane which is shared by car traffic, it can only go as fast as the speed of traffic allows.
"Why?"
"Because the streetcar controls the traffic, whereas the traffic controls the bus (at that time trolley busses). The bus looses control when it pulls over to the curb and has to fight its way back onto the traffic lane"
Chuck Greene
How many times do we have to go over this?
Firstly, a trolleybus is not in any way limited in freedom of lateral movement by it's wires, it can encompass 3 lanes, provided the wires go down the center lane. Certainly that is plenty, since there are few roads wider than that, and I can think of few scenarios that would find a bus having to detour into either the fourth lane, the shoulder, or on-coming traffic. Remember, this is Philadelphia we are talking about, the Philadelphia police and PA state police at much more apt to just close an entire freeway or roadway in the event of a major accident than let traffic creep by on the other side of the road.
And of course your assertion that "my hands are tied behind my back flexibility-wise sometimes with a ... trolley bus because your vehicle is completely stuck above an overhead and it cannot manuver around freely unless theres a overhead or rail crossover nearby." is completely false, as the picture below demonstrates:
The trolleybus in the foreground with the red express sign has clearly experienced a mechanical failure, prompting the local to have to pass it. With the express's poles down, there is nothing to prevent the local from passing, it's one lane clearance with it's pole is plenty to keep it from sideswiping the dead express. No switching equipment was needed, no tow truck was needed to pull the local around the stalled express, and the (on these ETBs, nonexsistant) batteries never needed to be used. The total delay for the passengers on the stalled bus would be no more than that for a dead diesel bus, for the passengers on the local passing the dead bus, maybe a minute delay while the B/O made sure he wasn't going to sideswipe the unfortunate express. Remember that on a narrow city street an OOS diesel bus, unencumbered though you claim it to be, could very easily pose every bit the problem an OOS ETB, Chestnut Street in Philadelphia is just one street that'd be choked by a D40LF or Neoplan Artic laying down and dying there.
Now, admittedly a trolley or LRV would be in considerably more dire straits should it find itself in a similar situation, however I can tell you that it is remarkably simple to rectify. I've now seen a good dozen malfunctions on SEPTA's Subway Surface line that required the removal of a non-functioning vehicle from service, most of them were remarkable uneventful. In all cases a trolley behind or in front of it (usually behind) would lock couplers with the misbehaving trolley and push it either to the nearest siding, spur, or even to 49th St depot, should that happen to be the closest place. Most of them were over within 5 minutes, before even 2 following trolleys could pile up behind it (this is of course assuming it's on the main trunk, between 49th and Woodland, where the 11 and 36 meet and 13th and Juniper, the loop terminal for all five lines). Only one of these incidents resulted in a long delay, that being when 9088's brakes locked at 13th and Juniper and clogged the entire line. There most of the delay was due to incompetance on the part of the crew, there is a spur at the end of the platform and it would have been easy to shove it in there and fix it there, but instead they decided to fix it where it died, 100 feet from the spur.
Of course modern LRV lines with crossovers and spurs located at more convienient spots, with lines configured for limited single tracking when a train on the other track goes OOS are even better suited to dealing with such an occurance than an older trolley system like Philadelphia or Toronto.
Of course the last part of your post, the 'trolleys don't work in a modern city, blah blah blah' part, is as much BS now as it was 50 years when National City Lines was taking ad space on TV and Radio to blather about the same issue. SEPTA's subway surface lines are living proof that that hypothesis has been, and is currently, false. So long as the service is frequent enough, and the penalties for parking on the tracks stiff enough, then there is no reason that a trolley cannot do at least an equal job of moving people as a bus, and given it's electric propulsion and frequently higher capacity, it will do a better job. Also in the 1940s, philadelphia had a system that provided every bit the routing flexibility our bus system currently offers.
If every line in philadelphia were trolley, then the routing flexibility would at least be equal to that that our buses currently have. I would recommend that you check the Toronto Transit Commission track map for their streetcar department located here. That system supports 11 routes, and as can easily be seen, provides for ample rerouting capabilities, only slightly fewer than a bus system would allow.
Unless he finally goes to jail first. Then eddie can do a bail-out or help out for some more voter support.
Reasons to go to jail, involving high level fraud and theft, a short teaser of just two reasons:
If you want any area rezoned to put up a business or anything else done, you have to contribute to his campaign fund Via White, or else you will be kicked out of the city.
Street's definition of disadvantaged minorities who get favorable contracts to run vendors in stadiums:
Only if you're black and have a giant house in the 'burbs making $1500 a week, but you know the admin personally, so you dont' need to complete any paperwork.
and fast forwarding, the man's a disgusting racist, listen to his quotes. It's a little thicker than giving his family members 200k a year jobs. Even the good ol' boy system isn't that blantant.
What media source has been brainwashing you for the past 5 years anyway that the man hasn't done anything wrong?
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
Just out of curiosity, I wonder how many of these alleged illegal activities were perpetrated by Street himself, and not just lesser people in his administration without his knowing.
Street had some huge shoes to fill following Eddie, but I wouldn't really consider him any worse than previous mayors from Goode on back. Philadelphia politics can't come up with anyone better to run, and many Democrats in Philadelphia (myself included) aren't huge fans of Street.
I got really pissed off in 2001 when they sent an settled at the last moment. I mean the SEPTA Strike is a Triennial tradition here in Philly. Oh man, that 1999 strike sure brings back memories...like when picketers blocked the NEC at Cornwalls Heights. And that union leader with the bad teeth always on TV.
I don't remember any problems in the regional rail lines during the times I took them though, to my surprise. Always expecting a sympathy strike. Unless I'm thinking of an earlier strike.
Let's hope they settle without another fare increase. It was six years between $1.60 an $2.00 even. Hopefully, they'll avoid bumping the fares up again, and also avoid any major shutdowns (They even TOUCH the Spur, and their heads will roll!)
For those interested…
The building of the Luas light-rail system has been ongoing for several years now. No start date has yet been announced. Currently, the system consists of two distinct routes, Line A between Connolly Station and Tallaght (on all new alignment) and Line B between St. Stephen’s Green and Sandyford (which is on the original Dublin, Wicklow & Wexford Rwy. route).
There is a pictorial of the progressing work at: www.allaboutbuses.com/luas
Official site: www.luas.ie
(Ironically, Luas means “speed” but the top speed of the trams is under 45 mph. Happy New Year to all…)
About as ironic as the "rapid" in NYC rapid transit.
Well, by NY subway standards, that would be fast indeed.
Capacity:- The basic 30 metre tram can carry up to approximately 235 persons - 60 of whom will be seated. Tram extensions and frequency can be combined to offer a wide range of line capacities.<<<<<><<<<<<<<<<<<
Alstom makes some of the most beautiful trams in the world. I ride the Hudson Bergen light rail and those Citadis trams put my trams to shame! I can assure you, those tram extensions will be needed once the system is up and running.
The tram is fairly low off the ground which is why you don't want the driver to speed over 45mph! An accident with a motor vehicle could do an extensive amount of damage.
The only thing I regret is the system seems to run within the transit system already established and now expend beyond the Metro system.
Today’s Houston Chronicle has a bunch of articles and pictures.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I dont' get these editorials though talking badly about the left-turn situation at the medical center. Green arrow, GO into left turn lane, Red X means get out of the way. What's the problem? No wonder 4 out of 5 accidents were SUV's I guess.
Anyhow, I'm hoping for an Amtrak rail sale for feburary and no unplanned expenses. :)
"There was also difficulty for people trying to get on trains at the central portion of the line because the trains were already packed with people.
One Metro authority said theye are considering extending the free rides today because of the big turnout.
Metro has buses running to shuttle people back to where they get on the trains. "
I'm surprised they didn't lay down on the tracks to ruin the grand opening also.
Seriously, apart from the transit, Dallas has very little going for it. Flat as a pancake and competing with LA for the sprawl award.
If you want scenery, go to Austin. It’s really nice around there.
That's exactly how I felt when they opened up the Hudson Bergen Lightrail. Bus service in Bayonne is horrible during the weekends, evenings and holidays. Yet the lightrail is operational every day of the week with a 15 minute headway tops! There was a time when I wanted to move away from Bayonne but not anymore. The lightrail really gives me access to all parts of the city every day of the week including evenings. The Houston lightrail will change their lives and if you look at ridership for the HBLR, it will start off slowly but increase as the time goes by. I have no doubt this Lightrail will be successful.
>>>>>John Sedlak, a Metro vice president who oversaw the line's construction, said the trains "are going to bring people to public transit that have never used it before." <<<<
The motorist in Houston are in trouble. The motoring public will have to face and ever growing population that is sick and tired of paying for automobile transport and now their tax dollars will HAVE to be allocated in providing tram service. The days when Standard oil could dismantle trolley lines are over. The lightrail is the wave of the future and it's coming on like a steamroller!
It's about time.
Red labels=Bway-1-Line.
Blue Label's=Lenox-3-Line.
Yellow Label's=Pelham-6-Line. 1731 was originally assingned to Pelham.
Don't forget "it's," "sticker's," "their," a couple of spelling errors, and misuse of single-quotation marks. P.S. 248 needs to hire some English teachers ;).
It's not a school night :)
#3 West End Jeff
Maybe they just ran out of adhesive purple duct tape.
Like so:
If the idea is to induce people to leave their cars at home or at park-n-rides, and ride the rail system to their jobs, shopping, or entertainment, wouldn't it have made a lot more sense to put the money into a rail system that travels down the middle of the area freeways (e.g., as done in Chicago along the Kennedy and Dan Ryan Expressways), such as the I-610 Loop, Southwest Fwy., I-10, I-45, etc.??? This would help ease traffic a lot more than a trolley that reduces the availability of much-needed vehicle traffic lanes on a city street.
All the present system does is to connect Downtown with the Med Center and Astrodome areas. This seems barely to put even a Band-Aid on Houston's traffic problems. It would makes no difference whatsoever in the lives of the many people who live and work away from that route, especially outside the I-610 Loop.
And if they were adamant about putting the line on a busy, traffic-choked street as a means of relieving congestion, why didn't they start with Westheimer (especially outside the Loop), which is undoubtedly the most heavily jammed east-west route besides the I-10 Katy Freeway?
I believe Portland's MAX does exactly this, and as far as I know, the MAX is a huge success
I'm not sure anything about that park and ride area, That'd probably tbe the only place where, if it was my origin, I could see using it as a commuter system, those medical centers, downtowns, and possibly service workers for the stadiums and such are area's of high employment.
The just passed expansion plans seem ok. The thing is though, as these types of systems attract development, they make downtown a more in-demand area. More employement and housing. The core starter system will see more use.
As far as putting a band-aid on traffic is concerned. The system will never reduce congestion and traffic. Nothing ever will. Car's have a steady growth rate every year. If people move to LRT and car usage grows, it actually evens out, with LRT gaining usage, and net highway counts being the same. I understand this to be the situation in Portland. And without it, all those people will be on the road until what I call meltdown happens.
Besides, in sprawling cities, I doubt most people live within 7 miles of their work anyway, which was my first thoughts. But I would definately reposition myself to benefit from the system.
By the way, thank G-d for the preview screen. I must have screwed up the html for that post 5 times!!!
LOL!
Happy New Year!
My next poll will be:
How many o's is proper amount in MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!?
Click here for the answer.
Question: What do you think of this thread?
Response: It downright sucks.
Not even SubTalk related. Now go play in traffic on Broadway.
LEDs for lunar? I haven't seen that yet, other than on pedestrian signals where they're not packed closely. Do you have any pictures? (I'm not picky, I don't care what signal or system.)
Mark
Sean@Temple
Did you take fotos? I love looking at pics of drunks. :-)
Chuck Greene
Doris Roberts, who played the mayor's wife, is also still with us.
Dick O'Neill, who played Frank Corrall, died a year or two ago.
Also, Walter Matthau reportedly took the role of Garber only because he needed the money to cover gambling losses.
Pelham 123 got me hooked on Walter Matthau.... so by the time Grumpier Old Men came out,
too bad, he was still "Garber" in my ojos.
John Godey [novelist]- ???
Peter Stone [screenplay]- D. 2003
Walter Matthau [Lt Zachary Garber] D. 2000
Robert Shaw [Bernard Ryder a.k.a 'Mr Blue'] D. 1978
Martin Balsam [Harold Longman a.k.a 'Mr Green'] D. 1996
Hector Elizondo [Joey Welcome a.k.a 'Mr Gray'] alive
Earl Hindman [George Steever a.k.a 'Mr Brown'] D. 2004
James Broderick [Denny Doyle the Motorman] D. 1982 (yes...father of Matthew)
Dick O'Neill [Frank Correll] D. 1998
Lee Wallace [Al, the Mayor] alive
Tom Pedi [Caz Dolowicz ] D. 1996
Beatrice Winde [Mrs Jenkins (the tower person?)]- ???
Jerry Stiller- [Lt Rico patrone] very much alive
Nathan George [Patrolman James] apparently alive [has 2003 credit in the IMB]
Rudy Bond [Phildelphia Police comissioner] D. 1982
Doris Roberts [Mayors wife]- very much alive on 'Everybody Loves Raymond'
Tony Roberts [Warren Lasalle] alive...only his career is dead...
see what happens whne you are bored?
No information on Julius Harris, who played DCI Daniels. Even IMDB has no information on his birth date.
Dave
- CityTicket is valid only on Saturday and Sunday.
- CityTicket is valid only on the day of purchase (too bad; I was looking forward to "stocking up").
- CityTicket must be purchased at ticket windows or ticket machines.
- CityTicket cannot be purchased on the train.
- LIRR CityTicket is not valid for travel to/from Shea Stadium or Belmont Park (because those stations are open only for special events).
- LIRR CityTicket is not valid for travel to/from Far Rockaway (because those trains travel through Nassau County).
- Metro-North CityTicket is not valid on New Haven Line trains; for Fordham, use the Harlem Line.
- CityTicket is valid for direct travel only; you cannot change directions at junction points (e.g. a trip from Rosedale to Flushing requires a change of directions at Woodside and thus counts as two trips).
- Limited refund policy: within 30 days, with $2.00 (!) service fee per ticket!!
- No free transfer to/from subway or buses.
Even if the restructions themselves aren't that onerous, they're presented in a way that might well discourage use. (Hmmmm....)
Sorry buddy, you're the one who should take a look at a map
Far Rock is in the West Nassau fare zone (4), not the East Queens zone (3). FR already has the A train. SE Queens is served by LIRR zone 3 (Laurelton, Locust, Rosedale, St. Albans) and will benefit from CityTicket. What you cannot do is e.g. FR <--> Rosedale on CityTicket, but then, you cannot do so on regular fare either.
Boston's MBTA has in-city commuter rail fares from $1-2.50 (soon to $1.25-3.25)-about the same cost as the subway.
If they were serious about this, they should:
- make it valid 24/7 (or at least M-F 0930-1530 and 1830-end of service and all day Sat and Sun) and payable by PPR metrocard - put readers at the stations which will debit $2.50 and print out a ticket
- have a special unlimited including LIRR/MNCRR
- keep the no purchase onboard thing
- merge zones 3 and 4 and therefore allow Far Rockaway and Belmont Park
- stuff the Special Event balls and the New Haven balls
- allow a free transfer to Subway/Bus and a 50 cent transfer from Subway/Bus.
An unlimited CityTicket for some duration of time would be AWESOME.
And yes, they don't call me "big shot" for nothing. Thank you for stating the obvious.
No it isn't, and it won't be for about 8½ months.
:)
Bill "Newkirk"
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
From Penn station the trains use the Empire connector it climb a steep tunnel at west end of Penn station to cross over Hudson tunnels and LIRR yard lead.
after that the tracks follow the former west side freight line towards north tip of Manhatan.
at west end of Harlem river the track crosses the river at Spuyten Duyvill Bridge and joints the Hudson Line at CP12 just north of Spuyten duyvill sation.
And you don't need overseas posessions to be an empire. The American Empire is greater than any has-been empire over which the sun has already set.
Aha!
And you don't need overseas posessions to be an empire. The American Empire is greater than any has-been empire over which the sun has already set.
America's a Republic, not an Empire. I guess on the colonies score, Iraq kinda counts, but it's not part of NY state.
Any state that has a stupid part of land that makes no geographic sense can be considered an Empire State. These would include MI, MO, CT, FLA, OK, etc.
A Spitting Devil!
If you're the sort of person for whom LIRR seats are designed, you're neither right-handed or left-handed, being a quadruple amputee (not to mention a midget and an anorectic).
So it's o.k. for public facilities to be 100% right-handed??
However, as a lefty I have never had much trouble inserting cards into slots with my right hand - it isn't a task that requires great dexterity (or sinisterity!) to do, so one can do it with the "wrong" hand quite easily.
Since all us lefties are asked to do is swipe/touch our cards, I think we can manage that with the “other” hand!
I thought all the toll plazas had booths that opened both ways between each of the lanes, so they can be turned around and used for entry or exit as the flow requires. Are you sure this isn’t the case?!
If you are not the majority of people, why should special concessions be make for you that would piss off the rest of us?
But yea, maybe he can clandestinely switch the lefty desk with one of the regular desks.
Assuming that 10% of the population is left-handed (which is broadly correct), the chance that a class of 35 has at least one left-hander in it is about 97.5%.
Most people have more than one finger. When using a conventional mouse I use a different finger for each button.
Campaign for the real left!
Seriously, I have found it easier to learn to use a regular mouse in the regular way, with the result that I can use most peoples’ PCs (and, usually, fix them for them). My own main PC is an IBM Thinkpad, with the little red Trackpoint between the G, H and B keys. I have grown to love it, and wouldn’t buy a laptop with just a touchpad!
The problem with customizing your PC, is that it very definitely becomes Personal, and will infuriate anyone else trying to use or fix it!
LOL!
Now there's a sentiment not likely to go over well just about anywhere!!!!
My advice: Deal with it.
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
If you prefer, turn around and walk backwards.
When did you attend school? 1925?
I'm an ambilateral left hander (can use both hands for 99.9% of tasks except write!) According to the International Left Hand Society, if you write left, you are!!!
My wife is a monolateral left-hander, who does everything left handed except use the mouse. Our computer desk is so cramped, the mouse has to go on the right side. She has no trouble using a mouse right handed anywhere now.
When motoring a streetcar, the left hander has a slight advantage - the controller is operated by the left hand, brake by the right.
Right handers starting in training will instictivly grab the controller handle with their right hand the first time and have to be gently corrected.
We all live in a right-handed universe. (Science has observed that the universe seems to have a right hand bias.) Leftys learn to cope.
"Which (according to a source I read) forcing a monolateral left-hander to become a righty is a cause of habitual stuttering."
This is widely believed, and I think there is some objective evidence for it. King George VI of Britain (father of the present Queen Elizabeth II) was a stutterer - which caused him great difficulty as he had to make many public speeches - allegedly because he had been changed over from left-handed to right-handed in his youth.
I started school in 1948, when George VI was alive and his problems were well known. I am left-handed, and my parents deliberately sought a school that would give an assurance that they would *not* try to change me over. Incidentally I use a mouse with my left hand at work, where I am the sole user of my machine, but with my right hand at home, because I share the machine there with the rest of the family. And I have no problem with London Underground's right-handed turnstiles!
That's just because of the way we define things like electric current. If we defined the direction of electric current as the direction in which the electrons move instead of the direction in which mythical positive charges move, every physics student would be learning the "left hand rule".
Why should someone else "deal with it" just because YOU don't have a problem with it? Everyone in this world is different. Learn to recognize and respect that, buddy.
"Learn to recognize and respect that"
Thanks for saying that because that's what I need to do in life. Learn to recognize a person and respect their decisions.
That's not what I meant. I was referring to the fact that people are different, which you just said you now recognize.
To all of the left-handed people including you Sir Ronald of McDonald. I typed that quote as an example. I'll make sure that won't happen again. Why, because I'm here to voice my views, opinions and comments about the subways, not to start arugments with others. Before making a post, I'll make sure it doesn't offend anybody.
Being left-handed is being just a little bit disadvantaged: many objects are sided, and we live in a right-handed world, from sugars all the way up! So lefties learn to cope, the usual result being that most of us are ambidextrous (ambisinistrous?!) to a greater or lesser extent.
It’s not like we really need our own set of facilities! The only left-handed implement I own is a pair of Fiskars scissors, where the angled thumb and finger-holes allow me to cut very comfortably with my left hand.
It has equal handles (no "thumb hole) and the blades are ground so that it cuts equally well no matter which hand is used.
No more right hand only.
We have Fiskars, Fuller, and two non-branded ones, all equal handed.
"Left handers are the only ones in their right minds."
LMAO.
One of the blades is on top of the other. Is the blade on top controlled by your thumb? No.
The difference is that the thumb pulls up. If the blades are pulled together, great; if they're pulled apart, good luck.
The same scissors work in the right hand. These are conventional X-shaped scissors.
And I can cut just as well with either hand with the same set of scissors. I don't see why left-handed people always complain about scissors.
Left handed standard scissors are "backwards" for a right hander and won't cut for a righty.
Equal handled scissors have blades ground so that they cut properly regardless of which hand holds the tool.
Equal handled scissors don't have a "thumb hole".
So it will probably be a little easier and faster (less mechanical coordination) than swiping the current metrocard, but us lefties are still going to be the disadvantaged ones!
I think they have a such thing where you don't need to take anything out, like security doors, and the system detects "you" and opens a door or unlocks it or whatever. But that application couldn't work.
Just hope they don't go to fingerprinting. That would be awkward for you guys to use your right fingerprint. :)
There was also one time when I had to use a card and hand geometry. That was a low speed entry!
http://www.outdoorsystems.com/psub_price.html
http://www.viacomoutdoor.com
I have always loved and admired NYCT advertsing since I was a kid, from movie posters on station walls, to Budweiser ads in cars, to NYCT "Subtalk" public service announcemts.
My NYC Photos
2 question...on the first page, what is that sign for on the bottom of the 10-car marker at 59th St, and why the curatorial incorrectness of 8506 at the museum(on the 2nd page, i think)?
Thanks
Jeremy
As for the museum, the proper rollsigns were stolen.
and there are no other rollsigns to replace the ones in 8506? i noticed a few of the route signs on the front of the cars were misrepresented too...
Sad note...i overheard a conversation between 4 young adults..they were looking for the MOD cars...and they were wondering about the redbirds and why they weren't there...one of them thought they remembered something about them "being pushed into the water somewhere" - they thought that was cool...
boooooo!!!!!
NYC Photos
Click.
And this.
Click this too.
And don't forget to click this one.
Are you opening the files or are you downloading them and saving it onto your harddrive? If you rightclick/save target as, maybe there could be a better chance of getting the whole file.
The only options I have are cutting the files down or compressing them as zips and sending them via email to those interested.
Hope you enjoy the sounds.
Here's the rundown of the new fares:
Blue, Red, Orange, Green line: $1.25, up from $1.00
Bus: .90, up from .75
Silver Line: .90, up from .75
Commuter Rail cash/ticket one-way fares $1.25-6.00, up from $1.00-5.00
Full fares available at www.mbta.com
www.forgotten-ny.com
Fri by appointment, Sat-Sun 9am-4pm.
A great train ride through an old sugarcane plantation. About 25 minutes each way in historic cars pulled by a diesel switcher engine. Kids love it. Call ahead to make sure the train is running on the day you want to visit.
And there is a trolley in Arroyo that claims it is part of this train. Does anyone know if this trolley actually runs on former El Tren de Sur tracks?
"No se apoye contra the door"
Regards,
Jimmy
*********************************************************************
Hot Times on the High Iron, 3 December 03.
Today we are really going to do something different.
I receive lots of mail from many of you kind readers. Most of the notes are
friendly, while some offer corrections or revisions to subjects I have
written about. I also receive a few hostile ones here and there. Some of
the letters I receive often contain ideas for topics to write about. Others
send questions about various items. They may include questions about
specific railroad topics, general railroad topics, personal preferences and
the like. So I've decided to gather a bunch of them up and address them all
so that everybody can share the answers. That and it saves me from having
to write the same responses over and over again.
I will not use the names of those who have asked, I'll just post the
questions. Besides, some of the more threatening or hostile ones are being
investigated by my team of "consultants." Ya that's what I'll call them, my
consultants.
Q: "How many railroads have you worked for?"
A: How many are there? Actually, it would be a much more simple question to
ask which ones have I not worked for? The real answer though is ten.
Q: "Which one is my favorite?"
A: That depends, there have been good and bad things about them all, but
some have had far more positive points than others. If I was forced to
choose though, I would have to say MoPac as that is where this little
journey all started and where I attained my promotion to Engineer.
Q: "Which one is my least favorite?"
A: If I really had to choose I would have to say the South Shore.
Q: "What is your favorite type of train to run?"
A: Intermodal (trailer and/or container) trains are the best as you usually
can operate closer to track speed and often have plenty of power. Empty
unit grain and coal trains are some of the best to handle as there are so
many options available to you with regards to train handling. Loaded unit
trains like coal, grain, potash or taconite are good as they are uniform in
their loading and braking throughout each train. That is not to say they
all handle the same because they don't. They are just less of a challenge
than a mixed manifest train with loads and empties scattered throughout.
Q" "What is your favorite locomotive?"
A: For years it was the SD40 series. These things can really pull and have
been very dependable workhorses for years. The SD70 series has become a
favorite. Now for yard service, the GP15 series has always been a personal
favorite. These and their MP15 series cousins have always been good
performers.
Q: "What is your least favorite locomotive?"
A: Any four axle General Electric (except the U18B) and any Alco. Four axle
GE's are absolutely atrocious riding units, what I refer to kidney killers.
On bad rail they are even worse. As for Alcos, I have never operated one
that ran well or was comfortable. While railfans and some Engineers like
them, most Engineers I know never cared for Alco products and have the same
complaints about them I do. Also, a running joke refers to their Alco
acronym derived from its corporate name of American Locomotive Company as
really meaning Always Leaking Coolant and Oil.
I leave the U18B out of the GE four axle group as they all had different
trucks than the bigger units and rode much better, like a Geep.
Q: "What is the biggest train you ever handled?"
A: This is a two part answer as there are numerous variables involved. With
the advent of the articulated car and the modified twin cars (those that
were once two separate cars now mated and connected with a rigid drawbar
and counted as one car), this can make true car count a little inaccurate.
The articulated cars may be two, three, four or five units all counted as
one car. This car may be anywhere from 90 to 380 feet long.
So for as far as car count, the most cars was 195. The longest was 13,700
feet.
Q: "What was the heaviest train you ever handled?"
A: 20,128 tons. It was a 99 car loaded ore train that we added a bunch of
loaded grain and lumber to. When it was all totaled up, I had 166 loads, 10
empties and some 9000 plus feet. I had four, Burlington Northern & Santa Fe
Dash 9-44C's to pull it and the train actually ran and handled quite well.
Of course when you have plenty of power to pull it around, the chore of
handling it becomes pretty good.
Q: "Must you sound the whistle in the middle of the night?"
A: Yes, if I have to be awake, so do you. Actually, Federal law requires
that I sound the whistle. Should I fail to do so, or fail to do so in the
required manner and collide with a motor vehicle, there is massive exposure
to lawsuits and possible criminal charges. Believe me, my job and financial
situation are far more important to me than the sleep somebody who chose to
live close the right of way gets or doesn't get.
True it is loud and can be annoying for those living along the tracks, but
my attitude is that the railroad was there first. In most cases the people
who chose to live there knew there was a railroad when they moved into
their home or apartment. This is the same logic as with those people that
move near a busy airport or along an interstate highway. If you think
hearing the whistle is annoying for you, imagine having to listen to it at
112 crossings each and every day when it is right above your head. That is
some 448 sounds of the whistle.
Q: "Do you agree with no whistle laws enacted in many communities?"
A: Absolutely not. Unless there is some sort of barrier that totally
prevents motorist and pedestrians from bypassing the warning devices, I
need that whistle as my last line of defense to protect those that are not
only breaking the law but placing theirs and my lives at risk. I am also
trying to protect them from their own ignorance. Most of these no whistle
laws state something to the effect of "Whistle shall only be sounded in the
event of an emergency" which is very vague. Define emergency for me please?
Is it when I am just about to collide with a car? Would it be when a
motorist is driving around the gates as I approach, even if I am a quarter
of a mile away from the crossing itself and closing in? Or is it at the
point when a collision is inevitable? This leaves the decision totally at
my discretion and more often than not, the local authorities and the
neighbors are not going to see the situation in the same light as I.
And yes, I have been at odds with law enforcement people over this issue
when the situation has occurred.
Q: "Do you like the ditch lights on the locomotives?"
A: Yes, they are a great safety feature that the FRA was far too slow to
make mandatory. They have been around in Canada for many years prior to
their requirement in the US. I always wondered why they were not required
here sooner. They add a tremendous amount of light after dark, and they
make for much improved visibility to the public at all times.
Q: What about Mar (oscillating) lights?"
A: I always liked the Mars light as it really made an approaching train
stand out in the darkness. However, they didn't offer much, if any benefits
in daylight hours. With the addition of ditch lights to the locomotives,
most, although not all railroads that used Mars lights have since removed
them as they have become essentially redundant.
Q: "What is/was your favorite rule book to work under?"
A: Of all the rulebooks I have worked under throughout the years, I prefer
the NORAC book. It is very clear and concise and has traditionally been
more conservative.
Q; "What type of signals do you prefer?"
A: Again, a multifaceted question. I always preferred the speed signals
used most often in the Eastern US than the route signals used most other
places. With speed signals the aspect displayed tells you exactly how fast
you need to be operating. Route signal aspects tell you the route you are
using. The special instructions in the timetable tell you how fast to
proceed.
As for different types of signals, I always liked the old Pennsylvania
Railroad position light (PL) signals and the Baltimore & Ohio color
position light (CPL) signals. The PL type signals really stand out much
better in inclement weather as the amber colored lights tend to cut through
the fog, rain and snow better. And even if one of the bulbs should happen
to be burned out, you can always positively ascertain what the aspect
displayed is.
The CPL signals, while using different colors to correspond with their
aspects, still can easily be determined even if one of the bulbs is burned
out. Their only drawback is they don't cut through the inclement weather as
well.
Q: What method do prefer better, track warrants or train orders?
A: Track warrants as they are less complicated and quite concise. They are
also far easier to copy on a moving locomotive than train orders and
generally take less time to copy and repeat.
Q: "What do you prefer, the standard control stand or the desktop model?"
A: I prefer the standard control stand. It is a far more practical and
versatile design. The desktop model is not comfortable to anybody over 5
feet tall. The design has a panel that slopes down at an angle from the
front of the desktop to the back of it right where you put your legs.
Should you want to sit close to the controls you have to lower the seat
significantly so as not to smack your knees against the panel. Then you are
sitting like a little kid down very low and you lose forward visibility.
They also have the controls set up backwards from the standard control
stand. It seems that nobody who is required to use them on a regular basis
was ever consulted with in regards to their design.
Q: "What do you prefer working, freight or passenger?"
A: Freight.
Q: "What do you prefer, the road or the yard?"
A: The road.
Q: "Which does the beautiful bride prefer you work?"
A: None, she would prefer I struck it rich somehow and didn't have to go to
work at all. Of course, I agree with her on the latter portion of this
answer. I believe I could become accustomed to the independently wealthy
lifestyle. Now she prefers I work the yard.
Q: "If you had the chance to do it all over again, would you have gone with
railroading?"
A: Absolutely. Again though, if it was either this or that wealthy thing, I
would choose the cash instead.
Q: "If you had to leave the Locomotive Engineer craft and do something else
on the railroad what would be?"
A: Signal Maintainer.
Q: "What is the likelihood of your ever becoming a railroad official again?"
A: Extremely unlikely. That is not to say it won't occur, but I have no
plans or intentions to pursue this avenue again. Now while I'll say never,
I will say not likely ever.
Q: "Do you see a day when the Locomotive Engineer will be alone in the cab
on most through-freight trains?"
Yes I do, and I believe it will occur before I call it a career.
Q: What the SD such as in SD40 stand for?
A: Special Duty. These are six axle locomotives.
Q: What does GP such as in GP15 stand for?
A: General purpose. These are four axle locomotives. The term "Geep" is
used instead of saying G-P.
Q: What has been the worst experience of your career?
A: My collision in Antioch, IL back in 1989 with the automobile that left
three teenaged girls dead.
Q: What has been the best experience of your career?
A: My promotion to Locomotive Engineer in 1981.
Q: Do you think remote control will ever fully replace the Locomotive
Engineer?
A: I hope not, although I believe the industry will try no matter how many
problems they have, how much money it costs or how much business they wind
up losing over its use. With all of the problems being encountered, the
wrecks that have occurred and the damage done with remote control operation
and with all of the things that have the potential to go wrong (and often
do), I don't see unmanned trains as a safe alternative for the human
factor.
Q: What does the 645 or 710 mean when describing the diesel engine (prime
mover) in a locomotive?
A: These numbers represent the cubic inch displacement of one cylinder of
the engine. As a comparison, if you have an automobile with a 350 engine,
this equals the total cubic inch displacement of all of the cylinders, not
just one like a locomotive. Now most locomotives are either 8, 12, 16 or 20
cylinders. So you would take that 645 or 710 number and multiply it by the
total number of cylinders on that particular model of locomotive to equate
the total cubic inch displacement of the diesel engine.
Ya it's really big.
Q: What is your favorite brand of locomotive, EMD (Electro Motive Division
of General Motors) or GE?
A: EMD. I tell people I run really big Chevrolets for a living. While GE
has made significant improvement in their locomotives over the years, I
still like the EMD's better. And it still upsets some folks when I tell
them that GE should have stuck to making toaster ovens and washing
machines.
Q: Where does "And so it goes" come from?
A: My favorite writer and fellow Hoosier, Kurt Vonnegut, Jr. Way back in
high school I was introduced to Mr. Vonnegut's work when I had to read the
required "Slaughterhouse Five." In this outstanding novel the line "And so
it goes" was used quite liberally. I liked the sound and feel of it and
quickly adopted it as a quote for various situations in my personal life.
Then in the early 1980's, the National Broadcasting Company began airing a
news show late at night called "NBC News Overnight" which at first was
hosted by Linda Ellerbee and Lloyd Dobbins. Later Bill Schecter replaced
Mr. Dobbins. I was a huge fan of this program and watched it religiously.
At the end of each broadcast, one of the hosts would read an editorial and
close it with this same "And so it goes." Linda Ellerbee wrote her
autobiography and also titled it "And So It Goes." Oh yes, I've read it
too. I have tremendous respect for Ms. Ellerbee, her work and her values.
Back when Overnight was still on the air, a dolly I was dating at the time
was watching it with me and when she heard the infamous line used to end
that evening's editorial and also close the show, she jumped up and said
"Hey, they stole your line!" Had to explain that like me, the Overnight
hosts actually pirated it from Slaughterhouse Five.
With that we draw this session to a close. Keep those cards and letters
coming in folks.
And so it goes.
Tuch
Hot Times on the High Iron, ©2003 by JD Santucci
A post script, I have a birthday happening this week, so I may very well
not get around to writing a column up for next week. Depends on how much
time I have left after all of the celebrating, or maybe on how hung over I
am on Monday morning.
They also have the controls set up backwards from the standard control
stand. It seems that nobody who is required to use them on a regular basis
was ever consulted with in regards to their design.
Dutchrailnut is a passenger engineer who is comfortable with the AAR control stand. IMHO, the AAR stand is superior for freight operations where there is more backing up and switching of trains by the road power. I couldn't imagine switching with a desktop. but I guess it all goes to the equipment you are used to and most freight engineers are used to upright stands. My vote would be for the AAR stand.
My post should have read:
Dutchrailnut is a passenger engineer who is comfortable with the Desktop control layout.
It's all a question of what you're trained on, and what you're used to. In an MU yard, there is just as many backup moves as a freight railroad. The problem is that over the years, they have found that it is safer not to back up instead just change ends. And over the years MU operators seem to have also lost the skill of backing up with radio assistance.
British Rail enginemen did switching with the equivalent of a desktop control stand (in fact, the EMD variety as installed in class 66 locos). This is not to say they are more skilled. They were trained different, and they can do switching safely with a desktop control stand.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
However the MTA redeems them at $2.
Anybody who tries this scam deserves some sort of award for stupidity.
Peace,
ANDEE
That would make sense, since they were bought at $1.50 each.
Bill "Newkirk"
The TA wouldn't redeem any Roosevelt Island tokens anyway.
BTW - Is there some kind of law of something that a Transit Authority must refund the cost of a no longer used token, since the passenger already bought the token (paying the fare) and was never used ? This would prevent the Authority from telling people to toss the tokens.
Bill "Newkirk"
Yes they would. They're the same tokens.
You could do the reverse by riding the Tram for $2 using a token you paid $1.50 for. I wonder if any R.I. tokens wound up in NYCT turnstiles ? They must be the same diameter and thickness.
Bill "Newkirk"
Yes, they are the same diameter and thickness.
Picture of last New York City Transit token:
Picture of last (current) Roosevelt Island Tram token:
Brain fart.
Token 1
Token 2
Token 3
Token 4
Token 5
Peace,
ANDEE
Sorry - that's NOT fraud - I call it arbitrage!!
Too bad it won't work because the TA is only redeeming them at $1.50 but I am thinking of hoarding a few for resale on eBay 10 years from now.....
avid
What I wanted to know is whether this is part of a general rehabilitation of R-62(A)'s or if car 1590 had been damaged?
Thanks, and Happy New Year!
Bob Sklar
Robert
#3 West End Jeff
til next time
David
#3 West End Jeff
By the time SubTalkers could raise enough money to buy all those new seats (for almost 1,150 cars), the cars will have been replaced and their replacements probably will have been replaced.
It's just not worth doing.
David
#3 West End Jeff
I'm guessing "D of B" was referring to the idea of using the seats from the cars the R-62/62A were replacing. Problem with THAT is, almost all of those cars were built with soft seats -- the backs of the replacement hard seats (which were installed due to high vandalism, which wasn't the case with the R-62/62A) didn't meet the "cushions." That, and the seats on the old cars weren't cantilevered -- they rested on floor heat enclosures, and I don't know whether they could have been adapted easily. Plus, the seats and backs would have had to be repainted -- nearly all were dark gray, and the rest were coral. Don't know if anybody in Car Equipment even thought of the idea at the time, but it sounds like a lot of work to me.
David
(I just found the typo.)
R62 1391 at Union Square, December 28, 2001
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=630367
David
I've never been on it, though I did see the Silver Line buses in action.
It means that you are on the wrong forum. I recommend the Bustalk forum.
However, in summary, BRT is the bus manufacturers’ retaliation to LRT. A repeat of the National City Lines fiasco of the 1930s/40s and later decades, but not on such a large scale. If you do an internet search and look up Bus Rapid Transit, you will come across buses that resemble LRVs – which is the same tactic NCL, GM, White and Mack used when selling their replacement bus setup versus the streetcars (note that the earlier buses resembled PCC streetcars).
So last night, after he went to bed, I took the set out and, after much thought and false starts, managed to build a layout using all the switches, tracks and overpasses. To make it more interesting, I ran both engines simultaneously in different directions. Each had one non-powered trailer attached to it.
After a two-hour session, ending at midnight, I observed the following firsthand and note same for the future.
1) It takes more power for a train to round a curve than to go straight, because train wheels always want to go straight. It also wears the wheel flanges more quickly. I suppose this was the thinking behind the IND system construction [on a MUCH larger scale, of course ;)] where there are far more straight runs than on the IRT.
2) As a corollary to the above, the sharper the curve, the more wear on the engine and flanges and the higher likelihood of a derailment.
3) Tracks leading to ascending tracks and away from descending tracks need to be as straight as possible for as far as possible before the tracks start to rise/lower. This is because a train needs to gather speed to go up the incline and speed can't be gathered easily while rounding a curve. (See the F and G trains heading up to Smith-9th St.)Similarly, gravity and the "pushing" weight of trailing cars going downhill work to involuntarily increase a train's speed while descending. Thus, tracks leading away from descending tracks must be as straight as possible, as the placement of a curve immediately following a descending portion of track increases the possibility of derailment. In order to avoid a derailment, additional engine and brake wear are required. On the other hand, straight trackage following a decline in trackage enables a train to move more smoothly and with a lower possibility of derailment.
Of course, these principles are obvious to all of us but its interesting to see them in action.
Anyway, part of this post is a goal I am trying to achieve, and it might be this year:
A TRIP TO L.A. TO RIDE LAMTA WITH ALL THE WEST COAST SUBTALKERS, INCLUDING SALLAM, FRED AND WHOEVER ELSE WE CAN HOOK UP WITH.
Not a bad idea. Stay tuned!
It could have been nasty. Is this tunnel always like this, New Year's Eve?
Conincidently, I met up with Mark and HopeTunnel last night in the restaurant while I was with my mother.
I wish you luck in Nathans, might be a bit too cold down at Stillwell to eat there.
Regards,
Jimmy
Jimmy ;D
Then go there. But the rest of us want to eat at a kosher place, so you'll probably be all alone.
K car? He's the BMTman, not the PATHman!
As in Kreisler "K" car?
Peace,
ANDEE
UMM, that's common knowledge.
Peace,
ANDEE
Regards,
Jimmy
Peace,
ANDEE
I'll stay with Kool-D's plan. Going to the beach in the dead of winter isn't exactly a well thought-out plan.
If you want ambience in the place, forget it I am most concerned about the food than the looks of the restaurant. As long as the place is clean that's all I care about.
As D-Day (whoops I meant D Train) approaches closer, I will fill everyone in on the details. There is a bus that can take us direct from Stillwell to Famous Pita. I assume all of us will ride the D train all the way to Stillwell, then we can pick up the B68/Coney Island Ave bus there.
For Stillwell opening in May, then it's obvious that Nathans will be THE place to eat there before or after the opening gala.
Then say so.
Peace,
ANDEE
nyuck nyuck nyuck - yes, I enjoyed eating my raw kosher Marshmallow Fluff with a spoon, and then I stuck the spoon on my nose. This was all during a House Meeting, mind you.
Regards,
Jimmy
In any event, if the weather will be nice on Sunday afternoon, perhaps I'll skip the nocturnal first train in exchange for a comprehensive walk and ride back and forth during the day. Will the north side bikeway be open? If so, I might walk over, walk back, ride over, ride back, etc.
subway.com.ru
Did Flushing Ave/BMT and Prospect Park/BMT Brighton finally made it to the accessible stations page?
As of December (1-implied), 2003, that was absolutely correct.
(D) Coney Island/Stillwell Av (accessibility closed
due to elevator rehab until May 2004)
Jumping the gun?
Thanks,
Mark
or call:
212-638-7622
I just ordered it.
Mark
Not available at: GCT Info Booth or TMS
Yes available at: 96 St (Broadway) at the northbound side booth.
Is Sutphin/Archer still called Sutphin/Archer?
I assume the Q weekend reroute via Lower Manhattan is no longer included.
I just thought this was funny.
I'll try to get it so that it's suitable for the Web (i.e. file size) and let you know where and when to get it.
If anyone is willing to host the file, let me know.
Or post to that place that we post to :-)
na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na
Electroliners, Streamliners, Subways too, and then there's the Chattanooga Choo-Choo
Amtrak trains are never on time, Redbirds on the Flushing Line!
What is that, that steaming thing?
I guess it's time for the railroad rap.
Come on ya'll let's hear the railfans sing!
Listen to the railroad rap!
4-4-0s and RDCS, Canadian National and TGVs.
Pennsy and its GG1s and don't forget Thomas he's number one!
What is that, that steaming thing?
I guess it's time for the railroad rap.
Come on ya'll let's hear the railfans sing!
Listen to the railroad rap!
High speed freight on the Nickel Plate, last name Shelley, first name Kate.
20th Century Limited speeding down the track with steam coming out of its smoke stack!
What is that, that steaming thing?
I guess it's time for the railroad rap.
Come on ya'll let's hear the railfans sing!
Listen to the railroad rap!
Listen to the railroad rap!
Ok, its done. I know that was cheesy, but it was fun to make. I hope you liked it.
Chuck
I was diggin' on The Man
The Man was diggin' on me
And if it's the IND, the BMT, or the IRT
It's all the same to me ...
- The Last Poets
I also find something else: The amount of FLAMAGE is inversely proportional to the amount of heated, but civilized arguments.
The cure for flamage is not to complain about, but it's to have arguments about interesting topics. If you don't like flamage, be prepared to argue against someone else's point, even if you really agree.
You've noticed that SubTalk has been kinda lean on interesting topics. Not too many people are interested in history, so the same topics get repeated over and over, "What is your favorite...?," "What is on the latest edition of The Map?" "What will the service on Manhattan Bridge be Like?" "What Services Will Run on the Second Avenue Subway?" "What Will Replace the R160s in 50 Years?" "Should SUV Drivers Be Killed, or Merely Tortured?" "Happy {insert-holiday] to all Subtalkers," "[insert-SubTalker-Handle] is a [cretin/communist/fascist/gay/stupid/on my killfile]" "TRAINS ON THE 5 LINE ARE SWITCHING FROM THE LOCAL TO THE EXPRESS TRACK RIGHT NOW!!!!!!!!!!!".
And my personal favorite: 76TH STREET! (Sloooowly I turned, step by step, inch by inch.....}
Turpentine or benzene ? Either ! (A bottle of ether is uncorked) ...
We are now ready to paint the body !
And I thought I was actually going to see an equation, giving the number of reply posts an inflammatory post will generate, as a function of such "independent variables" as mentions of race, four-letter words, unenforcible imperatives, unsupportable statements, derogatory epithets, similar to Carl Sagan's equation for estimating the number of (pun intended)intelligent races in the universe, given certain observable quantities as inputs. Silly me !
I suppose SubTalk, like nature, abhors a vacuum (to borrow from Aristotle) and, consequently, crap rushes in where quality and substance fear to tread, or post (to borrow from Alexander Pope).
How can I qualify as The Crown Prince of Arcana ?
Also, I had Abbott and Costello in mind, but I love the Stooges' routines as well. :)
Do you remember the Maharani of Franistan from "I Love Lucy" ?
How about Laurel and Hardy, Mack Sennett, Buster Keaton, the Keystone Kops ?
No, but I remember Princess Takamatsiya on "Your Show of Shows."
How about Laurel and Hardy, Mack Sennett, Buster Keaton, the Keystone Kops ?
Yes.
By the way Paul, since you mentioned you like Abbott and Costello, maybe you should try my Bud & Lou quiz!Click here for it.
Am I the only person who liked Shemp?
No, my daughter is working on becoming the Sultaness of Mathematical Ephemera and Non-Romance Languages Written with Cyrillic Characters. So maybe you should try the bizarre trivia route. :)
Probably because the newspapers don't belittle their readers. Who posts information with bellitlement?
Poppycock, I say! Flamage is the natural result of lack of patience toward moronic posters with innane points of view (or something like that).
Reads like you're working with physicist Brian Greene about the connection between string theory, chaos theory, fractal geometry, and SubTalk flamage and off-topic posts !
Either that or just drinking heavily!
Why am I not surprised? Of all people to complain about the actions of the flamees instead of the flamers.
I don't know, porkster. Maybe you should try to enlighten us.
Shouldn't you instead say poopycock?
Tickets go on sale at 12:01 a.m. on Saturday through 11:59 p.m. on Sunday and must be used on the day of purchase. A grace period allows you to travel until 4 a.m. Sunday or Monday morning for tickets purchased on Saturdays or Sundays respectively. Check the appropriate schedules to determine if service to your destination is available.
Except for New Years Day, the grace period to use City Ticket on Metro-North is 12:15 AM southbound and 1:30 AM northbound.
It's about time MNRR restored overnight service -- or at least till 2:30. Lots of late nighters must be inconvenienced by that last-train-at 1:30 (or 1:20 for the Hudson line) garbage. It was only cut back as a way of closing GCT at night so they could evict the homeless. There must be a better way to deal with that. Anyway, closing at 2:30 wouild still allow them to close the terminal.
Let us know what the response is!
David
So who's left? People who aren't regular subway riders who want a faster trip in the City, some railfans, and City people from, for example, Little Neck or Rosedale who already take the LIRR to shop or go touring but will now get a price break.
AirTrain users could also benefit, if they're even aware of it.
I don't have much use for eastern Queens, though.
Ride on 27, nuff said..... although this bus is mostly used, because it it quicker than the Bx15 and Bx41... and it's the only real "rapid transit" near Fordham on weekends(not counting MNR)
Yet it IS VALID on Harlem MNR at the FORDHAM Station.
Guess it's all a game of color stripes if you get on at FORDHAM.
A good guess is that they couldn't (or didn't bother) negotiating details with the State of Connecticut on how to handle this, so the course of least resistance was for New Haven Line not to participate.
- Fordham technically serves the Harlem line
- Fordham is only used as a pick-up point for Connecticut-boung New Haven trains and a drop-off point for GCT-bound New Haven trains.
- You are not supposed to get off at Fordham if you're on a Connecticut-bound train, nor are you supposed to board a New Haven GCT-bound train at Fordham. If you do, and the C/R comes around for tickets, you will be charged for a ticket to/from Mount Vernon East, the first real stop on the New Haven line, which is $1.25 more expensive (peak) than a Harlem line ticket between GCT and Fordham.
So that's why City Ticket does NOT apply on New Haven line.
IIRC, that rule originated with the Connecticut Department of Transportation. My guess is that it had something to do with the MTA-ConnDOT cost-sharing formula for the New Haven Line.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
When the IRT subway opened in 1904 the NY Times briefly considered using it to deliver newpapers (the former Times building is just above the 42st local stop) but it was not convenient or efficient when trucks could pull right up to the loading docks then bring the papers right to the newstand door.
Even Chicago Tunnel Company, which had no passenger service to interfere with, never really had much success as a carrier of general freight and express. Especially in its later years, its trade consisted primarily of ash removal, a low-value carriage in which the truckers were not greatly interested. Its demise in the late Fifties resulted largely from the gradual elimination of coal furnaces in Loop office buildings.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
This is not to say that there's no place in NYC for more freight service. I'd love to see a freight line driven across SI and South Brooklyn to the JFK area, for a new intermodal freight center. A large freight yard there could supply Brooklyn and Queens with all the goods they'll need, removing any need for freight to flow through manhattan or the Bronx. It would also ease the flow of freight into and off of the rest of Long Lisland, and with JFK right there, provide an easy tranfer to air freight.
But then, I haven't really studied this idea very much yet. Seems like a good one on paper, but I have few facts to back it up.
The thing is, it's doubtful that a company would go through the process of shipping something by air, then transferring it to train, than transfering it to truck, so rail freight at the airport may not be such a great idea.
The current freight railroads use either the Hell Gate Bridge or the NYRR carfloat to access NYC and Long Island from the mainland. The SIR North Shore branch would be reopened along with the Arthur Kill lift bridge, allowing freight from NJ into NY. The line would have one track over the Verrazano Narrows Bridge (only one vehicle lane lost) to link to Brooklyn, eliminating car floats. In Brooklyn, the new line would connect with NYA/LIRR, and CSX/NYA/CP/PW at Fresh Pond, Queens.
Ah, pipedreaming. So much fun!
Considering the likelihood of this ever happening, I'll say Futurama-esque people-tubes.
It would never be able to handle the grades on the bridge approaches.
BMT Boxcar in service just this afternoon. :)
BTW, I hope you had a Happy New Year, TD.
New years was great! Hope likewise for you.
At one time, more non-passenger traffic was carried on the subway.
Newspapers were delivered via the system, and both privates,
IIRC, had brief experiments with "express" parcel service.
About the only thing that would make sense is mail and parcels from the airport(s). This would require Airtrrain sidings in the air freight area, Airtrain access to the subway, and sidings in Midtown and Lower Manhattan to take the stuff out. A lot of investment for the level or return.
Also, deep-bore tunnelling wouldn't allow for as much flexibility with express and local tracks and future expansions. The slightest capital improvement (i.e., installing a switch between two parallel tracks) would be a massive undertaking. London's Tube is nice, but it's severely hampered by its inflexibility and lack of expansion capacity.
Lastly, having cut-and-cover stations means quicker access to/from the street level. Imagine having to take the (1) train from Columbus Circle to 86th: You'd spend several minutes going down a huge escalator, a couple minutes actually riding the train itself, and then several more minutes going up another huge escalator. Your travel time would probably be almost tripled for short trips like that. Deep-bore is much more suited for systems like the DC Metro that have longer distances and faster speeds between stations.
(I'll concede that Chicago's subways are mostly deep-bore and manage to serve their purposes well. However: 1) There's only two subway lines, and 2) They're much shallower than London or DC -- easier to do when the whole city is pancake-flat -- and Chicago has much different geology than New York. Chicago is on mostly hard-pan clay, while Manhattan is mostly solid granite.)
Peace,
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
Also, all of those pictures of the maze of utilities is concentrated to the small area of lower Manhattan. When the original IRT, BRT/BMT and even much of the IND were built, they were in relatively undeveloped areas.
I got a news flash for you. Washington DC is not "just mud and sand" Everything between N Street NW to Pooks Hill Road on the A Route Red Line is in bed rock with the exception of the roughly 900’ 274m section under the Rock Creek valley. Everything from about 300’ 91m north of the tunnel portal north of Silver Spring B08 to a point south the double crossover on the south end Glenmont B11 on the B Route Red line is in bed rock. The Potomac River tunnels are in bed rock and the tunnels south of Rosslyn C05 on the C Route Blue Line as well as the tunnels to the west to Court House K01 on the K Route Orange Line.
There is a significant amount of cut and cover. All of the K Route Orange Line west of Court House is cut and cover. All of tunnels on both Blue and Yellow lines in South Arlington and in the City Of Alexandria are cut and cover with the exception of the tunnels south of Pentagon C07 under the Henry G. Shirley Memorial Highway VA I-395. All of the tunnels on the Blue Orange lines C Route under I from 13th Street NW to the west end of Foggy Bottom C04 are cut and cover. All of the tunnels on the A and B routes Red line from 15th Street NW to New Jersey Avenue NW are cut and cover along with the all of tunnels north of Grosvenor A11. The tunnels under the National Mall on the Blue Orange lines D Route are cut and cover. The pocket tracks north of Farragut North A02 and Mount Vernon Square E01 are cut and cover. All of the tunnels on the Blue line G Route extension now under construction are cut and cover, alone with a number of short segments scattered around the system.
There are significant sections that are shield bored tunnels in soft soil, but they defiantly are not the majority of the tunnels in the system.
John
If New York had a lot of deep stations with long escalators, would NYCT's record with respect to escalator maintenance and repair be as disgraceful as it is now, or would necessity force competency? I haven't a clue.
Maybe, maybe not. BART in the San Francisco bay area has escalators (and elevators for handicapped only) at every station, and they had a terrible record of escalator maintenance (at least in the mid-90s, I don't know what the situation is nowadays).
This is a very valid point. In London, it often isn't worth doing a short journey by tube even if you have an unlimited ticket (provided the weather is good), because it is as quick to walk as to take a escalator down, wait for a train, ride the train for say five minutes, and then ride the escalator up again.
Another point: when was the escalator invented? The original London tube stations from the turn of the twentieth century had lifts (elevators in American). Lifts have a lesser carrying capacity than escalators, which is why lifts survive only at lesser-used stations in London. Maybe escalators didn't exist when the original IRT was built??
1901. Escalator was a brand of Otis Elevator Company. The word was invented by taking the Latin scala for stairs and combining it with elevator.
The word escalate came from escalator, not the other way around.
I invented the word eclinator, to describe a moving ramp.
I like "eclinator". When they were installed at Bank station in London, quite a few years ago now, to serve the Waterloo & City Line platforms, the name given to them was "Travolator", which may have been a trade name and certainly sound American to me. Eclinator seems a much more elegant term.
Consider also that either you have to build and engineer multiple tubes, or else bore huge tubes for 2, 3 or (yikes) 4 tracks. Double the diameter of a tunnel, and you quadruple the volume of the tunnel.
Finally, a deeper tubes adds costs - elevators/escalators to access, plus the extra time spent by passengers going up and down (and for elevators, waiting for them too).
closer to the surface is cheaper both to build and use, plus other problems like when there is a fire. I will admit that the deeper tubes make better bomb shelters however.
Less of a problem if you stack the tracks. The area above, below, and to the sides can be used for service equipment and emergency egress. A deep tunnel is probably better for long express runs than for anything else.
Maybe they should bore a bigger tunnel for the SAS just for the heck of it, unless it would make it more difficult to get over and under things. How much more volume for stacked tracks vs. two tracks, given that one dimension (side to side) is the same?
Three or four track bored tunnels are not practical. Even two-track tunnels really drive up the costs. Even though the miscellaneous extra space can be used for systems (more true with catenary) there are other cost factors. It is much harder to ventilate a two-track tunnel, especially for fire/smoke control. You want to minize the face of a tunnel bore. There is a cost benefit to running two single-track bores in NYC. You pay for support crews regardless of the TBM operation so while one TBM is down for maintenance, the crew is at least useful while the second machine is running.
For soft-ground TBMs large diameters require huge amounts of torque and power. The precast concrete liner segments become very heavy and hard to manage and place easily. The advantage is that the face is so large that many maintenance operations, such as cutter wheel and drag bit replacement can be done through individual air-locks as opposed to men entering compressed air in the cutter head chamber.
--Mark
London is well suited to tube tunnelling because it is built on clay. Nevertheless, it isn't always the cheaper option. While cut-and-cover disrupts surface traffic more during construction, even tube construction causes some surface disruption. Shafts for ventilation, the disposal of spoil, and delivery of materials have to come to the surface somewhere, and of course station sites have to be excavated. I remember well the years and years with the steel "umbrella" over Oxford Circus during the construction of the Victoria Line in the 1960s.
I agree that nothing shows up over dark red. Red is the color our eyes have the biggest trouble seeing, and it is also the most upsetting because it looks like blood.
There are none.
I disagee with that, The standard color as delivered for most of the fleet from at least R16 thru R30 (except R29) was a very dark green. The grayish color was not from the green disappearing, but from the build up of dirt and steel dust from lack of washing. The same thing happened to the original "Redbirds," the R29s. In a matter of months, they began to turn the same color as the rest of the fleet.
--Mark
Current equipment is silver because it's stainless steel, not because they decided silver was a good color. For a while they tried mimicing the stainless-steel-and-blue scheme on LAHT equipment, but it looked sort of flat.
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
Not only that, but the very first Redbirds were actually painted with a special graffiti resistant formula "loaned" from Fern Rock Shops.
The principles involved are right, too. David Gunn worked with a gentleman named Steve Stitsworth of SEPTA to produce the original materials, and it was they who brought the tried and tested strategy to NYCTA. Steve has unfortunately passed away since then but is fondly remembered by many.
Note that the Redbirds had every detail identical to the old "classic" Broad Street cars: maroon body, silver roof and black trim.
The maroon was actually started in 1981 as part of what SEPTA then called its "QC" (Quality Control) program. What it was was really heavy-duty composition floor paint, with a formula modified to adhere to previous coats of paint and resist foreign elements like brake dust build up, grime and graffiti. Cars in the "Graffiti-free" fleet were repainted and kept together.
One other way the graffiti was eradicated quickly was cutting train lengths from 5 cars to 4 sometime in 1981-82. This allowed a number of less reliable old cars to be retired and enabled the B-IVs to replace more old trains quicker than otherwise. This strategy, too, proved useful during later applications in New York.
Smart fella, this Gunn guy!
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
1) Corrision
2) Grafiti
It's not just the color that resists - it's the actual chemical properties of the paint.
Regards,
Jimmy
Remember, this is weekends:
A: 207 St (maybe 168?)-CPW Local-8th Ave Local-Fulton St Local-Lefferts
B: 168 St (maybe 207?)-CPW Local-6th Ave-West End-Coney Island
C: 205 St-CPW Express-8th Ave Exp-Fulton St Exp-Rockaways (split or have Rockaway Park served by shuttle)
D: No service
Give Concourse and Rockaways their expresses, and give Washington Heights and Lefferts their locals. Advertise the whole "C saves only 3 minutes thing" to Washington Heights. All trains every 8 minutes?
On Rush hours:
A Local
B Local
C Express
D Express
If the "R68s only" policy is that important at Concourse, then the C will just have to get them.
Constructive comments welcome. That is, nothing about which letter is which, or about the song "Take the A train."
Personally, I could also imagine, because I believe there must be a switch track somewhere, that A trains could run express, for example from 125 to 96, then switch across, and D would run express from 86 to 59. Of course, this requires a whole lot switching, so in the final analysis, I'm sticking with A,D express, C local just like the weekend service they've had for about 70 years.
It's not like having just any two locals because I specifically asked for the Concourse train to run express and the two Washington Heights trains to run local, because the Concourse riders have a longer ride and Washington Heights at least has the 1 at 168th to fall back on, even though they'd only lose three minutes by having both of their lines running local.
Since there is a #1 option, there's no need for an extra local. Things should be kept the way it is.
N Bwy
N Broadway Line
Regards,
Mark Valera
Chuck Greene
--Mark
The Penn-Bay State (#182)
Penn Station 10.00
New Haven 11.40
Providence 2.02
Boston South 3.00
2003 schedule:
Northeast Direct (#172)
Penn Station 10.30
New Haven 12.08
Providence 1.56
Boston South 2.45
Wait, actually, this saves almost an hour compared to the previous schedule. But why is it still soooo slow? Notice how almost no time is saved between Penn Station and New Haven? In fact, some trains have a padding at New Haven because MNCW's timekeeping is so terrible...
AEM7
Unless a new rail technology were adopted -- which it can't without dedicated regional rail, and you're the one who thinks commuter, freight and regional should share rails -- then speed is completely dependent on the skill of T/O's and schedulers. Those are old, hand-craft, hand-me-down skills, and they're dying off.
*Pulls out my National Association of Clecrical & Technical Workers Card* Now look carefully on the dotted line where it says "Trade Craft". It reads "SCHEDULER", doesn't it? Oh by the way I am 24 and a graduate of the class of 2000 (College, not high school). So much for old skill dying off huh?
Oh wait, you ask Jersey Mike, train scheduling is such a non-skill that I got bored with it within a year and I'm still kicking around looking for a more interesting job. Just to let you know how these skills are being passed on -- in my British Rail days, we ran operational planning seminars in each of the Regions (at the time they were funded by Railtrack); just two years ago Paul Reistrup headed a TRB Railroad Capacity Workshop in Washington D.C. which was attended by literally hundreds of planning professionals. Old skills dying off, eh? Maybe when you've learned the craft you can tell me that it's dying off. Look around and see how many train regulators there are out there still, and operations specialists. Perhaps fewer in number than asphalt engineers, but they're out there -- they just need to be paid and have their job classifications restored.
So what's your point? Hand dispatching, trains were always fast, and the infrastructure is maintained in the field. How could there be any progress?
I think I was alludiung to the fact that the "progess" on the New Haven Line has been retrograde. MNRR has congestion issues today that it did not have before. While the Shore Line getting faster and faster, it cannot mask the fact that MNRR is getting slower and slower and less predictable by the day. Run time from Boston to New York is still in the 4 hr 30 mins range with 1 hr 38 mins burned on MNRR.
Oh, and before you say that's why you need a new by-pass, may I remind you that 45 minutes -- yes a MERE 45 MINUTES is burned between Providence and Boston. That's MBTA territory where the Amtraks have to duck between commuter trains on 3-track and sections of 2-track infrastructure. MNRR has 4-tracks (with one short section of 3-track) between New Haven and New Rochelle. THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR IT TAKING THAT LONG!
By the way -- the reason the MBTA territory could be traversed quickly is no accident. They did it up with CTC and ATC when they did the whole Acela thing, paid for by the Feds. Yes, MBTA did have to bless this, and they were cooperative; after all, they do own the ROW all the way from the Rhode Island border. What has MNCW done for Amtrak lately? It's not like there has been a lack of Federal money to be spent in CT.
AEM7
I guess I'd have to see, say, Caltrain vs. Amtrak to compare. Or why France kicked the locals off the tracks and Britain didn't, and Britain is having so much performance trouble.
But I want to see an overall doubling or tripling of Amtrak trains on the NEC. And I've played with a four-train hourly schedule from New Have (the current is three per direction) that can be doubled with no change in pattern to eight in peak hour. GREAT service attracts profitable traffic. Why continue to put up with adequate service and shoehorning three types of traffic together, and never make a profit, just because the current method of signaling has always worked. Okay, so it ain't broke. Fix it anyway.
Excuse me. France did not kick the locals off the tracks. France built new tracks for high speed trains to run on. The routing of the expresses and stop locations is every bit as controversial and politically charged as the routing for the B&O thru Maryland, and 150 years later, the routing for I-95.
Oh, and the new high speed tracks are so crap (for example, they use split two-block ties) that there is an axle load limit on the TGV lines of 12.5 tonnes per axle. Just to put that into perspective, that means the standard Amfleet would need eight axles (or D-D trucks) to run on TGV lines.
and Britain didn't, and Britain is having so much performance trouble.
How much do you really know about Britain's performance problems? Do you know what's causing the current performance issues right now? Do you know about railroad congestion and the relationship between scheduled runtime and on-time performance? Do you know the effect of automated data collection on performance reporting?
But I want to see an overall doubling or tripling of Amtrak trains on the NEC.
Why? The current trains run with consists between three and seven coaches, and they are rarely full (except at Thanksgiving and Christmas time). In fact they are rarely even loaded to beyond about 35% of total capacity.
GREAT service attracts profitable traffic.
So why did the Concorde fail to attract profitable traffic? Hell, it failed to even attract SIGNIFICANT traffic.
Why continue to put up with adequate service and shoehorning three types of traffic together, and never make a profit, just because the current method of signaling has always worked.
And just how exactly would you handle the repayment on the loan you took out to build the new infrastructure? Think you can do that out of the operating profits?
AEM7
Probably the significant problems could be summarised as capacity limitations in the following areas:
1) Birmingham New St
2) Leeds City
3) Cardiff Central / Caerdydd Canolog
4) Manchester Piccadilly (through platforms)
5) only 2 tracks Borough Mkt Jct - Metropolitan "C" Jct
6) only 2 tracks on the lines from Birmingham to:
- Coventry
- Dorridge
- Longbridge
- Wolverhampton
7) Single track between Coventry and Leamington Spa
8) The Birmingham Snow Hill - Wolverhampton route having only been reinstated as light fail
So why did the Concorde fail to attract profitable traffic? Hell, it failed to even attract SIGNIFICANT traffic.
Concorde didn't provide a great service, or even a significant one: no-one could afford to ride it.
I started downtown, got on an R-142 5 train at Wall St. I was headed for 51st to look at the Citicorp train exhibit. Well, I got to 14th Street, and just as the train stops in the station, I notice the door to the side platform is open! I immediately got off and took a pic on my camera phone, which I will post online if I ever figure out how. A minute later an R-142A 6 pulled in, and I took it to 51st.
The train exhibit was excellent, as expected. There was a pretty significant line, but it moved quickly. I THINK I might have seen some Subtalkers there - I was wearing a throwback Braves hat if anyone saw me. Anyway, after looking at the exhibit, I had an idea. I had never rode the G or the Franklin shuttle before, and I had to be at Union Square in about two hours. So I railfanned to kill some time.
I took an R-32 E one stop to Ely, then transferred to the G. Although it was an R-46, I did manage to see quite a bit just looking out the side windows. One thing that really surprised me about the G - it's fast! The train really moves quickly, even though it's a local. I took the G to Hoyt-Schermerhorn, then transferred to the C (R-32), which I took to Franklin Ave.
The shuttle was quite a different experience than riding most trains. It is certainly the only place in the city where trains operate on single-track bridges over streets and on top of buildings. Although the entire line was redone in 1999, many remnants of old remain. In several places along the line, there are stacks of cinder blocks leading up to the street, presumably old staircases. In addition, in the area between Franklin ave and Park Place, the ROW is still wide enough for two tracks, except over the bridges themselves. Despite these remnants, the MTA did a truly impressive job with the renovations.
I got off the shuttle at Prospect Park and took an R-40S to Manhattan. I got off at 14th Street with still about 30 minutes to spare. Overall, it was a pretty cool experience, one that I will surely repeat with other parts of the system I haven't seen yet. The Bronx IRT, Rockaways, and Inwood lines are all on my list.
Did the unusually bright lights at Bedford-Nostrand surprise you in any way? Some of my friends were railfanning the G line several months ago and both were surprised at how well-lit that station was, considering it was only a local stop and that it wasn't even renovated.
When did they extend them back to six? ::feeling very confused::
If they went back to six car trainsets, surely I would have heard it here a long time ago...
If Eat Fresh saw a 6-car G train...he may have traveled back in time to 2001...
FOUR.
Eat Fresh, either you got lucky, or you've simply miscounted. NO six car G trains to be seen.
--Mark
--Mark
"Interlocking Signal - Yellow Over Yellow Over Yellow (Yard Lead)
Yard Indication Signal. Proceed With Restricted Speed and Extreme Caution Expecting to Find The Track Occupied"
There you have it!
A) On non-mainline track, it is a call-on that doesn't require
one to use the stop release lever. The track between the signal
and the next signal (or the end of signal control) is expected to
be occupied.
B) On the mainline, it is used as a "third route" indication.
At the location in question, the train has a choice of
proceeding straight to 2nd Ave, going over the Manhattan Bridge,
or going to Essex St. Since there isn't a second home signal
to govern the route, the least-used route gets the triple yellow.
I'm not sure how the current rulebook deals with situation B,
i.e. whether the motorman has to proceed under restricted speed
rules. Unless things have changed, that "BJ" connector track
has continuous track circuits and is main line track, even
if there hasn't been scheduled passenger service over it in years.
I believe if the track ahead were occupied, the home signal would
not clear and a call-on (R/R/Y) would be needed to get the arm down.
A train on Sixth ave, must be on B3(EXP)TRK entering W4 for the Manh Bridge(when open) via B3 B/Laff and Grand st. A train on B1(LCL)TRK entering W4, and subsequently B1 at B/Laffayette, Has the choice of B5/6 TRKS at 2AVE, the V terminal, or B1 and on to Bklyn, the F route, or the BJ1 TRK going to Essex St, bound for the Willie B. The signal in question governs all three destinations, as per the route request buttons at B/Laff. Three yellows are for the cut. The point of no return for the Manh Bridge is north of W4.
Well for heavens sake I hope you were blending them into a mixed drink, at least!
A) Shortened control line
B) Second diverging route
C) Yard aspect
A & C are related.
A would occur on mainline layups like Church Ave, 179 tail tracks, etc. Normally one might get a top yellow high signal if the track was clear to the bumper, but 3 yellows if there were equipment in the farther section of the block.
B & A are also related, since 90% of the second diverging routes you're gonna take are either layup tracks [Atlantic/IRT], yard tracks [Ave X], or take you into a wrong-rail pocket [167/IND].
There's no consistency of application though. Generally it tells the motorman that something weird is about to happen!
I'm not a big fan of the indicators, to me its cheating!
Dave
Seriously, wanted to thank you, Jeff, Mike and Lou for this DELICIOUS topic! :)
This case is: "shortened control line"
Back to triple yellow: Back when the KK was in service, that y/y/y
lineup to BJ1 track was a mainline, revenue move. Can we think
of any other examples current or past where accepting a y/y/y was
part of the usual route? I would give the example entering 57/7
1/2 credit because that's sort of a relay (not in the "leave off
the last R for AAR" sense).
I can't think of anywhere else that meets the criterion of "mainline moves" with Y/Y/Y. It's really for yards and layups -- and it indicates restricted speed, so essentially is IS a call-on without the manual key, like you said. If B'way-Laff were resignaled today, the aspect in question would undoubtedly be removed and replaced with a route indicator - that contract has a lot of screwy things about it (Lou Hitch?) -- like odd numbered signals and even numbered crossovers.
If I could choose one concept to integrate into NYCT-think, it would be "restricting." The rules just repeat the paragraph definition of restricting over and over without ever naming it. [what would I remove? "semi-automatic" referring specifically to an approach signal]
95th St used to give Y/Y/Y into the terminal with four cars at the end of the pocket.
The BMT circumvented the problem with their bottom-Blue at DeKalb
Semi-automatic....oy vey! Does any official literature actually
(mis-) use that term for approach signals? What is the AAR/ARA
definition of semi-automatic anyway?
Semi-Automatic in the TA book, at least, agrees with the AAR:
"A signal controlled both manually [lever] and automatically [slotting]"
Semi-Automatic Stick, must be normalled to clear again.
Semi-Automatic Non-Stick, fully automatic with the lever reversed.
Actually, back then, it would have been y/y, and 2nd Av. middle was a call-on. This is what the sign posted near the punch at Bway-Laf said when I first came out, 3 years ago. Then later that year, when V service was started, it was changed. So the K did use a mainline aspect.
And since y/y/y is restricted speed, extreme caution, the rule does apply, since the track is rerely used, and we were warned of homeless who might be living there (to go slowly and honk the horn), so the aspect atually fits.
Wait, a call-on for the third route?
Call on does not imply a route.
Why would the slotting be down?
Disconnect, tape, tag, done!
Y/Y at X-54 means that there is 300 feet beyond the next signal [X-30] for you to overrun into safely if you hit it for some reason, and 33 switch is locked normal so no other train can be diverted into your overrun area.
Y/Y/Y at X-54 indicates restricted speed, extreme caution, prepared to stop in 1/2 range, etc, etc; because you don't have the 300' overlap and/or 33 switch is against you.
Its kinda like Y/Y/Y changes X-30 into a bumper block!
Wouldn't this situation normally be handled by locking
such that the approach signals would need to be normalled
before that trailing point switch could be reversed?
That is how it is handled, the locking is normal here. It's just that home signal X-54 is also acting as the approach for X-30.
54AS would be in 33LS with a 33NWC-back rider. For moves from 54 into A3 there might not be a quick release or it might include the whole station pocket.
Its been a year since I've been up around 57; I might have to take a "field trip" to visit those guys now that this has come up.
I am a long way from the typicals.....what relay controls the
yard aspect?
Later MTA designs just steer the lighting thru the WCs.
the DOH relay lets you know if you are picking up train orders ahead...
TA doesn't have Limited/Medium/Slow type speeds. How would speed signalling be useful in a RT application?
Cab Signals would be welcome though.
Then you change the aspects around to speed signaling. Since the MTA already has one home signal for every facing point switch just about if you didn't see a "straight" aspect you'd know you'd be diverging. Moreover, you'd get one block's advance warning by way of a distant signal.
Of course, with such a change you might as well just convert to speed based CSS.
We're not talking about freight trains that take a mile to stop.
But speed aspects don't convey "straight" or "diverging" positively, just a speed through the plant. You could say that generally a G/R/R means main line and R/G/R means diverging, but specifics would depend on the location -- and then you're contextualizing, and we're back where we started with Y/Y/Y at B'way-Laff. Neither speed nor route aspects provide enough specific information to preclude accountability on the part of personnel -- There's really no substitue for towermen and TO's knowing knowing the railroad they're operating.
amber could be for sharp-right diverge, and gold could be for sharp-left diverge. Canary would mean resticted speed on a straight route.
A device in the cab could read the wavelength of the signal color and then display speed/route info!
But playing games with shades of yeller is a REALLY bad idea. I'd sooner see a lit flag on top of the head like they do in England before we start playing "is it reddish yellow or greenish yellow?" down the iron ...
In the places you cite where there are multiple yellows in approach
to a red, there is a good reason. Those signals are spaced more
closely than normal. The first yellow does indeed tell you to
slow down and be prepared to stop, because the red signal which
is two or three signals away is in fact about the same distance
away as it would be for normal signal spacing. If you dismiss
it because "the red is 3 signals away", you'll probably hit the
signal.
What you are advocating would be handled under classic RR wayside
signaling as either an Advance Approach or Approach Medium.
That sort of thing is not necessary in a transit application where
blocks are short and service braking rates are very high.
(And all of those stopping distances are based on the R-1/9's braking curves, so in an R-46, you are going to hit the signal!)
Another idea I had was to use blue as "less restrictive" than green (to keep with the spectral order.) It would be the basic proceed signal in long fast clear strethces, while the greens would be used to approach the yellows. But still, just an idea to float around to give blue a traffic use (in the streets, it would mean "don't stop"-- even more opposite from red than green. I hate the way in the terror security codes they put blue between green and yellow).
What transit does is sort of inside-out. On the mainline it
is 3-block signals, but in approach to stations effectively
another speed level is introduced through the mechanism of
station time, which allows a train to get closer than the
normal separation distance under speed control.
And don't worry, when CBTC is implemented system-wide, shortly
before you retire, you'll have all the speed and advance
warning information you want.
Look for Zs2/Zs2v (direction) and Zs3/Zs3v (speed):
http://www.sh1.org/eisenbahn/snzs.htm
Beschleunigungsanzeiger(DB) K-Scheibe(DR) / Acceleration indicator:
driver should use maximum timetable speed to shorten driving time.
Verzögerungsanzeiger(DB) L-Scheibe(DR) / Delay indicator:
driver should lower speed by about 30 %.
We need some of those on the Lexington Ave Line!!!
Beschleunigungsanzeiger(DB) K-Scheibe(DR) / Acceleration indicator:
driver should use maximum timetable speed to shorten driving time.
Verzögerungsanzeiger(DB) L-Scheibe(DR) / Delay indicator:
driver should lower speed by about 30 %.
We need some of those on the Lexington Ave Line!!!
If two routes leading to the same station, you have a three or four track
configuration. Then the direction indicator shows f.e. "X" for the
eXpress track and "L" for the Local track.
If same speeds (else only with a speed indicator):
"W" Williamsburg
"R" Rutgers
and for layup speed restriction (enter track with bumper!)
If you NEED viagra then that might be considered a disability ;-)
OK, I can understand sign 1. It is intended to indicate that if your arm is broken, you stick it up so you can show the conductor that it's really broken and flashing. I don't understand sign 4. Why would a person with a broken leg also be pregnant? Or does it imply that the person is so fat that he twisted his ankle? The flashing leg does look like a baby.
AEM7
: )
lol
There are a lot of REAL signs in public everywhere that are funny, though
Nice to know we were on some survivors!
(note: I have a fond attachment to car #9311...)
How about I make you part of my train!
=p
1) Unlimited (be specific)
or
2) Pay-Per-Ride (how much is left on your account now?)
----
I am:
30-Day Unlimited
I refill 1nce a month via the $20 *(2 free rides) gimmick.
I miss the s#@t outta TOKENS.... but find the card "tolerable".
(Gahfobbid the thing forgets it's memory like that FUNPASS of mine..)
avid
It appears that the Dallas incidents were caused by people who were operating largely automatically, because they had been driving in the area for a while then, whoops, the rules changed because the light rail was built.
So, if they get the message across of “Hey, you can’t do that anymore!” then they have succeeded.
On the pedestrian front, the aim is to discourage the idiots who want to beat the train and don’t think that it doesn’t have the stopping power or manoeverability of an automobile.
Good luck to them, so that when the system opens for business, people are aware of it, so they stay safe!
The article does not outline “safety issues” but instead the fact that there will be heavy enforcement of safety rules on the system, especially relating to traffic crossing the line at-grade and violating said crossings.
The fotos are:
'NYCT Coney Island Rapid Transit Yard & Redbird' by Robert Mencher (2003)
A photo of a wrecked R-32 or something at the Yard
Photo of Orange Line Wellington Shops with a 01000 set on a hoist (1980)
Chuchubob's photo of NJTransit ALP-46 at Princeton Jct with Amtrak stock
Contributors will be acknowledged.
Please let me know if this is OK. If not, I will substitute other fotos that I have.
Thanks
AEM7
Sept 8
Aug 14
--Z--
The vast majority of these are holdout signals, enforcing the direction of traffic on a small or large length of track, as explained in the link.
Sometimes they protect drawbridges--a bridge is technically an interlocking.
Sometimes A and B homeballs [ie: X-A72, X-B72] are implemented to close trains in on one another across an interlocking. The A signal [farther from the switch] is the guarding signal, the B signal exists because its at the nearest point where a following train can close in on its leader on ST. Even though you don't _need_ another homeball there, I think it would be considered confusing and bad form to have an automatic signal just outside a switch, even if the switch was fully protected otherwise, also with the B signal present the train might be tripped (slightly) sooner should a point open up. Because of their positioning, the A gives only bottom green, while the B conveys route information.
One of my favorite cases of this would be York St, NB, where there is a homeball _between_ the facing point swtich and the trailing point switch of a double X-over. Leave it to the IND to engineer down to absolutes, and damn the complications!
Robert
Robert
I say this SOLELY because "racism" was alive and (not) well on the BMT in 1970 when I reported for my first time to Stillwell for my "assignment." As "whitebread," I was taken back extremely by the OPEN racism of the "Bensonhurst folks" I enede up working with. I grew up in the Bronx in the 50's and 60's and had never HEARD the "N word" until I was 12 or so ... and I grew up near the Marble Hill PJ's, so it ain't like I didn't have friends who were every color under the sun. Never got it, still couldn't fathom how color made a difference in who you made friends with and hung out with. Hell, we were ALL Bronxies. :)
I say that because somehow it MATTERED at the time amongst IRT and BMT people and it was amusing how the different "divisions" and the old-timers that were piping off the ship seemed very DEFINITELY "ethnically chosen" for the divisions. :(
Us *IND* guys though were considered "mongrels" since there was a large proportion of Italian and Black and Hispanic folks on the IND having finally put in their time whilst IRT and BMT retirees did indeed seem from a ... ummm ... largely white grouping. I got my butt in trouble MANY times for siding up with the folks I worked with in a dissident TWU faction known at the time as the "rank and file" which was comprised largely of minorities ...
In answer to your question, once the "New York City Transit System (BOT)" was formed, Civil service rules finally applied ... prior TO that though, the companies hired those they WANTED to and "niggers need not apply." ONLY the IND was "colorblind" up until the "recapture" as required by Civil Service Law ...
I know "E-Dog" got into a LOT of trouble here after bringing up the racism of NYCTA ... but despite him going off the deep end emotionally and FAILING in his explanations, racism was out of HAND between the IRT and BMT ... the IND was the ONLY railroad that would hire blacks and other minorities ... and it IRKED the "BMT boys" and the "IRT boys" to NO END how "N-bombers" were screwing up the white man's railroad ... I ain't "E-Dog" ... but I saw it as whitebread closeup and it bothered me to the point where I got screwed by my own TWU when I sided with the "wrong side." :(
On the other hand, I cannot recall any thing racist as a kid. If we said "eney miene mine more..." It was always a NICKLE that we caught by the toe, and I had never heard it said otherwise until I entered the Navy.
Here in North Dakota there are few blacks, mostly around the Air Force Bases, and for some in college who may have gotten scholarships. I cannot see a lot of people of ANY COLOR coming to North Dakota to live, without some sort of reason. (Statistics show that we are the only state in the union LOOSING population.) [Does the fact that it is -2 outside right now with a wind chill factor of -20 with no HIGHs above zero predicted for the next several days have anything to do about this?]
The county just to the south of us elected a black man as sheriff. He is almost certainly the only black person in the whole county, so clearly it was on merit, and because folks knew him.
Any racial problems we have out here would be viv a vis the Native American populations.
Elias
When I was growing up it was always "Catch a tiger by the toe....." . Believe it or not I believed it was so until a few months ago when I read about a lawsuit against a major airline. It seems that after a protracted delay, the ramp supervisor made an informal announcement:
Eeny, meeny miny moe, get on board, we're gonna go".
Two ladies 'of color' took offense to the announcement based not on the ramp supervisor's intent but on the version that they allegedly heard while growing up. I believe that based on the principle of "it's not the intent of the sender but the perception of the receiver", the ladies suit prevailed. I don't know what the settlement was.
This is correct. We have a sample of this in "sensitivity lectures" that we have heard from time to time. In one of these, to demonstrate this, a volunteer is obtained from the audience, and everyone is told that "nothing below the collar" would be touched. The speaker then puts his hands on the "victim's" then with his little finger, fondles the victim's ears. They always jump back as if they were groped or something.
Messages are not the same to the sender as to the receiver.
We saw that here a month or so ago when Jersey Mike said something that I took offence with.
Heck, during WW-II, the "V" victory sign was always sexually offensive to on of our allies. If given palm forward, the Greeks intrepreted it as "rubbing your face in it" and if given with the back of the hand... well that means something else too.
Elias
So how can I make decisions if I can't say "eeenie meenie miny moe" any more?? Heck that's how I choose whether to go on the Saturday or Sunday MOD trip for example ;-)
As in eeenie meenie miny moe - catch an Arnine by the bow....
In the workplace it becomes even more absurd. 2 examples:
1) You are telling a joke with a sexual connotation to a fellow employee. He finds it hillarious but another person overhears it and is offended by it. You can be found guilty of creating a hostile work environment.
2) Some time ago many NYCT busses has a large Calvin Klein ad displayed on their outsides. The ad showed many young people (presumably 15 years old or so) in Calvin Klein underware. One person in the bus depot liked the picture enough to hang one in the locker room. He was charged with sexual harassment when someone objected. The ad was, however, deemed okay in the depot when on the outside of the bus.
Gee.... I sure hope they were not looking for a handicapped seat on a Japanese train!
I know - I had actually heard the story before reading this thread - our legal system has run amok IMHO.... The problem as I see it is that some people may not even be aware that something has racial connotations - take the EMMM rhyme - unless you grew up knowing that it contained the n- word, you merely assume that it is a cute rhyme and make up your own ending like the Airline employees did...
Now imagine getting caught with this game at work ;-)
Just to confuse things, supervision works geographically, and overlaps the divisions indiscriminately.
30 years after Selkirk hired on, everybody has come in through civil service, every division is like the UN. Guys as a rule just pick the division with the most potential work locations close to their house; For example if you lived in the Bronx, CT, or Upstate, you'd want to pick IRT since the have the most sectons in he Bronx.
Since by rule maintainers never crossed divisional lines at all until 3 years ago, you'll find that old time BMT guys don't know air equipment, old IRT guys don't know 3-position, etc...
Of course, it was not all TWU at first, an issue not resolved until after the TWU helped break the last MBA strike in the 1950s.
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/nycodes/c98/a9.html
Given they way some people/unions/management behave, I am not so sure that it *is* civil at all!
What ever happened to those Arrow I 's taken out of service a few years back?
Even though some space has been taken from the extreme ends of some platforms on the QB line, was enough space left to still platform a 660 ft train? That is from the platform edge to the wall of the closed off area. Is it 3ft or 4ft. wide or less?
avid
IINM, the "Bitanic" was scrapped and the FL-9s were returned to Metro-North.
Of course, Drain Dude would rather I be incorrect because he gets his jollies in insulting people.
That is if we're assuming that "in commission" is in revenue service!
As for my being incorrect as "usual," you obviously don't know what you're talking about.
Now, if you intend to steal ideas from Jersey Mike, at least use them correctly ,|,,
Offense intended.
Not that I am saying that I don't enjoy the occasional zinger of the same type that everyone else of the board likes to direct at me. Still, I keep those aimed at those I am at war with and non-aligned news articles.
I can find a lot more that Train Dude attacked. That's real class.
http://www.boarshevik.com/streports/
avid
Have you heard of anything about the possibility of NJ Transit extending the NEC from Trenton making a non-stop run to 30th St Station or prehaps terminating at Surburban Station, this would eliminate the change at Trenton from the NEC & SEPTA's R7 line & would shave the commute between New York & Philadelphia by a half hour.
Also, what's new in regarding the possibility of NJ Transit taking over the Clocker service from Amtrak & what year will this take over take effect.
The references are in the Capital Plan, where the takeover is part of the justification for buying new ALP46s and double-stack coach stock (as here).
However, has there been any movement on the rolling stock? The last update on the web site says that the project isn’t fully funded (despite a kick-in of $250 million from the PA). Also it’s the beginning of 2004–don’t you think we would be seeing the first of the coaches arriving for evaluation/testing to make a 2006 date?
Lastly, where did you determine that NJT is only going to operate as far as Trenton? I can’t find any information about this. I’m sure that going from fast Amfleet to a NJ Transit/SEPTA combination is going to cause a great deal of ire in the Pennsylvania contingent (I’m assuming that Amtrak will release the slots into NY Penn so the only fast alternative would be possibly one train each way during the rush hour).
Lastly, where did you determine that NJT is only going to operate as far as Trenton?
Rail advocacy groups and NJT employees. Passenger levels west of Trenton are not sufficient for NJT to justify negotiating trackage rights to continue to Philly.
Don’t ask me why Amtrak or NJT is trying to be hush-hush on the matter…but with all the long-term static, it seems utterly likely that Clocker service to Philly will be meeting its end in the next few years.
The last change was for the opening of Secaucus Junction.
There has been no change in plans as to where the HBLRT terminates in the south end. The plan is still to extend to 8th Street and 5th Street (the latter station presumably on the old CNJ Avenue A Branch) although no timetable has been set as yet. (Insofar as outrageous proposals, George Warrington’s predecessor at NJT, Jeffrey Warsh, once stated in the press that he would “like to see” a tunnel under Newark Bay that would connect the HBLRT to the proposed Newark-Elizabeth LRT system…)
As far as the north leg of the HBLRT, extending to Tenafly via the former Erie RR Northern Branch is not set in stone (no funding nor DEIS); there are no plans either to divert the service away from its original northern terminus of the Vince Lombardi Park/Ride in Ridgefield.
TSTC's MTR Issue 384, dated September 23, 2002, says otherwise. An article in that issue, entitled "Change of Route for Hudson-Bergen Light Rail," states the following:
"In action by the NJTPA last week, freeholders and agency personnel who comprise the body voted to drop the description of the Hudson-Bergen light rail as extending from the Vince Lombardi park-and-ride in Ridgefield to Bayonne’s West 5th Street. They replaced it language indicating that the line would be extended along the Northern Branch to Tenafly.
"When this action was questioned by acting Hudson County Executive Bernard Hartnet, NJTransit’s representative assured him that NJTransit was still committed to three passenger rail projects in Bergen County and that the change was not significant (the other projects being the West Shore Line and a Cross-Bergen line).
"No one could explain why the Northern Branch option was not simply added to the existing plan, rather than replacing it. We have previously reported (#371) that local interests and the McGreevey Administration apparently have agreed that the Northern Branch extension will be advanced first among the three, and that it will seek funding for it during the 2003 federal transportation reauthorization."
Check out the pictures.
Click here: Webshots Community - lstmysock1's Photo Home Page
http://community.webshots.com/user/lstmysock1
Great photo!
Submission for January 2004 has begun, so post them photos!
Chuck Greene
Julian
Assuming you succeed in breaking the key, you probably get to use the card once or twice before the computers catch it and the card is disabled. So your return is $4 max per card.
If you are determined to commit fraud (not recommended by the way), pick something with a greater return on effort!
That’s why I said that this particular fraud is definitely just not worth it!
Back ten years ago before the credit card industry improved thier backend computers it was possible to recode credit cards. Each bank had a series of numbers assigned to them. You would be able to get $400-$500 off them before tey got locked out. A better return on investment then $4-$10 with metrocard.
If you are going commit fraud make it worth while.
Unless you wanted the intellectual challenge, it’s seriously not worth it!
And as an amusing side issue, the tolerance for hacking, intellectual property theft and cybercrime is slowly eroding. This is counterfeiting, plain and simple, and more people may be doing heavy time for these things in the future.
It would be possible for the TA to have Cubic re-code the system so that using a bogus card would trigger an alarm (the easiest thing to do would just be to have the turnstile beeper go off continuously instead of the current "freep" when a fraudulent card is used). However, until fraud losses approach the exorbitant fees that Cubic charges to make changes, I doubt the TA would implement this. That doesn't make it any less illegal / wrong, though.
Regarding "encryption" on the cards, I don't know if they are encrypted or not (I never bothered to check). However, given that there is a relatively small amount of data on the stripes (see below) and you have a good amount of the plaintext conveniently available to you (it is printed on the back of the card - serial number, expiration date, etc.) you have a pretty good advantage.
The upper track is the fixed control track with the serial number, expiration date, etc.) and the lower track is the two most recent transactions. The upper track is never written once the card is coded (I'm told at Jay St.).
I'm pretty sure that either the data are encrypted, or a CRC
is taken and encrypted with a shared secret key.
It's simple enough. Have a database sitting on mainframe, and in this database is a table of MetroCard serial numbers, their types (Pay-Per-Ride, Unlimited, Reduced-Fare, etc.), the remaining balance, the end date for an Unlimited MetroCard, and the expiration date. Then, when a card is isssued, an entry is added to the database containing the serial number and proper information. Whenever the card is used, the farebox or turnstile sends a request to the database server which validates the card info and makes the proper deduction from the card's balance, then sends a response message back to the farebox. This is completely decentralized, and no information is stored on the card other than the serial number.
Right, it would require a bunch of very long cables
Actually each farebox gets certain files updated every night, e.g. you report you MC stolen. Tommorow the thief trys to use it on a bus & it don't work ... e.g. 1/1/04 all the frebox were told to stop counting tokens as a form of fare payment.
A number of reasons - the system was designed to operate in a degraded mode if a station lost contact with the central computer. This happens more than you might think. It also means that the system would have to close (or allow everyone free entrance) whenever the central computer was down for maintenance. While this could be reduced to brief intervals with redundant systems, it would still cause problems.
Then there are the buses, which don't have real-time contact with the central system.
The current implementation stores the two most recent transactions on the card, and updates the central computer with usage information at scheduled intervals (18 minutes for the subway, and end-of-shift for the buses). At that point, discrepancies are processed and any cards with suspicious discrepancies (presumably, more than one fare's worth of difference) are voided out of the system by adding them to a blacklist sent to each of the station controllers (subway) and fareboxes (buses). There are also other steps that can be taken - for example, instead of voiding a card, it can be configured to trigger a real-time alert (at least one non-employee using an employee card was caught this way).
It is a reasonably clever system which combines a stored-value card with central validation.
When it works ... had two days with errors at this depot this week :-(
Would you believe 12,032 Half Fare students got on a bus at 13:23. Larry, just keep believing what they tell you about how good it works.
It seems to be a perennial favorite for NYC hackers though, and this TimeOut NY article seems to indicate it was hacked in 2002, and discussed at the 2002 edition of HOPE (H2K2), although I couldn't find any of the firsthand information on it.
Click Here
Where Were You? 1974 Baseball Tee
Regards,
TL
I have some suggestions too. I liked both your store's and the TA's official Transit Museum store kid section, why don't add more kid stuff like backpacks. Backpacks with Blue (A,C,E) Orange (B,D,F,V), Yellow (N,Q,R,W), Red (1,2,3,9) Green (4,5,6) Brown (J,M,Z) grey (S), G, L, of course 7.
I welcome any suggestions and items that anyone would like to see on a shirt or poster or bag.
The kids stuff is a little sketchy, I will work on more kiddie items if I see that it sells well.
Thanks for your support and POSITIVE feedback.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
I also think the green paint scheme was better looking than the redbird scheme.
Next stop on the Sea Beach, Fort Hamilton Parkway.
#3 West End Jeff
P. S. Hold the onions.:)
N Broadway
Oh By the way, I will be purchasing a "W" tee-shirt for the affair. Black tee-shirt with yellow circle and black letter.
W Broadway Local
N Broadway Express
Da Hui
A few hours earlier, we will be riding the D train over the West End line in Brooklyn, if you want, be there at 34th st/6th Ave at 11:30 PM that night.
Ground Zero
Central Park
Broadway
Times Sqaure
Wall Street
Little Italy
Thanks
Chuck
Times Sq --> N/R/Q?W/1/2/3/7/9 and 42 St Shuttle.
Wall St, one of the exits at Broad St (J/M/Z) will lead you directly in front of the NYSE. You can also try the Wall St stations for the 2/3 trains or the 4/5 trains.
Little Italy...N/R/Q/W/J/M to Canal St and then walking.
Central Park --> N/R/W to Fifth Avenue.
Broadway --> which parts of Broadway?
Or:
- A/B/C/D to 59th St
- B/C to any station between 59th St and 110th St
- 2/3 to 110th St
Broadway --> which parts of Broadway?
Well, for the majority of its length it's the 1 train...
Central Park-B,C (from 59-110th streets)
Broadway-1,9,A,C,E,N,Q,R,W
Times Square-A,C,E,N,Q,R,S,W,1,2,3,9,7
Wall Street-J,M,Z,2,3,4,5
Little Italy-S (Grand Street shuttle until 2/22), J,M,Z,N,Q,R,W,6 (Canal St)
Here it goes: Let's say that the F remains where it is now, and the V is rerouted through the 63rd St tubes, then down the SAS. This would leave Queens Plaza serviced by only the E and R trains. Would the capacity then exist to extend the G to Queens Plaza, and terminate there? The trackmap I have for the area shows a single track north of the Queens plaza station which might be suitable for turning trains, if there aren't too many of them. As we all know, there aren't too many G trains. Do you think that this would be possible, without distrupting the remaining E and R services?
I think with all the development going on in LIC, the citylights condo buildings (more going up soon), the corporate offices (citigroup, metlife), etc - that the area on a whole is going to need better transit and that improved G service will be key.
I think it's only a matter of time. It's a key link that is facing increased demand for service that is on par with the rest of the system.
No they didn't; that was a post-unification change - some time in the 50's, IINM.
If anyone can point me in the right direction, I would be much obliged.
I have already done that. In fact I have made several lines. The "Flagship" Line that I have built is the Myrtle / Fifth Avenue Subway.
It does not join any existing line because, 1) all existing trunks are already running at or near capacity; and 2) This is a fully automated line with express runs in excess of 75 mph.
: ) Elias
Not the J/M/Z.
(We spend more than that in Iraq!)
OK... bonds are needed to spread the cost out over 50 years.
And.. It provides construction jobs, and other jobs,
And.. It improves the infrastructure of the city.
It also renovates some neighborhoods
Roads in the area would also be rebuilt, and those would have to be rebulit, perhaps several times anyway over the life of the rail line.
It improves the quality of life in the city, and moves people away from polutomobiles.
All in all, a win-win situation and cheap at the price.
: ) Elias
The Outback Steakhouse I'm talking about is on the second level of the Queens Place facility. For the map itself, it's located in the hallway leading to the restrooms.
If you need an excuse to eat at Outback and to go to Queens, you might as well go there and check it out. :-) It's between the Woodhaven Blvd station and the Grand Avenue stations for the G, R and V trains.
Chuck Greene
Along with posters of that idiot Jared.
The Applebee's in Battery Park City is loaded with subway crap.
Rumor has it the Lo-V that was recently found in Pennsylvania was purchased by Applebee's to go into one of their PA restauarants.
Now why would you want to eat at a place that doesn't even update their subway maps?
I say we boycott that place!!
We could all take turns picketing in shifts.
I did a double-take, until I realized it wasn't a current map... =)
I know it'd take more than a subway map to get me to go to an Outback Steakhouse here in Chicago ...
Let us know what NJT says!
David
1. Is there enough ridership south of Rahway (where the Coast Line kicks in) to justify a 10-minute headway?
2. Is there enough capacity in the Hudson River tube for 6 NJT-Corridor trains per hour plus all existing Coast Line trains plus all existing Morris/Essex trains plus all existing Amtrak trains?
2. No. But not all trains need to go to NY Penn. We need Access to the Region’s Core sooner than 2015 or whenever, to give us the extra capacity under the Hudson.
I don’t know why it has to be third rail though, but I believe in EMUs for commuter lines rather than loco-pulled trains.
There IS single track operation. It's Amtrak's GO.
Amtrak is rebuilding the North River tunnels on weekends. All Amtrak and NJT trains use the open tunnel (single track) for 25 minutes in one direction, then after the last train clears, 25 minutes in the other direction. With 2 NJT NEC trains, one Coast Line and one Midtown Direct train, plus an Amtrak Acela or Metroliner and an Amtrak Regional, plus frequently a Keystone or long distance train per hour, all squeezing through the tunnel in 25 minutes, that's 3-minute headways, which is what the schedule calls for.
Rundown:
R32 - 3885(C) SB
R32 - 3401(C) SB
R46 - 5578(G) NB
R32 - 3421(E) SB
R142A - 7465(6) SB
R62A - 1920(S)
R40-Slant - 4248(W) SB
R68 - 2700(D)
R38 - 3982(C) SB
Plus, the shorter consists used on the G may also contribute to it feeling fast.
Stand clear of the closing doors please.
On the other hand, faced with a pushy, impatient person from the New York area…:-)
As for the airlines, they usually have one jetway. It’s only in the bigger airports that you get two, and then one is usually reserved for business/first class passengers. The plebs still have to wait, which can be a loooooooong time when it’s a 747 that’s unloading!
Similarly with Amtrak. Big stations with high level platforms are wonderful, but if you’re out in East Podunk, with just a finished strip of blacktop next to the rails, then Amtrak will only open one door and everyone has to wait their turn.
The corollary to everyone boarding early is that cabins need to be ready early, which means an increase in cleaning staff, etc, etc.
Airlines operate under an entirely different principle, where they want to have their assets (planes) in the air as much as possible, so they have invested in quick turnaround facilities (planes being unloaded/loaded with people from one side while being serviced with food and loaded with bags from the other.
Plus, I guess there's a lot you have to do between boardings, just watch all the little forklifts and trucks go to restock the whole ship.
Simple, it's a line that is in need of maintenance. They want to do all of this work without disturbing service as much as possible, which explains most GO's on weekends.
have they started installing the CTBC ( i saw some new signals) ?
Jersey Mike can explain those new signals quite well. I do know for a fact that the trippers are electrically triggered instead of pneumatically, so it's a bit longer. Not to mention the lights themselves are still incandescent... CBTC has to prove itself on the Canarsie Line before we see remotely anything on the 7.
Crap's crap, and gets replaced for a reason.
can an r-142 show 5 to Times Square?
What is it with the whole "new is better" sentiment on subtalk?
Same thing. Neither one makes any sense. Sometimes the new happens to be better. Sometimes the old happens to be better.
wayne
But then the novelty wore off and I started to miss the MP54's and other electrics like them plus the old double deckers. There is something very railroady about climbing the stems from a low platform, standing in the vestibule with the door open, reversible seats, etc. The M-1's seats were always too hard, on the older trains you would just sink into the seat.
At least you still had the diesels. But then they ruined them by putting M1-M3 type non-reversible hard seats in them and also by putting an engine in the rear.
So, to be honest, after the novelty wore off in the first year, I started hating the M-1's.
Shitty boarding at Hartford was another reason I was more than glad when I stopped taking Amtrak home on the weekends...
The construction of them is what gave LIRR the excuse to close many stations, citing that it cost too much to build the new platforms for those now closed stations. And even if they were telling the truth, there's anyother reason. They cost too much. Plus, it's a higher maintenance cost.
"They give better passenger control, better boarding, and attract riders."
Tell that to Chicago. All those reasons above are pure lies. Metra, TriRail, Superliner. They all use low level platforms and have LEVEL BOARDING at those low level platforms. Yea, I agree, level boarding is a must, but high level platforms aren't.
"Who cares if it keeps megawide freights from passing?"
I do. And FYI, it's not megawide trains. NYA has to travel at limited speeds through stations because just a little sway and the boxcars are hittin the platforms, and those aren't exactly megawide trains.
"There's not much freight on the LIRR,"
Lies lies lies. You ever see the LIE? It's like a truck stop. I think I can safely say that there is quite a bit of freight on LI.
"I don't think the LIRR should be turned into a mini CSX anyway, since it serves a much more important purpose moving people, right now."
It wouldn't. LIRR gave over freight operations to NYA years ago. And if you don't think rail freight on LI would be good, take a look at how much the trucks are screwin up the environment and how much they add to the traffic problem. Transportin even just 20% of that by rail would help LIers live easier. Hey, I'm a fan of trucking, but I'm also a fan of being real.
PRAY FOR MOJO
Long into short: M1'a RULE
You're so wrong about that.
1) Some will be retained.
2) Some may be sold.
3) Some will be scrapped.
Most of the Vickers ones will survive the 678 M-7 car onslaught.
I don't think the 2nd batch will survive the M-7 onslaught. There will be option orders.
I remember in college seeing 2 M-2's on the rear of a Conrail freight in April 1976 going through Dunkirk, NY.
I am not too confident with option orders given the MTA's growing debt problems.
And the old fleet sucked just as hard. The ex MP cars rode like shit, were noisy as hell, and just as slow. They also smelled like piss and were flithy at best.
Sniff! Sniff!
FWIW, I ride Metro-North MU trains an avg 3-4 times a week and I don't see too much difference between the M1s and the much newer M3s. I think a lot depends on when they were last shopped. This summer I noticed that many of the M1s had excellent a/c, though some were not so good. A lot of the Ms have been reupholstered and they're still pretty comfortable. The heat has always been good in winter. And, at least on Metro-North, they're brightly lit. (LIRR cars always seem to have a couple ceiling lights out, with 'dark' spots in certain areas of the cars. Makes it tough to read the fine print.)
I think the main reason they're gonna be scrapped is the major components are now 30-plus years old and maintenance costs are climbing.
BTW - The M-1s use G4 and G4A brake packages
I recall that some of the PCCs I've operated apply dynamic, pneumatic, and track brake when they go BIE. That's one heck of a stop!
On the other hand - when the brakepipe goes to 0 in any car, the emergency contactor drops out instantaneously. This allows B+ to energize the EMVs trainline to permit all cars of the train to go into emergency at the same instant. This is the same contactor that applies CB+ to the controller when the cars are charged and prevents CB+ from being on the controller whent he train is in emergency. This is a failsafe to prevent a car taking power with no air in the system.
If we were to provide a seperate B+ in emergency to allow the controller to run into dynamic brake, then you permit the possibility os a single-point failure to permit a car to take power without air brake protection. All things considered, it's not worth the difference. After all, brake rates of NYCT cars are 3 MPH/Sec in emergency and 3.2 MPH/Sec. in max brake. Not really much of a difference at the speeds NYCT equipment operates at.
Now thinking about it, I was on a Boston MBTA Type-7 two-car train of streetcars some years ago that broke apart while moving at about 30mph. It went BIE (I was in the second car), and EVERYONE standing ended up falling over. It was so harsh, that the operator came through the car asking if anyone needed medical assistance. Fortunately, no one did.
You were on the car the led to the whole slewing bearing refit program? The one that broke apart between A and B sections? Or did you mean two car train separating into two one car trains?
Not according to NTSB braking tests (pp 20-22) that were conducted as a result of the Williamsburg Bridge accident.
Three tests were made at the site of the accident (p 20). Emergency braking was used for the first two tests. The stopping distances were 364.5 and 358.5 feet from the point where the brakes were applied, with the train going at 34 mph. This corresponds to braking rates of 2.33 and 2.37 mph/sec. A third test was made with full service braking. The stopping distance was 162.17 feet from the point where the brakes were applied with the train going at 33 mph. This corresponds to a braking rate of 4.94 mph/sec.
Additional tests were made on a test track (p 22, Table 5). Three series of tests were made with both service and emergency brakes from a nominal 20, 30 and 40 mph.
The emergency braking rates for Test No 1 were: 2.69 mph/sec from 19.5 mph; 2.78 mph/sec from 29 mph and 2.89 mph/sec from 37.5 mph.
The emergency braking rates for Test No 2 were: 2.48 mph/sec from 19.3 mph; 2.71 mph/sec from 30.1 mph and 2.85 mph/sec from 39.5 mph.
The emergency braking rates for Test No 3 were: 1.73 mph/sec from 20 mph; 2.04 mph/sec from 29.7 mph and 2.30 mph/sec from 39.2 mph.
The service braking rates for Test No 1 were: 2.64 mph/sec from 19.1 mph; 2.75 mph/sec from 29.9 mph and 3.10 mph/sec from 38.3 mph.
The service braking rates for Test No 2 were: 2.26 mph/sec from 21.0 mph; 2.64 mph/sec from 30.7 mph and 2.99 mph/sec from 40.3 mph.
The service braking rates for Test No 3 were: 2.34 mph/sec from 20.8 mph; 2.54 mph/sec from 31.3 mph and 2.89 mph/sec from 39.6 mph.
There were 11 emergency braking tests. The brakes failed to meet the 3.2 mph/sec rate in all tests. The best performance was 2.89 mph/sec.
There were 10 service braking tests. The brakes met the 3.0 mph/sec rate in only 2 of these tests and came very close (2.99 mph/sec) in one other.
The big difference with PCCs is that the operator can presumably
sense if the wheels are sliding and take appropriate action
(drop sand, back off on the brakes, or push down harder and
try the track brakes). With MU equipment, the motorman doesn't
have that kind of fine control.
I believe the thinking of the BOT here was that emergency should
be an almost separate fail-safe braking system. We don't want
to rely on the dynamic brake system, which is pretty complex
and can get knocked out in a number of ways, as part of our
stopping means. So, the car has to be able to deliver the
3.2 MPH/s spec decel rate in emergency purely through friction
braking. If you allowed the dynamics to work also, then you
could achieve a higher rate, but you'd have to introduce slip-slide
control to prevent the wheels from locking up and achieving a
lower effective rate, and there we go again relying on complicated
control circuits
Believe it or not, the R14X cars, for all their over-complexity,
have the same thing. If the brake pipe pressure falls rapidly,
a purely pneumatic emergency valve takes over and applies a
specified pressure to the cylinders, regardless of what the
computer says.
Most inductive pickup sensors tends to drop off the face of the earth at low RPMs, whereas hall effect types won't. Inductives are cheap and easy, halls are more expensive and a bit harder. There's variable reluctance too, but I think they drop off at some point also.
I'm guessing it's an analog system, though even still, noticing a high rate of change isn't that hard. Of course, this assumes it's 2004, an op amp costs 3 cents, and actually performs well. In the 60's / 70's, that wasn't the case. 741s aren't spectacular, weren't cheap back then, and thus obvious features tended to get dropped from things. It's easy today to say that if you notice 4 axles achiving a 5 or 6 mph/s deceleration on equipment that can't do better than 3.0 or so, they're locking, but years ago? That actually cost money and board space and all. So it wasn't dropped or wasn't well implemented, and you get slides as a result. Oh yeah, and this is all analog, so it drifted depending on pretty much everything. I have some test equipment that's quite stable, if you're willing to wait an hour or so before use. And that's not in a place that's shaking, changing temperature, and voltage all the time.
Heck even simpler feedback controls weren't common - automatic fine tunning on TV sets litteraly was the addition of 4 or 5 components, yet took forever before it was standard. Same with automatic chroma gain on color sets (RCA didn't have it until at least beyond CTC-16)
Interesting. Breda cars on MBTA had similar problems, in service braking. My recollection is that they had to resort to a hack to fix that problem. If all four wheels are detected to be sliding, the computer actually assumes that the car is decelerating at the same rate as it was before the wheels began to slide. The Bredas are supposed to maintain a service braking rate of 2.0 mphps regardless of slide conditions and speed of train.
www.forgotten-ny.com
The M-1's ride is better if you can believe it. Also the M-3 truck is not the same as the M-1. The M-1 is a Budd Pioneer truck, the M-3 is something different and explains the harsh ride. BTW, you can't interchange M-1 and M-3 trucks.
Bill "Newkirk"
avid
SEND AVID READER TO BELLEVUE !
Bill "Newkirk"
What the R46 doorchime should sound like.
R46 5987
R46 5910
R46 5772
No better way to send us off than having R46s 5987 and 5986 close together.
May these anomalies live on...
Chimes after the doors open means they will close (eventually). The current chime-as-they-close doesn't give sight-impaired people the chance to get out of the way, as was originally contemplated.
Da Hui
MAKE IT STTTTTTTOOOOOOOOOPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP!!
1:12 of absolutely an R40 that should be put out of it's misery.
#3 West End Jeff
No idea how it started, or what could possibly create it.
#3 West End Jeff
They're going to start working on it AFTER the Second Avenue Subway is completed!
Seriously - here is a website that has a summary of the reasons we don't have that tunnel:
http://www.panix.com/~danielc/nyc/sibktunl.htm
Also there are bellmouths at:
-South of the 59 Street, Brooklyn Station
-South of the Whitehall Street, Manhattan Station
Another service would be via north shore line from St George to NJ, either up the new(well, recently resurected) freight line and/or down to princeton.
And then of course HBLR extension to the south shore
Now, it's rather tedious to reach Bay Ridge from Manhattan by subway. Sure, there's express service over the Manhattan Bridge, and more coming on Feb 22nd, but in all likelihood it'll be sacrificed to trackwork on weekends, and the MTA loves to curtail express service when it can overnights.
The best bet is what you have now...subway to south ferry, 20-minute ferry ride, and the SIRR whose schedule is arranged to coincide with when the ferry berths.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I think the problem is what NYW would have to charge to be profitable - they were charging $5 for the LIC - Pier 11 run. Then they would need sufficient ridership - they got out of the LIC ferry run because they claimed ridership wasn't sufficient to pay for the service in spite of the $5 fare...
Why would a Staten Islander pay $5 or more for a service he/she could ride for free? Yes - some will place speed at a premium and pay the premium price but I don't think that there would be sufficient ridership to sustain an NYW route..
It expands in the summer and contracts in the winter...
The 63rd St tunnel was connected to the Queens Boulevard line.
Stillwell Avenue reconstruction has meant temporary closings and shortenings of lines.
The curves at Snediker Ave are being straightened.
I don’t count the Manhattan Bridge flip, as arguments can be made that this is replacing like with like.
However, there is a lot of information and photographs and maps and…in the pages here. It’s a good idea to read about history there, and then ask more detailed questions about the missing pieces if you find any.
To answer your question, Yes.
The answer is 42.
: )
Learn well, otherwise you might have to listen to some Vogon poetry!
Sunday night, the 2230.5 Stillwell stops at Dekalb. Monday morning, the 0530 Stillwell bypasses Dekalb.
Monday night, the 2239 Stillwell stops at Dekalb. Tuesday morning, the 0530 Stillwell bypasses Dekalb.
Tuesday night, the 2239 Stillwell stops at Dekalb. Wednesday morning, the 0530 Stillwell bypasses Dekalb.
Wednesday night, the 2239 Stillwell stops at Dekalb. Thursday morning, the 0530 Stillwell bypasses Dekalb.
Thursday night, the 2239 Stillwell stops at Dekalb. Friday morning, the 0530 Stillwell bypasses Dekalb.
Friday night, the 2239 Stillwell stops at Dekalb. Saturday morning, the 0617 Stillwell bypasses Dekalb.
Saturday night, the 2238 Stillwell stops at Dekalb. Sunday morning, the 0537.5 Stillwell bypasses Dekalb.
Sunday night, the 2323 205St stops at Dekalb. Monday morning, the 0616 205St bypasses Dekalb.
Monday night, the 2323 205St stops at Dekalb. Tuesday morning, the 0616 205St bypasses Dekalb.
Tuesday night, the 2323 205St stops at Dekalb. Wednesday morning, the 0616 205St bypasses Dekalb.
Wednesday night, the 2323 205St stops at Dekalb. Thursday morning, the 0616 205St bypasses Dekalb.
Thursday night, the 2323 205St stops at Dekalb. Friday morning, the 0616 205St bypasses Dekalb.
Friday night, the 2323 205St stops at Dekalb. Saturday morning, the 0628 205St bypasses Dekalb.
Saturday night, the 2324 205St stops at Dekalb. Sunday morning, the 0507.5 205St bypasses Dekalb.
The first southbound B leaves Bedford Park at 0525.5; the last southbound B leaves 145 St at 2055.
The first northbound B leaves Brighton at 0558; the last northbound B leaves Brighton at 2038.
The previous threads have grown so hard to follow, I couldn't decide where to post this, so I started a new one.
Alex seems to be saying that during the mid night hours, the D will stop at DeKalb. But what about the transition period from 9 to midnight? And what about weekends?
So Brighton riders with Saturday classes at NYU or going to Yankee games are still being screwed and forced into 10 minute walks to transfer when a simple switching operation would avoid that. Such stupidity and absurdity on the part of the geniuses at MTA who formulated this plan. I still bet they never considered it. Some planner looked at a map and said, it's no big deal...they can change at Atlantic or at 34th not realizing it's a schlep.
Canarsie riders have to change trains too.
Yankee Statium is not a valid comparison.
Remote to Remote locations may always presume at least one transfer, and it is just luck if a through train will serve you.
NYU *is* a valid comparison because it is in the CBD. Schedules and services are designed to bring people to the Manhattan CBD.
But if you were going to the Javits Center, neither train would get you any closer than the (Q) would get you to NYU.
Elias
Nobody is objecting to the transfer. I understand that. But for people having to transfer, and this is a special case, it should be as easy as possible. The whole point, and even you agreed several posts ago, is that there is no eartly reason whether it be congestion on the tracks, lack of cars or anything else, not to have the D stopping at DeKalb at all times when the B is not running. Simple and very doable. Since 1967 for the most part Brighton has been both a Broadway and 6th Avenue line. MTA has decided Brighton is more a Broadway line but by putting on the B train 16/5 they have sort of said Brighton is also a 6th Avenue line, right? Therefore, it would seem to me that when the B is not running, Brighton riders should have the easy transfer at DeKalb for 6th Avenue service.
Hopefully the politicians in Brighton and Flatbush will realize what is being imposed on Brighton riders for reasons that nobody throughout these threads has been able to explain. The tracks have plenty of capacity to ensure D trains stop at DeKalb when the B is not running and that is a very simple service pattern to institute and to understand.
The one seat ride is not the issue really. I don't think you've been following the real issue. Simply put, as has been said 150 times or more by various people, the D should stop at DeKalb when the B is not running as Brighton people have no convenient access to 7th Avenue when the B is not running if the D is not stopping at DeKalb. This should not be a major problem to implement. Without the B running, the tracks are not so crowded that the D can't stop at DeKalb. Personally I think this issue was never considered by the MTA and I just don't understand how stopping the D at DeKalb during the times the B is not running can possibly have a negative affect on anything the MTA wishes to do. I am still waiting for somebody to explain why the D should not stop at DeKalb when the B is not running. To this point, nobody has.
wayne
: ( LOFL....
: ) Elias
And what about weekends???
From the looks of this schedule, the D will skip Dekalb Saturdays and Sundays, except nights... Am I right?
If that's true, oh my, the people of Chinatown will have a field day with it!
I suspect the outcry from the politicians (about no stops at Dekalb weekend days) won't happen till the service actually starts.
I would predict this will change in the next pick. There is no major constituency that demands the weekend D NOT stop at Dekalb, but there sure will be a fair number of annoyed people who want it to stop there whenever the B isn't running.
Is so, I think that sux. One should always. Can't ask people to walk from Atlantic Av to Pacific St late at night
The D has to run on the local track from Pacific to 36th St, this is because the R shuttle needs to turn on the express tracks north of 36th st. Since there are no switches from Dekalb bypass to 4th Ave local tracks until 36th st, the D must stop at Dekalb when the R shuttle is being relayed.
As for the B, I am really mad at NYCT for breaking a plan to have the B train run until 11 PM weekdays as they were supposed to. Since the last B train leaves 145th st at 2055 (8:55 PM), that means Brighton express service will end at the usual 9:30 to 10 PM end time (Currently the last Q diamond leaves 57/7 at 2124.)
"Supposed to" according to whom? Were promises made at the public hearing? Did any SubTalker receive a letter from NYCT saying B service would run until 11? Is there a draft copy of the timetable, showing service until 11, floating around somewhere?
David
The reason given by NYCT, and I have it in my correspondence directly with them, to combine the current B service with the current Brighton Express service, was to marry two weekday-only services and therefore result in an easier-to-understand service plan.
By comparing the current timetable with that data posted by Alex L., it can be seen that the service designated "B" will be cut by more than an hour in the evening come February 23, that is, 6 or 7 B trains are being eliminated. Of course, all through this hour or so, the D will be bypassing Dekalb.
Seems to me that Newkirk Plaza David, JeffJaguar and others have a valid gripe. And that's fine to voice on SubTalk but should be backed up with complaints to NYCT.
Also, they might use the 15 minute rush hour schedule, however that might come a little later.
The "dress rehearsal" officially begins tommorrow on the 4th. However the weather calls for rain.
:)
Actually, up close and personal, the cars have very nice seating. The seats are similar to the seats on the MCI Cruiser buses, instead of the usual hard seats found on most other LRV's.
Why are they yellow and blue? I assume they are compatible with the NCS and HBLR if they ever had to transfer cars for some reason.
Admiral Wilson Blvd
Federal Street
Federal Street
Cooper River
Cooper River bridge
River Road
I went home for a heavier coat and got to 11th Street in time for the next train, since as Mark bigcat mentioned last night, they're 5 minutes apart in Camden with a 25 minute hiatus.
SB on 11th St bridge
NB approaching 11th St bridge
NB on 11th St bridge
Then a quick trip to the State Street bridge; quick in case they were running 15 minute headways. They were not. I had to wait 15 minutes for the next train.
Walking up the bridge, I took a couple shots of the power lined up in Conrail Shared Assets Pavonia Yard.
Power at Pavonia Yard, Camden
from State Street bridge
SB from State St bridge
NB from State St bridge
By then (3:30) it was too dark for photography.
Congrats on the new cam! The Canon cameras do an awesome job.
The pics you displayed back up that claim.
Tip: Turn off the flash!
Good example of why you don't use flash.
The white balance seems a bit off, but as you get familiar and learn how to use the camera's manual mode, you will only improve.
The white balance in that photo is a bit to the yellow side, which indicates to me that you took the shot in the daylight white balance. Underground I go with the florescent setting. All of this can be fixed in photoshop easily though, so it's not that big of a problem.
See...
Vs.
It took more than 15 minutes to download your 12 pictures. I lost track but I think you must have posted more than 4000K
Could you please mention in your subject line when you post these monster posts. That way people in my situation won't even try to bring your message up.
Incidently, your pictures were very good when I finally got to see them.
Sorry! Forgot that part...
BTW you know, 56K modems are like free in the dumpster behind CompUSA?
And I absolutely know it’s frustrating! I normally have broadband access, either at home (cable modem) or at work (multiple T3s), but I was in State College PA for the holidays and had to deal with dial-up at 26Kbps and that was a local call to Penn State! Horrible!
If you plan to use the Internet for more than about 15mins per day, see if you can find some sort of broadband: DSL/Cable/ISDN! Save yourself frustration time!
DSL is apparently not available due to my rural location.
Cable hookup is available if I agree to subscribe to basic TV service as well, but the monthly charge for all of it is out of my reach.
My neighbor is exploring the possibility of a satellite dish connection but that sounds even more expensive.
It boils down to the fact that faster internet is out of my price range at the present time.
Yes, before our local telephone cooperative got dial-up modems, we could not use any modem at all (without incurring long distance charges).
When they became an ISP, we could connect. As you have said a 56KB modem is useless if you ISP is using a 28KB modem. Our ISP has several 56KB modems (read 46KB on a *good* day) but you may get a 28KB modem on any particular dial-in. With (at that time) 14 computers using that one dial-up connection things could get slow, but it was all of the dissconnects that was the real issue.
Today we have DSL... you have to be within three miles of the (telco) switch. We are : ) We switched over as soon as it became available. It does cost us $90./month... but that is a business account, with a static IP number. (It does provide one of our telephone lines) Even so, we do not get *cheap* rates on DSL out here, because the telco has to spread the costs over a small population base. Our telco does offer satelite coneections for places that cannot reach DSL. The Cable Company does not offer internet connection.
Our connection to our mail server is at 100MB. But the mail server is on *our* network. but my users do not see how long it takes to transmit large messages off site. All they see is ZAP... and their big photos are gone.
Yes, it took me a while to down load that many photos.
Just make HREF links for large batches of photos instead of IMG SRC links.
Bottom Line... NICE PHOTOS..
Elias
They are offering high speed internet hookup, using a new dish. Installation costs $600.00 plus a $60.00 a month usage charge.
Reliability is the same as Satellite dish TV.
A technician advised me that this is still not as good as DSL or cable TV hookup.
Also, I don't know how susceptible to weather DirecWAY is, but rain fade for satellite TV is greatly exaggerated by the cable TV industry.
I have had satellite TV for a number of years, and the fade is damn annoying when it occurs.
The freezeframe drops out to a black screen and the message "Searching for signal" This can last for several seconds to several minutes.
On June 19th 1996 this occured several minutes before the rain even started. We got 11 inches of rain in the matter of a few hours. We lost signal for most of the evening. I'm really not sure how long we were down because I was busy pumping water out of my basement to save my model railroad from drowning.
Our normal signal strength is between 93 & 96.
But situations like that are usually VERY rare ...
You don't need to have Cable TV to have a cable mbodem. There is a discount for both, but you can have just the one.
Sure. I'm using a Gateway 2000 Vivitron17 monitor that somone had tossed out and left on the curb in front of their house and it works like a charm. I've found good cd drives, keyboards, modems, switches, mice, video game controllers, basically all the parts of a computer. A tech savvy individual could easily equip themselves with an entire system if they don't mind doing the requisite dumpster diving. I've found some of the best stuff behind those suburban industrial park "computer consultant" organizations. Those guys run through a lot of gear.
Even software. I once found what must have been a resellers promotion of a full working copy (with five legit licenses) of Windows NT 4.0 behind one of those places. Along with other o.s. and application software, like MS Office and older versions of many apps. Not saying it's gotten as ubiquitious as pens have (i.e.; you need a pen just look on the ground, odds are there'll be one nearby), but it's getting there.
But they do beat the "Fog-O-Vision" that was present on his old Mustek (or should we say Mistek) camera. ;-)
As for the sound recorder I use, it isn't working 100% anymore. May consider a change in equipment once I have the necessary $. For now, I'll peacefully coexist with it.
Check out this one
Bombardier was right when he praised the good photo ops to be had at Junction Boulevard. Click on the picture to see what I got (photos 152~154). Too bad the express wasn't running (it was December 31).
And this one is nice too. It has to be one of my favorite shots so far with it (taken at 69th Street).
Now you need to read the manual (which if it’s anything like my S50’s is about ½" thick!) The secret here is to learn the best balance of “ISO Rating”—how sensitive the camera is to light: more sensitive however means more noise as the CCD is pushed to its limits—and shutter speed, where slower means more camera shake (photo 3 is a nasty example).
I would think about getting a monopod, which is a single leg, with a camera attachment screw. It will give you the bracing while still remaining within the rules. I have seen Koi holding a monopod—it makes a good walking staff if you get tired!
I have always interpreted that to mean that you can’t build an elaborate setup. Tripods are a hassle because they take up enough space for three people, which is I’m sure part of the spirit of the ban.
Monopods (monopodia?!) suffer none of those disadvantages, and mine (if I could ever find it!) can be collapsed into a tube about a foot long, yet it still provides the necessary bracing to help with camera shake up to about a tenth of a second.
More than half of this historic bridge was blown down by a tornado last July, and was the subject of many posts here.
The book is very interesting, but is printed on a rather poor quality paper so the pictures are not as sharp as they could be. The book sells for $10.00 plus postage.
Inquiries may be made to
The Kane Republican
200 North Fraley St.
Kane, PA 16735
Why do they flip-flop it?
That's what I wanna know! That was the whole point of the post...
...and they forget where they initially were so they just plop wherever...
..."What's this? Jamaica Ctr on the SOUTH instead of the NORTH? Meh. Close enough."
8-)
This is getting most intriguing...
Also, are there any fan trips being planned? This event would merit brining out the PCC (or borrowing one from Ashmont-Mattapan if the picture window car doesn't work) or the type 5 from their storage track.
-Robert King
As for fantrips, NO WAY!!!!!! What do you think this IS? New York????
There will probably be no event and as little media coverage as possible, except for some kind of historical perspective in one of the local papers.
Unlike the Orange Line, its such a small piece of the system and holds much less notoriety. Plus its just a temporary closure toward relocation. I doubt much of anyone will truly care about it except the inconvenienced people who need to reach Lechmere for bus connections or because they live in and around East Cambridge. My bet is the folks potentially making the most noise will be the Cambridge Courthouse.
So sorry, its every man/woman for himself/herself!
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Only on SubTalk do I see people use modern as a negative adjective.
And a fan trip with a borrowed Mattapan car or 3295 or the type 5 is out of the question? That's too bad. My family lived in Boston for a few months in late 84 or early 85 and I remember two car PCC trains running down the middle of the street, into the subway. I was pretty young then and I do remember riding the North Station streetcar elevated but I don't remember the orange line or the PCCs going on it. I don't know if either did at that time, or if they did, I don't remember it. But the two car PCCs going underground was something.
-Robert King
BTW, the now-being-demolished artery elevated highway offers a great photo location for pix of the North Station el. Also dont forget that North Station will be closed entirely for security reasons during the democratic convetion. Two ex-B&M Budd RDCs will be used as office space at North Station during that time, an interesting photo op.
-Robert King
However, upon arriving at 59th Street, CHARLIE announces "Transfer is available to the (6), (F), (N), and (R) trains." That's bizarre....
I was on an uptown 5 today, and it made that same announcement. It's the "weekend" 59th street announcement, despite it's obvious incorrectness.
Why not wait around for the 6 that said that it was a lex express?
The (6) trains were still signed as a "Lexington Ave Local". I would imagine the C/R was just interrupting the usual announcements with the corrected service information.
what the hell gives?
The latest software revision for the R142 does a nice job of silencing the AC (outside) while the train is in a station.
The HVAC is purposely kept loud so as to ruin the recordings of foamers that would throw their bags in the closing doors just so they can record the whole annoucement.
Peace,
ANDEE
(and i didn,t use the flash at all on those trips)
til next time
Either that, or buy some new fingers!
For cameras, my most recent have been a Canon (S50) and an Olympus (C4040, nice, but stolen :-(). Both have been good, but I would recommend Canon overall: slighly cheaper, and Compact Flash is a better medium than [so-called] Smart Media, which tops out at 128MB/card.
The A80 is newer than its equivalent 4MP cousin, the S45. The form factor is different. I found that the slim S50 (same form factor) fits nicely into a jacket pocket. However it has a custom battery and charger; it doesn’t use AA batteries. From then on, it’s a matter of budget, and pixels. If I wanted to buy a camera that I would take specifically on trips for photos, I would buy the Digital Rebel. A friend has one and it’s awesome!
*drools*
Not for the faint of heart!
Wipes up the drool…
While you're eyeing a Digital Rebel, I'm waiting for Nikon's D70, or for the D100's prices to come down. Although, I probably have to save for a while to afford one, I'll be forced to be content with my N55.
til next time
If so, WHY DON,T YOU KNOW HOW TO USE APOSTROPHE,S?!
Yes, I,am imitating you.
We THINK something,s wrong with you,r keyboard because you never use apostrophe,s. If the apostrophe key (it,s between the ; key and Enter) doe,s work, and you refuse to use it, go back to grade school and brush up on grammar.
til next time
Enjoy yourself.
til next time
til next time
Lens 8.2 mm f/3.0 (35mm equivalent; 38 mm)
5 elements in 4 groups (includes 3 elements with 4 aspheric surfaces)
Recording media CompactFlash Type I cards
File format Exif2.1 (JPEG, TIFF), Motion JPEG (AVI)
DCF-compliant
DPOF-compliant (Supported by printing functions)
No. of recorded pixels 1792 x 1200 (full size)
800 x 600 (half size)
Movie clips: 320 x 240
Autofocus system Video AF
Focusing range 0.6 m (approx.) - infinity, Macro: 0.3 - 0.6 m (approx.)
Exposure control Programmed AE
Exposure compensation ± 2Ev in 1/2 increments
Metering Center-weighted
Camera sensitivity Normal: ISO 85 equivalent, High: ISO 340 equivalent
Shutter speed 1/500 to 2 seconds
Continuous advance Approx. 1 frame per second
Self timer Approx. 10 seconds
Movie recording Max. 60 seconds
Digital zoom 1.4X or 2X
White-balance control Automatic, Manual (Preset: Daylight, Fluorescent, Tungsten)
Flash mode Autoflash, Fill-flash, Flash cancel, Autoflash with red-eye reduction, Fill-flash with red-eye reduction, Macro (The flash is cancelled)
LCD monitor 46 mm (1.8 inch) color, 77,000 pixels
Remote control RC-3 (option)
PC interface USB
Video output NTSC/PAL (selectable)
Power source Batteries:4AA (Alkaline or NiMH)
External:AC adapter (option)
Dimensions (WxHxD) 114 x 65 x 45 mm
4-1/2 x 2-9/16 x 1-3/4 inches
Weight Approx. 210 g
7-7/16 ounces (w/o batteries and recording media)
Standard accessories Hand Strap (HS-DG201), Camera Case (CS-DG201), USB Cable (USB-300), Video Cable (VC-200), CompactFlash Card (8MB), AA alkaline Batteries
CD-ROM for DiMAGE E201 / PhotoDeluxe Home Edition Windows / PhotoDeluxe Macintosh
I was thinking about the Kodak DX4530
Has 3x optical zoom and a ton of other features my cam doesn't. Goes for around $300. FEATURES:
Kodak EasyShare DX4530 Zoom Specifications
Image Resolution 5.0 megapixel (2588x1954 gross / 2580x1932 effective pixels)
Image Quality 5.0 MP - best (print, enlargement)
4.5 MP - best (3:2 aspect for 4" x 6" prints)
3.0 MP - better
1.2 MP - good (e-mail)
Zoom 10X total zoom
3X optical zoom, 8-24 mm (35 mm equivalent: 38-114 mm)
3.3X advanced digital zoom
Lens lens threads for 37 mm lens adapter
Focus/Auto-Focus multi-zone AF
Focus Distance 0.6 m (23.6 in.) to infinity
Display LCD - 1.8" (4.6 cm) indoor/outdoor display
Aperture wide - f/2.8-5.1; tele - f/4.8-8.7
Shutter Speed 1/2-1/1700 second; selectable long time exposure: 0.7-4 second
ISO Equivalent Automatic - (130-200); 140 (flash on)
White Balance auto
Flash Mode automatic, fill, red-eye, off
Flash Range wide - 0.6-3.4 m (2-11.2 ft.); tele - 0.6-2.0 m (2-6.6 ft.)
Viewfinder real image optical viewfinder
Self-Timer 10 seconds
Scene/Other Modes automatic, sport, night, landscape, close-up, movie
Macro/Close-Up Mode wide - 7-70 cm (2.8-27.6 in.); tele - 28-70 cm (11-27.6 in.)
Light Metering Method automatic: multi-pattern TTL-AE
Exposure Compensation +/- 2.0 EV with 0.5 EV step increments
Exposure Control programmed AE
Click To Capture 0.79 seconds (live view on)
Shot To Shot <2 seconds
Movie Mode continuous digital video with audio capture, audio playback on camera
Movie Resolution 320 x 240 pixels at 15 fps
Movie Length up to 60 minutes, limited by capacity of external memory card
Capture Mode capture always ready
Auto-Orientation auto picture rotation
Delete dedicated delete button
Review dedicated review button
Share dedicated Share button
Review Mode 2X or 4X magnify, slide show, multi-up, fast, scroll, protect, albums
Video Out NTSC, PAL (user-selectable)
Software KODAK EASYSHARE Software
Interface Dock Compatibility - KODAK EASYSHARE Camera Dock I, II and KODAK EASYSHARE Printer Dock 4000
Storage internal storage: 32 MB internal memory
external storage: MMC/SD card expansion slot
Power Options optional KODAK EASYSHARE Docks with Ni-MH rechargeable battery pack (in-camera charging); DC in jack on side of camera for 3V adapter; 2 AA lithium or Ni-MH batteries or 1 CRV3 lithium battery
Image File Format Still - JPEG/EXIF v2.1; Video - Quicktime
Interface USB 2.0 compatible, KODAK EASYSHARE Camera Dock I, II and KODAK EASYSHARE Printer Dock 4000 compatible
Lens Protection lens cap tethered to camera body
Tripod Mount 1/4 in. standard
Weight without batteries: 210 g / 7.4 oz.
Dimensions (WHD) 111 x 66 x 39 mm
4.4 x 2.6 x 1.5 in.
Man I want one!
I've even dropped it a few times on solid concrete, breaking the air vaccumm seal on the lens, yet it still takes lovely pics.
I wouldn't recommend anything besides Olympus C series and Canon S series.
BTW: Where does MARC squeeze in a HEP motor?
What's your point? A GP-39 has a smaller engine with a turbo and generates slightly more horsepower than the 38 with a larger engine with no turbo.
The GP39 seems to be much more closely related to the GP40, rather than the GP38.
The 38 is just a 40 without a turbo. The 39 is a 40 with a 12 cyl engine. They are equally related.
BTW: Where does MARC squeeze in a HEP motor?
At the end of the long hood, whre else? It has a very visable external exhaust thinggie.
Da Hui
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
If or when you do get a Digital Still Camera make sure it uses a rechageable battery. They last longer in most cases. I can get just about 3-4 hours of use on my camera usually on fantrips before I need to change the battery (And thats with the LCD Turned on all the time).
This Is What I Live For...
I believe the TV camera is on display in the Smithsonian.
When (approximate date?) was the E service returned to the
Chambers-WTC station of present?
Curious because having visited the WTC Path terminal recently,
it escaped my memory when the E was restored there.... and I left
an information gap with my guests.
Diversion, I know.
When did the E get routed back to the Chambers Terminal?
Got date?
www.subwayspot.com
Just head there and click on the link 'Sound Clips,' and you're there.
However, the most recent routes completed, the (2), (7), Manhattan-bound (E), (G), (L), and 42nd Street shuttle, are a LOT more detailed because this newer version of BVE can do a lot more.
The (A), which will be released within the next month or so (hopefully), will be the most detailed NYC route ever created.
The redbirds or the triplexs come back?
The second avenue subway or an extension to Staten Island be built?
Chuck
SAS or a line to SI would be much better than some old series of cars coming back.
To me the subway cars are a temporal wanderer of the subway systems, in the end it's the tracks that make the subway, not the cars. I have ridden a MOD trip, and I have to say, other than the non-revenue running I was not unduely impressed with the preformance of the Arnine cars (actually the R7A car was the one I rode the most that trip). I was more impressed with my ability to stick my head partially out the window and eyeball the impressive constructs of the IND subway connecting up to the Culver El on the local tracks. It was more impressive to look out the window and see the express tracks falling below us than to marvel at the age of the car. I'd gladly ride a fantrip with R44s or R62s, or even R142s or R143s if we'd get the opertunity to ride through the same non-revenue tracks, it was great to go down and relay on the Church Ave relay tracks. I also more recently did a PCC charter down here in philly, the car wasn't bad, I still prefer my K-cars, but the best part of the trip were the two trips through Elmwood Depot's yard with it's sleeping K-cars. Heck, my favorite part of the trip came after we all disembarked the PCC and were given a tour of the two new PCC IIs and K-cars sitting in an adjacent building.
That's not to say the old cars aren't impressive, they're good window-dressing, but without the tracks the trains would be pretty pointless, wouldn't they?
That's why I'd support the building of a new manhattan trunk line for the NYCTA subways instead of bringing back a long-defunct car class. The New York City subway does not exsist to serve our limited railfan tastes, it exsists to move millions of people about the New York metropolitan area, and that is what is truely amazing about transit, no matter where it is.
The only way I'm going on an R-44 fantrip is if it's the FAREWELL fantrip, and nobody complains if we remove all the longitudinal seats so my legs don't bang into them when I'm sitting on the transverse seats.
Of course if my all time favorite car to bring back are the 1-9's. That's why I love the MOD trips with them but wouldn't even pay the regular fare to ride the Redbird MOD trip!!
As far as the second question is concerned I couldn't care less if the SAS or subways to Staten Is are built. Staten Island is a huge garbage dump anyway and the only place worth going to there is Golden's Deli!!!
Atmosphere is great! and the sandwiches are not bad ;-)
But if I could bring back one car type with certain modernizations, I would choose the BMT Standards, but with 400 HP per instead of 280 HP, and air conditioning. They were one pleasant car to ride, and I liked the looks, too.
There will be another one sometime this year, better and faster than the last one
TRIPLEXES !!!!!
Tunnel to Staten Island.
wayne
:)
Example: on this board, only Pigs seems to have the kind of depth of interest in historical detail that was fairly common when I was his age. One well-known author (my age) remarked to me the same thing, saying that if he writes a book about some historical cars there will be some interest, but if he wrote a book about redbirds they would fly off the shelf.
Do you agree this is true?
If you agree, why do you think it is? I have just one guess, since the 50s and 60s were a time of severe contraction, you studied the past before it was all gone, but now transit is expanding, so you can look more to the future. Does that make sense?
I grew up riding subway cars that are now run as "Nostalgia Trains".
Ask away, Lincoln... they're a lot more on topic than most of what seems to have been coming up lately! I won't be the one answering since I don't have much knowledge in that area, but I'm sure there are others who will.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Do you agree this is true?
Maybe my historical knowledge or interest is not the same as you when you were young, but I *am* aware of the Main Line el, the proposed Chelsea extension, the PCC car, the PRR GG-1, and the once-extensive trolley car lines covering Boston's north side suburbs.
But then, maybe I am not a railfan, but a transit planner.
AEM7
But then, maybe I am not a railfan, but a transit planner.
It's possible to be both, and if the latter, studying history gives you a definitely leg-up in your work and advancement.
I personally know and know of a number of people who were history-interested young railfans who advanced quite high up, in (among others) CTA, NJT, HBLR, City of Philadelphia, and engineering consultancies.
One of the things that made the BMT great was the number of dynamic individuals, like William Gove, Timothy Williams and Bill Menden, who (even if they didn't start as railfans, or (even in the rail industry) took what we would not consider to be a hobby interest in their work.
Steve Loitsch
I feel the same way R142A. As for me. I'm mostly intrested in the evolution of subway cars, changes in subway maps, the history of the subways, and how the future of the subways is going to be as what R142A said up in his reply.
Today the MTA has pretty much obliterated its history (except for the Transit Museum of course)... The terms BMT, IRT, and IND are no longer in common useage - the original signs are virtually all gone - equipment is basically two types - stainless steel or redbirds [yeah I know there are differences but it all looks alike to me ;-)]
Paul, I agree with your conclusion for the most part - in the 70's the system was deteriorating so we looked to the past for the golden days - OTOH today it seems everyone is looking more to the future in light of the improvements the MTA has made in recent years..
I have found the same thing in teaching engineering. Within
just the past 10 years, students are much less interested in how
and why something works. They just want it to work. I would
attribute my viewpoint to aging, but it is confirmed by many others
in the field who have not aged (proportionally) nearly as much
as I in the past decade.
You may also be getting a distorted view of the young railfan
"community" by observing the posts on this board. A small group
of people who focus on inane drivel can easily drown out more
sophisticated conversation.
The colors change at each express station going outbound from Chambers Street or 2nd Avenue. The local stations take the color of the express station before it (going outbound). The colors are ordered by their position in the electromagnetic spectrum, except with orange and indigo omitted. It starts with purple, which has the lowest wavelength and highest frequency and goes in order of increasing wavelength/decreasing frequency to blue, green, yellow and finally red, before reverting to purple.
Exceptions:
34th Street-Herald Square was redone in 1990. It was yellow, is now red and breaks the pattern.
For whatever reason, 42nd and 47-50th and both red even though they're express.
53rd Street and Queens Boulevard continues the 6th Avenue pattern.
The Crosstown line is green because Hoyt-Schermerhorn is green.
Court Street is blue, the next color inbound from Hoyt's green and therefore also the same color as Jay Street.
On Fulton, the colors are in the incorrect order. Red (Utica, Ralph Rockaway) is followed by blue (Broadway Junction, Liberty, Van Siclen, Shepherd), then purple (Euclid).
Lexington has no tiles and therefore no color, but the columns are red.
5th Avenue is the correct red, even though it was renovated in the early 1980s with new tiles. The lower level used to have a different color (green).
Maybe to get the sequence in synch with 8th Av at 59th St?
You grew up in a time of great variety of subway rolling stock. We've got stainless steel.
You grew up with parents (maybe not your parents but their generation) who helped BUILD the subway.
You grew up in an era where the city and subway was a lot safer and therefore possibly more fun to enjoy and explore.
You grew up when there wasn't a WWW site about everything in the world that everyone who was even remotely curious could participate in.
You grew up when it wasn't "potential terrorism" to be interested in infrastructure and engineering behind the scenes.
You've grown up. You have the benefit of your years of experience and the wisdom to have figured out what was important to know about. The younger crowd still has to figure that out for themselves. What's important to you isn't going to be the same for everyone.
Also consider that professional/serious historians and researchers wouldn't be caught dead here.
-Dave
That doesn't say much for your, or Paul's, credentials or accomplishments. Fortunately, you both apparently have senses of humor.
Perhaps the avoidance is not as great as you might believe.
--Mark
You grew up in a time of great variety of subway rolling stock. We've got stainless steel.
You grew up with parents (maybe not your parents but their generation) who helped BUILD the subway.
You grew up in an era where the city and subway was a lot safer and therefore possibly more fun to enjoy and explore.
You grew up when there wasn't a WWW site about everything in the world that everyone who was even remotely curious could participate in.
You grew up when it wasn't "potential terrorism" to be interested in infrastructure and engineering behind the scenes.
You've grown up. You have the benefit of your years of experience and the wisdom to have figured out what was important to know about. The younger crowd still has to figure that out for themselves. What's important to you isn't going to be the same for everyone.
I agree with all your points except that last, since I'm talking about the interest of people who were in their teens and 20s while they were interested in history they'd never seen.
Also consider that professional/serious historians and researchers wouldn't be caught dead here.
Ummm ... ahhh ... ummm.
Excellent point. Thanks to the web, it's easy to develop an interest in just about any field, given the availability of information, but it's also very easy for the resulting interests to be superficial.
I think that is part of it. In the 50's and 60's it was thought that transit was sort of s "dying" thing, soon to be almost extinct. So many lines were abandoned and removed, both in the subway, and railroads in general. The people of that generation, did ride those lines, so they are somewhat familiar with them. The younger guys never got to even ride let's say the Myrtle El, or whatever, so it means something different, almost sort of a "fantasy" about what it was.
Also, it is easier to stay interested in the hobby now. When I was a teenager in the 80's, I rode the subway, but only talked about it when I was with a friend of a similar interest, or if I read a book. As mentioned by Dave, there was no internet to keep track of it. There was no fanfare in the railfan world when the R10's were last running, or when the last R30 redbird left the system. In my case, one day I rode one, and a few weeks later they just turned up missing, with no clue what happened to them. Silly me, when the R16's turned up missing, I just thought they were out getting their "green" paint scheme to look like the R10's. How was I to know they were getting cut up next to the L line, near Wilson Ave? I had to wait to read about that in a book many years later!
That's a very important point. Face it, to most of our non-railfan partners, friends and colleagues, "railfan" isn't a very cool thing to be. Busfan is even worse. I'm both, but I only talk about trains and buses with others who I know share the interest. Boards like this enable us to converse with hundreds of others around the world without embarrassment, and without age barriers too.
I found a copy of that in the stacks of my university library (yes - in the UK - bizarre) today. The circulator on 34th, 42nd, 48th and 57th Sts looks quite complex and fun.
I've summarized that in the section "The "Program For Action" 5 Years Later" in my article The New York City Transit Authority in the 1970s
.
--Mark
Yep - haven't managed to read it yet though. All sorts of random things seem to be in the stacks - I'm having several field days!!!
I've summarized that in the section "The "Program For Action" 5 Years Later" in my article The New York City Transit Authority in the 1970s
Thanks! Great article - a couple of questions:
A midtown distribution system along 57th, 48th, 42nd and 33rd Sts., using some kind of guided systems technology to link terminals, offices and other travel points. One guided system under consideration was the same proposed as a replacement for the 42nd Street shuttle back in the 1950s.
What was the system proposed in the 50s?
Extension of the IRT #5 Dyre Ave line to Co-op City
How would this have worked? Wouldn't extending the 6 be easier?
What was the [midtown distribution system] proposed in the 50s?
It was going to replace the Times Square / Grand Central Shuttle.
In 1954, Sidney H. Bingham, then chairman of the Board of Transportation, proposed a conveyor belt system to transport a dozen people at a time in small cars continuously moving between the two stations. A contract of $3.8 million was awarded in Novemberof that same year, but was cancelled less than a year later because it was believed to be too expensive.
Extension of the IRT #5 Dyre Ave line to Co-op City .. How would this have worked? Wouldn't extending the 6 be easier?
I don't know what the plan for this was, and I am not certain if the 5 year assessment mentioned it either.
--Mark
By Feb 15th, a missed SEPTA connections can be partially overcome by the River Line and PATCO. Slower, but better than waiting an hour for SEPTA.
The constrcution costs were about $25M/mile, which is quite a bargain. HBLRT cost as much as a subway per mile.
It's much more than that. The Courier-Post ("South Jersey's newspaper") has been carrying on a vendetta against the line from the outset. That's where Jersey Mike got his term "Doggle", from a headline and many one-sided articles in the Courier decrying the billion dollar boondoggle.
But without "Doggle" there's no name now. River Line is unacceptable.
Um, excuse me, but if the hind end of eastbound NJT trains gets filled up at Trenton and Princeton Junction, where do you propose the 8 billion morons at New Brunswick go?? The station building is at the **WEST END** of the platform, and nobody wants to move to the east end of the platform, even after they purchase their tickets. Also, once they get on the train, most refuse to walk forward where there might be more room and more seats.
I don't know how the east end gets it worse when New Brunswick, Metuchen, and Elizabeth are heavy "west end" stations.
>>New Brunswick people don't need empty cars to board.<<
I agree that they don't deserve "special treatment", but it alleviates a lot of chaos that is caused by the scenario described in the earlier post.
>>Forcing late SEPTA passengers to walk forward at Trenton also delays departures.<<
Agreed. Unfortunately, there's no physical way to get people to enter the back of a train and force them to move forward inside the train. ;-)
Well they do, I know because I get off the RVL and usually go to the west end for less congestion, especially the last 2 cars of a connecting Trenton train.
I assume a lot of the SEPTA people get off before Newark, so loading them on the west end would be fine and the same seats would be filled once again as the heavy west-end platforming stations come along.
I think this has to do with poor dispatching at Trent-town. When the Morrisville yard open the NJT trains won't need to platform at track 1 anyway and will stop accross the platform from the SEPTA on 4 and then run into the Yard at MORRIS.
Also, when making a connection in Trenton to an NJT train, if you miss the connection, it is not in part of bad NJT operations. Prior to the departure from Trenton, the Conductor must recieve permission from the dispatcher to proceed east. If a connecting SEPTA is only 5 minutes late, the dispatcher will 98% of the time make the NJT train wait, especially if the next train is 90 minutes away. (By the way....what time was it that you had to wait 90 minutes for the next train?
"The positioning of trains at PJ station which disfavors the less crowded rear cars." PJ is a 10 car platform, why does everyone stand at the front? Why can't they walk back?
"Crew refusing to open the rear cars until New Brunswick."
The reason the rear cars won't open until New Brunswick is because there is usually more than enough room in one of the forward cars and at New Brunswick, damn near EVERYONE stands at the rear of the platform. Therefore instead of overcrowding the forward cars, they open the rear cars. It's a system, for example- head 4 cars out of Trenton, open 1 more at New Brunswick, maybe 1 more at Metropark and another at Newark Penn.
Have you ever noticed at New York when a train is boarding from track 1 or 2 and there is a 10 car train that the 1st 2 or 3 cars are closed from the outside and the last 2 or 3 rear cars are too. The reason for this is because when the passengers come down the steps, they look for the first open door and the cram it. The result of that is the very front of the train is very crowded, the middle is half empty and the rear of the train is very crowded. So if everyone boards from the middle, they usually evenly disperse throughout the train. Is it inconvenient to the passenger, yes. But it relieves the extra burden from the Conductor and Brakeman who have the most work to do (beside the engineer), and gives gives it to the Ticket Collectors.
"Dilly-dallying at stations like NWK Penn Station and EWR"
How do you know they are dilly-dallying. I have never worked a train where we dilly-dallied at NWK. If a train arrives at NWK early, it MUST wait until leaving time or the crew will have to answer to trainmasters as to why the left early. If there is a stop signal, you must wait until you get a more favorable signal. Also, those are major stations, alot of people get on and off there. It will not take 25 seconds do discharge and board passengers there, especially at EWR where passengers have luggage, wait till the last minute to walk to the door because they are not familiar with the system and (going east) because everybody waits at the front end of the platform.
Because the waiting room is at the front and the back end of the platform doesn’t have any covered shelter!
“Crew refusing to open the rear cars until New Brunswick.” The reason the rear cars won’t open until New Brunswick is because there is usually more than enough room in one of the forward cars and at New Brunswick, damn near EVERYONE stands at the rear of the platform.
Because the waiting room is at the back and the front of the platform doesn’t have any covered shelter!
Unsurprisingly, this phenomenon increases during winter months!
Seriously, I would like to see (at both stations), the overhead extended to the platform edge (and more, if clearance issues can be worked out) and the back fences (just wire nets) converted to something solid, so there’s wind and rain shelter even when the waiting room is closed.
BTW, I tried to email you a zip file from Sat but it was rejected as too big. TS
Tracks 1 & 2: Eastbound high
Tracks 4 & 5: Westbound high
Tracks 6, 7, 8: 7 is definitely a bypass track... 6 and 8.. one's the other bypass, the other is the platformless storage track next to Track 5
Track 3: Low level, next to Track 1, stub ends west and south of the station.
And, as far as I know, Track 3 is RARELY used for anything other than storage; passengers are forbidden to wait on the low level platform. Yet, there exists a sign directing passengers to it from the waiting area.
Is Morrisville Yard NJT only? I see no reason they couldn't service SEPTA equipment here, especially since R7 trains don't have teir own yard, unlike the R5, which has two...
The Railroad track designations from railroad north to railroad south are:
#7: SEPTA Station Track
#5 & #4: Westbound High
#3 & #2: Runthrough Tracks
#1 & "South High": Eastbound Platform
"North Low": Low level platform.
http://www.blockstation.net/AMTK-Phila-Div/Section-A/A-7.html
So, in a nutshell, your opinion is more than just a little warped, and might even be a waste of bandwidth...
Based on public meetings a few years back, people in Astoria who show up for them want the Astoria line eliminated altogether.
At the meetings, did the people who showed up have a credible alternative?!
Lets not go there again ;-)
...disclaimer...joke....
Da Hui
I'm surprised he hasn't complained that Queens Blvd is "over-served" because four lines run through it.
N/W Broadway Line
N/W Broadway Line
This is exactly the sort of comment that will get you flamed (and rightly so!)
If you make a comment like that, be prepared to back it up with real statistics, personal observations over a period of time—something very concrete.
So, having made the comment, back it up!
My experience, which was from 1983 to 1987, when I lived a couple of blocks away from the Broadway station, was that it was standing room only in rush hour. If I wanted a seat, I had to back track to Ditmars.
Out of rush hour, we had (at different times) the R for Rarely and the N for Never.
That said, my impression is that Astoria ridership has been creeping up in recent years, to the point that one service alone is cutting things close.
David
N/W Broadway
In this case.. it is the number of services.. services translates to more trains..
N/W Bwy
Maybe... or maybe not... what I know about the "G" it is pretty reliable. Always on schedule.. however, I can't say that about the N. Also, you meantioned the "M" I will take the "M" over the "N" any day! Because at least it comes, as slow as it is when traveling.
"The 6 is only one service, but probably provides the same or more trains than N with the W."
It has never been my experience with this line... The "6" can be unpredictable... often times it is delayed.. FOR WHAT EVER REASON.. and can be extremely crowded..
Besides, if it wasn't for the "W" line, I would have moved out of the area.. My biggest complaint was that the "N" never hardly came.. and when it did.. it was extremely crowded.. It still hardly ever comes.. but at least I have an alternative..
N/W Broadway Lines
No it doesn't.
In rush hour:
G = 8 tph
J = 6
M = 7
Z = 6
Total = 27 tph
6 train = about 21 tph
On middays and Saturdays:
G = 6
M = 6
J = 6
6 train = 12 tph
See, everyone benefits!
It's cutting worse then close... But with the new service.. it is the way transportation suppose to be... COMFORTABLE & RELIABLE...
N/W Broadway
Where - in your dreams??
Regards,
Jimmy
When the "W" was express.. I actually liked it.. but your right, it wasn't practical.
N/W Broadway
Still, allowing trains to use that stretch of center track in peak service is the least expensive way to implement SOME type of service enhancement to the Astoria area. All the requisite parts are already in place, no new construction needed. Not that Astoria is lacking in population density, mind you, but, this being Greater New York and all, we should expect to see regions "naturally" experience jumps in pop. density, via larger residential buildings clustering around optimal transit access points.
Such as has occurred in Forest Hills and Kew Gardens.
So there is reason to suspect that if the Astoria line had at least peak hour express service as its normal operating philosophy we would see these types of buidings being erected. It's not all that great of a distance between Astoria Blvd. and Q.P., true (about equal to from 100th Street to 59th Street in Manhattan), but I do think it would be a nice selling point for developers. A three stop ride into East Midtown.
Further, maybe some type of tie-in (and new parking garages) to drivers stuck on the G.C.P nearing the line, considering bailing and jumping on the train could be contemplated. In that case, the express stop at Astoria Blvd. could absorb large numbers of passengers without crowding out all the riders down the line.
That's hardly a service enhancement.
Expresses are great when the busy stations are at the end of the line, but that doesn't describe the Astoria line.
OTOH, has anyone ever considered REVERSE-PEAK express service? Most of the reverse-peak travelers are airport passengers headed to/from Astoria Boulevard for connection with the M60 bus to LaGuardia. Reverse-peak trains pick up (or drop off) their entire load at Astoria Blvd.
N/W Broadway Line
- or -
Stifle!
Every morning this past week, I've heard the same station announcement somewhere along the West Side: "Ladies and gentlemen, due to necessary reroutes, some 5 trains are running on the 2 line, making 2 line stops between 149th Street-Grand Concourse and Nevins Street."
I wonder if the East Siders are getting the analogue.
And didn't you tell me the 6 is the busiest A division line in the system?
Sometimes, sometimes not.
Try getting onto a southbound 6 at 77th at 8:30 AM.
And a northbound 6 can be pretty packed from 42nd to 68th in the late morning rush with all the students headed for Hunter.
Astoria line ridership (millions, 2002) (N, W)
Ditmars Blvd 4.8
Astoria Blvd 3.0
30 Ave 3.9
Broadway 3.7
36 Ave 2.1
39 Ave 0.5
Total Astoria line (N, W) with 6 stations has 18.0 million riders.
Some comparisons:
Sea Beach line (N) with 8 stations has 8.9 million riders.
West End line (M, W) with 11 stations has 13.0 million riders.
Flushing line (7) with 16 stations has 70.6 million riders.
Concourse line (B, D) with 10 stations has 19.9 million riders.
Transfer stations are not included in the above comparisons, because one cannot tell how to apportion them between lines.
Based on these numbers you could probably "prove" almost anything, but I wouldn't call the Astoria ridership "immense".
"Concourse line (B, D) with 10 stations has 19.9 million riders."
It's amazing that the Astoria line has almost as many riders as the Concourse line, with 4 fewer stations, and in a less dense neighborhood. I guess the fact that Concourse riders have the alternative of the 4 line has something to do with it.
So how do you explain the much higher ridership on the Flushing line? Same reasons only more so?
The Flushing line gets about 20 TPH peak. The Astoria line gets 12 TPH peak (6 N trains and 6 W trains).
Yet the Flushing line has 70 million riders compared with the Astoria line's 18 million riders. So the total for Flushing stops is nearly four times the total for Astoria stops.
When those trains cross the East River the situation has changed and the difference is not nearly so great.
The NYMTC cordon counts for 2000 show that the Flushing line (Steinway tunnel) had 220,000 daily riders and the 60th Street tunnel had 250,000 daily riders. If Astoria trains carry 60% of passengers through the 60th St tunnel (12 trains out of 20), that makes 150,000 Astoria and 220,000 Flushing, so Flushing carries about 1.5 times Astoria when crossing the cordon (the East River).
How does the big difference in ridership in the outer areas change into a much smaller difference when crossing the East River?
My guess is that a lot of riders transfer from the Flushing line to the E and F expresses at Roosevelt Av–Jackson Heights.
No, and I suppose that means that I cannot get access to subway TPH?
Trains per day are shown on the hub-bound site, but I am also interested in trains per hour, especially in the peak hours.
Many people here have the full timetables but I am specifically barred from giving it out to non NYCT employees.
Thanks anyway. I can always guess the TPH and hope that someone in the know will correct them, as happened in this thread.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
SAS will need both lines. Astoria will do with the W.
I honestly don't live in Astoria, but I usually railfan the 7 and N. And I can honestly say this is something that had to be pulled out of your anus.
early 1970's: The chairman of the Physics Dept announced at a faculty meeting that he was a member of the John Birch Society. There was no reaction. Most people thought he belonged to the KKK.
Unrelated to Rutgers-Camden, the only illegal anti-war activity done by the Camden antiwar movement was planned and directed by the FBI infiltrator. When asked about his role at the trial of the others, he stated that were it not for him, the group wouldn't have done anything.
The latest additions to the Accessible Sations guide is 14th St./8th Aveune on the A, C, E, and L lines, 72nd Street on the 1, 2, 3 and 9 lines, Prospect Park on the Q and Franklin Shuttle, Flushing Avenue on the J and M lines(hope that answered your question Newkirk Plaza David), and the one that caught my eye was this:
(D) - Coney Island/Stillwell Avenue(Accessibility closed due to elevator rehab untill May 2004)
World Trade Center is listed once again as a Path Station.
Airtrain is listed which below it, it says Proposed Opening by year-end 2003(shuttle bus untill then)
The last change I saw is a symbol by the route indicating there is Police present in the station.
By which route? Do you mean every station that has police present?
Bronx:
01. 161st Street-Yankee Stadium - B, D, and 4 Lines
02. E 180th Street - 2 and 5 Lines
Manhattan:
01. 145th Street - A, B, C and D Lines
02. 59th Atreet-Columbus Circle - 1, 9, A, B, C, and D Lines
03. 14th Street Union Square - 4, 5, 6, L, N, Q, R and W Lines
04. Canal Street - A, C, and E Lines
Brooklyn:
01. Broadway Junction(Eastern Parkway) - J, L, and Z Lines
02. Broadway Junction(East New York) - A and C Lines
03. Franklin Avenue - 2, 3, 4, and 5 Lines
04. Hoyt-Schermerhorn Sts. - A, C, and G Lines
05. Neptune Avenue(F)
Queens:
01.Rockaway Park-Beach 116th Street - and Rockaway Park Shuttle
Notably absent from the above list is Van-Wyck Blvd on the F line (it should be there), and Franklin Ave/IRT was relocated to a nearby building at street level in 1999 when the pair of north stairs were converted to the free transfer to the shuttle platforms currently in use today.
Very old list that NYCT should know better
Hope 2004 is a good year for you.
And the new tech trains on the L were not sent to the Q just because of that.
Besides, I'd like to hear your alternative to their idea.
South of Brighton Beach to Ocean Parkway - for the last few weekends there have been trains there. However, this past weekend two switches were removed, forcing those trains to also lay-up north of Brighton.
I can't find a straight-forward high school-type explanation of why imaginary numbers are used for reactance. Is the value of the reactance imaginary, or something like that?
For a real resistance, Ohm's law relates the voltage and the current flowing through a resistors as:
i = V/R
We'd like to make an analogous expression for an arbitrary impedance (i.e. caps and inductors as well as resistances). Remember that reactance, X, is the analog of resistance. Therefore, we'd like to write:
i = V/X
We note that when you impress a sinusoidal AC voltage on a cap, the current flow through the cap is 90 degrees out of phase with the impressed voltage. Since:
exp(i*w*t) = cos(w*t) + i*sin(w*t)
If we impose a voltage of the form:
V(t) = V*exp(i*w*t) = V*[cos(w*t) + i*sin(w*t)]
on the reactance, the current running through the device will be
i(t) = (V/X)*exp(i*w*t)
= (V/X)*[cos(w*t + 90 deg) + i*sin(w*t + 90 deg)]
= (V/X)*[sin(w*t) - i*cos(w*t) ]
= (V/X)*(-i)*[cos(w*t) + i*sin(w*t)]
= (V/X)*(-i)*exp(i*w*t)
= (V/(iX)) * exp(i*w*t)
Therefore, by convention a reactance is considered to be an imaginary impedance.
The important point is than when you use complex math to represent sinusoidal signals, multiplying by i is the same as having a 90 degree phase shift in the signal.
Good luck with the math fair!
SDB.
LOL
Elias
Based on as much of what I've read and you've said that I can understand, would these statements be oversimplified but correct to use before a high-school math class:
"Reactance is a a measurement of the ability of an electronic component, such as a capacitor, to temporarily store current in an AC circuit."
"Imaginary numbers are used to describe reactance because the peak amount of electricity stored does not occur at the same time as the peak voltage, or amount of current, is applied."
After you're done rolling on the floor in laughter, I hope you'll let me know if I'm even slightly on the righttrack. :)
You see, my daughter's teacher (who said she's the first in her classes to do imaginary numebrs for the fair) did not require that she come up with a real-world use for them, but my kid wanted to do it this way so she herself could understand it better.
Thanks so much for your help.
"Imaginary numbers are used to describe reactance because the peak amount of electricity stored does not occur at the same time as the peak voltage, or amount of current, is applied."
That's a perfectly fine explanation & it captures the essential features of what imaginary numbers are trying to express.
As for a real-world use of imaginary numbers, they are used all the time when dealing with oscillators of all types (electrical, mechanical, etc.) Since oscillators usually involve dealing with sinusoidal functions, the equation:
exp(i*phase) = cos(phase) + i*sin(phase)
is the most important one to remember.
I hope your daughter's teacher has a degree in physics or EE! :-)
SDB
My daughter is high up in her honors math class and would like to be a physicist. I don't know if that's in the cards or not, but its certainly been a learning adventure for me! :)
For instance, in attempting to tune a radio antenna to a transmitter, an antenna may have a base impedance of 50 ohms, while at the same time having a reactance (either + inductive or - capacitive). In order for a transmitter to properly tune into the antenna with maximum transfer of the RF (efficiency), the reactance must be tuned out. This is done by inserting a capacitor or inductor into the transmission circuit of the opposite reactance to cancel it out.
If our antenna has an impedance of 50 ohms and a capacitive reactance of 36 ohms (expressd as -j36), an inductor must be inserted with a reactance of +j36 to cancel out the capacitive reactance. Once this is done the transmitter will see a pure 50 ohm resistance (with a reactance of +/- j0) thus allowing for mamimum transfer of energy from the transmitter to the antenna.
http://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/0,,sid9_gci212333,00.html
I have a question. In the complex plane formed by resistance and inductance, I can draw a vector representing the combination of both. So does the magnitude of the vector signify anything?
Also, how do I calculate power-loss due to a passage through such a circuit? In DC, you can calculate the power loss using this equation: P = I(R^2). In AC, can you calculate the corresponding power loss using the equation P = I(Z^2) where Z = R + iX? (of course, X is frequency dependent). If this is correct, then I suppose the magnitude of the vector signifies "what the equivalent resistance would be if it were a DC circuit"?
R = Resistance
X = Reactance
Z = Impedance
P = Power
I = RMS Current
(RMS = root mean squared)
The mag of the vector gives the magnitude of the ratio |V|/|i|. The angle of the vector is the phase shift between V & i. A pure resistor will give 0 phase shift between V and i. A pure cap or inductor will give 90 degress phase shift between V and i. A complex impedance will give some arbitrary phase shift; the size of the shift is the same as the impedance's angle in the complex plane.
Also, how do I calculate power-loss due to a passage through such a circuit? In DC, you can calculate the power loss using this equation: P = I(R^2). In AC, can you calculate the corresponding power loss using the equation P = I(Z^2) where Z = R + iX? (of course, X is frequency dependent). If this is correct, then I suppose the magnitude of the vector signifies "what the equivalent resistance would be if it were a DC circuit"?
With AC the power dissipation is again given by iR^2. Pure reactances don't dissipate energy. The store it during one quarter of the sinusoidal cycle, and then give it back over the next quarter. The power loss in a complex impedance network is always given by just the real part of the impedance, i.e. iR^2. The imaginary part only induces phase shifts between V & i.
Happy geeking!
SDB
The abstract does not explain the jist of the paper well but my understanding of their thesis is that low-frequency AC (such as Pennsylvania's 25Hz at 11kV) and high-voltage DC (such as Metra's 1.5kV) has become much more competitive against the standard utility frequency of 60Hz at 25kV or 12.5kV due to the development of on-board inverters that allow sophisticated control systems to drive three-phase asynchronous motors from any type of electrical supply.
That argument is sound with respect to the on-board electronics, and you can certainly do much more with an IGBT circuit than with a camshaft resistance control. However, I was not entirely comfortable with the authors' reasoning w.r.t. why 25Hz 11kV is superior to 60Hz 12.5kV. My understanding of the explanation given is that even though the RMS voltage is similar (11kV v.s. 12.5kV), the 60Hz would require substations to be spaced much closer together than the 25Hz solution, "because of higher inductive reactance associated with the higher frequency" to achieve the same level of minimum voltage on the wires.
Given what you said:
With AC the power dissipation is again given by iR^2. Pure reactances don't dissipate energy. The power loss in a complex impedance network is always given by just the real part of the impedance, i.e. iR^2. The imaginary part only induces phase shifts between V & i.
Am I right to conclude that this line of reasoning is incorrect? Of course, there are other reasons to utilize the 25Hz solution versus the 60Hz solution. For example, the 25Hz solution allows the substation to draw a three-phase load (to power three equivalent power rectifiers) and then chop out a single-phase supply for the line, and this eliminates the "inductive load" and single-phase power draw problem associated with locomotives. However, if the substation spacing required for 25Hz is similar to that for 60Hz (and proportional only to the line voltage), then there is no advantage in choosing a 25Hz system over a 60Hz one other than sunk investment in the Pennsy main line.
I can supply reprints of that paper, if any of you are interested in seeing whether I misunderstood the authors' reasoning. It is possible that I have.
AEM7
Not really. The trouble with 1.5KV Dc is that the POWER available is simply not very high. As far as 25hz AC, it's a dead system, period. the ONLY reaon why the even lower frequency 16hz system survives in Europe is because so much generating capaciuty exists at that frequency.
However, I was not entirely comfortable with the authors' reasoning w.r.t. why 25Hz 11kV is superior to 60Hz 12.5kV. My understanding of the explanation given is that even though the RMS voltage is similar (11kV v.s. 12.5kV), the 60Hz would require substations to be spaced much closer together than the 25Hz solution, "because of higher inductive reactance associated with the higher frequency" to achieve the same level of minimum voltage on the wires.
IMHO, it's bullshit. if it REALLY were significant, you can bet that utilities in the US would never have gone to 60hz, and the few 50hz systemes in the Us never would have converted upward.
Am I right to conclude that this line of reasoning is incorrect? Of course, there are other reasons to utilize the 25Hz solution versus the 60Hz solution. For example, the 25Hz solution allows the substation to draw a three-phase load (to power three equivalent power rectifiers) and then chop out a single-phase supply for the line, and this eliminates the "inductive load" and single-phase power draw problem associated with locomotives.
Given that 'utility frequency' electrification has existed for decades, I'm not totally convinced that even this is an issue. IIRC, there ARE ways of transferring power between phases, and that imbalances of a few MW aren't a huge issue. And, modern electrics are much nicer to electric grids than even AEM-7s are.
However, if the substation spacing required for 25Hz is similar to that for 60Hz (and proportional only to the line voltage), then there is no advantage in choosing a 25Hz system over a 60Hz one other than sunk investment in the Pennsy main line.
I've yet to see anything that says that it wouldn't be. IMHO, much of the '25hz is better' talk comes from trying to come up with excuses as to why the ass backward system on the NEC should be retained. Trying to do a casual before/after comparison is hopeless, because it would make plenty of sense to uprate substations if you're replacing them anyway.
And, we're assuming the entire 25hz electric system is single phase, from generator to locomotive. I find this hard to believe, as the New Haven used 3 phase transmission, and 3 phase transmission in general was dominant after the turn of the century, or so. Unless it's the bizzare 2 phase system that still exists in Philly for 60hz power.
I can supply reprints of that paper, if any of you are interested in seeing whether I misunderstood the authors' reasoning. It is possible that I have.
Beam it over. But, I'd take ANYTHING from anyone in Chicago re: mainline electrification with a big grain of salt, since there's ZERO experience with it over there. AFAIK, the Metro-North and NJT conversions were both quite sucessful, and MK recomended 60hz for Caltrain years ago. I'm also not aware of any new line construction that's NOT comercial frequency, unless it's tied to an existing network (i.e, Germany, Switzerland). And anyway, 50/60hz electrification's been studied for a long long time. This argument has only recently come up.
From what I can gather from re-reading various corresspondences, it seems to me that if you are feeding an inductive load at 25Hz, you will get a better power factor than at 60Hz. Apparently this is only an issue if you're tying a single phase system directly into the grid, in which case you get assessed a penalty for having an inductive load. However if you making your own 25Hz juice (by using choppers that feed off the three phase grid), then no one gives a hoot what your power factor is.
What is the physical significance of the "power factor"? Since no energy is lost, why does any one care if i is out of phase with V? Specifically, why should a railroad care?
I've yet to see anything that says that [the substation spacing required for 25Hz] wouldn't be similar to that for 60Hz (and proportional only to the line voltage).
So how do we prove this? What you're saying is that there is no inherent advantage of 25Hz over 60Hz, despite the fact that reactance is higher at 60Hz. It's not that I don't believe you, but I am trying to comprehend why someone would make that claim (besides making a silly mistake).
AEM7
I'm also curious - what nobody's pointed out is that a frequency conversion isn't 100% efficient. It's probbably quite high with solid state conversion, but rather low with electro-mechanical means.
I suspect the merits of each system will be argued forever, but it's quite obvious the mainstream opinion is that the advantaged of comercial frequency power outweigh whatever disadvantages it has by a lot.
I also thought that one of the main reasons that 25Hz AC was used was that it was relatively easy to convert to DC in a rotary convertor, before the days of mercury arc rectifiers and solid state.
That might be true, but I think the serious reason is this: since power is I*V, if I and V are in phase then you get a simple power graph that is just a sin()^2 graph. When they are not completely in phase, it's like a sin()^2 graph shifted downwards. At some point I*V goes negative -- I am not sure what this means, but I suppose it means instead of the grid doing work on the locomotive, the locomotive is actually doing work on the grid, and in the opposite direction. I remember being told in college that the power just "disappears" -- it's like the angel's share, cancels out in opposing electromagnetic fields or something. But I don't quite understand it myself. If someone can explain that better, please do.
I built a spreadsheet that will help demonstrate that relationship.
Maybe I've just answered my own question, and that's why the power companies care (and thus railroads care) about not having an all-inductive load. But I'm not comfortable with the explanation that the energy just disappears...
On the other hand, if you load a three phase motor -- well I don't see how that would eliminate the problem. As long as the load is more inductive than it is capacitive, you'll get the power loss, and the only way to eliminate it is to match the motor with a capacitive load. With modern AC traction having variable frequency inputs, matching the motor with a capacitive load will be very, very complicated.
Can anyone else explain this to me?
I also thought that one of the main reasons that 25Hz AC was used was that it was relatively easy to convert to DC in a rotary convertor
That may have been the reason on some systems, but on the Pennsy the reason was because synchronous AC motors only worked at low frequency AC. That was the same reason 16.6667 Hz was chosen for the German system. Synchronous AC motors are series-wound motor that rely on the interaction between a stator that generated a variable magnetic field and a rotor that was also fed the same signal to function. (Series wound, as in rotor and stator are in series). The reason it wouldn't work at high frequency AC I think is reactance related. I think, since the motor is mostly an inductive load, the reactance would be too high at high frequencies for it to work. But since I don't really understand how a series-wound motor works, I can't say for sure. Anyone knows?
AEM7
Regarding DC/25cy/60cy purely from a transmission standpoint:
Using AC for transmission has two ill consequences. One is
"skin effect". An alternating current flowing through the wire
estabilishes a local magnetic field that forces the electrons
to flow along the outside of the conductor. This is equivalent
to reducing the cross sectional area of the conductor, i.e. using
a smaller gauge wire. Skin effect increases resistance (i.e.
purely real impedance) and gets worse with higher frequency.
The other effect is inductance, both the self-inductance of a
lone conductor and the mutual inductance of the three conductors
in the transmission line. Inductnace creates imaginary impedance,
therefore no power is consumed. However, this impedance does
result in a voltage (magnitude) drop along the line under load.
Low frequency AC was preferred because it was better suited to
low-RPM generators. It was also suitable for single-phase AC
traction, which did NOT use synchronous motors. These systems
(e.g. the early NH and PRR electric locomotives and MUs) used
motors that were very similar to series-wound DC traction motors.
There were some changes needed for the AC, such as compensating
windings and lamination of the iron to minimize eddy current losses.
They still had a commutator and relied on the commutation of
the _instantaneous_ polarity of field and armature currents.
Induction motors and synchronous motors were not widely used
in this country. Single-phase motors were not really practical
at 60 cy. Achieving decent spark-free commutation under
varying load conditions was too hard and iron losses (see below)
were too high.
Transformers for low-frequency AC need more iron and are heavier.
On the other hand, with increasing frequency, hysteresis and
eddy current losses increase in the transformer. Eddy currents
are circulating currents set up in the iron by the changing
magnetic field. They can be ameliorated by introducing non-conductive
lamination in the path of the eddy current. Hysteresis loss
of basically "magnetic friction"...any ferrous material will heat
up from the cycling of the magnetic field.
I don't buy that there would be any advantage to using 25cy
vs 60cy distribution now. One might as well go all the way
to high-voltage DC distribution.
I got one for you...it is not effected by utility grid blackouts.
Unless it's the bizzare 2 phase system that still exists in Philly for 60hz power.
Well, check out the catenary poles. In all cases the 138kV feeder lines are grouped in 2's, 4's or 8's.
AFAIK, the Metro-North and NJT conversions were both quite sucessful,
I know no clue why NJT converted their NJCL to 60Hz. All the maintainence burden would have been was some solid state inverter things. I mean now they can't run MU trains to Long Branch.
BTW, the GE had proposed 25kv ability in the Arrow I (Westinghouse got the order), and some Silverliner IVs had it. I believe all Silverliners had the taps for it - the proposed Arrow I system did (regardless of if the PRR got the changeover equipment or not), and they say it's the same as the Silverliner II system. GE's actual proposal was for 23,400V, not 25kv.
The SL IVs all had 60 capacity, some had tap changers for 25kv, too. The frequency change was simply a change in the firing logic, noteably the ramp generator's frequency had to be shifted from about 25hz (It had to be phase locked, so it was effectively line controlled), to about 60hz. I'm assuming the Silverliners used the same basic firing logic design as the E-60, here. Given how the designs have a remarkable amount in common, I wouldn't be surprised.
Ramp generator? Firing logic?
So it's not necessarily out of the bounds of high school math.
But the main issue is that reactance definitely isn't covered in high school physics, and usually not even in the first college physics course.
That is basically correct. It would be more correct to say
that a capacitor stores charge, or that it tends to resist
a change in voltage across it. Conversely, an inductor
stores current and tends to keep the current through it from
changing.
The reason why imaginary (complex) numbers are introduced is
it allows the analysis of linear AC circuits to be handled in
the same manner as linear DC circuits. Ohms law still applies,
except voltage, current and impedance all become complex numbers.
It is merely a mathematical trick.
There is nothing imaginary whatsoever about these effects. One
very real consequence of reactance is so-called "reactive power".
If one took an ideal alternator and hooked it directly to
the terminals of a capacitor, using ideal wires with no resistance,
then a perfectly real current would flow. At a line frequency of
60 cy, that current would be V*377*C, where C is the capacitor
value in farads. If V is 120 and C is 380 microfarads (a
common value for an air conditioner run capacitor) then
the draw on the alternator would be about 17 amps, if I did that
arithmetic in my head correctly.
This current is 90 degrees out of phase, leading ahead of the
impressed voltage. The reactive power is 17*120=2040 VAR,
but the real power is 0. In other words, if you were cranking
this alternator by hand, you would not feel any load. No real
power is being consumed. This is because whatever energy is put
in to the capacitor in one half of the sine wave cycle flows back
the other way in the other half.
Now, in the real world, wires have resistance. 17 amps is flowing
across a resistor (the wires), and therefore heat is being
dissipated. The resistor doesn't care about the relative phase
of the current vs the voltage at the alternator.
When electrical feeders are sized, reactive power has to be factored
in. That's why utilities charge big industrial customers a penalty
for heavily reactive loads.
I'm beginning to understand this a little on a primitive level. The challenge in this particular case was to bring this so far down in layman's terms that my daughter has a shot at being able to convey it to people even more clueless about EE than she and I are.
I vaguely recall that negative numbers were also considered "imaginery" when first used--i.e., in the real world you can't subtract three apples from two apples because you can't have a "negative apple" unless you consider the concept of owing someone an apple--i.e., debt.
Anyway, thanks for the enlightenment--it's really an interesting subject!
She is just scraping the surface. I remember doing 6th form mathematics and being amazed at the results that dropped out of studying complex number** theory: relationships between e, the base of natural logarithms, and p, just to mention one (details unfortunately have faded).
Perhaps your daughter will get hooked and even solve the Riemann Hypothesis, which is probably the most significant mathematical problem yet to be solved.
**Better term: an imaginary number is one whose real part is zero, complex numbers have both real and imaginary parts.
You mean this?
exp(i*pi) = -1
This is because
exp(i*pi) = cos(pi) + i*sin(pi)
And since cosine of 180 degrees is -1, and sine of 180 degrees is zero, you get "e to the power of i times pi" to be -1.
If you held a gun to my head I still could not explain why e(x) = cos(x) + i*sin(x).
Proving e(x) = cos(x) + i*sinx(x) is easy, you just look at the McLaurin expansions of them! (Now going back and deriving McLaurin might be tricky at this stage!!!)
Yeah, you'd have a heck of a time proving that, because it
isn't true! It is e(jx). I forgot the name of the theorem..
maybe DeMoivre's ?
She's already interested. I think advanced math is like railfanning, either you have a "natural" interest or you don't. ;-)
I'm trying to interest her in studying Latin and classical literature. Her generation is kind of "present-focused."
Perhaps your daughter will get hooked and even solve the Riemann Hypothesis, which is probably the most significant mathematical problem yet to be solved.
Maybe next week. This week she's working on the origin of matter. :=D
First of all, the rehabilitated Bredas were nowhere to be found. According to a T/O I asked, they weren't running unless they needed to do a put-in.
Also, I noticed T/O's using anything that they could to keep sunlight out of the cabs. In more than one case, I noticed the shades pulled on the cab door and the window behind the T/O (did not affect the railfan window), and then either a line color sign or an ad poster behind that. Interestingly enough, it appears the ad posters were scavenged, since in the cases where the ad poster was used, the advertisement holder nearest the cab was empty.
Speaking of the railfan window, I discovered the true joy of it today on the Orange Line near New Carrollton. I was instantly addicted to it, and got a seat near it. It also was so cute to see these two children kneeling on the rear-facing seat with their noses pressed against the glass (it was on a Breda). I found it best to sit in the first front-facing seat on a Breda for railfanning on Metro.
Regarding photographs, I got a bunch. I took Wayne Whitehorne's "Foggy Bottom Challenge" (my own term) and photographed Foggy Bottom with my Mavica. This came out of the What camera do you use use for rail/subway pics? thread, specifically this message. Here's the results:
I have a few other pictures, but that's the general gist of it. Contact me (my AIM name is SchuminWeb) if you want to see others.
I also got some interesting Metro views:
View through the tunnel on the Vienna/Franconia-Springfield side at Federal Triangle, showing the lower level of Metro Center in the distance.
This is the pylon for L'Enfant Plaza next to the escalator canopy. Note that the pylon is totally boarded up. This is also the only L'Enfant pylon to be like this.
View on the Vienna side of the Ballston-MU station, taken at an eight-second exposure. The camera was sitting next to me on a bench. Also, at Ballston, there was a Metro police officer there, and she was really on top of things, there. As I was arriving at Ballston, this one guy jumped the turnstile, and she was right on him. As I was returning, some (I'm guessing) 13-year-olds ran down the up escalator, and she was telling them, "Do you know that's a (next word unclear) offense?"
The end of the tracks at Addison Road. Took the picture to see what's going on regarding Largo. A woman at Addison Road, a Metro employee, gave me a bit of a hard time about that, but that was the only problem I had all day. Had an interesting conversation about the deer with the station manager. He was amazed because the deer seemed as if he knew where he was, as if "It contained the spirit of someone who just wanted one last ride."
Construction mess at National Airport. I'm disappointed that the new canopy will not match the old one, though. Also worth noting that a number of the pylons in the construction zone had the sheet metal removed, leaving only the frames standing.
And lastly...
I asked a train operator at Vienna if he would, and he agreed, and so here I am posing with the little-seen "WHITE" sign.
And I also finally met a personal goal, now finally having ridden all 103 miles of the Metro system at least once.
I also got some videos, as well as a number of other pictures, but they will have to wait until I get my Transit Center site running...
Ben F. Schumin :-)
This is about as good as I could do at Foggy Bottom, and the image was improved somewhat by the application of a contrast filter
wayne
Man, if only the station really WAS that bright...
Had you had a chance to see these station when in the first month after opening you would see how dirty they have gotten over the years. They were about 20 to 30% brighter then they are today. Most of it is the result of dirt accumulating on the light fixtures, and to a lesser extent dirt accumulating on the station vault reducing the reflection of the light from the concrete
John
Ben F. Schumin :-)
WMATA does power wash the station on some schedule. However WMATA doesn’t have an equivalent to the vacuum train used in New York. One of the reason the station have so much crud on them is because of the curd in the tunnels that has never been cleaned. The movement of the trains blows the dirt in tunnels into stations and vice versa.
The finish of the concrete that we see today is very different then what on would have seen right after the forms were striped after the concrete cured. All of the forms used for the concrete pours of the coffers in the station vaults were made of fiberglass with the exception of Smithsonian (D02) which was sheet steel. The slick finish of the fiberglass and sheet steel forms gave the concrete a slick finish with a shiny sheen, kind if like enamel paint finish on dry wall. This was the result of the pouring process that required the vibrating of the concrete as it was being poured to remove the air pocket from the concrete.
After the concrete was cured all of the concrete surfaces in the station had their sheen removed by what was called a six second sand blast treatment. The tunnels between the stations did not get sand blasted. This opened up the surface of the concrete giving it the rough surface we see today. This in my opinion in hind sight had a down side. The sand blasting that was done created a greater surface area for the dirt to accumulate on.
Some of the station have been "white washed" for lack of a better term, to make them better reflect light. I haven’t had a chance to inspect the these station in person to evaluate the difference between the "white washed" station and the station that are still in there original condition.
John
Ben F. Schumin :-)
I vaguely recall seeing this treatment applied to Capitol South (C05), Eastern Market (C06), and Potomac Avenue (C07) on the D Route Blue Orange lines on my last trip back in 2001. Their may have been the other that you mentioned. Farragut North (A02) on the A Route Red Line has also been similarly treated.
John
That picture that was shot at Ballston (K04) is one of the best pictures I have ever seen taken with a digital camera in the low light conditions on WMATA.
The end of the tracks at Addison Road. Took the picture to see what's going on regarding Largo.
Here are some pictures I took of the G Route Blue Line extension construction back on 12 06 2003.
John
Anyway, the Sunnyside towers were named from A to D. F was A, HAROLD was B, R was C and Q was D. By 1929 all the towers had been renamed with HAROLD being named H. With the 1930's and 40's PRR interlocking renaming scheme HAROLD took on its full name.
The Penn Station towers were A, KN, JO and C from day one and remain as interlocking names currently.
Hmm.
Someone else once explained that HAROLD, which I heard reported as HK, was named for a nearby street. I looked into it, and found that 39th Street (the easternmost viaduct over the tracks and yard) was Harold Avenue until Philadelphia came to Queens in 1915.
So does the 1930s and 1940s PRR naming scheme involve finding names of historical significance that begin with the right letter? Is it just coincidence that, as you say, it was called H after B and H is the first letter of HAROLD? How does HK find its way into the mix, and how did F, R, and Q escape another rededication?
The Penn Station towers were A, KN, JO and C from day one and remain as interlocking names currently.
I assume A and C are meaningless alphabetics, but is there any significance behind KN and JO?
I suppose that all of this is nearly moot for anything but historical purposes (which are still good ones) now that it's all under the PSCC umbrella. On that note, what call letters does the new tower in the station go by now? Just PSCC?
Mark
The original system was based on 2 alpha telegraph call codes. The codes were picked with respect to the tower's location and confusion with other codes a dispatcher might face in his duties. Some were fairly close (I think Holmesburg Junction was HB) while others were not (what became UNION tower in Rahway was DK). In the 30's and 40's with the advent of the block phone the PRR phazed in descriptive names for it's towers to aid in recognition. All the names we now know and love like ZOO, FAIR, DOCK, LINCOLN, came into service at this time. This came in conjunction with a general tower rebuilding programme on the NEC.
Is it just coincidence that, as you say, it was called H after B and H is the first letter of HAROLD?
Probably not.
How does HK find its way into the mix
I am not sure. By 1939 HAROLD was HAROLD. There might have been some sort of thing with the LIRR ownership of the tower in that time that resulted in the name of HK.
and how did F, R, and Q escape another rededication?
I believe the original names were changed due to confusion between the other A and C interlockings in Penn Station. Reasons for the letters chosen could include 1, they were available, 2, they were not confusable in morse or 3, some long forgotten 'system'. A possible reason they were not renamed along with the rest of the corridor towers is because they really don't have distinct locations and are in very close proximity to other towers. Because the towers are't distinctive by location, plain letters step in to provide the distinctiveness
I assume A and C are meaningless alphabetics, but is there any significance behind KN and JO?
Probably not.
I suppose that all of this is nearly moot for anything but historical purposes (which are still good ones) now that it's all under the PSCC umbrella. On that note, what call letters does the new tower in the station go by now? Just PSCC?
It's officially PSCC, but the interlockings retain their old names. You just call PSCC for service. In the timetable it is listed as something like F R-PSCC (remote to PSCC). PSCC controls BERGEN in NJ, A, KN, JO and C in Penn Station and F and HAROLD in Sunnyside. However, HAROLD tower is still operational as needed and in Sunnyside Yard both Q and R towers are still operational. R tower is not technically an interlocking, but a Switching Center. Interlocking rules still apply, but I think they are dodging some sort of FRA testing requirements. Q still has its 83 lever Model 14 electro-penumatic machine. R had its plant re-done some time ago so I am not sure if it has its old Model 14 or a newer NX pannel.
Somewhere near PSCC are the Amtrak Section A and Section B dispatchers. Sect. A handles the Empire connection, Hellgate Line and the NEC from between DOCK and BERGEN. Sect. B handles operations between UNION and DOCK. Section B is a "paper" dispatcher as his territory is operated by UNION and DOCK towers.
DOCK is a madhouse, especially since that airport station was put in. The staff includes a full time Train Director, Full time levers, two part time levers and a Telegrapher.
2. Expand skip stop to include some extra stops
3. Make the (1) skip 191st Street and stop at 207th Street which is more important, transfer to the Bx12 - Bay Plaza/Orchard Beach
4. stops will be
plan #1 (all major transfer points served) skips 4 stops
96th Street (1)(9)
103rd Street (9)
110th Street (1)
116th Street (1)(9)
125th Street (1)(9)
137th Street (1)(9)
145th Street (9)
157th Street (1)
168th Street (1)(9)
181st Street (1)(9)
191st Street (9)
Dyckman Street[200th Street] (1)
207th Street (1)(9)
215th Street (9)
225th Street (1)(9)
231st Street (1)(9)
238th Street (1)
242nd Street (1)(9)
Alternate plan #2(speeds up service slightly) skips 5 stops
96th Street (1)(9)
103rd Street (9)
110th Street (1)
116th Street (1)(9)
125th Street (1)(9)
137th Street (1)(9)
145th Street (9)
157th Street (1)
168th Street (1)(9)
181st Street (1)(9)
191st Street (9)
Dyckman Street[200th Street] (1)
207th Street (9)
215th Street (1)
225th Street (9)
231st Street (1)(9)
238th Street (1)
242nd Street (1)(9)
If the idea is to move people as fast as possible, cancel skip-stop.
Stations with fare registrations of 4 million should not have headways doubled to 10 minutes so that passengers at stations with fare registrations of 1 million can save under a minute in travel time.
MNRR??
Da Hui
What makes skipstop idiotic is that 145/157, the busiest stations on the northern part of the line, get ZERO benefit, not even the 1 or 2 minutes those at 231 and 242 get! Makes no sense.
96th Street (1)(9)
103rd Street (1)
110th Street (1)
116th Street (1)
125th Street (1)
137th Street (1)(9)
145th Street (9)
157th Street (9)
168th Street (1)(9)
181st Street (1)(9)
191st Street (1)
Dyckman Street[200th Street] (1)
207th Street (9)
215th Street (9)
225th Street (1)(9)
231st Street (9)
238th Street (1)(9)
242nd Street (1)(9)
Or maybe:
96th Street (1)(9)
103rd Street (1)
110th Street (1)
116th Street (1)
125th Street (1)
137th Street (1)(9)
145th Street (9)
157th Street (9)
168th Street (1)(9)
181st Street (1)(9)
191st Street (1)
Dyckman Street[200th Street] (1)
207th Street (9)
215th Street (9)
225th Street (9)
231st Street (9)
238th Street (9)
242nd Street (1)(9)
Maybe I don't have the stops just right, but what do you think of the concept?
Or maybe:
96th Street (1)(9)
103rd Street (1)
110th Street (1)
116th Street (1)
125th Street (1)
137th Street (1)(9)
145th Street (9)
157th Street (9)
168th Street (1)(9)
181st Street (1)(9)
191st Street (1)
Dyckman Street[200th Street] (1)
207th Street (9)
215th Street (9)
225th Street (9)
231st Street (9)
238th Street (9)
242nd Street (1)(9)
I like this idea... but I would make the 9 the express skipping from 96 to 157 Street and 191st to 242nd Street. the #1 would be the full time local. the catch is.. the 9 would not run as often as the #1.
N Bwy
You idea makes far too much sense to be adopted. How come the 4 train can work without this stupidity? Gee, all local trains making all local stops, what a concept
I'm not a big fan of skip stops either... I would have the #9 use the the center track (as it was designed) during the peak period.
N Bwy
Not having chunks of metal flying into the train!
Seems to me like it would only make it more difficult for the shop to have enough cars in service each rush hour.
N Bwy
The way ridership happens to have worked out on the line, it calls for short-turns rather than for express service.
Assuming South Ferry retains its current configuration, that is. If it's turned into a stub terminal, all bets are off -- it's not even clear if the 1/9 could keep its current level of service.
But the labor (lots of platform conductors) would be pricey, so I don't see it happening any time soon.
We could use more service. I don't know what was going on, but the 1/9 was having major problems today. I rode it three times. The first time, after waiting five minutes for a train, my train got stuck in congestion between 66th and 59th for so long that two expresses went by. (I don't know what happened after that since I bailed at 59th.) The second, after waiting at least ten minutes at 23rd SB, I was bypassed. The third, after waiting a few minutes at Rector SB (don't ask), I was bypassed again.
What the hell----? How can you bypass Rector???
Ever ride the Queens-bound QB Local during the evening rush? Picture 67th Avenue being 125th Street, 63rd Drive being 116th, Woodhaven being 110th, etc...
City Hall is the one exception, oddly enough. Passengers may ride from Brooklyn Bridge to Brooklyn Bridge.
http://www.railfanwindow.com/gallery/album74?page=1
Very carefully. Come railfanning with me sometime and I'll show you. Preferably AFTER you get your NEW camera. (a decent one with optical zoom, like a Canon or Olympus)
Maybe both...
That's a major problem I have with my camera. If I choose to manually turn the flash off, then my camera goes into "slow shutter" mode, and I have to hold the camera COMPLETELY steady, or else the picture comes out blurry. This doesn't happen when my flash is activated, or when I have my camera set to automatically detect what settings to use.
Talk about scene from a nightmare... I can just imagine that scary little toy flying up and biting my head off
...and a long way from looking like this:
(from http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/abandoned/14st.html)
http://www.railfanwindow.com/gallery/14StUnionSquare456
Does this mean that trains went straight up and down the Rockaway Peninsula from Mott Avenue to Rockaway Park and back as one-third of the "round robin?" Every subway map I've ever seen strongly suggests that this is not possible; does the necessary switching actually exist where the Far Rockaway and Rockaway Park branches meet with the portion of the line that comes down from Broad Channel that would allow a train to go directly between Mott Avenue and Rockaway Park without having to go up to Broad Channel along the way?
I'm guessing that this would have been the "HH" train circa 1970, or the "H" train that ran between the mid-'80s and early '90s, that would have done this.
Yes.
#3 West End Jeff
One of the branches should keep the A while the other one gets a different letter - most likely H since this has been used for the Rockaway Line on numerous occasions in the past; therefore the Lefferts branch could remain the A while the Far Rockaway branch gets changed to H.
This can even be carried one step further by using still another letter - probably "K" since this also has a blue bullet from the days it was used on the IND 8th Avenue line in Manhattan - to designate both the direct service between Manhattan/Brooklyn and Rockaway Park that runs only during rush hours, and the Broad Channel-Rockaway Park shuttle that operates at all other times.
Much less confusion all the way around if this is done.
Bill "Newkirk"
(H) Rockaways Shuttle
(K) Wash Hts/8 Avenue
Also, I have suggested numerous times on this board that:
A goes to Far Rockaway
H goes to Rockaway Park
and
K goes to Lefferts.
The letter H is already used internally to designate Rock Park shuttles.
Just look at the bottom of page 9 of this schedule.
The proposed 2 new lines are exactly what we have now, so no change in trains. The "K" is the Lefferts A renamed, and the "H" is the Rockaway Park Shuttle.
Rather than that though, I still like the idea of extending the C to Lefferts, abolishing the Rockaway Park shuttle completely, and sending all A service to the Rockaways, alternating between Rocka Park and Far Rock.
This of course would need extra trains because service slightly increase service between Euclid and Lefferts, double service between Rockaway Blvd and Broad Channel.
Arti
In addition to changing from "Far Rockaway" to "Lefferts Blvd, Qns", which are not that far apart, we must now change from (A) all the way to (K)! Look how far apart that is, if memory serves:
(A) Wash Hts/8 Av/Fulton
(C) 8 Av/Fulton
< C > Conc/8 Av/Fulton
(H) Rockaway Shuttle
(E) Queens Blvd/8 Av
(F) 6 Av/Culver
(F) Queens Blvd/6 Av/Culver
(G) Queens Blvd/Crosstown
(R) Bway/4 Av
(R) Astoria/Bway/4 Av
(S) 63 Street Shuttle
< W > Astoria/Bway
(B) Broadway/West End
< B > Astoria/Bway/West End
(D) Broadway/Brighton
(Q) Broadway/Brighton
(Q) 6 Av/Brighton
(D) there are 3-4 of these, don't remember what they say
(B) there are also 3-4 of these, don't remember those either
(K) Wash Hts/8 Av
do you REALLY think they're gonna have time to scroll that far, on 20 side signs? As it is there are occasionally mixed signs on R-32/38 consists with Far Rock and Lefferts being so close.
On end signs, it's not as much of an issue.
However, with R-44 LCD signs it would be an issue. I highly doubt they have anything like
H| INWOOD-207 St
H| 8 AV EXP
or for old signs
H|8 AV/FULTON EXP
H|to207 ST/MANHTN
and the same goes for K. But then again, they have the D via Essex, the W to 21 St/Queensbridge, and the X to World Trade Center via 6 Av, so nothing would surprise me...
Shouldn't this info be able to be programmed into the LCD sign like the "LONG ISLAND RR" that was programmed for the sign that was seen on Car 5228 at Rock Park on the Dec 28 MOD Trip?
Koi
...those are all codes. They can be reprogrammed, but I'm not sure how complicated or simple that is. They started reprogramming R-44 LCD codes ages ago, so that they are the same as the R-46's, but there are still quite a few with the old signs, so that should be some indication.
How about letter/number combinations for branches and variants?
A1: A to Far Rock
A2: A to Lefferts
A3: A/S to Rock Park
J: Jamaica Line basic service
J1: J skip-stop
J2: Z skip-stop
1: Broadway/7th Avenue basic service
1A: 1 skip-stop
1B: 9 skip-stop
5: Lexington-Dyre basic service
5A: 5 to/from Dyre via Bronx Exp
5B: 5 to/from Nereid via Bronx Exp
6: Lexington local basic service
6A: 6 Lex local, Pelham express
6B: 6 Lex local, Pelham local to Parkchester
Now, try telling a confused rider to transfer from the A1 to the 1A.
That's because handle changes are confusing.
Now, I'm off to post more messages using my 59th handle.
Oh yeah, and if you haven't figured it out, it's Thurston that changed his handle. Who else has a qsbus email?
I think all of the time, Clayton chooses not to be ignorant, but he fails miserably. And he isn't funny either.
The point was valid. Since I never e-mailed him, I had no reason to know his e-mail address. Even more people don't know where he works.
You work with Westcode44 in the bathroom at the PABT?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Chuck Greene
SubTalk craziness continues.
I know how to stop wholesale handle changes: Charge for it.
If handle changes would cost $25.00 per change (waived for City and MTA types who face problems posting) betcha there wouldn't be more than 5 a year.
You, no. Others...
Anyone who knows about the first D trains heading through the Manhattan Bridge or anything else we can do for the whole night, post it here.
Already we have the offical place for a late night dinner or snack. Famous Pita, and THIS WILL NOT CHANG