Before I announce the top 5, here's what everyone had to say:
1: Three words: Frankford Transportation Center
2: NJT opens Secaucus Transfer
3: WMATA makes a quick BUCK at Addison Road.
4: PATH returns to WTC
5: Extension of Hudson-Bergen Light Rail to 22nd Street
WORST...
1: ANOTHER pushback for the River Line's opening ... it could have been #3 of best, but that will wait till 2004
2: 9/22/2003: Route 13 hits the wall!
3: Twilight Shoreliner: That's ALL, folks!
4: CSX kicks the R8 Fox Chase off it's own tracks
5: WMATA fare increase...
HONORABLE MENTION:
Best: Bredas Equatus CAFicus... nice overhaul, WMATA
Best:... and the Broad-Ridge Spur LIVES!
Best: In-progress renovation of Walnut-Locust Station, local stop and Express terminal on the Broad Street Line... looks nice on the completed end.
Best: In-progress elevator installation and canopy entrance construction at 30th Street Station (MFL/Subway-Surface Lines)
Best: Mid-Winter trip announced!
Worst: ... "via Ronald Reagan National Airport"... the renaming was ENOUGH, this is plain wrong!
Worst: Regional Rail's on-time performance lately.
Worst: Adieu, Redbirds... I hardly knew ye. But the future we have to look forward to.
Worst: "Frank R. Lautenberg Secaucus Junction"? NJT, quit sucking up; your name is NOT Kirby!
Strange: Stadium-Armory=WORSE crunch than Metro Center??? (My poor back)
Disastrous: The SI Ferry crash.
Funny: SNJLRTS becomes the "River Line"
Festive: FTC opening day... people STILL couldn't find the 20, though.
The return of the R1/9s for the first time since the original Nostalgia trains ended in the early 1980s.
--Mark
Nobody's mentioned the fare being raised to $2.00. That may be not be a positive development, but it's certainly a big one.
Retirement of the Redbirds, the 7 train fleet being entirely R62A and the advent of Airtrain are, in my personal opinion, negative developments. Some may view them as positive.
Then there's the arrival of the M7s.
The top moment for me was the opening of the 22nd street terminal at the Hudson Bergen Light rail. I can now walk to the station in five minutes!
Perhaps the most momentous moment was the return of PATH to the World Trade Center
#3 West End Jeff
The way NYC transit and other workers assisted passengers during the blackout. It wasn't easy keeping people calm for up to 6 hours in an unairconditioned subway car, yet evacuations took place with limited amounts of problems. -Nick
I would submit that the operation of Chicago Aurora & Elgin 36 and 303 in Cleveland in July would fit in there somewhere, seeing as it was the first operation of wooden interurban cars in revenue service in approximately 45 years (when did QRL&P quit?). Whether this event qualifies as best, worst or notorious is a matter of opinion. :-)
Frank Hicks
Farewell to the Redbirds trips...
The best was the return of PATH to the WTC.
Coming in second was the opening of the JFK AIRTRAIN.
Third, was the opening of Secaucus Junction by NJT.
The worst was the SI Ferry crash, and the LACMTA strike
I think the new FTC in Philly looks great, and I can't wait until the
rest of it is finally completed. Maybe the Trackless Trolleys will be back at the same time. I guess I'll be waiting a long,long,time.
Chuck Greene
Now, the top 5 transit moments of 2003. To be honest, this was tough for me to do, since alot of these are top moments of 2003. But none the less, I choosed the 5, and here they are:
5. The reopening of the Frankford Transportation Center
4. The August 15 blackout
3. Septa receiving 2 of 22 rebuild PCC cars
2. The Staten Island Ferry Accident
1. Retirement of the Redbirds
I would like to thank everyone for contributing.
It was actually August 14th. I should know because it's my dad's birthday.
When I awoke the morning of the 15th, the power was on where I was.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
2004 marks 100 years of subway service in New York
Regards,
Jimmy
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Nevermind.
So do I, but I have to refrain myself because they are not polite and because DaveP doesn't want them and we have to respect DaveP.
What part of the following don't you understand?
Welcome to the SubTalk bulletin board at www.nycsubway.org. This board can be used for discussions of rail transit systems worldwide. It is not limited solely to New York City topics, but please stick to rapid/rail transit issues only. Off-topic and harassing posts will be removed at the discretion of the management. Please note! This site is not run by MTA New York City Transit!
No, I didn't give my option, I stated facts. The facts are that the webmaster, DaveP, says that off-topic posts are not allowed. Therefore, you shouldn't post off-topic posts. I don't know how I can be more clear about that.
And that goes for all of you who made all those "happy new year" posts. What gives you the right to make those? They are off-topic and totally cluttered up the board. You should all be ashamed of yourselves.
"...I am willing to bet that NIMBYKILLER, QTRAINDASH, and the other NIMBY haters on this board would scream bloody murder if a methadone center, homeless shelter, drug rehab, garbage dump, or a halfway house opened on their block..."
that was off-topic but alright, no more off-topic material from me. i don't think i even made any those posts before in this thread to begin with. i only asked what a NIMBY was...i honestly didnt know there was more to it than it's transit-related definition. but I don't want to add fuel to the fire, i understand what you're saying though.
Don't be so quick to judge people based on your own mere assumptions.
I do. The property values would go through the floor. You don't save up money in order to make a down payment on a house and then have to pay the mortgage just to have the property value slashed. Only a person who rents would say that they want everything in their backyard.
OK
Modifications can be undone.
At cost
And AIUI, there's nothing legally wrong with improving somebody else's property.
Yes there is. What looks like an improvement to one person is a degradation to another.
Yes
or bury the north end of the line
No
or branch off over the GCP.
Yes
OTOH, if there were some reasonable compromise about elevated rail near an airport along GCP, and about private views not being part of the legal public domain, New York might have access to all three of its airports.
Like JFK, LGA would:
* Be paid for by Port Authority. The $635 million MTA has set aside for LGA access could go to SAS or ESA.
* Run via highways, rail ROWs, and Sunnyside Yard to Queensboro Plaza, taking over the old BMT stn location.
* Have many connections, to 7/N/W and E/V/G/R (a connection inside fare control between Queensboro Plaza and Queens Plaza would be part of the deal), and LIRR.
* Later, run to Penn Stn via a connection north of Sunnyside (when Penn capacity opens up).
* Have the ability to run into the subway system, by following the N/W.
(For JFK, it's much more likely AirTrains will go onto the subway than vice versa. It's unlikely the whole A fleet will be replaced with dual modes, esp. when only 4 of the 10 could platform).
Airtrain routing should stay as it is, via the Van Wyck. The only branch would be to Flushing Main St station for connection to LIRR, the 7, and more than 24 bus lines. Then up the GCP to LGA, terminating at the LGA ferry terminal.
But miles more construction, and requires travellers coming from the west to go all the way to Flushing or Jamaica for their AirTrain connection.
No, that's what the N/W extension would be for. Yeah, it's more construction, but it doesn't take away existing service from certain neighborhoods.
The '99 hearing was more raucous than any I've ever attended.
The '99 hearing was more raucous than any I've ever attended.
It was an impressive display, and probably why we haven't heard a thing in 5 years.
But I don't think so. MTA was pretty settled on an extension at the time.
I found the LASA Final Scoping Memorandum in the files. From August 2000. 24 pages. Worth scanning in at some point if this thing gets any traction again.
There were 22 options, including "NYCT-7": a branch of the N/W peeling off before the Astoria Blvd. Stn. and going along/above the GC Parkway to LGA.
The other options included extensions of the 7, LIRR, Queens Blvd, SAS(!), peoplemovers, ferries and busways.
But it was abundantly clear that they wanted "NYCT-10," an elevated extension using 19th Ave, and that was the focus of the comments.
For example, the stated goals for the screening criteria included "one-seat trips" from "Lower and Midtown Manhattan." This effectively means a subway extension of the N/W. These goals elimated almost all the options, including a 7 extension, an LIRR extension or any kind of AirTrain.
I'd still rather have the PA do the project for a number of reasons, including saving the MTA the cost (and freeing up the $635 million they're still sitting on).
Anyway, I'm not sure there's enough ridership to justify both.
By comparison, full-length SAS would be 591,000/day.
An extension of the current Airtrain system all the way from Jamaica/JFK would allow convenient, predictable transfers from flights between JFK and LGA. That would open up many more options for travelers as well as airlines and help make New York a more attractive market for them.
An extension of N/W would be much more useful to Manhattanites and business travelers - probably one of the largest markets for LGA. (although I can't prove that)
Both extensions would complement each other instead of being redundant.
I was thinking of setting off my diaphone at 12 Midnight but thought better of it. Didn't want the cops showing up at my door wondering what that awful sound was.
wayne
Da Hui
Da Hui
Chuck Greene
WEDNESDAY, DECEMBER 31 (Eastbound)
There will be 12 additional trains between 1:26 PM and 3:48 PM on Wednesday, December 31; six on the Babylon Branch, two on the Port Jefferson Branch to Huntington, one on the Port Jefferson Branch to Hicksville, one on the Ronkonkoma Branch, one on the Port Washington Branch to Great Neck and one on the Far Rockaway Branch.
Babylon Branch
· Leave Penn Station at 1:26 PM, express to Rockville Centre, then all stops to Babylon.
· Leave Penn Station at 1:38 PM, express to Rockville Centre, then all stops to Babylon.
· Leave Penn Station at 2:11 PM, express to Rockville Centre, then all stops to Babylon.
· Leave Penn Station at 2:25 PM, express to Lynbrook, then all stops to Babylon.
· Leave Penn Station at 2:58 PM, stopping at Jamaica, Rockville Centre, then all stops to Babylon.
· Leave Penn Station at 3:31 PM, express to Rockville Centre, then all stops to Babylon.
Far Rockaway Branch
· Leave Penn Station at 3:48 PM, stopping at Valley Stream, then all stops to Far Rockaway.
Port Jefferson Branch (to Huntington)
· Leave Penn Station at 2:08 PM, stopping at Jamaica, Carle Place, then all stops to Huntington.
· Leave Penn Station at 2:29 PM, stopping at Jamaica, New Hyde Park, then all stops to Huntington.
Port Jefferson Branch (to Hicksville)
· Leave Penn Station at 3:24 PM, stopping at Jamaica, Mineola, Westbury and Hicksville.
Port Washington Branch (to Great Neck)
· Leave Penn Station at 3:40 PM, stopping at Woodside, Flushing Main St., then all stops to Great Neck.
Ronkonkoma Branch
· Leave Penn Station at 2:46 PM, stopping at Jamaica, Bethpage, Farmingdale, Wyandanch, then all stops to Ronkonkoma.
WEDNESDAY, DECEMBER 31 (Westbound )
There will be 17 additional westbound trains on New Year's Eve, Wednesday, December 31 between 4:55 PM and 8:36 PM on the Babylon, Montauk, Port Jefferson, Long Beach, Hempstead and Port Washington and Ronkonkoma Branches.
Babylon Branch
· Leave Babylon at 6:20 PM, making all stops to Rockville Centre, then Jamaica and Penn Station.
· Leave Babylon at 7:19 PM, making all stops to Rockville Centre, then Jamaica and Penn Station.
· Leave Freeport at 7:24 PM, stopping at Baldwin, Rockville Centre, Jamaica and Penn Station.
Montauk Branch
· Leave Speonk at 8:03 PM, making all stops to Babylon, then Jamaica and Penn Station.
Port Jefferson Branch
· Leave Huntington at 4:55 PM, stopping at Cold Spring Harbor, Syosset, Hicksville, Jamaica and Penn Station.
· Leave Hicksville at 6:59 PM, making all stops to Jamaica and Penn Station.
· Leave Port Jefferson at 7:15 PM, making all stops to Greenlawn, then Hicksville, Jamaica and Penn Station.
· Leave Hicksville at 7:33 PM, making all stops to Jamaica and Penn Station.
· Leave Huntington at 7:38 PM, making all stops to Jamaica and Penn Station.
· Leave Huntington at 8:29 PM, making all stops to Westbury, then Mineola, Merillon Avenue, New Hyde Park, Jamaica and Penn Station.
Long Beach Branch
· Leave Long Beach at 5:57 PM, making all stops to Lynbrook, then Jamaica and Penn Station.
· Leave Long Beach at 7:25 PM, making all stops to Lynbrook, then Valley Stream, Jamaica and Penn Station.
Hempstead Branch
· Leave Hempstead at 6:48 PM, making all stops to Jamaica and Penn Station.
Port Washington Branch
· Leave Great Neck at 7:07 PM, making all stops to Flushing Main St. and Penn Station.
· Leave Port Washington at 8:36 PM, making all stops to Great Neck, then Bayside and Penn Station.
Ronkonkoma Branch
· Leave Ronkonkoma at 6:24 PM, making all stops to Wyandanch, then Farmingdale, Bethpage, Mineola, Jamaica and Penn Station.
· Leave Ronkonkoma at 8:36 PM, making all stops to Wyandanch, then Farmingdale, Bethpage, Mineola, Jamaica and Penn Station.
NEW YEAR'S DAY, THURSDAY, JANUARY 1 (Eastbound)
The LIRR will be operating on a holiday (weekend) schedule with six additional eastbound trains early New Year's Day.
Babylon Branch
· Leave Penn Station at 1:12 AM stopping at Jamaica, Lynbrook and all stops to Babylon.
Montauk Branch
· Leave Penn Station at 1:24 AM, stopping at Jamaica, Babylon and all stops to Speonk.
Port Jefferson Branch
· Leave Penn Station at 1:15 AM, stopping at Jamaica, Hicksville, and all stops to Port Jefferson.
· Leave Penn Station at 1:30 AM, stopping at New Hyde Park and all stops to Huntington.
Port Washington Branch
· Leave Penn Station at 1:49 AM, stopping at Woodside, Flushing Main St., then all stops to Port Washington.
Ronkonkoma Branch
· Leave Penn Station at 1:43 AM, stopping at Jamaica, Mineola, Hicksville, Bethpage, Farmingdale, Wyandanch and all stops to Ronkonkoma.
Anyway, I have been very skeptical of CC LOCAL's claims of sickness ever since that whole thing with his "cousin" posting as him back in April. This and other behaviors led me to label him as a phoney and a fraud. Well, recently I said that I would accept the good word of another established subtalker if they were to vouch for CC LOCAL's good character. Arrow III stepped forward and did so and because I am a man of my word I accept Arrow III's voucher and am hereby issuing an appology to CC LOCAL for accusing him of faking any illness or other personal problem. I wish him and whatever family members he has a speedy recovery from whatever their ailments in the new year.
Moreover, skpetical as I still might be, I will not hound CC LOCAL on the validity these or any new personal issues in this new year unless he gives me some blatent reason to.
However, I remain quite displeased with CC LOCAL regarding the content and quantity of his posts and moreover, his refusal to accept any critisism whatsoever. Therefore I will continue to voice my displeasure regarding the content of of his posts here on Subtalk.
So in summary, I hereby apologize to CC LOCAL for doubting the validity of his claims of ill health.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Then they will flame you. It's really a wonderful system.
What is a "vato" ?
Eddy Guerrero of WWE uses it often and prompt, esse.
Happy 2004!
Happy New Year Everyone!
Oh, and by the way, I wish a healthy and happy New Year to all.
Definately an interesting sight.
Da Hui
A 1948 PCC from GE, only had it's GOH back in the 1980s, other than that it's about as historic as they come. Didn't take any pics myself, owing to a lack of digital cameras around here, but I'm sure some will turn up from the other participants of the fantrip.
Why are film cameras suddenly unacceptable for transit photography?
Chuck
Welcome to the SubTalk bulletin board at www.nycsubway.org. This board can be used for discussions of rail transit systems worldwide. It is not limited solely to New York City topics,
but please stick to rapid/rail transit issues only.
Off-topic and harassing posts will be removed at the discretion of the management. Please note! This site is not run by MTA New York City Transit!
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
When your questions pry on intrusive, or demeaning of private, personal ("security") & transit purposes,
that's when you're OFF, bub.
Anyway, I think most SubTalkers would disagree with [1. Sights you saw while RIDING the subway/or other RAIL r-a-i-l system.] Everyone is pretty much in agreement that my thread regarding a sweatshop I thought I saw from riding over the Manhattan Bridge was off topic.
Anyway, I think most SubTalkers would disagree with [1. Sights you saw while RIDING the subway/or other RAIL r-a-i-l system.] Everyone is pretty much in agreement that my thread regarding a sweatshop I thought I saw from riding over the Manhattan Bridge was off topic.
TD
This is probably the case for this particular driver.
I have seen people run into the sides of moving trains, especially at night. I do not think the problem should be so bad on the LIRR as it is out here, but I have found that the issue is this:
1) There are red and white reflective stripes at the bottom of the car, right at the eye level of an approaching driver.
2) The reflection of your own headlights on these stripes if very mesmerizing, and you very quickly loose your sense of depth perception.
3) That the gates are red and white, and that they also have flashing lights on them, and that they are at the same level as the protective stripes on the train cars makes any perception of the gates disapear.
--- Therefore it is easy to drive into the side of a train.
I am well pleased to stop 100 to 300 feet away from the crossing gates, and to wait for the train to clear. Trying to 'snuggle up' to the crossing gates in this situation can be dangerous, because your depth perception is negated by the moving train. (Same as it would be for your diital camera.)
Elias
CSX line that goes through Ijamsville, MD, where my aunt lives, doesn't have any gates at all! How scary is that? Getting creamed by a 100-car freight train isn't fun!
"Attention Bethpage and Deer Park Passengers, please do not cross the tracks or in front of the train until the gates are in the upright position. This is for your safety and it's the law. thank You!"
Because of the configuration of these two stations people would frequently run off the train and race to cross the tracks to get tot he parking areas. She would make this announcement nightly but nightly at least one jerk would still cross in front of the train. No, Elias, the problem is one of stupidity and no matter how many safety devices you use and precautions you take, you can never under-estimate the determination and inventiveness of a fool.
Why was this? Couldn't the express have made the west Canal Street its last stop (by switching to local tracks after Prince St, and used the crossover directly after the station?
Julian
The exp. trains would switch to local after Prince Street. They would then stop at the west Canal Street, like a regular local train. They then could either turn around using the crossover south of Canal, or continue into Brooklyn as a local.
Julian
you ment: How do you figure track plans like what you just said?
Theres a crossover south of the Canal Street station (on the local level) that leads to the never used lower level of City hall. Its in the track maps on this website.
And stop using that aol slang and learn some proper english damnit.
Maybe this would finally be an AFFORDABLE option? :)
#3 West End Jeff
For that matter, the LIRR's had no waysides on a LOT of it's territory (they're gone on the PW line, and a lot of the mainline, save for interlockings), and they've had none of these 'incedents'.
This wasn't caused by the signal system, it was caused by an employee violating plenty of rules for some reason. Given the shitty OTP of Acela, I wonder how much pressure there is to run on time, and if that's a factor here. Had the engineer been following proceedure, this wouldn't have happened. He didn't, it did.
I was talking with a Canadian signal engineer on the Maple Leaf and I got into the current American trend toward "Rule 562" operation with signals only at interlockings. When I mentioned that MNRR had taken it a step further and gome to 3 aspect dwarfs at interlockings, he said and I quote "That's crazy".
Of course Canadian railroads are militant practitoners of speed signals with such aspects as "Medium Approach Limited" and "Limited Approach Slow" with all three heads flashing at once, so he might be a little bias.
I was a bit critical of the LIRR earlier using its ASC to enforce both civil and signal speeds, but less so now, as whatever those two heigher ones are (60/70) only get given with a signal status of CLEAR, so there is no confusion of where your speed restriction is comming from. The engineer know's he's diverging from the 60 cab, he sees he's entering a clear block from the signal, he's good to go. In case of ASC failure bulitin order could have him approach said interlockings at 60 mph.
Amtrak had the problem of having its clear be equal to 120mph, so it needed to invent the "Cab Speed" aspect and Cab Signal (flashing green) for use over HST's. It's just about the biggest hack there is, but in practice it should be pretty straight forward. If you want me to try to explain it I can but its nuts.
What really gets my hackles raised with Amtrak is its treatment of Approach Limited. For both Approach Med and Approach Slow the engineer is given a 15mph leeway. Approach Limited always got folded into the approach med cab signal. Well, now Amtrak rolls out 6 new cab signals one of which being Approach Limited. Well, do the engineers get the 15mph leeway? Nope, its Approach Limited 45. That's even worse is that there is a Cab Speed 80 and a Cab Speed 60. Ditch the Cab Speed 60 and replace it with Approach Limited 60. When your blocks are 2 miles lone and your trains get hit with a diverging route, that 1.75 miles at 45mph really cuts deep. And worse, its not like you're behind someone and not going anywhere anyway, you have a nice clear route ahead of your and are stuck at 45. It really ties up fluid operations. On non-cab signaled lines the Engineer usually maintains linespeed until the interlocking is in sight and then slows down. At the very least the cab signaled lines should give the same 15mph leeway for LIMITED it does for MEDIUM and SLOW.
This actually puts Amtrak first on my slap around with a big foam hand list. MNRR is close behind with their WalMart signal heads.
The bigger hack seems to be American signalling practice, period. It was great 100 years ago when trains were slow, electronics didn't exist, and crashes were a fact of life. Today, what more does the engineer really need to know beyond how fast he can go and if he's diverging or not? Not much, IMHO. and tha'ts info that a cab signal system can deliver and use, and present MUCH more clearly than all of this approach this, limited that stuff. Hey, itwas great 100 years ago. Times changed. maybe it's time to look at signalling again...
You ain't see what they got over in the UK. Their whole Pure Route Signaling shit has gotten them in a whole world of hurt. They use every trick in the book to try to get the drivers to slow down (route arrows, signals held at Red, etc)...except enforce speeds in the rulebooks. No no, wait, on their "advance apporach" the driver must slow to 75mph and I think that their HST's need a special 5 block clear to go 140. Remember, that their blocks are like .5 miles long too. I think that some signals are now comming with "suggested" speeds, but you'll never see an honest to god rule about it.
Today, what more does the engineer really need to know beyond how fast he can go and if he's diverging or not? Not much, IMHO. and tha'ts info that a cab signal system can deliver and use, and present MUCH more clearly than all of this approach this, limited that stuff.
You're thinking too along the lines of LIRR style passenger running. LIRR trains can stop on a dime, they don't need to worry about "train handling". They are either short or all MU's. Tightlock couplers and no slack action. When you're piloting a freight trains with 196 cars up and down grades knowing the track condition 2 blocks ahead of you is vital. NORAC aspects provide both block occupancy and routespeed information (not an exact route, but a speed forwhatever route you're on). If you're on a freight train you need to take immediate and vastly different actions at the distant and sometimes at the point the distant comes into view depending on if you need to stop or just slow down by the next signal. Why do you think that on the cab signaled freight routes the train's don't come witn ATC? It's because the sledge hammer ATC system would lead to slack induced derailments or engineers getting their braking air pissed away resulting in a runaway train. Engineers and freight engineers especially need to know two things, what do I do now, what do I do at the next signal. Cab signals as they stand only tell someone what they need to do now. We either need to increase the number of cab signals (al la Amtrak) or provide full wayside signals at key locations to supplement the engineer's knowledge (al la everyone but Metro North).
Notice how both Amtrak and MNRR have very restrictive rules regarding the handling of freight on their systems. There are a number of reasons including rail damage, but one of them, especially in the case of the MNRR 15mph MEDIUM speed for freights, is that the signaling system cannot guarentee safe operations otherwise. While all of us living along the NEC can develop a fairly passenger centric view of things, once you get out in the other 90% of the country you'll see the millions of highway truckloads of freight being moved profitably from origin to destination. Rail freight is just as important as passenger rail and sacrificing one for the other is counter productive. You need to get your head out of the European clouds. Germany just ran its heaviest ever freight train at the astounding weight of 6,000 tonnes. Well, over here 20,000 tonne trains are an every day occurance. BTW, here's an interesting factiod for ya. Did you know that cab signals in Germany, the ones you are always touting, are only in operation on the high speed lines? Moreover, a grest percent of the railroads in Germany are signaled manually without track circuts. I'm not talking Form D here, but guys in towers with double wire pull semaphores and crank operated block devices. There are over 2000 manual tower still in operation in Germany with about 4000-5000 active towers all together.
Today, what more does the engineer really need to know beyond how fast he can go and if he's diverging or not?
To reitterate, engineers on unresponsive trains need to know how fast they need to be going at the next signal as well as how fast they can currently go.
I agree with this statement. I was at a PTC (positive train control) workshop two years ago and I got into a discussion with some signalling people about how you stop the train once you notice that it's about to pass a STOP signal and you're running downgrade with a poorly loaded train. Basically that you'll need to stick a derail in the track and hope for the best, because if you dump the air you'll end up with a pile up which might even be worse than running thru the switch and have the train come to a stop. Allegedly, as a part of this guy's research (and he's pretty high up in the FRA) he went out and rode the Clinchfield (I think) over a number of runs... and he pointed out that the good engineers never, ever touch the air when running intermodals. They basically only use the air to stop -- because of the grades, everything else is done with the dynamic. If your train is going at like 22mph and you want to slow down to 15mph, there's no hope in hell that you'll be able to do that with air. Basically, you'll have to go to either EPB (electo-pneumatic brakes) or you'll have to teach the PTC apparatus how to use the dynamic brakes, which ain't easy.
PTC on freight trains has got a long way to go yet.
once you get out in the other 90% of the country you'll see the millions of highway truckloads of freight being moved profitably from origin to destination.
I disagree with the word "profitably" in that sentence. Only a small portion of freight is truely profitable these days. The rest simply breaks even or make a loss, depending on how you do the capital cost allocation.
a great percent of the railroads in Germany are signaled manually without track circuits.
That is true, and has been pointed out that track circuits are not necessarily needed in a CBTC installation, since they detect so few rail breaks anyway, and never detect rail kinks. Germany's low speed lines is one of the cited examples.
I don't know what lines you're talking about, but the lines I am referring to have just plain manual block signaling via block device and semaphore. That's just out of the 1980's.
Track circuts are necessary for more than just broken rail. They detect flooded track, loose cars drifted out of sidings or yards, motor vehicles on the tracks (which happens more often than you think), open non-interlocked switches, etc. They also provide a very easy way for anyone (employee or emergency official) to signal to the dispatcher/train that there is some problem with the track. All one needs to do is jumper the rails and it is detected instantly by approaching trains and the dispatcher.
By the way -- signalling issues is not really the way to judge a railroad. If Amtrak thought the MNRR system is superior for its purposes, it would have adopted them, cash permitting. And my understanding is that they did go to zero waysides between New Haven and Boston. They know what they are doing, they are just laden with old plant.
AEM7
The arguement here is not between intermediate or no intermediate waysides or cab signals or no cab signals, it is if the home signals should dislay the full range of aspects and if those home signals should be accompanied with wayside distants.
MNRR says no cause they don't want to fork out the $$. Amtrak says yes because it is a valuable redundancy.
Please, tell me why it is a good thing not to provide the Engineer with MORE infomration about where he's going?
the old system with waysides gave us several crashes due to simmular rules infractions.
Are you talking about waysides without cab signals at all as was installed on the Hudson and Harlem lines?
let record show that Amtrak with wayside signals has had a lot of close calls and actual dammage from slight rules infractions.
The recond can show it when you actually provide examples or how wayside signals in the presence of cab signals added to an accident.
ACES despite being downward compatible with older systems is only as good as the employees handeling the equipment. and with Amtraks one size fits all engineer training accidents will happen.
What does that have to do with weather or not home signals can display the complete 14 aspect set or just 3?
Frankly, MNRR has already admitted to the faulures in its own system by needing to install the route indicators at MO and WOODHAVEN.
I'm just sick of railroads trading lightbulbs for safety and efficiency.
If you could prove to me why not having full signals at interlockings is somehow better hey, I'd accept that. I'm here to learn. But if you're just going to be a pompus asshole like Train Dude who thinks that his world should be taken as gosble due to some inate sense of superriority then where does that leave me or the rest of Subtalk?
I have made a valid arguement, what the fuck does it matter who I am and what my background is. If I am so wrong why don't you prove it to the world. Knock me down with a well formed logical arguement as to why getting Cab Speed is better than Medium Clear or how same could prevent accidents.
I have very little signal expertise but I must agree with your assessment here. Back in September, during a driving rainstorm, my AM LIRR train lost P-Wire enroute. After the conductor (a close friend of mine) cut out the EP cocks on the head 4 cars, the engineer was able to operate from the 5th. My friend was flagging from the head car. We were ordered to operate below 40 MPH to jamaica. There were two specific locations where we had to get 'Absolute' signal aspects. In the rain, virtually every signal looked like it was blinking. Even with the two of us watching, we had a great deal of difficulty distinguishing signal aspects. This was equally difficult as we approached jamaica with all of the dwarf signals.
I agree with this statement. Complex interlocking signals was also behind the Ladbroke Grove accident on British Rail back in 1999 (I think). A recently qualified engineer overran a signal, failing to stop and continued for some 700 yds past the stop signal. Apparently the problem was visibility as well as a confusing array of gantry signals on a 6-track mainline.
But that fact is no reason to go to cheap ass "Wal-Mart" signals. The reason for going to Wal-Mart signals is really cost-driven, and the true cost of that decision is that when CSS is dead, MNCW can only operate at 40mph. So capacity is very low during a CSS failure. I'm sure they calculated the probability of this and costed it all out, and decided that tall signals wasn't worth the marginal benefit in case of a CSS failure.
AEM7
You can display 14 speeds or Go/No-Go at the home signal and still route the train to the wrong track.
So Mike are you advocating true ROUTE signaling here? Or do dwarves on mainline tracks just offend your esthetics?
I believe that DRN is argueing from a position of personal bias rather than reason. He thinks the MNRR system is superrior because he's worked there for god knows how long and nobody is going to tell him otherwise. I am going to stick with what I learned from the operator at SS75 who was pissed that he couldn't display a Restricting for power change moves.
Is that true? Or partly true?
I understand the point and, if I remember my simple physics correctly, a crash at 30 mph is 4x as severe as one at 15 mph (the square of the increase in speed).
But ... not saying it's unimportant but, how dangerous is it really for two trains to be heading toward each other at 15 mph, in terms of being able to stop before a collision? Elevated local trains on most older lines used to run on visual rules, ditto most older light rail, including on single track. Autos on suburban 2-way streets with parked cars manuever past each other all the time, usually going 25-30 mph each.
In Scotland there is an extensive system of "single track" roads for autos with turnouts to pass. No signals, seems to work, and you could often reach speeds of 60km/h or more between turnouts.
Granted, trains are not autos, and a single significant rail accident would cause an uproar over operating practices, while we more or less shrug off all but the most severe highway accidents.
I'm not arguing in any way against more sophisticated signalling systems, but I've long wondered whether we hold rail safety to an incredibly high standards, while we don't pay that much attention to the fact that we have 40-ton trucks (assuming everybody's operating legal) hurtling round our highways, controlled only by highway signs and No-Doze.
That all comes down to the conditions and the mindset of the engineer. Trains have vastly different handling properties and sightlines are inconsistant. Barring total computer automation, signaling systems are granular. The engineer needs to make the final interperitations as to how he should be handling his train. As I noted in my other post, there is a big differance b/t moving at SLOW and RESTRICTED speed. Moreover there is a big differance between moving at MEDIUM speed (30 mph) and MEDIUM prepared to stop at next signal. That next signal could be visable from 5000 feet away, or, it could be around a curve with a 500 foot sightline.
I will admit that the terms "1/2 vision" and "prepared to stop" are highly subjective, but with proper training Engineers will be able to follow these rules. This system has been in place for about 100 or so years and I feel it has proven to be highly successful.
Movements at restricted Speed must apply the following three methods of operation.
1) Control of the movement to permit stopping in the range of 1/2 vision sort of [crap including other trains or railroad equipment fouling the track]
2) Looking out for Broken Rail
3) Not exceeding 20 mph outside interlocking limits, 15 mph within.
When you pass a RESTRICTING signal or get a RESTRICTING cab independent of a wayside signal you move at Restricted speed. YEs, your might be closing with another train at speeds approaching 40 mph, but because you and the other engineer are prepared to stop within one half vision you should both make a safe stop nose to nose. When you get a RESTRICTING aspect you aren't moving at 15 or 20 mph all willy nilly, you are moving as to stop w/in 1/2 vision, which, depending on track and visibility can be as little as 1 or 2 mph.
Yes...the trains COULD hit eachother moving at 30 or 40 mph. There is nothing physically preventing the engineers from doing such a thing. Then again there is also nothing physically preventing an Engineer from cutting out the ATC and running the train as he sees fit. Engineers, including yourself, are federally certified professionals. In almost all cases they can and should be trusted to operate their trains in a safe and efficient maner.
Call it a design failure of the cab signaling system but there are times when trains need to move at slow (15mph) speed, but not Restricted speed and the cab signal displays a Restricting aspect all the same. This is why you need the fully descriptive home signals so the Engineer knows to move at restricted speed (1/2 vision) or Slow speed (15mph).
Not quite. Rule 552a states that if cab and fixes signals do not conform, the more restrictive indication shall covern the movement.
However, Rule 279 regarding Cab Signal Aspects presents a chart listing which fixed signals conform with what cab signals. Slow Clear, Slow Approach, Restricting, Stop and Proceed and Stop all conform with the Restricting cab signal aspect.
Because there is no inconformity, the fixed signal governs the movement of the train. This means that for slow speed signals the Engineer dosen't have to stop w/in 1/2 vision and can blow around blind curves at...15mph, Woo.
The speed at slow speed and restricted speed are same on Metro North.
we do not operate at max of 20, but visiting Amtrak equipment is set for 20 max in restricted cab.
if you had waysides or not the two speeds are still maximum the same. the defenition just changes a bit.
and despite the Cabsignal of Amtrak train allowing 20 mph on a no code signal(restricted/slow/yardspeed/etc) or however you want to call it its still max 15 on Metro North.
At no point am I challenging what you say about the MNRR rulebook. I am finding fault with the rulebook itself.
Where on MNRR is Slow speed used BTW? Terminal interlockings?
MNRR swings the traffic (FR poles N or R via the line circuit), and then that changes the direction the track circuits feed, right? The train bucking the direction of the block is shunting any code being sent to it and so must be talked into the block.
TA is like Gellapegos Island!
thanx for the info
And I am more than willing to accept criticism when it comes MY way.
DRN is a Metro North professional. Surprise surprise but there are differing points of view in the rail industry and I feel that after comparing the points of view that Metro North comes up wanting. DRN might feel the opposite way and I engourage him to explain why he thinks NORAC and the LIRR systems suck.
But surely that dosen't mean we can't discuss it and then agitate for change. You know NORAC accepts suggestions for its rulebooks, which has led to quite a number of pointless rules (like that diverging route TSR sign) due to people just wanting to say they got a rule in the book.
BTW, I don't think I said the MNRR rulebook sucked, it was just paranoid and inefficient. You presented as if you felt that the MNRR rulebook and all its more strict rules were somehow necessary and I was wondering why you felt that way. I wastrying to engage you in a debate. If you really just don't care one way or that other that's fine I'll leave you alone.
you read the Norac book but could probably not pass a rules class were most rules are suplemented or changed by Timetable.
Depends on if the class was for the Amtrak NEC dated Aug 2002 or not.
So far, MN's safety record speaks for itself - their 'paranoid' view of things has given them a system that's by far safer than Amtrak, and on par with the equally (if not more so) 'paranoid' LIRR. in short, the system's doing what it's supposed to do...
MNRR is great unless you're Amtrak or a freight railroad. I had to spend 4 years putting up with the Connecticut Crawl and let me tell you I got sick of it real fast.
Informative, annoying, and cheap. What more could you ask for?
Three other previews:
2004 Stillwell Reopening
2005 Complete Stillwell Open
Complete Second Avenue Subway
Complete Second Avenue Subway
Posssible colors to be used may be magenta or light blue.
Bill "Newkirk"
No, look closely. He made it a lighter shade of blue.
Yes, I saw that it was, but some computers, perhaps those with limited colors might not see a difference.
Elias
Ohhhhh Noooo! The "N" can easily switch to the express track out of the 60th Street tunnel. Besides, it would be too much service for that area of manhattan, while the "W" struggles by itself. That won't be fair! The "N" must stay in Astoria with the "W"
N Bwy
But they fear you. No one is saying it out loud.
Complete Second Avenue Subway
Nice maps. But you are missing a bit of the (Q) under Central Park.
Great maps Darkside
What program do you use/how do you draw the map? Is there a vector, non-bitmap format of an existing one? I could see using Adobe Illustrator to do it.
That must have taken a lot of work. How on earth did you align it so neatly!?
You're a brave man.
Nice map, dude.
Also, the E terminates at Jamaica Center - Parsons/Archer. Granted some trains do operate to 179th during rush hours, but that's a part time operation.
I've used Mike Calcagno's maps as base map and there is Jamaica Center
named as Parsons Blvd. I didn't made any changes to the names, except
some shortens to get space.
That's what the service guide is for.
But on the real map, the black circles for the local stops will be half-circles and will be only on the yellow line. Look at the local stops on the Eastern Parkway line for an example.
new route are
11 via flushing
12 13 via westside
10 14 via lexington
And posibily additional route for future 2nd Ave line..X or Y.
OTOH, I have heard that the R-142/A's have a program for (8) LEXINGTON AV LCL-BROOKLYN LOCAL-TO ATLANTIC AV. If that is true, then only the R-62's and a handful of R-62A's don't have it.
I wasn't at the meeting, so I don't know what was said. The slide presentation, however, specifically states, "Existing loop track retained for storage."
It's not your fault, but there are 2 loop tracks. So if the existing loop track will be used for storage, what about the inner loop track? Will there be an alteration of midday, evening and weekend #5 service that use the inner loop as well? Some unanswered questions here.
I don't think they'll demolish half the tunnel. Most likely, use of the inner loop will remain unchanged, and the outer loop will be used for layups and emergency reroutes.
Not to mention the Fan Trips too, always a blast.
I'm guessing the latter :). Neither option requires removal of the loop.
When the MTA first went to the Feds, they envisioned a three-track terminal. Since then, they have decided that the preferred configuration is two-tracks, built beneath the loop tracks. The federal approval was not tied to a single design. No one lied. This post-Robert Moses process is continuing along according to federal and state law.
Not that the MTA is above reproach. (See 2 Broadway.) We should follow the process along closely and make sure that the documents are accurate, that legitimate concerns are addressed, and they don't try to slip something past us.
I have seen comments on this site about other bottlenecks on the line that limit frequency on the 7th Avenue Local. It is not as though we want to run 90 second headways, and rebuilding South Ferry is fix that will allow it.
Sorry, I don't buy it for a minute.
Until a new bulletin was issued a week ago, dwell times weren't long at Rector. Passengers were given a chance to walk through the train past the C/R's position. The cynic in me sees the new bulletin, which requires the C/R to keep his cab door locked (for "safety" reasons, even though C/R's on routes like the C, which pass through much more dangerous parts of the city, are required to keep their doors open at all time), as a capacity-cutting measure instituted specifically to force this argument to work.
Besides, the alternate plan that many of us have proposed is to extend the existing platform and add exits but to otherwise leave the station alone. If that's done, all cars will platform and nobody will have to move from car to car.
As for the gap fillers, they add a few seconds to the dwell time. Big deal.
There was no Q&A at the hearings, but I would guess that they will have to respond to any comments about a loop being faster to turn back than a two-track stub.
No matter. From the latest incarnation of http://www.mta.info/capconstr/sft/planned.htm: "The overall design of the station will provide capacity for up to 24 trains per hour." The current design provides capacity for up to 30 tph, as long as trains aren't required by bulletin to lose time at Rector. Question answered.
I have seen comments on this site about other bottlenecks on the line that limit frequency on the 7th Avenue Local.
Which bottlenecks would those be? The only other bottleneck I'm aware of is the north terminal, but there are two alternate north terminals. With enough manpower, some trains could terminate at Dyckman or 137th. There is nothing currently constraining the line's capacity south of those points -- which is fine, since peak ridership is between 137th and Times Square.
There are no alternate south terminals. All local service must go to South Ferry. (Turning some trains through the old loop is impractical and quite embarrassing.) Before anyone suggests sending some locals to Brooklyn, capacity in Brooklyn is already constrained by the braindead service pattern through Rogers interlocking.
It is not as though we want to run 90 second headways, and rebuilding South Ferry is fix that will allow it.
No, but we might want to run 30 tph, either now or at some point in the future, which the current South Ferry will permit. Current service tops out at (scheduled) 20 tph, which I can say from personal experience is inadequate (trains are more crowded than NYCT rush hour loading guidelines call for; dwell times at each local station are upwards of a minute). Do you really think it makes sense to spend $400 million (even of somebody else's money) to reduce the capacity of an overcrowded line by 20%?
But that's beside the point. Why is NYCT afraid to present the facts at a meeting along the busy part of the line? (Each station between 42nd and 96th is busier than South Ferry, and since the busy stations are clustered together, the many passengers who use them have to share space.)
Would this allow a higher number of TPH over the busiest section or would turning some trains short foul up the line?
With the local tracks outside the express tracks, there's nowhere that locals could possibly turn between 96th and Chambers.
If the Cortlandt shell had been built as a three-track station with two platforms (like Whitehall), that would have been our answer. But it wasn't.
"Turning some trains through the old loop is impractical and quite embarrassing."
But anything beats a theoretical upper limit of 24 tph in that actual practice may yield poorer results. Poorer results than the present in terms of service to the upper west side? It would not surprise me if Rector St. becomes one of two south terminals for the 1. And decades from now CBTC signalling installation will be put in to bring service levels to what they could handle with the old loop.
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
Just one last question:
What was the font used for the stop names? Trying to get the font exactly right has been driving me nuts!
Thanks,
Julian
You mean this kinda thing?
(Here's a small preview):
New Trains:
(T) Second ave local: Bedford Park Blvd-Hanover Square, all times
Second ave express: 125th St and Broadway-57th St, 5am till 10pm, weekdays
(S) 125th street shuttle: 125th st and Lexington ave-125th st and Broadway, rush hours
(U) 3rd Ave local: ??? in Bronx to Grand St, all times (express in Manhattan, local in Bronx)
(P) Broadway Local: Whitehall St-125th st and 2nd ave, rush hours.
Julian
:Second ave express: 125th St and Broadway-57th St, 5am till 10pm, weekdays
Sorry about that,
Julian
I used "Small Font" either 7 or 8 point. The problem is when I upgraded to XP, Small Font changes a bit for either size.
Basically...try drawing a line with each circle... then type different kind of font/size to see if you like it (make sure it is readable) I know, it's time consuming but give it a try!
Michael Calcagno
I'm still having old "Smnall Font" If you want the font file i can mail
it to you. Do you think the maps are canditates for map section of
nycsubway.org?
Yeah I noticed the lines are thinner.
I still have the same SMALL FONT file as the new one so it doesn't make any difference.
Do I think your maps are candidate for nycsubway.org ... that's not for me to answer. However, as I said before ... I encourage you or others to ask David Pirmann if he can post your maps on his website ... that's his decision totally. I'm just like you, I'm also a contributor of my maps to his site for all to enjoy.
Good luck,
Michael Calcagno
N Bwy
N Bwy
N Broadway
N Bwy
N BWY
N/W Broadway
N Bwy
Firstly I think that there should be a key (legend), explaining such things as the following:
1. The meaning of a double line (as on the #6, the #7 and the D),
2. The difference between black stations (local) and white stations (express),
3. The difference between black numbers and gray numbers at stations (black means full-time, gray means part-time service).
Secondly, you have separated the expresses on three-track lines, which adds clarity. But if you do this on three-track routes, why not on four-track routes? That should make things even clearer and it would convey more important information. [In many cases the presence four tracks may be inferred from the presence of both black stops and white stops, but if this is the rule it is not always clear where the four track line segment begins and ends.] However if you cannot find enough room to draw separate full-time local and express lines, I don't think you should draw separate part-time local and express lines.
I am not clear about which stops are local and express. For instance the #4 runs express in Manhattan but local in the Bronx, so should the #4 Bronx stations be shown as local (as in your map) or express (as in Michael Calcagno's map)?
Thirdly, I don't see any need to show line numbers and letters beside lines, as on Manhattan Bridge; the small line numbers at each station can and do tell the whole story. If you use line number symbols they would better be confined to line terminals.
And finally here is one small detail: on the Metropolitan Avenue (M) line, I don't see why any stops are shown in white.
The official MTA subway map is open to most of the same criticisms as these!
I used Mike Calcagno'S map and start making a fantasy map out of it.
When i tried to add SAS there was no space and so i redraw it with
this design. On my fantsay map the (M) is a Brooklyn peak express and
so had the (M) express stops. When I made the previews i only replaced
the south of the L and forgot the rest. Update is in work, hope on Monday
it's ready.
The 4 haves in Bx on the MTA map local stops and so i've done it also on
my map.
I have some friends who are all thumbs ... have been getting them to paint them red, black & blue
Had things been better planned, it might not have taken as long to work on the Lady in Red. These are learning experiences. I'll do things differently the next time around.
There are some small items that still need to be worked out, but I'll get to it as time permits.
-Stef
-Stef
-Stef
-Stef
How are the door chimes for Nancy coming along?
Here's an R-9 question: how many of those circuits protected by cab breakers are trainline? When rousing a 10-car D train, for example, did you have to turn breakers on in every single cab? Did you also check the side destination signs to make sure the right ones were backlit? I know you have to set the reverser to forward for them to light up.
How about a race to the old swimming hole thru the farmers field strewn with cow flops ?
When prepping, you'd check each cab and make sure that all breakers were set, check for tripped ones and find out why they were off. So yeah, you checked the whole train as part of your preps, the momentary kicked on the heat where required, and you'd check and note if your side signs were there or not. Rare was the situation where a pair was "flipped," and if so you'd check the cab in the #2 end, insert key and correct it.
The more important thing though was checking the floor and making sure the handbrakes were released or it could be a VERY bad day. :)
But if the wrong sign lit up, you DID have to "key it straight" in the affected car.
In all seriousness though, in school car, they told us them was breakers and NOT to click the springy thing and open it up.
And what is that?
-Stef
-Stef
Regards,
Jimmy
????????
Hey, Flash: The members who ride on the RT cars don't pay anything else just to ride the cars -- they're members after all! Now, if someone wants to be piloted down the line in the cars, then there is a special fee...so don't make it sound like the RT crews run the cars w/o regard to the 'power spike'.
But don't go today, the brochure says the only two days they are closed in the period are Christmas and New Year's Day.
Regards,
T.L.
(Housewares....)
It would be difficult because one would have to either reload or use two revolvers.
What about bullets that aren't used, like the blue K, the yellow S, and the green 8? What happens when they start using them? Do they have to pay YOU royalties?
The following line bullets have been applied for: 2, 6, E, F, G, N, although for the present, they've only applied for them as in use for passenger services. Ditto F and 1 above.
For the registered marks, a typical registration reads like this: "G & S: Clothing, namely tee-shirts, sweatshirts, tank tops, caps, socks, ties, jackets and underwear."
So you get the idea. I really would worry about this. Trademark Law general requires them to defend their mark, if they get wind of infringement.
Secondly, its like no one has anything positive to say here. If want anything from the store, be my guest and buy, if not just don't say anything. That is the problem in this board, everyone spends more time find fault than saying "Good Job" "Good Luck" or anything positive.
Thanks to those with positive comments and positive wishes
Regads,
Trevor Logan
TransiTALK Transportation Media Group
www.cafepress.com/transitalk
Or, "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure."
You need a photo permit, obtained from the MBTA's Marketing Department office at 10 Park Plaza (State Transportation Building); open weekdays 9-4. The permits are free, and they are valid for six months. The receptionist who handles this is extremely friendly, and is happy to help railfans who want one. Just remember -- no flashes, no tripods.
No, you must go in person.
Think about it for a minute. If there's rust, which one of the three is the only choice?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Chuck Greene
Is it something that would be appropriate to describe on Subtalk?
1. Within the city, from about University Center/Mt. Royal to Convention Center station, which probably spans about 8-9 city blocks, I can always walk faster than the light rail.
2. MTA Maryland has non varying 20 min headways on all their light rail lines, no matterwhat the time or day. On Feb 1, they are planning to cut down their weekend service to 30 min headways, which I think is going from insane headways to very insane headways.
3. The light rail vehicles board from street level but have steps to climb up on, which slows down the boarding process
4. Single tracking in some areas
5. Sunday service begins at 10AM
6. Many of the stations outside of the city are located along the side of a road and hidden from view.
7. Within the city, the vehicles always get bogged down by red lights. Signal preemption would help this system dramatically.
MTA Maryland's light rail system is a joke.
Re: 5. Sunday service begins at 10 AM:
I was flabbergasted last year when I arrived at Baltimore Penn Station around 8:30 via Amtrak from Philly and learned that the service wasn't even close to starting.
The only proper use of a bus is as a feeder to a rail line. Period.
Chuck Greene
Unless you mean rapid as in bus versus commuter/intercity rail or subway, in that case there's no doubt that the latter is faster. If a trolley or trolley bus or even a regular bus has to travel in a lane which is shared by car traffic, it can only go as fast as the speed of traffic allows.
"Why?"
"Because the streetcar controls the traffic, whereas the traffic controls the bus (at that time trolley busses). The bus looses control when it pulls over to the curb and has to fight its way back onto the traffic lane"
Chuck Greene
How many times do we have to go over this?
Firstly, a trolleybus is not in any way limited in freedom of lateral movement by it's wires, it can encompass 3 lanes, provided the wires go down the center lane. Certainly that is plenty, since there are few roads wider than that, and I can think of few scenarios that would find a bus having to detour into either the fourth lane, the shoulder, or on-coming traffic. Remember, this is Philadelphia we are talking about, the Philadelphia police and PA state police at much more apt to just close an entire freeway or roadway in the event of a major accident than let traffic creep by on the other side of the road.
And of course your assertion that "my hands are tied behind my back flexibility-wise sometimes with a ... trolley bus because your vehicle is completely stuck above an overhead and it cannot manuver around freely unless theres a overhead or rail crossover nearby." is completely false, as the picture below demonstrates:
The trolleybus in the foreground with the red express sign has clearly experienced a mechanical failure, prompting the local to have to pass it. With the express's poles down, there is nothing to prevent the local from passing, it's one lane clearance with it's pole is plenty to keep it from sideswiping the dead express. No switching equipment was needed, no tow truck was needed to pull the local around the stalled express, and the (on these ETBs, nonexsistant) batteries never needed to be used. The total delay for the passengers on the stalled bus would be no more than that for a dead diesel bus, for the passengers on the local passing the dead bus, maybe a minute delay while the B/O made sure he wasn't going to sideswipe the unfortunate express. Remember that on a narrow city street an OOS diesel bus, unencumbered though you claim it to be, could very easily pose every bit the problem an OOS ETB, Chestnut Street in Philadelphia is just one street that'd be choked by a D40LF or Neoplan Artic laying down and dying there.
Now, admittedly a trolley or LRV would be in considerably more dire straits should it find itself in a similar situation, however I can tell you that it is remarkably simple to rectify. I've now seen a good dozen malfunctions on SEPTA's Subway Surface line that required the removal of a non-functioning vehicle from service, most of them were remarkable uneventful. In all cases a trolley behind or in front of it (usually behind) would lock couplers with the misbehaving trolley and push it either to the nearest siding, spur, or even to 49th St depot, should that happen to be the closest place. Most of them were over within 5 minutes, before even 2 following trolleys could pile up behind it (this is of course assuming it's on the main trunk, between 49th and Woodland, where the 11 and 36 meet and 13th and Juniper, the loop terminal for all five lines). Only one of these incidents resulted in a long delay, that being when 9088's brakes locked at 13th and Juniper and clogged the entire line. There most of the delay was due to incompetance on the part of the crew, there is a spur at the end of the platform and it would have been easy to shove it in there and fix it there, but instead they decided to fix it where it died, 100 feet from the spur.
Of course modern LRV lines with crossovers and spurs located at more convienient spots, with lines configured for limited single tracking when a train on the other track goes OOS are even better suited to dealing with such an occurance than an older trolley system like Philadelphia or Toronto.
Of course the last part of your post, the 'trolleys don't work in a modern city, blah blah blah' part, is as much BS now as it was 50 years when National City Lines was taking ad space on TV and Radio to blather about the same issue. SEPTA's subway surface lines are living proof that that hypothesis has been, and is currently, false. So long as the service is frequent enough, and the penalties for parking on the tracks stiff enough, then there is no reason that a trolley cannot do at least an equal job of moving people as a bus, and given it's electric propulsion and frequently higher capacity, it will do a better job. Also in the 1940s, philadelphia had a system that provided every bit the routing flexibility our bus system currently offers.
If every line in philadelphia were trolley, then the routing flexibility would at least be equal to that that our buses currently have. I would recommend that you check the Toronto Transit Commission track map for their streetcar department located here. That system supports 11 routes, and as can easily be seen, provides for ample rerouting capabilities, only slightly fewer than a bus system would allow.
Unless he finally goes to jail first. Then eddie can do a bail-out or help out for some more voter support.
Reasons to go to jail, involving high level fraud and theft, a short teaser of just two reasons:
If you want any area rezoned to put up a business or anything else done, you have to contribute to his campaign fund Via White, or else you will be kicked out of the city.
Street's definition of disadvantaged minorities who get favorable contracts to run vendors in stadiums:
Only if you're black and have a giant house in the 'burbs making $1500 a week, but you know the admin personally, so you dont' need to complete any paperwork.
and fast forwarding, the man's a disgusting racist, listen to his quotes. It's a little thicker than giving his family members 200k a year jobs. Even the good ol' boy system isn't that blantant.
What media source has been brainwashing you for the past 5 years anyway that the man hasn't done anything wrong?
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
Just out of curiosity, I wonder how many of these alleged illegal activities were perpetrated by Street himself, and not just lesser people in his administration without his knowing.
Street had some huge shoes to fill following Eddie, but I wouldn't really consider him any worse than previous mayors from Goode on back. Philadelphia politics can't come up with anyone better to run, and many Democrats in Philadelphia (myself included) aren't huge fans of Street.
I got really pissed off in 2001 when they sent an settled at the last moment. I mean the SEPTA Strike is a Triennial tradition here in Philly. Oh man, that 1999 strike sure brings back memories...like when picketers blocked the NEC at Cornwalls Heights. And that union leader with the bad teeth always on TV.
I don't remember any problems in the regional rail lines during the times I took them though, to my surprise. Always expecting a sympathy strike. Unless I'm thinking of an earlier strike.
Let's hope they settle without another fare increase. It was six years between $1.60 an $2.00 even. Hopefully, they'll avoid bumping the fares up again, and also avoid any major shutdowns (They even TOUCH the Spur, and their heads will roll!)
For those interested…
The building of the Luas light-rail system has been ongoing for several years now. No start date has yet been announced. Currently, the system consists of two distinct routes, Line A between Connolly Station and Tallaght (on all new alignment) and Line B between St. Stephen’s Green and Sandyford (which is on the original Dublin, Wicklow & Wexford Rwy. route).
There is a pictorial of the progressing work at: www.allaboutbuses.com/luas
Official site: www.luas.ie
(Ironically, Luas means “speed” but the top speed of the trams is under 45 mph. Happy New Year to all…)
About as ironic as the "rapid" in NYC rapid transit.
Well, by NY subway standards, that would be fast indeed.
Capacity:- The basic 30 metre tram can carry up to approximately 235 persons - 60 of whom will be seated. Tram extensions and frequency can be combined to offer a wide range of line capacities.<<<<<><<<<<<<<<<<<
Alstom makes some of the most beautiful trams in the world. I ride the Hudson Bergen light rail and those Citadis trams put my trams to shame! I can assure you, those tram extensions will be needed once the system is up and running.
The tram is fairly low off the ground which is why you don't want the driver to speed over 45mph! An accident with a motor vehicle could do an extensive amount of damage.
The only thing I regret is the system seems to run within the transit system already established and now expend beyond the Metro system.
Today’s Houston Chronicle has a bunch of articles and pictures.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I dont' get these editorials though talking badly about the left-turn situation at the medical center. Green arrow, GO into left turn lane, Red X means get out of the way. What's the problem? No wonder 4 out of 5 accidents were SUV's I guess.
Anyhow, I'm hoping for an Amtrak rail sale for feburary and no unplanned expenses. :)
"There was also difficulty for people trying to get on trains at the central portion of the line because the trains were already packed with people.
One Metro authority said theye are considering extending the free rides today because of the big turnout.
Metro has buses running to shuttle people back to where they get on the trains. "
I'm surprised they didn't lay down on the tracks to ruin the grand opening also.
Seriously, apart from the transit, Dallas has very little going for it. Flat as a pancake and competing with LA for the sprawl award.
If you want scenery, go to Austin. It’s really nice around there.
That's exactly how I felt when they opened up the Hudson Bergen Lightrail. Bus service in Bayonne is horrible during the weekends, evenings and holidays. Yet the lightrail is operational every day of the week with a 15 minute headway tops! There was a time when I wanted to move away from Bayonne but not anymore. The lightrail really gives me access to all parts of the city every day of the week including evenings. The Houston lightrail will change their lives and if you look at ridership for the HBLR, it will start off slowly but increase as the time goes by. I have no doubt this Lightrail will be successful.
>>>>>John Sedlak, a Metro vice president who oversaw the line's construction, said the trains "are going to bring people to public transit that have never used it before." <<<<
The motorist in Houston are in trouble. The motoring public will have to face and ever growing population that is sick and tired of paying for automobile transport and now their tax dollars will HAVE to be allocated in providing tram service. The days when Standard oil could dismantle trolley lines are over. The lightrail is the wave of the future and it's coming on like a steamroller!
It's about time.
Red labels=Bway-1-Line.
Blue Label's=Lenox-3-Line.
Yellow Label's=Pelham-6-Line. 1731 was originally assingned to Pelham.
Don't forget "it's," "sticker's," "their," a couple of spelling errors, and misuse of single-quotation marks. P.S. 248 needs to hire some English teachers ;).
It's not a school night :)
#3 West End Jeff
Maybe they just ran out of adhesive purple duct tape.
Like so:
If the idea is to induce people to leave their cars at home or at park-n-rides, and ride the rail system to their jobs, shopping, or entertainment, wouldn't it have made a lot more sense to put the money into a rail system that travels down the middle of the area freeways (e.g., as done in Chicago along the Kennedy and Dan Ryan Expressways), such as the I-610 Loop, Southwest Fwy., I-10, I-45, etc.??? This would help ease traffic a lot more than a trolley that reduces the availability of much-needed vehicle traffic lanes on a city street.
All the present system does is to connect Downtown with the Med Center and Astrodome areas. This seems barely to put even a Band-Aid on Houston's traffic problems. It would makes no difference whatsoever in the lives of the many people who live and work away from that route, especially outside the I-610 Loop.
And if they were adamant about putting the line on a busy, traffic-choked street as a means of relieving congestion, why didn't they start with Westheimer (especially outside the Loop), which is undoubtedly the most heavily jammed east-west route besides the I-10 Katy Freeway?
I believe Portland's MAX does exactly this, and as far as I know, the MAX is a huge success
I'm not sure anything about that park and ride area, That'd probably tbe the only place where, if it was my origin, I could see using it as a commuter system, those medical centers, downtowns, and possibly service workers for the stadiums and such are area's of high employment.
The just passed expansion plans seem ok. The thing is though, as these types of systems attract development, they make downtown a more in-demand area. More employement and housing. The core starter system will see more use.
As far as putting a band-aid on traffic is concerned. The system will never reduce congestion and traffic. Nothing ever will. Car's have a steady growth rate every year. If people move to LRT and car usage grows, it actually evens out, with LRT gaining usage, and net highway counts being the same. I understand this to be the situation in Portland. And without it, all those people will be on the road until what I call meltdown happens.
Besides, in sprawling cities, I doubt most people live within 7 miles of their work anyway, which was my first thoughts. But I would definately reposition myself to benefit from the system.
By the way, thank G-d for the preview screen. I must have screwed up the html for that post 5 times!!!
LOL!
Happy New Year!
My next poll will be:
How many o's is proper amount in MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!?
Click here for the answer.
Question: What do you think of this thread?
Response: It downright sucks.
Not even SubTalk related. Now go play in traffic on Broadway.
LEDs for lunar? I haven't seen that yet, other than on pedestrian signals where they're not packed closely. Do you have any pictures? (I'm not picky, I don't care what signal or system.)
Mark
Sean@Temple
Did you take fotos? I love looking at pics of drunks. :-)
Chuck Greene
Doris Roberts, who played the mayor's wife, is also still with us.
Dick O'Neill, who played Frank Corrall, died a year or two ago.
Also, Walter Matthau reportedly took the role of Garber only because he needed the money to cover gambling losses.
Pelham 123 got me hooked on Walter Matthau.... so by the time Grumpier Old Men came out,
too bad, he was still "Garber" in my ojos.
John Godey [novelist]- ???
Peter Stone [screenplay]- D. 2003
Walter Matthau [Lt Zachary Garber] D. 2000
Robert Shaw [Bernard Ryder a.k.a 'Mr Blue'] D. 1978
Martin Balsam [Harold Longman a.k.a 'Mr Green'] D. 1996
Hector Elizondo [Joey Welcome a.k.a 'Mr Gray'] alive
Earl Hindman [George Steever a.k.a 'Mr Brown'] D. 2004
James Broderick [Denny Doyle the Motorman] D. 1982 (yes...father of Matthew)
Dick O'Neill [Frank Correll] D. 1998
Lee Wallace [Al, the Mayor] alive
Tom Pedi [Caz Dolowicz ] D. 1996
Beatrice Winde [Mrs Jenkins (the tower person?)]- ???
Jerry Stiller- [Lt Rico patrone] very much alive
Nathan George [Patrolman James] apparently alive [has 2003 credit in the IMB]
Rudy Bond [Phildelphia Police comissioner] D. 1982
Doris Roberts [Mayors wife]- very much alive on 'Everybody Loves Raymond'
Tony Roberts [Warren Lasalle] alive...only his career is dead...
see what happens whne you are bored?
No information on Julius Harris, who played DCI Daniels. Even IMDB has no information on his birth date.
Dave
- CityTicket is valid only on Saturday and Sunday.
- CityTicket is valid only on the day of purchase (too bad; I was looking forward to "stocking up").
- CityTicket must be purchased at ticket windows or ticket machines.
- CityTicket cannot be purchased on the train.
- LIRR CityTicket is not valid for travel to/from Shea Stadium or Belmont Park (because those stations are open only for special events).
- LIRR CityTicket is not valid for travel to/from Far Rockaway (because those trains travel through Nassau County).
- Metro-North CityTicket is not valid on New Haven Line trains; for Fordham, use the Harlem Line.
- CityTicket is valid for direct travel only; you cannot change directions at junction points (e.g. a trip from Rosedale to Flushing requires a change of directions at Woodside and thus counts as two trips).
- Limited refund policy: within 30 days, with $2.00 (!) service fee per ticket!!
- No free transfer to/from subway or buses.
Even if the restructions themselves aren't that onerous, they're presented in a way that might well discourage use. (Hmmmm....)
Sorry buddy, you're the one who should take a look at a map
Far Rock is in the West Nassau fare zone (4), not the East Queens zone (3). FR already has the A train. SE Queens is served by LIRR zone 3 (Laurelton, Locust, Rosedale, St. Albans) and will benefit from CityTicket. What you cannot do is e.g. FR <--> Rosedale on CityTicket, but then, you cannot do so on regular fare either.
Boston's MBTA has in-city commuter rail fares from $1-2.50 (soon to $1.25-3.25)-about the same cost as the subway.
If they were serious about this, they should:
- make it valid 24/7 (or at least M-F 0930-1530 and 1830-end of service and all day Sat and Sun) and payable by PPR metrocard - put readers at the stations which will debit $2.50 and print out a ticket
- have a special unlimited including LIRR/MNCRR
- keep the no purchase onboard thing
- merge zones 3 and 4 and therefore allow Far Rockaway and Belmont Park
- stuff the Special Event balls and the New Haven balls
- allow a free transfer to Subway/Bus and a 50 cent transfer from Subway/Bus.
An unlimited CityTicket for some duration of time would be AWESOME.
And yes, they don't call me "big shot" for nothing. Thank you for stating the obvious.
No it isn't, and it won't be for about 8½ months.
:)
Bill "Newkirk"
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
From Penn station the trains use the Empire connector it climb a steep tunnel at west end of Penn station to cross over Hudson tunnels and LIRR yard lead.
after that the tracks follow the former west side freight line towards north tip of Manhatan.
at west end of Harlem river the track crosses the river at Spuyten Duyvill Bridge and joints the Hudson Line at CP12 just north of Spuyten duyvill sation.
And you don't need overseas posessions to be an empire. The American Empire is greater than any has-been empire over which the sun has already set.
Aha!
And you don't need overseas posessions to be an empire. The American Empire is greater than any has-been empire over which the sun has already set.
America's a Republic, not an Empire. I guess on the colonies score, Iraq kinda counts, but it's not part of NY state.
Any state that has a stupid part of land that makes no geographic sense can be considered an Empire State. These would include MI, MO, CT, FLA, OK, etc.
A Spitting Devil!
If you're the sort of person for whom LIRR seats are designed, you're neither right-handed or left-handed, being a quadruple amputee (not to mention a midget and an anorectic).
So it's o.k. for public facilities to be 100% right-handed??
However, as a lefty I have never had much trouble inserting cards into slots with my right hand - it isn't a task that requires great dexterity (or sinisterity!) to do, so one can do it with the "wrong" hand quite easily.
Since all us lefties are asked to do is swipe/touch our cards, I think we can manage that with the “other” hand!
I thought all the toll plazas had booths that opened both ways between each of the lanes, so they can be turned around and used for entry or exit as the flow requires. Are you sure this isn’t the case?!
If you are not the majority of people, why should special concessions be make for you that would piss off the rest of us?
But yea, maybe he can clandestinely switch the lefty desk with one of the regular desks.
Assuming that 10% of the population is left-handed (which is broadly correct), the chance that a class of 35 has at least one left-hander in it is about 97.5%.
Most people have more than one finger. When using a conventional mouse I use a different finger for each button.
Campaign for the real left!
Seriously, I have found it easier to learn to use a regular mouse in the regular way, with the result that I can use most peoples’ PCs (and, usually, fix them for them). My own main PC is an IBM Thinkpad, with the little red Trackpoint between the G, H and B keys. I have grown to love it, and wouldn’t buy a laptop with just a touchpad!
The problem with customizing your PC, is that it very definitely becomes Personal, and will infuriate anyone else trying to use or fix it!
LOL!
Now there's a sentiment not likely to go over well just about anywhere!!!!
My advice: Deal with it.
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
If you prefer, turn around and walk backwards.
When did you attend school? 1925?
I'm an ambilateral left hander (can use both hands for 99.9% of tasks except write!) According to the International Left Hand Society, if you write left, you are!!!
My wife is a monolateral left-hander, who does everything left handed except use the mouse. Our computer desk is so cramped, the mouse has to go on the right side. She has no trouble using a mouse right handed anywhere now.
When motoring a streetcar, the left hander has a slight advantage - the controller is operated by the left hand, brake by the right.
Right handers starting in training will instictivly grab the controller handle with their right hand the first time and have to be gently corrected.
We all live in a right-handed universe. (Science has observed that the universe seems to have a right hand bias.) Leftys learn to cope.
"Which (according to a source I read) forcing a monolateral left-hander to become a righty is a cause of habitual stuttering."
This is widely believed, and I think there is some objective evidence for it. King George VI of Britain (father of the present Queen Elizabeth II) was a stutterer - which caused him great difficulty as he had to make many public speeches - allegedly because he had been changed over from left-handed to right-handed in his youth.
I started school in 1948, when George VI was alive and his problems were well known. I am left-handed, and my parents deliberately sought a school that would give an assurance that they would *not* try to change me over. Incidentally I use a mouse with my left hand at work, where I am the sole user of my machine, but with my right hand at home, because I share the machine there with the rest of the family. And I have no problem with London Underground's right-handed turnstiles!
That's just because of the way we define things like electric current. If we defined the direction of electric current as the direction in which the electrons move instead of the direction in which mythical positive charges move, every physics student would be learning the "left hand rule".
Why should someone else "deal with it" just because YOU don't have a problem with it? Everyone in this world is different. Learn to recognize and respect that, buddy.
"Learn to recognize and respect that"
Thanks for saying that because that's what I need to do in life. Learn to recognize a person and respect their decisions.
That's not what I meant. I was referring to the fact that people are different, which you just said you now recognize.
To all of the left-handed people including you Sir Ronald of McDonald. I typed that quote as an example. I'll make sure that won't happen again. Why, because I'm here to voice my views, opinions and comments about the subways, not to start arugments with others. Before making a post, I'll make sure it doesn't offend anybody.
Being left-handed is being just a little bit disadvantaged: many objects are sided, and we live in a right-handed world, from sugars all the way up! So lefties learn to cope, the usual result being that most of us are ambidextrous (ambisinistrous?!) to a greater or lesser extent.
It’s not like we really need our own set of facilities! The only left-handed implement I own is a pair of Fiskars scissors, where the angled thumb and finger-holes allow me to cut very comfortably with my left hand.
It has equal handles (no "thumb hole) and the blades are ground so that it cuts equally well no matter which hand is used.
No more right hand only.
We have Fiskars, Fuller, and two non-branded ones, all equal handed.
"Left handers are the only ones in their right minds."
LMAO.
One of the blades is on top of the other. Is the blade on top controlled by your thumb? No.
The difference is that the thumb pulls up. If the blades are pulled together, great; if they're pulled apart, good luck.
The same scissors work in the right hand. These are conventional X-shaped scissors.
And I can cut just as well with either hand with the same set of scissors. I don't see why left-handed people always complain about scissors.
Left handed standard scissors are "backwards" for a right hander and won't cut for a righty.
Equal handled scissors have blades ground so that they cut properly regardless of which hand holds the tool.
Equal handled scissors don't have a "thumb hole".
So it will probably be a little easier and faster (less mechanical coordination) than swiping the current metrocard, but us lefties are still going to be the disadvantaged ones!
I think they have a such thing where you don't need to take anything out, like security doors, and the system detects "you" and opens a door or unlocks it or whatever. But that application couldn't work.
Just hope they don't go to fingerprinting. That would be awkward for you guys to use your right fingerprint. :)
There was also one time when I had to use a card and hand geometry. That was a low speed entry!
http://www.outdoorsystems.com/psub_price.html
http://www.viacomoutdoor.com
I have always loved and admired NYCT advertsing since I was a kid, from movie posters on station walls, to Budweiser ads in cars, to NYCT "Subtalk" public service announcemts.
My NYC Photos
2 question...on the first page, what is that sign for on the bottom of the 10-car marker at 59th St, and why the curatorial incorrectness of 8506 at the museum(on the 2nd page, i think)?
Thanks
Jeremy
As for the museum, the proper rollsigns were stolen.
and there are no other rollsigns to replace the ones in 8506? i noticed a few of the route signs on the front of the cars were misrepresented too...
Sad note...i overheard a conversation between 4 young adults..they were looking for the MOD cars...and they were wondering about the redbirds and why they weren't there...one of them thought they remembered something about them "being pushed into the water somewhere" - they thought that was cool...
boooooo!!!!!
NYC Photos
Click.
And this.
Click this too.
And don't forget to click this one.
Are you opening the files or are you downloading them and saving it onto your harddrive? If you rightclick/save target as, maybe there could be a better chance of getting the whole file.
The only options I have are cutting the files down or compressing them as zips and sending them via email to those interested.
Hope you enjoy the sounds.
Here's the rundown of the new fares:
Blue, Red, Orange, Green line: $1.25, up from $1.00
Bus: .90, up from .75
Silver Line: .90, up from .75
Commuter Rail cash/ticket one-way fares $1.25-6.00, up from $1.00-5.00
Full fares available at www.mbta.com
www.forgotten-ny.com
Fri by appointment, Sat-Sun 9am-4pm.
A great train ride through an old sugarcane plantation. About 25 minutes each way in historic cars pulled by a diesel switcher engine. Kids love it. Call ahead to make sure the train is running on the day you want to visit.
And there is a trolley in Arroyo that claims it is part of this train. Does anyone know if this trolley actually runs on former El Tren de Sur tracks?
"No se apoye contra the door"
Regards,
Jimmy
*********************************************************************
Hot Times on the High Iron, 3 December 03.
Today we are really going to do something different.
I receive lots of mail from many of you kind readers. Most of the notes are
friendly, while some offer corrections or revisions to subjects I have
written about. I also receive a few hostile ones here and there. Some of
the letters I receive often contain ideas for topics to write about. Others
send questions about various items. They may include questions about
specific railroad topics, general railroad topics, personal preferences and
the like. So I've decided to gather a bunch of them up and address them all
so that everybody can share the answers. That and it saves me from having
to write the same responses over and over again.
I will not use the names of those who have asked, I'll just post the
questions. Besides, some of the more threatening or hostile ones are being
investigated by my team of "consultants." Ya that's what I'll call them, my
consultants.
Q: "How many railroads have you worked for?"
A: How many are there? Actually, it would be a much more simple question to
ask which ones have I not worked for? The real answer though is ten.
Q: "Which one is my favorite?"
A: That depends, there have been good and bad things about them all, but
some have had far more positive points than others. If I was forced to
choose though, I would have to say MoPac as that is where this little
journey all started and where I attained my promotion to Engineer.
Q: "Which one is my least favorite?"
A: If I really had to choose I would have to say the South Shore.
Q: "What is your favorite type of train to run?"
A: Intermodal (trailer and/or container) trains are the best as you usually
can operate closer to track speed and often have plenty of power. Empty
unit grain and coal trains are some of the best to handle as there are so
many options available to you with regards to train handling. Loaded unit
trains like coal, grain, potash or taconite are good as they are uniform in
their loading and braking throughout each train. That is not to say they
all handle the same because they don't. They are just less of a challenge
than a mixed manifest train with loads and empties scattered throughout.
Q" "What is your favorite locomotive?"
A: For years it was the SD40 series. These things can really pull and have
been very dependable workhorses for years. The SD70 series has become a
favorite. Now for yard service, the GP15 series has always been a personal
favorite. These and their MP15 series cousins have always been good
performers.
Q: "What is your least favorite locomotive?"
A: Any four axle General Electric (except the U18B) and any Alco. Four axle
GE's are absolutely atrocious riding units, what I refer to kidney killers.
On bad rail they are even worse. As for Alcos, I have never operated one
that ran well or was comfortable. While railfans and some Engineers like
them, most Engineers I know never cared for Alco products and have the same
complaints about them I do. Also, a running joke refers to their Alco
acronym derived from its corporate name of American Locomotive Company as
really meaning Always Leaking Coolant and Oil.
I leave the U18B out of the GE four axle group as they all had different
trucks than the bigger units and rode much better, like a Geep.
Q: "What is the biggest train you ever handled?"
A: This is a two part answer as there are numerous variables involved. With
the advent of the articulated car and the modified twin cars (those that
were once two separate cars now mated and connected with a rigid drawbar
and counted as one car), this can make true car count a little inaccurate.
The articulated cars may be two, three, four or five units all counted as
one car. This car may be anywhere from 90 to 380 feet long.
So for as far as car count, the most cars was 195. The longest was 13,700
feet.
Q: "What was the heaviest train you ever handled?"
A: 20,128 tons. It was a 99 car loaded ore train that we added a bunch of
loaded grain and lumber to. When it was all totaled up, I had 166 loads, 10
empties and some 9000 plus feet. I had four, Burlington Northern & Santa Fe
Dash 9-44C's to pull it and the train actually ran and handled quite well.
Of course when you have plenty of power to pull it around, the chore of
handling it becomes pretty good.
Q: "Must you sound the whistle in the middle of the night?"
A: Yes, if I have to be awake, so do you. Actually, Federal law requires
that I sound the whistle. Should I fail to do so, or fail to do so in the
required manner and collide with a motor vehicle, there is massive exposure
to lawsuits and possible criminal charges. Believe me, my job and financial
situation are far more important to me than the sleep somebody who chose to
live close the right of way gets or doesn't get.
True it is loud and can be annoying for those living along the tracks, but
my attitude is that the railroad was there first. In most cases the people
who chose to live there knew there was a railroad when they moved into
their home or apartment. This is the same logic as with those people that
move near a busy airport or along an interstate highway. If you think
hearing the whistle is annoying for you, imagine having to listen to it at
112 crossings each and every day when it is right above your head. That is
some 448 sounds of the whistle.
Q: "Do you agree with no whistle laws enacted in many communities?"
A: Absolutely not. Unless there is some sort of barrier that totally
prevents motorist and pedestrians from bypassing the warning devices, I
need that whistle as my last line of defense to protect those that are not
only breaking the law but placing theirs and my lives at risk. I am also
trying to protect them from their own ignorance. Most of these no whistle
laws state something to the effect of "Whistle shall only be sounded in the
event of an emergency" which is very vague. Define emergency for me please?
Is it when I am just about to collide with a car? Would it be when a
motorist is driving around the gates as I approach, even if I am a quarter
of a mile away from the crossing itself and closing in? Or is it at the
point when a collision is inevitable? This leaves the decision totally at
my discretion and more often than not, the local authorities and the
neighbors are not going to see the situation in the same light as I.
And yes, I have been at odds with law enforcement people over this issue
when the situation has occurred.
Q: "Do you like the ditch lights on the locomotives?"
A: Yes, they are a great safety feature that the FRA was far too slow to
make mandatory. They have been around in Canada for many years prior to
their requirement in the US. I always wondered why they were not required
here sooner. They add a tremendous amount of light after dark, and they
make for much improved visibility to the public at all times.
Q: What about Mar (oscillating) lights?"
A: I always liked the Mars light as it really made an approaching train
stand out in the darkness. However, they didn't offer much, if any benefits
in daylight hours. With the addition of ditch lights to the locomotives,
most, although not all railroads that used Mars lights have since removed
them as they have become essentially redundant.
Q: "What is/was your favorite rule book to work under?"
A: Of all the rulebooks I have worked under throughout the years, I prefer
the NORAC book. It is very clear and concise and has traditionally been
more conservative.
Q; "What type of signals do you prefer?"
A: Again, a multifaceted question. I always preferred the speed signals
used most often in the Eastern US than the route signals used most other
places. With speed signals the aspect displayed tells you exactly how fast
you need to be operating. Route signal aspects tell you the route you are
using. The special instructions in the timetable tell you how fast to
proceed.
As for different types of signals, I always liked the old Pennsylvania
Railroad position light (PL) signals and the Baltimore & Ohio color
position light (CPL) signals. The PL type signals really stand out much
better in inclement weather as the amber colored lights tend to cut through
the fog, rain and snow better. And even if one of the bulbs should happen
to be burned out, you can always positively ascertain what the aspect
displayed is.
The CPL signals, while using different colors to correspond with their
aspects, still can easily be determined even if one of the bulbs is burned
out. Their only drawback is they don't cut through the inclement weather as
well.
Q: What method do prefer better, track warrants or train orders?
A: Track warrants as they are less complicated and quite concise. They are
also far easier to copy on a moving locomotive than train orders and
generally take less time to copy and repeat.
Q: "What do you prefer, the standard control stand or the desktop model?"
A: I prefer the standard control stand. It is a far more practical and
versatile design. The desktop model is not comfortable to anybody over 5
feet tall. The design has a panel that slopes down at an angle from the
front of the desktop to the back of it right where you put your legs.
Should you want to sit close to the controls you have to lower the seat
significantly so as not to smack your knees against the panel. Then you are
sitting like a little kid down very low and you lose forward visibility.
They also have the controls set up backwards from the standard control
stand. It seems that nobody who is required to use them on a regular basis
was ever consulted with in regards to their design.
Q: "What do you prefer working, freight or passenger?"
A: Freight.
Q: "What do you prefer, the road or the yard?"
A: The road.
Q: "Which does the beautiful bride prefer you work?"
A: None, she would prefer I struck it rich somehow and didn't have to go to
work at all. Of course, I agree with her on the latter portion of this
answer. I believe I could become accustomed to the independently wealthy
lifestyle. Now she prefers I work the yard.
Q: "If you had the chance to do it all over again, would you have gone with
railroading?"
A: Absolutely. Again though, if it was either this or that wealthy thing, I
would choose the cash instead.
Q: "If you had to leave the Locomotive Engineer craft and do something else
on the railroad what would be?"
A: Signal Maintainer.
Q: "What is the likelihood of your ever becoming a railroad official again?"
A: Extremely unlikely. That is not to say it won't occur, but I have no
plans or intentions to pursue this avenue again. Now while I'll say never,
I will say not likely ever.
Q: "Do you see a day when the Locomotive Engineer will be alone in the cab
on most through-freight trains?"
Yes I do, and I believe it will occur before I call it a career.
Q: What the SD such as in SD40 stand for?
A: Special Duty. These are six axle locomotives.
Q: What does GP such as in GP15 stand for?
A: General purpose. These are four axle locomotives. The term "Geep" is
used instead of saying G-P.
Q: What has been the worst experience of your career?
A: My collision in Antioch, IL back in 1989 with the automobile that left
three teenaged girls dead.
Q: What has been the best experience of your career?
A: My promotion to Locomotive Engineer in 1981.
Q: Do you think remote control will ever fully replace the Locomotive
Engineer?
A: I hope not, although I believe the industry will try no matter how many
problems they have, how much money it costs or how much business they wind
up losing over its use. With all of the problems being encountered, the
wrecks that have occurred and the damage done with remote control operation
and with all of the things that have the potential to go wrong (and often
do), I don't see unmanned trains as a safe alternative for the human
factor.
Q: What does the 645 or 710 mean when describing the diesel engine (prime
mover) in a locomotive?
A: These numbers represent the cubic inch displacement of one cylinder of
the engine. As a comparison, if you have an automobile with a 350 engine,
this equals the total cubic inch displacement of all of the cylinders, not
just one like a locomotive. Now most locomotives are either 8, 12, 16 or 20
cylinders. So you would take that 645 or 710 number and multiply it by the
total number of cylinders on that particular model of locomotive to equate
the total cubic inch displacement of the diesel engine.
Ya it's really big.
Q: What is your favorite brand of locomotive, EMD (Electro Motive Division
of General Motors) or GE?
A: EMD. I tell people I run really big Chevrolets for a living. While GE
has made significant improvement in their locomotives over the years, I
still like the EMD's better. And it still upsets some folks when I tell
them that GE should have stuck to making toaster ovens and washing
machines.
Q: Where does "And so it goes" come from?
A: My favorite writer and fellow Hoosier, Kurt Vonnegut, Jr. Way back in
high school I was introduced to Mr. Vonnegut's work when I had to read the
required "Slaughterhouse Five." In this outstanding novel the line "And so
it goes" was used quite liberally. I liked the sound and feel of it and
quickly adopted it as a quote for various situations in my personal life.
Then in the early 1980's, the National Broadcasting Company began airing a
news show late at night called "NBC News Overnight" which at first was
hosted by Linda Ellerbee and Lloyd Dobbins. Later Bill Schecter replaced
Mr. Dobbins. I was a huge fan of this program and watched it religiously.
At the end of each broadcast, one of the hosts would read an editorial and
close it with this same "And so it goes." Linda Ellerbee wrote her
autobiography and also titled it "And So It Goes." Oh yes, I've read it
too. I have tremendous respect for Ms. Ellerbee, her work and her values.
Back when Overnight was still on the air, a dolly I was dating at the time
was watching it with me and when she heard the infamous line used to end
that evening's editorial and also close the show, she jumped up and said
"Hey, they stole your line!" Had to explain that like me, the Overnight
hosts actually pirated it from Slaughterhouse Five.
With that we draw this session to a close. Keep those cards and letters
coming in folks.
And so it goes.
Tuch
Hot Times on the High Iron, ©2003 by JD Santucci
A post script, I have a birthday happening this week, so I may very well
not get around to writing a column up for next week. Depends on how much
time I have left after all of the celebrating, or maybe on how hung over I
am on Monday morning.
They also have the controls set up backwards from the standard control
stand. It seems that nobody who is required to use them on a regular basis
was ever consulted with in regards to their design.
Dutchrailnut is a passenger engineer who is comfortable with the AAR control stand. IMHO, the AAR stand is superior for freight operations where there is more backing up and switching of trains by the road power. I couldn't imagine switching with a desktop. but I guess it all goes to the equipment you are used to and most freight engineers are used to upright stands. My vote would be for the AAR stand.
My post should have read:
Dutchrailnut is a passenger engineer who is comfortable with the Desktop control layout.
It's all a question of what you're trained on, and what you're used to. In an MU yard, there is just as many backup moves as a freight railroad. The problem is that over the years, they have found that it is safer not to back up instead just change ends. And over the years MU operators seem to have also lost the skill of backing up with radio assistance.
British Rail enginemen did switching with the equivalent of a desktop control stand (in fact, the EMD variety as installed in class 66 locos). This is not to say they are more skilled. They were trained different, and they can do switching safely with a desktop control stand.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
However the MTA redeems them at $2.
Anybody who tries this scam deserves some sort of award for stupidity.
Peace,
ANDEE
That would make sense, since they were bought at $1.50 each.
Bill "Newkirk"
The TA wouldn't redeem any Roosevelt Island tokens anyway.
BTW - Is there some kind of law of something that a Transit Authority must refund the cost of a no longer used token, since the passenger already bought the token (paying the fare) and was never used ? This would prevent the Authority from telling people to toss the tokens.
Bill "Newkirk"
Yes they would. They're the same tokens.
You could do the reverse by riding the Tram for $2 using a token you paid $1.50 for. I wonder if any R.I. tokens wound up in NYCT turnstiles ? They must be the same diameter and thickness.
Bill "Newkirk"
Yes, they are the same diameter and thickness.
Picture of last New York City Transit token:
Picture of last (current) Roosevelt Island Tram token:
Brain fart.
Token 1
Token 2
Token 3
Token 4
Token 5
Peace,
ANDEE
Sorry - that's NOT fraud - I call it arbitrage!!
Too bad it won't work because the TA is only redeeming them at $1.50 but I am thinking of hoarding a few for resale on eBay 10 years from now.....
avid
What I wanted to know is whether this is part of a general rehabilitation of R-62(A)'s or if car 1590 had been damaged?
Thanks, and Happy New Year!
Bob Sklar
Robert
#3 West End Jeff
til next time
David
#3 West End Jeff
By the time SubTalkers could raise enough money to buy all those new seats (for almost 1,150 cars), the cars will have been replaced and their replacements probably will have been replaced.
It's just not worth doing.
David
#3 West End Jeff
I'm guessing "D of B" was referring to the idea of using the seats from the cars the R-62/62A were replacing. Problem with THAT is, almost all of those cars were built with soft seats -- the backs of the replacement hard seats (which were installed due to high vandalism, which wasn't the case with the R-62/62A) didn't meet the "cushions." That, and the seats on the old cars weren't cantilevered -- they rested on floor heat enclosures, and I don't know whether they could have been adapted easily. Plus, the seats and backs would have had to be repainted -- nearly all were dark gray, and the rest were coral. Don't know if anybody in Car Equipment even thought of the idea at the time, but it sounds like a lot of work to me.
David
(I just found the typo.)
R62 1391 at Union Square, December 28, 2001
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=630367
David
I've never been on it, though I did see the Silver Line buses in action.
It means that you are on the wrong forum. I recommend the Bustalk forum.
However, in summary, BRT is the bus manufacturers’ retaliation to LRT. A repeat of the National City Lines fiasco of the 1930s/40s and later decades, but not on such a large scale. If you do an internet search and look up Bus Rapid Transit, you will come across buses that resemble LRVs – which is the same tactic NCL, GM, White and Mack used when selling their replacement bus setup versus the streetcars (note that the earlier buses resembled PCC streetcars).
So last night, after he went to bed, I took the set out and, after much thought and false starts, managed to build a layout using all the switches, tracks and overpasses. To make it more interesting, I ran both engines simultaneously in different directions. Each had one non-powered trailer attached to it.
After a two-hour session, ending at midnight, I observed the following firsthand and note same for the future.
1) It takes more power for a train to round a curve than to go straight, because train wheels always want to go straight. It also wears the wheel flanges more quickly. I suppose this was the thinking behind the IND system construction [on a MUCH larger scale, of course ;)] where there are far more straight runs than on the IRT.
2) As a corollary to the above, the sharper the curve, the more wear on the engine and flanges and the higher likelihood of a derailment.
3) Tracks leading to ascending tracks and away from descending tracks need to be as straight as possible for as far as possible before the tracks start to rise/lower. This is because a train needs to gather speed to go up the incline and speed can't be gathered easily while rounding a curve. (See the F and G trains heading up to Smith-9th St.)Similarly, gravity and the "pushing" weight of trailing cars going downhill work to involuntarily increase a train's speed while descending. Thus, tracks leading away from descending tracks must be as straight as possible, as the placement of a curve immediately following a descending portion of track increases the possibility of derailment. In order to avoid a derailment, additional engine and brake wear are required. On the other hand, straight trackage following a decline in trackage enables a train to move more smoothly and with a lower possibility of derailment.
Of course, these principles are obvious to all of us but its interesting to see them in action.
Anyway, part of this post is a goal I am trying to achieve, and it might be this year:
A TRIP TO L.A. TO RIDE LAMTA WITH ALL THE WEST COAST SUBTALKERS, INCLUDING SALLAM, FRED AND WHOEVER ELSE WE CAN HOOK UP WITH.
Not a bad idea. Stay tuned!
It could have been nasty. Is this tunnel always like this, New Year's Eve?
Conincidently, I met up with Mark and HopeTunnel last night in the restaurant while I was with my mother.
I wish you luck in Nathans, might be a bit too cold down at Stillwell to eat there.
Regards,
Jimmy
Jimmy ;D
Then go there. But the rest of us want to eat at a kosher place, so you'll probably be all alone.
K car? He's the BMTman, not the PATHman!
As in Kreisler "K" car?
Peace,
ANDEE
UMM, that's common knowledge.
Peace,
ANDEE
Regards,
Jimmy
Peace,
ANDEE
I'll stay with Kool-D's plan. Going to the beach in the dead of winter isn't exactly a well thought-out plan.
If you want ambience in the place, forget it I am most concerned about the food than the looks of the restaurant. As long as the place is clean that's all I care about.
As D-Day (whoops I meant D Train) approaches closer, I will fill everyone in on the details. There is a bus that can take us direct from Stillwell to Famous Pita. I assume all of us will ride the D train all the way to Stillwell, then we can pick up the B68/Coney Island Ave bus there.
For Stillwell opening in May, then it's obvious that Nathans will be THE place to eat there before or after the opening gala.
Then say so.
Peace,
ANDEE
nyuck nyuck nyuck - yes, I enjoyed eating my raw kosher Marshmallow Fluff with a spoon, and then I stuck the spoon on my nose. This was all during a House Meeting, mind you.
Regards,
Jimmy
In any event, if the weather will be nice on Sunday afternoon, perhaps I'll skip the nocturnal first train in exchange for a comprehensive walk and ride back and forth during the day. Will the north side bikeway be open? If so, I might walk over, walk back, ride over, ride back, etc.
subway.com.ru
Did Flushing Ave/BMT and Prospect Park/BMT Brighton finally made it to the accessible stations page?
As of December (1-implied), 2003, that was absolutely correct.
(D) Coney Island/Stillwell Av (accessibility closed
due to elevator rehab until May 2004)
Jumping the gun?
Thanks,
Mark
or call:
212-638-7622
I just ordered it.
Mark
Not available at: GCT Info Booth or TMS
Yes available at: 96 St (Broadway) at the northbound side booth.
Is Sutphin/Archer still called Sutphin/Archer?
I assume the Q weekend reroute via Lower Manhattan is no longer included.
I just thought this was funny.
I'll try to get it so that it's suitable for the Web (i.e. file size) and let you know where and when to get it.
If anyone is willing to host the file, let me know.
Or post to that place that we post to :-)
na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na
Electroliners, Streamliners, Subways too, and then there's the Chattanooga Choo-Choo
Amtrak trains are never on time, Redbirds on the Flushing Line!
What is that, that steaming thing?
I guess it's time for the railroad rap.
Come on ya'll let's hear the railfans sing!
Listen to the railroad rap!
4-4-0s and RDCS, Canadian National and TGVs.
Pennsy and its GG1s and don't forget Thomas he's number one!
What is that, that steaming thing?
I guess it's time for the railroad rap.
Come on ya'll let's hear the railfans sing!
Listen to the railroad rap!
High speed freight on the Nickel Plate, last name Shelley, first name Kate.
20th Century Limited speeding down the track with steam coming out of its smoke stack!
What is that, that steaming thing?
I guess it's time for the railroad rap.
Come on ya'll let's hear the railfans sing!
Listen to the railroad rap!
Listen to the railroad rap!
Ok, its done. I know that was cheesy, but it was fun to make. I hope you liked it.
Chuck
I was diggin' on The Man
The Man was diggin' on me
And if it's the IND, the BMT, or the IRT
It's all the same to me ...
- The Last Poets
I also find something else: The amount of FLAMAGE is inversely proportional to the amount of heated, but civilized arguments.
The cure for flamage is not to complain about, but it's to have arguments about interesting topics. If you don't like flamage, be prepared to argue against someone else's point, even if you really agree.
You've noticed that SubTalk has been kinda lean on interesting topics. Not too many people are interested in history, so the same topics get repeated over and over, "What is your favorite...?," "What is on the latest edition of The Map?" "What will the service on Manhattan Bridge be Like?" "What Services Will Run on the Second Avenue Subway?" "What Will Replace the R160s in 50 Years?" "Should SUV Drivers Be Killed, or Merely Tortured?" "Happy {insert-holiday] to all Subtalkers," "[insert-SubTalker-Handle] is a [cretin/communist/fascist/gay/stupid/on my killfile]" "TRAINS ON THE 5 LINE ARE SWITCHING FROM THE LOCAL TO THE EXPRESS TRACK RIGHT NOW!!!!!!!!!!!".
And my personal favorite: 76TH STREET! (Sloooowly I turned, step by step, inch by inch.....}
Turpentine or benzene ? Either ! (A bottle of ether is uncorked) ...
We are now ready to paint the body !
And I thought I was actually going to see an equation, giving the number of reply posts an inflammatory post will generate, as a function of such "independent variables" as mentions of race, four-letter words, unenforcible imperatives, unsupportable statements, derogatory epithets, similar to Carl Sagan's equation for estimating the number of (pun intended)intelligent races in the universe, given certain observable quantities as inputs. Silly me !
I suppose SubTalk, like nature, abhors a vacuum (to borrow from Aristotle) and, consequently, crap rushes in where quality and substance fear to tread, or post (to borrow from Alexander Pope).
How can I qualify as The Crown Prince of Arcana ?
Also, I had Abbott and Costello in mind, but I love the Stooges' routines as well. :)
Do you remember the Maharani of Franistan from "I Love Lucy" ?
How about Laurel and Hardy, Mack Sennett, Buster Keaton, the Keystone Kops ?
No, but I remember Princess Takamatsiya on "Your Show of Shows."
How about Laurel and Hardy, Mack Sennett, Buster Keaton, the Keystone Kops ?
Yes.
By the way Paul, since you mentioned you like Abbott and Costello, maybe you should try my Bud & Lou quiz!Click here for it.
Am I the only person who liked Shemp?
No, my daughter is working on becoming the Sultaness of Mathematical Ephemera and Non-Romance Languages Written with Cyrillic Characters. So maybe you should try the bizarre trivia route. :)
Probably because the newspapers don't belittle their readers. Who posts information with bellitlement?
Poppycock, I say! Flamage is the natural result of lack of patience toward moronic posters with innane points of view (or something like that).
Reads like you're working with physicist Brian Greene about the connection between string theory, chaos theory, fractal geometry, and SubTalk flamage and off-topic posts !
Either that or just drinking heavily!
Why am I not surprised? Of all people to complain about the actions of the flamees instead of the flamers.
I don't know, porkster. Maybe you should try to enlighten us.
Shouldn't you instead say poopycock?
Tickets go on sale at 12:01 a.m. on Saturday through 11:59 p.m. on Sunday and must be used on the day of purchase. A grace period allows you to travel until 4 a.m. Sunday or Monday morning for tickets purchased on Saturdays or Sundays respectively. Check the appropriate schedules to determine if service to your destination is available.
Except for New Years Day, the grace period to use City Ticket on Metro-North is 12:15 AM southbound and 1:30 AM northbound.
It's about time MNRR restored overnight service -- or at least till 2:30. Lots of late nighters must be inconvenienced by that last-train-at 1:30 (or 1:20 for the Hudson line) garbage. It was only cut back as a way of closing GCT at night so they could evict the homeless. There must be a better way to deal with that. Anyway, closing at 2:30 wouild still allow them to close the terminal.
Let us know what the response is!
David
So who's left? People who aren't regular subway riders who want a faster trip in the City, some railfans, and City people from, for example, Little Neck or Rosedale who already take the LIRR to shop or go touring but will now get a price break.
AirTrain users could also benefit, if they're even aware of it.
I don't have much use for eastern Queens, though.
Ride on 27, nuff said..... although this bus is mostly used, because it it quicker than the Bx15 and Bx41... and it's the only real "rapid transit" near Fordham on weekends(not counting MNR)
Yet it IS VALID on Harlem MNR at the FORDHAM Station.
Guess it's all a game of color stripes if you get on at FORDHAM.
A good guess is that they couldn't (or didn't bother) negotiating details with the State of Connecticut on how to handle this, so the course of least resistance was for New Haven Line not to participate.
- Fordham technically serves the Harlem line
- Fordham is only used as a pick-up point for Connecticut-boung New Haven trains and a drop-off point for GCT-bound New Haven trains.
- You are not supposed to get off at Fordham if you're on a Connecticut-bound train, nor are you supposed to board a New Haven GCT-bound train at Fordham. If you do, and the C/R comes around for tickets, you will be charged for a ticket to/from Mount Vernon East, the first real stop on the New Haven line, which is $1.25 more expensive (peak) than a Harlem line ticket between GCT and Fordham.
So that's why City Ticket does NOT apply on New Haven line.
IIRC, that rule originated with the Connecticut Department of Transportation. My guess is that it had something to do with the MTA-ConnDOT cost-sharing formula for the New Haven Line.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
When the IRT subway opened in 1904 the NY Times briefly considered using it to deliver newpapers (the former Times building is just above the 42st local stop) but it was not convenient or efficient when trucks could pull right up to the loading docks then bring the papers right to the newstand door.
Even Chicago Tunnel Company, which had no passenger service to interfere with, never really had much success as a carrier of general freight and express. Especially in its later years, its trade consisted primarily of ash removal, a low-value carriage in which the truckers were not greatly interested. Its demise in the late Fifties resulted largely from the gradual elimination of coal furnaces in Loop office buildings.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
This is not to say that there's no place in NYC for more freight service. I'd love to see a freight line driven across SI and South Brooklyn to the JFK area, for a new intermodal freight center. A large freight yard there could supply Brooklyn and Queens with all the goods they'll need, removing any need for freight to flow through manhattan or the Bronx. It would also ease the flow of freight into and off of the rest of Long Lisland, and with JFK right there, provide an easy tranfer to air freight.
But then, I haven't really studied this idea very much yet. Seems like a good one on paper, but I have few facts to back it up.
The thing is, it's doubtful that a company would go through the process of shipping something by air, then transferring it to train, than transfering it to truck, so rail freight at the airport may not be such a great idea.
The current freight railroads use either the Hell Gate Bridge or the NYRR carfloat to access NYC and Long Island from the mainland. The SIR North Shore branch would be reopened along with the Arthur Kill lift bridge, allowing freight from NJ into NY. The line would have one track over the Verrazano Narrows Bridge (only one vehicle lane lost) to link to Brooklyn, eliminating car floats. In Brooklyn, the new line would connect with NYA/LIRR, and CSX/NYA/CP/PW at Fresh Pond, Queens.
Ah, pipedreaming. So much fun!
Considering the likelihood of this ever happening, I'll say Futurama-esque people-tubes.
It would never be able to handle the grades on the bridge approaches.
BMT Boxcar in service just this afternoon. :)
BTW, I hope you had a Happy New Year, TD.
New years was great! Hope likewise for you.
At one time, more non-passenger traffic was carried on the subway.
Newspapers were delivered via the system, and both privates,
IIRC, had brief experiments with "express" parcel service.
About the only thing that would make sense is mail and parcels from the airport(s). This would require Airtrrain sidings in the air freight area, Airtrain access to the subway, and sidings in Midtown and Lower Manhattan to take the stuff out. A lot of investment for the level or return.
Also, deep-bore tunnelling wouldn't allow for as much flexibility with express and local tracks and future expansions. The slightest capital improvement (i.e., installing a switch between two parallel tracks) would be a massive undertaking. London's Tube is nice, but it's severely hampered by its inflexibility and lack of expansion capacity.
Lastly, having cut-and-cover stations means quicker access to/from the street level. Imagine having to take the (1) train from Columbus Circle to 86th: You'd spend several minutes going down a huge escalator, a couple minutes actually riding the train itself, and then several more minutes going up another huge escalator. Your travel time would probably be almost tripled for short trips like that. Deep-bore is much more suited for systems like the DC Metro that have longer distances and faster speeds between stations.
(I'll concede that Chicago's subways are mostly deep-bore and manage to serve their purposes well. However: 1) There's only two subway lines, and 2) They're much shallower than London or DC -- easier to do when the whole city is pancake-flat -- and Chicago has much different geology than New York. Chicago is on mostly hard-pan clay, while Manhattan is mostly solid granite.)
Peace,
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
Also, all of those pictures of the maze of utilities is concentrated to the small area of lower Manhattan. When the original IRT, BRT/BMT and even much of the IND were built, they were in relatively undeveloped areas.
I got a news flash for you. Washington DC is not "just mud and sand" Everything between N Street NW to Pooks Hill Road on the A Route Red Line is in bed rock with the exception of the roughly 900’ 274m section under the Rock Creek valley. Everything from about 300’ 91m north of the tunnel portal north of Silver Spring B08 to a point south the double crossover on the south end Glenmont B11 on the B Route Red line is in bed rock. The Potomac River tunnels are in bed rock and the tunnels south of Rosslyn C05 on the C Route Blue Line as well as the tunnels to the west to Court House K01 on the K Route Orange Line.
There is a significant amount of cut and cover. All of the K Route Orange Line west of Court House is cut and cover. All of tunnels on both Blue and Yellow lines in South Arlington and in the City Of Alexandria are cut and cover with the exception of the tunnels south of Pentagon C07 under the Henry G. Shirley Memorial Highway VA I-395. All of the tunnels on the Blue Orange lines C Route under I from 13th Street NW to the west end of Foggy Bottom C04 are cut and cover. All of the tunnels on the A and B routes Red line from 15th Street NW to New Jersey Avenue NW are cut and cover along with the all of tunnels north of Grosvenor A11. The tunnels under the National Mall on the Blue Orange lines D Route are cut and cover. The pocket tracks north of Farragut North A02 and Mount Vernon Square E01 are cut and cover. All of the tunnels on the Blue line G Route extension now under construction are cut and cover, alone with a number of short segments scattered around the system.
There are significant sections that are shield bored tunnels in soft soil, but they defiantly are not the majority of the tunnels in the system.
John
If New York had a lot of deep stations with long escalators, would NYCT's record with respect to escalator maintenance and repair be as disgraceful as it is now, or would necessity force competency? I haven't a clue.
Maybe, maybe not. BART in the San Francisco bay area has escalators (and elevators for handicapped only) at every station, and they had a terrible record of escalator maintenance (at least in the mid-90s, I don't know what the situation is nowadays).
This is a very valid point. In London, it often isn't worth doing a short journey by tube even if you have an unlimited ticket (provided the weather is good), because it is as quick to walk as to take a escalator down, wait for a train, ride the train for say five minutes, and then ride the escalator up again.
Another point: when was the escalator invented? The original London tube stations from the turn of the twentieth century had lifts (elevators in American). Lifts have a lesser carrying capacity than escalators, which is why lifts survive only at lesser-used stations in London. Maybe escalators didn't exist when the original IRT was built??
1901. Escalator was a brand of Otis Elevator Company. The word was invented by taking the Latin scala for stairs and combining it with elevator.
The word escalate came from escalator, not the other way around.
I invented the word eclinator, to describe a moving ramp.
I like "eclinator". When they were installed at Bank station in London, quite a few years ago now, to serve the Waterloo & City Line platforms, the name given to them was "Travolator", which may have been a trade name and certainly sound American to me. Eclinator seems a much more elegant term.
Consider also that either you have to build and engineer multiple tubes, or else bore huge tubes for 2, 3 or (yikes) 4 tracks. Double the diameter of a tunnel, and you quadruple the volume of the tunnel.
Finally, a deeper tubes adds costs - elevators/escalators to access, plus the extra time spent by passengers going up and down (and for elevators, waiting for them too).
closer to the surface is cheaper both to build and use, plus other problems like when there is a fire. I will admit that the deeper tubes make better bomb shelters however.
Less of a problem if you stack the tracks. The area above, below, and to the sides can be used for service equipment and emergency egress. A deep tunnel is probably better for long express runs than for anything else.
Maybe they should bore a bigger tunnel for the SAS just for the heck of it, unless it would make it more difficult to get over and under things. How much more volume for stacked tracks vs. two tracks, given that one dimension (side to side) is the same?
Three or four track bored tunnels are not practical. Even two-track tunnels really drive up the costs. Even though the miscellaneous extra space can be used for systems (more true with catenary) there are other cost factors. It is much harder to ventilate a two-track tunnel, especially for fire/smoke control. You want to minize the face of a tunnel bore. There is a cost benefit to running two single-track bores in NYC. You pay for support crews regardless of the TBM operation so while one TBM is down for maintenance, the crew is at least useful while the second machine is running.
For soft-ground TBMs large diameters require huge amounts of torque and power. The precast concrete liner segments become very heavy and hard to manage and place easily. The advantage is that the face is so large that many maintenance operations, such as cutter wheel and drag bit replacement can be done through individual air-locks as opposed to men entering compressed air in the cutter head chamber.
--Mark
London is well suited to tube tunnelling because it is built on clay. Nevertheless, it isn't always the cheaper option. While cut-and-cover disrupts surface traffic more during construction, even tube construction causes some surface disruption. Shafts for ventilation, the disposal of spoil, and delivery of materials have to come to the surface somewhere, and of course station sites have to be excavated. I remember well the years and years with the steel "umbrella" over Oxford Circus during the construction of the Victoria Line in the 1960s.
I agree that nothing shows up over dark red. Red is the color our eyes have the biggest trouble seeing, and it is also the most upsetting because it looks like blood.
There are none.
I disagee with that, The standard color as delivered for most of the fleet from at least R16 thru R30 (except R29) was a very dark green. The grayish color was not from the green disappearing, but from the build up of dirt and steel dust from lack of washing. The same thing happened to the original "Redbirds," the R29s. In a matter of months, they began to turn the same color as the rest of the fleet.
--Mark
Current equipment is silver because it's stainless steel, not because they decided silver was a good color. For a while they tried mimicing the stainless-steel-and-blue scheme on LAHT equipment, but it looked sort of flat.
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
Not only that, but the very first Redbirds were actually painted with a special graffiti resistant formula "loaned" from Fern Rock Shops.
The principles involved are right, too. David Gunn worked with a gentleman named Steve Stitsworth of SEPTA to produce the original materials, and it was they who brought the tried and tested strategy to NYCTA. Steve has unfortunately passed away since then but is fondly remembered by many.
Note that the Redbirds had every detail identical to the old "classic" Broad Street cars: maroon body, silver roof and black trim.
The maroon was actually started in 1981 as part of what SEPTA then called its "QC" (Quality Control) program. What it was was really heavy-duty composition floor paint, with a formula modified to adhere to previous coats of paint and resist foreign elements like brake dust build up, grime and graffiti. Cars in the "Graffiti-free" fleet were repainted and kept together.
One other way the graffiti was eradicated quickly was cutting train lengths from 5 cars to 4 sometime in 1981-82. This allowed a number of less reliable old cars to be retired and enabled the B-IVs to replace more old trains quicker than otherwise. This strategy, too, proved useful during later applications in New York.
Smart fella, this Gunn guy!
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
1) Corrision
2) Grafiti
It's not just the color that resists - it's the actual chemical properties of the paint.
Regards,
Jimmy
Remember, this is weekends:
A: 207 St (maybe 168?)-CPW Local-8th Ave Local-Fulton St Local-Lefferts
B: 168 St (maybe 207?)-CPW Local-6th Ave-West End-Coney Island
C: 205 St-CPW Express-8th Ave Exp-Fulton St Exp-Rockaways (split or have Rockaway Park served by shuttle)
D: No service
Give Concourse and Rockaways their expresses, and give Washington Heights and Lefferts their locals. Advertise the whole "C saves only 3 minutes thing" to Washington Heights. All trains every 8 minutes?
On Rush hours:
A Local
B Local
C Express
D Express
If the "R68s only" policy is that important at Concourse, then the C will just have to get them.
Constructive comments welcome. That is, nothing about which letter is which, or about the song "Take the A train."
Personally, I could also imagine, because I believe there must be a switch track somewhere, that A trains could run express, for example from 125 to 96, then switch across, and D would run express from 86 to 59. Of course, this requires a whole lot switching, so in the final analysis, I'm sticking with A,D express, C local just like the weekend service they've had for about 70 years.
It's not like having just any two locals because I specifically asked for the Concourse train to run express and the two Washington Heights trains to run local, because the Concourse riders have a longer ride and Washington Heights at least has the 1 at 168th to fall back on, even though they'd only lose three minutes by having both of their lines running local.
Since there is a #1 option, there's no need for an extra local. Things should be kept the way it is.
N Bwy
N Broadway Line
Regards,
Mark Valera
Chuck Greene
--Mark
The Penn-Bay State (#182)
Penn Station 10.00
New Haven 11.40
Providence 2.02
Boston South 3.00
2003 schedule:
Northeast Direct (#172)
Penn Station 10.30
New Haven 12.08
Providence 1.56
Boston South 2.45
Wait, actually, this saves almost an hour compared to the previous schedule. But why is it still soooo slow? Notice how almost no time is saved between Penn Station and New Haven? In fact, some trains have a padding at New Haven because MNCW's timekeeping is so terrible...
AEM7
Unless a new rail technology were adopted -- which it can't without dedicated regional rail, and you're the one who thinks commuter, freight and regional should share rails -- then speed is completely dependent on the skill of T/O's and schedulers. Those are old, hand-craft, hand-me-down skills, and they're dying off.
*Pulls out my National Association of Clecrical & Technical Workers Card* Now look carefully on the dotted line where it says "Trade Craft". It reads "SCHEDULER", doesn't it? Oh by the way I am 24 and a graduate of the class of 2000 (College, not high school). So much for old skill dying off huh?
Oh wait, you ask Jersey Mike, train scheduling is such a non-skill that I got bored with it within a year and I'm still kicking around looking for a more interesting job. Just to let you know how these skills are being passed on -- in my British Rail days, we ran operational planning seminars in each of the Regions (at the time they were funded by Railtrack); just two years ago Paul Reistrup headed a TRB Railroad Capacity Workshop in Washington D.C. which was attended by literally hundreds of planning professionals. Old skills dying off, eh? Maybe when you've learned the craft you can tell me that it's dying off. Look around and see how many train regulators there are out there still, and operations specialists. Perhaps fewer in number than asphalt engineers, but they're out there -- they just need to be paid and have their job classifications restored.
So what's your point? Hand dispatching, trains were always fast, and the infrastructure is maintained in the field. How could there be any progress?
I think I was alludiung to the fact that the "progess" on the New Haven Line has been retrograde. MNRR has congestion issues today that it did not have before. While the Shore Line getting faster and faster, it cannot mask the fact that MNRR is getting slower and slower and less predictable by the day. Run time from Boston to New York is still in the 4 hr 30 mins range with 1 hr 38 mins burned on MNRR.
Oh, and before you say that's why you need a new by-pass, may I remind you that 45 minutes -- yes a MERE 45 MINUTES is burned between Providence and Boston. That's MBTA territory where the Amtraks have to duck between commuter trains on 3-track and sections of 2-track infrastructure. MNRR has 4-tracks (with one short section of 3-track) between New Haven and New Rochelle. THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR IT TAKING THAT LONG!
By the way -- the reason the MBTA territory could be traversed quickly is no accident. They did it up with CTC and ATC when they did the whole Acela thing, paid for by the Feds. Yes, MBTA did have to bless this, and they were cooperative; after all, they do own the ROW all the way from the Rhode Island border. What has MNCW done for Amtrak lately? It's not like there has been a lack of Federal money to be spent in CT.
AEM7
I guess I'd have to see, say, Caltrain vs. Amtrak to compare. Or why France kicked the locals off the tracks and Britain didn't, and Britain is having so much performance trouble.
But I want to see an overall doubling or tripling of Amtrak trains on the NEC. And I've played with a four-train hourly schedule from New Have (the current is three per direction) that can be doubled with no change in pattern to eight in peak hour. GREAT service attracts profitable traffic. Why continue to put up with adequate service and shoehorning three types of traffic together, and never make a profit, just because the current method of signaling has always worked. Okay, so it ain't broke. Fix it anyway.
Excuse me. France did not kick the locals off the tracks. France built new tracks for high speed trains to run on. The routing of the expresses and stop locations is every bit as controversial and politically charged as the routing for the B&O thru Maryland, and 150 years later, the routing for I-95.
Oh, and the new high speed tracks are so crap (for example, they use split two-block ties) that there is an axle load limit on the TGV lines of 12.5 tonnes per axle. Just to put that into perspective, that means the standard Amfleet would need eight axles (or D-D trucks) to run on TGV lines.
and Britain didn't, and Britain is having so much performance trouble.
How much do you really know about Britain's performance problems? Do you know what's causing the current performance issues right now? Do you know about railroad congestion and the relationship between scheduled runtime and on-time performance? Do you know the effect of automated data collection on performance reporting?
But I want to see an overall doubling or tripling of Amtrak trains on the NEC.
Why? The current trains run with consists between three and seven coaches, and they are rarely full (except at Thanksgiving and Christmas time). In fact they are rarely even loaded to beyond about 35% of total capacity.
GREAT service attracts profitable traffic.
So why did the Concorde fail to attract profitable traffic? Hell, it failed to even attract SIGNIFICANT traffic.
Why continue to put up with adequate service and shoehorning three types of traffic together, and never make a profit, just because the current method of signaling has always worked.
And just how exactly would you handle the repayment on the loan you took out to build the new infrastructure? Think you can do that out of the operating profits?
AEM7
Probably the significant problems could be summarised as capacity limitations in the following areas:
1) Birmingham New St
2) Leeds City
3) Cardiff Central / Caerdydd Canolog
4) Manchester Piccadilly (through platforms)
5) only 2 tracks Borough Mkt Jct - Metropolitan "C" Jct
6) only 2 tracks on the lines from Birmingham to:
- Coventry
- Dorridge
- Longbridge
- Wolverhampton
7) Single track between Coventry and Leamington Spa
8) The Birmingham Snow Hill - Wolverhampton route having only been reinstated as light fail
So why did the Concorde fail to attract profitable traffic? Hell, it failed to even attract SIGNIFICANT traffic.
Concorde didn't provide a great service, or even a significant one: no-one could afford to ride it.
I started downtown, got on an R-142 5 train at Wall St. I was headed for 51st to look at the Citicorp train exhibit. Well, I got to 14th Street, and just as the train stops in the station, I notice the door to the side platform is open! I immediately got off and took a pic on my camera phone, which I will post online if I ever figure out how. A minute later an R-142A 6 pulled in, and I took it to 51st.
The train exhibit was excellent, as expected. There was a pretty significant line, but it moved quickly. I THINK I might have seen some Subtalkers there - I was wearing a throwback Braves hat if anyone saw me. Anyway, after looking at the exhibit, I had an idea. I had never rode the G or the Franklin shuttle before, and I had to be at Union Square in about two hours. So I railfanned to kill some time.
I took an R-32 E one stop to Ely, then transferred to the G. Although it was an R-46, I did manage to see quite a bit just looking out the side windows. One thing that really surprised me about the G - it's fast! The train really moves quickly, even though it's a local. I took the G to Hoyt-Schermerhorn, then transferred to the C (R-32), which I took to Franklin Ave.
The shuttle was quite a different experience than riding most trains. It is certainly the only place in the city where trains operate on single-track bridges over streets and on top of buildings. Although the entire line was redone in 1999, many remnants of old remain. In several places along the line, there are stacks of cinder blocks leading up to the street, presumably old staircases. In addition, in the area between Franklin ave and Park Place, the ROW is still wide enough for two tracks, except over the bridges themselves. Despite these remnants, the MTA did a truly impressive job with the renovations.
I got off the shuttle at Prospect Park and took an R-40S to Manhattan. I got off at 14th Street with still about 30 minutes to spare. Overall, it was a pretty cool experience, one that I will surely repeat with other parts of the system I haven't seen yet. The Bronx IRT, Rockaways, and Inwood lines are all on my list.
Did the unusually bright lights at Bedford-Nostrand surprise you in any way? Some of my friends were railfanning the G line several months ago and both were surprised at how well-lit that station was, considering it was only a local stop and that it wasn't even renovated.
When did they extend them back to six? ::feeling very confused::
If they went back to six car trainsets, surely I would have heard it here a long time ago...
If Eat Fresh saw a 6-car G train...he may have traveled back in time to 2001...
FOUR.
Eat Fresh, either you got lucky, or you've simply miscounted. NO six car G trains to be seen.
--Mark
--Mark
"Interlocking Signal - Yellow Over Yellow Over Yellow (Yard Lead)
Yard Indication Signal. Proceed With Restricted Speed and Extreme Caution Expecting to Find The Track Occupied"
There you have it!
A) On non-mainline track, it is a call-on that doesn't require
one to use the stop release lever. The track between the signal
and the next signal (or the end of signal control) is expected to
be occupied.
B) On the mainline, it is used as a "third route" indication.
At the location in question, the train has a choice of
proceeding straight to 2nd Ave, going over the Manhattan Bridge,
or going to Essex St. Since there isn't a second home signal
to govern the route, the least-used route gets the triple yellow.
I'm not sure how the current rulebook deals with situation B,
i.e. whether the motorman has to proceed under restricted speed
rules. Unless things have changed, that "BJ" connector track
has continuous track circuits and is main line track, even
if there hasn't been scheduled passenger service over it in years.
I believe if the track ahead were occupied, the home signal would
not clear and a call-on (R/R/Y) would be needed to get the arm down.
A train on Sixth ave, must be on B3(EXP)TRK entering W4 for the Manh Bridge(when open) via B3 B/Laff and Grand st. A train on B1(LCL)TRK entering W4, and subsequently B1 at B/Laffayette, Has the choice of B5/6 TRKS at 2AVE, the V terminal, or B1 and on to Bklyn, the F route, or the BJ1 TRK going to Essex St, bound for the Willie B. The signal in question governs all three destinations, as per the route request buttons at B/Laff. Three yellows are for the cut. The point of no return for the Manh Bridge is north of W4.
Well for heavens sake I hope you were blending them into a mixed drink, at least!
A) Shortened control line
B) Second diverging route
C) Yard aspect
A & C are related.
A would occur on mainline layups like Church Ave, 179 tail tracks, etc. Normally one might get a top yellow high signal if the track was clear to the bumper, but 3 yellows if there were equipment in the farther section of the block.
B & A are also related, since 90% of the second diverging routes you're gonna take are either layup tracks [Atlantic/IRT], yard tracks [Ave X], or take you into a wrong-rail pocket [167/IND].
There's no consistency of application though. Generally it tells the motorman that something weird is about to happen!
I'm not a big fan of the indicators, to me its cheating!
Dave
Seriously, wanted to thank you, Jeff, Mike and Lou for this DELICIOUS topic! :)
This case is: "shortened control line"
Back to triple yellow: Back when the KK was in service, that y/y/y
lineup to BJ1 track was a mainline, revenue move. Can we think
of any other examples current or past where accepting a y/y/y was
part of the usual route? I would give the example entering 57/7
1/2 credit because that's sort of a relay (not in the "leave off
the last R for AAR" sense).
I can't think of anywhere else that meets the criterion of "mainline moves" with Y/Y/Y. It's really for yards and layups -- and it indicates restricted speed, so essentially is IS a call-on without the manual key, like you said. If B'way-Laff were resignaled today, the aspect in question would undoubtedly be removed and replaced with a route indicator - that contract has a lot of screwy things about it (Lou Hitch?) -- like odd numbered signals and even numbered crossovers.
If I could choose one concept to integrate into NYCT-think, it would be "restricting." The rules just repeat the paragraph definition of restricting over and over without ever naming it. [what would I remove? "semi-automatic" referring specifically to an approach signal]
95th St used to give Y/Y/Y into the terminal with four cars at the end of the pocket.
The BMT circumvented the problem with their bottom-Blue at DeKalb
Semi-automatic....oy vey! Does any official literature actually
(mis-) use that term for approach signals? What is the AAR/ARA
definition of semi-automatic anyway?
Semi-Automatic in the TA book, at least, agrees with the AAR:
"A signal controlled both manually [lever] and automatically [slotting]"
Semi-Automatic Stick, must be normalled to clear again.
Semi-Automatic Non-Stick, fully automatic with the lever reversed.
Actually, back then, it would have been y/y, and 2nd Av. middle was a call-on. This is what the sign posted near the punch at Bway-Laf said when I first came out, 3 years ago. Then later that year, when V service was started, it was changed. So the K did use a mainline aspect.
And since y/y/y is restricted speed, extreme caution, the rule does apply, since the track is rerely used, and we were warned of homeless who might be living there (to go slowly and honk the horn), so the aspect atually fits.
Wait, a call-on for the third route?
Call on does not imply a route.
Why would the slotting be down?
Disconnect, tape, tag, done!
Y/Y at X-54 means that there is 300 feet beyond the next signal [X-30] for you to overrun into safely if you hit it for some reason, and 33 switch is locked normal so no other train can be diverted into your overrun area.
Y/Y/Y at X-54 indicates restricted speed, extreme caution, prepared to stop in 1/2 range, etc, etc; because you don't have the 300' overlap and/or 33 switch is against you.
Its kinda like Y/Y/Y changes X-30 into a bumper block!
Wouldn't this situation normally be handled by locking
such that the approach signals would need to be normalled
before that trailing point switch could be reversed?
That is how it is handled, the locking is normal here. It's just that home signal X-54 is also acting as the approach for X-30.
54AS would be in 33LS with a 33NWC-back rider. For moves from 54 into A3 there might not be a quick release or it might include the whole station pocket.
Its been a year since I've been up around 57; I might have to take a "field trip" to visit those guys now that this has come up.
I am a long way from the typicals.....what relay controls the
yard aspect?
Later MTA designs just steer the lighting thru the WCs.
the DOH relay lets you know if you are picking up train orders ahead...
TA doesn't have Limited/Medium/Slow type speeds. How would speed signalling be useful in a RT application?
Cab Signals would be welcome though.
Then you change the aspects around to speed signaling. Since the MTA already has one home signal for every facing point switch just about if you didn't see a "straight" aspect you'd know you'd be diverging. Moreover, you'd get one block's advance warning by way of a distant signal.
Of course, with such a change you might as well just convert to speed based CSS.
We're not talking about freight trains that take a mile to stop.
But speed aspects don't convey "straight" or "diverging" positively, just a speed through the plant. You could say that generally a G/R/R means main line and R/G/R means diverging, but specifics would depend on the location -- and then you're contextualizing, and we're back where we started with Y/Y/Y at B'way-Laff. Neither speed nor route aspects provide enough specific information to preclude accountability on the part of personnel -- There's really no substitue for towermen and TO's knowing knowing the railroad they're operating.
amber could be for sharp-right diverge, and gold could be for sharp-left diverge. Canary would mean resticted speed on a straight route.
A device in the cab could read the wavelength of the signal color and then display speed/route info!
But playing games with shades of yeller is a REALLY bad idea. I'd sooner see a lit flag on top of the head like they do in England before we start playing "is it reddish yellow or greenish yellow?" down the iron ...
In the places you cite where there are multiple yellows in approach
to a red, there is a good reason. Those signals are spaced more
closely than normal. The first yellow does indeed tell you to
slow down and be prepared to stop, because the red signal which
is two or three signals away is in fact about the same distance
away as it would be for normal signal spacing. If you dismiss
it because "the red is 3 signals away", you'll probably hit the
signal.
What you are advocating would be handled under classic RR wayside
signaling as either an Advance Approach or Approach Medium.
That sort of thing is not necessary in a transit application where
blocks are short and service braking rates are very high.
(And all of those stopping distances are based on the R-1/9's braking curves, so in an R-46, you are going to hit the signal!)
Another idea I had was to use blue as "less restrictive" than green (to keep with the spectral order.) It would be the basic proceed signal in long fast clear strethces, while the greens would be used to approach the yellows. But still, just an idea to float around to give blue a traffic use (in the streets, it would mean "don't stop"-- even more opposite from red than green. I hate the way in the terror security codes they put blue between green and yellow).
What transit does is sort of inside-out. On the mainline it
is 3-block signals, but in approach to stations effectively
another speed level is introduced through the mechanism of
station time, which allows a train to get closer than the
normal separation distance under speed control.
And don't worry, when CBTC is implemented system-wide, shortly
before you retire, you'll have all the speed and advance
warning information you want.
Look for Zs2/Zs2v (direction) and Zs3/Zs3v (speed):
http://www.sh1.org/eisenbahn/snzs.htm
Beschleunigungsanzeiger(DB) K-Scheibe(DR) / Acceleration indicator:
driver should use maximum timetable speed to shorten driving time.
Verzögerungsanzeiger(DB) L-Scheibe(DR) / Delay indicator:
driver should lower speed by about 30 %.
We need some of those on the Lexington Ave Line!!!
Beschleunigungsanzeiger(DB) K-Scheibe(DR) / Acceleration indicator:
driver should use maximum timetable speed to shorten driving time.
Verzögerungsanzeiger(DB) L-Scheibe(DR) / Delay indicator:
driver should lower speed by about 30 %.
We need some of those on the Lexington Ave Line!!!
If two routes leading to the same station, you have a three or four track
configuration. Then the direction indicator shows f.e. "X" for the
eXpress track and "L" for the Local track.
If same speeds (else only with a speed indicator):
"W" Williamsburg
"R" Rutgers
and for layup speed restriction (enter track with bumper!)
If you NEED viagra then that might be considered a disability ;-)
OK, I can understand sign 1. It is intended to indicate that if your arm is broken, you stick it up so you can show the conductor that it's really broken and flashing. I don't understand sign 4. Why would a person with a broken leg also be pregnant? Or does it imply that the person is so fat that he twisted his ankle? The flashing leg does look like a baby.
AEM7
: )
lol
There are a lot of REAL signs in public everywhere that are funny, though
Nice to know we were on some survivors!
(note: I have a fond attachment to car #9311...)
How about I make you part of my train!
=p
1) Unlimited (be specific)
or
2) Pay-Per-Ride (how much is left on your account now?)
----
I am:
30-Day Unlimited
I refill 1nce a month via the $20 *(2 free rides) gimmick.
I miss the s#@t outta TOKENS.... but find the card "tolerable".
(Gahfobbid the thing forgets it's memory like that FUNPASS of mine..)
avid
It appears that the Dallas incidents were caused by people who were operating largely automatically, because they had been driving in the area for a while then, whoops, the rules changed because the light rail was built.
So, if they get the message across of “Hey, you can’t do that anymore!” then they have succeeded.
On the pedestrian front, the aim is to discourage the idiots who want to beat the train and don’t think that it doesn’t have the stopping power or manoeverability of an automobile.
Good luck to them, so that when the system opens for business, people are aware of it, so they stay safe!
The article does not outline “safety issues” but instead the fact that there will be heavy enforcement of safety rules on the system, especially relating to traffic crossing the line at-grade and violating said crossings.
The fotos are:
'NYCT Coney Island Rapid Transit Yard & Redbird' by Robert Mencher (2003)
A photo of a wrecked R-32 or something at the Yard
Photo of Orange Line Wellington Shops with a 01000 set on a hoist (1980)
Chuchubob's photo of NJTransit ALP-46 at Princeton Jct with Amtrak stock
Contributors will be acknowledged.
Please let me know if this is OK. If not, I will substitute other fotos that I have.
Thanks
AEM7
Sept 8
Aug 14
--Z--
The vast majority of these are holdout signals, enforcing the direction of traffic on a small or large length of track, as explained in the link.
Sometimes they protect drawbridges--a bridge is technically an interlocking.
Sometimes A and B homeballs [ie: X-A72, X-B72] are implemented to close trains in on one another across an interlocking. The A signal [farther from the switch] is the guarding signal, the B signal exists because its at the nearest point where a following train can close in on its leader on ST. Even though you don't _need_ another homeball there, I think it would be considered confusing and bad form to have an automatic signal just outside a switch, even if the switch was fully protected otherwise, also with the B signal present the train might be tripped (slightly) sooner should a point open up. Because of their positioning, the A gives only bottom green, while the B conveys route information.
One of my favorite cases of this would be York St, NB, where there is a homeball _between_ the facing point swtich and the trailing point switch of a double X-over. Leave it to the IND to engineer down to absolutes, and damn the complications!
Robert
Robert
I say this SOLELY because "racism" was alive and (not) well on the BMT in 1970 when I reported for my first time to Stillwell for my "assignment." As "whitebread," I was taken back extremely by the OPEN racism of the "Bensonhurst folks" I enede up working with. I grew up in the Bronx in the 50's and 60's and had never HEARD the "N word" until I was 12 or so ... and I grew up near the Marble Hill PJ's, so it ain't like I didn't have friends who were every color under the sun. Never got it, still couldn't fathom how color made a difference in who you made friends with and hung out with. Hell, we were ALL Bronxies. :)
I say that because somehow it MATTERED at the time amongst IRT and BMT people and it was amusing how the different "divisions" and the old-timers that were piping off the ship seemed very DEFINITELY "ethnically chosen" for the divisions. :(
Us *IND* guys though were considered "mongrels" since there was a large proportion of Italian and Black and Hispanic folks on the IND having finally put in their time whilst IRT and BMT retirees did indeed seem from a ... ummm ... largely white grouping. I got my butt in trouble MANY times for siding up with the folks I worked with in a dissident TWU faction known at the time as the "rank and file" which was comprised largely of minorities ...
In answer to your question, once the "New York City Transit System (BOT)" was formed, Civil service rules finally applied ... prior TO that though, the companies hired those they WANTED to and "niggers need not apply." ONLY the IND was "colorblind" up until the "recapture" as required by Civil Service Law ...
I know "E-Dog" got into a LOT of trouble here after bringing up the racism of NYCTA ... but despite him going off the deep end emotionally and FAILING in his explanations, racism was out of HAND between the IRT and BMT ... the IND was the ONLY railroad that would hire blacks and other minorities ... and it IRKED the "BMT boys" and the "IRT boys" to NO END how "N-bombers" were screwing up the white man's railroad ... I ain't "E-Dog" ... but I saw it as whitebread closeup and it bothered me to the point where I got screwed by my own TWU when I sided with the "wrong side." :(
On the other hand, I cannot recall any thing racist as a kid. If we said "eney miene mine more..." It was always a NICKLE that we caught by the toe, and I had never heard it said otherwise until I entered the Navy.
Here in North Dakota there are few blacks, mostly around the Air Force Bases, and for some in college who may have gotten scholarships. I cannot see a lot of people of ANY COLOR coming to North Dakota to live, without some sort of reason. (Statistics show that we are the only state in the union LOOSING population.) [Does the fact that it is -2 outside right now with a wind chill factor of -20 with no HIGHs above zero predicted for the next several days have anything to do about this?]
The county just to the south of us elected a black man as sheriff. He is almost certainly the only black person in the whole county, so clearly it was on merit, and because folks knew him.
Any racial problems we have out here would be viv a vis the Native American populations.
Elias
When I was growing up it was always "Catch a tiger by the toe....." . Believe it or not I believed it was so until a few months ago when I read about a lawsuit against a major airline. It seems that after a protracted delay, the ramp supervisor made an informal announcement:
Eeny, meeny miny moe, get on board, we're gonna go".
Two ladies 'of color' took offense to the announcement based not on the ramp supervisor's intent but on the version that they allegedly heard while growing up. I believe that based on the principle of "it's not the intent of the sender but the perception of the receiver", the ladies suit prevailed. I don't know what the settlement was.
This is correct. We have a sample of this in "sensitivity lectures" that we have heard from time to time. In one of these, to demonstrate this, a volunteer is obtained from the audience, and everyone is told that "nothing below the collar" would be touched. The speaker then puts his hands on the "victim's" then with his little finger, fondles the victim's ears. They always jump back as if they were groped or something.
Messages are not the same to the sender as to the receiver.
We saw that here a month or so ago when Jersey Mike said something that I took offence with.
Heck, during WW-II, the "V" victory sign was always sexually offensive to on of our allies. If given palm forward, the Greeks intrepreted it as "rubbing your face in it" and if given with the back of the hand... well that means something else too.
Elias
So how can I make decisions if I can't say "eeenie meenie miny moe" any more?? Heck that's how I choose whether to go on the Saturday or Sunday MOD trip for example ;-)
As in eeenie meenie miny moe - catch an Arnine by the bow....
In the workplace it becomes even more absurd. 2 examples:
1) You are telling a joke with a sexual connotation to a fellow employee. He finds it hillarious but another person overhears it and is offended by it. You can be found guilty of creating a hostile work environment.
2) Some time ago many NYCT busses has a large Calvin Klein ad displayed on their outsides. The ad showed many young people (presumably 15 years old or so) in Calvin Klein underware. One person in the bus depot liked the picture enough to hang one in the locker room. He was charged with sexual harassment when someone objected. The ad was, however, deemed okay in the depot when on the outside of the bus.
Gee.... I sure hope they were not looking for a handicapped seat on a Japanese train!
I know - I had actually heard the story before reading this thread - our legal system has run amok IMHO.... The problem as I see it is that some people may not even be aware that something has racial connotations - take the EMMM rhyme - unless you grew up knowing that it contained the n- word, you merely assume that it is a cute rhyme and make up your own ending like the Airline employees did...
Now imagine getting caught with this game at work ;-)
Just to confuse things, supervision works geographically, and overlaps the divisions indiscriminately.
30 years after Selkirk hired on, everybody has come in through civil service, every division is like the UN. Guys as a rule just pick the division with the most potential work locations close to their house; For example if you lived in the Bronx, CT, or Upstate, you'd want to pick IRT since the have the most sectons in he Bronx.
Since by rule maintainers never crossed divisional lines at all until 3 years ago, you'll find that old time BMT guys don't know air equipment, old IRT guys don't know 3-position, etc...
Of course, it was not all TWU at first, an issue not resolved until after the TWU helped break the last MBA strike in the 1950s.
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/nycodes/c98/a9.html
Given they way some people/unions/management behave, I am not so sure that it *is* civil at all!
What ever happened to those Arrow I 's taken out of service a few years back?
Even though some space has been taken from the extreme ends of some platforms on the QB line, was enough space left to still platform a 660 ft train? That is from the platform edge to the wall of the closed off area. Is it 3ft or 4ft. wide or less?
avid
IINM, the "Bitanic" was scrapped and the FL-9s were returned to Metro-North.
Of course, Drain Dude would rather I be incorrect because he gets his jollies in insulting people.
That is if we're assuming that "in commission" is in revenue service!
As for my being incorrect as "usual," you obviously don't know what you're talking about.
Now, if you intend to steal ideas from Jersey Mike, at least use them correctly ,|,,
Offense intended.
Not that I am saying that I don't enjoy the occasional zinger of the same type that everyone else of the board likes to direct at me. Still, I keep those aimed at those I am at war with and non-aligned news articles.
I can find a lot more that Train Dude attacked. That's real class.
http://www.boarshevik.com/streports/
avid
Have you heard of anything about the possibility of NJ Transit extending the NEC from Trenton making a non-stop run to 30th St Station or prehaps terminating at Surburban Station, this would eliminate the change at Trenton from the NEC & SEPTA's R7 line & would shave the commute between New York & Philadelphia by a half hour.
Also, what's new in regarding the possibility of NJ Transit taking over the Clocker service from Amtrak & what year will this take over take effect.
The references are in the Capital Plan, where the takeover is part of the justification for buying new ALP46s and double-stack coach stock (as here).
However, has there been any movement on the rolling stock? The last update on the web site says that the project isn’t fully funded (despite a kick-in of $250 million from the PA). Also it’s the beginning of 2004–don’t you think we would be seeing the first of the coaches arriving for evaluation/testing to make a 2006 date?
Lastly, where did you determine that NJT is only going to operate as far as Trenton? I can’t find any information about this. I’m sure that going from fast Amfleet to a NJ Transit/SEPTA combination is going to cause a great deal of ire in the Pennsylvania contingent (I’m assuming that Amtrak will release the slots into NY Penn so the only fast alternative would be possibly one train each way during the rush hour).
Lastly, where did you determine that NJT is only going to operate as far as Trenton?
Rail advocacy groups and NJT employees. Passenger levels west of Trenton are not sufficient for NJT to justify negotiating trackage rights to continue to Philly.
Don’t ask me why Amtrak or NJT is trying to be hush-hush on the matter…but with all the long-term static, it seems utterly likely that Clocker service to Philly will be meeting its end in the next few years.
The last change was for the opening of Secaucus Junction.
There has been no change in plans as to where the HBLRT terminates in the south end. The plan is still to extend to 8th Street and 5th Street (the latter station presumably on the old CNJ Avenue A Branch) although no timetable has been set as yet. (Insofar as outrageous proposals, George Warrington’s predecessor at NJT, Jeffrey Warsh, once stated in the press that he would “like to see” a tunnel under Newark Bay that would connect the HBLRT to the proposed Newark-Elizabeth LRT system…)
As far as the north leg of the HBLRT, extending to Tenafly via the former Erie RR Northern Branch is not set in stone (no funding nor DEIS); there are no plans either to divert the service away from its original northern terminus of the Vince Lombardi Park/Ride in Ridgefield.
TSTC's MTR Issue 384, dated September 23, 2002, says otherwise. An article in that issue, entitled "Change of Route for Hudson-Bergen Light Rail," states the following:
"In action by the NJTPA last week, freeholders and agency personnel who comprise the body voted to drop the description of the Hudson-Bergen light rail as extending from the Vince Lombardi park-and-ride in Ridgefield to Bayonne’s West 5th Street. They replaced it language indicating that the line would be extended along the Northern Branch to Tenafly.
"When this action was questioned by acting Hudson County Executive Bernard Hartnet, NJTransit’s representative assured him that NJTransit was still committed to three passenger rail projects in Bergen County and that the change was not significant (the other projects being the West Shore Line and a Cross-Bergen line).
"No one could explain why the Northern Branch option was not simply added to the existing plan, rather than replacing it. We have previously reported (#371) that local interests and the McGreevey Administration apparently have agreed that the Northern Branch extension will be advanced first among the three, and that it will seek funding for it during the 2003 federal transportation reauthorization."
Check out the pictures.
Click here: Webshots Community - lstmysock1's Photo Home Page
http://community.webshots.com/user/lstmysock1
Great photo!
Submission for January 2004 has begun, so post them photos!
Chuck Greene
Julian
Assuming you succeed in breaking the key, you probably get to use the card once or twice before the computers catch it and the card is disabled. So your return is $4 max per card.
If you are determined to commit fraud (not recommended by the way), pick something with a greater return on effort!
That’s why I said that this particular fraud is definitely just not worth it!
Back ten years ago before the credit card industry improved thier backend computers it was possible to recode credit cards. Each bank had a series of numbers assigned to them. You would be able to get $400-$500 off them before tey got locked out. A better return on investment then $4-$10 with metrocard.
If you are going commit fraud make it worth while.
Unless you wanted the intellectual challenge, it’s seriously not worth it!
And as an amusing side issue, the tolerance for hacking, intellectual property theft and cybercrime is slowly eroding. This is counterfeiting, plain and simple, and more people may be doing heavy time for these things in the future.
It would be possible for the TA to have Cubic re-code the system so that using a bogus card would trigger an alarm (the easiest thing to do would just be to have the turnstile beeper go off continuously instead of the current "freep" when a fraudulent card is used). However, until fraud losses approach the exorbitant fees that Cubic charges to make changes, I doubt the TA would implement this. That doesn't make it any less illegal / wrong, though.
Regarding "encryption" on the cards, I don't know if they are encrypted or not (I never bothered to check). However, given that there is a relatively small amount of data on the stripes (see below) and you have a good amount of the plaintext conveniently available to you (it is printed on the back of the card - serial number, expiration date, etc.) you have a pretty good advantage.
The upper track is the fixed control track with the serial number, expiration date, etc.) and the lower track is the two most recent transactions. The upper track is never written once the card is coded (I'm told at Jay St.).
I'm pretty sure that either the data are encrypted, or a CRC
is taken and encrypted with a shared secret key.
It's simple enough. Have a database sitting on mainframe, and in this database is a table of MetroCard serial numbers, their types (Pay-Per-Ride, Unlimited, Reduced-Fare, etc.), the remaining balance, the end date for an Unlimited MetroCard, and the expiration date. Then, when a card is isssued, an entry is added to the database containing the serial number and proper information. Whenever the card is used, the farebox or turnstile sends a request to the database server which validates the card info and makes the proper deduction from the card's balance, then sends a response message back to the farebox. This is completely decentralized, and no information is stored on the card other than the serial number.
Right, it would require a bunch of very long cables
Actually each farebox gets certain files updated every night, e.g. you report you MC stolen. Tommorow the thief trys to use it on a bus & it don't work ... e.g. 1/1/04 all the frebox were told to stop counting tokens as a form of fare payment.
A number of reasons - the system was designed to operate in a degraded mode if a station lost contact with the central computer. This happens more than you might think. It also means that the system would have to close (or allow everyone free entrance) whenever the central computer was down for maintenance. While this could be reduced to brief intervals with redundant systems, it would still cause problems.
Then there are the buses, which don't have real-time contact with the central system.
The current implementation stores the two most recent transactions on the card, and updates the central computer with usage information at scheduled intervals (18 minutes for the subway, and end-of-shift for the buses). At that point, discrepancies are processed and any cards with suspicious discrepancies (presumably, more than one fare's worth of difference) are voided out of the system by adding them to a blacklist sent to each of the station controllers (subway) and fareboxes (buses). There are also other steps that can be taken - for example, instead of voiding a card, it can be configured to trigger a real-time alert (at least one non-employee using an employee card was caught this way).
It is a reasonably clever system which combines a stored-value card with central validation.
When it works ... had two days with errors at this depot this week :-(
Would you believe 12,032 Half Fare students got on a bus at 13:23. Larry, just keep believing what they tell you about how good it works.
It seems to be a perennial favorite for NYC hackers though, and this TimeOut NY article seems to indicate it was hacked in 2002, and discussed at the 2002 edition of HOPE (H2K2), although I couldn't find any of the firsthand information on it.
Click Here
Where Were You? 1974 Baseball Tee
Regards,
TL
I have some suggestions too. I liked both your store's and the TA's official Transit Museum store kid section, why don't add more kid stuff like backpacks. Backpacks with Blue (A,C,E) Orange (B,D,F,V), Yellow (N,Q,R,W), Red (1,2,3,9) Green (4,5,6) Brown (J,M,Z) grey (S), G, L, of course 7.
I welcome any suggestions and items that anyone would like to see on a shirt or poster or bag.
The kids stuff is a little sketchy, I will work on more kiddie items if I see that it sells well.
Thanks for your support and POSITIVE feedback.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
I also think the green paint scheme was better looking than the redbird scheme.
Next stop on the Sea Beach, Fort Hamilton Parkway.
#3 West End Jeff
P. S. Hold the onions.:)
N Broadway
Oh By the way, I will be purchasing a "W" tee-shirt for the affair. Black tee-shirt with yellow circle and black letter.
W Broadway Local
N Broadway Express
Da Hui
A few hours earlier, we will be riding the D train over the West End line in Brooklyn, if you want, be there at 34th st/6th Ave at 11:30 PM that night.
Ground Zero
Central Park
Broadway
Times Sqaure
Wall Street
Little Italy
Thanks
Chuck
Times Sq --> N/R/Q?W/1/2/3/7/9 and 42 St Shuttle.
Wall St, one of the exits at Broad St (J/M/Z) will lead you directly in front of the NYSE. You can also try the Wall St stations for the 2/3 trains or the 4/5 trains.
Little Italy...N/R/Q/W/J/M to Canal St and then walking.
Central Park --> N/R/W to Fifth Avenue.
Broadway --> which parts of Broadway?
Or:
- A/B/C/D to 59th St
- B/C to any station between 59th St and 110th St
- 2/3 to 110th St
Broadway --> which parts of Broadway?
Well, for the majority of its length it's the 1 train...
Central Park-B,C (from 59-110th streets)
Broadway-1,9,A,C,E,N,Q,R,W
Times Square-A,C,E,N,Q,R,S,W,1,2,3,9,7
Wall Street-J,M,Z,2,3,4,5
Little Italy-S (Grand Street shuttle until 2/22), J,M,Z,N,Q,R,W,6 (Canal St)
Here it goes: Let's say that the F remains where it is now, and the V is rerouted through the 63rd St tubes, then down the SAS. This would leave Queens Plaza serviced by only the E and R trains. Would the capacity then exist to extend the G to Queens Plaza, and terminate there? The trackmap I have for the area shows a single track north of the Queens plaza station which might be suitable for turning trains, if there aren't too many of them. As we all know, there aren't too many G trains. Do you think that this would be possible, without distrupting the remaining E and R services?
I think with all the development going on in LIC, the citylights condo buildings (more going up soon), the corporate offices (citigroup, metlife), etc - that the area on a whole is going to need better transit and that improved G service will be key.
I think it's only a matter of time. It's a key link that is facing increased demand for service that is on par with the rest of the system.
No they didn't; that was a post-unification change - some time in the 50's, IINM.
If anyone can point me in the right direction, I would be much obliged.
I have already done that. In fact I have made several lines. The "Flagship" Line that I have built is the Myrtle / Fifth Avenue Subway.
It does not join any existing line because, 1) all existing trunks are already running at or near capacity; and 2) This is a fully automated line with express runs in excess of 75 mph.
: ) Elias
Not the J/M/Z.
(We spend more than that in Iraq!)
OK... bonds are needed to spread the cost out over 50 years.
And.. It provides construction jobs, and other jobs,
And.. It improves the infrastructure of the city.
It also renovates some neighborhoods
Roads in the area would also be rebuilt, and those would have to be rebulit, perhaps several times anyway over the life of the rail line.
It improves the quality of life in the city, and moves people away from polutomobiles.
All in all, a win-win situation and cheap at the price.
: ) Elias
The Outback Steakhouse I'm talking about is on the second level of the Queens Place facility. For the map itself, it's located in the hallway leading to the restrooms.
If you need an excuse to eat at Outback and to go to Queens, you might as well go there and check it out. :-) It's between the Woodhaven Blvd station and the Grand Avenue stations for the G, R and V trains.
Chuck Greene
Along with posters of that idiot Jared.
The Applebee's in Battery Park City is loaded with subway crap.
Rumor has it the Lo-V that was recently found in Pennsylvania was purchased by Applebee's to go into one of their PA restauarants.
Now why would you want to eat at a place that doesn't even update their subway maps?
I say we boycott that place!!
We could all take turns picketing in shifts.
I did a double-take, until I realized it wasn't a current map... =)
I know it'd take more than a subway map to get me to go to an Outback Steakhouse here in Chicago ...
Let us know what NJT says!
David
1. Is there enough ridership south of Rahway (where the Coast Line kicks in) to justify a 10-minute headway?
2. Is there enough capacity in the Hudson River tube for 6 NJT-Corridor trains per hour plus all existing Coast Line trains plus all existing Morris/Essex trains plus all existing Amtrak trains?
2. No. But not all trains need to go to NY Penn. We need Access to the Region’s Core sooner than 2015 or whenever, to give us the extra capacity under the Hudson.
I don’t know why it has to be third rail though, but I believe in EMUs for commuter lines rather than loco-pulled trains.
There IS single track operation. It's Amtrak's GO.
Amtrak is rebuilding the North River tunnels on weekends. All Amtrak and NJT trains use the open tunnel (single track) for 25 minutes in one direction, then after the last train clears, 25 minutes in the other direction. With 2 NJT NEC trains, one Coast Line and one Midtown Direct train, plus an Amtrak Acela or Metroliner and an Amtrak Regional, plus frequently a Keystone or long distance train per hour, all squeezing through the tunnel in 25 minutes, that's 3-minute headways, which is what the schedule calls for.
Rundown:
R32 - 3885(C) SB
R32 - 3401(C) SB
R46 - 5578(G) NB
R32 - 3421(E) SB
R142A - 7465(6) SB
R62A - 1920(S)
R40-Slant - 4248(W) SB
R68 - 2700(D)
R38 - 3982(C) SB
Plus, the shorter consists used on the G may also contribute to it feeling fast.
Stand clear of the closing doors please.
On the other hand, faced with a pushy, impatient person from the New York area…:-)
As for the airlines, they usually have one jetway. It’s only in the bigger airports that you get two, and then one is usually reserved for business/first class passengers. The plebs still have to wait, which can be a loooooooong time when it’s a 747 that’s unloading!
Similarly with Amtrak. Big stations with high level platforms are wonderful, but if you’re out in East Podunk, with just a finished strip of blacktop next to the rails, then Amtrak will only open one door and everyone has to wait their turn.
The corollary to everyone boarding early is that cabins need to be ready early, which means an increase in cleaning staff, etc, etc.
Airlines operate under an entirely different principle, where they want to have their assets (planes) in the air as much as possible, so they have invested in quick turnaround facilities (planes being unloaded/loaded with people from one side while being serviced with food and loaded with bags from the other.
Plus, I guess there's a lot you have to do between boardings, just watch all the little forklifts and trucks go to restock the whole ship.
Simple, it's a line that is in need of maintenance. They want to do all of this work without disturbing service as much as possible, which explains most GO's on weekends.
have they started installing the CTBC ( i saw some new signals) ?
Jersey Mike can explain those new signals quite well. I do know for a fact that the trippers are electrically triggered instead of pneumatically, so it's a bit longer. Not to mention the lights themselves are still incandescent... CBTC has to prove itself on the Canarsie Line before we see remotely anything on the 7.
Crap's crap, and gets replaced for a reason.
can an r-142 show 5 to Times Square?
What is it with the whole "new is better" sentiment on subtalk?
Same thing. Neither one makes any sense. Sometimes the new happens to be better. Sometimes the old happens to be better.
wayne
But then the novelty wore off and I started to miss the MP54's and other electrics like them plus the old double deckers. There is something very railroady about climbing the stems from a low platform, standing in the vestibule with the door open, reversible seats, etc. The M-1's seats were always too hard, on the older trains you would just sink into the seat.
At least you still had the diesels. But then they ruined them by putting M1-M3 type non-reversible hard seats in them and also by putting an engine in the rear.
So, to be honest, after the novelty wore off in the first year, I started hating the M-1's.
Shitty boarding at Hartford was another reason I was more than glad when I stopped taking Amtrak home on the weekends...
The construction of them is what gave LIRR the excuse to close many stations, citing that it cost too much to build the new platforms for those now closed stations. And even if they were telling the truth, there's anyother reason. They cost too much. Plus, it's a higher maintenance cost.
"They give better passenger control, better boarding, and attract riders."
Tell that to Chicago. All those reasons above are pure lies. Metra, TriRail, Superliner. They all use low level platforms and have LEVEL BOARDING at those low level platforms. Yea, I agree, level boarding is a must, but high level platforms aren't.
"Who cares if it keeps megawide freights from passing?"
I do. And FYI, it's not megawide trains. NYA has to travel at limited speeds through stations because just a little sway and the boxcars are hittin the platforms, and those aren't exactly megawide trains.
"There's not much freight on the LIRR,"
Lies lies lies. You ever see the LIE? It's like a truck stop. I think I can safely say that there is quite a bit of freight on LI.
"I don't think the LIRR should be turned into a mini CSX anyway, since it serves a much more important purpose moving people, right now."
It wouldn't. LIRR gave over freight operations to NYA years ago. And if you don't think rail freight on LI would be good, take a look at how much the trucks are screwin up the environment and how much they add to the traffic problem. Transportin even just 20% of that by rail would help LIers live easier. Hey, I'm a fan of trucking, but I'm also a fan of being real.
PRAY FOR MOJO
Long into short: M1'a RULE
You're so wrong about that.
1) Some will be retained.
2) Some may be sold.
3) Some will be scrapped.
Most of the Vickers ones will survive the 678 M-7 car onslaught.
I don't think the 2nd batch will survive the M-7 onslaught. There will be option orders.
I remember in college seeing 2 M-2's on the rear of a Conrail freight in April 1976 going through Dunkirk, NY.
I am not too confident with option orders given the MTA's growing debt problems.
And the old fleet sucked just as hard. The ex MP cars rode like shit, were noisy as hell, and just as slow. They also smelled like piss and were flithy at best.
Sniff! Sniff!
FWIW, I ride Metro-North MU trains an avg 3-4 times a week and I don't see too much difference between the M1s and the much newer M3s. I think a lot depends on when they were last shopped. This summer I noticed that many of the M1s had excellent a/c, though some were not so good. A lot of the Ms have been reupholstered and they're still pretty comfortable. The heat has always been good in winter. And, at least on Metro-North, they're brightly lit. (LIRR cars always seem to have a couple ceiling lights out, with 'dark' spots in certain areas of the cars. Makes it tough to read the fine print.)
I think the main reason they're gonna be scrapped is the major components are now 30-plus years old and maintenance costs are climbing.
BTW - The M-1s use G4 and G4A brake packages
I recall that some of the PCCs I've operated apply dynamic, pneumatic, and track brake when they go BIE. That's one heck of a stop!
On the other hand - when the brakepipe goes to 0 in any car, the emergency contactor drops out instantaneously. This allows B+ to energize the EMVs trainline to permit all cars of the train to go into emergency at the same instant. This is the same contactor that applies CB+ to the controller when the cars are charged and prevents CB+ from being on the controller whent he train is in emergency. This is a failsafe to prevent a car taking power with no air in the system.
If we were to provide a seperate B+ in emergency to allow the controller to run into dynamic brake, then you permit the possibility os a single-point failure to permit a car to take power without air brake protection. All things considered, it's not worth the difference. After all, brake rates of NYCT cars are 3 MPH/Sec in emergency and 3.2 MPH/Sec. in max brake. Not really much of a difference at the speeds NYCT equipment operates at.
Now thinking about it, I was on a Boston MBTA Type-7 two-car train of streetcars some years ago that broke apart while moving at about 30mph. It went BIE (I was in the second car), and EVERYONE standing ended up falling over. It was so harsh, that the operator came through the car asking if anyone needed medical assistance. Fortunately, no one did.
You were on the car the led to the whole slewing bearing refit program? The one that broke apart between A and B sections? Or did you mean two car train separating into two one car trains?
Not according to NTSB braking tests (pp 20-22) that were conducted as a result of the Williamsburg Bridge accident.
Three tests were made at the site of the accident (p 20). Emergency braking was used for the first two tests. The stopping distances were 364.5 and 358.5 feet from the point where the brakes were applied, with the train going at 34 mph. This corresponds to braking rates of 2.33 and 2.37 mph/sec. A third test was made with full service braking. The stopping distance was 162.17 feet from the point where the brakes were applied with the train going at 33 mph. This corresponds to a braking rate of 4.94 mph/sec.
Additional tests were made on a test track (p 22, Table 5). Three series of tests were made with both service and emergency brakes from a nominal 20, 30 and 40 mph.
The emergency braking rates for Test No 1 were: 2.69 mph/sec from 19.5 mph; 2.78 mph/sec from 29 mph and 2.89 mph/sec from 37.5 mph.
The emergency braking rates for Test No 2 were: 2.48 mph/sec from 19.3 mph; 2.71 mph/sec from 30.1 mph and 2.85 mph/sec from 39.5 mph.
The emergency braking rates for Test No 3 were: 1.73 mph/sec from 20 mph; 2.04 mph/sec from 29.7 mph and 2.30 mph/sec from 39.2 mph.
The service braking rates for Test No 1 were: 2.64 mph/sec from 19.1 mph; 2.75 mph/sec from 29.9 mph and 3.10 mph/sec from 38.3 mph.
The service braking rates for Test No 2 were: 2.26 mph/sec from 21.0 mph; 2.64 mph/sec from 30.7 mph and 2.99 mph/sec from 40.3 mph.
The service braking rates for Test No 3 were: 2.34 mph/sec from 20.8 mph; 2.54 mph/sec from 31.3 mph and 2.89 mph/sec from 39.6 mph.
There were 11 emergency braking tests. The brakes failed to meet the 3.2 mph/sec rate in all tests. The best performance was 2.89 mph/sec.
There were 10 service braking tests. The brakes met the 3.0 mph/sec rate in only 2 of these tests and came very close (2.99 mph/sec) in one other.
The big difference with PCCs is that the operator can presumably
sense if the wheels are sliding and take appropriate action
(drop sand, back off on the brakes, or push down harder and
try the track brakes). With MU equipment, the motorman doesn't
have that kind of fine control.
I believe the thinking of the BOT here was that emergency should
be an almost separate fail-safe braking system. We don't want
to rely on the dynamic brake system, which is pretty complex
and can get knocked out in a number of ways, as part of our
stopping means. So, the car has to be able to deliver the
3.2 MPH/s spec decel rate in emergency purely through friction
braking. If you allowed the dynamics to work also, then you
could achieve a higher rate, but you'd have to introduce slip-slide
control to prevent the wheels from locking up and achieving a
lower effective rate, and there we go again relying on complicated
control circuits
Believe it or not, the R14X cars, for all their over-complexity,
have the same thing. If the brake pipe pressure falls rapidly,
a purely pneumatic emergency valve takes over and applies a
specified pressure to the cylinders, regardless of what the
computer says.
Most inductive pickup sensors tends to drop off the face of the earth at low RPMs, whereas hall effect types won't. Inductives are cheap and easy, halls are more expensive and a bit harder. There's variable reluctance too, but I think they drop off at some point also.
I'm guessing it's an analog system, though even still, noticing a high rate of change isn't that hard. Of course, this assumes it's 2004, an op amp costs 3 cents, and actually performs well. In the 60's / 70's, that wasn't the case. 741s aren't spectacular, weren't cheap back then, and thus obvious features tended to get dropped from things. It's easy today to say that if you notice 4 axles achiving a 5 or 6 mph/s deceleration on equipment that can't do better than 3.0 or so, they're locking, but years ago? That actually cost money and board space and all. So it wasn't dropped or wasn't well implemented, and you get slides as a result. Oh yeah, and this is all analog, so it drifted depending on pretty much everything. I have some test equipment that's quite stable, if you're willing to wait an hour or so before use. And that's not in a place that's shaking, changing temperature, and voltage all the time.
Heck even simpler feedback controls weren't common - automatic fine tunning on TV sets litteraly was the addition of 4 or 5 components, yet took forever before it was standard. Same with automatic chroma gain on color sets (RCA didn't have it until at least beyond CTC-16)
Interesting. Breda cars on MBTA had similar problems, in service braking. My recollection is that they had to resort to a hack to fix that problem. If all four wheels are detected to be sliding, the computer actually assumes that the car is decelerating at the same rate as it was before the wheels began to slide. The Bredas are supposed to maintain a service braking rate of 2.0 mphps regardless of slide conditions and speed of train.
www.forgotten-ny.com
The M-1's ride is better if you can believe it. Also the M-3 truck is not the same as the M-1. The M-1 is a Budd Pioneer truck, the M-3 is something different and explains the harsh ride. BTW, you can't interchange M-1 and M-3 trucks.
Bill "Newkirk"
avid
SEND AVID READER TO BELLEVUE !
Bill "Newkirk"
What the R46 doorchime should sound like.
R46 5987
R46 5910
R46 5772
No better way to send us off than having R46s 5987 and 5986 close together.
May these anomalies live on...
Chimes after the doors open means they will close (eventually). The current chime-as-they-close doesn't give sight-impaired people the chance to get out of the way, as was originally contemplated.
Da Hui
MAKE IT STTTTTTTOOOOOOOOOPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP!!
1:12 of absolutely an R40 that should be put out of it's misery.
#3 West End Jeff
No idea how it started, or what could possibly create it.
#3 West End Jeff
They're going to start working on it AFTER the Second Avenue Subway is completed!
Seriously - here is a website that has a summary of the reasons we don't have that tunnel:
http://www.panix.com/~danielc/nyc/sibktunl.htm
Also there are bellmouths at:
-South of the 59 Street, Brooklyn Station
-South of the Whitehall Street, Manhattan Station
Another service would be via north shore line from St George to NJ, either up the new(well, recently resurected) freight line and/or down to princeton.
And then of course HBLR extension to the south shore
Now, it's rather tedious to reach Bay Ridge from Manhattan by subway. Sure, there's express service over the Manhattan Bridge, and more coming on Feb 22nd, but in all likelihood it'll be sacrificed to trackwork on weekends, and the MTA loves to curtail express service when it can overnights.
The best bet is what you have now...subway to south ferry, 20-minute ferry ride, and the SIRR whose schedule is arranged to coincide with when the ferry berths.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I think the problem is what NYW would have to charge to be profitable - they were charging $5 for the LIC - Pier 11 run. Then they would need sufficient ridership - they got out of the LIC ferry run because they claimed ridership wasn't sufficient to pay for the service in spite of the $5 fare...
Why would a Staten Islander pay $5 or more for a service he/she could ride for free? Yes - some will place speed at a premium and pay the premium price but I don't think that there would be sufficient ridership to sustain an NYW route..
It expands in the summer and contracts in the winter...
The 63rd St tunnel was connected to the Queens Boulevard line.
Stillwell Avenue reconstruction has meant temporary closings and shortenings of lines.
The curves at Snediker Ave are being straightened.
I don’t count the Manhattan Bridge flip, as arguments can be made that this is replacing like with like.
However, there is a lot of information and photographs and maps and…in the pages here. It’s a good idea to read about history there, and then ask more detailed questions about the missing pieces if you find any.
To answer your question, Yes.
The answer is 42.
: )
Learn well, otherwise you might have to listen to some Vogon poetry!
Sunday night, the 2230.5 Stillwell stops at Dekalb. Monday morning, the 0530 Stillwell bypasses Dekalb.
Monday night, the 2239 Stillwell stops at Dekalb. Tuesday morning, the 0530 Stillwell bypasses Dekalb.
Tuesday night, the 2239 Stillwell stops at Dekalb. Wednesday morning, the 0530 Stillwell bypasses Dekalb.
Wednesday night, the 2239 Stillwell stops at Dekalb. Thursday morning, the 0530 Stillwell bypasses Dekalb.
Thursday night, the 2239 Stillwell stops at Dekalb. Friday morning, the 0530 Stillwell bypasses Dekalb.
Friday night, the 2239 Stillwell stops at Dekalb. Saturday morning, the 0617 Stillwell bypasses Dekalb.
Saturday night, the 2238 Stillwell stops at Dekalb. Sunday morning, the 0537.5 Stillwell bypasses Dekalb.
Sunday night, the 2323 205St stops at Dekalb. Monday morning, the 0616 205St bypasses Dekalb.
Monday night, the 2323 205St stops at Dekalb. Tuesday morning, the 0616 205St bypasses Dekalb.
Tuesday night, the 2323 205St stops at Dekalb. Wednesday morning, the 0616 205St bypasses Dekalb.
Wednesday night, the 2323 205St stops at Dekalb. Thursday morning, the 0616 205St bypasses Dekalb.
Thursday night, the 2323 205St stops at Dekalb. Friday morning, the 0616 205St bypasses Dekalb.
Friday night, the 2323 205St stops at Dekalb. Saturday morning, the 0628 205St bypasses Dekalb.
Saturday night, the 2324 205St stops at Dekalb. Sunday morning, the 0507.5 205St bypasses Dekalb.
The first southbound B leaves Bedford Park at 0525.5; the last southbound B leaves 145 St at 2055.
The first northbound B leaves Brighton at 0558; the last northbound B leaves Brighton at 2038.
The previous threads have grown so hard to follow, I couldn't decide where to post this, so I started a new one.
Alex seems to be saying that during the mid night hours, the D will stop at DeKalb. But what about the transition period from 9 to midnight? And what about weekends?
So Brighton riders with Saturday classes at NYU or going to Yankee games are still being screwed and forced into 10 minute walks to transfer when a simple switching operation would avoid that. Such stupidity and absurdity on the part of the geniuses at MTA who formulated this plan. I still bet they never considered it. Some planner looked at a map and said, it's no big deal...they can change at Atlantic or at 34th not realizing it's a schlep.
Canarsie riders have to change trains too.
Yankee Statium is not a valid comparison.
Remote to Remote locations may always presume at least one transfer, and it is just luck if a through train will serve you.
NYU *is* a valid comparison because it is in the CBD. Schedules and services are designed to bring people to the Manhattan CBD.
But if you were going to the Javits Center, neither train would get you any closer than the (Q) would get you to NYU.
Elias
Nobody is objecting to the transfer. I understand that. But for people having to transfer, and this is a special case, it should be as easy as possible. The whole point, and even you agreed several posts ago, is that there is no eartly reason whether it be congestion on the tracks, lack of cars or anything else, not to have the D stopping at DeKalb at all times when the B is not running. Simple and very doable. Since 1967 for the most part Brighton has been both a Broadway and 6th Avenue line. MTA has decided Brighton is more a Broadway line but by putting on the B train 16/5 they have sort of said Brighton is also a 6th Avenue line, right? Therefore, it would seem to me that when the B is not running, Brighton riders should have the easy transfer at DeKalb for 6th Avenue service.
Hopefully the politicians in Brighton and Flatbush will realize what is being imposed on Brighton riders for reasons that nobody throughout these threads has been able to explain. The tracks have plenty of capacity to ensure D trains stop at DeKalb when the B is not running and that is a very simple service pattern to institute and to understand.
The one seat ride is not the issue really. I don't think you've been following the real issue. Simply put, as has been said 150 times or more by various people, the D should stop at DeKalb when the B is not running as Brighton people have no convenient access to 7th Avenue when the B is not running if the D is not stopping at DeKalb. This should not be a major problem to implement. Without the B running, the tracks are not so crowded that the D can't stop at DeKalb. Personally I think this issue was never considered by the MTA and I just don't understand how stopping the D at DeKalb during the times the B is not running can possibly have a negative affect on anything the MTA wishes to do. I am still waiting for somebody to explain why the D should not stop at DeKalb when the B is not running. To this point, nobody has.
wayne
: ( LOFL....
: ) Elias
And what about weekends???
From the looks of this schedule, the D will skip Dekalb Saturdays and Sundays, except nights... Am I right?
If that's true, oh my, the people of Chinatown will have a field day with it!
I suspect the outcry from the politicians (about no stops at Dekalb weekend days) won't happen till the service actually starts.
I would predict this will change in the next pick. There is no major constituency that demands the weekend D NOT stop at Dekalb, but there sure will be a fair number of annoyed people who want it to stop there whenever the B isn't running.
Is so, I think that sux. One should always. Can't ask people to walk from Atlantic Av to Pacific St late at night
The D has to run on the local track from Pacific to 36th St, this is because the R shuttle needs to turn on the express tracks north of 36th st. Since there are no switches from Dekalb bypass to 4th Ave local tracks until 36th st, the D must stop at Dekalb when the R shuttle is being relayed.
As for the B, I am really mad at NYCT for breaking a plan to have the B train run until 11 PM weekdays as they were supposed to. Since the last B train leaves 145th st at 2055 (8:55 PM), that means Brighton express service will end at the usual 9:30 to 10 PM end time (Currently the last Q diamond leaves 57/7 at 2124.)
"Supposed to" according to whom? Were promises made at the public hearing? Did any SubTalker receive a letter from NYCT saying B service would run until 11? Is there a draft copy of the timetable, showing service until 11, floating around somewhere?
David
The reason given by NYCT, and I have it in my correspondence directly with them, to combine the current B service with the current Brighton Express service, was to marry two weekday-only services and therefore result in an easier-to-understand service plan.
By comparing the current timetable with that data posted by Alex L., it can be seen that the service designated "B" will be cut by more than an hour in the evening come February 23, that is, 6 or 7 B trains are being eliminated. Of course, all through this hour or so, the D will be bypassing Dekalb.
Seems to me that Newkirk Plaza David, JeffJaguar and others have a valid gripe. And that's fine to voice on SubTalk but should be backed up with complaints to NYCT.
Also, they might use the 15 minute rush hour schedule, however that might come a little later.
The "dress rehearsal" officially begins tommorrow on the 4th. However the weather calls for rain.
:)
Actually, up close and personal, the cars have very nice seating. The seats are similar to the seats on the MCI Cruiser buses, instead of the usual hard seats found on most other LRV's.
Why are they yellow and blue? I assume they are compatible with the NCS and HBLR if they ever had to transfer cars for some reason.
Admiral Wilson Blvd
Federal Street
Federal Street
Cooper River
Cooper River bridge
River Road
I went home for a heavier coat and got to 11th Street in time for the next train, since as Mark bigcat mentioned last night, they're 5 minutes apart in Camden with a 25 minute hiatus.
SB on 11th St bridge
NB approaching 11th St bridge
NB on 11th St bridge
Then a quick trip to the State Street bridge; quick in case they were running 15 minute headways. They were not. I had to wait 15 minutes for the next train.
Walking up the bridge, I took a couple shots of the power lined up in Conrail Shared Assets Pavonia Yard.
Power at Pavonia Yard, Camden
from State Street bridge
SB from State St bridge
NB from State St bridge
By then (3:30) it was too dark for photography.
Congrats on the new cam! The Canon cameras do an awesome job.
The pics you displayed back up that claim.
Tip: Turn off the flash!
Good example of why you don't use flash.
The white balance seems a bit off, but as you get familiar and learn how to use the camera's manual mode, you will only improve.
The white balance in that photo is a bit to the yellow side, which indicates to me that you took the shot in the daylight white balance. Underground I go with the florescent setting. All of this can be fixed in photoshop easily though, so it's not that big of a problem.
See...
Vs.
It took more than 15 minutes to download your 12 pictures. I lost track but I think you must have posted more than 4000K
Could you please mention in your subject line when you post these monster posts. That way people in my situation won't even try to bring your message up.
Incidently, your pictures were very good when I finally got to see them.
Sorry! Forgot that part...
BTW you know, 56K modems are like free in the dumpster behind CompUSA?
And I absolutely know it’s frustrating! I normally have broadband access, either at home (cable modem) or at work (multiple T3s), but I was in State College PA for the holidays and had to deal with dial-up at 26Kbps and that was a local call to Penn State! Horrible!
If you plan to use the Internet for more than about 15mins per day, see if you can find some sort of broadband: DSL/Cable/ISDN! Save yourself frustration time!
DSL is apparently not available due to my rural location.
Cable hookup is available if I agree to subscribe to basic TV service as well, but the monthly charge for all of it is out of my reach.
My neighbor is exploring the possibility of a satellite dish connection but that sounds even more expensive.
It boils down to the fact that faster internet is out of my price range at the present time.
Yes, before our local telephone cooperative got dial-up modems, we could not use any modem at all (without incurring long distance charges).
When they became an ISP, we could connect. As you have said a 56KB modem is useless if you ISP is using a 28KB modem. Our ISP has several 56KB modems (read 46KB on a *good* day) but you may get a 28KB modem on any particular dial-in. With (at that time) 14 computers using that one dial-up connection things could get slow, but it was all of the dissconnects that was the real issue.
Today we have DSL... you have to be within three miles of the (telco) switch. We are : ) We switched over as soon as it became available. It does cost us $90./month... but that is a business account, with a static IP number. (It does provide one of our telephone lines) Even so, we do not get *cheap* rates on DSL out here, because the telco has to spread the costs over a small population base. Our telco does offer satelite coneections for places that cannot reach DSL. The Cable Company does not offer internet connection.
Our connection to our mail server is at 100MB. But the mail server is on *our* network. but my users do not see how long it takes to transmit large messages off site. All they see is ZAP... and their big photos are gone.
Yes, it took me a while to down load that many photos.
Just make HREF links for large batches of photos instead of IMG SRC links.
Bottom Line... NICE PHOTOS..
Elias
They are offering high speed internet hookup, using a new dish. Installation costs $600.00 plus a $60.00 a month usage charge.
Reliability is the same as Satellite dish TV.
A technician advised me that this is still not as good as DSL or cable TV hookup.
Also, I don't know how susceptible to weather DirecWAY is, but rain fade for satellite TV is greatly exaggerated by the cable TV industry.
I have had satellite TV for a number of years, and the fade is damn annoying when it occurs.
The freezeframe drops out to a black screen and the message "Searching for signal" This can last for several seconds to several minutes.
On June 19th 1996 this occured several minutes before the rain even started. We got 11 inches of rain in the matter of a few hours. We lost signal for most of the evening. I'm really not sure how long we were down because I was busy pumping water out of my basement to save my model railroad from drowning.
Our normal signal strength is between 93 & 96.
But situations like that are usually VERY rare ...
You don't need to have Cable TV to have a cable mbodem. There is a discount for both, but you can have just the one.
Sure. I'm using a Gateway 2000 Vivitron17 monitor that somone had tossed out and left on the curb in front of their house and it works like a charm. I've found good cd drives, keyboards, modems, switches, mice, video game controllers, basically all the parts of a computer. A tech savvy individual could easily equip themselves with an entire system if they don't mind doing the requisite dumpster diving. I've found some of the best stuff behind those suburban industrial park "computer consultant" organizations. Those guys run through a lot of gear.
Even software. I once found what must have been a resellers promotion of a full working copy (with five legit licenses) of Windows NT 4.0 behind one of those places. Along with other o.s. and application software, like MS Office and older versions of many apps. Not saying it's gotten as ubiquitious as pens have (i.e.; you need a pen just look on the ground, odds are there'll be one nearby), but it's getting there.
But they do beat the "Fog-O-Vision" that was present on his old Mustek (or should we say Mistek) camera. ;-)
As for the sound recorder I use, it isn't working 100% anymore. May consider a change in equipment once I have the necessary $. For now, I'll peacefully coexist with it.
Check out this one
Bombardier was right when he praised the good photo ops to be had at Junction Boulevard. Click on the picture to see what I got (photos 152~154). Too bad the express wasn't running (it was December 31).
And this one is nice too. It has to be one of my favorite shots so far with it (taken at 69th Street).
Now you need to read the manual (which if it’s anything like my S50’s is about ½" thick!) The secret here is to learn the best balance of “ISO Rating”—how sensitive the camera is to light: more sensitive however means more noise as the CCD is pushed to its limits—and shutter speed, where slower means more camera shake (photo 3 is a nasty example).
I would think about getting a monopod, which is a single leg, with a camera attachment screw. It will give you the bracing while still remaining within the rules. I have seen Koi holding a monopod—it makes a good walking staff if you get tired!
I have always interpreted that to mean that you can’t build an elaborate setup. Tripods are a hassle because they take up enough space for three people, which is I’m sure part of the spirit of the ban.
Monopods (monopodia?!) suffer none of those disadvantages, and mine (if I could ever find it!) can be collapsed into a tube about a foot long, yet it still provides the necessary bracing to help with camera shake up to about a tenth of a second.
More than half of this historic bridge was blown down by a tornado last July, and was the subject of many posts here.
The book is very interesting, but is printed on a rather poor quality paper so the pictures are not as sharp as they could be. The book sells for $10.00 plus postage.
Inquiries may be made to
The Kane Republican
200 North Fraley St.
Kane, PA 16735
Why do they flip-flop it?
That's what I wanna know! That was the whole point of the post...
...and they forget where they initially were so they just plop wherever...
..."What's this? Jamaica Ctr on the SOUTH instead of the NORTH? Meh. Close enough."
8-)
This is getting most intriguing...
Also, are there any fan trips being planned? This event would merit brining out the PCC (or borrowing one from Ashmont-Mattapan if the picture window car doesn't work) or the type 5 from their storage track.
-Robert King
As for fantrips, NO WAY!!!!!! What do you think this IS? New York????
There will probably be no event and as little media coverage as possible, except for some kind of historical perspective in one of the local papers.
Unlike the Orange Line, its such a small piece of the system and holds much less notoriety. Plus its just a temporary closure toward relocation. I doubt much of anyone will truly care about it except the inconvenienced people who need to reach Lechmere for bus connections or because they live in and around East Cambridge. My bet is the folks potentially making the most noise will be the Cambridge Courthouse.
So sorry, its every man/woman for himself/herself!
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Only on SubTalk do I see people use modern as a negative adjective.
And a fan trip with a borrowed Mattapan car or 3295 or the type 5 is out of the question? That's too bad. My family lived in Boston for a few months in late 84 or early 85 and I remember two car PCC trains running down the middle of the street, into the subway. I was pretty young then and I do remember riding the North Station streetcar elevated but I don't remember the orange line or the PCCs going on it. I don't know if either did at that time, or if they did, I don't remember it. But the two car PCCs going underground was something.
-Robert King
BTW, the now-being-demolished artery elevated highway offers a great photo location for pix of the North Station el. Also dont forget that North Station will be closed entirely for security reasons during the democratic convetion. Two ex-B&M Budd RDCs will be used as office space at North Station during that time, an interesting photo op.
-Robert King
However, upon arriving at 59th Street, CHARLIE announces "Transfer is available to the (6), (F), (N), and (R) trains." That's bizarre....
I was on an uptown 5 today, and it made that same announcement. It's the "weekend" 59th street announcement, despite it's obvious incorrectness.
Why not wait around for the 6 that said that it was a lex express?
The (6) trains were still signed as a "Lexington Ave Local". I would imagine the C/R was just interrupting the usual announcements with the corrected service information.
what the hell gives?
The latest software revision for the R142 does a nice job of silencing the AC (outside) while the train is in a station.
The HVAC is purposely kept loud so as to ruin the recordings of foamers that would throw their bags in the closing doors just so they can record the whole annoucement.
Peace,
ANDEE
(and i didn,t use the flash at all on those trips)
til next time
Either that, or buy some new fingers!
For cameras, my most recent have been a Canon (S50) and an Olympus (C4040, nice, but stolen :-(). Both have been good, but I would recommend Canon overall: slighly cheaper, and Compact Flash is a better medium than [so-called] Smart Media, which tops out at 128MB/card.
The A80 is newer than its equivalent 4MP cousin, the S45. The form factor is different. I found that the slim S50 (same form factor) fits nicely into a jacket pocket. However it has a custom battery and charger; it doesn’t use AA batteries. From then on, it’s a matter of budget, and pixels. If I wanted to buy a camera that I would take specifically on trips for photos, I would buy the Digital Rebel. A friend has one and it’s awesome!
*drools*
Not for the faint of heart!
Wipes up the drool…
While you're eyeing a Digital Rebel, I'm waiting for Nikon's D70, or for the D100's prices to come down. Although, I probably have to save for a while to afford one, I'll be forced to be content with my N55.
til next time
If so, WHY DON,T YOU KNOW HOW TO USE APOSTROPHE,S?!
Yes, I,am imitating you.
We THINK something,s wrong with you,r keyboard because you never use apostrophe,s. If the apostrophe key (it,s between the ; key and Enter) doe,s work, and you refuse to use it, go back to grade school and brush up on grammar.
til next time
Enjoy yourself.
til next time
til next time
Lens 8.2 mm f/3.0 (35mm equivalent; 38 mm)
5 elements in 4 groups (includes 3 elements with 4 aspheric surfaces)
Recording media CompactFlash Type I cards
File format Exif2.1 (JPEG, TIFF), Motion JPEG (AVI)
DCF-compliant
DPOF-compliant (Supported by printing functions)
No. of recorded pixels 1792 x 1200 (full size)
800 x 600 (half size)
Movie clips: 320 x 240
Autofocus system Video AF
Focusing range 0.6 m (approx.) - infinity, Macro: 0.3 - 0.6 m (approx.)
Exposure control Programmed AE
Exposure compensation ± 2Ev in 1/2 increments
Metering Center-weighted
Camera sensitivity Normal: ISO 85 equivalent, High: ISO 340 equivalent
Shutter speed 1/500 to 2 seconds
Continuous advance Approx. 1 frame per second
Self timer Approx. 10 seconds
Movie recording Max. 60 seconds
Digital zoom 1.4X or 2X
White-balance control Automatic, Manual (Preset: Daylight, Fluorescent, Tungsten)
Flash mode Autoflash, Fill-flash, Flash cancel, Autoflash with red-eye reduction, Fill-flash with red-eye reduction, Macro (The flash is cancelled)
LCD monitor 46 mm (1.8 inch) color, 77,000 pixels
Remote control RC-3 (option)
PC interface USB
Video output NTSC/PAL (selectable)
Power source Batteries:4AA (Alkaline or NiMH)
External:AC adapter (option)
Dimensions (WxHxD) 114 x 65 x 45 mm
4-1/2 x 2-9/16 x 1-3/4 inches
Weight Approx. 210 g
7-7/16 ounces (w/o batteries and recording media)
Standard accessories Hand Strap (HS-DG201), Camera Case (CS-DG201), USB Cable (USB-300), Video Cable (VC-200), CompactFlash Card (8MB), AA alkaline Batteries
CD-ROM for DiMAGE E201 / PhotoDeluxe Home Edition Windows / PhotoDeluxe Macintosh
I was thinking about the Kodak DX4530
Has 3x optical zoom and a ton of other features my cam doesn't. Goes for around $300. FEATURES:
Kodak EasyShare DX4530 Zoom Specifications
Image Resolution 5.0 megapixel (2588x1954 gross / 2580x1932 effective pixels)
Image Quality 5.0 MP - best (print, enlargement)
4.5 MP - best (3:2 aspect for 4" x 6" prints)
3.0 MP - better
1.2 MP - good (e-mail)
Zoom 10X total zoom
3X optical zoom, 8-24 mm (35 mm equivalent: 38-114 mm)
3.3X advanced digital zoom
Lens lens threads for 37 mm lens adapter
Focus/Auto-Focus multi-zone AF
Focus Distance 0.6 m (23.6 in.) to infinity
Display LCD - 1.8" (4.6 cm) indoor/outdoor display
Aperture wide - f/2.8-5.1; tele - f/4.8-8.7
Shutter Speed 1/2-1/1700 second; selectable long time exposure: 0.7-4 second
ISO Equivalent Automatic - (130-200); 140 (flash on)
White Balance auto
Flash Mode automatic, fill, red-eye, off
Flash Range wide - 0.6-3.4 m (2-11.2 ft.); tele - 0.6-2.0 m (2-6.6 ft.)
Viewfinder real image optical viewfinder
Self-Timer 10 seconds
Scene/Other Modes automatic, sport, night, landscape, close-up, movie
Macro/Close-Up Mode wide - 7-70 cm (2.8-27.6 in.); tele - 28-70 cm (11-27.6 in.)
Light Metering Method automatic: multi-pattern TTL-AE
Exposure Compensation +/- 2.0 EV with 0.5 EV step increments
Exposure Control programmed AE
Click To Capture 0.79 seconds (live view on)
Shot To Shot <2 seconds
Movie Mode continuous digital video with audio capture, audio playback on camera
Movie Resolution 320 x 240 pixels at 15 fps
Movie Length up to 60 minutes, limited by capacity of external memory card
Capture Mode capture always ready
Auto-Orientation auto picture rotation
Delete dedicated delete button
Review dedicated review button
Share dedicated Share button
Review Mode 2X or 4X magnify, slide show, multi-up, fast, scroll, protect, albums
Video Out NTSC, PAL (user-selectable)
Software KODAK EASYSHARE Software
Interface Dock Compatibility - KODAK EASYSHARE Camera Dock I, II and KODAK EASYSHARE Printer Dock 4000
Storage internal storage: 32 MB internal memory
external storage: MMC/SD card expansion slot
Power Options optional KODAK EASYSHARE Docks with Ni-MH rechargeable battery pack (in-camera charging); DC in jack on side of camera for 3V adapter; 2 AA lithium or Ni-MH batteries or 1 CRV3 lithium battery
Image File Format Still - JPEG/EXIF v2.1; Video - Quicktime
Interface USB 2.0 compatible, KODAK EASYSHARE Camera Dock I, II and KODAK EASYSHARE Printer Dock 4000 compatible
Lens Protection lens cap tethered to camera body
Tripod Mount 1/4 in. standard
Weight without batteries: 210 g / 7.4 oz.
Dimensions (WHD) 111 x 66 x 39 mm
4.4 x 2.6 x 1.5 in.
Man I want one!
I've even dropped it a few times on solid concrete, breaking the air vaccumm seal on the lens, yet it still takes lovely pics.
I wouldn't recommend anything besides Olympus C series and Canon S series.
BTW: Where does MARC squeeze in a HEP motor?
What's your point? A GP-39 has a smaller engine with a turbo and generates slightly more horsepower than the 38 with a larger engine with no turbo.
The GP39 seems to be much more closely related to the GP40, rather than the GP38.
The 38 is just a 40 without a turbo. The 39 is a 40 with a 12 cyl engine. They are equally related.
BTW: Where does MARC squeeze in a HEP motor?
At the end of the long hood, whre else? It has a very visable external exhaust thinggie.
Da Hui
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
If or when you do get a Digital Still Camera make sure it uses a rechageable battery. They last longer in most cases. I can get just about 3-4 hours of use on my camera usually on fantrips before I need to change the battery (And thats with the LCD Turned on all the time).
This Is What I Live For...
I believe the TV camera is on display in the Smithsonian.
When (approximate date?) was the E service returned to the
Chambers-WTC station of present?
Curious because having visited the WTC Path terminal recently,
it escaped my memory when the E was restored there.... and I left
an information gap with my guests.
Diversion, I know.
When did the E get routed back to the Chambers Terminal?
Got date?
www.subwayspot.com
Just head there and click on the link 'Sound Clips,' and you're there.
However, the most recent routes completed, the (2), (7), Manhattan-bound (E), (G), (L), and 42nd Street shuttle, are a LOT more detailed because this newer version of BVE can do a lot more.
The (A), which will be released within the next month or so (hopefully), will be the most detailed NYC route ever created.
The redbirds or the triplexs come back?
The second avenue subway or an extension to Staten Island be built?
Chuck
SAS or a line to SI would be much better than some old series of cars coming back.
To me the subway cars are a temporal wanderer of the subway systems, in the end it's the tracks that make the subway, not the cars. I have ridden a MOD trip, and I have to say, other than the non-revenue running I was not unduely impressed with the preformance of the Arnine cars (actually the R7A car was the one I rode the most that trip). I was more impressed with my ability to stick my head partially out the window and eyeball the impressive constructs of the IND subway connecting up to the Culver El on the local tracks. It was more impressive to look out the window and see the express tracks falling below us than to marvel at the age of the car. I'd gladly ride a fantrip with R44s or R62s, or even R142s or R143s if we'd get the opertunity to ride through the same non-revenue tracks, it was great to go down and relay on the Church Ave relay tracks. I also more recently did a PCC charter down here in philly, the car wasn't bad, I still prefer my K-cars, but the best part of the trip were the two trips through Elmwood Depot's yard with it's sleeping K-cars. Heck, my favorite part of the trip came after we all disembarked the PCC and were given a tour of the two new PCC IIs and K-cars sitting in an adjacent building.
That's not to say the old cars aren't impressive, they're good window-dressing, but without the tracks the trains would be pretty pointless, wouldn't they?
That's why I'd support the building of a new manhattan trunk line for the NYCTA subways instead of bringing back a long-defunct car class. The New York City subway does not exsist to serve our limited railfan tastes, it exsists to move millions of people about the New York metropolitan area, and that is what is truely amazing about transit, no matter where it is.
The only way I'm going on an R-44 fantrip is if it's the FAREWELL fantrip, and nobody complains if we remove all the longitudinal seats so my legs don't bang into them when I'm sitting on the transverse seats.
Of course if my all time favorite car to bring back are the 1-9's. That's why I love the MOD trips with them but wouldn't even pay the regular fare to ride the Redbird MOD trip!!
As far as the second question is concerned I couldn't care less if the SAS or subways to Staten Is are built. Staten Island is a huge garbage dump anyway and the only place worth going to there is Golden's Deli!!!
Atmosphere is great! and the sandwiches are not bad ;-)
But if I could bring back one car type with certain modernizations, I would choose the BMT Standards, but with 400 HP per instead of 280 HP, and air conditioning. They were one pleasant car to ride, and I liked the looks, too.
There will be another one sometime this year, better and faster than the last one
TRIPLEXES !!!!!
Tunnel to Staten Island.
wayne
:)
Example: on this board, only Pigs seems to have the kind of depth of interest in historical detail that was fairly common when I was his age. One well-known author (my age) remarked to me the same thing, saying that if he writes a book about some historical cars there will be some interest, but if he wrote a book about redbirds they would fly off the shelf.
Do you agree this is true?
If you agree, why do you think it is? I have just one guess, since the 50s and 60s were a time of severe contraction, you studied the past before it was all gone, but now transit is expanding, so you can look more to the future. Does that make sense?
I grew up riding subway cars that are now run as "Nostalgia Trains".
Ask away, Lincoln... they're a lot more on topic than most of what seems to have been coming up lately! I won't be the one answering since I don't have much knowledge in that area, but I'm sure there are others who will.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Do you agree this is true?
Maybe my historical knowledge or interest is not the same as you when you were young, but I *am* aware of the Main Line el, the proposed Chelsea extension, the PCC car, the PRR GG-1, and the once-extensive trolley car lines covering Boston's north side suburbs.
But then, maybe I am not a railfan, but a transit planner.
AEM7
But then, maybe I am not a railfan, but a transit planner.
It's possible to be both, and if the latter, studying history gives you a definitely leg-up in your work and advancement.
I personally know and know of a number of people who were history-interested young railfans who advanced quite high up, in (among others) CTA, NJT, HBLR, City of Philadelphia, and engineering consultancies.
One of the things that made the BMT great was the number of dynamic individuals, like William Gove, Timothy Williams and Bill Menden, who (even if they didn't start as railfans, or (even in the rail industry) took what we would not consider to be a hobby interest in their work.
Steve Loitsch
I feel the same way R142A. As for me. I'm mostly intrested in the evolution of subway cars, changes in subway maps, the history of the subways, and how the future of the subways is going to be as what R142A said up in his reply.
Today the MTA has pretty much obliterated its history (except for the Transit Museum of course)... The terms BMT, IRT, and IND are no longer in common useage - the original signs are virtually all gone - equipment is basically two types - stainless steel or redbirds [yeah I know there are differences but it all looks alike to me ;-)]
Paul, I agree with your conclusion for the most part - in the 70's the system was deteriorating so we looked to the past for the golden days - OTOH today it seems everyone is looking more to the future in light of the improvements the MTA has made in recent years..
I have found the same thing in teaching engineering. Within
just the past 10 years, students are much less interested in how
and why something works. They just want it to work. I would
attribute my viewpoint to aging, but it is confirmed by many others
in the field who have not aged (proportionally) nearly as much
as I in the past decade.
You may also be getting a distorted view of the young railfan
"community" by observing the posts on this board. A small group
of people who focus on inane drivel can easily drown out more
sophisticated conversation.
The colors change at each express station going outbound from Chambers Street or 2nd Avenue. The local stations take the color of the express station before it (going outbound). The colors are ordered by their position in the electromagnetic spectrum, except with orange and indigo omitted. It starts with purple, which has the lowest wavelength and highest frequency and goes in order of increasing wavelength/decreasing frequency to blue, green, yellow and finally red, before reverting to purple.
Exceptions:
34th Street-Herald Square was redone in 1990. It was yellow, is now red and breaks the pattern.
For whatever reason, 42nd and 47-50th and both red even though they're express.
53rd Street and Queens Boulevard continues the 6th Avenue pattern.
The Crosstown line is green because Hoyt-Schermerhorn is green.
Court Street is blue, the next color inbound from Hoyt's green and therefore also the same color as Jay Street.
On Fulton, the colors are in the incorrect order. Red (Utica, Ralph Rockaway) is followed by blue (Broadway Junction, Liberty, Van Siclen, Shepherd), then purple (Euclid).
Lexington has no tiles and therefore no color, but the columns are red.
5th Avenue is the correct red, even though it was renovated in the early 1980s with new tiles. The lower level used to have a different color (green).
Maybe to get the sequence in synch with 8th Av at 59th St?
You grew up in a time of great variety of subway rolling stock. We've got stainless steel.
You grew up with parents (maybe not your parents but their generation) who helped BUILD the subway.
You grew up in an era where the city and subway was a lot safer and therefore possibly more fun to enjoy and explore.
You grew up when there wasn't a WWW site about everything in the world that everyone who was even remotely curious could participate in.
You grew up when it wasn't "potential terrorism" to be interested in infrastructure and engineering behind the scenes.
You've grown up. You have the benefit of your years of experience and the wisdom to have figured out what was important to know about. The younger crowd still has to figure that out for themselves. What's important to you isn't going to be the same for everyone.
Also consider that professional/serious historians and researchers wouldn't be caught dead here.
-Dave
That doesn't say much for your, or Paul's, credentials or accomplishments. Fortunately, you both apparently have senses of humor.
Perhaps the avoidance is not as great as you might believe.
--Mark
You grew up in a time of great variety of subway rolling stock. We've got stainless steel.
You grew up with parents (maybe not your parents but their generation) who helped BUILD the subway.
You grew up in an era where the city and subway was a lot safer and therefore possibly more fun to enjoy and explore.
You grew up when there wasn't a WWW site about everything in the world that everyone who was even remotely curious could participate in.
You grew up when it wasn't "potential terrorism" to be interested in infrastructure and engineering behind the scenes.
You've grown up. You have the benefit of your years of experience and the wisdom to have figured out what was important to know about. The younger crowd still has to figure that out for themselves. What's important to you isn't going to be the same for everyone.
I agree with all your points except that last, since I'm talking about the interest of people who were in their teens and 20s while they were interested in history they'd never seen.
Also consider that professional/serious historians and researchers wouldn't be caught dead here.
Ummm ... ahhh ... ummm.
Excellent point. Thanks to the web, it's easy to develop an interest in just about any field, given the availability of information, but it's also very easy for the resulting interests to be superficial.
I think that is part of it. In the 50's and 60's it was thought that transit was sort of s "dying" thing, soon to be almost extinct. So many lines were abandoned and removed, both in the subway, and railroads in general. The people of that generation, did ride those lines, so they are somewhat familiar with them. The younger guys never got to even ride let's say the Myrtle El, or whatever, so it means something different, almost sort of a "fantasy" about what it was.
Also, it is easier to stay interested in the hobby now. When I was a teenager in the 80's, I rode the subway, but only talked about it when I was with a friend of a similar interest, or if I read a book. As mentioned by Dave, there was no internet to keep track of it. There was no fanfare in the railfan world when the R10's were last running, or when the last R30 redbird left the system. In my case, one day I rode one, and a few weeks later they just turned up missing, with no clue what happened to them. Silly me, when the R16's turned up missing, I just thought they were out getting their "green" paint scheme to look like the R10's. How was I to know they were getting cut up next to the L line, near Wilson Ave? I had to wait to read about that in a book many years later!
That's a very important point. Face it, to most of our non-railfan partners, friends and colleagues, "railfan" isn't a very cool thing to be. Busfan is even worse. I'm both, but I only talk about trains and buses with others who I know share the interest. Boards like this enable us to converse with hundreds of others around the world without embarrassment, and without age barriers too.
I found a copy of that in the stacks of my university library (yes - in the UK - bizarre) today. The circulator on 34th, 42nd, 48th and 57th Sts looks quite complex and fun.
I've summarized that in the section "The "Program For Action" 5 Years Later" in my article The New York City Transit Authority in the 1970s
.
--Mark
Yep - haven't managed to read it yet though. All sorts of random things seem to be in the stacks - I'm having several field days!!!
I've summarized that in the section "The "Program For Action" 5 Years Later" in my article The New York City Transit Authority in the 1970s
Thanks! Great article - a couple of questions:
A midtown distribution system along 57th, 48th, 42nd and 33rd Sts., using some kind of guided systems technology to link terminals, offices and other travel points. One guided system under consideration was the same proposed as a replacement for the 42nd Street shuttle back in the 1950s.
What was the system proposed in the 50s?
Extension of the IRT #5 Dyre Ave line to Co-op City
How would this have worked? Wouldn't extending the 6 be easier?
What was the [midtown distribution system] proposed in the 50s?
It was going to replace the Times Square / Grand Central Shuttle.
In 1954, Sidney H. Bingham, then chairman of the Board of Transportation, proposed a conveyor belt system to transport a dozen people at a time in small cars continuously moving between the two stations. A contract of $3.8 million was awarded in Novemberof that same year, but was cancelled less than a year later because it was believed to be too expensive.
Extension of the IRT #5 Dyre Ave line to Co-op City .. How would this have worked? Wouldn't extending the 6 be easier?
I don't know what the plan for this was, and I am not certain if the 5 year assessment mentioned it either.
--Mark
By Feb 15th, a missed SEPTA connections can be partially overcome by the River Line and PATCO. Slower, but better than waiting an hour for SEPTA.
The constrcution costs were about $25M/mile, which is quite a bargain. HBLRT cost as much as a subway per mile.
It's much more than that. The Courier-Post ("South Jersey's newspaper") has been carrying on a vendetta against the line from the outset. That's where Jersey Mike got his term "Doggle", from a headline and many one-sided articles in the Courier decrying the billion dollar boondoggle.
But without "Doggle" there's no name now. River Line is unacceptable.
Um, excuse me, but if the hind end of eastbound NJT trains gets filled up at Trenton and Princeton Junction, where do you propose the 8 billion morons at New Brunswick go?? The station building is at the **WEST END** of the platform, and nobody wants to move to the east end of the platform, even after they purchase their tickets. Also, once they get on the train, most refuse to walk forward where there might be more room and more seats.
I don't know how the east end gets it worse when New Brunswick, Metuchen, and Elizabeth are heavy "west end" stations.
>>New Brunswick people don't need empty cars to board.<<
I agree that they don't deserve "special treatment", but it alleviates a lot of chaos that is caused by the scenario described in the earlier post.
>>Forcing late SEPTA passengers to walk forward at Trenton also delays departures.<<
Agreed. Unfortunately, there's no physical way to get people to enter the back of a train and force them to move forward inside the train. ;-)
Well they do, I know because I get off the RVL and usually go to the west end for less congestion, especially the last 2 cars of a connecting Trenton train.
I assume a lot of the SEPTA people get off before Newark, so loading them on the west end would be fine and the same seats would be filled once again as the heavy west-end platforming stations come along.
I think this has to do with poor dispatching at Trent-town. When the Morrisville yard open the NJT trains won't need to platform at track 1 anyway and will stop accross the platform from the SEPTA on 4 and then run into the Yard at MORRIS.
Also, when making a connection in Trenton to an NJT train, if you miss the connection, it is not in part of bad NJT operations. Prior to the departure from Trenton, the Conductor must recieve permission from the dispatcher to proceed east. If a connecting SEPTA is only 5 minutes late, the dispatcher will 98% of the time make the NJT train wait, especially if the next train is 90 minutes away. (By the way....what time was it that you had to wait 90 minutes for the next train?
"The positioning of trains at PJ station which disfavors the less crowded rear cars." PJ is a 10 car platform, why does everyone stand at the front? Why can't they walk back?
"Crew refusing to open the rear cars until New Brunswick."
The reason the rear cars won't open until New Brunswick is because there is usually more than enough room in one of the forward cars and at New Brunswick, damn near EVERYONE stands at the rear of the platform. Therefore instead of overcrowding the forward cars, they open the rear cars. It's a system, for example- head 4 cars out of Trenton, open 1 more at New Brunswick, maybe 1 more at Metropark and another at Newark Penn.
Have you ever noticed at New York when a train is boarding from track 1 or 2 and there is a 10 car train that the 1st 2 or 3 cars are closed from the outside and the last 2 or 3 rear cars are too. The reason for this is because when the passengers come down the steps, they look for the first open door and the cram it. The result of that is the very front of the train is very crowded, the middle is half empty and the rear of the train is very crowded. So if everyone boards from the middle, they usually evenly disperse throughout the train. Is it inconvenient to the passenger, yes. But it relieves the extra burden from the Conductor and Brakeman who have the most work to do (beside the engineer), and gives gives it to the Ticket Collectors.
"Dilly-dallying at stations like NWK Penn Station and EWR"
How do you know they are dilly-dallying. I have never worked a train where we dilly-dallied at NWK. If a train arrives at NWK early, it MUST wait until leaving time or the crew will have to answer to trainmasters as to why the left early. If there is a stop signal, you must wait until you get a more favorable signal. Also, those are major stations, alot of people get on and off there. It will not take 25 seconds do discharge and board passengers there, especially at EWR where passengers have luggage, wait till the last minute to walk to the door because they are not familiar with the system and (going east) because everybody waits at the front end of the platform.
Because the waiting room is at the front and the back end of the platform doesn’t have any covered shelter!
“Crew refusing to open the rear cars until New Brunswick.” The reason the rear cars won’t open until New Brunswick is because there is usually more than enough room in one of the forward cars and at New Brunswick, damn near EVERYONE stands at the rear of the platform.
Because the waiting room is at the back and the front of the platform doesn’t have any covered shelter!
Unsurprisingly, this phenomenon increases during winter months!
Seriously, I would like to see (at both stations), the overhead extended to the platform edge (and more, if clearance issues can be worked out) and the back fences (just wire nets) converted to something solid, so there’s wind and rain shelter even when the waiting room is closed.
BTW, I tried to email you a zip file from Sat but it was rejected as too big. TS
Tracks 1 & 2: Eastbound high
Tracks 4 & 5: Westbound high
Tracks 6, 7, 8: 7 is definitely a bypass track... 6 and 8.. one's the other bypass, the other is the platformless storage track next to Track 5
Track 3: Low level, next to Track 1, stub ends west and south of the station.
And, as far as I know, Track 3 is RARELY used for anything other than storage; passengers are forbidden to wait on the low level platform. Yet, there exists a sign directing passengers to it from the waiting area.
Is Morrisville Yard NJT only? I see no reason they couldn't service SEPTA equipment here, especially since R7 trains don't have teir own yard, unlike the R5, which has two...
The Railroad track designations from railroad north to railroad south are:
#7: SEPTA Station Track
#5 & #4: Westbound High
#3 & #2: Runthrough Tracks
#1 & "South High": Eastbound Platform
"North Low": Low level platform.
http://www.blockstation.net/AMTK-Phila-Div/Section-A/A-7.html
So, in a nutshell, your opinion is more than just a little warped, and might even be a waste of bandwidth...
Based on public meetings a few years back, people in Astoria who show up for them want the Astoria line eliminated altogether.
At the meetings, did the people who showed up have a credible alternative?!
Lets not go there again ;-)
...disclaimer...joke....
Da Hui
I'm surprised he hasn't complained that Queens Blvd is "over-served" because four lines run through it.
N/W Broadway Line
N/W Broadway Line
This is exactly the sort of comment that will get you flamed (and rightly so!)
If you make a comment like that, be prepared to back it up with real statistics, personal observations over a period of time—something very concrete.
So, having made the comment, back it up!
My experience, which was from 1983 to 1987, when I lived a couple of blocks away from the Broadway station, was that it was standing room only in rush hour. If I wanted a seat, I had to back track to Ditmars.
Out of rush hour, we had (at different times) the R for Rarely and the N for Never.
That said, my impression is that Astoria ridership has been creeping up in recent years, to the point that one service alone is cutting things close.
David
N/W Broadway
In this case.. it is the number of services.. services translates to more trains..
N/W Bwy
Maybe... or maybe not... what I know about the "G" it is pretty reliable. Always on schedule.. however, I can't say that about the N. Also, you meantioned the "M" I will take the "M" over the "N" any day! Because at least it comes, as slow as it is when traveling.
"The 6 is only one service, but probably provides the same or more trains than N with the W."
It has never been my experience with this line... The "6" can be unpredictable... often times it is delayed.. FOR WHAT EVER REASON.. and can be extremely crowded..
Besides, if it wasn't for the "W" line, I would have moved out of the area.. My biggest complaint was that the "N" never hardly came.. and when it did.. it was extremely crowded.. It still hardly ever comes.. but at least I have an alternative..
N/W Broadway Lines
No it doesn't.
In rush hour:
G = 8 tph
J = 6
M = 7
Z = 6
Total = 27 tph
6 train = about 21 tph
On middays and Saturdays:
G = 6
M = 6
J = 6
6 train = 12 tph
See, everyone benefits!
It's cutting worse then close... But with the new service.. it is the way transportation suppose to be... COMFORTABLE & RELIABLE...
N/W Broadway
Where - in your dreams??
Regards,
Jimmy
When the "W" was express.. I actually liked it.. but your right, it wasn't practical.
N/W Broadway
Still, allowing trains to use that stretch of center track in peak service is the least expensive way to implement SOME type of service enhancement to the Astoria area. All the requisite parts are already in place, no new construction needed. Not that Astoria is lacking in population density, mind you, but, this being Greater New York and all, we should expect to see regions "naturally" experience jumps in pop. density, via larger residential buildings clustering around optimal transit access points.
Such as has occurred in Forest Hills and Kew Gardens.
So there is reason to suspect that if the Astoria line had at least peak hour express service as its normal operating philosophy we would see these types of buidings being erected. It's not all that great of a distance between Astoria Blvd. and Q.P., true (about equal to from 100th Street to 59th Street in Manhattan), but I do think it would be a nice selling point for developers. A three stop ride into East Midtown.
Further, maybe some type of tie-in (and new parking garages) to drivers stuck on the G.C.P nearing the line, considering bailing and jumping on the train could be contemplated. In that case, the express stop at Astoria Blvd. could absorb large numbers of passengers without crowding out all the riders down the line.
That's hardly a service enhancement.
Expresses are great when the busy stations are at the end of the line, but that doesn't describe the Astoria line.
OTOH, has anyone ever considered REVERSE-PEAK express service? Most of the reverse-peak travelers are airport passengers headed to/from Astoria Boulevard for connection with the M60 bus to LaGuardia. Reverse-peak trains pick up (or drop off) their entire load at Astoria Blvd.
N/W Broadway Line
- or -
Stifle!
Every morning this past week, I've heard the same station announcement somewhere along the West Side: "Ladies and gentlemen, due to necessary reroutes, some 5 trains are running on the 2 line, making 2 line stops between 149th Street-Grand Concourse and Nevins Street."
I wonder if the East Siders are getting the analogue.
And didn't you tell me the 6 is the busiest A division line in the system?
Sometimes, sometimes not.
Try getting onto a southbound 6 at 77th at 8:30 AM.
And a northbound 6 can be pretty packed from 42nd to 68th in the late morning rush with all the students headed for Hunter.
Astoria line ridership (millions, 2002) (N, W)
Ditmars Blvd 4.8
Astoria Blvd 3.0
30 Ave 3.9
Broadway 3.7
36 Ave 2.1
39 Ave 0.5
Total Astoria line (N, W) with 6 stations has 18.0 million riders.
Some comparisons:
Sea Beach line (N) with 8 stations has 8.9 million riders.
West End line (M, W) with 11 stations has 13.0 million riders.
Flushing line (7) with 16 stations has 70.6 million riders.
Concourse line (B, D) with 10 stations has 19.9 million riders.
Transfer stations are not included in the above comparisons, because one cannot tell how to apportion them between lines.
Based on these numbers you could probably "prove" almost anything, but I wouldn't call the Astoria ridership "immense".
"Concourse line (B, D) with 10 stations has 19.9 million riders."
It's amazing that the Astoria line has almost as many riders as the Concourse line, with 4 fewer stations, and in a less dense neighborhood. I guess the fact that Concourse riders have the alternative of the 4 line has something to do with it.
So how do you explain the much higher ridership on the Flushing line? Same reasons only more so?
The Flushing line gets about 20 TPH peak. The Astoria line gets 12 TPH peak (6 N trains and 6 W trains).
Yet the Flushing line has 70 million riders compared with the Astoria line's 18 million riders. So the total for Flushing stops is nearly four times the total for Astoria stops.
When those trains cross the East River the situation has changed and the difference is not nearly so great.
The NYMTC cordon counts for 2000 show that the Flushing line (Steinway tunnel) had 220,000 daily riders and the 60th Street tunnel had 250,000 daily riders. If Astoria trains carry 60% of passengers through the 60th St tunnel (12 trains out of 20), that makes 150,000 Astoria and 220,000 Flushing, so Flushing carries about 1.5 times Astoria when crossing the cordon (the East River).
How does the big difference in ridership in the outer areas change into a much smaller difference when crossing the East River?
My guess is that a lot of riders transfer from the Flushing line to the E and F expresses at Roosevelt Av–Jackson Heights.
No, and I suppose that means that I cannot get access to subway TPH?
Trains per day are shown on the hub-bound site, but I am also interested in trains per hour, especially in the peak hours.
Many people here have the full timetables but I am specifically barred from giving it out to non NYCT employees.
Thanks anyway. I can always guess the TPH and hope that someone in the know will correct them, as happened in this thread.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
SAS will need both lines. Astoria will do with the W.
I honestly don't live in Astoria, but I usually railfan the 7 and N. And I can honestly say this is something that had to be pulled out of your anus.
early 1970's: The chairman of the Physics Dept announced at a faculty meeting that he was a member of the John Birch Society. There was no reaction. Most people thought he belonged to the KKK.
Unrelated to Rutgers-Camden, the only illegal anti-war activity done by the Camden antiwar movement was planned and directed by the FBI infiltrator. When asked about his role at the trial of the others, he stated that were it not for him, the group wouldn't have done anything.
The latest additions to the Accessible Sations guide is 14th St./8th Aveune on the A, C, E, and L lines, 72nd Street on the 1, 2, 3 and 9 lines, Prospect Park on the Q and Franklin Shuttle, Flushing Avenue on the J and M lines(hope that answered your question Newkirk Plaza David), and the one that caught my eye was this:
(D) - Coney Island/Stillwell Avenue(Accessibility closed due to elevator rehab untill May 2004)
World Trade Center is listed once again as a Path Station.
Airtrain is listed which below it, it says Proposed Opening by year-end 2003(shuttle bus untill then)
The last change I saw is a symbol by the route indicating there is Police present in the station.
By which route? Do you mean every station that has police present?
Bronx:
01. 161st Street-Yankee Stadium - B, D, and 4 Lines
02. E 180th Street - 2 and 5 Lines
Manhattan:
01. 145th Street - A, B, C and D Lines
02. 59th Atreet-Columbus Circle - 1, 9, A, B, C, and D Lines
03. 14th Street Union Square - 4, 5, 6, L, N, Q, R and W Lines
04. Canal Street - A, C, and E Lines
Brooklyn:
01. Broadway Junction(Eastern Parkway) - J, L, and Z Lines
02. Broadway Junction(East New York) - A and C Lines
03. Franklin Avenue - 2, 3, 4, and 5 Lines
04. Hoyt-Schermerhorn Sts. - A, C, and G Lines
05. Neptune Avenue(F)
Queens:
01.Rockaway Park-Beach 116th Street - and Rockaway Park Shuttle
Notably absent from the above list is Van-Wyck Blvd on the F line (it should be there), and Franklin Ave/IRT was relocated to a nearby building at street level in 1999 when the pair of north stairs were converted to the free transfer to the shuttle platforms currently in use today.
Very old list that NYCT should know better
Hope 2004 is a good year for you.
And the new tech trains on the L were not sent to the Q just because of that.
Besides, I'd like to hear your alternative to their idea.
South of Brighton Beach to Ocean Parkway - for the last few weekends there have been trains there. However, this past weekend two switches were removed, forcing those trains to also lay-up north of Brighton.
I can't find a straight-forward high school-type explanation of why imaginary numbers are used for reactance. Is the value of the reactance imaginary, or something like that?
For a real resistance, Ohm's law relates the voltage and the current flowing through a resistors as:
i = V/R
We'd like to make an analogous expression for an arbitrary impedance (i.e. caps and inductors as well as resistances). Remember that reactance, X, is the analog of resistance. Therefore, we'd like to write:
i = V/X
We note that when you impress a sinusoidal AC voltage on a cap, the current flow through the cap is 90 degrees out of phase with the impressed voltage. Since:
exp(i*w*t) = cos(w*t) + i*sin(w*t)
If we impose a voltage of the form:
V(t) = V*exp(i*w*t) = V*[cos(w*t) + i*sin(w*t)]
on the reactance, the current running through the device will be
i(t) = (V/X)*exp(i*w*t)
= (V/X)*[cos(w*t + 90 deg) + i*sin(w*t + 90 deg)]
= (V/X)*[sin(w*t) - i*cos(w*t) ]
= (V/X)*(-i)*[cos(w*t) + i*sin(w*t)]
= (V/X)*(-i)*exp(i*w*t)
= (V/(iX)) * exp(i*w*t)
Therefore, by convention a reactance is considered to be an imaginary impedance.
The important point is than when you use complex math to represent sinusoidal signals, multiplying by i is the same as having a 90 degree phase shift in the signal.
Good luck with the math fair!
SDB.
LOL
Elias
Based on as much of what I've read and you've said that I can understand, would these statements be oversimplified but correct to use before a high-school math class:
"Reactance is a a measurement of the ability of an electronic component, such as a capacitor, to temporarily store current in an AC circuit."
"Imaginary numbers are used to describe reactance because the peak amount of electricity stored does not occur at the same time as the peak voltage, or amount of current, is applied."
After you're done rolling on the floor in laughter, I hope you'll let me know if I'm even slightly on the righttrack. :)
You see, my daughter's teacher (who said she's the first in her classes to do imaginary numebrs for the fair) did not require that she come up with a real-world use for them, but my kid wanted to do it this way so she herself could understand it better.
Thanks so much for your help.
"Imaginary numbers are used to describe reactance because the peak amount of electricity stored does not occur at the same time as the peak voltage, or amount of current, is applied."
That's a perfectly fine explanation & it captures the essential features of what imaginary numbers are trying to express.
As for a real-world use of imaginary numbers, they are used all the time when dealing with oscillators of all types (electrical, mechanical, etc.) Since oscillators usually involve dealing with sinusoidal functions, the equation:
exp(i*phase) = cos(phase) + i*sin(phase)
is the most important one to remember.
I hope your daughter's teacher has a degree in physics or EE! :-)
SDB
My daughter is high up in her honors math class and would like to be a physicist. I don't know if that's in the cards or not, but its certainly been a learning adventure for me! :)
For instance, in attempting to tune a radio antenna to a transmitter, an antenna may have a base impedance of 50 ohms, while at the same time having a reactance (either + inductive or - capacitive). In order for a transmitter to properly tune into the antenna with maximum transfer of the RF (efficiency), the reactance must be tuned out. This is done by inserting a capacitor or inductor into the transmission circuit of the opposite reactance to cancel it out.
If our antenna has an impedance of 50 ohms and a capacitive reactance of 36 ohms (expressd as -j36), an inductor must be inserted with a reactance of +j36 to cancel out the capacitive reactance. Once this is done the transmitter will see a pure 50 ohm resistance (with a reactance of +/- j0) thus allowing for mamimum transfer of energy from the transmitter to the antenna.
http://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/0,,sid9_gci212333,00.html
I have a question. In the complex plane formed by resistance and inductance, I can draw a vector representing the combination of both. So does the magnitude of the vector signify anything?
Also, how do I calculate power-loss due to a passage through such a circuit? In DC, you can calculate the power loss using this equation: P = I(R^2). In AC, can you calculate the corresponding power loss using the equation P = I(Z^2) where Z = R + iX? (of course, X is frequency dependent). If this is correct, then I suppose the magnitude of the vector signifies "what the equivalent resistance would be if it were a DC circuit"?
R = Resistance
X = Reactance
Z = Impedance
P = Power
I = RMS Current
(RMS = root mean squared)
The mag of the vector gives the magnitude of the ratio |V|/|i|. The angle of the vector is the phase shift between V & i. A pure resistor will give 0 phase shift between V and i. A pure cap or inductor will give 90 degress phase shift between V and i. A complex impedance will give some arbitrary phase shift; the size of the shift is the same as the impedance's angle in the complex plane.
Also, how do I calculate power-loss due to a passage through such a circuit? In DC, you can calculate the power loss using this equation: P = I(R^2). In AC, can you calculate the corresponding power loss using the equation P = I(Z^2) where Z = R + iX? (of course, X is frequency dependent). If this is correct, then I suppose the magnitude of the vector signifies "what the equivalent resistance would be if it were a DC circuit"?
With AC the power dissipation is again given by iR^2. Pure reactances don't dissipate energy. The store it during one quarter of the sinusoidal cycle, and then give it back over the next quarter. The power loss in a complex impedance network is always given by just the real part of the impedance, i.e. iR^2. The imaginary part only induces phase shifts between V & i.
Happy geeking!
SDB
The abstract does not explain the jist of the paper well but my understanding of their thesis is that low-frequency AC (such as Pennsylvania's 25Hz at 11kV) and high-voltage DC (such as Metra's 1.5kV) has become much more competitive against the standard utility frequency of 60Hz at 25kV or 12.5kV due to the development of on-board inverters that allow sophisticated control systems to drive three-phase asynchronous motors from any type of electrical supply.
That argument is sound with respect to the on-board electronics, and you can certainly do much more with an IGBT circuit than with a camshaft resistance control. However, I was not entirely comfortable with the authors' reasoning w.r.t. why 25Hz 11kV is superior to 60Hz 12.5kV. My understanding of the explanation given is that even though the RMS voltage is similar (11kV v.s. 12.5kV), the 60Hz would require substations to be spaced much closer together than the 25Hz solution, "because of higher inductive reactance associated with the higher frequency" to achieve the same level of minimum voltage on the wires.
Given what you said:
With AC the power dissipation is again given by iR^2. Pure reactances don't dissipate energy. The power loss in a complex impedance network is always given by just the real part of the impedance, i.e. iR^2. The imaginary part only induces phase shifts between V & i.
Am I right to conclude that this line of reasoning is incorrect? Of course, there are other reasons to utilize the 25Hz solution versus the 60Hz solution. For example, the 25Hz solution allows the substation to draw a three-phase load (to power three equivalent power rectifiers) and then chop out a single-phase supply for the line, and this eliminates the "inductive load" and single-phase power draw problem associated with locomotives. However, if the substation spacing required for 25Hz is similar to that for 60Hz (and proportional only to the line voltage), then there is no advantage in choosing a 25Hz system over a 60Hz one other than sunk investment in the Pennsy main line.
I can supply reprints of that paper, if any of you are interested in seeing whether I misunderstood the authors' reasoning. It is possible that I have.
AEM7
Not really. The trouble with 1.5KV Dc is that the POWER available is simply not very high. As far as 25hz AC, it's a dead system, period. the ONLY reaon why the even lower frequency 16hz system survives in Europe is because so much generating capaciuty exists at that frequency.
However, I was not entirely comfortable with the authors' reasoning w.r.t. why 25Hz 11kV is superior to 60Hz 12.5kV. My understanding of the explanation given is that even though the RMS voltage is similar (11kV v.s. 12.5kV), the 60Hz would require substations to be spaced much closer together than the 25Hz solution, "because of higher inductive reactance associated with the higher frequency" to achieve the same level of minimum voltage on the wires.
IMHO, it's bullshit. if it REALLY were significant, you can bet that utilities in the US would never have gone to 60hz, and the few 50hz systemes in the Us never would have converted upward.
Am I right to conclude that this line of reasoning is incorrect? Of course, there are other reasons to utilize the 25Hz solution versus the 60Hz solution. For example, the 25Hz solution allows the substation to draw a three-phase load (to power three equivalent power rectifiers) and then chop out a single-phase supply for the line, and this eliminates the "inductive load" and single-phase power draw problem associated with locomotives.
Given that 'utility frequency' electrification has existed for decades, I'm not totally convinced that even this is an issue. IIRC, there ARE ways of transferring power between phases, and that imbalances of a few MW aren't a huge issue. And, modern electrics are much nicer to electric grids than even AEM-7s are.
However, if the substation spacing required for 25Hz is similar to that for 60Hz (and proportional only to the line voltage), then there is no advantage in choosing a 25Hz system over a 60Hz one other than sunk investment in the Pennsy main line.
I've yet to see anything that says that it wouldn't be. IMHO, much of the '25hz is better' talk comes from trying to come up with excuses as to why the ass backward system on the NEC should be retained. Trying to do a casual before/after comparison is hopeless, because it would make plenty of sense to uprate substations if you're replacing them anyway.
And, we're assuming the entire 25hz electric system is single phase, from generator to locomotive. I find this hard to believe, as the New Haven used 3 phase transmission, and 3 phase transmission in general was dominant after the turn of the century, or so. Unless it's the bizzare 2 phase system that still exists in Philly for 60hz power.
I can supply reprints of that paper, if any of you are interested in seeing whether I misunderstood the authors' reasoning. It is possible that I have.
Beam it over. But, I'd take ANYTHING from anyone in Chicago re: mainline electrification with a big grain of salt, since there's ZERO experience with it over there. AFAIK, the Metro-North and NJT conversions were both quite sucessful, and MK recomended 60hz for Caltrain years ago. I'm also not aware of any new line construction that's NOT comercial frequency, unless it's tied to an existing network (i.e, Germany, Switzerland). And anyway, 50/60hz electrification's been studied for a long long time. This argument has only recently come up.
From what I can gather from re-reading various corresspondences, it seems to me that if you are feeding an inductive load at 25Hz, you will get a better power factor than at 60Hz. Apparently this is only an issue if you're tying a single phase system directly into the grid, in which case you get assessed a penalty for having an inductive load. However if you making your own 25Hz juice (by using choppers that feed off the three phase grid), then no one gives a hoot what your power factor is.
What is the physical significance of the "power factor"? Since no energy is lost, why does any one care if i is out of phase with V? Specifically, why should a railroad care?
I've yet to see anything that says that [the substation spacing required for 25Hz] wouldn't be similar to that for 60Hz (and proportional only to the line voltage).
So how do we prove this? What you're saying is that there is no inherent advantage of 25Hz over 60Hz, despite the fact that reactance is higher at 60Hz. It's not that I don't believe you, but I am trying to comprehend why someone would make that claim (besides making a silly mistake).
AEM7
I'm also curious - what nobody's pointed out is that a frequency conversion isn't 100% efficient. It's probbably quite high with solid state conversion, but rather low with electro-mechanical means.
I suspect the merits of each system will be argued forever, but it's quite obvious the mainstream opinion is that the advantaged of comercial frequency power outweigh whatever disadvantages it has by a lot.
I also thought that one of the main reasons that 25Hz AC was used was that it was relatively easy to convert to DC in a rotary convertor, before the days of mercury arc rectifiers and solid state.
That might be true, but I think the serious reason is this: since power is I*V, if I and V are in phase then you get a simple power graph that is just a sin()^2 graph. When they are not completely in phase, it's like a sin()^2 graph shifted downwards. At some point I*V goes negative -- I am not sure what this means, but I suppose it means instead of the grid doing work on the locomotive, the locomotive is actually doing work on the grid, and in the opposite direction. I remember being told in college that the power just "disappears" -- it's like the angel's share, cancels out in opposing electromagnetic fields or something. But I don't quite understand it myself. If someone can explain that better, please do.
I built a spreadsheet that will help demonstrate that relationship.
Maybe I've just answered my own question, and that's why the power companies care (and thus railroads care) about not having an all-inductive load. But I'm not comfortable with the explanation that the energy just disappears...
On the other hand, if you load a three phase motor -- well I don't see how that would eliminate the problem. As long as the load is more inductive than it is capacitive, you'll get the power loss, and the only way to eliminate it is to match the motor with a capacitive load. With modern AC traction having variable frequency inputs, matching the motor with a capacitive load will be very, very complicated.
Can anyone else explain this to me?
I also thought that one of the main reasons that 25Hz AC was used was that it was relatively easy to convert to DC in a rotary convertor
That may have been the reason on some systems, but on the Pennsy the reason was because synchronous AC motors only worked at low frequency AC. That was the same reason 16.6667 Hz was chosen for the German system. Synchronous AC motors are series-wound motor that rely on the interaction between a stator that generated a variable magnetic field and a rotor that was also fed the same signal to function. (Series wound, as in rotor and stator are in series). The reason it wouldn't work at high frequency AC I think is reactance related. I think, since the motor is mostly an inductive load, the reactance would be too high at high frequencies for it to work. But since I don't really understand how a series-wound motor works, I can't say for sure. Anyone knows?
AEM7
Regarding DC/25cy/60cy purely from a transmission standpoint:
Using AC for transmission has two ill consequences. One is
"skin effect". An alternating current flowing through the wire
estabilishes a local magnetic field that forces the electrons
to flow along the outside of the conductor. This is equivalent
to reducing the cross sectional area of the conductor, i.e. using
a smaller gauge wire. Skin effect increases resistance (i.e.
purely real impedance) and gets worse with higher frequency.
The other effect is inductance, both the self-inductance of a
lone conductor and the mutual inductance of the three conductors
in the transmission line. Inductnace creates imaginary impedance,
therefore no power is consumed. However, this impedance does
result in a voltage (magnitude) drop along the line under load.
Low frequency AC was preferred because it was better suited to
low-RPM generators. It was also suitable for single-phase AC
traction, which did NOT use synchronous motors. These systems
(e.g. the early NH and PRR electric locomotives and MUs) used
motors that were very similar to series-wound DC traction motors.
There were some changes needed for the AC, such as compensating
windings and lamination of the iron to minimize eddy current losses.
They still had a commutator and relied on the commutation of
the _instantaneous_ polarity of field and armature currents.
Induction motors and synchronous motors were not widely used
in this country. Single-phase motors were not really practical
at 60 cy. Achieving decent spark-free commutation under
varying load conditions was too hard and iron losses (see below)
were too high.
Transformers for low-frequency AC need more iron and are heavier.
On the other hand, with increasing frequency, hysteresis and
eddy current losses increase in the transformer. Eddy currents
are circulating currents set up in the iron by the changing
magnetic field. They can be ameliorated by introducing non-conductive
lamination in the path of the eddy current. Hysteresis loss
of basically "magnetic friction"...any ferrous material will heat
up from the cycling of the magnetic field.
I don't buy that there would be any advantage to using 25cy
vs 60cy distribution now. One might as well go all the way
to high-voltage DC distribution.
I got one for you...it is not effected by utility grid blackouts.
Unless it's the bizzare 2 phase system that still exists in Philly for 60hz power.
Well, check out the catenary poles. In all cases the 138kV feeder lines are grouped in 2's, 4's or 8's.
AFAIK, the Metro-North and NJT conversions were both quite sucessful,
I know no clue why NJT converted their NJCL to 60Hz. All the maintainence burden would have been was some solid state inverter things. I mean now they can't run MU trains to Long Branch.
BTW, the GE had proposed 25kv ability in the Arrow I (Westinghouse got the order), and some Silverliner IVs had it. I believe all Silverliners had the taps for it - the proposed Arrow I system did (regardless of if the PRR got the changeover equipment or not), and they say it's the same as the Silverliner II system. GE's actual proposal was for 23,400V, not 25kv.
The SL IVs all had 60 capacity, some had tap changers for 25kv, too. The frequency change was simply a change in the firing logic, noteably the ramp generator's frequency had to be shifted from about 25hz (It had to be phase locked, so it was effectively line controlled), to about 60hz. I'm assuming the Silverliners used the same basic firing logic design as the E-60, here. Given how the designs have a remarkable amount in common, I wouldn't be surprised.
Ramp generator? Firing logic?
So it's not necessarily out of the bounds of high school math.
But the main issue is that reactance definitely isn't covered in high school physics, and usually not even in the first college physics course.
That is basically correct. It would be more correct to say
that a capacitor stores charge, or that it tends to resist
a change in voltage across it. Conversely, an inductor
stores current and tends to keep the current through it from
changing.
The reason why imaginary (complex) numbers are introduced is
it allows the analysis of linear AC circuits to be handled in
the same manner as linear DC circuits. Ohms law still applies,
except voltage, current and impedance all become complex numbers.
It is merely a mathematical trick.
There is nothing imaginary whatsoever about these effects. One
very real consequence of reactance is so-called "reactive power".
If one took an ideal alternator and hooked it directly to
the terminals of a capacitor, using ideal wires with no resistance,
then a perfectly real current would flow. At a line frequency of
60 cy, that current would be V*377*C, where C is the capacitor
value in farads. If V is 120 and C is 380 microfarads (a
common value for an air conditioner run capacitor) then
the draw on the alternator would be about 17 amps, if I did that
arithmetic in my head correctly.
This current is 90 degrees out of phase, leading ahead of the
impressed voltage. The reactive power is 17*120=2040 VAR,
but the real power is 0. In other words, if you were cranking
this alternator by hand, you would not feel any load. No real
power is being consumed. This is because whatever energy is put
in to the capacitor in one half of the sine wave cycle flows back
the other way in the other half.
Now, in the real world, wires have resistance. 17 amps is flowing
across a resistor (the wires), and therefore heat is being
dissipated. The resistor doesn't care about the relative phase
of the current vs the voltage at the alternator.
When electrical feeders are sized, reactive power has to be factored
in. That's why utilities charge big industrial customers a penalty
for heavily reactive loads.
I'm beginning to understand this a little on a primitive level. The challenge in this particular case was to bring this so far down in layman's terms that my daughter has a shot at being able to convey it to people even more clueless about EE than she and I are.
I vaguely recall that negative numbers were also considered "imaginery" when first used--i.e., in the real world you can't subtract three apples from two apples because you can't have a "negative apple" unless you consider the concept of owing someone an apple--i.e., debt.
Anyway, thanks for the enlightenment--it's really an interesting subject!
She is just scraping the surface. I remember doing 6th form mathematics and being amazed at the results that dropped out of studying complex number** theory: relationships between e, the base of natural logarithms, and p, just to mention one (details unfortunately have faded).
Perhaps your daughter will get hooked and even solve the Riemann Hypothesis, which is probably the most significant mathematical problem yet to be solved.
**Better term: an imaginary number is one whose real part is zero, complex numbers have both real and imaginary parts.
You mean this?
exp(i*pi) = -1
This is because
exp(i*pi) = cos(pi) + i*sin(pi)
And since cosine of 180 degrees is -1, and sine of 180 degrees is zero, you get "e to the power of i times pi" to be -1.
If you held a gun to my head I still could not explain why e(x) = cos(x) + i*sin(x).
Proving e(x) = cos(x) + i*sinx(x) is easy, you just look at the McLaurin expansions of them! (Now going back and deriving McLaurin might be tricky at this stage!!!)
Yeah, you'd have a heck of a time proving that, because it
isn't true! It is e(jx). I forgot the name of the theorem..
maybe DeMoivre's ?
She's already interested. I think advanced math is like railfanning, either you have a "natural" interest or you don't. ;-)
I'm trying to interest her in studying Latin and classical literature. Her generation is kind of "present-focused."
Perhaps your daughter will get hooked and even solve the Riemann Hypothesis, which is probably the most significant mathematical problem yet to be solved.
Maybe next week. This week she's working on the origin of matter. :=D
First of all, the rehabilitated Bredas were nowhere to be found. According to a T/O I asked, they weren't running unless they needed to do a put-in.
Also, I noticed T/O's using anything that they could to keep sunlight out of the cabs. In more than one case, I noticed the shades pulled on the cab door and the window behind the T/O (did not affect the railfan window), and then either a line color sign or an ad poster behind that. Interestingly enough, it appears the ad posters were scavenged, since in the cases where the ad poster was used, the advertisement holder nearest the cab was empty.
Speaking of the railfan window, I discovered the true joy of it today on the Orange Line near New Carrollton. I was instantly addicted to it, and got a seat near it. It also was so cute to see these two children kneeling on the rear-facing seat with their noses pressed against the glass (it was on a Breda). I found it best to sit in the first front-facing seat on a Breda for railfanning on Metro.
Regarding photographs, I got a bunch. I took Wayne Whitehorne's "Foggy Bottom Challenge" (my own term) and photographed Foggy Bottom with my Mavica. This came out of the What camera do you use use for rail/subway pics? thread, specifically this message. Here's the results:
I have a few other pictures, but that's the general gist of it. Contact me (my AIM name is SchuminWeb) if you want to see others.
I also got some interesting Metro views:
View through the tunnel on the Vienna/Franconia-Springfield side at Federal Triangle, showing the lower level of Metro Center in the distance.
This is the pylon for L'Enfant Plaza next to the escalator canopy. Note that the pylon is totally boarded up. This is also the only L'Enfant pylon to be like this.
View on the Vienna side of the Ballston-MU station, taken at an eight-second exposure. The camera was sitting next to me on a bench. Also, at Ballston, there was a Metro police officer there, and she was really on top of things, there. As I was arriving at Ballston, this one guy jumped the turnstile, and she was right on him. As I was returning, some (I'm guessing) 13-year-olds ran down the up escalator, and she was telling them, "Do you know that's a (next word unclear) offense?"
The end of the tracks at Addison Road. Took the picture to see what's going on regarding Largo. A woman at Addison Road, a Metro employee, gave me a bit of a hard time about that, but that was the only problem I had all day. Had an interesting conversation about the deer with the station manager. He was amazed because the deer seemed as if he knew where he was, as if "It contained the spirit of someone who just wanted one last ride."
Construction mess at National Airport. I'm disappointed that the new canopy will not match the old one, though. Also worth noting that a number of the pylons in the construction zone had the sheet metal removed, leaving only the frames standing.
And lastly...
I asked a train operator at Vienna if he would, and he agreed, and so here I am posing with the little-seen "WHITE" sign.
And I also finally met a personal goal, now finally having ridden all 103 miles of the Metro system at least once.
I also got some videos, as well as a number of other pictures, but they will have to wait until I get my Transit Center site running...
Ben F. Schumin :-)
This is about as good as I could do at Foggy Bottom, and the image was improved somewhat by the application of a contrast filter
wayne
Man, if only the station really WAS that bright...
Had you had a chance to see these station when in the first month after opening you would see how dirty they have gotten over the years. They were about 20 to 30% brighter then they are today. Most of it is the result of dirt accumulating on the light fixtures, and to a lesser extent dirt accumulating on the station vault reducing the reflection of the light from the concrete
John
Ben F. Schumin :-)
WMATA does power wash the station on some schedule. However WMATA doesn’t have an equivalent to the vacuum train used in New York. One of the reason the station have so much crud on them is because of the curd in the tunnels that has never been cleaned. The movement of the trains blows the dirt in tunnels into stations and vice versa.
The finish of the concrete that we see today is very different then what on would have seen right after the forms were striped after the concrete cured. All of the forms used for the concrete pours of the coffers in the station vaults were made of fiberglass with the exception of Smithsonian (D02) which was sheet steel. The slick finish of the fiberglass and sheet steel forms gave the concrete a slick finish with a shiny sheen, kind if like enamel paint finish on dry wall. This was the result of the pouring process that required the vibrating of the concrete as it was being poured to remove the air pocket from the concrete.
After the concrete was cured all of the concrete surfaces in the station had their sheen removed by what was called a six second sand blast treatment. The tunnels between the stations did not get sand blasted. This opened up the surface of the concrete giving it the rough surface we see today. This in my opinion in hind sight had a down side. The sand blasting that was done created a greater surface area for the dirt to accumulate on.
Some of the station have been "white washed" for lack of a better term, to make them better reflect light. I haven’t had a chance to inspect the these station in person to evaluate the difference between the "white washed" station and the station that are still in there original condition.
John
Ben F. Schumin :-)
I vaguely recall seeing this treatment applied to Capitol South (C05), Eastern Market (C06), and Potomac Avenue (C07) on the D Route Blue Orange lines on my last trip back in 2001. Their may have been the other that you mentioned. Farragut North (A02) on the A Route Red Line has also been similarly treated.
John
That picture that was shot at Ballston (K04) is one of the best pictures I have ever seen taken with a digital camera in the low light conditions on WMATA.
The end of the tracks at Addison Road. Took the picture to see what's going on regarding Largo.
Here are some pictures I took of the G Route Blue Line extension construction back on 12 06 2003.
John
Anyway, the Sunnyside towers were named from A to D. F was A, HAROLD was B, R was C and Q was D. By 1929 all the towers had been renamed with HAROLD being named H. With the 1930's and 40's PRR interlocking renaming scheme HAROLD took on its full name.
The Penn Station towers were A, KN, JO and C from day one and remain as interlocking names currently.
Hmm.
Someone else once explained that HAROLD, which I heard reported as HK, was named for a nearby street. I looked into it, and found that 39th Street (the easternmost viaduct over the tracks and yard) was Harold Avenue until Philadelphia came to Queens in 1915.
So does the 1930s and 1940s PRR naming scheme involve finding names of historical significance that begin with the right letter? Is it just coincidence that, as you say, it was called H after B and H is the first letter of HAROLD? How does HK find its way into the mix, and how did F, R, and Q escape another rededication?
The Penn Station towers were A, KN, JO and C from day one and remain as interlocking names currently.
I assume A and C are meaningless alphabetics, but is there any significance behind KN and JO?
I suppose that all of this is nearly moot for anything but historical purposes (which are still good ones) now that it's all under the PSCC umbrella. On that note, what call letters does the new tower in the station go by now? Just PSCC?
Mark
The original system was based on 2 alpha telegraph call codes. The codes were picked with respect to the tower's location and confusion with other codes a dispatcher might face in his duties. Some were fairly close (I think Holmesburg Junction was HB) while others were not (what became UNION tower in Rahway was DK). In the 30's and 40's with the advent of the block phone the PRR phazed in descriptive names for it's towers to aid in recognition. All the names we now know and love like ZOO, FAIR, DOCK, LINCOLN, came into service at this time. This came in conjunction with a general tower rebuilding programme on the NEC.
Is it just coincidence that, as you say, it was called H after B and H is the first letter of HAROLD?
Probably not.
How does HK find its way into the mix
I am not sure. By 1939 HAROLD was HAROLD. There might have been some sort of thing with the LIRR ownership of the tower in that time that resulted in the name of HK.
and how did F, R, and Q escape another rededication?
I believe the original names were changed due to confusion between the other A and C interlockings in Penn Station. Reasons for the letters chosen could include 1, they were available, 2, they were not confusable in morse or 3, some long forgotten 'system'. A possible reason they were not renamed along with the rest of the corridor towers is because they really don't have distinct locations and are in very close proximity to other towers. Because the towers are't distinctive by location, plain letters step in to provide the distinctiveness
I assume A and C are meaningless alphabetics, but is there any significance behind KN and JO?
Probably not.
I suppose that all of this is nearly moot for anything but historical purposes (which are still good ones) now that it's all under the PSCC umbrella. On that note, what call letters does the new tower in the station go by now? Just PSCC?
It's officially PSCC, but the interlockings retain their old names. You just call PSCC for service. In the timetable it is listed as something like F R-PSCC (remote to PSCC). PSCC controls BERGEN in NJ, A, KN, JO and C in Penn Station and F and HAROLD in Sunnyside. However, HAROLD tower is still operational as needed and in Sunnyside Yard both Q and R towers are still operational. R tower is not technically an interlocking, but a Switching Center. Interlocking rules still apply, but I think they are dodging some sort of FRA testing requirements. Q still has its 83 lever Model 14 electro-penumatic machine. R had its plant re-done some time ago so I am not sure if it has its old Model 14 or a newer NX pannel.
Somewhere near PSCC are the Amtrak Section A and Section B dispatchers. Sect. A handles the Empire connection, Hellgate Line and the NEC from between DOCK and BERGEN. Sect. B handles operations between UNION and DOCK. Section B is a "paper" dispatcher as his territory is operated by UNION and DOCK towers.
DOCK is a madhouse, especially since that airport station was put in. The staff includes a full time Train Director, Full time levers, two part time levers and a Telegrapher.
2. Expand skip stop to include some extra stops
3. Make the (1) skip 191st Street and stop at 207th Street which is more important, transfer to the Bx12 - Bay Plaza/Orchard Beach
4. stops will be
plan #1 (all major transfer points served) skips 4 stops
96th Street (1)(9)
103rd Street (9)
110th Street (1)
116th Street (1)(9)
125th Street (1)(9)
137th Street (1)(9)
145th Street (9)
157th Street (1)
168th Street (1)(9)
181st Street (1)(9)
191st Street (9)
Dyckman Street[200th Street] (1)
207th Street (1)(9)
215th Street (9)
225th Street (1)(9)
231st Street (1)(9)
238th Street (1)
242nd Street (1)(9)
Alternate plan #2(speeds up service slightly) skips 5 stops
96th Street (1)(9)
103rd Street (9)
110th Street (1)
116th Street (1)(9)
125th Street (1)(9)
137th Street (1)(9)
145th Street (9)
157th Street (1)
168th Street (1)(9)
181st Street (1)(9)
191st Street (9)
Dyckman Street[200th Street] (1)
207th Street (9)
215th Street (1)
225th Street (9)
231st Street (1)(9)
238th Street (1)
242nd Street (1)(9)
If the idea is to move people as fast as possible, cancel skip-stop.
Stations with fare registrations of 4 million should not have headways doubled to 10 minutes so that passengers at stations with fare registrations of 1 million can save under a minute in travel time.
MNRR??
Da Hui
What makes skipstop idiotic is that 145/157, the busiest stations on the northern part of the line, get ZERO benefit, not even the 1 or 2 minutes those at 231 and 242 get! Makes no sense.
96th Street (1)(9)
103rd Street (1)
110th Street (1)
116th Street (1)
125th Street (1)
137th Street (1)(9)
145th Street (9)
157th Street (9)
168th Street (1)(9)
181st Street (1)(9)
191st Street (1)
Dyckman Street[200th Street] (1)
207th Street (9)
215th Street (9)
225th Street (1)(9)
231st Street (9)
238th Street (1)(9)
242nd Street (1)(9)
Or maybe:
96th Street (1)(9)
103rd Street (1)
110th Street (1)
116th Street (1)
125th Street (1)
137th Street (1)(9)
145th Street (9)
157th Street (9)
168th Street (1)(9)
181st Street (1)(9)
191st Street (1)
Dyckman Street[200th Street] (1)
207th Street (9)
215th Street (9)
225th Street (9)
231st Street (9)
238th Street (9)
242nd Street (1)(9)
Maybe I don't have the stops just right, but what do you think of the concept?
Or maybe:
96th Street (1)(9)
103rd Street (1)
110th Street (1)
116th Street (1)
125th Street (1)
137th Street (1)(9)
145th Street (9)
157th Street (9)
168th Street (1)(9)
181st Street (1)(9)
191st Street (1)
Dyckman Street[200th Street] (1)
207th Street (9)
215th Street (9)
225th Street (9)
231st Street (9)
238th Street (9)
242nd Street (1)(9)
I like this idea... but I would make the 9 the express skipping from 96 to 157 Street and 191st to 242nd Street. the #1 would be the full time local. the catch is.. the 9 would not run as often as the #1.
N Bwy
You idea makes far too much sense to be adopted. How come the 4 train can work without this stupidity? Gee, all local trains making all local stops, what a concept
I'm not a big fan of skip stops either... I would have the #9 use the the center track (as it was designed) during the peak period.
N Bwy
Not having chunks of metal flying into the train!
Seems to me like it would only make it more difficult for the shop to have enough cars in service each rush hour.
N Bwy
The way ridership happens to have worked out on the line, it calls for short-turns rather than for express service.
Assuming South Ferry retains its current configuration, that is. If it's turned into a stub terminal, all bets are off -- it's not even clear if the 1/9 could keep its current level of service.
But the labor (lots of platform conductors) would be pricey, so I don't see it happening any time soon.
We could use more service. I don't know what was going on, but the 1/9 was having major problems today. I rode it three times. The first time, after waiting five minutes for a train, my train got stuck in congestion between 66th and 59th for so long that two expresses went by. (I don't know what happened after that since I bailed at 59th.) The second, after waiting at least ten minutes at 23rd SB, I was bypassed. The third, after waiting a few minutes at Rector SB (don't ask), I was bypassed again.
What the hell----? How can you bypass Rector???
Ever ride the Queens-bound QB Local during the evening rush? Picture 67th Avenue being 125th Street, 63rd Drive being 116th, Woodhaven being 110th, etc...
City Hall is the one exception, oddly enough. Passengers may ride from Brooklyn Bridge to Brooklyn Bridge.
http://www.railfanwindow.com/gallery/album74?page=1
Very carefully. Come railfanning with me sometime and I'll show you. Preferably AFTER you get your NEW camera. (a decent one with optical zoom, like a Canon or Olympus)
Maybe both...
That's a major problem I have with my camera. If I choose to manually turn the flash off, then my camera goes into "slow shutter" mode, and I have to hold the camera COMPLETELY steady, or else the picture comes out blurry. This doesn't happen when my flash is activated, or when I have my camera set to automatically detect what settings to use.
Talk about scene from a nightmare... I can just imagine that scary little toy flying up and biting my head off
...and a long way from looking like this:
(from http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/abandoned/14st.html)
http://www.railfanwindow.com/gallery/14StUnionSquare456
Does this mean that trains went straight up and down the Rockaway Peninsula from Mott Avenue to Rockaway Park and back as one-third of the "round robin?" Every subway map I've ever seen strongly suggests that this is not possible; does the necessary switching actually exist where the Far Rockaway and Rockaway Park branches meet with the portion of the line that comes down from Broad Channel that would allow a train to go directly between Mott Avenue and Rockaway Park without having to go up to Broad Channel along the way?
I'm guessing that this would have been the "HH" train circa 1970, or the "H" train that ran between the mid-'80s and early '90s, that would have done this.
Yes.
#3 West End Jeff
One of the branches should keep the A while the other one gets a different letter - most likely H since this has been used for the Rockaway Line on numerous occasions in the past; therefore the Lefferts branch could remain the A while the Far Rockaway branch gets changed to H.
This can even be carried one step further by using still another letter - probably "K" since this also has a blue bullet from the days it was used on the IND 8th Avenue line in Manhattan - to designate both the direct service between Manhattan/Brooklyn and Rockaway Park that runs only during rush hours, and the Broad Channel-Rockaway Park shuttle that operates at all other times.
Much less confusion all the way around if this is done.
Bill "Newkirk"
(H) Rockaways Shuttle
(K) Wash Hts/8 Avenue
Also, I have suggested numerous times on this board that:
A goes to Far Rockaway
H goes to Rockaway Park
and
K goes to Lefferts.
The letter H is already used internally to designate Rock Park shuttles.
Just look at the bottom of page 9 of this schedule.
The proposed 2 new lines are exactly what we have now, so no change in trains. The "K" is the Lefferts A renamed, and the "H" is the Rockaway Park Shuttle.
Rather than that though, I still like the idea of extending the C to Lefferts, abolishing the Rockaway Park shuttle completely, and sending all A service to the Rockaways, alternating between Rocka Park and Far Rock.
This of course would need extra trains because service slightly increase service between Euclid and Lefferts, double service between Rockaway Blvd and Broad Channel.
Arti
In addition to changing from "Far Rockaway" to "Lefferts Blvd, Qns", which are not that far apart, we must now change from (A) all the way to (K)! Look how far apart that is, if memory serves:
(A) Wash Hts/8 Av/Fulton
(C) 8 Av/Fulton
< C > Conc/8 Av/Fulton
(H) Rockaway Shuttle
(E) Queens Blvd/8 Av
(F) 6 Av/Culver
(F) Queens Blvd/6 Av/Culver
(G) Queens Blvd/Crosstown
(R) Bway/4 Av
(R) Astoria/Bway/4 Av
(S) 63 Street Shuttle
< W > Astoria/Bway
(B) Broadway/West End
< B > Astoria/Bway/West End
(D) Broadway/Brighton
(Q) Broadway/Brighton
(Q) 6 Av/Brighton
(D) there are 3-4 of these, don't remember what they say
(B) there are also 3-4 of these, don't remember those either
(K) Wash Hts/8 Av
do you REALLY think they're gonna have time to scroll that far, on 20 side signs? As it is there are occasionally mixed signs on R-32/38 consists with Far Rock and Lefferts being so close.
On end signs, it's not as much of an issue.
However, with R-44 LCD signs it would be an issue. I highly doubt they have anything like
H| INWOOD-207 St
H| 8 AV EXP
or for old signs
H|8 AV/FULTON EXP
H|to207 ST/MANHTN
and the same goes for K. But then again, they have the D via Essex, the W to 21 St/Queensbridge, and the X to World Trade Center via 6 Av, so nothing would surprise me...
Shouldn't this info be able to be programmed into the LCD sign like the "LONG ISLAND RR" that was programmed for the sign that was seen on Car 5228 at Rock Park on the Dec 28 MOD Trip?
Koi
...those are all codes. They can be reprogrammed, but I'm not sure how complicated or simple that is. They started reprogramming R-44 LCD codes ages ago, so that they are the same as the R-46's, but there are still quite a few with the old signs, so that should be some indication.
How about letter/number combinations for branches and variants?
A1: A to Far Rock
A2: A to Lefferts
A3: A/S to Rock Park
J: Jamaica Line basic service
J1: J skip-stop
J2: Z skip-stop
1: Broadway/7th Avenue basic service
1A: 1 skip-stop
1B: 9 skip-stop
5: Lexington-Dyre basic service
5A: 5 to/from Dyre via Bronx Exp
5B: 5 to/from Nereid via Bronx Exp
6: Lexington local basic service
6A: 6 Lex local, Pelham express
6B: 6 Lex local, Pelham local to Parkchester
Now, try telling a confused rider to transfer from the A1 to the 1A.
That's because handle changes are confusing.
Now, I'm off to post more messages using my 59th handle.
Oh yeah, and if you haven't figured it out, it's Thurston that changed his handle. Who else has a qsbus email?
I think all of the time, Clayton chooses not to be ignorant, but he fails miserably. And he isn't funny either.
The point was valid. Since I never e-mailed him, I had no reason to know his e-mail address. Even more people don't know where he works.
You work with Westcode44 in the bathroom at the PABT?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Chuck Greene
SubTalk craziness continues.
I know how to stop wholesale handle changes: Charge for it.
If handle changes would cost $25.00 per change (waived for City and MTA types who face problems posting) betcha there wouldn't be more than 5 a year.
You, no. Others...
Anyone who knows about the first D trains heading through the Manhattan Bridge or anything else we can do for the whole night, post it here.
Already we have the offical place for a late night dinner or snack. Famous Pita, and THIS WILL NOT CHANGE AT ALL. If you want to eat at Nathans at Coney Island, go right ahead while we enjoy the all-you-can eat hot Falafel, cold salad bar and unlimited sodas at a nice no-frills Kosher Restaurant.
Perhaps, they are leaving themselves an "out" just in case things go wrong, or they decide to make last minute changes to the proposed modified services.
The details will be posted in a few weeks. No need to confuse everybody this early.
Check it out.
This should have been done already, since the traincrew would probably have already picked their runs for this time period, and the services changes presumably occur at the end of a time period.
I know nothing about the service plans, but I imagine that most of the changes will be implemented after 2AM. I don't think you will see anything as funky as what you're suggesting here. The trainsets will probably go into layup in the yards and then depart the next morning with the new routes. For the few trainsets that stay out overnight, I would guess that they would be where the route changes will occur, but those would be kept to a minimum.
The road crews will probably not see the supplement until Saturday afternoon on the 21st, and the fun and games should all be over by about 0300 Sunday.
Where is this place? Is the tahini sauce garlicky? Baba ganoush and fried eggplant? I mean, if I had to be a vegetarian...
Enjoy, maybe I can meet you there tonight if you don't mind (I won't be ordering anything, just stopping by to say hello.)
I'd love to, but I won't be there for a while. I like to know where the tastiest things are (plus I'm always looking for new places to convince my vegetarian (not vegan) daughters that there's more to life than cheese pizza.
I'll try to get there the next time the CB holds a meeting on Avenue H.
Rhetorically, the thing that bugs me is "pollovegetarian" or "pescevegetarian." Pollos and pesces ain't vegetables.
There are people who practice veganism for different reasons altogether, but there are those that do so because of animal cruelty issues:
Well, COWS LIKE TO BE MILKED, CHICKENS WILL LAY EGGS ANYWAY!
And why is it that people can have jobs, but not animals? I can see the issue behind killing animals (especially pigs or baby cows), but there are ways to harvest animal byproducts without causing the animal to suffer.
Regards,
Reverend Lovejoy
Hmmm, Flushing Meadows.
Has nothing to do with trains, but thanks for the food tip. I love all that stuff, but I'm trying to shake off some pounds. But next May, when I'm taking the car in to be serviced at Jiffy Lube, it will be lunch time. And, it's just a short ride on the bus.
But that doesn't mean you HAVE to order a meat platter or sandwich. For $4.50, you can get a nice Falafel sandwich and order some French Fries or Bean soup on the side.
Regards,
Jimmy :^)
You mean flavor sauce. You pour it on your crunch patties inside your pocket bread.
And that's what we call specialty food.
As sweeping as these changes are, they're not as extensive as the 12/11/88 changes. I'd rate them #3, behind CHrystie and 12/88.
Chrystie wasn't nearly that bad.
The 12/12/88 changes affected more than just Archer Ave and the Manhattan Bridge. The K was eliminated, the C expanded (along with Fulton St express service), CPW local service radically upgraded and the resumption of Brighton express service. Unless you rode the IRT, you were affected that Monday morning in some way.
Regards,
Jimmy
Don't remind me!!!
This happened in 1987.
I have the maps which show this.
Turnover at Brighton for the (new) D was slow down to record levels. And then the NX terminated at Brighton from the other side, but I guess those trains continued inbound on Brighton as something else. QB? D?
The very notion of Southern Division BMT trains running on 6th Avenue after over fifty years of Broadway or Nassau must've been quite revolutionary and hard for longtime Brooklynites to digest. The appearance of newly designated routes such as B, JJ, LL, M, MJ, NX, QJ and RJ must've been jarring as well.
Of course the LL, M and MJ initially ran the exact same routings as their predecessor numbered lines, and those number designations never seemed to really catch on among regular Eastern Division riders. No one of that generation ever referred to the 10, 14 or 15- it was always respectively "da Myrt", "da Jamaica" or " da Broadway Brooklyn" and "da Canarsie." The letter designations for the Southern Division lines- N, Q, QB, QT, RR and T- had only started in 1960, so didn't have the same referential influence as the IND letters that were used from the very inception of THAT system.
The arrival of the KK ten months after Christie was obviously greeted with apathy or it would still be around. I would've liked to have been on an inbound train leaving Essex to see the reactions of people when arriving at Broadway/Lafayette. The fact that R1/9s didn't have PAs must've helped a lot.
I WAS very much around for the 1976 demise of the EE and resulting introduction of the weekday N to Queens. That caused lots of confusion along 60th Street and in Queens for about a year. The fact that R46s out of Jamaica Yard were the predominate equipment on the N at first also caused confusion for riders on the Brooklyn segment of that line long accustomed to R32s. The equipment/line association developed by riders is as strong- if not stronger than the route/line assocation.
The initial Manny B shuffles of 1985-86 caused lotsa confusion, especially with the two separate 'Bronx' and 'Manhattan' B and D lines. (However, older Brooklynites and BMT purists were delighted to see Brighton and West End trains running on Broadway again.) That's probably why the Q 'diamond' and W were established in 2001 when the bridge's southside had to be shut down again- not that the Q 'diamond' designation doesn't cause enough confusion!
Straight terminal switches- 2/3/4/5 in Brooklyn (1983); N/R in Queens (1987); and B/C uptown (1997) seemed to have gone over fairly easily. There WAS some trepidation at seeing the R run along Queens Boulevard again after going to Astoria for twenty years- but the addition of weekend service through the 11th Street jug more than compensated.
I was unfortunately vacationing in London for the December '88 changes. It took at least two years for people to get used to the idea of the E and F having separate Queens terminals. There were also adjustments necessary to get used to the R running to Jamaica, the Q running on 6th Avenue and the C running midday weekdays. And of course, the R to Jamaica was cut back gradually from 24/7 to rush hours to not at all. Then the loss of Hillside express service had to be coped with.
I don't recall too much confusion with the 1989 opening of the 63rd Street extension- perhaps because the Q and weekend B still served their longtime respective 57th Street terminals while continuing past them. Residents of Roosevelt Island, who'd been screaming for subway service for 14 years, started complaining bitterly that the subway was bringing in 'the wrong element'. Damned if you do-
The fall '92 implementation of limited peak directional A's to Rock Park and cutback of Cs to Euclid was a mixed blessing. Those few Rock Park specials seem very popular. But a lot of people bemoaned no longer being able to ride a midday weekday C to the mainland where they could easily switch to either A service Manhattan-bound. In weather like this, would you rather have be kicked off a shuttle to wait at Broad Channel for an A from Far Rock? Or wait at Euclid for an A from either Lefferts OR Far Rock?
We barely had time to digest the July '01 changes when bin laden orchestrated more changes a month and a half later. Seeing the Q run along Queens Boulevard, J to Bay Ridge, 1 to Brooklyn and 2 as a full-time Manhattan local was an awkward adjustment that was somewhat muted by the overall feeling of upheaval. Throughout the entire course of the two latter changes, there were people at West Side express stops desirious of a local stop who INSISTED on letting the 2 go by in favor of the 1. Most 1's were greeted with derision or confusion in Brooklyn.
Much more confusion resulted from a change where a few thousand feet of new trackage was put into service without any new station being opened. After 25 months, people still expect the F to go through 53rd Street; panic when the F they're on arrives at Queensbridge instead of Plaza (or 57th/6th instead of 5th/53rd) let E after E go by along 53rd Street on weekends while refusing to listen to any advisory by employee or fellow rider; inbound weekday Queens local riders regarding the V with utter disdain; people traveling on weekdays strictly between 2nd Avenue and Rock Center refusing to board a V, but insisting on waiting for the F.
I can't wait to see the reactions of people, especially on B's and D's going from Manhattan to Brooklyn, when they see everything's been reversed from the way it was circa 1967-2001. The full removal of the W from Brooklyn and weekends- and sharp curtailment of service through Montague- may cause problems as well. People have gotten too used to the N running local all through Manhattan.
-A court petition to block the 11/26/1967 changes in Brooklyn was unsucesseful.
-Two days later, there were major power outages in Queens that affected the Flushing and Astoria "RR" lines. That evening, the famous "D" reroute took place. The morotrman (at the time, they were called as such), punched the wrong route, and sent 800 customers on a wild ride on the Broadway line. After discharging his train in Manhattan, the motorman took his train and ran "light" through Queens before coming back to the regular D line at 59th st/CC.
-The B was a displaced route if there was ever one. Although it was able to run to 168th st/WH during rush hours, replacing the AA, the future terminal for the B line at 57th st/6th Ave was not ready until 1968. So, B trains had to terminate at West 4th st and relay during non-rush hours until 57/6 was finished.
-The confusion as to whether the QJ or the JJ was running on the BMT Jamaica was simplified as one route, the QJ. Matters made worse on the QJ and RJ as it had several different service patterns.
During the single month of June 1940, the 9th Avenue el, the 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx, a big chunk of the Fulton Street L and the 5th Avenue and Bay Ridge Ls in Brooklyn were axed. This led to truncations and a few reroutings. For example, the Culver L service continued to run, but cut off at 9th Avenue. The Fulton-Lex was created to continue to provide a sort of Park Row service for outer Fulton riders.
Probably the biggest rerouting was the move of the entire Southern Division of the BMT (except 5th Avenue and Culver) through DeKalb Avenue instead of through Sands Street, but that happened over several years.
That Lex-Fulton routing must've been incredibly convoluted. Seems like trains for Lefferts would run via Liberty to the Junction, via Broadway to Gates, via Lex downtown and then over the Brooklyn Bridge. That must've seemed like a drag to outer Fulton/Liberty riders accustomed to going in all the way via Fulton.
A persistent rumor says that scrap metal from the demolition of the Second Avenue El was sold to Japan in 1940, only to be fabricated into weapons and ammunition for use against Americans in the upcoming war.
Records may exist to show whether the sales actually took place, but given the largely fungible nature of scrap metal it would be well-nigh impossible to prove (or disprove) the second half of the rumor.
Apparently it was true, insofar as the steel was sold to Japan. Roosevelt's embargo of steel to Japan in 1940 has been cited in recent years (but not much since 9/11) as a proximate cause and/or justification for Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor.
There is no way of telling whether the actual steel went into munitions (the phrase was "we sold the 6th avenue el to Japan, and they gave it back to us at Pearl Harbor") but it almost certainly went into war work (remember Japan was already at war in China), or freed other steel for the purpose, as Japan was almost completely dependent on steel imports.
I can't testify to the Chrystie Street changes, but the 12/88 changes were certainly drastic in Queens. New lines, a connection between the IND and BMT in Jamaica, no E service to Hillside Ave for the first time in over 50 years, 24/7 R service to 179th. It was very confusing.
Yeah, I never meant to say that all 4 lines operated at the same time.
"A", "B", "C", "D", "E", "J", "K", "Q", "R".
That's 9 subway lines. If you want to get technical about it, it really effected 11 subway lines because the "B" and "D" each had two entirely seperate lines-the Central Park West Division and the Soutern Divisiion.
In any event, if the usual pattern of implementing a new service plan on Sunday morning at 12:01 AM holds, a key component of that plan -- Brighton service to 6th Avenue -- will not be in effect until Monday morning. And the Sea Beach would be running through the tunnel during the overnight hours, and would not be express on Broadway until Monday.
Perhaps a (very) early breakfast at Juniors would be more appropriate kickoff to full service over the Manhattan Bridge than a midnight snack.
There is currently Brighton Express service.
There is currently Broadway Express service 24/7 and it will remain so.
There is no service over the east side of the bridge.
The Times' policy would be to get the info from a source that the reporter considered reliable. Probably someone in NYCT with significant authority told the reporter that 2/22 was a very likely date.
Of course there are no guarantees until it's signed and delivered, but how often does a new pick get delayed this late in the game?
Regards,
Jimmy 8^P
The offical place will be Famous Pita on Coney Island Av for all you non-wackos coming on the trip. ;) AND THAT WILL NOT CHANGE WHATSOEVER.
If the first D train over the bridge is southbound, I'm turning around and going straight to bed.
If we can't figure out which one is first, I'll go for northbound -- if I have to make a wild guess, I might as well make the one that's more convenient.
(these are all based on the schedule.)
Last (M) in/out of 9th Ave:
leaves Metro @ 2:23 PM
arrives 36 St/4 Av @ 3:15 PM
arrives 9th Ave @ 9:19 PM
leaves 9th Ave @ 3:23 PM
arrives 36 St/4 Av @ 3:27 PM
What to do from 3:27 to 8:35, I don't know.
Last <Q> to Brighton:
leaves Brighton Beach @ 8:35 PM
arrives 57 St @ 9:16 PM
leaves 57 St @ 9:24 PM
arrives Brighton Beach @ 10:04 PM
then B68 bus to Stillwell for the W
Last (W) over the bridge:
northbound:
Leaves Stillwell @ 10:37 PM
departs Pacific @ 11:11 PM
arrives Canal @ 11:22 PM
southbound:
Leaves Astoria @ 11:10 PM
leaves Canal @ 11:40 PM
arrives Pacific @ 11:51 PM
That's 3:19 PM.
But the last M out of 9 Av seems doable for me.
Damm, we will be crying at 10:04 PM that Friday.
Sounds like pretty good incentive to me.
The N doesn't run to Coney. In addition, the N won't be running over the bridge at night anyway, all that will happen to the N at 12:01 on 2/22 is that it will start running local on 4th and go to Astoria via the tunnel and Broadway local. I can ride that now if I want. The first bridge N will be a few hours later.
(Cries at the < Q > being removed.) :-(
The < Q > can run express in both directions because the Beautiful Brighton Line allows that.
Complete with a mistake (8-( . The first page says the B replaces the circle Q. The map, on the next page, is correct, with the B replacing the diamond Q. Good ol' MTA.
Don't forget: DUH!
Next up, the map inside the LIRR/MNR Cityticket brochure gets a huge DUH! from me.
Note the map in .PDF format that the MTA provides is the one used in all of the posters up in the trains.
From: Sunday, July 22, 2001 12:01:00
to: Sunday, February 22, 2004 12:01:00
It is 945 days, 0 hours, 0 minutes and 0 seconds between those dates
Or 81648000 seconds or 1360800 minutes or 22680 hours
945 days is 2.589041096 years. The north side would have to be closed for 1460 days to be closed for four years.
Make that notnew.
Ask the President. You end up in the wrong place.
Da Hui
Bring
Your
Own
Unlimited
Ride
Metrocard
Bob Sklar
1. Friday Night (Last < Q > and W)
2. Saturday afternoon: Randy Kennedy at Transit Museum 1:30 PM
3. Saturday night (First D train)
4. Eating? Allied forces (Famous Pita) or Hijackers (Nathans)?
5. First N train over Bridge at 5:30 AM
6. First B train at 5:58 AM Monday Morning
I will do the following:
1. Most likely, but not sure
2. Yes
3. Yes
4. Allied Forces
5. Yes
6. Yes (Why should I pass this up? Of course it's the B Brighton Express)
Enjoy cold winter Sea Breeze weather in your shorts, if you decide to go.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
--Mark
Regards,
Bernard Ryder, mercenary soldier.
Jimmy ;)
As for me? I'm riding last M out of 9 Av, and that will probably be it for me.
Me? I think I'll spend my weekend either passed out on my mother's attempts at creol food (I like her stuff, but have never tried the real thing, so I have no comparisons), or stealing one of my parent's cars to go drive up the River Line and try to finish my track map of the line.
I'll get up to NY to sample the bridge reopening sometime in mid-march or so, once this semester is over.
1. No
2. No
3. That's your best chance of seeing me.
4. Could someone please post times and addresses, or refer me to where they may be found. If dinner is right before the D train then there's no reason I'd miss it.
5. Very slim chance. Maybe if I do really well on my physics homework I'll stay that late.
6. No
First n/b B leaves Brighton at 0558; first s/b B leaves Bedford at 0535.
B is using cars that are shopped at CIY.
Which one makes it over the bridge first? If CIY is generous enough to send a train out to cover the 0002, then that's it - at this hour, it will stop at DeKalb. The 0004 out of 205 gets to Grand Street at 0050, whereas the 0002 out of Stillwell gets there at 0048.
We should know by later tonight. Stay Tuned!
Right on the first one, questionable on the second one. According to the timetable it may be more like 0525 out of BPB.
Today you have the last M train, the last Q Diamond and the last W over the Manhattan Bridge.
Saturday (2/21/04)
Sea Beach Fred and I will be at the Transit Museum in Downtown Brooklyn from 1 PM to 2:30.
The first D train is at midnight, Sunday. After we ride it, some of us will head over to Famous Pita, while Mr. Gray and company (the hijackers) will eat at Nathans in Coney Island. This ETA is around 2 AM. Afterwards, we head for the first N train over the Manhattan Bridge at 5 AM (we are not expected to cross the bridge until close to 6 AM but we have to be ready at 5 AM).
On the W, we have overlapping service northbound, with the 2223 AST becoming the first D from Stillwell, but the next 2 W's after that returning to Astoria (to become N's). Then, the next 4 becoming D's, and the remaining two laying up.
The 2257 STL and the remaining five after that travel to Astoria and turn into N's. The last two of those are the ones that left after the first D. (0011, 0035).
The last N to Pacific leaves 86th at 0037, and the first to Astoria is the 101, which then leaves Astoria 0250 after the 6 that came from the W.
Pretty much just as I thought it might be done. A dispatcher had told me of trains being "staged" (started from various places along the lines) at places such as W4, but this is not in the plans.
I imagine that crews Stillwell Terminal and Ditmars Blvd. are going to go nuts tonight having to change all the signs on the trains that come into their stands, as well as relay the extras into the yard.
Regards,
Jimmy
You can get just a Falfel Sandwich for $6 with the Salad Bar. Soda is unilimited @ $1.50 per cup.
Regards,
Jimmy
Regards,
Jimmy
This morning I went to Beford Park to finout it's 0002 from Stilwell. This shuld be the correct time. I don't know what West 4th St was thinking.
We still be at Stilwell, regardless.
Jimmy
A pilot program for Saturday and Sunday travel between
Brooklyn or Manhattan and Queens on MTA Long Island Rail Road
Manhattan and the Bronx on MTA Metro-North Railroad
CityTicket is a new, less expensive way to travel on Saturday and Sunday within the city limits on MTA Long Island Rail Road or MTA Metro-North Railroad. It gives you more choice between subway, bus, or commuter rail lines for weekend travel. It is available only on Saturdays and Sundays.
The pilot program runs from Saturday, January 10 to Sunday, June 27, 2004.
Price
CityTicket costs just $2.50 and is good for one-way travel that begins and ends within New York City (LIRR riders can change trains at Jamaica as long as they continue their trips in the same direction).
On the LIRR, you can use CityTicket for trips within Zone 1 or between Zones 1 and 3 (see station lists and map for details); on MNR, you can use CityTicket for trips on Hudson or Harlem line trains between the Bronx and Manhattan.
Other low fare programs — including Family Fare, reduced-fare programs for senior citizens and people with disabilities, LIRR’s $2.25 off-peak fare for travel within Zone 3, and MNR’s intermediate fare of $2.25 that is valid at all times for travel within the Bronx — remain in effect.
Buying a CityTicket
You can purchase tickets at New York City LIRR or MNR ticket windows or ticket machines at stations in the program. Not all stations have ticket windows open on weekends, but all stations have ticket machines.
LIRR tickets may be purchased with cash or personal checks at ticket windows or with cash or credit/debit/ATM cards at ticket machines. MNR tickets may be purchased with cash or credit/debit/ATM cards at both ticket windows and ticket machines. You cannot use MetroCard to pay for CityTicket.
CityTicket cannot be purchased on board a train; if you buy tickets on board the train you have to pay the full on-board off-peak fare.
Tickets go on sale at 12:01 a.m. on Saturday through 11:59 p.m. on Sunday and must be used on the day of purchase. A grace period allows you to travel until 4 a.m. Sunday or Monday morning for tickets purchased on Saturdays or Sundays respectively. Check the appropriate schedules to determine if service to your destination is available.
Look up train timetables on the MTA website, or at the station. When purchasing your tickets at a ticket window or ticket machine, you need to specify “one way” and you will be asked for your starting point and destination. If your trip falls within the CityTicket area, you will be offered the option to purchase CityTicket.
If you are traveling with children, remember that children under 5 ride free and up to four children 5 to 11 per adult or guardian pay just 75 cents.
Restrictions
CityTicket is valid only for travel on Saturday or Sunday.
CityTicket is valid only on the date of purchase.
CityTicket must be purchased at ticket windows or ticket machines.
CityTicket cannot be bought on board trains.
LIRR CityTicket is not valid for travel to or from Shea Stadium and Belmont Park stations (which are only open during special events), or the Far Rockaway Station (because these trips travel through Nassau county).
MNR CityTicket is not valid on New Haven Line trains between Manhattan and Fordham Station.
CityTicket cannot be combined for travel between New York City stations and points outside the city.
CityTicket is valid for direct travel only; you cannot change direction at junction points.
There is no free transfer between the railroads and subways or buses.
In order to avoid abuse, CityTicket has a limited ticket refund policy. You may apply by mail for a refund within 30 days; a $2.00 service fee per ticket will be charged. If there is a possibility that your plans may change, consider purchasing your return ticket later in the day.
For more information call:
Long Island Rail Road Travel Information: 718-217-5477
Metro-North Railroad Travel Information: 212-532-4900
Frequently Asked Questions
Does CityTicket replace the LIRR’s lower ticket price for travel within Zone 3?
No. Travel during off-peak times that begins and ends in LIRR’s Zone 3 (see list of stations) costs $2.25, $1.50 for reduced fare customers, 75 cents for children 5 to 11, and is free for children under 5. But CityTicket will lower the price for travel within Zone 1 or between Zones 1 and 3.
Does CityTicket replace MNR’s lower ticket price for travel within the Bronx?
No. Intermediate fares for travel within the Bronx remains $2.25 at all times, $1.00 for reduced fare customers, 75 cents for children 5 to 11, and is free for children under 5. But CityTicket will lower the cost of a trip between Manhattan and the Bronx.
What do I do if the Ticket Window at a station is closed and the Ticket Machine is not working?
When you board the train pay the full on-board fare and get a receipt. You can then apply by mail for a refund for the difference. Service charges will not apply. Mail your ticket receipt and request to LIRR Refund Department, P.O. Box 350383, Jamaica, NY 11435 or Metro-North Railroad, Ticket Redemption, P.O. Box 4117, New York, NY 10017.
Can I use CityTicket if I am traveling beyond the city limits?
No. CityTicket is valid for trips beginning and ending within the city limits. If you are traveling outside the city limits on either end of your trip, you must purchase the standard fare. Be sure to purchase your ticket before you board to avoid the higher on-board fare.
Is there a reduced CityTicket fare for seniors and people with disabilities?
Because CityTicket represents a significant discount from our regular fares, no further reduced-fare discounts are available. For all CityTicket trips, the cost of CityTicket is less than the reduced-fare ticket price for seniors and people with disabilities.
Long Island Rail Road Stations Metro-North Railroad Stations
Zone 1
Penn Station
Woodside
Forest Hills
Kew Gardens
Flatbush Av-Brooklyn
Nostrand Av
East New York
Zone 3
Jamaica
Flushing-Main St
Murray Hill
Broadway
Auburndale
Bayside
Douglaston
Little Neck
Hollis
Queens Village
St. Albans
Laurelton
Rosedale
Locust Manor
Manhattan
Grand Central Terminal
Harlem-125th Street
Bronx
Hudson Line
Morris Heights
University Heights
Marble Hill
Spuyten Duyvil
Riverdale
Harlem Line
Melrose
Tremont
Fordham
Botanical Garden
Williams Bridge
Woodlawn
Wakefield
Hicksville was high platform when there were no electrics E/O Mineola (to E.Williston), unless of course you are including Hicksville as part of the Port Jefferson Branch)
I was away from a computer all last week so if anything was posted I didn't see it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
When they electified south of South Amboy, was that done in sections? From your response I would assume that to be the case as it is now all the way to Long Branch.
Some other questions:
1) Was the yard south of Long Branch always there or was it built for the electrification project?
2) What up with the Aberdeen/Matawan station(s). Back in 1996 I traveled that line frequently and noticed the trains stopped at the northern station, but there appeeared to be another low level station just to the south. Now there is a platform at the southern station and the trains stop there. Where there at one time two stations? I find that hard to believe two stations right next to each other would be operated. Maybe on one was a PRR station and the other a CNJ?
The small white building in the middle was the station until very recently.
When the opened the high platforms at the south end a few years ago, they changed the name of the station from Matawan to Aberdeen-Matawan.
Both nothern stations are now in a state of disuse.
Peace,
ANDEE
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Mark
Oh, go to ddot.dc.gov
The Yellow Line is to the right of the bridges...
Mark
36th St. & Benning Road. NE Pocket track west of D and G Junction on upper right side of image.
John
Now that I have had a chance to see this angle in the day time, the elevated in the upper right is the C Route Orange line tracks east of D and G Junction (D99). The ramp on the left just beyond the end of the elevated is the east bound G Route Blue line track east of D and G Junction.
John
Thanks for confirming this,
Mark
Thanks for confirming this.
Slight boo boo in my description, it should have read.
Now that I have had a chance to see this angle in the day time, the elevated in the upper right is the D Route Orange line tracks east of D and G Junction (D99). The ramp on the left just beyond the end of the elevated is the east bound G Route Blue line track east of D and G Junction.
John
Mark
I figured that might have been possible. I did not watch the camera long enough to see one of the trains coming west off the G Route Blue Line under the D Route Orange Line elevated.
John
D: Will be extended to Brooklyn via 4th Avenue express and West End to Coney Island. Nights local in Brooklyn
M: Cut back to Chambers Street midday
N: Express in Manhattan south of 42nd, Manhattan Bridge, 4th Avenue express in Brooklyn, weekdays. Weekends local north of Canal. Nights local whole way and via tunnel.
Q: (Q) remains the same, eliminated
R: Nighttime shuttle cut back to 36th, instead of running to Pacific.
Grand Street Shuttle train and bus eliminated.
e.g. < Q > is typed like this: < (sp)Q(sp) >.
Thank you.
<Q>
My handle already tried that. LOL
What the hell? You DON'T need an end bracket??
Test:
- David of the Other Broadway
MUHAHAHAHAHAHA!
But what I don't get of all things is why
Possibly to see if the posting had anything to do with the subject of the thread!
It opened 33 copies of itself, screwed up my sound level settings, caused me to do a cold boot in order to clean out the cache and get back on.
I think DCrazy will now cool his heels in my Killfile for a while.
I had no problems. I think you just have your computer set-up incorrectly. Maybe you have scripting enabled.
And so many sites requires you to have Java script or even CSS turned on to even view text only HTML pages.
Maybe it's time for Dave to ban script related tags. Or he can simply shut down the "talks" if people insist on playing with fire...
For the mean time, I think I'll keep browsing subtalk with an old version of Netscape with everything off.
Script, META redirect tag, or whatever, it's still unwanted.
So, DCrazy is parked in my Killfile for awhile.
< META REFRESH="http://Dan Lawrence is an idiot.com/" CONTENT=5>
Let me try that.
But then again, he'll never see this message because I'm being punished in his killfile! Oh no!!!!!!11
I don't appreciate having even one window opened without my request (and that's why I run Privoxy), but repeatedly opening windows on somebody else's computer is outrageous.
Peace,
ANDEE
AEM7
I did!!!!
To me, it just sounded as though an inference was being made about what posts I may or may not read and respond to...
I mean, you see your own name in a post like that and you think why??
"He put in a HTML code that reads the cookie on your computer"
- I'm just a user with a PC at work, none at home.... does he have software that can tell where my postings originate from? I mean what's going on here?
And he didn't see Ed Flemming either! :-)
--Mark
Peggy Sue or Pretty Peggy-O?
I think maybe on the Shuttle once, in 1971....
Jimmy
8P
Peace,
ANDEE
I read all sorts of stuff on this board. I just don't post as much as some people do.
The handle display was my post.
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Which one works, anyway?
There is no need for spaces, simply replace < with < and > with > Do not preview before posting.
Mike, what is it with you and "secret"? There is nothing secret about the 12:01 departure.
So after decades of right-handed token entry, lefties can't swipe to the right? There will be abolutely thousands of folks who end up swiping for the wrong turnstile side.
And don't forget the cost to double the number of card readers, plus the maintenance to keep them working. And which display would apply?
Better to spend money on running trains better than silly trifles.
Posted on:1/5/04 12:26:35 PM
Due to an obstruction on the roadbed south of 110th Street-Lenox Avenue station, there is no 2 or 3 service between Times Square-42nd Street station and 148 Street-Lenox Avenue station at this time. Bronx-bound trains are running on the line between Nevins St., Brooklyn and 149th St.-Grand Concourse in the Bronx; the train has been extended to 135th Street-Lenox Avenue, and there is bus shuttle service between 135th Street-Lenox Avenue and 96th Street-Broadway, where service is available.
Due to an obstruction on the roadbed at Vernon Blvd-Jackson Avenue station, the 7 is suspended in both directions between Queensboro Plaza and Times Square-42nd Street at this time.
I heard that it was a "stalled train" first, then it was called a "smoke condition." I also heard that trains were terminating at Queensboro Plaza AND Hunter's Point Av! That was something to see. However, I was already at the stop I wanted to get off at in the first place, and the train I had just got off of wasn't even moving out of that station, so I just left and headed for Roosevelt Avenue.
Blocked Tracks Disrupt Service On Several Subway Lines
JANUARY 05TH, 2004
Blocked tracks are causing service disruptions on the No. 2 and 3 lines in Manhattan and on the No. 7 line in Queens.
Just before 9 a.m., according to the Metropolitan Transportation Authority, a piece of metal pierced the underside of an uptown No. 2 train after it left the 96th Street station. The object, which may have been a segment of rail, came up through the floor of the subway's front car, triggering the emergency brake.
Passengers said they were stuck in the tunnel for almost an hour until they were evacuated. No injuries were reported.
"It was very shaky, like if something hit us," said Badora Bacchus, one of the passengers. "People were falling."
Crews are still working on removing the disabled train from the tracks. In the meantime, there is no No. 2 or 3 service between Times Square and 148th Street-Lenox Avenue. Bronx-bound No. 2 trains are running on the No. 5 line between Nevins Street in Brooklyn and 149th Street-Grand Concourse in the Bronx.
The No. 5 train has been extended to 135th Street-Lenox Avenue, and there is shuttle bus service between 135th Street-Lenox Avenue and 96th Street-Broadway, where service on the No. 1 and 9 lines is still available.
Meanwhile, there is no service on the No. 7 line between Queensboro Plaza and Times Square, due to an obstruction on the roadbed at the Vernon Boulevard-Jackson Avenue station.
It is not clear when normal service will resume.
Ah ha! You know what this means...keep a look out for a ML Redbird set pressed into service with the resumption of 2/3 service. You never know...
After spending three and a half years here in the outback of Southwestern Virginia I'm way past due to get back to civilization again.
I've already got my first subway trip planned. Since I would be arriving in late February my itinerary is: the B from Manhattan to Brighton Beach; then make my way to the D and head back to Manhattan. I would love to be there in time for the opening of the Manny B. Then perhaps a side trip on the 7 line to see what it's like with the R62s. (It was still all redbirds the last time I rode it).
Keep your fingers crossed..........
Man.. What a culture shock you're in for.
I lived at 175 Adams, which now has a gym. Also, a great diner, Celesete is at the southwest section of the complex. I highly suggest you atleast take a look at it. A truely wonderful neighborhood with a variety of people and ages.
I grew up on Crescent Place off of West Main Street. We just sold the house a couple of months ago after my mother's death. I worked for the old WALL back in the 70s when it was still rockin 'n rollin.
My brother still lives in the area (in the town of Mamakating near Bloomingburg).
I remember those signal problems very well. It seemed back in the 90s that everytime a cloud would appear in the sky the signals would go down and the train would crawl to Suffern.
One of the options for a place to live is in Oxford Depot (between Monroe and Chester), which is where we lived prior to moving down here. It's a nice quiet neighborhood...despite the proximity of Camp LaGuardia.
That's good news indeed, but I must say that you're probably one of the very, very, very few people who's moving from the Sunbelt to New York to get a job!
Squeal like a pig!
Anyway, with the B train headed to Brighton Beach (an alliteration in and of itself), It would be fun to see how many B sounds can be made in a plausible description of B line service.
for example
Brooklyn-bound B trains run on the Brighton line to Brighton Beach, bypassing several stations.
or
B trains run the Brighton Express between Brighton Beach in Brooklyn and Bedford Park Boulevard in the Bronx via the Bridge.
It's fun! Try it!
Hopefully, all is cleared by now. If not, the PM rush is going to be a disaster.
Anyone know what's causing this?
MTA New York City Transit
Service Alert
Posted on:1/5/04 1:32:48 PM
Due to an obstruction on the roadbed south of 110th Street-Lenox Avenue station, there is no 2 or 3 service between Times Square-42nd Street station and 148 Street-Lenox Avenue station at this time. Bronx-bound 2 trains are running on the 5 line between Nevins St., Brooklyn and 149th St.-Grand Concourse in the Bronx; the 5 train has been extended to 135th Street-Lenox Avenue, and there is bus shuttle service between 135th Street-Lenox Avenue and 96th Street-Broadway, where 1 service is available.
And in other news...
Due to an obstruction on the roadbed at Vernon Blvd-Jackson Avenue station, the 7 is suspended in both directions between Queensboro Plaza and Times Square-42nd Street at this time.
See the Track Map
Scroll down and left until you reach the Lenox line area for further clarification. I hope this helps you.
-I mean its a just lot of trouble to go through for an underutilized leg of the system...
Koi
Save the DUH! for the inexcusable errors by NYCT.
-Stef
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
wayne
Peace,
ANDEE
The story is on WCBS 880. They were lucky as the part went through the floor and pierced a chair where someone could have been sitting.
Looks like the car will need underbody repairs, a new heater, and a new floor.
-Stef
Yes. I'm told it was a previously removed defective rail that was being stored inside the gauge.
like this:
Do you hear something?
I think the cereal is talking!
What's it saying?
Snap, Crackle, and POP!
The 7 line suspension between QBP and TS is still in effect as of this post.
There was no 7 Express service, as was indicated in this announcement I recorded.
Eventually, after waiting 15 minutes, a 7 train finally comes in on Track 1.
Afterwards, it went downhill, with long dwell times at many stops.
Fifth Avenue
Vernon-Jackson
Queensboro Plaza
Tensions mount at 33 St, as some rowdy kids from Aviation H.S. try to get on, but to no avail.
74 St-Broadway
However, after Junction Blvd, things calmed down, and dwell times were more close to the usual.
103 St
111 St
Willets Point - Shea Stadium
Finally, we get to Main St, and a long, arduous commute drew to a close.
Then I go to take the 7 train and I end up dealing with THAT problem as well.They said it was switch problems.Wound up staying there and directing people to the N&W and helping out however else I could till the train finally left TSQ.By then it was too late for me to go to College Point so I just hung around GCT for a bit,went to eat lunch then went to do something that doesn't pertain to this board.
Da Hui
I would also becareful of what you post on this board as it seems lots of higher ups like to check them out.
Good Luck...........
And as far as your statement "I would also becareful of what you post on this board as it seems lots of higher ups like to check them out.", that is very very true. And it is very likely that Paul has already blacklisted himself from ever becoming an Engineer or even an Assistant C/R with MNCR, thanks to his posts here.
Don't be THAT paranoid. It's true that MTA bigwigs have people scouting this board but I don't think anything that anyone would say could permanently blacklist them from something. Besides, they really don't have time to track down who A FULTON 8TH AVE EXPRESS is and try to figure out which employee he/she is, unless they said something really out of line, such as giving away company secrets. I don't know what he said to DUTCHRAILNUT but I doubt it could be that bad. It's not like he posted here something to the effect of "MNCR director of external relations had an affair with so-and-so's wife". And even if he posted that he might still get away with it.
and for Zman179 i do have sense.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
A few inaccuracies exist, such as the “rail line” itself is not defunct, but the railroad company. (Defunct segments are between High Bridge and Phillipsburg, Easton and Bethlehem in PA, Lakehurst and Winslow Junction, Aldene and Elizabeth Midtown, Elizabethport and Bayonne, Communipaw and CNJ Terminal, plus West Side Avenue in Jersey City to Newark; the rest is relatively intact.) Also, the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail is not mentioned as being part of the current NJT passenger rail operations on former CNJ tracks.
Camelbacks are another inaccuracy – other railroads besides the CNJ had them (a few examples being the DL&W, the Erie, the Reading and the B&O).
Most of the article is about Frank Reilly’s book and the nostalgia it has inspired in CNJ fans and modelers around the country, so it seems. I wish the fellow good luck in his endeavors…
Rolling stock assignments for next month haven't been decided yet, AFAIK. My guess is that the R-68's will stay on the Q, with either R-40's on the B and R-68A's on the N/W or vice versa.
The R-143 is for the B. The R-62A is for the N.
There were four choices:
a) N,R
b) 1,9
c) L
d) 4,5,6
The survey results came out as follows:
Heterosexual men - 45% said 4,5,6
Heterosexual women - 32% said 4,5,6 and 30% said N, R
Bisexual men - 67% said 1,9
Bisexual women - 40% said N,R
Homosexual men - 45% said 1,9
Homsexual women - 100% said L
So, which line do you think carries the hottest people out of these lines, or write in a vote!
On the other hand... the Green Line, especially the C-branch (and the B-branch) full of BU kids and urban yuppies... they have no class, but they are 'hot'.
AEM7
Here in Chicago, hot just means very attractive which could be applied to a woman with no makeup and winter clothes on if she's good looking enough.
A linguistic rundown:
"She looks hot" just means the viewer finds her very attractive.
"I got her hot" means what it means.
"She's hot for me" might mean that she's acting somewhat slutty. But it might just mean she blushes when eye contact is made, hardly a slutty thing to do.
The 5 doesn't carry anyone most of the time, so the lex is out of the running.
Since you said it, it 'must" be true.
The 5 doesn't carry anyone most of the time, so the lex is out of the running.
Nah, I've "never" been crammed like a sardine on the 5 train.
< /sarcasm > : )
If that were true , you must be a dog .
"This is a Brooklyn Bridge bound 6 train. The next stop is Canal street. Watch out for the dragon clips"
You suck
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
Try this:
I ride it in the AM. I just shut my eyes and catch up on some lost sleep.
http://www.villagephotos.com/viewpubimage.asp?id_=7504225
Way to go...
First Place: (7) - why John didn't pick this, I have no idea
Second Place: (1/2/3/9)
Third Place: (A/B/C/D) - but only on Yankees home game days/nights
IND tiling (mostly at renovated stations) is an example of simple elegance. ;)
They're gonna tear it out and put in a track level discotheque.
Actually, even though you are being sarcastic, you might not be too far off. I am fully expecting some kind of electronic ad type monstrosity on the center platform. Recent events point to that, just food for thought.
Peace,
ANDEE
It's not the tiling that ain't great, it's the picture.
Peace,
ANDEE
Romance is there and love within your reach
when you make your best choice and ride the Sea Beach.
Judging from experience, I have better luck on the Brighton because more riders translates into more women. That is, if your tastes are outside of Italian women.
Not necessarily. Consider two morning LIRR trains from Ronkonkoma to Penn, the 7:06 and the 7:32. While the 7:32 is generally less crowded than the earlier train, it has a lot more chix because ridership is fairly evenly divided between the genders. The 7:06, in contrast, is a total sausage party.
CG
--Mark
Peace,
ANDEE
Ok, so the Poll asked riders about who is hot on what lines. But who has ever started up a conversation with a hottie and gone out on a date with them later on? That would be a cool poll to see just for fun.
This Is What I Live for...
Twice, both times on the Red Line. One ended up being someone who was mentally ill and an alcoholic and was living off disability. The other ended up being my girlfriend for six months before realizing that her completely ghetto lifestyle just did not match with mine (educated ghetto). She moved back to Pawtucket to be with her mom.
Never met anyone on the Green Line.
Actually, I would imagine that chix are most likely to ride in the conductor's car, especially after dark.
Yup, I did it once, with success. I wrote about it once in this post.
www.forgotten-ny.com
BTW, shouldn't the title be 'Subway Lines with the most attractive (or sexiest) people'? Someone can easy think you're refering to subway lines with the hottest people -- temperature wise, from overcrowding.
Yeah, any "PROFESSIONAL" person would.
(Yeah, any "PROFESSIONAL" person would.)
To avoid confusion, the initiator of the thread should have used the unambigous term "the nubility" to denote the higher class. But as to the answer to the question, at my age I no longer notice.
Heck, I'm probably a bit older than you, and I sure notice :)
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
that's a lie...
I don't care one lick one bit about your personal lifestyle choice so I'll treat you like any other Subtalker be they of colour, jewish or of New York descent.
ADVERTIZED is a strong WORD. ADVRITISED is not too strong a WORK.
... but you have made your feelings clear and there is nothing wrong with people acknoledging them in jest. Can't we all just be comfortable with who we are and not assume that others are always trying to "belittle" us. You don't see me taking other's anti-New jersey remarks personally.
YEAH! ARMPIT MIKE! Were you raised on chemical discharge?
Well, me too. I grew up in FORMOSA where I had a diet of Cheap Plastic Toys and PCBs (Polychlorinated biphenyls, not Printed Circuit Boards)
PCB's are used in manufacturing of electrolytic capacitors and, ironically, printed circuit boards. You need PCB to make PCB! It's a cleaning solvent, I think. I believe the PRR MU's had PCB's in their high voltage gear, and I think it was used for the very same purpose: cleaning.
AEM7
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
As Pirrmann will tell you, killfile doesn't work once you're inside the thread, it only works for the message index.
He has a surprising number of people in his killfile, people who you wouldn't expect to be in anyone's killfile. I only know because he mentions it all the time. It would be interesting to know what's in his killfile.
It's not surprising though, for a person who's so anti-social he would say:
"When I ride the subway, people PERIOD do not interest me. If I am at the railfan window, that is enough for me. And,as common sense dictates, establishing eye contact with the WRONG person (s) can lead to dire consequences. I prefer train-watching over people-watching anyday. The trains themselves are far more friendlier than most people."
Look, anybody who defends CC LOCAL: Do you seriously think somebody who writes something like that knows how to deal with people properly? So why is it surprising that people attack him?
I still think he's a troll.
I feel like I'm trapped in some horrible internet version of High Noon...or King Lear.
Or should I rephrase it; an often "off-topic", transit-related board.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
That said, a major part of the problem is that CCLOCAL has a very thin skin.
Back when CCLOCAL first got on SubTalk, I sent him an e-mail welcoming him.
CCLOCAL sent a nice reply, and we exchanged e-mails for a couple of weeks- until something upset him on the Talk and he sent me a nasty e-mail (I didn'r keep, BTW) along the lines of some of his posts.
We have not communicated since.
This was around the time he quit for the first time.
I suspect he'll be back with the same style.
To the community: If you don't like his postings, don't respond to him. period.
This is an Internet forum, not your living room. I believe you should conduct yourself somewhat formally while here since chances are, you haven't met most of the people on this board, nor do you know what might offend them.
Chicken! Bgock! Bgock! Bgock!
LOL! No wonder my friend can't get any action out of all those girls on the L line...they're all lesbians! ROFLMAO!
Regards,
Jimmy
I'm suprised that the percentage for the 1 and 9 isn't higher, given the way it serves the Village and Chelsea.
As for the L, I don't understand that at all.
Then again, I know a lot of women in East New York too, very few of them are lesbian.
Well, as a consolation prize here is a pic of drunk girls at 2AM on UMD's nightly circulator called the Circuit.
She isn't looking directly at the camera.
If I were there I would be checking "HIM" out..that is for sure. He is cute.!
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
I did once when the dealer had a 10 face up... drew a 4 :-D
Dunno, they all look legal to me.
More I think about it, that photo would work just great in a Levitra ad ... no wait, guys who look at it wouldn't need the stuff :)
Has anyone noticed that the guy in the picture looks either:
A) Pi$$ed
B) angry or the "what the hell?" look
C) jealous
I can't figure out which, after a few hours I guess i'll leave it to you guys to confer.
He looks bewildered by all the choices. Sort of like a dog in a room full of fire hydrants ... so to speak.
MUY BONITA.
AND the 6 below Grand Central.... boo-ya!
Also a bigger (if not better) Chinatown at Avenue U on the Beautiful Brighton Line.
For some reason, I'm not amazed by the Brighton line. =\
Perhaps sex appeal could somehow be used to promote travel by subway; after all it's used to sell almost everything else.
Airplanes aren't very good either, what with high-backed seats all facing in the same direction and a limited ability to move about.
Peace,
ANDEE
Okay, I guess I don't need much sleep!
And you have to claim a Bernard Goetz-type defense that he threatened to sodomize you. But it works better instead of kicking his ass, that kicking his marbles would elict a better response. :-)
BMT Boxcar. Here are the facts:
The car is not real or based on an actual prototype. It's an O gauge boxcar. The genius behind the artwork is our own Karl B. He and his lovely wife did the artwork and another gentleman (Seymour) did the actual silk screening. I think I have the last of the lot. Yes, it is one of my favorite pieces in my collection.
http://www.railfanwindow.com/gallery/Metrocards
www.railfanwindow.com
Speaking of which, I hope he's feeling better after Saturday night's laryngitis.
For the long term effect of all these folks songs "saving the fare" (which is lower in Boston than elsewhere), see the Boston Globe series "The Terrible T."
Peace,
ANDEE
Awaiting a fare verdict
If holiday travelers are any indication, the city should be pleased that its $1.9 billion AirTrain transit link to John F. Kennedy International Airport is showing better-than-expected ridership. "It's far and above what we wanted to see this early in the process," says a spokesman for the Port Authority of New York & New Jersey.
Officials expected 34,000 riders a day, but the Port Authority claims it has seen more than that number since the AirTrain began shuttling passengers to the airport on Dec. 17.
Skeptics remain concerned about the not-so-thrifty $5 fare a passenger pays just for the AirTrain leg, on top of a subway or Long Island Rail Road fare to Jamaica, Queens--the sum of which is comparable with the price of a ticket for a private bus going from Manhattan to the airport.
Gene Russianoff, staff attorney for the Straphangers' Campaign, says that although his transit activist group supported the train, it is opposed to the $5 fare. "Only time will tell if people will use AirTrain," he says.
The "paying" portion (Jamaica, Howard Beach) is probably in the neighborhood of 3,000 people per day, I think EWR's total for folks connecting to NJ Transit is 3,500-4000 daily, that does not include intra Terminal, Parking lot rides which make up the majority of EWR's 34,000 daily trips.
The Long Island Railroad Company transported farm wagons of potatoes on trains on January 5, 1885.
It was in a "useless information" email; I Googled long island railroad piggyback and found confirmation.
1) The TVMs on the platform here WONT sell a ticket to Philadelphia..only to Trenton [$14.75 OW...CHEAP!]...are there TVMs on the Trenton platform,or do you buy your SEPTA ticket on the train?
2) Are there any other options?
thanks in advance!
also the fare from Trenton into Center City is something like $7 OW correct?
Yes, there are TVM's at Trenton, but they are usually all out of service. Be prepared to buy a ticket on the train.
2) Are there any other options?
You might be able to buy a Ticket to philly in Newark or something.
The fare is $7 at all times.
I been in quite a few and many times I noticed that when a MU does BIE the train ( or at least the car I was in) jerked back and forth.
What can cause this? Wheelslip?
Does the M1/3s have a traction control system that manybe causing this?
Rush hour only:
J train to Bay Ridge,
Z train on the Sea Beach,
G train on the culver line to Kings Highway
Meanwhile, the "R" should terminate at Whitehall Street with the "W".
What do you think?
N Broadway
The Z train would operate in the counter-peak direction just after the am peak and just before the pm peak. It would be just about useless.
My memory of seeing Tug was indelibly burned in my mind as he jumped for joy after striking out Willie Wilson in the 1980 World Series. I was working in DC at the time, and after work, I jumped on a Greyhound bus to Philly at 2 AM to attend the Victory Parade on Market and Broad St. The streets of Center City Philly was totally mobbed, so mobbed that the only way to get around was to squeeze onto either an El or Broad St Subway train to get around, since the buses were not on any type of schedule. It was total chaos, with people hanging on to buses , trucks and even a couple of trolley cars screaming to the top of their lungs: "WE"RE NUMBER ONE!" and "PHILLIES". I saw him virtually up-close ands personal holding the Daily News headline, next to Pete Rose as the victory parade went down Market, then down Broad St. It wasd a sight I will never forget.
Please say a prayer for Tugger, his son Tim, their immediate family and the families he touched here in Philly and in NYC with the Mets.
GOD BLESS YOU TUGGER, AND THANKS. WE WILL MISS YOU.
Sorry for the OT post.
Chuck Greene
Tug's obit story was carried in today's Baltimore Sun.
Here's the link to the story on Sunspot Link
See, seek and you will find.
Those those famous three words became his trademark.
Bill "Newkirk"
Interestingly enough, Tug came to speak at my junior high school once. They used to hold a Father/Son Night once a year at the school I attended, and it included a baseball movie (World Series highlights from the previous Fall Classic) as well as a guest speaker. Tug spoke in January of 1968 (he spent the entire season at Jacksonville that year), then the following year the guest speaker was Ron Swoboda. One year later, it was Gene Michael. There was an autograph session afterwards, but the only time I stayed for it was when Michael was there. He autographed my 1968 Topps card with his image, only I gave it away with all of my other cards (including my Nolan Ryan rookie card - arrrggghhhhhh!!!!) when we moved to Connecticut.
I know this already, but does anyone else know how Tug got his nickname?
IMHO it's very touching that Tim McGraw embraced Tug as his biological father once he found out the truth, even taking his surname. It seems Tim was never told by his mother that he was adopted by her husband (and conceived during a one-night stand). Then he found his birth certificate and saw that his father was "Frank McGraw, professional baseball player." When he confronted his mother, she spilled the beans.
--Mark
Yes, I also know.
As a huge fan of Tim McGraw, I hope the best for him.
As a little side note, I did not find out about Tug's death until about an hour ago, where at school, the lockers were covered with posters reading RIP Tug McGraw. Truely a sad day.
Did you know that Tug once spent his last twenty dollars on a dog?
Did you also know he was the first Met pitcher to beat Sandy Koufax? Yes, Tug was a starter early in his career.
May he rest in peace.
A temporary fare control area and stairways are now highly visible. Artists rendering of the replacement headhouse is on display at MBTA Headquarters, 10 Park Plaza in Boston, if anyone is interested.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
#3 West End Jeff
FWIW, I've had a reasonable number of gay friends (M and F) over the years, from well before Stonewall. I knew they were gay (because they told me) and I didn't care. And GUESS WHAT, they knew I was straight, and they didn't hold it against me either.
As to some people on this board, my wife always said men were the biggest gossips.
I will not stand for gay bashing either.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
: ) Elias
Dave will do what he will, and this is his board, so it's up to him. Your announcement is worthless, and will not bring CC LOCAL back. And if he allows himself to be bothered by this kind of remarks, perhaps this place isn't for him. I have been driven from social circles before because of people's continual tauntings. In one case I had been driven from a relationship because of I was continually being told that I'm short (I'm 5'6"): by my ex-girlfriend (5'8") and her entire family. But in that case the relationship was not a good one and I should have left sooner.
CC LOCAL made his own decision to leave. It's his problem if he can't take being taunted. Maybe there is a better message board for him. Maybe not and he'll grow a thick skin and come back here. In my case, I am still 5'6" and I now date a new and wonderfully beautiful tall girl (5'11").
AEM7
There are people who irritate me here too (and I'm sure there are some I irritate) but I'd call them on their opinions or their statements or their politics--what point is there in picking on a person's size, appearance or friends?
But no offense taken on the troll thing--I explained I didn't intend to troll and you didn't dispute it--but thanks for the good feeling implied by the unneeded apology.
Well that's hardly saying much. You have like 3 or 4 backup relationships going on at any one time. It's like hot swapping drives in a RAID with you. You're the Rail Transit Cassanova. You're next date is only a token away.
Mike! You are so terrible! That is *SOOOO* not true! And my beautiful princess would be very upset with you if she saw that! Now I am going to curl up in a corner and cry, and maybe I will quit Subtalk too!!!!
You're only saying that cuz your backup relationship is like nowhere near where you live :-P Forest Park, IL, right?
AEM7
But after 27 years with my wife, as attractive as a backup relationship seems to my fading youthful ego, I'd be in big trouble if I needed one. ;-)
There was a line in a John B. Sebastian (Lovin' Spoonful fame) song back in the early 70's called "Magical Connection". That line goes "strangers on a train......they've arranged a meeting".
And what about that couple that recently flew in and recreated their chance meeting at LIRR Jamaica station, along with their children and grandchildren. Don't know why, but there is a lot of truth about meeting the right person on a train, when that does haoppen of course.
Bill "Newkirk"
Where would I be now, if every time someone called me a "Chink" or a "gook", I curled up and cried, and left the place for good?
AEM7
CC was sensitive to anything anyone said about him.
As far as jokes go, people need to lighten up...or society is filled with politically correct bullshit and nobody can say anything anymore. I've listened to years of Polish jokes...I mean come on...people need to lighten up for real.
These three Polish guys went to the ball game, and when they came back to their car after the game they realized that they'd locked it with the keys still inside. "No big deal," one of them says, "I can pop the lock with a coat hanger."
"That's too hard," says the second one. "Let me try to pick the lock."
The third one, the car's owner, says "Well let's decide on something soon. It's about to rain, and I really have to put the top up."
Chuck Greene
1. When he is baptized
2. When he is confirmed
3. When he is exectued.
What does an Italian machine gun sound like?
Ginny ginny, wop wop wop
Have you heard about the new Italian tank with five gears?
Four are reverse, and one is forward in case you are attacked from the rear.
You are right, a little humor helps a lot.
He went to see "Closed for the Winter."
http://www.rense.com/general42/ldle.htm
I'd like to see it stop also. I come here for FUN ... I hope everybody else does as well ... personal attacks are NOT fun.
But it's not a workplace, and this is what the First Amendment was made for.
What got CC Local the (IMHO) rather mild flaming following his disclosure wasn't the fact that he prefered men. Other subtalkers have come out of the closet and I have to say I've never seen them harrassed about it, there were some small skirmishes in some of the AIM chats, but I never witnessed them spilling over into here. What got CC Local the flaming after his disclosure was that he had placed himself in a compromising position after he came on this board and rather quickly proceded to make enemies. When a vast majority of his posts are complete fluff and filler, only loosely grounded in the topic and frequently repetitious, he's bound to make some enemies. Heck, I'm sure that, especially following my -considerably more on topic- disclosure that I don't care for older equipment there are a few subtalkers who wouldn't be sad to see me take a few weeks off.
Of course not only did CC Local make enemies, he made a lot of them, and he also managed to arouse the ire of some of the more vociferious subtalkers. These, of course, were the one's who would never miss an opertunity to look for a chink in his thin armor and just needle him about something, anything that they knew would piss him off, simply because his out of control posting drove them nuts. Now that he's got these enemies what does he do? He goes off and discloses the perfect thing for his enemies to needle him with, of course.
Given these circumstances, as I see them, I have a hard time feeling much sympathy for the late-lamented CC Local. He gave out as much frustration as he recieved, and there is no reason he should have been surprised that he got flamed for his disclosure.
In the end perhaps he should have just rolled with the punches. Going on a internet messageboard and not wanting to get flamed if kind of like going in the ocean and not wanting to get wet. This place will never be ideal for everyone, it is fundamentally a forum for arguments based on transit topics, if we all agreed on everything and found no posters objectionable then there'd be little point in coming here, wouldn't there? If you wanted the board like that, you should have come to subtalk in 1998, when topics like the MannyB (or even WillyB back then), 76th St Station, and the pending retirement of the Redbirds were original.
Now, if it's not too much trouble, could we please try to get back toward transit topics?
My Point :
While I'M a little sorry that someone felt as if they were forced to leave, his departure will make some posters happier.
The ONLY thing we should be discussing here at SubTalk is our common interest in subways and rail trainsit...NOT personal items.
I don't care what color anyone is, where they come from, what gender orientation they prefer, or what disabilities they may or may not have. We are all interested in subways and rail transit, and that should be number one, and the ONLY topic matter.
I've seen all too many posts in here worrying about items that should be very personal. They have NO business being discussed here. I don't come in here asking for pity because I am currently fighting colon cancer and going through chemotherapy on a weekly basis. I come here to learn somethign abotu subways and rail transit and maybe share my experiences of 53 years of the same.
You just HAD to throw that in, didn't you? Now you're no better than the rest of the people here who reveal extremely personal information and then get all pissed off when people use said information in posts. Good job.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Regards,
Jimmy
1) You do not run this website. unless I am totally mis-informed, you only participate here. Sis Dave put you in a policy making position? Did he authorize you to enforce your policies?
2) I'm not sure how many subtalkers thereare now. I'm sure that we come from very diverse places, have very different backgrounds, and have infinitely varied preferences. Those preferences extend into the area of sexuality. I'm quite sure that as a group we are
ASEXUAL
HETEROSEXUAL
BiSEXUAL
HOMOSEXUAL
MONOGOMOUS
PROMISCUOUS
AND ANY COMBINATION OF THE ABOVE.
Some of us are comfortable and open about our sexuality while others feel it's nobodies business except for their partner(s) and themselves. I'm sure that if this person didn't discuss his personal lifestyle here or to someone here, it would never have been divulged. Human nature is what it is so it's really quite simple;
If you want to keep your private life private, then don't discuss it here or with people who post here. If you don't disclose facts about your sexuality, no one will have anything to embarass you with.
NUFF SAID
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Tune in again tommorow for the continuing farce.....(cue organ music)...that is SUBtalk.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Heh, bet you can't resist replying with another of your pattent CCplosions.
#3 West End Jeff
And anyway, you know what's `is face'll pop back in under a different guise. Or we'll see "status of" posts from "a friend" or "a relative". So, the dude, once again, has made some type of pronouncement to someone, who posted it here, that he didn't wish to post here anymore. Uh huh. Let him go away and sulk. I was getting unnerved at the periodic bursts of INTERNET YELLING and "Nobody knows de trubble I see, nobody knows my sorrow" song and dance. I agree with the other guy: It's just words on some type of display screen. Enough with the drama.
#3 West End Jeff
Thank you!
*Hope I didn't forget anyone
Promises, promises.
Peace,
ANDEE
I hear tell that most of them like to be pissed on, big time. 8-)
Piss,
ANDEE
He got pissed off.
I thought you only gave Westcode44 private floggings.
Thank you for your open message, and for your courage and candor. I am in complete agreement with you. Our webmaster has been conspicuous in this matter by his absence. Perhaps a better remedy for the at-times rampant flamage would be for certain posters to be disabled, at webmaster's discretion, rather than shutting down the whole message board. Why should the civil suffer because of the uncivil ?
Nostalgiaddict
#3 West End Jeff
HOLY SHIT!!!!
You are f'in increadible! You are like a photo God!!!! No, you are THE photo God!
Hey, could you tone down your copyright notices...they are a little "loud".
So, if you "want" them, pay him for the rights to them.
At least they have part-time sidewalks. I thought they had all lost the use of their legs!
Very nice if you ask me
Seriously, unless a whole stretch is being replaced at once, replacement is generally done during the overnight hours while trains are operating on those tracks. The gangs can swap out a section of rail in between trains. In order for that to work, the rails need to be dropped off in advance, instead of being delivered as the replacement is being performed.
Most of the spare rail you see between the running rails is waiting to be installed, not deinstalled pieces. But I have seen pieces of old rail sitting in some spots for very long periods of time. That seems to be the exception, though.
Later, a work crew arrives. it will generally consist of about
30 blue hat track grunts, one white hat track supervisor, and
sometimes one yellow hat signal guy (you'll see)...
The blue hats wait for a train to leave, then they unbolt the
bad section of rail, knock off the bonds with a hammer and
track chisel or other suitable device. The rail now free,
all of the blue hats grab their rail tongs and lift the old section
out of the way. They lift the new section into place (it had
been dropped off by the work train, perhaps days earlier)
and bolt it up. Sometimes they need to crop or drill in the field,
which sucks, but hopefully everything lines up. Now the next
train (about 20 minutes later) can pass safely.
If the rail was a negative rail, then the bond is a heavy stranded
copper jumper welded to the side of the rail head. The blue hats
handle installation of the new bond. You'll see them grind the
rail surface clean with a gasoline-powered grinder and then
set up their Thermit jig and light it off. Produces quite a spark
show.
However, if that was a signal rail, and don't ask me why, ask
Dave B., then the yellow hat gets involved. He gets out his
hand-powered Raco track drill and drills a small hole (1/2" ??)
through the web of each rail, then pounds in a much smaller
jumper consisting of two stranded conductors in parallel, terminating
on tapered plugs. The plugs get pounded into the rail and
make a pretty good "cold weld" connection.
The old rail is left in the gauge. Whenever the work train comes
around again, it picks it up. Sometimes that takes a long time.
As long as the rail is left resting level in the trough, not
much can go wrong. Yes, dragging equipment from a car could
catch it, but usually whatever is dragging will snag a stop mechanism,
trash grate or what not.
Of course, if when the rail was set down it was left resting
unevenly, e.g. one end was on top of a conduit, or a bag of spikes,
or a joint bar, etc., then dragging equipment has a very good
chance of catching the high end of the rail, since it is now
above the running rail head level. I really doubt that a power
bond alone sticking up would catch anything. Those bonds are
stranded and not very rigid if only supported on one end ... you
could easily bend one out of the way with one hand.
I'm assuming that this kinda thing would happen late nights or weekends, right? What if, say, rail on the southbound local track on 8th ave needs replacing? Since at that time the A is running local, with (IIRC) 20 min headways, what if something goes awry in the replacement and more time is needed? Do they just send the A down the express tracks at the interlocking before the work and tell the passengers waiting for local service along those local stops they're SOL? Or do they hold the train as close as it can get to the work zone under the understanding that it will be a minimal delay?
Probably depends on the situation.
Say you have the GO running with S/B A over the F from W4 to Jay. If the problem occurs between 42 and W4, you can't reroute As over the express, as the S/B A line south of W4 is out of service. This leaves customers SOL.
However I'm unless its an emergency I'm sure the TA has some sort of plan in such cases. Like "No replacing rails on the S/B local track during this GO".
--Mark
Still he must not have been going very fast to begin with... that rail looks like it could have ripped the bottom of a car off like a can opener.
Elias
On the Subway.
Between stations; type II modified; those piles of splinters in one of the pictures are the remains of the longer stone ties.
http://atsf.railfan.net/snippets/accidents.html
"Lost His Trousers--Narrow Escape of a Man in a Railroad Wreck".
Combination car 2408, which came in on train number 72 last night, was a picture, says the Emporia (Ks.) 'Republican'. It went east on train 64 this morning for the Topeka shops. This car was on a mixed run from Wellington, (Ks.) and while we are not in possession of all the facts, we learn the car was struck by a train. The freak part about it was it drove a rail up through the car. Sitting in one of the seats were two men, and it tore one man's pants off, but otherwise he was not much injured. The rail went up through the 'possum belly', or cellar, which is on all combination cars and is for the purpose of storing switch chains and oil cans. It took one side of the oil can clear through on the end of the rail, fastening to the top of the coach. The rail was still sticking in the car and could not be removed, and will go to the shop that way. Otherwise the car was not much damaged, but consider the luck of the man who lost his pants.
(Follow-up, SAME ISSUE & PAGE, perhaps more accurately reported)
Railroad wrecks sometimes produce curious effects in destruction or damage of rolling stock and material generally. One of the most interesting sights seen around the Topeka shops lately was on exhibition Thursday. Combination passenger and baggage car 2408 stood near the coach shop, pierced by an ordinary, 62-lb. steel rail, about 20 feet long. Entering through the tool box underneath the car, it went through an iron bucket, passed upward diagonally through the floor, a seat of the car, and stopping after bursting the ceiling of the coach. The rail lay on one side where it came up through the floor, was slightly sprung. It is supposed that while the car was passing over the rail, one end being loose from the fastenings, was lifted, and the velocity of the train moved it upward to the position it still occupies. A rail that plays this kind of prank is known to railroad men as a "snakehead", the term having come into use years ago when rails were of wood, with an iron strip running along the top. Then such accidents were comparatively frequent, for it was easy for the straps to become lose at one end. Soon after the completion of the Chicago extension, a similar accident to this one occurred and several passengers were hurt. A few years ago a work train, carrying a load of rails near Wakarusa, (Ks.) dropped one and before the train could be stopped the rail was driven up through the way car.
Removed rail has the remains of the welded straps used for continuity still attached - it isn't a simple butt end as on new rail. My guess (and it is only a guess, as I don't know anything more than the rest of you about this incident) is that one of those straps was bent up and snagged on something on the bottom of the car.
The first photo in the album linked to by this SubTalk post shows one of those straps sticking out from the other end of the rail.
1) Type 1 track is illustrated, but the track in the area of
the accident was apparently type 2 or 2M
2) The caption claims that the rail was spiked down. That is
very, very unlikely.
A GUESS would be that somehow the rail had bent, broke, or somehow raised above the railheads, or one of the cars that rolled past it had dangling equipment that hit it, grabbed it, smashed it into something and forced the tail end to rise - with 1-1/2 TONS of non-moving iron, it had to be one HELL of a piece of something dragging to have done that and one HELL of a loud thud when it hit it. No surprise that a motorperson saved the day by putting the train in the hole and preventing a FAR worse outcome ... but something totally off the wall had to have happened there - "dead sticks" in the gauge tend to STAY there undisturbed by trains rolling past ...
And this foto would imply two rails entered the car, stacked on top of each other. Perhaps the rails were laid next to each other and on top of one another.
If that ROW shown is where it happened, I wouldn't rule out vandalism just yet. On British Rail in the 80s, there was an incident where a rail was angled upwards in such a way as to pierce an oncoming train directly. It was stacked on top of a spare tie. It did penetrate a train. It was the result of a fired track worker.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
No, but you can blame it on the cars that REPLACED them!
Has this ever been confirmed?
There have been a number of times where some has indicated there will be an equipment swap yet no one is willing to provide a viable source.
That has been one of the problems here. Many individuals post comments about service changes, equipment changes etc. They always say "a reliable source" but will never provide any credible evidence to back up the claim.
Whenever I post something that I read or heard I always indicate exactly where I got the information from. If I get information which I have a doubt about I will so indicate.
But, of course not. Silly boy. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Rolling stock is a factor in service, but the R62A's are just fine. I doubt they are causing the 7 to become 'worse' as you claim.
Every single day, there has been no trains from QBP-Times Square at some point.
You mean weekends only, up until today, which I experienced. It will all be over once rush hour comes around, which just started 15 minutes just now.
As of right now, trains are only going as far as QBP. I understand that the Times Square station is being rehabbed but c'mon what gives?
And those R62As there has been more breakdowns on those things than there are people in NYC.
I'd like to see proof of that claim.
I sure hope that the 7 swaps cars with the 2 as planned in March of 2004. Get these R62A things the heck out of Corona.
Prove it.
As for bringing even newer model cars to the Flushing line, maybe in the long run they will perform as good or better (or not) but in the short term they will probably do worse.
Most of the problems of the Flushing line have to do with its isolation from the rest of the IRT. If the way ahead is blocked then there is nothing to do but short turn the trains. Only new infrastructure will fix that not new trains.
You said it.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
You're being way too kind. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
I take back what I said about the Flushing line problem being spinoffs from scheduled work. It's rolling stock!!! The R-62 I tried to board this morning overshot the Vern-Jack station headed into the tunnel. They sent the V-J exiters back two cars and keyed the door on the third car, terminated the train (thank god it stopped) at GC and discharged everybody. "Brake problems."
Maybe I shouldn't blame the 62's, and I'm not superstitious enough to believe the ghosts of the Redbirds are destroying their successors, but can it be that the problems on the line are wrecking the wrolling stock?
Or, possibly, "excuse for T/O problems."
Except for the 76th Street stuff, which is in a Twilight Zone of its own.
N Bwy
I'm not up on my NYCTA mechanics, but what does a subway fleet have to do with the rehab of a specific subway line? They've been doing that same GO for years now.
And those R62As there has been more breakdowns on those things than there are people in NYC.
I sure hope that the 7 swaps cars with the 2 as planned in March of 2004. Get these R62A things the heck out of Corona.
My 2 cents: The R62A's made the 7 better. Besides, Corona redbirds suck.
Dave
Class of 96
Off with their heads! After all, this is the most important thing in the world and woe to anyone who doesn't know the difference! My G-d, what is wrong with those people?
{voice dripping with sarcasm}
til next time
The youth of today are the leaders of tomorrow.
til next time
Regards,
Jimmy
Same with the obstructions on the right-of-way for the 3rd track on the Jamaica El. Obviously those buildings weren't always there. But where were they before? Surely they perform an essential function?
96 st 10,631,200
Cathedral Pkwy - 110 st 4,172,774
116 st - Columbia Univ 4,127,702
137 st - City College 4,003,597
103 st 3,969,126
157 st 2,649,053
181 st 2,535,364
231 st 2,451,142
145 st 2,443,775
125 st 2,056,685
191 st 1,979,623
Dyckman st 1,960,113
242 st - Van Cortlandt Park 1,684,036
207 st 1,254,962
225 st - Marble Hil 1,141,915
238 st 788,883
215 st 428,117
Yes, that's what the 2002 book shows for 2000. For 2002 it shows 6,229,701, an increase of 9.5%.
I don't know if he's on the schedule for the Naugatuck RR though... they have hosted him in the past. According to the Thomas website they will post the 2004 schedule on 01 February.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks for the info.
Do you have a link? I checked the official Thomas site and didn't see anything about the 2004 schedule in the US.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There is a group, Friends of the Valley RxR, that keeps moving the stop pole North. It's a little north of East Haddam now, i.e. chop some brush, replace a few ties, move the stop pole
So, Northward HO !
At one point they were actively seeking freight jobs on the line, and had some involvement in the NH to Middletown line, but I think they have backed out of both such involvements.
Middletown to Hartford and NH to Middletown are P & W.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I forgot about that one; I gave it to someone as a birthday present a few years ago. IIRC, it was based on 1414 or 1425.
The problem of replicating the lure of Thomas in the streetcar field is that other than Fontaine Fox (and a brief Baltimore kiddie show in the 1950's), nobody ever did a Thomas The Tank Engine type story for streetcars that caught on.
Only the long time trolley fans have any connection to the Toonerville Trolley. As you mentioned Sprague has the wall, BSM's late Clyde Gerald had a man-sized carboard (wearable) TT, which was a fixture in Baltimore parades when it accompanied our horsecar, 129. Clyde left us in 1997, and his TT left before him.
The other problem, assuming the big one could be solved, is how do build it so the non-standard gauge people (BSM and PTM (aka Arden) could use it as well. Instantly adjustable streetcars don't seem to exist and the engineering problems to do one might be impossible.
It's nice to dream about it, though.
Actually, the engineering issues are rather simple, albeit not inexpensive. Some modern low-floor technology uses individually-mounted wheels with stub axles, one motor per axle; these axles could be mounted on sliding platforms attached to the car body that are then adjusted to the gauge of the railway where the car is being operated. This wouldn't be suitable for high-speed interurban-style operation, but I don't think that would be the goal here. After all, what's BSM's maximum speed - 5 mph? And we don't run much over 22-23 mph at Branford, except with the RT equipment.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Oh, come now.
That's yard speed.
Speeds on the line are around 25-30 mph for the older cars, 35-40 for the newer hand brake cars and 40+ for the Witt/PCC's.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The rule is a stop before a facing switchpoint.
Northbound, there are no facing points before the spring switch at 28th Street. A stop in 28th for the switch for the passing siding, then nothing until the point for the end of double track.
Then a stop for the spring switch (facing S/B), then the North Avenue (electric) switch. If going into the yard, a final stop at the entry switch to the yard. (The rule allows no switchpoint stops in a ladder providing all ladder switches are set correctly for the route.
I have wrapped our big open, 1164, while headed northbound once past the spring switch. She will do 45 (with her WH306CV motors (50HP each) and rides smooth as silk, very surprising for a car with Brill 22 Maximun traction trucks.
You work our line, you learn when to go slow and when to go fast.
Branford has a couple of hands on exhibits which many of the young visitors seem to like. Our man Fred has been able to do quite a lot with the limited amount of space he had to work with.
Jeremy
Day out with Thomas is best described as organized chaos.
The first time IRM had Thomas, they pulled in more revenue than their entire budget has projected for the entire year.
What I love is that most of them (yes Viginia there is more then one), is that they need a source of steam behind it so it can huff & puff like it was a real steam engine.
At this point, we get more visitors over our five-day Thomas event than during then entire rest of the year (by a factor of about 4:3). But it takes a helluva lot of people, time, and money to run one of these events - your average trolley museum is going to have trouble running Thomas simply because you need a good-sized train to pull! A place like Branford or Seashore can seat a maximum of perhaps 100-200 people in a single train of RT cars; IRM's Thomas train this year had about 700 seats. When Orange Empire ran its first Thomas event this year, they actually had to buy coaches specifically for this purpose.
Frank Hicks
Frank Hicks
Koi
By the way, the reason there was no Newsday masthead was because my dad used to get leftover newspapers from a storeowner friend of his who used to return the top masthead part of the front page for credit!!!
The only unreconstructed elevated line the BMT redid for 10-foot cars was the Fulton Street Line. The side platforms and physical structure made the conversion mainly an issue of platform trimming and wayside furniture relocation.
Since the BMT considered 10-foot cars to be the wave of the future, and the Bluebirds were to be the elevated car of the future,it would have been interesting to see how they would have dealt with the Myrtle Line when the time for new equipment came.
I meant to say:
I don't know if the Gap problem in this age would have meant that the Myrtle El would be running as a Broadway to Jay Shuttle, as opposed to a Metro to Jay Street line in the more recent years.
The Myrtle L (with the Lex) turned from west on Myrtle to North on Adams. A spur switched into the lower Sands Street complex in order to allow service over the BB. The main part of the line continued up Adams, where westbound trains turned west onto Sands Street, entered the huge train shed of the upper Sands Street terminal, looped south back into the terminal, ran east on High Street and turned back south on Adams.
I'm sure modern New Yorkers would consider the complex a monstrous blight, but to railfans and industrial architects it was a magnificent thing. I think seeing and riding through the complex must be the one single thing I regret most having missed.
Totally!
Totally in agreement with you there.....
have you ever seen any Sands Street terminal views of the following -
The El structure on Adams St. that continued north to turn into the upper level?
Interior views of Sands street besides the one in Greller's Brooklyn Elevated book - Especially interested in views of the loop platforms on the upper level.
No recollection of that at all.
Interior views of Sands street besides the one in Greller's Brooklyn Elevated book - Especially interested in views of the loop platforms on the upper level.
I don't have Greller's book. What does it show? I have seen one, maybe two, pictures of the upper level platforms
- Were these published in books/magazines or are they in private collections?
The picture in Greller's book is taken on one of the two lower level island platforms, several people are waiting for a train and I'm guessing that it's looking west.
In one side of the photo a staircase to the upper level from this platform is visible. IIRC, there is only a chain strung between the railings at the bottom, none of that chain link fence fortress stuff you'd see today.
The angle is taken looking up so I think the glass windows at the top of the structure are visible as well, but the field of vision is narrow, so it's not as though anything can really be made out of the upper level platform structure.
- Were these published in books/magazines or are they in private collections?
Not published, IIRC.
You can get a wonderful if brief view of Sands Street from the perspective of a trolley rider in a VHS tape from Brian Merlis' brooklynpix.com
There is a black and white movie leaving Park Row, going over the bridge and approaching Sands St. It then cuts to leaving Sands Street towards the Brooklyn els and the view is from the rear platform.
The tape also includes two color films from the mid 1940's.
One is a short clip taken just before abandonment of the same scene. It begins with a somewhat dark, but interesting color street level view of Park Row terminal. The film only includes a front end view across the bridge and approaching Sands St. Then the film cuts to a clip of BU's entering into Sands St. taken from the platformm and then cuts to the return trip back across the bridge to Manhattan.
The second film clip is from a camera vantage point that is above and to the south of the whole Sands St. complex, probably taken from the window of a fairly high building in the area.
Myrtle or Lexington Trains enter and leave the station, a couple of trolleys leave the station or ramp up to it.
I looked at the picture in Greller's book again last night (did not think to write the page number down - it is maybe page 110).
The glass windows that can be seen are at the lower platform level only. And you cannot tell whether you are looking east or west.
The stairs don't have a chain, and do have those large wooden barrier gates from the period (yeah, when you haven't looked at a photo in awhile, your memory does start to play tricks).
The other thing about the staircase was that it led to a connecting walkway between both the unloading and loading platforms on the upper level (so it would have been at an intermediate level between the lower and upper platforms?).
This connecting walkway ran above the center pair of lower level tracks. There was a staircase on each lower level platform, that went up half a flight to a short landing, and then to another half flight that right angled up and out to meet this walkway over the center tracks.
*Concord Village is the small apartment complex between Adams St/Brooklyn bridge entrance ramp, Tillary, and Jay sts. 175 Adams is right next to the A/C High St Brooklyn Bridge station.
The book is The Subway by Stan Fischler
You can see the structure of the upper level crossing in mid-back of the pic.
Sure has. I recall the area being chopped up just about the time they put the BQE through there, which is late 1950s.
In one of the weirdnesses of citythink the trackless trolleys which ended at High Street-BB station had been cut back a good distance because of the BQE construction. The wire was restored and the TT service restored for a few months, only to be discontinued permanently.
The Myrtle L originally had only a stub terminal on Sands St (upper level). The Sands St complex evolved. The upper level was converted into a loop around 1893. The stub terminal was extended into a loop, that returned to Adams St via High St. The private ROW, south of Concord St, that connected to the lower level for travel to Park Row was probably built around 1898.
Without dwelling on the loss of the Myrtle El, it may have been better if instead of renovating both Hewes St and Lorimer St like they did, it may have been better to abandon and remove both stations, and build a new one at Union Ave and Broadway, allowing a little "hub" to be made there, and a free in system transfer. It would have been very easy, as side platform stations require no track realignment. Hewes is very close to Marcy anyway.
Has a transfer ever been seriously proposed?
I've heard mullings on it here before, but I don't know if the MTA has ever acknowledged the idea. Remember; the G is routinely missing from the MTA's performance reports and MTA management would love to make believe the line doesn't even exist. Add to that the general disregard for the Broadway elevated line (Sure they have new stations, but the tracks linking to 6th Ave are ignored), and you have two lines the MTA has no interest in improving.
How difficult is it to spell Hewes and Lorimer?
Copied from elsewhere
That gem was made well over a year ago and is, thakfully, still posted in many TA employee areas.
Peace,
ANDEE
Not a TREAT a THREAT.
Peace,
ANDEE
Something that exists only in the mind of Qtraindash7.
Peace,
ANDEE
.....Drooling.....
avid
Regards,
Jimmy
Jimmy ;)
Well then, how about an R34... will that one run?
: ) Elias
Regards,
Jimmy
Regards,
Jimmy
Regards,
Jimmy
Jimmy
:)
...Crying....but you are talking about the lemon of all lemons, the R16!!!!! "Operational" and "R16" can bearly be said in the same sentence!
Seriously though, it should be possible. There should be more than enough redbird parts left to get the R30 working. After all, I think there were already a lot of R30 parts given to the IRT Redbirds after the R30's were retired. They had similar parts. I would assume the R16 wasn't that far off either.
I would give anything for a R10-R30-R16 fantrip! Bring them back to the Eastern Division, and I may have to go somewhere to be alone for a while!
...not to mention a few panes of glass missing in some of the doors.
**********************************************************************
Anyway, I don't get this whole strike thing. Amtrak got its budget, shouldn't they save this till next year?
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df01052004.shtml#Amtrakstrike
Regards,
Jimmy
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HA HA, made you look, they didn't REALLY resort to Canibalism, but with a 16 hour delay in the infamous Donner pass, the irony was just too thick to ignore. Still, 16 hours cooped up in stationary stainless steel box is enough to drive anybody to madness.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df01052004.shtml#CZ
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Hey, progress is progress. More seats in service goes right to Amtrak's bottom line.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df01052004.shtml#Superliner
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Well, since you viturally need a criminal background check each time you fly I am not surprised that rail travel with its 30 second check in is gaining in popularity.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df01052004.shtml#Amtraknumbers
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Meh, its just a D/F Travelogue hi-liting the wonders of Canada.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df01052004.shtml#Canadian
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
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And do we know why SEPTA has gone to shit? Yes we do. Before the towers were replaced with the new centralized system SEPTA had a 96% on-time rating. The new system, which indicently was designed for rapid transit, not railroads, crashes frequently and overloads the dispatchers. When BROAD was open trains went from 30th St to Suburban with nary a delay. Now EVERY train gets stuck on signals somewhere between those two points. All this so SEPTA could cut a few dozen operator positions.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df01052004.shtml#SEPTA
This better be a joke.
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Does anyone have any info on this line? Is it just some podunk secondary track or a main line with signals?
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df01052004.shtml#CSX
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Woo hoo!! Finally, the court gets one right. Hopefully, railroads will use this as a reverse loophole, using federal funds to exempt a large % of their crossings from liability. The fact that any state could ever even think about blaming the RR in grade crossing incidents just shows how much our tort system is screwed up.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df01052004.shtml#Supreme
I think there's also an "express" sign.
1972-73
Meet 8 A.M. 8- car marker 86th st station 'RR' line R27,30,42.
Whitehall St Ferry Term, (sugar cane was sold here)and all sort's of stuff.
Ferry over to St. George 'riding the rear' (John F. Kennedy) boat.
S.I.R.T. TO Totenville (Old Car's)
Back to 'Grasmere'
R7-to 95th St-Bklyn G.M. 6200, or 8800. Hoping for a Flxible 5700 (never get one)
THANK's for the memories!!!!
It's not free if you board the train at St. George. The T/O's window with reflective sheet is the biggest disapointment in the entire system.
>>>>As odd as the SIR is, it's a nice place. Every railfan should pay a visit because it is so different from anything else you'd see in the subway. I highly reccomend it! Go in the summer though, that ferry can get brutal!<<<<<
Staten Island is probably one of the few areas in New York City that would make me move out of Jersey. It feels and looks more like Jersey than Queens or Brooklyn. I agree that you should go in the summer and take your bicycle with you. Last summer, I got off the last stop of the SIR and rode back to St. George. It was a jungle getting back!
Except they went during break, so they won't have to take remedial classes at "P.S. 248." :)
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Well, it seems that Amtrak is once again ruining another interlocking and calling it progress. Moreover, this report leaves more questions than it answers. You'll have a chance to read this heavily biased report, but first here's my take. First, they replaced the old "lever" machine with a new computer based system. Why? Is the computer homehow better? Not really. They probably just wanted to remove a leverman position at the tower. Now METRA and Amtrak riders can experiance the joy of waiting while the computer reboots due to one of many frequent crashes. While parts of an old lever frame might break down, you'll never have a complete system failure as long as the juice is running and if there is a power failure the boot up time is 0.
They also removed the old PRR white PL dwarfs. Well, first the interlocking is a mix of those and US&S S-8 CPL's which were newly installed back in the 80's and are continuing to be installed at the CNW terminal 2 blocks away. Are they being removed? Why not just install LED arrays in them and save some $? Why not keep using something that the engineers can actually see.
Finally, they got rid of the "obselete" air switches (which are stil sold by US&S and were just installed new by PATH in the WTC pit) with slow acting electric jobbers. Sheesh, terminals with double slips and whatnot is the perfect place for pneumatics. You just need one large compressor unit instead of 63 seperate electric motors. They are preferred by maintainers, simpler of operation and faster to fix. You also have a reserve of switching power in the event of a power failure. Idiots, sacrificing quality just to save a buck. Enjoy your delays METRA riders.
PS: Don't confuse this LAKE ST tower with the CNW LAKE ST tower 2 blocks away.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df01052004.shtml#Lake
Cutoff
Another Cutoff
I've had it
The last one is hilarious... Because I "voice my frustration" at the end! Not in the door blocking way... but funny nonetheless.
If he's uncooperative, try a different train.
Peace,
ANDEE
Or maybe it was just terrorism paranoia...a common feature these days (:o(
A PERFECT guise for recording announcements (even works in a sitting position).
Plenty of Hip Packs at your local Flea Markets or Mystical Chinatown.
But why was the station identification message cut off?
And I REALLY got lucky again, had an R32 F train going back to 179st. One guy from the tower said "why you bringin that old car from Parsons-Archer here?" to the T/O. Well I felt like saying because the R32's are way better, but kept my mouth shut. Anyway, some pics of the train:
They're starting work at 59th st IND, but even though I held my cam steady against a pillar, this was the result:
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
2. Complaints about posts by SubTalkers who've been kill-filed. Boy, that Eggman is some jerk. I'll have to auto-kill-file myself.
3. Complaints about OT posts. (Infinite loop alert! Hit CTRL + Break)
Peace,
ANDEE
You too?
>>>2. Complaints about posts by SubTalkers who've been kill-filed. Boy, that Eggman is some jerk. I'll have to auto-kill-file myself. <<<
Heypaul once tried this to himself, said it was the best time he ever had on subtalk.
Peace,
ANDEE
You're not alone !
Bill "Newkirk"
IAWTP.
Doesn't take a rocket surgeon to figure that one out.
BTW: The moderator shut down the chat room when it got out of hand.
I shut it down because there were only 4 people in it...someone else revived it, but he wasn't the moderator, I was...I don't remember kicking anyone out...
Or are they acoryphic? Or anarchegic?
I love your handle !
YOU ARE THE EGGMAN ! THEY ARE THE EGGMEN ! I AM THE WALRUS !
GOO GOO GOO JOOB !
(background jumble of annoyed SubTalkers)
Save yourself the hangover...the White Castles alone will do it for ya. Love them Belly Bombers!
Bill "Newkirk"
What, 12 volts doesn't qualify as Lo-V? ;)
Peace,
ANDEE
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Far too many.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Elias
http://www.straphangers.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=004925
And he is right - we always thought MTA signs were bad.
To see the picture directly:
http://www.beaconschool.org/~crivera/14067.jpg
But panel 1, as was posted here a couple of days ago is CLEARLY a sign of "priority seating for those who NEED V1agra and actually hit REPLY to spam they receive." :)
But that sign IMHO, was too much different, different colours and borders etc, so that I would think that they have more than one series of signs out there.
Save this part of the seat for people with colostomy bags.
Elias
P.S.: I feel no evidence of a headache today.
Peace,
ANDEE
Due to signal problems near 36th St/4th Av, Coney Island bound n, r and w trains are experiencing 5 - 10 minute delays through the area until further notice.
There is no "STILLWELL AV" on the R46 signs, last I recall, it was just "CONEY ISLAND," even after the reprogramming.
This happened on December 27th, 2003 when it happened at Rockaway Ave station on the #3 line in Brooklyn. A innocent woman was struck by a fallen sandbag at street level from the station mezzanine.
>>>A spokesman for the Transit Authority did not know if any construction was underway on the platform, and said the agency was unaware of the incident. <<<<
Nice. They don't know if there were workers on that platform? Come on! They just don't want to admit guilt. An accident of this magnitude and they didn't know it happend? Come on!
When your teenage daughter go out with her friends, do you know where she is every moment of that evening? If you were told that she was going to a club, and then you found out later that someone was shot dead in that club that night, do you know if your daughter was at the crime scene when it happened?
UNLESS SOMEONE TELLS US THE DANGER OR MISTAKE, IGNORE IT.
PS: Did anyone ever change the LED display coming off the escalators at Grand Central station, main booth from Pershing Square entrance inside GCT? As of last night, it STILL reads "PAY FOR 10, GET 11, ONLY WITH METROCARD"
So there is nop blame to be laid at the TA's door step related to some PR flack not knowing if there is construction there. And even if there was NOT any construction there, there could well have been some sand bags left over from an ealerier construction, or some may be stacked up there awaiting use at some nearby construction site.
And oh yeah, by the way, are there not sand boxes along the el for fire fighting purposes (or whatever) and might not this sand be in bags for easy transport? It would be a simple matter for a vandal to take a bag, and toss it over the side of the el somewhere.
Finally... This incident happend on the street. There is no reason to expect the TA to know about it, at least not very quickly. Responders on the street have the girl's conditon foremost in their minds, and an investigation into the event would likely enough be delayed, perhaps by days.
"A sand bag fell of the el, you say, ok people toss things from up there all of the time, not much of a chance that we'd ever catch them."
Telling the TA is a low priority among people on the ground.
Elias
Sandbags don't just appear from the sky (we hope). This thing was either improperly secured, accidentally dropped or intentionally dropped.
In the first of those two scenarios, the TA will be found negligent and have to pay. In the third, they'll likely be found to be partially responsible and as the only deep pocket (unless the thrower is both caught and wealthy) they'll still have to pay. (and, yes, the amount they have to pay will be considerably higher given that she lived for another 10 days -- as you noted dying instantly is far better both emotionally and financially than spending 10 days paralyzed).
The TA should already be calculating how much they're going to offer to pay. The only way this thing ever sees the inside of a courtroom is if the TA or the woman's family hire an incompetent attorney.
CG
I wonder why the wheels didn't get her first.
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
I smell a massive lawsuit against MTA and NYCT.
Nah... somebody "tossed" the bag, TA cannot be responsible for all of the jerks who pay to ride a train. They woould have to find the culprit.
Elias
Only if the culprit brought the bag into the system with him. If they found it on TA property and tossed it then the TA bears some responsibility for having improperly stored or secured the sandbag.
Liability in New York State is joint and several. If you're 1% responsible for an accident you can be held 100% financially responsible -- especially if a more responsible party either can't be found or doesn't have enough money to pay.
Chances are that the real culprit in this case isn't sitting on a couple million dollars. So the TA needs to break out their checkbook.
CG
I also have a BMT World's Fair Subway map, which was pre-1940, and it indicates that there were several free transfer points with the IRT, including Lexington-59th Street, Union Square and Times Square.
Here is a photo of where the straight section went up, and the M curves out to the left to join the J at grade (from 1991) :
Here is a photo of the interlocking between the J and the M at grade in 1979 (the same as today) :
N Broadway Line
How about Rogers - the 5 train has to cross in front of the 3 train.
It isn't very different from the turnoff to the Dyre line, except that the merge there isn't a bottleneck, while Rogers is a bottleneck for the entire West Side.
Flatbush Ave riders won't accept a West-side only service plan.
5 trains to and from Flatbush eat up capacity on the West Side without actually serving the West Side. There are six southbound 5 trains passing through Midtown between 8 and 9am that go to Flatbush. If those six trains instead ran to Utica or New Lots, there would be room for six more West Side trains.
In the morning rush, southbound 2/3 trains are more crowded than northbound 4/5 trains, and they serve many more people (not to mention that many northbound 4/5 passengers don't much care if their train originates at Flatbush or at Utica, either because they're coming from points north of the merge or because their usual routine is to take whichever train comes first and transfer at Franklin or Nevins).
Why do you think the (relative) few who might be affected in Brooklyn have veto power over a 25% service boost on one of the busiest lines in Manhattan and the Bronx, all so they don't need to make an easy cross-platform transfer? (I wish I had cross-platform access to the 4/5! At best, I have one cross-platform transfer plus one walking transfer.)
There's nothing wrong with a transfer, certainly not a cross-platform transfer.
No different than 6 riders mostly wanting express service at E 125th or 1/9 riders mostly wanting express service at W 96th. The latter two sets of riders are forced to change because capacity demands it. If capacity demanded it, the Flatbush line riders would also be forced to change at Franklin.
If the 5 & 3 were to swap Brooklyn terminals, how would that increase West Side service?
The only solution to this problem is to build the extension along the Bay Ridge LIRR and turn trains south of the station, thus increasing it's capacity to 26-30 TPH.
Eliminate the 5 from that short segment of track and the bottleneck goes away, with only the 2 and 3 having to share 30 tph.
In effect, each 5 train eats up a capacity slot on both the East Side and the West Side, but only provides service to the East Side. Move the 5 to New Lots and the West Side and the East Side can each run 30 tph.
Nobody suggested moving the 3 to Flatbush. Not only would that not allow for any more service, it would leave Nostrand and Kingston with no service at all.
Yes, New Lots would be overserved, but that's where the efficient terminal happens to be. Turn about 20 tph at Flatbush (all 2's), turn about 20 tph at Utica (all 4's), and turn about 20 tph at New Lots (all 3's and 5's).
It's not up to the Nostrand passengers. If the best systemwide service plan, taking into account the needs and desires of all passengers, calls for the elimination of direct Lex-Nostrand service, then direct Lex-Nostrand service has got to go. A handful of people on one line have no right to hijack the system -- especially not when the issue at question doesn't even reduce their quantity of service.
Of course, many of them opt for the cross-platform transfer anyway if they expect it to save them time. I will again report the ride I took about two years ago on a southbound 5 in the afternoon rush. It was directly behind a crowded 4, so it was mostly empty -- the entire way down. (There were only a few other passengers in my car.) When we got to Franklin, a crowded 2 was pulling out -- hmmm, I wonder where those passengers came from! Despite that, the 2 was held at the interlocking and the empty 5 was sent first -- an East Side train in the process of delaying and reducing capacity on the West Side. The passengers on that 2, many of whom were coming from the East Side, would have preferred if that 5 didn't go to Flatbush at all.
Good luck.
I, however support the idea of rebuilding the Rogers St junction and extending the line past the Flatbush Ave station to increas capacity so that 2 & 5 service remains unchanged except for headways.
In other threads I have previously suggested as a less expensive alternative that they build local-express crossover switches either between Hoyt and Nevins or between Nevins and Atlantic so that Nostrand trains could all be on the local track and New Lots trains on the express track before they hit Rogers. Someone else, in this thread suggested doing something similar around Grand Army Plaza, where the Brighton line leaves.
The extent of cooperation seemed to be sharing change booths. One of I know was in 1937 when the passageway was opened between (then) ICOS Delancey and BMT Essex--the ICOS agent covered the BMT entrance and the BMT paid part of his pay.
Everything was as separate as they could make it and nothing was given away for free. In fact, until the fare increase in 1948, the City didn't give free transfers either, except to cover abandonments (such as Rockaway Avenue BMT/IND) and in very limited circumstances. They still collected a nickel for each division you rode.
Doubt if the 2 private companies would sacrifice fares for a free transfer however when both were in receivership.
After the BRT was brought out of receivership in 1923 as the BMT it was solvent through the Depression right up to city ownership.
But there was absolutely no reason for the BMT and IRT to offer transfers to each other. For what possible reason?
Given the general attitudes and competition between the companies, I wonder about all of the squabbling that must have taken place during the dual contracts construction of the six-track subway beneath Flatbush Ave. from Atlantic to Grand Army Plaza. They must have had to cooperate with each other, or at least reach an accomodation about clearances and distances between the BMT center tracks andthe IRT express and local tracks. They also must have worked together on station configuration. It must have been a mess.
Do you or anyone else on subtalk know where I can find any research materials on that particular project?
Same thing at Union Square and 59th/Lexington. These were not free transfer points.
In fact, after unification the paid transfer policy continued until July 1948 when the fare went from a nickel to a dime. Then free transfer points were established at key points between the three divisions - Times Sq, Herald Sq, 59/Lex, 14th/Broadway, 161/River, 168/Broadway, 74/Roosevelt, Fulton Street, to name a few.
The one exception was Queensboro Plaza. There was a free transfer between the IRT and BMT simply because the Flushing and Astoria routes were jointly operated and shared the same platforms and fare controls. So a person desiring to travel from Coney Island to one of the Bronx IRT routes could travel to QB Plaza on the BMT, change to a downtown Flushing Line train, go to Grand Central or Times Square, and then pick up an IRT uptown train. But if that person transferred at Times Sq then two fares were required.
I disagree with the free transfer at Queensboro Plaza - I have the Contract Drawings and they show two separate fare controls for the IRT and the BMT.
I think you had to travel furtner along the Flushing or Astoria lines to get a free transfer - OTOH was the extra time really worth a nickel...
You want the real deal? I heard from a very reliable source at 370 Jay that the 7 will be back to all-Redbird by Spring. There aren't enough left to maintain express service, so all service will be local.
The R-62As will temporarily replace the R-142/142A fleets while they go back to the vendor for door sensor modification following that dragging incident. By the time the door mods are finished, the new South Ferry terminal will be open, so some of the 62As will go to the 1/9 to increase service. Several trainsets will be held for the 4 to increase the spare ratio. The rest will go back to the 7 to reinstitute express service.
Seriously...where the hell do they come up with this ridiculous $#!T?
I know that until Corona is compelte with the yard upgrade and renovation, then the R142's will betransferred from the 2 line to the 7.
And that won't happen with less than 2 months to go. And there are 3rd rail issues to contend with, plus more testing before the equipment swap between Unionport/East 180th st yards with Corona yard can take place.
I'd prefer R142s than R142As, but oh well.
BMT Standards that were on scrap lists and some actually on scrap lines were returned to service due to problems with other equipment.
The Putnam Avenue trolley was restored for WWII after it was already closed.
Steam was revived on the 5th Avenue L for a time. IIRC ditto for some Brighton runs.
Philadelphia restored trackage a few years ago for a connector to bypass streetcar road construction. And the 15 line came back about a decade ago (but was never formally abandoned) while the 10 line was worked on. And it'll be back again, with PCCs...
But I sure wouldn't want to hold my breath on this one, but if lightning strikes, maybe we'll need a midnight posse to Corona with crosses, wolfbane and wooden stakes.
Unless I didn't hear anything to the contrary, there were little structural problems with the slants and modified R40 sets.
R16, as crappy as they were (the doors didn't work during winter when in service first in 1955.), they were still running until 1981.
The intent of the R44 and R46 sets were to replace the last of the R1/9 sets which had reached their end of their lifespans in regular revenue service.
I wonder if the same could happen with R-62's or R-68's someday.
For more details, see The New York City Transit Authority in the 1970s, right here on this site.
--Mark
When did this take place??
ROFLMAO!
The only advantage I see was to give riders between Brighton Beach and Stillwell Avenue quicker access to the 4th Avenue line. For riders from those stations heading into Manhattan, wouldn't express service on the Brighton line actually give them a quicker trip?
--Mark
I think they should reinstitute special summer expresses on the Sea Beach line, four per hour on weekends and weekdays over 90 degress (during non-rush hours).
It might catch on, and help to make Coney and bigger destination again. and the marginal cost of off peak service is so low -- no additional stations, station personnel, cars, car equipment maintainers, track capacity, MOW personnel, tower operators, or administrative personnel. Just a few more T/Os and conductors and a little bit of advertizing. The PR value alone would be worth the cost.
Relay on the middle track on the Astoria line north of Queensboro. Queensboro, Lexington, 5th Avenue, 57th, 49th, 42nd, 34th, 14th, Canal, Pacific, 59th (skip 36th), Coney Island Terminal. Express from many transfer points and the hotels in Midtown. It could really work.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
If they're planning on getting there anytime soon though - the good old D train is the way to go - last thrown out of Coney, first back in. A train SO noble, it had to abandon the Brighton just to be able to get back to Coney ahead of schedule. Heh.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Here is the beauty of it. Most people use the subway to go TO Manhattan AM FROM Manhattan PM. Those traveling to Coney Island would be going against traffic, in a direction that otherwise needs fewer trains.
So from the end of rush hour (weekday) or just hte morning (weekend/holiday) until 2:00 pm, you'd run fewer two fewer N and two fewer Q trains FROM Manhattan and have the run as "beach specials" once every 15 minutes instead. They'd head back TO Manhattan as the extra Ns and Qs to carry people in the peak direction.
After 2:00 pm, you'd reverse it. You'd have fewer Ns and Qs going TO Manhattan -- they'd run as "beach specials" instead. They'd run as extra Qs and Ns FROM Manhattan.
Something tells me the MTA has heard from me once too often. Perhaps you should. Don't worry, I won't file a copywrite suit.
I'm not sure that would be required. Remember, lots of other express trains would be going to Coney Island. I was thinking outbound to, say, 2 pm and inbound thereafter for the super express.
BTW, no need to stop at 49th -- no one lives near there -- just go express starting from 57th.
Only once have I been on a W train there that wasn't held for a W. Instead it was held for a connection at 59th, which makes sense, so passengers can transfer either way.
As I remember R27/30 consists were used.
I have only seen one photo of a train with an RJ sign.
I have also only seen one photo of an NX on a side sign, I think...
Regards,
Jimmy
Yes!
Regards,
Jimmy
Bring back the blue stripe!!!!
It's amazing that the flushing platform has not changed one bit since that pic, or atleast anything noticeable.
My opinion is that it did happen. Also remember that the Gowanus was heavily rebuilt (as primitive as it looks today) for conversion from a parkway into an expressway in anticipation of the VN bridge. I remember the old parkway and it certainly could have been built on the old uprights. I am fairly certain nothing or almost nothing of the el structure exists today.
If you want an idea of what 3rd Avenue used to be like, go wander south of 65th St and see the type of neighborhood that was destroyed.
The "Compressed" list has been changed to clean up the fact that a thread would show up as multiple top level posts after the first post was no longer being shown to you because of your date criteria.
Now it shows you a list of threads in the order in which they have had new posts, and each line shows you a link to the First post in a thread and a link to the most recent post in a thread. I like it, YMMV...
-Dave
PS: Seen the 2004 Map previews?
Very nice,
Mark
Something else that could be added to the wish list is the ability to go back to the previous message. They way things are, you only know what a message is responding to if you have just read the previous message, which is not very likely.
BUT, is there an option to see who was the first poster w/o going through and clicking the thread?
The "Compressed" list has been changed to clean up the fact that a thread would show up as multiple top level posts after the first post was no longer being shown to you because of your date criteria.
Now it shows you a list of threads in the order in which they have had new posts, and each line shows you a link to the First post in a thread and a link to the most recent post in a thread. I like it, YMMV...
I would not have known about the changes if you hand not announced it. The reason is because I view the massage headers in the "By Thread" format showing two weeks worth of posts. I do it this way because this how I have read USNET sense 1994 and I have gotten use to that format.
Oh, and to David, I use the right mouse button function to open massages in a new window to keep from reloading the massage list from the server to hold down on bandwidth.
John
I use the right mouse button function to open massages in a new window to keep from reloading the massage list from the server to hold down on bandwidth.
Actually, if you just let the whole mainpage load completely before starting to click on things, you should be able to click "back" and return to the mainpage, without the page refreshing itself.
I generally wait for the whole list to download. Two week worth of post lists is something over 1200 KB. As a result Microsoft Internet Explorer will query the server to determine if there is a difference between local cache and what is on the server and redownload the list if it is different. This takes longer to refresh the list. I use IE because the version of Netscape that I am using will crash randomly, go figure. The server will automatically refresh the list after a fixed time, one hour I think is what it is.
John
Yes, this code appears in the index: <meta http-equiv="Refresh" content="3600">
<META http-equiv="Refresh" content="3600">
Exactly what I do.
I'm shocked, shocked! A resident of Britain using "less" when he means "fewer". That's the kind of thing Americans do.
I have seen photographs of subway cars, residing in scrap yards, that have had their front ends removed (and usually most of their underbody assemblies as well). Can anyone tell me for what reason and by what means the front end is removed from a disused car?
Thanks.
-JH
I think that Phil is trying to tell you that reusable parts (including ends) are always salvaged from cars slated to be scrapped.
When a nose is removed from a car, it is removed very carefully by the body shoppe, using hand saws. The last time they removed a nose, it was that of damaged (side-impact) R40 Slant #4260, who crashed in the tunnel west of 9th Avenue on the "B" line. This piece was grafted onto the shattered end of R40M #4461, which crashed on the Williamsburgh Bridge on June 5, 1995. The results of this surgery (R40M body with R40 Slant end) was renumbered #4260. We call that car "Frankenslant".
wayne
wayne
Thanks, in advnace.
Da Hui
Da Hui
Tony
I think the RJ's real purpose was to serve as a mechanism to get the R16's off the Eastern Division and onto the RR and EE, which it pretty much did by Jan 1968. There were 5 per rush hour, usually : 3 R27 and 2 R16 into the summer of 1968. Other than a stray on the QJ every so often, this was the R16's last stand on the Eastern Division until they returned en masse when the R9's got scrapped in 1976.
Wasn't what is "today's M" a rush hour only service too? I think the Myrtle El (wooden line) was the full time service.
wayne
AM rush: 168th St. to Canal St.; skip-stop along Jamaica Ave.
PM rush: Canal St. to Crescent St. OR Atlantic Ave. OR Rockaway Parkway, all stops.
During all other times, it was the old #15 Jamaica local, running between 168th St. and Broad St.
Actually, I was reading a book from the 70s in the library yesterday in which some Frogs said they thought they could get 48-80tph through a single track! They did this with multi-track terminal loops and each track splitting into two at stations. It was quite a neat idea really!
Now, I normally don't say anything, but isn't this sorta Ironic?
After all, you posted to say that you have left?
Haw Haw. You ain't kiddin'. Usenet has roots in the old BBS time/space. This joint is like a playgound in comparison to Usenet. And sheeyoot, that dude (who is like a store that's always Going Out Of Business) wouldna' lasted more than a post or two.
Then communicate through e-mail. This is a public forum.
Ahh, but the Brooklyn thread that's... that's where I had them. They laughed at me and made jokes but I proved beyond the shadow of a doubt and with... geometric logic... that a duplicitive group of Backstabbers DID exist, and I'd have exposed them if they hadn't forced me out of action. I, I, I know now they were only trying to protect some fellow Subtalkers...
Kind of makes you long for the days when the only parting gifts one got was a case of Turtle Wax.
CG
I believe I delivered a rather neutral history of your time on subtalk. By no means did I, as you put it, backstab, as that would imply that I first acted like your friend.
You harassed the entire subtalk community with your repetitive, inane posts that were only vaguely on topic here. Your posts about various subway pop-culture things were amusing at first, but when you completed the 50th or so post based on the same thought structure it became slightly annoying, and I feel that I, as well as all those who shared the same opinion as me, had a right to share our displeasure with you.
Also I had no part in that thread relating to which subway line had the most attractive people, you'll find exactly one post by me on that thread, pointing out that which should have been blatantly obvious. I do belive you should be refering to some people who share my viewpoint, but are more vocal about their opinions.
Now as for your insinuations that I am somehow henpecked or out of control of my life at home, I can assure you that your accusations are completely groundless. I have been out of home for just about 6 months now, I have a heathly life in most respects, and am trying to complete a civil engineering degree at Drexel.
Now, I ask again, could we please move past your personal failings and return to transit topics?
I don't mean to offend anyone who has real cancer.
(Seinfeld Ref)
Chuck Greene
We should, like others have said, stick to transit issues, although a lot of our personal lives slip in from time to time, and it's tough
at times to keep it out.
Chuck Greene
That problem will be solved if you stop hanging upside down like a bat. You'll understand vertical directions better.
wayne
I beg to differ.
For one thing, if you told me that you were gay, I would respect that. If you had problems, I respect that too. I give EVERYONE the benefit of the doubt just as long as it is not a con game to ask for money.
But the egg cream incident totally changed my views about you. Then you started to post fictional and tired stuff, it was to the point that NOT ONE POST WAS ACTUALLY SOMETHING TO DISCUSS FACTS ON A RAIL OR SUBWAY ISSUE OR NEWS STORY. You start to mimic movies, dull items and then YOU HAVE THE AUDACITY TO SHOVE YOUR GAY CRAP IN MY FACE AS A WAY TO ACCEPT MY APOLOGY. YOU REFUSED AND STOOD BY YOUR SICK JOKE FOR ME TO KILL YOU, THAT IS MURDER AND I COULD'VE BEEN CHARGED WITH CAPITAL MURDER YOU PUNK. THIS IS THE INTERNET, A PLACE WHERE THE NATION AND THE WORLD, INCLUDING FEDERAL, STATE, AND LOCAL AUTHORITIES SEEING YOUR REQUEST TO HAVE ME LACE AN EGG CREAM DRINK WITH CYANIDE. YOU ARE A LOW LIFE PHONY AND A BIGOT. I WILL NOT GO DOWN WITH A NEEDLE FOR YOUR SICK, PSYCHO REQUEST. I AM A PERSON WHO CAN CARE ABOUT EVERYONE AND ANYONE, SOME PEOPLE HAVE SEEN ME IN THE "ny UNDERGROUND" PROGRAM AND KNOW ME THAT I CAN GO PLACES WHERE I CAN DO. I BELIEVE THAT EVERYONE CAN GO PLACES BECAUSE I HAVE THE GUTS AND THE WILLPOWER TO OVERCOME ANY OBSTACLE THAT I ENCOUNTER. I FEEL THAT LIFE IS FULL OF HAPPINESS AND MY PERSISTANCE IS A TRAIT THAT WILL NOT DIE. I LOVE EVERYBODY IN SUBTALK/BUSTALK, I LOVE MEETING PEOPLE IN MOD TRIPS, AND I JUST LOVE PEOPLE THAT WILL BE WILLING TO GIVE ME SOME FORM OF RESPECT. CC LOCAL FAILED ON ALL COUNTS AND HE IS ONE PERSON I WILL NOT MISS, NOT EVER ON THIS BOARD.
I hold my peace and shall continue on this board. Thank you everyone.
Can we please leave this station now and get back on the train??
The B isn't going to 57 St/ 7 Av. ;-)
According to the poll, more than half the people.
See there , isn't this nice ? I already read the posts where Jersey Mike apologized to CC , so why do we have to continue this ? It seems all the people involved enjoy drama in their lives , even if it's an unconscious need .
I didn't attack CC Local because he is gay, I attacked him because of something which I don't want to talk again and I want to move forward. He didn't apologize to me after I asked for one and said it was a "joke" (sic!), then he apologizes a second time and shoves the gay thing at me. One thing does not have to do with the other, homosexuals have rights as well as straight men and woman (except marriage). I for one if I had the time and money, would be more than willing to visit the D.C. area and meet WMATA... (sorry for the abbreviated handle) and other DC area Subtalkers and ride the Metro and MARTA to Baltimore too. And I know that WMATAGOGH is gay, yet as long as we discuss and enjoy trains, it's fine with me and is a pleasure to meet him.
I really don't want to talk about this because I agree with GP38 Chris and want to move forward now. STAND CLEAR OF THE CLOSING DOORS PLEASE.
Not a true statement but I do respect people who are.
Not that there's anything wrong with that.
He's been posting trash ever since he first came on this board. I thought I was a sensitive person, but CC Local made me look good. Every little comment made to him he considered an attack; so count me as part of the people who won't miss him. -Nick
I was just too young to remember when Sands St was still in service. My Dad would often talk of what a massive el station it was. His descriptions sounded so confusing because I had no pictures of it in those days. Seeing these pictures now just goes to prove that it must have been something to see in person.
I was pretty impressed with the appearance and action going on at Eastern Parkway-Broadway Junction in the 1940's too. there were Standards and gate trains going every which way, and Multi's passing by overhead.
I notice that in between 1995 and 1997 the N extension to Embarcadero opened, with a new portal and series of passing sidings west of the Embarcadero station on the original Muni Metro. I know that back in the pre-Embarcadero extension they relayed (for lack of a better word) all the Muni Metro routes at Embarcadero. These days I know that the N continues past the Embarcadero passing sidings to the CalTrain Depot.
I've heard from other sources that SF Muni Metro has been fraught with delays and problems since they introduced their ATC system for the Metro. This source claimed that the Metro system was unable to relay trains fast enough at Embarcadero due to the limitations of the ATC system. I know the ATC system installed in 1998 had issues when first installed, but certainly some 5 years down the road I'd think that they'd finally work the kinks out of the system by now.
I noticed on those maps that after the extension to the CalTrain Depot the relay tracks at Embarcadero were reduced from 2 on platform at Embarcadero to 1 track squeezed in between the N tracks. It would seem to me that if they reduced the tracks available for turning then they'd be bound to have problems turning trains at Embarcadero. Especially if they only reduced the TPH turning there by one of the five routes that use the Muni Metro bypasses it.
So now my questions:
Have the ATC system's flaws been worked out?
Do they still relay on the platform at Embarcadero, or do they use the sidings just beyond it?
Does my hypothesis about the reduced turning capacity at Embarcadero have any grounding?
Why didn't they run any other routes to the CalTrain Depot? It'd seem to me that running the K or M, or some other route past the siding would reduce the TPH needing to turn there and might alleviate some of the capacity problems (this assumes my hypothesis is correct).
Finally, could the elimination of coupling of K,L, and M trains, as was done with the Boeings at West Portal, have anything to do with increasing the TPH now that the Bredas have taken over and that practice has stopped?
Thanks in advance to anyone who can answer my questions...
MUNI Central Control
http://sfmunicentral.com/
(A Java applet showing locations of trains in the Muni Metro subway.)
you will see that the length and the switches of the center relay track beyond Embarcadero station are such that you can relay 2 trains there at the same time -- you can send 2 in right after each other and keep 'em there a while and send them out again, in the same order they entered. They don't appear to be using the platform tracks to relay.
Outbound rush hour service is STILL often chaotic. If street running has disrupted the inbound sequence, outbound trains are brarely redesignated, leading to large crowds waiting on the platforms.
Question! Why didn't the LIRR opt to build an MU fleet based on the C-3 concept? What would pe the problem with a fleet of Double-Decker MU cars?
The ex-Pullman parlor cars ran to Flatbush on several business excursions pulled by either Alco yard switchers or several MP54'
s. The Pullmans were not much lower than the double-deckers, and they were only 7" taller than the MP72's.
I hope you see my point.
While Double Decker MU's might be nice, the reasons for not doing it are obvious.
lose == loose
There is no way you can construct an EMU bi-level with all the equipment they need and have it clear any of the NY or Brooklyn tunnels. The real problem is the ADA regs, and I am not convinced the M-7 is as efficient as it could have been in terms of number of seats. What is all that blank space behind the cabs ?
Hey, it's an emergency contingency plan that I just came up with, what the hell do you want?
As for the idea that the cars are two high, it's not so much of a problem as one might think. While raising the top of the tunnel into FBA would be impossible, klowering the trackbed is a relatively simple matter in a land tunnel. This issue was discussed here a while back when lowering the tracks into grand Central (to resolve a clearance problem) was discussed, although I can't remember the specifics.
Hey, maybe we could build a tunnel from Brooklyn to Staten Island, electrify the Fresh Pond branch, add a connection to the East Side Basphomy and run a Rockland to Richmond Express Service over that new Tappen Zee bridge of yours.
3 words for you mikey:
Dare to Dream!
Admit it, you only want C3 MU's because they would be "cool".
Also, I agree, not every car needs bathrooms. Is it possible to design a car like you speak. I'd be willing to bet so. Hell, you give me the seating dimensions and w/e and I'll fit it in. I design cars that are 84-86 feet long and 10 feet wide. Give me your input on how wide each seat should be, and how wide the aisles should be. I normally leave 2-3.5 feet for wheelchairs. However, we can put wheelchair positions closer to the doors. Vestibule doors, excellent idea IMO. All my designs have vesitbule doors. The only design that differs is my push-pull bi-level coach with level boarding at both high and low platforms. It has double doors at the center of the lower level, and then the vestibule doors. All of my designs are also 2-2 seating.
So, gimme your input and I'll se if I can come up with something.
Err, Mike, wasn't it similar comments from me about some of your posts that caused you to wish that i get hit by a train? Would you like to borrow a safety vest?
Underfloor equipment. The restrictive gauge on LIRR mean that you don't have enough room to do a Metra Highliner style equipment. Specifically, Penn tunnels are the problem.
Is that correct?
Remember, it doesn't have to be a C3. It can be a new design.
Frankly, if you want to save money ditch MU's and go with straight DC locomotives pulling push-pull trainsets. You'll save on inspection requirements as well as equipment costs and maintainence.
How about you do it? Let us know when you're done.
Mark
Yup. Most people who've ridden them say that they like the seats best, but I don't even think the M-7's seats are all that much of an improvement.
Why didn't the LIRR opt to build an MU fleet based on the C-3 concept? What would pe the problem with a fleet of Double-Decker MU cars?
They're too big to go to Brooklyn, and to big to go to Grand Central via 63rd Street. It looks like 63rd Street will actually be a consideration for at least some of today's equipment.
With the floors of the C-3 cars as low as they are, is there enough space down below to outfit them with motors?
Mark
As others have pointed out, the first is height. They need something that gets through the Atlantic Ave and 63rd Street tunnels and the C3's don't. Of course if the problem is only a matter of inches, perhaps this is remedied.
The second is mechanics. I'm guessing that an MU has more going on underneath the floor of the car than a push-pull coach does. With the lowered floor for the bottom level seating, perhaps there isn't enough room for all that's needed.
The third is fare collection. Single level cars allow the conductor to make a single sweep of the car to get all tickets. The bi-levels require the conductor to double back which makes fare evasion easier.
For the most part, the diesel lines are only crowded during rush hours, when most passengers have a monthly or weekly pass. Many of the current MU lines are crowded throughout the day with daily ticket or cash riders who are more likely to try and evade fare collection.
CG
So basically, new MU double deckers for NYP rush hour runs on all electric lines(including montauk line to Babylon), single level MU's for GCT and flatbush runs, and current double decker fleet for NYP runs from diesel territory and all other diesel territory runs.
BS. Maybe in a FEW places, very few, but for probably 98% of the system, they're fine weight wise. Also, it's just the coaches, not the DE/DM's as well, which are more of a weight problem(wonderful, now even our trains are becomming obease!). And yes, the Manhasset viaduct CAN support the weight! Remember, they have already run the entire length of the PW, PJ, Montauk, Main, and OB lines and have probably been on the West Hempstead and Far rock lines too.
"Can't go to FBA (ok, that didn't stop the M-1s or MP-70s or MP-54s...). "
Just use the current MU's for those runs.
"No space for inverters"
Just build a new design for new bi-level MU cars.
"Slow boarding/unloading at stations."
Who the hell gives a rats ass!? The doors are the same on the M7's. Signle leaf, and I'm pretty sure the same width. Hell, I wouldn't be suprised if the doors on the Budd cars(M1's and M3's) are the same width. Also, if you really wanted, like I said before, design new cars with wider doors.
"Not a popular design with most riders"
That's just simply BS.
"(though better than the C-1s and the old DD fleet, which was hated by virtually everyone)"
No, just everyone who was too damn lazy to walk up a small flight of stairs. The elderly and handicapped though I felt bad for as they could not use/had lots of trouble using the steps.
"No significant capacity increase. This is why NJT will be screwed with their DD fleet."
Any passenger capacity increase that can't be done with a single level is worth it.
Ok. You've got a 150,000 lb railcar. Now, add 20,000 lbs of propulsion equipment. We want a reasonable acceleration rate, so let's say 2.0mph/s initial rate. We want to match an M-1, at least . Ok, an M-1 is 92,000 lbs, 550hp. About 170 lbs per HP. Now, a C-3 + propulsion sytem would be near 170,000 lbs. So, you'd need 1,000 HP. Per car. Now, assume the impossible - no HEP load, 100% propulsion system efficiency. That's a 1,000 amp load, per car. Now, you've got 12 cars. 12,000 Amp load. That's pretty much near the substation capacity, and we've not added HEP, and losses. Have fun keeping schedule....
Also, it's just the coaches, not the DE/DM's as well, which are more of a weight problem(wonderful, now even our trains are becomming obease!).
It's still a lot of power.
And yes, the Manhasset viaduct CAN support the weight! Remember, they have already run the entire length of the PW, PJ, Montauk, Main, and OB lines and have probably been on the West Hempstead and Far rock lines too.
When did DM's go to PW. and it's not an issue of the struture supporting it, it's an issue of an MU being simply too damm heavy to be able to accelerate and maintain schedule.
Just build a new design for new bi-level MU cars.
And, where the hell are you going to put the electric equipment? That stuff's big (it'll be huge with the kind of HP such a beast will need), and it can't go anywhere.
Who the hell gives a rats ass!?
Try the public, who will drive instead if the train's too slow. The LIRR exists to move people, not provide wet dreams for railfans. the M-1 was designed specifically for faster loading/unloading, to cuit station dwell times. Being stopped kills your average speed like nothing else.
The doors are the same on the M7's. Signle leaf, and I'm pretty sure the same width. Hell, I wouldn't be suprised if the doors on the Budd cars(M1's and M3's) are the same width. Also, if you really wanted, like I said before, design new cars with wider doors.
It's not door width, it's passengers get on and don't know where the heck to go. With the M-1s, you look left/right, and walk. With the DM's, it's peek upstairs, bend down, peek downstairs, look left/right, pick if you want the upper level or lower level, etc. And the stairs themselves slow things down.
That's just simply BS.
People complain they're cramped, people don't like the swaying on the upper level. They're not the mot popular piece of equipment, though better than the god awful design used out in Chicago.
No, just everyone who was too damn lazy to walk up a small flight of stairs. The elderly and handicapped though I felt bad for as they could not use/had lots of trouble using the steps.
Which included the crews, cleaners, and passengers. Riders rejoyced when those cars were dumped. There was no tearful goodbye. The LIRR used to have to make them the only smokers on trains to get people into them. They were cramped, awkward, uncomfortable, and not liked by anyone.
Again, rail equipment is supposed to serve the public. easy access, easy board and unboarding, and comfort are all things that attract the public. The average commuter isn't looking for a 'real train experience' at 7am, they just want to sit down and get to Penn on time. If the train's not attractive to them, they drive. Simple as that. The LIRR's ridership was dropping like a rock until the M-1s arrived, because riders simply didn't like the MP-54s, or the DD units of the time.
Any passenger capacity increase that can't be done with a single level is worth it.
10 passenger for a car that would be more cramped, slower, and more expensive to operate than the existing stuff? If it could be built in the first place. If it was such a no brainer, the LIRR would have done it. Oh wait, it is a no brainer, that's why they didn't get them - because it's a stupid idea.
When the M7's got here. They were running a train of an M7, 2 C3's, and a DE/DM, or something like that. Either way, there was a C3, an M7, and a DE or DM in the consist.
"it's an issue of an MU being simply too damm heavy to be able to accelerate and maintain schedule."
All in all, it'd probably equal to just a little more than the current diesel consists with the DE/DM's.
"And, where the hell are you going to put the electric equipment? That stuff's big (it'll be huge with the kind of HP such a beast will need), and it can't go anywhere."
I can't figure everything out! Design it with room to put it!
"Try the public, who will drive instead if the train's too slow."
The bi-levels would be used on express runs(NYP-Sunnyside-Flushing Main St-Great Neck-Manhasset-Plandome-PW) meaning they will not be stopping so much that it will impact the schedule by more than 2-3 minutes.
"It's not door width, it's passengers get on and don't know where the heck to go."
Hmm, why have I never seen that? Either way, I'm sure it does happen on the LIRR, and I'm sure it happens on other RR's using bi-level equipment.
"People complain they're cramped, people don't like the swaying on the upper level."
Show me reports or w/e where people voice these complaints. I have never personally heard one complaint. Also, how the hell are they cramped!? it's 4 seats rows compared to 5 on the MU's. That means each seat is wider, cuz I can promise you the aisles are not wider, maybe an inch or 2, but that's it.
"better than the god awful design used out in Chicago."
Are you F'in kidding me! Metra is great! Those bi-levels are the greatest with their low level doors for low level platforms. That's how every RR should be, like Metra and Tri-Rail and Metrolink. What's your beef with low level platforms and double deckers!?
"Which included the crews, cleaners,"
They took the job knowing what they were in for. If they didn't want to deal with those old coaches they shouldn't have taken the job. Yeah, their interior state was a disaster, and yes, I do think it was time the LIRR retired them, but they were still great cars.
"not liked by anyone."
Absolute BS once again. I liked them. Are you calling me no one? What about others like GP38Chris? Are they no one too?
"The average commuter isn't looking for a 'real train experience' "
Really? NO SHIT! Why the hell do you think I'm stating my opinion on bi-level MU's? B/c I'm trying to help possibly create something that will help passengers be more comfortable. Am I trying to make the JetBlue of railroads? No, but pax do deserve to be comfortable.
"10 passenger for a car that would be more cramped, slower"
10? HAH! Try something like 25-30+. Cramped? Don't think so. Slower? Yeah, but not by much. I already explained how travel times would be efected by a very limited amount of time.
"If it was such a no brainer, the LIRR would have done it"
We're talking about the LIRR here. They shut down a whole bunch of stations bitching that they couldn't afford the new high level platforms for them when they could have had the C3's designed with steps for those stations that are now closed.
"If it was such a no brainer, the LIRR would have done it. Oh wait, it is a no brainer, that's why they didn't get them - because it's a stupid idea."
ow, if that's not contradicting yourself than IDK what is. Either way, you're entitled to your opinion as I am entitled to mine. However, I will question the sanity of someone who wines about low level platforms and double deckers and questions great cars like those ones Metra uses, but, hey, that's just me.
Hey, watch your mouth. Those Gallery cars are way cool!!
Check the photo galleries here or at nycrail.com if you want photos. You don't need to ask for them, as there are plenty available.
With the exception of New York, most American cities that run bi-level commuter trains do not suffer from a shortage of track capacity. So why do they run infrequent bi-level trains, rather than more frequent trains with lower seating capacity? Wouldn't more frequent (and perhaps faster) services attract more passengers?
L.A. Metrolink is the one that I mainly had in mind. They have magnificent bi-level trains but the number of trains per day is quite pathetic, typically ten trains per day Monday to Friday. On some lines there is no service at all in the evenings or on weekends. Surely there must be more demand to travel between downtown L.A. and places like El Monte and Covina.
Apparently it has only been running for a few years, and it is considered quite a success despite the infrequent trains.
Tri-Rail I learned doesn't have as many trains as I thought.
I am not familiar with commuter rail services in Florida. Toronto's "GO" has bi-level trains but only one line (the Lakeshore) has much of a service.
My disappointment with L.A. Metrolink was based on comparison with commuter services in London and southeast England, which generally run at frequent intervals and are often crowded with commuters, although they don't use double-decker trains.
Tri-Rail is only one line from Mangolia to Miami Int'l Airport. They use the same Bombardier bi-levels as Metrolink and Toronto GO. The Tri-Rail cars have a much nicer paint job though.
Tri-Rail is only one line from Mangolia to Miami Int'l Airport.
The 72 mile line serves three airports: Miami, Fort Lauderdale and West Palm Beach.
There are 14 trains per day in each direction. Journey time from end to end is two hours, one way.
They use the same Bombardier bi-levels as Metrolink and Toronto GO.
Bombardier Transportation currently maintains two of North America's largest BiLevel commuter fleets with SCRRA/Metrolink in Los Angeles and GO Transit in Toronto.
Toronto's GO (Government of Ontario) Transit started to operate bi-level trains in 1977.
Lakeshore West GO: 32 trains per day from Burlington to Union Station (includes some shorter and longer journeys).
Lakeshore East GO: 32 trains per day from Pickering to Union Station (includes some shorter journeys).
Lakeshore has reduced services on weekends. Other lines run rush hours only, 4 per day in the peak direction only.
As your observations suggest, you have to catch shuttle buses from the train stations to the airports.
I doubt that train crews are at more any risk from catching TB from pantograph gates as they would be from getting Rabies from being bitten by one. Usually the rust is on the buffing faces of the gates and there are no sharp edges there. The worst that will happen is that you'll likely get your pants dirty.
You mean you didn't hear about that rabid train in Virginia? It snakes across from the Metrorail facility onto CSX and took a good chunk out of the rail... and a freight train derailed later.
You have some nerve, bringing up a transit related topice here. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
#3 West End Jeff
“I say, I killed my wife with a rusty razor blade!”
“Oh, how?”
“I gave her arsenic!”
Needs British pronunciation to be understood!
“I say, I killed my wife with a rusty razor blade!”
“Oh, how?”
“I gave her arsenic!”
Needs British pronunciation to be understood!
Thanks.
Date: January 07, 2004
Press Release Number: 2-2004
Design to Feature Glass-and-Steel Grand Point of Arrival, Natural Lighting on PATH Platforms
Santiago Calatrava – the world-famous architect designing the Port Authority’s World Trade Center Transportation Hub – will publicly present the design on January 22 in New York City, New York Governor George E. Pataki and New Jersey Governor James E. McGreevey announced today.
The Port Authority announced last summer that the Downtown Design Partnership, in association with Mr. Calatrava, would design the World Trade Center Transportation Hub. The partnership is led by the joint venture of DMJM + Harris and STV Group, Inc. – two of the nation’s most successful and respected architectural-engineering firms.
The $2 billion World Trade Center Transportation Hub is expected to feature:
A spectacular glass-and-steel Grand Point of Arrival that will become a major architectural landmark.
A permanent PATH (Port Authority Trans-Hudson) terminal that will serve tens of thousands of daily commuters between New Jersey and Lower Manhattan, as well as millions of annual visitors to the World Trade Center Memorial.
Pedestrian connections that will significantly improve access to PATH, ferries and subway lines across Lower Manhattan. By 2020, these connections are expected to accommodate 250,000 daily commuters and visitors.
Natural lighting on the PATH platforms approximately 60 feet below street level.
Governor Pataki said, “Akin to Midtown’s Grand Central Terminal, Santiago Calatrava’s design for the new and permanent World Trade Center Transportation Hub for Lower Manhattan will serve as an architectural icon for the ages, born of hope and forged of steel and glass. It will create a new grand civic space for Lower Manhattan, carrying natural light down to the platforms and into a place once made dark by evil.”
Governor McGreevey said, “The Port Authority’s World Trade Center Transportation Hub, designed by Santiago Calatrava, will significantly benefit the tens of thousands of New Jersey residents who work in Lower Manhattan – easing their commute to Wall Street, the World Financial Center and subway connections. This state-of-the-art transportation system also will enable millions of visitors to the World Trade Center Memorial to pay their respects to the heroes of September 11, 2001.”
Port Authority Chairman Anthony R. Coscia said, “The Port Authority is committed to rebuilding the World Trade Center site by respecting and honoring those who were lost, providing state-of-the-art transportation facilities, and strengthening the economy of Lower Manhattan and the entire region. Santiago Calatrava’s inspiring design will reflect this agency’s commitment and will complement the other iconic elements of the World Trade Center site – the Freedom Tower, the Wedge of Light and the Memorial.”
Port Authority Vice Chairman Charles A. Gargano said, “A world-class mass-transportation system is essential for the continued economic recovery of Lower Manhattan. With one-third of all the people who work in Lower Manhattan coming from New Jersey and millions of square feet of downtown office space up for renewal in the next few years, we must ensure that Lower Manhattan’s infrastructure has the ability to accommodate a revitalized neighborhood.”
Port Authority Executive Director Joseph J. Seymour said, “The World Trade Center Transportation Hub will rival Grand Central Terminal as an architectural achievement and as an economic catalyst. For the first time in a century, Lower Manhattan’s knotted mass-transit network will be untangled. Santiago Calatrava’s work, which will be presented months ahead of schedule, will strike the appropriate balance between beauty and function, comfortably and conveniently meeting the needs of Lower Manhattan residents, commuters and visitors to the World Trade Center Memorial for decades to come.”
Mr. Calatrava said, “I was honored and humbled to be asked by DMJM + Harris and STV to contribute to the rebirth of the World Trade Center site. It is my hope that the World Trade Center Transportation Hub will one day be considered an important contribution to New York City’s rich architectural history, joining such transportation icons as Grand Central Terminal and Terminal 5 at John F. Kennedy International Airport.”
The permanent World Trade Center Transportation Hub is scheduled to begin serving passengers in 2006. It is expected to include underground pedestrian connections to New York City subway stations on the 1/9, N/R and E lines, as well as connections to the 2, 3, 4, 5, J, M, Z, A and C lines at the Metropolitan Transportation Authority’s proposed Fulton Street Transit Center.
The Port Authority is in the middle of an environmental review process for the World Trade Center Transportation Hub, which is being developed in cooperation with the Federal Transit Administration.
A temporary PATH station opened at the World Trade Center site on November 23, 2003. The temporary station – the final piece of the Port Authority’s $566 million program to restore PATH service as quickly as possible between New Jersey and Lower Manhattan – was the first public space to open within the World Trade Center site since the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.
The temporary station is an open-air facility that provides a basic level of passenger service. It does not include many of the customer amenities that existed in the World Trade Center PATH station prior to September 11, 2001, such as heating, air conditioning and rest rooms. Those customer amenities will be restored in the permanent World Trade Center Transportation Hub.
The Port Authority began service on the Port Authority Trans-Hudson system, more commonly known as PATH, in 1962 after taking over the system from the bankrupt Hudson and Manhattan Railroad. The system was originally built in 1908, and the tunnels linking New York and New Jersey were the first passenger rail connections between the two states.
Before September 11, 2001, the PATH rapid-transit system of 13 stations carried approximately 260,000 daily passengers between New York and New Jersey. Today, PATH carries approximately 180,000 daily passengers. Prior to September 11, 2001, approximately 67,000 daily passengers boarded PATH at the World Trade Center.
The Port Authority of New York and New Jersey operates many of the busiest and most important transportation links in the region. They include John F. Kennedy International, Newark Liberty International, LaGuardia and Teterboro airports; AirTrain JFK and AirTrain Newark; the George Washington Bridge; the Lincoln and Holland tunnels; the three bridges between Staten Island and New Jersey; the PATH (Port Authority Trans-Hudson) rapid-transit rail system; the Downtown Manhattan Heliport; Port Newark; the Elizabeth-Port Authority Marine Terminal; the Howland Hook Marine Terminal on Staten Island; the Brooklyn Piers/Red Hook Container Terminal; and the Port Authority Bus Terminal in midtown Manhattan. The agency also owns the 16-acre World Trade Center site in Lower Manhattan. The Port Authority is financially self-supporting and receives no tax revenue from either state."
People here are good but not that good.
People here are good but not that good.
Do you really think that sort of thing is public information?
(Dont tell anyone! )
more than 200 PHOTOS ADDED
www.railfanwindow.com
Atlantic/IRT???
Peace,
ANDEE
I can't spell everything out. Of course UWS'ers know the location; that's the only reason why I know of it.
You do realize that nycsubway.org is more than just Subtalk right?
Actually, I hadn't discovered Subtalk for several months after discovering this website, and even then, I forgot about Sutbalk for years before returning again last Februrary.
Brian has much more luck than I do...when I was testing out my new camera last weekend, my batteries ran out - not when I was at 86th St taking a dozen photos of the wall, not when I was at 103rd taking blurry shots of trains going by, not while I went up to 181st for something that wasn't there - they gave out when a full-length Redbird consist was rolling through Columbus Circle!
See! Those R62 interiors are good for something after all!
There are posts on the Archives on the subject.
Were these the things that were radioactive?
Your goggles must have been dirty.
A search of "precipitron" on this site yielded NYC Subway Cars: R11
.
The Percipitron Filters were discussed several times in the past.
I believe your primary foil, Train Dude, has the info you're looking for. Unless you can "bury the hatchet", a direct e-mail to him would not be in your best interest.
The air is forced between plates charged with high voltage, and the airbone particles and aerosols are attraced to the plates and collected.
As a side feature these units tend to ionize the air, which some claim is a health benefit.
As mentioned in a previous posting, some units also feature UV lights to sterilize the air.
This is not new technology. When I was in the Navy in the 60s and 70s we had precipitators on submarines to help freshen the recirculated air.
You may have seen Ads on late night TV for a similar product for the home to "filter" the air with no moving parts. This is a similar technology.
Anyway, UV light does a good job of sterilization, they use it in operating rooms when they are not in use.
Peace,
ANDEE
Robert
Peace,
ANDEE
Shot of cab - controller under window
Closeup of controller
Peace,
ANDEE
Robert
Peace,
ANDEE
But then that is typical of the MTA - if it makes sense go the other way.
Peace,
ANDEE
Big Bad, are you reading this?
Or just go to Park Place on the shuttle and see for yourself.
Second: The new assignments are not out yet, it's still to early. The pick is still over a mouthn away from starting. But i can tell you this there might be some changes instore for some lines.
Robert
#3 West End Jeff
Robert
#3 West End Jeff
Robert
Thanks Robert
It used to connect to the Fulton Street el.
It still provides a connection between the Fulton Street Line and the Brighton Line, as well as serving some of the communities in between.
The great Malborn Street Wreck was on that line just as before it joins the Southbound Brighton line.
Elias
Mark
Robert
Oh. Well since I am a little dyslexic, I did not notice that it *was* misspelled.
: ) Elias
Bob Sklar
David
The Q did run a lot of R-32's, from both CI and Jamaica.
Now that the unitization project is complete and there are still nine R-68 singles, they might as well run on the shuttle.
...and you've got yourself a pretty neat show! (Yes, that little locomotive can and did pull those six heavyweight Pullmans!)
http://www.rypn.org/articles/040101IRM/default.htm
Frank Hicks
Pete's a long time IRM member, and belongs to BSM (and was very active there - he's a Baltimore native and still resides here.) and probably every other rail museum in the country, if not the world.
Well regarded in the transit industry, his resume is well known and he's still in great demand.
Yes, but they're junk. When the UP got rid of the Centennials, they put all of the junk SD40 prime movers they had on hand in the Centennials and put the Centennials' original (working) prime movers in SD40's. Since they were essentially going to scrap anyway, it didn't matter whether the prime movers worked. Because of this, I believe most of the major components (prime movers, traction motors, generators) in our unit have major problems. There have been proposals to buy one or two SD40's to strip for parts to get the DD40AX running, but we don't even have enough money to repaint the thing - forget buying a diesel to supply it with parts! For now it's just a "cab control" unit.
Frank Hicks
--Mark
Anyone know why not?
As for the LIRR building, and other buildings that will be the home of the first Target in Brooklyn and a office building, it looks good so far. Hopefully by 2006, it will replace the ugly LIRR Atlantic Ave terminal into a more ambient environment.
There's already a Target in Brooklyn.
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
The former K-Mart is now a Best Buy.
But at least the decades old pit behind the LIRR terminal will finally have some life infused into Downtown Brooklyn. Thank you for your info.
HEY! What's wrong with that. Seems downright WARM to me!
: )
Elias
2 floors of store, 1 floor of stock.
We got a Target store in Bismarck. It's been in exactly the same place all of the 20 years that I have been here.
I bought a big stuffed tiger there. He now sits at the doorway to our wine cellar, checking ID cards.
Elias
I would have thought that *anybody* could be a target in Brooklyn!
:^)
Isn't that what they said about the old Penn Station in New York back in the early 60's???
Moreover, escalators are costly and difficult to maintain under subway traffic, so they should be installed only where needed. Atlantic Ave isn't so deep that we can't make the stairs, aside from those who need the elevators.
And you wonder why the NY Daily News is promoting New Yorkers to lose weight.
The media reported a 'runaway' escalator in Co a few months (year?) ago. The thing was reported to have 'suddenly sped up', and dumped a load of people. It was later found to be working fine. IMHO, what happened was some bonehead stopped at the bottom of the thing to mess with their stroller, and everyone just piled up. It happens.
I'm amazed the subway system has them at all, not to mention elevators (which are another popular sue point)....
Even if the 20/50 passes not that many T/O could take advantage.
There are four. On opening day, all MVMs at Howard Beach were giving the "Connect the World" variety.
No, I'm implying I haven't been there since.
I do. How much is it worth (to you)?
"Coming to America" (ABC Family): Shout out to Eddie Murphy in unison "PAY YOUR FARE" as he jumps the turnstile while chasing the princess of his dreams at Van-Wyck Blvd (nope, it's actually shot at Hoyt-Schemerhorn) and watch a pre-GOH R38 train with graffiti too. For memories, our beloved Twin Towers makes a brief cameo appearance. Seeing it just breaks my heart, but 9/11 happenend so what can you do?
"From Russia With Love" (AMC): Sean Connery and Robert Shaw dueling inside the Orient Express that puts WWE to shame. Enough said.
Enjoy!
Not that I won't mistake you if you were really interested in James Bond films or not, I was making a comparison.
If possible can a Subtalker Send me a December 2003 The Map.
Please e-mail me off board for Mail Address.
The pics can be found at:
http://palter.org/~brotzman/11-08-03_BALTIMORE-DC_SMS/
And here are some general teasers.
First, some night action at Washingon Union Station. We have a Phaze V SW1200 hanging out, next to a track with blue flag protection, a MARc AEM-7 and K tower in the background.
Some more kick ass night shots like this one with the HUNTINGTOn AVE signal displaying an Approach Medium.
And here is the star of the SMS show, Baldwin DRS4-4-1000 #302 built in 1949 and showing her stuff on an industrial spur in the midday sun.
And GP39-2P #72 which is always poking about.
In front of the old Post office building
Here is my MARC train arriving.
Ok, I lied, here's a night shot of K Tower.
STOP and PROCEED
Straight APPROACH
APPROACH MEDIUM
And the fairly rare MEDIUM APPROACH
I would really love to catch a MEDIUM APPROACH MEDIUM, perhaps the rarest of them all.
AEM7
First, the old yard hump and NS power switching stuff...
The SMS interchange track
And the new NJT complex nearing completion.
AEM7
It's almost as if I was there!
BTW, the name of the SMS operation in Morrisville is Penn Jersey Lines.
Here is an ex Penn Central N11
And a Reading something or other.
And finally an ex PRR N5C which serves as the Morrisville operation office.
The crew sleeping area.
and the coupola
When we caught the crew they were cardboarding over the cooling louvres to try to raise the operating tempature in the cold weather.
first, the 1949 vintage control stand.
and control area
And the bulkhead / electrical cabinet
And the auxilliary crew (aka Railfan) bench
first, out the front
Now out the rear
Here are a picture of the offending bearings.
This is 1940's technology you're looking at, so no wonder the "class 1"'s won't touch it. That left the main lines in the 1960's.
I'm kinda surprised the the FRA hasn't outlawed them.
Roller bearings are fairly cheap, wonder why they haven't been changed.
Here is a picture of a friction bearing I caught on an NJT MoW gon at Winslow Jct in 2000
Flag crossings...
Switching tank cars...
Pounding in spikes into rotting ties
fixing flabby switches
http://palter.org/~brotzman/11-08-03_BALTIMORE-DC_SMS/Amt_WAS-Night-MARC-Arrival-low.jpg
He mentions that Eagles Expresses averaged 10,000 riders per game this year, compared with 7000 last year, and that 25,000 rode SEPTA for last year's conference championship loss to Tampa.
The Eagles are 15-5 when 7,000 or more fans ride SEPTA to the game.
What is it with banks and the sports center?
Wachovia Spectrum
Wachovia Center
Lincoln Financial Field
Citizens Bank Park
What ever happened to naming stadiums for people (I guess the Link is indirectly named for a person), or for doctors that treat animals.
Metro's Board Planning and Development Committee recommends "New York Ave-Florida Ave-Gallaudet U" name for new Red Line station
Today, the Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority's (Metro) Board Planning and Development Committee recommended the name New York Ave-Florida Ave-Gallaudet U Metrorail Station for the new Red Line station which is currently under construction near the intersections of New York and Florida Avenues in Northeast Washington, D.C.
"The renaming of this station is extremely important as it reflects our continued commitment to promote economic development and prosperity in this part of the nation's capital," said Jim Graham, Metro's Board Chairman.
Recently, the District of Columbia's Department of Transportation held coordination meetings with local neighborhoods and community groups for the selection of a new station name. These meetings involved the ANC 6C (location of the station), ANC 5C, the Near Northeast Economic Development Committee, the Uline Arena Revitalization Committee, and the D.C. Offices of Planning and the Deputy Mayor for Economic Development. Following these discussions, a general consensus was reached on the New York Ave-Florida Ave-Gallaudet U station name.
The New York Ave-Florida Ave-Gallaudet U Metrorail station is known as an "in-fill" station because it will be the first station in Metro's 27-year history to be constructed between two existing, operating rail stations - Union Station and Rhode Island Avenue. The train station will have two entrances - M Street N.E., and Florida Avenue, N.E. The station will have redundant elevators and improved signage and lighting.
Funding for this project ($103.7 million) has been made possible through a partnership that includes the District of Columbia, the federal government, and a special assessment district of area private land owners. While the station will not add miles to the tracks in the rail system, it will increase the total number of Metrorail stations in the regional system to 84. With the station under construction, naming it New York Ave-Florida Ave-Gallaudet U will not have a financial impact on the cost of constructing the station and appropriate signs. Final approval of the station name change is expected later this month when the full Metro Board of Directors is scheduled to meet and consider this item.
END OF RELEASE
Long and obscure names already include:
Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport
U Street/African American Civil War Memorial/Cardozo
Woodley Park-Zoo/Adams Morgan
Mount Vernon Square/7th St-Convention Center
West Falls Church-VT/UVA
Vienna/Fairfax-GMU
Morgan Boulevard (on the Largo extension) was originally named Summerfield. Its name has already been changed (as you can tell).
Another long name (luckily never existed) which was proposed was Friendship Heights/Chevy Chase and some people wanted Chevy Chase/Friendship Heights (even though the former was never part of the original name!)
Personally, I think New York Avenue-Galludet University is OK but not the long name being proposed.
I think the longest station name is Metropolitan Avenue-Middle Village, or maybe 74th Street-Broadway-Roosevelt Avenue-Jackson Heights, or perhaps Atlantic Avenue-Pacific Street.
The IRT station there is "74 St - Broadway."
It definitely has the longest signs I know of in the NYC Subway, even though the ordinal "st" does not appear on the signs, and "Av" appears in place of "Avenue."
I've made up a little "mock-up" sign. It uses the Askidenz font, but the desired effect can be seen in Helvetica and Arial.
71 - Continental Av - Forest Hills
Chuck Greene
Also, I think that the reason the memorial gets a mention in the station name is due to the fact that one of the station entrances opens directly onto the memorial.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Also, I think that the reason the memorial gets a mention in the station name is due to the fact that one of the station entrances opens directly onto the memorial.
I will also note that no such memorial honoring the contribution made by blacks during the Civil War existed anywhere in Washington DC until this memorial was proposed and built at this sight after the U Street Station opened.
John
That National Airport crap with the way those politicians made a big deal out of it just pissed me off. I bet they'll probably never even ride MetroRail to/from the airport. As far as I concerned it'll always be National Airport or DCA to me.
The patch just says NATIONAL next to DULLES.
Or to make this easier, DC could rename that intersection to be a Square or some sort and use that as the station name, like West Farms Square, Times Square, etc.
Which street is the most important there, New York or Florida?
Also, for NYC, do not forget Westchester Square-East Tremont Avenue! Also some stations were recently rechristened, such as 42 Street (6 Avenue Line) to 42 Street-Bryant Park, and Sutphin Blvd on the Archer Avenue line Sutphin Blvd-Archer Avenue-JFK (who does the TA think it is kidding?)
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
Imagine this 233 St-Our Lady of Mercy Medical Center
or 125th Street-MLK Blvd
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com, allisonb500r@aol.com)
David
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
some of these names got even longer over time!
As for AirTrain, I think it's a good train to have.
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
Go to Mapquest and type in the intersection. The Red Line runs along the west side of the RR tracks you will see just to the east of the intersection of NY and FLA.
The original planned name for the station was "New York Avenue".
The senators from the respective states disagree about that matter, and it has gone to arbitration.
AEM7
Mark
The main reason New York Avenue was attached to the station as a name in the first place was because most if not all of the redevelopment that was used as a justification to build the station is along New York Avenue.
A station name that truly reflect geographic location would be Florida Avenue - M Street Northeast, as the points of access to the station are off these two streets.
Frankly I like what Oren suggested "New York Avenue-Galludet University".
John
Also, the operators need not announce Galludet University, it just has to be on the maps and signs. ;-)
The funny thing is Rhode Island Avenue (B04) is closer to Brentwood then is the New York Avenue station. I hope nobody from the DC council is reading this.
Also, the operators need not announce Galludet University, it just has to be on the maps and signs. ;-)
As long as the station name is and how close it is to Union Station (B03) there might not be enough time for the train operators to complete the next station announcement before making the this station is announcement.
John
Besides, you could only get about two or three signs per side there with that name....
And why reroute the BLUE through Georgetown... the Silver Line's the new one, why not build THAT through Georgetown, and leave the Blue/Orange ALONE?
East of D & G Junction.
M Street NW, Massachusetts Avenue NW, H Streets NW and NE, Benning Road NE.
John
Morgan Boulevard as I recall was not the original name attached to this road when it opened. I vaguely recall it being called Summerfield Boulevard. The residential subdivision between Central Avenue and FedEx field is called Summerfield.
The road is named after the inventor Garrett Morgan who was incorrectly credited with "inventing" the modern traffic signal.
John
From what I understand, the road was renamed from Summerfield to Morgan Boulevard, and then Metro followed suit in renaming their station. You can't really fault Metro on that one.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
KISS - Keep it Simple Silly!
Tourist attractions should be listed on the system map, just like they are on older NYC subway maps (before the era of "The Map").
Mark
Since when you come up, all you see right away is The Smithsonian Museums.
99% of the exiting people are tourists anyway, so the name makes sense.
Mark
Hirschorn is closer to L'Enfant, National Gallery of Art is closer to Archives and Judicuary Square (latter avoids transfer from Red).
Since when you come up, all you see right away is The Smithsonian Museums.
99% of the exiting people are tourists anyway, so the name makes sense.
The United States Department of Agriculture Washington Headquarters buildings are on both sides of Independence Avenue between 12th and 14th Streets. The south building is at the top of escalators at the south entrance to the station. These two building dominate the area far greater then the Smithsonian Castle and the other Smithsonian building that are near by.
Mind you I am not suggesting USDA or United States Department of Agriculture should tacked on after Smithsonian on the signs.
John
Everyone knows where the White House is, and the McPherson Sq. station has signs saying "White House" pointing to the Vermont Avenue & Eye St. exit. (And yes, I St. is frequently written as Eye St. to avoid confusion with 1st St. [which is usually written as First St.])
As an aside, all the trouble about renaming the National Airport Station could have been avoided if both sides had just compromised on "Reagan National Airport", 6 extra letters + a blank. Big deal! That's what all the newspaper writers, broadcasters, and publicists call it anyway.
Actually, I'm waiting for Union Station to be renamed "Union Station/Georgetown Law School/Christopher Columbus Statue/Capitol North/Downtown Post Office/AFL-CIO HQ" :-)
Wait till "Van Ness/UDC/Lotsa New Embassies/Giant Food Store" becomes a new name.
The solution is to rename it J street. The problem with confusion between I and J is long gone.
There is more at Van Ness than just that. It used to be my home station.
Actually it's, "The church of St. Mary in the hollow of white hazel trees near the rapid whirlpool by St. Tysilio's of the red cave".
Now try...
Gorsafawddachaidraigodanheddogleddollonpenrhynareurdraethceredigion
Very well, but www.llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch.com has the longest single-word .com domain name!
And, you're forgetting some other long names...
College Park-U of Md
Addison Road-Seat Pleasant
Grosvenor-Strathmore
Franconia-Springfield
Gallery Pl-Chinatown
Compared to them, Vienna-Fairfax/GMU shouldn't even be on the list...
And should they ever go to Germantown, Georgetown, Aspen Hill/Olney, Mount Vernon/Ft Belvoir, Woodbridge, Laurel, Bowie, or Centreville, they do NOT overload the station names.
My issues with Vienna/Fairfax is that Fairfax is not really near the station nor is it really accessible by any form of transit other than the automobile from that location. The same goes for Woodley Park-Zoo/Adams Morgan. Both the zoo and Adams Morgan are 10 minutes walking away, uphill in the case of the former, and Cleveland Park is actually closer to the zoo! My issue with this new name is the fact it is extremely long and hard to say, not to mention somewhat confusing since the station isn't at the intersection of New York and Florida Avenues (but it isn't that far either).
Finally, with the airport, I wanted to use the "official name of the institution" and I hope in the pre Bob Barr days, you knew that the airport was in Washington. National Airport sufficed then and suffices now. The airport is technically in Arlington and at the time the airport was established in the 1930s, present day Arlington County (it was at one time called Alexandria County, I do not know when it was renamed) had already been established. But since the Federal Government owns the airport (it is leased to MWAA), they can call it what they want, and Washington is better than Arlington. Same reason Friendship Airport got renamed to BWI. No one had any clue where on earth Friendship Airport was.
When the city sold the airport to the State, it was renamed Baltimore/Washington International Airport because the state wanted to compete with the newly opened Dulles.
Lots of bucks later, we have a bigger airport that has rail access, which Dulles still lacks.
I'm not sure I understand the reasoning. With the cab folded up, it's no different from the cab on an R-62A single. If it's unsafe for the C/R to ever open the cab door, then why are C/R's on all cabs without windows (R-32, R-38, R-40, R-42) required to keep their cab doors open (and even if they don't keep them open at all times, they certainly have to open them to walk from car to car)? If C/R's on the C and J can mingle with the public while passing through some of the statistically most dangerous neighborhoods in the city, then surely C/R's on the 1 don't have to be locked up tight in lower Manhattan.
Aside from being inconvenient, this will delay service. I wonder if this is someone's sneaky way to reduce the effective capacity of the South Ferry loop so nobody will notice the actual capacity reduction when the new stub terminal is built.
(IIRC, it was the standard pre-year 2000 to have the C/R cab closed during passage)
FWIW, I always thought it was surely intrusive upon the C/R's position to have the door
folded up and allow passengers through.... so in a way I agree with this
G/O but........ consider the overcrowding in the front 5 as a result?!
By "dangerous" I mean:
Highest amount of crimes on that line
Passes through the most dangerous neighborhoods
People just feel it's "dangerous"
Thanks,
Julian
AFAIK, the only "good" part of the Rockaways is west of Beach 116th, going toward Belle Harbor and Neponsit. And there is no train service to that section. The other "semi-good" section would be the part of Far Rockaway down by Seagirt Blvd and/or near the Atlantic Beach bridge. And the train station is a pretty far walk to those areas.
I gotta stand up for my train, particularly in Manhattan!
Although they are not ritzy like the UES, the neighborhoods at the northern end of the "A" are rapidly gentrifying & are reasonably safe. This includes the area around these stops: 207, 200 (Dyckman), 190, 181, 175, 168. I've never felt nervous in any of these stations, or (with some minor exceptions) in the surrounding areas. Besides 125, the only other stop north of 59th St is 145, which isn't the best looking neighborhood, but isn't a war-zone either.
Now if you wanted to talk about the "C"'s stop at 163, then that's another story . . . .
SDB
Ok mr rosen...
Dr Martin Luther King Jr Boulevard and Frederick Douglass Boulevard
Dr Martin Luther King Jr Boulevard and 8th Avenue
W 125th Street and 8th Avenue
anyone of those :)
What should Amsterdam be renamed to, how about W.E.B. Dubois? or Thurgood Marshall?
Write to the New York Police Department and ask. Nobody here has access to that kind of information. People might try to be helpful and offer their opinions, but those opinions are based solely on perceptions and not on hard information.
David
Just to add, most of the crime is in the stations, not on the trains. And the volume of crime is not relevant, the rate is -- lots of pickpockets at Times Square, but because there are lots of people, not because your chances of being a victim are highest.
That said, the New Lots line goes through the highest crime neighborhoods in Brooklyn. It also terminates there, unlike say the A/C which has more people from less chaotic neighborhoods on the train. Even that area, however, isn't what it was a decade ago. I was much more nervous getting off the El on the south side of Chicago than walking around Brownsville and East New York, the murder capital of New York City.
Don't know if I'd do it in the other direction. Sitting on a train at the terminal a few minutes for the starting lights is one thing; standing on a corner waiting for a bus is quite another.
Yeah! On reported cases only...
The < M > would be.
Just last week, someone was stabbed to death on the platform of the "N", "Q", "R" and "W" at Union Square. Does anyone remember that? NO!
But just let someone get killed on the "A" and that seems to be etched in everyones' mind of stone until the day they die.
The diamond M.
I guess that would be Bedford-Stuyvesant. Not one of Brooklyn's best neighborhoods, but its bad reputation is ever so slightly getting encroached on by the success of Williamsburg, and the attempts to gentrify the Fort Greene and Clinton Hill areas south of it. So that only makes 4 or 5 stations in a bad area in the middle of the line, probably not enough to make G the worst.
G line rundown:
Carroll, Bergen - super-hip
Hoyt-Schermerhorn - seedy south side of downtown Brooklyn, but safe
Fulton Street - Fort Greene, right near BAM, very safe
Clinton-Washington - Clinton Hill, hip, safe
Classon - dividing line between CH and Bed-Stuy, sort of safe
Bedford-Nostrand - not awful, but not too safe
Myrtle-Willoughby - dangerous
Flushing - very dangerous (Marcy Projects)
Broadway - sort of desolate at night, but much better than it used to be
Metropolitan, Nassau, Greenpoint - super-ultra-hip and/or Polish, very safe
There's a security guard for Pfizer at the corner just as you come out of the station, and there are cameras in the station tied into Pfizer's security system. So yes, it's a bit seedy, but it's got 24hr security.
I'd say Myrtle-Willoughby is worse because it lacks security and it's at the other end of the Marcy Houses.
The residential area of Smith street (where brownstones are starting to creep into the $2Mil range) ends at 3rd street and turns into a very empty industrial area (large industrial lots and a few brownfields). I avoid this area only because it is too desolate for my tastes, though certainly not crime-ridden. On Court street, the next block west, it is residential with a mix of people trying to still be close to the trendy part of the neighborhood, and Italian and I think some Irish old timers. Probably pretty safe, even fairly late at night. Red hook doesn't start for several blocks farther south of there, but they have no other subway option, really. I don't use the stop much (only when I zone out and miss my stop) but I haven't run into any problems with kids with bad attitudes. On the other side of the canal it is a little seedy, some active industrial businesses, with some residenses just beyond it, working class hispanic mostly, no housing projects that I know of. 3rd Avenue has had prostitution problems in the past, but I think they've been cracking down on it. Not that bad a neighborhood, really, but I'd feel better about this area if there were more people walking about.
Lord help me but I do like the "seedy south side of downtown Brooklyn". That area seems to still possess elements and an atmosphere of the "old" downtown. It's a very good place to explore modern urban archeology, if you will. I love the stretch from the Flatbush Terminal west, along Atlantic Avenue and the streets north of the Avenue. Pacific Street is another gem.
I find it immensly fascinating to see how that section melds into Brooklyn Heights. There is nothing like it in any other part of the city. And the capper? It all ends at a nice natural barrier: the East River. For the student of urban development, at least, the whole dynamic of the area has to be nirvana.
--Mark
Wait a min, did I heard you said you felt safer in ENY than at the Hemptead. Then I guess you don't no much about ENY. Try spend few days in ENY and I gauranteed you'll change your storied.
What, and you don't think that stuff happens here? Get a grip!!!
Nope. There are no "shanty towns" along there. There's not even any hobo jungles. Not between C.I. and Brentwood. You might be seeing what's always been seen in Suffolk County, just a place thrown together, a "fort", where guys drink and carouse. It's a remmnant of the more rural years. When there were way more woods and undeveloped land. You used to be able to go from town to town "cuttin' thru the woods".
And there's always been both regular bums and mental patients who would be living in patches of woods when they were around. And there were enough "woods" to support the few individuals who actually wanted to live in them. Most guys knew or knew of a couple. See, there were the mental hospitals around there, and at times there were many thousands of patients. There were always a few wandering through the woods and fields that surrounded the hospital grounds, and where all us kids would be playing in. They would build little huts where they might sleep. It was a strange but damn interesting environment to grow up in, around those towns you mentioned.
But really, there are no concentrations of homeless folks living in the woods there. Maybe a few individuals but no large numbers.
The Montauk branch train sounds and horns are of a different nature. Somehow...it sounds more akin to hearing real long distance trains passing. From where I'm at it's actually about twice as long a distance from, say, Islip to Montauk as it is to Penn Station. So that eastbound train whistle you can hear could actually be from a train that relatively speaking could be only just getting into the journey, just really starting to make the miles. Even though it has already just traveled from Jamaica, a further distance already than most commuter trains have to traverse.
(It's comforting in a way to know that I could board a train from Islip sometime between 1 and 2 in the morning and go all the way to Montauk Point. To get off the train out there at around 3:30 in the morning...is an experience unduplicated anywhere else, I'd wager. As far as "experiences" go, one added bonus of that train is, it starts out on the Mainline and uses the old Central RR cutoff to go express from Hicksville to Babylon. Now there's a train ride that seems to be the product of a railfans imagination. Walking up the quasi-urban streets of Hicksville to the elevated train station and riding all the way out to the end of a hundred twenty mile-long railroad line. Where, at times, you could then take a long distance "ferry" to places like New London and Mystic, and to Block Island. Who needs "fantrips" with a reg. scheduled train like that?)
Plus, at around midnight I always hear a freighttrain trundling through C.I. Yet another type of locomotive, another type of train horn to hear. Makes me want to walk the streets at night, walk all night long. Ah well. Anyway, gimme livin' near the tracks of an active railroad anytime over living near an expressway.
ntrain, I've always wanted to do the reverse. Ride out to Montauk some summer evening on the Cannonball (especially in late June or early July when the days are longest) hang around for a couple hours then ride back on the red-eye train, the one that runs during the wee hours. (Currently the LIRR schedule shows a westbound out of Montauk at 12:58 AM on weekdays, arriving Penn Sta at 4:12 AM.) One of these days I will.
From the railfan perspective I've always wanted to see some different thinking applied to the train scheduling along the Mainline. Why not try something like, L.I.C., Jamaica, Floral Park, Hicksville, Deer Park, Ronkonkoma, Riverhead and stops to Greenport? Maybe if a third track is ever extended to at least Hicksville...
UMMM, excuse me, your bigotry is showing.
Peace,
ANDEE
You should learn how to research facts rather than making blanket assumption based on what you see on local news. Do you watch News12 The Bronx and compare the number of shootings there?
In the two year period 1999-2000 there was 1 murder in Freeport. There were 9 in Hempstead. There were 249 assaults in Freeport and 447 in Hempstead during that two year stretch.
Those violent crime rates compare favorably with New York City as a whole -- let alone individual neighborhoods. In 2003 alone, there were 32 murders in East New York and 29 in the 103rd Precinct (Jamaica).
And let's not forget that NYC is the safest large city in the U.S.
Have you ever been out of the NY/NJ metro area and seen a truly dangerous neighborhood?
Come on people, wake up. Documentaries such as Nightline, 60 Minutes and Dateline have shows on this topic of crime and drugs in suburban and rural areas of America all of the time. And guess what, a lot of the problems exist in UPPER MIDDLE INCOME households.
Oh please. The only place the E and J meet are at Sutphin and Jamaica Center, and while it's not the prettiest neighborhood, it is FAR from the worst neighborhood in NYC! It's not even the worst part of the J line! That's a new one. Jamaica, one of the worst neighborhoods in NYC. Gimmee a break! I also can not see Far Rockaway as one of the "worst" neighborhoods in the city either. Again "not pretty", but certainly there are far worse neighborhoods I can think of even off the top of my head.
This is the problem with threads like this, they are so perceptual and skewed. While there are no parts of the system that are dangerous during the day, there are some neighborhoods that I may not want to get off and walk around during the night. Maybe I am just hardened from being used to some areas. My railfanning has taken me to some of the worse neighborhoods in the city, and never really had a serious problem, except one minor one in the late 80's so I'm not even going to mention what line because it's irrelevant in today's system.
I can't believe someone said Jamaica where the E and J meet.
So your theory is just because this one person comes from the Far Rockaway projects, that makes Far Rockaway one of the most dangerous places in NYC.
Man, you really need to get from in front of that TV set and go outside for awhile.
Next stop on the famous Sea Beach is 20th Avenue.
-I guess where the G train makes it's bend between Myrtle-Willoughby and Classon is pretty hairy, along with the A/C meeting with the Franklin Shuttle.
-Where the L and the 3 meet and for a station or two around there is a bit hairy, but has improved over a few years ago.
-The South Bronx along the 6 an 2/5 lines, but even that's gotten better, and isn't anything to be scared of.
There are some others, but I guess that would be my top three. And it may also be a bit off now too because most areas of the city have gotten better. I may be thinking of 5-10 years ago even for the lines even mentioned here.
frowning at subject... I almost suspect which neighborhoods would be classified as bad... SAD!
Highest amount of crimes on that line
You have to elaborate on that. Because if you just do the amount of crimes then alot of subway lines seem dangerous. Crimes happen everyday, everywhere, that doesnt make everything dangerous.
Passes through the most dangerous neighborhoods
Then you say
People just feel it's "dangerous"
Then whats the point? If its just the way people feel then technically Tottenville could be the most dangerous neighborhood. In a sence I feel that lower manhatthan is a dangerous neighborhood, that doesnt mean it's actually dangerous.
See, here's the thing. I used to live on 114th. And back then, guys like that would've gotten a different vibe from me. This night I had a shoulder bag, going from the airport to the suburbs and looked, I'm sure, like "a white dude that ain't from around here." In other words, I looked like [Gulp!] a "vic". {Short for victim.) I think the only reason they didn't mug me was I didn't look scared enough. They may've figured, 'Gotta be a reason this guy don't seem all that scared.' Remember the thread about whats-his-name? The bad guys never know these days who might be packing a hand cannon. At least, that's the only thing I could think of.
But I would never go back to 125th St at that hour again. At least not on my way from the airport!
Regards,
Jimmy
(Am I late on this one?)
Traffic get you down?
Take the train to town!
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
I always liked the MTA "Going Your Way" billboard on the Park Avenue viaduct, right over the southbound lanes of the Harlem River Drive. Drivers stuck in morning rush hour traffic get to stare at that billboard, while watching the parade of Metro-North trains heading for Grand Central pass overhead.
Can anyone give some details of this line ?
That is not “light rail” but the EWR Monorail (aka “Airtrain Newark”). The ROW of the Newark-Elizabeth Light Rail (nowadays known as Newark Rail Link) through the Airport has not been decided on, but there would be but one station, at the outlying long-term parking areas, connecting with the Monorail just as the Northeast Corridor connects with the Monorail on the other side of US 1&9…
I don't know the exect working, but this is the main thing. I read this on Tuesday at work.
It came about an accendent that happen at E180st Yard. A train hit a car that was parked to close to the track. 5 subway cars and the passager car was damaged. It was a employes own car.
Robert
Peace,
ANDEE
On the M1/3s can the volume be adjusted?
On the C3 the PA can be adjusted I think (there is a knob labeled "horn").
Anyway why does it seem that the crew doesn't check the volume before they talk?
On the other hand, I had a C/R on the PJ line who talked so loud he made my ears bleed.
Anyone experience such problems?
To my astonishment, the agent declared that my train had actually arrived at 7:58pm, only ten minutes late! She didn't outright call me a liar, but she came pretty darn close. And since the train was only ten minutes late, I wasn't entitled to a refund.
For $157, not only do I arrive at my destination 29 minutes late, not only do have to spend over three hours on a train with bright lights and loud conversations in the Quiet Car, not only do I have to put up with a surly customer service agent at Penn Station, but I'm branded a liar for attempting to raise legitimate service concerns, because somebody's decided to forge the train's records.
I thought the airlines had poor customer service, but this really takes the cake.
I never understood how exactly they track arrival times. I remember I once took an Acela Express from Boston to NY that arrived 10 minutes early, but when I checked the status on the web later that day the train showed up as arriving in NY 1 minute late.
If it's any consolation, I don't think Amtrak normally gives refunds for trains that are 29 minutes late either. (If they did, they'd be refunding a good portion of their fares collected nationwide.)
Maybe that is the time it crossed the NY/NJ border - so technically it may have arrived in NY at 7:58 ;-)
Not that it matters. The timetable lists 7:48 for Penn Station, not for the state line.
When approaching NYP in the East River tunnel, the conductor came on the PA and gave a rather lengthy explanation of why we were late - specifically blaming MNRR, saying they "own" the tracks and give priority to their trains at the expense of Amtrak. That's well known to us railfans, but I've not heard it said on an Amtrak train PA announcment before!
Good on the conductor. I suppose they have now been briefed to spare no detail in explaining the realities of running a railroad on a shoestring to customers.
Do you actually have any objective evidence that this is true?
I have been on numerous MNRR trains that have been delayed by behind-schedule Amtrak trains in the way.
Anybody know why? Will GO transfers be distributed, like a few years ago when Broadway-Nassau was being rehabbed and the passageway to the 2/3 was closed for a while?
The M runs to Fulton this weekend, and the southbound platform connects to the east side of the station complex. Will it have access to the 2/3 or to the A/C? It obviously won't have access to both. (In other words, where exactly is the closure?)
Da Hui
Signs were few and far between (there were no signs on the trains themselves) and most C/R's didn't correct their usual announcements, although one announced a transfer to the M and J only (I guess he had seen the advisories about the A/C and 4/5 and he also knew that the M was supposed to be extended to Fulton, even though that ended up being cancelled).
I quizzed the transit worker on how I could get to the 4/5. He shrugged. Backtracking to Park Place and getting an A/C there wouldn't help, since southbound A/C's were running via Rutgers. Even worse, some 2/3 passengers were displaced A/C passengers, who took the E to WTC and transferred to a 2/3 to get to the Fulton Street complex. The booths should certainly have distributed GO transfers.
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=639095
Not sure. Probably a pedestrian bridge of some sort.
"And what Avenue is shown at the building's west side, where 4 or 5 buses are lined up in front of the building?"
Well, the yard runs East-West and is surrounded by 30th St, 33rd St, 10th Av, and 12th Av. The building you are talking about 10th on the east side, 33rd on the north, and 30th on the south. The one with all the buses is 33rd St. I think those are Academy. I know the ones on 30th are(right?)
The building is the Daily News HQ. The street with all the buses is 10th Avenue.
I thought the VFR corridor over the Hudson river was closed. Does this mean it's open?
Also is your friend a pilot?
I thought the VFR corridor over the Hudson river was closed. Does this mean it's open?
Also is your friend a pilot?
You ask too many questions.
When were these pictures taken???
Alright, I can surmise that they're recently taken, since the HBLRT tracks along the Hudson north of Hoboken are featured in one or two pictures. Assuming those are pics of HBLRT north of Hoboken, which I think it is, since in the one picture the HBLRT tracks are passing under the Lincoln Tunnel approach road, additionally you have one pic up by Weehawken. Also in the shot of West Side yard with LIRR features an M7 train, so that's gotta place it after this summer or so. Is that a McGinnis painted P32DM-AC just past Marble Hill? There's also no foliage on the trees, so I can guess that it's within the past 2 months or so. Given that the pictures feature have M7s through Penn, HBLRT north of HOB, and the lack of foliage they were certainly taken within the past few months. Certainly the photographs were taken after the VFR corridor was closed in the wake of the 11/9/01 attacks.
I thought the VFR corridor over the Hudson river was closed. Does this mean it's open?
I suppose he could have gotten the pics some other way, either one of those interminable tourist helicopter flights or an airliner coming into LGA or EWR. IIRC some flights into LGA fly north over the Hudson maintaining more than 2500 feet, then turn east and pass over Harlem (or thereabouts) into LGA's Runway 13/31. Of course that wouldn't explain the pictures of the MN train along the Harlem, since I think LGA planes turned off before that.
And I still don't know if the VFR corridor is open. Would any (more helpful) subtalker happen to know if the VFR corridor for general aviation planes still closed?
Also is your friend a pilot?
Alright, I don't care about that, I was just curious.
CG
You forgot the MN Bomba train heading toward Marble Hill.
http://www.railfanwindow.com/gallery/album84
--Mark
The Canal Street line was scheduled to open December 6, but was rescheduled to "early 2004."
BTW I think the play was not named "Trolley named Desire"
Plan 1: construction of the Tenth Ave Subway line. This line should be an extension of the 14th St line, running west and turning north underneath 10th Ave all the way to West 60th St. From there, it should turn east to a station near Columbus Circle (transfer to 1, 9, A, B, C and D lines) and further east towards a connection with the 63rd St connector, from where it could run to either Queens or via the Second Avenue Subway Line (if ever built).
Plan 2: construction of a light-rail/monorail line from the WTC site parallel to the West Side Highway all the way to 57th St, from where it could go to the 'Columbus Circle Transit Hub'. A 42nd St connector, connecting the Times Sq/42nd St station with this 'West Side Highway Line' with services going north to 57th St and south to the WTC site. Rather than a subway line, this line should be overground, and have more stops than a regular subway line, with smaller and shorter trains, running at shorter intervals (shuttle-like service). At the southern terminus, transfer should be provided with the future Fulton Street Transfer Station.
So, that's it for today, just let me know what you think of it.
plus, you run right into the Water Tunnel route-under 10th Ave from 60th st south.
As for the L, if it's gonna be extended, IMO,it should be extended up West Side highway and Riverside Dr to GWBBT, but then again, it may be reducndant as you could just add stations to the existing Empire line used by amtrak.
I don't care what it is, after doing 200miles on I-4 in 4 days, it could be a magic train for all i care. That'd be about 800 miles a month if i kept doing it, with it being my second most hated highway in the nation so far, I would have to vote the future bullet train as my favorite one(I love those random sunday night or monday morning closures).
Current favorite railroad: Norfolk Southern. (Honorable mention: CSX).
Favorite transit system: New York City, of course. (Honorable mentions: Washington Metro, Boston T).
Favorite Tourist Railroad: Durango & Silverton.
Favorite Transit Manufacturer: Kawasaki (current); Budd (historical).
Favorite All Time Locomotive Manufacturer: Alco. (Honorable mention: BREL).
Favorite Locomotives of All Time: Alco 424, British Deltic Class, British Class 37, EMD E8, GE U34CH.
Favorite Current Locomotive Manufacturer: GE.
London & South Western Railway
Current favorite railroad:
Chiltern Railways
Favorite transit system:
Even if we're only allowed freedom fries, for me it has to be Paris.
Favorite Tourist Railroad:
Severn Valley Railway
Favorite Transit Manufacturer:
Craven's of Sheffield
Favorite All Time Locomotive Manufacturer:
The Midland Railway Works, Derby (honorable mention: English Electric)
Favorite Locomotives of All Time:
Class 50 "Warship"
Class 52
Class 55
Favorite Current Locomotive Manufacturer:
If saying Paris hasn't got me killed, this sure will: Bombardier - their Class 168 DMUs are the best DMUs around:
Favorite Transit Manufacturer: Kawasaki and Bombardier(both for their low level boarding bi-levels)
Favorite Locomotive of All Time: GP38!!!!!
PENSYLVANIA RAILROAD
NEWHAVEN RAILROAD
DENVER REOGRAND NARROW GUAGE LINES
LONG ISLAND RAILROAD
NEW YORK CENTRAIL RAILROAD
Where do you recommend taking an out-of-town visitor to get a cheesesteak? The place must be easily accessible by SEPTA rail, subway, el or trolley.
Thanking you in advance...
I avoid those things like the plague! This is a better question for some of the other Philly dwellers, Mark Michalovic, SeaninTemple, and Mdlbigcat.
Of course there are the hackneyed favorites, Pat's and Gino's, which are kittycorner to each other on 9th where Passyunk and Wharton cross. Sadly that area is largely devoid of transit, other than the 47m bus and the 64 bus. You could walk from there to the 23 then ride one of those old dirty Neoplans down to Snyder, Tasker or Morris to highlight the deplorable bustitutions of electric transit systems that still haunt us.
If you were to ask me where to eat in general in philadelphia, I'd say Reading Terminal Market, which might also have good cheesesteaks, I know a few NY subtalkers got their's there last August, but I don't know how they liked them. I generally go to a place at 15th and Locust or so which has great corned beef sandwiches and vienna beef hot dogs, Pastrami and Things.
Sorry I couldn't be more of a help
Pat's and Geno's are not under consideration. I'm looking for REAL cheesesteaks.
Thanks for your reply.
Bob
Pat's has the right "grease" on the grill, like (NY equivalent) the special flavor of White Castle's. As to the cheezwhiz, I think it complements a cheesesteak much better than "real" cheese.
Sometime in the distant past, when dinosaurs roamed the earth, I imagine that cheesesteaks were made with what we used to call "sandwich steaks" and "real cheese." I'm not sure I'd like those.
And the bread is IMPORTANT. I think the definition of best cheesesteak in Philly is like best pizza in NY. I am in short walking or driving distance of a dozen or more pizza parlors, but to me, only one is "best" and my best might not be the same as your best.
Disclaimer: haven't been to Pat's in about a decade. Your results may differ.
A "real" Philly cheesesteak is with Whiz; provolone is for those sissy tourists. I've never been to either Pat's or Geno's, but out of the seven or so cheeseteak joints I've tried, my favorite is Jim's Steaks at 4th and South Sts. It's a 3/5 mi walk south from 5 St Station on the Market-Frankford with Independence Park and some other sites on the way, or 11/8 mi east of Lombard-South Sts on the Broad St Subway along happening South Street. Yes, they have provolone :).
ALSO, the Pizzeria is at the former terminal of the PSTC Ardmore line and the short train canopy is still in the back (last time I looked).
Q: What is a cheesestake?
A: What you use to kill a Philadelphia vampire.
But what is "real." In a place where you can probably find dozens of variations on cheesesteak, I think the term is "my favorite." If you were trying to get cheesesteak in a commercial place on LI, it would be an honest question: "where can I get a cheesesteak on Long Island the way it would be made in a regular, non-chain, sandwich shop in Philly?" Answer: so far the closest, but off by a few orders of magnitude from the local product is (of all places) Nathan's in Deer Park.
Other places don't worry about authentic as much as NYers seem to. In most of the country a Coney Island Hot Dog is a Chili Dog. Pizza is simply unrecognizable. And I have finally found a place in my area (Smokin' Al's, in Bay Shore) that serves barbecue and homemade mashed potatoes and collards (in a commercial place) that tastes anything like what I had in the South.
My favorite recent story about "real food" is a place in (IIRC) LA, where people take "Soup Nazi" abuse to get "real" Sushi at a restaurant run by a master sushi chef from Japan. Supposedly you'll be run out of his shop (with a Samurai Sword?) if you ask for a piece of lemon, or avocado in a roll, or don't eat the sushi in one bite.
But in Japan what is one of the favorite kinds of pizza? Ginger and Squid. Very authentically Italian. I guess Japanese people have learned how to enjoy their food without Authenticity Guilt.
Sean@TempleU
Ride to Grand Central Terminal, look inside and outside the landmark building. Then hop on the S/B #4 train to Borough Hall station in Brooklyn. Walk down to Borerum Place (that is the wide avenue), make a right and walk 2 blocks to the Transit Museum. Spend an hour or so, then walk up to Jay Street and hop on a Far Rockaway-bound A train and enjoy the greatest subway run over Jamaica Bay and into the Rockaways. Return back to Nostrand Ave, then go upstairs for a C local one stop to Franklin Ave. Take shuttle to Prospect Park and cross platform transfer (do not go upstairs) to the Q. Take Q over the scenic Manhattan Bridge and to Times Sqaure. Last, if you have some time, do a few runs up and down the speedy 2 and 3 from 96th st and back to 42nd st, checking out the new headhouse at 72nd st in the process.
I disagree with that recommendation. It takes very long time and the Atlantic Ocean is not at its best there.
After visiting Transit Museum, do the Far Rockaway A to Beach 67th st (the first stop in the Rockaways), return back to Rockaway Blvd in Ozone Park. Cross-under to outbound side and take the Lefferts A train this time. Take A to last stop, Letterts Blvd and exit to right corner on Lefferts Blvd (use the right stairs facting the S/A booth when exiting.) The Q10 goes directly to JFK and when you get there, you can see the Airtrain. Make sure you get off near an Airtrain station and ride up and down to Jamaica and Howard Beach segements. You can ride for free, but if you exit at Howard Beach of Jamaica, it's $5 to pay your way out the system. You can exit back at any Terminal station or Station C/Federal Circle. NOTE: There is NO public transportation at Station B/Lefferts Blvd and it's a long walk to Aqueduct/North Conduit on the A line.
And if looking at Queensboro Plaza, you think it's complex, just imagine it once had twice as many tracks! The same goes for Broadway Junction - another 3-track line used to go through there, but it is now gone. Also at East 180th St, there used to be a 4-track commuter RR that ran parallel to the 2/5 lines, you can see the former station directly next to the 2/5 platforms. The 5 to Dyre Ave runs on the tracks once used by this commuter RR, the stations are nice and the ride is smooth and scenic.
At least NYCT realizes that there is life outside of Manhattan. This weekend's L line G.O. is postponed until next month.
As you are well aware, there's a lot of weekend work going on, and each GO has to be scheduled around the others. There's no such thing as a convenient weekend for a service outage (I guarantee the very same business owners will complain next month). The GO was probably rescheduled because something unexpected came up, perhaps the cold weather -- I highly doubt it had anything to do with these unhelpful complaints.
Incidentally, Williamsburg traditionally refers to the area adjacent to the Brooklyn end of the Williamsburg Bridge. It's only in recent years that the real estate interests have borrowed the name and used it for the area near the L, which my Hagstrom terms Northside. Williamsburg proper would have had extra service if this GO ran, with both the J and the M (offering direct service to Fulton Street, normally unavailable on weekends). I guess the real Williamsburg doesn't count anymore.
You point is well taken, are Long Island City businesses complaining when #7 line faces frequent weekend shutdowns, especially Vernon Blvd/Jackson Ave station?
Of course, you know I agree that transfer announcements should be correct.
I: work between 8th Av and tubes
(K) Queens Plaza - 6 Lcl - Bway (Bklyn) Lcl - Canarsie
(L) Bedford Av - Atlantic Av
Use M14 bus in Manhattan, B39 bus extended to Lorimer St station.
II: work between 1st Av and De Kalb Av
(K) Queens Plaza - 6 Lcl - Bway (Bklyn) Lcl - Canarsie
(S) 8th Av - 1st Av
(S) Myrtle Av - Atlantic Av
Shuttle buses Myrtle/Wyckoff via all L line stops to Bedford Av, then to Marcy Av station.
III: work between Lorimer St and Broadway Jct
(K) Queens Plaza - 6 Lcl - Bway (Bklyn) Lcl - Canarsie
(L) 8th Av - Bedford Av
Shuttle buses Marcy/Bway - Bedford Av - Myrtle/Wyckoff and Myrtle/Wyckoff - Bway Jct.
IV: work between Halsey St and Sutter Av
(L) 8th Av - Myrtle Av
(S) Livonia Av (free metrocard transfer "temporarily" added to 3 train) - Canarsie
Shuttle buses Myrtle/Wyckoff - Livonia Av.
V: work between Sutter Av and Canarsie
(L) 8th Av - Atlantic Av
Shuttle buses Atlantic Av - Canarsie.
As in the Northside of the former City of Williamsburgh.
Williamsburgh was a city (not just a village) before it was included in the city of Brooklyn?
Da Hui
Maybe, but signal jobs are hell on service, so these folks should be glad they are getting it over with by 2006. With all the work that has been done, the Canarsie will be the snappiest line on the system.
Other lines, including the Culver, are facing years of work in the future, and will subsequently be affected by future work on 6th Avenue, Queens Blvd, etc. The Canarsie line is separate, so when it's over, it's over.
The L falls within this area.
It's only in recent years that the real estate interests have borrowed the name and used it for the area near the L, which my Hagstrom terms Northside.
What do you think it's the north side of? And did you also notice Southside? Nobody calls it that. Hagstrom is notoriously inaccurate.
The J is plenty important to those who live near it, in Williamsburg proper.
Marcy Avenue is not Williamsburg "proper," whatever that means.
Neighborhood names don't change overnight just because the real estate industry tries to move neighborhoods to increase sales. Neighborhood names are defined by the people who live in them.
So what? Williamsburg isn't 5 blocks long.
Neighborhood names don't change overnight just because the real estate industry tries to move neighborhoods to increase sales.
So tell me what North 7th Street was called before the 1990s? And remember, you have to use what the people call it, not what Hagstrom calls it.
(It's possible that this is an example of two distinct neighborhoods with the same name, much like the two Flatbushes.)
The only question this would answer is what the neighborhood's boundaries were before the 1990s. I can ask people who lived their before the 1890s, but that means absolutely nothing today.
It's possible that this is an example of two distinct neighborhoods with the same name, much like the two Flatbushes.
That makes sense.
The folks in the "New" Williamsburg are from, and tied to, Manhattan. I worked with one woman from there on a census project. I took her over to Graham Avenue, one of the most important and vital commercial areas in Williamsburg. Not only had she never been there, she didn't even know it existed.
At the time, she hold me, the talk in the bars and clubs was fear of the J/M/Z shutdown -- fear that the J riders would be riding "their" train. Given than, I don't think you are going to see folks from, or going clubbing in, the "new" Williamsburg taking a bus down to Washington Plaza and hopping the J over to Manhattan.
Not that they stress that point. The good thing about New York is that we are liberal enough to have to cover up our bigotry.
I know 2 different people whose nearest stop is Lorimer and both refer to their neighborhood as Williamsburgh.
One has owned several houses in the area over the last 10-15 years. The other has owned a house there for at least a few years, but I don't know how many.
Northside is referred to as Northside. I remember Southside as Los Sures in the 1990s, much like Alphabet City was Loisaida in the 1980s before the realtors got a hold of it.
Case in point, their new 2004 NYC street atlas has the subway lines and stations towards Stillwell, on the map and never removed.
I would assume they're going to postpone the 7 line GO. All those trains have to lay-up underground, or they may not be ready to go on Monday morning.
David
But that's not what happened. Nowhere does the article state that NYCT rescheduled the work because of complaints. In other words, NYCT rescheduled the work for some entirely unrelated reason (the weather?), and a local politician took credit.
Cancelling a GO costs a lot of money. Do you really think NYCT would postpone a GO at the last minute simply because a few businesses were complaining about the loss of service? Of course not.
http://www.straphangers.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=004777
January 31 is a Saturday.
(Sorry Brendan - I beat you to it again.)
Kind of hard to do that as both programs are on the same channel.
Is FOX covering the Super Bowl this year, or is it CBS? I'm hoping its FOX, as their football coverage is superior to those of the other networks.
:)
I guess what I ended up writing makes some sense, but what I really meant to say was: "The three networks that carry football also carry the rights to every third Super Bowl."
Peace,
ANDEE
Perhaps some of the other disappointed "out of towners" might want to join in and suggest that CBS give this a national showing somewhere - especially as compensation for those of us who had to endure that awful "Reagans" thing on SHOWTIME (which CBS/Viacom also owns). :)
And you know this HOW!?
It was originally to be a single, hour-long special. Instead, they are doing several half-hour specials throughout the year.
I'm looking for REAL cheesesteaks; not Pat's and Geno's.
Thanking you in advance...
Frank Hicks
Anyway, those RTM places always have HUGE lines regardless of quality. If you want time to both eat and railfan, go somewhere else.
Here is the link to the Philly cheese steak - http://www.bestcheesesteaks.com/cheesesteaks/pa.htm
However, it was always my opinion the best Philly cheese steaks were those purchased in the suburbs. To my mind comes, I think it was Tony's in Fort Washington, just over the Bethlehem Pike bridge - near the Reading train station. There was a good shop in Bridgeport, but I don't know if they are still there - Franzone's, formerly DeJohn's.
Otherwise, I can't help you.
When I was back east during Christmas, I wanted for a cheese steak or hoagie, but with all the other stuff going on, didn't get one. Well, there is always the next trip.
Always remember the secret to the good cheese steak or hoagie is the roll - Amoroso, that is!
Jim K.
Edgewater, Chicago
formally of North Wales, PA
Frank Hicks
Incognito
In Southwest Philly, there has to be a good place.
Remember the secret to the good cheese steak or hoagie - It's in the roll" the Amoroso roll that is.
They have a Philly cheese steak out here in Chicago. The rolls are not italian rolls, or I mean "good" italian rolls, and secondly, they make you wait up to 15 minutes for your order.
I've told them if you were making steak sandwiches in Philly, and make the customer wait 15 minutes, you would be out of business. Most good places in Philly turn out the sandwiches in short order.
This is from memory of course, as I have lived in Chi-town since 1996.
Jim Kramer
formally of North Wales
How about.......Pittsburgh.
HAHA
Mark
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
Hey how about the Lancaster Dutch eatery in the Terminal? Anybody ever eat there? It looks good, but kinda heavy.
RIP LIR
Pleasant memories of working Elton's place.
I could get it driving out heading east to LI just about where the Grand Central Pkwy meets the Van Wyck & Queens Blvd.
Last time I and my wife listened to it in the car, it was "Gee, the new wave oldies station!"
Which, if I remember correctly, was Disco 92 WKTU until it suddenly shifted one day to K-Rock.
CG
For those of you in the city who have no idea of what you're missing and expressing the proper gratitiude for missing it ...
WGNA-FM: THIS WEEK'S TOP 25 COUNTRY SONGS
25. Get Your Tongue Outta My Mouth 'Cause I'm Kissing You Goodbye.
24. Her Teeth Was Stained, But Her heart Was Pure.
23. How Can I Miss You If You Won't Go Away?
22. I Don't Know Whether To Kill Myself Or Go Bowling.
21. I Just Bought A Car From A Guy That Stole My Girl, But The Car Don't Run So I Figure We're Even.
20. I Keep Forgettin' I Forgot About You.
19. I Liked You Better Before I Knew You So Well.
18. I Still Miss You, Baby, But My Aim's Gettin' Better.
17. I Wouldn't Take Her To A Dog Fight, Cause I'm Afraid She'd Win.
16. I'll Marry You Tomorrow But Let's Honeymoon Tonight.
15. I'm So Miserable Without You, It's Like Having You Here
14. I've Got Tears In My Ears From Lyin' On My Back and Cryin' Over You.
13. If I Can't Be Number One In Your Life, Then Number Two On You.
12. If I Had Shot You When I Wanted To, I'd Be Out By Now.
11. Mama Get A Hammer (There's A Fly On Papa's Head).
10. My Head Hurts, My Feet Stink, And I Don't Love You.
9. My Wife Ran Off With My Best Friend, And I Sure Do Miss Him.
8. Please Bypass This Heart.
7. She Got The Ring And I Got The Finger.
6. You Done Tore Out My Heart And Stomped That Sucker Flat.
5. You're The Reason Our Kids Are So Ugly.
4. If the Phone Don't Ring, You'll Know It's Me.
3. She's Actin' Single and I'm Drinkin' Doubles.
2. She's Looking Better After Every Beer.
And the Number 1 Country and Western song of all Time is:
1. I Haven't Gone To Bed With Any Ugly Women But I've Sure Woke Up With A Few.
Schenectady has a perfectly decent NPR station. Can't you receive it?
For anyone who actually CARES: Smallbany area radio
I'm not suprised bout the truckers gettin off at the arena. I knew I would pull over for a concert if I was pullin a load through the town and could get a good seat. I actually might get a ride with my friends dad in his rig to a concert, and this guy is a true cowboy. Cowboy hat, belt buckle, truck driver. The whole school, even me, couldn't stop laughing. YEE-HAW!
There really is such a song. Every time the lead singer sings that line, you hear a mooing sound.
I'm just wondering: Why wasn't the handle "Subway" taken long ago?
It was hilarious.
Julian
Maybe people don't want to be know as a sandwich place?
I guess NYCT finally figured out on how will people access the G line from Queens Blvd local stations since there is no G service east of Court Square this weekend and next.
If not, the local tracks at Queens Plaza are probably under construction. That's why the R has to be diverted and the G has to be cut back. Passengers from the G going to local stops can take the E to Roosevelt and backtrack on the R.
Also, there were no G trains on Queens blvd. Local riders from 36th to 65th had no direct way to get to Queens Plaza, or the G train.
The station renovations at Pelham Parkway, Gun Hill, and a couple of other stations are in full swing. I suspect something at Gun Hill that warrants this G.O..
Here are my ideas for a "CityPass".
1-day MetroCard $7
unlimited rides on local buses and subway
1-day "CityPass" $12
unlimited rides on local buses, subway and SIR trains, Metro-North and LIRR in city limits
1-day "CityPass Plus" $18
unlimited rides on loacl buses, subway, SIR, Metro-North and LIRR, plus PATH and Roosevelt Island tram
Weekend CityPass
valid from 8PM Friday to 3AM Monday, same as CityPass
CityPass would be sold only at MetroCard Vending Machines, LIRR/MNR TVMs and selected vendors only.
2 Manhattan Bound trains run express from 3rd Ave to East 180th st./5 AM Saturday to 5 AM Monday, Jan 10-12.
5 Bronx-bound trains run express from 3rd Ave to East 180th st./5 AM Saturday to 5 AM Monday, Jan 10-12.
I think they are in need of a proofreader.
My next thread will prove your point.
;-)
eBay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2216829194&indexURL=0&photoDisplayType=2#ebayphotohosting
nycsubway.org:
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?6811
See for yourself!!
The seller also is located in Baltimore.
However the photo in question came from Joe T.'s collection not mine so I'm assuming he has a dupe of the original slide. From the auction description this print is fairly old and may well have been made from the original.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The last three shots on this page were scanned with the Minolta; the others were done with the old Epson. These are all done with the new scanner... the first two were 127, the others 126. The most dramatic difference shows here... the first three are with the old scanner, the last two with the new one. You can see the difference in quality. This one of our younger grandson was scanned from a negative... don't recall now if it was Kodak or Fuji.
B&H price was under $400, by the way, when I purchased it in March.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I know the first two, but who's Jerry L.? Not Jerry Landau?
The only time I dozed off on the subway was during the Ultimate Ride last year. And that was on the N at 2 PM the following day and I know there we would outnumber anyone. This man on the E train was not as lucky, but thank God he is OK.
You sure about that Chris?
Took alot of photos reciently of the gun hill road 3rd ave el portion before its fully gone, A few SIR photos that I managed to do while there a few days ago, Quite a few AIRTRAIN Photos and in-cab ride videos from the first day(The ride to go back to jamaica from Howard Beach was having a problem, I was one of the passangers who encountered door problems).
But anyways, Just saying Hi.
Oh and if it makes a difference, My name is Steven and I'm 18.
If you use any photo editing software, you can resize you pictures to, say, 800x600 and save them as a medium-quality JPEG and the size will be reduced to about 100K
I am Carlton, a.k.a. Cleanairbus a.k.a. Incognito
and Welcome to Subtalk
Something interesting you can report about it?
Looking @ your handle: Pokemon fan?!
It wasnt big at the time. All it was that when I was at Howard Beach with my dad, the first car doors wouldnt open. And I wouldnt get on the 2nd car as it was jam-packed by actuall customers rather then railfans like myself and others. If you really want to hear something, you would proberly wanna know about the WTC First day incident, I was on the train and when we entered the tunnel, we hit a flood light which was glitched, and when we speeded up to exchange, our train hit a too far out communication post (the train rammed into it from the side and you could see the voltage sparks) and when the guy told the T/O to stop, they said we crushed the thing and then they pulled that tube out of service which then crowed the Tube going back to WTC. Boy was that something. Unfortunatly I dont have any photos and it wasnt on the news. :/
Unfortunatly theres really no train-train photos as it was raining and the photos I did take of them were deleated as they came out bad. Anyways, enjoy what I did take.
Theres more stuff I'll post later that I found on my computer that I took with my digital camera.
If you're getting on a bus, and all things being equal(no one on board, no puddles, etc...) Where do you sit? Left, middle, front, back. Maybe Aisle or window. And don't count those cities with the buses that have the row of 3-5 single seats, we all take those anyway.
Example, myself:
I always subconsciencely go to the left side. And on the Gillg Advantage, I always have that middle step seat, not on the low floor, but not on the high-floor portion, when available. Either way, I normally take the left side by the rear door, sometimes very back.
I wish I had some psychology basis to explain what the means about one self though, be interesting. :)
Anyway, when I am Riding on the bus, Riding on the Bus, I'm sittin next to bums, unless there's an empty seat, which I hope dosen't have pee on it.
I know you're reference, hahaha.
This is what happens when you try to post and someones distracting you.
Granted!
And besides, knowing a person's first name doesn't mean one also knows what they achieved. The full name is useless and cumbersome.
;-)
Just kidding...
And in Brooklyn, it should be called Tubman Street, and not Harriet Tubman Boulevard, although I'd rather rename streets that aren't already named for famous people. If there are people who say there are streets named for slaveowners in Brooklyn, but no slaves, then rename one of those streets for Tubman and dishonor the slaveowner. Fulton is a great American and deserves a street, so does Harriet Tubman.
Full names are used because people might not know who is on the signs, makes it easier. Would anyone know who Powell is if they used Powell Avenue? Although Alvin C York Avenue would have emphasized the alphabetic "A" and the renaming at the same time.
Also most renamings generally aren't expected to be used on addresses(AC Powell and Fred Douglass are exceptions to the rule) . Dr Martin Luther King Jr Boulevard is still 125th Street even though MLK is an "official" name. To bring this slightly on topic imagine the 4/5/6 station being called Martin Luther King Blvd-125th Street
NYC considers AC Powell to be a secondary/permanent CO NAME to 7th Avenue in some documents
http://hellskitchen.net/comm/cb4/cb4-1296.html#street
Then again NYC's maps, documentations and street signs don't always match up. Take a look at the eastbound Cross Bronx Expressway Extension(East of Bruckner) on oasisnyc's Aerial maps(or straphangers' maps) and see what I mean. Even Hagstrom conforms to these "errors". Mapquest still calls AC Powell 7th on the maps
---
Fulton is a great American and deserves a street, so does Harriet Tubman.
---
Isn't Fulton Street going to be "spared" in some parts of Brooklyn, or double signed. They will both be streets in Brooklyn. Fulton's name is also in Manhattan and the Bronx. Tubman also has an Avenue in Manhattan, part of St Nicholas Avenue in Harlem.
----
And in Brooklyn, it should be called Tubman Street, and not Harriet Tubman Boulevard, although I'd rather rename streets that aren't already named for famous people.
----
Why a Street or Avenue instead of a Boulevard? Blvd's are the "Cool" thing now. Unless you want them to match the streets they renamed. Even Manhattan's N/S Avenues can become Boulevards. You think Malcolm X Boulevard should have been Malcolm X Avenue?
I wonder if Amsterdam Avenue should also be known as W.E.B Dubois Boulevard?
Most streets aren't exactly renamed anymore, just Co-Named, makes it easier.
Then there is Duke Ellington Blvd at W 106th Street, many people still use the number, even though it isn't on the signs near Central Park anymore since the late 70s
Not in this thread, although I wouldn't mind a double signing (like 6th Avenue/AotA), it would actually conform to some maps and addresses that still use 7th. But actually getting rid of AC Powell, I am not asking for that.
what the city seems to think of 7th Avenue's status in Harlem
http://hellskitchen.net/comm/cb4/cb4-1296.html#street
I know there are some streets that seem to have secondary/co-name permanent names, like Harry Van Arsdale, Jr. Avenue (Jewel Avenue) in Queens, and Cristoforo Columbo Blvd. (part of 18th Avenue) and Vincent Gardenia Blvd. (part of 16th Avenue) in Bensonhurst. The secondary signs are blue, like the temporary/one block renamings, but they seem more akin to Fashion Avenue.
Does anyone know when a stretch of East 8th Street became St. Marks Place and when the other upper Manhattan names were applied to the numbered/lettered avenues: Columbus (9th), Amsterdam (10th), Lenox (6th), West End (11th), York (Avenue A), and East End (Avenue B)?
Did any Manhattan renamed streets cause a change in the name of a transit stop (to bring us back to the subject of the message board)?
9th and 10th Avenues(north of 59th street) were renamed sometime in the late 1800s like 1888 or 1889 or sometime around those years
Avenue A was renamed York Avenue in 1928 for the (Then Still living) Sgt. Alvin C York. Maybe they should have called it Alvin C York Avenue(emphasis on "A")
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/streetnecrology/AveA/declassified.html
also includes some 4th Avenue information
4th Avenue is renamed Park Avenue South in 1959 by the City Council from 17th to 32nd Streets
Some station exits in Harlem(that I saw) on the 2/3 mention Malcolm X Boulevard for the exits instead of Lenox
www.forgotten-ny.com
Manhattan Street became 125th Street.
Wasn't just the wonky bit of 125th St called Manhattan St?
Ah, is "wonky" another UK word?
The wonky bit of 125th Street was called Lawrence Street.
Has anyone heard from NYCT if the G train will be extended to Church Av later in the year.
til next time
As to "busfan"'s original question, no, there are no plans to extend G service to Church Avenue in 2004. Beyond that? Anybody's guess.
David
The reality is that the G should run to Church Avenue specifically to gives its passengers the transfer at 4th Avenue for the BMT (sorry I can't drop the way it should have remained) services instead of being dumped on a cold night to wait for the next F.
David
2) When the Manhattan Bridge re-opens, the B division will be putting out 7 trains more than now. This will stretch car availability even further. Any extension of G line service will require additional cars that will not be available for several years.
In other words, what amount of "headroom" is there?
During rush hours, the F is frequent enough that it isn't much of an inconvenience for G passengers to transfer to the F to go that one last stop to reach the BMT. Nights and weekends, it's an unnecessary burden. In weather like this, even F passengers would benefit by being able to get out of the cold sooner by hopping on a G to Carroll or Bergen.
Late night passengers transferring between the G and the W have to take an intermediate one-stop trip on the F, contributing an extra wait of up to 20 minutes (the scheduled wait is "only" 10 minutes southbound and only 4 minutes northbound, but trains don't always run on schedule -- if the northbound F is running 5 minutes late due to track work, will the G wait for it?). Extending the G to Church would solve that problem.
(The G already runs light to Church on Saturdays. Why not make stops along the way?)
But the transfer at 4th Avenue is a major transfer; especially since the F does not run to Coney Island right now. So the arguments above do not hold water off peak hours as Church Avenue was always meant to be the terminal for this branch not the artifical inconvenient screwy relay at Smith 9th which delays F services intermittently.
But again you basically have the idea that the G train does not serve areas where politicians are active or important enough to sway the MTA planners who never take into consideration the needs of passengers; especially at those times when train service may be as infrequent as 3 tph.
The other possibility is that so few people (other than railfans) want to connect from the 4th Ave Line to the G that politicians don't feel it's an important issue.
Also, if you have an unlimited you can take a relatively short walk from Pacific to the G's Fulton St stop, or from Dekalb to Hoyt-Schermerhorn.
It was probably more of an issue before the G was truncated to Court Square. Note that politicians haven't been able to get that decision (which affects far more people) undone despite loud screaming, not becuase they are powerless but because more people benefit from the truncation of the G than are harmed by it.
Or that it goes against the grain to offer extended off-peak service, and the idea simply hasn't occurred to the right people or doesn't fit into the models that NYCT planners generally use.
(Service plans shouldn't be set by politicians!)
Thank You
A Division:
1 and 9: Elimination of The 9 and All 9's converted to 1's:
With the 9 Eliminated the pointless Skip Stop Service on the 1 is eliminated and increased 1 service serving all stops allows the crowds not to build up at skipped stations along the line.
2 and 5 Bronx Thru Express Changes:
The East 180 Street Interlocking is the cause for major delays. 2 trains either get held behind a 5 train entering the interlocking for the express route or the 5 must wait for the 2. The same problem occurs during the afternoon rush. By swapping the expresses the 2 and 5 will not interfere with each other at the 180 Street Interlocking, smoothing out service problems. A pilot program can be started where some 2 trains run express from 241 Street.
B Division:
Queens Boulevard Emergency Improvement Plan:
E and F line Queens terminus Swap:
The E and F need their terminus to be switched in order to shorter then length of the F line and also to allow the opportunity to make the full use of the V line extension to 179 Street even better. 179 Street would allow the increase in the number of E trains to run during the day. F and E trains will run express between 71st Avenue and Union Turnpike during Rush-Hour, Midday, and Evening Hours to 10 then they will run local after 71st Avenue. With the E becoming a full Queens Boulevard Local after Midnight, while the F remains express.
V Line Extension to 179 Street:
By extending the V to 179 Street from 6:30am to Midnight the V can push the E to be the Hillside Express During the Rush Hour, Midday, and Evening hours. With the expansion of Jamaica Yard the Hillside Express Tracks will be un-occupied and the Express Tracks between 179 St and Jamaica will open allowing the F and E to be express. The people along 179 Street have an option of a slower V train that would be emptier and a 6th Avenue service that serves 53rd Street Tunnel or The Hillside Express. The V would become a "feeder local" picking up people between the local stops then feeding them to the E and F.
G Line Extension to Queens Plaza:
To extend the G to queens plaza would become a ballet. With CBTC however the ballet becomes much easier. It can be done with Block Signaling, but precision. The G would enter Queens Plaza from Brooklyn on the Northbound Local Track, quickly dump the train and a relay crew for the next train would board. The Train would get the lineup for D5 track then switch over, then with the major headways the G has, the train can dwell on D5 track until it is time to leave, entering on Southbound Express Track leaving quickly, no dwell.
B and C Northern Terminus Swap:
The Switching of the B and C line Northern Terminus has caused a decreasing in the options in service for those along St. Nicholas Avenue and the Grand Concourse. If the C and B change terminals, the advantage to this is that people have a choice now on whether they can take a 6th Avenue Line or an 8th Avenue Line. Transfers will decrease, and line ridership will increase.
C extension to Ozone Park-Lefferts Boulevard:
If the C is extended to Lefferts Boulevard, the A would only have 1 destination, decreasing the amount of confusion for A riders. Also with more A trains going to 1 destination there is a higher frequency to JFK Airport and the Rockaway’s. The C would run from 6:30am to Midnight Everyday
A Line to Ozone Park-Lefferts Boulevard at Nights and Implementation of the H Round Robin Shuttle Again:
Sending the A to Lefters Boulevard would cut the total trip time of an 8th Avenue/ Fulton Local A train, making the trip on the crews a lot easier. Also the number of trains to do this trip can be decreased saving costs. As a result the H line can be reimplementation and only 3 trains’ needs to run at 25-30 minute headways due to tremendously little demand in the Rockaway’s. The H train can be a 4/5 car OPTO or 4/5 car train with a Conductor and motorman. The H Train can be scheduled to connect with A Trains so passengers going to JFK could make a smooth transfer.
Bob Sklar
1. Extend the V to Jamaica Center
2. Mention on the map that a few (E) trains go to Hillside Ave instead of Archer
3. Slowly over time decrease the number of (E)s that go to Archer and increase the number that go to Hillside.
4. Map stays the same, but now we have about 2-3 TPH of E going to Archer and about 12-13 TPH going to Hillside. Now which one is express and which is local after Continental is up for debate.
(E) Hillside Local, QB Express to FH, 53 St - to 179
(F) Hillside Express, QB Express to FH, 53 St - to 179
(G) QB Local - to FH
(R) QB Express to Van Wyck, 63 St - to JC
(V) QB Local to Van Wyck, 63 St - to JC
E+F+R=30 TPH
:-) Joke?!
N Bwy
-----
The Switching of the B and C line Northern Terminus has caused a decreasing in the options in service for those along St. Nicholas Avenue and the Grand Concourse. If the C and B change terminals, the advantage to this is that people have a choice now on whether they can take a 6th Avenue Line or an 8th Avenue Line. Transfers will decrease, and line ridership will increase.
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This I like, except what about weekend B/C service? will the (C) go back to Washington Heights on weekends, or stay in Harlem? Express service north of 145th Street would decrease on the (A) if not done correctly.
----
As a result the H line can be reimplementation and only 3 trains’ needs to run at 25-30 minute headways due to tremendously little demand in the Rockaway’s
----
Service decrease, NOT good, trains should run no more than 20 minutes apart outside of G.O.s and delays. The Rockaways are treated like stepchildren already. Rockaway Park has it worse than Dyre Avenue most of the time
If anything the (C) should go to Lefferts 24/7, being a Shuttle at night to Rockaway Blvd
If you want to make the crew work a lot easier, run the (2) express 24/7, it is a long line like the (F).
Or - revolutionary idea - the A train runs express to 207th St, the B train local to 168th St and the C train local to 205th St. The D train wouldn't run (this would require B on the West End and D on the Brighton).
Plus the C would be too long, and where would the B go at night? 168th Street? or 36th Street(Brooklyn)
The end of the 9 would be nice, though.
Thank You
Okay, terminate some local trains at E180th St and relay on the NYW&B express tracks.
Thank You
Would your plan result in merging delays if E and F trains were not run in a 1:1 ratio? I think it might although in fairness the TA isn't the greatest at scheduling/routing to avoid such delays, e.g., 7 local merge with 7 express at 33 St. in the a.m. rush and the routing of 2/3/4/5 through Franklin Av. Could it reduce merging delays between the E and V at Queens Plaza?
I do not see why you want to extend V service, which should instead be extended to Church Ave when there are enough cars to do so. More flexibility would result from extending R service to 179 St. That done, the G could be extended to Forest Hills although I don't see why that is called for. I think the G should be terminate at Court Sq. all times. What you call a "ballet" could throw any day's commute into chaos. I don't know much about CBTC signalling but even assuming it can "dance" like you say, it is extra switching on a very busy stretch of tracks that could be avoided by a realtively easy transfer at Ely Ave. I instead suggest that the terminal capacity of Jamaica Center be improved. How to accomplish that or why Jamaica Center seems so inefficient at turning trains I don't know.
As for a Hillside Ave. express I don't think that is called for. 169 St. a major bus to subway transfer point is unserved by the express. I remember express trains actually switching over to the local tracks there before Jamaica Center opened). Why is 165 St. terminal where it is anyway? It would make more sense if the Jamaica Ave. el still existed or if the Archer Ave. line is to be extended.
They should've sent the R train to Jamaica Center; then no-one would've lost anything.
(E) 179th St via Local Express
(F) 179th St via Thru Express
(R) Jamaica Center via Local
This is the only one I completely agree with
2 and 5 Bronx Thru Express Changes:
People like the 5 more than the 2 because Lexington is more important. The better solution would be the TA's failed plan in 2000 where all White Plains trains (either 2 or 5) would be express and Dyre would be local.
B Division:
Queens Boulevard Emergency Improvement Plan:
E and F line Queens terminus Swap:
I agree with this one, because it balances out Archer, but I disagree with the Hillside Express
V Line Extension to 179 Street:
The time saved by the Hillside express is miniscule compared to the time lost by having to stay local to Queens Plaza (or lose a seat).
G Line Extension to Queens Plaza:
This would NEVER work. CBTC is not about switching.
B and C Northern Terminus Swap:
What do you do nights and weekends about the A north of 145th?
C extension to Ozone Park-Lefferts Boulevard
OK
A Line to Ozone Park-Lefferts Boulevard at Nights and Implementation of the H Round Robin Shuttle Again
The round robin was horrible torture upon Rockaway passengers providing no benefit to anyone. It was thankfully killed and should not be restored.
What do you do nights and weekends about the A north of 145th?
There are 2 switches at 145th St station that allow A trains to run local north of 145th without interfering with the B or D.
As far as the 1/9 business is concerned, anytime a major stop like 207th street is served by a train running only during rush hours, then something isn't right. IMO, the skip/stop has to go.
As far as the 2/5 goes, either the two branchs will have to be "straightrailed" as you proposed, or Unionport Yard will have to be reconfigured so as 5s don't cross in front of 2s in the AM or PM rush (PM was messier b/c 5s were being shunted over to the local track at East 180th just so they could get to Dyre easier, holding 2s up between the East and Tremont.)
The problem posed by switching the E/F terminals is the express service west of Union Turnpike. At Briarwood/Van Wyck, the F would have to stay on the express track to avoid tying up Es coming off the Hillside branch (and Vs too, if the hypothetical extension is enacted). Otherwise, one is asking for major delays to and from Manhattan on an already long trip for eastern Queens passengers. Moreover, this plan only pays off if there are more people headed for SE Queens to/from central midtown on the F than E right now, forcing a transfer at Union Turnpike.
Sending the G to Queens Plaza and turning it on D5 is asking for trouble even for midday trips, because the there are simply too many Vs, Es, and Rs going through the area at that time.
I too like the Ozone Park C service. At least then everybody knows that all As are to Far Rockaway (with every 2nd/3rd train to Rockaway Pk during rush hour.)
That's pretty impressive for a railroad system. I wonder if even the LIRR can match that.
The busiest stretch on the LIRR is the stretch from Jamaica to the Babylon Branch flyover just west of Hillside.
Since not all trains have a time point at Jamaica we need to make some estimations. As a proxy, we can use Penn / Flatbush / Hunterspoint / LIC arrivals between 8 and 9 AM, and Jamaica terminations between 7:40 and 8:40 and then divide by 6 to figure out the average number of trains seen in a 10 minute period.
From the south shore, there are 13 from Babylon, 4 from Long Beach, 4 from Far Rock and 2 from West Hempstead.
From the north, there are 5 from Hempstead, 3 from Oyster Bay, 14 from Hix/Hunt/PJ, 7 from Ronkonkoma and 2 from the Montauk.
So standing at the eastern edge of Jamaica Station, you'll see 54 trains in 60 minutes -- or the equivalent of 9 when compared to the 13 you saw on MN. There may be a single 10 minute stretch that you'd see 13, but one can't be sure without actually standing there (and it's just too darn cold to do that).
Then the question becomes -- is what you saw a daily occurrence, or an anomaly -- perhaps there had been a service disruption of some sort and the trains were stacked up. Unfortunately, our friends at MNRR don't publish their branch schedules online -- but I do have one for the New Haven line. There are never more than 4 NH line trains scheduled to arrive GCT in a 10 minute block. I always assumed that the NH was the busiest branch (based on the size of the departure board at GCT -- how scientific of me...) -- so if that's correct, that might mean you saw a combination of frequent service combined with some residual from an earlier delay. I'll try to remember to grab the other lines when I go through GCT again next week.
But whatever the reason -- 14 in 5 minutes is railfan nirvana.
CG
Actually, in the Long Island tradition, maybe the diesel coaches should be "split levels," since, like a split-level house, you enter on the main floor, then go up or down to the main areas of the "house." :)
Of course, Woodside also has the 7 train, but you can get lots of elevated shots at lots of locations.
Relativity applied to railfanning. :)
I saw them in 5 minutes, but your point is of course entirely correct. I got about 10 minutes worth of observations in a 5 minute period, assuming the incoming trains could make it from 138th to 96th in the same 5 minutes as my train made it from 96th to 138th. And I counted my own train as well.
But I'm still impressed. First of all, 13 trains in 10 minutes on 3 tracks is pretty good for a railroad. The subway doesn't do any better than that.
Secondly, I would be interested to know if there is any other way to see 14 moving in-service railroad trains in a 5 minute period? It's not easy to achieve. I have my doubts about the Jamaica Station area because there is really only one track inbound from LI that has a constant stream of trains; the lines through southeast Queens aren't as busy.
Are you thinking specifically about the flow of trains operating counter to heavy traffic? Or that you might see moving in five minutes from any fixed or moving vantage point?
If its operating in the direction of light traffic only, the line on Park Avenue might well take the prize, especially if you're on a moving train, since the shared trackage at Jamaica only extends for a little more than the length of the station (probably about 1/3 mile maybe) before the lines merge and break up east and west.
But if you're sitting in Jamaica, watching trains in one direction only, and allow 10 minutes (for the lack of motion) the LIRR could probably be in play. Remember you have trains coming from two (and a fraction for old Montauk) physical branches immediately west and three physical branches east, representing trains to/from seven branches further east, not counting Babylon and Montauk as separate.
I was surprised by the small number of stations served by each train, and the small number of trains stopping at each station. I don't know how that can be organized without delaying other trains using the same tracks. Also I didn't count Amtrak trains.
Between 7:45 AM and 8:45 AM the number of arriving trains is 50.
They stagger the trains cleverly so that expresses don't get held up by locals. You really have to spend quite a bit of time looking at the timetable to see how they do it. I suggest looking at the Harlem Line in the AM rush, since that's a single inbound track until Fleetwood. It is pretty amazing - they get 15 trains running through Bronxville on a single track in the pick AM hour.
The trains "cascade" in peak hour. Picture them all starting one right after the other from GCT in the afternoon peak, the first one serving the half-dozen local stations at the end of the line, the next serving the stations closer in, the next stopping at the ones closer to that, etc. This isn't exactly what happens, but it keeps the semi-expresses out of each other's way.
The expresses on the three lines share the inner express tracks until they split. As far as I know, the station master's office routes the expresses and locals around one another to get them into the platforms as required. This morning we held at New Rochelle for an incoming local (we're on a Sunday schedule for the snow). God only knows what they did in the days of diesel and those two loop tracks. These guys and gals are geniuses.
They run 3 tracks inbound in the peak AM rush, and 3 outbound in the peak PM.
I have looked more closely at the Hudson and Harlem lines, and the cascading is just as you describe. On each line there are quite long gaps, after the shortest distance train of one batch and before the longest distance train of the next batch.
These lines are unusual in that they have many stations, heavy demand in peak hours, but only two tracks and no branches.
On the New Haven line there are no obvious gaps, but I think there must be additional tracks for at least part of the way.
I have tried to relate Metro North to London's suburban lines, but I can only think of a few London lines where there is any form of cascading, and even then the cascades don't have multiple levels.
Another difference is that London rail termini, unlike Grand Central, do not have "waiting rooms" where trains can spend their middays. All trains that arrive must also depart, so you could not have three out of four tracks going in the peak direction.
It's 4 tracks all the way to New Haven, except for a brief period where the line branches off from the Harlem Line. One track is under long term rehabilitation in CT at the moment, but it's defintiely 3 tracks everywhere.
"Another difference is that London rail termini, unlike Grand Central, do not have "waiting rooms" where trains can spend their middays. All trains that arrive must also depart, so you could not have three out of four tracks going in the peak direction."
MNRR trains simply repose on the terminal tracks. They rarely get shunted off to a yard. Surely even in London a few trains can just sit where they are and wait for the psot-rush period to move out?
Admittedly, GCT has a huge number of tracks in passenger service; roughly 50, or enough to store an entire peak hour worth of trains.
And the local track at New Rochelle has the occasional off-schedule Amtrak semi-local train getting in the way of the MNRR trains.
I think you may be right, but if so it's the exception rather than the rule. Short distance trains usually return for another load.
GCT has a huge number of tracks in passenger service; roughly 50, or enough to store an entire peak hour worth
Most London main line terminals don't have enough platforms to hold trains for extended periods. An extreme case is Charing Cross, which has six platforms and handles 25 TPH, all of which must pass through one track in each direction. Nearly always the number of trains per hour greatly exceeds the number of platforms.
Not really. On the Southern Region, a bit of that is done at Cannon St (as that station's really only useful in the peaks in peak direction - all other trains that go there only serve it as they can't fit into Charing X). Likewise 2 trains lay up North of City Thameslink in the morning and wait for the evening rush.
Perhaps the best examples of this kind of thing happening are Paddington and Marylebone.
Paddington has about as many platforms as trains leaving it every hour. Although it's less laid back now Heathrow Express goes there, you do get trains standing in the station for long periods of time.
Marylebone has four huge long platforms. During middays and evenings there are trains stabled in the platforms and the service is provided by 2 to 4 car DMUs at the far ends of the platforms. Marylebone certainly has seen better days.
That is actually a small yard (an underground one at that) - they certainly can't lay-up trains on the Thameslink tracks or in the platforms, since there are only two tracks, carrying 8 tph each way in the middle of the day. I think the yard used to be the Smithfield freight yard years ago when there was freight on the Metropolitan line [serving the old wholesale meat market up above - one that sold beef, pork and lamb, not the other kind of meat market (8-) ].
However, I think trains can be laid-up in the terminal platforms at Blackfriars station, as only a half-hourly train terminates there offpeak (the Catford Loop train), and that needs only one of three platforms. Sensibly, they use platform 3 for that, so that there is cross-platform connection between southbound Thameslink trains and the Catford Loop trains. Platforms 1 & 2 aren't used middays.
Usually commuter trains don't wait in main line stations all day, but nor do they always return in passenger service.
Here is a simple example of a London terminus where many more trains arrive than leave in revenue service.
On the London Tilbury & Southend line, a long-distance commuter line serving the area of Southend (one hour east of London), the number of passenger trains arriving at Fenchurch Street station between 8 and 9 AM is 20, whereas the number leaving is 8. And considering the period from 7 to 10 AM, 47 trains arrive but only 24 leave.
So where do the remaining trains spend the middle of the day? There must be some storage sidings, but I'm pretty sure they are not close to Fenchurch Street station, which is in the middle of the City of London where land values are very high. Perhaps they are stored somewhere in the east end area two or three miles to the east. It is also possible that some early arrivals could return empty to pick up another load of passengers, which would allow the line to run with fewer trains.
Here's one:
1757 Marylebone to Kidderminster (arr 2051; non-stop to Bicester North (1846))
1800 Marylebone to Bicester North (arr 1910; non-stop to Beaconsfield (1825))
- connects with Aylesbury shuttle at Princes Risborough
1803 Marylebone to High Wycombe (arr 1845; calls at various stations from Northolt Park onwards; 1835 at Beaconsfield)
Southbound, same in reverse. Fast trains leave Leicester at .00 and .30, semi-fasts at .05 and .35, and the *next* fast train nearly, but not quite, catches the stopping train up by the time it gets to St Pancras.
Nice, when it works. Unfortunately MML's timekeeping has deteriorated so much in the last year that it often doesn't (8-( .
On the other hand, despite our weather being almost like NYC's over the last couple of days, MML is doing o.k. this week (8-) .
I hear you have horribly cold temperatures down to -3 Celsius. That's been our HIGH for the last 3 weeks, with a few minor exceptions.
And I'm sure our friends up north can pooh-pooh even NYC's cold temperatures.
I am not so sure about that argument.
Assume for simplicity that all trains go at the same speed.
When on board a moving train, he saw 14 trains in 5 minutes, which is 10 minutes worth of trains going only in one direction.
If he had been stationary he would have seen 5 minutes worth of trains going in two directions, which would 7 + 7 = 14.
Except that my train was on the only outbound track, and there were 3 inbound. I couldn't possibly have seen 7 outbound trains in 5 minutes on 1 track.
But if there are that many R142s and the occasional R62s running on the 4, where have all the R142As gone?
Is it possible, and this is just a guess on my part, that these R142As from the 4 aren't seeing as much service now because they are being prepared for the supposed transfer to the 7 line?
Or, did the R142As have some kind of problem and they had to be taken out of service?
I rode a R142A 4 train to and from school today, and other occasions in past weeks.
This stop is Buhre Ave. The next stop is Middletown Rd. This is a Brooklyn Bridge bound 6 train.
The sign starts flashing Buhre and Middletown a lot faster than normal. We pull into 28th:
This stop is Buhre Ave. The next stop is Astor Place. This is a Brooklyn Bridge bound 6 train.
A woman near me wanted to know if she was on the right train... and so another day on the R142...
The R142s never get this screwy... =p
(when going uptown at 96th Street).
A new twist in the botched software on the R142 6 trains. The trains barely work in the bronx. Transfers to the 6 local and 6 express are not neing announced, 6 express trains tend to have a silent opening at parkchester and not announce anything until the announcemnts are manually reset (this happens going to PBP and manhattan)
Just posting news...
old-->new
"161st-Yankee" --> "161st-Yankee Stad"
"149st G.C."---> "149st Concourse"
"138st G.C." --> "138st-Concourse"
No car numbers, sorry.
Very intersting indeed
Hint: these photos were all taken on September 14, 2003.
They should correct the incorrect weekend transfer announcment at 59 Street. And whatever else is wrong. I don't care how the stations are displayed.
Regards,
Jimmy
Regards,
Jimmy
C/R's on the 2 almost never correct the announcements at Times Square, 14th, Borough Hall, or Atlantic -- I ride the 1/2/3/9 almost every day and I haven't heard a corrected R-142 announcement in months. Do the C/R's on the 6 bother?
Regards,
Jimmy
You and me both! XD
Which is exactly why it's such a shame that it takes years to make a simple update, and even then the announcements are still not correct.
Oh yeah? Great!
Everything works out in the end.
BTW, with this pattent can you think of any operational problems?
And I'm not sure that I would want to sit in the larger train with a hole through the middle.
Two trains could go back and forth on the same track. But with each type of train going one way, trains would have to be taken out of service when they reached the end of the line, unless some other way could be found to return them to their origin. A circular line would solve this problem. One type would go clockwise, the other counter-clockwise!
How do the wheels pass through each other?
4 rails: standard gauge inside broad gauge.
Bob Sklar
seems an even handed account
Huh???
I've emailed back and forth with Bob, and he's struck me as a few bricks shy of a load - and while I *greatly* admire him for his efforts, it can be indicated that his "people skills" and "political skills" (MOST important) were somewhat lacking ... STILL ... what about the cars, the history, and everyone else involved? I *KNOW* what it's like on the receiving end of a political futtbucking - been there, done that too ... but what about those who WERE caught in the backfire? Any justice for THEM? :(
Oh boy...let's not get into that any further. :)
Having not seen the condition of the street in question before the DOT stepped in to remove the tracks, I'm not taking a position on whether the DOT was justified in its action.
They were just taking another step to close him down (the first was the trucks that took away the pile of ties & rail).
Look at the photo elsewhere in this thread.
They are on the bulkhead that goes to the pier where the cars are inside.
To be fair, that picture is part of the project off to the side of the street (on the curve toward the pier). Here is a picture of completed work in the street:
Here's a photo I took which I'll caption "The end of the line":
Thats My 2 cents
It could also be a large corp. who wanted to build on the land there & intergrate the trolley to give it something different then all the other places in town. But it's too late for that too.
The Transit Museum is supported by the MTA but if it didn't have membership it would have close up long ago (as it almost did in the 1980s).
Bob's trolley also had an extremely low profile - very little community involvement, so when the times turn against him you don't see any neighborhood support.
I really feel for him and all his sweat, but perhaps we should look towards the folks trying to integrate a trolley into the Brooklyn Riverfront park as the real future, and hope they can hold on to the cars.
If he had matching funding in place and was more organized to have more track in place and a real group that run the trolley's regularly, then someone would have kicked in with the bucks to fix the pier. Hell, the developer himself has been leasing the space to him for peanuts (free?) but how much long can he wait? The trolley line was supposed to draw folks to Red Hook but who really knows about it but for us on this board???
I wish Bob D. can work with the new group and salvage this instead of saying the cars will need to be cut up.
The developer would likely choose best value - scrapping would cost money & still require the metal to be trucked away, with a little offset by the return of the metal sold. Selling the cars intact would be a better value because you would need the trucks and machines anyway to get the cars out - perhaps by barge??
I think Bob diamond's organization should declare bankrupcy. That would put much of there preceeding on hold and allow time for a plan to decide what to do with the "assets" - not just the cars in Red Hook but also the cars in the Navy Yard where he owes back rent. He has got to stop the bleeding and he needs professional advice QUICK!!
If you can't get a trolly off, I doubt you could get a car on. (Otherwise they could just tow the bastards) And
what, you don't think people would take the trolley to go grocery shopping? That wouldn't serve the grocery store well? I'm sure they'd love to have some sort of good transit, I don't think many people from the wealthy nearby Cobble Hill and Park Slope areas are going to take the red hook bus to get there. (And they don't all have cars, parking is tight there)
But then again, since the world is out to get Bob Diamond, you might be right.
Out of sheer curiosity, what equipment has been scrapped within the past 20 years out of spite? I can think of two cars in Ohio that might apply, but in my experience most historical equipment scrappings have been done because the equipment was in extremely poor condition. Any examples would be appreciated. Thanks!
Frank Hicks
IND R-6 #1208 was scrapped out of spite. This museum car was retained because it was the car Fiorello LaGuardia piloted when the 6th Ave subway first opened in 1940.
Some guy named Feeley saw this car in Coney Island shops awaiting compressor work. Legend has it he blew his stack at the sight of what he called "old junk". He ordered it scrapped and made sure NOBODY made a move to save it.
It was scrapped......well......out of spite.
Bill "Newkirk"
Should the MTA be playing favorites with languages? If they're willing to put up signs in Spanish, they're leaving out all of the other languages that exist in NYC! What if all the other foreigners started complaining that the MTA isn't doing enough to meet customer needs of people who speak languages OTHER than English and Spanish? What if they feel it's wrong for the MTA to translate signs for the Spanish speakers, but not for anyone else?
Im emergency situations, like when the (7) wasn't running to Main Street at all, the MTA put up handwritten signs in Chinese and Korean as well.
I think the MTA should stop translating signs altogether. All new immigrants should be learning to speak English. Translating everything just tells them that they don't HAVE to learn English, because politically correct companies will try to play down to them by catering to THEIR language.
What's your opinion on this?
The West Side IRT, for example, has multilingual signs warning tourists getting off at South Ferry to move to the first five cars of the train. Do you honestly think the MTA should junk these helpful signs out of fear that "all the other foreigners" would complain?
Anyway, why criticize the MTA for being practical? They're trying to communicate important service and safety information to customers in the most effective way. Under the circumstances, it would be "politically correct" to let practical considerations get trumped by some ideological view about immigration policy.
More realistic would be to print on the multilingual edition to put a little * by South Ferry on the map, then at the bottom write something along the lines of:
* pour descendre à South Ferry, etc etc etc
Do you know french, russian, or japanese, so If you wanted to ride these systems should ya learn how to read all the languages. I'm sure someone in Russia, France, or Japan is writing the same thing in some other forum, "If they're coming why don't they just learn the dang language".
Da Hui
Canada is an officially bilingual country; both English and French are spoken in parliament. But the province of Quebec, anxious to preserve the French language, has gone against federal policy by prohibiting English language signs in some places.
I know wentworth from the southbeach had the 1 door platform.
I'm going to Mt. Pleasant tomorrow because its also a really short platform, but by how much really.
What other platforms are there that were extremely short?
Photos?
Bellport
Medford
Yaphank
Before (around 1993)
And this was on a good day! The station really looked desolate and run down, worse than the photo looks. The platform above was not asphalt, it was just dirt and cinder (even if it looks paved above).
I don't doubt that it platforms two cars, if you say so. But any time I've seen an eastbound stop, the first car stopped and opened a single door. Maybe they've gotten with the program, I don't know.
I'm sure that will never happen at 22nd Ave-Bay Parkway on the Culver line.
Regards,
Jimmy
I know I asked, but I never did get a answer, whats its length really, and even though I'll be there tomorrow, are there any photos of the station? Please reply, thanks.
Regards,
Jimmy
But anybody else know? Any other stations, how about aplication trail or what about Appalachian Trail, any photos of that station? Its a few stops past mt. pleasant but since of the schedule on the stations being whacked, I cant do both in 1 day due to me schedule aswell. >_>, Also any photos of the Manitou station?
Thanks for everybodys help in answering me, I really do appreciate it.
Seymour
Ansonia
Beacon Falls
http://as0.mta.info/mnr/stations/station_detail.cfm?key=167
It looks like a potential winner to me...
CG
But any 'personal' photos would be nice really.
But inlike the most of the others, Mt. Pleasant is electrified.
Breakneck ridge is also interesting, though uses diesel power and same for applachain trail.
Is it permissible to post these pictures that I am sure the TA would want to keep classified?
Thanks for your assistance.
1436-No casualties. Most of the deaths took place in the rear of the lead car, and possibly the front of the second car.
And yes, I'm NOT kidding ... GOP intends to show "America" WTC over and over again in favor of re-upping the "Chief." ... DOUBLE :(
This just in.........
Cheney's secret, undisclosed secure location is actually on the largest moon of Jupiter.
O-Sam-O can't get there, Towelheads aren't allowed where you can't face Mecca.
Pictures of damaged cars are particularly interesting to me, so maybe I'm biased.
If you're asking "Is it tasteful to publish them?" that's a different question.
Then again, I wanted to post them without any malicious intent to the TA, and without any disrespect to any deceased who may have perished within the cars themselves.
All of you posted some very persuasive answers, but unfortunately, they seem to be split down the middle. With regard to the person who said lots of pictures of wrecks appear in books, those pictures may have been part of a press report or otherwise made public, and were used specifically for historical reference in a book. It wasn't like some random person with a camera came around and took some pictures of "injured" subway cars that weren't meant to be seen for general purposes by the general public.
In the end, I guess I will err on the side of caution and not post them, unless I can find a site specifically devoted to these matters, and then donate the pictures to that site for historical reference purposes only.
Any suggestions?
Also, I don't know how they can "classify" the items. The cars were more than likely purchased with public tax monies.
Meaning no disrespect, the public has the right to know. The truth is out there.
However, you ever notice after a plane crash, the airline always spraypaints the name and logo off the airplane, even though we already know what airline it was.
Speaking from experience, from a legal standpoint, the NYCTA probably has no basis to prohibit publication of such photos taken in an area to which they gave the public access, just because it is embarassing.
However, you're asking a different question: would making these pictures public have a negative effect on relations between the TA and the railfan community. I can't say. Since this bothers you, instead of guessing what would annoy the TA least, just ask them.
If it ever does get to the point where I feel I must share them, I will make sure to ask the TA to ensure I am doing the right thing by all. Guaranteed.
David
Go ahead, ask again, will the G go to Church Ave. like the rumor you heard???
Sean@temple
#3 West End Jeff
No switch heaters mean frozen switches. You bet the subway has switch heaters.
Bill "Newkirk"
#3 West End Jeff
But TOMORROW should be magic day to see if those heaters work on the points ...
The temperature is at 0 degrees Fahrenheit at my house in Hastings-on-Hudson. I'm probably going to be a few degrees below zero come morning.
#3 West End Jeff
Frank Gifford remembers taking a bite out of his coffee.
It reached a balmy 33 degrees Fahrenheit at Central Park in New York today. Finally, a little bit of a thaw. Tomorrow, it might get up to a few degrees above freezing, though an inch of snow is expected. Not enough to use the snow-thrower. In the meantime, I bought some items that I needed for the lawn mower from Sears.
#3 West End Jeff
Come see the softer side of Sears!
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Heaters? What are those?
The boiler went out in my building this morning, just as I was about to jump in the shower. It's still out. As of 40 minutes ago it's 5 degrees at LGA, dropping to about -1 overnight, with wind chills around -25.
It's starting to get a bit nippy in here. Maybe I should sleep on an R-32.
#3 West End Jeff
Sorry to hear about the building blinking out - another part of the fun of upstate living is that if the boiler craps out (ours did yesterday) it's break out the tools, break out the blowtorch and fix it yourself. The advantage of course is that you get your heat back on a whole lot sooner than if you had to depend on someone else, but the downside is it's YOUR butt that's on the cold cement floor trying to figure out what the schnizit went wrong, squirting fuel oil all over yourself and having to be VERY careful about where you point the blowtorch. Turned out to be fouled points and somehow oil froze underground. Had to go and install new pipe out to the tank at -15F. Hopefully won't be doing THAT again for a while.
Good thing alternate side's suspended on Monday or it would get a parking ticket.
Chuck Greene
Thank goodness we live in the sunbelt.
Now I remember back when I lived in da Bronx when it got down to plus NINE and folks were FLIPPING OUT. How bad was it in da chitty?
Chuck Greene
You WIMPS! If it makes you feel any better, Watervliet is pretty much a ghost town now - our proud armed farces now depends on CHINA and PAKISTAN to make our noble weapons ... I know *I* sleep better at night knowing that Halliburton will keep us safe and that Al Qaeda would NEVER ship a defective weapon to our armed farces. :(
But yeah, it be cold. Can't imagine any "diaperheads" planting bombs in Latham tonight. :-\
Take care, Unca Kev,
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
M-m-m-m-mmoooooo-oo-ooooo.
But Yo! Yo! Yo! MOMENTARY SWITCH ***ON*** with a vengeance! :)
#3 West End Jeff
Regards,
Jimmy
Regards,
Jimmy
What gives?
I once went shopping in -21 degree weather (actual temperature, not wind chill). That was fun.
I remember working up in Smallbany, N.Y (Selkirk's favorite capitol town), when it hit -30F. Your engine in your car turned over like molasses was in the crankcase. And don't forget how inefficient
your car's battery is at that temperature.
Chuck (I hate winter) Greene
But then, I don't go to South Canada in the winter.
Did you ever have that Brooklyn Dodger cap made for you?
Sheet no. In six weeks comes the thick of it...and then some. It's like, we can only remember cold days, and cold days are all we can look forward to. No biggie, just wear the long johns.
#3 West End Jeff
FWIW last Monday our daytime high was 3 above. If you don't like the weather out here, wait five minutes.:)
Downtown they don't exceed 20 mph.
The Logitech Gibberish Wireless maybe?
Selkirk's got one too.
But then, Sea Beach Fred did say in this post that he was going to "give you a buzz tonight."
: )
I am looking forward to this. Hopefully too, I will have in possesion of a PDA so I can post messages on the fly.
Give up some inspiration shots!
I kid you not....
The local government doesn't need snow plows, that's what MR. PLOW and the PLOW KING are for.
You'll get yours ... bring your shorts and your T-shirt with you, we'll take ya for a ride. Depth of coldness is about 2-3 weeks off, so by the time you land in fun city, it'll be on the upswing back up to about where it is now. And while you're a quivering bowl of frozen jello, LicolN will be dancing around you in his shorts, cackling. )
Bring in the brass monkey.
Even -20 is rare out here. On the front range and eastern plains, anyway. The mountains are another story.
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Here's hoping they're ready to spray alcohol, make certain them compressor tanks ARE drained and things are left chugging until it's over. The week of the 18th is when we typically hit our peak cold, so we're merely "warming up" for it at this point. Those of us way upstate are amused by the whining about +15 tho'. :)
#3 West End Jeff
Chuck Greene
#3 West End Jeff
Rule number ONE of springs ... you MUST select the CORRECT tension for a spring so as to not do REALLY nasty things. Like "slack adjusting" on a subway car, the PURPOSE of garage door springs is to EQUAL the force of the door+gravity throughout its travel. Placing the incorrect spring tension will cause all SORTS of problems - on subway car braking as well as garage door operation.
Springs are rated in the number of pounds of force they "store" in them. "Overrating" your springs will cause all sorts of problems. There's a proper spring "force" and there's all the WRONG ones. Replacing a 150 pound pair of springs with 200 pound springs buys you nothing other than replacement of the gearing and motor. On subway cars, it can result in improper pressure or damage to the housings. Metal fatigue is real, and harsh temperatures may cause premature failure. However, had the spring not developed a crack in the first place, wouldn't matter.
In order to maximize the life of your "opener" though, the PROPER amount of counter-force to the weight of the door must be installed. To check the spring tensioning, you DISABLE any mechanical drive. You OPEN the door half-way and if your tensioning is RIGHT, the door will stay put. If you have to much, it'll go up, too little, it'll fall and the speed by which it moves determines how far off you really are. Most springs have mounts with adjustable "hooks" that will let you set the tension for the door to remain at "half-staff" ... put in too STRONG a spring and it'll never adjust properly.
With the PROPER spring and the proper setting, no matter WHERE you park the door, it'll stay put. Won't move anywhere in its travel. If it favors "up" then you've got too much spring. Wants to fall, not enough. Any other calibration, well ... unhappiness ...
Just wanted to throw this in - this is part of "mechanics" I've learned the hard way ... that's why you don't want ME tweaking yer train. :)
Chuck Greene
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Good Luck to you all----Stay Safe---Stay Warm---
Mark
The R42's are leaving in about 1-2 years anyway so it doesn't matter.
til next time
til next time
So i would always hands down say the federal thing happens first, Mars.
I'm just wondering how many more tax cuts it'll take to pay that big bill to go to Marvin-town.
How long do you think it would take to deploy our troops to take out those pesky martians. I forget the #, I think it was like 4 out of every 5 things we send to mars has problems or disappear, whereas we have no prob anywhere else.
Ya gotta admire the boy ... the WEEKLY WORLD NEWS has already covered the "attack of the earthlings" and the repercussions already - all of our "invading forces" have been FOUND and DEALT WITH ... makes me wonder - maybe Osama's hanging out there and those missing weapons of mass distraction are actually sequestered on MARS and Colin Powell's being sent on the first ship out to FIND them. (grin)
All I can say is that it would seem that Shrub has joined his daughters and fallen off the wagon (as Vice President DICK would say) "BIGTIME" ... If TWU brothers and sisters have to do a community whiz, time for the White House to do one too ... boy's been suffering a case of subDUCKtion ... CLEARLY smoking quack ... geez.
I mean, don't get me wrong - I grew up in the 50's and 60's where Ralph Cramden promised us all ... "TO THE MOON!" ... and we GOT there. But it cost kaboodles ... since we're already in record deficits, one HAS to wonder how we're going to PAY for this ... oh yeah - tax cuts and Enronomics will pay for this for SURE!
WATCH 60 MINUTES THIS SUNDAY!!! ALL will be explained! NO JOKE - WATCH 60 MINUTES this Sunday ... I haven't tuned in for over ten years now because it's been such fluff ... TOMORROW will be a LESSON to all. DON'T MISS IT!
Easy, cut spending on the blue states, the poor, and those living in older central cities while providing a lucrative jobs program for the deserving people elsewhere. If we are going to Mars, forget federal funding for the Second Avenue Subway.
I had always wondered where the Republicans thought they would go once they had bankrupted the United States. It's one thing to load debt on the city, like Lindsay, Giuliani, and a host of Democratic pols, since their supporters were moving to the 'burbs. It's one thing to load debt on the state, since their children are moving to the Sunbelt (along with Peter Rosa, who should be made to pay his share of the debt before we let him leave). But the whole country? The United States a future Argentina?
I had assumed they'd go to one of those tax fraud and drug money havens like the Caymans, or perhaps they'd all move to Idaho and secede.
Now we have the answer.
I doubt Powell would be on the first ship. Unless it's the "peace" process going on. Rumsfeld is the man for the job. :)
I guess if it would cost 10 trillion to do a moon base(gotta beat those Chinese now, probably using our scrap merchandise that failed QC to build the thing), that amounts to a 3 trillion dollar tax cut?
I heard you were contacted about putting the first horse
on Mars....any truth to the rumor?
But Venus is cool, it's my favorite planet.
That's right! There's no pertinent reason, but I wouldn't mind seeing some of our crooked politicians and contractors sent there to be crushed in its thick, heavy atomosphere.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Just as Philadelphia has traditionally been a city of many neighborhoods, it has also been a city of many Main Streets. From north to south, the city's fine-grained grid is inlaid with wide streets that serve as major transportation arteries, firebreaks and retail hubs.
Chuck Greene
Amazing that Philly PUSHED for a trolley. In the 30s and 40s the Little Flower made sure the auto manufacturers got a push and trolleys gradually faded away.
Imagine if NYC tried this. Every nimby in NYC would come out.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Less space for automobiles. The car is king in NYC esp. in the Bloomberg era.
www.forgotten-ny.com
You're thinking of the Giuliani era, the one that came up with pedestrian barricades.
Bloomberg is the one who came up with the Thru Streets and the now-gone HOV restriction.
Bloomberg has also raised parking fines and has seriously considered tolling the East River bridges, while promoting an extension to the 7.
We'll see if he does anything on the noise abatement thing I've been hearing about lately (Don't have the specifics in front of me) Directed mainly at horn-happy cabbies.
www.forgotten-ny.com
If you're behind somebody at a light, and it turns green, and the guy ahead of you doesn't peel away like it's the Indy 500, do you honk?
I bet you do.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I never honk, but there's no reason not to floor it when the light turns green (assuming all the pedestrians have cleared) and the road is dry.
Example, if you're making a right, do so from the right lane, don't make a right turn form the center or left lanes with people doing 50. We have traffic laws for a reason. And I'm talking about doing this in the pedestrian cross-walk.
Plus, in the south, we can't go right when it turns green anyway, different yellow light laws, which means people are usually still in the intersection when my side is green anyway.
And yea, I do hate that when they honk for what you just posted, that's pointless.
What will be the subway car assignment for the "B" division on 2/22/04 & how many subway cars will each line have.
Despite yesterday's dusting, my commute (which doesn't involve the Orange Line) went very well. I arrived at my usual time and was able to walk to the subway station in less time than it would have taken to clear off and warm up the car and then get a ride in it.
The entire length of the K Route Orange line in the median of VA I-66 is protected by a jersey bearer. Some sections also have Armco guard rail between the lift shoulder of the road and the jersey bearer. The chain link fence on top of jersey bearer has a intrusion system that detect penetration of the fence. An alarm will be sounded at WMATA central control when penetration happens.
This is not the first time this has happened along the K Route Orange Line. A similar incident happened between Dunn Loring (K07) and Vienna (K08) a number of years ago. An automobile penetration of the fence and end up on the tracks. As a result a taller jersey bearer was installed.
The fence along the K Route Orange line in the median of VA I-66 is not the only location where fence intrusion systems are installed. Similar system are used where WMATA shares right of ways with railroads and along Hungerford Drive MD-355 on the north side of Rockville Maryland.
B Route Red Line
Portal north of Union Station (B03) to Portal north of Silver Spring (B08) Both sides of WMATA right of way north of M Street, east side of WMATA right of way from M Street to portal north of Union Station (B03).
A Route Red Line
Portal south of Twinbrook (A13) to Shady Grove Yard (B99). East side of WMATA right of way, west side of WMATA right of way that directly abuts Hungerford Drive MD-355 between Rockville (A14) and Shady Grove (A15).
C Route Blue Yellow Lines
South end of National Airport (C10) elevated to north portal of tunnels north of Braddock Road (C12), south portal of tunnels north of Braddock Road (C12) to tunnel portal south of King Street (C13). West side of WMATA right of way.
D Route Orange Line
East end of elevated south of Minnesota Avenue (D09) to west end of fly over east of Cheverly (D11). Both sides of WMATA right of way. East end of fly over east of Cheverly (D11) to end of tail tracks east of New Carrollton (D13). North sides of WMATA right of way.
E Route Green Line
North end of fly over south of College Park (E09) to north end of Greenbelt Yard (E99). West side of WMATA right of way.
J Route Blue Line
Outbound track C2 in C and J Junction (C97) between Portals. North side of WMATA right of way. Portal west of C and J Junction (C97) to east end of fly over east of Van Dorn Street (J02). North side of WMATA right of way. West end of fly over east of Van Dorn Street (J02) to tail tracks south of Springfield-Franconia (J03). South/east side of WMATA right of way.
K Route orange Line
Portal west of Ballston (K04) to tail tracks west of Vienna (K08). Both sides of WMATA right of way.
John
Very good Oren, you caught me making an error identifying the code for Shady Grove Yard.
Now can you tell the rest of Subtalk what part of the train control system the code number identify?
John
Train control system the code number identify the RTU = Remote Terminal Unit.
"The letter number code identifies RTU (Remote Terminal Unit) in the train control room used to control the movement trains through the station and track that the train control room has control over. The RTU is the data link interface between the wayside train control room and the central control computer at WMATA headquarters."
"The letter number code system based on the route letter assigned to the route and the station number as assigned in ascending order as the route radiates away from the geographic center of the system. Example; Dupont Circle (A03) A = Route, 03 = Number on route. Each of these numbers identifies the station and the adjoining area of track that the local wayside train control room controls. The 4 two level transfer stations where the lines cross a 90 degrees (Metro Center (A01 C01), Gallery Place (B01 F01), L'Enfant Plaza (D03 F03) and Fort Totten (B06 E06)) have 2 letter number codes assigned to them one for each route that passes through the station. At present there are 2 wayside train control rooms that do not have station within there control area C11 and J01. Number descending from 99 are assigned to yards, yard leads and junctions that are not within the control area of an adjacent station way side train control room."
There will be a quiz at a latter date.
John
PS
There is also explanation of this in the CAD version of the track schematic.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Now, no mention in the article is given to the TECO line, yes. But from the article:
"She recalled how the area was shabby and populated with drug dealers and prostitutes...."
Everything along the line was this way, and now look at it. Plus, there are currently two little hotels under construction TOUCHING the line, each at a station. This is just another piece to the puzzle, that would've never been there, had it not been for this pivitol route.
I think this is separate from another condo project that is also at this same spot, also along the route.
Plus:
"In return, Towers of Channelside, which purchased the 2.8-acre site from Fogarty, will add a bus stop, rooftop video equipment for city traffic control, and will pay for landscaping on Tampa Port Authority adjacent property." Don't ask me anything about that bus stop though.
I think this would be the fifth project currently in the works that is in it's planning or construction stages.
AM Rush Hours:
Trains leave East New York Yard, run lite to Jamaica Center, then in service, via the J/Z lines to Essex St, then via the F to West 4th, and either the 8th Ave Local and 53rd St or the 6th Ave Local via 63rd St, then via Queens Blvd and Archer Ave to Jamaica Center, then deadhead to Jamaica Yard.
Middays & Nights:
No service
PM Rush Hours:
Reverse of AM rush
Evenings & Weekends:
Service runs in both directions from some terminal in Manhattan (145 or 168 St, perhaps) via the J to Jamaica Center.
Well, besides the usual problems - lack of yard space, lack of rolling stock - what do you think?
If so, there would be enough cars to operate service on the Lackawanna Cut-off with the new bi-level cars arriving in 2006.
Any information is greatly appreciated on the status of the Lackawanna Cut-off.
Iain Frew,
Secretary,
Electric Railway Society,
17, Catherine Drive,
SUTTON COLDFIELD, B73 6AX,
UNITED KINGDOM.
The conductor hinted that this was a problem with many of the new trains. He had to stand at the door between the cars while the train was in motion the rest of the way to Far Rock to point out the gap to anyone who wanted to cross between cars.
The gap wasn't very big, may two inches, but you could see the cars can't seem to stay together properly Anyone heard of this problem??
The H2 track from Gold Street Interlocing up to the south side of the Manny B. This was the grade that caused the BMT to institute "no more than one BX in a train of at least six cars."
The A1 track coming into Prospect Park from 7th Avenue.
Paul, Did you ever see more than one BX set in a six car train anywhere on the system? I sure never did.
In trying to relocate this item I found several photos of 4000's with bolt-on numberboards. Since I had only ever seen painted on numbers I had always associated the new numberboards with rebuilding. Apparently the new numberboard project must have been done before rebuilding.
...which explains why 4036 became the yard office.
They are these longish holes in the ground, originally built to manufacture pianos during wartime seiges.
-Julian
http://www.trainweb.org/phillynrhs/RPOTW.html
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Jimmy
One question, one comment-
Is having a Morrisville NJT station pretty much DOA, at least for the forseeable future?
Don't you love the way railroads build facilities -- like the 12-car inspection pit -- and then forget to put a building around it? Would YOU wanna inspect a train in that outdoor pit tonite? Better yet, would you want to RIDE a train that had been inspected on that pit tonite? ;=D
And why should the business interests of a couple shop keepers in Trenton take priority over the convenience of hundreds, if not thousands, of riders who would flock to a nice Park 'n Ride station in Morrisville? Let them go ape-shit, who cares?
As for the Trenton business interests, I suppose they have friends in high places and are not as politically impotent on the matter as we would like them to be.
Frankly, I think NJT should just install a lo-level platform with a wooden Mini-Hi and then finance it from ticket revenue. People WOULD use it and would also pay a premium to do so. The town of Morrisville probably could also be persuaded to kick in a couple of bucks.
http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/local/states/pennsylvania/cities_and_neighborhoods/main_line/7672198.htm
http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/special_packages/community_voices/bucks/7672161.htm
along with another on Friday that mentioned the return of the Route 15 Trolley
http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/7666191.htm
PLUS page two is up, at least two more to go
http://www.trainweb.org/phillynrhs/RPOTW.html
If the CCM is ever built Amtrak might consider routing the 3 Rivers along it combining with a Philly section and making a power change at THORN. That might shave 30 minutes off the run.
http://www.trainweb.org/phillynrhs/RPOTW.html
http://www.trainweb.org/phillynrhs/RPOTW.html
As a guy who is recording the stuff, rushing c/r's make me a sad panda...
One of the more extreme cutoffs that I can find at the moment
Jessica ettinger always gets cut off. Why do C/R's on the 6 hate her so much? They never EVER cut off the 5 train chick, strangely enough
A lot of people get off at 125th to catch the express. They don't care if the train is held there; the sooner they get there, the sooner they can get on an express.
And C/R's do not lose pay if they reach a timepoint a minute or two earlier than scheduled. The holding lights are turned on and they get to relax for a few minutes.
The average announcement is 9-12 seconds (including SCOTCDP). Letting them play in verbatim guarantees that they will not break the rules and get in trouble.
You see, everyone wins
It's bloody convienient to record announcemnts on my way home. its not like i'm going to brooklyn to record the new lots 4.
For example:
This is a Bronx bound 6 train. The next st-
STAND CLEAR OF TH-
ding dong
(train starts to move)
The next stop is 68th Street-Hunter College.
Yes, and trains across the platform that pull out just as the other train arrives are the worst!
Anybody remember about...25 years ago?...when they FIRST started having conductors make announcements? (Before then you were on your own. If you didn't know what station it was you had to ask somebody.) At first conductors would say, as they opened the doors, "Fulton Street, watch the doors!" In other words they gave the whole thing in one shot.
That's just my opinion on this. To be on the safe side if there's any C/R's that post here then I apoligize if you feel offended.
So instead of:
"This is a Parkchester-bound (6) local train. The next. Stop is -- Stand clear of the closing do" *DING DONG -- DING DONG*
..you'd get:
"This is a Parkchester-bound (6) local train. -- Stand clear of the closing doors --" *DING DONG -- DING DONG*
Do you have a bus or foot fetish or something?
The railroads have been transferrign the operationof some controls to foot-operated...such as the horns. They have both a buttonon the dash AND a foot button, because there's many times that a train engineer has tobe using BOTH hands to regulate the throttle and brake, bell,headlamps, and the radio.
And if you have ever noticed in transit buses for the last thirty five years or so, the turn signals are foot operated...as well as the PA system microphone actuator on many systems.
Of course, they also have bell and gong sounds, both of which are button actuated.
Is the equipment at Denver from Siemens? That might explain the similarity.
The replacement controllers have had their own maintenance issues
too, and crews almost universally preferred the slide handle
controller to the cineston. That crew feedback was one of the
reasons why the new tech designs went back to T-handle.
Before the farebox era, the fare collection was by hand with a foot-operated register.
Nothing PCC-like, just good 1930's state of the art standard car control.
At any rate, this requires constant observation of the arm,
which in turn requires standing while operating.
I can't think of any NYC subway or el cars that used foot controls,
even experimentals.....can you?
Anyone know what the explanation could be?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Which brings me to think, from a facilities standpoint, if they really cared, flourescent is a bad idea in the outdoors in cold climates.
But it makes sense on long stretches of platform, and is cheaper to run due to lower electric consumption
Don't know why, though.
Of course, there is also the "holy grail of lighting", the LED's. LED light even sells street lamp fixtures outfitted with LED, and they can come at any color temperature (the low temp. "sodium color, or the high temp "mercury/metal halide" color, like the new walk signs). Of course, these give off no heat at all, and can work in a wide range of temperatures, and of course last fior years. The problem is that the no heat seems to work too well, and the circuitry apparently freezes or something. So then you get flickering traffic lights, or red and green at the same time, or on the big display signs, patches or individual pixes or colors that do not come on or do not go out.
They're far brighter and have a much longer lamp life than flourescent, although I'm not sure how they compare in terms of energy usage. Sodium vapor lamps give off a gold/yellow glow and metal halide is more of a harsh blue/white light, if I'm not mistaken.
The disadvantages for using such lamps on subway platforms would be: A) At least for sodium vapor lamps, the lamp tends to burn very hot, making it dangerous for mounting on a low ceiling, B) Flourescent lamps are cheaper and easier to replace, and C) a continuous line of flourescent lamps gives much more uniform lighting levels throughout a space, reducing shadows and dark areas, etc.
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
There are 3 types of fluorescent lamp ballast/bulb combinations - regular, High Output (HO) and Very High Output (VHO). In general, VHO will work at lower temperatures than HO, which in turn will work at lower temperatures than regular. In general, regular fixtures are good at 50 degrees and above while HO / VHO fixtures are good down to -20 degrees. Adding a sleeve to the lamp helps low-temperature operation. NYC subway fluorescent fixtures were originally fitted with sleeves, but I haven't seen a sleeve in many years (you can see the holders for the sleeves at each end of the lamp).
I have HO fixtures in my garage and they come on instantly, even in the cold temperatures we're having now.
Presumably the pressure for a fluorescent light must reach a certain point before it works up to 100%, and there is no reason the inside of the fluorescent light is not subject to outdoor temperature conditions. This is another reason why a transparent material with an extremely extremely high heat capacity would be useful, except as people have pointed out, there are other types of lights.
Perhaps the VHO vs. HO that Terry Kennedy speaks of really involve different gas pressures inside the bulb, but I wouldn't want to find that out on a hot day.
The typical fluorescent bulb relies upon mercury vapor to provide the conductive path from one end of the bulb to the other. When the bulb is idle,(off), the mercury condenses to a liquid. Upon inital application of power, the starter heats the mercury to vaporize it and then the internal "arc" is struck, resulting in visible light output. The heat generated by the internal conduction keeps the mercury vaporized. As the ambient temperature drops, the heat supplied by the conduction in the bulb can no longer keep up with the heat losses through the glass tube, and the mercury condenses causing the arc to quench, the starter then restrikes the arc and the process is repeated. End result, the light flickers.
As for "monchromatic" light sources, during WWII, some genius discovered that night vision could be preserved if people were exposed to only red lighting sources after dark. As a result, all naval ships have both "white" and "red" lighting systems in spaces where night vision must be preserved. People who must retain their night vision wear red goggles when passing through "white" spaces.
Unfortunately, the navigation charts are located in a "red" lit area. A different genius mandated that all danger soundings (shallow depths) will be printed in RED. You can guess the rest. After several unexplained, nightime, groundings of ships, someone finally realized that the red warnings were invisible under red lighting. The addition of a hooded. low wattage white light to the chart table solved this problem.
All large organizations suffer from the same problems.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/10/nyregion/10ABOU.html?ex=1074742341&ei=1&en=a19ca24f36dbc72d
www.forgotten-ny.com
www.forgotten-ny.com
Does anyone know on where these tracks end at.
Generally, only 3 trains are stored in the Bowdoin Yard, but as many as 5 sets can be squeezed in. But stevie is right as there are 4 sets there right now!
Court Street station was the original terminus of the East Boston tunnel from December 30, 1904, to November 1914, when the extension to Bowdoin was opened. To extend the tracks, the floor of Court Street was removed, and the tunnel built below. This allowed the new tunnel to pass underneath the Scollay Square station of the Tremont Street subway. Scollay Under was built to replace Court.
Also, around this area In 1963, Scollay Square Station became Government Center. At that time, the northbound tunnel had been relocated to make way for the new City Hall complex. The change-over occurred on October 28th, and Adams Square Station was closed. Much of the original tunnel from Scollay to Adams, and from Adams to Haymarket, including Adams Square Station, were demolished. However, a small tunnel remnant is still used by the MBTA as a utility room and another small portion is used by City Hall as an underground records storage area.
-----------------------------------
Look for some major renovations to Government Center, both Blue and Green, in the next couple of years as these stations are redone and made ADA compliant.
I went to the Patchogue station at my lunch hour, and met Pigs, Jersey Mike, and Arcingcatenary. I'm sure they will give you a trip report, as I only saw them for about 10 minutes, before heading back to work.
But here is their train arriving at Patchogue:
I was at the front end of the platform, so didn't get a photo of the hooping as it left towards Bellport, but here's some other photos I took:
http://as0.mta.info/mnr/stations/station_detail.cfm?key=140
Weird url but when there it shows the actuall mta site. Still curious how to get to the other platform to go home, crossing those 2 3rd rails in the middle isnt great to do since I'm a lousy jumper. So whats everybodys opinion on the station now that one pic was found.
Also I'll be there tomorrow taking pictures so keep an eye if interested.
how to get to the other platform to go home
If all else fails, you could try Mount Pleasant Taxi (914)769-2306 and call ahead for taxi from one platform to the other.
The map at http://www.mta.info/mnr/html/mnrmap.htm shows them as different places. Mt. Pleasant is a cemetery. There seems to be weekend service only.
Weekend servise is:
North bound #9615 at 09:30 /#9623 at 11:28/ #9631 at 13:28
South bound #9622 at 10:49 /#9634 at 13:49/ #9642 at 15:49
I didnt go today, so I'm going tomorrow since its supposedly gonna be alittle warmer except for the proposed snow.
Its funny how they named it STEVENS AVENUE and my name is Steven, such a coincidence.
Anyways, thanks again for the info I missed.
So tomorrow I'm going to Hawthorne and take a cab to Mt. Pleasant and back to Hawthorne for the train back to NY. Or I'll walk the mile. :/, I walked 60 blocks not to long ago, so a mile or 2 should be ok, especially since tomorrow the weather will be in the 20's.
You can always post pictures on subtalk if you know how to. But if you are asking about the "permanent exhibits" on the main site, I think you would have to approach the web site host, David Pirmann. One way to reach him is by the Feedback Form. You have probably seen the section on the Metro North Harlem line at http://www.nycsubway.org/nyc/metronorth/harlem.html.
click here
click here
(sorry about the first one I hit the wrong place)
From Brooklyn Genealogy Information Page
I like how it shows the Sea Beach line ending at New Utrecht Avenue.
Look at the Broadway Line (now J) and the upper Myrtle (M) segments-
There are stations that are gone now- Park Av. on the Broadway Line, and Evergreen Ave. and Covert Ave. on the upper Myrtle.
Also- the lower end of the West End Line- Ulmer Park?? That's a new one...the route alignment looks different..I'm venturing to guess that the West End and the Myrtle were still on the ground when this map was made.
P.S. I'd bring up the Canarsie Line, but hey, everyone knows that by now, eh??
The West End Line at grade and used Bath Ave not 86th St.
The Myrtle was at grade north of Wycoff Ave.
The Culver was also at grade, as was the Canarsie (south of New Lots).
--Mark
www.forgotten-ny.com
I did find that if I opened that image up in either Irfanview of MS Photo Editor, I could adjust the constrast and brightness to where the streets were plainly visible in a zoomed view, around 200 %.
Also...I don't know why, but seeing the Consumer's Park station always give me chills.....
And I know Jamaica Racetrack was around where Locust Manor LIRR station is now, Rochdale Village.
An interesting site I found for more information is at http://horseracing.about.com/library/blnytracks.htm
Following is a list of additional old and new street names in Ridgewood/Glendale/Bushwick that I know of (again, does anyone know when these changes occurred?):
Sandol St. became 62nd St.
Anthon Ave. became 60th Ave.
Buchman Ave. became 60th Ln.
Chaffee St. became 64th St.
Charlotte Pl. became 60th Lane Glendale
Covert Ave. became Seneca Ave.
Dill Pl. became 61st St.
Edsall Ave. became 70th Ave.
Elm Ave. became Catalpa Ave.
Fosdick Ave. became 69th St.
Foxall St. became 69th Ave.
Halsey St. became Silver St. became 68th Rd.
Hancock became Hughes became 68th Ave.
Haverkamp St. became 71st Ave.
Hooker St. became 66th Pl.
Kossuth Pl became Cypress Hills St.
McKinley Ave. became 67th St.
Richard Ave. became 67th Pl.
Schley St. became 65th Pl.
Valentine St. became 66th St.
Van Cortlandt Ave. became 71st Ave Glendale
The numbering system was proposed in 1911, first implemented in 1913, and took 10-15 years to implement completely.
This subject was one time where I admitted I was wrong and that others were right.
I really appreciate the Brighton Line details (Consumer's Park, Woodruff Ave., and Race Track spur). Also, I noted the Flatlands, Ave. L, Canarsie Pier, and the odd 'Eastern Parkway' stops on the old Canarise line.
By the very wording in the legend, it would appear that the Sea Beach Line was treated as a separate entity under the banner of the BRT (much like the South Brooklyn Railway was -- and still is).
Thanks for linking it here.
I think it's that history that gives the Brooklyn lines, especially, their uniqueness. With a little effort we can go back to when they were all seperate railroad companies. Brooklyn must have really been a hotbed of development. With all those rail lines, the lovely flat terrain, a residential building standard that ensured plenty of customers for those rail lines, Brooklyn went on to glory.
--Mark
For what ever reason, the Lexington Line station names are upside down. However, the notations are very clear.
There are plenty of post card views of the (Coney Island) lines running on the surface. I have some on my mainframe.console site.
http://www.angelfire.com/fl/mainframeconsole/
See the Brooklyn El Pix link at the bottom of the page.
Maybe we need to upload any post card and actual photo images to show the evolution of the Brooklyn Els. See what the boss says about it.
The rapid transit history of Brooklyn is a subject unto itself.
Thank you for the link to the Brooklyn page.
I also do Revolutionary War research
This will, of course, preclude any hope of dismantling the Viaduct along Causeway St. before July's DNC Convention in Boston, but will also prevent the necessity of expansive, and expensive bus shuttling and disruption in the North Station area.
When more specific details become available we'll be happy to post them.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
-Robert King
Instead, the C/R played an announcement that said, apprx: "Ladies and gentleman: In order to provide better service for our connecting passengers, we are waiting for an arriving train. Please be patient."
Announcement played: "Ladies and gentleman: In order to provide better service for our connecting passengers, we are waiting for an arriving train. Please be patient."
*A 4 train pulls into the stations, but before opening its doors...*
Announcement played: "Stand clear of the closing doors, please!"
DING-DONG.
*Doors close, the 6 train begins to pull out of the station as the doors to the 4 train across the platform opens*
I guess he thought he was being held for a connection, but then the holding lights went out before the other train pulled in.
I was surprised to cocoa they even HAD that in them.
Does anyone else remember this? And how did the MTA get away with this situation for so long?
The Concourse line was still incandescent as late as 1979 or 1980. Only 161st St. was fluorescent and then only because it served Yankee Stadium.
Every Queens Blvd. station had flourescently lit platforms by late 1985, which is as far back as I can reliably testify to.
By the way, just to get back on topic, the stations always looked pretty well lit to me.
Museum of Natural History. When I was a kid we went every summer, taking the J to ENY, then the A to 59th, then the AA to 81st. It was always more fun than the damned museum.
By the way, just to get back on topic, the stations always looked pretty well lit to me.
Most of the stations along Fulton St were not flourescently lit until the early 1980's. I remember Broadway ENY not having them, and several local stations, although I cannot remember which ones were and weren't.
And to think I take my son there a few times a year (and am proud to donate my $1 each instead of the suggested donation) But I don't think I would have figured that abbreviation in a million years!!!
Its Washington counterpart is abbreviated the NMNH (National Museum of Natural History). I'm there as an official info desk person answering questions on many Saturday mornings (near the elephant).
By the way, just to get back on topic, the stations always looked pretty well lit to me and until I started reading SubTalk never even realized any change in lighting.
Broadway-East New York seemed especially dimly lit by contrast to the brightly daylight-lit Broadway Junction platform of the L line, and the above-ground stations of the Rockaway Line (Rockaway Park to 80th (Hudson) Street). I'm remembering trips from Ridgewood to Rockaway Beach and back again in the summer, 1961-65. I think Euclid Avenue was a little brighter compared to Broadway-East New York, but not by much.
As for Broadway-ENY; that station used the same 32-watt reverse-thread incandescent bulbs the other stations used EXCEPT they were spaced a little further apart, probably because the station was built a little later than the others (it opened in 1946) and they didn't adhere to the original drawings. It was so dim I thought the blue tile was dark green and it even looked green close up in the gloom!
It wasn't until they re-lit the station that I realized the tile was blue.
wayne
There certainly would appear to be sufficient rider demand along such a line - and just as an added bonus Lexington Avenue service to and from South Ferry could be resumed, which would be the line's southern terminus (the #5 could then be sent somewhere else during non-rush hours instead of to Bowling Green, where it terminates now; Atlantic Avenue would be the logical choice).
But please find a different terminal. VCP is already pretty much maxxed out, so you'd be forcing a major reduction in 1/9 service. That's not a big deal up there, but it's a major problem between 137th and Times Square, where the 1/9 already struggles to meet the demand. (Trains were so crowded this week in the morning rush that dwell times were upwards of a minute at each local station.)
Finally, the Lex is maxed out below 125th with its 4, 5, and 6 branches all coming together. And south of Brooklyn Bridge you have only two tracks. Where would you make the capacity for another service below 125th, and below Brooklyn Bridge?
Within a minute a southbound local and express came and went. And then, amazingly, for 12 whole minutes, there was not a single train in Grand Central Station in either direction. Nor was there any announcement. The quiet was impressive.
I've never seen such a thing. There are 48 tph scheduled to run through Grand Central on the 4/5/6 on a Saturday at mid-day. Of course, it happens when there is some major service disruption, but in this case there wasn't. Just irregular spacing between trains because of the cold weather.
The other amazing thing is that when the next local and express actually arrived, they were full but nowhere near crush load. People must have stayed home in huge numbers because of the cold.
Regards,
Jimmy
Jan 15 Star-Ledger
NJ Transit just put out new schedules on Dec. 15, largely to accommodate the weekday operation of the massive new Secaucus Junction station. Some of the changes being proposed for the schedules that will go into effect Feb. 15 are designed to address problems that arose after Dec. 15.
Do you have any information on the original Main St. Station design on the # 7 Line? I heard that it had two newsstands, a coffee shop, and an entrance to a Woolworth's that used to be located on the corner of Roosevelt and Main (where an Old Navy stands today)...
www.forgotten-ny.com
In any case, I suppose walking around the Old Navy may turn up something; unless Old Navy really changed the place before they reopened the property.
At the time the booths and the people working them were needed. These days I think Main Street is more crowded and there are fewer people working there.
1. It's probably a good idea.
2. They probably did it. See my posting about silence in Grand Central. You don't easily get zero trains for 12 minutes if you haven't cut the schedule.
OTOH, should the fewer people who do show up at an elevated station be rewarded by having to wait longer for a train in the cold weather?
Time was of the essence.
I think I just answered my own question. City Ticket still wouldn't help me from either of the Long Island City stations, because it doesn't work on weekends. It's easier just to take the V train from Court Square rather than go out to Woodside and back in to Manhattan via City Ticket. Darn.
Why not ride the B61 or Q67 direct to the R train at Queens Plaza?
Insert testicullarly-related joke here.
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
Only Manhattan and DC used conduit, DC on "no wires to block the view" reasons, Manhattan (Third Avenue and New York Railways) for the aforementioned reason.
Conduit costs were 7 to 8 times higher than standard overhead collection.
Brooklyn and the Bronx had no overhead restricions.
In fact, it was an act of the City Legislature in 1883 or 1884
that created the ban. There had been public presssure to
regulate overhead wires. Back in the days of unit-wire telegraph
lines (rather than cables) some of the poles had dozens of
crossarms with dozens of wires each on them. What really drove
the point home was an incident documented in the New York Times
in which a lineman slipped from his pole and fell into the nest
of wires. He was electrocuted (presumably these were power
wires) and, according to reports, he was stuck up there for hours,
with blue sparks shooting out of his mouth, until finally the
power was turned off and he was cut down.
After the law was passed, utility companies were very slow
to comply. The 1888 blizzard caused a large number of downed
wires and that motivated a speedup in underground construction.
The Empire City Subway company was formed around this time to
construction the underground ducts.
a downed Subway-Way trolley wire on Baltimore Ave
I take it you mean Subway-Surface…?
And I really hope that SEPTA does not use this as an excuse for more bustitution and removal of trolley and trolleybus operation. Maybe if they budgeted for maintenance of such or lobbied Harrisburg and DC for more money…?
In the summer, it smells just as bad as the Chinatown in Manhattan. And traffic on Main St can sometimes get pretty bad.
How does an area officially become a Chinatown?
There are no Chinese signs/mosaics in the Flushing subway station (unlike Canal Street station in Manhattan), but those escalator safety recordings at the east end of the station are repeated in both English and Mandarin Chinese. In addition, Flushing has frequent daily casino bus service to Foxwoods, which is as good an indicator of being a Chinatown as any. =)
Also, are there any other neighborhoods in the five boroughs of NYC that have large concentrations of Asian people and businesses?
There's a cluster of Japanese restaurants frequented/run by actual Japanese (as opposed to Japanese restaurants run by Chinese, which seem to be common all over Manhattan) and a few Japanese stores/mini-marts around St. Marks Place between 2nd and 3rd Avenues in the East Village.
There's also West 32nd Street between 5th Avenue and Broadway, which has a number of Korean businesses, including several 24-hour Korean barbecue places. Someone else has mentioned the neighborhoods along Northern Blvd between Flushing and almost Nassau County-- there are quite a few Korean businesses and residents there.
Closer to Manhattan, Elmhurst also seems to have enough of a Chinese population to host several Chinese supermarkets and an outpost of Joe's Shanghai.
Not in the five boroughs, but Edgewater, NJ, has a Japanese shopping center including a large supermarket (Mitsuwa), a food court, and several shops including a Kinokuniya bookstore.
This would be a largely elevated (ie as much as possible, as it's cheap!) automated system, probably narrow-gauge and "pneu" like the French VAL systems. The section through Fazeley St would be elevated over the never-used Great Western Railway "Duddeston Viaduct". The section from just East of the Old Square to just South of Chinatown would be tunneled through the sandstone Birmingham stands on (yes, this isn't ideal, but it avoids running an El outside the Cathedral and the Council House!).
The City Centre Loop would serve both the well-established western part of the City Centre and the developing "Eastside" (focussed on Curzon St). Trains would serve the loop in both directions from each branch, all running from one outer terminal to the other. The more easterly of the Southern branches runs over the Stratford Rd, the more westerly over the Moseley Rd.
The Stratford Rd Line would run along the main street of the two most densely populated wards in the City (viz Sparkbrook and Sparkhill), it would then pass out to the important suburban centre of Shirley (which is nowhere near BR's Shirley station) then through the rapidly developing areas beyond Marshall Lake to the large business park at Blythe Valley.
The Moseley Rd Line would relive the most congested corridor in the City and run along the main street of the second largest commercial area in the City (viz King's Heath). It would run out to the proposed Park & Ride site at the Maypole (the boundary with Worcestershire), then turn through the large council estates (US: housing projects) along the Southern edge of the city. The final three of these (viz Pool Farm, Primrose Hill, and Hawkesley) have been singled out for having the worst social exclusion in the whole country, mainly provoked by poor public transport (the legendary unreliability of the #35 bus).
Any comments are of course gratefully received.
Birmingham is Britain's second largest metropolitan area, with a population of 2,600,000, closely followed by Manchester with 2,500,000. Both figures apply to unofficial "urban agglomerations", not administrative areas. Source Principal Agglomerations of the World based on Th Brinkhoff at http://www.citypopulation.de, 2003-09-16.
I would like to know how the transport systems of these cities compare, as the cities themselves are broadly comparable.
I know Manchester has introduced "light transit" trams, which are to include the old Altrincham commuter rail line.
What does Birmingham have and what is planned? I don't know enough about what's already there to comment on your plan.
Not 'are to include', do include. The Metrolink tram system in Manchester, including the Altricham line, has been open for over a decade - it opened in July 1992. It also includes the old Bury commuter rail line: both do good business with headways of 10 tph or better for much of the day. There is on-street running in the city centre since the city got fed up of waiting for funding for the Pic-Vic tunnel. The lines start from the undercroft (really called that) of Manchester Piccadilly main line railway station - the main line tracks are above street level, so the undercroft, while looking like an underground station, is actually at ground level. A third route added more recently goes to Salford Quays & Eccles - that one has a lot more on-street running and is consequently a bit slow. There are plans for the conversion of other commuter routes, including the Oldham/Rochdale line, and more new construction too. See:
http://www.metrolink.co.uk/
In addition to the Metrolink, Manchester has a reasonable range of other commuter train services (some electric, some diesel), including a quite recently built line to the airport.
It is good that they have used segregated (ex British Rail) lines where possible. Besides the Oldham/Rochdale line there are proposed extensions to Ashton-under-Lyne and airport via Wythenshawe, and optionally Stockport and Trafford Centre.
I'm fed up of estimated agglomeration figures. Here are some real ones (it looks like I've well and truly buggered up - Manchester's bigger than Brum and Snottingham's bigger than Leicester!):
RESULTS (NB no breakdown of statistics available for Scotland or Northern Ireland - hence absence of Glasgow etc)
1) London 12,151,830
2) Manchester 2,632,483
3) Birmingham 2,619,410 (my former home town)
4) Leeds 2,230,547
5) Liverpool 1,861,364
6) Sheffield 1,462,123
7) Newcastle-upon-Tyne 1,272,033
8) Middlesborough 726,050
9) Cardiff 706,818
10) Nottingham 695,913
11) Brighton 637,948
12) Leicester 579,430 (my current home town)
13) Bristol 569,179
14) Blackburn 563,857
15) Stoke-on-Trent 453,321
16) Derby 448,278
17) Portsmouth 487,942
18) Swansea 486,414
19) Coventry 419,980
20) Bournemouth 346,597
21) Southampton 333,614
22) Plymouth 319,919
23) Grimsby 310,828
24) Colchester 295,611
25) Hull (City) 243,589 (ERY problem)
26) Preston 233,500
27) Newport (Monmouthshire) 227,960
28) Milton Keynes (Town) 207,057
29) Northampton (Town) 194,458
30) York (City) 181,094
31) Swindon (Town) 180,051
32) Bath (City) 169,040
33) Telford (Town) 158,325
34) Peterborough (City) 156,061
35) Blackpool (Town) 142,283
36) Maidstone (Town) 138,948
37) Oxford (City) 134,248
38) Torbay (Town) 129,706
39) Norwich (City) 121,550
40) Stafford (Town) 120,670
41) Chester (City) 118,210
42) Ipswich (Town) 117,069
43) Lowestoft (Town) 112,342
44) Exeter (City) 111,076
45) Crewe (Town) 111,007
46) Cheltenham (Town) 110,013
47) Gloucester (City) 109,885
48) Cambridge (City) 108,863
49) Carlisle (City) 100,739
Tedious working in case anyone wishes to rip it to shreds:
BIRMINGHAM (Census 2001)
Birmingham 977,087
Bromsgrove 87,837
Cannock Chase 92,126
Dudley 305,155
Redditch 78,807
Sandwell 282,904
Solihull 199,517
South Staffordshire 105,896
Walsall 253,499
Wolverhampton 236,582
TOTAL 2,619,410
BLACKBURN (Census 2001)
Blackburn with Darwen 137,470
Burnley 89,542
Chorley 100,449
Hyndburn 81,496
Pendle 89,248
Rossendale 65,652
TOTAL 563,857
BOURNEMOUTH (Census 2001)
Bournemouth 163,444
Christchurch 44,865
Poole 138,288
TOTAL 346,597
BRIGHTON (Census 2001)
Adur 59,627
Arun 140,759
Brighton & Hove 247,817
Lewes 92,177
Worthing 97,568
TOTAL 637,948
BRISTOL (Census 2001)
Bristol 380,615
North Somerset 188,564
TOTAL 569,179
CARDIFF (Census 2001)
Caerphilly 169,519
Cardiff 305,353
Rhondda - Cynon - Taff 231,946
TOTAL 706,818
CHELMSFORD (Census 2001)
Chelmsford 157,072
Tendring 138,539
TOTAL 295,611
COVENTRY (Census 2001)
Coventry 300,848
Nuneaton & Bedworth 119,132
TOTAL 419,980
DERBY (Census 2001)
Amber Valley 116,471
Derby 221,708
Erewash 110,099
TOTAL 448,278
GRIMSBY
North-East Lincolnshire 157,979
North Lincolnshire 152,849
TOTAL 310,828
LEEDS (Census 2001)
West Yorkshire 2,079,211
Harrogate 151,336
TOTAL 2,230,547
LEICESTER (Census 2001)
Blaby 90,252
Charnwood 153,462
Leicester 279,921
Oadby & Wigston 55,795
TOTAL 579,430
LIVERPOOL (Census 2001)
Ellesmere Port & Neston 81,672
Halton 118,208
Knowlsley 150,459
Liverpool 439,473
St Helen's 176,843
Sefton 282,958
Warrington 191,080
West Lancashire 108,378
Wirral 312,293
TOTAL 1,861,364
LONDON (Census 2001)
Former LCC area 7,172,092
Basildon 165,668
Bracknell Forest 109,617
Brentwood 68,456
Broxbourne 87,054
Castle Point 86,608
Chelmsford 157,072
Chiltern 89,228
Crawley 99,744
Dacorum 137,799
Dartford 85,911
East Hertfordshire 128,919
Elmbridge 121,936
Epping Forest 120,896
Epsom & Ewell 67,059
Gravesham 95,717
Guildford 129,701
Harlow 78,768
Hertsmere 94,450
Luton 184,371
Medway 249,488
Mole Valley 80,287
North Hertfordshire 116,908
Reading 143,096
Reigate & Banstead 126,523
Rochford 78,489
Runnymede 78,033
Rushmoor 90,987
St Alban's 129,005
Sevenoaks 109,305
Slough 119,067
South Befordshire 112,637
South Buckinghamshire 61,945
Southend-on-Sea 160,257
Spelthorne 90,930
Stevenage 79,715
Surrey Heath 80,314
Tandridge 79,267
Three Rivers 82,848
Thurrock 143,128
Tonbridge & Malling 107,561
Watford 79,726
Welwyn - Hatfield 97,553
Windsor & Maidenhead 133,626
Woking 89,840
Wokingham 150,229
TOTAL 12,151,830
MANCHESTER (Census 2001)
Bolton 261,037
Bury 180,608
Macclesfield 150,155
Manchester 392,819
Oldham 217,273
Rochdale 205,357
Salford 216,103
Stockport 284,528
Tameside 213,043
Trafford 210,145
Wigan 301,415
TOTAL 2,632,483
MIDDLESBOROUGH (Census 2001)
Darlington 97,838
Hartlepool 88,611
Middlesborough 134,855
Redcar & Cleveland 139,132
Sedgefield 87,206
Stockton-on-Tees 178,408
TOTAL 726,050
NEWCASTLE-UPON-TYNE (Census 2001)
Blyth Valley 81,265
Chester-le-Street 53,692
Gateshead 191,151
Newcastle-upon-Tyne 259,536
North Tyneside 191,659
South Tyneside 152,785
Sunderland 280,807
Wansbeck 61,138
TOTAL 1,272,033
NEWPORT (MONMOUTHSHIRE) (Census 2001)
Newport 137,011
Torfaen 90,949
TOTAL 227,960
NOTTINGHAM (Census 2001)
Ashfield 111,387
Broxtowe 107,570
Gedling 111,787
Mansfield 98,181
Nottingham 266,988
TOTAL 695,913
PLYMOUTH (Census 2001)
Caradon 79,649
Plymouth 240,270
TOTAL 319,919
PORTSMOUTH (Census 2001)
Fareham 107,977
Gosport 76,415
Havant 116,849
Portsmouth 186,701
TOTAL 487,942
PRESTON (Census 2001)
Preston 129,633
South Ribble 103,867
TOTAL 233,500
SHEFFIELD (Census 2001)
South Yorkshire 1,266,338
Chesterfield 98,845
North-East Derbyshire 96,940
TOTAL 1,462,123
SOUTHAMPTON (Census 2001)
Eastleigh 116,169
Southampton 217,445
TOTAL 333,614
STOKE-ON-TRENT (Census 2001)
Congleton 90,655
Newcastle-under-Lyme 122,030
Stoke-on-Trent 240,636
TOTAL 453,321
SWANSEA (Census 2001)
Bridgend 128,645
Neath - Port Talbot 134,468
Swansea 223,301
TOTAL 486,414
There are some quite big places that I had never heard of (Sandwell, Charnwood, Sefton, Tameside to name a few) and others that have disappeared, presumably annexed by other admin areas. I am surprised that Manchester has shrunk to below 400,000.
Sandwell was the result in 1974 of merging the boroughs of West Bromwich, Warley (ie Smethwick), and Oldbury.
Charnwood is Loughborough and the surrounding area.
Sefton is the coastal area North of Liverpool, with the major town being Southport.
Tameside is Ashton-under-Lyne, Mossley, Stalybridge, Hyde and Denton.
These are artificial names for local authorities created by the reorganisation of the 1970s. Sandwell is West Bromwich etc.; Charnwood is Loughborough (where I am seated at this very moment); Sefton is just north of Liverpool (Bootle etc.); Tameside is Ashton-under-Lyne and adjoining districts in Greater Manchester.
The really crazy thing is that there is a Sandwell Ward just across the border in Birmingham. It's probably the worst named of these artificial muncipalities as the Sandwell Valley forms only a tiny part in the North of the former Borough of West Brom, the most Northerly of the constituent parts.
If it were up to me, I'd set up a Greater Birmingham, with an elected mayor and have about 36 far smaller boroughs to deal with boring but necessary things like potholes. (Make it a situation much more like a real city like London or NYC).
The split I'd do would be:
Coventry - separate County Borough.
Solihull - former Meriden RD (except Elmdon, Knowle etc) returned to Warwickshire as part of North Warwickshire District; Solihull and Chelmsley Wood become two separate boroughs (with airport in between).
Birmingham - Erdington, Handsworth, Yardley, King's Heath with Moseley, Northfield with King's Norton, Harborne, and Handsworth all become boroughs; Sutton Coldfield becomes a Royal Borough; remainder becomes the Borough of the City of Birmingham with Aston Manor.
Dudley - split into broughs of Halesowen, Stourbridge (taking Kinver from S Staffs and Hagley from Wyre Forest), Brierley Hill, Kingswinford, Dudley, Sedgley, and Coseley.
Sandwell - split into Smethwick with Warley, Blackheath with Rowley Regis, Oldbury, West Bromwich, Tipton, and Wednesbury.
Walsall - split into Walsall, Darlaston, Willenhall, Bloxwich, and Aldridge - Brownhills.
Wolverhampton - split into Wolverhampton, Bilston, and Wednesfield.
Cannock Chase, Bromsgrove, Redditch, Wombourne - incorporated as boroughs.
For Manchester you have taken the Met County of Greater Manchester (pop 2,482,328)
and added Macclesfield (150,155).
Result = 2,632,483.
So assuming you have made the right additions and subtractions, I agree that Manchester is slightly bigger than Birmingham.
Correct. Coventry is of course detatched from the rest of the West Midlands by several miles of countryside (formerly Meriden Rural District, now mostly in Solihull MB). Bromsgrove and Redditch are really Southern satellites - okay, there is a field or two here and there in between, but the Lickey Hills are now really functioning as a large urban park. West Midlands bus passes are valid to Cannock and also to Wombourne, the only significant population centre (really a suburb of Wolverhampton) in South Staffs - this really illustrates quite how establishedly urban these areas are.
For Manchester you have taken the Met County of Greater Manchester (pop 2,482,328)
and added Macclesfield (150,155).
I've never lived in Manchester so I really took the obvious step of leaving the current boundaries on the East (the Pennines - fairly definitive), the West (with Liverpool) and the North (with Blackburn). As Macclesfield definitely looks toward Manchester rather than Chester or Stoke, I made a slight alteration to the Southern boundary. Probably less certain is my placing of Warrington in Liverpool, but this is made up for by the 1974 boundary placing Wigan in Manchester.
So assuming you have made the right additions and subtractions, I agree that Manchester is slightly bigger than Birmingham.
I'm probably guilty of a huge degree of subjectivity, but I simply drew the boundaries as seemed best to me and added up the raw data. There are certain things I don't like. Notably, I regret not having the data to add outlying towns like Beverley into Hull and Ponteland into Newcastle, without adding in the entirity of the East Riding and Castle Morpeth respectively.
In a couple of cases I've decided "sod it" and added rural slabs with the population centres represented - there are three of those in my Birmingham figure - the Eastern part of the Borough of Solihull, the Southern and Western parts of Bromsgrove District, and the Northern part of South Staffs. However, there is the occasional "village" (eg Hagley) that I haven't included, so more or less the figures should cancel out.
The boundaries are 30 years old. They are in need of substantial revision, as does basic local government structure (and UAs are definitely NOT the answer - Leicestershire, for instance, focuses on Leicester; it is not a doughnut county completely dissociated from its city) and, as more people have realised, funding.
Incidentally "Former LCC area" should read "Former GLC area" - the LCC (deceased 1963) covered only inner London.
Slip of the keyboard acknowledged.
My source doesn't say how their figures were derived, but in all cases except London they do appear to have used Metropolitan Counties. I have no idea how they arrived at their figure for London (11,900,000).
Rail Blue has used his own good judgment to decide what to include and exclude. For London he has drawn the line at about a 30 mile radius, extended to include places like Reading and Southend.
You don't need to be terribly precise when debating the relative merits of heavy rail, light rail or bus rapid transit, but you should always look beyond narrow administrative areas, as is obvious in a case like Manchester (392,819) versus Greater Manchester (roughly 2,500,000).
Very slow buses and a boondoggle of a tram line wrecking the heart of the national rail network.
Midland Metro gets a (not so favorable) review on this site: http://world.nycsubway.org/eu/uk/birmingham.html.
But nothing seems to be planned to serve the south and east suburbs, and that is the gap that your lines would fill.
Your plan has a station at Snow Hill, allowing for transfer to Midland Metro, but ideally the two systems should be compatible. Are there any existing railway lines or rights of way to the south of the city that your line could use?
Personally I much prefer the Manchester's Metrolink livery, which looks quite elegant.
Liverpool and Newcastle are smaller cities, but both have heavy rail, partly underground; then both have rivers to cross. Liverpool also had the World's first electric elevated railway (opened 1893), but sadly it was demolished for want of cash.
Rail Blue doesn't like it either, as it uses a main line that he would like to see restored with real trains: it uses the old Great Western Railway ROW most of the way, except for a short stretch of on-street running at the Wolverhampton end to bring it closer to the city centre. There are extension plans, but not much sign of anything happening yet.
Birmingham also has other suburban rail lines, with a reasonably frequent service in most cases, but it has suffered as a rail city by its status as the centre of Britain's car industry which leads to pro-car attitudes.
"Liverpool and Newcastle are smaller cities, but both have heavy rail, partly underground; then both have rivers to cross."
Liverpool's system has some of the characteristics of an underground, especially the city centre stations ta Liverpool James Street and Birkenhead Hamilton Square, which look like tube stations. It tunnels under the Mersey between these two stations. It is, however, part of the national rail system (ex-British Rail).
Most of Newcastle's suburban rail system has been converted into the Tyne & Wear Metro, which also includes some new tube construction and a new route to the airport. The tube doesn't go under the river - the Tyne is in a deep valley in the city centre and the Metro crosses it by a bridge. There is debate as to whether this system should be termed light or heavy rail. Its latest extension actually shares track with national rail diesel local trains on the route to Sunderland. See:
http://www.tyneandwearmetro.co.uk/
As you rightly point out, Newcastle has a different story. The Tyne crossings are of course bridges. It seems surprising that they could afford to build underground sections of railway, and a new bridge over the river, all to serve a relatively small population. They did however make extensive use of existing rail lines. Anyhow the Tyne and Wear Metro seems quite successful, with 4-car trains at 12 minute intervals.
Liverpool has Merseyrail, Newcastle has Tyne and Wear Metro.
Bigger Birmingham has started on Midland Metro, which is so far just one line from Birmingham to Wolverhampton.
Midland Metro is also considering plans for additional lines as follows:
Birmingham City Centre to Airport.
Birmingham City Centre to Quinton.
Birmingham City Centre to Great Barr.
Wolverhampton, Wednesfield, Willenhall, Walsall and Wednesbury.
The appear to be no plans covering the area that Rail Blue wants to serve, unless there is suburban rail there.
No, they shouldn't. Midland Metro has HUGE operating costs, as they have pursued a policy of 3 man operation (1 driver, 2 conductors, tiny short trains) and unstaffed stations.
The stations can roughly be broken down into three groups, relatively well used, ones that a case could be made for, and ones with practically no ridership. These are:
RELATIVELY WELL USED
Birmingham Snow Hill
Jewellery Quarter
The Hawthorns
West Bromwich Central
Wednesbury Gt Western St and Parkway could form one between them - they're very close
Bilston Central
Wolverhampton SG (althought this is poorly placed for the bus station and High Level station - running straight into Low Level would be better)
CASE COULD BE MADE FOR
One of Kenrick Park and Trinity Way
One of Dartmouth St and Guns Village
Black Lake (but it would be more use if it were where the old Swan Village station was)
Bradley Lane
Loxdale
Priestfield
NO USE TO MAN NOR BEAST
The remaining ten stations
The corridor is basically better suited to commuter rail. The on street running section is utterly gratuitous. What I'd suggest would be (after 4-tracking Dorridge to Moor St):
2tph run non-stop Marylebone to Banbury
FRONT PART
B'ham MS, B'ham SH, W Brom, Wednesbury, Bilston, Wolv LL, Telford Cen, then 1tph all stops to Chester, 1tph all stops to Aberystwyth.
REAR PART
all stops to Dorridge, then Solihull, B'ham MS, B'ham SH, all stops to Kidderminster, 1tph continuing to Worcester Foregate St.
1tph Leamington Spa - Stourbridge Jct all stops
1tph Dorridge - Wellington all stops
1tph Dorridge - B'ham Moor St all stops
1tph Stratford - Shirley - Stourbridge Jct all stops
1tph Shirley - Wellington all stops
1tph Shirley - B'ham Moor St all stops
Possible future additions:
2tph B'ham Snow Hill - W Brom - Dudley all stops
2tph B'ham Snow Hill - Darlaston - Walsall all stops
But nothing seems to be planned to serve the south and east suburbs, and that is the gap that your lines would fill.
Or rather they realised several years ago that running a tram through those areas simply wouldn't work. There was a plan at one stage to run to the Maypole via Moseley and King's Heath, but that got quietly dropped.
Are there any existing railway lines or rights of way to the south of the city that your line could use?
There are two lines across South Birmingham: the Camp Hill Line and the North Warwickshire Line.
The North Warwickshire Line takes rather an oblique course, running from the former GWR London - Birmingham Line at Tyseley (an industrial area), having carefully steered between the populated areas of Sparkbrook and Small Heath (Small Heath station is rather in the middle of nowhere). It runs through a low density part of Hall Green and Yardley Wood, then has a stop at Shirley near the edge of the built up area (this of course is about a mile and a half from the centre of Shirley) - most trains terminate here. It then serves villages like Wythall, before embarking on a series of in-the-middle of nowhere request stops, punctuated by Henley-in-Arden, before getting to Stratford just over 50 minutes after leaving Birmingham Snow Hill.
The Camp Hill Line runs through the North end of Sparkbrook, Balsall Heath, Moseley, and King's Heath, before veering off to the West to join the West Suburban Line (aka Cross-City South) at King's Norton. It was closed to local passenger traffic in 1941; not because of lack of demand (ridership was booming), but because of the war. There is significant demand for this to be re-opened to local passenger service. However, this is held up by a number of obstacles:
1) Capacity between Grand Jct and Birmingham New St station - this could be solved by a Bordesley West curve, diverting the trains into Moor St.
2) Long distance train operators (notably Virgin Cross Country) use this as a diversionary route when their train has missed its slot on the West Suburban Line (which has heavy local traffic). They don't want their train getting any later to Bristol because of being stuck behind another suburban train.
3) 4-tracking (to avoid problem 2) is rather difficult - there's a pretty long tunnel just South of Moseley which is just one of the many tight sections on the line.
4) It doesn't go anywhere much after King's Heath.
You can see these lines on the following map. The Camp Hill Line is the one passing through Moseley with no stations on it. The North Warwickshire line is the one passing through Hall Green (with lots of stations on it). The major traffic corridors are the A435 and A34. You can get maps like these using the get-a-map function at the Ordnance Survey.
Personally I much prefer the Manchester's Metrolink livery, which looks quite elegant.
It's a nice livery (especially when compared to Midland Metro).
Liverpool and Newcastle are smaller cities, but both have heavy rail, partly underground; then both have rivers to cross.
Liverpool is England's third largest city, with a population of 461,900. This doesn't look great compared to second-place Birmingham on 971,800. If you let the Scots in, both of these slide: Glasgow is now estimated at 1,099,400 (but they have a subway). Before anyone says I should use agglomeration figures, I will when someone comes up with a set that doesn't claim that Liverpool is part of Manchester!
Newcastle is more perplexing: it's 20th in England, 24th in Great Britain and 25th in the UK (ie it's smaller than Belfast!), with a population of only 185,700 (however, it's the only town of any size for a long waya round).
Liverpool also had the World's first electric elevated railway (opened 1893), but sadly it was demolished for want of cash.
Short-sighted decision of the millennium.
That is bizarre. Sheffield, with a well-used LRT sytem, manages with one conductor per tram.
"Liverpool is England's third largest city, with a population of 461,900. This doesn't look great compared to second-place Birmingham on 971,800. If you let the Scots in, both of these slide: Glasgow is now estimated at 1,099,400 (but they have a subway). Before anyone says I should use agglomeration figures, I will when someone comes up with a set that doesn't claim that Liverpool is part of Manchester!"
But it *is* more realistic to use conurbation figures, even if it's difficult to define where Greater Manchester stops and Greater Liverpool starts. For example a good proportion of the Merseyrail system isn't in Liverpool city, it's across the Mersey in Birkenhead (in the Borough of Wirral). When judging whether a city can justify rail rapid transit investment you have to consider the whole metropolitan area, not just the narrowly defined, historical-accident boundaries of the central city.
"Newcastle is more perplexing: it's 20th in England, 24th in Great Britain and 25th in the UK (i.e. it's smaller than Belfast!), with a population of only 185,700 (however, it's the only town of any size for a long way around)."
Again the conurbation figures would be more realistic - most of the Tyne & Wear Metro is outside the city limits of Newcastle, though I guess most of the new construction is actually inside it, the suburban parts being on re-used old railway ROW. The conurbation, including the boroughs of North Tyneside, South Tyneside, Gateshead and Sunderland (all served by the Metro), must total over half a million people.
One explanation for Newcastle's "perplexing" possession of a good rapid transit system is that Tyneside got its act together first, when it came to seeking funding.
Finally, a plug for my former place of residence, Nottingham (population a shade under 300,000, metropolitan area maybe 500,000 or so, but where does Nottingham finish and Derby start??):
Line 1 of their LRT opens any day now, most of it built on the old ROW of the lamented Great Central Railway. We'll see if it does a better job than Midlands Metro.
The on street running section is utterly gratuitous.
But I thought it took you to the centre of Wolverhampton.
after 4-tracking Dorridge to Moor St
An expensive undertaking to save a few minutes to two trains per hour.
There are two lines across South Birmingham: the Camp Hill Line and the North Warwickshire Line.
I like your descriptions of these lines, and I see what you mean from the map.
They don't want their train getting any later to Bristol because of being stuck behind another suburban train.
That seems to be the same problem as the Dorridge line, and your solution again would be expensive. If there is sufficient demand, I think the Camp Hill line should be re-opened for local service, and let the few express trains get stuck if they cannot fit in with the local schedule.
Before anyone says I should use agglomeration figures, I will when someone comes up with a set that doesn't claim that Liverpool is part of Manchester!
For urban agglomerations with one million inhabitants or more, see Principal Agglomerations of the World. But first read the introduction, which shows that they are aware of the pitfalls.
Newcastle is more perplexing: it's 20th
Considered as an agglomeration, the above source ranks it 385th in the World and eighth in the UK, behind London, Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds, Glasgow, Liverpool and Sheffield. Newcastle's population is given as 1,075,000, which happens to be the population of Tyne and Wear metropolitan county. That includes Sunderland.
If it ran into Wolverhampton Low Level station, it would terminate next to both High Level station and the Bus Station. It would be at the NE corner of the City Centre.
Its currently diverted onto the Bilston Road, adding to congestion and causing numerous accidents at Priestfield, to serve an industrial area at the Royal (one of the most pointless stops on the line) and then terminate in arguably a marginally better position on the SE corner of the City Centre.
Now Birmingham, Alabama is another matter. It's laid out in a very linear manner along the side of a mountain ridge, so a even a single rail line running the length of the metro area could be pretty useful. I've never drawn up a map, but I think about it from time to time.
Mark
While playing BVE, I was wondering how my northbound Q Diamond was going to wrong-rail all the way up to 42nd St from Prospect Park, and just as I was halfway through the switch, the train went BACK across the diamond crossover and onto the track I just came from! I was like WTF!!!!
And it happened again...when I left Canal Street, the train started to switch to the local track, but upon reaching the diamond of the diamond crossover, the train switched BACK OVER to the express track!!!
We ship off jobs to China and India ... I get paid what THEY get paid and I'm married to the CEO! (Bingbong) ... *WHAT* economy?!?!?! :(
But definitely gotta check this out ... birthday for me on the 15th. I share it with many nobles ... alas, I'll be working that too.
And for future reference, let's try and keep this on the BVE forum.
On the E line, I got switched to the local track twice - at Van Wyck and again at Continental. I think those switches are about 75m long.
The problem is, most of the switches in most of the BVE routes are 50m long diamond crossovers, so that's going to happen quite a bit.
This is the first time I've posted pictures on the internet. Feel free to make comments, suggestions, etc of the albums.
The links to the albums are:
http://www.subwayspot.com/gallery/09Nov2003-MOD-Trip
http://www.subwayspot.com/gallery/28Sept2003-MOD-Trip
http://www.subwayspot.com/gallery/27Sept2003-MOD-Trip
More pictures will be forthcoming.
Koi
Chuck Greene
Koi
Koi
Regards,
Jimmy
Koi
Regards,
Jimmy
(Spot the error, brahs!) lol hadda keep the rhyme going!
Jimmy
Regards,
Jimmy
Koi
Wha-wha-wha-what 1/2/3/9 font did the book cookers NOT get right??
1HaventSeenThis9
34th st and 7th Ave/NW Corner
33rd St and 7th Ave/NW Corner
So finally, 34th St and 7th Ave will become a true 24/7 ADA accessible station once the street elevator at 33rd st and 7th Ave, by FootAction store opens, plus the 2 new elevators leading to the local platforms also open. Right now it has the dubious distinction of being the only accessible staion that is UNaccessible during midnight hours. (Late night #2 service runs local in Manhattan, which uses the side local platforms.)
Also my special thanks for American Pig for helping me with the correct http code that opens the link in a new browser window. So no one should complain that when you close the browser window, you lose Subtalk.
These were running on the same schedule as last Sunday. I spoke to a Bombardier supervisor who told me that they were NOT running on last Sunday's schedule.
I caught the next southbound at 27th Street and hustled up to River Road, Pennsauken, where I got kinda cold because the trains weren't running on last Sunday's schedule, and this one was 10 minutes "late".
I caught the next southbound at Cove Road, and went up to Pennsauken Creek for a nice bridge shot. It was freeze hands time, because this train "lost" a few more minutes while I was standing out in the wind (and sun, fortunately) on the River Road bridge over Pennsauken Creek, when I saw the northbound approach. I had the camera ready to snap off a shot, and the car didn't enter the bridge! I finally stopped lookoing through the viewfinder and saw the car stopped just off the bridge at the south end. I suspected that it was a single track bridge, and was proven correct when the southbound came along. I then ran up to the River Road bridge over Route 73, and WAITED in the wind until the northbound got a signal and crossed Pennsauken Creek, and crossed Route 73 shortly thereafter.
Regards,
Jimmy
As for the cars, they look just as cool in person as they do in the pictures. I wish I had a chance to see them some more and take more pictures.
Another thought I had was that an extension to Hobby airport would be a logical plan for the line since it's already aimed in that general direction anyway.
Mark
Mark
Those cars are just plain beautiful. Although they are slower than the HBLR, I'm still jealous. What's amazing is they built a light rail for about 1/3 the cost of the HBLR and it covers almost as much territory. I suspect the cost when it's completed will be half a billion dollars.
A bargain in my opinion.
Mark
a. Expanding Urban sprawl
b. Expanding highways while defunding mass transit
c. Destroying our forests and wild life with little regard for the
environment for the sole intent on building single family homes.
d. Suporting an expensive auto-centric only form of transportation because it's our national right!
Folks.. I happen to think there are a lot of people who would agree with this organization. I happen to believe that becoming an auto/oil dependant nation has added to our problems and not the lack of affordable single family homes.
http://www.americandreamcoalition.org/
Yes, and they're called Republicans.
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
Mark
Now, you got shanties that are what, 200 a month, and they come in and build beautiful things(counting maybe 8 towers now ready to go, plus a new 100 acre d/t deal). Of course the nice apartments are at least 1000 dollars more than what's next door. The land isn't what's expensive apparently. It's what you're selling. Cadillac vs. honda, i'm sure you can build very nice reasonable prices places to live, but the market will obviously bear very upscale "values".
Of course, from experience, if living in the sprawl a slave to my car with no human interaction is the american dream, maybe it's time for me to move.
The affordable housing is in the OLD suburbs at the edge of the original cities: hard to park, bad bus service, rising crime. The very oldest in-town land is getting gentrified, but the WWII Cape Cods are being taken over by the young families and immigrants. I shudder to think what will happen when gasoline prices shoot up.
The biggest difference between the two in my mind for the price:
the ones in the picture, that cycle will probably always happen, nice urban in-fill every xx years.
The suburbian ones in the middle of no-where will start to get run down and turn into a bad neighborhood as people flee to the next outter ring.
Thinking of that, i have a hard time dealing with suburbs on a long term basis.
Mark
Mark
With tear-downs or some urban farmland, the land is worth so much more than the house, that it might even be held off the market, unproductive, to get the price up and keep the taxes down. Downtown parking lots are like this. As the fashions changed in the nineteenth century it kept happening along lower Broadway, then Astor Place, Washington Square and then up 5th Avenue. One immense stone mansion on 5th Ave. lasted five years before they tore it down for apartments.
What makes you think living in the "burbs" is affordable? Homes in Long Island far away from the rail line are costing 350K and up! Try finding an affordable home in Paramus New Jersey? I hope you and your spouse are making combined income of 150K a year!
The whole notion that affordable housing exists in the burbs is nonsence. In the past three years, we have witnessed real estate prices in the burbs go through the roof.
So what is really needed is a way to make sure housing is affordable in whatever setting we're dealing with. I think there are organizations other than the one in question who are doing more to address those problems.
Mark
I'm glad you noticed this. It's amazing how many communites are pricing themselves out to keep minorities from moving in the neighborhood. Furthermore, I'm noticing many new (expensive) communites in the burbs that are enclosing themselves behind gates and walls.
Was it you who mentioned the abilty of emergency vehicles to reach emergencies? Those walls meant to keep out criminals are quite effective at keeping the pumpers and ambulances out when they're needed as well. Fire departments hate them.
Mark
I always say, live wherever you want, but build you're own house, no one would stop you then.
If an alarm comes in from an address in a gated community with locked access, the FD's are permitted to burn the gate off it's hinges.
A proper solution to an all-too common problem.
If you want to know what happens when a city becomes auto centric, read Asphalt Nation by Jane Holtz Kay. It's an eye opener on what we are doing to ourselves.
Kay, Jane Holtz
Asphalt Nation: How the Automobile Took over America
and How We Can Take It Back.
Theyre are many books on urban developement and how it can be done properly. This site list many books on this topic plus others that will make good reading.
http://www.carfree.com/print.html
That's it, i can't analyze this nazi crap anymore. My state has so much smart growth and inner-city projects going on, these people have no say. We still got widespread sprawl and other things going on, but once the people live in them for a year or so, they all get fed up.
Front page sunday paper(once a month story), people frustrated by traffic, and there was a good half that were surveyed said they want better transit(and the system sucks big time). Sales tax proposals even get shot down now because people are afraid of more sprawl from more roads.
There needs to be a real coalition. I'm tired of this.
I clicked on their links, more news that turned my world upsdie down.
"The End of the Road for the Electric Vehicle......As we said three years ago, the battery-powered electric car, of which only 216 were sold or leased in California last year, seems like it is destined to remain a "car of the future" for years to come."
*wow, and to think, while i was eating lunch today, I had an article in my hand about maybe 5-6 new vehicles coming out in 2004 that are zero emissions, either hybred, electric, or just close to zero emissions are coming out. 60-70mpg. Of course, these are going to cause global problems themselves anyway....
"The Backlash Against 'Smart Growth'"
The title says it all. Of course, they aren't building them fast enough, and I'm pretty sure I couldn't buy into it fast enough before they sell out If i tried. Most look full to me, and wow, who doesn't want to live downtown or in a nice little place nowadays. It's either that or a ranch for me.
Salaries in the cities pay much higher with better chances of career growth. While the goods are lower cost, this is negated to the need of car ownership. Rapid-response emergency services is also found in the cities where the best hospitals and physicials in the world are located.
Mark
"Rapid-response emergency services is also found in the cities where the best hospitals and physicials in the world are located."
-What do you mean here? I was thinking of regular EMS's complianing they can't get through gridlock, as opposed to the world reknowned heart center in Sarasota.
This complaint of grid lock holding up EMS occurs only in cities is bogus. It depends on the time of day and location in general. I don't think anyone calling for EMS in Brooklyn or Queens should have any problems during the day. The average response time of EMS (where I live) in Bayonne NJ is about 15 minutes.
Furthermore, Gridlock is not an exclusive problem that occures only in cities. I would like to know the response time to EMS in Paramus during rush hour!
Which hospital would you rather be during an emergency?
a. Beth Israel Medical Center in NY
b. Little Sitters of the Poor Medical Clinic in KY
That's for sure. Hattiesburg, Mississippi, a metro area of about 70,000 people, has some of the worst traffic I've ever seen anywhere and it's all due to suburban sprawl.
Mark
I have to be honest, I haven't seen a pic or seen traffic as bad in NYC as I do anywhere else. Not even philly.
I was on a bus at 34th once and I think there was a parade going on, and the bus still moved BETTER than I do in some cities!
Mark
http://www.habitat.org/
SINCE WHEN ARE THE SUBURBS CHEAP??? Now I remember, I could never live in the suburbs growing up(stuck into the city school district), and whenever we knew someone who moved out there, they would ALWAYS joke and say "they're movin' on up", and so on!
*waiting for the day when they put one piece of factual info on those sites*
[The preceding was a non-sensical rant from me in my cold-medicine induced stupor.]
After looking at the site, I was hoping to find a disclaimer that this was some kind of parody site. Now being satisfied that it is not, then I have to declare this “coalition” to be traitors to the flag.
Of course, their rhetoric concerning “rail transit boondoggles” neglects to point out that said boondoggles sustain the economies of the largest cities in the nation, which could not do without them, and any city that does not have these so-called boondoggles does not experience growth and financial prosperity.
The next grave error in philosophy comes to where they expound (indirectly, albeit) the false notion that driving is the right of every American. Everyone knows this to be an utter fallacy—as the driving manuals of every state have written on their first pages, “Driving is a privilege, NOT A RIGHT” and not every human being deserves to own an automobile nor deserves to be permitted to drive an automobile or any other road vehicle (never mind those that lack the ability to drive, whether mental or physical).
The most anti-American bit of rhetoric on the site has to be their stance against “limits on rural development,” which makes them look utterly and flabbergastingly ignorant as to where food and oxygen come from. Food is not made by replicators like on Star Trek, gentlemen (or so I assume you to be)…! Not to mention, once you breathe out your carbon dioxide, do you know how it is turned back into oxygen molecules for you to breathe in and thus stay alive?? Such so-called limits on developing rural areas into suburbs are in place to prevent the USA from turning into Mordor.
Afterall that's the american way ain't it?
Not to mention the fact of how they only advocate one type of living, which is unamerican themselves. Subdivisions.
So much for being United.
I have actually read some articles arguing the ecological benefits of auto travel (read: auto travel has little negative effect on air quality)
Tell them to explain how Ireland’s greenhouse gas emissions have increased by 39.4 percent over the past decade. All caused by increased car and truck usage, not to mention that the European Union stipulated that Ireland was only allowed a 13 percent increase in the emissions of such gases by the year 2010. They’re over three times their permitted output. Now compare the USA…
I don't call having no choice being a choice.
Anti transit, anti environment crap like this is the type of filth that brung thos country into the shithole it's in.
Besides the stupid #%#$# part where there's usually one exit/entrance...
school buses, don't go inside. Parents have to DRIVE to the entrance and drop/pick up their kids. Sometimes they live one or two miles form the entrance, the kids will never make it!
And of course the police and fire issue were covered.
How nice it must be to pay an "association" to take care of the roads and sidewalks(developer subsidary), instead of a REAL government. Could imagine the cost cutting going on there. Sometimes though the developments get big enough and are starting to incorporate into real cities. Interesting result gone wild there.
The shoelaces and the cord were decoys.
Chuck Greene
What happened? He lost another bet, or did the temperatures this weekend pass the "must wear pants" threshold? ;)
#3 West End Jeff
Him or just his HAIR?
2) He's wearing a long sleeve sweatshirt
3) He's not having a good time, but having a blast
Regards,
Jimmy
Momma finally put her foot down, and/or Lincoln finally listened to his momma.
And the OTHER nice R16 is in KINGSTON, not Branford. And coming along nicely. Wasn't aware that the "TA museum" had one ... never been there. Something about trains not moving and no handle time I s'pose. :)
Last time I came *home* was December of 2001 since everyone was bussing that the terrorists were gonna do it again (just like EVERY Christmas/New Years) ... *HAD* to be there, despite the cost. As a bonus, hooked up with a BUNCH of subtalkers for Crispness eve foaming and getting to meet everybody from Dave to Dougie to Bill Newkirk - hell ... even Unca HEYPAUL made an appearance. After we all parted ways, got to do a post-midnight run of a genuwine R143 on the Canarsie line with a TSS who was retiring the next day and the Kawasaki dewds that were doing the pre-acceptance testing. Whoot! That was a TRIP! :)
Got a cab ride with another buddy who left the MTA a couple of days later for another railroad, and got to operate again on revenue trackage, sans geese. First time I ever did A division elevated. That was a treat as well.
But the bottom line is that I had my "core foaming" cured when I went to work the D train back in 1970. Having a genuine TA badge both in the middle and up front kinda changed me ... I get no joy from being a "geese" riding around, and static displays of trains are a huge ho-hum as well. We have 1801 here in Smallbany (Arnine) and despite what the State Museum did to it, it suffices for a "static display" of "no fun."
For ME, the thrill is OPERATING having been out of it for all these years. Riding around just don't do it, and staring at things I remember fondly in a REAL setting, used by REAL people is a disappointment no matter how shiny the paint might be. Hell, if you can't step up and slap the caps on the museum fleet, much less turn a handle with power off - just doesn't do it for me.
6389 at Kingston is REAL ... it eats 600 volts and if TMNY can get the money and the hands to make 6389 roll again under her own power, then THAT would be a far bigger joy for me that its sister sitting at a platform with the lights on and no movement. Just the way I'm wired I guess ... no offense intended.
But yeah, gotta get home again ... HOPEFULLY there'll be an economy again and people will start buying software. For now though, all I've got is the cows, the snow, the ice and the Dash-9's every 15 minutes. :)
Might diesel :)
BTW I think that R-16 at Kingston is 6398.
Bless you 4 that, brrrrrrrrah!
1Kingston9
1689 wears a scarlet "S" ... 825 is PURE ... ummmm ... OXIDE. I suspect that if I blow in her ear, she'll follow me home. BEST foamer marriages happen that way. (grin) 70 pounds, and you're MINE! Heh.
BTW I heard a news bit about a six-legged cow.
I was referring to the "blowing in one's ear" and combined it with the IND old timers having a tendency to want to sneak away if the handbrakes weren't set.:)
In other words, 825 just might follow you home. Then we'd have to keep it a secret from 1689.:)
Does he EVER comb his hair?
The baby blue/dark blue color scheme is just plain wrong..
Every time I go in that R-16, I say, "Jesus @#$%^&, was orange and tan paint too expensive, or what??" I mean, hell, what about the original light grey interiors? I'm sorry, R-16's are my favorite cars of all time, but that color scheme's gotta go, yo.
wayne
I said the same thing in 1955!
No one had ever seen a 15 before!
We never knew the Jamaica line was 15.
The BMT number code apparently was not heavily publicized.
Speaking of roll signs, did those R-10s also receive new puny little side signs, too?
--Donald
KIDDING! JUST a JOKE!!!
If not, it means I can assume the position once again on the R-1/9s they have down there!
...and at the end in the late 70's and 80's they also got the interior beige walls with orange doors that all the other carbon steel cars got (like the R27-30's, pre-Redbirds, R32-42's, etc). I do remember many still having the lime green walls with grey doors right to their end in the mid-80's too though. Many never got far enough to get the orange.
February 22, 2004 is the official date.
The rack at Borough Hall (at the entrance under the Municipal Building) was full when I first saw it. There are probably still a few copies remaining.
I have the English/Spanish edition. There are probably editions in Chinese and perhaps other languages. (Probably not Yiddish, though.)
On the plus side, the rehablitation is going on nicely.
On an even happier note, I managed to pick up the brochure. Good job, MTA.
Sound familiar?!
And if you ever read Train Dude's responses to people's questions, you might understand why so many people hate him.
Niels
"Station Beurs, U kunt hier overstappen voor de Calandlijn"
Great; now some foamer is going to go out and destroy them instead of hoard them.
Be back in 30 mins.
More info on the OFFICIAL COUNTDOWN THREAD.
I also concur that Bill from Maspeth shall let it go and enjoy the ride, now that the date is official, signed, sealed and delivered to a station agent booth near you.
Tell me, pleeze, what color are they painting that R-16 up in Branford or wherever it is??
But 6398's coming along nicely ...
Branford, Kingston, hell, north of McClean Ave., might as well be Timbuktoo :)
Heh. That's funny....I live in Carrboro, North Carolina, and the boys here get irked when I call it "Carrberry"..as in Mayberry, get it?
Yeah, tried the sooth ... didn't make it. I thought Jefferson Davis was a football player. Whoops. =P
Some southern kid I work with who is 22 and considers himself a gourmet told me I was crazy when I said that franks are supposed to have sauerkraut and mustard, he said, quote, "No way, relish and cole slaw"....ignorant bastard. :)
Seriously, sugar on a frank? My kid puts catsup and mustard, ok, chili, onions, ok, sure...but SUGAR?
For the love of GOD..why not strawberry jelly or chocolate sauce???
Hell, come to think of it, I bet that redneck ELVIS did that, by god.
Jumping Jehosophat.
When people were going to visit him and his family they would be going to see "Der Broncks" (I believe he was of Dutch origin). After a while it was used by anyone going to the area.
Listen, if you come to NC, give me a shout, you can see my email address at the top of this post.
You make a very good point. Looking back it is amazing how much harm Ronnie Raygun caused, and I'm very ashamed to admit I voted for him, but I was young and foolish then....................... Actually the first presidential election I was old enought to vote in.
Dole is a reasonable man who would have shifted things somewhat to the right, but in a reasonsable way - not created the wedge that RR did between rich and poor (whic W is has made into a canyon)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
See, you've got more in common with Sea Beach Fred than you thought!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
But I ain't eatin' it, either. :)
True story. And no, my cousing didn't say eh.:)
Not true. Jesse and I are acquainted (through our Lodge) and we certainly haven't had occasion to dislike each other (I'm a southern Jew), even if our politics aren't exactly the same.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
But I was bagging on the survey, not California. However at the same time, I'm amused that ya got stressed over something I didn't say. Kinda proves my point. Heh.
I note, for the record, that California has, not once, but twice, elected an actor to the Governor's office.
As oddball as politics are, nobody else has managed to do that.
What's next in LA-LA land polyticks? The "King of Pop" for Secretary of State???????
And another thing to note, both actors are currently Republicans.
I just remembered...
You LIVE up in Timbuktoo, dontcha? :)
MTA CONDUCTORS FO'EVA!
D.J.
Donald "The Slicer" Johnson
Donald "The Slicer" Johnson
IM running things!
Here, Turn up your speakers really loud for this one:
Click
I wonder if the male voice tries to put the moves on the female voice when the train's out of service in the yard. :)
I was trying to be jokingly mean by telling you to listen loudly to that bad soundflie, but thanks...
Really? No one, I mean NO ONE, picked up on that...
The West End, Sea Beach, 4th Ave., Brighton, Culver, Broadway Brooklyn, 14th St., and Jamaica lines will all get the R-160. The rest will get the R-164 car, which will be a remake of the old wooden gate cars.
Robert
Here's the Newsday Link
It's ONE thing for NIMBYs to not want a chemical refinery in their neighborhood. An electric RAILROAD yard? Geez ... I'd park all the diesels I had that needed to run SOMEWHERE on their grade crossing, just to say "hello."
I like diesels too, but electrification does provide very clean efficient service. Of course from a railfan's view, they "ruined" the quaintness of the Mainline when they electrified to Ronkonkoma.
This is the result. The quaint stations such as this are but a memory:
Brentwood:
It's also hard to believe that this used to be the little rural depot that served Ronkonkoma before electrification came:
For the Port Jeff, I can see electrification to King Park. Why not just build the yard there, on the old hospital gounds. The spur's ROW is still there, right?(I know it was converted to a bike trail, but it's still there).
Does the Port Jeff line really need trains every 30 min east of huntington? If so, how far east, all the way to Port Jeff? Doubt it.
The best thing would be to give the entire main east of KO to 39. Move 35 over there and hell, they'd probably run more frequently than LIRR does now. lol.
Well the base of the deadhead inefficiency problem is the fact that they need a yard to store the trains at. That;s what they are trying to rectify with the new electrification and yard.
The limiting factor in adding more direct Penn service appears to be equiptment and time. I've calculated in other posts that each DM train can only handle one rush hour trip on a diesel line (there's not enough time to use the same train for an early rush hour run, followed by a late run). I believe they only have about 20 DM engines, and you need an engine on both ends in order to access Penn. I think the standard is about 15-20% in reserve, so you might have 16 DM engines available. Which is 8 possible trains. They're already running 4, so by that measure they could potentially run 4 more (provided they really have 20 operational DM engines).
I wonder if the thing that stops them is a shortage of coaches. Each of the Penn trains is considerably longer than any other train on the line. Do they have additional bi-level coaches to commit?
CG
Ahhh, I have pleasant memories of a few hikes I took along that stretch back in the late 60's and early 70's. Used to go from Central Islip to Riverhead. Walking through all those fields was an experience. It was still farms and I do recall one time being really really thirsty around Manorville, and walking up to a farm house to ask for some water. Lady gave me some ice water! Real nice. And the station shelter was still standing. Just a shed overhang, but the remnants of the platform were there.
Heh. For a while, it was when the railroad had bus service instead of trains, going to Babylon for the connecting trains, what was that called, Ride and Rail? They actually had scheduled stops at those park and ride lots along the expressway, like the one on Rt. 111 near Kinkos. Anyone remember seeing the bus stop signs for the service? I do think there was a stop on the bus schedule in Manorville also, maybe near the old station site. Not a hundred percent sure on that though.
I have an old set of LIRR schedules from 1974. There was no "Montauk Branch" schedule at that time. It was called "Eastern Long Island", and had the Montauk Branch from Bellport to Montauk (Bay Shore to Patchogue was in the Babylon Branch schedule), and the mainline from Holtsville to Greenport on it (similar to the "City Zone Schedule", clumping the western stations together). Anyway, in 1974, apparently Manorville was already abandoned as a station as it is not listed. It does list Calverton, Jamesport, and Cutchogue yet though. The schedule has the Riverhead to Greenport mostly as the conecting bus service from Babylon.
And if anyone thinks east of KO service is bad now, there was only ONE train in each direction between Holtsville and Greenport. So the stations between Holtsville and Calverton only got ONE train each way, and they didn't even get the few buses that took care of Riverhead to Greenport, out of Babylon, where the buses started. That;s why they are on a skinny line in the scan below.
The Montauk Branch did not fair to much better. The stations between Bellport to Montauk only got 3 trains a day, with the rest of the service also provided by the buses out of Babylon.
So as bad as service seems now, it was much worse in the early 70's, and in the 60's as ntrainride mentioned. Below, see a photo of the "Eastern Long Island" schedule cover, and a thumbnail link to the "sheds" that ntrainride remember at Manorville. (The one below was taken at Calverton some years after the station was abandoned)
Calverton abandoned station site:
The LIRR then wrecked the service by orienting it toward Babylon, and turning operations to Schenck Tours whose drivers wouldn't know their way south from the North Pole. Buses routinely missed trains. No more over night layups at Greenport and crappy schedules lead to LIE Expressway stops to add patronage and turnover of operations to MSBA (garage at Zahn's Airbase). The LIE experiment failed, and went back to expresses that got stuck in LIE traffic nonetheless.
The entire operation was cut back with extension of several KO trains in 1981, and killed entirely in 1983. Same day trips to Greenport on weekdays, and to the city from Greenport on weekends have since then been impossible.
As for Sunrise, I just found out that they have been around since 1937. I understand your not wanting to take the bus. I'm just saying too bad you didn't consider it as another option as it may have given you more time at RMLI. Oh well, we all have our different opinions on some things.
Good point, too, about how changing the transfer to Babylon wrecked it. It didn't seem to make a lot of sense. Better to keep it near as possible to the rail line corridor, I think. Routing it to Bablylon smacked of a desperation move. I remember riding the bus once from Riverhead to Babylon and thinking about jumping out a window as it passed Islip Avenue, which was where I lived then. Instead, I had to backtrack from Babylon to Islip and walk up from there. Sort of an anticlimactical finish.
I don't know why they couldn't leave well enough alone. The south shore Road'N'Rail did not work well though. Loads were unpredictable, often ran in 3 sections, and got stuck in traffic. That was when Montauk Hwy was called State 27, before Sunrise got extended.
I often imagine what the service would be like if it existed today and ran in the same manner. Imagine orange and gray RTS Super Suburbans with manual transmission running out of Huntington.
Actually, its more the precursor of Amtrak-Caltran Thruway buses. Market research to develop it was very unsophisticated, yet it worked, as did The LIRR buses service, complementing the train very well.
I think the real reason the LIRR did it was to cut North Fork train service to the one train a day required by its NYS 1836 charter, uexcept for weekend overflows, and to keep Greyhound and Trailways franshises out. With the Road'n'Rail gone, they have Sunrise Coach, Hampton Jitney, and Montauk Bus eating their lunch because they don't know how to schedule trains or run Parlor cars.
Sheesh. That's too bad. Somebody at the Road should get into the fighting spirit on meeting and beating the competition. My goodness, always figured the "elite" Parlour Car service was a continuing success. I wasn't awarethose bus routes were noticably eating into the railroads' base. Buses should be thought of as the secondary choice to get out there.
The damn train should be the primo choice for travel to the popular spots on the East End. The MTA is surely not doing their best to encourage this. Maybe have a fancier parlour car type service.
Best thing for that branch would have been development of the Rail-Bus the Red Arrow tried in Philly. There is one at the Ct Bus Museum in East Windsor, Ct.
I think I've got a picture of a Huntington Coach/LIRR fishbowl in my computer courtesy of Steve Hoskins. If you E-mail me privately and put LIRR/Hunt Coach in the subject, I'll sent it to you if I can find it.
Patchogue has hourly serivce now for the most part off-peak...more at rush hour. 2 hourly service would not be enough.
Just East if Kings Park station
Port Jefferson before it was a terminal. The line extended 3 stations past PJ to Wading River until around 1938.
I know the Wading River extension was always 1 track. I don't know for sure about the rest of the PJ line for sure wither way.
From when? I lived in Smithtown from 1961 - 1980; my folks lived there until 2000. It was single tracked back then with passing sidings.
That said, I say bring on the electrification. I know people who would directly benefit from an electrified PJ line (even if it were only to Smithtown). Thougn I'm not one of them, I applaud the RR for attempting to bring electrification to those parts of the system still stuck in the past. The trains are meant to be used, not looked at. Quanitness should not be a factor.
As for the line east of Riverhead, I forgot to address that in your other post. Apparently there are plans in the future to run 39 between Riverhead and Greenport. That is definitely a possiblity, even if they increased service a bit (sort of to the levels of Montauk service). With all the wineries and other attractions the North Fork has now, a few extra LIRR would be welcome to make it a viable alternative to people driving. Now it's basically useless as a service or option to those people.
http://www.mta.info/mta/planning/portj/index.html
You can see that they've studied 19 possible locations in detail. The Kings Park psych site is apparently one of 6 still under consideration -- with the major problem being the need for an at-grade crossing of Route 25A in order to access the property.
See: http://www.mta.info/mta/planning/portj/kingspark.htm
CG
CG
Apparently the grade crossing would be close to Downtown Kings Park and would probably ruffle lots of feathers.
Also, there has been some discussion here that makes me question whether or not you can put a new at-grade crossing on a state road.
CG
The LIRR's purchase of the DE/DMs will probbably be regarded as one of the stupidest moves they ever made. It made no sense whatsoever, it still doesn't, and 10 years from now, wil look even stupider as the LIRR is stuck with either not being able to meet traffic demands, or electrifying further and writing off a realatively new fleet.
Lots of unanswered questions, and yet not only the T/O involved in the 12-9 is being disciplined, another T/O who tried to stop the train is going down too. All this over what NYCT should've upgraded their pre-historic radio communications in the Rockaways years ago.
But if an NYCT employee would spot an error on the poster, his/her requests to Dodo heads at 370 Jay Street to correct the poster(s) will be ignored.
Now, there should have been service advisories regarding the Q terminating at Times Square.
What a stupid inquisition at NYCT.
One of my GREATEST reasons for sympathy for my TWU brothers and sisters is that those who DESERVE to piss in a bottle never are required to do so. And GOVERNMENT employment *is* Dilbert on STEROIDS. Phucked me up working for the Paturkey ... those who run the trains are with the same destructive employer and the fools who supervise them who get put in their cubicles by POLITICAL appointment. :(
Ya wonder why I rant the way I do ... this is just ANOTHER example of WHY ... :(
There is more stuff here too but as discipline is pending. SHHHH.
Why someone would have to leave a radio behind to charge in the first place when you USED TO be able to do that on the train is just beyond my understanding. And it also seems that in an age of CHEAP REPEATERS, one would think something would have been done about "spotty coverage" some 30 years later than I experienced all this. :(
Sure doesn't strike me as TWU fault anywhere here either. :(
Back when I did the rails, radio coverage was pythpoor also - but the old tube repeaters have surely been replaced with more powerful, more reliable solid state repeaters by NOW, no? I just can't understand why what once was still is I s'pose. :(
IF what we read in Sanchez' column as well as what I've heard from others is true (have no doubts) my whole thing is why are just the T/O's walking the plank here. Compared to what this stuff cost in the 1960's and 70's when it was first put in, radios, repeaters and towers are DIRT cheap today. And the equipment is SO small, I'd have no doubts that a repeater could be readily installed in a relay hut on the wayside.
I remember what a struggle it was to raise ANYTHING on the radio when I worked the Brighton line. I'm AMAZED that there's STILL dead spots out in the open air today. Multipath in the tunnels was a bugger back in the old days, LOTS of dead spots. Technology has trudged on QUITE a way since then, can't fathom why that would be today with "diversity receiver" designs, better antenna designs and dirt cheap preampilifiers. To have read in Sanchez' column that there's a lack of chargers and WORKING batteries is an outright shock. Especially considering that there used to be HOLSTERS in the cabs where you'd slip your radio in and it'd get a trickle charge the whole time from the car's battery voltage. Only time you needed batteries at ALL was out on a platform or down on the ground, and you'd be recharging again as soon as you dropped the radio in the cab.
I may be misinformed, but somehow I doubt it. :(
Disciplining 2 senior employees in such a case is difficult, costly, time consuming and most un-productive. If disciplinary charges were brought against two employees as a result of the subject incident, then it involves facts that ray Sanchez either didn't have or didn't report.
My confusion stems from the fact that I don't know very much about how PC control systems operate, and even less about the different types that were built. I'm also confused by the wide range of terminology in printed rosters and other literature. The IRM roster includes technical information on our two Illinois Central motor cars, which have PC-101 control and (evidently) C184A master controllers. However, the motor car is listed as "PC-184A" and the trailer is listed simply as "C-184A", the same terminology used for cars with type M control. Help? How should this be written? [For what it's worth, terminology I'm using currently lists control type with master controller in parenthesis, i.e. "GE PC-101 (C184A)"]
Frank Hicks
www.bera.org/pnaerc.html
In MU cars the Control Group and the Master Montroller are two different items.
Based on my recollection of working at GE Erie in the 1950s and other contacts later, PC5 would be a Pnematic Control and the CJ129A is the master controller. In a motor car/trailer each car will have a master controller but only the motor car will have a control group and the trailer may the the motor-generator set and air compressor (DLW) I don't remember what the significance of the J is.
>On the other hand, I'm not sure about trailers like Lackawanna commuter cars. On trailers, where there presumably is no control group and you only have a master controller, what would the terminology be? These cars have C184B master controllers; would that be termed a "GE PC-184B" or a "GE PC-??? (C184B master controller)" type? (I'm actually not sure what type of control these things have - it might be PC-101 or something.) >
>My confusion stems from the fact that I don't know very much about how PC control systems operate, and even less about the different types that were built. I'm also confused by the wide range of terminology in printed rosters and other literature. The IRM roster includes technical information on our two Illinois Central motor cars, which have PC-101 control and (evidently) C184A master controllers. However, the motor car is listed as "PC-184A" and the trailer is listed simply as "C-184A", the same terminology used for cars with type M control. Help? Howshould this be written? [For what it's worth, terminology I'm using currently lists control type with master controller in parenthesis, i.e. "GE PC-101 (C184A)"] >
You should not say the car is a Control Group type. The car would be a Motor car, Pullman Standard 85' 74 seats etc. The control of the car is a PC101 with a C184A master controller, a GMG27 motor-generator and a Wabco xxxx air compressor.
bob gillis
OTOH General Electric used marketing names that obscured the
underlying implementation. Their Type "M" (magnetic) came into
the market around 1900 and underwent many changes and variations,
all called plainly "Type M". There were hand acceleration, automatic
acceleration, etc. Never battery voltage, though, to the best of
my knowledge.
Similarly, Pneumatic Cam (PC) was a brand that applied to a broad
range of cars from streetcars to transit to heavy rail. All PC
groups that I know of were automatic acceleration although some
(typically streetcar or interurban) had an extra "kicker" trainline
to force notch-up under current limit conditions. Some PC groups
used line voltage trainlines, others battery.
The most interesting groups are those that one manufacturer designed
to interoperate with the control system of the other manufacturer,
e.g. a WH ABF switchgroup that could also run with Type M.
Could someone please post the full bibliographical details of his new book, so that I can order a copy from the UK?
Thanks.
For what it's worth, the book is interesting but not great. I read it a couple of weeks ago.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Brian Cudahy
West of husdon lines,
Harlem,
New Haven,
Hudson?
Thanks in advance
I observed 4 antennas on the train roof-
1- An 800 Mhz cone-shape
2- Flat-disk (GPS) ??
3-Railroad-style bar (UHF)
4-1' high pipe-shape in the center.
I assume that #1 and #2 are part of the Seltrac signal and control system. #3 is for voice communicatins. (I have monitored operations on 453.375 anf 470.587)
#4 lines up under rectangular sensors over the plarform. I assume that this is for the plarform door system.
Can anyone confirm or correct my assumptions.
Ten dollars for a train ride is a little much ... for me, add another $12 for LIRR round trip.
To save a little money:
- Take the Q10 (bus) into JFK and ride to Howard Beach & Jamaica, BUT don't exit the station. Return to JFK ... that's 1.50 + 1.50, at least until the "privites" raise their fare to match the TA's.
- Drive to the Long Term parking lot. You'll have to pay park ... don't know what the min. is, so maybe someone can provide that element.
- Drive to the Rent-A-Car station (Federal Circle). Parking there may be difficult.
Just a few suggestions.
Oh BTW, we three enjoyed the ride very much.
It's not a fare. It's a fee to pass through an artificial barrier. That's why drivers who park in the long-term lot get to ride AirTrain from Howard Beach for free, and drivers who park in the long-term lot to use the subway have to pay the AirTrain "fare" for not riding AirTrain.
Search
The
Archives
HERE.
Take the A to Lefferts and then the Q10 bus to the Long-Term lot or to any of the terminals and get on the AirTrain there for free.
NO FARE IS CHARGED ON AIRTRAIN TRIPS THAT START AND END ON AIRPORT PROPERTY NO MATTER HOW MANY TIMES ONE RIDES ANY SECTION OF THE SYSTEM
CG
Most of the signs were displaying "Midtown 57 St/7 Av" however.
Is one track sufficient? It should be, since on weekdays the circle-Q gets by with only one track.
Or the Q could have been extended to Queensboro Plaza. W trains were overcrowded, since, in addition to their usual loads, they were carrying everyone bound for 59/Lex and everyone bound for the 7 train.
Maybe they should have focused on building light rails.
Opinions
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/world/2004-01-12-maglev-japan_x.htm
Anything has a future…but if the ride of this Maglev is as bad as purported, you will not get people to ride it despite how fast it can go—unless the ride can be improved, which seems unlikely. For a third of the cost and 80 mph slower, modern steel-wheel-on-steel-rail HSTs are a comparative bargain.
And LRT for what purpose? There is no such thing as 310-mph LRT…
Even the Flat Earth Society: a non-existent one.
: )
Mark
Now that the fastest Shinkansen can make the trip in less than 2 hours, I don't think we need a maglev line for such a short distance (500km). It may work in China, Russia or USA, where distance between large cities is nuch longer.
Think about how the London-Paris shuttle flight usage declined after the Chunnel was opened. And while TGV trains have already done 515 kph (in test runs), maglev's speed have not gone up much. It's not that they went 1000 kph.
Or any kind of rails... The problem I see with maglevs is that too much energy is required to simply levitate the train, making them potentially expensive to operate. If the energy saved due to a lack of friction is greater than the energy required for levitation, we'd be in business, but if it isn't than there is no reason to use maglev technology whatsoever.
Linear propulsion is another matter. It could be used more economically in hybrid systems that use it to propel wheeled vehicles. Some roller coasters use this, and light rail systems like Vancouver's Skytrain and Toronto's Scarborough Rapid Transit use this technology.
Mark
But, given that there isn't enough national rail planning to get Amtrak off the MNRR lines, who in his right mind thinks we can build even two connecting maglev stations, let alone enough of them to pay for themselves? And national prestige? Don't make me laugh.
Bingo. You said it before I did. Years ago, I saw some documentary on TV on these trains and it looked like a science experiment the way they handled the coolant. This was more of a science project than transportation. I can just imaigine how much the government is subsidizing each passenger. It would make Amtrak look like a highly efficient and profitable rail line!
Mark
Japan could save a hell of a lot of money by using exisiting High speed rail technology. It might not be 300+ mph maybe more like 180-200mph but hell thats pretty fast.
I think someone said it before, there's fast and there's fast, if you're going to fast on a train, by the time you're settled in, you've missed all the scenery and your trip is over.
Especially when you consider that Japan has lots of experience with HSR already, unlike the U.S.
Mark
I remember reading an article which claimed that the cost of a Transrapid guideway and the LGV-Est extension were about equal in cost per mile. I know that the LGV-Est line came in at about 180 million a mile, so, given the lessened need for grading and earthmoving since Transrapid can climb significantly steeper grades than even the much vaunted TGV, thus the higher costs for a elevated ROW with LIMs and lift magnets are defrayed.
Of course once either rare-earth magnets of proper power are perfected, or room temperature superconductors are perfected then it could be that Maglev would become more affordable than dual rail HSR. Operational costs, at least on tracks should be lower than that for the steel-wheel on steel rail trains, since the reaction forces against the rail from lateral forces can be more easily damped out by the LIM and lateral stability magnet system. This would keep the passing maglevs from exterting as much force on the guideway, thereby potentially extending the life of the structure by many years.
And there is one rare-earth magnet arrangement that provides Superconductor-like performance at room temperatures without any more power input than the forward motion of a Maglev passing over it. The Halbach Array is now a rather old idea, but it certainly has a lot of potential, at least as an interim solution, until room temperature superconductors or even more powerful permanent magnets are perfected.
Also, one thing that a maglev could do that it'd be hard to do with a steel-wheel on rail HSR train would be to run elevated over a interstate median. Imagine 2 hours by train from NYP to Chicago over I-80, another 6 hours at most from there to LA, by any of a myriad paths that are possible. A mere 8 hours coast to coast by land. And electricity is cheap, prices with a moderate government construction subsidy could pay dividends in alleviating airport crowding.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that a maglev constructed with either stable room temperature superconductors, halbach arrays, or rare-earth permanent magnets, constructed on an intelligent, high passenger yield route, will not only turn a profit, but will also fund the construction of other lines.
Imagine 2 hours by train from NYP to Chicago over I-80
That will not happen. You are depicting 400 mph average speeds, and planes cannot even do that at present. Not to mention that I-80 is very curvy and the median does not have room for a Maglev at all parts. Also, you would need a Maglev that could hit at least 600 mph. Cut it down to five hours and you may be back within the realm of realism—and that is assuming a dead-straight alignment (meaning horizontal straightness—grades are not a factor).
anyway i got off at court st and deciced to wait for an R40.an R40 N train came,it was R40#4292.i took it up to kings highway and took the N train (R40M#4460)back to pacific st and waited for an M train to
take back to marcy ave.i can,t belive that the MTA is letting the sea
beach stations rott.(no disrespect to that line)the paint is peeling off,the stairs look like they,ve been long overdue for repairs and the
MTA hasn,t done anything yet. :(
til next time
Pre GHOed R44: 126, 196, 171, and 119
R21: 7214, 7277, and 7281
R22: 7617
R26: 7854
R28: 7885, 7914, 7910, 7871, and 7808
Its number 7805.
Thankfully the MTA Information booth in the main terminal had plenty.
Link: click HERE
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
With R-142's moving to the 7, are they hoping for success here after failure on the L? Best two out of three?
All responses forth coming will be appreciated.
About when the Flushing fleet stopped caring about route or destination signs?
During the second QB viaduct reconstruction (1990's), a train operator's punch was installed at the east end of Queensboro Plaza, replacing the Identra function.
Sad but true, the signage problem is as bad as ever. The only real way to know what type of train is arriving is to wait for the conductor's announcement.
Instead of <7>s signed as (7)s and vice versa, (11)s will be signed as (7)s and vice versa. IMO, that's worse!
Even the front bullet, under the train operator's control, is often wrong, so whether they are supposed to show a circle 7, a diamond 7, or a diamond 11, if the crews are careless it doesn't matter what's on the scrolls.
The problem is the turnaround time at Times Square. There simply isn't enough time to change each and every sign on every train in the less than 90 seconds that the train is in the stattion.
And there's no excuse for the train operator not to correctly set his one sign, the prominent front bullet. Many of them do it, but not all, and if it's not consistent, even the correct ones are suspect.
B&O switch has nothing to do with Identra.
Signal geeks jokingly speculate that flipping the B&O switch
will transform the signal aspects to color-position light.
OK, but the real meaning is this: On classic IRT signaling,
there is a line battery of 14-20 volts DC. This powers the
home and distant relays and the pneumatic stop magnet valves.
The battery voltage is derived from transformers and rectifiers
along the line which step down from the 600 volt AC primary.
The B&O switch indicates the location of such a rectifier,
as well as an isolating switch for disconnecting the rectifier
and for breaking the battery line in half for troubleshooting
purposes.
Regards,
Jimmy
#3 West End Jeff
Regards,
Jimmy
#3 West End Jeff
But it can come back...for the 7's next car order. Using a idea like SEPTA's MArket Frankford line, A trains on the 7 would be locals, B express, (and once the new extention to the West Side and Brooklyn is built) C would be locals terminating at Times Sqaure at off-hours.
I say Panthers/Colts Superbowl.
And, before any of ya try jumping on me, I live in North Carolina now, so I'm backin' 'em. Plus, they're a great team. I like the Eagles, and wish 'em well, but I really believe the Panthers will give a good show.
:)
What’s the deal with the Mets Jewish Heritage? Did they have (do they have) a lot of Jewish players?
Also, when you have photographed multiple cards at once, they’re a little difficult to read–I was trying to look at the track map (is this the first instance of the MTA publishing a track map?!) on the Citysearch cards, but it was too small!
Oh, and if you could take a little time and organize the index on your front page again, it would be great! I was reading Pig’s SEPTA mid-winter trip report and was trying to find the photos you took but they are not to be found (easily–by me that is!)
However, in the search, I found your friend’s aerial photos. The ones of the 33rd Street yards are fascinating!
Thanks for your Herculean efforts in photographic documentation!
I don't know. It probably just refers to the Jewish Heritage of NYC.
Also, when you have photographed multiple cards at once, they’re a little difficult to read–I was trying to look at the track map (is this the first instance of the MTA publishing a track map?!) on the Citysearch cards, but it was too small!
The CitySearch cards scan was done at 150 dpi, the same as the individual card scans. In fact, all of the recent scans are all the same size. But the detail on that "track map" card is very small, so I will make an even larger scan of it when I get a chance.
Oh, and if you could take a little time and organize the index on your front page again, it would be great! I was reading Pig’s SEPTA mid-winter trip report and was trying to find the photos you took but they are not to be found (easily–by me that is!)
On this page, all of my recent photos are listed at the top, under "Temporary Albums." They are sorted by date, and most have a description next to the date. To find the SEPTA mid-winter trip photos, find the date of the trip in the list, and you'll also see that the album says "SEPTA Mid-Winter Trip."
Thanks for your Herculean efforts in photographic documentation!
You're very welcome.
scanned it at 300 dpi now, see last photo here:
http://www.railfanwindow.com/gallery/Metrocards
Never saw the citysearch (the very last four) cards, are they still around?
I never saw them too until I saw them on eBay. They are "still around" in the collector's market, but are not for sale by the MTA as farecards.
At all times, including nights and weekends, riders to and from Bay Ridge and elsewhere in southern Brooklyn will benefit from faster, more direct service via the Manhattan Bridge, with more service options. Both R and N service will run more frequently during rush hours. R riders will be able to transfer to express trains via the Bridge at both the 59th Street-4th Avenue station (N via 6th Avenue, Weekdays only) and the DeKalb Avenue station (Q via Broadway, weekdays and weekends).
Where did you hear this?
B trains via 6th Ave. will also be available at DeKalb, weekdays 6 AM to 9 PM.
Basically, it's the same basic service pattern that started when Chrystie Street opened in Nov. 1967, with two important differences.
(1) D trains will be the West End Line in Brooklyn 24/7
(2) Q trains to/from Broadway will be the basis Brighton Line service 24/7, with B trains providing express service weekdays 6 AM to 9 PM. This allows the B to be "married" to its current northern cousin north of 34th Street, which currently operates during roughly the same time frame.
Unfortunatly I got there late so it got dark, I managed to still get nice shots using high flash, otherwise nighttime mode would look ugly.
Tell me what you subtalkers think.
I think I understand you but slightly confused.
Its long enough for only 1 door along with some train windows in the station, but much shorter then it reaching the 2nd door.
Or do you mean just 2 stations(north and south)
I was only at one side(the side that goes to Brewster), I saw the other side but didnt goto it as it was already dark so I left then...
I did take 3 films. 1 in the day time(I was on the train looknig out the railfan window) and took a small 13 sec. video of the train passing both stations.
The 2nd one is of a amtrak train passing the station while I was on it, though that one came out extremely dark spite the small street light in the back.
The 3nd one is also dark but seeable, it shows 1 MN train going to NYC, and then as the gates close, they go right back up as a Brewster train pass's(Vid taken from Stephens Rd./Crossing)
Anybody else have comments?
TOKYO (AFP) - The paperless office might be dream, but the paperless toilet is a nightmare -- and a reality for the last three decades for those caught short on Tokyo's subway system.
But relief is at hand for the capital's commuters as two subway operators have decided to supply toilet rolls to cubicles, 30 years after the courtesy was withdrawn due to rampant paper pilfering.
Hygiene at Japanese public toilets has gradually improved from the intimidatingly primitive over the past few decades.
But many still lack hand soap and paper towels and some are still paper-less, obliging users to come equipped or spend 100 yen (94 US cents) on a pack of tissue from a vending machine at the entrance.
Teto Rapid Transit Authority, Japan's largest subway operator, and Toei Subway, run by the Tokyo Metropolitan Government, said Wednesday that they had decided to reintroduce toilet rolls at all major stations to improve "user comfort".
Most of Teito's 220 toilet cubicles at 168 stations on all eight subway lines serving central Tokyo and its suburbs will be equipped with toilet rolls by April 1 and the rest soon after, the company said.
Meanwhile, Toei said 134 bathrooms at the 15 main stations on its four lines will be furnished with toilet rolls by January 22, adding it will "use recycled paper that used to be train tickets".
Lavatories on Tokyo subway stations used to have toilet rolls from around 1955 until 1974, when the first global oil crisis triggered steep inflation and stockpiling.
Fearful of shortages and price hikes, panicked Japanese consumers rushed to get all the toilet paper they could find at the time.
"Toilet paper was often stolen during the oil crisis and some people simply toyed with it and wasted it, which forced us to remove toilet rolls," Teito spokesman Hideki Inoue told AFP.
Department stores, colleges and gambling parlours have re-instated TP way back but train stations kept on selling one-use TP for 30-100 yens for the last 30 years.
Highway PA's toilet are likely to have self cleaning bidets/toilets instead (and heated toilet seats) or old style Japanese bowls.
Personally, I'd prefer using "pay TP" over any other form of free stuff.
Then the walls of the tunnel closed in tighter and a rush of cool, dank air wafted through. My uncle told me were under the East River. Faster and faster the train charged and suddenly a loud bang, some drops of water rained in through the storm door window and I was truly afraid. The river was breaking through into the tunnel! But nobody else seemed concerned. They just kept reading their papers or staring into space. How could they be so unaffected by all these overpowering sensations?
A few years later I lived in Manhattan and rode the Lex-Pelham to work every day. During the summer I liked to ride mid-train right by the open storm door, the wind rushing through the cars, holding onto a grab rail that was actually on the outside of the car. From that vantage point you could look straight down at the roadbed as it rushed underneath to a deafening cacaphony of familiar as well as inexplicable sounds.
My car would fly blindly forward, trusting that the car ahead knew what it was doing. The headlights and taillights dark but intimately close. The endplates of the two cars would gyrate in a crazed dance, never guite on the same level, lurching back and forth, up and down. The chains between the cars would swing and jump erraticly.
In a car far forward the lights would go out for a moment. Then the next car. The momentary blackout would work its way back through the train and as it passed into my car, I would turn to watch it continue its journey to the end of the train.
I used to wish that ride would never end. Maybe that's why an aging man comes back to New York again and again, to that magic city where a boy from the midwest discovered terrifying but fascinating monsters galloping beneath the streets.
I've never had the opportunity to ride the railfan window of a subway train with headlights. I've ridden many without them, and it was always an interesting ride, straining to see details in the dark tunnel.
The headlights aren't all that bright, which I suppose is why a lot of videos shot in the hole through the rail fan window have very low picture quality.
We arrived back to JAY w/o incident, the first car was closed so no pics along the way, Arcingcatenary left us and pigs and I went onto Roundbush terminal where we changed to a 4 train to Fulton and then to PATH at WTC. Pigs delayed us for about 5 min with a bathroom break tho. We got off the PATH at EXP and boarded a HHGGT train to West End Ave where Pigs lead me to a Dairy Queen where we bought some cool treats. Well, I was needing to catch an NJT train so we got the first HHGGT train back that we could and yaddie yaddie yadda I left pigs with his new HHGTT map to catch a WTC train at Exchange Place.
I caught the first Newark train to Newark where I had more than enough time to catch the 4:57 Metropark express. It was an unexciting Arrow III so I slept for most of it. I got a pick up at Hamilton and was then dropped off at the Haddonfield PATCO station where I went into Center City and caugth an R8 to 30th St. The thing must have come out of Robberts as they demanded a ticket upon exit, nuy fortunately I had my Amtrak icket with me. I think those that were taking advantage of the unofficial free ride were just given a stern lecture. I arrived at 30th St at 7:16 where I had more than enough time to catch Train 137 to Baltimore. While waiting for it to arrive I got some good pics of APL-46 4602 sitting on track 7 with a newly arrived clocker. I don't know about the other cars, but the first was pretty empty, so maybe it will get cut back to Trenton.
Train 137 arrived BAl about 10 minutes down and I interfaced with Subtalker AEM7 who is attending the Transportation Research Board tomorrow. I hope to tag along and catch an interesting workshoppe or two.
Whew!! Busy day...I'm knackered.
Pics to follow.
PS: Thank you Mr. Catenary for buying lunch, your company was most appriciated.
I noticed that the PRR PL signals on the LIRR at interlockings in their waysideless territory have an interesting configuration. They have a full upper head ( --- / | ), but usually only a | or a ( \ | ) on their lower head.
This is very odd as the signal would not be able to give the MEDIUM APPROACH signal, which means you are diverging and must be prepared to stop. I don't see how you can be able to give a MDIUM CLEAR ( --- over | ) without being able to give MEDIUM APPROACH. I suspect that the LIRR does not convey routespeed information with their interlocking signals any more. Basically, you'll get CLEAR (|), APPROACH (/), APPROACH MEDIUM (/ over |) (this is for 4-block signaling without ADVANCE APPROACH), RESTRICTING (--- over \) and STOP (---), which are the block occupancy aspects.
Now, when I was on he Ronkonkoma Line 3 years ago I saw that on the ends of the passing sigings we would get MEDIUM CLEARs(--- over | ) or at least I thought I did. So, has the LIRR totally dumped the routespeed aspects in favour of pure use of the ASC re: routespeed information? Does the LIRR still have some routespeed aspects in their waysideless territory?? Did this happen recently or no?? Anyone know a reason for this??
Anyway, I think the LIRR is headed back onto my naughty list with MNRR. Well...naaaaah...they are installing new PL's and are 100% tower controled. I can't really be mad at them. Still, I can be disappointed.
Rumor has it that it's a test for eventual 'conversion'. I don't see the advantages to color - with position you can at least see far away and know it's not a traffic light on an adjacent road. There's issues when the bulb brightnesses are screwed up. But this is 2003 - LEDs and / or feedback system can fix that easily. Hang a micro with a PWM, 4 channels of a/d (ambient brightness, bulb brightness, bulb current, bulb voltage - the latter two give easy bulb out / short / tamper detection). Or just maintain the damm things...
I'll look next time, but I could have sworn there's still at least a few full lower heads around. What I can NEVER figure out is why the signal at Glen Street is constant on, the one a a few miles away at Glen Head is approach lit. Same line, same direction. Oh yeah, the one at Glen Street can show Stop and Proceed, (single bulb plus numberplate, IIRC) the Glen Head one's just a top head only. I'm not sure what signals (any?) are between the two, or what's beyond and what they are.
Its a dwarf and since there have been subsequent new PL installs I think the case might be dead. It is also at HALL.
I don't see the advantages to color - with position you can at least see far away and know it's not a traffic light on an adjacent road.
That is a big problem I have been bringing up. LED signals have absolutely amazing brightness, even at crapy angles. HOWEVER, I have not seen an LED signal that can match the blinding intensity of PRR Amber PL's. You know those traffic Arrow boards mounted on trailers and trucks. Well, the old incandessant ones match PRR amber exactly. They are still used on the NJTKP and their intensity just blows the new LED ones away. LED yellow is sickly and dim.
I'll look next time, but I could have sworn there's still at least a few full lower heads around. What I can NEVER figure out is why the signal at Glen Street is constant on, the one a a few miles away at Glen Head is approach lit. Same line, same direction. Oh yeah, the one at Glen Street can show Stop and Proceed, (single bulb plus numberplate, IIRC) the Glen Head one's just a top head only. I'm not sure what signals (any?) are between the two, or what's beyond and what they are.
Where do you live again??
Re the S&P marker light, that is optional. You only need the number plate. The S&P dot is just an added safety feature.
Besides, I didn't see you hoping to answer the question, only to insert your vitriolic negitivity.
"only to insert your vitriolic negitivity"
You're one sick little puppy.
You call one man a child molester because he disagreed with you.
You wish people to be seriously hurt or killed in accidents because they don't root for the football team you do.
And then you have the balls (small as they must be) to say someone is inserting "vitriolic negitivity". Personally I think someone seriously screwed with your head when you were a child.
Besides, I didn't see you hopping to answer the question, only to insert your vitriolic negitivity.
You're one sick little puppy.
You call one man a child molester because he disagreed with you.
You wish people to be seriously hurt or killed in accidents because they don't root for the football team you do.
And then you have the balls (small as they must be) to say someone is inserting "vitriolic negitivity". Personally I think someone seriously screwed with your head when you were a child.
Well, you can go ahead and believe whatever fantasies you want.
That is a HERRING and a LIE.
You wish people to be seriously hurt or killed in accidents because they don't root for the football team you do.
No, its because I hate you because of your HERRINGs and a LIEs.
And then you have the balls (small as they must be) to say someone is inserting "vitriolic negitivity".
I'm fighting acid with base.
Let me guess, you know I am so what are you?
Now I need to find out the progression to a SLOW APPROACH in the pre-MEDIUM APPROACH days. Typically that would mean distants would also need to display APPROACH SLOW, but I know that isn't the case so I am guessing they displayed straight APPROACH. Argh....I'll bet that PRR Pams guy would know.
back to our system and the 7. I spoke to a friend which does track work on the 7 tracks. He told me that in the next 65 days they are going to be a lot of G.O because of maintance and a change that will happen on the 7!!!! I asked him what he told me" you will see". Now does anybody know whats that? This source is very rialeble in the past ,but i have my doubts about the change. I quess will wait 65 days to see it,if it happens. 65-64-63
Some Subtalkers may be bright enough to read the table of Contents and decide which articles, if any, they are interested in pursuing.
I find it hard to find a problem with them. There are few topical railfan oriented newsletters and it seems to me that certainly it's a good way to get rail related news without the expense of subscribing to Railway Age or something similar.
Admittedly JM's previous post-whoring with the D:F announcements was moderately annoying, but certainly that should not be reflected onto D:F.
For example, I didn't know about that Exider train from Siemens, I was hoping that they might stick an OBB-style 2016 diesel with a DB Class 185 or OBB 1116.5 or 1116 on the other end to provide electric power in the Northeast, complete with a series of European passenger cars in between. Sadly it's just looking like a P42 pulling some random cars, possibly of european origin, it was probably too much work to get the FRA to allow the Euro locos or get the electrics set up to run on 11.5kv as opposed to 15kv. Still might be kind of cool to check out, since it's looking like some European cars will be used.
Oh well, just my two cents.
Pardon me for naively thinking that anybody on this message board might be interested in Not so easy finding AirTrain
or Far East offers different rails
, by Subtalker Todd Glickman.
I realize we already know this one: Loose rail may be accident culprit
.
I just felt that some of us intellectually challenged Subtalkers might have some interest in this nonsense.
WAIT! STOP! I am turning into...other people on this board!!!
I'm a nice guy. I am not like them. This will not do. Not do at all.
I will be taking a short hiatus from posting, unless there is a topic that I can contribute to properly.
Standing in line for 5 minutes in sub freezing weather while grandma climbed the stairs, one step every 20 secs, THEN had the conductor hand up her 2 well overside bags, etc etc, was yet another reason I was glad when I got my own car and didn't have to take Amtrak anymore.
It's a simple fact - level boarding is better, and the way it's done around here is high level platforms. Since none of the low level level boarding cars can service high platforms, if you want level boarding, you get high platforms. And passengers want level boarding.
Elsewhere, I dunno. I was in Lewistown PA, the other day (and I have some signal photos I must get around to posting for you) and saw some freights before our Amtrak arrived. I think that a high-level platform would interfere with the freight envelope so I can understand a low-level platform. However, it did take a while to board, as there were two passengers who needed substantial assistance to climb the stairs.
Use the Kawasaki low level boarding cars, or the Bomboardier ones.
Ok. Key words, LOW LEVEL BOARDING. This means level boarding on the lower level of the car by way of low level platforms.
Oh no, New Haven is high level. So what!? Build a low level and there ya go. It'd be a hell of a lot cheaper and easier than installing highs at all the other stations.
Use the Kawasaki low level boarding cars, or the Bomboardier ones.
LOW LEVEL BOARDING. I mean using cars like Tri-rail, Metrolink, or GO uses.
No one likes the stairs, but ya can't be so lazy. Still, since it's a commuter service and needs to be convinient, eliminate the stairs. How? LOW LEVEL BOARDING. Those who don't mind walking up small stair cases can go to the top level. Simple as that. All those RR's I mentioned before do fine with their low level boarding cars.
There is value in JM’s posting the topics separately. I know I can find D:F (the brain is running on just about enough watts!) I know I can remember when the latest issue is posted, but I appreciate JM setting up individual links to the articles, so I can choose from the Subtalk menu which ones I find interesting. The initial posts can also spawn separate discussion threads.
Now, if JM could do something about D:F’s noxious habit of putting all the articles into one huge HTML document, that would be real added value!
Agreed. But we're more likely to have a snowstorm in New York in August :-(
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If JM could get D:F to make their site browser neutral, then the non-IE folks could see what D:F has to say.
With any other browser but IE, the site's huge HTML document won't fully load.
Works fine with Safari (on my Mac). But I agree, the arrangement is a pain.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"Destination Freedom:subtopic" would be the teats! Seems whether Mike does the "whole muffin" or "just one" folks are going to whine either way ... YOUR suggestion IS the answer!"
Bravo! :)
The thing with JM's postings though(why'd they stop), was that he already had predetermined threads already up there for arguing...i mean debating....no no DISCUSSIONS!
If i replyed saying the florida bullet train unofficial website is pretty nice or etc on here, it will get lost in the thread unless one is smart enought to start a new one.
Or add a couple words to the title to draw attention to a comment on the Florida's 'bullet train' article.
Regards,
Jimmy
On the above link, the Second Av. subway (Q) and (T) service are plotted over an interesting edition of the standard MTA subway map. It appears to show the services taking effect as of 2/22/04, with two exceptions:
1. The (B) skips De Kalb and appears headed for the West End line, while the (D) stops there and seems to be headed for the Brighton.
2. The Bleecker St. station on the (6) is shown as a single station, with complete transfer to the Broadway-Lafayette station.
Is #2 above still on the books? Any news?
Bob Sklar
But it is part of the SDEIS, a document dated 3/4/03, so they were probably only guessing, or using an old map as basis. The purpose of the map is to show the SAS in context, and I don't think you should read too much into anything else on that map.
1) They show a potential transfer from the (T) at 57 & 2 Ave to the 6,E,V at 51 Street. If the 57 Street (T) station is to be located between 57 and 55, then this makes the most sense, but if they could locate the station between 57 and 59, they could make the transfer to the 6 plus the 4 & 5 and the (R) at 59. Allowing for a tranfer to Lex express.
2) Why end at Hanover Sq? I know they decided against tying in with the Nassau Street Line (why I don't know, this all but precludes extending the (T) to Brooklyn), but how about extending the tunnel to terminate at or near the Broad Street stop on the J. That would at least keep the possiblity alive of 2nd Ave Service to Brooklyn at some future time.
Bill
Quite a few options for the south terminal were considered. At one point there was a PDF file on the site showing all of the different possible configurations, but I think that's gone now, as Hanover Square has been chosen.
The reason for not terminating at or near Broad St, is that the politicians want to hold open the possibility of a new tunnel to Brooklyn at some point in the distant future, so the south terminal was chosen to be at a point near the water's edge. Such a tunnel probably wouldn't be built in our lifetimes, but considering the subway is meant to last essentially forever, there's an argument for taking the long view.
I think that would be a more important connection too. But don't forget to meantioned the N/W lines... We serve the same station as well and are probably the main reason why that connection is so important.
N Bway
They don't need no more trains in Brooklyn... Since they are planning on reconstructing a new station for the #1 at South Ferry to connect to the N/R, while they are at it.. they could build a terminal for the new "T" line.
The N/R will be the Brooklyn line to take up the slack when the new "T" is built.
N Bway
N Bwy
N Bwy
Because the Q train will run along 63rd Street and stop at 63rd & Lexington Avenue.
N Bwy
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/maps/historical/irt-1920.gif
Yes
Remember, these are IND-length stations. IF the MTA puts entrances at both ends, it won't be so bad.
They're using an old map from the days when the north side of the manny b was open and just made a few changes to it. I have about 8 versions of the subway map, and all of the newer ones have the 1 & 9 next to each other horizontally at South Ferry. Maybe this is nothing, just a coincidence. But the background color is white. All of the new maps have an off-white colored background.
While I am not keen on raising the cost of the SAS, and I generally oppose building stations too close together, I agree that a station in the busy 50th Street area should be seriously considered.
The map shows a transfer between the SAS 57th Street station and the E, V and #6 lines. The E and V are on 53rd Street, and the #6 transfer is at 51st Street, a long transfer.
Instead of the 57th Street station they could build two stations–one south of 53rd Street and one north of 59th Street.
That would better serve the busy business district and also provide more and shorter transfers. The "53-" station would have transfers to the E and V line, and the "59+" station would have transfers to the N, R and W line and (longer) to the F line.
42nd-Transfer 7/4/5/6/S/M15/M42/M104/M27/M50
53rd-Transfer V/E/6/M15
61st-Transfer N/R/W/4/5/6/F/Q/Q101/Q60/Q32 Connect Roosevelt Island Tram
72nd-Transfer Q/M72/M30
I think a connection with the "F" will be extremely expensive...
It's even the "F" or the N/R/W/ 4/5/6 .. and I go with the N/R/W 4/5/6 lines.
N Bwy
oh... if they gave me the option of which transfer they will build, I will go with the 59th Street connection instead of the 53rd St.. because 1) you got the express and 2) you just can't pass up the N/W Astoria option.
But it does seem strange that the stations are so far apart on what is likely to be the busiest stretch of the line. One station per ten blocks would not be excessive for one of the busiest business districts in the World. Besides, the Lexington express misses an important stop at 51st Street which is only a local station, and SAS provides an opportunity to fill that gap.
And the 72nd st. stop will extend from 69th St. to 72nd St. and the 86th St. stop will extend from 83rd St. to 86th St.
So, generally, gaps will be 10-11 blocks or less. I believe the plan is to have station entrances at the ends of the stations.
1) 44th St entrance part-time, 53rd St entrance part-time - 16 block gap at night.
2) 57th St entrance part-time, 69th St entrance part-time - 19 block gap at night.
3) 72nd St entrance part-time, 83rd St entrance part-time - 17 block gap at night.
This will be ideal!
N bwy
Of course, not all of it would be built at once. 66/2 and 116/2 would be 4 track stations with island platforms, between which the express tracks would be on a lower level. The local line (63/Lex - 125/Bway) and the full 66/2 and 116/2 stations would be built first. The J/T/Z stations would be 10 cars long but would only use 8 car train until Jamaica and Nassau Line stations were lengthened (if necessary). The lower level express tracks between 66/2 and 116/2 would be the last thing to get built.
They do. It's called the 6th Avenue line.
The second phase differs in:
- 57th St station located North of 57th St with a transfer to the 4/5/6/N/R/W
- 2 extra stations: 50th St and 8th St
- no line below Delancey St (minus 4 stations, but plus a transfer passageway from Bowery to Grand) - just a wye with the Nassau St Line
The major expenditure difference would be in continuing to build after the second phase, with the extensions to the Bronx and once traffic demands it, a "dash" from 116th St to 66th St.
I like this idea.
"The second phase differs in:
- 57th St station located North of 57th St with a transfer to the 4/5/6/N/R/W
- 2 extra stations: 50th St and 8th St
- no line below Delancey St (minus 4 stations, but plus a transfer passageway from Bowery to Grand) - just a wye with the Nassau St Line"
I like this idea except for connecting to the Nassau Street Line.. The infrastructure is not there.. unless you plan on expanding the track capacity. (you already got the J/Z and M - another line will just be too much for single track operation).
N Bwy
He's sending the J and Z up 2nd Ave (wye), so the only thing left is the M with the T.
N Bwy
Right now I'd be grateful to see them start digging the Stubway portion. Get it on!
Tell me why 12tph 2nd Av - Nassau, 12tph 2nd Av - Bway (Brooklyn), 6tph Nassau - Bway (Brooklyn) would exceed track capacity. Hell, it could even be a flat junction with that few trains.
For starters, there's a lot less money available for public works projects than there was in 1949. Just look at what Robert Moses was able to get built in a comparatively short amount of time. Granted, the conventional wisdom today is that Moses over-emphasized the automobile, and short-changed mass transit. But never minding what he spent it on, the fact is that he had an enormous amount of money to get things done.
That was possible in 1949, not only because a lot more money was available for these types of projects, but also because the environmental review standards were a lot less stringent. These days, designers have to fret about every tree that is lost. Moses was able to obliterate entire neighborhoods at the stroke of a pen, and there wasn't much anybody could do to stop him.
In 2004, it's just not feasible to build the SAS with four different downtown routing options — the three mentioned in the preceding post, plus the one they've actually selected. It'll be miraculous enough if they get the funding to build it one way. You're dreamin' if you think they'll build four.
Looks who complaining... the SAS does not serve the upper eastside very well too.. because it jumps from 57 to 72 and then 72 to 86/ 86 to 99th street.. that is utterly ridiculous!
I feel there should be a station b/t 72 and 86.. like maybe 79 st. but then.. how much will it cost?
N Bwy
The stations will be exactly the same length as any other IND station: 600ft - or slightly over 2 city blocks. Just by putting the walking inside fare control rather than on the street, you achieve nothing but a load of expensive long passageways.
According to City Block, the midtown Manhattan grid has about 20 streets per mile, and five avenues per mile. I don't know how accurate those figures are. 1/20 mile = 264 feet.
The 5 avenues per mile seems wrong, if only because each aveuue block is not a standard length. They all differ a bit -- look at any street map of Manhattan.
It probably applies to the numbered avenues, excluding Lexington and Madison but counting Park Avenue as Fourth Avenue.
The space between the First and Second avenues is six hundred and fifty feet; from the Second to the Third avenue is six hundred and ten feet. The spaces from the Third to the Fourth, from the Fourth to the Fifth (which is the Manhattanville avenue or Middle road), and from the Fifth to the Sixth avenue, are each nine hundred and twenty feet. The spaces west of number six are each of them eight hundred feet.
The distances that you quote are "spaces between avenues", so that they do not include the 100 foot width of each avenue.
Likewise the spaces between streets (about 200 feet) do not include street widths. All streets were to be 60 feet wide, except for 14, 23, 34, 42, 57, 72, 79, 86, 96, 106, 116, 125, 135, 145 and 155 Streets which were to be 100 feet wide.
It is interesting that the SAS stations are all located on wide streets. I don't know the reason for this.
Obviously Lexington and Madison Avenues were not a part of the 1811 plan, and I think they are narrower than 100 feet.
Easy connections to crosstown feeder buses.
Click the link below to find the info:
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=646294
So basically a city block is ¼ of an avenue block. Letting 5 be where 5th Av is and each city block equivalent be ¼, a quick look at the map gives:
12: 12th Av (29-43), West Side Highway (57-72), 12th Av (129-138)
variable: Riverside Dr
11½: Wadsworth Av (173-192)
11¼: Claremont Av (116-127)
11: 11th Av (21-59), West End Av (59-108), Broadway (108-169), St Nicholas Av (169-193)
10½: Broadway (77-104), Audubon Av (165-193)
10: 10th Av (1-59), Amsterdam Av (59-c194), 10th Av (Dyckman-218)
9½: Convent Av (135-150)
9¼: 9th Av (201-208, 216-220)
9: 9th Av (12-59), Columbus Av (59-110), Morningside Av (116-127), St Nicholas Av (145-148)
8½: Manhattan Av (100-124), St Nicholas Av (124-127), Edgcombe Av (135-141)
8: 8th Av (13-59), Central Pk W (59-110), Douglass Blvd (110-FDR Dr)
7: 7th Av (11-59, 110-153)
6: 6th Av (3-59), Lenox Av (110-147)
5½: Mt Morris Pk W (120-124)
5: 5th Av (6-120), 5th Av (124-142)
4½: Madison Av (23-138)
4: Park Av S (14-34), Park Av (34-42, 46-132)
3½: Irving Pl (14-23), Lexington Av (23-131)
3: 3rd Av (5-128)
2¼: 2nd Av (Houston-128)
1½: 1st Av (Houston-127)
1: Bookman Pl (49-51), Cherokee Pl (77-78)
¾: Av A (Houston-14), Asser Levy Pl (23-25), Sutton Pl S (53-57), Sutton Pl (57-59), York Av (59-92), Pleasant Av (114-120)
0: Av B (Houston-14), East End Av (79-90)
-¾: Av C (Houston-18)
-1½: Av D (Houston-14)
So we should be talking about the Two-and-a-quarterth Avenue Subway, then?
At 75 elements per km, that's effectively 120 elements per mile, or 6 per city block, 24 per standard avenue block, 18 between the easternmost avenues. This would put Metropolitan Av platform length at 12, the rest of the Eastern Division and all of the IRT except Flushing at 13, the Flushing IRT at 14, and most of B division at 15 (conveniently the cars seem to fit). What'll be a pain - and is where most layouts I've seen of NYC go a bit off - is stations and lines which don't fit the Manhattan street grid.
Nope, as David says, it's 264.
So 600 ft. would equal 3 blocks.
No, it would equal 2 blocks and a bit (3/11ths to be precise).
You keep the passengers out of the wind and the rain, and they don't have to wait at traffic lights to cross any intervening streets.
My solution: branch off the 63rd Street tunnel to a new terminal stop near the LIE. It could be elevated in the industrial areas and over the rail yard.
Restructure the LIE to include one bus-only lane in either direction, terminating in a bus terminal at the terminal of the new branch.
Restructure Queens bus routes in areas beyond the subway (ie. Whitestone, Maspeth, Fresh Meadows) to run local to the LIE and then express to the new bus/subway terminal.
Run a train from the terminal, through the 63rd Street tunnel, down the Second Avenue line. QB riders could transfer to the new service at Roosevelt Island. Bus transfer riders could get 6th Avenue service at the same location.
Only the terminal is saturated on the local. Another service could easily be fitted in by building a new terminal (eg in Flushing Meadows Park) or adding a branch off the local (eg along the LIE or the former Rockaway branch).
N Bwy
I began the day by driving to Woodcrest PATCO station from New York. I was to pick up Sir Ronald of McDonald, but he overslept and called me and told me he would be taking Amtrak. I made my way up Flatbush Avenue, over the Brooklyn Bridge, and then via Worth and Church Streets to the Watts Street entrance of the Holland Tunnel.
On the New Jersey Turnpike, I stopped for breakfast at the Molly Pitcher service area, and then switched over to I-295 at exit 4 for access to the Woodcrest lot. I parked in what must have been the last available space in the free part of the lot.
In the station, I met Jersey Mike and chuchubob and bought my ticket, we then rode to 8th/Market and walked through the Gallery to Market East East where we met TransitChuckG, R6 and Isaac Shomer. At this time, Sir Ronald called me saying that he was at 30th Street and that he would be able to make it to M-E in time. All of us now had day passes, chuchubob already had one, but decided to buy an extra to have as a spare, but because Sir Ronald was running late, he offered to give it to him so he wouldn't have to wait in line.
The next part of our journey involved the MFL to 30th for the S-S. The station agent did not process our passes at this time because the train was pulling in. At 30th we took the #36 trolley to Eastwick for the R1, using the now oft-discussed walking route between them that may have been longer than needed. The R1 becomes the R2 so that allowed us to go to Warminster. We paid in cash since through Center City trips are not allowed on the day pass. At Warminster, we ate at a Pizza place near the station before returning. On our return trip we had a ride on the Silverliner I (?) which includes the catenary inspection car (which is in revenue service). At this time chuchubob was informed that he would have to cut his trip short, so despite his best efforts, he still had a spare day pass. The rest of us got off the train at Fern Rock, and after an interesting observation of the yard, rode down to Olney and back up again for a yard loop trip. Then we got off at Girard to get on the BRS, from there we took the MFL to City Hall (not affiliated with City Wok or City Airlines) for a trip down to the Sports Complex before the Vet is blown up. Returning, having time to spare, we rode the MFL to some station I don't recall the name of which has a railfan-friendly overpass. Finally our last portion of the trip involved going to Juniper for the #10 trolley which we took to Overbrook. At Overbrook we saw a sign that said NO TRESPASSING. Yada, yada, yada, we ended up at the R5 station, and I had a more empty bladder. The last part of our trip involved food at a Chinese restaurant, after which we all diverged. The Philly SubTalkers took some rubber-wheeled vehicle while Jersey Mike, Sir Ronald and I took the R5 to M-E for PATCO to Woodcrest. Thus endeth the rail part of the journey. My record time on the turnpike is off topic here.
Chuck Greene
Mark
And... maybe a DC trip.
I asked a Bombardier rep last Sunday whether they would be ready for a Feb 15 start, and he replied that they are ready operationally now, but there are still some regulatory hurdles that have to be dealt with.
Originally published on January 8, 2004:
Getting rail lost - AirTrain to JFK not on subway map
Last Sunday was the VERY FIRST time I heard a C/R actually announce the PATH connection at Cortlandt St/BMT.
--Mark
BTW where are the signs that say "Free Shuttle Bus" at Howard Beach?
What's worse is that all the maps I've seen in stations and trains, still say "Free Shuttle Bus". Some tourists will have a nice surprise at Howard Beach.
Do I have to emphasize the "all the MAPS I've seen in stations and trains" part? I haven't been to Howard Beach since Aitrain started, so I wouldn't be surprised if Howard Beach and/or Jamaica/Stuphin have an updated one. At least, I said "I've seen".
If an NYCT CTA, S/A, C/R, or T/O saw this mistake on the sign and reported the error to their supervisors or management, their requests will be ignored. That's how moronic 370 Jay Street is.
Now imagine if someone did report the dangerous sandbag condition at Rockaway Ave? Now it's too late.
Case in point: A recent G.O. on the Uptown #6 line in Manhattan has ALL TRAINS running express from 42nd St/GC to 125th St/East Harlem. After the usual bell, a clear human voice says ALL TRAINS RUN EXPRESS and gave the instructions. People still got off and waited for the next train, thinking it was only a battery run (only some of us know what battery run means, I was setting an example). I yelled out real loud ALL TRAINS DO NOT MAKE LOCAL STOPS. Then inside the car, for real sarcasm, I said ALL means every train, not just a brand name detergent.
You said the wrong thing. You should have said, "THERE ARE NO UPTOWN LOCAL TRAINS TODAY. NONE."
Damned if you do, Dammed if you don't and damned if someone doesn't listen.
Especially for Air Train, it's time we started remembering that this is a confusing place, especially for people who don't live here, and confused people are easy to mistake for morons. It's an egotistical mistake and ultimately self-defeating.
I think it's probably a result of the Parisians being proud of their Métro. What I found really notable was that their staff were helpful and could issue me a correct zonal travelcard without me ever having seen a zonal map and only knowing which stations I wished to use that week!
So Airtrain, in it's truest form, would the the updated version of the "Train To The Plane", complete with the light blue color used when the old JFK Express trunk line was in use.
A few days later I got a December map in my mailbox with AirTrain listed in it.
Thank you, I know that. That's why I titled my post the way I did... It seems that a lot of people didn't catch that.
December 2003 Map Changes
Also, does anybody know where I can find a map of the 42nd St/8thAve - Times Square station complex? It's just an incredibly complex station...and I thought it would be cool to examine a map of the whole thing.
Many thanks!
The answer is on this very website, in the first paragraph of the page you should have checked FIRST, before asking SubTalk.
As Brighten Beach Gene correctly observed, this magic paragraph you rudely pointed us all to does NOT explain why the ramps are built that why...which is why I asked the question in the first place.
It's not hard to act like an asshole, so you're actions don't impress me.
NOW, back to my original question. Perhaps someone less rude knows the answer? I thought this forum would be a perfect place to ask, since many here are more transit smart than I...but people like Ronald are quickly ruining it for me.
Guess he didn't think thatmaybe you found SubTalk before you ever found NYC Subway Rosources.
Do you forget all of the great photos Brian's contributed to us SubTalkers? Makes him far from useless.
Here's the corrected link.
Oh, and Sir Ronald... do us all a favor and stop playing NetCop.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
No.
:)
"No."
":)"
Ahhh, the wonders of virtual digressions. I love dis joint.
p.s.: Play netcop all you want. It's just aligned pixels, my brothers. Funny as all get up.
Thanks. Will do.
:)
Does anybody have an answer to the original question?
Because the platforms are wider (as noted in the article) if the station was built side-by-side, it would extend beyond the sidewalk line into the basements of the buildings on either side of 8th Avenue. Staggering the platforms lets the station fit within the area of street + sidewalks.
Anybody know where there's a diagram of the 42nd st/Times square station?
--Mark
What Terry says is true. It seems you want to question whether the platforms had to be made so wide.
If I wanted access to some NYCT contract diagrams, how do I gain it? At which library are they kept? What sort of access is allowed to them?
The library is NOT the old Altman's store, it is across the street from it.
And why ? Who do you think you are treating someone like that ? He had a very valid , on topic question , and you have the nerve to treat him like that ? Who made you in charge of Subtalk and heaven's gift to it ?
It's a wonder anyone asks anything if they get asshole responses like that . You could have just given him the link if you didn't feel like answering his question (or just ignore it), and just left it at that without the rude remarks about perfectly good on topic questions .
Jeezz .
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
JFK=6th Ave, not 8th Ave. Sorry.
With all the service cuts, though, a new service to JFK Airport, "The Train to the Plane", was started on September 23rd,
1978. The JFK Express, a virtually non-stop ride between 57th St / 6th Avenue in Manhattan, and JFK Airport, cost $3.50
one-way. Patronage never grew to the TA's expectations and the service was discontinued on April 15th, 1990.
JFK Express - $3.50 in 1978 dollars
AirTrain - $5.00 in 2004 dollars.
Obviously the JFK express was way overpriced.
JFK Express - $3.50 in 1978 dollars
AirTrain - $5.00 in 2004 dollars.
Obviously the JFK express was way overpriced.
And you still had to take a bus!
I don't see why. AirTrain Newark is only accessible by commuter rail, and it has decent ridership.
I still think LIRR fares are unnecessarily high. It costs me $128 every month to travel 15 minutes on the train every day during the summer (Zone 7 to Zone 3 -- I buy Zone 7 tickets so I can go as far out to Farmingdale if necessary). It also costs me $128 per month to go to school every day (Zone 7 to Zone 1). Add to that the much more comfortably-priced $70 unlimited 30-day Metro-Card and you have a pretty steep price to go a total distance of 20 miles.
Heh. I recall getting into this with RonInBayside once (where the hell has he been lately?). I was a big fan of the JFK Flyer bus. It ran from Rockville Centre to the airport. (Later, it ran express from the Hempstead Bus Terminal to Rockville Centre.) It was a good idea, IMO. At least, for folks along the Babylon Branch. Local fare to zone 4, a lousy buck and a half to the airport.
I was sad to see it cancelled. The route offered those Long Islanders the same level of service as is available to those living in Brooklyn who take the B15 bus to the airport. That is to say, it allowed one to get there via the, uh, least costly method. I still feel it could have been successful if more effort had been put into its operation. Maybe a little construction at R.V.C., or Hempstead. Some type of dedicated shelter/bus stop. And combo train/bus tickets, ala what the Rail does for Jones and Robert Moses beaches. They are heavily used services; go to Freeport or Babylon in the summer months to see what I'm saying.
Merrick Road to Hook Creek Blvd, then Conduit Ave to the terminals. Later it was extended to Hempstead via (I believe) Hempstead Ave. I suspect it was killed in anticipation of the AirTrain and on account of low ridership. LI Bus also introducec some new routes at the same time, so the management may have figured the buses were needed elsewhere.
Here's where the idea of mass transit becomes really iffy. If I were going to the airport alone on a business trip, I'd be happy to take the railroad from Baldwin, even from Montauk, and use the AirTrain. It's one fare, I can relax instead of fighting traffic, and next to the price of a plane ticket it really isn't much.
On the other hand-- if I had a wife and three children and I were heading for Disneyland, then it becomes ridiculous. $25 AirTrain fare on top of, say, $50 railroad fare both ways is now a significant additional expense. I can't imagine too many families doing this. They'll still be driving to the airport one way or another.
The paradox of mass transit: The cost of an automobile trip remains more or less flat no matter how many people pile into the car. Mass transit costs (to the riders) increase proportionately to the number of people involved.
But then they would fly out of Islip (if they had any sense)
Elias : )
--Mark
* Trains were not crowded and all riders had a seat.
* Equipment was relatively new (R46) and kept clean.
* Trains ran as fast as the A express and sometimes were routed around slower A or CC trains.
* Parking was free at Howard Beach.
* There was a cop on every train so late night travel was nothing to be concerned about.
So taking the JFK Express was a good deal - if you could afford it.
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
City Hall BMT (LL)
Canal St
SWITCH TO EXPRESS
14th St - Union Sq
34th St - Herald Sq
42nd St - Times Sq
57th St
THEN NON-STOP VIA 63RD ST AND THE QUEENS EXPRESS TO
Sutphin / Archer
RELAY WHILST E TRAIN IS IN JAMAICA CENTER STATION
AM Rush Hours:
Trains leave East New York Yard, run lite to Jamaica Center, then in service, via the J/Z lines to Essex St, then via the F to West 4th, and either the 8th Ave Local and 53rd St or the 6th Ave Local via 63rd St, then via Queens Blvd and Archer Ave to Jamaica Center, then deadhead to Jamaica Yard.
Middays & Nights:
No service
PM Rush Hours:
Reverse of AM rush
Evenings & Weekends:
Service runs in both directions from some terminal in Manhattan (145 or 168 St, perhaps) via the J to Jamaica Center.
Correct. In 2001, when they opened final extension of rht e63rd St route to Queens Plaza, although they weren't a service at the time, the old JFK Route and the old KK route (6th Ave to WIllyB service) offficially died. There is no way to run a 6th Ave JFK train, or a "KK" like service without coming from CPW or Queens.
It did not! The V ends right at the connection to the Willy B.
Read what I wrote again:
"There is no way to run a 6th Ave JFK train, or a "KK" like service without coming from CPW or Queens."
The V comes from Queens.
I mean, think about it - if 8 TPH of G trains can terminate at Smith-9th (with neccecssary fumigation on top of it) every day in front of 15 TPH of F trains, there's no reason why 6 TPH of K trains couldn't terminate at 57th/6th, where no fumigation is neccessary. The problems are 1)capacity of 6th Ave local tracks and 2)lack of rollingstock.
David
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
--Mark
For the record, the only scissor switch anywhere along 8th Ave. itself is the one between the n/b express and local tracks just north of 59th St.
Interesting point nonetheless.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I have always wondered if the extensive public area outside fare control was the original plan, or if it was reconfigured when the PA Bus Terminal was constructed (circa 1950) in order to enable bus passengers to circulate below street level and thus reduce crowding along the avenue.
Similarly, does anyone know if the passageway to the 7 Av line was original to the 1932 opening of the 8 Av line, or if it was opened later when the PA terminal opened. The Flushing line was not extended to Times Sq until around 1930. IIRC, there was a fare control midway down the passage toward 7 Av.
By the late 70s, the passageway's fare gates had been moved to the 8th Ave. end. The rest of the 42nd St. mezzanine was still outside the paid fare zone except the immediate areas where the stairways to the platforms were, and even then there were separate fare zones for uptown and downtown.
There used to be signs, "Entrance for Aqueduct Specials at 40th St," all along the entire length of the mezzanine. The escalator to the lower level was at the extreme southwest corner of the mezzanine and was fenced off. It really looked as though it were abandoned, which it wasn't at the time.
There also used to be a hamburger stand directly south of and adjacent to the ramp leading up to the PABT. We used to grab a burger there on Saturday afternoons. There was also a toy store a few doors to the north on the same side. I would buy a Matchbox car for my collection now and then at that store.
I don't remember too much else about that mezzanine from back then. There were "Follow the Blue Arrow to Flushing Trains and Shea Stadium" signs, one on the ramp to PABT and another at the 41st St. passageway itself. It's interesting the way it's set up now at Port Authority. The area right in front of the ramps to the terminal is outside the paid fare zone, and there is a separate control if you want to use the southernmost stairway to the s/b platform. It was like that in the olden days, too, but the fare control was only at the staircase itself. I could tell from the mezzanine when an A train was pulling in by the loud CLOP sound as the lead motor would pass over an expansion joint, plus the R-10s didn't rumble and groan the way the R-1/9s did.
This isn't the 1940's. The Queens trains should be the ones that are Manhattan expresses, not the A and D.
Then, the E wouldn't have to end its journey at World Trade Center, but could continue to Brooklyn.
Last October, I noticed that there were still a couple of original signs on the ramp to the mezzanine from the original bus terminal (the portion between 40th and 41st Streets. IIRC they said, "To downtown and Brooklyn trains" with an arrow pointing to the right and "To Queens and uptown trains" with an arrow pointing to the left.
It's still correct, BTW.
Still there after all these years. The maddening thing is I had my camera with me when I saw those signs and didn't take a picture!!! $#@%$^!!!!!
That's one way to tell which ramp to PABT is the original one, btw.
http://www.americandreamcoalition.org/#defend
1. Myth: A single rail line can carry as many people as an eight-lane freeway.
Fact: No rail system outside of New York City carries as many people as one freeway lane.
2. Myth: Rail transit can greatly reduce congestion
Fact: Outside of New York and a few other cities, rail transit carries too few people to noticeably reduce congestion
3. Myth: Rails costs less to operate than buses
Fact: Almost all rail transit systems cost more to operate than buses running on routes in comparable corridors.
4. Myth: Rail transit is fast
Fact: Rail transit speeds rarely compete with autos; express buses go as fast or faster than most rail transit. U.S. light rail speeds average just 20 miles per hour and heavy–rail around 30 miles per hour.
5. Myth: Rail lines are built to last forever
Fact: Rail lines must be rebuilt and equipment replaced every twenty to thirty years.
6. Myth: Rail are always under-Budget
Fact: U.S. Rail transit construction has gone an average 41% over budget while highway projects average 8% over budget.
7. Myth: People won’t ride a bus so we need rails to get them out of their cars
Fact: Fast frequent bus service will attract as many riders as rail transit.
8. Myth: Rail transit reduces air pollution
Fact: Rail transit has an insignificant effect on pollution. Vermont cancelled an experimental commuter train when it found that diesel locomotives polluted more than cars.
9. Myth: Rail transit lead to economic development
Fact: Urban rail transit investments rarely create new growth says a federally funded study.
10. Rail transit is safer than highways.
Fact: Over the past decade, light rail has killed about 11 people per billion passengers miles, commuter rail and buses 8 and heavy rail 4. Freeways are about 4 to 5 and other roads and streets about 8.
Opinions:
Mark
Do you remember what happend during the blackout. There were hundreds of thousands on the streets with no where to go. All because the trains stopped moving.
This is a site for rail fans, and I would say everyone here loves trains, you have zero chance of converting anyone to a anti-rail position
Mark
I wanted to get your attention at what "the other side" thinks of mass transit. We never really hear the arguments against transit living in the New York Metro. Once you get outside, it becomes clear why only a handful of cities have subways or rail transportation.
As I said in a response to another post, I may have misread your intentions, sorry to have been so abrupt.
This brings me to a point I've made before. It's not enough to build a rail line. You have to foster denser land-use around the rail line so that it will be useful to lots of people. Making rail work means employing the kind of urban planning that creates transit-friendly cities.
I saw a tiny bit of this taking place in Houston as at the end of the rail line I saw a sign plugging a soon-to-be-built dense residential development, which touted as a selling point its proximity to rail transit. This is the kind of thing that makes rail work. I don't know how much more of this is being done in Houston or anywhere else, but it's an important part of the puzzle.
Mark
Excellent observation. I see the same kind of development going around the HBLR. In ten years when all those hi-rise condos and apartments are full of residents, the HBLR will reach max capacity. At that point, they'll be connecting two or more tains together.
Though you could probably set up a pretty good system most places by running trains down the highway medians (hey, you get grade separation for free and stay out of peoples back yards), setting up large park and rides at the major interchanges, and putting a good station right in the heart of downtown, with a good frequent network of buses to get you around the city.
Amen to that. See my two most recent posts in this thread:
the first one
the second one
Mark
Of course any generalization has it's couter examples. The area around Huntington Station remains pretty crummy for a suburb, even though many of the neighborhoods farther away that use that station are much better. I think the crummy housing stock that keeps the area down. I'm just saying opening a transit station is not some guaranteed housing value miracle.
The total number of deaths by autos this year will exceed the total numbers of those killed by light rail for the next 10,000 years!
So?
Do cars on the highway last that long? Most don't. Most don't make it to ten years.
Mark
Cities that are having the mother of all traffic problems, like here with the Gowanus, LIE, midotwn, etc.
No matter what this "Coalition" thinks, full transit expansion is needed to keep a place moving. Maybe it doesn't think so where it is based (which probably is not in any major city like NYC). To prove this, why is it that even up and coming cities/regions like Charlotte, Houston, Atlanta, and Hartford are studying rail alternatives? Even though they are served by highway networks that are reaching the capacity of longtime centers such as NYC and Chicago.
But thoses car are not paid for with fares or taxes.
John
Mark
The roads they drive on (and wear out) usually are.
Fact: No rail system outside of New York City carries as many people as one freeway lane.
Have they looked at WMATA's metrorail system? Also, what is their definition of "rail"? Is it heavy rail like subways, or light rail, or streetcar service?
2. Myth: Rail transit can greatly reduce congestion
Fact: Outside of New York and a few other cities, rail transit carries too few people to noticeably reduce congestion
Alot of that can be accounted for by the development of employment and commercial areas far removed from any transit. Look no further than the outlying DC area suburbs; lots of employment/residential space, no tranisit.
3. Myth: Rails costs less to operate than buses
Fact: Almost all rail transit systems cost more to operate than buses running on routes in comparable corridors.
This boils down to funding for the project and how much it costs to implement such a system. Obviously a rail system running in the place of a bus in a certain route corridor won't have as much freedom to move around the lanes on the road, (though this limitation is small and at times can be a non-facotr, it still exists), but if someone starts using more rail based systems, the cost of its operation and production will drop.
4. Myth: Rail transit is fast
Fact: Rail transit speeds rarely compete with autos; express buses go as fast or faster than most rail transit. U.S. light rail speeds average just 20 miles per hour and heavy–rail around 30 miles per hour.
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Alof of this depends on the amount of traffic on the road that blocks the travel path of buses and how many passengers the trains must pick up, and bullshit regulations on speed. Red light signal preemption would help greatly to offset the speeds of light rail. Also, take for instance, the city operating speeds of HBLR. 15 MPH within the city is such a bullshit speed. It should be at least 30-40 MPH
5. Myth: Rail lines are built to last forever
Fact: Rail lines must be rebuilt and equipment replaced every twenty to thirty years.
Buses also have to be replaced, as well as roads must be repaved and reconstructed over time. And as far as cost is concerned, remember that the reason rail is so expensive right now is because it isn't being used much.
6. Myth: Rail are always under-Budget
Fact: U.S. Rail transit construction has gone an average 41% over budget while highway projects average 8% over budget.
I don't know much about the financial aspects so I won't tackle this one, but I'm gonna say that once again this boils down to who the government prefers to fund more; highways or transit
7. Myth: People won’t ride a bus so we need rails to get them out of their cars
Fact: Fast frequent bus service will attract as many riders as rail transit.
So would a ETB/trolley system, given that there's no bullshit speed limits, lots of opportunities to transfer between travel lanes so it can weave around traffic jams, things blocking the way, and theres an effective backup plan in case the electric power to the rail system goes out
8. Myth: Rail transit reduces air pollution
Fact: Rail transit has an insignificant effect on pollution. Vermont cancelled an experimental commuter train when it found that diesel locomotives polluted more than cars.
It is insignificant because so many cars are still stuck on the highways, roads, and interstates polluting the air
9. Myth: Rail transit lead to economic development
Fact: Urban rail transit investments rarely create new growth says a federally funded study.
What study is this? Why aren't they citing where it came from? Also, IIRC, POrtland has done quite well in smart growth. Baltimore on the other hand, seems to really be lacking in it, but then again, it is Baltimore, one poor backwards-ass city
10. Rail transit is safer than highways.
Fact: Over the past decade, light rail has killed about 11 people per billion passengers miles, commuter rail and buses 8 and heavy rail 4. Freeways are about 4 to 5 and other roads and streets about 8.
LRT kills people mainly because of badly placed warning signs so that peds or drivers cant see the signs, or because theres alot of morons who dont obery the signals or realize there's a damn train coming
Obviously, you can prove anything if you ignore enough details!! Little fact-lets without substance take on a life of their own when in the wrong hands, and that is what this website is trying to do!
It is interesting how they single out NYC so much - the fact is, there is a relationship between density & the advantages of rail.
Basically, rail tends to fail with the lower densities that are best for cars, and vice-versa. Many of the points they make are "valid" but need to be qualified to be understood, as you have noted.
So sad that such slanted views exist....
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Alof of this depends on the amount of traffic on the road that blocks the travel path of buses and how many passengers the trains must pick up, and bullshit regulations on speed<<<<<<<
The average speed of a car in the city is closer to 15 mph or less. In New York or Boston, a average speed of a car is close to a bicycle.
Mark
First they ignore you,
Then they make fun of you
then they lie about you
then you accomplish your goals
Mark
I mean anyone who has sat in the traffic jams of rush hour in any major (or even not so major) city would have to agree that more highways and cars are not the anwser. We're seeing more and more train lines opening in various parts of the county.............
Myth: Given an absence of market constraints on development and subsidies, that is the development pattern that everyone would choose.
Fact: In the remaining viable cities with viable rail transit networks, housing prices are very high, reflecting a demand for such living environment in excess of the supply.
Myth: The United States is incapable of increasing supply to meet the demand.
I won't divluge any further on this matter. It is a waste of time to contradict his false statements.
I agree. This organization's goal is clearly to fight rail, not to promote home ownership. Like I said earlier, if they were really intersted in promoting home ownership they'd forget fighting rail, pick up hammers, and volunteer with Habitat for Humanity.
Mark
Fact: Fast frequent bus service will attract as many riders as rail transit.
I'm not going to even address some of the other nonsense, but they really got this one screwed up. Bus transit is not as reliable as rail transit because in most circumstances, buses are subject to the same road delays that driving can bring (traffic, etc). By that reasoning, they should just forget the subway, and have everyone use "fast frequent bus service" throughout the city, and see how fast the city becomes crippled. And the same goes for the LIRR. And buses aren't going to be stuck on the LIE at rushour, and make it to manhattan as fast as the LIRR? I think not. If a train schedule says it will get you to a station at 6:00, within reason, you will mostly make it there at 6:00, the same can't be said of surface transit. So yes, rail transit being more reliable will get people out of their cars.
(I'm not going to even address some of the other nonsense, but they really got this one screwed up. Bus transit is not as reliable as rail transit because in most circumstances, buses are subject to the same road delays that driving can bring (traffic, etc).
To be fair, that isn't a matter of rubber vs. steel wheels, but the availability of an exclusive grade-separated right of way that cannot become jammed with cars. Busways work too, are faster cheaper to build, and can be used by buses on a variety of feeder routes on local streets without people having to get off and get on. But the ongoing costs are higher, since buses can only be so long, and they wear out sooner. If the demand isn't great enough, the busway doesn't pay. And if it is high enough, you need the capacity of rail.
Mark
2) This conveniently ignores that the people are mostly carried during peak times, when any reduction would be noticable.
3) From the Chicago CTA budget, the vehicle revenue mile cost for bus is about $8.20/mile. The operating cost per passenger mile is about $0.70/mile for bus. For rail, the cost per vehicle revenue mile is $5.89, and about $0.34 per passenger mile. It also compares to other major city transit companies, and operating cost of heavy rail vs. bus is less in most cases on a per-passenger or per-trip basis. It is very close in many cases.
4) This myth is comparing the wrong numbers. Pitting rail against highways is silly. They serve different purposes. 30 mph average speed is very much better than walking or taking a bus or even driving on most dense city streets. Average vehicle speed on surface streets is what subways and els should be compared to.
5) I don't think this myth even exists. No one in their right mind thinks rails are eternal, just like no one in their right mind things that roads are eternal.
6) Another myth that doesn't even exist. Some are under budget, some are over budget. Just like roads (a certain "Big Dig" comes to mind).
7) There is some truth to both the Myth and the Fact. Rail can attract more people, faster. But reliable busses will also attract a lot of people, especially in areas that already have a good track record with busses. In general, most rail lines will carry more people than a bus line that runs on existing streets.
8) Lumping all "rail" together is silly. Electric rails create nearly zero emissions along their corridors, and the pollution created by their electrical generation can both be located away from people, or minimized by choice of generation method.
9) Rail can spur development. But I agree that its impact is probably overstated for most areas. Even in Portland, the largest developments to take advantage of rail were also spurred by significant tax breaks to the developers. And in Chicago, new development along the Orange Line has been slow. There is some, but it's certainly not an overnight success.
10) This is just a silly comparison. Heavy rail is what should be compared to highways, and the numbers given are the same as highways, meaning that, while it may not be safer, it is as safe. The only outlier is lightrail, and there are many things that can be done to reduce those incidents.
Very good points! Building rail is just part of the job. You have to actively create cities that are transit-firendly in order for rail to be the most useful and effective. This kind of tax incentive is just one kind of urban planning strategy to promote the kind of land use that makes rail work. Rail is wonderful but it has to be part of a larger urban planning vision.
Mark
A lot of the "myths" are things that almost nobody would believe; they are merely asserted for the purpose of being rebutted. But I personally think that most of the "facts" are correct. Of course they have been carefully selected and carefully worded in such a way as to present the case against rail transit, and they should be carefully read with that thought in mind. Statistics do not really lie. You just need to think carefully about precisely what they mean. E Mathias appears to have done this.
I agree with Mark Michalovic that urban sprawl does not lend itself to rail transit. You need high density (masses of people) to justify mass transit, and in most American cities without rail transit that density simply does not exist.
- unsupported "statistics";
- lumping together light and heavy rail indiscriminately in an argument;
- lumping together ultimate capacity with current ridership.
The shame of it is, we really should be looking at the limitations of on-grade light rail: safety and speed. But this sort of thing just forces everyone into polemical noise-making. Damn.
- unsupported "statistics";
- lumping together light and heavy rail indiscriminately in an argument;
- lumping together ultimate capacity with current ridership.
The shame of it is, we really should be looking at the limitations of on-grade light rail: safety and speed. But this sort of thing just forces everyone into polemical noise-making. Damn.
Fact-- when on duty at (his positions) the 'Dead Motor' fault light's illuminate due to heavy load.....
-----------------------Make this number 11-------------
Since the premise of the American Nightmare Coalition is utterly flawed, I see it as a waste of time to continue to expound their lies that they tout as “facts.” One very nice anecdote that speaks volumes against them was the recent blackout. Once the trains were not rolling, look what happened. Now, imagine each individual you saw on their feet sitting in a car…
Oh, and their “fact” about rail not spurring economic growth? Look at the development that is happening in Jersey City, even along the much-maligned NJT SNJLRT River Line.
Also love that 30-mph average speed when it comes to heavy-rail – what do they define as heavy-rail, subway systems? Their average speed is 30 mph, but the average speed of commuter rail is far, far higher.
All of the other statments made by the "American Dream Coalition" is so full of bullshit, it makes me laugh. They should be named the "American Nightmare Coalition".
Mark
Am I the only one who smells a rat at his category of "commuter rail and buses"?
Fact: No rail system outside of New York City carries as many people as one freeway lane. "
No one I've ever known in transit ever made a claim like that. Besides, it is undefined.
2. Myth: Rail transit can greatly reduce congestion
Fact: Outside of New York and a few other cities, rail transit carries too few people to noticeably reduce congestion
The key word is "can" - it is true that not every rail system has succeeded in doing so - so their statement is true. On the other hand, they offer no alternative that is viable.
"3. Myth: Rails costs less to operate than buses
Fact: Almost all rail transit systems cost more to operate than buses running on routes in comparable corridors. "
False - because they fabricate this "comparable corridor" concept which doesn't mean diddly. Rail transit does cost less to operate.
"6. Myth: Rail are always under-Budget "
No one in transit ever claims that.
"8. Myth: Rail transit reduces air pollution
Fact: Rail transit has an insignificant effect on pollution. Vermont cancelled an experimental commuter train when it found that diesel locomotives polluted more than cars."
Obviiously their argument is laughable. And even their example is false.
"5. Myth: Rail lines are built to last forever"
No transit system has ever made a claim like that.
"Fact: Rail transit speeds rarely compete with autos; express buses go as fast or faster than most rail transit. U.S. light rail speeds average just 20 miles per hour and heavy–rail around 30 miles per hour. "
Their numbers for rail are close, but what they are not telling you is that the car they are comparing it to is driving on a freeway that is not over capacity. They neglect to mention that a rush hour freeway is like a parking lot.
N Bwy
Unless you're travelling between Brooklyn and downtown Manhattan on weekends, why would you be against it?
SURE! At your request!
It's from the Dave's Rail Pix website, and shows a train of ex-NYC elevated cars on the Dayton & Troy. The cars appear to be freshly painted, suggesting this was taken soon after the D&T acquired them (it does look like a publicity photo); anyone care to guess at the date?
Frank Hicks
The only place I know of that got ex-New York el cars was the Shipyard Railway (run by Key System) in California.
The cars in the shot, BTW, look like un-electified BU's
Notice the kerosene markers on the last car.
Look at the letter board of car #1900. I see the markings of "The Dayton and Troy........."
Bill "Newkirk"
Frank Hicks
The records (supplied by George Krambles)do not indicate any sold to other operators, so We may be looking at a very early Dayton & Troy shot from the late 19th or very early 20th centuries.
The cars are identical to the 1-180 South Side cars.
Cars of the general design were built as late as 1905 for South Side.
There is one scene on the roof of the telephone building at West and Vesey Streets (it was heavily damaged on 9/11). Wonderful views of that area and the harbor decades before the Trade Center and Battery Park were built.
And best of all, toward the end of the film, a sequence filmed in the Chambers Street BMT subway station. (It is playing the role of Times Square, as noted by a sign hanging in background). The heroine and her sailor boyfriend come down a stairway with a crowd of extras. You can see the original bronze and glass globe lamps hanging above the platform in the background. He buys some gum from a Wrigley's Juicy Fruit vending machine mounted on one of the tiled columns. Then you hear the rumble of a train approaching.
It is BMT Triplex set 6000. The train pulls into the station, car 6000 B stops right in front of the camera. The pneumatic doors open and people crowd into the car, then you hear the clanging of a bell on the platform before they close.
The train pulls away with a low, deep groan. "Sea Beach Express" can be seen on the rollsign as it passes by. Then the camera trucks forward and turns so we can see the train disappear into the tunnel, sounding its whistle.
The route sign on the back of the train says "4 - Times Square."
I believe this was shot on the northbound center track at Chambers St., and the train appears to switch onto the now-defunct Manhattan Bridge tracks. If anyone who sees the film can confirm this, please post here.
This is an amazing document. Although obviously staged for the film, it shows the real-life locale and rolling stock as it looked and sounded in 1929.
Tower Video at 66/Bway has a rental copy and copies for sale. A must-see for railfanners.
But the Brighton Line has variety. Where else, save for the Dyre Ave line (but that's an imitation of a former RR line, not totally original), can you enjoy tunnels, open cut areas, enbankement section, elevated and a joyous view of all of the Cyclone, Astroland, and the rest of Coney Island (coming back in May, or course)?
'nuff said.
The subway scene at Chambers St. is just as advertised. You can hear the "tch-sssss" magnet valve sound as the Triplex comes to a stop. The 6000B marking is clearly visible, as is the "Sea Beach Exp." side sign. Even the conductor is visible in the rear of the train as it pulls away, "4-Times Square" clearly visible and gears groaning. You can even hear the train's whistle blowing as it switches tracks. One oddity - none of the side destination signs are illuminated, nor is the "Via Bridge" side sign.
It appears that the train is on the Willy B-bound "express" track and the movie extras are on the east platform currently in use. I must say Chambers St. looked mighty nice back then! The bell is quite loud - almost as loud as a burglar alarm.
There is also a brief shot looking down at two el trains passing each other on a curve as April and Tony go sightseeing in lower Manhattan. Liberty Island, Ellis Island and the former Aquarium (now Castle Clinton) can also be seen.
There's even a brief scene at Penn Station, looking up at the Concourse from track level.
Fearing for both her waning career and for the reputation of her young daughter April, good-hearted Kitty Darling (Helen Morgan), aging dime store doyenne of New York's gritty burlesque netherworld, sends April away to a convent school free of the hard knocks that showbiz life guarantees. When, years later, Kitty is reunited with the grown April (Joan Peers), motherhood and career clash in the fading limelight. Loyal to a mother she's never known and both repulsed and fascinated by a beckoning world of sleaze and sawdust, April fends off Kitty's predatory lover while slyly fanning the fires of first love.
"I insisted on a fluid camera," Mamoulian recalled years after his landmark film debut. His all-seeing camera eye prowls through and beyond a shadowy backstage underworld to capture the tempos and textures of New York City itself. In lyrical scenes shot on location atop skyscrapers, within the old Penn Station, and upon the Brooklyn Bridge, Applause offers, as one period review enthused, "pictures of New York as the city has never been photographed before."
Critical Acclaim
"In a few minutes of screen time, the director, Rouben <
Mamoulian, has created an unforgettable portrait of show business squalor-still the best I've ever seen.--Richard Schickel, The New York Times.
As usual, news links may disappear quickly.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I was trying to explain to her that the MTA Code of Conducts did not prohibit taking pictures...but she start giving me an attitude like "I'M GOING TO CALL THE POLICE"...bah, so I just say to myself "#$*% it" :-(
So what do you think? Should I just stop taking pictures or should I just go to stations "less sensitive"?
Cheers
Denny
As a supervisor, she was clearly not allowed that racial remark. She DOES have the right to ask you to move on, and she can call police to question you on taking pictures (NYC is still on Code Orange Alert). You might think photography is legal, IT IS. However any NYCT is obligated to protect the environment they work in and must report any "suspicious" activity, no matter how moot it may be.
You should report the matter regarding the off-color remark she said to you directly via. email on the MTA website. Remember the description of the employee, where she came from (BB Tower), did she wore the ID badge? (The reverse side of the Metrocard they use), and the time and date.
As for the photos, you do so at your own risk. Make sure you have sufficient ID, especially a job related ID so you are a law-abiding citizen that is taking pictures as a hobby. And you still must conform to all the other rules, (no tripods, no blocking free movement, no trespassing in tunnels and areas that are off limits, etc.). And if a NYCT employee asks you (nicely) to move on, please let him/her know you are doing this as a hobby. After you tell them the legality of photography, if they still insist then move on.
She did not wore a badge (as far as I seen) and was in plain clothes (which I assume operators are allowed) but yes I'll think about reporting the remark
Anyway thanks
The men were deported for being on the 7 line not on the 7 train. The issue is what she said which would be out of context, not the fact she was doing her job to ask you to please stop taking pictures.
She could do her job without injecting the 7 train statement. She can even call police, it's her right. The 7 line is a sensetive line to bring up (remember John Rocker and his ignorant remarks?) so this one falls into a gray area.
In any case, I'd like to leave that in the past. The 7 line is great for what it is: a good mix of culture, though despite mainstream media says, it is not the only line.
Dat all you hadda say, B.
It's your opinion, everyone here voices their concerns and I was in no way taking offense to clarifying what I stated. Except for maybe for a touchdown (he he OFFENSE) :-)
Rules from the MTA website
And taken DIRECTLY from the text:
Photography, filming or video recording in any facility or conveyance is permitted except that ancillary equipment such as lights, reflectors or tripods may not be used. Members of the press holding valid identification issued by the New York City Police Department are hereby authorized to use necessary ancillary equipment. All photographic activity must be conducted in accordance with the provision of these Rules.
So the law specifically states that photography is legal for person non-commercial use, no tripods, no flash, no obstructions, nothing.
"Wrong! On a scale of 1 to 14, 1 being lowest degree of unlikelihood, 14 being absolute metaphysical certitude, what are the chances of Major continuing Thatcher's alliance with Bush, vis-a-vis the Iraqis? Eleanor Clift!" -- Dana Carvey on SNL, December 1, 1990
Newkirk David clearly points out the comment she made and it was inappropriate to insert it.
Would you mind explaining what "SI Greenblack", means?
What size adult diaper does she wear?
Not that this has anything to do with this particular woman because I don't know her, but "church-going" and "racist" have nothing to do with each other. I've met many white church-going people who are racist, and I've met many black church-going people who are racist. "Church-going" and "racist" are not mutually-exclusive.
Woo-hoo! That means I can't be racist!
:)
"Just because someone is Church/Synogogue/Mosque-going, doesn't mean they aren't racist". They can be just as likely (or unlikely) as an atheist.
Did anyone say you were? :)
Photography is legal. Suspicious Activity is different. They may overlap, but photography remains legal. It is proper for an officer to ask for identification, and to make a note of such a problem, but the officer can also clear you and tell you to enjoy taking pictures.
Elias
My friend once got a warning from cops after they found him looking down the staircase and taking pics into the lower level of City Hall (N/R). He would've been ticketed for sure but he managed to convince them that it was for some "school project" and that he deleted the photos from his camera.
But if a TA employee harasses you for taking pictures at some station nowhere near a "target" (21 St - Van Alst maybe), then that's going over the line, to me.
Two, terrorists do not need to take pictures to cause mass havoc on the subway. All one needs is careful observations of crowd dynamics. Going after photographers only provides a false sense of security while needlessly intimidation those with knowledge of subway operations and possible threats to those operations.
Terrorists, foreign or domestic, don't run around with visable camers snapping pictures of subway trains. They make use of the information freely available in libraries and other sources. (The library angle and terrorists (and what the government wants to do) give librarians fits.
Restrictions on our basic freedoms are a slippery slope.
I feel that John Ascroft is possibly the most dangerous man in our current government. If he had his way, the Constitution would just be a piece of paper in a musuem.
"Those who would trade liberty for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty or safety". Benjamin Franklin.
Da Hui
Proper power??? In direct contradiction of the written law? And are you describing the average MTA employee when you say "trained?" Did you actually READ the MTA employees' posts???
Exactly.
The memo was probably sent to every EMPLOYEE of the MTA, if they get paid or freaking work down to the Janitors. REPORT not confront.
I think what Alex is saying is this is one of the things we don't know we don't know, not one of the things we know we don't know.
Do we know there's another memo, or do we just think there is? I think you don't know we don't know we don't know.
Supervisors are workers and or employees as well. They may have different responsibilities within the orginization, but not vis a vis the riding public. OK, suppose they do have different instructions. So what? Their instructions do not cover a diminisment of my civil rights, nor do the abridge the right to take photographs. I would doubt very much if they gave them posers to do more than *report*, albeit to report with a higher degree of accuracy and observation.
Hey, if the photog is a terriorist, they are just as dead if the mutt tries to do something to them.
As a supervisor they ought to me *MORE* aware of the safty of themselves and of their people than other 'workers'.
As a *supervisor* on my Ambulance Crew, I am *required* to assure that the place where my crews will be working is safe, and if not to wait for law enforcement (or other agency) to make it so, before rushing in to 'save' somebody.
Elias
You're right - no one's instructions cover a diminishment of your civil rights. That would be against the law. However, no where do I find a civil right to take photographs (unless you're a member of the press). Here's the official take on Civil Rights, according to NYS:
http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?co=3 - Civil rights as listed in the NYS Constitution.
http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?cl=17 - Civil Rights Index from the NYS Consolidated Laws
My supervisors are also required to make sure that the place where I and my fellow crews are working will be safe. Since Management has decided that there might be something unsafe about photographers, I see nothing wrong in the Supervisors confronting them.
*rolls eyes*
Ok, you can all bitch at me as much as you like now, but that's my policy and until the government does something to reduce my level of disillusionment tough fucking cheese. I still have the power of choice and I choose not to assist an unjust regime.
Think of all the security measures you please, then think about how they would stop a terrorist with a backpack bomb from detonating in the middle of a crowded 7 train under the East River at rush hour. You don't need a camera or pictures for that one. Ok, want to search everyone using the subway? Fine, what would stop a terrorist with a backpack bomb from detonating in the middle of the crowd of people waiting to be searched at a busy station??
People who have a shitty life, no hope, no education and see you as the reason they have a shitty life and no hope are highly dangerous. They're mad as hell and they aren't going to take it any more. Investing money to shoot them is not solving the problem.
Like you said, it's next to impossible to stop someone from causing harm if they really want. I just object to your extreme stance of making it a practice to NOT notify anyone if you see suspcious activity. It's a bit naive and and doesn't make much sense to me.
Following your example, are you saying that if you were on a platform, and you saw a guy with red and black wires hanging out of his backback, looking nervous and acting suspicously you wouldn't report it? There must be some threshold of "suspicious activity" that would cause you to take some action, right?
This posting and your last one contradict each other. Before you said that you will not report any activity because "Big brother" is watching and must have everything under control. But then here you wrote that it's impossible to stop everything. That's why the average citizen (and MTA workers and anyone else) have a role to play in this unfortunate game. Yes, maybe that guy with the wires hanging out of his bag is totally innocent. Unfortunately certain liberties will need to be suspended in order to confirm a person's innocence in some situations.
Regarding your example, there are a million legitimate things that such a person could be doing and I am not about to ruin somebody's day based on idle speculation. I might take a picture of said person or ride in a different car, but unless I see a bomb or a gun or an act of sabotage I am not about to cry wolf. If transit agencies can use their CCTV cameras to bitch at me for taking photos, they can use them to send cops after sketchy arab guy.
So, assuming this solution could take generations to execute: The question remains - In the short term, what steps do you recomend that our government take in order to make us safer at home?
And finally, there are many people in this world with shitty lives and no hope who don't blow other people up.
I have given this some thought: Peace will not happen in the Middle East until there is peace in the Middle East. Think about it. No one trust the other guy over there. Where is the trust and peace going to come from.
I have made many fantacy train routes, so here is my fantacy peace plan:
1) Support Israli Security. (Those people gotta feel safe too, you know)
2) Protect Arabs from Isralis (and others such as US whom they do not trust.) A Japanese, Chinese, or Indian peace keeping force (with no vested religious interests in the the area) might sufice to protect Arabs from Isralis.
3) Bring Jobs and Prosperity to the Arab areas. Perhaps Microsoft can get Arabs to write code, or Intel get them to make chips or stuff. Everybody has to have an oportunity to have a proper job with proper self-respect. Then and only then will the impulse to war die away.
Next, it is my opinion that it is not our wealth, nor our support for Israel that bothers them so much as our way of life, as evidenced blatently if not wrongly as being a lewd, immodest, debauched, and extravagant people.
We all know better than that, but they do not based on our own TV and other published materials. And for this I have no answer, but we are at once the most permissive and the most prudish of societies, both the most liberal and the most conservative of peoples, and they cannot figure us out, but they do know that they do not want our corruption to reach their people. And *that* is not a new complaint on their parts. I remember hearing the samethings from *them* during the Vietnam war.
Elias
We might start with properly funded, trained and consistent security training for MTA employees. Not just sticking them between a rock and a hard place.
They are NOT between a rock and a hard place.
They were told to *report* suspicious activities.
"Control, Pehlam 123... suspicous white man, dark hair, red jscket, taking pictures of infrastructure and trains on the southbound 96th street platform."
No need for confrontations, or for excitement...
just do what you are asked to do, and be pleasant to people.
Do not confront them, it is not safe to do so.
That is the job of the officer.
The officer can check ID, maybe run an NINC check, and satisfy everybody that he's "just another railfan doing his thing."
Even Ashcroft can't piss his pants over that one.
Elias
The code of conduct of the NYCT permits photography without the use of ancillary equipment in public access areas. (period)
NYCT employees are under written instruction to report any instance of photo taking in public or non-public access areas. (period)
The two are not in conflict. If an employee sees a person taking photos on transit property, he/she reports it to Control Center. (period) He/she makes no evaluation of the legality or illegality of the incident. The incident is merely reported. The police will or willnot investigate as they deem necessary. (period) They (the police) will evaluate the person, the location and the circumstances and either permit the activity to continue or not. This has nothing to do with TA employees. It's strictly a police matter (period). Any employee who goes beyond this might be over-stepping in the absence of written instructions to the contrary.
So...... there are NO written instructions to the contrary?
NYCT employees are under written instruction to report any instance of photo taking in public or non-public access areas. (period)
The two are not in conflict. If an employee sees a person taking photos on transit property, he/she reports it to Control Center. (period) He/she makes no evaluation of the legality or illegality of the incident. The incident is merely reported. The police will or willnot investigate as they deem necessary. (period) They (the police) will evaluate the person, the location and the circumstances and either permit the activity to continue or not. This has nothing to do with TA employees. It's strictly a police matter (period). Any employee who goes beyond this might be over-stepping in the absence of written instructions to the contrary.
Wow, you said it perfectly. Add that to a FAQ! What you said is exactly true, IMO. All of it. Good work. I'm saving your post. Please tell me if you mind me quoting parts or all of what you wrote in the future when this topic comes up again on SubTalk.
Any employee who goes beyond this might be over-stepping in the absence of written instructions to the contrary.
Not at all. I love being quoted!!!
Thank you for the clarification that was addressed to cooler heads. Sad to say that some jerks on this board think some obnoxious ways of dealing with the supervisor, and it's ironic that one of them says it's OK to to use a hex Key to illegally change rollsigns and get NYCT workers in trouble but then turn around and rant about using a police nightstick in a very unruly and sick manner to a female employee doing her job.
No, she would be within her right to contact Control Center.
NYCT employees are under written instruction to report any instance of photo taking in public or non-public access areas. (period)
The two are not in conflict. If an employee sees a person taking photos on transit property, he/she reports it to Control Center. (period) He/she makes no evaluation of the legality or illegality of the incident. The incident is merely reported. The police will or willnot investigate as they deem necessary. (period) They (the police) will evaluate the person, the location and the circumstances and either permit the activity to continue or not.
If photo taking (subject to noted limitations) is legal, what do the police have to evaluate?
The police may or may not make observations of what you are doing, then they may or may not come and ask for your ID. An officer has a right to ask you your name at any time, and good ID card will help you here. He may ask what you are doing. If he is satisfied that you are a bonified card carring rail-nut, he may let you go, If he is not satisfied, and finds you to be suspicious, and your identification and or explanations insusficient, he may take additional steps.
Elias
And you still end up the loser. The cop now knows your name, home address, maybe other information such as date of birth. Do you gedt to know similar things about him? Ha ha!
Yes, In fact, I get to know his badge number.
Elias
I don't understand how this makes anyone a loser. Do you object to EZPass because some computer now can track your driving habits. Speaking of driving, when you go tot he DMV you give all that information to a clerk for the privilige of driving. Don't you object to that? And what about your Blockbuster Card or your Shopright Card or even your library card. Now anyone who wants to pay for the information knows your Video preferences, what type of deoderant you use or what books you read. While we're at it, what about your ISP. maybe they are selling info about what wesites you visit on a regular basis. If you want annomnimity you'd best head for some cave in South Dakota - one that doesn't have video surveilance.
None of those are quite the same. EZPass is strictly voluntary. The DMV, well, just about everyone has to deal with it, at least we're all treated equally. Shopping and video cards do allow for the sale of customer information, but on an aggregate basis without people being individually identifiable. But then consider when a police officer questions someone legally taking pictures in the subway due to nonexistent "terrorist" fears. The cops knows all sorts of sensitive personal information about the photographer, who for his part is allowed to know nothing whatsoever about the cop except badge number and (possibly) surname.
Until he got an RFM, my father's only photo ID was his passport, and I assure you he didn't routinely carry it on the subway.
However, *having* a good ID card helps to establish your bonifides, your credibility, and your willingness to cooperate.
Not having in can invite further investigation, and possible detention until a satisfactory identification can be made, probably at the station house. It invites a deeper investigation rather than heading off further inqury.
Elias
Of course, we also have Christopher Riviera's and John's (Bombardier's) ticket fiascos which were promptly dealt with.
Same with Koi; he got a ticket, which later got thrown out by the judge. Then as he was videoing the 7 line after his court appearance, a T/O gave him crap for illegally photographing the subway. Koi told him that he had a court order allowing him to do what he was doing, and the T/O studied it at length during station stops.
Good thing I wasn't carrying the 600+ page "Chronology of New York" just recently printed (lots of info on NYC history from the 1500s to 2002). Yikes- an almanac!! (A good one, too :)
In all seriousness, expect to be questioned in this day and age. It's unfortunate, but that's just the way it's going to be.
--Mark
Secondly, when I try to tell her about the rules (which I just printed this morning), she keeps on saying that "NO NO NO"...now I wasn't really in the mood of arguing with her
Why in the world would the MTA employee suggest that??? If they saw you taking photos, then they should comply with the memo and immediately report you/the incident to the proper authorities. They should not be giving you warnings and letting you get away scot free.
Actually, I think the MTA employee only has to report the incident if he finds it suspicious. So if he find it suspicious he should report it, and if he doesn't find it suspicious then he shouldn't report it. But no where in those two options does it say to confront the photographer.
I'd rather not have to waste my time with a policeman, but if it led to the police getting fed up with all the calls they get about people taking photos that they tell the MTA to rescind at least part of that memo, then it would be time well spent.
--Mark
Eventually, the "photo-in-the-subway" call will get bumped down to the lowest priority - the "we'll look into it" response.
It's like when you look out your front door and see that some yo-yo has parked in front of your driveway. With your car sitting in it.
Call the cops, maybe the cop car will show up after an hour or so, usually by that time the yo-yo (and the car) will be gone.
The "photo-in-the-subway" is just another way to increase the level of paranoia that 9/11 sparked.
Sorry, but terrorists don't look at infastrucure like subway cars and swithes. They might look at crowd dynamics as the terror that comes when a suicide bomber takes out Times Square at 5 o'clock in the afternoon is "the big payoff".
What the h3ll do you think I've been doing for the last three years??? Do you not see close to SIX THOUSAND PHOTOS on my website? And I only upload the decent ones. I've really taken about FOURTEEN THOUSAND PHOTOS in the last three years, including about TWELVE THOUSAND PHOTOS in the last calendar year, 2003.
Guess I'll bump into you one day
A) What an MTA employee can do as per the memo (IIRC):
1. Report you to a superior
2. Ask you what you are doing (I'm not sure which level of MTA employees would be authorized to do this)
3. Call the cops
B) What the memo does not tell MTA employees to do (IIRC):
1. Tell you that taking photos is illegal
2. Tell you to stop taking photos
If an MTA employee does something in A), then fine.
If an MTA employee does something in B), then they are wrong and are out of line. You can choose to cooperate with them or not. If you cooperate with them, you are potentially giving up your right to photography at that time and location. If you don't cooperate, you run the risk of having them doing something in A), but they may also just give up harassing you.
If the cop then does something in B), you should obey him since there is probably some general law about obeying the direct orders of a policeman. You could then file a complaint about the incident in the appropriate way (if a complaint is warranted).
This site has shown MTA documentation that photography is permitted on MTA property, even after 9/11.
Probabaly the best way is just to stay away from tower and booths. But you never know, some riders are like maniac or hyper-paranoid
Why? What rule would you be breaking?
I really think it would be easy enough to launch a crippling attack against the subway without the use of photographs of the subway infrastructure.
I don't really think terrorist planners would be stupid enough to draw such attention to themselves by using cameras. This is just a low hanging fruit that gives some sort of false security that things are being watched. TA employees should be trained to look out for subtle behaviors that might be deemed as suspicious...not to be on red alert for something obvious like a guy with a camera or camcorder.
Da Hui
Da Hui
One would have to take off from work to appear in court. Is it really worth it to prove a point to have that same TA employee call the cops on you next time and have to do it all over again?
Also taken from the MTA website. The area in bold indicates where EVERYONE must follow:
Section 1050.6 (d)
"All persons on or in any facility or conveyance of the Authority shall:
Comply with all lawful orders and directives of any transit police officer or Authority employee acting within the scope of his or her employment;
Obey any instructions on notices or signs duly posted on any Authority facility or conveyance; and
Provide accurate, complete and true information or documents requested by transit officers or other Authority personnel acting within the scope of their employment and otherwise in accordance with law."
So if an on-duty authority employee asked you to refrain from picture taking, you have to comply even if you were in the right.
That's debatable, depending on whether telling you not to take photos is a "lawful order" or "directive" and also "within the scope" of the employee's job.
Infringing upon my right in contravention of said rules is NOT a lawful order.
Elias
Regardless of the date printed on the page header, and despite the fact that the rules were only put up on the MTA website a few months ago, the usual answer is, "that changed after 9/11."
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
Thank You,
I want to please all of my purchasers.
John
Oren,
Thank you for the complement.
John
This man even traveled 2 1/2 hours to share some of his collection (and sell a few maps) with me. Oh sure, he just so happened to be traveling this way because of his job, we just took advantage of the opportunity of both of us being in the right place at the right time.
John, you are truly KING when it comes to your collection and your knowledge of METRO---My only wish would be, when you die, put me in your will to receive your collection (Just kidding--you can't pass the kind of knowledge you have on.)----At least, as time goes on, I've often considered placing my collection (framed wall maps included) specifically in my will to make sure they go to someone who can truly appreciate them (Be nice to me Oren--with you being 20 years younger, you'd be a likely candidate)--
Oh well, enough for now--for those of you thinking of purchasing a wall map from John, they are the real deal---plus, if you get to talking to him, you may learn a thing or two about the system also.
Mark
John
Mark
p.s.---when ya comin back up this way?
Hard to Say. Very really do I get any further west then Beltsville. I will be going to Baltimore on Saturday to shoot pictures of the Baltimore Metro and take notes to create a track schematic. This ties in with last pargraph in this post http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=641946
If I have any time left I might ride the segment of the Lite Rail that I have not been on. That being everything south of Camden Yards and in to Penn Station.
John
Bring them on. I got a whole pile of them just waiting to put in the hands of anybody that wants one or more of them.
I will not wait for your check to clear before shipping. However I do prefer money orders.
The correct URL is www.chesapeake.net/~cambronj/wmata
John
John
"Genuine WMATA subway car maps".
John
Mark
Mark
I actually am not sure how they could have used the forms that they did. The concrete's texture is exactly the same as if rough timber was used, so that implies that the forms had to have been, for lack of a better word, a "negative" of the wood pattern. How a form like that could have been made is beyond me. The only explaination I can think of is that they took rough-textured timber and poured some sort of liquid mold on it and then that mold was used as the forms. Sort of like how footprints in the ground are reproduced by filling them with plaster and later on using the plaster mold to make a copy in some other medium. What kind of pourable material that is hard enough to make it worthy of concrete forms is what stumps me.
You forgot the new monorail line Kuala Lumpur, the KL Monorail, who's website includes a good map of the entire Kuala Lumpur transit system. It's an indigenously built monorail of classic Alweg design created in the image of the original trains from Germany and Seattle. Since it doesn't have to abide by the Japanese Monorail Commission's requirement that all monorails be level floored, they can have intrusions into the cabin for wheels and such, just like the original Alwegs did. This lends the vehicles a much more low-slung appearance, which is, IMHO, more attractive than the improbably balanced monorail vehicles like the TAMA monorail in Japan runs.
If he says anything interesting when I listen to the webcast tomorrow afternoon or evening, I will post it here.
But here's a little teaser
http://www.geocities.com/techno79/Pict0010.avi
It says avi, but ti's supposed to be quicktime format. I'm havne't figured out exactly what the deal is. But let me know if there's any problems.
I think some programs can figure out the codec what it is.
Sorry I don't have pictures/car numbers.
R38s still have plates in the "old style." A small number have plates in the "new style" with the Helvetica font but that's only the case because the original plate may have gotten damaged over time.
From Subway Web News 2004: Manny B Changes
What a crock. Don't give me this bs about Atlantic Avenue. It is a long and unnecessary walk being foisted upon people because they don't have a clue how to serve people properly.
I trust the politicians in Brighton and Flatbush will realize what they are doing to their constituents and do something to stop this madness.
I wish somebody could explain to me what possible reason the MTA has for this imbecilic idea. It is a matter of simple fairness nothing more. 4th Avenue riders on weekends have easy convenient ways of taking either the 6th Avenue or Broadway service. They are taking it away from Brighton riders when the Brighton is the bread and butter BMT line.
Could somebody have a possible explanation why they are such a bunch of imbeciles.
It's been official for months. Now is the time not to try to get it changed for February but to try to get it changed for May. (Incidentally, I don't know where on the Brighton line you're coming from, but if it's toward the bottom, transferring at Stillwell will become an option in May.)
It's certainly not a matter of fairness. The 4th Avenue trunk is where three branches happen to come together. Those three branches might as well go in three different directions. They're not taking anything away from anybody; currently, nobody but the Culverites have easy access to 6th.
Don't count what's going on now; this is simply something that is an emergency repair. Before all this started, Brighton line riders had convenient connections to either Broadway or 6th Avenue 24/7. Now Brighton riders do not have a convenient connecgtion to 6th Avenue service during times in the evening and during weekend. No amount of rhetoric can change that fact. And no amount of rhetoric can try to say that a long walk through dark corridors at Atlantic Avenue is not a big inconvenience to Brighton riders.
Your reference to switching the 2/3 is nonsensical. It is nowhere near the same thing. The D can easily be scheduled to stop at DeKalb. It can be done on a moment's notice.
Again, what I don't understand is why the hell the jerks at MTA would have not realized what an inconvenience this is for Brighton riders many of whom do want 6th Avenue service. It is not as if the survey they supposedly took showed 95% of the riders want Broadway, it was probably something like 53%=47%.
I really do understand the decision to have 1 full time 6th Avenue service (West End) and one full time Broadway service (Brighton); indeed it makes sense. They also do provide sixth Avenue service on the Brighton (the B) 16/5 jor thereabouts. So they concede there is demand on the Brighton line for Sixth Avenue service.
So to me it is no big deal to have the D stop at DeKalb. It is as if some bureacratic idiot looked at the map, having no idea of the terrible connection at Atlantic and decided there is a transfer at Atlantic so Brighton riders do not need a convenient transfer at DeKalb. And it is very much germane to the discussion to point out 4th Avenue riders have easy connections to either Broadway or 6th Avenue 24/7 so why shouldn't Brighton riders?
This part of the plan just doesn't make sense or have any fairness to Brighton riders no matter what those imbeciles try to say.
It's not a matter of "fairness." 4th Avenue only has 6th Avenue and Broadway service because it's served by three lines.
And there isn't just a crossover between the bypass tracks and the Brighton tracks. D trains running local would have to merge with the R.
Not wanting to use the passage at Atlantic is just lazy. People on the IRT in Brooklyn have to use it for 6th Avenue access, and they don't complain. If you think you can make a trip from one place to another without walking, you can: use a cab.
I still stand by my opinion of the folks who made these decisions without considering the consequences.
Until 2001, Brighton had only 6th Avenue service.
But nobody has come up with a good reason why the D is scheduled to skip DeKalb at some times when the B is not running
I have, others have. You continue to ignore those things. As I've said. There is NO CROSSOVER from bypass to Brighton south of DeKalb. The D would have to interfere with the R.
Well wasn't the bridge tracks to Broadway closed then?
And there were cross the platform transfers at DeKalb to the tunnel service to Broadway as I remember.
Finally, for years and years, the by pass was not used all the time. Trains from 4th Avenue routinely stopped at DeKalb. Service is reduced on weekends. Why would there be interference on the switch over now when there wasn't in the past.
It still, I am sorry, makes no sense.
Who gives a damn? They seem to feel it's OK for the <5> to interfere with the (2) and (3) during the PEAK OF RUSH HOUR to the point of crippling West Side exp service levels, but it's not OK for the D and R to share tracks on a WEEKEND? That is just BS.
You may have given reasons, but nobody has yet to bring forth a GOOD reason, or a LOGICAL reason why the D is not stopping at DeKalb on weekends.
I truly believe there is a public be damned attitude in this particular case. Nobody has come up with a logical reason why the D isn't stopping at DeKalb when the B is not running. It would not inconvenience D riders. I do remember years and years ago, probably before a lot of people on this board were born, that the Sea Beach line did indeed skip DeKalb at just about all times but the West Emd and Brighton always stopped at DeKalb allowing easy transfers between Brighton and 4th Avenue lines.
In 1967, for better or for worse, rightly or wrongly, the Broadway and 6th Avenue services were sort of merged. At that time, 4th Avenue had access to both Broadway and 6th Avenue as did Brighton. Yes on weekends Brighton was the D train, 6th Avenue but riders desiring Broadway could change at DeKalb. And this pattern continued until the repair of the Manhattan Bridge necessitated changes.
So changes were made. Fine. Much as many would have preferred Sixth Avenue for the Brighton line, they do have Sixth Avenue service during the week. I am sure it was assumed by everybody that the Brighton riders would have access to Sixth Avenue via an easy change at DeKalb when the B was not running. Nobody thought something as outrageous at this was being planned or there would have been a lot more screaming.
I would still love somebody from the MTA to give one good reason (not that the D has to switch onto the R tracks as this was the norm for many many years) why this is being done. Call me a whiner, fine. That's your right. But all I and other Brighton riders are asking why are we getting shafted on this one issue?
What about when I go to get some culture and go to Lincoln Center and get on the train at Columbus Circle. I don't want to hear about 34th Street, Times Square or Pacific Street. I want to be able to make a simple transfer to my train at DeKalb. I don't see and understand why it is so hard to understand. This is not asking for a complete re-writing of history or changing historical service patterns. Since 1967 Brighton has been both Broadway and 6th Avenue. Now they are taking away 6th Avenue at night and weekends which is irksome to some. Stopping the D at DeKalb will not affect D riders negatively one bit. Stopping D trains at DeKalb will help many many riders.
It is and should be a no brainer.
The Brighton line only had Broadway service for 1 hour to Manhattan and 1 hour from Manhattan as the QB, it never really had direct Broadway line service. From 1967 to 1986, the Brighton line was mostly 6th Ave and Nassau St line on weekdays and 6th Ave only on weekends. No one really bothered about how to access Nassau St (via the current M and former QJ) on weekends, nor when the M was shifted as a so-called "temporary" move to the West End line on 5/1/86 was there was an outcry. They STILL have a direct transfer at Dekalb.
Times do change, service patterns do change. But make the service patterns work for everyone using proper service levels (2 services weekdays, 1 service on weekends on the Brighton line), while minimizing inconvenience.
Make Dekalb Ave work for everyone, Sea Beach, West End, 4th Ave, Brighton. PERIOD!
Get on the 1 at 66 St/Lincoln Center, go to Times Sq, change for the Q to Brighton. In your example, you've either walked from Lincoln Center to Columbus Circle before catchinga train, or you're planning on changing trains twice -once at CC and once at Dekalb.
As I remember, during the 70's while it is probably true Brighton was Sixth Avenue only, there was always a transfer available to Broadway at DeKalb. Don't think the Sea Beach and West End were bypassing.
Of course, if I was really an old timer I could tell you how the Brighton originally went up what is now the Franklin shuttle to hook up with the Fulton Street el to Park Row. And that the Malbone Street wreck was as much caused by the construction of the S curve just outside Prospect Park in the six or seven months before the extension of the Brighton up Flatbush Avenue was completed. The S curve was put into effect to allow Brighton trains to access the local track at Prospect Park just before through service was instituted to DeKalb and the Manhattan Bridge. No I never rode that.
The issue again is the point is conceded that the decision to make Brighton a Broadway service was a choice that was made and has to be lived with. And that is fine; you can't have everything your way. But is there anybody out there, anybody, who thinks it is the right thing not to give Brighton riders access to 6th Avenue at DeKalb when the B is not running. In all these postings, nobody has come out and agreed with the decision or has come out and given one logical reason why this is so necessary. I still believe that there was no thinking involved by the MTA in this. And they sort of hid it at the hearings last summer. Their attitude seems to be change at Atlantic no matter how inconvenient it is. It certainly is not a money issue...stopping the D at DeKalb can't cost MTA a red penny, can it?
Brooklyn politicians do not use the subway. As far as they know, everyone who lives in Brooklyn works in Brooklyn and drives, just like they and all their political supporters do. They are completely ignorant of where Brooklyn's money comes from (aside from the public and non-profit employees supported by their largess) and how it gets here. That is, it comes from Manhattan and arrives by subway.
Subway service on the Manhattan Bridge was disrupted for 22 years, so you'd think there would have been an outcry. In fact, there was more of an outcry about a one weekend G.O. on the L train and the temporary closing of one station in Chinatown. Nothing from the Brooklyn pols on this. No concern about the long term feasibility of service over the bridge as a key issue for Brooklyn.
In any event, I still say you are better off with Broadway service on the weekend, given its destinations. And with express service on both Sixth Avenue and Broadway on weekdays, the Brighton never had it so good. In the original BMT service pattern the full time service on the Brighton was a local, was it not? My guess is that they are bypassing DeKalb to avoid the quadruple merge -- merge with the N, demerge with the N and merge with the R, demerge with the R and merge with the Q, demerge with the Q. Once Atlantic Avenue is finished, perhaps the change there will be better than it was.
Case in point: I'm working with your old employer, Brooklyn office, on a major project in Greenpoint and Williamsburg. Thus far, their biggest transportation concern has been getting the G train back to Forest Hills.
But does the 3 also go to Nevnins and Franklin too? LOL
"And no amount of rhetoric can try to say that a long walk through dark corridors at Atlantic Avenue is not a big inconvenience to Brighton riders. "
Your description of Atlantic Av has no basis in the current post-construction reality. The new corridor is 45 feet wide. As to the length, it's no worse than what you find at 53rd-Lex or Grand Central. A moving sidewalk would be nice, of course, but I suspect that not too many people are whining about it the way you are.
Instead of calling people imbeciles, why not write to MTA and propose an alternate plan. Have a lot of people sign your letter, and send it to elected officials.
Yes, I didn't think of that angle.
The MTA should not jump though hoops to make transfers insanely easy for everyone and make people more obese than they already are.
I wonder what you think about the Grand Concourse having Saturday LIMITED stop bus service, above the D train. I guess many people find the bus "easier" to take.
If anything the MTA(and it's predecessor) has promoted exercise by cutting off the (5) to South Ferry, the <5> to E 241 St(causing people to walk off the 5 and on a 2 at 238), tearing down the 3rd Avenue Elevated in Manhattan forcing people to WALK and SQUEEZE on the 4/5/6. Tearing down the (8) 3rd Avenue Elevated in the Bronx forcing people to walk to the (2), (4) and (D).
There were valid reasons for all of that. I still think there isn't a reason for making the D skip DeKalb other than eliminating a crossover which on a Saturday or Sunday, isn't that big a deal.
However the MTA in other cases adds stops to LIMITED buses, so some people don't have to walk a few blocks to get a 'quicker' bus.
I agree.
There can be no defense for allowing the D to skip Dekalb on weekends outside a lazy, shortsighted desire to eliminate a switching move which inconveniences no one and delays no trains.
The emergency repair has been going on since 1986, and a 1986 service plan is irrelevant to 2004 riders.
Before all this started, Brighton line riders had convenient connections to either Broadway or 6th Avenue 24/7. Now Brighton riders do not have a convenient connecgtion to 6th Avenue service during times in the evening and during weekend. No amount of rhetoric can change that fact. And no amount of rhetoric can try to say that a long walk through dark corridors at Atlantic Avenue is not a big inconvenience to Brighton riders.
Of course it's an inconvenience. In case you've forgotten, I agree that the D should stop at DeKalb when the B isn't running. I think most SubTalkers agree with you on that point.
But your hyperbole and namecalling don't help your cause. The transfer at Atlantic is a much shorter walk than many transfers that many other subway passengers have to take every day (recall that Brighton passengers only have to deal with it on weekends and for a brief period in the evening), and the corridors are now wide and bright -- in case you're unaware, a rehab is finishing up soon. You also have the option of transferring at 34th, which isn't bad when it isn't crowded. And, depending on where you're going, you might find that one of the other transfers provided by the Q will get you there more easily, or you might simply take the Q and walk.
Your reference to switching the 2/3 is nonsensical. It is nowhere near the same thing. The D can easily be scheduled to stop at DeKalb. It can be done on a moment's notice.
Indeed, it is nonsensical, because the 2/3 would only have to merge with the 1 to stop at 59th, but the D would have to merge with first the R and then the Q to stop at DeKalb. That's two places the D might have to wait to merge, potentially delaying both N's and R's behind it. The 2/3 would only have one merge.
Again, what I don't understand is why the hell the jerks at MTA would have not realized what an inconvenience this is for Brighton riders many of whom do want 6th Avenue service. It is not as if the survey they supposedly took showed 95% of the riders want Broadway, it was probably something like 53%=47%.
Closer to 60%.
So to me it is no big deal to have the D stop at DeKalb. It is as if some bureacratic idiot looked at the map, having no idea of the terrible connection at Atlantic and decided there is a transfer at Atlantic so Brighton riders do not need a convenient transfer at DeKalb.
No, somebody decided that it wasn't worth introducing two potential merge delays so that a small fraction of passengers on the Q train wouldn't have to walk through a relatively short, wide, well-lit passageway. I disagree with that decision, but I can understand the reasoning behind it. If you stopped ranting and thought about it for a minute, you might too.
And it is very much germane to the discussion to point out 4th Avenue riders have easy connections to either Broadway or 6th Avenue 24/7 so why shouldn't Brighton riders?
No it's not. This isn't a conspiracy. As I said, 4th Avenue is the convergence of three services. You want NYCT to send them all up the same route in Manhattan just so somebody else is inconvenienced as well? Do you really think that makes sense?
You've blown things a wee bit out of proportion. The Brighton line is not the center of the universe.
Brighton riders will have no convenient service to 6th Avenue weekends and during a window period weekdays between the time the B stops running and the D starts stopping at DeKalb.
We are trying to point out that the transfer at Atlantic is terribly inconbvenient, involves a long between 5 and 10 minute walk through a narrow corridor. Nobody is saying that Brighton should have both 6th Avenue and Broadway service weekends. I concede that point. But in the past, Brighton riders always had an easy cross platform transfer when Brighton was primaryily 6th Avenue. Why isn't it being done now?
Brighton line riders are being shafted BIG TIME. Unjustly the B will stop running after 9:30 PM weeknights but the V which has far less ridership will still run until 11:30 PM. One of the purposes of the V was to provide direct access to Lexington Ave service from 6th Ave via. 53rd st. Since the F reroute to 63rd st makes travel slightly inconvenient for customers at 5th Ave, Lexington Ave, 23rd st/Ely and Queens Plaza to access 6th Ave service, why the big deal? If anything on weekends anyway, to access 6th Ave from those stations would require taking the E to 7th Ave and (mind you!), a cross-platform transfer to the D. Not one level upstairs or one level downstairs, an EASY CROSS-PLATFORM TRANSFER TO 6th Ave service. The same holds true if you started at 6th Ave and wanted to get to the 4 stations on the E line, you take the D to 7th Ave and a simple CROSS-PLATFORM transfer there. So the V is a waste of scheduling after 9 PM and there are two QBL local services after 8:30 PM anyway.
But try getting the Brighton Q from West 4th st, B'way Lafayette, or Grand St. You would have to either. 1) Take uptown D to 34th st and transfer to Q OR 2) Take D to Pacific St and walk long-a&$ passageway to the Q at Atlantic. Grand St is the worst place to be, you have little choice to go to Pacific. And many Chinese riders from Avenue U might use Grand St instead of Canal, this is chaos at it's worst. The B should run until 11 PM at the latest, I do see some demand from 6th Ave stations, then the D will have to stop at Dekalb Ave on weekends for the transfer to the Q. What is NYCT's birdbrain idea to have the D bypass Dekalb when the B is not running and involves a merge with one R line at Dekalb Ave and one N at Pacific?
The B will still have more riders at 10 PM than the V line and it is crucial that Central Park West and Brighton line riders be afforded the extra service.
The V can be extended to 179th st, there are 8 tracks that can be used for relays, the F, V, and a few E's can handle it.
Again, you are right, base the 2 local services on what is most convenient and needed at night, the R and V.
This would not be extra service for Central Park West riders. Their present service runs to 11 P.M. or so. It is scheduled, come 2/22, to be cut back by seven or eight trains to around 9:30.
The TA is pulling a fast one here on CPW riders. Obviously, one of the TA's objectives of the new service plan was to save money.
Actually the last (V) starts at 11:33pm and runs until 12:11am (any later and there may be 4 local services running at once if it isn't already). So 2 (V) trains run after midnight. The last (R) reaches 71st Av at 12:18am 7 days a week. So there are also two (R) trains running (in Queens) after midnight as well.
Just email the MTA, if enough people complain, they would have to give in eventually, look at 191st Street on the (1) and (9).
Granted, during off-peark hours, the ridership is low but SOME trains do have all seats full.
At least people are using it.
That argument could be used for almost any other route in the system.
::sobs:: No more express slants...DAMN YOU TA!!
All CI-based routes (except the Franklin shuttle) run express somewhere. Since all R-40's are assigned to CI, they're certainly going to run on an express.
Actually, what it needs are subway cars with very long MTBF numbers, full climte control, a comfortable ride, and reasonably good graffittiresistancce. This describes the R68 best.
As R143 and 160 cars arrive, the subway fleet will become easier to maintain due to the uniformity, and yes, will look more monotonous as other cars are retired.
Fact of life and there is no going back.
And other lines don't deserve that? The older equipment is still here, somebody has to get it. I didn't say anything about the future, or that R68's were good or bad for commuters. Just expressing my own personal opinion that the West End is a rather boring el (from a railfan perspective), and the R40's would liven it up (from a railfan perspective).
As long as it's not being pulled by a steeplecab!
Mark
The only issue I have, and it's clearly semantic, is the statement that the R runs 'all times', but only runs late nights as a shuttle between 36th and 95th- the way it has for many years. Wouldn't it make more sense to say that during late nights the R does not run in Manhattan or Queens- only as a shuttle between 36th and 95th? Or is this too 'negative'?
It's interesting that the N will run local along Broadway weekend day AND night. Apparently one service -the R- is not enough to handle crowding at Prince, 8th, 23rd and 28th. Judging from the extremely heavy shopping crowds on Broadway between Herald Square and Flatiron, and a huge tourist presence in the Village, they made the right decision.
Having only one service through Court Street will cause confusion, especially midday weekdays, a time when people have gotten accustomed to having three.
The Q can continue to use the Manhattan Bridge, 2 services are not needed below Canal St on late nights.
As it currently is, the 2/22 service changes will not last long.
Does that mean that it's being torn down???
Better to take the 4 at Chambers than to double back unexpectedly.
That's silly. So because a few fools may make a mistake, the majority of M riders have to suffer the loss of the Fulton St transfers to the West Side IRT and the CPW/8th Ave line. It's absolutely ridiculous that they should cut the M line off from the Fulton Transfer all day long. They have to deal with that nights and weekends already, they shouldn't have to deal with that during the day weekdays too.
Let me take up the case of our neglected friend -- the DeKalb Avenue rider.
As it stands now, weekends and evenings DeKalb will have no access to 6th Avenue without either backtracking to Pacific Street or riding to 34th and transferring.
Essentially, DeKalb takes on local stop status with D and N trains passing through. You can see the D train go by, you just can't get on it. Unlike other local stations, though, you can't catch the express with an easy transfer further down the line.
The only other station I can think of where you have that situation is at Briarwood/Van Wyck on the F, where you can see Jamaica Center bound E trains pass through -- but you can't get them without backtracking. Are there any others?
CG
CG
It is the weekend DeKalb Avenue rider from 6th Avenue in Manhattan who has the problem. And my guess is there are very few of those. For Brooklynites, DeKalb will have access from both the Brighton and the 4th Avenue lines.
When it comes to getting to the eastern half of Downtown Brooklyn, the real losers are F riders south of 4th Avenue. The F is the only line is southern Brooklyn that doesn't go to the area. The A is a backtrack, the transfer to the R includes a TON of stairs, and the G comes infrequently -- not bad for a one train ride, awful with a transfer.
Hey, you're not calling New Flyer #857 a chicken now are you???!!!
(just kidding, see:
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=642036)
CG
A similar problem exists at 50th Street IND, with no transfer between CPW and Queens services -- there's an underpass, but it's been closed for a long time. And at 42nd, the platforms are offset, with 8-car C trains stopping well forward of the rearmost staircases. On weekdays the B comes in handy, but on weekends it's either C to 42nd and backtrack or a double transfer.
Sorry, I don't remember the car numbers -- after getting off, I was too busy trying to wedge my way onto a crush loaded 1 to search for a slip of paper.
Da Hui
Nope, it's the same lady. Also, I believe with these updated announcements, she does the transfers also instead of Charlie.
Yeah, it's a shame.
At least we'll always hear him before the doors close! (Except on the (6), where the C/R's will try to shut him up. ;))
Old 5:>> This is a Manhattan-bound 5 train.
2:>> The next stop is
6:>> 125th Street
Charlie:>> Stand clear of the closing doors, please!
That's right, FOUR different voices!
Taking the automated announcements a little too seriously?
2 TO WAKEFIELD - 241 ST
2 7 AV EXPRESS
2 BRONX EXPRESS
I prefer feeling the acceleration because it let's me know I am making progress and prepares me for the disappointment for any stops.
I like it, too. On a car door elevator (i.e., you open the door in the hallway manually, but the elevator's door is automagic), it's not bad to have ultra smoothness because there's a window to look out and see if you're going. On a regular (master door) type, it's annoying as hell because you can't tell if the thing's actually doing anything.
Hey Phil, elevator questions for ya.
1) Why hasn't anyone ever made a Stop cancel button for when one presses the wrong button.
I've heard that in Japan, this is actually a feature on many elevators - if you 'doubleclick' the button, it'll cancel the stop. I don't know why it's not popular here, though I suspect it has something to do with cost, since on some theoretical level, you'd need an extra wire to the car per call (traveling cables are NOT cheap!). But there's lot of ways around that.
2) Has anyone ever considered a VIP key that turns a regular elevator into an express and can call an elevator from its previously scheduled tasks?
There's a few things:
*Independent service - this will can all the calls and let only car calls stay in. Need to be in the car, though. Oh yeah, and the controller's smart - the door's won't close automatically so you can't lock your keys in the elevator :)
*Attendant service. This again requires a key in the car, but allows you to control a bit more, like direction, killing calls, non stop, etc. It's more like car switch for blabbering idiots.
*The magical fire key. Inserted into the lobby keyswitch, will cause the elevator to stop at the next floor, then return to lobby (without opening the doors at all). It also sets off buzzers and bells and all, and tends to annoy occupants of the elevator. Some types also don't easily 'forget' about this, and will get stuck in fire return until you go into the car and reset via another key. Firemen and other official types frown on you using it, though.
* EMT service, and Hospital emergency. Much like the above, only fewer bells ringing. Not surprisingly, this one's popular in hospitals.
* Other. Customers require REALLY weird features sometimes. If they want a VIP key, we'll do it. There's lots of interesting combinations, along with a few we had no reason WHY they wanted, but did them anyway. One of the latter that comes to mind was a recent one that had door open/close buttons in the hallway, in adition to the car. This was a royal pain to implement (well, the whole controller was, actually), partly because of the large I/O demands. We got it because nobody else wanted it :P Naturally, you want the buttons to work ONLY when the car's at that floor :)
Other popular features:
* Load weighing a/k/a 'blimp switch'. Use your imagination here.
* Car call key switches. Prevent you from putting in car calls without the magic key.
* Hall call key switches. Popular with schools, or any other place you need an elevator to impress people, but not actually use it.
* 'Security' features. i.e., you can only go to certain floors from certain other floors, you can't go place at certain times, etc etc etc. These gets really bizzare.
* Hall travel lanterns. The up down arrows (travel lanterns) are in the hallway. Especially fun when mixed with car travel lanterns to duplicate the functionality 8 inches away in the car.
* Sabbath service. the eleator goes up a floor, opens/closes the doors, goes up another, and repeats. Don't laugh, this is a VERY common feature.
* S button. The bell in the car (stop/pass gong) only runs if someone's pushed this button. Allows quiet operation, yet blind people can still get in and have the bell, to count floors. (that's also why many elevators now ring the travel lantern twice if the elevator's going down, once if up).
* The big, candy red stop button. Can be bypassed in certain situations, BTW. Also good for holding the doors open - great for moving lots of stuff in/out of the elevator.
* Nudging. You're holding the door for your friend, when suddenly a big nasty buzzer tries to scare you out of the doorway. You ignore it, and the door ignores you and starts closing gently anyway.
*Anti nussiance. Screw with the elevator too much, dumps the calls, stop running for X minutes.
Even though I earlier said that the elevators in the John Hancock Center (Chicago) were my favorite, I should also give honorable mention to the double-deck express elevators in the Sears Tower. It's as if the (2) and (3) subway lines were using bi-level subway trains, with bi-level platforms at all express stations. :-)
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
--Mark
The configuration works something like this:
Street level lobby (floors 1-2):
- One bank of eight double-deck express elevators directly serving the skylobby on floors 33-34.
- One bank of six double-deck express elevators directly serving the skylobby on floors 66-67.
- four banks of six local elevators each, serving floors 1-32.
Lower skylobby (floors 33-34):
- The aforementioned eight double-deck express elevators from street level.
- Four banks of five local elevators each, serving floors 35-65.
Upper skylobby (floors 66-67):
- The aforementioned six double-deck express elevators from street level.
- Three banks of four local elevators each, serving floors 68-99.
The three lobbies (levels 1-2, levels 33-34, and levels 66-67) each have escalators that go between the two levels of the lobby.
The upper floors have fewer elevators serving them because, due to the building setbacks, the upper floors aren't as large as the lower floors (and thus, don't have as many people working on them).
There are also various other elevators in the building, such as freight elevators, and elevators serving the below-grade parking garage and 103rd-floor observatory.
Mind you, this is all from memory (I used to work on the 54th floor of the Sears Tower), so I'm sure I've got a few details wrong.
The Aon Center in Chicago (formerly Amoco Building, formerly Standard Oil Building) also has double-deck elevator cabs, but they're local elevators serving even/odd floors. I used to know somebody who worked in that building, and she said the elevator configuration was a royal pain in the ass. If you work on the 33rd floor and need to visit your boss on the floor above you, you need to take an elevator all the way down to the lobby, take an escalator one floor, and then take another elevator (possibly the same elevator you just came down on) to the 34th floor. And of course you reverse the whole process to get back to your own desk on 33. IMO, the configuration in the Sears Tower is by far more preferable.
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
I have another question: Do both floors of each lobby have access to the local elevators, or just one?
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
"*The magical fire key. Inserted into the lobby keyswitch, will cause the elevator to stop at the next floor, then return to lobby (without opening the doors at all). It also sets off buzzers and bells and all, and tends to annoy occupants of the elevator. Some types also don't easily 'forget' about this, and will get stuck in fire return until you go into the car and reset via another key. Firemen and other official types frown on you using it, though."
my personal experience, these keys are a pain in the gazooka. Never accidently send a fleet of elevators into fire mode and try to reset the thing unless you're really a techie, and even then it's a pain.
Yea, i like elevators too, but I can't stand the push ones at all, only the cable ones are cool.
I've heard that in Japan, this is actually a feature on many elevators - if you 'doubleclick' the button, it'll cancel the stop. I don't know why it's not popular here, though I suspect it has something to do with cost, since on some theoretical level, you'd need an extra wire to the car per call (traveling cables are NOT cheap!). But there's lot of ways around that.
Just imagine kids playing with the buttons, as mine do - the elevator would get so confused!!
--Mark
When I was in college the engineering school was screwing around with voice activated floor call entry. It never worked very well.
If it's anything like those automated phone prompts, or especially *511, I can see why. Everytime I start swearing at it, i get random menus!
"Welcome to the XYZ elevator. To select a floor, please say the floor number you wish".
"15"
"You selected floor fifty. If this is correct, say 'yes'. If this is not correct, say 'no'"
"No"
"To select a floor, please say the floor number you wish".
"13"
"You selected floor thirty. If this is correct, say 'yes'. If this is not correct, say 'no'"
"Oh, what's the use ... I'll walk - where's the open button"
"I'm sorry, 'where's the open button' is not a valid response. To select a floor, please say the floor number you wish".
"I'll give you a wish .. &**#&*&$#&*(#()"
"You requested floor '**#&*&$#&*(#()' - that is available by using the subway ...."
--Mark
here's he link
And some from the bitterly cold Hicksville platform tonight
I remember always hearing a GP38 or MP15, turning my horse away from the tracks, watchin the train roar through behind the trees, then hear the horn a few seconds later as it approached some crossing near Glen Head station(I still hear that train once in a while from my house, which is on the other side of the harbor). Everyday, the same great routine.
Hell, I remember seeing a work train go down the line once or twice. The last year I was there was when they first introduced the C3's. I only saw them once or twice on the line. After that, they moved some of the horses to Calumett(or however you spell it), and the others went somewhere else, I think off the island. Yea...lots of good memories from that horse farm. Too bad it's all changed now.
What are they doing with the space? Or should I just guess -- McMansions?
CG
By any chance, do you know Kay Marra or Bonnie? Both of them worked at Glen Head.
CG
The service uses the Talgo train, and this was my first experience on it. I rode in business class, which added a $12 supplement to my $19.80 base fare (including AAA discount). A $3-off coupon for on-board food was provided. Business class has two compartments, with 18 seats per compartment in a 2 x 1 layout. In addition, there is a bistro car (including seating area), and eight coach class cars. Power units are on either end permitting bidirectional operation. A full length movie was shown (in all classes) on overhead monitors. Personal headsets were accomodated, or could be purchased for $4. All seats have power outlets for laptops, and in my compartment most people were typing away. The conductor knew many of the business class passengers by name -- it seems as though many people commute weekly or more often on this train. Crew consisted of a conductor, assistant conductor, engineer, bistro car attendant, and Talgo maintainer. The latter crew member came in handy when we had to stop for two minutes to change an air hose!
I found the ride a bit harsh, especially when going over switches. There was a noted "ker-PLUNK," much more noticable than on standard AMFLEET coaches, and which is practically non-existant on Acela Express. Another minor annoyance was the doors separating the cabins. They opened quietly with the turn of a handle, but closed automatically with a pneumatic mechanism that hisses and spits loudly for about twelve seconds per operation. So every time a passenger or conductor moved through the compartment, there were noticable sounds you don't hear on AMFLEET or Acela Express.
When the movie is not on, the screens display real-time trip information, including current time, ETA at the trip's terminal, the next station stop, and the current outdoor temperature. There is also a crude map, showing the current location and that of the next station.
The southbound trip was on-time, and with a three hour running time, was about one hour faster than my return trip northbound on the Coast Starlight #14 Viewliner train. I could see the wayside speed limit signs, with three designations, such as "T75, P70, F50," indicating 75mph for Talgo, 70mph for other passenger, and 50mph for freight. MAS on the route is 79mph, though the train is capable of 120mph. The conductor told me that the Talgo was authorized for 12% faster speed through curves than the Viewliners.
The northbound trip on #14 was $19.80 reserved coach - there's no business class, though sleeping compartments were available for long-distance travelers. I was able to wander through the train... and had dinner in the dining car. The first class parlor car was really spectacular, looking like a wood-paneled, double-decker version of Seashore's Liberty Bell 1030. The train ended up being an hour late end-to-end (it started in LA); the explanation was that when Amtrak runs in UP territory, it gets second rate service. BNSF is much more cooperative.
It was a good railfanning trip. Back to the weather conference. And that's Transit and Weather Together.
While we're at it, anyone else here notice how well the M-1s ride on the newly re-tied sections of the LIRR? It's like night/day Vs the older stuff. I'm suspecting that they're touchy about track. Pioneer III trucks are a weird design, very cool, but they don't seem to like substandard track at all...
Well that's one of the problems with US vs European equipment. Their stuff requires much higher maintainence standards, standards that our rail industry simply can't afford. I mean a swiss watch works great, but its hardly the type of thing you would want to subject to a lot of abuse. Its been true since the DeGlenn atlantic. European equipment simply falls appart when subjected to American conditions and maintainence practices.
Really.
Mark
For example, might there be more R32s serving the R line to keep up with the increased demand that the MTA is talking about?
If this isn't adequate, then think back to before the north side closed in the summer of '01, and the car assignments then.
Robert
--Mark
Sorry
Robert
Route familiarization is scheduled from midnight 1/17 to 5:00 AM 1/19 (first round?). The OPTO shuttle will continue to run from W4 to Grand; but it will then make a light long relay to Pacific Street to turn back northbound (light to Grand). It will turn back southbound north of W4.
E-mail me your mailing adderess and I will send you a United
States Postal Service money order.
John
Then I ask if I was on an F or a V. :)
It was an F, so I told the girl how many more stops there were in Manhattan, and then said that the F goes express in Queens, so it should only be 2 or 3 stops after that.
Then after I got off I checked a map in the station, to make sure I gave her the right info -- and couldn't find Continental Ave. Anywhere on the Qns Blvd line! I seem to remember it was 71-Continental, so perhaps "Forest Hills, 71st Avenue" is the stop the girl was looking for? Anyway I hope she gets off there.
So what happened to Continental?
-West End Scott, who soon will never have to transfer at 34th again. Unless he wants to.
-W.E.S.
See everyone Saturday.
P.S.: I will be railfanning that day with mom, so I'll post my newest photos in my album on SubwaySpot.com that day.
: )
2004 Stillwell Reopening
2005 Complete Stillwell Open
Complete Second Avenue Subway
Smith Express Example
It's only an example - so no coments to the chosen lines - i think we
have discussed this enough in other threads and should do it only in
other threads
South Ferry station will be closed for reconstruction in late 2004, according to the MTA timetable.
The V will go only as far a Kings Highway.
By the time SAS is built, the free transfer from IND to Uptown 6 line at Bleecker Street will be built a long time ago. Also Jay Street/IND to Lawrence St/BMT in Downtown Brooklyn will also have a free transfer in about 4 to 5 years from now.
7 train will be extended to Javits Center, you can add a station there and put a question mark on the location of the station along 10th Ave, I'm not sure where it will be.
Free transfer from 1/9 at South Ferry to R/W/N at Whitehall St will be in place when South Ferry reopens in 2007.
Most obviously, the circular line number symbols beside lines are incomplete; in particular:
You show D (but not B) along the Concourse line.
You show D and F (but not B or V) along Sixth Avenue.
You show D N and Q (but not B) crossing Manhattan Bridge.
You show Q (but not B) along the Brighton line.
You show A (but not C) along the Fulton line.
You show R (but not N Q or W) along the Broadway line.
You show 1 (but not 9) along the West Side IRT line.
These symbols convey no information that is not already apparent from the line numbers beside stations. So they are unnecessary. But if you include them they should be complete, otherwise they are worse than useless.
A less serious error is that you show four express stops on the M line, including Metropolitan Av.
And the Eastern Parkway line local stops (including Bergen) are a relic from when the MTA saw it fit to list the local 4 to New Lots on the map because it also runs as such Sundays until 10AM or so.
This error is fixed. May be you have the old GIF in you browser cache
and you see the old map.
CG
"NEW YORK (Reuters) - Bush administration officials are planning a $1.5 billion election-year initiative to promote marriage, especially among low-income couples, the New York Times reported on Wednesday...."
Uhh and Amtrak gets 1.2billion
I'd start writing my congressman to vote NO on this 1.5 million plan.
If folks that ain't married are worth $1.5 Billion, those of us who have endured one another for 25 years without burdening the court system or ever living in sin should be worth a choochoo. Of course, I'll settle for Dick Cheney on the moon. :)
It's 100% safe from the towelheads, as it's impossible there to face Mecca.
Or the "undisclosed location".
1) A bachelor is a man who never made the same mistake once.
2) 2 polls were taken regarding the space program. First poll question was should the United States establish a base on the moon and plan manned flights to mars? The 2nd poll was do you support President Bush's plan to establish a base on the moon and plan manned flights to mars? I don't have the exact numbers at my fingertips but the support for #1 was about double for that of #2.
Frankly, I'm against social engineering. I think the President's moral compass is spinning a bit with proposals like this and with his flip on illegal aliens. That having been said, had this been a democratic-proposed program, there'd be a hell of a lot more support for the plan, here.
But yeah, does look like some drug testing is in order down south. :)
I'd like to see it : )
484-100-103-1000-401-800-1440-1689-1801-1300-1802
Now if Ralph and Alice were still alive, BANG!!! ZOOM!!!
There's nothing wrong with polygamy, but if everyone (MEN AND WOMEN) are allowed to have multiple spouses, why bother getting married in the first place?
Marriage is a property-sharing agreement. You don't need a contract to love. If it was only about love, there would be no need for official marriages, people would just decide to live together for the remainder of their lives.
The only debate is how far we go in legislating morality.
If we go one angstrom, that is too far.
How 'bout a tenth of a nanometer?
No, that's too far. We need to go no more than 100 picometers.
The National Socialists were elected by majority rule.
Actually a plurality, not a majority. And they then proceeded to violate the constitution and there wasn't a court system with the gumption to tell them they were violating the law.
Thank God that could never happen in America... [rolls eyes]
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
The Nazi's used a clause within the Weimar constitution granting the Chancellor with dictitorial powers on a temporary basis in times of national emergency. In a sense, the initial seizing of absolute power in 1933 was perfectly legal.
Unless its the constitution or a matter of settled law, the majority has its way.
If not by advocating your ideas and seeing them pass by majority vote, how would you force a change that you think is right?
People do that all the time. But it's not the issue of moral judgment. Perhaps I could agree with you in some pre-Dickensian milieu in which government has little control of all but criminal behavior and gives nothing to people in trouble. But when the government grants benefits itself, and requires others (such as employers) to grant additional benefits, it has the responsibility to encourage behavior which prevents people from creating burdens for society.
Otherwise we're simply arguing the degree to which the government should be either parent or nanny.
No, it's not. The first three commandments and the tenth commandemnt have no modern secular equivalent whatsoever. The remainder of the commandments are not unique, and most of them are or nearly are universal values held by many cultures.
AMERICA was founded on a basis of LIBERTY ... if you weren't a redcoat, government would stay OUT of the bedroom and INSTEAD govern the boardroom for the common good. All I can say is "whoopsie" at how it's all turned out. And ain't a liber-RAIL vs. Conservatwit thing - our REPUBLIC was formed over the mighty principle of "INTERSTATE COMMERCE" and had NOTHING to do with "morality" ... like TRUE religion, ALL MORALITY is between "yee and God" ... "judge thou NOT." Don't mind me, I *worked* for Jim and Tammy, I was the 6 and 11 news ANCHOR on a station that was secretly owned by TBN ... As a Catholic, it's between "me and Jesus" ... no mortal need interfere. Yet, we have POLITICOS ... just so ya can dig where I'm coming from. I'm a SERIOUS conservative, not one of these three stooges types at the handles today. :(
All philosophy is human.
If it is in someone's interest to kill someone, let's say, it doesn't make it right.
But it is not in society's interest, and that's why there are police and courts and jails and in many countries, executioners. In the United States, these derive their power from the people they protect.
But because of the decaying nature of mankind
Crusades
World Wars
Bunch of stuff in between
Yep, we've really degraded since then, haven't we?
who knows what will be right 20 years from now. And it's scary.
All that has happened is a liberalization of society, and by that I don't mean a shift to left-wing politics, I mean a greater degree of LIBERTY. That is good. Still, if you don't like it, you can always move to Saudi Arabia.
Ww've already had 40 years of legislation that's done that the above very nicely, and discouraged marriage at the same time.
They've skewed the marketplace in many ways, and are continuing to do so.
Raising a child independent of a spouse does not bring the independence the Brave New World promised.
And I didn't have the 19th amendment in mind.
You're a smary guy, Mike, and I'm sure you're excellent in your studies. But might I suggest a few good courses in debate and rhetoric?
Telling me what I must support in order to assert an opinion is a transparent debating technique. Further, you begged the question by stating that I am "so worried about single parent households." I addressed your point of indpendence when I said "Raising a child independent of a spouse does not bring the independence the Brave New World promised."
You also attempt to characterize my position by saving that I "must also support family size limits," which implies that I don't, a position of mine that you have no knowledge of.
After all, if someone had 16 kids it isn't magically made better by two parents.
Therefore you imply:
whether one or two people raise "16 kids" is irrelevant?;
and that the core issue of the debate on the importance of marriage consists of the problem of raising large families?
Of course you don't support family size limits because you're working on some sort of traditional moral code instead of logic. One parent households can work just fine just like two parent households can be dysfunctional. The real issue is resources available to each child, not parents per family.
Second, I am not looking at this from an essentially moral, but a practical perspective. An awful lot of people are acknowledging that, all things being equal, a two-parent household is perferable.
Setting up the popular straw man (excuse me, straw person) of comparing a good single-parent household with a dysfunctional two-parent obscures the issue.
It's like the argument comparing the value of human and animal life. You have two humans and a rat in a lifeboat. Their survival depends on one organism being thrown overboard. Which one? (Never mind using logic that the rat might be able to swim better, or that the humans eat more than the rat--the issue is inherent value of life).
Now I would argue that, as a human, I would value the human life more, but the rat's mom would probably prefer the rat.
OTOH, you could pose the question "But suppose the rat is Squeaky the Wonder Rat, whose alertness saved an entire orphanage of children from a fire? and the human is Adolf Hitler. THEN which would you save?"
Now my point in the second is valid, because it challenges certain prejudices, but it begs the question because what is the likelihood or finding such a fine rat and such a despicable human in such a situation?
(BTW, your further technique of assuming you have rhetorically cornered me by forcing to debate on your terms doesn't impress me either. Sorry.)
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
200 years of liberty? Someone needs a history lesson ...
It doesn't rob anyone of their freedom, it just robs everyone of their money.
From what little I've heard, it wouldn't be an issue of "teaching mariiage," per se, but rather giving people the kind of personal skills that most people have to learn in life--how to negotiate with others instead of making demands, how to get along with someone you share a home and bed with, how to resolve an argument without abuse, threats, or abandonment.
It may sound stupid, but it is amazing how important it is to learn how to make marriage not simply ME and YOU, but US, and learn how to give a little and get a little.
I think it was a little revealing when Britney had her marriage "joke" that her mother said she wasn't as upset that her "little girl" went and got hitched on a lark, but that she didn't get a pre-nup. People today have been taught to look at the end of a relationship before they even start it. Is it any wonder that they don't value permanent bonds, no matter how destructive it may be to their children, society, and eventually themselves?
It doesn't rob anyone of their freedom, it just robs everyone of their money.
Oh, well, if that's the issue Marriage Instruction will have to wait in line with all the other federal taxpayer muggers.
I agree however this could be a sign that he is not going to support the anti states rights constitutional amendment and needs to do something to appease the religious right. Given the choice of the two I'll take this.
If you're talking about the marriage amendment, I agree. But I'm not worried, amendments are difficult to get in there.
Those guys saying the lowest tax bracket will be 30% in the future are starting to look like prophets now.
--Mark
The article referred to in the original post says NOTHING about FORCING people to marry!
Quoting from the article
"The plan would provide at least $1.5 billion for training to help couples develop interpersonal skills that sustain 'healthy marriages,' the paper said."
How do you see "development of interpersonal skills" as "forcing people to marry"? I, personally, agree with the idea that communication and the family are important in society, and I also believe that circumstances in this world today indicate that this vital element of society is breaking down. I think that this is a good idea Dubya has for improving family relationships, but what I'm not too crazy about is the price tag. Does it really need to be $1.5 billion? What constitutes such a price tag? What's going to go into it that would require that much money?
Now I don't consider this to be blown funds, but rather, an investment for the future of America.
(NOTE: I regulary don't reply to these off-topic threads, but I had to express my opinions on this important part of life.)
There's more marginal votes in it for idiot boy by pandering to the Religious Reich than by giving pork to NYC.
I can see and hear it now. "NEXT STOP MOONBASE REAGAN". Give me a BREAK!!!
Launching a mission direct from Earth is foolish, expensive and impractical. Earth has far more gravity than the Moon, requiring more energy to break free. The Moon is the only nearby celestial body that we know how to visit were we can prepare to visit a farther, more massive and more unforgiving place.
And visiting Mars just for a PR stunt (like the original Moon mission) is an incredible waste of time and money. If we must visit Mars, we must STAY THERE. Permanent habitation of the Moon is a good first step (actually, second step, a space station is the first).
People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
Launching a mission direct from Earth is foolish, expensive and impractical. Earth has far more gravity than the Moon, requiring more energy to break free.
Think for a moment about where the mass one will be launching from the moon will come from in the first place. Anything that gets launched from the Moon will first have to be launched from the Earth. Preparing an interplanetary mission from a moonbase is therefore even more energy intensive than launching directly from the Earth as the energy costs of moving mass into orbit must be paid twice.
The only possible exception is if a sizable proportion of the mass of an interplanetary craft can be made on the Moon using lunar, not imported, materials. Given the complete lack of lunar industrial infrastructure the prospect of building something as high-tech as a spacecraft on the moon using lunar resources is many hundreds of years away at minimum.
This came down from an inside source deep within the electronic
media industry with government ties......
---------------------------------------------
Martian Air Force denies UFO crash
Gusev Crater (MPI) - A spokesthing for Mars Air Force denounced
as "false rumors" that an alien space craft crashed in the
desert, outside of Ares Vallis on Saturday. Appearing at a press
conference today, General Rgrmrmy The Lesser stated that "the
object was, in fact, a harmless high-altitude weather balloon,
not an alien spacecraft".
The story broke late Saturday night when a major stationed at
nearby Ares Vallis Air Force Base contacted the Gusev Crater
Daily Record with a story about a strange, balloon-shaped object
which allegedly came down in the nearby desert, "bouncing"
several times before coming to a stop, and "deflating in a sudden
explosion of alien gases."
Minutes later, General Rgrmrmy The Lesser contacted the Daily
Record telepathically to contradict the earlier report. General
Rgrmrmy The Lesser stated that hysterical stories of a detachable
vehicle roaming across the Martian desert were blatant fiction,
provoked by incidences involving swamp
gas.
But the general public has been slow to accept the Air Force's
explanation of recent events, preferring to speculate on the
"other-worldly" nature of the crash debris. Conspiracy theorists
have condemned Rgrmrmy's statements as evidence of "an obvious
government cover-up," pointing out that Mars has no swamps. They
point to the release of secret government memos detailing
attempts to discredit reports of the landings by alien space
craft. The memos discuss strategies to avoid troubles similar to
those caused by the War of the Worlds radio program of years ago.
The program, which featured a sensational story of gigantic
oxygen breathing two-eyed invaders from Earth, sparked planet
wide panic.
Local residents like Driv Rhodo, who lives in the area of the
alleged landings, are even more skeptical. "I seen it with my
own 5 eyes" claimed Rhodo last week. "I've lived here over 300
years, most of my adult life-form. Them things used to be few
and far between but lately they come in every few years or so.
The government wants to bury the truth but I can tell you what's
real. The Earthlings are going to invade and the government
is spending our hard earned tax dollars on press releases and
denials instead of preparing for the battle to come."
A spokesthing denied any government involvement in the
disappearance of Rhodo, who has not been seen since shortly after
the interview, claiming "Any sentient being knows that a planet
with the concentrations of water and oxygen found on Earth is a
deadly and inhospitable environment for the formation of life,
much less intelligent life. The fear and consternation caused by
the unfounded and wild speculations of citizens like Rhodo are a
traitorous disservice to the citizens of Mars."
=====
"Fooling around with alternating current is just a waste of time. Nobody will use it, ever."
[Thomas Edison, 1889]
But what the Martian Press (or the Earthian Press either) doesn't know is that Beagle II is sitting on a Martian farmer's mantle piece, even as we speak, right next to Aunt Tyllizz's ceramic Scrnxx.
I was only pointing out that the article was old by using areographic knowledge.
And I posted this to use the word areographic.
This is what I was thinking of. Why are we in such a hurry to go to Mars? A mission just for PR will be a complete waste. It'd not like the moon where you can go there and back in a week.
Ineffective. Ralph and Alice are already married.
So, could I interest you in Darlene?
Now I usually don't mind off topic posts, especially light hearted ones involving New York such as Nedick's Franks or egg creams, but a thread to discuss the institution of Marriage, or to discuss politics, is as off-topic as you can get!!!
It's at least as funny as all the left-wing "humor" the rest of you are writing...
They charge for reading articles. Next time you should have told us at least the title or the author so that I could find the article in Lexis-Nexis.
They didn't when I viewed the site!
If express service were to be reinstated, it should run in the reverse peak direction. From Manhattan AMs and to Manhattan PMs.
- Why do you say that? what would be the point of having a reverse peak direction express out to Astoria?
N Bwy
Astoria Blvd Station
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s1025620.htmne
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s1025620.htm
Austalians are famous for their colourful phrases!
You just answered your own question.
I do understand that there were places were lines were built under els, but they presented engineering difficulties.
However, if they could have built it under Columbus Avenue north of 59th St., they still could have moved it over to 8th Avenue south of 59 St.
Exactly! The 6th Ave was built last BECAUSE of the difficulty of building under the el. If you can find it, Kramers BUILDING THE INDEPENDENT SUBWAY,is an excellent guide to the building of the original IND - LOTS of nice construction photos.
The D is express only because of the loud whining of the bronx riders, and historical service patterns.
What is it to you if the D runs local? 3 minutes lost, ONLY if you are going to a D line station south of 59th st. otherwise, it makes no difference to you.
What is it to the CPW riders who wish to go to 6th ave?
UP TO 30 MINUTES(UP TO 1 HOUR LATE NIGHTS) What about 8th? UP TO 15 MINUTES
So let me ask again, Why should the D run Express when there are more people on every platform that the train is skipping then on the train itself.
If you want a premium service, use MNR and pay a premium fare.
Also 6th Avenue (D) would still run express and the (F) is the only local, so CPW isn't the only place with 1 local
Each line should at least have 1 Express Running, prime example my night ride on the 2 line is doubled in time thanks to it being the 7th Avenue Local at night and its ALWAYS positioned behind the 1.
Return the 2 to the Express on 7th Avenue, keep the D the overnight Express and also make the A a full time Manhattan Express.......
Regards,
Trevor Logan
If you ride the 2 train at night, having to go from SoHo to Freeman Street. You wouldn't be saying that. Even spacing it out the ride is too long!
Stay in your place!
Also, you and others should abandon the "only NYers can post on certain threads" theory. If you don't like what we have to say, tough. Clearly, if we were totally ignorant, we wouldn't post anything. Maybe I'll vote Republican so we can have restrictions on what states people can travel to. M4 and I won't be able to visit New York and you won't be able to come down here. Sound good?
I feel you can not comment on something that doesnt affect you, that's like me saying "Oh The Red Line needs to run to 3 in the morning so that when I come down to visit I can stay longer." I would be dead wrong....GET MY POINT?!?!??!!!!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
As for the out of town bias, it is mainly a BusTalk problem, but the poeple who use it have no real basis for their arguments, so their posts and points on those threads are pretty much worthless.
I agree here. Running the 2 express forces those who must board at a local stop to wait much longer. And at late night You've probably got the same number of people boarding at some Manhattan local stops as you do the express stops.
It was said its unfair for Op Eng II to have a long trip from SoHo to Freeman St, so the 2 should run express. Doesn't a person who has to go from SoHo to Van Courtlandt deserve the same type of service then?
Looking at the response from some on this board, I guess the solution is to eliminate late night locals.
So your 8 minute trip has gone all the way up to 16. My heart bleeds.
I'm speaking for everyone that has the same issue..............
Regards,
Trevor Logan
Try that borough..yeah..forgot what it's called.
Oh yeah, Staten Island. :)
Again, There should be no express service during nights
I have to deal with 1 Train line at night with a transfer to a bus that has a 49 minute headway and thanks to the 1 train that if it doest move quick enought the transfer is lost!
Think about us outer borough boys!
49 minutes? Pfft! When I was working late, I would miss my ferry and it runs on a ONE HOUR headway (and then transfer to a bus with a one hour headway - and no, at that time, the bus doesn't always wait for the boat). Next time you want to play running time increases, list your entire trip; if you say you trip doubles because a train runs local and don't mention that the doubling happens because of a bus connection you can't expect other people to know that.
205th and Perry don't SEEM so bad after YOUR numbers. I suggest either violent revolution, OR - in my BEST Sam Kinnison voice - "***MOOOOOOVVVVVVVEEEEEEE!!!!!!****" ...
I'd kill ... but SERIOUSLY, that sucks too. :(
Preppies!
For those of us who had to endure an HOUR on the train only to get jerked around in Manhattan, it's QUITE the emotion-stoker having our ride diverted to pick up people who only have a ten minute ride to somewhere. But until you've ridden a mile in an outer-borougher's shoes, you'll never get it.
The PROBLEM is that you don't have enough LOCAL service to satisfy you. Diverting expresses is NOT the answer - getting you your PROPER service *is* the answer. You DO still have a borough president, right? Why not see about getting some AA, K or more trains on YOUR tracks and leave "ours" alone? No offense, but this WHOLE issue is "emphasis on the wrong syllable."
Most of the outer borough BUSES don't come into Manhattan. We're scrood. You guys on the other hand *do* have buses that whisk you right downtown and back, and PLENTY of them. If things are THAT bad along the local stops, then chances are you could HOOF it on the tracks and not get hit by anything. :)
OK, ad-hominem alert ... but punishing the outer boroughs FURTHER is NOT the answer to the problem. If this is going to come down to "miles served by token" then perhaps Manhattan rents can be subsidized so that folks don't have to shlep to the Bronx at ALL ...
I'm not expecting you CPW'ers to understand. LIVE in the Bronx for a year, I *promise* you'll "get it." And the same goes for riders of the A, the 1, the 2, the 4, the 5 and the 6. Though I never LIVED in Brooklyn, I *did* work there - DOUBLE agony if you have to go from ONE outer borough to ANOTHER. Used to take me 90 minutes to get to work in RUSH HOUR ... then came the NIGHT shift. Trust me, no sympathy for CPW from those in the outer boroughs. Trust me on this ...
Where's the AA? Where's the K? Where's whatever the hell leaves from 168th THESE DAYS?
It's called the C now. None of the above have provided late-night local service from 168 in the last 25 years.
Maybe a pyrrhic victory, but having our SNAIL finally gather some steam after an endless, mind-numbing ride - stopping at 174th, 170th, 167th where NOBODY seemed to get on or off, and only crowds at 161 were those damned Junkee fans. Heh. But no, we had to stop there just the same for NO DAMNED REASON! :)
But those EXPRESS moments ... suddenly I didn't want to KILL people anymore when I got downtown. (grin)
But it's up to the politicos (the MTA *bows* to politicos *IF* they're in the "party in power NOW") and the "outcry of community boards" (heh) that determines what REALLY happens on steel rails with steel wheels. For all the trouble I get into here over POLITICS, not a SINGLE railcar moves WITHOUT it. :(
Schedules are one thing...but actual experience shows that the A takes 6-7 mins from 59th-125th. The C takes 12-13 mins. It's twice as slow as the A. Not to mention the fact that the A has many people who go above 168th, meaning the A needs more service than the C.
I assure you I'm telling the truth, but then I'm not a regular rider.
...A takes 6-7 mins from 59th-125th. The C takes 12-13 mins. It's twice as slow as the A.
It's 5-7 minutes slower than the A.
I was using CPWRider's example of 6-7 express/12-13 local as a worst-case scenario. It's four minutes' difference as scheduled; for argument's sake, seven at most in the field.
In a way, you're right - since the Manhattan BP is female. In general, though, the office of BP as it is now is useless
STILL ... if the "constituency" is underserved by the MTA, nothing beats another Kilobuck a plate (as Dave Letterman would say, "it's a FETH-tival" ...) party picnic and fundraiser to "send Dick Cheney to MARS event." Like Looto, "hey, you never know." :)
But GEEZ ... get the whiners a damned horsecar ... will ya, WILLLLLBUR?!?!? (grin)
The *IND* was *designed* to provide FREQUENT local and express service that MEETS at 59th ... in MY day, working RUSH HOUR, we'd MEET a CC southbound so folks going to 42 & 8 (why?) could traipse across the platform, and A's met B's similarly. System timed out JUST fine on schdules then ... EVEN in rush hour usually.
Something's TERRIBLY wrong if the old IND schedules have gotten "blowed up" ... it DID work ... and aside from 00:00 to 05:00, there was a local every 6 minutes or less ... 12 minutes between "dead hours" ... I know ... I used to CUT B's into a pair of AA's for my "biweekly nut." (LOVE that phrase!)
On his first try, he'd pull out a lion, quickly stick it back in and say, "No doubt about it. I've gotta get another hat!"
N Bwy
N Bwy
7th Av IRT: #2 Express, #1 Local
Lex IRT: #4 Express, #6 Local
8th Av: A Express, AA, E Locals
CPW: A, D Express, AA Local
Queens: E, F Express, GG Local
BMT: N Express, RR Local, QB Local via Bridge
4 Av: N Express, RR Local
These patterns lasted for decades. What happened that the TA decided to change their philosophy?
The F was local along Queens Blvd late nights while the GG was short turning at Queens Plaza
But if you really want to get started on outer boro subsidies, then look no further than express bus service. Some of the suggestions in this topic push that even further like no local service at all with no sarcasm. Proposals like that only give money to cab operators. And if you're right about Manhattanites taking shorter distance rides, given the fare structure of the subways (one rate to go anywhere modified only by how much you buy ahead of time), it starts to make financial sense to send all trains local. Drawing and carrying more Manhattanites is cheaper. But I'm not going to actually argue that. Sending most of late night trains local is a sensible solution given that we really aren't going to see the MTA add more trains for the 2:00am hour.
I'm not going to argue rights, inherent or otherwise - I'll merely say that to anyone who doesn't "get it" ... MOVE to the Bronx, MOVE to Brooklyn, MOVE to Queens. Live there for a year, RIDE the "express" and then report back to the rest of us. I'm sure reality is its own education. Worked for me - couldn't AFFORD to live in Manhattan in a broom closet, could barely afford to live in the Bronx. Moved upstate instead. Ahhhhhhh. No worries about landlords, no worries about terrorists, and I could personally GIVE a damn where the D train goes. No subways here.
But MAN ... for all of you ... think outside your OWN box for a minute. There's people who do NOT have the luxuries you do ... MANY. Don't screw with their ride ... if service is inadequate, why are you folks trying to rip off someone else's ride when your OWN politicos stole yours? Lemme put it this way. I have to walk ... is it OK to steal someone else's ride because I have to walk?
Hell ... why not just RIP OUT the express tracks EVERYWHERE and turn them into "luxury lanes" Kramer style for SUV's? I'm sure there's those who would make excellent use of those no-longer needed express tracks - and they won't stop at your stop either. :)
BINGO. Giving people equal services for different costs is SOCIALISM. People pay more to live in Manhattan because it's closer to the central business district. If you can't afford the privilege, that's not my fault (unless I cheated you out of your money, which I didn't).
I'll merely say that to anyone who doesn't "get it" ... MOVE to the Bronx, MOVE to Brooklyn, MOVE to Queens. Live there for a year, RIDE the "express" and then report back to the rest of us.
Sorry, not going to work. I don't "get it" and I've lived in Brooklyn for 21 years. And most of that time was spent without access to the subway except through on street park and ride or a bus that runs half-hourly on Saturday and hourly on Sunday (and not at all at night). I don't feel I am somehow entitled to better off peak headways, the buses are empty enough as it is off peak.
No worries about landlords, no worries about terrorists, and I could personally GIVE a damn where the D train goes. No subways here.
atdt5551212. 'nuff said.
But MAN ... for all of you ... think outside your OWN box for a minute. There's people who do NOT have the luxuries you do ... MANY. Don't screw with their ride
Their ride is better than that of many people in the city. Nothing to feel pity about.
if service is inadequate, why are you folks trying to rip off someone else's ride when your OWN politicos stole yours?
Express service is purely supplemental. Four track lines are only built because two tracks cannot handle the load. This is not the case on weekends except along Queens Boulevard.
Hell ... why not just RIP OUT the express tracks EVERYWHERE and turn them into "luxury lanes" Kramer style for SUV's? I'm sure there's those who would make excellent use of those no-longer needed express tracks - and they won't stop at your stop either. :)
This is just worthless hyperbole. No one is advocating the removal of express service during peak hours.
Are you crazy? What about Lexington Avenue? It can't run the 4,5 AND 6 on weekends on the same track without delays. And NO the 4 and 6 can't handle the daytime loads like that, service would be reduced, especially during Yankee Stadium games where the 4 is crush loaded already without having to picking up Manhattan local passengers.
The 7th Avenue line is packed on weekends as well, especially near Times Square, last thing we need is to create crush loaded locals on weekends.
The Fulton Street line has picked up more weekend riders in the past several years and now has express service on the weekends.
Yes it can.
4 tops out at 7½tph
5 tops out at 5tph
6 tops out at 7½tph
That's 20tph - no big deal. At 125th St SB it could work like this (O=odd hour, E=even hour)
O 00 - 4
O 04 - 6
O 06 - 5
O 08 - 4
O 12 - 6
O 16 - 4
O 18 - 5
O 20 - 6
O 24 - 4
O 28 - 6
O 30 - 5
O 32 - 4
O 36 - 6
O 40 - 4
O 42 - 5
O 44 - 6
O 48 - 4
O 52 - 6
O 54 - 5
O 56 - 4
E 00 - 6
E 04 - 4
E 06 - 5
E 08 - 6
E 12 - 4
E 16 - 6
E 18 - 5
E 20 - 4
E 24 - 6
E 28 - 4
E 30 - 5
E 32 - 6
E 36 - 4
E 40 - 6
E 42 - 5
E 44 - 4
E 48 - 6
E 52 - 4
E 54 - 5
E 56 - 6
There's even 10tph spare for Yankees special 4 trains.
The 7th Avenue line is packed on weekends as well, especially near Times Square
Again everything would fit on the local:
1 tops out at 10tph
2 tops out at 5tph
3 tops out at 5tph
The following would fit SB at 96th St (and would put the 2 and 5 trains equally spaced in the Bronx)
02 - 1
05 - 2
08 - 1
11 - 3
14 - 1
17 - 2
20 - 1
23 - 3
26 - 1
29 - 2
32 - 1
35 - 3
38 - 1
41 - 2
44 - 1
47 - 3
50 - 1
53 - 2
56 - 1
59 - 3
Queens Blvd HAS 3 local services from around 8:00pm-12:00am weeknights though, of course the E/F are express. There may be one period when the E becomes local while the V and R are still running, for a potential of 4 QB locals for a short while after midnight(V and R are finishing up until around 12:15).
But i dont think that 1 car can hold the 3000 people per CPW train.
However, to terminate the G and R lines, they would either have to be extended to Union Tpk (skipping 75/Puritan) or run express from 74/Roosevelt, rather defeating the point of the whole exercise.
Where did you think I lived?
I see your point about longer commute running from 72nd Street to 47-50th street. But like Selkirk said, West Side riders do have the bus option to get close to 6th Ave, Bronx riders do not. CPW also has the option to take the 1 (or 2 during late night) from 72 Street (which is about 2 blocks from CPW's 72 Street) to 50th St and walk for a little longer than a block. If the MTA evenly spaced these trains, at worst it shouldn't take a non-disabled person more than 30 minutes. Don't forget about those Bronx riders who may have to walk to/from their station such as Yankee Stadium.
...Well, what about the OTHER great advantage of an express train ride from an outer boro (or from way uptown, like north of 168th St.)...less interruptions in the flow of travel. If the actual duration of an express ride isn't that much shorter than the local, the journey for those furthest out should offer SOME type of inducement for riders. The Girl From The North Bronx needs that little space in the ride, that little extra undisturbed time to maybe read the paper, or to just have some extra moments to think things over.
I don't think this type of thinking is "boro bashing". It's more like marketing to a specific audience. Even in this moderne era, actual distances do have a bearing on what's being sold and who it's being sold to. Transportation = Distance + Time.
This next bit is like a parable. Seemed the easiest way to get my point across.
Constained by political forces, I (the transit authority) am prohibited from offering my services for a variable cost. Hence I must maximize my infrastructure utilization in order to encourage the most business I can carry. And due to a lack of funds I am greatly limitied in my ability to increase that infrastructure.
Luckily, I have been built with a design that allows for multiple parallel vehicle routings. The system stretches out for miles beyond the central part of the city. My business is the best in the country due in no little part to the vibrant residential districts that fill the streets of my most important market. People fortunate enough to be living in those areas are in the heart of the city all the time. Yet there are folk at the exreme ends of my lines who rightfully feel that they are an intrinsic part of the whole. The entire modern era of the city was a result of that feeling, and my extensive transit system. That someone in Gravesend, or Fordham, or Richmond Hill can justifiably feel as much a City Person as someone from Greenwich Village, or The Silk Stocking District, or the Upper West Side can, is really, my sole reason for being in existence. Take that away, reduce that perception of All For One and One For All, and the bulk of my customer base crumbles. It's not an easily quantifiable conclusion. In the end though, it seems to be a correct one.
So what can "I" do? Simple. I WILL run those trains from the furthest reaches as speedy limited stop "streamliners", hopping from node to node as they make their way within and through the Manhattan core. I will complement those through trains with a series of local trains operating on a coordinated schedule to ensure the most convienient transfers from each.
Parable over.
First, we need to remove the timers so that the expresses are really expresses. That'll make the disparity between the local and expresses even greater...killing the argument that we should turn expresses to locals because you don't save any significant amount of time. It USED to be that expresses would save you tons more time. This was how the system was originally designed, and I think how the system should run.
Secondly...once the timers are reduced, we need to increase service on the local. At least to the level of the expresses. If expresses are scheduled to run every 10 mins during the weekends, perhaps locals should run every 10 minutes as well. That way people hopping from a local stop to another station can get enough service, and not hold any grudges against express riders.
ONLY then will this debate cease, and everyone be happy. Will this happen? I'm not holding my breath. I doubt the MTA will ever remove a timer they put in.
Sounds like a good plan.
No, it won't, because there will still be the issue of whether the late-night passenger demand from the Bronx justifies the expense of a running 24-hour express service.
Concerning your topic however, I think the MTA doesn't serve CPW local stations too well because of lack of demand for it, compared to say, the 1/9 or the A train farther uptown.
And I bet more people use 110th St on a Sunday morning than at any other time of the week.
Most people find the 1/9 to be quite dependable...and better than the majority of the lines in the whole system. You live only two avenue blocks from the 1/9 train. You won't get any sympathy from me.
Mr greenberger can comment better than me here, but the 1 really does not have very dependable service.
No. But what I SHOULD have the right to expect is that the MTA wont cater to a miniscule amount of riders who would be benefited byu the D running express, while many more people would save more time if the train didnt run express. The CPW express is unnecessary on nights, and the CPW local needs more service on weekends, when the D is empty. There is no downside to running them local.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
I know all about long commutes. I know all about long commutes on locals. The solution, if you manage to get a seat (which is rarely a problem on the night/weekend D)? Bring something to do. I wrote up my lecture notes every morning on the Q train.
When the AA (or K) ran, Fulton Street only had express service during rush hours (aside from the JFK Express). You'd rather see Fulton Street with no express service except rush hours than CPW with "only" one express on weekends? Similarly, you suggest that local passengers take the bus or walk so that Concourse passengers aren't delayed three minutes. Taking the bus and walking obviously add more than three minutes to any trip longer than a few blocks. Why do you hold Concourse passengers' time in such greater accord than anybody else's?
Passengers at six Concourse stations have no peak-direction rush hour CPW express service without transferring at 145th/125th (or Tremont, in one case). Somehow they can manage to either stay on the local or transfer to an express later on during rush hours -- yet on weekends it can't even be considered?
Why should I get my politicians involved? Politicians don't know anything about the subway. The subway system is a system, and politicians don't care about systemwide issues. I don't want my borough to beat up on your (former) borough -- I simply want NYCT to implement whatever service pattern best serves all of its passengers. If that optimal service pattern turns out to Concourse trains running local on CPW some of the time, then Concourse passengers have no right to complain.
But to those that ride less than at least half the run, well ... those of us who had to endure an hour each way, the emotion of "gird it up" comes to mind. Nothing personal towards anyone, just trying to explain why there's resistance to the idea ... when I found out after leaving the city that I could get downtown from POUGHKEEPSIE in less time, I never regretted moving out again. :)
Running time from Chambers to 96th via local is only 22 minutes to begin with. How could the express possibly be 30 minutes faster?
Of course, you find these express theories of motion less persuasive when you're stuck on a platform seeing empty express trains rumble by. Personally, I think the MTA and psychology departments at our fine local universities should do studies of what express riders think on how much time they save and how much time their ride costs local riders. Then they should forward the results to the fine physics departments to figure out how impossible under our current understanding of the universe the numbers generated are. I'm only half-joking when I say this too.
Increase local service. I think that's the way to go. Everyone knows how pathetic the C train is. It's got a bad reputation, and for a good reason...horrible and incosistent headways. It definitely needs improving...why not ask for it?
Make every other C train run from 168th st to Chambers St (share terminal with the E as it has done so in the past.). Have 5 minute headways, and local service to Euclid is still every 10 minutes. If there was a way to turn trains around, I'd say turn at 125th st, C service does not have to be at 5 minute headways above this station.
Simple, and the D can remain express on weekends. Late nights, the D can run local from 59th st to 125th st.
" D to 205th st. Next stop 96th st. Stand clear " :-)
Different circumstances, the B is covered by the Q in Brooklyn, A/C/D/F/V, in Manhattan and D in the Bronx. The C is ONLY covered by the A in Brooklyn, A/D/E in Manhattan, and A in upper Manhattan. The A has to run local because there is nothing else running local(except for E in lower Manhattan).
So what you are saying is that 135th st is a nearly empty station and the D must stop there to use whatever capacity it has.
If the C ran full 10 car sets (instead of the current 8 cars), you are basically adding 1 TPH alone. Run the C every 6 to 8 minutes at 10 car sets and you don't need the D on CPW local tracks.
2. The C needs a HELL OF A LOT more than 1 extra TPH from 59-125, And adding 2 cars per train would not add any TPH, it would only add more capacity.
3. Anything that makes stops from 59-125 should also stop at 135 because waiting for the correct line up/merging delays would take much longer than just stopping there.
4. Concourse D service is almost empty(125-59) and there are more people on EACH CPW platform(at least 96-72)then are on EACH D train.
5. Only concourse passengers going to 59/8, 53/7. 50/6, 42/6, asnd 34/6 are helped by the D running express, and only save 2-4 minutes at that.
6. Most CPW local passengers are going to 6th avenue. With the current configuration they would save 10-30 minutes on weekends and 20-40 minutes during late nights
7. Saving 2 minutes on a train is much less important than saving 40 minutes waiting on a platform
Queens Blvd local passengers have no direct access to 6th Ave service on weekends, why not them? Why should CPW customers be treated better?
Why should the D stop at empty stations like 110th/CP, 116th and 135th streets? Might as well bypass them on the local track
Your justification to run the D as a local on weekends, as well as nights, does not allievate the problem with the direct need for 2 services on near empty stations. For years, until NYCT finally woke up and smelled the coffee a couple of years ago, the S/B side of 135th st had BOTH ends staffed F/T. What a waste of resources.
The D should run local at night as is standard practice with other late night subway lines. The Q should run local from 57/7 to Prince St, when the R is not running in Manhattan. If you want more efficient switching, then make the A local in Manhattan on weekends so it would not interfere with the D at all.
When Stillwell re-opens to all lines, send the B there and run it at night as a shuttle, since the B will be running "all times" the D can run express "all times"
lol
However, no one mentioned 14th st and 23rd St as 6th Ave local stops on the D. However it's no sense for the D to switch over at 34th st and back at West 4th st, so let is run express, even late night.
With all that said, it looks like the big problem is that there ISN'T ENOUGH LOCAL SERVICE! They need to make the local C more consistent, or more frequent. That would solve any problems...PERIOD.
You want express service late at night then bitch to the TA to keep an extra line running. However, I don't think that having an express under the current circumstances to save you 8 minutes justifies making other passengers wait longer for another train.
Ya know, the name calling is starting to wear a little thin. As David, Clayton and Lincoln have pointed out (thanks guys), my house is somewhere between four and seven miles (as the mass transit goes) from the nearest subway station. Depending on which route I take, I still end up at a local station - 86 St on the R or South Ferry on the 1 - so, yeah, expresses don't do much for me. Hell, even when I lived in Brooklyn, expresses did nothing for me, since I lived on the F.
From Brooklyn, my two most traveled routes were to my High School at E. 84 St (Park & Madison) and to a theatre I worked at on W. 103 & Riverside. High School was the F to Jay St, the A/C to B'way/Nassau then the 4/5 to 86 St - the only way, since the transfer at Lex/51 didn't exist at that time. To the theatre was the F to Jay, the A/C to 59, then the 1. Coming home from there, I would have loved it if the 2 ran local, since I could have walked to 96 and taken whatever came first to 59.
Nowadays, my job (making these overgrown tin cans go places so everyone can whine) requires me to be at one end or another of a line, so I've given up on mass transit and just drive - cuts my commuting time from 90 or more minutes to 21. Try it - I highly recommend it. If you can't for whatever reason, then I suggest you either leave earlier to ensure you catch your bus or just shut up and deal with it (or get a job at Transit in Scheduling and fix it).
No. You can all walk to 96 St or 72 St and take the 1 express or the 2 express.
Running D local nights and weekends would be a huge improvement in service along CPW. More local trains along CPW offer an advantage that outweighs the additional 8-10 minutes maximum running time.
Granted, if you are commuting Kingsbridge Road to Sheepshead Bay, that extra 10 minutes will be a burden, but what percentage of riders make that commute compared to the volume of shorter-haul trips?
And it is a benefit not only for the so-called wealthy Manhattanites who want to go downtown but for Bronx residents going uptown. The Museum of Natural History draws families from all over the city on weekends. The platforms at 81 Street are always crowded. A lot of working people at places like Mt. Sinai Hospital take the crosstown bus from the Upper East Side to the CPW line.
And there are many public housing projects along Columbus Ave, Manhattan Ave, Amsterdam Ave, and Frederick Douglass Blvd, all the way up to 125 Street whose residents are people of limited income. All of these populations would benefit greatly from night/weekend D local service.
The population density on the West Side is considerably higher than that of the upper Bronx which also jusrifies increased service.
BTW, anyone living on Columbus or Amsterdam can EASILY walk to Broadway and take the 1/9. I have no sympathy for these people. It's only 2 avenue blocks at most...people living on 2nd, 1st, York avenue have it far worse. Even people living on CPW have a shorter walk to the 1/9 than people on 1st, York, and East End.
Granted, people living near 116th have a tougher time to walk to the 1/9. They would have my sympathy.
If you'd rather, tale the 1/9 to TS, tranfer to the N/W/R, and get off at Lex/59th, and walk to your destination.
The first solution is probably best, and actually not a horrible commute. It could be better, but it could be a LOT worse.
2. They don't have any other option...5+ minutes in time saved for their only subway line is good for them. Especially since many people have to travel somewhat out of their way to get to their platform in the first place. Not to mention the fact that it's at little cost to you. You have at most a 10 minute headway on the local C.
3. You have many other options. Take the 1/9. Take the bus. The commute I mentioned isn't that bad, and is certainly manageable. It's not the end of the world to commute the way I mentioned. At least you have a viable other way of commuting. These D riders don't.
4. The headways for the local C on weekends is 10 minutes scheduled. Your exageration of 40 minute headways are silly. If your wait really is 40 minutes, it looks like you're suffering from the MTAs mismanagement of the C line. You need to complain to the MTA about lousy C service so they can run it according to your schedule. 1 TEN minute headway...that's the schedule. I don't see why anybody can really complain about that.
2/4. While the C may be scheduled to have a 10 minute headway, in practice that doesnt work out. I have seen 3 C trains run express before a train finally ran local. D trains are ALMOST ALWAYS mostly empty, on average 5 people per car. The C is often crush loaded, and rarely is there room for everyone to sit. EVEN WHEN THE C IS ON TIME, THE TRAINS ARE 2-3TIMES MORE CROWDED THAN THE D. There is no valid reason for the D to run express.
3.The D riders have a just as viable of an alternative, the 4. sure the 4 doesnt go to the same place as the Ddoes, but the 1 doesntr go the same place as the B/C does either.
Again, I repeat myself, why should the Empty D trains bypass the used stations on CPW when it would only cost them 2-3 minutes to stop, and save MANY MORE PEOPLE than are helped by the express run's more time.
Pure, unadulterated, bullshit. I ride the D every day at 0300/M-F and each car has approx. 10-20 people.
>>>The D riders have a just as viable of an alternative, the 4.<<<
This statement is just plain ridiculous.
Peace,
ANDEE
FWIW, when I lived in the land of the D train (and had *no* other choice once the Third Avenue El came down), I found the ride time to be SO pathetic, that if it wasn't RUSH HOUR service, I'd just take my CAR into the city, park it somewhere in the 70's between Columbus and Amsterdam and take the IRT - at night I'd just go wherever the hell I wanted and parked anywhere I wanted. Picture of my white Mustang can be seen in this shot of the 3rd Avenue el at 204th, behind the black Rambler.
Since things have gotten worse and a lot more folks in the Bronx have cars than when I left, I suggest that if the D train is hijacked to the upper west side that, in the name of "homeland defense" we just take our old stovepipes and belch exhaust circling Columbus and Amsterdam in search of that primo space by the IRT. After all, the trust old tailpipe belcher is "mass transit" up here - I'd feel no pangs of guilt.
I say "raise their rent." :)
Peace,
ANDEE
This statement is just plain ridiculous."
As it was meant to be. The 4 Is JUST as valid of a substitute to the D is as the 1 is to the B. Neither are decent substitutes.
Peace,
Andee
From the Fall, 2003 B Division Timetables, 2 samples of each:
D C.P.W EXPRESS
125 ST. 59 ST.
LEAVE LEAVE
0049+ 0057+ = 8 min
0109+ 0117+ = 8 min
A C.P.W. LOCAL
125 ST. 59 ST.
LEAVE LEAVE.
0046 0059 = 13 min
0106 0119 = 13 min
A difference of 5 minutes exactly. 5 minutes isn't the end of the world folks. If it is to you, you might need to learn to manage your time better.
If it costs you to miss a bus, then by all means, CONTACT THE TA. Get your community involved. At 1 hour headways there's certainly room to adjust a schedule by 5 minutes. However, nobody complains about it, or as is probably the case, no one knows their bus' schedule so they don't realize they just missed the bus. If they get enough complaints, and enough people get involved, something will be done. That's why certain stations, no matter how late a train is, does not get skipped in a battery run. The community got involved and said "enough of this bullsh*t." Believe me, it works. People just have it set in their mind that complaining to the TA doesn't work, so they don't do it, and the problem continues to exist.
> 2. You have at most a 10 minute headway on the local C.
This discussion was about the late night service, wasn't it? There's no C service late nights, and there's no 10 minute headways.
Yes The QB line is too long to have to take a local to the end.
During G.O.'s you should see the people when we get to 71st Continental (Manhattan bound) on the local track. Everyone be ready to get out and take an express train. People hold the door and ask the conductor. Then finally when they realize they have no choice they get back on the train and we pull off.
Just this Saturday on the way to Manhattan I was dozing off, and woke up we were on the local track at 71st Continental, its really a scary thing to know that the train is going local to Manhattan (or vice versa). At least if they say Express after Roosevelt (in either direction) it subdues the anxiety.
LOL, not LITERALLY scary, it was an hyperbole.
The APPEARANCE of a D train is considered a "work of God" ... a LITERAL *MIRACLE* ... look! Up in the sky! It's a bird, it's a plane, It's a 32! It's a BING-BONG! WOW! It's a PHUCKING D TRAIN! HAZZAH! (grin)
Been there, done that, watch the phucking closing doors or I'll rip yer phucking leg off. Ghas, how I miss the flavor! Heh. Folks in midtown will NEVER appreciate the MIRACLE of headlights on the Concourse (TRULY a RARE treat). :(
However point well taken about the Weekends the D Line should stay Express. I see the C Line ridership on weekends and the C Line handles it well. You may not get a seat but your not jammed in the car like a #6 train on a Saturday afternoon.
Only if it gets held at 59th St to wait for a C Train.
That is my alternate home line to the 2 and 5 Lines and I'd rather deal with the continual G.O.s on the 2 and 5 then catch the D. It's unreliable, always late and rather slow. I do better even catching the Bx1 and Bx2 buses half the time.
The TA SERIOUSLY needs to take a hard look at this line. But again I'll really save my bitching until the February changes, If nothing changes by then, the again the TA REALLY needs to take a hard look.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
TransiTALK Transportation Media Group, LLC
:)
Okay...but that still doesn't say much for the city. Even with all the new lines there. The trains should have kept running. They are as essential as any utility is in a city.
Somehow in NYC, it is never decided to shut down the entire system. Bits and pieces, sure, but could you imagine the entire system, including all the underground parts, closing in the middle of the day, amidst announcements that nobody should be going anywhere anyway?
I went home, on the 7 train, at 3:00 P.M. on 9/11. It wasn't shut down the entire day.
They USED TO have JUST the "AA" or the "K" ... what *whiners!* :(
They've got DOUBLE the service they used to then. Anybody mess with the D train, Unca Selkoik come down with MUSKET! *USE* musket. :)
B & C extended when A & D no running
Solved - D still EXPRESS
With my rules there is no skip-stop service.
It was only to show my CPW/Norwood/Inwood service
(Other than that, it's GREAT!)
I like more:
(C) 205-Lefferts (day: BPB-Lefferts)
(A) Euclid-FR/RP (day: 207-FR/RP)
But no direct from Howard Beach to Manhattan so the upper ones are better
At least you're not as frothy as some compatriots, but the REAL problme is there ain't as many 168-WTC chochos (sp? you BETCHA) as may be deemed necessary for les whiners du jour ... DAMN! Every time THIS Bronx boy got off a train in midtown, I'd HOOF IT *ANYWHERE* I needed to go, from 14th and Van Dam to East 5th and Avenue D ... THEN back up to "Elaine's" and over to the piers ... If I had the *MITZVAHS* to live near 79th and BREADWAY, I'd kiss tucus for the ability to eeven BREATHE hear Zabar's, much less be ADMITTED. :)
Geez ... Kvetzels ... :(
Yes, run expresses late nights. Manhattan Island is made for such services. Ridership patterns will adapt to intelligently thought out schedule coordination. That level of coordination is feasible. It's the lack of confidence on the part of the system managers that their workload can be handled more efficiently which leads to the assumption of "there's no need for it".
People still need to get where they're going to the fastest they can at night...do you see drivers slowing down at night on highways? And do current operating patterns, that is to say, are these patterns written in stone or something? Shucks. Your rationale seems based upon accepting them as ever extant, never changing.
For example, let's say the local and the express had late night 20 minute headways. After they killed the express, the local will still have 20 minute headways. Nothing is improved. All you've done is make the express riders pissed. There is no way in hell the MTA would increase the late night headways of the locals just b/c they killed the late night expresses.
Really not decrease???
Peace,
ANDEE
Posting new topic: "BRT for NYC?" ...
As Sean Connery asked this classic question in a classic 007 film: "Do you expect me to talk?"
Anyway, I will ride with you back from the first N over the Bridge.
So i would extend for example on Q Blvd the R to 179, the G to JC and
terminate E at QP and F at 21St. To avoid while the day the switching of
the C from the local track to the express track at Canal the C would run
to WTC, the E to Euclid and as additional service a K JC-WTC, cos
i think Fulton doesn't need E's 15 TPH.
I don't add serivce, i cut back the expresses and extend the local
lines. The schedule can be made, that the E departs to Manhattan one
minute after the G passed QP. 179 will get Bway instead of 6 Av service;
transfer at Herald. So between QP and Briarwood would be a 10 minute
headaway local service with two 24/7 local lines. No more confusing of
the service change of the E between express and local at day and night.
Nights and Weekends
C 168 to WTC via CPW Local
B 145 to 2nd Avenue via CPW Local
With that you get service every 10 minutes (can't complain!)
On the Flip Side
A 207 to Far Rock via CPW Exp, Loc in Bklyn, and Qns
D 205 to to Coney Island via CPW Exp, Loc in Bklyn and Bronx
You get frequent service, at nights, more than any other line except Broadway and I mean Broadway and 7th Avenue Lines!
So remember, with in 5 blocks CPW people have 4 services! the 1,2,C, and B lines. More service than even the Queens Boulevard Line! If you complain now, then CPW people are just spoiled brats.
With that you get service every 10 minutes (can't complain!)
Fulton Street riders won't be to happy with you...
A 207 to Far Rock via CPW Exp, Loc in Bklyn, and Qns
People at 104, 111, and Lefferts will likely murder you for taking away their night and weekend service.
I assume that rules #1 and #3 are tied together, because the Lexington Avenue line has 2 express services and 1 local service. Even though the local has the same service as the expresses combined. Similar situation exists with 7th Avenue/Broadway IRT as well on weekends
----
There should be NO express service if the corresponding local line has less than 10 TPH.
----
Unless many of those local stops have low ridership, it depends
for a roster see :
http://www.angelfire.com/ak/hekurudha/AMTK/AMTKroster.htm
But I did spot a laminated 8 x 12 paper sign scotch taped to a door window stating " THIS TRAIN FOR JAMAICA".
Place your bets on when we'll see retrofitted side LED signs that can be seen when a train pulls into a station.
If so, possible sign designations:
JAMAICA
HOWARD BEACH
TERMINALS 1 - 8 ONLY
NOT IN SERVICE
I guess people who normally ride subways look at the train rather than up. Then why the scotch taped sign ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Was this a National City Lines mission to have them painted in a safety yellow scheme before abandonment ? Just wondering why these companies chose yellow instead of traditional traction colors as paint schemes.
Also, was Connecticut Company swallowed up by NCL ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I thought LA went from yellow to lime. I also think that the Shaker Heights Cars were yellow to start with and later changed. Please correct me if I am wrong
Paul Jones, the Mayor of Shaker Heights, admired the colors used by Cincinatti, so when Shaker's new Pullman PCC's arrived in 1946, they duplicated the Cincinatti paint scheme exactly, even to the three green stripes. After Jones's death in 1959, the stripes were reduced to a single green stripe.
The cars kept the SHRT colors until the RTA took over.
Public Service used yellow for years. When they failed to convert the City Subway to a new generation of all-service vehicles in 1950, they bought 30 used PCC's from Minneapolis and painted them in the grey & blue bus colors.
LA changed from the NCL scheme to the mint body, pine window stripe and white roof when LAMTA took over.
Frank Hicks
I always thought it was a company color. Perhaps it was because white got dirty very easily.
Yearly Calendars are sold with pictures of LA streetcars and Pacific Electric cars. It is called "Red Cars, Yellow Cars".
Los Angeles under NCL painted cars in the NCL scheme until LAMTA took the system. LAMTA used a mint green body, green window stripe and white roof on everything.
Connco never fell under NCL control.
This is for fire trucks, as we know most fire trucks are red, however other departments also use Yellow or White.
I think there was a wave back "then" where RED was a hard color to see at night. So some departments changed to a yellow scheme or white scheme with a colored stripe.
Not sure if this is the answer, but it sorta fits lol.
I would personally extended the (V) to Stillwell as a Culver Local, and make the (F) run express in Brooklyn.
Click here and here to see details.
-Julian
There are also passenger numbers in the same threads about why there hasn’t been an express service for some time.
Just because we railfans want to see revenue service over every foot of track (I’m personally rooting for the Christie Street cut!) doesn’t mean the TA finds it worthwhile!
If they built it, why not use it?
(I'd personally like Broadway IRT peak direction express in the Bronx and upper Manhattan, as well as peak direction (4) train service in the Bronx)
It's not realistically feasible until the Bergen Interlocking is rebuilt. Besides that, there isn't enough rolling stock available, unless you curtail service someplace else.
Someone else posted that the Church Avenue Yard has to be fixed up too.
(Besides that, there isn't enough rolling stock available, unless you curtail service someplace else.)
One option is to run seven Fs local to Church along with the G, and eight Fs to Coney Island and non-stop from Church to Jay. Those further out would get a longer wait, but a faster ride. Those closer in would get a longer wait for a change to Manhattan, but they might get a seat, and those beyond 4th Avenue would gain the option of taking the G. With the rolling stock savings from running fewer trains down to Kings Highway and diminished running times from Church to Jay, you could just about extend the G.
Another alternative it turn the F at Church weekdays, and run the V to Coney Island. You could run as many Fs as you needed and could afford and turn the rest at 2nd Avenue.
Running the V local to Church along with the G, and the F express is the best solution for the customers, but the rolling stock is unlikely to be available and the cost would be high.
Yes! Combine the M and V!!!
Testing track? Garbage train express? ;)
The tracks are also used every night to store overnight various layups of E, F, R, and V trains.
I caught use of a comma instead of a semicolon, two missing commas, and a dangling preposition.
How about...
If the G service terminated there, it would cause congestion for both lines.
Changes:
(C) 8th Ave Local / Culver Express to Kings Highway 16/5
(V) 6th Ave Local to Chambers WTC 16/5 (C) other times.
(F) 6th Ave Local / Culver Local to Coney Island.
(G) Bklyn-Queens Crosstown to Church Avenue.
Why?
1. Provide 6th Avenue with direct access to downtown.
2. Maintains EXACT same (G) and (F) service to stations now served by these services... to do otherwise would result in massive complaints related to reductions in service.
3. Switching arrangements at Kings Highway require that that be the express terminal, while local trains continue on to Coney Island. See... the Brighton Line does it the same way. The history of the Culver is such that express (subway -steel cars) were turned at Kings Highway, while the more numerous wooden cars (from the 5th Avenue El) went all the way to Coney Island.
4. Smith-9th CANNOT be used as a (G) terminal if there is an express service that is also using those tracks, the (G) must continue to Church Avenue. Church does not have the switch capacity to turn two services because of switch positionings and distances between the station and the switches.
5. My solution gives Culver riders access to two different Manhattan lines, (6th Ave and 8th Ave) and provides that the added express service does not diminish any existing service to any station, but is only an additional service.
6. There are flying crossovers that permit this 6th/8th Avenue swap just south of W 4th Street, but only on the Local Tracks.
7. By making the (E) train an EXPRESS on 8th Avenue (as it once was!) it eliminates the (C) > (A) merge at Chambers Street, which presently is a bottleneck. Admittedly the bottle neck is moved to 50th Street where the (E) would then join the (A), but there has to be a merge *somewhere* and this would free up rush hour traffic leaving Manhattan, and that is a worthy improvement. It allows all traffic on the 8th Avenue Express tracks to use the Cranberry Tunnel.
That is how *I* would do it.
But under no circumstances will the (F) ever be the express on the Culver.
Elias
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
No no no no...you're twisting my position here. I don't know what this "dollar coin" thing you're talking about is, but I'm referring to the Universal Transit and Parking Token. It was implemented by the government to allow transit agencies to cut costs by eliminating their own propritary tokens. The UTPT's are good for one dollar's worth of parking and transit each. Just like stamps are only available from and good at the Port Office, UTPT's are only available from and good at transit systems. Pshaw...dollar coin, that's just wacky.
Everybody knows that a dollar coin will only lead to increased vending machine prices and fiscal irrisponsibility on the part of consumers. You know, bills actually have value, coins are just throw away change. What would that say about the comparative value of the dollar. It'd be like we would be admitting that our glorious currency is just like all those other, crapy, world currencies.
But I do agree.............dollar bills are easier on the wallet.
He hit it right on the head.
The MTA in Baltimore was (and may still be) the largest user of dollar coins in the Richmond Federal Reserve District due to the use of them in subway and Light Rail fare machines.
Outside of the MTA, forget it. Wal-Mart, Safeway and Super Fresh food stores tried dispensing golden dollars as change for $1 and over - the coins went over like the proverbial lead balloon. So, none of the three do any more.
I do want to point out that the soda machine at BSM takes UTPTs and dollar bills for a purchase. The price per can is 75 cents, so insert a UTPT or a dollar bill, get the soda and a quarter.
The only way to get the dollar coin in wide circulation and use is kill the dollar bill.
Treasury and Congress are a bunch of wimps on the dollar issue. WMATA won't take them because they are a pain to handle. I suspect you could drop three of them and 20 cents in a MTA bus farebox and the little thermal printer will spit a day pass out, but I've never seen a dollar coin being used, most likely due to the general unavailablity.
The Dollar coin - a great idea. The application - flawed.
What is your problem with the dollar bill?? They are easy to carry and they make you think when you spend them. When I was in France the price of everything in vending machines was 10 Francs and there happened to be a 10 Franc coin. Since it was only one coin I was spending them like water until it dawned upon me that I was loosing about 2 bucks a shot.
Bills make one stop and think...hey, is this really worth it.
I have nothing against the dollar bill, but the current Treasury attitude about the coin vs. the bill is way off base and makes no sense at all. It's like they really don't want a dollar coin but won't come out and say that. Treasury has blown the introduction of a dollar coin twice.
The SBA dollar was flawed, the coin was too close to the quarter in appearence and nobody knew where to put it in cash registers.
The coin also gave the blind fits, as the design made it almost impossible for a blind person to pick an SBA out of a pile of other coins.
Back to the drawing board.
Realizing that they blew it the first time, Treasury did exactly what they should have done. They came us with a new design, enlisted the National Federation of the Blind to help make the new coin easily usable by everyone. And, unlike the Susan B, they said the bill would be removed from circulation. It would still be valid, new ones would not be printed and the bills would be removed as they came back to the Federal Reserve.
Then Treasury reversed themselves. The dollar bill would stay in ciruclation. A wrong move.
One note: the coin is attractive, but does not wear well. The coin holds up fine, but the metal used tarnishes very quickly and results in a coin that is a dull browish color in use.
The basic problem with the current thinking is that people in general don't like major changes in their life. Dump the dollar bill and now people have to change something they've done all their lives and now have to change their way of doing things. Bills sit neatly in your wallet, coinage goes in a pocket, or a coin purse.
It's not a life-changing event.
Fact: average life of a coin is 60 to 75 years. Average life of a dollar bill is 42 days.
I have nothing against the dollar bill, but the current Treasury attitude about the coin vs. the bill is way off base and makes no sense at all. It's like they really don't want a dollar coin but won't come out and say that. Treasury has blown the introduction of a dollar coin twice.
You seem to be of the mind that in the end there can be only one. This is why I have embraced the UTPT concept. Right now, just about the only sort of vending machine where you stick in large(er) bills and need large amounts of change are in transit and parking and at the post office. We use our dollar bills for normal transactions and the UTPT's for Parking and Transit. Frankly, I think more turnstyles should be upgraded to accept UTPT's, just like with PATH.
Different currency for different uses...I just insist on being honest about the differance.
Regarding the lifetimes of the bill, so what. Wealthy citizens and corporations get all sorts of perks from the government. Why can't the average joe get a little art in his wallet. Sheesh, they've ruined all the rest of the currency.
Been a while since you've purchased a bottle of pop from a machine, isn't it? $1.35 at my office ($1.50 for Snapple or Yoo-Hoo, $1.75 for a Starbucks iced coffee), so the dollar coins (which the machine accepts) come in quite handy. And the larger candy bars run $1.25 in the adjacent machine (which doesn't take the dollar coins, and rarely takes dollar bills either because the bill receiver is always full). Even canned pop is a buck in some places now. Speaking of which (and drifting farther off topic), we've discovered that hotel pop machines are often priced differently on different floors. One example: when we were checking in to a hotel in Richmond last October, we ended up being upgraded to a suite after I mentioned that we would be there over our wedding anniversary. Pop on that floor, where the nicest rooms were, was $1.00. One floor down (where we would otherwise have been) the pop was 75 cents, and when we inadvertently ended up riding down to the basement level (normally employees only) rather than the lobby we noticed the pop machine there (right opposite the elevator) was priced at 60 cents. And we've seen this elsewhere before.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yup, I've never purchased pop from a machine.
I buy soda. :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
No its a legal issue. ALL of the coinage and paper currency SAYS lefal ...good for all... As long as the Fed Gov ALLOWS either private or public entities to refuse acceptance of same the dollar coins, pennies etc, not to mention $50's and $100's will be hard to spend. In my view, either the Feds should insist on universal acceptance.
You now get around to giving up the identity of mister big.
The WMATA fare card vender were designed before the Susan B Anthony dollar coin was issued by the United States Mint. Funny thing is the coin excepting mechanism on these machines are probably the only part of the vender that have not been upgraded to except newer or larger value currency. The coin mechanism only excepts nickels, dimes, quarters and half dollars. Change is dispensed from separate canisters as either quarters or nickels. The first generation Cubic Western venders would only except one and five dollar notes. The present generation vender now except one, five, ten and twenty dollar notes. Both new and old design.
We have a coincidence here. I visited my friendly neighborhood M&T Bank in Snow Hill Maryland this afternoon (Actually I was there to pickup the inter office mail and proof to deliver to Baltimore) to get some of these coins so that I could use them at the toll gate on the William Preston Land Bridge over the Chesapeake Bay in Annapolis Maryland. Normally I use commuter tickets but I will be two tickets short before I can get to the sales office on Saturday morning to purchase another ticket book.
John
PATCO's fare system existed way before the SBAD went into circulation and when the SBAD came out they quickly embraced it as they realized it was easier than rigging their machines to accept bills. So that excuse dosen't hold any weight.
Hay, I’m not making excuses for WMATA, I’m only telling you the history and evolution of the farecard vender. Hell I don’t know if the subject of upgrading the coin mechanism to except the dollar coins in the farecard venders was ever discussed by the WMATA Board of Directors. They have discussed just about every other minor thing that in my opinion could have been handled at a different level.
John
Mark
US Mint coin specifications are here.
The buses accept dollar coins but I don't know if the new fareboxes will.
What do you need tokens with a value of $1 for when there are perfectly fine $1 coins?
The point is that due to their current usage profile they are essentially UTPT's. I am showing how dollar coins are a joke and should not be thought of as real currency.
Plus you can use $1 coins for paying for anything under the (American) sun (same with half dollar coins and $2 bills - get some from your bank and have fun with your local cashier).
In theory you can use them as legal tender, but people give you nasty looks as they try to find a place in the register to put the lousey things before just sticking them under the tray with the large bills. Then, when your back is turned they spit in your food.
Everything the gov't wants to be 'currency' is currency, or rather: Legal tender - clam shells, perls, used underwear or fake golden round metal plates with the portrait of an Indian woman. I'm not an expert in American law, but I'm sure that you cannot reject receiving a $1 coin as change, and if the Fed were to stop issuing $1 bills (and $2s), you'd be forced to use them. Of course you could just use $5 worth of quarters if you wish, or half dollars (try it, it's fun - you can tell the cashiers what it is...maybe they'll believe it when you tell them it's the new $10 coin :D).
Other than that, I agree with the person (can't look up the name right now) who pointed out that each and every other [civilized] country uses coins worth more than U.S.$1. There are 1 and 2 Euro coins ($1.26 and $2.52, respectively), 1 and 2 pounds Sterling coins in the UK ($1.83 and $3.66), 500 Yen coins in Japan (=$4.71), $1 and $2 Canadian and Australian coins (too lazy to check the exchange rates now). Australia, CAnada and England all abandoned their $1 or 1 pound bills a long time ago, and life went on.
It was me. Maybe others too.
"Australian coins (too lazy to check the exchange rates now)"
$AU1 approx = $US0.75; $AU2 approx = $US1.50
Strangely the $AU2 coin is smaller than the $AU1, very confusing for visitors.
New Zealand too: $NZ1 approx = $0.60; $NZ2 approx = $US1.20
In New Zealand's case, the sizes of the $NZ1 and $NZ2 coins are the logical way round.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Not quite. The UK is metricated in only a half-assed sort of way. We buy things in litres and metres, our nuts and bolts and other equipment are metric, but our signposts are still in miles - and so (to keep this on topic) are the mileposts on railway lines. And draft beer in pubs in still in pints. Fruit and vegetables sold loose on street markets are supposed to be priced in kilograms first, and pounds & ounces afterwards if at all, but customers still ask for them in pounds, and occasionally some officious police officer (to general ridicule) prosecutes a market trader for having their signs up in pounds only.....
Everything else is still sold in the traditional "English" easurements.
Packaging of products is bi-measured, as it tends to be sold in Canada. Cars have a lot of metric in them, but wheels and tires are in inches everywhere, due to America's automobile manufactuing power.
My car, which happens to have an electronic dashboard, can display speed and distance traveled in metric. It's kinda neat to blast through the Fort McHenry Tunnel on I-95 at 100 KPH. (Which just happens to be 66 MPH, one above the posted 65 MPH limit.)
If that's what it's telling you, you need to have it corrected. 100 kph is about 62 mph. (We have a digital dash in our Windstar, which comes in quite handy when my wife goes to family reunions in Canada.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There is another metrification creeping in: the 20 oz soda bottle is being replaced with a 500ml bottle, in the “looks the same, but is really a bit smaller” category of inflationary marketing!
Bottled water is also metric, So are drugs (legal and otherwise).
However, I do not expect the typical American attitude to its money to change. Half-dollar and dollar coins will continue to be rejected by the US public, $2 bills will continue never to be seen, and everyone will continue to collect mountains of valueless pennies in their underwear drawers.... Australia and New Zealand have no coin smaller than 5c; if there is an odd number of cents on a bill, no problem if you are paying with plastic or a cheque, and if you pay with cash the EPOS terminal (aka cash register) rounds the bill up or down to the nearest 5c accordingly. Jersey Mike would have a nervous breakdown.....
Ben F. Schumin :-)
The new 20 sucks too, IMHO. Why does our money have to look like it was designed by a government agency? Can't they get ANYONE decent to come up with this stuff?
That's because it is. :-)
I saw a thing on the History Channel about money, though, and they actually do have some highly-trained artists and engravers whose full-time job it is to design new money. Interesting, indeed.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
All design changes are. The Federal Reserve (or, for coins, the United States Mint) proposes, but Congress must approve. In the case of the new nickels for 2004, Congress told the Mint to prepare a new design commemorating the Lewis and Clark expedition; the Mint ultimately proposed several, and Congress selected two.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
While I was waiting for the local R to 71st, all of the sudden some "liquid" poured down from the pipe above. The funny thing is everyone starts staring at it. The "liquid" keep pouring down for abut 30 sec and finally ended with some apparently hot "liquid" (because it steams...like the tunnel vent. at downtown) and a rat running toward it!
man...what a "pleasant sight" for my commute ;-)
/wayne\
Robert
If you just tried to block it all then eventually the water would find a way in, the plastic liner would develop a hole or something and water would intrude. Since it can be safely assumed that water will eventually intrude into the hole, requiring the use of a pump or something to remove the intruding water, why not just skip the plastic liner and go straight for the pump. And Pigs is right, letting the water leak in relieves pressure, the water pressure would slowly squeeze the structure until it leaked in through the cracks in the structure anyway. Water removal by way of a sump pump under the building is extremely common, just about every home has a sump pump, while most buildings have some sort of massive proxy of those small units. It must be remembered that water doesn't just intrude via leakage, but also can accumulate from humidity condensing out of the air, runnoff down driveways, and many other sources, all of which must be pumped at least into the sewers.
It's another one of those cases where you can't win for losing. If President Bush does Thing A, he's wrong. If he does the opposite, he's also wrong. Harrummph!
Aren't you going to read the fine print in the legislation before passing judgement?
But it sure is going to put a hurting on municipalities, and not JUST for rail ... but hey ... when is a tax cut not a tax cut? When the politician's lips are STILL moving.
Corrupt, corrupt, corrupt.
The use of lease-buy back schemes was pioneered by Richard Ravitch, when he was MTA chairman. It helped finance the purchases of the R62's and R68's, as well as the bus fleet.
The question should be not whether leasing/depreciation is a scam but rather who should be able to benefit from it. Should the financial benefits limited to private corporations or should they be shared by everybody. I'll be willing to bet that once this proposal gets through Congress that only local governments and not-for-profits would be excluded. :-)
By voting the national neocon libertarians out of office.
Yes. And he sent the bill to my two children.
Less aid to States means less aid to municipalities which means that property taxes (the only municipal tax base for most of them, NYC/Yonkers excepted) are hiked to pay for education, which is the lion’s share of local budgets. “I’m sorry Mr Smith, but we are not holding classes this year due to budget cuts–Mary and Jimmy will just have to stay home!”
About time we really appreciated TANSTAAFL!
Links to VERY truncated versions of the announcements...
33 St - Rawson
40 St - Lowery
46 St - Bliss
No idea if the rest of the C/Rs do the same.
The world's first beat poetry musical Subway Train arrives in New York
City on February 4, 2004.
Subway Train is a peek into the life and minds of three young poets told
through poetry, music, acting, and imagination. The script is comprised
of the writers' journal entries that capture private observations and
feelings experienced while riding the train. Griff Foxely from
getunderground.com says, "Subway Train puts a stethoscope to the pulse of
the bustling masses and uncovers emotional landscapes not readily
available in the everyday."
Don't miss this train. There will be two performances at 8:00pm and
10:30pm on February 4 at the Bowery Poetry Club, 308 Bowery (between
Bleecker and Houston, across from CBGB's). Take the F or V train to 2nd
Avenue, or the 6 train to Bleecker Street.
Phone (212)614-0505
www.bowerypoetry.com
Tickets available at the door. No drink minimum.
The cast of three poets are portrayed by Joshua Kobak, Katy Pfaffl, and
Mickey Fisher, with Yassmin Alers as the train conductor. The band is
comprised of Sean Dixon on drums, Danton Boller on upright bass, and Matt
Caplan on guitar.
For information visit www.subway-train.com
Sounds like "first night" will be the ONLY night, bub.
The world's first beat poetry musical Subway Train arrives in New York
City on February 4, 2004.
Subway Train is a peek into the life and minds of three young poets told
through poetry, music, acting, and imagination. The script is comprised
of the writers' journal entries that capture private observations and
feelings experienced while riding the train. Griff Foxely from
getunderground.com says, "Subway Train puts a stethoscope to the pulse of
the bustling masses and uncovers emotional landscapes not readily
available in the everyday."
Don't miss this train. There will be two performances at 8:00pm and
10:30pm on February 4 at the Bowery Poetry Club, 308 Bowery (between
Bleecker and Houston, across from CBGB's). Take the F or V train to 2nd
Avenue, or the 6 train to Bleecker Street.
Phone (212)614-0505
www.bowerypoetry.com
Tickets available at the door. No drink minimum.
The cast of three poets are portrayed by Joshua Kobak, Katy Pfaffl, and
Mickey Fisher, with Yassmin Alers as the train conductor. The band is
comprised of Sean Dixon on drums, Danton Boller on upright bass, and Matt
Caplan on guitar.
For information visit www.subway-train.com
Already can't wait to see the pics. Make sure you check out the shopping center extension at Delco Plaza. It's huge! Almost double the size.
#3 West End Jeff
Stripmap rollsigns!
Each train could be loaded with a bunch of different stripmaps on a rollsign next to the stripmap display. An IRT train might have:
(2),(4),(5) and (6) maps in the rollsign.
The signs would be controlled from the CR cab. The CR would punch a code in to get the desired map.
Would this work?
-Julian
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
I believe that the trains are programmed for all routes. I think that the changing of the strip map is as easy as changing the ads that are on that level.
As for transfers for reroutes on other lines, That's usually done by simply pasting over the older transfers.
As for adding a new station between two others, I'd think that they'd have to order new strip maps.
I don't think they exist any more. I think they've updated the entire fleet of R142A's. If there are ANY that still have the original programming, let me know on this thread.
o-Stripmap Rollsigns installed for all routes on that system (an (A) train would have all IND routes
o-The announcement people record these sound files:
This is...
All 400 odd stops
Transfer is available to the...
A
B
etc...
The next stop is...
Stand clear of the closing doors.
These sound bits would be stored in a library on the train. "Event handlers" would trigger them.
For example,
onTrainHeld: play "trainheld.wav"
onStop(13): play "stop13Atrain.wav"
etc...
Is that how it works now?
Thanks,
Julian
Almost certainly not. Whenever there are re-routes, it's fairly common that the conductor has to override the recorded announcements. Based on that, I'd say the system has nothing like the ideal level of flexibility that it ought to have.
To the contrary, the system appears to have hard-wired limitations that fall well short of all the routings that the track plant would support.
I'm pretty sure storage is a premium, and the tradeoff is that certain cars get certain sets of announcements to allow for higher-quality recordings... which is the overall point of the automatic announcements anyway. No sense in having 400 22 KHz sound files when in most cases you'll only be playing 25 of them.
Attention ladies and gentlemen, due to necessary track work, All
Uptown/Downtown
1,2, and 3/4, 5, and 6/whatever
trains will run
Express/Local
from
Station to Station.
For service to bypassed stations
Blank, Blank, and Blank,
Take this train to
Station
and transfer to a
Downtown/Uptown
#
Train.
So really, it wouldn't require that much extra memory--most of the things to be said are already in the system. I suppose it might get complicated to have the conductors programming these things in, though.
In the more recent programs, the women make most of the transfer announcements, and theirs are prerecorded, but Charlie Pellett's concatenative announcements are still there as a backup. I'm a bit annoyed that the prerecorded announcements are identical (or nearly identical; they introduce a grammatical error at a few stations) to their concatenative cousins when they could be more useful -- e.g., why announce "Transfer is available to the 4 and 5 trains" when "Transfer is available to the 4 and 5 express on the lower level" gives more information?
Another idea I had was to have a push button panel behind the curent LED cover with the strip map. When the map was installed, the maintence person would hit a button corresponding to the route map before installing it. For example, when putting on the cover for the 5, he would hit the button for the 5 train. Then, when the destination sign was set, the strip map program would check to make sure the button corresponded to the map installed, and if it wasn't correct, the "map not in use" message would come up.
Just reprint that section of sign. The sections would be modular, and easily replaced.
Just reprint that section of sign. The sections would be modular, and easily replaced.
(Yes, that is a real quote)
The train left the Grand Central Station
Bound for Washington, D.C.
But instead flew straight 'cross the ocean
For Vienna, Stockholm and Paris
Obviously, there are no trains leaving Grand Central for DC these days, as Amtrak's NEC trains stop only at Penn Station. My question is, was there ever a time, maybe way back when PRR and New York Central were fierce competitors that there was any sort of passenger service between Grand Central and DC? Just curious.
Mark
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
So why were you working with him? Are you in the music business?
Of course, on the topic of railfan rock stars, does everyone else know about Neil Young? If not, go here:
Take a Ride on Neil Young's Trains
Neil Young invented DCC?!
: )
Ain't all this arcane stuff on SubTalk fun?
Yeah, don't mind me - I *do* try to be on topic as often as possible, but few seem interested in what I'm into as far as rolling stock goes, and I just can't get excited about where the D train's going to go THIS year. Heh. But it's still fun hanging out with friends even if we bay at the moon ...
Did he sing Hound Dog or Blue Suede Shoes?
Mark
Oh, well, maybe. But it sits in the tunnel until 8:58.
It makes sense, since the DM's don't need the third rail until they're in the tunnel -- and by that time it isn't snow covered.
Do you know which train it was?
CG
V Line:
1) Extend it to Jamaica
2) Make it run Express
G Line:
Extend it to 71-Continental Avenue
If the V-Line ran to Jamaica Center (or to 179th Street),
it would stop at Union Turnpike, skip 75th Ave, and stop only at 71-Continental + Jackson Heights + Queensboro Plaza.
It would actually be USEFUL if it ran express and served Queens Plaza. Moreover, if it ran express to 179th Street, it basically runs non-stop from Union Turnpike to Parsons Blvd. It would mean BETTER transit times for people who would otherwise take the 'F' train.
The V would run express, F would run local, E comes off the ARcher Avenue line and joins the F on the local tracks as it does now, they take the crossover onto the express tracks (and merge with the V) just east of 71-Continental Avenue. The G and R trains arrive from the yard across the platform on the local track.
West of 36th Street, the F splits off and goes down the 63rd street line...
It makes sense, and allows the G to operate all the way from Brooklyn. It also solves another problem -- the 71-continental ave station could handle both the G and R service, now that the V terminus has been moved east.
It would work the same way if the V went to Jamaica Center instead of 179th Street. This might be better, since the R could now be extended to 179th Street?
Terminating the G at Court House Square with no connection to Queens Plaza is STUPID.
btw, the G runs to 71st Ave during evening hours and weekends
The R to 179 failed because the Hillside local passengers bitched about losing express service after Continental and their one-seat ride to 53rd Street or 6Av. A majority of riders from P/A don't want 60th St or Bway, and those who do aren't likely to want to be on a local all the way there -- so they take the E and change to the R at JH or QP. No big deal.
V to 179 would give Hillside local stops the option of one-seat to 6Av, albeit via local. Those who can't bear riding local all the way can change to the F at an express stop. If they want 53rd St, they can switch to the E at Union Tpk or 71Av.
G still wouldn't be able to go to QB during the daytime because of the logistical issues of having to terminate 2 lines at Continental with a third going through on the same track. Fumigating the R would undoubtedly cause some issues, but both the G & R would make it impossible.
http://www.nycsubway.org/ind/qblvd/ind-qblvd-roosevelt.html
it mentions the Abandoned Upper Level of Roosevelt Avenue
Does anyone know if this unused section could actually be renovated and put into service? Could it be used to turn around eastbound trains on the Q Blvd line?
If so, would the line then be able to handle the G,R and V, weekdays, between Q Plaza and Jackson Hts?
Is this even worth considering? I don't recall seeing the idea mentioned before.
D Express from Bedford Park Boulevard to 59 Street Columbus Circle: 28:14
B Local from Bedford Park Boulevard to 59 Street Columbus Circle: 41:47 Minutes
Time Saved: 14 Minutes
E Express from 71st Ave to 23rd Ely: 15:37
V Local from 71st Ave to 23rd Ely: 27:21
Time Saved: 12 Minutes
Let's Get More Specific With These Times Just to Point Out Differences
125 Street to 59 Street via Express: 7min 22sec
125 Street to 59 Street via Local: 12min 14sec
*Note No Delays Occured (luck I suppose)
So you save 5 minutes off the bat with the CPW
Roosevelt Avenue to Queens Plaza via Express: 6min 54sec
Roosevelt Avenue to Queens Plaza via Local: 11min 22sec.
Save 5 minutes over the local
So if you really want to, when it comes from going and coming to work these trains save time. I don't know where 3 minutes came from because I saved 5. Maybe delays were occured. But I recorded these times and I will continue to record times throughout the system and post an official record of local to express times.
The operating difference is that the locals beat it out from station to station, while the express run is more ... umm ... "leisurely" to make its time points. But the perception is that the express is much faster, because you are running continuously between many fewer stops.
On the subway it isn't only times. It's the number of times you are pushed forward and back by acceleration and deceleration, and the number of times you have to move around people squeezing on and off.
If a local and an express each averaged 20 miles per hour, with the express running at about that speed and the local accelerating to and decelerating from 35, most people would STILL want the express. I know I would. I'd want the express if it LOST a couple of minutes.
Same thing in a car. Better to keep going than face stop and go.
Example:
Weekday northbound V train at 34 St 6:49AM arrives at Roosevelt Ave 7:09AM
The next train, northbound F express, arrives at 34 St at 6:53AM and gets into Roosevelt at 7:10AM. I take the V, and even though it keeps stopping, I know I'm getting there and don't have to worry about whether or not that 6:53 F is on time.
E Express from 71st Ave to 23rd Ely: 15:37
V Local from 71st Ave to 23rd Ely: 27:21
That is an interesting experiment and I would like to more about how your observations were made.
You rode the express trains, but did you also ride the locals? If not, how did you measure the time taken on the local trains?
Trains generally run slower during rush hours, due to longer dwell times and more congestion. So if you started your observations at 6:30 a.m., I would expect your later durations to be longer than your earlier ones, so not strictly comparable.
To be truly comparable, the observations should be made by riding both the local and the express train at the same time of day (on different weekdays). The actual start times and stop times should be reported.
Ideally your observations should be repeated; otherwise you only have a sample of one, subject to a large sampling error.
It is likely that the extra time per extra stop depends on the time of day, besides varying from line to line.
125 Street to 59 Street via Express: 7min 22sec
125 Street to 59 Street via Local: 12min 14sec
*Note No Delays Occured (luck I suppose)
Well first thing - somewhere, there must have been a delay on the B, since its scheduled running time from BPB to 59 St is 35 minutes.
Story:
B train sitting at 145 waiting for starting lights. People come down the stairs and have just missed the D. Tell them to take the B, since no D will pass it.
They said, No its a local and we want the express.
OK, fine. Where are you going?
34 St
Get starting lights, go to 34 St, dump train, walk to D platform and wait.
D arrives and people from 145 get off.
What took you so long?, I asked.
I can do that every day, multiple times, providing no delays.
The D used to *mean* something ... BOY am I glad I moved upstate before I ever had to witness that personally. :-\
The timers though ... those of us who pounded the rails for a living were once considered "trustworthy" to know the speed and not exceed it or operate unsafely when we saw yellows ahead ... :(
That, combined with the increased comfort of fewer stops and starts, is almost as important as the time saved.
Da Hui
Even factoring in rush hour delays, it still saves more time than that. In fact, if you factor in rush-hour delays, you must also factor in the conga line of G/R/V trains waiting to enter Continental in the evening.
Did the BMT have plans for extension/expansion before Hylan came in and spoiled their fun?
News to me, thanks.
I guess 6th Ave/14th Street was transfer point for people to transfer between the 6th Ave el and the Canarsie Line? 6th Ave/14th seems to be in the middle of nowhere also. I know it's long ago, but was 6th Ave always supposed to be the endo fo the line as planned originally? Was it a stub terminal, or did it have tail tracks before the extension to 8th Ave?
Keep warm!
Was there also a passageway from 6 Avenue to Union Square? I remember walking on the station and there was a passageway that seemed to go from the lower mezzazine over the n/b platform and it seemed to be making its way in the direction of Union Square than abruptly end at the end of the 6 Avenue station.
No... The BMT ended at 6th Avenue. The Extention to 8th Avenue is a post unification device.
Yes it was to continue west (IIRC) but that was never done.
It is only very recently that the chaining on the (L) was revised to account for 8th Avenue.
Elias
Peri-unification. It opened in 1931.
First of all, the PATH runs up the middle of 6th Ave; the local tracks were constructed on either side of it. Second, the express tracks were laid in much later, underneath the locals and the PATH.
However, this was an ad-hoc design, not the original plan. The original plan was to have the IND reclaim the PATH tracks and the express tracks would have been laid out traditionally, on the same level, and 14th St. would have been converted into an express station. Apparently, Hylan didn't much care for the H & M lines either.
IRT lines that can handle BMT sized cars once the station platforms are shaved:
-The Lexington Line north of Grand Central
-The West Side IRT south of Times Square (including Times Square, but excluding the South Ferry loop)
-All the Bronx Els except the West Farms El south of East 180th St
-The Brooklyn IRT east of Atlantic Avenue (including both the Livonia El, and the Flatbush line).
-The Clark St Tunnel from Manhattan to where it joins the Joralaman tunnel route.
-The entire 7 line in Queens, excluding the Steinway tubes.
So these are the lines that banish the IRT to skinny cars, relatively a small part of the whole IRT:
-The Lexington Line south of Grand Central, including the South Ferry Loop (which originally belonged to the Lexington Line, not the West Side line).
-The West Side 1 Line north of Times Square, excluding TS.
-The 42 St Shuttle.
-The Joralhamen Tunnel to Atlantic Ave.
-The Steinway Tubes on the 7.
-The 2/3 Line from 96th St to Lenox and East 180th St.
Everything Else on the IRT is built to IND/BMT specs, and could technically carry 60 foot car. Of course the platforms would have to be shaved, and I'm sure their have been some encumbrances built since then (signal houses and the like), but the tunnels themselves are built to allow BMT sized cars to go through (possibly the length of a BMT standard which was 67 feet, but certainly a 60 foot car).
I had been told however that although the tunnels could fit BMT/IND 60-foot cars, the curves are sharper than the cars could take because they were build with 51 foot cars in mind. Is that true?
It is rather complicated, but the short answer is "not really". The orginal construction (1874-1882) was designed for full-size freight cars (of that era). Howevever, as successive companies took over the construction, the tunnels shrank to approximately original 1904 IRT size (but with some curves that would be problematic for IRT equipment). You can see the original larger tunnel if you take the midtown PATH to NJ - just before you get to the sign on the left that says "15th St. Shaft" is the widest part. That one tunnel to NJ is the only one with a larger diameter - the other 3 are small throughout. An additional problem is that the tunnel heading to Exchange Place from the WTC was damaged during river dredging in 1914 and a span of 9 rings were concreted over to stop the leak. This is a tight clearance even for the PATH equipment. The current PATH cars barely clear the tunnels in a number of parts of the PATH system - you can see scrape marks on the tunnel walls in some spots. When thet got the new cars in the late 60's they had to chip out some pieces (mostly the conduit duct banks on the side walls).
Other technical issues with running subway cars in the PATH system (or vice versa) are:
1) The PATH cars use trips similar to the BMT/IND (left side) while the IRT tunnels they'd run in have right-side trips.
2) PATH signal aspects are neither IRT-style nor BMT/IND style. To avoid confusion, they might need to be changed. If that happened, the number plates (and tunnel stationing, which uses a different system from the PATH signals) would probably be changed to a uniform chaining style with the subway/
Cool, I want to look for those places with the scrape marks.
So where were the 6th Av express tracks at W4th St meant to come from?
One quirk in the system which remains due to this is the difficult in moving trains from the 8th Avenue line to the 6th Ave/Houston subway express tracks at West 4th, despite the complex and flexible interlocking south of the station there. On a 8th Ave local train, you can look out through the tunnel across a 6-track abrest configuration of merges and switches designed to give the IND routing flexability. The 6th Ave Express tracks are not a part of this interlocking as they were not constructed at the same time. Trains moving from 8th ave to Houston express need to travel for a time on the local tracks, decreasing capacity.
Another awesome, darkened view of capacity on the IND is just east of Hoyt-Schermerhorn. After the crosstown lines complete their crossover to the north side of the Fulton St tracks, you can again look across 6 tracks at once. The real kicker here is that there is no interlocking, or provision to switch trains from the Crosstown line to the Fulton line. I always find this view depressing, as all that capacity is sadly underutilized; partially due to ridership paterns, and partially due to the capacity choking the Fulton-8th Ave line hits between Hoyt-Schermerhorn and Chambers St-Canal St
David
It's funny that you saw a BUDD sticker, I wasn't sure if the old girls wre still running.
Chuck Greene
That thing's still around, more or less. The plane, minus engines, wings and a lot of other stuff, is on display at the Pima Air Museum near Tucson, Arizona. Now that's a neat air museum!
Frank Hicks
One of their first railroad product was a rubber tired rail car used on the Rio Grande.
Extend #7 train to Weehawken where transfers can be made to future stop of HBLR.
Extend C tracks underwater next to GBW and run it to Fort Lee, Vince Lombardi Lot on the NJ Turnpike (now we are redefining Park AND Ride), also connect with the planned northern terminal for HBLR.
Realingn the L line to connct with PATH at 9th st and run it to HOB and JSQ. Also have the E extended to merge with PATH at WTC and run E trains from Jamaica Center to Newark.
To hell with NIMBYs, lets have MTA merge with Port Authority's transit operations.
Inter-departmental cooperation is a rare thing. Inter-Authoritarial cooperation is damn near unheard of.
A PATH-IRT connection at the WTC site doesn't buy you much, because mass transit options from NJ to Manhattan's west side are already relatively good.
The connection that would make some sense is PATH to the east side IRT, because that would give NJ commuters a one-seat ride to the Lexington Avenue corridor. But THAT would be a huge project, since PATH's WTC terminus and the IRT Brooklyn Bridge station aren't all that close.
On a cost-benefit basis, I don't know how a PATH-IRT connection would stack up against all of the other big-ticket transit projects that people are talking about. But to expect this to have been undertaken as part of the WTC reconstruction just isn't reasonable.
>>>Inter-departmental cooperation is a rare thing. Inter-Authoritarial cooperation is damn near unheard of.<<<
Actually, in case you haven't noticed, the WTC PATH station now accepts MetroCard (and other PATH stations will soon) --- an example of "unheard of" inter-authoritarial cooperation.
That was the 'damn near' part that you didn't quote. Of course, the WTC station taking Metrocards does no one any good until all the other stations take them as well, allowing round-trips. As it is now, it's only really useful for people heading to Newark by train who never intend to come back. The Verizzano Bridge is another instance of inter-Authority cooperation, but that happened under Moses's Reality Distortion Field.
Benefits? Linking PATH and the IRT gives you a one-seat ride from Jersey City and Newark to a major Manhattan trunk line with plenty of free transfers to the East Side, Brooklyn, the Bronx and Queens. Bus riders in Hudson County could catch subway trains at Journal Square instead of transfering once in Jersey and once more at 33rd or the WTC. NJ Transit train riders from the 'burbs could transfer to the subway at Newark instead of at Penn Station. Heck, if you extend the PATH one more stop in Newark, you could ride from Times Square almost to Newark Airport for the price of a token, er, Metrocard.
Yes, there would be operational issues, especially in the Cortlandt-Chambers stretch where trains from Jersey, South Ferry and Brooklyn would meet up, but it's not impossible to solve them, is it? Someone should have tried.
I was very disappointed that after all the post-9/11 talk about regional transit opportunities, all we are getting really is a chance to walk through a corridor to pay another fare to change trains. How is that different from what we had?
(End of speech. Thanks for listening.)
There isn't even enough money available to complete the transit projects that are already on the drawing board, and which are widely viewed as having more compelling benefits than this one.
>>>I was very disappointed that after all the post-9/11 talk about regional transit opportunities, all we are getting really is a chance to walk through a corridor to pay another fare to change trains. How is that different from what we had?<<<
The WTC-Fulton transit complex will be a lot better for transit riders than it was before. There will be free transfers between a number of MTA lines that didn't previously have them, and transfers that were already free will become a heckuva lot easier. I suspect that PATH-NYCT transfers will also be easier than before, albeit not free. Although your pet project wasn't seriously considered, you can't say that all they're doing is rebuilding what was there before. That just ain't so.
And besides that: the cost of a transfer, and the convenience of a transfer, are two separate things. For instance, the MTA offers a free transfer between Lexington Avenue on the F, and 59th St on the 4/5/6, but you have to walk several blocks out of doors. Junius St on the L and Livonia Avenue on the 3 are a lot closer, but the transfer is paid.
Source? The difficult transfers are the ones that entail crossing under the BMT via the IND platform. I don't think any of that's going to change. The bulk of the work will be be west of Broadway.
The bulk of the work (maybe even all of it) will be west of Nassau St, so your point is still valid. But there is a lot of stuff planned for the block between Broadway and Nassau.
mass transit options from NJ to Manhattan's west side are already relatively good
You must be joking. Compared with mass transit from the Bronx, Westchester and Long Island, mass transit from NJ is a joke, unless you have a bias towards bus service, and even then it has to be funneled through two arteries, reducing its average speed by several degrees.
So if you're going to invest in a PATH-IRT connection, it should be to the IRT #6, as various groups have proposed from time to time. Another popular idea is to extend NJ transit service from Penn Station up to Grand Central, which is one of the options under consideration if a second Hudson River commuter rail tunnel ever gets built.
It is no longer under consideration - Plan G is dead and no longer on the ARC website. It is not physically possible. A Lex local tunnel would have to move, and NJT has nothing that can accomodate 3rd rail, either under or over sliding.
The only shot at direct access to theeEast side from NJ is a PATH-Lex connection, which only Congressman Nadler is so far in favor of. PATH and MTA are too pre-occupied with playing in their sandboxes to pool a thru train service or build transfer stations with broken escaltors like every other TA facility soon becomes.
And more significantly, there are a spare 2 tracks North of that point, giving an easy track connection in the SB direction at least.
For the Northbound direction, yes. The connection could probably be located to the East of City Hall station, thereby not harming anything.
Also the Port Authority was not in the transit business till the takeover of the H&M. So it would be something new for the PA to work with the city on providing direct NY-NJ service. Robert Moses was not in power yet, so it could have been done.
Had the IND gone to Jersey in the 1930's, it would have created a different type of agency. Maybe a regional transit agency could have been created to permit the NYC Subway in reaching NJ, taken over the NYW&B, and gone over to the Island. It would gone beyond the city boarders. That would make it an ICC regulated system.
The width of the H&M would made it a B Division system. It can't possibly clear the A division based on it width (and NOT length).
Blame the depression for killing the Second Phase of the IND.
Da Hui
42 St exp track, then switch to local at 34 St??
Going North, 34 local track, then for 42 and 47, exp track??
What about the F??
Tony
F to Bway-Lafayette: local track until just before W4, then crossover to 3 into W4, then crossover to 4 to enter B-L. Northbound on 4 until after W4, then crossover to 2.
The D traveled exactly as you typed in your post.
D trains ran local along 6th Ave. except during rush hours. On July 1, 1968, the new 57th St. station opened. The original KK made its debut that day, the B became a 24/7 operation (to 168th St. rush hours, express along 6th Ave.; to 57th St. and local along 6th Ave. all other times); and the D ran express along 6th Ave 24/7.
Isn't it ironic that the new service plan for Februay seems to be doing the exact opposite?
Tony
If things work out, I may be living and working in NYC as early as the first week of February... Perhaps I'll be able to join the gang for the first run across the newly-opened Manhattan Bridge tracks. :-)
Peace,
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
Ignore them all and stay on your accustomed drugs. I'll keep my eyes open for cheap places in Long Island City (very, very cool).
Broadway has some great places to eat: Lemonia (souvlaki/gyro shop), Omonia (cafe/piano bar), Karyatis (restaurant), as well as the wonderful bread shop on the corner by the subway station!
If it weren’t for the scuba job at Rutgers, I would be back immediately!
Does it have a line down the middle with one side serving Turkish food, the other serving Greek and both denying the other exists? :-)
Having seen the same dishes again in Jewish restaurants, I would hazard that the food is relatively similar all the way through Turkey and Syria: lamb, rice, leaves and pita!
Something about pots, kettles, and the color black comes to mind....
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
Looking forward to see you in NYC next month. You will also meet Sir. Ronald, David of Broadway, LincolN, Broadway Junction, #4 Sea Beach Fred (he will be in town that week), and a great list of other not-ready-for-prime-time characters enjoying the Subtalk version of "Saturday Night Live" on the Brooklyn and West End Line-bound D train.
Thanks for the welcome, but umm, what does that have to do with my situation?
Peace,
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
He actually met me and a number of other SubTalkers at the R-9 Charter at Branford last year.
It's not backstabbing when you do it to someone's face.
For the sake of argument, let's assume I get a job somewhere in the Union Square or Flatiron districts, since that's where two of my three upcoming interviews are. (The third is on the Upper East Side, near the 86th Street stop on the Lex.)
My three housing prospects so far:
1) Greenpoint, 5 minutes from the Nassau stop on the (G), and supposedly a 15-minute walk from the Bedford stop on the (L).
2) Greenpoint, five blocks from the Greenpoint Avenue stop on the (G), and probably about 15-20 minutes to either Bedford or Lorimer on the (L).
3) Sunset Park, two block from the 53rd Street stop on the (R), four blocks from the 59th Street stop on the (N) and (R).
I've been through the hip and trendy part of Billyburg, but I'm not as familiar with Greenpoint. I understand it's somewhat similar to Astoria in terms of scale and general vibe, though. Seems like the biggest hassle would be living on the (G) line and always having to transfer at Lorimer or Queens Plaza to get anywhere worthwhile. However, once I'm on the (L), it would be a quick ride to Union Square.
I know almost nothing about Sunset Park, except that it's apparently a fairly clean and quiet residential working-class neighborhood. The ride on the (R) would be a bit of a hike and involve a transfer to the (W) at Pacific Street during late nights, but at least it would be a one-seat ride to Manhattan most of the time.
Any inside information on these areas that would be helpful? Namely, general character and safety of the neighborhoods, and the pros and cons of various commuting options. I'm planning on getting rid of my car, so being able to walk to life's neccessities (grocery store, liquor store, etc.) is crucial.
Thanks in advance....
Peace,
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
If you land a place in Williamsburg or Greentpoint you would of course have a much shorter ride into Manhattan, but on the flip side your rent would probably be higher to match the close proximity...it's kind of a toss up. On the other hand, if you have a car you might want to consider Sunset Park as you're likely to find parking more ameniable than either Williamsburg and Grnpt.
BTW, in my Astoria-to-Elmhurst-to-LIC edition of the Queens Chronicle, most of the rental ads are for Howard Beach and Ozone Park! Is there a new rent depression setting in on the "A" line?
Could be, but I doubt that the A would be responsible. It hasn't had any service changes that would make it a less appealing route.
I'd recommend Boro Park. Hell, long as you're gonna be in Brooklyn, give it a look. The housing stock is mainly good solid walkup buildings, three and four storeys high. The neighborhood is peaceful, it clusters around the elevated West End Line along New Utrecht Avenue. Busy streets adjacent to quiet blocks, colorful shops. Interesting ethnic strengths here: various Jewish neighborhoods conjoined with old school Italian turf. Not Trendy, praise Allah. Good area for fruit stands and bakeries, for sure.
MTA web site:
Posted on:1/15/04 11:02:54 AM
Due to a rail condition at Franklin Street, northbound 1 trains are running on the express tracks from Chambers Street to 14th Street.
Especially if there's congestion on the West Side express tracks, as there undoubtedly is when 1's have to be rerouted to the express.
Regards,
Jimmy
2/5 diversion 4 ya!
"A contract for the construction of the first section of the tunnel, from West 9th Street to West 19th Street, was let in March 1961 and the work is under way. The contract for the construction of the secone section from West 19th to West 31st Street is expected to be let in July 1961.*
*The contract was approved by the Board of Estimate on July 27, 1961."
David
(The express tracks go over the Manhattan bridge, and eventually to Stillwell.)
Seems like you didn’t phrase your thread as a question. A question mark usually goes in the title of such threads.
BTW, since MOM will not (and never) go to NY Penn but most likely Newark and/or Hoboken, it logically should be unaffected by any new trans-Hudson tunnels. For service into Hoboken, what would be needed is a second Waterfront Connection track, however…
It would also be stupid to hold all expansion hostage unless tunnels are built and Penn Station is expanded in some way, which will be very difficult to do.
The "B" train existed as the "BB" since it was a local and consistent with IND lettering practices.
The IND roll signs had a number of services that weren't original routings but were there are contingencies.
Do I recall correctly that the original lettered routes were not called "routes" but "signals"?
Example: Signal GG, Crosstown - World's Fair
Signal E, 8th Avenue
I also remember seeing the routes described as 'signals' in the period telephone book maps.
Bombardier R-142 #6471 rounding the curve entering West Farms Square-East Tremont Station.
St. Louis Car R-40 #4412 just leaving Newkirk Avenue Station.
St. Louis Car R-40M #4494 just outside Avenue H Station.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
TransiTALK Transportation Media Group, LLC
It looks like the R40 is running on local streets...lol
Did you use a polarizing filter or photoshop to get the great skies?
Regards,
Trevor Logan
1. what is that track branchin off in the 2nd pic?
2. I love that 3rd pic. Is most of that route like that?
2. Brighton line (Q)
Most of it. Eventually, the line goes on an embankment and elevates on its way to Stillwell Avenue. Of course, for the last year or so, Ocean Parkway, West 8th and Stillwell Avenue itself have been under massive rehabiliation and will be completed promptly.
2) Just in certain spots along the line.
Regards,
Trevor
Trevor
Also let's talk about the sign, a square piece or steel saying, RED, BLUE, come on! Real ROLLSIGNS! At least LED's! I thought this was high tech! It's humiliating when your system which is supposed to be superior technologically wise to all other subway systems shut down when a system almost 75 years older manages to continue running, both underground AND ABOVE GROUND.
WMATA.....HA!
Had to get that out of my system
Get your facts straight before starting any thread blasting WMATA for shutting down. Read what they say in defense and you will see it makes sense at the time. WMATA's managers can not predict the future. If you can, I suggest you send your resume to them. And you could have at least e-mailed WTOP when they ran the program with Richard White yesterday.
Also let's talk about the sign, a square piece or steel saying, RED, BLUE, come on! Real ROLLSIGNS! At least LED's! On ALL cars. THE MTA beat them on that one! I thought this was a high tech subway system! It's humiliating when your system which is supposed to be superior technologically wise to all other subway systems shut down when a system almost 75 years older manages to continue running, both underground AND ABOVE GROUND.
WMATA.....HA!
Had to get that out of my system
Also the new plan is to run all underground portions.
Eldery folks would probably have a better chance of getting killed on their way to the station in the hurricane/snowstorm. Grill it all you want, most church/shelter groups provide bus/van service to the area anyways since most shelters (that I know of) are not near WMATA stations.
RE: everything else I said in the other posts a few months ago reguarding the hurricane.
Also if you have such a problem with operations I suggest you write a letter and see what they have to say.
And... not for nothing, but WMATA HAS taken measures to maintain reliable and safe service through winter weather... I don't think they want the "Federal Triangle Switch Incident" again...
"The next milestone was one that everyone wishes hadn't been passed. It's sadly ironic that the first fatal train accident in Metro's six year history was only a footnote to Washington's tragic Wednesday, January 13, 1982. At 4:00 PM, 78 people died when an Air Florida 737 airliner taking off from National Airport crashed into the Potomac River at the Fourteenth Street Bridge. A half hour later, three people were killed in the tunnels at the Federal Triangle, and under the circumstances, few people seemed to notice.
I knew the supervisor that was on the ground at the interlocking when the derailment happened. I spoke to him not two hours after the wreck. He was defiantly shaken by what he witnessed.
You guy are not going to believe this.
After I moved in to my new domicile over on the eastern shore of Maryland after hurricane Isabel I went out and purchased one of those DVD VHS VCR combos. Anyhow I was playing some of the tapes I recorded back in the 1970s and 80s and on one of the tapes I found news footage of the Federal Triangle wreck. Hopefully some time after I file my taxes I will get a new computer and put a Pinnacle video capture card and DVD RW in it and share this footage with you along with some of the 8mm video I shot back in the late 80s and early 90s.
John
However, it'll add to my slight paranoia; whenever I railfan in DC, I tend to AVOID Federal Triangle (and to a lesser extent, all three "crossvault" stations, as I've been trampled at them all... though I tend to NEED L'Enfant Plaza...)
All in all, I need the Blue/Orange alignment between L'Enfant Plaza and Metro Center VERY rarely... if I'm going end-to-end, or Orange to Blue, then I'll ride through... however, on my SUMMER rips, I don't bother dodging F.T.
And in case I'm ever (unexpectedly) down there when you're out and about, here's where you'd likely find me planted for 2-3 trains: Forest Glen, Silver Spring, Grosvenor, Federal Center SW, National Airport, Pentagon City, L'Enfant Plaza (either end of the upper level; it's DEAD CENTER where I get run over), Union Station (look in the AMTRAK terminal between the VRE platforms and the Metro station entrance, that's where I enter... usually from the Carolinian), Fort Totten, Franconia-Springfield, West Falls Church, Rosslyn, Pentagon, Stadium-Armory, and Mt Vernon Sq.
Typically, I go to Silver Spring first... Forest Glen if a Glenmont train arrives. From there, then to whatever other lines I want.
What is so good about Federal Center SW?
The people movers aren't, but the Metrorail is, only smaller.
Miami-Dade Transit operates a 22.4 mile elevated rapid transit line with 22 stations capable of handling 8-car trains. The MetroMover is the people mover, which serves in part as a downtown circulation system from MDT's Metrorail.
Since MDT's Metrorail trains are OPTO and have Automatic Train Operation and Automatic Train Control, comparing Washington and Miami makes perfect sense. Take a look at MDT's Metrorail here:
http://world.nycsubway.org/us/miami/
http://www.metropla.net/am/miam/miami.htm
John
I think we can all agree that WMATA doesn’t need any equipment for snow removal on the tracks as running trains has worked at keeping the lines clear during most snow events. WMATA does have some lawn type tractors that it uses for snow removal around station entrances at suburban stations. And has contractors plow snow at some of the facilities.
What I would guess none of you know is most of the station built up to the late 1970s had electric snow melters in the pavement at the top of exposed entrance escalators and on surface station platforms. WMATA had some reliability problems with most of them. WMATA abandoned the use of the ones that were installed and did not continue the program on later station construction. I remember when they were first used at Rhode Island Avenue (B04). The thing I remember the most is not all of the heating elements in the platform worked. What I saw were strips of snow along what was mostly a dry platform. The snow melters were removed from the platform when the tile was replaces some time in the 1980s.
John
Ben F. Schumin :-)
And apparently, they're interchangeable for the shared lines, as evident by the July 4th plans Oren has on his page. You'll see Yellow to Franconia-Springfield, Blue to New Carrollton, etc... hell, they could PROBABY do Orange to Fran-Spring or Huntington, and GREEN to Fran-Spring as well. (From Greenbelt, cross Potomac River bridge, then diverge to Blue tracks after King Street)
This is Gallery Place-Chinatown. Transfer is available to the Green and Yellow Lines downstairs. Doors open on the right."
"This is a Green line trian to Greenbelt!"
Hmmm... a list of offroute terminals (not including those commonly mixed up, such as sending Blue or Green to Huntington or Yellow to Greenbelt (ESPECIALLY not THAT, as Yellow is essentially a short-turn)
Red: Greenbelt, Addison Road, Largo TC, New Carrollton, Cheverly
Green: Shady Grove, Grosvenor, Van Ness-UDC, Dupont Circle, Farragut North
Yellow: New Carrollton (about the only thing possible that isn't TOO blatantly obvious with this little line)
Orange: Shady Grove, Grosvenor, Dupont Circle, Huntington, Franconia-Springfield
Blue: Shady Grove, Grosvenor, Dupont Circle
Hm... Seems like Vienna and Anacostia/Branch Avenue would be too obvious... and northeastern Red Line can't be accessed by anything but the Red Line... I don't know if Green trains can show a Silver Spring or Glenmont sign... they'd just be RED.
Any Thing can be done with software changes.
John
0:-)
You guys keep saying keep the system open. Keep the system open for who, 1 or 2 group of people, or for so called railfans. Give me a break, its a waste of money. The only poeple who seem to be complaining are those who don't even use the system nor do they live in the District or surrounding areas.
People would still have to be on the roads to drive to the stations. If the roads are mostly empty, why bother parking and riding when you can park and go (to your destination)?
: )
Mark
I nominate the Hiawatha Line as having the best name for a transit system. Lot of history in that name...and lord help me, it keeps bringing up visions of Bugs Bunny cartoons, with wise-ass dialogue and outragous visuals. I will make it my quest, to ride the Hiawatha Line.
I was one of them. And I have the pictures to prove it. I did my courier run from Snow Hill on the Eastern Shore to Baltimore that day. When I got to Kent Island I was detoured around the north end of the Chesapeake Bay by way of Elkton because the William Preston Lane Bridge was closed on account of high winds.
John
Actually when Hurricane Isabel blew through for lack of a better word, By the time it got up to Washington and Baltimore the constant winds were not that great at the surface. I will admit there were some significant gusts. The only reason the bridge at Kent Island and across the Chesapeake Bay were closed was because they were high enough above the surface to get constant high winds.
John
Comparing a snowstorm to a hurricane is comparing apples and oranges. We don't get hurricanes every year. Metro has had a policy of making sure everyone in town got out when snow came through and they have now formally changed that. I'm sure you would be bitching and moaning if WMATA had shut down and stranded people at MCI Center who are consistently encouraged to take Metro in to town. They adhered to their original policies last winter, although I have a dated winter emergency service plan (pre winter 1999 I believe) somewhere and could post it if you were interested.
Yes, and they're doing their damnedest to provide as much service as they can under the adverse weather conditions, rather than throw up their collective hands and say it's too dangerous to run trains.
I could see tunnel flooding being a problem, but I doubt even hurricane-force winds would knock down an el. NYCT would probably keep running until a tunnel flooded.
Or what if you didn't realize that your baby daughter was going to swallow a sharp object many hours in advance? (It's an emergency room, after all.)
Is Metro a transportation system or a toy?
That's what we have 911 systems and ambulances for. I know that if I needed to go to the emergency room and didn't have a car, I certainly wouldn't take Metrorail or Metrobus. I'd be getting an ambulance over, weather or not.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Put those three things in and your image should show up.
Which is optional.
N train at Bway
W train at Bway
Slant at Astoria Blvd (from a departing N train)
Please note: file names are case sensitive, your main page must be all lowercase.
Please note: file names are case sensitive, your main page must be all lowercase.
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Yeah and I took off my glove to use the camera, and when I was done my glove had blown away! Brrr!
: )
The Budget Committee is approving plans to have the Rhode Island Avenue stop on the Red Line known as "Rhode Island Avenue - Brentwood."
And on the Yellow and Green lines, Archives - Navy Memorial will become "Archives - Navy Memorial - Penn Quarter." Never heard of "Penn Quarter?" District officials say that's the name of the residential and commercial entertainment zone developing around that station around Seventh Street and Constitution Avenue.
The D.C. government will pick up the $211,000 it's expected to cost to update the signs.
The changes still need the approval of the full Metro Board, which should happen at next Thursday's meeting.
The Budget Committee is approving plans to have the Rhode Island Avenue stop on the Red Line known as "Rhode Island Avenue - Brentwood."
Apparently Some one was listening, Re: http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=639035
And on the Yellow and Green lines, Archives - Navy Memorial will become "Archives - Navy Memorial - Penn Quarter." Never heard of "Penn Quarter?" District officials say that's the name of the residential and commercial entertainment zone developing around that station around Seventh Street and Constitution Avenue.
The D.C. government will pick up the $211,000 it's expected to cost to update the signs.
The changes still need the approval of the full Metro Board, which should happen at next Thursday's meeting.
John
Check it out: Big UP Loco
http://www.uprr.com/aboutup/excurs/up3985.shtml
visit to Super Bowl
http://www.uprr.com/notes/corpcomm/2004/0113_3985.shtml
appearance schedule
http://www.uprr.com/notes/corpcomm/2003/super_schedule.shtml
Yes, Omaha, It’s in a park next to one of the Union Pacific Facilities on the north side of downtown. As I recall It’s parked in a V formation next to EMD DD40.
John
John
See http://www.nps.gov/stea/bigboy.htm
The UP 3985 4-6-6-4 Challenger would be the biggest operational steam locomotive at present#151;as, of course, UP themselves state on those links. There are still a number of stationary 4-8-8-4 Big Boys, which are indeed larger (and, arguably, the largest steam locos ever built possibly barring the C&O’s 2-6-6-6 Allegheny types), but UP does not wish to use coal-burners with their steam program – indeed, when they restored 3985, they converted it to oil-burning.
As Irishchieftain pointed out, the Big Boy and Allegheny were both larger.
They are indeed. Would require some really straight track to have made the Challenger a Duplex instead of a non-compound Mallet…and these beasts were designed for the mountain grades.
27Sept2003 MOD Trip--Linden Shops Pictures
27Sept2003 MOD Trip--Rockaway Parkway Pictures
27Sept2003 MOD Trip--Various pictures on the M Line
28Sept2003 MOD Trip (Southern Division (all lines going to CI))--9th Av. Yard Pictures
28Sept2003 MOD Trip (Southern Division (all lines going to CI))--Brighton Line Pictures
28Sept2003 MOD Trip (Southern Division (all lines going to CI))--Broad St. Pictures
28Sept2003 MOD Trip (Southern Division (all lines going to CI))--CIY Pictures
09Nov2003 MOD Trip--Cypress Hills, Alabama Av., and Cresent St. Pictures
09Nov2003 MOD Trip--Jamaica Center Pictures
09Nov2003 MOD Trip--Metropolitan Av. Pictures
Redbird Trip of 20Dec2003--177th St.-Parkchester Pictures
Redbird Trip of 20Dec2003--Dyre Av. Line Pictures
Redbird Trip of 20Dec2003--Hunts Point Av. Pictures
Redbird Trip of 20Dec2003--Misc. Pictures
Redbird Trip of 20Dec2003--Whitlock Av. Pictures
Redbird Trip of 20Dec2003--Yard Pictures
Redbird Trip of 21Dec2003--149th St-Grand Concourse Pictures
Redbird Trip of 21Dec2003--242nd St-Van Cortlandt Park Pictures
Redbird Trip of 21Dec2003--Flatbush Av. and Winthrop St Pictures
Redbird Trip of 21Dec2003--Misc. Pictures
27Dec2003 MOD Trip--Astoria Line Pictures
27Dec2003 MOD Trip--Misc. Pictures
27Dec2003 MOD Trip--Rockaway Park Pictures The Brown R code that is on the front of Car 5226 in this picture in this album was worse than this when I took it; I tried to touch up the original photo best I could with LView Pro 2001/4th Quarter (the image viewer/editor I use) before uploading it.
27Dec2003 MOD Trip--Smith-9th Sts. Pictures
28Dec2003 MOD Trip--111th St. (J Line) Pictures
28Dec2003 MOD Trip--8th Av. Pictures
28Dec2003 MOD Trip--Car 100 Pictures
28Dec2003 MOD Trip--Livonia Av. Pictures
28Dec2003 MOD Trip--Marcy Av. and Williamsburgh Pictures
28Dec2003 MOD Trip--Rockaway Parkway Pictures
28Dec2003 MOD Trip--Upper level Wilson Av. Pictures
Other Subway Pictures
South Jersey Light Rail Pictures at the NJT Trenton Train Station
Koi
(W) ----------------------------------------------
V-----------------------------------------------(Destroys a very fast ride to coney island via tha crosstown and quick transfer to the F
J can become the west end/ 4 ave express (Faster to financial district) (also eases pressure on the 2,3,4,and 5 trains) only during all times of the week not on weekends
can be the sea beach rush express ( this is even faster to herald sq) or just the midtown direct)and could end at 57/7 av weekdays
Tell me what yall think of this proposal
(W) ----------------------------------------------
V-----------------------------------------------(Destroys a very fast ride to coney island via tha crosstown and quick transfer to the F
J can become the west end/ 4 ave express (Faster to financial district) (also eases pressure on the 2,3,4,and 5 trains) only during all times of the week not on weekends
can be the sea beach rush express ( this is even faster to herald sq) or just the midtown direct)and could end at 57/7 av weekdays
Tell me what yall think of this proposal
Ghosts in White Linen -by Bob Rivers
(Parody of Nights in White Satin by The Moody Blues)
Ghosts in White Linen
Never touching the ground
Kids ringing door bells
Making their rounds
Ran out of snickers
I don't have any more
A pack of Bart Simpsons
Threw eggs at my door
If I catch you
I'm gonna get you
Oh you bastards
I'm gonna catch you
And ring you neck
Some sort of a weather protection device???
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It is a P32AC-DM. It replaced the FL9 on Metro-North.
cool, thanks.
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That is, that M(x) train.
(Let x equal an even number greater than zero and less than eight.)
Long live the ACMU 1100's.
They should repaint some or all of the sets into their "as delivered" colors and lettering. That would be awesome. Of course that's only my opinion.
From memory: The first New York Central air-conditioned MUs (4500s, later 1000s): 1950
New Haven washboards: 1954
Two later groups of NYC cars (4600s and 4700s, now the 1100s): 1962 and 1965.
They were all generally similar. The New Haven cars had pairs of smaller windows. The NYC 4500s were a little higher than the later cars, with taller windows, and a window opposite the cab window.
Michael Wares
Librarian, at the Rose Hill (Bronx) campus
Line segments ridden:
Bakerloo: Baker Street to Oxford Circus; Picadilly Circus to Elephant and Castle
Central: Bond Street to Epping
Circle: entire
District: Wimbledon to Tower Hill
East London: Canada Water to Whitechapel
Hammersmith and City: Paddington to Aldgate East
Jubilee: Westminster to Waterloo; London Bridge to Canada Water
Metropolitan: entire, except for Amersham/Chesham/Watford
Northern (Charing Cross): High Barnet to Waterloo
Northern (Bank): Kings Cross/St.Pancras to Bank
Piccadilly: entire, except for Acton Town to Heathrow
Victoria: Finsbury Park to Victoria
Waterloo & City: entire (duh!)
Docklands Light Rail: Stratford to Cutty Sark; Bank to Poplar
Croydon Tramlink: entire
Other things ridden:
JFK AirTrain (entire)
South Central rail, London Victoria to Brighton via East Croydon, return to London Bridge due to trackwork diversion
South Central rail, West Croydon to London Victoria
Silver Link rail London Euston to Milton Keynes Central and return
Heathrow Express, London Paddington to Heathrow Airport
National Express bus, Heathrow Airport to central London (don't remember which stop)
Many London buses
Greenwich Foot Tunnel
Now, for my impressions ...
1) Train frequencies on the Tube are absolutely mind-blowing. Only once did I wait as long as ten minutes for a train, usually it was just two or three minutes even at night. New York's endless headways are absurd by comparison.
2) Speaking of mind-blowing things, the amount of regular rail transit is utterly incomprehensible. London has multiple terminal stations each one of which is at least as busy at Penn or Grand Central. Many suburban rail routes have service frequencies that are more like what you'd see on an urban transit system. A commuter rail map of the area south of the Thames struck me as more akin to a bus map, given the web of lines blanketing the area. A very high percentage of people in the whole metro area must be within walking distance of a Tube or train station.
3) Maybe as a result of its high fares - or as a cause - the Tube seems extravagantly overstaffed. In addition to a ticket seller, every station appeared to have at least two customer service people on duty by the turnstiles. Busier stations had several of them, in addition to platform conductors during rush hour. There also seemed to be a very heavy police presence in most station, though I never saw any police riding the train themselves.
4) The Croydon Tramlink is very cool. It features, at various points, rural-seeming segments, urban street running, a long tunnel, and a stretch along a commuter rail line. The cars had excellent visibility and nice seats.
5) I wasn't too taken with the DLR. Dunno why exactly, but it just didn't float my boat, to mix transportational metaphors.
6) Riding the Central Line to Epping is like a trip out into the countryside. Seriously - you pass some sheep farms along the way.
7) There doesn't seem to be much freight rail activity. I saw no freight at all in the lenghty trip to Brighton, not even any old sidings. The line to Milton Keynes did pass an intermodal yard at Wembley, as well as a general freight yard in the vicinity, but neither were particularly large.
8) The Greenwich Foot Tunnel is the creepiest thing you can imagine.
There's more, but this is about all I can think of now.
Well, I walked through it northbound at about 3:30 on Monday afternoon. It took me maybe seven or eight minutes. In that time, I saw exactly one other person, a man walking in the opppsite direction. You'd never see such a deserted tunnel allowed to remain open in New York.
Ah, I didn't realize that the elevators were staffed (I used the spiral walkways on each end). Even so, I suspect a similar tunnel would be considered a safety hazard in New York.
London has multiple terminal stations each one of which is at least as busy at Penn or Grand Central
And if you will permit me to veer off-topic, in this vein though, I would like to express my opinion that if the CNJ, PRR Exchange Place, Erie and Weehawken terminals were still operational (but also seeing the amount of passenger trains that the London terminals do), they would be just as busy. Instead, all of the trains are crammed into two terminals in Manhattan, and people wonder why the traffic is abominable in the city…
Amazing to think that New York essentially once had about seven railroad terminals.
I think that there are many other conclusions that could be reached besides "NYC has crappy train service".
Possessing such a huge number of termini is not an advantage - it is an inconvenience because it makes transferring between different lines difficult. A "Union Station" for London would have to be remarkably huge, but if it existed it would be a great convenience!
An idea:
Take the 4 track GW Main Line and re-route it alongside the NLL to Gospel Oak, then take it elevated over the MML to a high-level terminus between King's X and St Pancras.
Put a crossover at West Hampstead so that Fast Mets and Chiltern services can run on the Midland Fast Lines into St Pancras.
Divert all 6 tracks of the WCML via Primrose Hill and into a huge terminal above the MML just North of the St Pancras trainshed.
Divert all 4 tracks of the GE Main Line over the NLL, joined by 2 tracks of West Anglia in Hackney, to a new elevated terminal at King's Cross.
LTS services diverted via Barking - Kentish Town to St Pancras.
There - everything North of the Thames into Union Station, aka King's X - St Pancras. :-D
I suppose one could argue that St. Pancras and King's Cross should be counted as a single station given that they're right next to each other. I also was surprised at how close Euston was to them, no more than three or four blocks. Victoria seemed like the odd station out, quite a haul from any other.
They are indeed next door; however, they are operationally completely separate. St Pancras is reachable only from the Midland main line coming in through West Hampstead, and Kings Cross from the Great Northern main line coming in through Finsbury Park. From 2007, St Pancras will be accessible from the Channel Tunnel link coming in from Stratford as well, but that will bridge across the Kings Cross approach tracks (by a bridge that has just been installed recently).
Although the tube station is called "Kings Cross St Pancras" the separate identities of the two main line stations have always been maintained. I guess it helps in reducing passenger confusion, though there are always some non-regular travellers who go the wrong one.
But then, anyone seeing The Graduate would think USC is Berkeley....
Certainly, you can tell King’s Cross because of the distinctive yellow brick used to build the arches supporting the engine shed roof.
The confusion I was thinking about was from “Chamber of Secrets” where, after failing to get through the barrier, Harry and Ron return to their car, which is parked on the ramp up to St Pancras.
Of course, they could be parking there to stay out of the construction zone…
Jamaica is not a terminal, except for AirTrain. Newark Penn is only a terminal for a limited number of trains and Journal Square is not a mainline train station at all.
It's a real shame you weren't able to hook up with any of the British Subtalkers while you were here. Maybe next time. But I'm really glad that you had such a good time anyway, and that you got generally favourable impression of the rail systems of London and southeast England.
Fytton.
Service must have degraded at GCT and NYP to be as quiet as Marylebone (6tph off-peak)!
That doesn't seem particularly quiet.
It's better than it used to be. It breaks down to:
- 2tph Aylesbury via Amersham
- 1tph Aylesbury (Slow) via High Wycombe
- 1tph Princes' Risborough (Slow) via High Wycombe
- 1tph Birmingham Snow Hill (Semi-Fast) via High Wycombe and Banbury
- 1tph Banbury (Semi-Fast) via High Wycombe
It's not exactly the best map ever (nor are service patterns as simple as they could be). What you've got to realise is that there are 4 different railways there. If you look at the overall map, it looks like a mess, but split it up and it all makes sense:
1) The South Western - this runs from Waterloo via Clapham Junction, where it divides into the Windsor Lines (via Wandsworth Town etc) and the Main Line (via Earlsfield, Wimbledon etc). These then fan out.
2) The South Eastern - this has a branch to the City (Cannon St) and West End (Charing X). The North Kent Line branches off via Deptford and Greenwich, whilst the Main Line runs via New Cross. These then fan out.
3) The Chatham - this too has City (Blackfriars) and West End (Victoria, platforms 1-8) termini, both having access to two 2-track alignments (via Penge (the Main Line) and via Catford (the Catford Loop)) before becoming a 4-track main line. There are connectors to the South Eastern at Lewisham, between New Beckenham and Beckenham Junction (now little used), in tangle East of Bickley (allowing Bickley-Orpington and Chislehurst-St Mary Cray), and between Blackfriars and London Bridge (now used by half of the Thameslink trains); to the Midland North of Blackfriars (Thameslink); and to the Brighton between Herne Hill and Tulse Hill (used by the remainder of Thameslink trains).
4) The Brighton - yet again, there is a City (London Bridge) and West End (Victoria, platforms 9-16) split, the Main Line merging at East Croydon and branching outwards from this point (certain branches were actually built by the South Eastern, but are operationally part of the Brighton - some trains still cross over onto the South-Eastern at London Bridge). The original line (then the London & Croydon) went to West Croydon and both termini can reach this station. This extends to Sutton and beyond. However, most trains beyond Sutton have used a cut-off avoiding Croydon, running from both termini via Mitcham Junction. Two final oddities are the South London Line (parallelling the Chatham, running between London Bridge and Victoria) and the branches via Crystal Palace.
1 + 4 = 5) The line from Epsom to Leatherhead is a rare example of co-operation!
Maybe as a result of its high fares - or as a cause - the Tube seems extravagantly overstaffed.
Overstaffed? Never! Until electrification was completed, some Met trains had a Guard, a Driver, and a Fireman! Okay, it's not quite like that any more, but the Sub-Surface Lines do think that they are Main Line railways.
Riding the Central Line to Epping is like a trip out into the countryside. Seriously - you pass some sheep farms along the way.
Don't look back in Ongar, is what I say.
There doesn't seem to be much freight rail activity. I saw no freight at all in the lenghty trip to Brighton, not even any old sidings. The line to Milton Keynes did pass an intermodal yard at Wembley, as well as a general freight yard in the vicinity, but neither were particularly large.
Freight is really of secondary importance. The Southern Region doesn't carry much freight at all (hence not seeing any on the Brighton Main Line is expected!). Most freight now goes by road, especially as many important branch lines and secondary routes were closed 30-40 years ago. If you're looking for freight, there is slightly more in the Midlands.
As you say, they can best be understood by their origins as four separate companies: 1) London & South Western, 2) London & South Eastern, 3) London, Chatham & Dover and 4) London, Brighton & South Coast. All four companies eventually amalgamated to become the Southern Railway, and the electrified suburban lines were called the Southern Electric.
Quite recently a passenger rail service, called Thameslink, was started between the north and south suburban lines, via a disused freight tunnel from Blackfriars to Kings Cross & St. Pancras. "Thameslink 2000" is a plan to expand Thameslink.
There is a much more ambitious plan called "Crossrail", that would see main line commuter trains running east-west in full sized tunnels through the City and West End. One purpose would be to relieve overcrowding on the underground.
One plan that is actually under construction is a main line to bring Eurostar trains from the Channel Tunnel into St. Pancras, which would be faster than Waterloo. The line has reached the southeast fringes of London and the remainder will be in tunnel.
Along with:
1) Isle of Wight Railways
- Freshwater, Yarmouth & Newport Railway
- Isle of Wight Railway
- Isle of Wight Central Railway
- Ryde Pier & Tramway
2) Other Independent Railways
- East London Railway (from GE, LBSC, Met, Met District, & SE Jt) [to LT Exec 1948]
- Lynton & Barnstaple Railway
- Somerset & Dorset Railway (Joint with LMS - it was effectively LSW and Midland before the Grouping)
3) Railways that were little more than notional holding companies
- Bridgwater Railway (SD)
- Brighton & Dyke Railway (LBSC)
- Hayling Railways (LBSC)
- Lee-on-the-Solent Light Railway (LSW)
- London & Greenwich Railway (SE)
- Mid Kent (Bromley & St Mary Cray) Railway (LCD)
- North Cornwall Railway (LSW)
- Plymouth & Dartmoor Railway (LSW)
- Sidmouth Railway (LSW)
- Victoria Station & Pimlico Railway Company (LBSC & LCD (& theoretically GWR & LNWR))
- Wimbledon & Sutton Railway (LBSC (& LSW?))
4) Ones I don't know enough about to categorise
- Totton, Hythe & Fawley Light Railway
Several posters which I saw said that the Eurostars will begin running to St. Pancras in 2007. There is a massive amount of construction going on between St. Pancras and King's Cross, which I believe is related to this project.
That's interesting. I haven't been there for ages, but I am sure you are right about the purpose of the construction work.
Just foot access? Trains are finding it awkward to access it to. And it's only going to get harder when it effectively gets reduced to 2 platforms!
It is indeed. St Pancras station is being extended in two directions - lengthening the platforms to take the long Eurostar trains, with a new overall roof over the extended platforms; and building new platforms at the side to take Midland Mainline trains. Kings Cross St Pancras underground station is simultaneously being rebuilt with a new booking hall, to accommodate the increased passenger traffic with a more convenient arrangement. And a new Thameslink station built to Thameslink 2000 standards (i.e. to take 12-car trains) is being built, to replace the inconveniently sited, and non-extendable Kings Cross Thameslink.
A difficult time is going to start in September 2004. At that point Thameslink trains from the north will be terminating in St Pancras (requiring four of the six available platforms) while Thameslink trains from the south will terminate in the present, doomed Kings Cross Thameslink station. That will leave Midland Mainline (MML)temporarily with only two platforms in St Pancras. They run about 6 tph in the peak hours, most of them full-length main-line type trains (HSTs) with manual doors, and the nearest storage sidings are about five miles out. That seems to require a slickness of operation, and adherence to schedules, way beyond anything MML has ever shown itself capable of. As an MML commuter, I have serious forebodings about this!
Meanwhile the tunnelling from Stratford to St Pancras is also in progress, as is construction of the line from the southeast across the Thames into Stratford. The new high-speed line is already in use between the Chunnel and the outskirts of Greater London south of the Thames.
I seriously don't see it working at all. I don't see why the Bedpan Line is being allowed to obstruct Main Line trains. Its schedule should be rationalised for the duration of the works to allow quick turnarounds at St Pancras using just 2 platforms, with all the recovery time at the outer termini.
What might be useful would be a displacement of rolling stock to get some decent diesels onto Thameslink enabling merging some of its fastest trains (eg the one that doesn't stop till Leagrave) with the Slow MML services, perhaps then picking up Central Trains' all stops Leicester - Loughborough slot. I think this swap would work:
Some 319s from TL to Centro for the Walsall Line
150s from Walsall Line to CT Lincoln via Leicester Local
156s, 158s (and 170s?) from CT Lincoln to Thameslink
I would have thought that a more flexible approach, allowing the six platforms to be shared between the two operators as required, would have been better, but presumably the allocation of the platforms to the two TOCs is necessitated by the daft privatised structure.
13 random tph aren't rational. A rational service could maintain 13tph, but actually have them coordinated so that 6 platforms could easily handle them.
Let us examine the PM Peak:
1600-1659 : 9tph TL, 6tph MML
1 TL Bedford (Luton AP then all stops)
3 TL Bedford (St Alban's then all stops)
1 TL Bedford (W Hampstead, St Alban's then all stops)
3 TL Luton (all stops)
1 TL St Alban's (all stops)
1 MML Barnsley via Nottingham (Luton AP, Bedford, Wellingboro, Kettering, Mkt Harboro)
1 MML Manchester (Bedford)
2 MML Nottingham (Wellingboro, Kettering, Mkt Harboro) "The Robin Hood"
1 MML Sheffield (Kettering)
1700-1759 : 13tph TL, 6tph MML
1 TL Bedford (Leagrave then all stops)
1 TL Bedford (Luton then all stops)
1 TL Bedford (Luton AP then all stops)
3 TL Bedford (St Alban's then all stops)
1 TL Bedford (W Hampstead, Cricklewood, Mill Hill and all stops)
1 TL Luton (St Alban's then all stops)
1 TL Luton (all stops)
1 TL St Alban's (Elstree then all stops)
1 TL St Alban's (W Hampstead, Mill Hill then all stops)
2 TL St Alban's (all stops)
1 MML Burton (Luton AP, Wellingboro, Kettering, Mkt Harboro)
1 MML Leeds (non-stop to Leicester) "The Master Cutler"
1 MML Leeds via Nottingham (Bedford, Wellingborough, Kettering, Mkt Harboro)
1 MML Manchester (Wellingboro, Kettering)
1 MML Nottingham (Luton, Wellingboro, Kettering)
1 MML Nottingham (Luton, Wellingboro, Kettering, Mkt Harboro)
1800-1859 : 11tph TL, 4tph MML
1 TL Bedford (St Alban's, Luton AP, Leagrave, Flitwick, Bedford)
2 TL Bedford (St Alban's then all stops)
2 TL Bedford (W Hampstead, St Alban's then all stops)
1 TL Luton (Mill Hill, Elstree, Radlett, St Alban's, Luton AP, Luton)
1 TL Luton (W Hampstead, Mill Hill then all stops)
2 TL Luton (all stops)
1 TL St Alban's (Mill Hill then all stops)
1 TL St Alban's (all stops)
1 MML Burton / Matlock (split at Derby) (Luton, Wellingboro, Kettering, Mkt Harboro)
1 MML Leeds (Kettering, Mkt Harboro)
1 MML Manchester (Bedford, Wellingboro, Kettering, Mkt Harboro)
1 MML Nottingham (Bedford, Wellingboro)
1900-1959 : 9tph TL, 4tph MML
1 TL Bedford (St Alban's, Luton AP, Leagrave, Flitwick, Bedford)
4 TL Bedford (St Alban's then all stops)
1 TL Bedford (W Hampstead, Mill Hill then all stops to Luton, Flitwick, Bedford)
3 TL Luton (all stops)
1 MML Derby (Luton AP, Bedford, Wellingboro, Kettering, Mkt Harboro)
1 MML Leeds (Luton, Kettering)
1 MML Manchester (Luton, Wellingboro, Kettering, Mkt Harboro)
1 MML Sheffield (Wellingboro)
The MML services are really stuck at the times they are. Nothing much can be changed North of Wigston (North) Jct without messing up the train paths somewhere, so the only way their departure times at St Pancras can be changed is by altering the stopping patterns South of that point.
Thameslink's bizarre looking service pattern could be vastly simplified. For a start, it's pretty clear that the service is effectively 12tph from 1630 to 1930. 18 of these trains, or 6tph, reach Bedford. The remainder are (just about) equally divided between Luton and St Alban's terminators. Despite the weird timetable, half the trains are effectively stoppers. Only 4 trains in the entire peak are fast to a point beyond St Alban's (few enough trains that this oddball amounts to just over 1tph and can be safely eliminated without anyone noticing).
A pattern therefore could be established:
00 (P1/3) MML
02 (P5) TL Bedford (first stop: St Alban's)
07 (P6) TL Luton
12 (P5) TL Bedford (first stop: St Alban's)
15 (P2/4) MML
17 (P6) TL St Alban's
22 (P5) TL Bedford (first stop: St Alban's)
25 (P3/1) MML
27 (P6) TL Luton
30 (P4/2) MML
32 (P5) TL Bedford (first stop: St Alban's)
37 (P6) TL St Alban's
42 (P5) TL Bedford (first stop: St Alban's)
45 (P1/3) MML
47 (P6) TL Luton
52 (P5) TL Bedford (first stop: St Alban's)
55 (P2/4) MML
57 (P6) TL St Alban's
Furthermore the Kings Cross/St Pancras complex is the largest public transit hub in London. We just have to hope that the effort to upgrade that rather seedy district is successful!
Seedy it is. I walked from the flop, er, hotel where I stayed, which was near the Finsbury Park station, to King's Cross one morning. Suffice to say it was a part of London that tourists don't often see. Heck, it was a part that they shouldn't see. The area around Finsbury Park station, especially to its south (I was staying to its north, fortunately) is quite possibly the closest thing in all of London to a U.S.-style ghetto.
Errrmmmm... scenic...
possibly the closest thing in all of London to a U.S.-style ghetto.
It isn't exactly an area that inspires a sense of security.
Seedy it is. I walked from the flop, er, hotel where I stayed, which was near the Finsbury Park station, to King's Cross one morning. Suffice to say it was a part of London that tourists don't often see. Heck, it was a part that they shouldn't see. The area around Finsbury Park station, especially to its south (I was staying to its north, fortunately) is quite possibly the closest thing in all of London to a U.S.-style ghetto.
The two Railways’ reputation for feuding was only preceded by their reputation for poor service, The Times recalling them… .‘The little overlapping companies were always good for a laugh, sometimes ribald, every now and then sardonic. The London, Chatham and Dover became the Undone, Smash’em and Turn’em Over. The South Eastern & Chatham main line was the scene of the fictitious tragedy in which a would-be suicide laid his neck on the line and died of starvation’
So in 1923 the Southern Railway was formed (mainly) from the London & South Western (L&SWR), the London Brighton & South Coast (LB&SCR) and the South Eastern & Chatham (SE&CR).
The next historical milestone was nationalisation in 1948, when the entire railway system became "British Railways".
Under the Conservative Government's Railway Act, 1993, British Rail was split up and privatized.
Railtrack was given the job of maintaining the tracks, and the job of operating the trains was divided up among train operating companies. In 2002 Railtrack went into liquidation and a non-profit organization called Network Rail took over the rails.
The former Southern Railway part of the system is now operated by three train operating companies: South Western runs the former L&SWR; South Central runs the former LB&SCR and South Eastern runs the former SE&CR. So they are operated along the same lines as before the 1923 Grouping.
Sort of. The SE&C was only a management committee. The LC&DR and SER remained separate companies until the grouping.
I bought off-peak (can't be used before 9:30 am) all-zone day passes for the Underground. They cost 5.40 pounds each, which is something like $9.
Thank you.......
The "cheap day return" option on the ticket machines, which IIRC does not permit travel during rush hour. I really don't remember how much each fare cost.
More precisely not before 0900/0930 depending on the line.
the amount of regular rail transit is utterly incomprehensible
The busiest services are mostly south of the Thames and the Liverpool Street and Fenchurch Street lines to the east. In areas served by tube trains, regular rail does not compete effectively, and services are not so frequent. Even on the Southern Electric the branches fan out, and some outer branches only have 2 TPH. One main line station, Broad Street (next door to Liverpool Street) was demolished because of poor ridership, and the land was sold for office development.
I wasn't too taken with the DLR.
But it is widely considered a great success and it was built for a fraction of the cost of a heavy rail or tube line. I find it sad, though, that the London docks are no more.
And South of Kennington on the Northern Line.
Broad Street (next door to Liverpool Street) was demolished because of poor ridership
I see it as a missed opportunity. Given the amount of 4-tracking the NLR originally had, fast trains at peak times on weekdays could give easy access from Windsor (Central), Reading, Northampton, and St Alban's (Abbey) to the City.
Broad Street was not a popular terminus because of its long route (from northwest London) to the City and not the West End.
That is correct - and it also needs to be remembered that the main focus of employment on London has shifted westwards. In exactly the same way that NYC's jobs have grown in midtown while, relatively speaking, there are fewer in the the downtown finance district, so in London the biggest commuter flows are now to the West End. So termini in the City (the finance district) are now relatively less busy while they is huge demand for direct services to the West End. This also explains why the Central Line is the busiest tube line - it takes people commuting into Liverpool Street station (who have no choice of central London terminus) on to the West End.
The North London (NL) line, which used to go into Broad Street, wasn't closed; it was diverted via Hackney to Stratford and North Woolwich. The North Woolwich tip is likely to close when the Docklands Light Railway's next new branch (to City Airport and King George V Dock) opens as the DLR branch will parallel the North Woolwich line very closely. But the rest of the NL, Richmond to Stratford, will continue, and hopefuly get a 15-minute frequency all day. It is a useful cross-London link not going into the centre.
Meanwhile the ROW north of Broad Street is to be utilised for the extension of the London Underground's East London Line.
Based on the number and size of office buildings, it looks as if the Docklands is a very big employment center too.
It is. But of course it is of pretty recent date. Although you lack affection for the Docklands Light Railway - which you will admit is a matter of personal taste - the DLR has been very successful as a result. And the main office concentration at Canary Wharf is also served by the Jubilee Line.
The second largest employment concentration in Greater London, however, after the central area itself, is actually Heathrow Airport and its surroundings.
1. Check out the Metropolitan and Piccadilly tube express runs, which has been unspoiled by the dreaded speed timer.
2. Check out Highbury and my favorite soccer team "the Arsenal", which has it's own tube stop.
It does indeed, complete with extra facilities to handle large crowds, like Shea Stadium on the 7, or Olympiastadion station in Berlin. The Arsenal station on the Piccadilly Line was originally called Gillespie Road.
But as noted by Rail Blue in another thread on this board, Arsenal made an attempt recently to move to a new location near Kings Cross, which would have necessitated re-opening a closed station (York Road) further south on the Piccadilly Line to serve it. Could still happen, depending on what happens to the Kings Cross site once the Channel Tunnel Rail Link construction is finished in 2007 or so.
According to my map, the nearest stations to Ashburton Grove are Holloway Road and Arsenal, and Arsenal is the winner!
At least Arsenal are going to stay in roughl;y the same area - unlike Wimbledon FC, who have moved to Milton Keynes! (To the total disgust of their supporters - think Brooklyn Dodgers.)
The other view is that Arsenal already made their "Milton Keynes" decision a long time ago. They're only called Arsenal because they used to play in Woolwich.
About 13 or 14 miles by road. The Thames gets in the way too. By rail it takes a long time:
6 mins - Piccadilly line Arsenal to King's X St Pancras
5 mins to make the transfer
11 mins - Northern Line King's X St Pancras to London Bridge
8 mins to make the transfer
20 mins - BR(S) London Bridge to Woolwich Arsenal
TOTAL: 50 mins
Oh and don't even think about busing it - the quickest you can do it in is 1 hour 48 mins by riding the 19 to Mount Pleasant, then the 63 to the Elephant & Castle, then the 53.
Well, their move from Woolwich did take place in 1913!
As long as their new stadium is close to Highbury I'd be cool with having a new Arsenal stadium.
Agreed. I really quite like the York Road idea.
Having them play in the new Wembley (even though it's supposed to have 90,000 seats) would not be cool. It wouldn't be their own stadium.
The new Wembley is the dumbest project ever, with the possible exceptions of the Jubilee Line Extension and the Millennium Dome.
Dagenham Dock station on the LTS (and in 5-10 years time the DLR too).
You need to look at a map which has all the lines on it.
From the window of the fleabag, er, hotel where I was staying, I had a pretty good view of Arsenal stadium. I was quite surprised at how small it was.
You can get to Man U's Old Trafford ground by using the Manchester Metrolink LRVs - which I imagine get pretty overcrowded on match days.
Having said that, 38,000 is probably sufficient capacity - few Premier League matches get as big a crowd as that. The safety measures brought in after the Hillsborough disaster reduced the capacity of Premier League grounds.
I noticed street signs around the stadium area restricting parking during match days.
What happened in the Hillsborough disaster? I'm still somewhat of a new "soccer" fan. Also do you think 38,000 is enough for a team like Arsenal? I figure if they construct their Ashburton Grove stadium, they'll get 60,000 on the regular (except for minor tournaments such as the Carling Cup). They'd truly be on Man U's level.
An FA Cup semifinal between Liverpool and Nottingham Forest was taking place at the neutral venue of Hillsborough stadium in Sheffield. Believing that there was danger of the rival Liverpool and Forest fans rioting, the police channeled them into their respective ends of the ground by separate routes. The spectator areas were fenced off from the pitch to prevent pitch invasions, and different sections of the terraces were also fenced from each other. Basically, the Liverpool fans were all channeled into the same narrow entrance and finished up in the same section of terraces; more people were being let in at the back when the terraces were full, and those at the front were being crushed against the fence. Police on the pitch thought the crowd was rioting when in fact they were screaming for help. By the time the police realised what was happening and cut the fence to release the crowd onto the pitch, over 100 people were dead. They were all Liverpool supporters, so this was a city-wide tragedy for Liverpool.
The ensuing enquiry led to a legal requirement that all Premier League grounds must be all-seated (traditionally soccer grounds had terraces for standing spectators), and outlawed the fences around the pitch. The all-seater requirement has reduced the capacity of the grounds.
It would be difficult to indicate this on a diagram (A & B stations or Express stations shown differently) The stopping pattern is indicated on platform indicators and presumably shown on Platform or published (but not on the net ! ) Timetables.
At the time of the widening and electrification to Upminster the area was being developed and thus more stations were needed.
*All* Met trains are "express", in the NYC sense, between Baker Street and Wembley Park - the "local" stops are provided by the Jubilee Line. In addition, some Met trains skip stops north of Wembley Park, as you say. To complicate things further, commuter rail (Chiltern Trains) runs alongside as well, and this can be regarded as the "superexpress", running non-stop from Harrow-on-the-Hill to Marylebone.
The Met Timetable continues the Metropolitan Railway tradition of being a "Main Line" railway. :-)
I understood the staffing was increased to cater for emergencies as a result of the Kings Cross fire and later incidents. Perhaps the staff are standing around waiting for another "Chancery Lane" ? Detraining from a train in the single line tunnels can be a labor -intensive exercise.
wayne
True.
"so people drive less."
Not necessarily true. The vast majority of employees in the UK as a whole drive to work - the train commuting culture is only really strong around London and (to a *much* smaller extent) the other big cities. Average car mileage is something like 15,000 miles/year, I think. What is it in the USA?
"Also, traffic in the cities can be murder,"
True.
"because, well, England is an island, after all."
I'm not sure why being on an island makes should make traffic worse than being on a continent. It's not as if we are a tiny island city-state like Hong Kong or Singapore - or Manhattan (8-). The key issue really is density of population. The main central part of England - say from the southern edge of greater London to the northern edges of greater Liverpool, Manchester and Leeds - is densely populated overall. Town planning policies have also restricted low-density sprawl and kept population densities in towns and cities quite high, which is both good and bad. The higher densities make public transit more viable, but they also make the traffic congestion worse.
More expensive fuel simply leads to more fuel efficient cars. I bet the average European car can go twice as far with 1 liter of gas compared to the average American car (probably an SUV).
And last but not least: The destruction caused by WWII saved many a train/subway/streetcar system in Europe.
Hell for our friends in Albany, that's springtime.
"And that's traffic and weather together on the ones."
You guys up in LA set the time; earliest I can be at LAUS is 9:00 (and that is IF Amtrak is on time...) as I absolutely HATE driving into LA.
Any more news on this?
#6 Southbound from Parkchester East 177 to Third Ave 138:
Average 12 minutes express and 16 or 17 minutes local, so the express saves 4 or 5 minutes
#6 Northbound from Third Ave 138 to Parkchester East 177:
Average 13 minutes express and 16 minutes local, so the express saves 3 minutes.
When northbound express service begins, the first two locals and expresses all take 15 minutes, so there is no difference. The schedule does not show whether this timing persists throughout the afternoon, but it would be surprising.
At night the journey takes 15 minutes (local only) in either direction.
The express track bypasses nine stations, some of which have very low ridership.
Upon arriving Flatbush Av., the 2 train that took me there leaves about 4 minutes later. Now I'm on the other side of the platform as the 2 train leaves, and I see the headlights of another 2 train waiting outside the terminal. The second 2 pulls in, 4-5 minutes later, this train leaves and another 2 arrives.
We finally pull out of Flatbush, pass Newkirk Av. then strangely for every stop until Franklin Av., we waited at a red signal for 2 minutes each. At each station, we waited for a train from the opposite direction to pull into the station before we left. Most of them were 2 trains. Why would we wait for a train in the opposite direction to pull in before we got the green signal?
Were there supposed to be this many 2 trains in about a 30-minute time period? According to the schedules, the headways are an average of 8 minutes during that time of day.
Off-link:
I nominate Bowling Green to Wall St. as a runner-up for the two stations separated by the shortest distance.
This has been discussed before. I think someone came up with an actual answer, though you're probably going to have to find the answer to that in the archives someplace.
There may have been a delay in the service causing the trains to become as bunched up as they are.
Why ask the question when the answer is already known?
David
The question was answered by the person who asked it, one "Railfan Pete," the same person whose post I'm responding to now. If the schedule says trains should be running every 8 minutes and they're not running every 8 minutes, then they're not running according to the schedule. Why say that they're scheduled to run every 8 minutes and then ask whether trains every less-than-8-minutes is normal?
David
The entire trip (Flatbush to Nereid) took 1 hr. 40 mins., about 20 minutes overtime. What are some causes of the delays mentioned above? We also were shaky going from 14th to GCT.
BTW, I saw a full (IIRC) Redbird trainset at E 180 Yard on the right side of the tracks facing northbound. Among the #'s were 7774 and 94xx (I couldn't recall). What is this set still doing here?
That Redbird set been there for some time. My Put-In use to be right next to it.
When a train arrives into the terminal stop and is scheduled to be taken OOS and into the yard or storage track, it's called at "Lay-Up".
So sometime you will see PI and LU as abbreviated forms while reading messages in Subtalk. Just so that you will know.
avid
No. No. And No.
No. No. And No.
But it could use a good cleaning.
For the answer to questions one and two is no. I think Chambers St. on the Nassau line is long overdue for a renovation so they can restore it to the grand station that it once was.
You mean ...restore it to the grand station it never was...
: ) It was built like that to accept trains arriving from the Brooklyn Bridge. This was never built.
On the other hand... LIRR trains used to terminate there, and this they will never do again.
Elias
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wire/ny-bc-ny--highline0115jan15,0,3671434,print.story?coll=ny-ap-regional-wire
City Can Tear Down Abandoned High Line Railway
By SAMUEL MAULL
Associated Press Writer
January 15, 2004, 5:20 PM EST
NEW YORK -- The city can demolish the High Line, an abandoned 1.45 miles of elevated railway over Manhattan's West Side, without submitting a land use plan for review, a state appeals court ruled Thursday.
In a 4-0 decision, the state Supreme Court's Appellate Division reversed a lower court ruling that stopped the city from tearing down the High Line, a spur built some 70 years ago to remove dangerous freight rail crossings from street level.
A group that included the City Council, Manhattan Borough President C. Virginia Fields, and community groups living near the High Line, had sued to stop demolition of the railway so it could be used as a park or other public-use facility.
In April 2002, Justice Diane Lebedeff ruled in their favor, saying that before the city could raze the 18-foot-high spur, it had to submit a plan to the Uniform Land Use Review Procedure (ULURP) and to community residents for comment.
But the appeals judges disagreed, saying "neither of the two grounds cited by (Lebedeff) as bases for ULURP review, namely, that the plan involves an acquisition of property by the city, and that it requires a change in the city map, are supportable."
Although the appeals court ruled against the petitioners, their hope for the railway's future may nevertheless come to pass.
The move to tear down the High Line began with former Mayor Rudolph Giuliani and was supported by a group called the Chelsea Property Owners Association. But his successor, Mayor Michael Bloomberg, has expressed an interest in preserving the railway.
In December 2002, Bloomberg asked the U.S. Department of Transportation for a "certificate of interim trail use" so the city could negotiate an agreement with the New York Central, owner of the High Line, to allow its use as a public space.
Jeffrey D. Friedlander of the city's Law Department said the city was pleased that the appeals court said Bloomberg could make decisions about the High Line while rejecting the City Council's "overly broad interpretation of its authority."
"The decision does not change the City's efforts to preserve the High Line as a public amenity," Friedlander said.
Randy Mastro, lawyer for the Chelsea property owners, said he was pleased that "the appeals court vindicated this important legal principle, that the mayor has the right to make this decision without going through the cumbersome ULURP process."
But Mastro would not say what his group plans to do now since Bloomberg seems to be in favor of preserving the High Line.
John R. Cuti, a lawyer who represented the City Council, Fields, and the other petitioners, could not be reached for comment.
The High Line was built to accommodate two trains side-by-side and was originally 13 miles long. The rise of trucking in the 1950s led to a drop in rail freight, and the southernmost portion was torn down in the 1960s, followed by another chunk in 1993.
The remaining stretch of the railway begins in the yards of 34th Street, skims the Hudson River, turns east for two blocks and then swoops south through the Chelsea area, ending on Gansevoort Street in the Meatpacking District of lower Manhattan.
The judges noted that the railway, which has not been used for any freight rail service since 1982, crosses 22 city streets and passes through several buildings.
Copyright © 2004, The Associated Press
He only pursued the appeal to reverse the precedent created by the Supreme Court decision.
Mark
A linear park
Mark
Rememeber this folks if CSX wants a piece of that "Jersey Tunnel" some day. Let CPRail have it instead. :)
avid
avid
Mark
I understand the problem of just how many housing appartments there are in the area, but those residents moved there with knowledge of the existance of the high line. They knew the risk they were taking by moving to that building.
No offense, you're a good guy but don't you think they should have more say in what goes on in their neighborhood than a kid from Long Island?
Another example. Someone lives in an area with railroad tracks in the backyard. It is between stations, there is no station for miles either way. They moved there with that knowledge. They don't mind the trains, they are used to them, being railfans they actually like them. All of the sudden the railroad decides to build a station right there. That will bring loads of vehicular traffic taking resident's parking, loud people in the area 24-7, litter, grafitti, etc. Railfans living miles away post on forums that the station must be built and the residents bought their houses with full knowledge of the tracks there. Don't you think they have a right to complain???
Another example. I live in East Meadow near the Nassau Coliseum. They decide one day to hold a KKK rally there. It is expected that 20,000 KKK members will attend, staying over at the local motels, eating at the local diners, patronizing the local convenience stores, etc. Throngs of people in sheets and hoods will be walking the streets. Don't you think residents have a right to complain, even though the Coliseum was there before them??
By the way, as an old fuck, I was there way before the Coliseum, I was there when it was still Mitchell Field and bombers & fighters were taking off there!!! :)
As for the station scenario, I think that if the RR wants to build a station and that location is the best, then they have to. People have to learn that they should make sacrafices to help the neighborhood and the residents that live there.
BTW, I can read the fine print (:
How?
It is not something that can be simply rezoned.
Of course it can. The City Council votes on and passes an act which changes the zoning from M to C or R.
It is a permenant structure.
No man-made structure is permanent. I'm sure somebody said the same thing about the el above Third Avenue (or any other avenue that had them).
People have to learn that they should make sacrafices to help the neighborhood and the residents that live there.
NO! No one should have to make any sacrifices. Why should I make a sacrifice for you? People should only do things for themselves, in exchange for something, or if it makes them feel good.
"NO! No one should have to make any sacrifices. Why should I make a sacrifice for you? People should only do things for themselves, in exchange for something, or if it makes them feel good."
You, sir, are a true NIMBY
The High Line is not "zoned."
You, sir, are a true NIMBY
Thank you. You however are the real selfish one. You want things to be built just because you would like to see them built and for no other reason, and let everyone else be damned!
You go on believing your crazy lil notions and I'll go on backing up my ideas with facts.
New tracks. Refurbished structure (in many cases could cost as much as a new structure), stations, third rail, substations, signals.
Yep, that's all nothing.
And FYI, everything I say that should be built has a reason
And I told you what that reason is. You think it would benefit someone, but it really doesn't.
I'll go on backing up my ideas with facts.
You haven't done that so far.
I think the option of saving it was eliminated when a truck fell through the deck and onto the street. Then again, I think the same happened with the Gowanus not too long ago...
Such a line would not serve people going borough to borough or beyond.
Also, with your logic, the S is a failure too. Hell, any line running in only one borough is a failure. Hmm, interesting. Last I checked, the S was going fairly well, but hey, what do I know. Maybe I'm going creazy and seeing things like how crowded it is every time I ride it. Well, thank you doctor, any medication you suggest for my demensia?
Show me how a 7 extension would benefit JUST ONE person who previously used the West Side Highway.
"Such a line would not serve people going borough to borough or beyond."
That sentance clearly shows that you fail to recognize the 7's status of an inter-borough rapid transit line.
No, it shows that I never mentioned the 7. I just took the liberty to read up the thread. I never mentioned the 7 nor did you in any post to which I responded. Your bringing up of the 7 is a HERRING because you cannot successfully demonstrate that a rapid transit line has replaced the West Side Highway. Even if you choose to assume that I spoke of a "high line rapid transit route" specifically as the 7 and not generally it still doesn't validate your criticism. The 7 and the West Side Highway are on different axes, they do not and did not serve the same purpose.
IIRC, $17,000,000 PER INCH may have had something to do with it.
Elias
Regards,
Jimmy
You figure of operating either the L or 7 line running up there, why not both? The L can cover south of 34 Street while the 7 covers north and east and both can share a terminal at the Post Office on the spur assuming it's still there(been a while since I've been there). If Amtrak is moving into that building, that would be an ideal plan and would cost less than tunneling under an already confining place. Since Bloomberg wants to save the High Line, that means the West Side Stadium plan can't be done if the line is saved. Amen to that. And the 7 can be extended and share the open cut with the Amtrak Empire line south of 41 Street with a wee bit of new construction and a new approach to the High Line can be easily built.
Regards,
Jimmy
The other option for the L is that route to Farely Building(the new Amtrak one).
What ya think?
As for a walking tour, email me, monkmonk438@hotmail.com
It's not the court's job to evaluate the merits of saving the High Line. The court merely ruled on whether the City had the legal right to demolish it. Courts interpret the law; they don't set policy.
For those who want the High Line converted to an elevated transit, keep dreaming. It ain't gonna happen.
Yes it did, that's why they only realized them when they became practical.
CSX has already put $1 million into rehabilitating the structure. The line was recently inspected and found to have no structural deficiencies.
Da Hui
I welcome this: it means that service is much more likely to happen.
Does anyone know where maglev has been installed over an appreciable distance, say >5 miles?
John
NY Times article
Mark
"Does anyone know where maglev has been installed over an appreciable distance, say >5 miles?"
The only commercial maglev line that I'm aware of that's currently operating is the demonstrator line in Shanghai, serving that city's airport. It's noteworthy that China has opted not to build maglev between Shanghai and Beijing so soon after the Shanghai maglev opened.
This is good news for anyone who feels that network compatibility is more important than "whoopee-do" technology. One of the best things about the French TGV and German ICE trains is their ability to continue beyond new high-speed lines onto the conventional network. This brings the benefits of the new, higher speed, service to areas beyond those directly on the new lines. None of this is possible with a maglev system, which requires its own separate, incompatible infrastructure.
I don’t think that China has the technology/resources infrastructure and resources to make a huge unproven technology project over 663 miles (as the crow flies, more for track miles!).
TGVs or Bullet trains will do the job nicely, thank you.
For the past several months some E-bay users have been getting E-Mail messages that report that their E-bay account information has been found to be incorrect, expired or simply needs to be updated. The messages are replete with very official E-Bay looking messages with E-bay logos. They direct you to a website where you can 'update' your personal info including your E-bay password and in some cases, your credit info.
These are scams called SPOOF MAIL. Do not reply to them. E-Bay has set up an E-mail address where such messages can be forwarded so they can be investigated. It's spoofmail@ebay.com. For those who may have replied to one of these messages and has already given sensative credit info, I guess you know what you need to do.
The preceeding has been a public service announcement.
Bill & Company might make sofware like swiss cheese, but not patches via e-mail.
I figure if Earthlink is going to shut off my account because info isn't "updated" as the e-mail said, I'll find it logged off and then call their voice line to see what's up. Hasn't shut down yet....
I have to give the scammers credit for doing a very good job on the graphics but I always forward it to AOL's management.
Those of us who are computer savy obvioulsy know a scam when we see one. The scammers are really hoping that whoever they send to are not as smart.
Or reply with phony info so they'll get their hopes up for a little while until hey realize they've been fooled too.
I did that once to one of those emails - everything I entered was an expletive or variation of an expletive.
I did forward one e-mail to the FTC though - it was one of those scams asking to assist in transferring money out of Nigeria.
Some spammer got your e-mail address from somewhere.
Of course, all those cabs that passed going into Manhattan couldn't pick me up, because it's Queens. AND the G train terminated at Court Square BECAUSE the signals were out at Smith/9. So it was ANOTHER mile walk home. And THEN, this morning the 7 was running late due to signals. I live in Hunters Point on top of the densest tangle of cabs, subways, trains and ferries in the region, and I'm DEAD OF EXPOSURE. I'm sorry ... am I being a little dramatic?
Thanks, everyone here got a good laugh out of your title. But in a seriousness, your situation sucks. Stop telling David Cole how great LIC is.
A new Comfort Inn Hotel just opened off of Queensboro Plaza station. I'm sure the customers will be there only for short term stays with a "newly found discovery" outside on the stip. Nothing much has changed since I left there last Spring, still crummy and seedy as ever.
You know you could have changed for the E at Times Square/42nd and saved yourself the walk from QBP to QP (you would have still had to walk from the BMT Broadway line over to the IND 8th Av line at Times Sq but you would have at least been underground).
There has been some talk about a passenger connector between QBP and QP but it has but nothing but talk.
Be interesting to see how an elevator is placed between these two stations.
Here's a link that goes even further into that proposal. It appears to be a plan to revitalize the Queens Plaza, calling it a 'Midtown East.'
Click here
If there are any SubTalkers who would like to talk about how to get involved with the Seashore Trolley Museum in Kennebunkport, Maine, come find me. I'll be wearing my WCBS baseball hat. We start training for new operators in April.
Even if you think you can come up to Seashore only a few times during the season, that's OK. Many of the operating principles are the same as those at Branford (though our rules and procedures differ somewhat); there are many who are qualified at both Museums.
An update from the Minneapolis-based StarTribune:
http://www.startribune.com/stories/462/4319865.html
I've often thought that given the climate in Minneapolis, more of the line should have been put underground. I'm it was prohibitively expensive, but imagine how nice it would be to have a year-round snow-free route, not to mention not having to wait for trains outside in the Minnesota winter.
Mark
Mark
Is there a proofreader in the house?
1Available9
Just check out the letter T in "NEXT."
Next could be abbreviated NXT.
<5> NEREID AV-238 ST (which takes up almost the whole side without the "next")
I recall the ones on the fan trip tended to maxaround 65 - 70ish...
After we made a scheduled stop at Hillside, the engineer got a call the dreaded LIRR call, "Engineer, go to channel 4.". With that, dozens of passengers began filling the first car. "Smoke Issuing in the 2nd car." was the explanation. The crew cut out the traction control, the brakes and the AC & lights and we were underway again with a negligable delay.
Once we hit Mineola and the heard thinned out I said to the engineer that I thought he took alot on faith, not knowing where the smoke was actually coming from and running at MAS. Had a contactor in the groups been welded we could have ended up melting grids or worse. Had it been a locked pinion and running at 80 MPH we could have had another incident like the NJT event of not to long ago. I suppose, to him, I sounded like just another train buff so he simply shrugged.
Had this happened on NYCT, the train would have been immediately discharged, especially if the cause of the smoke had not been determined. Of course, I was greatful that we were not put off the train into the frigid night but I would have felt better if the crew spent a few more moments to determine where the smoke was coming from - especially since there was likely a Car inspector or two available at Hillside to lend a hand.
Since there was available car maintainers at Hillside, someone should've investigated the second car of the train. A tragedy might have occured, thank goodness that was not the case. Better to be late and be safe than to be sorry.
Along the way, I noticed that lighting at some of the stations were dimmer than usual. 14th Street was almost at "abandoned station" level.
I take the same ride and everything look FINE.
The Chicago Transit Authority will be releasing a "smart card" transit card next week they're calling the Chicago Card Plus. Like the regular Chicago Card, it's a proximity card for paying fares on the CTA and Pace. Unlike the regular Chicago Card, it is entirely web or phone based, and is recharged with a credit card or via pre-tax employer transit programs. It can hold either a 30-day pass or value.
Preserver de saints nous! Est-ce que ce n'est pas illégal? Que le ministère de la pureté de langue disent-ils?
Shoot. I don't speak French, yet I can almost understand that!
"Saints preserve us! Isn't that (wouldn't that be) illegal? The Ministry of Keeping The Language Pure would ban it?"
Close?
The last comment: "What would the Ministry of Language Purity Say?"
A: "À la guillotine avec eux!"
Mark
Mark
http://www.masstransitmag.com/
Tramways and Urban Transit
No injuries were reported.
It was not immediately clear how the accident happened.
A second train was being sent to the area to pick up about 400 passengers stranded aboard the derailed train.
-----------------
Currently, there are shuttles from Kingsland to Rutherford according to njtransit.com
Ok, so, is this onbe due to Amtrak's inability to maintain the track, or NJT's inability to maintain equipment? Kinda levels the score, i think it was 2 - 1 NJT until this....
HUMAN ERROR PRELIMINARY CAUSE FOR ONE-CAR DERAILMENT ON MAIN LINE: Preliminary findings suggest that human error may have caused a low-speed derailment of one car on NJ TRANSIT’s Main Line Train 1204 at 7:54 a.m. today in West Secaucus. The train remained upright, there were no injuries to passengers and crews. NJ TRANSIT’s senior management and police personnel arrived at the scene within 10 minutes of the incident to assist customers who remained on the heated train. Customers were also given immediate and regular service updates, as well as access to cell phones. To keep the passengers safe and warm, a rescue train was positioned nose to nose with the derailed car so that they could walk from one car to another, and did not have to go into the freezing temperature. The transfer took about 13 minutes. The rescue train stopped in Secaucus for about 160 of the customers for service to Midtown, before arriving in Hoboken. While the investigation is continuing, preliminary findings show that Train 1204 derailed after field personnel improperly identified a frozen switch, and consequently authorized the train to proceed over the switch. The switch was not properly aligned due to snow and ice buildup. We expect to conclude the investigation early next week. Regular service resumed at 1:15 p.m. today, and this afternoon, rush hour service is expected to operate normally. To accommodate Main Line customers traveling between Kingsland and Hoboken, where service was suspended, NJ TRANSIT provided buses from Kingsland Station to Rutherford Station, where they were able to take a train from Rutherford to Hoboken Terminal. Train 1204 was scheduled to arrive in Hoboken at 7:52 a.m.; the train departed Waldwick at 6:53 a.m. (NJ Transit - posted 1/16)
Ok, so, is this one due to Amtrak's inability to maintain the track, or NJT's inability to maintain equipment? Kinda levels the score, i think it was 2 - 1 NJT until this....
Newsday/Chicago Tribune story on CTA program here
Has the MTA ever considered this?
I usually pay for my pay-per-ride card by credit card. I am horrible at remembering the balance on my card, and it sucks when I get the insufficient fare message, then having to turn around only to wait five to ten minutes on line to refill my MetroCard.
They do this for Reduced Fare customers, why not regular pay-per-ride customers?
You obviously haven't read George Orwell's 1984. Shades of Big Brother, in my opinion.
And I'm tired of getting violation notices for someone who drives a mid '90s Cadillac on the Garden State Parkway down near Atlantic City. His license plate has an "88" where mine has "80". Don't they ever cross-check the photo to the vehicle type? It's pretty hard to confuse a big Caddy with a '65 Ford Falcon Ranchero. Needless to say, I don't even have EZPass, nor have I driven that stretch of the Parkway in the last couple of years.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I thought it was interesting when we moved the EZPass from the blue 95 Pontiac Grand Am to the green 02 Toyota Sienna. We got the "Call EZPass" thing at the tollbooth, and we called them - they just wanted to make sure someone didn't steal our EZPass because they didn't recognize the car.
So are credit cards, bank accounts, driver's licenses and pretty much everything where your name appears in a computer system. If you don't like it, change your name and move to a shack in Montana.
Step 1. Get a Sharpie.
Step 2. Write balance on the back of card. Store securely.
Step 3. Hail Tokens!
Something that Jeffery Rosen and everyone else should be pleased with. On the rookie's first day, after leaving work, he almost becomes a victim of an attempted robbery but manages to turn the tables on the thugs.
Congrats to the officer!
Just take those guys and ship them off to Mexico after they spend a 10 years in jail!
Mark
And they should be deported back to where they rightfully belong, in a sewer in Mexico City.
Apparently they alerted one law enforcement authority, in the worst way possible. They next expected that, serves them right.
please reply to this asap
Are you asking us or telling us? Punctuation would help.
wayne
B: R68's/R68A's
D: R68's
Q: R68A's
W: R40 slants
N: Whatever's left over at CI
David
Best estimate for peak times based on number of put-ins and lay-ups.
Then again, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong. Who wants pie?
[sigh]
Your style of railfanning requires full-width cabs?
[sigh]
But there's a conspiracy afoot here too ... since the 40's are allegedly on the "fast track" to a watery grave, then the B line would probably be among the earliest recipients of the 160's when they come in. Just bring a raincoat when ya ride. :)
Does this mean the remaining R40M cars in ENY are going down south soon?
Geez, I hate to see the depression when the R42's go!
On another note, I am being stalked by R-42 #4888-4889! And what is up with their bizarre brake sound? They sound like mainline Redbirds and R-32A's.
David
Hopes still crushed :(
I still remember the joy I experienced when I first saw the R110A ...
How much do you want to bet that those R40 B consists will find work on the weekends as Q or N trains?
Okay, then I take it back :)
FIRST OF ALL THE B WILL MOSTLY BE UNDERGROUND AND OUTSIDE WHEN IT RAINS U WILL BE SOAKED ANYWAYS.
THE D SHOULD USE THE 68'S BECAUSE OF THE CONCOURSE RIDERS
SINCE THERE IS CUT BACK B SERVICE ON WEEKENDS SEND IT TO DYCKMAN ST OR 168 ST AND USE PIECES OF SHIT LIKE THE 40SLANT AND MAYBE SOME 68'S
THE C CAN GO BACK TO THE CONCOURSE AND USE 32'S AND 38'S LIKE IT ORIGINALLY WAS.
Q 68A-S AND THE 42'S
D 68\68A'S
N 68/40M'S
W NOTHIN BUT 40 SLANTS
The ones who are most disadvantaged by the new service plan, however, are the CPW riders. Their B service is being cut back by nearly two hours on weekdays. Their service will be converted from exclusively being the most reliable R68s to being exclusively the much less reliable R40s. This includes the first 10 trains out in the morning (fully one-fourth of the entire R40 fleet), which have been sleeping overnight or over the weekend at Concourse. I can just imagine that with any minor problem a train would have to be taken out of service and limp all the way to Coney Island for repairs. And unless the dispatcher at Concourse is a generous sort who also happens to have an extra R68 to borrow from the D, that train will simply be cancelled. I can foresee this happening a lot, as one-fourth of the R40 fleet will not be available for maintenance at Coney nights and weekends. Breakdowns may happen a lot. And without a lot of yelling and screaming from CPW passengers, the situation will continue until the arrival of the R160s.
BTW, I am not a CPW rider.
That's odd sice Concourse has the cleanest cars I've ever seen. Except for one car, that is (please break out the tuna jokes!) :-)
As for maintenance personnel, train-em, schrain-em, we don’t care. Give the bill to Pataki!
LOL!!!
B- 40 slants/40 m's/(mostly 143's)
Um, no...
D- 68's/ 42's
Maybe after the R-160's arrive, but even then I doubt it.
Q- 68's/46's
Now it's not impossible for a train of R-46 to end up on the Q (although it's about as likely as an R-38 ending up on the E). In fact I had once heard there was an R-32 consist that made one trip daily on the (Q), and I did see ONE photo of an R-32 on the Q, I presume it may have been an F consist move from CI to Jamaica that ran in service to 57th and then ran light to Jamaica (or vice versa). But for R-46's to be regularly assigned in noticeable quantities to the Q is about as likely as them building a 3rd track down Jamaica Avenue today.
W- 42's
Maybe, after the R-160's come in, but not in February.
V- 32's/40 slants (8cars only)
WTF??????????
R-40's are NOT going to the V. Pushing aside the riduculous notion that it's even possible, Jamaica Yard can't fit all their R-32's/R-46 layups and R-40 V layups on top of it. Not only that, the V doesn't go anywhere near Coney Island, the only shop in the system that has R-40's.
8 cars? I could see the rationale for it, but I'm doubtful.
G- 68a's 6 car sets
That would actually fit with the previous statement; if the V was shortened then the G would become longer. But I'm still doubtful.
As for R-68's on the G, I had proposed a theory awhile ago on how R-68's could end up on the G, but that was thrown out the window a few days ago.
N- 68's/46's
Not unless the N goes back to Queens Blvd, and I don't see that happening anytime soon.
R- 32's/46's/few 68a's
The R apparently will be served sufficiently by R-32's and R-46's from Jamaica.
And besides, where are all the rest of the R-68A's supposed to go?
For these reasons, you don't want to make frivolous changes. With lines changing and service being added changes in car assignemnts must be made. The changes were not done frivolously and involved much debate and some arguing.
I don't either, unless they want to send the V to Brodway Brooklyn through the Chrystie connection.
*Big smile on face*
Can't do that. The (V) runs on the "local" tracks, only the "express" tracks connect to Brooklyn via the Christie.
You *could* send the (V) to Brooklyn via Rutgers, and *that* would make sense.
Elias
Are you sure about that? I don't think so unless something has changed. The KK was a 6th Ave local.
The Local Tracks *can* make it to the Williamsburg Bridge.
And just *where* would you terminate this train? Archer? Replace the (Z)?
Elias
Fine then the 68a's can possibly fill in C spots in 207 st yd Its a possibility and move some more 32's to coney island
Words cannot describe just how dumb that sounded.
R32s are GONE from CIY. 207 handles R32s and I think r38s. I don't think they need to worry about another car class.
I don't mind what is assigned, though I'm leaning more towards having R68s or R68As on the B.
Make that the 80's for the R42's. The R42's have been the mainstay of the Eastern Division (JMZL Lines) since they were rebuilt around 1989. The R40M's have also been mostly on the JMZL lines too. As for the R40's, yes you are right, the slants were the mainstay of the B in the 90's, although they also found their way to the L and M as East New York had a few of them too. I never saw one on a J or Z though since they were rebuilt.
That was the wierdest experience I ever had on the subway.
R143's? no. The R143's are exclusively for the L and M.
D-68's/ 42's
Maybe. I won't rule that out.
Q-68's/46's
N-68's/46's
Where will the R46's come from? The Q and N will be out of Coney Island yard, and the R46's there are EXCLUSIVELY for the F.
W-42's
V-32's/40 slants (8cars only)
G-68a's 6 car sets
R-32's/46's/few 68a's
The R68's dont operate out of Jamaica Yard. And the R40S's don't operate out of Jamaica. And Coney Island won't provide for the R and V.
Assuming this is real, please tell me where your sources come from
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make by illustrating a mass rearrangement of rolling stock for nearly all of the B Division.
First off, some of these changes can't come lightly because rolling stock for NYCT are given a designated yard where their parts and maintenance takes place, and whatever line is serviced by that yard will have those cars its route.
What you done here is give every line you listed rolling stock that is not currently assigned to it, and which are based in other yards. that's a big no-no in today's NYCT management that oversees and makes decisions about car assignments as almost all lines--except that A and C trains are have equipment based out of one yard only. For example, you have the R with equipment based out of both Jamaica (R32/R46) and Coney Island (R68). Unless R68's are coming to Jamaica, this won't be possible, and unless the R is to going to have equipment based out both Jamaica and Coney Island, it's not possible.
Your "suggestion" nearly harkens back to the days of the B Division where equipment went anywhere on the any line--with restrictions on the 75 foot cars from operating on the EAstern Division lines, of course--and those times are gone. While the idea to have a line with equipment from two or more yards, I'll use the V's car assigment as you put it, for this example with R40's from CI and R32's from Jamaica, is conceivable, it can be done, but in reality, it is impractical from a management and operational standpoint. Both CI and Jamaica are too far apart, to a line such as the V to have equipment interchanged on it; it would make more sense to the F based out two locations this way, not the V, but that is not going to happen anyway. Todays, strict assignment of cars assignment to yard, or what I would call "yard specialization" makes for sense, for repairs/maintenance, keeping an inventory of spare parts and lets the train crews operate rolling stock that is familiar to them or that they had trained with, instead of operating a different type of subway car at any of the time of the day.
If this was some of fantasy subway scenario that you're posting, that's fine, but you failed to clarify that point, and as a result, from what I read of the responses, you've received a lot of criticism for this post, because to just simply put a random car assignments listing out there, without any explanation of what point you're trying to make. But if this is not some fantasy but an actual suggestion to move around real equipment" to "real lines", then probably you should have given this some more thought, before posting.
B: Slant r-40's and R-40M
D: R-68A's
M: R-42's at least until the new cars come in.
N: R-68's
Q: R-68's
R: R-32's and R-46's
V: R-46's
W: R-42's (the ones that used to be on the L)
I think someone else said the same thing about the car assignments. I'm confused with the reasoning behind putting slants in the Concourse yard. The reasoning behind the B/C northern terminal switch doesn't fly anymore.
Personally, I still don't get it. If that's the reasoning, then the Q should be R68's because there are exactly 17 sets of 68's in CI yard right now. As for the 68A's, there are 21 sets at CI yard, so there are 4 sets left over. I still think it might be the other way around (with the N getting the 68A's), because it doesn't make sense to me to change the entire Q fleet just to add two trains to regular service.
Rush Hours only(peak direction 7 trains): 59th Street Manhattan, Rockaway Park, Queens. Express
(B) 168th Street, Manhattan -Brighton Beach Brooklyn
Middays, Rush Hours, and Weekday evenings until 10:00pm Express between Brighton Beach and 59th Street, local north of 59th Street
(C) Middays and Rush Hours: Bedford Park Boulevard(200th Street),Bronx - Euclid Avenue, Brooklyn local.
Evenings and Weekends: 145th Street Manhattan - Euclid Avenue Brooklyn
(D) Norwood-205th Street, Bronx - Stillwell Avenue Brooklyn.
Middays and Rush Hours: Express in Bronx(peak), Manhattan, and Brooklyn(local south of 36th Street)
Evenings and weekends: Local in Bronx, Express in Manhattan and Brooklyn.
Nights: Express in Manhattan, Local in Bronx and Brooklyn.
NOTE: (D) stops at Dekalb Avenue nights and weekends
(K) Middays, Rush Hours and Evenings: 207th Street, Manhattan - Lefferts Boulevard, Queens. Express in Manhattan and Brooklyn, Local in Queens.
Weekends: 207th Street, Manhattan - Lefferts Boulevard, Queens. Local in Queens, Express in Brooklyn and Manhattan. Local north of 145th Street.
Nights: (Lefferts Shuttle) QUEENS SERVICE ONLY:
All stops from Lefferts Boulevard - Rockaway Boulevard, Queens. Transfer to (A) for service to/from Brooklyn/Manhattan.
(H): Rockaway Park Shuttle, all times from Rockaway Park to Broad Channel, Queens.
(Q) 125th Street, Manhattan - Stillwell Avenue, Brooklyn. Express in Manhattan, Local in Brooklyn.
All times except rush hours: Local north of 57th Street, Manhattan
Rush Hours: express 72nd-116th Street peak direction only(via 3rd track on upper SAS).
Rush Hours only(peak direction 7 trains) from Bedford Park Boulevard(200th Street), Bronx to Stillwell Avenue Brooklyn. Express in Bronx and Manhattan, Local in Brooklyn.
(T) All times except nights: Hanover Square, Manhattan - 205th Street, Bronx. Local in Manhattan and Bronx.
Nights: Hanover Square, Manhattan - 167th Street, Bronx. TRANSFER to (D) at 167th Street for service to/from the upper Bronx
(V) Middays and Rush Hours, Kings Highway, Brooklyn - Forest Hills-71st Avenue(Continental Avenue), Queens(via 2nd Avenue line). Express in Brooklyn(peak),Local in Manhattan and Queens.
Evenings and Weekends*: Hanover Square, Manhattan, 71st Avenue(Continental Avenue), Queens. Local in Manhattan and Queens
* Weekend (V) Queens Boulevard service is pending upon possible opposition for cutting the (G) back to Court Square all times except nights. if (G) has to run to 71st Avenue/Continental Avenue on weekends, (V) service will not run on weekends.
If there is demand can be eliminated and (H) can go to Manhattan(59th Street or 145th Street) Middays and Rush Hours
(C) Middays and Rush Hours: Bedford Park Boulevard(200th Street),Bronx - Euclid Avenue, Brooklyn local.
Evenings and Weekends: 145th Street Manhattan - Euclid Avenue Brooklyn
I would have to disagree with you there. It makes more sense to keep the blue lines with other blue lines, and orange lines with other orange lines.
-Julian
</sarcasm>
So you are planning to add a third track to the upper part of the Second Avenue Subway and extend the line into the Bronx to join the Concourse line, all for the sake of seven trains per hour in the rush hours only?
Sorry, I missed that. But I don't see the need for more service on the Concourse line, as it runs so close to the Jerome Avenue line. Nor do I see the need for a third track on the SAS, especially given that some parts are already built with two tracks.
The D would run every 5-8 minute headways during the rush hour
The SAS/Concourse relieves the Jerome line and allows the <4>(or (4) and <3>) to run during rush hours
wayne
That's for the < A >
Rush Hours only(peak direction 7 trains) from Bedford Park Boulevard(200th Street), Bronx to Stillwell Avenue Brooklyn. Express in Bronx and Manhattan, Local in Brooklyn.
< Q > I think.
If there is demand, < A > can be eliminated and (H) can go to Manhattan(59th Street or 145th Street) Middays and Rush Hours
Just helping him clarify a few things.
Sherlock
The only map that I know of are the ones in the Manhattan Bridge brochure.
So Sherlock, don't you think you got an advance copy of the map instead of thinking it's happening NOW!
lol...
(the map is a precursor to the actual events).
Also, I noticed alot of other tracks in other parts of the island(and some branching off Tren del Sur). Are these trolley lines or what?
What is the true benefit of having full-width cabs as opposed to the closet cabs? Therefore, are all future trains going to have full-widths?
Would you like if i locked you in a broom closet?
--Therefore, are all future trains going to have full-widths?
I think that you can answer that.
The R142's have railfan windows. The windows just mess up the view.
;-)
R142 on the 3 Line(1)
R142 on the 3 Line(2)
R142 on the 3 Line(3)
This is a Times Square Bound Shuttle Train. The Next And Final Stop is Times Square. Stand Clear of the closing doors please. While riding, they may as well give everyone a short history lesson about the shuttle.
This is better service for MTH since they are only two months late. The sets were originally promised for Nov 2003. No word yet on the log overdue R-12's.
I hope to get to see the new R-17 Redbird set sometime this weekend.
Please post comments if you have already seen this new set.
The R-32 sets come with the gold lettering on the storm doors. They were of course the Premier Line and were made in O scale not O gauge.
I hope for more commercialized HO scaled trainsets.
Here's another thing they do. While the train is running, you press the "BELL" button. The next station is announced. When you stop the train at the station, you immediately turn the throttle back up. You hear the doors open, customers walking off and on, some chatter and laughter. Then you'll hear the doors close, brakes release and the train begins to move, all on it's own. If the radio chatter tells the motorman to stay, the train stays until the tower gives them the okay to proceed. Some of the announcements are pretty interesting, too. For example, my with my redbirds comes the announcement, "Command Center, come in for Pelham 1 2 3. We have a situation on board" Of course it would have been nicer if they put that announcement on the #6 train instrad of the #2 but it's always fun to hear. All and all, it's really not that expensive for that technology.
This F train GO would have F trains Manhattan bound operate express from 4th Av to Jay St from 12:01 AM until 5:00 Am Monday morning with station stops being skipped at Smith 9th Sts, Carroll St & Bergen St.
Da Hui
Doesn't the LIRR use switch heaters that look like little fires? Didnt see any at Mineola.
And DAMN it was cold today. Managed to catch a Jamaica train from the OB that should have been there 10 minutes before it was...
In all honesty I don't think I can arrange a time... I've got a term paper to write so my little railfan body is going to be locked in a library for a while.
Mineola probably has electric heaters, since there are only one or two switches there, and that would be easier to set up and operate.
In Jamaica, the plant is 1) older; 2) gas is cheaper; and 3) they have the yard personel to tend to them.
Elias
You can read all about that in the novel.
-----------------------------------
REQUEST FOR EXPRESSIONS OF INTEREST
Development of major electric transmission line occupancies along right-of-way
The Metropolitan Transportation Authority on behalf of MTA Bridges and Tunnels, MTA Long Island Railroad, MTA Metro-North Railroad, MTA New York City Transit and MTA Staten Island Railroad invites companies in the business of contruction and maintenance of electricity transmission lines, to express an interest in utilizing any of the rights of way of any of the aforesaid agencies to construct and maintain new above ground and underground electric transmission line occupancies.
A copy of the Expression of Interest form and, if needed, more information, may be requested:
By email at MTARE@mtahq.org
By telephone at 212-878-7049
By writing to: Metropoloitan Transportation Authority, Real Estate Department, 347 Madison Avenue, New York, NY 10017
The deadline for submission of an expression of Interest is March 1, 2004.
A submission of an expression of Interest will facilitate a firm being considered for any development opportunities that MTA may identify, if any.
(MTA) Metropolitan Transportation Authority
------------------------------------
I COMMEND the MTA for coming up with a REAL answer here - now the question remains will it get done?
I guess there wil be some G jobs cut and the T/O put on the Extra List for the day. I hope I am not one of them.
Robert
correctamundo
Is this still the case? And why was this ever done anyway?
UNLESS, of course if you live along 7th Avenue and are late to your Sunday morning ((::religious::)) committments.........
Sherlock
I found it at the information booth in GCT. The TM store still has the 9/03 edition. They have also run out of the regualr 12/03 edition.
Then you have New Hampshire where every candidate must sit down with crazy Aunt Gertie in her parlor and hold their pinkies out at the proper angle as they sip their tea.
So why nor have the first primary in New York? I suggest the promises we will get, and what the candidates will have to do to pass muster.
Commitment to Transit Test: The winner will promise to build the full SAS as a four- to six-track mainline from Buffalo to Montauk, and charge no fare whatsoecer.
Talent Test: Winner will have to do a rap number before a gangsta posse.
Artistic Test: Each candidate will have a freshly washed Redbird to tag. Originality, talent and color choice will all count. No smocks.
Local Food Appreciation Test: Winner will consume the most hot dogs at the Nathan's contest. Knife and fork disqualifies (John Kerry).
Local patriotic tribute: Most sincere speech at The Tomb of the Unknown Redbird.
Combat Test: Will have to fight a South Bronx Landlord. No Marquis of Queensbury rules.
Cultural Events Test: Will have to at least win an honorable mention in the Halloween Parade.
Another Cultural Events Test: Execute best original dance number with Lizzie Grubman in the Coney Island Mermaid Parade.
Language Arts Test: Must be able to say: "I will fight for you in every language used in New York City schools.
Suburban Knowledge Test: Must be able to pronounce Hauppauge, Copiague, Commack and Yaphank coorectly the first time.
Leadership Test: Must lead a protest group across Brooklyn Bridge in rush hour. One extra point for getting arrested; two for being beaten.
Sports Test: Be on the winning side of a soccer team in St. Albans.
World Knowledge Test: Given the name of any subway stop in the city, identify the dominant ethnic group living there and the primary language spoken.
Food Knowledge Test: Shop at a market in Flushing and eat what you've chosen witout ever asking "what's in that"?
Combat Test: Win a game of Three-Card Monte.
Diedre (sic?) Parker of the MTA said outages were for a TS switch replacement, signals, Steinway tunnel lighting, electrical, track work, and QBP switch replacement.
We've discussed why the 7 seems to be failing so much since the R-62's moved over -- whether they are wearing out the tracks, which, of course, would cause immense long hold-ups. In this case it was the train that broke. Why would the R-62's start breaking down just because they moved into the Steinway tunnels? It's so stupid. They put in new lighting. Big deal. Maybe stainless steel fails in full illumination. Maybe moving a mile further east means they have to wake up earlier with an earlier sunrise. That would sure wear me out, yo.
Anyway, is this why they're scavanging R-142's from the 7 Av? To replace failing R-62's?
I personally like the idea that the R-62's are possessed by the ghosts of the Redbirds. It's so hard to get the creeps these days in those overilluminated tunnels.
Also, my phone crapped out completely in Downtown Manhattan.
I'm assuming that you mean GSM/GPRS, since all Data on T-mo's network is provided via GPRS ( T-mobile will NOT have nationwide EDGE deployed until april, and it would have been nice if they made GPRS reliable firrst, but oh well...) , assuming that you are not using CSD, which you as a sidekick user cannot choose.
Any thoughts???
Description of that station on nycsubway.org:
Woodhaven Boulevard/Queens Mall. Four tracks, two side platforms but space has been allowed for possible future conversion to an express station. Recently renovated, tile color is like Elmhurst and has no border around the name tablet. In the past, the station bore the secondary name of Slattery Plaza but recent maps indicate the secondary name as Queens Mall. The mezzanine features nine I-beam sculptures, and vent chambers to the street. This station was designed for conversion to an express station. The outer walls are curved so that the local track could be rerouted if desired. In addition, at each end of the station a bellmouth exists in the tunnel walls which is similar to stations where the tracks widen to accommodate an island platform.
Might have made sense years ago when the G was the only local service on Queens Blvd. and Manhattan-bound customers had to transfer at Roosevelt Ave.
But my plan for converting Woodhaven to an express stop comes with a hitch. I would like to see the MTA develop a "Rapid Bus" service along both Horace Harding and Woodhaven Bvlds. to feed this new stop. If you provide riders along these corridors with a "virtual" light rail, high-speed bus, then you'll make it possible to bring thousands of new riders into the Subway. I used to stay with family in Douglaston and take the Q17A (later Q30) into Hillside Avenue to catch the F train. This connection could provide a more direct link between the Queens Blvd. express line and many "subwayless" parts of Eastern and Southern Queens. This might also take some more cars off the LIE and reduce congestion on many bus lines feeding Jamacia and Forest Hills.
Just a thought.
Disclaimer: Personally, I'm fine with the R, because when I need to use that station I need to get to 86 St/Lex, so there's a transfer to the 4 or 5 I can utilize. On the other hand, for a much shorter ride I can transfer at 51 St to a 6, which takes the same amount of time to get uptown as a 4 or 5 and comes much more frequently. Consequently, I really have little vested interest in converting Woodhaven Blvd to an express station, but I know plenty of people who would benefit.
That's true. Woodhaven had 6.5 million riders in 2002, more than any other local stop on Queens Boulevard. But making it an express stop would add to the load on the already overcrowded express trains, while reducing the load on the local trains.
avid
avid
Now then if the (F) would stop and the (E) would pass, how would that feel to people.
Or if the (Q) were brought out to 179 th Street The the (Q) could have the local tracks on Hillside, (and at Woodside) while the (F) and the (E) ran express and skipped Woodside...
That might be useful.
Elias
avid
avid
You mean like this?
Can anyone take an image of the current subway map and draw those fantasy lines on it?
Straight under Queens Blvd. The only stops would be 46th St (for the 7 train) and 69th St (as it's not exactly the best served area).
I would Take the H at all times Super Express to and from Francis Lewis Blvd, Which would be my new transfer point for the N6.
:-D
Can anyone take an image of the current subway map and draw those fantasy lines on it?
I might drop Michael Calcagno an e-mail and see if I could do an edited version of one of his maps.
MS Paint.
Actually I like it. The only modification is the V extension on the LIE should have one stop relocated from Francis Lewis Blvd to 188th st. This will better service customers living in the Fresh Meadows complex area.
Actually I did wonder about the spacing there when I was drawing it. I put the stops at Utopia Pkwy for the Q31 and Francis Lewis Blvd for the Q76 and Q26. Of course I can see a very good argument for 188th St instead. Perhaps the buses could be rerouted if a station were placed there.
The L to Howard Street, and then both the Evanston line and the Skokie Swift - three totally different experiences.
George Diamond's Steakhouse.
Museum of Science and Industry.
Wrigley Field (OK, you won't get to see the Cubs play, but make sure you take a good look while riding past on the L to Howard Street).
And while riding the L to Howard Street, tip your hat when passing the Morse station... I was married just a couple of blocks west of there :-) And our first apartment was at the corner of Greenview and Howard, just two blocks east of the Howard Street station.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Chuck Greene
Pioneer Zephyr
NYC 999
And the Chicago Art Institute is a must see in the "otherwise" (Non-railfanning) category. It even had railfan content when I visited.
Magritte
Monet
Mr Beef
Berghoff's
If you are into music, The old Chess Records office/studio [now the Willie Dixon Blues Heaven Foundation] at 2120 S Michigan Ave is very cool-at LEAST as holy a place as Sun Records in Memphis.
At the end of the Howard Line, don't forget the Skokie Swift!
The John Hancock Building might be better than the Sears Tower...
How are you traveling??
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
When you travel north along on the HOWARD train (Red Line) or LINDEN train, if you are riding the Evanston, you will be able to see Broadway. Until 1957, route #36 Broadway-State PCC's plied this street.
What would I do with a short time in Chicago? Well, definitely ride the loop. Take a Midway (Orange line) train out to HALSTED to view the 13th street incline (old State street subway portal), the Federal St. interlocking, and the connection to the Red (Dan Ryan) line. At HALSTED, you can cross the platform and ride back. Take a ride on the Evanston Express (Purple) from the Loop to HOWARD. If you have time, ride the Ravenswood train out to KIMBALL.
If you are into commuter operations, ride the Lake (Green) line one stop from CLARK/LAKE to CLINTON. The inbound platform is located above the "throat" of Northwestern Station. Good train watching during the rush hours.
BTW, George Diamonds Steak House is closed. Try "The Berghof" for a good dinner at a reasonable price.
Jim Kramer
Chicago, IL
Your best bets would be Gino's East, Giordano's, or Pizzeria Uno/Due. (Don't confuse the original Pizzeria Uno in Chicago with their nationwide namesakes... Unlike the franchise crap, the original Uno's at Ohio and Wabash is very good.)
Peace,
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
> Your best bets would be Gino's East, Giordano's, or
> Pizzeria Uno/Due. (Don't confuse the original
> Pizzeria Uno in Chicago with their nationwide
> namesakes... Unlike the franchise crap, the original
> Uno's at Ohio and Wabash is very good.)
Among Chicagoans (including us exiled Chicagoans), preferences among the three approach the dimensions of a religious schism. I myself am a devout Giordanite; my wife, alas, remains a benighted votary of the foul Ginovian heresy. But I continually pray for her conversion.
In any event, try any of them, and you'll never be satisfied with Domino's again.
Alan Follett
Trains are great, but they are not people. You should not love a train more than your wife.
The (V) rules. Long live the (V)!
XD
N Broadway Line
V > G
I've explained many times before why I, as a Queens Blvd local customer, prefer the new plan over the old. However I will say one thing I miss about the weekday G to 71st... the rare and exotic R-32 Gs that would run if Jamaica didn't have enough viable R46 pairs... sigh.
I miss that just as much. =( made my commute to and from school interesting.
If the G ever ran R32s, did it use 8 or 10 cars? I don't know if this question has been answered or not, but I'll bring it up again anyway.
Also, it feels like the R32 gets better acceleration than the R46.
There are four Queens Boulevard trains, but only three B-division routes running north-south through midtown Manhattan. So two of the four trains (one local and one express) are assigned to the same popular route: Sixth Avenue.
Only if you don't mind spending a few $billion, and reducing the Queens Boulevard service to midtown Manhattan!
WTF are you talking about...?
I don't think Kawasakir142 knows what he is talking about...
I hope someone tells him that Bombardier made the R142, not Kawasaki. ;)
R46 F: 8 cars x 4 doors per car: 32 doors/train
R32 E: 10 cars x 40 doors per car: 40 doors/train
I meant that it seems reasonable for the Sixth Avenue line to have two Queens Boulevard trains. Your numbers of doors suggest that the E train carries more riders than the F, but I don't think you would want two QB lines on Eighth Avenue.
That has been proposed a few times before on this board, including this post.
Problems would arise because the C is a full-time service but the B is not. So you would have two full-time services on the Concourse line, and one to Washington Heights. Because the Concourse line is longer, that would take more trains to operate. Also the A would have to switch to the local tracks from 145 Street to 168 Street when the B was not running.
Thanks, B.J. I was not aware of that. Why are the C trains shorter, and which line needs the higher capacity trains?
This would be easily fixed by making the C part time to Church Ave. via culver express, and making the V full time to Euclid, swapping the routes at W4. The only thing missing would be a new northern terminal for the V, so the G could go back to Queens Blvd. As far as the B is concerned, you could make it the full time Brighton local, and have the Q be the part time Brighton Express.
N Broadway Line
Here's the question: When the R-142s eventually come to the (7), what will the side signs display?
(7) FLUSHING LOCAL
(7) TO TIMES SQ - 42 ST
I would think it would say something like that, but does it make sense to call it a Flushing Local? I mean, the (7) IS known as the Flushing line, but it sounds bizarre to call it a Flushing Local when it's going Manhattan-bound.
Don't the R-143s on the (L) display:
(L) 14 ST LOCAL
Maybe the R-142s on the (7) will say:
(7) 42 ST LOCAL
But that's silly. The (7) makes just three stops along 42 Street.
My dad made the interesting suggestion that the signs might say something like this:
(7) QUEENS BLVD / ROOSEVELT AVE LOCAL
(7) TO FLUSHING - MAIN STREET
But that sounds odd to me. I've never called the (7) the Roosevelt Avenue Local. Even though it's true.
Any predictions on what the signs might say? Or does anyone know for SURE what the signs say?
One could reasonably guess that it says queens express, and possibly queens local (Not likely because the 5 and 6 do not display bronx local at any time, currnetly)
Awesome! Thanks Mustang!
By "most of its time" do you mean one station? (Main St--the only one in Flushing, unless Shea Stadium counts.)
:-) Andrew
The Willets Point station is in Corona. However, Corona is really part of Flushing, as are Elmhurst, Rego Park, Jackson Heights, Bayside, Whitestone, Fresh Meadows, and a whole bunch of other areas. Generally speaking, any neighborhood with a zip code beginning with 113 is a part of Flushing, even though certain sections are more commonly known by other names. That being the case, calling the 7 the Flushing Line does make sense.
Well...not really. They're part of the Flushing postal city, and once upon a time, a looong time ago, they were part of the Town of Flushing. But these are neighborhoods we're talking about here today, not cities, towns, or villages. The city, as it were, is New York. I wouldn't consider my neighborhood (called "Oakland Gardens" or maybe southern Bayside) to really be part of Flushing.
:-) ANdrew
FROM: TO:
Main St Time Square Local
Main St Time Square Express
111 St Time Square Local
Main St QueensBoro Plaza Local
Main St QueensBoro Plaza Express
Main St Hunters Point Local
Main St Grand Central Local
Time Square Main St Local
Time Square Main St Express
Time Square 111 St Local
Time Square Willets Pt Shea Express
QueensBoro Plaza Main St Local
QueensBoro Plaza Main St Express
Grand Central Main St Local
Now for what the annoucements are going to say I'm not to sure didn't have time to check but next time I have a put in from one of the yards I will check
For one stop, I don't think anyone needs announcements.
I think you meant Times Sq-Willets Pt Blvd Local, which is common in service but absent from Mustang's list. I don't ever remember seeing a Times Sq-Willets Pt Blvd Express, and that is listed. It's either a typo or very poor planning.
The only thing worth recording from today was the E180 bound 2, but she sounds like a total retard saying it...
Thanks!
PS: If the 7 announcemnt is said really quickly and you can't really seperate "This is a" into seperate words, it's probably the voice from the 5 saying them. THe 4 voice clearly says every word, in a fairly flat voice.
I'm buying a kayak.
Thanx, Mustang!
(7) 42 ST LOCAL
But that's silly. The (7) makes just three stops along 42 Street
The "Nassau St." line makes only three--or is it two--stops along Nassau Street. I don't see why the (7) couldn't be called the "42nd St. Local" (the Shuttle, of course, is the 42nd St. express.)
:-) Andrew
Back when there was an open wall on the northern end (it was coverd up long ago), that's where the switches used to be.
The present track configuration has been in place for just over 40 years now. The extreme outside tracks lead to the bridge while the inner tracks facing each platform lead to the tunnel. The bypass tracks still lead to the bridge.
More information can be found here.
Picture this:
Brighton express, tunnel, B'way local, Astoria local;
Brighton local, tunnel, Nassau St, bridge, Myrtle Ave local;
4th Ave local, bridge, 6th Ave express;
Sea Beach local, 4th Ave express, bypass, bridge, B'way express, Astoria local;
West End local, 4th Ave express, bypass, bridge, B'way express, QB local.
Ona side note, please contact me - I have something for you.
Oriente Station, Libson, Portugal. Enjoy!
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
When was this station in Lisbon built?
My time indoors was well spent, on a different subject of importance.
However, based on what I learned, it's a good thing I was not a BMT fan in the days before the R series cars, because the BMT always locked the doors between units. Was this the case on various fan trips, storm doors being locked?
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
FYI,
Being a seasoned citizen & life long resident of the Apple,
when the R-1 were operated on the BMT #2, Fourth Avenue Local,
[Astoria to 95th Street], the storm doors between cars were locked
same as Standards. >>GG<<
8-) ~ Sparky
Slacking with straight air is another thing ENTIRELY, especially on what rolls through here. I wouldn't DARE. Ain't easy at all. CSX is quite safe - just five box cars in tow once between engine brake, dynamic and air and trying to work three handles at once without phucking it up and ditching the whole linkup is NOT as easy as it looks. I got religion real quick - that's why I prefer to play with subway cars. :)
Mark
(you know darn well I know how to spike rail and wrap a handle around!)
But yes, choochoo welcome! You too of course!
Mark
And, not content with our follies of the past, we’re continuing to build more!!!
From: http://www.wtop.com/
Carlton Sickles Dies in Sleep at Age 82
Updated: Saturday, Jan. 17, 2004 - 4:21 PM
Steve Eldridge, WTOP Radio
BETHESDA -- Carlton Sickles, the man many have called "the father of Washington's Metro system" died in his Bethesda home Saturday morning.
"It's a sad day at Metro ... Our father has passed away," is what Metro CEO Richard White said about the 82-year-old Sickles who attended high school and college in the D.C. area and also attended Georgetown Law in the late 1940's.
Sickles first served on the Washington Metropolitan Transit Authority board in 1967, but his efforts to bring a subway system to the area started much earlier. From 1963 to 1967, Sickles served as a Maryland Congressman and chaired the Compact Commission, which began the legal framework to establish Metro.
Sickles' family moved to the Washington area from Connecticut when he was young. He later attended Roosevelt High School in Prince George's County.
Just this past Thursday he attended what would be his last meeting at Metro, pushing staff and fellow board members to make the system safer and better.
He's survived by his wife Jackie, his one daughter, two grandchildren and three great grandchildren.
John
Heard the news on my way to Baltimore for a field trip on the Baltimore metro on Saturday.
My impressions and discoveries of similarities, differences in operations to WMATA to come later.
John
Carlton Sickles was recognized by many as the father of WMATA on the political front. Harry Mohr Weese’s (1912-1998) architectural firm Harry Weese And Associates was the primary consulting architectural contractor that was behind basic design of the stations.
John
1)Run both F trains (Coney Island & Kings Highway) express between Jay St & Church Av in peak periods only with an express stop at 7th Av.
2)Extend the V train (running local in Brooklyn) to Church Av during peak periods & 2nd Av in off peak.
3)Extend the G train to Church Av al ALL TIMES.
"Welcome Aboard!"
"We have redesigned our timetable. For the first time since 1992, we are publishing a single-system timetable that lists all our train and Thruway motorcoach services under one cover. We've editied the timetable, making it easier to read and added a 'how-to' section (pgs. 4-7) walking you through the process of planning your trip. Another addition, not seen in more than 20 years, is the section with sample train fares (pgs. 114-119). (You'll also see that we've simplified our fare structure and emphasized early booking to obtain the best fares.)"
"A lot of these changes were done in direct response to comments and suggestions we recived from you. Hopefully, we are on target in making it as easy as possible to plan your trip."
"While you are riding with us, you may notice some other changes we are making right outside the train window. We have embarked on a five year capital investment plan that will improve the reliability and comfort of out trains, facilities and the tracks we own. These investments take time and money, and you won't see these changes everywhere or all of a sudden. In the long run, however, our goal is to provide you with a better service, whether in the comfort of a rebuilt car or a smoother ride that gets you to your destination on time."
Now, these "improvements" being referred to seem to me as the same legend to reading the timetable as before, only with colors. Also, I don't remember Amtrak ever printing its fare samples in its timetables, and I've been picking up their timetables and travel planners since the early nineties. Moreover, it surprises me now that they've combined the northeast timetable with the national one (including all the services from the other regions). Seems to me that Amtrak's budget woes are really getting the best of it - it's nothing to the uninformed observer/traveler, but for the last couple of years there has been no travel planner and now they're combining timetables. What next? How could there be the claim of improvements in service, infrastructure, and equipment if these signs of budgets woes are apparent?
And I also don't remember any customer surveys asking for timetable improvements.
It's going to look great. All of the people who say it doesn't fit into the area don't know what they're talking about.
See here http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/releases/2002/release_2002_217.cfm
Me, I'm glad the old station is almost completely gone. Minimalism at its best (which is bad).
Then we'll all go worship at the new fabulous Temple of Stillwell, the ultimate gift to the subway gods!
My main beef with the new Stillwell terminal (besides not liking the design) is that it's not the Coney Island I remember (whoa, did I just do a Sea Beach Fred impression?). I have the same feelings with the B/D swap in Brooklyn. Just wait until the R160's arrive in force, replacing the cars which have dominated the system since my youth.
Please. Life is depressing enough without talking about such atrocities.
While I liked the redbirds, I'm still a BMT-IND guy. If you think there were scenes when the redbirds were eliminated, just see the scene that is made when I see the last R40 or R42 set is taken out of service. It won’t be pretty.
Seriously, save a married pair for the museum if you want. But don't incite mass riots in the streets because old, worn-out, peeling, slow, smelly, noisy hunks of metal are being replaced with newer, cleaner, more efficient and more comfortable models.
That makes sense, it also makes your criticism much less credible.
Uh-oh... I'm guessing you're really not going to like Wal Mart.
May we please drop this now?
David
So Bill you and your friend are both right. He did see someone in the back on Saturdays and OPTO does run on both days if not suppened.
Robert
Robert
Robert
Elias
The cost from downtown Paris using the Metro and the RER B train was 8.80 Euros. That price buys you one ticket that is good on all three trains. One good thing was going from Paris to the airport was at Antony there was a cross the platform conection with Orlyval, expect that there are fare gates between the two services.
The only station I can think of that comes close to this is the BMT Canal Street Bridge Line station. It was closed for over 10 years, and even Joe Brennan had it on his Abandoned Stations list. As we all know, it was renovated and reopened once the Manny B bridge was fixed.
David
Roosevelt (Orange, Green) - Closed as a rapid transit station 1948 (but continued as North Shore's Chicago terminal until 1963); reopened 1993.
Dempster (Yellow) - Closed as a rapid transit station in 1947 (but continued as a North Shore station until 1963); reopened, with a new physical facility, 1964.
Grand-Milwaukee (Blue) - Closed 1992, reopened 1999.
Sedgwick (Brown, Purple) -Closed for a few months somewhere around 1980; reopened due to community pressure.
Going back over a century, the Congress Street stub terminal was closed when the South Side "L" began using the Loop, but reopened a few years later to relieve rush hour congestion (and closed again, permanently, in 1948). I believe the same is true of the Lake Street line's Market Street trackage.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
Agreed; the original poster specified closures which were intended to be permanent. Chicago has a lot of recent examples of temporary closures in connection with line reconstruction -- the Green Line project in the mid-1990's, and the current Blue Line (Cermak Branch) reconstruction, which included a number of fairly substantial temporary stations (since, unlike the Green Line job, this was carried out without line closure). I imagine when the Brown Line renovation starts we'll see more of the same.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
-Glendale on the LIRR LIC branch was abandoned in the late 20's as a station stop, but reopened in the 40's, and came full circle when it closed again in 1998.
-Beacon Falls on MNRR was abandoned as a station stop in the New Haven years and reopened in the early 1990's.
-Edgewood on the LIRR Ronkonkoma was abandoned at the turn of the century and reopened as the current Deer Park station (when the Deer Park station was moved in 1987).
A station on the approximate location was open in my memory as Pineaire. I think most people would say that it was Pineaire that was reopened as new Deer Park.
There's a minor possibility that Republic station could reopen.
My understanding was that the LIRR continued to run racetrack specials at least through the 1956 or 1957 racetrack season, but others have said it didn't happen. I saw the connections and station. but not the trains, personally.
Paul, although I don't know the exact date it closed in 1956 so it possibly could be true in early 1956, the old Aqueduct plant was torn down in 1956 to be rebuilt and the new (present day) plant didn't open until 1959. (Just in time for the Mighty Kelso!!)
There is a picture of Locust Manor on the ground with the special high platform station for Race Track trains on this page at Art Huneke's site, about mid-page.
Actually, Aqueduct was closed as a subway station for some time prior to the intoduction of MetroCard. I do recall the large sign at the ramp that said something to the effect of "this subway station was closed by the NYCTA" so the NYRA wouldn't get the blame and the complaints. After MetroCard became available, the station reopened as a MetroCard-only station on racing days only.
The Aqueduct I was refering to is the other station at North Conduit.
- I don't know if this counts or not, but the current Wyandanch station is at the location of the original Wyandanch station when it had a station building like Saint James. When the station building was torn down in the 50's, they moved the Wyandanch stop and built a new building. In 1987, they moved it back to it's original location. This is pushing it though, because Wycandanch was never discontinued as a station stop, just the actual location was moved back and forth a few times.
I will disagree with that statement. The current "Deer Park" station is a misnomer. It should have been named Edgewood. Pineaire was east of where the new Deer Park Station is. Basically, it was in front of the 7-11 on Long Island Ave, or whatever that street fronting the tracks is called. In my mind, Pineaire just vanished. Too bad; it was a nice station...if you liked the freight yard atmosphere of the location. Which I did. Hell, I once rode from Republic to Pineaire. Good historic vibes in that journey.
It's a damn shame that the huge industrial park there couldn't have been a place to attract rail-centric industry. Now, most of the employment over there is low wage rote work, mailing houses, warehouses and the like. I really despise it. I am just so against that new proposal for a large development in that area. The guy (forgot his name) talks a good line but I have to consider what he's managed to put together so far. It ain't looking good.
Most Deer Park residents are better off with the new station because it has much more parking than the old one ever did.
It's a difficult drive on a narrow, largely industrial street from Deer Park Avenue to new Deer Park station, so it really isn't much of an improvement for Deer Park people. Wyandanch is better situated, if you're not getting back real late, but even the parking there has filled up lately.
(New) Deer Park is right off the parkway, so many of the people using the station come from some distance. I've heard that people living closer to the Port Jefferson and Montauk lines often drive to Deep Park to take advantage of that station's more frequent service and through trains. Much like Ronkonkoma, in other words.
While parking at Deer Park and now Wyandanch may be filling, I've never seen the main lot at Brentwood even as much as half-full.
But Deer Park has its problems. I know one lady who works downtown and gets home about 1 a.m. She lives almost walking distance from new Deer Park, but she rents a parking space and drives to Babylon station just because she's scared of the big, underprotected, Deer Park parking lot at night.
Rumor has it that a petty jurisdictional dispute is the reason why the Deer Park lot goes largely unpatrolled. The Suffolk County police claim that routine patrols are the responsibility of the MTA police, while the MTA police say the Suffolk County police are responsible. As a result, there are few if any routine patrols. I could scarcely blame a woman for not wanting to use the lot at 1 am.
Trouble is, both police forces are right in a way. Suffolk County owns the lot, so the LIRR says they are not responsible, any more than they would be for security on local streets or a private lot.
So you could say Suffolk County Police should patrol, but, frankly, Suffolk is a big county and the police have enough to do without dedicating even a single car for the kind of coverage you need.
Suffolk insists on this being a free lot (and they can, since they own it) but then there is no funding for what they should really have--a county security car where they are just "eyes and ears" and don't need the training (or salaries) of full-fledged cops.
Maybe Suffolk should do like Babylon. The village collects parking fees (and fines) in their lots. It costs 25 cents for 3 hours (or maybe its 2 now) and you can prepay up to 18 hours. Village security patrols constantly, and while they're looking for illegal parkers, they're also watching potential miscreants and vandals.
IOW, you get what you pay for.
Maybe Suffolk should do like Babylon. The village collects parking fees (and fines) in their lots. It costs 25 cents for 3 hours (or maybe its 2 now) and you can prepay up to 18 hours. Village security patrols constantly, and while they're looking for illegal parkers, they're also watching potential miscreants and vandals.
I see your point, but then again, commuters are paying enough for their train tickets already, without having to shell out even more for parking. There probably aren't any easy answers.
Well one advantage of this lack of patrols is that there are more parking spots! The "15 minute" spots next to the station platform had cars in it that looked like they were parked for way more then 15 minutes.......in otherwords, people can use them due to the lack of enforcement and the lack of adequate legal parking in the lot.
I know of at least two people who drive to Deer Park from West Islip (right off the causeway, which feeds into the parkway). Since its on parkway, its probably actually a faster drive then to Babylon, given how congested Montauk Highway can get.
Good point,and one I don't see mentioned too often. That is, the loss of whatever convenience and utility having the station right at the center of the "downtown" area. Appears to me Deer Park lost more than it might think. I've caught trains at the old spot. It made D.P. an actual destination, miniscule as the business district on Deer Park Avenue might be. The old "Main Street" appeal.
Guess that's the future design pattern of any further developments by the railroad however. The same effect happened in C.I. and Brentwood, but at D.P. it seems more pronounced. As a design philosophy I think it sucks. So now, that stretch of the Avenue is basically just another non-descript four lane arterial road, with a train trestle. It's all well and good to encourage train usage by maximizing parking. But it shows a distinct disregard for the health of the areas losing their station.
Plus, look at how Islip and Babylon Townships have responded to the new location: They haven't done much with improving the surrounding road networks. You ain't foolin'about that "narrow industrial street" business. That road should have been widened and had sidewalks (and better street lighting) put on both sides of the street. And I'm talking about both east and west of the station. The situation there now is, really, a mess. I attribute THAT to the thieving political figures in those townships. Bunch `a crooks.
The way I see it, you need both types of stations for a truely effective transit system. THe park and ride stations for people who come from far away and need to drive, but don't want to park a congested business district. And you also need the "town center" stations, near where people live so they can easily walk to the station, and not surrounded by so much parking that eats up valueable real estate that could lead to more people walking to the station. The LIRR doesn't do a very good job at keeping this balance.....the Ronkonkoma line is essentially all park and ride, and other lines are essentially all walking lines with little parking.
Other transit systems do a better job....like Metrorail in DC which has a plethora (though still not enough!) of parking, yet still has many stations with close-in, dense, transit-oriented development.
Only true really with respect to Deer Park and Ronkonkoma itself. Bethpage, Farmingdale, and Wyandanch stations are right in the middle of the town centers, while Brentwood and Central Islip are within reasonable walking distance.
Some of the companies might use rail if freight rail service on Long Island weren't so bad.
Good point! To which I'll add that it's also hard to have useful freight service on LI and in the City so long as all traffic w4est and south of New England has to go 100 miles north of NYC to cross the Hudson.
You have to either qualify the question or reach way back in history in NYC.
You might count Intervale Avenue, which was closed after being firebombed. It was completely rebuilt and reopened, but there was no certainty inititally that it would be so.
You could count 8th Avenue and Fort Hamilton Parkway on the Sea Beach Line. These were bypassed as rapid transit stations when all Sea Beach trains were routed to the West End Line at the turn of the 20th century. They were served only by trolleys and (for a time) buses until the line was reopened more than a decade later as a subway line.
You could also count Dean Street on the Brighton Line and several other elevated stations which the BRT closed in the same time span. They intended to keep them closed and transfer the traffic to streetcars, but they were forced to reopen them.
At the time the stations were closed, was it anticipated that they would have regular subway service in the future? If the answer is no, I guess they would qualify. Otherwise I'd classify them as temporary closures a la the Canal Street platform.
In fact, the initial plan was to keep it closed for good.
In 1976, the feds paid PATCO to reopen the station to serve the hordes of visitors that were expected to visit the Cradle of Liberty for the Bicentennial. Police Commissioner/Mayor Frank Rizzo scared millions of potential visitors away, and the station was permanently closed again.
Back on topic, I've heard some noises being made about the Franklin Square station being re-opened, in order to provide access to the new Constitution Center.
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
But yeah, that was good old Frank Rizzo, star of the Jerky Boys movie. :)
Charing Cross
Strand (let’s have a(n) historic name restored!)
Aldwych
Fleet Street
Ludgate Circus
Ludgate Hill (somewhere east of St Paul’s)
Guildhall (that area is underserved)
Liverpool St
With apologies to M&W!
Arsenal Football Club discussed building a stadium in the area, and stated that the closed station may reopen if the stadium is built
In July 1998, Islington Council made statements of support, but relevant plans omit the station
In September 1999, RAIL magazine stated that work on the stadium could not start until 2005 due to work on the Channel Tunnel Rail Link, and that Arsenal were losing interest in the idea
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/7069/tpftla_n.html#YorkRoad
Also, was there a LIRR Station at Broad Channel?
Also, if you include tourist railroads there are plenty reactivated stations (and lines) across the country.
Yes, there was also a station at the Raunt.
Also, if you include tourist railroads there are plenty reactivated stations (and lines) across the country.
Not just tourist railroads. I remember the recent commuter rail reactivations to Hackettstown and Wassaic.
Service call of the month from a Baltimore Gas & Electric residential customer...
BGE received a call from a customer saying: "My power is out. When you come to fix it be sure to bring a truck with a tall enough bucket to remove the deer."
The customer service rep, prudently trying to gather information to help diagnose the problem, asked, "What deer?"
The customer replied "There is a deer on top of one of the electric poles on Wilkes Road about 1/2 mile west of Perimeter Road."
The customer service rep tried desperately to pull herself together and not laugh in front of the customer and replied "We'll dispatch someone right away to investigate the power outage. Thank you for the call."
Upon completion of the call, the customer service rep proceeded to share the funny story with her coworkers in the office and they all had a good laugh.
Well, lo and behold, the serviceman who repaired the problem stopped by the customer service office the following day with these pictures.
Sure enough, the deer had been hit by a train and landed on top of a distribution feeder pole! Unbelievable!!!!!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I don't see any tracks in any of the pictures so I don't know if it was hit by a train. If it was it must have been a fast train that hit the deer and smacked him att the way to the top.
http://www.snopes.com/photos/poledeer.asp
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I knew it wasn't BGE territory, as BGE rarely uses double poles and hasn't used glass insulators since the 1950's.
Snopes learned the deer on the pole was real, but how it got there was unknown. The Canadian National, who has a line near where the pics were taken, but no CN engineer reported hitting a dear.
The BGE story is false, but that version is now an urban legend.
http://www.snopes.com/photos/poledeer.asp
-WSE
Here's a picture of my expression at the moment:
:c O
The damage that tractor-trailers do to unlucky white-tailed deer on the interstates is quite gruesome. I have driven over bloodstained asphalt and concrete too often, seeing various pieces of the carcass scattered across the highway and shoulder adjacent. A railroad locomotive would do even more damage. The deer would not be intact at all.
My friends (nurses who had attend the same convention as I) were un injured. *I* had opted to drive home the next day, in daylight, but that's a different albeit also interesting story.
Elias
Elias
1) When coming out of exchange place if the swith is set to the left and u goto G Track is that the new tunnel/track built post Sept. 11th?
2) When coming into grove street like 15-20 feet before the station there seems to be a cut where tracks once were? Where did this lead to and why is it not used today?
2. Probably to Henderson Yard on the surface. The yard was removed in the 1990's. Look at the PATH info on this site.
Yes. Here are two diagrams showing exactly what was done:
2) When coming into grove street like 15-20 feet before the station there seems to be a cut where tracks once were? Where did this lead to and why is it not used today?
It led to a ramp up to the street for a very small (but packed) yard on the northeast corner of Grove & Marin (formerly Henderson). A plan of the yard can be found here.
R46 5727 (does this sound like a PATH car?)
Thanks 4 that!
;-)
Or does anyone knows if there is a Hudson Terminal webpage site, if so, what is the webpage site for this.
Also: http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/abandoned/hudterm.html
Identify yourself!
Chuck Greene
That's one of the most f---ed up comments I've heard in my life thus far.
Oh great, railfanning as the next trendy addiction ... move over, OxyContin, the trains are comin' through!
Does anyone know what's up with that? (Unfortunately, I couldn't get a car number or a yard color strip).
-Julian
-Julian
How do you tell the two types apart?
Also, why were they removed on the (1)/(9)?
-Julian
No, it's evidence that R-62As formerly of 240 St Shop are now running on the 7.
On that note, does anyone know the reason for the swap?
What!?
I thought those were exclusively on R110a/bs, R142/143s!
David
Can the C/R control the interior and exterior PA's independently?
The clue: Rollsigns
If it is two lines of text, it it 62, 4 lines, 62A
However there are some oddball R62As (2067 I think) that sport R62 style signage... ;)
Is there any way to tell them apart from the front? Are the signs placed differently (similar to how the front signs on the R44s are placed lower than those on the R46)?
David
Why? What, specifically, are the operational advantages of single units over five-car sets on routes where ten-car trains are being operated? (And please don't say "Well, the singles have the railfan window." That's not an operational advantage -- it's only an "advantage" for railfans.)
David
They also allow passengers to pass from car to car -- particularly useful on the 1/9 (South Ferry) and 3 (145th).
-Julian
Times (then Longacre) Square 100 years ago was a much smaller deal than it is today, but it was hardly a forgotten backwater and certainly was a logical point for a station.
It was probably the zoning law of 1916, which limited commercial development to south of 59th Street that doomed the Westchester. Prior to that, commercial development jumpted 10 blocks every decade.
I thing the NYW&B was intended to feed into IRT lines from the beginning, no matter where "midtown" was.
Wouldn't people have expected Central Park to be a reasonably effective barrier to northward CBD migration?
It wasn't always the "best" guess of the time, though. The IND misses then-competing lines in several places. At 100 St./CPW? Between G/J/M? 3/L? No GG/MJ connection. This also applies to some IND routing. Concourse with Woodlawn (with 3 Ave. El?), etc. That's my sense and why subway planners should really use their best guess not that of the moment unless it would lead to some line not being built at all.
This photo should answer at least the part of the question of if the IRT should have known where to put express stations:
(Jeff Rosen posted this photo once, but I couldn't find his link, but I don't know where he found it. It amazes me though.)
The Bronx ELs were put through similar landscape. The Queens Blvd line was also built through a fairly rural landscape, but not as extreme as the above photo of the 7 line.
In areas like this, perhaps the neighborhoods and main streets developed around the elevated lines, instead of subway and el stations being selected at major streets.
On the 1924 or 5 BMT map on our site, the under-construction Canarsie Line is shown with, I think, stations at Flushing and Central Avenues
rather than Jefferson Street and Wilson Avenue. Flushing Avenue always made more sense to me as a station than Jefferson Street because it is an old main auto through route. And Central Avenue passes under the LIRR and Canarsie Line trestles to enter Trinity and Evergreen Cemeteries, whereas Wilson Avenue dead-ends half a block southeast of Moffat Street
There also used to be a Park Avenue station on the Broadway el, between Myrtle and Flushing Avenues. Why did it close ? Probably wasn't making money.
The 1910 Brooklyn transit map that was posted recently by "ntrainride" showed the Myrtle El as once having had an Evergreen Avenue station, as well as a Central Avenue station, even though the Central Avenue station as I know it once had an Evergreen Avenue exit at its western end. Would a Bushwick Avenue station have made more sense, as it was and is a larger and straighter auto route than Evergreen Avenue ?
Maybe when the Jamaica line was being rebuilt for the dual contracts, The station at Park Avenue was deemed too close to Myrtle/Broadway.
I think you're right about Park Avenue station leaving the Broadway el under Dual Contracts rebuilding.
I wonder if the Bushwick Avenue station on the L line was qualified with Aberdeen Street (cross street), to avoid confusion, because of the line running under Bushwick Avenue at Montrose Avenue and Grand Street stations to the northwest.
I'm not so sure that that's a positive attribute of the NYC subway system. Regular riders have long since figured it out, but I've seen many a visitor confused by the duplicate names.
As a foreign visitor to NYC, I agree entirely. Last time we were in NYC I played an innocent little trick on my wife. We were staying at a hotel right by Chambers 1,2,3,9 station. Returning from midtown at one point, I took her on to an IND train instead, and we alighted at Chambers A,C station, which is one short block east of the IRT station. Emerging from the subway, she wondered where our hotel had disappeared to!
When I worked at 23 Street/Ely Avenue in Queens, I'd get people who really thought they were at 23 Street/6 or 8 Avenue in Manhattan. Maybe most people can tell the difference between one and the other. But there are some people who simply don't. And those people cause the worst problems of all.
Maybe the station name is called Bushwick/Aberdeen so that it gives people an idea exactly where on Bushwick they want to go. Bushwick is a fairly long road. It helps if people would tell me where along Bushwick Ave they wanted. Sometimes when I worked on the L line, I'd get people who wanted directions to "14 Street". I had to ask them "14 Street and 1 Ave? 3 Ave? Union Square?, 6 Ave? or 8 Ave?" All those stops are along 14 Street. If I don't know exactly where they wanted to go, it's hard to tell them where to get off. The last thing I need is someone complaining they really wanted to go to 8 Ave when they didn't tell me anything besides "14 Street" and I told them to get off at Union Square. And sometimes when people complain, they make themselves look good and leave out they didn't tell me exactly where they wanted to go.
Yeah, I really like that name too on the station. Besides, DeKalb is pretty straight forward. You need variety, like trying to remember how to spell "Kosciuszko" or "Kosciusko", or all the other variations I have seen , even on subway maps!
As for "Flushing Ave" on the Canrsie line, which you mentioned in another post (which I can't find), yes, it's true. Jefferson Ave was supposed to be FLushing Ave. In that map that you saw, the Canarsie line was still "proposed" or "under construction". That map dates to the time when the Canarsei line was supposed to be an elevated line instead of a subway east of Montrose Ave to Broadway Junction. "Flushing" became "Jefferson" when the early form NIMBY's forced the line to be underground.
Most els went up in rural areas, the residents followed later specifically because easy transportation was available.
The IND should have built a station with wider platforms, since they had to have expected an eventual transfer here once the city got control of the IRT/BMT.
I believe the primary factor was the lease payments that the IRT had to pay to the Manhattan Railways bondholders, and would have to continue paying until the year 2902.
FWIW wasn't the east side more densely populated at the time? It could be that the value of 86th Street as a crosstown street just meant more on the east side than the west side.
Of course, it was cheaper to build along C.P.W. than other avenues so this might have been the main reason in any case.
Or they could have flipped over to East Side and run under 1st, Madison or 5th.
Actually there was once a suggestion to run the IND north through the middle of Central Park.
Why, the UWSers didn't want "those people" to get off in their neighborhood? :)
No, the TA's planning department had a single track mind. :-)
No, Concourse riders didn't want to ride with uws people. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Some of the station locations obviously turned out to be the wrong ones. The IRT's showcase terminal at City Hall was a work of art, but it never was a popular station. All of that work for a station very few riders had any practical use for.
If you could rebuild the IRT, I suspect the west side merge would be further south, at WTC. Chambers St is a relatively unimportant location today, but it was a far more vibrant neighborhood a century ago.
As someone else pointed out, 59th St would probably make a better express stop than 72nd, but the station was a lot less important before the IND came along.
Theoretically, 59th could be converted to an express stop with the use of crossovers. Here's a text diagram of what this might look like:
|Pltfrm|
----/-----------\-------
---/-------------\------
---\-------------/------
----\-----------/-------
|Pltfrm|
Expressess could crossover to the local track just before the station, and then cross back after leaving the station. Would this work, or create too many delays?
-Julian
P.S. Sorry about the cheap diagram!
No it isn't. Who told you this?
Would this work, or create too many delays?
It would NOT work. It wouldn't even work long enough to create delays.
Who told you that?
Just go to 59th St, and count the number of times a 2 or 3 train passes while a 1 or 9 train is in the station. If your design were built, then every time that happens a 2 or 3 would be sitting idle in a tunnel, waiting for the 1/9 ahead of it to leave 59th St.
http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/track/96th.gif
By 1905 they knew thay made a mistake.
There have been a few proposal's to fix it, but nothing serious.
Beach's subway had been abandoned for a good thirty years before Day One on the IRT
You know the old saying---it's a lot cheaper to do it right the first time. Fixing this particular mistake would be an expensive and complex project. Hundreds of millions of dollars, and significant service disruptions while it gets built.
It could happen one of these days, but I suspect other design mistakes (e.g., Rogers Junction) are more urgent to rectify.
Also in 1904 when the line first opened 34 Street wasn't such a big road. At least not in the area of Park Avenue.
There are plenty of empty seats on the long-awaited AirTrain link to Kennedy Airport.
Since its debut last month, the nearly $2 million rail line has only carried between 15,000 and 20,000 riders a day – about half as many the Port Authority projected would take the eight-mile route between the airport and subway and commuter train connections.
But a spokesperson says the authority expected January numbers to be low.
He said the AirTrain is still on track to meet ridership projections in its first year of operation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WE TOLD YOU SO!
Lower the damned fare if you want to see it used more.
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
I still see as many taxis and black Lincoln zooming down the Van Wyck toward JFK than I did before AirTrain opened.
AirTrain is such a large slab of pork that there should be a bright red apple protruding from the front of every car.
Then they take the subway to Howard Beach and IGNORE everything they see or hear about the shuttle bus being discontuned and replaced with Airtrain. Then they complain LOUDLY they didn't hear or know anything about it.
And keep in mind, Airtrain is only a month old. It's too soon to say it isn't working. I've heard projections are a little low regarding the number of people taling Airtrain. When has any change in transportation in NYC been accepted so quickly?
Twas ever thus. However many times, and in however many ways, you try to get information across to the public, there will always be those who complain that they were not told.
At Leicester station in England, there are: (1) a huge electronic display in the main station concourse, giving full details of the next ten or so trains; (2) smaller versions of this on the platforms; (3) electronic signs on each individual platform giving full details of the next train from that platform; (4) in most cases, destination indicators on the front of the trains; (5) in some cases, paper stickers in the train windows giving all the stops made by that train; (6) P.A. announcements both before a train pulls in ("The next train on platform 2 will be for Loughborough, Derby......) and once it has arrived ("The train now standing on platform 2 is for.....); (7) P.A. announcements made by the C/R on each individual train while its doors are still open; (8) platform staff shouting the names of the stations served by the train in the platform. And still, almost every day, you get people with apparently normal eyesight, hearing and mental ability getting on to a train, asking the other passengers where it is going!
You don't believe those, do you? I've seen them showing Birmingham New St before when the train in the station's actually going non-stop to London St Pancras.
To be fair, MTA needs to update the station maps and do a better job at certain aspects of direction-giving. But the lag time to acceptance is still at least 4 months. Ridership figures from May 2004 onward will start to mean something. Otherwise it doesn't mean anything and you can't conclude anything.
If the trains have too many empty seats by the end of June, though, the Port Authority would be well-advised to get together with Bombardier (the operator) and set a lower fare.
Assuming you're saying this solely in relation to the topic at hand - access to Airtrain - my question is , Why? If any organization needs to tell people how to get to Airtrain, shouldn't it be the PANYNJ. The MTA doesn't benefit from people riding Airtrain, unless there is an increase in people riding the subway or LIRR to get to Airtrain.
BINGO! AirTrain and MTA feed each other passengers. So each rail system needs to direct passengers to the other. They are directly dependent on each other to allow travelers and airport employees to get to and from the airport.
Those were the people that would have made up the steady core of passengers.
For a project that will be used for many many decades, a two-year slump in air travel is a blip. If you follow these things at all, you should know that air travel has very nearly recovered to its pre-9/11 levels. And of the region's three major airports, JFK is the fastest-growing.
Whatever the merits of AirTrain (and I know there are some legitimate arguments on both sides), you cannot evaluate it based on a two-year trend.
Temporary losses. JetBlue is expanding; the international market is coming back and air cargo is expanding big time. Kennedy just opened new cargo facilities.
Better redo your math.
That's what the monthly pass is for, employees. I believe it's $40, reducing the cost to $2 a day.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
JetBlue's expanding, that is correct; it's a terrific airline and I hope it continues to do well. The fact remains, however, that the track record for startup airlines is pretty dismal. B6's currently stellar financial performance may take a big hit in a few years when its 320's start requiring expensive maintenance. Plus there's also the uncertainty and cost associated with the introduction of the RJ fleet starting next year. In short, it's still too early to say whether B6 will be responsible for a big pickup in passenger activity - and AirTrain ridership - at JFK.
...t`was a dark and wintry night...goin' to sleep now
Give it up, Mitch. Your posts are getting so laughable even the straphangers' Campaign Rider Diaries wouldn't want them.
You would certainly be right about that. And NYC Transit doesn't need a lot of additional crowds on the E leaving Jamaica Center - though the J has available seats. The J could hadle additional loads adequately.
By May the picture will start to look clearer, and we'll have 4 months of data.
I suspect they will meet and exceed their projections, by the end of the year.
Another example of different economics, standards, and operating efficiencies "we" expect out of transit but not out of anything else. What happened to the product lifecycle and marketing.
Nothing catches on after the first month. Not Pepsi, not HDTV, and not magazines or possibly even cars. My understanding is that you consider yourself lucky if people are grabbing at your product faster than you can keep up.
Why is a PERMANENT fixture like a trainline any different? And where is any optimism about any new future need that may arise(possibly a business park within the vincinity or other things in the future).
The only thing though, is this train(just like the LRT in Miami being built) is totally dependant on airline demand.
Article is a little bit older. It's really close to getting a green light, but after the bids were won and it's ready to go, it was just postponed due to problems with airline passenger demand and rental car restructuring, so they have to redesign the rental car garage or some junk like that.
It would be nice to have one place in this state have a central hub, even though Miami just may be the most sprawling region out of all of them(but with bus, car, and 4-5 rail lines, maybe it's the most connected).
After less than a month of operation, and with the Jamaica Station subway connection still under construction, I think the jury is still out.
From what the news stories say, people seem to be walking under the LIRR viaduct to reach the Air Train Building. They could also walk down Archer Avenue behind the LIRR HQ building and get an elevator to the overpass that links directly to AirTrain. MTA or PA should make the route easily visible - for example, painting a stripe or logo on the sidewalk to guide travelers directly to the entrance. Years ago there used to be such a stripe painted on the ceiling in Times Sq to direct people to the shuttle.
Feedback is welcome and wanted. Until next time,
Mike
However, I won't completely eliminate the possibility of R40 Slants making some appearances on the B. I'd love to experience "The Dash" from the railfan window of a Slant again.
But whatever the assignments are, I'll be content.
N Bwy
My opinion is slightly different from yours.. I feel we should have a balance of R40's and 68's.. That was the previous arraignment before the "Q" came back home on Broadway.
N Bwy
Except for an occasional weekend near the end, when the R-40's would creep onto the B, for whatever reason. I rode one from Columbus Circle to 36th on the evening of July 21, 2001, the last Saturday the B ran.
Why we got to be stuck with the old cars... especially after we had a large share of 68's... Do you think that is fair?
N Bwy
If the B and C switch Concourse service again then the C could possibly run 6- 68A's which wopuld be around 450 ft when the C normally runs 8 R38's which was 480 ft or if there was a possibility to run 7 68a's which will be 525 feet
All lines in the B div except for the JMZL trains can hold 8 60 ft cars
When people refer to cars like this 5100-5104 they mean 5100, 5101, 5102, 5103. 5104 wouldn't be part of that consist, if it exists.
Open your eyes sometime if you're out riding the system. You'll see the R68s and 68As are not in two car sets.
The odd thing about the lengthening of BMT stations on the BMT's southern division in the 1960's was that only the D train ran 600' trains on BMT trackage. N, RR, QB, and B trains ran 8 car trains right up to 1986-7.
Before the Fulton St stations were rebuilt in the late 1970's, theoretically a 9 car train could have run on either the J or M lines.
Ahh, and I found this photo I have of Central Ave showing both the narrow platform end, and the marker showing about 15-20 feet of remaining platform. This same amount of space is there at both ends of a stopped train. In this station too, it is pure original, unencumbered by the electrical/signal sheds they put at the ends of most of the platforms making some shorter in the process:
Central Avenue: 541 feet
Knickerbocker Avenue: 537 feet
Wyckoff Avenue: 547 feet
Seneca Avenue: 534 feet
Forest Avenue: 536 feet
Fresh Pond Road: 527 feet
Metropolitan Avenue: 506 feet
David
FPR is not the original station. That was destroyed (IIRC) by a fire.
Elias
I thought the Fulton El was part of the Eastern Division?
Your question should be not why was the Eastern Division built like that, but why were all the other BMT lines extended to accomodate 600 foot cars. The way the ED is built was the norm back when it and much of the BMT was built. The other lines were extended to accomodate longer trains. The ED was not extended. Notice also that the ED can not handle 75 foot cars because of clearances in some spots.
Back when they started to modify the BMT for 75 foot cars, and longer trains, they started with the more important lines. I believe the ED was eventually also supposed to be modified, but the fiscal crisis in the 70's haulted stuff like that. In addition, many of the neighborhoods that the ED went through were in decline, and ridership going down, not up, so it really wasn't necessary at the time either.
The L is the most logical choice if they ever decide to extend the platforms. Ridership has been steadily increasing at a rate of 5-6% a year, more than any other line. With the gentrification of Williamsburg, the continued stability of Greenpoint, and the slow improvement of Bushwick, the L will continue to increase in ridership, and may eventually need extensions. CBCTC coming to the line may allow much increased headways though, so extensions may be able to be delayed for some time. The L was the most logical chice to start CBCTC on with it's increasing passengers, and lack of another line sharing it's tracks.
avid
Is that really true? Isn't the R110B 67 feet like the R110B? If the standards could make the curves, why couldn't the R110B?
Argh, I meant to say:
Is that really true? Isn't the R110B 67 feet like the BMT Standards? If the Standards could make the curves, why couldn't the R110B?
Elias
Yes, but...
Perhaps finding that place will put the trucks too far from the ends to allow the couplers to work correctly. The train can tolerate more swing at the belly than at the ends. The standards did it differently that the 110Bs.
Elias
Then someone should design a better coupler.
BTW, how would a train like that be configured? 4 2 car sets? 2 4 car sets? 2 3 car sets and 2 trailers?
From page 18 of NYCTA's 1953-54 annual report, in the section talking about the Fulton Street Extension (Grant Avenue, etc.):
"Station platforms on the Liberty Avenue Line will be lengthened to accommodate the longer IND type trains."
David
Might I assume that they were lengthened to 660 feet.
80th Street: 675 feet
88th Street: 675
Rockaway Boulevard: 675
104th Street: 670
111th Street: 676
Lefferts Boulevard: 657
David
Rush hour eight car sets of Standards were made up as follows...
A B set, a BX set and 2 A's or
Two B sets and 2 A's
Off rush six car trains were made up as follows...
A BX set and a B set or
Two B sets
Three car trains were always B sets
BX sets never ran as three car trains nor were two BX sets ever coupled together. On very rare occasions 3 A's could be substituted for a B set. Eight car trains of Standards were used on the Jamaica line during rush hours.
I believe that three car trains were only run overnight on the weekends. Trains were cut at 168th. It wasn't as complicated as it seems. If a six car train of B's came in to 168th, it was cut to three to go back out. The next six car train in was laid up, and the remaining three car train would replace it.
Complicated was the operation at rush hour at 111th St. The gate cars of the Lexington Ave el were added to or subtracted from depending on the hour at 111th. 2 car trains became 5, 3 car trains became 5, and 5 car trains became 3 at the end of rush hour. It was a fascinating operation to watch even though you couldn't see the actual coupling and uncoupling which was done east of the station on the center track. I believe that a similar operation was conducted east of Grant Ave on the Fulton St el to the Fulton-Lex cars.
I can only imagine the moves required at 111th street pre 1950.
Karl's post about the various arrangements for rush-hour service reminds me that the very same thing is done here in South Jersey on PATCO today. Here, there are 6-car rush-hour consists; 2 cars for mid-day and evening and 1 car makes the trip overnight. The effect minimizes cost and unnecessary wear and tear, which the MTA seems to have forgotten about.
Oriente Station, Portugal
There, it's smaller in size file wise and looks nicer!
Mark
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Coming back to NY, I heard goals of extending natural light down to track level, which would be a monumental achievement, especially since it means tearing down a significant proportion of the current construction! If he can do it, more power to him!!!!
That's better than the other sort of design (eg London Euston) - everyone loathes it!
Inside I thought the station was reasonably well laid out, the couple of times I used it.
If I had to pick a station I liked in the UK, I think it would be York.
It's perfectly functional (I still find getting out of the Underground disorientating there), but platform level is exceptionally grim and the outside is just crap architecture.
Bill "Newkirk"
The only other stations on the Broadway-Jamaica-Myrtle (north) Els that stayed wood after the dual contracts rebuild were:
-Marcy: because that was an unrebuilt original 1888 station.
-Metropolitan (M) - unrebuilt under dual contracts when they extended the El from Wyckoff to Metro over the original surface ROW.
-The Fulton J stations: Also unrebuilt under the dual contracts.
168th St was built along with the rest of the line, and all the other stations on the line had concrete platforms from the beginning.
Were they?
Also check out "Steve-8th Ave Exp's" photo showing Knickerbocker Ave in the 30's and it was concrete.
http://groups.msn.com/TheATrain/newyorkcity1936.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=89
I'm sure KarlB can tell us for sure, but I am 99% sure that all those stations on Broadway/Jamaica/Myrtle (north) were concrete when built in 1914-1918.
The only other stations on the Broadway-Jamaica-Myrtle (north) Els that stayed wood after the dual contracts rebuild were:
-Marcy: because that was an unrebuilt original 1888 station.
-Metropolitan (M) - unrebuilt under dual contracts when they extended the El from Wyckoff to Metro over the original surface ROW.
-The Fulton J stations: Also unrebuilt under the dual contracts.
168th St was built along with the rest of the line, and all the other stations on the line had concrete platforms from the beginning.
Let's see, a terminal with a wooden platform while the others were concrete. Perhaps a planned extension of the line beyond 168th St. so outside concrete platforms could be built, thus a simpler demolition of the wooden island platform. Myabe that's it !
Bill "Newkirk"
Cypress Hills = temporary
168th = temporary (possibly)
Queens Blvd = temporary
121st St = temporary
Jamaica Center = was (is?) not supposed to be permanent either as the 1970's plan had the line going further.
http://www.nycsubway.org/bmt/jamaica/
Manhattan Bridge Brochure Scan
If you go to the New York Transit Museum Store in Grand Central, they have plenty there for you to take.
So, Dave if you read this let me know how you made out apartment hunting...
Of course, I was already running late for my appointment in Sunset Park, so even a few seconds was beginning to feel like an eternity. As it turned out, it would be quite a while before the (R) actually did make an appearance at DeKalb. I had come in on the (Q) from Times Square, and had gotten off at DeKalb to make the transfer. My (Q) train was stuck there forever with holding lights before finally pulling out. Doug's (W) train comes in right behind it, and is again stuck for a long time with holding lights. A few minutes after Doug pulls out, another (Q) comes in and makes a stop. Luckily, no holding lights this time, and it pulls right out. Only a few minutes later does my (R) train finally pull in. I finally made it to my appointment about 30 minutes late.
But the day has only just begun....
I quickly look at the apartment, and then need to run because I have another appointment in an hour in Greenpoint. I get back in the subway station at 53rd and look at the map, planning my itinerary: (R) to 9th Street, (F) to Smith/9th, and then the (G) to Greenpoint Avenue.
Simple, right?
Ah, but for those two little letters G and O. And this turned out to be one royal pain in the ass of a G.O., partly because of poor communication by the MTA, and partly due to my own stupidity for not reading the service advisories carefully and taking a few extra seconds to plan my trip accordingly.
Thanks to the G.O., Manhattan-bound (F) trains were running on the express tracks between 4th Avenue and Jay Street, and the (G) was terminating at Hoyt-Schemerhorn. And for icing on the cake, the (G) was running in two sections: As a single-track shuttle between Hoyt-Schemerhorn and Bedford-Nostrand, and regular service from Bedford-Nostrand to Queens.
So, with the G.O. in effect, here's what I should have done:
1. (R) train to DeKalb Avenue.
2. Leave the system and walk the couple blocks to Hoyt-Schemerhorn.
3. (G) shuttle from Hoyt-Schemerhorn to Bedford-Nostrand.
4. (G) train from Bedford-Nostrand to Greenpoint Avenue.
Simple, right?
Here's what really happened:
1. (R) train to 9th Street.
2. Walk upstairs and catch (F) train after short wait.
3. Think to myself, "So far so good."
4. Quietly wonder why we're switching over to the express tracks after leaving 4th Avenue.
5. Wonder why we're skipping Smith-9th, especially with no announcements being made on the train. (Apparently I wasn't the only one confused; there were a number of angry and confused-looking people on the Manhattan-bound platform at Smith-9th.)
6. Figure, "Oh well, no problem... I can still transfer to the (G) at Carroll or Bergen."
7. Get a sinking feeling (literally) as the tracks go down to the seldom-used lower level at Carroll.
8. Think to myself, "If this were any other day, I'd be very excited to be riding on the lower level express tracks on this line. But today, this really sucks."
9. Get off the (F) train as soon as I'm able, which happens to be Jay Street.
10. Listen to the announcements being repeated in the station. They sound important, but infortunately, I can't understand a word being said. Something about Bergen, Carroll, and Smith-9th, and about crossing over to the other platform to catch the (G) train.
11. Ignore the service advisories that were probably plastered all over the station, but cross over to the other platform and look at the map.
12. Think, "Okay, I guess we're supposed to take a Brooklyn-bound (F) train back to Bergen and then transfer to the (G).
13. Wait on the outbound platform for the (F) as an (A) train comes and goes on the inner track.
14. Board the next outbound (F) train.
15. As train makes the stop at Bergen, look out the window and notice that the inbound track is blocked with all sorts of work cars and construction equipment.
16. Realize that no Queens-bound (G) train would be able to stop there, so I remain on the (F) train.
17. Begin to panic.
18. Get off the train at the next stop, which happens to be Carroll.
19. Still thinking I could somehow transfer to the Queens-bound (G) train here, begen the process of crossing over to the other platform.
29. Notice the red tape blocking the stairs to the inbound platform.
30. Begin to curse like a drunken sailor.
31. Finally notice all the service advisories that cover the station walls like wallpaper.
32. Read the service advisories, study the map, and realize I should have taken that outbound (A) train back at Jay Street (see #13).
33. Look at my watch and resume cursing like a drunken sailor.
34. Wait for the next outbound (F) train, since that's obviously the only way I'm getting out of this station.
35. Watch another inbound (F) train go down the ramped express tracks to the lower level. It's finally beginning to click.
36. Take the next outbound (F) train back to 4th Avenue, and cross under to the inbound platform.
37. Take the next inbound (F) train.
38. Again, ponder the lack of announcements on the train, and again, look at the angry and confused people on the inbound Smith-9th platform as we pass them.
39. Go back through the lower level express tracks, thinking, "Wow, twice in one day".
40. Exit the train at Jay Street, and cross over to the other platform.
41. Take the next (C) train to Hoyt-Schemerhorn.
42. Read the service advisories about the (G) train running in two sections, and resume cursing like a drunken sailor.
43. Cross over to the other platform and board the (G) shuttle.
44. Take the (G) shuttle to Bedford-Nostrand.
45. Exit the (G) shuttle and take the other (G) train to Greenpoint Avenue.
44. Walk in the snow/rain to appointed address, showing up an hour late.
45. Find out the room as already been rented to somebody else earlier that afternoon.
46. Walk back to the Greenpoint Avenue station in the rain/snow, while cursing like a drunken sailor.
Oh well.... I still have another appointment in 30 minutes, and luckily, it's in the same neighborhood, near the Nassau Avenue stop on the (G). Only one stop away...
Simple, right?
Well, it would have been, if I hadn't gotten my normally-reliable sense of direction turned around on the mezzanine at Greenpoint Avenue, walked down the stairs to the wrong platform, and mistakenly boarded a train headed in the wrong direction... Not even realizing my mistake until I find myself at 21st Street in Queens.
Sheepishly, I exit the train and wait on the platform for a Brooklyn-bound (G) train. I get off at Nassau and manage to make it to the apartment a mere 20 minutes late. (By the way, there's so many Polish people in that neighborhood I thought I was back in Chicago.)
Note to self next time I travel in unfamiliar territory on the subway:
1) Read the fucking service advisories.
2) Read the fucking map.
3) Read the fucking signs in the stations.
4) Get more than three hours of sleep the next time I plan on driving to NYC and wandering all over the city the following day, even if it means going to bed at 6:00 PM with a tall glass of NyQuil.
As for the housing search? Well, at least I finally found out what a "railroad apartment" is. The room for rent in the Greenpoint place (near the Nassau stop) was a tiny middle room in a railroad apartment with no windows and no privacy. Fuck that.
So far the place in Sunset Park seems like the best option, but I haven't totally decided yet. It's a small room, but at least it's private and has a window, and it's only two blocks from the subway. I may be looking at a couple other places before I make a final decision.
And, as if my adventures on the subway yesterday weren't enough, my damn unemployment check still hasn't arrived in the mail, forcing me to re-schedule my three Tuesday job interviews. Hopefully I'll be able to make it back to NYC later in the week, possibly Thursday (assuming the check finally shows up within the next day or two).
And to add insult to injury, I hit a chunk of ice while driving uptown on Henry Hudson Parkway on Sunday morning while heading to church. It broke loose the already-hanging-by-a-thread exhaust system, making my four-cylinder Volvo sound like my old V8 Trans Am, and greatly reducing the car's already-pathetic horsepower. After limping my way back to Philadelphia late Sunday night, no doubt waking up anybody who lives within a mile of the New Jersey Turnpike, I think it's a safe bet that Sven's remaining days are very short in number. (The car has no heat, and brakes and transmission are already almost shot.) Once I'm settled in NYC and near a subway, the first item on the agenda is to shove that car off a very tall bridge.
Here endeth the lesson...
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
And once the car goes over the side in Red Hook, you'll want to stop off at a sporting goods store, pick up a baseball bat and be ready for the next Upper West Side subtalker who thinks that outer borough expresses should make all local stops. Heh.
Seriously, my sympathies ... sounds like life on the D train.
Incidentally, the Manny B. was being worked on (as usual) so all Manhattan-bound service that goes through DeKalb was rerouted through the tubes for the weekend (meaning everything went local between DeKalb and Canal Street).
Well, my dad was in the Navy for 30 years and I spent most of my childhood growing up on military bases, so I actually knew quite a few. :-)
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
When I rented our first post-marriage place here in Windsor Terrace, the most we could afford was a 400 square foot apartment on the ground floor overlooking the Prospect Expressway. This was in the 1980s boom (1986), which was similar to the 1990s boom except that this time real estate prices haven't come down in the recession (but they will). The price was about $1025 in today's dollars. We signed the lease and I gave them a check.
Sometime later, the real estate broker called me in Yonkers, at my grandparents' house. They were concerned that my check might bounce and, safely in my apartment, I might stiff them on the fee. They insisted on a certified check -- right now -- before I could have the keys. I had no car.
Unfortunately, I had become rather ill with step throat in the interim. I felt like I was going to pass out. But I go on the the #2 Westchester bus in Yonkers down to 242nd, changed to the A train at 168th, changed to the F train at Jay Street (a route I would later do many times), and staggered down Prospect Park West to the real estate office to give them my certified check. The room was spinning. Then I asked them if I could use the bathroom.
They said no.
Almost a decade later, in 1993, we decided to buy a house in the neighborhood. And that same damn real estate company had the house on the block we wanted and at the price I thought was fair. I refused to do business with them, but my wife was really interested. So we ended up buying the house and giving those bastards ANOTHER fee.
Ah, the miracles of rent control. Quite unlike what I saw in Phoenix a bit over a year ago, with billboards outside apartment complexes advertising first month's rent free and subsidized utilities.
They said no.
On top of that, you can't compare Phoenix to New York. Phoenix land is cheaper because they have it up the wazoo, that affects the market more than rent control.
A fair comparison would be Chicago vs. New York. Illinois does not have rent control and from what I've heard, the market for renting in Chicago is a lot better.
I don't care for the concept of rent control, but from what I understand, few buildings in NYC are truly rent controlled anymore, but many are rent stabilized. If rent stabilization suddenly ended in NYC, apartment rents would immediately skyrocket to even more obcene levels, like they did in Boston. IMO, rent stabilization does a much better job of balancing the interests of landlords and tenants.
If NYC wanted to have a rental market as easy as Chicago's, they should have ended rent control 60 years ago and allowed for plenty of new construction whenever housing demand increased. However, those things haven't happened, and we've got the mess we're in now. (And as somebody currently trying to find housing in NYC, I'm in the middle of that mess.)
Given the current realities in NYC, this is what I would suggest:
1) Phase out rent control per se, but keep the rent stabilization system in place, possibly with some tweaking. (Landlords can charge market rates for new tenants, but once a new tenant has a lease, rent can only be raised by "X" percent each year, and the tenant has the right to renew their lease each year as long as they pay on time and obey the rules. Landlords also receive incentives for maintaining and upgrading their properties, unlike under the old rent control system.)
2) Tell these neighborhood NIMBY groups to fuck off, speed up the review and permits process, and allow for more residential construction in the city. This isn't to say we should suddenly level Greenwich Village and build skyscrapers there, but there's still plenty of places in the city that could use some further residential development. (And if Aunt Bessie didn't want high-rises in her neighborhood, she shouldn't have moved to the Upper West Side to begin with.)
3) Reform the housing court system so that squatters can be evicted in a timely manner. The reasons behind such pro-tenant laws were well-meaning, but they've been utterly counterproductive. Nobody should be required to have a 700+ credit rating just to get approved for a modest apartment. Affordable housing is a right, not a privledge given only to those with a perfect financial history.
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
(Rent control rarely if ever applies to newly constructed buildings.)
A little history. One criticism of rent regulation is that it provides a disincentive to build new buildings or invest in existing ones, since you have a potential downside (rents fall) but not an upside. This reduces the supply of housing, thus increasing rents overall, with the increase greater for tenants without the good rental deals. The response is that new buildings are exempt from rent regulation, and are thus unaffected.
Well, that's true under todays rules, but anyone investing in new rental buildings in the city has to know that those rules can change at any time, and their rent increases can be limited, or their rents reduced. Speculative? It would be, if it had not happened once before.
Rent control had a new buildling exemption. Everyone believed it, and from the end of WWII to the end of the 1960s, rental housing construction went on as before, subject to the falling amount of vacant land in the city. There was no negative effect. In fact there was a huge housing construction boom in the early 1960s which led to falling rents and the bankruptcy of many of the city's major apartment developers.
This cut production for a while, and then rents began to rise. And, voila, the state imposed rent stabilization of on all the apartment buildings built after WWII! After the fact! You call that balancing the interests of landlords and tenants?
Of course, rent stabilization exempted all new rental buildings constructed after THAT time (aside from those receiving tax abatements in Manhattan). But no one built any, not until the late 1990s when people were also buying internet stocks.
Would I want my savings invested in new rental housing in NYC? No way.
And it wasn't even until about 11:00 PM on Monday that somebody informed me that the day was a federal holiday. Hence, no mail service. Arrrgh!
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
Go over to Subway Web News and check out the photos at Stillwell.
I got from Grand to Pacific via S to Broadway-Lafayette to 6 to Canal to W (after a 10-minute walk along ultra-slippery tile) to Pacific. I didn't realize the south side was closed; I could have walked it in less time.
Also, a better short story
RIDE THE TRAIN
Light rail 'a treat,' but ride takes time
He also puts it perfectly:
"The train was a treat, mainly because it did not bump or veer or grind its gears and roar its engine as buses do..."
nothing like being on any "premium" express bus as it sits in stop stop stop, go, stop stop traffic. They should make a rollercoaster like that.
PHOTOS:
A sign of the times (50k)
Switching to the express (122k)
Dark signal (66k)
Bypassing Smith-9th (94k)
R-32's on the run (100k)
R-32's on the run II (100k)
R-32's on the run III (97k)
The Door (78k)
The Door II (83k)
VIDEOS (in DivX format):
Leaving 4th Avenue (870k)
4th Avenue to dark signal (6.5M)
Dark signal to portal (2.6M)
Portal to GO end (7.5M)
BERG'N sideways (1.3M)
Started at 4th Avenue. Saw one R-32 set go SB. A little bit later, an R-32 set came in NB (having ignored the car numbers, I assumed it was the same one). Rode to Jay. Crossed over and returned to Smith-9th for photos. The second NB train past was the first R-32 set I had seen -- rats! Hoping for a third set, and forgetting quite how long a round trip on the F is, spent the next few hours exploring the underground stations between 7th and Church (brief summary: they're creepy), with one side trip through BERG'N on an R-46. After listening to a few iterations of a very good guitarist at 7th, finally got the first R-32 set back, for my final ride.
All in all, the rehabbed Bredas were nice. Really reminds me of a CAF, but a little different. The door chimes and announcements are the same as the CAF 5000's.
Here's some pictures of the Bredas. These will be included in my "The Schumin Web Transit Center" site, currently under construction. All photos are clickable, which will go to a larger version.
Front of the new Bredas. Note the "Emergency Access" sign on the door, and the LED sign. I'm told that the taillights are also now LED.
Operator's console.
End-of-car door. Note the "EXIT" signs on the door.
Wheelchair icon next to first and third doors.
LED sign replaces flip-dot sign. Also, that row of lights that appears to be off does not look like that in person.
Overview of the interior. Quite similar to the 5000 trains.
New sign above the priority seating next to the center door.
Center door, left side. Note "doors" is still plural, the light above the door, plus the "EXIT" sign.
Overview of exterior.
Non-cab end of car. Note sand-colored seats.
System map. I was surprised to find that the system map is not the most up-to-date. The map in the train still shows Morgan Boulevard as "Summerfield", and National Airport still has a short name.
Car numbers for Breda 2075 and 2074. Note the "AC" beneath the numbers.
Emergency exit door handle.
LED sign in action. Unlike the CAF trains, the LED on the Bredas is flush with everything else.
Car number on cab door. Unlike the Rohrs, "AC" is not at this location.
Arrows showing door side (we were arriving at Pentagon City). Also, the railfan window on these cars is really fan-friendly, being very light-colored.
Alstom nameplate. Says "Remanufactured by ALSTOM, Hornell, New York, USA". No more Breda horse.
Also, movies:
Stopping at Eisenhower Avenue - note the new door chimes
Approaching National Airport, with LED in action.
So there you are. Nice little train, it is.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
There a couple of suddle differences. The windshield wiper controls are slightly different and the diagnostic display is mounted differenctly. The car numbers are on both ends of the cars.
John
Accelerating, view this movie which is after I got off the train, thanked the train operator for letting me take the photos of the cab, and then the train left. Sounds different from both a Rohr and a CAF, and definitely different than the original Bredas.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
That's a crime. They should leave the old plate and just add a new one next to it.
During special events or conventions, however, it's a totally different ballgame. You have all the non-regular riders for some reason worried that train doors will close in the middle of hundreds of passengers trying to get on/off. They are the ones who try to trample over everyone and mess everything up.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Ben F. Schumin :-)
"Next stop Metro Center, doors opening on the left"
Also, last month I was on a train (forget which car type though) and the third announcement played....but instead of a nice pleasant "please stand clear of the doors, thank you", it was perhaps the rudest automated transit announcement I had ever heard, which essentially yelled "PLEASE STAND CLEAR OF THE DOORS!!!". No thank you. Very rude voice. Loud! It almost made me jump back in fear when I heard it! Although maybe it might be psychologically more effective on door holders...and that might be a good thing!
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Do- Please stand clear of the doors. Thank you!
Ben F. Schumin :-)
D- Coney Island/205 St BX (Brighton Local - CPW Express/ Concourse Express)
C- WTC or Euclid Av / 205 st BX Bronx (Concourse Local)
Q- Coney Island/179 st Qns (Brighton Express/Bway Express via 63st/Queens blvd-hillside express)
F- Coney Island (Culver express / 6 av local/ Queens Express via 63 st- Hillside Local)
G- Kings Hwy /Court Sq or 71 ave(rush) (Culver-smith st local/Queens local)
W- Bay Parkway-Astoria(West end express-4 ave express/bway local via tunnel/Astoria Express
N- coney is/ astoria (Sea beach local-bway express Switch@ 57 st - astoria local)
- Coney is- Astoria (sea beach express-4 av express-bway exp- astoria local)
M- 95 st/metropolitan (4 av exp-nassau local-broadway el express)
tell me what u think asap
2) 205th Street can't handle 2 services
3) Q and F are redundant - what runs through 53rd St or are you going to close that tunnel?
4) Are you closing the 11th St cut?
5) What serves Rockaway Park, far Rock & 207th St?
6) I suppose the Eartern Division will be replaced by busses?
Dude, maybe you should spend a little more time reading or scale back the scope of your plans. Work one line at a time, perhaps!
TD
Ha!
HA! HA! HA!
1Pfft9
til next time
#3 West End Jeff
I=I
A=Agree
W=With
Y=You
(not like Broadway Junction INVENTED it, brah.) :)
Thanks!
This weekend, Manhattan Bridge service was again interrupted (who knows if they'll provide full weekend service after the Feb 22 switch). And #7 service was suspended between Queens and Manhattan as it so often has been for the past few years.
Though a 100-year system needs maintenance, the MTA is going to have to come up with something less heavy handed and continue service in a city where many different areas are being populated and developed than before.
The MTA increasingly wants to call passengers 'customers.' Perhaps customers should be treated as such.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Again, there is no discussion of costs vs. benefits, only an assumption that the MTA can absorb unlimited costs -- without higher fares or more general revenues (through reduced spending on other services or higher taxes).
Does the article provide a reasonable estimate of what it costs to set construction up, work for three hours, then clear construction up in the middle of the day? Or the risks of working under traffic? Even the over-the-weekend work is NOT a long time. I'd bet that if work proceeded the way it was done on the Willie B or Lenox avenue -- long term shutdown and all-out work -- that work would take 1/4 the time and cost 1/2 as much. And since the work is funded by debt, the increase in cost is "huge."
My guess is that the MTA cowers in a corner every time a political group says "boo," without ever reaching out to the actual community and giving them the real story. And then it just cuts (other places) projects out the capital plan and borrows more money to make up the cost.
Where, exactly, will that lead? Add it up, and amortize it on the basis of having to replace things as they wear out continually. Compare it to the tax/fare levels the people of the city can afford. It's too much money!
True, but true of any kind of infrastructure maintenance. I think the most you can say is that the MTA should do a better job of laying out the whole long term maintenance needs on every line and station, so people can plan for it, that it should consider that non-rush hours are more important to more people than they used to be, and that work should be done faster. People should also understand that work is ongoing, and will not be "finished" although there will be more or less work in different places at different times.
But to say the MTA is putting dollar savings over time savings flies in the face of what, in my view, actually goes on.
IAWTP: I wonder how often the MTA works with the contractor to ensure that the maximum amount of work is carried out every time that there is a service suspension. Ie: if there is work to be carried out at points A, B and C along the line, ensure that the contractor has sufficient staff so that the work is executed in parallel rather than series.
The rebuilding of the 1/9 line through the WTC site is an example, being finished in a remarkable short (for NY) period of time at least in part because it could go on uninterrupted.
I think the primary one is lack of communications: the MTA has maintenance and upgrading it needs to accomplish, but in this case there was some flexibility in the timing–did subway service have to be suspended on a busy shoping weekend in the middle of the holiday season? Williamsburgh businesses lost money because people who would have travelled by subway to buy holiday presents didn’t when the subway service was bustituted for the weekend.
If the neighborhood association and the MTA had consulted on the timings, they might have agreed that January and February would be good times to suspend service–we have a couple of holiday weekends that would allow a 3-day shut down even, and shopping is at a relatively low level anyway.
David
MTA does need to communicate better. But, as usual, you're reading more into the whining than there really is.
Yes, the system should shut down for a while periodically and get the work done. And it COULD, if we the riders could TRUST the MTA to TELL us what they're going to do. But there is such a long history of evasion and slipping around the truth, that the lines of communication have shut down. The culture is, MTA management is at war with the customers. And it is a shame, because MTA maintenance employees work so damn hard and so damn fast in such horrible conditions with such unappreciative and politicized management.
Or everyone can bare with the MTA and make the situation less annoying than it can be. If the repairs are needed to where subway service can't be offered for a short period of time, then fighting about it wont do much help.
Yes and no.
If the MTA is providing information then there is no reason for protest. As long as it's not happening on a daily basis (i.e. The 7 ending at Queensboro Plaza since god knows when). And if the MTA's doing the best they can to ensure as little discomfort as possible, then protesting won't help. And from what I seen, the riding public (or customers) need to pay more attention to whats going on.
On the other hand, if there is a lack of information (again with the 7) then there is reason to say something.
With the L, the MTA is sorta doing its best to inform everyone. The L is a two track line, and it goes into areas few other subway lines venture. So a suspension of subway service might be the only way to do what they have to do.
The MTA is not my mother. I'm not going to change the way it does its work. But I deserve to know when I am going to be denied service.
Of course, when I say sorta, I mean the MTA can do WAY better in informing it's customers about what's going on. There is a BIG lack of communication between the transportation agency and the riding public (and strappies isn't helping much imo). And yes that needs to be fixed.
Now, about you not changing the way it does work: If you feel you deserve to know when youre going to be denied service, then shouldn't you say something? If you feel that the MTA isn't doing its job, then try to do something. Even if it's writing a letter.
Because it is a two track line, that is a good reason to close it fully. But because it goes into areas where few other subway lines venture, meaning there are ZERO alternatives, then they ought to look at other ways to mitigate the effects. This could be anything from shutting only one track and offering slow, infrequent service, but still offerring service, or it could have direct express bus service to Manhattan via the midtown tunnel, with a stop at Grand Central for the 4/5/6 and the Shuttle to the west side lines. That, IMO, would be a much better solution then what they are doing now. Also, they might want to spread out the service disruptions...say every other weekend or every third weekend so as not to inconvenience people too much. If there were other subway lines in the area, then a full closure wouldn't be such a big deal.
And I completely agree.
This sorta goes back to my theory about the MTA being to cheap to consider alternatives
(less trackage used=less trains in service=fewer trains in the shops=more money since possibly less trains will have to go OOS, and less parts have to be ordered. Or More stations closed=less booth clerks on duty=more money in the MTA's pockets).
Also. This does show the lack of communication between the MTA and the riding public. They could of sent a representative to the areas affected if this is going to be a long term thing, and try to work something out, and maybe some of the suggestions you came up with could of been implimented instead of a suspension in service. Same thing with the 7. Same damn GO for years, yet no one speaks to these people.
MTA=Money Thrown Away
Again, it isn't as you say, but I don't want to say more about it, for various reasons.
(Also. This does show the lack of communication between the MTA and the riding public.)
Well, if people interested enough to post on this board do not know the extent of communication, the cost of alternatives, the schedule of work, etc., and if you and others believe the decisions are arbitrary and cheap, then perhaps not enough has been communicated.
No one's ever going to be happy with disruption. My wife wasn't happy when the scraped all the pavement off our street just before Christmas with virtually no warning, aside from a few signs saying no parking on the street on Monday posted on Sunday. Asphalt dust all over our house after the Chrismas dinner guests tromped through. But they have to repave sometime.
Yeah, they have to pave sometime, but DOT also needs a course in when to communicate.
My block was scraped in late June (first time in 20-odd years my neighbor has been here, and we're supposed to be on a 15 year cycle). Twice during the summer, No Parking notices appeared. No asphalt appeared either time. In September - 3 months later (and DOT swears the time frame is 2 weeks between milling and paving) - they finally arrived to pave the street. With no prior notice. Three days after they finished paving, I and my neighbors received letters informing us that our street was scheduled to be milled and repaved. The letters were dated a week into the future from when we received them. Makes Transit look well-versed in communication.
Example: after a weekend G/O WITH bus shuttle service in Hunter's Point, something failed and there was no 7 on a Monday a.m. No notices. No shuttle. Hostile booth agent. And the attitude was, "well, we have to fix it, don't we? All the riders ever do is bitch."
Shuttle service is PREDICTABLE. Posted signs are PREDICTABLE. An occasional incomprehensible (and I'm a native English speaker) mumble over the few working train speakers: "this train is goin' out of service" -- is why we are no longer supportive of the work the MTA has to do.
C'mon, educate me.
I'm not talking about the people on this board. I'm talking about the riding public in general. The people who DONT ride the subway for pleasure. I'm talking about the people who don't know what's going on in the subway system.
As for the 7 GO, I wouldn't mind it if they'd INCREASE astoria line service when it was going on! Come on, it is NOT THAT HARD to extend the (Q) to Queensboro!
So how does this apply to subways? Simple. The same three rules apply for subway closures. granted, there is no such thing as a closure that "maintains traffic", since you can't just close a lane on a subway track, its either closed or its not.....but still, short vs long term closures can be decided upon according to these rules, with a short term closure being overnight and med-term being a weekend, and long term involving weekdays. Most long term closures involve stations, not tracks, as spare track capacity is hard to come by. But stations have been successfully closed for long periods of time without too many complaints, as long as nearby stations aren't too far away. Its the medium term closures that affect people the most, as entire lines get shut down. If there is nearby alternative route with spare capacity (such as an express track where the local gets shut down, or a nearby line a block away), then its not a big deal. This is often the case in Manhattan.
Its the outer boroughs where the lines are spread out and there are often no express/local tracks to reroute trains onto...such as the 7, the L, and the J. Here we have several alternatives: nighttime closures, weekend closure of only one track, or full closure of both tracks. In the case of the L, shutting down two tracks is better then just shutting down one...i'm assuming the same holds true for the 7.....since with single track operation, you'd still have service, still have the same number of people, but have significantly less capacity, more crowds, more angry people. But you'd still have service. Full closure means no service, angry people, but at least people who were informed in advance that there would be no service. Closing the route down at night would lead to very long project time and would probably not be feasible.
This all being said, the MTA could do some things to mitigate the concerns of the community members. For example, with the 7 closure, there is a shuttle bus that takes people from Vernon-Jackson, Hunterspoint, and Court House Square to Queensboro Plaza, where they can catch the N/W into Manhattan. 7 train riders east of Queensboro have decent service into Manhattan, and an acceptable alternate. Vernon-Jackson riders get screwed...one stop from Manhattan, yet they have to travel east....by bus....then go back west. Why does the shuttle bus have to go to Queensboro Plaza? Why not a shuttle bus running from Court House Square, Hunterspoint Ave, and Vernon Jackson go directly into Manhattan via the midtown tunnel? It could drop people off right next to Grand Central terminal where they could hop onto the Lex or the Shuttle to Times Square and then onto a west side line. I betcha anything that travel time would be significantly reduced since the midtown tunnel is within spitting distance of Vernon Jackson!
As for the L....if they have to close it during weekends, they should have planned it better when those weekends would occur. In residential neighborhoods, or neighborhoods where the shopping is mostly for residents (food stores, etc), its not as bad to close the subway there the weekend before christmas, but in a "trendy" shopping area like Williamsburg that attracts a good chunk of its clientele from Manhattan, shutting down its link to its customers the week before christmas is downright preposterous. I'm sure the MTA wouldn't have figured this out on their own, but if they had listened to the community, then maybe they could have picked better weekends to do the closures. And closing 2 manhattan - long island links on the same weekend should probably be avoided as well.
In summary, I think better planning with the communities is needed, and they need to make sure that suitable alternatives exist before implementing full closures. As for the reason why they are closing the L every weekend....I feel that MTA should have chosen a different line to be their "test case" for their new signal systems. ANything thats new and being tested takes longer to set up, install, test, and implement...and they should have done it on a line with express and local service that would not have to require full closures and disrupt communities the way they are doing now.
MTA=Money Thrown Away
I would just disagree on one point. The L is a good test case because it is isolated from other lines (KISS). The 7 would be the only other choice and is more complicated because of the third track.
But again I would agree that you can do anything if you work to get the community behind you so that the people buy into the improvements and are prepared for the disruptions that they necessitate.
A reasoble post on your part. The last point is valid so long as the QMT isn't a parking lot (which happens sometimes).
The tunnel is usually a breeze on weekends, and it isn't even all that bad during peak hours, thanks to the fact that there's a free crossing only 3/4 mile away :).
Thank you.
Even if the tunnel is bad, the inbound delays are usually worse then the outbound delays. Outbound you have signalized streets delivering a steady stream of traffic at a constant rate. The bus doesn't have to go that far from the tunnel to get to Grand Central and vice versa (exit at 35th and 3rd [usually faster then 37th and 3rd exit], go up 3rd to 42nd St, take 42nd 1 block to Lex....stop there, GCT is essentially on that corner....then take Lex to 36th St and back into the tunnel. The only place where there is likely to be a serious delay is on the inbound tunnel, since the LIE's 3 lanes are capeable of delivering a lot more traffic to the tunnel then the tunnel can handle.....but since the bus would be accessing the tunnel via local streets (vernon/jackson is literally a block from the tunnel portal), this is a moot point. I've never seen the entrance from vernon-jackson with more then a car or two, and it gets its own E-ZPass lane in the toll plaza. All that being said, MTA busses shouldn't have to pay a toll to use the tunnel, owned by MTA. So voila, we have a solution. All thats needed are some signs directing people from 42nd and Lex to the subway entrance inside GCT.
Quite startling. Rather than just 'moving out,' have they considered holding hearings with the MTA? I'm hoping those businessmen and women don't give up on a thriving area.
This weekend, Manhattan Bridge service was again interrupted (who knows if they'll provide full weekend service after the Feb 22 switch). And #7 service was suspended between Queens and Manhattan as it so often has been for the past few years.
I can't comment on the Manny-B disruptions, but I'm just hoping they'll be less of them (if any) once full Bridge service is restored. The 7 seems to be eternally under repairs but it's going to turn to hell once CBTC wanders along toward the 7 line.
Though a 100-year system needs maintenance, the MTA is going to have to come up with something less heavy handed and continue service in a city where many different areas are being populated and developed than before.
Perhaps they can't. If that's not the case, there needs to be more 'communication' between the passengers and the MTA.
What it boils down to is reasons.Everytime there's no train service, THERE IS A REASON FOR IT!All this work is NECESSARY to not only upgrade and maintain the subway system but to also prevent any accidents from occuring thus resulting in the injuries and/or fatalities of passengers.Yet people have the damn gulls to complain,bitch and flap thier gums every damn time!They fail to realize that all this is being done FOR THEM!FOR THIER OWN GOOD and for the good of the subway system itself.Let's face it.It's been said before.When the subway crumbles,people complain.When they fix it,people STILL complain.It's a lose-lose situation.
Da Hui
www.hometown.aol.com/yank2304/subway1.html
Couple of problems I have with the new R-17 set
# 1 - You can see the wires in the front circular window, doing down vertically - not a huge deal, looks like a railfan looking out the window from a distance
# 2 - You can see huge yellow caps in the trailers, holding wires together....hard to see but there if you look in the car....other than that, beautiful paint scheme - As with all protosound 2.0 sets, these cars work very well in auto mode by programming them first and pressing Bell-Horn-Horn on the transformer. This has the train stop and start automatically without physcially lowering the throttle -
im sorry but I do not know how to hyperlink or post pictures within this post!!! But plase copy and paste the site I gave you. Enjoy!
You uhhh forgot the 'Http://' after the a href="...
Regards,
Jimmy
Regards,
Jimmy
D.
The photos can be seen at:
http://palter.org/~brotzman/11-08-03_BALTIMORE_STREETCAR_MUSEUM/
Here are the best ones.
Here is 4533 which is some sort of trolley with a freakishly long single truck.
Here is 1050 which is some other model with an open cab and hand braking.
I am sure Dan can fill you all in with the details.
First the points..well point.
And the frog...
Here is the only powered switch at the BSM
And a diamond...
The switch in Mike's shot is a girder rail switch.
The movable point is called the "live mate".
The non-movable point is called the "dead mate"
All girder rail switches can be powered, manual or a spring switch.
The switch in the set of pics is of the switch to our Track Four. It is sprung so that a car backing through the switch will be directed straight to the siding.
The Electric switch (which Mike called a powered switch) is the entry switch to the North Avenue Loop and is controlled by a Cheatham Electric Switch System. There is a contactor on the trolley wire, 55 feet from the point. As a car approaches the switch, if the motorman holds one point of power as the trolley wheel passes through the contactor the point will throw to the curve, if the motorman drifts going though the contactor the point will throw straight.
Next time I am down I'll make sure to take some photos of that and work up a little diagram.
Usually girder rail switches are as Baltimore (and Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Johnstown, Chicago, etc.) had, but conduit operations always had both points "live". This is because there is a guide for the plow that is rod connected to both points. In North America conduit operation was found only in New York and Washington, DC.
-Robert King
When approaching an electric switch the operator of a PCC will have his foot on the brake pedal and press the "TSW" button on the gang switch.
The only property I know of that threw electric switches witt the power pedal was Shaker Rapid, which operated 3 and 4 car trains of PCC's with multiple poles on the wire without locking/unlocking contactors. Operating practice was to to approach the contactor with a slight applaction of power and hold that until the car or train was clear of the switch.
Here is the control stand....makes you realize just how many unnecessary bells and whistles the new control systems have.
And here is the freakishly long truck...I couldn't even get it in frame.
The Substation supplying the 600VDC overhead..
The BSM terminal loop...
The 28th St loop
The CSX Baltimore Terminal Sub Overpass
And a former Western Maryland RR roundhouse converted into a DoT facility...
It was built in 1911 and used until the Maryland Division was abandoned in 1958. The City purchased the entire Baltmore Terminal and uses the roundhouse as a highway maintainence facilty.
BSM has had a paved ROW though the yard since 1973.
The Northern Central's Baltimore end is today's Light Rail.
The M&P left Baltimore through the Wyman Park valley, through Towson and northeast to Bel Air. At Bel Air the line headed northwest to Whiteford Md, / Delta, PA and then north following Muddy Creek Fork to York.
This one which they hope to put back on rail wheels.
And this one, one of the original horsecars built for Baltimore transit over 144 years ago and recovered nearly intact from some guys farm. It can't be restored, but it is cool.
OF course a PCC
And PCC parts
And an old BTC wire truck
And what is appearently the world's fastest, hand brakes open trolley car. Dan claimed they got it up to 55mph on their quarter mile stretch of track.
55mph is pretty darn good for an open car. What type of motor does 1164 have? I don't have any listed for that car. Of course, it's the gearing that makes the speed.
Frank Hicks
Why they equipped a group of cars (Brill 1902) with Brill 22 trucks and double reduction hand brakes with 2 50HP motors without applying air brakes to the cars is a mystery.
The apparent top speed of 55 mph was a radar checked speed test (radar supplied by our friends at the Baltimore City Police Department) southbound from 26th Street. At the south end of the Shop, the car reached 55. The brakes were immediately applied and the car stopped short of the electric switch.
Needless to say, we don't try that every day, just once to see what
all the operating cars could do.
1164 can and does hit 40 in service. You would think a car with Brill 22 trucks would ride rough (they are Maximum Traction trucks), but she rides smooth.
Frank Hicks
1 inch would be more correct.
Special work is ramped so that the wheel rides on its flange through the break in the rail.
This is done to reduced the "jolt" the wheel whould make going through the break and reduce the noise that results. It is not injurious to either the flange or the wheel.
I think I may stop by...
(I'm in grad school now at College Park and Balto's not so far away at all)
-West End Scott
Actually everyone is always talking about it and there are not very many pics of it I felt I'd boost up the excitement level.
WSE, now Metro rider
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
wse
BSM's hours are Noon to 5:00 PM Every Sunday.
Same hours on Saturdays, June through October.
AirTrain will be the worst transit flop since the NYW&B went belly up in 1938.
Hate to say I told you so, but....
The gunfire broke out after three men in their 20s boarded an uptown "W" train at Eighth Street at about 4 a.m., police said. The three began to fight, and one pulled out a gun and opened fire, wounding one of his companions.
The wounded man, whose name was not released, was rushed to Bellevue Hospital, police said. The two others were arrested on the platform of the 14th Street-Union Square station; two guns were also recovered. No charges had been filed against them as of early Monday, said Sgt. Michael Wysokowski, an NYPD spokesman.
It was unclear what the men had been fighting about, he said.
Now that I have a contemporary account of my first ride on rails, I was curious if anyone else knows when or where their first rail trip took place. Ther ecould be some good stories floating around out there.
Mark
I'm sure my dad loved it because it the train was pulled by an old Southern Pacific Daylight, his favorite locomotive of all time.
Mark
Incidentally, that run of the Broadway was the last time it was pulled by steam; two steamers replaced the ailing diesels for part of the run, according to a newspaper clipping my mother has. (And yes, it still made Chicago on time.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Mark
(I'm a historian/archivist/librarian by training, but I've spent my entire working career in software and telecommunications, most of it as a project manager - I have this fondness for eating and supporting my family, and being a historian isn't exactly a lucrative profession. Perhaps that's why I enjoy volunteering as an operator/tour guide at Branford so much.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
My first passenger train ride was about 1961-1962 when our local cub scout troop took the Erie to Hoboken for a Circle Line trip around Manhattan. I saw some pictures of the trip a few years ago that a friend's mother had taken, and saw that the train was being pulled by and Alco PA-1. Then there were those wonderful old Stillwell cars....
I was probably way too young to remember my first subway ride. My parents took us into the city a lot, and taking the subways was the common mode of transport for us. I wish to heck that I had clearer memories of those early subway experiences...equipment, etc. Judging by the years we are talking about (early to mid 1950s) and the lines we took I can pretty much guess on the equipment; but I still wish I remembered more.
One early subway ride I remember particularly well, however. We were going to the Museum of Natural History, and my father accidentally got us on a Central Park West Express train. So we had to go all the way up to 125th Street and get on a southbound local to get us back to 81st Street.
I also, for some reason, have vivid memories of standing in the Eighth Avenue line stub-terminal at Chambers Street (now WTC) when my father and I were going to "Radio Row" to explore the electronics shops that once existed there. This would have been in the early sixties. That day he bought me my very first short-wave radio, a Hallicrafters S40A, which I still have, and which helped cement my other life-long love affair (and eventually my career): radio. I think the reason that this station stands out in my memory is because it was the first time I had ever seen the end of track on a subway line.
Don't feel so bad. I, who am always on SubTalk and knows an awful lot about the system, made the same mistake last summer taking my son Arthur to the museum!!! For some reason I had a senior moment and completely forgot about the "A" and when I saw an "A" I took it thinking it was the shortened version of the old "AA" local!!!
Then again, I shouldn't mention senior moments on this board, I might be accused of ageism!!
My first long trip to Brooklyn (for a wake) involved getting to Delancy St on the IND and transferring to the BMT (Broadway) Line. This is where it gets fuzzy. I believe that we got onto the Lexington Ave Line and headed south to where a few of our relatives lived just west of Lexington Ave. However, we went directly to the Funeral Parlor and from there to other relative's homes. I was probably to tired to remember trip home. The most exciting part of the trip was coming out of the tunnel out onto the (Williamsburg) bridge and out the (Broadway) El line. Up until that time, I did not realize that subway trains came out on to el structures. As far as I knew at that time the El was always above and the subway was always below.
As we lived a block from Webster and the TARS line, we took many trips south to Fordham Road and some out Fordham Road to the Zoo. We also took trips to Tibbets Brook Park via the Trolley North to 233rd St and then transferred to the Yonkers Line to get us to the Park. One interesting evening trip we went south to Fordham. However, this time we transferred to the 180th St Line. Now, this is where its gets fuzzy as to where we went. It was a place full of lights and rides.
Where did we go, Starlight Park, or the feast at Arthur Ave? Maybe both? Of course I was too tired to remember the trip home.
My first trip to Newark from Penn Station was a wonder to behold. It was quite a sight to see a GG1 Glide past you and bring the train to a stop. Then, there was the speedy trip through the tunnel, and out into the daylight and across the Meadows and south to the junction under the Skyway and the big power plant and on to Newark. Then you glide into Newark Union station, with its maze of drawbridges at its entry. I think my uncle picked us up then. So, I would be a lot older by the time I would explore downtown Newark and the subway there and get to ride a PRR MU on a field trip with Roger Arcara to explore the H&M line.
My first trip out to Long Island was a winter trip that featured a lot of snow. I believe a snowplow was on the front of the train because I remember seeing the snow being thrown aside from the front of the train. I must have been very young on that trip, because I can not remember much about that trip except for all the snow.
I have saved my early travels on the 3rd Ave El for last. A couple of our neighbors were motormen on the subway and the El. My closest friend's father was a motorman on the 3rd Ave El. He would pick up his Bronx Park Local at the Bronx Park Terminal Station. If the weather was good, we, my father, my friend and his father the motorman and I would walk down Webster Ave past 200th St to a store front entrance just north of the Refrigerated warehouse at the Fordham Freight yard. We would enter there, then go upstairs and walk over a footbridge to the Bronx Park Terminal. Then we would get on the (MUDC) train and ride down to Fordham and then cross under the tracks back to the uptown side and return to 204th St.
Those are some of my earliest train travel memories.
As for intercity rail, I was taken to visit various gaggles of maternal relatives in Wisconsin by age 2, but which gaggle would have been first I couldn't say. Possibilities would be C&NW, Chicago-Shawano; Milwaukee Road, Chicago-Madison-Mazomanie; or Milwaukee Road, Chicago-New Lisbon-Wisconsin Rapids. I have early memories of all of these, including a train change at New Lisbon, but none are specifically datable.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
Mark
Mark
In reality, the trip takes 6 minutes in each direction.
When I was about 8 or 9, we took a trip on Amtrak to Washington DC. Dad had loosened the grip considerably by that time, and I even took the Metro by myself down to the Library of Congress (geeeeeeek!!!!).
CG
I do miss those cars.
Hopefully my first Amtrak(railsale or ebay) ride will be within the next 60-90 days, after I take care of some capital expenses on other things. I can't wait.
Regards,
Jimmy
1997 was also the first time I ever rode a trolley and that was at Branford on 1602, I think.
Regards,
Jimmy
First subway ride was in 1984 from Penn Station to Wall Street on the 2/3, and return via the 4/5 from Wall St. to Atlantic Ave. I want to say that I was on a redbird at least one of those two trips.....I very very very vaguely remember the details of the car.
I was 3 and 4 years old respectively for those two trips. First was a trip to some event at Madison Square Garden IIRC. My first subway trip (which involved a train trip as well) was with dad to work on the corner of Wall and Broadway.
The next day I rode on the subway for the first time, on an N of shiny new R-32s, and the rest is history.
Mark
We were seated at a table for four, and while dining the waiter asked if we minded a woman sitting with us. It was years later that I realized why he had asked--she was black. Again, this was in 1959 and well north of the Mason-Dixon line. A reminder of how things were on this Martin Luther King Day.
Chuck Greene
To me, it's kind of funny here on Subtalk to read about everyone's impressions about the JFK AirTrain and its features that many here have never encountered before. I experienced those features from railfanning day one and I believe my attitude toward wanting rail transit to be always innovative and cutting-edge comes from the high-tech features of the people mover. I vividly remember my first ride ever on MARTA, probably when I was around 4 or 5, my dad and I were walking down the stairs to the platform at Lindbergh Center and I asked him, "Where are the [platform edge] doors? We might fall in!"
It wasn't until our next trip to Washington six months later that we first discovered Bredas.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Too young to remember…but it definitely was the NYC subway, because when we were living in Queens (Kew Gardens Hills), my mother used to take the bus from that area to the subway. The buses I won’t soon forget; the fishbowls had come out and they were the quiet ones, but the older GMC buses (the ones that had the PCC look) were noisy and I was quite sensitive to sounds back then and didn’t like them.
I must have mis-heard my father speaking (perhaps he had a cold), because I at first thought that the subway was called the “sunway”…
This was between 1970 and 1972.
Moved to Ireland in 1974; they had the black-and-orange push-pull diesel trains (converted from former DMUs) and those trains running backwards confused me for a while :-P
All N/B service was running via express between the diamond crossover just south of Prince to 34th.
Yellow police tape lined a empty R-68A signed for "W" service on the local track at 14th Street, with many police and detectives in car 6.
There was another R-68A on the N/B local track at Prince as well.
The gunfire broke out after three men in their 20s boarded an uptown "W" train at Eighth Street at about 4 a.m., police said. The three began to fight, and one pulled out a gun and opened fire, wounding one of his companions.
The wounded man, whose name was not released, was rushed to Bellevue Hospital, police said. The two others were arrested on the platform of the 14th Street-Union Square station; two guns were also recovered. No charges had been filed against them as of early Monday, said Sgt. Michael Wysokowski, an NYPD spokesman.
It was unclear what the men had been fighting about, he said.
Almost certainly, something very trivial.
BANG! BANG!
The thug mentality in action. Word.
1) After arriving at Heathrow, I'm going through the "Nothing to declare" customs line. An inspector politely asks me how long I'll be staying and the purpose of my trip. I tell him that I'm a rail fan and plan to explore the Underground and other train lines. Big mistake. He suddenly looks a lot less friendly and asks me a barrage of questions, including my occupation, my yearly income, whether I have a return plane ticket, where I'll be staying, whether my room is prepaid, how much cash I have, what credit cards I have, and how much free credit line do I have on my cards. Apparently, anyone who expresses an interest in railfanning is flagged as a potential skell (or "rough sleeper," to use the British term) who's likely to end up on the public dole!
2) One evening, I decided to take the Picadilly line to the Cockfosters terminal (I was staying about five stops down the line near Manor House). While on the train, I decided to stop partway, at the Wood Green station, to get a Diet Coke. I had a day travelcard so the stop wouldn't cost anything. Just as I'm walking out of the station, a man stadning near the exit says to me "Better watch yourself in this area, buddy."
What??? I cannot imagine why he cautioned me. Wood Green is a busy station in a busy area - there's a multiplex cinema right next to the station and a couple of shopping centers nearby - so it's not as if he could have told I was a stranger to the area. I hardly look like some wimp who'd be an easy mark for criminals, and there was nothing in my appearance that made it obvious I was a foreigner. Finally, the area didn't look dangerous or anything.
After I got my Diet Coke, I looked for the man who'd warned me, as I meant to ask him why he said what he did, but I couldn't find him.
Is the Staten Island Railway under FRA jurisdiction or is that not the case anymore?
Since a tunnel to Staten Island would be very long, other options are usually discussed.
The Verazzano-Narrows bridge is usually suggested as a way to connect Staten Island via Brooklyn, but dismissed for engineering reasons...I think the approaches to the bridge would have to be too long in order to achieve a grade that the train could handle.
I'll usually pipe in at some point with the suggestion of connecting Staten Island to Jersey, because it's a shorter crossing, maybe making the SIRT meet the Hudson-Bergen light rail somewhere.
And I think SIRT is unver FRA jursidiciton, but I'm not the most knowledgeable person here.
Mark
I dunno, I was just thinking of this since the second ave line will have its stub end near the ferry terminal and would be a neat idea if nothing else to have the subway in Staten Island.
Michalovic writes:
I see you're relatively new here, so welcome to Subtalk, belatedly. This topic is a rucurring one around here, so I'll just run down for you the things that usually come up when this idea is discussed:
Since a tunnel to Staten Island would be very long, other options are usually discussed.
The Verazzano-Narrows bridge is usually suggested as a way to connect Staten Island via Brooklyn, but dismissed for engineering reasons...I think the approaches to the bridge would have to be too long in order to achieve a grade that the train could handle.
I'll usually pipe in at some point with the suggestion of connecting Staten Island to Jersey, because it's a shorter crossing, maybe making the SIRT meet the Hudson-Bergen light rail somewhere.
And I think SIRT is unver FRA jursidiciton, but I'm not the most knowledgeable person here.
Mark
By the way, given the situation with the Verazzano-Narrows bridge, how hard would it be to tunnel under the Narrows? You'd think I'd have read the answer in one of the previous threads on this topic, but I don't remember it.
Mark
Honestly though, what's the problem with the ferry? The only one I know of is getting there from the North Shore quickly, which reinstating service on the North Shore line can fix quick.
Problem with ferry: too slow! LIRR discovered that about 100 years ago when they ran trains through the tunnels instead of going to Manhattan via ferry from Long Island city.
Although I would agree, it would be sad to see the ferry go....its such a big part of NY history....
I was actually on the ferry over winter break. I had friends in who had never been to NY before, and they had a long list of things to do, and not a lot of money to spare. So we decided to take the cheap "fly by" tour of the statue of liberty and Ellis Island by riding the staten Island ferry from Whitehall to St. George and back. Worked out nicely. Only problem was on the staten island side where they forced everyone off the boat (i'm assuming since they need to get an accurate count of the passangers upon boarding)....it was amusing to see the entire crowd of people walk out the exit passageway, hang a u-turn to the left, and walk right back onto the boat. Seriously, at least 3/4 of the people on the boat just got back on to go back to Manhattan! I'd hate to see this "free NY Harbor tour" go bye bye!
Also, From my experience, NY Waterway is faster from Manhattan to NJ than PATH, but there may have been something wrong wit PATH that day.
If the SAS gets extended beyond Manhattan, it would most likely be as part of a JFK extension to Brooklyn and Queens. It's either that, or it ends at Hanover Sq.
>>Since we're dicussing (the use and feasibility of) a tunnel from Hanover Sq. to SI, why not route it via Liberty Island?<<
Liberty Island is closer to NJ than it is to S.I., so it wouldn't be a logical stop.
Governors Island, however, would be.
However it would be "Cool" if the Second Ave line went along Second Ave in Brooklyn AND Manhattan.
H - Previously used for Rockaways
I - Looks too much like a 1
K - Previously used for Rockaway
O - Looks like a zero
P - The "Pee" train?
T - Reserved for Second Ave Subway
U - Underwater? Hmm...
X - Previously used for WTC
Y - Unused
Wasn't the K train first a 6th Av - Bway (Brooklyn) Local and then what used to be the AA train?
O - Looks like a zero
There is no zero line to confuse it with.
P - The "Pee" train?
Only SubTalkers with a certain sense of - errrmmm - humour make jokes about taking a PP against the wall. It is not a valid reason not to use the letter.
X - Previously used for WTC
When?
Y - Unused
Was proposed as skip-stop variant of the L train.
BTW: we'll already have a T-train (catch my drift ;-) ) in the future, so why not a P-train?
There has also been a C-train for a very long time, which goes everywhere but the sea ;-)
I wasn't aware of that? When was that letter used, if I may ask?
Philadelphia Trolleys: The John Gibb Smith, Jr. Collection
The collection spans all the way back to the days of horse-drawn rail cars.
Mark
Speaking of West Philly and historic trolleys, has anyone else seen the big mural at 45th and Baltimore next to the Sunoco gas station? It was painted by Karl Yoder and features a trolley in Center City and a view from inside a trolley crossing the Schuylkill river around Girard Avenue.
Mark
Now that the loading on both sides of the bridge will be even in terms of number of trains per day, the force on the bridge will be equal (there's a good question, do all trains weigh the same?), so that it isn't being twisted by uneven loading. Also the bridge will actually be maintained, given that New York has finally realized that you can't just put up a bridge and expect it to stand for all time, it must be maintained, just like a subway car.
There are bridges in Britain well over 100 years old, made of steel or even iron with much higher impurity contents than the 1920's steel in the Manny B. There is no reason that with regular basic maitenance the Manhattan Bridge that it could last literally forever.
It was not constructed in the 1920s.
The Manhattan Bridge is not an MTA bridge.
edk(2 to the eigth power)
http://mackoy.cool.ne.jp/
4 Trains R-40S
18 Trains R-68/R-68A
Remember that the breakdowns are the plan. Yard dispatchers have the option to swap equipment where necessary.
By the way, you mentioned in one of your previous posts that CIY was slated to receive 14 R32s. Do you mean 14 R32 10-car trainsets or 14 R32 cars (enough to make a 10-car train with some extras leftover)? Which line would see the occasional R32 and why are R32s being sent back to CIY?
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Speaking of Carolina though. About 40 miles north of the Panther's stadium is the Spencer Shops. An old interchange yard with a great collection of trains, a working turntable and a nice trainride through the yard. I'm looking to organize a trip to Spencer Shops and some other railfan spots along the way for mid to late May. I'm looking for those who want to do the trip by motorcycle with 3 or 4 other riders or riding couples. If anyone (who really knows how to ride) might be interested, contact me by e-mail. Please - no novice riders.
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
Well, we know for sure who ISN'T from North Carolina :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I thought of those mall stores too...the ones owned by Universal Studios.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Here's their website.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"I think I can, I think I can, I hope I can, (cough), I hope I can, (gasp), I ain't gonna make it.....AAARRRRGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!"
Poor Dude ... he got the ride DOWN where about all it was doing was making sure the cab was warm. Heh.
DURR is a NICE bunch of folks.
--Mark
I always like snow photography!
You were standing right in front of the building where my grandmother lives. You can get a somewhat decent view of the trains from her window, but not the station area.....
Q Line 17 trains all R-68A
W Line 9 trains 1=R-32, 8=R40S
______________________________________________________________________
Here are the changes from the present
B = +14 trains
D = +16 trains
M = -1 train
N = +2 trains
Q = -14 trains
R = +4 trains
W = -12 trains
S Grand St. = -1 train
Total = +8 trains
Can you give us the R units for the Bravo and Nancy?
Thanks!
http://www.soton.ac.uk/~scp93ch/morse/alphabet.html
I could just imagine the nightmare scenario if there was confusion between Charlie, Mikey, Nancy, Quincy, and Whiskey. This is compared to Charlie, Mike, November and Quebec (pronounced Keh-beck, quite different from K's Kilo) and Whiskey for the standard NATO international phonetic alphabets. Admittedly there's commonality between Charlie and Whiskey, but at least that's better than having 5 very similar letters.
Now does NYCTA call the 5 'Fife' and the 9 train 'Niner'?
And interestingly, neither uses the Able Baker alphabet (used by American and British forces in WWII), making those letters Charlie, Mike, Nan, Queen, and William.
And has anyone come across this one:
Amsterdam, Baltimore, Casablanca, Denmark, Edison, Florida, Gallipoli, Havana, Italy, Jerusalem, Kilogram, Liverpool, Madagascar, New-York, Oslo, Paris, Quebec, Roma, Santiago, Tripoli, Uppsala, Valencia, Washington, Xantippe, Yokohama, Zürich
This one:
Ancona, Bologna, Como, Domodossola, Empoli, Firenze, Genova, Hotel, Imola, Jolly, Kursaal, Livorno, Milano, Napoli, Otranto, Padova, Quartomiglio, Roma, Savona, Torino, Udine, Venezia, Washington, Xeres, Yugoslavia, Zara
Or this one:
Anatole, Berthe, Célestin, Désiré, Eugène, (Émile), François, Gaston, Henri, Irma, Joseph, Kléber, Louis, Marcel, Nicolas, Oscar, Pierre, Quintal, René, Suzanne, Thérèse, Ursule, Victor, William, Xavier, Yvonne, Zoé
Perhaps the Military changed since I was in in the 60s.
Elias
wayne
Nancy of course is out of Coney, and what about the W? Can that be a mixed bag? Jamaica provides a 32 or two, and Coney the shovelnoses?
A - 207th/Pitkin
B - Coney island
C - 207th/Pitkin
D - Concourse
E - Jamaica
F - Jamaica
G - Jamaica
J - East NY
L - East NY
M - East NY
N - Coney Island
Q - Coney Island
R - Jamaica
V - Jamaica
W - Coney island
Will Concourse be used for B layups as it was in the years before 2001?
3 sets come from CIY, in service from 86 St;
4 sets come from City Hall;
2 sets come from Lex/63rd St;
1 set arrives as an N
Also, since ENY will have 390 R42 & 212 R143 cars which equals 602 cars, why is ENY having extra cars.
More info and photos can be seen here.
Yes, the EMERGENCY EXIT signs are visible.
Are there any at this station?
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And the winner of this week's shit list appears to be the good old Lake Shore Limited with back to back delays of 12 and then 7 hours.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df01192004.shtml#Weather
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Let's just see how many pigs can crowd around the money trough to the exclusion of rail transit.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df01192004.shtml#TEA
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Heh, funny story. I voulenteer at a free book place and this woman was planning an Amtrak trip and she asked me "the train still goes to Louisville...right?" and I was forced to inform her that the Kentucky Cardinal was cut back to Indianapolis some months ago. Maybe the Gunner can drum up support to get some upgrades to the line and get the train running to the now empty train station in Louisville.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df01192004.shtml#Gunn
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Bush III vs transit...who will win?!?!? Well, alright...how badly will transit loose.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df01192004.shtml#Florida
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Looks like the rational route b/t Miami and Jacksonville is not going to get any rail service any time soon. That's a nice line...straight, cab signals...etc.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df01192004.shtml#No
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Hmmm, do you people think that these rail-airline alliances are actually beneficial or just hurt Amtrak in the long run.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df01192004.shtml#Midwest
Mark
Help definitely!!!! It provides a good intermodal transportation system. No reasonable person who wants to go from NY to LA on a quick vacation would spend half a week getting there and back by train...the train is more of a novelty thing then an actual transportation mode over such long distances for most people (railfans excluded). The plane makes much more sense. The train is better for short distance route...if and only if service is convenient and speedy (like on the NE corridor line). Getting more of these short distance trips off the air network leaves more airspace slots for longer distance flights. Anyone taking a trip that involves a long and a short segment will fly the long segment, but they will probably also fly the short segment too since they are already at the airport and most people don't know about connections via train since there is no through ticketing or anything like that. But taking the train might be viable in some, but certainly not all circumstances. But we might as well make it easy for people who do find it viable. Other countries do it....no reason our country's transportation has to remain so segmented with little intermodal connectivity.
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Uhoh, looks like the MTA might and other agencies might be deprived of a little onhand cash. Still, why should private firms get tax revenue from depriciation created by public capital expendatures. BTW, could some please give an illustrative example of how these depriciation tax scheemes work??
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df01192004.shtml#Bush
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While it makes sense, Federal Railroad and Pipeline Administration just lacks a certain ring.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df01192004.shtml#FRA
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Let's just hope the Governator dosen't take High Speed rail to mean everything other than freight.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df01192004.shtml#High-speed
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Sheesh, only over 37 million dollars? I think some some people just plain don't like transit.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df01192004.shtml#Dissent
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I think that all forms of public transportation need to be held to strict hours of service laws. This includes buses, trucks, subways, light rail lines, taxi cabs, etc. And the laws need to have real teeth to prevent abuse.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df01192004.shtml#Chicago
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Commuter rail lines are always popular in the planning states, but when the check comes everyone bails.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df01192004.shtml#Utah
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Oh no!! Some woman was slightly scalded by hot coffee on the crappy track. In this country there'd be a huge lawsuit. In Canada they take the money and make things better for everyone.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df01192004.shtml#Londoners
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It looks like the Rail world's version of WalMart is sending its propaganda machine to the super bowel in the great nation of Texas. I will have absolutely no problem ignoring this move.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df01192004.shtml#Steam
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Hey, I have been advocating this sort of innovation by freight railroads for years now. If you have enough demand for a unit anything train, go for it!
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df01192004.shtml#Look
Where the hell in NYC are they gonna load/unload the cars?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The first logical place would be new car auto racks terminals.
I just hope BNSF has done there home work. When Autotrain Corporation first started up, they quickly learned that they could not use new cars autoracks to transport used cars. Used cars did not survive the less then smooth ride very well on new car auto racks. BNSF will have to use some variant of the Amtrak Autotrain autorack and be delicate in the handling of the auto racks.
John
It is my understanding that Autotrain Corporation did some test runs with conventional auto racks with used car loaded and discovered that the ride of the suspension on the conventional auto racks tended to shake used car in such a way that when driven the cars were not as solid as they were before the trip. Their were rattles and other evidence that the cars did not have as quite a ride as they did before the trip aboard auto rack.
The bilevel auto racks that Amtraks Autotrain uses are a complete different animal then auto racks use to deliver new car from the factory to the car dealer.
John
Either:
A) a bird with earmuff's and sleet in the background
B) an old person driving a car that's stopped sideways across 3 lanes and a green traffic light
Either one is suiting.
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Aw man, the Eurostar flop was what let our country and its rail system feel better about itself. Stupid service improvement.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df01192004.shtml#Passengers
"The aim of my foreign policy has been to go down to Victoria Train Station, get a railway ticket and go where the hell I liked without a passport or anything else."
- Ernest Bevin, 1946.
Sadly, 9/11 happened, and security delays are going to get worse, not go away.
Well it's just stupid searching people before they get onto a train. They're not gonna hijack it, because train cab doors have locks on them. If aircraft builders haven't put proper locks on their aeroplane cab doors, then it's their fault, not the general public's.
It also makes a complete mockery of British law to have customs officers allowed to search people that they have no reasonable evidence to suspect. The police's powers were limited in this respect - and for good reason - do I need to mention the "sus" laws?
Let's be realistic. The worst that's likely to happen on a train is that some farebeating scum clobbers the guard, BTP are called, he gets hauled up before a beak and is given 6 months with time off for good behaviour.
Here's an idea - repeal the following acts of parliament:
- Immigration and Asylum Act, 1999
- Asylum and Immigration Act, 1996
- Asylum and Immigration Appeals Act, 1993
- Immigration Act, 1988 (except those provisions to allow free movement in the EU)
- British Nationality Act, 1981
- Immigration Act, 1971
- Commonwealth Immigrants Act, 1968
- Commonwealth Immigrants Act, 1962
When I travelled on international trains in Europe in the 1970s, passport control on the train, which was never more than a quick glance, was to my mind the right way to do it.
All the palaver at Waterloo when I took Eurostar in the 1980s I thought was very off-putting.
If we go and repeal all the immigration acts back to 1962, where does that leave us? Do we get the Empire back?
They're being an organ of a police state.
When I travelled on international trains in Europe in the 1970s, passport control on the train, which was never more than a quick glance, was to my mind the right way to do it.
Exactly. It's still that way on any line crossing a border between two countries with any experience of running an international line (I seem to remember the Swiss nipping round on a train I was on from Bologna to Ostend). Unfortunately Britain is not one of them and the marketing people seem to have been put in charge again, resulting in this half-assed system.
If we go and repeal all the immigration acts back to 1962, where does that leave us?
With absolute freedom of movement within Europe and within the Commonwealth. We'd probably have to repeal the Town and Country Planning Acts to deal with all the cheap labour from the Commonwealth seeking their fortune in Britain, but talk about fuelling an economic boom. As Abe Lincoln said, "Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration".
Do we get the Empire back?
If their best people are fleeing their lands in droves for the economic light that is Britain, it would not take much intelligence in a tinpot that it'd be in his interest to join us. On a tedious governmental level, smaller units are better, so a nice devolved Empire would be nice. We could even give the Welsh self-government, but move the Central government functions to Monmouth to aid development and hold it all together better. On topic: whilst we're at it, let's put Monmouth Troy back in the Intercity timetable!
The Welshman’s dishonest and cheats when he can
And little and dark, more like monkey than man
He works underground with a lamp in his hat
And he sings far too loud, far too often, and flat!
The Irishman now our contempt is beneath,
He sleeps in his boots and he lies in his teeth,
He blows up policemen, or so we have heard,
And blames it on Cromwell and William the Third!
But remember that Flanders and Swann were (gentle) satirists, not real racist bigots.
But crossing the Channel one cannot say much,
For the French and the Spanish, the Danish and Dutch,
The Germans are German, the Russians are Red
And the Greeks and Italians eat Garlic in bed!
And all the world over, each nation’s the same
They’ve simply no notion of playing the game
They argue with umpires; they cheer when they’ve won
And practice beforehand which ruins the fun!
Well, Donald Swann *was* half-Russian (or half-Soviet-Central-Asian to be precise - in one of the sketches he talks about his Uncle Mohammed), so it isn't too surprising that he spoke Russian fluently.
They were both erudite, as you say, and wickedly funny. Not bad musicians, either. It's sad that both of them died relatively young.
It was obviously copied down from listening to the song, as some of the station names are mis-spelled. It's Mortehoe (not Mortiehow), Chorlton-cum-Hardy (not -Harley), Dogdyke (not Dog Dyke) and conversely Trouble House Halt (not Troublehouse Halt), and Armley Moor (not Armly). Trouble House Halt was named after a pub, the only building anywhere near the halt, and last time I passed that way the pub was still there.
One or two of the stations - which were all on Dr Beeching's little list - didn't actually close, in the event (Ambergate, for example). Of the majority that did close, I'm not sure if any re-opened - maybe Cheslyn Hay did?
Which makes this little ditty even more surprising:
"And crossing the Channel, one cannot say much
Of French and the Spanish, the Danish or Dutch
The Germans are German, the Russians are red,
And the Greeks and Italians eat garlic in bed!"
Why do you say that? Surely not because it doesn't make a profit!
Well, the fast link between the Chunnel and London was always planned, it's just taken the loss-making Eurotunnel organisation a long time to find the money to build it. Better late than never. And it *is* the first new main line railway built in the UK for over a century (the late lamented Great Central was the previous one), so 2007 will be worth celebrating by railfans.
SubTalk fieldtrip to Lille - meet at London St Pancras?
What about the Thameslink?
There is no new trackage on the Thameslink whatsoever. All of it had passenger services running over it immediately prior to the setting up of Thameslink, except for two very short sections: Farringdon to Blackfriars through the Snow Hill tunnel, which had been used only for freight in the 20th century but carried passenger trains in the 19th; and from the south end of Blackfriars Bridge round to Metropolitan Junction, which is really just a curve, and was previously used for empty stock movements. What the Thameslink development did was to electrify the Snow Hill part with third rail, and purchase some dual-mode trains (third rail DC and OHLE AC): north from Farringdon was already OHLE electrified. The Metropolitan Junction curve was already third-rail electrified.
North of Blackfriars, Southern Region trains used to continue into Holborn Viaduct station, a terminus, by branching to the right off the Snow Hill line. Holborn Viaduct station is now gone - demolished and replaced by a new office building - but the new City Thameslink station, between Blackfriars and Farringdon, replaces it. The terminating South Eastern trains coming on across Blackfriars Bridge now finish in the terminal platforms at Blackfriars station, while Thameslink uses the through platforms.
City Thameslink is at present the only really new thing on Thameslink - it is the prototype for the Thameslink 2000 stations, a modern underground station of 12-car length, with entrances at both ends in proper New York fashion. The new Kings Cross Thameslink station, currently under construction below St Pancras main line station, will be of similar design to City Thameslink. The Thameslink 2000 plan for Blackfriars station extends the platforms right across the river bridge so that the station can have a second entrance south of the Thames, which will serve the Tate Modern art gallery. I wonder if this will be a first - a station with entrances on both sides of a major river?
The only track that is used exclusively by Thameslink trains and by no other operating company is the section between Kentish Town and Blackfriars.
Some SE Trains services start/finish at City TL (Mondays to Fridays):
- 0734 Sevenoaks to City TL
- 0819 Sevenoaks to City TL
- 1704 City TL to Sevenoaks
- 1747 City TL to Beckenham Jct
Monday - Friday between peaks, Saturday until about 1830, Sunday all day: Tattenham Corner - London Charing X
Monday - Saturday evenings, Sunday all day: Caterham - London Charing X
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I guess this means their 4000-5000 active interlocking towers will be around for a while longer.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df01192004.shtml#DB
1. Chinese dulcimer band at Times Square (N/Circle Q/Slant Q/R/W)
2. Peruvian Pan-piper at Lex/59th (N/R/W)
3. Opera Singer at Lex/3rd & 53rd (E/V)
4. Violinist at Grand Central Terminal (MNRR)
5. Funk ensemble at 51st & Lex (6)
Whaddya think, guys?
wayne
wayne
Jamaican Steel Drummer, CURT.
wayne
Mak
Curt used to play Union Square on the 4/5/6 platform... (where I first found him).
as well as Grand Central on the 4/5/6..
It's common for me to stand for 20-25 minutes watching Curt play and
he's receptive and appreciative of the attention.
That OTHER chap was a complete lime.
Bill "Newkirk"
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
I have been deeply touched by several subway musicians. Alice Tan Ridley had an amazing "platform presence" when I ran into her singing right at 42nd Street & 8th Avenue. The Saw Lady and Saw Man have also enchanted me with their presence.
There's a website that has clips from the documentary Street Music.
http://www.streetmusicny.com
Not only that, a subway station should be a place where passengers can GET to a train. Anyone who has tried to access the BMT platforms at Times Square in the PM rush hour when there is a hip-hop dance troupe, two new age mimes, and the idiot dancing with a blowup doll all on the mezzanine at once knows what I mean.
It's not so much the performers, but the large, stationary crowds (of mostly tourists) they draw.
Has there ever been musicians at GCT, PABT, or GWBBT?
Mark
I really wanna see someone who is a good harmonica player.
The 7 comes to mind, although I don't know what actual speeds it attains. Any others?
In "B" division, the only express that currently runs on elevated structure is the "J" between Marcy and Myrtle. Top speed's about 35. The "W" had a brief express run on the Astoria el but they discontinued it.
wayne
The northbound White Plains Road Thru express back in the days of the Hi-V's moved very smartly from 149th St to 180th St. However, it had to slow down for the curve away from the former terminal (stub) at Southern Blvd and traverse segment over to the 180th St station.
On the old Myrtle Ave line, the gap that was left from the Lexington Ave Line Jct at Grand Ave made for a long straight run from Washington to Franklin. I think the Southbound had the downgrade also.
I never had the oportunity to ride the 3rd Ave line Expresses in Manhattan.
That stretch does seem very fast to me, but I think it may be my senses deceiving me. Certainly a lot of sound and motion.
Sorry if this has been asked before.....
-MM
D.
PS cars have actual opening doors! If I knew how to upload pics here I could share!
Very cool, now we just need someone to do a LIRR and MN texture for it.
http://www.digitalalley.net/lirr-front.tga
http://www.digitalalley.net/mnr-front.tga
First, to download them, you MUST become a member of the ACR. Which means first filling out an application. Then they send you a test. Then you must complete a couple activities a month (hey, that's no problem -- but downloading and setting up all the extra shit IS. You gotta have just about every file in the File Library at Train-Sim.com....)
The M-1/3's have a carbody that looks half-baked. The cabview is from NALW (North American Locomotive Works) Metro-North Bombardier push-pull cab cars. The interior view is NOT an M-1 but rather someone else's Bombardier coach interiors. The sound absolutely sucks. Whoever heard of M-1/M-3's with Hancock Air Whistles like the New Haven used to use on their locos and m.u.'s??? I wonder if whoever uploaded these M-1/M-3's to this site has permission from NALW to use their cabview, interiors, etc. as nothing was mentioned anywhere in a readme file.
D.
Parisman
So New Yorkers never travel, right?
How many tourists and/or "affluent New Yorkers" were mugged after taking a shuttle bus to the A train? Why should AirTrain, which eliminates that long, desolate corridor from the old headhouse at the bus loop to the A platform, be more dangerous?
Subway riders also need to have common sense; i.e., don't wear your Rolex.
Peace,
ANDEE
I also stopped at a couple of other trolley museums on this trip, but they don't directly involve NYC - if anyone is interested I can post accounts of those visits too.
Frank Hicks
Frank Hicks
I'm certainly interested, but I'm not sure if the rest of the board would want to read anything not related to politics or football.
ZINGGGG! LOL
Peace,
ANDEE
The two other places I stopped besides the CK&S were the Northern Ohio Railway Museum in Chippewa Lake and the Ohio Railway Museum in Worthington. NORM has been around for probably 40 years, but it's only within the past five years or so that they've built any barns. Between the 1960's and the 1990's, the entire collection just sat outside. The bodies of several interurbans and assorted cars are strung out along a railroad ROW, with the main museum campus (and their two carbarns, one of them so new it hasn't been occupied yet) about a quarter mile away. The cars along the railroad include a Chicago 4000-series car which is absolute junk; NOT&L interurban car 1515, which is a body but is more-or-less intact; NOT&L 1511, which has a collapsed bolster and a badly twisted body because of it; NOT&L 1519, which is on trucks but had its floor collapse dumping the contents of the car onto the tracks; Pittsburgh snow sweeper M30, which was torched by vandals a few years ago so that only the charred hulk remains; a Lake Shore Electric interurban freight trailer body in reasonably good condition; two Cincinnati & Lake Erie interurban bodies in reasonably good condition; and several pieces of Cleveland work equipment. The museum campus is the bright spot - a lot of track has been built recently, and of course there are the two barns. NORM has a line of Shaker Heights PCC's in poor condition, but several are up for sale. There's also a Broad Street Subway car in decrepit shape, some Cleveland rapid transit cars, another CTA 4000-series car, and a few other things. They've got a Pittsburgh PCC, #1644, which appears to be in very good shape. Lake Shore Electric #42, an attractive interurban freight motor body that's in relatively good condition, sits outside the barn on cribbing next to LSE #181, a steel interurban that is in bad condition (comparable to, though probably somewhat worse than, #171 at Seashore). LSE #151, the Toronto Peter Witt, and the Cleveland center-entrance cars have evidently been moved into the barn. NORM is apparently working on getting a Cleveland derrick car, #0711, operational so that they will have something that runs. Between this, their barn building, their track construction and deaccessing of duplicates in their collection, they're definitely on the right track.
The other place I stopped was the Ohio Railway Museum, which was quite a place back in the 1960's but virtually collapsed in the late 1970's after the membership split and dissolved. Now most of the collection sits and rots outside, although at least most of the cars are tarped. The thing that surprised me was that their carbarn is gone - it was apparently taken down. This is probably a good thing, since it looked like it was about to collapse anyway. Other than that, it wasn't obvious that much was happening except for some cars having been shuffled around. They've got an Illinois Terminal PCC that they use, but I think that's the only thing that runs.
If you've got any questions, feel free to ask - I might be able to answer them.
Frank Hicks
-I see on the PNAERC roster that one of the CTA 4000s is "to be scrapped."
-Of all the things to make operational, a crane? I would think they would want to carry passengers to bring in some money.
-Is their Pittsburgh PCC a recent acquisition?
I didn't quite "get it" either until I saw how absolutely critical venerable old W-3 is at Branford ...
Agreed, but Frank said a lot of track had already been recently constructed, and a trolley crane isn't very good for stringing wire if it isn't there already :).
Yes; that's the work motor that's sitting by the museum site. The electrical equipment from this car is slated to be installed in LSE #42, the box motor. The junk 4000 that's out by the railroad is a trailer and doesn't have motors that can be used in other cars, so it's for sale.
Of all the things to make operational, a crane? I would think they would want to carry passengers to bring in some money.
There are two reasons that NORM is working on 0711. First, it's in better condition than most of their other cars - probably marginally better than the other work equipment, and in much better condition than any of the streetcars. Second, while the crane itself is not particularly useful, the deck is. Without overhead wire, the only way to operate anything is to bring along a portable 600v generator - and a crane lends itself to having a generator placed on the deck so that you don't have to tow it on a speeder flat. That's the plan, to get 0711 running via a generator mounted on its deck and use the thing for switching or whatever. I think after that they want to start working on one of their Cleveland center-entrance cars, which have serious rust and rot problems, or their Toronto Peter Witt, which was damaged in the arson attack.
Is their Pittsburgh PCC a recent acquisition?
No, I don't believe so; it's been there since at least 1995 or so, and probably for a few years before that. I wish I knew exactly when they got it.
Frank Hicks
But if it's a choice between CPW and MARS, I'll tend to go with MARS. :)
Lots of other people are interested in Mars.
But it *is* on-topic. Can't argue that. :o)
But if that puppy can skedaddle, AND it can stop, Me wannit! Heh.
And they make you take HEARING tests in the TA now. For what?
All I know is when the gears got up to Ab above middle C, you were moving. And I mean moving. Funny - I only heard that pitch on the BMT standards. On the R-1/9s, the highest pitch I ever heard was F#, maybe G above middle C. That's still pretty fast.
Now Wayne says R-6 1233 led an F train that hit A-440 around Sutphin Blvd. in Queens once.
There's this liitle pesky thing in the Constitution that requires a Presidental candidate (and the Veep, too) to be a native born citizen of the United States.
Since Arrrnold was born in Austria, that kinda bars him without an amendment, which is as likely as the reappearence of Gibbs Cars on the Lex local.
This is FOR REAL!
What about Bonzo?:)
I think it's as likely as an appearance of M-1's on the Lexington Local!!!*
*But then again, I just saw Hillary applaud Bush during the State of the Union so anything can happen!! Did anyone else see Charlie Rangell sleeping during the speech?
I think that’s showing a little interest!
Most early MU's only had a single power truck. The MP-54's did, the Blueliners did and I think the Lack cars did as well.
Frank Hicks
Frank Hicks
When the original seventy Bethlehem built cars were delivered in 1931, twenty steam coaches from 1925 were converted into trailers to be run with the MU's. The MU's were numbered 800-869 and the trailers, which were converted by the RDG IIRC, were numbered 780-799. The first 19, 780-798 were full coaches, and the 799 was a combine. It was equipped with a pantograph so that there was heat in when it was not in a train. The combine was either for mail or baggage, but I can't recall which. By the time I became acquainted with 799, it had wooden benches in the combine area. The rule for trailers was two motor to one trailer ratio. The set up was supposed to be M-T-M; however, in later years I road trains that had a trailer as the head car out. The 9-car West Trenton out of Reading Terminal at 5:13 PM usually carried two trailers. The 8-car Doylestown out of Reading Terminal at 5:09 PM usually would have two trailers also. However, train #443, the 6:17 PM from Reading Terminal to Lansdale almost always had a trailer in the consist along with two motors. The trailers were called “sinkers” by the crews. On a short train such as the Lansdale Local, they could put the train behind schedule as much as five to six minute. The crews could officially use the trailer as a reason for arriving late at the terminal.
There were eight baggage combines numbered 300-307 and four Postal combines numbered 360-363. I think these were in the first group.
The second group of cars came in 1933, IIRC. These were full MU coaches numbered 870-888. Again, I am going from memory. There were no more trailer conversions until 1949.
The second set of trailers was converted to run with the eight full coach MU's built by ACF in 1949. These MU's were semi-permanently coupled to the trailer. The MU's were numbered 889-896. The trailers were numbered 772-779. Thus, 889 was paired with 772, and so on. These MU's, unlike the first 800's had controls only on the 'F' or pantograph end of the unit. The trailer had controls only at one end also. Ah, the thrifty Pennsylvania Dutch who managed the Reading. As the RDG had an unofficial policy of keeping all MU units with the 'F' or number one end headed towards Reading Terminal, the ACF cars always dragged its "bride" southbound and pushed it northbound. The ACF MU's had 600 HP if I recall. The regular MU's were 300 HP.
Somebody who has better knowledge my dispute the facts above.
If you are really interested in the RDG electrification and MU operation look into getting a book by Wes Coates "Electric Trains to Reading Terminal", now out of print.
Jim Kramer
formally of North Wales, PA
There were eight baggage combines numbered 300-307 and four Postal combines numbered 360-363. I think these were in the first group.
The second group of cars came in 1933, IIRC. These were full MU coaches numbered 870-888. Again, I am going from memory. There were no more trailer conversions until 1949.
The second set of trailers was converted to run with the eight full coach MU's built by ACF in 1949. These MU's were semi-permanently coupled to the trailer. The MU's were numbered 889-896. The trailers were numbered 772-779. Thus, 889 was paired with 772, and so on. These MU's, unlike the first 800's had controls only on the 'F' or pantograph end of the unit. The trailer had controls only at one end also. Ah, the thrifty Pennsylvania Dutch who managed the Reading. As the RDG had an unofficial policy of keeping all MU units with the 'F' or number one end headed towards Reading Terminal, the ACF cars always dragged its "bride" southbound and pushed it northbound. The ACF MU's had 600 HP if I recall. The regular MU's were 300 HP.
Somebody who has better knowledge my dispute the facts above.
If you are really interested in the RDG electrification and MU operation look into getting a book by Wes Coates "Electric Trains to Reading Terminal", now out of print.
Jim Kramer
formally of North Wales, PA
#3 West End Jeff
http://cksrailroad.homestead.com/files/greenpullman.jpg
A photo of PC #1292, on the Toledo & Lake Erie in Grand Rapids, Ohio is here:
http://www.davesrailpix.com/hicks/htm/hicks005.htm
And here are a couple of photos of PC #1276, also on the T&LE:
http://www.davesrailpix.com/hicks/htm/hicks004.htm
http://www.tlew.org/img/Willy_Knight_7_20_2001/Willy-007.jpg
Frank Hicks
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Also, I noticed several little branches going off the line. Did they ever have any passenger service? Trolley routes or anything?
Another thing I saw on mapquest were tracks in Caguas. Small section, with 2 loops at one end, and then they just end at the other. Is this the Caguas trolley?
And my last question, I noticed another short section of track running between Santa Barbara and I think San Isidro with a some spurs. Is this a trolley of some sort. Did it ever extend any further?
Also, I noticed several little branches going off the line. Did they ever have any passenger service? Trolley routes or anything?
Another thing I saw on mapquest were tracks in Caguas. Small section, with 2 loops at one end, and then they just end at the other. Is this the Caguas trolley?
And my last question, I noticed another short section of track running between Santa Barbara and I think San Isidro with a some spurs. Is this a trolley of some sort. Did it ever extend any further?
Any info aprreciated
The second one might actually be the Caguas Trolley(never knew Caguas had a trolley).
That next one, you got me there.
Regards,
Jimmy
Thanks for the station list. Do you know if any towns ever had more than one station?
Regards,
Jimmy
Jimmy
eg. Electric loco push/pulling unpowered coaches except of diesels.
BUT...there are drawbacks.
Money!!
Possible line relocation in some areas.
Where's the electricity gonna come from, we have enough trouble keeping the lights onout here!! :=-)
Your statement that. "Electrification really does not provide for more service" shows your utter lack of understanding for railway operations. Any engineer could tell you that, properly done, electrification provides for better service than diesel could ever provide. The acceleration is better, the efficiency is better, the level of service is better, and the service frequency is better. First off the PJ line does not run 20 minutes headway at peak, if you'd checked a Port Jeff schedule you'd see that, according to LIRR's definition of peak, that is, "on trains scheduled to arrive in NYC terminals between 6 and 10 a.m. or depart NYC between 4 and 8." Then AM average headway between trains 2005 leaving PJ at 4:19 and 615 leaving PJ at 7:35 is 28 minutes (196 total minutes with 7 trains). Of course in PM headway it's a bit worse, between train 658 arriving at PJ at 18:05 and train 670 arriving at 21:18 it's a 32 minutes 10 minutes average headway (193 minutes, 6 trains). Of course you weren't refering to the electrified portion of the PJ Branch to Huntington, which does run good headways, but of course that'd completely undermine your argument.
With electrification everyone benefits, EMU trains can be run off peak more frequently with more efficiency and better acceleration than a diesel hauled coach would allow, and with more comfort than a DMU might provide. At the same time, push pull sets can run long rush hour express trains which do not need the superior acceleration of an EMU set, and yet with an ALP46 on the head end it's likely that it could still beat a DMU set, and definitely beat a Diesel set off the mark.
So yes, Metrolink would do well to electrify, whether it will or not is another matter, all a matter of money. Of course I have basically a 3rd hand report that the electric supplier for southern california, Pacific Gas and Electric I belive, approached Metrolink about electrifying their system. PG&E would have supplied the wires, and charged Metrolink only for power at the pantograph, thereby eliminating all the wasted passenger revenue going to paying for power lost to transmission. All Metrolink had to do was supply the overhead air rights for the transmission lines, presumably the freight railroads were in on the deal too. However, the beaurocrat who examined this project, like you, did not make the leap of imagination necessary to realize the benefit electrification would have on their service, only comparing 10 car push-pull sets with electric locomotives running at rush hour rather than EMUs running all day. Thus his conclusion was that the deal was not going to work to Metrolink's advantage and that their current scheme of F59PHs and -PHIs with Bomba coaches would be better.
Yes, acceleration is better, efficiency, idk bout that, and the level of service, not really. Frequency, of course, but there is a limit to how frequent a COMMUTER rail line can be run feasibly.
"First off the PJ line does not run 20 minutes headway at peak,"
The following is a list of departures from PJ during the peak hours:
4:19
4:55
5:44
5:59
6:18
6:45
6:57
7:35
Average time, yes, 28 min between trains. However, look at the time between some trains. 5:44 to 5:59, only 15 min. That's even better than the electrified PW line. 5:59 to 6:18, only 19 minutes. 6:45 to 6:57, only 12 minutes! So, now tell me that electrification allows for more frequent train service on a COMMUTER rail line. Subways, yes, electrification is good, but otherwise, not worth it.
EMU trains can be run off peak more frequently with more efficiency and better acceleration than a diesel hauled coach would allow"
You've already made these statements. Yes, they can run more frequently, which is why I'm for electrification of rapid transit(Example being NYC Subway).
"and with more comfort than a DMU might provide."
Not true. The C3's are much more comfortable than any electric I've ever ridden.
"So yes, Metrolink would do well to electrify,"
I'm sorry, let me re-word that for you. So no, Metrolink would NOT do well to electrify.
MNRR runs 50 trains in the peak hour on 3 tracks through 125th St. Most of those trains stop there. That would probably not be possible without electricfication, since diesels would take longer to depart from 125th than electrics do.
Admittedly, it'll be a long time before LA needs 17 tph on any given track.
"Admittedly, it'll be a long time before LA needs 17 tph on any given track."
Exactly. For now, diesel service is perfect, and it will be for a long time.
Well at least you're learning, and efficiency is much better, an electric motor is much more efficient thermally than a locomotive engine. And do you know what Level of Service is? It refers to the number of seats available on an hourly basis and the crowding of a train. Now if you can tell me with a straight face that a DE30AC set limited to 4 or 5 cars pulling out of Huntington provides the same LOS at peak hours that a MU set some 9-10 units long running direct from NYP would provide with a straight face, then you have hell of a career ahead of you in politics.
Average time, yes, 28 min between trains. However, look at the time between some trains. 5:44 to 5:59, only 15 min...
You cannot pick and choose statistics. You said " The Port Jefferson line of the LIRR is already running every 20 min during the peak hours..." I went with LIRR's definition of Peak hour trains, which I see you share, and over that time the average headway is 28 minutes. I also could point out that the time between the 4:19am train and the 4:55 train is 36 minutes and the time between the 6:57 train and the 7:35 train is 38 minutes, only two minutes off double your boastful headway. Of course if you take the average of the AM average and PM average headways, then the total peak headway average for the PJ line is 30 minutes 4seconds, even giving you the benefit of the doubt by saying it's a flat 30 minutes, you were off by 33%.
EMU trains can be run off peak more frequently with more efficiency and better acceleration than a diesel hauled coach would allow
You've already made these statements. Yes, they can run more frequently...
Well you don't seem to be listening, so I thought repetition might help. But I must give you credit for at least accepting electric's run more frequently, even if it does run counter to what you said above.
...which is why I'm for electrification of rapid transit(Example being NYC Subway)
Good, I'm glad to hear you're for something that's been accepted fact for well over 100 years now. Now we just need you to join the rest of us in the 21st century, where Europe has handily proved the idea that electrification is only for urban centers with major traffic is completely false. One need only look at Germany's DB or France's SNCF to see how well electrification works in the exurbs. Heck, even SEPTA has caught onto this with their Schuykill Valley Metro, which proposes to run EMUs out to Reading, some 50 miles from Center City Philadelphia, almost exactly the same distance in a straight line between NYP and Port Jeff.
"and with more comfort than a DMU might provide."
Not true. The C3's are much more comfortable than any electric I've ever ridden.
You do realize that you have misinterpreted that statement in an almost comical way, right? I was commenting on the lack of comfort in MUs versus a push-pull set, like the C3s. I agree with you, the C3s are plenty comfortable (although IMHO, a bit cramped vertically), but I prefer Comet sets that NJT runs, the Comet IIMs being my favorites. And of course a EMU out accelerates a DMU, just as an electrically hauled pushpull set will out accelerate a diesel hauled set, and I'm willing to bet that an ALP46 might stand a chance of our accelerating a DMU, especially some anemic DMU like a SPV2000 or something.
Also, one last point, your statement, "...more comfortable than any electric...," makes little sense to me. Might I inquire as to what electrics you have ridden? Have they all been LIRR MUs? You'd do well to catch a NJT ALP pulled push-pull set out of NYP some day, they provide all the comfort of a C3, with better headroom and nearly all the acceleration of a M1. Given that a M1 is running on 750vdc 3rd rail the ALP46 pulled smaller sets probably could equal a M1 for acceleration, since they're getting their power from a much more efficient source.
I'm afraid you need to get it straight, Metrolink would do well to electrify. Especially now, while a good electric like the ALP46 is on the market and the dollar is weak versus the euro, it'll be cheap to get Siemens to come over here and hook up the juice. It'd also provide a good starting point for the California High Speed project, along with the electrification of Caltrans up in San Fran.
Sorry, I'm looking for civil engineering, but thanks for the advice. Seriously though, I wont lie to you. A 4-5 car C3 cant carry more than a 9-10 car MU(seated passengers, standing maybe equal). However, this is not LIRR we're talking about(aside from as an example of how frequently diesel can run), it's Metrolink. Now, I don't know how long their current consists are, or how many of the bombardier coaches an F40PH(Am I confusing Metrolink and Tri-Rail equipment again?) can pull. As of now, the Metrolink coaches carry 130 seated(360-365 crush load capacity). That's pretty damn good, and if they can expand the length of trains, then they'd carry more. A 6-8 car bi-level train(much like PJ runs to NYP) would serve fine.
So what am I trying to say? An 8 car bi-level consist can pull more than a 9-10 car MU consist. Why is this good? Well, for one, capacity. 2: they dont have to spend the money on high level platforms that can fit 12 cars. Instead, they have nice low level platforms(that provide level boarding). They would probably have to lengthen the platforms a bit for the 6-8 cars, but it's still cheaper.
"You cannot pick and choose statistics. You said " The Port Jefferson line of the LIRR is already running every 20 min during the peak hours..." I went with LIRR's definition of Peak hour trains, which I see you share, and over that time the average headway is 28 minutes."
Ok, I goofed on that part. Still, let me make 2 points. 1: 28 min is still good for a suburban commuter line during peak hours. 2: While the average is 28, you still need to look at how they run some trains less than 20 min apart from eachother. Twice they do it, one with a 15 min gap, and one with a 12 min gap. What does this mean? It means diesel service can be operated atleast every 12 min. Do they need it? Maybe, maybe not. However, you're making it sound like EMU can do every 5 min, which I'm sure it can, but do they need it? They'd probably be fine with 20 min gaps during peak hours.
Coulda fooled me, however, my post was in response to this post you made, however an Opera hiccup resulted in it being posted in response to the original post in the thread.
F40PH(Am I confusing Metrolink and Tri-Rail equipment again?)
Yes, Metrolink runs F59PHs with the 16-710 and F59PHIs with the 12-710 powerplant, Tri-Rail runs those F40PHs and the really wierd looking F40PHL-2s kitbashes, both with 16-645s I think.
Now, I don't know how long their current consists are, or how many of the bombardier coaches a [F59PH] can pull.
Figure 4 to 6 cars, however, during the time following the Northridge Earthquake in 1994 I observed 10 car trains operating to Lancaster through Santa Clarita. According to my father they were SRO out to Santa Clarita (at the time Via Princessa and Newhall were not built). However, those 10 car trains were borrowed GO equipment being run with ex-F7 or F9 HEP cars on the other end, so there was likely no limit to how long a train they could provide for.
An 8 car bi-level consist can pull more than a 9-10 car MU consist.
Alright, fine, but only in standees, an Arrow III carries 120 passengers seated with it's 2-3 seating, the only way you will get a Trilevel car to carry more than a MU set is with standees. And then who wants to stand from PJ to NYP or Jamaica, or for that matter from Lancaster or San Bernadino to LAUPT?
2: they dont have to spend the money on high level platforms that can fit 12 cars.
Now you're just showing that you've never seen rail outside the NYC Metro area. It'd be very possible to do a low-floor level-boarding EMU which would require no more station preparation than a Bombardier UDTC tri-level. The electrical components could be mounted on the roof, and above the wheel wells there'd be a raised section, as is so familiar to Bus and LRV fans. Indeed the Bombardier and Kawasaki tri-levels that Metrolink and Long Island RR run both operate on the same principle, except they place people on the roof, not electrical components. You get all the accessibility that the ADA demands without the hassle of trying to raise the now hundreds of platforms that Metrolink operates to. If doors were placed on the upper level sections at the end of the car above the trucks then a cheap trap-less dual platform MU or railcar could be developed with little work. As an aside, if the high level platform doors were equipped with traps, then there'd be more doors to open at low-level platforms than high level platforms, AND they'd have a fully accessible design, perfect for somewhere like Hoboken.
Do they need it? Maybe, maybe not. However, you're making it sound like EMU can do every 5 min, which I'm sure it can, but do they need it? They'd probably be fine with 20 min gaps during peak hours.
They do if nobody drives, which should be the goal of public transportation, to eliminate as many people as possible from the highways. If the trains run empty at first that's okay, they'll quickly fill up as the few people who are riding the empty trains tell their friends about the new, empty and frequently running service. However, I think in the case of both the Metrolink system and the LI Diesel branches electrification, if done simultaneously with double tracking projects to increase capacity, would not be empty for very long.
And yes, I have seen rail outside of the NYC area. SEPTA, Tri-rail, and Metro in WDC.
So, you're saying that there are MU's that have low level boarding. I mean level boarding on low level platforms, like the bombardier bi-levels.
Well, couldn't they just run every 10 min diesel with 10 car bi-levels? That'd probably do enough to get say....75% of the cars off the road. Honestly, you can't get every car off the road, even though I wish RR's could.
"Here's an update for you...
The hour special has been cut to a half hour. The idea is that we're going to do several of these subway specials throughout the year instead of one big hour special on January 31st.
Also, based on advice from posters to this thread, we are focusing on the past, present, and future of the system. A reporter will look at nothing but the expansion plans -- 2nd Ave. subway, Westside/Eastside access, and the "alphabet soup" changes brought on by the rehabilitation of the Manhattan Bridge. Great news by the way for residents of Bay Ridge who will get express service to Manhattan for the first time ever.
Also, we'll look at the famous "pizza connection" that has seen subway fares in lock-step with the price of a pizza slice since 1953.
Meanwhile, I'm not getting in the middle of the R142-S debate that has taken over the thread!
- Brendan Keefe
Correspondent
CBS 2 New York
bkeefe@cbs.com "
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=627051
Maybe with you on the team now, we'll be able to recruit more players. There has been severe resistance thus far...
YES.
Yes, it does matter. Correct spelling makes a post easier to read, and marks someone as a more intellegent person. More weight would then be given to your opinions.
Elias
Really. Sorry, but spell checkers are too much of a crutch. C'mon, why go to the trouble of passing on words of wisdom if they must first be filtered through a "checker" to be...what...worthy? Bah. Gimme dat ol' time religion. Speak yer piece. Don't worry `bout the spelling. Sheeeyooot, do you honestly think it'll make the least bit of difference?
Why use it? You're not going to fool anybody...`cept maybe, yourself. If your logic is sound the ideas will shine through. This ain't school, after all.
Oh yeah? You obviously haven't read certain posters' posts here.
I can spend several seconds looking at the word "county" trying to find the "R" to see if the word is "county" or "country".
Elias
That's okay - in 16th Century English they were used interchangeably. You get documents going on about uprisings in the Countrie of Lincolnshire, etc.
Anybody scan this application to determine whether or not it is merely another covert attempt to get spyware installed on one’s computer…?
IMHO, no redundant applets are necessary what with the functions already offered by the browser software.
I haven't.
IMHO, no redundant applets are necessary what with the functions already offered by the browser software.
What functions in which browser?
Took the Q to Atlantic and caught an M-7 at Atlantic Ave LIRR terminal leaving at 9:15. As I was riding to Jamaica, I noticed the voice might be the same person that does the announcements for Airtrain. (It was the first time I rode an M-7 since Airtrain opened, not that I did rode an M-7 beforehand.) Fast ride to Jamaica where I made an connection to an Ronkonkoma train. After stopping at New Hyde, we sped off to Hicksville and made all stops to Ronkonkoma. There was moderate rain mixed with snow so the platforms were slushy. Arrived at RNK on Platform C (the one furthest away from the station house and eateries) and the two car dual-mode train to Greenport was waiting for us. I took the upper level and enjoyed the scenery as we took off. After Medford, there was a problem with the LED station displays and lighting. Everything was off (the display reset to VER. 10 TELECITE) and on subsequent stops, the display still reads MEDFORD. Despite the snow picking up, I saw some deer in the wooded sections and was very nice to view the scenery. We arrived at Greenport at 12:15, about 12 minutes late (not unusual for a long distance route and the weather.) I looked around the Pier and ferries to Shelter Island and waited there for the 1:17 train that is due back towards RNK. I will go back there in a few months and ride the ferry to Shelter Island this time.
But troubles and horror was awaiting me and other passengers on the way back to RNK. The snow was getting more intense as we left 2 minutes late. Before we even got to Southhold, the TRAIN STOPPED, LIGHTS OUT. Alarm sets off and it appears the circuit breakers died. After the crew resets the breakers we took off again, only to die again after leaving Southhold. We waited and took off again and arrived at Mattituck. Again the train dies and we sat there for 5 minutes. We started again, only to die before we reached Riverhead. By that time we did reach Riverhead, there was talk I overheard on the radio that we might be discharged and have to wait for shuttle buses back to RNK. We reached Riverhead, at 2:20, and 24 minutes late so far. We took our chances, the snow was too intense to wait outside an hour (or two hours) for a bus.
By the time we arrived at RNK, it was 3:10 PM and about 30 minutes late. The good thing was the 2:43 connection was waiting for us and it was another reliable M-7. Becuase of the 30 minute delay, the train was packed by the time we reached Farmingdale, and we sped off to Jamaica. The day ended with another misadventure, after the trai leaves Jamaica, a female customer wanted to get off, but it was to late. Worse yet, she had to go to Richmond Hill, so she was stuck riding the train to Penn then taking the E back to Jamaica Ave/Metropolitan Ave. We arrived at Penn at 4:20, about 20 minutes late but it was fun.
M-7 7201
M-1 8637
Dual Mode 5021 (and return)
M-7 7141
http://palter.org/~brotzman/11-26-03_MORRIS+SJLR/
And some front page material
Here is a nice view of MORRIS tower, closed in early 90's and remoted to FAIR and finally CTEC. Note the mailbox.
Amtrak HHP-8 leading a thanksgiving train through MORRIS interlocking.
Extra long SEPTA R7 doing the same.
And another, northbound SEPTA train in front of the new MORRIS.
MORRIS interlocking is easily accessable from city streets and there even used to be a station in the middle of the interlocking. The topology leads to some nice photo oppurtunities.
Here is a survey of the rest of the tower. It is currently used as an MoW hut.
Here is the 7 track signal brisge at the south end of the interlocking. NJT crews are working on making the leads ready for the new Morrisville NJT yard.
And this is the 4-track gantry at the north end.
The air is generated at the tower and then sent to the turnouts via a system of, usually silver, pipes. Due to the new electric switches the pipeline has had some modifacations in the form of flexible hosing.
Here is the main air resevoirs outside the tower front.
And the pneumatic #91 switch/derail comming off the dump siding.
And the CP valve units for the 21 and 23 turnouts down at the north end of the interlocking.
And, one of those extra long SEPTA R7's.
Here a test train takes the signal at CP-HATCH
Here is a grade crossing in Robeling activated after an SJLR train passing.
Regarding your little comment about me, cram it with walnuts asshole.
Chuck Greene
Come see us,anytime! SEPTA has some neat forms of transit. You'll enjoy our M-4 El cars with the announcements that go on and on.
"Frankford bound train , making all stops" . Next station , 56th st. for the G & the 31".
Chuck Greene
The through track has a 4-stack while the Palmyra Industrial track has a 3-stack.
And do you know what the box on top of the switch motor is doing in the bottom photograph?
The entire plaza surrounding the entrance was COMPLETELY encased in ice. There was no way to go down the escalator to the mezzanine (which, BTW, I've NEVER seen work in either direction since the station opened in December '88) without risking a fall. Wishing to avoid injury to myself, I walked to the secondary entrance by Jamaica Hospital. Besides, if I fell and hurt myself, who's liable?
I betcha the DOT and MTA would probably claim the other is liable. It's on street level, so that's DOT. But the plot of land exists basically for the subway entrance, so that's MTA. That's probably the runaround one would get if attempting to have the ice removed.
I used to frequently walk over the Thomson Avenue bridge, which crosses the LIRR and Amtrak ROW just outside the East River tunnel portals. The south side has a sidewalk, and it's very popular for people going between schools and institutions on both sides. During the winter of 1993-94, which was similarly troublesome for intensity and duration of snow and ice, people were constantly slipping while walking on the bridge. Numerous inquiries resulted in being bounced around between the DOT, the LIRR and Amtrak, each of which passed the buck to the others. (Since when is AMTRAK responsible for cleaning snow off a bridge passing over its ROW?!)
From what I've seen, outdoor platforms in the subway and commuter railroad systems seem to get scraped and shoveled sooner or later. But other 'neutral' territory can be problematical. I don't recall seeing the outdoor sidewalk areas in front of Sea Beach or Dyre stations ever treated either. Newkirk Plaza is another grey area, but isn't snow removal up to the merchants located on it?
However, the short outside entrance passageway to the street-level ENY fare control was completely cleared. Could the presence of a transit police station have anything to with that? Nahhh-
Pedestrian bridges, sidewalks bordering parks, schoolyards and cemeteries never seem to get treated either. I discovered that about the latter coming home yesterday after sundown. Thanks to a fruitless half-hour wait for the E at 7th Avenue, I ran upstairs, grabbed a C (don't ask!) to Rock Center and crossed over for an F to Briarwood/Van Wyck. After taking the south exit towards Hillside- not the main entrance through the long tunnel under Queens Boulevard-I immediately regretted it.
That exit puts you on the service road alongside the cemetery midway between the Boulevard and 87th Avenue, a stretch of about five blocks. The green globe lights weren't lit. None of the street lights along the stretch I had to walk were lit. There were very few cars on that stretch of service road between the place where people from the Boulevard have already entered the southbound expressway and where people from the southbound expressway exit for Hillside. Absolutely no one else came up the stairs with me. What little light there was revealed a steady, irregularly bumpy sheet of ice as far as I could see. Creepy wasn't an adequate description.
I somehow made it back to the car unharmed by ice or muggers. Other than a few ancient boarding-type houses fronting on the service road, it's sheer cemetery. It must be utterly futile to try to determine who cleans THIS stretch of sidewalk. In the perspective of black humor, one would speculate that the cemetery deliberately doesn't do it in an attempt to garner more business. The mere presence of a subway entrance in such a desolate area seems strange- till one realizes that until 1988, that was the main transit egress for the small neighborhood I parked in (first paragraph). Obviously, everyone living there now uses the E at Jamaica/Van Wyck.
That's gotta be a candidate for Subway Entrance in the Most Oddball, Remote Location- do I smell another thread starting?
With regard to who would be liable for a person slipping and falling on ice in front of a subway station, an attorney for such a person would file Notices of Claim within 90 days and then sue both the City and Transit and let them fight out who was responsible. Snow and ice cases are generally difficult for the injured party to win against the City or Transit and a lot of attorneys are reluctant to sign them up. The City prioritizes snow removal beginning with arterial highways, then primary, secondary and tertiary streets. Once all of those are cleaned the City then works on the sidewalks. So the statement that DSNY rarely cleans the sidewalks is dead on. You usually only see it after a major blizzard when they recruit non-DSNY workers to shovel out sidewalks, usually at intersections.
The Governor did his "State of the State" address today as the legislature begins another half-year of purse-snatching and some interesting proposals are in the wind ... thought I'd mention a few of them, particularly of interest to late night and weekend riders who have been bickering about D trains on the local tracks and such.
You may be aware that the "Shrub ministration" no longer supports "heavy rail" and instead is pushing a future of "BRT" or "BUS Rapid Transit" ... money for New York City will NOT be in the budget, and the state, already cash-strapped and looking at more fare hikes for New York City is looking to take part in BRT in order to help fund the MTA.
Among some of the ideas being FLOATED (in other words, this is NOT a law ... YET) is shutting down the subways ENTIRELY between around midnight and 5AM for "maintenance" and using Federal "BRT moneys" to provide BUS substitution of the ENTIRE SYSTEM during those hours, running along subway routes. Other possibilities include maybe running these buses on WEEKENDS as well. Strangely, some of our anointed leaders have been READING subtalk (and yes, confirmed that the topics of CPW ridership are considered "interesting" to legislative aides) and looking at ways to use buses to get some of that federal money, and to cut operational costs and permit more "efficient maintenance" by shutting down the system entirely ... and the corker was "Why is NYC the ONLY city that has to have 24/7 subways anyway?" :(
Just figured I'd throw this "trial balloon" out so people can chide in since our politicos seem keenly interested in our opinions here. :-\
As far as converting the subways into busways, I say, that I'd take up permanent residence in a cemetery before I accept the idea of buses running through subway tunnels!
1) A core subway system ran to get you to Queens Plaza, the Hub, and Downtown Brooklyn,
2) Bus service was more frequent that train service is today, and
3) The traffic signals were modified to accept radio signals to give buses traffic light priority.
Services once every 20 minutes, often with shuttles, dirsupted for maintenance isn't great. The overnight hours is when most vandalism and crime takes place. There are plenty of issues -- where to store the addtional trains, for example. But I wouldn't dismiss a late night bus replacement out of hand.
This would mean 4 car OPTO vs the current waistfull full train service at large intervals
THis would both reduce cost and attract more riders
It won't fly with the Union. It won't fly with the local politicos. It won't fly with the voters. It won't fly with the customers.
This owl ain't got wings.
Serioulsy though, you are right on the money. If anyone saw the movie Rollerball (the original with James Caan in the 70's), you got a glimce of where we are heading. I found it very very interesting that when they re-made it last year, the enemy or evil controlling the world had been changed to from the original, in the original corporations had taken over the world, and before each Rollerball game you would sing your "Corporate Anthem" not the National Anthem. I guess they didn't want to leave that part in tact, it might open people's eyes!
On one hand, you gotta do what you gotta do. IF the federalis are paying the tab to run buses in the middle of the night, and their TA shuts the trains off, then more money in their pocket. Though how much does it costs to run a short train anyway? Plus, this isn't really bus rapid transit, it's bus movement. The only idiots who thinks there's a such thing as BRT that's cheap, has never stepped foot on a bus, and are probably those ppl who wait for the bus to make a full stop before walking from the back to the front doors if they did.
Now, the other problem, Manhatten. Maybe some of you are used to it or are jaded. But when us tourist, either from rural america, or huge cities, when we visit, this is the only thing we say for the first half hour at night(ie 10 11 or 12):
"I can't believe people are still UP at this time"
"Oh my god, the stores close so late"
Disney and universal isn't usually this open or packed at these times at night folks.
Also during my week there, me and a buddy did take the train at about 3 or 4am(maybe 5), and there were a few people on it.
I don't know about Queens, or the Bronx, but i can't see this flying in Manhatten. One of the top tourist/service economies in the nation. And folks, the Service economy isn't 9 to 5. You're going to have to change your liquor laws to midnight if youre going to shut them trains down at midnight.
Thank you folks for your time and attention,
Jeff
The fact they would even consider this just shows how out of touch they are. And people who work night jobs might with any kind of commute can just forget it, try taking a bus from Riverdale or Coney Island to mid Manhattan!
And NOW, the public (as well as state employees) are being kept OUT of your capitol ENTIRELY so as to protect our anointed "precious" from the great unwashed ... from the TimesUnion:
At doors to democracy, a card divides
If they won't let in politico's WIVES, what chance does the public think they have to access their precious? Out of touch? Heh. :-\
Freedom is Slavery...
Ignorance is Strength...
George Orwell, 1984.
I probably would vote if I was old enough.
Reminds me of a quote:
"These candidates make me want to vomit in terror!"
--Homer Jay Simpson
Why?
That rules out Arnie, Henry Kissenger, or anybody else not born in the USofA.
I'm aware of that, but why was it written like that? Surely it is a bit silly seeing as America is a nation of immigrants.
I'm sure there are more reasons than that, but I don't know them off the top of my head.
Mark
http://www.rense.com/general42/ldle.htm
Andy, from Mission Hills, KS writes:
As the economy continues to recover, and the expense of the war in Iraq decreases after next year, what is the administration’s plan for deficit reduction?
Dan Bartlett
The President's budget this year will outline a specific plan to cut the deficit in half over the next five years. This will require the Congress to show discipline on spending the taxpayer's money, so President Bush will stress this point tonight.
(from about three quarters of the way down the page)
Since we’re not raising taxes, we’re still spending the $80 billion a year on our friends in Haliburton rebuilding Iraq, there’s going to be precious little in the kitty for any sort of transport projects!
But there *IS* money for BRT if the State can find a way to get it, that's why this nonsense IS being "considered" ... WILL they do it? It ain't anywhere NEAR that point yet, it's JUST an "idea" at this point. And since they're probably reading these, do feel free to tell them what ya think. :)
As a proud lifetime resident of The Empire State and Greater New York, I am responding to what has been indicated to be a possible development regarding the overnight operations of the railed portion of the NYC Transit Authority services. Apparently, the implementation of what is known as Bus Rapid Transit is being considered as a substitute transportation service.
(B.R.T. is really a generic term, usually referring to operating a bus which would adhere to more "train-like" routing schemes. I.E., having limited stops, or utilizing any number of various right of way corridor designs, to enable a more controlled journey. Which can entail constructing a seperate infrastructure along the same lines as building a railroad line.)
Speaking as a lifetime rail transit rider, I feel this option is not feasible within the municipal limits of New York City. Consider: the City has half the population of the entire state in a small corner of the state. The population density of the city is the highest in the state. The percentage of transit riders is the highest in the state. It is also the highest in the nation.
The dynamic energies generated by the City of New York, the tax revenues it creates, tourism dollars, national and global financial institutions, the profits gained by all the myriad merchants...all this benefits the state at large. And all of it depends on NYC existing as a twenty-four hours a day seven days a week three hundred sixty-five days of the year organism.
One of the primary engines of that mode is, the never-stops-running aspect of the transit system. Can the importance being assured of having the means of traversing the complex matrix this city presents at all times be in contention? Very large cities require a means for reliable internal circulation. Within the highly congested city land space, steel wheels on steel rails have proven themselves to be the optimal solution for this necessity.
It is more efficient to keep the rail transit system in operation around the clock. The tasks necessitated by the closing and opening of the system would actually require MORE resources than keeping it operating. And introducing increased complexity to the s.o.p. will also present more opportunities for system failures. Which will entail the need for even more funding. This does not seem to be a true cost saving move. In addition, there are many expenses associated with a bus centered system. Drivers, maintainence, traffic controls, etc.
Even with the possibility of gaining Federal funding for a project of this nature, it would still be dependent on actual usage by riders. At two thirty in the morning there is a slim chance of getting possible riders to wait on cold street corners if they need to go from West 96th Street to Battery Park City after spending a good portion of their working income on having dinner at an Upper West Side restaurant. Or someone heading back to Penn Station after visiting relatives in the Northeast Bronx.
These types of journeys are the lifeblood of the City. Both the City and the State must keep the services available for the residents. And for the visitors. From upstate and all the rest of the planet. It is highly unlikely that a workable BRT system could ever be viable in this city. Such a scheme could be considered as alternatives to expanding the track infrastructure of the current subway lines endpoints. But within the rail transit-covered areas of the city I feel it would truely be a waste of resources.
As the representatives, the interfaces for the citizens of the State of New York to the collective processes known as government, I implore you to please consider the intrinsic nature of NYC and NYS when appraising a Bus Rapid Transit scenerio.
Thank you.
Sincerely,
James S. Gagliardi
NYC's state senators and assemblycritters ARE up for re-election this year. NYC's representatives (along with the suburbs surrounding) are the majority in both houses. If yours ain't doing the job, time for a replacement. But NYC's got PLENTY of friends up here, it's just that most of us aren't your elected lawgivers.
Andy needs to come over and show me the proof of this. Having machines and people take the place of the ones being laid off maybe more "efficient" but doesn't make a good economy.Or does me he mean for every factory that closes, they open a super-walmart or super target employing 450 each.
Oh wait, A NY based company just invented a shopping cart that scans and bills you, let alone wal-marts self-check-outs. Well, that's out.
Yes it does. Our economy has grown despite the continued automation of industry. The industrial revolution was the first major triumph of automation, and yet unemployment is less severe than it was prior to the industrial revolution.
Automation != exportation of jobs to foreign countries.
There's two problems going on actually, but exportation, I don't think, has any bearing on our GDP or positive effects of our economy.
Manufacturing sector? Dead, but took years to kill it off.
Call centers? Quickest kill off in the history of any industry. Thousands everymonth going to India.
Then you got the original, automation and people doing 2 persons jobs. When you're buddy is laid off, you do his work. Now you're doing two jobs, with some automation making it more efficient. You still have the highest unemployment and lowest job creation in history, but the few people left working are doing a damn good job at it(until Bush kills their overtime(And I don't mean Jeb! cut all upper-income tax gains stock while creating record tuition increases in the same budget)).
So, with nice round numbers, you have a million people.
400,000 of them lost jobs. 100,000 of them were "reeducated", ie cashiers at the Target. and the remaining 600,000 are doing the work of themselves, and their laid off counterparts, but much more efficiently.
I'm guessing those 300k homeless, and 100k making below the cost of living don't count. Maybe we should send them off to the moon so they won't screw up the numbers interpretation.
All my jobless peers who i graduated with don't see a good economy.
The "laid-off" section of the newspaper I call it don't look to good.
You gotta be rich or oblivious to think things are rosy(and I know you're the last person to be that). And aren't we up to a record # of homeless now?
My big point after the off-topic rant:
Even if we had only half the population working, and record GNP and GDP's and so on, that's not a civilization I want to be in.
That would suck. As Dick would say, "Big Time".
GDP is stupid. America's GDP surged because of the money involved in the OJ Simpson trial. Talk about a stupid measure.
When efficiency goes up such that you'll only need to have half of the population working (if such a thing is possible) then you'll have nearly the whole population working half as much as now.
At some point Friday will become like Saturday, the next weekend day.
True, true - they were even outdoing the French for strikes in those days. Who was it? The power station workers?
Second, turn off that annoying Netscape form filler feature (DUDE! alliteration! like Ben Bensons)
Whichever bloody union it was, they've well and truly wrecked the country (along with the Northern Irish). Heath was forced to call an election in Feb 1974, which resulted in a hung parliament. He'd have had a majority (and been able to tell the trade unionists to sod off back to work) but for the fact that the Ulster Unionists were in a strop about their intransigence forcing Willie Whitelaw (the NI Secretary at the time) to impose direct rule (Ulster should be given away to the Irish for this act of disloyalty alone). The result of that was Heath resigning, Wilson becoming PM again, Heath losing another election in October and then a leadership contest the following year, landing us with Thatcher who wrecked both the Conservative Party and (more importantly) the country.
(You can tell I'm a wet.)
It may well be true that subway maintenance could be done more efficiently at night; some other systems do that.
If the buses are to be paid for with Federal funds, MTA could save money, but it would cost more to the taxpayer.
I don't think it would be reasonable to shut down the subways on weekends, but that is not what is being suggested.
I suggest you compare M101 (3rd Ave bus) run times with #6 train run times in the middle of the night, say from 14th St to 125th.
To get comparable times, assume 125/Lex is half way (in time) between 125/Amsterdam and 96/Lex or 97/Third by bus.
S/B: M101 bus takes 28 mins from 125/Lex to East Village; #6 train takes 22 mins from 125/Lex to Astor/Park.
N/B: M101 bus takes 28 mins from East Village to 125/Lex; #6 train takes 21 mins from Astor/Park to 125/Lex.
For the same journey at busy times of day, the (limited stop) bus takes 43 to 44 mins and the local train takes 23 to 24 mins.
So the train is somewhat faster than the (all stops) bus at night, but the advantage of the train is of course far greater by day.
The reason bus time are so fast is that they hardly carry anybody.
Only 136 passengers leave the hub on the M101 between midnight and 5 am, compared to 2194 for the Lex Ave Local.
That reason plus the more important factor, being the absence of traffic congestion at night.
You'd spend more on labor to shut down and restart the system
and on the bus drivers than you'd save in total costs.
I suppose it'll work if when the bell rings at midnight, trains get laid up wherever they ARE. :)
That wont' work. You will have to shut down one direction so that all the trains end up at the yards at 11:59pm.
For the benefit of the "clueless", please explain why it's such a dumb idea to close the subways at night for maintenance.
When I referred to "clueless" I was referring to the minds that came up with this idea. It'd work FINE in most cities, not New York tho'.
There must be a relatively quiet period of three hours or so.
they'd need a hell of a lot of buses to take up the slack
I have not seen any ridership data for each hour of the day, except rush hours. I cannot find any such breakdown in the MTA ridership report or on the NYMTC hub-bound web site, but the latter offers to provide more information.
Is there any truth in the argument that subway maintenance could be done more efficiently at night with no trains running?
Now you're talking my language (British), meaning that there is only one side to the argument!
Right. Sorry I'm late. It's just that my walk has gotten rather silly of late and it's taking me longer to get anywhere.
Well, it seems logical that that should be so, and it's certainly the argument used in London, which of all other subway cities is arguably the one most comparable to New York. You can turn off the current in the third rail, for a start, which makes for a big improvement in maintenance workers' safety! (They use battery-powered locos to haul the maintenance trains.)
In NYC, the rails are pretty much "earthed" whilst the side rail carries 600 volts and is covered. In addition, track safety and "structure walk" training is such, combined with safety equipment and official "TA booties" that there's not as substantial a peril with mains engaged in NYC. Thus, "live railroad" isn't so much an issue as it is in the UK. Just remember to actually put OUT your lanterns and your flagger and don't carry a "walkman" in your ears, and you've got a fair shot at it. :)
When last my buddy who told me about this visited here, he'd already seen that the idea being kicked around here wasn't going to fly - I trust he'll be back with some of his "think tank" buddies to drop this idea and come up with something even MORE remarkable. Heh. I figured putting it up here though would have gotten a bit MORE of a "say what?!?!" reaction than it has, but then again people see "Selkirk" and figure they'll go read something else perhaps. =)
Yeah!!! Shut those damn subways DOWN!!!!!
Or they could just do like SEPTA and have a horribly coordinated, incredibly awkward 15 to 30 minute seizure while the Subway closes down and the buses take over, that's worked well for us. I've only gone through it once on the MFL, and that was enough, but I've had the displeasure of encountering a terminal swap on the Subway Surface trolleys a good dozen times now. There's a small amount of terror (as well as a whole lot of anger) in seeing the flashing blue lights which mean the trolleys aren't operating in the tunnel and you've gotta go to 40th St on the MFL for the diverted trolleys. Of course the change never goes smoothly, the last trolley leaves the tunnel well before the closing time, in my experience with the 10pm early closures, I was once on the last trolley out and it left the portal westbound at 9:45pm. On the other end, sometimes it can be later than 10:30 before the first trolley turns up at 40th and Market to recieve it's passengers not lucky enough to get a ride on the last trolley out for their respective lines. Keep in mind that most times the trolleys are running 20 minute headways and thanks to the night time terminal swap, headways could top 30 minutes.
This is the kind of thing that could haunt the NYCTA should they choose to shut down the subway at night. The change in modes is nearly impossible to orchestrate.
Stop scaring people. This idea is ALWAYS proposed and always rejected when the pre-requisite fear it invokes gets the desired results.
That money will NEVER reach the subway because it does not save enough money. Only rush-hour cuts and weekend cuts save real money.
Alstom didn't allow renegotiating delivery, no money for the big railroad merger MTA had planned, the MTA Taj Mahal continues to eat money, yada yada. So already there's been reductions such as the cutbacks on the 6, shortened "rush hours" on other lines (so I hear) and the new plans for B division schedules. So things are already on the ratty edge and owing to higher "administration fees" to MTA from the state and lower subsidies, one of the thoughts among the clueless was trying to cut costs with this silly idea to avoid a far hike since our esteemed legislators will be standing in YOUR district, hat in hand, wanting you to be VERY pleased so you'll re-elect them. Whoops.
So right there, I can't see any of the NYC delegation allowing this but with population shifts, upstate does have the majority in the Senate and the Assembly has also shifted. Thus this is being proposed. I won't go into many of the even sillier "off-topic" dumbass ideas also discussed such as the "gun tax" (which would apply to POLICE officers! And everyone else since it would be "per gun", no exemptions) or "Casinos in NYC" (well, sorta - Video Lottery Terminals [VLT's] not only at race tracks, but other venues like Penn Station, Port Authority and such) or "sex tax" on rubbers, or a raft of other silliness. "User fees" across the board ARE already alloted to go up (no surprise there), but I found THIS one amusing and "on topic" for here. This is the time of year when stupidity reigns at the Capitol.
Of course, I would prefer that transit could be upgraded without being re-labeled things like BRT, but I'll just have to do those things myself.
It was "BarBQ pizza" night down at the tavern, sat with my buddy and got a bit more on this ... apparently the funding CANNOT be used for "existing service" or "subsidy" - any BRT funding must be SOLELY for NEW services through "downtown areas" and that was the basis for this booby to get hatched - what NEW "rapid transit by bus" services can be created to get some of that money? Apparently, this would allow the purchase of NEW buses as well as street construction in Manhattan to accomodate this and a relatively substantial amount of funding COULD be gotten if some plan could be put together - apparently THIS is where the idea came from to implement it as "alternative subway service" since there's language in the BRT standards that it has to be equivalent to "rail" operations only using buses. :-\
So theoretically, it cannot be used to augment "express bus" service, it has to SUBSTITUTE for RAIL ... in theoretical discussions, if the subway were to be shut down overnight, money could be used for bustitution although what BRT *really* wants programmatically is the abolition of lines such as the G and the L, replacing them with full time "BRT" such as was done when the Myrtle and Third Avenue El came down - this would be an "allowed" use of the federal funds. I'm told hundreds of Millions to as much as a Billion would be available if this was done. One of the downsides though were they to go for this is that acceptance of the funding would come at a price of no FURTHER "rail construction" could be done - the idea is to REPLACE rail with bus service.
So while the idea has been tossed around (and now that I have a better idea myself of what's at stake) it's looking like they're NOT going to go this route as it won't bring money where MTA could make any REAL use of it in improving existing anything, and in the end run would likely run costs UP over time. But for now, they're still kicking the idea around ...
The financial mess that the Feds and the States are in will have to be fixed--but as long as the bribers/looters of public coffers own the legiscritters, it won't be done for the public good.
In other words, this is the time of the legislative year when the crack pipe's all cranked up. :)
As discussed previously, I like the idea of BRT out there in the country in places that doesn't have rail now. Instead of feeder bus routes with a transfer, buses could get on a busway and run express to the major destinations -- downtown, airport, stadium, campus. Later on, if the line leads to enough land use change at BRT stations and you need more capacity, you can convert to rail.
Doesn't work in Manhattan, however. For real BRT, you need grade separation in densely developed areas. If you are going to build an underground busway in Manhattan, you might as well build the subway.
They are not, however, good substitutions for viable rail services. But everything has it's place and role.
Most cities in this country close down at 10 or 11 PM. Downtown DC is deserted at that time of night. People go home and go to bed. THe Metro shuts down at midnight, except weekend nights to accomodate the bar-crowds. NYC isn't like that. Its the city that doesn't sleep, and there is demand for DECENT transit services throughout the city on a 24 hour basis.
Maintnance could be done while the system is down, yes....but.....that system only allows a 4 - 5 hour window for maintnance....hardly enough time to complete a major project. FOr any major project, you would STILL have to shut down a track or a line on a weekend with a G/O like you do currently.....nothing changes. "simple" maintnance tasks could be accomplished at night, just like they are now, with the trains running, since they run on low headways. Ideally, the subway would be entirely reverse signaled such that single track operations can be implemented at night, so maintnance can be performed on one track while trains share the other track. DC Metro does it all the time, and it works fairly well with only minor delays.
As for the bus rapid transit idea....a bus is a bus is a bus. Bus rapid transit is a bus that operates in a designated lane or right of way, has "stations" (like the subway), incorporates many other technologies as well in order to speed the trip up, etc. I can't imagine NYC doing something like this, except maybe in areas where NO SUBWAY LINES EXIST NOW!!! Thats where money should be spent on BRT....places where no subway exists and ridership would be too low to justify a subway line! Implementing fancy BRT directly over or under a subway line is a waste of money....a huge waste of money. FOrget about the stations, the dedicated rights of way, the electronic scrolling signs, and the off-board fare collection, and lets just say that we have regular busses replace the subway.....you'd still have to buy an awful lot of busses to accomodate the riders! Busses that would only be used at night! A waste of money! I don't see the federal government handing over cash to NYC for a plan that will not be BRT, and will only operate at night.
Lets face it, redundancy in transportation is generally a good thing, but not this kind of "time-share" redundancy, where we have two systems for different parts of the day only. People have pointed out the logistical difficulties with shutting down and re-opening the system. Re-opening will most likely involve inspecting every inch of revenue track before allowing passanger trains to operate over them, combine that with the time to get trains to and from the yards, and were talking about a 2 or 3 hour closure at most. Keep the service, and do maintnance on weekend G/O's like we do now. I think people in general will be much more in favor of weekend G/O's, even if it means whole lines shut down, then people would be for lines shut down at night, every night, weather or not maintnance actually needs to take place! That being said, on the lightly travelled lines, night-time G/O's that involve replacing trains with busses could be evaluated on a case-by-case basis.
-MM
You have all the fleet needed during rush hours.
Arti
Gov. George just keeps doing it to us. I hope the voters remember !
"... and the state, already cash-strapped and looking at more fare hikes for New York City is looking to take part in BRT in order to help fund the MTA ..."
Oh I dought that ... too much cost in setting up a real BRT system.
However they might call it a BRT system just to get the money, i.e. convert some route to a new kind of bus. There are a few on the market that might fit the bill, i.e. just a little bigger vs. true BRT.
Otherwise, I see no need for BRT. The only surface streets I could think of for BRT are Flatbush av and Ocean Parkway, if it's service to Midtown and uptown with limited stops(say, Rockaways/Coney Island to PABT and GWBBT with limited stops between)
Regardless, any talk of shutting down the trains at any time is pure, pure evil.
Also, didn't Water Taxi just start Red Hook service? I think only 12-2 PM though, which needs to be improved. Also, Bob's trolley to Borough Hall would have been perfect for Red Hook. And the line to the Fulton Ferry terminal. Damn, it's a perfect system. Connecting the 2 Brooklyn ferry terminals with downtown Brooklyn.
I may have been reading the post wrong, but I don't think anyone was talking about removing New York's subway lines and going to BRT full-time. Rather, I thought they were just talking about using BRT for late-night service. From the posts I've read I think this isn't such a hot idea, but it's a far cry from tearing up the rail system.
Mark
Manhattan *already has* a "BRT" network according to this definition. Since BrT can run on ordinary streets, the M6 from Midtown to Downtown is BRT.
And, according to my last years' Manhattan bus map, there are "Manhattan Express Bus Service" in the bottom corner. X25, X26, X90, X92.
Real innovative idea. NOT!
Here are the total figures by hour and direction:
12-1: 6,606 Inbound, 27,676 Outbound
1-2: 3,147 Inbound, 10,918 Outbound
2-3: 2,265 Inbound, 5,195 Outbound
3-4: 2,698 Inbound, 3,393 Outbound
4-5: 6,660 Inbound, 3,200 Outbound
One would get an idea of the number of buses required to handle this load by dividing these numbers by 50. That's nearly 700 bus loads between midnight and 1 AM. The only time slot where buses have a chance of being a viable alternative is between 2 and 4 AM, when demand is substantially less than 10,000 per hour.
Of course, we have not included the demand for transportation that does not include crossing the CBD cordon, so total demand has been systematically underestimated. I'm sure the MTA has the turnstile counts by hour, which would be a better demand estimate.
Even the low figures of 6,000 passengers would mean 120 bus loads. Assuming that the buses would take 2.5 hours per round trip that comes to 300 buses to handle the two minimum demand hours.
Then there is the question of fare collection. Will drivers carry change or will the subway booths be kept open to accomodate the public. Possibly rides will be free like the GO buses I've seen.
It still looks like a money loser, even if the Feds contribute for the buses. As another Republican used to say: "Any way you slice it, it's still baloney."
BOTTOM line (circumvents FACTS every time!) ... our LAWGIVERS have come up with this "rocks float GOP dance" ... logic need NOT apply, these are "weapons of mass distraction." :)
If Boston, with an exponentially smaller public transportation infrastructure, can't seem to make it work, how do the politicos expect the MTA to do it?
Oh, wait, politicos. Never mind.
More information can be seen at http://www.badtransit.com/twatch_more.php?id=789_0_2_0_M
Does the Bush Administration want to provide New York City with money? No! It needs an excuse to fund East Side Access but not the Second Avenue Subway. How about Pataki's debt, and the "accounting scandal" of covering up its fiscal implications until after the 2002 elections?
"BRT features showing the most promise for implementation in New York City include:
- More frequent service where needed.
- Bus bulbs, which bring the sidewalk out one lane so buses do not have to maneuver into and out of bus stops.
- Longer bus stops to eliminate delays as buses wait to enter the stop.
- Bus lanes with raised lane dividers or other physical means to discourage or prevent other vehicles from violating bus lanes.
- Low-floor buses that can speed boarding and exiting and encourage riders to exit through the rear door.
- Pre-boarding fare payment at selected high-volume boarding times/locations to reduce dwell time at bus stops.
- Bus traffic signal priority to help late-arriving buses catch up to schedule.
- Real-time management of buses to achieve even spacing between buses."
Curitiba, Brazil is the "gold-standard" for BRT. Unfortunately, a much more scaled down vision of "BRT" is often placed on the table by people who wish to sell buses or divert rail proposals.
I ask, would NYC build a "real" BRT network just for late night subway substitution? Would the Feds give "BRT" money to NYC to substitute late night service with conventional buses over conventional streets?
Isaac
"Character" Abe Hirschfield (sp?) periodically buys ads urging the TA to shut down late at night. (He also suggests that the TA and Amtrak coat their wheels with rubber to minimize noise...) Of course, Hirschfield is in the parking garage business, so he'd stand to benefit from the people who'd just drive and park their cars instead. "Follow the money," they say.
Of course, people might get so turned off by the substitute bus service that they might just take their entertainment dollar elsewhere entirely.
Isaac
How do locking mechanisms work on other cars, and how are they so silent? It almost seems that we've taken a step backwards technologically if we had silent doorlocks, but we have "stapler gun" noises now!
In the open position, for a door panel to the right of the
door operator, the short arm is at about 10 o'clock. When
the door closes the motor shaft runs clockwise. The door panel
is completely closed at about the 2 o'clock position. Then
the motor shaft over-travels to about 4 o'clock and comes to rest
against a stop. This effectively locks the panel because now
the short arm is pointing down. Any attempt to push the panel open
would only try to push the short arm further clockwise, against
the stop.
This design also makes it easy to do the emergency release
lever, which basically rotates the motor shaft counterclockwise
until it is no longer over-travelled. At that point one can easily
push the door back, the resistance being limited to door track
friction and the friction of the motor itself, compouned by the
gear ratio, all of which is fairly low.
The following is speculation. I don't know for certain how
the new door operators work. I believe they are contained entirely
in the narrow space above the door. The top of the door panel
is driven directly from a worm gear. Worm gear drives are
generally not reversible. I.e. you can turn the shaft and cause
the nut to slide linearly, but pushing or pulling on the nut
will not cause the shaft to turn, it will simply bind. This is
generally a good thing in terms of mechanical design but in this
case it introduces a complication: how do you manage the emergency
release?
Again, I _speculate_ that at the end of the door closing stroke,
the door panel is mechanically disconnected from the worm gear
drive and is locked in place by a locking pin. The emergency
release lever, located behing an access panel above the doorway,
pulls that pin and now the door panel can be slid out of the way,
no longer being bound to the worm gear. I suspsect that the stapler
gun noise is the sound of the transfer between riding on the worm
gear and being locked by the pin.
The principal advantage of the new type of door operator is
space and weight savings. However, these may turn out to
be maintenance headaches for transit, as the mechanism is more
complicated and delicate.
How can I find the consist of a train by knowing its Amtrak service number? Let's say I rode Amtrak service 179 and want to know its consist. Is there any way to find out? At least the locomotive?
Um no...where did you pull that out of?
is there any easier way?
As I said, pretend to be an employee and call the NOC in Wilmington.
Regards,
Jimmy
I don’t have a recording though.
Regards,
Jimmy
OTOH, you can probably make a better chime recording on your own. If you have any musician friends, see if you can get hold of a xylophone. Hit the notes around middle C until you get the correct pitch and then record at your leisure. That will get you over the wind problems typically encountered recording outdoors in less than ideal conditions.
Jimmy
ask Sheriff Austin.
Makes lots of sense to me, given limited resources.
Building the SAS - pinch me, I'm dreaming!!
1) Has there been a specific date given for the start of construction?
2) Will this be a 2-track line or a 4-track line? Even if only two tracks are planned for now, I think it would be incredibly short-sighted to not at least have some sort of provision for express tracks.
Thanks in advance...
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
I agree. Try to make yourself heard.
No, really, try.
Mark
However, that's NOT the case. These tunnels are primarily to be built using Tunnel Boring Machines (which has been deemed the most cost-effective way), and there's no "volume discount" in building for four tracks rather than two using TBMs -- it would cost nearly twice as much as building for two tracks.
David
I assume each track will be run in its own tube (a la London Underground or Chicago 'L')?
And if that's the case, I don't suppose it would be possible to use larger TBM's and bore each tunnel big enough to handle two tracks, even if only one track is laid in each tunnel for now? Certainly such TBM's exist; after all, each of the highway tubes under the rivers is easily wide enough for two or three tracks. (Or alternatively, just bore one monster tube wide enough for 4 tracks.)
Oh well... At least the new line will be to BMT/IND specs, which will give it greater capacity than a 2-track IRT line. Maybe they'll at least have the sense to build it so that 750-foot trains can run on it.
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
As r doubles, A increases by a power of two...not very cost effective either.
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to get this:
p
David
But that, of course, is because of THE very heavy passenger traffic on the Queens Boulevard line. As a global generalisation about publ;ic transport, "little and often" provides a better service than "big and seldom", provided that overall capacity is sufficient. Passengers do not have to wait as long.
B. The post I was responding to asserted that service wouldn't operate along Second Avenue as frequently under BMT/IND operation as it would under IRT operation. My response was that the most intensive service NYCT operates is on a BMT/IND (in this case IND) line. What I was getting that is that the fact that Second Avenue is to be a BMT/IND line would not necessarily (in and of itself) be an impediment to operating intensive service.
David
I'm happy to hear the stubway will be built first because it gives you something usable the soonest. Of course there will be the temptation not to build anything more than that, but that is better than the temptation not to build at all.
For second Avenue, the problem seems to be some major existing subterraninan infrastructure than cannot be moved. (ie a great huge sewer tunnel)
Elias
I'd like to see 4 tracks south of 42nd.
According to the SDEIS, the stub line to Grand Central -- and extended out to Secaucus Transfer -- was turned down because service on the stub would have to share just two tracks with service on the main line. That would mean that service could not be added from Queens later on, because the Grand Central Stub service would use up the capacity. It would also mean that MetroNorth riders would not use the SAS to Lower Manhattan, because the Lex Express would remain twice as frequent and -- with many fewer stops -- faster.
Everything changes if you put the New Jersey to Grand Central to Lower Manhattan via Second Avenue on express tracks. It would allow NJT riders to get to Grand Central via a change at Secaucus transfer, which the ARC project would not. It would provide a faster ride to Lower Manhattan for Metro North.
It seems that most new subway lines being built in the country don't have express/local setups, which IMO is a shame. So despite the fact that just about every other Manhattan trunk line has express/local, this will be the first without. A sad prescedent, but lets face the reality: things are more expensive these days to build so we might as well build it cheaply....if they have to build 4 tracks, it might significantly add to the cost enough where it would just never get built at all, so IMO, its a good compromise.
I seem to remember that on one of the previous occasions it was discussed, someone said that there are water tunnels under part of Second Avenue in the Upper East Side which take up a good proportion of the width, so that there is only room for a two-track line.
North of there, and frankly I was hoping and still hope that the initial segement will run to 125th, not just 96th, and that it is built if six years or so, not 10.
If we get funding to 125th now, we'll at least get something that breaks even on East Side Access. The odds that the rest will be funded will greatly improve, especially after the northern section opens and the ridership numbers come in.
With a new and more forward looking City Council, NIMBY appears to be dying in NYC, unless opponents can get injunctions in the courts and then drag out the lawsuits for years. Amazing stuff seems to be happening, compared with the past (wish I could say the save for the state government). But money is still a BIG concern, thanks to all the debt put on the MTA's books by our friends in Albany.
We'll see.
It will. But it's pretty stupid to not run trains to 96th just because you want to pretend the MTA will stoip digging just because trains are running. Any operable segment is good - it attracts riders and gets MTA some operating revenue.
Spring 2004: The EIS is complete and the MTA proceeds with the excavation, set for 2005.
Winter 2004: Funds are set aside from the 2005-2009 MTA Capital Program for SAS.
Spring 2005: As workers are ripping up 2nd Ave, a huge rat is discovered under 2nd Ave at East 79th st. The rat has a condo set up in the middle on 2nd Ave, right where the proposed tunnel is built.
Summer 2005: The rat claims he is immune from Eniment Domain and is sued by the MTA for removal.
Winter 2005: MTA wins the lawsuit against the rat. Proceeds to demolish the "condo" and evict the rat. In the process, a worker is bitten by the rat and sues the MTA for $20 billion, the cost of building the entire SAS line, with interest.
2006: Court orders halt on building SAS, pending the outcome of the lawsuit.
2011: Worker wins lawsuit, and the MTA is broke.
2012: Residents and Business owners that were displaced as a result file a class-action lawsuit against the MTA, and the rat too for starting this whole mess in the first place.
2020: Still no action on SAS. MTA settles lawsuits but is told to start the whole process all over again
2030: New EIS starts
2040: Groundbreaking for new version of SAS starts, at this point, railfanners are crying over the retirement of their beloved R142 cars on the IRT lines.
As so it goes on.
Thank you trial lawyers!
Frankly, this is no surprise. Did anyone really expect the MTA to dig up all of 2nd Avenue at once? And given that it will be done in stages, the upper portion is where the need is most urgent, and where benefits can be delivered sooner.
I also think that it's better to defer construction of the Lower Manhattan portion until the other transit issues downtown are resolved --- particuarly the design of the Fulton St Transit Center and the options for a JFK Airport connection (if any).
>>>>what about a track connection to the Chrystie street subway to Water st?<<<<
The publicly posted materials state that a track connection to the Chrystie St subway has already been ruled out.
Which is a goddamn tragedy. No connection to Nassau, no connection to Chrystie.
Get a grip dude.
Get a grip dude.
Its turning a 80-year old plan for a useful, reroutable trunk line into a new 2-track double-ended stub which can't carry anything other than itself. It's ignoring already-built trackage [under Confucious Towers and on the Nassau line] and useability. It's not the end of the world, but it's par for the course at the MTA.
I believe it will use the Confucius Towers tunnel.
Well, the TBMs can't be in two places at once, but because the section north of 96th Street will not be TBM, there is nothing (other than money) to stop that section from being built concurrently with the 63rd to 96th Street section. The TBMs could keep munching south from there.
In any event, has anyone associated with the project considered making a street improvement while the street is being torn up? My idea is to build underpasses to bring Second and perhaps Third Avenues under 125th Street. The goal would be to separate north-south traffic on the avenues from east-west traffic on 125th Street, so that both could have traffic signal priority (ie. the long light). As it is, those traveling to and from the Triboro Bridge are delayed by south bound traffic off the 3rd Avenue bridge and Harlem River Drive, and vice versa (First Avenue passes under the Triboro overpass).
My goal, of course, is transit-related -- to provide a faster trip on the M60 bus, the only link to LaGuardia it seems we are getting. It would also help express buses from the north and heading for the avenues.
And on 2nd Ave, there is a bus depot 1 block to the north (126th st), how will buses from the depot access 125th st from 2nd Ave if they have to use it?
As in the First Ave underpass at 42nd, not all lanes would go under.
(Expensive solution at just two intersections).
Yes but key ones, with approaches from heavily-trafficed roads to three bridges. I've heard $100 million per intersection -- but that's when you aren't digging up the street to build a subway anyway. If the subway would be down low enough, the marginal cost of the underpass may not be that high.
Well, I suspect those two sections will be--if not concurrent--pretty close to it. The SAS between 125th and 96th won't be much good on its own.
In any event, has anyone associated with the project considered making a street improvement while the street is being torn up? My idea is to build underpasses to bring Second and perhaps Third Avenues under 125th Street.
I think I've read all of the publicly available documents, and I don't recall seeing that idea. Offhand, it strikes me as a very expensive and elaborate solution to the traffic problems at just one or two intersections. I'm not sure the end justifies the means.
Not in this case. Feel free. Obviously, the MTA shouldn't pay for the marginal cost of the underpasses, so DOT would have to. I was just looking at the SAS construction diagram on the MTA site, and it appears that the tail tracks would extend all the way to Fifth Avenue. Thus, two lanes of Madison and Fifhth could be run under as well.
Let's say the marginal cost of putting two lanes of 2nd, 3rd, Madison and 5th was $25 million per intersection over the cost of subway construction alone. Would it be worth $100 million to speed traffic (including bus traffic) on the most important east-west street north of 59th, and the main routes for buses and trucks from the north to Midtown, by allowing both to have signal priority? I'd say say so.
Then forget it. Perhaps substitute 2nd Avenue at 42nd Street, since there is already an underpass on 1st Avenue, and perhaps 60th/59th, since First Avenue goes under the Queensboro Bridge approach.
Non-sequiter. Lower Manhattan is fully funded in a separate pot and the Fulton Street Transit Center will be open for business long before the full length SAS starts running. There's nothing to defer.
It's a long shot, but if they decide to build a new East River tunnel (instead of hijacking one of the existing tunnels for airport service), then that same tunnel logically should be the SAS extension to Brooklyn.
Not that logic inevetably prevails in transit projects, but....
I'm very sure the "minority" community is not happy about this one either..
I, and the rest of my family, will be sending a letter to the MTA when I wake up tomorrow.
N Bwy
The community of which you speak has no problem with it at all so long as the Capital Plan retains a full length subway. Yes, the first operable segment will reach 96th Street, and will be a Qtrain extension. This by itself will help East Harlem residentts to some extent in that it's a shorter bus ride down 2nd Av to the subway. But while that's made ready for service the crews will be working under 2nd Av in Harlem to make that ready too. And then East Harlemites will be getting on at 125, 116, 106 Streets. And having spent a couple o years working with Field's task force, alongside a lot of other advocates, I can tell you nobody will be crying when they break ground.
Be grateful when they do.
Instead of bellyaching and whining to the MTA about this, you could spend your time focusing your letters and phone calls on state legislators and members of Congress to make sure funding shows up for the SAS on the 2005-2009 Capital Plan. That's what will ensure that everything gets done to benefit everyone who depends on the subway.
Two reasons why the 63rd to 96th St. segment was chosen first:
1) demand along the 4/5/6 is highest along the 59th/96th segment....remember the SAS is being built as a relief for the Lex. You build where the demand is highest first to give them the first relief. Then you move on to the next segment.
2) if you build from 63rd to 96th, it connects to something: the 63rd St line and thereafter the connection to the Broadway line, and if they want to get creative with services, they could even route trains down 6th Ave. either way, trains would originate at 96th St and run downtown via Broadway or 6th Ave. Building a line from, say 125th St. to 96th St. is a useless POS! It doesn't connect to anything! You can run all the shuttles you want, but it wont get people downtown and won't get people off the Lex.
Those are the two most important reasons why the 63rd to 96th section will be built first. Those are completely "colorblind" reasons.
I'm sure the minorities in East Harlem are happy that the subway is at least coming towards them. If funding were to be cut off after the 96th to 63rd segment is built, but before the 125th to 96th segment is built, THEN they have a valid reason to complain. However the fact that the second segment serves a minority low-income area is probably enough to ensure that the money keeps on coming in.....afterall that would be a major blow from the minority community to any politician who votes to halt the project at 96th, so trust me, they won't do it.
New subway development in New York tends to help everyone to some extent. The 63rd Street Extension brought Manhattan-bound service to the Queensbridge Houses whose population needs mass transit. The Connector was designed to help primarily the crowds of people coming into Manhattan from Forest Hills, Kew Gardens and Jamaica (again, helping a mix of rich and poor) and gave the lower-income folks at Queensbridge access to the rest of Queens' subway territory.
The Archer Av project, badly timed and sequenced though it was, helped begin the revitalization of downtown Jamaica, and helped pave the way for AirTrain, the sopping center at One Jamaica Center, and other investments. Minority populations have benefitted.
When you build a subway in New York, everybody wins.
Could you please explain where the "missing section" is, and how it would be operated to help matters in Queens.
Thanks for the explanation, Steve.
N Bwy
-Robert King
-Robert King
I also like the brushed aluminum cars with their retro-style TTC logos. They look like a life-sized Lionel train set opened up on Christmas morning. The trolleys have a wonderful design, and I love the Scarborough Rapid Transit, too.
I just hope I can go back someday, because I rode the whole system, and then they opened the Sheppard line, so I have to return so Ican reclaim my I've-ridden-the-whole-system status.
Mark
I took about 45 minutes of video on trains and streetcars with no complaints from any drivers or conductors.
Now if they can just get that Spadina extension to York University started and extend the Sheppard Line to Scarborough...
Those extensions would be great. When I was in Toronto it was for aconference at York University, and it would have been nice to have had a direct ride to downtown. I even heard one intersting idea that would have extended the line to York U. and then swung back east and south again to connect with the Yonge branch, making the line into a giant loop. I don't know much about the merits or chances of this idea, but it was fun to look at on paper.
I also found the TTC to be incredibly friendly and helpful.
Mark
The first TTC subway was opened in 1954, so they were able to learn from past mistakes of other cities. The original section includes a sharp bend, just north of "Union Station" station, but otherwise I find that it works too well to be very interesting!
then they opened the Sheppard line
The Sheppard Avenue line doesn't serve the downtown (or midtown) area, and some argued that it was a poor investment.
That reminds me of another "anti-TTC" quote from a friend of mine:
"I hate the Toronto subways. The trains run so often, you're always just missing one!!"
Mark
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
-Robert King
-Robert King
Many times the red signal light is just dimming out as the train runs by it! I guess the yellow gets minimum usage, if any, and the green gets none. Anyway they save on bulbs.
This is sad. They should have a separate right of way on the streets for the light rail.
Did anyone carry bicycles on board the trains and lightrails?
Mark
Spadina, Queensway
I got to Canal St and as i was going upstairs,i noticed R40M#4523,s
front rollsign was partly showing an oragne Q and showing an oragne S
(i guess the some T/O,s like to have some fun with the rollsign,s).
got on R142A#7620 and went to Brooklny Bridge-City Hall.as i walked
to the stairs,i saw an R62 4 train(i thought all of the lex line was
R142,R142A).i wanted to see the rear end of Chambers St,i backed off
due to the stink(i wonder if the MTA even wants to fix up that station
cause it,s long over due).as a northbound J train came into the
station,i noticed that something that looked like white paint had
dripped on all the R42 cars:
rode it to Crescent St and took a J train(R42#4676)back home to Marcy
AV.i gotting start doing some more railfanning:)
til next time
On Thursday, and maybe Friday, I'll be going on some after-school railfanning myself. Thursday, I'm meeting up with my friend John (Bombardier) and we're gonna explore the Sea Beach Line. We don't know where we are going after that but it will conclude with a trip on the 7 Exp to Flushing to get a ride on the Q17 Limited.
then in June I start this all over again, though I doubt these final exams would have much weight since I'm graduating in June...
Another note: the railfanning day was moved to Friday, where I get out even earlier: 11:52AM.
Guess they're not spending too much time on spelling in "shcool" these days 8-)
Also, they don't teach about apostrophes.
Sutphin Blvd Archer AV
JFK
that station is not even close to JFK.after i got to Jamaica Center
i got myself one of those City Ticket brochers and got on an E train:
< N 3749,3748 3674,3675 3730,3731 3739,3738, 3639,3638 S>
enjoying the Queens Blvd run,i took the E to 42nd st Times SQ.then i
walked to the BMT bway and Took an N train(R40#4375).as the train was
going to City Hall,i noticed an R46 layed up on the track that leads
to lower level City Hall and 2 R32,s.then as the train was ready to
leave City Hall,i saw R40#,s 4261&4258.4258,s side rollsigns had the
yellow West End B on it(you don,t see that often).as soon as the train
got to Court St,it was a slow run to Dekalb Av due to an R train ahead
of the N train i was on.at Lawrence St i herd over the T/O,s radio
that due to an M train with train problem,s that all train,s between
25 st and 36 st were to stop and stay.i was hoping to take an M train
back to Marcy Av,so i took the N to Dekalb and got on a local Q train
(R68#2853).across the manhattan brigde to Canal St and took a 6 train
to Brooklny Brigde-City Hall(R142A#7555)and got on a J train back to
Marcy Av(R42#4677).
til next time
You spelled "school" wrong again.
til next time
til next time
R-40, 40m, 42, 62a, 68, and 68a pics.
Some from today:
Shot of the day:
Subwayspot.com
Nice work
IINM, they did try to have the NB V switch to the local track but they realized it would cause switching nightmares so they took the slightly less painful approach of having the trains switch tracks when the depart from Queens Plaza.
Also, According to the map for a short period, the "G" line runs side-by-side after being elevated.. so the chances of a switch being there is possible.
N Bwy
Tell me how a n/b V train could possibly arrive on the local
track at QP?
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
They would shovel and pick at the ice as the train pulls in, STOP, then
resume once the doors were closing again...
QUESTION-
With all the money the MTA has saved up, DON'T THEY HAVE A JOHN DEERE SNOW BLOWER
or some other form of (NON-TRACK) SNOW REMOVAL equipment??
Poor crewguys can be working -ALL NIGHT- and still NOT manage
to clear off all the aboveground stations in the system by the AM rush...
It irks me to think how they can afford an SUV-type vehicle for the
Supervisors and whatnot to giddyup in, but yet NOT have a
sort of (powered) SNOW REMOVAL vehicle to clear off the platforms
at a brisker pace than manpower.. (CERTAINLY a Snow Blower would fit
in the doorway of an IRT train "like a wheelchair" to get from 1 station to the next)....
(the author does not suggest blowing snow OFF the platforms and down
onto the street, but rather a simple PLOW towards the side walls)
And the R160 dazzles our amusement.
Now I'm not saying the current administration is fulla crooks ...
nosiree! The DEMOCRAPS steal from the till, so do the republicans. Only difference is the democraps SPREAD IT AROUND a little, so it's all good. Republicans give it all to Halliburton and Alstom. Whoops. But intercorpse John Deere ... they do it in China too. :(
Chuck Greene
1) Snow blowers aren't cheap, so imagine at least two per station.
2) Exactly where do you direct the stream of snow being ejected from the snow blower ? Not on the street below or at the tracks. Notice on "el" platforms that snow isn't shoveled on the tracks, but are piled around light and sign posts ?
3) Then consider repair of snow blowers, storage of gasoline.
Shovels are cheaper, snow blowers are good for deep snow.
Also, Monday's snow fall changed to rain and back to snow and became slush when the temperature dropped, hence all the ice. Snow blowers don't work with ice and work poorly with very wet snow. This info is from someone who's be using one for the past 28 years !
Bill "Newkirk"
Did the MTA ever consider such a service?
1WarmAndFuzzy9
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
Funny, I've ridden the CTA and didn't spot these there... wao :o
As for Chicago climate extremes, the same stations that have heat are subject to smoldering ties in the summer; I've never seen that anywhere else.
IIRC, (at Irvington) 1 has to stand around and hop a few times in order for it to turn it's
grille up and on...
How do you START the MNR 1s?
Bill "Newkirk"
"Dual-support for Staples Corner station
Barnet County Council has approved a draft development framework for a £2.3bn regeneration scheme in Cricklewood, north London, which includes plans for a new bus station and a new mainline railway station. The Strategic Rail Authority is said to have agreed in principle to the plan to build a new Thameslink station at Staples Corner."
Note: Staples Corner is the intersection of the Edgware Road and the North Circular Road.
It is also the southern end of the M1 motorway, Britain's main north-south route. If space could be found for a very large car park, it would make an excellent park-and-ride location.
This is the first I've heard of this plan. It would probably doom the existing Hendon station, which is only a few yards north of the site, and maybe also Cricklewood station which isn't too far south. With free bus shuttles and a bit of imagination, it could also provide rail access to the large Brent Cross shopping centre nearby.
I doubt it. Hendon station's the other side of the River Brent (not the easiest thing to cross on foot) and actually located vaguely near the centre of Hendon. Cricklewood of course has a railway yard and a goods line splitting it off from the area of Staples Corner.
There may actually be a case for moving Hendon station further North. If it were relocated on the North side of Colindeep Lane, platforms could be constructed on the Northern Line (Edgware Branch) below.
It actually serves West Hendon. The middle of modern Hendon is (not coincidentally) by Hendon Central tube station, and the old village centre is slightly north of that.
"Cricklewood of course has a railway yard and a goods line splitting it off from the area of Staples Corner."
However, if the new bus/train interchange station at Staples Corner is built, there will be three stations on the Thameslink line rather close together. I wonder if all of them will survive.
"There may actually be a case for moving Hendon station further North. If it were relocated on the North side of Colindeep Lane, platforms could be constructed on the Northern Line (Edgware Branch) below."
That site would be pretty close to Colindale tube station. It's a nice idea, though it won't happen; it would be good to have an interchange station there, replacing both Hendon (Thameslink) and Colindale (Underground) stations and allowing Thameslink passengers - or at least those on the all-stations service - to join the Northern Line.
There are also proposals for rebuiding the three West Hampstead stations to make a proper interchange station there, instead of the inconvenient walk of several hundred yards along (and also across) West End Lane. However, if the Staples Corner bus/rail interchange and the West Hampstead rail interchange are both to get built, I doubt if the all-stations Thameslink service will be enough service to justify the expense. My guess would be that the planners would want to stop the Bedford-Brighton Thameslink services at both interchanges too, to give them 8 tph. That could be problematic, since Thameslink shares the express tracks with Midland Mainline, who won't want trains with two stops in the Hampstead/Hendon area slowing their long-distance services down.
It actually serves West Hendon. The middle of modern Hendon is (not coincidentally) by Hendon Central tube station, and the old village centre is slightly north of that.
Hendon station is also separated from the middle of Hendon by the M1 motorway, which is a prety fair deterrent to pedestrians.
It would be if Hendon station weren't located on a road that bridges the M1.
It's a 10 minute walk along Station Rd from the centre. I call that near enough.
However, if the new bus/train interchange station at Staples Corner is built, there will be three stations on the Thameslink line rather close together. I wonder if all of them will survive.
I see no reason for them not to. They serve (almost) entirely different markets.
That site would be pretty close to Colindale tube station. It's a nice idea, though it won't happen; it would be good to have an interchange station there, replacing both Hendon (Thameslink) and Colindale (Underground) stations
Couldn't replace Colindale. It's really quite a disconnected area. What would the residents of the Grahame Park estate do? Ramble through the Police Training Establishment?
That could be problematic, since Thameslink shares the express tracks with Midland Mainline, who won't want trains with two stops in the Hampstead/Hendon area slowing their long-distance services down.
MML should stop at West Hampstead TL. It'd be a useful transfer. I could get the Jubilee Line to Waterloo, rather than having to change at Oxford Circus.
Peace,
ANDEE
On B Division (formerly IND and BMT) there are 75 foot cars which operate in 8 car trains and 60 foot cars which operate in 10 cars trains (there are about 2 exceptions, the Franklin Ave Shuttle and the Rockaway Park Shuttle), so in B division the norm is 600 foot trains. So 600 foot equals about 185 meters.
Now on the Eastern Division of the BMT, part of B division (and the C line of the IND) trains do operate with 8 sixty foot cars. That would be 480 feet which is about 148 meters.
It's not all that straight forward, but I hope that helps........
What about at night? Don't shorter trains run on the IRT at nighttimes?
On the IRT, a 10-car train is 510', 11 car, 561' (only on the 7).
As others have said, there are two divisions. The A division runs trains of 156.5 meters of ten car trains. The B division runs two types of cars of varying length in 183.5 meter trains of either 8 or 10 cars. But some lines run only 8 car trains of the shorter type and that comes out to a total length of 146.8 meters.
Light Rail System Should Compliment Our Lifestyle
The article is interesting because the piece isn't really a call for rail transit on Oahu, but for urban planning that makes rail viable. It's good to see someone out there understands what it takes to make rail work. The author lists some the drawbacks of sprawl...homes being inconveniently far from work, shopping and entertainment...so on.
But I thought it was rather interesting that he didn't mention that Oahu is a small island and Honolulu can only afford to sprawl so far before the Pacific Ocean imposes an urban growth boundary that can't be legislated away. I wonder if it's just so obvious to Hawaiians that it doesn't need to be mentioned, but at the same time it seems like the paucity of real estate on the island would be the single most powerful argument for denser development rather than sprawl and rail transit versus freeways.
Taking light rail to a warm beach in my mind,
Mark
Isn't that the points the pro-sprawlies make though; how you're supposed to be that far away?
This is a sick psycho.
Actually, I personally know someone who used his self defense skills (along with a large group of other people) to beat the crap out of someone who was about to attack a whole group of passangers on a plane: the perp was named Richard Reid.
It takes one to know one. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Sorry, just could not resist.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
"It was rush hour and no one came to help, no passengers, no train employees," Velez said. "I was on my own."
Why am I not surprised?
Rodriguez was arraigned yesterday on two counts of first-degree assault in Queens Criminal Court, said a spokeswoman for Queens District Attorney Richard Brown. His bail was set at $5,000.
$5,000? What a jucking foke. Mommy and Daddy - assuming there is a Daddy - probably will come forth with the money and the defendant will be long gone.
"It was rush hour and no one came to help, no passengers, no train employees," Velez said. "I was on my own."
Why am I not surprised? *
What a bunch of little punks. I'm more angry at the passengers than that dude, he should've got them all.
And you wonder why crime is rampent. Bunch of pansies.
And you wonder how people really act. A few months back, I was on the southbound Q local leaving Dekalb. Seeing through the clear glass (I was in the first car.), a fight breaks out in the second car. Everyone was running AWAY from the people fighting in the second car, while the people in the first car was gawking at the fight and doing nothing. I quickly banged on the T/O cab door and told him to call police to intervene at Atlantic Ave. No one was hurt and the guy who started the whole mess walked away. But if someone took out a knife, it would be the same story.
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
The stabbing didn't happen at the RR station, it happened by the lobby of an apartment building across Austin Street.
-Robert King
Da Hui
But damn, biting random people, that's crazy.
Marv Albert could not be reached for comment.
Rim Shot!!!
YYYYYYYYYEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!
If you like sinking your teeth into something juicy, the TA has a delicious third rail for you. There's plenty to chose from. Pass the ketchup, or is it catsup ?
About the people on board who did nothing:
Maybe they didn't want top get involved because of possibly being sued by the mental defective. After all, we're a nation of lawsuits !
Bill "Newkirk"
A school.
Ouchhh, that's a zinger! I'll be here all week, folks.
A school.
Ouchhh, that's a zinger! I'll be here all week, folks.
And do you really think the MTA has heard of Happy Hour? 50 cents is a minimal increase IMO.
Peace,
ANDEE
I have always considered this a blatant double standard. Since, after all they are the same agency (MTA).
Peace,
ANDEE
It's history. You used to be able to smoke on the railroads, too. Alcohol has been increasingly restricted over the years.
And don't get me started about the losers who light up in between cars.
Adds a frisson of danger to smoking. It can kill you faster than lung disease.
HEY, I resent represent that remark.
Peace,
ANDEE
ONLY 2? Lightweight! 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Besides, they were on the lookout for riders doing other things. Back in the day the departing announcement was "While in New Jersey, please extinguish all 'smoking materials'" and once on the Thruway, "Cigarette smoking ONLY, no pipes, cigars or 'whacky terbacky'" ... always got a kick out of THAT one. (grin)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
One day, a whole bunch of workers took their beer cans and put them in an inverted pyramid shape on the floor, rolled a few pages of a newspaper into a ball, and started a game of bowling down the train's aisle. It was amusing, but the conductor made them stop!
Though at least there is a bar car. Those of us on NJT just have to bring the old brown bag!
They run exclusively on the New Haven line.
Trains:
1530
1534
1536
1338
1352
1456
1358
1462
1568
1770
1368
1574
1576
1580
1582
1586
If they are train #'s, are those just the north/east bound trains? (I ask because they are all even-numbered). There are also reverse commute trains on which the bar car is open. 6:30 from Greenwich is one. Not that I'm a regular or anything...
CG
He asked for train numbers so I gave him train numbers.
are those just the north/east bound trains?
Yes.
There are also reverse commute trains on which the bar car is open. 6:30 from Greenwich is one. Not that I'm a regular or anything...
Damn, you're right. Add these southbound trains to the list:
1571
1373
1575
1577
1579
1381
When I grow up I want to ride in and partake from a bar car.
Peace,
ANDEE
Best dinner I've *ever* had was weiner schnitzel on a PCRR run from Providence back home. Cost plenty, I've never had such a fantabulous meal SINCE ... anywhere. Champaigne too. Then came Amtrak with the McCafecar. (gags)
Peace,
ANDEE
Your everyday abused commuting worker, who is just looking for a little liquid succur on the way home won’t be bothered, I’m sure!
Smoking's next. My lungs prefer the smell of air, not tar. One morning at HPA it was so bad attempting to walk up the stairs with the wind and someone's cig smoke blowing in my face that I nearly vomited all over the 50 people pushing me up the stairs so that we could all cram into the 7 train.
You mean in addition to New Year's Eve, St. Patrick's, Halloween, and Sundays?
(For law students, it's Thursday night. Go figure.)
Mark
Maybe the public drunkenness part.
Good enough of an excuse to abolish "comfort break," LEAST the city can do (then they can RE-authorize brown-bagging) is to require EVERY "partier" to invest in a "sample pack" of DEPENDS with EVERY can o'beer. Hell ... you'd THINK with the lack of "public toilets" that some "Vendeeamerica" wouldn't ALREADY be selling "vending opportunities" in Midtown by now. :-\
YO! HEYPAUL! I'll split the receipts with ya! :)
Why? There was later one in City Hall Park that was removed when the park was renovated and now they have one in Greeley Square.
NY Post Story
Was the illegal alien a victim or not? And he was deported once already and would serve Federal jail time if he came back to this country. He prescence was clearly felt that night. If the events on the N/B W train hold true, then hey; one less thug on the streets.
Peace,
ANDEE
Is there any reasoning behind this? It looks OK when an R36 WF car shows the (7) train rollsigns, even some of the mainline cars. But, when was the last time someone saw a Redbird with drop-down windows in service on the 7 line?
May 7, 2003, to be exact (for me at least - I don't know if this was the last day they were in service - a quick search of the archives here would answer that). Click below, and then look at the entire album if you wish. (these photo were posted only recently)
This post spell checked with ieSpell
Do YOU believe in magic? XD
Those aren't drop-sash windows. The last time a car with those ran on the 7 was probably when the R-17s filled in while the World's Fair cars went through GOH.
You know what he meant, and so did I, and that's what I showed.
Then what did he mean by, "even some of the mainline cars"?
Then they're not drop-sash windows anymore.
The original poster clearly referenced three types of Redbirds: World's Fair, mainline (tilt-in), and drop-sash windows.
I don't want to put words in his mouth (text on his screen?), but I don't think so. What has run on the 7 in the past twenty years? World's Fair cars and R-36 Mainlines with tilt-in windows. What hasn't run there? Drop-sash windows.
Click on the thumbnail and see #7925 (with drop-sash (or "drop down") windows) signed up for service on the 7.
Regards,
Jimmy
1. The R32's were still unrebuilt.
2. The R32 had a destination sign reading "N"-Ditmars Blvd Astoria. The RR was change to R in 1986 and stopped running to Astoria in mid-1987.
Da Hui
At one stop, some quack asked what we were doing, and the first thing that came to my mind was "We're checking the bu stops for radiation". The person made a strange face and walked away.
WABC-TV Story here.
As one rider points out in the link, why pay $300 a month for trains that cannot function in cold weather?
It's $336.00 if you live In Waterbury
It's $331.00 if you live in Wassic.
It's $329.00 if you live in Poughkeepsie
It's $322.00 if you live in Montauk
It's $322.00 if you live in Greenpoint
You'd pay roughly the same if you drove in gas prices. I think...
No wonder the G gets so crowded! :^)
Then what's this?
I'd like to make some sort of wood housing to put these in, perhaps out as far as the marker lights (if I can find real ones)...and hang it on a wall in my family room/den. I also want to back-light it!
Question is...does anyone know how these were back-lit? What type of light was used...incandescent or fluorescent? How many bulbs? How strong (watts)?...I don't want to go melting the roll! Has anyone else done something like this? Any info would be greatly appreciated!
All that makes PERFECT sense.... but WHERE do you stick the wood piece?
There's a different text, IIRC.
It's all in the 9's.
Apparently there's been some news about building the line in segments.
Besides, if they open PART of the line, they'll be compelled to finish it rather than just seal it all up if they decide to abort the project.
Since the project was aborted once with portions of tunnel already built, it could happen again!
Many people on this forum have suggested that the project will be aborted after the 125th-63rd segment (the "stubway") is built, as that is the option that the original Major Investment Study recommended.
Newsday story here
You mean we'll still feel the flat spots? ;)
So a Babylon Local, say, could be seven or eight minutes late at every one of the 12 or 13 stops between Jamaica and Babylon, but still get into Babylon "on time."
History of such entrances?
D: Peak direction express on West End Line during middays. Local nights and weekends.
W: West End Local middays.
M: Local service with R to 95th Street, middays.
The Brighton line sounds good. The (Q), being a shorter run, should indeed be the local, with the B express.
That said:
D: The West End Line has never had scheduled express service, and there's a reason: a good piece of the riding is at the local stops.
W: Why have W service come into Brooklyn middays when it doesn't come into Brooklyn at other times? Also, are two midday West End services really necessary?
M. Are two southern Fourth Avenue services necessary? Take a look at a midday R train some time.
David
It will be a long wait for those boarding at Cortlandt, Whitehall, and Rector for a change at DeKalb with the N train gone. You will be better off riding the IRT. Even coming home in the PM peak, whether you choose the M on Broad or the R on Church, you could get hit for a 10 minute wait.
I'd rather see the W run though with the R instead of the M. Or the J/Z run through with the M instead of the R.
David
The pick that goes into effect on Feb 22 was finished on either the 18 or 19 of December, 2003.
FWIW, the schedules were finalized somewhere in early to mid November.
This works out to a two phase operation. Phase 1: Sea Beach-Bway; Brigthon 6th Ave and West End-Downtown. Phase 2: Brighton-Bway; West End-6th Ave and 4th Ave-Downtown. This provides the following a downtown<-->midtown cross platform transfer at Pacific and a midtown-->downtown cross platform transfer at DeKalb for Brighton riders. All the services operate at 10 tph, so they can operate off a single clock.
There are two problems with this scenerio. First, the M-West End Local operates at only 6 tph. This will provide non-uniform headways along 4th Ave which will result in uneven loading and switching conflicts. Second, Astoria requires more than 10 tph and less than 20 tph.
There are two Astoria choices: add an additional short runs to accomodate Astoria riders or extend some of the trains that will terminate at 57th St to Astoria. Surveys showed that very few Astoria riders are bound for downtown. Therefore the TA decided to provide additional service that went downtown, rather than extending some of the Brighton-Bway expresses from 57th to Astoria.
Increase C train service and extend to Lefferts.
Every other A will terminate at Howard Beach, with the others going to Far Rockaway.
Does the TA have any plan to change A service?
This is simply false!!! Look at the A train schedule posted on www.mta.info. Lefferts and Far Rockaway trains are about 50/50 split all day long. Here are some weekday specifices:
Between 5:24am and 7:23am, northbound:
9 trains leave Lefferts
10 trains leave Far Rockaway
Between 8:22am and 10:39am, northbound:
12 trains leave Lefferts
9 trains leave Far Rockaway
Between 3:51pm and
This is simply false!!! Look at the A train schedule posted on www.mta.info. Lefferts and Far Rockaway trains are about 50/50 split all day long. Here are some weekday specifices:
Between 5:24am and 7:23am, northbound:
9 trains leave Lefferts
10 trains leave Far Rockaway
Between 8:22am and 10:39am, northbound:
12 trains leave Lefferts
9 trains leave Far Rockaway
Between 3:51pm and 6:51pm, northbound:
14 trains leave Lefferts
12 trains leave Far Rockaway
Southbound stats are similar. Even if you add the few Rockaway Park trains, it isn't a 2:1 difference.
There isn't enough rolling stock to implement all of the service expansions you're talking about.
By the end of Jan., the MTA will be announcing four options for a connection between JFK and Lower Manhattan. I wouldn't be surprised if connecting the AirTrain to the A line is one of those options, and at that time we might also get a glimpse of potential service pattern changes on the C.
Until next time,
Mike
Or, am I mistaken about this? Thank you in advance.
The Q is all R68/68A, while the N will have all but 4 trainsets that are R68/68a. The 4 trainsets will be strictly R40 slants.
So the 6th Ave side is lighter than the Broadway side, but the timers are more restrictive on the 6th Ave side. What is really going on here?
I'm curious about how the station functioned when it was open. Was there a ticket office, or did tickets have to be purchased on the train, like at Inwood? How was the lighting? Was it a dangerous place to be at night? Did trains that didn't stop at Woodhaven zoom by at 50 MPH like they do now, or did they go by more slowly?
In short, I'm just trying to get a feel for what it was like.
The underground Woodhaven station looked like a big subway station, with wide concrete platforms, stairs, and squarish columns and walls covered in large square white tile, and plain black on white signage.
See also Bob Andersen's, Tom Scannello's, and Kevin Walsh's sites for photos of the above ground Woodhaven Junction area close in time to the present.
I would like to receive the pics.
My e-mail address is Mitchell.Pak@aig.com.
Thanks a lot for the tips.
I remember the ticket office on the outbound side. About five minutes before train time, the MP54 headlight would GRADUALLY glow and light up the whole tunnel. Eventually it was a blinding light until them MP54 was right there with brakes squeeling. It was fun watching the MP54 come in and act like a subway train. You'd get in, sit by an open window, and with a partition wall to the opposing track, you could just about reach out and touch it. They would shut the lights out by the time it reached the platforms at Jamaica.
It was 1976, by which time a cop hung around for the one daily train in either direction, was a footnote in the timetable (W - no time), and a small unnamed dot on the strip map on the front of the City Zone Timetable. They really wanted to get rid of it. They were less ruthless in getting rid of Springfield Gardens and Elmhurst than that. The dot on the map remained until 1979. Looking at my 5/24/76 Form 10 schedule, when branch was a footnote for every train in that schedule, it was a Far Rockaway train inbound arriving Flatbush at 720a, and a West Hempstead train departing Flatbush at 425p. Both those trains still run pretty close to that today.
The Woodhaven area has regentrified, but I think it would still be a security risk to open it. Ozone Park and the A train is walking distance even if Jamaica and Woodhaven are too. I wouldn't go down there.
I, too, remember the Elmhurst LIRR station. I was last on it, mid to late March, 1978. I have an old Hagstrom atlas that shows Woodhaven and Elmhurst and the abandoned stations of the LIRR LIC-Montauk Branch, and I intend to keep it.
Wait a minute. Woodhaven is now a security risk? It's a fairly busy Queens neighborhood, true. And Atlantic Avenue in that section IS more of a highway than a boulevard. But I don't think you could call the area a risky one. Yhe station as it exists is a lonely dark place. However, if it were to be re-opened there would be improvements made. Better lighting, improved entry portals and signage, increased police presence and improvements to the local streets and sidewalks.
Tell you what: if that sports arena gets built it could be a factor in any opening of service to the neighborhood. I think Woodhaven is far enough from downtown Brooklyn to warrent having trains stop there. For other reasons besides the sports complex. The only other direct rail service from the area even close to Flatbush Terminal is the A train to the C train to Lafayette, and it's not only a local stop but a bit of a hike from there. With CityTicket fares, and direct entry to the arena ala Madison Square Garden, it could work.
Look, it's time this city puts a new emphasis on those early trolley suburb neighborhoods, maybe now served by subway but still having commuter rail service (or at least the possibility of service), again. Like Woodhaven and Fordham, Richmond Hill, even Hollis and St. Albans and maybe even Far Rockaway. IMO these areas will become more important to the city. The commuter train service will be the big attraction here. Direct conduits to the major nodes. Gotta be some "real estate interests" pondering these questions even as we discuss them here, I reckon.
Woodhaven station was a security risk - that's why the customers disappeared and they closed it.
Neighborhoods can and do change. Conditions change. And it makes no sense to be "a'scaredy-cat" about having students in the area. I refuse to believe that the utility of the station design as it is and how it can be has ended. New York has lived with tunnel stations for over a hundred years. What would be so different about underground Woodhaven? Maybe you aren't considering the effects of modern lighting and improved circulation.
I don't think sodium vapor lights in the station would make it any safer. It will still see little use and the LIRR will simply not stop all it's local trains there. The line doesn't even go to Manhattan. ENY is really above ground with the sides open, and is bad enough. Nostrand Av is an el, and still not a picnic. Tearing up the sidewalk to let in more light won't happen.
Oh yeah. I been down there once or twice. When it was open it was like, a Twilight Zone train station. The tunnel sections at both ends of E.N.Y. is kind of similar but not really close since it's still in the open air, albiet at street level (...which gives it a different sort of weird ambiance but that's another story). In the semi-abandoned state you described I could see someone thinking to themselves, "this is gonna be my last train ride...". Not in the sense of crime but more to the effect of uh, heading for the pearly gates. I can easily understand that feeling.
It is an oddball design for a NYC in-town commuter rail station. This makes we want to get access to newspaper accounts of the planning and construction of Woodhaven, maybe to see any references on what the thinking was concerning how the neighborhoods' future was envisioned. It was re-built in the 20s', I think so anyway. At that time and place I'm sure the pattern of the streets standard grid indicated that it was expected that the Brooklyn experience would continue extending eastward through Queens. At least, that could be one reason why Woodhaven was built in a subway station design. Although I can see that the design of the train line itself probably would allow no other station design but a standard tunnel station. Still, the very act of putting the line in a tunnel itself is a telling indicator of the expected urbanization.
I sure do wish I could have seen it when it had full service. I'm all for getting the station reopened. Paradoxically, it's my favorite subway station.
But then again Flatbush Avenue also looked weird with the MP54's sharing the same platforms with the low/high V's and redbirds of the uptown IRT locals.
And East NY can give one the creeps at both ends of the platforms where it's hard to tell where the station ends and the tunnel begins.
Oh, the Flatbush Branch is a great branch!!
Thanks!
Tom
34th st/Broadway/BMT (N, R, Q, W platforms, either side). Walk to the center and you should see a pair of green objects facing the tracks. It is above your head, so look out. Wave your hand at one of the several reflectors and a soothing musical sound playing to a tropical forest or wildlife will cool your senses.
Atlantic Ave is also nice because the station passageway, especially the IRT area, is expanded with new elevators opening soon.
Hoyt-Schermerhorn. Times Square, especially the ramps between the A/C/E/7 and the other lines. The Borough Hall maze and IRT terra cotta. The small humorous metal artwork scattered around the 14th Street/8th Avenue platforms.
--The deep tunnel stations on the #1 (168th, 181st)
--Roosevelt Island
--Stillwell Ave.
--New WTC PATH
--I'll second on Chambers St. and Broadway Junction
Smith and 9th on the F and G - Postcard views of lower Manhattan, the Statue of Liberty and downtown Brooklyn.
Koi
Koi
Also if riding the 7, stop at Willets Point-Shea Stadium. You may get to a Redbird or few in Corona Yard, and visit Shea Stadium, home of the Mets and many historic rock concerts.
Now, if I may, a few more quick questions:
At about noon on a weekday, in which direction does the J run express between Myrtle and Marcy?
Similarly, at about 4 pm on a weekday, in which direction does the D run express between Tremont and 145?
Is there any potential safety problem with:
Taking the A from Broadway-ENY to Hoyt-Schermerhorn at about 12:45 pm on a weekday? (in some of the previous threads about safety, it seemed like the areas along the A west of downtown Brooklyn were a problem)
Taking the 4 to 161st, and then the D back to Midtown at about 4 pm on a weekday?
Sorry to sound like such a tourist, but I guess that's what I am...OK, a railfan/tourist, but a tourist nonetheless. In the future, if anyone has similar questions about the L or the T, I'll be happy to reciprocate...
Manhattan-bound. IINM, the J runs express Manhattan-bound until about 1:30. It starts up again Queens-bound at random...
Similarly, at about 4 pm on a weekday, in which direction does the D run express between Tremont and 145?
Neither. Uptown express service doesn't start til about 4:20-4:30.
Is there any potential safety problem with:
Taking the A from Broadway-ENY to Hoyt-Schermerhorn at about 12:45 pm on a weekday? (in some of the previous threads about safety, it seemed like the areas along the A west of downtown Brooklyn were a problem)
Nope.
Taking the 4 to 161st, and then the D back to Midtown at about 4 pm on a weekday?
Nope.
Transportation omitted from President's speech
Discussing an array of issues facing the U.S. in his State of the Union Address Tuesday, President Bush asserted that the nation has grown stronger and more prosperous under his leadership. However, transportation was not mentioned in any capacity during the speech.
With the Transportation Equity Act for the 21st Century (TEA 21) set to expire on Feb. 29, support for the act from the Bush Administration and Congress is a key issue for public transportation providers. TEA 21 authorizes federal funds for bus and rail transit projects, infrastructure development and highway safety programs.
Following the address, Bill Millar, president of the American Public Transportation Association (APTA) released a statement commenting on the President’s omission of public transportation. “It is deeply disappointing that President Bush did not include surface transportation among his top initiatives for 2004,” he said.
The statement also maintains that TEA 21 should be one of the top legislative priorities this year. Said Millar, "[APTA] urges the President to increase transportation funding in his proposed FY 2005 Budget and to support the $375 billion funding level for TEA 21 proposed by the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee. Each $1 billion in funding would create 1.7 million jobs.”
Interesting. The motorist will be subsidizing our transit. This is good news afterall.
And in NYS, there is the Petroleum Business Tax along the same lines.
Wouldn't spending on domestic transportation take away from the the budget to train middle managers in Iraq?
Here's how to say nuclear:
NU-CLE-AR
Not
NU-CU-LAR
Discuss.
Lots of big stuff happening this year -- for the future as well as the past. If it isn't bad (ie. technology projects fail, no SAS funding) it could be really, really good.
Leastwise that is what I thought somebody might have said somewhere around here.
: ) Elias
After the isolated routes (7 and L) finish testing, the next step is obviously to see what happens when you introduce a merge into the equation. I would make the M Queens portion,and J the next lines to be tested, because you have a single merge in Brooklyn and you can test that. Then you can start dealing with more complicated stuff.
My question is also prompted by the fact that the rap group, Cypress Hill, took its name from the Brooklyn neighborhood of the same name.
The Harlem and Hudson lines go through areas that tend to be a bit colder and snowier than most LIRR or NJT territory.
Hey, let's not forget the good ol' Port Jervis Line. I wonder how the PJL did schedule-wise with all the cold weather and snow. Anyone have any ideas?
Regards,
Jimmy
The recent snowfall coupled with the frigid weather produced a very dry powdery snow accumulation. Fine snow and traction motors and other under car body electrical goodies don't mix.
Funny, the LIRR which usually suffers the same didn't as bad as Metro North. maybe because of 160 plus M-7's replacing older M-1's ?
Bill "Newkirk"
The M-3's fan forced air intakes are located on the side of the car where a window should be. The air duct in the interior takes the place of one seat.
Bill "Newkirk"
Regards,
Jimmy
Regards,
Jimmy
I also saw one amazing feat of deft train control. I got on a southbound local at Hartdale at 5:45 PM. A behind-schedule southbound express from Southeast (alias Brewster North) passes us at 45+ mph on the southbound track (note that this is in the height of the northbound rush hour). Three minutes later, as we pull into Scarsdale, a northbound express passes us at 45 mph+ on the northbound track!!!
It's only the BEGINNING of what you'll find to be a wonderful journey. Go for it! You WON'T be disappointed. :)
So working your way to another cab ride, EH, bro? Heh.
I find your interest INTERESTING, and while I'm not so deep on locos myself (though I've cab-ridden and OPERATED a few) I can understand that often it's "as good as it gets" compared to having a subway to jump on and giggle with. I've had to spot freights and buddies in the cab as a pathetic substitute for actually OPERATING arnines and such. Amusingly though, a LOT of folks here are into the same for probably similar reasons, and though passenger "freight" (I mean, 'let's call a goose a goose,' they're STILL being 'hauled') is cool and all, it's really a substitute for the subways. Besides, locomotives are generally considered "OT" here, but there's lots of others here who are REALLY into it.
Hope you've gotten off to a good start on the googling ... and just a reminder, if you haven't done BVE yet, you might find THAT to be some fun too - at least there's subways. AND REDBIRDS! :)
Getting the DSG is a good way to start. The earlier edition carried diesel locomotives from the "early" days. The latter ones only carries the recent models.
Big Boys: One in Scranton (Steamtown) stuffed & mounted :-(
But if you like steam, they have several (you ca ride) AND you can take a tour of their shops & see them being worked on.
Thanks.
LOL
Just letting you know.....those of you who care.
"THIS IS BLEEKER STREET- TRANSFER IS AVALIBLE TO THE B,D,F,Q TRAINS
I SAID THAT THE B AND D DONT RUN HERE AND THE Q IS NOW ON BWAY
WHOA! What cars were those?
Haven't heard that in a while!
I SAID THAT THE B AND D DONT RUN HERE AND THE Q IS NOW ON BWAY
The R142A's no longer have those announcements.
E trains were being sent to Whitehall. I don't know about the V but at least one of them was sent to the IND Crosstown to run as 8-car G trains to Smith-9 Sts. I got to ride the 8-car G, which was quite interesting. Some Manhattanbound F trains were rerouted to the Crosstown as well. My friend also told me that they actually sent an A TRAIN up the Crosstown as well, but he told me that it had F train signs. I asked him if it was a R44 (asked if the seats on the sides had windows) and he said yes.
I got to school at 9:00AM (20 mins late) but the school still let me in the building, probably because they somehow got word of what had happened.
I knew something was up when we were going REALLY slow through 36 St bypass and on the entry to Queens Plaza.
The walk down Jackson Av to get from Queens Plaza to Court Sq was also fun; my ears and neck felt like they were frozen.
Anybody else get caught up in this by any chance?
Do you see any way that A trains (running on the blue tracks) can get to the Crosstown line (running on the light green tracks)?
That's my guess.
If I had only been there to see it... =\
No. If I meant "switch at Hoyt St." I would have written that. I wrote:
"Why couldn't they just follow the G route after Jay St? Turn at Smith St. then Crosstown to Court Sq. Repeat. Then NB run light on F to Jay St. to switch back to 8 Ave. line there or at W4 St."
To use your colors, switch from blue to orange at Jay St., turn at Smith St., and use light green NB.
http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/track/hoytberg.gif
(A gap train -> F service gap)
The conductor was actually fantastic, he made very detailed announcements giving people alternate routes to get to the places they'd be trying to get to if the train was on its regular "E" route. I wish all conductors had as much pride in their job as this guy did.
There didn't seem to be big delays on 6th avenue, although the train I got on was pretty packed. At Roosevelt Island there wasn't room for any more passengers.
Isn't it a free transfer?
OH. Did I forget to mention that Tompkinsville is not so nice a neighborhood?
Correct.
>>>>Isn't getting off at Tompkinsville the way to get a totally free ride on the SIRT from Tottenville?<<<<
Correct again. The problem with Tompkinsville is the neighborhood. During the day, all the kids get off at that station and walk. I wouldn't want to get on that station at night.
Where do you expect to find the money to build an underwater tunnel between lower Manhattan and Staten Island?
Maybe in our Great, Great, Great, Great grandchildren's lifetime. Certainly not in ours.
Re: SAS idea
Mark
It probably would make more sense to send the E to Staten Island, as you could avoid the platform shaving and maybe get away with less new equipment. You would still need the new tunnel, and a little more digging in lower Manhattan.
You could also use an offshoot from the Montague St tunnel and send the B Division to Staten Island as an even lower cost alternative, because there would be no digging in lower Manhattan.
Anyway, it is all a dream, and it keeps us subtalkers going.
1. The 1/9 line requires more service than the IRT, so the SIRT would have excessive service. One way to combat that is to terminate alternate trains at St. George.
2. The underwater tunnel needed to connect both lines would be much longer than any other coming into Manhattan, thus being very expensive to construct. SI has a maximum population of 400,000 and less than 50,000 use the SIRT anyway. The cost-benifit analysis doesn't justify the expenditure.
3. Most SI residents cherish their surburban lifestlye, and the subway would change that dramatically. Many caucasian residents will object to the "riff-raff" (translation: minority) element which would move into SI with direct subway service.
4. Currently, it's free to travel via the SIRT south of St. George. To continue this practice after subway conversion would discriminate against other outer-boro subway riders who don't travel inter-boro.
5. The SIRT is still subject to FRA regulations, making it incompatible with current subway lines. This would have to be changed.
I think this is the real reason — all the others would be easily surmountable if the idea made any economic sense.
Friday I only have a few hours. I'll be coming from the airport (with luggage) and my destination is the corner of Forbes and Craig in Oakland. I was hoping to ride at least one of the inclines. If I only have time for one, which one should it be? It seems like the Duquesne is easier to reach from the airport; how hard is it to get to the Monongahela? How would I get to Oakland from either one? And about how long would the entire trip from the airport to Oakland take, with this detour? My time is short and I can't be late.
Saturday night my schedule is more flexible, but I don't know what transit schedules are like. I'll be coming from and returning to Squirrel Hill. I'm open to anything interesting.
And how do fares and transfers work? The Port Authority website is currently down.
My schedule shows a phone number for PAT customer service as ???(area code)-442-2000 . Why don't you give them a call?
I'd love to go out there and ride the new rebuilt Overbrook line when it opens sometime this year.
Chuck Greene
Because it's kind of difficult to look at maps over the phone.
The website was back up today, but I must say that it is the most poorly designed website I have ever seen, in every possible way.
Thanks for the suggestions. I'll figure out where I'm going during the flight. I'm hoping to hit both inclines on Friday, if I get in early enough, and maybe the light rail Saturday night.
Any idea how often the inclines run? I couldn't find a schedule anywhere, aside from basic hours of operation.
Have a great time and a good ride on the 42S.
Chuck Greene
There was at least two days last week that there were no R32's runing on the R.
Robert
By a 'poor' line I mean a line where I don't really care about having a railfan window. Two things make it poor:
a) Its local. The whole way.
b) Its all subway, and there's nothing to see.
I'd much rather have an R-32 on, say, the West End (hasn't happened since before I was born) or the Canarsie (impossible, but I can dream).
edk(2 to the eighth power, or four to the fourth power, depending upon your preference)
Regards,
Jimmy
Regards,
Jimmy
Regards,
Jimmy
I can see PCMIA flash memory cards behaving as disk drives, or the new USB dongles. Actually, I would use the USB dongles, as the interface is much sturdier than the billion tiny pin PCMCIA!
I would try to keep the chip pulling to the absolute minimum! How many cycles before some fumble fingers bends/shorts those tiny pins!
However, he's yet to chime in on this thread.
Considering the possible move, can anyone direct to any sites relating to rail transit in the Tampa area. Any info(even stuff about that Florida high speed w/e will be good). Anything about existing track that is not used, abandonned track, anything.
All info appreciated. Thanks in advanced.
http://www.floridahighspeedrail.org/
http://www.floridabullettrain.com/
http://www.cfrail.com/related_index.asp
http://www.house.gov/mica/ComRail.htm (Mica is a supporter of rail...to bad the "free" commuter rail system destined for O-town is now going to Miami). http://tampabay.bizjournals.com/tampabay/stories/2003/02/10/daily35.html
shows the funding that was earmarked but had to be moved elsewhere.
The original Orlando LRT that had about $400mil spent on it, and not a single track was laid, also should've been in operation by now without any stupid 20/20 vote:
http://sustainable.state.fl.us/fdi/fscc/news/local/rail.htm
http://www.davidpinero.com/rail/hartrail.cfm
http://www.blueheronmedia.com/tampa_rail_web/about_tampa_rail/about_tampa_rail.htm
http://www.fgcrrm.org/
Everyone hates I-4: http://www.ihatei4.com/mobility2020.html
I consider Orlando to be part of the same area which is where I recently lived, and it's only a good 90min drive on the one out of 4 times I-4 will let you go in peace.
ALso note all proposals are nothing new and have been funded and studied off and on for over 10 years now. If it wasn't for Mayor Grecco, I'd doubt we'd even have a trolley now.
http://www.tecolinestreetcar.org/
Railroads and air conditioning, that is...
Now if only they would invent a decent heater around here.
In addition to bringing people to Florida, I would have to guess that railroads made it possible to ship Florida oranges and other crops to the rest of the country, which really made commercial farming in Florida economically viable.
Mark
The Seminoles, Calusa, and other names that escaped me are always interesting too. There's been wars with them right up to the year before the Civil War. So when they teach in history no one remembered what wars were like between the "civil war" and the revolution, they must've left those three wars out between the '40's and '60's.
A park dedicated to the whole thing has just been completed on the TECO trolley line:
http://www.sptimes.com/2002/07/19/Citytimes/A_park_for_the_city.shtml
Very nice. Right next to it, it has just been announced last week that they will build a Tampa History Center.
They can't stop building around these tracks, I don't believe there's any space left at all. They really need to do the expansions, and quick.
Florida has an interesting history alright. I've heard that the Seminole are the only tribe that has never signed a peace treaty with the U.S. government. That new park in the news article sounds interesting.
It's also goo to hear they can't stop building around the TECO tracks. That's just what rail is supposed to do, foster investment ad development. I sure hope they expand the system like you suggest to spread the success.
Mark
3 of my church street station pics. I really like that thing too. I'm surprised there isn't many sites on it. Lou Pearlman just bought that station though. He's the boyband guy, Nsync and Backstreet. That's where all of them are from anyway. They're also going to build a giant condo/other stuff tower right there also, or mabye it was 2 of them. A LOT of activity round here.
I'm looking for another website I saw on a billboard today. More towers of condos' on the Tampa end, should be touching the TECO line also. I think this is the one who also made an agreement to provide a bus bay. It was something like thisisnotsuburbia.com or something simliar. On Kennedy Ave.
I'm trying my best of getting pics of these spaces before they're built. Proof of before and after. HOpefully next week i won't be bringing a camera with dead batteries like I did today. I've always liked doing before and after photos.
Unfortunatly the Sentinal now does the sleazy thing of making old articles only available if you pay a fee. So all I got to show you is a random headline:
CHURCH STREET DEVELOPERS OWE TAXES FOR '01, '02 ; CITY OFFICIALS SAID THEY DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT THE DEBTS OF LOU PEARLMAN AND ROBERT KLING UNTIL LAST WEEK.:[FINAL Edition]
That says he owns it to me :)
Also, the Amtrak service to Miami, is it usually on time? What kind of equipment they run on those trains?
CSX depends on where you're at. Southeast and due east of tampa is "Bone Valley". Lot of mining ops, lots of long trains. Citrus too, old timey industry is king here. If you drive around the country roads, there's steel rails everywhere like veins of the state.
I'm at a terminating end around Clearwater, so I get maybe 4 trains a day, and it street runs though downtown(Amtrak went here in teh 70's). It used to be the Seaboard Atlantic Railline I believe and the Orange Belt previous. Lots of history still. There's street running in D/T tampa too, not sure the times. MANY hotels, and buildings in the University of Tampa are actually old buildings built by Henry Plant himself. Unless they pave sometime soon, there's a bridge next to Channelside which has some rail exposed, the rail is held in place with about 5 strips of wood. Very old. Things like that too if you find em. Lots of parking lots are bordered by old scrap rail.
There's also a yahoo group for Florida Rails. My bookmarks are gone, but when I check it, there's someone posting movements and all that.
There's still stuff going on. 50 metric tons of history on the rails, and a bright future(bigger TECO, intercity high-speed, commuter, and LRT). I think we're at the beginning point after the decline of cities(anti-suburbianization i call it). But then, most cities in america is getting there too.
With all these railfanning opportunities, I think moving down to Tampa may not be too bad. Plus the street running, I think I'd be in heaven.
You're definitely gonna miss the passenger transit rail lines though. On the other hand, it's got a decent bus service coverage. Some bus lines run 7 days a week, there are a series of long express routes, and many local routes. Good transfers and something like a metrocard for fare deals. The downtown has some interesting aspects to it. That mixture of old South town streets intersperced with tall (I'm hesitant to call them skyscrapers) buildings. You can walk through most parts of city, sidewalk wise. Get to know the buses and it does let you explore on foot.
And Ybor City is a psuedo Greenwich Village meets (old) Times Square kind of place...good spot for girl watching. Actually seems a little more raucous than the real items though. And the cops there crack me up. When I was there you didn't see any in the mid sections of the blocks, like good ol' New York cops do, swingin' their billyclubs striding dwon the street. Nagh, these jokers stayed at the street corners, mainly. I found that funny.
The future could bring more rail transit to the city. But at least you can always try to make it over to Miami and check out the els there. I don't know though...the move could be hard to take for you. Florida is both inviting and annoying at times. But it does have its good points. Tampa has some great malls. City type malls. One I went to on, I think it's called Westshore Blvd, had a great kiosk set up in the mall with most of the bus line schedules. And people will probably seem more polite to you, not being in the New York state of mind. So it's gonna be a toss up, I think. Good luck with all of it.
One Serious Note: You gonna find it REAL DIFFICULT to find any good bakery items, like simple rolls or bagels. They don't like anything with their morning coffee, it seems, that doesn't come wrapped in plastic, or real sweet and gooey. I hated that aspect of Florida. And there's nothing you can do about THAT. I won't even get into the paucity of friggin' delicatessens...
Maybe just one bridge, or a tunnel! lol.
"And Ybor City is a psuedo Greenwich Village meets (old) Times Square kind of place...good spot for girl watching."
I'll defiantely keep that in mind.
They don't even have doh'! nuts!? Oh God, Oh God, Oh God! I'm really gonna miss Let There Be Bagels. Please atleast tell me that Beef Jerky is cheap and plentiful down there!
I'm really gonna miss LI and NYC. Lots of variation here. Culture, landscape, everything. Hopefully I'll be able to justify that with the CSX street running.
Do you know of any good areas to live? My mom was told Clearwater is a pretty good area(that's right Jeff W, look out, I'm commin for ya!) My mom even looked out of town, like Sarasota.
Hey now, i'm just on a layover right now. This place is too urbanized for my blood :) I used to live north of sarasota too. Take away the snowbirds and it's good.
But I'm digging this bus system. I haven't lived in a place with halfway decent transit in a while. So if you have all day, it works out, very nicely.
And when all else fails, There's 3 downtowns busable from each other, and a separate financial districk(Westshore). And if you're nuts like myself, you can include Orlando in with that, to make it four real downtowns. Time it takes to get from Orlando to Tampa is less than some peoples commutes in major cities(Miami, LA, my old travels in philly). Too bad anybody who works in HR automatically doesn't have the IQ to process that. :(
*Good transfers and something like a metrocard for fare deals*
The transfer "centers" definately have the schedules set right. the connections at malls and stuff seem to have no wait, unless traffic happens. My only problem is two separate agencies/farecards and of course cross country exp buses another fare.
*And Ybor City is a psuedo Greenwich Village meets (old) Times Square kind of place*
I'm hoping mayor Iorio get's off her ass and approves the Civita's Central village area. Then you won't have that ghetto between the downtown and ybor. Right now that trolley is like a safe haven crossing the jungle.
Cops swinging their billy clubs are probably more of a northern thing. On a good note though, in the good southern tradition of trigger happiness, some of the real scum never make it through the system if you know what i mean. ;)
The kiosk at a mall called Westshore Plaza is great. I have every schedule in Hartline now from that, plus a city transit map.
I definately think we're at a sucky middle ground though. After the golden age of transit, and before everyone really panicks for alternatives(and tampa seems to realize that more than orlando does).
That's one of the best arguments for sound urban planning and dense mixed-use development in the cities. It revives the cities of course, but it also keeps the countryside rural so those country roads don't get surrounded by strip malls.
Mark
My advice: if you are from here, find a way to stay here, if you've got skills. Fianance companies move operations to Florida so they can pay people less. India is next. Then, when you are in Tampa, how will you get your next job?
And there's a very hilarious columnist for the Orlando Sentinal that says, when they calcuate annual wages for Central Florida, they include the cents! Plus transporation costs in the tampa bay area are amoung the highest in the nation. THough the bus passes are only 40 bucks a month, if only ppl would use them. What an obvious disparity with an obvious solution.
Hey, we heard from a friend that Clearwater is mostly baptist bible-thumper territory, is it true? Also, Clearwater, my mom was told, is accesible by only one bridge, or Tampa is accesible by only one bridge from Clearwater and that it is frequently backed up. True? All in all, is there any place for a Jewish family(reform) to move. My mom says she doesn't really want to drive too far(I'm trying to convince her to take the bus).
There's lots of baptist in the south, i like 'em, but they have the southern philosphy, so that may explain my view. Clearwater itself has most of it's downtown owned by some "religion" called Scientology. Actually the area is a big magnet for it. I don't know anything about it, there's a lot that hates this cult. Big stars seem to come around and belong to it like tom cruise and all of them. I haven't a clue what the deal is. They go ttheir own bus system though, haha. :)
Now Clearwater BEACH is only accessable by one bridge from the "mainland" and another one from another key ot the south. Clearwater itself is just another city in Pinellas county, north of st. pete and largo, south of...tarpon springs. Not sure what the closest adjacent city is.
*Tampa is accesible by only one bridge from Clearwater and that it is frequently backed up.*
I understand all sunbelt cities have MONUMENTAL traffic. No matter how much I see them, i can't comprehend the traffic. It's not as bad here as newer cities, like Orlando, or possibly even miami though. The snowbirds and old people suck, but unlike orlando's 16 hour traffic congestion, least Tampa's follow normal business rush hour. Now take a look at a map or bus schedules. Clearwater does have a bridge/causeway. To the south there's another, that's I-275, that's 8 lanes, and hopefully a commuter or highspeed rail bridge will be with it. That sucker bucks up, but so's all of I-275. There's another one way south to St. Pete, Gandy(us-92). We got our bases covered. All three have commuter bus service. None stop from tampa to whereever they end here. Probably the best service in the bay. Only done two of them, and they make me wish i worked downtown. I haven't had the bridge up here back up yet. THe street on both sides have problems though, but the bridge itself, is 100% pakced, but everyones at full speeds, no brake tapping yet. But we're already all built up, so i don't anticipate any more traffic coming over.
Without killing the server with my ranting post, for business day work the commuter bus system is very nice. Even if you park and ride only. Its the regular service buses that don't see the highest income earners, but that doesn't stop me, it's far from ghettofied to me. But I would love to commute on them accross the bay(you gotta be nuts to drive in that traffic and pay for gas!).
I need a nap after that.
Now, where are the Greyhound stops. Do they go all the way in to St Pete, or do they end in Tampa like Amtrak does?
But the greyhound station in clearwater is a good place, along with those amtrak bus stops. I'm not sure if there's any other public intercity lines around here, with all the millions of buses we have around here.
As far as burning crosses go, this ain't central PA. :)
Yeah, to the extend the "deep south" is left at all, it is in backwaters no one moves to. FLA, GA, NC, and VA are really a new region now, with people from everywhere. I don't know about SC.
Thanks for the info!
Even so, there is much less unemoployment in Tampa, and indeed most places in the Sunbelt, than in New York.
(Even so, there is much less unemoployment in Tampa, and indeed most places in the Sunbelt, than in New York.)
And you can work at any Wallmart you want.
New York City has trouble generating low-wage, low skill jobs for its low-skill, bad work habit population. That's why its employment-population ratio is so low, the city's main economic problem.
Blame who you want, but when a job becomes routine, so just about anyone can do it, it moves out of New York City as fast as it can. And too many people shop in the suburbs, where the less well off cannot afford to live. That's what the unemployment rate out in the 'burbs is so low -- down below 3 percent in the late 1990s, still low today.
On the other hand, New York City is awesome at generating dynamic new high-wage, high-skill jobs. So if you are prepared to ride out the cycle, and that's the kind of job you want, you'll have to be here (or somewhere like here), like it or not.
Upstate New York has the opposite problem. It's employment is at an all time high and its unemployment is below the national average. Then why are so young people leaving?
The city seems to do whatever it can to discourage low-wage, low-skill employers like Wal-Mart, through means such as absurd zoning restrictions. It seems to me as if the administration almost prefers that people *not* work at these McJobs simply because they tend to pay poorly. What that attitude overlooks is the fact that a low-paid McJob is better than no job at all, especially now with restrictions on welfare.
Yes there is that attitude among some typical New York liberals. That someone working in a working class job not only is no better off than someone on welfare or panhandling, they are also entitled to no more respect. New York conservatives have that attitude also. Nowhere else are the working poor treated with such contempt, so the attitude filters down.
Meanwhile, while fighting against on the books "McJobs" no other places is more tolerant of "off the books" jobs that pay less than the minimum wage (if the paycheck even arrives), and for which the employer does not contribute to worker's comp, unemployment insurance, social security, etc. Many NYC welfare recipients are simply the laid off who were not covered by unemployment insurance, as a result of this white collar fraud.
Go figure.
Just by eyeballing the car, I figured that when the train is filled, a single car would hold 70-100 people. However, this is just a guess, and I would be interested in knowing the actual number, based either upon the intended capacity of the design, or based upon ridership measurements made by the MTA. Does anybody know?
Da Hui
These figures are based on allotting a certain number of square feet per passenger (around 4.1 sq ft) and dividing this number into the total floor area. This figure should permit room for passengers to navigate so that crowding does not interfere with loading and unloading.
There is a problem with this concept. Standees will congregate where there are poles, bars or straps to anchor them. The car design should insure that this furniture is not placed in a position that interferes with ingress and egress. Such design practices have not been practiced since the design of the BRT standards in 1913. The result is that modern cars are more overcrowded with the same passenger density.
Do designers conduct practical tests to determine what the non-uniform distribution of passengers will be, or do they just use the theoretical measure that assumes unifrom distribution?
The 1914 Standards missed out on ADA because of its 3-2 seating. The doors were wide enough. The would have met ADA wheelchair clearances, if they used 2-2 seating. OTOH, they did seat 75 people in 67 linear feet. They would have lost 8 seats, going to 2-2 seating.
BTW, 60% of the R142's do not pass the ADA wheelchair guidelines.
Do designers conduct practical tests...
Not many practical car designs has come out since 1913, vis-a-vis passenger movement and comfort. Air conditioning is one exception. OTOH, the Standards were real toasty in winter, as opposed to most of today's trains.
Aren't all R142's the same? Why would 60% fail and the other 40% pass?
David
Does ADA require that every vehicle has wheelchair access, or only that every train has? I would have thought that the R142 order would have required ADA compliance.
David
What about the ability to evacuate a train, if necessary?
I assume the reason for those double leaf storm doors on the R142's was to get the required opening width in the center of the car. Otherwise, they appear to be an unnecessary expense over a single leaf door. I noticed they were not repated on the R143's, which is a foot wider and would not have that problem.
That begs two questions. One is that I don't think it's good to be too toasty in the wintertime to the point where people in coats have to remove them or be uncomfortably warm. What's the optimum wintertime temperature range on the train given that most riders probably don't want to or don't have enough room to remove their coats?
The other question also relates to winter. Especially given the puffy jackets that are popular today, how do car capacity plans account for changes in the seasons or even the rain with umbrellas? 140 or 160 or 200 people in coats, sweaters, and layers take up more room than people dressed for the beach.
I live out in Flushing. The heat on the R36's stopped working, when they were overhauled and air conditioning was installed. That's why I linked the two together.
The heat is not working on the R62's that have replaced them. The only heat source appears to be passenger body heat. I don't know, if this is due to design or operator error. The R142's have been noticeably warmer.
BTW, the hot coals in the old pot belly stoves that they used to have at elevated station waiting rooms also worked. Have you seen the electric heaters that replaced them provide any heat?
where people in coats have to remove
They used to be able to unbutton them. No more.
Especially given the puffy jackets that are popular today,
The service level capacity is 4.1 sq ft per person. It was chosen so that there is distance between standees. You should be able to gauge, if the added width of the puffy jackets would contradict this. As for crush loads: the space in the puffy jackets is air. It's crushable, so it should not have any greater effect on crush loads than the old style woolen overcoats.
I'm retired so I haven't checked out every car or even many cars, since i don't use the system every day. On the days when I do go in and I feel heat is required, I have not been able to discern any heat coming from any apparatus in the car. To wit - the car was not perceptibly warmer or colder than its surroundings. There were no noticeable hot spots in the car that would indicate a heat source.
There are electrical heaters under the seats. My feet are not any warmer for being close to them.
I've had this experience on every R62A on the Flushing line. I have seen no evidence of any heat working on a single car. I made a trip from Flushing to upper Manhattan within the last two weeks. I took the Flushing train (R62A) to an uptown West Side express (R142) to a Broadway Local (R62). The R142 exhibited a distinct temperature gradiant from its surroundings; neither R62 did.
I haven't calculated the confidence level for my statistical sample. However, I am willing to draw the conclusion that something is wrong with the R62A heating system design or operation.
David
That's one design problem. Hot air has less density than cold air or in the vernacular hot air rises. If the heat source is blown from the top of the car, then much colder air beneath will keep it from reaching down to seating level. Where did they put the thermostats?
OTOH, the top down flow works much better for air conditioning with cold air from the top falling down to seating level.
As Ralph Kramden put it, "Do you know what it's like to have a hot head and cold feet?" Apparently Mr. Bauman does :-) Seriously, though, since people are more likely to be wearing heavy clothing (in the winter) on their torsos and lower bodies than on their faces, I don't see anything wrong with the forced air coming from the ceiling and hitting people face-first. By the way, this method of doing things goes back nearly 50 years in NYC -- the R-21s, if memory serves, were the first cars to have part of the heating system put into the area between the ceiling and the roof (in any case, it goes back to before the 10 air-conditioned R-38s in 1967).
David
As another poster observed, if there is an operator-controlled heater in the cab and it is operating, then the thermostat will be reading the cab temperature and not the car temperature. Is the HVAC for the train controlled by a single temperature sensor in the lead car or is each car controlled individually?
This wouldn't be the first time a temperature sensor was placed in the wrong place. After the Levitt brothers (of Levittown fame) sold out to a conglomerate, the new company decided they could squeeze some more money out of the basic Levitt design. One thing they did was mount the thermostat on the opposite side of the kitchen's wall oven. After many law suits, the conglomerate sold the company back to the Levitts for a small fraction of its purchase price.
By the way, this method of doing things goes back nearly 50 years in NYC -- the R-21s,
The floor (under seat) heaters were operational and working until the redbirds were retrofitted with air conditioning. The ceiling fans served only to circulate the rising hot air. They didn't do an effective job but nobody cared because the people were already warm.
As for the temperature sensors, they're in the passenger cabin, not in the cab. Each car has its own sensor. There is a trainline control for the HVAC, but it turns the entire system on or off in all cars of the train, not just the heat or the air conditioning (and while the train's in service the HVAC is supposed to be on at all times, though that rule is sometimes violated). There is also a separate on/off control for the cab heater, which is just above the floor.
David
Let's say I were to get on the subway today. I would be wearing a hat, gloves, scarf, leather coat with a fleece vest underneath. At 60 degrees, I'm roasting. If crushloaded, I've dying. Taking all that stuff off and holding it, while holding a briefcase and trying to steady myself in a crowded train without losing any of it, is hard. Fifty degress is the most I would want.
Entirely different on, say, unseasonably cool damp day 50 degree day in September. I'm just wearing a jacket, and might appreciate a warm up to 60 degrees.
A more sophisticated system would vary the heat with the ambient temperature, and be electonically adjustable in the cab without a whole lot of labor.
They already have such a system in place. No heat - the temperature is slightly above ambient due to passenger body heat.
Ah, so there was a cause and effect to my observation.
As for the temperature sensors, they're in the passenger cabin, not in the cab.
You said they were mounted on the wall of the cab. If the heater is on then the wall of the cab, being metal, will also be warm. So, unless they use a mounting that is thermally isolated from the cab wall, the temperature sensor will be measuring cab temperature, not the passenger cabin temperature despite its location.
In any case, it would explain only a chilly lead or conductor car. I would have gravitated to a warm car (and I do try to check them out on a cold day) had any been warm.
I suppose I'll have to use a thermometer to refute any claim that what I feel are cold cars are just my imagination or the result of hardening arteries. That should be fun. I've already been stopped for using a stopwatch. :-)
"Ah, so there was a cause and effect to my observation."
No such relationship exists. The floor heat capacity was simply reduced by the capacity of the over-head heaters. The net gain/loss in heating capacity was zero.
David
The HVAC is convection and the seat heats are conductive?
This still does not answer why SB has no heat on 62's. Observer error seems to be the most likely as I doubt the HVAC is off on all the 7 trains.
"Ah, so there was a cause and effect to my observation."
No such relationship exists. The floor heat capacity was simply reduced by the capacity of the over-head heaters. The net gain/loss in heating capacity was zero.
The thermostats (for heat) are mounted in the ceiling????
Closer to the heat source than the passengers????
Exactly how is the air recirculated? Where's the the updraft from the passenger compartment to the HVAC unit? Are there are basically two fans at the HVAC units in each car to "force" down from the ceiling to the passenger compartment. I assume the vents are the two thin openings in the ceiling that runs the length of the car are for forcing air down to the ceiling.
Is there a plenum (large volume) between the ceiling and the car's roof?
What exactly would you propose in place of this system
I would make sure that the temperature sensor was measuring the temperature at the location within the passenger cabin and at a level with the upper body of standing passengers.
Have they ever done a smoke test to see what the air flow patterns are during cold weather?
This is what I think may be happening.
It's going to take a fair amount of time for the air to travel through the plenum and be blown out out through the ceiling ducts. The plenum air will be significantly hotter than the air in the car. Consequently there will be a "termperature inversion" - hot air on top - cold air on bottem. The air that is blown out will not travel down far but will travel sidewards to the vents at the end of the car. The consequence is that very little hot air will filter down more than 3 feet from the ceiling ducts. The thermostat in the ceiling will be warm and happy.
I suspect that a smoke test should show a top layer of "smog" that prevents the passengers from getting warm.
I wonder what our resident meteorologist would say?
I never understood nor received a decent explanation of the reasoning
behing the heating "logic" on GOH cars. There is too much
reliance on OH heat. On the "old school SMEE" equipment the
floor heat would always be on when heating was called for and
was modulated in three steps (H1 string on, H2 string on, both
strings on) depending on the thermostat (which was located in
the plenum). Starting with contract R-21, some OH heat coils
were added but the basic logic remained the same.
The current logic used on air-conditioned cars does exactly what
you postulate. The hot air gets recirculated and stays near
the top of the car. The thermostat measures the temperature
of this recirculating air. The floor heat only comes on when
the temperature up top drops to something like 45F. The
primary purpose is to maintain temperature during layup since
the blowers are shut down. In road service, the floor heaters
come on when the train is first put in, before it has heated
up, and on very cold days with a lot of door opening.
I'm not sure how far the hot air descends, but the diffuser is
designed to minimize discharge velocity to avoid drafts.
The flow is probably laminar with little opportunity for
mixing with the floor level air. It works great for cooling,
but for heating a better design would have either floor level
discharge registers or rely more heavily on the floor heaters.
That's one of the reasons for having a plenum. It acts like a low pass filter, eliminating the pulsations from the fan motor.
Do you mean from the motor or the blower? These are Sirroco
(squirrel cage) blowers which produce a very smooth flow, as
opposed to propeller-like fans, which you couldn't use in a
ducted situation.
If you mean motor torque oscillation, that is generally a problem
only with single phase motors. Subway cars use either DC
motors (almost all gone) or 3-phase AC motors with inverter drive.
Do you mean from the motor or the blower? These are Sirroco (squirrel cage) blowers which produce a very smooth flow, as opposed to propeller-like fans, which you couldn't use in a ducted situation.
I mean from the blower. Very smooth is a relative term. The blower blades propel the air. The air is not propelled in the gap between the blades. These are the pulsations, I was referring to.
You can see this by doing the following. Have a continuous smoke source in the input. Watch the output using a strobotac with the frequency close to the blade frequency. You'll see puffs of smoke on the blower output and not at the blower input.
You can measure the frequency by using a spectrum analyzer, if you don't want to believe your eyes.
You can then compare the pulsations going into free space with what happens when there is a plenum.
I'm not convinced this is happening at all, but at any rate
a typical blower has a few hundred blades so the blade "frequency" would be on the order of 3-10 kHz, i.e. an audible whine. The
design justification cited for using a "plenum" distribution
for the discharge air rather than a narrow duct is to increase
static pressure vs velocity pressure so as to minimize register
discharge velocity and associated passenger discomfort from draft.
How do you set the field of vision for the infrared temp sensor?
Have you ever measured these 3 spots on a cold day: the vent in the ceiling where the hot air is coming out; a spot on the floor directly below that vent and the intake vent at the end of the car?
A laser temp sensor is basically an infrared sensor with a laser site.
The field of vision problem remains.
One problem is that an infrared sensor has problems measuring the temperature from a point in space (air temperature at body level). It really requires a solid or liquid target. You may be measuring a background surface without realizing it.
I'd also check the specs regarding accuracy. While the readout is to the nearest degree, the accuracy for the commercial units us usually a couple of degrees.
My own preference would be to have a couple of aluminum panels (4"x5" size not critical) mounted on a pole at heights of 4' and 6'. The mountings and the pole would be thermally isolated (wood or plastic). I'd then give the panels a few minutes time to reach the temperature of their surroundings and then measure the temperature of the panels.
If I had a bunch of cars I needed to check for heat problems, I would use an infrared spotmeter, or even a set of night glasses, so I could scan a whole consist in a couple of seconds.
Additionally, there is a "spot size" with those units. They are
meant to be used up close. Hold it 4 feet away from the surface
to be measured and you are reading the average temperature of
a circular area about 1 foot in diameter, which is deceptive because
you are looking at the cute little laser dot.
Also, with the exception of very high-end units, these things have
a fixed emmisivity calibration. Different materials radiate
different amounts of far IR. This can cause a significant
error.
IR temperature sensors are meant for checking food temperature
or for finding hot mechanical parts. They are generally not used
in the HVAC industry for measuring air temperature. The instrument
of choice is a thermistor or RTD temperature sensor with a metal
bulb that is rapidly equalized with the air temperature by
whirling it around.
You probably ride the 7 more frequently than I do but my rides left me thinking mostly the same. If there is heat being applied then it isn't enough. The R-142 trains do seem much warmer to me, but with their fans making all that noise, they'd better, right? The rides on the R-62 were warmer than on the redbirds because they're sealed up better. Riding the 7 local on the el on a redbird train, especially if you had to stand near a door or the front window meant a really cold ride. While on the subject, if I had to award a prize the R-46 rides I've had over the years have been the toastiest consistently. I think they also get the a/c prize.
"BTW, the hot coals in the old pot belly stoves that they used to have at elevated station waiting rooms also worked. Have you seen the electric heaters that replaced them provide any heat?"
That must have been before my time or I can't remember so I'll take your word for it.
These figures are based on allotting a certain number of square feet per passenger (around 4.1 sq ft) and dividing this number into the total floor area. This figure should permit room for passengers to navigate so that crowding does not interfere with loading and unloading.
OK, thanks. Getting great info like that is why I love this board! Of course, that begs the question: since these are the theoretical limits, has the MTA ever done the experiment and performed counts of the passanger loading of real cars in operation?
You mean like seeing how many college students could fit in a phone booth or a Volkswagen Beetle?
One TA head is on record as stating that 200 people could fit in an IRT car. I would have liked to see him try to accomplish it, experimentally.
160 passengers.
I don't know if this is a "clash". My source is the MTA's 1999 MESA/DEIS for the SAS. It's on page 9D-14, along with the Div B service level and crush load capacities. You can do a search on "crush" from your Adobe Reader to get to the reference quickly.
I'd call it a draw. Neither of us has actually conducted a car stuffing experiment, so we are reduced to citing references. I daresay that neither of us would be comfortable holding onto a pole in an IRT car with either 160 or 180 people in it. It works out to either 2.55 or 2.27 sq ft per passenger.
From the QSM "5 passengers per square meter, or 0.2 m2 (2.15 ft2) per passenger, an uncomfortable near crush load for North Americans with frequent body contact and inconvenience with packages and brief cases. Moving to and from doorways is extremely difficult."
Of course, there's still Col. Bingham's service level figure of 200 passengers per IRT car. That comes to 2.04 sq ft per passenger. I would have liked to have seen the colonel in the middle of one of those cars.
Mark
Thanks.
from page 9D-14:
Type - Guideline Capacity - Crush Load
IRT - 110 - 160
IND (60') - 145 - 230
IND (75') - 175 - 260
We're talking apples and oranges. One determines the maximum design load by using concrete or lead blocks (properly secured). One determines crush loads by allocating a certain amount of space for each seated and standing passenger.
Not exactly true. When the R32s were overhauled, two of the ten poles near the doors were removed for the exact reason you state, to not interfere with ingress and egress. But it didn't work since the trains weren't any less crowded and the people needed a place to stand. The only effect their removal had when the trains were very crowded, is that the people standing where the poles used to be had nothing to hold on to. You can see them grabbing at the ceiling in desperation. I think their removal was a mistake and causes a hazardous situation. Of course when the train is at crush capacity it doesn't matter because you are held up by the people around you and have no place to go anyway if the train stops unexpectedly. Incidentally, the intent was to have the 2 poles that were taken out of the R32s be put in the R42s which has only 6 poles since they were both being overhauled at the same time. But that never happened because it would have cost too much.
People just don't move to the middle of the car. They are stupid and selfish.
Enough handles and bars remained for people to congregate around doors.
the door treatment of a D-Type which was similar to that of the Standards and the original R32; and the revised R32's.
Also note that the door and aisle width was significantly greater on the Standards than on the R32's.
OK, one question.....
Late nights, the R shuttle from Bay Ridge to 36th St...does it run express or local between 59th and 36th?
I ask since I believe one of the current late night shuttles runs express...i'm assuming since its much easier to relay on the express tracks then the local tracks. The N is running local, so it could easily pick up the slack from the stations served by the R all other times.
Brighton riders must make a difficult (Atlantic avenue) or out of the way (34th street) transfer to get to 6th avenue late nights and weekends.
The D does stop there at night, but not in the small window from the time the B stops running to the time the D goes local.
Until we get the official schedules, we won't know how much time that actually is.
Last N/B train leaves Brighton Beach at around 8:33 PM
Last S/B train leaves 145th st at 8:55 PM.
So from 9:15 PM to 11:30 PM, Brighton line riders from 6th Ave stations south of 34th st/6th Ave are screwed big time.
I can see the trepidation about the R. Perhaps MTA needs to beef up the rolling stock available to the R train (when such stock is available, that is) and run it more often.
R from 95
2/22
Current
0600
0601.5
0610
0613.5
0620
0623.5
0630
0643.5
0638.5
0652
0646.5
0654.5
0702.5
0702
0710.5
0711.5
0718.5
0722
0726
0731.5
0732
0739.5
0738.5
0748.5
0745.5
0756.5
0751.5
0757.5
0803.5
0804
0809.5
0812.5
0815.5
0821
0821.5
0830
0827.5
0839.5
0834
0849
0840.5
0858.5
0848.5
0856.5
then every 10 minutes
then every 10 minutes
1) How much does the total train weigh empty?
2) How much total horsepower does the train have?
The reason I'm asking is that some people are giving me shit for choosing to give up my car and live car-free. Invaribly, these are usually the same types of people who drive a Ford Leviathan SUV 20 minutes across town to buy a gallon of milk. (They also tend to live in places where an authentic Italian meal means a trip to the local Olive Garden.)
So I figure if they want to play the "bigger car is better" game, I can at least tell them that the vehicle I ride to work weighs XXX pounds and has XXX horsepower (and doesn't use a drop of gas in the process).
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
How could that possibly be any of their business?
Based on the figures that Selkirk is quoting. R68 75’ car. 42 tons=84,000 pounds. 115 HP per axle X 4=460 HP per car. An eight car train would be 336 tons=672,000 pounds and 3680 HP. The following figures are based on a WMATA car that is also 75’ 36 tons=72,000 pounds. 125 HP per axle X 4=500 HP per car. An eight car train would be 288 tons=576,000 pounds and 4000 HP.
John
Too bad there are only two R-10s still around. Otherwise we could settle the issue once and for all with a subway drag race between a 10-car prewar train and a 10-car postwar train. I keep thinking about that 9-mile stretch in your neck of the woods. Is it single or double track?:)
A train of Hippos hmmm, would that be wet or dry ?
BTW, some of us drive to work & ride just for fun, but you knew that.
R32 80,000 lbs empty, 460 HP, 11.5 HP/ton (empty)
R38 78,000 lbs empty, 460 HP, 11.9 HP/ton (empty)
R42 74,000 lbs empty, 460 HP, 12.4 HP/ton (empty)
R46 86,700 lbs empty (A car), 91,000 lbs empty (B car), 460 HP, 10.8/10.1 HP/ton (empty, A car/B car)
R62 75,000 lbs empty, 460 HP, 12.3 HP/ton (empty)
R68/68a 92,700 lbs empty, 460 HP, 9.9 HP/ton (empty)
R142a 72,600 lbs empty (average per car over a 5 car unit), 600 HP/A car and 300 HP/B car, 11.8 HP/ton average per car over a 5 car unit
R143 84,000 lbs empty (average per car over a 4 car operating unit), 600 HP, 14.3 HP/ton
For fully loaded conditions on a 60' car, add in 37,000 lbs (240 people), 43,000 lbs on a 75' car (279 people(!)) and 28,000 lbs for the 51' cars (182 people).
Fully loaded HP/ton values are:
R62 8.9
R68/68a an anemic 6.8
R142a 8.4
R143 9.9 (same as a 68/68a empty!)
If there are differences, subtle but impacting on performance, then is it enough to make for another reason why each yard should only operate a few car models so that operators can get used to their idiosyncrasies?
Mark
Car: no payment left, but insurance: $150/mo. Parking (a miracle): $140/mo. Gas r/t Stamford @ 25 mpg (optimistic): $6.00, $130/mo. Tolls $110/mo. Add $100 a month if I want to cross a bridge to have ANY fun, and do another $200 average for Sal the Mechanic who the IRS probably never found (the downside of a paid-off car). $830 a month, $300 to $400 if I barely move the damn thing, when my Metro Card and Monthly Metro-North pass (staggering at $335) gets me EVERYWHERE including my hour-distant work at fifteen-minute intervals.
And my apartment building has ZipCar, in case I need to rent on a moment's notice. I'm a registered environmentalist. Subaru is about to turn the Outback into a "light truck" so they can break the emissions rules. Guess what I'm about to shove into the drink right on top of the Redbirds?
Silly me for thinking that B-Division trains were 10 cars long... Guess I've been hanging around too much on the IRT lately.
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
Rebuilt 60' cars (R32/38/40/40M/42) also have 4 115-hp motors. (They originally had 4 100-hp motors.) A 10-car IND/BMT train has 4600 horsepower, except on the BMT Eastern Division, with a 8-car 60's, with (again) 3680 HP.
On the IRT the newest R142/142A/142S have 4 150-HP AC motors (600 HP total/car) A 10-car R142 will have 6000 HP-the same as an Amtrak Acela Express unit or an E60!
R62/62A have 4 115-hp motors (460 hp total). 10 car R62/62A will have 4600 HP, on the 7 (11 cars), 5060.
As for the Redbirds, the R33/36 kept their original 100-hp motors (4 per car, 400 total). A ten car R33/36 ML will have 4000 horsepower, a 11-car R36/33WF on the 7 will have 4400.
For me personally, not owning a car is a godsend. If I had a car, I'd be living in a ghetto since having a car, and living in my safe, luxury high rise would be financially impossible. Just the cost if insurance, and the monthly payments would throw my budget way out of whack. I just pay my rent, and my transit pass, and I can go almost anywhere I want to go. Now NJT bus service isn't all that, but it gets me to the market, mall, and to work and back adequately. The PATCO high speed line is a great backup despite the fact that it is a mile away from where I live.
I live quite well being car-free. I'm glad someone also saw the light.
Mark
Don't spend all the New Year's money too quickly!
I'm still gonna get red envelopes over the next month or so from other relatives and family friends. :)
Da Hui
Tony Leong
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
So there ;-)
There's nothing I can't buy in Manhattan that would require me to go out to the Garden State Plaza. People always think you get "special" bargins or the selection is better going out to the Woodbridge or Paramus mall. Folks. It's the same stores!
You're not getting any bargains as the franchise chains keep the prices almost the same across the board. When you add YOUR time wasted in gridlock, gas spent and tolls, you'll find the savings minimal.
Besides the mall, about a 5 minute walk (you don't need HBLR for one stop), from the PATH station to shop at Jc Penney there. At least you won't be a the mercy of paying a pathetic 8.675% sales tax on clothing, when it's 3% in Joisey.
You should come to England. VAT here is a whopping 17½%.
Come down south and go shopping---
Maryland--Sales Tax 5%
West Virginia--Sales tax 6%
I believe that there is no tax on clothing in Pennsylvania (Not sure though)
Mark
And it's even cheaper with PATH, at about $1.25 each way if you take in account of filling up your Pay-Per-Ride Metrocard with $10 or more. But Pavonia/Newport is not equipped with the new fare controls, so that will be a moot point when all PATH stations will accept Pay-Per-Ride cards by 2005 or so.
($10 plus 20% equals $12. Take $12 into PATH $1.50 fare=8 rides.)
So you pay $10 and get 8 rides for the price of 6.666666666667 rides.
Peace,
ANDEE
Don't me fooled, the mall "entrance" is not nearby.
Isn't this sad. I'm seeing more and more of this. Malls and shopping centers are poping up all over the place with no sidewalks and bus stops blocks from the entrance. If there is public transport, it's very poorly serviced like the NJ Transit's WoodBridge Center bus line. If you don't have a car, the Garden State Plaza is almost impossible to enter by walking or cycling.
Since these malls are anti-ped, I ignore them.
They opened a move movie theather in West New York that's right under a shopping center. It was designed solely for the motorist as there were NO sidewalks built and you have to go under a DARK parking lot just like the picture above to see a movie.
As you can imagine, very few people go into that theather since they ignored the walk in crowd which explains why it's always empty all the time.
The mall is right in the heart of Staten Island and a cool place overall. You can take the 91 bus but I have no idea how long it's going to take you. Forget all those naysayers about the smell. It's not that bad.
You can also take the R train to 86th st/4th Ave and catch the S79 there.
Still take the slow SIR to Eltingville and catch the S59/79 buses there.
You are right if your're going to walk. I took my bicycle last summer from Grant City and it wasn't that far.
If you're interested in Golden's, get off one (or two?) stops before the mall on the S59/S79.
Da Hui
Regards,
Jimmy
R4
Peace,
ANDEE
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
Peace,
ANDEE
Con Ed has electrocuted another human being recently, however, so you might not want to walk on any thin metal strips on the sidewalks. Apparently there isn't much we can do about this sort of unfortunate accident, as Con Ed fired a couple of whistle-blowers over unsafe maintenance practices.
But, hey, David, the city's definitely good to dogs and pigeons.
Squirrels, as 'cute' as they supposedly are, are notrious for knocking out electrical substations. They generally explode nicely when it happens, too. They'll climb an inuslator and *boom*. Years ago, GE had a coating that let a little leakage go through to supposedly give them a LV shock before atomizing them with 25 - 40 kv. Didn't work i don't think.
From what I see of the SAS plans, Q trains will leave the SAS at 72 St. Won't that mean that mean that the SAS will be a little bit bereft of trains south of this. Is the plan to run short services to fill the capacity, or later on will, say the Queens Boulevard line be joined on, so that V trains could be diverted south along the SAS?
I think that this seems a good idea, and a realistic one, worthy of serious consideration. You would then make full use of the southern half of the SAS, and the four Queens Boulevard trains would have four different destinations.
Others have already pointed out that SAS should have a station at 50 St. I agree and so did the designers of every line going through the area. including every subway line and the former els. 2nd Ave. El had a stop at 50 St. The 3rd Ave. El, which seems to have gotten more traffic from older riders I've spoken with, had stops at 47 and 55 Sts. I think that one additional station could be put into the area given the precedent and that it could be a major draw for the office buildings in the area. The IND mentality of build every 10 blocks still put stations at 50 St. on their two Manhattan trunk lines.
The station could extend from 50th to 53rd Streets. And the one planned at 57th Street (actually 54 to 57) could extend from 60th to 63rd Streets. The purposes would be to maintain the ten block spacing to serve this extraordinarily densely built-up area, and to allow convenient transfers to and from the east-west lines on 53rd, 60th and 63rd Streets.
Why was that route discontinued in the first place? If I recall correctly from past discussions, it suffered from low ridership, and there may have been merge constraints as well.
David
It made me think that if the SAS does not add a stop in east midtown circa 50-51 Street, a lot of riders will have to continue using (and crowding) the Lex. The current proposed SAS station lineup (54-57 St and 42 Street) will do little to help people who work in midtown.
But you're right. The run between 63rd and 42nd will be awkward, especially since the southbound T has to be diverged before the southbound (V?) can be merged, if they choose to run it on the SAS. It would be nice if there were some kind of people mover, like at Bank Station (I think) in London, that could quickly take people underground between 63rd, the 60 St BRT, the 59 St Lex, 53, 51, all the Grand Central entrances, and all the new SAS stations. I don't know that it would take much tunneling to do it.
It would be nice if there were a people mover between Bank and Monument, but I'm afraid there isn't one. Maybe you mean the moving ramp up from the Drain station to the Central Line station at Bank.
One ride = the entire ridership pattern on the Lex? How are you able to draw conclusions from one ride, especially when, by your own admission, you don't normally use the line.
I've ridden the Lex many times and have not seen the pattern you refer to, although it can certainly happen, since you saw it once.
I agree that a stop in the low 50s is useful, but you've jumped to a conclusion which you have no evidence to support. Ride the line 20 times at various times and then see if your contention is supportable.
So his conclusion is not supported by anything. Let him take the time to collect observations...
Agreed, he only rode the 6 train once. But I have ridden it quite often in rush hour and I would agree that the southbound 6 is considerably emptier south of 51st in the AM rush than north of 51st. The last car is probably fuller because of transfers from the E and V, but the rest is emptier.
That doesn't necessarily prove that the SAS needs a stop in the low 50s, of course.
Consider the case of 86 Street on the 1/9. While the everyday passenger realizes that this is one of the busiest stations on the line, the occasional passenger might not. If that occasional passenger rides at the back of a northbound train, they'll know that the station is heavily used. On the other hand, a person riding in the first or second car would probably wonder why the station wasn't added to the skip stop list, since only one or two people will get off of a very crowded car.
Moral of the story -- you can't judge the usage at a station in just one ride, nor can you judge it if you're in the same position in the train everyday.
CG
CG
Yep, I had the same experience on the 6 leavintg 51 St S/B, the last 2 cars were empty, but the rest was packed. I actually got a seat on a 6 in rush hour...I was SHOCKED!
Where are the exits? Is there one at the north end of the station or only one at the south end? Citigroup is near the north end.
I was about to suggest that there should be an additional exit at 50th Street!
The length of an IRT train is 510 feet, and streets are spaced at 1/20 of a mile = 264 feet; so the length of an IRT train is about two short blocks. 51st Street station must extend from 50 to 52 Street, short of Citigroup which is at 53 to 54 Street.
The length of an SAS train will be 600 feet, which is about two and a half blocks, so your SAS station at 57 Street won't really stretch all four blocks (1056 feet) from 57 Street to 53 Street without some extra walking distance.
Yes, there will be some extra walking from the 57th St. SAS station south. But the point is that it is misleding to say -- oh, how terrible that there is a gap from 57th to 42nd. The gap is from 54th to 44th. -- 10 blocks.
Yes I agree, but that's the gap between station entrances/exits.
The SAS was designed to have stations about every half mile, meaning, I presume, two stations per mile. That is in fact the plan, except (surprisingly) for the important midtown area where there are to be two stations per mile and a half.
Yes, but the point is that there'll be considerable walking within the stations, so it'll be at least 11 blocks.
It thus stands to reason that the people who are currently riding the 6 train to transfer to the E or V at 51st will find the Q train running down 2nd Ave to the Broadway line possibly more convenient. This might prove especially true in warm weather, when people on 8th ave or so -who might normally ride the E train- could be more easily persuaded to get a 1 seat ride with a longer walk than when it's cold out. Perhaps the MTA can cater to some of these people, who might want to be further west than the Q on Broadway could provide with an orange diamond T train running from say the E's WTC terminal to 125th via the 63rd St connector, although that's just one of many many solutions that are a very long way in the future.
First the line has to be built.
I think you are right that the Q train will help to relieve overcrowding of transfer passengers at 51st and 53rd Street. It will get people from the upper east side to the west part of midtown. The Broadway line runs through some of the densest business districts, and should attract those droves of riders without the need to add an Eighth Avenue train. But for those wanting to go farther west, there is to be a transfer from the T train to the E at 57th Street station, which will extend to near 53rd Street.
No, people are leaving the 6 in droves at 51st because the densest collection of office space in Manhattan is the upper 40s and lower 50s from 3rd Ave over to Madison.
There is an illustration of midtown Manhattan under 400 feet of water, which clearly shows where the tallest buildings are. There is a very dense concentration where you say, but there are also large clusters along Sixth Avenue and Broadway.
I didn't say the tallest office buildings were in the upper 40s and lower 50s on Madison and east. I said the densest collection of office space. The west side has some very tall buildings, but the East 40s/50s have the most square footage because they are so built up. The west side still has lots of low buildings in between the tall ones.
Point taken, but I don't know of any map that shows densities in enough detail, or where the data can be found.
I do not doubt what you say, but I would like to know more. Ideally I would like to see a complete set of numerical data or a map showing, for instance, square feet of floor space per square foot of land area for each block or group of blocks.
There was one in the NY Times real estate section shortly after 9/11.
I realize that's not a very helpful answer.
The two SW1200s have arrived at NY & Atl (1/20), and the GP-10 #201 is ready to be picked up by CSX.
Footnote: SW1200 #9373 was NH 650, so she has come back home, almost, and
the GP-10 was originally PRR 7248.
No update on the GP-10 at this point.
Anyone know?
--Mark
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
David
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Regards,
Jimmy
With the plexiglass frames by the doors, pseudo-wood trim, wallpaper interiors, and the like, the R44/46 interiors really resemble the M-series (M-1, M-2, M-2) interiors.
Does anyone know what happened? My colleague was curious as to what transpired the temporary shutdown of the Livonia line last night. No details, but just a summary (police investigation, sick customer, 12-9, etc.) of what happened.
Thanks in advance.
Green-Yellow Lines---"Archives-Navy Memorial-Penn Quarter
Red Line---Rhode Island Avenue-Brentwood
Red Line---New York Ave-Florida Ave-Galludet University
Mark
Who is/are the idiot(s) who come up with these stupid names? What's the point?
That'd be even more annoying! Print so small that you'd need a magnifying glass to read it clearly. They'd need to use that microprinting technology that they use on money just to print the station names!
Trivia question (John don't answer it---you're too smart)
The station that was originally to be called
Federal City College
is now what today?
What was the original, planned, name for the Franconia-Springfield Station?
Which two stations were originally to be called Marine Barracks and Voice of America?
Mark
p.s.--if these are too easy, I'll let John do the questions :)
Marine Barracks is now Eastern Market. Voice of America was to be Federal Center SW?
I don't mind the College Park, Brookland, and Archives names too much, but I mind the ones that add on points of interest nowhere near the station.
Mark
I hate to call both of you incorrect. The J Route as built and in operation today is different then what was in the planned configuration prior to 1976. The configuration of the J Route was originally to terminate east of Backlick Road and the then Southern Railway. The station at this location was to be called Springfield (J03). VRE now has a station at this location on the Manassas line. The terminal station that is now located south of the Springfield Mall that is now called Franconia - Springfield (J03) was to be built to the north south of Franconia Road on what was then called the H Route and was to be named Franconia (H01).
John
Thanks dude--That's why I put down circa 1976---I knew there'd be some confusion on that one......
Mark
Backlick Road
John
Yet this was the only one WMATA openly defied, despite the fact that "Reagan National Airport" is the actual name of the airport, whether they like it or not.
Before they play such open politics, they should see which administration is in power.
Also, George Mason University's main campus is nowhere near Virginia Square...thats a satelite campus...and the main campus is nowhere near Vienna station either. Downtown Fairfax is about as far as downtown Vienna from the Vienna station, so the Vienna-Fairfax (without the GMU) I can live with.
Actually its was Woodley Park-Zoo their is no National in the station name.
John
Zoological Park.
Mark
Oh, and lets hear it for Nicholson Lane
and just plain 'ol U Street-----
Let's not forget.....Alabama Avenue
WoooHoooo
Zoological Park.
Right you are ! ! !
John
Mark
The quicker way to avoid paying $5 is to just get off the A one stop early, at Aqueduct/No.Conduit, and walk to the Lefferts Blvd AirTrain station. Only takes 15 minutes, and there's even sidewalk most of the way. But not so good in bad weather or with much luggage.
(By the way, the local bus routes are rumored to start terminating at the Federal Circle AirTrain station beginning in April. Point is to lessen congestion at the terminals. Will also increase AirTrain ridership a bit.)
After you get off the A train, exit and get to the street, You then make a left turn and walk down Conduit to Lefferts Blvd. That is about 6 blocks PLUS the distance from the subway station to the end of Aqueduct Race Track. About another 5 blocks. You then make a right hand turn at Lefferts Blvd and walk south past the highways and the parking lot until you get to the Airtrain station there. I'd say the walk is at least a mile. Definately NOT a walk to take on bad weather days or if you have alot of luggage.
Hopefully someone check out 1C1F's suggestion and report it to us people in subtalk. It won't take 15 minutes to walk it!
But much less anxiety than taking a sssllloooowww local bus. No worries about delays.
When I go to the airport, I have luggage with me — as I suspect most JFK visitors do, unless they're airport employees. I'd much sooner pay the five bucks.
I've starting doing it because I go to JFK light, and not often enough so that a monthly pass makes sense.
For most locals, it's nothing. No worse than walking along West St. A back door to JFK that is nothing like the Van Wyck entrance.
I'm just concerned that someone else will try your idea and complain that the distance is too long. It's not that one gets off at Aqueduct, cross the road and airtrain is right there.
I only recommend the 15 minute stroll for people who don't want to pay $5, and don't realize that the Q3, Q10 or B15 are much slower.
Perhaps others will try it and post their reviews in the coming weeks.
Which employees are paying a much more reasonable $40 for a monthly pass.
I'd guess only a few people will do this each day. If you're an employee, AirTrain costs only a buck or so.
But the rumor was definitely no local buses at the terminals by April. The layover moves from Terminal 4 to the Federal Circle AirTrain station. We'll see.
It's illogical to have the buses end at Federal Circle. The AirTrain station is in the middle of the car rental area, while the bus stop is almost 1/4 mile west of there, in the circle itself.
The PA should also create an intermodal hub at the Newark AirTrain stop at the Northeast Corridor, to reduce congestion at those terminals as well. PLENTY of space.
Railfanning is a different matter (maybe not in the eyes of th Port Auth though).
He just played, "Subway Blues," by Mabel Scott. A good sounding forties R & B song. Of course Harlem is mentioned. At the end of the song, she talks about riding the "A, D and E."
The show can be heard on the net any time in the next week. Here is the link.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio2/shows/jones/playlist.shtml
The show playlist can be downloaded.
I didn't know you could get THAT station in America!
Here is a link to all UK stations.
http://www.radiofeeds.co.uk/
Nearly all UK stations stream.
This is my first post here, although I've been lurking for some time now. I've searched and searched but can't find any information on a train that was commonly called the "Chambers Street Special". Back in 1983 (I was 13 and this was my first ride on the subway) my ex sister-in-law took me to work with her for the day. I'm pretty sure we started off our journey on the West End line. I recall her saying that we have to get off and transfer to the "Chambers Street Special", which we did. I have no idea where we transfered or where it took us. Does anyone have any recollection of such a train? This mystery has been bugging me for many years.
Thanks for reading.
A few more questions since you guys know so much about it:
1) Did this train stop at the same stations as the current local M?
2) Where did it originate from? 95th St, Bay Pkwy, etc.
3) It didn't go over the south side of the Manny B, did it?
Thanks again!
Between 36th Street and Chambers Street, as the current M running local in Brooklyn, yes.
2) Where did it originate from? 95th St, Bay Pkwy, etc.
95th Street in the a.m.
3) It didn't go over the south side of the Manny B, did it?
No, the connection between the south side and Chambers Street was severed in 1967.
Not exactly redundant. The original Fourth Avenue Bankers co-existed with the West End Short Line, both to Nassau Street, for more than three decades.
I remember the 9/12/01 - 10/26/01 period when the J and M were extended. For the novelty of it, I rode a J north from Dekalb, and an M to Coney Island south from Chambers. There was either a J or an M every 5 minutes on weekends, and between Chambers and Dekalb, they were basically empty despite no Bway Local via tunnel.
Tony
Afternoon (RJ): Chambers St - 95th St, becomes (RR) 95th St - Astoria.
The R didn't just receive R32 and R46 cars, they inherited the cars from the N line as a result from the northern terminals swap. The N line went from Jamaica to CI and the R line vice-versa.
Tony: I see that you recieved many answers to your question. Let me try and put them it sequential order.
Prior to the opening of the Chrystie Street Line in November, 1967 ; 4 Avenue-Nassau Service ran as follows.
AM Rush Lv 95 Street, all stops to 59 Street, express to Pacific Street, bypass Dekalb Avenue and via the south side of the Manhattan Bridge to Chambers Street, then all stops via tunnel to 9 Avenue on the West End Line.
PM Rush Lv 9 Avenue, all stops via tunnel to Chambers Street then via the south side of the Manhattan Bridge to Dekalb Avenue and all stops to 95 Street.
All trains carried "M" Nassau Street on the front rollsigns. In the am rush the side signs read "M Nassau Street Express" while in the pm rush the side signs carried "S Special" to differentiate them from the Brighton-Nassau trains.
These trains carried "TT West End Local" on the side signs when running between Broad Street and 9 Avenue. They were re-signed by the conductor while the train passed through the Montague Street Tunnel.
Effective with the opening of the Chrystie Street Line 4 Avenue-Nassau service was replaced by new line known as the "RJ". It ran between 95 Street and Eastern Parkway or 168 Street-Jamaica.
All of these trains ran local between 95 Street and Nassau Street. A few ran express on the Broadway-Bklyn Line between Eastern Parkway and Essex Street. If you were lucky enough to get a train with the proper rollsigns which was something of a rarity in those days it would have read, "RJ via Nassau Street."
This service lasted only until July, 1968.
Effective with the opening of the station at 57 Street and 6 Avenue in July 1968 4 Avenue-Nassau Service was again revised to run between 95 Street and Chambers Street making all local stops. Trains ran northbound in the am rush and southbound in the pm rush. After the pm rush trains deadheaded back to Chambers Street for layup and ran southbound in the early am with passengers from 527 to 716 am.
These trains were eventually identified as RR Nassau Street Locals and as R Nassau Street Local after May 5, 1986. Since you say that you rode this line in 1983 this is the train that you would have been on.
I hope this helps. Please don't hesitiate to ask if you would like more info.
Larry, RedbirdR33
One other question. Why would the opening of the 57 Street 6 avenue station have an effect on this line?
Also, what types of cars usually ran on this line in 1983? I'd like to check out a few pictures of it on this site. Someone had mentioned that he recalls seing R27s run this route. Before 1986 (like in 1983) how were they labeled - S?
So essentially, the Nassau line had two types of service during the rush hours: the M from Brighton at all times, and the Special (95th Street & 9th Ave) during rush hours.
This is fascinating stuff.
The pre-1967 routes must have confused many a people. Currently, are there any trains that run such different routes during the same day? The train morphs into a TT while in the tunnel, and for what, just to go do 9th Avenue! That's hardly a West End Local if you ask me.
There's just something about 1970's and the subway that hooks me in. Everytime I watch The Warriors I get that feeling and the Taking of Pelham 123 to a lesser degree.
Not too much. People were pretty used to their regular trains. The two Banker's Specials (Brighton and 4th Avenue) carried different markers, different side signage, and usually a bullseye hung on the front pantographs.
On the Brighton, the Banker's (for their last decade-plus) was distinguished because it almost always had Standards and the Bullseye while the regular express had Triplexes.
Just like you can figure a Diamond-Q from a Circle-Q by the equipment.
Other lines you could tell by equipment (in the mid-50's): if it was a SIRT car train it was a Culver-Nassau; if it was a train of Multis, it was a Myrtle-Chambers (after Fulton closed); a Standard on the Brighton was a local, an a Triplex was an express--later this was R27 and R32.
Now which lines can you tell today by the equipment that pulls in?
Broadway IRT, R-142's are 2's R-62's are 3's (and R-62a's are 1's)
Sure, they had about 30 of them and. They covered a few trains on the West End Short Line after the Culver became a shuttle.
I only recall seeing the mod Lo-Vs on the Franklin Shuttle and the Culver Shuttle. I think some may have made it to the West End Short Line, but I'm not at all certain. I bet LarryRedbird would know.
On the subsurface lines in London - if it's white with 6 long cars with single leaf doors (D Stock) it's a District Line service via Tower Hill (or the Olympia shuttle), if it's red and white and flares out at the bottom and has transverse seats (A Stock - usually 8 car trains) it's headed up the branch, if it's red and white and tucks in at the bottom (C stock - usually 6 car trains) it's either going round the Circle, to Hammersmith, or is an Edgware Rd - Wimbledon District.
They'll likely update more of the signs a week before the changes take effect.
They even hold the <6> for the pelham bay park bound 6 local , in the same retarded manner that they hold the <6> for the parkchester trains. I don't blame the <6> C/R's because they don't wait for the local at all, if they dont have to (they frequently close down in the faces of the arriving local train passengers at Hunts point av, given that they don't have holding lights).
Anyway, two days ago, the <6> that I was on sat in parkchester for a grand total of 13 minutes. 5 minutes (train time) with half the train in the station, and the rest of that time, we sat there waiting for the damned Parkchester bound 6 local (If I could ban that train from existance, i sure as hell would).
The ONLY time that they don't hold the 6 express was today, when there was a pretty big delay in 6 service (for some reason, my <6> arrived at 3 av-138st on the local track, as a parkchester train was pulling out on the express track, but we switched over to the express track as we left the station). The <6> went at full, constant speed, until it was pretty much in Hunts point, and the same thing at st. lawrence av. We weren't held at parkchester and as a result, the train arrived at my station 11 minutes after we left manhattan!
If you're looking for a wild ride, hop aboard car 7394. It takes the classic <6> rock to a new extreme. It shakes extremely violenly, and got to the point when one (set) of end doors were throwing themselves open from the swaying. I got a nice few knocks to my head and back, that actually weren't passable as "fun from the <6> ride" but really did hurt.
Anyway, two days ago, the <6> that I was on sat in parkchester for a grand total of 13 minutes. 5 minutes (train time) with half the train in the station, and the rest of that time, we sat there waiting for the damned Parkchester bound 6 local (If I could ban that train from existance, i sure as hell would).
The ONLY time that they don't hold the 6 express was today, when there was a pretty big delay in 6 service (for some reason, my <6> arrived at 3 av-138st on the local track, as a parkchester train was pulling out on the express track, but we switched over to the express track as we left the station). The <6> went at full, constant speed, until it was pretty much in Hunts point, and the same thing at st. lawrence av. We weren't held at parkchester and as a result, the train arrived at my station 11 minutes after we left manhattan!
If you're looking for a wild ride, hop aboard car 7394. It takes the classic <6> rock to a new extreme. It shakes extremely violenly, and got to the point when one (set) of end doors were throwing themselves open from the swaying. I got a nice few knocks to my head and back, that actually weren't passable as "fun from the <6> ride" but really did hurt.
strange, what happened to the previous title...
You probably put "<6>" in the subject line, correct? When you do that, the board thinks you're trying to put an HTML tag in there, but since there's no such tag, the board removes it. Hence, your <6> disappears.
Funny how it doesn't happen in the actual post, though.
Ok, Now I shall keep my word and let you fill in 2 and 3
Of course, you speak from experience.
I know I wasn't going to do this again but it just had to be said.
http://www.utu.org/worksite/detail_news.cfm?ArticleID=11407
I guess the LIRR needs better expansion joints in the rails, so that they can cope with the 10°F-100°F range without cracking, and other sensitive parts could have heaters in appropriate places so that the snow doesn’t melt then regelate into an icy obstruction.
After all, if they can put heaters around the average refrigerator door, how difficult would it be to do the same for a railroad car door?
why do I get the impression that every new car design is a design from scratch? What happened to building on 150 years of railroad experience?
The FRA threw all that in the trash heap with their Tier I and Tier II crashworthiness and emissions specifications. Sent only the US-spec varnish back to the drawing board, consequently…
You're wrong. A little education about snow for you: In the New York, where you have a humid climate, snow comes down heavy, sticky (which is why you can make great snowballs and snowmen). Try going to Colorado or other semiarad areas of the country. The snow is fine, powdery - great for skiing, but murder on equipment because its just like desert sand, only worse. And it gets into everything.
It's reasonable for trains operating in the desert to be modified for such conditions. Spending money to do that on the LIRR would be piss-poor planning because such conditions are rare.
"I guess the LIRR needs better expansion joints in the rails, so that they can cope with the 10°F-100°F range without cracking,"
Can you explain how continuously-welded track behaves under conditions of extreme cold?
The trucks are a separate issue - and Bombardier certainly bears responsibility.
"After all, if they can put heaters around the average refrigerator door, how difficult would it be to do the same for a railroad car door?"
How much do those heaters cost to install and run? How many days during the winter would you actually need them?
Do you have answers to these questions? After all, since you obviously think LIRR screwed up here, we must presume you would have done better. So show us what you actually know.
CWR is steel, which, like any other metal, contracts when it gets colder. If it is not allowed to move, stress builds up and eventually the metal will fracture. It is possible to build welded rails with long expansion joints that are essentially two rails chamfered and placed side by side, so there are several inches of “wiggle room”. I have seen this done in Britain which has smaller temperature swings than the NE USA.
You are right in that I am not a railway car designer and don’t know the answer to questions like the cost of installing extra heaters around doors so they won’t freeze. I don’t know the cost benefit analysis of an exercise like that.
However, I would also hazard that the management of LIRR/MNR/NJT don’t know the answer to those questions either and I think they should.
1: Move the HPA platform back so as to let NYP-bound LIRR trains make one last stop in Queens. This would provide a great temporary solution until ESA becomes a reality.
2: Triple-tracking from NHP to Hicksville. Okay, that's a pretty big deal. :P
3: Make Floral Park a mainline stop as well as a Hempstead Line stop. I would very much like the ability to go from Mineola to Hempstead without leaving Zone 4.
4: More frequent service from Bethpage to Babylon.
The good thing that you could have said about bringing the Nets to Newark was that they would be served by two railway, multiple bus and the Newark City subway lines! (I think the stadium was going to be built on vacant land not too far away from the NJPAC, which is getting a Newark City Subway station on the Broad Street extension.
A new name is required, and only one makes sense -- the Brooklyn Staphangers!
Brooklyn's baseball team was called the Dodgers because Brooklyn was the borough of trolleys, and its residents were trolley dodgers. Well Brooklyn doesn't have trolleys anymore.
But there is one aspect of Brooklyn that makes its way of life and people very different from most people in the rest of the country -- the subway. Thus, "Straphangers" would stand for Brooklynites. They could call them the 'hangers for short.
Jimmy
Well, get to work. If you can come up with a new, stricly local term for "subway rider," and get it widely accepted and understood throughout the Metropolitan Area in the years before the team moves to Brooklyn, good for you.
Otherwise, "Brooklyn Straphangers" it is as far as I'm concerned.
The MTA could even become a team sponsor. Instead of paying for naming rights for the stadium, it could accept a little less for the land in exchange for naming rights to the team and a host of other promotional benefits over the next 50 years.
Think about it -- as people from Iowa hear that the "Brooklyn Straphangers" have won a game, they'll ask "what's a straphanger?" And having found out about it, they'll ride the subway when they come to New York.
The Continental arena was located in the middle of sprawl where no one wanted to travel. Just before the game, that area is loaded with cars, trucks and buses which is the last thing anyone wants to be in during rush hour. In the end, the motorist did NOT support the team at all and it goes to show you the stupidity of building a team in the middle of nowhere.
One thing is certain. If they build that arena in Brooklyn, it better be close to the subway or suffer the same fate as NJ!
If that argument were valid, then Giants Stadium would have failed too --- but it didn't.
The Nets' problem was not specifically the move to the Meadowlands, but the fact that they've moved over and over again, so they've simply never developed a loyal fan base. It also doesn't help that, most of the time, they've been a terrible team. They got good recently, but you don't turn these things around overnight.
However, one can blame NJT for not placing a station by the Meadowlands. While Metro-North does not serve Yankee Stadium, the NYC Subway does. Here, one already has a major transportation hub of rail and subway lines, with as many as 10 lines (rush hours) running there. This could also perk up reverse-peak travel to Atlantic Terminal on game nights. While they are at it, what also needs to be built are special bus lanes (I know this is OT-BusTalk) to make sure that there is adequate public transit to the new arena.
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
You can't compare the NFL with the Nets. The Giants play less then 12 games a year at that Stadium and during a Sunday afternoon when there is less traffic on route 3. The Nets play many games there and most of the games are just before rush hour traffic.
>>>>The Nets' problem was not specifically the move to the Meadowlands, but the fact that they've moved over and over again, so they've simply never developed a loyal fan base.<<<<
How many years have the Nets been playing at that arena? I suspect they been playing at the Meadowlands more than 20 years and still could not develope a fan base at all.
Folks. You could put the Los Angeles Lakers in the Meadowlands but no one is about to venture in that area during rush hour to see a basketball games unless it's the playoffs.
>>>>> It also doesn't help that, most of the time, they've been a terrible team. They got good recently, but you don't turn these things around overnight.
<<<<<<
The Knicks have a bad team but they sell out every game. Then again, it helps to be located on 34th street and not in the middle of sprawl.
I'll give you some credit on the Nets being a terrible team but the Devils don't attract anyone either! Why? Because there're located in the same arena!
I might have hopped the PATH to see the Nets in Newark, after catching a meal in Ironbound and riding the Newark Subway, something I have never gotten around to doing. I will definately go to see them in Newark. Meadowlands? No way! The only two events Ihave seen there are a Simon and Garfunkel concert in the early 1980s and a Women's World Cup game in 2000. The events were fine. Getting to and from was HELL.
The state snuffed them because the Nets were a drain on state funds, not becauser of relocation concerns. Yeah, there was a time when the State actively wanted economic activity to only go to the suburbs, but that was back in the days of White Flight. Now, with all those municipalitys carping for smart growth, and open space dwindling, there is some government activity gunning for city and town centers. However, I still think racism is playing a role somewhere, which may help explain the Newark snub a bit.
I’m not sure I agree with the racism factor. In fact I think the state did some of their bit to get Newark the funding it needed: the deal with the Port Authority for extra $$$ from the Newark Airport lease, which was McGreevy’s way of saying thanks to mayor-for-life & State Senator Sharpe James** for his support in the gubernatorial campaign. So, I’m not sure where the arena deal broke down.
** A really odious part of the NJ Democratic machine. I really wish that Cory Booker had won the last Newark Mayoral election.
The MTA should be mindful of reopening a decades old exit at the IRT side on the southern end of Atlantic Ave.
The MTA being mindful and using sense? I can't see that happening.
The property isn't worth a lot, compared with the West Side Yards. That's where big bucks should be demanded.
I suggest:
1) A replacement yard.
2) Naming rights, for the team and arena. Ie. Brooklyn Staphangers at the Transit Arena. Better than naming them after some stupid company that will go broke in an accounting scandal two years later.
3) Ditch 2,000 of the 3,000 parking spaces. With three per car, and adding the existing spaces at Atlantic Center and elsewhere, they seem to be planning for a 2/3 auto modal split. Unacceptable! Limit it to 1,000, and the additional off-peak subway and LIRR fares generated by perhaps 6,000 riders times 40 games times times two directions -- 160,000 rides per year plus the playoffs -- indefinately, capitalized, would be more than sufficient additional compensation.
Now if only we can bring back Coney Island to 1/3 of what it was, and generate more off peak fare revenue there.
If this happens, I wonder if it will help Brooklyn in a separate identity from NYC. When the Dodgers left it was a big blow to Brooklyn.
I don’t think there are any net tax revenues after all the subsidies etc. In fact, it might be a benefit as it’s one less rathole to pump the money down!
I believe that the current agreement Ratner has with the City is similar to the one that existed when that complex on 50 St/ 8 & 9 Aves was built - anyone displaced by construction is to be offered an aprtment at close to their current rent in the new building(s).
And will he also offer employment (at similar compensation) to all the people who work at businesses that would be displaced?
Don't get me wrong. I like the idea of the Nets moving to Brooklyn. In my opinion, though, Ratner should make sure that everyone he displaces is taken care of fairly.
The building has been gone for at least a decade and had already been replaced by retail & offices (also by Forest City Ratner). The arena site is over the LIRR yard, east of the terminal site.
See Pig's earlier post
Whatever that means.
No, it's neotraditional-postmodernism replacing neoholeinground-emptychasmism. The building pictured was demolished in 1978.
The arena doesn't fit. The rail yards are 200 feet wide. You need nearly twice that for the arena's smallest dimension. So at the minimum, that means buying up and tearning down the block to the south.
That is an industrial block that the city rezoned to allow loft coversions, so now that is their own private Darien. It shows you better not make part of your "downtown" residential unless you really mean to keep it that way. This is not the only time the city has been nailed that way, and it isn't really fair to anyone.
I believe that the second block to be bought up, way down on Vanderbilt south of Pacific, is unneccessary, unless Ratner needs the profits from the additional buildings to pay for the arena. One compromise would be for him to give that block up.
The best site would have been where the first Atlantic Center building is, but that's water under the bridge. An arena was dicussed there before Atlantic Center was built, but that was in the actual heyday of NIMBY. Four people in Fort Greene said "boo" and the arena proposal went away.
The stadium may be a big winner for Brooklyn. I've always been surprised that the Atlantic-Pacific-Flatbush Terminal area wasn't the center of Brooklyn business development. The poor Williamsburg bank building sits out there all lonely surrounded by small mostly run down businesses. (I love the old buildings, but they don't make much of a CBD). With the building by Flatbush terminal, and the development that will surround the stadium will add a new center of gravity to Brooklyn's downtown that could really revitalize it. Think of what Metrotech has done for Brooklyn. Hopefully Brooklyn can balance the old with the new.
Yes, but it is a striking centerpoint, visible for miles around. Its location is kind of odd, real estate-wise, sort of a Brooklyn version of putting the Empire State Building on Fifth and 34th Streets. That didn't really lead to the establishment of an office center in the surrounding area. But it did have other benefits.
The stretch of Flatbush Avenue (and Flatbush Avenue Extension) from there to the Manhattan Bridge is one congested corridor. It has stayed busy. It's fitting to have that building where is is. With Flatbush Terminal and the subways, damn it, it should be a fully rented building. Last time I looked there were lots of dentists in there. But I do think the future of the area is on a good track.
BTW, that church right next to it is well matched to the lower portion of the W.S.B. Looks really nice from the sidewalk.
Yes, I live two blocks over (St. Marks & Flatbush, N side) from the spot, so I probably will be accused of being a NIMBY. This isn't the case.
If they want to build this complex and have the team, I am actually fine with that. I simply want it to be paid, including the costs of the externalities it will create, entirely with private funds. This area of Brooklyn does not need any revitalization. Fort Greene and Prospect Heights are already nearly fully revitalized as is. the Brooklyn Academy of Music is right there, 5th avenue has enjoyed a dramatic turnaround on its own, and occupancies all around are already high, and rents even higher. Adding a me-too Gehry building, a TGI Friday's, and luxury apartments would not do what the area is doing organically now.
If they want to develop the trench that is the current LIRR yard for this purpsose, that is ok too, in theory. I simply would ask that they bulldoze the Atlantic Center (already ratner property I believe) instead of people's homes. It is ugly as built, and, the retail space there can be replaced much more easily than the apartments slated for destruction. The retail space could even be replaced at the same corner, in the same complex...the new Metrotech building on the site is already very tall, so there is no problem building something new there just as high. People should take a good long look at the atlantic shopping center as an example of what kind of aesthetic impact modern development has on this area. It is nothing to go out of the way to replicate.
I also object to the idea of houses being destroyed to build more parking. This area is car-choked as it is. the Atlantic Ave transportation complex is starting to look great, the work being done on it is really taking shape nicely, and with the new Manny B train service there should be plenty of convenient public transport to the exact spot the stadium will be. Not one square inch of parking should be built for this project. Robert Moses is dead. Haven't we learned anything about increasing "capacity"?
Bulldozers are not a sign of progress, they are a sign of destruction. If the city and borough are looking to revitalize Brooklyn, put the stadium in Red Hook or East New York or the Navy Yard or near the Pfizer plant site. If private enterprise wants to bring the Nets to Brooklyn, that is one thing; but that isn't what this project is. This is a gimmie from a billionaire mayor to a millionaire developer.
I can accept that this is all but a fait accompli, but there are ways to do this humanely, meaning that lives don't have to be destroyed so others can be entertained. It is a choice.
If the Nets and the Nicks played against each other in the finals, would we call it the commuter-rail series?
Can't happen. Basketball and Hockey have geographic conferences, so intracity finals are impossible.
I'd like to see a borough-wide referendum. I'd bet that it loses in the immediate vicnity, but wins everywhere else. In Black neighrborhoods, the margin of victory would be huge.
(I can accept that this is all but a fait accompli, but there are ways to do this humanely, meaning that lives don't have to be destroyed so others can be entertained.)
The lesson seems to be if you want to have a real Downtown, where large numbers of people can gather in proximity to a transit hub, don't let people live there, or at least some people. They just changed the zoning of the block in the way of the arena from industrial, allowing some loft conversions, and now vastly more people would have to be displaced.
This problem has come up before. Are the people living there to blame? Yes and no. As my boss once told me at City Planning, no one made them sign a contract in blood acknowledging that they were moving into a commercial area adjacent to a major transportation hub before allowing them to move in. Perhaps someone should have.
NYET TO NETS!
Near the ENY stop on the LIRR would be a good spot, with available land, plus easy access on the LIRR and L train.
The Flatbush Terminals!
So, how about Atlantic Antics? :-)
The schedules still call it Flatbush Avenue. If it were Atlantic Ave, what would you call the stations at Atlantic & Nostrand or Atlantic & East New York Ave?
BTW, wouldn't there also be an opportunity for the Islanders or NJ Devils to come to Brooklyn? (Islanders have complained to Nassau County for years for a new complex and the Devils would be in search of a new home as well).
WOOHOO! You know I love it!
Brooklyn made a really bad choice at the end of the 19th C.; it sold its soul for money.
It was completely useless. Jamaica Bay was never developed as industrial port and in the end the primary facilities moved to New Jersey.
Intentional?
Anyway, there was still plenty of room for an industrial port on the Jamaica Bay shorelands even with Idlewild airport. The thing that really killed it was Robert Moses, who built the Belt Parkway and wanted to preserve the virgin lands as parks. Since the Belt was done during the depression, most of the parkland was not developed, only set aside. After the war, the city needed land for suburban development, and many of those areas originally intended for industrial development became residential.
One thing that delayed development of the Jamaica Bay port long enough for it to die was Inwood. The people of Inwood successfully lobbied NOT to become part of New York City, thus meaning that a small section of the Jamaica Bay shore would not be part of NYC. Later, Inwood did not cooperate with the city's efforts to dredge and fill there.
Notice that in the 1169x ZIP codes in the Rockaways, 11696 is missing. Inwood is 11096.
There is an interesting discussion about how to retain the fan base, which is almost exclusively auto-owning, with a move to a not very auto-friendly area, which is also a multi-seat ride from NJ!
Also there’s the question of what to call them. Is Dodgers available as a basketball team name?! LOL!
THe name is general and works anywhere, so you don't have nonsensical names like the Los Angeles Lakers or the Utah Jazz.
CP-ALLIANCE, where the Fort Wayne and Cleveland lines (both of PRR vintage) intersect is a very hot railfan spot and was made truely superb by the PRR position lights that guarded it. Having been newly painted in silver and black and then outfitted with 'C' markers for the Rule 562 running on both the Fort Wayne and Cleveland lines are truely stunning to behold. Perhaps the crowning jewel in the collection was the 3 track PRR, post-WW2 style, signal bridge mounting three high PL signals at the east end of the interlocking.
Well, last night around 3AM myself with a friend were on the westbound Capitol Limited to Alliance to meet the eastbound Capitol Limited which was running 3 hours late. I was all excited to see the bridge and show it to my railfan friend when what was I greeted not by a PRR signal bridge, but a new tubular aluminum caltilever mast with two dreaded hooded Safetran Traffic lights and a mast with a third. God damn NS. Out of some sence of spite they decided to remove three newly painted signals on a relitivly modern mast that had been upgraded with 'C' markers not 2 years before.
And I think I had been praising them for re-using the old signals when the Cleveland Line was converted to rule 526 running. Teaches me to be trusting.
I ran to the three other points of the interlocking, which helped me keep warm in the sub-sub-freezing Ohio weather, and was relieved to find the other PL's still intact, but still, the glory that was CP-ALLIANCE has been forever tainted.
Here is the old signal bridge at a time when the 'C' markers had not been placed in service.
And the fortunately still surviving PL signal at the north entrance to the interlocking.
For the benefit of those of us who don’t have a rulebook handy, can you please explain C markers and Rule 562?
Thanks,
John
The 'C' markers are super clear indications that are used in case of cab signal failure to tell trains they have absolute block protection and can proceed to the next interlocking at a speed not exceeding 79mph.
I heard that the NJ Nets are moving to Brooklyn. anyone care to comment?
The mixed up train at prospect av
Same train at jackson
Once the train got into manhattan, everytime it should have made an announcement when the doors opened, you hear this at eardrum popping volume
Does anyone know what this sound is? I've heard it on a few R142A 6 trains as well.
Gotta love the folks at Jay st, and even after they (finally) get around to updating the 2 trains, the lady is still way too loud!
No idea how it happens though. :(
Wanna talk about being WAY TOO LOUD?
I'm at 125th Street on Thursday waiting for the 6 Uptown
when all of a sudden comes the sound "This is a Manhattan Bound 5 train..."
So, I look over to the opposite platform.... No train there.
The barking was coming from the LOWER LEVEL... yet I still heard it
clear as Aquafina.
STFU Armadillos!
A rather amazing feature is that the clamshell roof with be quickly retractable to let in air (or vent smoke) in about 2 minutes, creating a clear air space 50 feet wide over the station. Natural daylight will always reach the station.
I've long felt a defect of the NY subway was the failure to try to admit natural light when possible to battle the claustrophobic effect of enclosed stations.
If anybody was up to the task, it was Calatrava.... He's been one of my favorite architects for years. I had the pleasure to hear him lecture at the Art Institute of Chicago a few years ago, and I have a number of books about his projects. He's one of the best there is.
Now if only the rest of the crap on the WTC site would have been designed as well... :-(
By the way, I have a bunch of photos of Calatrava's addition to the Milwaukee Art Museum on my site. Check it out at The Nth Ward. Go to "Photo Galleries", then "Milwaukee Art Museum".
Maybe when Calatrava is done with the WTC transit hub, we can demolish the Penn Station rat maze and hire him to design a proper replacement.
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
Certainly more in the spirit of the site than that surly David Childs and his tower-with-a-spit by SOM.
That place is gonna be packed every 9/11, right? I wonder how early you'll have to get there in order to get inside? It's gonna be a huge mess. But like you, I plan on being there!
Agreed.... Childs is the same architect who gave us the "Great Pink Penis of Hell's Kitchen", the World Wide Plaza complex at 8th Avenue and 49th Street (subject of a book and PBS documentary in 1990).
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
Have you read "High-Rise", about the building of the first new Koch-era Times Square skyscraper?
I like what I have seen, but I’m suspending final judgement until all the evidence is in!
However, even with all of that, it's still a struggle to visualize how the entire site will look when everything's built. This may be a design you have to see in 3-D. I believe it will be on display at the Winter Garden.
Also, because the memorial and the transit center were designed in parallel, I don't think any of the publicly available drawings shows both designs together. I expect you'll see that in the coming weeks.
The existing drawings do show the Calatrava terminal with the Freedom Tower. Interestingly, they omit the other skyscrapers that are supposed to be built eventually — probably a recognition that, when (if) they are ever built, they won't resemble the Liebeskind versions.
http://www.lowermanhattan.info/news/calatrava_s_wtc_transportation_29863.asp
The transit center itself is larger than either of the original tower footprints. It's hard to see it's scale in the previous photos.
Fran
http://www.nynewsday.com/news/local/manhattan/wtc/nyc-calatravavideo,0,1878061.realvideo?coll=nyc-topheadlines-span
BTW..
How do I link to the site?..
What happened to all the steelwork at Cortlandt St? The model shows a wonderfully large, airy station for the 1/9, nothing at all like the current support structure for the shell.
Why is the 1/9 train running on the left?
Where does this leave the Fulton st transit " hub" that the MTA wants to build?
That's a separate project, it's going to be connected by an underground concourse with the PATH station.
Funds were secured for both the World Trade Center PATH station and the MTA's Fulton Street complex, the Fulton street MTA complex received $750 Million.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/20/business/20compare.html
I have to take exception to one paragraph in the discussion of the Greyhound experience.
"While the LimoLiner's bathroom was clean and bright, featuring a black vase with yellow flowers and plenty of mirror space, Greyhound's had a flimsy accordion door, a small stack of moist towelettes, no sink and a chemical smell. The ride was cramped and bumpy and no food was available."
I am amazed that the reporter spent the whole trip in the restroom. Of course the ride was cramped and bumpy in there. And I doubt that any of the other carriers would have food available to anyone staying in the restroom.
Also in Tuesday's paper was an ad for a new luxury airline that will run the Boston-New York-Washington corridor. Tomlin Air is starting a new service Monday February 2nd. Their ad reads:
Say good-bye to the shuttle and experience a new standard in service aboard Tomlin Air.
When you arrive at a private terminal, a valet will park your car. You will then be met by a Tomlin Air Greeter and personally escorted aboard a luxurious Gulfstream Corporate Jet. You will receive a beverage, and then served a gourmet breakfast that you personally ordered when you reserved your flight.
Upon arrival at Washington, D.C. (Dulles), a private town car will drive you directly to your destination. In the afternoon, the car will pick you up at the location of your choice and drive you back to the private terminal.
You will be immediately escorted aboard the plane.
You will be given the beverage of your choice, and upon take-off, served gourmet hors d'oeuvres.
When you land a valet will have your car waiting for you, so that you can immediately be on your way home.
Flights depart to both Washington, D.C and Boston and return later the same day.
Seats are limited to no more than 10 passengers per flight so it is strongly advised that you place your reservation as soon as possible. Same day round trip price is $1935, including tax.
You are treated this way at home and in the office. Isn't it time you were treated this way in the air.
Seating is limited. Call 1-800-879-2345
Visit our website: www.tomlinair.com
Is it just me or does anyone else sense that, too?
I have never considered myself a common person.
To paraphrase Moe Howard's words "Speak for yourself, rodent" when Larry Fine said "We're trapped like rats"...
Speak for yourself, prole.
They really should have considered a review of the Chinese carriers.
Overall, the article was pretty fair, but they could've done more. I'm happy with it.
I'm suprised to that they failed to mention Peter Pan, or any other carriers, like Bonanza.
Mark
But Mr. McCann, LimoLiner's owner, puts the issue in perspective. "Business travel is a grind,'' he said. "Nobody really enjoys it.''
I might be the only person on the planet who feels this way, but I love business travel. I get to see the country without having to pay for it, without taking vacation days, and it's the only reason I've been able to ride as many North American rail systems as I have.
Of couse, I prefer to do my business travel by train, but distance usually necessitates cramming myself into a flying sardine can for most trips.
Mark
I might be the only person on the planet who feels this way, but I love business travel. I get to see the country without having to pay for it, without taking vacation days, and it's the only reason I've been able to ride as many North American rail systems as I have."
You aren't the only person on the planet who feels this way. I feel the same. I love travel by all modes - train is best, but buses, planes, AND ferryboats are all good too. I'll even take a taxi or a rental car if I absolutely have to. All travel is fun.
I'm think I'm a lucky man because I get just the right amount of travel - enough to get a lot of pleasure from it, but not so much that it becomes a bore.
Mark
Sydney, Australia, is magic for the transport fan - lots and lots of great ferries running all around the harbour; City Rail system that is almost a subway, and includes trains over the Sydney Harbour Bridge; unlimited tickets that include trains, buses and the ferries; frequent bus services; good rail link to the airport; long-distance trains still running too; very cheap long-distance buses - wonderful!
I'd like to ride in Sydney someday, just because it has an unusual system that defies pigeon-holing into the usual modes of "commuter rail" or "subway."
Mark
Exactly! Double-decker trains in stations that look like old-fashioned NYC subway stations (like the aptly named Museum station) are quite a sight. It is also strange to be sitting on the lower level of a train and find yourself looking *up* at the platform!
The Melbourne system is similar, and about equally extensive, but it hasn't got as much 'subway' character, as the only underground stations are quite new. And it doesn't have double-deckers. But of course Melbourne also has trams in abundance!
Mark
Just don't ride past your stop.....you risk a rather hefty fine for having an invalid ticket and the faregates wont let you out. Then again, you could just flirt with the agent and pretend to be a confused American, and they might let you out for free.....my lady friend tried this and it worked! ;-)
Travel to new places is fun. Travel up and down the Northeast Corridor, week after week, year after year, is a grind.
Mark
Mark
Mark
--Mark
THey have
1) LimoLiner
2) Shuttle
3) Acela
4) Greyhound
but they can also have:
5) Regional train business class
6) Regional train Coach
7) Chinatown bus
8) Driving
and i'm sure there are others.
As I see it...
Pros of each:
1) more upscale bus service catering to business travelers yet still affordable, with internet
2) quick (when not delayed) and no reservations needed
3) mobile office environment, can get up and walk around as much as you want
4) affordable
5) cheaper then acela, free soft drinks
6) cheapest rail option, not subject to highway congestion
7) dirt cheap
8) most flexible schedule
cons:
1) a bus is a bus, and is going to get stuck in traffic or bad weather no matter what.
2) expensive if you buy single tickets, involves going to and from the airport
3) very expensive, and very often runs late, despite being able to achieve speeds of 150
4) I found greyhound to be a rather hostile environment with unfriendly people when I once traveled on it. I prefer traveling with people who shower at least
5) slower then acela
6) not much legroom, harder to get in and out of seat
7) you get what you pay for....'nuff said
8) extremely aggervating, subject to insane congestion
Personally for me, its a tossup between limo-liner (because of free food/drink and internet) and Acela (due to freedom of movement, and the thrill of the 150 MPH parts) if the company is picking up the tab, and if its me on a personal trip, i'll drive.
Hmmm. You only traveled once. ADP scrwed me over, but I'm givin them a second chance. You should give GLI a second chance. Every trip that I've taken from NYC to Boston(all during the holiday season or some sort of vacation) were all very pleasant. Always arrived early too despite 30 min late departures. Hostile environment? Nah, only in Tn when a passenger is slitting the drivers throat. Otherwise I've never seen any confrontation at any Greyhound terminal or on any bus. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist at all, but for the most part, GLI is perfectly safe. It's the stereotype that it has that makes everyone think it's a dirty peoples service.
It is.
-Robert King
For the benefit of everyone else, here's a page which has pictures of what we're talking about for your examination:
http://gtabus.natransit.com/ttc/ttc_gal-sub-01.html
That said, the Gloucesters really WERE classy ... come on, man - YOU were around for the "NYC TRANSIT SYSTEM" ... boring as PHARK. I'm a PROUD Noo Yawker, but Toronto HAD the lead at the time in NEW elegance, NO QUESTION. Now, 1930's, 1940's ... THEN I'd agree.
It's almost 12:30, where's the next millionaire's tax cut?
Fred does have a point, though. Can't argue about the Triplexes.
The R-32s were classy - as delivered from Budd.
What am I saying maybe? PORK IS CANIBALISM!
Maybe IRM will have their 4000s out on July 4. I will be in Chicago that weekend and am planning on going to Union on the 4th.
Oh btw, June 19 is Chicago day at IRM. They will commemorate the 46th anniversary of the last streetcar run. Wanna bet 4391 will be signed up for the 22-Clark/Wentworth route?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Chuck Greene
Secaucus opening was VERY big news up here-prices of houses EXPLODED in anticipation BEFORE it opened. Interesting to see also how it is being used fairly heavy for westbound transfers also- I have known a couple of people [who are car people] who have used it to go to Newark,and they have RAVED about the experience...
I'll tell you what's happening. The 29,000 thousand riders were form NY Waterway commuters who got sick and tired of waiting on those freezing docks in the morning. They are now taking Path where the tunnel provides some warmth since NY Waterway does not want to turn on their heaters.
It doesn't surprise me that home prices EXPLODED because of the new rail extention. Home prices increased almost 20% along the Bayonne stops of the HBLR. Rail has a nice way of doing this!
People really didn't have much of a choice then.
Those incentives didn't help too much this morning, when a co-worker of mine who normally takes the ferry to Pier 11 told me the pier was closed because of ice. He took the WFC ferry instead, but then faced a long walk in the early morning cold to get to the office. (He didn't know about the free shuttle buses that run from North End Avenue to Bowling Green.)
(Too bad the station architecture itself is a hideous concrete box covered with fake stucco, but oh well.)
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
Thank you, great article! Just what I'd been hoping to find!
I'm sure for the most part there is a lot of exaggeration --- I'm sure gangs weren't running around dressed as baseball teams...
But to what extent did gangs really "rule the nights and the subways" as is depicted here. There did seem to be generally more lawlessness in those days (at least from how things are depicted now regarding the 70's in nyc), but was going out at night and walking the streets and riding the subway a very very dangerous proposition?
There's also a scene at "Union Square" where there is an area with "amusements" -- pinball machines and the like. Was there ever any time / place in subway stations where these areas existed?
There were "youth problems" on the subway, but they were more of the kind that led to the Bernhard Goetz incident--bands of four or five or six kids intent on making noise, harassing passengers, and sometimes robbing.
Kids in larger numbers causing trouble were after school incidents. About 1972 or so, I saw waiting on Avenue U Brighton Line when a train of R44s(?) went by on its way to C.I. The last car was trashed--just about every window knocked out.
Remember that The Warriors is more an adaptation of a classical story than an attempt at describing New York gangs. A not bad rendition of the attitudes of street gangs in the '50s is West Side Story, if you look past the music, dancing, and Romeo & Juliet story line.
You know what Sully---remember when I promised to kill you last---I lied---
Trivia question---What movie is the second line from?
What is the common thread between the two?
Mark
But best of all is the superb acting of James Remar in both movies: he plays the big-mouthed Warrior, Ajax (who gets busted and handcuffed to a park bench by an undercover woman cop played by Mercedes Ruehl), and in 48 hours he plays the violent psychopath Albert Gans.
I saw this film in film class once, and did you know that the police are considered to be just another gang.
In the book it is explicitly Times Square and there is a scene in the book where one of the Warriors does battle with "The Sheriff" a mechanical gun dueling sheriff that was a feature at the Times Square Arcade. In the film, if you look closely you can see the sherrif in the background in one of the scenes, but there is no dueling scene. This suggests that they shot such a scene for the film but it was cut out.
There was one time I was taking the train home from work and after entering the subway car I was waking between 2 gangs eyeing each other in a suspicious way. I'm sure it's not common. But it CAN happen. The possibility for gang violence is there and can happen.
Someone said on an adjoining thread that the scenes at Union Square actually happened at Times Square according to the book. When I saw the scene, I was thinking parts of that scene were filmed in sections of the station that are no longer open to the public. The movie is old enough to have shown those corridors before they were closed.
The Character Cyruss who is assassinated at the beginning is named for and based on a real Person who was assassinated 2400 years ago and set into motion a chain of events that Xenophon recounts.
None the less, The Warriors (Book by Sol Yurick) gives explicit details of various parts of New York and The Subway. Including Times Square, Union Square and 96th Street on the 1,2,3. Yurick carefull traced the path the Warriors took to reach Coney Island and even walked through the tunnel from 96th Street to 110th as did one of his characters in the book.
The gang business in the book is treated more realistically (1965 New York) while the more costumed depiction of gangs is more the stylized fantasy of the Hollywood Filmmakers (1980).
As I recall, they start in the West Bronx Van Cortland Park is where the meeting is, though it was actually filmed at the Firemen's Monument at 100th St. and Riverside Drive.
After the Assassination, they hide out in a cemetery and have to make a run for the Elevated train they see down to the East.
They are forced to alter their route a number of times because of confrontations with various gangs and because one elevated train in the Bronx is not running for one section.
The incident where the cop pushes one of the Warriors in front of a train happens at West 96th Street (IRT). They get separated and one of the Warriors flees through the tunnel leading up to 110th and Central Park North. The book is very descriptive of the Curve in that particular tunnel.
Other members of the gang exit the 93rd Street stairs and flee into Riverside Park. Throughout they discuss meeting at Union Square should they become separated. This is their transfer (BMT? I expect) To Coney.
The book is very precise as to how they do it. In the movie the continuity of the "acutal" subway system is a little more spotty.
Anyway Roger Hill's other movie was The Education of Sonny Carson.
Anyone remember Sylvester Stalone mugging Woody Allen on the Subway in the Film Banannas?
Also Stalone Mugs Jack Lemmon in Central Park in Prisoner on Second Avenue.
Jack Lemmon seemed to get mugged in Central Park quite a bit. I recall that it also happened in the Out Of Towners, with Sandy Dennis.
IIRC Sandy Dennis says, "Oh my God" quite a bit in that movie. I thought she was better in Up the Down Staircase.
Talking about subway toughs: how about the scene in Death Wish, when Charles Bronson blows away the muggers on the subway.
Regards,
Jimmy
The express run during the opening titles was filmed along the Fulton St. express tracks.
Ralph Ave.
Utica Ave.
Liberty Ave.
Franklin Ave.
Nostrand Ave. (three times in a row)
Kingston-Throop Aves.
Utica Ave. again, double time. If you freeze frame, you can see the never-used shell.
I have my Warriors DVD in my computer as I write this.
All of the stations have fluorescent lighting, which means they must have been upgraded in late 1978 or early 1979. When I rode on that line in March of 1978, the local stops along Fulton St. still had incandescent lighting.
That same sequence was also and still used at the end of the opening credits for "NYPD Blue".
Regards,
Jimmy
Regards,
Jimmy
Welcome to the PROFESSIONAL Cynic's club ... once you're on the "eagle chitteth" program, you'll FINALLY understand why it don't matter - republicrap, democrap, family fingering party, NO matter - gubbamint cervix is NEVER the "supine position for those 'receiving'". "Be governed accordingly." And DON'T pick up the soap - that's a $1000 a slip bar there and NOT yours to play with. (grin)
Panick TWO days before the test ... THEN make phone calls ... otherwise, they just wanna put it in and swish it around a little. THAT is ENJOYABLE compared to what you WILL be receiving if "appointed to the POSITION" ... emphasis on "position ..."
TWU brothers and sisters ... DO I LIE? :)
What would you rather do, be at the front, or sit (and stand) in the room with the light and handles?
btw: Good Luck
Can you get on the AirTrain within JFK, ride it to either Jamaica or Howard Beach, and ride it back to JFK without having to exit fare control and pay the $5.00 to reverse direction? Do they kick you off the way they do at either end of the Staten Island Ferry? Or do you just stay on the vehicle and wait a few minutes for it to reverse direction? Or do you cross an island platform to catch the next one back, the way you do at most NYC subway termini?
If you ride PATH- which is run by the same agency- to Newark, you have to get off, go to another platform, and pay again to reverse direction. (Debate rages as to whether you can turn around at Journal Square without paying again!) But at 33 and Hoboken, you can just stay on the train until they change ends and move out. Of course, at WTC, it's always been a loop, so you can just stay on there as well.
As a railfan, it's often hard to accept the fact that this system, and all others, were not designed for my enjoyment- especially not without having to shell out extra money.
I've noticed that other subway systems don't always let you turn around at the end of the line for free. In Boston, f'rinstance, I had to pay another fare to turn around at the end of the Blue Line at Wonderland and the Red Line at Ashmont. Both had side platforms without crossovers. However, both termini of the Orange Line- which had been realigned just months earlier- had island platforms. This was May 1988. Likewise, you could turn around at the Lechmere end of the Green Line.
If I remember correctly, you have to pay to turn around on the MFL at 69th Street, but not at Frankford. The Fern Rock end of the BSL is island platforms. I've never been at the Pattison end. Four years ago, I was able to ride PATCO from the Market East complex to Lindenwold and back on the same ticket. Whether you're supposed to is another question.
The Q jogged my memory as to places where you were forced off NYC subway trains at terminals (even though the trains were staying in service) and whether you could get back on or not.
One current one is the 6 at Brooklyn Bridge, but not the 1 at South Ferry. The one I particularly recall is the Franklin Avenue Line (not just as a shuttle). You had to get off at Franklin Avenue and exit on the east side. Usually you could walk around to the west side and reenter, but sometimes (like on weekends) there was a chain where you would walk around the end, and the change clerk or a station conductor might force you to leave. You then had to take a transfer, go down to the A train, stroll around the station a bit, and then walk out and get another transfer to get back on the Franklin.
At Prospect Park, if it was the shuttle, you had to exit southbound and use the crossover to reenter northbound. Same at Brighton Beach.
4 @ Utica Ave
5 @ Bowling Green and East 238th st
6 @ Brooklyn Bridge and Parkchester
E at 179th st
F at 179th st and Avenue X
G at Smith-9th and Continental Ave/FH
J @ Broad or Chambers (depending on time of day)
M @ Bay Parkway (after 2/23, Chambers st too.)
N @ 86th st
Q Local at Brighton Beach (weekdays)
R/V at Continental/FH
RPS at Broad Channel
PATH at Newark and JSQ
Add the 5 at Utica, the C at 168th and at Euclid, the weekend/night N and night R at Pacific, and the Grand Street shuttle (at either or both terminals, depending on how it's operating).
When the 1 is shut down north of 215th for track work, not only must passengers leave the train, but there's no way to switch directions without paying another fare. If you don't realize there's a GO running and you decide when you reach 215th to turn around and go home, there isn't even an agent to beg for a transfer.
One can get on Airtrain at JFK and go to Jamaica or Howard Beach and come back to JFK for free. The $5 is for entering or exiting Airtrain at those 2 stops. It is like Hoboken or 33 Street on the PATH.
With PATH you can get off at any station and catch a train going back at any station except Newark. A few times I have been at Newark and maybe the only way to get to the other side without paying is to stay on the train as it relays. Conductor advised me not to. He didn't know how long the train would be in the relay track.
Journal Square has a mezzazine where you can cross over to the other side. If you can still do that now, I don't know. I was once seeing a girl years ago who lived in Roselle, NJ. Once a week I went to the Journal Square Station with a pocket full of coins to talk to her. That didn't last too long.
If you have to railfan on the PATH, Best place to turn around would be at Harrison or Journal Square. My favorite station on the line was Grove Steet. Nice small town like area.
LOL
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH! Been answered SOOOOO many times!!!!!!!!
Can you get on the AirTrain within JFK, ride it to either Jamaica or Howard Beach, and ride it back to JFK without having to exit fare control and pay the $5.00 to reverse direction?
YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES!
Do they kick you off the way they do at either end of the Staten Island Ferry?
Huh? I've never been kicked off a Staten Island Ferry at either end.
If you ride PATH- which is run by the same agency- to Newark, you have to get off, go to another platform, and pay again to reverse direction.
That's because there are two different platforms, and the train you got off doesn't necessarily go right back into service or even back into service at all that day!
(Debate rages as to whether you can turn around at Journal Square without paying again!)
Where is this debate? Do you have a link to it? I know of no such debate. If you have a question about this, just ask.
As a railfan, it's often hard to accept the fact that this system, and all others, were not designed for my enjoyment- especially not without having to shell out extra money.
What system, PATH at Newark? That was done so long ago, way before railfans were as politically powerful as they are now.
I've never been at the Pattison end.
I have, as recently as December 29, 2003. See this photo (the other track is just out of sight on the right, across the platform).
Four years ago, I was able to ride PATCO from the Market East complex to Lindenwold and back on the same ticket. Whether you're supposed to is another question.
That IS another question!
Huh? I've never been kicked off a Staten Island Ferry at either end.
When they charged a fare, they did.
Huh? I've never been kicked off a Staten Island Ferry at either end.
You obviously haven't ridden it often enough then. As a 'fer instance', the 1530 boat from Whitehall will almost always be 'fumigated' upon arrival at St George. In theory, everyone is supposed to leave the boat at St George, walk around the terminal and re-enter through the turnstiles for a passenger count.
Peace,
ANDEE
I did the same in 2001; rode from 15-16 Sts to Lindenwold, then back to 8 St on a Philadelphia-only ticket. They have since added time-encoding; I tried it again last Sunday from 8 St to 9-10 Sts via Lindenwold, and I couldn't get out!
If you have a Senior Citizen or any reduced fare MetroCard, you must buy a $5.00 single ride card to get out of the AirTrain (and I presume to get in).
The turnstyles will only subtract a fare from a Regular MetroCard but not from a reduced fare MetroCard.
I went through this past Monday. The PA attendant said they are looking into making it possible to have the fare taken out of a reduced fare card.
At SFO International, BART ($4.95 - one way from Market Street Stations) has a free connection to their People Mover (or whatever it is called ). You are left in the terminal. There is no need to go outside the building to get in or out of the People Mover as we have to do at JFK.
Incidentally, at 6:30 AM coming from the United Airlines Station, there were 5 trains to Howard Beach before a train to Jamaica Station came along. The attendant said that there are many more workers who use the Howard Beach Branch vs the Jamaica Branch.
Of course the work of connecting to the subway is not finished at Jamaica Station for we have to go out on the street. I think (and hope) they are constructing a passageway that will connect to the subway that is more direct than the current situation.
In spite of all of the frustration - the waiting and the fare problem - it was much faster to The Bronx via the 'E' with a change to the 'D' at 7th Avenue than going via the 'A' as I had to do previously.
The AirTrain ride is pretty neat.
The employee parking lot is at the Lefferts Blvd station. This past Wednesday night on my single train sample, about 75% of the airport employees exited at Lefferts rather than going on to Howard Beach. This was at about 10:20 PM -- apparently there's quite a shift change at 10 PM.
CG
I guess one could ride around the inner loop until he gets dizzy. Just be polite to the cardboard cutouts.
Might not be as much of a problem as I had though-- I read the other day that 40% of AirTrain riders are airport employees, who presumably aren't carrying luggage either.
To be blunt about it, Airtrain was not designed for rail-fan enjoyment. But, a system for transporting people to and from JFK airport and within the terminals.
A couple of weeks ago, I drove to JFK long term parking lot, parked my car for $3.00 and rode Airtrain for free to may hearts content. But I never ventured through the turnstiles, because doing so I would have to pay a $5.00 fare. That's one way of making Airtrain enjoyable to rail fans. Another way would be taking the Q-10 or B-15 bus into JFK.
Bill "Newkirk"
Are you talking about parking there to ride Airtrain ? So far, parking at Lefferts Blvd. (long term lot) is the cheapest, outside for riding a city bus there.
Bill "Newkirk"
The Airtrain Lefferts Blvd. station is in short walking distance from Conduit and Lefferts Blvd. The area by the base of the Airtrain entrance is still being worked on which may make it a bus stop for the Long Term parking lot shuttle and probably the Q-10.
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill, have you been over at Lefferts to see how far it is from Conduits to Airtrain?
When I drove there, I was on North Conduit and hung a left on Lefferts Blvd. and headed towards Airtrain. You can see the Airtrain aerial guideway (concrete "el") and station from Conduit and Lefferts. Adjacent to Conduit is the Nassau Expressway. You know, the expressway that only goes eastbound but not westbound.
After the Nassau, there's the Airtrain Lefferts Blvd station. You would have to walk into the long term lot to access the Airtrain entrance, because there still is ongoing construction. Looks like the finished area will be a drop off point and possible bus stop for the long term shuttle bus and who knows maybe the Q-10. That's probably why the Q-10 doesn't go there yet. Construction is not finished.
Bill "Newkirk"
Until construction is finished and the Q10 is rerouted closer to the Airtrain station at Lefferts Blvd, I'd tell customers to stay on the bus until Federal Circle or the particular terminal they want to get to.
Ride all you like. If you never cross that line, you never have to swipe your MetroCard.
There are two station exits at Howard Beach, one to the subway/neighborhood and one to the parking lot. There are no faregates at the exit to the parking lot.
Someone who parks in the parking lot and rides AirTrain doesn't pay anything (beyond the parking fee itself); someone who parks in the parking lot and rides the subway pays the $5 AirTrain fee.
If you exit Airtrain at Howard Beach, it will cost $5 to exit Airtrain to the street and $7 to exit Airtrain and enter the subway. It also applies to Jamaica Station. But the subway isn't next to Airtrain there.
Plus $2 for the subway.
And another $2 to eneter the subway.
I'm not giving a complete list of every penny he spends over the course of his day. I'm discussing whether he pays the AirTrain fee or not.
If he rides the subway, obviously he pays the subway fare.
If he drives to the parking lot, obviously he pays for gas and tolls and parking.
Maybe he's stupid and won't listen to us?
Yes it is - if I recall correctly, there is (or will open after Jamaica Station rehab gets far enough) an AirTrain to Subway mezzanine
The subway is not close to or in sight of Airtrain at Jamiaca. One has to look around a little to find it. When the complex is finished one will be able to get from one to the other easily. But not yet.
I was told by red jackets I could take the LIRR overpass to get the subway. But I would have to get to the street to get it. The only difference would be I'd have to exit along Archer Ave instead of Sutphin Blvd like David did.
I would think new signs are posted by now. Better still would be a more direct connection from Subway to/from Airtrain. Something that doesn't require going outdoors.
The MTA agrees; unfortunately Jamaica Station's $386 million rehab isn't finished. When it is, you'll never have to leave the building to transfer between any rail modalities.
TO ARMS!!! TO ARMS!!! :)
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
My guess is a 60/40 split in favor of Canal.
My guess is a 60/40 split in favor of Canal.
don't you remember that line-item in their budget?
Now for the reasons why the MTA needs a proofreader and is in need of serious help. I will work from Brooklyn, into Queens, then do Manhattan and the Bronx will be the last. The Bronx itself has an interesting error.
-Flatbush Ave Terminal: You cannot transfer to the 5 train, it does not run on weekends.
-Laurelton: The Q77 bus does not run on weekends
-Flushing: The Q26 does not run on weekends
-Little Neck: The Q79 bus does not operate on weekends
-Grand Central Terminal: Does the MTA and NYCT ever realize the M98 and X25 are rush-hour only routes?
-Harlem-125th st: Does the MTA and NYCT ever realize the M98 is a rush-hour only route?
Botanic Garden and Williams Bridge stations: The Bx55 does not operate north of Fordham Plaza on weekends.
Marble Hill: The Bx20 does not run on weekends.
Spyuten Duyvil and Riverdale: No connecting Hudson River Bus service service on weekends.
-Fordham: Here is the killer mistake. Remember the text on the brochure that says that Cityticket is not valid on New Haven Trains between GCT and Fordham? Take a closer look at the stop bullet at Fordham station, it has two colors that indicate the Harlem and New Haven lines. You cannot use a New Haven train from Manhattan and get off at Fordham and vice-versa, let along using Cityticket on these trains.
DUH!
My dream is to get fired by Doanld Trump...
Q79 does not operate on Sundays, but operates on Saturdays
----
Marble Hill: The Bx20 does not run on weekends.
----
Again, Bx20 does not operate on Sundays, but operates on Saturdays
----
Botanic Garden and Williams Bridge stations: The Bx55 does not operate north of Fordham Plaza on weekends
----
Gotta feel sorry for those people having to make all those stops along Webster Avenue on a slow bus because of the lack of Bx55 service on weekends.
The Q77 is quite a distance from the Laurelton Station. The station's a lot closer to the Q85 on Conduit Avenue. BTW, the Q77 runs on Saturdays, but doesn't run on Sundays.
How come City-ticket isn't valid on New Haven line trains? Overcrowding? I wonder if it would be worth the difference in regular fare vs. city ticket to get onto a New Haven train if the next Harlem train wasn't for a while....
Speaking of....I also noticed city tickets aren't valid to/from Shea or Belmont Park. Belmont I can understand, as the station is right on the city line and the park is in Nassau, but why Shea? Do they want people to take the Subway? Is Shea shown on the map? Whats to stop me from buying a city ticket and telling the ticket-taker that i'm going to Flushing, but jump off the train at Shea? (the reverse wouldn't work obviously). Me thinks they should just simplify things and remove the Shea/fordham rules and make city ticets valid anywhere in NYC....
No New Haven line train has ever permitted a ride totally within the bounds of NYC. 125th and Fordham have always been discharge-only on inbound trains and receive-only on outbound. This dates from when it really was the New Haven Railroad. I believe now the state of CT insists on it in return for the subsidy it gives to the line.
Maybe Nassau subsidizes the buses. That would give them the right to set the rules. By not dropping off passengers in Queens, the buses get to Nassau more quickly, so Nassau riders benefit.
Because any ticket is not valid on a NH train between Fordham and GC. The NH trains only stop at Fordham and 125th Street to allow passengers to board there going north or to exit going south.
If the map's not meAnt to show connection info, why put it on it in the first place?
http://www.newsday.com/ny-kangaroo0123,0,3834939.story?coll=ny-top-headlines
I find it ironic that they say this in the Times article:
"But his legacy lives on in television. Longtime "Kangaroo" producer David Connell assisted the 1960s creation of "Sesame Street." And from his puppet work with Keeshan in the '80s, Kevin Clash moved on to The Muppets, where he has created Elmo and other beloved characters."
I'm sure that's true, but Keeshan didn't like Sesame Street and its pop-pop-pop short-attention-span appeal-to-adults children's programming. He and Fred Rogers tried to promote the patient, theme-orineted approach to children's programming.
He certainly didn't have Bob Keeshan's character. In the late '60s he toured campuses with a show which included pot jokes and other camp. Sad.
"Always use the 'magic' words : please and thank you."
Agreed, and is totally lacking in New Yorkers today. People bump into you and walk away, total ignorance. And what is so appaling is the magic words don't even cost a penny out of your pocket.
-You hold the door for them in a stor entrance and they don't say s**t.
-You get cut off in front, and they keep walking.
-Someone asks you for directions. After you help them out, the person says "OK" instead of "Thank You".
-You read a newspaper or book in the subway, and someone peers over your shoulder to look at what you are reading.
Well NYC just wouldn't be NYC if it weren't filled with pushy New Yorkers.
-You get cut off in front, and they keep walking.
Well, in NYC the proper responce if for the Cuttoffee to say "Hey, I'm walking here!"
-You hold the door for them in a stor entrance and they don't say s**t.
-Someone asks you for directions. After you help them out, the person says "OK" instead of "Thank You".
Well, you could interperate that to mean that people feel that that is expected behavior, not exceptional behavior. I mean if like you don't thank people for not mugging you or not shooting you. It's taken as a given that people will hold doors or provide directions and the exception is only the failure to do said actions.
Besides, wasn't NYC granted a geographic exemption from most forms of common courticy around the same time it was exempted from Turn on Red laws?
Well yes. When men tended to hold doors only for women and not for other men it was sexest. It implied that women were weak/fragile and also served as a vehicle for sexual stimulation (ie letting the woman walk past you and then observing carefully).
Today I think that the Hold n' Pass, where you hold the door long enough for the other person to grab it is acceptable in all situations. The Hold n' Stand, where you hold the door and stand out of the way so the next person can enter should be used only if the following person is carrying some sort of bulty item.
Christ, I must be showing my age. I just don't buy into all this p.c. crap; as far as I'm concerned, it's just plain courtesy for dudes to hold doors for chix. In fact, I'm convinced that most chix secretly like have doors held for them, as well as other little courtesies, except of course for your more extreme Feminazi (and probably rug-munching) elements.
If it is ok to hold doors open for people just because of their gender then it should be ok to pay them less for the same work, charge them different prices for the same goods, give them priority when determining custody for children, etc.
People are people and they should be treated according their stregnth and weaknesses as indivuduals not according to what demographic they happen to fall into.
That is such crap, but I don't blame it on you personally. If men though it was OK to pay women less, etc., etc., it wasn't because they were courteous to them.
This propoganda has been taught for 30 years, why should you believe differently?
Did you know that by having the woman choose from amoungst a group of male suitors actually results in the less than optimal marriage solution from the point of view of the women involved.
Did you know that by having the woman choose from amoungst a group of male suitors actually results in the less than optimal marriage solution from the point of view of the women involved.
Let me understand you. Are you arguing that women have a poor choice is they can only choose mates from among men who are interested in them?
It has been deeply ingrained in our and many other societies that women are not to be the sexual aggressors...they are to meerly pick from the males that select them first. While one might think it is better to pick and chooce amounsgt those that come begging to you, there are situations where it actually is disadventageous to the those getting courted.
Simple example. Woman A prefers man 1 to man 2 and woman B prefers man 2 to man 1. Man 1 prefers woman B to woman A and man 2 woman A to woman B. Also assume that everybody prefers marrying one of the choices than staying single. Man 1 will go and propose to woman B and man 2 to woman A. The two women are stuck with their second place choice while the men get their first place choice.
The point I was making supports the contention of two of our fellow subtalkers. Because of their (smaller size) they feel that women reject them. There is some imperical evidence that this is true.
Note my emphasis on "must," which was in my original post you refer to.
In my comment to JM's thread in which I said "I guess you're in favor of arranged marriages" (emphasis added) I was actually inquiring about what I thought (and I believe) was the direction he was taking in his non-differentiation between how you treat men and women. IOW, taken to its logical conclusion, if I flirt with a woman but not a man, I'm being sexist--instead of looking for a date or a mate, I'm claiming superiority over them. So if that's the case, the only way to marry is an arranged marriage, which some cultures still use.
But I accept that without the give and take of actual debate** neither Mike nor I had the opportunity to propose immediate counterpoints and comebacks, leaving my comment ambiguous, so I would have to state my point more succinctly, as I did above.
In point of fact, Mike did respond to my intent, which I counter-responded to, but he has so far not followed up (if he chooses to).
*And thank you for bothering to read and think about my posts.
**Also, I didn't say he used an invalid debating technique, I said it was transparent, which it was, and easily impeached.
Yes, people have been sensitized to think that way.
But do you hold the door open only because you expect to get a thank you? I'll say thank you when somebody holds open the door for me, but I don't care when the positions are reversed, in fact, I don't care if there is no thank you at all.
-You get cut off in front, and they keep walking.
That's what you get for walking too slow. The same thing works on the road.
-Someone asks you for directions. After you help them out, the person says "OK" instead of "Thank You".
So what? See my thing with the door above.
-You read a newspaper or book in the subway, and someone peers over your shoulder to look at what you are reading.
This kind of action in no way lowers the value of the newspaper or book for you.
I must say though that years ago while I was driving a cab a guy got in, I said "good morning", and he replied with "is this New York?"
I remember watching the show once and a book titled, "The Little Red Lighthouse" was read. It turns out that lighthouse is the very same one that sits underneath the George Washington Bridge. It was supposed to be torn down when the bridge was built, but the author of the book spearheaded a grassroots campaign to save the lighthouse.
And here's a photo of Jeffrey's Hook Lighthouse, taken 21 February 1999:
By the way, that is the second location for that lighthouse; it was originally erected as the North Hook Beacon on Sandy Hook, New Jersey in 1880, dismantled in 1917, and re-erected as Jeffrey's Hook Light in 1921.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Kukla is Greek and Russian for doll.
Fran was the lady, (Forget her surname) and the only human on the show.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Tom Seaver was known as Tom Terrific.
Tarrytoons also produced Mighty Mouse. They cleverly incorporated opera, of sorts, into that show. A lot of the dialogue was sung, and opera singers provided their voices.
"Subject: Plans unveiled for a new metro system in Mumbai
This is a news report in the Times of India today.
This is meant to the complementary to the existing rail-based mass transit system of the city, not as a replacement. The current system carries about 6 million people every day.
Total length - 146 km, of which 32 kms would be underground and 111 kms elevated. There would be totally six lines in the network. Additionally, Mumbai currently has an approx 150 kms network of exclusive mass transit lines. These are currently being modernized and a further 90 kms is scheduled to be added to the network by 2008 (30 kms this year itself). This would make Mumbai's urban rail network one of the largest in the world (approx. 385 kms in total by 2021 and 290 kms by 2010).
The project is proposed to be implemented in three phases (probable schedule is 51 kms by 2010, another 33kms by 2015 and a final 62 kms by 2021).
The total completion cost of the project is about 4.5 billion dollars at current exchange rates.
This is still at a relatively early stage. The techno-economic feasibility study of the project has been completed and currently,
public hearings are going on. It will require environmental clearance and most importantly, funding, before something more
concrete happens. I shall, of course, keep the group updated on future developments on this project."
See Times of India.
Note: Mumbai (English name Bombai) is the sixth largest urban agglomeration in the world, after Tokyo, Mexico City, New York, Seoul and Sao Paolo. Mumbai's existing suburban rail system has more riders than the New York subway.
Of course, it can be depressing how third-world cities can build subway lines so much faster than U.S. cities can. Of course, I realize that worker saftey is usually more lax, and there is little nimby opposition because affected residents are often voiceless, and I wouldn't want the same situations here. But it's still depressing.
Mark
Why do the political correctness fascists insist on imposing foreign spellings on us? We've been spelling their cities however we like for years and it seems no-one minds if it's a European country: one is allowed to write Naples, Milan, Rome, Turin, Athens, Salonica, Belgrade, Vienna, Munich, Prague, St Petersburg, Moscow, Alexandria (see, this one's not even in Europe), Ostend, Harlem, The Hague or Copenhagen, or indeed pronounce Paris and Calais with an "s" sound on the end. No-one objects too much if I write place names like Halicarnassus, Smyrna, Nicaea, Scutari (both the one in Turkey and the one in Albania), Constantinople, Antioch, Alexandretta, Ragusa (Dubrovnik in PC-speak), Zara, Fiume (Rijeka in PC-speak), Lyons, Marseilles, Trèves, Aix-la-Chapelle, Flushing, Stettin, Königsberg, Danzig or Breslau. But suddenly the CRE bigots decide that it's racist to write Bombay, Madras, and Calcutta. This is all getting very silly. Then you get the people who come up with countries you've never heard of like Myanmar, Kampuchea, and Lesotho, before you realise they mean Burma, Cambodia, and Basutoland. Quite frankly I don't care what people in foreign countries call their own countries and cities. If I am speaking English, I will name places in English. If I am speaking French, I will name them in French. One would not say, "I spent my vacation in Torino", so why the heck should non-European places have any special linguistic treatment?
I am not sure if this depends on whether the place is European. The general rule seems to be that you can use an English variation on a name or name ending, but if the entire name changes then you should switch to the new name.
Do you say "Istanbul", "Constantinople" or "Byzantium"? Do you say "Volgograd", "Stalingrad" or "Tsaritsin"? This a question of politics not political correctness. Normally we use the latest name. But we still refer to old names in a historical context, depending whose side we were on at the time. For instance we refer to the Battle for Stalingrad (when it was defended by our communist Russian allies in 1942), and the Fall of Constantinople (to our Islamic enemies the Ottoman Turks in 1453).
The first is a vulgar name which came about because the Turks couldn't understand Greek properly - they asked someone where they were going, they answered "eis ten polin" - "into the city" - and the Turks manage to mangle it into Istanbul. As such it isn't a name, but a misunderstanding (remember, their sultan enforced the real name until that war criminal, Mustapha Kemal, came along), so the city's name is Constantinople.
Stalingrad vs Tsaritsin is a matter of honorific names. They are a particularly bizarre category.
Turks don't seem to be your favorite people. Let me guess - you're Armenian?
I have nothing against any individual Turk. What I object to is that their country reneged on the Treaty of Sèvres, attacked its neighbours and committed genocide and ethnic cleansing.
Let me guess - you're Armenian?
No, I'm not. However, I believe that the Armenians and Greeks should get their countries back.
Don't forget the Kurds. They need a country too.
Actually, it was as recently as 1930 that Turks imposed the illiterate name. Any fool can see that it's an act of illiteracy, but fortunately the Turks only have jurisdiction over their own language (unless you let the PC fascists take over the world).
Accepting the name means accepting the occupation - I'm sorry but being of Greek origin I will NEVER accept it!!
What I want to know is what Bush Jr was up to invading Iraq - Saddam was not occupying anyone at that stage. Turkey however has been occupying parts of Greece and Armenia since 1923 and parts of Cyprus since 1974 - it is the real rogue state.
This is true as a general rule, but there are exceptions.
Some British names were recently changed to Indian names, for political reasons. Thus Bombay became Mumbai and Madras became Chennai. And there may be more changes to come. Delhi could become Dilli or Indraprastha. See The Politics of Name Changes in India.
In China, we now use Pinyin instead of Wade-Giles spellings. So the province of Kuang-tung is now spelled Guangdong, and its capital city Kwangchow is spelled Guangzhou. But the city was also known by the English name of Canton.
Oh, yes it is. The French would never consider changing any of their spellings. Could you imagine the outcry there'd be if they were told to write London, Dover, and Barcelona instead of Londres, Douvres, and Barcelone?
Rail Blue is never shy of expressing his opinions, even if controversial. However he is also very well informed!
It would be interesting if someone had something to say about the Mumbai metro, other than the name of the city.
Well, I'm pretty impressed that the Indians can build so much so quickly and so cheaply. Maybe we have quite a few lessons to learn from them.
Yes, that's what impressed me most. 146 km for $4.5 billion seems quite a bargain, especially when compared with what New York is getting for the same amount in FEMA funding. Of course labour costs in India are still very low.
Well, then we should pay them to come to Britain and the US and build our subways!
Even so the construction and operating costs would be very low, but rolling stock would be expensive because imported.
joekor@thejoekorner.com
He's a Brooklyn Tech grad and knowledgable about subways as well.
"Brooklyn Tech grads build things that work !"
A BTHS alum
BTHS used to be a bit further down Flatbush Av, closer to the Manhattan Bridge. That's why the bridge itself is featured in the school logo, because, according to my teacher, the Manhattan Bridge was a technological achievement at the time and it was appropriate to display it proudly on the school's logo.
Then they moved into the bigger building they use now. Can't remember the year off the top of my head but the first day of school in the "new building" was on...September 11. Freaky isn't it?
It was formerly an all boys school. It was a "technical" high school in that it was preparing high school grads to go into the field of work right out of high school. There were various classes that taught students all the essential skills needed in electrical work, engineering, and all that.
One of the rooms was used to actually build a house. Many of the old engineering rooms became labs for the biology students.
I even got to see floor plans of the school from the 1970s, during a time when various rooms were being converted; there was one room on the Southeast side on the third floor that became three separate rooms.
There was much more but I can't remember that much.
But over the years, the student body has dropped to around 4000 something.
Some words in the song were also changed, since the original lyrics included references to the student body being all male, when that clearly isn't the case anymore.
Are you trying to say Tech was behind it? And all this time, I've been trying to convince people it was the BoSox. :)
Ps. Not all stuy kids are nerds.
Umm, yea they are.
Let's all not resort to stereotyping please.
But as Lincoln told me, Stuy kids are on two extremes: extremely nerdy (to the point you get kicked out for getting a 93 average...) to the extremely apathetic.
What I hated was the next year I wanted to go to Tech, but had to take the test all over again. I didn't get that. If I was in Science, you had my previous score, why have to take the damned test again?
All kidding aside, I see students from Bronx Sci. every AM on the D train. They seem no better or worse than other students as a group. It's also nice to know that the same rivalry that existed 30 years ago (between Tech, Stuy and Brnx Sci) still exists today.
A neighbor of mine took the test and was specifically told he could only go to Brooklyn Tech with his score, not BHSS or Stuy.
1. He told me he wanted to go to Stuy.
2. He took the test.
3. He told me he got into Brooklyn Tech but not Stuy.
4. He's now in Brooklyn Tech.
These are all things I have observed.
Good reason.
I certainly couldn't supply you with a written policy, but I didn't provide "unsubstantiated prattle" either.
I think when multiple people with first hand knowledge are making the same claim, I think that's pretty safe to assume the claim is valid.
http://www.bthsnews.org/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=154
I tried to find the original link to the article, but I couldn't find what publiation it came out of.
Can't say the same about another certain someone...I think you know who I'm talking about! Her name starts with "L" ... ;)
Yes it is. People can choose Tech as a first choice and get into Tech with a maximum score, but no one gets rejected from Tech and gets into Stuy or Sci, THOSE are the facts, the reverse works all the time.
In 1996 they changed policy from taking the exam at your first choice school to taking it in one's own borough. Apparently too many people were taking the exam in Battery Park City.
I can't find the SSHSAT score statistics now, all I can find are SAT scores, at least it's better than claiming to know all the facts but providing none.
Tech: Verbal 568* Math 620
Stuy: Verbal 679* Math 721*
I guess you just can't help sounding like an overgrown bully despite the facts. It must be genetic.
*Averages, that's why they're not divisible by 10 even though all SAT scores now are
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....Transit Tech has a better Physics teacher than Stuy! [and we didn't even have Physics until just last year]!
Not that I like friction problems (even my teacher hates friction) but at least I know how to do them...but oddly enough, there wasn't a single friction problem on my whole final, just a whole bunch of centripetal and projectile motion questions.
You lucky bastard....
The Hell with Mr. Nurse!
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Oh that's the University of Birmingham (so not exactly real rough hi-rise stuff) - the pointy tower is allegedly a copy of one in Siena, Italy.
Actually when the school moved to its current site in the 1930s, they removed one of the verses from the School Song on the grounds that it was no longer strictly true. It began something along the lines of:
"Here no classic grove secludes us;
here abides no cloistered calm."
Now of course, it's in an averagely nice suburban location, hidden away by a high hedge.
My school is on top of a mountain surrounded by just single-family homes.
The location looks beautiful.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
I dare you to say that again, this time in bold-face font.
AND I DON'T CARE ABOUT THE DAMN CONDUCTORS!
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Thanks.
(Transit content - One of our Physics textbooks has an old photo of two R-62 #4 trains sitting at Woodlawn.)
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
BY the way, any luck at Stuy or Bx Sci in getting hockey to become a PSAL sport again? Just curious...
You think the police would believe he was acting in self-defense after what that gang member did on the (W) train :)
That's exactly what I did to a mugger back in 1987. My box cutter makes a clean slash across both eyes so fast, he dropped me.
Not to mention the fact that a handful of boxcutters changed the course of history not too long ago.
Elias
I'll let him answer that, but for one thing, you wouldn't have to board a bus in Harlem.
Seriously, how long did it take? I assume this was at least half a day?
It's only 7.5 miles. Any healthy person can do it in 2.5 or 3 hours.
Please put your brain in gear before talking next time!
BMCC is at 199 Chambers Street, on the northeast corner of it and West Street, well SOUTH of Canal Street
Stuyvesant High School since 1992 has been at 345 Chambers Street, on the northwest corner of Chambers and West Street, thus directly across the street from BMCC.
So it's not that you're stupid, it's just that you're living in the past. Contemporize man!
The former Stuyvesant High School. It's a different school now (don't remember the name offhand).
Why do you always have to make ASSumptions? Especially on such trivial matters where facts can be easily attained. You don't contibute anything to the discourse by doing so and you only make yourself look like a fool.
So where is Harvey Milk? Or for that matter High School for Health Professions and Human Services?
If I'm wrong about a location, Fine. I've made mistakes before and likely will make them again. But if someone doesn't tell me, I'll never know and the next time I'm asked where a particular school is, I'll say the same thing again.
Or for that matter High School for Health Professions and Human Services?
This is the answer to your question of: "If Stuyvesant High School is at 345 Chambers Street, then what school is around Union Square?" That is the school that is in its old building.
Long Island City HS is another school that moved, they moved from 41st Ave/29th st to a brand new building on Broadway/west of 21st st in Astoria some time ago back in 1998. The old school is used for something else.
Well that rules me out....guess I'd have to put a day aside to do a trip like that. ;-)
Now, a good walk is one like I did once from Old Bridge (after hitching over the Outterbridge Crossing) to Princeton Junction. I've mentioned it before. Lasted all day and into the night. Wound up raining the last couple of miles but it was summer anyway. The wonder of hearing speeding trains passing out of distance yet making their presence known for miles and miles around the flatlands. Portions of the walk were definitely surrealistic. Certain industrial districts out there...almost fantastic to come upon, monstrous building blocks spreading deep into the night, dark and with almost sinister intent. A little scary. Maybe I slowed down the pace a little, looking down those long assed alleys....Then comes the train whistle over it all, strident, moving, like coming across a familiar face in a crowd of milling strangers.
I'm strolling again into the night.
Anyway, yeah, I do recommend long walks. Not around a gym track though. That's a waste. If at all possible, hit the bricks.
My two longest "urban" walks:
1) Freeport to Massapequa Park....bike got a flat, didn't have repair kit, didn't have a lock to lock it up and take the train home, didn't have my bike 'n ride permit. Talk about being unprepared. So I walked along Merrick Road almost the whole way with the bike. It took forever. It felt like an eternity.
2) The prizewinner: the length of Broadway in Manhattan. LIRR to Penn, the 1&9 to Marble Hill/225th, walked Broadway to the Battery. Definitely got to see a lot of interesting stuff that day. It took all day (during spring) and I took my time on purpose so I could see stuff. The worst part was Times Square.
Of course being into hiking, i 've taken longer walks through the woods (18 miles in one day I think was my max)
(Or restate your accomplishment as having walked the entire length of Broadway on Manhattan Island. That you've certainly done.)
Did you get my email yesterday, BTW?
I've even done a walk from my house in Woodside all the way to Yankee Stadium (using the Triboro) along 125th and Lenox.
Hmmm ... boarding a bus in Harlem. Yes, I'm sure that had a whole ot to do with him getting assaulted.
If I seem a bit sensitive... It's because I am for obvious reasons.
That's specious reasoning. I can use a similar argument to say that this proves the need for abandoning LaGuardia and using only JFK and Newark.
Certainly not SubTalkers. SubTalkers are very wise.
Certainly not SubTalkers. SubTalkers are very wise.
Lashon Hora?
Why doesn't the MTA honor the little airplane symbol on their own maps, take a couple of seats off the peak flight hour M60, and get the luggage out of the way?
Regards,
Jimmy
Regards,
Jimmy
In fact, the artics can make tighter turns than 40' buses, because the front section is 35'.
I live on the Upper West Side. GCT is in the wrong direction. Aside from a cab, the M60 is by far the easiest and fastest way for me to get to the airport.
Most people have no idea what Manhattan is like. They picture it in their minds and see what we would call midtown and downtown.
There is another way:
Go to 42nd st/TS and change for the N and W, take either train to Astoria Blvd/Hoyt Ave and wait for the same M60 you rode on at the stop closest to the plaza and Burger King on the SE side of the station.
I wonder how many people actually take the M60 to Randall's Island, Queens and LaGuardia? I would think most casual customers get off at 125 Street before the bus goes across the Triboro Bridge.
The M60 was created to streamline the M35 and create an attractive customer base for Laguardia Airport customers as an alternative to taking the train to Roosevelt/74th st and change for the Q33 or Q45 bus there. The M35 used to end at Hoyt Ave subway but that was no longer needed with the new M60.
I believe they were two separate islands, until the channel between them was filled in.
According to an article on page 1 of section 2 of the New York Times on May 31, 1974, the landfill between Randall's and Ward's Islands was done at that time.
Not noted in the article was that the landfill would never be finished, the Little Hell Gate survives as a small bay between the islands. Apparently the source from which the earth was excavated dried up. That source? Some subway being built under Second Avenue.
M60 - serves Randall's and Ward's Island(s), extended and replaces Q19 in Queens
M35Ltd - stops at Broadway, St Nick, Lenox, Park, Lex along 125th St, then non-stop to all terminals at LGA
Now your coming closer to my way of thinking!
Discontinue all Shuttle Service out of LGA, and take AMTRAK!
: ) Elias
But I do think a direct subway route to the airport wouldn't generate nearly the level of tension that the M60 creates (see my other post).
Is it my imagination, but are incidents of violence on New York's transit system on the increase?
By the way, I noticed looking at some Medicaid data that New York State has 25 percent of the residents of Mental Hospitals on Medicaid in the U.S., and about the same share of residents of other facilities for the mentally ill. Most mentally ill people end up on Medicaid, as their incomes are low.
What does this mean?
1) New York State makes people crazy?
2) New York State actually does something for the mentally ill, so other states (including Peter Rosa's faves) send money (and steal our money) by sending them here?
Given that New York State's suicide rate is about at the bottom nationally, I vote for #2.
Yes, and no. There are several factors at play here. And to tell you the truth, the big mental hospitals were probably less expenisve per patient than the current solution.
Nonetheless, Issues of personal dignity and individual rights where the biggest push to eliminating state institutions, and the other really big factor was the development of such fine and effective psychotropic medications. With these meds people can live more of a normal and productive life without being confined to an instituation.
That being said, the psychotropic classes of medications have side effects, many of them disagreeable, so that many patients will, when they feel a little better, stop taking their meds and end up bouncing off the walls or falling between the cracks and out onto the street.
Admission requirements to state institutions are more demanding, since the policy is to assist people at the least restrictive levels possible.
Elias
Your blaming of Reagan is nothing more than blind anti-Reaganism. The man could have cured cancer, but Democrats would still not like him. He needs a coin or some such shit, but not the dime.
Anyway, Reagan was cool, except for that PATCO business, but that was not so bad because back when I was sober I heard Carter wanted to do it too. But Carter is history's greatest monster.
MALAISE FOREVER
What I don't understand is the utter contempt some people have for Reagan. Their given reasons are usually lies and misconceptions, so the true basis for it still eludes me.
Maybe that he told a lot of lies for political reasons.
The only theory I tend to believe was that his policies were stongly conservative and were proven right far more often than not.
"The only theory I tend to believe was that his policies were stongly conservative and were proven right correct far more often than not."
I am quite aware of everything Reagan did. I simply don't interpret his actions as you do.
I shouldn't blame Democrats exclusively for creating debt. The Republicans have controlled the House for nearly 10 years and even they cannot stop the culture of spending which pervades our national government.
He had a surplus and an intern to play with! Shhhhhhhh
If you get a $50 dollar a week raise, but increase your weekly expenses by $70, you're quickly going to be in debt.
When you make gobs of money, even 60% of that is not a burden, because there's still a huge sum left over. The poorer someone is, the more every penny is valuable.
That having been said, since the richest 1% pay the most taxes, any tax cut will ALWAYS benefit the rich more than any other. It doesn't mean it doesn't benefit anyone else.
The top 1 percent pays more than 37 percent of all income taxes. And that includes a lot of people who aren't "filthy rich".
You should quantify "filthy rich." The top 1% consists of people who make at least $230,000.
By that reasoning, someone who makes $1 million a year can have ten cars and a compound and not be rich.
Your father was lucky. A lot of people unemployed during the Reagan years had a harder time of it.
Count your blessings.
You're correct about 1983, but you are not correct about lower unemployment than under Carter.
1977 7.1%
1978 6.1%
1979 5.8%
1980 7.1%
1981 7.6%
1982 9.7%
1983 9.6%
1984 7.5%
1985 7.2%
1986 7.0%
1987 6.2%
1988 5.5%
It was a lot better when you didn't post to SubTalk, go on another, this time permanent hiatus.
Damit, had we just been able to prop up the Shaw this whole middle eastern unpleasantness of the last 25 years could have been averted.
subfan
Don't forget the movie Titticut Follies, which incidently is the only American film banned from release for reasons other than obscenity or national security.
Also don't forget that famous Supreme court decision that rules that someone could not be forcibly committed unless they represented a danger to themselves or others. Remember, back before 1962 or so people could and WERE committed for any sort of mildly dievent behavior. That old movie cliche of the men in white shirts and butterfly nets going after some poor sucker who had seen some incredible sight that nobody would believe was not a joke.
MALAISE FOREVER
MARGE FOREVER
One of the few people who could ever make me agree with the TUC...
Why do you keep asking? We already told you. Stop being so stupid so I don't have to lay the smack down when you come to visit NYC :)
The idea of you being a Republican cheapens it enough as it is.
Sure, Bush won't repay the money back to those disgraced Enron scumbags who fund his campaign machine. That's is why Bush is Corporate bigwig friendly and anti-white collar and anti-blue collar worker. Killing of a 50+ year Americal tradition of paying workers 1.5X for overtime in excess of 40 hours in a work week is one prime example.
Pig has expressed highly libertarian, not liberal ideologies. There is a HUGE difference between the two.
(Not to mention the large number of serial killers that popluate Cali)
Don't insult Tyson, I used to eat his chicken all the time.
Don't blame my favorite states for sending their mentally ill to New York, blame New York for not doing anything about the situation. After all, for the price of a one-way bus ticket from Charlotte to New York, you can buy a one-way bus ticket from New York to Charlotte. Of course, in real life, New York's (taaxpayer-funded) health care system likes the arrangement too much to even consider sending them back, as more mentally ill equals more Medicaid money.
We want to know.
Chuck Greene
If it is your opinion that he was assaulted because he was wearing a yarmulke (which is what I am inferring from the indirect statements in this thread), why not just say so? There's no need to drop obscure hints.
If true, that would be sad but not totally surprising. It would also be completely relevant. This is a transit-related web site and we're talking about the facts of a crime that occurred on a transit system. It would be equally relevant if he were wearing a turban or any other item related to his religion.
David ought to confirm or deny from Pittsburgh. It won't wreck his vacation. He doesn't have to go into details.
We even saw it on one of the steeplecab D type trips in September during an ugly incident at Kings Highway.
Please explain.
I was asked at the time not to post this to Subtalk, but I guess it won't do any damage now.
I'm not gonna be specific until he decides to reveal himself.
I boarded a crowded M60 at Lenox Avenue (coming off a 3 train) bound for LGA Friday morning around 8:15 or 8:30, aiming to (barely) catch a 9:20 flight (standby -- my ticketed flight was at 10:55). After climbing onto the bus, I attempted to move towards the back to make room for others, pushing past one or two people in the process, but I gave up around the first set of forward-facing seats. I didn't have much to hold onto, and as the bus moved, I accidentally bumped into the person in front of me, who gave me a nasty glare and began a brief conversation, which ended with a punch in the face.
I yelled to the driver to call the police, and others told him not to open the doors. He pulled up at the next stop and opened the doors (claiming that he was following procedure and that he hadn't witnessed anything himself), and the perpetrator ran like the wind.
Eventually the police showed up and I filed a report. Most of the passengers had already gone, but one stuck around to offer her eyewitness report.
That's about it. Oh, and I should warn everyone to not bother trying to find an ice pack in the US Airways terminal at LGA, because there are none. ("We do not administer medical care" is the response I got from the gate agent.) I had to get a cup of ice at McDonald's and transfer it to a bag graciously offered by Hudson News.
The basic problem is that the M60 has two distinct ridership demographics that clash. It carries (mostly white) passengers with luggage to and from the airport, and it's a 125th Street crosstown for (mostly black) Harlem residents. Crosstown passengers get annoyed at all the people taking up lots of space with their luggage. Airport passengers get annoyed that the Harlem residents cram onto the M60 if it comes first when most could just as easily use the Bx15, M100, or M101, and that they don't offer their seats to people with luggage. It's a tense situation to begin with, and one with potential racial undertones. Most people are able to contain their tension or express it verbally, but a few find it hard to restrain themselves physically.
The first time I rode the M60 (from LGA that time), I was taken aback by the many people who boarded through the rear door all along Astoria Boulevard. One of them had the chutzpah to complain that my luggage was taking up too much space. In response to that ride, I offered a suggestion to nyc.transit, which I reiterate here:
Turn the M60 into an airport-only route. On trips to the airport, there are no dropoffs before reaching the airport. On trips from the airport, all stops are discharge-only. If there is demand (farepaying demand, that is) for a service between Astoria and Harlem, extend the M100 or Q19. (Pittsburgh's 28X Airport Flyer, which I rode Sunday evening, works essentially that way. The regular $2.25 fare is charged.)
I'm curious about something, NYPD. Would you mind sending me an email? Thanks.
Bad, bad move. If the driver really was following procedure, the procedure stinks. If he wasn't, he should be disciplined.
Best wishes for a quick de-purplification of your eye.
CG
Lets him get sent down for longer.
Somehow, I suspect he was following standard procedure.
It's hard to say. Allowing the driver to open the doors also allows the perpetrator to flee, which is precisely what happened here. On the other hand, it's also been pointed out that keeping the doors closed also can keep a violent and possibly armed criminal ona crowded bus. There are no easy answers.
Regards,
Jimmy
Here's something for that: Sorry for the big html dump here but look at all the ways to get there.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
LaGuardia Ground Transportation Services
LGA to Manhattan
LGA to Queens, Brooklyn, The Bronx, Staten Island
LGA to Suburbs
Connections Between Airports
Ground Transportation Information is available
in the baggage claim/arrival areas of all terminals. All service arrangements
can be made at these counters. Services listed include those represented
at Ground Transportation Information counters as well as public transportation
options that require no more than one connection. Travel times are approximate
and can vary based on time of day and traffic conditions.
To insure prompt service, reservations for accessible transportation vehicles
should be made at least 24 hours in advance for all shared ride transportation
options.
ToServiceApproximate Frequency & Travel Time
Midtown Manhattan/East Side
Midtown Manhattan/East Side
Grand Central Terminal
(Vanderbilt Ave. and 42nd Streets)
Transfer available to hotels
between 27th and 59th Streets.
New York Airport Service Express Bus
(718) 875-8200
$10 - $12
Every 15 - 30 minutes
7:20 AM to 11:00 PM
30 - 45 minutes,
longer at peak hours
Midtown Manhattan/West Side
Port Authority Bus Terminal (42nd Street & 8th Avenue-Airport Bus Center).
New York Airport Service Express Bus
(718) 875-8200
$10 - $12
Every 20 minutes
7:20 AM to 11:00 PM
30 - 45 minutes, longer at peak hours
Midtown Manhattan/West Side
NY Penn Station
(31st - 33rd Streets and 7th Avenue)
New York Airport Service Express Bus
(718) 875-8200
$8-$10
Every 60 minutes
8:00 AM to 8:00 PM
40 minutes, longer at peak hours
Manhattan
Anywhere between Battery Park and 227th Street including all hotels.
SuperShuttle Manhattan
Shared mini-bus
(800) 358-5826
$15 - $22
On demand
7:00 AM - 11:30 PM
Manhattan
M60 Bus (New York City Transit Authority) to 125th St. Can connect with 2,3,4,5,6,1,9,A,C and D subway trains
Bus: (718) 330-1234
Bus: $2.00 exact fare
Subway: $2.00
Cash, token or Metrocard required (Free transfer between bus and Subway
with Metrocard)
Every 30 minutes
4:50 AM to 1:00 AM
Manhattan
(via connection with NYC subway)
Q33 (Triboro Coach) from all terminals
except Marine Air Terminal. Connects with E,F,G,R,V and 7 subway trains.
Bus: (718) 335-1000
Subway: (718) 330-1234
Bus: $1-$2.00 exact fare
Subway: $2.00
Cash, token or Metrocard required (Free transfer between bus and Subway
with Metrocard)
Every 10 - 20 minutes
24 hours
Manhattan
(via connection with NYC subway)
Q47 (Triboro Coach) from Marine Air Terminal.
Connects with E,F,R,V and 7 subway trains.
Bus: (718) 335-1000
Subway: (718) 330-1234
Bus: $1-$2.00 exact fare
Subway: $2.00
Cash, token or Metrocard required (Free transfer between bus and Subway
with Metrocard)
Every 10 - 20 minutes
24 hours
Manhattan
Taxi
$16-$26 plus tolls
Uniformed Taxi Dispatcher
Available during flight hours at taxi stands
20 - 30 minutes,
longer at peak hours
Manhattan
Private Limousine/Van Service
Transportation Info counter at Airport
Prices vary
On demand
20 - 30 minutes,
longer at peak hours
ALL INFORMATION IS BASED ON INFORMATION AVAILABLE AT TIME OF PUBLICATION. SUBJECT TO CHANGE WITHOUT NOTICE.
Ground Transportation Information is available in the baggage claim/arrival areas of all terminals. All service arrangements can be made at these counters. Services listed include those represented at Ground Transportation Information counters as well as public transportation options that require no more than one connection. Unless indicated as "Private Limousine/Van Service" or "Taxi", the fares listed are per person and are for services in which passengers share the use of a vehicle with others. Group discounts and/or more expensive service may be available. Travel times are approximate and can vary based on time of day and traffic conditions.
LGA to Manhattan
LGA to Queens, Brooklyn, The Bronx, Staten Island
LGA to Suburbs
To
Service
Approximate Frequency &
Travel Time
Queens
ETS
Air Shuttle Shared Door-to-door service
(718) 221-5341
$17 - $40
On demand
New
York Airport Service Express Bus to Jamaica Station
(Sutphin Boulevard and Archer Avenue)
(718) 875-8200
New York Airport Service Express Bus: $5
Every 60 Minutes
7:00 AM to 8:00 PM
30 Minutes
M60 New York City Transit Authority Bus
to Astoria Boulevard. Limited Stops. Can connect to other local buses and
the N and W subway train.
(718) 330-1234
Bus: $2.00
Subway: $2.00
Cash, token or Metrocard required (Free transfer between bus and Subway
with Metrocard)
Every 30 minutes
4:50 AM to 1:00 AM
Q33 Triboro Coach Bus to Queens. Makes
all local stops. Can connect to other local buses and E,F,G,R,V and 7 subway
trains.
Bus: (718) 335-1000
Subway: (718) 330-1234
Bus: $1.00-$2.00
Subway: $2.00
Cash, token or Metrocard required (Free transfer between bus and Subway
with Metrocard)
Every 10 - 20 minutes
24 hours
Q48 New York City Transit Authority Bus
to Queens. Makes all local stops. Can connect to other local bus services
and the 7 subway train.
Bus: (718) 330-1234
Subway: (718) 330-1234
Bus: $2.00
Subway: $2.00
Cash, token or Metrocard required (Free transfer between bus and Subway
with Metrocard)
Every 15 minutes
5:30 AM to 12:30 AM
Q47 Triboro Coach Bus from Marine Air
Terminal. Makes all local stops. Can connect to other local buses and E,F,G,R,V
and 7 subway trains.
Bus: (718) 335-1000
Subway: (718) 330-1234
Bus: $1.00-$2.00
Subway: $2.00
Cash, token or Metrocard required (Free transfer between bus and Subway
with Metrocard)
Every 10 - 20 minutes
24 hours
Super
Shuttle Manhattan
Shared door to door service
(212) 258-3826
Fare $19
On demand
Taxi (Shea Stadium Area) (Metered)
Uniformed Taxi Dispatcher
$7 - $9
On demand
10 minutes
Taxi (Main Street, Kew Gardens) (Metered)
Uniformed Taxi Dispatcher
$10 - $14
On demand
10 minutes
Private Limousine/Van Service
Ground Transportation Info counter at Airport
Prices vary
On demand
10 minutes
Brooklyn
ETS
Air Shuttle Shared door-to-door service
(718) 221-5341
$17-$25
On demand
Super
Shuttle Manhattan
Shared door to door service
(212) 258-3826
Fare $19
On demand
Taxi (Downtown) (Metered)
Uniformed Taxi Dispatcher
$17-$21
On demand
30 minutes
Taxi (Coney Island)(Metered)
Uniformed Taxi Dispatcher
$36-$39
On demand
45 minutes
Private Limousine/Van Service
Ground Transportation Info counter at Airport
Prices Vary
On demand
30 - 45 minutes
Bronx
ETS
Air Shuttle Shared Door-to-door service
(718) 221-5341
$27
On demand
Super
Shuttle Manhattan
Shared door to door service
(212) 258-3826
Fare $19
On demand
Taxi (Co-op City) (Metered)
Uniformed Taxi Dispatcher
$19-$21 + tolls
On demand
30 minutes
Taxi (149th Street and 3rd Ave.) (Metered)
Uniformed Taxi Dispatcher
$12-$14 + tolls
On demand
20 minutes
Taxi (Riverdale) (Metered)
Uniformed Taxi Dispatcher
$21-$24 + tolls
On demand
30 minutes
Private Limousine/Van Service
Ground Transportation Info counter at Airport
Prices vary
On demand
20 - 30 minutes
Staten
Island
ETS
Air Shuttle Shared door-to-door service
(718) 221-5341
Fares range from $30 to $35
On demand
Super
Shuttle Manhattan
Shared door to door service
(212) 258-3826
Fare $30
On demand
Taxi (New Dorp) (Metered)
Uniformed Taxi Dispatcher
$40-$43 + tolls
On demand
60 minutes
Taxi (Victory Boulevard) (Metered)
Uniformed Taxi Dispatcher
$38-$41 + tolls
On demand
60 minutes
Private Limousine/Van Service
Ground Transportation Info counter at Airport
Prices vary
On demand
60 minutes
LGA to Manhattan
LGA to Queens, Brooklyn, The Bronx, Staten Island
LGA to Suburbs
To
Service
Approximate Frequency & Travel Time
Long Island, NY
Classic Airport Shuttle Shared door-to-door services
(800) 666-4949 or (631) 567-5100
$27 - $129
On demand
New York Airport Service Express Bus to Long Island Rail Road (LIRR) at Jamaica Station, Queens
New York Airport Service Express Bus: (718) 875-8200
LIRR: (718) 217-5477
New York Airport Service Express Bus: $5 Plus LIRR
Every 60 minutes
7:00 AM to 8:00 PM
Taxi (Nassau County)(Metered)
Uniformed Taxi Dispatcher
The amount on meter from airport to NYC limits PLUS double the amount from city limits to final destination.
Taxi (Suffolk County)
Uniformed Taxi Dispatcher
The price is negotiated between passenger and driver.
Private Limousine/Van Service
Ground Transportation Info counter at Airport
Prices vary
On demand
Westchester
Republic/Westchester Express
(800) 532-3730 or (914) 592-9200
On demand
All County Express
(800) 914-4223 or (914) 381-4223
$35-$58
On Demand
Connecticut Limousine
LCC
(800) 472-5466 or (203) 878-6867
$39-$40
Shared ride service to New Rochelle every 1-2 hours 9:30 AM - 12:00 AM.
Shared ride service to Rye & White Plains every 1-2 hours 9:30 AM - 11:30 PM.
Prime Time Shuttle of Connecticut
(800) 733-8267
$29 - $30
Frequent Service
New York Airport Service Express Bus to Metro-North Trains at Grand Central Terminal
New York Airport Service Express Bus: (718) 875-8200
Metro-North: (212) 532-4900 or
(800) METRO-INFO (Outside NYC)
New York Airport Service Express Bus: $10
Plus Metro-North
Every 15 - 30 minutes
6:40 AM to 11:00 PM
Taxi (Metered)
The amount on meter from airport to NYC limits PLUS double the amount from city limits to final destination.
Uniformed Taxi Dispatcher
Private Limousine/Van Service
Ground Transportation Info counter at Airport
Prices vary
On demand
Upstate NY
New York Airport Service Express Bus to Metro-North Trains at Grand Central Terminal
New York Airport Service Express Bus: (718) 875-8200
Metro-North: (212) 532-4900 or
(800) METRO-INFO (Outside NYC)
New York Airport Service Express Bus: $10 Plus Metro-North
Every 20 - 30 minutes
6:40 AM to 11:00 PM
New York Airport Service Express Bus to connecting bus service at the Port Authority Bus Terminal (PABT)
New York Airport Service Express Bus: (718) 875-8200
PABT Bus Information: (212) 564-8484
New York Airport Service Express Bus: $10 Plus connecting bus service
Every 20 - 30 minutes
6:40 AM to 11:00 PM
Taxi
The price is negotiated between passenger and driver.
Uniformed Taxi Dispatcher
Private Limousine/Van Service
Ground Transportation Info counter at Airport
Prices vary
On demand
Connecticut
Connecticut Limousine LLC
(800) 472-5466 or (203) 878-6867
$45-$66
Shared ride service to Meriden, North Haven, New Haven, Milford, Bridgeport, Nowalk, & Stanford every 1-2 hours 9:30 AM - 12:00 AM.
Shared ride service to Hartford, Farmington, Waterbury, Southbury, and Danbury every 1-2 hours 9:30 AM - 11:30 PM.
Prime Time Shuttle of Connecticut
(800) 733-8267
$37 - $57
Frequent Service
New York Airport Service Express Bus to Metro-North Trains at Grand Central Terminal
New York Airport Service Express Bus: (718) 875-8200
Metro-North: (212) 532-4900 or
(800) METRO-INFO (Outside NYC)
New York Airport Service Express Bus: $10 Plus Metro-North
Every 20 - 30 minutes
6:40 AM to 11:40 PM
Taxi
The price is negotiated between passenger and driver.
Uniformed Taxi Dispatcher
Private Limousine/Van Service
Ground Transportation Info counter at Airport
Prices vary
On demand
New Jersey
New York Airport Service Express Bus to connecting
bus service at the Port Authority Bus Terminal (PABT)or to Penn Station
New York Airport Service Express Bus: (718) 875-8200
PABT Bus Information: (212) 564-8484
New York Airport Service Express Bus: $10 Plus connecting bus service
Every 20 - 30 minutes
6:40 AM to 11:00 PM
SuperShuttle Manhattan to NJT Penn Station
(34th Street & 7th Avenue)
SuperShuttle (800) 258-3826
NJT: (973) 762-5100
$13.50 + NJT
On Demand
24 hours
Taxi
The price is negotiated between passenger and driver.
Private Limousine/Van Service
Ground Transportation Information counter at Airport
Prices vary
On demand
Pennsylvania
New York Airport Service Express Bus to connecting bus service at the Port Authority Bus Terminal (PABT)
New York Airport Service Express Bus: (718) 875-8200
PABT Bus Information: (212) 564-8484
New York Airport Service Express Bus: $10 Plus connecting bus service
Every 20 - 30 minutes
6:40 AM to 11:00 PM
SuperShuttle Manhattan to Amtrak Penn Station
(34th Street & 7th Avenue)
Amtrak (800) USA-RAIL
$13.50 +Amtrak
On Demand
24 hours
Taxi
The price is negotiated between passenger and driver.
Uniformed Taxi Dispatcher
Private Limousine/Van Service
Ground Transportation Information counter at Airport
Prices vary
On demand
ALL INFORMATION IS BASED ON INFORMATION AVAILABLE AT TIME OF PUBLICATION. SUBJECT TO CHANGE WITHOUT NOTICE.
Ground Transportation Information is available in the baggage claim/arrival areas of all terminals. All service arrangements can be made at these counters. Services listed include those represented at Ground Transportation Information counters as well as public transportation options that require no more than one connection. Unless indicated as "Private Limousine/Van Service" or "Taxi", the fares listed are per person and are for services in which passengers share the use of a vehicle with others. Group discounts and/or more expensive service may be available. Travel times are approximate and can vary based on time of day and traffic conditions.
LGA to Manhattan
LGA to Queens, Brooklyn, The Bronx, Staten Island
LGA to Suburbs
So, some people along a certain road seem to have a problem with "others" daring to enter the domain eh?
Bunch of dumb ass ulmost undoubtedly racist creedist narrow minded yammering fish eyed greasy haired starch eatin' gap jawed urban hayseed obnoxious ignorant smelly overblown yard bird suckin' motherf****in' Potemkin House specimens of the human race aught to go and lay down in front of a speeding train and consider their deranged folly. A pox upon them, their kith and kin, and their ancestors.
I agree about the M60 bus, as that's the bus I took to/from LGA on my first few visits to NYC. I was actually shocked that the bus ran local almost the entire route... Even if NYC hadn't figured out how to build a subway line to the airport yet, you'd think they'd at least have a convenient express bus. If it were up to me, the M60 would run express along the route between Morningside Heights and LGA, stopping only at transfer points to the subway (Broadway, Lenox, Lexington, and Astoria). Maybe that would cut down on the thug element, or maybe not... But at the very least, it would speed up service and reduce crowding.
Shalom,
-- David
Anyway, I'd imagine that if the city tried to run an express bus service to the airport, the private bus companies would squawk and screech like a herd of wounded elephants.
BTW: My sympathies to David of Bway. May your assailent rot in a dank, stinking, garbage strewn corner of hell.
Fred? Got yer EARS ON? :)
I grew up in the Bronx ... I grew up in Irish, Black, Jewish, and Hispanic neighborhoods and could NEVER fathom the hatred of fellow homeys when the REAL threat wasn't anyone you were "huddled masses" with in the city. The TRUE "Enemies of the community" don't LIVE in New York. I know the Farrakhan Muslim rhetoric of the "Jews are the enemy of the black man" as well as the complimentary stupidity of the "Schvartzes" ...
Classism in the city has been coloured by neo-racism, but in reality, it's always been ECONOMIC ... there's no damned REASON for ANY ethnic group in the city to turn on one another until the Rockefellers have been eaten in a public bar-B-Q in Washington Park ... it's sad that anyone living in Rudyland THESE days would have a reason to believe that one culture is any LESS than another in the city THESE days.
I guess what I'm saying is I can't BELIEVE that racism is still alive and well in NYC and that the crime perpetrated upon you was JUST an ESSWHOLE BEING an ESSWHOLE rather than some motivation beyond "I wanna kick some a$$ today and TAG, you're IT" ... as someone who's been beaten, mugged *AND SHOT* in NYC (never got shot upstate, though I've come close) I feel for you, having been an uncompensated "crime victime" several times - the personal thing that always lingers is "why did that A$$HOLE hit *ME* of all people?" I know what goes through the mind ...
New York Citt *is* the magical, mystical inventor of ... "YOU were in the WRONG place at the WRONG time" ... uh, what about *that* jamoke? :(
I guess that's the reason why my attitude about guns, living upstate, is that I have no problem with people having guns ... as long as it's required that they learn how to *AIM* them. Bozoid! :)
As far as "safe neighborhoods in da chitty" ... well ... lemmesee ... Never got robbed or raped in Krooklyn, NEVER got robbed or raped in da Bronx ... Got robbed and raped in MANHATTAN though, usually in the WEST Village or the hotel district of midtown. Never had problems aside from WHITE PEOPLE'S HOODS ... :-\
So I just stay out of upstate New York. Works for me.
The M60 does make limited stops in Queens and along Broadway, as it should.
What makes me mad is the MTA. They put an airplane symbol next to the route on the maps, they pile a lot of wide-eyed luggage-toting wound-up people like me on that bus, and then they go, "who, us?" when they get trouble, over and over and over again. I wish they'd ride their own damn buses.
The alternatives are all bad. The M100 is too long a route as it is. In fact, that was once part of the Bx7 before it was cut back to 168th Street. The Q19 does not figure to be extended either, as it runs such infrequent headways, and is a NYCDOT route. Trust me, there is a HUGE farepaying demand for M60 service between Astoria and Harlem, and such a service change would not be done without a fight from the riding public at large. (Ever see how crowded an M60 gets at 49th Street, going to Upper Manhattan?)
The only real options would be to return the M35 to Astoria, or the Bx21 to Astoria. The latter would require a transfer in the Bronx, at a not very safe area. Basically, this is a catch-22 here!
-Adam
(
The Bx21 would have a transfer with the Bx15 at either 138th Street-3 Av(S/B Bx15 at least, N/B over at Willis Avenue a few blocks down), or 149th Street-3 Av, the latter seems safer because of more population, in a major shopping area, which can be bad at times as well. Also the Bx21 can be infrequent as well. The Bx32 could go to Astoria it would help the route out although it would need better service. Same could be said for the Bx1 and Bx2 buses
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
If I'm incorrect, then I suppose the M60 should function as a standard bus route in Queens. There's still no reason for it to permit intra-Manhattan travel with so many other bus routes along 125th Street. Perhaps every second or third Bx15 could be extended to 106th and Broadway via the M60 route to cover that leg -- both the M60 and the Bx15 are lightly traveled by that point, so splitting the Bx15 wouldn't cause any damage (except occasional passenger confusion).
The M104 already serves that segment. If there really is such a market for people transferring from some route to the M60 to get to stops along Broadway they can have a double transfer implemented.
One could argue that even a very legitimate beef would not justify assault.
Chuck Greene
Damn. That's all we'd need. I dialed in on a video conference at Baruch College, like, two months ago, where they were discussing how anti-semitic physical violence was happening overseas and not here; it was more subtle here. So much for that idea. Oh, crap.
It's a hideous shade of purple, actually.
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
I don't think the assailant even noticed the yarmulke on my head. As I said, the attack might have been spurred by racism, or it might not.
If President Bush were ever able to get NASA to send people to the moon and Mars, there are problems in regard to the fate of the International Space Station. Here's a thought: Sell it! Sell it to another nation or to several nations. That way, Bush could do his stupid attempt to get himself reelected. If there are any Bush people on SubTalk, sorry. I don't like Bush.
It would be better if NASA didn't have to sell it at all, though.
edk(2^8, or 4^4, depending upon ur preference.
So a Mars mission now is a total waste. It costs something like $10M a pound to send things into space, and for people you also need to send up the life support systems for them in addition to just the people. There needs to be a greater effort put into new technologies for actually bringing things into space more cheaply.
Not if you send it UPS Three Day Select.
But I did actually think you meant the IND.
Move LIRR Tracks and create congestions at an already crowded and complex station (Atlantic Avenue)
Why does this have to be such a monstrosity? It seems just a nice little arena would be much more appropriate.
The hugeness of the proposal reeks of Robert Mosses. To be so collossal that you drown out the voices of the area you are moving into.
As for "giving tax dollars to rich developers", that's not what's happening. From what I've read, the majority of the project's funding is from private sources. The city will finance part of the project through bonds which would be repaid from new tax revenues generated by the project itself, revenues that the city would not have at all if the project were not built. The city's existing tax income would not be used to finance the project at all.
Any time a project threatens to displace homes and businesses, there needs to be a very thorough look at the potential benefits and the potential detriments. This appears to be a project that will dramatically revitalize downtown Brooklyn, and bring a much needed financial shot in the arm to the city. I'm in favor of it, BUT only if the area's affected residents, business owners, and workers are FAIRLY compensated, and that means in terms of new homes, new business locations, new jobs....whatever it takes to make sure that nobody suffers because of this.
We'll see if he can stick to this. Frankly, I think Ratner's being motivated by ego, the desire to remembered for doing something good for Brooklyn. Financially, I think he's going to get creamed, but if he doesn't go bankrupt, it might be worth it to him.
But financially the arena should work - with great transit access, there are 6.3 million folks to could take a train there, plus some rich naming rights too. They would need 250 events per year (incl. Nets games) to break even and that should be a piece of cake there.
Remember the real estate credo of the 3 most important things -
LOCATION, LOCATION, LOCATION
Todays fair price for the condo is not what they are thinking about
It is thier perceived future value of the land.
The Newark Star Ledger already said he's going to get creamed next year since they will still be in the swamps while all this gets settled and his projected revenues are based on all the seats sold in the NEW arena!
What if the Nets get sold five years down the road to another rich developer? HUMMMMMMMMMMMM
This will probably provide a nice economic boost to an area that is struggling somewhat (its on the fringes of downtown brooklyn, with downtown being good and some of the neighborhoods on the other side being economically depressed).
As far as fairly compensating home and business owners in the area who will be displaced, this is a major and very important issue, and I think tax dollars should definitely go for this purpose! The project will be financed with a lot of private money, and the people in Brooklyn should be happy that someone is willing to invest lots of money into the area....its a lot more then some areas can say.
Also, another justification for spending public money on the project: NYC 2012...the olympics. If we want the Olympic bid, we have to be willing and able to build projects like this, and spend public money on them. In the end, it will be a massive economic benefit for all of NYC when thousands of visitors come to the city in 2012.... getting the bid is obviously something NYC is investing a lot of time and money into, and this will be one of those steps that can prove it can be done. So lets go for it says me!
"The land that O'Malley wanted to build his new stadium on, at the corner of Atlantic and Flatbush Avenues, was part of a proposed redevelopment project a little over a mile from Ebbets Field. It was currently occupied by a Long Island Rail Road Depot, Fort Greene Market, and number of other small businesses."
If it wasn't for Robert Moses(!), instead of a (smallish) Arena and apartment/commercial complex being built there, there would have been a huge "Dodger Stadium" built in 1957 or so, with "a retractable roof; foam rubber seats; heated in cold weather; a 7,000 car garage from which fans can proceed directly into the ballpark; automatic hot dog vending machines everywhere, including mustard; a new lighting system minus the present steel towers and a synthetic substance to replace grass on the entire field and which can be painted any color"
Not sure how the automatic mustard dispensers would have worked...
O'Malley wanted to build over the old LIRR terminal and to demolish the Meat Market behind it. Not only did Moses dislike it because of poor highway access, but Mayor Wagner diddled about actually starting the Brooklyn Sports Authority, that the state legislator autorized but he never appointed any to. He assumed the Dodgers wouldn't move and would eventually accept Moses's preferred site where Shea is now.
O'Malley wanted to stay in Brooklyn, and it is still debated about how serious he was with LA dangling seductively.
The proposed new arena is across the street from that site, at Flatbush & Atlantic, on top of where a short section of 5th Avenue is today.
Vanderbilt is too quiet a street to support large crowds like would be expected, and I've never heard of it - what is your source?
No, the Arena site is bounded by 5th Avenue, 6th Avenue, Flatbush and Atlantic. The block between Pacific and Flatbush is occupied by mixed development and must be taken by eminent domain. There's the problem.
Ratner also proposes to by the rest of the rail yard, eat to Vanderbilt, and build housing. And, he proposes to buy the industrial block south of Pacific at Vanderbit. More eminent domain. The latter is not likely.
They'll just have to build a subway tunnel from the Atlantic/Flatbush complex into the arena. You just can't have all those people getting off the trains and trying to cross Atlantic Avenue on foot.
I regularly visit these sections: Valley RxR; NY & Atl; LIRR; NY State; Museums; etc.
I couldn't believe it myself. I was waiting for a Manhattan bound local train at 62nd Drive today and guess what...a redbird work train pulled in on the local track and did not stop at the station. The train had 4 redbirds coupled in the front and rear with a yellow flatbed car in the middle. Can anyone tell me what was going on? Could it be a R27/30? Also since the train was going so fast, I only got the very last redbird car number (L9377) or (19377?)
btw the first car already had the sign plates removed
but isn't it true that IRT trains can't run on IND tracks?
Don't disgrace the name of my former home stop. ;-)
JUST KIDDING! =D
Those were probably IRT Redbirds. IIRC, R27/30s all had numbers in the 8000-range.
til next time
And it's underwater.
It wasn't 9377. It was probably 9337, an R-33WF
WASHINGTON - The derailment of a CSX freight train carrying military explosives is causing problems for Amtrak passengers up and down the East Coast.
"Reports from the scene are that it was a train containing Class 1 explosives from the military," Amtrak spokesman Dan Stessel tells WTOP.
The derailment occurred south of Charleston, S.C., at 8:30 p.m. Thursday, forcing Amtrak to cancel its popular Auto Trains and its Palmetto Train on Friday.
The 4 p.m. Auto Train from Lorton, Va., to Florida is canceled, as well as the northbound Auto Train from Florida. Trains 89, the Palmetto, which goes from New York to Miami Friday afternoon, is canceled. Trains 90, the northbound Palmetto which usually departs Miami at 4 p.m. and Train 97, the southbound Silver Meteor, also are canceled. The Silver Meteor also travels between New York and Miami.
Amtrak passengers headed anywhere south of Richmond could be affected.
And, passengers currently on trains won't be getting to their destinations on time.
"The Auto Trains of yesterday, that departed their origin destination stations yesterday at 4 p.m. are currently on a detour route. They will experience significant delays," Stessel says.
He says the Auto Train that was scheduled to arrive at 8 a.m. probably won't be in until late Friday afternoon.
Amtrak anticipates even more trains will be affected. Stessel encourages passengers to call 1-800-USA-RAIL to find out the status of trains and to make other arrangements if they had tickets for the Auto Train.
Delays can be expected to go through Saturday. It is hoped the tracks will be cleared by then.
He says no one was injured during the derailment, and nothing is leaking from the train.
If you have any questions you can call AMTRAK at 1-800-USA RAIL.
(Copyright 2004 by WTOP. All Rights Reserved.)
Today, we sat in parkchester for 6 minutes and they made us connect with not one, but TWO 6 locals. I am now beginning to resent the few people that transfer from the local to the express at parkchester, as they are contributing to my train's sitting there while we all FREEZE, since the doors are open for the entire time.
If I were to ever decide to get a position within NYCT, will be the day I get revenge on every single 6 local rider...
-Judging by your statement above, I pray to god that you don't ever get a position with the NYCT.
Chuck Greene
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
-Lincoln
Anyway, no, I don't plan to take a hiatus from the board...however don't expect me to be doing much [if any] railfanning next week, as I will obviously be busy.
A 8AV FULTON EXP
#5226
I send my condolences to you and your family.
It was something like (redbird,redbird,steel,steel,steel,redbird) or something around that in the middle of the train, but the front and end were exact. Strange that retired cars are pulling the newer but not that new train cars, Such embarasement I tell ya.
Now that there are no more Redbirds at Corona, I believe the MTA is retrofitting some of the R62A's with dual-tripcocks.
Supposedly, the purple diamond sticker signifies the double tripcock modification.
Get it? 06-45?
Behind me was the Garrison channel in tampa. In front of me in that intersection is the TECO line. I"m sure that linked up with the tracks down the street. THere's a yard and a crossing to get onto the mainline and amtrack down the street. I think this may have been where Henry Plants tracks went to the shipyards.
But how old do these look? When's the last time they made things like this? anything else? I bet before they built the trolley and redeveloped the area, you could follow these tracks much further than this spot.
Found some more old abandoned tracks today between some old warehouses Nothing fancy, but wish i could date them. Going to have to do some research somewhere I guess.
#3 West End Jeff
Though the M7's should handle that when there fully intergrated into the system with the retirements of the older fleet.
#3 West End Jeff
Yeah, that is true but you are even farther.
Who or what you are is immaterial to life in general.
DRN (for "Drain") = chaining code for the Waterloo & City Line ;-)
Appropriate?
Most lines in Chicago don't have these problems because they deal with cold more often. Even the electrified lines in Chicago don't have these problems. it is a matter of money, man-hours, and priorities.
Most places that don't get *real* cold weather place a bet of sorts, that they will not get this kind of cold, so they don't spend the money it takes be ready. This year, the LIRR (and Metro North)lost the bet. however, over time, they have won since this kind of weather has been infrequent in recent years. Even losing hasn't been so bad, a few cancelations and shorter, more crowded trains. Sounds like just another day on the G train to me.
NYC acts paralyzed over temps below freezing or more than a dusting of snow. true weather wusses.
The basic design of the M-1 is at fault. While the M-3s have traction motors that are sealed and cooled by air brought down in ducts, the M-1s traction motors are open and snow and salts do get into the commutators.
On NYCT trains the problems are similar. When the R-68s were running on the Brighton line snow would pack on top of the truck and penetrate the 'F' Connector for the Trolley Leads. This problem is true of most NYCT equipment.
BTW: As someone who is intimately involved in maintenance, I find your statement sounds a bit obnoxious.
I think the riders (I have not been on a train this week without hour-ling standers in all vestibules) understand, and are being good sports. Hey, they're out of the cold.
#3 West End Jeff
DOH!
Now, snow getting into bad areas - how do you seal that up? It's not always easy. Oh yeah, and remember, these things STILL need to be serviceable and all.
The list goes on. maybe a lot of this stuff could have been fixed by Budd when the car was designed, but the M-1's design was a rush job (it was, in fact, quite fast to go from idea to finished design), and the MP-54s all had their air intakes on the motors and all....
The M-3 corrected most of these problems (but introduced it's own), and hopefully the M-7s will too (but they too will introduce their own problems).
Yeah, the guys who designed this thing gave it a good shot. But the customers? They're a pain. They want it fast, cheap, reliable, easy to fix, every feature they don't need. It's gotta be cool, smell good, taste good, look good. It's gotta attract riders, women, freaks, freakish women. It's also gotta do the impossible, and oh yes, we want it next week and we'll figure out how to pay you sometime when we finannaly get money in a year or two. You also gotta build it by total idiots, where we want, and don't leave a mess or that's your fault too. And hey, you SHOULD fell lucky we want only a few and it's a totally custom design that's unuseable anywhere else. You're lucky we even bother calling you, even though you're one of one firms who can do this. And oh, by the way, did we mention we wanted it next week? It's our busted calender again, we meant LAST week...
#3 West End Jeff
Blowers are needed for higher power, since bigger motors get hotter. I'm not sure if the M-7s have blowers for the motors, though they might. The other blowers keep those transistors cool!
AC motors can be totally sealed (are the new subway cars like this?) This is the ultimate in snow/junk protection - you can't get stuff in there. This of course means air too, so they need cooling fins and normally a blower somewhere, or an external fan. The totally enclosed, fan cooled (TEFC) motor is the staple of the industrial world because it's reliable and bulletproof (probbably litterally).
Asea/ABB/Adtranz was showing liquid cooling a while back for rail traction motors, the idea being quieter because of no blowers, and total sealing.
I'm not sure, but I suspect the bulk of the heating in an AC motor is in the stator, but the armature gets a bit warm too.
As someone who is intimately involved in the human race, I find your statement a bit obnoxious.
Too tense the size of a normal mind ...NUK NUK NUK
www.freewebs.com/islandtransit
Regards,
Jimmy
Hato Rey-Old San Juan
Hato Rey-Catano
Old San Juan-Catano
Also, believe it or not, there already is a ferry from Mayaguez to the Domican Republic
I was thinking about a ferry from San Juan to Vieques, and maybe one from San Juan to Mayaguez or Aguadilla. Hell, Rincon is pretty close to both of them, and I'm told it's a very popular surf spot. A ferry with limited stops(Bayamon, Arecibo, then on to Aguadilla maybe)
I like your idea of the ferry from San Juan to Culebra. Maybe tie it in with the San Juan-Vieques ferry
I do intend to present some of these, if not all, to someone in the transportation department in PR. The intercity bus system would probably come first, as it's the easiest to implement, and PR really doesn't have anything like it. It'd be the Greyhound of PR, heh.
Thanks for the complements and suggestions. I'll look into those towns you mentioned.
Jimmy ;)
Also, I found a section of track just east of Arecibo. Anyone know anything about this?
Regards,
Jimmy
Starting February 2nd until June, Marcy Avenue on the J/M/Z will be closed Manhattan-bound.
You know what that means...No Manhattan-bound J/Z express between Myrtle and Marcy until June. :(
This Is What I Live For...
Aren't all the R-42s equipped with door enablers now?
Manhattan-bound trains skip Marcy Av.
All times, 5 AM Mon, Feb 2 to Jun 2004
All it means is all Manhattan bound trains will skip Marcy Avenue.
After Hewes Street on the local track
or Myrtle/Broadway on the express track
the next stop will be Essex/Delancey in Manhattan.
There will be customers at Essex Street who wanted get off at Marcy Avenue. It will be your fault that the trains did that. No matter how clearly the signs are written or how clearly you explain the situation to them. Why? Because the train always has stopped at Marcy Avenue and it doesn't. If they saw the signs, they didn't think it pertained to them.
Damned if you do.
Damned if you don't.
Damned because you happen to be there.
If you don't look before you enter. I agree you're screwed.
Da Hui
David
hainault
A much faster (and serene) use of the M60 is to go to Astoria Blvd on the N/W and catch it there. I don't have the same feeling of being "trapped" as I do on the crosstown segment.
Anyway...not fun to railfan??? it is better after Hunts Point going N/B sometimes I catch the last one shaking past all of the stops at good speed. It can save up to 5 minutes at times(usually S/B posted schedule), but usually 3-4 minutes(posted for N/B schedule).
----
Who cares if it doesn't run?
----
say this to the people at Parkchester going S/B letting a (6) train go by waiting for the <6>
Um...I don't know...people who depend on it to get to work / school every day?
You got to be brain dead to think you can have a plan 4 and keep Express service because under a plan 4 Trains get layed up on the Express tracks.
---
You got to be brain dead to think you can have a plan 4 and keep Express service because under a plan 4 Trains get layed up on the Express tracks
---
well duh, that's kind of obvious unless some try running express on the local track (which HAS happened before in the PM midday when <6> couldn't use M track) which would lead to a very slow express at times
Subject: Rockhill Trolley Museum offers rare interurban train for sale
Rockhill Trolley Museum offers rare interurban train for sale
The Rockhill Trolley Museum is announcing a call for proposals from responsible parties interested in the acquisition of the Liberty
Liner Independence Hall.
This historic interurban train was built in 1941 by the St. Louis Car Co. and was first used on the Chicago North Shore & Milwaukee Railroad.
The train set was built as an articulated four-car train for use in tight quarters, including the streets of Milwaukee, WI and on the Chicago Elevated in downtown Chicago. In 1963 the train was sold to the Red Arrow Lines in Philadelphia, PA for use on the former Philadelphia & Western Line, now known as the SEPTA Norristown High Speed line. The train is unique as it features a tavern lounge car in its consist and is equipped with onboard air-conditioning. It is a double-ended electric train powered by 600V DC.
In its prime, the train is capable of high speeds in excess of 80 miles per hour.
Railways to Yesterday Inc. (operators of the Rockhill Trolley Museum) acquired the train in 1982. It has been stored indoors since 1996 at our museum site in south central Pennsylvania. The train is in semi-operable condition. The museum is primarily interested in straight financialoffers, but will consider financial offers that include one or more pieces of operable street railway rolling stock.
Our museum has no rail connection to the national railroad network.
All transportation will require highway trailers and a crane for loading.
Six tractor-trailers were required when the train was moved in 1982.
The museum is seeking proposals from interested parties for this
historic trainset. Please send questions or proposals to Railways To Yesterday Inc., P.O. Box 1601, Allentown, PA 18105.
> (Joel Salomon, President, Rockhill Trolley Museum)
Red Arrow Liberty Liner
Photographs of train at Rockhill in October, 2002:
end car
exterior
bar car
interior
RTY has already advertised the Liner to several other museums.
Since IRM already has one and a lot of money has been spent on its restoration, they don't want a second Liner that needs lots od TLC and $$$.
Electric City is possibly interested, as a Liberty Liner (but with poles, since their line is overhead only)and may be a good fit.
Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! 80MPH THROUGH THE CROWN AVE TUNNEL!!!!
WWWHHHHHHHHHHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!
Yeah, but is the line extended past the tunnel ? I was there in the spring and they (ECTM) said the line would be extended in the future.
Bill "Newkirk"
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The Lionel ZW, the Cadillac of transformers !
Bill "Newkirk"
NeCmAtRiX21786@aol.com for those who wan't to e-mail me.
Da Hui
Da Hui
Maybe psa188 ;)
On Friday, me, Chris G(rideonrules), and Ray (aznboy) went up to see SEPTA for the day (This btw is my first visit to SEPTA). It began when Garnier drove to the Wilmington SEPTA station and we decided to kill time waiting for our R2 commuter rail by watching DART buses lay over and pick up passengers. It was cold as hell but we did some interesting sights, especially the fake me out trolley run by DART on the Wilmington trolley.
So here is the sequence of our trips:
R2
Wilmington-Market East
We rode a two car train of Silverliner IVs. They are very fast but the ride quality doesn't stand up to push pull cars IMO.
Market Frankford Line
8th-13th
Man these MFL cars are ugly in person....And its missing the BING BONG! door closing chime!
We then headed towards the subway surface boarding platform and saw 3 trolleys back to back to back on the platform. Man the subway surface has mad service!
10
Juniper-Overbrook
I immedieately fell in love with the subway surface lines. It felt more like a bus on rails than a light rail system. I was thrilled by the speeds that these things travel at.
10
Overbrook-33rd
Before we rode the 10 back to the subway, we saw an old Neoplan lined up with the trolleys and thought it made a nice pic too:
11
33rd-40th St Portal
At 33rd Street, Ray tried to crush a penny on the rails. Unfortunately it didn't crush the penny all that well. Must be some really good shock absorbers on the cars or they are just really light.
34
40th St Portal-Juniper-City Hall
Saw a few hotties from the University of Pennsylvania get on the car...
MFL
Juniper-City Hall-13th
Finally got ourselves the railfan window on the AdTranz cars. This one was quite devoid of scratchitti.
Broad Street Subway
City Hall-Pattison
These cars are even uglier than the MFL cars. Also, City Hall station was really raggedy and is in need of a rehab job.
BSS
Pattison-Walnut Locust
Ray and I got trapped in the car because apparently they have to shut the train down to reverse the operating direction of the trains, according to Garnier. And knowing that the BSS has shitty headways, we thought we were gonna leave Garnier behind.
BBS EXP
Walnut-Fern Rock
The express run was quite fast, but overall the BSS bored me. What did interest me was the old BSS cars sitting at the rail yard at Fern Rock. Are these museum cars or are they gonne be scrapped?
BSS EXP
Fern Rock-Girard
Spur
Girard-8th-Market
While waiting for the spur train at Girard, Garnier was quite eager to spend a night in jail just so he could relieve himself on the tracks:-)
NABI 416, route 47
8th-Market-South Street
We were supposed to walk nearly a mile in 20F degree weather to our lunch spot, some famous cheesesteak place called Jim's on South Street. But then we hopped on the NABI to cut down some of the walking time. This NABI was by far the best NABI I rode. It was in better shape than MTA Maryland's or WMATA's artics. Also I thought the Clever Devices system was pretty cool here. It scrolled useful info like date, time, route, destination, and places of interest.
Neoplan AN440DK, route 57
South Street-Market Street
After lunch we boarded an old 1988 Neo on the 57, and I was very impressed with the quality of the bus, seeing how old it is. Also, the 6V92/Allison HT combo had the most intoxicating whine I've ever heard from a 6V92!
When we got off the bus, we saw some old British double decker tour buses parked near the MFL station.
Guess where I'm standing:-)
MFL
Market-Frankford
The el portion of the MFL was really cool, and it rang so much like NYC. We also spotted the old ETB wires near Frankford Terminal. Also, Frankford Terminal was a busfan's heaven with buses everywhere and a depot right across the street! w00000t! There were also a hella lotta school trippers pulling into Frankford with lots of white private school girls in school girl outfits (*COUGH* tristan *COUGH*).
Neoplan AN440EI, route 5
Frankford-Market
Once again, the old Neoplans were holding up nicely and was quite fast too.
New Flyer DE40LF hybrid, route 17
Market-12th
We saw the hybrid just before we reached Market St on the 5, and we decided to hop off the 5 to catch it. The 5 stopped way down the street from the 17 but luckily it came down our way. After riding the hybrid, it seems to be quite peppy and had a good acceleration to it and had good power with a bus pretty loaded with passengers (nearly all the seats were full and a few standees)
After this we bus spotted around the center sity area and then walked to the Greyhound/NJT terminal where Garnier picked up some timetables and then we walked to SEPTA HQ where we looked around and walked inside the PCC car on display in HQ.
After this we spent some more time bus spotting and then walked back to Market East to board an R2 back to Wilmington.
and I forgot the rest.
Red=Used on rear of train only
Green=Express
White=Local
Yellow=Spur
Blue=Special
Chuck Greene
On the BSS Subway lights, I defer to the Phiily guys to properly explain them. I think white is local, green is express, yellow is Ridge-spur trains, blue is special events.If i'm wrong, shoot me!
Chuck Greene
They aren't light rail, aka Glorified Trolley Transit, they are Genuine Trolley Transit.
BTW, you spent too much time on buses and not enough on rail.
Have a nice day:-)
Chuck Greene
Does anyone have an answer as to why the ride quality on the Silverliner (or possibly all EMUs) isn't as smooth as a push pull car?
it's all in your head
At first I was shocked....never heard anyone refer to the NYC subway lines by color before. Its always B/D/F/V and A/C/E, never Orange and Blue lines.
Then it dawned on me....why shouldn't NYC use colors to refer to the lines? Makes sense, as at one point or another, every subway route operates on a line with only routes that are "its own color" (uaually the trunk lines in Manhattan). theoretically on the outer parts of the lines, you should be able to change to any other route of the same color by riding the train into Manhattan. Though lets only concentrate on Manhattan here....why don't they refer to the truck lines in midtown by their color on a normal basis? Surely for someone not leaving Manhattan, it would be easiest to say "take the downtown Red line to Chambers St"...or "take a Yellow line local to City Hall".
BTW, this announcement I heard was over a year ago, but I just remembered about it now.
Sometimes it's a bad idea to tell customers to take a colored line to go somewhere as opposed to a numbered or lettered train. If you're at Grand Central and a customer wants a train to Yankee Stadium. A Green line train goes there. But the only train on the Green line that goes there is the 4 Train. The 5 and the 6 trains don't. The 1 Train goes to South Ferry. Not the Red line. Get on a red line they might end up half-way to New Lots or Flatbush/Nostrand.
Say it ain't so....
This isn't Park Street.
The Green Line's letters are used when referring to places served by one of the four branches. You can tell people to take the Green B train for BU or BC or the Green E train for Northeastern. Although it's more common to say "BC car" or "Heath St car" for those lines.
In NYC, you could say "Blue A train" or "Green 6 train" for stops served only by the A or 6 trains, but not the other "Blue" or "Green" trains. Although they will more than likely be shortened to "A train" or "6 train" which is what we already call them. For whatever reason, colors just haven't really caught on in NYC, except among tourists and newcomers. Maybe if the current color system had been implemented sooner than 1979, it would have caught on with New Yorkers.
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
Teal Line to Flatbush, anyone? Salmon to Stillwell? Pistachio to Pelham Bay?
Notice I said IF.
Just curious, what color was the X?
I don't think the SAS has a color assigned to it yet.
Teal Line to Flatbush, anyone? Salmon to Stillwell? Pistachio to Pelham Bay?
Have a look at the MTA maps from the 1970s; that's precisely what they did. You think the current map looks like spaghetti? Boy, you ain't seen nothing.
This show is clearly better than Broderick and Lane from "The Producers".
Admission: $2, payable with Metrocard only. Valid and unxpired Unlimited Ride passes are admitted free of charge.
No, it's more like Mostel and Wilder of the Producers!!
Besides, to me the Sea Beach will always be a train from Times Square to Coney Island. At least I can have 50% of what I want that date.
You know it will be a little early for Frog's Legs at Nathan's ?
Silver Line to Dulles Airport!
"Blue Line to Addison Road, next stop Federal Triangle"
No reason that I can think of, and it's quite helpful. That's the way they are shown on maps and on signage (along with their letters or numbers). It's easier to remember yellow than to remember N, Q, R and W. Of course letters and numbers are needed to distinguish between different trains that share the same colored routes.
Question: What train will get me to Church Ave in Bklyn?
Answer: The Orange Line.
There would be two different orange lines (B and F) that would go to two different Church Avenues in Bklyn. I'd be utterly and hopelessly confused
There are four versions of the orange line
There are so many lines, different color trains use the same tracks and stations, and many different trains use the same colors without the same destinations.
The C runs from Euclid to 168th, and the A runs from 207th to Rock Park or Far Rock; both are 'blue'.
www.forgotten-ny.com
As we approached the Astor Pl. station I was interested by the amount of light on the right side of the car, and then, holy sh*t! Six flatcars, a diesel-electric, four (yes four!) Bobcats, a whole load of concrete, steel, rotted ties, plates, more flatcars, another diesel, and of course, the required four MTA workers sitting on their asses. What a sight though.
Once I got off I walked down to the entrance hoping to peek a look, and whaddya know, it wasn't even roped off. Myself and a friend gleefully ran down the stairs to get a better look, and we did. It was very cool to see the bobcats being driven off the back of the flat car, load up with debris, turn around, and drive up the back of the flatcar to dump. Another drove off the flatcar and onto the station platform!
Hehehe, imagine the possibilities during rushhour..."Ladies and gentlemen, please stand away from the doors so people can exit...We will use mechanical means to move you if necessary." A guy could just drive down the platform and push everyone out of the way!
One minor note though....I noticed they are pitching a whole bunch of spikes. I asked one of the workers if i could have one and he simply said "Get the h!ll out of here". Such a nice guy.
P.S. The fun continues until at least tomorrow night. Check it out, it is quite a sight
Hopefully, this should make for some interesting announcements now that the R142A are fully updated to the latest software (they can say "This is a Brooklyn bridge bound 6 local train").
Nice guy indeed. I doubt that the TA would miss one rail spike that won't even be used anymore. What a spoiled sport-that dude.
Jimmy
D.
To be honest, I want a day off tomorrow.
Living in a railcar would be so convenient, because you would have unlimited storage space. I thought that I would have this railcar consist, you know, maybe a couple Amfleets: a Cafe Car split into front portion Dining Room and back portion Living Room with the Cafe in the middle acting as the kitchen. Then the next car would be the bedroom car, basically a refitted Amfleet car with two bedrooms and perhaps one small seated section if I were transporting guests. Then after that I would have a string of baggage/boxcars for my storage. I could imagine one of the baggage cars having their walls lined with bookshelves, and there would be one for food storage and other stuff like that. I could keep adding to the consist with very cheap baggage cars or MHC's (material handling cars) as money allows. The best part is that the incremental cost is pretty much the cost of additional maintenance and capital -- unlike a house where a larger house could be disproportionately expensive, and you need permits and the like. And if I make it big I could add another lounge car with maybe a half seating to entertain guests, or add a sleeping car so all the kids would have their own little bedroom. It would sure be a different lifestyle, but sounds like a good one.
Anyhow. So my girlfriend alerted me to this problem. Apparently parking the railcars would be a problem, since rail yards tend to be in industrial neighbourhoods and not very nice places. And you won't have neighbours, etc. And besides, you still have to pay rent to lay up on a siding or something. So I thought, if enough people lived in railcars, we could just have railcar colonys. Basically it would have this one main track, and a bunch of spurs coming off it. And you can park your railcar in the spur and you would have neighbours, and a backyard, etc, etc. Except that you can move to a different spot if you didn't like the track you're on. And you would have mail, water, electricity just like any other suburban division. Except that everyone would be in railcars, and you could move anytime you wanted, to a different railcar colony, or just to a different spot. And for addresses, I would never need to change my address again. People can just address the mail to me at "Mr. AEM-7, Railcar Colony, AEMX 101, USA." Then the USPS would use the AAR data system to figure out where AEMX 101 is, and mail would be routed to the appropriate colony -- or if in transit, the mail would be delivered to a railhead close by and a traffic manager would give it to me as the train passes by.
That would be so neat :-)
I guess if subway cars are low-income housing, I'm aspiring to live in an Amfleet so I must be like a yuppie or something. And those guys that are CEOs would live in like Budd heavyweight consists.
AEM7
Well, 85' is a rather long house...
AEM7
LIRR MU's would be cells for inmates on Death Row.
Imagine having the bedrooms and living room upstairs and the kitchen, bath and study downstairs. A lot of windows to clean but an exterior that never needs painting, re-roofing or residing.
Other than that, those cars are worthless to any railroad. Unless someone buys all ten, guts the interiors and makes them mobile bowling alleys !
Bill "Newkirk"
I also wonder why the J train on weekends doesn't go to Fulton Street (then light to Broad St.) again to improve the J's Fulton St. connection to the 8th Avenue and 7th Avenue lines.
If not, I'm hoping someone from the MTA reads these and likes them enough to actually do it. It's certainly not expensive, maybe one extra train overnight on the 6 line, and almost no change at all to the J line on weekends. Oh, well, I can only hope....
Gee...and all those years I was looking at my watch to see if it was late at night! ;-)
Just curious....if you'd run the J to Fulton Street on weekends, why would you then run it to Broad Street light, as opposed to in service?
During the June MOD fan trip, we rode past Wall St. on the Lexington at 1100; there was exactly one person waiting on the northbound platform for the most crowded subway in the city. What would Broad St. on the Nassau St. line be like at 1100 on a Sunday not to mention the middle of the night? On weeknights, there it is more crowded because there are many overnight workers in the Financial District, but not on the weekend.
Can anyone tell me what station it is? I vaguely remember that it might be City Hall on the Broadway, or Canal St. southbound on the 8th Avenue, or 14 St southbound on the 8th Avenue, or someplace else.
Thanks in advance. I bet once someone mentions it there will be crowds of subtalkers looking at it.
Also, the same artist, Tom Otterness, did the statues in front of the new 42nd St Hilton, and has one on display on the Pratt campus.
Now I just need to take my digital camera to all these places, then enlarge them and put them on the wall at work. Then everyone will think the train pictures are reasonable. My supervisor has trouble being serious when there is an 8x10 Flushing Express redbird looking right at him (and in Baltimore, yet) :-)
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/front/2367998
And these clowns get to move harzadous materials?
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
But what about Her? Wtf is going in her head
Long answer: She was young, thinking her car could trump the rails. The rails won, and a young woman is dead way too soon. The blame is squarely on the dead woman. Also, while I am not a fan of blaming the dead, if I were the commisssioner of the Houston transit agency, I would sue her family if her car damaged any tracks. As for complaints from others of being mean to her family and being unsympathetic, TO HELL WITH THEM AND THE NIMBYs! Besides, I am not an elected official, so I do not have to answer to mob mentality! The law says I can go after them, and so I will (even if it's her estate and her family).
Neither one is brilliant. The railroad worker is luckier though, because he lives to see another day. This young coed does not. Besides, why was she not wearing a seatbelt?
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
I bet the anti-rail people in the area love these. I'm surprised they aren't quoted in the papers anymore when they go "I told you so". Maybe they actually feel something is in bad taste for once.
4.30am, article doesn't mention anythign about blood test and substances that I saw. She couldn't have been avoiding any traffic,even the worst city has good drivin at 4am.
Also, it is interesting to note who one of its biggest champions was: the former mayor (and former New York City police commissioner) Lee Brown! I hope the new mayor decides to extend it further. However, with Super Bowl coming up, I am really getting excited! No, not for the game, to see how many more drivers F up!
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
At least Houston already went through that nasty vote against development interest, and it's written in law/financed to expand the system.
Now FL is another story today....
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
Well said. I do feel sorry for the family, but I do feel that they're are responsible.
I tried to replicate this before they paved over McDonald Ave., but radial tires don't work well as the bias ply tires did.
Bill "Newkirk"
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20040123131109990001
He was a good man who brought smiles to millions of kids like me in four different decades.
First Fred Rogers, now the Captain.
Sigh.
"At least Captain Video still lives."
Actually Al Hodge (Captain Video died in March 19, 1979. A sad day for us 'video rangers'.
The only "Crash" Corrigan movies that I ever saw were when he was riding with "Dusty" King & "Alibi" Terhune. I never got to see him as a solo feature star. I think they were called the three mosquitoes or something like that.
Until next time,
Mike
Hmmm, that's not a bad idea. Maybe we could make up a sign for the first train and ask the T/O if he'll hang it out front. That would be awesome.
And as for the N on the first day, it will be a Local via Bridge, or more properly, 4th Ave Express, via Bridge, B'way Local.
Virgin Trains said it themselves: the drawback of air travel is that there is no alternative. IOW, Mrs. Thatcher screwed up rail travel in Gt Britain so badly by splitting up the regions, it cannot be cheaply put back together. A warning to Congress.
And as for the argument that the low-budget airlines force you to schlep your own luggage. I've schlepped luggage through London and other British rail hubs. Scintillating British efficiency.
I've been told before that, for the best British travel, you need to take a German highway or a French train. Or, now, a German airline.
Ryan Air is Irish. It's only a trip via germany.
Nevertheless, our railways are in an utter state. We need TGV style dedicated lines with trains that can do 180mph. That gives me an idea...
A nice shiny underground High Speed Rail station somewhere in London (I'm inclined to say Marylebone/Baker St, Marble Arch or Victoria). From the Southern end, 2 lines: one to Brighton; one to Bristol, Cardiff, and Swansea. (Provision should be left to send some trains on the existing lines to Portsmouth, Southampton, Bournemouth, and Plymouth.) From the Northern end, another 2 lines: one to Coventry, Birmingham, Stoke (with a branch to Liverpool), Manchester, Blackburn, and Glasgow (with provision for running on existing lines to Inverness and to Aberdeen); one to Leicester, Nottingham, Sheffield, Leeds, Middlesborough, Newcastle, Edinburgh (with provision to run on existing lines to Dundee, Aberdeen, and Inverness), and Glasgow.
There should be the following cross-country sections of high-speed line too:
- Liverpool to Blackburn (and Glasgow)
- Liverpool to Manchester to Leeds
- Bristol and Cardiff (split) to Birmingham to Nottingham and Leicester (split)
Existing lines should also be used to take trains from high-speed lines to Grimsby and to Hull.
Also, isn't Victoria a given as your southern London station, to integrate with the Folkestone tunnel line?
The Chunnel has *never* been reached from Victoria station. The current London terminus for the Eurostar trains is Waterloo station. However, there is no point in planning long term improvements to the UK rail infrastructure around that route, since from 2007 the Eurostars will transfer to St Pancras station.
I found Kings Cross to be more or less of a dividing point. South of the station is fine; to the north is not. In any event, that shouldn't matter much to Eurostar travelers.
Really for the ease of serving the right destinations. To the North, a modernised GC Main Line would be an easy method; to the South, Brighton really means getting at Victoria (okay, theoretically London Bridge would work too). This would put the central tunnel section on an alignment of Gt Central St - Wyndham St - Wyndham Pl - Bryanston Sq - Gt Cumberland Pl - Marble Arch - Park La - Hyde Pk Cnr - Grosvenor Pl - Grosvenor Gdns.
The Western branch to get the capcities anything approaching balanced should enter from the South. This would really depend on where the station was in Central London:
- if Marylebone/Baker St, it would be a simple matter of curving to get under Crawford St, then straight on to get onto the GW Main Line out of London.
- if Marble Arch or Hyde Park Corner, it would involve somehow tunnelling to Acton or Ealing (or maybe Brentford then on the goods line to Southall).
- if Victoria, parallel tracks should be added along the Windsor Lines and a dedicated route pursued outside London.
Of course St Pancras would have certain advantages. It would certainly require a longer tunnel to get the right exits from London:
- from West Hampstead on the GC, under the GC, the Finchley Rd (getting beneath the Jubilee Line), the WCML, the Primrose Hill cut-off, the NLL, then curve into a station beneath Thameslink at St Pancras.
- from just West of Paddington, cutting across Paddington and Marylebone, then under Blandford St, Gt Cavendish St, then roughly aligned with Howland St, Torrington St, and Tavistock Pl, to curve North into St Pancras.
- from the Brighton Fast Lines at New Cross, under Southwark Park, the river, Vaughan Way, Dock St, Leman St, then curving to run (roughly) under Thameslink from Moorgate to St Pancras.
PS: Anybody hijacked a train recently ? (except Pelham 123 !)
In order to understand these comparisons you need to understand how low-cost airlines work in the UK. Each flight starts cheap, then as it fills up it gets more expensive; the website gives the customer a full choice of flights. If you book as soon as the flights open for booking you can get a cheap fare on any flight. Nearer the time, you can choose between going at precisely the time you want to go, paying a higher fare, and going at a less convenient time and paying less. It's a market system; supply and demand; capitalism! But it means that you can never say "The fare from London to Glasgow on EasyJet is x pounds", because there isn't one fare you can quote. If you want EasyJet to look good you quote their lowest price; if you want them to look bad (as British Airways does, for example) you quote the fare you'd be charged if you booked two days before the flight. The silly examples in the newspaper article, of travelling via the continent, are based on the very cheapest, promotional fares that the low-cost airlines are currently advertising for each leg.
Journalists who are (a) ignorant about and (b) hostile to trains (which means 99% of journalists; the others work for Railway Gazette)often quote the full, standard open train fares, the highest ones. But the train companies have many promotional fares. If the comparison is with ludicrously cheap fares on Ryanair or EasyJet, the fair comparison is with promotional fares on the train. Example: a couple of years back I needed to go to Edinburgh at relatively short notice. All the EasyJet flights on the day in question were up to 50 pounds or more, one-way from Luton. But I got a 25 pounds one-way train ticket from Peterborough to Edinburgh on GNER. Luton airport and Peterborough station are about equidistant from where I live, and the train goes right to the centre of Edinburgh. So I went on GNER. But no doubt the full, standard open fare for that train trip would have been close to three figures of pounds.
On some routes the differential isn't much. The cheapest return ticket from Leicester to Leeds City (with railcard) is a Saver Return at £18.75. The Standard Open Return (with railcard) is scarcely more at £21.10 (allowing peak hour travel). It still costs £91.00 to travel first class, however. I doubt I'd ever find anything as cheap from EMA to LBA (and it would take forever given how inconvenient both airports are to get to).
On the Empire line, I think they should look into stops at GWBBT, 125th St, 86th St, and 57th St. Obviously not all of them would be built, maybe only one or 2. I think that GWBBT is a perfect one for it's connection to inter-city buses. If you think that Yonkers and New Rochelle are close enought to NYP, then think about this. Back Bay and south station are only 1 mile apart, and both get very heavy use. Again, it'd only be limited service to these new stations.
Another idea is extending the Adirondack to Jamaica(and further into LI, see other thread)
There was also talk on railroad.net about using the Bay Ridge line for some NEC trains. While I agree that southern Brooklyn is a trek to NYP, diverting NEC trains isn't smart. We have talked about sending trains from LI to NEC south of NYP via Bay Ridge and SI(see other thread).
No, take the subway to PENN STA. No reason to slow down the AMTK train's exit out of NYC.
I say ZERO stops. Take the subway.
That's news to me. When did the MTA kill the A train?
Koi
Amtrak = Inter City
MTA = Intra City
These are runs that LIRR or MN wouldn't even think of running. The Stations along the Empire Line would suffer the same fate as the CPW, that of course being that they have no ridership coming from the west, effectively their ridership base would be cut in half.
But it's a moot point, because Amtrak would just be wrong to try to serve something as foolish as the GWBBT or Sunnyside Yard.
A stop at GWBBT would greatly increase the attractivity of Amtrak for those in the service area of the commuter bus services.
As for sunnyside...why? Any benefit of time LI'ers save would be negated by extra time spent by regular NEC riders having to stop un-necessarily for 2 or 3 minutes at Sunnyside (remember Amtrak dwell times are much longer then LIRR dwell times). Penn is only an extra 3 or 4 minutes from Sunnyside each way. Personally, as a LI'er who rides Amtrak occasionally, I would much rather make my connection at Penn, since its indoors and there are many extra services there that wouldn't be available at Sunnyside. If I was only going to be at Penn for 5 minutes, then it wouldn't matter so much, but when I pay a hundred bucks for a reserved train, i'm showing up at least half hour early to make sure any LIRR delays don't cause me to miss my train! Much rather spend half hour at Penn then half hour at Sunnyside!
Now as for extending Amtrak trains out to Long Island, I think thats a neat idea.....except i'd extend some Empire trains, not the Adirondack....just because Empire implys all of NYS...and Long Island is a significant part of the state that is not served by Empire trains. I'd probably run them out to Ronkonkoma simply because its the LIRR's busiest branch. Maybe some out to Babylon.
It's mostly for the commuter bus connections though. People in the Red and Tan, Shortline, and other commuter agency service areas do not have service to NYP. This way, their trip times would be drastically reduced by simply making the connection at GWBBT.
About Sunnyside, it's also for LGA bound travelers. As of now, the only public service from CT to LGA is I THINK CT limo(coach bus) and I guess private car services. Also, Sunnyside has connection to subway lines not serving NYP. Again, I remind you that it'd only be LIMITED service stopping at sunnyside.
As for LI extension, see my response to your post in the other thread about Amtrak service to LI.
BTW, although I don't think a lot of your ideas are necessarily practical, I have to say its awesome that someone is thinking along the lines of seamless intermodal connectivity....something NYC area could use a little more of. Seems sometime like figuring out how to get from a train to a subway or a train to a bus is harder then booking a flight to London from JFK...especially if you aren't familiar with the area! Just look at how long it took to get rail access to JFK and how crappy public transit was to JFK just 2 months ago (and still how crappy it is to LGA) if you want to see what I mean about lousy intermodal connectivity in NY!
Regards,
Jimmy
Absolutely. I have to agree with that.
Regards,
Jimmy
Ooo, ooo, I know! A tram! Like Roosevelt Island Tram! Or how about one of those trolley like things that go up the really steep inclines!
Regards,
Jimmy
The terminals I'm thinking of are either:
Greenport-new service to phili, DC, and maybe points south.
Montaulk-summer only extension of Adirondack
Hempstead Transit Center-Extension of Adirondack in the off season
Greenport b/c it is like many of the towns Amtrak serves, and is becomming very popular in the summer. Stops would be Greenport-Riverhead-KO-Hicksville and/or Mineola-Jamaica-Bay Ridge-St George-on to WDC with intermidiate stops. What would be the first NEC stop, Metropark?
Montaulk b/c of the Hamptons. Maybe Summer only, like the Cape Coder service they had. Stops would be Montaulk-Bridgehampton-Southampton-Patchogue-Babylon-Hicksville and/or Mineola-Jamaica-NYP-some west side station-GWBBT-Yonkers-Croton-Poughkeepsie, on to Montreal.
Hempstead Transit Center b/c of the huge amount of bus connections, and it would open direct competition between Greyhound and Amtrak for the LI-Baltimore-WDC service, and with Adirondack Trailways for the HTC-Adirondack service. Stops would be HTC-Jamaica-NYP-some west side station-GWBBT-Yonkers-Poughkeepsie-on to Montreal
Adirondack extends to Hempstead Transit Center, summer service to hamptons. Trains from Greenport to WDC via Bay Ridge line and SI(cross harbor tunnel). Most people drive this exact route. Autotrain summer service to either Pilgim(the new rail yard) or Riverhead from Lorton and Phili area.
So which is better in your opinion?
KO as a terminal...hmm. Interesting idea, maybe half to HTC and half to KO?
As for Patchogue and Montaulk service, I'm thinking take that idea out. Replace it with thruway connector service from KO and/or Riverhead.
How about this idea:
Adirondack to HTC, Empire to KO, and possibly a new line from Greenport(or just KO in the off season)to Florida via SI.
As far as Hempstead goes, I personally know what its like, and I personally am not afraid of traveling through areas with somewhat of a ghetto reputation.....however a) i'd rather not leave my car, and b) I doubt the average person would want to travel through there. Just based on what people hear on News 12, Hempstead isn't a very nice place at all......you hear about shootings and other crimes occurring there all the time, especially at one particular address (Terrace Ave, I think # 101). Granted the news is giving Hempstead more bad press then it deserves (hey, going to the police blotters is an easy, lazy way of getting a lot of news fast!), but it does have an unfortunate consequence of scaring people away, which is a shame, but true. Hempstead is an ideal place for a transit hub since almost every major road in that part of Nassau leads to Hempstead!
Extending Amtrak to Hempstead would be fine IMO, but since most LIRR passangers don't take busses to the trains, you'd get more customers if you had a stop at a station with lots of parking, like Ronkonkoma (at an off hour....)......so you'd still have LIRR passangers taking LIRR trains to Amtrak....however if you could catch Amtrak at Jamaica instead of Penn.....
Correct, most, but there is still a good amount that do. I'm someone who is a very big transit enthusiast and thinks that majority of people that should use public transit, so you probably wont get a fair statement from me about trying to serve a station with more parking over a station with more public transit connections. That said, I still think that the Adirondack should end in Hempstead, and the Empire in KO.
As for the stations served, I think the only stations Amtrak should look at are:
Jamaica
Hempstead
Mineola
Hicksville
KO
and in the summer Riverhead and Greenport
Maybe trains would just bypass Mineola and Hicksville..maybe they'll stop at both. Which do you think is better? Mineola I believe has more bus connections(including Adirondack trailways) and more parking, but Hicksville has a close amount of bus lines and bus service to Jones Beach(which can easily be instituted from Mineola). Also, Mineola is closer and the bus lines I think serve more residential areas, while Hicksville bus lines serve more industrialized areas. Also, some bus lines serve both stations(N78/N79 come to mind)
I actually posted about this back in November/December, trying to book a ticket from Washington, DC to Atlantic City.
Atlantic city is not an Amtrak served destination, but a "thruway" served destination.....and the Thruway service provider is New Jersey Transit!
If you book a regular fare, you shouldn't have a problem. If you are trying to book a discount fare (AAA, student advantage, senior, etc), you get an extrodinarily high price (in my case with WAS - ACY it was $238...student advantage fare), since NJT doesn't recognize the discounts.
THis is rediculous in my opinion, since they could just either: 1) add in the regular NJT fare with a discount Amtrak fare OR 2) tell people that there is not discount available on this route due to the use of NJT.
The way to do it is to purchase the Amtrak segment to Philly seperately (with the discount) from the Philly to ACY segment. The Philly to ACY segment can be purchased at Philly from a machine or agent (NJT that is) or can be purchased as an Amtrak ticket (but use a regular fare). It costs the same no matter how you buy it....that is unless you buy it on the train itself!
You might also want to investigate the possibility of SEPTA and NJT from Philly to NYC if time/transfers aren't an issue. Its much cheaper then $78.
The $238 fare was the same if I did my WAS to ACY itinerary one way or round trip, and if I just did Philly to ACY, one way and round trip were also $238 as well! Thats one darn expensive NJT ticket!
I tried to email you, but the wouldn't deliver, saying you are over your quota...
So I'm not the only one who was shocked by this. I'm not 100% certain but I think the price I got was significantly higher via Amtrak ticketing than the NJT + Amtrak separately. So much so that it shocked me. I didn't have any discounts, I was dealing with full fares. But I do believe the Amtrak website quoted me somewhere around $400 dollars for one adult and one child (4 year old) for one way tickets. I'm too busy to go back to the Amtrak website to check it, may I will later, or if you have minute, see what you get as a price quote if you use no discounts.
We would up using Greyhound, as my girlfriends son felt more comfortable with the one seat ride since he was bringing his 4 year old son with him. I was worried about traffic on the night before Thanksgiving, but it turned out the bus was on time, go figure.
I did book the Amtrak fare ($78) from Philly (figuring he could get the NJT ticket from a TVM at Aycee), and was able to get a full refund as it was a full fare ticket.
It's worth noting that there are no NJT Agents at 30th St Philadelphia, or for that matter at any of SEPTA's stations as far as I know. Also the Customer Service for Amtrak doesn't appreciate being used as the NJT Agent, since they have Amtrak customers to attend to. Unless you buy an AC ticket from Amtrak, or one of the two machines (provided they actually functional and you won't miss the next 3 trains due to lines), you're pretty much out of luck at 30th St Station.
It really shows how little NJT cares for their passengers in South Jersey when they can't provide 30th St Station with a Customer Service representative nor even a courtesy phone to call them up and tell them the machine is busted, again. I'd say somedays the R7 Trenton arrives at trenton with 80% of the passengers who boarded it in center city, and probably more than 90% of those passengers are carrying NJT through-tickets for SEPTA, purchased at one of the machines. Really Amtrak and NJT need to investigate getting NJT a full-time booth with a customer service rep, as well as 2 or 3 more TVMs. It might be a good idea to move the Amtrak police from their position in the NW corner of the station and set up a booth there. A two position window and 3 TVMs is all it'd take, the other two TVMs could be left where they're at.
That being said, it would be a VERY good idea to have a NJT staffer at each of the main Philadelphia stations.
Open all lines to passenger services with unstaffed halts near any settlement at all (so buy tickets on the train), with service provided by nice cheap trains like this one:
The route you described is sort of part of my new Amtrak service from Greenport to Florida idea, just with less stops. So, basically, Amtrak would run limited stops, and LIRR would run the local stops to say...Port Richmond, Si
I wouldn't want to commute from Montauk to New York every day.
I take up to 3 trains in the morning and I don't complain.
These days I ride anywhere from one to four trains to travel a few miles, depending on how the 1/9 is cooperating.
Do you mean NYC subway trains? If so, you can count on them being there within 3 to 5 minutes.
At Jamaica, a connection is planned for within 5 minutes, say. At Stamford, the connections to New Canaan are coordinated; the Princeton feeder is timed. Bus-to-train links (MetroLink in Riverdale) are timed.
But most *commuter rail* is on half-hour schedules, and the connections aren't so carefully timed, or the service is not guaranteed, certainly not outside rush hour. You can't use it for spontaneous trips for shopping and soccer, like you can in Manhattan. Adding a connection to the mix is usually a deal-killer. For me to get anywhere on two MNR lines is usually twice what it takes me to drive.
Regards,
Jimmy
Dashing Dan, I really wish LIRR would take him out of retirement and put him back on the rails. That was definately a great piece of LIRR history.
Also, I'm starting to realize that while the bus connections at HTC are absolutely increadible, it is a bit close to NYP. Still, I think atleast one train per day should operate to HTC, making a stop in Jamaica as well.
"But from Boston and Hartford"
Hampton Jitney already got the Boston-Hamptons market via Bridgeport-Port Jeff ferry. Greyhound already has the Fri-Sun runs from Springfield to HTC that does stop in Hartford. I don't think Amtrak should bother with a service that'd backtrack so much. I think they'd do well however to promote their connection with the cross sound ferries, especially the New London-Orient Point and New London-Montaulk ferries(does the montaulk one still run?)
Yup, still runs. Saw it on the MTA Map. Even saw a ferry for Block Island, RI.
Regards,
Jimmy
Jimmy
But sure, so long as the 11.5kv or 25kv cat comes with it, and we get to tear up some of that stupid, lowly, and inefficient 3rd rail. Don't want to delay riders in NYP with waiting for an engine change, so it'd have to be AEM7ACs and HHP-8s down the sunrise trail.
Then again, this idea is so incredibly laughable that, should Amtrak ever go for it it should immediately be proof that they are unable to operate a railroad effectively, thereby negating their government funding, as has been threatened for years.
Leave LI to LIAR.
The name: "The Islander", or "Hamptons Flyer"
Stops:
Washington, DC
BWI Airport, MD
Baltimore, MD
Wilmington, DE
Philadelphia, PA
Trenton, NJ
MetroPark, NJ
Newark, NJ
New York (Penn Station), NY
Jamaica, NY
Babylon, NY
Westhampton, NY
Southampton, NY
Bridgehampton, NY
East Hampton, NY
Moutauk, NY
Services on the Islander:
Coaches: Reservations required.
Cafe car: Sandwiches, snacks, beverages, and regional specialities.
Hamptons Reserve (Business) Class: Reserved, deluxe seating. Complimentary bevarage.
Also, Amtrak could help NYA with freight on the Island (eg. carrrying loads on the rear of its trains as well.)
That said, I would be all for Amtrak service over the LIRR--provided it didn't interfere with the LIRR rush hour (which is trouble-prone enough already) or perhaps some joint LIRR-Metro-North service between Long Island and The Hudson Valley.
:-) Andrew
Doesn't Amtrak operate on overhead power and diesel, not third rail. Again an engine switch since diesels are banned by NYC law (since the 1800's) from operating in tunnels.
Does the LIRR schedule have the capacity to carry the extra trains through JAM. In rush hours they're operating on or near total capactiy.
Until LIRR gets with the late-20th century and gets some real electrification with 25kv constant tension cat, then the only stuff that will roam the Sunrise Trail will be gap-prone trains sucking up power from an inefficient rail.
As for trains from south of NYP, simple. Use the same equipment that the Empire uses(Genesis?) that has the 3rd rail shoe. Bingo, now the problem is solved.
The Amtrak version of Genesis has retractable shoes and they are only used when they go in and out of penn. Unlike their MNR cousins, the locos are not designed for prolonged run under third rail power. They will probably need to switch to diesel, once they reach Sunnyside. The Turbos should be able to do the same.
Albany to the Hamptons could be a popular train in the summer.
That'd definately get some good ridership.
FORGETABOUTIT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Nobody wants those SLOW things on LIRR ROW.
Just look at all of the hassles that MNRR has with AMTK.
AMTK is an Intercity Service, not an Intracity service.
AMTK stations should generally be no less than 60 miles apart.
Elias
happy *click* *click*!
I'll mention it again.
When Koi got his ticket at Grand Central (7) for taking video and when I was told at Woodside that photography was not permitted, the police officers' copies of the rules omitted the above sentence.
--Mark
Quote me if I am wrong, but musical performances ARE legals if the following conditions are met:
-The performance is in a subway station, not on a train.
-The performers are not using amplified equipment
-The performers are accepting donations from a bin or large cup in front of their "stage", and none of the actors are actively seeking donations by passing the cup around aggressively
-The "stage" is not near a staircase or escalator, a S/B booth area, within an MARKED Authority entrance or tower, or is clearly in obstruction of a passageway or free movement of the platform (in the case of the last item mentioned, the people watching this performance and causing an obstruction is another matter that is not the direct fault of the performers.)
All things aside, I saw the calypso player at Times Square (I think he was in the top 5 as from a recent Fox 5 poll on subway musicians, and was discussed here last week.), he was doing everything legal, and two officers asked them to pack their bags and move on. I told them what they are doing is a direct violation of free speech (performing, as long as the rules are obeyed) and they tell me that the same two officers do that all the time.
As the recent subway car ads for the New School say: "Must we give up Democracy in order to export it overseas?"
--Mark
You are right about the "Arts For Transit" program, but that is only for selected artists who qualify after an audition.
Now, heres my question. What happens if a police officer talks to us about photography being illegal all together, and then threatens to arrest someone if he/she doesnt stop DESPITE that person explaining that photography is illegal?
...DESPITE that person explaining that photography is legal?
word correction
In Baltimore, they love me taking video. I took some on a Light Rail line, then later, took some on the Metro. The motorman asked me if I was that same guy from Channel 2 taking pictures of the Light Rail. For the record, I do not work for Channel 2 in Baltimore, nor were any of the pictures broadcast beyond my living room :-)
I spent an exciting hour this afternoon looking, but unable to find a copy. How does WalMart fill this bin, with a front-end loader?
Has anyone seen this DVD that cheap?
Regards,
Jimmy
Chuck Greene
I got it a few years back as a PVT from Blockbuster. Their records indicated it was a NR copy. It certainly appears to be in perfect condition.
Chuck Greene
but I have a love/hate relationship with WalMart
The main pics are at:
http://palter.org/~brotzman/12-29-03_SEPTA_MID-WINTER_TRIP_III/
And the tower pics are at the top of this list
http://palter.org/~brotzman/Towers/?M=D
And some teaser pics to convince y'all to look.
Here is ACELA Express power car 2016 departing Baltimore
Here is AE power car 2035 arriving Baltimore next to MARC GP40-2WH 63
Here is SEPTA Silverliner IV #102 arriving the Eastwick station on its way to the Airport.
Here is a SEPTA BSS train leaving the Fern Rock terminal as taken from the ramp into the commuter lot.
And finally show switcher 50 towing a dead AEM-7 2302. I'll bet the morning commuters had a crappy day w/ this popular train OOS.
The GP39's are 2300hp units with a seperate HEP engine in the rear.
Inbound to the loop
Sitting on the loop
Subway-Way cars????
Those are streetcars.
Boxy, square, streetcars.
However, they still beat the wheels off a bus.
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
If Pigs invented it, that's why it's wierd and not used by 99 44/100% of the english speaking world.
Over 500 million people worldwide speak English. You really think 2.8 million of them know what it means to take the LIAR to Pig Station?
Westway!
Warum heist Kanada Kanada?
Es gibt keiner da!
Awful German jokes aside, what has Canada got to do with anything?
First, Eastwick station, note the Subtalkers.
And here on the Main Line between Jenkintown and the CC Tunnel
This train is entering from Roberts Yard
And an R7 doing station work at Wayne Jct
Chuck Greene
Just because every engine today has between 3000 and 8000 hp dosen't mean that much hp is needed to move at reasonable speeds. Back in the day most trains were handled with engines of between 1000 and 3000 hp. This extra train made it to OVERBROOK interlocking by 2:06 having left Warminster around 1.
We also saw BL-15 #50 on the December 2002 midwinter SEPTA excursion.
The camera recording equipment is stored in what used to be a bathroom in the front of the car.
Here is a pic of the longitudinal seat on a Silverliner II
When a diamond crossing is accute enough the resulting gaps in the switch frog can result in both an unconfortable passenger ride as well as decreased speed over the crossing and reduced risk of de-railment.
Examples on mainlines can be found here at JENKIN, at CARMEL in Glenside, at some 23rd St junction in Chatanooga TN and at SHELL interlocking in New Roshelle NY.
You can examine this image at Railpictures.net
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=41172 For an example inside a double slip switch.
Regards,
Jimmy
FERN ROCK is where the 3rd track that starts at NEWTOWN JCT terminates. It is a pneumatic interlocking and all tracks entering it operate via Rule 251.
It is a pneumatic interlocking getting its air from the adjacent Fern Rock BSS yard. Here is an A-5 switch machine.
Home signal from the front. The A boards are for a joint work authority further up the track. In fact you can make out the red STOP boards. There were crews working on a bridge.
And the Read. Note that the right signal is of the single housing design while the newer right signal is composed of Safetran "scallop shells" arranged in a V configuration. Typically these are used in traffic light configuration.
Here is a US&S modular dwarf stack for wrong direction entrance.
FERN ROCK is where the 3rd track that starts at NEWTOWN JCT terminates. It is a pneumatic interlocking and all tracks entering it operate via Rule 251.
It is a pneumatic interlocking getting its air from the adjacent Fern Rock BSS yard. Here is an A-5 switch machine.
Home signal from the front. The A boards are for a joint work authority further up the track. In fact you can make out the red STOP boards. There were crews working on a bridge.
And the Read. Note that the right signal is of the single housing design while the newer right signal is composed of Safetran "scallop shells" arranged in a V configuration. Typically these are used in traffic light configuration.
Here is a US&S modular dwarf stack for wrong direction entrance.
I could benefit by missing a few lunches and walking an extra mile.
Here is a Safetran supplied PRR position light guirding CP-WALNUT
And here is a really old Reading vintage, three-unit US&S V-target signal that has been newly painted and upgraded with LED arrays at WAYNE. Note how brilliant the colours are. Way to go SEPTA for keeping the old equipment in service when there was no need to scrap it.
The home signal and interlocking at CARMEL at Glenside. Note the trademark Reading horizontal oval shape bottom 2-lamp head.
Here are the south end of GOROVE NORTH and GROVE SOUTH interlockings that form the ends of the passing siding on the Warminster branch.
Looking north
and south toward Center City
I think we should stop putting so much stuff in our compost heap.
And here's the old Vet down at the sports complex.
ARSENAL had a 99-lever Model 14 machine, but with the demise of freight service it became redundent. In fact, ARSENAL is no longer an interlocking on Amtrak or Conrail. The only ARSENAL left is a SEPTA interlocking where the R2 and R3 split. Most of ARSENAL's duties were taken over by the new PHIL interlocking on Amtrak.
ARSENAL is one of the few places on the NEC where PRR amber positon lights are still in service. SEPTA tracks are the 2 on the left and Amtrak tracks are the two on the right. The Amtrak signals are automatics, the SEPTA signals are automatics in this direction, absolute in the other.
August 1974
November 1974
The tower is in the middle of the Y, right at the entrance to the yard. The tower extends down into the Subway tunnel and has an entrance at that level.
I suspect that NEWTOWN JCT is an old pneumatic plant since converted. You can see there used to be a connection from the Trenton Line to the Main Line heading north, but this has since been removed. It was slightly redundent as there is a connection at WAYNE JCT about a mile or two back behind me.
Compare with this image taken Summer 2002. The jog in the turnout is from the presence of a third track since removed.
JENKIN is an old US&S electric plant. The tower got a new top in the early 90's.
http://nytimes.com/2004/01/25/nyregion/25TRAN.html
Does anyone know where or in which section the picture was taken?
Thanks.
Randy Mason
BTW, the article itself was also very interesting.
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
I'm surprised the section was that well lit.
David
That photo ran along with a NYT story back in October 2003. The section of tunnel is the section that includes the street entrance shown in the photo below:
If you know where that above-ground photo was taken, please tell us. Thanks.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Second Ave, from 99th St to 105th St, 2 tracks.
or
Second Ave, from 110th St to 119th St, 2 tracks.
--Mark
BTW, he's got the Chinatown section in one of his videos.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
--Mark
I don't think any section was "dug and backfilled" - what a waste of time and money! Popular belief these days is the section around 7 St was dug and backfilled; the construction superintendent who worked on the job tells me that only utility relocation was performed.
Or am I just hopelessly naive?
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
My understanding was that "straight tunnel" sections (cut and cover) were done in the two "uptown" spots, but none of the REAL work involving station shells and such had been built. So basically they have two sections done, but 110th Street itself wasn't. Been a long long time.
Mark seems to think that the photo is of the Chinatown section which apparently isn't in the plans for this planned work.
His passion for the history of power generation and distribution is what made the tour today so special.
He took us around the entire plant and showed how the equipment worked. He mentioned that he has hopes of getting one of the rotary converters in running condition for the upcoming anniversary of the subway.
He mentioned that the new subway cars have an energy regeneration feature. I asked him if it was currently functioning, and he said it was. I was surprised to hear that.
I really enjoyed the physical sense of the equipment. The massive converters, knife switches, circuit breakers, meters and bus bars installed in a plant that was built in 1904.
We are very fortunate to have the Power Department headed by someone who loves and respects the history of the system.
It's hard to describe the feel of the place, but I was running my camcorder for the 2 hours that the tour lasted. I would be happy to make a VHS copy for anyone who is interested. Just drop me an e-mail with your name and address.
As a radio engineer, I had the good forture of starting out in the business when much of the transmitter equipment still online was built back in the 1930s and 1940s. Like the rotary substation you visited, they were incredibly imposing.
For instance a 5000 watt AM transmitter that now can fit into one equipment rack used to take up an entire room. And the power and modulation transformers and related inductors and capacitors were in a separate caged room, rather than within the cabinets because they were so massive. 50,000 watt transmitters (such as are used by WABC, WCBS, and WFAN) were even larger. The vacumm tubes in the output stages of these transmitters were so big and heavy that they kept a spare tube IN the transmitter because it was a massive job which included a small crane or lifting device to remove the defective tube. These transmitters were huge behomoths. (WLW in Cincinatti still has an old experimental 500,000 watt transmitter on display that is two stories high with a catwalk along the front and back to reach the upper sections).
Today things are, of course, all solid state -- even the high power transmitters. They are much smaller and sterile in appearance and not nearly so impressive.
I was into ham radio years ago, but never ran anything more that 90 watts into an Eico 720 transmitter, with a 6146 final.
Speaking of hams and broadcast radio, Jean Shepherd was quite a presence on WOR radio back in the '60's and 70's.
I don't know if you're in the New York area, but if you haven't seen Pratt Institute's operating steam generation plant, you should scoot on down there and see a living memorial to 100 years ago. It's presided over by Conrad Milster, the chief engineer of the plant, who also happens to be a railroad buff. He walked me around the plant for over an hour and opened up a breaker and created an arc that was unreal.
Here's a frame I froze from the camcorder.
Arc
It actually wasn't this intense. Had it been, I think I would have ended up some 1960's Outer Limits show.
Both Conrad Milster of Pratt and Robert Lobenstein of TA Power Operations love their equipment and love sharing it with people.
I am doing my best to keep the site fresh despite being in Boston eight months a year.
-Harry
--Mark
However they like The Streetcar Named Desired.
932
972
(Bring back the 84 streetcar!)
Mark
Karl definition of Trolley: 2 a : a device that carries electric current from an overhead wire to an electrically driven vehicle
b : a streetcar powered electrically through a trolley; called also trolley car.
Definition of Streetcar: a vehicle on rails used primarily for transporting passengers and typically operating on city streets.
For many of us purists calling the beloved vehicles we are trying
to preserve it is blasphemy to call it a trolley,
even being a life long resident of Brooklyn, home of the Trolley Dodgers.
Or as I describe as a Museum Docent, Trolley is the accepted slang
description for a Streetcar.
8>) ~ Sparky
As for our New Orleans streetcars, they indeed get their power from trolley poles, so calling them trolleys is technically correct local sensitivities notwithstanding.
Mark
Growing up in Brooklyn, they were always trolleys to me. I have never been to New Orleans, and in the little time I have left, I doubt if I will ever get there.
I guess I am safe in still thinking of them as trolleys.
It's being Politically Correct and also with so many of the rubber tired klones all about, that they call "Trolleys" we have to distinguish our steel wheeled friends.
In Brooklyn, they were Trolleys faw suwe. But on the other hand
in Brooklyn, they resided in "Car Houses" not "Car Barns". And the destination was Depot. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
In Philly too, don't forget, and we're lucky enough to still have them!
Mark
Mark
8>) ~ Sparky
Underground, signs point to the "Subway-Surface," but west of the portal, the stops say TROLLEY >>B61<<
and it's >B48< not >B61<, closer to home.
8>) ~ Sparky
Frank Hicks
Pullman R-46 #6154 just outside Avenue N.
Pullman R-46 #6144 on the middle track bypass at Smith-9th.
Budd R-32 #3736 on the same bypass
Bombardier R-142 #6715 approaching Gun Hill Road.
and the Extra Shot of the day.....
One Froze Dead Ass Rat at Smith-9th
Regards,
Trevor Logan
TransiTALK Transportation Media
Regards,
Trevor
Was he a cousin of Mr. Montague or Mrs. Sea Beach?
I'm ok with the Brighton, and the other BMT elevated lines in Brooklyn, but I don't see anything special about it.
Though I imagine it's not as bad as Queens Blvd, where one delay causes backups on every single train. ;-)
New York when it's clear ... mm! mm! mm!
Trevor
Trevor
At least this time you had no one else to contend with, unlike the mass hysteria and fun we had on the MOD trip.
must be real cold for you (and the rat)
Not a good morning for me. I missed my LIRR train (actually, I missed the one :30 after the one I had planned to take) so I figured I'd drive to the long term lot. I arrived at the long term lot at 9:50 hoping to catch a 10:30 flight. Not good -- especially when an AirTrain pulled out just as I was getting to the station and the signs said service was running every 9 minutes.
I figured my only hope for getting to the American terminals (8/9) was to take the train to Terminal 1 and then switch for a clockwise running Terminals Only train to get me to 8/9 quicker.
As luck would have it, there was a train waiting on the other side as my train pulled into Terminal 1. Strangely, it was two cars and not the single car operation I've usually seen on the terminal loop. I dashed across the platform with my bags in tow and got on just as the doors were closing -- then the train takes off in the same direction as the one I had been on!!! So there were two two-car Airtrains going around the loop in the same direction at the exact same time.
Adding a bit of insult to injury, my train seemed to have its doors programmed to stay open a bit longer than my original train -- so I watched as my original train arrived 8/9 while we still had the doors open at Terminal 7.
At least I was able to get easily switched to a noon flight, and even caught a good glimpse of the Coaster yard off of I-5 before the sun went down...
Has anyone seen this counter-clockwise operation on the Terminal loop before?
CG
No. That's whack.
But you did get a look at the Coaster - that's a pretty train, don't you think?
I still can't get over that they had both trains running counter-clockwise. I had even discussed with someone here the strategy of switching from the Jamaica or Howard Beach trains at T-1 onto the loop trains to save time getting to T-8/9. As I saw the situation develop, I had visions of posting my heroic triumph on SubTalk. Instead, I'm just glad nobody had a camera to catch the stupid look on my face as the train took off in the opposite direction to what I was expecting...
The coasters are very handsome -- I haven't done the I-5 drive in daylight in a few years, so they came up unexpectedly. I'll have to slow down a bit on the way back.
I don't have enough time to do any railfanning this trip -- unless Wednesday's forecasted snow in NY cancels my return trip. Wouldn't that be a shame -- snowed into Southern California with nothing to do but chase trains?
CG
Or you could even say, the person that I met on the train 10 years ago that I haven't forgotten.
I , for example would like to set my alarm clock to This, since it's a relatively pleasent thing to rouse me from dreamland, which clocks are melted on poles and all you hear is this.
#3 West End Jeff
Hey! What's wrong with the weather. We got more snow than you did, and all of our county roads (the paved roads that is) are cleared an opened. (Both of them!)
: ) Elias
In a word: COLD!
So both of your roads were plowed out. How many cars needed service because of the very cold weather?
#3 West End Jeff
I saw a guy there last week cleaning the machines, but it didn't seem to help. We are back at it this week again.
Metro
Delays of 15 to 20 minutes on all lines because of ice and snow in the doors of Metro trains. Metro bus and Metro Access are restricted to snow emergency routes only.
» Amtrak
No delays. No cancellations.
» VRE
VRE will operate on its regular schedule.
» MARC
The MARC Camden and Brunswick lines are operating on an "S" or Holiday schedule. Paratransit Service is operating for dialysis needs only. MTA buses are experiencing some difficulties. Most buses are attempting to run normal schedules, but MTA advises commuters to seek routes on main thoroughfares or snow emergency routes, because some secondary roads are unplowed. Twelve MTA buses are operating on diverted routes. The buses are numbers 8, 33, 50, 15, 20, 36, 5, 2, 64, 51, 23 and 16.
I will be waiting for you to come shovel me out, meanwhile, I will go make some hot chocolate and watch My Fair Lady, which I have been meaning to do for quite some time. If you need assistance finding my house, Chris Der (New Look Terrapin) would be more than happy to assist you. And to give you an example of how shut down this city is, read the list of closings and delays from WTOP Radio (all regional public schoools are closed, federal government is open with unscheduled leave):
MARYLAND:
» Academy of Computer Education, Greenbelt - closed (Monday)
» Academy of the Holy Cross, Kensington - closed (Monday)
» Al-Huda School, College Park - closed (Monday)
» All Saints All Day Child Care Center, Chevy Chase - closed (Monday)
» Allegany County Public Schools- closed (Monday)
» American Computer Utopia, Hyattsville - All national computer certification board exams canceled. Morning classes canceled. (Monday)
» Anne Arundel County Public Schools- closed - Code RED. (Monday)
» Archdiocese of Washington Elementary Schools in Montgomery County- closed (Monday)
» Avalon School, Rockville - closed (Monday)
» Baltimore City Public Schools- closed - Liberal leave for employees. (Monday)
» Baltimore County Public Schools- closed (Monday)
» Barrie School, Silver Spring - closed - (Monday)
» Berwin Baptist School, College Park - closed (Monday)
» Bowie State University- closed (Monday)
» Bradley Hills Presbyterian Nursery School, Bethesda - closed (Monday)
» Brooksfield School, McLean - closed - (Monday)
» Bullis School, Potomac - closed (Monday)
» Calvert County Public Schools- closed - Employees code Yellow (Monday)
» Capital Christian Academy, Upper Marlboro - closed (Monday)
» Caroline County Public Schools- closed (Monday)
» Carroll County Public Schools- closed - Liberal leave in effect for 12-month employees. (Monday)
» Charles County Public Schools- closed - Code RED (Monday)
» Charles E. Smith Jewish Day School, Rockville - closed - Finals for seniors will be rescheduled for Tuesday (Monday)
» Chelsea School, Silver Spring - closed (Monday)
» Christ Episcopal School, Rockville - closed (Monday)
» Church of the Redeemer Christian School, Gaithersburg - closed (Monday)
» Clinton Christian School, Upper Marlboro - closed (Monday)
» College of Jewish Studies, Rockville - Classes cancelled for school and the board of Jewish education. (Monday)
» College of Notre Dame of Maryland, Baltimore - closed (Monday)
» College of Southern Maryland- closed - All campuses closed. (Monday)
» Columbia Academy, Columbia - 2 hr. delay (Monday)
» Columbia Union College, Takoma Park - Opening at noon (Monday)
» Congregation B'nai Tedzek, Potomac - Religious school cancelled. (Monday)
» Covenant Christian School, Germantown - closed (Monday)
» Dorchester County Public Schools- closed (Monday)
» Ets Chaiyim Tree of Life School, Montgomery Village - closed (Monday)
» FAES Graduate School at NIH, Bethesda - evening classes cancelled. (Monday)
» First Baptist School of Laurel, Laurel - closed (Monday)
» Forcey Christian School, Silver Spring - closed (Monday)
» Fort Detrick, Frederick - closed - Emergency personnel must report. (Monday)
» Frederick County Public Schools- closed (Monday)
» French International School, Bethesda - closed (Monday)
» Georgetown Preparatory School, North Bethesda - closed (Monday)
» German School, Potomac - closed (Monday)
» Goddard School at Hickory Ridge, Columbia - closed (Monday)
» Har Shalom Early Childhood Center, Potomac - closed (Monday)
» Har Shalom Early Childhood Education Center- closed (Monday)
» Harford County Public Schools- closed - Code Green for employees. (Monday)
» Hebrew Day School of Montgomery County, Silver Spring - closed (Monday)
» Highland Park Christian Academy, Landover - closed (Monday)
» Holton Arms School, Bethesda - closed (Monday)
» Hood College, Frederick - closed (Monday)
» Howard Community College, Columbia - closed (Monday)
» Howard County Public Schools- closed (Monday)
» Ivymount School, Rockville - closed (Monday)
» Jewish Community Center of Greater Washington, Rockville - Code purple. (Monday)
» Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore/Washington region - closed (Monday)
» Kent County Public Schools- closed (Monday)
» Kiddie Academy, Oxon Hill - closed (Monday)
» Landon School, Bethesda - closed (Monday)
» Lourie Center School, Rockville - closed (Monday)
» Love of Learning Montessori School, Columbia - closed - school and day care. (Monday)
» Loyola College, Baltimore - closed - All locations. Day and evening classes (Monday)
» Maple Springs Baptist College and Seminary- closed (Monday)
» McDaniel College- closed (Monday)
» McLean School of Maryland, Potomac - closed (Monday)
» Melvin J. Berman Hebrew Academy, Rockville - closed (Monday)
» Mitchellville Children's House, Mitchellville - closed - Closed Friday (Monday)
» Montgomery College, All campuses - All campuses opening at noon. (Monday)
» Montgomery County Public Schools- No school for students. Professional day for teachers is canceled BUT administrative personnel should report on a 3-hour delay. Liberal leave is in effect. (Monday)
» Montrose Christian School, Rockville - closed - Child Development Center opens two hours late. (Monday)
» Mount Saint Mary's College, Emmitsburg - closed (Monday)
» National Christian Academy, Fort Washington - closed (Monday)
» Naval Academy, Annapolis - 2 hr. delay - Code Yellow. (Monday)
» Norwood School, Bethesda - closed (Monday)
» Oak Chapel School, Silver Spring - closed (Monday)
» Oneness - Family School, Chevy Chase - closed (Monday)
» Open Hands Christian Academy, Temple Hills - closed (Monday)
» Our Lady of Good Counsel High School, Wheaton - closed (Monday)
» Park School, Baltimore - closed (Monday)
» Potomac Village School, Bethesda - closed (Monday)
» Prince George's Community College, Largo - closed (Monday)
» Prince George's County Public Schools- closed - (Monday)
» Providence Christian School, Burtonsville - closed (Monday)
» Queen Anne School, Upper Marlboro - closed - Code C and cyber day. (Monday)
» Queen Anne's County Public Schools- closed - Schools and offices closed. In-services canceled. (Monday)
» Queen Anne's Episcopal School, Upper Marlboro - closed - Employees on Code C Cyberday. (Monday)
» Saint Francis Episcopal Day School, Potomac - closed (Monday)
» Saint John's College, Annapolis - closed (Monday)
» Saint Mary's College of Maryland- closed (Monday)
» Sandy Spring Friends School, Sandy Spring - closed - All activities canceled. (Monday)
» Seneca Academy & the Circle School, Darnestown - closed (Monday)
» Shaare Tefila Nursery School and Kindergarten, Silver Spring - closed - No parent-teacher conferences. (Monday)
» Somerset County Public Schools- closed (Monday)
» Spencerville Adventist Academy, Silver Spring - closed (Monday)
» St. Andrews Episcopal School, Potomac, MD - closed (Monday)
» St. Ann's Day Care Center, Hyattsville - closed (Monday)
» St. Mary of the Mills School, Laurel - closed (Monday)
» St. Mary's County Public Schools- closed - Code 4 for employees (Monday)
» Strayer University- All morning classes cancelled. Opening at 11am. (Monday)
» Takoma Academy, Takoma Park - closed (Monday)
» Talbot County Public Schools- closed (Monday)
» The Fourth Presbyterian School, Potomac - closed (Monday)
» The Heights School, Potomac - closed (Monday)
» The Newport School, Silver Spring - closed - Closed (Monday)
» Thornton Friends Schools- closed - All campuses closed in Maryland and Virginia (Monday)
» Torah School of Greater Washington, Silver Spring - closed (Monday)
» Towson University- closed (Monday)
» Trinity School, Ellicott City - closed (Monday)
» Ultrasound Diagnostic School, Landover - 2 hr. delay - Opening at 10am (Monday)
» Uniformed Services University of the Health Sciences, Bethesda - Open with unscheduled leave (Monday)
» University of Baltimore- closed - Essential personnel must report (Monday)
» University of Maryland Balitmore County, Catonsville - Opens at noon. (Monday)
» University of Maryland Baltimore County, Catonsville - closed (Monday)
» University of Maryland College Park- closed (Monday)
» University of Maryland Shady Grove Center, Gaithersburg - closed (Monday)
» University of Phoenix, Maryland campus - Opening at noon (Monday)
» US Federal Court Greenbelt, Greenbelt - closed (Monday)
» Walden Montessori Academy, Bethesda - closed (Monday)
» Washington Bible College, Lanham - closed (Monday)
» Washington County Public Schools- closed (Monday)
» Washinton Christian Academy, Silver Spring - closed (Monday)
» Wicomico County Public Schools- closed (Monday)
» Woods Academy, Bethesda - closed (Monday)
» Worcester County Public Schools- closed (Monday)
» Yeshiva of Greater Washington, Silver Spring - closed (Monday)
» Young Israel Shomrai Emunah Nursery School, Silver Spring - closed (Monday)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
VIRGINIA:
» The Art League School, Old Towne Alexandria - closed (Monday)
» Ad Fontes Academy, Centreville - closed - Both campuses are closed (Monday)
» Agape Christian Academy, Alexandria - closed (Monday)
» Alexandria City Public Schools- closed - Code Green (Monday)
» Alexandria Country Day School, Alexandria - closed (Monday)
» All Saints Catholic School, Manassas - closed (Monday)
» Ambleside School of Reston- closed (Monday)
» Ambrose School, Annandale - closed (Monday)
» Angelus Academy, Springfield - closed (Monday)
» Aquinas School, Woodbridge - closed (Monday)
» Arlington County Public Schools- closed - Schools are closed.There is no teacher work day. Liberal Leave is in effect for 12-month employees. (Monday)
» Bishop O'Connell High School, Arlington - closed (Monday)
» Browne Academy, Alexandria - closed (Monday)
» Burgundy Farm Country Day School- closed - Offices closed. (Monday)
» Children's Academy, Stafford - closed (Monday)
» Congregation Adat Reyim, Springfield - closed (Monday)
» Congressional Schools of Virginia, Falls Church - closed (Monday)
» Country Day School, McLean - closed (Monday)
» Culpeper County Public Schools- closed - Code ONE (Monday)
» Daystar Children's Center, Alexandria - closed (Monday)
» ECPI College of Technology, Northern Virginia - Opening at Noon. (Monday)
» Emmanuel Christian School, Manassas - closed (Monday)
» Engleside Christian School, Alexandria - closed (Monday)
» Epiphany Catholic School, Culpeper - closed (Monday)
» Evangel Christian School, Dale City - closed (Monday)
» Fairfax Baptist Temple Academy, Fairfax - closed (Monday)
» Fairfax County Public Schools- All evening activities cancelled, including school board public hearing. (Monday)
» Faith Baptist Schools and extended care, Fredericksburg - closed (Monday)
» Falls Church City Public Schools- closed - (Monday)
» Fauquier County Public Schools- closed - Code RED. (Monday)
» Flint Hill School, Oakton - closed (Monday)
» Fresta Valley Christian School, Marshall - closed (Monday)
» George Mason University- closed (Monday)
» Germanna Community College, Fredicksburg and Locust Grove - closed - Day classes are cancelled. Employees do not report. Evening classes to be announced. (Monday)
» Gesher Jewish Day School, Fairfax - closed (Monday)
» Heritage Christian School, Woodbridge - closed (Monday)
» Highland School, Warrenton - closed (Monday)
» Holy Spirit School, Annandale - closed (Monday)
» Hope Aglow Christian Academy, Woodbridge - 1 hr. delay - Pre-school on one-hour delay. (Monday)
» Immanuel Lutheran School, Alexandria - closed (Monday)
» Linton Hall School, Bristow - closed (Monday)
» Lord Fairfax Community College, Middletown, Fauquier campuses - closed - Code Red for employees. A decision will be made later about evening classes. (Monday)
» Loudoun Country Day School, Leesburg - closed (Monday)
» Loudoun County Public Schools- closed - 12 month employees report two hours late. (Monday)
» Madison County Public Schools- closed (Monday)
» Manassas City Public Schools, Manassas City - closed - Code Blue for employees (Monday)
» Manassas Park City Schools, Manassas Park - closed (Monday)
» Mary Washington College, Fredericksburg - Opening at 9am (Monday)
» Marymount University, Arlington - closed (Monday)
» Merit School of Prince William- School programs closed. Child care open 9:00 a.m. (Monday)
» Merritt Academy, Fairfax - closed - No extended daycare. (Monday)
» Nativity School, Burke - closed (Monday)
» Northern Virginia Community College, all campuses - closed - Evening classes to be announced. (Monday)
» Notre Dame Academy, Middleburg - closed (Monday)
» Nysmith School for the Gifted, Herndon - closed (Monday)
» Oakcrest School, McLean - closed (Monday)
» Oakwood School, Annandale - closed (Monday)
» Omni Ride Omni Link, Prince William County - Operating on emergency service plan. (Monday)
» Our Lady of Good Counsel, Vienna - closed (Monday)
» Paul the Sixth Catholic High School, Fairfax City - closed (Monday)
» Potomac School, McLean - closed (Monday)
» Prince William County Schools- closed - Code Red for employees (Monday)
» Queen of Apostles School, Alexandria - closed (Monday)
» Saint Francis of Assisi Catholic School, Triangle - closed (Monday)
» Saint James Catholic, Falls Church - closed (Monday)
» Saint John School, McLean - closed (Monday)
» Saint Michael School, Annandale - closed (Monday)
» Spotsylvania County Public Schools- closed - 12 month employees code "0" (Monday)
» St. Agnes, Arlington - closed (Monday)
» St. Ann School, Arlington - closed (Monday)
» St. Leo the Great Catholic School, Fairfax - closed (Monday)
» St. Luke Catholic Elementary School, McLean - closed (Monday)
» St. Thomas More Cathedral School, Arlington - closed (Monday)
» Stafford County Government- 2 hr. delay - Opening two hours late and juvenile court is closed. (Monday)
» Stafford County Public Schools- closed - CODE ONE. Essential personnel report. Teacher workday cancelled. (Monday)
» Temple Baptist School, Herndon - closed (Monday)
» The Montessori School of Herndon- closed (Monday)
» Trinity Christian School, Fairfax - closed (Monday)
» University of Northern Virginia- closed (Monday)
» University of Phoenix, Virginia campus - closed - Monday night classes are cancelled. (Monday)
» University of Virginia, Northern Virginia Center - closed (Monday)
» Vienna Adventist Academy, Vienna - closed - No parent-teacher conferences. (Monday)
» Virginia Tech, Northern Virginia Center - closed (Monday)
» Way of Faith Christian Academy, Fairfax - closed (Monday)
» Woodbine Baptist Christian School, Manassas - closed (Monday)
» Word of Life Christian Academy, Springfield - closed (Monday)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DISTRICT:
» Adas Israel Religious School, Washington, D.C. - closed - Class cancelled (Monday)
» American University- closed (Monday)
» Beauvoir School- closed (Monday)
» Capital City Public Charter School- closed (Monday)
» Capitol City Public Charter School- closed (Monday)
» Catholic University- closed (Monday)
» Chevy Chase Plaza Children's Center- closed (Monday)
» D.C. Public Schools- closed - Code Red for employees. (Monday)
» Easter Seals Child Development Center- Opening at 9am. (Monday)
» George Washington University- Classes cancelled. Liberal Leave in effect. All designated employees must report. (Monday)
» Georgetown University- Open. Liberal leave in effect. (Monday)
» Howard University, Washington - closed - All essential personnel must report (Monday)
» Ideal Academy Public Charter School- closed (Monday)
» Jewish Primary Day School of Nation's Capital, Washington D.C. - closed - No jazz. (Monday)
» Lowell School- closed (Monday)
» Maret School, Northwest - closed (Monday)
» Nannie Helen Burroughs School- closed (Monday)
» National Cathedral School- closed (Monday)
» National Presbyterian School- closed (Monday)
» Paul Jr. High Public Charter School, Washington, DC - closed (Monday)
» Rock Creek International School- closed - Both campuses closed. (Monday)
» Sheridan School- closed (Monday)
» Sidwell Friends School- closed (Monday)
» Southeastern University- opens at 10:30 (Monday)
» St. Albans School- closed (Monday)
» St. John's College High School- closed (Monday)
» The Field School- closed (Monday)
» Trinity College- closed (Monday)
» University of the District of Columbia- closed (Monday)
» Washington Hebrew Congregation- Early childhood center and primary school are closed. (Monday)
» Washington School of the Ballet- closed (Monday)
» Webster University, Washington, D.C. - closed - No evening classes (Monday)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
GOVERNMENT & MILITARY:
» Alexandria (City of) Government- Open with liberal leave for employees. (Monday)
» Andrews Air Force Base- Mission essential and emergency personnel must report. Non emergency staff are excused. Administrative leave in effect for non emergency employees. Routine medical appointments are canceled. (Monday)
» Arlington County Government- Open with unscheduled leave. Arlington County courts are closed. (Monday)
» Calvert County Circuit and District Courts- closed (Monday)
» Calvert County Circuit Court- 2 hr. delay (Monday)
» Calvert County District Court- closed (Monday)
» Calvert County Government- 2 hr. delay - District and Circuit Courts closed. (Monday)
» Charles County Circuit Court- closed (Monday)
» Charles County District Court- closed (Monday)
» Charles County Government- Open with liberal leave for employees (Monday)
» City of Falls Church, VA- Open with unscheduled leave (Monday)
» City of Manassas Government- Open with Liberal Leave. (Monday)
» City of Rockville- Liberal leave in effect for employees. (Monday)
» D.C. Government- Open with liberal leave. Essential employees must report. (Monday)
» Fairfax (City of) Government- Open, liberal leave in effect. (Monday)
» Fairfax County Courts- Courts are open. Liberal leave for staff (Monday)
» Fairfax County Government- Open, with unscheduled leave for employees. Emergency service personnel must report as scheduled. (Monday)
» Fauquier County Government- closed (Monday)
» Federal Government- Open with unscheduled leave policy in effect. (Monday)
» Fort Meade- Reduced Operations for all non critical personnel. Critical personnel report as scheduled. (Monday)
» Harford County Government- Liberal leave policy in effect (Monday)
» Howard County Government- Liberal Leave in effect. (Monday)
» Indian Head Division Naval Surface Warfare Center, Indian Head Maryland - Open with Liberal Leave in effect. (Monday)
» Library of Congress- Open under an unscheduled leave policy. (Monday)
» Manassas Park City Government, Manassas Park - Open, Liberal leave in effect. (Monday)
» Marine Barracks of Washington, D.C.- closed - Code Red, essential personnel only. (Monday)
» Marine Corps Base Quantico- Code Blue. Opening at Noon. Schools are closed. (Monday)
» Montgomery County Board of Elections- Election judge training classes are cancelled at both sites and will be rescheduled. (Monday)
» Montgomery County Circuit Court- closed - (Monday)
» Montgomery County District Court- closed (Monday)
» Montgomery County Government- Open with employees on liberal leave. (Monday)
» National Emergency Training Center, Emmitsburg - closed (Monday)
» National Institute of Standards and Technology, Gaithersburg - Two hour delay and unscheduled leave. (Monday)
» National Naval Medical Center, Bethesda - Open under unscheduled leave. (Monday)
» National Reconnaissance Office, Chantilly - Operating under an unscheduled leave policy. (Monday)
» Naval District Washington Indian Head- Open with Liberal Leave. (Monday)
» Patuxent River Naval Air Station, Maryland - 1 hr. delay - Liberal leave in effect. (Monday)
» Prince George's County Circuit Court- closed (Monday)
» Prince George's County Govt.- Liberal leave in effect. Both the District and Circuit Courts are closed. (Monday)
» St. Mary's District Court- 2 hr. delay (Monday)
» U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, Baltimore District - 4 hour delay. Liberal leave in effect. (Monday)
» U.S. Supreme Court- Open, with unscheduled leave policy (Monday)
» US Army Corps of Engineers- 2 hr. delay (Monday)
» Warrenton Training Center- Code Yellow - 4 hour delay - Unscheduled leave in effect. (Monday)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OTHER:
» Acca Child Development Center, Annandale - closed (Monday)
» Alexandria Library, Alexandria - Open at 10a.m., closes at 5p.m. (Monday)
» Bible Babies Child Development Center, Landover - closed (Monday)
» Broadman Kaplan Early Childhood Center of Tikvat Israel, Rockville - closed (Monday)
» Center for Mental Health, D.C. - closed (Monday)
» Children of America Daycare, Virginia - closed - All locations closed. (Monday)
» Church of the Nativity, Burke - closed - Religous Education Classes and RCIA classes cancelled. (Monday)
» D.C. Housing Authority- Leave code yellow in effect. (Monday)
» Fannie Mae- Code Two. Liberal Leave in effect. (Monday)
» First Baptist Church of Hyattsville, Hyattsville - Hyattsville Hills Child and Family Center closed today. (Monday)
» Georgetown Ward Circle Meals on Wheels- closed - Meals canceled. (Monday)
» Glen Echo Park Partnership for Arts and Culture- Daytime activities cancelled. (Monday)
» Holy Family Catholic Church, Dale City - Evening RCIA is cancelled. (Monday)
» Housing Opportunites Commission- Open. Liberal Leave in effect. Critical employees must report. (Monday)
» Howard County Library- All branches open at 1 p.m. (Monday)
» Jewish Community Center of Northern Virginia, Fairfax - Delayed opening at 8am. (Monday)
» Lab School of Washington- closed (Monday)
» Levine School of Music- closed - This applies to all campuses. (Monday)
» Lewinsville Presbyterian Church, McLean - closed - Offices closed (Monday)
» Literacy Council of Montgomery County, Wheaton - closed (Monday)
» Little People Daycare, Germantown - 1 hr. delay (Monday)
» Loudoun County Transit- closed - No commuter bus service (Monday)
» Loving Care Early Learning Centers, Silver Spring and Gaithersburg - Will open at 9 a.m. (Monday)
» Marion duPont Scott Equine Medical Center, Leesburg - Liberal Leave (Monday)
» Maryland Library Association- Legislative reception scheduled for this evening has been cancelled. (Monday)
» Maryland State Teacher's Association- School funding rally in Annapolis is postponed until February 9th. (Monday)
» Melwood Nazarene Daycare Center, Upper Marlboro - closed (Monday)
» Montrose Christian Child Development Center, Rockville - 2 hr. delay (Monday)
» National Louis University- closed - All classes cancelled. (Monday)
» National Museum of Civil War Medicine, Frederick - closed (Monday)
» Ottley Music School, Hyattsville - closed (Monday)
» Our Expanding World, Tacoma Park/Beltsville - closed (Monday)
» Prince William Forest Park- closed (Monday)
» Rosemount Center- closed (Monday)
» Saint Leo's Catholic Church, Fairfax - Religious classes are cancelled for today. (Monday)
» Saint Mary of the Mills Church, Laurel - Religious education classes cancelled and parent meetings cancelled. (Monday)
» Saint Peter Church, Olney - Religious education classes cancelled. (Monday)
» Sanz School, Falls Church, Silver Spring, DC - closed - Offices open. (Monday)
» Shabach Child Care Center, Landover - closed (Monday)
» Shady Grove Adventist Hospital- Need volunteers with 4WD vehicles to transport nurses to hospital. Call 301-279-6000. (Monday)
» Silver Spring Learning Center- closed - Nursery and childcare closed. (Monday)
» Small Wonders Childcare, Burtonsville - closed (Monday)
» Social Security Administration, Baltimore - 2 hr. delay (Monday)
» St. Albans Early Childhood Center- closed - closed (Monday)
» Warrenton Baptist Tiny Tots, Warrenton - closed (Monday)
» Washington Conservatory of Music- closed (Monday)
» Winwood Childrens Centers, of Northern Virginia - 2 hr. delay (Monday)
» YMCA, Ayrlawn Center in Bethesda - opening at 8am (Monday)
» YMCA, Alexandria - Closing Early - Closing at 8am (Monday)
» YMCA, Capitol View - closed (Monday)
» YMCA, Anthony Bowen - closed (Monday)
» YMCA - Calomiris- closed (Monday)
» YMCA - Veterans Memorial, South Arlington - closed (Monday)
» YMCA Prince George's County- closed (Monday)
» YMCA Silver Spring- Opening at 10am. (Monday)
: )
Mark
Mark
p.s.--We've got about a foot of snow and as they say on the McD's commercials..."I'm lovin it"--thanks to 4-Wheel Drive---what a blast.
Negatory--although I could pick up a little disturbance about where the signal would be...
Mark
I wish I was you! I love driving in the snow.
Mark
I was watching the news and a lot of folks opted to leave their cars and take the metro today, nice to hear.
We should've betted on this. We could've been rich! ;)
Long live the "ALL WEATHER Rapid Transit L-Subway"!
Care to retract that last post of yours?
Mark
p.s.--When the Cumberland Times/News prints the Top 10 Most Wanted List--it usually is Bad Check Violations, Failure To Appear, or DWI/DUI.
All i see are three missing item icons.
Apparently you don't live anywhere in the Baltimore/DC areas.
You loose.
Even the TWTA (Third World Transit Adaministration, a knock name for the Maryland Transit Adaministration) has 85% of their screwed up bus system in operation.
Move where you have to shovel before you make critical comments about transit in the snow.
Now, last year, with the blizzard, I explained to you last night why they wound up with a full system shutdown. I don't want to explain it again. The facts have been laid out. He called you ignorant after claiming it did not snow. If you look at the "Yesterday's Weather" page on weather.com for my zip code, it says it snowed. Saying it didn't snow is almost like saying the sky is green and the sun is purple. While he may have been a bit extreme, you posted pure nonsense in a futile attempt to keep your argument going. Now, how about responding to the post in which there is clearly snow on my lawn and Chris Der's lawn?
And I hope you like my front lawn. Maybe you can shovel it for me so I can get out when we get 2 feet of snow and ride the Metro.
But I think the only part of the closings list that matters is the Federal Government. Because such a big chunk of Metro's ridership consists of federal employees, if the Federal Government is open, Metro will bust their humps to run trains. And if not, well . . . .
Not that there's anything wrong with ridiculous postings (from my perspective).
CG
: )
Mark
Mark
p.s.--We've got about a foot of snow and as they say on the McD's commercials..."I'm lovin it"--thanks to 4-Wheel Drive---what a blast.
Negatory--although I could pick up a little disturbance about where the signal would be...
Mark
I wish I was you! I love driving in the snow.
Mark
I was watching the news and a lot of folks opted to leave their cars and take the metro today, nice to hear.
Hilary Duff is carzy sh*t.
Mark
Do you have to leave it in 2WD to do doughnuts?
Just to give you a "heads-up" as to where I live, if you opened up your favorite little Maryland State Map----"go west young man"---look for I-68---as you follow it westward, you'll see Cumberland, then eventually, you'll see Frostburg---the north/south route at Frostburg is MD 36----go down about 7 miles to the town of Lonaconing---that's where I live, and yes, there is a Moscow, MD (a couple miles further south).
Mark
p.s.---In the words of the Honorable Gov. Shaffer---"Please Drive Gently"
Well there were three pine trees, but he didn’t hit them, he did lose his life.
John did 400+ miles today between Snow Hill and Baltimore and back today. On The way back around 2130 I came upon wreck at mile post 89 on MD US-50 just east of Cambridge. An eighteen wheeler jack knifed the tractor 180 degrees and sheared off the cab of the tractor as he slid off the icy road into ditch on the right.
Not as dramatic as the multiple vehicle fog incident that happen when I was up your way but tragic never the less.
John
Mark
And as for watching those "drawl-Americans" do their thing for CNN's web-cams, YEE-HAH! THAT'S NASCAR for ya. "A little TOUCHUP ... a little TOUCHUP for ya" as Gregory Hines said in "Deal of the Century." :)
Mark
p.s.---You know what the the West Virginia State Color is don't you?
Primer Red
I got 10 to 11 inches of the white stuff down here in Hastings-on-Hudson. It seems that Metro-North managed to do O.K. through this storm. Some of the tertiary roads aren't too good especially in Yonkers, but the main roads are in reasonably good shape. My street is in good shape since it is a snow emergency route and a main residential street.
#3 West End Jeff
I drove past the "I-95 Tanker Explosion" site southbound about 30 minutes after MD SHA opened two of the southbound lanes. The only thing that was clearly visible in the debris were the doors attached to about 10 feet of the rear of the Strick Lease trailer.
John
When I got back to 69th St Terminal from Norristown, I headed for the Rt101 trolley to Media. I wound up with car number 100, the original Red Arrow K-car. I had planned originally to ride to Paper Mill Rd by Crum Creek Bridge and take pictures of the trolleys crossing the old bridge, but drexel didn't have the camera I wanted, so I just settled for riding to Media and back. I have to admit I have a love-hate relationship with the 101, on one hand it's generally a very scenic route that provides plenty of opertunity for photo ops, on the other hand, it's got Springfield mall's parking lot atop it's track at one point, and 476 ruins a very good stretch of track, especially in the winter, when it's brown dirt clashes with the pristine snow. However, I still like it, since I don't think I've ever seen a trolley or LRV running through the forest like that.
Oh well, I just got back, stopped off at the grocery store and all, now I gotta go, class at 2.
And sorry for no pics.
But I'm glad you had fun.
Thanks.
Billy P.
'Guy Hanging Between Cars'
We should've betted on this. We could've been rich! ;)
Long live the "ALL WEATHER Rapid Transit L-Subway"!
Care to retract that last post of yours?
Mark
p.s.--When the Cumberland Times/News prints the Top 10 Most Wanted List--it usually is Bad Check Violations, Failure To Appear, or DWI/DUI.
All i see are three missing item icons.
Apparently you don't live anywhere in the Baltimore/DC areas.
You loose.
Even the TWTA (Third World Transit Adaministration, a knock name for the Maryland Transit Adaministration) has 85% of their screwed up bus system in operation.
Move where you have to shovel before you make critical comments about transit in the snow.
Now, last year, with the blizzard, I explained to you last night why they wound up with a full system shutdown. I don't want to explain it again. The facts have been laid out. He called you ignorant after claiming it did not snow. If you look at the "Yesterday's Weather" page on weather.com for my zip code, it says it snowed. Saying it didn't snow is almost like saying the sky is green and the sun is purple. While he may have been a bit extreme, you posted pure nonsense in a futile attempt to keep your argument going. Now, how about responding to the post in which there is clearly snow on my lawn and Chris Der's lawn?
And I hope you like my front lawn. Maybe you can shovel it for me so I can get out when we get 2 feet of snow and ride the Metro.
It's gotten just awful. Headways in the morning rush keep getting longer and longer, to the point where ten minutes is almost average. Evening rush isn't quite as bad, for some reason, but also has shown some deterioration.
It was on the opposite side of the Seaford-Oyster Bay Expressway bridge from the tower.
What code would the LIRR use for a man under train?
I was near the conductor and heard the call over the radio. The LIRR personnel referred to it as "A body on the tracks".
So what the hell is wrong with that? I'd say enjoying pictures of pretty women and admiring pretty women on TV was pretty normal. As a matter of fact I am totally in love with Vivian Brown of the Weather Channel.
Don't let the missus find out, or she'll put you out in the weather !!
Bill "Newkirk"
An at least a sharp eyed customer spotted the perp carrying a gun in his holster and in full view. First pigeons, next gang members killing one another, now this? What's next for the W before it gets cut back to Whitehall?
I live in New York on 8th avenue above the ACE line. I am on the 8th floor above street level. A couple of weeks ago my TV and two computer monitors in the apartment started showing signs of being in serious magnetic fields. The corners turn blue or green and the color of the whole screen changes. It lasts for a few minutes, then goes away completely for like 10 minutes before returning.
My building mgmt tells me that it is interference from the subway trains, but I am hesitant to believe him since I lived here for over 18 months before the problem suddenly appeared and I live 8 floors above street level. I don't really care about the computer screens (they have degauss buttons) but its got to be hurting my TV.
Has anyone else dealt with interference like this? Or does anyone know if a subway train can really produce enough interference to harm a TV 8 floors above ground? Or why it wouldn't start happening for 18 months?
thanks in advance
If it IS a DC field being indicued into the building steel, then moving the "TV" to the center of the room should pretty much make it go away ... I'd be curious as to whether moving the set would have any effect. If it DOES, then it's possible although I can't fathom what it might be. What street are you at? (don't need a building address)
I'm at 21st street and 8th avenue above the ACE line (4 tracks). if that helps.
Of course, since I have no idea how the utilities and subway feeders are configured in your area, it's only an educated guess.
If this is the case, however, everyone in your building on that same utility feeder should be having problems of one sort or another.
If you were to wave a magnet in front of a CRT monitor (and I don't suggest you do this) you would "degauss" it to get it back to normal -- remove the magnetic charge, returning the screen to normal.
Yeah, that'll do it. Course then you could do this:
Go ahead Richard ... SUE me ... I won't TOUCH anything poisoned with GNU license restrictions on earning a living unless you're Richard Stallman, lawyer ... you just enjoy your Bentley why dontcha? DAMNED sad that Windows has fewer security issues THESE days without the benefit of some expertise and experience. :(
Even BSD's got holes ... then there's SCO. :( :(
I love Linux because it's free... makes my software upgrades at work a lot easier (hey boss I installed the latest PHP release; nope didn't cost you a dime!) while I get to develop proprietary code that brings in actual revenue. Hint, hint. ;)
Given the latest root exploits (especially the one in 2.4.22, a VERY popular and recent kernel) I'm beginning to wonder if there's an upcoming "I TOLD YOU SO" coming from the Windows With-Popularity-Comes-Hacking crowd.
As for money in Linux, there’s a lot of it to be made: just not by selling object-only code. Most people (including me) don’t want/have the time to do things the hard way, starting from scratch. I am perfectly willing to pay Red Hat et al, for a packaged system with instructions that I can use to get my applications working as quickly as possible.
Oh, and the fact that Linux takes far more abuse than any Win** system does help!
The way a degauss coil works is to apply a strong alternating
magnetic field that fades to 0 amplitude. The original magnetiziation
(there is no such thing as "magnetic charge"), be it north or
south, is overwhelmed by the large oscillating field. It forces
the material strongly north, strongly south, strongly north again,
etc. and then gradually subsides to slightly north, slight south,
leaving a residual magnetization near 0.
There is NO WAY IN HELL that subway trains are causing this problem.
Contrary to urban legend, they do not produce strong B fields
(magnetic fields) other than what is localized inside the
traction motors and wiring under the car floor. You could have
these screens _inside_ the car and it would not create these sort
of gauss effects, nevermind up on the street 8 flights up.
As selkirk suggested, try moving the screens away from exterior
walls, columns or other places where building steel might be.
Also check to see if you are near the electrical risers or an
elevator shaft.
If that doesn't solve the problem, ask your neighbors if they
have similar difficulties. Maybe one of your neighbors is
operating some exotic electrical equipment. Are there any
nearby industrial tenants?
I also have asked other on my floor about their TVs and they say everything is fine.
Darned R-44's !
Bill "Newkirk"
But I think the only part of the closings list that matters is the Federal Government. Because such a big chunk of Metro's ridership consists of federal employees, if the Federal Government is open, Metro will bust their humps to run trains. And if not, well . . . .
Neil (aka wife with wheelchair)
Not that there's anything wrong with ridiculous postings (from my perspective).
CG
Thanks,
Julian
"Them" as in R110b's, or "them" as in the sounds?
If you still have the sounds, could you send me a doorchime?
Thanks,
Julian
The cars.
I'm very interested in the doorchime, since it wasn't the simple "Ding dong." I can assume the automated announcements sound like the R142/143 announcements.
Julian
Retractable Shoes?
Dedicated Tracks?
Or Abandon the idea?
Another reason: Once Sunnyside is complete, people(and this is very few people) that live in MN territory and work on LI(or the opposite), will be able to make quicker, faster connections, making rail more attractive.
What about NJ Transit, they can go screw…? What’s the use of Metro-North trains going a few blocks southward to NYP anyhow? They have GCT all to themselves. Moving trains from the New Haven line into NYP will mean less room at NYP and more room and waste at GCT.
That said, once LIRR starts runnin to GCT, that opens space at NYP for MN. Hopefully MN will start NYP service AND increase GCT service.
Regards,
Jimmy
The hard part is finding the space.
The hard part is finding the space.
Regards,
Jimmy
Jimmy
Here is the image he speaks of:
http://www.transitgallery.com/showpic.php?aid=9&uuid=14&pid=11
Don't say this is crazy until you think about it -- what about taking Amtrak into Grand Central? Clear out that stupid waiting room under Madison Square Garden, and only have commuter service into Penn (but all three commuter services). Is there a bridge route further north across the Hudson through Spuyten Duyvil for Amtrak?
I suppose the only other way that could be done would be to run trains bound for points south through the Hudson and East River tubes, then loop in Sunnyside yard and enter the ESA to GCT's new LIRR platform. I'm sure the MTA would LOOOOVE that one, Amtrak using their newest project exclusively (since if Amtrak's gonna abandon NYP for GCT, LIRR sure as heck isn't going to have room to squeeze through the 63rd st tunnel). I'm also sure Boston and New Haven bound passenger from the south will love having to do the Sunnyside loop them come out and head down 63rd st to GCT, some 15-30minutes out of their way, each way. If they thought the NYC station dwell times were long now, just wait till it could be a 1h 10min or more time from visits to Sunnyside Yd! AND, what's more, they're STILL running right through NYP!!!
I'm afraid that idea was just a few feet short of the pool. The idea of running the LSL or something into GCT would be very cool, but unfortunately the logistics that the 3rd rails and such present would squash it.
Anyway, what we need IMHO is another Hudson River tunnel, the Penny's setup for getting traffic past NYC was genius, and we're unlikely to find any way to improve upon it. Their only failing was in their underestimation of how much traffic NJ would provide, which has certainly climbed since the tunnels were dug just after the turn of the last century. Really the only improvement I could see being made to the Commuter rail in NYC would either be a new Lower Manhattan terminal for NJT and LIRR in the mold of Brother Elia's proposal here, or something like the ARC has proposed, with a second level to NYP for NJT equipment using the new tunnel, which sounds rather likely to happen. GCT has capacity to spare, and LIRR's burden on NYP will soon be lessened by ESA, so I have a hard time believing that either operation actually needs any more work with their terminals.
You're right ... no Amtrak rider wants to watch every body of water in the New York metro area pass over or under him before he rolls into GCT. The best one can do is split Amtrak into east and west terminals, a la London -- can you say "administrative nightmare?"
And I think trying to put another terminal in Lower Manhattan has the same effect, so Christopher's original question is the valid one. I just wish there were a way to use GCT more intensely. Why did they go UNDER the yard with the new LIRR platforms, instead of using it as is (say, half platforms and half waiting area)?
CG
I think there might be an issue with damage to the third rail shoes when they get into LIRR territory, though.
CG
Regards,
Jimmy
CG
I think you might find post #429305 interesting, especially the part where Mr.Railnut says, "Amtrak units did not and do not have shoes working on both over and under running third rail. the shoe mech's were changed on FL-9's when move to Penn was made from GCT."
I vote for abandoning the idea. It will create more waste by having virtually abandoned trackage in Grand Central Terminal. The problems of interference between LIRR third-rail and Metro-North contact shoes is also considerable.
Not to mention, that should slots in NYP become available due to LIRR using GCT when ESA opens, NJ Transit should be permitted to avail of those slots – this will create greater flexibility at Secaucus Transfer as well as the possibility of opening up more railroad lines from NJ to NYP.
As for you "virtually abandoned trackage" at GCT, that trackage would be filled by increased servcie from the Harlem or Hudson lines, or perhaps increased "in-city" service as has been proposed on Subtalk and by various politicos.
As I understand it, NJT's ability to use more "slots" at Penn is illusory unless and until there are additional tracks built under the Hudson
No. That is based on current LIRR traffic into Penn. Remove LIRR traffic and more NJT space becomes available.
As for you "virtually abandoned trackage" at GCT, that trackage would be filled by increased servcie from the Harlem or Hudson lines, or perhaps increased "in-city" service as has been proposed on Subtalk and by various politicos
You believe that will ever materialize? GCT is underutilized as is. You can increase service now at that terminal. NYP is strained to the hilt.
No. That is based on current LIRR traffic into Penn. Remove LIRR traffic and more NJT space becomes available."
False. It is based on tunnel capacity. However, if LIRR service is reduced at Penn (a problematic assumption) then more NJT trains can theoretically use the East River tubes to continue to Sunnyside yard and turn there, opening up slots at Penn and allowing more trains to follow them.
But projected increases in commuter traffic may mean that LIRR will introduce new service at GCT AND maintain current levels of Penn service. So the best assumption right now is that East Side access helps the LIRR but makes no difference to Amtrak or NJT.
Run them on peak trains to New London with stops at Co-op City, New Rochelle, Stamford, New Haven and points east to New London, or, if possible later, to Providence. Also run a midday between New London and New Haven on the SLE (who won in that fight over the bridge openings?). Give Amtrak their money for track and power, and open up a whole new low cost carrier to compete against buses for those who cannot afford Amtrak.
The ALP46 can negotiate all the power-source changes that occur on the NEC in that area, and in NJT service has proven itself to be a very reliable locomotive after some very minor teething issues. Isn't SHELL north to NewHaven 12kv@60hz? I think south of SHELL to NYP is 11.5kv@25 like most of the NEC, and then of course west of New Haven it's 25kv@60Hz constant tension cat. NJT's ALP46s negotiate all three power supplies without problems every day, since the NEC and it's NY approaches are 11.5kv@25hz, the NJCL south of Avenel is 12kv@60hz and the entire hoboken division is 25kv@60hz. Of course this would also free up the GP40PH-2s that currently roam the SLE for other duties, either taking over the Hartford Shuttles from Amtrak and making that a ConnDot operation, or some new operation in Connecticut, perhaps commuter rail for Hartford itself.
Of course the one drawback of the ALP46s would be that they would be restricted to track with catenary over it, thereby eliminating GCT and making them basically bound to New Haven or NYP as terminals (say Midday shuttles to NHV connecting to New Haven trains to GCT). The ultimate solution to this would be what I've been bothering the Subchatter's with, the ALP48, an Americanized version of the new German electric class 189 quadrivoltage freight locomotives (European freight trains are probably about as heavy as our commuter trains, and the ALP46 is a Class 185 [also freight], not a 101 as so many people think). The 189 can negotiate 1.5kv and 3kv DC power, as well as take 15kv@50hz and 25kv@50hz AC power, all taken through one of 2 pairs of pantographs. As I envisage it, the American version would have all the AC capability of the ALP46, with an additional 600-750vdc 3rd rail pick up. Both LIRR and MN could order the ALP48, and it could easily be equipped with both shoes, just as the P32DM-AC has been for Amtrak and MN. With an ALP48 in MN service, and assuming it was equipped with retractible shoes or something preventing them from interfering with the LIRR 3rd rail, then both terminals would be open to MN New Haven and SLE trains.
Just my two cents.
And more on the LIRR ALP48 in a future post.
For example, a train to connect from midtown to Jamaica Station via the E Line without stops in Queens.
Did Not know about Plans to run on E from Jamaica Center To 34th Street-Penn
OK, so it's an R44, not an R46.
R46 original rollsigns look much like the ones they have today whereas the R44's original rollsigns looked like a smaller version of the R40 rollsign.
What did I tell you? 87 miles per hour!!!!!!!
My question is: If I get on the AT at Jamaica, does it go to Terminal 8 as a one seat ride, or do I have to change trains somewhere along the line?
Thanx in advance
http://www.tmk.com/transient/airtrain/693C0055-l.JPG
CG
Something to think about if the bridge starts to crack again.
Ahh, I guess not. As I had orignally imagined it, the tracks would be connected to Grand Street, keeping that station open, albeit with 8 car trains.
wayne
That being said, the increased flexibility would have been nice. However, the MTA, as usual, probably decided that the additional cost outweighed the benefit of flexibility.
If they were to split the M into MM and TT again with each terminating at Chambers St from opposite directions, it would make sense to loop the M trains back to Brooklyn clockwise via the MB and not clog up the switches north of the station.
--Mark
1) In the 1920s, the Brooklyn Bridge was attached to the loop and the Fulton, Lexington and Myrtle Els rebuilt to Dual Contracts standards. Two loop operation followed. The City was bought off the idea of a Fulton St Subway by the BMT letting the IND operate the Canarsie Line, which was joined in 1935 into the 8th Av Express which to that point had got no further than 34th St.
2) In 1954, the Brooklyn IND recaptured the Culver Line and the 5th Av El was closed.
3) In 1967, the Centre St connector and 6th Av Express were opened. The BMT Broadway (Brooklyn) service was cut back to the Eastern part of Canal St station. The Nassau Loop continued to exist and the Broadway Express still used the North Side of the Manhattan Bridge. 6th Av Expresses turned down Centre St then went across the Brooklyn Bridge to serve the Myrtle Av, Lexington Av, and Fulton St Lines.
4) In 1975, the 2nd Av Subway opened. The Broadway Express was diverted onto the South Side of the Manhattan Bridge. Nassau Loop operation stopped, with rush hour only service terminating at Chambers St. Fulton St and Broad St became part time stations. The 2nd Av express ran over the North Side of the Manhattan Bridge and the local took over the Williamsburg Bridge. Bowery station was closed. At 63rd St, a connector allowed both local and express trains to diverge to the Queens IND whilst trains from the Broadway Express could join either track. The local line curved under 125th St to terminate at a controversial elevated terminal at Broadway. The express tracks emerged shortly after entering the Bronx and took over the 3rd Av El and the NYW&B.
What a different picture that would have been...
--Mark
Thanks to everyone for their comments. But I want to make one last observation that may, or may not amount to anything. As I take a Broadway Express towards Brooklyn (Q or W) from Canal and look out the south side windows over my shoulder, I can see what appears to be an abandoned tunnel just before we reach the bridge. I thought that this was the Loop connection to the brige. Since people have mentioned floating junctions and so on, I'm now doubting my original assumption. Any thoughts?
One Last Thing (Funds Are Unlimted, Project of all of us dreamers)
Regards,
Jimmy :)
TELL me that role ain't MINE. Heh.
Subways today are SO much more "genteel" than MY day ... "we GOT you here ... don't WHINE" was the drill order of the day. :)
thanx for pointin' that out
"Listen, you little prick. Twenty bucks wouldn't buy you a good night kiss."
Bob: Moo. I'd like to go to Steamboat.
Larry: We can't.
Bob: Why?
Larry: We're cows.
Bob: Moo.
Regards,
Mr Gray
You could have just E-mailed the webmaster.
That SubTalker that I am talking about took glee in "tarnishing the R142/R142A's images" with a post somewhat like this:
the r142s they r a breakin down already
It ended with: "soon they will be headed to the """scrap"""!
LOL........."
It was actually two SubTalkers who did this, and I killfiled both of them (I killfiled the other guy when Dave widened the killfile).
Here's how it goes with 4traintowoodlawn. You say you hate the R142s and R142As, I won't put you on my killfile. If you tarnish the image of the new millenium cars (ESPECIALLY the R142As, which are my favorite subway cars), it's straight to my killfile for you.
I agree some of his posts may be off the wall, but I wouldn't go as far as to killfiling him.
If I killfiled people using 4traintowoodlawn's criteria, I'd probably have 34 people in my killfile and counting... @_@
I dunno if he really is 11 but it sure takes the most minute of things to set him off on his killfiling spree.
THere, I "tarnished" the image of the R142A. Now what are ya gonna do about it?! =p
Disclaimer: all of this is in good fun.
Chuck Greene
I am still planning to visit LA by this summer or early fall to see Fred and meet George, Sallam and the other left coast Subtalkers for a day or two of railfanning FOR ALL YOU ANTI-SALLAM WACKOS. AND THIS WILL NOT CHANGE WHATSOEVER. :-)
soon they will be headed to the scrap!
LOL.........
It's called an opinion. Opinions are like armpits. Everyone's got them and sometimes they stink. R-142s are inanemate objects - not alive - no feelings! Call them great, they don't even smile. Call them garbage, they run as well as if they were loved. They don't care. If you like them, that's great. There are alot of things to like about them. If other people don't, then it's their problem because the cars of their youth - and their pleasure is, in most cases, rusting at the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean.
If that particular person doesn't share your opinion, that does not make him a sadist.
It says: "...posted by..." and gives the time and date of that message.
At the killfile window simply paste the name. It don't matter how long it is. That window isn't a wysiwyg box; it's just a container for text. Squeeze it in.
One of our regulars has ignored me now for some 4 1/2 years after a bad choice of words on my part. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he's killfiled me. That's his perogative.
You're right. You have to let it go at some point. My aunt disowned us a year before she died after a silly incident involving - you guessed it - a bad choice of words. Unfortunately she never had a chance to bury the hatchet - she took that grudge to her grave.
Well you could always IGNORE the person. That's what I do when I don't like somebody, its better than flaming & wasting bandwith.
Some of y'all need to calm down here, getting this angry online makes no sense. I see it is taken WAY too seriously.
If you're going to killfile someone, just do it quietly and move on to another topic. No sense getting all worked up over it all.
Expected Completion: 2006 and yes money has been fueled into it and it is a go.
Art Institute of Chicago- Merrell: Modern Trains and Splended Stations
Vote one (mine): R142/R142A series.
The R142/A's are always toasty.
i like the R142
R142/R142A: 2
R62/R62A: 1
:)
:-) Andrew
But my official vote goes for the R142.
til next time
IEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!
R62/R62A: 4
R142/R142A: 11
R62/R62A: 5
R142/R142A: 13
Good night!
Officially now:
Goodnight! :)
Current results:
R62/R62A: 6
R142/R142A: 13
Julian
REDBIRD TECHNOLOGY ALL THE WAY!!!!
Oh, and Don't mess with Da Hui, or Da hui will mess with you
Jeff Alterman
Sad that NY State and the US Consititutional prohibits burning these F****RS to death. They destroyed an entire family and opened new wounds on how bad NYC was.
Neither the New York nor United States Constitutions prohibits capital punishment. If you're talking about the United States Constitution's ex-post facto provision preventing anyone from being tried under the terms of a law passed after the commission of an act banned by said law, then I am happy to be in a country that prohibits burning these F****RS to death.
David
David
Is that shorter than the long block between 7th and 8th? Without question. Don't forget as well that it's another two short blocks or so from the end of the passageway to the NB IND platform.
Would it be a useful connection? Absolutely, as would a connection between the IRT and BMT at 50th-49th (even if only between the SB BMT and NB IRT, whose platforms are practically adjacent), which would reduce crowding at Times Square, particularly the north end of the NB IRT platform. Would it be worth the cost? Probably not.
Once a new pair of exits is being added anyway, linking them to another station a block and change away becomes a lot less of a stretch.
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It is nice to see the project to far under way. The best thing is I haven't noticed any appriciable runining of the tunnels in terms of their atmosphere or historic signifigance.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df01262004.shtml#NYP
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So when does Amtrak actually get the money and is this different than the last chunk of funding it begged for?
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df01262004.shtml#Senate
Time to get to work and write or phone your legislators and tell them to support this funding.
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You know, I could have sworn they had specialized stretchers for this kind of thing. I wonder if Amtrak's suposed plan to put Early Defibrilation Devices on their trains came in handy here. I also wonder who paid for the window and how the train continued on its journey.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df01262004.shtml#Suwannee
The NYPD and FDNY have folding metal chairs that can be used to transport patients up or down stairs or escalators. I have personally assisted in one such rescue. However, the Superliner's spiral staircase is very narrow, and even in a sitting position, it's possible the paramedics thought they might drop the patient while navigating through the staircase.
Also, if there was any suspicion of trauma, like a hard fall after the heart attack (we don't know all the details), the patient would have been placed on a backboard to protect the spine, and there's no way you're going to get a backboarded parient safely down that staircase.
Da Hui
Absolutely correct. 3,942 train operators voted and the R-68s got just 1,959 votes. That's 49.7% but fair is fair so the Queens Blvd. lines gave up 8 cars. Uh-huh
woohoo!
During the 1986-1988 closure, the Grand St shuttle used R27's based out of ENY.
Julian
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Hey, as long as it is only "hi-speed" rail and not all rail I'm cool.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df01262004.shtml#Rail
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For those of us long time riders, the increased fares and crowds are making the rail riding experiance slightly less enjoyable.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df01262004.shtml#Revenue
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Here's a factoid, did you know that Quiet Car is a registered service mark of Amtrak? Frankly I don't know how they ever got that mark registered. There is absolutely no secondary meaning associated with it.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df01262004.shtml#Acela
:0)
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Here's a question. What the heck the the differance b/t a Dinette, a Cafe, a Club and a Lounge???? They all seem the same to me. Same food, same counter, etc.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df01262004.shtml#Amfleet
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Another kudos to Amtrak. I travel this stretch of track yet a didn't notice any service disruptions at all during the renovation period. I didn't even notice the renovations.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df01262004.shtml#Gunpow
Ultimately, I want to see two more tracks in that area: so Amtrak and SEPTA don't have to mix.
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On again, off again, on again?
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df01262004.shtml#Trains
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Se ya later UP. Always suck when another freight railroad is standing in the way of progress.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df01262004.shtml#Commuter
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Slow or not at least the second track is being laid.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df01262004.shtml#Slow
And once again, I urge all the users of Tri-rail to thank the voters of Orange County for their new rail equipment they will be getting too.
Oh well, I need to take a trip to Miami anyway.
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Does this mean that the VRE will have to send back those Sounder trainsets soon?
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df01262004.shtml#Sounder
They blew through town here a couple of months ago, had their prayer meeting and wafflehouse breakfast (ain't no waffle houses within 500 miles of here and yet they managed) and then did a CHITTY job at laying down 2x4's around the crossings, then poured asphalt on top of it until the iron was covered on both sides of the plywood.
And yeah, they ARE casting off deadwood and bringing in PECKERwood ... I hear all the time about the geniuses from JAX coming up to town and telling BLE brothers to "turn off that diesel, you're wasting gas" ... to which the BLE brothers and sisters reply, "it's 15 below out there, are you SURE? OK, genius ..." And then they wonder why they have to pull hot power out of Virginia to make the run. (shakes head and mutters, knowing that this brain trust is guiding us in Iraq as WELL as the economy" ... GO, BUBBA! :-\
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This sounds like a good way to not only reduce accidents, but also apease locals with less horn blowing, lower maintainence and increase operating speeds.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df01262004.shtml#BNSF
Grade crossings of all types are preceded on the track with a W sign, indicating a whistle needed. Methinks you're getting carried away with yourself here...
All they have to do is spot some railfans -- and ESPECIALLY a female, such as when my wife goes with me -- and they go nuts showing off with their horns out in the middle of nowhere, miles from the nearest crossing, even if we're 150' from the tracks. My wife keeps saying she's gonna flash one of those engineers one of these days!!!
Oh well, that's different. Etiquette for engineers is that if a person waves at the locomotive, you return a whistle blast. Two blasts if the person is an attractive member of the opposite sex.
Don't know.
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It looks like they are finally beginning to remedy the problem of having the dispatchers and users totally unconnected.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df01262004.shtml#UK
LOL!
:-D
What a good idea. Whatever next? Painting everything a nice understated blue with a double arrow logo on the side, yellow front ends, and "grey" at window level on passenger coaches?
Double arrow is known as "barbed wire" and the lion holding a wheel became known as "ferret and dartboard". Not so sure about the lion standing on the wheel, "starving lion"?
Double arrow is one of the few logos that works, is instantly recognisable, relevant to what it symbolises, and is not a rip off of the London Transport roundel. Genius.
Although it did prompt "don't know if they're going this way or the other" comments, it is a classic. It also has recognition factor: you see this by a footpath running down beside a bridge and everyone knows instantly there's a station (or at least a platform) somewhere down there.
I also liked the old-style station nameplates (name within an oval, with half-ovals top and bottom).
These things...
www.totemexchange.co.uk
In the UK, the British Rail double arrow (was it ever a registered trademark) became the universal symbol for anything railway related and would appear by itself on a sign with a directional arrow.
The usage survives the British Rail breakup.
The first three reflected the colours of the corresponding predecessor companies. The LNER got chopped up three ways (the last three) with the LMS's Scottish lines being put into the Scottish Region too.
Which led to a particularly stupid event where all the Brown Western Region signs from Leamington Spa and Stratford to Shrewsbury and Droitwich had to be taken down and replaced with Maroon London Midland ones because someone thought "hey, both of these lines go through Birmingham; let's put them in the same region" even though that made absolutely no operational sense whatsoever.
I always wanted one from Rowlands Castle station to put on my house....
Fytton Rowland
Annoyingly for you, that's a rare one. A quick search showed that there was one up for auction (not sold) in 2002.
Are these regional controllers going to add more service? If this is the case, who is going to pay for added service? I get the impression all additional costs imposed by these regional controllers will fall onto those private rail companies without regard for their ability to make a profit.
click the photo for more
Too dam cold to post to SubTalk?
Our M4 cars down here in Philly have it all, New Tech electronics, good heat, good AC, a sit-down RFW, and a fairly good service speed.
The railfan window will NEVER die ... merely requires civil service appointment to the title and your OWN genuwine TA "vested interest" just like *I* had to in order to get the "ultimate view." There's STILL a railfan window ... you just gotta do 2 or more trips at it and no getting off to catch the Canarsie line anymore, and OH yeah, "Community whiz" ... EVERYBODY's going downtown today. :)
The reason that this place is *D*E*A*D* could be that the "idiot posters" discovered they are a pain in the *ss and went to the Strappies board.
A parallel could be drawn between this proposed station and the World's Fair/Flushing Meadow station of the LIRR. The trains only stop there on game days and when the US Open Tennis matches are staged. I wonder how much extra traffic the LIRR picks up vs. station maintenance and extra wear and tear on the cars, due to additional opening/closing doors, brakes wearing out, extra electric, etc.
I'd bet most baseball fans ride the #7 since the price is cheaper. Also more frequent service on game days since the LIRR (I don't believe) run extra trains.
The LIRR station at Shea is heavily utilized on game days.
At present it is only in effect on the weekends. It will be evaluated it 6 months.
Peace,
ANDEE
Isaac
isaacbrumer@hotmail.com
Buy a city ticket at Penn. When they collect it on board the train: "Where are you going sir?" "Flushing Main Street".
OOPS! I "accidentally" got off at the station before Flushing-Main.
I suppose this won't work in reverse though!
I have more experience seeing crowds coming off the trains before weekday games than seeing them waiting after weekend games. Based on casual observation, the ridership is enough to justify the service.
I doubt very much that there is enough ridership to warrant building a new station if none already existed.
Based on what I've seen at the station over the years, I'd guess that the LIRR carries no more than a few hundred people per game on average in each direction. With only 81 home games and 14 days of the US Open the station lies empty nearly 70% of the year. Even on Met game days, total ridership is far below most other LIRR stations. Factor in also that those coming in from other than the PW branch pay no additional fare beyond what they'd have to pay to go to Woodside.
CG
Also, like I said before, not everyone goes to games from the city. Many come from the burbs. IMO, they should be runnin specials from the other lines, or even just from Jamaica, to the stadium. Park em on one of the other who knows how many tracks available.
Another thing, what is this mentality that everyone going to an event is comming from areas served by the subways? It aint true. Plenty of people come from the burbs to the game.
Therefore I think most of the station usage would be from the 'burbs.
The the deal collapsed as George tried to move to the West Side. The future location of the Stadium has been in limbo since then, though the West Side option is dead. I am confident if and when Steinbrenner agrees to either renovate the Stadium or build a new one next door, a new MNRR station will be part of it.
They're better dealt with on Metro-North than on the Major Deegan!
Of course this is the story as it has been told to me, and as I understand it, if anyone else has heard a different interpretation, then by all means correct me.
The M-1, M-2, M-3, and M-4 were sequential. So we skipped 5 and 6, big deal.
THIS is why.
Here:
M-1, Budd, 1965-73 (LIRR/MNR)
M-2, Budd/GE, 1971-73 (MNR Cosmopolitan)
M-3, Budd/GE, 1985-86 (LIRR/MNR)
M-4, Tokyu Car/Kinki Sharyo, 1987-88 (MNR Cosmopolitan)
M-6, MK, 1992-93 (MNR Cosmopolitan)
M-7, Bombardier, 2002- (LIRR/MNR)
So is the M3 and was the M6, but that didn't stop the railroads.
Actually, the railcar M3 predates the automobile M3 by a year or two.
Mark
The BMW M1 (which I forgot before, since in some respects it's neither a BMW nor an M-car) also came after the original Metropolitan. It dates to sometime in the late 1970s.
BMW gets to play firsties on the M6 and of course the M5, because there never was a railcar M5. Even if there was, BMW would have come first: their M5 hit the streets at about the same time the Budd M3 was hitting the rails.
Mark
M3:
I don't know, but New Haven Line riders aren't concerned about cars without pantographs (aka the entire odd numbered fleet: M1, M3, M7). -Nick
M1 M2 M3 M4 M6 RUN ON THIS SYSTEM I BASICALLY THINK THAT METRO NORTH AND NEW HAVEN RR NEED TO COMPETE WITH THE ACELA EXPRESS AND HHP8 ON THE NEW HAVEN BRANCH
I MEAN U CANT HAVE BETTER LOOKING EQUIPMENT ON A ROUT U DONT EVEN OWN
(AMTRAK)
HAVING JUNK LIKE THE M2 AND M4 IS NO CHALLENGE TO THE ACELA
IF CDOT UPGRADED TO MORE P32'S USING PUSH PULL BOMBARDIERS OUT OF GCT AND USIN THE BOMBARDIER M8 IN THE FUTURE
THE M8 CAN BE USED NOW
??????????????????????
"M1 M2 M3 M4 M6 RUN ON THIS SYSTEM I BASICALLY THINK THAT METRO NORTH AND NEW HAVEN RR NEED TO COMPETE WITH THE ACELA EXPRESS AND HHP8 ON THE NEW HAVEN BRANCH"
You're not making any sense. Metro North / CDOT run a commuter rail system. It came out of the ashs of Conrail, Penn Central and the New Haven Railroad. Amtrak is a long distance carrier for destinations beyond New Haven. Amtrak and Metro North/CDOT don't compete with each other. The New Haven Railroad hasn't existed since 1968.
"I MEAN U CANT HAVE BETTER LOOKING EQUIPMENT ON A ROUT U DONT EVEN OWN (AMTRAK)"
What does looks have to do with it ? As long as it gets you from point A and point B.
"HAVING JUNK LIKE THE M2 AND M4 IS NO CHALLENGE TO THE ACELA"
You're knocking on Bellevue's door ! Cold weather affected your caps lock ?
"IF CDOT UPGRADED TO MORE P32'S USING PUSH PULL BOMBARDIERS OUT OF GCT AND USIN THE BOMBARDIER M8 IN THE FUTURE"
You lost me on that sentence. The MTA knows well what and when to buy equipment and when to rebuild or retire old equipment. Money doesn't grow on trees, there's a five year plan on the MTA website. Read it after you fix your caps lock problem.
"THE M8 CAN BE USED NOW"
See above reply.
Bill "Newkirk"
The whole history of Connecticut and MetroNorth is one of "head in the sand". After the Penn Central bankruptcy, Conrail took over (on an interim basis) the commuter lines, including the New Haven. New York acted to get Metro North organized under MTA. Connecticut did not act until very close to the deadline, and then had no time to negotiate with New York over the terms of their partnership. The result was predictable.
The M2 was originally ordered to replace the pre WWII MU cars and the conventional coaches. The Conn DOT assumed that it could rehab the old Budd cars (affectionately known as the "flexible fliers"). After the M2 order, they realized that the Budd's were history. They kept some coaches in service until the M4 arrived. The M6 were actually additional equipment (the only time that has happened).
The M2 has all of the design defects of the M1, plus it is has the dual power system.
I was told by a Connecticut legislator that finally they are going to appropriate funds for new cars -- but only to arrive in 2009.
While I understand the problems you mentioned, overall I'm pleased with Metro-North service. I can easily get to NYC from Westport in 65 minutes, or even less on a super express. It's very rare that I don't get a seat, and overall Metro-North makes the train ride comfortable and convenient. As the prices were raised, problems at Cos Cob were corrected and there are virtually no short trains during rush hour when weather problems don't exist (very different from the early to mid 1980s!). -Nick
1. No maintenance during the '89 - '92 budget crisis.
2. Very poor design (especially the M2).
3. Having a dual power system means there are twice as many things to go wrong.
4. Politics -- Connecticut pays most of the NH cost, but has no say in operations. Therefore, appropriations go to the bottom of the priority list.
5. The majority of the fleet is the same age ... if all your equipment is 30 years old, you have to change it all at the same time.
Because the M8 is so delayed, using push-pull in the interim is probably the way to go.
This is not necesarily true. I don't know the official breakdown, but there are many cars from the 70s& 80s, and a few M6s from the 90s. -Nick
#3 West End Jeff
I'm not up on my Cosmopolitan technology. Fill me in: does the M-2 share the M-1 intake design, and was it fixed as it was on the M-3 by the time the M-4 came around?
I like to think of M-2s as M-1s with hats, but I'm totally lost when it comes to the M-4/6 cars. Triplets? Sheesh!
Mark
I beleive the M4s came out as late as 1987, while the M6 arrived in 1993 and 1994. Honestly, you have to really pay attention to see the differences between the M2, M4 & M6; especially with the overhauls that have taken place. You'll notice slight variations in the window designs, and I've noticed the following on the M6: Bathrooms are handicap accessible, luggage racks are plastic (vs. metal), and the door chime has a "beep" sound rather than a bell. -Nick
Attention New Brunswick Customers
Northeast Corridor Schedule Adjustments and Improvements
We would like to provide advance notice of a rail sched. change that will occur on Feb. 15 to improve service and reliability for NE Corridor customers traveling from New Brunswick. We'll use this sched. change to refine departure times and service patterns on a number of trains in order to improve reliability and provide the maximum level of service possible during the peak periods.
Important changes that will occur on February 15 include:
Train 3928, the 7:49 departure from Trenton will now depart Trenton at 7:50 am, stop at New Brunswick at 8:18 am, and make subsequent station stops approximately two to four minutes later.
Train 3710, currently the 8:14 am departure from Jersey Ave., will now depart at 8:16 am and will provide express service from Metropark to Newark Liberty Int'l Airport enroute to Newark and New York.
Service to NY from Rahway, and local service between Trenton and Newark, will be provided by new Train 3830 that will depart Trenton at 8:07 am and arrive in Penn Station New York at 9:37 am.
While we would like to make these changes immediately, they are significant, and require that changes be made to other trains and on other lines. For this reason, they must be coordinated within a schedule change.
If you have any questions, please call Customer Service at the number listed below (which turns out to be 1-800-772-3606 in NJ and 1-973-491-9400 outside of NJ).
Thank you.
Issued: January 14, 2004
Picked up: January 26, 2004
any comments, folks?
I got hired up in the early spring of 1970 ... 25 years to retirement ... 1945! AHA! Went up front as a motorman after less that 3 months in a conductor title, only three WEEKS of it "on the road." Schoolcar was the vast MAJORITY of my "time served for good behavior" in BOTH titles. But I never quite understood WHY I was shot through schoolcar like chit through da geese ... until NOW ... I'd heard that there was a "wave of retirements" which was why they advertised on placards on subway cars, "Conductors can earn $256 a week, TAKE ONE" with tearoff sheets to fill out to get a job. I was *amazed* at how qualified the MTA thought I was when I had NO idea of what I was doing. :)
Well, 25 years from *THAT* peak are about to happen ... and I'd suppose that with so many people piping off the ship over that time, the "peak" won't be as substantial, but there were *SO* many of us probies back in 1970-71 that there's GOTTA be a "big vacuum" coming real soon. For those who took the test, BEST of luck ... your chances of "moving up" are good ... I *finally* get it! This coming year is when MY "alma mater" hangs up their handles ...
GLAD I didn't stay the course, a thousand points of light, two ships passing in the night ... BIE! :)
In 1970-1971 they were all Tier 1 meaning they had 20 year retirement not 25. In T/O there are only 30ish left and a few of them do not even have the age! One of the guys in the singlew digits has a 13 yo child and will be here another 10 years. Another one plans on dying in the job.
The next big wave of retirements will be in 2008 then again in 2013.
In the meanwhile they are cutting jobs, too.
Mind ya, I don't MIND eating crow - after 8 weeks of phucking Vennison and Pheasant, crow tastes GOOD ... and is DIFFERENT! Heh. But yeah, when *I* came in, did "bumpercar" and posted, I couldn't BELIEVE my good fortune in "coming up the ranks so fast, your NECK hurts" and only earlier tonight did I *get* it ... just sat here like ANY good subtalker with a number and a dream, plugged in 25 and got me a hardon over "Woohoo! Structure walk and signal test LOOTO!" ... whoops. :(
Looks like a LOT of us who knew the OLD cast-iron handles can tell ya - there was a HOLE on the bottom of the handle near the round part that you dropped down. At the end (we weren't PUTHIES - none of that red plastic bullchirt) of the handle, there was a hole drilled through the cast iron that MET that hole on the bottom ... can you say "BONG" (without the BING)??? Yep, half the guys with handles were lighting up whacky terbacky and running QB's, B's, N's, you name it ... back in the ante room getting as high as a Georgia Pie ... and their HANDLE got passed back and forth, BLUNT, light that handle, smoke that handle, PASS that handle ... then there was me, straight as a yellow paddle. Yeah, I can understand the lack of 25 yearers. :)
Schoolcar - 1 month for C/R in either Division; 3 months A Division T/O; 5 months B Division T/O. Most of that is usually 8am to 4pm, except when posting (working a job with the regular job holder), which can be any tour, any time, any place.
Is it because they change the schedule alot?
Aside from that, if you want to work a second job, you are supposed to inform Transit, in writing, of when, where and what this second job entails, and they have to approve your dual employment. I have yet to meet anyone in RTO who has gotten such an approval.
http://www.nynewsday.com/news/local/transportation/nyc-airtrain0125.story
How's the job hunt going?
You don't know much about buildimng trains and about Bombardier, do you?
New York is a tough environment for new trains in general. Bmbardier has had its share of problems with new trains, but after they work out the bugs, their trains are as good as anybody's, Kawasaki, Alstom, Siemens, whatever.
--Mark
DBOM!
Well that's a really dumb idea. That way both the PA and the public get screwed. Actually, seeing as the PA is a public agency, the public are getting screwed twice.
Oh and don't expect Bombardier to do anything sensible like put the fare down to encourage ridership. If they aren't making enough money out of it, they'll go crying to the PA for a ridiculous subsidy - and having seen how these franchises seem to go, they'll get it. And guess who foots the bill in the end...
You have zero to support that view - but you're entitled to it.
If you enjoy ranting about how government agencies are all incompetent, by all means. But you're implying you have nothing constructive to offer when you do that. AirTrain's barely been in business for a month - and how many times have you acrtually tried to use it? I don't think the PA's perfect but nobody there makes snap decisions like the one in your post, and I'm grateful for that.
Don't like being criticized? Tough. This is a public forum. Post something constructive and you'll get a different response.
You have zero to support that view - but you're entitled to it.
I have your posts as documentation. I have watched you get on everyone's nerves. There is little wonder that Subtalkers who have been here a lot longer than me now won't take you seriously.
If you enjoy ranting about how government agencies are all incompetent, by all means.
I did not say that any government agency was incompetent. I merely observed that the PA has made a mistake in allowing a private company to operate the service for it. You note that I have a UK e-mail address. Do you not recognise that the general pattern in Britain since the private companies were let in has been increases in fares and subsidies with reductions in quality (and often quantity) of service? Do you not also notice that that problem is inherent in rail franchises as each layer of privatisation adds another layer of profit being squeezed out? Actually, I commend the PA for one thing: at least they've only employed one private company for this system.
I don't think the PA's perfect but nobody there makes snap decisions like the one in your post, and I'm grateful for that.
It is not a snap decision. It is based on quite simple observations which anyone can see and understand. If anything, you are guilty of a "snap decision" in your bizarre decision for criticising me for daring criticise the idea of allowing another layer of wasteful profit to be squeezed in.
You can be grateful for whatever you like. It's nice when spontaneous illogical gratitude infects people. It makes the world a much nicer place.
Don't like being criticized?
I don't appreciate irrelevant criticism. If you actually have anything positive to say in defence of the PA or Bombardier, then go ahead and say it. If your repertoire of arguments consists wholly of insults, then please spare the public from your juvenile idiocy.
Post something constructive and you'll get a different response.
Pot. Kettle. Black.
I did read it. Why don't you accept responsibility for what you post?
"I have your posts as documentation. "
No, you don't. None of my posts claim any government agency is perfect. Some of them do point out that a given agency's solution is the only workable, politically viable option available in a given case. That does not equal perfect.
"There is little wonder that Subtalkers who have been here a lot longer than me now won't take you seriously"
You haven't been posting on Subtalk long enough to know anything about what goes on on this board. But you do know how to post impulsively. That is all too common on a lot of message boards.
"I did not say that any government agency was incompetent."
So you're not implying that? Fine, my mistake.
"I merely observed that the PA has made a mistake in allowing a private company to operate the service for it."
You cannot have observed that because there is insufficient data for a valid observaaion of that type in this case. You have offered at best, an unsupported opinion, and at worst, an ignrant rant. However, give it six months. If AirTrain is running empty, has a lot of accdents, or otherwise is performing poorly, then you can offer your conclusion.
"I don't appreciate irrelevant criticism."
As I've proved, what I said what right on target. I'm not insulting you, but whether you can accept criticism and respond appropriately depends on your level of maturity.
I do. It's you who seem to have so much arrogance that you can never back down.
So you're not implying that?
Ron In BS technique #5,000,001: putting words into other people's mouths then criticising them for it.
You cannot have observed that because there is insufficient data for a valid observaaion of that type in this case.
Yes I can, as it is a general statement based on past experience. With such a posteriori arguments, however, you are right in stating that any one counterexample can render it invalid. I am waiting for you, the PA, or Bombardier to come up with evidence which contradicts my observations based on prior franchising experiments on railways. The burden of proof is on whosoever wishes to provide a counterexample.
If AirTrain is running empty, has a lot of accdents, or otherwise is performing poorly, then you can offer your conclusion.
Read what I am saying again. I am not predicting empty cars, accidents, or any other form of poor performance. I am merely stating that the $5 fare is high (which, compared to the MTA's buses and subways is undeniably true) and that there is an additional layer of profiteering going on (which is also undeniably true or Bombardier would refuse to operate it). I don't care if AirTrain succeeds or fails. If it is a success, Bombardier will cream of a large sum of money out of fare revenues. If it is a failure, the predictable result of franchising is that they cream their profit off the PA. If you don't believe me, start typing in terms like virgin sra connex subsidy into a search engine and you will see that that is exactly what happens with money losing franchises. Note that I have not stated whether AirTrain is making or losing money or whether it is a success or failure. I merely believe that by cutting out Bombardier, one level of profiteering could be removed and both the PA and the public (so effectively the public twice) could get a better deal.
As I've proved, what I said what right on target.
You have proved nothing other than that you would be typecast for the rôle of Adikos Logos in Aristophanes' Nubes.
In order to make a claim like that, you have to show data that Bombardier is, in fact, gouging. You have not presented any such data. In fact, you specifically state: "Yes I can, as it is a general statement based on past experience." Past experience based on what? Bombardier contracts with other transit agencies? Bombardier contracts with other countries? Adtranz' contract for Newark AirTrain? Your experience with BritRail?
In short, you appear not to have any experience at all (or else you chose not to post any specific evidence).
AirTrain fare is undeniably higher than subway fare. But it is a premium service, and the fare is not "too high" unless the PA finds that demand is elastic to the point where ridership is low. There isn't enough data to determine where the system stands.
"and that there is an additional layer of profiteering going on (which is also undeniably true or Bombardier would refuse to operate it"
Bombardier and the PA agreed upon a contract. IIt may well be that Bombardier can make a profit at a lower cost than the PA would incur. This is not an extra layer of profit. This is cost-efficiency which a bureaucracy like the PA knows it cannot deliver. However, if you have numbers to back up what you say, please post them.
"If you don't believe me, start typing in terms like virgin sra connex subsidy into a search engine "
I did do that. I'm not saying that you don't have a legitimate beef with what's going on in the UK with that. I offer no opinion about that, because I don't know the history over there. You know the history, you have facts, fine. But you haven't got a clue as to just what the PA and Bombardier are doing.
Instead of taking offense, do your homework, come up with some real data (if all you do is wait six months, you'll have plenty to look at) and then revisit the issue. You could be right, but it will be because you researched it, not just from the luck of an uninformed guess. I'll be receptive to what you post. It will make easier reading of course, if you post in a mature, adult fashion. But that takes practice. Good luck.
Premium service!?!
pre·mi·um
adj.
Of superior quality or value: premium gasoline.
When you buy premium gasoline, there are also other grades of gasoline available for purchase. When you ride the Howard Beach leg of the AirTrain, there ARE NO OTHER GRADES OF SERVICE AVAILABLE. If the free shuttle buses were still running, then the AirTrain would be a premium service, but only because the PANYNJ chose to run the shuttle bus service poorly. If the shuttle bus service was run better, then it would at least be on par with the AirTrain, if not better.
There are only two rational arguments against the $5 fare. Either you believe that AirTrain should receive additional government subsidies; or, you believe that they could charge less, but make it up on volume.
The former argument is unassailable, but there simply is no appetite for it in Albany or in Washington. I haven't seen any evidence that would support the latter argument--only wishful thinking.
A fee was added to tickets out of JFK to raise money for the project. I don't know if that covered all of the building costs.
As far as I know, the fee in question (Passenger Facility Charge) is added to all airline tickets sold in the United States, for allocation among airport improvement projects. It's not unique to JFK.
PFT fees are still collected today. Whether all the building costs were covered by pre-opening day PFT money is the question.
Neither is a valid assumption. The Jamaica leg is a far greater improvement to the former service available from Jamaica and cost far more to built; on the Howard Beach leg, the bulk of the beneficiaries are the parking lot users.
Very true. Compared to the Jamaica leg, one could say the Howard Beach leg is not "premium."
So why is a non-premium service charging a premium price?
Did you read the part of my post about competitive bidding for the DBOM contract?
If demand doesn't measure up, the price can change. It's silly to whine about it.
Write to the PA and tell them you refuse to use the service at the current price.
Wrong. It is an express service direct to the terminals. And if people are willing to pay the fare, then a priori it is exactly that. Now, if ridership does not climb as the PA wants, then the fare must be revisited, and your opinion may become the accepted one.
The Heathrow Express is a premium service. When it started running, the Piccadilly line continued to run to the airport. Heathrow passengers have a choice: premium service direct to Paddington or standard Underground service.
If AirTrain is the premium service, where's the standard service?
Or you can do what I did when I arrived at LHR a few weeks ago - the National Express bus to central London. It set no speed records, that's for sure, but it was a pretty good way to see a lot of sights along the way.
Masochist.
a pretty good way to see a lot of sights along the way.
Most tourists don't find west London that interesting.
But please note: if you like it, your enthusiasm and knowledge could make you a great tour guide for folks who come visit you. And in a place they would least expect...
Actually the bus wasn't too bad, it made reasonable time and I had a terrific view from the front seat on the upper level.
a pretty good way to see a lot of sights along the way.
Most tourists don't find west London that interesting.
I find it interesting to see off-the-beaten-path, everyday areas.
OTOH, I have taken the bus: it stops at Notting Hill Gate, where I needed to get off and I didn’t need to change.
I have to admit that since Heathrow Express made its debut, I haven’t used anything else, though that may change once my mother’s house is sold.
However, I think the main complaint is that, in effect, a $5 surcharge has been added to the cost of getting out of the airport by public transport.
However, London isn’t cheap:
Piccadilly Line: Zone 6 Single is £3.80, which is $6.98
Heathrow Express: £12.50 (based on £25 return) plus probably £2 (Zone 1 single) to get somewhere in Central London, which is $26.65.
National Express Bus: £7.50 (based on a £15 return to Victoria Coach Station). Since there are a couple of routes and a reasonable probability that you could get dropped off within walking distance to where you want to get, I’m not adding a Zone 1 single. This works out to $13.79.
So, that $7 is still looking like a comparative bargain!
(conversion rate used is £1 = $1.83809 from here)
Or to put it a different way -- it costs at most £1.30 to go from Hounslow West to Heathrow, but it now costs $5.00 (before MetroCard discounts) to go from Howard Beach to JFK.
You are correct as far as the prices go, but remember in the case of London it's all the same system. LHR service is provided by regular trains on the Piccadilly Line. With JFK, there is an entirely separate sytem providing airport service, not merely a subway extension. It's not surprising that there would be a fare difference higher than with LHR.
That AirTrain isn't integrated into the subway is certainly not an advantage to the traveler.
Not the relevant issue. It's what grade of service was REPLACED. Premium is a relative term, it's true - but the key question here is how much people are willing to pay.
All right - he's not wrong, actually, but he's not entirely right (yet) either. Time will tell that.
For one thing, airports are not private businesses. The Port Authority has slapped an arbitrary $5 toll dividing public property (the streets of Howard Beach) from public property (the JFK parking lots, and even the airport itself). When it comes to private property, the question is most definitively not how much people are willing to pay -- the question how much can people be justifiably asked to pay.
For another, the interesting question is not whether the PA can manage to gouge its "customers"; it's whether the Howard Beach AirTrain at $5 is competitive with the free shuttle buses. Too bad we'll never find out, since the two never operated at the same time.
It's not like the Howard Beach passengers even find out about the $5 fee until they get to Howard Beach. Subway maps still show the free shuttle bus, and there are no posted warnings at the AirTrain stations at the terminals that an exit fee will be charged. Sure, a lot of people are grudgingly willing to pay $5 once they get to Howard Beach and learn that their only alternative is to turn around and go back where they came from -- that doesn't mean they'd pay the $5 if they knew in advance that they'd have to pay it, and it certainly doesn't mean they'd pay the $5 if the free shuttle bus were still an option.
The Heathrow Express is a premium service, supplementing the existing standard Underground service. The Howard Beach AirTrain charges premium fares but is not a premium service; it's merely a overpriced replacement for a standard service.
Having had to deal with the shuttle buses from JFK long-term parking four times in the last few years, I have to respectfully disagree with the assertion that the Howard Beach AirTrain is not a premium service. The buses were unreliable, slow, dirty, jammed, and frequently reeked of diesel fumes. AirTrain is a clean speedy wonder in comparison.
Besides, as I've said before, AirTrain is targeted toward airport users, not railfans, and to someone using JFK the $10 round-trip AirTrain fare is likely a very small percentage of the cost of his or her airline ticket - while it may be changing thanks to JetBlue, the average fare being paid by JFK passengers is probably among the highest of any airports in the country given its emphasis on long-distance and international flights. Aiport and airline workers also use AirTrain, of course, but they benefit from the (very reasonable) $40 monthly fare.
So speaketh the one who gets free AirTrain service, and complains loudly when anyone dares suggest that perhaps parkers should also have to pay the AirTrain fare or their (incredibly low) parking rates be increased to support the service they enjoy.
The proper solution to a bus service that's poorly operated is a bus service that's well operated. There's nothing inherent in the bus technology that demands half-hour headways, and buses are better than trains at operating a variety of service patterns in parallel.
Besides, as I've said before, AirTrain is targeted toward airport users, not railfans, and to someone using JFK the $10 round-trip AirTrain fare is likely a very small percentage of the cost of his or her airline ticket - while it may be changing thanks to JetBlue, the average fare being paid by JFK passengers is probably among the highest of any airports in the country given its emphasis on long-distance and international flights.
That's an excellent reason to impose a $5 fee on all airport users. It's a very bad reason to impose a $5 fee specifically on those who arrive by transit, who on average have less disposable income and are probably going on shorter and less expensive trips than those who arrive by car or taxi.
Aiport and airline workers also use AirTrain, of course, but they benefit from the (very reasonable) $40 monthly fare.
How is a 57% fare hike "very reasonable"?
And how is it "very reasonable" that, for the exact same service, one person might be paying $5, another about $1, and a third $0, depending on how often they use the service and whether they happen to be storing a vehicle in the area?
That's a legitimate question which deserves some debate, Have you brought this up with the PA, or are you sticking to your usual habit of only visiting Subtalk?
"The proper solution to a bus service that's poorly operated is a bus service that's well operated."
That's Dr. Greenberger being closed-minded. Aproperly operated bus service is one option, but the proper answer to a poorly operated bus service is to consider all the options, including rail service. The PA chose rail service.
That's Dr. Greenberger being closed-minded.
Actually, Dr. Greenberger is being incredibly open-minded in considering something which doesn't involve huge capital expenditure.
It may not be possible to provide a vastly improved service at Kennedy with only buses. The Port authority actually had to look at that as part of the EIS process. Neither you nor David gave that even a minute's thought.
Or rather they had to include ONE bus option. Bus options tend to be far more numerous than such statements state. (And this is coming from someone who isn't the greatest fan of buses).
Not really. They basically boil down to putting buses on roadways. And at Kennedy there isn't a whole lot more room for them. At Denver's new airport, you have lots of things you can do. At Kennedy, the "multiple" bus options would be more or less putting the same sheet of paper through the photocopier.
In the interest of maximal fairness, though, and "playing by the book,"you're right in that more than one bus option could have been presented. But since none would have been attractive or competitive here, in practical terms this omission meant nothing.
Says who?????? If they weren't studied, then you can't say that they were unattractive. You are only stating your opinion, which many here very often do not agree with.
Also, do you have a copy of the EIS that you can share with all of us?
Yes, you can. The Port Authority could create an EIS with a dozen options for rail, a dozen options for bus, a dozen options for a two-mile long moving sidewalk from Howard Beach and lots of other choices, but this would be counter-productive. The PA selected the best options, reflecting very different alternatives to present to the public. They do not have to present trivial alternatives to these options.
You had an opportunity to frame options much earlier, during the Scoping Document phase. This is where what the EIS will cover is defined. Did you participate? I did.
I have a paper copy here someplace of the EIS, buried in a closet.
You can also get access to it at the main Queens Library (or ask to see it at the Queens Borough President's office). Copies are on file there.
A bus service operated well is not a trivial option.
Of course, there doesn't need to be an elevated busway the entire way from Howard Beach to the terminals -- a bus can use existing roads where congestion is not a problem.
Roads at JFK are usually congested.
Wrong. At JFK itself, yes, over the Van Wyck, yes - then you create a mess connecting it to something, and the capital cost is pretty close to what AirTrain would have cost. That's not a real alternative; it's a waste of paper and time and money.
And there would be zero political support for it. That is also a factor. A phantom busway that nobody wants and would never be built.
Those roads do not exist, and even if they did, you still end up having to enter the terminal somewhere. You're creating an option nobody, not the PA, not MTA, not the public, not airport employees, is interested in.
If traffic at the terminal warrants an elevated busway (and I'm not convinced it does), then build an elevated busway for the terminal loop. That's a small piece of the ride to Howard Beach, and it can be built for a fraction of the price of an elevated rail line the entire distance.
"If traffic at the terminal warrants an elevated busway (and I'm not convinced it does), then build an elevated busway for the terminal loop."
Too bad neither the PA nor MTA nor DOT agrees with you. Obviously the conclusion we must reach is that they are all wrong and you are right.
"That's a small piece of the ride to Howard Beach, and it can be built for a fraction of the price of an elevated rail line the entire distance."
No, actually it's quite a large piece of it. AirTrain sits on a structure that would otherwise have been a wider platform for buses. You want the PA to invest in that kind of busway you're going to have to come up with more than just a few specious posts.
I would gladly read it if I could get my hands on it. Google hasn't been able to find it, nor have either of the New York Public Library catalog systems. Apparently I'm not the first to have trouble finding it.
Since you claim to have a copy, why don't you post a summary of the alternatives? It would take less time than scolding everyone who dares to discuss the topic without having read an EIS they don't have access to.
Too bad neither the PA nor MTA nor DOT agrees with you. Obviously the conclusion we must reach is that they are all wrong and you are right.
What do the MTA and DOT have to do with this? Of course the PA doesn't agree -- the PA would never get away with charging $5 for a bus service. Buses aren't glitzy.
Was this one of the alternatives discussed in the EIS?
No, actually it's quite a large piece of it. AirTrain sits on a structure that would otherwise have been a wider platform for buses. You want the PA to invest in that kind of busway you're going to have to come up with more than just a few specious posts.
The terminal loop is 1.8 miles long; the line from the terminal loop to Howard Beach is 3.3 miles long. Which do you think is cheaper, a 1.8-mile elevated busway or a 5.1-mile elevated railway? And why don't you back up your claims with facts for a change? You even have the EIS at your disposal and you still dodge the questions every time they come up.
My, how soon we forget. Wasn't it just a few weeks ago that you were "congratulating" me for emailing a suggestion of some sort to the MTA? (As if I need your "congratulations.")
That's Dr. Greenberger being closed-minded.
Will wonders never cease! I have just been awarded the doctorate on an Internet message board.
Aproperly operated bus service is one option, but the proper answer to a poorly operated bus service is to consider all the options, including rail service. The PA chose rail service.
Were all the options seriously considered, or only the options that would promote the Port Authority's agendas?
I didn't forget. You did a good deed there. Now I'm daring you to do another. Do it a couple of more times and I'll believe you've turned over a new leaf.
"Were all the options seriously considered, or only the options that would promote the Port Authority's agendas?"
Did you participate in the process (Scoping, EIS, etc.)? If you didn't, you it's understandable that you wouldn't know the answer.
I did participate, along with many others. The answer to your question is "Yes, all significant and doable options were considered."
So a well-operated bus service is not a doable option?
Where? Which section? What page? Please be specific.
I do happen to have a copy of the DEIS, I've been looking for such a detailed analysis in it for the JFK AirTrain.
According to the distribution list, the only place for public review in Manhattan was at the Mid Manhattan Library. They may still have a copy.
However, the PA may not have sent one. The reason I have a copy is that the PA placed public notices in local papers regarding the availability of the EIS and a 30 day comment period. They avoided the larger Queens libraries and distributed them to smaller branch libraries, usually far removed from JFK.
I decided to review the document and walked to the Queensborough Hill Branch Library. The librarian informed me that they never received the document despite the public notice in the Queens Tribune. The librarian wrote a letter to that effect to me. I sent a copy of that letter and a request that the review process be halted to the FHWA until all stated venues for public review had received the document.
I received my copy of the DEIS by mail from Louis Berger & Associates, Inc., the DEIS authors, about a month after the expiration for public comment.
According to the cover letter, requests for a copy of the FEIS can be made from Mr. Laurence Schaefer, FAA, 718-533-3340, fax 718-995-9219, or Mr. Victor Teglasi, NYSDOT, 718-482-4519, fax 718-482-7688. The cover letter was dated May 21, 1997.
I received my copy of the DEIS by mail from Louis Berger & Associates, Inc., the DEIS authors, about a month after the expiration for public comment. "
I'm sure that's because your name is Stephen Baumann. You see, I got all those details from the consultant BEFORE the comment period had ended, and anything else I wanted free for the asking.
Why did I get that and not you? Or maybe you're no posting honestly?
Well, since you got "all those details", perhaps you would answer my question - to wit: where in the EIS is the question of a well-run bus option analyzed? You said it was in there, you also stated that you have the DEIS - where's the beef?
Because stephen says so today? Bullshit. The only excuses are yours (and stephen's). I got the documentation; other people got them, including some critics; the Strappies got them. You didn't get them because you didn't ask for them.
The public notices gave a list of locations the DEIS was supposedly available. It had never been sent to at least one of those locations. End of story.
You are calling Stephen Bauman and Daniel Carreau liars. Would you care to justify those accusations? Do you know for a fact that the Queensborough Hill library had a copy of the DEIS during the dates indicated in the public notices?
Unsupported statement by you. They were certainly there when the PA announced they were distributing them.
And at least one of them obtained a letter from a librarian stating that the library never received its copy.
That's three points of support. It's your statement that's unsupported.
If Mid-Manhattan has a copy, it's not showing up in the system, or maybe I'm just not searching for the right keyword.
Hasn't anybody heard of this nifty information distribution system called the World Wide Web? I was first introduced to it in January 1994.
Or maybe, like Queensborough Hill, the PA simply listed it in the distribution list and did not send the library any copies.
Hasn't anybody heard of this nifty information distribution system called the World Wide Web? I was first introduced to it in January 1994.
Wide dissemination of the EIS was not one of the PA's objectives. Neither was outreach to AirTrain's critics.
False statement. I fact, the PA's critics of the project (self-serving and dishonest as many were) had plenty of access to anything they wanted to see.
Maybe the problem is that Stephen Baumann is not known for other than self-serving posts on Subtalk. :0)
You mean by limiting the published distribution list to a few, small, out of the way branch libraries and then not not sending the libraries copies of the documentation?
Maybe the problem is that Stephen Baumann is not known for other than self-serving posts on Subtalk.
Consult the 13 Nov 1993 issue of the New York Times, p 22.
Claire Shulman's office had a copy.
"You mean by limiting the published distribution list to a few, small, out of the way branch libraries"
There is no such thing as an "out of the way branch library" in New York. That statement is nonsensical on its face. You consult the list, get on the subway, or ride a bus, or drive, or whatever, and you go.
If you're too lazy to do any of those things, you have no right to complain afterward that nobody gave you access to the document.
Not everybody can afford that sort of time. I realize the economy isn't great, but not everyone is unemployed.
You did finally look up the information - I congratulate you. Regardless of whether or not you agree with what you read, at least you learned something. Cool.
For anyone who works for a living, time is money. Unless you are offering to compensate those people for their lost wages, you have no right to call them lazy for spending their time on more productive tasks.
Claire Shulman's office had a copy.
Claire Shulman's office was open only from 9 am to 5 pm. I, like most of the other 95% of the working public at that time, found those hours inconvenient to pursue personal interests. The same holds true for the community board offices. BTW, the only communtiy board offices that received copies were: Astoria; Jackson Heights; South Ozone Park; Jamaica; Queens Village and Far Rockaway. Not one was particularly convenient to a Flushing resident. The only venues that were open on weekends or evenings were public libraries.
There is no such thing as an "out of the way branch library" in New York.
These are the Queens libraries that were repositories for the FEIS: Forest Hills, Ozone Park, Woodside, Sunnyside and North Forest Park. You will note that the two most heavily used libraries: the Jamaica Central and the Flushing Branch were not on the distribution list.
You consult the list, get on the subway, or ride a bus, or drive, or whatever, and you go.
I walked the 2 miles from my house to the Queensborough Hill branch. The purpose of having a branch library system is that a library should be within walking distance of every location in the city.
Regarding the adequacy of the public comment period. It lasts 30 days from the announcement of the availbility of an D/F/EIS in the Federal Register. There appears to be no requirement that copies of the documents actually have to be sent to the repositories stated in the Federal Register.
I guess you haven't heard of the 7 subway. You know, that line that connects Flushing to Jackson Heights on its way to Manhattan?
"These are the Queens libraries that were repositories for the FEIS: Forest Hills, Ozone Park, Woodside, Sunnyside and North Forest Park."
Transfer from the 7 to the Queens Blvd. subway to get to Forest Hills. Or, ride the LIRR or the 7 from Flushing-Main Street to 61-Woodside.
Motivation (laziness?) was a much more important factor in your case. Your post is strictly hypocritical.
Or, you take the E train to Kew Gardens and ask to see a copy at the Queens Borough Prez's office.
Or you can whine, do nothing and not learn anything. Oh well...
No, David, in 1994, governments were not putting everything up on the Web. Get over it.
State.
Unless you don't really have it, of course...:0)
It does not discuss a partial busway to Howard Beach alone, nor does it discuss bus service improvements with no busway (e.g., shorter headways and/or express service to the terminals). I saw no reference anywhere to my idea of cross-platform transfers with the subway (via a pair of overpasses across the subway tracks, one at each end of the station).
Maybe Ron has a special copy. Too bad he refuses to support his claim by citing a page number. He doesn't even have to make a special trip to the library.
---Sir Ronald of McDonald
Though I do agree with his sometimes unwillingness behavior...
You are no worse than a member of the KKK, except that you don't advocate violence. Maybe to you "ageism" exists only on SubTalk because this is the only place where you encounter people half your age who are smarter than you and have the nerve to put you down where you belong. If you don't like that, then leave, we'll all be better off.
The newspaper that will carry your obituary will be the newspaper of a great day.
You've discredited Ron as much as you can over the last 6 months. You are now discrediting only yourself.
When a large group of SubTalkers (At least all of the top 50 posters) agrees to either:
1. not respond to Ron ever again
and/or
2. to put Ron on Killfile
then we will have discredited Ron as much as we can.
I do concede that some of the responses to Ron have crossed the line from politeness to offensive rudeness, and while I don't defend this behavior, Ron himself is being rude by refusing to answer a question that he is quite easily capable of answering.
I agree with this, except that Ron's behavior has justified it. It's not just one person who has responded in this negative manner to him.
What do you expect from someone who dismisses any kind of displeasure with his intolerance for people on account of perceived age as some "SubTalk idea" (as if SubTalk ideas are worthy of contempt anyway... well, if they're from Ron they are).
You clearly are, and the evidence of that is in the rest of your post.
least of all you.
You are more intolerant and disrespectful of me than any other poster on this board. Of course, the opposite works to, but I did not become intolerant and disrespectful of you for no reason.
I think you're bright and post a hell of a lot of good stuff.
I can concede that you are also bright, but you do not post a hell of a lot of good stuff, you counter the good stuff that you do post with your negativity and intolerance. I can commend you for your efforts to encourage people to write their politicians.
you've shown some age-appropriate immaturity
THIS is your problem. You can't just say that you dislike my ideas or the way I present them, instead, you have to bring the HERRING of age into the equation. Your attitude is just like people who ignored what women had to say in the past because they were considered lesser beings.
that will take time to go away.
No, it won't. I would actually respect you to some extent if you decided to claim that you dislike my ideas and/or the way I present them for no reason, rather than giving this reason. You don't tell someone they don't know what they're talking about because they're black/female/foreign/poor, so why use this?
Not to mention your temper will cool a little too.
My temper will cool when you're gone.
If you want to stay, then keep your BIGOTED beliefs to yourself. I can respect a person who is a racist at heart but works hard to suppress those feelings and work around them.
If you want to prove to me that people are inferior exclusively because of their age, at least put forth some evidence (even anecdotal) to that extent.
It was not an honest question. You don't know David Greenberger (on Subtalk, anyway) like I do. And yes, this is about spoonfeeding.
"The courteous thing is to help the discussion, not to say "Find it yourself."
If you had asked the question, I would have helped you look it up. But you weren't the one asking. However, you do have a point in that others who have no idea what David is actually doing want to know the answer to the question.
I'm glad David found a way to the information. He got motivated and did it.
I'm not being rude at all. I'm holding a mirror up to David and he dislikes that.
Probably because if you held the mirror the other way, you might actually be forced to change your bad attitude.
Whoa.
1. You specifically won't help David - finally, the truth comes out.
2. It took a post from American Pig for you to realize that other people on this board want to know answers to questions that others pose, especially when they participate in the discussion? You can't be as bright as American Pig is giving you credit for.
So what happens now when someone else has a question about the EIS? Are you gonna make them and anyone else after them go to the library to look it up, or are you going to finally get off your ass and look it up? This thread just proved that besides being a bad person, you really don't know as much as you claim to, and you also are downright dishonest.
The fact remains that you said that the PA ruled out an improved bus service, yet is not mentioned in the EIS. You sir, are a liar.
Yes, it is. It's called the no-build alternative.
You are the liar here, not me.
Somebody is lying.
The PA fulfilled every requirement of the EIS process both in letter and in intent. The fact that the document doesn't fulfill David's iconoclastic requirements is all about David, not the PA.
Yet David could have participated in this - even from Illinois. If he had, his letter(s) would havebeen included in the FEIS - and who knows, maybe the PA would have re-examined some aspects of the project. David would say that's unlikely, but we'll never know, because he didn't do it.
In any event, none of the above has to do with the PA not "PA fulfill[ing] every requirement of the EIS process both in letter and in intent" or David's not having been involved in the EIS process. Every time Ron mentions those two points, he is just trying to steer the discussion away from the fact that he is either wrong or doesn't know the answer or doesn't want to know the answer. Luckily, I am able to see this and will not respond to his diversionary, off-topic, tactics.
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Like I said, it is not a no-build alternative. Please explain why you think it is a no-build alternative (it is ok if your reason is the same as the PA's reason, just give a reason).
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Decreasing headways or instituting express service is a major change. The no-build analysis does not apply.
No it isn't. You haven't done your homework again. Go back and read.
By this point I've apparently read more about AirTrain than you have. If there is a specific item you are suggesting that I read, please tell me specifically what it is. I am not going to spend another three hours to search through a foot-thick document for a discussion that doesn't exist.
An impressive achievement, considering that I spent some of my free time over 6+ years researching it, consulting with Assembly staff, council members, community boards and then conducting public advocacy for the project.
Speed reading is certainly a virtue...would you like me to send you a gold star to put on your forehead? :0)
And yet what do you have to show for it? You don't have any page numbers to post. You don't have any quotes from the EIS. You don't have any specific answers about the AirTrain design process. And you have lied on many occasions. So it seems that what you just said above is also a lie.
A completed AirTrain system. And I got a pair of Subtalkers to do some reading.
"You don't have any page numbers to post. You don't have any quotes from the EIS"
No, that was YOUR problem (unless and until you took the trouble to look it up). But you still don't grasp was you read, and don't understand the EIS process. That will come with time and experience (but you have to spend time doing that reading, not just running around the subway photographing trains).
That much is certain...
"But I will not sit down and read 1000+ pages when you have the answers at your fingertips."
You won't even consult the table of contents. Congratulations!
If you send me her address, I'll mail your girlfriend an "I'm with Stupid" t-shirt she can wear with pride.
:0)
No, you haven't done your homework again.
Huh?
I'm giving him credit? Where?
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I come here to discuss. Rather than engage in discussion, you prefer to announce that a final decision has already been made. You don't elaborate on the reasons and you don't even give a proper citation -- the only advice you give is to read an entire foot-thick document that's available in a handful of noncirculating library collections. Obviously, you can't think of any arguments of your own and you don't expect anyone to actually locate the EIS and wade through it.
So I called your bluff and exposed you as a liar.
If you had any credibility earlier in the week, you've lost every last shred of it.
Have I ever tried to squelch discussions by claiming that the topic was already discussed ten years ago?
Have I ever given a citation of a foot-thick document that I but few other posters have a copy of, without giving a chapter number, a page number, or the like?
And have I ever been caught fabricating my claims in the process?
Turns out that they weren't discussed in the EIS at all. And even if they were, some posters might have still been interested in discussing the issues.
Good for you. I concluded at the time that if they were going to put up that much infrastructure anyway, I wanted rail, not bus. Cheaper to operate and more reliable.
"I saw no reference anywhere to my idea of cross-platform transfers with the subway (via a pair of overpasses across the subway tracks, one at each end of the station)."
Had you written to the PA at the time about that idea, your comments would have been included in the FEIS, along with the PA's response to it.
nor does it discuss bus service improvements with no busway (e.g., shorter headways and/or express service to the terminals).
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"nor does it discuss bus service improvements with no busway (e.g., shorter headways and/or express service to the terminals)."
That belongs under the No Build category. So yes, it is covered in the FEIS. Sorry about that.
Would you like to try again to respond to why
nor does it discuss bus service improvements with no busway (e.g., shorter headways and/or express service to the terminals)
is not mentioned as an option?
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No Build means "No Build." It means you are not going to expend money building infrastructure. Changes in procedure, such as changing the timetable of an existing bus route on existing road, or changing the timing of traffic signals, is dealt with in that category.
I'm also not the one tries to end a discussion prematurely because I can't think of arguments in favor of my side.
Anyhow, not every idea can go through a full engineering study, or else the EIS process would cost more than building the final alternative. At some point, smart people need to use their judgment and experience to narrow the list down to a handful of the most promising options, and it's those options that get the full-dress analysis.
If it matters to you that much, you could probably find the MIS report that discussed the much longer list of options that were considered and rejected. I agree with RonInBayside that no conceivable permutation of bus service could have been offered at reasonable cost with benefits comparable to the AirTrain.
It's fair to ask whether the right rail option was chosen, and whether that option has sufficient benefits to justify the investment. Even at the time the project was approved, many people questioned whether it was worth spending all that money without getting a one-seat ride into Manhattan. On those questions I think the jury is still out.
"Anyhow, not every idea can go through a full engineering study, or else the EIS process would cost more than building the final alternative. At some point, smart people need to use their judgment and experience to narrow the list down to a handful of the most promising options, and it's those options that get the full-dress analysis. "
Most of the other ideas not directly studied are variations of the ones considered. Thus, the main alternatives studied are "Prototypes" of their respective categories.
None of the other options were remotely related to:
bus service improvements with no busway (e.g., shorter headways and/or express service to the terminals).
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Obviously.
They were related and appropriate.
I think you've said that before... I'm curious as to WHY you think they were related and appropriate.
They were not selected.
As the winner, or to be at least mentioned as an option? Apparently both.
If you had written to the PA to urge consideration of a specific idea, it would at least (by law) have been addressed in the comments section, and the PA would have written a specific reply to it.
You are off-topic again.
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The EIS argues against a full busway between Howard Beach and the terminals, argues against a partial busway to Jamaica, and obviously argues against the no-build option. How do those same arguments apply to my ideas of a partial busway between Howard Beach and the terminals and of major service improvements with no capital construction?
They incorporate your ideas. Had you submitted your idea coherently to the PA in a letter they would have addressed the letter specifically. But you didn't. Your fault.
Back and forth we go. I'm starting to get dizzy. On Thursday you said that they incorporated related ideas. Which is it? And how about a citation to back up your claim, for a change?
Had you submitted your idea coherently to the PA in a letter they would have addressed the letter specifically.
Sure. And like most other comments that they didn't feel like addressing, they probably would have either told me that my comments would be considered or answered a question I didn't ask.
But you didn't. Your fault.
My fault? For what? I'm trying to hold a discussion on SubTalk. Writing a letter to the Port Authority in 1993 is a prerequisite for holding a discussion on SubTalk in 2004?
At least you admit your prejudice. But we'll never know, because you never bothered. Of course, that's convenient for you. you don't have to let go of your misconceptions.
Certainly, a partial busway from Howard Beach wouldn't have shared the benefits of the full AirTrain -- but it would have provided a subset of the benefits at much lower cost.
One critique I've expressed of the AirTrain EIS is that the fare structure is set in stone from the start. Service from Jamaica has improved phenomenally over anything possible via the Van Wyck, and the elevated structure over the Van Wyck was a major engineering challenge, yet the fare is only $5 -- exactly the same as the New York Airport Service bus to Jamaica, which runs once an hour and gets stuck in inevitable traffic. Parkers and on-airport travelers pay nothing for their improved service. They are instead subsidized by subway riders coming from Howard Beach, which until December was specifically the route used by those who were unable or unwilling to pay more than a single subway fare to reach the airport. And, naturally, the traffic that congests the terminal roadways -- without which buses from Howard Beach would have done just fine without a busway at all -- has free access as well. That doesn't make sense to me, but no other fare options were considered in the EIS.
Why do you think I care what you believe?
Did you participate in the process (Scoping, EIS, etc.)? If you didn't, you it's understandable that you wouldn't know the answer.
Obviously I didn't -- that's why I'm asking a question. I'm afraid it's difficult to participate in such a process from Illinois.
I did participate, along with many others. The answer to your question is "Yes, all significant and doable options were considered."
In other words, the options that would promote the Port Authority's agendas. Thank you.
You're right. Maybe you're just posting to see yourself in print? :0)
"Obviously I didn't -- that's why I'm asking a question. I'm afraid it's difficult to participate in such a process from Illinois. "
Agreed. But in your posts you advocate positions and some very strong opinions even though you freely admit you have not read any of the EIS documents and are not familiar with the alternatives the PA examined.
By the way, when I started in 1994, I got a lot of information by US mail and phone (and fax). You can do that from anywhere.
Granted, local newspaper articles would have been difficult to obtain outside of NY back then.
"In other words, the options that would promote the Port Authority's agendas."
False statement. The alternatives examined represented positions that a lot of PA critics actually liked. And since you didn't make any effort to educate yourself about AirTrain, the EIS process, or anything else, you're hardly in a position to come to any conclusion about it.
I'm posting because I'd like to participate in intelligent discussions of transportation issues. Shocking, is it not? I guess I came to the wrong thread.
Perhaps you'd like to start up a new message board where you can pat posters on the back. I will not be joining.
The most recent time I used JFK, for my London trip a few weeks ago, I used the A train and paid the $5 AirTrain fare. I can't speak for everyone, of course, but for my part I'd say I'll be more likely to use transit (LIRR, mainly) for any future JFK flights, rather than deal with traffic. And the long term parking's not THAT cheap.
The proper solution to a bus service that's poorly operated is a bus service that's well operated. There's nothing inherent in the bus technology that demands half-hour headways, and buses are better than trains at operating a variety of service patterns in parallel.
Yes, the bus service could have been run well, but the fact remains that it was horribly run.
Now the decision about how to charge for parking and the AirTrain is a business decision. Personally, I would like to see the cost built into the facility charge that the airlines pay the PA to land (and thus it gets passed to every passenger), and maybe charge a toll on each vehicle that uses airport roads, particularly during peak hours, as a form of congestion pricing.
However, I don’t run the PA, so if I want to use JFK, I have to play by the PA’s rules (same applies to Newark). Though I’m lucky in that I have the third choice of Philadelphia, which has SEPTA service and seems to have been designed with the railroad between the terminals and the parking lots from the outset, a much better way of doing things IMHO.
JFK's terminal arrangement isn't amenable to a SEPTA-style system.
It's not arbitrary. It was determined by competitive bid as delivering the needed service at a contract price. A price of some kind would have had to be paid; the question is how much. The PA does not collect taxes for this (the PFT money was used for construction, not operation).
"When it comes to private property, the question is most definitively not how much people are willing to pay -- the question how much can people be justifiably asked to pay. "
And the competitive bidding for the Design Build Operate and Maintain contract established the appropriate initial price (which can change). So your definition is correct, and the PA has satisfied that condition.
"It's not like the Howard Beach passengers even find out about the $5 fee until they get to Howard Beach. Subway maps still show the free shuttle bus, and there are no posted warnings at the AirTrain stations at the terminals that an exit fee will be charged."
Your criticism is valid, but that is changing. After I attended the first day of AirTrain event, I wrote to the MTA complaining about the lack of suitable maps. The December 2003 version of The Map now shows AirTrain. And the MTA has a new brochure out at subway stations and kiosks describing AirTrain, including fares. I have a copy of this brochure.
Station maps need to be updated; a few signs in subway stations in Dec of 2003 did point the direction of AirTrain.
The PA's website describes everything about AirTrain.
as station maps get changed over, your objections will be addressed. Ibelieve that, "AirSide," the fares are posted so incoming air passengers do see that information.
A price of some kind would have had to be paid for walking from the neighborhood to the airport? Read my post again.
Even if my post had something to do with riding AirTrain itself, the Port Authority apparently doesn't agree with you that "a price of some kind would have had to be paid" -- after all, the vast majority of AirTrain passengers ride for free.
And the competitive bidding for the Design Build Operate and Maintain contract established the appropriate initial price (which can change). So your definition is correct, and the PA has satisfied that condition.
Competitive bidding is the appropriate way to set the price for a private service operating on private property. It is not the appropriate way to set the price for a public service operating on public property.
(If competitive bidding had yielded a fare of $100 from Howard Beach, would that have been okay?)
Your criticism is valid, but that is changing. After I attended the first day of AirTrain event, I wrote to the MTA complaining about the lack of suitable maps. The December 2003 version of The Map now shows AirTrain.
No it doesn't. Nor does the February 2004 map that one poster spotted on a Q train. The one I saw on a W train today does show AirTrain but it says nothing about the fare.
And the MTA has a new brochure out at subway stations and kiosks describing AirTrain, including fares. I have a copy of this brochure.
Good for the handful of folks who pick up the brochure. What about the random guy who's still using his old map from 2002 (or 1992)? Sure, he'll pay the $5 once he gets to Howard Beach, but would he have gone to Howard Beach to begin with had he known about the 250% fare increase? (Would he have even flown out of JFK? Many domestic flights are available from both JFK and LGA.)
Station maps need to be updated; a few signs in subway stations in Dec of 2003 did point the direction of AirTrain.
There are many station signs posted. Not a single one of them mentions an extra fare of $5.
The PA's website describes everything about AirTrain.
Do you really think that most airline travelers go to the PA's website before taking the exact same route to the airport that they took last time?
as station maps get changed over, your objections will be addressed.
Then you do not understand my objections.
Ibelieve that, "AirSide," the fares are posted so incoming air passengers do see that information.
"AirSide" meaning in the terminals? Not that I've seen. "AirSide" meaning at Howard Beach, on the AirTrain side of the turnstiles? Of course. And the people who pay $5 in response to those signs cannot be counted as people who prefer the $5 AirTrain option over other options from the airport itself -- they can merely be counted as people who'd prefer, once already at Howard Beach, to pay $5 than to backtrack to the terminal loop and seek alternative transportation.
I'm sorry, but that is your personal opinion, not shared by many other people, including many in government and their constituents.
"Even if my post had something to do with riding AirTrain itself, the Port Authority apparently doesn't agree with you that "a price of some kind would have had to be paid" -- after all, the vast majority of AirTrain passengers ride for free. "
False statement. The PA's contract specified a price for service to rail connection points. The Staten Island Railway is free, too, between most stations, but if you want to connect legally to the Ferry at St. George, you have to pay the fare.
"The December 2003 version of The Map now shows AirTrain."
"No it doesn't. Nor does the February 2004 map that one poster spotted on a Q train."
Yes it does. I have that map in my possession and AirTrain is listed. You need to look again.
"The one I saw on a W train today does show AirTrain but it says nothing about the fare."
"Then you do not understand my objections. "
I do. Whether you understand your own objections is still an open question. :0)
AirSide means the terminals. Landside means the subway or LIRR connection.
If signs are still missing, then by all means protest to the PA.
Valid point. So write to MTA and complain.
"Do you really think that most airline travelers go to the PA's website before taking the exact same route to the airport that they took last time?"
I think most people who have used theInternet know how to look up JFK information there. Do you think most New Yorkers don't know that the most current subway map is available for viewing on-line?
Really? The courts grumble whenever Microsoft, a private corporation, takes advantage of its de facto near-monopoly status in operating systems by squelching the competition in other software domains and then charging the price the market will bear, yet it's only my personal opinion that a public agency has no business taking advantage of its de jure full monopoly status in NYC-area airports by squelching the competition in ground transport systems to the airport and then charging the price the market will bear?
False statement. The PA's contract specified a price for service to rail connection points. The Staten Island Railway is free, too, between most stations, but if you want to connect legally to the Ferry at St. George, you have to pay the fare.
Hey, I'm not the one who made the claim that "a price of some kind would have to be paid."
Yes it does. I have that map in my possession and AirTrain is listed. You need to look again.
I stand corrected. It shows AirTrain with a proposed opening date. But nowhere is an additional fare of $5 stated or implied.
I do. Whether you understand your own objections is still an open question. :0)
Then please state them for my clarification.
I think most people who have used theInternet know how to look up JFK information there. Do you think most New Yorkers don't know that the most current subway map is available for viewing on-line?
Do you think most New Yorkers who remember how to get to the airport from the last time they went there look it up again before going a second time? Why would they?
With the massive construction of new terminals, new roadways, and AirTrain turning JFK into a massive construction pit for the last 10 years, the only person besides you who would ask that question is the dude who they escorted out of his cave after assuring him that World War II was really over.
"yet it's only my personal opinion that a public agency has no business taking advantage of its de jure full monopoly status in NYC-area airports by squelching the competition in ground transport systems to the airport and then charging the price the market will bear? "
They didn't squelch anything. That's your personal characterization. They gave me something I've been waiting for a long time.
Hey, if you didn't participate in the scoping/EIS process or otherwise make your views known to the PA and elected officials, it would be a little hypocritical of you to cry foul now. I participated, as did many others. I didn't get everything I wanted, but I got most of what I wanted and my voice was heard and listened to.
Didn't happen for you? Your fault.
I hate to break it to you, but most casual fliers don't pay any attention to that sort of thing.
They didn't squelch anything. That's your personal characterization. They gave me something I've been waiting for a long time.
Microsoft gives lots of people something they've been waiting for a long time. (A bug fix, if nothing else.) That doesn't mean that Microsoft hasn't been squelching the competition in the opinion of the courts.
I'm glad AirTrain meets your needs. The shuttle buses, which no longer exist, met some other people's needs.
I spoke to a number of people at Howard Beach a few days before AirTrain opened. They all expressed outrage when I mentioned what would be happening in a few days. I guess the shuttle buses met their needs while the $5 AirTrain does not.
Whose needs? Count Leopold von Sacher-Masoch has been dead 200 years.
A person who is so poor that the $5 AirTrain fare is a potential deal-breaker wouldn't be paying hundreds - or even thousands - of dollars to fly out of JFK. Almost no one using JFK is paying less than $200 for his or her air fare after all taxes and fees are included. Even using this minimum, the $10 AirTrain round-trip is only 5% of the air fare. Not a big deal.
An additional point: Suppose that the competitive bidding process had created a $100 fare, as Professor Greenberger muses here. That's not a problem. The trains run empty, the PA cannot support its operation with zero (or near zero) revenue, and the price drops - to where equilibrium is established.
Vacationers spending thousands of dollars don't use the Howard Beach connection. They take cabs or drive.
I don't fly often, but I'll mention my three most recent flights. The most recent cost about $141 round trip. I don't know how much the prior one cost, since I didn't pay for the tickets, but I was responsible for my own ground transportation. The one before that, in 2000, cost about $500, IIRC, but only because my grandfather had passed away and I had to buy the tickets on about six hours' notice to make it to the funeral, and that's $500 more than a graduate student can afford to spend on an unexpected vacation.
I sympathize with you there. If it were up to me, I would charge them something, and I would do it for reasons similar to yours.
Write the PA and your elected offcials and say so!
So then write to the PA and your elected officials about it. Your sympathies mean nothing on SubTalk.
If all you do is complain about it on Subtalk, then it obviously doesn't really bother you either.
1) you don't know if I've sent a letter or not and I'm not going to tell you
2) I know that discussing issues on SubTalk will not affect change, and therefore my discussions on SubTalk have nothing to do with affecting change. They are purely discussions.
True. The key word in your sentence is "decided." However, Subtalk is a forum where the relative importance of issues can be debated.
"I know that discussing issues on SubTalk will not affect change,"
False statement. Real changes in the form of service plan details and details of implemented rail proposals have occurred as a consequence of Subtalk discussions.
" and therefore my discussions on SubTalk have nothing to do with affecting change."
True statement for you ONLY.
Proff?
True statement for you ONLY.
So I'll expect you to not ever again tell me to write a letter. The same should go for anyone else who echos my sentiments by replying to this post and saying so.
Lots of ideas show up here. They get bounced around, as this place is a good sounding board. Then they can be refined, if the person is motivated enough, and submitted.
And don't forget, Train Dude (a senior MTA guy) visits here. It's possible he never formulated an idea based on some of the things discussed here, but I'll let him speak for himself.
"So I'll expect you to not ever again tell me to write a letter. The same should go for anyone else who echos my sentiments by replying to this post and saying so."
Not everyone is as defensive and childish in their posting as you just were.
So you're saying that just because certain ideas were discussed here and then ended up as part of a project, it means that SubTalk played a part in it? I don't buy it. I want specific proff from someone who would know such things of a specific example of a part of a project originating from a SubTalk discussion.
Not everyone is as defensive and childish in their posting as you just were.
Not everyone beats around the bush and doesn't address the issue. Either you will or you will not refrain from telling me to write letters, based upon our previous exchange:
" and therefore my discussions on SubTalk have nothing to do with affecting change."
True statement for you ONLY.
You didn't attend the public hearings did you? You also weren't privy to correspondence between the MTA and certain other parties. Do you read MTA's public documents? Look at testimony and responses?
You didn't look at Old Tom's posts about Metrocard Insurance (really well thought out stuff. You should read it).
"I want specific proff from someone who would know such things of a specific example of a part of a project originating from a SubTalk discussion. "
You just got it.
If you want to limit yourself to Subtalk, that's fine. If you want to limit yourself to posting pictures on your other website (cool website, by the way,I check it out often) that's fine too. Some of us choose to do more. And you can, too.
Up to you.
I was out of the country during the hearings. But what does this have to do with you giving me an exmaple? That is what I asked for, not for you to ask me if I attended the public hearings.
You also weren't privy to correspondence between the MTA and certain other parties.
What the hell are you talking about?
Do you read MTA's public documents? Look at testimony and responses?
Of course I do.
You didn't look at Old Tom's posts about Metrocard Insurance
How the hell can I look at something if I don't know it exists? That's why I asked YOU for the specific examples. I don't see why it took you several sentences of blathering bullshit to get to one supposed example. You have a serious EGO problem. If you'd like to tell us all about the "great" transit things you've done, then by all means make a thread and go ahead. But I didn't ask you about them in this thread. If you were planning on giving me an answer, you could have just said "search the archives for metrocard insurance" and I would have. If you instead wanted to be cocky, then you should have done so WITHOUT giving me an answer to my question. That way I could have just not read your post. If you will recall, I do not mix cockiness with serious answers in my posts.
You just got it.
No sh!t Sherlock. What next, you're going to tell me AirTrain JFK might end up working out alright, but we should wait 6 months to see "if the trains are full" before making a decision?
If you want to limit yourself to Subtalk, that's fine.
Where did I say this?
If you want to limit yourself to posting pictures on your other website
Where did I say this?
Some of us choose to do more. And you can, too.
More what? BULLSHITTING to boost your ego? Unbelievable. Then again, if it comes from RonIsBS, anything can happen.
Up to you.
Up yours with a splintery 2x4.
However, if I assumed a lot of specific awareness on your part that wasn't there, I apologize.
OK: Old Tom, who lives in the Los Angeles area, posted a great idea for an insured Metrocard. I adapted his post, taking into consideration a lot of different posts in the resulting thread, and wrote to MTA proposing that they implement it. Coincidentally, MTA actually asked for public input on it, and provided a webpage to do it. Iwrote directly to the Chairman's office, with copies to my contacts in govt and community relations. The Metrocard insurance plan that was finally adopted was not Old Tom's, but his was on the table under consideration as one of the realistic options. He was not the only one to come up with this idea; the Straphangers had a version they were pushing, and so did other people. But the MTA did implement a form of insurance based on what it heard rom the public, and some of us who have been at it long enough have built up some credibility at the agency. My letters get read and the replies I receive clearly indicate somebody took me seriously. This didn't happen overnight. I have a file drawer full of letters from different offices at MTA; they were very helpful when I asked for information connected to my discussion of the R44 subway speed record (I called Gene Sansone's office, got a prompt and very gracious reply, and that helped me when I wrote the piece about that in this site's rolling stock section).
The 63rd street service plan contains a couple of elements which I put together, based in part on discussions initiated here on this board. Correspondence back from the MTA was positive, and I continued to push these ideas at the public hearing when no one else at the podium did. Correspondence to me was very favorable.
Subsequently, MTA agreed to link 59th St with 63rd St by Metrocard (free transfer) and agreed to work on integrating subway transfer points in Long Island City. I pushed for ADA upgrades there; MTA began with a moving sidewalk (now installed) and I have learned that ADA upgrade work has begun or is now approved and about to begin (I believe at Queensborough Plaza, but I could be wrong on the precise station).
Somewhat earlier I proposed on this board that MTA could consider sending the G to a new lower level terminal at Queens Plaza, but posters on this board pointed out that the grade of ramp required would be prohibitively steep. I am certain somebody brought this up to MTA and they shot it down too ( same reason, plus cost).
Satisfied?
Not necessarily. I see no correlation between the price of one's airline ticket and one's propensity to use transit to the airport, excep that people with the highest-priced tickets may tend to have more luggage - if they've got enough luggage, AirTrain would be a relatively unattractive option even if it were free.
Don't forget that a significant percentage of JFK users are foreign visitors to the United States. By and large, they're more accustomed to using transit than are Americans and therefore may be drawn to AirTrain.
That's a very sound point. O.K., I'm untypical because I'm a railfan, but I *always* use public transit to and from airports wherever it exists, and if there is a choice of modes I'll use the rail mode.
And incidentally, $7 for the Airtrain + subway trip to the CBD is comparable with, or cheaper than, the public transit fares I've paid at several airports recently. From memory: Auckland, New Zealand - bus at about US7.80; Melbourne, Australia - bus at about US$17.60; Sydney, Australia, very comparable with Airtrain, in that there is a "gate charge" to get on to the Airport train station platform, of about US$5.40, on top of the normal train fare for the distance. And in London the Piccadilly Line costs about US$6 for a single fare, though you can get a daily unlimited ticket at about $10.00 that will give you all of London's public transit for the rest of the day as well. The "premium" Heathrow Express costs about US$23 one way to Paddington.
Wellington, NZ, which I used several times because I was living there - the airport bus is a bargain at about US$2.70, but then it is small city and the airport is very close. And as a bonus, the bus goes through a private, single-lane tunnel reserved for buses only - originally built as a tram (streetcar) tunnel - on the way to the airport!
Not to mention the fact that Heathrow Express riders are likely to have to pay for further transit once they reach Paddington, as it seems like the most off-the-beaten-path of the London mainline stations.
A man after my own heart. Bully for you!
The question is not transit in general -- it's the Howard Beach - shuttle bus connection. Who used it, and do they have realistic options currently?
AirTrain might well be a useful option for the family. Far, far more useful than the horrible shuttle buses.
Is your real name Clarence?*
*Teacher says, everytime a bell rings an angel gets his wings.
Not really. The relevant question is the elasticity of demand on AirTrain. By May-June of this year, will ridership meet the PA's projections?
Will it exceed them? If so, should the PA's operator, Bombardier, seek to increase the fare to higher than $5 to maximize revenue and reduce crowding?
If ridership fails to meet projections by May, what lower fare would be required to bring ridership up and move up the price/demand curve until the point of maximum ridership or maximum revenue (not always the same point) is reached.
"Too bad we'll never find out, since the two never operated at the same time. "
Actually, false. If AirTrain's ridership by May is higher than the free shuttle's ridership was, averaged over several years, then the direct comparison isn't necessary. One can then continue to collect data over the next few years.
Also, there is a comparison to be made with existing bus services. Public buses still run from subway stations to JFK (the Q10 comes to mind as one example) and these do compete with AirTrain. Granted, you have to get off at different subway stops to use them, but the fact remains that subway-bus services still exist to the airport and you can measure their ridership and compare them to AirTrain.
By and large, nobody except for a few sub-buffs on this chat site cares at all about the Shuttle buses. But if it makes you happy to bemoan their loss, feel free...I'm not stopping you.
False.
What's funny is that you don't realize that you're still not addressing the issues that I raised. I never expressed concern that the Port Authority isn't maximizing its profits.
No you haven't.
You've long ago stopped having a reasoned discussion about this. You've just been posting for its own sake.
No he [we] hasn't [haven't].
I meant - Yes, a premium service -- the Airtrain, that is.
Yes, there will always be a way to get to JFK for a single subway fare, but it will always be a lot more cumbersome than the standard way that existed until December 17, 2003 at 2pm, when it was replaced by a premium-priced service.
As I've said repeatedly, ten bucks, when compared to a JFK air fare, is scarcely a premium. It's a drop in the bucket.
Wrong, it is the ONLY service to the terminals from the Howard Beach-JFK Airport subway stop. A service can not be "premium" if there is nothing to evaluate it against. Häagen-Dazs claims to be a premium ice cream because it compares itself to other ice cream brands. The Howard Beach leg of the AirTrain can not compare itself to any other service. The whole point of the service is to bring people from the subway to the airport. There was a service that did that, the free shuttle buses, but they no longer exist. The shuttle buses certainly were not "premium," unless you count "walking" from the subway stop to the terminals to be the "standard" option. But even so, like the free shuttle bus, "walking" is no longer an option. So the Howard Beach leg of the AirTrain is not a premium service.
And in some places you cannot buy the other brands. I suppose that if you are in such a place, Haagen-Daz becomes "ordinary."
"The shuttle buses certainly were not "premium," unless you count "walking" from the subway stop to the terminals to be the "standard" option."
Now you're being inconsistent.
Had the shuttle buses still been running, certainly the AirTrain woould have been "premium" in price and speed to terminals. The disappearance of the buses does not reduce the price or level of service on AirTrain - so it is still "premium" from that point of view.
Then why do express buses cost twice as much to ride as express subways?
I'd think...probably. To be able to bypass adjacent highway traffic that is going to the same destination, hence enabling an earlier arrival could also be considered a "premium". Even without a directly parallel transit service to compete with, the intrinsic "value that implies a `premium' level of service" of the AirTrain cannot be dismissed. At least from Jamaica LIRR.
Bingo!
The Jamaica leg replaces a $5 bus service that ran on the traffic-clogged Van Wyck Expressway.
The Howard Beach leg replaces a poorly operated free bus service that ran through a string of parking lots.
No. Find me a place that only sells Haagen-Dazs. And even if you do, I'm sure there are other stores nearby that sell other brands.
Now you're being inconsistent.
No I'm not. You're just being RonIsBS.
Had the shuttle buses still been running, certainly the AirTrain woould have been "premium" in price and speed to terminals.
Yes, it would be "premium" overall, too. By the way, you need to use a spell checker.
The disappearance of the buses does not reduce the price or level of service on AirTrain - so it is still "premium" from that point of view.
No, you still don't get it (what else is new?). It is no longer premium because there is nothing to compare it against! Let me say that a few more times.
It is no longer premium because there is nothing to compare it against!
It is no longer premium because there is nothing to compare it against!
It is no longer premium because there is nothing to compare it against!
It is no longer premium because there is nothing to compare it against!
It is no longer premium because there is nothing to compare it against!
As to the rest:
As long as there was a recent alternative, premium still applies. Even if that alternative is no longer available.
Repeat after me:
Premium still applies.
Premium still applies.
Premium still applies
No. But I hear you started to agree with me in a later posting.
So are you al set to railfan the Manny B's northside and put photos on your site? Only 20 days to go.
Gee, looks like there is something to compare it against after all.
I did. You went off on a tangential rant which has become so much a trademark of yours. You don't seem to actually wish to discuss principles; you seem to assume them instead. That is absolutely fine by me, but it seems we wish to conduct utterly different discussions. You should stop claiming that you are talking about the same thing as me, as you even with this post have twisted matters subtly again.
It will make easier reading of course, if you post in a mature, adult fashion.
Will you please stop your de humano attacks? They are the single thing which has made you most unpopular on this board. I see at least one poster doesn't even try to take you seriously because of them and merely responds with abuse to your inflammatory posts. Perhaps you should have the maturity to be able to read different people's linguistic styles without going off onto stupid off-topic criticism.
Of couse, it's still not supported. You discount the very data that you need in order to form a conclusion. That brings you to the wrong place. Wait six months, then study the situation again. You could be dead-on (or not), but you'll never know if you don't do it.
My posts are not ad hominem attacks. I am reacting directly to your posts. I found the last couple childish. Stop doing that.
I hear the position of information minister for the Republic of Iraq is open. With comments like that, you'd be a shoo-in.
If you were really concerned about that, you'd fix your own posts. Fortunately, I use a clothespin over my nose so I can pass your stinky posts and just focus on the cool ones. :0)
So that explains why you can post such crap without fainting all the time.
Of course, because of his actions, Ron is the only SubTalker for whom I do not have a single shred of respect and he is the only SubTalker whom I can consider inferior to all others.
Kissed anysubway cars lately? :0)
I call B.S.!!!
All right, maybe he didn't kiss the Redbird. But he wanted to.
:0)
NO ONE LIKES YOU! LEAVE!
I see you've decided to take it off later.
Not wishing to be associated with fools, particularly those from Missouri, I'm terminating this argument.
While I completely agree with your position on the UK privatisation, James, I think you are not right on "quantity" - services have on average increased since privatisation. On "quality", of course, you are dead right.
You have zero to support that view - but you're entitled to it.
If you enjoy ranting about how government agencies are all incompetent, by all means. But you're implying you have nothing constructive to offer when you do that. AirTrain's barely been in business for a month - and how many times have you acrtually tried to use it? I don't think the PA's perfect but nobody there makes snap decisions like the one in your post, and I'm grateful for that.
Don't like being criticized? Tough. This is a public forum. Post something constructive and you'll get a different response.
I'm telling you, this is going to be the biggest flop in transit history.
I'm all for new lightrails being developed by not for 15 thousand passengers a month. The HBLR transport more than 15K a week! I hope it succeeds but Port Authority could have spent the money on building a lightrail elsewhere.
If PA built a second avenue lightrail they have 15 thousand passengers a day!
Thanks to the fare, the system is probably fully profitable and is able to amortize its capital construction costs. The PA does not receive subsidies.
However, there is insufficient data on AirTrain ridership now to make any conclusions. With five or six months behind it, some conclusions, good, bad or ugly, can be arrived at.
http://www.nynewsday.com/news/local/queens/nyc-nyair233641210jan25.story
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/west_midlands/3429243.stm
Mark
Better to iron them out now before regular service starts.
The store has also taken down its holiday train layout, and is in the process of setting up its next exhibit.
Chuck Greene
I am still dying to know who is the new 5 train voice, as well as who is the voice of the 4.
Umm... AFAIK, she's alive and well, selling real estate for Douglas Elliman.
Not really. Get on any northbound (5) train that shows this text as its destination:
TO E'CHESTER-DYRE
Here are some of my favorite pictures that I've taken at night so far.
Exposure times range from 1/8 to 2 seconds.
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
1. Rest the camera on something (or use a tripod). Don't hold it no matter how steady you think you are.
2. Use the time release shutter. Don't press the button to initiate a long exposure.
3. Avoid moving targets!
"Avoid moving targets!"
I'm still workin on that last one, heh.
It's not an unreasonable conclusion to say that eventually Long Island will reach the point where diesel dual-mode locomotives providing sparse one-seat rides to Manhattan will not be enough to keep potential passengers off the LIE. Thus eventually Long Island Railroad is going to have to extend their electrification beyond the current ends of the 3rd rail in Ronkonkoma, Babylon and Huntington. The simplest and most obvious way to do this is simply to run 3rd rail further out onto the island to provide this service.
However, 3rd rail has several severe flaws. For one it's inefficient transmitting power over any appreciable distance, that goes back to the fights between Edison and Tesla, and we all must know who won, since we all have 120 volt sockets in the wall. Of course this limitation in transmitting high voltage DC over long distances means that you'll have to erect many substations along the ROW to ensure that the transmission losses over the distance between the substation and train do not restrict the speed of the train. Secondly the prospect of a gapping in any sort of yard or junction severely limits the usefulness of a locomotive being powered by 3rd rail. And thirdly the 3rd rail is very difficult to keep cleared of snow in the winter, a large amount of snow will cause the train to lose power while on the rail. Of course this third reason is why the MBTA Blue line elected to use trolley catenary overhead for their aboveground section near the water. The same logic would likely apply to the extension of the LIRR electrification to the tip of LI, in Greenport or Montauk the likelyhood of the weather disrupting service would be greater than back at the relatively calm areas in Queens and such.
Given these 3 problems, especially the first, it can be concluded that it's a less than great idea to continue the 3rd rail all the way to Greenport or Montauk. Now, of course 25kv catenary, the other quite obvious solution to electrifying to the eastern tip of LIRR's system, has none of those restrictions, it's easily transmitted over long distances, cannot have gapping problems except where power sources change, and also has none of the problems in the winter that a 3rd rail powered train would encounter. Since it's taking power from the overhead, so long as train service remains consistent enough to keep the ice or even icecles from building up on the catenary, and with both pantographs up that time can be quite long.
Unfortunately the people in the subchats have informed me that I cannot go around ripping up 3rd rail and replacing it with catenary, no matter how much sense it makes. So I guess they'll still have to have dual-mode equipment, just with a change in voltage rather than some sort of jury-rigged diesel electric system. Of course this change has been done in Europe in freight locomotives for more than 30 years, in the form of locomotives capable of running on 1.5kv DC and 25kv@50hzAC lines. The latest of these locomotives is the German Class 189 electric freight locomotive, a decendant of the wildly successful 101 design, which is capable of running on 1.5kv and 3kv DC, as well as 15kv@50hz and 25kv@50hz AC power. Of course another decendant of the Class 101 is the ALP46, based off the Class 185, and which has proven itself in daily service with NJT. The only changes a 3rd rail capable ALP46 would need would be the DC capability of the Class 189 with an adaptation for 750vdc and shoes for 3rd rail.
The operation would be straightforward, the Metro-North MUs have been seamlessly changing between 3rd rail and catenary for some 30 or 40 years now, and there's no reason that an ALP48 couldn't do the same. From Huntington, Ronkonkoma, and Babylon west would all be catenary powered at 25kv. They'd run on 25kv until reaching one of those 3 places and make the changeover to 3rd rail. Of course 3rd rail cannot deliver the same amount of power as 25kv Catenary, so the ALP48 will pull less when taking power off the rail. I don't know the exact equation, but I do know that the ICE-3M in germany develops 8000kw total and can do 220mph on 15kv or 25kv, but only 4000kw and is restricted to 140mph when taking 1.5kv or 3kv DC. For this reason it would be a bad idea to have the ALP48 pulled trains make all the local stops on the 3rd rail, they could but the performance would likely be little better than the DE/DM30AC trains. Eventually for this reason it'd only make sense to run 25kv over some of the exsisting 3rd rail to Hicksville on the PJ branch, as well as possibly over the new Ronkonkoma 3rd rail. However it'd likely be a long time until the 3rd rail down the LIRR main line would be torn up and replaced with 25kv cat, so long as the ALP48s don't have to make all the local stops, then there's no reason to exert themselves and no reason to have any more power.
Jamaica might present gapping problems, it'd make sense to run Amtrak's 11.5kv to that station to prevent this problem, and it'd allow Amtrak or NJT to turn a few Clocker trains at Jamaica without having to have a complicated or time consuming power change at New York Penn. However, pulling into New York Penn Station would be where the new electric locomotives would shine. No longer would LIRR have to place locomotives on both ends of the train to keep them from gapping on the crossovers and switches approaching NYP, since at that point it would be taking power from the cat and thus be immune to the imperfections of the 3rd rail.
These electric locomotives would provide better service in general than the current fleet of diesel-electric dual mode equipment. They'd allow LIRR to run trains into the city whenever they can be scheduled, no longer would they have to worry that it might sponanteously combust, or fail to switch over to diesel upon leaving the tunnel.
In the next 20 years there can be no doubt that LIRR must seriously consider changing their operations in the western portion of Long Island. If they do not, then they will find themselves passed by, unable to cope with the number of riders on the Greenport Shuttles and thus those people living out there will instead attempt to drive in on the LIE. Given the costs of building and expanding roads, it must be true that even an expensive 3rd rail extension with all the substations as well as the heavy 3rd rail to be installed would be cheaper than expanding those highways. However, I'm certain that the installation of 25kv cat, with 1 or 2 substations for the entire length of the extension would be cheaper still.
That is, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."
Which also speaks to the issue of unfinished business that needs funding.
Two lines in the schedule doesn't provide evidence that the LIRR was "stupid to electrify" or that the "LIRR coulda run frequent service wit a diesel fleet." The pollution put out by frequent diesel service alone should put down proposals for frequent diesel service.
That is the wrong comparison. It should be frequent diesel service vs. frequent electric service.
Diesels aren't exactly maitenance proof, you also have to pay for fuel, some 1500 gallons of diesel per day. Indeed, certainly the maitnenance on the locomotives would be lower, since an electric train has less vibration and such which would loosen fittings. The only thing higher is the cost for maintaining the catenary. As I understand it modern constant tension catenary structures are the closest thing to zero-maitenance yet devised, adding little to the maitnenance ontop of the cost of maintaining the track.
...turning everything over to electric is gonna overload the powerplants.
You're talking about fewer than 50 trains per day, LIPA's not going to go down from a few more trains out on the rails. In fact if they used 25kv then the transmission losses would be less than for a 750vdc 3rd rail power supply, thereby making the system less of a load on the powerplants. If it's really that big a deal than LIRR could take a page from NYCTA's L line regeneration system and try to install that at key positions along the LIRR tracks to ease the loading of the system on the powerplants.
I say stick with diesel except where 3rd rail is necesary(east river tunnels)
Have you seen what every other civilized country does? They ALL have extensive electric railways, because they recognize the clear advantage electric locomotives hold over diesel powered trains. Long Island railroad would collapse if it had to run the same number of people it carries today in a wholely diesel operation with dual mode trains into Manhattan.
Plus, I think we have a lot more electric capacity than we do water. Or at least that's my circumstances.
Your last sentence sounds a little like the arguments for bus rapid transit.
Anyway, the LIRR got what they wanted with the electric. They cut the running time from Ronkonkoma dramatically (by up to 35 minutes, IIRC) and gave everyone a through trip to Penn. This exploded ridership, enabled them to build substantial parking in undeveloped areas, and economically helped the downscale communities along the line.
They were also dealing with effective NIMBYs on PJ, and the lack of space for more parking on both PJ and PD branches.
Plus, it was rediculous that all LIRR service in Suffolk County of any consequence was on the extreme north and south shores. KO competes directly with the LIE.
Because you said "Cars wit low level boardin woulda saved them time and a load of money". The essential argument for BRT says that it's as good as LRT, but faster and cheaper to build.
Frequent diesel service on a double-tracked line, with quick and easy transfers at Jamaica or Hicksville, also would work very well. Sure, the Alpha Males would have to drag their suit-covered anuses five feet across the platforms to change trains, but - miracle of miracles! - they'd survive.
It was a horrible choice. Electrifying the Ronkonkoma line lead to grotesque overcrowding while at the same time leaving the Port Jefferson and Montaul lines sadly underused.
I concur. I grew up in East Meadow. The stations we used were Hempstead and Country Life on the Hempstead Branch, Merrick on the Babylon branch, and Westbury on the Main Line. The Main Line in those days was all diesel east of Mineola. Yet Westbury was definitely the most reliable station. Non rush hour trains came every half hour, half from Port Jeff and half from Ronkonkoma. Hempstead and Merrick were every hour then. The main line usually had an awful lot more cars on their trains, even longer than the Jamaica platform. Nobody complained about the trains being diesel or changing at Jamaica. Many people on those trains got the "7" at Hunterspoint or LIC.
The diesels provided excellent service then and there were more trains to Port Jefferson as Huntington was not a terminal, all trains went to P.J.
CG
CG
Ah yes, the much vaunted example of your incredibly bad knowledge of statistics.
I suppose you should consider that Trenton on the NEC runs 11 minute 25 second headways AVERAGE over the course of the NJT peak hours. In the 2 hours and 40 minutes from the 6:12 departure to the 8:42 departure 14 trains leave the stationand and that is with Amtrak trains and SEPTA trains to work around. At some points trains are leaving within 3 minutes of each other, so I could still claim electric trains are capable of running at 1/4 the headway of diesel trains. But that's a meaningless number, completely unsupported by statistics, so lets leave it at 28 minutes average for PJ and 11 minutes on the Trenton line for NJT. And there's much much more, 19 min 21 seconds for the Ronk line (3hr 33min with 11 trains), 10min 25 seconds for the Babylon Line (3hr 39min with 21 trains), 9 minutes 50 seconds on the M&E (2hrs 40 minutes with 13 trains, of which 4 are diesel trains). All of this means that your much vaunted PJ line 12 minute headway which is itself terrible statistics is more than overshadowed by peak headways on other electric operations.
That's not very good "proof". I could similarly "prove" that because LIRR trains close in very close to each other at Jamaica that means that trains can operate safely within 50' of one another and this should routinely be done. Also note that even if this "proof" did stand it doesn't "prove" what SHOULD happen only what can happen, which really doesn't matter because it doesn't happen.
As long as you're introducing evidence of your "proof" I will too. The Times did a profile of the city of Glen Cove and included a comment on diesel vs. electric service. http://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/16/realestate/16LIVI.html?ex=1075438800&en=53a325803d554f64&ei=5070
"There are three Long Island Rail Road stations within the city boundaries — Glen Cove, Glen Street and Sea Cliff — but the line, on the railroad's Oyster Bay division is not electrified and service is by diesel.
"Some residents make private arrangements to secure parking spaces in Manhasset to ride on the Port Washington branch, whose frequently scheduled electric trains whoosh to the city in little more than half an hour. It takes about 20 minutes to drive to Manhasset."
Manhasset is on the single-track portion of the Port Washington line but electrified.
"Who knows, maybe they can run every 3."
Maybe not.
That is, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."'
I'm not saying to replace anything, at least not immediately. I'm merely providing an option for a future extension of electric trains in LI that could prove to be more economical than the use of 3rd rail in the electrification of the diesel lines (which is bound to someday happen). In fact, the reason I didn't just jump on the idea of a M-9 car MU car based on the M-8 with 25kvAC and 600vdc pickups was that the ALP48s would be able to pull the C-3 and C-R cars, thereby limiting the capital expenditure to get the system operational.
Now you are just talking crazy, tell me, where is the diesel engine with a 10000hp short time overload? How about 8000 continuous? I didn't think so, heck, you'd need 3 of those DM30ACs to even equal that amount of power. Despite all appearances a tiny AEM7 locomotive is much more powerful than a F40PH, developing some 5000 more horsepower, and probably on the order of 100,000 tons of tractive effort. I'd suggest you check this website, which completely belies your argument.
No worries bout all this 3rd rail type and coversion to cat BS
It'd never be a problem if LIRR could have just upgraded back when the Pennsy electrified their mainline at 11.5kv. But even then, a 750vdc-25kv dual-voltage would be much more reliable than a 750vdc-Diesel dual mode locomotive, since the dual-voltage/dual source locomotive would be almost completely solid state. Whereas the diesel engine in a DM gives a large chance of not catching and leaving the train stranded at the end of the 3rd rail, like some kind of castrated EMU.
Old proposals, recently reconsidered, is light rail from Oyster Bay to Far Rockaway, but LIRR is 100% hostile to this, under their own management or other management.
Anyway, third rail electric is already in LIRR capital plans ending 2017 to Yaphank and Speonk.
Within 20 years, linear motors like those under the Airtrains will be proven in practice. Why build out-of-date catenary, with all of its problems, when we know that the LIMs will fit between the rails and not interfere with the other voltage pickup systems?
Currently there ARE problems with the switchover from 3rd rail to catenary at Mt Vernon (not often). And the Amtrak equipment keeps tangling up at New Rochelle. Why perpetuate it?
you forgot that we're living on earth and there's certain business issues, which become magnified when it comes to public operations(people become way to nosey at this point)
Just like in engineering, in business there's equations and all that to figure out opportunity costs and cost effectiveness.
Overheads work great IMO. And like you said, what's the point of putting in more substations and rails that are prone to weather. The thing is, in a cost model, will LIRR see any significant cost savings and increased ridership in the long or mid-term? Or can they scrape by with no problem. It's amazing how cheap and inefficient most business' are and the backwards things a lot of them do when you're working for them(ie dilbert comics are good satires). Why do you think there's so many lawsuits out there? Some manager decides he doesn't want to spend the few hundred dollars to fix something that's dangerous and someone get's hurt, happens everyday.
When it comes to capital investments, you really have to have the right management who will see a big long term gain. Because if not, and it's working fine this week, it ain't happening.
Btw, is the dual mode equpiment they use, like dualmode buses and Jet-train, where the diesel engine is just powering an alternator powering an electric motor?
The best commute I've ever had was on heavy rail using overhead lines. But engineering students should have to take some sociology and business classes to be as well rounded as the rest of us. :)
You need some hard $$ numbers in efficiency and future gain/investments and so on to present your case. And it's even more important when you do it with the idiot public who frankly I think is clueless. Then you need some good wholesome propaganda.
I presume the diesel-to-motor systems I'm looking at power the wheels on the locomotive only.
Overhead carenary costs lots and lots of $$$$. The few times a year when ice could be a problem is not worth it to install 3rd rail for that reason. You know that you can get third rail heaters that melt the ice and snow? PATCO has them installed at several key locations.
The operation would be straightforward, the Metro-North MUs have been seamlessly changing between 3rd rail and catenary for some 30 or 40 years now, and there's no reason that an ALP48 couldn't do the same. From Huntington, Ronkonkoma, and Babylon west would all be catenary powered at 25kv. They'd run on 25kv until reaching one of those 3 places and make the changeover to 3rd rail. Of course 3rd rail cannot deliver the same amount of power as 25kv Catenary, so the ALP48 will pull less when taking power off the rail. I don't know the exact equation, but I do know that the ICE-3M in germany develops 8000kw total and can do 220mph on 15kv or 25kv, but only 4000kw and is restricted to 140mph when taking 1.5kv or 3kv DC. For this reason it would be a bad idea to have the ALP48 pulled trains make all the local stops on the 3rd rail, they could but the performance would likely be little better than the DE/DM30AC trains. Eventually for this reason it'd only make sense to run 25kv over some of the exsisting 3rd rail to Hicksville on the PJ branch, as well as possibly over the new Ronkonkoma 3rd rail. However it'd likely be a long time until the 3rd rail down the LIRR main line would be torn up and replaced with 25kv cat, so long as the ALP48s don't have to make all the local stops, then there's no reason to exert themselves and no reason to have any more power.
I think that you should stick with straight DC operation with push-pull trainsets. First, the existing MU fleet would get to ply all of the territory for added flexibility. Second, 3rd rail is cheaper to install and maintain. Third, power is not really too much of an issue. Back in the day the LIRR had no problem handeling 4400hp DD-1 electric locomotives. Today it can 14 car MU trains of between 500 and 750 hp per car.
Jamaica might present gapping problems, it'd make sense to run Amtrak's 11.5kv to that station to prevent this problem, and it'd allow Amtrak or NJT to turn a few Clocker trains at Jamaica without having to have a complicated or time consuming power change at New York Penn. However, pulling into New York Penn Station would be where the new electric locomotives would shine. No longer would LIRR have to place locomotives on both ends of the train to keep them from gapping on the crossovers and switches approaching NYP, since at that point it would be taking power from the cat and thus be immune to the imperfections of the 3rd rail.
At JAY and HALL you can have a gap team that can run out with the gap pole if a train gets stuck. At PENN you can appease Amtrak with a variety of operational restrictions. First, they could only run through the LIRR tunnels and platform at the dedicated LIRR platforms. Second, the trains would have to push into Penn station so that a train would never get stopped on the grade right before C interlocking. Third, you could have them enter only on certain signal indications that allow the train to get up enough steam to coast through the gap.
Given the costs of building and expanding roads, it must be true that even an expensive 3rd rail extension with all the substations as well as the heavy 3rd rail to be installed would be cheaper than expanding those highways. However, I'm certain that the installation of 25kv cat, with 1 or 2 substations for the entire length of the extension would be cheaper still.
Remember, the added cost of cat installation will meet or exceed the cost of extra DC substations. Second, DC substations are a much smaller maintainence burden than overhead wire maintainence wise.
True. However, third-rail is far superior in conditions that lead to downed wires (extreme temperature changes, winds and so on.
There is currently 3rd rail all the way in from Southeast (= Brewster North) to GCT. This morning's 7:09 arrival at GCT from Southeast was only 2 minutes late despite 9" of snow (I know, because I ride the same train outbound at 7:23).
If 3rd rail can work quite well to the snowy reaches of Putnam County, why can't it work to Montauk?
Made up for by being much easier and cheaper to maintain.
Of course this limitation in transmitting high voltage DC over long distances means that you'll have to erect many substations along the ROW to ensure that the transmission losses over the distance between the substation and train do not restrict the speed of the train.
DC substations are way cheaper than AC substations.
Secondly the prospect of a gapping in any sort of yard or junction severely limits the usefulness of a locomotive being powered by 3rd rail.
Admittedly that is the major problem with 3rd and 4th rail systems. However, if you are running 3-car EMUs or longer, this tends not to be an issue.
And thirdly the 3rd rail is very difficult to keep cleared of snow in the winter, a large amount of snow will cause the train to lose power while on the rail.
You're talking about a lot of snow (or very low frequency trains, when electrification really wouldn't be economic anyway) before that's a problem. In fact, it's the kind of amount of snow that would bring catenary down: then no train could get through, not even a diesel one.
Remember also, that higher voltage catenary is more susceptible to weather as it is made of thinner flimsier wire. In fact, the only form of OHLE which is likely to stand up to real extremes of weather throughout is 1,500V DC, where you get the same voltage drop problems as 3rd rail anyway, but with the added maintenance issues of the tension of the wire and its being way up in the air. Basically, you should forget about catenary except for systems with street running sections or for lines where speed is so high that third rail shoes risk becoming welded to the rail.
WASHINGTON - Delays on Metro Tuesday afternoon are expected to be as long as the morning commute, possibly longer, as the subway deals with icy conditions and fewer rail cars in operation.
Metro officials say that the number of trains available Tuesday afternoon will be reduced significantly on some lines. On the Orange Line, only 54 percent of the trains Metro normally runs will be available. The Red and Yellow Lines will run at 73 percent and 71 percent capacity, respectively. About 90 percent of the trains that run on the Blue and Green Lines will run.
The Orange Line is where Metro's oldest rail cars operate, while the Blue and Green Lines are where the newest rail cars are.
It took thousands of commuters hours to get to work Tuesday morning as the rail tracks iced over, forcing Metro to reduce the number of trains and to run trains on a single track for part of the morning. Delays of more than 40 minutes were reported throughout the morning as the rail system ran at 70 percent capacity with four-car trains running on the Orange, Yellow and Red lines.
"We are having problems where we have tracks outdoors," Metro spokeswoman Leona Agouridis tells WTOP.
Metro had Orange Line trains using a single track between the New Carrollton and Stadium-Armory stations and on the Blue Line from the Addison Road station to the Stadium-Armory station. Single tracking ended just before 10 a.m.
Earlier, an inbound Yellow Line train with passengers on board got stuck on the bridge over the Potomac between the Pentagon and L'Enfant Plaza. Metro says a power problem was to blame. Service was restored a short time after the 8 a.m. problem.
"We're going to have situations like this, unfortunately, on and off throughout the day as the icing continues," Agouridis said. "We're doing our best to clean the tracks between trains."
In addition to ice on the tracks, Metro is having problems with slush from commuters' shoes and boots building up in the doorways of the trains, keeping them from closing. Rail operators are not permitted to run trains out of stations if they don't get a positive closing light from all of the doors in a train set.
Metro buses have been running but ice and unplowed snow have kept them off side streets.
I'd like to know who said the Orange line had the oldest cars? It has CAF cars assigned to it while the Red has none whatsoever.
Chuck Greene
And besides that, what difference does the age of the car make? It's pretty obvious that the problems are ice, ice, and more ice.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Nos. 904, 921, 922 and 950 - Will operate according to the regular schedule.
No. 901 - Will operate according to the "holiday" schedule. In addition, trip #25 will operate.
No. 902 - Will operate according to the "holiday" schedule.
No. 903 - Trip #6, 8, and 10 will operate.
No. 905 - Will operate according to the "holiday" schedule. In addition, trip #20 will operate.
No. 907 - Trip #9, 11, 14 and 16 will operate.
No. 909 - Trip #6, 8 and 10 will operate.
No. 915 - Will not operate.
No. 929 - Will operate on a "holiday" schedule. There will also be additional service on trips #120 and 104 from the Silver Spring Metro Station only.
No. 991 - Will operate on a "holiday" schedule. The mid-day trip #718 will also operate today.
No. 995 - Trips #510, 518, 524, 520 and 508 will operate this afternoon.
Most of the posts on Subtalk are being made by the semi-intelligent residents of 76th st. The reason it's so slow today is that the polar ice cap at 76th street has finally reached us.
George W. Bush tried to fund a mission to 76th Street, but Rumsfeld FINALLY told him he was nuts. There is no immediate danger we will be found.
What if the Mole People in 76 St have Weapons of Mass Destruction?
It seems that life on Mars is more likely to exist.
When the Mars rover turns up a little plaque saying, "Mayor 'Red' Hylan ... don't let the bastards get you down," we'll know that it was global warming and not volcanos that wrecked Mars.
--Mark
I already gave my bookie $1000 betting on life on Mars.
I have a terrible pain in all the diodes down my left side!
Until proff of either is supplied.
Also, on a related note...a question: Does the bus that circles the island still cost a dime? If so, why bother?
Rich
The roosevelt island operating authority is a NYS owned entity
And your evidence that it is subsidized by NYS taxes is what?
Genuinely curious. Don't know the answer myself.
On the bus; the tram is $2, payable by NYCTA token.
Why would NYCTA come out with a new token only for use on the RIOC Tram?
Chuck Greene
In the U.S., "tram" typically refers to a vehicle that runs on overhead cable.
Jeez... not only do you drive on the wrong side of the road, your trams are on the ground and cable cars are in the air! :)
The full term is aerial tramway.
Almost all the others in the world are used to transport skiers and summer sightseers.
One reason is that the subway at Roosevelt Island doesn't stop at 2nd Ave. The Tram does and it's convent for all entertainment establishments on the East Side.
Bill "Newkirk"
Sorry, fear of heights. :P
It's not extensive, but here is a poster I'd remembered seeing at the Urban Bookstore on 50th and Madison and double-checked last night. There's one for TriBeCa on this site, too.
The axonometric view is a great help, and it gives a good impression of where the highest densities are.
There is a very high density stretch along Sixth Avenue north of 42 Street, in addition to the very dense areas to the east.
One can also see some relatively low density areas in the foreground, and near the Empire State Building.
Chuck Greene
Queens Blvd was planned in 1911. There was an article in the New York times showing a rendering of the future road with multi-story buildings (with the architecture of the time) alongside as an example of the grand gateway to Queens that the boulevard was envisioned as.
Do you know where this rendering can be found? If I've got to hit the library, do you remember what date the article is from?
I seem to remember that the answer was something to do with it being over a prominent boulevard or parkway....in similar fashion, look at the #2 line where it crosses Pelham Parkway, it's not your ordinary plain girder elevated structure there.
The following structures seemed to meet that category:
- The Queens Blvd viaduct, as was already pointed out
- Ocean Parkway station of the Brighton Line
- Ft Hamilton Pkwy and Bay Parkway (short stretch over Bay Pkwy, anyway) on the West End Line
- Mosholu Parkway on the IRT Woodlawn Line
- Pelham Parkway on the White Plains Road Line
Does anyone remember if Ft Hamilton Pkwy on the Culver Line was a concrete structure?
One exception that comes to mind very quickly is Woodhaven Blvd on the Jamaica Ave EL - I recall that the station is standard dual contracts steel.
Also, here's an odd exception - there is evidence that the bridge over Jerome Ave on the Polo Grounds Shuttle (9th Ave El) at the Jerome/Andersen Ave station was a concrete structure that was quite similar to the Queens Blvd viaduct of the IRT Flushing Line. What was so special about that crossing? The El structure after the station, joining the Jerome Ave El, was standard dual-contracts ....
--Mark
The standard steel structure continues over FHP, it is not concrete. FHP is not a real parkway anyway, it was only renamed that to prevent confusion with Hamilton Avenue.
Does anyone remember if Ft Hamilton Pkwy on the Culver Line was a concrete structure?
Probably not, but I wouldn't know.
One exception that comes to mind very quickly is Woodhaven Blvd on the Jamaica Ave EL - I recall that the station is standard dual contracts steel.
It is in fact a concrete structure.
Since the LIRR was at grade level before the viaduct was built, it was elevated with the intention of the city to eventually to take it over for rapid transit use. Notice the current fare control mezzanines, just like the ones in the city "el"s, but concrete.
"Also why doesn't the MTA, and I have asked this a dozen of times repair it?"
Are you talking about the roadbed or stations ? If it's the stations, they are probably low on the list of rehabs, probably because of the light ridership.
Bill "Newkirk"
--Mark
- A Redbird train leaving Queensboro Plaza (Flushing-Bound)
- A Redbird train leaving Willets Point-Shea Stadium (Times Square-bound)
- An R142A train entering 51 Street (Brooklyn Bridge-City Hall-bound, I think)
- A Breda (or Rohr?) train entering Friendship Heights
- A Breda (or Rohr?) train leaving Friendship Heights
Your so-called "semi-sadist" was the person who made "proff" popular here. You are such a hypocrite.
Under the modified schedule, Amtrak will offer 30 Acela Express departures from Washington, New York and Boston instead of the normal 46. Trains #2190, 2150, 2104, 2164, 2118, 2103, 2153, 2173 and 2191 have been cancelled. Train #2151 will operate between New York and Washington, D.C. only, and train #2175 will only operate between Boston and New York.
Metroliner trains #113, 119, 123, 108, 110, 120 and 126 have also been cancelled.
Regional trains #185, 139 and 130 will also not operate.
Feedback is appreciated. Thanks in advance! :-)
If you have the large blue Port Jeff branch timetable, the train # at the bottom of each column is the key:
1200/1600/1700/2000/2300/2400 = MU train (single level coaches)
500/600/2700 = diesel train (double deckers)
This way you will know ahead of time what's running.
----------
Trains to Huntington from Penn are about a 50/50 shot between M-1 and M-3. If you're going to Roosevelt Field during the day, you'll probably have to change at Huntington for an electric train, or change at Hicksville for an electric train. All trains running from Port Jeff are diesel. You will then get off here at Mineola and hop an N22 to the mall (runs every 15 minutes).
Have fun, but don't be surprised if your trip is hell.
Taking LIRR from Jamaica to Mineola, and then catching the N22 to Roosevelt Field.
We contemplated on taking just the N22 the whole way but that would have taken much too much time.
Despite all the snow that's on the ground, my friends still want to go. My mom is showing some resistance and giving rather arcane reasoning on why I shouldn't go. I'm still going regardless of what she says.
I'll probably give you guys a trip report when I come back home tomorrow from a hopefully productive day outside of the house.
Saw a 27 southbound at Roslyn station
Some of my favs r the north/south runs like Wantagh-Hicksville, Massapequa (inc. Sunrise Mall)-Hicksville via Hicksville Rd/Broadway, and some, 2 me, oddball routes like the N3 and N95 (Farmingdale/Melville Shuttle).
But there other cool routes. I've mentioned the N15, which really does seem to run on a "city" schedule, like the N6. Ur a big fan of intermodality...N15 starts at an elevated railroad station, passes through dense residential districts, stops at a major transfer hub, and a railroad branch terminal, in a dense urban neighborhood, passes a college, approaches within a short walk to the busiest railroad station (Or the second busiest, after Hicksville) on the Island, Mineola, passes the courts and basically the civic center (think Nassaus' "City Hall") of the region, finishing up with a short stretch on a very urban boulevard and ending at a mega shopping district. Pretty good coverage.
I'd say the length of Hempstead Turnpike that the N70,N71, and N72 cover has the best suburban surface rapid transit in the entire region, if u compare it 2 any other areas that are not directly contingent with the NYC limits. Always a bus coming in a couple of minutes, it seems like. And it's a really good nexus for north/south routes. The route is the equivalent of the B41 bus going down Flatbush Avenue in Brooklyn. Or maybe the B35 is a closer analogy. U must have taken the N72 out to Bablylon. Try it at night and check out Republic Airport going down Rt. 110 to ur left. Wierd landing lights. That it extends into another county makes it a trunk line to me.
(One good thing about Nassau County, at least, generally south of the Long Island Expressway: most streets have sidewalks. Not much use lately, tru but when it gets cleared u really want those sidewalks.)
Yep, go busfan it. For years and years I used to hitchhike from Suffolk to Nassau to Queens to Brooklyn. This was like a learning experience 4 me. At one time or another I must have ridden almost every bus that has to cross the Southern, Northern, Sagtikos, Ocean, Wantagh, Meadowbrook, Cross Island, Laurenton, Belt, Grand Central, Interboro and Bethpage parkways. And the various expressway too. I'd get off at an exit and see what was cooking.
Same with the trains.
I like the intersection of Merrick Avenue and Jerusaleum Avenue. The Hempstead buses crossing the Merrick buses. Nothing spectacular about it, but it just seems very casually urbane in nature. It's a crossing of two good bus lines, with stops on four corners.
I really need to take a ride on some more lines. I really wanna try the N78(or is it the 79) to Walt Witman Mall. I'm probably gonna wind up mappin out a route for busfannin that I wanna do sometime. I'll post it and put up an invite for anyone who wants to come. It'll probably include a ride on GLI out to Islip, and some ST stuff.
The S54 from W.W.M. ain't bad either, goes out to Patchogue. And the Ronkonkoma rail has a number of bus routes, inexplicably having two routes, S57 and S59 starting and ending at the same places (Sayville/Smith Haven Mall) but taking different routes. Adds some rare redundancy if you're bound for the endpoints. So there is a minor bus hub located at this train station. Buses to Lake Grove, Sayville, Holbrook, Coram, Farmingville, Patchogue.
Probably gonna change tomarrow, lol.
The whole scheduling was really complicated. Either way, it seemed like I'd be forced to leave at around 3, which hardly meant any pay that I don't lose to transit fares(that's one reason I was plannin to bus it to Smithtown, rather than take the train from riverhead).
Well that reminds me why I'm so glad not to live on the north shore anymore. It's really hard to have a life if you dont have a car up there.
Here in Westbury the N22 runs till midnight and I'm by the LIRR which runs 24/7.
Unless...unless, you could have gotten a ride out to, say, one of the western terminals of the Riverhead buses. That would have made it plausible. But you would need the return ride after work.
What's needed is something I've thought about for years. A decent local/express Long Island Expressway service road bus line. And a serious implementation: At least 16/7/365. You could board it along the service road near where you live and take a local to the next express stop, and express out to Riverhead. At least, let's get a bus stopping at the park n' rides, between Little Neck Parkway and Riverhead, with a schedule that goes beyond what the Suffolk Clipper run gives us between Farmingville and Melville.
What's the Suffolk Clipper? Where's Farmingville?
Also, the trip TO work was about only 2 hrs, but comming home...well, let's just say I was better off sleeping there.
It was 7.50 an hr. Also, I probably would've been able to get a ride from riverhead to probably as far as KO, but other than that, I think I was pretty much SOL.
Back to the LIE bus system thing, gimme say...30 min, and I'll have sumtin up on bustalk, check it out.
Peace,
ANDEE
Unfortunately, NYS will not schedule a make up exam most likely. The kids will have to wait till June. Wait till this becomes public knowledge; especially since the snow while an inconvenience is certainly not one that a northern city like New York should have that much difficulty handling.
IMHO of course.
The schools are closed but us grunts are in (if you ain't UFT, your at work).
WEATHER ALERT FOR WEDNESDAY, JANUARY 28, 2004: All New York City Public Schools will be closed on Wednesday, January 28th, and all after school activities will be canceled. Regents examinations scheduled for Wednesday will not be administered. Additional information regarding the missed Regents examinations will be provided as soon as it is available. Tweed, Regional Offices, and all NYC Department of Education business offices will be open.
I had absolutely no trouble with my commute this morning. It could be because I left at 5:45, a half an hour earlier than usual. It could also be because everyone stayed home. As it happens, I work for the Department of Ed's central headquarters. They don't close for nothin'. We were open September 12, 2001 and the rest of that week despite the schools being closed. It's 10:06 AM and I'm virtually the only one on my floor.
By some miracle, a bus came immediately. I WAS fully prepared to walk the mile to the 7, which is pleasant to do on a summer morning, but surely would been difficult in the snow. But I did it for eight years before the free Metrocard transfer was introduced. We received some fearsome storms during that period, especially in '94 and '96.
The 7 seemed to be running decently. The first express normally doesn't leave Flushing till 6:40, so I just hopped the first local out at around 6:00. I saw many empty trains running Flushing-bound on the express tracks, probably getting ready to go into revenue service at Main. Don't morning expresses normally come from the yard before going into revenue service at Main? Anyway, the train was very empty, with very few people getting on the numerous local stops along the way. There are normally plenty of Corona and Jackson Heights riders before 6:00. At 5th Avenue, I switched for the F, which came immediately. It was similarly empty. The three-block walk from Jay Street to the office wasn't too bad. Sidewalks were for the most part shoveled.
While footing was somewhat treacherous, it was nothing close to the snow we received President's Day 2003 (Schools were closed that whole week anyway, much to the chagrin of students and teachers!) or even that weekend storm we got the weekend after Thanksgiving.
The mayor and chancellor are probably going to get killed for this. I was surprised that they even closed the schools after they did so for the heavily hyped March 2001 'blizzard' that turned out to be two inches. We just better hope we don't get hit with a bigger storm in February. Because after today's certain backlash, the authorities would be scared to death to close the schools again this winter- even if we get eight FEET.
But among the snow will always be the careless and stupid people running on outdoor platforms. They slip, they sue NYCT for no reason and NYCT loses or settles the lawsuit.
Of course the only reason the schools are closed is that the Mayor took some heat for what happened two weeks ago and did it for simply political reasons. If there were a real educator at the helm of the Board of Education rather than the lackey Klein, he or she might have realized the significance of closing schools on a Regents exam day and made a smarter decision.
The Catholic schools shut down even sooner than the public schools. I think a lot has to do with the teachers, and possibility of snow during rush hour. Most teachers live out in the 'burbs and don't take mass transit.
It may also be that the storm was over-hyped. I think it was a bigger deal up in the atnosphere (strong low pressure) than on the ground.
The forecast never called for a city stopping blizzard. When I watched the Weather Channel last night, their winter storm expert kept saying that while the storm would be a little inconvenient, in the scheme of things it was really not a big deal.
They called all along for 5 to 9 inches in the region with the city usually being on the low end. At no point was the severity of the storm really overstated except on the local news stations which had nothing big to report anyway.
I'm sorry, given the gravity of the Regents exams to many kids, I think in this case, and believe me I know I'm being a Monday morning quarterback, it was a mistake to close the high schools. I just don't think the seriousness of the reprecussions of this were clear to those who made the decision.
The reality is that based on past experience, there really was no need to close the schools as early as they did. It was done just for political reasons as the mayor took some flack over what happened on 15 January.
At least, the high schools should have opened to give students the opportunity to take the Regents exams.
For the most part, schools in the more affluent suburbs are less likely to be giving off track exams. That's just the reality of the way it is.
But give me a break...an 8 inch snow storm in a northern city like New York should be a little inconvenient but is certainly not in the scheme of things a major snow storm.
Does the Q currently relay in 57, using the crossover south of the station? Could it relay north?
I guess they can't write in the brochure that service operating beyond 57 crosses over at 34 so it won't be plugged by terminal congestion.
It was meant for those coming from/going to Astoria. Ditmars to Rock Center by way of 34 St is just silly.
Next s/b to 14 St, follow signs to 1, 2, 3, 9 uptown. Take whatever comes first to Times Sq and follow signs to A, C, E downtown. Take whatever comes first to 34/8.
Misses the point :)
ROTFLMAO!!!
Changing trains (from BMT to IND) at 34th street just to get to Rock Center is STOOPIT. It *IS* faster to ride to 49th street and WALK a block, than it is to transfer at 34th. You'd walk that same darn distance within that station and have to waid for another train besides.
The REAL reason for the 49th street stop is that only LOCAL tracks (north of 42nd Street) serve the 60th Street Tunnel, SINCE the Express tracks at 57th Street *are* being used as a terminal.
Get over it... That is the way the tracks are built!
Elias
Only those transferring from the N/W/R will be confused, since they can't tell which train would leave next. These people shoud transfer at Times Sq.
For the most part, right now, when the diamond-Q runs, it uses the NB track, and the circle-Q uses the SB track (on weekends, the circle-Q uses both). At 34th, the B uses the SB track and the D uses the NB track (the SB track is vacant on weekends).
What do you mean "wiil be"?
This arrangement has been going on ever since 1967, except for the times when there's been no express terminating at 57th at all.
As David says, people read the "next train" sign.
Tony
Now the Q uses 57/7 as a full time terminal so the N has to be on the local track above 34th st.
David
Besides, there should be enough service without having the "N" serving the 49th Street station.
N Broadway Line
Just like supposedly the reason they don't want the D to stop at DeKalb when the B is not running.
What a bunch of hypocrits. It's okay to provide extra service in Manhattan by switching a train but not in Brooklyn. The usual anti Brooklyn bias.
No more than the W presently does.
(Why do I say "roughly"? Because merging at 57th runs the risk of getting stuck behind a terminating Q. That leaves only 34th and Canal as practical options.)
The D and Q never have to merge.
These two lines have to merge at the Bridge side of Dekalb Ave between 11 PM to 5:30 PM (give or take an half hour or so.) because the D will be on the 4th Ave local track and cannot switch to Dekalb bypass.
The N has to merge with the R/W whether or not it stops at 49th.
Having the N stop at 49th doesn't add an extra merge. Having the D stop at DeKalb does.
It could if they wanted it to. They prefer to have the Q not relay, but come to a stop in the 57th St station on the express tracks and reverse direction there. That takes fewer crews, but prevents the express tracks from being used for through service.
The Q could relay north of 57th, but the only problem is that there would need to be somebody on the platform to escort stragglers off of the train before it can go north of 57th to relay. Now, if there was an N train (through) immediately behind a Q train (terminating), the process of ejecting passengers from the train could delay that N train.
We don't want that, now do we? It'd just be simpler to send the N local north of 34th Street.
That is why the Q terminates at 42nd st/TS if the R line G.O. forces to use the 63rd st tube. In that case, the R uses the Q tracks at 57/7 terminal in both directions before or after it switches to/from the regular local track.
Odd. Those switches were there on Monday at about 12:30pm. Has someone really taken them between then and now? And if they did, would 48 hours really qualify as "some time ago"?
Sorry for the misunderstanding.
The NB connection from express to local north of 57th is back in place as is the local to express connection on the SB side.
Is it somewhat redundent to have the ability to do that type of switching at both the north and south ends of the station? Probably, but it does add a bit of flexability in the event of a problem.
Example: an 71 St bound R train at 57th has a sick passenger and the train can't be moved. That blocks the N and W trains behind it. By having this extra switch they can run around the incident train. (This would mean that any Q train coming in on the uptown express track would have to relay north of the station).
Quite frankly I think that 57th/7th is most likely one of the most flexible stations in the system because of all the switches.
IRT
East 180th st
42nd st TS/34th st Penn station
135th st/Lenox
149th st/GC (only for 4 line)
IND/BMT
135th st/St. Nicholas
Bedford Park Blvd
34th st to West 4th st/6th Ave line only
169th/179th st
Euclid Ave
If I remember the chart in the SDEIS correctly, there is a crossover at least every 3 stations.
No, it would just mean they'd have to operate very slickly to turn all Q trains on the downtown platform.
He said local north of 34th St. Which is precicely what it's going to be.
N - Weekdays, runs express between 59 Street in Brooklyn and 34 Street-Herald Square
That is weekdays, want to post the weekend service pattern on the N line for me? On weekends, the Q will be the TRUE AND MIGHTY BROADWAY EXPRESS 24/7 while the patsy N line must be a local after crossing the bridge on weekends. Broadway Local? It looks that way. With 3 different service patterns on the N, it is confusing as to what the cross-dresser will be wearing. High Heels or Dress Shoes?
Seriously though its more practical to switch the N over to the local track after 34 St. I think the crossover north of 57 was removed so there's basically no choice but to do that.
Now, I have been informed about unconfirmed reports about the NYCTA implimenting plan 4 for tomorrow. Which means, if your train is late upon arrival to a station, then it's just late (no bypassing stations). And trains in the yard will be stored underground so some express services might be cancelled.
And to the school children on this board, theres no school tomorrow.
Stay safe, and M1/M3's rule.
Da Hui
:-D
Robert
#3 West End Jeff
Therefore, today I am spending time today having lots of fun. I swept the kitchen floor and the stub of hardwood flooring in the living room, I vaccuumed the semi-permanent (wall-to-wall) carpeting, did dishes, took pictures of the interior of my apartment (Canon Powershot A80), and now, of course, I'm sitting at the computer eating a chocolate cupcake. This day is great!
WEATHER ALERT FOR WEDNESDAY, JANUARY 28, 2004: All New York City Public Schools will be closed on Wednesday, January 28th, and all after school activities will be canceled. Regents examinations scheduled for Wednesday will not be administered. Additional information regarding the missed Regents examinations will be provided as soon as it is available. Tweed, Regional Offices, and all NYC Department of Education business offices will be open.
We administrators just don't get a break, do we? I was the only one on my floor till about 9:30. Now it seems as if about a third of the staff on it has come in, including someone from Rockville Centre, someone who takes MN's Harlem Line from Pleasantville and someone who takes the A in from Far Rock. Not bad, considering Rockaway service goes down at the first hint of lowering barometric pressure. Three other co-workers, who come from Valley Stream, Long Beach and Sayreville, NJ didn't make it.
At least the phones are quiet.
Only twice in my nearly 20-year employment with the DOE have administrative offices been closed. One was two days for the Buzzard of January '96 (so nicknamed by me because a local store put up a computer-generated sign reading "CLOSE- DO TO BUZZARD"), which dumped more than twice what we got today. The other was the blackout this past August. In both cases, management was originally trying to deduct a personal day from everyone's account DESPITE the office being closed.
Considering the lengthy commute you must endure- and the fact that you use the Brighton line- it's good you made it. Have business owners along LIC's 44th Drive gotten any better at shoveling their front walks?
While it's not entirely clear-cut, you may have encountered what I (shamelessly) call The Peter Rosa Rule of Inclement Weather Attendance. It holds that there is an inverse relationship beween the distance an employee lives from work and his or her likelihood of making it into work during bad weather. In other words, it's the people who live far away who are most likely to be at work when the weather's bad, and vice versa.
Don't laugh. I base this on observations during more than twoenty years' working at several different jobs.
I once drove to a meeting in the western suburbs of Boston. It snowed in MA but not here. The road was wet the whole way; I left at 5:30 and arrived at 8:30. The locals had to shovel 20 inches of heavy wet stuff out of their driveway and didn't get in till 10.
And as I said in another post, the 7:09 arrival from Southeast was only 2 minutes late this morning.
TD said it lists at $1,999.95. For the authenticity you describe, it would cost $41,999,999.95, a scale $2+ billion.
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
I understand that the M4 are triples and biuld by a different company. Are the cabs any different?
How about a M6?
M4s and M6 are both triplexes. Don't know who built M4s (Japanese firm?) - believe the M6 builder is from Brazil. Cabs are similar and all three can be MU'd together.
M4/M6's-Triplexes(I'm not to sure about the M6). M6's have darker windows than M4's.
Home Depot train though? I'll see if I can drag myself out there to catch it with you. Don't have a camera handy though. :(
From what I understand the HBLRVs and NCS LRVs cannot mu. Would it better if the cars were built to similar electric and mechanical specs? I guess one of the reasons is that they most likely will never meet up.
One HBLR car had its wheels changed and now runs on the NCS.
Curves with tight radii on the loop in Penn Station make “deeper flanges” prohibitive. Also, with the connection with the former Erie RR Orange Branch, it is no longer “all private ROW”, whatever that means…
For both lightrail systems to meet up, the HBLR would have to cross into Elizabeth via a bridge/tressel. I can't see in a million years NJ Transit extending the Westside avenue line across the river which is a duplication of Path.
If there's any river the HBLR needs to cross, it's the Kill Van Kull into Staten Island!
That's a great idea, and I've been saying that for a long time.
You're right there's really no need for HBLR and NCS to connect, since PATH already joins the two. After all, SEPTA's subway-surface lines never connect with their suburban light rail routes 100, 101, and 102, but the Market-Frankford line connects them.
Mark
Maybe the Light Rail could go straight across the Bayonne Bridge. I'm gonna go drive down there this weekend. As the guys in this report are telling me, I've stayed away from Staten Island long enough.
I would like NJ Transit to extend the Westside avenue line to the Hudson Mall. I don't know if you guys remember it but before the Newport Center opened, the Hudson Mall was shopping center in Jersey City. Today, the Hudson Mall is a shell of what she once was and it's sad to go inside and see about 50-75 people in the entire mall!
I don't know how those stores survive but there is a constant roll over of retail as the motorist no longer supports that mall. To make matters worse, there is only one bus line that supports it and headway is like an hour.
Do you mean Cardiff University in Wales? I've just searched their website and can't find any mention of light rail.
Need any more evidence that British politicians are utterly bonkers?
Ah - that accounts for why I couldn't find it on the Cardiff University website.
Mark
Whenever I hear that I have visions of some silver racing machine from the 1930s rather than a light rail vehicle...
Mark
It is sad after all the progress made, the venom of hatred is still alive. God bless David of Broadway.
I a public venue you can have most anything happen. I was confronted by an elderly drunkard on two occasions while riding RTD (LAMTA now)buses in Los Angeles who decided they didn't like me. The alcohol had a lot to do with it. Happily, they were a lot more bark than bite. Tey had been in and out of jail for things like drunk and disorderly, simple assault, trespass, fare evasion, etc. And these guys boarded the bus in Beverly Hills!
Stuff happens, and you do the best you can.
Seriously, I've a few tales to tell, also.
No, he didn't.
If I had caught the early flight, I would have been able to ride an incline or two.
I'm very thankful that you weren't injured badly enough to have to postpone your trip. Without getting into any racial or religious overtones, all I can say is that's a damned shame that one can't ride public transit without being vulnerable to this type of assualt. As has been stated by many, the M60 is an inherent problem, serving both a local Manhattan market and an airport market- hence many people with luggage.
At least you got to the wedding on time.
-He posted a few days earlier about going to Pittsburgh, on a Friday and had general questions.
-He had to take the 2/3 to 125th st to catch the M60, which was the scene of the crime.
-Laguardia is the more sensible choice for shorter distance shuttle flights than JFK. Pittsburgh is ideal from LGA.
I spoke to Brian privately last Friday about this and agreed that I would mot say anything over the weekend on this board. But as more Subtalkers drew the same conclusion as I did, I knew the secret would not last long.
On the other hand, a day trip to Fresno from Los Angeles to see an art exhibit was perfect on Amtrak, and impossible (expensive and inconvenient) by air.
According to my handy Amtrak system timetable, the earliest arrival of the day in Pittsburgh is at 4pm, and the latest departure from Pittsburgh is at 1:30pm. Compare that to the time constraints that I posted.
Why not? Let's all be honest. If what Brian says is accurate, David was assualted by a black man/boy simply because he was a Jewish man.
I never said that. David does not believe this was a religious matter.
It is important not to prejudge, because there are always at least a few possible motives that can be true regardless of the race/ethnicity involved.
Including the victim, apparently!
Were you there? Have you ever even ridden the M60? The attack didn't come from nowhere -- I explained the tensions that naturally exist on a route like the M60, and this attack falls right in line.
I can't prove it was an anti-Semetic attack. But I suspect it was.
Depends on the way you look at it. If the black kid got shot only a few times then it's only can be said to be anti semetic in an assumptious manner. If the kid got shot numerous times (lets say 41), then it sounds more truthful than assumptious for the shooting to be in a bias manner.
As for Greenberger and it being because he was jewish, you can say that. But if you look at other bias attacks commited by blacks against whites, you would notice ALOT more damage because of it. i.e. I doubt it was racially motivated since Greenberger didn't require any hospital visits.
If one wishes to really get down and dirty on something, that's what private E-mail is for.
Does anyone have any info about the Far Rock LIRR line? Is it running at all? Delays?
www.MTA.info's LIRR page has not been updated since 9:15 last night, so its useless right now.
Thanks.
But often times C bus shows up and its so full it has to leave riders behind, as was also the case yesterday. Meanwhile, the Broad Street subway I just got off of had lots of empty seats on it. I started to see some sense in the plans to cut the C. Why should SEPTA pay to operate a bus when the rail line has so much extra capacity?
Now I've heard before all the reasons that riders might prefer the C bus...the stations aren't ADA compliant, people don't feel safe in them, etc. I guess my question is, would SEPTA save enough money by not running the C bus to be able to rehab the BSS stations, make them ADA compliant, elderly riders can't walk several blocks to a station, and provide better security? I ask because that's an expensive proposition, obviously.
And I'm asking theoretically, not worrying about the rider opposition to any such schemes, opposition that has kept the C rolling so far. Also, I'm interested in any alternate ideas for coaxing riders from the C bus down onto the train where there's more room for them.
Mark
"If you look at it, there is NO bus route that duplicated the MFSE, particularly on Market St."
And as the Market-Frankford Line's rehabilitation approaches completion, there would be no need for one. The stations are relatively close together, the majority of them are ADA-compliant (after rehab) and passenger-friendly.
Now the same should be done to the Broad Street Line - and oh yes, let's extend that line up Roosevelt Blvd. to make it more attractive to riders needing to go downtown.
What kind of contemptuous policy would it reflect if SEPTA eliminated a service which passengers prefer to force them to use one that they perceive as a worse alternative?
How about a carrot approach instead of the stick? Address the issues that deter riders from using the subway. Make it more attractive. Let the C bus be the "very local" and the BSS the fast longer haul mode of choice.
I used the Broad Street Subway to and from high school for four years, and was very very impressed with the service. It took about 15 minutes from Walnut Locust to Olney, where my high school was, and not much longer to 8th and Market. Frequencies were great in the morning, and not bad after school, even though the end of the school day was significantly before the peak period. If school ended at 4:05 instead of 3:04 we would have had even better service, and less crowded too, as the peak direction is to Olney, but reverse peak must be run at the same frequency. Service later was frequent and non-crowded.
I do not know why people would use the C over the subway provided their destination is accessible to both. Maybe the C trips are so short that the subway would be inconvienient. In that case the C should not be eliminated, as it is serving a different market from the subway, and becomes more efficient as passenger turnover increases. If people are taking long trips on the C, I don't understand that unless they cannot walk down to the subway station.
1) Elderly
2) Anyone with difficulty walking
3) Shopping bags, luggage etc.
4) Kids in strollers
5) Walkers and wheelchairs
Add to that the fact that many BSS stations have not had a face;ift to make them brighter and more inviting.
Actually, it wouldn't be much different without the C bus, since none passed while I walked back to Market St :).
http://www.imageexchange.com/mvx10/engine.cgi?cid=3Pwle0cZOH9h7LsBGjMxEJ22Jr&store=nytm&page=default&body=sku1&sku=11767
Yes, there is a 2004 edition and they still are available. If all else fails in obtaining a copy, please e-mail me.
There usually is a reorder page taped to the October image. Sorry if you didn't receive one.
Bill "Newkirk"
PHILIP HOM
You left out May 1997........ new R-44's at Far Rockaway station in Sept. 1972.
Bill "Newkirk"
PHILIP HOM
8>) ~ Sparky
Metro-North will operate a Sunday schedule beginning at 9:00 AM today. This schedule will accommodate the light ridership the railroad has seen so far this morning.
This schedule will be augmented with additional trains out of Grand Central between 4:00 PM and 7:00 PM
Peace,
ANDEE
This is an indirect way of saying they don't want to expose any more of their equipment to the snow than possible. I rode outbound this morning on a very empty train, but the inbound trains were pleasantly full (with some seats to spare).
Not to mention that if and when I get my PDA, I can post on Subtalk from the comfort of my space at the 8th Ave side of Penn.
I don't think more R32s were added to the R line...unless one or two more just happen to appear on any given day because there weren't any R46s to spare.
Off-peak, the number is usually lower, since fewer trains are in service. I don't think there's any systematic attempt to pull specifically R-32's (or specifically R-46's) from service off-peak -- I've even seen R-32's running on the F late nights.
On that page, it shows about 12 sets of 32's for morning rush service and 9 sets for the evening rush.
Mike
I notice a R32 Queens boudn F at Roos. Island this morning around 10am
The Preserved North American Electric Railway Cars website at www.bera.org/pnaerc.html has just been updated by Webmaster Jeff H., so a number of additions and corrections have been made. There are also new photo links and various other things. If you've never visited the site before, try it out and let me know what you think! I'm ALWAYS looking for more information to fill in the blanks. Thanks!
Frank Hicks
This kind of shamless plug I look forward to
Keep up the good work.
I found photos and information about transit in Western states, including CAT (Las Vegas public transit) BART and LAMTA.
http://photos.transitgallery.com/SubwaySurfaceKcars/adj
I think that might be Bill Monaghan of Trolley Drivers Web Page at the controls of 9024, he blew the horn just after I took the picture.
http://photos.transitgallery.com/SubwaySurfaceKcars/adi
http://photos.transitgallery.com/SubwaySurfaceKcars/adk
In both Netscape and IE the shots only load half to a quarter of the actual embedded shot.
In both browsers, the shots only loaded 1/2 to 1/4 of the embedded shot.
In both Netscape and IE the shots only load half to a quarter of the actual embedded shot.
Thanks for sharing.
Mark
The 30 second ad featured various toys in quick segments. With my eyes, I saw one seated on an R32 with the E going to "Kings Highway" on the rollsigns, another shot of 51st st/IRT station was there as well as a quick shot of an R42 (Eastern Division folks, that was quick) before the two mentioned.
Anyway, if this is the case why have I been hearing stories about LIRR MU trains gapping out as the LIRR runs their trains with like 12 cars each and I doubt there are gaps over 800 feet long.
So you have a right triangle, the base of which is a fixed
distance regardless of the switch angle. The higher number
the turnout, i.e. the shallower the angle, the longer will
be the hypotenuse and therefore the more linear footage of
train not on the contact rail.
Sparks were flying all right on the eastbound LIRR train as it approaches the Ronkonkoma hub.
Expect that M-1 pair never to return to service. It's likely to head south of the border. I hear any kind of fire or collision damage spell the end of any M-1 pair.
Bill "Newkirk"
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
get a load of the anti-rail guys quote. I guess creating a you're own turn lane, ignoring all signs and traffic rules, and destruction of public property isn't illegal in this guys world.
Why aren't they taking their licenses away?????
Anyone familiar with houston too? Do they have a lot of midwestern snowbirds there, or do they really make up their own rules? Because the former around here are really driving me nuts with how they drive any way they feel like it(ie, don't pull in front of me illegally from a dead stop when i'm doin 55 and honk BACK at me).
...Light-rail opponents said the system is confusing.
"Perhaps signage, perhaps it's lighting, perhaps it's timing, perhaps it's speed, perhaps it's a little bit of everything," said Edd Hendee, a rail opponent.
I think it makes sense to believe a police officer over a rail opponent, even if you aren't a railfan.
Mark
And you know what, these anti-rail people need to give it up and get lost. What a bunch of whining babies. "waaa, I told you people rail was EVIL!!". How many other movements are there that just wont die? I can't think of any. You lost, now go think of a way to profit off the system now and turn your life around. Right?
I'm so sick of this everyday. This is why I own a bus pass now Though I find it odd, I've ridden buses for years/"decades" in other cities, and i never seen bus drivers have to put up with so much every week taht they do here either.
We need to retest all out-of-staters. I'm going to start a movement.
Though, I wouldn't consider traffic to be moving all that well.
But am I FINALLY getting close to understanding this? It feels like a revelation to me. :)
It promotes development in a narrow, DENSE corridor along the rail lines. Then, the space between the rail lines is left at very low development to protect the environment and be available for recreation to the people living along the rail lines nearby, who don't have to drive to EITHER the city center OR the open space. Everybody wins.
If they came to New York, they would not only pull in front of you at a dead stop, they'd park, go to Nathan's and put the truck up on blocks. These are NOT, I repeat NOT, railfans you're talking about.
To be honest though, when i'm driving around, the only cars I need not to avoid or to try my best to get around before something bad happens are from two main areas:
All Deep south license plates, and usually NY tags. The NY tags are nothing to be proud of, you guys just adapt to our bad habits quickly and aren't afraid of going the SPEED LIMIT.
That's why I find this whole thing so shocking with the illegal turns and people not paying attention. I can't imagine.
And they should bring Careless Driving since he wasn't paying attention as a 4th charge. Maybe change the law and make penalties stiffer in whatever county Houston resides in.
And I love one-way streets, I wish all roads were one way. But then I'd have to argue that on highway newsthreads, and those are the biggest bunch of commys/Anaracist i've ever seen on a single webgroup.
What amazes me is how if you get west of the Mississippi you're willing to drive 90 on the freeways, but if there's anybody else on the road, you slow to 15. Yes, I much prefer the NYC plates. Aggressive driving is just easier on everybody.
Of course, the easiest is no driving at all. There is a basic problem with having light rail cross automotive traffic and pedestrians, and, given the inevitable operation cost, I believe finding an elevated route is worth the effort.
Why isn't anything being done to those who are violating the law? Why isn't he handing out tickets?
Mark
Plus, i drive a small compact, but would love to won the biggest truck there is.
Now that line right there would have most people going, but this is a transit board, how can you want to drive a Chevy Silverado 2500 extended cab with the Alison tranny and diesel duramax engine with the redneck tires(yep, obviously I dreamed about this).
Because I still love to drive, but I'm still a humanists who doesn't see it being the only and best way. Driving is for fun or business(ie a trucker or bus driver). You shouldn't be forced to have to drive in heavy stop and go congestion to pick up gum, or pizza and take over 30 min doing so. I love being albe to walk for a newspaper or mail, etc.
I love to walk and take the bus too, and always do so whenever I can. Plus I'd do anything to be able to commute w/o "benefit of car" too.
And that's where the rest of the world fails on, imo. Roads aren't the answer, but i don't want them dissolved. If the internet bandwidth functioned like the roads around here, unlike the roads, no one would even bother or attempt to come online and give up.
I had a roommate once, who needed to take someone accross the street to the ATM, his car started acting up in the parking lot, and he turned around and they never went. It was across the street!!! on the other side of the intersection. That's the short version, but that's the problem today!!!!!!
This might be interesting, on "greyfields," using old useless shopping centers and building new villages on the parking lots. The rail applications are obvious. It also makes clear how it isn't rail VERSUS road, but the right mixture of both.
Mark
That area is really interesting from an urban planning point of view. On the positive side, there are lots of locally-owned businesses right there, like the three I mention in the above paragraph. What's more, the apartment complexes in that area are dense enough to support some kind of transit. These are two ingredients of a healthy neighborhood. The drawbacks are that the place is so pedestrian hostile due to poor planning, and that there is precious little transit there. One Jatran bus route runs down Northside Drive, and only hourly, and then only in one direction!
This is a shame. With a little planning and transit that area could be really cool. Jackson was slow to get in the game, but they're trying in the Fondren neighborhood now, with mixed-use redevelopment going in. I hope it takes off and inspires other people to re-invent other neighborhoods in the city.
Mark
Is downtown picking up any?
Lean times may be over for eateries
There was an article last summer that talked about a few people who had turned buildings into apartments in downtown Jackson, and how the few apartments they had were in huge demand, but skeptical banks weren't interested in funding construction or conversion to make more apartments. But since then, another building, the Electric Building, has been slated for redevelopment for commerical and residential mixed-use. If only they'd do that with the Kind Edward!
But it hasn't taken off to the point where you'd notice a real difference yet. North State in Fondren has seen a much more noticeable change.
You're very right, Jackson is very spread out, so even if there is localized dense development, the system would have to connect very far-flung pockets of density. At least they could make those localized pockets more walkable. In fact, there was a huge rebuild of I-55 in the early 1990s, and you can actually walk from North Hill Square apartments to Old Time Deli, Bebop, and Lemuria. It's not a pretty walk, and all you see is the concrete undrepass where Northside drive cuts under the interstate, but it can be done now at least.
But rather than connect far-flung pockets a smarter plan would be to do all of the redeveloping in areas closer to downtown.
And for the record, my parents did in fact use that one Jatran bus that runs west on Northside to get to work, meager as it is, until their work schedule changed...Jatran doesn't run after 6:00 PM!
Mark
You didn't mention the pain of trying to tunnel in Yazoo clay! Yikes!
Even if you can't build rail in Jackson easily, I'd be happy with buses that ran more than once per hour. Personally, I think a good candidate for rail that has room for it would be the median of highway 25 heading east out of town. It's one of few routes across the Pearl River to the eastern suburbs, and is crowded as all get-out. We'd just have to figure out how to connect the route to downtown...
Mark
Plus, you're talking about encouraging sprawl to the east (maybe). You have an better opportunity to keep some density along I-55, which is a fortunately dense corridor as long as those shopping centers don't go bust (or have they already?), and to redirect the development back toward the southeast, and maybe even get some (gasp) racial diversity.
Which section of North Hill Square are your folks in? We were in the two southernmost parts, the little white ones southeast and the eight-unit yellow bricks southwest by the school.
Though, on the flip-side, this is what they did down the street to a dead mall.
Clearwater mall #1 Note next to Pier one is now a bus stop where two major routes cross.
First page only, though some of those publix's are nice
At first I thought it was nice while it was being built, because I lived near something similar. But then They made it as unpedistrian friendly as possible. It's a nightmare to park or walk through. And after I read how the thing was designed around the car, and it discourages visiting more than one store, I wanted to boycott the place, but between what they put in there, and the bus stop, that's not working.
On another off note, you know what I call one mile in Florida? One block.
What's needed is for the regional transportation agencies to get some control over the rezonings.
What you mentioned is in Winter Park, outside of orlando. I dont' know why someone would pay a half a million to live above a restaurant in one of those complexes. Especially on the street that was located on.
That's only part of the problem. The Metro was designed poorly. If you look at the HBLR, you can see how NJ Transit did plenty to keep the traffic separate from the lightrail by constructive use of cement deviders and ROW in the middle of the street.
The Metro was build by motorist who did not want to take any space from the automobile which is why we are seeing all these accidents.
Mark
As for the rest... what complete [expletive deleted] idiots.
I'm trying to find out if the reconstruction of the Atlantic Avenue 2/3/4/5 station is going to include reopening underpasses, stairways and entrances/exits that were once closed. It seems that there are numerous stairways on both ends of the stations on the side platforms that have been hidden for years behind walls, but are now reappearing during the reconstruction.
Atlantic Terminal Complex
After Penn Station, the Atlantic Terminal complex on Flatbush Avenue in Brooklyn is the railroad’s busiest terminal (serving approximately 26,000 customers a day) and the busiest transportation complex in Brooklyn, with approximately 130,000 Long Island Rail Road and NYC Transit customers daily. The reconstruction the Atlantic Terminal is urgently needed to improve the structural and aesthetic surroundings of the station complex.
†
The Long Island Rail Road has allocated $70 million in the 2000-2004 Capital Program for the second phase of reconstruction of the terminal complex, begun under the 1995-1999 Capital Program. The project includes an enlarged concourse, an air-conditioned passenger waiting room, new stairs, widened passenger transfer corridors and a Long Island Rail Road entranceway at street level. Passenger circulation and access will be improved and crowding in stairways and corridors will be reduced, especially in the Long Island Rail Road connection to the IRT subway.
†
The project involves a joint funding and project management effort between the railroad and NYC Transit for the complete design and staged construction. In addition, a developer will construct a new floor, which will also serve as a roof for LIRR. The entrance will be connected to the developer’s overhead structure.
Rehab projects do not always appear on the website alongside new projects. If you want a see a list of them, go to the Capital Plan documents, or check out the Procurement Opportunities section periodically. You'll see announcements for contract bids. For example, the rehabilitation of the White Plain Road Line, including station ADA upgrades, was announced that way, along with contract numbers, a value range, and specific work details.
Not quite. Phase one is showing signs of major progress; the NYCT portions ought to be done by summer. However, rehab on the LIRR terminal and construction of the new grand entrance on Flatbush has not begun yet.
They are the LA Fruit Salad, and the NJ Transit disco scheme.
Also lots of N-scale railroad stuff.
Look under seller sjh50
I'm ROTFLMFAO Now, because I know you do not know who you responded
to about the PCCs at Brooklyn Navy Yard. Currently working on
1001, three guesses, 1 & 2 don't count. >GG<
8>) ~ Sparky
I did have a few that I custom painted for San Francisco Muni in the "Landor" scheme and they went for as high as $130.00 -- I put a starting bid of $49.95 on. Made my day when those auctions finished.
SubwaySpot Snow Day
Enjoy the slideshow as well!
Here's a preview:
Shot of the day:
the only interesting thing was having 4 and 5 trains on the local track due to a sick customer on a brooklyn bound 4, that turned around at bowling green, and went up the the bronx OOS.
Is it physically possible to route trains down 6th Ave (express or local) and continuing to Canal/Chambers/WTC/Broadway Nassau? Has this ever been done? Ever been considered? Wouldn't this provide a faster ride from Midtown to Wall St than is currently available?
Thanks,
Isaac
isaacbrumer@hotmail.com
Yes, service once did run on 6th Ave to Hudson Terminal. The D terminated there for quite some time, until 1954.
Large-scale protests have sidelined this plan, but it may yet re-appear; the cost for building a new tube will be high. Pataki is set to reveal his plans for bringing the AirTrain to Lower Manhattan soon; let's hope he doesn't opt to kick NYCT out of its tunnels.
I know it's not going to happen - but a nice thought.
Donn't ask me, it wasn't my idea. I also don't know anything about the voltages, etc.
The switches do get a lot of use nights and weekends, and they come in handy for impromptu diversions. They haven't been in regularly scheduled revenue service since the demise of the JFK Express in 1990.
Just to clarify, the switches are only between the local tracks. Once an A train has left 59th Street on the express track, it cannot reach the Rutgers tube without a reverse move.
Of course, the JFK Express was an exception. It had to get to both the Financial District and the Midtown Business District. If ever they were to revive it, it should run Howard Beach-Fulton-Cranberry-6th Ave.-53rd St.-Queens Blvd-Jamaica/Stuphin-(empty to Archer). This will serve Brooklyn downtown, Financial District, Rock Ctr, and LIC, among other office areas. People above W. 4th would go to Jamaica, while people below Canal would be directed to Howard Beach.
And yes, I know it's only within my fantasies that such a thing can be accomplished.
What's even confusing is that at W4, among other 8th Ave. line stations, signs suggest you to take the E, while Rockaway bound A(R44) show "via JFK Airport" on their LCD signs. "OMG, I'm on the wrong direction platform!"
Why? Almost all commuters into Penn Station have better routes to downtown -- via LIRR to Brooklyn or via NJT (or Amtrak) to PATH.
And it's not like much is gained by having locals and expresses both going to the same place, since they stop at different platforms. If only the express ran to lower Manhattan, then everybody going to lower Manhattan would wait on the express platform and wouldn't have to guess anymore.
People would wait for an E train, so they didn't have to walk from the express platform. Everyone would crush to the downtown bound first few cars.
In turn, I can imagine how "from PABT" riders would be upset to lose their one "standing space" ride, if WTC was still standing.
So.... Swap the V and C, maybe... But leave one 8th Ave. local to WTC.
BTW, as a former resident of the UWS, I'd like a D local on weekends and nights and I hope you're coping with the recent incident that happened to you in a non-negative way.
Wado
It is possible for a northbound train at Grand St. to transfer to the uptown local track between Broadway-Lafayette and W. 4th St, and then onto the uptown 8th Av. local track before coming into W. 4th St, but the reverse sequence is not possible.
Bob Sklar
Bob
I'm sure it's been used for GO's.
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/service/pdf_f/06_acbr.pdf
In past weekends when this has run, the E has run express, presumably to reduce congestion on the local track. IMO, it's not worth the increase in passenger confusion, especially at 34th.
This weekend the E is running via 6th to begin with. At W4 southbound, the next stop on all trains on the upper level is Broadway-Lafayette, while the next stop on some trains on the lower level is Spring.
If you ran all 6th Ave local trains to downtown and all 8th Ave locals across Houston St there'd be no switching delays.
Then both 6th Ave and 8th Ave would have access to downtown.
The only reason I can think that NYCT hasn't done it is because those who would be hurt would complain far louder than those who would be helped would give thanks.
(V) 6th Avenue Local to Chambers-WTC 16/5
(C) 8th Avenue Local to Kings Highway via Culver Express 16/5
(C) 8th Avenue Local to Chambers-WTC - Off Hours
(F) 6th Avenue Local to Coney Island via Culver Local 24/7
(E) 8th Avenue Express to Euclid Avenue via Fulton Local 24/7
Present Merges Are:
(E) -> (C) on local tracks at 50th Street
(C) -> (A) on Express tracks at Chambers Street
Proposed Merges are:
(E) -> (A) on express tracks at 50th Street
(C) -> (F) on local tracks south of W 4th Street.
(V) -> Clean shot into Chambers-WTC with no merge.
(A) and (E) -> Clean shot into the Cranberry Tunnel with no Merges.
Other Advantages:
6th and 8th Avenue Services on the Culver Line.
The (G) is local to Church Street.
The (F) is local to Coney Island. No loss of existing service to any station.
The (C) is Express to Kings Highway. It is an additional service, and provides access to 8th Avenue. Maybe the Culver Line doesn't *really* need Express Service but the (C) train does have to go somewhere, although it could end at 2nd Avenue as the (V) does now.
Methinks the possibility of an "anti-rush" express on the Culver might be interesting. Ie. On the elevated (3 track) section Rush direction trains make all stops while trains in the non-rush direction run express to position equipment for rush direction service more efficiently.
Elias
Goin home was fun. On the way, saw GLI goin down Willis(re-route?), and then I saw the bus i took that morn broken down by the Porsche dealership. Fell asleep, went 3 stops past mine(oops).
All in all, great day!
I should kick myself for not posting here and sharing the photos that Jared and I get everytime we go on trips. You guys have a good mix of people here!!
Here is a link for a little assortment of pictures Jared and I took while at Mineola on Wednesday (day after the big snowstorm). I sorted out the best ones out of 40 or so that I took with my digital camera. http://www.verbalone.com/trains/LIRR/jan28/ Jared has a really nice Canon Rebel EOS II that I want now! I do love my Canon Powershot G3 though ;-)
Enjoy guys!
In one of those shots I could hardly see from the "train induced blizzard"! I saw 1 DM set and 2 DE sets heading east. 3 M1/3's heading east (1 stopped at Westbury). And 1 DE set heading west, and one M7 heading west.
Houston MetroRail Appears On-Track for 40 Crashes in First Year
Officials will look at signals used to warn drivers of trains.
Link to article in the Houston Chronicle (Houston, Texas):
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/metropolitan/2374275
Link to video report from KTRK-TV (Houston, Texas):
http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/news/video/012704_railvid.html
taken from the The Transportation Communications Newsletter
Noll said Metro should install a guardrail between the train tracks and traffic lanes. Only small white humps mark the barrier now<<<<<<
I don't know who's to blame? It obvious the system was not designed to take any road space from the motorist which is why they have all the problems. It's only after several people were killed and all these accidents are occuring that the city is finally going to give the Metro some sort of right of way. Insane.
If you take a look at the HBLR, the train runs almost exclusively apart from traffic once it reaches downtown Jersey City. There are cement deviders and guardrails all along the path protecting the public and the motorist. After the train exits Exchange place the HBLR runs in the middle of the road on an exclusive ROW that cars or Peds cannot cross. As the HBLR enters Newport center, it continues to run on the designed ROW and enter Hoboken on an elevated rail completely apart from traffic.
It goes to show you folks, the motorist who designed the Metro botched the system because they did not want to take away any road space from automobiles.
Apparently the person somehow jumped on top of the HEET itself and squeezed himself in through the tiny crawlspace between the ceiling and the top of the barricade.
I meant to say climb but I was in such a rush to type this post that I said "jump" instead...
Did you notify the Station Agent at 66 Street? Sooner or later someone is going to climb up the HEET and get stuck trying to squeeze thru.
Elias
The right thing to do is call the police and have the person extracted safely (and then prosecuted for trespass and fare evasion).
Plus we all know he'd sue and probably win, saying the TA didn't provide proper warning about getting stuck while trying to evade the fare.
Squeezing through would be the best description. I saw this at Bergen St. station of the (F) months ago. A couple of teenagers were squeezing through the top of the HEET at this part time entrance.
Bill "Newkirk"
Robert
Peace,
ANDEE
Also, why is there no transfer from Prince St to Broadway-Nassau? At least from Prince St uptown, it seems to be as simple as knocking down a single wall to allow passage.
If you look at West Houston Street, where the 1/9 stops, you will get a better idea of what the entire street was like pre-IND
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/STREET%20SCENES/deepsix/deepsix.html
Likewise at Chambers St it would have been directly above the 7th Av subway station (and at Franklin one extremely short block away). Could one transfer between the two lines there?
"The IND first broke ground on March 14, 1925 at St. Nicholas Avenue near 133rd Street, a section that became part of the present Eighth Avenue line, designated the A train.
"IND construction would follow for the next 15 years, with break for World War II [...]"
1925 plus 15 is 1940. The U.S. wasn't involved in WWII yet!
One subtle difference with the street widenings is that the dual-contract work tended to leave parts of buildings standing, shearing off a corner and then replacing it with a new outside wall.
The street widenings for the IND tended to tear down the buildings rather than leave part standing. To this day, the lots in Brooklyn along Jay St, and the parks in NY along 6th Ave. by 3rd St. (and Houston St. of course) are evidence of this style of construction.
Lafayette consists of three different streets:
Elm Street ran from Chambers Street to Spring Street
Lafayette Place from Great Jones Street to 4th Avenue north of Astor Place.
New Elm Street was built around 1890 to link the two.
The part of Lafayette between Worth and Duane was the ONLY part of Lafayette built specifically for the subway. Shortly after that, the name Lafayette was applied. Elm Street between Worth and Chambers remained until 1943 when it was renamed Elk Street, then in the 1970s it was cut back to two blocks south of Duane because of the new Federal Building.
Perhaps it's to avoid having addresses like -273, Flatbush Av.
Roosevelt Avenue between some place in Woodside and College Point Blvd, except for a short section in Corona, was built for the Flushing line. Roos. Av east of CPB (then called Lawrence St) was called Amity Street and west of Woodside it was part of Greenpoint Avenue.
The 3rd Av El had an express stop at Houston. So even if Houston St itself was not as important as it is today, the 3rd Av El builders must have thought that neighborhood would have traffic to justify both local and express trains stopping.
Nowhere near each other.
...Do you mean Broadway-Lafyette? I think that may be possible, although it's not really needed, since the 6th Ave line has good transfers to the Broadway Line at Herald Square, and the Broadway Line has good transfer with the Lex at Union Square.
All the subway cars through the R42 (I believe) had a place for fire extinguishers. For years they stayed in place and then all of a sudden they began to disappear. After a while the TA stopped replacing them.
Robert
The water ones are really good super super soakers (my friend and I once upped the pressure a lot and got pretty good at long distances. For impressive bulk volume, a clothes washer pump hooked to a vacuum cleaner motor was great, though. IIRC, we emptied a fishtank's worth of water in about 5 seconds with it...).
The dry dust (class D?) ones are cool, but make a hell of a mess (I once triggered one in his basement as a joke - and it wouldn't shut off. That took the rest of the day to get at least realatively normal...)
The CO2 ones are fun to blast too.
We have a water one at home that serves duty as a squirrel repeller (keeps them out of the bird feeder. Man, you should see those things fly when you hit them with a jet of water), portable water source (great for in the basement, or garage), and oh yes, we actually used it as a fire exitinguisher once (Ford escort in the garage caught on fire...).
Ever see those signs by the hoses at GCT that read "Fire use only hands off"?
On one hand, it should be a safety reg that instructions to this effect are written in the cars. On the other hand, vandals and punks would then just walk around pushing out all the windows.
Has this safety feature ever been used?
By vandals and punks, quite frequently; also by people leaning on the end doors.
Yikes! I guess things have really changed since I graduated from JDHS (albeit nearly 30 years ago).
It's a zoo without bars.
Did anybody ever tell you that you look a lot like Vinnie Barbarino? Like you're played by the same guy or something.
Before some of you dont believe me, I have personally emailed and called MTH in MD, and I have received confirmation. Just thought some of you would have liked to have known.
Chris
www.hometown.aol.com/yank2304/subway1.html
This afternoon, I got a ride to the Metro. When I got there, a train came out of the pocket almost immediately, a 4 car train for Silver Spring. PIMS reported that a 4 car train to Glenmont was 9 minutes away and a 4 car train to Silver Spring was "approaching". I got on the lead car, 4052, and due to the infrequent service with short trains, the car was rather crowded when we left Grosvenor, especially considering Grosvenor was the first stop. We passed another outbound 4 car train on the bridge over the beltway. There were more people waiting than normal at Medical Center, Bethesda, and Friendship Heights. During the course of my commute, I saw two 6 car trains. Trains seemed to be running anywhere from every 3-8 minutes apart, and control was making many adjustments by extending dwells as necessary. I plan on driving tomorrow, so hopefully, I will have nothing transit related to report.
The Shore Line Trolley Museum AKA Branford, was visited by the NBC
crew of the Today Show, recently & will be shown during the 0830 AM
segment, Eastern on NBC, Thursday January 29. This is a reschedule
from Tuesday, January 27.
Many rare pieces were rolled out for the visit by the NBC cameras,
so set your VCRs. The Today Shows on NBC from 0700 to 1000, Eastern.
Enjoy, 8-) ~ Sparky
Frank Hicks
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
I might have to "beg" for a VCR copy from somebody.
Chuck Greene
Also, because of the previous cancelation from Tuesday, I listed
the entire time slot for the show in New York City.
Hey 4.5 minutes on Nationwide TV for Branford including the Minnie.
Thank you Today Show & NBC. >>GG<<
8-) ~ Sparky
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Chuck Greene
No. "Fair use" does not include posting in a public place, which the internet is considered.
And you wonder why we railfans are viewed with suspicion.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
However they do not do this. Once an episode is missed, it's almost impossible to get it. Since getting a copy of this episode does not deprive NBC of income on their intellectual property, I see no moral objection to violating it and distributing for free.
Copyright law should be modified to allow free and open distribution of all publicly released media that its owner does not make available in a reasonable manner.
Copyright laws need to be modified to meet the times.
I'm just sorry I missed it, as well as my buddy at channel 13 (our local NBC) who wanted to see it also. Guess I'll have to drag him down there in person this coming season.
And I think that the museum was not totally informed that the footage
at Branford, would be intermixed with a segment on the Centennial
of the New York City Subway. The "Mineola" was shown in an as found
photo and misquoted, as a recent addition to the Shore Line Trolley Museum
Collection. Some exterior shot of her & the narrator highlighting the interior anemities.
He was also shown in the cab of Manhattan Elevated Car G in motion.
Also shown was the Thomas Edison film of the 1st Train, interviews
at the Transit Museum with Stan Fishler & Terry Kennedy. Also a
quickie with Mayor Bloomberg riding on the subway instead of a
limousine.
At least Branford was mentioned as the curators of August Belmont's
"Mineola", the only luxury subway car ever built.
As for the hosts of Today show, neither could remember the last time
they rode the Subway. BAH. >GG<
8>) ~ Sparky
Really? Not Randy Kennedy?
Shoot, I thought it might be worth watching :(.
8-) ~ Sparky
Steve, yes there is and the narration indicates it was filmed by
Thomas Edison on his new invention the movie camera. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
Frank Hicks
OPEN: Both motors (motor groups for 4-motor equipment) lose
power during transition.
"K" STYLE: Motor (group which is on the low side of the circuit
gets shunted out during transition and thus does not take power.
The other motor (group) remains powered. This style of transition
is used on streetcar "K" controllers, hence the name
BRIDGE: During the transition the motors and resistors are placed
in a bridge configuration. Both motors continue to take power.
I guess GE, which invented the K controller (in conjunction with
Thompson-Houston) was big on K style transition, because the early
type M equipment on the elevated cars, the composites and the
first order of steels (the 1904-1905 "Gibbs" cars) had the
contactors arranged to provide a K transition. Starting with
the 1907 Deckroof order, this was changed to a bridge configuration.
Apparently the IRT was not concerned with jerkiness as they
routinely mixed these two classes of equipment.
Frank Hicks
I'd like to see the electrical prints for the CAE cars. Open
transition?? I wasn't aware that any Sprague-GE systems used
that.
Sadly missed it entirely, and my buddy at WNYT came on duty at 8:00 ... chief engineer walked in and asked why VHS was rolling, and told my buddy "oh, they did that about an hour ago" ... aggggh. :(
We don't watch "Today" ... it's gotten to be too much like CNN as far as usefulness goes, and "your neck of the woods" is painful to listen to. Heh.
Chuck Greene
If the brochures are around, please scan and post on the board, or e-mail it to me at mdlbigcat@comcast.net .
The weekday schedule is 15 minute departures from 6 to 9 AM, half hour 9 to 4, 15 minute 4 to 7 and half hour 7 to 9.
I hope DT considers making this a VHS/DVD. I'd like to buy this instead of pawning of BRAH. Sorry, South Ferry. ;P
I was David
Dante is Broadway Junction, his former handle was Dtrain22
Lincoln is Lincoln and his famous pillow, his former handle was R30
Christopher Rivera is also his Subtalk handle who showed off the pizza that I was able to obtain for lunch. Hey Chris it was the pizza from MY place, not yours
Carlos is 1SF9
The husband and wife team is the last remaing two, he posts as skfny on occasion.
Please don't remind me about the Tuna incident, it was edited out in the final print. But what happened on Car #2500 was a classic.
BTW: It is being replayed today at 12 Noon and 3 PM on the East Coast so the times might be the same on the West coast. Enjoy!
Since car wash water is recycled, I wouldn't be surprised if the whole Concourse fleet stinks now.
But FWIW, I LOVE that analogy, brah!
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
I rode along with the group for 9 hours.
Here are some stills from the tv show - I am in pic04 with the yellow bag: http://www.railfanwindow.com/gallery/nyustills01
And here are a whole ton of photos that I took during the filming of the tv show: http://www.railfanwindow.com/gallery/ultimateRIDE
Uh, it's a bit more complicated than that...
Its not like racing a car on a track or flying an airplane setting a somesort of record.
The majority of the things are out of your control.
1. We were never really -TRYING- to break any record.
2. It was 7 people.
3. I tried to take compliment in your post, and failed.
just spoke with mr. sea beach #4 fred !!............&..............
he is a nice dude folks !!
look foward to ridin the rails of so cal
too bad w could not ride the san pedro redcars this weekend !!
or go visit the real deal at the orange empire museum !!
the next time nighttime ops will be on the first week in march 04
so we will ride the 70 or so LACMTA rail system meet somewhere etc..
& maybe metrolink too ??........i hope so !! ...woooopeeee!!!
...lets do it next week !.....yea man !!
1 626 794-4503 my home phone if you are in sunny warm so cali...
lets go do this and have big time fun !!
lol ..
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
8~)
Don't worry about me John; I like to do a little slumming once in awhile.
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
Wayne
The normal pics can be found at
And the tower pics can be found at http://palter.org/~brotzman/Towers/?M=D even tho they are only two pics of BABYLON and one of JAY. The PD pics are in the trip folder.
And the teasers.
First, the star of the show, the famous leaning power of PD. Not how the windows don't fit in the frames any more. I felt bad for the lo senority operator who was stuck in there.
And here he is earning his $$ hooping up train orders to the passing Speonk train's Engineer...
and Conductor
Here is the 1:13 arriving train passing the tower about to lay over in the single track siding.
and finally the DM engine that brought us to Patchogue
At VALLEY
near Babylon
Along with the related signal bridges.
We got ROCKY
WANTAUGH
And AMITYVILLE
And the quaint PD Birdhouse...unclear if it is leaning or not.
John
And they are all controlled from this tower, which shares control of the entire line b/t here and VALLEY with VALLEY tower.
Whatever the problem an M-7 train was able to travel over it.
Are there any railroads in the far north of the globe (Canada, Russia) where there are systems permanently in place to do this over long stretches of track (aside from the burners at interlockings)?
If it were east of Babylon, there would NOT be a parallel road where the railroad is elevated, until abotu half a mile past Higbie Lane where Union Blvd. starts to parallel the tracks into Brightwaters.
Check it out, they got the smudge pots out under the switch.
You are arguably the best Subtalk photographer (Salaam takes some great pictures, too, so you are not without competition).
Keep up the good work, but don't freeze to death doing it!
Oh, and btw, is there sumtin we shud know about u? (420)
Mike, organize some of your photos into an album, write some captions and text, and go find a publisher. Make a coffee table book with a handsome cover and make some money off of this.
You don't get much of an impression of their size if you're next to them on a platform. But if you're on the ground next to them, for example at a grade crossing, they're quite a sight.
http://www.verbalone.com/trains/LIRR/PD/
Hope you are all doing well.
New York magazine is sending out mass mailings again with a wallet sized subway map, hoping you'll subscribe...it's actually the new map with the new Manhattan Bridge plan...
Does anyone remember the mishap they had in the summer of 2001, when they did the same campaign, but they issed maps right before the Manny B changes...anyway, I guess they were smart this time, and they even got advance copies of the new map...
nothing special, the BDNQ go over the bridge...all Bway local stops say N-R-W...
You can also get these NY magazine flyers with the map at various New York Sports CLub locations...if anyone is in a rush to see this, let me know, I took a few...plus I got that unsolicited mailing from them too..
The CI bound DeKalb station already has B-Brighton Exp and D-West End signs for it's light-up indicators...check it out..
Best, stay warm everyone.
Jonathan
The train usually has about 20 cars. Photo op for NEC from Newark to Washington.
click here for schedule
Sean@Temple
http://www.trainweb.org/oaksmodelrr/Video/Index.html
Stills
http://www.trainweb.org/phillynrhs/RPOTW.html
Video
http://www.trainweb.org/oaksmodelrr/Video/Index.html
No excuse for driving into path of light-rail trains
Mark
That's since 1992, so the driving population of the Baltimore metro area must be 100% better than the Houstonites who have the brainpower of a tree squirrel.
That even applies to our "Light Rail Death Trap", the crossing of Timonium Road. Double tracks crossing a four lane, heavily traveled suburban street.
Not one person has been hit there in 12 years of 50MPH LRV's weighting 92 tons, bells ringing, crossing there.
The UP worker who lifted the gate arm should be prosecuted for manslaughter and reckless endangerment and should serve jail time. His actions went beyond incompetence.
Unbelievable. It goes to show you folks how many decades its been since cities across the country have been without rail transport. Most people in these cities have become so car dependent and lack total fundamentals when it comes to respecting trains. They have no clue on the dangers and as a result, it's more of a game to some or something to be taken lightly.
Until they begin errecting fences and deviders, I'm afraid we're going to see more of these accidents.
I wonder if you can bring on attempted sucidide onto the list of charges.
I'd charge them with; careless/reckless driving/ disobeying whatever they disobeyed, destruction of public property, and trespassing.
Mark
My experience of the Gold Line in LA, on the *re*-opening day after a strike lasting several weeks, included seeing the results of a collison between a train and a limousine on one of the grade crossings.
I'm reminded of a case from the early days of LACMTA's Blue Line: A woman drive into a grade crossing, got hit by a passing train, and then claimed that the train operator had swerved to hit her! Needless to say, she was laughed out of court.
Mark
Even daily driving, it's typically 80% non-locals who are "out of their element"(term borrowed for a moron defending out of towners for not understanding that "Right turn only lane" means just that).
Looking at the pictures of DART, it's clear Dallas did a much better job of separating the lightrail from motor traffic. When I see pictures of the Houston Metro, it's always out in the middle of the street with no devider or any safty fences.
N line on rollsign
B line on rollsign
I reserve further comment on this issue. However, I did my duty to alert the C/R aboard the train and hopefully he will correct the rollsigns when he reaches 57/7.
But someone should put a hex on that hex key guy!
Also, signs DO break...ever ride Jamaica's R-32's?
Since when does the K train terminate at 95th Street?
(an example)
Jamaica Center
8 Avenue
(E) Queens Blvd/8 Ave
Case in point, the time the E train was stuck in 53 St tube for like 5 mins at a time. We moved for like 10 seconds only to stop for another 5 mins. The signs in my car were all out of whack. I set them to their proper destinations. Another person actually asked me to fix a sign, because he thought he got on a H train (The sign read H rockaway shuttle) and asked me "H train?" and I went and changed the signs to their proper readings.
Yes, the R32 I was on had knobs on it.
Maybe our photog can find another site with some clueful coders. :(
Hey, cut the guy some slack. Their service's quality notwithstanding, he's using the one cellular provider that's actually on-topic here. Bonus points to the first person who knows why.
Mark
Oh, well, now that we've gotten th.. ..t of the way, we can resumePOPpoking fun at their cellular serviBZZZZZZZZ.
[Signal Faded/Call Lost]
Southern Pacific Railroad INternal Telecommunications
Chuck Greene
And there go the points! I've also seen references as Internal Network Telecommunications.
I've got another handful of points for the first person to debunk that acronym - but we can save that for a rainy (or snowy) day.
Mark
"Originally was called Southern Pacific Railroad Internal Telecommunications when it formed in 1970. United Telephone and GTE purchsed SPRINT and ran the company as GTE Sprint in the 1980s. United Telephone bought out GTE's interest and changed their corporate name to Sprint in the early 1990s."
The official "Hoover's Ask the Editors" (used by some journalists) is as follows:
"The Southern Pacific Railroad developed a telegraph system along its railroad tracks that became a microwave long-distance network known as Southern Pacific Railroad Internal Telecommunications, or SPRINT. It is now Sprint Corporation."
So looks like today's "official sources" lost the word "Network" in the translation ...
Sorry you feel that way, since spread-spectrum modulation is behind all of the "next generation" wireless systems.
To try to bring this closer to topic again, there's a related thread in nyc.transit right now dealing with one local railroad's switch from radios to phones with push-to-talk.
Mark
Since when is non-rapid rail off-topic here?
Hey dude stop throwing bags on closing car doors and causing delays and damage to train motors while recording this act.
8-) ~ Sparky
Here Is Some Info About It.
Peace,
ANDEE
Thanks for the link. This Saturday's presentation has been
shortened to 30 minutes. CBS is to come to Branford later
this year, when warmth returns, to do a segment of our
Historic cars for the Centennial. Yes, indirectly Branford
will be assisting in the celebration of the Subways 100th.
Spoke to one of my reliable sources at TA a Branfordite. >GG<
8>) ~ Sparky
Actually we'll be celebrating all year ... as we'll be running NYC trolleys most every day & one week-end every month the El/Subway cars will come out to meet the trolleys, but you knew that !
I also wanted to know if the camera crew followed you guys around for the whole trip.
Sign reads:
"No J/M service at Fulton St from 1 AM FRIDAY (OPPS) to 5 AM Monday. For J/M service (opps again, it's supposed to be the J, not the J/M), take the 4/5 to Brooklyn Bridge-City Hall for J/M connections."
See why I say DUH!
Yes, they were in the general vicinity for the whole trip. However, no film crew member did the entire trip. They switched shifts during the night. Also, the film crew did not abide by the rules of having to stay within fare control. As such, they took many "breaks" from the action, most of the time causing the Ultimate Riders to be delayed.
Here are a whole ton of photos I took during the filming of the show. I rode along for 9 of the 34 hours.
http://www.railfanwindow.com/gallery/ultimateRIDE
Not this year when we will do it again after Stillwell. This time there will be NO camera crew to slow us down. We just need to coordinate the bathroom breaks and try to gain some access when we need it. Food is no problem, there will be support in the food department like last year's trip.
And no responses like, "You used a camera," or any silly crap like that.
One of three probable locations:
Mosholou Parkway on the 4 facing S/B
East 238th st/Nereid on the 2
Bronx Park East on the 2 (with the 5 train on the right side through the window in this case.
I'd say most likely it's the last one I mentioned.
Also, to be more specific in the "how," answer the question, "where is the camera?"
What?! That's not a good guess at all. The outer track is covered in snow, meaning that nothing has run on it in a while (I would guess at least 45 minutes). So the camera could NOT have been "in the last car of [a] train running on the outer tracks."
Indeed I have. How is that applicable?
The picture could have been taken from the first train over that track, wrong-railing, since the snow began to fall (albeit from the cab).
The "Fort Apache" station; Freeman St facing north.
There are no barriers in this picture so it CAN'T be the 2/5 line or the 6 line.
I take the last answer back.
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
Robert
Bill "Newkirk"
What do I win?
:)
Enjoy the Scans!
Some of my more interesting transit memorabilia includes...
SEPTA R6 Ivy Ridge destination sign
Denver RTD bus license plate
2 Arkansas city bus license plates (I don't know which town)
Chicago L car system map
Chicago L car green line route map
And I used to have my grandmother's CTA senior citizen pass, but I've misplaced it! : (
Mark
Mark
And, I'm not enjoying the SEPTA store online, I know that can't be the whole selection. It was like when I saw the Grand central terminal transit store, i must've spent in hour in there looking at every single thing. And when I went online to see the stuff again, it's not all in there!
I need to buy stuff via proxy apparently.
YOu know what though? I wish I could've had one of the old Almond Joy fans from the roof. I would love to have one those in here in the summertime! I miss that sound.
I just need to find what box my 1984 SEPTA bus schedule disappeared to. Got all my passes scaned.
Chronicle
I wonder what our rail opponent Edd Henley will say about this, since I doubt they will yet to throw in the towel.
Mark
so--- thats what da hui is...
Calm yourselves down now.
So what? This is SubTalk, not SubTalkerTalk.
Then you didn't follow the link. If you're arguing that its not being in the thread itself means it isn't "off topic or harassing," then the thread also isn't discussing a SubTalker.
This is the one that gets my vote. If the shoe fits...
Peace,
ANDEE
I'll be at John Bowne High School at 9:30 AM on Saturday, February 7.
Who's joining me?
I'll be looking in tomorrow's mail.
Will hit the panic button sometime next week...
i got one of those passbooks and i did some sample tests and i was blown away at how hard it was. it would ask questions about stuff that it assumed i would know, such as how many horn blasts is a signal for police and stuff like that.
do they hand out some sort of reference for the test or am i expected to know random stuff like that? if so i am screwed. i need to ace this test, i want to be a c/r so bad.
tim
He walks back and sits down, playing with his knife. Meanwhile, I opened up the cab door, grabbed my "board of education" and had it handy "just in case" (arnine, cabs normally aren't opened at the position) ... all's cool until we get held outside of DeKalb. By now, he's up again and swinging the knife at the air again and starts walking toward me ... decked him when he lunged. FINALLY some other people tried to hold him down on the floor. We move, I start whistling up a song. Spot a cop running up the stairs and away.
THANKSFULLY, a rookie came a running, and cuffed him. Discharge the train, railroad lays down, yada yada. The unofficial rule at the time was "TRY to avoid confrontation, but if you can't avoid it, just make sure the PO writes you up as not being stupid and the trainmaster will back you up." In other words, it was green over green for beating the qwap out of a "customer" ... only time I ever had to beat one up, damned lucky there was someone who came running. If this had gone over the bridge, I shudder to think of the consequences. :(
Never heard of one actually being used, though. Guess your job's just more "interesting". :)
Nowadays I'm in the antitrojan/antivirus business. Each day adds to the number of people that explain why we're not allowed to hook up Tesla coils to the phone lines in spite of the Carterphone decision. :)
Throw the damn book away! The test will be reading comprehension, simple math and knowledge of NYC.
Search the archives for the threads about the last T/O exam. The two tests will be very similar.
I bet on your yellow card that the N/R/Q is listed to get to 14th st/Union Square. Did they ever heard about the W? Mine says D/Q to Kings Highway. I should D/Q'd DCAS for their nearly 3 year old mistake.
Good luck!
BUSES, feh ... we're DEPARTMENT OF SUBWAYS! Scwoo'em. :)
Ironically, I also took the SAT there.
Da Hui
Dave
Chuck Greene
On the south side of the BPB bridge, I had some pretty nice shots. I tried to take some from the north side of the bridge, but the snow was, literally, knee deep! I abandoned that idea, and, used some information from the bus map I got which bus to take to get to the 2/5 train. I decided on the Bx26 to the Allerton Avenue station.
I took the Bx26 bus to the Allerton Avenue station, where a temporary platform had been built over the southbound local track (see my earlier thread, "Guess... (pic)" for a couple of pics). I tried to get a pic of the redbirds in Unionport, but there was a train in the way of my line-of-sight from the southbond 5 train I was on (I had taken a 5 from East 180 to Pelham Pkway). When I was on that train, I decided to go home, so I did.
The March of Dimes B Division Excursion Train will be operating
on the Leap Year Weekend 2004.
In their continuing support of the March of Dimes, Subdivision C of
the New York City Transit Authority will be sponsoring the 1st
Weekend of Excursions on February 28 & 29 using the Transit Museums
R-1\R-7a Trainset.
The routings are now being finalized and the Excursion Train will
operate over both sides, all four tracks of the fully opened
Manhattan Bridge. Lunch stop both days will be at Brighton Beach
Station on the Q Line.
Highlights of the trips include 2 runs on the S ~ Franklin Shuttle
and the aborted run, from December, to Bay Ridge, 95th Street.
Runs on the Broadway BMT in Manhattan.
Also Coney Island Yard. [Most likely on Saturday].
On Sunday, the D Express Route Brighton Beach to 205th Street via
the Manhattan Bridge. Return thru Concourse yard to Chambers Street.
And that's after lunch. [Most likely on Sunday.]
Brooklyn's BMT Lines to Coney Island will be covered both days. No
BMT Eastern Division or IND Queens Blvd. Lines.
The excursion train[s] depart 59th Street ~ Columbus Circle [A-C-D-1]
both days at 10:30 AM.
All tickets will be purchased on board the day of excursion.
Fares are $40 per trip for Adults and $20 per trip for children under 13.
No advance ticketing for 2004 excursions.
Please make all check payments payable to: "March Of Dimes".
In the event of equipment problems, other equipment may be substituted.
Changes to the route of the excursion trains may be made as needed due to extraordinary conditions.
And this is for February of the Centennial Year of the NYC Subway,
stay tuned for more later in the year. >GG<
8>) ~ Sparky
Read your tripper on line. Operator Training starts March 6th, not
February 28th.
8-) ~ Sparky
So that means the horrible L line suspension will be cancelled again?
And, (I know I’m going to regret this…) are the events for the next three years going to be held at 76th St?
Just wondering, would like to see one of these old trains someday, and if i do, I wanna make sure i get a "good" one.
Look at what operated in 2003: R-1/4/7A, SMEE's, straight Redbirds, and the D-Types. I've only ridden the first three, and they are all enjoyable. As far as the RIDING EXPERIENCE goes, I'd have to say I enjoy the R-1/4/7A set the best.
Let's just hope Kev doesn't attempt to take over that train!:)
--Mark
til next time
til next time
til next time
til next time
Would you really? YOU would be willing to give? Wow...
til next time
HOLY SH*T HE USED AN APOSTROPHE!!!!!!
Ok, so now we know you are just lazy. As such I will feel free to keep bugging you about not using apostrophes. Anyhow, "sometimes" is an understatement. Until now, I have NEVER seen you use any apostrophes and that failure makes you seem about as intelligent as a rock.
til next time
Woo-Hoo!
Chuck Greene
I lied.
Maye it's just as well. They'd have to physically pin me down to keep me from climbong onto the stap plates and working the doors.:)
Sure you don't want the local?
WOO HOO
til next time
Advance purchase was NEVER required. I hope you meant to say "Why is there no advance purchase of tickets option this year?"
I was plannng on doign a "4 crossings" railfan trip that friday.
Looks like I get to do it riding modern cars and nostalgic cars!
See on the trip(s)!
Chuck Greene
Then you really should invite John to come. Especiallyy if they are tall...
:0)
Only two cars?! ;)
8>) ~ Sparky
I think the organizer uses the rule, if it ain't broke don't fix it, i.e. they have the four cars working well togather, so why mess with that.
I was on the June trip that ended at Howard Beach because of a problem with two cars. They don't want to be in that position again.
Only time will tell ... so stay tuned. >GG<
8>) ~ Sparky
Oh... so it's the Tranit Museum's R-1/R-4/R-7A set.
Koi
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
I hope I have my digicam by that time... I'm so excited!
8>) ~ Sparky
Anyway, where is GP38 Chris. I need someone else to say they're not going so I don't feel as bad...LOL.
This was done with the D-types on the Memorial Day 2002 weekend. In fact, for the D-Types, we uncoupled one set and left it in the siding south of Prospect Park.
--Mark
I just can't miss this run, and the first time it's ever happened on the new trackage.
As for resturaunts in that area, I'm sure David knows them all.
Oh and don't forget Nathans at CI, it can be done if you have Unlimited Cards, it's a 10 minute bus ride there.
Nah, all the rogue SubTalkers will have just eaten there on B-day (Bridge Day). They won't be in the mood for it after how sick it made them.
As American Pig would say, they are wackos for eating at a place only 1,000 feet from the cold Atlantic Ocean with nothing else open. And they cannot get free refills on soda either, sure haypauls trash compactor will be put into good use for those who will need it..
I'd rather sit in a warm place, eating good food, talking and laughing, filling my appetite with Falafel and a cold salad bar. BTW: The restaurant we will be at, is finishing up a nice renovation. The lighting in the the dining room is much better than it was.
WASHINGTON -- Four words commuters in the D.C. area never want to hear: Fewer trains, reduced hours. Those are just a few of the options being explored by Metro's board to make up budget deficits.
Metro board members considered a number of service cuts at a Thursday meeting. The possibilities include closing some stations on the weekends and running two-car trains after 10:30 p.m. It also includes eliminating two dozen bus routes and spending less money cleaning stations.
The Cheverly, Capital Heights, Federal Center and Forest Glen stations would be affected under the plan.
Chris Zimmerman says some tough decisions have to be made, but he's not sure these cuts are the right answer.
"I think we have seen pretty definitively that If you want to take a first rate system, and make it a second rate system you can save some money."
Next week the board will examine fare increases and a final decision won't be made for several months.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
KSTP
Minnesota Public Radio
Metro-North instead permits their divisions to make the best choices in the interests of their passengers, and, in this snow emergency, those of us who were comfortable enough in a cold car chose to sit there instead of on a stranger's lap in a warm car. We appreciated having the option.
Mark
"Nick Coleman: Light rail to transform Minneapolis . . ."
http://www.startribune.com/stories/357/4345647.html
(click on the picture for a railfan window view!)
Mark
"I've driven along Hiawatha Avenue hundreds of times, but as the train picked up steam (electricity, actually) and headed downtown, the city seemed transformed into a new place. It seemed almost, well, don't laugh: cosmopolitan."
This right here you have to be observant and learn from experience. When I was stuck in the sprawl of O-town, I never got out of my car to walk or ride the bus for over a year. WOW did things look different when you get off the asphalt.
Same in Tampa, but not as long, the bay looks so different when you're in an Express bus, along with downtown(I never knew there were 15story garages there!). It's amazing how much you miss. Some business' may only get drive by traffic/customers, but I never notice more than half of them existing when I'm trying to fend for myself in urban speedways.
Then with the licenses and social engineering. Good story. I smell a Pulitzer.
Anyway, I'd like to really see this system, and the skyway they have. Maybe they can hook one of the stations up to the skyway downtown, and I'll never have to step outside. Because I'm not touching that weather they have!
Yeah, this isn't really worth much here, but I just wanted to have this out in the open.
David
The Agent can only make one call. Customers making multiple calls will get things to move faster.
The agent can only call and will talk to a supervisior who will in turn call the repair people. Samr thing when they call in to report someone hurt and needs EMS. It all depending how important the call is. One call won't be considered very important. Multiple calls will.
When the agent calls, get on the payphone and also make a call. 2 calls will make more of an impact than 1. Get more people to call in complaints and things will get done. They'll ignore an Agent's call. But they won't ignore customer complaints.
1]Houston Tx. Opens METROrail just in time for the Super Bowl,
2]NJT finally opens the River Line, the first application of diesel LRT in the USA, on 2/15/04
3]Light rail comes to the Twin Cities [late March/early April]
Not to mention last years opening.......
4] Finally, the JFK Airtrain opens linking the NYC Subway, and LIRR trains to JFK Airport
5] LA opens the Gold Line to Pasadena
Does this constitute a boom in Light Rail openings? All of these openings within 1 year, is something being done right?
Speaking of which, I spotted a rarity on Tuesday - a four-car train cruising n/b along Santa Fe Drive! It was out of service, on its way to the yard. But it moved along at a good clip between stations. Wish I had my camera...
I was once told by an RTD engineer that four-car trains can operate on our system at a "prudent" speed. Five-car trains cannot. The current draw would start tripping breakers. The system wasn't designed for loads like that.
Incidentally, the new stations along the Southeast Corridor will be built for three-car trains. If the line is ever extended further south, stations would be enlarged for four-car trains.
YOu can make the wires wire thin, and regular skinny poles in the center. It's no more distracting than a street or traffic light.
I personally still think OHLE is ugly. on the other hand, so are those streetlights.
Neither am I. It's bad for reliability and timekeeping. But sometimes it is the only way you can get a system built. For me, the best kind of rail rapid transit system is one that gets built. The worst kind is one that doesn't exist. Three cheers for NJT with the HBLR, NCS and SNJLR (whatever their faults). Two cheers for PANYNJ for the AirTrain. No cheers for the MTA, still without the SAS after 70+ years.
Here in the UK, three cheers for Manchester and Croydon, where disused rail ROW is mostly used, but onstreet running is adopted where it can't be avoided. Two cheers for Sheffield, which has too much onstreet running. And four cheers for the Docklands LR, which has no onstreet running and is the most reliable rail system in London!
And that's what you get for being bloody-minded and demanding no ugly OHLE!!!
You make an excellent point about Toronto.
It would be convenient to limit "light rail" to those systems that have tracks sharing or crossing automobile traffic *at some point* (St. Louis only has a few grade crossings; Buffalo and San Jose only share the street downtown); that would mean there HAS to be an operator. This makes Hudson-Bergen a light rail but not JFK. JFK would be an elevated people mover, like the Docklands Light Rail.
Is there a problem with this distinction? Just to avoid confusion?
THIS IS. A Brooklyn bound. Too EXPRESS train.
Haha... she's such a 'tard....
Da Hui
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I know exactly how she says that, and it's hilarious. XD
A disloated Bostonian (moi) is seeking a place that will be showing Sunday's big game on a television set bigger than his own 13" freebie from the real estate broker. If anyone knows of a place that will be showing the game on Sunday that's not a bar (as I'm under 21) and not ESPNzone (it'll be a zoo), PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE reply or email me. I'm really in a bind and I want to root my Pats on to another championship!
I'll be in the Times Square area starting around 5:45 p.m. so can pretty much get anywhere from 42nd St. within an hour [kick-off] on the subway.
Thanks.
Uhh... sounds like the T/O centered the reverse key. Maybe he had a red signal/holding lights/sick passenger and wanted to let go of the deadman for a bit.
After all, "Excelence in Broadcasting" (EIB) is ALL about "THE TRUTH" ... heh.
RUSH'S 'FANS' SAY LOYALTY HAS LIMITS
Dear Mr. Limbaugh, As president-elect of our local Rush Limbaugh Fan
Club, I've been deputized to write this letter regarding your recent
legal problems. Here in Gopher County some of your loyal followers are
upset about what they've been reading and hearing in the media, which
is run by a bunch of liberal pansies.
Anyhow, we were all real sorry to learn about you being a dope addict.
Naturally we didn't believe a word of the story until it came from
your own lips.
Seeing how you've been so hard-core against drug users on your radio
show - saying that they ought to be locked up with murderers and
rapists - it must've been hard on you to sneak around all those years,
pretending like you were some straight-up, sober citizen.
According to Palm Beach prosecutors, in only six months you got about
2,000 painkiller pills from pharmacies in your neighborhood.
When you do the arithmetic, that works out to at least 11 hits of
opiate-based analgesics a day - enough to put any lily-livered liberal
in the emergency room, yet it didn't even slow you down!
Speaking on behalf of your devoted radio listeners, most of us never
suspected that you were ripped to the gills. You always made perfect
sense to us.
Still, we were sympathetic when you explained that you'd been popping
pills because your back was hurting and then your eardrums were
hurting, and I forget what else was hurting.
Hey, it's a hard job, sitting in front of that microphone. You don't
get much exercise, except for the jaw muscles.
Admittedly, we got worried when you went into rehab, since the concept
was pretty much invented by mushy-hearted liberals who wanted to help
drug users instead of punish them. Thank goodness you were still a
diehard conservative when you came out!
But that, Mr. Limbaugh, is when the trouble began.
The authorities in Palm Beach have been investigating a drug ring that
allegedly supplied some of your pain pills. However, instead of
cooperating with law-enforcement officials, you've recently instructed
your attorney to stonewall.
To those who have followed you faithfully, it's mighty confusing.
You've always said that you were pro law-and-order, ranting about
criminal suspects who complained that their constitutional rights were
being violated.
Yet that's exactly what you're doing now, and you haven't even been
charged with anything.
Prosecutors want your medical records in order to make sure you didn't
scam overlapping prescriptions from different doctors, which is illegal.
It sure is strange to hear you talk about privacy as something so
important. Remember all the laughs you got out of Monica Lewinsky's
situation?
Imagine what would've happened if the special prosecutors had listened
to her pleas for privacy. There would have been no impeachment of Bill
Clinton, and America would have been deprived of hours of your laser
wit and acid commentary.
Speaking of Ken Starr, why didn't you hire him to be your defense
lawyer? A solidly upright, uptight ultraconservative. This Roy Black
fellow might be one of the country's best trial attorneys, but are you
aware that he has represented murderers, thieves, drug kingpins and -
worst of all - one of the Kennedys! You can't get more liberal than
that.
Even for the most dedicated Limbaugh listeners (and here in Gopher
County we've been steadfast), this is too much to swallow.
Next thing we know, you'll be telling us that Dick Gephardt spiked
your Lipitors with Xanax. Or that Howard Dean got you hooked on those
OxyContins (he is a doctor, right?)
Please, Rush, don't go down this slippery slope. With every passing
day you act more like the "whiny wimps" you've been ridiculing all
these years.
Here in the land of the right-wing and the righteous, we're loyal but
we have our limits.
We can forgive you for being a pillhead - but never for being a
liberal.
(sorry, couldn't resist ... it was on Channel 11, GOTTA be true! Heh)
I personally am going to try to avoid it. Something about big steep bridges and this area I don't have good experiences on. I'm always(read 100% fo the time) behind someone with out of state tags creeping up to the top of the hill, and riding their brakes all the way to the bottom. I got a 4cyl and can't afford new brakes, so, I'm not going to be on it.
But do you know anything about those trains or shuttles taht were supposed to link up to the beach? I read articles from a long time ago about demonstator projects, and that reserved right of way their building. Could you imagine the fortune one could probably make with a garage on the mainland and some decent transport? The hotels may even sponsor you somehow, if they aren't all bought out by condos by then.
Jeff "always schemeing into overdrive" W
The manatee's of cars.
:)
But that bridge is a killer on a small car when you get a bonehead that won't build momentum, and I can't believe anyone would ride their brakes down a steep grade, i'm shocked their wheels don't start flaming.
Destroying that elevated structure will probably cost tens of millions to tear down and replace. I can assure there will be no funds when the discussion comes around to building the structure several years from now.
Sat 1/31 1:00 pm 2 NY2
Get DirecTV and "move"
;)
http://www.cbsnewyork.com/homepage/
Elway put Denver on the map. He is as synonimous with Denver as the R-10s are with the A.
http://www.cbsnewyork.com/homepage/
The pictures following this nice one of a departing train are not for the feint of heart.
And here is the evil doer itself. BOOOOOOO!!! What a waste of capital funding.
At least they kept the classic signal heads and upgraded them with LED arrays so we know they should hang on for another decade at least.
Here's her address: 1234 Market Street, Phila PA 19107
If there is one thing we can be mad about is that they could have re-used the relitivly new A-10's pulled off the MFL to replace worn out switches at Fern Rock and let the A-10's fully depriciate before spring for brand new switches.
You all can check the pics and tell me which hardware you find to be cooler.
As much as you decry progress, you and Sallamm should be in lock-step crying about the Redbirds and the "loss" of the railfan window.
Or at least a 2005 Switches and Signals calendar!
You're probably right if it's a twice a day job so that trains can single-track to allow maintenance overnight, or perhaps even if trains alternate every 10 minutes between two branches.
Jeez Mike, get a life! Enjoy some modern conveniences once in a while.
Sounds exactly like the halfassed efforts we have in Britain. Some prat decided after privatisation to switch from Solid State Interlocking to Computer Based Interlocking as a matter of policy, with the obvious results of over-complicated crappy infrastructure and huge costs.
Coming back to the main thrust of your post, why are electric switches of necessity worse than electropneumatic ones (since I presume the logic is still electric!?) You mentioned a third of a second throw time. I don’t see why it isn’t possible to design a reliable, heavy-duty points electric points motor that can do that.
It probably won’t sound as good as the satisfying hiss you get from an electropneumatic point, but it should do the job.
Is your complaint nostalgia-based, or is the quality control of the electric point motor manufacturers just lacking?
Both the US&S M-3 and GRA Model 5 have been around since at least the 20's and possibly earlier. This is not "new" technology. However, back in the day railroads were willing to spend money for quality. Today maintainence is something to be eliminated even if it means delays and crappy service.
David
By STEPHANIE GASKELL and CLEMENTE LISI
January 30, 2004 -- Mayor Bloomberg blasted the MTA yesterday for spending $231 million on new Metro-North rail cars, saying the state agency has "forgotten" about the city's transit needs.
"I think the MTA has sort of forgotten that they were created to be a regional transportation system, and the center of the region is right here in the city," he said.
Bloomberg lashed out against the MTA after it approved a plan that allows for the purchase of 120 rail cars, arguing it would set a bad precedent when it comes to formulating the agency's 2005-2009 capital plan.
The MTA has typically doled out 75 percent of its capital funding to the city and 25 percent to the suburbs — a figure that dwindles to 72 percent after yesterday's decision.
The board engaged in a heated debate before approving the measure, 7-3.
Bloomberg appointees Susan Kupferman, Mark Lebow and Mark Page voted against the plan.
"This has serious ramifications," Kupferman said.
"It shortchanges bus and subway riders."
Or maybe I'm just to use to the M1/M3's to appreciate a M7.
Agreed. I love the strident electro-mechanical sounds of the cars, there are nice lighting effects and the colors of the lights really stand out on the trains. You ever hear M7 trains passing on elevated structures, like the Babylon Branch? Cool servo-motor sounds, whirring, almost like the robots you used to see on 1950s-era science fiction movies.
NYCT does have easier operating conditions as far as the weather is concerned.
There has been a light powdery snow on MNRR lines for 3 consecutive weeks now. It has never consolidated because it hasn't gotten above freezing to melt and refreeze.
If the equipment has a design flaw that makes it vulnerable to that kind of snow, it's not the fault of current management. They're fixing them as fast as they can.
What I was really seeking was a response from John who seems to continually make meaningless statements without any real data or information. How does a person say that one car accellerates faster than another wwhen he has no figures for either? OR how does he say running times for one car class are shorter wheen they run on the same schedule as the other car class?
I'm still amused over the "hippo" silliness ... I moved out of the city before the 68's came to town so had no "subjective criteria" until Christmas of 2001 when I encountered them for the first time - and while 75 footers are a bit slower in getting there than 60 footers, I was quite amused seeing that they were just as good on the uptake as the 44's and 46's I remembered when I left the city. And just about as fast as the 32's which I always remembered as speedsters. Funny thing about the ability to calibrate acceleration and braking rates - they all seemed to run the SAME - a luxury "transit" didn't have in the prewar car days where "you got what you got, and you can tweak to your heart's content, THIS is what you got." :)
Five years almost, and still LOVING subtalk. Heh.
When has he ever been a civil servant? The guy thinks that NYC is a buisness. Well, maybe all that pot he smokes may have clouded his judgemen.
But hey ... take off the railroad cap, face Washington and repeat after me - A WARING BLENDER CAN GOVERN ... can I GET a hallelujah?
Somebody give the poor b***ards some trains.
Bloomberg obviously knows nothing about MNRR rolling stock. Maybe he should ride an ACMU-1100 car, and then get back and repeat his uneducated statements. These cars have outlived their useful lives by at least a dozen years!
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
Possibly not.
But I personally ride MNRR every day and am quite happy with their rolling stock.
Nothing wrong with that.
Does he know about mnrr rolling stock. NO
"Mayor Bloomberg blasted the MTA yesterday for spending $231 million on new Metro-North rail cars, saying the state agency has "forgotten" about the city's transit needs.
"I think the MTA has sort of forgotten that they were created to be a regional transportation system, and the center of the region is right here in the city," he said."
Yes, the railfan portals on the ACMU's and the railfan windows on the M-1a's are better than anything you can get from an M-7.
If Metro-North has to seek an additional subsidy from NYCT to cover the M-7 purchase, then apparently the Metro-North fare didn't go up enough to pay for the M-7 purchase. That's not NYCT's problem.
Analogy: I want to buy a new car for $20,000, but I can only afford to spend $15,000. A mutual friend suggests that you pitch in $5,000. Unless you're in a particularly generous mood, chances are that you'll turn down the suggestion. Are you saying that I shouldn't get a new car? Of course not -- all you're saying is that, if I do get a new car, you won't pay for it. Whether I get a second job to earn the additional $5,000 or I cut back on expenses elsewhere to scrounge up the $5,000 or I do without the new car after all isn't your concern.
Do you have a source or are you just making it up?
If the analogy is that I own a car and you own a car, then there shouldn't be regional transportation planning. MNRR should be run as a profit-making commuter railroad into GCT, it should rent its tracks to Amtrak for whatever it can demand, it should get no income from bridge tolls, and my commuting costs should be six hundred a month. Of course, your subway fare would be five dollars.
It did perfectly well without an MTA for over 300 years, 64 of those with a subway.
True. Hoever, I would argue that New York's economy would not be as good as it is if the commuter rail lines were of the quality they were circa 1966, with the Penn Central and LIRR making Manhattan a terrible place to commute to. NYC relies on its suburbs for a vibrant economy, as well as vice versa.
Or maybe I'm just to use to the M1/M3's to appreciate a M7.
Agreed. I love the strident electro-mechanical sounds of the cars, there are nice lighting effects and the colors of the lights really stand out on the trains. You ever hear M7 trains passing on elevated structures, like the Babylon Branch? Cool servo-motor sounds, whirring, almost like the robots you used to see on 1950s-era science fiction movies.
NYCT does have easier operating conditions as far as the weather is concerned.
There has been a light powdery snow on MNRR lines for 3 consecutive weeks now. It has never consolidated because it hasn't gotten above freezing to melt and refreeze.
If the equipment has a design flaw that makes it vulnerable to that kind of snow, it's not the fault of current management. They're fixing them as fast as they can.
What I was really seeking was a response from John who seems to continually make meaningless statements without any real data or information. How does a person say that one car accellerates faster than another wwhen he has no figures for either? OR how does he say running times for one car class are shorter wheen they run on the same schedule as the other car class?
I'm still amused over the "hippo" silliness ... I moved out of the city before the 68's came to town so had no "subjective criteria" until Christmas of 2001 when I encountered them for the first time - and while 75 footers are a bit slower in getting there than 60 footers, I was quite amused seeing that they were just as good on the uptake as the 44's and 46's I remembered when I left the city. And just about as fast as the 32's which I always remembered as speedsters. Funny thing about the ability to calibrate acceleration and braking rates - they all seemed to run the SAME - a luxury "transit" didn't have in the prewar car days where "you got what you got, and you can tweak to your heart's content, THIS is what you got." :)
Five years almost, and still LOVING subtalk. Heh.
When has he ever been a civil servant? The guy thinks that NYC is a buisness. Well, maybe all that pot he smokes may have clouded his judgemen.
But hey ... take off the railroad cap, face Washington and repeat after me - A WARING BLENDER CAN GOVERN ... can I GET a hallelujah?
The Metropolitan Transportation Authority board yesterday approved Metro-North Railroad's plan to buy 120 new M-7 cars for use on the Hudson and Harlem lines.
Metro-North Railroad had planned to buy the cars in about 16 months, but sped up the purchase to get old, unreliable cars off the tracks faster and replace them next year with equipment that will travel longer between failures. The purchase also will save the railroad $20,000 per car, or $2.4 million, and avoid a $10.3 million overhaul of 96 old M-1 cars.
The MTA still must seek approval from the state's capital program review board. If the purchase gets a go-ahead, the trains could begin arriving a year from now.
Commuters this month have suffered through frequent break-downs and ridden in overcrowded, delayed trains because of electrical problems caused by blowing snow and melting ice. On-time performance nose-dived, and so did the railroad's reputation.
Susan Kupferman, a board member who represents New York City, voted against the purchase, along with both other city representatives, railroad spokeswoman Marjorie Anders said.
Anders said Kupferman noted that the purchase might set a precedent by altering the way capital program resources are allocated in increasing the amount devoted to suburban railroads at the expense of subways and buses. Kupferman said the purchase would change the split from its current 75 percent for subways and 25 percent for the commuter railroads to 72 percent for transit and 28 percent for commuter railroads.
To fund the $237.7 million purchase, the railroad wants to sell $208.8 million in MTA bonds, which had been designated for sale early next year. The remaining money would come from the railroad's contingency fund, savings and other sources.
Reach Caren Halbfinger at chalbfin@thejournalnews.com or 914-694-5004.Reach Caren Halbfinger at chalbfin@thejournalnews.com or 914-694-5004.
Females tend to make local stops.. males tend to make express stops...
Remember the "AA"? The "AA" was the female version of the "A" line. It ran local. So that goes to show you that the female tends to be a local.
N Bwy
Has the nice effect that women are usually shorter than men. I guess the CC Line could have been a model then.
But aren't women supposed to be faster? Or do you think they stop more often? ;-)
Only if they're East German athletes.
Or do you think they stop more often?
Depends how many stops peddling expensive junk there are on that stretch...
The "CC" was definitely not a female. It's more a teenage male. The "B" is also a teenage male.
I could never figure out why, in printing, an en space is called a "nut" and an em quad a "mutt". They still sound pretty alike.
I wouldn't called the "W" "Whenever". I will call it wonderful..
plus, It runs very well.
All I know are (that mom uses):
(B) is Boy
(D) is Diamond
(L) is Larry
(N) is Nancy.
Please allow an extra 8 minutes travel time.
But of course, if you've read various posts, the MTA is depriving you of the choice between 9 and 12 PM each day and during the weekend when there will be no 6tb Avenue service on the Brighton line nor any easy access to it.
-Go Uptown to 34th st and transfer to the Q OR
-Go to Pacific St and take a long-ass walk through the passageway to the Q at the Brighton side.
Does the 6 go to Brooklyn? Remember the passageway to the Uptown side is not built yet so you cannot go up to 14th st.
If you're arguing that Brighton passengers are being mistreated (compared to other subway passengers) because they're being forced to make an unusually difficult transfer, you lose, since the transfer at Atlantic-Pacific is a piece of cake compared to many other transfers around the system, and the vast majority of Brighton passengers won't need to use it anyway.
A more persuasive argument is that Brighton passengers are being unnecessarily inconvenienced. The inconvenience might not be huge, but it might as well be avoided, even at the risk of introducing merging delays on the D.
Until the elevators open at the complex, it is a pice of cake if you are going TO Brighton platform. If you are transferring FROM Brighton to Pacific, it's a totally different story will a lot of climbing upstairs to do.
-Go Uptown to 34th st and transfer to the Q OR
-Go to Pacific St and take a long-ass walk through the passageway to the Q at the Brighton side.)
I took a walk through the Atlantic Ave. station today. The transfer is going to be a lot nicer than in the past as soon as the construction is finished. I was very impressed.
In any event, didn't the Brighton local historically go through the tunnel 24/7? Count your blessings!
But is it anywhere near as convenient as getting off a D train at DeKalb and waiting for the next train which is something that would be very easy for NYC Transit to do if they cared one bit for many of their passengers.
Never.
Maybe some day I'll agree with you about this, but probably not until my old line gets back an easy transfer (or ride) to B'way.
What about from Grand Street? Or W 4th Street?
No, I agree, but I'm not finished with the new graphics yet.
Good luck on finding that special something.
Beautiful stuff. Clear, clean, nice white space.
I wouldn't know... when you shrink it to "portrait" mode everything gets so small that my old eyes can't see it :-(
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Actually, once my work schedule lightens up (end of February), I can get back to the "NYC Transit in the 1980s" article that I'm half-way done with.
--Mark
Who re-recorded the announcements on the 5?
That is my dream, along with people searching the archives, but it will never happen in a million years. People here are too damn lazy.
Actually, I quite frequently get complaints that the site is not easy to navigate. Usually by people upset they didn't find what they wanted, but it means there's always improvements to be made.
Somebody give the poor b***ards some trains.
Bloomberg obviously knows nothing about MNRR rolling stock. Maybe he should ride an ACMU-1100 car, and then get back and repeat his uneducated statements. These cars have outlived their useful lives by at least a dozen years!
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
Possibly not.
But I personally ride MNRR every day and am quite happy with their rolling stock.
Nothing wrong with that.
Does he know about mnrr rolling stock. NO
I've seen people yapping away while on the line when entering the school. They simply end the conversations and turn off the phones when getting close to the school's entrance.
Good luck!
Show up without one, and people will think you're a POLITICAL APPOINTEE who is too IMPORTANT to be bothered with a leash. Probably get a TSS to take the test FOR you out of fear that Paturkey sent ya. :)
LOL.
i railfaned along the 5 line to Dyre Av.passing the unionport yard,i noticed a redbird set sitting on one of the yard tracks.going back to manhattan i manage to get 2 of the car numbers.
(7924,7925 9400,9401)looked at the numbers and also noted that they
had every redbird class(R26,R28,R33ML,R36WF)at least the MTA did something smart here.why did they save them?they could be used for fantrips,it would be a waste just to let them sit there and rust.
and how many redbirds did the MTA save?i know they saved 6 cars for evnts,but did they save more?
til next time
are the cars at UP.
There are a few dozen more at Concourse.
#3 West End Jeff
til next time
til next time
til next time
til next time
til next time
(BTW it's not a secret anymore so this is kinda pointless...)
Simple and sweet.
David
til next time
Da Hui
til next time
David
1.company
i,am a big Kawasaki fan and there subway cars are one of the best.out
of all the NYC subway cars they did,i only like 3 the R68A,R142A and
the R143.
2.LED
to me the R142 seem to have better looking LED,s.their bright and easy
to read.
3.motor tone
i relly like the motor sound it makes as it starts to run and as the
train breaks to a stop.there also on the R143,s.
i also like the PA system,and lighting too is cool.i,ll admitt the
R142 have a smooth ride on those long express run,no shake,no nothing.
and they also have good lighting too.but i,ll stick with the R142A.
til next time
You'll also stick to using commas exclusively and not apostrophes.
Stop being such a loser for picking on somebody who doesn't use proper grammar.
I will NOT forgive you. Had you searched the archives first you would have found posts about this.
R-26 Car Nos. 7750-7859 Originally painted kale green.
R-28 Car Nos. 7860-7959 Originally painted kale green.
R-29 Car Nos. 8570-8805 Originally painted cardinal red.
R-33 Car Nos. 8806-9305 Originally painted cardinal red.
R-33WF Car Nos. 9306-9345 Originally painted in the blue World's Fair scheme.
R-36WF Car Nos. 9346-9523 and 9558-9769 Originally painted in the blue World's Fair scheme.
R-36ML Car Nos. 9524-9557 Originally painted cardinal red.
#3 West End Jeff
Dependds on who you ask. IMO the best redbird fleet was the R30. followed by the R17. 6688 is a great redbird :-P
#3 West End Jeff
David
#3 West End Jeff
Maybe "Arch Roof" would be a better grouping ?
But it's not a catchy a phrase :-(
#3 West End Jeff
"Mayor Bloomberg blasted the MTA yesterday for spending $231 million on new Metro-North rail cars, saying the state agency has "forgotten" about the city's transit needs.
"I think the MTA has sort of forgotten that they were created to be a regional transportation system, and the center of the region is right here in the city," he said."
Start laughing everyone.
This, however, was an editorial mistake that is simply inexcusable, especially if there actually such signs posted in stations.
So there isn't intelligent life at the MTA headquaters.
Either way. they do need better people to print signs. There was one DUH! that I believe you neglected to mention...About a month or two ago, on one of the "weekend service changes" posters I saw that listed descriptions of service advisories for every route, they mentioned that there were no (7) trains to Time Square.
Left off the last "S" for savings?
Left off the last "S" for savings?
I guess they needed the S to move people to Grand Central.
Are there any pictures of the LIRR M-7's testing on the Metro North?
Open space within the Pelham Parkway subway station has the potential to become a concession or newsstand.-PHOTO BY WALTER POLFELDT/AR
Riders of the Number 5 subway line will soon have a more accessible way of buying their morning paper and coffee, as the MTA recently put out a Request for Proposals (RFP), soliciting developers’ plans to turn unused space at the Pelham Parkway, Gun Hill Road, and Baychester Avenue stations into retail stores.
According to an MTA spokesperson, the three stations all have available space at the ground level.
The Pelham Parkway Station, 2218 Esplanade Avenue, has an available space that is approximately 240 square feet with a suggested use as a newsstand or concession booth. The average weekly customer count at the station is 6,806.
The Baychester Avenue Station, 3423 Baychester Avenue, has an available space recommended for retail or concession that measures approximately 365 square feet. The average weekly station customer count at the station is 3,586.
The Gun Hill Road station, 1374 East Gun Hill Road, has a 710 square foot space recommended for retail, concession or newsstand use. The average weekly station customer count is 5,521.
Security deposits for all three sites are for three months, with 10-year term license agreements. Proposals are due February 25. An MTA spokesperson said all businesses will hopefully be operational by late summer.
For info visit http://mta.info/mta/realestate/retail_leasing.html, or call (212) 878-7049.
The Board of Education's website (or whatever they call themselves now) is at nycenet.edu
So now how do I get from Albertus Ave in Corona to Mott Ave in the Bronx? (j/t)
Or stay on the 2nd Ave. El to 57th St. Transfer to an uptown 2nd Ave. El heading towards the Bronx. Get off at 138th St. and walk west to Mott Ave.
Or if you return to the 21st century take the #7 to Grand Central and transfer to an uptown #4* or #5 to 138/Grand Concourse.
(*except in PM rush hours).
You must work for the companies trying to get an extra 10¢ out of David! :-)
You didn't see my smiley face.
:0)
But then you're not Hindu at all. ;)
There are a ton of NY-references in the Simpsons. I wonder if anyone can name them all... I do know American Pig had a list of all (or most) rail-related references.
This should probably help if not then check the Queens bus map. The Q85 runs on Springfield and 143 Av should be in between there since it turns off of 140 Av.
http://njscuba.net/reefs/site_path_cars.html
The information I need concerns construction details: gauge (thickness) and type of steel used in interior and exterior walls, roof, and end caps.
This might be found in contract specifications, blueprint drawings, or maintenance records. A patent number for that model car would also be useful. St Louis Car Company apparently went out of business in 1973.
The information is needed within the next week to ten days.
Thanks in advance for any assistance.
Rich Galiano
NJScuba.net
PS:
One more look at the Redbirds
Are there any pictures of the LIRR M-7's testing on the Metro North?
Bill "Newkirk"
This station is... 125th Street.
This is the train to... Grand Central.
The next station is... Grand Central.
Beep...Beep...Beep...WhiRrrRrrRrrRrrrrrr Click!
Yes, the railfan portals on the ACMU's and the railfan windows on the M-1a's are better than anything you can get from an M-7.
If Metro-North has to seek an additional subsidy from NYCT to cover the M-7 purchase, then apparently the Metro-North fare didn't go up enough to pay for the M-7 purchase. That's not NYCT's problem.
Analogy: I want to buy a new car for $20,000, but I can only afford to spend $15,000. A mutual friend suggests that you pitch in $5,000. Unless you're in a particularly generous mood, chances are that you'll turn down the suggestion. Are you saying that I shouldn't get a new car? Of course not -- all you're saying is that, if I do get a new car, you won't pay for it. Whether I get a second job to earn the additional $5,000 or I cut back on expenses elsewhere to scrounge up the $5,000 or I do without the new car after all isn't your concern.
Do you have a source or are you just making it up?
If the analogy is that I own a car and you own a car, then there shouldn't be regional transportation planning. MNRR should be run as a profit-making commuter railroad into GCT, it should rent its tracks to Amtrak for whatever it can demand, it should get no income from bridge tolls, and my commuting costs should be six hundred a month. Of course, your subway fare would be five dollars.
Go, search!
Has one set of related DUHs. Any takers on what got forgotten (and what is still listed)?
Multiple DUH's yet.
1. The Q Diamond's still there.
2. The B/D not listed as going to Brooklyn.
3. The W still goes into Brooklyn.
4. The Grand Street Shuttle is still there.
5. Any routes other than the W (D soon enough) are heading to Stillwell Avenue.
6. The B DOES stop at DeKalb.
7. Any error in the service guide on the map.
Did I miss anything?
Several local pols are already looking at mis-management of the agency, ethics problems at a high level in regards to a disbility transport contract as well as the overall problems in management of the Light Rail.
The general feeling is that the Administration is out of control. Some are starting to take the attitude that the only solution to the agancy's problems is to trash everything and start over.
The bus side is totally screwed up and the rail side is just short of being screwed up.
I get the MTA e-mail notices. Other news about it is:
The lines are switching terminals: Starting Sunday, Feb 1, the lines will be Hunt Valley <-> BWI and Penn Station <-> Cromwell Rd. Of course while the construction takes place, everything goes to Camden Yards only.
Here is the completion schedule I got in today's e-mail...
The Light Rail closures will last until approximately October 1, although the following stops are scheduled to reopen earlier:
„h approximately July 1- regular Light Rail service opens for all stops down to North Linthicum.
„h approximately September 1- regular service opens for all stops down to Cromwell Station.
„h approximately October 1- BWI spur will reopen.
Finally the biggest problem with the line is the 18 minutes it takes to go 2 miles from Pratt St. to North Ave. And the worst part is Baltimore to Center Sts. Traffic lights that favored the LRT would help as would maybe banning cars from that stretch of Howard St. Who know what will work?
Philadelphia managed to keep the 12th street trolley running during Convention Center construction by building a temporary bypass track. (Pretty amazing to watch those big PCC cars lift themselves from the at-street level rail to the sitting on top of the street temporary track and later thudding back down again, at very slow speed of course.)
And of course NY managed to build the entire 63rd street connection north of Queens Plaza without any curtailment of service, a task vastly more complex than double tracking above ground on an existing right of way.
Let's hope the outcry is loud enough to shame those folks into trying a little harder.
http://www.btco.net/cgi/YaBB.cgi?board=present;action=display;num=1075432741
There is no logic in the decision.
One thing pointed out on the BTCO forums is that nobody, inside or outside, has any idea where the additional buses will come from. MTA has been using the buses set aside for the shuttles on school trippers, plus those buses are the oldest in the fleet.
Plus, to everybody's total amazement, the idiots at the MTA have the line shut down during the baseball season and the south end carries 60% of the ridership.
My acerbic comment is "the inmates are running the asylum".
I wonder how the people affected south of Baltimore are taking this ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Badly already. The shit is already hitting the fan, politicians are starting to get involved, and the broadcast media are running the item on all the newscasts.
We will be hearing much more in the coming days.
But I think it needed to be done. I'm grateful government is taking public works more seriously, and building for beauty and permanence.
I hope we never never go back to the post-WWII mentality of build cheap, defer maintenance and let future people worry about the results.
:)
When I was in DC on the 17th, I saw this sign on the Blue Line on the above-ground section of track between Arlington Cemetery and Pentagon. Heading towards Pentagon, a sign to the right of the tracks said "BEGIN OPS 3". On the opposite side was a sign "BEGIN OPS 2".
Anyone have any idea what these mean? They look to be old enough to have been placed there with the Blue Line's opening in the 70's, but I could be wrong.
Also, for railfans, these are quite easily seen from the railfan window on that stretch of track in both directions, but not as easily seen from the side windows.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
David
David
Yes. It's powered by several politicians.
David
David
: ) Elias
Sorry, couldn’t resist…
Da Hui
Da Hui
On the flip side, the last 2-3 cities I've lived in, yes, the malls are boring. The closest one to me right now, 95% of the stores are womens stores. The percentage is probably higher now since one or both of hte bookstores closed.
I guess since there's no guy stuff left in there, all I can do is sit in the foodcourt and stare if you get what i mean.
I could never spend a day in one though, spending time is also a good sociological thing. You can see what type of neighborhood you're in by the mix of people. Which is really my biggest reason for exploring them.
I guess I don't buy many things. That which is needed, I find at other outlets. They used to be a good spot to pick up girls, but that's true anywhere anyway. At most, I will go to a "box store" center. Where the stores at least have seperate buildings.
But that's just me. I ain't putting anyone down for going to a mall. It just isn't my thing.
Sarge, I figured that you of all people would realize that John IS shopping for women -- just not in the context you meant it. For all his struggles, at least he's figured out that there will be a whole lot more ladies at the mall than there will be at Branford in February... You can't catch a fish if your line isn't in the water!
CG
* = which I suppose would allow the ferry to be tossed into the transportational mix.
And of course the Mills corporation is the best. How far along is Meadowland Mills?
I wonder if there's any other companies left.
Glimcher Realty Trust owns my favorite one around the area, but I'm not sure if they do anymore than that.
"Its the things that we all do, its the things that Westfield do!"
Finding a department store to replace Stern's would have been difficult because there aren't many department store chains in a expansion mode. Sears, maybe, but there are any number of reasons why Simon didn't snag them. Neiman-Marcus has very few stores, and may not have wanted to go head-to-head with Nordstrom's.
...not the least of which being that they seem to be very happy with their stand alone location less than 2 miles away in downtown Garden City.
You know, I really want to respond to that canard, but I feel I should first learn what town you live in and how old you are. Because if you're at least 14, jumping on the bus shouldn't be a problem. The only thing I can figure is you live on the north shore. Here are the buses that go to that mall:
S45,S42,2A,2B,3A,3B,3C.
So maybe your journey would take you through Wyandanch, or Brentwood or C.I. Really, not a big deal. (If it turns out you're over 14) Just get on the bus, boy. C'mon, don't be scared to ride through these areas. People are people. It's not like you will always be able to avoid contact with "bad areas" in your lifetime. And do you want to walk around afraid of things different from you? Not a good plan.
`sides, it'll be good practice for when you want to visit some choice malls like Newport in Jersey City, or Albee Square Mall in downtown Brooklyn!
p.s.: Personally, I liked the S.S.M. back when it WASN'T enclosed. Seemed more natural a shopping environment, exposed to the elements. Enclosed malls suck big time.
He's twice that age... unemployed, proud of the fact that he lives on public assistance, leeching off the honest taxpayers of this world. Whines about being short; complains that he can't find a girlfriend to support him because of that. I could go on and on, but I'll spare you; look back through the archives if you really want to for the rest of the sordid details.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Else, you ain't got much to look forward to. Life is gonna be like a checkerboard...and you'll find you won't be able to jump your way over the bad squares, sometimes.
P.S. Coco bread ruins the taste of a beef paddy. When I was a cop in Brooklyn I used to buy them all the time at the Tower Island factory on Atlantic & Hopkinson Boylan and it's much better without the coco bread!!!
Brentwood and Central Islip are somewhat run-down in spots but I wouldn't call either place a hard-core ghetto by any means. It's very unlikely that you'd encounter any danger in changing buses.
Are you referring to Meadowlands Xanadu? Groundbreaking has not begun yet (AFAIK, anyway), but from the looks of the Mills website, it looks like it's gonna be something else!
All I know is they better get that HBLR branch in there IN ADDITION to the regular train spur from Secaucus Junction!
I guess some environmentally sensitive southern states can learn a lot from this. If that was down here, not only would it have been approved immediately, i'm sure the state DEP would come in and wipe out the last of the endangered species to get it built faster.
My question: Where the fuck did SEPTA get the idea to put square wheels on all their trains? These guys are like what the CTA was ten years ago, and probably even make LIRR look like a halfway-decent operation.
For the past two weeks I've been making multiple trips to NYC for job interviews and to meet with prospective roommates. Due to the crappy condition of my car and also due to the crappy weather, my typical itinerary goes something like this:
1) SEPTA R8 train from Queen Lane to 30th Street Station
2) SEPTA R7 from 30th Street to Trenton
3) NJ Transit from Trenton to Penn Station
I do my stuff in NYC, and then reverse the process for the trip home.
It's a royal pain in the ass, but better than any of the alternatives available to me at the time. If my car were working properly and the weather were better, I would have driven to Hamilton and taken New Jersey Transit from there, cutting SEPTA out of the picture altogether. But then, if frogs had wings, they wouldn't bump their asses when they hop.
I didn't complain on Thursday and Friday of last week, when I cought the last SEPTA train to Philadelphia on the way home, putting me at 30th Street Station well after the last R8 train had left and forcing me to spend $20 for a taxi each night to get home. After all, it's my own dumb fault for not looking at the timetables more carefully and scheduling appointments in NYC so late in the evening.
I didn't complain when my R7 train to Trenton on Monday morning was delayed for 30 minutes becuase somebody apparently saw a snowflake hit the ground, making me miss my NJT connection at Trenton. (Luckily, unlike SEPTA, New Jersey Transit runs their trains on decent headways, so I wasn't forced to wait around in the lovely Trenton train station more than a few minutes.)
I didn't complain on Monday night when the 10:39 SEPTA train from Trenton had a family with two screaming kids the entire trip, nor when the father decides to change one of the kid's diapers on the train, stinking up the entire coach, nor when they held the train at North Philly for 10 minutes while they unloaded all six hundred pieces of luggage they had with them, almost making me miss my connection to the R8 yet again. But this wasn't SEPTA's fault, and the conductor was clearly pissed-off as well.
I didn't complain Tuesday night when my R8 train back home was delayed for 15 minutes because a switch failed between Suburban Station and 30th Street Station.
I didn't complain on Monday morning on the way to Trenton on the R7, when the engineer kept overshooting the platforms at two or three stations, forcing the train to back up to get to the platform. (Nevermind the fact that this is how one of the worst rail accidents in Chicago happened, in 1972.) Even though this delayed our arrival in Trenton, I was still able to make my connection to NJT.
I was moderately pissed when I discovered that I'm paying almost 50% more for the SEPTA segments of the trip ($3 to 30th Street, then $7 to Trenton) than for the NJT segments (just over $7 to Penn Station), even though the NJT segments cover about twice the distance and offers far better service on far more comfortable trains.
The best-laid plans of mice and men all came unraveled on Wednesday night, though. After a job interview Wednesday afternoon in Midtown and meeting with a prospective roommate in Williamsburg that evening, I made a very conscious effort to get back to Penn Station by 9:00 PM, so I could catch the 9:10 PM NJ Transit train to Trenton, the 10:39 SEPTA R7 train to 30th Street Station, and then the 11:40 PM SEPTA R8 train to my apartment.
The 9:10 New Jersey Transit train was a few minutes late leaving Penn Station (and mind you, this is the first time I've been on a late NJT train ever). But we soon loaded up, and departed Penn Station no more than five minutes behind schedule. There were no further delays during the rest of the trip.
So what do the rocket scientists at SEPTA do when they find out that the incoming NJT train is running a measley five minutes late? They decide they're actually going to run on time for the first time in SEPTA history, and our NJT train pulls into Trenton just in time to see the tail lights of the fucking SEPTA train leaving the station! What mother-fucking, cock-sucking assholes!
Not only does this mean I now get to wait around the freezing-cold shithole of a train station in Trenton for the next 1.5 hours with my thumb up my ass along with about 20 other extremely pissed-off SEPTA commuters until the next (and last) SEPTA train leaves Trenton, this also means I'll miss my R8 train back home. And thanks to spending five of the past seven days travelling between NYC and Philly, I'm literally down to my last dime and can't afford a cab ride from 30th Street station.
Luckily I was able to borrow somebody's cell phone and call my one friend in Philly who actually owns a car and who lives within a couple miles of 30th Street Station, and arrange to have him pick me up at 2:00 AM and give me a ride home. Fortunately, he's a regular SEPTA rider and felt my pain, and was able to oblige. Now I owe him yet another dinner.
It's my understanding that New Jersey Transit will generally wait for a SEPTA train as long as it's only a few minutes late. You'd think SEPTA would return the courtesy, but apparently that's not the case. You'd also have to wonder if the crew of the 10:39 SEPTA train was wondering why their train was probably nearly empty when it left Trenton. Curse them! Curse them! Curse them!
[/RANT]
Aside from my SEPTA follies, by trips to NYC have been productive. I had four job interviews over the past week, and I think at least two of them went very well. Hopefully I'll be hearing back from them within the next few days.
I've also looked at about a million different rooms for rent, mostly in Brooklyn. Most were either nice apartments located in crappy neighborhoods, or crappy apartments located in nice neighborhoods. (The nicest place was actually just a few feet from the Park Place station on the Franklin Shuttle. Lovely 'hood.) However, there were a couple that had a nice balance of being a tolerable apartment located in a tolerable neighborhood, and it looks like I may be getting the very first place I looked at last Sunday, in Sunset Park. Looks like I may be living in NYC by the second week of February, if not sooner.
Also, on Tuesday afternoon, I was able to make it down to the winter garden at the World Financial Center for the first time to look at the models for the WTC rebuilding.
First of all, I was much more impressed by Daniel Liebeskind's modified master plan than I was expecting to be. I'm normally not a big fan of the type of work Liebeskind does, and his scheme was far different than anything I would have designed, but I was surprised by how much I liked it. It really looked appropriate for the site.
But.... That just made me all the more upset when I saw the latest model for the site, in which the so-called "Freedom Tower" [gag] has been completely RAPED and utterly dumbed-down by the greedy real estate developers and their trained monkeys at Skidmore Owings and Merrill. The resulting design is a pale imitation of what was originally presented to the public, and Bloomberg, Patakey, the LMDC, and the Port Authority should all hang their heads in shame if this hideous monstrosity actually gets built. It's sickening enough that they've rushed the entire design process just so our Idiot Prince can lay the cornerstone during the Republican Convention this summer and get a nice photo-op for his election campaign, but this is something that NYC will be stuck with for generations. The city and the WTC site deserves far better.
Hopefully what gets built above-ground at the WTC site will be at least partially redeemed by Calatrava's incredible plans for what is getting built underground for the PATH station, but I was disappointed that there weren't any detailed drawings or models of Calatrava's scheme on display. Hopefully Calatrava will take note of what's happened to Liebeskind's tower design and not let SOM touch his drawings with a ten-foot pole.
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
I have never found this to be the case.
I didn't complain on Monday morning on the way to Trenton on the R7, when the engineer kept overshooting the platforms at two or three stations, forcing the train to back up to get to the platform. (Nevermind the fact that this is how one of the worst rail accidents in Chicago happened, in 1972.) Even though this delayed our arrival in Trenton, I was still able to make my connection to NJT.
As long as he does not reverse into an interlocking or move out of his block there is no risk from the type of accident that took place on the IC in 1972.
I was moderately pissed when I discovered that I'm paying almost 50% more for the SEPTA segments of the trip ($3 to 30th Street, then $7 to Trenton) than for the NJT segments (just over $7 to Penn Station), even though the NJT segments cover about twice the distance and offers far better service on far more comfortable trains.
Why are you pissed at SEPTA for trying to raise revenue on its "long distance" travelers?
Not only does this mean I now get to wait around the freezing-cold shithole of a train station in Trenton for the next 1.5 hours with my thumb up my ass along with about 20 other extremely pissed-off SEPTA commuters until the next (and last) SEPTA train leaves Trenton, this also means I'll miss my R8 train back home. And thanks to spending five of the past seven days travelling between NYC and Philly, I'm literally down to my last dime and can't afford a cab ride from 30th Street station.
Why didn't you bring you camera to take pictures at Trenton? Why didn't you find a connecting SEPTA bus to get you back home?
As long as he does not reverse into an interlocking or move out of his block there is no risk from the type of accident that took place on the IC in 1972
The train shouldn't be overshooting the platforms in the first place.
2) Could you not have changed trains at N. Phila. station instead of 30 St? Maybe not at Midnight, but definitely at 8 AM. (And I know it's an 1/10 mile walk from the Chestnut Hill platform to the Broad Street/Lehigh platform.)
3) What will you be like when you have young children? What did your parents do when you were a young child (assuming they didn't like driving into NYC either)?
4) I have no problems with your commentary, EXCEPT that your extremely vulgar language may be saying more about you than you even know.
1) Doesn't the #23 bus go near Queen Lane and Germantown Avenue 24/7?Just take the all-night Broad St. bus (runs every 15 minutes) to Erie Avenue and get the 23.
I don't live anywhere near Germantown Avenue. And even if I were inclined to take a bus to Germantown Avenue and walk from there, I'd be walking through a rotten neighborhood at 3:00 AM in bitter cold weather.
2) Could you not have changed trains at N. Phila. station instead of 30 St? Maybe not at Midnight, but definitely at 8 AM. (And I know it's an 1/10 mile walk from the Chestnut Hill platform to the Broad Street/Lehigh platform.)
No, the R8 train had left North Philly 20 minutes before my R7 train even left Trenton. And thank you, I'm quite familiar with how far away the platforms are from each other.
3) What will you be like when you have young children? What did your parents do when you were a young child (assuming they didn't like driving into NYC either)?
Assuming I ever have kids, I'll have a hell of a lot more decency than to let my kids run rampant on a commuter train screaming and yelling, and to change a kid's smelly diaper in a confined space with 20 other people, and to force a train to wait 10 minutes while I unload half my household posessions from the first four rows of seats.
4) I have no problems with your commentary, EXCEPT that your extremely vulgar language may be saying more about you than you even know.
Fuck you very much for pointing that out to me.
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
Ask Jersey Mike. He's the pro at this.
You're fucking cool!
1. You seem to have a distinctly un-Brooklyn-like approach to urban neighborhoods that don't happen to fall within your acceptable criteria. Take note of one statemant you posted:
"And even if I were inclined to take a bus to Germantown Avenue and walk from there, I'd be walking through a rotten neighborhood at 3:00 AM in bitter cold weather."
Good golly. And you wanna be a Brooklyn boy?? My brother, you best get ready for "all kindsa' neighborhoods" when you do actually move here. To use a vernacular...there ain't no bad neighborhoods...just bad people. Whaddya gonna do when you find yourself down on Pitkin Avenue, or Chauncy Street, or even on 18th Avenue, maybe? Stand still? Walk with your head down, shunning eye contact? Break down and cry? You better get ready for the Big Town, pal. We can smell out guys with attitudes like that a mile away. An' we start grinning...
(p.s.: Man, don't you know that 3:00 AM in bitter cold weather is THE BEST time for a shy guy to be walking through a neighborhood he's worried about? At that time most cats just worried `bout keepin' warm, not that flush sucker stumbling down the boulevard lookin' all scared and whatnot.)
2. I agree with what the Red Line guy was saying. See, Subtalk ain't the New York Press. This is a fairly restrained group of railroad afficienados sitting around talking subways. A overwhelming majority of the postings here manage to avoid posting "curses" on board. For a number of reasons; it adds nothing to the specific discourse, it's jarring, and it can be offensive to the very folk you might be wishing to convince, and makes these people avoid reading your posts.
Also, believe it or not, young kids are reading these very words. As (perhaps reluctant) adults it simply behooves us to comport ourselves in an exemplary fashion. Cursing in the presence of kids to me seems like, if not eating, than be-fouling the seed corn. For this reason I'm gonna ask you to please refrain from interjecting those curse words. Obviously, me (just another jamoche) asking this of you has no "official" bearing. You might very well give me a similar response you gave the other guy. Be that as it may, I'm talking to you man to man. You may consider the youngens' hanging out here, uh, "our kids". Show some respect for them.
Other than that I have no beefs with what you post. Good luck.
Give me a break.... I lived in Chicago for 9 years, I've lived in Philadelphia for 1.5 years, and I've already been all over most of NYC at one point or another. I've also spent my share of time in some choice neighborhoods of Detroit, Atlanta, and Cincinnati. I trust my gut to tell me when I'm in a safe neighborhood and when I'm not. Although there are far worse neighborhoods in Philly than Germantown, it's still generally an unsafe place. And even if my personal safety could be guaranteed, walking over a mile in dress shoes through ice and slush at 3AM with a -20 wind chill still isn't my idea of fun.
You also seem to make some gross generalizations about Brooklyn. It's a big place, and some parts of Brooklyn are as tony as the Upper East Side, and other parts feel more like North Philly. I'm smart enough to avoid the ones that fall toward the latter end of the spectrum. Most fall somewhere between those extremes, including the neighborhood I'll be moving to. I think I'll survive just fine, thank you.
As for the rest of your posting, refer to my earlier response on the subject. As far as I'm concerned, that issue is closed.
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
Your gut is wrong. Germantown is not generally unsafe, and Germantown Av in particular is OK, even in parts that look shabbier.
However, at 3AM you can certainly walk down the wrong alley ad meet people you don't want to see.
I lived in Germantown, near Germantown High school, and was on the R8, the R7 and the 23 bus all the time. Never had a problem.
Sigh. Trust me when I tell you this: There is a difference. Brooklyn Heights is not Park Avenue. Not by a long shot.
"I'm smart enough to avoid the ones that fall toward the latter end of the spectrum."
...but the point is, if you're living in Brooklyn, you can't avoid any of that. Not in the sense you're describing. You live in Sunset Park, Bensonhurst's gonna come to you. Live in Cobble Hill? Crown Heights gonna come to you. Live downtown? Carnarsie's coming to ya. And so on. I haven't lived in those places you mentioned. But I do know Brooklyn. Our communities are NOT gated, for the most part. It ain't perfect. But consider the dense bus and train network.
I'm not trying to bust your hump. But I'm just saying that it isn't so cut and dried as you make it out to be. You will come to understand my viewpoint after you spend some time here. Brooklyn really is unique.
It's still plenty good. Got a lot over where I live now...
...but the point is, if you're living in Brooklyn, you can't avoid any of that. Not in the sense you're describing. You live in Sunset Park, Bensonhurst's gonna come to you. Live in Cobble Hill? Crown Heights gonna come to you. Live downtown? Carnarsie's coming to ya.
I don't quite get your first example. Bensonhurst is generally considered a better neighborhood than Sunset Park.
Anybody who reads this board regularly and/or who rides SEPTA regularly knows that they're one of the most expensive and worst-run transit systems in the country.
As long as he does not reverse into an interlocking or move out of his block there is no risk from the type of accident that took place on the IC in 1972.
As Peter said, he shouldn't be overshooting the platforms in the first place, especially with a train that's only two cars long. Hell, if I was able to stop a trolley in the correct spot at Seashore on my first trip and with no prior training, you'd think a trained professional would be able to stop a train in the right spot.
Why are you pissed at SEPTA for trying to raise revenue on its "long distance" travelers?
One-way off-peak fare from Queen Lane to Trenton on SEPTA: $10
One way off-peak fare from Trenton to NYC Penn on NJT: $7 and some change.
Like I said, the NJT segment is about double the distance of the SEPTA segment, and offers better service, shorter headways, and more comfortable trains. What's wrong with this picture?
Why didn't you bring you camera to take pictures at Trenton?
Unlike some people on SubTalk, I actually have a life outside my railfan interests, and I don't drag photography equipment around with me every time I ride a train. Also, it was dark, and the wind chill on the platforms was about -30F. I decided to spend my time in the balmy 60F air of the waiting area.
Why didn't you find a connecting SEPTA bus to get you back home?
The only two busses that serve my neighborhood, the 32 and the K, both stopped running an hour before I even made it to 30th Street Station. And since I had already purchased a now-useless train ticket for the R8, I no longer had the cash on me for bus fare.
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
Most expensive? What are you smoking? Their most expensive one way inbound is $5.50. You can go from anywhere to anywhere for no more than $7. On the LIRR $5 will get you like to zone 1.
One-way off-peak fare from Queen Lane to Trenton on SEPTA: $10
Um, you know you can through ticket from Queen Lane to Trenton for $7. $7 is the most you can be charged for a SEPTA RR ride. The $7 on NJT is the RTX fare, it is $11 normally.
Also, it was dark, and the wind chill on the platforms was about -30F. I decided to spend my time in the balmy 60F air of the waiting area.
Bah, waited an over an hour for the Eastbound Capitol Limited at Alliance OH at 4AM last week when it was about 20 degrees with a still wind. I kept nice and toasty by running to all 4 limits of CP-ALLIANCE 83.
I specifically asked the conductor about this option, and he told me I had to pay a separate fare to get to Queen Lane. (And in typical SEPTA fashion, there's nothing mentioned in the timetables about this option.) So more shame on SEPTA because their staff obviously doesn't know shit about their fare options, making me waste $27 over the course of five days.
Bah, waited an over an hour for the Eastbound Capitol Limited at Alliance OH at 4AM last week when it was about 20 degrees with a still wind. I kept nice and toasty by running to all 4 limits of CP-ALLIANCE 83.
Good for you... I was wearing my suit and dress shoes, and didn't feel like running up and down NEC tracks in the middle of the night, especially after having spent the day walking all over New York City.
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
Check out the fare schedule on SEPTA's website. Stations by zone: zone 1 (Queen Lane) to zone 6 (Trenton) is $7.
Mike and I rode from West Trenton to Thorndale for $7.
Hm... LAST train from Trenton? That'd be the 12:06 AM departure... gets to Penn Center Suburban Station at 12:55 AM... exactly 26 minutes BEFORE the last Route 32 departure from 15th & JFK Blvd. to Ridge & Lyceum... and from what you say, using Queen Lane Station, you also have the H, XH, and R nearby... admittedly, the R doesn't go via Henry & Midvale after 8:30 PM, but the H and XH run pretty late, and you'd have been at North Philadelphia Station at 12:40 AM... I think you could have made it from the platform to Broad & Glenwood to catch a C bus or the BSS NiteOwl bus, MAYBE even to Broad & Lehigh and underground before the last BSS TRAIN if the R7 were early enough and you ran fast enough (it's typically 11 minutes from City Hall to North Phila.)... I'm pretty sure there's a post 1:00 AM H or XH trip from Broad & Erie, and I'm pretty sure you could have made it there in time... lack of fares aside, you DID have a few alternatives, just no way to use them... but they WERE there.
You seem to fault SEPTA for all of your problems.
I commute between NYC and Philly every day, and while I now take AMTRAK for time savings...when I was interviewing in the city I chose to schedule a few interviews a day instead of going back and forth.
You could have also chosen to take Greyhound back to Philly and the train up. Greyhound departs the Port Authority hourly until 1130pm. While Greyhound is not the best choice....its no worse than the ride on a SEPTA Train.
I did not see any problems that you could not have overcome on your own, and certainly no problems that would provoked all the cursing and personal attacks you just provided in your postings. You probably are not much older than me (23). I hope that you have a better outlook on life.....or you will be more miserable as time goes on. Especially if you're still taking Mass Transit anywhere.
Oh, shut up.
I suppose it's my fault that some architects and prospective roomates have busy schedules, making it impossible for me to meet with every single one of them on a single day.
I suppose it's my fault the SEPTA engineer Wednesday morning kept overshooting the platforms at multiple stations, making us late for arrival at Trenton and possibly endangering our safety.
I suppose it's my fault the 9:10 New Jersey Transit train was delayed five minutes before leaving Penn Station on Wednesday evening.
I suppose it's my fault the 10:39 SEPTA crew at Trenton couldn't be bothered to hold the train another two minutes so that they could make the connection to the arriving New Jersey Transit train, instead making over a dozen of their own customers wait around Trenton for almost 1.5 hours until the 12:06 train, and making most of us miss our last chance for Regional Rail connections in Center City.
I suppose it's my fault I didn't have a crystal ball with me at the time so I could forsee all these developments happening, and make alternate travel arrangements before buying my train tickets in advance, or at least catch an earlier NJT train on Wednesday evening.
I suppose it's my fault that SEPTA Regional Rail has a pathetic on-time rate of 83%, making it one of the most shoddy and unreliable commuter rail systems in the country. (Philadelphia Inquirer, 12/21/03)
I suppose it's my fault that SEPTA charges an obcene base fare of $2 for subway and bus routes, even though they provide a tiny fraction of the level of service that NYCTA provides for the same base fare.
I suppose it's my fault that -- having been a regular rider of NYCTA, CTA, Metra, MBTA, PATCO, Washington Metro, MARTA, Amtrak, and NJT over the past few years -- I've found SEPTA employees to be the most rude, uninformed, lethargic, and unprofessional transit employees of any transit agency I've ever dealt with.
You could have also chosen to take Greyhound back to Philly and the train up.
Go back and carefully read my original posting, and put yourself in my shoes. Greyhound was not an option. Amtrak was not an option. Getting a motel room in Newark was not an option. Taking a SEPTA bus home from Center City was not an option. Taking a taxi home from 30th Street Station was not an option.
I did not see any problems that you could not have overcome on your own, and certainly no problems that would provoked all the cursing and personal attacks you just provided in your postings. You probably are not much older than me (23). I hope that you have a better outlook on life.....or you will be more miserable as time goes on. Especially if you're still taking Mass Transit anywhere.
Show me another other SubTalker who wouldn't be cursing while describing my scenario, and I'll show you a bridge for sale in Brooklyn. I'm active at my church and I go to mass every week, but I'm not a saint. However, my family, my close friends, my priest, and my cat all seem to think I'm at least a reasonably decent person.
And the only personal attacks I've made are toward those who feel the need to make public judgements about my personal character without ever having met me in real life, without having ever engaged me in meaningful dialogue here on SubTalk, and without having been in my shoes on Wednesday evening. It's easy to play Monday morning quarterback or to look back with 20/20 hindsight, but based on what I was going through at the time, I think I was justified in being very pissed-off at SEPTA and using a few choice epithets to describe the way they run their operation.
If I came on here and gave a mini-sermon to every SubTalker whose posts annoyed or offended me, I'd never stop typing. With few exceptions, I choose to ignore them and move on. Like I said before: If you don't like what I say here, then don't read my posts.
All that said, however..... To those who were offended by my use of profanity in my original posting, please accept my apologies. My temper was still worked-up while I was typing it, and if I had to type it over again, I'd find another way to word it. I'm sorry you had to read it.
Peace,
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
Have you joined DVARP yet? Yu might want to look into that. Don Nigro has created a forum for discussing issues you've brought up. Check them out: www.dvarp.org. They have a Center City office on Walnut Street.
SEPTA's on-time record is the worst of the Northeast Corridor, and I think is even worse than Metra. Your complaints are reasonable.
Well, it looks like I'll only be living in Philadelphia another two weeks, so I'm not going to sweat it. Maybe I'll join Straphangers and be a thorn in the side of NYCTA instead. :-)
SEPTA's on-time record is the worst of the Northeast Corridor, and I think is even worse than Metra. Your complaints are reasonable.
At least as recently as a few years ago, Metra actually had the best on-time performance of any commuter rail operation in the US, around 97% or so. I know that figure took a huge nosedive when Union Pacific bought out the C&NW and moved all the dispatching to some God-forsaken place like Tulsa, but I'm not sure what their performance has been like recently. If they're now in the same league as SEPTA, then shame on them.
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
Thank you for your data. That portion of my post could have been written better.
I wish i had a train to miss.
a) Suitable accommodations in NYC
b) Gainful employment
c) Someone to share them with!
Soon!
Best of luck! It’s far too cold to be waiting around on platforms late at night (since where I get on, New Brunwswick, they close the waiting room at 8pm when the staff go home) and walking around all day in dress shoes is a pain in the foot!
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
The only one around here who would be justified in playing "cyber-nanny" is Dave Pirmann, and I suspect he's got better things to do with his time. If you don't like how I describe my travels, then don't read my posts.
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
Do you really get pleasure out of exposing the children who read this board to profanity? I realize they see and hear the words elsewhere too, but is it really necessary to give them more exposure?
Thank you. You however, are.
No, but it tends to teach them that incivility is OK. To some slight degree it harms society.
: )-
David
IINM, the R-42, R-44, R-46, R-142(A), and R-143 have door enablers, and apparently they're spreading to the R-40.
this will have the
B as the west end line all times ending at 168 st manhattan on the weekends and, bedford park rush hours
D can return as the brighton local with an unchanged route to the bronx
W can serve lower manhattan more frequently helping the R through the tunnel ending at Bay Parkway (Only during Rush)
Q can be the old brighton/ bway express to 57 st (nothing much can be done with this route ) unless there is a queens blvd extension nothing can be done
M this line could be rerouted to 95 st during rush hours getting more people to the NYSE/ City Hall alot faster than the R during rush hours as the 4 ave express. At other times this can be the 4 ave local ending at 9 ave.
R this line would remain the same with some trains filling in the N in some spaces and woild be highly assisted by the W and M to lower manhattan
N this line doesnt have to switch at 34 to go through 60 st but it can skip 49 st and switch at 57 st the Q wont be bottle necked at 34 st. Plan B is to have it end at 57 st with the Q and make the W alone go to astoria or make it go there on the weekends
this might be stupid and mediocre to yall but it is a good plan to me
Besides, if 57th is used as a terminal, then Express trains to Queens (ie the (N) train) cannot skip 49th Street and still have access to the 60th Street Tunnel.
Besides which, the MTA did a great job with these route alignments.
Elias
MAYBE IF queens blvd upgraded to 68/68a's then the Q can fially go to queens blvd express to 179 st eliminating the V and Easing out the R service i am really looking forward to seeing 68's in queens
this can only happen if all of the 32's were moved to 207 st and coney island then the 68's can move in and carry more people to broadway bigger is better
Railfanning is a problem because there will be none on bway exp and only the part time lines would be railfan routes such as the B, and W
How exactly can a train become a big winner? Did Ed McMann show up and give them a big check?
MAYBE IF queens blvd upgraded to 68/68a's then the Q can fially go to queens blvd express to 179 st eliminating the V and Easing out the R service i am really looking forward to seeing 68's in queens
Hold your breath, I dare ya. It'd make little sense to replace the V running through 53rd with a Q running through 60th or 63rd (most likely the latter) and bumping the F train back to 53rd St tunnel would serve no purpose. Two Broadway trains running local on the QB would make absolutely no sense. Of course the V runs via the 53rd St tunnel while the F does the 63rd st tube because the V would run nearly completely empty if it were to do the 63rd St Tunnel. For this reason the Q would be just about as empty going through 63rd St tunnel, people would probably rather ride the E or F on the QB express, or for Bway service, the R train. I don't think the MTA is going to screw up their rather well planned out service just so you can see R68s on the QB Local.
this can only happen if all of the 32's were moved to 207 st and coney island then the 68's can move in and carry more people to broadway bigger is better
First off I think 207th has R44s, not R68s, but I could be wrong on that. Secondly, about the 'Bigger is better thing,' you do realize that the MTA runs 8 car 75 foot/car trains and 10 car 60 foot/car trains, right? This means that trains made up of 75 foot cars will carry few more people than a train made up of 60 foot cars. In fact I'm willing to bet that the wide-cabs on the 75 foot cars offset their greater length, especially in seating capacity. An R32's bench seat can accomodate people down to less than 15 inches per person, assuming their bodies are small enough, whereas the R44/46/68 are restricted basically to the width of the provided seat, it'd be hard to sit more than one person in the seat.
Railfanning is a problem because there will be none on bway exp and only the part time lines would be railfan routes such as the B, and W
I'm not actually sure if there's even a subject here, what exactly is 'None'? Are you refering to R32s? R68s?
As far as the car assignments go, that's important only to railfans (and NYCT maintenance shops). The average customer doesn't care whether the train consists of R-68s, R-46s, R-32s, or BU El cars as long as it shows up when it's supposed to, gets where it's going when it's supposed to, and is reasonably clean and comfortable as far as temperature. And 30+ years of operating experience with 75-foot cars in NYC have shown that bigger is NOT necessarily better -- the R-32s load and discharge faster because a 10-car train of them has more doors than 8 75-footers and the transverse seating on the 75-footers encourages people to congregate around the doors.
David
David
They could ask vendors to make 75' cars with wider doors and no transverse seating.
Obviously 60' cars are more versatile in that they can be used on the Eastern Division too, but I am surprised the MTA doesn't see a way to save money by making some of its new purchases 75' cars.
David
What's good about the 75' car seating configuration is that it clearly defines what a seat is. On the other cars (outside the R62's) the undefined size of a seat invariably leads to people taking up far more leg room than they need. If a 600' car train of R32's has a theoretically greater seating capacity, I'm willing to bet that a 600' train of 75' cars will have an equal if not greater number of actual passangers in a seat when full.
David
That's been the logic behind defending the B/D swap, and it's wrong. People still associate the B with West End and the D with Brighton, despite their temporary truncation to 34th St in Manhattan since 7/2001. The swap is a radical change in past service patterns. Even though it's justified, please don't label it as something else.
Am I clear in my understanding of the situation now?
David
I actually disagree with the swap. If the B were still going to 168th, I wouldn't have a problem with it, but since the B and D have the same route in the Bronx and Manhattan, it makes less sense to change their Brooklyn routes as opposed to changing their Bronx & Manhattan operating times and patterns.
Put it this way. Say back in the 1980's, when the E ran on Fulton Street via local, A via exp. Say there was construction on 8th Avenue that shifted them to 6th Avenue. Now say for some reason after this diversion is over there needed to be 8th Ave/Fulton express service to Queens and local service to upper Manhattan. Would it make more sense to make the A local and the E express, or have the A and E switch northern termini? Think about it.
David
Now that service has not been restored to Brighton riders who before the Bridge closings had their choice of 6th Avenue service or Broadway service (with an easy change at Dekalb, right when the Q was not running). Now Brighton riders will have no access to the above stations without an inconvenient 5 to 8 minute walk with NYC transit's refusal to acknowledge that many Brighton riders want 6th Avenue; service which can easily be provided. It's not as if those Brighton riders who prefer 6th Avenue are asking that millions of dollars of new constructon to be carried out to ramp other lines to cnnect with the Brighton line, or am I missing something.
So indeed Brighton riders are having some service taken away from them and I don't see how anybody can say otherwise.
B. There are sound operational reasons for D trains continuing to bypass DeKalb Avenue into the evening.
C. Again, one cannot take away that which does not exist. Currently there is no Brighton/Sixth Avenue service, and therefore not providing one in the future is not the same as taking one away.
David
And they are????
Go to 9th Avenue during a midday sometime. See what they do with the M and the W. After observing that for a few intervals, go to 36th Street.
And this obsession with 6th Avenue is misguided. In Midtown, 6th Avenue is within a block of the Broadway line, and the part of 6th Avenue with the most employment is above Herald Square, where a change may also be made. So the key issue is transfers to get to places that these two lines do not serve -- the west side and the Lex Line.
Right now, the Broadway line has it all over the 6th Avenue line as far as transfers to the Lex line is concerned, and transfers to the West Side IRT. The 6th Avenue line has the edge in transferring to the 8th Avenue and Central Park lines.
As a no-choice 6th Avenue rider (Culver Line), I wish I had Broadway Express service. I'll be happy when that Bleeker to Broadawy-Lafayette transfer is finished (I'll be somewhat happy when it is started). That will be a big deal.
David
Unfortunately, that's very much the exception.
I know we're talking about trains coming off the bridge, stopping at DeKalb Avenue on the "bridge" track, and continuing to the express track at Pacific Street, but the situations are so similar that the test can be done now. This will work whether the track ahead is clear or occupied, and, in fact, will be more telling if the track ahead is clear.
David
David
Yeah, yeah, yeah. While I'm not arguing with the concept that Broadway is a more desirable 24/7 route, using this "survey" as justification isn't fair. Most people probably chose Broadway because Broadway was the current service pattern and people had their lives revolving around it. People don't like change, as the hysteria over the 7/22/01 changes demonstrated.
David
Again, that's not the point of my objection. My beef is the label being placed on the 2001-2004 bridge service plan as it pertains to the new routings. It was a temporary reroute which cannot erase 34 years of B/West End and D/Brighton affiliation. The new arrangement is a radical change. I'm just calling a spade a spade, I'm not arguing with the legitimacy of the spade's existence.
David
Once a service has been established, it makes no difference how long it's been running. Nobody remembers 34 years back and then gets lost because the B is in a different place than it was in 1970. They get lost if the B is in a different place than it was last week.
Why didn't I see you complaining in 2001 when the Q suddenly moved from 6th to Broadway? Why didn't I see you complaining in 2002 when the W took over for the N in Manhattan on weekends? Why aren't you complaining now that the N will soon be skipping a lot of the stops it used to make or that the W won't be going to Brooklyn anymore? Those changes are much more likely to cause confusion than the B and D being extended to different places than they had gone in 2001. Anybody who sees a B or D south of 34th will know that something is obviously up, and will look for a map or listen to the announcements.
Those changes were unavoidable.
Those changes were unavoidable. And I'm NOT complaining. I'm just properly defining the parameters of this conversation. The B/D swap is a radical change.
Actually, the (rather explicit) assumption is not just fixed ridership patterns for all time but also the same riders for all time. In other words, people aren't allowed to finish school, start school, get jobs, change jobs, move (into or out of the service area), retire, or die, because those actions might throw off the ridership pattern.
Ummm... no.
Thing 1... I've said it before, and I'll say it again: It's just a stupid letter. The world won't end just because a train is called D or XXX or John Jacob Jingleheimer Schmidt.
Thing 2... The current (construction-related) pattern is itself "a radical change" from past service patterns. The 2/22/04 pattern will be a radical change from this radical change.
Thing 3... If people feel that that they will be financially (or otherwise) damaged by the 2/22/04 service plan, they should be lining up to sue. They aren't, because they're willing to deal with this letter instead of that letter. So should SubTalkers.
Well...maybe that depends on your definition of railfanning. To me, being able to look out the front window at the tracks ahead is just one aspect of the fascination with fixed guideway transit vehicles. The actual routes, real trains running along real tracks, service variations of those trains, these are also part of the hobby.
No you are not stupid, but you are A Bridge Again Railfan!
You're stupid. Seriously.
BWAY express is a problem because of creating super lines that interfere with local service at 34 th st and express service at 42nd st the revitalized N will be an exact copy of the W when 2/22/04 happens
Montague tunnel is a major problem because of one bway line and 1 nassau st line. the mta could have sent the W past whitehall to end at bay parkway during all times except nights and weekends.
Soloution for BWAY EXP have the N end at 57/7 all times except nights and weekends. The N would then not interfere with local service to astoria
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why was there no 6 ave express service
i really think that the MTA COULD HAVE DONE BETTER WITH 6 AVE WHEN THE BRIDGE CLOSED
THE EXPRESS COULD HAVE ENDED AT W4 ST
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IF YALL DONT LIKE THIS THEN GO TO WWW.SUBWAYSPOT.COM AND CHECK OUT THE MANHATTAN BRIDGE PAGE
2. The revised N won't be an exact copy of the current W, though it will be identical for much of the day in Manhattan and Queens. However, I don't see how this is a "problem," and if it is, for whom.
3. Why is one Broadway/tunnel service and one Nassau/tunnel service insufficient? Does the poster to whom I am responding, or anyone else here, have ridership data that proves that the amount of service provided through the Montague Street Tunnel starting in late February will be insufficient to meet NYCT's ridership guidelines?
4. Revised W service alone is not sufficient to serve Astoria, and Whitehall Street's one terminal track cannot handle the full Astoria service requirement, so all Astoria trains cannot be Ws unless some were to go to Brooklyn. Meanwhile, see (3) above -- even assuming enough cars were available to do it (which there aren't), what data says these trains are needed in Brooklyn?
5. What would have been the point of terminating Sixth Avenue express service at W. 4th Street during the Manhattan Bridge/Sixth Avenue service suspension? How many people ride between 34th Street and W. 4th Street, and can the existing F/V service not handle them?
David
"How many people ride between 34th Street and W. 4th Street, and can the existing F/V service not handle them?"
If the answer is that the existing F/V service cannot handle riding between 34th Street and W. 4th Street (which, at least on weekdays, is not a major destination in and of itself), then there would have been an argument for terminating Sixth Avenue express service at W. 4th Street during the shutdown of the Manhattan Bridge's Sixth Avenue Line tracks. In nearly 20 years of working for NYCT, I don't recall ever ONCE hearing, from passengers or otherwise, that there is insufficient service specifically between W. 4th Street and 34th Street, not including 14th Street or 23rd Street (since those are local stops) at ANY time of the day, any day of the week.
Besides, the Grand Street Shuttle, as revised following complaints from Chinatown residents, terminates at W. 4th Street, which would mean that Sixth Avenue Express trains could not since they'd be using the same tracks (it originally terminated at Broadway-Lafayette, but the people wanted better connections with Eighth Avenue service, which is not as big a concern for people coming from north of W. 4th Street since many of them could have gotten on/transferred to Eighth Avenue service at 59th Street or along 53rd Street).
David
David
<4> can just be the express all the way up to woodlawn then this will be the Bronx Express, Lexington av Express, and Brooklyn Express
<9> why cant it just be express from 96 to 242 and have the 1 do the stops the 9 can be the bronx and manhattan express
<6> can be express from parkchester to bowling green while the 6 circle be the local ending at city hall. this will get all of the east bronx residents to the wall street areas
That's too much service to the ends of the lines (and therefore a requirement of too many cars). Make it all local with half of the trains terminating at 137th on the 1 and Parkchester on the 6.
B,D: both local, otherwise, no change
Presumably you just mean in the Bronx. Also, the B train being the Manhattan Localshould be the full time service.
Did you forget that it was cut back to 238 St/Nereid Av from 241 St back in 1995?
<4> can just be the express all the way up to woodlawn then this will be the Bronx Express, Lexington av Express, and Brooklyn Express
NO!
<9> why cant it just be express from 96 to 242 and have the 1 do the stops the 9 can be the bronx and manhattan express
The skip stop is useless but the peak express service wouldn't save any time since it is two tracked between 157 and Dyckman St. Other than that there probably would of been peak express service implemented a long time ago.
<6> can be express from parkchester to bowling green while the 6 circle be the local ending at city hall. this will get all of the east bronx residents to the wall street areas
Not a bad idea on paper but may not work overall.
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Did you forget that it was cut back to 238 St/Nereid Av from 241 St back in 1995?
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Should be re-extended or at least have alternate 5 trains between 238 or 241. 5 trains can interline with 2 trains for a bit to cut down on some of the problems.
There is no spare peak-hour track capacity south of Brooklyn Bridge–City Hall; the #4 and #5 trains use all available space.
What would serve the local stations?
The nifty middle tracks allow express service in the peak hours in the peak direction. The diamond #6 skips nine local stops.
Pelham Bay Park cannot turn the <6> that come and leave during rush hours, in a timely manner without tieups that last until Wchester SQ.
Parkchester is clogged with <6> that need to cross over and 6 local that are backing up to morrison.
Wanna get rid of the <6>? Find a way to fit all the <6> and (6) on two tracks, and then try to turn the trains around.
Post back if you even know what morisson is
I have no idea why it is so pathetically slow in that part of the Bronx. Makes the Queens Blvd exp feel like light speed!
Perhaps I should admit that I lack first-hand experience of the #6 or #6 diamond, but if there is factual data to show that the #6 diamond regularly fails to meet the schedule (within a reasonable margin of error) that should be grounds for a complaint. The factual data should be a representative sample of actual observed timings compared with the scheduled timings.
In fact the express regularly passes the local according to the published schedule. Does that not really happen?
The locals can get held to if there is congestion on the local track(1 train at Parkchester, another train close to there and another one a few stops down) and the express passes all of that.
Next thing you know they cut the # of express trains [sarcasm but with this agency it can happen] :-\.
The express normally goes ahead of the local at Parkchester if they arrive at just about the same time. But putting the local to switch AHEAD of the <6> that's already in the station is pretty silly to me in that it only bunches up the express trains and subsequently the locals.
Apparently nothing! I wouldn't want to use the middle track to provide a #4 diamond express to Woodlawn. You would have nearly empty express trains passing through some relatively busy local stations. The #6 diamond to Pelham Bay is different; it saves time to the relatively large number of riders using the express stops, and the local trains can short-turn at Parkchester.