First off, I want to thank all of you that sent me information as to how
the term snakes came about for Switchmen. For those that don't know, their
union, SUNA used a very large S as part of their logo and it resembled a
snake. Although I have known a few over the years that really were on the
lowlife side but that is another story. The term grew from that logo. As
the great Paul Harvey would say, "And now you know the rest of the story."
Another item of note. We have been discussing the possibility of turning
the manuscript I have of HTOTHI columns into book for quite some time now.
We had one publisher interested but they dropped the project when they
changed senior managers. Another publisher I approached read several
chapters and passed on the idea. A third has still yet to respond and I
sent him several chapters way back in the summer. Recently I was given a
lead to a publisher by one of my subscribers. I have been in contact with
this publisher and we are working on a possibility of something happening
here. They did want me to ask what you the readership of this column would
be willing to bear for a price. We all know finances are tight for many
folks right now and don't wish to create a product that most of you cannot
afford.
So here is my question to all of you; would you be willing to shell out
around $35 for such a book? As of this moment I don't know if we would be
doing a hard or soft bound book, but we are trying to look at the potential
market. This may be the biggest part of assembling a final product. The
plan would be to include some photos, but it would not be a photo book.
Just several photos to accompany and support some of the text. Right now we
have some 211 pages of text, but that will likely be reduced somewhat
before we come up with a final draft for publication.
So now as if I don't have enough on my plate to keep my occupied for the
next hundred years, I'll be looking forward to your responses on this idea.
Please do me a favor though, when you respond, send the responses directly
to me. Don't respond to a discussion list. You can send your thoughts
directly to me at thetuch7@earthlink.net .
Thanks for your continued support.
Tuch
--- Joseph Santucci
--- thetuch7@earthlink.net
--- EarthLink: The #1 provider of the Real Internet.
1) They have to collect fares (tickets or cash) from passengers FACE TO FACE. They have to keep their cash and ticket stock in good order, and remit any cash collected in a timely fasion.
2) They have to throw switches and derails when going in and out of a yard , and they have to apply a minimum of 2 handbrakes (and also chocks, depending on location) when changing ends or tying a train down.
3) They have to perform a brake test each time the engineer changes ends. To do this, the trainman has to either stand on the ground and look at the brake pads, or look at the gauges in the cab car or on the engine.
4) The conductor must be qualified on the physical characteristics of the railroad he/she is operating on. The main reason for this is in case a reverse move has to be made without the engineer having to change ends.
5) They have to "set up" the train whenever given different equipment. That entails making sure all of the doors, traps, lights, public address system, and bathrooms are in working order. Any defects must be reported on a special form.
6) In addition to all of the above, they still have to make announcements, and open and close the doors.
I hope that answers your question. I believe I had alreay mentioned something like this a while back when somebody brought up a similar question.
Engineers get paid more than transit T/O's because they need to be Federally certified and their jobs require a much higher minimum skill level.
Historically, decades ago, minorities had difficulty being hired anywhere in what today makes up MTA. Did the city transit organizations integrate faster than the suburban commuter railroads?
Regards,
Jimmy
why do MNRR, LIRR AND PATH workers make more than NYCT? simple
MNRR, LIRR AND PATH ARE RAILROADS
NYCT IS A RAILROAD AS WELL, BUT ITS UNDERGROUND WITH LOWER SPEED.
MNRR, LIRR, PATH MUST COMPLY WITH FEDERAL RAILROAD ADMINISTRATION REQUIREMENTS
NYCT DOES NOT
MNRR, PATH, AND LIRR Engineers, conductors and other related railroad crafts, require more responsibility and accountability because Railroad Trains go at higher speeds.
also the type of signalling makes MNRR, PATH AND LIRR RAILROADS. look at the signals of all 3, and look at the subway style signalling.
one interesting point tho, BOTH NYCT AND PATH WEAR UNIFORMS. MNRR AND LIRR ENGINEERS DO NOT WEAR UNIFORMS.
one last point. look at the maximum speeds in these railroads and the subway and look at the difference.
LIRR 80
MNRR 95
PATH 75
NYCT subway, i havent seen anything better than 52.
Having said that, I looked into employment at both LIRR and NYCTA over the years. You have to deal with more service intensity on the subway, but the LIRR is an old-fashioned railroad in its work rules and employee relations. Because of FRA and the way LIRR service is structured, you have to qualify every three years ON THE ENTIRE RAILROAD--you'd better know how many tracks and where and what kind the switches are in Skunkhaven Yard even if you never make the run. I know for a railfan that would be called "fun," but not for most people.
If you're sick, you have to show for work anyway and then go out sick--no calling in from Shea Stadium. A good excuse for not showing is that you're in a hospital bed with a priest reading you your last rites.
If the railroad tells you your crew has to take out another run, you have to take out another run. Violate either of the above examples, it's a "break in service." Get either three or five of these in a year (forget which) and you're FIRED. LIRR is not civil service.
How long to move up the pick list on the subway? On the LIRR, try 15 to 20 to get the terminal you want or a half-decent run.
I think it might be a good thing to tighten up the TA and pay more. For one thing, the Union Square Wreck would never have happened.
That's not the point. You have to show up to go out sick, then you'll be replaced. You can't call in sick.
When SEPTA decided 20 years ago that train crews were the same as bus drivers and trolley operators, I frequently heard on the Shadow Traffic report that the first Regional Rail train in from Norristown had been annulled because the engineer or conductor had called in sick.
one interesting point tho, BOTH NYCT AND PATH WEAR UNIFORMS. MNRR AND LIRR ENGINEERS DO NOT WEAR UNIFORMS.
PATH signals are similar to NYC subway signals, being color-coded instead of positional. There are a number of differences, however; mainly in the signaling of diverging routes and the numbering of signals. I can go into this in more detail if anyone cares.
I don't believe a uniform is required of PATH Engineers, as long as what they're wearing meets the safety requirements. I have noticed more PATH-logo clothes on engineers in recent years, but I don't think it is a requirement. Conductors have a uniform as that is a customer service position (and they're in the car for all to see, unlike the TA). But they seem to have a choice of uniforms.
Looks pretty much like it did last Wednesday afternoon.
I got some good photos of Sunday's activity. I started at the Wheatsheaf Lane foot bridge, just east of Frankford Jct in Philly, just in time to catch doubleheaded train 152. I saw from the bridge that people were at the site of the former Frankford Jct station, so I joined them. Turns out we had met there 3 years ago.
Amtrak Holiday Extras that we photographed included two Arrow III trains, train 3043 and train 3095, and a train of MARC equipment, Amtrak train #3074.
I uploaded to Webshots all the Acela Express motors, all the HHP-8's and long distance trains that I photographed, beginning with the last five on this Webshots page and all of page 3.
Thanks to the heads-up info from Mike Brotzman, I headed out to the Main Line to photograph Amtrak Keystone Service train #612, with SEPTA AEM7 #2304 and six SEPTA Bombardier coaches.
Maybe the timestamps of your photos can help me identify the trains in my video. I caught a lot of Arrow sets not stopping at Rahway, some of which had to be AMTRAK trains.
Peace,
ANDEE
-- Ed Sachs
However, as far as I remember the Standards never operated on an IND route other than Queens Boulevard.
Is it a coincidence that it was first proposed the year after the completion of the Brooklyn-Queens Crosstown line?
Is it a coincidence that it was first proposed the year after the completion of the Brooklyn-Queens Crosstown line?
Passenger Dragged a Few Feet
I've seen enough people put their foot on their door, in hopes of the C/R re-opening the doors.
OTOH: The C/R failed procedure by not seeing the doors, UNLESS there was a problem with the indicator light.
Some people need to work Sundays, you know... Not to mention family requirements, and catching intercity means of transportation.
There's nothing unusual about being in 'such a hurry' on a Sunday.
People risk their lives every second of every day. It's not in contention that taking stupid risks is stupid.
The assertion that people have no reason to be in a hurry on Sundays is a serpate issue and is just flat out wrong.
Now a question for you. How much of a hurry should a person be brfore they risk their life on the subway?
Now for your last question. If you were going to Howard Beach-JFK on the A line, would you want to wait 20 minutes for the next train?
Personally, it's not the end of the world if you have to wait another 5-10 minutes. But if you have to wait 20 minutes (or sometimes more - the Far Rock A at about 11 to midnight is 30 minutes and the M during Williamsburg Bridge construction was 24 minutes) it's worth it if you can get part of your body in the door, PROPERLY. But don't go sticking your foot through the door and let the doors close on your leg. That is NOT a good idea.
Elias
R-32.
Seeing as the risk of draggings hasn't prevented the deployment of unattended ATO subways it's unlikely to be much of an obstacle to the deployment of OPTO. OPTO is so much cheaper that very little will stand in its way.
R-32.
Onions.
There is nothing stronger than Onions!
Onions defy all common cents.
Elais
How can it tell which people are stupid and which ones are not?
Not that it matters, since the R-62A's have similar door sensors.
So much for relying on the sensors.
Of course no matter which fleet of train youre going on, its never a good idea to put your body into the path of closing train doors. ESPECIALLY with children.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
It takes so long to unload the center cars that the C/O seems to get bored and close the door on boarding geese on the Flushing line. I've had this happen twice now, and I'm tempted to let myself get dragged just to put the C/O through the drug test as a punishment. I'm not going to shove disembarking passengers to the ground just because a lazy C/O won't let me board, when I'm standing right at the doors.
They report that it happened at Union Square on a northbound #5 train. There's quite a difference between 7th Ave & 14th and the Union Square IRT platforms. Then I remembered that the #5's were running on 7th Avenue yesterday.
But Union Square platform raises interesting questions. Due to its highly curved shape, are there any special procedures for closing up and watching the train as it pulls out. I realize that there are cameras there, but I wonder how much a conductor can see once the train leaves the station?
I note that the crew got a drug test, did anyone test the WOMAN?
And another interesting question - the redbirds were removed from service because of "dragging incidents" and the "new tech" was supposed to eliminate that ... to paraphrase, the doors are supposed to be SO sensitive that if a penny was stuck in there, you wouldn't get indication. I find this ... troubling ...
To quote Rene Descartes LAST WORDS: "I think not."
: ) Elias
She deserved every inch of that drag for her stupidity.
VC Madman
The artist was Woody Jones from Mechanical Amusements based in Georgia. The MTA commissioned the model.
Grand Central Model
1. There was a fleet switch on the Q and W lines, many R68A trainsets showed up on the Q while R68's roamed the W. Still some R68's on the Q, but not much.
2. The 6 was running express S/B from 42nd St/GC to BB and the 7 line was not running west of QbP. But try telling that to some C/R's on the lettered lines when making announcements, typical as usual. Don't they have the list of G.O.'s on them when they are on duty?
3. Announcment on the Lexington line: "...there is no #7 train service at Grand Central. For 7 train service transfer at 59th st for the N or W train to Queensboro Plaza, or trasfer at 51st Street to the E and V trains...". Someone needs to read a subway map.
4. Signs at 125th st/Lexington Ave finally corrected, on the downtown local side, the "late nights, 4 train stops here" is covered. Man this confused people since the signs say the #4 train uses BOTH sides at night.
5. Interesting announcement on a S/B #4 train, C/R did let us know that the #7 was not running but told customers that to get to the #7 in Queens, take the shuttle to Times Square and walk through passageway to the E at 42nd/PA and take E to Roosevelt. HUH?? Can you take the #6 to 51st St and save all this trouble walking?
National ERA has a Web site too
-- Two days of full fan trip coverage of the MUNI streetcar system using various PCC's, the "Boat", a Milan Peter Witt, and Muni 130
-- One day bus trip to San Jose to ride/tour the light rail there (which I missed because I was dumb and screwed up the departure time)
-- One day bus trip to Rio Vista railway museum
The only thing we didn't fan trip (officially) or have any sort of tour was BART, but maybe this time will include it. I ended up staying out there 9 days (if you haven't been to SF you will want to extend your stay, if you are thinking of going).
I enjoyed BART too. I only rode one line, the line to Richmond, where there is also an AMtrack station. It feels kinda like a cross between subway and commuter rail.
Is this true? if not does anyone have the story behind it?
Secondly, they are building like crazy in the area. On the Ave X bound side, Smith 9th Station, looks like a Gigantic "Loews" is being built. (probably to knock out the Hamilton Ave Home Depot and honestly in my opinion well deserved)
Has there ever been any talk of changing 4th Ave Station for both local and express service? with all this building lately, has the topic come up in the MTA?
At one point wasnt there even talk of tearing down that overpass and submerging that section of the F line?
Actually I believe it's a "Lowes" that is being built at that location.
I thought it was the name of a hairpin bend on the Monte Carlo Grand Prix.
When watching the Grand Prix of Monaco earlier this year, I kept thinking of the hardware store. Oddly, when I saw mention of "Loews" here, I thought of the movie theater...
I always thought the IND designers were being generous at 4th Ave & 9th St. Especially when you consider the lack of any transfer between Atlantic/Pacific & Fulton/Lafayette or between Jay St & Lawrence St.
I don't mind that they're both local stops. It preserves the nice long run between 36th St and Pacific St on the BMT. And a good amount of space between 7th Ave and Bergen St (if ever they bring back the Culver express service).
Besides the MTA put at free transfer between Jay St & Lawrence St into the Capital Plan. That way folks on the 4th Ave express and the (possible) Culver express can all have a convenient transfer. Which is why I doubt the MTA will ever bother to spend the mega-bucks to make either 4th Ave or 9th St an express stop.
Secondly, they are building like crazy in the area.
With Park Slope becoming what it is, I hope the MTA will want to polish up the 4th Ave station, remove all the paint covered windows, install some plexiglass (or reasonable facsimile) and let the sun shine in. Many folks have described the station house as an art-deco-diamond-in-the-rough just waiting to shine.
When was Lawrence Street added as a station, before or after the IND was built? Remember that Lawrence St was not original to the line, it was built as an afterthought into the tunnel after the line was already up and running.
With Park Slope becoming what it is, I hope the MTA will want to polish up the 4th Ave station, remove all the paint covered windows, install some plexiglass (or reasonable facsimile) and let the sun shine in.
I agree, but I think this is more in line of what they will more than likely do at 4th Ave:
The windows at the Franklin Avenue Shuttle terminal have remained, so far, pristine. But then again I don't see many people loiter anywhere near those windows. They all wait by the platform.
People could watch the traffic go by.
Good point. How about this...the eye-level window panes could be clear and the upper window panes could be stained glass. The waiting commuters' eyes are drawn upwards and voil! The pice de rsistance of the station.
Have you seen some of those glass stained windows? They are like rocks and extremely durable. At Myrtle-Broadway, they are even right in the signs, and people lean against them with their foot and they are fine:
I guess at 4th Ave they could make some clear glass cutouts to be able to look out too.
Hehehe, yeah the experience of waiting for a train at 4th Ave could be like going to church or synagogue.
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/SUBWAYS/4thavestation/4Ave.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/01/nyregion/01RENT.html
Metro has thrown down the gauntlet, and what a 21st-century gauntlet it has thrown.
Strapped for cash, our subway moguls are planning to abandon the quiet, calm look of their trains and stations. Here come TV sets inside each car, spewing ads 24/7/365. Here come swoopy, animated commercials along the outside of each previously sleek and simple train. If the Metro board has its way, our subway will soon look as if Disney took it by the throat and said, "Bor-r-r-r-ring."
Of course, boringness was always the whole point. Metro never had the clatter of New York's IRT, the filth of Boston's T or the shuddering 19th-century-ness of Chicago's El. In Washington, the whole experience was supposed to be cathedral-like -- and it has been. If it ain't broke . . .
But the budget is. So Metro is willing to cashier peace and quiet to obtain a few dollars.
To say the least, I'm not happy about this. Neither are thousands of others. If customers abandon Metro because of its new pinball machine look, the system might lose as much in vanished revenue as it gains from squiggly, blaring ads.
Permit me to introduce you to a man who got it about Metro's calm, collected look. Reason: He invented it. His name was Harry Mohr Weese.
Weese was the Chicago architect who took 16 years to design our subway. More than 27 years ago, a young reporter named Bob Levey hopped a plane to Chicago, where he interviewed Weese for The Washington Post on the eve of Metro's first great expansion -- from a downtown lunch-hour toy to a 24-stop, 17-mile system.
"This was the nation's capital, after all," Weese told me. His marching orders were to produce "an imperial subway. We were winning the war in Vietnam, remember? We could have guns and butter."
Weese proposed several design fillips that the Metro board rejected. He asked for backlit lists of stations, rather than Metro's infamously hard-to-read pylons. He also recommended individual reading lights inside cars, similar to those in airliners. Both proposals were shot down for lack of funds.
As for station design, Weese told me that the waffle-grid finish on Metro's vaulted ceilings was a way to achieve "that cathedral-like quality. We wanted it to be dignified and serious. We wanted people to be respectful of their surroundings and of each other."
Re-read those last two sentences. Is there anything in Metro's new advertising plan that you would describe as "dignified," "serious" or "respectful"?
Obviously, much change has come to the original Weese design. Signage is much easier to read. Farecard machines now accept credit cards. Message boards tell you how soon the next train will arrive. In-car announcements can be heard outside cars, too. It's all proof that change can be good, that change is inevitable.
But why is garishness inevitable? To allow TV sets in every car and squiggly, moving ads outside every car would do major violence to Harry Weese's great plan, and to his memory.
text of article from the NY Times.
--Mark
I strongly doubt that any LIRR train will ever see an A/C tunnel. It would be a hugely expensive job that would probably have a negative impact on many more riders than it would help.
I think getting the LIRR to lower Manhattan is a pipe dream today. It did exist once (as a result of the BRT-LIRR track sharing agreement of 1897-1917) but it will never exist again.
LIRR Tunnel on Forgotten NY
LIRR I believe ran it with steam until steam was banned. Horse drawn carriges did the trip I believe, until finally LIRR re-started service, but only to Flatbush Av.
I'd like to see the LIRR extended into Manhattan, connecting with the PATH and various subway lines at the proposed Lower Mahattan transit hub.
Build the new WTC station as a through station, with its East end at Broadway, then a second Downtown Manhattan station with its West end at William St, then continuing a new East River tunnel (aligned roughly Maiden La - Orange St) under Nassau St (Brooklyn), Ashland Pl, then connecting into the LIRR at Flatbush Terminal.
So how about that? Newark to Far Rockaway, Hoboken to Babylon, whatever... What does anyone think?
That wouldn't stop a PATH train running on the LIRR, however, which was what I was suggesting.
If PATH were to go anywhere, I'd connect it somehow with the #6 at Brooklyn Bridge, in effect merging the PATH into the IRT, and connecting two lines that end nearby each other and go in different directions. I can dream!!
:-D "This is Woodhaven Junction. This train is for Howard Beach. The next stop is Howard Beach."
Build the new WTC station as a through station, with its East end at Broadway, then a second Downtown Manhattan station with its West end at William St, then continuing a new East River tunnel (aligned roughly Maiden La - Orange St) under Nassau St (Brooklyn), Ashland Pl, then connecting into the LIRR at Flatbush Terminal.
So how about that? Newark to Far Rockaway, Hoboken to Babylon, whatever... What does anyone think?
1) It will serve a new cooridor
2) It will connect to the air train - that is owned by the Port Authority.
A) it can be advertise as a connecting service for the two airports - Newark and JFK.
However, it is pretty expensive because of the size of the cars and the underwater tunnel needs to be built to connect it to Flatbush. But in comparison to the IND.. I think it's a better choice. It does not duplicate services that is already served by the IND A/C lines. And I like the fact it offers a one seat ride from New Jersey and a greater part of New York City.
I see another downside to the path.. The cars are too small.. It will have to run very frequent to be a very effective service. With all the cost involved, I see a better choice in running the IND - which will mean duplicating servic then extending the PATH. But the cheapest idea will be building a third track on the J/Z lines and run it as a special airport service.
The advantage is the lack of bottlenecks that is more prevalent on the A/C lines.
Just an opinion.
N Bwy
That's the great unknown...
However, it is pretty expensive because of the size of the cars
The width of the cars is not the problem - as long as the train length is the same it's not worth worrying about.
It will have to run very frequent to be a very effective service.
PATH does run very frequently. 40tph in rush hour IINM. That'll really boost ridership.
The way you seet the Montague tunnel.. I see that DITCH of a route you call seabeach.. It offers no view of the neighborhood it travel in.. At least the Brighton Line has a wonderful express service...
Anyway, I don't like you attacking the Montague tunnel.. I actually like it, because when everything else fails... It becomes the only viable alternative...
N Broadway
Ps: Stop picking on the Germans.. because it's turning to something very ugly on another thread.
Hey, but Fred - even if the N train still went across the bridge, wouldn't it have been cross-(platform)-contaminated by now at Pacific St?
Why am I not surprised?
To Be continued!
N Bwy
1. LIRR already goes to Manhattan.
2. It already connects to PATH at 33rd Street.
3. Current Penn destination of LIRR is not much differnt from Atlantic Ave., requiring a subway connection to a lot of destinations. I think making the station more atracctive is all that's needed and it's being done as we speak.
Arti
2. It doesn't connect, the tunnel was closed years ago, but should be re-opened
3. If LIRR went to downtown, it would mean less time for some people, and crowding on subways would decrease
If the Nostrand Avenue stop was removed and LIRR riders were given a free transfer at Jamaica, then...
GP38's "super express" would be an enormous hit with E, J, Z, LIRR, & AirTrain riders at Jamaica as well as A, C, J, L, & Z riders at Broadway Junction headed Downtown Brooklyn and/or Lower Manhattan. Thus reduce congestion on those subway lines.
The Port Authority would love it. It would make the AirTrain more attractive to Brooklynites and Manhattanites because it would be a one-seat ride, that's one to three stops away depending on where to catch it.
The Mayor would love it. It would make Downtown Jamaica, Downtown Brooklyn, and even East New York more attractive real estate for people and businesses thanks to reduced commutes. This would be in line with Bloomberg's plans to decentralize the city away from Manhattan.
Councilmen from Downtown Brooklyn, East New York, and Jamaica would love it. Bruce Ratner would see dollar signs. And Marty Markowitz would burn off 50 pounds doing cartwheels.
It would bypass 121 St to Cypress Hills, but then go local between Crescent Ave and B'way Junction. There would only be a peak direction express to and from the AirTrain terminal. That would be reasonable if JFK has a morning commute and a reverse evening commute. Plus it would bypass Atlantic Terminal.
Yes, it would improve the commute of J & Z riders, and I too support such an improvement, but it could not have the same effect as a dedicated super express.
Nope, it would rise up through the Cypress Hills station, over the Manhattan Bound local track, continue as a one track express over Jamaica Ave and rejoin the locals at Broadway Junction, thus skipping the entire Fulton St part of the J line.
In the past year or so, new outlets of two established businesses (Sleepy's and Mrs. Fields' Cookies) have opened their doors at the building now occupying the space where the downtown hub is supposed to go. These openings occurred after substantial renovation of the existing premises. Are these business going to be thrown out?
I wonder why.. that will provide a shorter transfer to lines enter upper manhattan and Brooklyn.
N Bwy
The total allocated I believe is $2.7 Billion specifically for a new PATH terminal at the World Trade Center site as well as a new Fulton Street Subway Complex, the two transit hubs will be connected by an under ground concourse that stretched from the World Financial Center's Winter Garden, through the World Trade Center Site, then to the Fulton Street station.
The permanant PATH station is going to be designed by Spainish Architecht Santiago Calabvatrava, the MTA has yet to designate who will design the Fulton Street Terminal. However they have pledged to save, restore and somehow incorporate the Singer building into the complex.
The site plan for the World Trade Center is nearly complete, they are to reveil the Memorial plan later this Month. When they announce the selection of the Memorial plan that will be the final step which will then allow rebuilding to go foward.
http://www.renewnyc.com/plan_des_dev/transportation/default.asp.htm
Way too late for the Singer--that came down in 1967. However the Corbin Building, Bway and John, will be saved. How you incorporate that ornate, rococo building into a modern design? We'll have to see.
www.forgotten-ny.com
One Liberty Plaza is now on its site.
N Bwy
The Federal Government gave all the money upfront for these two transit projects today, it's been paid for in advance.
"December 4, 2003
$2.85 Billion for 3 Transit Sites, With Strings
By DAVID W. DUNLAP
Substituting discreet electronic transfers for the poster-size checks that politicians like to hand out whenever cameras are near, the federal Transportation Department sent New York State $1.15 billion yesterday for two Lower Manhattan projects.
A third grant of $1.7 billion is to follow soon.
Norman Y. Mineta, the transportation secretary, looked empty-handed when he arrived at the World Trade Center PATH Station to announce $2.85 billion in grants. Asked where the money was, he smiled and said, "It's in the mail." To which Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg added, "The federal government doesn't drive up a truck into the back and out pours bills."
No, but it turned out that the Federal Transit Administration electronically transferred $750 million for the new Fulton Street Transit Center a few hours before the announcement. Later, it wired $400 million for renovating the South Ferry subway station. Today or tomorrow, $1.7 billion will arrive to help pay for the permanent PATH terminal being designed by Santiago Calatrava.
In what the federal transit administrator, Jennifer L. Dorn, called a "unique appropriation," the government made the grants immediately for projects that are years from completion.
This does not amount to a windfall; the accounts can be drawn down only on a schedule agreed to by the federal government. But state officials believe that having the grants up front will save time by eliminating the need to keep going back to the government for reimbursement at each phase of the development.
Mr. Mineta called the grants a "down payment" on a commitment of $4.55 billion for transportation projects in the city.
The Fulton Street center, on Broadway, will untangle several subway lines. The South Ferry project will replace a loop track with stub-end platforms. Both are to be finished in 2007. The permanent PATH terminal is to be completed between 2007 and 2009.
In piercing cold, Gov. George E. Pataki and Mr. Bloomberg took Mr. Mineta on a tour of the temporary open-air PATH station, including an emergency exit platform that offers a 360-degree panorama of the surrounding foundations.
"The towers aren't here," the governor could be overheard telling Mr. Mineta as they made their way through the station, "but this is still the site of the World Trade Center."
Copyright 2003 The New York Times Company"
FAO Schwartz used to be a great place to watch model trains in action, but they took down their displays about nine years ago. Anywhere else in the city or LI I could try?
Thanks.
Do they also sell them there?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
--Mark
www.members.tripod.com/~KnightTime/bayridgemodelrailroadclub.html
We visited 12/27 ($3 adults, $1 kids) and they had the freight trains going, plus MTH cars on the el and the trolley too. Oddest thing - the freight lines have a side 3rd rail but the el has a center 3rd rail (where a side one would be protoypical)!!
To the south of the LIE is the Central Operating Lines. This is another O gauge layout. It is a club. They have open houses with free admission on Dec. 27, 28 and Jan. 24 from noon to 5. Their website can be found at http://www.trainweb.org/centoplines/index.htm
What I usually do is hit the Wrong Island RR then hit the Mickey D's off Hawkins for a Happy Meal & bathroom useage before going to the Central Operating Lines.
- Central Operating Lines = Sat., Dec 27th & Sun., 28th + Sat. Jan 24th
They are in Ronkonoma (631-472-3395) www.Trainweb.org
- TMB Model Train Club (only have a 2002 schedule, but was week-end after Christmas & the one after New Year's). They are in Babylon.
(631-225-0659) www.TMBTrainclub.com
- Town of Freeport Rec, Ctr will probally host a show the week after New Year's
- Northrop-Grumman Model RR Soc had a show in mid-Jan last year
- The West Island Model RR Club had, pastents a open house in Nov.
- Sunrise Train Div had, pastents a show in October
The East Side Access tunnels themselves, 5 in number as they fan out from the existing 41 Av tunnel's lower level, will emerge at the surface within Harold Interlocking.
http://www.parsons.com/about/press_rm/potm/08-2001/index.html
Just to ID the bridges in this picture:
From farthest to closest, crossing the LIRR:
Hunters Point Avenue
Thomson Avenue
Queens Blvd
Honeywell St
39th Street
43rd Street
That last on 43rd Street, however, is not a bridge. The street passes under the LIRR ROW at this point.
It looks like the Sunnyside station will be placed closer to the east side of the Queens Blvd. Bridge, to serve LaGuardia Community College, and that general area.
I found this on CNN.com. Can someone explain what Rumsfeld meant?
LONDON, England (Reuters) -- A comment last year by Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld on the hunt for Iraq's weapons of mass destruction was awarded the "Foot in Mouth" prize Monday by Britain's Plain English Campaign.
Rumsfeld, renowned for his uncompromising tough talking, received the prize for the most baffling comment by a public figure.
"Reports that say something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know," Rumsfeld told a news briefing.
"We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns -- the ones we don't know we don't know."
John Lister, spokesman for the campaign, which strives to have public information delivered in clear, straightforward English, said: "We think we know what he means. But we don't know if we really know."
Its importance is arguable; its appropriateness on this board isn't.
I still find it incredibly amusing :).
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3256884784
As for the Metrocard $399 is not out of the ordinary for a card from the original issue. The NY Times card from about the same time went on ebay for over $800.
The WTC card is scarce enough but considering that this is the Holiday shopping season will anyone want to spend the $399 (or more) now. QWith ebay you never know.
I have the original set in a case, but none of the next six.
I am sure the seller is gambling on that fact.
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/longisland/ny-lidrag1201,0,3226371.story?coll=ny-top-headlines
Gonna be real fun when Englishtown closes....
Meanwhile, elected politicians trip over each other to build stadiums for football teams that can't make the playoffs, letalone win the Superbowl with any usable regularity.....
LIMP was a sucky strip, but the town didn't know a good thing when they saw it. Those with streetable cars will be on the streets (surprise!), those with track cars are now stuck with the nice few hour trek to Maple Grove (very nice strip, but a pain to get to), or dealing with Englishtown (a long as it lasts, and oh yeah, got a muffler the size of a 50 gallon drum?). I think there's one in northern NJ, but it might be a 1/8th - yuck. Last dragster I was in, 1/4 felt too short (but actually took 8 seconds....)
The east end's too developed as it is, I'm waiting for someone to propose simply paving it like Nassau is...
Another reason I want to get my ass off of LI.....
PA Press Release
After someone guesses the location correctly, I'll pose my question.
Hot Dawg -- We Have A Weiner!
WHY IS IT TAKING SO LONG TO RENOVATE ONE SET OF STAIRCASES AT THE 40TH ST SIDE?
Its all about the labor, my friend. The longer it takes, the more bucks one rakes.
Whoops! Did I said 76?
76 and COUNTING.....
:P
LMFAO.
Look at what someone wrote above where it says 10/03.
James Bond, here we come.
-From "Thunderball" (1965)
Why does everyone think it's at Roosevelt?
They post before reading the previous responses. It's a dirty, dirty habit.
Though Roosevelt is a good guess, as there is construction going on there as well. There is a new staircase that opened on the Jamaicabound platform.
Why was your 5 rerouted? I don't know. Maybe somebody sneezed at 86th Street.
"This is a Brooklyn-bound <5> Express train, via the 7th Avenue Line. The next stop is...34th Street-Penn Station."
I took a picture of it at 14th Street.
You can tell it's not a 2 by the diamond-shaped area above the end door.
VC Madman
VC Madman
Why?
VC Madman
R62A and R62 are two totally different things. Same goes with R142 and R142A.
Sorry to nitpick. I'll only go back to the Transit Museum store at GCT when they start selling Redbird numberplates again.
The "Redbird Parts Coming Soon" banner has been on the mainpage for SO long...
The fleet has already bowed.
WTF are they gonna commence the sales?
Regards,
Jimmy
Regards,
Jimmy
Not exactly. UNOFFICIALLY the "JJ" lasted right into 1986 on the R16s that operated on the "J". There was no rollsign for "J", so they displayed the orange "JJ" signs instead. :)
R32 to the Roof
R38 to the Gate
This Is What I Live For...
R 46's run second ... all due to design..
N Broadway Line
R32:
R38:
More pics
Hope that helps.
N Broadway
R-38's run only on the A and C. R-32's run on all of the lines you mention.
Differences:
R32/R32A:
-Fluted stainless steel up to roof level.
-Front is entirely fluted stainless steel (but sign bonnet is flat stainless steel).
-Number plates slightly similar to those on all post-R42's (not including the R42's) but in an uglier font. They're also smaller than the old-style number plates.
-Headlights and taillights bulge out separately redbird-style.
-Nothing on blind panel except door indicator light.
R38:
-Fluted stainless steel on lower half, flat stainless steel on upper half.
-Front is fluted stainless steel on the lower half and flat stainless steel on the top half. The sign bonnet has a large frame around the LED sign which is the width of the storm door.
-Old-style number plates.
-Headlights and taillights do not bulge out as much and each set is together (different design, but also made by Lovell-Dressel).
-The blind panel has a door indicator light, a TA logo II, and a radio antenna.
You're seeing an R38. Anything else would be R32 (except for #3348, but that's a different story).
R-32.
Well, if they were cats, you would lift up their hind legs and look.
Oh well.... I guess I got tired of this thread, having seen the 38s arrive on the system you could instantly tell them appart.
: ) Elias
R-32.
Plus, was cleaning up my hard drive and found a Q418 that I never put up from back in January. This was taken the morning after the derailment on the Low Grade near Wayne Junction. If the neighborhood wasn't a demilitarized zone, would be a good place to watch, with the CSX Trenton Line, the SEPTA Main Line and the Richmond Industrial Track. Count how many SEPTA trains go by while the Q418 passes under.
http://www.trainweb.org/oaksmodelrr/Video/Index.html
And it's amazing why some cars feel the need to pull in front of trolleys and trains.
Maybe I'm seeing this wrong, but to me it looks like the trolley overran a traffic light due to poor track conditions. Note that the traffic lights are red and the trolley narrowly misses not one but two vehicles. If there's anyone being stupid here, it's the trolley operator for driving too fast for the track conditions.
I was watching, and it looks like the guy/girl was just sitting there waiting to make a turn. The moment the trolley passed the stop-bar I see him pull in front and STOP in front of the streetcar. You either sit there and wait, or gun the engine and start moving, you dont' pull in front, and sit there waiting for the thing to T-bone you. or you RUN out of the car and away from the collision. Trucks, buses, suvs, this applys to.
And the, and I could be seeing this wrong, but it looks like the #%#$@ moron backs up after 4-8 seconds of staring at the trolley a foot from his face, instead of moving on or whatever.
That person needs a defensive driving course, because that mercedes still failed in about 3 instances, trolley having problems or not.
Also note the near miss with the white van. Hitting that would have hurt a bit more than merely turning the Mercedes into scrap metal.
At Herald Square the parade is actually just west of 6th Ave. so probably would not have gone under the old El.
Regards,
Jimmy
Regards,
Jimmy
Regards,
Jimmy
Try your hand at these: more NYC photos with no definite locations listed
This one is definitely either Knickerbocker or Central Ave on the M Line because it has an express trackway, but no track. Probably Central because of the lack of buildings near the canopy:
This one is also more than likely Central Ave for the same reasons above:
This one is definitely Knickerbocker Ave because I recognize that building on the left:
FWIH it had no switches after it began just south of Central Ave and was practically useless.
That's what puzzles me. If you look at the trackway it just sort of dead ends just south of the Seneca Ave station. I thought that possible the swithces may have been somewhere just past Wyckoff near the tower, and maybe an additional lay-up stub track went to Seneca. I heard what you just said once before though. I know that the express track was added in anticipation of the Canarsie line coming through Wyckoff on an el from Montrose Ave. The Tower may have been built with that in mind also. The early form NIMBY's in Bushwick got them to make the line underground instead.
Wyckoff may have looked something like Myrtle-Broadway if this elevated Canarsie line came to fruit.
That's what I thought for years, assuming that Wykoff was used as a terminal for Park Row bound el service during rush hours.
This one is on the Pelham Line at the end of the Manhattan-bound Castle Hill Ave station.
Bay Parkway, West End Line.
IRT Broadway Line, 207th St Van-Cortlandt bound platform, facing south
86th St, Sea Beach. Proximity of the old gas tank in the background is the giveaway.
Coney island Yard, outer loop track, adjacent to Belt Parkway, which is barely seen to the left of the D unit.
20th Ave, Sea Beach.
IRT Broadway Line, 225th Street, facing north.
This one is on the Pelham Line at the end of the Manhattan-bound Castle Hill Ave station.
Bay Parkway, West End Line.
IRT Broadway Line, 207th St Van-Cortlandt bound platform, facing south
86th St, Sea Beach. Proximity of the old gas tank in the background is the giveaway.
Coney island Yard, outer loop track, adjacent to Belt Parkway, which is barely seen to the left of the D unit.
20th Ave, Sea Beach.
IRT Broadway Line, 225th Street, facing north.
I'm 90% sure this is Broad Channel.
20th Ave, Sea Beach, facing north
IRT Flushing Line at 33rd St, facing 40th St
Sure looks like 74th / Roosevelt Ave, front of Manhattan-bound platform
Kings Highway, Sea Beach?
That's all the time I had, folks :)
--Mark
Good Work Sleuth Mark.
Definatley Church Ave/Brighton
Before my time, but near Grand Ave cutoff?
Before my time, but Rockaway, Saratoga, Ralph, Reid, Troy, Tompkins or Nostrand/Fulton?
Any station along existing Liberty Ave elevated
Possibly Knickerbocker Ave (green church spire dead giveway?)?
Bingo. No doubt. Definitely Knickerbocker. That big building on the right is still there.
Before my time, but Rockaway, Saratoga, Ralph, Reid, Troy, Tompkins or Nostrand/Fulton?
I agree with those too. The construction of the roofline narrows it down to Broadway, Rebuilt Fulton, Liberty, and Jamaica. The end construction narrows it further down to Liberty or rebuilt Fulton. It might not be an exact narrowing down, but it is almost definitely somewhere along either the rebuilt but now demolished Fulton line, or one of the remaining stations on the Liberty El.
On a similar note, Does anyone recognize this building? This is also either the Liberty El or the demolished Fulton line. If you get one of these photos, we got two. It's not Broadway or Jamaica because although the stations were built similar, they didn't have that type of railings. (on Broadway they had railings where they could built in billboards).
I'm thinking it may be one of the Fulton stations because unless that building is demolished, I have never seen it on a current line.
Here's our mystery photo again:
You are right, the photo appears to have been taken in the 50's, so that would rule out west of Rockaway Ave. I don't think there any "dual contracts" side platform stations east of Rockway.
The train appears to be on a fantrip. I'm still not sure about Broadway. The buildings to the left of that big building appear to be a "newer" type of building than what appear on Broadway, and Broadway's stations don't have railings with bars like that, they were railings with built in "ad panels", such as in the next photo taken at Chauncey St, that's why I keep ruling out Broadway. Jamaica Ave may have had "bar" railings without ad panels.
How about 111th or 160th Street? Anything like that building there, that has/had a center track. 160th had too many large buildings around it to be that photo I think, but what about 111th? The buildings to the left of that large building are consistant with many on Jamaica Ave and in this photo, it appears like there are "bar" type railings WITHOUT ad panels. In addition, in the bottom photo of 111th, there is a large building that looks like it could be the building to the right of the "ornate" building in the top mystery photo. Now, compare the top mystery photo to the bottom 111th St photo, that large building appears to be in both, and taking into consideration the railings, I think it's 111th St. What do you guys think?
This would then also be 111th St?
This would then also be 111th St?
I'll look forward to finding out what it was, and is, now. Karl B or Paul Matus may know.
Grimace, how about "Lipschitz" as well as "Lipshutz" (lips shut) ?
I know a couple who legally changed their name from Lipschitz to Lipsin, to end the inevitable razzing.
Amazing isn't it? All of Broadway went down in flames. Check out the Kosciuszko St section too on this site. There are buildings everywhere in the old photos, and anyone that visits the station now knows there's basically no buildings around it now, just like Chauncey.
The top photo is the photo in question. The 2 other pictures are at 80/Hudson for reference. I believe Chris R27/30 was the one who thought this might be on the old Fulton el. Looking at the picture, beyond the train I noticed that there are station columns. To the best of my knowledge, the Liberty el is the only type to have this particular type as shown. As to which station it might be gets difficult. From pictures that I have available to me, the rebuilt section of the Fulton el from Hinsdale to Nostrand looked just like the Broadway el. To me it looks like it could be 80/Hudson. The trees at the end of the station and their height automatically leads me to believe of the old cemetery (Bayside, I believe) which is shown in the second photo south of the station. There is really not much else to go on. I zeroed in on this piece of wood that is next to the 3rd rail in the photo. What that piece of wood is for I am not exactly sure of. In the last photo taken from the opposite side it appears that that same piece of wood might be in the picture. It is too dark to tell for sure but it looks like it might be in the same place. Like I said, it could be 80/Hudson but who knows? What do you think?
101st Avenue "takes off" from the north side of Liberty Avenue beginning at Grant Avenue. Oh for an image of the Grant Avenue station on the old Fulton el !
The "questionable note" on this photo is correct as This one is definitely 125th Street, as this photo taken at 125th Street is the same train, the same day, and the same backround.
So if a streeter gets a 100 and a Promo gets a 70, the Promo is called first before the Streeter. This is Civil Service Law.
Seriously, I know some folks who are doing that and they're VERY good. The old-timers who are doing the TA shuffle STILL have 32's (remarkably similar to redbirds undercar, just bigger) and other cars to avoid "computer duty" ... but as always, those TWU folks who know they MUST adapt have done so in stride ... for your ride. Agggh. :)
Its early days in this technology, but why shouldnt it be applied to rail cars, which are much more expensive? A 10% maintenance cost savings is worthwhile money!
For all the FEARS of new tech, Car Equipment and such, those who remain TWU members are GETTING "future training" or have picked off to where the "old cars" will keep them busy until they check out of this fakacta motel ("bad yiddish" INTENTIONAL, please don't BOTHER to correct me, went for Phonics fer dem goyim) ... heh.
Bottom line, Car Equipment *HAS* folks who do that, as well as folks who do *THAT* ... :)
Regards,
Jimmy :P
When *I* worked the rails, car inspectors (CI's and RCI's) as well as Motorman Instructors (MMI's) showed you ALL the tricks to keep the railroad running despite MINOR qwap) and TAUGHT you to "flip the boxes on the journals" as part of your wakeup "walkthrough" to make sure they were lubed ... ONCE upon a time, ALL of us in TWU were in the same army and we all got along as best we could ... aside from a few of us "white boys" who sided with "rank and file" faction ...
But "Special High Intensity Training" seems to be unfortunately the accepted "norm" these days. Once upon a time, us hourlies were ONLY concerned with running the damned railroad DESPITE the problems. I suppose now that there AREN'T "real" problems, too many damned wigs. :(
But as to the "new tech" folks ... they really DO have about as much of a grip as the vendors will ALLOW ... don't sell DCE short ... PLENTY of good, knowedgeable people there who MAKE TRAINS GO.
I suspect most of the propulsion trouble's going to be figuring out WHICH part's bad, at which point you swap out modules and let someone in a far away place with a magic soldering iron worry about it....
Can't argue though that a WISE person will want to keep up. Fortunately for the TA and those who work there, there's still plenty of good work for those who haven't, so everybody still wins. :)
http://www.nynewsday.com/news/local/transportation/nyc-nyferr023567446dec02,0,4856724.story?coll=nyc-topheadlines-left
Delta ran a water taxi to LGA for a while and then stopped it. Did they not market it enough, or are there really not enough customers? Bloomberg thinks this can work.
The reson that the Roosevelt Island's aerial tramway was built is because Coast Guard regulations were such a problem.
A relevant question is: Are there known navigational hazards around Roosevelt Island?
Also, I don't know if this would help, but I think they should run express and local versions of this service.
Express: WFC(if they choose to have a stop there)-Pier 11(the origin of the old LGA ferry)-60th st(or anywhere between 58th and 63rd sts)-LGA
Local: WFC-Pier 11-Fulton Ferry Landing-LIC-60th st-Roosevelt Island(northern end, not the tip, but close to the residential area)(No passengers will be provided service between Roosevelt Island and 60th st/92nd st)-92nd st-Randall Island(limited service?)-LGA
WTF!!!!!! Did I not just suggest that here? No, I am not saying that the city stole my idea, but it is weird. And I had that same terminus at JFK as well, Bergen Boat Basin. I really think this one cud be a major hit, IF ADVERTISED PROPERLY! Airtrain would also have to construct a new stop, or is there some stop near the boat basin already like the article implies?
Also, question. It's a really crazy idea, but, do any city officials or anybody in the transit dept of the city look at this site. It's just so weird that I've never heard the plan before, all while it was so obvious to me. It hit me as soon as I looked at my hagstrom map. Now, not even a month later, NYC is proposing the very same line? It just seems like such an odd coincidence that it just might be.
And yes, you should.
I encourage you to write. They should be hearing from you.
Like I said, there'd be an express service mainly to serve JFK, and a local service mainly to serve communities in the city, while giving them the option of taking the ferry to JFK.
:0)
Boats are slower than land vehicles. There is of course traffic that slows down land vehicles, and stops and wait times for rapid transit vehicles, but a ferry boat would be less direct than any of those modes.
"BoatTrain"?
What idea? Serving an airport you don't own, or using the ferryboats you don't have?
Hey, I hear you about the coincidences though. Me, I remember walking along the CRRNJ ROW from Bayonne into Newark in the late seventies, and thinking how sad I was that there was no train service along there any more. (Except for the Cranford Shuttle, into Elizabeth which I actually happened to stumble upon one day after walking over the Bayonne Bridge. Sure an' Begorra, I caught the train at the old 8th Street station to boot!) I looked at the area and was amazed at the high density of the ROW territory. It seemed a natural for this line to have passenger service returned to it, and I wasn't shy about expressing this viewpoint to others. 20 years later, comes the HBLRT. And I could point out other weird coincidences, some with a timespan of only a year or two. Ever hear the expression, "When it comes time to railroad, you railroad."?
Think of it this way: great minds think alike.
That ferry to Rockaway Beach, I thought it left from Sheepshead Bay. That's what my old hagstrom says, unless they had 2 ferry routes or moved it from Canarsie Pier to Sheepshead bay.
How did that ferry do anyway?
I'll take note on that saying you reminded me of, great minds think alike. I just don't know though if I'm thinkin like NYC and the PA that I've got such a great mind, or even worse, if they're thinkin like me. lol.
In any event, this was before the Marine Parkway Bridge. The only way to the Rockaways without going around through what is now the Five Towns (Rockaway Turnpike/Boulevard) was by ferry.
Kramer: Look at this, they are redoing the Cloud Club.
Jerry: Oh, that restaurant on top of the Chrysler building? Yeah, thats a good idea.
Kramer: Of course its a good idea, its my idea. I conceived this whole project two years ago.
Jerry: Which part? The renovating the restaurant you dont own part or spending the two hundred million you dont have part?
(* I can't remember if "they" were the LMDC, the Port Authority, Pataki, Bloomberg, or someone else.)
But given that in the near future, both the LIRR and the A train will provide service from Manhattan to JFK at what will presumably be much lower fares (the Delta Water Shuttle to LGA cost $15 one way, even though Delta subsidized its operation), exactly how popular will a JFK ferry be? It's not like the situation at LGA, where the only transit access is via buses that can be overcrowded and get significantly delayed in local traffic congestion.
As for the LGA ferry, it wont work unless they have an airport shuttle to go to the other terminals, and they need to advertise throughout the airport and a few commercials.
Unlike the route to LGA, which is reasonably sheltered water all the way, the route to JFK would seem to require the ferry to through some reasonably exposed ocean.
The ferry to JFK would probably do fairly well, and most likely will be very reliable. I mean, it doesn't get stuck in traffic, it doesn't have to worry about signals being knocked out. The only things that would slow up a ferry operation, along with really any operation of public transportation, is high winds, heavy rain, and snow/ice.
Not trying to make a point. Just wondering how rough it gets out there in winter, and whether that might lead to cancelled services.
I know Seastreak now operates ferry services to Highlands and Atlantic Highlands that must presumably face similar conditions, but I've no idea how often (if ever) they cancel.
According to their web site (http://www.seastreak.com/) their boats are 140' 400 seater catamarans. Not exactly a water taxi. :-)
Or, a heavier-than-air craft, to smoothly cross in a controlled float over Brooklyn and Queens. Perhaps, ala those drawings of 100 years ago, (and with computer controlled handling and stabilization of the vehicle,) have rooftop stations. Sure would make for an interesting skyline.
Am I serious? Prob'ly not.
Anyway, at 14th St, I hear Charlie say, "Transfer is available to the 1, F, L, and V trains. Connection is available to PATH trains." Good thing I was taping when it happened.
Also, hasn't there been a memo handed to all 2 line conductors telling them not to "ding out" the PATH announcement at Park Place? The station's been open for almost a week (as of Friday) and the conductor of the train I was on still dinged it out.
A big surprise (not as big as Charlie saying "V") came when I learned that the train I was on would run express south of President Street, stopping at Church Avenue ant Flatbush Avenue.
*pinches cheeks* lol
I was on an R-142A on the (6) that didn't have its strip maps updated. You know, it didn't have the new transfers pasted on top of the old ones.
Incognito
Perhaps the photographer was standing directly over the last set of catenary wires?
I seem to remember a lot of bridge abutments built for that Sheridan Expressway, and they stood unused for years when I lived in the Bronx.
Regards,
Jimmy
-Stef
The woman was dragged 4 feet. How long would that take? Just a couple of seconds? Her jacketed arm was in the door. She removed her hand, yet the jacket remained. The train operator got indication and moved. I assume the conductor scans both ends of the train as it pulls out. How much time did he have to react?
Did the train pulled out of the station? If the conductor pulled the cord, then I think he's off the hook.
Where were the grandchildren? On the station or in the car? If they were on the station, it would seem to me that the woman did try to hold back the doors.
Oddly, the woman credited God for guiding her. Would it be sacreligious to assign the blame in this case to the Almighty? Or does the woman bear responsibility for her actions?
If people were regularly and consistently sanctioned for truly frivolous lawsuits (easy to say, difficult to accomplish) this might be less of a problem.
Of course you can't sue the motorman and conductor since they are agents of the TA, but I added that in to enhance the example for this case.
>During tests, the system worked as designed, Seaton said.
To me this looks like they are setting up the c/r. In school car they told us that the sensor are sensitive to 1/16 of an inch. Now it would be VERY hard to drag someone by the hem of a coat that was that thin.
Now if she had cockroach killers on, the spot where the 2 doors join the floor can take an inch or three and stil give indication and from a monitor just look like someone is standing near the door.
You're the conductor. You're closing up at a station. A passenger runs up to a closing door on a non R142 and sticks his arm in the door. What does the rule book say you must do? Open up and allow the passenger in or jiggle the doors hoping the passenger removes his arm and you get your indication?
Let's say you jiggle the doors, get indication and leave the passenger standing on the platform. Are you required to give extra attention to ensure that the passenger is not stuck in the door?
Officials Say Train Sensors Were Fine
So even though it's the C/R's fault for not seeing this, the "victim" managed to disrupt N/B service on the rerouted #5 line. Imagine if this happened during rush hour?
One drag case on the M, the passenger claimed that on 2 track the OPTO T/O was smiling at them as he pulled out of the station dragging them out. It was established that no one else was in the cab. Operating a train while looking out your off side would make you VERY tall.
Depends on the material. You could easily strangle somebody with nylon that thin. Or mylar.
I am assuming that media accounts do not necessarily contain every detail of the case.
How long will the TA take to complete its investigation?
The thing the story doesn't say, how'd/when did the train stop or what happened that she got free. Was the platform crowded, did the conductor have a good view, etc...
If they can't prove that God told her to interfere with train operation, I hope there is a statute that does in the TA operations manual.
"What was your hand doing in the john between the doors?"
Religion is the opiate of the masses.
Having God on your side means having someone else to blame.
Some people draw inspiration from a supernatural concept and see it as empowering them to work and accomplish; others see it as convenient because it allows them to avoid facing responsibility for making choices.
Let it snow in College Park, MD!!!
Is LIPA really that pathetic?
This is in Greenvale, off Town Path road. Been like this for weeks. Told the house nearby they said they already called LIPA. Called LIPA again myself. The wires are drooping and actually 2 are off their insulators.
Again in Greenvale off Glen Cove road, there's another 3 phase primary wire going right through a tree
25A in Roslyn, a tree branch on one phase of wire
Another leaning pole, been this way since we got the remnants of Isabel.
So, you cant always fault the LIRR when they have signal problems in LIPA territory. More often than not, a power disruption messed up the signals.
LIPA's primary distribution lines are in such bad shape, I shudder to think what their secondary poles are like!
Chuck Greene
Despite the fact that as I have become older, my enthusiasm for snow has dropped markedly, I still believe in a white Christmaspreferably fresh snow on Christmas morning.
As for California being Gods country, I think God made it on the 6th day when he stopped to have some weed. Thats why it (and many of its inhabitants) are cracked!
Wait! I lived in the North East of England for many years. Like home!
Oh well.
I hear snow/rain for the trips this weekend, we shall see.
(sighs as the disappointment of no snow in the Rockaway flats on the A line)
Good thing the passageway along 50th between Broadway and 8th was closed today (why?), or I would have never known.
Whiteout!
Awaiting Todd Glickman's response, John!!!!!
The analogy is that that LIRR conductors and NYCTA motormen have no control over decisions made by their respective railroads' management.
Yesterday when it snowed I was on a comfortable MBTA Commuter Train (see, on topic!) bypassing all the people who were stuck on Boston area roads for hours. My commute took about one hour 15 minutes, about 15 minutes longer than usual. My secretary, who lives not far from me but drives to work, had her commute take THREE HOURS.
Hopefully, she'll learn her lesson!
John
Its been an number of years sense I last visited Metro Network's studio on Wisconsin Avenue in Freindship Heights, mid 1990s, so they may have moved sense then. Bob Marbourg does in fact work out of Metro Network's studio because thats where all of the traffic information is gathered and put in their data base used for the other Metro Network's subscriber. A number of the reporters heard on other stations are heard on more then one station, Such as the off peek reporters heard on WTOP.
Before Metro Network's set up shop in Washington, Bob Marbourg and Jim Russ use to do the reports from the field. Walt Starling flew his own plane out of Collage Park Airport for the reports he did for WMAL.
John
John
BTW, I believe you just insulted a fellow SubTalker with this posting...
Are those cars moved often, BTW?
So, was it snowing just 14-blocks from you, or was it the whole length of the 14-blocks that had snow? :)
What's the deal with that Orion VI though? That's a funky looking bus for an Orion, is the engine smaller or something? And even if it is, never seen an Orion with the door that far down.
Guy next to the bus got an interesting tag, "City USA", must be his own company or somthing.
Was it the Depression? The rise of the automobile? Robert Moses? Something else?
Actually all of the above.
However, what really prevented the Second System from advancing (it was never actuallt funded, so it was never actually "killed") was the fact that the City blew the rapid transit debt limit on the original system in its insistance on going it alone without the additiona of private capital, as in the Dual Contracts.
That's the answer, pure and simple.
It seems the Port Authority learned from that lesson when they built AirTrain under a DBOM (design-build-operate-maintain) contract with a consortium of private companies.
I wonder if the MTA has taken this into consideration for the SAS, 7-train Extenstion, et cetera?
Priorities changed, and highways and public housing was built, all within plans that would decentralize cities and make big new subways unneeded. This lasted until the 1970s, when cities started to be appreciated then, but the rot in mass transit was very advanced by then.
Either rusting hulks or very, very deep in debt. The SAS was needed, but if those repairs were put off any longer, the SAS might have ended up the only part of the system operational.
4 tracks over Manhattan Bridge have not been needed for 20 years, in that light Chrystie St connection is one of the most useless projects in MTA history. I'll take 2nd Av subway any time over it.
Arti
Yes - two lines to different places is better than to to practically the same place. The only bit of Chrystie that was a good idea was letting Broadway trains access the South Side of the Manny B. If they'd left in the connector to the North Side, service patterns would not have changed for the last 20 years.
The IND would have been totally worthwhile if it were built complimentary to what was already there. For instance:
2 tracks 212/Hillside to Continental, 4 tracks to 14/8 where 2 tracks join Canarsie Line, 2 tracks continue to Fulton Ferry then rise to take over El.
Arti
That's part true, and part false. I do agree, the IND was very redundant in some spots, but in others it was a good improvement. Unfortunately politics prevented it, but the BMT and IRT should have been taken over by the city and the IND properly incorporated into it.
-In Manhattan, the replacement and removal of the els was a good thing. The 8th Ave line is a good line, and enabled the abandonment of the 9th Ave El. The boondoggle was the building of the 6th Ave line before the 2nd Ave line. The money should have been spent on the 2nd Ave subway instead of the very expensive 6th Ave line. This would have allowed the proper abandonment of the 2nd and 3rd Ave els. The 6th Ave el could have been abandoned without the 6th Ave subway, as the Broadway line does basically what the 6th Ave line does. The 53rd Street tunnel could have been connected to the Broadway line somehow, and if money ever arose, the 6th Ave subway could have been part of the Second System.
-The Queens Blvd is a great addition to the system, and shouldn't have been built any differently.
-In Brooklyn, the IND's takeover of the Culver is also good, but it should also have been connected to the 4th Subway, and the original Clulver connection to 4th Ave should have remained. This would have allowed much flexiblity for normal routing, or emergency reroutes.
-south of West 4th is fine, except at Prince St there should have been a connection to the Broadway line, thus negating the need for the 6th Ave line further.
Redundancies:
-The Concourse line is a total waste of money, as it is redundant to the Jerome El The money should have been used to convert the Pelham line to the BMT/IND and improving the 3rd Ave line to allow Lexington Trains to run on it, negating the loss of the Pelham line (the 5 could have run there, and the 6 would run onto the West Farms/Dyre Line).
-The Fulton Subway was a total waste of money. The Fulton El was a Dual Contract El, worthy of subway cars. It should not have been built west of Broadway Junction (the section between BJ and the Liberty el should have been built as built, as it was either that or rebuilt the non-dual contract el, but the section west of Broadway Juction should not have been built) The Cranberry Tube should have been connected to the rebuilt portion of the Fulton El, and the money saved by not building the Fulton Subway could have been used by extending the line further into Queens where there was no service, isnstead of needlessly replacing perfectly good dual contract els.
If those redundancies were not done, we would have a bigger system today, and areas that have no service today may have it now. The Second System could have planned further expansion, and then, and only then could they have planned a "third system" that may have begun to replace some els with subway, such as on Fulton or Broadway (Brooklyn), etc. First expand the system, then worry about replacement in the system.
That Second System should have included a 5th Avenue subway instead. I understand the original objections to 5th Avenue transit, but 5th Avenue is mostly commercial south of 57th Street now and was by the 1930s, where would the NIMBYs be?
-Blair
Where was the pic of the S-curve with the man on the right?
2nd from the bottom.
I hpe the scum who murdered that young man last week in Far Rockaway die a miserable painful death!!
Guns dont kill People do!!!!!!!!
If citizens of this country were allowed to carry handguns onto airplanes,perhaps Sept 11 2001,would be just another normal day instead of the day of infamy it will always be.
19 evil men murdered THOUSANDS without 1 single bullet!!!!!!
ALL of you Anti-Gun Nuts think about that!!!
Evil is as Evil does!!!!!
Goldfinger (1964)
Executive Decision
U.S. Marshalls
The atmosphere at 30,000 feet is not a vacuum and an aircraft is not a spacecraft, not only can it not be perfectly sealed, there are valves on the plane that bleed air into the atmosphere to maintain pressure. A bullethole would be so small that it would be unlikely to cause any damage, a small air leak would result, and the existing outflow valves would be closed to make up for it. The chances of a massive structural disaster caused by a leaking airplane are between slim and nil.
In fact, on April 28, 1988, a major section of the roof of an Aloha Airlines Boeing 737-200 flew off in mid-flight causing a rapid depressurization of the aircraft at 24000 feet. The plane managed to land safely. The only major injuries were of flight attendants. One attendant was sucked into the stratosphere. Other flight attendants who were not seated with their seat belts on (I should point out that the seat belt light was still on) suffered various non-permanent injuries. The plane made an emergency landing at Maui Airport.
Very good, Pigs. If I recall correctly, the cabin pressure on a jetliner is set to about 6,000 feet altitude or so (I have read as much as 8,000). So the relative pressure difference in the Aloha airlines incident would have been 24,000 - 6,000 = 18,000 feet.
The aircraft's circulation system receives fresh air from the outside compressed to ambient cabin pressure and circulated inside; the system an also be set to recirculate air. There is a balance struck between fresh and recirculated air; the less fresh air from outside, the less demand on the engines, and the more fuel-efficient the aircraft becomes. This was a source of some controversy several years ago.
However, a relatively small amount of explosive in the right place (or A right place, as there is more than one) could cause a rapid structural failure and the loss of the aircraft.
Hyperbaric injuries from the decompression: the lungs arent built to withstand significant pressure differences between the outside and the inside.
Anoxia, which can lead to brain damage if continued.
"This was a tragedly that could have and SHOULD have been prevented if honest law abiding citizens were allowed to carry handguns!! If others had guns on that train I believe 100% that less than 6 people or even NO people would have been killed!!!!!!!!
Consider the close, confined space of a railroad car. If others on that train had guns then the death toll would have probably been even higher and Ferguson would still probably be alive.
"Guns dont kill People do!!!!!!!! "
And what do a lot of those people use? GUNS!!!!
Oh yeah. You think Hollywood ever paints an accurate picture of reality? Puhleeze!
If more good guys carried guns in NYC there would be less good guys and a lot more lawsuits for civil rights violations.
Keep your gun in Pennsylvania.
*I can't forget that date. It's what got us cops free passage on the LIRR, and also got us Senator Carolyn McCarthy.
No it wouldn't have. The hijackers were armed with boxcutters, then a legal weapon on airplanes. If they were carrying legal weapons, why did no one else decide to also use legal weapons to defend the plane?
If people were allowed to carry guns, the hijackers would also carry guns and no other person with a gun would dare to attack them. Until 9/11 hijackings were of a hostage nature, not a murder nature.
Chances are much better that the other civilians would have increased the body count by felling their fellow citizens in the confusion. They would have caused alot more harm than good.
An armed police officer might have made a difference - if he/she weren't felled. But it's easy and counterproductive to play Monday Morning quarterback.
This was a real tragedy. I don't see what there is to be gained by dreaming about a Rambo fantasy solving it.
We know which one is more likely - and your scenario isn't. On balance, we're safer without Rambo.
Now tell me how likely it was to be killed on that train?
"On balance, we're safer without Rambo"
On the contrary, being Rambo is probably the last thing someone carrying a concealed wepon has on their mind. The reason you carry a firearm is not to be macho, it's in case some crazy lunatic comes in and is going to kill someone. But, I have to agree that playing MMQ is counterproductive. May those who died rest in peace. And may Ferguson burn in hell.
Since it is almost impossible to get a carry permit for a handgun in NY State, no, we don't know which scenerio is more likely.
Japanese train sets record at 580 kph
It makes me wonder doesn't Metra have some way of enforcing the speed limit on its main lines? On the LIRR I believe the way it works is by a bell sounding when the speed limit has been exceeded and the operator must reduce speed NOW otherwise there will be a full emergency application. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Anyway, both locomotives were damaged, they will b returned to Boise for repair.
I don't know the details, but the speed limit is apparently temporary (track charts a few years old show switch speed to be 25mph). Anyway the only the guy was going to be doing 60mph is if he missed an approach signal, so tests on the approach signal ought to tell us whether he missed it. Recreation at the same time of the day and similar weather would have told us whether he saw a phantom signal or just wasn't paying attention.
It makes me wonder doesn't Metra have some way of enforcing the speed limit on its main lines?
No, except on cab signalled lines. I was told that many lines are still cab signalled from the days when private railroads installed them. In other places they rely on the engineer, but the FRA can show up at any time and point a speed gun at your train. Generally engineers are pretty good about adhereing permanent speed limits, but sometimes work zone limits that are on the track warrant can get missed if the guy is distracted. AEM7
What you posted was what was in the mag, with a picture of one of the units sitting crosswise with its nose somewhat bashed.
Nights (J) will terminate at St George, while SIR will act as a Staten Island shuttle. Some new platforms and fare controls would have to be built or modified, but if this could work, it would be better than the ferry(except it won't be free) and it would give the MTA more $$$ for the SIR (which currently only gets fares from St George, and possibly the Stadium, not sure). Plus they can get rid of many of those SI express buses. Many riders could avoid the long ferry, or avoid having to go into Brooklyn. Only problem will be that the Ferry may be in the way of the SIR/J train extension.
Another alternative would be to hook the SAS up to the SIR
What do you all think?
They're rebuilding the signals at great expense, so it's too late now, but they should have coverted the SIR (and the north shore line) to a BRT-style busway, complete with stations. That could have been profitable, because local buses from elsewhere could have gotten up on it and used it.
Streetcars, maybe?
During the morning rush on trains to St. George, the fare collection would be pay-as-you-leave[local travel], with all passengers paying at St.George. The afternoon rush would have passengers pay fares at St.George, while passengers boarding at other stations would pay-as-you-enter.
The equipment would be a modified, articulated version of the SEPTA N5 car, about 95 feet long. A two-car train would be adequate during rush hours, and require a two-man crew. During non-rush periods, a single operator would be sufficient, in operating the train, and collecting fares.
What would you think about this idea?
I agree that a tunnel should be cut but NOT for trains. My plan was to open a foot tunnel so people can walk/bike across the river from Staten Island to Manhattan instead of waiting for the ferry. Unfortunatly, my foot tunnel didn't win any support on these forums.
and close Atlantic and Nassau Stations and replace with a station In bewtween the former Atlantic and Nassau stations.
(Damn, I CANT seem to get over losing a Ultimate Ride nap to that tuna boi).
hehehehe...
Chuck Greene
Ditto me on the Saturday... Here's hoping we draw the 1 line on SUNday.
1MODVirgin9
I have more, but there's a 8Mb restriction..
Ask me if you have any questions.
Trams of type 100 are the oldest, cca 1962., made in Croatia by Djuro Djakovic. Trams of type 200 are a bit younger (cca 1970.?), made in Croatia also.
Tram types 300 (cca 1985.) and 400 (cca 1978.) are imported from Czech Republic.
The 900's are imported from Mannheim (Germany) - they are secondhand trams :-) (made cca 1964.).
The newest trams are those of "2100" series - 16 of them - serial#s 2101 to 2116. There were made by Koncar (in Croatia) in 2000.
Mnchen's U-Bahn - type A is from 1970's, B a bit younger and C is brand new. Right now all U-Bahn trains in my Mnchen album are type A.
S-Bahn: ET420 old ones, ET423 - brand new ones.
Arti
The other reason why Mnchen's subway is so clean could be that its stations are completely covered by surveillance cameras.
Also, there is U-Bahn-Wache - something like Transit Cops..
And perhaps a different mentality..
Wide-angle photos don't show dirt too well, for one thing.
For another, most other subways carry 1/2 or even 1/10th the passenger load of the MTA. Other systems very likely have the same percentage of slobs but the absolute numbers are so much lower that keeping the infrastructure clean becomes a viable option.
Dave, while I was checking out about this photo I found two errors on the 40/Lowery pages. Images 26160 and 4275 are not at Lowery. They both look to be on the el above Roosevelt Ave. but I am not sure where.
#4275 is actually @ 74th Street.
#26160 is actually @ 90th Street.
And I'm almost 100% sure that the photos that you posted are from 33rd Street.
A technical question: the camera is 3.2 megapixels and comes with a memory card that's 16 MB. Anyone know how many photos it will hold?
Usually with 16 MB memory you will get 8-10 pictures at high resolution, 30 or 40 at lowest resolution
you can always upgrade the memory card to 64 mbs. you could then save hundreds of pictures at low to medium resolution
This Is What I Live For...
I suggest you get a bigger one.
I have an 8MB, 32MB, and 64MB card.
The metric Im using is memory/price.
From the J&R site:
PNY 128MB costs $44.88
PNY 256MB costs $59.88
PNY 512MB costs $109.88
PNY 1G costs $229.88
So clearly $15 to buy you double the memory is worthwhile. After that, the increments vary from slightly less to slightly more than linear. There are other slight variations between brands, but the trend is about the same.
Shop around and see what you can get!
I've selected a camera that I want for Christmas. It's a Sony, and comes with a Memory Stick (16 MB, I think). I already have a 128 MB MS, so I guess I'll be switching sticks when the 16 fills up, or buying another one with some Christmas money I hope to get.
John
Look out Metrocard swipers and trolls, smile. Your picture from my phone may be viewed by anyone in the NYPD.
1. A pancake
or
2. Fried and well done to a crisp from a alien laser beam.
Are you talking about the battery sellers or the Metrocard swipers?
As for commercial activity, why not a permit issued by NYCT allowing them to do that? Offer a month-to month fee of, say $100 and allow them to hawk whetever they want (expcept Metrocards, of course). Restrict the permit to non-rush hour travel and make other restrictions as well. And why are people buying candies from kids on trains for $1 when a station newsstand sells the same candies for a quarter less? Or is it people are buying into their pleas to raise money for their "basketball uniforms"?
I'd be more concerned for people leaning over the edge (another violation of the law; entering any part on their body onto tracks and roadbeds), getting hit by a train and the T/O and C/R do the cup thing and the T/O will the tramuatized (possibly for the rest of his life) for seeing up close the face smacking, than kids selling candy.
Execerpted from NYCRR Title 21 Chapter XXI Section 1050.6(c):
"The following non-transit uses are authorized and permitted by the Authority...: public speaking... Permitted non-transit uses may be conducted in the transit system except when on or within: a subway car..."
Preaching on a subway car is illegal, too.
As for commercial activity, why not a permit issued by NYCT allowing them to do that?
Because commercial activity interferes with transit operations and competes with newsstands that are paying for platform space. It also makes the subway less desirable to ride. If someone wants batteries, they can buy them at the newsstand or at a bodega next to their station; no one needs them so desperately that they want to be disturbed by someone on the train hawking cheap knockoffs that won't last five minutes.
...allow them to hawk whetever they want (expcept Metrocards, of course).
Why not Metrocards? Newsstands sell Metrocards.
Restrict the permit to non-rush hour travel and make other restrictions as well.
Trains can get just as crowded during off-peak hours, especially when there are massive G.O.s. Picture an A train at Jay St on a leisurely Sunday afternoon, where a few thousand people have just transferred from crowded shuttle buses to a train. Now add to the picture someone squeezing through the masses with a little cart, shouting "battery, battery, eight for a dollar..."
If NYCT is unwilling to grant such a permit, then perhaps NYCT has reasons to prohibit selling batteries on trains.
Oh, and there's nothing illegal about sleeping on the train: "No person on or in any facility or conveyance shall: ... Sleep or doze where such activity may be hazardous to such person or to others or may interfere with the operation of the Authoritys transit system or the comfort of its passengers."
i.e., snoring is illegal.
I'm sure the NYPD would be very interested to know that someone is taking camera-phone "spy" pictures in the subway.
You're in Manhattan - who needs a mall??
The Manhattan mall was never the same when Sterns closed its doors. That Sterns had very good clothing for men. Almost as good as Macys.
Want some adventure? Take the mainline #5 to Gun Hill and change for the Bx28 bus in front of the station. This will take you to Bay Plaza shopping center but you might be better off with the < 6 > to Pelham Bay (last stop) and catch the Bx12 bus to "Bay Plaza" it runs through the parking lot.
Newkirk Plaza. :)
If you really want a trip (Long Island & Westchester)...
Broadway Mall: LIRR to Hicksville*
Galleria: MNRR Harlem Line to White Plains*
Roosevelt Field: F to 179 St, then N22, N22A, or N24; LIRR to Mineola, then N15, N22, N24, N78, N79;
The Source (Westbury): Same as Roosevelt Field, but N78 or N79 only
* At most, a 10-minute walk from this station.
For Cross Country Mall in Yonkers, take the #4 train to Bedford Park Blvd and change for the Bee-Line #20 bus which stops in front of the west side of the mall. You can also stay on the #20 to White Plains and the Galleria Mall. But if you want to go to White Plains, the fastest way is the Bee-Line #40 bus from East 241st (#2 line subway station, last stop) but only in the PM rush, 5:20, to 6:50 every 30 minutes but it's worth the fast ride. The fare is $1.75 and cash is only accepted on Bee-Line buses.
What??? That's good if you have three hours to spend each way!!! The Broadway Mall is less than a half mile from Hicksville Station which is about a 45-50 minute ride from either Penn or Flatbush or about a half hour from Jamaica. And if you don't get an M-7 or a diesel you will have the best railfan window ride in the Metropolitan area, the Main Line stretch from Floral Park to Hicksville!!
But why would a male want to go to a shopping mall anyway. Shopping is for women and it's boring as hell. To really have a great day tomorrow take the "A" to Aqueduct.
Hey, hey! Don't be sexist! My boy is ALWAYS bugging me to go to malls! His priorities seem to be, in order, stores selling video games; the food court; stalls selling Pokemon and Yu-gi-oh cards; glass elevators if available.
Wait till your sons are teenagers. Malls are major hangouts for teens of all sexes wishing to meet the opposite, especially in very hot and cold weather.
I will agree that shopping is boring- and frustrating if nothing fits you. Food court prices are often exorbitant and the portions chintzy. Every mall has a chain bookstore, but it's usually much smaller and offering less variety than a free standing Barnes & Nobles or Borders- not to mention no seating!
With the exception of the Broadway Mall, all Long Island malls are very inconvenient from the LIRR- from which you can see Green Acres and Sunrise. Both are very long walks from their nearest respective stations. Roosevelt has decent connecting bus service, although it's sometimes faster to WALK a mile from Mineola or Carle Place, given the horrible traffic congestion buses must navigate to get to it.
South Shore and Smith Haven can only be reached by Suffolk bus, which means you're out of luck on a Sunday. Walt Whitman (usually referred to conversationally as 'the 110 Mall') barely QUALIFIES in my mind as a mall.
White Plains has two malls, but the one closer to MN seems to have fallen on hard times, with lots of vacant storefronts. There's supposed to be a much nicer one about six blocks further away. Stamford Centre is about six blocks from MN, and is far nicer- despite the lack of a food court. Problem is, the only pedestrian access is down a trucking driveway to Filene's Basement's basement.
Newport is the only mall in Jersey I know of that has any rail connection. It requires a very serpentine walk around or through office buildings from PATH to a side entrance of Macy's. But its food court and selection of stores is very good. And it provides a convenient stopover while connecting between PATH and HBLR.
Queens Center, which has been under renovation for its entire 30 years, badly needs a direct entrance to the subway. Now you have to cross 59th Avenue, which is no safer since having been converted to one-way. Herald Center does connect to the subway and PATH, but once you see past the apparent size of it you realize how limited it is.
Kings Plaza is rather limited (no food court) and despite being far from the subway, has good bus connections. Staten Island Mall is the nicest I've seen within city limits, but it's only accessible by two bus routes from the ferry (a very long ride), one route to Bay Ridge (an EXTREMELY long ride) or two routes from SIR (a short ride), which operates on a half-hour headway off peak.
And despite what you may read or hear, Bay Plaza is NOT A MALL! It's a shopping center with a very large parking lot. There are a few smaller centers adjacent to it with separate lots- and security ready with tow trucks to nail anyone who tries to park in one lot and walk to a store in another. A similar 'arrangement' exists amongst all the commercial development along Old Country Road between Roosevelt and the Source.
Cross County isn't a mall either, at least in the strict sense of the word. It's laid out like one, with many pedestrian walkways between the stores. But it's not enclosed from the elements.
The best transit-mall connection I've ever seen in the USA is Philly's Market East Galleria, where you can get the MFL, PATCO and all SEPTA commuter rail lines right in the basement. Last spring, on a DC vacation, we were able to walk from the Blue & Yellow lines directly into the Pentagon Centre Mall.
And if you've been in Toronto or Montreal, blocks and blocks of underground malls connect multiple stations in their subway systems.
I've advised both my dependents that we're steering clear of malls until MLK Day.
Called The Westchester, and located on the site of the old NYW&B terminal.
Mazza Gallery--Friendship Hts Station(Red), Crystal City Underground--Crystal City Station(Blue/Yellow), Fashion Ctr--Pentagon City Station(Blue/Yellow), The Old Post Office--Federal Triangle Station(Orange/Blue), Prince George's Plaza(Green), Wheaton Plaza--Wheaton Station(Red), The Hecht Co--Metro Ctr Station(Red,Blue,Orange), Union Station(Red), Ballston Common--Ballston Station(Orange), Congressional Plaza--Twinbrook Station(Red), Waterside Mall--Waterfront(Green).
I didn't choose shopping centers/malls that required a long walk or bus ride to get to them---i.e. White Flint Mall or Springfield Mall.
Mark
Mazza Gallery--Friendship Hts Station(Red),
Crystal City Underground--Crystal City Station(Blue/Yellow),
Fashion Ctr--Pentagon City Station(Blue/Yellow),
The Old Post Office--Federal Triangle Station(Orange/Blue),
Prince George's Plaza(Green),
Wheaton Plaza--Wheaton Station(Red),
The Hecht Co--Metro Ctr Station(Red,Blue,Orange),
Union Station(Red),
Ballston Common--Ballston Station(Orange),
Congressional Plaza--Twinbrook Station(Red),
Waterside Mall--Waterfront(Green).
I didn't choose shopping centers/malls that required a long walk or bus ride to get to them---i.e. White Flint Mall or Springfield Mall.
My criteria, direct access from station to Mall or shopping center without having to see the light of day. On WMATA you would have to throw out all but three that you list above and add one. I would also throw out The Hecht Company at Metro Center because its a single retailer with direct access.
Mazza Gallery: Friendship Heights (A08) Red line A Route,
Chevy Chase Pavilion: Friendship Heights (A08) Red line A Route,
Union Station (B03) Red line A route,
Crystal City Underground: Crystal City (C09) Blue Yellow lines.
As to the one you forgot by your criteria,
Chevy Chase Pavilion: Friendship Heights (A08) Red line A Route,
The Hecht Company: Friendship Heights (A08) Red line A Route,
The block formally occupied by Woodward And Lothrops north building, I think its Merrott Hotel now: Metro Center (A01, C01) Red, Blue, Orange lines.
The Shops At Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport: National Airport (C10) Blue, Yellow lines
John
Fashion Centre at Pentagon City (C09) also has direct access into the station. I didn't know about the others at Friendship Heights.
Thanks,
mark
I need to get out more often.
Speaking of that, I plan to do a road trip to Washington on Saturday 10 06 2003 when I pickup commuter tickets for the Bay Bridge. I will shoot pictures of the construction on the G Route Blue line extension and the New York Avenue station. Will post link to images in new thread
John
Thanks,
Mark
p.s.---Florida's looking real good right now
Thank you no, I am quite happy right here.
John
Fulton Mall - Downtown Brooklyn
A,C,G to Hoyt-Schermerhorn
2,3,4,5,M,N,R,W to Court St-Boro Hall
M,N,Q,R To DeKalb Avenue (Juniors Cheesecake This Stop)
2,3 To Hoyt Street
2,3,4,5 To Nevins St
Kings Plaza (Flatbush Ave/Ave U) 2 to Brooklyn College-Flatbush Ave (station from Lucy and the Loving Cup Episode) then change to B41 or Q 35 Buses or A To Broad Channel then S to Beach 116th St-Rockaway Park then Q35 Bus
Both cover the same basic facts, but the "juicy" part is the conflict between Bob Diamond and a former subordinate Arthur Melnick. Diamond is head of the Brooklyn Historic Railway Association (BHRA) with long standing plans to run a line from Red Hook into downtown Brooklyn. Arthur Melnick leads the Brooklyn City Streetcar Company, Inc (BCSC) and has proposed the park line, with parts overlapping BHRA's plan, esp. on Atlantic Ave and to Borough Hall. The two seem to dislike each other greatly, which is probably not good news for anyone wanting to see trolleys again in Brooklyn.
Bob Diamond's trolleys are at the Brooklyn Navy Yard, where he is behind in the rent.
I'd include the articles but I don't know of any website.
The Park Slope Paper, 12/1/03
Park Slppe Courier, 12/1/03
The picture opportunities by the Brooklyn & Manhattan bridges are beyond comparison for tourists and residents alike (reminds me of Seattle's waterfront trolley) The downtown Brooklyn folks were looking for a way to get people from the subways to the park without overwhelming Brooklyn Heights streets - well, this is it!
1. Red Hook-Atlantic Av-Borough Hall
2. This one could either be a one way service along the waterfront or down Jay Street or Adams Street. Or it could be a loop service. I think a loop service would be best b/c it would serve more areas, but would involve more construction.
Fulton Ferry Landing-Atlantic Av-Borough Hall-DUMBO-Fulton Ferry Landing
Would a loop service in one direction work, or would it be better in 2 directions?
I think the park trolley would be the ideal start and the Red Hook waterfront could be one of the added destinations, as well as Diamond's goal of reaching Grand Army Plaza.
Maybe in my lifetime....
What ya think bout that?
Start from Red Hook, along the waterfront to Atlantic, then down the Atlantic Ave TUNNEL to exit at Boerum Pl, then north past the Transit Museum & Borough Hall, and eventually east towards Vanderbilt Ave, then to GAP. All of this predated the waterfront park idea, and (unfortunately) would be very expensive and financially unsound without heavy sponsorship/subsidies, something Bob Diamond could never organize.
Who'll put streetcars inside park?
Frank Hicks
Frank Hicks
I think it's sad that none of them folks can or want to work together. it's pretty selfish, actually...
He's put his heart into his trolley line, but after 10 years he doesn't have the financing in place that would make it viable. Every other non-profit knows how important fund raising is.
I wish the two would just find a way to work together and use each other's strengths - AM for organizing, Bob D. for the "vision thing". You can still work together and hate each other right? Just like a marriage!
:0)
Or does the original poster mean public employees instead of civil employees?
Michael
Washington, DC
Conversely, we still have only a few Dual Modes operating to Penn, after what? two years? This doesn't bode well for them.
An interesting question comes to mind: At different times of the day, which would be quicker to get from Penn Station to Woodside, the 1/2/3/9 to the 7, or the next LIRR train out of NYP?
Consider the 5:44 Port Jeff to Penn. It gets in at 7:20. Considering all of the reverse flow and single track issues, the fastest you could get it out to Port Jeff for another rush hour trip inbound would be for probably a 9:00 AM departure -- which would arrive around 10:30 -- way too late for most commuters. So for every two (or really every three -- if you consider reserves and write-offs) you can get one rush hour trip. (On occasion, the DM's have been sent out to Freeport to cover the late morning Freeport to Penn express trips when that equiptment is unavailable).
They've got 4 rush hour Dual modes now. I don't think you'll ever see more than one or two above that. Plus, you'd have to take away an M1/3/7 slot into Penn to fit it in.
I don't understand why there isn't yet off-peak and weekend DM service (other than some holiday specials). My best guess is that it's a reliablity issue.
CG
Why? Why not one locomotive and a control cab, as on the straight diesels?
I have never seen more than one Loco on a Metro North Train, and it is always on the North End, with a Cab Car on the South!
Do they come in with two motors, or do sme trains have only one?
Elias
Arriving from the east on Track 20, M-7's. Doors closed and when leaving, glanced over to Track 16 and a Port Washington train of M-7's were taking on passengers.
Pull into Jamaica on Track 7 and arriving on Track 6 for the connection was a Far Rockaway train of..........M-7's !!
Since I was reading the paper, I didn't notice any trains heading into NYP, but only noticed one set of M-1/3's. This was kind of unusual, but a harbinger of what's to come when the M-1's ranks will be thinned as M-7's become the dominant rolling stock.
Also, I spoke with my LIRR friend who tells me the delivery of M-7's will slow down a bit in January as Metro North's M-7's are due for delivery. I asked if the Metro North's M-7's will differ from the LIRR's. He said there will be some things that will differ. ASC is of them.
Bill "Newkirk"
Chock Full O' Nuts
While I was at Brighton Beach, I noticed some strange train movements. There was a parked Q express on the N/B local track the entire time. At one point an out of service Q local coming from Sheepshead Bay came in on the N/B express track and stayed there for a while. Next train in from Sheepshead Bay was a Q express which came in on the S/B local track. Finally, another Q express from Sheepshead Bay came in on the S/B express track. That train contained my sought after poster. It being pretty cold, I returned on this express to Sheepshead Bay and decided to let them worry about what they were doing.
do they open sundays??
With this being the holiday season, you better believe it. Also check out the holiday model train display.
Bill "Newkirk"
how much is the price this time??
Memoirs of paying $5 per numberplate in the year 2000.
Beat you to the punch? Just hope we don't beat and punch you.
(^_^)
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/newyork/nyc-mta1203,0,7313581.story?coll=ny-nynews-headlines
$5-6 per ride mabee more.
If the MTA nyc transit was a privatly run self funding corporation, they would have moved decades ago to upgrade their technology infrastucture to reduce labor costs, run shorter trains when passenger loads warrented etc.
No tooken booths at 95% of the stations. OPTO and ZPTO on some lines. The subway real estate and retail opurtunities would be maximized.
Today's MTA is ineffecient operation using 50 year old technology.
They have tried to reduce some waste such as tooken booths at many stations. Unfortunitly the TWU spread a fear compaign. As I predicted crime has not increased at automated fare controls. The only improvement would to be to install IP based digital camera's linked to central control center to deter swipe sellers. If anyone is interested the swipe seller could not sell enough swiped to make the booth closing unprofitable
If the MTA were a privately held company, they would have cut back weekend service and made Metro North nothing more than a commuter line.
Which is fine, except that a year ago he claimed that the MTA was rolling in money, and did not require the fare increase we already have.
His is right the second time. The MTA (and the City of New York and other agencies) covered over its true financial position until Pataki and the state legislature were re-elected. The idea that the fare increase was not required was nothing but political pandering.
I have a question to ask you and the rest of subtalk. Not to be a ass or anything but, do you think it was political pandering when the MTA decided to keep its finances secluded until Paturkey and the rest of the SOB's in legislation was elected?
What I feel is that they could of came foward with the true financial problems beforehand, and then had more time to fix the budget problem so we wouldn't have to hear this.
Let's discuss citywide service cuts...then people will finally give them the money they need.
We need to begin to adress productivity enhancements and better deployment of resorces. full length trains that are half empty and come so infrequently that anyone who can afford it takes a cab is rediculous.
For all those who say breaking apart 4 car(linked bar) units and putting them back together can't be done should run the number on how much money could be saved and how service could be improved overnight
I think this budget thing is sort of the cornerstone for the deffered maintenance era comeback.
Might as well put off fare increases, borrow money, defer maintenance, and let the system go to hell -- then put through a massive fare increase that is far higher than it would otherwise have had to be. After all, people will make as much noise about a five percent increase as about a 33 percent, 50 percent, or 100 percent increase, the historically typical amounts.
However, based on the opinions of everyone, rather than those who make the most noise, that is a mistake. They should have gradually raised the fare, and kept taxes a little higher, in the boom. We'd have less debt and a less underfunded pension.
I think Subtalk should regard these words as whats to come in the next 10 years.
::Visions a R62/A covered in graffiti::
People have to stand up and object.
No they should have gradually upgraded the system over the past 50 year to make it more effecient and more economical to operate. The system currently operate like it has all the money in the world to spend.
5 steps for the MTA to get it's finaces in order
I) Focus it's capitol plan on projects that finace themselves through reduced operating expences.
EX: 1) platform cameras and subway car pgrades to support in cab flat panel monitors to reduce train crews from two to one.
2) upgrading signaling system to support the above
3) greater use of hybrid buses and articulated buses
4) Upgrading stations in manhattan to ADA standards and eliminating costly duplicate bus routes
5) slow the pace of cosmetic station rehabilitation and focus on bring stations into a good state of functional repair
6) deploy technology to reduce the myrad of layers of usesless outdated management.
- automated bus monitoring and train montoring. updated business practices, eCRM software etc
II. run the apropiate level of service for the aproiate time of day.
- Shorter trains at night and on weekends on some lines with one man crews
- Part the artics in the garage at night and run the most effecient bus.
III. Work to eliminate terrible union work rules such as the one that prohibits bus driver from picking up buses at depots other then their home depot even for voluntary overtime shifts(subway shuttles). Driving buses in from other bouroughs when the local depot has dozens of buses sitting around is a crime.
IV. reduce unneeded staf such as most station agents, ride checkers etc as their jobs are obsolete if the proper technology upgrades are in place
Promote greater retail sales and marketing withing the subway.
Contract out the official soda, chips and other products sold in the subway. Lease out newsstands to one national vendor(7-11, hudson news etc) Ever Mcdonalds you go to sells only coke. WHY? coke pays mcdonalds for the exclusivity deal.
Subway riders are very valuable to marketers. MAke the most of this non fare revenue
II.
1. The way the contract is designed (and yes, it's a hodgepodge, but no, it's not likely to change because it has to be agreed to by BOTH parties, one of which has no reason to want to change it), OPTO doesn't save very much money. Moreover, cutting and adding cars to train consists, while it might save some money on wear-and-tear and inspections, costs money in "switching" crews who have to add/remove the cars. NYCT has found it's just not worth it.
2. This is really a BusTalk issue, but I'll say that if a depot is served entirely by articulated buses during the day (a situation that hasn't happened yet, but it might somewhere along the line) it doesn't make sense to keep a second fleet of standard-size buses (with different parts requirements) around to run at night. Besides, there aren't very many buses running overnight, so there isn't much money to be saved there anyway.
III.
I see the point, but again, these are changes that have to be proposed by management (because there's no way the Union would) and agreed to by the Union. Does anyone here REALLY see that happening?
IV.
1. Automatic passenger counters are available. I've yet to hear of one that works well enough to use, and I don't know how well they work as collectors of running time data, which is also a necessary function that Traffic Checkers perform. As for Station Agents, NYCT has begun reducing their numbers.
2. The only problems I can see involve clutter and litter. Those are reasons behind the removal of many newsstands and other concessions during the 1980s and the subsequent redesign of many newsstands and concessions.
3. Why not? I wonder what MTA Real Estate & Concessions would have to say about this idea.
David
There have been substantial productivity gains (as an economist, not a politician, would define them -- ie. not wage and benefit cuts) in some areas, such as Car Equipment and MOW. These departments have reduced their employment by close to 1.5 percent per year compounded over the period. And they aren't doing the same work as in 1986, they are doing MORE work, based on MDBF, track condition, etc. Thus, their productivity gains are much higher than that.
Other departments have done less well in reducing staff, and overall NYCT employment is projected to be at about the same level in 2007 as in 1986. Of course, the number of bus trips and train trips is probably much higher, and this would have to be adjusted for.
When you are talking about front line personnel, it is hard to distinguish a productivity gain from a service increase or reduction. Station agents in the booths don't have to sell as many rides as they used to, thanks to the machines. Is that a productivity gain to increased quality, because the agents are now free to give more customer service and security? Or a wasted investment, because they are sitting there with nothing to do? Same thing with conductors. If both quality and cost go down, it isn't a productivity gain. You need the SAME work with less people, or MORE work with the same people. Note the part time booth closing issue for the public's perception. I don't agree with it, but there it is.
True, but it is easier in transit than in some service industries. You have the number of trains or buses in service, their reliability, etc.
"3. See 1. and 2., though there isn't enough experience yet with hybrid buses to determine whether they'll save money"
That is not true. The MTA's own pilot study using ORION VI showed in overall reduction of cost of operation and maintance. The study went on to say that improvements in staff training and a mass produced vs prototype product should yeild a further reduction in costs.
An excerpt from the article that was online back in august in an industry trade jurnal but unfortunitly i do not have the URL. The article title was "lessons learned NYCT hybrid electric fleet"
"Dana Lowell is the assistant chief maintenance officer, research and development, at New York City Transit. He recently spoke at APTA's Bus and Paratransit conference, detailing the status and testing results of a fleet of hybrid diesel-electric buses currently in operation.
Fuel economy
One of the reasons NYCT wanted to test the hybrids is that they offer both emissions reductions and fuel economy, a combination not available with CNG buses. The hybrid buses averaged 2.65 mpg, which was 10 percent higher than the test group of diesel buses, though the results for the hybrids showed significant seasonal shifts in fuel economy. During the summer months, fuel economy varied only slightly to comparable diesels, but fuel economy in the winter was 16 percent higher for the hybrid buses.
The results were attributed to two factors. First being the air conditioning, which can take between 15 and 20 percent of the total energy used on the bus in the summertime.
Second was the possible thermal limitations of the batteries. The Orion buses use regenerative braking, which captures the bus' own kinetic energy to help power the batteries. However, as the batteries heat up, power is not as easily distributed to and from the batteries. Also, BAE Systems, which designed the HybriDrive system used in the buses, limited how much energy could be put back into the batteries as they heated up to help the system recover and cool the batteries. BAE has addressed this situation with the latest Orion VII hybrid design, and early testing by NYCT has already shown a better fuel economy is being achieved, though some seasonal performance differences, at least to a lesser degree, have not yet been ruled out.
During the evaluation period, the price of NYCT's low-sulfur diesel fuel averaged $1.03 per gallon. The Orion V diesel buses had a fuel cost of $0.474 per mile and the NovaBUS RTS diesel buses averaged $0.426 per mile. The older hybrid-electric group averaged $0.390 per mile, while the newer group averaged $0.387.
Maintenance and availability
Maintenance costs for the hybrids were tested against the diesel group of NovaBUS vehicles from the same Manhattanville depot and recorded higher maintenance costs and lower system availability overall. Two main factors were associated with this.
First, because the buses were a pre-production fleet, there was some trouble in the beginning with documenting and identifying parts. Once the faulty part was identified, there was no spare parts inventory, so repairs were delayed as parts were sent in from the manufacturer.
NYCT has also made an increasing effort to train its mechanics and getting them more involved. Of the 246 buses at the Manhattanville depot, 236 were manufactured by NovaBUS, which caused an unfamiliarity in the system among the mechanics on the Orion hybrids and increased the labor hours spent troubleshooting problems.
Both the newness of the technology and the learning curve of the mechanics resulted in lower reliability and availability of the buses. NYCT has a standard availability of its fleet of 85 percent with a 15 percent spare factor. At times the hybrids approached that level, but did not match the reliability of the diesels. However, based on the increasing experience of the mechanics with the system and Orion's improvements in the next generation Orion VII, there is increasing confidence at NYCT that the hybrids will approach that of the diesel buses."
At night and on weekends NYC should attempt to use these buses as much as possible to reduce operating costs. This of course would mean the end to a line belongs to one depot and a switch to the philosophy.
At the moment (December 6, 2003), NYCT has ELEVEN hybrid buses. There is an order for well over a hundred more hybrid buses but NONE are in yet (Orion hasn't finished delivering the Orion VII CNGs). According to the article, maintenance costs on the test buses were HIGHER than on the standard RTS buses and bus availability was LOWER on the test buses. The only savings was in fuel. Is the savings in fuel going to outweigh the additional maintenance cost? Maybe with a larger order and greater familiarity with the equipment the maintenance cost will go down as NYCT predicts, but all of this remains to be seen. (And I'm a fan of hybrid technology -- it isn't that I'm a Luddite.)
Please tell me how eleven buses are supposed to cover all overnight service that NYCT operates, even allowing for what I said in my previous posting about there not being much service overnight. Besides, allowing any bus to operate on any route on the weekends would cost more money, as someone (whether a Shifter, a Maintainer, or the Operator assigned to a given run) has to move the bus between the "foreign" depot and the route, which would usually be a longer distance than between the "home" depot and the route. For instance, on the B3 the route begins right outside Ulmer Park Depot, and that's where the route is assigned -- running the route out of, say, Fresh Pond Depot, because (say) that's where the hybrid buses are, would cost well over an hour of additional vehicle time in each direction to get the bus to and from Fresh Pond, plus whatever the pay hours end up costing (could be an hour plus, could be less, could be more, depending on the individual run).
David
"Bus tracking is something NYCT's extremely interested in, but the last contract didn't work out (the system would spot buses in the East River). "
The MTA was ahead of the curve of what the technology could do in the early 1990'. Recent improvements in the last 10 years have overcome many of the problems and at a much lower cost. Wireless technologies have come a long way. The previous technology relied on GPS satalites only. New technologies can combine multiple standard protocals to better track buses. technologies such as GPS, 802.11 b, g, 3 g wireless technologies can be seemlessly used to track, monitor and dispatch buses.
"II.
OPTO doesn't save very much money. Moreover, cutting and adding cars to train consists, while it might save some money on wear-and-tear and inspections, costs money in "switching" crews who have to add/remove the cars. NYCT has found it's just not worth it"
A penny saved is a penny earned. Improved proccesses can overcome most of these hurdles. Trains that are linked up in 4 and 5 car units could be designed to separate in terminal with a series of steps performed by the train crew. The two half length trains could not depart from tje terminal with a new crew, one person on each train.
In the past the cars were all singles and the proceeses used made OPTO not worth it.
"This is really a BusTalk issue, but I'll say that if a depot is served entirely by articulated buses during the day (a situation that hasn't happened yet, but it might somewhere along the line) it doesn't make sense to keep a second fleet of standard-size buses (with different parts requirements) around to run at night. Besides, there aren't very many buses running overnight, so there isn't much money to be saved there anyway"
Go stand on the corner of 23rd st at 3 am. You will see articulated buses running empty back and forth. The depots these buses come out of have plenty of 40ft buses sitting idle at that time of night. In a system the size of NYCT we are taliking millions of dollars in savings. The 40ft buses get better gas millage
"1. Automatic passenger counters are available. I've yet to hear of one that works well enough to use, and I don't know how well they work as collectors of running time data, which is also a necessary function that Traffic Checkers perform. As for Station Agents, NYCT has begun reducing their numbers."
Running times on subways would be handles by the upgraded signaling system and CBTC. We all know the timetables for it's deployment
On the bus side, the bus monitoring and dispatching system would handle runing time issues
As for passenger counting. Traffic checkers are not very accurate for this. For one in order to have very accuare data you need to have a large sample of days and times then the current system allows. Monhts not weeks of data are needed
Metrocard data if combined and analysted with load sensors on buses and trains would give you a more accurate picture of ridership levels over the course of the year. All the new buses have computer subsystems that are capable of collecting such data plus the new rail cars have them as well.
"
2. The only problems I can see involve clutter and litter. Those are reasons behind the removal of many newsstands and other concessions during the 1980s and the subsequent redesign of many newsstands and concessions.
3. Why not? I wonder what MTA Real Estate & Concessions would have to say about this idea.
David"
Of course many stations with tight platforms and fare controls can not support retail. Many can. The MTA should go one step further and concider how they can incorportate more retail when they are embarking on a station renovation. Spaces could be carved out for vending and ATM machines on platforms along the broadway line for instance
As the MTA shuts down many tooken booths space becomes available at many fare controls. Litter is definitly an issues but people are bringing food and beverages aboard trains anyway from the outside and illegal vendors are selling on platforms especially in the summer time. A unitified contract would bring in alot more money then the small vendors.
When all of the systems required to support automatic passenger counting and running time tracking are in place, I'm all for testing to see whether Traffic Checkers can be replaced. It's a years-long process, though, that could be speeded only so much if at all (there's a finite pile of money and besides there are just so many parts of the transit system that can be worked on at the same time without affecting rush hour service).
I think the concession ideas have merit, and I encourage "voiceofreason" to take them up with the MTA.
David
That's happening already. Watch what's going to happen at Roosevelt/74th.
No, 100th Street Depot (M101/M102/M103) is ALL articulated. It has no standard buses, and having a few on hand just for overnight service (which has to stay "out there" for the morning rush anyway) would be a complete waste.
The 2 and 4 car trains of the 70's was due to defered maintance.
Most A division train sets are linked in 5 car sets and many b division trains are linked in 4 car sets
Running the apropiate level of service when needed saves money and allows that money to be spent on other area's.
The MTA's current policies drive up operating costs which comes out of our pocket's in terms of fares and tax dollars. The straphanges only platform is to reduce the fare and raise state funding
What is state funding? out tax dolars.
The current 5 year capitol plan puts too much money into cosmetic improvements and not enough money into functional improvements that will reduce the cost of operating the system. You would not borrow money over your head to put down marble floors in you house, but you would to fix a leaking roof or to add another apartment to rent
What do you propose?
Running half-length trains at double the frequency will require twice the number of crew. Crew are extremely expensive--there's no cost savings to be had here.
In addtion to saving money the improved service would attract more riders.
Why? Many people avoid the subways at nigh and on weekend due to the long wait times and the inconvient transfers. Many friends of mine who live in manhattan take the subways all over the place during the week all day but cab it on the weekends due to the long waits.
Most lines even the broadway local and express could use 4 car more frequent service for most parts of the day on the weekend.
One 11 car train under OPTO: one person.
Two 5 car trains running under OPTO: two people.
2 > 1.
In order to slightly improve the MTA's financial image:
1. Buy fewer cars. The MTA seems to be buying hundreds of new cars, spending billions of dollars on rail cars when the need to replace older fleets is questionable. Take this new R160 order. I hear that it would replace everything that still doesn't have a doorbell on the B division, and the R44's. I say that the R32's are in better shape than any of the other cars built between 1964 and 1974, so they should be around until at least the mid-2020's, and leave them on the lines they're running on, too. Don't send them to an "Old car dumping ground," which, with the exception of the R143's, is what the BMT Eastern Division has been for the past few decades, it also includes any line that runs an 8-car train. I'm not completely anti-new. I'm not saying that New York City doesn't need new cars, I'm just saying that NYC doesn't need so many new cars.
This should save them hundreds of millions of dollars.
Then, I don't know how much money is wasted on underworked, overpaid "executives," but I think a few "higher-ups" should get pay cuts. They can complain until the cows come home, but who's more important, the average rider, or some big fat cat who wipes his you-know-what with those new $20 bills?
Just my 2.
Cutting 100 managers making $100,000 a year saves only $10 million a year, though, a drop in the bucket. I support doing something like that, but realize that the impact is minimal.
Deferring the R160 order might make sense. Write MTA and tell 'em.
Ron, this is your non-expert opinion at work again. Can you say Federal Dollars?
AEM7
Yeah, but then the rank and file stopped showing up to work, or showing up sober, and service collapsed. So they had to hire all these superviors to look over their shoulders.
In the private sector, they eliminated layers of management by making line workers responsible for making sure their own work gets done. If it doesn't, the workers are fired. This led to a huge reduction in middle management in the 1980s and early 1990s. Could it work here? Let's just say it would require a culture change.
The way this was implimented was that the business began to have a better idea of what was going on through use of technology tools that allowed upper layers of management to better assess who is doing his job and who is not.
Up and down the line the MTA needs to impliment such systems at every level not just on the operations side
In any case, why have their been no arrests of these vandals? A few kids with their names and faces in the newspaper would go a very long way. I hope we are not going back to the '80's when nobody gave a crap.
Bill "Newkirk"
>:(
P.S.: I just corrected the title spelling.
You can spread a strawberry glaze on the end of a flashlight or baton...
Landing men on the moon and replacing eyeglasses with laser surgery are solutions to technical problems. Vandalism of public property, and the lack of civic pride that helps it to flourish, are problems of law enforcement, and, ultimately, of human evil and sinfulness, and are much more difficult to solve.
I speak with experience. I am undergoing chemotherapy for cancer in the lymph nodes now. Gotta be careful about being in public!!!
Apparently you should spend more time wondering that. We have far fewer diseases now that any time in history and far less shit in the street.
Urine is normally sterile, and does not carry these things, and most of these things cannot survive very long in an open environment.
OK so it grosses you out, big deal.
No there are no security cameras in all of the corners. Given some of the creatures that I have seen in the subways, they would probably not know the difference if they pissed their pants.
As long as the subway is going to be a safe (and somewhat warm) haven for the homeless, they will have to do their deeds where ever they might.
Elias
This page has the chemistry as well as some fascinating history. I would recommend the whole site for interesting reading.
.....
Well, actually, the extreme ends of EVERY platform, including elevated ones, appear to be "watering holes", or pits are more like it.
Some people don't have a pot to pee in.
When I worked for the Franciscians at 31st Street as the building supt. (my last job in NYC before moving to North Dakota) the Aluminium doors to the lower church were being rotted out by urine, probably from people attracted to the bread line.
I got an estimate for replacing the four doors with staineless steel doors, the price came in at $9,000 the same abount that my dad spent for his first house on Long Island in 1950. This does not look like a big figure now, but it was big enough back in 1982.
Elias
For example, in the northeast Amtrak used trains from NJTransit, MARC, and SEPTA.
They have nothing but Bombardier multi-level ("Lozenge" or "Sausage") cars. No single-level equipment.
Horizon cars are single-level Bombardier-built coaches, smooth sides, vestibules at both ends. Their design can be ultimately traced back to Pullman-Standard equipment built for the LIRR in 1953, 1955, 1956 -- believe it or not. Bombardier bought the designs from P-S years ago.
The Amtrak Horizon cars are numbered in the 50000 series. They are similar to much of the loco-hauled commuter equipment on NJ Transit, Boston's MBTA, and Montreal's AMT.
Some of the Horizon cars were also used as extra/backup trains on the Pacific Surfliner route during the holiday weekend...with P32-8BWH's (normally used as yard switchers in LA) for motive power!!!!!
October 27th, 2004
First Subway Ride Reenactment
Recreation of the first ride on the NYC Subway system from City Hall Station in Lower Manhattan by Mayor McClellan and other New York notables. Distinguished guests would include Governor Pataki and Mayor Bloomberg.
Historic Fleet/Nostalgia Train Excursions
Plans to run the historic fleet throughout four boroughs will showcase examples of transit equipment from each major production era in the last century on October 27.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
I don't know at what point the "no wooden cars in subway passenger service, ever" rule was adopted.
#3 West End Jeff
The re-creation of the opening day ceremony will be by invitation only.
Disappointing, yes but unfortunately a necessity.
Its a non-thinking mindset, starting with the bunker mentality of Giuliani that has propagated such myths.
Trains pass through the station every day. A small device attached, say, under a seat, or in between cars (yes, tell me that TOs and CRs are going to systematically inspect every car, with eagle eyes looking for an exta lump when they have 90 seconds to clear the station is going to happen) could cause a lot of mayhem.
In the war on terror, the terrorists win. We let em every time.
Wild horses couldn't drag me away
Wild, wild horses we'll ride them someday.
You don't know the half of it. It would be VERY hard to get R-36WF cars to the Market-Frankford El. And then good luck trying to run them there with the proprietary 3rd rail. :)
That type of third rail is called Wilgis-Sprague Third Rail. Originally developed for the New York Central electrification of 1906,
it was used on the orginal Market Elevated in Philadelphia, also of 1906 vintage.
It's also used on the Docklands light rail in London. Why, I don't know.
It's advantages are that since the shoe rides on the bottom of the rail, not the top, snow and ice are not as big a problem as with regular third rail.
This sounds terrific, but how are they going to do it? Wouldn't these trains run slower, therefore slowing the regular trains down? Also, I wonder what kind of security would be on the train, God forbid vandals try to strike nostalgic cars. -Nick
David
Koi
Chuck Greene
Then they will probably give them to you in person on the train. But if you are really scared, call the phone number that is on the order form and also in our very own upcoming events section.
FOX!
L.A. maybe says Newkirk Plaza David.
Sallam, did you stop the film crew from entering the LA Metro station? Just kidding, I think the scenes were filmed during the LA transit strike as a theory that we didn't see as much as we train buffs like to see.
Sorry about that. And thanks Brian for your help.
WELCOME BACK TRAIN DUDE
IIRC, there are only 2 R-40M/R-42 sets assigned to the L, so where the heck did the third one come from???
Robert
The 3 car rule would be a problem too!
Did they have the 3 car rule while any Standards were still in service? I thought that rule goes way back. I guess it just coulden't be applied to the Standards.
Hey, it worked.
I switched on my pop-up ad suppressor to take care of that.
Anybody else notice this?
Secondly, I highly doubt David P. would put ads on SubTalk, at least without prior notice. You probably have some gator-type ad serving program embedded in your computer.
-Harry
Have you tried the free program Adaware to get rid of whatever spyware is plaguing you?
Ben F. Schumin :-)
But it is being exploted by spammers.
Look for "Messenger" in the service list, double-click on it. Under the "General Tab" set "Service Status" to "Stop" if it's running, then choose "Disabled" from the "Startup type" pulldown.
I know you know, Hank, but others might like to know how to get rid of this pest.
Administrative Tools is not in System, it's right in Control Panel. If you have the category based Control Panel, it's under Performance and Maintenance (the one with the pie chart icon).
But otherwise, that would work.
I suggest installing a program to search and remove spyware. My personal favorite is Spybot Search and Destroy which you can download at http://www.safer-networking.org/ or http://security.kolla.de
Once you install it make sure you download the updates and then run a scan. I bet you will be surprised what you find.
Another poster suggested that you disable "instant messenger", however this is not 100% correct. Windows XP/2000 has a built in messenging service; its purpose was to be for system admins to send messages to users on a network (i.e., the mail server is down, etc). This has been exploited so that spammers can use the messenging service to randomly send popups to computers. From what you described this is not the kind of popup you are receiving, so disabling windows messenger probably won't help your situation. Also, windows messenger is not the same as MSN messenger.
I need to disable instant messenger, too. I don't need the spam coming in that way...
I hope your Thanksgiving was good...
I thought your schedule was too busy for Subtalk. You should just subscribe to Jersey Mike's post-counting service. I think it's free...for now..:0)
Transit Authorities are allllll the same....
First Sea Beach Fred calls the two of us the same entity and now this.
Are you charging Jersey Mike a royalty every time he reports posting numbers?
But maybe I should.
Eh! That pop-up ad was a wake up call for Ron.
Same ad each time - the lady in the bikini selling Viagra.
I believe Dr. Z deals with facial cosmetic procedures.
Dr. Uranus may have inherited Dr. Tusch's practice.
What part of the 3rd Avenue El would a train pull in on the right side of an island platform of a 4-track structure, with 1 track across the platform and 2 above the platform, which turn off to the right and stub end shortly after - and the 2 tracks on the lower level turn sharply to the left.
Also - where the heck would you be on the rightmost of 3 tracks, where the middle track just ends abruptly, without bumping block - and then there is platform?
One more - where is there a 4-track open cut with wierd-looking commuter rail cars that passes under it? What railroad was this? Metro-North? NYW&B?
No idea about the second one.
Last one is just north of Fordham Road, where the El crossed today's Metro North Harlem-New Haven Line (formerly NY Central and New Haven RRs).
Bergen cutoff?
Filmed on location inside, outside and on the side (sorry, couldn't get on top).
http://www.trainweb.org/oaksmodelrr/Video/Index.html
About a crewman in the pilothouse as the ferry Andrew Barberi crashed into a maintenance pier.
Michael
Washington, DC
CG
The kicker to the story is that this department is supervised by the Commissioner of the DOT - Iris Weishal a/k/a Mrs Charles Schumer !
Well then he deserved the beating.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A29790-2003Dec2.html
apparently the Herndon City Council is responsible for effectively killing the proposed project. a quote: "Now the project is dead, and it may be 25 years until we see rail to Dulles."
Actually, if Bush would push for more funding for this project, the Herndon City Council would not be a factor. Plenty of excess highway funding – time to divert it for once.
Bummer. Back to the drawing board. It also means that Reagan Airport remains the easiest to reach and use.
Meanwhile, the Blue Line Extension and the New York Av station should be less than a year away from opening.
Part of the reason MBTA got money to expand its system is that Boston is the capitol of Massachusetts. MBTA rail is in the faces of legislators and staff every day.
If NYC were the capitol city of New York State, the New York City subway would have gotten more $$$ for expansion over the years...
WMATA needs billions of dollars to build the Dulles Line-billions that other subways are in need of also- they need to get in line like every other transit system if they want federal dollars.
Boston got federal funding because at the time it was given, the Congressman from Boston was also the House Speaker (Tip O'Neill).
AEM7
Even NYC had to rethink some of its core services. Recall that, in the 1960s, express tracks were added to the IND 6th Av line.
Although there is a school of thought that people will always hold doors, no matter how frequently you run the train, so the maximum practical capacity on a two-track line would always be around 25 tph, unless you had some way to restrain people physically from boarding when it is time for the train to leave. Platform doors is one way of achieving this (since it is a lot harder to hold a platform door than a train door, as there is no risk of dragging, a platform door could afford to be a lot more aggressive).
AEM7
Do/Did they do what they were supposed to do?
I expect to see all 23 miles of this line to be built.
John
Regards,
Jimmy
-One post says the Promo list is thrown out, another says it stands.
-One post says O/C people will be called in the spring or summer, the other says not for 3 years.
-One post says lots of T/O's are retiring, another says this isn't true.
I respect and appreciate everyone's contributions here, but can those who took the T/O exam really get reliable information here on subtalk?
Also, two questions I have:
How many T/O's are retiring soon?
Apparently many people did well on the promo exam...but how many people actually took it, vs. the O/C exam?
Again, it is nice to get information on here. But I do wonder sometimes what is fact vs. rumor sometimes. -Nick
The test was easy but so was the last one and that did not get thrown out.
These lists take time so even with the answer key expect a wait.
As for T/O retiring most would like ot BUT they do not have the time or age. Most of the stuff about T/O retiring involves assuming that Pataki will sign the 20/50 retirement plan (fat chance). There really are not that many people that have the time and age right now. They hired a ton of people in 1982-1984 and not all of them will be 55 when they get their 25 years in so expect little movement.
The other source of T/O openings were rumors that the Manny B reopening will create jobs well as I have been saying it would not and there was a net loss of 24 road jobs from the current pick to the next and some cuts in work train jobs too.
Except for accidents and service delays you will find a low accuracy on Subtalk. In time you will find who gives useful info in what areas and make your own determinations. When you get the job you will see that what made sense from the outside no longer does on the inside. Several people here lost their attitudes about bad MTA employees when they got inside and saw that you often get forced to make things work when they shouldn't.
If you do get in, send me an email, I am a shop steward and can get you some valuable information that will help you when you are road extra.
Good luck
And then you'll lose your job. You may want to reconsider breaking loose the hell. Or don't take a job with the MTA.
If a C/R had taken the 2000 Open Competitive test for T/O and been hired, he/she would have needed to take a leave of absence from their current title. During their probationary year, if they decided they didn't like the job OR if something happened that would cause their firing, they would be able to return to their prior title. If something happened after that one year, they would effectively have no prior title to fall back to and would bee out of a job.
Now many believe that the promo list will be called first in addition to their getting extra points for prior service.
Ona promotional test in this title, your test score is 85% of your total score. The other 15% comes from seniority (and I don't remember the scale used), so: if two C/Rs both take the promotional test for T/O and both have a RAW score of 100 (everything correct), they start out with an 85. Now come the points for seniority - C/R A has one year in title and gets 4 points, C/R B has four years in title and gets 10 points. Even though their RAW scores were the same, their FINAL scores will be 89 and 95.
Now we look at the other possibility: same two C/Rs getting the same seniority points but scoring differently on the exam. C/R A gets a 90 on the exam, plus 4 points for a FINAL of 94, while C/R B gets an 83 on the exam plus 10 points for a FINAL of 93. C/R A, even though junior by two years, has outscored C/R B and gets a place on the list.
Where is the DCAS or NYCT announcement of this policy?
It is (was) on the Notice of Announcement.
If a promo gets a 99 and an O/C gets a 100 the O/C is called first. Thats the way NYCT wants it.
Civil Service Laws require the promotional list to be used first if both lists are established from the same test, no matter what Transit wants. Transit shot themselves in the foot when they gave the promotional test in 1998, so they could get the O/C T/O test; before they try to mess with the system again, they might actually think twice about it.
After that, for another twelve months, service will resume to North Station, using the new underground station. Busing will continue to Science Park and Lechmere. Then sometime in mid-2005, full service will resume to Lechmere using the new ramp up from North Station under to the existing elevated just south of the Charles River.
AEM7
How do you replace the Green Line with heavy rail. In the south and west direction, the trolleys exit the tunnels are run on the street. Are you going to convert all of that to subway (isolate ROWs, sink them into trenches, replace intersection crossings with overpasses, build new high-level stations, purchase new subway cars, install new signalling)?
Connect the D branch of the Green Line to a heavy rail downtown tunnel. Build a major transfer point at Kenmore Sq. Remove the E branch (or stub-end it at Prudential and provide a walk-way transfer to Copley).
It's actually easier than you think. Major works would be required in a number of places, but it's cheaper than the cost of continued overcrowding.
AEM7
Most stations on the downtown portion of the Green Line (Kenmore to Park) are actually long enough to allow double-berthing of two-car trains (i.e. 4 car lengths in total). So the platform length is somewheres around 300 ft, or 3 subway-car lengths. The real problem is some of the curvatures in the tunnel is too curvy for either platforming by heavy rail vehicles or for even operating long cars. Those are likely to be the major expense of doing up the Green Line for heavy rail service.
Then there is the question of what you do while construction is taking place. Theoretically, you could operate the existing trolleys while you use posessions to straighten out curves, and then you could introduce a heavy rail vehicle with trolley poles that would platform at low level platforms (which would not be ADA compliant, by the way) as an interim measure while you raised the platforms one at a time.
AEM7
AEM7
It would releieve overcrowding on the Green Line between GC and Kenmore. There could also be a Blue-Red connection if a stop could be built at Park Street to connect to the Red Line and there would be a station right at the front steps of the State House.
Would you keep the green line heavy rail in the above ground sections, like the B, C, and D branches? If your not planning on making tunnels under Beacon and Comm ave, how would you make it efficient to work with the traffic? -Nick
Better start singing: Noel
Yakko: What are you doing, Wakko?
Wakko: I'm writing a letter a Santa, telling him what I want
for Christmas.
Yakko: Wait a minute -- hold the phone! That's not how you
spell `Santa'.
Wakko: It isn't?
Yakko: No; you've got it all wrong.
Wakko: Well, how do you spell it, then?
Yakko: To spell Santa's name
Is easy to do
You write S, A, N, T
And another A, too.
But no L, no L
Santa's name has no L
And he won't be too pleased
If you don't learn to spell.
Wakko: Jack and Jill went up the hill
To fetch water from a well
But when neither one could find it
Jill started to yell.
Dot : No well, no well
Can't believe there's no well!
We walked all the way here
And I'm mad, can't you tell.
Yakko: Captain Ahab took his crew
His harpoon and set sail
And he called out to ships
Ahab : Have you seen the white whale?
Crew : No whale, no whale
No, we ain't seen no whale
Man 1: Saw a couple of dolphins
Man 2: And a big yellowtail.
YW+D : If you've listened to this tune
Then you probably can tell
That you've heard it before
It's a song you know well.
Know well, know well
It's a song you know well
And we've ruined it completely
So we all say, "Oh well."
Oh well, oh well
We'll just say, "Fare thee well"
Merry Christmas to you
And a joyous Nol.
Take as many exams as you can, and thanks Ron!
Who would really use that transfer, as there's a better cross-platform one to A for people heading Downtown.
Arti
If you are at Metro Av, the G is useless as you have to transfer onto the L first.
#3 West End Jeff
www.forgotten-ny.com
The work couldn't be accomplished during the recent bus and rail strike because the MTA's own rail-grinding machine needs $1.3 million in repairs.
Rail grinding is really a preventative maintenance program for rails.
AEM7
On a very macro level, that is true. However, on a micro level, because the track isn't always perfectly straight or perfectly gauged, the railcar tend to snake from side to side seeking the path of least resistance (due to wear patterns in the rail, oscillation induced by switchwork or inperfect railwork, and out-of-round wheels).
The outside rail's inside aspect
"The gauge-corner of the rail"
contacts the railcar wheel's flange and forces the railcar to follow the curve.
Sort of. Actually the railcar starts off by oscillating off-center slightly towards the outside of the curve (i.e. flange into the gauge corner). Ideally, before the flange contacts the gauge corner, the contact point between the tread and the railhead (top of the rail)on the outside rail has shifted in such a way that a taller portion of the tread (closer to the flange) is contacting the gauge side of the railhead (closest to the flange). The opposite effect occurs on the inside rail, where the contact point is shifted away from the flange, allowing a narrower portion of the flange to contact the railhead. The effective difference in the diameter of the wheel at the contact points now guides the wheelset around the curve without the flange ever coming into contact with the gauge face of the rail.
Therefore, the points of friction include the top of the rail against the wheel itself as it is rolling, and the wheel flange to curved rail.
Unfortunately, this often happens, due to a combination of overspeed, badly maintained rail profiles, and badly maintained wheel profiles, and perhaps badly designed curves or reverse curvature where this sort of thing is bound to happen.
But that wasn't really the answer I was looking for. I was trying to point out that for a curved section of track to be perfectly tuned to allow no contact between the rail and the wheel, this can be done through cant (banking, or elevation), but this only works at a constant "optimal" speed for a vehicle of constant weight and wheel diameter. I guess if you made railcars out of diamond and put the entire track in air conditioned environment with subgrade that is balanced on a gyroscopic table, you might just be able to tune it...
One could, I suppose, "tune" the system to some degree by standardizing railcar design on that system (all cars have same weight, same ground pressure, same wheel design). Miami Metrorail's cars are all from one manufacturer and and Atlanta's MARTA cars are from one manufacturer; Washington Metrorail does that to some degree. New York is a mess by comparison.
I presume you mean wheel flange! Otherwise, we have levitation!
There are some good diagrams and explanations on this page in trainweb. Credit is due to Jersey Mike who first pointed me in the direction of this repository of railway technical information.
http://www.trainweb.org/railwaytechnical/whlbog.html
"oooh, it's a big nasty thing that makes a lot of sparks
and noise so that little lip thingy won't rub the other
thing anymore"
Sounds like they are instituting a rail grinding program to
provide gauge corner relief. Anyone out there familiar with
the line? Are these guarded curves?
How was the conductor able to see what he was doing with the rollsigns?
There were numeric codes for each available route. One set the code, pushed a button, and the train did the rest. Usually 100% successful, especially in the early days of these cars. Later on, one or two might not cycle and would have to be changed manually; but it sure beat changing all sixteen signs by hand.
WOW. I never knew such a thing existed!
Why don't the R-62s/68s have this feature?
Also there's a chance it didn't work out very well when some signs went just a little bit out of place on the preGOH 44s and 46s.
WOW. I never knew such a thing existed!
Why don't the R-62s/68s have this feature?
Photos include: U34CH; RL-1; FP7; B36-7; SW1200 (plus the one that became a BL-15); Geeps and FA-1 #615 (former LIRR Power Pack).
In a seperate section is a shot of overhauled PCC #2320.
Dan
Sharing IS Caring, bub. LOL
There were plenty of RedBird number plates on hand.
It isn't the R17 one (a/k/a Redbird in Air). It is the Whale version (the 2nd one in the series of 3 Art cards so far).
One thing to note - they want $19.95 for the item.
Someone stole the side and bulkhead destination sign boxes, as well as the taillight lenses.
The car does not have obligatory tuna stains........... yet.
I knew this teaser was more difficult than it looks.
TICK TOCK, clock is ticking, answer at 5 PM, gotta run to the hearing soon.
THE EXPRESS AND LOCAL MARKER LIGHTS ARE IN THE WRONG PLACES (express on the right side of the car, local on the left).
Huh?
The R-17 was delivered in Tuscan Red (which is represented in the poster) and ended its career in Redbird red.
It sold out; they aren't reordering.
Colonial : Moffat or Rockaway Ave and Bway (Chauncey St station)
RKO Bushwick (now under renovation), Loews Gates : Southwest side of Broadway near Gates Avenue station
Casino Theater : Bway and Dekalb Ave (Kosciuszko St. station)
Decatur Theater : Decatur and Bway (between Halsey and Chauncey St. stations : probably now demolished.
RKO Madison Theater (now a Liberty Dept. Store) Myrtle Avenue at Woodbine St. Ridgewood. You can see the west side of it from the Wyckoff Avenue platform on the M line. Graffiti is now much more prominent than the original "RKO Madison Theatre" lettering. You can see the progression of this in the BMT Myrtle Wyckoff Avenue photos on this site.
Another bldg, visible from Wyckoff Avenue platform, on northeast side of Wyckoff between Gates and Palmetto, used to be the Parthenon Theater.
RKO Bushwick (now under renovation),
The RKO Bushwick, an ornate theater sat in shambles for many years (decades?) at the Gates Ave station. Fires and water damage had done it's toll. Thankfully the theater looks great on the exterior as it is being completely refurbished. Unfortunately years of neglect have made the interior had to be gutted, but I think they have made apartments out of it. Here's a photo from April in a "before" shot, and an "after" shot in July. Currently it is even more progressed:
Loews Gates : Southwest side of Broadway near Gates Avenue station
Visable in this photo at Gates Ave:
Casino Theater : Bway and Dekalb Ave (Kosciuszko St. station)
I think this may be the big white building on the right visable in this photo. In the 70's and 80's this building was in total shambles, and painted red and white. I used to call it the "Candy-stripe building". It has also been refurbished into apartments:
RKO Madison Theater (now a Liberty Dept. Store) Myrtle Avenue at Woodbine St. Ridgewood. You can see the west side of it from the Wyckoff Avenue platform on the M line. Graffiti is now much more prominent than the original "RKO Madison Theatre" lettering. You can see the progression of this in the BMT Myrtle Wyckoff Avenue photos on this site.
The "Madison Theatre" painted sign is still fairly visable from Wyckoff, though getting less by the year. The theatre was originally a Vaudville theatre and very ornate inside. It was converted for movies, and survived into the 70's. In the late 70's or early 80's the Madison burned. After a theater it was a Consumers and an Odd-Lot. As Consumers, you could still make out the balcony and the layout of the theater. Click on the thumbnail below and look to the right of the tower for the remains of the "Madison Theatre" sign.
Another bldg, visible from Wyckoff Avenue platform, on northeast side of Wyckoff between Gates and Palmetto, used to be the Parthenon Theater.
Thank you for that! I always wondered about that building "at the Wyckoff Curve" (visable in the photo below, on the left). I always thought it was a theater, but never knew what, and wasn't sure. Do you know when it closed?
Commodore
I don't know when the Parthenon stopped showing movies. It was sometime between 1948 and 1961. There's a photo of a trolley at Myrtle and Wyckoff in the Smith and Kramer B Q Transit Book that shows the Parthenon still showing movies (a marquee with lettering on it is visible in the background). By fall 1961 it was a bowling alley on the ground floor. My mom and I would stop in there during my lunch break from first grade at nearby St. Brigid School, 438 Grove Street.
The Imperial Theater used to be at Irving and Dekalb Avenues. My uncle, now age 82, saw the Lugosi "Dracula" there as a kid. Later, it became a Robert Hall clothing store. When that same uncle of mine left the Armed Forces after WW II, he went there for some new civilian clothes.
I miss it also. I think it survived until the late 90's, although had been abandoned and in shambles for as long as I can remember. I was really sorry to see it go when they removed it. It must've been a "real" theater at one time, as opposed to a "movie theater". It was extremely ornate. I never was inside, but when they were demolishing it, the interior was exposed in all it's glory. In the final days the stage was visable from the station. It had ornate plaster around it, and Doric or Corinthian columns, and little balconies near the stage. I wish I took some photos of the demolition.
Here's a photo of it from "Ghost" filmed in the early 90's. It is visable to the left of the J train. (sorry about the quality, it's from a VHS tape as I don't have Ghost on DVD). In addition, for those of you that have Greller's "The Brooklyn ELevated" book on page 93, there is a photo of Myrtle when they were rebuilding the el to Dual Contracts standards, and three tracking the line. The Broadway Theater is visable there in the photo taken in 1913. It didn't appear to be a new building then either, so it must have been an old theater. A real shame it is gone.
"Ghost" was released summer 1990, so I surmise the filming was done in 1989.
Please, what is the full title of the Greller "BMT Elevated" book ? It's good to know about that photo on p. 93.
I believe that Greller did the text and Watson supplied the photos.
You might enjoy the Clive Barker story, "Son Of Celluloid". It's about a run-down but still active revival cinema, and is in a volume of the "Books Of Blood".
The fare structure between PATH ($1.50) and NYCT ($2.00) is different.
Good question because last week I asked about the bus to PATH transfer (even with a setp-up charge) but there is no agreement between the two agencies on this issue.
Maybe at that time the PATH urnstiles at WTC would allow a metrocard entry as well as a quick card. Was it possible?
Among other issues, perhaps older cars are better "known" in the shops and have been optimized over the years for service, while new cars are a relative unknown until they've seen some service life.
Or is that too much to ask?
When several hundred people fight the crowd down to an Arrow III train and walk briskly along the train looking for a car with seats available, how many passengers count cars? Depending on the stairway used, sometimes you don't even see either end of the train.
Only the people with the most highly refined observation skills (you, for example) always know which car they're in.
BTW, on Arrow III trains, the car numbers are usually mentioned in the announcements.
While announcing car numbers would be nice, it could simply add more confusion -- as car numbers aren't visible from all areas of the car (and are missing on the interior of some cars). Also, the car numbers that make up the consist frequently aren't known to all of the crew. Often at Penn, you'll hear the conductor tell the engineer "10 cars, 9724 is the rear motor". If the crew doesn't have that info when they board, they certainly don't know the car numbers in the middle.
The most effective announcements I've heard are "Kew Gardens next. If the doors on your car didn't open at Forest Hills, then they aren't going to open at Kew Gardens".
CG
Agreed. However, at Penn, there is a sign at each track that says "Front of LIRR Train --->"
But then again, how many people take the time to read the signs? I remember, back before the Broadway tracks of the Manhattan Bridge opened up, I would find people standing on the platform of the Canal Street (Bridge Line) station, expecting a train to show up, despite the "TRAINS DON'T STOP HERE" signs hanging over the platform edge. I even saw this when there weren't any tracks for the trains to run on!
NJ Transit does this routinely. I have also been told when having my ticket checked by a conductor that I will need to move up x cars to disembark when the time comes.
As to whether people remember what car they are in: railfans do. Ordinary mortals are paying much more attention to newspapers, magazines, planning work, planning mealsall the other stuff that gets in the way of railfanning! The best that most do is remembering that they are near the front/middle/back.
This is the most effective method as anouncing car numbers still can create a mad scramble to find the correct car.
Its not as bad as you would think as the regular commuters either:
a) Know where they want to be on the train so that they can get to the station exit quickly
or
b) If the train is crowded and they cant get space where they want, at least know that the announcement means get your butt in gear!
The only two places that I hear the announcement regularly are New Brunswick (either direction) and Rahway northbound, where the switch to the outside platform prevents the whole train from platforming.
(Plus Jersey Avenues low-level, where the announcement is find a member of the train crew, but the commuters there all know that)
And I am one of those trainmen who engages in that practice. I find that it avoids delaying the train waiting for the passnegers run to the proper location or dealing with angry passengers who have to ride back to their missed stop.
I don't usually announce car numbers due to the fact that after 5 years on the railroad, I have found that a lot (if not MOST) of people are either too lazy, too stupid, or too drunk to look for things like that. I usually make an announcement where I tell the people that if they're not sure what car they're in, walk forward until they see a member of the crew who will direct them. Of course, all of this "information" is useless when the affected passenger is babbling away on a cellphone and not listening to the announcements. After they miss their stop, I usually tell them that now they can use their lovely cellphone to call a taxi!
How often does this happen, as per your experience?
I was always a regular on train 93 (back in the 80's).
One day I get on the train, and we leave the station, and *then* the conductor tells me that I left my car lights on. : (
So when I got to the city (they didn't *have* cell phones in those days) I called home, and mom drove down to the station and turned them off for me. : )
Elias
:0)
On Sunday a couple got on a southbound 1 at Rector. From their conversation, it appeared that they were on their third attempt at getting to South Ferry. They were positioned properly this time (fourth car), but they still got nervous when the train stopped between stations (I take it a 5 was crossing in front of us).
This move was being done with passengers, despite what some crews seemed to think. (I have an email from the General Superintendent of the 4/5/6 that backs me up on this.)
Northbound 2's ran up the East Side.
What, in this horrible and dangerous city?
I wonder how much they spent on their back-and-forths, since Rector doesn't have a crossover, and if they were using unlimiteds, the 18-minute lockout would still have been in effect on their second try.
I'm sick of people like you suggesting that I have to accept rail service the way its given and like it. If I'm paying to ride the LIRR, and I pay to the tune of over $2,000 yearly, I have the right to AT LEAST ASK FOR superior service. The LIRR isn't giving me anything for free. I'm not asking for anything outlandish here - there are LIRR crew members who do announce the car numbers, so why can't it be standard practice?
Incorrect. The LIRR is giving you at least 40% of your ride for free (Their fare recovery ratio is in the high 50%'s, I believe). They are also most likely to make their money on the first twenty miles outside the city, where the highways are the most congested. I don't know where you travel from, but if you are travelling from ways out in the suburbs, it is likely that LIRR is heavily subsidizing your ride. So they are giving you at least a portion of the ride for free.
I'm not asking for anything outlandish here - there are LIRR crew members who do announce the car numbers, so why can't it be standard practice?
Because, LIRR crew, just like you, are people, and people are not machines and don't always work the same way. If machines operated the LIRR line, then you can expect them always to work in the same way when they're working. When they're not working, they still have to be repaired by a human.
AEM7
Ladies and Gentlemen, our train this afternoon is longer than the platform in ____________, if the blue lights are flashing in your car, please move ____________, to a car that will platform at the station.
Thank you for your inattention.
Incorrect. The LIRR gives me NOTHING for "free." A ride is a ride, its not divided into portions. By your own statistics, I pay for at least 60% of my ride. Right? So right there, my ride is not "free." And how can you divide up a ride by "paid" and "free" sections? Is there a sign posted somewhere along the route saying "Fares Not Applied Beyond This Point?"
And I pay for at least a portion of the "free" 40% of my ride by paying all kinds of taxes to the State, which in turn gives money to the MTA, which in turn funds the LIRR. The LIRR does not have it own money - its either the MTA's money or the riders' money. Either way, I pay.
And I ride in from Cedarhurst, which is about 2 miles from the Queens border. The LIRR still places me in Zone 4 which means I pay as much in fare as someone living much farther out in Nassau County than I do, while being carried fewer miles per day and getting fewer services. So I'm getting rooked there too.
"Because, LIRR crew, just like you, are people, and people are not machines and don't always work the same way. If machines operated the LIRR line, then you can expect them always to work in the same way when they're working. When they're not working, they still have to be repaired by a human."
Bull. There are standardized practices on the LIRR, just as there are in every established business. Ticket checking is done all the time on every train, so why can't car announcements be made a standard practice too? Come on - announcing which cars would be affected by train positioning is not a great additional hardship on anyone. In fact, it wouldn't even always be in place - I have many trips to and from Cedarhurst where all cars stop at all stations, so no announcements would even be necessary. But it would be a nice service for the passengers.
Your post is just another example of someone trying to protect MTA employees to make sure that they have to do as little as possible for their salaries. There are MANY MANY occasions that I see crew members, having completed their ticket-checking in their designated cars, just sitting around griping and moaning about something or another, as if they were the only ones on Earth who feel that they are underpaid and underappreciated. Providing such announcements would be a MINIMAL burden on them and a great service for passengers.
By your logic, parents would have no right to complain about the quality of the public school system -- since it is 100% subsidized.
CG
Actually, no. The American public have basically no right to complain about public schools when compared with their British counterparts who send their kids to private schools. I was one of those private school snobs and I was able to strongarm the school into providing a number of things which I would not have gotten in the public school system in either country. For instance, I pointed out that my absence from school is no cause for their concern: they simply need to make sure the sponsors (i.e. my parents) knew about it, and they have no right to punish me unless the sponsors agreed. The other issue was regarding class scheduling; I made them accommodate a five-subject elective combination when the school nominally support a maximum of four-subjects per academic year. In fact, the contract for my education was terminated with one of the schools because they refused to make this provision; we gave the contract to a competing school that offered a scholarship in addition to the five-elective requirement.
AEM7
Much of the LIRR's funding comes from the MTA as a whole. Subway riders and bridge users are footing some of the bill.
I do agree that this doesn't relieve him of the right to complain.
The fare recovery ratio on the LIRR, prior to the latest fare hike, was 25%. Has the fare hike changed that significantly?
Are you sure about that?
According to the MTA's 2004 budget, on either a cash or accrual basis, the LIRR's farebox recovery is just about 40%, and has been since 2002 (earliest year they show).
See pages 198 - 207 of http://www.mta.info/mta/budget/pdf/financialplan_vi.pdf
CG
If you take bus and subway together, it woul appear that the gap between LIRR and city riders in terms of subsidy has narrowed a bit. That's good.
CG
And so after all these years, do you not yet know which cars will platform at your station, and where to find those cars while they are still in Penn Station?
I Merrick (IIRC) only on 12 car trains did the first two miss the platform. But then I never ever rode on the east end of the train, and so it did not matter to me where those cars stopped.
Elias
Of course, just to be fair, I have to admit the pre-M1's had the stairwells on the trains so people were able to get off where there was no platforms.
Well, I for one would stand on the bottom step, hanging on to the grab iron and leaning over the edge as the train swept into the station.
The grade crossings were great things in those days.
Yeah, stoopit people could get killed or worse, but we could put pennies on the track, and then sit by the wayside and watch the trains come into town.
Elias
How many stations in diesel territory have that problem?
That makes 3 stations so far. Any others?
I'm sure 3 cars is enough for the rush hour traffic.
Greenport shuttle trains seem to platform only 1 1/2 cars, with one of the doors locked out until Ronkonkoma. I'm not sure exactly which of the intermediate stations are short enough to require that.
OK, so this is potentially a problem for passengers.
At Penn the signs direct you to the front of the train. If its a diesel hauled train you're getting on at any station, you need to remember that the diesel locomotive always leads or trails away from Manhattan (unless there are power units on both ends).
It would be nice to know which car you're in positionally...
CG
All of the following are short platforms which regularly have longer trains stopping at them.
Forest Hills and Kew Gardens are only 4 cars.
Hollis is only 4 cars
St. Albans is only 6 cars
Valley Stream is only 8 cars
Rosedale is currently only 6 cars (during renovation -- being expanded to 10)
Lynbrook (Long Beach Branch platform) is only 10 cars
Oceanside is only 8 cars
Amityville/Copaigue/Lindenhurst are only 10 cars
Either New Hyde Park or Merrilon Ave (I think NHP) is only 10 cars
Floral Park westbound mainline is only 6 or 8 cars.
Westwood, Lakeview and Hempstead Gardens are only 4 cars.
Inwood is short -- but I don't recall if it is 4, 6 or 8 cars.
I would think a 10 car platform qualifies as "full length." However, the number of shorter platforms is still pretty considerable.
I wish they had lengthened Kew Gardens and Forest Hills. Recall that LIRR had responded to community requests to improve service to Forest Hills some years back, and had rehabbed the station and added ADA compliance. They then added trains that would stop there. I would have liked a full length pplatform added as well.
Maybe Frank Padavan can help arrange it...
I just realized that my list is short by one obvious station -- Jamaica is only a 10 car platform. On some platforms depending on how the train was switched onto that track and also (I think) where it is going, Jamaica is only open for 8 cars.
CG
I hadn't realized that either! However, having 10 sets of doors open out of 12, or 8 out of 10, is not usually a terrible hardship for passengers (of course rush hour can be its own special hell, no matter how many doors are open).
Yeah, but that still doesn't help if you have no idea what car you are in. I'm a railfan, and I even don't know what car I am in most for the time, forget about your average rider.
However if you have a monthly, they don't ask you where you are going since regulars should know which car they need to be in. Sometimes on peak trains with regular tickets they won't ask either just because they are so busy.
I'd prefer that they made the announcement about first 4 cars one station stop ahead.....ie, on a westbound train, announce that Kew Gardens and Forest Hills are first 4 cars only as you pull into Jamaica, so that you can get off the train and walk forward on the platform (in my experience, thats faster then walking through the cars). They should also be making the anouncement on the train as people are getting on at Jamaica.
As for Penn...since most trains going to Forest Hills and Kew Gardens don't make the Woodside stop, there should be signs at Penn Station telling people to be in the first four cars. Perhaps even signs at the 8th Ave side entrances to the platform telling people to walk forward and board further down for Forest Hills and Kew Gardens.
But honestly, after you do it once, you'll know for the rest of your life....I have a friend who lives in Forest Hills and she always reminds me that we need to sit in one of the first 4 cars if we leave Penn on the same train.
Normally it is controlled by the automation equipment which sends signals from the control center to this electronics bay located in the car:
There will be Customer Service Reps (CSR's) riding the trains to assist passengers, but (at the time I asked) there would not be one in every car. Perhaps that has changed.
Indeed. Here's a pic I took today on Vancouver's Skytrain:
Fast Forward
It's been edited a little for artistic purposes (hence the title) but you get the general idea.
-Robert King
Skytrain runs underground downtown. On the rest of the system, the view from the front window normally looks something like this:
1 end of Metrotown Station from the inbound track
The line is computer-controlled. No T/Os onboard, and while there will be a central control center the operators there don't have the ability to drive the vehicles remotely.
Here is a description of a previous installation of the use of the ATO/ATC system used on Airtrain:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~dodger/tech.htm
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Its a shame this guy is going to have to end his last term with a failure. I mean most senators equate rail transport with some sort of socialism so any constructive debate on the matter is just impossible.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12012003.shtml#Shoot
As far as socialism goes, if we had a foreign company own and operate the train lines, with foreign people employed on it only, then we can make a guise and say it's part of "free trade". Works on everything else.
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Ever since they imposed a 25 mph PSR through towm for grade crossing consideration (Wallingford at one time lead the nation in per capita grade crossing fatalities) there has been little point for trains NOT to stop there.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12012003.shtml#Amtrak
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Yeah...and these new fast trains will have special wide, air cushioned maliable wheels, "steerable" boogies and will be made to run on wide, flat "monorail" tracks. I'm surprised that Texas isn't poineering an experiment in spending federal dollars that deals with extra wide lanes for double wide pickup trucks.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12012003.shtml#Texas
Anyway, i was unclear about something in regards to this, I thought the trains may have to go for a vote(just when the anti-rail people in dallas and houston packed up and went home(out-of-state)).
I do love the trans-texas corridor plans.
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NEW TRAINS?!?!?! OH NO!! Quick! The NINBY Signal. Da-da da-da- da-da da-da, da-da da-da da-da da-da Ass-holes.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12012003.shtml#Poughkeepsie
"The route extends from Metro-North tracks along the Hudson River through the city into the Town of Poughkeepsie to the Hudson River Psychiatric Center, and then back into the city to the Smith Street Yards. "
Will the psychiatric center have a spur track for special deliveries? :0)
At one time they did, 100 years or so ago. Somewhere at home I have a postcard depicting the spur and its station.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Proof that anencephalic politicians occasionally can be found beyond NYC limits.
The statement should be Proof that anencephalic politicians are ubiquitous.
Unfortunately.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Regards,
Jimmy
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
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This new "record" just goes to show how piss poor the European rail freight network is. For comparason a sizable number of american mannifest and bulk freight trains typically run with loads between 10,000 and 16,000 tonnes on a regular basis.
In Europe two axle freight cars are the norm, doubleheading is nearly unheard of and automatic knuckle couplers seem to have a voodo hex on them. As a result their highway system is clogged with trucks witch have a tendency to explode in tunnels killing scads of people at a time. Sure they might have a nice passenger network, but their freight network absolutely sucks and I would rather have trucks off the road than more passenger rail options.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12012003.shtml#Poughkeepsie
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12012003.shtml#Germany
Conrail ore trains could easily go up to 20,000 tons (see the current issue of TRAINS). Not only is the freight network crap, it is also a waste of energy. Ore trains running at 50mph consuming 24,000hp of power, while a similar ore train would probably run with just 12,000hp and at 30mph in North America. Ore just seems to be the densiest thing out there.
AEM7
Containers are light.
AEM7
AEM7
A couple months ago you could have seen "Amtrak Freight Train No. #44" snake out of Harrisburg station and reach some 70mph on the main line between Harrisburg and Lewistown. Too bad all the freights have been cut and the consist is down to one diesel electric with two coaches and a Cafe.
If you're talking about REAL freight railroads going real fast, your best bet is the Conrail main line (ex-NYC) through Upstate New York, through VOOSHERVILLE (ask SelkirkTMO). These days track speed up there is mostly 60mph or 70mph, depending. Most of the CSX and NS trackage in the New York area are slow crawls. There's also NS freight trains running on the Northeast Corridor, oaksmodelrr and Jersey Mike would know the schedules.
AEM7
Stego
N Bwy
Oh yeah? Well I think you must have bumped your head recently.
Oh yeah? Well I think you must have bumped your head recently.
Studies sponsored by the American Trucking Association?
Trucks are environmentally damaging. But there are trucks and there are trucks. Trucks that do intermodal drayage is almost unavoidable, as are trucks that deliver aggregates to construction sites in the city. However trucks that deliver ore to plants, coal to power stations, etc could easily be replaced with rail. In the same way that no one is calling for NYC subway to be extended to Albany, there are different kinds of trucks, some of which can be substituted by rail, others cannot and should not.
AEM7
It's you who need to get off your German kick.
People here care about rail service in places other than the US. No one here wants to hear your ethnic prejudices.
I have my facts straight. You said:
"I don't give a hoot about those rotten Germans, the filthy bunch of ingrates."
You did not call members of the German government filthy ingrates (who I agree with you would deserve the appelation), you applied that to the entire population of the country. That is ethnic prejudice, bigotry, and all the rest.
You wouldn't like it (and neither would I) if anyone called Italians or Italian-Americans filthy anythings. Why is it OK to say it of Germans as a whole?
"Phil Meyer, Fred Repke, John Meiers, Jerry Dohling, and Paul Tyrrell are five of my closest friends and all are either pure American-German descent or most of it."
Are you saying that it's OK to call people filthy as long as they don't live in the United States?
No war - no corpse
There was no reason for an attack against the Iraq.
Bush ordered the attack and now he gets the result.
It's only sad for the families with dead soilders. (The price is to high)
>numerous meetings with Al Quada members
Never heard of that.
Question is how long. China is going to have its own problems.
They are going to be more capitalistic in the future and i guess as a
result someday a democracy. This evolution gives them a lot of problems,
so may be they can't control Kim Jong Il.
>use Nucs to destroy them
And the environment is also destroied for tousands of years.
Compared with the nuces of today, the two dropped in Japan wasn't big,
but the two cities still have problems today.
Might I suggest you turn off Fox (or CNN) and get some real news?
Saddam Hussain was never allied with al Qaida. Al Qaida's backers are primarily Saudi.
Get off the computer and back on the monkeybars, Georgie....
I was going to address the Anti german sentiments.. b/c somehow I knew it was going to go here.. Racism is wrong!
N Bwy
There you have it. Any hyphenated American group is fine by you, but whole foreign nationalities are inherently no damn good. Not their governments or certain of the people. All the people.
What if somebody said that American Jews were fine; it was just all those foreign Jews who were uniformly malevolant people. Would that be OK?
The point appears to have gone clean over your head...
N Broadway
Just how many hours of intense thought did it take you to come up with that awe-inspiring display of your obviously superior intellect?
Here's a pic of the used freight car:
and of the locomotive [i've operated with it twice a three car passenger
train - i loved the acceleration :-) ]
(Sorry that the pics are only from model railway, only did a fast search)
The axle limit is coming from the signal technique. They are counting
up at the entrance point and down at the exit point. The highest number
is 255 and one more (256) is the same as 0. So if a train with 256
occupies a block the counter will be a the value 0 resulting in a
green signal for the occupied block.
Sure they might have a nice passenger network, but their freight network absolutely sucks and I would rather have trucks off the road than more passenger rail options
Guess what—we have neither. The freight railroads keep losing market share to trucks in this country. Slow drag freights are not the way to go if the rail freight companies actually want to compete—fast freight has to make a comeback.
Here’s the right link, BTW.
Highlights are:
Leicester Sq/Tottenham Court Rd: Chinatown
Tower Hill: Tower of London
Westminster: Houses of Parliament
Paddington: Concert Hall, Victoria & Edward Museum
Hey, I miss that place sometimes.
AEM7
Seriously, you can get off at Tottenham Court Road and walk to Russell Square or vice-versa as an easy stroll.
AEM7
suggests that a nice walk would be from St Pauls, across the Millennium bridge (which I believe has now been fixed), then along to London Bridge.
Somewhere to the right of the map is Southwark Cathedral, and Tower Bridge (which is now a museum and you can walk across the top), is nearby.
Too much to do, too much to see!
That is indeed a nice walk. Look for the map in the unpaid part of St Pauls tube station that indicates how to get to the footbridge. On the way to the bridge you will pass St Pauls Cathedral (if you have time visit the (internal) whispering gallery and (external) stone gallery with great views of the city.
Between Bankside and London Bridge you will pass the newly rebuilt Globe theatre (rebuild by Sam and Zoe Wanamaker to the original design of Shakespeare's time) and several other interesting places.
The BBC has details.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/uk/2000/millennium_bridge/default.stm
A significant portion of the cost of running an airline is the ground infrastructure which, in a lot of cases, is rented/leased as part of a shared facility. Airlines have chosen to break this cost out of the overall ticket charge, so they can advertise cheaper flightsthe sticker shock comes later.
I believe this is fraudulent, as its not as if the charges/taxes/etc are optional. Think of NJ Transit advertising a $1 ticket from Princeton Junction to New York, except that it has a $3 Princeton Junction facility charge, a $2 Amtrak Rails Charge and a $2 Penn Station Facility Charge!
Coming from England, where what you see is what you pay (almost universally), as the equivalent of sales tax, VAT, is built into the advertised price, I was bemused when learning that sales tax is additional to the price in the US.
Or how about a $1.25 single-ride subway fare that also requires payment of a $0.75 skell-removal charge :)
Seriously, though, I have to give Virgin credit for honesty. When I searched its site last night for the best fares, it showed the $335.08 right upfront, rather than the basic fare without taxes and fees. Nor did it follow the truly odious practice found in many airline ads, showing a very low fare that upon closer examination turns out to be one-half of the round trip fare.
Interesting observation: I checked several of the low-fare ticket sites, like Expedia, Travelocity, lowestfares.com and cheaptickets.com, and they all were right around the $335 I found on VS's site. I guess they don't always have real bargains.
British Airways is currently advertising a $99 special to London (to celebrate the arrival of Concorde at the Intrepid). They do say its each way, but I wonder what the real cost is with the taxes.
As for prices, since 2000, the cheapest fares have been United, United, Air Canada (through Priceline), Virgin, BA. It always pays to take a look at the airlines own web site as there are sometimes bargains that dont appear elsewhere, especially if you can vary your travel dates by a day or so at the beginning and end. I usually end up with a dozen browser windows open before I make my final choice!
Ill miss the good Christmas television (watching the best of Morecombe and Wise and Only Fools and Horses reminds me of Christmases of my youth), but Im opting for Springtime in the Park.
Not true. When you go to a UK travel agent to book a ticket, the advertized price in the window is sometimes not available, and the advertized price is always exclusives of airports tax, etc.
The reason US sales tax is addition is because you can buy things across state lines while you are supposed to not pay tax (to the producing state) when engaging in interstate commerce. You are supposed to record such transactions and pay your local state taxes on out-of-state purchases, but of course in practice no one does.
The US sales tax system is better. The locals are much more aware of the tax and the companies that produce goods don't have to compete harder in states that have higher tax rates. They simply make a uniform pre-tax price and then let the taxpayers realize they are paying tax, and lobby their politican for tax cuts. This is the reason why U.S. state sales taxes are much lower than their British counterparts -- because Britons don't realize their government is ripping them off.
AEM7
As for sales tax, believe me, I was always aware of VAT at 15% (or even higher at times!). Whether its a rip-off depends on whether you think youre getting value for money from your government.
Yes, in the era of regulated airlines and "British Airways" monopoly.
As for sales tax, believe me, I was always aware of VAT at 15% (or even higher at times!).
17.5% across the whole nation, and have always been this way I think since the Thatcher administration.
Whether its a rip-off depends on whether you think youre getting value for money from your government.
Government never gives you good value for money!
The MTA is essentially a state govt operation in NY, and the MetroCard ranks as one of the best values around.
Most of you New Yorkers (even the ones who have never set foot in Europe) already know what I'm talking about. Like when you walk into a Chinese food joint. 95% of the places in NY have the tax built in. So if good ol' pork fried rice is listed as $2.75, then that's what you'll pay.
It's too bad that the US cannot adopt this convenient form of payment. It would be nice to pull out exactly $49 for something that costs $49 with tax included. Then again with this system, one couldn't barter to pay for a medium-large ticket item without tax when paying with cash.
The line is (partly) subway and (mostly) elevated, and if you can get a seat at the front you have a full width railfan window, because it is fully automated.
If you have only time for one ride, I'd suggest riding from Bank (interchange with Central, Northern, Circle and District lines) out to Cutty Sark on the Lewisham line. This gives you both subway and elevated sections, and if you have time can spend a bit of it in historic Greenwich and perhaps take in the Cutty Sark itself (a preserved sailing clipper).
On the way back, retrace your steps to Heron Quays, and walk the short (and sign-posted) distance to Jubilee line's Canary Wharf station. This is a very new extension and the station's underground is an enormous cathedral like space.
Incidentally I suggest that you buy a one-day off-peak all-zones travelcard which costs UKP5.10, and lets you ride anywhere in London after 9.30am (all day on weekends) on the Underground, DLR, Red Buses and National Rail trains. More information here.
And maybe drink some Cutty Sark (hic!)
You can also get off at Island Gardens and walk under the river in the historic foot tunnel.
H&C/Circle Baker St. platforms, and lots of train operations thru Baker St. Metropolitan. Also Farringdon Metropolitan, Aldgate Metropolitan.
The Jubilee line extension stations -- big and impressive.
The Northern line is pretty complex, lots of trains.
Docklands Light Rail - lots of good photo ops. between Canary Wharf and Poplar; main line rail at Stratford; under Thames tunnel to Lewisham
If you're into trams, Croydon Tramlink (take train from Victoria to E. Croydon or Waterloo -- or the District line-- to Wimbledon). Some nice street running portions around E. Croydon
The Central line Hainault loop, and the Piccadilly line between Ealing and Uxbridge have some really nice picturesque stations many with overpasses for photos.
Still not, until they fix the switch at Camden town, unfortunately.
Some of my favorite segments:
-Met/Jubliee Line express/local operation north of Baker St. The Met will show you how a real express is run.
-Jubliee extension
-Earl's Court station on the district with the old train boards. It's a very busy station
-Baker St has lots of train operation and has a poster telling you that you are in the oldest subway station in the world.
For an express ride, get a Watford, Amersham or Chesham train (these should say fast or semi-fast, most of these start at Baker St) and change onto an Uxbridge train at Harrow-otH.
wayne
Class 332 rolling stock is nominally limited to 100mph. At 102mph the speed limiter will kick in, shutting off power.
AEM7
Started at Covent Garden
Piccadilly to King's X
H&C to Farringdon
Metropolitan to Rayners Lane with photo stops at Harrow on the Hill and West Harrow
Piccadilly to Hammersmith
H&C to Edgeware Road
District to East Putney with photo stop at Notting Hill Gate
District to Sloane Square
I also did some other shorter trips, making slight detours while en route to my real destination. Also, I would ride the DLR if you can. A fun thing to do is to take the ferry if you visit Greenwich. Then, on the return trip, walk through the tunnel under the river. It comes out near the Island Gardens DLR station, and you can then take DLR back to the city.
The DLR is always good fun - full RFWs and a great ride, especially the Lewisham Branch.
Don't forget about National Rail trains. They tend to be out in the open, so more interesting.
Change off the northbound Victoria line - and return from WIllesden either by the DC line to Euston - or jump onto the frequent Bakerloo line which shares the same tracks.
As in NYC avoid the rush hours and school out hours for obvious reasons. (and dont show u are a tourist !)
It's every 20 minutes on Saturdays and every 30 minutes on Sundays. On Mondays to Fridays, alternate trains turn at Stratford (as there is some single tracking to N Woolwich). During the rush hour, there are extra trains between Stratford and Camden Rd.
I referred to the "base service" ...
Very hard work with 450 traincrew etc + West Coast issue.Nevr a dull moment.!
Most traffic south of Stratford was lost with the Jubilee line apart from peaks - so its on a drip feed.Watch out for the DLR - whichc is the best solution probably as much traffic naturally terminates at Stratford (SX in rly terms)
Some ideas at the moment of making Clapham - Camden Rd - Stratford a through link - especially with higher frequewncies on the West Lodnon line making turnbacks at Kensinton tricky.
I suspect what will happen with DLR once the Canning Town - Woolwich Arsenal and Canning Town - Stratford Intl branches open is:
- 6tph Woolwich - Bank
- 6tph Woolwich - Stratford Intl
- 6tph King George V - Crossharbour (rush hour only)
This will probably outcompete the JLE as the lines would actually go somewhere.
Some ideas at the moment of making Clapham - Camden Rd - Stratford a through link
Yuck! What I'd much prefer is when Virgin double their frequency to Birmingham to send the extra 2tph after Watford to West Brompton and Clapham Junction (maybe replacing the crappy Brighton via Didcot service).
Due to a Police investigation at Times Square-42nd Street, the 2 train is running on the 5 line from Nevins Street to 149th Street-Grand Concourse, while the 1 & 3 trains are suspended from 137th Street to Chambers Street and from 96th Street to Nevins Street, respectively.
Oh, are you going to attend the SF hearing tonight in Staten Island? I will be there after 6.
By the way, kids, don't put your fingers in the seam of a closed door on an R142/3 train, because you'll get pinched when the doors open. Don't think that happens on the R46's, though.
BTW, that pinch happens in all car types. It just hurts more when you do it to a R142/A or R143.
I am desperately seeking any info on where to go to get some good photographs (if they still exist) or basically just wander around and see the things firsthand.
I know thre is tons if pictures on this site but I want to go there myself.
Any info is appreciated.
Jim
Some people get in there with permission; others have zoom lenses. The tracks at Bush Terminal are close to the street, so you can get a decent shot with a wide-angle lens through the chain link fence. The Costco parking lot next to South Brooklyn Yard is an excellent vantage point.
any more information is helpful
You are an employee of NY Cross Harbor RR or NYCT (or LIRR; some scrap M-1s have turned up there) with a reason to be in there. Alternately, you could try to ask the security guard for admission, but it isn't guaranteed.
Any R-26/28/29 cars that weren't reefed are being preserved. I would guess the remaining R-14 through 22 cars still in work service may be floated to NJ via Cross Harbor as the R-33s replace them.
Is 7643 even in the work fleet?
http://www.nynewsday.com/news/local/queens/nyc-nyair033568749dec03,0,4645094.story?coll=nyc-manheadlines-queens
I have to wonder about Newsdays slant on the story however:
A lawyer representing them [the family of Kelvin DeBourgh Jr, the worker killed in the 2002 derailment], Douglas Milch, said: "We have serious doubts as to the public safety of this system. If we have no faith or confidence in manual testing of the AirTrain, how can you have faith or confidence for the safety of the general public in an automated system?"
So Douglas Milch knows more than the PA engineers, the contractors engineers, the NTSB engineers
No no no. You got it all wrong. He said FAITH and CONFIDENCE, which is different from knowing the truth. FAITH is something you believe in for no reason, an irrational belief. CONFIDENCE is a sentiment where you believe something will work, regardless of whether it will actually work or not.
NewsDay was simply airing one man's opinion.
AEM7
How bout we all take a ride on the 1st train?
I'd like that, but as of yet, opening time and train info is not available.
"Beginning December 17, passengers will be able to use, free of charge, the six stations in the Central Terminal Area loop for easy connections among all terminals; the Lefferts Boulevard Station for long-term and employee parking; and the Federal Circle Station for car rentals. Service between the Howard Beach and the Jamaica Station AirTrain terminals and the on-airport stations will cost $5 for a single trip. Monthly passes offering unlimited trips will cost $40. Terminals at Howard Beach and Jamaica Station will enable airport passengers and employees to make more than 1,500 fast, easy, convenient and reliable connections every day between the airport and the A, E, J and Z subway lines; Long Island Rail Road trains; and buses. Service from Penn Station in Manhattan to JFK's terminals via AirTrain JFK is projected to take less than 45 minutes; the trip from midtown Manhattan to JFK can presently take more than two hours by car or taxi. The approximately 8-mile light-rail system is expected to serve 34,000 passengers per day at the start."
This release is still not on the PA website, nor is any other info on the service.
My Dec. 2002 bus map shows the Q10 running along Conduit to 130 st., then 134 st. into the airport, not PanAm Rd. Has the route been changed?
My Dec. 2002 bus map shows the Q10 running along Conduit to 130 st., then 134 st. into the airport, not PanAm Rd. Has the route been changed?
Also, see new Airtrain brochure in my other post just now.
Since it will be rush hour, I was thinking that a train stright through to JFK would be better, and faster, then a bus. Don't forget who knows about the trafic situation.
Some afternoon rush hour trains from Penn bypass Jamaica, otherwise the answer is yes.
CG
The JFK Airtrain should have an advantage over Newark for late arrivals. LIRR has 5 or 6 trains per hour from Jamaica to Penn as late as 1 AM. NJT service dies down pretty quickly to about 2 or 3 trains per hour once the PM peak period is over. I've spent too much time on that EWR platform late at night with that horrible stench of rotting trash wafting over the fence.
CG
Do people think that maybe Albany (state government) wants to remember the 100th anniversity of the airplane by opening the JFK AirTrain without properly testing it?
Oh, and between what two stations is the AirTrain yard?
The AirTrain Newark could also use an update... it still tells you to go to NY Penn Station and take the subway or use the 33rd Street PATH line in order to go to "Downtown Manhattan". No mention of the reopened WTC PATH line.
#3 West End Jeff
The Jerk Rate is the rate of change of acceleration; and it is expressed in units of miles per hour per second per second. Today it is a factor in establishing levels of passenger comfort (related to acceleration and deceleration). To fast of a Jerk Rate can result in the vehicle lurching forward and passengers falling back.
I am interested in finding vehicle operating characteristics related to the R 46, including: acceleration, deceleration, operating proceedures of the motor operator, Jerk Rate studies, etc. If you can point me in the right direction that would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.
Generally, the Jerk Coefficient should be (1/Jerk Rate) taken to some x exponet, where x is 1 or 2 or ??
--Z--
It still is, but not here on Schlubtalk.
To whom are you referring?
But the two slower notches were long since DEAD, and so it was basically UP or DOWN.
Now I had to run this elevator while the elevator operator took his lunch period. Well, the car was known for starting and stopping abruptly, and some people always said that it ran with a jerk.
I told them that the *could* use the stairs.
: ) Elias
"Well the Jerk Store called, and they're running out of you!"
(George Costanza to Businessman) Seinfeld episode
Nah. That's the factor of stupidity.
IIRC, they were lenghened slightly towards each other but mostly in the opposite direction.
Interesting.
Elias
This sort of thing has been going on forever - in the 70's someone made a habit of carving "PRAY" on the coinboxes of pay phones (which were shiny chrome compared to the matte black of the rest of the phone housing). They defaced every phone they could get to, and the circulation of coinboxes as they were emptied distributed them to non-public places as well. We had a slang name for this guy's work - "pray phone" (instead of "pay phone").
Not to be too demanding or anything, but I have one more London question. In addition to poking around the Underground, I'd like to make a quick mainline rail trip if time permits. What I had in mind was a trip of about an hour or so, followed by a bit of exploring in the destination. What I'd like to know, therefore, is a trip that might fit the following requirements:
1. No more than 60 minutes one-way from the London terminus.
2. Reasonably frequent service during the day, e.g. two hours or less between trains.
3. Decent scenery en route (can be interesting urban views as well as rural vistas).
4. An interesting, pedestrian-friendly town within walking distance of the station. Note that it does not have to be a typical tourist destination, in fact in some ways I'd prefer it if it isn't.
I know, this is a lot to ask, but I'd really aprpeciate any advice.
Brighton: 50 mins from London Waterloo, beach town, urban scenery en-route (rural once you get past Gatwick), 3rd rail MU's.
Cambridge: 45 mins from London King's Cross, college town, mostly rural scenery en route, lots of green grass, overhead line MU's.
Oxford: 65 mins from London Paddington, college town, mostly urban scenery en route, train passes North Pole depot for Eurostars, DMU's.
Henley-on-Thames: site of the big annual regetta, posh SUPER-QUAINT English town, about 75 mins from Paddington with a change at Reading (good railfanning site on Brunel's Great Western Rly), off the beaten track, somewhat romantic spot. Service operated by Thames Trains.
AEM7
Visit Oxford to see the University buildings, which are very old and very impressive.
For a spectacular view of the English countryside I suggest Box Hill, near Dorking. You take a suburban train from Waterloo and then there is quite a trek up the hill.
Waterloo or Victoria. Go to either and get the first train that calls at Epsom. If the train doesn't go on to call at Box Hill & Westhumble, change at Epsom - it'll either be same platform or cross-platform.
You could also go visit Oxford or Cambridge and walk around the Universities.
Also-- there's plenty of places that you can take the Underground out and Mainline rail back for a short trip. Upminster. Stratford. Ealing Broadway. Wimbledon. Greenwich (DLR).
Vaguely interesting places about an hour or less from London include:
1) St Alban's - historic Roman and mediaeval town - get on any Northbound Thameslink, preferably a Fast one.
2) Oxford - slightly over an hour from Paddington, but THE university town.
3) Cambridge - people from Cambridge would disagree with what I just said about Oxford - it can be reached from King's X or Liverpool St, so it's perfect for a round trip...
4) Coventry - Virgin Trains from Euston, half-hourly service - ruins of the Cathedral destroyed by the Jerries in WWII, National Motor Museum, a few nice churches and some awful 1960s town planning in between.
5) Winchester - trains from Waterloo, destination: Southampton, Bournemouth or Weymouth - nice old city.
6) Salisbury - trains from Waterloo, destination: Salisbury, Yeovil or Exeter - another nice old city.
7) Brighton - frequent services from Victoria, London Bridge and East Croydon - other people have already said why it's great, but I think there are better towns on the South Coast, notably:
8) Chichester - county town of West Sussex, the smallest City in England and definitely one of the most beautiful places in the country. At its centre is a Tudor Market Cross and it has a HUGE cathedral. Nearby are the beaches at the Witterings. Oh and the trains go from Victoria.
9) Portsmouth. It's not as grim as people say. Trains from Waterloo, also slower ones via Chichester from Victoria.
10) Arundel - hourly service from Victoria - nice castle.
If you wanted somewhere more rural:
1) Box Hill. Get the first train from either Waterloo or Victoria that calls at Epsom. Change there (same platform or cross-platform) if it doesn't go on to call at Box Hill & Westhumble. Trains roughly half-hourly, more in the rush hour, some rush hour trains to/from London Bridge.
2) Anywhere in the South Downs...
Yes. I rode it this summer.
According to this web site, it re-opens for 2004 on Good Friday (the friday before easter).
-Robert King
-Robert King
-Robert kIng
No, there was no demand. Some lines esp cross-London ones did fall through the crack when the franchises were decided, but mostly because they were lightly used and weren't worth developing when the railroad became fragmented. Had it been Network Southeast, they could have developed it more, but the rolling stock there was bad enough as it is...
Not really - I can do day trips from Birmingham to Epsom, including a cross-London transfer. Okay, that does involve setting out pretty early and arriving back late at night, but it's doable. Anyway, no-one's suggested anything quite that monstrous.
Good point. I've gotten some good suggestions so far, thanks to everyone, and right now I'd say I'm leaning toward Brighton. The 60-minute trip is reasonable, and it sounds as if the city's not really a tourist destination, at least in winter. My idea of tourism is to go where and when the other tourists don't.
Another option would be Stratford-upon-Avon, too.
Takes quite a long time to get to from London: about 130 minutes direct from Paddington. Likewise, Warwick is 97 minutes out of Marylebone (which shows quite how pisspoor the Leamington-Stratford service is...).
Shows that Chiltern need Fast Trains.
I'd like to rebuild platform 4 at Banbury into a through platform and have Chiltern do what MML do at Leicester - a cross-platform interchange where the Fast train overtakes the Slow one.
1) take BR train from Waterloo Station to Portsmouth
2) take Ferry to Ryde, Isle of Wight (runs every half hr)
3) train from Ryde to Shanklin leaves right at quayside. ]
4) reverse directions to return to London. Ferry to Portsmouth, then BR train to Waterloo.
Simon and I left at 9:45am and got back about 6:15pm. This included a stop at the Ryde St.John's Shoppe and a walk through the town to the High Street, and also a lunch stop. We killed over 2 hrs doing that.
wayne
Quite a lot to see whilst you are there. Windsor Castle is probably the best preserved Castle in England, and it is huge, looming over the town. If you have time, you can visit the state rooms there which are impressive.
There is the River Thames, which is particularly atractive in Windsor. If you fancy it, and the weather is decent, there are boat trips.
A short walk across the bridge is Eton, with its shool where most of the British establishment go to school, and a fine mediaeval chapel.
All pretty pedestrian friendly. It is a fairly small town, and nothing is more than 10 minutes walk from anywhere else. Here is some tourist info.
And from the point of view of a train journey, the great advantage is there are two different routes so you can make it a round trip. Catch the electric train from London Waterloo direct to Windsor & Eton Riverside (twice hourly/50min journey), then return from Windsor & Eton Central to London Paddington changing at Slough (twice hourly/30-40min). Or vica versa.
Both journeys are pretty urban; you won't see much in the way of rural scenery beyond a few fields. On the Waterloo leg you will see Clapham Junction (supposedly the UKs busiest rail station in terms of train movements). On the Paddington Log the depot where the Channel tunnel trains are maintained.
I figure there are 2 possible explinations.
1. It was some stock announcement in the computer and someone was flipping through them.
2. Or this is part of the new communication system.
Any thoughts?
Sean@Temple
-Robert King
Airtrain---Or Ticket To Hell?
If you're not familiar with New York Press, I think it's safe to say that it has a definite anti-establishment slant.
Has anyone heard of the violent rocking incident as described in the article?
Not so much anti-establishment as perpetually cynical. You name the idea, plan, scheme etc., and the Press will point out why it'll never work. It's probably because I'm on the cynical side that I can see this tone in the Press.
You mean "Armstrong Levers"? Did the Subway EVER have those things?
Elias
As much as I like conventional interlocking plants, they do require
frequent lubrication, cleaning and adjustment. And when adding
a switch means machining new tappet bars, these old clunkers just
can't compete with all-relay plants.
I am familiar with many cases of service disruptions because
of worn mechanical parts that caused levers to bind, locks
not to release, contact bands not to make up, etc. Not to mention
the occasional (on Model 14 machines) lever pulled clean out
of the machine!
You are right that these things (unless a master or traffic
lever is involved) generally can't cripple the entire plant
and definitely not the entire division.
In theory, all of the computer-based automatic dispatching
systems are just a Windoze application that "pushes" the
entrance/exit buttons of a conventional NX/UR plant. If
the computer craps out you can always go to the maintainer's
panel or aux control panel (if provided) and line the routes.
However, if management is relying on the cost savings provided
by the computer, there may not physically be enough people around
to manually push those buttons!
R-32.
How did the push-button emergency release work? Was there
a timer associated with it?
You could make any machine pickup a GRS indication magnet, the north end of West 4th works that way now.
I haven't met anyone who's even heards of a GRS Model 4 switch on the system, and I've asked a few "curators" about it. Even the machines on the now defunct K tracks at ENY were Model 5's, but the circuit controllers were of an older design.
Model 1 - Introduced by Taylor, like a Model 2 with no pole changer
Model 2 - Simple machine with gears upright, small size, but a little tall. Had a connecting point for a detector bar - used for converting a pipeline mechanical into an electric interlocking without installing track circuits.
Model 4 - Developed for the New York Central, flat to clear 3rd rail shoes. Gears and motor flat to the ground. Cam bar moves twice in the same direction for each throw.
Model 5 - Develpoed for the BRT(N.Y.M.Ry.)because the Model 4 was to wide for use in the hole, it is short and flat. Cam bar moves out and back during throw, motor and clutch are parallel to the rails, and other operating gears are flat to the ground.
Model 5A,B,C,D,etc. were Model 5's modified for mainline RR's with such features as integral point detectors, and dual-mode operation.
Model 6 - A Model 5 for use in yards, lacking a lock bar. Because of this modification the operating time is only 1 second (instead of 3). Developed for use in hump classification yards.
Model 7 - Essentially a motor driven switch stand for roads with a limited capital budget.
We call it a "Switch Machine" or "Switch and Lock Movement," but rarely a "Switch Movement."
I know you guys were duscussing interlockers, but Jeff and I have been wondering about the Mod.4/BMT thing for a while, and he did ask the question...
GRS is confusing because everything was a "Model -this- Form -that-"
Model 4 switch machine, Model 7 form B CC Box, Model 2 Form A relay, Model 2 Form B List 25 modified line relay, Model 2 interlocker, Model 2 switch, its all good.
http://www.thejournalnews.com/newsroom/120103/a0101trainhit.html
I thought I had one some months ago at the following site...
http://www.ic.sunysb.edu/Stu/hyao/bdb/DSCN1750.jpg
Unfortunately the link is no longer good.
Does anyone know of another picture?
Here's a shot of R-33 9032:
Here's an odd one from another R-33:
The same can be said of the PRR's _Union_, a Chicago-Cincinnati/ Columbus train, which carried a lightweight 10/6 sleeper and (probably) lightweight coaches between Chicago and Norfolk in connection with the N&W, but was mostly heavyweight as regards its head-end cars.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
"Ladies and Gentlemen -- It's the holiday season and the trains will get very crowded over the next few weeks. Make sure you hold onto all your personal belongings and be alert for pick-pocketers. If you run into trouble, please get off the train at the next stop and dial 9-1-1 from the phone on the station platform. If you're traveling with children, please keep them close by."
Then he went on to repeat the announcement.
that's like letting logic escape.
VC Madman
I don't want to be bothered with any problems on my train. If something happens get off the train. Don't tell me because then I have to radio Control Center and the train might be held to wait for police. Then my C/R and I will not finish our shifts until much later.
Anyway, I rode through that area this afternoon and the switches are still in place. Of course whether they are operational is another story.
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
Good luck making it in.
Chuck Greene
Chuck feels like a homebrah, even tho he's a PA homebrah!
Self, a short commute down I-87 to 242-VCP then into 42-TSQ for S.
Recharging cam batteries as we type....
There was a surprise sheet of ice on New Jersey roads from Mercer County up to New York Tuesday morning. It took me 2 hours to go 3 miles on 295 (from mile 59 to mile 62). My usual 50 minute drive to work took 3 hours.
At least this storm is in the forcast. I also hope to make it to Hamilton Saturday morning.
I don't want to miss this golden opportunity!
Bundle up!
lol nevermind brah
John
Redbirds in the SNOW?!?!?!!!!!
8CD
VC Madman
VC Madman
#3 West End Jeff
I know that you can use Metrocard for the WTC to NJ PATH ride, but as of now you have to use PATH card to go to NYC.
My question is, do you know if the Unlimited (30 day) Metrocard will be accepted at the turnstiles?
If yes, I'll save a lot on my commute.
Any info is appreciated!
Craig
Robert
Using metrocard at PATH was interesting in that you insert the card into the front of the turnstile, and the card is returned at the top. I actually think this method of swiping is better....slightly more time consuming then the MTA turnstile swipes, but the card is guaranteed to read on the first swipe, which is not the case with MTA turnstiles!
I also don't think I saw any turnstiles at WTC PATH station where you could insert cash...but I did see special machines selling single ride Quick Cards....
The end turnstile on each side of the station (furthest from the stairs leading up) has one of the old "coins & bills" tower machines. There is a stainless steel box between it and the Cubic turnstile which conceals a PC being used as an adapter.
The closest you can get is to put $30 on the card. The 20% bonus will add $6.00 for a total of $36.00. The leftover $1.00 will drive some people nuts.
In putting both fares on the same card the 20% benefit bringing the cost of a subway ride down to $1.67 will be lost because as I mentioned above $20 of the $35 will go to the subway fare at full fare and the $15 will go to the PATH at full fare.
Also the discount gained by buying a PATH Quickcard at $24 would be lost as well.
When they install the new turnstiles at 33rd St and Pavonia/Newport I will stick to buying separate cards.
There WILL be a savings if both fares are paid for by the MetroCard under the current set up
The amount needed on a Metrocard to cover a week (5 days) of regular round trip travel on both systems would be $35 ($20 subway, $15 PATH) in actual amount deducted from the card ($3.50 each way per day).
You are getting $35 worth (with that pesky extra dollar left over to make $36) to cover 20 rides for $30. That comes out to $1.50 per ride for a total of $3.00 each way. You save $.50 each way or $1.00 a day over the deducted cost. You save on the subway but not on PATH.
Now if we can only figure out what to do with the left over dollar. You would have to refill 7 times @ $30 to cover one days trips.
My apologies to all.
http://www.boarshevik.com/metrocard.xls
I made that list after the fare hike to figure out how to deal with the sub-$2 amount I had left on the card without ever adding less than $2.
Of course I mean $10.
When I was a kid, our family lived on Schenectady Avenue and my mom could never spell it out so she always told people she lived on E. 47th Street and the mail always got there.
I guess this shows that Bay Parkway once upon a time was called 22nd Avenue. If you look at the map, it is obviously in the exact place 22nd Avenue should be. But I don't know if old timers ever referred to it as such.
Elementary, my dear Holmes. :)
The refrence to 22nd Avenue hasn't been entirely removed, either. Signs near the ends of each platform proudly bear both names.
Thas the facts.
Elais
Specifically, no. But the desire exists, given the awkward and bottlenecking terminal operations at 2nd Ave. The TA has other priorities at the moment.
Amen, brother. (Or sister)
Just don't call me Surely.
...or anything that sounds female for that matter. I'm tired of people on the phone calling me "ma'am!"
If, that is, the V really is extended. The main question is, does Church Ave have now, or will it have in the near future, the capacity to terminate both the V and G lines. If so, great, the limiting factor is rolling stock and money to pay extra wages. That last part looks like it might be a bit tough.
Church Ave currently does not. However a reconfiguration would allow the turning of enough trains to handle the V & G (20 TPH should cut it).
Unfortunately, the MTA's goal in the past was to avoid using state taxes and keep down the fare. The goal in the future will be to pay back the money borrowed and costs shifted to avoid using state taxes and keep down the fare.
One route could be turned at Church and a second at 18th Ave without any difficulty. However, there isn't enough demand for additional service through the Rutgers St tunnel to justify sending the V to Brooklyn.
Elais
Does that work for your newspaper?
Wow! What will they think of next.
October 1, 1901
It lasted from September 30 to late December, 1990.
The K-cars were used on the Newark run, which gave the a/c systems some good time to work and cool the cars down....and there were very few station stops where the doors were open to let out all that cooled air and make the units start working over again.
The web site host, Robert Schwandl rob@metroplanet.de faces an expensive court battle that he cannot afford and would probably lose in Germany. So he is looking for a new name for the web site and his publishing company. However as he says "another option is that somebody who has some experience in web publishing and FTP etc. takes metropla.net from me and registers it in the USA or somewhere far from the E.U".
New names must be available, should end with .com or .net, and suggest the subject, which is mass transit throughout the world. The word "transit" has unhappy associations with the Berlin Wall, but any other bright ideas would be appreciated.
how's about metrosucks.com? would they still sue?
oh crap, are we still allowed to say Metrocard? And what about the M in MTA?
Only if they have an URL containing the letters "metro" in that order. For availability one can check at www.register.com.
If this is really happening, they are just trying to bully metropla.net out of their domain name.
takes metropla.net from me and registers it in the USA or somewhere far from the E.U".
Arti
There is actually history and law to this. "sucks" websites are protected by the first amendment if they offer legitimate criticism of their target. This is one case (maybe the only case?) where using a trademarked name is not a trademark violation. See, for example, exxonsucks.com.
HOWEVER, THE SITE MUST BE TOTALLY NON-COMMERCIAL. NOT EVEN A BANNER AD TO HELP DEFRAY COSTS.
A PC magazine writes, that a lawyer said, that there is no reason for
this attack.
That's why Robert Schwandl was thinking of looking for someone with experience in web publishing who would be willing to register metropla.net in the USA or elsewhere. Failing that, think of another good name that has not already been taken.
The most notable one is where McDonald's has been trying to own the rights to the "Mc" in any and all advertising, merchandising etc.
Several restaurants in the country where the owners name happened to have "Mc" in it have been sued. In many cases McDonald's won.
I don't understand the problem here at all. .com, .net, and .org are generic domains, meaning that they are not country-specific. No one in any particular country has more right to one of these domains than anyone else.
There are many trademarks containing "Metro" plus it's a generic term. If an ICANN complaint is made against him, we can defend himself on the facts, and probably claim reverse domain hijacking as well.
mplanet.com
metro-planet.com
The word "metro" is far too general to be trademarked.
What really pisses me off, is that every time they release a new domain name (e.g. .biz), ostensibly to increase the number of domain names so that there are enough to go round, I get deluged by emails telling me that my own .co.uk domain name is not enough, and I have to register all the others to prevent cyber-squatting etc. etc. Ho hum, its all a scam to increase the money paid to the domain registers.
I suggest that in the spirit of compromise, Schwandl offers to place a banner ad on his home page for "Metro Group" (never heard of them), and points out to them that .net domain names are not intended for directly commercial activities.
If anybody wants to write an EMail to the METRO, here is a adress:
Steinberg@Metro.de
The lady is waiting for your posts!!!
Other changes caused by METRO AG:
nuernberg-metro.de -> cityverkehr.de
berlin-metro.de -> untergrundebahn.de
Metro...stupid jacka$$es
I don't see where metropla.net has to go to Court at all. The registrar for metropla.net is SCHLUND+PARTNER AG. Schlund subscribes to the Uniform Dispute Resolution Policy. This means that if Metro wants metropla.net they have to file a WIPO dispute for a .net domain. They have to prove that metropla.net (1) domain name is identical or confusingly similar to a trademark or service mark in which the complainant has rights [arguable: does anyone believe that they are going to metro group when they type in "metropla.net"?], (2) does not have a legitimate use for the domain name [they do], AND (3) domain name has been registered and is being used in bad faith. [this means you took in the domain name in the hopes of selling it to the complainant, or preventing them from having it--nonsense!]
The main issue is that they have to answer Metro's complaint--they can do that do letter or email.
HOWEVER, it look like that also have metroplanet.de. They might be vulnerable FOR THAT DOMAIN ONLY under German law.
The point is, that they have problems with the de-adresses.
So if you write a letter to them list only the de-adresses.
Dear David & everyMetrofan,
thanks for posting this good summary at nycsubway.org.
Once again I want to point out that this is not primarily a dispute about domain addresses but about using the term 'metro' for subway or U-Bahn here in Germany. I know that they don't have a right to claim it, neither here nor worldwide. But as I said before, we know more cases of people like me having lost the case for weird reasons, so I cannot take any chances. www.metropla.net is not really different from www.metroplanet.de as long as I'm the registrant of both and I live in this country, even if I registered it in another country, they still could go for me personally because in their opinion I'm violating their rights here in Germany. So forget about the legal issue, let's simply try to find an easy way out of this. Keeping www.metropla.net in the U.S. would mainly help to keep 1000s of links from other sites, but it could be a mirror site, too, William.
Mit freundlichen Gren
Best Wishes
Robert Schwandl
metroPlanet, Berlin
On the other hand if you, with your web site hosting experience, were willing to help or offer suggestions, I feel sure that Robert Schwandl would be very pleased to hear from you. If you are interested I encourage you contact Robert directly either via metroplanet yahoogroups or (better) e-mail him at rob@metroplanet.de. But you had better hurry while it's still possible!
Thanks very much, Paul. I am sure Robert will be pleased to hear from you, and you have already expressed some thoughtful opinions on this site. I don't fully understand the problem by any means either, and I lack your web hosting experience.
Some of these domain games really irritate me. I know of a case where a lady has a small but prominent art gallery, and she had a nice site named [hername]gallery.com. She inadvertently let the name lapse when she had a stroke, and not only was the name grabbed up by a dude overseas who is advertising the domain name for sale, but he took the net, org and biz versions as well, all for sale.
I mean, it's her own name, for Crissakes!
The newsgroup's website is at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/urbanrail/
Anyone can apply to join the newsgroup, and receive email messages (individual messages or a daily batch).
I recommend the site to anyone who wants information about urban rail systems world-wide.
The grant is part of the $20 billion appropriation signed by Bush in 2001 and promised to rebuild lower Manhattan. And that is what it is going for.
If you feel you didn't get any say in this, it's your own fault. Everybody got a chance to put in their two cents, and so did you and so did I.
Everyone except Stephen Baumann, of course. They are all out to get him. :0)
It will hinder future funding not replace funding already in progress. In 5 to 10 years, other localities will point to this billion and say that it should now be their turn. There will be merit to that argument.
Take it while you can get it.
I see two problems with the take any money and run approach in this case.
First, capital expenditures should try to fund themselves as much as possible through a combination of decreased operating costs and increased revenues (riders). These projects will do neither and may actually raise operating costs and decrease ridership.
Second, this infusion of money will overwhelm the planning process for projects that might actually pay for themselves. The few sane heads at the MTA/TA will be overwhelmed by this billion dollar binge.
Experience shows that the cities that have done the best in funding, like Chicago and Boston, keep up the pressure and BUILD the projects they're funding in a reasonable time.
To put it another way, if NY turns back this money, I highly doubt it will help other projects at all, it will just kill the ones already funded. And even if your assessment is correct, the die is cast on this one.
You're missing the point. In this case, the money is intended to restore and create facilities which will allow private enterprise to attract residents and workers back into lower Manhattan. It is a prerequisite for rebuilding the WTC and should be done now, while the site is mostly an open construction pit. The Fulton Transit Center will displace a few marginal businesses whose loss, overall, will be of no concern and whose owners will have been compensated anyway.
Remember your argument about rebuilding the IRT, that full advantage was not taken of its open status? Well, that argument applies here too.
The article confirmed the commitment for the lower Manhattan hub. We need to get started on it ASAP.
There is always need to stop and think, even in war.
Consider one consequence of the haste in restoring 1/9 service in the wake of 9/11. They took out the 1918 plans and essentially rebuilt the line as was, without any thinking. Their only modification was to install a full crossover south of Rector St instead of a trailing point switch.
Consider the opportunity lost. One oversight with the 1918 design is the lack of layover tracks. Placing 1 or 2 layover tracks within the vicinity of Cortlandt St would have been easy because the entire site was open. It might have taken a couple of months to modify the 1918 box design and thus slightly delayed the reopening.
Haste makes waste.
Could it be that any deviation beyond the original "box" might interfere with the site's eventual development? Note that the PATH station is right on the footprint of the original station and, in any event, is temporary.
There was a fairly early concensus that Greenwich Street would be remapped. That should have set off alarm bells that the IRT could break out of the box.
There I agree with you. A few more months and some changes could have been made (and the Rector street Station could havebeen rebuilt to ADA compliance).
Your other points are good.
However, the Fulton Street Transit Center and new PATH terminal are not products of haste. They are products of an extensive planning process. The Fulton terminal is well-cobceived and really should have been done 20 years ago. Better late than never.
Most of the area east of the 1/9 tracks, between Vesey and Liberty, is just as available for layover tracks now as it was in March 2002. There is no significant additional cost in doing such a project now.
Putting layover tracks west of the 1/9 would have been expensive then and would be expensive now - they'd be suspended 30 feet in the air over the PATH station.
I suspect the reason NYCT hasn't considered this project is that they don't think it's particularly useful.
It is one of the reasons touted by the TA for replacing the South Ferry loop with a 2-track terminal for $400 million.
The "working group" found ways to squander the money and recommended them to the Transportation Secretary Mineta.
Understood, but I don't see that most of it is being put to good use in the provision of better subway service.
The money authorized by Mineta yesterday was never intended to expand subway service. It is part of a $20 billion appropriation to rebuild lower Manhattan. If New York had decided to use it to build the Second Av Subway, or a new subway in Queens, the feds would have objected on the grounds that it is not related to 9/11's destruction of the WTC.
The new PATH terminal, the Fulton Street Transit Center and the South Ferry Terminal are all acceptable projects because they are directly related to 9/11. The IRT line was damaged in the attack, and the reconstruction of any of its elements is considered fair game by the federal government. The pot of money it comes from cannot be used outside of this area. Period.
I sympathize with your viewpoint to some degree but the appropriation we are talking about in this thread could not be used to pay for the projects that you want.
South Ferry was NOT damaged on 9/11 - it does not NEED to be reconstructed. I'll give you lengthening the platform, but it does not need to be an island platform with two tracks ending in bumping blocks and a crossover some 300 feet out from the end of the platform. If I get the chance later, I'll post about last night's meeting.
That is not the consensus of most subway passengers, their elected officials, or within the MTA. It is the consensus of a few railbuffs.
"I'll give you lengthening the platform, but it does not need to be an island platform with two tracks ending in bumping blocks and a crossover some 300 feet out from the end of the platform."
OK. In which case you went to the meeting (good for you!) and told the MTA there was a better way to improve the station than the option they want to pursue.
For those unfamiliar with the area, the original exit from the South Ferry station was in the middle of the platform and exits to street level within the footprint of the new Terminal Building. If you look at the link above, this would be just above the black "point" within the Terminal footprint. The current "temporary" exit is in almost the same position as the #1 exit from the proposed station. (so much for being closer - at the most, we're talking 10 to 15 feet difference). For the sake of completeness, the current entrance to Whitehall station is midway between the blue circled 1 and the south end of the N/R platform on the Plaza side of Whitehall St.
While I was looking at the boards, Councilman Michael McMahon (D-North Shore) arrived with two of his people. After handshakes with those they knew, they began examining the boards and were unable to pick out the one they were favoring. Seizing the opportunity, I introduced myself as a resident of his district (true) and a NYCT Train Operator that had formerly worked on the 1/9 (true) that had serious doubts about the feasibility of the 'favored' proposal (also true). I showed him the 'favored' proposal and explained my reasons for disliking it - the crossover switch 300' or so beyond the end of the station (as opposed to right outside the station limits) and its concomitant Rule Book speed limit of 10 mph (no faster than the current approach to South Ferry); the lack of tail tracks beyond the south end of the station, which will necessitate timers in the station, slowing down the approach even more; and, the fact that there is no terminal set up in this manner that sees more TPH than the current South Ferry station sees, which implies that the new station would see a service decrease.
I then showed him my preference - extending the current station to the rear and explained why I liked this one - it maintains the connection between East and West side IRT routes; no time spent waiting for another train to get out of the way; and the fact that of the two other terminals that see a higher TPH, one is a loop and the other has approx. 600' of tail track (FWIW, the other thru-station with gap fillers also sees a higher TPH than South Ferry, so gap fillers mustn't take to long to work). While we were talking, we were joined by Congressman Vito Fossella (R-SI), who asked for a repeat of prior statements.
When the meeting proper commenced, Messers. Sussman and Wheeler from the MTA ran through the talking points about the new station, with the boards being shown on a projector screen (the Windows notebook running it crashed twice). They even ran the video (which can be found at the planning site) of a 1 train entering South Ferry. In order to prove the point of how slow it is, they paused the video twice. the floor was then opened to the speakers.
Vito Fossella - Congratulated everyone on getting the money; applauded plan; questioned the possibility of returning 5 service to South Ferry, using the current 1/9 platform once they have left for the new station.
Michael McMahon - Repeat performance of Mr Fossella; did question time lost by crossing trains (he was listening). {opinion}I'm not sure he is fully behind this, but probably sees it as better than no improvement at all. {/opinion}
Borough Pres. Molinaro - More congrats and 'about time's. Alas, he reminds me to much of some of my family members - I can't understand half of what he says.
A rep from State Senator Lachman with a prepared statement.
Mr X - This guy gets his jollies from hounding Mr. Sussman at these meetings. Tonight, though, he actually put forth the proposition of extending the 1 to Staten Island and then on into Brooklyn. It's the first time in years that he's come up with an idea.
Ferry Rider's Committee - Wanted to know how this was going to fit into the new Ferry Terminal, the design for which took into account the location of the 'original' exit from South Ferry. Was afraid that this new station exit would be an after-thought in an already designed area.
An unaffiliated man who raised some of the same points that have been raised on SubTalk - loops are better as terminals, crossovers need to be close to the station, loading statistics, etc.
Yours truly - Basically gave the same spiel that McMahon and Fossella already heard. Did mention that rush-hour 5 service doesn't terminate at Bowling Green and so was unlikely to be sent to South Ferry when it would most be needed. Also questioned the idea of 5 using the the current 1 platform - if it's no good for us now with the 1, why would it be OK for the 5? While I was speaking, Mr Sussman was busy writing, while his eyes were popping out of his head - I don't think he actually expected facts and quotes on Operating Procedures.
Newkirk Plaza David - Went on about signs and bad wording thereof, but nothing constructive to say about the topic at hand.
------- End of Meeting Report ------
These articles are from today's news:
http://www.silive.com/search/index.ssf?/base/news/107054921941840.xml
Under the plan, South Ferry's current single-track, five-car subway terminal will be expanded into a three-track, two-platform terminal capable of accommodating a 10-car, full-length train.
The MTA is reviewing a request by Fossella to restore passenger service from South Ferry to the nearby Bowling Green subway station, the current terminus of the Lexington Avenue subway lines, also heavily used by Island commuters in Manhattan.
Some city officials initially opposed including South Ferry in the repair project, arguing it was not directly related to Sept. 11 and that all federal transit aid should be reserved for repairing the damage caused by the terrorist attack.
http://www.silive.com/search/index.ssf?/base/news/107054923041840.xml
Rather than the "sharp curvature [that] slows train operation and generates excessive noise" and the "required mechanical gapfillers prone to breakdowns" on the edge of the platform, the new terminal would be a straight, single platform, serving two tracks with three entrances and handicap accessibility. The existing loop track will be retained for storage purposes.
The renovated South Ferry station would have underground access for riders to the N/R subway line and would permit an additional five subway trains to pass through per hour, decreasing commuters' travel time and making the station more efficient, said Wheeler.
http://www.dot.gov/affairs/fta5103.htm
* A $400 million grant for the South Ferry Subway Terminalreplacement of the functionally obsolete station adjacent to and under Battery Park. The project will transform the single track, five-car station that serves the 1 and 9 subway lines with a three-track, 10-car, stub end two-platform terminal, and will be located immediately adjacent to renovated Staten Island ferry.
Amazing, how overnight the new station has grown a second platform and a third track? Or will NYCT build one thing with funds granted for something else?
ROFL
You accomplished something here. How much of that will translate into changes in the plan? I don't know. But look who's ear you caught.
Sussman was taking careful notes. What you (and others) said will be reviewed.
Good job!
It would appear that the Feds agreed to fund a 3-track 2-platform terminal. The TA says it wants to build a 2-track 1-platform terminal and has presented this only this option on its website. My guess is that the TA will bow to the overwhelming weight of $400 million in hand and switch plans quicker than a fast talker can say "thank you".
How did the Feds get the idea of a 3-track 2-platform terminal? Did they think it up? Did the TA tell them that is what they wanted and tell the public something else? What's the point of trying to evaluate a plan (more of a concept on the MTA website), if the whole thing was a bait and switch sham from the beginning?
Sussman was taking careful notes. What you (and others) said will be reviewed.
A major problem with these public meetings is that the project's technical staff is not present. They are insulated by non-technical "community outreach" people like Mr. Sussman, who try to act as impeadance transformers. This presents two problems.
First, the public is denied first hand reasons behind design decisions, that only the technical people can answer. This makes such meetings far less informative and useful. It also eliminates the possibility of a more collegial, private exchange of ideas. The only way to get information is through the "community outreach" gatekeepers through a formal statement, which is a far more adversarial atmosphere.
Second, the project's technical staff is equally isolated from what the public wants. Technical decisions are based on juggling many options and weighing many priorities. Subjecting the technical staff to a half dozen public meetings, even if they are only lurkers, should give them a better handle on which priorities are really important.
Fair enough. I agree. However, do not underestimate what Sussman is able to do. For one thing, we don't know his educational background. For another, his correspondence to me conveys a sense that he does understand the issues fairly well, pays attention to what he hears and strives to return an intelligent answer to a question. And he and I have corresponded for a long time.
My comments were not directed towards Mr. Sussman personally, but rather to the limitations of "community relations". I would omit the words "like Mr. Sussman" to make that clearer in my previous post.
Trying to get information via the "community relations" route is like trying to carry out a substantive conversation through a non-simultaneous translator. It's time consuming and frustrating for all parties. Clearly, there is a need for a gatekeeping function but a rare public meeting should not be one.
I agree with your logic here.
Thanks also for your excellent reporting.
The new South Ferry Terminal will be built with sufficient overrun track south of the platform to allow trains to safely enter at higher speeds.
The crossover tracks north of the station will utilize state-of-the-art switching technology
The overall design of the station will provide capacity for up to 24 trains per hour.
Of course, they can claim anything they want on a poster.
Meaning that they have addressed the issue of the stub terminal.
"Of course, they can claim anything they want on a poster."
And if the overrun track is in the design, their 24 train per hour claim is very reasonable. So long as they build it this way, 24 trains per hour is what you'll get.
The TA knows how to build terminals with overrun (tail) tracks that have only half the claimed 24 tph capacity. Parsons Jamaica Center being the example.
Meaning that they have addressed the issue of the stub terminal.
"Of course, they can claim anything they want on a poster."
And if the overrun track is in the design, their 24 train per hour claim is very reasonable. So long as they build it this way, 24 trains per hour is what you'll get.
However, the South Ferry station has handled 28 trains per hour in the past.
It looks like the proposal for South Ferry will have a capacity of about 12 tph. That would force a 40% reduction in (maximal) rush hour service, on a line that until recently ran 12 tph on weekends (it's been since bumped down to 10 tph). Remind me to either move out of the neighborhood or arrange to never have to travel by the time this happens, since I won't be able to fit on the trains around here.
Nobody has ever answered: even if it's 12 tph (which I personally doubt), why can't they run 12 tph into the stub terminal and 12 tph around the loop, skipping S Ferry?
At least in theory (I don't know if it's actually carried out), terminating 5 trains are fumigated at Bowling Green. City Hall is a special case.
How many tph do you think it should support?
N Broadway
But you have some good thoughts there.
Why should New York now ask for LESS from the federal government (or the state, for that matter)? It's just a matter of being as brassy as always, and making sure the MTA returns to the NYC population in proportion to our taxes, Fulton St or no Fulton St. We should not act as if our "quota" was used up by a two tourist-centered subway stations.
See the problem? Even if this is a true gift, undoing the damage is a major expense. Most likely, 1/9 riders will be left to suffer with their service reductions for the rest of eternity.
The question then set up a situation where a train has been outside for five stations; what should the t/o do?
I don't recall what choices A and C were, but I believe that choice B was "turn off the lights" and choice D was "operate the momentary switch to turn off the lights".
The answer key shows that choice A is correct.
Can anyone remember what choice A was, and more fully explain the question and the intended answer?
(This was one of two that I got wrong, but I remember feeling unsure about this one as I took the test. I reread it several times, but still didn't quite get it.)
http://www.panynj.gov/airtrain/jfk_broch1.html
I presume this assumes that you time your arrival at Jamaica to catch a Ronkonkoma train.
Oh well. Thats another train to ride the next time that I come to the city.
But it lloks like fares are only collected at Jamaica and Howard Beach, regardless of which way you pass through the turnstyle.
I'll bet you'll pay to get on at Jamaica and Off at Howard Beach, if you tried to use the train for that purpose.
Elias
That is the plan. But with that $40 monthly pass it'll be quite valuable. How long does it take now to get from Howard Beach to Jamaica via mass transit? This will make it a 26 minute ride with one transfer.
CG
It is not clear whether the Q10 and other bus lines will continue to serve all the terminals or if they will just stop at either Federal Circle or the Lefferts Blvd station (where there will apparently be a passenger drop off area as well).
CG
In fact, the Q10 generally runs more frequently than the shuttle ever did and -- from my observation only -- is a higher quality and cleaner vehicle. "A" service from Howard Beach or Lefferts is at the same interval during most parts of the day.
CG
CG
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
Aren't both airports run by the PA? Am I missing something?
It's cheaper to get a ticket from Penn to North Elizabeth and get off at the airport station, then buy a $5 mono-d'oh pass in the station.
I was referring more to the inconsistent means accepted of payment at what appears to be similarly situated venues (ie PA-owned Airports).
Additionally, there is incentive to use JFK over EWR when considering how to arrive at the Airtrain (ie off-peak discounts on LIRR vs. surcharges on NJT out of NYP).
My underlying point being that I would have thought there be more equality within the Airport systems themselves and, in addition, the systems used to get to the Airport, while not expected to be equal in the absolute (as I recognize they are separately maintain systems), may cause a knowledgable traveler to consider one option (JFK) more favorable over another (EWR).
Just another tourist/busniessman tax as I see it? However, it affects regular NY'ers just the same.
1) said route always runs express.
2) but if something affects the (W) at Onion Square, then ought not the (RR) or the (Q) and (N) trains also be affected.
Or has WCBS have no clue when Todd is not around.
Elias
Then why wasn't the (RR) skipping 49th Street.
Could be a break in the cross over.
But then why announce it at Onion Square instead of at Times Square?
Elias
David
Chuck Greene
Since I am in North Dakota, and wasnt planing on visiting NYC this weekend, I'll not call the number for you. My guess is unless the lines are swamped Friday Evening, they will find out about Saturday Morning on Saturday Morning.
We have some light snow now, with about three inches expected in some parts of the state today, but clearing on the weekend, which is good, because we have our big open house on Saturday.
Thanks to C-Division for keeping me on the MOD mailing list. I will make another ride when all of the planets and R-9s come into proper conjunction.
Elias
Elias, that is called the Branford eclipse. LOL
--Mark
Also: Someone said that if you put your finger in the crack between the doors on an R142/143, you'd get pinched when the doors opened. How?
That distinct click is the sound of the doors locking. Other trains have different types of locks.
"Also: Someone said that if you put your finger in the crack between the doors on an R142/143, you'd get pinched when the doors opened. How?"
Before the doors open the lock has to disengage. The doors have to move forward for this to happen. I have had my fingers pinched a number of times because I keep forgetting about this.
I don't really know - maybe it is an indication of masochistic tendencies???
"Doctor, it hurts every time I do *this*."
"Well, then, stop doing that."
Mark
1. "The Grand Tour": Covering every IRT ML station and route.
2. 7 only: covering only the IRT Flushing/Queensboro division only. Includes layover and tour of Corona.
3. BMT Southern Division
4. BMT Eastern Division
This HAS been done, and probably STILL CAN BE ARRANGED, I do not know what prices you have in mind, but think in excess of $2000 (for a private car on scheduled train) to 20-50,000 for a redbird excursion train.
Elias
I was on the ERA charter last December and the MOD trips are basically charters.
While these are non-profit organizations, I don't know if the TA can or would charter to a private individual or a profit making company to run trains through the system.
Also when speaking to an ERA official last year, he said that the TA was quoting a price of $ 11,000 for the ERA Redbird trip. While the final number may have been lower, its still pretty pricey for a birthday party or another celebration. Might be a good revenue raiser but its only for the rich.
--Mark
I don't understand why they're charging so much. Technically all you should have to pay is a few for the rental of the car, and maybe a compensation fee for the service. MAYBE the day's salary for the train crew. There's no way that adds up to thousands of $$$$, unless there really is THAT MUCH demand for rentals.
Insurance? Bull. Regular subway riders don't pay insurance.
If I recall correctly, MTA is self-insured. However, a charter trip with out of service or antique equipment might imply a slightly higher risk (???) and justify collecting an additional premium from customers.
Does anyone know how riders on MOD museum trips are covered should there be a collision or other problem, causing injuries, during the trip? Does the MOD have to put up a bond or does the TA provide its own coverage?
full R36 train: $1000 1st hour, $500 per subsequent hour
R33 Single (one car only): $500 first hour, $275 per subsequent hour
Prices including up to 10 guests, food and beverages. Each additional guest $60, under 17 $30.
Andy
Other comments range from pathetic current terminal, a minute delay results in 20 minute to 1 hour loss of time due to the missed ferry connection, to the East side is off limits to Staten Islanders and want the #5 line to be included in the terminal. But you cant have you cake and eat it too. When I was the last speaker for the evening, I gave my usual points to Mr. Sussman and company about the poster that Mr. X mentioned earlier, why have incorrect travel directions, but not until I was on the S79 bus over the Verrazano-Narrows Bridge, heading towards Brooklyn, did I realize that I missed a golden opportunity to challenge the MTA on money wasted to replace a never, ever to be used escalator at Bowling Green station. Still the hearing was a feel good thing for me that as long as the MTA does not squander on the their share of the Federal money earmarked for Lower Manhattan; the SF project, as well as the Fulton St complex, will be a reality in 2007.
That's great. Thank you very much for getting involved.
Was anything at all presented by MTA regarding station capacity and crossovers? I'm glad that that issue was mentioned by speakers. Was there any response?
But the press was taking notes on my allegations too, and local Staten Island media was there too.
And you can alwayus follow up with a letter.
I used only 2 minutes out of 3 during Community Board 9's meeting on AirTrain when the project was up for consideration. I did that on purpose, because other speakers preceding me were going beyond 3 minutes consistently and the audience was getting annoyed. But what I said completely wrecked the airlines' presentation and their lobbyist came up to me outside the hearing room, yelled at me at the top of his voice and wanted desperately to slug me.
NY POL SLUGS DOCTOR AT AIRTRAIN HEARING.
It's a good thing you survived it.
The board vote to approve AirTrain was lopsided. It wasn't even close.
Bob Diamond's trolley project could have helped.
http://www.panynj.gov/airtrain/AIRT-0117_JFK.pdf
Of interest.
There will be three "branches".
1) Jamaica - counter clockwise around the terminal loop - Jamaica
2) Howard Beach - counter clockwise - Howard Beach
3) clockwise around the loop.
I think this is similar to San Francisco's new airport train.
Length of trip from Jamaica or Howard Beach to Terminal 1 -- 8 minutes.
CG
Go there for discussion:
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=615124
Also, the map shows a strange 'loop' that the East Side IRT trains supposedly run on at Hoyt St, instead of the earlier [printed] version I have, which used a half-black-dot, consistant with the rest of the Brooklyn IRT. I wish the MTA would just settle on a single method for showing these things. A half-dot is much better than drawing strange loop-de-loops all over the place.
The M runs much later than until just 5:45.
Could the fare be reduced if local stations were built on the line? This way, the fare hit could be distributed among a number of stations and people living in Jamaica and points south who don't have rapid transit service would now have a rail link to the LIRR and the J/Z/E trains, and the F train too if they want to walk up to Hillside Avenue.
CG
It had nothing to do with that. It was strictly a price tag issue, nothing more.
I agree that communities like East Elmhurst need and want more subway service, but that's a separate issue.
It is possible that MTA could give the PA money to build an intermediate station for AirTrain on the Jamaica leg, but that would have to pass muster first with the MTA and PA legal departments, who would no doubt check with the FAA's counsel to see if the FAA would oppose it.
I wonder if the idea that there is no direct service is what lets them get under the radar screen of not providing transit services.
CG
Rockaway Boulevard, OTOH -- with twice as much A service.
Or Euclid, with the C as well.
The city sold the PA the VanWyck median for inclusion within the airport, as part of the AirTrain deal. Any station on VanWyck would be within the airport boundaries.
I don't know those areas well enough, though, to say whether they aren't already filled with JFK employees.
CG
Does this map partially answer your question?
The map does not answer the question posed.
With a station, higher income airport employees might be drawn to live there by an easier commute. The question then becomes -- would they? One interesting note is that I don't think that the Van Wyck lies underneath any of the approach or take-off patterns for JFK -- so airplane noise might not be as much of a hindrance to improving the neighborhood as one would other wise think.
On this subject, I don't have enough knowledge to do anything other than speculate, though. (Hold your tongue Bayside Boy. Zip it.)
CG
Kennedy Airport has active runways serving the following headings: 310-130 (2 parallel runwaysat either end of the airport) and one runway at 220-040. There is another runway, but I don't recall its orientation. Usually one runway is designated for landing, and its parallel twin for takeoffs. Landings involve engines at idling or a low setting, so noise is not a major factor; obviously the takeoff pattern is the major factor.
If takeoffs are to the northwest, using the 310 heading,, Ozone Park and Jamaica can be impacted. If to the Southeast, Jamaica Bay gets the noise.
(Hold your tongue Bayside Boy. Zip it.)
Zip itty zooda, zppideday...
Kew Gardens traditionally has been home to a large number of airline employees. I don't know about JFK ground employees, but somehow the area along the Van Wyck seems a bit downscale to attract any but those in the lowest-paid categories.
In case anyone's interested, there's a rather amusing Newark-vs.-JFK thread now in progress at Airliners.net. It has rapidly turned into a New York-vs.-New Jersey flame war, or something close to it.
I think not. There is much more to revitalizing a neighborhood than giving it some better transportation. Mostly in needs new housing stock. Nobody who can afford better is going to buy (or rent) a run down wood fram house built at the beginning of the last century.
This neighborhood *does* have an advantage that few of the buildings are of the "old-law" style tennament buildings. All of the properties there seem to me (if I am thinking of them correctly) are within the purchase means of middle class people, who could knock them down and build something decent on the land.
Elias
AirTrain cannot be marketed toward local traffic because it's being funded through fees paid by air travelers. There's no choice or intent involved.
As far as the "Van Wyck Subway" is concerned, it was never a serious proposal even during the heyday of planning back in the 1960's.
This southeast turnout is visible in Map Quest aerial photos of Woodhaven Junction. It looks difficult to access now, as it seems to be a parking lot for NYC school buses. There are images of Woodhaven Junction on both Kevin Walsh's Forgotten NY and Tom Scannello's sites.
See also Bob Andersen's and Art Huneke's LIRR sites :
www.rapidtransit.net/index.html
Then click on "links" at upper right, and enjoy !
See also Joe Brennan's "abandoned stations" site.
Does anyone know when OZONE tower which was south of the Woodhaven Station on the Rockaway branch was torn down?
The underground station is not visable from the side walk. On the sidewalk are emergency exits to the platform. The original stairways to the platforms were long since sealed off.
This is a photo of Woodhaven Station from the book:
Compare that to my photos I took about 10 years ago:
What fate did it get? Except for the few stations north of Liberty Avenue that didn't get enough usage in it's later years plus one station South of Liberty (The Raunt) it was completely revitalized by the "A" Train. I am sure ridership increased as a subway, train frequency also increased, while fares went down. Although I'm not positive I'm sure the bulk of the ridership was in the Rockaways, and not the discontinued part. The bridge destroyed by fire was rebuilt by the city. As far as I'm concerned the fate the Rockaway Branch experienced was positive to say the least.
For those who might want to see it this way:
The NYPL call # for it is IRH 95-975.
You also need to have a NYPL Access card to do this, I beleive it requires that you live, work, go to school, or own property in New York.
Sort of unfair. From what I gather, Access Cards are not ordinary library cards, but are used to get access to noncirculating research materials. Some of these materials might not be located anywhere except in the NYPL. Requiring New York residency can cut off access for researchers who happen to live elsewhere ... unless, of course, the NYPL operates under the same assumption as the New York Times, namely that anyone who lives outside the city is a three-toothed hillbilly with a gun rack in his pickup and married to his 13-year-old cousin.
Back on topic about the book: Thats the only place I know of that has the book. I didn't see any Nassau County Library(East Meadow in particular, since I live there) have a copy of it, and usually you can find anything somewhere in Nassau County.
It took about 25 minutes for them to find the book, but it's definatly worth it, as the only cost your going to have is the cost to get there, as the access card and using the book is free.
thought i would pass this along
lot of fun
paul
p.s. look at things like google(beta)
web.archive.org
Isn't it weird?
No B train at Pacific St.
IMO, very minor quibbles. This is a track map, not a route map.
Next stop on the Sea Beach, Coney Island. OOOOOOOOPPPPPPPPSSSSSS!!!!
Ok, not yet.
This lead me to a thought.
Some years ago, reports came that said that the doors would act like elevator doors. But obviously, this is not the case.
Then again, there are elevators whose doors won't re-open even if you stick your whole body in the path of the doors.
It's the elevator at the 61st Street-Woodside station, which connects the subway mezzanine, the street, and Platform A of the LIRR's Woodside station.
Shouldn't the sensors work like most elevators do; when you put something in the doors' path, the doors would open, even when the doors are nowhere near such obstruction?
Those are optical sensors. The sensors in the subway cars are in the rubber gaskets on the doors meaning they have to come in contact with the object before they will reopen.
In the former case, optical obstruction detection is required
by NYC elevator code. TA elevators may actually be exempt from
the code, but this sounds like a defect that should be reported
to the appropriate structures department whose phone number
is posted on the elevator control room. OTOH, elevators are
permitted to have a "nudge" mode where, if an obstruction is
sensed continuously for more than 30 seconds, the elevator
concludes that the sensor is defective and closes the doors.
What does this woman need? A hammer to hit her on the head when she darts in total disregard for her safety?
:0)
Her lawyer will probably allege that the safety procedures in place (bells, crossing gates, presumably honking trains) were inadequate to protect the woman.
What do you think went through the engineer's mind when he saw her?
"Where's the compassion for the girl."
The article says she escaped with basically a few scratches and maybe a broken leg. She's lucky to be alive, and she's in one piece.
"nuff said.
That was pretty nasty, even for a joke...
She's so ugly, they won't let her travel to London because her face would stop Big Ben.
Seriously, though, I still can't figure out the big flap a couple of years ago when Rosie admitted that she chewed the carpet. Christ, how could anyone not have figured it out long before then??
VC Madman
VC Madman
You are correct. Keep in mind she was only 39 years old. Only a child.
Somehow I don't think that would make any difference... there obviously isn't anything in that bump on her shoulders that would be affected :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Unfortunately, the cops will probably have pity on her and not trouble her with one.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/longisland/ny-litres043569863dec04,0,3180290.story?coll=ny-linews-headlines
Of course, she's not going to sit down and write one, is she?
:0)
The LIRR should have made their crossing gates ADA compliant.
Not with the "frequent" headways on the Ronkonkoma Line.
Bill "Newkirk"
She STOPped, and then walked across while LOOKing at a supermarket tabloid and LISTENing to her Walkman.
Thanks,
Julian
How soon we forget
Before:
Set A: 01-02-03-04-05 (5 cars)
Set B: 06-07-08-09-10 (5 cars)
Set C: 11-12-13-14-15 (5 cars)
During (1):
Set A: 01-02-03-04 05 (4+1 cars)
Set B: 06-07-08 09-10 (3+2 cars)
During (2):
Set A: 01-02-03-04 09-10 (4+2 cars)
Set B: 06-07-08 05 (3+1 cars)
After:
Set A: 01-02-03-04-09-10 (6 cars)
Set B: 06-07-08-05 (4 cars)
Then, to make an 11-car train, just add another 5-car set.
Sets A & C: 01-02-03-04-09-10+11-12-13-14-15 (11 cars)
Connections: +: coulper -: link bar.
They just leave the 4-car set sitting in the yard while the 6-car set goes on the road.
Or they could use it on the BG-SF shuttle, or any of the other short IRT shuttles in the system.
Personally, I think the (7) could use 22-car sets.
But that's just me. ;-)
But why don't you want the R142s on the 7? Wouldn't you want to record all those snazzy announcements or are you just afraid of Queens or afraid that someone is going to throw your backpack off the train?
The (1)/(9)!
Since the R142s seem to not be vandal resistant, and the (1) train is one of the most vandalised lines in the system...
You see the connection.
Julian
P.S.
I've seen people doing scratchitti on the (1) in BROAD DAYLIGHT, in THE CONDUCTOR'S CAR! Not little scratchitti, BIG scratchitti. It really pissed me off. They were using keys to scratch the walls, and a razor to scratch the windows.
You witnessed people vandalizing the trains?
In the conductor's car?
AND YOU DIDN'T REPORT THEM TO THE CONDUCTOR?????????????
In this pic, why is the straight air and brake pipe reading the same pressure? Is this train undergoing testing? What would cause this?
Maybe the Brake Cylinder is cut-out.
They're not. The red needle is showing a little more than 30 pounds, while the black one is showing a little less than 30 pounds.
As for the reason they're like that, I'm not sure.
Hint: The train is completely in the station and its doors are open.
If not, then it's defintely on the Broadway BMT.
Peace,
ANDEE
So Jareid, you have to stay out of the Broadway line because I am 2 for 2 now. The Mick needed 54 more. Very nice pictures.
No, actually the slants run up and down the whole line. Nut just at Canal Street.
: )
Not any more, now that the redbirds are retired.
What a Drag
Posted on:12/4/03 4:15:09 PM
Due to police activity at 135th Street, northbound B and C trains are running express from 59th Street to 145th Street.
10:40 a.m.: leave GCS line and proceed via the Lex line to Livonia Yard.
Via the Lex line to 138/3rd, then via Track M to 177th Street and lunch.
After lunch, continue north to Westchester Yard.
Loop the yard and continue north via Track 3 to Pelham Bay Park.
South via Track M to 138/3rd, then via Lex to 86th Street, and turn.
Proceed north to Dyre Avenue (note: if GO 1007-03 is NOT working, the train MAY operate via Track Y-3 in both directions).
South via Lex line to Brooklyn Bridge, via loop to Track 4, and end.
On Westchester Ave heading towards Castle Hill: McDonalds, KFC, Baskin Robbins/Dunkin Donuts, Dominos Pizza.
Walk up Metropolitan Ave, towards oval: Burger King, Macy's for shopping only, other places
Take the 6 train one stop to Castle Hill Ave for Wendy's and another McDonalds. Continue of 6 to Westchester Square for White Castle across East Tremont.
10:40 a.m.: leave GCS line and proceed via the Lex line to Flatbush Avenue.
Via 7th Avenue line to 14th Street and turn.
Proceed to South Ferry and loop north to 242nd Street and lunch.
Train lays up in 240th Yard or south of 242nd Street.
Via Track M to south of 103rd Street, then into 96th Street and turn.
North to 148th Street Yard Drill Track.
Proceed to 135th Street and turn.
Proceed north to 149/GC and turn.
Proceed south to 138/GC and turn.
Proceed north to Woodlawn.
Proceed via Track M from south of Woodlawn to south of 138/GC.
Via the Lex line to Brooklyn Bridge, loop to Track 4, and end.
Snow fears Tuna......... brah.
HO-HO-HO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Gettin' my $40 worth *RIGHT* there....
This will be my first MOD appearance, btw.
Being that I was introduced to the subways when the r26/28/29
were Redbirds on the 1, this will be a VERY sentimental trip
back in time 4 meh...
So, I'm more interested in the overall picture.. the stations, the surroundings,.. not JUST the window!!
Cheers & you can have the window hands-down!
Does this mean the whole myth of "No Redbirds north of 103st
because of low clearance overhead" was all just a chewbaca pack of gagga?
WHEN was the last time a Redbird was *AT* 242-VCP, anyhow??
That's unlikely to be it though, Occam's Razor applies.
The Linden Shop connection is another possibility, even less likely.
All just outside station opposite the Madman's park (tee hee MDT): Burger King, Subway, Baskin Robbins/Dunkin Donuts, a pizzeria and a couple of Chinese restaurants.
It got hungry and ate it for unch :)
If you are going, enjoy.
On the BMT trips after the holidays, I may not be able to make it this Sunday. I am thinking about Saturday.
Mapwrap
In the article there is only this brief mention of Mapwrap:
"Mapwrap"(http://forestsaver.com), made from surplus New York City subway maps-let your package be your guide-can be found at House of Cards."
That sounds like a good idea...
--Mark
See Rich Galianos weather page for his experiences with the NOAA predicting ocean storms. If the evening shift doesnt change what the afternoon guy predicted, its going to be horrible!
Big question though for the extended forecast is where the high in Canada goes as the lows move out. If it stands firm, most of the action will be Jersey shore and south ... but if it moves, well then. Could be real - that's what I meant - that's the missing piece at the moment ... meanwhile, I'll be raising a beer at the "millibar." Heh.
(emphasis on "while work is IN session")
The streetcars and trolleys ran on the upper level after the bridge opened in 1909 (Dec 31).
At the lower ends of the approach spans, the vertical clearance drops and the platforms do not fit, so there will always be about 6 weekends of GO's on each side of the bridge every two years during the biennial inspections.
I'm new to the message board, and I'm hoping to pick the brains of some of the subway experts on here. I was wondering if anyone remembers a piece of "animated" artwork that (I think) was in the subway tunnel between DeKalb Avenue and the Manhattan Bridge on the B line. It was there when I first moved to NYC back in the early 1980s, but you can't see it anymore. It operated using the same idea as a flip book or a zoetrope--a series of individual, backlit panels with simple colored designs on them that became "animated" as the train cars moved past them, appearing in the breaks in the subway tunnel's walls. Does this sound familiar to anyone out there? I used to see it when I was standing up on the ride into Manhattan in the mornings, out of the right-hand-side windows. Then they did some renovations in the tunnels and I couldn't see it anymore.
I've done quite a few searches on the web looking for any mention of it, with no luck. If anyone remembers this artwork, I'd appreciate it if you would let me know what you remember about it (like an artist's name or the name of the artwork itself), if you've seen it mentioned on any other web sites, or if you've ever seen photos of it anyplace. Any help you could give me would be greatly appreciated, since it drives me crazy when I can't find stuff on the web...I figure *everything* is out there somewhere if you just know how to phrase your search correctly, but I'm at my wit's end on this one. Thanks in advance for your help with this!
Joe Brennan's page on the Myrtle Avenue station
Masstransiscope
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There was a thread here about a year ago. If you plow through it you'll find some references to other "masstransiscopic" installations as well as the unlikelihood of the MTA revitalizing it.
Myrtle Ave
You can click on the scrolling link
The QUERTY keyboard format continued into the computer age, and some people continue the older way of typing "1" using either method above.
In 1874, Christopher Latham Sholes invented the first commercial typewriter. It was in the then-unknown QWERTY format, It had no 1 key, and no SHIFT key. It could only type upper-case letters. Later on, the SHIFT key came into use, and later still, the 1 key came into play. I don't have an exact year when the 1 key became commercially available, but I do know that it wasn't for a while. I remember in high school (back in 1995) I was in a typing class which used these old Tandy computers, and the books we used contained such keystroke sequences as ['][bksp][.] to get "!" and type "l" for "1," so it's been a Looooooooooooooooooooooooooong time.
Interesting typewriter tidbit: the word "typewriter" is spelled using only letters in the QWERTY row of the keyboard.
All this computer hacking is making me thirsty, maybe I'll just order a TAB.
My nominations:
SEPTA: Villanova and Stadium stations on the 100
11th and 13th st on the MFSE [caveat: the eastbound platform
at 13th st was extended almost to 12th st in the 70's]
WMATA : Gallery Place and Metro Center on the Red Line. I think is
only a 8 car train length between stations.
CTA : I have no idea, but I think some of the Loop's stations are
close together.
According to me, the four "free bridges" should be closed to automobiles (so they would *have* to use the tunnels, and would have to pay rather steep rush hour tolls.)
The Brooklyn Bridge I would make exclusively Bus, LRV and Pedesterian.
The Manhattan and Williamsburg would be Taxi and Bus only during rush hours, and available for trucks at other hours.
The Queensboro would get LRV lanes and would be bus and truck traffic only.
The Lincoln Tunnel presents another interesting issue. I would make all 6 lanes inbound only, and exclusively for the use of busses in the morning rush, say from 0500 to 1000 hours. Make it exclusively outbound from 1600 to 2100 hours. Close 9th, 10th and 11th avenues between the tunnel and the PABT during these hours as well.
Elias
My scenerio posits that the LRVs would be free. They would run between downtown Brooklyn and Downtown Manhattan, and others throughout Midtown Manhattan
My underlying premise is that the Manhattan CBD be closed to all private automobiles, thus this alternative is required.
They could be installed one Avenue at a time.
First close Broadway to all traffic, then put LRVs running in both directions. Streets crossing broadway are also closed, leaving every third street open to cross broadway. This is where the tram stops are.
Each stop is just before the tram crosses the through street. The trams key by the station, turnning the traffic lights to red, then they have a clear three block run to the next station.
I envision low-riding cars that are ADA accessable, but are also double decker three unit articulated cars. Why so tall? The trolley wire needs to be high enough to clear trucks on the cross streets, so you may as well make the cars tall too.
No fare collection means that all doors will open and there would be no sales of tickets or need for conductors.
Elias
The problem is you could get a good cheap trunk line, say:
WTC - underground terminal
Rector St - Washington St subway
Governor's Island - expensive but cool
Van Brunt - Columbia Sts
Clinton St
Second Avenue
But then where would you send it?
Down 3rd Av and across the VN Bridge into SI sounds a good idea, but it would hugely duplicate the 4th Av BMT.
Continuing along the Prospect Expwy to Ft Ham Pkwy also sounds good - you'd get an interchange with both the 4th Av Lcl and the IND F train - but then it would be difficult to go anywhere further without wholly duplicating the Culver Line.
Ft Ham Pkwy to WTC would only be a stubby shuttle and probably in itself wouldn't merit its existence.
So I like the idea, but I don't see how it could work.
If one were to build a fantasy line through the BBT, I'd think an interesting one would be downtown -> BBT -> Prospect Expwy -> somehow diagonal over to Flatbush and then down maybe even to the rockaways! It always struck me as an obvious shortest path from that part of Brooklyn.
Does anyone know where I can obtain a font looking like the characters of the exterior displays of the R142?
Julian
P.S. I'm using them for my R190 design project (making textures is a pain)
More may come later on.
Sorry. :(
At least you didn't try to pawn off a photo of the 7 -- I'll grant you that much.
I'm aware my handle isn't "mr brian 9311" and I'm aware I omitted the underscore but I hope you guys can overlook that and say hi to me if you see me Sunday (just tell me who you are first haha). :-)
This Is What I Live For...
The ones he made for the REDBIRD RETIREMENT were classical symphony.
well you suck AND blow, my friend
CAN'T MISS ME with my big round 1 train logo (which will be) smack on the forehead.
VC Madman
Just look for the guy with an allen wrech, changing the rollsigns...
1) Does anyone know if the V will ever be extended into Brooklyn?
2)About the Bay Pkwy/McDonald Ave Station served by the F - why was it once called 22nd Ave?
3)Where did the B run before the Chrystie Street Connection?
2) Because at one point Bay Parkway was 22 Avenue. The key is when was the name of the road changed?
3) Maybe I have it confused with the BB. I think from Bedford Park/Grand Concourse express to 59/8 then local to 34/6.
I think pre-Chrystie, the BB ran rush hours only 168th St-Washington Heights to 34th St-6th Av (it terminated on the express tracks at 34th St as there was not yet any express service on 6th Av).
STILL no excuse unfortunately - whatever it takes, you HAVE to endure it ... back before "pee in the cup" a large number of "split shifters" would mosey on down to the drug store and purchase those silly "caffeine-based wakeup pills over the counter" ... I doubt any would THESE days ... but "falling asleep at the switch" is the BANE of railroader's existence - no matter WHAT. That's why FRA has the "dead on hours" law now.
I hate to see folks getting ratted out, but safety MUST come first. When on duty, you *DO* your job. If you're not up to it, let OTHERS move up the list and just get out of the way. :(
Would you rather it be 'let's ignore a serious risk to public safety' day?
When I got to the platform, the doors had JUST closed. The train started to budge forward, and that's when I glanced toward the C/R's window and saw that he was nowhere to be found.
He sow me watching him, and so he made a nice point to the sign. But it was all in one move with the opening of the doors. It appeared to me that he was pointing, and might have been surprized if the zebra was not there.
Oh Well.
Elias
Maybe he needed a haircut?
Regards,
Jimmy
Saturday's trip is gonna be mighty interesting ...
VC Madman
Can't think of anything related to transit though, Rush doesn't ride trains so I'll stop right here.
"Sorry, no results were found containing ""http://content.collegehumor.com/pictures/hummermod.jpg""
I remember the ride we did on the Frankie and the kid came up to us about to play "Timid Deer Lane" on us there. I reached into my coat, smiled at him and "game over" ... that's STILL one of my fondest rememberances of that ride - outdid the brewery spur AND the trolley poles. Heh. Paled by comparison though to that stained glasswork. Wow.
Which reminds me of how much I can't wait for Mr. Street to be prosecuted, especially after today's piece of graft in the paper.
Yeah! And they're nothing but a bunch of chickens!
Your standard three-Heineken breakfast? :)
NJ is incrediable severe with it's criminal penalties and fines and the police will bust anyone for just about anything. And the way the court system in NJ operates vs NY makes NJ seem like third world country. Just one example, in NY, if you are charged with an indicable offense (a felony), you have an absolute right to appear before the grand jury and your attorney is there with you. In NJ, you may only appear before the grand jury IF the DA allows you to. In other words, if the DA just wants to present a 100% biased presentation to the Grand Jury, you have no right to tell your side. Now you may say that the jury system protects you, and it does, but it cost a small fortune to go to trial.
One more thing, there is no such thing as a misdomenor in NJ, everything is a felony!
Consider that in Connecticut, there are no grand juries at all. Prosecutors have full discretion in deciding if and when to file charges. Generally speaking, grand juries do not add much if anything to the criminal justice system, as with rare exceptions they go along with prosecutors' recommendations and file charges.
My experience stems from a cop in a small south Jersey town who saw my softball bat (with my softball uniform and glove) and decided to charge me with felony weapons possesion - the bat (and who told me that "if you ever set foot in this town again, we'll find some reason to arrest you"). I was lucky that I had a good lawyer and an overconfident prosecutor who decided to let me appear before the grand jury. I told my side of it, that I was just coming home from a softball game I had been invited to and the Grand Jury voted no true bill! Still, cost me almost 1k in legal bills.
New York may be expensive, but it's the best sidewalk act *I've* seen. :)
Paterson and Passaic are in PASSAIC County, NOT Bergen. Hackensack seems like any medium-sized city: some rough sections, some working class, some comfortably middle class with mid-rise apartment buildings. Of course, the worst sections seem to be along the commuter railroad, in this case the Pascack line, so that the wealthier residents of upper Bergen and Rockland can see just how run-down Hackensack is.
The Bergen County communities of Englewood, Teaneck and Rutherford are said to have their pockets of poverty as well. Problem is, Bergen is stereotyped as being made up entirely of middle-class bedroom communities (Paramus, Ridgewood, Bergenfield) and those for the downright rich (Tenafly, Alpine, Closter, Haworth, the Saddle Rivers). Supposedly the wealthy along the West Shore branch, the one running through some of the communities sited above, have blocked all attempts at restoring much-needed passenger service.
My friend lives in Carlstadt, one of numerous blue-collar working class Bergen communities (along with Hasbrouck Heights, Rochelle Park, Lodi, Garfield, Elmwood Park, Saddle Brook and others). He says there are groups of troublemaking teenagers hanging out on the main drag at night- just as there were in Glen Oaks, the famously middle-class near suburban community he grew up in!
Not unique to Hackensack, for sure.
Peace,
ANDEE
People are moving up in the world and making better lives for their families, and that's a good thing.
Unfortunately, since the housing "norm" was houses rather than apartment buildings, there hasn't been a lot of, uh, "people of similar economic status" housing turnover. In my opinion, it seems sumhow unfair that folks who might have paid 30 to 50 K for their houses rub their hands in glee when those same houses now sell for three or foun hundred thousand dollars. It seems like a variant on eating the seed corn. That is, in many situations the only people who can afford those prices are those seeking to rent illegal apartments out of the once single family house.
Nassau's actually quite similar to the city in that there is very little room for new residential construction. If you want to build a new house in Nassau, either you have to find some small, odd-shaped lot and seek a zoning variance, or, more likely, buy an existing older house and tear it down. Large subdivisions are almost entirely out of the question. As a result, it's not hard to see why house prices are so high; demand is reasonably strong, but supply is severely constrained.
So I guess, demand and supply.
Arti
If it was not for zoning, a developer could tear down the house on the property that is too expensive for anyone who desires it and replace it with an apartment building.
Gotta give those younger folks some reason to stick around.
Well its exactly my fear. Taxes are very high in Nassau county, and utility rates are going up.
Alright, that I agree with, but that's about where it ends.
There's alot of property that RECENTLY has gone up for sale here in Westbury, as well as in Carle Place, Hicksville, and Mineola.
That's why Nassau county holds the HIGHEST property values in the immediate area, and the biggest shortage of houses for sale in decades.
All the middle class people are leaving and thugs are moving in. You get landlords that rent out alot of houses illegally and the "ghetto-ification" of a community has begun.
I'm not even going to touch that one directly, but as people in the city make more money, they have been moving east. It's a trend that has happened since WWII. The only difference between now and then is the "type" of people moving. Nothing to worry about. NYC has always been a "melting pot" of cultures, and it's no surprise that it's suburbs are becoming more similar.
And you know all about the malls here, which suck compared to New Jersey. And the ill-equipped police department is dumbfounded trying to fight these very urban problems.
New Jersey also has it's fair share of crime, and is far from immune from it. The grass is always greener on the other side.
I have a feeling 10 years from now perhaps 50% of Nassau county, maybe even more, will be ghetto.
Please.
OTOH, New Jersey seems to be in much better shape. The kind of middle class people that used to live here, now live there.
New Jersey has some very high crime areas, just like everywhere else. It is far from not having all the social issues Long Island has. There are plenty of junky areas in New Jersey, just like there are plenty of nice areas in nassau.
Its only a matter of time before we get scratchitti on the buses, maybe even on the LIRR. I already saw a bathroom door vandalized on a brand new M7.
And those trains do travel through NYC and Suffolk also, not just Nassau. I don;'t think NJ is immune from vandalism problems either.
Well at least with the upcoming snowstorm, I dont have to worry about trudging through unshoveled sidewalks and dealing with no bus service.
Well that's good. You are in a much better position than before.
I'm certainly not trying to knock you in this post, but you seem a bit paranoid, and some of your statements are a bit exagerated. Nassau County is not that bad of a place to live. New Jersey has the same problems Long Island has. In fact you go anywhere in the country and you will have a good area next to a less nice area.
Hehe, well here you go. It may not be the "best" example of "mystical", but my supply of mysticals in the subway are limited.
You would rather stick your head in the sand and hide behind script features than to listen to facts.
Not according to his complainant.
BTW, Michael Jackson has a HISTORY of associating with underage boys...if nothing else, MJ HIMSELF makes his own bad publicity...in an interview last year didn't 'the gloved one' mention he shares his bed with young boys????
Anyhow, I won't go on and on here since this has NOTHING to do with transit in any shape or form.
Then why should these people be locked up? If they are "to blame" for the "increase" in youth violence, then they should be given medals, since the percentage by which youth violence has increased is a negative number.
Of course, for you, it's a lot easier to stereotype than to use facts.
And then there's the Smith Haven Mall in Suffolk, where on Friday and Saturday evenings you'll see plenty of affluent white suburban kids doing their best to look and act like gangstas from the 'hood (there's a word, beginning with "w," that describes them, but I won't use it). They're actually quite amusing.
Valley Stream is a *nice* neighbourhood. Uniondale has a few issues, but it's safe. You're just paranoid.
Try wandering around some sections of Englewood or Hackensack at night.
You may be thinking of its northerly neighbor, Elmont, whose downtown (the intersection of Hempstead Turnpike and Elmont Road) has looked menacing (kids hanging out at night, beggars at bus stops) for years.
Yes, Urban Avenue is the last Main Line crossing before Hicksville. It is indeed in New Cassel, which is not even acknowledged by the postal service. Ergo, any New Cassel address is officially designated as Westbury 11590. Its main drag, Prospect Avenue, looks pretty uninviting.
This may consolation or not, but thugs hang out everywhere. Whenever I'm at the Bethpage station, there's a group of teenagers who love to jump down and cross the tracks between platforms, especially when trains are bearing down. Then they run when the conductor or engineer looks for them. They also like to block people getting off on the eastbound platform, from which the only exit is at the front by the Stewart Avenue crossing.
Even solidly middle-class East Rockaway has its miscreants. I once saw some teenagers who delighted in running fast down the platform behind some disembarking passengers, making them think they were being chased. Ha-ha, very funny! An elderly woman panicked, tripped and fell. Luckily she was not hurt seriously. Someone who yelled at the kids causing this got a bottle thrown at him.
So it's everywhere, even in the 'privileged' communities along the Babylon line (mileu of Amy Fisher and Mepham HS). The elevation of the ROW through Merrick, Bellmore et al means lots of pillars to provide irresistable hiding places for troublemakers.
You're just more aware of crime when it happens in your neighborhood.
Come on man. I feel safe wherever I go. And I go wherever I feel. "Safe", as you seem to define it, is not a natural state for any organism in this ecosphere. In a nutshell...You Gotta Fight. For Your Right. To Parrrrrty.
And that's all.
That's not true. There are not too many places that I really feel unsafe. You can get mugged in Forest Hills as well as Bedford-Stuyvesant. Safe is what you make it, like someone mentioned. If someone walks around scared stiff in any neighborhood people sense it, and problems will occur.
As for Bush, I don't know why everyone blames him for everything. Someone get's mugged, it's Bush's fault. There's grafitti on the train, it's Bush's fault. The truth is the streets/subway are safer now than they were just 10 years ago, and 100% better than 20 years ago.
I beg to differ. In my 20 1/2 years in the NYPD we handled an awful lot more "mugging" jobs than "Pedestrian hit" jobs, probably at a 30 to one ratio. (not a real statistic, just off the top of my head*)
*which is now shaven
Bullcrap. Most crimes in which one would "stalk" are against acquaintances.
Which is it, dude. One block or two blocks? That should be easy enough for you to figure out. Count the freakin corners or something.
"Perhaps I should start carrying Mace, a pocket knife, or a stunner."
Yeah, dude. that'll work for sure. Just carry some vaseline with you too so when the gangstas take it away from you they can give it back to you with less pain.
Yeah, dude. that'll work for sure. Just carry some vaseline with you too so when the gangstas take it away from you they can give it back to you with less pain.
I once read that Crisco works better than Vaseline :)
Congratulations to all who played -- you're all winners!!! Better luck next time, though, when we'll take bets on John's next power outage.
Seriously, John. Calm down. It's one incident. It happens all over, in every kind of neighborhood. Transit stations attract crime because they allow for easy targets and easy getaways. If you're that concerned, start a neighborhood patrol.
CG
I'll take a rain check on the dragon clips, but lunch at Wendy's sounds pretty good. Their chili is quite tasty.
;-)
Yeah, things can turn just like that. I remember getting out of college, and not being able to get a steady job for over a year. Then I got one. I thought I had gotten lucky. It turned out the economy had just turned, big time.
It IS when you actually put in some EFFORT...
You were at the Palisades... can't ask for job applications, brah???
When I was in the 11th grade, a classmate of mine died of cancer, painfully, horribly. His last 3 weeks were torture. But he kept coming to class. He lay stretched out on a lab table and performed the assigned experiments in chemistry. He couldn't take painkillers which would "dope" him in class, so he just took the pain. He finished his reading assignments. He even resisted my efforts to carry his books for him. I pleaded with him for the privilege of doing a little something nice for him.
I still remember him and miss him.
Same for you. Hell, what's the point of a website if we can't duke it out once in a while. I like a lot of the stuff you post and insist you keep posting. I learn from you.
#3 West End Jeff
With no future, there's no point. This guy was a masochist.
--Mark
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
No, but jeez, this is just mean...
Here's some more off the top of my head:All in The Family > MaudeMaude > Good Times (Florida was Maude's maid, it never explained how she ended up in Chicago from NY though!)All in The Family > Archie Bunker's PlaceAll in The Family > GloriaHappy Days > Joannie Loves Chachi (?)Happy Days > Laverne & ShirleyMary Tyler Moore Show > Rhoda (was there also a spinoff called Phyllis?)Pettycoat Junction > Green Acres (This at least gets it back on topic because of the Hooterville Cannonball)Andy Griffith Show > Gomer Pyle USMCBarney Miller > FishCheers > FrasierThree's Company > The Ropers I know there's a lot more but I gotta go out and play in the snow now.
wayne
Then there were continuations of series under different names.
Andy Griffith Show - Mayberry RFD
Three's Company - Three's a Crowd
Then you have MASH and After MASH, where Potter, Klinger and Mulcahy worked together in a midwest hospital after coming home from Korea.
Suicide is painless...
STAR TREK ('60s series)> GARY SEVEN (The lead character from "Assignment: Earth" was to have his own show where he helps mankind get out of jams)
LOST IN SPACE > THE MAN FROM THE 25TH CENTURY (a man who was kidnapped in infancy by aliens is sent to earth to start the downfall of the human race. A short film was made before it was canned)
BATMAN > BATGIRL (was supposed to have her own show and villians but was just added into the BATMAN series instead. A short film exists)
SIX MILLION DOLLAR MAN > BIONIC BOY (teenage version of the parent show). There was the BIONIC WOMAN which was made with Lindsay Waggoner and was a hit.
Oh, BTW, THE ANDY GRIFFITH SHOW also had a later spinoff called MAYBERRY, RFD...with Ken Berry. Actually, I believe GREEN ACRES was the original show and PETTICOAT JUNCTION was the spinoff. IIRC, wasn't GREEN ACRES itself some relation to the Andy Griffith Show??? I thought it was...
Also the 10 movies.
Also there was The Lone Gunmen from The X-Files. After that show was cancelled, Mulder's nerdy friends were reintegrated into the X-files.
In case anyone watched the pilot, the plot involved the trio stopping a computer controlled airplane from crashing into the World Trade Center. Original Air Date: March 4, 2001.
--Mark
Oh man!!! So as a teenager, all those Sunday nights of watching Married With Children, and panting over Christina Appelgate, I was panting over a guy in drag! I feel dirty now.
IAWTP.com
As I was searching the wet pavement for the lost receipt, I
heard a quiet sobbing. The crying was coming from a poorly
dressed boy of about 12 years old. He was short and thin.
He had no coat. He was just wearing a ragged flannel shirt
to protect him from the cold night's chill.
Oddly enough, he was holding a hundred dollar bill in his hand.
Thinking that he had gotten lost from his parents, I asked him
what was wrong. He told me his sad story. He said that he
came from a large family. He had three brothers and four
sisters. His father had died when he was nine years old. His
mother was poorly educated and worked two full time jobs. She
made very little to support her large family.
Nevertheless, she had managed to skimp and save two hundred
dollars to buy her children Christmas presents. The young
boy had been dropped off, by his mother, on the way to her
second job. He was to use the money to buy presents for all
his siblings and save just enough to take the bus home. He had
not even entered the mall, when an older boy grabbed one of
the hundred dollar bills and disappeared into the night.
Why didn't you scream for help?" I asked.
The boy said, "I did."
"And nobody came to help you?" I wondered.
The boy stared at the sidewalk and sadly shook his head.
"How loud did you scream?" I inquired.
The soft-spoken boy looked up and meekly whispered, "Help me..."
I realized then that absolutely no one could have heard that
poor boy cry for help. So I grabbed his other hundred and ran
to my truck.
Save up some $$$ and visit one of those Asian massage joints that advertise in the back pages of the Village Voice. Somehow I can't imagine that they're terribly expensive. Having done so, you'll feel less desparate and that should make it easier for you to deal with chix.
Also women like personal trainers, not railfans.
Most chix don't realize that most personal trainers are morons with mail-order certifications and grossly inadequate knowledge of proper training routines.
Sez who? Brother, you don't know of what you speak. You can't approach the situation with that attitude. Combine the two! Woman always appreciate dudes who are really into what they like. Make it sound interesting, boyo. Regale `em with harrowing tales of the rails. Get `em gigglin' with your intensity. Use some of your "inside knowledge" to amaze and please and tease the honey.
And if that don't work, get off at the NEXT stop and do it again. Or, don't combine the two. Just go fer it.
Better still, try not to post except under supervision. I USUALLY know what I'm doing- though some may beg to differ.
Not a hard one...
You kids are too good.
Not really, as TA indicates when service is available cross-platform. Actually lack of that wording was a clue for me.
Arti
Ok, maybe a little.
I'm thinking of the end of Matrix Revolutions.
http://abcnews.go.com/wire/World/ap20031205_37.html
MOSCOW Dec. 5 An explosion ripped through a train in southern Russia on Friday, killing at least 15 people and injuring 50, emergency officials said.
The train was traveling between the cities of Kislovodsk and Mineralnye Vody, near the war-wracked region of Chechnya, according to the Emergency Situations Ministry. The explosion occurred near the town of Yessentuki, ministry spokesman Viktor Beltsov said.
According to preliminary information, a bomb was placed under or in the second car in the train, he said.
-----------
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3293095.stm
Train blast kills 15 in Russia
At least 15 people have been killed in an explosion on a commuter train in southern Russia.
Another 50 people were injured in the blast, which derailed the train between the resort towns of Mineralnye Vody and Kislovodsk.
The area is near the troubled region of Chechnya.
Russia's emergencies ministry has said that the explosion was the result of a "terrorist act", and that a bomb destroyed the train's second carriage.
Local officials described pulling bodies from the train, which has been thrown onto its side.
The explosion happened about 0800 (0500GMT).
Death Toll now at 36. :(
I have a girl. Thanks.
I wonder if I could tell him which MTH subway sets I want for Christmas!
His wife wears a hat because they are observant Jews, and under Orthodox law, women must cover their hair for all men except their parents, siblings, children and husbands.
As I said, this looks like a normal hat that women wear on Shabbos. She probably wore the hat for a nice formal photo.
I hope that picture wasn't taken on Shabbos.
Michael
Washington, DC
--Mark
Don't ever post with my handle again.
But it was seriously funny to read!
Would I be right in guessing that Moms at home looking at the snow and Dantes at school?
Yes you would. LOL.
I *HOPE* he didn't bet his 6 grape sodas...
In this project, they completely submerged the Central Artery (the main highway through downtown), creating an 8-mile 8-10 lane superhighway underground, built an incredibly complex network of interchanges between two interstate highways and two major state highways (I-90, I-93, Rt 1 & Rt 3), bullt a new harbor tunnel (Ted Williams tunnel, an expwy to Logan Airport) that connects with all this, built a huge new bridge (the Zakem Memorial), and the Gray Line (a submerged bus-only line; practically a subway line in and of itself). The builders pulled off some engineering miracles to get it done, weaving around, over, and under existing subway lines. And once the last part is opened in two weeks, the entire flow of traffic in Boston will be markedly quicker, the godawfully ugly and woefully inadequate elevated highway will be gone, and the quality of life for Boston commuters should improve by a huge margin.
Why then will it cost $17B (not even counting the inevitable cost overruns) and take 12+ years to build one frikkin two-track subway line that won't serve the majority of riders, and (apart from a connection to the B'way line) doesn't even go to the outer boroughs? Ludicrous.
I find it the height of absurdity to see the price tag of the Second Avenue Subway set at (at least) $17 billion, and will take some 12 years to build. Boston's Big Dig project cost about $4 or 5 billion less (even after all the overruns), and took about as long.
Why then will it cost $17B (not even counting the inevitable cost overruns) and take 12+ years to build one frikkin two-track subway line that won't serve the majority of riders, and (apart from a connection to the B'way line) doesn't even go to the outer boroughs? Ludicrous.
It may cost this much and take this much time to excavate under Manhattan these days OR the MTA's presenting a "worst case scenario" OR the spirit of Boss Tweed lives on.
Anyway, I think i'm missing one big engineering fact on this whole thing. If your tunnelling that deep, where is there a problem, I mean all your work is going on underground. I couldn't even see any problems with utilities since those aren't usually that deep. Aside from stations and such, what would cause this project to get in the way of the daily life on the surface?
The stations have to be cut and cover. Very expensive, though I also don't personally see how it adds up to $16 billion.
Big Dig: Replace an existing highway "in the sky" with a larger submerged version of itself. Sure, it removes the ugly beast in the sky and adds a few more lanes, but the Bay State could've just as easily spent half of that improving the MBTA Commuter Rail's Northern lines (running out of North Station), always second-rate to the Southern Lines, as well as expansion on the Orange Line. But that would mean giving in to transit advocates who actually say that improving one of the world's most bureacratic big-city transit systems would actually *gasp* take people off the road. And is it really that good? Let me see, I drove through the new tunnels and got lost (and I'm a local!) 'cuz the signage is SO BAD, plus half of the tunnel speed limits are 25 mph so you have the locals like myself doing 45 and lost out-of-towners going at the speed limit, that's an accident waiting to happen. And what of this notion that it will make driving all over Boston better--all it's doing is encouraging MORE people to drive into this cowpasture-avenue city.
2nd Av Subway: A bit pricey and definitely more research is necessary into exactly how much it will alleviate the "lonely" Lexington Av Line, which seems to do fairly well but could use some assistance after all these years. Let's face it--subways are expensive these days, especially in overdeveloped areas like Manhattan. Considering the amount of temporary structuring necessary to do the cut-and-cover for the already existing subways while keeping the roads open, the undertaking is a very bold one in today's time with ten times the amount of traffic on the surface and utilities underneath. My solution: an elevated heavy rail system like Miami's--much cheaper and if done right, aesthetically pleasing. Of course, the whole point of the subway building years ago in Manhattan was to get RID of elevated rail, but it's on the comeback. Any takers?
If we had an elevated system, I'd favor extending it, as at the end of the Astoria line. But in Manhattan what would it connect to? We have a system. The system should be expanded, not replaced by more parts that do not inter-operate (there are too many of those already).
Elevated lines are not on the comeback... It's ground transportation that LRV rely on that is on the comeback.
N Bwy
The only profitable LRT systems in the UK is the DLR, effectively an automated El. Sys something about surface running...
No the $17 Billion is more accurate, the Elevated JFK Airtrain cost $2.3 Billion.
Boston's Big Dig's final cost will reach $16 billion when the final bit of asphalt is put in and the new Green Line ramp is finally done.
The engineering was very impressive but the cost oveerruns were horrendous, mostly due to lack of fully anticipating what would be required.
And the Big Dig's area of construction was confined to central Boston, even if you count the Bridges.
"and the Gray Line (a submerged bus-only line; practically a subway line in and of itself)."
You are referring to the Silver Line. The Silver Line's cost is not included in the Big Dig project.
"Why then will it cost $17B (not even counting the inevitable cost overruns) and take 12+ years to build one frikkin two-track subway line"
Covering the full length of Manhattan, a much larger area than the Big Dig (but not as many engineering complications).
" over a larger area tha that won't serve the majority of riders,"
It will serve, directly, or indirectly, riders on three of the city's the busiest trunks: the Lex, the Broadway Line, and the Queens Blvd. Line, and will impact riders in 4 boroughs.
Try again...
Time to move onto PPP. Let the private sector worry about getting things right.
Arti
NO!!! PPP is a disaster - it means government paying profiteers money.
Do elaborate, what do you mean by profiteers.
Also, how is it worse of government payng an engineering firm or construction company money.
Arti
Look at the disaster that used to be British Rail. It is no coincidence that the SRA justified the latest fare hikes by stating that there were two ways the railways were funded: increased government subsidy and higher fares. The private sector does not put any significant amount of money in, but takes a huge amount out. Meanwhile everything is costing more as more people try to profiteer and everyone is getting ripped off as a result. Bring back British Rail!
Arti
Urgent - Winter Weather Message National Weather Service Upton NY 406 AM EST Fri Dec 5 2003
1700- Bronx NY-Essex NJ-Hudson NJ-Kings (brooklyn) NY-Nassau NY- New York (manhattan) NY-Queens NY-Richmond (staten Is.) NY-Union NJ-
...The National Weather Service Has Issued A Winter Storm Warning For Tonight Through Saturday Night...
Light Snow Will Overspread The Area Early This Afternoon...With An Inch Or Less Accumulation Expected By Early This Evening. Precipitation May Mix With Light Rain Or Sleet Tonight As Relatively Mild Air Is Drawn In From Off The Ocean...Limiting Total Accumulation By Early Saturday Morning To Around 2 Inches.
Precipitation Will Likely Become All Snow Again Late Tonight And Become Heavy At Times Saturday...With 3 To 5 Inches Total Accumulation By Saturday Evening. Snow...Heavy At Times...Will Continue Into Saturday Night...Then Taper Off And End By Daybreak Sunday. While The Exact Track Of This Storm Will Determine The Exact Snowfall Amounts...At This Time Snowfall Totals Of 6 To 8 Inches Are Expected. In Addition...Northeast Winds Will Become Strong Tonight Through Saturday Night...Causing Considerable Blowing And Drifting Snow.
I doubt if there will be a trip this weekend.
Michael
Washington, DC
I can imagine a T/O humming "Rudolph with your nose so bright, won't you lead my R142 tonight?"
I can imagine a T/O screaming "Whoa, Rudolph" as he slides down the Manny B towards a red.
Michael
Washington, DC
No wonder the light is red.
So it turns white for a half a day - turns cruddy and sloppy REAL fast ... as we say upstate, "Watch out where the huskies go and don't you eat that YELLOW snow ..." :)
Eddie, are you kidding?
I've seen you on my TV
Eddie, are you kidding?
The people always ask me
I saw your double knits
I thought they were the pits
You threw it in a bag
And then you sent me home - -
What!?
Eddie, are you kidding?
No, no.
Eddie, are you kidding?
No, no.
Eddie, are you teasing
About your rancid garments?
Eddie, are you teasing
About your sixty tailors?
I'm coming over shortly
Because I am a portly
You promised you could fit me
In fifty Dollar suit - -
Oh
Eddie, are you kidding?
No, no.
Eddie, are you kidding?
No, no.
When I said it does not look good, people are saying the trip might be called off with snow. However the subways are running anyway so the trips are still ON.
I have to set up a craft show late this afternoon and I am wondering if I will even be able to get out of my driveway.
There are currently track connections to both the East and West side lines.
The drawing on the MTA web site shows the new station connected to the West Side lines only.
Was service ever run on the East Side to South Ferry?
wayne
The Suttle operated with special cars that were rigged to only open the middle doors. It was not worth the effor to keep them going.
Elias
You also would not wish to contemplate the pain of jumping out an end door and smacking flat dab into a concrete wall. OUCH!
You also would not wish to contemplate the pain of jumping out an end door and smacking flat dab into a concrete wall. OUCH!
Yes, that is why the walls are there, but the issue remains that modern cars cannot platform there because they cannot selectively open just the center doors.
: ) Elias
South Ferry had Lex service until 1977, although except for a brief period 1905-08 before the Brooklyn line opened, such service was through a shuttle rush hours, through service was only off peak.
It is very easy to schedule these short runs so that they remain in the South Ferry loop, while a boat arrives, load its passengers and leave 5 minutes after the boat docks. These expresses currently run comparitively empty uptown. This would provide them with a useful load on their way back to their Bronx yards.
The pm rush is different. You want to get passengers to the ferry as quickly as possible. The 2-car shuttle is good for that. The only hindrance would be a 90 second dwell time at each station to change direction. The best headway would be 5-6 minutes.
The removing the capability to open only center doors was a great blunder in the design of the postwar IRT cars. It's an insignificant cost item in the car's design and maintenance. Want to build a 2nd South Ferry terminal for the East Side for another $200 million to overcome this gaff?
On the Lo-V, the center doors had an automatic cut-out for when
the space was being used as an extra seat in off-peak hours,
and another automatic cut-out so the vestibule doors wouldn't open
at the front or rear of the train, but no way I can think of to
open just the center doors without going beneath the seats and
using the cut-out switch. This seems to be equivalent to what
it would take with modern equipment.
I remember a thread awhile ago where some subtalkers laid out elaborate plans for a new South Ferry station that included tail tracks and a semi-straight platform.
Once we have a full-length SAS, this might be something to consider. But I agree that if the MTA is digging up Battery Park, they should consider East Side revenue connections.
It would also require more space than there is to build two such stations
Recently the MTA just added another <5> train on the Lexington at least during the PM rush.
NY1 on South Ferry Plans
NY1 on Downtown Funds
He's as much a New York City fixture as a bagel with a shmear. I would hate to see something happen to him.
Posted on:12/5/03 9:46:02 AM
Due to signal problems at 34th Street/6th Avenue, downtown-bound B & D trains are running with delays through the area.
"WCBS-TV 2 is doing an hour-long special on the Subway Centennial to air at the end of January. Please help us by answering any of the following questions:
1) What's the longest ride anyone has to get work every day?(names and contact info please). The A train is the longest line, but who has the longest commute?
2) Hidden Treasures -- we know about the original City Hall station, but what other hidden tunnels or retired stations might the viewers find interesting?
3) Public Bathrooms -- Are there still any in the subway system? If so, where?
Please send answers to these and offer any other ideas to CBS-2 correspondent Brendan Keefe directly at bkeefe@cbs.com or post them in this discussion group.
Thanks!"
(3) I know for a fact that a subway bathroom exists at 71st-Continental Ave's station on the E/F/V/G line.
2)The OTHER City Hall station
the tunnels to 76th St
***the Chrystie connector between the J/M/Z and the F/V***
Worth/Lafyette, 18/Park, and 91/Bway
South Ferry Loop connection to the 5 at Bowling Green
3)Jamaica Center, Rockaway Parkway
Here's a list of some I know of:
34th St-Herald Sq (by the elevators to the Broadway Line)
East 180 St
Parkchester (mezzanine level above Fare Control [FC])
Church Av/McDonald Av (behind the first staircase to Manhattan-bound trains on the Church Avenue end [inside FC])
Jamaica Center (inside of Parsons Blvd. FC)
Main Street-Flushing (inside Lippman Plaza FC)
Don't tell me your answers - email the guy at CBS bkeefe@cbs.com.
Oh well, perhaps we'll get more intellegent coverage from the print media.
I remember WMATA had to rename the station stop and all the maps to reflect Ronald Reagan national aiport (with the threat of no funding if they didn't). Though I still just call it "National".
GIVE ME A BREAK!
I just don't like the idea of naming major sites after living* people. Somehow doesn't seem right.
* = admittedly, in Reagan's case, this is somewhat of a gray area
But what happened to Idelwild Airport? And Hudson County Bouievard? And Cape Canaveral (one of the oldest nams in the U.S.), though that was eventually reversed. And streets and schools throughout the country.
But people go ape when something is named for a Republican...
(And I'm not even a Republican)
Not a Republican. Actually not a [modern] Democrat either. More like a Libertarian. Seriously.
You'll be hard pressed to find any evidence that Jefferson actually wrote that. The first written record of that phrase comes in Thoreau's Civil Disobedience. My guess is current exponents of this doctrine would prefer us not to know its context. Jefferson, they thought, was safer than Thoreau.
CG
A better campaign slogan would have been "Can't someone else do it?"
I sure hope that reason wins out and science is able to fully explore the possiblities of stems cells without the intererence of the far right.
The garbage man can!
Of all our founding fathers, Thomas Jefferson is the least worthy of adulation.
Big %$#@& deal.
Also FDR has been dead for over 50 years while Reagan has only been brain dead for that long.
This is a southbound 6 train. Next Stop, Union-bashing Square/Reagan Plaza, change for the L train ... :-\
Ummmm, are you so sure about that? I think that it is definitly a point that can be argued.
Selkirk makes a good point, we could honor RR by renaming Union Square, Union Bashing/Reagan Square. Kind of honor's the man and explains what he was about. I sure the air traffic controllers remember him well.
Union Bashing/Ronald Reagan/James Earl Carter Square
It was Carter's plan to fire the Air Controllers, which Reagan carried out. And Carter taxed Unemployment Insurance, a mainstay of labor, for the first time.
But not he's a regular diety among the starry-eyed left.
It's a matter of Whose Ox is Getting Honored.
And don't forget what his tax cuts did to the deficeit. Remember before Reagan, the Republican hated deficiets. But when there man created unprecidentedly large ones, they were OK. Go figure........
I'm trying not to get political, but I cannot let this one go. This is utter BS. Tax cuts and deficits have nothing to do with each other. Reagan's tax cuts created the largest peacetime economic expansion in the nation's history. Incoming revenues rose every year from 1982 to 1988. The deficit was caused by spending. They basically spent it faster than it was coming in. Now Reagan is partially to blame here, given his incredible increase in defense spending. But the prime culprit was Congress, especially the House, which was controlled by the Democrats throughout Reagan's 2 terms.
In simple terms, if you had a weekly salary of $400, and you spend $600 a week, your debt will continue to rise, even if you get a raise and make $500 a week.
Yes, absoluetly.
Sample BMT route numbers (historic data):
3 West End
6 Fifth Avenue
9 Flushing
12 Lexington Avenue
BMT route numbers after four years of Reagan price stability (rounded):
3 West End
7 Fifth Avenue
10 Flushing
13 Lexington Avenue
BMT route numbers after four years of Jimmy Carter inflation (rounded):
5 West End
10 Fifth Avenue
18 Flushing
22 Lexington Avenue
Reagan's tax cuts piggybacked onto an economic expansion he had very little to do with. FDR kick-started the 1930s economy with spending, and then World War II created most of the expansion. Judicious cuts at lower incomes would have helped a lot more people; the economic expansion was going to happen anyway.
His tax cuts were the direct cause of the deficit. The income produced was marginal in the scheme of things.
The only real surpluses in the last 20 years were created during the Clinton Administration. Clinton doesn't get credit for all of it, but Clinton ran things more sensibly than Reagan ever did, with his "voodoo" economics.
His tax cuts mainly made wealthy people wealthier.
Up before Regan we had fought the cold war on a cash and carry basis resulting in marginal tax rates as high as 90%. Regan came up with the novel idea in his short circuting head that maybe we could defeat the soviet union on credit. And thusly we did. Anyway, you know what happenes to people who run up big credit card bills then just pay the minimum.
Not only should you be able to pay extra to have your name put on stuff, people who pay over a certain amount in income taxes should also have things named after them. I am a big proponent of the fair re-distrabution of income, but that does not mean I am anti-rich. The top %5 should be recognized when they help out the rest of us through their various tax payments and putting their name on things that their tax dollars pay for is a fairly inexpensive way of doing it. I mean saying "thank you" really goes a long way to making people less pissed off.
Top 5% Veterans Memorial Stadiuam
The Fiorello LaGuardia City Sales Tax
Or: How about the Great Reagan Deficit? I'm into giving credit for both good and bad.
Really, Doug, it's not. He's 90, and he can only go on so long--see if any of the critics, say "OK, now let's name stuff for him."
Washington Metro should have been embarassed. They rename stations at the drop of a hat to please local constituencies. They should just have been gracious and changed the station name when the airport's name legally changed.
What would you think if someone started lobbying to change the name of the AirTrain to "Idlewild AirTrain."
If you want to personally cough up the bucks to do it...
Old names are cool! Maybe that big Manhattan station, the western terminus of the Shuttle and the 7, should be renamed 42 Street - Longacre Square :)
DISNEY SQUARE! LAST STOP! :-\
Which is now called?
No one went ape when they named things after Eisenhower. No one cared when they named Houston's airport after George H.W. Bush. No one minds naming things after Teddy Roosevelt and Lincoln and Rockefeller. No one will be upset if they ever name something after Gerald Ford. It's only certain Republicans (the polarizing ones) that people get upset over.
Besides, you can't put someone on a coin till they're dead.
Ike was a Republican in name only.
polarizing adj.: Description of a successful Republican President who uses executive power deftly in an aggressive fashion. q.v.: Ronald Reagan
beloved adj.: Description of a successful Democratic President who uses executive power deftly in an aggressive fashion. q.v.: Franklin D. Roosevelt
effective: adj.: See beloved.
people noun: Member of Democratic core constituency.
avid
A strike of the BRC (Brotherhood of Railway Carmen) in 1980 suspended PATH service for 81 days, beginning on June 12 and ending on August 31, service resumed on Labor Day (September 1).
During the strike, replacement buses ran and charged $1.15 at a time when PATH fare was 30 (and subway fare was 60)
There was also a 9-week strike of the same union in 1973.
The Kawasaki R62's from the 4 line replaced those singles.
The 4 line received R142's numbering in the high 7000's through the 7100's, and also 1100-1250. There is at least one train of R62's running on the 4 line, and at least two trains of R142A's also, low- to mid-7700's.
The 5-car sets on the 7 came from the 1 and 6 lines: 1600's and 1700's came from the 1, 1800's from the 6, but I think some of those have been transferred to the 1, and replaced with the 1's 1700's.
The 6 line is 100% R142A, 7211 through the 7600's.
I can confirm at least two R-62 sets in service on the 4 today.
Many of the unitized R-62A's on the 7 also came from the 3. (The 3 didn't have a full fleet of singles.)
2-380 cars (239 St., Bronx)
380 Am R-142 6301-6680 (5-car unitized)
(10 AEG R-110A 8001-8010: Under Evalution.)
--Am R-142 from 2 used on 5 as required.
--Am R-142 from 5 used on 2 as required.
3 (Blue)-305 cars
260 GE R-62 1301-1305, 1326-1335, 1341-1350, 1356-1365, 1371-1375, 1381-1385, 1391-1405, 1411-1434, 1438, 1441-1460, 1466-1515, 1521-1625 (5-car unitized)
45 WH R-62A 1901-1908, 1910-1956 (cars 0, 1, 5, 6 from 1901-1956, except 1905 and 1910, have full-width cabs).
4 (Orange)-395 cars
55 GE R-62 1306-1325, 1336-1340, 1351-1355, 1376-1380, 1386-1390, 1406-1410, 1461-1465, 1516-1520 (5-car unitized).
70 Am R-142A 7216-7220, 7406-7410, 7661-7680, 7686-7725 (5-car unitized).
270 Am R-142 1101-1250, 7061-7180 (5-car unitized).
5 (East 180 St., Bronx)-380 cars
380 Am R-142 6681-7060 (5-car unitized). Used on OPTO.
--Am R-142 from 2 used on 5 as required.
--Am R-142 from 5 used on 2 as required.
6-450 cars (Westchester Yard, Bronx)
450 Am R-142A 7211-7215, 7221-7405, 7411-7660, 7681-7685, 7726-7730 (5-car unitized).
7 (Purple)-399 cars
200 WH R-62A 1651-1850 (5-car unitized)
199 WH R-62A 1957-2155 (single units)
S (Blue)-10 cars
10 WH R-62A 1901-1908, 1910-1956 (cars 0, 1, 5, 6 from 1901-1956, except 1905 and 1910, have full-width cabs).
3 Red Line Trains Break Down This Morning
The chances are the failures were air-systems related, therefore related to the inclement weather. Air systems tend to freeze up in the cold.
I guess someone is coming around to their senses. I don't know about the other days but 4 car trains on the day before and after Thanksgiving was definately a mistake.
That would be 1961 when the R-27's were the first to use the letter routes.
Bill "Newkirk"
>>GG<< :>) ~ Sparky
Sean hart
So I'm not sure if there are any "standards" for attempting to break the record.
Of course, that's just my opinion on the matter.
as i take it, riding the system means hitting every local stop on one fair
sean hart
There really are no standards or records to beat, because the system changes from time to time. Routes come and routes go. Some routes may have been quicker than existing routes. Some lines (Such as the Myrtle and the Third Avenue) are GONE! A 63rd Street tunnel has been built. Very soon the Manny B will open.
Some people have tried to ride every route, others are satisfied with riding each line. Some are content to tick off a line by riding an express train, others want to stop at each and every platform. People in school or with jobs might try to do this on the weekend, but of course there are less trains and frequency on the weekend. If you can do weekdays, you need to plan using the rush hours to your best advantage. And does your plan permit you to use street transfers by walking from the Queensboro line to the Jamaica line. A few minutes on foot can cut about an hour off of your effort.
It is your choice, take a ride, tell us what you did, and if someone else thinks they can do better doing what you did, then they can go for it.
Perhaps we need a page for "Marathons" where people can post the details of their trip, and others then can try to duplicate that trip.
Elias
I'm planning on going for the record next fall. I think that a total time in the 27-28 hour range is possible, with the chances of beating 26 hours slim.
Sean
Any idea what the current record is for Class C? There's gotta be a way to do it faster than that...
Comparing the system in 1967 to present day, do you think it should be harder or easier to do a Class C run in lets say less than 23 hours?
Maybe if a few railfans/posters drum up some interest, this 'sport' could be revived! It is a very, very fond memory and my 15 minutes of fame!
I don't have the details on paper, and my memory is a little faint, as this was over 35 years ago. There were 3 classes, A the most difficult. I think you had to stop at each station, and if the opposing directions of travel were separated by more than 100 (?) feet you had to go in both directions. Class B was similar without the 2 direction rule. Class C was the fastest, allowing express usage.
Since the system has changed many times since 1967, and since there isn't the interest now that there was then, the current record is fuzzy. I don't think there is anyone validating any claims any longer either. So maybe you can establish the current system record!!
I've long thought Metro-North should just take over Amtrak's Northeast Corridor from Boston-New York
Why, so all trains can slow down to 70 mph again? and you get a six-hour ride to Boston. And whoops, where is Metro-North going to get the money for electric motors to pull its Shoreliners out of Grand Central up to Boston? not to mention reactivate the overhead third-rail in GCT too. And don’t forget better seating for their Shoreliners too…
and that way Amtrak could focus it's attention on its so-so corridors like those in the West and up-can-coming developments like Florida
Amtrak does not own those corridors and cannot do anything about their state of being. Not to mention that you have done Amtrak out of some vital revenue. Oh, and you want to keep Amtrak on the NY-Albany run too? Why not shut them out of that one and just have the Late Shore Limited, yeah, there’s a great reason for maintaining the West Side connection into NY Penn…
He was referring to catenary wire
No, he was not. There is (inactive) overhead third-rail in GCT; its purpose was to help the New York Central and New Haven RRs’ electric motors bridge the gaps in the rail-bound third rail, something MUs can do but not single locos (or even doubleheaded locos) can do.
That was NOT a mistake, that IS how it was made, and it reached up to some overhead 3rd Rails to get across the switches.
What I just found out (here) was that they were also on FL-9s.
I had never seen that. Does anybody have a picture?
Elias
Back in the day (1910s or so) when Penn was 650vdc 3rd rail and Washington and Philadelphia originating trains swapped engines at Manhattan Transfer station, Penn Station had overhead 3rd rail, just like GCT. Indeed, in the book When Steam Railroads Electrified by William D. Middleton, there is a picture which shows the daylighted area west of the station, 'A' interlocking I belive, with massive 650vdc overhead 3rd rail.
In that picture is an L5a, later known as an L5PD. The original L5 was designed as an AC locomotive for the original sections of electrification down in Philly. The L5 proved somewhat successful hauling stuff up and down the Paoli grades west of Philadelphia, so the Pennsy decided to supplement the original DD1 electrics that ran under the hudson on 650vdc with a DC version of the L5. Thus the L5a was born. IIRC they were designed to be changed over to straight AC L5s (later L5PA) when the AC electrification reached to New York Penn, however later that proved to be cost prohibitive and they hung out on the LIRR freight tracks with the DD1s until they were scrapped in 1942. Now note that picture, it has the two small pantographs, and that is a L5a, so they must be there for something, and that something was the overhead 3rd rail at NYP.
Also, I was wrong, the L5PDs were not taken by the LIRR for freight service. LIRR did take the DD1s for service on their 3rd rail, but not the L-5PDs.
Um, if the trains to Boston actually averaged 70 mph, they'd take under 3.5 hours.
The problem with Boston is not the lack of high speed runs; it's the ultra low speeds over bridges, around curves, over switches, etc.
But once it is late its tough nuggies! It will just have to fit in where there is space. AFTER OUR TRAINS.
Heck, all of the freight railroads do it the same way.
Elias
Of course, it all seems fair from the host railroad's perspective. =)
:-) Andrew
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
*According to the BERA website's latest totals I have 99 volunteer hours, I need one more hour for an even 100!!!
Without the official word, I doubt BERA will be open to the
public on Sunday. But as usual the snow doesn't move it self
until spring without membership assistance. Rare opportunity
to see Montreal 3152 in action. Was located 1st out on track 64
on Friday.
>>GG<< :-) ~ Sparky
:-) ~ Sparky
:>) ~ Sparky
Your just another burnout with excessive rhetoric.
Seen many in twenty years @ Branford. Eighteen @ Seashore.
So Chill Brah
:>) ~ Sparky
AKA John Sikorski
Yes, I still have my T-shirt from the New York Trolley Museum,
never worn. My association of 25 years with that location has
been severed, but you do not see me "Bad" mouthing them on a
public forum. I wouldn't stoop so low to your level of assiduity.
Rhetoric: also : insincere or grandiloquent language.
You call it what you desire, but there is more than a single definition for a word.
[BTW, Grandiloquent means pompous, or bombastic style, manner, or quality especially in language.]
>>>"you still posting up signs that you can only run 45 minute headways cause you only have 2 operators?"<<< WHAT????????????
You on some kinda trip in LALA Land.
Cars operate every thirty minutes or sooner if required.
>>>"Hey friend, how about running a post with three real bus lines, two of them reliefs running 7 to 8 minute headways for EIGHT hours"<<<
There is a message board, for this purpose it's BUSTALK. LOL
;>) ~ Sparky
:>) ~ Sparky
:>) ~ Sparky
Hang around and just maybe I'll let YOU twirl my key chain........
You were surface division ten years ago? Inquiring mind wants
to know. >>GG<<
:>) ~ Sparky
Plus: "After a VIP brunch at UH-Downtown, Metro plans a 4 1/2-hour "Railfest Houston" where the public may ride the train free of charge and partake in activities at eight stations. " I wonder if all those out of town anti-rail foes will be on hand.
From the Houston Chronicle
Guess it's time for me to move.
Your NOAA is different from my NOAA.
http://www.srh.noaa.gov/data/forecasts/NYZ072.php?warncounty=NYC061&city=New+York (just refreshed) says total accumulation by late Saturday 6 to 8 inches.
Maybe your forecast is for a different place, such as Boston or Albany.
There was 8.5 inches in my backyard half an hour ago, here in Windsor Terrace Brooklyn. Perhaps they mean 8.5 more inches. That will start to put us in top ten category down here.
The on-topic point is that 24 hours ago this was not anticipated to be a big enough storm to affect the subway. But now it might. Fortunately, it is a Saturday. Unfortunately, they'll have to cancel all the G.O.s and a lot of work won't get done.
Chuck Greene
It started in late morning and we have had a steady snow since, probably 2-3 inches on the ground already. Good thing there's plenty nearby. One of the one million reasons I love this town. :-)
VC Madman
Chuck Greene
Don't get lost in the holiday shopping crowds...the MOD trip will take place during the 8 days of Hanukkah, and 4-5 days before Christmas. -Nick
The trip is postponed for 2 weeks, not cancelled.
Posted on:12/5/03 3:12:32 PM
Due to a smoke condition at 7th Avenue in Brooklyn, Avenue X bound F trains are suspended between Jay Street and Kings Highway until further notice.
Not one street in all of Port Washington has been plowed!!!! ROFL
DETROIT PEOPLE MOVER however snow was quite ""Deep"" many winters !!
had to get that snow brush and knock the stuff off many times
start and run the car 2 twice a day especially on cold dayz
............back in the late 1980s ................
it is the freezing rain that was a big BITCH ..........
.........no ....lol
8-) ~ Sparky
Oh well, as long as the same routings are retained.
John
>>GG<< :>) ~ Sparky
Chuck Greene
Good question. I never got my tickets either.
Koi
Chuck Greene
>>>"By the way , when I called the number to check on the trip status last night, I didn't get a recorded message, I got a real person!"<<<
Then you spoke to the source in person. When I spoke to him,
he was trying to do the recorded message, but the phone kept ringing.
>>GG<< :-) ~ Sparky
:>) ~ Sparky
Chuck Greene
;>) ~ Sparky
Koi
The current mechanical obstruction sensing system works wwll enough in most cases. Just remember Fenagle's 3rd law of engineering:
Anyone who believes that a device is foolproof underestimates the abilities of a fool.
We will then try to go onto the property where scrapped trains are stored to verify persistent rumors that 5 R110B's disguised as Q cars are awaiting final disposition.
After that matter is settled, we will walk north for about 3 miles and head into Red Hook, where we will form a human chain around the warehouse where Bob Diamond's 3 trolley cars are stored.
At around 4 PM, we will walk to Jay Street Borough Hall and take the first A train going to Far Rockaway.. By the time we get out there, it is hoped that the blizzard will strand our train somewhere south of Broad Channel station. Be prepared to spend at least 2 or 3 days aboard the train, while we wait to be rescued.
I don't think so!
BMTman apologizes for any confusion caused by Paul's hasty post. The tour will meet on the L platform at Atlantic & Snediker Aves at 5:30 A.M.; cost will be $25 for Transit Museum members, $20 for non-members, and $35 for BERA members. Credit card numbers or R-11 numberboards will also be accepted as payment.
See ya bright 'n early at Atlantic Ave. Don't forget the earmuffs and long johns!
Right... that gets a PRIVATE tour, ifyaknowwhaddimean.
That's probably up to the current holder of the sign ;)
So, how many people showed up?
Regards,
Jimmy
Also, it's 5 boroughs. The Bronx, Kings County(Brooklyn), Queens County(Queens), New York County(Manhattan), The Bronx, and Richmond County(Staten Island).
So, you are going to leave out the Christie Connection, the 63rd Street Tunnel, and the Rockaway Lines. How (pray tell) will you simulate the Myrtle, the Third Avenue and the Lexington (Brooklyn) Lines?
Perhaps you ment to say the "system Proper" or something like that.
Still as has been said, you cannot set a record until Coney Island is rebuilt.
Elias
Also, could I just have a list of which areas to avoid, and assuming I don't avoid them, what should I do to stay stay in those stations and on the trains?
A list probably wouldn't be much help. Generally speaking so called "safe" stations might be bad. And "good" ones might have trouble. Weekends and weekdays between 10am and 2pm might be good times to take pics. Just keep an eye out for potental trouble.
Take a ride over the Manhattan Bridge. It would be nice in a R-40 Slant.
I remember the first time I rode into Brooklyn. Coming from Long Island, I did not know one part of the city from another. But I heard about Brooklyn. I rode across the river through the Cranberry Tunnel perhaps on an (A) train, but it was more likely an (E) train. As soon as the train got to the platform in Brooklyn, I chickened out and took the next train back to Manhattan.
Later on I found the BMT, and that changed everything. The R-27s were the slickest things I had ever seen. And then a (Q) train came into the station, with brand new Brightliners!
The Brighton Line to Coney Island would have been my first real venture into Brooklyn.
After that, I'd find was to get into the city by myself to ride on the Subway Trains.
Elias
HMMMMmmm.... maybe I think so too, but I seldom rode the (T) train, or the (TT) for that matter. I alwys took the (Q) or the (N).
The (D) has never yet run on the West End.
It had, since Christie run on the Brighton,
Before that it ran on the CULVER LION.
Elias
The reason, the west end line is slow and the many local stops contribute's to the image. Adding a few reguarly express runs out of bay parkway would reduce the load on the express buses which there is no room to and any more runs. The buses run like every 2 minutes. A new express station would need to be added on the el possibly and better feeder bus service
Although the express service would only save 5 minutes, it would go a long way to attracting more riders and making the ride more comfortable. The doors opening and closing at the local stops lets the heat in in the summer and the cold in the winter plus adds to the stress level.
Yes, but the reduced frequency of trains would offset the 5 minutes. People would take just as long getting to work, and more of it would be standing on the platform rather than in the train.
This assumes that they have a schedule. Spend some time at Main Street (rush hour is better than any comedy) and you realise that they are playing by the ear.
Arti
That means virtually no waiting, better than W or even less frequent express.
Arti
The limiting factors on the amount of West End service that can be provided are the capacity of the line in the two-track section between Ninth Avenue and 36th Street, and the capacity of whatever routings West End trains take when they're not on the West End Line itself. The two-track section is unlikely to be able to handle more than thirty trains (more likely less than thirty) an hour, and once the trains are off the West End Line they have to share track capacity with services coming from/heading to other lines, so the West End component can definitely not be thirty trains.
Are the West End trains overcrowded now? I haven't heard that they are (maybe someone here has more information than I do). If they're not, then the existing number of trains would simply be split, which means that running express service would mean running less local service, which means that a significant portion of West End ridership (to wit, those people at the local stations) would lose part of its service, something they probably would not prefer. Adding an express station/converting a local station to express might help, but the more stops the express makes, the less "express" it is.
As to express bus riding in the area, yes, it is heavy -- for express buses, which have 57 seats and are not scheduled to carry standees (although it happens). A single subway car (yes, with standees) can carry far more than 57 people, and ten of them (the equivalent, anyway) are on every W train and eight of them are on every M train. As for there 'not being room to add any more runs,' bus schedule adjustments are made all the time and some of them involve the addition of runs (not that there's a direct correlation between the number of runs and the amount of service -- it's more complicated than that).
David
Probably they mainly ride the Sea Beach in the morning and the West End in the evening.
On what basis would such a claim be made?
David
On what basis would such a claim be made?
The simple observation that it takes less effort to walk down stairs than walk up them.
David
Actually, that transfer point is very useful if you live south of it, especially coming from Manhattan. It allows you to take the longest portion of your ride on one train, whether you're on Sixth Avenue or Broadway. I used to do it all the time when the B train had the best express routing into Brooklyn. The stroll down to the Sea Beach platforms was nothing. You knew you were in home turf, just taking a breather.
For Boro Park and Bensonhurst, yeah, the transfer matters.
David
I'll agree with another of your points too. I am in 100% agreement with running peak service down the middle track of the West End line. But it would be counter-productive to reduce service on all the local stations in this scheme. And I'm not sure if the 2004 changes to south Brooklyn lines also mean two services on the West End. When the M train ran on it that would have allowed those, say, one out of every three B trains to run express, the M taking up the slack on the peak local. Or something along those lines. So it is feasible, IMO, IF another service is tied in.
Anyway, I think Bay Parkway and 62nd/New Utrect and 9th Avenue stations are deep enough into Brooklyn, and spaced far apart enough to warrent a limited stop operation. It would be a catalyst for neighborhood developments for decades to come, thereby increasing the taxes paid to the city.
I can think of no better way to give these Brooklyn neighborhoods a pathway to increased livability. They're in good shape now, by and large. But we have to keep thinking for twenty years from now, for 50 years from now. Imagine Queens Blvd from Kew Gardens to Queens Plaza as all local stops.
N Broadway Line
I have not worked out what the expected rush hour crowding levels might be but it would appear empirically that the West End trains should be less crowded than most other Brooklyn services.
The reason, the west end line is slow and the many local stops contribute's to the image. Adding a few reguarly express runs out of bay parkway would reduce the load on the express buses which there is no room to and any more runs. The buses run like every 2 minutes. A new express station would need to be added on the el possibly and better feeder bus service
Although the express service would only save 5 minutes, it would go a long way to attracting more riders and making the ride more comfortable. The doors opening and closing at the local stops lets the heat in in the summer and the cold in the winter plus adds to the stress level.
The third rail arcing looked amazing. Made me wish I had a camera too.
Reminds me of physics lab...
Probably ozone. Keep back as much as possible -- hat stuff is not exactly healthy to inhale.
The first car of R142A's on the 6 were competing hard against the R142 for "best light show award".
I might, if the temptation to stay in bed and get some rest doesn't win me over...
This Is What I Live For...
This Is What I Live For...
This Is What I Live For...
BTW... I like the new postings in the gallery.
This Is What I LIve For...
A, C, E, F, M(?), N, Q, W, 5.
7, Q, 5, M...
Those are my picks!
I might go out and take some pics also on Sunday...depending on how cold it is
The bigger test will be what happens tomorrow, since train frequency dies down overnight and the last I heard was that the snow is expected to intensify during that time.
CG
CG
I should try to take pics of my home station Massapequa Park!
Michael
Washington, DC
David
Even so, I hope the Daily News is wrong and the MTA will be given the funding to at least go to 125th in the first phase, and that the first phase will take less than ten years. Heck, they can go to 116th Street just by building the stations, which (according to the MTA website) will be cut and cover anyway, since the areas between them are already built. This work has nothing to do with the TBM, and therefore nothing to do with staging, just money.
The MTA is following the wishes of its constituents. The ManhattanBorough Prez, the City Council and the state legislators representing NY agree on this sequence.
I had believed that the SAS was just a stalking horse to get major surburban improvements built while promising the City of New York something it would never get. After East Side Access was funded, you'd get the "unfortunate" loss of federal money for SAS due to the deficit, and state money due to the debt Pataki loaded on the system. Statements by the NYC Partnership, Hevesi, and the FTA over the past year seem to be laying the groundwork for this. I still believe it is a possible, if not likely, outcome.
If, however, the Stubway is funded in anti-city Republican state and federal administrations, we will certainly get it (unlike the N to LGA which was funded by not built). And, if the Stubway is built with a stub pointing south, it would be very likely that the rest would follow eventually, perhaps when a Democratic administration coincided with an energy crisis or a decision to do something about global warming.
Much as I would personally like an SAS south of 63rd St, I think global warming would be reduced considerably more by investing in extensions to the E and F.
I'm sure the MTA number-crunchers have realized the same thing we have; there can be no meaningful Bronx extension of the SAS, or service enhancements to the outer boros, if the SAS remains 2 tracks. Furthermore, a 2 track mainline in Manhattan will be a lack-of-re-routability nightmare. The stubway could be part of a plot to convince New Yorkers that four tracks are needed.
The MTA in convinced that the 2 track SAS will operate at capacity pretty much from day one. I agree with this. Now, let's say the build the stubway, north of 63rd, and open it up with Q service. People flock to it, and suddenly it's running at capacity. A popular, successful, PACKED SAS will give the MTA the factual muscle to go before the Money People and polliticians and say: Look, we built four stations and it's already running AT capacity, AND making money! We NEED to construct a 4 track line!' This would give the MTA the moral high ground, and facts to back them up, to request money to expand this now-packed stubway to 4 tracks when they extend the SAS to full length.
If this really is what's going on, good luck, MTA. I don't care how sneaky you need to be, just getthat 4 track trunk built!
Then again, I might just be jumping at shadows. :)
Their traffic projections don't support this. Their projected traffic allows for growth without exhausting the capacity. Don't forget, these are IND sized trains, with a new modern signaling system. They could run 40 tph of 600' trains on 2 tracks - that's just about what the Lex runs right now on 4 tracks.
Furthermore, a 2 track mainline in Manhattan will be a lack-of-re-routability nightmare.
True, but nightmare is too strong a word. The L train is pretty reliable and it's 10 (?) miles of 2 tracks. We're only talking 3.5 miles of 2 tracks under 2nd Ave.
The L is far from reliable. Every time they need to do work on it, which is often, they have to shut it down from 8th Ave back to Broadway Junction, which they'll be doing again next weekend.
A 4 track SAS would introduce a LOT of reroutability to the IND system. If it were hooked into the Concourse line in Harlem, it would provide an alternative route for Bronx-bound trains when there's a police investigation or fire on CPW, like what happened yesterday. With an interlocking in the Christie St area, it would provide an alternate route through Manhattan for F trains, thus eliminating West 4th St as a single point of failure for the IND system in Manhattan.
A 2 track line is tough to work with during even routine maintenance. Even simply introducing a 3rd track would allow track segments to be taken out of service without affecting service too much. Remember, as a 24-hour system, NYC doesn't have the ability to handle maintenance during nights and weekends without affecting service, as other 2-track-centric systems such as London or Washington do.
And the L doesn't need to be shut down all the way from Bway Jct to 8th Ave for every GO. Many GOs on the L are less onerous. I suspect recent ones have been major just because they're working in lots of different places.
Well, I'm not going to get into a screaming match over a matter of degree. :) I WILL say, though, that is a rail breaks on a full length, 2 track SAS around, say, 70th st, it'll seem fairly nightmare-esque.
That is because they are replacing the signal system, and the interlockings. If you are doing anything else, and have a sophisticated signal system, you can safely single track around the area being maintained in the off-peak hours. The new signals will make this feasible for the L. The SAS woiuld be built with that capability.
N Bway
David
The "L" was very poorly designed and under funded.
N Broadway Line
1. The observer's watch is wrong
2. The trains are being pushed out of Brighton Beach before their scheduled leaving times (possibly because of a slow-speed order down the line -- there is one between Avenue H and Newkirk Avenue on both northbound tracks because of falling leaves/snow/ice).
3. Too much running time has been allotted.
The 6:10 Q express from Brighton Beach is supposed to pass through Gold Street Interlocking (between DeKalb Avenue and the bridge) at 6:33-1/2 AM. The 5:53-1/2 AM W from Stillwell Avenue is supposed to pass through Gold Street Interlocking at 6:29-1/2 AM, four minutes before the Q express and two and a half minutes after the previous Q local. If the W is late, the Q express has to wait for it in order to maintain the proper order of trains passing through the interlocking, which also increase the chances that the W can leave Astoria on time on its next trip (the train is supposed to lay over for eight minutes, but I don't have the work program handy so I don't know which trip the crew's supposed to make).
As for the "terminal holdout" at 57th Street, the 6:10 AM Q express from Brighton Beach is due to arrive at 57th Street at 6:52 AM. Trains are not supposed to run early, so it is possible the Train Operator is holding the train outside the station to ensure an on-time, not early, arrival (either on his/her own or because the interlocking has not cleared after the last train left the terminal, which is scheduled for 6:49 AM).
David
I believe it is a combination of #2 and #3. However, my C/R rushes through the stations pretty quick. One day I timed dwell times (stoppage of train until acceleration begins) at each station and the average was 16 seconds!
Yes, the train I speak of is to enter 57 St at 6:52AM, but also arrive at 34th St at 6:48AM. 6:45 or 6:46AM however is the usual. Some days (like today) it is as early as 6:43. Since the W you speak of is supposed to get into Times Sq at 6:47 and it takes about 90 seconds on average to get from 34th to Times Sq, making the W arrive at 34th at 6:45-1/2AM or so by schedule, did the Q cut ahead in this case?
Now wait a minute. I don't have your exact schedule, but let's say my Q train should enter Times Sq at 6:49-1/2. That's 2 and 1/2 minutes behind the W, which is to get there at 6:47. But that W gets to Gold St. at 6:29-1/2? Yes, then, that IS too much allotted time. Why should the W pass by the interlocking 4 minutes before the Q, but then arrive at Times Sq only 2 and 1/2 minutes before the Q?
Now wait a minute. I don't have your exact schedule, but let's say my Q train should enter Times Sq at 6:49-1/2. That's 2 and 1/2 minutes behind the W, which is to get there at 6:47. But that W gets to Gold St. at 6:29-1/2? Yes, then, that IS too much allotted time. Why should the W pass by the interlocking 4 minutes before the Q, but then arrive at Times Sq only 2 and 1/2 minutes before the Q?"
--
I just realized I misread the schedule, that the W is supposed to enter Times Sq at 6:45. My mistake. It must be late very often then if my Q is kept waiting at the interlocking.
Per the schedule, the 6:10 AM Q express from Brighton Beach is supposed to leave 34th Street at 6:48 AM. The only station arrival times in the timetable (other than those followed immediately by a departure time) are at the arriving terminal. If this train leaves 34th Street significantly earlier than 6:48 AM, it is entirely possible that the interlocking south of 57th Street is blocked when the train gets there prior to entering the terminal, and so the train would have to sit outside the station waiting for the interlocking to clear.
David
David
You previously stated: If the W is late, the Q express has to wait for it in order to maintain the proper order of trains passing through the interlocking, which also increase the chances that the W can leave Astoria on time on its next trip (the train is supposed to lay over for eight minutes, but I don't have the work program handy so I don't know which trip the crew's supposed to make).
Ideally, if the train is that early, it should be held somewhere (42nd Street?) until its scheduled leaving time, unless the next train is right behind (one doesn't want to delay other trains that might not be running early).
If it is policy that early trains must wait at junctions to assure the proper order and a train is running early, then any close following trains must also be running early.
The real questions is why does the W nearly always run late?
Does the W leave on time? Does it have to wake up a tower for a line up prior to getting to Gold St?
Why does the Q appear to gain time on the W, after the Gold St merge? They are scheudled for the same running times over identical track, aren't they?
As a matter of fact, the W is given one minute LESS between departure at Gold Street Interlocking to departure at Times Square than the Q (local or express). My guess as to the reason is that the schedulemakers are giving the interlocking a chance to reset after the W has crossed from the express to the local north of the station (yeah, I know...the switch machine shouldn't take a minute to deploy).
All I know is, I ride the Q express interval following the one in question as far as DeKalb Avenue. When it's on time where I get it, it's usually slightly early at DeKalb; when it's not, it's late at DeKalb and I miss my connection. Maybe I should ride that interval's (express) leader :-)
David
David
On Mondays, remnants of weekend GO's often affect service. This past Monday, for instance, there was a parked express blocking the SB express track near Avenue U, forcing the first express to run down the local track. (I took the local that morning.)
The two situations ("David of Broadway"'s and mine) aren't completely analagous. My train (the 6:20 AM < Q > out of Brighton Beach) is a put-in and I'm getting on very early in the trip -- assuming it leaves Brighton Beach on time, it should leave my boarding location on time. Any train he gets going south had to have come up in service from Brooklyn; if it's very late coming in to 57th Street (or if the crew making his return trip was late) it might be late leaving 57th Street on its return trip.
David
I realize the situations aren't analogous -- I'm just posting my observations, in case anyone cares.
BTW (off-topic here, but in response to a discussion I had with David a few months back on BusTalk) -- I gave up on the B1 about a month ago. Service was somehow deteriorating even further. The straw that broke the camel's back was the ride one morning from Brighton Beach to KCC on the rear stairwell, shared with two others, before the big rush (I boarded around 7:25am at BB). I've been driving instead -- parking is easy to come by in the afternoon on E. 14th across the Belt from Sheepshead Bay, and I've been able to take the aforementioned express without fearing not being able to fit onto a bus.
If you're ever running late, on Mondays (but not this week) I have the next local - 0628. Come and say Hi.
After I get off my second diamond Q at 34th St N/B, I rush upstairs hoping to catch the 6:49 V (time of arrival at 34th) into Queens and there's hardly anybody on that.
Before the Q, I have to take the 1/9 from 86th to 42nd. That one's usually moderately crowded when I get on, unless it happened to connect with an express at 96th, in which case it's mostly empty.
Going home, as long as I linger a little while after the big 2:50 rush from KCC, Q locals are practically empty and Q expresses have seats for everyone, and they stay that way through Manhattan. I usually have to stand on the 1. If it's late, I'll grab the 2/3 at Atlantic (where it's so empty I can hear crickets, or maybe I'm getting that confused with the R-142 propulsion) to beat the crowds to the seats. Depending on my mood, either I'll fight my way onto a 1/9 at 72nd or I'll overshoot and come back on a (typically emptier) SB 1/9.
Classes ended last week. Finals, this week, are on a different schedule, and next semester I'm not scheduled to have an 8am class, so my farewell to the early morning Q was on Thursday (with a SubTalker at the controls).
Indeed, if the train has left its other stops on time or late and still arrives early, there is no damage. If it doesn't conflict with any other moves, signal it in early. Otherwise, it harms no-one for another train to cross in front.
By the way, Q trains usually only wait outside 57th if they can't get in, not just to say they observed the schedule.
David
This is a major problem on the buses where operators "fake" on time arrivals by making phantom stops (no one get on or off) to waist time. Thier is one run on the B3 where the driver waits 4 min 3 blocks from the dispatcher
The big problem with this is that it prevents the MTA from making accurate schedules because the data they use to make the scheduales is flawed. The only way you can make accurate scheduals is to have unbiased data over a long period of time (ride checks are useless)
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/breaking_news/story/143066p-126708c.html
Assuming the account is true, this moron falls asleep in the john after getting drunk, faults MTA for not finding him there, climbs out of the train, breaks ihis wrist and then wants to sue MTA for major damages because his wife isn't getting laid.
Again, assuming the account is accurate (maybe it's not???) I'd disbar the lawyer who took the case.
Need to brush up our public relations skills? :)
What's with you people? Why are you always against the individual and for the government agency? (Which is what Metro-North is, an angency of the State of New York.) So the guy had a couple too many and then called his wife instead of 911. So what? That makes him a moron? What a bunch of goodie-goodies you must be!
Hey and before anybody goes ballistic on me, I'm just thinking out loud! Okay? :-D
I could MAYBE see Metro-North picking up the tab for the emergency room and the orthopod if they found that the guy was obviousdly drunk when he got on and the crew member should really be thorough about checking the cars.
But what if the guy had been drinking but wasn't drunk yet getting on. Suppose he went to the John and downed a couple of cold ones and that passed the threshold for him? You can take liquor on the train without the crew knowing about it.
The request for $700,000 is frivolous on its face.
Its a negotiating tactic - sue for 700k and settle for 10 ;-)
At least I learned a new phrase from the article - "loss of consortium"...
If I were a juror I would award this man his meical bills and lost time starting from getting locked in the train to when he got out of the hospital.
Regards,
Jimmy
You must be new to SubTalk. There's a whole contingent on SubTalk who just hates people who get hurt by trains, people who are trying to protect their property values (NIMBY's), and posters who can't spell "proof". They love to call people who get hit at RR crossings morons and idiots. Yet these same people just love fare hikes (they can't get enough of them), and knock everyone against fare hikes.
And the funny thing is these people live in dream worlds where they think there is a chance of reviving completely dead lines like the Rockaway Branch which has less of a chance of opening than Salaam has a chance of taking a census taker's job.
What, they're dismantling it???
:)
NIMBYS often have no clue as to what actually supports their property values. NIMBY and "protect property values" are antonyms at least half the time.
"Yet these same people just love fare hikes (they can't get enough of them), and knock everyone against fare hikes. "
I was under the impression that a lot of "them" didn't like fare hikes at all. But fare hikes are preferable4 over lousy service.
"They love to call people who get hit at RR crossings morons and idiots."
It can be callous-sounding (and mea culpa, by the way). But the vast majority of these accidents are caused by the outright stupidity and arrogance of the victim. It's not like an auto accident, where the victim has no control over what the other driver does.
"than Salaam has a chance of taking a census taker's job."
Even you would have to admit that Salaam would be enthusiastic and a real go-getter about it. :0)
It can be callous-sounding (and mea culpa, by the way). But the vast majority of these accidents are caused by the outright stupidity and arrogance of the victim. It's not like an auto accident, where the victim has no control over what the other driver does.
--------------------end quote
Actually yea, most "accidents" on the side of the road I see everyday don't seem to be accidents to me, and I think you have to have the same amount of stupidity to rear-end the car square in front of you(it's a BIG object) as you do to get hit by a moving train most of the time.
Substitute SUV or pick-up truck or bus for car as needed. There's a reason why all these buses around here now have to have like 5 different flashing lights and strobes that light up when the bus hits the brakes, i mean it'd be like driving into a house!
Also, I'm not sure technically where to go with this exactly. But isn't the ticket a contract, and B) the train has a resonsibility to provide due care or duty or whatever. If that's the case, he's drunk, therefore can't enter the contract. And there is no *reasonable expectation* that a customer will be on the train after being in the yard. What were they supposed to do? Have an emergency ramp placed next to all the cars?
Check the empty train cars I can see, after that point, there is nothing reasonable the company can do for that instance.
Plus, any self-respecting lawyer would know to sue that bar/bartenders. Except for the fact the moron hurt himself breaking his drunken "fall", so that's probably a pretty bad angle to go with this, plus there was no property damage.
Basically, if he proves a cause and effect of negligence of not checking the rail cars, he might get something. If they prove he's in the bathroom, he won't see a nickel, or anything else anyway. But we're talking NY state aren't we, so I guess anythings possible unfortunately.
And traindude made a great point. He used his cell-phone!! It's his own fault for not calling someone and breaking his wrist!
Why, exactly?
The damages sought are, as usual, ridiculous but the fact remains that the MNRR crew failed to clear their train when they took it out of service. This is negligence regardless of how drunk, or stupid, the passenger might, or might not, have been.
There are a number of people who rely on their wrist for sex. (Not me though, because my mom told me I'd go blind)
Michael
Washington, DC
Anyway, in a case like this, how's this for an idea: A bulb outside the bathroom door that lights up when someone is inside and the door is locked. Of course, that would only work if: 1) the moron remembers to lock the door, and 2) the mechanical department keeps up with any bulbs that blow out.
"Osama Binn Laden's brother" Joel BINN woke up in a empty train. Admitted the press his is INDEED a junken "JACK-ASS MORON" not just Lied to his lawyer stating that he is not drunk at the time he blocked out but then MTA sue $700,000 for stupdity injuries and his denial alligation. This stories is nothing but A BIG TIME FRAUD and a BIG HAHAHAHAHA. I'm laughing because!! I couldn't believe there are such DUMB ASSES out there in this society like him, and that "FAT WHORE" from the bronx who trys to sue MC D for transforming that whore into a "FAT SLUTTY LAZY SKANK ASS SHAMOO" and That "DUMB SKANKY SLUTTY TRAMP" sue Dunken Donut for her own stupidity in burning her precious legs from cup of hot coffee. Couldn't believe myself knowing that there r so many TRASHY GOLD-DIGGING JACK-ASS SKANKY MORONS out there in this society. When I see these LOW-LIVE TRASHES on the news, I just had a good laugh knowing how REALLY DUMB THESE POOPS WERE. Too the bad The World Guiness Book doesn't enough pages to cover "THE WORLD DUMB ASSES PERPS ON GUINESS RECORD.
Errrr, not for nothing but I think you mean Mickey D's, don't you?
Many years ago my supervisor at the time fell asleep in a LIRR train and ended up in the yards... She was drunk after the office Christmas Party that day...
We would never have known but she came back to work the next day and bragged about it...
The damages this turkey is demanding are crazy but there's no way MN should get off scott free for letting someone hang around on an out-of-service train.
Gee, the possibility of someone planting a time-delayed bomb never occurred to you?
When a train goes into a yard it had better be empty. This time it wasn't a problem but taking a casual attitude to access control is simply an incident waiting to happen.
You can't worry about every little bomb, kook or terrorist. If they try, they can *always* do it. Ain't nothing you, Bush or Ashcroft can do about it needer.
Live your life well, help others, and the good Lord will collect your ticket sooner or later. And there ain't nuttin you can do about *that* needer.
Elias
And I'll be happy to sell you some adult diapers :)
First, the guys does not admit he was drunk (he said he had a couple cocktails) he says he merely fell sound asleep and Second he disputes that he locked himself in a bathroom. In fact, his lawyer says it was Metro-North employees that put that in their report, the implication being, they made it up to try and provide cover for the train crew. Think about this for a minute:. How does Metro-North explain knowing the guy is drunk and locked in a bathroom when they didn't even know he'd been left on the train until he walked into the North White yard office 20+ minutes after the train tied up? The dumbass is the one that wrote the report. The guy's lawyer is gonna say, if you knew he was drunk and locked in a bathroom, why did you leave him in there? Or is that part of the report a lie? Ziiinnngggg...there goes Metro-North's case.
Hey, more important, we have a s-o-c-i-e-t-y here! We all bear at least some responsibility for one another. It's called civilization, guys. Trouble is, they accuse him of being drunk and right away it becomes a character issue. What if he'd had a heart attack and been left on the train? Let me guess, so what, right? Let him die. Everybody's on their own. Survival of the fittest. It's not gonna happen to me so why should I care if it happens to someone else, isn't that the way it goes? Beautiful!
Easy. If the guy walks up to the cop and the yard supervisor reeking of alcohol and unsteady on his feet, what do you suppose he was doing on the train?
"I had a couple of cocktails." Yeah, right, LOL!
"The guy's lawyer is gonna say, if you knew he was drunk and locked in a bathroom, why did you leave him in there?"
It's certainly possible the report was not well written. I haven't seen the actual text of it. But our passenger has every reason to deny responsibility for his own actions, and try to pin it on the crew. He has as much if not more motivation than the crew does. His lawyer can claim cover-up, but that's BS.
"Hey, more important, we have a s-o-c-i-e-t-y here! We all bear at least some responsibility for one another. It's called civilization, guys."
Right. And he can start by not getting drunk on the train.
"Trouble is, they accuse him of being drunk and right away it becomes a character issue. "
That's an unfortunate byproduct of the adversarial legal system we have.
"What if he'd had a heart attack and been left on the train? "
Then a train crew would hasve found him dead the next morning, and this would have been a completely different ballgame.
I agree that perhaps the train crew wasn't thorough enough but your conclusion is nonsensical.
If he could call his wife on the cell phone, he couldn't call 911? Being trapped on a train would qualify as an emergency, now wouldn't it? Instead he decided to take things into his own hands and hurt himself when he could have been rescued by police. Too bad says me. If he didn't have a cell phone, he might have had a case, since he would have legitimately been trapped, but he ruined that defense by calling his wife.
You made that part up, right? ;-I
Did you miss the "if" in that sentence? You asked the "how" question and I showed you how it would be plausible.
The fact that the Daiuly News didn't specifically mention it doesn't mean anything.
But I assume you're intelligent enough so as to not have tro be spoonfed everything, right? :0)
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/143036p-126551c.html
Compared to that, a game in which you defend the WTC against airplanes seems almost wholesome. :(
It was heavily criticized and everyone was shocked, but it's still readily available.
One could be free to boycott it, of course.
In order for a boycott to have any meaning at all, one must be convinced, or convince others, to not do something they otherwise would do.
IOW, if someone were to hand me a petition to boycott chocolate-covered ants because it is cruelty to insects, it wouldn't have a great impact.
Truly disgusting.
NECROCRATS. I'm trying to popularize that word.
I rode the eclinator on my way to protest against the necrocrats.
You mean Missile Command
Regards,
Jimmy
Don't go labeling every French person with a broad brush like that. That would be the equivalent of saying that every American lives in a trailer and screws their siblings like on Jerry Springer.
Sickos exist within every nationality.
Le regards,
Jeemmiee
Getting off my political soapbox and going back to traintalk!!!
Maybe George W Bush has something to answer for in well and truly pissing off the rest of the civilised world in the time since 9/11. The USA had the sympathy of the entire world after 9/11 and Bush has utterly squandered it by his sheer lack of understanding of what diplomacy is.
I dunno - last time I checked, they were very pro-Guadeloupian.
As for George Bush he is a totally clueless moron.
Is he clueless or is he malevolent? I sincerely hope he's the former.
I have a feeling that that's no longer the case since the Guadeloupians voted "no" on self-governing and remaining under French control. The French are trying to go PPP on everything......and apparently haven't learned from the British.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Oh well...at least the park itself is getting done.
Im not for either side here (not knowing all the details), but would hate to scrap historic equipment.
He needs to let go and work with someone with a chance to make this happen.
You would not find anyone more enthusiastic about Brooklyn than the boro president, Marty Markowitz, but where is the public groundswell to keep BHRA going? Where are the council members would could benefit, the community groups, corporate sponsorship, fund/membership drives? There's a lot of basic ground work that was never done - it seemed like it would have to survive on fares alone, and that fantasy disappeared by the 1940s.
To do this, you either need to build or join an institution with lots of skills available, or else be independently wealthy and buy what you need. Neither happened.
I hope somehow the park route has legs, and the trolleys preserved somehow for the decade or so needed to get something in place. I can dream.
He needs to make one more deal to truck these babies out - perhaps to the Coney Island yard, where many Branford cars were stored years ago?
Not Branford, TMNY > 1000, Clark PCC & BQT 8361. Branford cars
in the museums earliest years were stored at the James Street
Car House of CONNCO in New Haven. >>GG<<
:>) ~ Sparky
Again, I am dreaming....
He was merely correcting your previous statement about certain
cars, such as BQT 1000, which were stored at Coney Island.
These cars were being stored for TMNY, which has had several
homes and false starts. These cars have no connection to Branford.
Oslo #3
MBTA #3299, 3303, 3321
Shaker Heights #51-55, 60-62, 67-70
Vulcan 20T switcher, Army Corps of Engineers #4353
Regards,
Jimmy
Never heard anything like it
I can't remember when was the last time I heard a perfect door chime on the R46s
Believe it or not, there are some R46s that have healthy-sounding door chimes. The rest have chimes that sound like they are about to die, are dying, or are just plain dead. Includes some that have just half the chime or no chime at all on one side of the train.
I've ridden on that car many, many times.
Many of the cars at Corona don't have chimes at all.
Peace,
ANDEE
corresponding link
I was planning to rant about the absolutely poor service of the <6> over the past few weeks, but am just too tired, stressed out and worn down from all the crap of the <6> lately. So I had to take the local home today, then freeze my behind off for an additional 25 minutes for a 'looks worse than the 4' packed <6>.... holy crap it's really windy up there, and there's no wall to stand against....
*anyway*
Who the heck do you think this one is?
Reference 1
Reference 2
The sound quality is excellent.
It's a great recorder that also does pretty well in the classroom in recording history teachers that give super hard tests and speak a lot more than they write on the board.
I use the voice-recording feature that came with my Buslink Mp3 player. After an accidental drop three weeks ago, it can no longer play mp3 files. It can't even detect them. All I can do is use it to record. I've yet to use it in the classroom mainly because I have classes where the teachers either give notes or they don't give notes (but I can still get by without taking any).
With what I have, it's difficult to eliminate background noise but it does a good job of picking up sound.
Enjoy!
Much better than the overheads for the display!
This Is What I Live For...
Nice!
Ahh, thanks. It must be getting ready to use it's flux capacitor to catapult to the Alabama launchpad/landing site.
And it seemed to bounce off the tunnel walls, as seen through an open window on an IRT from the R17 era.
But I can imagine how that would be the ultimate in subway interest for some people.
CAN SOMEONE PROVIDE PROOF THAT EITHER THEY ARE THE SAME PERSON, OR THEY'RE NOT????!!!????
I actually like the announcements for the 5 train. :-)
I heard the "Manhattan bound 6 local train" from across the platform once, and the mystery remains: Is Jessica Ettinger the one behind them?
Now, I did find out what the "Electronics third gaps car in service" was: The ultra updated 5 trains make an announcement when the strip map is turned on from "Route change, this map is not in use", which is Chalie Pellet saying," The Electronic Strip maps are in service". If only i was recording when he said it... :((
-The transfers, which are now done by the bitch (except on the <6> in the Bronx; Charlie still does those)
-ONE train identification is done by the bitch for some reason: "This is a Pelham Bay Park-bound, (6) local train."
-The Stand Clear, which has always been Charlie
So if anyone is intrested in helping please email me.
Andy
;>) Sparky
Plus, the wheels need to be trued. Next time you're up I'll
give you a file...get to work!
I took a train to New Brunswick (NJT was running on time at 1:30pm) and then took two hours get across the river to the Piscataway campus. A lot of people were going home right in the middle of the snowstorm and there were numerous low-speed collisions blocking traffic.
Why is it that people cant remember from one year to the next that snow is slippery?
Chuck Greene
That's what happens with the digital camera I've used recently.
Check this one out: an R40-M Slant!
Any idea what causes it? IIRC my old HP didn't do that, it just came out incredibly blurred.
With film, once the shutter clicks, it captures the image in an instant (unless it's one of those where you have the option of controlling the shutter speed). All the "rows" are captured simultaneously. Digital camers go row-by-row.
I wonder if there is a digital camera with an "action" mode, for this type of photography.
It's called a fast shutter speed.
Crappy camera design. Decently designed cameras take an exposure then disable the image sensor (either electronically or with a shutter) before reading out the image. The result of shooting high-motion is the same as with film cameras: a blur. What you're seeing is suggestive of a cheap digicam that is essentially a cut-down video camera rather than something designed for taking still pictures.
You have a Mustek DV-3000??????
I'm not having any trouble viewing these great photos!
Regards,
Jimmy
Here's my suggestion of stations:
GCT
59th st
70th st
86th st
116th st
125th st
and then maybe further north from there?
If not all those stops, then this:
GCT
59th St
86th St
125th St
42nd Street
59th Street
72nd Street
86th Street
110th Street*
125th Street
*There was also a 110th Street station before as well(gone now), maybe they can make a new station for that if there is a demand for it.
It will go north to the Bronx, where many of the stations there currently have poor service.
For who, in the midst of projects?
Arti
People in projects don't need nor use premium-priced transit.
Arti
Arti
Arti
But the station shells in the tunnels are not full length. A major construction project on Park Avenue? Might as well try to build the 5th Avenue El. But if you didn't lengthen the platforms, you'd have to hold the train while people moved to the right car. This would radically reduce the rush hour capacity of MetroNorth.
The one way to get more out of the commuter rail lines in the city is to build the SAS as a premium-priced, FRA compatible line that links them all together, then have it form the core of a whole premium-priced network within the city. Some have suggested this.
In any event, there is no subsitute for the SAS.
The proposal sounds good. Although the diminuitive length of those closed Park Avenue stations will be a problem. I'm wondering if the TPH in the tunnel would allow for shorter trains (4 cars?) running a tripper-type service. Shuttles running all day long, 42nd Street to the Hudson and Harlem in-city stops.
And if that were accomplished it would be a good time to get serious on a Co-Op City station, on the New Haven line. Tie it all in with the ESA LIRR connection to GCT...there's your premium-priced network.
I regret that it seems as though a station on the existing LIRR line into PS, say, at Second Ave, is not in the cards. Or, that no east side stops on the new 60th tunnel route to GCT were contemplated.
Uh, sorry, guess I meant 63rd St. tunnel.
And many riders have 7-day or 30-day unlimiteds to cover their weekday usage. To them, weekend subway rides are free.
... and the City Ticket doesn't get you a transfer to anything else. If you're not going to someplace right near a MNRR or LIRR station, you're SOL.
False statement. Metro-North's reverse-peak morning trains carry maids, nannies and other servants from the Bronx to their clients in Westchester County.
As well as lots of office workers.
As if they have an option.
Arti
Arti
You do realize that you are -- in effect -- suggesting that the cost of an LIRR or MNR ride within city limits be 50 cents. Or 83 cents if you use the $1.67 fare approximation.
CG
CG
Why not just make it free? Or better yet, pay people to ride.
OK -- tongue out of cheek now.
To be a bit Clinton-esque, it all depends on what your definition of "make this work" is. Different people have different hopes for City Ticket, but I don't believe that the people who dreamed it up intended for it to make the commuter railroads an integrated part of the city's bus/subway system.
CG
The experience in London has usually been that main line trains do not attract many passengers if there is an underground (tube) line nearby. That's because the underground runs more frequently and serves more places in the central business district.
11 TPH isn't much, but 33 TPH in the off-peak direction is a lot for a suburban line. I wouldn't be surprised if some of those trains run empty. It seems unlikely that they run more peak hour peak direction trains than necessary, so they are probably quite crowded already without making additional stops. But there may not be the capacity for additional trains on the single track going in the off-peak direction. Another possibility would be to have two tracks in each direction; two tracks should be able to handle 16 or 17 TPH with good signaling, possibly with some capacity to a few more trains.
Of course I am only guessing about all this and someone more knowledgable should consider the capacity issues.
There's no demand for off-peak direction on Park Av anyway.
Arti
Not by passengers but by trains. All (or most) trains must both arrive and depart!
There's plenty of yard space in GC. 2 levels from lex to madisson.
Arti
Arti
CG
I suspect the Harlem and Hudson lines are a little emptier inbound during the evening rush hour, since there are fewer workplaces out toward White Plains and Tarrytown, but with upper Manhattan as a trendy residence, don't count on the reverse trains staying empty forever. And remember that the yards are being moved out of GCT.
CG
You're right. I think the idea here is that at least some people will opt for Metro-North, if priced right (CityTicket?), to get off the Lex's sardine cans.
And just because people are poor doesn't mean there aren't snobs among them. Snobbery will place a number of them on Metro-North.
I feel the same way for any of the in-city commuter lines. It's not so much purposely avoiding the subway as it is maintaining my own "personal infrastructure and operating system" in a way that minimizes, uh, glitches. And plenty of people do it now.
If and when the new LIRR station in L.I.C. opens, it will be interesting to see how the presence of a full time LIRR stop there affects the in-city ridership.
I think this will be almost as useful a secondary station as Woodside is. Actually, better, since all the Q.B., Astoria and Flushing lines stop nearby. I can hardly wait to see just how this station will be used. Obviously, all the E.S.A. trains, or most of `em, will stop there. All in all, this is gonna be real good for Long Island City.
City ticket is only on weekends. The Lex isn't sardine can full on weekends.
In rush hour, adding more stops to even a few selected trains would delay the trip for the tens of thousands of people traveling further.
If there were 6 tracks between 138th St and GCT, this idea might work. But there aren't.
Off peak, the Lex isn't at full capacity. And Metro North trains aren't empty; they're amazingly full.
On peak, Metro North can't have selected trains make more stops without adding delays to all trains on both outer tracks.
Yuppies don't live on Park Ave. You need to have inherited wealth or many years of huge income to afford to buy there.
Thanks! But what would you call a line running below the 4-5-6 Line?
I'd worry that running that far south would duplicate Lower Manhattan traffic
Maybe - but the point is really to get it across to West Side without too many horrible slow curves.
My reccomendation to the GreatOne is to get out a bit more. Though I don't live in New York, I seem to be more familiar with the ridership patterns on the subway lines he claims to use.
I ride the 6 train every time I am in New York. I have been on it at just about every hour of the day from 7 AM until 1 AM on every single day of the week at different times throughout the year. While I do concede I am not riding it on a regular basis, I have been on it more than enough times to say I know what I'm talking about when it comes to that train.
Now as usual time to defend myself
---
When the GreatOne suggested this absurd plan, his thinking was he would remove people like me going from the Upper East Side going downtown
---
As you can see this plan is NOT absurd
Again only some people would switch, people going below 42nd Street would be better off on the 4/5/6. And that is also the purpose of the SAS, which would be a good thing... Also think about the area which lost the 3rd Avenue Elevated in the Bronx. Manhattan has it bad as well with the overcrowded delayed 4/5/6 line which gets delayed all to often(though it seems to be a bit better lately than a few months ago).
---
Meanwhile, the Upper East Side in his view is some greedy giant which couldn't spare any of its space on the system for the Bronx
---
This plan is supposed to HELP to Upper East Side and the MTA by getting some people who would normally take cabs on MNR. More revenue = better chance of keeping MetroCard discounts and less service cuts.
Of course it was the upper east side that partially caused the Lexing situation with their No-el, No-el, this street has no el crap and the First Avenue Association and later the city for shutting down the 3rd Avenue Elevated. And before you start thinking that this is just another complaint only about the Bronx THINK AGAIN, this includes Manhattan as well, considering the people on 3 Av there aren't even going to get a replacement, they have to walk 1/2 Avenue over to squeeze on the Lex, or walk 1 block over to get an SAS which won't even be built anytime soon, plus the Avenues were made one way, so the buses cannot fully replace the els. See there I mentioned a problem that is NOT IN THE BRONX.
Greedy Giant? ok, now you are taking things out of proportion here. I mentioned Yuppies and people in cabs having this as an option.
-----
Pelham service is sufficient enough on weekends, as are the Bronx expresses during the week
-----
8 minutes sufficient? 5-6 minutes is ok, but 8 is kind of excessive, especially in the summer with Orchard Beach and the numerous shoppers at Bay Plaza packing the Bx12 at Pelham Bay Park(year round). And I'm sure many of them take the #6 there.
And as for the Bronx Expresses, did you realize that there was almost a cut(which I was NOT the only one to speak about), which would have been bad, considering a LOT of people are on the 6 between 8-9 at times, I know, I have seen this. Most people get off at the express stops, so the evening express is justified (as some others will tell you if you want to go at it some more in another one of my threads). Then there is the 7 express which runs until 10:07 PM setting a record for latest running peak express, which is good for Queens(and no don't think that I want the 6 to run express until 10:00 either(from Brooklyn Bridge), since knowing you, you might try to bring that up).
---
THERE IS NO REASON FOR THIS MNRR SERVICE
---
You have your opinion, but this would help City Ticket, which you may not realize.
-----
He seems to think that the Bronx is some poor forgotten borough with insufficent transportation resources
-----
Each of the boroughs have insufficient transportation resources in certain areas.
Queens, Archer Avenue area getting screwed out of train service, The Rockaways with poor service, treated like stepchildren, poor running DOT buses, although they do have the off peak fares. Many areas having to rely on buses period.
Bronx, Fordham area with no rapid transit after getting screwed out of rapid transit service. Many areas having to relay on slow artic buses which can never get filled fast enough, or which doesn't show up.
Staten Island No direct train service to Manhattan, slow ferry service(although free). Has to go to Brooklyn in order to get to Manhattan(except via ferry)
Brooklyn parts of it without subway service, Dean Street closed on Franklin Avenue Shuttle, Culver Shuttle discontinued.
Manhattan Far west side got screwed out of train service after 9th Avenue Elevated closed, no 10th Avenue Subway(or anything near Javits Center except 2 buses), no train lines in Alphabet City.
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It is NOT viable or else when Villone brought it up, it would have probably been enacted upon.
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The biggest problems would be slowing down some MNR trains on the outer tracks, but in terms of potential, it is useful. Again any problems can be dealt with.
Now you can respond by saying how GreatOne thinks this, or how I am the only one to use certain street names, or thinking I'm the only one to do this, and blah, blah, blah along with your usual crap.
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Like I and others have said, this idea would help so few people
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Not sure about that I mean Mt Vernon West would agree with me, since I also planned to let those people get cheaper MNR fares as well.
And there were other options proposed in this thread which would give Westchester residents easier access to Midtown without paying a double fare.
All of these things add up to more than just a few people
Not to mention that if MNR gets a Yankee Stadium station, well that would help things for some people as well, to relieve the extremely packed 4 train.
And if MNR goes to Penn Station, then my plan will have a better chance of working.
Well City Ticket will begin soon, if it is a success, then some "changes" may be slowly made, if not, we can all squeeze on the 4/5/6 and think about the broken promises regarding 2nd and 3rd Avenue services.....
And perhaps you have some suggestion how this problem would be dealt with in the rush hour? I can't think of one, other than telling tens of thousands of commuters that their trip will just have to take a few minutes longer.
Of course next time I need to transfer from Amtrak to MNRR, something I've only had to do once, I will wish MNRR stopped at Penn.
Agreed. However:
1. Only 40% of GCT trains are New Haven Line. Only 30% of that 40% (at most) will get diverted to Penn because east midtown is a far bigger office destination than southwest midtown. That makes a 12% reduction in trains, some of which will probably be offset by growth in office jobs by 2012.
2. The inbound local track is used for outbound trains in the PM rush so that Hudson line trains don't have to cross over at 138th St.
3. A train making local stops on Park Ave will take maybe 6 minutes longer than an express. That means the next train following on that track will have to be 9 minutes behind instead of 3 minutes behind. In other words, the train uses approx. as much track capacity as 3 ordinary trains.
4. People who live on the upper east side and commute to Westchester can already take the Lex to 125th and transfer to MNRR there. Many do that now that Harlem is perceived as far safer to walk through in the daytime than it was in the 1970s. Unless you live extremely close to one of the proposed Park Ave local station, this will be quicker anyway.
Sure, alot of people work on the Grand Central area, but how many are coming from 86th Street? How many are willing to walk to a MNRR station at 86th Street? Is the number willing to do that large enough to make the service viable? THAT is the quintessential question and the answer is that the plan is NOT viable.
1. Not everyone would be using it to go to GCT. Yea, a few would be, but that's not all. A lot would be using it for reverse commuting, which atleast here, is something that does exist.
2. If people can walk to the lex, they can walk to park av. It's only one block away, and for some, that means one block LESS of walking.
I still maintain my position and I think AIM agrees with me, and I doubt our stance will change.
BTW, <6> service is FAR from sufficient. Maybe if you took it just ONCE in your life, i would hear something coming out of your mouth besides "BuzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzCRAPbuzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz".
THe schedules changed alright...
I've seen 30-minute service gaps at stations many times busier than any on the Bronx 6. It happens. At least you were only going home -- I was late to jury duty (not that it ended up making a difference). The next day, the trains were back on their normal schedule.
Arti (waited for M23 for 45 minutes)
And you have the now daily huge gap of 20-30 minutes of no uptown <6> service during the PM rush. The <6> is not a premium service for everyone, but some people actually NEED to take it.
The <6> really needs to die...
It's not the schedules. Barring emergencies and GO's, schedules don't change in the middle of a pick. The current pick took effect on November 2; the next one takes effect in February. They don't change from day to day.
Perhaps the wrong things are being done when something goes awry. That used to be the case on the 1/9 (except that the 1/9 serves many many more people at each station), for at least a decade, but last year a better solution was worked out and, with rare exceptions, we've had reliable service since (although we could use a return to 5-minute weekend headways). Write a polite but firm email to the MTA so your displeasure becomes known to those who potentially have the power to correct it.
This would also provide an advantage for some people going from the Bronx to Manhattan, and in the Fordham area with no rapid transit. Those going south of 42nd Street would be better off taking the 4/5/6 anyway. Plus there is no actual station at 72nd Street on the east side(68th and 77th are the closest).
For price and transfer issues....
Local trains from 42nd Street to Wakefield (or Mount Vernon West to be generous to some others) with Metrocard readers or something else would be implemented if necessary.
This will make their commute easier to the 42nd Street area
North of 72nd, at least traffic on West End isn't very heavy. South of 72nd, it can be atrocious, especially when the WSH is jammed. Except near where they cross Broadway, traffic jams on Amsterdam and Columbus are almost unheard of. Trust me, I speak from experience.
The East Side is somewhat different, especially southbound. Lex is narrow, 5th is fine until the mid-60's but then becomes very slow, and 2nd carries the overflow from the bridge. Northbound is better -- 1st is usually in good shape, 3rd is pretty decent, and even Madison is often okay.
But Park? No thanks. Give me a one-way avenue any day over Park.
station list:
Grand Central Terminal
59th St
72nd St
86th St
125th St
138th St
from there are 2 routes:
Melrose
Morrisania
Tremont
Fordham
Botanical Gardens
Williams Bridge
Woodlawn
Mt Vernon East
New Rochelle
Yankee Stadium
High Bridge
Morris Heights
University Heights
Marble Hill
Spuyten Duyvil
Riverdale
College of Mt Saint Vincent(261st St)
Ludlow
Yonkers
The only other stations that are a possibility is 106th st or 110th st, and 183rd St, only b/c of the bus options
This allows for commuters from all 3 east of hudson lines to reach local destinations. I have them going out so far b/c these seem to be good termini(New Rochelle and Yonkers). This also allows for more trains to run express, while this one would pick up most of the local service. Example:
NH line, GCT bound:
half of the trains, last stop is New Rochelle, then straight to GCT. The other half stops at New Rochelle, then Mt Vernon East, Forham, 125th St, then GCT. At New Rochelle, people will also be able to transfer to a local train, which would make all the bronx and manhattan stops.
Harlem line, GCT bound:
half stop at Forham, then 125th St, then GCT, and the other half stops at Fordham, then express to GCT. At Fordham, people could transfer to the bronx/manhattan local(the one making all the stops)
Hudson line, GCT bound:
All stop at Yonkers, Marble Hill, then straight to GCT, half stop at Yonkers, Spuyten Duyvil, Marble Hill, Yankee Stadium, 125th St, then GCT. At Yonkers, transfer would be available to the local service train, making all those bronx and manhattan stops, along with the riverdale stop(yes, College of Mt Saint Vincent is in the Bronx).
Fare:
The fare would be $2.50 to travel between any station within the Bronx/Manhattan, and $3.00 to travel from/to outside of city lines to/from any of the bronx/manhattan stations.
Considering there are some possible problems with the platforms in the Park Av tunnels, trains would only be 4 cars long. Platforms should be able to fit that many, and any platform that cant, could be expanded more easily than for a 6-8 car train. If 4 cars isn't enough,
then make it 6 cars, and have the last 3 or 4 cars platform. Make the annoucements after every few stations, and after 125th st station. Anyone who doesn't hear it, tough luck for them. The train just closes the doors and goes to the next stop.
What y'all think?
Melrose
Morrisania
Tremont
Fordham
Botanical Gardens
Williams Bridge
Woodlawn
Wakefield
Mt Vernon West*
* I would have this station qualify for City Ticket as well, since locals terminate there
Mt Vernon EAST and Pelham are on the New Rochelle Route
as for Mt Vernon East... extend the Bx16/Bx34 or create the Bx23
As for New Rochelle, push harder for Bee Lines to get Metrocards
serving different people in different ways...
To build them today would require bigger $ than one might expect. Installing appropriate stairways and elevators would require them to acquire Park Avenue real estate above. Not cheap.
Also, the Lex's crowding problem is at the rush hour. I don't think Metro North is really looking to add 2 or 3 stops in the Park Ave tunnels on some or all of their trains during their peak period. Even if they did, it's hard to see how anyone would choose to take MN into GCT from, say, 86th Street. Has anyone here tried to get off the platform at GCT during the morning rush? It can take 5 minutes or more.
During the rest of the day and weekends, the Lex handles that volume just fine.
CG
Open 2 new stations on Park -- at 86th (for east siders to use going downtown) and 59th (for MNRR commuters to exit from if they work in that area). The latter would take some congestion off GCT. Use a dedicated platform or two at GCT for this new local service, which would run from Mt. Vernon West to GCT, all day, at regular intervals (15 minutes apart?). Install Metrocard turnstiles at GCT on the new platforms, as well as in existing local stops in the Bronx. Figure out a way to accept Metrocard at 125th and Fordham. Also build a couple of new stops in the Bronx -- say, 169 st. or Claremont Pkwy, and E. 187 St. (for access to the Belmont area). Provide for free transfer at 125th to the SAS and the 4,5,6, as well as at GCT to 4,5,6,7,S. The trains would only need a TO and 1 conductor, since no tix would be collected on board. Then (this is the coup de grace), give the line a number (the 10 train) -- make it seem like an integral part of the subway system.
Flaws? Plenty. Cost, the need to stop below 125th slowing down through trains, but it's worth consideration.
I also think that free transfer should be made available to the subways and buses, but I don't think it should be considered NYCT. I think MN would do just fine running it.
I think the cost is worth it.
Shouldn't you know what the cost is before you say something like that?
Goal: Reduce crowding on the Lex by providing alternate service
Costs:
1) 4-5 new ADA-compliant stations, 2 of which are underground in neighborhoods where real estate is absurdly expensive.
2) Reschedule the entire MNR rush hour so that reverse flow trains have access to side platforms. Possibly also requiring trackwork above 125 Street or within Grand Central to do this.
3) Come up with a solution to the Fordham and 125 Street being both MNR stops requiring cash/ticket and this service requiring MetroCard.
4) Eliminate direct service between Westchester and the Bronx local stations o/t Fordham.
Benefits:
1) 4 TPH during the rush, with 2-car platforms at 59 and 86. Assuming those trains are filled to capacity and turn over completely between GCT and 125 (and that's a huge assumption), you're taking 1,000 people per hour off the Lex. Which is basically the size of a pimple on an elephant's ass.
2) Cool new service and 4 new stations for railfans to check out (priceless).
CG
It's phrases like that which create boondoggles. Just take a look at NJT's Waterfront Connection, where the daily ridership is probably less than 500 people. Probably far less.
But it would still cost well into the tens of millions. All to help out at most about 2000 people. Why not just pick out 2000 residents of the (already quite well off) UES, hand them checks for $5,000 and ask them never to use the Lex at rush hour ever again?
CG
There are many flaws to cost/benefit analysis -- over valuing the benefits and underestimating the costs seem to be the most frequent -- but there are times when the benefits are so small (and targeted to so few) that they are dwarfed by the costs and make the entire plan impractical.
CG
Very true, and this particular proposal looks like one of them!
And remember. The MN service you guys are proposing will be every 15 minutes. Even the Lex overcrowding doesn't cause many people to have to wait more than 15 minutes for an available space on a train. The 1000 people per hour is -- I think -- a gross overestimation of the number of riders you'll pick up.
"If you show me how taking 1000 people per hour off the Lex does anything to reduce the extreme crowding, then I'll start trying to quantify the benefits."
Well then start quantifying. You just solved it yourself. 1,000 people per hour off the lex. That's a reduction right there.
1000/50=20 people per train
There are ten cars per Lex train, so let's do some more math:
20/10=2 people per car.
If the 1,000 number is correct (and it was pulled out of a hat to begin with), even if they're all riding in the peak hour this plan reduces crowding on the Lexington Avenue Line by an average of two passengers per car. And as someone pointed out, the "new" Metro-North stations would have to be accessible, making them expensive to construct.
Is it still worth doing?
David
It's like a lot of other tracks around the city. At least someone is seriously thinking of adding local service to the West Side Amtrak line and the New Haven Hell Gate line. Let's add Park Ave. to the list.
For the price issues:
1. Metrocard readers could be installed on the trains
2. Metrocards can be used to purchase tickets from machines. A 2.00 ticket can be purchased using 2.00 from your Metrocard, this would allow people to ride MNR at the discounted 1.67 Metrocard fare.
3. Sell tickets at 2.00 each, for every 10 tickets you buy, you get an extra ticket free. To some Park Avenue residents (Manhattan AND Bronx) this will be as good as the Metrocard.
www.freewebs.com/tstanyc
Yes, I should have been minding my own business, buy I needed to get my mind off the thought that I was going to die on that platform waiting for a PBP bound <6>, while shielding my face from the stinging ice crystals and the snow dust clouds that rolled off the roof of the NIS train and blew across the platform. <6>, you suck and should just go die, because you made me hate you. It's all your fault....
On some weekend G.O.s you may see a <6> if the C/R programs in the express stops correctly (or incorrectly if it is a mistake).
Well, try this on for size; the MTA techies introduced the 300' gap to COMPENSATE for the lack of tail tracks. Let's say that the MTA learns that it's not feasible to construct tail tracks; bad soil or rock, the end of the island, things would just get too expensive. This means that there need to be timers, to slow down trains to 10mph on the inbound. Now, in a 3 track station with an adequate interlocking will allow inbound trains to berth on any track. A train slowing down to pass the timer would slow down on top of the interlocking, backing up trains behind it. BUT, if the interlocking is pushed backwards, it would be possible for a train to clear it BEFORE needing to brake down to the stations incredibly slow speed limit. This would let multiple trains on the inbound clear the interlocking and begin their deceleration at the same time.
If this works out, then the TPH could be kept up, without building tail tracks. Now, the situation gets more complex when you have trains moving OUT over the same interlocking. Someone who knows more about train ops than I do would have to comment on how this would work with 2-directional traffic. BUT, I think this might be what the MTA is plotting. Comments?
The federal grant mandates a 3-track terminal. Therefore, that's what it'll be.
The FTA documents might have referred to a three-track terminal because that was what the MTA requested initially. But, things have changed.
The original concept had a three track station under the park. Lower Manhattan folks were very concerned about disruption to the park. So, the station was moved and, apparently, changed to two tracks, perhaps for space, perhaps for cost savings (more money Fulton and WTC PATH), perhaps because their engineers determined that a two track terminal could meet needs.
They also were told by FTA that the project did not need to go through the EIS process.
And who really cares about the curve problem?
They wanta get rid of the gap fillers.
Another factor: noise. Pushing the interlocking away from the station reduces train noise's impact on the platform area.
If it is a Flushing type arrangement the 300 ft distance might be the first of the switches to make the extreme crossover and another switch closer to the plat to take you to the middle.
In reality they are likely so anxious not to repeat the horrible crew reporting center at Parsons Archer that they are neglecting service implications.
BTW they will fix Parsons (in a few years) the CRC will move near the E Supt. office upstairs.
Are you sure about this? Do you have more information?
Seems to be that way...
If you stick with the proposed station location as shown on the MTA website, building tail tracks south of the station would have to contend with the Battery Park Underpass. Not far beyond that you're in the water.
You could move the whole station north to get more room for tail tracks, but there's a limited distance before the tracks need to curve to connect to the existing line. You'd either need to put up with a station on a curve, or reconfigure the approach tracks to cut into Battery Park a little more. Note that there are opponents of even the current proposal because construction would require temporary disruption of Battery Park on the surface (they're literally making the MTA count every tree that will be affected by this project). Any proposal that requires more disruption to the park above, even if it's only during the construction phase, will meet a louder outcry.
If you try to simply extend the existing platform, going forward you'll run into New York Unearthed within the space of a car or two. Going backwards you'd not only have to dig up a more built-up part of Battery Park, you'd also get no benefits from any additional station entrances/exits since the MTA has committed to having no presence (including station access stairways) inside of Battery Park. So anyone in the rear 6-7 cars would need to walk forward at least as far as the same overcrowded stairway that was there before (assuming it's re-opened) to exit the station.
That's right, the MTA gave up tail tracks, provided in the original proposal, to save trees in response to public objections. I didn't like that plan anyway -- it moved the station too far from the ferry.
(If you try to simply extend the existing platform, going forward you'll run into New York Unearthed within the space of a car or two. Going backwards you'd not only have to dig up a more built-up part of Battery Park, you'd also get no benefits from any additional station entrances/exits since the MTA has committed to having no presence (including station access stairways) inside of Battery Park.)
To me the right solution is to extend the platform backward, solve the half-train problem, and live with the platform extenders. This is a NIMBY nonesense issue. Yes, the park would have to be disturbed, but it could subsequently be greatly improved with all the money that would be saved. It is the short term interests of park users vs. the long term interests of park uses, subway users, and everyone else.
Or the rear section of the train, which might not have any sharp curves (I'm not sure), could open.
Neither is perfect, but both are a lot better than starving local passengers uptown of the basic service that they need, every day, whether the gap fillers are working or not.
The 1/9 line isn't the line that goes to South Ferry and happens to also serve a handful of unimportant stations. South Ferry is a minor station in comparison to the local stations between 42nd and 137th.
But try telling that to the SIRT/SI Ferry commuters, brah...
In comparison to Whitehall/Bowling Green, SF is far more "convenient" too.
I have witnessed a case when the gap fillers did not extend. The did not key off customers; they teed them off. They bypassed the station.
The single-track loop terminal can handle more TPH than even
the 3-track stub, and certainly will outperform a 2-track stub.
Have you tried to quantify your thesis? Consider two cases: switches at the station entrance and switches 300 feet before. Next for each case: only 1 train movement over switch at a time; time to lock switch for a new train movement 6 seconds; train speed over switch 15 mph; train speed at station entrance 10 mph; train speed decreases linearly to 5 mph when front has travelled 200 feet; train speed decreases linearly to 0 mph when front reaches front of station; train length 510 feet; switch length 200 feet (300 feet for 3-track terminal). What is total time for complete cycle? What is roundtrip time per train?
Currently, the GT signals begin at the A/B loops crossover and maintain a constant 10 mph through the loop. Leaving SF, you need the gap fillers to retract, then 10 mph to the 'SERIES' sign, then whatever Series will do for your train (usually about 20) to Rector St (the above assuming the signs have not been changed since 9/11 reconstruction).
Net anticipated time gain with trains spaced far enough to not be held at the interlocking: 0 min 0 sec.
However, there's something about the machine-like efficiency of the IND, as well as all the provisions for future expansion that utterly fascinates me about the IND. I love riding the (F) train through Brooklyn, and watching out the window as tracks branch of and decend down into the blackness of the seldom-used lower level. The Smith/9th Street station looks like something straight out of the movie "Dark City".
During my most recent visit to NYC last Sunday, the IND threw another surprise at me. I found myself hanging around on Fifth Avenue looking at all the holiday lights and obcenely expensive retailers, and took a peek inside St. Thomas Church at 5th Ave and 53rd Street. Incredible. (St. Thomas was designed by Ralph Adams Cram, who also designed my former church in Chicago, as well as the nave of the Cathedral of St. John the Divine, in addition to many other churches.) However, I was running short on time, and need to make my way up to St. John the Divine for an evening worship service and a meeting afterwards.
I spotted a subway entrance just across 53rd Street from St. Thomas, and went inside. I went down a very long escalator, and found myself inside the 5th Ave./53rd St. station of the IND.
A question immediately comes to mind:
1) Why was this station constructed on two levels?
I boarded a westbound (E) train to the next stop at 7th Avenue, and found myself going downstairs to transfer to the uptown (B) train. Much to my shock and confusion, I found myself in a station with left-handed operation. Just like my old commuting days on the C&NW in Chicago.
My next question:
2) Are there any other left-handed stations in the NYCTA system (not including terminal stations)?
And a couple more questions:
3) Aside from the Chrystie Street Connection, where are the other track connections between the IND and BMT divisions in the system? What subway routes involve both IND and BMT trackage?
4) What are some other interesting IND stations or sections I should check out on my next trip to NYC?
And in a completely unrelated question:
5) At the south end of the uptown platform on the IRT at the Union Square station, there's a large gap in the columns that seperate the uptown and downtown express tracks. Is there a reason for this gap? It's almost as if there used to be an interlocking here.
Inquiring minds want to know....
Peace,
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
Because the street is not wide enough for it to be built on one level. Maybe you could get a two track line. But it becomes a four track line west of 6th Avenue, at the 7th Avenue station.
2) Are there any other left-handed stations in the NYCTA system (not including terminal stations)?
Fulton Street southbound on the Nassau Street line? Similar two-level station, due to a narrow street.
3) Aside from the Chrystie Street Connection, where are the other track connections between the IND and BMT divisions in the system? What subway routes involve both IND and BMT trackage?
Stillwell terminal if you count the whole Culver as part of the IND now; Church Avenue if you don't. The 63rd Street tunnel connects to both the 6th Avenue line and the BMT Broadway Line. The 60th Street tunnel connects to both the Queens Boulevard local and the Astoria line.
Both uptown services are on one level and appear to be running lefthanded while both downtown services are on the other level and operate righthanded. Trains coming from and going to 6th Ave. are one on top of the other; likewise for trains coming from and going to Queens.
To simplify the junction with the 6th Avenue line. The tracks have to be on two levels to allow the southbound track to 6th Avenue to cross over the northbound track from 8th Avenue.
2) Are there any other left-handed stations in the NYCTA system (not including terminal stations)?
No. If you'll notice, at 7th Avenue/53rd Street each platform handles service in only one logical direction. The E is travelling west to go downtown, while the B/D are going east to go downtown.
3) Aside from the Chrystie Street Connection, where are the other track connections between the IND and BMT divisions in the system? What subway routes involve both IND and BMT trackage?
1954: Ditmas Avenue BMT-Church Avenue IND (now used by the F)
1955: 60th Street Tunnel BMT-Queens Plaza IND (now used by the R)
1956: Euclid Avenue IND-80th Street BMT (now used by the A)
1967: Chrystie Street
The A, F and R are currently the only dual routes. In February they will be rejoined by the B and D.
4) What are some other interesting IND stations or sections I should check out on my next trip to NYC?
Utica Avenue in Brooklyn on the A/C.
The lower parts of the ceiling are for trackways in the unused upper level station. The station was to have been part of a Stuyvesant-Utica Avenues Line.
One express stop west is Nostrand Avenue, which was converted from local to express during construction.
At Rockefeller Center, the express and local services are reversed southbound, the local is in the middle and the express is against the wall. At 168th Street, this applies in both directions.
It's nice to see my theory of the bizarre layout of this station gaining general acceptance. But has anyone proven this to be true?
Now the discussion should focus on why the change was necessary. One could argue that the change to an express station here was because the IND wanted to pull even more passangers from the competing Fulton St elevated, which had a local station directly above it. (Fulton el service had express service running non-stop along the rebuilt section thru Rockaway Ave. to Franklin Ave.). But no express service ran at Nostrand until well after the el closed. I like the another theory, one which takes into account the original Fulton St. IND configuration. That had only Fulton express service running into Manhattan, local service terminating at Court St. Perhaps the IND planners thought that a station at Nostrand which served the Manhattan-bound express service would make the subway more competative with the el. If so, it was a waste of effort, as the original plan to run locals to Court St. and expresses to Manhattan was never implimented.
The mezzanine pictures were pretty convincing, but I'm not entirely convinced that the station isn't laid out that way to avoid running trains underground directly next to building foundations.
Meanwhile, the current theories on station modification are too logical to be ignored.
IIRC the Bedford Subway was more of a planned BMT El more than an actual subway proposed.
Which helps prove our side is correct. You agree that the station was modified, just not on how, but that has nothing to do with proving or disproving that the station was so designed for a Bedford subway.
IIRC the Bedford Subway was more of a planned BMT El more than an actual subway proposed.
Meaning that the IND did not care about connecting to it.
Like I said I didn't see anything to suggest a transfer point. It looked like a long crossover from one side to the other. Probably built because there was no mezzazine ay the station.
Other than a book I read at the library about 30 years ago (Which I copied the pages, BTW) I've never seen anything about a Bedford Subway or El except for what people have said.
Yes, and I'm sure that's true, however, Nostrand was designed as a local station. All the things you mentioned could have been done in a "Bergen St"-like traditional double-decker express station, which is how they would have built it, if it was planned to be an express station from the beginning.
there are structural provisions in the roof of the Fulton St. Line for the proposed subway similar to those which can be seen at the north end of 2 Av on the F Line.
Yes, and 2nd Ave is a traditional one level express station.
I'm convinced it was.
It was designed that way to provide an easier connection to the proposed Bedford Av subway, also part of the IND second system.
There was no Bedford Ave subway in any IND plans. There was one on Utica Ave, which helps to explain the unecessarily massive station there at Fulton St.
The long passageway at the Manhattan end of the upper level station extends to Bedford Av. and there are structural provisions in the roof of the Fulton St. Line for the proposed subway similar to those which can be seen at the north end of 2 Av on the F Line.
There are none that I could see when I was last there.
These, of course, would be a lot more difficult to see since they are out in the tunnel and not in a station area. If you are lucky enought o get an R-38 on th A or simply ride a C, you might see them, but keep in mind that you will be moving atsome degree of speed, even N/B and you just might miss them.
I shall be on the lookout at the next opportunity. However, given the fact that no Bedford Ave subway was ever proposed, coupled that a potential subway connection here cannot explain the bizarre layout of this station, I re-iterate my belief that Nostrand Ave was originally intended to be a local station with a full-length mezzanine (a la Lafayette Ave) and that the plans were modified after construction began to make it an express stop, turning the upper level mezzanine into the upper level express platform.
This does not have any bearing on the layout of the Nostrand Avenue station, but there were plans for subway lines along Bedford Avenue. Maybe Nostrand Avenue was laid out with the thought that there could be a Bedford Avenue line in subsequent years. I have no proof of this, but I've suspected for a while that the Greenpoint Avenue station on the Crosstown line was built in the way it was because there had been some proposals made for an east-west line running along Greenpoint Avenue, and the Board of Transportation wanted to make room for a connection in case one was built. No proof-just a suspicion.
That sounds like a perfect description for the route of the BMT Crosstown El. It was to have started at QBP. Gone south into Brooklyn via Manhattan Ave to McCarren Park then down Bedford Ave to Fulton Street. Then it was to have made a connection to the Franklin Shuttle. I saw a book once that had the route planned and the locations for the stations along the line. What held up the line was question of how to connect the line with what is now the Franklin Shuttle. Of course having Hylan as mayor didn't help matters any.
Underground - 53rd between 6th and 8th in Manhattan
36th St/4th Ave in Brooklyn
Euclid Avenue in Brooklyn
36th St/Northern Blvd in Queens
Van Wyck Blvd in Queens
Bergen St in Brooklyn
[145th/St Nick is disqualified because the B and D must cross paths during middays.]
6th Avenue between 57th and 47-50 is pretty impressive too, but there are many movements it can't perform.
The tracks around Queens Plaza/36th Street4 junctions!
Have a look at the Track Maps for more information.
The original name for Broadway Junction.
: )
Probably the same way the Myrtle El crossed over Broadway, and also connected with Broadway.
Athe same time, in some plans, the Crosstown line/Franklin line merge wouldn't have taken place until somewhere around Eastern Parkway.
I think the Fulton St Subway was built as planned. The connection to the Fulton St El at the Brooklyn/Queens line was secondary to the original route after Euclid Ave. Based on what I saw on the 1929 and 1939 subway proposal maps.
I think Hylan realised in some of the outer boros it would have been cheaper (Faster?) to connect his IND to some of the BMT and IRT Els. When the City bought the NY,W&B it was first considered an IND Line. The IND Smith St. Line was purposely aimed at the BMT Culver line at Church Ave. Maybe Hylan figured when the IND Third System was being planned and built, the Els would be torn down at that time.
Very true. The Dyre line was originally planned to be IND because I think it was supposed to be connected to the IND's unbuilt 2nd Ave subway. I think the White Plains line (east of 180th), the Pelham line north of Whitlock were also supposed to be eaten up by the IND 2nd Ave subway.
The Culver connection to Church is also clearly what was planned. (the only bad thing is that the Culver lost it's connection to 4th Ave, that connection should have remained, even if just for emergency reroutes).
Was the Liberty Ave El always supposed to connect to the Fulton Subway? I know the line was supposed to go further than Euclid (please, no 76th Street mentions), but was the Liberty Ave El always supposed to be a branch of that too?
No, I believe the plan to hook up the Liberty Ave El took on greater meaning when the LIRR sold the Rockaway Beach branch to the TA after the Broad Channel Bridge fire in the early 1950s. In fact, there was also aproposal to have an IND line run to the Rockaways (not on LIRR trackage) well beforehand.
--Mark
No! As mentioned 100's of times in this thread, if it had been too narrow, the station would have been built like Bergen Street. The ROW of the station at Nostrand is four tracks wide, not two. The "express" tracks in the express upper level are directly above a void of space in the lower level wher the express tracks were originally supposed to be. The express tracks are NOT over the local tracks. Bergen St, although four tracks, only has a two track ROW. Nostrand, four tracks wide has a FOUR track ROW, despite being on two levels.....that is because it was an express station made out of a LOCAL station shell.
Lower level screams "platform"
Upper level screams "mezzanine"
Compare that to any of the other mezzanines or platforms on the line, or any IND line.
- from Franklin Av LEFT into Fulton St above the Fulton St El
- RIGHT into Grand Av
- merge with the Lexington Av El
- create at triangular junction at Myrtle/Grand and turn RIGHT onto the Myrtle Av El
- LEFT off the Myrtle Av El over Nostrand, Lorimer, Driggs, Manhattan, Jackson.
Stops:
- Fulton/Franklin
- Fulton/Grand
- Gates
- De Kalb
- Myrtle/Grand
- Franklin
- Myrtle/Nostrand
- Flushing Av
- Broadway/Lorimer
- Grand St
- Metropolitan
- Richardson
- Nassau
- Greenpoint
- Eagle
- Vernon/Jackson
- 21st St
- Thomson
- QBP
- from Franklin Av LEFT into Fulton St above the Fulton St El
- RIGHT into Grand Av
- merge with the Lexington Av El
- create at triangular junction at Myrtle/Grand and turn RIGHT onto the Myrtle Av El
- LEFT off the Myrtle Av El over Nostrand, Lorimer, Driggs, Manhattan, Jackson.
Stops:
- Fulton/Franklin
- Fulton/Grand
- Gates
- De Kalb
- Myrtle/Grand
- Franklin
- Myrtle/Nostrand
- Flushing Av
- Broadway/Lorimer
- Grand St
- Metropolitan
- Richardson
- Nassau
- Greenpoint
- Eagle
- Vernon/Jackson
- 21st St
- Thomson
- QBP
The Crosstown line would have had to cross that, as well as the Broadway Ferry spur. It would have been some kind of a flying junction (as well as maybe leading to the construction of another Broadway-Brooklyn line station between Marcy Avenue and the bridge). I guess this would have been something like Broadway Junction, and it would have been something to see. It would be really something if there were some old architectural renderings sitting someplace, but I'm not quite sure if they ever got that far.
You are absolutely correct, that is why there are curtain walls at Nostrand. However, when I say void, I don't actually mean that there is actualy open space behind the walls on the local level. When the design changed, they had to raise the express tracks up through the area where they were supposed to go (the void), but of course, if the mezzanine floor was to be a platform floor, they had to drop the area where the trains would be a few feet to allow for the trackbed to be lower than mezzanine floor. It's not like at Canal (N,R) where if they would remove the wall, you would see where the "express" trackways should be because of course the express trackways are not even with the mezzanine floor at Nostrand.
Anyhow, I do fully understand your theory. It certainly could have happened that way. I would like to know for sure.
I understand. There is always that doubt, unless we see it in writing. Like I said, I am 99% sure of this theory, however, "seeing is believeing" in order to make it 100%
Speaking of an afterthought, wasn't 23/Ely not originally planned?
Yes, I don't know when it was built (very early on), but 23rd-Ely is an "afterthought" station, built into the tunnel after service already started. The tile color scheme (and condition) at that station is probably one of the most attractive in the entire IND system.
Anyone have any photos? There aren't any on this site, it seems.
The BMT crosstown el would have certainly co-existed with the Fulton St. el, and since the IND Crosstown line is all subway, that point is moot.
As for the construction of Nostrand Av station, one of the reasons it was built that way had to do with the narrowness of Fulton St at that point combined with the transfer to the proposed Bedford Av subway.
We've settled the narrowness issue. Fulton St. doesn't narrow here in any meaningful way, and the current Nostrand Ave station & tunnel is as wide as any local station north or south of it.
There is no documentation in existance (that I know of) demonstrating a planned Bedford Ave subway. All of the IND stations built with allowances for other lines to be built later (Utica/Fulton, Roosevelt Ave/Broadway) already had definitive routes laid out and approved for construction.
If you want to continue to assert that a Bedford Ave. subway was planned, we'll need proof. If your assertion that Nostrand Ave's configuration was dictated by that, proof should be easy to find.
It's highly possible that if the BRT had been able to third track the entire Fulton St structure end to end, that even if the IND had been built, it might well have utilized the entire structure along Fulton from downtown Brooklyn, or at least a major portion of it
Highly unlikely, as the section between Nostrand Ave and the Atlantic Ave interlocking already was rebuilt, but targeted for demolition. The original IND plan had the line running as it does today, under Pitkin Ave, out to Springfield Gardens. See the IND Second System Page for more details.
Many of the other proposed IND lines directly targeted IRT/BMT el lines which were equipped to handle the heavy steel cars (many of which survive to this day).
I enjoy this sort of stuff too. As for the Christmas lights, I'm at the point where if the strand only half works, or if I can't get them on at all, I throw the whole strand out. I've almost gone mad other years trying to figure out which bilb is loose or out.
Even if that is true, it does not explain why Nostrand, if always meant to be an express station, wasn't built like Bergen Street (or like a traditional express station on one level). It also doesn't explain why the express tracks are over a void on the lower level, exactly two trackways wide. The lower level's local tracks are directly under the upper level's platforms. The ROW is exactly four tracks wide. If the upper level tracks were to be dropped one level, they would fall into place perfectly between the local tracks, just like any other local station on the line.
There is no other explanation for this except for the fact that the station was build as a local station, and the mezzanine converted to an express station when the plans changed.
If true (and I dont know that for certain) then they would have been abanoned by the time construction of the Fulton St. line was underway, as the current crosstown line was being built at the same time.
BTW, the BMT crosstown line you speak of was intended to be an el, connecting the Franklin Ave shuttle to the Queensboro Plaza station.
Please understand that I'm just theorizing here. There is no mention of anything in any of the station blueprints that I've see (as opposed to stations like Broadway or Bedford-Nostrand). Any other place where the IND lines crossed points where other lines were proposed to have built the B of T made room for it. It just looks like there was though given to more than just building a station for one line here. I could very well be wrong about this.
Funny how the Queens local stations now have two (weekday) routes to Manhattan when they initially had none.
Well, downtown Brooklyn was really a busier, varied destination than it is now, busy as it is. I can see how a scheme like the one for Court Street could have been conceived. The mindset was different. Consider, Brooklyn had millions of residents. A market of millions is a worthy target for specialized high capacity transit line routings. It was basically a train riding population. All trains led into downtown anyway. Don't know what percentage of total Brooklyn residents' jobs were in the area but I'd say it was high. When you wanted to do serious shopping you went downtown.
Court Street and downtown were much more important back then. I would say that the planners considered any terminal in the area capable of attractubg riders in large numbers, as long as it was downtown.
I still like the idea of a Court Street terminal. The intrinsic train riding patterns, and the system infrastructure itself do not necessarily dictate that ALL trains must proceed to Manhattan. But it does seem that that's the dominent philosophy now. Back then, the need for other service patterns existed.
David
Not that I disagree with your point, but I do see one mildly interesting situation in that vein. I do see that sometimes L trains are less full west of First Avenue (which certainly isn't in the core of Manhattan) than east of First Avenue.
Not that I'm suggesting turning any trains at First Ave!
You're forgetting the hospitals on 1st Av.
Arti
But most aren't anywhere near the L station.
From 23rd to 34th on 1st Avenue (also around 14th and 2nd), coming from Brooklyn, 1st and 14th is the closest stop to those locations and a convenient transfer to M15.
Arti
That's a different phenomenon. The L train doesn't go anywhere west of the CBD. 1st Av happens to be the first station in anything approximating the CBD, so a few people will get off Westbound, but practically nobody would get on.
Even if the general operating philosophy is contra to it, Downtown Brooklyn is still a place where people end their journeys. (Long Island City is probably the runner up in this context.) Short turning trains at, say, Boro Hall or DeKalb could mean seats for riders taking trains from stations further out that the larger percentage of riders shun as they are crossing the river. How it would be done? Something like, every third train doing the turn? Not sure how feasible that would be.
That's why I liked the "hardware" solution of an actual end-of-track terminal. Makes it easier to have dedicated train service for that terminal specifically.
No, in the original IND design, the stubs at both Court and WTC (Hudson Terminal) were not to connect to anything else, and not to each other either. WTC was always meant (in IND plans) to be the terminal for Manhattan locals, and Court was always meant to be the terminal for Fulton locals. Just like the Queens locals were not designed to enter Manhattan, but feed into the Crosstown, and Park Slope locals were not meant to go to Manhattan either, but also feed into the Crosstown. WTC and Court street keeps with the IND design that only expresses leave the outer boroughs.
Any plan to extend from Court or WTC was NOT an IND designed plan. If those ideas came up, it was only in post-IND planning.
David
It would seem so although the R-1s that originally ran there had to seem faster and more modern than the older, heavier and slower BMT equipment that ran above. Keep in mind (if you believe this particular bit of NYC lore) that Mayor Hyland built the IND system with the express (no pun intended) purpose of competing with and driving the BMT (and IRT) out of business. That explains why so many IND routes parallel the older BMT/IRT routes.
Still, we should also remember that there are only so many good routes available for subway line construction. Pre-IND, most of the BMT and IRT lines WERE the epicenters of population and business. So maybe in many cases there was no place else to build but within the vicinity of an existing line. The gridwork nature of the streets also contribute to this state of affairs.
Not that I'm forgiving them for a lot of the route placements. Just saying it might not fit for all the lines. Now, if that damned Second System had been built, the IND would have, IMO, more properly assumed the role of prime mover for the city.
That's true. Still, by the time the IND was being considered, those BMT and IRT lines had only strengthened and further established the developmental patterns of the surrounding neighborhoods. I think the main point is, the city wanted to build new lines along routes that didn't carry subway lines. They didn't have the luxury of "building in the wilderness". Maybe some of the planners objected to building so near to existing lines. But probably, the costs would have been extreme.
You have to look back at the view of the time when elevateds in Manhattan were already being torn down as "eyesores" and that there were also plans to do so in the "outer boroughs" owing to the financial optimism of the time prior to the "Great Depression."
On a side note, was there a provision built for the Ft. Hamilton Pkwy subway between 7 Ave and Church Ave on the F line?
So believe me, I have no doubts about Hylan and his INTENT to get those "evil traction interests", "by ANY means necessary." However, in examining what was proposed (prior to the economic crash of the 1930's) did appear to be (had the funds remained nearly unlimited) the complete and total replacement of elevateds with "modern subways" and it would make sense to parallel existing routes in order to remove "the eyesores" based on the philosophy.
I don't have access to the details of how they were going to actually go about this by means of trying to cajole the IRT and BMT to go along with it, and it would certainly be logical for the "second system" to capture entirely new areas had it been built. And that the BMT and IRT had already begun "modernizing" with such examples as the fourth avenue subway and such. So clearly Hylan had his own intents.
What I'm saying though is that for whatever Hylan's motivations, it's one hard sell when you're trying to get money out of Albany or Washington, and if I'm not mistaken, the capture of the Culver came years later when it became apparent that an extension of the F line somewhere was not going to happen, and in turn that made the "capture" of the existing lines more practical.
Sorry I don't know the answer on your question about the provisions for Fort Hamilton ...
Regards,
Jimmy
Maybe the provision for a subway transfer at the N/E (Bedford Ave End) of Nostrand station was why the station was built like this.
One more thing - Kingston-Throop has an offsetted platform, I wonder if that had anything to do with the shift in plans.
wayne
Yeah, I wonder who took some of them.....
If there is something I missed, tell me about it please.
Fine, but I didn't think we were that far into disagreement on this one that a "truce" was even necessary. In fact, I thought we were sort of agreeing.....
The only difference between those stations and Nostrand is that at Nostrand the local tracks were lowered to allow expess trains to stop at Nostrand.
Okay, that's where we disagree. In fact, look at the photos again. We agree that the set-up was for a "local" station originally. The part of Nostrand that looks like all the other local stations, is the lower level, which was like all the other stations, and looks like all the other stations. The upper express level looks like all the other IND station's mezzanines. The upper level is not what looks like the other station platforms. If no mezzanine was planned for Nostrand, and they were going to make it a local station originally, with no mezzanine, and then the plans changed during construction to make it an express station, it would be the UPPER level that would look like all the other local platforms on the line. This is why I am 99% sure that Nostrand was plannedoriginally as a local station with a mezzanine originally, and the mezzanine was converted to the express platforms when the plans changed during construction.
I will name four examples for now at least:
1. The stations with their acme layout and modern themed design.
2. The rolling stock (both the R-1/9's and R-10's).
3. The "A" line in general and as thrilling it can be.
4. Express runs along 8th Avenue & Central Park West ("A" & "D"), 6th Avenue between 34th-West 4th Streets ("B" & "D"), Fulton Street ("A")and Queens Boulevard ("E" & "F").
Yeah...I am a fan of the IND...and proud of it at that!!!
-William A. Padron
["Wash.Hts.-8th Av.Exp."]
Director: Andrei Konchalovsky
Format: Color, Closed-captioned, NTSC
Studio: Mgm/Ua Studios
Video Release Date: July 16, 1996
VHS Features:
NTSC format (US and Canada only. This VHS will probably NOT be viewable in other countries. Read more about VHS formats.)
Color, Closed-captioned, NTSC
Other Formats: DVD widescreen
links
http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/RunawayTrain-1017998/
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/6304084293/104-1280100-0539964?v=glance
What's that old saying that was made into a 'Twighlight Zone' episode: "People are Alike All Over"?
No Word on Whether Coat Sustained Any Stab Wounds
You do realize that will only encourage gang members to kill more often, as they now have nothing to lose?
Sherlock
Sherlock
So your question is really "how could today's system be more efficient"?
Even that depends on when you're asking the question. In you asked it during the '70s, when times were especially tough, you would have thought that the heavy trunk A Line on Fulton Street Brooklyn was a mistake. Now the line more justifies the extensive local and express service seven days a week.
But to actually answer your question...
I think I would have a more balanced system so that service reached more areas and was less concentrated on other areas--i.e., more lines to the northeast Bronx, southeast Brooklyn, much of Queens. Some redundancy wouldn't be built--no Sea Beach AND West End in that area of Brooklyn (if it weren't already built--Don't hurt me, Fred!). But I might round out the Bay Ridge area service by having the R turn east at Fort Hamilton and continue to Coney Island.
No self-competition (4 and D lines adjacent in the Bronx), and so on.
Structurally, the biggest change I would make in planning would be to limit the length (from CBD) of conventional local-express subway lines. I would have more regional lines on the order of Washington Metro with frequent stops in CBD areas and limited stops in further out areas. I would attempt to eliminate the "get to work sometime during your lifetime at a cheap price on the subway or get there really fast for 4X the price on an infrequently run commuter line."
Local services beyond, say, a ten mile radius of CBD would be light rail distributers wherever feasible--IOW, I would return more to the BMT Corp. philosophy of integrated mass transit. Even the Boartd of Transportation intended to keep 13 Brooklyn trolley lines before they realize they could get rid of them all.
Which 13?
In fact, I guess current bus fans might ask "which are the 13 busiest bus lines that could use the ability to run light rail trains" (or at least two-car lash-ups)?
I always wonder how something like that would have changed the neighborhoods had it been built. Utica Avenue might have turned more like Broadway in terms of apartments. (especially when it snows I wish they had built that line)
A major street like Flatbush Avenue I always wonder how it ended up so skinny.
--------
The way most of the subways lines today do their jobs, but if I had a chance to redesign it, I would make a few more lines that didnt go into manhattan.
-Some east west lines that cut across Brooklyn
-The old Bay Ridge line in use, down to the water (Similar set up to South Ferry for the Bay Ride Ferry to Manhattan, issue with that ferry is accessing in on the Brooklyn end)
-I like the express track of the Sea Beach, would have continued it easr under Ave U to Kings Plaza
-Access more of Queens, extend the N into La Guardia Airport, 2 branches on into the Bronx, the other to Flushing and further out to College Point.
- North South line on the eastern side of Queens, a line bet Jamaica and Flushing
To this day I still dont get Staten Island, where would a line benefit it, and with all the hills how, Victory Blvd then south under Richmond Ave
-The Second Ave, a branch through Randalls Is, a stop at Dowling Stadium for events use, then connecting with the N in Queens
The section of the LI railroad that runs pass the M to LI City, annex that as a line into Manhattan under 34th Street
Redesign the L route, or at least make most of the entrances more accessable
The transit plans themselves are dated in 1939 and are a revised form of the 1929 IND Second System plan with some additions and omissions.
Hope this helps!
Was there ever any outrage at te idea of the line cutting through Central Park?
You have to set some ground rules for different scenarios, however. For example, imagine it is about 1900, the elevated lines already exist, and you can start designing underground lines. One scenario is to follow the historical periods of original IRT/Dual Contracts/IND/post-war eras, but allow for your own judgments. (Is it worth connecting the IRT to the elevated lines? Can you know in 1900 that these connections will become obsolete?)
Or do forget about the elevated lines and start designing an integrated underground system from the beginning?
My own doodlings with this show that the first scenario (IRT-BMT-IND, etc.) usually leads towards a system pretty close to the present one. The second scenario probably allows for more radical changes.
The elevated system did have some odd features - why were the Second and Third Avenue els built a block apart? Yet for the time it was quite advanced, far beyond any other urban system in the world (except perhaps London).
Yes, there should have been - still should be - a rail connection from New York into the Palisades area of New Jersey.
I've walked many times from Fort Lee south, to Hoboken and J.C. It doesn't look exactly similar (less brick apartments) but the density comes pretty close to Brooklyn, on average. Going dwon Palisade(s?) Avenue for instance. It's sort of a middle zone between the very high density large residential buildings fronting the river, and the gradual slide towards a more typical suburban pattern to the West. I've always enjoyed that stretch of cityscape.
It is definitely up to the levels of population that would support heavy rail transit lines. But I guess the amalagamation of Greater New York did have its benefits concerning this, as on the Jersey side there are seemingly dozens of seperate munincipalities along the stretch roughly opposite to Manhattan Island. Too many to enable,, say, a Hudson County subway matrix.
Oh well. At least now there's the HBLRT line. So there is a shot at starting such a system.
- Broadway
- Lexington Av
- 2nd Av
At 66th St there would be a flying junction on the Broadway Line by which both local and express could access the 2 track Broadway and 9th Av subways through midtown.
A similar junction would be situated at 59/2, where a 2 track 59th St - 6th Av Line would branch off and the 2nd Av Line South of that point becomes 2 track.
Another junction like this would be at 23/Lex where 2 track subways would continue under Park Av - Lafayette St and under 23rd St - Av C - E Bway.
Yet another junction like this would merge the 6th and 9th Av Lines at Christopher/Hudson Sts into a 4 track main line, 2 tracks of which would head across Canal St and the South Side of the Manhattan Bridge. The other 2 tracks would continue down W Bway and Greenwich St to South Ferry.
The Broadway Line would also continue to South Ferry.
The Lafayette St Line would run over the Brooklyn Bridge.
The 2nd Av Line would go over the North Side of the Manhattan Bridge.
The E Bway Line would continue under Park Row and Pearl St to South Ferry.
I have to ask before coming up with my thoughts on the matter: Was the original Metropolitan Line in London built following streets or did it cut a swath that was then covered?
Following streets. If you look at the extract from the 1835 Dawson map below, the "New Road" (now the Marylebone Road) will become the route of the Met.
If there was no subway, New York would be like Detroit, or Los Angeles.
I have designed just that. What If.
It follows certain sets of rules that I set forth before drawing it.
1) all Manhattan Locals stay (for the mostpart) in Manhattan.
2) all trains from the boros are Express in Manhattan.
3) there are several transit hubs the most interesting being Brooklyn Center and South Ferry.
Needless to say, if I were to draw this today, I would do it a little diferently. In this map I started in the hinterlands and worked my wan into the city. The next time I try this I will start in the city and work my way out.
Since you are interested, take a look and tell me what you think.
Click on the map to display details of neighborhoods. Since you are a kid (ie somebody under 33 - sorry Mr. Pig) you should probably get yourself a copy of MS Streets and Trips if you do not alread have it, for it is a great way to draw subway maps.
I have not updated my stuff in some time, so the links to a forum board are long since dead. The file download is for .est files that will only display with MS Streets and Trips, but if you have that, you should be able to view the entire What If map in any scale you like.
I have not checked it out recently, so let me know if it does or doesn't work.
Elias
Everyone loves to show off their fantasy routes. :)
8th Avenue Division
A1 - 155 St, Manhattan to Atlantic Avenue, Brooklyn, 8th Ave. Local in Manhattan, Tillary St/Ashland Pl local in Brooklyn (Operates 24/7)
A2 - Gun Hill Rd, The Bronx to Stillwell Av-Coney Island, Brooklyn, 3 Ave-161 St Local in Bronx, 8th Av Express in Manhatttan, Coney Island Ave Express in Brooklyn. (Note: only operates Coney Island Express during rush hours. All other times operates as Coney Island Ave Local)
A3-Reservoir Av, Bronx to Union Tpke, Queens, Martin Luther King Jr. Blvd Express in Bronx, 8th Ave Express in Manhatttan, Tillary St/Myrtle Ave Express in Brooklyn and Queeens. (Note: Only operates as express outside of Manhatttan during rush hours.)
A4-155 St, Manhatttan to Union Tpke, Queeens, 8th Av Local in Manhatttan, Tilllary St/Myrtle Av Local in Brooklyn & Queens. (operates rush hours only)
A5-Reservoir Av, Bronx to Stilllwell Av-Coney Island, Brooklyn, M.L.K. Jr. Blvd Local in Bronx, 8th Av Local in Manhatttan, Coney Island Av Local in Brooklyn (operates rush hours only)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
7th Avenue/Broadway Division
B1 - Pelham Bay Pk, Bronx to 180 St-St Albans, Queens, Westchester Av Express in Bronx, B'way-7th Av Express in Manhattan, Flatbush Av-Eastern Pkway/Pitkin Ave Express in Brooklyn, Linden Blvd Local in Queens. (Note: operates as local in Bronx and Brooklyn on weekends and during nights.)
B2 - 261st St, Bronx to Fountain Ave, Brooklyn, Broadway-7th Av Local in Bronx and Manhattan, Flatbush Av-Eastern Pkway/Hegeman Av Local in Brooklyn (operates 24/7)
B3 - Pelham Bay Pk, Bronx to South Ferry, Manhattan, Westcher Av Local in Bronx, B'way-7th Av Local in Manhattan. (does not operate during nights)
B4 - 261st St, Bronx to Euclid Ave, Brooklyn, B'way-7th Av Express in Bronx and Manhattan, Flabush Av-Eastern Pkway/Pitkin Av Local in Broooklyn. (operates weekdays only)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Madison Avenue Division
C1 - 208th St, Bronx to 97th Av, Queens, Concourse Local in Bronx, Madison Av Express in Manhattan, Flabush Av/Fulton St Express in Brooklyn, Jamaica Av Local in Queens (only operates as Flabush/Fulton Express on weekdays, all other times, local in Brooklyn)
C2 - Edson Av, Bronx to South Ferry, Manhattan, Southern Blvd Local in Bronx, Madison Av Local in Manhattan. (operates 24/7)
C3 - Edson Av, Bronx to B'way Jct-East NY, Brooklyn, Southern Blvd Express in Bronx, Madison Av Express in Manhattan, Fulton St Local in Brooklyn. (operates weekdays only)
----------------------------------------------------------------=----
2nd Avenue Division
D1`- 233rd St, Bronx to Stillwell Av-Coney Islad, Brooklyn, Boston Rd Express in Bronx, 2nd Av Express in Manhattan, Flabush Av/Brighton Express in Brooklyn. (operates 24/7)
D2 - 241st St, Bronx to Brighton Beach, Brooklyn, White Plains Rd/Boston Rd Local in Bronx, 2nd Ave Local in Manhattan, Flabush Av/Brighton Local in Brooklyn (operates 24/7)
D3 - Harding Av, Bronx to South Ferry, Manhattan, Westchester Av/Boston Rd Local in Bronx, 2nd Av Local in Manhattan (operates 24/7)
D4 - 207th St, Manhattan to Brighton Beach Brooklyn, St Nicholas Av/2nd Av Express in Manhattan, Flatbush Ave/Brighton Express in Brooklyn (Does not operate during late nights)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
6th Avenue Division
E1 - Braddock Av, Queens to 95th St-Bay Ridge, Brooklyn, Hillside Av/Queens Blvd Express in Queens, 6th Av Express in Manhattan, 4th Av Express in Brooklyn. (operates 24/7)
E2 - 102nd-La Guardia Airport, Queens to South Ferry, Manhattan, Astoria Blvd-31st Local in Queens, 6th Av Local in Manhattan. (operates 24/7)
E3 - 230th St, Queens to Stillwell Av-Coney Island, Brooklyn, Jewel Av/Queens Blvd local in Queens, 6th Av Local in Manhattan, 4th Av/New Utrecht Av Local in Brooklyn. (operates 24/7)
E4 - 102nd St, Queens to Stillwell Av, Brooklyn, Astoria Blvd-31st St Express in Queens, 6th Av Local in Manhattan, 4th Av/New Utrecht Av Express in Brooklyn. (Operates rush hours only)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Centre Street Division
F1 - Mott Av-Far Rockaway, Queens to Wall St, Manhattan, Rockaway Express in Queens, Broadway Express in Brooklyn, Centre St Express in Manhattan. (Note: operates as local in Brooklyn and Queens during nighs.)
F2 - 69th St, Queens to Wall St, Manhattan, Flushing Av/Broadway Local in Queens and Brooklyn, Centre St Local in Manhattan. (Operates 24/7)
F3 - Beach 116ths St-Rockaway Pk, Queens to Chambers St, Manhattan, Rocakaway Local in Queens, Broadway Local in Brooklyn, Centre St Local in Manhattan. (Does not operate during nights)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
14th Street Division
G1 - Flatbush Av/Utica Av, Brooklyn to 8th Av, Manhattan, Flatlands Local in Brooklyn, 14th St Local in Manhattan. (operates 24/7)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
42nd Street Division
H1 - 154th St, Queens to 10th Av, Manhattan, Whitestone/Roosevelt Av Local in Queens, 42 St Local in Manhattan. (operates 24/7)
H2 - 41st Av-Bayside, Queens to 10 Av, Manhattan, Bayside/Roosevelt Av Express in Queens, 42 St Express in Manhattan. (Operates 24/7)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Brooklyn-Queens Crosstown Division
I1 - Woodhaven Blvd, Queens to Boro Hall, Brooklyn, Queens Blvd/Broadway Local in Queens, Union-Lafeytte Aves. Local in Brooklyn. (Operates 24/7)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Sherlock
If I were building FRESH from scratch, it would have to be more like BART or MARTA, with trunk lines along Atlantic, Queens, Concourse, etc. and perhaps a loop under the FDR and West Side Highway, with stubs or crosstown connectors in Manhattan. To have a Madison Ave and 7 Ave line built now -- my god, imagine.
It is impossible to go east to west in The Bronx - now mainly due to the situation at the GWB with all trucks having to use the upper level. Even before 9/11, it was difficult to go from east to west in the upper reaches of The Bronx and Manhattan.
Sherlock Holmes
It's a standard IRT local station, one level down, no underpass. It's also offset, so the uptown platform is much further north than the downtown. Thus the downtown is directly adjacent to, and connects with, the IND, while the uptown doesn't (until they build the propsed passageway).
Or maybe I just read that as one possible solution.
David
More than the court, Hevesi's about face proves the point. Far from hiding the fact that the MTA is rolling in hidden money, he now points out (correctly this time) that the MTA, at the behest of the Governor and State Legislature, is rolling in debt and unfunded pension liabilities.
The crime was not raising the fare in 2003. It was failing to raise the fare steadily in the 1996-2003 period, especially given all the discounts provided, deleting state pay-as-you-go funding from the last two capital plans, not putting enough money into the pension plans, and having the state legislature hand out a pension enhancement to boot. The consequences of this are a surprise to no one.
You would not let a foot doctor perform open heart surgery on you
It would have been funny to see what he strapangers campaign's reactions to all the service cuts that would have resulted from the MTA loosing the case
Well not really funny
BTW Where did this happen?
BTW, that's what is called 'Unfare Control' ;-)
I also am curious as to where this happened, but just to clarify on your statement, they did reopen the old abandoned mezzanine at Lorimer Street recently. It is operated by HEET only. Marcy also has a HEET entrance/exit at the west end of the station.
It was Fulton Street, at the south end of the southbound J/M/Z platform. There is one old HXT and about 4-5 turnstiles, and the turnstiles were facing a locked gate.
I am going to hold a contest on my site's Galllery. It's open to any members of the gallery. It will be judged by me, unless I decide to enter, then I will see if I can get some judges.
If you are not a member, become one by Clicking Here.
The submission period is any photo taken yesterday (12/5), or today (12/6). Good Luck to anyone who decides to enter!
The winner will be imortalized with a wing on my website regarding their snowy pics!
John
Does that include 12/5/02?
The only difference between last year and this year is that last year the Redbirds ran.
12/05/02 was not "yesterday."
You must be a member of the gallery to play.
Good Luck!
Contest
Been discussed in detail on a another thread a while back. Try searching with the keyword snow and you might find it.
It's the obvious. In Plan 4 every train that can be brought underground is brought underground. No express service in many places where you would normally expect it, like the Broadway and 4th Ave BMT lines, because trains are stored there.
Plan 2 - Temperatures forecast at 10 F and below.
- G.O.'s and work trains will be cancelled where needed.
- Operate maximum length trains on all lines except OPTO lines.
- Trins will be relocated to underground storage locations.
Plan 2 (MOD)
- G.O.'s and work trains will be cancelled where needed.
- At the deiscretion of District General Superintendent, undeground storage on affected lines will be in effect.
- Operate maximum legth trains on all lines except OPTO lines.
Plan 3 - Forecast of ice storm, sleet and freezing rain.
- Subwasy Storm Control Center at 370 Jay Street activated.
- Operate maximum length trains on all lines except OPTO lines.
- Local Storm Fighting Centers activated.
- All Ice Storm fighting equipment prepared for activation.
- G.O.'s and work trains will be cancelled where needed.
Plan 4 - Forecast of snow (5 inches or more)
- Subways Storm Control Center at 370 Jay Streeet activated.
- Operate maximum length trains on all lines Including OPTO lines.
- Underground storage in effect.
- Local Storm Fighting Centers activated.
- All Ice Storm fighting equipment prepared for activation.
- G.O.'s and work trains will be cancelled whre neeeded.
Do they mean shortening the train or cancelling trips?
:>) ~ Sparky
:>) ~ Sparky
David
I could've sworn there were only 10...
After Manhattan Bridge re-opens:
B Line +14 trains
D Line +16 trains
M Line -1 train
Q Line -14 trains
R Line +4 trains
W Line -11 trains
S (Grand Street) -1 train
Net = +7 trains
CBTC Equipment Installation >52 Cars
David
I was told by someone who saw the show that if you look carefully you'll see one of our frequent contributors wolfing down cold cuts while everyone else is gathered in front of the fire singing "Jingle Bells".
It makes a difference to me personally, and presumably lots of other people. If the GOs are in effect, I need to head out the door later today in one particular direction. If not, I can save time out in the blizzard by heading the other way, toward the L train.
And let me tell you, watching full-length trains pull through Classon Ave at regular frequency is a thing of beauty. I get a one-seat ride to Park Slope, to boot! AND I can transfer at Hoyt-Schermerhorn for a 6th Ave OR 8th Ave train. I say screw the Culverites, I could get used to this. :)
VC Madman
Da Hui
Stop bothering people and go drink a yellow milkshake.
Donald R Johnson a.k.a DJ
It was two in the morning on the crosstown line. It was fairly empty :)
I'll be taking the F again tonight from Classon Ave down to 4th, with the obligatory transfer at Hoyt-Schermerhorn. I can report back on crowding, if you like.
Nice to see you posting instead of lurking.
>>GG<< :>) ~ Sparky
PS-I need your email address for my mailings.
FTA report on Tren Urbano from 2002
Extremely doubtful.
First of all, the MTA is one of the few places left with such a rich pension plan that it in effect bribes people to leave young (police and fire are among the others). So headcount can be reduced quickly without any layoffs.
Second, lots of people have called for the government to "operate like a business" and downsize in tough times. But businesses downside because demand for their product/service drops, and there is nothing for some of their staff to do. The demand for public services doesn't go down in a recession, it goes up. What do businesses do when demand for their product/service is high but they are losing money? They raise prices.
If the MTA continues at this pace of lack of modernization thier may be a time that such actions would be needed. The result would be a big reduction in service.
As for demand improving in a weak economy. that analysis is flawed for two reasons
1) weak economy less people working thus fewer riders- the statistics for the months after the fare hike show this. the critics blame it on the fare hike but the truth is it was because of the loss of jobs
2) Selling a product at a loss does not push someone to sell more product and increse the loss. the reduce the supply of the product
Bus service would likely be where many of the cuts would be if any were to be implimented.
The MTA has hundreds of millions of dollars in savings that it could impliment without effecting prioroty one services that could be implimented in a way so that it does not need to lay off workers in large numbers. this is the way to go. The union should get thier heads out of the clouds and look at the big picture of job securty for thier employees
the Teachers union which I am a member of has thier heads so far up in the clouds it is rediculous. 99% of the stuff you read in the papers is so misleading it is not funny. Most of the stuff that klien and the mayor are implimenting is Great for teachers. Yes it makes the lazy olders teacher cringe because they can no longer coast through thier remaining years teaching the same tired ineffective material. Give me a student that knows his multilication table's and basic math vocabulary and I can teach him 8th grade math. The lack of kowledge leads to behavior issues
Sean@Temple
BTW, what is the R142S replacing? Not these.... They haven't been in service in many months.
-Stef
til next time
The Reefing project is done, cars will no longer be deposited into the Atlantic.
2 of the 58 Reserve Cars are currently working the Money Train out of Concourse Yard, 9020-21.
-Stef
I AM READY TO KILL THE FIRST VANDAL I SEE DEFACING A SUBWAY TRAIN.
I am just so miserable. And the sun picked a heck of a day to come out and melt the snow! Today, I can't go on the subway (I haven't for months) because mom has to sleep since she had work yesterday.
P.S.: I sent a message (via the internet) to the MTA discussing my plan to get rid of scratchiti.
Regards,
Jimmy
West side entrance of Columbia Heights rail station closed
Please use the east side entrance to the Columbia Heights Metrorail station as the east side entrance is closed because the escalators are out of service. We regret any inconvenience this may cause.
Luckily I don't use this station, so I won't have to figure it out. The escalator status page isn't any more helpful. Click here to see what it says.
Posted on:12/6/03 10:42:07 AM
Due to road conditions, NYC Transit has suspended Limited bus service. There are also scattered delays in local and express bus service city-wide.
Assume this also applies to NYCT and S.I.R.T. service.
Code to post photos:
<img src="http://www.whatever-your-new-url-is.com">
Code to post links:
<a href="http://www.whatever-your-new-url-is.com">Type the text you want it to say here</a>
Type it exactly as above, except putting your new www.whatever in the url.
I don't know the exact date, but I would guess around 1940.
Hint: That's G-5 No. 46 in front.
The train heads east on the Main Line while the Hempstead Branch goes off to the left.
Regards,
Jimmy
BTW the AirTrain has still been undergoing tests in the snow, today!!
Airtrain uses LIM propulsion with dynamic braking. It doesn't rely on wheel adhesion for tractive effort or most of its braking power.
Then there was their new feature "This Month in Transit History". What did they highlight?
1. Dec 23, 1946 had an all time record of 8,872,244 riders
2. Dec 15, 1980 German Shepherds started patrolling the subway.
3 Dec 11, 1988 Archer Ave Extension opens.
Then the had a cartoon Holiday Wrapper who composed a transit holiday rap song.
Get a look at this guy.
Holiday Wrapper
Did anyone get all they lyrics to 12 Days of Transit?
I got this much:
"On the 12th day of transit, the TA gave to me:
12 ???????
11 Buses Kneeling
10 Trains a Turning
9 Trains are leaving
8 ??????????
7 Train to Flushing
6 HiTech buses
5 Golden Tokens
4 Station Agents
3 Access A Rides
2 Metrocards
A Free Ride in New York City
Then they had another group of people singing "Frosty the Snowman" on the steps of Brooklyn Borough Hall. At one point, the camera took in the whole scene and I swear that I saw that there were about a dozen armed guards pointing submachine guns at the singers to encourage them to sing with spirit.
Frosty the Snowman
And finally they had some guy who was impersonating Al Roker the weatherman from Channel 4. The imposter weighed about 1/2 of what Al Roker weighs.
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
Was he still alive to see his son become so well known as a TV personality?
What is the closest the subways have come to Dec 23, 1946 which had an all time 1 day record of 8,872,244 riders?
THAT IS AN ABSOLUTE LIE! The guards said absolutely nothing about spirit. All they said was "You vill sink on za cant of zree".
Redbird Memorabilia was the ONLY segment worth saving via SP.
They always manage to stick in a FOOD segment in all the eps I seen.
BTW I too made some photos of my home station Massapequa Park today in the snow I got it on digital camera even though it was a tad cumbersome with my gloves on. My first time taking railfan pics!
Cool!
"BTW I too made some photos of my home station Massapequa Park today in the snow I got it on digital camera even though it was a tad cumbersome with my gloves on. My first time taking railfan pics!"
Congrats on your being initiated to railfan photography :) I'd love to see your pics, being that my house is only 2 blocks away.....
How cold is it ??????????
At 65 degrees, Hawaiians declare a two-blanket night.
At 60 degrees, Californians put on sweaters (if they can find one).
At 50 degrees, Miami residents turn on the heat.
At 45 degrees, Vermont residents go to outdoor concerts.
At 40 degrees, you can see your breath; Californians shiver uncontrollably;
Minnesotans go swimming.
At 35 degrees, Italian cars don't start.
At 32 degrees, water freezes; Minnesotans eat ice cream; Canadians go
swimming.
At 20 degrees, politicians begin to talk about the homeless; New York City
water freezes.
At 15 degrees, French cars don't start.
At 5 degrees, American cars don't start.
At 0 degrees, Alaskans put on T-shirts.
At -10 degrees, German cars don't start; eyes freeze shut when you blink.
At -15 degrees, you can cut your breath and use it to build an igloo;
Arkansans stick their tongues on metal objects; Miami residents cease to
exist.
At -20 degrees, cat insists on sleeping in pajamas with you; politicians
actually do something about the homeless; Minnesotans shovel snow off
roof; Japanese cars don't start.
At -25 degrees, too cold to think; you need jumper cables to get the driver
going.
At -30 degrees, you plan a two week hot bath; Swedish cars don't start.
At -40 degrees, Californians disappear; Minnesotans button top button;
Canadians put on sweaters; your car helps you plan your trip South.
At -50 degrees, Congressional hot air freezes; Alaskans close the bathroom
window.
At -80 degrees, Hell freezes over; polar bears move South; Viking Fans
order hot cocoa at the game.
At -90 degrees, lawyers put their hands in their own pockets.
Well, we are getting plenty of snow in the New York area and I'm sure that I'll wind up with around a foot of the white smutz here in Hastings-on-Hudson.
#3 West End Jeff
CSX is still rolling too ... them dash9's seem to be handling the white stuff handily ... then again, it's not the white clumpy wet stuff like we had last year this time. Usually when you guys down south int he city get hammered by a coastal, ain't so much up here and when WE get hammered by lake effect, it's a big yawn to you guys. This one's an equal opportunity MESS. :)
$175 that we don't have to plow our 1/2 mile road. :(
Regards,
Jimmy
#3 West End Jeff
Packer fans don't do that until the temperature is near absolute zero.
-Harry
These are old IRT plates, and Line T was the Third Avenue El. Judging by the high chainage numbers, I would guess it was somewhere towards the north end of the line. Unfortunately, I don't have single-line drawings for that line.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.5 Now Available!
5117 T: Reverse direction into one of the tracks at 149th Street.
6844 T: I'm not sure, I'll look it up.
Incidentally, the Gun Hill Road station is chained around the area of 800+00.
5117 would have been at the south end of the 149 St station,
middle track. 6844 protected the curve on the s/b local
track approaching 183 St.
Mark
Sorry, double-negative....No wonder none of us could get it......
Bill "Newkirk"
Was Miss Subways related to Miss Rheingold (beer)?
Anyone have any pictures to post?
--Mark
According to a few books I have read, it ended in 1976 because of complaints by women's groups.
I'm not sure if they won anything.
I don't think so.
No. Try the 'Net or the Transit Museum.
I have no pictures to post, but Ellen's Cafe and Bake Shop, at the S/W corner of Bway and Chambers St. lower Manhattan NYC was decorated with several dozen Miss Subways posters, where the walls met the ceiling, in the dining area (booths and tables). Ellen's at this location closed end of April 2001. I don't know where the Miss Subways posters went to. Hopefully the NYC Transit Museum, or another Ellen's franchise : midtown West 50 something street.
The last Miss Subways poster I saw was on the Canarsie Line, summer of 1972. It read, in part, in so many words, "and she's engaged to (don't faint, girls!)an orthodontist!" There was a sticker on it reading, "This ad demeans women."
"Miss Subways " was echoed as "Miss Turnstiles" in the 1947 musical film, "On The Town", w. Frank Sinatra and Gene Kelly.
Hell no.
By the way, if I can find it through the archives, you already asked this question and I gave you an answer.
And I did give you a couple of the R46 sign readings
I know most of the readings, but not every single one of them.
Question: How many subscribers to a newsgroup does it take to change a light bulb?
Answer: 275
1 to change the light bulb and to post that the light bulb has been changed
14 to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and how the light bulb could have been changed differently
7 to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs
27 to flame posters for spelling/grammar errors in posts about changing light bulbs
41 to correct spelling/grammar flames
6 to argue over whether it's "lightbulb" or "light bulb" ...
Another 6 to condemn those 6 as anal-retentive
2 industry professionals to inform the group that the proper term is "lamp"
27 to post URLs where one can see examples of different light bulbs
12 to post to the group that they will no longer post because they cannot handle the light bulb controversy
4 to suggest that posters request the light bulb FAQ
44 to ask what is a "FAQ"
2 to post reasons why the light bulb burning out is the result of a
government conspiracy
4 to say "didn't we go through this already a short time ago?"
43 to say "do a Google search on light bulbs"
8 to accuse posters of being pedophiles
6 to file abuse reports on posters for posting off-topic
20 to accuse the OP of being a troll
1 lurker to respond to the original post 6 months later and start the whole thing all over again!!!!!!
Shouldn't it be 276? There would be one person to tell others to call someone or write someone and ask how to change the lightbulb. :-P
That's a "lamp".
That's right, real.
1 to blame it on PATURKEY and another to complain about politicizing the subject while then using the rest of their posting to politicize just about everything else in the world.
CG
Bet its red too!
2 to post reasons why the light bulb burning out is the result of a
government conspiracy
(it's IN there) ... :)
AGGGRRRRHHHhhhhh........
Those are LETTERS: "F" - "A" - "Q"
Therefore it should be an "FAQ" since the pronounciation of the LETTER "F" is spelled and thus sounded: "ef".
;-)=
HEY! what are you doing nit picking on my nit pick!
I think you are trying to make this thread even longer than it has to be!
: ) Elias
Elias
8 to accuse posters of being pedophiles
Most of the thread consists of posts demonstrating one of the actions Selkirk was describing. JM happened to choose this one.
Tasteless, absolutely! Insensitive, perhaps given your calling. Ad hominem attack, no.
Only reason why I posted it was to bring a little levity to some of the behavioral characteristics that have become prevalent in general lately. That's one of my own foibles, I prefer to remind gently. Perhaps TOO gently.
this was a fun thread Kev, let's do it again.
Q. How many MBTA Green Line Type 8's does it take to screw in a light bulb?
A. None, because they keep falling off the ladder!
Q. Lets try this: How many Type 8's does it take to drill the yard?
A. None, they keep falling off the ladder.
Barum-pum.
=========================================================================
Back during the war, when anyone could get a job braking, the D&H hired a new kid from Troy.
The Superintendent gave him his copy of the Book of Rules and told him, "Now take this and study
it. Keep it with you at all times on the railroad, because any situation that might come up is covered
in the Book of Rules."
So the kid takes his book, says, "Thank you, Sir, I sure will!" and goes home to study the book.
That night he gets a call for No. 7, the less-than-premier sleeper train from Troy to Montreal. He gets
on the train at Troy, and the conductor tells him to go back and make sure the lanterns are all
lighted and ready to go on the rear platform. The train pulls out while he's walking back through the
sleepers, and up around West Waterford he's walking through one car when he sees a woman's
bare posterior exposed through the curtains of an upper berth.
"Hmmmmm How do I handle this? Oh yeah, the Book of Rules!" So he gets out the Good
Book, then runs to the rear of the train, grabs a red lantern and hangs it on the berth. Next comes a
traveling salesman, who sees parted curtains and the red light, and gets the entirely wrong idea.
Needless to say, there was blood on the moon when the word got back to the Old Man the following
day, and the kid had a message waiting on his return to report to the Superintendent's Office RIGHT
NOW!
He walks in, and the Old Man inquires politely, "Son, what in the world were you thinking of
when you hung that red lamp on that poor woman's berth on Monday night?" "Well, Sir," the new
hire started, "you told me that anything that came up on the railroad was covered by a rule in the
Book of Rules."
"Yes, I did," said the Old Man. "But where in hell did you find a rule to cover that one?" "Right
here," the new guy replied. "It says, 'The rear end of a sleeper, exposed by night, must be protected
by a red light."
Next day the kid was a Trainmaster.
Given that I have been accused of having a "dirty mind" and I know wher the origin of the term "Red Light district came from, this tends to pop into my mind: "do they not know what the red light means, or are they advertising?"
The red bulbs predate John's latest cinematic adventure in Hamilton/Parkville, which just concluded.
We all knew in advance that Waters was filming in the area, as the neighborhood media was full of it.
Reportedly, the film will be of Sex Addicts and it was reported that at least one scene has naked ladies dancing on the rooftops. This, obviously, was filmed before the "white death" fell from the sky.
Personally, I prefer Barry Levinson filming in Baltimore. His last two pictures featured streetcars!!!
In all my OWN years, I only met one priest (I went to Graymoor, so let's just say I had FAR more exposure to priests and monks than many) who was a little "ummm ... curious" ... and in that case, all was respected and all was cool, no funny business. Only one I ever had any contact with and the guy was alright despite his own preferences. I've never met anybody that ever had a problem - 'nuff for the anectdotals - it IS a sensitive topic, PARTICULARLY among those who never sinned.
Historically, the so-called "sensitive" were gravitated towards ministries in the FIRST place, where if they were true, and they were celebate, were ACCEPTED as "fellow lambs of God" ... a requirement of the "calling," an acceptable "profession" for those motivated by their personality types as viewed by society. Reality is though, there's been one HELL of a smear campaign against Catholics, and no attention whatsoever to OTHER clergy ... that's the reason for the raw nerves I would expect. As someone who studied for the priesthood myself but didn't last the first "retreat" I know a little more about it than many.
Bottom line, I have no doubts that Brother Elias is QUITE butch, but with all the NONSENSE in the media singling out ONE religion (makes us Catholics sympathize with our Muslim fellow followers of God) we're all a bit touchy about the subject owing to all the false witness. Now leave me alone, and I'll put down this child. As they said in "Monsters Inc", "We've got a 23-19! ROGER ROGER!" ... and that's what we've reaped ... :(
Had to speak up, but yes, a line was crossed because of WHOM it was addressed to and the implications brought about by the very same out of control media that insists everything is OK, Halliburton had expenses because there's a war on ... sorry for interjecting here. Shows you though just how out of control our government and our media is lately where we've all been turned on EACH OTHER instead of Al Qaeda and Enron. :(
And as I said, in times of a theocratic government, DAMNED shame the nosnense that is being foisted ... against ALL religions except for Jerry Fallwell's "Donald Duck Church" (anyone who is a "disciple" knows what the "DD" reference means ... fact is, the problem is NOT unique to one brand of "J" ... but it sure does hurt when only ONE religion is singled out ... the "child molester" bit in what I posted was deliberately left IN because that claim seems to be replacing "LIBERAL" now that the wall is down, Putin has brought back the KGB and we can't talk about that, so "Child Molester" seems to be the big draw to justify the right wing these days ... curious indeed. :(
But I digress. :)
You can choose not to believe me, but I challenge you to show that such low down, unprovoked personal attacks are in my character here at Subtalk.
With the different variancies of the interent worked out, Your words are accepted.
Thanky You, my friend.
Elias
BTW, since when did monks start using computers? Oh, don't tell me I'm going to have to appologize for that one too.
The Rule of St. Benedict requires that the abbot provide each of his monks with a stylus and writing tablet. The shape and nature of these impliments has changed over the years, but their intent has not.
Surely one of the first images one has of a monk is a man in a long black robe hunched over a writing table working on scrolls with a quill.
We can scroll faster now.
From the beginning of western monasticism, monks were the only learned people around, and thus it remained until the advent of the printing press, which once again put books and learning within the reach of more and more people.
Today anybody can attend a university, and study in any of hundreds of diciplines. Our library has over 100,000 volumes in it, and since the closure of our schools here in North Dakota it has been specializing in religious and spiritual works.
The BQ section of the University Library in Dickinson occupies three shelves, in our library it occupies a whole room. Unfortunately, our library is not 'on line' yet, you must still look up a book in the card catalog.
It took DSU a whole summer to computerize its card catalog, and that used 20 students working full time all summer. Our library is much larger, and we have but one librarian, and he is using a rebuilt 486 box. While we are a member of the state library system, and the state would love to see us digitalize our catalog, it ain't going to happen soon.
Elias
Why isn't Charles G's similar post drawing any ire? It's clearly because of the heavily biased pro-Train Dude, anti-Jersey Mike agenda of many on this board, where one can do no harm, and the other can do no good.
You're taking all of this far too seriously. If you want to spend all your posting time taking offense at everything and ranting, go ahead - but it will be strictly your affair, not ours.
You don't have a magicwand that goes "poof" and makes everyone you think you don't like disappear, so just live with it - if you like being on the board, focus on what you like.
I am not a duplicitous asshole like you, and I choose to defend my friends when they are attacked.
You're taking all of this far too seriously. If you want to spend all your posting time taking offense at everything and ranting, go ahead - but it will be strictly your affair, not ours.
Why are you so obsessed with how others want to spend their time?
You don't have a magicwand that goes "poof" and makes everyone you think you don't like disappear, so just live with it - if you like being on the board, focus on what you like.
Which is exactly why when I am the subject of attacks from someone, I have to take them to task and expose these people for what they are.
I do not have a single shred of respect for you and have not for quite some time, when you make a response to any of my posts that is positive in any way, I do not want it. So if you don't want people to waste time on SubTalk, set an example: Don't ever respond to me.
No, only a little foolish sometimes defending someone from the proverbial windmill.
"Which is exactly why when I am the subject of attacks from someone,"
You are not under attack.
THAT is why you are a duplicitous asshole.
You post a lot of great facts and know your railroad history (and I bet you play a better game of chess than I do - of course that's not saying much). But there are attributes and abilities you will not possess now but that you will possess in 10 years. And that does affect what you post and how you approach people and issues. That's as true on Subtalk as it is anywhere else. Maybe on another site you have a better chance of finding the fantasy you're looking for. But in time it won't matter anyway. You're going to get older, wiser, gain perspective. You can't help it. You just will. It's inevitable.
That's it. Now, I am sorry if your feelings were hurt. I was rough on you there, wasn't I? OK, that probably wasn't very nice.
I promise not to do that anymore. Now let's move on.
I originally did not want to make this post, but I felt that somehow the story hadn't been closed if I wouldn't. I feel that by continuing to respond to you, I am only stooping to your level, a level that you have placed yourself in with your misguided ideals. Therefore, as soon as I am done posting this, I will resurrect my killfile especially for you. I know I have said that ignoring problems doesn't make them go away, but with you, paying attention to them doesn't either. So now instead of just taking the praise that you give me as worthless sentiment from a damnable individual, I won't see it at all.
You are entitled to your opinion, but the world does not share it. There is no society on earth which conforms to your view, and no court un any country which would rule consistent with your paradigm.
You need to do some growing up. That's not a bad thing.
You should have told the Founding Fathers that. Oh, but I forgot, you're not old enough.
As for not one society on Earth conforming to my view: Irrelevant. At one time, there was not one society on Earth that respected the equal rights of foreigners of women, or even of any men other than the king. If some class of people is not currently enfranchised does not mean they do not deserve to be enfranchised.
As for Ron, it's too bad he's done all of his growing up and remains a fool.
And before I forget, and I guess Ron doesn't realize this, but because of my age I am completely entitled to every right that is given to a citizen of the United States except for running for Congress or the Presidency, therefore if he wants to trot out his argument about "no society conforms..." he shouldn't do it against me, only Ron with his twisted dementia conforms to his view.
Is the Congress/Presidency an age thing or is it something else (I seem to remember some talk about Arnold Schwarzenegger not being allowed to be Pres because of being Austrian)?
Here in the UK, I have every right except running for office and getting affordable motor insurance. Come July 2004, I'll be able to do the former, but it'll be July 2008 before the latter. (Not that it matters - I have little intention of running for office and even less of ever driving anything more powerful than an 80cc motor scooter).
Now as for political office, the constitution specifies some restrictions:
House of Representatives: 25 years old, 7 years citizenship. I will be able to run in 2008 (there is no election in 2007).
Senate: 30 years old, 9 years citizenship. I will be able to run in 2012.
Presidency: 35 years old, 14 years residence, US citizenship by birth. I will be able to run in 2020 (no election in 2017).
Not that I intend to run for any of these. Also the Governor of New York has a similar requirement as president, without the natural birth part. One need only be a US citizen for 14 years. I will be able to run for that (I won't) in 2018.
All other political office for which I am a constituent has no restriction. Theoretically, a 10 year old could be elected to the State Legislature, but he would be unable to serve because he would never be able to take the oath of office.
Now you know how I feel when you and JM respond to his posts.
Train Dude is one of the few sources of ON TOPIC information on SubTalk. And he is a NO B.S. kind of guy
Jersey Mike is someone who has general knowledge of railroading and is pretty intelligent. but likes to stir the pot, sometimes without thinking the conssequences through.
Elias is a person who loves the Subway but has devoted his life to G-d. This devotion has caused G-d to call him to a lovely monastery in North Dakota, far from the Subway. Elias is a good person who has consoled SubTalkers who were going through personal crises with loving counseling. Elias Also accepted Jersey Mike's apology and called him friend. This forgiveness exemplifies the faith that Elias has in his religious tradition. Elias is one of those few SubTalkers that I have a great amount of respect for. You folks who seem to view SubTalk as a game and try to have the greatest amount of posts in a month don't even come close to gaining that respect. Selkirk TMO, Sea Beach Fred, Rhush Hour Sprcialist, Bill From Maspeth, Todd Glickman, On The Juice, Anon-e-Mouse, NIMBY killer, Train Dude, and of course, Elias are QUALITY people who I am proud to consider my friends. While there are others who are good people. they are the ones who stand out. You and Mike do not stand out.
Calling someone a child molester is horrible! You've really sunk to a new low.
I'd say more, but I've got to head off to the playground with a bag of candy.
5 threads about the upcoming Light Bulb Fan Trip
10 pages of links to Light Bulb Photographs
3 Discussions about IRT vs BMT Lamps
15,976 Discussions about the Lamps in the Second Avenue Subway
and
wait for it
2,003,456 discussions about the possible installation of light bulbs at 76th Street!
Netcopping is OFF TOPIC!!! Go sit in the corner and think about what you did.
Please inform poster #618607 that he's anal-retentive.
Answer: 275..................."
Sounds like you're describing SubTalk !
Bill "Newkirk"
Q: How many SubTalk members does it take to change a light bulb?
A: One to change the bulb, and one thousand to complain that the talk policy is being unfairly applied.
Q: How many Elephants does it take to change a lightbulb?
A: One. They're not stupid.
Q: How many Republicans does it take to change a lightbulb?
A: Three. One to screw in the bulb, one to screw the secretary, and third to screw the rest of us.
Q: How many moderators does it take to change a light bulb?
A: Two. One to change the light bulb and one to remind you that there are plenty of other boards on the internet where you can change lightbulbs, and that this is a place for the discussion of transit-related issues.
Q. How many Floridians does it take to change a lightbulb?
A: Dont know for sure, they're still counting.
Q: How many SDLP polititions does it take to change lightbulbs?
A: None. They're already screwed.
Q: How many Congressmen does it take to change a lightbulb ?
A: Twenty-one. One to change it and twenty to form a fact-finding committee to learn more about how its done.
Q: How many quantum physicists does it take to change a lighbulb?
A: Its impossible to be certain.
Q: How many Kennedy assassination conspiracy theorists does it take to screw in a light bulb?
A: 15-One to screw it in, five to say he acted alone, one to say that someone hidden in the ceiling helped, one to film it, one to do an intense examination of the film and conclude that a) it was tampered with and b) it proves that the first screwer did not act alone, one to insist that the bulb was altered after it was unscrewed, three tramps to walk across the room an hour later, one to insist LBJ really screwed the bulb in, and one to accuse all the others of being disinformation specialists.
Q: How many Californians does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
A: None, they all screw in a hot-tub.
Q: How many tech support people does it take to change a light bulb?
A: Well, we have exactly the same system here, and the light bulb is working fine
Q: How many tech support people does it take to change a light bulb?
A: Have you tried turning it off and back on again?
Q: How many synagogue members does it take to change a lightbulb?
A: All of them The rabbi changes it it, while the rest of the congregation moan hes going in the wrong direction if he plans to change anything and anyway the new lightbulb wasn't as good as the old one.
Q: How many computer programmers does it take to change a lightbulb?
A: None, its a hardware problem.
For the Brits only:
One from Barry Cryer and Willie Rushton (RIP) when they toured together as Two Old Farts in the Night. (Well, only one of them told the joke, but I cant remember which one.)
Q: How many Jimmy Tarbucks does it take to change a light bulb?
A: One. The fat little bastard can stand on a chair.
Anyway, the story explains how starting in 1978 a group of railfans, among tham George Wood, a Conrail conductor, began to lobby for the use of the old paint scheme. Conrail demurred, but when Meto-North took over, the group, now including a Bronx railfan named Joe Trifono, tried again. This time, they suceeded in getting the state of Connecticut to repaint 4 former NHRR FL-9s that the state acquired from Conrail and was having rebuilt. The article quotes Walter Drummond, head of the NHRR Historical and Technical Association, as speculating that the state agreed because they felt "a little overwhelmed by Metro-North and New York . . I think they wanted to preserve the Connecticut history." Sadly, Mr. Trifono, who advised the state on the details of the paint scheme, never saw the fruits of his labor. He died of a heart attack in 1983 in his early 30s. The engines went into service in 1985. Later, the NHRR paint scheme was used in the engines used for Shore Line East.
Regards,
Jimmy
Thanks!
Dan
As some of you may be aware, Oren's Transit Page went down in September. I am pleased to announce that it has returned and includes many new pictures and features. New pictures are from the Washington, DC area including behind the scenes from Ride-On, New York, and Germany. There is also a complete Ride-On roster and a list of which Ride-On garage operates each route, plus all the pictures from before the site went down. I invite you to check all of this out at www.orenstransitpage.com, the same address as before.
Sincerely,
Oren H.
Webmaster of Oren's Transit Page
Please note: My e-mail address is still being reconfigured. If your e-mail is bounced back, please hold on to it and try to resend it in a few days.
www.orenstransitpage.com
http://www.orenstransitpage.com
BTW, tonite I rode PATH from WTC to Newark and back, just for the ride. Pretty enjoyable. Really dig the part through the middle of the Shared Assets Kearny yard. (Busy over there too.) And nice to be able to make the Lex Ave IRT-WTC connection again. That temporary station is gonna be pretty rough to use, however, during cold spells. Brrr.
That's a *different* smell.,..
Mike I'm not picking a fight [ ;-D ] but last I heard iron rusts. Anyway, as to the 'river' theory, that too was questioned because of the fact that you can smell that aroma a long way from the nearest tunnel. Ever use the end-of-the-platforms' entrance on 6th Ave between 31st and 30th Sts? I swear on a windless day you can catch a good whiff of the PATH scent UP ON THE SIDEWALK! (Must be a vent near the entrance.) Cudahy or someone wondered if the smell was caused by ozone from the electrical system.
BTW, this afternoon on my trip from WTC to NWK -At JSQ heading west I heard over the conductor's radio that a "cable is down near the Kearny pocket track." Sounded like they said it was partially across Track G. Anyways, we headed out and got to signals LA10/LB10 near old Marion Jct (parallel to Newark Ave near the Joseph Cory furniture warehouse). Sat there for awhile then continued west to the crossover switches at signal 753Z, out in the wilds near Kearny trailer yard. There we halted a few minutes while an eastbound approached on the westbound track. Up ahead a track crew (who had evidently just cleaned out the switch) stood by. The eastbound slowly approached then stopped. The tripper arm had snow packed around it and wouldn't fall! The track guys hurriedly cleared a space for it to come down, it did, and they quickly piled onto the head car of the eastbound. He cleared and we were on our way. Pretty cool!
I can't say why the smell would be pronounced at the 33rd St. station since there are no iron rings north of 12th Street, unless it is from air being pulled through the tubes.
The reason that rubber and the PATH Smell are similar is that they both involve reactions with sulfur - click here for some more info.
On opening day, the predominant smell in the downtown tunnels was recently-cured concrete. I expect the PA also treated the rings with the antibacterial agent as part of verifying their condition.
Anecdotal reports from around the time the system opened indicated that the Smell spread outward from Hoboken throughout the rest of the system.
Click here for more info on these bacteria.
I also wonder -if PATH treated the iron with an anti-bacterial wouldn't the smell have diminshed? (I don't think it has.) I also thought I read in the TIMES article that the PA had considered the odor as being produced by iron bacteria but then rejected this though I don't remember why. Maybe because the odor is present in parts of the system that are remote from the iron sections? Finally, do the old Steinway tunnels have the same cast iron sectioning?
I recall the Smell used to be much stronger in the Hoboken area than it is now.
The viewing area of each wimdow appears to be about six inches high and each of the three windows is the same size.
Does anyone have access to info that would confirm this?
http://www.rypn.org/Briefs/september2003/030912.html
Huh??
BTW, this shouldn't be a translation issue (unless you mean cultural translation) since Japan Times is an English-language paper. I agree it is poorly written, though.
I say we buy some space and send in pics that no one will know what they are pictures of since it will all be from the States. :)
The ad space is only one of the 12 fukubukuros. Photos will be displayed on one entire train each on the Ginza (6 car) and Maruonouchi (6 car)lines for 15 days.
The 11 other 10,000,000 fukubukuros include among others:
Having 300 copies of a 68 page magazine edited and published for you.
Travel on the Mediteranean in a private jet.
Statues of the "Seven Gods of Happiness" in pure gold.
I've also noticed that some department stores have fukubukuros as expensive as 100,000,000!
Track Dept will go out there with a broom and start 'sweeping off' the accumulated snow(in yards) that is preventing a good contact between the rail and shoe,signal dept will tend to the stop arms,and un-heated switch area's.
On the road they go out with snow fighting equipment,maybe an old R12-with a special shoe that spray's alchoal on the third rail not to get it drunk- but to keep it from freezing over.
Yes it's a good time for OVERTIME-for xmas. then head over to G.C. museum store and spend it all!
Were there ever tests done to simulate snow conditions? I SWEAR I've seen a photo somewhere of a R143, or a R142/A going through a set of tracks covered with fake snow.
Remember that subway documentary (not the one on the ultimate ride) on the Discovery Channel? That is where it's from.
It shows footage of the MTA testing CBTC's functionality in a simulated snowstorm.
For a moment I thought I was seeing things. :-)
I think the heat turns off after an hour even if they are topsided.
"When was the last time you saw an AD for I-95, or any state or federal DoT?"
They are rare, I admit, but they do exist for some roads (usually private toll roads). There are "fly Pocahontas" billboards in Richmond advertising the Pocahontas Parkway (VA 895), and there is some advertising for the Dulles Greenway. Dulles Greenway is much more of a private facility then any other toll road you'll ever travel on...they even offer their own version of frequent flier miles, or guest rewards if you will :)
Major advertisers are automobile makers and car dealers.
I think, if i did fly, I'd be on that first train out instead of sleeping in an airport for 3 days to be on the news.
NJT GP40PH-2B #4203 arriving Lindenwold with train 4812
Amtrak AEM7 westbound at Frankford Junction
Metro North ConnDOT MU car at 30th Street Station
Market Street El 46th St station
ditto
SEPTA Subway-Surface car approaching 40th Street portal
Route 34 Subway-Surface car at 40th Street
PATCO Collingswood station
PATCO eastbound leaving Collingswood station
PATCO was running 6-car trains with only cars 3 and 4 open. I got the same train (six Budd singles) to start my trip (Collingswood to Lindenwold) and to end it (Philly to Collingswood).
* ryan
Photos posted here in a little while.
* ryan
* ryan
FUN4U huh ;-)
Please share in my misery:-(
My left hand almost fell off, and my right hand froze to my camera. I literally could not move my right hand or remove my camera from it. This occured when I was photographing at Corona, easily the most brutal portion of my trip.
And where were you probably? Relaxing in a warm house, in a bed with an electric blanket...
Feel any better?
Unless you are nuts like me, and like being out there! :)
Parents up in Massapequa got some snow I think.......
The other is "New Jersey Trolleys In Color" by Joseph Eid & Barker Gummere. I have both and both are excellant resources.
"Public Service" is a lot thicker and covers virtually every single trolley line that ever existed in New Jersey.
"Trolleys in Color" has a ton more pictures, all of them are in color. It's pretty amazing, some of the color pics from the 40's and 50's look like they were taken yesterday!!!
You could probably order them from Amazon.com - go for it, they're really great books.
If I had to choose only one, however - I'd go for Trolleys in Color.
Used to be if you wanted comprehesive information like that, you started to look for sources and prepared to make phone calls, write letters and make trips to far flung libraries and repositories. You shared your own researches with knowledgeable indivisuals in exchange for access to the fruits of their schoalrly labors.
Now you ask a question on a bulletin board or you email someone.
I get inquiries like that all the time at rapidtransit.net. MOst recently I received this from a college student:
I am student at Texas A&M University and request your help for an analysis as a part of my coursework .
It would be extremely helpfull if you could provide me with the total third rail track mile length and the cities they are in North America.
It would probably be even more helpful if I could take his exams for him. I pointed him to some sources and typically didn't get a thank you.
Please forgive me, NIMBY, people are asking for info here all the time, and I and like to reply in detail, as do others, but the comprehensiveness of your request got me thinking. Imagine if their were Bulletin Boards a century ago:
I need to know all the Secrets of the Universe. Oh, and also the nature of atomic structure, space and time.
Please be detailed, and it would be very helpful if you could respond in German.
--TIA, Albert Einstein
www.freewebs.com/tstanyc
Until relatively recently (1980? or so) Brooklyn bus lines pretty much traced the former trolley routes. The franchises specified particular routings, and the bus followed them, by and large.
Lower numbered bus routes (before more recent renumberings) were never trolleys, with a few exceptions. Without looking it up, all the routes from 1 to 9 were never trolleys. 10 (New Lots) was. 11 and 12 werem't. 13 and above I don't recall right now.
When lines were converted to bus, sometimes small adjustments were made. Church Avenue changed its eastern destination from Canarsie Depot (Bristol Street) to Rockaway Avenue. It also changed its west destination. It was still First Avenue on the rollsigns, but the trolley operated right to water's edge on prow, while the bus ended (IIRC) at First and 39th, on the street. At the western end of Church Avenue itself, at the Culver Line, there was a small piece of prow for the trolley. The buses used this eastbound, but had to detour around it westbound.
Likewise, the Flatbush car ended at loops at Cadman Plaza and between Avenues T and U, the buses didn't. The Flatbush car went through Grand Army Plaza both ways along the east side of the plaza, the buses don't. And so on and so on.
Also, I want the exact routing b/c I'm kind of a historical buff when it comes to certain things, such as this.
That's correct. You can't imagine how rural that part of Brooklyn was even after the end of World War II. The Flatbush Avenue trolleys said "Avenue U" on their signs, but they only made it to mid-block between T and U where they turned on a loop around a little lunch stand on the west side of the street. If you walked up to the junction of Flatbush and U it was basically a crossroads in the middle of nowhere.
I personally like looking for transit-related stuff in libraries. I've found large maps, reams of studies and old books about things that never could be summarized, described or scanned into a message index.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Regards,
Jimmy
Hong Kong
:-)
http://www.railfanwindow.com/gallery/96St1239
and
http://www.railfanwindow.com/gallery/96StBC/PDRM2123
Or BMT. Yeah, the one in the Bronx. But it's elevated.
Brooklyn Bridge
Union Square
23rd Street
Grand Central
What the heck was that all about? I don't even wanna know what it did after 42nd Street, but I didn't care since that was where I needed to get off.
That happened on an R-40M W last Sunday. I got on at Pacific and the crew was instructed to run nonstop to 36th, but the R directly in front of us foiled those plans. (But, this being Murphy territory, we didn't make an extra stop at, say, 9th to kill time. No, we just hung out behind the R north of 25th and north of 36th.) At 36th I thought I heard over the radio that we were to make our next stop Stillwell(!), but we made all West End stops, so that must have been addressed to somebody else..
I was on a 5 that ran local from 14th to 42nd, then express on the local to 125th.
Announcement
Eastern Pkway
Myrtle
Essex
Canal
Are grade crossings being systematically removed via elevation or was that Mineola job a one-shot deal?
I remember when Freeport still had grade crossings.
I remember when they upgraded Merrick from hand cranked gates to automatic crossing gates. They did not upgrade Freeport, it kept the hand cranked gates, because, as my Father told me, they were going to elevate the tracks there instead.
The closest thing the came to a program was the elimination of grade crossings on the Babylon... First they did Merrick Bellmore and Wantaugh (IIRC) putting temporary tracks to the south of the existing tracks. During this evolution the M1s came into service, and so new platforms had to be built, and so these temporary platforms were all west of Merrick Avenue.
(I have vivid rememberances of 12-9s on the tracks during this time period.)
Eventually the elevated track was finished, and they moved on to elevate Seford and the Massapequas.
I remember the Herricks Road crash. A van load of kids (who ought not have had any elevated ETOH,) thought to pass a lowered gate, (after all the train will stop in the station, eh?) I guess they did not expect a NON-STOP train in the MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT.
The Father of one of the dead kids was a county legislator who was OPPOSED to the grade crossing elimination (elevation- he was holding out for a subway elimination.) on the grounds that it would built a wall through town.
My remeberences of the Merrick elimination project was that it OPENED UP the town, with MORE ways to cross the tracks than before.
Oh well, you ellect your politician and you choose your problems.
Elias
Actually I *was* aware that one of the Massapequas was elevated earlier, but I did not realise that it was that early, nor which one it was. Put that really does not affect the rest of my tale...
Elias
Elias
Ironically, cab signals were on the line, but not automatic stops like today's ASC system, which had they been in place, would have prevented the accident. The engineer's lame reason for blowing through a signal or two was he 'passed out', but this dosn't make sense since releasing the controller handle on a '54 will dump the brakes. He claims the cab signal whistle was blowing when he woke up, and by the time he realized what was going on, it was too late. Uh huh.
After the Richmond Hill accident, the first version (3 aspect) of the modern day ASC system was installed. What baffles me, though, is the ICC report on the RVC accident referrs to a subway style trip arm stop device on the '54s.
It was reported in the press at the time of Richmond Hill, that it was common practice for crews to pass through stop and proceed signals without actually stopping or even slowing much. That could explain the rash of rear enders on the LIRR at the time, though realize also the MP-54s didn't have speedometer in them (and never did).
BTW, some steam locomotives on the LIRR had ASC on them, according to the the LIRR's ASC rules (issued 1951)
But, yes, the engineer COULD have very well passed out, slumped forward, and his body kept the controller handle pushed down into a running position!!!!
This is one of the reasons today's equipment has the alerter system instead of a mechanical dead-man feature which could be easily tampered with, or, as I mention, the engineer could have passed out and leaned right over onto the controller.
And as for that "legend" of one of the sliced MP54's being welded back together, I personally think that's a bunch of manure. There was so much damage that it wouldn't have been worth even trying. This is the first time anyone's ever mentioned that "legend".
Even this is not so much of an issue. A drowsey operator can drift in and out of "momentary periods of sleep" and still keep his hands on the controls. It only takes a moment, your eyes drift closed, but you are still holding down the control driving the train.
This is why I do not even like to drive a car after I have eaten. I is easy to become drowsey driving a car or a train.
Elias
Maybe, maybe not. But employee morale was in the dumpster, and the LIRR had been having a rash of minor accidents at the time.....
I've actually not seen many car switch elevators besides the boring SSAC freight types. But yeah, same basic design. On elevators, they get up to 3 or 4 speeds (level, jog, one floor run, high speed), though on an elevator, they are speeds, not power levels. Also, there's slow reversal - i.e. going from foward to reverse just stops the car. I've heard from LIRR oldtimers that they sometimes stopped the MP-54s in the yard by punching into reverse switching. No wonder those things had a bad rep in the later years...
Does the gate car have electro-pnmeumatic braking, too?
RVC came in 1951 (remember the nasty wreck in 1950. Freeport opened in 1957.
I think the last ones done were in 1981-1982.....
The Redwood platforms were the temporary platforms. No point in building a concrete monster, just to chew it up again when the line was elevated.
Before that it was on the ground. There were steps in the car, and you got off at ground level.
Elias
There was pressure and planning to do the most obvious grade crossing eliminations--in order:
Grade crossings in NYC
Grade crossings on the Babylon Branch
Grade crossings on the Main Line west of Hicksville
Theze are the areas with the busiest roads and most frequent trains. NYC grade crossing elimination began in earnest in the 1900 decade.
The first two have been accomplished (except isn't there a grade crossing in Little Neck somewhere?) and they've been nibbling away at the Main Line which really needs it.
Some critical crossings have been eliminated for years, like the Ronkonkoma Line over Deer Park Avenue.
File that one under "Some People's Laws". (You can also blame it on Dimocrats, I'm Sure, since Rekeeplikans would never have passed such blatently anti-business nonsence in the first place.)
: )- Elias
Is it possible that those roads were built or extended *after* the rule went away, or had some other exemption to it.
Or have I been smoking something?
There were similar crossings in CT on the line going to Winsted (that even survived the removal of the tracks). Maybe I have my states confused, but I think not.
Elias
That crossing on Rte 1 is in Edison NJ. I don't know whether it is active anymore either -- the last train I saw on it was in 1991.
CG
Yes, that's another.
Yep. Little Neck Parkway, just west of the station. While Little Neck Parkway is a busy thorofare elsewhere, it doesn't get much traffic in the grade crossing area.
As far as I know, the last grade crossing elimination on the LIRR was Herricks Road, which of course was a huge, long-delayed, far-over-budget fiasco.
Most of the line is adjacent to residences on at least one side. For whatever the safety value of elevation might be, no one wants a trestle in the backyard.
The trolley showed up, packed as heck, and I took some pics of it, but by now I was down by 43rd st for some reason. After that I, for some odd reason, didn't walk straight back home, I just kinda kept going. I wound up walking down Baltimore to the portal and taking some pics there. I wound up hanging out around the portal for a good hour or so, I even went to the grocery store and walked back down there, which meant I got to see 9087 pull onto the siding on the western side of the portal area for some sort of mechanical problem.
Here are some pics from that excursion:
http://photos.transitgallery.com/SubwaySurfaceKcars/adg?full=1
http://photos.transitgallery.com/SubwaySurfaceKcars/acz?full=1
http://photos.transitgallery.com/SubwaySurfaceKcars/ade?full=1
http://photos.transitgallery.com/SubwaySurfaceKcars/adb?full=1
Here's one from last night at the portal:
http://photos.transitgallery.com/SubwaySurfaceKcars/acy?full=1
I also saw a Philadelphia Streets Division plow train on Baltimore consisting of two garbage trucks with plows fitted. I was under the understanding that SEPTA was responsible for maitenance on the streets that had trolley tracks on them. Does this include snow removal? It's pretty clear from the pic that they weren't moving much snow, but there are some kinks and joints in the rail, what if they hit one of those and put the 34 out of commission? Who would shell out for the repairs? Who would do the work? What exactly is the rule on this? Cause I saw a SEPTA sweeper (sadly mounted on a Freighliner FL90, not rail mounted) go down the same street after doing a cursory sweep of 40th St portal last night.
Anyway, here's the pic:
http://photos.transitgallery.com/OtherPhilly/aac?full=1
I was unaware of it, but while I was out, the Army-Navy game started at the Linc. Of course this brought representative military aircraft from the services for the obligatory fly-by. The Army had helicopters, two UH-60 Blackhawks and two CH-47 Chinook helicopters in a line ahead formation by the time they passed over West Philadelphia. I saw the Navy's representatives, 4 F/A-18C Hornet fighers much more often, hearing them while taking that first picture at 43rd and Baltimore, later seeing and photographing two of them at 42nd and Baltimore, and finally seeing and again photographing (this time very poorly) all four of them in a diamond formation from Woodland at the southern tip of 40th St portal. On the second pic, please excuse the quality, the only warning I had was a slight dull roar that I dismissed as a trolley coming out of the portal, I turned around when it changed pitch and saw a Northwest A320 type at what looked like 3000ft in a 30 degree bank to the northeast and then four grey shapes come across at some 500 feet or so, heading directly for the sports complex. I also got no usable pictures of the helicopters from Army, they came by like 5 minutes later, and passed lower than the F/A-18s just north of Woodland Cemetary, so I was unable to take a picture of them through the thick trees.
Here's those two pics of the F/A-18s:
42nd and Baltmore, with a Subway Surface trolley overhead support:
http://photos.transitgallery.com/OtherPhilly/aab?full=1
Here the four of them are later at 40th St portal, looking northeast along Woodland, they look like a bird framed by the trolley catenary wires right next to the trees, I swear there were four of them.
http://photos.transitgallery.com/OtherPhilly/aad
I thought the rule on trolleys maintaining streets was an old school thought and they don't operate like that anymore, but I could be wrong. I would assume the plow isn't flush against the ground, but then i'm wrong again. I think if it's a snow emergency route, they'd probably plow it no matter what, or other through routes. I don't think, however, that these highly paid(no joke) plow drivers who are probably making double-time are fully aware of what to do with the tracks. If something breaks, I imagine it will be like every other city department in the city. No one will take responsibility and a lengthy battle will ensue with service suspensions/problems/lawsuits.
What If The AM (M) train ran EXPRESS to Bay Ridge, and then Local back to Manhattan. That would make more trains available to carry passengers into the city with the quickest turnaround possible for the (M) train.
What would you suggest for the PM rush? Local to Bay Parkway and then Express back to Manhattan? I would opt for EXPRESS to Brooklyn in the PM as well.
Let us look at the intuitive reasons for a counter-intuitive express:
In the Morning:
1. Four or Five trains can come into service at Bay Parkway directly from the CI Yard, without using up platform time at Coney Island.
2. From a passengers persepective: a rider on the West Avenue Line will get on the first train to arrive at a platform (because it is cold and snowy out).
2A. If they catch a (D) train they have access to 6th Avenue directly; 8th Ave w/ a transfer at W4; Broadway w/ a transfer at Pacific; or Downtown w/ a transfer to the (RR) at Pacific. If they want the East Side they are SOL.
2B. if they catch an (M) train they will have access to Nassau Street directly, and with easy connections to the East Side line; if they want 6th Ave, they can change for the (B) at DeKalb; if they want Broadway, they can change for a (Q) at DeKalb; and if they want the 8th Avenue Line, they can change for the (A) or (CC) train at Fulton-Nassau.
In the Evenings:
Evenings are Different. In the morning, you go to your home line and you take the first train to arrive. In the Evening, all of the Manhattan lines are in close proximity to each other, so you must first decide what train you want to catch, and then you have to go to the subway station or line that that train is running on.
So, if you are in the City Hall - Wall Street area, and want to return to a station in south Brooklyn, you can walk to Broadway and get a local (RR) train (which is already filled up) or you can walk to Nassau Street and get an almost empty (M) express train. That it is empty and that it is express will draw more people to Nassau Street, reliving Broadway of some of its crowding.
You can then change at DeKalb for the (Q) or (B) train; you could change at 36th for the (RR) or western (N) stations; you could change at 9th Avenue for northern West End Stations; or you could change at 62nd Street for southern West End stations or eastern Sea Beach stations.
And the last four or five (M) trains will return directly to the Yards without taking up platform space at Coney Island.
Elias
David
If they want the East Side, they can transfer at Pacific for the (4) or <5>.
1. We no longer reffer to it as the RR. It is now the R.
2. If they want the east side they can transfer at Pacific street.
Where's the PROFF!? I'll let you make all of the other letters into singles, but *I'll* keep the (RR) and the (GG).
: )= Elias
David
But it still goes to Astoria, right? :)
(Its getting deep in here.)
Elias
Thanks, in advance.
Where there plans to add a second 6th Av-Chrystle St service after or at the same time the old "KK" service started.
As for the present tense, I still think the V should be 8 car R32's and extended to Fresh Pond (and reduce the M to an off-hour shuttle) if it is not to go to Church Av. It also eliminates deadheading between Fresh Pond and ENY for maintenance. Nassau Street no longer needs all that peak service. Send the J to the West End line in lieu of the M, and all the R42's would see CI when needed for heavy maintenance without deadheading as well.
The "MM" was a regular green, same as "CC", "GG", "RR", "SS" &c.
wayn
wayne
The "GG" on the other hand, was light green only on the maps. Even then it was only the route line that was light green. When you look at the route description section of the '70s maps, the "GG" was in a dark green circle. All other mediums, it was dark green.
By the way, any MOD trips for you this month?
Perhaps. I also remember the R16/R38 rollsigns having the lighter shaded green CC, similiar to this R42 CC:
By the way, any MOD trips for you this month?
All of them, as long as the redbird trips don't sell out. I sent in my check/application for the 27th/28th 19 days ago, but they have yet to arrive in the mail.
wayne
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
David
I would venture to guess that the West Shore Line will be reactivated if there is enough pressure for it from Rockland and Orange counties. That seems more likely if the state goes with a Tappan Zee option without a commuter rail connection, though the two are not mutually exclusive.
As for when, I wouldn't hold my breath. We aren't exectly swimming in capital funds and a lot of promises have been made.
R-32.
Does this mean there is still some corporate denedent of the Penn Central in existance today?
If NY State goes with the other option which is to replace the bridge with a tunnel, then they will probably persue passenger rail service from West Havestraw to either Hoboken or directly into NY Penn via new Hudson river rail tunnels currently being planned (ARC).
Service runs daily 6am to midnight, every 90 seconds during peak hours and every three minutes off-peak. The fare to transfer to Metrorail is $1. Fares can be paid in tokens, coins, or dollar bills, exact change only.
So I'd think it would be equal or less during the day. There used to be a great site on the whole thing, www.trafficrelief.com but it's now a county government style site about the PTP and I am having a real hard time locating any of the ballot promises anymore.
Hopefully that's a start.
"Service Hours: The inner loop operates 24 hours a day, seven days a week. The outer loop operates weekdays and weekends 5:30 a.m. to midnight. Trains arrive every 90 seconds during rush hours, every three minutes during off-peak hours"
So, a minute and a half to every 3 minutes. Of course it doesn't mean you couldn't only have a wait time of 5 seconds if you have good timing.
From : http://www.co.miami-dade.fl.us/transit/welcome/facts.htm
VC Madman
Ultimate fan of Miami Dade Transit
A car ferry, like the ones from Port Jefferson to Connecticut. It would offer those drivers willing to pay for it ($20? $25?) a quick trip across even at the height of rush hour. With a car ferry there'd obviously have to be some type of staging area for the cars on both sides. So it would take some careful planning. I'd suggest the car ferry depart from where Atlantic Avenue ends. Seems to be room for parking around there.
And a passenger only ferry. It could leave from the Fulton Street landing. I'd love to see a ferry landing at the end of Joralamon Street but that would get the Brooklyn Heighters annoyed. Yet the Joralamon Street location is closer to the residential areas of Brooklyn Heights. Probably doesn't matter that much as wherever it was, a loop shuttle bus starting from LIRR Flatbush Terminal and ending at the ferry would be a requirement. And of course, Mr. Diamonds' tolleys would have been great for this...
If only to lay the foundation for any future rail tunnel.
Fulton Ferry landing is plenty close to residential areas like DUMBO and Concord Village(my old neighborhood). Also, Bob's trolleys will be serving that area eventually(atleast we hope). Passenger only
Red Hook. Another location served by Bob's trolleys, it is also residential(right?). Also, is there enough space for a car ferry? If so, then car ferry it is.
Bay Ridge. Great location. Near lots of appartment buildings and such. Used to be served by ferries from Pier 11 I believe. Also, in the long term(very long term), possibly passenger rail service on the old Bay Ridge line would connect to the ferry. I'm pretty sure there is space for a car ferry, so that would be a car ferry terminal.
Jersey City. Where about? I'm thinking the Newark Bay side. I have lots of ideas for this, but I don't want to put them up here unless you say you want me to. There are so many, mostly cuz I'm always planning really big.
For the first (and most difficult) problem, the only solution is what seems to be occuring anyway, i.e., siting of new developments at waterside. Or re-development of existing waterfront sites. In Jersey City, it's interesting that the current ferries have one landing at the exact spot where the old Pennsylvania Railroad had it's big North River Terminal. So by taking a ferry over to Lower Manhattan from there you're able to take the same trip people have been taking for centuries. Not many mass transit journeys can equal that history!
For the second objection it seems relatively simple enough to built indoor ferry terminals. Where the boat is inside the building before it stops.
Also, the idea of an indoors ferry terminal, sounds pretty neat.
Well, I found two maps. First one is dated from before the Hudson Tubes were built. Nice `cause it shows the other railroad ferry routes.
This other one is from the Rand McNalley online site. You can see the shape of the piers there were meant for ferries. The terminal was right about where the "Jersey City" is marked. Montgomery Street.
Now now. This is the internet, man. And that old map is chock fulla relavent data. So now you know bro.
http://www.hudsoncity.net
http://www.hudsoncity.net
English version
Did you photoshoped that photo?
Can't fool anyone with Arial, Windows's crappy version of Helvetica. :-)
When in doubt, ask a Mac!
I used to have the real version before but then my comp had post-blackout issues and I lost that file.
Plus, the subway can't go to the North Pole, only streetcars.
Santa says so.
Junction Blvd has a very small, but noticably more space on the right after "Blvd." Many station signs in NYC Subway are aligned left, not centered.
wayne
wayne
Regards,
Jimmy
Bud Light's "Real Men of Genius" commercials rule over all.
R-32.
Exterior:
The "A" units are 54' long. The "B" units are 51' long ("B" units are not slant-nosed). At the #1 end, the extra 3' is the cab area/fiberglass end cap. The front end is a slant nose version of the R142/R142A. The sides of the end cap are black fiberglass, and so is the top of the end cap.
The area around the headlights/taillights area is crimson red fiberglass. The headlight and taillight configuration returns to the way it was on the older IRT cars: headlights on top and taillights under them.
The protruding vertical bars surrounding the storm door (not extension bars) are also black. The storm door is black on the top half and crimson red on the lower half (Of course it's got a railfan window!).
Above the storm door is a EXPRESS/LOCAL/SHUTTLE sign, one of the words are lit depending on the type of train it is. The EXPRESS sign is in red, the LOCAL sign in green, and the SHUTTLE sign in yellow. On the left, obviously, is the T/O's window.
On the right is a color-coded route sign, yes, the roller sign may return. It also takes up the whole field like the pre-GOH R40's, R40M's, and R42's. Just below the route sign is an LCD destination sign which shows which direction the train is going (the back of the train would show the opposite destination).
The T/O's cab is a full-width cab. The "B" units have no cabs and the "A" units have two half-width cabs for the C/R at the #2 end at either side of the storm doors. The C/R walks from cab to cab depending on which side the next stop is to open/shut the doors.
The rest of the car body is stainless steel. These cars still get the roof-mounted H.V.A/C. system. Not only is it easier to check and repair, it also makes the roof look high-tech.
There's also the red-to-silver "dissolving" belt line which is now supposed to be on ALL cars ("A" units and "B" units) at the front sets of side doors (both sides). The MTA logo is under the front end area number plate. The side doors are black on top and red on the lower half. They're made of fiberglass.
The side destination signs have one space for the route letter/number and 20 smaller spaces to fit the route name. What I don't know is why the R142/R142A signs have 20 spaces and they still have the sign reading "LEXINGTON AV EXP" instead of "LEXINGTON AV EXPRESS".
Anyway, the TEXT is in LCD format. The route letter/number is in LED format like the R142's. Picture windows with vents at the top are used. Under the picture windows are the speakers. The blind ends have safety glass.
Interior:
The interior is supposed to be virtually identical to that of the R142A.
New things:
-When a train crashes, airbags are activated in the T/O's and C/R's cabs. A large red accident light and warning bells are activated in the passenger area of the interior and safety plates in the door insets are also activated. Oh, by the way, this whole procedure actually occurs when one train is within a foot of the other train thanks to headlights and taillights that have sensors to sense another car if it's too close.
-These cars will be linked (semi-permanent) in 10-car sets.
When they'll probably start being manufactured/delivered: 2009-2013
Projected manufacturer: Kawasaki
Projected lines (they may run on other lines): (1), (9), (3), (4), (S) 42 Street Shuttle.
-I hope they get AC traction motors. That whine is so ADDICTIVE! :)
wayne
I'd rather the greyish interior or the R143s. Looks better IMO.
Above the storm door is a EXPRESS/LOCAL/SHUTTLE sign, one of the words are lit depending on the type of train it is. The EXPRESS sign is in red, the LOCAL sign in green, and the SHUTTLE sign in yellow
What about Skip-Stop, Special, Not In Service, and Super-Express?
I joined the talks in early September, like a few weeks into the school year. I apologize to the community for not introducing myself. I came in quite abruptly. Sorry. :-(
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Elias
What's interesting to me was why the station was named Gold Street in the first place. Was there ever a time when it was a more important street than Myrtle Avenue?
Maybe they didn't name it Myrtle Avenue initially because they didn't want people to think you could transfer to the L there (you couldn't) but changed their minds because people would have a better idea where Myrtle Avenue was than Gold Street.
Just a wild guess.
Possibly. Also, there is no exit to Fulton st; the main booth entrance is on DeKalb, with exit-onlies north of there.
The ambiguity is probably also the reason why Nevins Street (IRT) is called Nevins instead of Fulton. Fulton is a much more important street than Nevins, but the IRT subway runs under Fulton west of Flatbush.
DeKalb is an important street, but it ends a block away from the station. It's not as important as Fulton or Myrtle.
The Myrtle Avenue Line has a NAVY station and the last stop (in '64) was Bridge-Jay. That would mean the Brooklyn Bridge.
The Navy (Street?) (is now seems to be called Navy Walk) seems a bit too far East to serve either Gold Street or Flatbush, and Jay Street a little too far west.
One might wonder why the Myrtle Avenue Line did not stop at Flatbush Avenue, until one relizes that it is NOT Flatbush Avenue, but rather Flatbush Avenue Extension at that point, and that IT WASN'T THERE when the Myrtle Avenue Line was built! The Manhatan Bridge WASN'T THERE when the Myrtle Avenue Line was built.
Elias
Another such example of this is Seventh Avenue South in Manhattan. This stretch of avenue was created specifically for the construction of the Seventh Avenue Subway. It connected the southern end of Seventh Avenue with the northern end of Varick Street. You can, to this day, still see the scars on the sides of some of the buildings along Seventh Avenue South, where chunks of wall were removed, and bricks were replaced, at the spots where the new avenue sliced through the Greenwich Village neighborhood.
And 6th Ave north of there was widened. In the vicinity of West 4th, you will notice that there are no old buildings on the east side of the street, and there is a profusion of pocket parks and buildings with their sides facing the Avenue. All remnants of the widening.
No, it would mean Bridge St.
Elias
Elias
I seem to remember the consensus was 15 mph leaving the station, because otherwise the signals can't guarantee it won't crash into the train ahead.
In any case, last week 2 #7 trains in a row came through Vernon Jackson Manhattan-bound without stopping. The first seemed to be moving really fast. I timed it - 15 seconds to pass me. 561' in 15 seconds works out to 25.5 mph!
And it seemed to be going a pretty steady speed too.
During the summer, I posted about a 7 local train I was on that ran express on the local from Woodside to Junction. By the time we were at 82 St, we were probably doing close to 40 MPH, and the T/O did not sound the horn to warn that the train wasn't going to stop.
You are witnessing trains being operated by idiots, who will only compain if they are taken out of service.
But the point here seems to be that some signals can tolerate higher speeds. Maybe some T/Os know which ones these are.
So does the MTA. I betcha they got radar guns same as the FRA, and *could* sit at th wayside and see what they might see.
Elias
As far as I am aware, the signals on the Flushing Line have not been upgraded to handle 35 MPH speeds through stations. The only station on the line I know of where trains were SCHEDULED to pass through without stopping was Woodside (express track). At least twice in history, expresses (at one point called "superexpresses") were scheduled to bypass Woodside. The last time was in the late 1980s, after the line was rehabilitated (the rehab that was done poorly and had to be corrected recently), and it ended because of public outcry.
David
No bets on a sure thing. They do, and violators get written up, pissing and moaning all the way. I've been 'gunned' so many times in four years, and they are still trying to catch me.
If another T/O wishes to go against the rules, then so be it. I just hope that he/she is in front of me so I can move up one in seniority when he/she is busted back.
If another T/O wishes to go against the rules, then so be it. I just hope that he/she is in front of me so I can move up one in seniority when he/she is busted back.
Absolutely correct, I calculated the average speed of the train. But I also perceived that the train neither accelerated nor decelerated singificantly on its way through. To be going 15 mph when passing the leaving signal and 25.5 mph on average, it would have had to compensate by getting up to approx 35 mph either before or after or both. It certainly didn't do that.
They'll have to wait a while. I've been the (more or less) patient watcher of many trains that skip Vernon Jackson, and this is the only one that was clearly going over 15 mph. That's why it surprised me.
or http://www.chron.com and link to Election Central, which has a Houston Rail page.
It seems that the rail proposition for 22 more miles (at $29,000,000 a mile) won 52%-48%. Great! I'm puzzled that that vote seems to have taken place December 4th, while the Mayoral run-off was December 6th.
The Chronicle and KHOU reported that the mayoral runoff vote and the vote for the LRT were both on November 4th.
//rolls eyes
As for children under 18, I would rather they keep away from this forum myself.
A couple cold, windy minutes later, train 4611 came along going the other way.
If anybody didn't see my snow photos from Saturday and would like to, they are linked here.
And he wants to participate like the rest of us.
At least he's not anything like CDTA.
yes, thank G-d
You have the CDTA syndrome too, I see..
:x
"anyone know what lines redbirds ran on"
Smith Barney did wonders for Franklin on the 1 line.
David
As an L train user (with other options as well), I'm of 2 minds. After the holidays would be better. But maybe it would delay CBTC completion by 4 weeks. That would be bad.
There will dozens of different G.O.s that will take place before CBTC is completed.
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
He's a nice guy too.
Chuck Greene
While I fight a swelled head, I thank you all for the kind words.
--Mark
All you have to do is ask.
--Mark
I also see some people have left some positive feedback (thank you!); you can see feedback others left when a question similar to yours was posted in September of 2001.
If you have any specific questions about any of the videos, please e-mail me.
--Mark
Does anyone think that walking from Grand Central to Penn Station during rush hour with one bag would be worth it?
Depends on the size of the bag, though. A heavy bag would be a drag walking and a large bag would be a problem on the subway during rush hour.
Does anyone think that walking from Grand Central to Penn Station during rush hour with one bag would be worth it?
Worth two bucks? Your call. The subways are going to be packed during rush, though.
You could wait 20 years for East Side Access to finish :)
Just a guess.
1. It wouldn't do any good to complain because there is nothing I can do about it
2. It would give my friends on the Brighton a case of apoplexy that I am actually saying something nice about the Brighton, which, after all, is my second favorite line---even if no one else believes it.
Yes, until June 1, 1940, the Fulton Street el, subway and trolley all ran at the same time as far east as Rockaway Avenue.
Are there any other places in New York where an el, street-level trolleys, and a subway all ran at the same time on the same street?
6th Ave, right?
6th/9th Ave. Els (until June 1, 1940).
8th Ave. trolley (became bus, today's M10, in 1936).
IND subway underneath (opened Sept. 1, 1932 and of course still running).
Elias
Meanwhile, down below the M-D line, we got the white stuff too.
At the Baltimore Streetcar Museum, it's time for Santa's Tinsel Trolley , when the Jolly Ol' Elf takes over the Elmer Packie Shop and rides the cars, with gifts for the little ones began. The event runs for two weekends in December, this year the dates are December 6, 7, 13 & 14.
Before the event started on Saturday, we got to do the "dig out the railroad" act again. With Ed Amrhein and Big Jim, our ever-useful front end loader, the line was cleared in short work and streetcar operations commenced - with a twist. The City Yard, still dispatching salt trucks, manged to block the line north of 26th Street, so the cars used would be 1050 (Brownell 1898) and 264 (Brownell 1900) would be used, since access to our 28th Street loop was blocked. PCC 7407 and Witt 6119 spent the day in the carhouse.
Despite the media's constant crying of "Stay home, there's White Death falling from the sky!!!" we had 16 hardy parents and kids riding with Santa.
Sunday the line was opened all the way to 28th Street, so the PCC and Witt were the cars for Sunday. Lots more people came on Sunday and went home happy. One lucky visitor happened to be celebrating her bithday, so Santa was apprised of that fact and made her very happy - Santa knows everything!!
Amazingly, when we opened the line on Sunday, not one switch was frozen, despite the 15 degree overnight temps. We must be living right.
We'll do it again (Tinsel) next weekend.
On the local transit front, the bus system didn't blow away, but actually kept buses on the streets, snow or not. The light rail just laughed at the 14 inch total.
Off Topic part of post: The local football team demolished their rival for first in the AFC Central 31-13. Our local indoor soccer team, the Baltimore Blast, beat our principal rival for the MISL championship, the Milwaukee Wave 9 to 8 in a thrilling overtime win with .6 seconds left in the overtime period.
Life is good in Charm City.
New York Avenue 22 images.
G Route Blue line extension, 73 images, most are in the stations tunnels or on the elevated at Morgan Boulevard (G04) and Largo Town Center (G05).
John
(Speaking of which, the whole photo set, taken in April 2002 is here, and it mostly covers the CAFs compared to the Rohrs and Bredas, but anyway...)
Thanks,
mark
DING,DING,DING,DING,DING !!
You win !!
During the 30 or so minutes I was around the station shooting pictures there were about three trains in quick succession that were wrong rialing northbound. The same train is shown in the series of images shot from New York Avenue.
If you look at the first image in the series you will see one the trains crossing over at the M Street crossover.
John
The picture was taken from the bank on the left side of the right of way just beyond the third utility poll looking to the southwest.
John
wayne
I'm currently working 5 days on the Brighton local, but next pick will be working 5 days on the N over the Bridge.
Let's hear it for the bridge! Hip hip hooray! Hip hip hooray! Hip hip hooray!
Does that mean the R-68A's won't be on the N? Where will they be, the B?
As for where the 68As will be, we still don't have a clue.
I have a hunch the 68A's won't show up on the 6 or on the M. As for the N, your guess is as good as mine.
Incidentally, the Q local I didn't ride yesterday morning and the two Q locals I rode yesterday evening were all 68A sets. Where have all the 68's gone?
See post 613141.
I like this one a lot:
Sounds like a good subject for a letter to the PA. And NY Waterways.
I do remember when I noticed the voice for the first time, though, and made a mental note that it was new to me.
So am I out of my mind, or is there something to it?
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Ben F. Schumin :-)
wayne
Have you been on the CAFs yet? I know you went a long period without coming to DC.
The old Rohr door chime is the same as the new one, the NYCT "R44" sound. Only the Breda 2's and 3's changed. I believe the Breda 4000's came with R44 chimes and voice announcements.
wayne
I was in Rosslyn back in August 1999 after Metro had cleared a delay on Blue/Orange somewhere in DC, and the first train (Orange to Vienna) to come through was packed to the gills with people. "Doors closing!" went once, the "stand clear" sound went twice, then the T/O came on: "Would you please stand clear of the doors!" Then "Doors closing!" and they were off.
Also, if anyone is interested, I have a recording of the "Stand clear" sound.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Shortly after WMATA opened back in 03 27 1976 WMATA spent most of their time working out bugs with the Rohr cars and the automated station announce system was a low priority. As I recall testing of the system was a significant failure. Needless to say the system was never used and the tape player were removed from the cars a number of years after all of the Rohr cars were delivered.
John
"This is a Red line train to Rhode Island Avenue. The next stop is Metro Center."
"This is a Red line train to Rhode Island Avenue. The next stop is Metro Center."
Some thing like that. As I recall WMATA planed to use well known local radio and or television announcers to do the station announcements.
John
I havent heard the recordings on the R142's so I cant say.
Arch Camble from WRC TV, Gordon Peterson from WDMV TV and some of the other Announcers from the 1970s.
John
There are eight samples of some voices.
I've also posted a sample of a train coming in to a station, which can be found on this thread, with the file, "entering 14th street.zip."
I've also posted a sample of a train coming in to a station, which can be found on this thread, with the file, "entering 14th street.zip."
The computer I am on doesnt have a sound card. I will have to fire up my ALR Quad 4 server to listen to them.
John
The book is #C-163
I bought the book, it was $34.16.
BTW, is there anyplace within the city where I can buy this book?
Can I find one in a Queens library?
Is a study book necessary to do well on the C/R exam?
The numbers from the T/O test were very discouraging. I am assuming for the C/R test that you have to be best of the best to give yourself a chance at the job.
To get in you'd probably have to score a 100.
I now have almost 2 months to study and prepare for this test.
I was looking in the book, and could answer most of the "common sense" questions right off the bat. With work, I'll know more of the technical questions.
There is some simple math as well, including reading schedules and intervals.
thanks,
tim
Parts of the station had papers all over the platform and tracks.
My Bin Runneth Over
Members of the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers in the United States and Canada have voted overwhelmingly to merge with the International Brotherhood of Teamsters, bringing rail employees into the Teamsters for the first time, BLE officials announced Dec. 5.
The merger was approved by U.S. members on a vote of 81 percent to 19
percent, with 47 percent of eligible members casting ballots, the unionsaid. Canadian members voted by 62.4 percent to 37.6 percent, with 56 percent of eligible members voting.
The merger of the 35,000-member locomotive engineers and the 1.4-million member Teamsters will take effect Jan. 1. The engineers will be known as the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers and Trainmen, a division within a new International Brotherhood of Teamsters Rail Conference. In Canada, a Teamsters Rail Conference will also be established, the unions said.
"The membership has spoken and we are pleased with their decision to merge with the Teamsters," BLE International President Don Hahs said in announcing the vote. "Our members will soon see the benefits of belonging to the largest, most powerful, and politically influential transportation union in North America."
According to BLE, the structure of its union will remain largely intact, as locomotive engineers will continue to elect their own officers and hold conventions. Hahs said existing Teamsters locals and joint councils have a degree of autonomy, and BLE also will remain autonomous.
The vote ends an effort that was begun nearly two years ago by BLE
leadership to join the Teamsters. In February 2002, the BLE Advisory Board, which is made up of the union's top officers agreed to begin merger talks. In July 2003, the advisory board approved the merger plan and put the plan to a vote of the membership (133 DLR A-11, 7/11/03). Ballots were mailed on Oct. 20.
Hahs said the addition of the name "Trainmen" to the BLE name is significant in that it opens the door for trainmen--nonengineer employees on rail operating crews, such as conductors--to join the union. A BLE spokeswoman said the union hopes to attract trainmen who are now organized under the United Transportation Union. "The doors are now open and the structure in place," Hahs said. "Throughout
our negotiations, it was our intent and the Teamsters' intent to allow the new organization to represent trainmen under the umbrella of the IBT Rail Conference."
According to BLE, the engineers and the Teamsters have worked together in the past to organize shortline railroads. The two unions have worked jointly as the IBT-BLE Rail Operating Employees' Council, and since July 2002 have organized seven U.S. shortline railways, adding 700 new members to BLE, according to union officials.
Teamsters President James Hoffa said the merger means that "two great unions begin a partnership to strengthen our ability to represent workers across the transportation spectrum. The Teamsters have always had a vision for a seamless transportation union giving workers real power on the job and in the political arena. This historic merger brings us closer to our union's vision." <<...OLE_Obj...>>
BLE as a standalone DESERVED to die - let's hope the Teamstas put the former BLE leadership on a slow bus to Kearney. These idiots bargained away remote control, have consistently failed to defend their own, and have sold out at every turn. No WONDER the membership said, "HELL YEAH!" when it was time to vote. Coulda been worse. BofLE could have gone to TWU. (snicker) I think the membership will be MUCH happier with a REAL union. And if there's a strike, can't wait to see "bouncy bouncy overturn" with a dash9. :)
A google search turned up this article from Feb, 2002 on the BMWE website:
http://www.bmwe.org/nw/2002/02FEB/68.htm
With this quote from the teamsters president James Hoffa, '"It is my understanding that UTU severed its ties with the AFL-CIO for the sole purpose of raiding the BLE,"'. Does this mean that the Teamsters and the UTU were both attempting to merge with the BLE?
So I jumped onto the R train on the other side...which is the same one I saw when I left 71st Ave! (Yes I recognzied the R32 R and the lady C/R voice). Then I figured to change the 4 train at Lex Ave...what I didn't realize is that the 4 train had the worst crowd nightmare on the train...
Luckily I was still able to make from 71st Ave to Boro Hall in 1 hr :-)
Looks like the TA is making great effort on my $2
Wouldn't this be to your benefit?
If I'm still in HS I would love today's little RFing!
I'm aware of that. G (or F, in this case) to Hoyt-Schermerhorn, A/C one stop to Jay St, and avoid the "nightmare" in Manhattan.
G from Queens Plaza to Hoyt-Schemerhorn: 25 minutes.
Why are you spending $2 a ride? That doesn't seem very sensible to me.
It's an "expression"
I pay $70 a month.
LOL
;-)
VC Madman
Not that I'm saying this would be a preferable or even logical course of action.
First of all, if the fare was $100, the service (or lack thereof) would be the same. Whether the dealy is caused by a "sick passenger" or a mechanical problem, the result will be the same.
And you might say: "If the fare was higher, wouldn't the mechanical problems be less frequent?". Possibly, but you're still dealing with human beings, and human beings have flaws and weaknesses (like the higher-ups pocketing money meant for the purchasing of mechanical parts, or the possible laziness on the part of the mechanics). Here at NJ Transit, where most commuters pay premium fares ($200+ per month), sometimes it takes a week for a simple light bulb to be changed. And that is because the regular "light bulb guy" is out sick, and nobody else knows how to or is allowed to change a light bulb.
Koi
I count on you for feedback. We just put up our Subway Map
(Manhattan or Brooklyn Maps, so far) for Adults, Juniors and Kids.
We also put out these cool Map bags and wallets - you can see the gym
bag advertised "Gym Dandy" on lots of buses and subways right now.
I want to hear what you think? Do you like them?
Subway Grrl
http://nycsubwayline.com
I'm not sure why they aren't carrying them! Some of the employees don't like that style. You may have to order on-line.
Sorry I don't have a store for you!
Subway grrl
It will be a "snapshot" of this moment in time in August, when I used the most up-to-date map.
Subway grrl
I had been trying to get a company to print the Subway Map fabric for accessories for five years. Not many places are willing to produce for small companies like mine. I am so pleased with the way they came out!
Subway grrl
It used to be a lot, lot more, much later than New York. Since WWII they eliminated the grade crossings on Lake and on what is now the Congress Line, and several lines extended further than now with grade crossings.
Nope. The Skokie Swift is still very much overhead-powered. Conversion to third rail is progressing at a slow pace; right now most of the work is putting in feeder cables and doing signal and crossing gate work, I believe.
Find more info, including recent updates of work on the Skokie Swift conversion, at: www.chicago-l.org
Frank Hicks
I also got to visit the California State Railroad Museum. I was very impressed, but I didn't have a lot of time there. But one thing I have to mention is that I took Amtrak from Sacramento to Reno, Nevada. In addition to being a great ride with great views of the Sierra Nevadas and the American River, an interpretter from the California State Railroad Museum narrated the trip, giving anecdotes and information about the route we were travelling. I highly recommend this ride.
Mark
Mark
Just some random ideas...
Mark
What follows next irked me. The customer is shown standing apprehensively in the car next to the Circuit City employee. The customer is holding a boxed piece of electronic equipment in his arms, possibly a CD player or stereo. The car then darkens for a few seconds (a la the Redbird days when the trains passed over third rail gaps). When the lights come back on, the box is gone and the Circuit City employee's shirt is missing too.
The two then flash back to the store and the two are back in their original positions, the CC employee with his shirt back on. He reassures the customer that delivery of purchases is available.
The commercial is meant to be humerous, but as a subway rider and a NYC native, I found it offensive. To get yuks, Circuit City is obviously playing to the old '70's stereotype of the subway using old, outdated cars and being a haven for thieves and pickpockets. The subway has improved drastically since the '80s, both in terms of safety and equipment, and deserves better play in the entertainment world. I guess the old, crime-ridden New York is funnier than the new, safer New York.
Mark
Hell, it took me about two years to figure out that some cars on the A were longer than others.
I meant the difference between a 32/38 and a 44... stainless is stainless, but the other end of the car seems further away for some reason.
I always knew what a REDBIRD was, though :)
Heh, it's funny - to me these WERE The Redbirds. The IRT ones were "skinny" versions of these. It was only when the R30's were gone that I "got used" to the Redbirds we all know and love.
Regards,
Jimmy
I saw that commercial and I pretty much found it insulting to NYC.
But then Madison Avenue loves to bite the hands that feed it.
Peace,
ANDEE
Yes, it does.
Peace,
ANDEE
Maybe it's 'cause the show's creator Jerry Seinfeld is a such a diehard car collector.
wayne
Anyway, a work colleague of mine came into my office and had the following query:
Apparently, at times during the fall, only the first coach of outbound trains platforms at Glen Ridge on the Montclair-Boonton Line, which is his stop. The reason given for this is that in Autumn, leaves on the tracks causes wheel-slippage on the slight incline between that and the next station, Bay St. The train won't make it to Bay St. unless the locomotive can get a running start, which it would not get if it stopped normally at Glen Ridge with all coaches platforming. His complaint, since his stop is Bay St., is that this causes a ten minute delay at Glen Ridge, since all passengers wanting Glen Ridge must exit through the first coach, so some must walk the length of the train. My colleague is wondering why the can't re-position the locomotive at the rear of the outbound consist to solve the problem. I'm fairly certain the Montclair-Boonton trains are locomotive-powered, as opposed to MU's, but I've never ridden the line. That's my friends contention. Anyway, why won't his solution solve the problem?
BTW, apologies if this has been discussed in another thread. I just came on the board and posted without reading anything else.
BTW, I got an MOD late December fantrip snail-mail from the transit museum. Anybody going?
2. Yeah, this was in the news back in the fall.
3. We're all going on the MOD trips. You also didn't miss two trips that were going to be this past Saturday and Sunday. They will now be two weeks from those dates.
One thing is, if it's a diesel, then it comes outa Hoboken and NJ Transit prefers to keep the units and their ear-shattering HEP equipment on the west end of consists and away from Hoboken Terminal's concourse. But up until the line extension a Montclair Branch train REGULARLY ran with the diesel on the east end. It used to platform on Tk 1 at Hoboken, which is about four or five car lengths away from the concourse, up by the main PATH entrance.
All others that I recall were on the west end except in the rarest of occasions.
CG
http://www.septa.org/riding/slippery.html
The one thing I could think placing a cab car on the back would do is place a carload of passengers in what is now space occupied by the locomotive, which might speed the unloading of passengers.
Also, I know I've passed through this station, but don't remember the layout. Is there a grade crossing or something similarly smooth and flat to the east side of the station platform? I remember at Fox River Grove station it was common practice for the extremely long rush hour outbound trains to discharge passengers onto the grade crossings both east and west of the station and gravel in between the end of the platform and the grade crossing to the east. Of course those were Gallery cars, designed for low level loading, so it really was just one long jump to the ground, rather than three steps and then one more big one.
Wayne
R-32.
For specifics, do a search on this subject as Lou From Brooklyn said.
No, the "C" stands for "Communication."
CBTC - Not to be confused with CTBC (Communication Train Based Control), which is an invention of SubTalk.
"Communication-Based Train Control (CBTC) systems employ modern computing systems, communications, and control technologies to overcome the limitations placed by fixed block train control technology that safeguard train operations but limits train throughput. These systems may pave the way for eventual introduction of total automation of train operations. CBTC benefits transit users in a number of ways. It allows for more trains to be run on the existing system; increases safety and flexibility in operations to facilitate fast recovery from unforeseen circumstances; faster trips; greater reliability; and better and more timely availability of information. CBTC systems reduce the need for major investments in infrastructure. The Bay Area Rapid Transit District (BART) is considering using CBTC as an alternative to investing $3 billion for a new Transbay Tube to accommodate future system expansion. Other advantages of CBTC include requiring fewer vehicles to meet the same demand for service and energy efficiency, smart grade-crossing protection, and the ability to coordinate with intelligent road systems."
Say for example with the current block signalling system in NYC...if the T/O of a brooklyn bound W train has a heart attack between QBP and Lex...right now the system is totally reactive...the conductor has to go check and see what the problem is and all the while command has no idea what is going on and can't really do anything...and then you have to hope that your radios are working and can communicate with someone.
CBTC is supposed to eliminate all of that b/c the command center will be able to see exactly where the train is, that it went BIE (say b/c of the dead man's handle) and start rerouting trains and making announcements and such.
At least this is my understanding of it...I'm sure there's a bunch of stuff that I'm leaving out.
Who would want such a boring job? It sounds worse than working at 209 Joralemon Street...
Define "way behind." To me, it looks almost complete.
There are lots of little things, which the MTA contractors always seem to be bad at wrapping up. The ends of the platform roofs are open, and need to be sealed, little things like that. I say way behind becuase this SHOULD have been done over a year ago.
wayne
I thought they were good about it on the Flushing line, where they put them primarily over stairways so it's harder to reach them. Still, I've seen a few of them scratched up. (On the other hand, the clear glass blocks that are along the rest of the platforms are virtually all scratched up by now.)
It looks like down to street level for now. Or did I completely miss something?
CG
No. I'm talking about the subway station, MTA property, not the Airtrain station, PA property.
--Z--
Peace,
ANDEE
I believe these pieces were inspired by Alexander Calder's work, was famous for his mobiles
If youve been through the International Arrivals Terminal at JFK , there use to be hanging there
below is a link to some pictures of his mobiles
http://www.sfmoma.org/espace/calder/calder_windmobiles.html
The train consists of three married-pair car sets festooned with lights and decorations, plus a flatcar with various decorations and lawn ornaments on it. The train travels around the CTA system at various times, and at least part of the time I believe it is in regular service. There's more info on the train here. The CTA has done this for twelve years; has anything of this sort ever been done on the NYC subway system?
Frank Hicks
Sure...some skell takes a piss between cars while the train is moving and it lights up the third rail....(BG)
But that is beautiful in how overboard they went in decorating that!
Building Steam
By TED JACKOVICS
tjackovics@tampatrib.com
TAMPA - Dennis and Sue Lott arrived at Union Station an hour early and eager to begin their first trip aboard Amtrak, a 13 1/2-hour overnight journey from Tampa to Rocky Mount, N.C.
The Plant City couple are no strangers to railroading. Dennis Lott began his career in freight train maintenance 34 years ago on the Seaboard Coast Line, two years before the federal government launched Amtrak service.
Only now have the Lotts gotten around to sampling long- distance train travel.
``We just wanted to do something that's different and decided to give it a try,'' Dennis Lott said.
The Lotts' longtime indifference toward train travel reflects what Amtrak is up against in trying to attract more passengers to the Palmetto, the only train that serves Tampa as it swings through central Florida on a New York-Miami run.
Warning: Link expires in 3 days, then it's a pay article. If you like it, save it.
----
On an off-note I saw this train for the first time Thursday literally blowing through downtown Orlando. I heard the horns going and thought it was one of the 54 freight trains that roll through daily, and was trying to walk over to one of the crossings to get a look, but just missed the train, only saw the last 2 cars roll by. No pic.
Also, on Amtraks rail-sale site, there's a train from Orlando to Los Angeles for $25 each way! It's a 3 days trip each way, what do you think, would you do it??
I assume $25 is for coach, but I'd still be very tempted!
Coach I don't care, whatever, I thought 32 bucks to houston was nice, but 25 to LA, man. 95% less than what it costs me to fly same time last year. Just be nice if it was HSR.
At Howard station you can take the Skokie Swift to Dempster. This is the remnant of the Chicago, North Shore and Milwaukee. You will pass the CTA shops.
Howard is a station on the Evanston Express and the Red Line has its terminal there. There is plenty to see at Howard.
Bundle up, Chicago is 'The Windy City.' Notice the OPTO operation on the CTA. It still has railfan windows.
Responding here to other posts in this thread, I was also intrigued by the junction of the Brown and Red lines. And of course Wrigley Field is a must.
Also, inspecting the pillars under the Addison (3600 N) station is interesting. It is a rebuilt station. It used to have center express tracks like the stations south of Belmont. Now it has side express tracks like stations to its north to eliminate a lot of switching. The 2 northbound tracks are on relatively new sctucture.
Take a careful look at Wilson. The southbound side express track goes off on its own with a seldom used wood platform. North Shore trains used to use it, and there was a physical connection there with the MILW Road. The other side is also the site of the burned/demolished/elevated Wilson Shops.
My personal favorites are the Skokie Express, Dan Ryan, Midway, and O'Hare lines.
1. Purple Line (Evanston Express), Loop to Linden. Unfortunately the express zone has shrunk to Belmont-Howard, bus still a nice ride.
2. Purple Line back to Howard Street.
3. Yellow Line (Skokie Swift) Howward to Skokie and back; the remnant of the North Shore, and the CTA's Skokie Shops are visible off to the north at about the middle of the line. If you get off as Skokie, check out the old North Shore station, recently relocated but still near the CTA station.
4. Red Line from Howard to Belmont.
5. Over the transfer bridge at Balmont, and Brown Line (Ravenswood) to Kimball and back.
Red Line, Belmont to some convenient point in the State Street subway.
Purple, Yellow, and Brown Lines all have some interesting surface running at their outer ends.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
Alan Follett
Paul
dave in Milwaukee (transplanted NY kid)
--Mark
I've walked by that parking garage at Lake and Wells and thought it would be a good spot. But it didn't look like I could just walk in with my camera, with that desk right by the elevators, so I didn't try. Maybe next time I drive to Chicago, I'll drive all the way in to the loop once, just so I can park there. Probably expensive, but it'll be worth it for the pictures.
The Yellow Line is definitely worth seeing because it gets up to a fairly good speed, and because it's the only line that still uses overhead instead of third rail on the outer section. The trains raise and lower their pantographs on the fly, which is interesting to watch from ground level. But to get to that location without a car, you'd have to take a bus and then walk a bit. The CTA is going to replace that overhead with third rail sometime soon, but I don't know exactly when.
The Green Line toward Oak Park passes some interesting areas.
The Orange LIne is of note, being the newest line with the smoothest ride.
This was Guliani's baby. NIMBY opposition, some of the strongest ever seen in transit, killed the project. The MTA still has money budgeted for the project, but it's been effectively killed.
Note: the NIMBYs weren't against the idea of the extension, but against the extension overground.
Makes perfect sense to me, and i'm actually on the side of the NIMBY's here. Who would want an elevated structure running through their neighborhood? In this day and age, these thing have to go underground.....you can't ruin the visual quality of a neighboorhood for the benefit of others if mitigation can take place(like buiilding the line underground).
-MM (who just wrote a paper on environmental visual quality impacts)
The NIMBYs were very clear ... either bury the entire elevated through Astoria, or there is no extension of the line.
Elias : )
avid
Oh wait a minute, that caused some people to be thrown off SubTalk once.
I just can't see the expense of weaving up and down into the Grand Central Parkway, trying to build around all that traffic, and hold back that water, for an old-technology subway line, for out-of-towners to go to Manhattan. Make 'em use Jamaica like the plan says. Bonus: you could make plane connections between airports.
What? 4 tracks at LGA. 2 for the astoria lines, and 2 for the 7
Another major one is that not everyone is coming from Penn Station. The N/W stops at many other points in Manhattan, including five transfer points from other lines. Penn Station is one point, with somewhat inconvenient connections to two subway lines.
The "geometric" advantage is with the straight shot -- ideally there would be a rail line going straight through Queens to LGA, but heavy transportation systems work better via hub-and-feeder, and Jamaica makes a good hub (and some flyers live out on the Island, not to mention potential new transfers to JFK). My point is that, if you want to pick up a few easily-confused tourists with luggage who don't want to pay for a cab, Jamaica is a more congenial route than making them brave a subway transfer, especially if there is backtracking. And Jamaica doesn't LOSE them any time, and there are other advantages to AirTrain. OTOH, there are lots of problems with Astoria extensions that aren't justified by giving free economic support to the air industry for a 2$ ride.
To the people who use LGA, and especially to the people who would consider riding mass transit to LGA, Times Square is by far a more important hub than Jamaica.
Is that actually true? I don't doubt it, but was just wondering where you got that from. People in the city are more likely to travel than LIers?
Those who do come from Nassau [Suffolk] County are unlikely to take transit, even if transit were an option, since almost everyone in Nassau County has a car
Yes, they do have a car, however, personally, I don't like leaving my car at the airport. I am sure I am not alone with this. So I then have to take a shuttle service, or someone has to drop me off at the airport.
I and a small fraction of Nassau County residents live in walking distance of a train station.
Yesa, LIers do have taxis to bring them to the station, or someone to bring them to the station. I much rather ask someone to take me to the station than to the airport itself.
No, LIers are more likely to use other airports. LGA is the closest airport to Manhattan; JFK is the closest airport to Nassau. If there's a choice between LGA and JFK, most Nassauites opt for JFK while most Manhattanites opt for LGA, for obvious reasons.
Yes, they do have a car, however, personally, I don't like leaving my car at the airport. I am sure I am not alone with this.
Of course you're not alone. But at least you have the option of taking the car. Most New Yorkers don't. And many people with cars have no problem leaving them at the airport.
So I then have to take a shuttle service, or someone has to drop me off at the airport.
Again, that's not an option for most New Yorkers.
Yesa, LIers do have taxis to bring them to the station, or someone to bring them to the station. I much rather ask someone to take me to the station than to the airport itself.
That's a hassle. It's not an outrageous hassle, but the more the hassles, the more people will choose other options, where other options exist. New Yorkers have less of a hassle and have fewer other options.
There's also the matter of culture. The average Long Island resident rides LIRR to get to and from Manhattan and drives everywhere else. The average NYC resident uses the transit system to get everywhere unreachable by foot. I doubt the average Long Island resident would even think of taking the train to the airport -- it's just not the sort of trip for which train travel comes to mind.
Again, I'm not totally disagreeing here, just that it surprises me. New Yorkers (well Manhattan, Bronx, and SI) have the choice of three airports - Newark, JFK, or LGA. (Newark is less of an option for Queens, and somewhat less to Brooklyn). LI only has two, LGA and JFK (Islip is a joke for all but a few destinations). Personally, I use air travel about 3 times a year (from Suffolk). I have lived out of New York City for about 8 years now, and I use LGA about 66% of the time, and JFK the other 33%. Is that an anomilty for LI residents, I don't know, but I find LGA to be a more user friendly airport, (except of course if I need an international flight).
So I then have to take a shuttle service, or someone has to drop me off at the airport.
Again, that's not an option for most New Yorkers.
Shuttle service is available to everyone, and I used that quite often when I did live in Brooklyn and Queens. As for being dropped off by someone, although not as easy as LI residents, Queens, SI, (and Brooklyn residents to a lesser extent) have not too much of a problem with that, so that leaves the Bronx and Manhattan, and there I agree.
[Yes but], LIers do have taxis to bring them to the station, or someone to bring them to the station. I much rather ask someone to take me to the station than to the airport itself.
That's a hassle. It's not an outrageous hassle, but the more the hassles, the more people will choose other options, where other options exist. New Yorkers have less of a hassle and have fewer other options.
Taxi service on LI is not a hassle, as long as you call. It's not quite as easy as jumping out your door and grabbing a cab, but only Mannhattan has that luxury anyway. On the way home, the majority of LIRR stations have taxis lined up waiting for people, and they connect with the trains (meaning they come in pacts when a train is expected). Again, you are using the current mode of transportation available to LIers as your guide as to how LIers get to the airports. I am sure I am not alone when I say I do not currently trust any sort of public transportation to the airports as they all involve "surface" routing. However, if a rail connection existed to LGA, I would not hesitate for a second to use it, as that is more reliable than surface. More reliable than a shuttle, as a shuttle service also needs the surface. The one and only time I used a shuttle service from LI was the one and only time I almost missed a plane. It is also more reliable than driving yourself, and more reliable than having someone drop you off, especially certain times of the day. A rail connection would actually be less of a hassle at certain times of the day, as people could allow much less time to get to the airport as they wouldn't have to leave extra time for considering traffic conditions. With rail transport, if it says it'll take an hour, within reason, that is what it will take. You must leave much more extra "what if" time when using any mode of surface transportation. That is why I disagree, and that LIers would certainly use this service.
With that, lets not talk about MacArthur on this thread anymore. Too much OT stuff happenin
Mac Arthur may be off topic to the thread, but a rail connection to it is not off topic to the board.
Delata Express flies regional jets to Atlanta and Cincinnati. American Eagle has RJ's to Boston and Continental Express has them to Cleveland. USAirways express has turboprops to Philadelphia and maybe one or two other places. But most of the flights out of ISP, and all of the mainline jet routes, are on Southwest.
It is super-convenient. I'll be flying out of there next Thursday on a quick trip to Florida on Southwest.
Every evening, when I get to Ronkonkoma station for the shuttle to Medford, I see at least 10 to 15 people with luggage waiting for the next train to Penn. They flew into ISP and got van shuttles to Ronkonkoma. While a direct rail link to the terminal would be terrific, as noted elsewhere, the existing shuttle system seems quite popular and works okay.
ISP probably would be even busier, but for competition from JetBlue at JFK.
1. An expansion of the subway to LaGuardia
2. The building of the Second Avenue Subway
3. The first manned flight to Mars
As for the other two, which of the two items that will be completed last? Now do I have to tell you the answer to THAT question?
How about at the point where Rockaway Blvd becomes Rockaway Tpk?
Honestly, you're the first LI (Nassau/Suffolk) resident I've seen express a preference for LGA over JFK. Most I've spoken to prefer JFK over LGA for the same reason I prefer LGA over, say, HPN: it's closer and it's easier to get to. I don't have any actual statistics; I'm basing this on common sense.
Shuttle service is available to everyone, and I used that quite often when I did live in Brooklyn and Queens.
I'm not sure what you mean by shuttle service.
As for being dropped off by someone, although not as easy as LI residents, Queens, SI, (and Brooklyn residents to a lesser extent) have not too much of a problem with that, so that leaves the Bronx and Manhattan, and there I agree.
IIRC, only about 10% of Nassau and Suffolk households have no access to an automobile. In Staten Island, it's 20%, in Queens, it's 34%, and in Brooklyn, it's 54%. Driving or being driven is an option for proportionately more LIers than for residents of any borough of NYC.
Taxi service on LI is not a hassle, as long as you call.
It's an additional step. Taxi from home to LIRR station, LIRR to Jamaica, AirTrain to LGA. The more steps, the more likely one is to opt for a different route.
With only a few exceptions, every subway station is either served directly by the N or is one transfer away from the N. Extending the N would give nearly every NYC resident who lives in walking distance of a subway station (which, I think, includes most NYC residents, and it certainly includes most carless NYC residents) single-transfer access, at worst, to LGA.
Again, you are using the current mode of transportation available to LIers as your guide as to how LIers get to the airports.
The current mode of transportation available to LIers will remain available, correct? My claim is that, for the vast majority, it will remain the choice of preference.
I am sure I am not alone when I say I do not currently trust any sort of public transportation to the airports as they all involve "surface" routing.
The same goes for public transportation to LGA from elsewhere in NYC. The only difference is that most NYC residents don't have any choice other than a (slow) bus or an (expensive) cab.
However, if a rail connection existed to LGA, I would not hesitate for a second to use it, as that is more reliable than surface.
Good for you. You have a much better understanding of transportation issues than the average person. Good luck convincing your friends to take the train.
That is why I disagree, and that LIers would certainly use this service.
Those "in the know" would use it. Those without cars or rides would use it. Both are extreme minority groups.
Let's see what happens with JFK AirTrain. How many LIers will actually use the convenient Jamaica connection? Not very many, I predict.
Really? Seriously, I really like using that airport better...always have. But then again, I guess old habits die hard. I'll have to take an informal poll of people I know. This is very curious.
I'm not sure what you mean by shuttle service.
Sorry. Shuttle service...An airport van. You call them, and they pick you up (and other people near you who also called to go to the same airport around the same time). It's been a while sincee I used one, so I can't give you a company name.
With only a few exceptions, every subway station is either served directly by the N or is one transfer away from the N. Extending the N would give nearly every NYC resident who lives in walking distance of a subway station
True, but it's still a time factor. An LIRR-Airtrain-LGA setup would probably get most LIRR riders to LGA faster than it would in the car at many times of the day. In fact it would get LIRR riders (especially Nassau) to the airport faster than many subway riders using some line to get to the N, and then taking the N all the way up to the Airport. Remember, it would be much more relianle than most surface methods, especially at peak driving times...they could leave less "what if" time. If the train says it will get you there at 6:00, in all likeliness you will be there at 6:00. The same can't be said about road travel. You may get there at 5:30, but you also may not get there until 7:00.
The current mode of transportation available to LIers will remain available, correct?
Of course, but with a convinient and fast Airtrain to LGA from Jamaica, the LIRR would become more attractive, taking many out of their cars. People will always drive, but if a viable alternative exists, that will be used too. Right now now viable alternative to driving even exists.
The same goes for public transportation to LGA from elsewhere in NYC. The only difference is that most NYC residents don't have any choice other than a (slow) bus or an (expensive) cab.
Very true again. But remember, I am by no means against an extension of the N to LGA. In fact I mentioned many times that I was all for it. It should be done in addition to the Airtrain idea from Jamaica. They would serve totally different groups of people. They would also be funded differently. The Airtrain version could be funded similarily to the way the current one was. The N train one would have to be through the MTA.
Let's see what happens with JFK AirTrain. How many LIers will actually use the convenient Jamaica connection? Not very many, I predict.
We shall see....especially since it's apparently the more chosen airport for "LIers" (again using that ridiculous phrase forgetting that Brooklyn and Queens IS LI).
"So I then have to take a shuttle service, or someone has to drop me off at the airport.
Again, that's not an option for most New Yorkers."
Actually, there are lots of services to the airports from NYC already. NY Airport Service, Airport Shuttle, NYCT, and soon, NY Water Taxi.
Also, lots of LIers doe use the train most places. Yea, a lot do drive, but many still take the buses, trains, and w/e else is available.
Just to add to that: LIers are not so stuck to their cars as some people seem think. When rail is a viable option, it is used heavily by LIers. Why else is the LIRR the busiest commuter RR in the country? When going to Manhattan, most LIers (yes, that own cars) use the train. Why do they do that? Because it is a viable and easy option to use the train to Manhattan. The reason our roads are jammed are because the places most of those people are going are not served by the LIRR. The reason they don't use it for either LGA or JFK right now is because it is not a viable option - there is no rail service. They almost HAVE to use the car. Just because people have cars, and can use cars doesn't mean they wouldn't use a viable rail option to LGA.
I couldn't agree more. And as I stated in my other post, I am not against a subway connection to LGA, but I feel an LIRR (via Airtrain from Jamaica) one is just as important. As for Islip, again poor planning also affected the rail connection there. The Ronkonkoma station is right next to the airport, and what do they do? They build the terminal (and later refurbish the existing one) on the total opposite side of the Airport. How easy an LIRR connection to that airport could have been.....
It's just like the Rockaway Branch being next to Kennedy....and they abandon the line! (lets not revive that topic again).
Poor planning is rampant in the New York area.
ISP's terminal is where it's always been. It was extensively rebuilt a few years ago and more work is in progress.
Technically speaking you could run a spur from the LIRR to the terminal and stay entirely on railroad and airport property. ON grade crossing would be required. The problem with this idea is that the line would be awkwardly located on airport property. It would have to cross right in front of several hangars and cut way to the west to avoid a runway. In addition, a number of desparately needed parking spaces at Ronkonkoma station would be lost.
All in all, the current shuttle van service does the job.
-Jeff
An extension of the Astoria lines would provide a one seat ride for more. Also, in many other cities, they have subway lines to the airport, I think NYC should do so as well.
As for a line from Woodside to LGA, how? Along the BQE? Many comming from suburban LI have to transfer in Jamaica. Would the trains run from Jamaica to LGA, or woodside to LGA? If running from Jamaica, then maybe that'd work, but I still think the airtrain idea would be better. However, the idea of the line from Woodside is tempting.
Doesn't LaGuardia have terminal connector buses?
This would allow people down in Brooklyn to get to LGA without running through Manhattan. But then, that's just crazy old me, trying to make the G USEFUL.
--Z--
"Yeah but if they would try to build the extension underground, you would still have a block or two of "transition" between Ditmars, and wherever the line would go through the portal. I don't even know if it's possible to do, unless they put the entire Astoria El underground. (Oh no, not that thread again - "Tear Down the Astoria El!!")."
HAHHA, i'm sure they could manage to get a two block transition in, so long as the majority of the line is underground. If they threaten to make the existing last two blocks of the El into transition (probably requiring that LGA trains bypass Ditmars Blvd), then they might be able to convince them that its a good idea to let them build the transition, so as to avoid the loss of service to that station
Just keep the thing elevated and pay the people along those two blocks of 31st Street for their suffering.
avid
Thats why. Besides the idea of a SUBWAY to the airport is STOOPIT.
Subways make lotsa stops, are slow, and are already filled to capacity without the need of stacks of suitcases.
The case having been made.
It is DEAD EASY and CHEAP to bring rail from Manhattan to LGA.
Most of the tracks are already in place, and the only place than needs new tracks is already a busy ROW sans NIMBYs!
The Tracks already pass through the Sunnyside Yard and up onto the Hells Gate Bridge Approach. From there you bend a new elevated structure (soundproof concrete construction, no different from a highway interchange) concurent with the Grand Central Parkway.
Trains can leave either GCT or NYP and can even connect with Newark.
Use special built for the purpose cars with comfortable seating and room for baggage. They need not be much longer than two or three cars.
Ture they will have to thread their way through complicated switching and schedules, especially at NYP, but it is doable.
So if you are interested in expanding the subway via the excuse of getting to the airport, fugetaboutit. If you want quick service to the airports then think about it.
Elias
I would still perfer to see the subway head up there, though. Not to get AROUND the airport, like the JFK Airtrain, but just to get there. Remember, not everyone who goes to the airport flies. Have any idea how many people work at a place like that?
One reason why the N is a great choice to extend to LGA is because it's one of the less crowded lines, and offers a comparatively short ride into Manhattan. Imagine riding nearly the entire length of the 7 with a bunch of suitcases, for example (Astoria NIMBYs kept suggesting a branch off the 7 near Shea Stadium instead of extending the N to reach LGA).
Absolutly IMPOSSIBLE! The (7) is already running to and beyond capacity. Ain't no way to add a diverging route.
Elias
Wrong!!!
It's the bumper-block Main St. station that is maxed out not the Flushing Line or Times Square. One quarter of all rush hour trains are turned back at either 111th or Willets Point. Sending them to LGA instead wouldn't be that difficult.
Are LGA passengers more likely to live or work in close proximity to a subway station or to an LIRR station? Are LGA passengers who would seriously consider riding transit to the airport more likely to live or work in close proximity to a subway station or to an LIRR station?
The extension of Airtrain to Jamaica would make sense. He is right Jamaica is a major hub. As an occasional LIRR passenger, I would never consider using the LIRR for LGA access, in it's current form, However, if there was a rail connection to LGA via the LIRR and Airtrain, I would certainly use it. I am sure I am not alone in this. I would certainly trust rail connection to the airport, as opposed to a bus connection. Rail is much more reliable. This is why right now I would never use the LIRR to LGA, or Kennedy for that matter. So yes, LIRR users would use the service, and most communities on LI are not far from or in close proximity to a station that would bring them to Jamaica.
That being said, I also do not feel that an airtrain connection to LGA should be the ONLY rail connection. As noted, I agree, a Jamaica Airtrain connection to LGA would be more useful to LIRR riders (and Bus riders) than they would be to subway riders, unless you live/work along Queens Blvd or the J line.
In addition, an airtrain connection from LGA to Jamaica would also have the added benefit of connecting JFK to LGA, allowing much better and reliable connections for airline travelers. It's a win situation for the region transit system, and done in conjunction with a subway connection also, would be a win situation overall. (Although, the E's connections are not horrible either, and subway riders could transfer from whatever line they use to the E train. You will never give every subway rider a one seat ride anyway. Even if the N went to LGA, it would only benefit N riders with a one seat ride, other transit riders will have to change one or two times anyway.)
Any route to LGA would have a hard time meeting its operating costs, let alone capital costs. Before talking about Airtrain extensions, I'd prefer to see what the ridership from Jamaica and Howard Beach will be. If it's as dismal as the DEIS predicts, then I see no reason why existing subway riders should subsidize the airlines through their subway fares. The airlines are subsidized enough through general taxation.
N Bwy
I know I've taken the N to Ditmars Blvd during the evening rush, and it was wonderfully easy to find a seat. When I used to take the 7 from Grand Central to Flushing regularly on weekends, I would usually have to stand to at least 74th Street.
I used to live close to Broadway station. In the morning rush hour, it was very hit and miss whether I would get a seat.
In the evening, I would board at Whitehall Street and usually get a seat, though the train was full by Canal Street.
Your mileage varied!
Now I see why you like the Seabeach "DITCH" line so much.
N Bwy
Keep the Astoria Elevated so we can get a good look of the neighborhood as we travel.
Gee, I didn't know you were a glutten for punishment. What a depressing thing to have to endure. Not exactly the Taj Majal of neighborhoods, but I guess there are some nice areas along the way if you crane your eyes and head long and far enough.
Not from the visual standpoint I would agree, since you are looking at single family/two family homes for most of the ride north from QBP.
But if you actually get off at Ditmars or Broadway. Very friendly people, good diners, cafes, restaurants, bakers
Im thinking of moving back some day.
Was the original proposal to go over Grand Central PArkway?
I think some of the GCP from the Astoria Line to the airport is in an open cut....therfore an elevated train would be on street level....and some of the GCP goes through industrial areas, where sight lines aren't a priority.
LGA needs decent mass transit, more then JFK IMO, since it caters more to business travelers on quick jaunts that will be likely to use rail. Most international passangers who have 2 huge suitcases are not going to want to use air train to JFK, no matter how quick, convenient, or cheap it is (all of those subject to debate!)!
The projected use wouldn't meet added operating costs.
I have flown close to 100K miles each year for the last few, and the air train to EWR has greatly increased my usage of that airport (I have done 4 flights there since oct 1, and not that many the 12 months prior). From midtown, it is now *at least* as convenient as any other airport door to door. Frankly, even from my home near Prospect Park, the 2,3 train makes it convenient everywhere I fly from.
my only criticisms are that it is overpriced (though the lower fares help mitigate that), and there are too few NJT ticket machines at PennNYC to provide truly quick ticketing.
the question is, does the city/PA WANT to make LaGuardia that convenient? would this further cramp the runway scarcity problem there?
IMPROVE shuttle service from Islip, Stewart and other outlying airports.
There is no need for those people to clutter up the city just to get an airplane out. The idea is to keep as much traffic, (air and automobile) out of the city.
Elias
IMPROVE shuttle service from Islip, Stewart and other outlying airports.
There is no need for those people to clutter up the city just to get an airplane out. The idea is to keep as much traffic, (air and automobile) out of the city.
These services exist because they are useful. I once worked for a new media company during the boom, who needed to get a bunch of us to a client meeting in Boston. Flew up in the morning, drove outside Boston to the office, and back in time for dinner. Amtrak, bless its soul, can't do that.
Well, between 6 and 10 a.m. there are around 7 trains going to Boston. You could have caught the 8:03 out of Penn Station and been in South Station by 11:30. If your business was concluded in time to catch the 3:15 p.m. train back, you could have gotten back to Manhattan by 6:40 p.m. Time for dinner. The airline version of that trip couldn't have been much better as far as time spent.
As for Stewart, I-287 rail line is supposed to go there.
So just expand La Guardia until it meets to existing Astoria line terminus at Ditmars! This would be easier because it's easier to get money for air travel than urban transit from the feds!
: )
Mark
That's so crazy it JUST MIGHT WORK.
:)
Fantasies come true...
--Z--
I can't help thinking of the original specification for the Paris Metro in 1900: "For Passengers and their HAND Luggage."
I can't help thinking of the original specification for the Paris Metro in 1900: "For Passengers and their HAND Luggage."
I'm going to wait to comment on this for a month. The reason why: I want to see how many people, with baggage, use the JFK Airtrain via NYCT, versus LIRR. People ALREADY lug their stuff via NYCT just to hit the PA's shuttle bus, with a well-advertised Airtrain, you might start seeing a lot more people moving luggage via the A, E, J and Z lines. Will this be a good thing? We'll find out in a month.
In my opinion, it would be possible to put the line underground under those 2 blocks by building a portal just north of Astoria Blvd. This is a nondescript stretch, though it does have a public school. Then you could sell the plan to the neighborhood by building a brand new (3-track) Ditmars station with ADA access and a location right under Ditmars Blvd. Right now the station is a very long walk from the Ditmars bus. Of course, this would be a lot more expensive than a simple extension of the el.
One of these days, I'll write to Vallone's son about it.
The el for the astoria line is cut back to just after the Amtrak bridge to allow for a transition to subway. New station at ditmars av. From there stations are:
Hazen St
Parking lot 7
Parking lot 1/Employees
Terminal D/C
Terminal B/A
Parking lot 3(West end)/Employees
Parking lot 4/US airways
Parking lot 4/US Airways shuttle
Parking lot 4/Delta
and then possibly in the future:
31st Dr/World's Fair Marina
Shea Stadium
Flushing Main St
Also, airtrain would be extended to serve the suburbs via Jamaica(PW line can use astoria lines or airtrain from flushing main st)
Question:
Can airtrain be sent underground, say, under Parsons and Kissena BLVDS? If so, this would be the best routing. This is proposal 1
1. From JFK to Jamaica, next stops are:
Parsons BLVD
LIE/Queens College
Flushing Main St
Shea Satdium
31st Dr/World's Fair marina
Parking lot 4/Delta
Parking lot 4/US Airways shuttle
Parking lot 4/US airways
Parking lot 3(West end)/Employees
Terminal B/A
Terminal D/C
Parking lot 1/Employees
Parking lot 7
Delta Shuttle/Ferry Terminal
From Flushing Main St to parking lot 7, the ROW is 4 tracks wide. The Flushing Main st, parking lots, and airport terminal stops consist of 2 extra wide island platforms to allow for quick and easy, cross platform, transfers. The wide platforms accodmodate the potential crowds with all their luggage and what not. The other stops would just be 2 regular width island platforms.
Proposal 2 has trains originating at Jamaica and then continuing up the Van Wyck expressway and college pt blvd. Stops would be:
Jamaica
Main St
83rd Av
LIE
Flushing Main St
Shea Stadium
31st Dr/World's Fair marina
Parking lot 4/Delta
Parking lot 4/US Airways shuttle
Parking lot 4/US airways
Parking lot 3(West end)/Employees
Terminal B/A
Terminal D/C
Parking lot 1/Employees
Parking lot 7
Delta Shuttle/Ferry Terminal
Now the suburbs and NYC have rail service to both airports, JFK and LGA
Extend AirTran from Jamaica over median of the Grand Central Pkwy to LGA terminals again over GCP to BQE south to Freight ROW to Woodside.
Additional stops Stops at
1. Shea to connect to #7 and LIRR.
2. BQE and Broadway to connect V,G,R
3. Woodside station to connect to LIRR and #7
[Posted by NIMBYkiller
Shea is a limited service stop for the PW line, and LIRR would never make regular stops there, even for locals. However, Flushing main st on the other hand, is always getting heavy use. Lots of people getting off of NYP bound trains, and getting on PW bound trains. Also, all those bus connections!Bout 25 of them. They should make this an express stop with Airtrain serving it. ]
I assume $25 is for coach, but I'd still be very tempted!
Coach I don't care, whatever, I thought 32 bucks to houston was nice, but 25 to LA, man. 95% less than what it costs me to fly same time last year. Just be nice if it was HSR.
To access, type in http://www.mapjunction.com/places/Boston_BRA/main.pl?ht=768
then click on 1995 BWSC, scroll down to Future Boston Map Collection and click, go to Testing and click, and then scroll on down to 1925 Boston Elevated Railway Lines P1 and click. You will find this detailed map that includes the Atlantic Ave el and the original location of the Orange Line with station names, and last but not least, several trolley lines as well.
This was mentioned in railroad.net, but I figured this belonged here in Subtalk as well. Enjoy!
To The Maps
For those of you who don't know (or who got the notice in time but it just didn't register < g >), the December 2003 New York Division-ERA meeting is THIS Friday, December 12, the SECOND Friday of the month, as opposed to the usual third Friday, which is the 19th.
Eric Oszustowicz is presenting the show, and those of you who have seen his previous presentations know that they're always top-notch. The show begins with photos from various NYC subway fantrips held this year, then it's on to Alaska for some very interesting shots. The second half of the show is devoted to REDBIRDS and the end of the graffiti era at NYC Transit.
Door fee for non-members/non-subscribers is $5, which is waived for first-time attendees. The meeting will be held at St. John's University, 101 Murray Street (between Chambers and West Streets) in lower Manhattan. Doors open at 6:15 PM, and the meeting starts at 7:15 PM.
David Ross
Production Manager - The Bulletin
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
And I realize that I've asked this question before.
But has there been any thought of having an occasional NYD-ERA meeting on some other night of the week? I have a hunch I'm not the only one here who would love to attend but can't come on a Friday night (or on a Saturday night except in the winter).
S.I.R.T. walk when? toward 'Port Ivory'
David Ross
Production Manager - The Bulletin
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
I should join anyway, but I'd join in a heartbeat if I could attend some of the meetings, which I can't if they're all on Friday nights. And, again, I don't think I'm the only one in this boat.
--Mark
BTW, I echo David of Broadway's sentiments.
Thanks.
--Mark
Back issues from other years can be ordered individually or in sets. Call (212) 986-4482 and leave your number. Someone will get back to you.
Dues are $35 (check or money order, please) and may be sent to:
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
PO Box 3001
New York NY 10008-3001
David Ross
Production Manager - The Bulletin
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
David Ross
Production Manager - The Bulletin
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
Oh boy! You're gonna have some meeting on non-Fridays! That's great news! After you post the first non-Friday meeting notice, I'll immediately sign up, unless of course it is on a Yom Tov.
David Ross
Production Manager - The Bulletin
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
1. How much is admission for non-members again?
2. What do you think are my chances of making it on time from my job at Rector & Washington Sts which lets out at ~7 o'clock?
H=hook
2=2
C=coupler
So I think it stands for "Hook 2 coupler". It's a HOOK type of COUPLER and the hook number for this type of coupler is probably #2.
The "C" definitely does not stand for "coupler" since H2As are also couplers. I believe the trailing letter indicates the kind of trainline connections included in the coupler.
Also, those couplers are not the standard; they were. The TA settled on what we now see as the 'Ohio Brass' coupler (r-142,143,44/46) after tasting them for the first time on the troubled r-44/46's - with supposed success - only to rewind the clock with the r-62,68's for the sake of K.I.S.S. prudence. The Ohio Brass' advantages lie in more train-lines.
The only other system in the country I've seen to use (have used) the WABCO H-2-A/C couplers - beside PATH - are the pacific red cars. Those interurban trolley cars on steroids serving L.A.. I don't bother acknowledging PATH, personally, because by they've always semi-copy-cats. By default, they're going to be: being in the shadow of the TA, and all. Concerning the PATH; the same goes for the switch to the Ohio Brass.
R-32.
#3 West End Jeff
R-32.
The OB couplers are relatively simple. However, as I mentioned in
the other post, they are much more prone to failure leading to
accidental uncoupling and, by design, they need to be buffed before
they can be uncoupled.
In the end, the single-supplier thing blew up in NYCT face, just
like Metrocard and CBTC, since WABCO wound up owning OB.
The H head coupler is basically a tightlock version of the
standard AAR knuckle coupler. The mating surfaces are
precision machined and at an angle to ensure very little slop.
What keeps the thing coupled is the locking dog wedge which fits
into a pocket on the back side of the angled mating face.
That angle means that buff and draft forces are translated
into perpendicular forces, which would tend to move the coupler
sideways away from its mate. The locking wedge prevents that
movement and keeps the thing coupled.
This is a much better design than hook couplers because it does
not attempt to support the entire draft force via a tiny hook.
It is virtually impossible for an H head coupler to unintentionally
part except in cases of gross mechanical damage, and at the same
time when uncoupling is desired, it will uncouple easily and without
the need to pre-buff the coupler thanks to the hammer-blow design
of the uncouple piston, which knocks the locking wedge back out
of the way.
The H is the basic WABCO model designation. They made a lot of
couplers....the IRT used J couplers which were similar to H.
K couplers were popular on interurbans and street railways.
They featured a circular electric portion inside the mating face
instead of below the coupler head. The N style coupler is used on
M1s, M3s, etc. and is of a hook design.
The numeral relates to the size of the coupler. Streetcar couplers
tended to be size "1". The H2 is larger than the H1, although
I'm not certain any H1s were actually manufactured. There may
have been a size 3 too, but again I can't think of an example.
The "C" is a minor variation on the model. The big difference
between an H2A (used on AMUE cars such as R-9s) and H2C used
on the SMEE cars is in the cutting arrangement.
The H2C has a small internal reservoir which is charged from
the lower pipe (Brake Pipe), which under SMEE is usually charged.
When the cutting operation is initiated by admitting air to the
cutting control pipe (via the cutting valve either under the car
or in the cab), the internal relay valve mechanism isolates the
car's brake pipe from the coupler head so it doesn't go into
emergency when the cars separate. The volume reservoir is used
to provide the air to pop the cutting piston.
Under AMUE, the top pipe (Main Reservoir) is always charged, whereas
the Brake Pipe is variable. Air for the cutting piston is taken
directly from the MR pipe, with no volume reservoir. The brake pipe
isolating feature is provided by an external brake pipe cutoff
valve.
If there was ever an H2B coupler, I don't know who used it or what
it did.
I hope that is more than you wanted to know.
R-32.
Regards,
Jimmy
MY (Newkirk Images) suggested list went up to $10.95 this year. I failed to notify Mr.Matus of the change before he reviewed the calendar.
Bill "Newkirk"
First page: I like the close-up photo of R16 #6369, but being that I was born in 1992 and I am growing up with color photo technology, I'm not a big fan of those photos.
January 2004: I HATE THE R62's/R62A's. I wish that William Mangahas (the photographer) could have photographed the redbird in the background (which was at 74 Street-Broadway). ;(
February 2004: The most aesthtically pleasing R type to date looks great on a sunny day. Part of the first R142A 5-car set manufactured/delivered, R142A #7215!
March 2004: I have no opinion. There's the evidence of the great old Fulton El.
April 2004: Man, that's high. If only the R16's had a better paint scheme.
May 2004: Those S.I.R.T. cars have a great paint scheme!
June 2004: I guess I like the Lo-V's. I'm a modern-day kid, but of course I don't HATE the Lo-V's (even though I have a limited knowledge of them).
July 2004: The paint's terrific.
August 2004: Too dull.
September 2004: No opinion.
October 2004: A bit of history: the E. 105 St. grade crossing.
November 2004: Two R143's on the (M). Those car bodies are GLEAMING.
December 2004: Just a photo of a work train at Queensboro Plaza in 1986: The Graffiti War.
Newkirk comes out with these calendars months in advance of the new year. I bought the 2002 calendar on SEPTEMBER 8, 2001, and carried it with me through the WTC complex in, what would be, the { :( } the last time as it was known then.
That was photographed on a Saturday when headways are not as frequent. It would have been nice if there was also a Redbird outbound to Flushing, but it was a bitter cold day and I didn't want to stay there too long.
As for your review of the calendar, I try to insert images that appeal to anyone of any generation. It's tuff to satisfy everyone.
Bill "Newkirk"
Thanks Thurston !
Bill "Newkirk"
Time to buy a calendar...
Santa Claus is taking requests for me. I seem to have forgotten the North Pole's area code. Santa now has a fax machine !
Bill "Newkirk"
I shot that from a moving southbound train. In fact, I think it was a SubTalk field trip since Harry Beck and some other SubTalkers were with me.
Bill "Newkirk"
Some of the recent sharp clear shots, like of the R142s and R143s, are just beautiful.
Wyckoff and Gates was the Ridgewood Office.
Fulton and Crescent was the Cypress Hills Office.
The main office was at 1451 Myrtle Ave which I thought was next to the old First National City Bank.
-William A. Padron
["Wash.Hts.-6th Av.Lcl."]
Out on the Queens line, you'd see, "Queensboro - 8th Ave".
Last October, I spotted some old direction signs on the rampway from the original side of the PABT leading down to the subway mezzanine which I remember from the 60s. Something like "To downtown and Brooklyn trains" with an arrow pointing to the right and "To Queens and uptown trains" with an arrow pointing to the left. And to think I had my camera with me but didn't take a picture...
ALP46 #4603
Dinky in storage - The Princeton Shuttle was bustituted.
NJT train #3846
Amtrak AEM7 #907
I wish I was you...:-)
See here: http://www.railfanwindow.com/gallery/PriJct2000
Now I have a question - surely among the many photos you've taken over the years, you must have at least one shot of the *original* interiors of the Jersey Arrows (particularly the 1's), Septa Silverliners and Comet I's?
Just wondering...
I'm not a photographer. I had a cheap 35 mm camera that I bought when I was in the army. It didn't have flash, so I took only slides outdoors with good light. I didn't store them properly, so all the old slides are gone.
I also had a Super 8 mm movie camera, so when I became a railfan I took slides and movies.
When I got a video camera I essentially stopped taking slides, so there's a big gap where I have very little coverage.
When I got a digital camera (with thanks to Harry Beck for his helpful consultation), I stopped taking video (except for video of the grandkids).
As of today, PJ was looking much greyer (salt/sand over the pristine snow) and the Dinky was running.
NJ Transit to New York was 17 minutes late, as the annoying automated announcement kept telling us.
Queensboro Bridge Trolley Terminal routes:
Q101-was the steinway trolley
Q60-was the Queens BLVD trolley
Q65/66- Part of what was the college point trolley from queensboro bridge to flushing, the rest is the Q65?
Q19-Was the Dutch Kills(Astoria) trolley
At the Williamsburg Bridge Trolley Terminal:
B60 to Fulton St-was the Hamburg(wilson Av) trolley. Did this trolley ever go to the current end on the B60?
B47-was the Ralph Av trolley
B43 from Flushing Av then south-was the Tompkins Av trolley
B39-was the Bridge Local(If I'm wrong on this one, then nothing here is right, lol)
Q59-was the Grand St trolley
B48 from Broadway then south-was the Franklin Av trolley
In the Bronx:
Bx35-was the 167th st trolley
Bx41
Bx9
So...are any of these gueses right?
Also, I read here that the M10 is a former trolley line. Did the trolley follow the exact same routing at the M10, including the split at 63rd and central park west?
At the Williamsburg Bridge Trolley Terminal:
B60 to Fulton St-was the Hamburg(wilson Av) trolley. Did this trolley ever go to the current end on the B60?
Yes, but don't know how far it went.
B47-was the Ralph Av trolley
I don't know what B47 is now. B47 used to be Tompkins ... but anyway, the trolley line was called Ralph-Rockaway.
B43 from Flushing Av then south-was the Tompkins Av trolley
Yes. Tompkins was also one of the lines extended to Coney Island during the summer as Tompkins-Culver.
B39-was the Bridge Local(If I'm wrong on this one, then nothing here is right, lol)
Duh.
Q59-was the Grand St trolley
Yes. Ex B-59.
B48 from Broadway then south-was the Franklin Av trolley
Yes, but the Franklin car continued down Ocean Avenue and Parkside Avenue to end south of Park Circle. This part of the route was covered by the B33 Hamilton Bus until 1970(?) or so. The Hamilton bus ran essentially never.
But seriously, there are (or were) routes that only ran once a day or even once a year. An example of the latter was a bus route via (IIRC) Broadway and 8th Street, Manhattan. It ran once in each direction every year, simply to maintain the franchise.
Do you know what route this took to Coney Island?
Presumably somehow it got onto Gravesend/McDonald Av - but it doesn't look possible from the BAHN layout!
The Manhattan & Queens Railway came out over the Queensboro Bridge and continued along Queens Blvd. It was cut back to just the bridge & became the Queensboro Bridge Railway. It bcame part of Queens-Nassau Transit Lines before being converted to bus April 7, 1957.
"Q101-was the steinway trolley"
Was part of Steinway Lines which became Queens Surface Corp.
"Q65/66- Part of what was the college point trolley from queensboro bridge to flushing, the rest is the"
Was part of New York & Queens County Railway which became Queens Surface Corp.
The "Waiting Room" of the last depot can be found in Woodside on Broadway at 51st Street. The mall behind it is where the depot stood.
Thurston, I'm a little confused.
I know that Queensboro Bridge Railway operated the trolleys over
the bridge, becoming the last trolley line to operate in New York
State.
Why would Manhattan & Queens Railway or the bus line [Q60] choose
not to operate into the 2nd Avenue underground terminal? IIRC,
in the fifties, it was the Bridge Trolley & Steinway Lines Q101
using the terminal. The Q60 bus terminated at 60th Street &
Second Avenue. Also the Bridge Trolleys in the last years of
service were painted in the Orange & Cream [popsicle] paint
scheme same as Steinway Lines and Queens Transit?
Who was Queens-Nassau Transit Lines? Didn't the Steinway Lines
cars operate over the bridge prior to bustification along with the
Manhattan & Queens cars? Also there was a connection a connection
on 59th Street with Third Avenue Railways. >>GG<<
:>) ~ Sparky
You have to go further back in history to make the picture clear.
In the 20's M&Q went out of business. Queens Blvd. became a bus route, while the bridge trolley service remained. In 1927 they bought some used Cincinnati trolleys from New Bedford. 2nd Ave/TARS/5th Ave all had some interest across that bridge (there was a line on the upper part of the bridge as well as the outside of the lower part). In 1942 the Salzbergs aka Steinway/Queens Transit & the bridge line were one big happy family.
"... Who was Queens-Nassau Transit Lines? ..." This was the first Salzberg non-trolley name for the company. Next came Steinway Transit & Queens Transit, then in 1986 Queens Surface Corp.
IIRC, and a BERA Journal was done on this line, the Queens Boulevard
Trolley Line ran till at least the mid thirties. It was busified
when the IND Queens Blvd. Subway went into service. See if BERA
Historian has extra copy or can copy the journal about Queens
Boulevard for you. You'll see him Saturday
>>>"In 1927 they bought some used Cincinnati trolleys from New Bedford."<<<
M&Q, may have both used Cincinnati trolleys, but not from New Bedford.
The New Bedford cars came after WWII and were the Osgood-Bradley
Master Units built 1930 that remain till the end of service. Car 601 is still at TMNY.
>>>"2nd Ave/TARS/5th Ave all had some interest across that bridge (there was a line on the upper part of the bridge as well as the outside of the lower part)."<<<
There was never a trolley on the upper deck. Third Avenue or other
Manhattan Conduit Cars, were on the lower deck inside roadway till 1919.
5th Avenue coach lines route 15 (Now Q32) ran from Jackson Heights
to 25th Street, Manhattan. Fifth Avenues Queen Mary's were used
on the route also via lower roadway.
Third Avenue had some interest in the Bridge Local after 1939 also,
as cars 650 - 655 of the 1939 homebuilt cars with trolley poles,
less resilient wheels. [felt unnecessary because of the steel
decking on outer roadway]. Connection with 59th Street Crosstown
remained till end of Crosstown Service [November, 1946].
:>) ~ Sparky
I'm confused now. I always had a feeling the Q32 was a former trolley line, but you're saying it went to 25th st? Via what, 5th av the whole route on manhattan? If so, then I take it the former trolley never went to NYP, right? Is the rest of the Q32 the same as the trolley, or did the trolley go further than Northern BLVD/83rd st?
"Connection with 59th Street Crosstown
remained till end of Crosstown Service [November, 1946]. "
So, there was a line the whole length of 59th st?
Branford's very own TARS Car 629 regularly ran on the 59th St crosstown for a while before getting shipped to Vienna Austria. There is a picture of it in the Branford guide book on 59th & Ninth.
Car 625 ~ 644 of the 1939 Third Avenue home built cars were built
less trolley poles for service on the 59th Street Crosstown
Line. All cars went to the Bronx & trolley poles were added in
1946, where they served till end of Bronx service in 1948.
Car went to Vienna in 1949.
Branford's 629 wears the TATS paint scheme of service in the Bronx.
Seashore's 631 is decked out in the TARS Manhattan paint scheme.
:>) ~ Sparky
And the third in Washington, D.C. ..... ?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
As to the pan, it was ripped off by NCTM's wire frogs, which have no skates for joint pan-pole operations (see MUNI's wire for example).
They managed to tear the pans off the Berlin car and the Graz car as well, I expect the Hague PCC to loose it's some time in the future.
Pantographs and un-skated frogs do not go well together.
Your feeling is WRONG
There were never any trolleys on 5th Avenue.
So, there was a line the whole length of 59th st?
Yes
In 1974 it was renamed M32 to prevent conflict with the M15 1st-2nd Avenues.
In 1988 it became the Q32 to reflect it's primarily Queensian purpose.
I do not know when it was cut back from Madison Square and rerouted to follow the M4 to Penn, it was sometime between 1976 and 1990.
Hagstrom map from 1983 shows it running to Madison Square.
Arti
Of course, I preferred the subway, but my mother pointed out that it was three blocks to 46th-Bliss and three blocks to 40th-Lowery. I got my way with the trains whenever we wanted to go to Broadway, 7th Av, etc. on the west side, and Lexington, 3rd, etc. on the east side.
Re. the 20's for the end of the trolleys on Queens Blvd., that is the information I have, but don't have the source material in front of me. AND I'm not going to look it up !
Re. mfg. Cincinnati vs. Osgood-Bradley, yes I miss-spoke without looking up the detail. The last trolleys to be used on the bridge were in fact Osgood Bradley. Their design was similar to the Brill's of the time.
Re. upper deck cars, yes I knew they were el cars form 2nd Ave. I was only trying to point out what the upper deck was orig. used for.
Do you know why the first buses bought by Salzberg were AFC-Brill's, I do.
I did check with a source and the Last M&Q car - round trip Jamaica-Manhattan - 2:55 AM 4/15/1937.
>>>"Re. mfg. Cincinnati vs. Osgood-Bradley, yes I miss-spoke without looking up the detail. The last trolleys to be used on the bridge were in fact Osgood Bradley. Their design was similar to the Brill's of the time."<<<
Here's one to verify. Were the Manhattan Bridge 3 cent cars that
ran on the Queensboro Bridge Line prior to the Osgood-Bradley
cars, Cincinnati built?
>>>"Do you know why the first buses bought by Salzberg were AFC-Brill's, I do."<<<
No, and I have no interest in it, but would make a good topic for
BusTalk, though.
>>>"I hate folks who ask questions & already have the answer so they can point out your errors :-("<<<
If you are going to make statements on a public message board,
verify the facts are CORRECT or be subject to contradiction.
;>) ~ Sparky
And correct me if I'm wrong, these were leased Third Avenue Cars but
being used on the Queensboro Bridge Line. All until the arrival of
the New Bedford Cars. Since, I do not have this roster there is no
mention of the 650~655 cars on the Queensboro Bridge. I have a
photo of 655 on East 59th Street at the end of 59th Street line
with trolley poles & destination reads New York. Current location
of photo unknown.
;>) ~ Sparky
Thanks for the data from Seyfried's Book. I'm more prone towards
the Brooklyn Trolleys, being a lifelong resident of the Borough
of Kings. I really have no information at all about the Manhattan
Bridge 3 Cent Line. But you did pose some very interesting points.
Also glancing at the ERA Brooklyn StreetCar Trackage Map, besides
the Manhattan Bridge 3 Cent abandoned trackage, it also refers to
"Third Avenue Railway" trackage on the Manhattan Bridge. What
level was this trackage located? 4 Subway tracks & 4 Trolley tracks.
All the lower East River Bridges in their youth were carriers of
trackage, either Subway, Elevated or Street Car.
Queensboro Bridge [till 1919]: 4 Street Car tracks & 2 Elevated.
Williamsburhg Bridge [till 1929]: 4 Street Car & 2 Subway tracks.
Manhattan Bridge: SEE ABOVE Question.
Brooklyn Bridge [till 1941]: 2 Street Car & 2 Elevated tracks.
:>) ~ Sparky
Also Joe Saitta jumped on the band wagon with much information
he is researching for a new book with Vincent Seyfried.
Refer to: Corrected Queens Trolley and Bus Information (618892).
Fantastic reading.
:>) ~ Sparky
"... No, and I have no interest in it, but would make a good topic for
BusTalk, though ..."
Wrong trolley breath, I'm sure you will care ....
Slazberg had an order with Brill for BrilLiners, i.e. PCC look-a-likes. They would have been the only ones of the type here on NYC streets. But,
a certain NYC Mayor, said oh no you don't ! When he tryed to cancel the order it ended up that Brill offered him 50 buses.
That was an interesting piece of Traction Trivia and also the
fact that another Traction Company placed an order for "Brillliners",
besides the "Miss America Fleet" in Atlantic City and the few
demonstraters hither & dither. IIRC, 3 ~ Philadelphia, 1 ~ Baltimore
and 1 ~ Cincinnatti. Now a OT question about the ACF~Brill Buses,
gas or diesel.
Crunching yours of course Mr. T. & LOL.
;>) ~ Sparky
>>>B60 to Fulton St-was the Hamburg(wilson Av) trolley. Did this trolley ever go to the current end on the B60?<<<
Brooklyn Trolley Route 14 [B60] Wilson operated from Williamsburg
Bridge Plaza to Carnarsie Depot. Route 14S Wilson Shuttle from
Carnarsie Depot to Rockaway Parkway Subway Station. In later years
ran all way thru to Rockaway Parkway.
>>>B47-was the Ralph Av trolley<<<
B47 was not Ralph Avenue Trolley. Brooklyn Trolley Route 10
was Ralph~Rockaway, when busified [B40]. Southern terminal
for trolley line was Carnarsie Depot.
Original B47, was Brooklyn Trolley Route 7 to Empire Blvd. &
Flatbush Avenue. Now B-43 south of Flushing Avenue.
>>>B43 from Flushing Av then south-was the Tompkins Av trolley<<<
^^^ See Above ^^^
B39-was the Bridge Local or Q Trolley Line.
>>>Q59-was the Grand St trolley.<<< Was B59 and Trolley Line 59
and operated as far North in Queens as North Beach.
>>>B48 from Broadway then south-was the Franklin Av trolley<<<
B48, is a little trickier.
Brooklyn Trolley Route 47 operated from Williamsburgh Bridge
via Whyte Avenue along with Trolley Route 15 [B61] from Broadway
to Flushing Avenue and then via Franklin Avenue [B48] to Park
Circle.
Brooklyn Trolley Route 48 operated from Box Street & Manhattan
Avenue, Lorimer Street [B48] to Lee Avenue\Nostrand Avenue [B44]
to Empire Boulevard, Ocean Avenue, Parkside Avenue to Park Circle.
October 28, 1945 Trolley Route 47 was discontinued and Trolley
Route 48 was rerouted via Flushing Avenue & Franklin Avenue to
Park Circle. Northern Terminal was also rerouted via Nassau
Avenue and Trolley Route 19 discontinued. Also in later years,
service was cut back from Park Circle to Empire Boulevard.
:>) ~ Sparky
Where was the Canarsie Depot? At New Lots Av?
"B47 was not Ralph Avenue Trolley. Brooklyn Trolley Route 10
was Ralph~Rockaway, when busified [B40]. Southern terminal
for trolley line was Carnarsie Depot."
What I read somewhere is that there was a trolley line running to the Rockaway Parkway subway station via Ralph Av and Rockaway Av. Your sayin that this was the Ralph Rockaway Trolley?
Now, what about the Ralph Av trolley? The B40 is now the B47, which goes down Raplh Av to Av U, then Av U to Flatbush Av. Is this the same routing as the Ralph Av trolley?
"Brooklyn Trolley Route 47 operated from Williamsburgh Bridge
via Whyte Avenue along with Trolley Route 15 [B61] from Broadway
to Flushing Avenue and then via Franklin Avenue [B48] to Park
Circle."
Thank you for clearing this up. So, is the B61 an old trolley line from Red Hook all the way to LIC, or is the B61 an old trolley line only from the Williamsburg bridge to Red Hook. If not, then is it an old trolley route from Williamsburg bridge to LIC?
Also, the 47 trolley route, did that operate down Ocean Av and parkside Av as well to get to Park Circle, or did it cut through the park?
"Northern Terminal was also rerouted via Nassau
Avenue and Trolley Route 19 discontinued."
What was Northern Terminal and what was the routing of the 19?
THANKS SO MUCH FOR ALL THE GREAT INFO!!!
SW corner of the intersection of New Lots Av and Rockaway Av.
What I read somewhere is that there was a trolley line running to the Rockaway Parkway subway station via Ralph Av and Rockaway Av. Your sayin that this was the Ralph Rockaway Trolley?
Now, what about the Ralph Av trolley? The B40 is now the B47, which goes down Raplh Av to Av U, then Av U to Flatbush Av. Is this the same routing as the Ralph Av trolley?
Two trolley routes:
#10 Willy B, Bway, Ralph, St John's, Rockaway (to Canarsie depot)
#11 Willy B, Bway, Ralph, E98 (to Canarsie depot)
Thank you for clearing this up. So, is the B61 an old trolley line from Red Hook all the way to LIC, or is the B61 an old trolley line only from the Williamsburg bridge to Red Hook. If not, then is it an old trolley route from Williamsburg bridge to LIC?
#15 Red Hook to Manhattan/Commercial in Greenpoint.
Also, the 47 trolley route, did that operate down Ocean Av and parkside Av as well to get to Park Circle, or did it cut through the park?
Ocean and Parkside.
"Northern Terminal was also rerouted via Nassau
Avenue and Trolley Route 19 discontinued."
What was Northern Terminal and what was the routing of the 19?
IINM, #48's Northern terminal was either Bedford/Manhattan or Commercial/Manhattan. #19 ran for a very short distance between Manhattan Av and Meeker Av on Nassau Av.
Via willy B? Also, what do you mean, commercial in Greenpoint. Did it go to Greenpoint from Manhattan or Red Hook?
The B61 bus still pretty much follows the old trolley route, but there have been changes over the years.
In recent years, it has been extended via Jackson Avenue, Long
Island City for service to Queens Plaza South.
:>) ~ Sparky
Was Long Island City the nothern terminus of #15 Crosstown? Any
photo[s] I have seen of said location, next to the 108th Pct.
shows car on the #16 Graham Avenue route. From what I remember
the Crosstown Cars did not go to Long Island City. Even after
the #16 Graham Avenue was bustituted with ETBs in December, 1948
and became the B62 which ran over the Manhattan Ave. Bridge to
LIC till the Pulaski Bridge opened in 1951 and the #15 Crosstown
was motorized and the terminals exchanged. BTW, the #16 when
in operation for its entire length was a TriBorough Car Line!
>>>"Commercial St. in Greenpoint is where the cars could short turn or go into storage at the Crosstown Depot. This street runs behind the site of the old Crosstown carbarn on Manhattan Ave."<<<
In its peak the loop tracks at Manhattan Avenue, Commercial Street
and Box Streets, besides being the location of the Crosstown Car
House, was a transportation hub. Route #17 Greenpoint Line,
Route #15 Crosstown, Route #48 Lorimer Street & Route #56 Union Avenue
all used the location as their northern terminal.
>>>"This street runs behind the site of the old Crosstown carbarn on Manhattan Ave."<<<
The Crosstown Car House was on Manhattan Avenue & Box Street,
not Commercial Street.
>>>"The NYCTA Bus painting facility on Commercial St. still has the pit tracks in their building."<<<
Yes, that's the new Crosstown Depot. And is the service building
with the pit used by Bus Painting or Emergency Response. Also the
mobil wash unit is located at old Crosstown Depot.
:>) ~ Sparky
Thanks for the clarifications on Crosstown routings.
I wanna copy of that footage for Christmas.
Now, while were on the subject of the new Crosstown Depot bulding and
its pit track, did they only service the 6000s in the building
from 1947/48 till end of service in 1951. Or was a joint service
facility for the 3000s [ETBs], which ran out of Crosstown till
end of service in 1960? Were the 3000s ever serviced at Crosstown
or was it a storage facility only?
:>) ~ Sparky
No. SW corner of Rockaway and Hegeman.
I use the ERA Brooklyn track map for reference.
:>) ~ Sparky
Don't you remember when this route was created by combining the B40 and B78 on September 8, 2002?
The B78 ran from Rutland Road to Avenue U and Mill Avenue and was created in 1966. It was never a trolley. It was extended to Kings Plaza sometime after 1976 (Kings Plaza opened in 1970).
OK, actually, there was a spur of the Flatbush Avenue service that branched off of the line on Avenue N and turned onto Ralph Avenue, but then it ran there only very briefly, turning then onto Mill Avenue and then east onto Strickland Avenue. This was one track and stopped in 1926.
http://www.backinthebronx.com/takeridedetails.html
Before the major bus route reorganization in The Bronx, the Southern Boulevard route (now the Bx19, was back then the Bx31) did not go to Manhattan. It's southern terminus was at 133rd Street and Bruckner Boulevard. It would be reasonable to assume that the trolley's route was the same as the bus route that initially replaced it.
Similarly, since the Bx9 bus route bears the same name (Bronx & Van Cortlandt Parks) as the old trolley line, it would be reasonable to assume that the trolley line followed the same route as the bus does. I don't think the trolley would have been called Bronx & Van Cortlandt Parks if it had turned south onto Webster Avenue from Fordham Road.
I could be wrong, but I believe that TARS did run routes wholly within The Bronx, as well as routes in Manhattan.
You are correct. I don't have my reference material handy to list some of the routes, but they did have Bronx-only lines.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
So, the old Bronx&Van Cortland Park trolley ran from West Farms Square to the county line via todays Bx9 routing?
Hey, did we meet at Croton? I was with Trevor Logan, Incognito and some other people outside. I think Ozzy(Costanza) was there and so was Neil Feldman?
Sorry, but I wasn't at Croton. Why, do I look familiar? ;-)
The following routes crossed the Willy B:
#7 Tompkins Avenue (until 8/24/47) B39+B43
#10 Ralph-Rockaway Avenues (until 5/27/51) B39+B47+St John's Pl+B60 (to Canarsie depot)
#44 Nostrand Avenue (until 4/1/51) B39+B44
The following routes terminated at the Bridge Plaza:
#3 Sumner Avenue (until 7/20/47) B15+B65W+B75+B71 or B15 (to Canarsie depot)
#11 Ralph Av (until ??? - prob 5/27/51) B47+B15 (to Canarsie depot)
#14 Wilson Avenue (until 5/27/51) B60
#24 Broadway (until 1/15/50) Q24
#46 Utica - Reid Avenues (until 3/18/51) B46 (to Av N)
#47 Franklin Avenue (until 10/28/45) B48+Ocean+Parkside (to Park Circle)
#50 Bushwick Avenue (until 9/1/47) B60+B13+B54 (to Myrtle/Wyckoff)
Seeing as there were dedicated tracks on the bridge and an eight track terminal at Essex St, I don't know why so many trollies terminated at the Bridge Plaza.
I can take a guess here. Back then, the Williamsburg area, especially near the waterfront was a busy industrial area. Breweries, factories, shipbuilders, the Havemeyer sugar plant, lots of jobs for people to have to get to.
And it could be political and competitive reasons also. Some type of agreement where those Brooklyn lines had to end at the Plaza.
#7 Tompkins Avenue (until 8/24/47) B39+B43
#10 Ralph-Rockaway Avenues (until 5/27/51) B39+B47+St John's Pl+B60 (to Canarsie depot)
#44 Nostrand Avenue (until 4/1/51) B39+B44"<<<
James,
A minor correction to the above motorization dates of streetcar
routes. The dates shown are the date of bustitution, but trolley
service on the Williamsburgh Bridge ended 12/4/48. Also in the
last years only the Bridge Local, route Q operated over the
Willie B. Do not know what year thru cars stopped running to
Delancey Street.
And on #7 Tompkins as run North to Williamsburgh, would be
B39+B47. The current B-43 does not serve the former Northern
sections of Route #7 (trolley) & #B47 (ETB & Bus).
And #14 Wilson Avenue, was cut back from Bridge Plaza to
Broadway & Marcy Avenue prior to motorization.
;>) ~ Sparky
M1: on Madison and Park/4th yes, (it used the tunnel), on 5th, no
M2: no
M3: no
M4: no
M5: no
M6: yes
M7: yes
M8: yes
M9: yes
M10: yes
M11: yes
M14: yes
M15: yes
M16: no
M18: no
M20: yes
M21: no
M22: yes
M23: yes
M27: no
M30: no
M31: yes
M34: yes
M35: no
M42: yes
M50: no
M57: no
M60: no
M66: no
M72: no
M79: no
M86: no
M96: no
M98: no
M100: yes
M101: yes
M102: yes
M103: yes
M104: yes
M106: no
M116: no
Bx15: yes
Bx33: yes
Bx6: yes
Bx3/11/13/35/36: don't know
Bx12: yes, don't remember how far east though (NOT VIA PELHAM PKWY!)
Bx7: no
Bx20: sort of
B1: yes north of 25th Avenue, no otherwise
B2: no
B3: no
B4: no
B6: no
B7: no
B8: no
B9: no
B11: no
B12: no
B13: no
B14: no
B15: yes, but not the part to JFK Airport
B16: no
B17: no
B20: no
B23: yes
B24: yes
B25: yes
B26: yes
B31: no
B35: yes
B36: yes, but not all the way east
B37: yes
B38: yes
B41: yes
B42: yes
B43: yes
B44: yes
B45: yes
B46: yes
B47: Yes north of St. John's Place, no south of it
B48: yes
B49: yes, but not to Manhattan Beach
B51: no
B52: yes
B54: yes
B57: yes
B60: yes
B61: yes
B63: yes
B64: don't remember
B65: yes
B67: yes
B68: yes
B69: yes
B70: don't remember
B71: don't remember
B74: yes, sort of
B75: yes
B77: yes
B82: no
B83: no
B100: no
B103: no
Note that this list is very very sketchy. I will consult my archives for more detail and Bronx and Staten Island.
Don't ask me about Queens, sorry.
The current M106 is of late 90's vintage, having replaced the M19 designation. Of course, the M19 used to have two branches, one of which became the M96 in the late 80's or early 90's, at the same time as the M18 became the M86.
The current M18 is a minor modification of what used to be the Convent Avenue routing for the M3. In the 80's all M3's began running via St. Nicholas, and it wasn't for a number of years that the Convent routing returned, with a different number and with infrequent service. At first, I think, the (new) M18 otherwise ran exactly like the M3, but that was changed in the late 90's.
??
Michael
Washington, DC
It was probably the REAR of the train that was blocking an intersection, the train was probably a little longer that the crew allowed for, and so were unaware that they failed to clear the intersection. The probably tied up as close to the next one as they could have done without blocking that one. But what the heck, there are other crossings in town.
We have three crossings in our town, the outer two exactly one mile apart. Yes there are trains longer than that one mile, but the crews know how long their trains are (more or less) and where they have to stop so as not to foul all three crossings.
If train A gets flagged by the wheel detector, he is supposed to keep moving east until he clears Highway 8. Even if he should fail to clear HWY 8, he will have surely cleared B Street. The Following train B, knowing that A went down, will stop west of the unnamed dirt road at the west end of town. Indeed, I have sat there and shot the breeze with the crew while the train ahead of them did a walkdown.
That walkdown takes quite some time, since the engineer remains with the locomotive, it is the conductor who must climb down and walk a mile out on one side and a mile back on the other. By then, the hot axel will surely have cooled off, and he will never find it anyway.
Elias
PS you would not stop in our town to eat no matter how hungry you were.
Yes, then each crewman only walks a half mile. But that is not going to happen, BNSF does not care how far a conductor must walk, or how long it takes. All trains on this line are extra, there are no timetable trains.
Elias
Anyway, having a man in back does save a great deal of time, however riding back there leads to injury and death. It's a tradeoff.
And I figured you monks were good cooks... after all, you're all as round as Friar Tuck, right? :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Some of us are not so plump, but others are. We seldom do our own cooking, we hire people for that, but our refectory is not open to the public like that, and we are too far from the tracks in any event.
Actually there is a cafe in town, and it does serve nice meals. The crew *could* stop west of B Street and only be blocking the unnamed dirt road. Still why do that when there are dozens of nice places in Dickinson, which *used* to be a crew break point. They can *still* tie up there for burgers, but the boss would be watching.
Elias
If the axle had been really hot, it's possible to find it after it have
cooled off. You have to look carefully at the wheel. If it haves a
different colour and/or is very oily. Voila!
lol
Rush hour trains delayed as Train Operator leaves train to get Breakfast
Elias
Peace,
ANDEE
GOOD LUCK!
Recently in one NYCT facility a feral cat lost her tail and was badly burned when the tail touched a 3rd rail while the cat crossed the tracks. Many people in the facility donated to get the animal treated and then one adopted it.
Fortunately, there are some 'rescue' groups that try to help these poor creatures and their sad circumstances.
We volunteer at the local SPCA here, and see how much more is needed. There are just not enough funds or people to take care of all of the stray cats and dogs that are around today. Prospective homes for these strays are few and far between, and as a result the euthanization rate is very high. Many people will adopt kittens or puppies, and then will turn around and dump them off in another neighborhood or bring them back in a few months, simply because they "grew up".
Two months ago a local resident brought a nursing mother cat and a number of tiny kittens to our local animal shelter. Poor handling by one of the full time staff resulted in the mother cat escaping while being transferred from the car to the shelter. She ran into the woods next to the shelter. Efforts to trap the mother cat for over a week failed.
No amount of care and nursing to the tiny kittens could save them without the mother cat's care, and they did not survive.
It turned out that a local resident's good intentions resulted in death for all of the kittens.
Would just like to know, have there been any talks of extending any of the PATH lines, on the New Jersey or Manhattan side? furthermore would they even allow extensions on the Manhattan side?
There was talk of extending PATH to Newark Airport but we all know how taht turned out.
PATH will never expanded within NYC. The MTA would never allow it.
Besides where would PATH go to in NYC that isn't covered some way by the subway?
PATH is not interested in, nor chartered to be, an extension of the subway system. It is a TRANS HUDSON Service, serving the ports of New York and New Jersey.
Could another PATH lion be brought into Manhattan? Yes, why not. But that is all that it will do is arrive at some transportation hub in Manhattan, it will provide service to and from New Jersey.
OK what *is* possible?
Just a quick, off the top of my head sketch, it's primary service is to use the parking facilities at the Meadowlands as a great Park-N-Ride center with additional access at Seacaucus and Union City, with destinations at 8th Avenue and Park Avenue on 57th Street in NYC.
OK, so it is not contigious with existing the PATH system. So What? All I have demonstrate is a possibility for a new service operated by PATH. It is in keeping with the goals that I have mentioned, and it will become a most valuable link when I achieve my plot of closing the Lincon Tunnel to all but busses during the rush hours.
: ) Elias
When its time comes that could be the preextension project, leave a provision at Union City if the PA for the possibility, if allowed, of coming into NYC via your route
Just a side thought tho, would NJTransit begin to react at that extension?
Theres a lot of areas a few years back we would have never concieved to become as crowded and popular to be. It starts with the light rail.
If PATH were to expand, the only place would probably be Newark Airport as it belongs to the PA, and it could follow the NJT tracks. Any other extension would be stretching a bit too far regarding funds and NIMBYs.
For right now the most Jersey City needs is an elevator at Grove Street Station.
The West side is and already being built up, a cross line on 34th would help and if the MTA is not going to do it, let someone else.
Buses can only do some much, they are at the mercy of crowded streets, traffic and bad weather, ie the snow we just had. Esp the M8 throught that area
The issue I see with the 9th Ave extension is not that a bus runs there already, but moreso potentially compromising the integrity of the old buildings, the density of the area already, and unless it went to 14th Street to connect with the 4 train, it seems pointless.
Actually there is already a crosstown line on 34th St - it is called the LIRR. All they would need to do is add a station or two.
If the MTA won't do it, no one else can. The underground right of way (under 34th St) by the MTA. Just like the MTA owns the ROW under Park Avenue for MNRR.
Elias
If the cost were not prohibitive, I would like a LIRR / Penn station on the east side, say at Third Avenue.
The 34th Street on the HBLR refers to Bayonne. It goes up to 56 (I think) there.
Arti
As for the Jersey side, time will tell that one.
The far West Side is NOT served by subway BTW
Until the last of these bonds mature or are fully called, PATH cannot expand.
And don't even think of adding to PATH's routes in NYC - the PA does not want to increase the per-passenger subsidy, so who would pay it?
Understood why add more to something thats loosing money, but maybe an extension could have turned it around.
Is the PATH making money now or still loosing?
Do you know or have an idea how long it will take those bonds to expire?
In fact when PATH went on strike one summer, they didn't even negotiate for several months as the PA was glad to save the money that were from NOT operating the system.
Because if they hadn't the H & M would have shut down (it was bankrupt) and no other operator wanted it.
"Is the PATH making money now or still loosing? "
PATH was losing money from the start.
The PATH is very heavily subsidized, but that is true of just about every transit system in the world.
The PA absolutely did not want to get involved in transit, so yet, it was part of the deal to get the WTC started, and it completely replaced their Hudson Terminal complex when the WTC site was moved from the East river, where it was originally proposed.
Only in the 1980s did the PA get more "enlightened", and used some of their tax-free bond financing to purchase NJT buses and NYC buses too for the MTA (the ones with 'PA' in the number).
Look at some of the cars, near the bottom it says: PORT OF NEW YORK AUTHORITY OWNER AND LESSOR
At a public meeting about the Newark Airport access in 1997/8, when PA officials were introducing the new monorail proposal, they also explained that they thought extending the PATH was not "feasible". I asked if the bonds outstanding prevented the extension and they said "yes".
Because to go down the NEC would involve big big bucks
Switching to another line would involve bigger bucks, especially a heavy freight line like the Lehigh. PATH has no trackage rights on the Lehigh Line, and the FRA specs of the current PATH cars are out of date.
Rest assured, though, that the PATH train would not use existing NEC tracks if indeed it ever gets extended to the EWR station, but use extensions of its own tracks (via a flyover south of South Street then a dedicated stretch of the former Waverly Yard). PATH has to date never shared tracks with Amtrak/NJT on a permanent basis (one exception that comes to mind was when NJT ran the Bergen Shore Express and used the now-gone Center Street Branch connector that crossed the PATH track—and this was not a case of PATH operating on NJT but the other way around, of course)…
AAA Anaa, French Polynesia
to
ZZV Zanesville, OH [Zanesville Municipal Airport], USA
with the least transfers.
Mark
From there it's only another 1 1/2 miles to the Newark Rail link station, a flyover or tunnel would have to be built to get the PATH over to the East side of the NEC.
The project would be much less than $500-750 million if it did not have to cross the NEC, $500 Million for a bridge/fly-over and $750 Million if they tunnel under the NEC.
It's actualy a project NY Politicians such as Mayor Bloomberg, Governor Pataki and Charles Gargano support.
It's also the easiest way to link Downtown to "an airport", something the big Downtown Firms are pushing hard to accomplish.
Build the tunnel!
Newsday link
http://www.nynewsday.com/news/local/transportation/nyc-nytunn093577129dec09,0,4838355.story?coll=nyc-topheadlines-left
Arti
BTW PATH capacity has a lot to do with NJ Transit's capacity to Manhattan.
Arti
Following that logic 63rd st tunnel has nothing to do with 53rd st tunnel. Anyway, care to substantiate your statement.
Arti
PATH cannot replace a new Hudsson tube, even if you expand it.
From the article:
About 340,000 riders arrive and depart from Penn Station daily on Amtrak, Long Island Rail Road and NJ Transit. That number is expected to grow to about 432,000 by 2010.
If you compare the numbers, it's not that far-fetched, PATH sseems like a good candidate for expansion.
Arti
I think that a NE corridor tunnel would benefit more people overall than a PATH tunnel.
Not according to PATH schedules, max is 25tph (not 40) to Midtown.
though the possibility of 10-car trains adds a little capacity.
Not little, but 20%.
I think that a NE corridor tunnel would benefit more people overall than a PATH tunnel.
Questionable.
Arti
Sean@Temple
Arti
I'm not talking about new tube for PATH, that would be a complete waste of money. What I'm saying, is that it looks like PATH has capacity to absorb projected ridership crossing the river.
Actually I don't understand the need for Secaucus transfer as it duplicates excisting service at significanlty lower quality levels compared to PATH.
Arti
Ridership in 2000 -- about 60,000 on Downtown PATH, 30,000 on Uptown Path, 40,000 on NJT direct to Penn.
(Actually I don't understand the need for Secaucus transfer as it duplicates excisting service at significanlty lower quality levels compared to PATH. )
PATH takes most NJT riders far out of their way, if they are going to Midtown. A transfer to where you are going is one thing, a transfer to a transfer with a roundabout route is anoter.
Unfortunately, NJT riders would be better served by a direct connection to Grand Central rather than Penn. The ARC study only considered a one-seat ride to GCT, which is impractical.
My preferred solution is a suburban super-connector from Secaucus Transfer, across to GCT via a new tunnel (stop in Times Square), down to Lower Manhattan as express tracks of the SAS, and out to Jamaica via the Atlantic Avenue Branch of the LIRR. With an easy connection, it would bring NJT riders to Grand Central and MetroNorth and LIRR riders to Lower Manhattan. The Airtrain could use it too.
Also unfortunately, people in NJ want improvements, but only if they can force people in New York to pay for them. Note the gas tax increase rejection announced today.
So PATH serves almost twice as many commuters, with the possibility to add 50% with minimal investment?
PATH takes most NJT riders far out of their way, if they are going to Midtown. A transfer to where you are going is one thing, a transfer to a transfer with a roundabout route is anoter.
According to schedules the difference is 4 - 10 minutes in favor of NJT for Main line passangers. Trip times from Hoboken via PATH and Secaucus via NJT are equal. Also PATH has more useful destinations possibly removing another transfer to MTA.
Unfortunately, NJT riders would be better served by a direct connection to Grand Central rather than Penn. The ARC study only considered a one-seat ride to GCT, which is impractical.
I'd agree with GCT option, as this could possibly save more than an hour a day for NJ to East Side commuters.
Arti
I think mobile homes would be the ultimate answer.
Arti
The New Economy made it much more likely that you will change jobs before you change housing. Corporations and Workers today have no loyalty to each toher, and will happily toss one another over when they have a chance. Its no longer possible to plan where you want to live around where you want to work, since you probably won't work there in 10 years. This is especially hard if you plan to raise a family.
(According to schedules the difference is 4 - 10 minutes in favor of NJT for Main line passangers. Trip times from Hoboken via PATH and Secaucus via NJT are equal. Also PATH has more useful destinations possibly removing another transfer to MTA.)
You mean to say a Midtown direct train from Secaucus takes only four more minutes than a train to Hoboken, followed by a trip back to Herald Square via PATH?
(Unfortunately, NJT riders would be better served by a direct connection to Grand Central rather than Penn. The ARC study only considered a one-seat ride to GCT, which is impractical.
I'd agree with GCT option, as this could possibly save more than an hour a day for NJ to East Side commuters. )
Wait a minute. If your prior point was correct, and going first to Hoboken and then back to 33rd Street via PATH takes about the same time as going direct to Penn, then this point requires a one-hour subway ride from Herald Square to Grand Central.
Yep, as currently scheduled.
http://www.njtransit.com/pdf/rail/current/r0020.pdf
Wait a minute. If your prior point was correct, and going first to Hoboken and then back to 33rd Street via PATH takes about the same time as going direct to Penn, then this point requires a one-hour subway ride from Herald Square to Grand Central.
1 hour roundtrip. Firstly the only direct connection to GCT is a bus. Subway is a 2 seat ride. Also, remember the discussion here regarding getting from Penn to GC in 15 minutes, what was deemed impossible.
Remember Secaucus to Penn (NJT) and Hoboken to Penn (PATH) take the same amount of time.
Arti
Right, but if you are coming from I-78 or north, you have to go from Secaucus to Hoboken first. That's what I mean, going south to go north, and switching twice.
Anyway, ARC features high cost terminal space at Penn, while the link direct to GCT, in addition to being hard to build, features taking terminal space away from MetroNorth at GCT, one reason New York fought it. Going into Manhattan from one direction and out the other features no new terminal space at all, saving big bucks. And the marginal cost of four tracks down Second Avenue vs. two (the middle tracks with no stations) is low low. Hence, my idea.
It would also add a suburban interest in seeing the lower half of the SAS built.
Once, either at Secaucus or Hoboken. I wouldn't suggest that NEC passangers would go via Hoboken.
Going into Manhattan from one direction and out the other features no new terminal space at all, saving big bucks. And the marginal cost of four tracks down Second Avenue vs. two (the middle tracks with no stations) is low low. Hence, my idea.
The major problem I see here, that there would be no agency that has real interest of building it.
It would also add a suburban interest in seeing the lower half of the SAS built.
I doubt that NJ interests will fly far in Albany.
Arti
Errmmm... why not call it the 7 train? It could do with a more spacious Western terminal than TSQ. Furthermore it is the one direction it can be extended in without overloading the trains AND it's deep enough.
down to Lower Manhattan as express tracks of the SAS
What express tracks? Isn't that what Downtown PATH is for?
and out to Jamaica via the Atlantic Avenue Branch of the LIRR.
Now there's a nice idea...
Unfortunately, NJT riders would be better served by a direct connection to Grand Central rather than Penn. The ARC study only considered a one-seat ride to GCT, which is impractical
Why is it impractical? They were proposing a short tunnel from NYP to GCT’s lower level. If NY could agree to help out NJ, from where 54 percent of its commuting trips come, such a tunnel could have been under construction already instead of simply being talked about.
My preferred solution is a suburban super-connector from Secaucus Transfer, across to GCT via a new tunnel (stop in Times Square), down to Lower Manhattan as express tracks of the SAS, and out to Jamaica via the Atlantic Avenue Branch of the LIRR. With an easy connection, it would bring NJT riders to Grand Central and MetroNorth and LIRR riders to Lower Manhattan. The Airtrain could use it too.
Your preferred solution costs more than Amtrak will ever see in ten years at its present level of funding. It makes the Access To The Region’s Core Alternative G seem like an utter bargain by contrast. Plus I see the continuing prejudice against NJ commuters—why direct access to Lower Manhattan for LIRR and Metro-North but not NJ Transit? If two-seat rides are good enough for NJT riders, they are certainly good enough for the patrons of the (erstwhile?) “MTA Railroad”…
(Your preferred solution costs more than Amtrak will ever see in ten years at its present level of funding.)
Not if you assume that Jamaica to Lower Manhattan, the Second Avenue Subway, and ARC will be built. In that case it saves money, because it adds no terminal space in Manhattan.
Arti
I honestly would prefer to be in your killfile, rather than read your meaningless responses
Two answers to that; you made the effort consciously, and res ipsa loquitur when it comes to “meaningless”. I think enough people on here told you that you were off-topic when it came to mentioning PATH and that PATH will never be expanded.
Arti
Elias
At 8:50 AM, at my home station, I just missed an N/B Q local train. So I waited what should be the next express train. Suddenly an announcement from Dekalb master tower briefly told customers that Manhattan bound trains will not stop at Newkirk Ave and they must go to either Avenue H or Kings Highway. I went to the opposite platform to see that a dog has wandered closely to the stopped < Q > train just outside the station. Police Officers were already at the scene and the ( Q ) from Avenue H also pulled up. Both trains sitting outside Newkirk, the dog hides under the platform and sits there, complicating the rescue efforts. After 10 minutes the < Q > is allowed a slow roll of about 5 MPH but is also ordered to bypass us. The ( Q ) is still sitting outside but 3rd rail cut off is also ordered. After another 10 minutes, the ( Q ) that was stranded is allowed to proceed and made the stop at Newkirk.
Sometimes things is the subway DO happen, however while on the train, a so-called friend of mine pissed me off during a normal conversation. She told the she wanted the dog walk onto the live 3rd rail and be electrocuted so they can remove the dead animal and she can be on her way to work. Some people are just self-centered and a bunch of jerks when is comes to animals, I myself am an animal lover so I almost cussed at her stupid remark.
Anyway, good job by NYCT for handling the dog incident (the trains stopped safely) and limiting the delay to about 20 minutes.
I doubt people would say that if it was a baby instead of a dog.
Imagine a baby instead of a dog. Funny how people are cynical when is comes to valuing human life.
I hope the dog was arrested for entering a non-public area... :-P
I'd arrest the dispatcher who knowingly ordered him to proceed down the tracks knowing a dog was loose on them.
The only thing I like as much as trains is dogs, so you can really understand how infuriated I was when that story broke.
I don't think the motorman was instructed to run over the dog. Being told to proceed is a lot different than being told to run over the dog. (By the way, the word is incident)
I realized the mistake after I posted it.
See here.
Oh My! back in the early 80's I counted about 30 between Lynbrook and Jamaica.
Elias
What happened was, there was a dog on the tracks along Central Park West. Service was suspended (more than once, if memory serves) while the dog was looked for, but every time the police and/or transit workers got close to it, the dog would go hide somewhere (emergency exits, etc.). Ultimately, it was determined that the dog had gotten out of the tunnel, and the Train Operators were instructed to proceed. Unfortunately, the dog had NOT escaped, and it darted in front of a D train and was killed. The Train Operator was beside himself with grief. The media played the incident up (the Post posthumously named the dog "Token"), and starting that afternoon, I received several VERY nasty calls from people who professed to love animals but had no qualms about threatening to bomb 370 Jay Street and kill everybody in it.
David
For example: "I like Chris Rivera's photographs."
: )
Mark
That's atrophy; apostraphe is when you talk to inanimate object's.
Mark
Like some of the posters here?
ON TOPIC EXAMPLE:
It's a great day to ride an R-9, and enjoy its wonderful memories.
As used in this sentence, ITS is not a word.
Or February which has 28.
You also leave off the last S when buying sleep equipment over the phone.
To make plural nouns that end in s possessive, add only an ' (many boys' toys).
To make plural nouns not ending in s possessive, add an 's (men's toys).
There are exceptions to these rules!
Jimbo
There is an incredibly silly convention that that rule only applies if the word is two syllables or more. So:
St Barnabas' Church
St Thomas' Church
but
St James's Church
Needless to say, rules are meant to fit language, not language fit the rules. I, for one, don't (or dont) give a damn.
Cheers to that. Now let's get back to the trains.
Ho about those cool old IND pillar signs:
D'LANC'Y
N'RTH'N BLVD
Now how much extra space would it have been to add a "E" or "O" to those?
L. B. & S. C. RY
In case anyone's wondering - the London, Brighton and South Coast Railway.
Why?
Don't try to figure it out, it's impossible.
Works on contingency
No money down
Said with a certain amount of bitterness. I learned French (O-Level), Spanish (O-Level), Latin (O-Level), Modern Greek (in USA but at least to A-Level fluency). I could just not learn German.
Mark
How about "glo'al stop"?
Sorry, no offense, I'm just seeing how many of these suckers I can stick into my posts today, you made it too easy.
isn,t this cool. i,ve had lot,s of fun.
Poor old WESTCODE44 uses single quotation marks instead of double quotation marks to emphasize a few words, and the whole board goes into a rant on when to use an apostrophe.
What the hell does a single quotation mark have to do with an apostrophe?
'paper's,' 'lover's,' and 'action's' are the issues he're. Sir John Holme's needs to go back to school car to learn 'English.' :)
Should it be:
1) "Arnine," he said.
or
2) "Arnine", he said.
?
I was always taught (2) and I think (1) looks somewhat illogical and ugly, but I think this one is actually down to opinion - right?
"Arnine," he answered.
and
He answered, "Arnine."
Punctuation for the quoted clause is supposed to go inside the quotes.
If I only could.........
Ive been trying to get Karl (who lives in Gettysburg, which is not that far from Charm City) to visit BSM for the last couple of years.
He does drive down to Owings Mills every once in a while (to go to Orioles games), and BSM is just a quick hop down I-795 to the Beltway to the Jones Falls Expressway to get to the home of Baltimore's streetcars.
I think it is the case of "the road to hell is paved with good intentions".
I do really intend to get to BSM. I have wanted to get to BERA for many years as well, but unfortunately neither goal has been accomplished yet.
I'll get there, I promise.
(Just for the record, I haven't been able to get to Owings Mills or Camden Yards in almost 2 and a 1/2 years either.)
Campaign for real typography, coming to a web site near you!
I have like 20 computers that are RUINED because it says PRESS ANY KEY to continue and the keyboard doesn't have an any key!
It's a good thing that Windows XP has never crashed, otherwise I'd have to throw this computer away too (here it's 2003 and still no any key!)
The tilde and the caret are important characters.
That said, the tilde is an important modifier, especially for Spanish, where is a different letter from n. However, US (and UK) keyboards dont have any dead keys (where the key doesnt cause a glyph to appear, it modifies the next key typed, so allowing accented letters). And if a caret and a tilde, why not a grave, acute and umlaut? (The French can keep the cedilla.)
I believe the reason the keys are on current US keyboards is because they were on the old Teletype ASR/KSR keyboards, but why they were there is history I dont know.
Why is there a $ on a US keyboard, but not a ?
And, my favourite, British Keyboards have a , which is often above the 3, displacing the #, which Brits call a hash symbol, and Americans a pound?!
Disclaimer: some glyphs in this message use ASCII encodings with numbers >128, where there are multiple versions. If your system is not set to the same encoding, or you are viewing this on a Macintosh or a ****x system, you will different glyphs or nothing.
Some day we will all use Unicode.
What do US keyboards have where the hash sign should be then (ie in the last position of the middle line asdfghjkl;'#).
I guess it is - but it's a satisfyingly large key to hit.
At least we've stopped calling it the return key.
My favourite useless keys are { and } - the only reason you'd want that shape bracket would be to group things on several lines, so having a single line version is pointless. Also, quite why do I want a , ` or | key?
I guess the US is one step of ahead of the UK in not having that key.
It's shift ` (key left of the 1 key). Well done USA on not having it.
That's what ~ is for :-p
Ah - that makes sense. ~ on UK keyboards is shift #, which is where your enter key is.
What do you have as SHIFT-4?
That sounds familiar - one day at Uni I found a computer that did that. Most annoying trying to e-mail zzz199"le.ac.uk
What do you have as SHIFT-4?
$ - I presume you have the same.
On a standard US 101-Key keyboard, the numbers have
!@#$%^&*()
1234567890
| is used as logical OR in several programming languages.
was used as logical NOT in PL1, and only appeared on EBCDIC keyboards (IBM3270 terminal style). Why it hung around in Microsofts extended ASCII, I have no idea.
I still want to know which language uses .
(Dont get me started on APL!)
Pedant.
{} are bracesI agree that single-line verseions are useless. The symbol character sets used for mathematics have the components to make multi-line braces, which are the only useful ones AFAIK.
So and would be much more useful keys to have. I wonder if there's any way of reprogramming my computer to display when I type {.
| is used as logical OR in several programming languages.
I guess there's also some use in wanting to write |root 10|, if only there were a root key.
was used as logical NOT in PL1, and only appeared on EBCDIC keyboards (IBM3270 terminal style). Why it hung around in Microsofts extended ASCII, I have no idea.
Perfect location for the key...
I still want to know which language uses .
e olde nglish lngwge use e lettere orn.
It is remarkably stupid that US keyboards lack a symbol for a unit of their own nation's currency.
No, they can't. If you are referring to an amount in British money from before the Norman Conquest until 1971, 1/4d means something completely different from d.
This is a completely worthless feature in the US, and it seems almost completely worthless in the UK.
Use Character Map or ASCII codes to differentiate your farthings from your shillings and four pence.
No. Before Britain went 'off Gold' (I think) in the 1930's teachers' strike, a pound was worth its weight in Sterling Silver. Hence 'Pound Sterling'.
AEM7
That does not erase them from historical usage (nor Ceylon's irritating way of issuing farthings).
I liked the Panda joke.
http://www.economist.co.uk/world/europe/displayStory.cfm?story_id=2269440
I'm off to attend the Yahoo Serious Film Festival
Call out the rescue squad!
If it really was up to me, since both trains stopped safely, I would've jumped out and rescued the dog. Then again my butt would've been in the seven-o prison for trespassing. Great picture, really BRIGHTNING up my day.
This is what monks do in their spare time?
Me? non. Some one sent it in an email.
: ) Elias
He also climbed over the third rails from express track to express track, dripping with snow, but managed to get across safely. Everyone on the platform looked away, anticipating the obvious.
And it was longer than 10 minutes. More like 1/2 hour.
But my question is why they bypassed the station, northbound only. The dog was all over the place, but the southbound trains stopped. Why was the northbound ordered to not stop. Stopping and opening the doors so us poor working fools (OK, not so poor) could get to work wasn't going to hurt the dog any more northbound than southbound.
BTW, the dog got on a train at Cortelyou, got off at Newkirk. Did he pay his fare?
South end of N/B platform, funny how when a Q train partially pulls in, people quickly stand in front to board it. Knowing the C/R was next to me and not in his normal position (about 2 cars off), I told people to safely back away until the train was fully in the station. At 9:20, we boarded and left.
He obviously was under the MTA's height limit for free admission.
BTW, I heard the dog was later charged with fare evasion...;-)
It was better for me to walk away from an asshole than to start saying things like that because when I talk loud, I REALLY AM LOUD. And when someone pisses me off like that then I really say things that will make that B**** get off at Cortelyou Road (the next stop after the dog incident.)
I just hope the dog is in good hands now.
Sure, instead of running him down with a subway train they take him to the ASPCA and they put him down with a needle.
Keeps the press happy, but the raptors miss out on a meal.
Elias
www.SavetheG.org
Check it out
Does anyone have the rider numbers to prove/disprove this claim?
Website link: http://www.savetheg.org/
Incedentally, I had an idea for retiring the R38's when the first R160's come in. Take all the R46 A-A sets, and enough 4-car sets to match, and put them in Pitkin for use on the C line. Move some new R160's into Jamaica, and run them on the R, G, and V lines (supplimented by existing cars, of course).
No one rides the G? Bulls**t. I have to walk through a sea of people 10-deep to get to the G only if the G has arrived from 21 St - Van Alst while I'm walking through the passageway. Other times, the passageway is peaceful and empty.
But when you see all those people come up from the stairs and head towards you, get into single file.
David
Hoyt-Schermerhorn, evening rush. Always crowded. Not crushloads, but well into standing room.
David
However during off-peak hours, it's quite empty.
Sorry for making it seem more serious than it really is. But I do have to say that the four-car trains cannot handle the rush hour crowds very well.
David
wayne
What we're actually going to see is an increase in whining and complaining from people who move to an area that ALREADY supposedly has poor transit. Let me see...if I was one of those people, would I want to move to an area that has "second class" subway service, or would I want to move to an area that has BETTER service? DUH!
I think Larry would be quite insulted by that one...
http://www.culvershuttle.com/
: )
Mark
If only they had RFWs!
Actually, my heart did skip a beat when I saw this headline, because just last week I had seen on the news that Italy was bracing for a terrorist attack, and they showed film footage of the Rome subway. I was afraid something did happen there.
Anyway, The trains do look just like NY in the 70's. In fact, many cities subway's look like that now. Berlin is another, and I think Munich also. They are covered from one end to the other. I have seen a book not so long ago that many of these European cities actually look to NY to see how to deal with the epidemic.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
How does he get around the 50 post limit??????????
I think he was more or less expressing the same sentiment as I was. Hey I'm as guilty as anyone for off topic posts, but at least I try to put some thought behind them.
Hope you're well and getting ready for a great holiday season.
Peace,
ANDEE
Using all caps to make us think something major happened in Rome is misleading and then to tell us Fred was named patron saint is nonsensical. And you may want to take a moment to think that you could possible offend some people by bring the Pope into it. He is a world leader respected by many.
The only sense in which the Vatican could not be considered part of Rome is in the sense that it is theoretically some sort of remainder of the Papal States. In fact it could be viewed that the Vatican City IS Rome and the Italian part is merely a foreign suburb.
Anyway, he's Bishop of Rome, so isn't that good enough?
Please, if you want to have a personal post for a member of you minority club of people who subscribe to your brand of humor, at least have the decency to have an 'Attn: CC Local Fans-' prefix on the post, a j/k suffix to the thread title, or better yet, send it in an e-mail. Please don't raise the collective subtalk blood pressure nor encourage Adult Diaper futures to rise a few points for no reason, it's bad enough when they do so for semi-legitimate reasons.
CC Local's garbage post does not meet this criteria at all.
Save the BREAKING NEWS stuff when something really happens in the world.
Save the BREAKING NEWS stuff when something really happens in the world.
Them is the rules.
Fred ain't dead - he's still posting.
Dave's SubTalk Rule #1 : Dead people can't have handles. Allowing dead people to have handles and post would increase the post totals to infinate levels and cost Dave a bunch o' bucks to keep adding servers to handle the load.
Only Dave's trusted friends know about it.
Is there any trace left of the underpasses or the portals to the street? Is there any trace at all that the station existed? I know the station itself was constructed of wood so there's no trace at track level.
wayne
I once crawled through the White Pot Underjump, late March 1986. It was quite a feeling of almost dangerous freedom to emerge from it, leaving behind an abandoned right of way, and entering onto an active and extremely busy one, fast trains, live third rails and all.
In the late 80's I also frequently hiked across the Rockaway Line at about Dartmouth Street, as a shortcut to the Rego Park "crescents" from the Forest Hills street grid.
I will patiently await the answer of an "old timey" expert.
Staten Island Borough President
James P. Molinaro invites you
to learn more about the Study's findings at
PUBLIC PRESENTATION
Tuesday, December 9, 2003
The Jury Room
Staten Island Court House
126 Stuyvesant Place
Staten Island, NY 10301
(across from staten Island Borough Hall)
6pm - 8pm
North Shore Railroad Right-of-Way
Feasibility Study funded by
The Port Authority of NY & NJ
Prime Consultant - URS Corporation
--------------------------------
Sorry for the short notice - I kept forgetting to post the notice.
Whoa. Where do they come into this? They'd be the last people to be involved, IMO.
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
I've been hearing that for years. Apparently, URS's findings indicate light rail is feasible for the ROW. Unfortunately, the Advance doesn't seem to have covered the meeting :(.
Can you summarize? :)
SI LIGHT RAIL WOULD EASE COMMUTE
Nearly 16,000 passengers a day could use a renovated Staten Island rail line by 2015, a Port Authority study said.
The study, financed by the PA of NY and NJ, found that a light rail system, similar to that used on the Hudson-Bergen line in New Jersey, would work best for the 5.1-mile north shore line, which has been defunct since 1953.
Molinaro [note -- article did not give his first name or title - he's the boro pres.] said no property would have to be bought or condemned for the project, which would reduce a 40-minute commute to the St. George ferry terminal to 13 or 14 minutes.
The Port Authority scheduled a public hearing on the issue last night.
If they are going to keep extending the HBLR, might as well make it one whole line over to the SI Ferry and Stadium.
Side thoughts, hope the MTA doesnt jump last minute and block it
This was in today's SI Advance - http://www.silive.com/news/advance/index.ssf?/base/news/107098207450460.xml
Mark
I say heavy rail for the North Shore line. Even though it would cost much more to operate, it would have the chance of expanding onto existing tracks with existing services, say, the M&E line to Summit?
That doesn't seem feasible. What good is a local stop-oriented rail transit line if a large percentage of its ROW is in woods? That's what highways are for: to ruin the woods. LRT is for medium density mixed residential/commercial/industrial areas. The North Shore line is basically all that, if a little faded at the edges. And nobody want to see a train on a parkway, sorry.
I see some merit in the heavy-rail aspect of the branch. The interstate travel opportunity is worthy of consideration. Of course, that begs the question: Exactly how many people start or end their NJ/Staten Island trips in NJ or Staten Island? I'd bet the majority are coming and going from different areas. So that's why a Staten Island-centric transit solution via LRT is a better match. In My Humble Opinion, of course.
Great idea, except you posted that an hour and 39 minutes after the meeting started :)
R-32.
Format C: will reformat your hard drive, completely obliterating everything that currently resides there.
And at least with cough*fdisk*cough, it takes a little work to manipulate it to totally screw yourself.
Not unless you assert that you really want it to.
WARNING, ALL DATA ON NON-REMOVABLE DISK
DRIVE C: WILL BE LOST!
Proceed with Format (Y/N)?
completely obliterating everything that currently resides there.
It is possible to recover the data from most formatted drives. PC World recently ran an article about sensitive files unearthed from used HDDs.
Or to put it in modern terms: PROFESSIONAL DRIVER ON CLOSED COURSE. DO NOT ATTEMPT. :)
The drive of the vehicle is PAID to do it!!!!
Closed course means that the production co. paid the local cops to close off the road used for filming.
It's there for the dumb-dumbs in the world, for which there is an unlimited supply.
In the "crashing on the rocks" scene the caption says something like "Lifeless Dummy on Closed Course. Do not attempt."
Since the cutting makes it look realistically like he's getting up from the crash, I'm glad they put that disclaimer.
BTW, since I don't remember the product, I guess it wasn't that good an ad.
Dumb-dumbs, otherwise known as the triumvirate of skylarkers (who sadly, are not buried next to each other with gravestones Larry, Moe, and Curly!)
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
Real Drive-thru PAs are unintelligible!
You mustn't have been around all that much, then. "Press ctrl-alt-del for access to secret files" was around way back in the days of BBSes.
Further, while I'm not about to test this for obvious reasons, I don't believe FORMAT C: will have all that much effect on anyone who isn't running DOS or Win 9X/ME. Win2K and XP won't allow the user to format the boot drive while the system is running.
This is a Bowling Green bound 5 express train. The next stop is, 86th street.
is 2 seconds longer than
This is a brooklyn bound 4 express train. The next stop is, 86th street.
R-32.
Which is worse, a mechanical failure that's essentially contained in the undercarriage/truck area of the car, or a structural failure that involves the car body itself?
When looking at the longevity of a particular car class, you have to look at factors other than performance as well. Take the R-32 vs the R-38 for example. What will the relatice cost be to maintain each car to 50 years of service? Perhaps the 32s have greater structural integrity and will require less significant investment per car to maintain them to age 50. Then there is the size of the fleet, itself. A fleet of 594 R-32s would be more desireable than a fleet of just 196 R-38s. As the fleets age and cars are de-commisioned, the smaller fleet decreases in flexibility and thus in its usefulness.
:-) Andrew
(2) When they installed them, did they do it at both ends or just one?
(3) Is there any way to identify them without looking for them on the trucks?
Robert
Can anyone tell me a decent route to get there by subway? I see on Mapquest that the closest major street to the place is Myrtle Avenue but I'm about 34 years too late to take the El. Broadway looks like its too far away so I don't know if the J/M/Z is an option.
My starting point is Fulton Street downtown. I have access to the 2/3/4/5/J/M/Z/A/C trains. Can anyone suggest a route?
Thanks.
That's what the B57 bus route, which runs along the entire length of Flushing Ave, is for. Exiting the station is the SW corner of Marcy Housing Projects, I wouldn't advise that.
Take R train to 36th st or Pacific then switch to M train into Manhattan and over Williamsburg Bridge to Seneca Ave. If the school is too far away from the M train stop, use the B38 bus. It runs along Seneca Ave.
I would use this method but instead of using the B38 bus, use a bicycle (www.Dahon.com) and ride along Seneca Avenue.
I wish NYCT was more vigil in their horrible G.O.'s in giving decent directions. Want a laugh? If you are at 14th st-Union Square this weekend (no L service in Manhattan and most of Brooklyn) they tell you to take the M14 bus to Delancey St (only the M14A not the M14C/D) when the 6, Q, R, and W trains can take you to Canal Stret for the J/M.
It's a good thing no one pays attention to GO posters, and doesn't read them. :)
Here's a capsule for other BusTalk readers. Basically, the M&Q was an independent trolley line operating from 59th and 2nd Avenue (the underground station) out Queen Boulevard to South Jamaica. A substantial portion operated on private right-of-way along Queens Boulevard, including right under the Flushing IRT. The IND Jamaica Line subway was built and on April 15, 1937, the M&Q cars were replaced by the M&Q Bus Company (this route was designated Q60-Queens Boulevard at that time, the same as today), which had been incorporated in 1935 in anticipation of the conversion. The M&Q Bus was absorbed by Green Bus Lines in 1947. Had the line received modern streetcar equipment before its conversion (the PCC had successfully operated for about a year in nearby Brooklyn), it might have lasted far longer. It was a viable trolley line, even with the subway underneath for about half its distance, and the poor, irregular bus service provided today is "second to none."
The following three routes were operated by the New York & Queens County Railway; today the replacement bus lines are served by Queens Surface. The Q65 was College Point / Flushing / Jamaica route, and today its route is almost exactly the same as in trolley days, except it doesn't use the two private rights-of-way it had in Jamaica. Q66-Northern Boulevard ran from the large carhouse at 51st Street and Northern Boulevard (parts of its beautiful brick facade have been thankfully preserved) down Northern, then along Main Street in Flushing, southeast on Kissena Boulevard and east on Sanford Avenue terminating at Parsons Boulevard. Its bus route today is again quite similar, but it ends in downtown Flushing. The Q67-Borden Avenue was known as the Calvary Line; it started at Borden Avenue and 2nd Street and terminated at 69th Street and Metropolitan Avenue. Most of its right-of-way is today the Long Island Expressway.
Steinway Lines was originally part of the NY&QC Railway, but was spun off after a 1922 bankruptcy. Most of the current ex-Steinway (now Queens Surface) routes were originally trolley lines. The last SL route was Steinway Street, converted to bus operation in 1939. On the very last day, brand new 650-series Third Avenue Railway System streetcars were used on Steinway Street. This was to train the motormen in their use for the Queensboro Bridge Railway; these new units operated for about a six-month period on the QBR while the older ex-Manhattan 3-Cent Railway 500-series cars were refurbished in the TARS shops. In 1949, the QBR purchased more modern cars from the New Bedford, Massachusetts system. These were used until QBR service ceased on April 4, 1957. It is interesting to note that some of the ex-New Bedford cars operated in those city's colors until the now familiar orange and cream paint scheme was applied to them. One of the QBR cars "survives," but in wretched condition, at the Trolley Museum of New York in Kingson, New York.
Noted traction author Vincent Seyfried published a very limited edition book on the NY&Q/SL in 1950. It is extremely difficult to find but pops up from time-to-time on eBay. As I write this, I'm currently revising this original book into a much larger, 200+ page edition, with hundreds of photos discovered in the ensuing years. I hope to release it in a year or two. Only small articles - never a full-size book - have been printed on the M&Q. However, Mr. Seyfried has completed a new manuscript on this line, and hopefully we'll be able to publish this also.
M&QT Co. had a maintenance facility on Queens Blvd., the present site of Aviation H.S.
BTW, you can order a Pizza in the old NY&QC "Waiting Room".
"... The M&Q Bus was absorbed by Green Bus Lines in 1947 ..."
I thought the Cooper group got that route earlier, but I didn't look up the facts, so maybe it's just my aging brain cells.
"... Steinway Lines was originally part of the NY&QC Railway, but was spun off after a 1922 bankruptcy ..."
It's interesting that Salzberg put the company back togather when he purchased them in the 30s.
"... Noted traction author Vincent Seyfried published a very limited edition book on the NY&Q/SL in 1950. It is extremely difficult to find ..."
The Hempstead Library has copies of all of them, you can reserve them, i.e. you ask to have them pulled out for you to look at, in the library only.
There has been a persistent rumor which keeps surfacing when talking to senior traction fans that persists: sometime in early 1937, a BQT PCC was tested on the NY&Q route from Jamaica to the underground Manhattan terminal, and when it returned it was tested on the M&Q again to the same Manhattan terminal. This might have been possible because of the physical tracks connections between the BQT, JCR and NY&Q at 160th and Jamaica. However, since the JCR had been dewired by 1936, the car would have had to have been pushed by a motor vehicle along the abandoned JCR tracks for a short distance to make the PCC face west. However, the trip over the M&Q was westbound only. In order to face the car correctly for its return trip to Brooklyn, it had to return back to Jamaica on the NY&Q. Someday, perhaps, Ill find photographic evidence of this purported journey.....
.....Just as I finally found evidence of brand new Third Avenue Railway System cars operating on the last day along Steinway Street. Mr. Seyfried, author of the NY&Q/SL book, stated this fact in his original book but never had personally seen a photo of these cars operating on Steinway. Thus it was always just an unverified rumor. However, about eight years ago, I inherited a negative collection which had two excellent photos of TARS car 654 on Steinway, one at the 19th Avenue terminal, the other crossing the Grand Central Parkway. When shown to Mr. Seyfried, I thought hed have a heart attack! It took almost 50 years to see photographic evidence of this event, so who knows what may show up in the future......
One additional physical aspect of NY&Q operation remains - the trolley wire troughs, and some ears, underneath the Long Island Rail Road along Main Street in Flushing. Theyre in remarkably good shape, basically protected from the weather. The troughs and ears appear to have been painted on a regular basis.
With Salzberg's intent to buy Brilliners (PCC look-a-likes), it would make perfect since for him to want to test a car like that on his line.
I have a question though, in refering to the Q67 Borden Avenue
Bus Route. Was it the Calvary Line or the Lutheran Cemetery Line?
BQT operated the Calvary Cemetery Line from the foot of Greenpoint
Avenue in Brooklyn to Calvary Cemetery, Long Island City till 1929(?).
:>) ~ Sparky
I am very fortunate to have an actual original roll sign from one of the NY&Q trolleys and there are quite a number of interesting destinations on it..... But I am more indebted to Mr. Vincent Seyfried, who has spent countless hours with me preparing this book and sharing his treasure chest of information about New York metropolitan area trolley and railroad operations. He's 85 and still very active. God bless him!
One last thing about the Manhattan and Queens. The southern end of the line ended at 109th Avenue and 157th Street in South Jamaica, just west of the Long Island Rail Road tracks. However, track had been laid on the other side of 109th Avenue for an extension. The line, however, was never extended past the LIRR. Mr. Seyfried had always heard of this track existing, and one day he rode his bicycle to that area (something surely no one would do today in this dangerous neighborhood) from his house in Hollis. He didn't see any tracks but brought a broom with him (109th Avenue was a dirt road) and swept the area until tracks were revealed and photographed. Now that's diehard research!
I've ridden behind it a number of times, and Jersey Mike has seen it sitting outside the engine house.
August, 1986
August, 1998
August, 1998
I've got Railroad Tycoon II and it's more fun to stand behind the controller of a 1902 Brill open car and feel the wind and hear the gear growl.
Sit on the right hand seatbox and pull the throttle. You've got the power and are master of the train.
All small children love trains, all you have to do is nurture it.
This one certainly does!
Winslow Jct 1985, man those Position Light masts were something. I still remember all the wasps nests in those things.
Anyway, you seem to have gotten off to a good start indoctrinating your grandkid into being a railfan. Too bad you weren't as successful with your normal kids.
Here's a tip...limit the supply of picture books at your house to Railroad picture books. He'll have no choice but you get interested.
Damn right - unless I get on at a terminus, I can never get any of the 4 RFW seats on the DLR.
August, 1997
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I guess the Pine Creek Railroad couldn't use a two-footer.
IIRC it was brought to the fairgrounds on a trailer. It had been fired up before leaving home, so the boiler was hot, and the level of water had not been checked properly. When it was brought down off the trailer and then continued down a slope the crown sheet was exposed, triggering the explosion.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Peace,
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
CG
R-32.
Mark
Currently, based on my transit photo library, the vast majority of the shots will be of DC Metro, being the system I've photographed the most. That will be highly organized by topic. I will also be showing off pictures of "The T" in Pittsburgh, and also Harrisonburg Transit.
Believe it or not, I've never ridden the granddaddy of all transit systems, the New York Subway, though I do have a few New York pictures that my sister and mother took on two recent trips up there.
So in announcing this, I'm interested to know... what do you want to see in this site? Location-wise, I'm based out of Stuarts Draft, Virginia, which is marked on this map. To give you an idea of driving time, DC is accessible from I-81 to I-66, and approximately two and a half hours away. So by all means, let me know if there are any transit systems that you really want to see, rail or bus.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
For reference, I am located west of Charlottesville, near the "Waynesboro" dot, and DC is 2.5 hours away by car.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Ben F. Schumin :-)
I'll remember your birthday if you remember my 70th in 2052.
OK, maybe even if you don't.
I'm not sure how sharp my memory will be when I'm 116!
I'd like to wish everyone a Merry Christmas, Happy Chanukah, Kwazy Kwanzaa, a tip-top Tet, and a solemn and dignified Ramadan.
You forgot Festive Winter Solstice.
--Mark
They forgot my favorite holiday, Ground Hog Day.
Some other recent special days :
December 6th (1969): Altamont
December 7th (1941) : Pearl Harbor
December 8th : Feast of the Immaculate Conception
(1943) Jim Morrison's birthday
(1980) John Lennon's death day (December 9th in UK)
(Number nine, number nine, number nine ...)
Anyone know Beethoven's birthday ? Around the 12th or 13th of December ?
Yes, it is true. I was visitin a convent in Bismarck last year at this time, and it was part of their readings at morning prayer.
Elias
Later it was decide that the ancient calendars had shfted out of joint somewhat, and the solestes was moved up to the 21st.
You can see the relationship beteen the birth of light and the victory of the sun, and the birth of the son and the victory of light over darkness.
Many Christian feasts were designed to co-opt pagan feasts.
Elias
"Many Christian feasts were designed to co-opt pagan feasts."
In the case of Christmas, I think the pagan feast has mostly co-opted the Christian feast.
No it's not, it is an act of not having any faith.
Faith is belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. Belief is in a god or gods is faith.
By your logic, it is also faith that causes me to believe the world is round.
Religion, religious belief and faith have been the hallmark of the human race since the beginning of recorded time. That events and time can even be recorded is yet another hallmark of humanity. It is unseemly to me that someone should distain the greetings of grace that one offers to another. Not everybody is of the same faith, yet all hold to a faith. Even those who would distain the existence of God nonetheless have gods of their own: be it money, power, or sex.
The human brain is one of the most fascinating creations on this planet, yet only half of it is used for what we call higher functions. The other part enamors itself with rhythm, music, art and poetry. It is the seat of emotions and yes, probably of true religion (as opposed to the cerebral, legalistic kind found in the intellectual part of the brain, which according to me is not really religion at all.)
This is why certain sights, sounds and emotions evoke such powerful feelings in individuals. To keep on topic, (of course) this is exactly the reason why the Redbirds evoke such powerful feelings in the hearts of railfans. It is the associations with the deep inner self that drives these emotions. Even more so for the Arnines these had an aroma and a song all of their own, and for those of us old enough to remember them, they access an insight to the soul second only to that of the souls own creator.
In the United States, the first amendment to the constitution states that government will not make any laws respective to religion, and that all shall enjoy freedom in their religious beliefs. It does not say anything about freedom from religion, which is as I have posited, probably not possible anyway. The highly vaunted notion of Separation of Church and State is NOT part of the US constitution: it is a campaign slogan first used by Thomas Jefferson, and has no more force than any such campaign slogan used by Bill Clinton or George Bush. And it has nothing to do with a tree or a candle stick on government property.
But I will tell you what Separation of Church and State is all about, since you apparently need instruction on this issue. When our constitution was written, the Old World European model was still seared on our collective minds and hearts, a corrupt system that stifled expression, as it was meant to do. It was a time when Church and State were intertwined to the determent of both: Kings insisted on appointing Bishops and Abbots, and Kings themselves were crowned by the Pope. Church courts vied with Royal courts for jurisdiction. It was a time when the king could dictate to the people what church to follow. It was a time when the church could hold inquisitions and deliver corporal punishments.
Faith, and religion are universal among humankind, and there is a certain unity in this that transcends the diversity of the various beliefs. To my way of thinking, it is this faith (whatever faith that may be) that ennobles the soul and makes a person human, instead of say cat or dog, or perhaps a monkey. It does not matter that you are Christian, and another is Jewish or Islamic. It does not matter if one is Buddhist or Hindu, what matters it that a person is ennobled and enervated by the spirit of his god. That each person recognizes the living godhead in the life of another.
When a good wish is offered in the name of faith, of religion, all that is needed is a thank you. And if this does not commend itself to you, then no comment at all is needed. No harm is meant to you by wishing someone else a happy Hanukkah. It is enough that it means something to the person who offered the greeting, and to the person who received it. According to me, the Happy Holidays has become a sterile meaningless Wal*Mart fest that degrades the true faith of everybody.
And so I offer you the Feast of St. Redbird, May your home signals always be clear, May your doors always close, and May your train always bring you safely to the terminal on time.
Elias
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Agreed, especially given that your holiday around this time of year and my holiday around this time of year have very different meanings.
Many thanks.
Hainault
Inquiring minds want to know!
Sorry, couldnt resist!
I always was amused by Theydon Bois (pronounced boys) since it was clearly a corruption of the French (pronounced bwas). I had had the same discussion about pronunciation over reservoir, with my grandmother and my father.
I pronounce Chesham with the h, as I first encountered the name at Kings College London, where The Chesham (formerly an hotel), on Surrey Street, housed the Student Union, before the MacAdam building was constructed.
PS- The porters at Mary-le- bone used to say "Kings Crss for Scotland : Marry-bun for Sudbury and Harrow Road !" I dont think so: I would bet money on arrow Road!
No-one can agree on how Marylebone is pronounced. It increasingly seems to be "Marleybone" these days.
"The train now standing at the far end of platform 4 is the 2210 to Birmingham Snow Hill; calling at Denham, Denham Golf Club, Gerrard's Cross, Seer Green & Jordans, Beaconsfield, High Wycombe, Princes Risbrough, Haddenham & Thame Parkway, Bicester North, Banbury, Leamington Spa, Warwick, Warwick Parkway, Dorridge, Solihull, and Birmingham Snow Hill, arriving Birmingham Snow Hill at 0034."
But would that be a fast Amersham? That's the question!
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.5 Now Available!
Probably, just to confuse everyone, it's rush hour and suddenly he's Hainault via Woodford, running late and actually terminating at Grange Hill, a fact announced just after Leytonstone.
Just reading this thread reminded me that I had meant to take my late father on the 6 train around the loop because he had never seen it despite living in NYC for years upon end (passed away this year)…Well, guess I cannot fret about lost opportunities. :-(
Big diff b/w City Hall and the Franklin shuttle.
I like to be sitting in the fourth car from the front, but if you want, take everyone else's advice and sit in the last car. For the best view, though, open up the doors between cars and peek out through there. The lights from the R-142A's which run on the (6) are so bright, that it's hard to see out into the mostly darkened station. So peeking out between cars is your best bet.
Normally, nobody will bother you if you try to ride the loop. But if a TA employee asks you to get off, or asks you what you're doing, just be nice and tell them that you're from out of town, and would like to ride the loop and see the City Hall station. Chances are they'll let you stay on. If you're REALLY afraid of getting in trouble, you can ask the conductor before you get to Brooklyn Bridge if he'll let you stay on and ride the loop. From what Subtalkers have posted here, it seems most of the time the C/R will be nice and let you stay on.
Spotted him today at around 3:50 PM.
Is this anyone here from SubTalk or BusTalk or possibly from somewhere else?
If train X leaves Brighton Beach at 7 o'clock and idiot Y leaps onto track at Kings Highway at 7:05 how late will the unlucky commuters be to get to work?
A)5 minutes
B)10 minutes
C)15 minutes
D)you're still on time, by NYCT's standards for lateness
E)an hour, half of which was spent by the crew trying to raise the tower to report the 12-9
Koi
If the story began at Newkirk, then the question would make sense.
Koi
I told you not to worry about tickets; I'll vouch for your character.
(He's a character).
Bob
Chuck Greene
Speaking of "Derailed", what causes more derailments?:
A) Poor track?
B) Defective Rolling Stock?
C) Operator error?
D) Tower Error?
E) Other?
AEM7
My understanding is that you get called by your number. However, would all people on the promo list necesarily get a higher number than those on the OC? I know that you get extra points for previously working at the MTA, and also if you are a veteran. But what if lots of promo people just barely passed it, with a raw score of 80-83? Even with the additional points, can they surpass my raw score of 97 and also compete with the fact that I filed on the very first day?
Sorry if some feel like I am beating this topic to death, but I really am curious about 'loopholes' that may get me called earlier than 2-3 years from now. -Nick
They got your money, it was a good dry run for the c/r test so deal with it.
Promotional Test are weighted towards the agency your work for. You can sit on a promo list if your agency isn't calling. This is a mute fact since the title we are talking about here is for a single agency unlike say the title of Computer Specialists, Operations.
Did they become provisional even though they were forced into the titles?
My partner a few nights ago was a bus maintainers helper for 10+ years, they decided to do away with his and some other jobs and sent them to RTO as a c/r. After a year or so they realized they needed them all back but he stayed and went to T/O. I assume they at least started him at full pay.
I was just curious about what happens in those cases or like provisonal in the TA. Like if a c/r takes a provisional to t/o does he keep his c/r seniorty if he stays proviosnal more than a year? For a promotional after one year you lose your seniority rights.
You had the option so that is the proper way, they were told if you want to have a job on Monday report to school car. I thought being forced to move might catch you a break.
Mark
Regards,
Jimmy
I don't think the R26 or R28 had drop-sash storm door windows (but their side windows were once drop-sash). Should have spent more time on the Mainline.
But all the others did not.
If you were on Train Dude's friend list, he would have e-mailed the shot to you.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Even if you want to run them, you can still make it work. A 2-track subway line can be built on a shelf no more than 8" wide. There are also track systems that can be suspended from ceilings. Where there's a will (& some $$$$) there's a way.
#3 West End Jeff
I'll bet the re-scheduled Red Bird trip won't be the last AND R-17 6688 will be treating many railfans for years & years to come AND R-16 6398 is alive & well too !
#3 West End Jeff
Here's hoping that the economy turns around, that the MOD trips and other fan trips continue PAST 2004 and all of the historical classics get to run every now and then just to keep them from rusting up and rotting away. Sure there's wear and tear, but much like classic cars, sitting and rotting without running seems to be even more damaging to them in the end run than letting them out to "stretch their legs" every now and then ...
#3 West End Jeff
--Mark
--Mark
Dave
Yes they are but every model railroader has to limiting factors:
Space
Cash
wayne
Any thoughts?
Ben F. Schumin :-)
JMU is James Madison University, in Harrisonburg, Virginia.
Sorry... meant to define those two. Still, we're talking about New York cars getting taken through VIRGINIA here.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Bill "Newkirk"
R-32.
1) the carrier who offers the cheaper rate, or
2) for oversize loads, clearance become an issue.
3) they would have had to go north to Albany before moving south or west.
4) a railway such as NS might offer a low price to get the business.
5) Mississippi river crossings rule plates sizes, maybe a mor southerly crossing was better for them.
Elias
Did Curtis and Kuby stage the accident to boost ratings?
...her sport utility vehicle was hit and rolled over on the William Floyd Parkway.
A witness who did not give his name told Suffolk County police that Picker was stopped by the side of the road when her car was hit from behind.
Oh that's just friggin great, now you don't even need to be hit from the side or throw the steering wheel hard over to roll one of these suckers. It'd be interesting to see an accident report, to learn the speed of the Chevy that hit her, and to learn the layout of the intersection where the accident happened, since I know nothing about the accident outside of those two italicized statements at the top. I do find it frightening that a SUV can be struck from the rear and roll about an axis parallel with the direction of the impact, that doesn't seem like something that should be happening in an accident.
Children
Sound systems
Navigation systems
Putting on makeup while driving
Eating
Drinking
Talking to passengers
Passengers in general
etc.
You get my point. It's how you do it, not the prima fascie act itself, that defines whether or not it is a hazard. (DUI is in a special category by itself for good reason, but cell phones, and most of the other behavior I've listed above, shouldn't be.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
How about reading the newspaper? Yep, I've seen people doing that while driving. Unbelieveable.
An especially obnoxious thing about cell phone users (maybe not in your neck of the woods, OK) is that, even making a sharp turn or having a near miss with another driver, they will not put the damned thing down.
And as a pedestrian? Just a few of the things I have personally observed is a driver zooming across a side walk and practically creaming me and my dogs. She never noticed I was there until I screamed at her and got a "who, me?" look. Then there was one (not in an SUV) who made a left turn and almost hit a woman with a baby carriage, but my favorite was a dude who was weaving and cut a cop car so close the cop jammed on his brakes. That one, at least, had reason to regret using the cell phone.
Yes, I have a cell phone. Yes, I keep it in my car. But if I have to talk on it, I pull over.
Something about phones -- the take precedence over everything and everyone. I worry that if my wife is on the phone while cooking, she'll burn the house down and kill the kids -- and still not stop gabbing. And I hate waiting my turn to talk the boss, starting to go over an issue, and have them answer a call. I'm better off just calling from a few feet away and interrupting someone else!
In any event, what I really resent about the SUVs is that they are designed to kill drivers (and passengers) of less expensive cars in low speed crashs at intersections where it is hard to see, like every one in Brooklyn. The bumper comes through the window. One of my daughters friends lost her mother to just such a collision. Her father, since remarried, drives an SUV now, he says to keep his family from being destroyed again. There is a higher profit margin to preserve your life, and you have to agree to wreck the environment besides.
There are SUV's and there are SUV's. Certainly you have some huge hulking models, such as Suburbans and most notably Hummers, but many others are considerably smaller and more car-like. Note that the one involved in the incident that started this thread, a Toyota RAV4, is one of the smallest models, lighter than many ordinary midsize cars.
NO YAPPING ON PHONES WHILST DRIVING! It's not like eating in the car or talking to someone in the car or having children in the car. It's a moron prattling on his walkie-talkie. (I know this is, uh, sexist, but when I see a guy on one anytime, but especially driving, I think "Geezus, yappin' like a woman! Can't shut his trap for the short time he's in transit.) To hell with duck season and wabbit season; I want to see drivers yapping on cell phones season. I have to laugh at their antics since the only other alternative is to give `em a Brooklyn halloo with a baseball bat. The ever-luvin' friggin' NERVE of these tiny brained bastards to endanger my life because they wanted to gossip while driving on the BQE!! Bunch of egotistical semi-literates with a childish fascination for blinking and beeping boxes. Most of `em would run down their own children to beat a light. And you just KNOW they're thinking to themselves "Gee, now I look COOL! Hey, I look like I'm in the movies n' shit! Oh, pweeze, notice me!! Look at me!"
And society is just filled with these jerk offs. It really is pathetic.
Amen.
And who might she have hit while making her important theory on the nature of the Michael Jackson case heard to the greater NY vicinity?
I've yet to see any real evidence that cell phone use contributes to dangerous driving. Anecdotes, yes, but it's hard to place much faith in them.
It's also telling that New York is AFAIK the only state with a ban on hand-held cell phones.
Many municipalities in New Jersey are jumping on the bandwagon, though, mainly as a revenue source (steeper fines for cell phone use than for speeding).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Fact 1. The woman in the SUV (Rav-4) pulled over to make a cell phone call.
Fact 2. The person who hit her was driving a 1999 Chevy sedan.
Fact 3. The person driving the Chevy was reading while driving.
Now Q-Ball, please explain to me how this makes SUVs unsafe. If you can successfully do this I will refrain from insulting you and your mindless drivel for 3 months. Come on John, explain this to me.
A 1998 RAV4 2WD gets 24 mpg city/29 highway, better than a V6 Camry from the same year.
...and UGLY, don't forget ugly.
Peace,
ANDEE
#3 West End Jeff
Just a few thoughts.
Mark
p.s.--this whole scenario is on the assumption that the ENTIRE Metro area got nailed by heavy snowfall---not just a part of the region.
Assuming it'll take about 8 inches for metro to go into that plan, the government would probably shut down, and the shopping malls at P.City would probably be closed, so passengers wouldn't have any where to go anyways.
Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority
600 Fifth Street, NW
Washington, DC 20001
I go back to the "hurricane isabelle", if everything is going to be closed (shopping malls, museums, the government) whats the point in continuing to run the trains when no one is gonna ride, heck where are you gonna go.
I'm guessing that part of the answer lies with the railroad rivalries of the day. Since the Pennsylvania RR owned the LIRR at the time, it only had access to its terminal in Manhattan, Penn Station. It had no access rights to Grand Central, which was then operated by the New York Central RR (or something like that).
If that is so, did the Pennsy even try to get access to Grand Central, such as by joint agreement with the NY Central, a la the joint BMT-IRT service on the Astoria and Corona lines?
NY Central was in a very fierce rivalry with the Pennsy when it came to services heading west. There was no way they were going to allow the competition to have a foothold in their terminal or access to their passengers.
Correct. In addition, the East Side wasn't a big employment draw in those days.
Just getting the Hudson, NY Central Harlem, and New Haven RRs into Grand Central was tough enough - you couldn't expect the PRR to get acces to GCT when their Hell Gate bridge was allowing them to cut into the New Haven's territory in Westchester and points north.
Secondly, commuter operations were a minor consideration for most railroads. The PRR/LIRR wasn't very concerned with providing a second nearby destination for commuters, especially if it would encourage them to take the competition for their long distance travel.
1) GCT did not exist.
2) the neighborhood was inhabited by COWS! MOO!
Elias
At the time the area was occupied by rail yards and various industrial concerns, like the original Ruppert brewery (The House that built the House that Ruth Built).
Actually, only a little over 50 years ago there were cows not far to the east of Grand Central. Not that they were particularly happy about being in the area. What is now the site of the United Nations was occupied by several slaughterhouses.
Today we still have cows-at-the-slaughterhouse-chute half-moons at Penn Station, but they're not quite the same thing.
AEM7
Heh -- so the Turpike Authority will retain a raison d'etre when the current Turnpike Authority bonds are finally paid off.
The Mass Turnpike Authority issued bonds back in the '50s to build the road; toll collection revenues were used to pay off the interest and principal. The Authority was legally required to remove the tolls from the road after the bonds were retired, sometime in the '80s or '90s. But -- suprise! suprise! -- the folks running the agency found some construction projects requiring new bonds at about the time that the old ones were retiring. New bonds meant that the tolls had to stay in place, and the whole bureaucracy couldn't be disbanded or merged into the Mass Highway Department. Talk about "lifetime employment"!
There is an archived USENET posting about this
here.
http://www.coloradomonorail.com/home.html
: )
The NE corridor was already upgraded north of New Haven the part this monorail route would bypass...any train via the shoreline or inland route still has to use Metro-North's tracks south of New Haven...the crappiest part of the trip. So this would involve longer travel times, two carriers, two round trip tickets.....nah, not gunna happen!
-- Ed Sachs
The BMT was more apt to have open staircases or actual station houses or headhouses.
The IND almost (emphasize almost) always had open staircases, the same or not much different from what they have now.
---Sir Ronald of McDonald
http://www.railfanwindow.com
This Is What I Live For...
5788 - 5789 - 5787 - 5786
Kudos to the car wash at Jamaica Yard. =)
-- Ed Sachs
The "A" Train
BTW, what's KO?
Even if he had the timetable for the entire Ronkonkoma branch, if the train was an express and didn't stop at Mineola, he'd have no way of knowing anything but the length and direction of the train as it would not be indicated with a time at the Mineola Station. The train could have just as easily been out of Huntington, Hicksville or Farmingdale. I'm not disputing that the train may have been from Ronkonkoma. I just wanted to know how the original poster knew it. It would be alot easire if he would respond rather than us debating speculations.
As for Ronkonkoma trains, in general, during peak hours, few if any westbound trains stop at Mineola. Now, the original poster did say it was an express (meaning it did not stop there). That does not in any way imply that it was or wasn't a train out of Ronkonkoma.
BTW: I use the Ronkonkoma branch almost on a daily basis. M-7s are very sparse at best.
Here's what one can glean from looking at the schedules:
The last westbound Ronkonkoma train that skips Mineola runs through Mineola at about 8:13 AM. Most Ronkonkoma trains prior to then also skip Mineola. From 8:18 AM until about 5:00, all westbound Ronkonkoma trains stop at Mineola.
The last westbound Huntington train that skips Mineola runs through Mineola at about 8:02 AM. Prior to that time about half the westbound Huntington electrics stop at Mineola. From 8:04 AM until about 5:00, all westbound Huntington trains stop at Mineola.
So we can conclusively say that we can't draw any conclusions from looking at the schedule.
CG
On a side note, I haven't noticed any 8 car M-7's either. Just 6 and 10. I'm not on the LIRR as much as I used to be, but I've seen enough 6's and 10's that the lack of 8's is kind of odd.
CG
Oh yes, I think they chopped the acceleration down a bit, they seem a bit slower now. Could be operator technique too, though.
1050 HP per car, for 12 cars gives about 12,500 amps at 750V, minus HEP/Aux loads, at 100% efficiency (not real life). That's within the capacity of the LIRR's power system. It's questionable if they actually reach that level of HP.
The M-1, per Budd's book maxes at 2.0mph/s acceleration, the M-7's do too, per BBD's specs. Scalling for weight, this would sugesst roughly 750HP/car, or about 9000 amps, again assuming no HEP + no losses.
BTW, the main fuse on the M-1s is 1000 amp (Per GE's book on the M-1A). I'm pretty sure the M-7s have high speed breakers, not fuses (which are probbably pretty much useless anyway, since fast interrupting of faults is needed, not overload protection, which is probbably handled by the inverter itself).
Giving the car's maximum exposure via short trains makes sense. I'm guessing the M-7's high HP is desire to pull dead cars with less performance hit - a 6 or 8 car train of M-1s with no dead cars is quite a punchy train....
Chuck
Mark
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
Should have bought it before trip #1
I figure with the money I've spent to develop film from the 7 trips I've attended so far (plus the one trip we made to Branford), I've pretty much spent about 75% of what this camera cost.
I do need a new memory card. 16MEG only holds about 33 shots at 1MEG resolution.
I use a Sony with a CD-RW drive in it. One disc holds 600+ photos, (newr discs will hold 900+ photos at VGA resolution.
Depending on what you will be doing with your photos there is no need to use better than VGA resolution, since your VGA monitor or internet connections cannot handle more. You only need the higher quality if you are going to print (photo lab or offset press) high quality.
But play around with the settings and see what suits your needs. Do not be afraid to try the lower res settings to see what they will do for you.
Happy Photography... And if you post any good shots, I'll be sure to swipe them for my screen saver program.
: ) Elias
This Is What I Live For...
Then reduce it to the size you need.
These may not be the best examples, but are the first two photos I grabbed for an example.
See this photo - the original:
Playing with it can give you this:
Or this:
Those are the same photos. You can only do things like that if you take the photos on the higher mp. Otherwise cropping will distort the image.
The same here with this original:
Playing with it can give you some finer details:
Or even this:
Again, those are the same photos. They do get a bit distorted even when cropping from the full 4mp originsl, but it's not even possible if you use lesser resolution.
I use the higher rez's sometimes to do a sort of "digital zoom."
You can leave the rez higher, and crop to 800x600 from there, instead of making the photo's total size 50%.
Once again, it's all about flexibility.
Here's another example. This is from Kosciuszko looking to Myrtle Broadway. When you crop the photo you can even see the M pulling in, which you can't even tell in the original version of the same photo. There's all kinds of things happening in the distance, and you'd never know it from the original uncropped photo. Again, these are all the same photo:
Original 4mp photo:
The last photo looks like a totally different photo! You couldn't do that with 1mp photos!
With most of my photos, the first thing I do is usually "shrink" the resolution, so I can upload them. However, I do copy all of the original sized photos to disk before playing with them. Those are your "negatives". If anything ever goes wrong, you can always fall back on them. (I learned that the hard way when my computer crashed a few months ago. I lost a lot of photos, but thankfully most were copied to disk).
I have almost 6 gigs of photos. I have an external backup firewire drive, I keep a backup copy there.
I also bought a new comp, for photo editing, and keep all my data on the old comp as well, just in case the new one decides to get funny.
Basically, I have 2 backups!
I always shoot at the highest setting. It gives you more flexibility in terms of cropping and editing. Even if the average size of the photos on my site are 800x600, I don't want to shoot my pictures in that mode. I'd rather edit them down to that size.
Chuck Greene
Chuck
Thanks.
Mental telepathy?
The BP ads saying the world needs less carbon are particularly irksome to me.
I once vandalized an illegal sticker atop an MVM ad in a subway car.* It posed a question about jobs lost by the machine, and I bluntly answered the question: YES!
*What do you call vandalizing vandalism? Byzantizing? Because it was the Emperor Justinian's armies that expelled the Vandals from Rome.
Here to view my photos at RailPictures.Net!
Frank Hicks
Your great pictures now have comments and explanations!
John
Regards,
Jimmy
Regards,
Jimmy
Regards,
Peter
Just east of Fresh Pond "station" you will pass under the M line, a small trestle, and then under a large truss bridge bearing the tracks of the Connecting Line above you.
This is probably the most interesting stretch of the line, right by the M line:
Ask them if they'll let you can pop in on Santa in the yard. He'll be in an old P72 xLIRR Coach now painted NY & Atl green.
I walked through the eastern half of Forest Park after a snowstorm, the first Saturday of December 2002. It was beautiful, but the hour (dusk) and the snow prevented me from taking my hiking "shortcut" through the park to Union Turnpike and Continental Avenue. I did this on my next visit (Saturday June 28 2003) but had to climb on all fours backwards down a brick-paved drainage swale from the Montauk Branch tracks to do so. A repaired fence now seals off that little
park that used to be adjacent to the north side of the tracks.
Richmond Hill will be easy to spot, it has a wooden island platform I believe. Also, see if you can spot out the old Rockaway line ROW
ENJOY!!!
Richmond Hill (It is concrete by the way)
Glendale
Fresh Pond
Haberman
Penny Bridge
Too bad Glendale "station" has lost its bucolic charm. "Bubolic" ?
Interesting typo : it's like "bucolic" is turning into the "Bubonic"
plague !
Here are some other interesting links from SubTalk Past on the subject:
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=434907
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=434868
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=559085
(I do see two tall buildings in the background, though.)
Oh no!!! I didn't even notice that! You just gave me the chills!
Amazing how many places you were had them in the background, and we used to just take them for granted (and all the people who worked there).
BTW Ron, David was joking about the "station".
The LIC line intermediate stations were quite primitive.
Where in Huntington are you going to?
Dan
I think there is only one train that uses the Upper Montauk. All the other LIC trains use the Main Line.
Robert
Bad week for AM rush hour on QB. I hope it doesn't get worse.
Robert
But still, a train laying down s/b in the 60 St tube shouldn't
screw up the n/b service like it did! The problem is it
requires people who know the system well, can form a big-picture
view in their head, and who aren't afraid to act quickly.
As soon as that train went BIE, you start turning Astoria
service back at that diamond crossover on the ramp s/o QBP.
You send your s/b R service via 63 St and since that forces
them to enter 57/7 on A3 track, you start turning Qs n/o times sq.
N and W trains could be turned back at Chambers or in
Brooklyn, etc. But instead, what generally happens is they'll
let everyone sit and do nothing until the entire railroad
grinds to a halt, then they'll start scurrying to turn trains,
drop intervals, etc., but the damage is done.
TD TD is one of those that know her stuff but they have her in 'Siberia'. Not only would she not hesitate to turn trains to keep the flow she would know enough to know which crews to turn also.
Robert
Robert
The price is $240.00, $262.00 with tax. Sorry no MTA employee discounts.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Regards,
Jimmy
Jimmy: Like you I already have one MTA car and one CDOT Shoreliner from Walther's. I don't know exactly what the radius is but it seems to be the standard one where six curved track make half a circle. I could be wrong though.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Regards,
Jimmy
Jimmy: What can you tell me about this R-17 set and about Trainworld itself. I've been planning a trip to the Brooklyn Store and would like some idea how much stock that they have. I am specifically looking for New York Central stock in HO.
Thanks, Larry, RedbirdR33
Regards,
Jimmy
Jimmy: Thanks for the info. I'm well acquaited with the Red Caboose.
I plan to head out to Trainworld tomorrow night after work. Thanks again
Larry, RedbirdR33
Also, the R-17s are being released in the Redbird paint scheme, due July 2004.
--Mark
Koi
Koi
The article starts: "Mary Pinkett showed up. Sometimes late, but in the battle to save a subway line a few years ago, she was always there." The city's first female black Council member, she attended meeting after meeting after news conference after hearing when the MTA threatened to shut down the line. She spoke eloquently about how the line merited renovation. One news conference was held in 90-degree weather one July morning at the Botanic Garden station. Reporters and residents sought the shade until she arrived. When she did, she insisted that Helmuth Lesold, another veteran shuttle booster, be lifted in his wheelchair to the subway's mezzanine. "She made sure he was taken down into the subway station so that he could be a full participant," said Connie Lesold, a retired social worker. [Presumably Connie is related to Helmuth -- AM New York doesn't say.] "I really think she was the one elected official who stayed on it from beginning to end," said Lesold, who also worked to save the shuttle.
The Times had her obituary last week, but didn't mention the shuttle.
The Line should read....Matus' not Matus's.
Presumably the plan is looking down on the 140-foot deep ESA mega-terminal and north is to the right; then the brown on the lower left must be the subway. Why does ESA go round a loop? How many tracks go round the loop? How do you get from the ESA to the subway? Do the other drawings show the ESA at street level? Where are we in relation to the plan view?
That explains the rail part of things, but do you know what the three illustrations show, and at what level they are? I can see at least one escalator going down, and a few stairways. Also do you know what the green areas are on the map?
Face it, we live in NY, rather the USA. We're not protected from crime as well as whatever gov't say. As for your wallet, sorry it happened, but you should be keeping a sharper eye for these things. Whenever I'm near someone I always keep my hand on my pocket, or if I'm on the subway, I hold the bar with my left hand and put my right hand in my pocket. Oh boy...I better fear Long Island more than NYC now...yeah right.
Oh, BTW, sorry to hear you were robbed.
What does "could of" mean? Do you mean "could have"?
I gotta admit, it's curious. You didn't feel it sliding out of your pocket? Was there anyone that close to you during this time sequence? It could have been someone who bumped into you, or brushed passed you.
Don't discount the losing it possibility either. It could have dropped, or been nudged out of your pocket and fallen to the street. Sure, most people, if they noticed it falling would yell at you about it, tell you that it happened. Maybe not on a crowded train, although it still could happen there too; honest folks ride the trains too, but in a brightly lit supermarket I believe anyone would inform you of what fell out of your pocket.
Thing is, though, if nobody actually witnessed it, right after you left the location and before you realized your wallet was missing, it would just be lying there on the floor, un-claimed. It's bound to be picked up. So okay, let's say that's what happened. Don't lose all hope yet; maybe the guy took any cash and dropped it into the nearest mailbox. Or they took it home and are looking up your name to call you about it.
I think there have been tests done on random passersby and the majority of wallet finders called an identifying number placed in the wallet in case it was lost. A minority just grabbed it and kept it.
Nope. I think you dropped it. Not trying to be callous. Either it'll be mailed to you, someone will call you, or it's gone. Finis. That bit about "security footage"...hey, maybe the guy or girl who picked it up needed it more than you did. When I lose stuff that's exactly how I feel about. And I wish them well with it. We both know it's just b.s. papers and whatnot. A pain but no great loss.
So he may have lost the wallet after all, scum bucket. Now maybe you should just eat shit and die.
My winter coat is a long one that goes just below my waist, which makes the picks job even harder.
The only thing in the right back pocket is my handkerchef. Doubt a pick wants that.
If your coat is short,(or it's warm weather) keep your hand in the wallet pocket until you are well away from the store and not in an obsured area.
Sounds like some big talk for someone who don't have the balls to give his e-mail address. Any time you feel hoppy froggy feel free to jump.
It's not my intent to be the advocate for any other subtalkers but at least one other subtalker said,
"You're just guessing that you were robbed. You could of just lost it. Right?"
And you accused that person of being "evil". I can understand that you were upset yesterday but with your constant criticism of others who have more than you, with your constant criticism of the people you live around, maybe the "evil" is within you. I didn't wake up in a preachy mood today but you do need to change your outlook, young man or the next 27 years and maybe the 27 after that will be no better than the first.
Another thing to seriously consider. Before you go half-cocked again -- ranting and raving about neighborhoods going to the dogs -- take a few deep breaths and count to ten. I'm sure you'll feel alot better and we could then all be saved another of your fear-stricken, paranoid postings...
Give it some thought -- won't you?
Keep rubberbands wrapped around your wallet. It makes it more difficult to pluck it from your pocket.
Did you ask the person at the register if you had left your wallet there.
If they would have seen it, they would have put it someplace safe.
Elias
Stuff napkins in your pocket above the wallet. At least the napkins are useful if you need to blow your nose.
And the potential robber can catch the flu from you when trying to steal your wallet.
But hey, shit happens, right? I have nothing but bad news and tips for you. My mom's wallet was stolen at King Kullen here in PW once, they never found it. See if the credit card company can trace any charges to it, unless you canceled before they could use it for anything.
Were you keeping it in you back pocket? If so, that is always the biggest mistake to make. Always keep it in ur side pocket. Hell, I keep my money and metro card in my jackets chest pocket.
I felt bad for losing my wallet (lost a metrocard, some cash, student ID, health insurance card) but I just learned that life goes on. I'm now using a newer wallet (originally my father's but he never used it) that isn't as good as the one I used to have (this one doesn't have an adequate place to hold change) but it's better than nothing.
Actually I am just making a obligatory referance there, I don't carry a wallet for exactly the reasons you stated.
Do you have any contacts at your old address? On the off chance you did just lose it (or if a thief just took the cash and tossed the wallet aside) there may be someone looking to return it to you.
CG
PS. Sorry to hear about the wallet. No matter how it happened, it still sucks.
CG
Someone found it, searched through my phone book in order to find out how to contact me or someone I know, and I got it back the same day!
I myself was VERY lucky, TWICE! Back in 1987, I was grabbed and held around my chest while he was searching my coat. In two seconds I pulled out my box cutter and made a direct hit on both eyes on the mugger. He dropped me so fast I had no time too look back at the sharp razor blinding him for good. The second time a few years later I was followed and got stuck at a parking lot with a career criminal. For 5 long, hard minutes I tried to outwit him, even tried to aim at his face with another razor. Two people came up to him (who quickly saw him from an earlier robbery) and gave chase. He was arrested a week later and was involved in a string of robberies in the Flatbush area.
Stop whining and take action. Get a copy of the Village Voice and call one of the Asian massage joints that run ads in the back pages all the time. You won't feel so pressured afterwards and will be in a better position to get it on with a chik for free - as dogs can smell fear, chix can sense desperation. Even though you're living on the taxpayer's dole, as a taxpayer I would not object at all if you use some of your government benefits for this purpose. Consider it a form of horizontal psychotherapy.
Yes, but it works in reverse for men. Recall that George became highly intelligent when he couldn't have sex. I hate to inform you of this, John, but you may be intellectually capped out.
CG
As for your other problem, Peter is right, woman like self-confidence. If you can get past your pessimistic outlook on life, and the thought that everyone is a "gangsta", among other things, your other problem will take care of it's self. I have met you and you seem like a really nice guy, even if a bit paranoid. That's okay, if you can get past that a bit, you'll have a much better chance of "riding the subway" so to speak.
My wallet was never returned to my old address (my school ID had my old address) which probably means it was stolen.
It doesn't hurt me, but you do have to be called to this kind of life. It is not for everybody.
Elias
It is very humiliating to find ones wallet missing, whether stolen or just fallen out of your pocket. I always make it a point to keep it in my left front pocket, and to make sure that my pockets are deep enough. A wallet can fall out of a shallow pocket very easily and without fanfare. I learned that the hard way. Luckily a good Samaritan notified me before it was too late. Lacking deep enough pockets, I'll put my wallet in a butt pack- er, fanny pack.
At age 28, I did have my wallet lifted while in a crowded Queens bar. I'll spare you the embarrassing specifics. Cutting to the chase, I drove to the local precinct to report it, and get written verification that my license was stolen should I get stopped while driving. Fortunately, I had just renewed my license and was awaiting it in the mail, so it was my temporary license that was in the wallet.
ME: "I'd like to report my wallet was stolen."
P.O.: "Did you drive here to report this?"
ME: "Yes."
P.O.: "Was your drivers license in your wallet?"
ME: "Yes."
P.O.: "Do you know that driving without your license is a summonsable offense?"
After much questioning of me that clearly implied I was at fault for the disappearance of my wallet, they didn't give me a summons- or written verification of my missing license. It was the Friday night beginning of Labor Day weekend, so I had to wait till Tuesday to go to the bank to have my ATM card replaced. From the confusion exhibited by the Citibank customer service officers, you would think I was the first person who ever lost his ATM card. Fortunately, I didn't have my Visa card in my wallet at all. A few days later, my permanent license arrived.
Losing ones wallet today would hold much higher stakes. My annual Transitcheck Metrocard is in there!
Good luck in the future- and be CAREFUL.
#3 West End Jeff
Look pal if you think my life is a vacation think again!
I maybe do "railfanning" or bus fanning once or twice a week. All the other days are errands, appointments, and looking for work. I have to find the right job, something for 18 hours or so a week where I dont have to deal with people (retail I definately cannot handle). Also you want to work in a job where you actually make money, not lose money. I'm meeting with a few people (who unlike you, have training in psychological illnesss)in the next week or two and will help me find work.
You havent been diagnosed with anxiety and depression so butt out making personal comments about me. Anyway its a waste of time trying to convince people like you about mental illness so why do I even bother trying.....
This is the last time I explain myself to comments attacking me. Any one who makes any more comments will be killfiled, PERIOD.
If I were you and either if my wallet was lost, stolen or given over in an armed robbery, I wouldn't have gone to SubTalk and tell the whole world. You did create a monster post with tons of responses. Just keep it on topic and people will treat you better.
Bill "Newkirk"
MY GOD!!!! By Jove, the young lad's finally GOT IT!!!
HIP, HIP, HOORAY!!!!!
Anxiety or depression do not require a person per se to work only 18 hours a week. People with these diagnoses can and do work full-time, 40 hours a week. If you look for a full-time job the advantage there is you're more likely to get the benefits that go along with full-time work (health insurance etc. etc.)
And there are jobs out there you can do that do not require working with the public.
BTW, can you do programming? Check out www.rentacoder.com.
THIS IS A VACATION!!! How many of us have the time to go railfanning even once a week?
Some of us work near a location conducive to railfanning and have a job that lets us duck out at lunch time for 45 minutes and do a little railfanning.
I realize that you're implying riding the LIRR for an hour and riding a few subwy lines, then back on the LIRR for another hour when you say "railfanning", but some of us take what we can get. Then when we take a vacation day and do REAL railfanning, some kid like Jersey Mike or Ronald McDoobie gets jealous that an old fart gets 6 WEEKS VACATION!!!!
BTW, Hi ya, Bob!
18 hours a week? I work 40, and that's too much, but I am also aware that there are people who must work between 55 and 70 to make ends meet. I also cut my expenses back so I only have to work 40 hours, but some of the people that are working 55-70 live in areas where their fixed expenses consume more of their paycheck than is generally deemed healthy.
But you can write and are pretty artsy -- why not try to get a position as a reporter or photographer?
AEM7
Thereby creating a way for hundreds of thousands of US manufacturing jobs to be siphoned off to there, as well as legitimizing a communist government with human rights violations coming out the wazoo, all while simultaneously creating a balky, convoluted definition of what china is, which prevented later administrations from getting Taiwan the help it needed to keep the mainland at bay. Oh, and how could I forget, he also sold out a democratic nation poised next to a communist nuclear power and kicked the democratic country out of the UN while admitting the communist one.
...signed the first nuclear reduction ABM Treaty...
Yep, which was a piece of flawwed logic when you think about it. Why is it okay for two nations to threaten each other with utter destruction many times over, yet it is suddenly wrong for those two nations to attempt to develop systems to safeguard their people? MAD wasn't a statesmanship technique, it was idiocy. So long as the balance of power changes evenly on both sides, everything is cool, and now there is a nice little backup in the event of a Failsafe scenario.
But I guess it's a moot point since your buddy Dubya used the ABM treaty for toilet paper a year or two ago, all for a missile shield that doesn't have a hope of making a difference in an all out nuclear exchange. And that assumes that it works, which is more than a bit iffy, since it is now questionable as to whether the exo-atmospheric kinetic kill device can survive take-off on the NMD interceptor, since that accelerates faster than the test booster they've been using now.
started real Affirmative Action
Well, he really just kept doing what Johnson started in that respect. I guess we should give him credit for keeping it going, after all he's not attacking it like some of your friends.
finally ended the Vietnam War
Again, that's just because he kept doing what Johnson did, micromanaging the war from Washington. Through 1972 the staff running the war in Vietnam had plans to implement an attack like the kind seen in 1991 over Iraq, but Nixon, like Johnson, avoided giving his generals and admirals that much rope, which resulted in more people getting killed over there than was neccessary. Yes there were concerns about Russia and China coming to the aid of their Vietnamese comrades, but if Nixon was such a great guy how come he couldn't sort them out?
Bush ended the ABM Treaty because it was no longer viable unless you can find the Soviet Union that Reagan brought down on a map somewhere.
And Mussolini made the trains run on time. Fred, I actually voted for him in my first Presidential election but let's face it, all the positive things about Nixon cannot make up for the fact he was involved in obstruction of justice and a coverup in a burglary. Read the transcripts of the tapes, he even asked his henchmen, Halderman, Ehrlichman, and Dean, how much they thought the Mafia would charge them to assist in the coverup.
Can you take that statement and apply it to Clinton, whose only problem was that he had a blow job in the Oval Office, (pace Whitewater et al), but still managed to accomplish quite a lot while in office.
I dont believe in absolutes, especially as it concerns politicians. I also believe that private lives should be private. I could never run for office in the US, because I would tell people who wanted to look at my tax returns etc, etc, None of your ****** business!
Nixon had accomplishments, Clinton had accomplishments. Both understood what their job was and what they were doing.
I wish I could say the same for the present administration.
How bizarre ... how bizarre ...
With the liberal media out with their shovels, digging into the personal and family areas with a no holds barred attitude, Colin has decided that the personal cost is too high and he will not put his family through it.
New York MTA expands info online
from the Transportation Communications Newsletter
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Wow, a %10 increase in ticket sales bringing in a grand total of 30 million in revenue. Go Amtrak.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12082003.shtml#Full
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I am surprised this hasn't been reported yet. Last week some time Amtrak's Beech Grove shoppes went on strike for the reasons listed in the article. Hmmm, if I were working for a company teetering on the brink I don't think that I would really want to strike.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12082003.shtml#Beech
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I mean who DOSEN'T want their own Amtrak station???
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12082003.shtml#Plaistow
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I think that Jeb and George had a spat about who was the bigger Bush (ie ignorant asshole). Well, since the national constitution isn't getting in the way of big Bush I don't see how a state constitution could get in the way of little Bush.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12082003.shtml#Florida
BTW why do you support licenses for illegals. By limiting their mobility you can force down the wages they can demand.
Because it's easier for them to get a license than a chick in an SUV talking on the cell-phone. All i need is even less people on the road with a 1/4 of a clue and no insurance.
And guess what, if they have a CA license, they can automatically get a FL or NY one just by moving in without takig test or anything else once again.
Enron: There's hundreds of company's that do worse everyday to people. Can we say Wal-marts old practice of buying life-insurance on it's employees and cashing in on the policies if something happens to them? There's a win-win.
ANd I thought Cali's new gov. always bowed down to special interest I heard.
Lobby your state legislature. MA legislature requires most people moving in to take a written test. Yes, you can drive here with a CA licence, and you can renew it by mail, but you still don't have an MA licence. What difference does it make? Well, most liquor stores and banks only accept MA, NH, and VT licences as ID. Just ask anyone who drives in from Maine to Boston. They have hell a time trying to convince people that their ME licence is real.
AEM7
I've been wishing everyone had to do a written test over again.
Talk about bizzare. DMV will accept out-of-state licences for the purposes of car ownership, but non-governmental entities require MA, NH or VT licences.
AEM7
$50 million for an indoor rainforest in Iowa
$400,000 for a Trout Genome Mapping project
$225,000 for the National Wild Turkey Federation
According to Taxpayers for Common Sense, this years total of pork spending is expected to exceed the record set in 2002 where 9,300 pet projects cost us a total of $22.5 billion, which could be better used, say, for the Second Avenue Subway, or upgrading rail infrastructure for higher speeds.
Its called getting value for money.
Wow, I didn't know alcoholics were so committed to their beverages of choice.
But then again, you got NASA, who, even though is supposed to get the funding it needs, a very high percentage is all pork. SO NASA technically doesn't get much, and yet, they probably never have to worry about being cut completely.
"and at some point you realize they're all just lining their own pockets"
attached to the end of it.
CG
I don't know what your comment has to do with high speed rail in Flordia, but I do miss the days when the president spent his time getting himself off rather than wasking hundreds of billions of my tax dollars in a useless war that will only lead to a second Iran. Here's what I don't get. You're a greedy republican, yet you opposed Clinton, who's leisure activities didn't cost you one red cent and you support Bush that's probably piddled away $100 or so of the very tax dollars you paid on a war that's sole point is to boost his image and approval numbers. Inventing a war so that you can push your adgenda through congress and "unite" the public behind you is exactly the same tactic as setting fire to the Reichstag so that you can declare a state of emergency with all the special powers thereof.
As I said back in 2000, I much prefer presidents lying about personal bussiness than about policy.
BTW, since the regime you are a member effectivly has total control over all three branches of government why do you even feel need to respond to me with vicious personal attacks? I mean you won, why aren't you happy about it. Your main man Bush is putting the squash on High Speed Rail in Flordia. You should be feeling all pumped that such a "liberal" concept as rail transit is being stopped.
AEM7
It's amazing how many people were persuaded that Iraq presented an immediate threat to the USA. Despite the lack of evidence, the public was duped into a bogus association between Iraq and al-Qaeda. Bush made a terrible mistake by acting unilaterally, and now we're finding out that there is no exit strategy.
It's been plain since day 0 that there was no exit strategy. The public just choose to ignore that fact because Bush was able to mesmorize them with a waving flag.
Except maybe using White House GSA funds to purchase cigars at a nearby store. LOL
As far as tax money goes we are fighting an expensive war on terror which will not end soon.
So why don't we spend the money to actually fight terror? Contrary to the propaganda Saddam was probably the best of all possible solutions re: fighting terrorism in Iraq. Do you actually think that Saddam, a secular dictator, would in any way support an islamic revolutionary terrorist organization??? Saddam only cared about one thing...himself. Due to sanctions he long ago had to divert most of his weapons budget into the Palace Fund. Why would we want to give the US an excuse to knock his flimsly armies aside by attacking us? With Saddam gone we will see one of two outcomes. 1) the Iraquies choose their own government which will probably Islamist and will support terrorism just like our best buddy Saudi Arabia. 2) We install a seclar, pro-western puppet government which is later overthrown by an angry Islamist govermnent that will support terroism just like fellow axis of evil member Iran.
Congraduations, you spent 200 billion dollars to create Iran 2.
Hey, here's a radical idea for you. Why don't you combat terrorism by combating global poverty? Maybe if people had something to LIVE for they wouldn't be so quick to blow themselves up. Maybe if people had access to secular schools they wouldn't become brainwashed fundamentalists. You can't stop terrorism short of some kind of mass extermination. We learned that lesson in vietnam and Isreal is learning that lesson now. The War on Terror will be no more successful than the war on drugs. Its just another rat hole for your money to disappear down.
or the US as we know it will never be the same again.
You're right, it will be better.
Geez um, which fucking left wing sucker has suckered you in? Tiffany per chance? I never knew she was one of those earthly Green nuts! Mike, you need some senses knocked into you! Get a girlfriend from the South and you'll be Republican in no time.
AEM7
AEM7
Mark
Hey, but global poverty is the reason why you and I can have air conditioning in the summer, and heat in the winter; cheap shoes, clothes, and food. Think about this for a minute: if the factory workers in India and other apparel-producing countries were paid Union wages in Massachusetts -- or somehow means-tested for their standards of living and be paid a "fair" wage, do you really think you and I could afford to live the way we do?
There are many ways to run the numbers, but whichever way you run it you realize that if you redistributed wealth and resources throughout the entire world "equitably", nobody would have that much.
Global poverty pays for my luxuries. I like it.
AEM7
Mark
That's what the global sustainability movement is all about. Basically it says that if we can all live with less, then everyone would be better off and the earth's resources would be depleted slower. I agree with that. It doesn't just apply to T-shirts, but any equipment and consumables that could be shared: zero to one TV per household instead of the average 2.2; smaller servings of fude; less driving and more public transit; longer wait times on public transit; slower pace of life.
BUT this presupposes: If the average American were content with ten t-shirts, which is clearly not true. And since this sustainable lifestyle on a massive basis is clearly unattainable, we will have to put up with global poverty being a consequence of our (American citizens in the Northeast, Midwest and California) lavish living. And since I'm part of this lavish living (hell, I moved third-way across the globe two times to escape the so-called poverty), I am prepared to defend it.
I'm a big advocate of using electronic ink to display T-shirt designs, so I could have one T-shirt and cycle many different designs on it just by re-programming the T-shirt, and if I needed to go to a business meeting I could reprogram it to display "white". But the technology isn't there yet. Cheaper to buy many T-shirts each with a different design on it, because of global poverty.
AEM7
Mark
The past is not the present, nor the future.
Mark
A typical small-town view. Perhaps even 30 years ago that might have been true, but these days economies do not come from decentralized production. Witness the failure of the rust belt cities -- a shadow of their former self. And foreign competition is not completely to blame.
AEM7
Ever since this country was founded its growth has relied upon the exploitation of some group. First it was the african slaves. Then it was skilled immigrants from the old world who carried us through the 50's. With the orginizational rise of the American worker we have learned to look overseas for our cheep labout. The best part about that is that we don't actually have to let them into our country...although that it why domestic construction quality has really really sagged.
Bingo. It's all distribution. Economy can only grow stably at some 2%-3% per year.
Actually, that's not the reason. The reason you're losing your job to some Chinese guy is because the trade barriers came down. Trade barriers is what allows you to keep your wages high. It has relatively little to do with global poverty. It is not clear whether trade barriers increase or decrease global poverty, because, (1) if the barriers were up, the people in China have nothing because they have no market to sell their products to; (2) if the barriers were down, the people in China compete against those in India and other places, driving their prices down, but they end up having nothing become the competition is fierce.
Global poverty has nothing to do with your losing your job. Trade barriers is what causes you to lose your job. Global poverty will exist regardless of who manufactures the stuff we consume in the U.S.
Unless foreign labor understand how to organize and bargain for better conditions, global poverty will continue to exist. If they don't know what's good for them, it's their problem.
AEM7
Then, revolution is needed, and that isn't an U.S. issue. Reality check on history here: the French had six revolutions before the ruling class finally realized that they must step down and let workers get their fair share of economic prosperity. Britain managed to avoid a revolution but it took radical leadership such as Ramsay Macdonald to limit the power of the ruling class, and to this day there is poverty and the working class continue to be oppressed and barred from top jobs. If opppressive governments in China are squashing the workers who form Unions, then it is up to the workers Union to arm themselves to the teeth and overthrow the government in order to get their "fair" share. U.S. can facilitate that by supplying weapons technology to Chinese labor organizations, and earn some money in the process.
America needs a manufacuring base to continue to field a superior military force. If our most talented people are channelled into USELESS fields like Business Administration and economics, rather than engineering and technology, then America will no longer be able to have the best military technology.
John, I agree wholeheartedly with you, except that it works both ways. The definition of 'talent' varies, what I have going for me is a bachelors degree in Physics, a masters degree in Transportation, an IQ that would put me in the top 10% of the U.S. population, and two years' experience with infrastructure and railroad companies. I have spent most of my working career trying to get a job that involves engineering or management of engineering. And I'm f**king stuck here working for Corporate America because I don't have enough seniority to hold a job worth shit on the railroad. Just today, I called a railroad to see if they have a job for me. No, all they have open is Union positions, and I'm not eligible for those because I actually have a f**king degree.
People like me try and try to get into engineering, manufacturing, or operations. We get beaten back by Unions leaders that started hammering spikes at seventeen and looks down on anyone with any education. I'm not saying starting on the track gang at 17 isn't as honourable as going to college at 17, but track work isn't for everyone and the Unions have made it such that if you don't do track work, or don't drive a bus, you can't get into engineering, manufacturing, or operations. Whose fault is that? When I'm offered an Union job is when I'll start working for real.
AEM7
Why don't you check out the resume of a certain Leo Mullin. If I recall correctly, Mr. Mullin started out as a McKinsey and Co. Consultant. He then was recruited into senior management. Before running Delta Airlines, he ran Conrail.
Why not toss McKinsey or Bain or Deloitte and Touche consulting, a resume?
haha! I know someone who works for McKinsey out of New York. He tried to recruit me at one point, then realized I was too honest talking for his purposes. I have a friend who works for Deloitte & Touche out of London (he used to work for Arthur Andersen, and then they got taken over after the accounting scandal erupted). I think that if I had wanted to stay in a backwards country... I might be working for D&T now. I think that I'm entirely responsible for the career mess I got myself in now -- and it's not really a mess, it's okay, just not what I envisioned when I first made the move to a lesser-backwards country. Who knows -- I've a whole life ahead of me.
My reflections,
AEM7
Still, their desire to hire you speaks well of you.
No on two counts: (1) They never went as far as "desire to hire me", he just asked me to contact this guy if I am interested in a career there; (2) The desire to recruit me really is a testiment to networking opportunities at conferences that I'd been granted, and has little to do with my abilities in anything...
It's sad that hiring decisions really depend more on networking than on ability.
For what it's worth, I appreciate the intellect you show in your posts.
So have any of you seen Hugh Grant's "Love Actually"? I found it really quite deep and refreshing. It's both social commetary and represents a uniquely British perspective to what we're just been talking about here re: Shrub. Described my sentiments perfectly, by the way. AEM7
Yep. Really a film aimed for soppy girls, but it was quite fun to watch, nonetheless.
Just one thing - Martine McCutcheon so isn't fat.
It's both social commetary and represents a uniquely British perspective
I'll drink to tha'. Long live Souff London!
I don't about it being aimed for soppy girls -- it's aimed at the American general population. The antithesis of that is an artsy movie called "Pieces of April". Really both tell the same story, but the setting is kind of different. The social commentary in "Pieces of April" is more aimed at the urban, working crowd.
Just one thing - Martine McCutcheon so isn't fat.
She's definitely worthy of a First Lady. Incidentally, I thought the way they zoomed in on the Christmas card she supposedly wrote to Hugh Grant was kind of interesting. She vaguely reminded me of British girls I knew. Beyond about 8th grade though, I never knew anyone like that. It was interesting to see an age-progressed version of people I used to know.
AEM7
Fred, the funny thing is, I know several people like that. It's an Irish thing. (I'm obviously having my Irish kick tonight.) I felt that the point of the movie is that she felt morally bound by her familial committments, and I can understand where she is coming from. At the end of the day, you might be dating some wonderful person but your family is just that, your family. These days couples part by divorce but family will always remain blood relatives. I didn't live with my dad since I was about 12 (by the way, not due to a divorce, due to a employment-location situation) and I had lived alone since I was about 17. I understand why she needed to go and take care of her brother. If I were the guy in the movie, I would have understood and supported her all the way. I hope. (I guess I won't know until I have to deal with that kind of situation, and I hope I never have to!)
And yes, she was pretty cute.
AEM7
I think there are a number of reasons for that. Firstly Irish culture has traditionally permitted men to be drunk at the weekends and the result is that some men abused their wives. Irish girls are a tough breed and has in general been able to deal with that, but some began to look outside their culture in an attempt to escape from these undesirable men that they grew up knowing. Thus the Irish have historically been more accepting to cross-cultural marriages than other. Then there's the fact that Irish immigrants came later and was initially rejected by the mainstream Americans. The result is a culture that is very willing to open up to others where they are accepted. And there's the fact that Irish culture on the whole have traditionally been very hospitable, and generally treated people nicely even if they were somehow different. The culture probably developed out of necessity as some Irish people were travellers that relied on pretty much strangers to help them out in unfamiliar territory.
I know these are cultural stereotypes and obviously are not all true, but these are general trends that I have observed. I've had good luck with Irish girls too, and I have found them in general much more accepting than others. But they also do have a very strong family culture -- shared by the Italians and some of the Asian cultures.
AEM7
What, specifically, does "soppy" mean in this context?
soppy adjective INFORMAL DISAPPROVING
showing or feeling too much of emotions such as love or sympathy, rather than being reasonable or practical:
e.g. "a film with a soppy ending"
"That's one of the soppiest stories I've ever heard!"
"Some people are really soppy about their pets."
AEM7 -- The Bridge between North America and Great Britainnia
Ah. In other words, soppy chix are the sort of chix who, when writing, dot the letter i with little hearts.
Not necessarily, but basically, yes. I sometimes wish the more practical women would do such soppy things. Then they would be perfect!
Hopefully a rail bridge :-)
They don't. Opporunities to put yourself in a position to be hired depend more on networking than ability. At most quality firms, though, the hiring decision will still be an ability-based one.
If you want to work for a railroad, then get yourself down to one of those consultants. The railroads fully understand the problems they've created for themselves and hire out consultants to do (and supervise) much of the difficult work anyway.
If you want to enrich yourself at the expense of others that is a perfectly fine choice, just be honest about it. Don't go around feeling that you're somehow doing the rest of the world a service by your actions and don't get all pissy and indignent when they set off a truck bomb under some building.
You can get mad that they got past your security, just don't feel that you're some injured party deserving of pitty.
What really cheeses me off is not our actions around the world, but the fact that we lie to ourselves about it. If the president and a majority of the public wanted to go around fucking the world because frankly they just didn't care and it made them better off, I would be fine with it. But this whole "real adgenda" "facade adgenda" is really crap. Not only is the public being lied to, it hinders our effectiveness in our "real adgenda". If we want to be some exploitive imperalist power we need to go all out...like Britan or South Africa. If for the sake of the faccade we pussy foot around like we did in Vietnam we will just waste American lives and money.
Wait, the U.S. did not impoverish the Rest of the World. In fact, U.S. demands have driven development in many places that wouldn't have had development otherwise. Lots of sweatshops and factories were developed in places like Taiwan, Hong Kong, Malaysia, India, serving chiefly U.S. and British demands. Taiwan made cheap plastic toys. Malaysia made electronics. India made clothes. Indonesia made shoes. U.S. demand has not CAUSED the poverty. The issue here is that competition and free-market in satisfying that demand has caused the poverty. The solution is somehow restore pricing power back into the system. Only foreign Unions and governments can do that. The apparel and cheap plastic toys exporting countries need to form a cartel like OPEC, or a conference like SRCC, to regulate their prices.
Life decent in the 1980s? For you the upper-middle class professional suburbanite, perhaps. Go ask a few single moms how they brought up their kids in the 1980s, versus the kind of stuff that single moms can afford now. Most of that prosperity at the bottom end of the income scale has been afforded by making sweatshops in Eastern countries.
If you want to enrich yourself at the expense of others that is a perfectly fine choice, just be honest about it.
And how was I dishonest? Or are we agreeing here?
What really cheeses me off is not our actions around the world, but the fact that we lie to ourselves about it. If the president and a majority of the public wanted to go around fucking the world because frankly they just didn't care and it made them better off, I would be fine with it.
Yes, politicians lie. You and I see the real agenda. I choose to enjoy the real agenda. You choose to fight it claiming some world peace solution. D'you think you'd REALLY want the world peace solution? You're the hypocrit here.
AEM7
Opening up oppurtinities in other lands is fine and I am all for it...but forcing people from whatever life they are living and giving them the choice between starvation and wage slavery is another matter indeed. We have done both and I don't partitiularily agree with the latter.
Its the classic tale of when one or a few people control all the respurces. The other people have to do whatever the one or few wants, no matter how represensible, because the only other option is death. When the other people become indifferent to death, then then the problems begin.
I mean just look at the crippling debt load the third world faces
Please be more specific, you might be able to educate me here. Which country, what debt load, and how is it 'crippling'? Specifically, when a country is unable to pay its debt to the World Bank or U.S. interests, what happens? If my understanding is correct, the debts are almost always restructured, and sometimes investors end up with dimes on the dollar for their investment. How is this crippling?
or some of the environmental crises we have exported
Please be specific. What environmental crises? The Greenhouse gas problem is common to the globe. The other pollution resulting from overuse of gasoline are mostly local, and limited to U.S. cities. The toxic chemical processing has been mostly exported, but developing countries can just as easily legislate against those externalities as the U.S. has. Yes, countries like India scrap Bermuda-flagged vessel on their open shores with manual labor, no protection, and actylene torches, draining fuel and other pollutant into the sea. Whose responsibility is that? I'd contend, the Indian government. They have pricing power over their own scrapping operations.
or the brutal dictatorships we have set up.
Update me on the situation in Iran. I am not familiar with that part of World History.
but forcing people from whatever life they are living and giving them the choice between starvation and wage slavery is another matter indeed. We have done both and I don't partitiularily agree with the latter.
They are empowered to change their own living situation, by one of a few means: (1) Attempt to move to the U.S. -- many Indians succeed every year in obtaining residency after completing a degree and practical training in the U.S.; (2) They could use their governance structure to institute fair wage policies; they could unite against the United States, if necessary, by forceful overthrowing of their governments so they can institute protectionist trade barriers.
It[']s the classic tale of when one or a few people control all the res[o]urces. The other people have to do whatever the one or few wants, no matter how represensible, because the only other option is death. When the other people become indifferent to death, then then the problems begin.
No. The issue is that the people who have control over resources outside the U.S. are not exercising such control effectively. There are ways, to send jolts into the U.S. economy simply by changing oil output levels. There are other levers. For example, China could vastly increase the value of its currency against the U.S. dollar by leveraging the trade deficit. They just hadn't done it, because they want to continue to sell Chinese workers out at those poverty wages. China doesn't have a democratic government. It would not be too difficult to organize one, especially if the vast army saw what they could do if they disobeyed the Party and instead obeyed the People.
Last time I checked Argentina and most of Central America seemed pretty fucked over. These countries are given the choice of (albeit delayed) repayment or never receiving any international investment again ever via a periment FF bond rating.
Yes, countries like India scrap Bermuda-flagged vessel on their open shores with manual labor, no protection, and actylene torches, draining fuel and other pollutant into the sea. Whose responsibility is that? I'd contend, the Indian government. They have pricing power over their own scrapping operations.
If India passes laws the bussiness will move elsewhere and the Indian workers will starve. As I said, the choice is poison your land, or starve. This model can be applied to most exported environmental problems. People don't care about 20 years down the road when they are starving now. Endangered animals are food, rainforrests are lumber. What do they care if the world goes belly up in 2100 if they are dying next week.
(2) They could use their governance structure to institute fair wage policies; they could unite against the United States, if necessary, by forceful overthrowing of their governments so they can institute protectionist trade barriers.
This takes around 50-100 years to happen.
The issue is that the people who have control over resources outside the U.S. are not exercising such control effectively. There are ways, to send jolts into the U.S. economy simply by changing oil output levels. There are other levers. For example, China could vastly increase the value of its currency against the U.S. dollar by leveraging the trade deficit. They just hadn't done it, because they want to continue to sell Chinese workers out at those poverty wages. China doesn't have a democratic government. It would not be too difficult to organize one, especially if the vast army saw what they could do if they disobeyed the Party and instead obeyed the People.
But if China raised the price of its workers firms would just move the "Nike Boat" to a different port where the workers would work for less. The end result being the Chineese workers all starving because they paved over their farmland for factories.
BTW, I really think Nike should have a floating factory that could move to the lowest wages.
Okay, so what is your grief? They couldn't repay their debt and renegotiated their repayment schedule. Just like United Airlines, American Airlines, and the Wheeling & Lake Erie Railroad did. Permanent bond ratings are permanent until repealed. How long have you been in management? Do you know how to manage your creditor relationships?
If India passes laws the businesses will move elsewhere and the Indian workers will starve. As I said, the choice is poison your land, or starve. This model can be applied to most exported environmental problems.
Precisely where would the scrappers move if India, Pakistan, and China moved to legislate? Is moving an operation cost neutral? If you legislate in such a way that makes the cost of the move cheaper than the compliance in any given year, but tighten up the legislation progressively, do you think people will still move? Businesses are far less nimble than you realize, and I'm a policy enterpreuner (to borrow a term from the 90's).
[Overthrowing governments] takes around 50-100 years to happen.
Precisely how long did it take for the Russian Revolution to occur? [The answer: approximately 15 years by most accounts, from a Tzarist government to basically a Stalin government.]
But if China raised the price of its workers firms would just move the "Nike Boat" to a different port where the workers would work for less.
Have you ever heard of "stranded assets"? And what happens when the Chinese workers who inherited the abandoned Nike equipment goes into business making shoes and not have to pay capital costs, is competing a sweatshop with all new equipment who is still paying off the capital? Come on, Mike, you are supposed to be an economist.
AEM7
Two years ago I might have agreed with you, but after I spent a year trying to persuade a Midwestern girl to move to the coast with me and then she had the decency to go sleep with a local auto mechanic (this is after we promised each other not to sleep with people anymore until we were to be married)... I have three words for that Midwestern bitch: PURE YOUR ASS.
My condolences, AEM.
The mechanic guy has my respect, by the way. He was real nice to her, and I'm not sure I could have done the same thing. Hick chicks should date hicks, because their lifestyles fit together better!
AEM7
I'm not sure about all four. I'm happy, and my girlfriend is (I think) happy apart from the fact that I sometimes have some stress issues (but then, who doesn't)? The mechanic guy as far as I know is still going around screwing lots of young femmes (he has a daughter with his previous wife, and after marrying her out of high school they divorced when she was 25 -- not bad for a high school marriage), and the Midwestern cow, well, she moved about 100 miles away (from the town in which all this happened) when she went to college, and I'm not sure who she's with now, but make no mistake: she'll find someone, and it'll be someone who she could walk all over. Those guys do exist, and they deserve her!
AEM7
Which means there will be less money to fight a war on the homefront; the current flu epidemic. People are dying in the U.S and there is not enough flu vaccines to go around, and yet Bush approved spending $87 BILLION to rebuild a country 15,000 miles away.
About 80-95% of that $87 BILLION will go to U.S. companies, employees, or investors. That's at least $60 BILLION in a U.S. economic stimulus package, approved through the backdoor. If those same U.S. companies, employees, and investors would donate some of their earnings from war-related efforts to paying for flu vaccine, we might not have this crisis. Unfortunately, U.S. companies, employees, and investors are too stupid, so they have to be fooled with an excuse such as rebuilding a country or fighting against terrorism.
AEM7
By the way, out of that 87 billion dollars, how does paying to train middle managers in iraq stimulate our economy? How does building a cell phone network and establish zip codes help my wallet? I hope those subdivisions that part of the 87 billion is earmarked for helps me out a little. I need it.
American personnel employed in developing training material, transporting training material, transmitting training material, and actually training personel in Iraq, with associated costs associated with logistics of getting out there (U.S. airlines and U.S. steamship operators).
How does building a cell phone network and establish zip codes help my wallet?
U.S. firms collect licence fees. U.S. firms design the equipment, which are then manufactured by companies in Asia owned by U.S. investors.
I hope those subdivisions that part of the 87 billion is earmarked for helps me out a little. I need it.
What line of business are you in?
AEM7
Since before the birth of America, war has been a profitable enterprise. Why? Businessmen hosing the government with anything, materials they dont' need, substandard materials, etc. Take a look at the civil war, people became millionaires by selling faulty ammunitions(sp?) to the union. We aren't talking about trickle down economics about employees buying shoes and socks or going to the local pub and spending money. I want to know what happens when we have to pay back the 87billion dollars from this spend and not tax administration.
Not much. Hyperinflation results, people lost their life savings that were in the banks, but anybody who owned any property do okay. Anyone who has more wealth than they could reasonably use (i.e. in stocks and shares, in property they do not reside) have their wealth stripped away by mobs.
Currency failure is the ultimate tool for redistributing resources.
AEM7
87 billion will go a long way for High Speed Rail networks that will not only create periment jobs in their constuction and operation, but will also serve to revitalize decaying urban centers, reduce pollution and drop gasoline prices by reducing demand.
Holy crap, we got back on topic, I don't believe it.
Can you say NIMBIES? I'd like to see you try ot spend $87 billion on infrastructure and not get called on it by political naysayers. This nation is one of naysayers, and now you naysayers are finding out the costs of nymbism. Development is going abroad with Federal money. Serves you right, NIMBIES!
AEM7
As far as Big Bush goes. I was starting to like the man when he let Rumsfield blow everything up. The second he stopped Rumsfield having control and is playing into sissie polictics, it's all over now. The situation went from good to intolerable in the mid-east, making sure we have to pay at least 30-40% tax rate 15-30 years form now because of this not-tax and spend policy, and dropping the steel tariffs because of even more lil sissy foreign politcs. Big Bush almost had me liking him when he tried to end the 15 year old "war" with Saddam. Everything else he's been doing is a joke.
Get this, the Democrats are supposed to be Tax and Spend right? Take a look at the Philadelphia Parking Authority after the all great Tom Ridge took control when he was governor. That department of graft's budget balooned out of control. And with the Republicans in control of everything else, we now spend $21,000 per household at the federal level while taking in only $17,000 each.
Don't tax, yet spend excessively.
I almost forget to mention my fav big bush problem. He decided to not fund the border patrol(plus all those federal grants to local law enforcement, hello new crime wave). Now we "process" people who get caught on the border, and tell them to go home on their own, but they just stick around, no border protections.
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Now lets get back on topic with my bullet train, I wanted to go to Orlando today, but its too damn annoying on I-4!!!!! I also want to go to Tampa a little later on, but the express bus sit's in grid-lock, my bullet train would serve as a commuter system here too!!!!
What we should be asking the Clintons is about Whitewater, where they pocketed their money while others lost their savings, an issue that was never satisfactorily resolved.
You are right about the class though. Clinton didnt have it, Shrub doesntthough his father did.
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Heh, now with the BLE merging with the Teamsters they can just cut out the middleman and block rail service directly.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12082003.shtml#Truckers
Incredible. The motoring industries are always fighting against rail as it effects their pocketbook. Three quarters of a million passengers could really benefit from rail but that will not be the case.
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Hmmm, I'll bet they'll try to blame the railroad for the automotive traffic signal being defective.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12082003.shtml#Traffic
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Until the next NIMBY assault.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12082003.shtml#Greenbush
Regarding the 2000 election, you can blame it on the media, but I prefer to blame the "winner take all" Electoral College system. I was not happy about the outcome, nor about the fact that it was ultimately decided in the Supreme Court. But I have to admit that James Baker did an outstanding job of upholding the result.
The winner would have to appeal to the majority of people. Democracy means government by the people, not by the states.
Technically yes. But in a broader sense America does embrace and advocate democratic principles.
Both Mike (on the left) and Fred (on the right) say that America is not a democracy, so who am I to argue?
But Alexis de Tocqueville, a "liberal" French aristocrat, visited America in 1831. He sought to answer the political riddle of the era: Why was it that democracy flourished in America? What was the secret of American success, and could it be brought home to France?
He answered the question by writing a book called "Democracy in America", which I confess I have not read. Was Tocqueville mistaken, or has America become less democratic since those days?
I think that was the original Greek meaning. By that definition you are right, and there are very few real democracies in that sense. Switzerland may be one. The system of voting on Propositions (referendums) in state elections (which I understand is not provided for in the Constitution) is another.
The Electoral College seems an anachronism in these days of instant communication, and the winner-take-all principle gives an unfair advantage to voters in small states. Government by elected officials does not require an Electoral College. But it would take a Constitutional Amendment ratified by 3/4 of states to abolish it.
No it does not, it gives them the advantage that they deserve.
"In all cases where a majority are united by a common interest or passion, the rights of the minority are in danger." --James Madison
In 2000, there is only one clear minority that received an advantage due to the electoral system: the minority of U.S. voters who favored Bush.
States are like nations. Each states deserves it's equal status.
What about other minorities, some of whom tend to live in large states?
That's what state legislatures are for. Too bad that the Supreme Court decided that states can't have geographic senates.
If that's how you feel, then you should be satisfied that each state elects a governor. Who cares about the president?
Each states [sic] deserves it's [sic] equal status.
Nations aren't equal.
That's what state legislatures are for. Too bad that the Supreme Court decided that states can't have geographic senates.
What does this have to do with electing a president?
Who would be the chief executive of the federation?
Nations aren't equal.
They are if they agree to become part of a federation.
What does this have to do with electing a president?
What makes electing a president different from other governmental matters?
The issue was decided long ago in the U.S., but not in the E.U.
"European Constitution Summit Collapses
A plan backed by France and Germany would replace the EU's complex, population-based voting system with a formula under which key decisions could be passed by a simple majority of 13 of the 25 members if they represent 60 percent of the EU's population.
Spain and Poland said the proposal concentrated too much power in the hands of EU's big four Germany, France, Britain and Italy. They want to keep a system that gives them almost as many votes as Germany, the union's biggest member. "
Associated Press 13 Dec 2003
This is not so. The National Government is a Federation of States. You are a citizen of a state, you vote in STATE ELECTIONS. The several states elect the president of the United States. This is the way the constitution was written. To change it would require an amendment to the constitution, and this will NEVER HAPPEN. It would require a vote of 2/3s of the STATES, and there are no small states that would vote for this, even though the electoral college leverages for the larger states.
What happens is that here in North Dakota, our 600,000 people get 3 electoral votes, or 200,000 people per electoral vote.
You add up the number of people in NY, divide it by the total number of Representatives and Senators for your state, and find out how much your vote is worth, compared to mine.
Elias
I was referring to the situation that would arise if there were no Electoral College.
here in North Dakota, our 600,000 people get 3 electoral votes
Small states are over-represented, and large states are under-represented, thanks to the Electoral College system.
This argument began when I tried to blame the Florida 2000 election fiasco on the "winner-take-all" method by which the Electoral College is appointed in that state. If Florida had appointed its Electoral College delegates by congressional district (as in Maine and Nebraska), that particular crisis would not have occurred. The Electoral College is written into the Constitution, but the winner-take-all system is not.
Also because of the Senate. The electoral college's has almost never affected the election, there are very few times that the winner of the popular vote did not win the electoral vote:
1824: Andrew Jackson (DR-TN) won the plurality of the popular vote (an irrelevant statistic, since many large states still had the legislature choose electors) and the plurality of the electoral vote, but because he did not win a majority of the latter, the House had to choose a President. voting by state, the winner was John Quincy Adams (DR-MA). Four years later, Jackson, now leading the new Democratic party against Adams' (a son of a former president) National Republicans (not the same party as the GOP) won the election.
1876: Rutherford B. Hayes (R-OH) lost the popular vote to Samuel J. Tilden (D-NY) but won the electoral vote. This earned him the nickname "Rutherfraud" B. Hayes. The deciding electoral votes were cast by a certain whang-shaped southern state, and the dispute was settled by a joint congressional/supreme court committee who voted the votes in favor of Hayes by voting along strict party lines. Hayes chose not to run again.
1888: Benjamin Harrison (R-OH) lost the popular vote to incumbent Grover Cleveland (D-NY) but lost the electoral vote. There was no controversy here. Cleveland supported lower tarrifs which were a popular issue only in southern states. The South voted overwhelmingly for Cleveland, but Harrison won more states but by smaller margins. Nevertheless, Cleveland defeated Harrison (the grandson of a former president) in 1892 for his second non-consecutive term.
2000: You know what happened.
No descendant of a former President has ever won the popular vote or served more than one term. No president who has had his descendant also become president has served more than one term (poor William H. Harrison served 31 days).
Note that I didn't mention 1800, because the electoral system was different then and not completely analogous to the modern system.
Since there were only 4 times historically when the electoral college did its job, if you consider it an undemocratic institution, it really doesn't make much of a difference.
However if you don't like the electoral college, you must really hate the Senate, which is of course far more important to running the country.
In order to abolish the electoral college, one need only 3/4 of the states to approve. To abolish the Senate, all states must consent.
Fat chance of that. And that's the way I think it should be. There is no part of the Constitution that I think is objectionable except for the 3/5 of all other persons bit, but that has been superseded.
Of course you are right that the election of the Senate is open to the same criticism, that all states are considered equal regardless of their population. And I agree that there is no chance of anything changing, except that some more states might drop the winner-take-all system of appointing the Electoral College.
Whether the system is "democratic" seems to be debatable; it depends what you mean by democracy. Fred and Mike say that America is not a democracy, but I am inclined to think that in some sense it is. Besides, Tocqueville thought so in 1831!
It is not a traditional democracy by the Athenian definition.
Maine and Nebraska have a system whereby electors are chosen by congressional districts, and 2 electors are chosen statewide (you only vote once though). In theory, one can say that Wyoming, Vermont, Alaska, North Dakota, South Dakota, Idaho, Delaware and Montana work the same way (they all have only 1 Representative and thus no congressional districts).
BTW, I thought it was called the electrical college.
how re-volting.
The Constitution says otherwise. The electoral college protects the system from being dominated by thew interests of high-density population centers and states. We already pay far too much attention to the needs of California and Florida as opposed to Nebraska or Nevada.
You are right that the "winner takes all" system is not mandated by the Constitution. Each state can decide for itself.
How stupid are you? We've already established (in a post by American Pig, responding to Train Dude) that there aren't even that many voters in the entire Florida Panhandle.
Even though Pigs went through this a year ago, and you'll probably ignore this again and spout the same lies a year later.
According to the 2000 Census, there were 671,445 persons aged 18-years or older in the 10 Florida counties in the Panhandle.
According to your logic, fully a 3rd of these people waited at home for the last of 15 or so hours that the polls are open, and immediately decided not to go when the TV told them not to. Does that make any sense to you?
In any event, only 180,221 registered voters in all 10 counties did not turn out to vote. This comprises 67.32% turnout among registered voters, consistent with Florida statewide statistics of 70% for that election that year.
2000 Florida CST election resultsCountyPopulation over 18BushGoreOtherTurnoutRegisteredAbsent
Bay112575386371885020335952064.179274933229Calhoun999628732155228525672.6672341978Escambia2251397302940958715412114170.8417100449863Gulf1043735462389630656566.1699233358Holmes1427949852154402754173.09103172776Jackson363069138686814641747072.87239736503Okaloosa128365520431692425457151264.2411132039808Santa Rosa86474362481279516415068465.167777827094Walton318061217656377241853765.86281449607Washington1606849832796574835358.18143586005Totals6714452376581115261739536657967.32546800180221
Sources: United States Bureau of Census, Census 2000: American Factfinder; Florida Department of State: Election Statistics, 2000. Care of American Pig Subtalk Post 493013
Look at who you are responding to, you answered your own question. It's hopeless, Mr C. Bits has turned to the dark side and can never turn back. He's been lost to supply side economies, corporate welfare, and their republican ilk.
This assumes a nearly 100% turnout. Almost completely impossible
Also remember that that number is ONLY of people over 18, it does not include convicted felons, non-citizens who cannot vote or people who aren't registered to vote.
And how many other Republican voters didn't vote because your liberal networks prematurely called the state for Gore even though his lead at the time was less than 3%.
Irrelevant. When the West Coast polls were still open, the election was still up for grabs.
the liberal networks refused to call Georgia, North Carolina and Kentuckly for Bush at the same time even though he was leading by at least seven points in all three states.
Being 7 points in the lead means nothing if only 20% of the precincts are reporting. Still, how much of an effect do you think this had?
*FDLE-- Florida Department of Law Enforcement (Florida's State Police)
ALLOWED TO VOTE?
Name one thing that prevented them from voting? Did the liberal media go to the polls and forcibly close them?
I DO NOT see any difference between any mainstream media networks, including FOX. When you conservatives say you hate things liberal, does that mean all things left-wing, or does that mean you despise the ideology of liberalism in general, and support socialism or fascism? Please be specific when you mention these terms, as I get confused 8-)
The car was designed by Dr. Ferdinand Porsche, not Hitler (I'd almost like to see a car designed by that idiot). And last I heard there was some questioning as to whether the design was actually commissioned by Hitler or if it was something Porsche just pulled out of his wastepaper basket in response to Hitler's command.
I certainly have seen plenty of Jewish people driving Porsches, so why is a VW off limits and a Porsche kosher, so to speak?
Peace,
ANDEE
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Looked like minoriphobes used trumped up environmental concearns to block the rail line. What a pack of ass holes.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12082003.shtml#Fall
When pluralizing something that ends with a y one drops the y and replaces it with an IES except when they y follows an e.
As Killer and I stated, NIMBY is not a word but an acronym. The letters in an acronym NEVER CHANGE because one does not spell nor “pluralize” an acronym. Just face it, Pig – you are wrong on this score.
Does anyone remember what posh meant?
AP could make an argument that nimby (lower case) has completed its transition, therefore the -ies plural is applicable.
John
This is probably as much an urban legend as A rigid, B limp.
AEM7
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What are they drunk???
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12082003.shtml#How
P.S.: What does NIMBY stand for??
Isn't that in the FAQ yet?
I hope that was meant as a joke. Otherwise, select the words in parentheses.
(Frequently Asked Questions - link)
Commuter rail systems, Pratt said, failed in cities such as Detroit and Philadelphia, in part because of the cities economic woes and also because they were 'borderline too small' to support commuter rail in the first place.
I hadn't heard that commuter rail had failed here in Philly. Funny this is, earlier in the same article we read:
Passenger rail has succeeded with tens of thousands of daily riders in places such as Los Angeles, Chicago, Boston, Dallas, San Diego and Philadelphia.
So which is it?
Mark
Morning rush: Full trains, standee's, and some of those express trains on the R3 and R5, woo boy, it's actually exciting.
Off-peak: service still all not to bad compared to some bus systems in other area's.
Almost always on time, faster than driving, comfortable accomodations, and unlike driving, i get to my destination the same time everyday(I thought people liked this feature, how else can you explain corporate homogenousness and franchises).
Haven't been on anything else that I liked and would stand by as much as their RR, I wonder what their defination of a success is? :)
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http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12082003.shtml#Houston
After all I think Houston is imitating their neighbor DART, which has to be one of the most overengineered* LRT systems in exsistance!
*Not that that's a bad thing, I just hope they fufill all their projected extentions and use all that they have built effectively
Mark
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AH, not if the NIMBIES have anything to say about it.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12082003.shtml#NewHampshire
Only in the most dire traffic jams will people abandon their cars for a bus. The only time I am familar with is in Seattle, when the eastside building explosion reduced the two floating bridges across Lake Washington to parking lots between 6 and 10 am in the morning and 4 and 7 pm at night. Then KC Metro managed to get bus lanes across the bridges and people actually began giving up their cars for a bus ride into the 3rd Ave BusTunnel every morning. Now those buses are packed and they're looking to run a monorail across the northern bridge, SR520, to provide near-heavy rail capacity to the people in Bellevue and it's vicinity.
It has been demonstrated time and again in the west, people who are caught in traffic everyday will respond positively to a rail line that enables them to leave their car parked in the garage for the week. Yet as I said above, I am only familiar with one instance where people actually abandoned their cars for a bus system.
And also you never refuted my statement that people will leave their cars for buses, please name one case outside Seattle in the early 1990s where people left their cars en masse as seen with upstart transit agencies like Metrolink, DART, and TriMet.
Also, when people are commuting to work, it's generally one person per car, at the most 2. So atleast 25 cars off the road for one bus. Seems like an improvemtn to me.
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Geez, this week's episode is really MBTA heavy.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12082003.shtml#MBTA
Commuter Rail: 30% of daily passenger traffic
Funding: 80%
"Studies of how to improve transit system": 0 passenger traffic
Funding: 15%
Inner-city Transit: 70% daily passenger traffic
Funding: 5%
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Geez, this week's episode is really MBTA heavy.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12082003.shtml#Fill
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::slaps forehead:: Its like EVERYBODY is a NIMBY these days.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12082003.shtml#Town
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As they discovered after a theft at SMS, the people who do this are not usually Railfans, but long distance truckers who want distinctivr airhorns.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12082003.shtml#Thieves
Link
I'm glad the MTA's people say they can stay within $6.3 Billion the rest of the way. They have lots of credibility...
To paraphrase Senator Everett Dirksen, "A billion here, a billion there, soon we'll be talking about real money."
Arti
Arti
Arti
But with the nearly unbearable crush of auto and truck traffic...see Canal or 34th Streets on any midday...maybe it's time to revisit the concept.
Possibly we could connect the Queens Midtown and Lincoln Tunnels, with provision for a crosstown subway/trolley line, and ramps up to a main avenue or two?
I've seen crazier ideas.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I don't see any need for extra ramps to Manhattan.
Arti
This you cannot do...
You need trucks to bring in such things as food, Pepsi, toilet paper, pencils and all other accuterments of daily living.
The CARS we do NOT need. ELIMINATE ALL CARS.
Trucks are run by business people, who can all sit down at a table with a map of every on-street parking place, and the can negeotiate with each other as to who may park where and when. It is no more complicated than assigning airliners to gates at the terminal.
Trucks and Taxi-cabs ought to be the only private vehicles operating in the CBD.
Elias
On the car situation, not everyone can take public transit, however,most can. Those who can should.
Mark
On the car situation, not everyone can take public transit, however,most can. Those who can should.
Why the heck *can't* everybody take public transportation???????
Out here public transportation is *only* for handicapped people!
It is certainly easier and safer than taking your own vehicle, especially in such a crowded city.
The CBD is not like the suburbs... in the city (CBD) you do not pile into a car to go to the supermarket or to K-Mart. Almost any market that you would go to *can* deliver for you.
And as I have said, I do make exception for people who *actually* live in that part of the city.
Elias
Elias
Yes, but IINM, it is also a technical designation having things to do with federal programs and census.
In Manhattan the CBD ends at 59th Street or 60th Street or something like that, and that is a city zoning thing that prohibits business (ie big corporate businesses) north of that line. The only businesses north of the CBD in Manhattan are "residential support" businesses, or other small businesses.
Elias
The Trucks cannot (as I have expounded elsewhere) go away. All private cars must be excluded from the CBD.
Rather than putting tolls on the Free Bridges, I'd simply CLOSE THEM.
Brooklyn Bridge = Bus, LRV and Pedestrian use only.
Manhattan Bridge = Subway, Bus and Taxi rush hours, Trucks included non-rush.
Williamsburg = Subway, Bus and Taxi rush hours, Trucks included non-rush.
Queensboro = Bus, LRV and Pedestrian only rush hours, Trucks and Taxis included non-rush.
Brooklyn Battery Tunnel = $10.00 all vehicles (no tractor trailers) 0500-1100 hours. $5.00 non rush, $20 for tractor-trailers.
Queesn Midtown Tunnel = $10.00 all vehicles (no tractor trailers) 0500-1100 hours. $5.00 non rush, $20 for tractor-trailers.
Holland Tunnel = $20.00 all vehicles (no tractor trailers) 0500-1100 hours. $10.00 non rush, $50 for tractor-trailers.
Lincoln Tunnel:
0500-0600 4 Lanes East, 2 West - Busses Only Eastbound.
0600-0900 6 Lanes East, 0 West - Busses Only
0900-1000 4 Lanes East, 2 West - Busses Only Eastbound.
1000-1100 4 Lanes East, 2 West - Busses and Trucks only Eastbound.
1100-1300 4 Lanes East, 2 West - No Restrictions.
1300-1500 2 Lanes East, 4 West - No Restrictions.
1500-1600 2 Lanes East, 4 West - Busses and Trucks only Westbound.
1600-2000 0 Lanes East, 6 West - Busses Only
2000-2100 2 Lanes East, 4 West - Busses and Trucks only Westbound.
2100-0500 3 Lanes East, 3 West - No Restrictions.
Geo. W. Bridge = No Changes.
60th Street = Restricted Access south of 60th Street, Permits Required.
Elias
Good Question. Maybe GWB or HT? Maybe I can only do 5 in and 1 out, but I had asked the people at Martz, and they layup their busses in Manhattan between runs, of course they *do* have outbound busses at that hour.
OK, I'll leave it up to the varrious bus companies to decide this.
Elias
50 bux for the rigs? Eh, maybe 15.
Holland is the one at the end of canal, rite? If so, this should definately have a bus lane.
Check it out... they are ALREADY paying about $36.
Interesting in concept, but different in operation. Follow Chicago's lead on this.
Existing ground level streets remain as they are "Trucks Only" New streets above these, (with new sidewalks and with new enterances into buildings) creates a new upper level as if *that* were ground level.
Heck, in some places in Chicago stteets are three levels deep!
But according to my plan, the new streets would be pedestrians and LRV only, I'd still keep all cars out of the CBD.
Elias
Moses also proposed a Mid Manhattan Expressway in the 1960's to connect the Midtown and Lincoln Tunnels - to run along the south side of 30th Street. Unlike the Lower Manhattan Expressway this one never got beyond preliminary planning. Again, the potential loss of jobs, taxes, and businesses caused the proposal to die. One legacy of it is the Lincoln Tunnel's connections to 30th Street, which would have been the ramp to the Mid Manhattan Expressway.
In my humble opinion, both ideas were bad in the 1960s and would be even worse ideas now.
Also, to go across on 34th Street, you'd have to drop the roadway down about 5-6 stories, wouldn't you? I once saw a drawing of the area beneath Herald Square -- the intertwining of the IND, BMT, PATH, LIRR/Amtrak, utility lines, water tunnels, etc. was incredible. I think you'd have to go all the way below that, which seems pretty deep for a 1-2 mile stretch of roadway.
I'm sure you'd have similar problems along Canal St -- though, likely not to the same degree.
CG
Right. Of all the places to try to run people through, Manhattan is the worst. No matter how many lanes it is, such an highway would be overwhelmed by the number of drivers for whom it were to become the best route.
The Access to the Region's Core study included an alternative for running freight trains through Midtown, by adding a freight tunnel from New Jersey through Midtown to Sunnyside Yards in addition to the passenger tracks. It turned it down.
One of the big sources of roadway congestion in NYC is all
of the truck traffic which _has_ to enter the city because there
is no easy way to get freight cars into the city from Jersey
and points south. To me this should be a lot higher priority
than, say, a downtown transit hub or running the LIRR into GCT.
I'd rather get the people on trains than get the freight on trains to make more room for people in cars.
ELIMINATE CARS!
You must have the trucks, local goods must arrive and depart. They cannot do this by train.
But there is no reason why on God's green earth that ANYBODY should beable to drive a car into Manhattan. (Save for those who ACTUALLY Live there.)
Elias
That's a lot of nonsense. Much as I love trains, there are many trips it is not feasible to make without a car. I live in Riverdale. It's a very long bus/subway ride to where I live. Metro-North is a very long walk or requires a parking fee, and only goes to 42d St. Off-peak, the service is only hourly. The express bus only goes to 34th st, only on certain avenues. If I have to go shopping, lugging a lot of packages, especially on a weekend or evening when traffic is less; or the the theater at night, when bus/train service is chancy; or to a doctor's appointment on the upper east or west side, I will often drive. I pick times when I won't be in rush hour traffic. I often get a parking space on the street at a meter or even for free, depending on "alternate side" rules. I get there usually quicker than transit, with essentially door-to-door service. No transit system can be all things to all people.
And who the heck is going to go shopping for things that they cannot carry anywhere south of 60th Street? And shops that do sell big items also deliver!
Heck, I lived in brooklyn, and never owned a car. A&S always delivered.
What's the Big Deal!
Elias
I managed quite well, thank you.
I do not think that you can convince me that a private car is needed in the CBD. If you had many packages to cary, such as you describe, I'd hire a cab. I am not tossing the cabs out. Yeah a cab costs something. But then so does a car!
Elias
Another example. My son works in Manhattan, lives in Brooklyn. I was going to visit him for dinner one day. He called and asked if I could swing by in the car to a florist in E. 28th St. He had bought a large plant - probably too big to fit in a cab. Since I have a station wagon, it would fit. So I drove into Manhattan in PM rush hour. Since I was going against the flow, I got there in 20 minutes. I pulled up to the florist, we loaded the car, and we took off to Brooklyn. I'll be damned if I'm going to have to pay extra for shipping or trucks or taxis just to satisfy some Utopian dream of a carless city.
Don't tell me he should've bought the plant in Brooklyn. It was near his office, it was on clearance, he got a deal.
Mark
Refer to original post:
>>In the 1960s the community (soon to be known as Soho) succeeded --justifiably--in scotching a mid-Manhattan Expressway<<<
RobertMosesFantalk?
and
>>>Possibly we could connect the Queens Midtown and Lincoln Tunnels, with provision for a crosstown subway/trolley line, and ramps up to a main avenue or two?<<<
Such a tunnel could also be adapted for rapid transit use.
I would urge you to read the post next time.
www.forgotten-ny.com
This is not so.
*I* can design LRV (Trolley) systems that will work and can be accepted as a part of New York.
My major premise:
1) is the EXCLUSION of private cars from the CBD.
2) Close Broadway to all traffic: Pedestrians and LRV only.
3) No-Parking all Avenue Right Lanes, Replace with LRV.
4) LRVs are three cars long, double desker units.
5) LRVs are all free.
6) LRVs are handled on the Brooklyn and Queensboro Bridges.
Trains Busses and Subways bring commuters into the city.
Buses and Free LRVs circulate people in the CBD.
Elias
Why do you need buses? You've got LRTs, buses would be wholly superflous.
4) LRVs are three cars long, double desker units.
4. [I Have yet] to see a bi-level LRV. I think running them in single level consits should work fine
Heck, it's New York, if this were to be done, it might make sense for the MTA to build their own LRTs of their own design for the operation. But I agree, it might be a better idea to just get some off the shelf single level low floor LRTs and run them instead. Even in that case, NYC could still build their own cars under license to the original manufacturer.
Also here are some, as you put it, bi-level LRT operators (assumming of course that Trams and LRT's are the same, and I see very few differences):
http://world.nycsubway.org/perl/show?23029
http://world.nycsubway.org/perl/show?10363
5) LRVs are all free.
5. Impossible. There should be some small fee, say, 75 cents to a dollar
Nothing is impossible, especially when it comes to fare control. If you stop thinking of public transit as a social nicety and instead think of it as an imperative utility for a city, then there is no reason why it should not be free. If the island is devoid of cars, and the only ways to get around are the LRT and the subway, then it would make sense to make the LRT free, it'll leave room on the subways for people from the other boroughs. If you really want, do POP with an onboard TVM feeding out tickets at an elevated price (say $2.50 for 2 hours) and curb side machines selling tickets for a $1.50. Would a 75 cent fare even cover the cost of collecting the fare? Also how would you collect the fare, fareboxes? fare controlled platforms? POP? Or something else?
6) LRVs are handled on the Brooklyn and Queensboro Bridges.
6. And the Willy B!!!
I won't argue with that, perhaps the Willy B should be in the MOS-2 section of this plan, with MOS-1 including a refurbishing of the trolley terminal at the foot of the Willy B's manhattan side, as well as provision made for trolleys to be switched between the terminal and the manhattan through routes.
There's LIRR and NJT for that! Why do you want to fill up the streets after they've been emptied? Are you working for the highway lobby?
I'd have to question the sanity of any person who subjected themselves to a bus trip from Far Rock to NY, or, worse, Morristown. Both places have adequate rail service, and Morristown has commuter rail operations that most suburbs can only look longingly at.
Also NJT and MTA would never run a joint bus line, that just would never happen. The most you can hope for is some more express buses and such comming from rail-poor areas of NJ and the usual expresses that MTA runs to be increased slightly. However, if LRT's run without car interference, then they could come very close to beating the running time of buses that run the express routes, especially if FDR drive were to remain open to cars.
I was merely using Morristown as an example as you obviously fail to understand. Either way, a out of city bus down that route to somewhere in NJ is perfect. flatbush-manhattan bridge-canal st-holland tunnel-nj is pretty much a straight shot on the same street.
Plus, what the hell do you mean, fill up the streets? What, just cuz it's a bus means it's gonna fill up the streets? What the hell organization are you from? Also, with more public transit, means less cars on the road, which means travel times are shortened.
Also, why does it have to be MTA/NJT? I didn't even think about MTA wen reading anything on this thread. MTA would probably never go into something like this. It would probably be another transit agency.
Then I am hereby calling you insane, congratulations!
I take Greyhound everywhere
Those run on highways. Also Greyhound was a partner with Yellow Coaches and General Motors in National City Lines, which destroyed countless billions of dollars of our transit infrastructure in the 1940s and 50s so that people would buy cars. NCL's sucess allowed the highway lobby to be formed, thus, yes, in my estimation, you are working for the highway lobby.
I was merely using Morristown as an example as you obviously fail to understand.
And I aparantly still fail to understand because you have not provided any reason whatsoever for New York to Morristown bus service which would be redundant with NJT rail service here.
Plus, what the hell do you mean, fill up the streets? What, just cuz it's a bus means it's gonna fill up the streets?
It's a bus, filling up the street is exactly what it's going to do. Brother Elias has just proposed a plan by which the streets of Manhattan would be cleared in a way never seen before. However, you are immediately taking space that should be given to the LRTs that will benefit the people of Manhattan who are losing their ability to have cars close to them and giving it to buses carrying people from outside Manhattan who have every right to own a car and for whom the subways are a much better bet.
What the hell organization are you from?
Actually I am not a member of any organization as yet. I was thinking about joining the Monorail Society, as well as the Philadelphia Chapter of ERA or the NRHS. I also was thinking about joining DVARP or NARP, but DVARP mostly deals with SEPTA commuter railroads, in which I really have little intrest, and NARP just seems to be propping up Amtrak as the one and only passenger rail operator, which I disagree with.
Also, with more public transit, means less cars on the road, which means travel times are shortened.
Well yes, but these buses would be traveling right along with the many cars present on NJ and NY outside Manhattan roads, so they would be very slow once they got there. Thus it would be a better idea to focus on rail travel as opposed to buses, especially those that would leave the borough of manhattan. The Q35 or whatever can still cross into manhattan on the queensboro, but it's a bad idea to run express routes into manhattan from the outer edges of the city 'just because we can'.
Yea, it's better to focus on rail travel, but rail travel can not take you everywhere. Just like freight trains take goods to a certain area where trucks make the local deliveries, passenger trains go to a certain area where people transfer to buses.
LD buses are needed as well. OK, just b/c you feel like being a pain in the ass, lets change the bus route. Rockaways-Flatbush av-manhattan bridge-downtown-lincoln tunnel-passaic-patterson. OK? Tell me how to get a one seat ride from Brooklyn to Paterson? Hell, give me a one seat ride from downtown! There is none!!! Face it, LD buses are needed.
Take Bonanza for example. They operate from Danbury to PABT(and other locations). The routing parallels the NH line of MN. It's still very successful. Greyhound to Stamford and Bridgeport from NYC is also very successful.
I take it you have never been to Hong Kong...
OK imagine what I am looking at. Start with a low-riding LRV, but remember that at intersections, trucks as tall as 12 feet or more have to pass under the wires. 16' wire clearance.
The convergence of these two requirements, suggests the posibility of double decker cars.
As far as the price goes...
Yes, Free!
First most people already have a free transfer from the subway,
second you'd have to hire a collector for each car, AND restrict the number of doors that could be used for entry.
FREE means only the one operator, and boarding at all doors.
Elias
Also, I forgot about Hong Kong. Saw the bi-level trolleys in Rush Hour 2, lol.
I take it you have never been to Hong Kong...
OK imagine what I am looking at. Start with a low-riding LRV, but remember that at intersections, trucks as tall as 12 feet or more have to pass under the wires. 16' wire clearance.
The convergence of these two requirements, suggests the posibility of double decker cars.
As far as the price goes...
Yes, Free!
First most people already have a free transfer from the subway,
second you'd have to hire a collector for each car, AND restrict the number of doors that could be used for entry.
FREE means only the one operator, and boarding at all doors.
Elias
Better still, the Brooklyn-Battery tunnel, so that Red Hookers errrmmm people from a part of Brooklyn West of the F Line and the Gowanus Canal can get a nice quick ride into Manhattan without going through downtown Brooklyn first.
That would be an interesting experiment. Any opinions on whether an extension of the M22 to Red Hook would work?
There is absolutely no sentiment anyplace in Manhattan or the rest of the city for a Mid-Manhattan Expressway. How much land would you have to take for something like that?
Or for light rail
Well, there goes my experiment in posting efficiency.
I agree. That portion of that thread belongs in "SubTalk Stupid".
Possibly we could connect the Queens Midtown and Lincoln Tunnels, with provision for a crosstown subway/trolley line, and ramps up to a main avenue or two?]
Except for that trolley remark, Robert Moses would love you. He once stated in a TV interview that cities exist solely as conduits for suburban traffic, and are not entitled to seek or achieve their own viability.
Instead of building MORE ROADS, they ought to CLOSE ROADS AND STREETS.
The rush hour Lincoln Tunnel ought to be ALL 6 LANES in the rush direction, and be restricted to BUSSES ONLY.
It is easier to build great parking facilities in the Meadowlands and to bus people the rest of the way than to build one inch of new highway in the CBD.
Eliminate all traffic from Broadway, and make it a pedestrian / LRV mall.
Eliminate all right-curb parking on all Avenues, and use the lane for LRVs.
Build public transit, and eliminate cars.
Elias
We seriously NEED public transit, and we should follow Europe's example. There should also be a law restricting families to only ONE car, powered by hydrogen, and to create a no-build zone at city limits so that suburban sprawl can be stopped. Eventually, over time, people will be persuaded to abandon their suburban communities and move back into the urban centers. Yes, this sounds crazy, but it's either this or the human race dies out due to destroying their own environment.
This is the MOST unrealistic and UNCONSTITUTIONAL suggestion. It cann never happen.
My idea to colde the CBD to cars may seem unrealistic to some, but not to others, and it certainly is NOT unconstitutional, especially since we do make provisions for people who *actually* live in lower Manhattan.
Elias
Very likely, but there are worthy sentiments behind the suggestion. There is nothing in the Constitution to prevent legislators from exacting payment from those who damage the environment, and that includes most of us. Let the polluters pay!
Yea, I can agree to this. I'd object to using the tax code to accomplish this. I'll not go into ideas on taxation. If you need a fee to be assessed for environmental damage, then call it such, and not a tax credit for not poluting or for polution abaitment. People will just hide their money in any tax holes that you create, and it will serve neither the budget nor the enviromement.
Elias
Main "kink" is, that hydrogen doesn't exist in nature.
Arti
Gasoline is very flammable, too. Can you imagine the kind of disaster a zeppelin filled with 93-octane would produce?
The problem with the Hindenburg was that there was so much hydrogen...much more than any car would ever carry, plus the fact that the skin was poorly grounded against static electrcity (which probably ignited the blaze), and on top of that the fact that that same skin bore reflective paint containing powdered aluminum...rocket fuel, basically. For all of these reasons, plus modern technologies which make handling pressurized hydrogen much safer, make comparing the safety of a modern hydrogen fuel-cell car to the Hindenburg and not very informative exercise.
As Arti said, the problem is producing hydrogen. Separating elemental hydrogen (H2) from hydrogen-containing compounds, like water, requires a good deal of energy in the first place. What's more, many schemes propose to separate hydrogen from methane, according to the chemical reaction:
CH4 + O2 --> 2 H2 + CO2
As you can see, this produces carbon dioxide (CO2), the green house gas we're trying to avoid producing in the first place! It's obstacles like this that have to be overcome before hydrogen becomes a viable energy source.
Mark
Oh, the humanity!
What's interesting about the Hindenburg is that despite the extremely severe fire that resulted, most of the people onboard got out safely.
That's not to say hydrogen isn't dangerous, it is, it was just given a bad wrap. CNG, LNG, and many of the new 'alternative fuels' are every bit as explosive as hydrogen, but because they don't have imagery like the hindenburg attached to them. People feel no danger riding in a CNG bus, and some even drive LNG cars, but they might frown on a hydrogen combustion or fuel cell bus, since thats dangerous! Perhaps once some depot worker takes a cigarette break in an inopertune location (like next to the CNG pumps), and some bus depot goes up in a fireball we'll we won't have the disparity of imagery between the two fuel sources.
The Hindenburg
I"m not sure if my memory is right about this, but I think I heard that the color was being wrong for a fire fueled mostly by hydrogen. Burning hydrogen is an eerie pink-orange-colored flame, that you'll never mistake for anything else.
Mark
Sure, in a perfect world, but till the present order changes, the $$$$ is with autos and the city will continue to accommodate them. The mayor just lfted the one-occupant car ban, so the streets will be more choked than ever.
The idea should be to get these cars someplace where they won't be killing pedestrians or deafening them with their noise. The Mosesian idea of building more expressways obviously failed. I'm looking for a way to reroute cars and trucks that are passing through the island...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Da Hui
Look at the grill behind the rear wheel, that brown stuff is probably some 500 or so leaves stuck to it.
Thus Buses Suck
NCL Sucks
Trolleys, LRVs, Trams, Streetcars or whatever, rule!
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
He's talking about this: http://www.railfanwindow.com/gallery/worktrains/PDRM3176
The Sperry Rail Service cars are usually there to check the rails and make sure they're straight, in gauge and so on. There's all kinds of instrumentation on the insides to measure lateral forces and such. It's basically like the Track Geometry Cars that NJT, LIRR, and Amtrak run. Out west the freight railroad contract Sperry to come check their tracks.
I'm not sure what NYCTA's relationship with Sperry is, if that's a NYCTA crew in the cab, or if it's a Sperry crew trained to operate on the NYCTA subway? Also, does NY contract Sperry to check their rails? Finally, why doesn't NYC just get their own track geometry vehicle?
Either way, the question has been answered.
Sperry was one of the inventors of the gyrocompass. The former Sperry plant in Lake Success, NY was home to the Secretariat of the United Nations from 1946-51.
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
While I'm all for light rail, this really isn't enough to justify spending 1 billion dollars. If you were talking 20K, then we might have something.
I also think they should use some of the North Shore route but if you really want to attract riders, you'll have to run the Light Rail right by the mall.
My route would start at St George and end at the Staten Island Mall.
Light rail…by 2015? Hmm, the heavy-rail option could be restored in one year.
And what about facilities (can’t use the SIR facilities), spare-parts inventories, separation from the general railway network (the SIR is still an FRA railroad)? What about power systems (are you going to erect DC catenary on the North Shore now)? What about the high platform versus low platform situation (highs already exist on the North Shore line)? What about the fact that LRVs make things inflexible?—you can’t run a LRV down the South Shore and you won’t be able to run a heavy-rail train up the North Shore if LRT is thrown into the mix. And if the line still remains under FRA jurisdiction, LRT service will have to cease at 10 pm.
More hype, and more bad attempts to get mileage out of the dated LRT “buzzword”. LRT would be more expensive in the long run.
I suspect that ultiimately the best option might link the SIRT row (both current SIR and revived North Shore segment) to New Jersey LRT routes
I am not sure that NJ Transit plans to make their LRT network an interstate one. Besides, if there was such a link, I would still prefer the North Shore line to be heavy-rail, for the reasons I already stated, such as minimizing inventories of rolling stock and spare parts, retention of existing high platforms, non-duplication of maintenance facilities, FRA compatibility, plus general overall lower cost. I could see interchange stations between NJ LRT and North Shore service, but not actual LRT operation on the North Shore line…
I think as long as either line, a restored North Shore SIRT or the NJT Hudson-Bergen light rail line crosses the water so that passengers can transfer between the two, I'd be for it. That seems like the easiest way to connect Staten Island to the mainland, much easier than tying the SIRT to the NYC subway system. Of course, I'm sure even bringing either line into the other's state would be very complicated politically.
Mark
Not to mention that there are light rail lines with high platforms (L. A.'s Blue, Green and Gold lines, and Metrolink in St. Louis to mention a few).
not outdated American signalling techniques, along with a backwards FRA
Mind elaborating on the “signalling techniques” thereof? Besides, I’m sure that you are aware that the FRA makes it increasingly expensive to upgrade signalling, which is why only the Northeast Corridor has something like ACSES…
Besides, there are other different points about the LRT “solution” that is being proposed that makes it ridiculous. One of them is the notion that people are getting in their heads that it would somehow be part of the Hudson-Bergen LRT that is part of NJ Transit’s system—now that system uses low-platform cars. Incidentally, if one did use high-platform LRVs (such as the Siemens that LA and other cities use), the extant high platforms would still have to be modified to reach the sides of these cars whereas the current SIR cars would be the right fit…but I’m sure that goes without saying anyhow. Since the MTA will be operating this (and why wait till 2015 indeed), it only makes sense to use the heavy-rail option.
At one point wasnt there and idea for a chunnel under NY bay connecting jersey with Brooklyn onto the Old Bay Ridge track
Was an article I remember in the Daily New or Post over the summer
Elias
Anyone familar with this train?
If you go there check out the Museums Christmas MTH layout. It nice?
avid
http://www.railfanwindow.com/gallery/MNRphoebeCars
avid.
I wonder if the restrooms will be open?
Elias
Maybe he's referring to the incomplete (but not incorrect) train designations at 49th. The W stops there too. Like it or not, lots of people still think of the Broadway BMT as the "N/R line."
Also, NYCT does not schedule any weekend suspensions on the #7 line into Manhattan when games are played at Shea Stadium in the spring or summer. So don't worry the #7 will be running to Times Square all night.
Thanks,
Julian (an R110b fan)
Last Friday I took my two grandchildern to see Santa at Macy's. The walk thru Santa Land has a new exhibit ... that's right MTH has a train layout with most of there buildings, including Jan's !
The Puppet show, one floor up, was very nice this year. PB Bear, Percey the penguin & Mrs. Claus all were part of the crowd warm up routine.
BTW, the snow Friday made the trip from Long Island a great Christmas event (we also did Rockafella Center & St. Pat's Church that afternoon).
P.S. Tip, don't go in the AM as all the local schools are visiting Santa then.
Peace,
ANDEE
BTW, was at FAO Schwarz last night before having dinner with some transportation industry colleagues.
Peace,
ANDEE
Seriously it's nice to know you get on the eight floor every now and then. I thought the MTH display was rather nice ... not as big as the CitiCorp one, but something to look forward when I do my annual Christmas routine in Mahattan.
TRUE, it IS a nice display. You shoud have seen the bitch of a time we had bringing in.
Peace,
ANDEE
It was brought in fully assembled.
They will be taking it out after Xmas, let me know if you would like to see this spectacular.
Peace,
ANDEE
The flames beneath the trolley were clearly visible from the front and side of the trolley. It was a strange sight to see. Did anyone else witness this event?
Mark
Mark
They probably do...
Mark
Sounds like the stuff busitution people love.
:-) Andrew
Unfortunately for downtown Jamaica, it's not also the 15th anniversary of the closing of the Jamaica Avenue El.
When was the last time you visited the Jamaica Center area? The area is much better off now than it has ever been, a pleasant place to shop, see a movie, workout at Ballys, get a bite to eat, or whatever you want to do.
The area seems to be improving now, but it went through many years of decline, caused at least in part by the lack of decent transit after the El closed and before Archer Avenue opened.
N Bwy
N Bwy
Oh dear, here we go with the 9/11 tragedy again..... ok, ok, wrong 9/11 tragedy... maybe the Allende coup of 1973? :-/
Maybe DH Lawrence being born (1885).
And it still is nothing when compared with it's glory days, but the loss of the el only played a small part in that.
I'll never forget the first time I went into Jamaica by myself. I was staying at my Aunt and Uncle's apartment on 178th Place. I was about 11 or 12. Even then, I had trouble deciding on which transit line to take! The bus on Hillside Avenue or the bus on Jamaica Avenue. (I think I chose Jamaica Ave) There was nothing future malls could match when it came to the interesting variety and sparkle of those stores on the avenue under the el. I particulary remember a magic shop where I got some slick tricks to play on my uncle.
This must have been around 1965 or so. I still miss that el.
True, but for 8 years as David mentioned, it could have still gone to Sutphin (allowing connection to the LIRR).
What about taking the (7) to Woodside station? That's always been there.
Or are you referring to personal experience?
Chaohwa
As for February, not only we must think about the N going over the bridge and the D returning to Brooklyn on the new West End line but between 5 and 6 AM on Monday 2/23/04, I will be at Brighton Beach for the third historic occasion.
I guess that's my way of commemorating this momentous occasion.
Who am I kidding...I didn't even know the Archer was 15.
After Myrtle, my J got REAL packed, and we ran express on the local.
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
Wow, 15 years?
Scary isn't it? I've been riding the subway WITH Archer just as long as I had ridden it WITHOUT Archer. Scary.
Reef Acela! Buy ALP46s!
The owners of the railroad had a fight and split up; those who left built a rival railroad which became the Atlantic City Railroad, and later the Reading. The Camden and Atlantic eventually was owned by the PRR.
NJT's Atlantic City line runs on the Camden & Atlantic from Haddonfield to Winslow Jct and on the Atlantic City Railroad from Winslow Jct to Atlantic City.
I already took my 15th anniversary rides on the Archer Avenue lines just one prior month ago on Tuesday 11/11/2003, with myself riding an R-32 "E" into Parsons-Archer, R-42 "J" trains between Parsons-Archer and 111th Street, and finally an R-32 "E" all the way to World Trade Center. For the record, I was also on the last day of regular "J" line service with the last trains to and from 168th Street-Jamaica Avenue back on Sunday 09/11/1977, and they were both silver/blue (and graffitied) R-27/30 units.
-William A. Padron
["Jamaica-Parsons Blvd."]
Was there any sort of "Farewell to the Jamaica El" ceremony?
Ironically, the very first subway fantrip that I ever on as a paying customer was the E.R.A. silver/blue R-10 excursion of Saturday, October 23, 1976, with units #3298-3231-3220-2955, and that train did go into and out of 168th Street-Jamaica Avenue too. On that trip, a photo stop was made at Sutphin Boulevard on the southbound side.
-William A. Padron
["168th St.-Jamaica"]
N Bwy
Ps: Thank godness my train doesn't go there. heehehee
For instance, the fare was 35 cents. (Quote Frank Correll: "What the hell do they expect for their lousy 35-cents? To live forever?")
Another example is the cost of crossing the Tri-boro Bridge. In the movie it was 50-cents.
How times change!
Look at these 7 pictures I took yesterday at the Spring Street I.R.T. station, one of the stations that opened up on 27 October 1904. A lot of the walls are covered with these advertisements for iPod! Is the MTA that strapped for cash? What ever happened to restoring these stations to their original appearance? I don't mind the smaller ads that are bracketed to the wall (in the newer sections), but to put these big ads up like this in an original 1904 station, well, as the title says, it's atrocious! It's an atrocity! It's a travesty! It's a crime against nature! Well...maybe not a crime against nature, but it's definitely the other two. I hope someone from the MTA reads this and tells someone to remove them, burn them, and burn the ashes! They detract from the natural beauty of the station! I hope someone goes out there and gets rid of them, because they are UGLY! They're like huge zits on a TV news reporter's face!
UGH! Who's the yutz who came up with this idea?!
The ads that used to be at Prince St were being damaged as some ripped holes into them. The ads came down and thankfully have not made a return.
Not only are they gaudy, black, and block out light, but they completely clash with the classic interior of 30th St Station. It was disgusting, however, they have now been replaced by black ads for a jewelry company, which also make the eastern end of the station extremely dark.
Everyone says to watch BBC but I find them extremely left also. Plus, I cant stand british accents, so I try not to watch/listen.
I just thank god that there is a conservative news source out there, because even the "moderate" ones lean to one side, and Fox is not an exception.
They are extremely left wing. A moderately but overtly right wing British newspaper, The Daily Telegraph, ran a column entitled "Beebwatch" for quite some time. Basically, the BBC's favourite trick is to have a "debate" with a left wing presenter, a left wing MP and the leader of a left wing pressure group. They will occasionally invite someone right wing to be thoroughly awkward to him and claim that they're objective.
Their stance can be summarised as follows:
Jew bad, Arab good
Saddam bad, Bush worse
USA bad, EU good
Government bad, Loony Left good
Taxes bad, Spending good
Budget Deficit the fault of the evil incompetent government
Abortion good, Devout RCs (except Mother Theresa) bad
Terrorists bad, Internment (eg Guantanamo Bay) worse
I-can't-believe-you-just-suggested-capital-punishment-that's-absurd-don't-you-agree-Mr-Lefty
Robert Mugabe isn't an incompetent racist terrorist dictator, but an understandable product of African nationalism against that evil evil British Empire
Having not seen BBCTV for a long while, I cant comment. However, BBC World Service News, possibly because it comes out of Bush House, away from the rest of the Beeb, to be resonably centrist, though the content is a little Britain oriented.
The World Service has suffered, but only in relatively trivial ways, like the palaver over Lilliburlero and the sack everyone with a plummy accent because we are politically correct effort.
The great thing about the World Service is it is a memento of what the BBC used to be - it's difficult to tell the difference between a 1982 and a 1997 news programme (other than one going on about the Falklands War, the other about "new" Labour).
I'm not sure whether having its own TV channel has been a good or a bad thing. I fear the rot is creeping.
I bet you read the Post, dont you?
It's strange how a word from the Latin gaudere "to rejoice" has come to mean something tasteless.
I remember the lower level of the old WTC station suffering the same indignity (campaigns for MCI come to mind), where the entire walls and pillars of the little mezzanine between the big escalators and the mezzanine with the bar, newsstands and cafe would be covered.
The good news is that its just printed vinyl, which pulls off easily when the campaign is over.
The bad news is that the adverts are boring and ugly to look at. If only there were some wit and humor.
Have you had your first visit from the RU Housing Police yet!
Obviously they havent captured the awareness level that they would like yet.
Since Apple has written a version of the Ipod host software that works on Windows, there is no reason for Windows users to switch.
Gates may have the PC market sewn up, but Microsoft is having to work hard in other areas: PlayStations are beating XBoxes, and PalmOS machines are beating Windows CE machines.
Back to the station ads. The thing about Spring Street, it is (or at least used to be) on the edge of the SoHo art distict. West of Lafayette (where the station is located) Spring St is home to many, many art galleries. South of there, on Centre St, is the old Police HQ condos. I think these ads are probably appropriate for the neighborhood's demographics and are probably well-received.
Guess a big ole billboard didn't suit their blasstid ad campaign~!
If you don't like the ad, boycott the company that's responsible for it.
Whats different here is that the medium is much bigger than previously, covering big sections of the walls. Someone in the MTA must have decided to allow this, as its a change in policy.
Unfortunately, once they allow one advertiser to do this, they have to allow others
How is our constitution outdated? You don't like our silly notions of freedom? Do us all a favor and move to China.
Of course we never had any dictators or wars where our country was invaded
Your knowledge of history is as abysmal as your knowledge of constitutional law.
The whole reason there is a United States of America is because it was previously ruled by the equivalent of a dictator: The British Parliament in which it had no say. Also, don't know about the War of 1812?
I could even include the invasion by Mexican dictator Pancho Villa of New Mexico in 1916. New Mexico was a state in 1916.
However if the MTA allowed graffiti in some places, it would not be able to restrict who makes the graffiti or what it's about.
If the MTA chooses to sell ads, it cannot choose to whom or what the subject shall be, the only thing it can do is not sell ads at all.
Probably because I own an iPod and take it with me practically everywhere I go.
If you and enough other people complain, MTA may reconsider them.
#3 West End Jeff
The next time there's an impending fare hike, and people argue against it, just be sure that you didn't complain about these ads in this thread, it WILL be used against you.
BUT.............
The ads were relatively SMALLER than those at Spring Street and
were fitted into the AD "FRAMES" along the platform.... (and werenot
running amok from knee to high pillar stance ON the walls)
BUT.............
The ads were relatively SMALLER than those at Spring Street and
were fitted into the AD "FRAMES" along the platform.... (and werenot
running amok from knee to high pillar stance ON the walls)
SHAME they couldn't do this at Spring Street....
avid
Seeds.
It's funny, but I asked about Farmer's Oval on here about four years ago, and no one had ever heard of it. Thankfully, an oldtimer finally identified where he thought it might have been.
I've seen a number of pictures of old BMT equipment captioned as being taken at Farmer's Oval, but the ballfield was not visable, just the girder bridge in the background.
Well, when a mommy tree and a daddy tree really love each other...
ah, never mind.
My question-the cars shown on opening day in the article have little pods on either side of the front, at around the belt line. These aren't present in the delivery pictures on this site. Anyone know what they are??
I belive the pods you're talking about are the ones located on either side of the cab, immediately outboard the headlights, right?
If so, those are a kind of pantograph gate, the smaller sibling of the monsters found on NYCTA subway and LIRR M7s. LACMTA doesn't need gates that can prevent a daredevil from climbing out on the anticlimber of the car and either riding there or using the end door as his personal way to beat the crowds at the legitimate doors. They do need something on the P2000s to keep a blind person from walking into the gap between cars while the train is platformed, their small pantograph gates accomplish this. I noticed that when the P2000s were run with the Sumimotos on the Blue and Green Lines they did not have them, and also, as you noted, the delivery shots of the P2000s to the Gold Line did not show them, so it's a good bet that they were added sometime between the delivery of the cars and the opening of the line. I also don't know if the P2000s operating on the Blue and Green Lines have the gates, or even if they still operate the P2000s on these lines with the opening of the Gold Line. Perhaps a more enlightened left coast subtalker could provide us with that info.
Also, does the Gold Line ever run the old Sumimotos?
What about the extension of the Gold Line out to the southwest as seen on this map? Might that still occur, despite the objections of highway lobby groups like the BRU?
Or would he require the cars to be Siemens?
I suppose it's good that rail is expanding in the LA area, but they already screwed it up.
Los Angeles lost a great chance when they bungled the extension of the blue line through downtown and created the gold line as an independent project.
Out of the 60 or shots I've taken of the Sao Paulo Metro, of the 36 that are underground on world.nycsubway.org, these were the best out of some pretty dark and/or very grainy shots. Here are some examples of what I've taken before with 800 speed film in 2001:
The photos posted here are still too grainy and there isn't enough contrast between the dark and light areas for my liking. The first photo is probably one of the best shots.
What are some ways that I can improve my shots so that the photos come out much better? Tripods are out of the question as is flash, of course.
Mark
New Scanner of slides:
I never had problems with getting clear Kodachrome 35mm shots underground. Kodachrome64 worked great with that, without a tripod. However, I now went digital. It is a bit harder to get moving digital underground photos, as many of them come out like this:
I'm getting better, but when you are used to film, it takes a while to get used to digital. Film cameras take photos faster, so i had to get used to the "delay" with digital cameras
As for flash, never use that in the subway, legal or not. The photos just won't come out good. Flash reflects off of the shiney surfaces, and without flash, the camera makes much better use out of the available light. See example below:
Same camera, same station, same 35mm print film, one with flash (above), and one without flash (below). The ones without flash come out so much better.
So do you think using Kodachrome64 is a better bet for underground shots than standard 800 speed film? Would Kodachrome64 work well for outdoor/daylight shots as well?
If possible try to stabilize your body and/or the camera as best you can to take longer exposures. It might be difficult to get the right kind of exposure with a point and shoot.
In a related photography side note, I am getting a Pentax istD for Christmas, so I am looking to sell my Canon Powershot G2 which is a year old...I also have the telephoto lens and adapter for the camera. If anyone is interested shoot me an e-mail rgrechATnycDOTrrDOTcom
Depends on what you're going for. I like shooting 3200 film, the grain looks lovely. You're pretty much going to have to accept whatever you get with a point and shoot camera; I'd avoid using one if possible. What make and model do you have? Also, if you can, scan in your negatives, not your prints. there's a lot more detail there that you can pull out in post-processing.
I took your photos and did some superfast [about a minute a piece] work on them in photoshop, just to even out the colors a bit. To give you an idea, do an Auto-Level [ctrl+shift+L] and then an Auto-Color [ctrl+shirt+B] to get you started. These automated tools don't always work, but they can help out until you learn the program a bit more. There are also a number of filters you can use to decrease grain.
AEM7
Anyone got any recommendations?
Cooool.
BTW, I WAS supposed to be in Sao Paulo right now, but I'm flying standby and I've been bumped off TWICE already since Monday because of overbooking. I'm going to try again tomorrow and hopefully the third time is the charm. So far, the only underground shots I've taken are of the ATL people mover, not the SP Metro and commuter rail like I had in mind!
Linked for the lazy
Da Hui
....say the word 'Tourist' brah.
jim
And the name, chosen from a selection of more than 3,400 "Name the Train" contest entries and subjected to extensive public-opinion research, is:
Metro.
That's the simple solution chosen by Valley Metro Rail, which wants to put an easily recognizable and even international spin on the light-rail system, Phoenix Mayor Skip Rimsza said at a news conference Wednesday to announce the new name.
Metro is a name used for rail systems around the world and in such major cities as Los Angeles; Washington, D.C.; and Paris, said Rimsza, who also serves as chairman of the light-rail board.
Rimsza also used the news conference to introduce the new CEO for the fledgling system, Richard Simonetta, former head of Atlanta's light-rail system and past chairman of the American Public Transportation Association.
The winner of the "Name the Train" contest, 32-year-old Ben Bethel of downtown Phoenix, was among several hundred people who submitted the name, but he was the first to put in his entry.
"I suggested Metro because I thought we should have a serious approach to transit and a serious name," Bethel said. "I didn't think we should have some cute little acronym."
The 22 mile light-rail system is now in the final design stage, with construction scheduled to begin in spring 2004. About 27,000 riders daily are expected to use the system, which will link the northwest Valley and East Valley with downtown Phoenix. The system is scheduled for completion in December 2006, with plans in place to expand it in the future.
Copyright 2003, azcentral.com
Metro Is Overused. and would not work with the Valley Metro and Rapid Logos on Buses.
There are so many good names, why limit themselves to such a common name? Especially when relatively nearby Houston is about to open a new LRT that already has the name Metro. It'd be like Tacoma calling it's new LRT TriMet, Tacoma Streetcar or something.
Why are transportation consultants so ^%*&^& boring and conservative these days. Bad enough equipment is beyond generic and bland (in terms of looks, performance, and everything else), now even names are...
Divide, delay and defeat.
That is the strategy being pursued by opponents to building a light-rail transit line linking Phoenix to Tempe and Mesa.
At issue is funding for portions of the already-approved light-rail system and a possible extension.
This story sure as heck doesn't sound like these people have your best interest at heart. Sounds like a self-serving scam to me. Them outsiders must love Phoenix.
Light-rail foes hope to derail May transportation decision
A sprinkler system should be installed above all of the seats on each car. As a train is approaching the last stop, the C/R will announce that all passengers should stand up quickly. Seconds later, the sprinkler system would activate, drenching anybody who is still sitting (sleeping). This method would be extremely effective in the following ways:
1) It would instill fear in any passenger feeling drowsy and they would probably not sit down in the first place.
2) Even people who don't think they'll fall asleep anyway will not sit down because the seats will be wet almost all of the time.
3) The seats will be cleaned on a much more regular basis.
4) If you connect this system to the slopes on the roof and divert all of the water, leaking will no longer be an issue.
5) During summer if someone gets a car without air conditioning, just sit down and relax until the terminal where you'll get refreshed.
Eventually, seats will become so underused that they'll be removed and train capacity will increase all the more.
I thought you were going to suggest MTA start making Soylent Green or something
This won't go for key improvements or better service. This is to fend off disaster. And it shouldn't be a surprise.
And just think, the Bush administration is doing this on a national scale.
Ray Sanchez also had a column in today's Newsday on the same theme.
Ray Sachez Column
BTW, Gute Reise is German for Good Trip...
--Mark
Ice cream sitdown contest? Never heard of this one. Can you give more details?
Koi
8th Avenue Division
A1 - 155 St, Manhattan to Atlantic Avenue, Brooklyn, 8th Ave. Local in Manhattan, Tillary St/Ashland Pl local in Brooklyn (Operates 24/7)
A2 - Gun Hill Rd, The Bronx to Stillwell Av-Coney Island, Brooklyn, 3 Ave-161 St Local in Bronx, 8th Av Express in Manhatttan, Coney Island Ave Express in Brooklyn. (Note: only operates Coney Island Express during rush hours. All other times operates as Coney Island Ave Local)
A3-Reservoir Av, Bronx to Union Tpke, Queens, Martin Luther King Jr. Blvd Express in Bronx, 8th Ave Express in Manhatttan, Tillary St/Myrtle Ave Express in Brooklyn and Queeens. (Note: Only operates as express outside of Manhatttan during rush hours.)
A4-155 St, Manhatttan to Union Tpke, Queeens, 8th Av Local in Manhatttan, Tilllary St/Myrtle Av Local in Brooklyn & Queens. (operates rush hours only)
A5-Reservoir Av, Bronx to Stilllwell Av-Coney Island, Brooklyn, M.L.K. Jr. Blvd Local in Bronx, 8th Av Local in Manhatttan, Coney Island Av Local in Brooklyn (operates rush hours only)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
7th Avenue/Broadway Division
B1 - Pelham Bay Pk, Bronx to 180 St-St Albans, Queens, Westchester Av Express in Bronx, B'way-7th Av Express in Manhattan, Flatbush Av-Eastern Pkway/Pitkin Ave Express in Brooklyn, Linden Blvd Local in Queens. (Note: operates as local in Bronx and Brooklyn on weekends and during nights.)
B2 - 261st St, Bronx to Fountain Ave, Brooklyn, Broadway-7th Av Local in Bronx and Manhattan, Flatbush Av-Eastern Pkway/Hegeman Av Local in Brooklyn (operates 24/7)
B3 - Pelham Bay Pk, Bronx to South Ferry, Manhattan, Westcher Av Local in Bronx, B'way-7th Av Local in Manhattan. (does not operate during nights)
B4 - 261st St, Bronx to Euclid Ave, Brooklyn, B'way-7th Av Express in Bronx and Manhattan, Flabush Av-Eastern Pkway/Pitkin Av Local in Broooklyn. (operates weekdays only)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Madison Avenue Division
C1 - 208th St, Bronx to 97th Av, Queens, Concourse Local in Bronx, Madison Av Express in Manhattan, Flabush Av/Fulton St Express in Brooklyn, Jamaica Av Local in Queens (only operates as Flabush/Fulton Express on weekdays, all other times, local in Brooklyn)
C2 - Edson Av, Bronx to South Ferry, Manhattan, Southern Blvd Local in Bronx, Madison Av Local in Manhattan. (operates 24/7)
C3 - Edson Av, Bronx to B'way Jct-East NY, Brooklyn, Southern Blvd Express in Bronx, Madison Av Express in Manhattan, Fulton St Local in Brooklyn. (operates weekdays only)
----------------------------------------------------------------=----
2nd Avenue Division
D1`- 233rd St, Bronx to Stillwell Av-Coney Islad, Brooklyn, Boston Rd Express in Bronx, 2nd Av Express in Manhattan, Flabush Av/Brighton Express in Brooklyn. (operates 24/7)
D2 - 241st St, Bronx to Brighton Beach, Brooklyn, White Plains Rd/Boston Rd Local in Bronx, 2nd Ave Local in Manhattan, Fulton St/Flabush Av/Brighton Local in Brooklyn (operates 24/7)
D3 - Harding Av, Bronx to South Ferry, Manhattan, Westchester Av/Boston Rd Local in Bronx, 2nd Av Local in Manhattan (operates 24/7)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
6th Avenue Division
E1 - Braddock Av, Queens to 95th St-Bay Ridge, Brooklyn, Hillside Av/Queens Blvd Express in Queens, 6th Av Express in Manhattan, 4th Av Express in Brooklyn. (operates 24/7)
E2 - 102nd-La Guardia Airport, Queens to South Ferry, Manhattan, Astoria Blvd-31st Local in Queens, 6th Av Local in Manhattan. (operates 24/7)
E3 - 230th St, Queens to Stillwell Av-Coney Island, Brooklyn, Jewel Av/Queens Blvd local in Queens, 6th Av Local in Manhattan, 4th Av/New Utrecht Av Local in Brooklyn. (operates 24/7)
E4 - 102nd St, Queens to Stillwell Av, Brooklyn, Astoria Blvd-31st St Express in Queens, 6th Av Local in Manhattan, 4th Av/New Utrecht Av Express in Brooklyn. (Operates rush hours only)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Centre Street Division
F1 - Mott Av-Far Rockaway, Queens to Wall St, Manhattan, Rockaway Express in Queens, Broadway Express in Brooklyn, Centre St Express in Manhattan. (Note: operates as local in Brooklyn and Queens during nighs.)
F2 - 69th St, Queens to Wall St, Manhattan, Flushing Av/Broadway Local in Queens and Brooklyn, Centre St Local in Manhattan. (Operates 24/7)
F3 - Beach 116th St-Rockaway Pk, Queens to Chambers St, Manhattan, Rocakaway Local in Queens, Broadway Local in Brooklyn, Centre St Local in Manhattan. (Does not operate during nights)
F4 - Broad Channel to Beach 116th St-Rockaway Park, Queens (operates 24/7)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
14th Street Division
G1 - Flatbush Av/Utica Av, Brooklyn to 8th Av, Manhattan, Flatlands Local in Brooklyn, 14th St Local in Manhattan. (operates 24/7)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
42nd Street Division
H1 - 154th St, Queens to 10th Av, Manhattan, Whitestone/Roosevelt Av Local in Queens, 42 St Local in Manhattan. (operates 24/7)
H2 - 41st Av-Bayside, Queens to 10 Av, Manhattan, Bayside/Roosevelt Av Express in Queens, 42 St Express in Manhattan. (Operates 24/7)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Brooklyn-Queens Crosstown Division
I1 - Woodhaven Blvd, Queens to Boro Hall, Brooklyn, Queens Blvd/Broadway Local in Queens, Union-Lafeytte Aves. Local in Brooklyn. (Operates 24/7)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Sherlock
P. S. If I were a private company like the IND building in the 1930's, the lines would be different. I'll post a list of them soon.
A - Fulton St / 8av Express
207st Manhattan
Mott Av Far Rockaway (all times)
B - Central Park West Local
6AV / Brighton Express
168st Manhattan
Coney Island (all times)
C - Fulton St / 8AV /Central Park West / Concourse Local
Bedford Park Blvd
Lefferts Blvd
E - Queens Blvd
D - Concourse / Central Park West / 6AV Express
to - 205th ST
Coney Island
E - Q
Too right!
My idea is more like an extension of the BMT:
#13: 268/Hillside - all stops - Continental Av - Queens 53rd St 8th Av Express - 14/8 - all stops via Cranberry Tunnel - rise to recapture BMT Fulton St El
#7: Idlewild Airport - Van Wyck - then as #13 and Franklin/Brighton Line
#16 and #17: Continental Av - Queens 53rd St 8th Av Lcl - curves to recapture BMT 14th St Line
#18 Lafayette Av - Hunts Pt Av - 163 - 3rd Av - Willis Av - 1st Av Exp - Houston St - Reid Av - Utica Av
#19 149/3 - 1st Av Lcl - Chambers St
Also there'd be a lot more lines in Queens (I'll post these when I get round to them).
It's JFK
We're talking about building the IND better - when the IND was being built was WAY over 30 years ago.
Idlewild opened in 1948.
Here is MY 2004 COMPREHENSIVE service plan:
A: 207th Street to Lefferts Blvd via Local, Airtrain extension to Rockaway Blvd, Rockaway Tresle abandoned, Elevated Busway through Rockaways to avoid dreadful Rockaway traffic.
B: Abandoned so the Grand Concourse can be depressed and converted into a fully controlled access highway. The toll will be $25 and it will only be open to Scarsdale residents, or those with property in the Hamptons.
C: Full duplicate of the A line, but operators will have the freedom to choose their own stops; conductors will still announce the skipped stops as if the train is stopping.
D: This line will be placed on Academic Probation
F: This line will be forced to pull up its grades. Not the brightest bulb in the bulb box, it will only make it to C. To further confuse people, it will use the same colored bullet and rolling stock as the C.
E: The E-line will become just that, an E-line. The entire route would be replaced with heavy duty fiber optic cables. To make up for the loss of transportation, telepods will be placed at each former station. Users are warned to be afraid, be very afraid.
G: This line will be flooded with water and used as the 4th City Water Tunnel. But to counter protests, it will only be filled halfway and venice-style gondolas will provide service.
J/Z: Each car will become a studio for producing very loud RAP music. Special equipment will make sure that the train is loudest when passing by the windows of people sound asleep.
L: This line will be exported to Chicago
M: Confusing it for a large candy that melts in your mouth and not in your hand, a monster will eat it. Changing the color to an unnatural green only makes the monster hungrier for it.
N: This train will run from Coney Island, running local to 59th and express from there to 57th Street over the bridge. All of the stops will be renovated, but for some Sunny Summer Sunday specials it won't matter since they will run express all the way to the beautifully restored Coney Island terminal. The other lines will not be allowed into Coney Island.
Q: Retires. This forces the 007 train to go to R for gadgets.
R: Replaces Q as the supply depot for the Flushing line.
S: The Franklin Avenue Shuttle is rebuilt in diamond-encrusted platinum. The other shuttles are irrelevant.
V: Is rerouted onto the Lexington Avenue line. Rolling stock remains the same.
W: Is re-elected
1: Reassigned to Land Mobile
2: The plumbing breaks, turning the #2 into a putrid cesspool
3: No, that was the 6! the 3 will come out 22 years later.
4: The Lexington Avenue line will be replaced with an underground busway. 40-foot suburban-style low floor busses will be used, they will run at 20 minute intervals in two lanes.
5: See 4
6: Because of the loss of the Lexington line, it will be replaced with street running along Lexington with both tracks using active traffic lanes. Lexington will remain a one way street for cars with all lanes open.
7: Will get overrun by rednecks. All of the kids with purple hair, queers with AIDS, dudes who got out of jail for the fourth time and 20-year old moms with four kids will be lynched.
9: Since skip-stop service is reviled, this line will instead be put to good use as a moving homeless shelter.
A reference to the reason why there is no "Channel 1" on a standard television set?
Great, GREAT obscure reference!
Is your mind really that limber for it to come up with tons of tightly-written satire at a moment's notice, or is it the result of years of reading certain patterns of posts and your finally being able to put responses into words?
Must be the missing yellows.
C: Full duplicate of the A line, but operators will have the freedom to choose their own stops; conductors will still announce the skipped stops as if the train is stopping.
Oh, so you're not proposing any change to the C.
They're also along Liberty Avenue.
Take a Q112 bus from Jamaica to Ozone Park, and you'll see a lot of them, especially under the el!
Wow, I didn't think any of those 2-aspect traffic signals still exisited in NYC this day. I always thought the red/green aspect (in lieu of a yellow light) was funny when I was a kid. (though my mom told me that back in the day it went straight from green to red, and the other direction turned green at the same time, after a bunch of accidents, they came up with the combined red/green)
Speaking of Liberty Av, does anyone remember in East New York when they had signals at every other intersection on Liberty and there were signs at the non signalled intersection "obey signal at next block" or something to that effect? Also, on the cross streets w/out signals, you had to look down Liberty Av and proceed when the Liberty signal turned red. They still had these when I left NYC in the mid-70s.
I don't know if I'm imagining this, but does anyone remember there being "missing yellow" lights under the Jamaica El back in the early 80's. I thought I remembered driving with my father under the el (don't remember if it's the now gone section or the still in use section), and there only being "red-green" traffic lights. Anyone else remember this?
Sherlock
Sherlock
Church Avenue Line: Western terminal would be 9th Avenue L/L at 38th Street. Eastern terminal either (1) Rockaway Ave./Broodale Hospital or (2) Linden Blvd at Rockaway Ave. or Pennsylvania Ave. Obviously this would replace the B49 bus route...freeing up already congested Church Avneue to cars and trucks (making deliveries only).
Stops from West to East: (1) MacDonald Ave. (tranfer to the F); Coney Island Ave.; E. 18th St. (tranfer to the Q); Nostrand Ave. (tranfer to 2/5); Albany Ave.; Utica Ave.; Kings Hwy-Ralph Ave.; Linden Blvd-Rockaway Pkwy. (last stop Brookdale Hospital). Note that after Kings Hwy-Ralph Ave. the line then makes a slight right turn and runs under Linden. Optional Eastern terminal: Pennsylvania Avenue which would include a stop at Rockaway Ave., and Sneidiker Ave. (transfer to the L at New Lots Ave.).
How does it sound?
Guess you meant the B35 on Church Ave. I wonder if they still run bunched up 3-4 buses together like they did in the 70s.
One more question: besides lack of passengers, did the LIRR also consider the possibility of lawsuits as one of the reasons for closing those stations? After reading the postings about people suing for anything and everything, it would seem that these unlit, un-platformed stations would have been an open invitation for someone to start a lawsuit for some real or staged injury.
The route is not used only for the one or two passenger runs. It is an active freight line, run by the New York and Atlantic Railway (which took over the LIRR Freight department some years back). In fact the line is far from dead. Most of the freight that travels Long Island runs through on that line.
Isn't the LIC depot a very short distance from the LIRR Hunterspoint station? If so, don't most passengers traveling from Jamaica to LIC find it easier to go to Hunterspoint instead?
Yeah, but the Ferry that some take is closer to LIC.
One more question: besides lack of passengers, did the LIRR also consider the possibility of lawsuits as one of the reasons for closing those stations?
Possibly, but the real reason was because when they got the new diesel trains, if they were to continue service on the line, they would have had to make the stations ADA compliant, and make them high level platforms, as the bi-levels don't have steps like the old trains had. The expense of this was not worth it because only about 1-5 people a day used these stations, with the average being only about 2 or 3 passengers for each station.
As far as travelers headed for Manhattan, Penn Station is located at W.34th St and 7th Avenue, so commuters bound for the East Side-Grand Central area (E.42d St and Park Avenue), have long preferred the Hunterspoint (or LIC) terminal and the connection to the 7 train which runs under 42d St once Manhattan is reached.
One other thing I should point out -Hunterspoint and LIC service is and has been for many, many years rush-hour only. Inbound in the AM rush and outbound during the evening.
Hope this helps. (Oh, and if you're ever in NY City try and ride the Lower Montauk. To me it's the best railfan ride in the Metropolitan Area.)
1. At what point(s) in manhattan does it drop off/pick up passengers?
2. What is the cost per trip?
3. How long does the trip take?
4. It sounds great for sightseers, but do many commuters prefer it over bus or train, in terms of cost and convenience?
Thanks,
Dave
And here's part of the mid-day service.
There's also weekend service.
Those poles in the background are LIPA's main Long Beach feed, fed along the Long Beach branch.
Here they are again in Island Park
They go underwater for the Long Beach channel and emerge just a few blocks east of the LIRR bridge, where the problem substation was.
Today I was walking to fare control after dropping into the subway at 12th st. Fare control at 13th and Market/Juniper St Station on the MFL and Subway Surface is just about halfway between 12th and 13th. However I noticed that there was a locked door with some lights on and a staircase behind it, the wall next to the door was glass and I could just see down to the bottom, where the tunnel turned left.
I suppose this was an old out of fare control underpass between the westbound and eastbound sides of the mezzanine. Why can't they reopen it, the lights seem to work. It's a pain in the ass to either come in on a westbound and need to be on the north side of the street, or vice versa, or, worse, to climb the wrong set of stairs coming up from the Subway surface and end up moronically having to cross the street again.
So why is that SEPTA cannot open the underpass?
It's too bad they can't just run it right up into the basement of their building, down by the PCC in their 'Transit Museum.'
Kinda like that parking lot at 8th and Market that was supposed to be all sorts of fun tourist things, until they just gave up and paved over it.
Mark
Mark
After decades of nothing, there's actually been a resurgence of home construction in Center City. There's a massive Manhattan style apartment tower being built right off of Washington Sq. The entire block of the original Bookbinders is being converted to Condos. The beautiful Dept. of Ed building along the parkway is to become high end condos. I'm glad to see that people are finding Philly to be a desirable place to live again.
But still, there are empty lots at 8th, 15th, and 20th along the Market/Chestnut corridor, yet they're about to build a skyscraper over the rail yards next to 30th Street Station (transit content)?
New York doesn't have a monopoly on shady real estate deals. The overnight demolition of JFK stadium was proof of that!
Mark
Go here to download the video.
Go here to download the video.
http://www.passur.com/sites.htm
That would be very cool indeed, but it also would require the existence of a central command board showing the location of every train in the system - which doens't exist.
Since LU knows where its trains are, at least as far as being able to tell passengers what the next three trains will be, it shouldnt be too difficult to plot this in real time (or perhaps delayed 10 minutes for security reasons!)
Going back to the original application, run a replay any weekday around 7pm. The number of planes in the air over the tri-state area is scary!
Just substitute the three-letter airport code for "HPN" inthe URL.
There may be others.
The one for SNA has an 11.5 minute delay. I live right under the approach to the one and only jet runway and certain planes (the one and only Airbus A310 that comes in nightly, FedEx) goes over and then it's 11/5 minutes until it shows on the screen as passing over my place.
The site says that the delays are for security purposes, but I can't quite figure out why that is the case.
Ya know, Crazy Ibrahims surplus SAM shop on Canal Street
--It takes much longer, by a few minutes at least, for everyone to exit the train. I'm not sure how come, but it just does. What happens in an emergency and time is important?
--This could just be a reflection of my own private nature, but too may seats face each other. When I'm riding in a group, we sit at the seats facing each other by the door in the M1s and M3s, but on the way to work, I'm by myself and much prefer to contemplate the view out the window, the newspaper, or the seat in front of me, instead of facing somebody....they should not have put facing seats mid-car.
--The backs of the seats are too high; in the M1s and M3's, if the seat is occupied, it's readily apparent, but you have to look harder in the M7s.
--In a local line like the Port Wash, the bing bongs! get annoying.
www.forgotten-ny.com
:)
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
Also Siemens does build more than just trolleys. They do build commuterm high-speed and subway equipment.
The M-7's have a excellant MDBF, need I say more ?
Bill "Newkirk"
wayne
The Midland Railway Works, Derby Adtranz Bombardier can make some very fine trains, you know.
Class 168/0 (in sidings at London Marylebone (these will be replaced with platforms 5 and 6!))
Class 168/1 (whereas the /0s had the "fat bastard" front end, the /1s have a more streamlined look - these are officially called "Networker" and "Turbostar" outlines; this one's on platform 3 at Marylebone.)
The 168s have a great comfortable interior, all 2+2, a variety of seat shapes (it's really good fun playing "pick a seat" at Birmingham Snow Hill), and no wasteful rip-off 1st Class section.
They also have HUGE disabled lavs.
AEM7
Bombardier took Adtranz over and someone decided it looked better. I personally prefer the "fat bastard" front end.
(2) What the difference between 168/1 and 170/x?
- The 170s can MU with anything from Class 150 to 170, the 168/1s only with 165 to 170.
- The 168/1s are 1266hp, the 170s are variously 800hp and 1200hp.
- The 170s have "BSI automatic" couplers, the 168/1s only have "Tightlock/BSI".
- The 170s have fewer seats (3 car units): 168/1 has 206, 170/1 has 173, 170/2 has 158, 170/3 has 174, some 170/4s have 180, others 198. Most of this is down to Chiltern Railways having abolished first class.
- Another comparison on seating (4 car units): 168/0 has 276, 168/1 has 282, 170/6 has 218.
- For completeness (2 car units): 168/1 has 128, 170/1 has 121, 170/2 has 119, 170/3 has variously 122 or 109, 170/5 is the only one which outdoes the 168s with 134 seats.
- The only other difference is that fewer problems have been reported publicly with the 168s. Interesting.
(3) What the difference between 165/0 and 168/0?
- Built by: 165/0: BREL/ABB York; 168/0: Adtranz, Derby
- Formation: 165001-165028 DMCL-DMS, 165029-165039 DMCL-MS-DMS, 168/0 DMSL(A)-MSL-MS-DMSL(B)
- Length: 165/0: end cars 75'2", middle cars 74'6"; 168/0s: 77'6"
- Width: 165/0: 9'2"; 168/0: 8'10"
- Height: 165/0: 12'5"; 168/0: 12'4"
- Seating: 165/0: 2-car: 186(16F), 3 car: 276(16F); 168/0: 4-car: 276(0F), 3-car: 203(0F)
- Seating layout: 165/0: 2+2F, 2+3S; 168/0: 2+2S
- Toilets: 165/0: 1 in DMCL; 168/0: 3 (1 in each of DMSL(A/B) and MSL)
- Weight: 165/0: 2-car: 74 metric tons, 3-car: 111 metric tons; 168/0: 4-car: 168.8 metric tons, 3-car: 127.8 metric tons
- Bogies: 165/0: BREL P3-17 and T3-17 (Powered and Trailer); 168/0: BREL P3-23 and T3-23
- Power units: 165/0: 1x Perkins 2006TWH per vehicle; 168/0: 1x MTU 6R183TD13H per vehicle
- Horsepower: 165/0: 2-car: 700hp, 3 car: 1050hp; 168/0: 1266hp
- Max Speed: 165/0: 75mph; 168/0: 100mph
- MU: 165/0: any 15x or 16x and 170; 168/0: 165, 166, 168, 170
- Body structure: 165/0: welded aluminium; 168/0: welded aluminium, steel ends
- 165001-165005 don't have Chiltern ATP and tripcocks
It's perhaps more informative to say whats the same:
- the gangway's down the middle (as opposed to on the side)
- both have Air EP brakes
- both have Hydraulic Voith T211r transmission
- both have Tightlock/BSI coupling
- both have "bi-parting sliding plug" doors
- Chiltern Railways use both stocks
- errrr... that's it
Give me a 158 anyday. BREL forever!
AEM7
Are those doors electric. I always thought they were pneumatic. They are on the Hawker-Siddeley cars we have up here.
Failure of upper door track: Is that when the door 'de-rails' and becomes jammed?
Position sensors: So doors do not just close until they can close no further? Surely that would be a simpler design -- shove the door until the door does not shove, then stop.
AEM7
Yes, DC electric motors.
Failure of upper door track: Is that when the door 'de-rails' and becomes jammed?
Or from constant abuse the tracks loosen and the door panel drops
Position sensors: So doors do not just close until they can close no further? Surely that would be a simpler design -- shove the door until the door does not shove, then stop.
Hardly. The doors actually open and close at 2 speeds in each direction. They start off at high speed but cushion resistors slow the doors so that they don't slam into the pocket or as the door panels meet. This is apart from the obstruction sensing system.
From what I've seen so far(yes I'm a regular LIRR commuter) M7 trains take longer to load and unload, and I think the doors are part of the issue.
As I said before, and I'll say again: Single leaf doors was probably the stupidest decision that could of been made.
Each door panel on the NYCT is supposed to open in 1.5 seconds and close in 2.5 seconds. Assuming the door openings are similar on the M-7s, then the M-7 panel must cover twice the distance at roughly the same speed as the NYCT door - hence 3 seconds.
I ride the C-3s on the Montauk branch on occasion and don't find the door speed objectionable.
As for the loading and unloading time on the M-7s, I've seen no data on this to support or refute your observations.
About the unload/load time: I could be dead wrong about my observations, but after riding the M7's often(lately its been around 50/50 M1/M7 for me) I guess that maybe I'm starting to see this.
Question about the M7 doors if you know: When the red LED's blink to indidate that the doors are about to close, do the crews control that as a seperate function, or do they hit the button, the LED's begin to blink and after a preset time do the doors begin to close automacially?
Back when they were new, the R-46 door chime would sound before the doors closed. Since this was before my time i can only go by what I've been told but that delay was variable.
On the M-1 and M-3 the bell usually sounds for a second or 2 before te door closes. I thought that it was part of the door circuitry. However, a conductor friend of mine showed me that it's all manual. The conductor hits the close button and then immediately hits the open button. That activates the bell and keeps the doors open.
So take your pick.
David
I've ridden the M-7's quite often and their ride quality is superior to the M-1's. Their smooth, rapid excelleration beats the pants off the M-1's, especially the M-1's that are so slow they can't get out of their way. The M-3's ride is the worst.
" Lack of soundproofing and dysfunctional air conditioning are what makes them bad cars"
What do you mean lack of sound proofing ? The M-7's on the interiors are much quieter than the M-1/3's, especially in the tunnels.
And for exterior quiet, on a concrete roadbed, the M-7's are much quieter. And what's this about dysfunctional air conditioning ? If the car you rode had bad A/C, that does not make for bad A/C for the entire fleet.
Have you ever ridden an M-1 with NO A/C ? Those end storm doors tied open are no help. They are like suanas when the A/C fails. Have you ever ridden an M-1 on a frigid cold winter day with the outside temp around 20 degress and the interior with no heat ? Well I have, and with a heavy winter coat, gloves and wool hat, I was barely warm. Another reason that I won't miss the M-1's.
" Rebuild the M1s"
Too late, the M-1's won't be rebuilt, but rather sent to Mexico for scrapping. BTW, exactly how many times have you ridden the M-7's ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I was told by a Car Inspector that last winter the M-7s were kept out of service in the snow because the A/C ducts allowed snow into the car vestibules. I never had that experience personally, however.
BTW, Amtrak dosen't seem to care about snowy vestabules.
The part of the car you are referring to are foyers, not vestabules because they are inside the climate control zone of the coach, not outside. BTW, aren't you the one who like to critisize those regurgitating faulty information?
Perhaps the LIRR ought to label them as such, and standing should be prohibited in those area. FRA regulation prohibit revenue passengers to ride in the vestibule areas.
AEM7
Mike is simply changing the issue and you are buying into it.
Ah, I see. I never read any of the earlier postings. I guess it's a problem that snow is entering the car (whereas it's less of a problem on Amfleets, where the door areas are isolated from the passenger cabins by an additional, interior door). Basic facts? Since I never have any of those (since I am not a regular rider in the NYC area), I never have this problem. I let the people who live and ride in the area fill me in on the facts. And I fill in the facts on the Boston area equipment.
AEM7
Actually, it's called the "quarterdeck".
And Technically, the quarterdeck is wherever the captain say it is.
: )
Elias
Why are elephants pink? The last time I checked, they were grey. Some mutt zebra-elephants have grey and dark grey halftone stripes. I'd imagine some have poker dots, but I haven't seen those yet. Maybe elephants are like trains, and you can paint them any color you want, and maybe with a big blue swoosh. That would be cheaper to paint on a grey elephant. Do elephants have unit numbers too?
AEM7 #902
I have the perfect solution:
Put a fat gentleman horizontally-enhanced American in a red coat and hat in each vestibule-thingy-or-whatever, turn the normal lights off, put fairy lights and tinsel up and hang up a sign saying "MTA LIRR Santa's Grotto". Then leave it up to the mommies to pay $3 a time for their kid to see Santa and explain to the kids why there are two Santas in each car...
Anyway, you're using the term vestabule out of scope. It might be called the vestabule on MNRR/LIRR, but they use a unique door configuration on American commuter rail systems. Because Subtalk is a forum spanning all commuter systems you should try to translate terms into that broader scope. Snowy vestabules are a common minor problem on passenger systems that operate in snow areas as per my photograph. Snow inside the car interrior is a much more serious problem, the implications of which would be lost on most people if you use the term vestabule. The only reason you're throwing a hissy fit is because you like to feel all smug and superrior with your anal retention of jargon minutia.
Mike, that is really rude. Have you ever seen the result of someone being clipped in a close clearance area? Do you realize that Train Dude has families too?
There's only one person that I had ever wished that were ran over by a train, and that was one toxic person who concotted a visit to my first-ever girlfriend while I was out of town, and even though I have no detail of what exactly transpired, I was extremely unhappy with this guy, and even in that case I only wished he was ran over, and not clipped in a close clearance area. Ran over is far more painless than being clipped and then dragged.
AEM7
See mike that's why I'm glad that I'm not you. If I ever do get hit by a train, though, feel free to take credit for it.
As for the other motor/mechanism - you're way out of line. You said motor failure and I said motors rarely if ever fail. It's the other parts fo the door mechanism that fail. If you think that I'm nit picking than you've got some real issues, young man. You were wrong about the door motor thing. You were wrong about the vestibule thing. I'd tell you that you were wrong for wishing that someone get hit by a train because they disagree with you but that's something your parents should have taught you. I'd guess they did a pretty piss-poor job.
I'd tell you that you were wrong for wishing that someone get hit by a train because they disagree with you
If this were true I would hate most of the people on this board, but I don't. I only truely dispise you BECAUSE of who you are and NOT because of different reasons altogether. Everything you do is in bad faith. Everthing you do is a calculated measure to further some sort of megalomaniacal quest for power. I am sick of it and I am not going to stand for it.
You know your creative uses of punctuation and capitalization is associating you with a very distinctive crowd.
You do have issues, young man.
Mike, You WILL NEVER make a railroader!
If you ever bothered to read Hot Times you'll see how much Railroad supervision cares about safety. I myself have been personally present when a dispatcher ordered an employee to violate safe practices for the sake of expediance so don't go around making regurgitating the corporate line on management's commitment to safety.
In some ways I'm glad he studied Informatics Security instead of Transportation Management. Ths way, at least he won't be able to get a top job at a railroad.
AEM7
Oh the shame!!! A chemist. Wait 'till Koi reads this!!!
Fortunately for Koi, he doesn't waste his valuable time reading flamage.
BTW, I am looking into information security positions at the FRA (it is sorely needed). From there I hope to leverage myself into a policy position.
Good luck. And be happy that no one at FRA knows who "Jersey Mike" is. I won't tell them. AEM7
Having gone through NYCT track safety training while interning for them I can tell you that wishing death on someone as a result of being clipped by a train is disgusting and shouldn't be tolerated by others on this board.
If you have a problem with Train Dude's "facist" managerial style then keep it to yourself. You have never met him so don't judge him based on what is essentially hearsay. He is a hell of a lot more useful on this board than you and actually can back up the vast majority of his statements with factual information, something you sorely lack.
No wonder you went to Wesleyan, it shows.
-Harry
Then neither should vicious hate filled racism directed at fellow Subtalkers which was demonstrated by Train Dude on this board after 9/11. After that I considered TD to be flying the black flag. No quarter offered no quarter given.
So, just because every railroad employee I have talked with have had troubles with ass hole managers and have on occasion wished them harm, dosen't actually mean that you are going to care about what I have to say so I don't usually feel any need to tell you.
Having met you I could see how you may have trouble relating to people, perhaps the only way for you to maintain any sense of sanity and esteem is to be a wannabe eccentric genius who will waste his life debating people on the most minute of details, insisting he is correct to the bitter end, even if all indications suggest he is wrong.
Site providers usually charge per MByte of storage and per Mbyte of traffic in and out. The amount of storage used for this site is quite large. Consider all the pictures. But text uses relatively little storage and also uses relatively little transmission capacity when read.
I am not completely familar with the situation, but it is my impression that Dave owns the servers outright and simply pays to have them connected, powered and located. Which probably means a base monthly fee and bandwidth fees.
Remember, when you're paying an ISP to run a large site the network traffic isn't the only thing. That's probably the largest component, but there's also disk space (less of an issue now than it once was, of course, but it still costs) and processing power. How fast you all forget that the performance of Subtalk used to be a lot worse! How do you think it got better? A little recoding and a lot of throwing money at the problem.
The TA uses running lights while the LIRR use Headlights and ditch lights. I don't call running lights ditch lights when I refer to NYCT cars.
The TA uses vertical and lateral shocks. Some properties refer to them as snubbers.
TA has motormen. Path, LIRR, NJT and Amtrak have engineers.
TA has yard motormen while some ailroads have hostlers.
The TA has hostlers too but not the same as railroad hostlers.
We call underground heavy rail systems, subways while in London, subway has a completely different meaning.
Mike, the issue was snow getting into LIRR M-7 cars. The area that the snow would accumulate was and is referred to as the vestibule by the people who built the car, by the people who maintain the cars and by the people who operate the cars. Frankly, I don't care what it's called but for the life of me, I can't understand your fanatical resistance to using the term that the LIRR uses.
Call them water closets if you wish but most people accept them as vestibules on the LIRR.Call them water closets and most people won't know what you are talking about.
Are the lateral shocks what was referred to as yaw dampers by TA personnel during our 207 St shop tour 2 years ago?
Can't believe folks have to keep beating a dead horse ... but I suppose post counts are more important to some. Hopefully the REST of us know better and will ... well ... stop. :)
Errrmmmm.... they are all from a server - link.
Wow, I didn't know the first prototype M-7's were made in 1983. I wish I had been old enough to work on that project then. Must have been so cool to spend your entire career building a train, and finally as you retire see it go into mass production and service!
This implies you are putting the input into different parts of the spectrum in order for it to be transmitted at the same time without interfering with each other. This would imply that the (pink elephant) will manhandle the passengers into seats, which would either be isolated from each other, or would be far apart so that the passengers, tied down to their seats, could wave their arms in all directions and not hit another passenger (or if they do hit another passenger, it will guarentee that both passengers will still be intact by the time they are de-multiplexed).
I do not believe the pink elephants by the doors on LIRR are equipped with this functionality, thus technically it isn't a MPDEMP.
AEM7
I believe the functionality played by that role is called a 'router'. The purpose of TCP and UDP is to maintain connexions, i.e. once the packets are routed through a variety of different routes, TCP puts them back together to form a reasonable bitstream in a way that applications can understand. Multiplexors have very little to do with the way TCP works. I suppose you could argue that the decision made by the router at the point of origin is a form of multiplexing, in the sense that the packets are 'multiplexed' over different routes to reach the same destination without interfering with each other, but most people would call this a router, and not a multiplexor.
AEM7
(I do believe I passed my IP class)
By the way, do you guys learn all about Ethernet protocol, Tokenring protocol, and all that in its gory detail? Oh and do you guys talk about SONET at all? (SONET is something I don't understand, I just remember the jargon from my IP class)
AEM7
I found a website with some good stuff on it. But by the webmaster's own admission, it is rapidly becoming irrelevant except in places with old gear and old infrastructure (third world countries?)
Link here
http://www.sonet.com/edu/edu.htm
AEM7
Arti
:0)
It's an ANSI standard.
But by the webmaster's own admission, it is rapidly becoming irrelevant except in places with old gear and old infrastructure (third world countries?)
More in US, as SONET is a US standard. Current trend is packet switcing not circuit switching.
Arti
The purpose of TCP and UDP is to maintain connexions (sic)
UDP is a stateless, connectionless protocol.
What Meriden Mike is describing as multiplexing is essentially
correct. Both TCP and UDP provide additional addressing space
beyond the 32-bit IP address, in the form of 16-bit port numbers,
which direct transport-level data to particular processes or
applications on the host computer.
However, in the telecom field, the term multiplexer usually
refers to a fixed-function device, for example a DS-1 multiplexer
which aggregrates 24 DS-0 channels into a DS-1 signal based on
Time Division Multiplexing.
Oh, I get it now. Multiplexing in the sense that the connexion (ancient Eng.) between two computers is one connexion but multiple processes could use that link AS IF they each had their individual dedicated link, so in that sense all the traffic from all the applications are multiplexed over the same transport link. Smart.
AEM7
However, houses also have vestibules, and those are not in the same place as on heavyweights, so...
vestibule n. 1. a passage, hall or antechamber between the outer door and the interior parts of a house or building. 2. a covered and enclosed space at the end of a railroad passenger car having side and trap doors for entering and leaving the train, and itself affording protected passage to the next car....
But of course my dictionary (c) 1947 does not know about M-1s.
My guess from the roots of the word, would suggest that it would be an entry way used for putting your vest on, or for taking it off when transitioning from the inside to the outside of the structure.
Elias
You've got it!
vestis, -is, f., from which (through French "veste") the English word "vest" derives means any piece of clothing.
The related verb is vestio, -ire, meaning to dress, clothe, cover, adorn.
A place in which this takes place is of course a vestibulum, initially a dressing room, which as one dressed up to go outside became specialised to being an entrance. It later devloped a figurative sense of being the beginning of something.
"Have you ever ridden an M-1 with NO A/C ? Those end storm doors tied open are no help. They are like suanas when the A/C fails. Have you ever ridden an M-1 on a frigid cold winter day with the outside temp around 20 degress and the interior with no heat ? Well I have, and with a heavy winter coat, gloves and wool hat, I was barely warm. Another reason that I won't miss the M-1's."
-
I have never had that heat problem with a M1/3
-
"exactly how many times have you ridden the M-7's ?" 7 over 1000 for the M1/3s()Lirr and MNR combined
Take a M1 trip from Flatbush Avenue to Jamaica(or vice versa), and then take that same trip with a M7. You'll find that in the M1, the tunnel nose is loud to the point where you can barely talk to somene, where as the M7 it is alot more tolerable.
The wheels on the M-1/3's are also flat, it's an autumn thing, wet leaves on rails. You failed to mention that.
"As I have not yet ridden an M7 without flat wheels, maybe it is quieter, I dont know."
They did ride quieter, before autumn. That's not Bombardier's fault. Other commuter railroads have the same problem with wet leaves on rails. Wheel truing ain't cheap.
"I have never had that heat problem with a M1/3"
I did, today in fact. Took a train from Hicksville comprised of M-1/3's. No seats so I walked to the second car, found a free seat,but NO HEAT ! No kidding.
"exactly how many times have you ridden the M-7's ?"
"7 over 1000 for the M1/3s()Lirr and MNR combined"
The more you ride the M-7, it's likely you'll get a better understanding. The consensus is that the passengers like them as well as the employees. Two of my friends are LIRR engineers and haven't said anything bad about them. And believe me, the can complain at times ! It seems only some misguided railfans who resist some form of change don't like them. Maybe because the full width cabs spelled the end of the railfan window.
Maybe someone should be on the inside of the LIRR to really understand that although the M-1's served well, they are well worn out. A multi million dollar rebuilding program for these 30 + year old commuter rail cars aren't in the best interest of the LIRR.
Don't let those shiny stainless steel bodies fool you. There are some cracks and metal fatigue plaguing these cars. If they were as resilient as the R-32's, maybe they would be rebuilt. But, that's not the case. Change is good, and it happens all the time.
Bill "Newkirk"
new equipment on a old railroad won't give you a magic carpet ride, and interior is only thing passengers notice.
but the propulsion/ braking/ and maintenance of these trains should be a big improvement over ancient M1 equipment with cam controlled eelectrical gear. the double AC systems, a better holding type toilet. etc.
The problem is with you, not the train.
Yes. Examples:
Class 142 "Pacer"
Class 144 "Railbus"
Classes 140, 141 and 143 look like versions of 142s and 144s.
Class 150 "Sprinter"
Class 153 "Half a Sprinter"
Classes 155 "Sprinter", 156 "Super Sprinter", and 158 "Express Sprinter" all look like two 153s joined together. They are all also crap, except for the 158, which can do 100mph (pity the lines are even crappier).
Imagine how a new IRT rider, just moving to the city and starting a 50 year career (given the future of social security), is going to feel about the R-142's "Stand clear of the closing door please" by the time that career is over.
By that I assume you mean by the time they go insane and leap in front of an oncomming R-142O.
I don't know about that, Ron. The area dedicated for wheelchair patrons is also near the ADA toilet. That basic area is reserved for the handicapped with handicapped signs on the exterior of the car.
Bill "Newkirk"
Elias
ROFLMAO
Points thereof are very superficial. How well do the trains run? Have they broken down? and if so, how often. How is the heat/AC system. In case of emergency, how easy is egress through the windows? (and they look larger to me.) BTW, higher seat backs perhaps would help reduce whiplash in case of hard braking or crashes? Compare such points to the past Ms.
The Straphangers' Campaign has put up this list of proposed cuts that they state came from MTA docs. (URL=www.straphangers.org/cuts/cutslist.html)
This list is taken from the preliminary 2004 NYCTA operating budget. How would you folks modify it so as to minimize the pain to the riding public? What else can we do, besides asking for more money from Albany (which we should also do), to alleviate this a bit?
Look over the list. You guys (and gals) know the stations, tunnels, tracks. Can you create a list of operational savings that would help more?
Those guys must be paid real good. :)
I don't think it's an issue of manipulating what to cut. If those cuts proposed won't have a significant effect on quality of service or maintenance, do them.
Otherwise, incrementally raise the weekly and monthly MetroCards and consider altering the discount on multi-rides. Every five years consider raising the base fare.
On the other hand, I don't know what actual benefit the public will see from increased TSSs. Do they actually promise to run trains on schedule (not early as well as not late) if they increase the number of TSSs.
Sunday, August 15, 2101.
Public officials and spectators today gathered to watch mayor D. Joseph Quimby cut the ribbon on the long-awaited and finally complete subway beneath Second Avenue.
As the mayor guided the laser beam across the carbon-fiber cable that substituted the traditional ribbon, New York finally completes a journey that has lasted nearly 200 years.
A subway underneath Second Avenue was first proposed to replace the elevated train in the 1920s, the line would have run the entire length of the avenue and been six tracks wide in places.
As time went on, money squandered and the el demolished, plans were scaled back, when construction began in the 1970s, the line was to have only two tracks.
After the city's fiscal crisis, construction ceased and never again began, until 2050, when a new, scaled down version was approved, this project is the one that New York celebrates today.
In a short speech, mayor Quimby thanked former mayor Adam West for his major contribution to the project. Mr. West spearheaded the effort to convince the city to refer to its aging rapid transit system as the Metro, and to adopt the chiefly British definition for subway.
"Without Mr. West's efforts, we would not have a Second Avenue Subway today. Thanks to Mayor West, a failed 180 year-old dream has finally allowed New Yorkers to cross 2nd Avenue at 42nd Street without worrying about being hit by a poorly-programmed robocab."
IN OTHER TRANSIT NEWS:
The NYPD has released a report showing that Chud attacks in the subway is on the rise. Plans to release a strain of bacteria that affects only Chuds has met with resistance from environmental groups, particularly PETCH, People for the Ethical Treatment of Chuds.
The Inertial Dampeners Campaign is scheduled to release their annual metro line ratings tomorrow. According to reports issued by their spokesperson, Spokesdroid #68, The Q will again get the lowest rating at $25 a ride. The low-rating is believed to be attributed to the .25 km/h speed limit on the Personhattan Bridge.
HA HA
Very funny!!!!!!
If only what you typed were true!
Hey Subtalker's
Do you ever think the SAS will ever open?
Post (or re-post) your thoughts and speculations on this matter!
Dan
Arti
The Joker would be proud of this too.
--Mike
Peace,
ANDEE
I didn't mind it personally, but I understand the objections. It did seem like a strange place to put it.
What about the one seven blocks down?
Pick up a copy of today's free amNewYork and turn to page 02.
Da Hui
til next time
Da Hui
Now, about that proposed law banning LED signage in residential neighborhoods....
Thing 1: Every neighborhood is residential to one degree or another.
Thing 2: What about NYCT and NYCDOT buses with LED destination signs? Will they be banned as well?
Hopefully this should show an absolutely crazy scheme for joining up the District Fast Lines and the LTS.
Do you think Thames Trains local riders would want to go to Paddington for any reason other than the architecture?
The train frequencies would never work...
The most that line would see would be 6tph. That is what currently runs in rush hour. Stopping patterns can be f*cked up la Great Western at will. The increase would be at the other end - there are currently 4tph to Grays via Purfleet
Me & ex-girlfriend used to ride Thames Trains from Paddington -- she was at Imperial College (with campus right by Paddington), and I would come off VWC at Euston. I'd be most upset if you replaced our memory train with a crappy District Line subway car!
The terminus that gets you soaked to the skin whilst you walk the "200m" to Euston Square.
I'd be most upset if you replaced our memory train with a crappy District Line subway car!
I was thinking of something more classy - like a modern version of A Stock ;-)
Make sure you paint it NSE colors, and have those 3+2 seating ;-)
I dunno... I personally like Rail Blue.
Rail Blue has no memories for me, except the Intercity 125 version which was the first train I rode in.
AEM7
I have vague memories of the end of Rail Blue on the Cardiff Queen St - Coryton Line (my earliest memories are of Queen St station in the snow). This of course got replaced by Regional Fail and Sprinters.
Quite what they were thinking choosing the Sprinter, I don't know. I mean they had a choice between the Class 150 Sprinter and the Class 151. I know which I'd've chosen.
Class 150 Sprinter
Class 151
(Photos lifted from web).
I'd say more along the lines of failed attempt at a Class 170. Seeing as BR could only afford a crap train, it's all aesthetic really and I find Sprinters the second ugliest type of unit on the rails today (after Pacers/Railbuses).
And no gangway.
I seem to remember the 170 has exactly that problem.
I rode on 158's all my time and I loved them.
I love the speed 158s can do. Doesn't stop them being ugly. What I really don't like is the line speed between Wigston North Junction (Leicester) and Grand Junction (Birmingham). You could put a TGV on that line and it would still top out at 70mph.
A high speed line from the WCML at B'ham Intl to the MML in South Leicester would really help the Midlands.
Nearly blessed the cab once too :-p
Nearly... I shan't ask how you accessed the cab...
Yes, and ScotRail lost commuter fares for about six months after their introduction.
I love the speed 158s can do. Doesn't stop them being ugly.
Better looking than the 170's or the crappy ass Heritage units. The only heritage units I've ever liked are the 4-VEPs and 4-CEPs, and maybe even the EPB's (the version with the flush yellow front).
What I really don't like is the line speed between Wigston North Junction (Leicester) and Grand Junction (Birmingham). You could put a TGV on that line and it would still top out at 70mph.
No, it wouldn't fit on that line. Curves are too servere, it would jacknife.
Nearly... I shan't ask how you accessed the cab...
Used a key. Not a front cab.
AEM7
Heritage units are fun for extras on Sundays. I personally prefer the 170s to the 158s in terms of styling. The 170 is let down by being a buggered up 168 and therefore by definition a fudge.
So a beefed up 168 would be my ideal modern unit.
No, it wouldn't fit on that line. Curves are too servere, it would jacknife.
D'oh! That just goes to show how much that line sucks!
Just so you know: when the 170's were introduced, they conveniently "forgot" a wheelslip mod that was done to the 158's, and those things were sitting down left right and center until they re-modded what they had already modded on the 158's. You'd think that all relevant mods would already be applied when you put out a second generation unit.
Oh, and the braking system was supposed to work with 158+170 in tandem. It didn't. At one point, a seven-car train consisting of 158+170+158 was running with brakes only on the first 158 unit due to that defect, until the driver reported "almost no brakes". Then they slapped on an operations order saying no 158+170 tandem until further notice. I never found out if it was ever fixed or not.
AEM7
It must have been, as about 6 months ago (typically not in rush hour), I got a seven car Birmingham NS - Leicester (- Stansted) train, two 158s to which they coupled a 3-car 170 on the rear whilst we were stopped in New St station. If only the Birmingham - Leicester line got 7 cars when it most needed it. (Either that or a 10-15 minute frequency).
Not sure about the Bexley extension. Its easy for people in this area to get to the south of the City and Embankment destinations anyway, and what you are proposing would probably not be able to result in fewer services through Lewisham. It may be better to go to Romford and Southend.
I suggest you make more of a distinction between inner and outer suburban to the West: Central Line to West Drayton, District Line West Drayton onwards; Bakerloo to Ealing Broadway and Greenford, Piccadilly Line all stations to Heathrow T4 loop. Then why not extend the District Line south from Heathrow T5 to Ashford and the Windsor lines.
Just a random Crossrail-esque idea that hit me last night.
The tunnels would run (from Baron's Court):
- under/alongside Piccadilly Line tunnels to South Kensington
- under the District Line to Victoria
- under Buckingham Gate, The Mall, The Strand, then cutting cross-block from Fleet St/Fetter La to City Thameslink
- deep under the Central Line, crossing beneath DLR at Bank
- under Cornhill St, Leadenhall St, Aldgate, then under the District Line to a portal somewhere in the Bromley-by-Bow area
Not sure about the Bexley extension. Its easy for people in this area to get to the south of the City and Embankment destinations anyway, and what you are proposing would probably not be able to result in fewer services through Lewisham.
The plan was to get a railway line to Thamesmead (which definitely needs it). After that, a transfer station at Abbey Wood was an obvious thing to do. East Wickham could do with rail access, but wouldn't justify it by itself. The useful bit is once you get to Bexleyheath, where the existing station is a long way from the Broadway, so an Underground line would come in handy here. The Bexley bit is to get to a suitable site for a small yard between Bexley and North Cray.
It may be better to go to Romford and Southend.
You and your GER...
I suggest you make more of a distinction between inner and outer suburban to the West: Central Line to West Drayton, District Line West Drayton onwards;
The Express Districts may be too much service out there in themseleves. I don't think there's any need for the Central Line too (plus I'd be reluctant to extend such an overcrowded line).
Piccadilly Line all stations to Heathrow T4 loop.
Another overcrowded line I was trying to kill. This I would divert to remove the need for a King's Rd Line:
Then why not extend the District Line south from Heathrow T5 to Ashford and the Windsor lines.
I like that as an idea - I might stick that one one. Possibly Heathrow T5, Ashford, Staines, Chertsey, Addlestone, Weybridge to give passengers on the SW Main Line an easy run at Heathrow.
I'm (un)surprised no-one noticed me killing Acton Main Line.
Yes, Thamesmead is lacking, but the Jubilee Line can also provide a link. All my personal rail fantasies involve closing down termini. You've managed this with Fenchurch Street, and with your scheme, either Marylebone or Paddington could close, which is excellent. Thamesmead extension does not (a) give purpose to a line lacking a purpose, or (b) contribute to closing down a terminal.
Central Line
This would actually welcome extra traffic in the West: That is the problem with the line, not only is it very unbalanced (east much busier than west) but the larger depot is on the light traffic side. With Central and District Line extensions, the traffic would come flocking in.
Heathrow Line
I presume that you intend to four-track from Acton to Heathrow? The line needs it. Passengers from Heathrow could then have a choice of all-stations Piccadilly Line to West End and Kings Cross, or Express District Line to Embankment and City. Sharing the traffic in this way would provide an excellent service and decongest the Piccadilly Line.
Not now they've wasted all that money on that dumb Canary Wharf - Blackwall - Stratford alignment. There are vested interests in proving that a success.
You've managed this with Fenchurch Street, and with your scheme, either Marylebone or Paddington could close
The idea was indeed to close Fenchurch St and clear space in Paddington station for long distance trains. The only things which I'd leave in Paddington that could be described as shorter distance would be the Slough, Reading then all stops services to Bedwyn and to Oxford.
Marylebone most definitely wouldn't close. The Local service to Gerrard's Cross would be gone, but this would be to clear paths for fast trains. What would use Marylebone would be:
- Brackley Local via Amersham and Aylesbury
- Buckingham Local via Amersham and Aylesbury (transfer to the Oxbridge Line at Verney Junction)
- Fast and Semi Fast Birmingham trains (overtaking at Banbury)
- Hereford/Worcester via Princes Risboro and Oxford
- Leicester via Grendon Underwood & Ashendon Line
Princes Risboro to Aylesbury would remain a shuttle.
I presume that you intend to four-track from Acton to Heathrow? The line needs it. Passengers from Heathrow could then have a choice of all-stations Piccadilly Line to West End and Kings Cross, or Express District Line to Embankment and City. Sharing the traffic in this way would provide an excellent service and decongest the Piccadilly Line.
I wasn't actually thinking of sending any Piccadilly Line trains that way. I was going to send them all to Clapham via Chelsea.
If I had (a) MSTS and (b) the time, it sure would!
Since all of my bookmarks have disappeared for reasons known only to Mr Gates - if at all - anyone have any idea of the site ... or what I am talking about???
http://www.subwaynavigator.com/
And don't forget to look in the Transfer Station for more subway websites.
Look.
www.subwayinfo.com sucks; it thinks the quickest way from 85 Nassau Avenue, Brooklyn, NY 11222 to 161 W 42nd St, Manhattan, NY 10036 is to transfer at Broadway from the G train to the N train. Warped or what?
hainault
And, I have photographic evidence!
It is not uncommon to have #2 line trainsets (6300 to about 6700) running as #5 trains and #5 trainsets (6700 to 7150) running on the #2 line.
Do you know if north set 7216-7220 had the #6 line or the #4 line strip maps inside?
til next time
til next time
This is NO/U> news, two sets from the #6 line were traded for two sets from the #4 line due to warranty issues with the Pelham fleet R142As (or something to that effect)...#7216-7220 and 7406-7410 were transferred to the #4, while #7681-7685 and #7726-7730 were transferred to the #6.
Incognito
This is NOT news, two sets from the #6 line were traded for two sets from the #4 line due to warranty issues with the Pelham fleet R142As (or something to that effect)...#7216-7220 and 7406-7410 were transferred to the #4, while #7681-7685 and #7726-7730 were transferred to the #6.
Incognito
Parents:
Please tell your kids that hitching or hanging out
of windows on the bus can result in injury - or worse.
The only safe ride is a ride inside
U-h-h-h-h-h-h
Buy the way Thanks for the heads you on the new one.
Robert
You probably saw that aleady!
This could be the biggest mistake NYCT has done on the R142 sets, the absence of using stainless steel interiors and using a wall coating that can be easily removed by a vandal with a box cutter.
: )
Mark
That didn't stop the vandals from hitting the R62/62A/68/68A's
Da Hui
Peace,
ANDEE
Bill "Newkirk"
Chuck Greene
The R142/A on the 4 (only the 4 have I seen this) have "JEMZ" carved into the window in thick scratchitti. The R142A on the 6 have remarkably clean windows, with just water spots on them.
I got to see a cross-sectional view of the R142 interior wall, and I just saw something that looked like plywood, with silverpaint on the outside edges.
Why couldn't they put the announcement on the Ad Racks, rather than TAPING them on the window....
--Mark
::rimshot::
::ducking the tomatoes::
Just coat the metal in mylar!
As for the interior panels, these should be modular and easy to replace if buffing out cannot save them. OnTheJuice reported that on the R142s, the paneling is permanently glued into place.
CG
Every disaster in the history of mass transportation can be traced, at least in part, to some element of human error.
Is it me or are attention spans out of control? As tired as I got on the splits, there was always something about having your face in the glass that kept you WIDE awake, especially on rush hour runs ...
According to the WMATA website, service is still disrupted as of 12:45PM.
I hope they find the wacko and crucify him.
I'd better buy as many adult diapers as I can carry and hop on Acela for DC. Could be quite profitable :)
WHEW!!!!
It seems as though some degree of caution was warranted here.
CG
Newsday.com has a link to the NYC Holiday Model Train Show. Its cool, take a look.
http://www.nynewsday.com/?track=leftnav
Take a look at the photo of Fordham Road/IND station in the Bronx. For those who are not familar with the layout of Fordham, there are 5 street entrances to that station. Four of them are one block south of Fordham Road and are located on East 188th st, all on side streets leading to the F/T booth and fare control area. The fifth entrance is on the Grand Concourse and Fordham Road, southeastern corner (P/T booth). When you see this picture you will note that only the P/T S/E corner entrance is the only staircase that is correct. The other 4 entrances are shown to be on the Grand Concourse and not on East 188th Street, there is also a double set of stairs on the N/W corner of GC/E. 188. Then no surprises here; the closed exits on the Alexanders/Caldor entrance and the entrance on the N/E corner, across the current S/E entrance are still marked. And the stair to Alexanders-Caldor itself appears to lead directly inside the store and not on the N/W corner.
Further up the picture (not shown) at Kingsbridge Road are the two southernmost staircases of the south entrance still marked on the same 2002 map, even though they have been closed for safety reasons a long time ago since the current map was printed.
DUH!
Also, where do you have access to neighborhood maps?
As for Kingsbridge, when coming up one of the two stairs (not the underpass behind the booth) you will see a false wall or gate blocking off the passageways to the south staircases.
At this point the Concourse is on a high ridge that is about five stories above 174th and 175th Streets, which accounts for the unique layout at this stop. In fact, there are four levels of traffic at this intersection. At the bottom is the Cross-Bronx Expressway, cut through in the early 1960's long after the Concourse IND and nearby Jerome Ave. IRT el were built. Next level up is 174th Street, then the IND subway tunnel, then the Concourse on top.
My apologies for this error.
There are SIX street entrances to that station. You forgot the one at the N/E corner of Fordham Rd. and GC.
>>>>The fifth entrance is on the Grand Concourse and Fordham Road, southeastern corner (P/T booth). <<<
No longer a P/T booth. This was changed into a 24 hour Metrocard entrance.
>>>The other 4 entrances are shown to be on the Grand Concourse and not on East 188th Street,<<<
Nefarious nitpicking. The entrances are just off The Grand concourse.
Your other statements are correct.
Peace,
ANDEE
Not true on PATH. The cars were exempted from the buff-strength requirement because PATH is a captive railroad. When FRA standards came into effect, PATH had to severe its links with Conrail on the Jersey side. The switches may still be in place, but to satisfy FRA requirement they are probably chained in the reset position and will probably require boltcutters to move. Does anyone know if the switches are still there?
AEM7
The broad Street subway has a connection to Septa's regional system - it's by Fern Rock - they're not FRA reguylated.
Path was, because it used to share trackage for a very long time with PRR commuter / freight trains. Note the wires over the tracks...
However, PATH retains it's special railroad grandfathering for any future eventual;ity where such grandfathering might come in handy.
AEM7
"You have tasted your worm, you have hissed my mystery lectures and you shall leave Oxford on the next town drain."
The good thing is you seem to have some of your more vitriolic impulses under control. You are at least attacking me about my lack of knowledge about a subject not often covered. That's far more preferable than your attacks on certain posters because of their religious beliefs.
Here is what I find very puzzling. RoninBayside said in your absence that YOU attacked people for their beliefs. I didn't believe him, of course. Now YOU are attacking MIKE for that. And Ron and Mike attack each other constantly. Set the record straight -- what is going on here? Who are friends and who are enemies?
AEM7
To set the record straight about Ron in Bayside, I received a chain e-mail from a friend. The thrust of the e-mail was to boycott a US Postage stamp the honored a particular religious group. Rarely do I read posts that are forwarded to me and its even rarer that I pass them along. Suffice it to say that this one got passed along to many on my Subtalk list by mistake. Once I realized that it was forwarded, I sent apologies to all that received it. Ron chose to sieze upon that incident to brand me a racist.
Yes it does because I don't. I DO however remember you saying nasty things about Islam after 9/11. Of couse you know everything and are way above throwing out a HERRING in order to discredit someone.
He has done so repeatedly, both on-line and off-line. I can recall offering specific constructive ways to support our troops in Afghanistan and support our nation's efforts to increase readiness for terrorism response. Train Dude's specific response to that was a flippant dismissal. He preferred Muslim-bashing, at that time.
If he has changed his attitude since then, that's great.
Arti
Arti
Not creating flame wars. (should have probably included talking about PATH)
Arti
Can you blame him? I've read/seen the gruesome details of many transportation accidents in books, reports, and other evidence, but I've never been on a scene when someone was actually killed, live. Train Dude has seen many more accidents first-hand than I have. But the WTC attacks were unprecendented. And he was IN NEW YORK CITY when it happened. He was probably in shock (yes, that does happen, even for the best managers).
In retrospect, I did some things in shock too. Not stupid things. If you were ever wondering who was responsible for that American flag under the Dome pictured in The Tech a few days after 9/11... (I wasn't responsible for the one on TOP of the Dome, but the one under it).
AEM7
Agreed with statement. The trouble with that here is that his pronouncements were really no different than attitiudes he had displayed before.
Also, his denial of responsibility just now is more consistent with long-standing prejudice than shock.
"Just think what it could be like if the discussion wasn't so juvenile. Several real subway experts I know won't touch this place with someone else's 10 foot pole."
I think the juvenile behavior has only gotten worse, as well as continued use of Subtalk as a chatroom and instant messaging.
I wonder whether people would hit the POST button so often if they were paying for each post they put up here.
That might be a good scheme, but then I might not post at all. Whether that would be a loss remains to be seen.
If I'm going to spend time writing a long/quality post, it's going up in a webpage and/or a publication -- not on a bulletin board forum.
AEM7
You can do that on this site too.
Elias was one of the "41 to correct spelling/grammar flames "
So I responded with a combination role of the "6 to condemn those 6 as anal-retentive " and "8 to accuse posters of being pedophiles "
I was expecting Elias to be on the ball and play the role of the"12 to post to the group that they will no longer post because they cannot handle the light bulb controversy " but for some baffling reason he totally missed the lead in and messed up the joke.
And if you still don't believe me look what CharlesG posted Here.
I quote "Oh please, why don't you just take some time away from molesting small children and answer his question."
I don't see you yelling at him.
So No-brain Dude, why don't you explain how you failed to see the BLATENTLY obvious context of that post. Is your web browser unable to display links to previous elements in a thread, are you just lazy or do you just like misrepresenting the facts.
To set the record straight, that was not the only time I had seen off-line communication of that sort from you.
"Once I realized that it was forwarded, I sent apologies to all that received it"
Wrong. You only reacted after you were called on it.
"Ron chose to sieze upon that incident to brand me a racist."
I condemned your advocacy of racist attitutes and policy. This was not an innocent mistake or gesture by you. Please be a mature adult and accept your responsibility in that.
There are no enemies here as far as I am concerned. I play with Jersey Mike and he with me. He is not an enemy; he's a very bright guy who does have some issues (don't we all)?
Independent, resolute, resilient till last, the Great AEM-7. NEVER, EVER, A TRACTION PACKAGE, OR EVEN A PIECE OF WIRE FROM ALSTOM.
AEM7
:0)
If you wanna have a fight, cream pies (your choice of flavor) seem like the perfect weapon.
BTW, the plural of trolley is is trolleys. When Y is preceeded by a vowel, you do not drop the Y and add "ies".
The banter between RoninBayside, Jersey Mike, American Pig and others here didn't strike me as playing around. It seemed more like personal attacks, which add to an uncomfortable tone here. If it's just playing around, it's even worse.
I'm again reminded of David Pirmann's observation about the juvenile nature of some of the posting here. Other than Harry (High Street) doesn't anyone else seem to be bothered by this?
"The science of these GROUPS revealed!" would have been SUFFICIENT ringing of the cluephone and final exams, but once again I'm dumbfounded at how (aside from many sidegags that I enjoyed almost as much as that tape you sent!) there is a small group of people who are VERY bright, bring GREAT information and thought stimulation to us all, but insists on trashing their own souls just to stab at one another like something out of "Wrath of Khan" just for the sake of stabbing. :(
Imagine how much more fun this place could be if we'd either offer opposing viewpoints and disagreement with SIMPLE RESPECT for one another as fellow "whinos, rhinos, and lunatics with a damned TRAIN fetish" and realize that the person you're attacking is just as SICK as you are with this silly "train thing" ... heh. I'm not well at all, I challenge ANYONE to PROFF themselves as being more sane than the rest of us.
We're one BIG dysfunctional family ... and just like the annual GATHERING of that "family from hell" we *CAN* break off into smaller groups in different rooms and just IGNORE Uncle Bert who has gas, Aunt Martha who CANNOT resist the urge to pull cheeks, and of course Uncle (insert name here) who waves his ... ummm ... viagra ... If Uncle Mordechai honks you off, then just LEAVE the room and ignore him. If Aunt Heloise insists on putting her hand down your pants to "see how much you've grown" then walk away ...
Something this ex-Bronx boy learned in living with some Mohawks and Iroquois ... walking away in silence *IS* an ANSWER! It is a VOTE! It MEANS something ... rather than RESPONDING to twits, let them die off in a world where no matter WHAT they post, ZERO responses ... none, nada, nugga. Ask yourself ... how many in your *OWN* family do you ignore and never talk to? We've ALL got relatives like that.
Subtalk *IS* a family ... "be governed accordingly."
And for those of us who have already JUDGED the motivations of someone else and have decided to flip them off entirely, why are you still JOUSTING with them? The GREATEST penalty for humankind is being OSTRACIZED ... IGNORED ... a NON-PERSON ... if the "hate thang" is what anybody's into, then "depriving them of your essence" Jack D Ripper style would be the PERFECT revenge for those whom you've "flipped the twit bit on" ... I just don't GET why the jousting continues past the FIRST "phuckyou" ...
Killfile'em, ignore'em, whatever you choose ... but if people irk you, why are you PLAYING with them in the first place? ... HEY KIDS! WOO! WOO! SLANTS on the Flushing line! :)
This message brought to you by Barney the Dinosaur. Bow, or be EATEN! (grin)
Regarding the Elias thing all I can say is that your hypocracy knows no bounds. I had no prior knowledge of what he did or who he was. I didn't even look at who posted the message when I replied. I try to treat people on Subtalk based on the content of their posts, not who they are or what groups they represent in real life (but I will not deny exceptions to this). Moreover, Elias' post was an ACTIVE PARTICIPATION in the joke making him liable for any responce within the bounds of the joke. I point you to CharlesG's previous post, that I was ripping off BTW, where he called ME a child molestor. By the standards you set forth in your own post you should be condemming him as well.
Your calls for censorship for non-serious tomfollery seeking to poke fun at Subtalk metaphysics makes you nothing but a PC thug.
And WTF? What do you think Judaism "knows?"
AEM7
Arti
Your knowlege of Middle Eastern religions is nonexistant. Christianity, Judaism and Islam all worship the same God.
AEM7
AEM7
"The prophet Elijah had a contest with the prophets of the false god Baal. When Baal did not answer their prayer Elijah ridiculed belief in this non-existent god."
"Jesus said that nobody is able come to God except through Him. If His claims are true, then, by definition, all claims to ultimate truth by other religious leaders are false."
I dare say, but could Jesus have been another false god, and what if Elijah was mistaken and Baal was really a true god?
What people consider "ultimate truth" is a function of the culture that they live in.
SO MUCH FOR RELIGIOUS STEREOTYPES
Michael, revenge is a very poor motive for doing anything. Much like Albert Einstein's opinion of sex ("the pleasure is momentary and the position is rediculous.") If you really feel you've been wronged by me try ignoring my posts instead of finding frivolous points to dispute. Eventually I'll make a big enough mistake and then you'll have your opportunity to nail me. Until then, why not enjoy the venue instead of waiting to spring some imaginary trap.
Except it wasn't Einstein who said that. It was Lord Chesterfield (1694-1773), and his actual words were:
"Sex: the pleasure is momentary, the position ridiculous, and the expense damnable."
I'm bothered by this. Every now and then I complain, but get ignored.
It's particularly sad to me that some of the most juvenile (and that's a libel on kids) posters also have a wealth of information and interesting ideas. When a pure ranter gets outrageous, I can just decide to ignore his posts, and so could everyone else. But these guys have interesting things to say amid their attacks.
My feeling is, if someone says something here that I object to seriously, I say so, and then I drop it. The constant harping on past sins is pointless.
You're taking this far too seriously. There's really nothing to it.
"It seemed more like personal attacks, which add to an uncomfortable tone here."
Move on.
No he is not, there is something to it. You're problem is that you are rude, condescending and a grade A asshole, but no matter how many people try to tell you, you consider it "playing" and you continue to act like a piece of shit. Maybe if you stopped "playing" then maybe you'd realize what makes you so reviled and you wouldn't need to be the subject of attacks.
Move on.
Move away
Jersey Mike should learn some of my tactics! For example, I use thrystors and I have dynamic brakes, unlike the E-60's!
AEM7
Oh wait!! ::slaps head:: Anyone who questions Train Dude should be punished for their audacity.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
The nice thing about standards is that there are so many from
which to choose. Obviously there isn't universal agreement about
what is safe and what is unsafe, for if there were, all local
buildings codes would be functionally identical!
That the Port Authority of NY & NJ is exempt from NYC building
code doesn't mean that _no_ code is being followed. I'm sure
if you examine the construction specs reference is made to some
well-accepted code, such as NFPA. Give me about a week and
I could find out exactly what code is used and when.
The NFPA code is very good, it is well thought out, and provides for a safe building...
The FDNY code is much stronger, providing for more robust buildings.
Point in case (about 25 years ago or so) therewas the Stauffer's Inn fire in Westchester. That building was built in Westchester, instead of 1000' feet to the South in NYC, explicitly to avoid the more stringent, more costly FDNY codes. About 30 people were killed in that fire, in a fire that COULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED under the FDNY codes.
NYC requires the walls to go all the way up to the floor above, thus compartmentalzing the plenum space. NFPA codes permit walls (partitions actually) to end at the celling, permitting an open plenum over the whole floor.
The fire was in the plenum, and it reached thousands of degrees before it burst out into a different room.
IIRC, the WTC permitted SHEET ROCK enclosures for the fire stairways. Do NYC firecodes require such stairways to be enclosed in concrete or brick? I do not know.
Elias
In some cases NYC codes (not just fire, but construction,
plumbing, electrical, etc.) are more restrictive than corresponding
national codes, and in some cases more lenient, because they
are out of sync. For example, for quite a few years, until the
recent update, the NYC electrical code was much more relaxed about
Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter outlets vs the NEC.
Shouldn't GFCI's (I assume these are the same as RCCB's, or Residual Current Circuit Breakers) be installed at the circuit level, and not the outlet level? If I were building my own house, I think I would use RCCB's at the circuit level, that way all my outlets are protected.
AEM7
You can buy a lot of GFCI outlets for the cost of a single GFCI breaker, and that gives you finer granularity.
The NYC electrical code has a bunch of oddities - one of which is that general-purpose 20A receptacles are prohibited. You can use #12 wire, but you can't have a 20A outlet or a 20A breaker. Must be from being next door to Canada (they have similar issues w/ 20A receptacles - they don't allow T-prong outlets, so you can't plug a 15A cord in their 20A outlets).
The purpose of a GFCI outlet in a home is personal safety. The device need only keep you from being injured by current, nothing more.
But can they withstand a 757 with a full load of jet fuel?
(Actually, I doubt if anything can.)
Elias
I've read some criticism that the World Trade Center's stairways were extremely narrow. I've also seen an article that claimed that the doors leading to the roof were bolted shut, supposedly to prevent suicides and vandalism to the communication equipment on the roof. If true, it's as bad as the conditions that led to many deaths at the Triangle Shirtwaist factory fire.
I don't understand why any building is exempt from the city's building and safety codes.
It might not have mattered. From what I heard, helicopter rescues off the roof of the North Tower would have been nearly impossible given the smoke and rising heat from the fire just a few floors below. Note that there was never any attempt made to put rescuers onto the roof in an attempt to open the doors.
Sadly, the jurisdictional problems between the two agencies was a factor in the 2001 disaster. Police helicopter observations about the condition of the towers never reached the fire department.
This isn't to say that they couldn't do more, but the 1993 WTC car-bombing was a huge wake-up to the PA and PATH in particular. There is only so much that could be done to retrofit safety systems into existing buildings like the WTC towers. And I'm not going to pass judgement on whether everything that could reasonably be done was indeed done.
The MTA and NYCT are exempt from all local regulations, including NYC building, fire and health codes. How safe are NYCT operations and facilities?
I've seen several instances of fire code violations by design and more by every day practice.
Have you suddenly gotten religion? :-)
For the MTA:
NYS Public Authorities Law S 1266. Special powers of the authority. In order to effectuate the purposes of this title:
4. The authority may establish and, in the case of joint service arrangements, join with others in the establishment of such schedules and standards of operations and such other rules and regulations including but not limited to rules and regulations governing the onduct and safety of the public as it may deem necessary, convenient or desirable for the use and operation of any transportation facility and related services operated by the authority or under contract, lease or other arrangement, including joint service arrangements, with the authority. Such rules and regulations governing the conduct and safety of the public shall be filed with the department of state in the manner provided by section one hundred two of the executive law. In the case of any conflict between any such rule or regulation of the authority governing the conduct or the safety of the public and any local law, ordinance, rule or regulation, such rule or regulation of the authority shall prevail. Violation of any such rule or regulation of the authority governing the conduct or the safety of the public in or upon any facility of the authority shall constitute an offense and shall be punishable by a fine not exceeding fifty dollars or imprisonment for not more than thirty days or both.
While R-10 car #3274 was "shaken" up a lot here in the disaster, car #3333 took a big hit on its side, leaving a gaping hole that was caused when it hit the center dividing wall. It made a BIG mess of things on the IND line around the Columbus Circle area, and the two wrecked R-10's would later first be towed up to the southbound middle storage track between 72nd Street and 81st Street, and then finally up to 207th Street Yard.
It was said that the hand brake in one of the R-10's on that train was the culprit of the accident, and two years later, car #3333 would be seen on Coney Island Yard awaiting to be scrapped. Check out image numbers 2575, 2576 and 2577 on the R-10 car picture section, as photographed by our own Bill "Newkirk" to see how gruesome looking the aftermath of how car #3333 really took a hit!
As an off-topic post-script, on the next day on Wednesday, December 13, 1978, I was watching on WABC-TV Channel 7 at home an episode of my all-time favorite game show "The $20,000 Pyramid" with celebrity guests Anita Gillette and David Letterman [production number #1181], which was originally taped inside ABC's Studio TV-15 at West 58th Street, two blocks away from the IND 59th Street-Columbus Circle station. For some unique and odd reason, whenever I watch this same exact episode again in reruns on cable's Game Show Network (and now in my private VHS tape collection), I always associate that telecast with the R-10 wreck at Columbus Circle of 1978.
-William A. Padron
["Thank you very much, Bob Clayton"]
I'd find it even MORE interesting if you happened to have taped the Pyramid show
which was TAPED ON the day of the incident.... (shame the nets dont put
Production DATES on their credits...
Having the 1 that AIRED on that day is cool rad...
-William A. Padron
["BASADA, Inc."]
That was our lone respite during a day of nonstop railfanning. I rode on the R-10s and BMT standards for the first time that day and actually noticed our train blowing past a local stop. Only I don't remember which train it was - probably an A or an N.
The fare will be $7.00 off a Metrocard for a subway-Airtrain ride; $2.00 for the subway, $5.00 for the Airtrain. BUT with the six for five discount, the MTA only gets $5.83 in exchange for putting $7.00 on a Metrocard. So if the Port Authority gets the full $5.00, the MTA only nets 83 cents from anyone smart enough to put $10 or more on the card.
Who said the subway was expensive?
Hopefully our heroes have already thought of this and closed that loophole. Otherwise, PA could just hire people to go out and buy discounted metrocards and swipe them on Airtrain so they could improve their profitability.
CG
CG
Assuming that PA gets $5 for every air train ride, one partial solution could be to reprogram MetroCards to differentiate between bonus $$ and paid $$. So if I pay $10 for a card, then I get $10 paid dollars and $2 bonus dollars. The Port Authority would only be allowed to deduct paid dollars from a Metrocard. Now granted if I pay for two Air Train rides with a $10 Metrocard, I will still be able to get a free subway ride out of it, meaning MTA NYCT makes $0, but thats still better then MTA NYCT making -$5, which would be the case described in a different post if people bought the cards from MTA and used it solely for Air Train. What would happen whn the Metrocard was swiped...on MTA subways and busses, they deduct bonus dollars first, then paid $$. On Port Authority facilities, they could only deduct paid $$. So if I bought a $10 Metrocard, ride Air Train twice (deducting 10 paid dollars, leaving the two bonus dollars), then I could ride the NYC subway with the remaining $2, but I would not be able to enter WTC PATH station with that card.
Another Air Train payment issue.....Metrocards are great for those who connect to the subway or bus at Howard Beach and Jamaica, but what about those who choose the LIRR from Jamaica to NYP? In my transportation classes, we are encouraged to shy away from anything which will require people to have to purchase tickets seperately. I want to say that I think LIRR TVM's do sell Metrocards...but I'm pretty sure only $4 cards are sold....they really ought to sell $5 cards for use on AirTrain. THey could also have JFK airport as a destination, and sell a ticket to Jamaica printed on a Metrocard with $5 on the card. They should also be selling these combo tickets at ticket windows as well, additionally, it wouldn't hurt to have some LIRR TVM's at JFK airport itself. Newark Air train sells the combo NJT/Air train tickets with the mag stripe on them, I don't see why LIRR can't do the same....although a lot of us here know that NJT from NYP to EWR is cheaper if one pays seperately, buying a ticket to N. Elizabeth from Penn :)
When you transfer between a private bus line and the subway,
I believe the private line gets 83 cents for the ride. However,
from the retail standpoint, it appears that the bus ride costs
$1.50 and the subway ride another $0.50, or in the other direction
the subway ride is $2.00 and the bus ride is free.
Metrobus deducts 85 cents from the bus fare with a transfer. Fairfax Connector does as well...however they put in a stipulation that every rider must pay at least 25 cents. Thus, on express routes where the fare is high, an 85 cent discount applies. On Routes 950 and 980, which connect Herndon with West Falls Church, the Fairfax County government made an exception to the $1 base fare and only charges 75 cents for the ride. So in aeffect, the ride should be "free" with a transfer, but you still have to pop a quarter in the farebox when boarding at West Falls Church with a Metrorail transfer.
I don't know for a fact that the PA gets the whole $5.00. It could be $4.17, as you say. I wouldn't call that fair (I think it should be $2.00, like the subway, or better yet $1.50, like the PATH), but I would call it less unfair.
Still, I think it's a question someone should ask, to make sure.
The brochure doesn't say $5.00. It says $7.00 from Manhattan. That's what prompted this concern -- does the MTA get only 83 cents?
(Compared to the price of a cab?)
Let's say the four people in my family were going somewhere. We could take the F to the A/C at Jay Street to the Airtrain for $28 (actually $23.32 or something with discounts) or take a car service.
Not relevant to the business traveler? It is if they are coming in in a group, or if the hotel doorman groups them in a cab.
That's one-way. Round-trip you'd be paying $56 before the discount or $50.91 after the discount.
Or, if you have a car, you could drive. Parking at JFK costs only $5 per 12 hours, with AirTrain rides tossed in for free, so if your trip is shorter than five days, you'd come out ahead.
There's another way to look at AirTrain fares. If the four of you were flying somewhere out of JFK, you'd be spending at least $600 to $800 on airfares alone, quite possibly more than double that amount. AirTrain's fare is largely insignificant as a component of your total travel cost.
Not everyone going to JFK is getting on a plane. A good chunk
of the market is those who work at the airport facility itself
and commute daily. They are getting a raw deal.
No, they are not. They are getting a monthly pass. And if their employer pareticipates in TransitChek, they can pay the $40 fee with pretax dollars. This translates into a further 25-40% discount.
From Howard Beach to JFK? I doubt you'd see a cab fare of $5 for that distance -- certainly not with two or three people in the cab.
Not that you could find any cabs at Howard Beach.
And if you got a taxi at JFK and asked the driver to take you only as far as Howard Beach, he greet you with a nice loud
Chiya Re Gwaar gana istande!
Translation: look near the bottom of this page.
You swipe it once when you board the Subway in Manhattan, you then exit the Subway at Howard Beach and enter the JFK Airtrain fare zone.
You again swipe your Metro card to pay the $5 Airtrain fee.
Does this mean that if you get on at Howard Beach and want to go to Jamaica, by changing at Airport Circle, you pay $10.00? That would be cruel (therefore it is likely to be true).
After going through that very nice exhibit, I noticed that the scence museum had a train roost, essentially a viewing room with tall glass windows and telescopes overlooking the tracks leading into the station. It was, I believe, three stories above the tracks. A loudspeaker lets you listen to the Kansas City rail dispatch center as they talk to train engineers. Various signs show you pictures of locomotives and freight cars and explains how to identify them. A sign stated that over 150 trains per day pass by.
A long hopper car consist headed by what looked like two MAC 90s came by, and Amtrak's Ann Rutledge rolled into the station (Chicago-St. Louis - Kansas City) while I was standing there.
Great spot for young rail buffs.
The cars are 1453 and 1452, with 1453 on the Princeton end.
This Is What I Live For...
Do you mean the ascending musical scale? I never saw the R143 Siemens but Siemens trains that I rode in other cities had that.
Da Hui
Da Hui
Then just like that, 324 passed through a time portal and wound up in 2003 - at Shoreline! Guess who was in the cab - Selkirk! He took the damn-the-timers attitude and wrapped the controller. We took off like a shot down the track. When it came time to stop, he deferred to Lou from Brooklyn, even holding the controller down until Lou settled in. Then it was, "Hey Kev, how's it going?". No mooing, though.:)
The best part came last. Get this: in my dream, Shoreline had not just 1689, but three other R-1/9s, including 491 aka 401!!! Talk about paradise for anyone wanting to play conductor! Makes you wonder how fast a four-car train could go there, given power limmitations.
But thanks for the chuckle nonetheless ...
I thought you were on the conservative side when you ran 1689 last year.
Oh btw, if I manage to tape that radio commercial with the two guys playing cows (Bob and Larry), I'll send it along.
But yeah, as a WORKING Arnine not subject to TWU "we don't CARE if you have the experience, show us your pass number" rules, 1689 is MIGHTY special to me as one that *RUNS* ... but were it NOT for the "rules" and "silliness" (already DID schoolcar, could stand it AGAIN) and the current day mentalities at the TA, my fantasy is bypassing the stupid civil service test and just *DO* one trip on a MOD trip with the "fleet" in the city (yes, I can do the damned "signal test" again, WD10 and all) as a guest of C divn ...
Yeah, right ... AS IF! :)
So 1689's *MIGHTY* special for this ex motor ... (salute, tip of the had and genuflecting to Eddie S, Jeff, Flash, and ALL of the patron saints of the mighty arnine!) WELL DONE! ;)
Believe it or not, I have dreams of BMT standards now and then.
Dewd ... step AWAY from the momentary switch!
I had hazmat training back when I worked in our company's repair shop. It's still good stuff to know in tech support.
So a one way fare is $51.60. Oops...I checked the adult fare...I need to check the student advantage fare since I can save. Boy was I surprised when I saw that the fare was $238 with a student advantage fare!!!! Try it yourself if you don't believe me, the station codes are WAS and ACY. Then I tried round trip fares: $103.20 adult, $238 student advantage! Then I tried seperating the fares....$90 round trip regular adult, $76.50 student advantage. THen I priced the NJT part....$13.20 adult....and you guessed it....$238 student advantage! Just for yucks, I tried NJT one way from PHL to ACY and the student advantage fare was $238!!!! One way!! Thats one darn expensive NJT ticket! I proceeded from that point, thinking it was a bug and that surely it wouldn't actually sell me this $238 ticket! Oh, but no, I clicked book selection, the total price was $238, and there were the boxes to enter my credit card #. I looked at NJT's website and determined that a round trip fare from ACY and PHL is indeed $13.20. I surprised Amtrak's computer system doesn't just put $13.20 for the student advantage fare for the NJT segment...ie, same as adult fare....so one can still book just one reservation for the entire trip, rather then have to book the NJT portion and Amtrak portion seperately (NJT portain as adult fare, Amtrak portion as Student advantage).
Also....I thought all rail fares were supposed to be the same, for the same trip, over the same route, in the same class of service. But it seems that Amtrak's daily Crescent is significantly more expensive then the thrice-weekly Cardinal between Charlottesville, and Washington DC. Regular adult fares are $47 reserved coach adult one way on Crescent, and only $30 on the Cardinal. Makes me want to make sure I travel on SUndays, Wednesdays, and Fridays so I can get this reduced fare! Its also less expensive on the cardinal then the crescent going all the way to NY ($133 vs $85). Anyone know why that is? I thought one of the advantages of Amtrak being govt. operated and owned was that these "fare games" that the airlines play didn't apply to Amtrak....we all know its much easier to exchange an Amtrak ticket then an air ticket...I think I changed my Thanksgiving tickets at least 4 times....
This is a pricing error. Write a letter to Dave Gunn's Washington Address and put Attn: VP Marketing. Pricing is on his agenda and he'll have the Revenue dept check out that bug. AEM7
Thank you for your inquiry.
Student Advantage fares are not good on NJ Transit, if you request a
fare on NJ Transit using Student Advantage the fare will be very high,
please remove the Student Advantage and request the fare as an Adult, and
you will recive the correct fare.
For further information and reservations please contact us at 1 800 USA
RAIL (872-7245).
We hope this information will assist you.
Sincerely,
Chandra
Amtrak Customer Service
---------------------------------------------------
I'm responding, I dont understand why amtrak can't fix the problem, the average person wouldn't know.
The point of buying the tickets from Amtrak as opposed to buying them from a NJT vending machine is to get the through fare...and to save time by not having to buy tickets twice. So essentially, they are telling me that either: a) I should pay full fare from DC to Philly instead of getting my 15% discount, b) I should purchase tickets seperately, meaning I'll have 2 reservation numbers, and added hassle picking up my tickets, since i'll have 2 transactions at the Quik-Trak machine, or c) its a fantastic plot to scam money from unsuspecting students to fund their underfunded railroad.
Its ticks me off that they basically admitted they know about the problem, and aren't going to fix it. I shall be writing to David Gunn about this.
Now, interestingly, you can through ticket from Amtrak to MARC and SLE as Amtrak operates and tickets MARC and SLE although I would never try it citing your sort of experiance above.
Anyway, I don't think Amtrak really grasped the problem when what's his name e-mailed them. You need to send Amtrak another e-mail and explain to them that there is a BUG in their pricing system, explain the prices you're getting and that it has nothing to do with getting %15 off the NJT trip.
My point being: for someone who doesn't know about the glitch and is booking through the website, they would end up paying more for their ticket, thinking they were saving money.
For the average person, they wouldn't know any better.
Michael
Washington, DC
They are, as a general rule. The Crescent and the Cardinal are two distinct classes of service, however. In particular, food service on the Crescent is a notch higher (full diner vs. dining-lounge) and it caters to the sleeping car passengers. The Cardinal is more of a "local" that just happens to go a long ways rather than a true through train.
Compare the Carolinian vs. Amtrak's Silver Service trains between New York and Rocky Mount, North Carolina (where they diverge) and you'll see a similar difference. I'll pay the extra bucks for the Silver Service trains any day.
You might have also run into a "rail sale", which they list in a special section of their website but which also applies automatically if you happen to select the particular train to which it applies from the main section.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I did some more investigating and found this out:
Charlottesville, VA to New York, NY:
$133 via train 20 (Crescent)
$85 via train 50 (Cardinal...only recently extended to NYP)
$119 via train 20 and 86, changing from Crescent to a regional in DC.
The best thing is the train times: Changing from the crescent to the regional only gets in 15 minutes later, despite the layover tiem of over an hour in DC! I guess regionals go faster since they don't have all the baggage cars and "Amtrak express" cars like the long distance trains. I'd probably prefer that last route since its cheaper and as for food service, Union Station's food court is tough to beat! Of course this all assumes that the crescent arrives on time, but if it was late, i'm sure exchaning the ticket for the regional train wouldn't be too hard...
You should come to the UK, the country where:
- Three return tickets (BHM-DBY, DBY-SHF, SHF-LDS) are cheaper than one (BHM-LDS).
- The same journey costs different amounts in opposite directions (cf BHM-EPS and EPS-BHM - although bizarrely EPS-BSW costs the same as BSW-EPS).
- A fare including a supplement for going a dopey route is cheaper than the normal fare (cf MAN-London Route: Any Permitted [ie NOT Chesterfield] and MAN-London Route: Chesterfield).
- You can often get away with riding the train before your ticket is valid because the guard is as bamboozled as you are.
Using separate tickets on a thru train is no longer permitted under NRCC. NYP-TRE-PHL via NJT/SEPTA is cheaper than NYP-PHL via 2V.
The same journey costs different amounts in opposite directions (cf BHM-EPS and EPS-BHM - although bizarrely EPS-BSW costs the same as BSW-EPS).
It's the commuter/reverse commuter thing.
A fare including a supplement for going a dopey route is cheaper than the normal fare (cf MAN-London Route: Any Permitted [ie NOT Chesterfield] and MAN-London Route: Chesterfield).
So it should be. Demand-based pricing. If you want to travel MML, we're going to give you a discount, because it takes longer and you get to ride suckier units.
You can often get away with riding the train before your ticket is valid because the guard is as bamboozled as you are.
They were anal when I was last there.
AEM7
As if anyone would notice or even care. When I tried that specific example, I got a bit of a whine from Birmingham NS booking office, but they couldn't prove that I didn't want to break my outward journey twice. The "ticket barrier" at Birmingham NS saw my first ticket, the guard (who came round between Derby and Chesterfield) saw my second and the ticket barrier at Leeds City saw my third. The only way that anyone could have detected this would be if the ticket barrier staff at Leeds City took out a pocket calculator and a copy of the timetable and cross-referenced it with the sale time on my tickets - even then I could have claimed to have collected them the previous afternoon.
The return was even funnier. The guard came round between Wakefield Westgate and Sheffield, so I gave him my first ticket. He came round again between Chesterfield and Derby and didn't ask me for another ticket!
It's the commuter/reverse commuter thing.
It would only be that if Birmingham NS to Epsom were the more expensive direction. In this example, the "reverse commuter" gets charged extra. And no-one would commute that length of journey anyway, so it should have more to do with long-distance travel than anything.
So it should be. Demand-based pricing. If you want to travel MML, we're going to give you a discount, because it takes longer and you get to ride suckier units.
I prefer MML's sucky units to the pre-Pendolino WCML junk. And MML give out free coffee - just as well seeing how long their trains take. MML wouldn't take that long if they had the sense to not fall for Snottingham pressure groups and give the non-stop paths South of Leicester to the Manchester trains.
They were anal when I was last there.
More can't be arsed when it comes to Central Trains. As long as you're nice to them and aren't taking the piss, no-one minds.
Oh, here's an example of dumb Central Trains:
They've split most of the former Stansted-Liverpools at Birmingham (good - it means timekeeping's better). However, on many trains, the refreshments trolley still gets on at Nuneaton Westbound. Duh!!!
Amtrak NortheastDirect from Westerly, RI travelling Southbound.
AEM7
However its not necessarily because of RR policy thats applied to every regional train...its more logistical difficulties being that a shuttle bus has to be used to take pax from the station to the platform....a unique and isolated situation. BTW, I thought this station was Kingston, not Westerly?
Eurostar could be popular as a cheap, quick way between London and Northern France and Belgium. However, they shoot themselves in the foot in a number of ways:
1) poncy check-in times that mean you might as well have gone to City Airport
2) securitimania
3) compulsory seat reservations
4) stupid overpriced pricing schemes and lack of through ticketing
5) the trains being over-built - no-one needs 20 cars - cut it down to 10.
6) the stations being over-built - Waterloo Intl really wasn't necessary - platforms 1 and 2 at Victoria had done the job for years.
"Eurostar could be popular as a cheap, quick way between London and Northern France and Belgium. However, they shoot themselves in the foot in a number of ways:
1) poncy check-in times that mean you might as well have gone to City Airport
2) securitimania
3) compulsory seat reservations
4) stupid overpriced pricing schemes and lack of through ticketing
5) the trains being over-built - no-one needs 20 cars - cut it down to 10.
6) the stations being over-built - Waterloo Intl really wasn't necessary - platforms 1 and 2 at Victoria had done the job for years."
----------------------------------------
Is London City Airport on a Tube line? I was pretty surprised when I heard that passangers at London City Airport could check in 10 minutes before flight time! (Even Eurostar business passangers have to be there 15 mins in advance I think).
The pricing scheme was what I was referencing originally....last summer I looked into taking Eurostar from London to Brussels to visit a friend...just a day trip. I found cheap tickets on Eurostar's website....29 pounds each way....but then I realized that was the British Eurostar site. When I went back and checked USA as my home country, all of a sudden the cheapest ticket I could find was like 120 euros. Can we say strange pricing? Can we say "discrimination based on national origin"? I don't know what laws are like across the pond, but here thats a definite no-no. Then I discovered that they had dirt cheap youth fares, but you had to book through a travel agent....cheapest I found was about $75 US dollars each way.
Then I found that I could buy ferry tickets across the channel on Hoverspeed from Dover to Calais for 6 pounds each way (day-return)!!! My Britrail pass to get me to Dover from Charing Cross + cheap ferry ticket, plus a call to my friend asking her if she wouldn't mind coming to Calias from Brussels for the day = a happy Mike with $$ (and pounds) in his wallet.
Just why did they build Waterloo International anyway, if Eurostars will be rerouted to St. Pancras in a few years when CTRL is finished?
Basically, all the ways you say Eurostar shot itself in the foot are things that Airlines do but RR's dont.....
I called up Amtrak and they made the appointment in 2 minutes including taking down my credit card. I wasted nearly a half an hour on the web site when a two minute call could have resolved my problems.
I later called Amtrak and told them what happend to me on their website. Seriously. I was ready to take an airplane but I really wanted to use Amtrak for the first time in my life. I told Amtrak anyone else would have given up and called an airline. I also told them they are losing MILLIONS on that overbuilt website. Amtrak needs to STOP taking orders on their website and simply provide an 800 number.
Does anyone know the fastest way for him to go from 95 St to Crescent St?
R->4 Av/9 St->F->Hoyt/Schermehorn->A/C->Broadway/ENY->J->Crescent
After Feb. '04: take the R to 59th Street, Brooklyn. Transfer across platform to the N and get off at Canal Street. Then walk to the adjacent J platform and go to Crescent Street on a Jamaica-bound train.
Alternate routes (not to save time, but in case there are delays or diversions over the Manhattan Bridge):
Take the R to 9th Street, Brooklyn. Go upstairs to the F and take it to Jay Street. Go up and over to the Brooklyn-bound platform and take the A to East NY/ Broadway Junction. Go upstairs to the J platform and go to Crescent Street on a Jamaica-bound train.
OR take F to Carroll Street or Bergen Street, get off, and wait for the G on the same platform. Take Queens-bound G to Metropolitan Ave, and transfer to the L going towards Canarsie. Get off at Eastern Parkway/Broadway Junction. Go downstairs to the J platform and go to Crescent Street on a Jamaica-bound train.
: )
Transferring from the Myrtle El to the A or E at Bridge/Jay was also by special ticket obtainable only at el stations from Sumner Ave. to Navy Street.
The reason for this seemingly cumbersome transfer procedure was because there was no free passageway between the Myrtle El and the IND subway at Jay Street. The transfer tickets permitted a one fare trip from the Myrtle El to Lower Manhattan after March 1944 when the Myrtle El's service over the Brooklyn Bridge was eliminated.
From 95th St take the R train to Lawrence St (Metrotech)
Walk out of the system one block to Jay St on the A
Take the A to Broadway Junction (It will run express) where a transfer to the J can be made.
Just make sure you have a unlimited ride MetroCard
This Is What I Live For...
The problem with the C train is NOT that it's local. The A train takes 12 minutes from Jay St to BJ, whilst the C train takes 14/15 minutes from Jay St to Rockaway Av (so, say, 16 minutes to BJ). A 4 minute difference isn't worth it. The problem is that the C train tops out at 7tph in Rush Hour, so you'll be waiting an age for it to arrive.
Now wouldn't it be useful if Lafayette St got a transfer inside fare control to the Atlantic/Pacific/Flatbush complex and the A train only switched onto the Express East of the station...
2) If skip-stop isn't running and you have an Unlimited:
R to Lawrence St
A from Jay St to BJ
J to Crescent St
3) If skip-stop isn't running and you use pay-per-ride:
R to 9th St
F to Jay St (or if a G train's on your tail transfer at Bergen then Hoyt)
A to BJ
J to Crescent St
4) If you fancy a scenic ride
R to 59th St
N to NUA
W to CI
Shuttle Bus to BB
Q to PP
S to Franklin
C to 59th St
D to Yankee Stadium
4 to 59/Lex
N/R/W to TSQ
7 to Broadway
E to Sutphin
J to Crescent
This Is What I Live For...
They managed to run the QJ for years - that must have taken at least as long. And I don't believe that A 207 th St - Far Rockaway takes less time than a J Jamaica - 95th St.
Do you mean there will be 4 R142s from each line sent to the 7?
What about that third rail issue?
Slide down too fast, and the end of the tunnel will be blocked by a wall that you'll crash into!
Did anyone ever actually find out what that building is?
It's still a mystery to me. =(
Amazing.
(Sorry - I just could not resist)
"The NEXT stop is ... MY STORAGE facility.
"Transfer is NOT available to ANYTHING."
"PLEASE STAND CLEAR OF THE WHIRLING SCRUBBER MACHINES."
What the hell is this?
Peace,
ANDEE
No, we're talking about what's being built in the middle of Corona Yard, right next to the maintenance building on the north side.
Peace,
ANDEE
Bill "Newkirk"
Peace,
ANDEE
Not always so...at many construction sites in Manhattan, they rent out office space in buildings accross the street from the site. also, because of the expected duration of the Corona upgrade, a permanant structure might make more sense. After all, they could always change it to some other use at completion.
Peace,
ANDEE
Does this mean that the (7) will have just 16 sets of R-142s?
That's the word! Politics rules. New Tech cars to the #7 and R-62As to the #4. Look for the change by March 2004. The Bronx gets screwed again.
YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST!!!
Except it seems that the (7) will only be receiving a handful from multiple lines, so the (4) should still have most of its fleet, right?
Julian
Because the (7) is slated to be retro-fitted with CBTC, and it requires the new-tech trains to do so.
In terms of safety (Yes I don't want to lose my camera), variety, and scenery... :-)
I'm thining about Smith 9th St EL, may be I should go there next week
Good luck!
Now I still havent rode on one of those yet. They seem to be quite a rare sight.
BTW, anybody ever photograph the view from 125th toward Grand Central? Its quite spectacular.
The text read "Good news." and noted that for the first time in 20(!) years, more service will be available. A picture of the Manhattan bridge was the center.
I was too tired to note the full text. I'm sure someone here will have the full text and note any punctuation errors.
Instead of saying "more service" for the first time in 20 years it ought to say "normal service" for the first time in 20 years. As we've discussed here, it is likely that 90 percent of Brooklynites currently riding the subway have never experienced "normal service." And given the state of the subway in the 1970s, only a few die hard old timers have experienced "normal service" that was any good.
They should said
NYCDOT has successfully completed the final stage of the Manhattan Bridge rehabilitation. This means trains that cross the Northside to the 6th ave line will again be available.....
There'll be more posters up in a few days I'm sure so you can all see it.
And now you know why it says "more service." "Normal service" is what most people call the pre-July 2001 service pattern.
: ) Elias
Nonsense. "Normal service" will not be achieved until the system is "finished," and that could be a century from now. Among other things, the SAS must be operating.
But this will be "normal service" as far as the bridge is concerned. Unless, in the long run, "normal service" means not operating over the bridge at all.
The system will not be "finished" until it becomes obsolete, closes, and becomes inhabited by C.H.U.Ds
Further south, spotted Rmadillo consist 6301-6302-6303-6304-6305 lined up in the foreground
waiting to enter the shop/maintenance area.
At South Ferry, as we entered the station, an Rmadillo ( 5 ) consist pulled
up alongside us, and of course I was eyeeing the curved portion of the
tracks and looking into the inner loop areas.... At the first car
position at SF outer loop, a crew was working within the grates of
the first nb moving platform (adjusting the detracting speed/sensors?)...
Nyce.
103A gap filler was not indicating reverse ("extend") due to a mechanical problem.
WHAT does HVB refer to? (there was no tell-tale objects near the sign)..
Hydraulic Valve Base? High Voltage Box? Hungry Vegas Buffoons?
I'm drawing a blank if there was anything "extra" ON the platform there...
It designates a Hose Valve Box for the station cleaner's so they can use fresh water to clean the station with a power hose, look in the area where this sign is displayed (on the platform) you'll see it.... it's covered up inside a small box sometimes they leave em' open.
In the end the area will look great. but,oh,the price of progress in mass transit!
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
of course in all 3 construction situations, business goes up in the end.
But it makes me wonder, for a neighborhood market or store, what are the reasons of their core customer base leaving due to some construction. Are people really that lazy if they're going to walk a half a block or so, and decide not to?
That's a true observation overall - but the individual business in place now may not survive to see the upturn. Lots of small businesses survive week to week with virtually no savings to keep them going in the event of a downturn. They may not survive to ever see the upturn at the end.
A good samaritan passenger gathered all of the kittens back in the box with the help of the other passengers, and got off at Eastern Parkway. She said she was going to find them a home. The incident had everyone in the car talking together which was very unusual for New York.
Many thanks.
hainault
N/R - Cortlandt Street
A/C/E - Chambers Street
E - World Trade Center
N/R - Cortlandt
A/C/E - Chambers
1/2/3/9 - Chambers
2/3 - Park Place
That's just a few. There are really a ton of ways to stop either right at or nearby the site.
If you can't convince them to use the subway, the M6 bus runs from Midtown all the way down Broadway, stopping one block east of the WTC site. The M20 bus, which is normally a little faster, runs from Midtown along 7th Avenue, with a stop in Battery Park City on Vesey Street next to the World Financial Center, just off on the NW corner of the site.
here's the schedule.
NYC Waterway ferry, Midtown - N. Hoboken
Walk through Hoboken
NYC Waterway ferry, Hoboken - World Financial Center
(hmmmm....) :-)
NYC Waterway ferry, Midtown - N. Hoboken
Walk through Hoboken
NYC Waterway ferry, Hoboken - World Financial Center
(hmmmm....) :-)
You can also take NY Water Taxi from West 44th street OR East 34th Street to WFC ;-)
It's hard to change irrational fears, but the subway is competely safe during the day...especially in Manhattan. There is NO part of the subway anywhere in the system that you need to be afraid of during the day. And although at night some people may be a bit nervous in certain areas, even at night the subway is fairly safe, and especially in Manhattan. As for any of the lines near the WTC at any time of the day, also 100% safe.
We'll start between 9 and 10 and take an R1 to Eastwick and I believe the 34 trolley back to CC via Island Ave. Next we'll hop and R2 to Warminster where we'll eat lunch at McBillion$Chain. We'll then catch the next or so R2 back to Fern Rock we'll take photos on the platform and walk around the streets around the Fern Rock BSS yard. Next its onto a BRS trainto 8th and Market where we can board the MFL to the Frankford to get ourselves updated on the demolition / new terminal. After that things are pretty open. I think someone wanted to go down to Pattison, maybe walk around the old Vet and/or head down to CP-PENNROSE. The last official part of the trip will be BSS Express rides until 6 or so. At that point I have a special un-official event planned that will involve the Rt 10 Subway-Way and a chineese food dinner.
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
Sorry, sometimes I just can't help myself.
See you on the 29th.
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
Sean@Temple
We agree. We did that on our summer trip.
Also I plan on attending this trip if possible.
Excellent idea.
Been there, done that, while acting as guide for the BERA SEPTA excursion of July, 2002. It was a Saturday, and while the group was discussing a detour with the trolley motorman, he suggested that we stop in at Elmwood and look around. Once we finally found somebody to grant permission, we had the run of the place.
Elmwood Depot yard
work car 2187
work car 2194
Red Arrow 2799
2168
2160
Peter Witt
As in me, not the line...
Today's front page cover of the newspaper can be seen at http://www.endi.com/portada and the report in Spanish is at http://www.endi.com/elpais. The caption is posted below in Spanish:
LAS DEFICIENCIAS en el Tren Urbano, atribuidas a Siemens y que han dejado en el aire la inauguracin del proyecto, podran estar vinculadas a fallas en el proceso de inspeccin de esa obra.Para proyectos como ste se contratan inspectores cuya funcin es certificar que la obra en cuestin se construy con la calidad y siguiendo las especificaciones establecidas.
There you can see my full-size pics. Is it me or do alot of them seem blurry? When viewed at the maximum (regular) size they seem blurry (1792x1200). Is that just normal?
Or should I get my camera checked out? I have a service plan, so if there's something wrong I should get it straightened out.
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
But suppose you saved a photo at 300 dots per inch. Your standard computer screen is 800 pixels across, and so 300 dpi would make that one inch take up almost half (well 3/8th actually) of the computer screen.
At 72 dots per inch one inch of photo will take up one inch of an 800 pixel screen.
I will save photos one way for printing on a press or printer, and another way for use on the internet.
It addition to all of this, you have as I explained before, different compression ratios. For the printer, I'd save a high quality file size, where as for the internet I'd dumb it way down. I like to keep my .jpgs well below 100KB each for faster download times.
Elias
I always clean my photos up (I use Adobe PhoroElements) and can increase the sharpness, contrast, and saturation there, as well as croping and adjusting file size.
With .jpgs you can specify the compression ratios: too much compression and you get files that look clumpy, to little and the files are too big to be useful on the internet.
Good shooting!
Elias
I don't know about that. I find digital images to be much sharper than scaned photos. I don't know what it is that causes the fuzziness on some of them, but usually only get it when I crop a photo or try to alter it in Photoshop.
I don't think you should have it with 1702X1200 shots. Maybe it has to do with the camera? Where they altered in Photoshop? That could also cause them to get "fuzzy" if you do certain things to them, like trying to lighten them. I don't know what causes the fuzziness.
I find digital photos generally to be very sharp.
This Is What I Live For...
I prefer that also. I usually try to put a caption for each photo, at least the location anyway. I usually arrange them by location in my permanent imagestation albums. If you take a bunch in one spot, It's easy to copy and past "Zerega Ave" into each photo. Even if you don't say anything else, it's nice to have at least the location.
As for the fuzziness, I see what you mean. See my other posts for possible causes. Do they come out of the camera like that, or do you alter them in any way, once you upload them to your computer? They can get grainy in low light situations, but some of them are grainy in good light situations. Do you take them in 1720X1200 like you said they are, or did you take them in lesser resolution and increase them to 1720X1200 resolution?
Perhaps its because my camera is an older 2.3 MP camera. Megapixels matter more when a pic is at a size like 1720x1200, right?
Ah, that's what I thought it could be. The fuzzy ones are probably the ones you tried to lighten. I had the same problem when I scanned slides on my old scanner. They would come out dark, and then when I tried to lighten them, they got grainy. Luckily my new scanner scans them properly, and they come out bright without altering...now I have to go back and rescan most of them...a job for a snowy weekend after the holidays.
As for MP, I think the larger the MP, the "larger" the size of the photo. My camera is a 4mp camera and the standard photo is about 2288 x 1712 and huge. Yours seem to be about half of that on the best quality, but they still should be crystal clear in proper lighting situations. I think your problem comes in when you try to brighten them up.
There is also the issue of your sensor chips. The older chips could only read one color, and if it was not receiving that color, it was blank.
The newer chips have the sensors stacked to that each location can report whatever color it is receiving.
The nice thing is, now that the new chips are out, they are no more expensive than the older ones. You can see the difference.
Elias
-Robert King
In Charm City we've got 2.5 inches of smow, the TV is overloaded with endless prattle about the capture of Saddam.
At BSM, Santa's Tinsel Trolley begins at 1:30PM.
Streetcars and Santa in the snow, who could ask for anything more.
The snow in Baltimore skipped the sleet for the most part and went straight to rain.
Tinsel went off as scheduled, we got a bunch of visitors who ignored the "white death" weather reports and rode with Santa anyway.
We did have to have the City Yard call in one of the trucks, since the driver happened to park his car overhanging the track. (Despite orders by the City that employees were NOT to block the car track. The truck arrived shortly and the car was moved.
The rain was fun, if your idea of fun was running a Peter Witt with a manual windshield wiper. That takes 3 hands - one on the deadman handle, one either on the brake handle or the wiper handle. The third is cranking the farebox, but we don't use that during Tinsel. :-)
One of these days, Karl, we have to drag you down to Baltimore and BSM. No excuses.
I LOVE the characterizations it gives to each line. It's like a subway horoscope, but a more appropriate name would be "Which Manhattan subway line are you?". Give it a try at: Quizilla.com.
JMZ: You're sort of a shady character. You sneak into the city under the East River, and make a hasty exit soon after. But while the tourists may steer clear of your decrepit stations, you know you're essential to the commuters who depend on you.
FVBD: You are fun, freewheeling and fast-paced. You don't only spot the latest trends; you set them. A free spirit, you're not afraid to wander out to Coney Island with your friends for a bit of surrealistic fun.
123: You are the heart of the city, yet you never take the glory for yourself. You work overtime to get the job done fast and efficiently. You take pride in knowing the city just wouldnt work if you were out of service.
ACE: You are a classic; the quintessential New Yorker. You are cultured and love to travel, though you wouldn't move from New York in a million years. Then again, you may just be a tourist, trying to see all the sights in a single day.
456: You are artistic, a bit whimsical, and less iconic than the train on the other side of the Park. Others may see you as an odd conglomeration of new and old-fashioned ideas, but you realize that's part of your charm.
QWNR: You're a bit of a follower, but you endear yourself to others by tying everything and everyone together and making life a bit easier for all of us. You know how to get the job done, but you also know how to have fun.
My zodiac roll sign is:
You are a classic; the quintessential New Yorker.
You are cultured and love to travel, though you
wouldn't move from New York in a million years.
Then again, you may just be a tourist, trying
to see all the sights in a single day.
Which New York City subway line are you?
brought to you by Quizilla
I guess it means that I'm either totally sincere or total bull$#!+
:-)
You're sort of a shady character. You sneak into
the city under the East River, and make a hasty
exit soon after. But while the tourists may
steer clear of your decrepit stations, you know
you're essential to the commuters who depend on
you.
Which New York City subway line are you?
brought to you by Quizilla
AEM7
You are the heart of the city, yet you never take
the glory for yourself. You work overtime to
get the job done fast and efficiently. You take
pride in knowing the city just wouldnt work if
you were out of service.
Which New York City subway line are you?
brought to you by Quizilla
AEM7
I wouldn't say I'm a follower, but lets see what others think.
N Broadway Line
PS: funny you say that, because many of the people who ride this line seem to be pretty conservative. which means a person with a narrow point of things.. I wouldn't say the lines represents "trying everything and everyone together" I will say, separation... and self-absorbed. I'm particularly talking about the line when it goes in Queens or Brooklyn. Manhattanites tend to be open minded.. as well as people living in the Bronx.. So I will give that More to the IRT/IND lines.. then the BMT.
BTW, IIRC, when this survey came up before, Subtalkers were predominantly JMZ's!
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
You are fun, freewheeling and fast-paced. You don't
only spot the latest trends; you set them. A
free spirit, you're not afraid to wander out to
Coney Island with your friends for a bit of
surrealistic fun.
Which New York City subway line are you?
brought to you by Quizilla
You're sort of a shady character. You sneak into
the city under the East River, and make a hasty
exit soon after. But while the tourists may
steer clear of your decrepit stations, you know
you're essential to the commuters who depend on
you.
Which New York City subway line are you?
brought to you by Quizilla
You're sort of a shady character. You sneak into
the city under the East River, and make a hasty
exit soon after. But while the tourists may
steer clear of your decrepit stations, you know
you're essential to the commuters who depend on
you.
Which New York City subway line are you?
brought to you by Quizilla
You are the heart of the city, yet you never take the glory for yourself. You work overtime to get the job done fast and efficiently. You take pride in knowing the city just wouldnt work if you were out of service.
Would there be a major public opposition to that?
PS When Archer Avenue Subway opened, was the reason to send E there, that the F was already local?
Arti
IINM, pre-Archer, the F train was the Express.
Hmmm, then why E to Jamaica Center then?
Arti
What has this to do with E?
Arti
My suspicions are that the F train would be overwhelmed if it ran to Jamaica Center, whereas the E train would be more lightly used on Hillside. If you put the F train through 53rd St, you'd probably need twice as many F trains as E trains.
Actually, that gives me an idea:
(C) 8tph
(E) 10tph WTC - 8th Lcl - 53 - Queens Exp - 179
(F) 12tph Culver - 6th Lcl - 63 - Queens Exp - Jamaica Center
(G) every other train to Continental
(R) as present
(V) 7tph
(X) 8tph WTC - 6th Lcl - 53 - Queens Exp - 179
I doubt that most of non-railfans even notice it's existance.
What's wrong with oddball s?
Not really anything.
Arti
Rumor has, that those undocumented Es from 179th Street run express.
Arti
David
If you swap terminals, then the oddball E trains would become oddball F trains.
Keep in mind that Archer/Parsons can handle only 12 trains per hour (because the diamond crossover is too far from the station). Since the current E service is more than 12 trains per hour, the "excess" trains have to use Hillside.
NO !!!
The cost of such a change would be prohibitive and would do little to add to the terminal's capacity. I believe that the unusual configuration is because the Parsons-Archer station, under the original plan, was never meant to be a terminal on the upper level. This is evidenced by the 'tail tracks' that extend about 2,000 feet beyond the station.
David
Could you quantify that?
I believe that the unusual configuration is because the Parsons-Archer station, under the original plan, was never meant to be a terminal on the upper level.
Current NYCT thinking appears to be that crossovers should be far away from the platform, e.g. plans for new South Ferry Terminal. Perhaps, Parsons Center was the first example of the TA's new terminal dogma. BTW, Archer upper level is not the first line that stopped short of its intended target. Can you think of any other example of this unusual configuration was used for a temporary terminal in the system's history?
The crossover at 21-Queensbridge was/is located immediately to the west of the station platform. It was not 300 feet from the platform.
WHYYYYYYYYYYYY?
If you're interested, ask the MTA that question, since there isn't anyone here who can give you the real answer.
Write to: Mysore Nagaraja c/O NYCT, 370 Jay Street, Brooklyn NY 11201
J would be the only direct train Downtown. Perhaps the need to change trains would reduce the stigma of express service.
Arti
It's better than nothing
So it's possible that this change would have less public oppposition, than the V/F swap did.
Arti
00,20,40 (E) Jamaica Center
02,22,42 (F) 179/Hillside
04,24,44 (E) Jamaica Center
06,26,46 (F) 179/Hillside
08,28,48 (E) 179/Hillside
10,30,50 (F) Jamaica Center
12,32,52 (E) 179/Hillside
14,34,54 (F) Jamaica Center
16,36,56 (E) 179/Hillside
18,38,58 (F) 179/Hillside
Basically Jamaica Center would get 6 Es and 6 Fs an hour and 179/Hillside would get 9 Es and 9 Fs an hour.
I'd hardly call this "headway" service.
David
David
The trains leaving 179th have a 20 minute headway, the trains going to 179th...well that's another story.
A gap of 1:11-1/2 between two of the trains, that is just sad.
David
The only way to make the "J" more attractive is to add express service on Jamaica Avenue.
N Bwy
Dear Mr. Parker:
Thank you for your letter dated March 23, 2003 regarding the Brooklyn Heritage Railway Association project (BHRA). On March 25, 2003, Mr. Bob Diamond, President of BHRA, informed NYCDOT that he was abandoning this project, five days before the contract expired on March 30, 2003.
Mr. Diamond has spent all the funding NYCDOT has provided, and four years later, there is still no trolley system in place. Aside from the City's budget constraints, we cannot sponsor this project because Mr. Diamond has been unable to demonstrate his ability to successfully manage this project to completion.
If you need furthur assistance or additional information, please contact Jai Therattil of my staff at 212-487-8311.
Thank you.
Now how about that? At least I voiced my opinion, and received a response!
"Doing something that is not shared, is like doing nothing"
Thanks for that informative response and your effort in
doing something other then whining, as most do on this board.
:>) ~ Sparky
Good job!
The answer you got from NYCDOT is accurate. The crux of the situation is very simple: NYCDOT gave him money and a fair shot to do what he wanted. Bob Diamond failed to meet his contractual obligation.
There's a lot of window dressing put around it, but that's the bottom line.
I'm sorry it didn't work out.
Northeast
The Northeast is quiet and cold as a sprawling area of Canadian high pressure moves across the region. Already though, snow is moving into West Virginia and western Virginia where 2 to 6 inches may fall by Sunday morning. Low pressure will develop off the Southeast Coast early Sunday and move steadily northward, strengthening all the time. Rain will turn heavy in southeast Virginia and the Chesapeake Bay area as the snow turns to sleet and then freezing rain in western Virginia. For the Northeast Corridor, warmer air aloft will invade ahead of the advancing storm so Washington, Philadelphia, New York City and finally Boston by Sunday night will go through the transitions from a 1-to-4-inch burst of snow to sleet and freezing rain to locally heavy rain. From west central Maryland, through the Lehigh Valley, to north Jersey and interior southern New England, a prolonged period of freezing rain could occur as the low level cold air holds in place. Heavy snow will advance northward from northern West Virginia and western Maryland, through western and northern Pennsylvania, into Upstate New York. As the low deepens, the wind will increase ahead of the storm from New Jersey to Connecticut and Rhode Island. Sunday night and Monday, the intensifying storm will move from Delaware through New England with strong possibly damaging winds for most of the Northeast, heavy snow from Upstate New York to northern New England and rain changing back to snow in southern New England and New York City. Snow accumulations could exceed 12 inches in the mountains of Pennsylvania and snow totals could max between 18 inches and 3 feet from the Mohawk Valley and Adirondacks, across Vermont and the northern half of New Hampshire, to much of Maine, especially away from the coast. The weather will calm down Tuesday, but a new storm will begin to move from the Midwest into the region Tuesday night. Temperatures should warm up so more rain and less snow will be involved at least initially.
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
PS...mebbe your mouse is too vulnerable to these threads?
Go to sleep and WAKE UP!
aww I was thinking to bring my camera tomorrow and get some shots from Smith 9 st and hoping some GO...oh well I'm going tomorrow anyway
One day cities will have large devices that attract air and cause permanent immobile high pressure cells in cities, it will never rain, nor snow nor sleet nor hail. Cities are already artificial, might as well make it complete. If you want snow, move to the boondocks.
I don't attack people around here "in board" either.
Its seems to me that you really have an attitude problem.
By all means you're entitled to your opinion.
I don't know you and you know me.
You're saying I know you?!? You're not that guy on the corner by the subway who hands me my amNewYork newspaper every morning are you?
AND I don't appreciate the way how you respond my post.
Sounds like I'm a candidate for the killfile, but I don't want to tell you what to do.
If you have problem with me or any thing I said here in this board.
What are you asking?
Why u just Act like real man by email me and tell me to my face that you have problem with me and and my post instead act like a SISSY trying to show everyone in this board that "you're all that" with your disgusting filty attitude.
So you're saying that by emailing you, I'm telling you stuff more "in your face" than if you read it here? I disagree with your logic.
I don't know how Dave Pirman put up with filty crappy post and your insults.
He probably has me killfiled.
That's some good advice. I'll have to consider it. Come to think of it, why should I follow that advice when you don't? You didn't like my post and yet you still responded to it. I see a double standard...
This way it will save me the time in talking to ignorant a** like yourself.
No, it is up to you to save your own time. I suggest using the killfile.
BTW, Your fake a** handle really annoys the crap out of me and maybe everyone on this board. I can really tell your not one of them.
How is my handle any "faker" than anyone else's here? Everyone else *loves* my handle. What am I not "one of?"
You're simply just an annoying ignorant a** who try to act smart (which you're not) and fresh.
How am I ignorant? And how am I "not smart?"
Also, I would really appreciate if you would just "GET A LIFE."
What kind of life? A life like you have? No thanks.
Your attitude is really really stinks like an odor of a dead skunk inside the trash can and that really annoys me alots..
After telling someone that they aren't smart, you might want to proofread your writing a bit to make sure that you don't then seem stupid. It seems you didn't do that and your last sentence does indeed make you look pretty stupid, but I'm not going to make a judgment.
http://www.astorialic.org/topics/industry/industry.shtm
Arti
Here's an R-38 at 2nd Avenue.
Here's a confused sign.
Another one.
Upside-down.
Hmmm, what's this?
LOL...was that the JFK super express couple years ago? ;-)
Da Hui
I now have a VERY novel way of getting even with C/R's who do this.
Click
The thud after "Closing doors please" is the sound of my heavy as heck backpack being tossed off the seat and squarely into the doorway.
I agree that it sounds very unprofessional to have the announcements suddenly cut off in the middle of a message, but some of the C/R's on the (6) are very good are cutting their messages off in the Bronx, so it doesn't sound like you're missing anything.
"This. Is a Pelham Bay Park-bound (6) train. Stand clear of the closing doors *ding dong*"
Peace,
ANDEE
Is he throwing his backpack at the conductor's cab as revenge, or is he sticking his bag in the passenger doorway to force him to play the entire announcement?
Words cannot describe how lame he really is when doing that.
If I see him do that (I know what he looks like), I'm definitely kicking his bag off the train and have him run to pick it up.
Regards,
Jimmy
Adam
Telephonics announcement system 101: Once announcemnts are interupted, they (generally) do not continue to play- they're finished.
Uhhhh.......By blocking the doors, you are delaying service. Which is why you're receiving the negative publicity from the people in here.
At 18th Ave around 12:45PM or so, I saw a northbound garbage train of three flatcars with steel dumpsters bracketed by two R-127's. I though garbage trains come out late at night like the revenue trains.
If I should be at the same station at the same time next Saturday, would I encounter the same garbage train, or was this a lucky situation ?
BTW - Nathans was selling Christmas ornaments for 79 cents each, two styles and boxed.
Bill "Newkirk"
Anyway i also saw a garbage train but that was yesterday...it was leaving grand ave. going forest hills bound around 5pm. I was suprised the garbage train was even faster than my R46!
If I should be at the same station at the same time next Saturday, would I encounter the same garbage train, or was this a lucky situation ?
Garbage train? No, didn't you hear, those are the 3rd class cars. It'll become normal service on the Culver line over the next few weeks.
Stepping from a plane at Denver International Airport and being whisked downtown in 30 minutes via high-speed train -- dodging the cab line at the door and the traffic jams on Interstate 70 -- has been developer Doug Jones' dream for 10 years.
But while no one doubts the importance of building a quick avenue from DIA to the heart of downtown, who will pay to build what is estimated to be a $701 million project, called the air train, remains the sticking point.
:0)
The line out to the airport will be the A (for Airport) line. B is reserved for a proposed line to Boulder.
AEM7
The NIMBYS in Ruxton & Riderwood fought the line, claiming that the line would bring "undesirables" (read: those people") into their upscale neighborhoods, plus the noise from the trains would disturb the tranquality of the area. (We did mention during the meetings that "those people" would do exactly what they had been doing - breaking into the houses, stealing the stuff, and stealing a car to take the swag out, but the NIMBYS didn't want to hear that.)
The line was built, but without stops in Ruxton and Riderwood.
So now, after 11 years, guess what?
The residents of Ruxton and Riderwood now want stations!!!!
As to the "noise", here's a comment on that:
The former Riderwood station from PRR days is right next to the tracks. It is now a private house, and the resident (who has been there since 1960) comments that he can't even hear the LRV's when they pass.
He BTW, can't wait for a Riderwood LRV station.
A plan as big as FastTracks can easily go the way of the Second System plan. If something isn't done to hold RTD's feet to the fire, some of the corridors will be unilaterally priortized right out of existence. Look, I want this thing to pass, but not by misleading people into thinking the schedule will go a particular way, when in reality it won't, it can't, and it shouldn't.
AEM7
...Now that's what I call city planning.
As well as being about 30 miles out of the city, the airport is about as big as the city too - the first several miles of the proposed rail line would be inside the airport perimeter!
23 miles in 30 minutes…that’s a 46 mph average speed. Not exactly high-speed, but then again, that term has always been loosely applied (nobody would ever mistake the PATCO “High-Speed Line” between Philadelphia and Lindenwold NJ for the TGV, that’s for sure).
Good to see that they are at least considering FRA-rail for it, what with the references to using Union Station for the terminal. BBD bilevels hauled by Motive Power Inc’s MP36PH-3C should do the trick nicely…
What problems? Please be specific.
What other kind of problems could you have with a locomotive, besides mechanical ones?
Electrical, pneumatic, structural...
David
Wasn't Chicago's Metra having problems with those locos?
That would be quite hard, since they don’t have any; they have the MP36PH-3S. (One of those recently derailed, apparently due to moving across a 10-mph crossover at 60 mph.)
The MP36PH-3C is the version that Caltrain uses on their Baby Bullets; apparently the major difference between 3C and 3S is that the former uses pony-engine HEP and the latter runs HEP off the prime-mover. Caltrain operators (Amtrak employees) that I’ve corresponded with seem to like them better than the F40PHs…
Da Hui
2.in what yard,s is it done on?
3.do all the R42 have the black flooring(with the exception of R42#4665)
4.i also herd here that there are some R38 and R40 that have the black
flooring,is that true?(the R38 don,t deserve the black flooring.the
R40 would look nice with the flooring,but they might get scraped first
when the R160 arrive.)
5.some of the R62 and R68 have the black flooring,will they all have
the black flooring at some point?
til next time
2.in what yard,s is it done on?
It's not done in a yard. The flooring is being done in the overhaul shop.
3.do all the R42 have the black flooring(with the exception of R42#4665)
???????????????
4.i also herd here that there are some R38 and R40 that have the black
flooring,is that true?(the R38 don,t deserve the black flooring.the
R40 would look nice with the flooring,but they might get scraped first
when the R160 arrive.)
????????????????????
5.some of the R62 and R68 have the black flooring,will they all have
the black flooring at some point?
Yes! The first 156 R-68s will have theeir new flooringby the end of 2003. I'm not sure about the timetable for the R-62s
WAIT A SECOND -- IS BLOOMBERG LEANING AGAINST THE DOOR?!
This GO previously was in effect three weeks ago, but I unfortunately missed it due to preoccupation with the return of PATH to lower Manhattan. It apparently was cancelled last weekend due to the snowstorm. Well, it was obviously cancelled THIS weekend as well, possibly due to the forecast of more inclement weather.
Everything ran as usual: alternate A's going to Far Rockaway with connection at Broad Channel for shuttle to Rockaway Park. The outbound platform at Beach 90th had paper signs directing to a shuttle bus. I only had time to ride from Rockaway Boulevard to Park and back, so have no idea whether there were posted advisories of the GO at A train platforms in Manhattan.
Last weekend's GO having all Brooklyn-to-Mahattan Montague tunnel service going over the Bridge instead was cancelled- again, probably due to the weather. But nobody bothered to remove the "No Trains at This Station December 6th and 7th" signs from the stations that would've been bypassed had the GO gone off as scheduled. This caused tremendous confusion on the uptown Whitehall Street platform. In fact, the bulletin board in the token booth at Whitehall still advised of the GO! The station agent didn't seem aware of the rescinded GO.
An interesting sidelight: In the Rockaway Park yard was a full R32 consist signed as an A from 207th to Rockaway Park. I've never known the special peak directional Rock Park A's to be anything OTHER than R44s. And don't those only go as far as 59th? Or is there no 59th Street on the northbound terminal roll?
-William A. Padron
["Wash.Hts.-207th St."]
-William A. Padron
["Wash.Hts.-8th Av.Exp."]
I saw one of those a few months ago...
Too bad. On Friday evening, the last two Rockaway Park "A" trains were R32s and R38s respectively.
If the GO did go on as planned this weekend, it probably would have been a bad time to wait for an R38 because they were almost non existant on the Far Rockaway "A" Friday night.
On my way to the ERA that evening, I missed an R38 by two trains. I rode the "A" from Rockaway to Chambers St and I did not see not one R38 on the Far Rockaway "A" the entire length of the trip. The same thing coming back. Funny thing about it I saw the R38s on the Lefferts and Rockaway Park "A"s.
I'm not saying there were not running them, I'm just saying it would have been very hard to catch one.
so have no idea whether there were posted advisories of the GO at A train platforms in Manhattan.
I didn't see one in Manhattan, but I did see a BIG posting at my station out here in Rockaway.
I've never known the special peak directional Rock Park A's to be anything OTHER than R44s.
The Rockaway Park "A" trains have been running R38s since the very beginning. For years, the TA would only R44s on this "A" in both directions Mondays thru Thursday. But on Friday evenings, the Rockaway Park "A" was exclusively R38s. Withing the last two years, the TA started operating R44s to Rockaway Park as well on Friday evenings. Within the last year the TA started adding R32s to the mix.
I don't think they'll be able to make the entrance on the west side of Flatbush Ave bigger, since it's inside a building right?. It would be really nice if they could make the mezzanine roof a little higher, its very stuffy in there when its crowded after school.
Also, are they going to extend the mosaic to the new curtain wall they installed between the express tracks? I guess they're not gonna remove those brown tiles from the local track walls either.
It's coming out very nice, except those floor tiles get dirty quick. I wonder why they didn't use the glossy ones they used at 36th Street (which really brightens up the station too).
De Kalb is my favorite station, btw =D
The tactile warning strips at the edge of the platform are slippery, though.
The graphic clearly states the W Astoria-Whitehall service will run weekdays only. That's all well and good. The text has the B replacing the Q 'diamond' Brighton express with no further explanation. But is the B only to run on weekdays, terminating midday at 145th and continuing to the Bronx during rush as it had been? Will there be seven-day Brighton express service, and two services along CPW seven days a week as well? It's not at all clear as presented.
It's also implied that there will be TWO services, the N AND Q, using the Bridge 24/7. Am I correct in assuming that, during the wee hours when the R historically doesn't run, the N will run local through Montague?
I apologize in advance if I'm rehashing questions that have probably been addressed before. There are two misgivings I can't help but have:
1. Continued harsh winter weather will postpone this service change until March or April.
2. A week or so after the new service pattern begins, new strutural damage will be discovered on the Bridge that the MTA and NYSDOT will blame each other for. It will be deemed unsafe to carry train traffic on one side or the other and we'll be back to either 1985-2001 (south side closed) or 2001-04 (north side closed) conditions again. Remember, we had both sides open for a couple of weeks in fall 1990. THAT was supposed to be the be-all and end-all.
Thirteen years later, we're trying again.
N Broadway Line
PS: Starting February 1st.. I will be "W" Broadway Local. Stay Tune! Bye Sea Beach.. Bye Brooklyn.. Because Queens and Manhattan is here to stay.
W Broadway Local
Now, since my office is at the City Hall station, I will be renaming my screen name to "W" since it will soon be serving this station.
N Bwy
W Broadway Local
Astoria Broadway Whitehall Street
No.. I run my own business and have established an office downtown for a number of years now.
"how long has the "W" been your favorite train?"
Since the first day of service. Before then, I couldn't stand having to wait for a crowded train that ran every 12 minutes during run hours. That hasn't change, but at least I have another option to avoid waiting.
N Bwy - W Bwy Local
PS: When I say I have options, I do.. I normally use the W express into 14th Street for the local connection. Usually an "R" of course... since it seems to run a little more often then the Never "N" And visa versa (R into the W for my trip back home).
I hate to say this ... but when 911 happened and the N and R were canceled... I was happy.. WHY? Because during their absence.. the W and Q ran better..
For instance, particularly the Q line.. when I used it to go into Jamaica... I NEVER HAD TO WAIT FOR IT!
NOW! Since the "Regular" service has returned... THE R and V takes FOREVER TO COME!!!
I often try to figure out what is the difference between the V and G.. except for the fact the G doesn't go to Manhatan.. They both run very similar...
W Broadway Line
I don't have the same sentiments about "V" as you do, however, I did notice that the "Q" (by itself) provided more then what is there now. But what I didn't tell you in the last post was that most of all the trains were practically empty. So, as good as they were, the service appear too much for this cooridor.
Kind of reminds me when the "E" was filling in for the missing "C" in Brooklyn. Great service, but too much to be worth saving.
N Broadway Line
NoCanDo!
Trains from Queens run on the "local" tracks in Manhattan and the local tracks do not serve Christie Street (and Grand Avenue).
Elias
If trains on the local track in Manhattan cannot serve Grand Avenue, then how is it that the V stops there between its stops at Elmhurst Avenue and Woodhaven Boulevard? :-)
Well, lets just say that piece of junky service in nothing but trouble since it was created. That thing doesn 't even worth everyone's $2 fare. I rather paid a one cents to ride that junk.
No Grand St Shuttle would have meant tons of bickering from you and your fellow residents from Chinatown. Grand St actually would have been closed during the entire time the Bridge was under construction had it not been for Chinatown clamoring for service. The Grand St Shuttle was the least they could do.
You got *that* Right.
Except the W will lose most of its identity, namely weekday Broadway express, Manny B and 4th Avenue express. It will, however, continue to perform valuable weekday supporting service to the N on the very crowded Astoria line. I would imagine that's why you really like it.
These changes all take place Sunday, February 1? That's Super Bowl Sunday! Lucky I'm not a football fan. The trains will be relatively empty that afternoon, hence making railfanning much easier.
Da Hui
When I first started posting on Subway Talk, it was about my complaints about the lack of service on the "VERY CROWDED" Astoria line. But after the "W" line was created, I just automatically fell in love with it. It was like a reunion with a person I didn't see in a long time..
N Bwy
N Broadway Line
PS: Starting February 1st.. I will be "W" Broadway Local. Stay Tune! Bye Sea Beach.. Bye Brooklyn.. Because Queens and Manhattan is here to stay.
I suggest a campaign for four beach specials per hour on sunny weekend days and holidays, and on weekdays during non-rush hours. That would complete a true restoration of the good old days.
The trains would relay north of Queensboro, make local stops to Price Street, then travel over the Manhattan Bridge like the weekend Sea Beach. After stopping at 36th and 59th, yhey would then travel non-stop from 59th to Coney Island.
The weekday specials would run to Coney Island beginning after the AM rush hour and ending before the PM rush hour. After the PM rush hour, specials would run in the other direction.
Weekend specials would start at 9 am to Coney Island and 11 am from Coney Island.
I don't think it's a great idea, only because it would be even emptier than the NX was.
Thank GOD my W train is remain so I can maintain my one way trip to City Hall.
N Broadway Line
Note to the MTA, please do not throw me a curve and change your mind.
Congratulations! I hope it turns out well.. With me, I see it good on both side.. Since the "W" runs more often... and it will serve the City Hall Station.. I think we are both getting a good deal.
W Broadway Local
N Bwy
W Bwy
Astoria Lines
Since both run approximately the same hours, it is not that confusing.
It's also implied that there will be TWO services, the N AND Q, using the Bridge 24/7.
The map, and many signs, do not depict night services.
1. Continued harsh winter weather will postpone this service change until March or April.
When has this ever happened? Do you expect this winter to be the return of the Pleistocene?
Remember, we had both sides open for a couple of weeks in fall 1990. THAT was supposed to be the be-all and end-all.
It was not. The plan was to last only a few months and as a result, the Q did not return to Broadway at that time.
I have heard this before, but I can testify to the fact that N service was removed from the bridge in an unplanned way in the middle of a week shortly after Christmas 1990. How long was this routing gonna last anyway?
(I have a 9/30/90 map but I can't seem to locate it. I'd love to see a copy of that brochure.)
Thanks.
As worried as I am about the future of the bridge, I think it will take more than a couple of weeks. Perhaps a couple of decades.
I have nothing more to say but: DUH!
The bridge was damaged because of deferred maintenance, just because the bridge's long GOH may be done, doesn't mean that it doesn't need an SMS.
And they are not based on reality or logic. Do you see bridge service being eliminated now because of snowstorms?
Bridge service will return on schedule. The steel braces installed on the south side have held up as expected to heavy use since 2001 and NYCDOT engineers will continue checking to see how the bridge performs.
Move on. This is getting boring.
Another source is the very fact that subway service has been uninterrupted in that time, across the bridge. Had new cracks been discovered, it is highly unlikely we would have heard nothing about it.
Now the MTA's final bridge plan has been approved. This would not have occurred without NYCDOT's approval, since they are the ones who did the repair.
----------------
I'm coming to New York tomorrow (Monday), staying a week. Want to get together? Email me offline. I'd send you a note coutesy of Queens College or Cooper Union, but I still don't see any mention of you there (and therefore contact information on how to get a hold of you).
The south side of the bridge didn't close until late 1988. From 1985 to late 88, the north side was closed just like it currently is. The difference is the designation of services. Under the 85-88 service, the split B and D services were both called B and D, this time they are B and D on 6th Avenue and Q and W on Broadway.
However, yesterday I was at the fare controls at East 180th, 59th/Lex, Lex/53 and 71/Continental. The poster was not at any of these locations.
Da Hui
But none at Norwood.
Do we have any ideas on what is happening to the (in my opinion useless) V train? And what exactly does the M have to do with the Manhattan Bridge? I've noticed it mentioned on (the non-specific) posters but don't see any changes to its service.
Is the Q still running via Broadway and terminating at 57th St.? If so, why?--Are there any improvements to the Queens Boulevard service? I had gotten my hopes up that we might see at least the Q head out there, maybe replacing the F as the express (with the F replacing the V and the V disappearing)--it would make my excursions to Target much easier.
I'm a little disappointed by the decision to keep the now redundant W service--with it having to terminate at Whitehall, won't it be just as useless as the V currently is (and will apparently continue to be)? I guess the utility of having extra capacity primarily in Manhattan is something to be spoken for in both cases, but the fact that both lines will diverge from their counterparts (the R & F) in Queens can lead to a lot of waiting around for trains which run ridiculously infrequently.
David
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
"For those of you out there shedding crocodile tears at the emasculation of the W all I can say is tough #$%^!!!!! My Sea Beach has been stuck in that filthy Montague rathole for almost two decades and a breath of fresh Manny B air is long overdue. I have always considered my train the Broadway Express in Manhattan and not a damn local. Finally some sanity has entered the picture and the day of deliverance is at hand."
GOOD! Now I can get the kind of service that I deserve!!! The "W" runs better and uses nicer cars.. And I just LOOOOOVVVVEEE IT!!!! HAHAHAA!!!!
W Broadway Line
N Broadway Line
Q still terminates at 57/7, mostly because there is no place to terminate at.
The W is hardly redundant. The R alone could not possibly handle the Broadway local, and the growing ridership in Astoria has rendered the N alone insufficient there. Short-turns at Whitehall are nothing new -- look at the historical maps on this site.
Why would you expect any changes in Queens? With your suggestion, only one of four Queens routes would serve the busy 53rd Street corridor, while two routes would serve the less useful 63rd Street line. Passengers at Queens local stations between Roosevelt and Queens Plaza trying to get to 53rd would have to wait for an R (not an F) to take them to Queens Plaza and then transfer to an E (and if you thought E's were crowded now...).
Your excursions to Target do not dictate service patterns, I'm afraid. Incidentally, is there a Target near an express station? The only one I'm aware of near the subway is at a local station. Take the R or V and be done with it.
Why would someone who apparently lives along the Queens Boulevard line go to a Target in Brooklyn when there's a perfectly good target on Queens Boulevard itself?
Seriously, though, you asked if there was a Target near an express station, not a Target near an express station that would be relevant to the original poster, so I chimed in.
hmmmmmm
Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! FINALLY! someone is using their head!
W Bwy Lcl
W Bwy Local
No, not duplication. The 4th Av Local needs two services. Sending one to Broadway and the other to Nassau St may be fine in the morning - you ride the first train and walk from whichever, but which station are you meant to go to in the evening to get back to Brooklyn? This is why the W train would be more useful than the M train (plus it would let West End riders keep their one seat ride to Broadway).
I have posted the same thought myself. But having recently done the crosstown walk on Wall St in miserable weather, I can see the appeal to customers of splintered service. Broadway takes forever to cross. I can see a lot of people preferring to take the M if it's nearer, rather than twice as much service just under Church St/Trinity Place.
I'm amazed it isn't pedestrianised.
People prefer the "M" line, because it has better downtown connections than the Broadway Line.
The "M" also doesn't have the delays that many Broadway lines have. I say that the "M" should stay... and the "W" should not go into Brooklyn... which is the way it is.. And I'm satisfied with this new service plan.
W Broadway Local
There needs to be a least one Nassau Service going into Brooklyn... The "M" is better than the "W" because you already have 2 Broadway service into Broadway. Plus, any delays that occurs in Brooklyn (which is often), at least you still have the W line... The "W" is too important to sacrafice, just so you can duplicate service.
W Broadway Local
Understand SOUTH Brooklyn before anyone points out the J train goes to Brooklyn...
Why? It serves exactly the same part of Manhattan as the Broadway Local, it's unnecessary splitting of service and the trains are too short.
Plus, any delays that occurs in Brooklyn (which is often), at least you still have the W line...
If all the trains are delayed, you just get on the train that should have turned up an interval before it did - no big deal. If there's a serious problem, trains would get short turned.
The "W" is too important to sacrafice, just so you can duplicate service.
No sacrifice involved.
As a subway enthusiast I tend to agree with you. However, you might feel less strongly in your opinion if you have ever had to walk from Wall and Broad St. to Rector and Trinity Place when it is 40 degree F, with a 40 mph wind, and raining at a rate of one inch per hour.
Adding to your discomfort would be a certain degree of trepidation due to the fact that you can't really 100% rely on traffic on Broadway and Trinity Place to stop for red lights. After all, there's no cross traffic that could hit their vehicle.
The problem is the wait in the afternoon. Each of the two lines has infrequent service to Brooklyn. And remember, that is the way to get to Brooklyn for everyone Downtown who rides the Brighton, West End, Sea Beach, or 4th Avenue line. The wait outweights the walk, which is not very far in reality. In the morning, of course, you can take either the M or the R, and just walk from whatever station you end up in.
For my part, in the afternoon I take the 4/5 up to the A/C and down to the F, rather than the N/R to the F. Even with the N and R, the wait is too much for me, especially with the N going express and not stopping at 4th Avenue. If the W ran through to Brooklyn, those who really did not want to walk would have the similar option of taking the J/M/Z up to Canal Street and then riding the N/Q downtown.
Who wouldn't - it's a cool line, especially with it being so overbuilt, except annoyingly for where it needs it - a 4 track Broad St station would be useful:
For my part, in the afternoon I take the 4/5 up to the A/C and down to the F, rather than the N/R to the F.
I do suspect, however, that there is another significant factor of not much liking the prospect of climbing all the way up from the BMT to the IND at 9th St/4th Av.
(I don't know how passengers at the local stops between Court and 36th feel.)
Were they asked whether they preferred that even if it would fragment local service? How about that question put to West End plus the entirity of 4th Av?
My train isn't redundant.. and I don't appreciate you saying that.. It fills a BIG void.. so please stop picking on my line unless you rode the "N" before the "W" was brought in..
Thank you VERY MUCH!!!
W Broadway Local
Hey, what better does a 17 year old amnesia victim have to do at 3 in the morning?
Do we have any ideas on what is happening to the (in my opinion useless) V train?
The "useless" V train is here to stay, because the statistics says your opinion is wrong.
And what exactly does the M have to do with the Manhattan Bridge? I've noticed it mentioned on (the non-specific) posters but don't see any changes to its service.
The M has everything to do with the Manhatthan Bridge changes. Since D trains (D, not B) will run on the West End at all times, and the Chinatown people once again have 24 hour service from Grand Street to Brooklyn, the M will be cut back to rush hour service only.
Is the Q still running via Broadway and terminating at 57th St.?
Yes
If so, why?--Are there any improvements to the Queens Boulevard service?
Yes there are improvements to Queens Blvd service. It's called the "useless" V.
I had gotten my hopes up that we might see at least the Q head out there, maybe replacing the F as the express (with the F replacing the V and the V disappearing)--it would make my excursions to Target much easier.
In that case, can we make the 4 stop at 28th street, kick everyone off so I can get a seat, make the 6 skip that stop, and make the 5 disappear? It would make my excursions to school much easier.
I'm a little disappointed by the decision to keep the now redundant W service--with it having to terminate at Whitehall, won't it be just as useless as the V currently is (and will apparently continue to be)?
I take it you're one of those people who found the addition of V service to Quenns BLVD annoying since you lost your one seat express (or local) ride to/from a shopping store.
The V is here to stay. Get over it.
Get your W merchandise while you still can. I give it 5 years max before it goes the way of the EE (the same exact route, different letters).
I guess the utility of having extra capacity primarily in Manhattan is something to be spoken for in both cases, but the fact that both lines will diverge from their counterparts (the R & F) in Queens can lead to a lot of waiting around for trains which run ridiculously infrequently.
Its amazing how something about the Manhatthan bridge can turn into a rant about the V.
The thing is, the W is a attempt to fill in local service once the N takes its rightful throne as the Broadway Express. So I do have some faith in it.
V line kicks ass. Get over it.
The EE originated at Continental, not Ditmars.
Q Bwy Express
The Q has mature over the years. After being the unforgotten child of the Brighton Line, it now becomes the Full time service. WOW! I'm sure you will continue to be receive well when the changes take place. Although, at times, I would have rather have the Manhattan Bridge to myself. That won't be happening unfortunately, since I would be filling in for late nite service on the Broadway Local line. But I'm use to it.. because I adjust quite well.
D 6th Avenue Express
After being the premiere line of the subway system, the MTA finally gives you the shaft! Now it joins the M/N/R as being one of the most outcasted lines in the system.. But don't feel so bad, the "M" will have the red carpet rolled out for you when you start running into Brooklyn again.
M Nassua Local
You are the most shafted line in the entire system. No one seems to know what to do with you. You are even disrespect amongst your colleagues (J/Z) although people cope with you, nonetheless. You have been given new meaning to service changes, but only the Q has succeeded you.
N Broadway Line
This would be me... You have stuck around in good times and bad. You are always considered second best, although you are very consistant. Also, you have dealt with service changes probably the best of all the lines in the entire subway system and would always be looked at as a line with great strengths.
R Broadway Line
You are the leader of Local service. You do not compromise a lot.. unlike your colleague the "N" line. You are about getting the job done, no matter how long it takes. Although you look forward to the changes, it is more likely you won't be welcoming the "D" line, because you are not familiar with it... And when you are not familiar with something, you turn a blind eye. How do I know this, because when the "M" first came aboard, you refused to share your track space with it. It took several months for the MTA to realize that you two would make a good team. However, you made sure it was on a limited basis.. which is why The "M" remains the only rush hour service in Brooklyn. Moreover, you kicked the "G" out.. and you manage to keep the "V" at a great distance.
W Broadway Line
You look forward to your new arraignment, because you were there at the worse of times. And I'm sure you would be there when trouble occurs in south brooklyn too. Since I look forward to the new changes so much, I will be changing my screen name in February to your line. Also, you hate competition.. and rather keep things balance.. which is why you and the "Q" are thicker than blood.
B 6th Avenue Express
You are looking forward to the changes, but you do not like change so much. You like competition, so you are excited to be paired with the "Q" line. This will give you the chance to show your true talents, but this depends on what cars the "Q" uses. If the "Q" uses the Slants, you can forget it! no chance.. (What I notice about the "Q" no matter what cars this line uses.. they just perform better.. especially the slants) The "D" knows this too well.. you just won't be able to match the speed to be a true express line.. But you won't miss the M/N/R lines.. because they just wasn't a match for you.
N Broadway Line
Q Bwy Express
The Q has mature over the years. After being the unforgotten child of the Brighton Line, it now becomes the Full time service. WOW! I'm sure you will continue to be receive well when the changes take place. Although, at times, I would have rather have the Manhattan Bridge to myself. That won't be happening unfortunately, since I would be filling in for late nite service on the Broadway Local line. But I'm use to it.. because I adjust quite well.
D 6th Avenue Express
After being the premiere line of the subway system, the MTA finally gives you the shaft! Now it joins the M/N/R as being one of the most outcasted lines in the system.. But don't feel so bad, the "M" will have the red carpet rolled out for you when you start running into Brooklyn again.
M Nassua Local
You are the most shafted line in the entire system. No one seems to know what to do with you. You are even disrespect amongst your colleagues (J/Z) although people cope with you, nonetheless. You have been given new meaning to service changes, but only the Q has succeeded you.
N Broadway Line
This would be me... You have stuck around in good times and bad. You are always considered second best, although you are very consistant. Also, you have dealt with service changes probably the best of all the lines in the entire subway system and would always be looked at as a line with great strengths.
R Broadway Line
You are the leader of Local service. You do not compromise a lot.. unlike your colleague the "N" line. You are about getting the job done, no matter how long it takes. Although you look forward to the changes, it is more likely you won't be welcoming the "D" line, because you are not familiar with it... And when you are not familiar with something, you turn a blind eye. How do I know this, because when the "M" first came aboard, you refused to share your track space with it. It took several months for the MTA to realize that you two would make a good team. However, you made sure it was on a limited basis.. which is why The "M" remains the only rush hour service in Brooklyn. Moreover, you kicked the "G" out.. and you manage to keep the "V" at a great distance.
W Broadway Line
You look forward to your new arraignment, because you were there at the worse of times. And I'm sure you would be there when trouble occurs in south brooklyn too. Since I look forward to the new changes so much, I will be changing my screen name in February to your line. Also, you hate competition.. and rather keep things balance.. which is why you and the "Q" are thicker than blood.
B 6th Avenue Express
You are looking forward to the changes, but you do not like change so much. You like competition, so you are excited to be paired with the "Q" line. This will give you the chance to show your true talents, but this depends on what cars the "Q" uses. If the "Q" uses the Slants, you can forget it! no chance.. (What I notice about the "Q" no matter what cars this line uses.. they just perform better.. especially the slants) The "D" knows this too well.. you just won't be able to match the speed to be a true express line.. But you won't miss the M/N/R lines.. because they just wasn't a match for you.
N Broadway Line
ENCORE!!!
To cole, just because you can't get to Target doesn't mean we have to petition to change the subway service to fit YOUR needs. The system is meant to cater to the needs of many, not to the needs of a few.
I've been using the V for about a week and I'm liking it. I actually get a place to sit down.
Well the B and D will be back pretty soon. But I've been seeing some pretty full V trains north of 34th too.
Nobody seems to ask current F train riders: how would you like it if the F went back to 53rd St and the V disappeared? I bet there would be some pretty enthusiastic votes for the V if someone took that survey.
And plus, what would go through the 63rd Street tunnel? The Q? Some Roosevelt Island residents would be pretty pissed at the fact they won't have any direct 6th Ave service.
(F) local - via 53rd St
express - via 63rd
People knew and remembered the F as an express line; the V could still terminate at 2nd Ave for now but be called the F local.
How bad would it be to extend a line up Seinway, then Astoria to the airport
OR--I've been thinking about this lately and I'm not sure if the track connections for it to happen all exist, but it seems to me like it would be more useful if, instead of having both of the CPW/6th Av trains run express and via bridge into Brooklyn and both of the QB/6th Av trains run local and via tunnel/to 2nd Av, it could allow fewer transfers for everyone--direct access from CPW to 14th st., 23rd st., and the LES, and a faster ride downtown for QB passengers. The parallel of both the B and V running weekdays only suggests that the scheduling may be workable, but again I'm not sure if the track switches exist or would possibly be too burdensome.
(sarcasm)
Open up the wall at Lex/63rd and run a shuttle from there to 57th.
Look for posters in the subway and a special brochure in stations soon.
SOON?..SOON? How much longer do I have to wait for that thing to come out..THAT MTA should start to get sleeves rollin. NOW!!!
I no!..I no!. Hold on my horsey. I want that thing NOW..NOW..NOW..NOWWW!
The party was great, we met some nice people, and my other friend and I had plenty to drink. The party began to break up around 1:00 AM, so we dicided to grab some greasy food and coffee at a local diner at 86th and Second Avenue, and then head down to the Grassroots Tavern in the East Village, possibly my favorite pub in NYC. We walked over to Lexington Avenue, and grabbed a downtown (6) train.
Since I was basically leading the pack, I decided we should head towards one of the rear cars of the train, and get off at Union Square so that I could show them the platform extenders in action. My friends were most impressed.
We then walked down to the Grassroots Tavern on St. Mark's Place, had a couple beers, and finaly left the bar around 3:30 AM after last call. I decided to show my friends the glorious ruin of the Chambers Street BMT station only a few stops south. So we grabbed a downtown (6) train at Astor Place. While on the train, I decided we would try riding through the City Hall loop, since I had never actually seen this fabled station before. At Brooklyn Bridge, a well-meaning passenger was getting off and told us we were already at the end of the line, but the doors closed before I could think of a way to explain to her why we were still on the train.
Finally, the train pulled out, and as my friends and I peered through the windows, we saw the old City Hall station. Very impressive, although for some reason it seemed much smaller than I was expecting. It's been years since I saw the first Ghostbusters movie, but for some reason I remember the station seeming much larger in the movie.
We soon found ourselves back at Brooklyn Bridge, so we got off the train and walked over to the adjacent Chambers Street BMT Station. What a place. We hung around a while and marvelled at the station, and we gathered around a large route map on the northbound platform and I pointed out some of the highlights of the system, while explaining the differences between the IRT, BMT, and IND divisions. While standing there, a couple (M) and (J) trains made stops at the station, and then a large yellow diesel-powered work train came into the station on the track next to us and stopped there for a bit. Being about 5 or 6 cars long, it appeared so be some sort of vacuum train, I assume to vacuum up the track bed. Is this correct? After a few minutes, the vacuum train went on its way.
Our return trip to the Upper East Side was uneventful. We made it back to the car, and I directed my sober friend as he took us over to the West Side via 86th Street through Central Park, down Broadway through Times Square to 42nd Street, and then west on 42nd to the Lincoln Tunnel and onto the NJ Turnpike. We finally made it back to Philly around 7:30 AM, and I spent most of today nursing a royal hangover.
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
Does the train appear anywhere here?
http://www.nycsubway.org/cars/workcars.html
(On a somewhat-related note, I saw the famous Garbage Train pass by the Astor Place station on the Lexington Avenue line when I was in NYC a couple weeks ago.)
One of my friends who was with me had a good suggestion: The holding tanks of the Vac-Track should be transparent like on a Dirt Devil, so that bystanders on station platforms can watch all the garbage and vermin being sucked up into the train.
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
I like your idea.
Happy Holidays, by the way.
Precisely my reaction when I first saw it a few years ago.
CG
I thought you were coming to NYC on Wednesday to ride the AirTrain, but I haven't heard from you in weeks. What gives? Please email me the details of your trip ASAP. Thanks.
But wasn't there some rumor that they wanted R142As from the 6 as well in order to divert high-seniority away from the 6? I remember reading a post here that made some mention of that...
How is a superway a highway?
Superway is the exact opposite of subway. The two are collectively intraways. Commuter railways are extraways, Amtrak is an interway, and something in the middle like PATH is a mesoway.
Anyway, it consists of small vehicles running around on rails - hence the "light rail" idea up my noggin. So what if it has gate fare control? Some places have used it on bus lines... ever heard of Curitiba, Brazil?
Well, how many subway trains are only two cars long?
Anyway, Airtrain trains are longer, and you said small VEHICLES, not trains. If 60' long and 10' wide makes it light rail, then much of the subway is light rail.
Can't say that I have!!
Frankly I consider what is now called "light rail" to be a truncated version of the now gone interurban railroads of the first half of the last century.
John
Most Light Rail posits the use of existing or posibly abandoned freight routes to bring suburban commuters to the central city, perhaps with some new street running where necessary, perhaps with some new ROW, and certaily ADA compatible.
Elias
I call it GTT: Glorified Trolley Transit.
Somehow I gather there is a typo there somewhere but I do get the gist. That is why they had to use a euphemism.
Yes it does. How would the cars stay on the rails?
Errrmmmm... the raised part on the inside of the "groove" is called a flange. Without a flange, there would be no "groove".
the flange itself is a safety guard if the wheel climbs up on the rail.
I don't know quite what you are referring to - do you mean the short lengths of fourth or fifth rail you find on sharp curves?
GRT, like PRT, is generally defined as a system where the routing of individual vehicles is determined by the destination preferences of the passengers. An on-demand system, in other words. The only true GRT system in the US at present is the Morgantown GRT. Airtrain is a completely different beast all together.
No. AirTrain (assuming you do mean the JFK version and not the Newark version) is a perfectly conventional rail system as far as the wheel-rail interface is concerned.
or a driver.
Yes. But I don't think that is a deciding factor. There are other systems without drivers that describe themselves as light rail (London's Dockland Light Railway for one) and there are subway systems without drivers that still describe themselves as subways.
In fact there is a category called ALRT (Automated/Advanced Light Rapid/Rail Transit) which AirTrain could fall into.
I think the question is, is it light. And my understanding that this is more to do with the construction and geometry of the track than the vehicles themselves. I have heard it said (on this board) that the Airtrain ROW is built to carry subway trains if necessary, which casts some doubt on how light it is.
It's rapid transit (technically GRT, group rapid transit to distinguish it from PRT, personal rapid transit, also driverless but strangers don't share trains).
I'm not sure on this one, but I always thought GRT involved much smaller vehicles which were dynamically routed by demand. Kind of like an automated transit version of the sort of shared taxis common in some (non-US) cities.
How about boondoggle.
As for trolley, that is a very specific term referring to vehicles that use overhead trolley wire. The TARS vehicles were “streetcars” excepting their Manhattan-Bronx vehicles.
Plus I think we all know what a monorail is.
Some geessees may not. they see a concrete ROW supported by a single row of slender concrete risers, they cannot see what is up there, and clearly it is not their great grandfather'e el.... so what is it.
duh... must be some sorta monorail or something.
Reminds me of some state legislators who wanted to get rid of billboards, well the outdoor advertising lobby suggested allowing only signs that would fit on a single pole.
Oops...
Elias
So first we waited at 96 St for like 20 minutes until a nb (1) train came. We saw two nb (2) trains, three sb (2) trains, and two sb (1) trains before our nb (1) train came. So after boarding, it left 96 St nb, got onto the middle track all the way to the outside part and then right before 137 St it crossed over to the sb track(!) to make the station stop at 137 St. Then it continued north, going back to the middle track for the run through the yard, then it went on a battery run. It got onto the local at 145, but didn't stop. The next stop was 168 St, where we got off.
at 168, we checked out the overpass and then got on the train "right behind ours" and then got off at 181 St. Then we took an elevator ride up to the upper place. The E/O was this guy who looked half dead, half mental, and half lonely. It was freaky.
So after we got out of the elevator at the top place, we walked around in fare control for 35 seconds, and then went back to the elevator. The elevator was still there, and the E/O didn't look too surprised that we cam right back on his elevator. He just sat there, with his head against the elevator wall, his mouth slightly open, and that same stupid look on his face.
So then we went down, down, down, down, not unlike miners going down to a coal mine. When we got to the bottom a sb (1) came so we ran like greased lightening and made the train and went home and lived happily ever after. The End.
WHat a beautiful story.
...for now
Bravo! ;-)
David
: ) Elias
I heard it'll be R-200's (B), R-358's (D), R-666's (N/W), and Boeing-built R-747's for the Q. To avoid mixing of fleets, each car class will become a distinct operating authority.
(1)How is the crewing arrangements worked - is it a double days pay with leave thrown in (for the few workers here in UK - e.g. security drivers for frost precautions in key depots (trains left cut in with heaters on etc) As nothing moves here in UK apart from a few urgent engineeing trains on Xmas day - these rely on well paid volunteer crews to come in.
(2) What are passenger loadings like - I know its variable - but anecdotal evidence from the front line would be very usefull.Very quiet late afternoon I guess - with no business places open.
It is the equivalent of a sunday in most places, with sunday schedules and pay.
Very quiet late afternoon I guess - with no business places open.
Plenty of business places remain open on Christmas. It's one of the things that makes America great, that there is no full closure holiday.
Quite true; I look upon "Christmas," in the holiday sense, as running from the evening of Christmas eve through the afternoon of Christmas day itself. Come to think of it, in that sense Christmas is similar to a Jewish sundown-to-sundown holiday.
I agree. In that sense all "eve" celebrations, where you do special things (traditional Christmas eve dinner, New Year's eve party, etc.) is from the sundown to sundown day.
Unless you were a skilled astronomer in the ancient world, how would you have figured out when midnight = new day was anyway? They didn't have flashlights to read the sundials in the dark then.
I agree with that totally. Christmas Eve is a much funner day than Christmas Day. That's the evening when I see my grandmother, my aunts and uncles, cousins, etc, and all the gift exchanging gets done and we all have dinner. Even though it is supposed to be a religious holiday, which it is, I think of it more as a "family" holiday. I don't think too many people are thinking of the religious part of Chrismas, except maybe for an hour or so if they even go to church. Christmas Eve is the fun day. Christmas Day itself is rather boring....just go to a movie.
To me, Christmas is anything but a holiday. It's the time of year that I'm busiest. This year it looks like I'll get to see my parents and my sister late on the 25th and the rest of my family the day after.
To get back on topic - the London Undergound used to run on Christmas Day at one time. I rode on the Piccadilly Line on Christmas Day 1968. I'm not sure when they stopped opening on Christmas Day, but they got very little custom when they did.
Easy - go to Wales.
and Christmas Eve is no particularly big deal except for those who go to midnight mass.
It's a real nightmare for the choir, who get dragged in for midnight AND Christmas morning.
To get back on topic - the London Undergound used to run on Christmas Day at one time. I rode on the Piccadilly Line on Christmas Day 1968. I'm not sure when they stopped opening on Christmas Day, but they got very little custom when they did.
Ironically, they'd probably get a hell of a lot more custom nowadays.
Funny you should mention a movie theater on Christmas. About 10 years ago when I was in the 111Pct (as a cop, I didn't make sergeant yet) in Bayside we had a job at the movie theater at the Douglaston Mall. (The mall with Sterns on the LIE by the CIP which looks like there's a mountain behind it) When we get there we find 2 girl employees, an usher and a popcorn stand girl, having a catfight and both were injured. They both wanted to press charges. Being Christmas we talked them out of pressing charges saying if we arrest one we have to arrest the other and you certainly don't want to spend Xmas at central booking. They agreed and no arrest was made.
Believe it or not later that day the mother of one of the girls was at the precinct and made a civilian complaint against me for not arresting the other girl. And when the sgt. explained to her that her daughter would have spent Xmas in jail she said it would have been worth it just to have the other girl arrested.
So much for trying to be nice on Christmas!!!
Christmas probably is less of a big deal in NYC than in other places in the United States, what with the city's large Jewish and Asian populations.
And Christmas is celebrated in non-Christian countries, such as Japan.
See the United States Code, Title 4, chapter 1, section 6, paragraph d:
The flag should be displayed on all days, especially on New Year's Day, January 1; Inauguration Day, January 20; Martin Luther King Jr.'s birthday, third Monday in January; Lincoln's Birthday, February 12; Washington's Birthday, third Monday in February; Easter Sunday (variable); Mother's Day, second Sunday in May; Armed Forces Day, third Saturday in May; Memorial Day (half-staff until noon), the last Monday in May; Flag Day, June 14; Independence Day, July 4; Labor Day, first Monday in September; Constitution Day, September 17; Columbus Day, second Monday in October; Navy Day, October 27; Veterans Day, November 11; Thanksgiving Day, fourth Thursday in November; Christmas Day, December 25; and such other days as may be proclaimed by the President of the United States; the birthdays of States (date of admission); and on State holidays.
Also Easter Sunday and New Year's Day.
What the bleep is wrong with New Year's Day?
It should be a day off, but it should not be listed in the Flag Act.
For no better reason than for everyone to gorge themselves and get very very drunk.
Or be like a true Scot and party all though Jan 1 too. But then again the Scots actually get Jan 2 off too.
I personally like the New Year's day off thing. It means I can sit around drinking tea, eating stollen and watching the live broadcast of the Vienna New Year Concert.
One day I will take my Austrian-born father back to Vienna, and we will sit in the Opera Haus and listen to the concert in person.
:-D Wow! If he's anything like me he will be pleased!!!
It was, and January 1st is a Holy Day of Obligation (chuch attendance is required) in the Catholic Church, the Solemnity of Mary. The bris is even mentioned in the readings that day.
In addition to Sunday, the days to be observed as holy days of obligation in the Latin Rite dioceses of the United States of America, in conformity with canon 1246, are as follows:
January 1, the solemnity of Mary, Mother of God;
Thursday of the Sixth Week of Easter, the solemnity of the Ascension;
August 15, the solemnity of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary;
November 1, the solemnity of All Saints;
December 8, the solemnity of the Immaculate Conception;
December 25, the solemnity of the Nativity of Our Lord Jesus Christ.
Actually, All Saints Day is also a holy day of obligation, the day after Halloween, as someone else mentioned. I am Catholic, but did forget what January 1st is really for. I know it's not just because of Jesus' Bris, because circumcision isn't even required in the Catholic Church. And even when I went to Catholic school, I always found it interesting that the Immaculate Conception was on Decemeber 8th, but the birth was on Dec 25...further proof that someone played with the dates.
I've always been curious about that, too. Why 17 days before the birth in particular? It must have had some special meaning other than picking it out of a hat.
Because it's when Mary's conception is celebrated.
Christ's conception is called the Annunciation of the BVM, as it's when the angel announced to Mary that she was pregnant. It is (unsurprisingly) on March 25th.
So as not to take up too many posts with OT religious stuff, January 1st is (amongst other things) about the naming of Jesus, so you get all the Holy Name stuff brought into it. I'm surprised the Epiphany's not a holyday of obligation in the US.
IINM, they're even different between England & Wales and Scotland.
I think we better end this though this is getting WAY of topic.
I reckon some kinda rail pilgrimage is in order... there, back on topic.
Then the "8th day" reason IS not a coincidence. See, this is all coming back, I just needed a little refresher course.
In some countries, March 21 on the secular calendar is still the first day of the year.
Not a coincidence at all.
The only biblical evidence is that Jesus was born in the Spring. What evidence has been used to claim a December date?
In a solar calendar system, months are arbitrary. There's no internal reason that January 1 had to be the beginning of a month.
And it's awkward to have the year start in the middle of a month, that's why it was changed.
Nonetheless, surely you agree that a major holiday is celebrated based on that (false) premise.
A calendar system was based on that same false premise. Why do you find that so difficult to accept?
And as I've been trying to point out, most Christians refused to celebrate Christmas in any fashion in recognition of its origins as a pagan Holiday. Some Christian groups still refuse to celebrate it. Jehovah's Witnesses recognize only the time of Easter because of Jesus' instruction to remember Him at the Last Supper, which was a Passover seder:
And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
--Luke 22:19
The fact of this being a Passover Seder appears recognized in the fact that celebrations surrounding Easter are timed according to a complex calculation which allows Easter to more closely align with Passover, but without using the Jewish calendar.
As compared to saying Christmas is December 25? Easter is figured in an attempt to recreate a lunar calendar without using the Jewish one for the so called "moveable feasts."
Passover is always on 15 Nisan.
http://www.smart.net/~mmontes/ec-cal.html
www.forgotten-ny.com
So do I, but the calendar predates the birth of Jesus, regardless of what time of year it was. The Gregorian calendar is a minor modification, removing a day every 100 years.
Nonetheless, surely you agree that a major holiday is celebrated based on that (false) premise.
Yes, but what does that have to do with January 1? December 25 was not chosen because it was the eighth day prior to January 1, it was chosen because it was the date of the Feast of Saturnalia.
A calendar system was based on that same false premise. Why do you find that so difficult to accept?
Because the calendar system was not based on that false premise. January 1 may not have been the original start of the year, but it was the start of a month before the birth of Jesus of Nazareth.
Well, it is true, but although this thread is off topic, everyone has been very civil. I see no disrespect, hostility, or intolerance here in this thread. Actually some of my disagreement here in this thread has been with David, and he is one of my favorite subtalkers. I can like David, and still disagree with some of his views at the same time. And in many cases, many of us that are on opposite sides of some subjects but are still friends. All of us can disagree, but can still like each other. It wouldn't be fun if all of us agreed on everything all the time now would it, transit or otherwise. There wouldn't be much to talk about:
"I like the AirTrain, and it is a great service."
"I agree"
"I agree too."
"IAWTP".
Pretty boring after a while.
I don't know where it is mentioned, and don't feel like looking for it, but it is mentioned in the Bible that circumcision is not necessary (of course the Christian version, which includes the Old Testament and the New Testament). This was done very early on in Biblical times, long before the 16th century when the calandar was established. It's not like they just decided one day that circumcision was no longer necessary. It has biblical reference, unlike many modern issues, such as birth control, etc.
Nowadays I think we would call it "spin."
It is always in the week Nov 27 - Dec 3 though.
The point is that although Jan 1st is a holy day in the Catholic Church , it has nothing to do with Jesus' Bris
Yes it does. It is nowadays called either the Circumcision of Jesus or the Naming of Jesus (depending on the church). It is sometimes still referred to by the rather sidetracked name of the Purification of the BVM.
or the beginning of the secular calendar which was adopted only in the 16th century
Agreed, though I bet Pope Gregory was smiling at the coincidence.
I believe the Anteater-to-German Helmet Conversion for Muslim boys occurs when they are small children rather than teenagers. In any event, the Jewish method, of making the Unkindest Cut of All on infants, is in a way more merciful. Imagine getting clipped when you're old enough to know what's going on? Ouch!
Acts of the Apostles 15:1-21
1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, [and said], Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
3 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.
4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and [of] the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.
5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command [them] to keep the law of Moses.
6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men [and] brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as [he did] unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men [and] brethren, hearken unto me:
14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and [from] fornication, and [from] things strangled, and [from] blood.
21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
Interestingly, it looks like keeping kosher was abandoned after circumcision!
So like you guys chose the blue pill or something? And we chose the red pill?
Something like that! It's great when movies are relevant to OT threads!
Personally, I think there should have been a 3-track el with redbirds on the express piloted by BigEdIRTMan in the Matrix. There - back on topic!
It just proves that St. Paul was an Anglican/Episcopalian!!!
Yes it is . In Romans in the Bible it says it's a matter of a persons heart if they will be "saved" or not . I severely thought that if there is a God he will expell a good human being just because he DIDN't had a piece of his body cut off when he was a baby , which wasn't even his idea . Likewise , someone who has had the procedure done , but is a horrible person , will not be "saved" . That is basically more or less what the Bible states .
And finally , I would also assume that if a non-Jew is circumcised at birth , according to Jewish doctrine , he is automatically "saved" ?
I also doubt that . If there is a God , he couldn't have been so narrow minded that he would require amputation of a piece of the body (a valuable piece) to be removed to stay in good with him .
It's a national holiday no different than Martin Luther King day being a national holiday. It's just a bigger one than that, that's all. I think most of Christmas is secular anyway. Even for Christians it's not a "major" holiday. Sure it's a big day, but it's not nearly as important as a religious holiday as Easter is, or Good Friday, the holiest day of the year. The entire Christian faith is based on holy week at Easter. However, Easter is no big deal in a secular version like Christmas is. It's secular Christmas that's a big deal, not religious Christmas. It's not any more important than Chanukah is for Jewish people, which IINM, is also not a major holiday in a religious sense either.
Relative to the original question, on the LIRR you typically have a Holiday schedule. In terms of crewing, the rule on the LIRR is that, no matter what your seniority status, you can have Thanksgiving off, or Christmas off, but not both.
One year the LIRR ran a very restruicted Christmas schedule (more so than the usual holiday) but did not repeat that.
Always arranged if crews worked say Xmas Eve - then tney got New Years off (the wife works Boxing day as a midwife and gets New Years day off).Same principles.
Normal Sunday wages for Xmas Day seems a winner for the management.
So its a normal roster day - presume Sunday service levels ....any figures on patronage ? .
In UK it is a dead day - very dead pm - whole nation (of whatever belief) snores in front of the TV (zonked after a huge dinner) - usually showing at least once "The Great Escape" - and demolishing such delights as Terrys Chocolate Oranges or boxes of After Eight mints.
The streets and cities are deserted - Central London has maybe one or two coffee shops open and a few garages - thats it !
No Frobisher & Gleason Raspberry Flavoured Ice Lollies?
Off topic - but Xmas aint Xmas without a chocolate orange - aways acceptable and even purchasable in petrol stations as a panic buy on the day itself ....(along with overpriced and half dead flowers) ....
Other UK goodies
Salted peanuts and tangerines.
Foxs Glacier Mints
Turkish Delight
Meltis Berry Fruits
(imported) Cranberry sauce.
Roll on the 25th ...
'LONDON Spotted dick, the Victorian suet pudding whose name has provided sniggers for generations of schoolboys, is being renamed after an outbreak of prudishness.
'Housewives are said to have become so embarrassed at the prospect of asking for the dessert that Tesco is to call it Spotted Richard.
'After watching helplessly as sales figures dropped, the supermarket surveyed hundreds of female shoppers to discover the reason. They still loved the taste of spotted dick, they said, but found the name too saucy.
'In an age where incestuous kisses on TV's EastEnders barely elicit a flushed neck, it is perhaps refreshing that a double entendre can still produce excruciating titters. "Our research showed that people are actually embarrassed by the name," a Tesco spokesman said. "Can you imagine a lady going up to a male assistant and asking where she can find a spotted dick?"
'What about a nice big tart? "Tarts? No, we dont seem to have a problem with tarts," the spokesman added. "We noticed that all our traditional puddings were selling very well apple pies, crumbles but for some reason sales of spotted dick were dropping off. So we carried out some taste tests and they all said they loved it, it was just the name. We hope we will ease customer embarrassment and increase sales."
'Officials at the Pudding Club, which promotes traditional British desserts, were left choking on their custard creams. "We are absolutely outraged by this," said Simon Coombe, the club's chief taster. "Spotted dick has always been spotted dick and there is no reason to change that. I have no intention whatsoever of following this ridiculous example and will continue to use the name spotted dick."
'There is no clear answer as to how the pudding got its name. One school of thought is that the finished pudding looks like a spotty dog, and in the 19th century dogs were often called Dick. In Lobscouse and Spotted Dog, the cookery book based on the Jack Aubrey naval stories, it is suggested that "dick," "duff" and "dog" in names of puddings are variants of "dough." '
Are you sure that this article didnt appear one April 1st?
For those not in on the joke, Spotted Dick is a suet pudding with raisins.
Your explanation however does help people like me who google things before asking.
So I'm posting this only because I typed in the first sentence before deciding to look it up for myself, and there's no sense letting a good post go to waste. That and having read the definition I have to say: BRITISH PEOPLE HAVE NO BUSINESS MAKING FOOD!
Most definitely. If you don't believe the Times, it's also here in the Scotsman. Tesco weren't alone. Gloucestershire Hospitals NHS Trust also called it Spotted Richard for a time.
Gloucs Hosps changed it back after patients told them that they were being very silly. I don't know about Tesco, but it did feature in an episode of Have I Got News For You.
I dunno, but it seems that Britain is going the same way as America with the barmy Political Correctness.
I can't tell you how disturbed and disheartened I am by this revelation.
I wish you folks in the British Isles would appreciate how important it is that you maintain standards, as you are looked up to by we gun-toting, shoot-first-and-ask-quesions-maybe cowboys on this side of The Pond.
We expect people in Britain to wrap fish and chips in the popular press.
We expect you to say "heah-heah" early and often in Commons.
We expect you to always have Ham Buttys available in the "Buffy" Car.
We expect that the Minister of Silly Walks will always report to the Home Secretary.
And let me tell you, we in the colonies know our Dicks. We have Dick Nixon and Dick Cheney, just for a starter. And we can not abide the prospect of Spotted Dick being something else.
I hope you realize how important this is that you uphold Western Civilization. If you don't we shall have to face the prospect of looking up, not to the British Lion, but to the Cheese Eating Surrender Monkies on the Continent.
As the line in the flim, "Trainspotting" goes with respect to Scots, but equally true here - "The English are a nation of wankers. So what does that make *US*, eh? We were COLONISED by wankers!" :)
Pity there was no Central, District, or National Rail service to get anywhere near them...
Martin Luther King Day is a commemoration of the life of an important figure in American history. What important figure or event in American history does Christmas commemorate?
I realize a lot of people find this hard to believe, but to all but the most assimilated of Jews (and I assume the same goes for other non-Christian religions), Christmas is nothing. There are no family gatherings, there are no trees, there are no gifts. (For better or for worse, many Jews have adopted the custom of giving gifts, but they've transplanted that custom to Chanukah.) Christmas is just an annoyance, when many useful businesses are closed and when the subway doesn't run as frequently as usual.
Perhaps it's not a major holiday for Christians, but it's not even a minor holiday for non-Christians.
Fine. Many people have off for Yom Kippur. Many people have off for Rosh Hashanah Who cares if people get an extra day off.
I don't think any Jewish (as well as Christian) person in many businesses find Christmas annoying. Christmas has a major impact on the American economy no matter what religion or non-religion someone is. Many businesses define how well they did or didn't do by how "the holiday" season goes. I'm sure they don't think Christmas is "nothing". Christmas is big business, like it or not. I'm sure most Jewish or non religious businesses are only too happy to hang "Santa Claus" up in their window. I fail to see what's the big deal. Most of the Christmas you see has absolutely nothing to do with "religious" Christmas. What do flying reindeer have to do with religion? What does a Christmas tree mean to religion? Nothing. What does gift giving have to do with religion? While yes, it's based on a religious beginning, the Christmas we know today was started by American businesses. It's not even as big as it is here in Europe.
As for the subway not running as usual. Again, who cares. Should they run a normal weekday schedule when more than half the normal riders are not going to use it, as well as many of the workers not wanting to come in to work? Would you be willing to work on Rosh Hashanah? I understand your point, but what's the big deal? Fine Christmas means nothing to many people, but it does to many people. Passover means something to you, but many people couldn't care less. That's life, everyone has different customs.
The typical observant Jew (especially outside the NYC area) has to explain to his employer (or professors) seven times each year (except when they conveniently fall on weekends) that he must miss work (or school) for two days, since his religion prohibits his working for 49 hours. By the fourth such holiday in a month, many employers grow suspicious. Believe me, it's an awkward request to have to make, and it often results in the loss of vacation days. It's an experience that few Christians have ever had.
And then somebody else's holiday rolls along, and he's told that he can't come in to work, not even to recover a vacation day.
See the problem?
I don't have a problem with a business closing on Christmas because most of its employees would be taking off then anyway, or because it anticipates seeing few customers. I don't have a problem with a transit agency reducing service on Christmas because ridership tends to be low on Christmas. I do, OTOH, have a major problem with special governmental treatment of Christmas simply because it's Christmas.
None of the other legal holidays sanctioned by Congress have religious origins, they all commemorate historical events, or great Americans.
Sorry, but Jesus of Nazareth may be important to many people, but he is not a great American.
Christmas and Hanukkah are in some ways comparable, in that they could be characterized as cultural holidays associated with particular religions. Christmas is not the birthday of Jesus, as recognized at least by many Christian groups and discussed at length by, inter alia, Jehovah's Witnesses.
Likewise, Hanukkah is not a religious day of obligation for Jews as, for example, Rosh Hashanah or Yom Kippur.
The "Christmas" tree is an appropriated Teutonic symbol (Tanenbaum) and is clearly looked down upon by the Judeo-Christian bible:
"Hear ye the word which the Lord speaketh unto you, o house of Israel. Thus saith the Lord, learn not the ways of the heathen and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the ax. They deck it with silver and with gold: they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not. They are "upright" as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.
--Jeremiah 10:1-5
All that being said, enjoy our festivals. If Christmas brings you closer to Jesus in your heart or impels you toward reaching out to your fellow man, this is surely good, whether or not it is truly a religious holiday.
Dunno ... Easter's sort of becoming a festival of Spring, not necessarily religious.
Personally, I prefer goose.
then sit in front of the telly and watch reruns of Morecombe & Wise, and Only Fools and Horses. (Not forgetting Besss little homily)
Yawn!!! Nope, I'll be waatching DVDs and posting on Subtalk...
In a city none of whose residents celebrate Christmas, the DMV and post office will still be closed a week from today. That's my objection.
(Oh, I suppose I have another objection: sidewalks overcrowded because of tree-induced narrowing. That's public property; does the city ticket permitless Christmas tree vendors much as the city tickets other permitless vendors the rest of the year? I hope so. And I hope the city doesn't actually grant permits specifically for the time of the year that snow often produces difficult walking conditions.)
I think you must have phrased that wrong, or I am reading it wrong.
For an example closer to home, will the library and post office in the Village of Kiryas Joel be open this coming Thursday?
There's no reason that the Kiryas Joel post office has to be open the same days as your local post office. It might as well be closed on the eleven major Jewish holidays, and there's no reason for it not to be open this Thursday.
So there's no reason that any given post office must be closed on Christmas (or any other day of the year).
I saw a show on those Christmas tree guys on the Metro channel once. They are mostly from Canada, and many basically "live" where they sell the trees for the season. The city does give out permits for them (and does ticket non-permit holders if they come across them). As for the city granting permits at the time of year when it may snow, yes they do; I don't think many people would be buying cut down pine trees in July.
Don't forget the Festivus FEATS OF STRENGTH!
FESTIVUS ISN'T OVER UNTIL YOU PIN ME!
It's already been tried, to widespread derision. Do a Google search for "winterval".
Errrmmmm... no it wasn't JUST Christmas, to be fair to the poor deluded Birmingham City Council.
"Birmingham City Council used the phrase to describe its programme of festive family events over Christmas and the New Year."
BBC, Nov 9th 1998.
This programme of festive faily events was stretched out over 42 days, so you could say that BCC had a point. They went so far as admitting that "Christmas was at the heart of Winterval".
I'm all in favour of it!!!
"Come butler, come fill us a bowl of the best
Then we hope that your soul in heaven may rest
But if you do draw us a bowl of the small
Then down shall go butler, bowl and all!"
But for many Jews, Christmas raises the "December problem," the pull of deciding how to tell children that they can't celebrate what is the most important cultural holiday in the U.S. and otehr countries as well. Think how badly many children take it when they learn (all objective evidence notwithstanding) that Santa isn't a real person. Now imagine telling your kids they don't get Santa at all, or a tree, or the festive things they see all around them.
I disagree with you on one point, as far as I have been able to tell, Christmas was never more of a religious than a family and gift-giving holiday. Until the 19th century, many Christian groups forbade the celebration of Christmas, for the essentially secular holiday it is. Perhaps some Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox tradition may be different, but I'm not familiar with those.
Because his religion requires that no such activity be done on the Sabbath. The other religion allows activity on their Sabbath.
I still think Christmas is a secular holiday at this point for the most part.
It's not a secular holiday, it's a pagan religious holiday, many of the customs come from pagan celebrations. A religious holiday does not become secular any more than a secular holiday becomes religious.
It's not a secular holiday, it's a pagan religious holiday, many of the customs come from pagan celebrations. A religious holiday does not become secular any more than a secular holiday becomes religious.
I disagree pretty much all around. Christmas is an appropriation of the mid-winter pre-Christian celebrations, but that doesn't make it a pagan religious holiday in itself. Christmas for most Christians has a religious dimension simply because people believe it has. Religion is based on faith, not materialism (in the philosophic sense), so if people believe a holiday is religious for them, it is.
My point is that I don't believe there was actually a time that Christmas was more a religious holiday than a cultural one for the general population.
The Christmas tree is not an appropriate Christian symbol, according to the bible, but I don't know of any Christians who actually worship the tree, as an animist would.
Religious holidays do become secular by usage. Halloween was an important holiday for some pagan groups, but in my memory was completely secular in the United States. Now some latter-day "Wiccans" want to invest it with religious meaning again.
That doesn't make it any less of an annoyance that, e.g., government offices are, as a rule (rather than as a practical necessity in some or even most cases), closed on a religious holiday. I would never expect any government office in the U.S. to be closed on, e.g., Yom Kippur, unless it was forced to close due to lack of available staffing.
Next week, millions of observant Jews in the workforce will be forced to take off the day on Thursday for somebody else's holiday, but will have to rush out early the next day to prepare for one of the earliest Shabbosim of the year. This is the case even if most employees would prefer to work Thursday and have a long weekend.
When I was a kid there was a bakery on Church Avenue in Brooklyn ("Tell's") and I guess the owners were Jewish though it wasn't a Kosher bakery. Anyway, one year I was hanging out near the bakery when an annoyed man rattled the locked door. He asked me "Why is the bakery closed?" I said, "it's Yom Kippur, a Jewish holiday." He said "Because the JEWS have to have a holiday, I can't buy a loaf of bread," and stamped off.
That image always stuck with me. Moral: People's celebrations (or solemn observances) are always convenient, but at least tolerating them and maybe even wishing them well is why we live in America.
Of course a Christian-owned or -staffed business will be closed when Christians are unable to work. And of course I wish those Christians well on their holidays.
But what does that have to do with government agencies where staffing is not an issue, or with private companies whose would employees prefer to have a long weekend than a Thursday off?
It's the official status of Christmas in the U.S. that I find objectionable, not Christmas itself. If Yom Kippur had the same official status, I'd be equally offended. I was embarrassed when the question of alternate side on Purim came up a few years ago; there's no Jewish law against driving on Purim (as long as one isn't intoxicated), so why should alternate side be suspended?
But what does that have to do with government agencies where staffing is not an issue, or with private companies whose would employees prefer to have a long weekend than a Thursday off?
If they close government agencies in one place, they have to do it all over. And outside of New York it is even harder to find areas that are majority Jewish or non-Christian. Of course there are exceptions, but again, if they do it in one area, they have to do it across the board.
As for your long weekend, I can almost gaurantee, that many people DO have a long weekend this weekend, with many businesses (non-retail) closing Friday too. I know I have off Thursday and Friday, and many people I know do. You'll just have to wait until next year to get "the long weekend" when Christmas falls on Friday....uh oh, it's leap year next year, you;ll have to wait until Christmas falls on Monday : )
Ash Wednesday is a stupid parking holiday. They should make Fat Tuesday a parking holiday to make up for it.
I agree. I'm not going to stand in the way of anybody else's alternate side holiday, as silly as it may seem to me, but I don't want to ask for accomodations I don't need. If alternate side isn't suspended on Shavuos, observant Jews around the city get parking tickets and nasty notes on their windows. If alternate side isn't suspended on Purim, observant Jews around the city move their cars. We (Jews) should save our requests for when we actually need them.
If they close government agencies in one place, they have to do it all over.
Why is that? Many government functions are run at the local level.
As for your long weekend, I can almost gaurantee, that many people DO have a long weekend this weekend, with many businesses (non-retail) closing Friday too. I know I have off Thursday and Friday, and many people I know do.
But many businesses only grant one (week)day off this week. I guarantee that in over 99% of those cases, that day is Thursday, not Friday, and that the employees were never actually asked which day they'd prefer to have off. After all, with the exception of movie theaters and restaurants, keeping your business open on Christmas is downright unpatriotic!
Best of the holdidays to you and yours as well, CC! :)
Maybe I'm still living in the Cold War mentality, but don't weathermen have to work on Christmas, to make sure that's Santa coming over the North Pole, and not an ICBM?
Then again, I volunteer to work Christmas, so that those who observe the holiday can have it off with their families.
Good for you. Maintaining the same tradition I saw in the Army.
You want me to fill in for you?
My wife's company, on the other hand, has given them a half-day on Wednesday, Thursday and Friday off, and the entire week following - all paid.
I think any observant (or even not-so-observant) Jew would kill for something like that around Passover!
And it would still be wrong.
Government offices are closed on Columbus Day even if you're not Italian or Spanish.
Government offices are closed on Martin Luther King day even if you're not African-American.
Government offices are closed on Labor Day even if you're a small businessman.
Government offices are closed on Veterans Day even if you're a draft dodger.
When I was in the Army (during Vietnam), Jewish personnel used to volunteer the work the holidays so more Christians could go home to see their families. The expression of love was not unnoted.
Christmas is more important culturally to the great majority of Americans than most other holidays. Deal with it.
No, I'm not.
A lousy loaf of bread was cause enough to direct hatred toward Jews because he was inconvenienced. I'm sure if he were pinned down on the issue he would say "I love Jews. Some of my best friends are Jews. But I'm Not Jewish, so why should I be inconvenienced."
Are you suggesting that Jews should give up their holidays and accept the religious holidays of their neighbors in their stead? To be sure, that's the attitude that some Jews have taken. Their grandchildren do not share that attitude -- their grandchildren have either fallen entirely out of Judaism or have reaccepted the celebrations that their grandparents rejected.
It's not an attitude that I'm willing to take. It wouldn't be fair to my grandchildren.
Jews are currently in the middle of a holiday that celebrates the triumph of traditionalists over assimilationists. This is perhaps not the best time for your assimilationist message.
My bakery is closed on Yom Kippur and on the other ten days of the year when my religion prohibits work, plus every Sabbath. If I can find the staffing and I expect customers, my bakery is open on December 25, just as it's open on December 24 and December 26. This is nonnegotiable. The gentleman in your story is welcome to find his bread elsewhere.
Government offices are closed on Columbus Day even if you're not Italian or Spanish.
Columbus Day commemorates an important figure in the history of the United States.
Government offices are closed on Martin Luther King day even if you're not African-American.
Martin Luther King Day commemorates an important figure in the history of the United States.
Government offices are closed on Labor Day even if you're a small businessman.
Labor Day honors a group of Americans.
Government offices are closed on Veterans Day even if you're a draft dodger.
Veterans Day honors another group of Americans.
When I was in the Army (during Vietnam), Jewish personnel used to volunteer the work the holidays so more Christians could go home to see their families. The expression of love was not unnoted.
Are you sure it was an expression of love? To those who don't celebrate Christmas, working on Christmas isn't an imposition. If, by working on Christmas, those Jewish personnel enabled Christians to celebrate their holiday, that's great, but Jews have no reason to refrain from working on Christmas to begin with.
Christmas is more important culturally to the great majority of Americans than most other holidays.
Good for them, and I hope they enjoy it.
Yom Kippur is more important culturally to me than most other holidays, yet all I ask is for the basic accomodations I need to observe it. Formal recognition is unnecessary and IMO undesireable.
Deal with it.
I'm dealing with it quite fine, although you seem to have trouble accepting the holidays of others. My only objection is the elevation to the formal status of 'national holiday' that one particular religious holiday has received in the United States. In case it's not clear from my comments, my objections would be no weaker if the holiday were one of my own.
Columbus Day commemorates an important figure in the history of the United States.
The first European to find the Bahamas is an important figure in US history? I don't buy into this one, and I'm Italian.
There are only two U.S. holidays honoring individuals, Martin Luther King and Columbus. Not to hurt anyone's sensibilities of the decency or importance of these individuals, there is no holiday for Lincoln, Jefferson, Adams, Franklin, either Roosevelt, and on and on...; and I don't advocate that such holidays be established. We should not secularly deify individuals above others.
Martin Luther King day could become Freedom Day, honoring both man and concept, while Columbus Day could become Discoverers Day.
Are you suggesting that Jews should give up their holidays and accept the religious holidays of their neighbors in their stead? To be sure, that's the attitude that some Jews have taken. Their grandchildren do not share that attitude -- their grandchildren have either fallen entirely out of Judaism or have reaccepted the celebrations that their grandparents rejected.
This is the heart of why I say you're not getting it.
I'm suggesting quite the opposite. What stuck with me from that incident was that the man expressed anger at Jews because he couldn't buy a loaf of bread because of Jews' observance of a tradition not his own. How you could assume I was saying the bakery should have been open is beyond me.
Now you are being intolerent of an important tradition that happens to be observed by the great majority of Americans.
When I was in the Army (during Vietnam), Jewish personnel used to volunteer the work the holidays so more Christians could go home to see their families. The expression of love was not unnoted.
Are you sure it was an expression of love?
Yes.
I'm intolerant of the officialization of the tradition at the national level. I do not participate in the tradition myself, but (as I've said again and again) I hope that those who do have an enjoyable and meaningful holiday.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes it is. Everyone likes a day off. The Jewish servicemen were not required to sacrifice their day off, they did because they were altrustic and felt that the day off would be more valuable to someone else.
Not so. Those who work on Christmas are either getting paid, either in cash or in other days off. A day off is always welcome, but a Jew might prefer his on, say, Yom Kippur. That's common sense, not love.
From the context, it was implied that the Jews were entitled to taking Christmas off. No mention was made of whether that option would be available at any other time.
You have to understand the nature of Army leave for Holidays. Jewish personnel were more-or-less entitled to take Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur as leave days or at least as on-post non-work days, because the military understood the nature of a religious holiday of obligation. The Army couldn't require it, but it was expected that Jews would be attending chapel on those days. As with everything else military, it was subject to exigent circumstances. After all, the Israeli military didn't wait for sundown to fight the Yom Kippur war.
Now let's talk about Christmas. The Army tried to let as many people off for Christmas as possible, because it is so important to Christmas celebrants. In non-combat situations, the Army runs on light staffing for the last two weeks of December. But not nearly all Christians can get off for Christmas, or there wouldn't be any Army, in effect. Also, if you are on the duty roster over Christmas (KP, CQ, etc.) someone has to cover for you. So Jews made it a point to volunteer to work and to take those duties so more Christians could go home.
The point I'm trying to make is that it wasn't quid pro quo. Noone said, "I'll take your KP on December 23 if you take my KP on Saturday." Jews of good will covered for Christians and Christians of good will covered for Jews.
And why on earth would anyone take off for the first day of Chanukah? There are eleven days each year (plus Sabbaths) when observant Jews have to worry about getting time off from work, and Chanukah is not among them.
Does the NYC Department of Education count as a 'government office'?, he asks, knowing that somebody will take it the wrong way. After all, they are closed for Yom Kippur (at least, whenever it falls on a weekday).
I'd be surprised to learn of a single public school in the U.S. that holds class on Christmas, even in an area with few Christians.
When I was in NYC public schools in the '50s and '60s, the Jewish population of both students and teachers was higher than now, but the schools were never closed on Rosh Hashana or Yom Kippur.
Or perhaps more Jews in the 50's were willing to attend school on Yom Kippur today. In the 50's, Orthodox Judaism had been declared dead; today, it's thriving.
Perhaps that's also the reason they closed the schools, workplaces, offices, etc on Christmas, as the majority of people would not show up.
Have you ever seen a sign like this? "The store is closed today because many of our employees are celebrating a religious holiday. We apologize for the inconvenience and hope to see you tomorrow." Of course not. It's a given that the store is closed on Christmas. Doesn't matter if the employees would be glad to work and the shoppers would be glad to shop -- it's Christmas.
It's also an unnecessary sign because I think it's safe to say that 99.9% of the people who use that store know that Dec 25th is Christmas, no matter what religion they practice, if any. The same can't be said of let's say Yom Kippur, where sign like that may be necessary, because most of the country (especially outside NY) is not even aware of when Yom Kippur even is, aside from the people who celebrate it, or may have off because of it.
To give an example of a religious (Christian), non-secular holiday like Easter, a sign like that may be necessary, as unlike Christmas, Easter is not generally celebrated in a secular way, so people may not know why it would be closed.
The Christmas that is practiced in America is not the same Christmas that is celebrated around the world. Again, yes it is based on religion, but has evolved into a secular holiday. I think it's also safe to say that although there are many people celebrating it religiously, the majority of Americans celebrating Christmas are not celebrating it in a religious way.
In the past, bureaucracies were not so sensitive to the issues of minorities.
Or perhaps more Jews in the 50's were willing to attend school on Yom Kippur today.
Jews did not attend school on the High Holy Days in the '50s. The schools remained open for other students.
In the 50's, Orthodox Judaism had been declared dead; today, it's thriving.
Nonsense. Typical Jews in New York (and even more so in other parts of the nation) were more observant than the average today--what there wasn't was such a large community of ultra-Orthodox, except for Hassidim. True, you rarely saw a yarmulke on a Jew. But it was also common for Jews to observe Kashruth and not ride on Shabbos without having having to conciously set themselves from the broader communities.
What is thriving today that was little present in the '60s is an Orthodoxy that adopts a more old-European style of observance. I imagine this is partly because of the destruction of Jewish communities in much of the world, especially Europe, and the greatly increased ethnic consciousness in the U.S.
Source? This goes against everything I've heard and read on the topic.
You can't learn everything from books. You didn't have a large community of extremely observant Jews, but what you might call secular Jews, even Reform, were more apt to maintain certain issues of observance, including Kashruth, attending shul, and marrying in the faith.
The fact that they were less likely (at the least those who where native born and under 40) to wear a covering on their heads didn't mean they didn't keep the religion in their hearts.
Certainly, I agree that, in the 50's, those Jews who didn't strictly observe the holidays were more likely to celebrate them in a quasi-traditional fashion than now.
But at the same time, there were far fewer who did strictly observe the holidays. There are many more American Jews today than in the 50's who will not, except for matters of life and death, write a single word on either day of Rosh Hashanah, on Yom Kippur, on the first two days of Sukkot, on Shmini Atzeret and Simchat Torah, on the first two and last two days of Pesach, and on the two days of Shavuot.
The quasi-traditionalists would take the day off on Rosh Hashanah if they could, of course. But if they had an important exam in the afternoon, they'd likely take it. That isn't even an option for the strictly observant.
I've seen conflicts over questions of exam scheduling of this sort. They're often not pretty, even nowadays, with laws in many states requiring schools to offer makeup arrangements. It's no wonder that some schools and school systems with large numbers of observant Jews have chosen to sidestep the issue by cancelling school on those days that generate the most absences.
I think that depends on what you think of a "traditional." I don't think it's fair to say that Jews in New York in the '50s were not traditional, with the implication that there was a defect in their observance.
I think the seminal events in the huge increase of an older (and more traditionally European than American) and stricter observance by American Jews today were not Jewish events at all. One was the "60s," during which there was heightened interest in observances, religion, and traditions not in the mainstream of the times. The second was Alex Haley's Roots, which had the secondary effect of raising the consciousness of ethnic, national and religious groups, and displacing the "melting pot" as a key cultural assumption.
It seems to me (and you are closer to this than I) that Jews today are more made to choose either a distinctly assimiliationist or very strict model, rather than the more comfortable middle ground of mid-Century. Do you think this is true? If so, do you think it's a good thing?
I agree. I didn't say that they weren't traditional, and I certainly didn't intend any implication of judgment.
I somewhat reluctantly used the term 'quasi-traditional' to refer to those who maintain some sort of genuine but incomplete traditional observance of the holidays. (If you have a better term, send it my way.) In many cases, these people grew up fully traditional but were pressured to relax the tradition in 50's America. (I wouldn't dare declare these people defective in any way. For one thing, I haven't been in their shoes.)
I think the seminal events in the huge increase of an older (and more traditionally European than American) and stricter observance by American Jews today were not Jewish events at all. One was the "60s," during which there was heightened interest in observances, religion, and traditions not in the mainstream of the times. The second was Alex Haley's Roots, which had the secondary effect of raising the consciousness of ethnic, national and religious groups, and displacing the "melting pot" as a key cultural assumption.
Good observations, and I agree.
It seems to me (and you are closer to this than I) that Jews today are more made to choose either a distinctly assimiliationist or very strict model, rather than the more comfortable middle ground of mid-Century. Do you think this is true? If so, do you think it's a good thing?
I certainly do think it is true (as we speak, the Conservative movement is shifting in both directions, with most of its members sliding towards Reform and a handful sliding towards Orthodoxy). I can't say if it's a good thing -- in ways I think it's good and in ways I think it's very bad.
In which ways, if I might ask? I don't mean to force you to a long or detailed reply, but I'd be interested in what you have to say.
This is going to take more than a few minutes. Email me and I'll try to get around to it at some point soon.
Thank you for the interesting discussion, even if it took a while to reach that stage.
Huh? I never read Roots, and my family became more religious a few years ago.
I use the term "tribal" to delineate an open allegience to a group based mostly on ethnicity where it was previously considered more a private matter.
Lack of available staffing seems like the reason for the majority of the country for Christmas closings. Again, if they close government offices in one place, it must be across the board on Christmas, even if an all Muslim or Jewish city existed in the US.
The separation of Church and State in the US is a funny thing. Coming from a country with an established church, I have studied the contradictions with interest.
I think some history is necessary to put some context here. The Founding Fathers wanted separation of church and state, so that people would be free to practise their religion without fear of repression. However, from reading the contemporary documents, its clear that a) the Founding Fathers believed in God and b) that God was a Christian God. The idea was that the state wouldnt interfere in which brand of Christianity. Dont forget that, in their recent past, people had died, usually in horrible ways, for professing the wrong brand of Christianity.
I believe that other religions in the USA are 20th century phenomena, are as the agnostics and atheists. So by the time they arrived, national holidays for important Christian festivals were institutionalized. Parts of the country where significant proportions of other religions settled, especially New York City, have worked out their own accommodations.
Some ironies:
Good Friday is a New York Stock Exchange holiday, not because of any religious connotations, but because of the crash on that day.
Chief Justice Roy Moore of Alabama was required to remove a tablet with the Ten Commandments on it from the state judicial building, while the Commandments are on the wall of the federal Supreme Court.
A senior Christian Cleric and the Chief Rabbi participate in the Presidential transition ceremony, when the incoming President (so far) swears the Oath of Office on a bible, while schools in the South are prohibited from having a prayer before football matches.
Finally, I was born the day after Christmas, (Boxing Day if you come from the UK, St Stephens day) and resent all those years when I was screwed for presentsthis ones for your Christmas and your birthday. Drat!
?? Really? Good Friday is a different week every year. It could be in either March or April. Holy week is based on the lunar cycle. Wouldn't the stock exchange crash be associated with a date rather than a religious holiday?
On the other hand, there are some intelligent, witty, well-read, erudite brokers, but they are few and far between.
And then the market still doesn't go up.
On the other hand, its the busiest day of the year for retail banks and credit card companies in terms of the authorizations that they process: everyones out shopping!
Actually, the busiest shopping day of the year is not the day after Thanksgiving as often thought, but yesterday - the last Saturday before Christmas.
However, I could well believe yesterday was the busiest day, judging by the cash registers ringing in the stores I visited!
To the best of my knowledge, it is not a trading rule, but a US banking law - banks chartered in the US may not be closed for more than three consecutive days. This has its roots in the 1929 crash.
While stock market investors, as I've noted here before, are ignorant schmucks. I'll never forget the incident in early 2002 when there was an explosion and fire in an old building on (IIRC) West 19th Street caused by improperly stored chemicals. Talk about word spreading fast, within a few minutes of the late-morning explosion the Dow and other indices tanked over 10%, because investors feared the towel heads were on the warpath. Talk about ignorance, cowardice, and just plain disgraceful behavoir ...
Such as this one.
but I know a good anthem when I hear it!
I rather like the Oxbridgensian theory that a good anthem is a short one - that way, you get dinner earlier!
And of which Cathedral is he Dean?
Well I couldn't think of a better established Church than the Anglican/Episcopalian one - actually I could: get rid of "contemporary language"; and please would someone stop altering the Lord's prayer - everyone knows it should be "which art", "in earth" and "them that trespass".
I guess it comes back to an individual expectation of a service: the poetry of King James (at some work to understand the language) versus absolutely bland modern English.
What happened was that that text was so universally disliked that they decided to enforce slow creeping change instead, giving a text that was nearly what everyone was used to.
Thank gox everyone uses BCP for evensong - the modern one is truly awful - you should see the hash it makes of the Magnificat!
IOW, we don't want to have a Becket situation, where an establishment church (or any church) competes with the secular government,or where the government can rule that one or another religion has state blessing.
The ironies you cite spring from a different source. The U.S. is a not a Christian country, not even if everyone in it were Christian--rather it is a secular nation founded for the most part by Christians and whose legal and cultural conditions are overwhelmingly from nations and traditions that are Judeo-Christian in origin.
The oaths on the Bible, the blessings in Congress, the Commandments at the Supreme Court are not obeisance to God, as they might be in a country with a State Relgion. This is not to say that Americans are not religious, but that the U.S.is a republic, where power is derived from the populace, not from a King, who traditionally claims power from God.
Since Congress has a chaplain, and there are prayers before sessions, how does separation work in this case?
Not that it concerns me, since I am still a British citizen in the US on a green card, but I still think these are inconsisencies. Such in the case of official recognition of homosexual relationships, which has the religious right with their knickers in a twist about violating the sanctity of marriage. I would say that separation of church and state would mean that all unions, of whatever sort, were just civil unions, a sort of contract that took care of property/inheritance/medical decision rights, and everything else was a matter for the individuals concerned and their church(es) if applicable. cf: France, where there are separate civil and church marriage ceremonies.
Obeisance is a sort of surrender, an admission (in the case of church-state issues) that what you are doing is in the name of a Deity.
The mystery of religious symbolism in American public life stems (in the popular mind) from the fact that we are more than two centuries from the nation's founding. At the time of independence (1776 for us, 1783 for you) the U.S. was the world's only significant republic, and we've forgotten this. Virtually all other nations claimed to derive their power from their Sovereigns, who in turn claimed to derive their power from God.
To make a long story short, by using terms like "Under God," "In God We Trust," the important implication is "Not Under the King," "We Trust Not in Rulers."
There has been a lot of slippage in this understanding. The U.S. never put the image of identifiable real people (except as models) on coinage. It was usually an allegorical representation of Liberty. Sadly, this changed in 1909 when it was argued, among other things, that since Lincoln was "the very embodiment of Liberty" it was OK to put his image on the cent. And it's been all downhill from there.
Since Congress has a chaplain, and there are prayers before sessions, how does separation work in this case?
This is the common (including among Americans) misunderstanding of the role of separation. The Chaplain and the prayers (not adhering to a single denomination) are an expression of "give us wisdom." It is a quantum leap from the intent in state church governments, where the implication is that the church is what gives the secular government legitimacy.
Not that it concerns me, since I am still a British citizen in the US on a green card, but I still think these are inconsisencies. Such in the case of official recognition of homosexual relationships, which has the religious right with their knickers in a twist about violating the sanctity of marriage.
Church people are as entitled as anyone else to express their opinion on the law. But the state still has the power to decide who can marry.
I would say that separation of church and state would mean that all unions, of whatever sort, were just civil unions, a sort of contract that took care of property/inheritance/medical decision rights, and everything else was a matter for the individuals concerned and their church(es) if applicable. cf: France, where there are separate civil and church marriage ceremonies.
But all [marriage] unions in the U.S. are civil unions. You get your license to marry from your state government. Who actually says words in front of you is irrelevant, so long as your state recognizes them. Priests, ministers, rabbis, etc., are empowered by the state to perform marriages. Your marriage is just as valid if you go to City Hall.
The prospect of same-sex marriage is a good example of the separation of church and state. If same-sex marriage becomes legal in the civil realm, it will be legal, period, whether or not any minister will perform the marriage. But neither will the government be able to force any religion or minister to perform such a marriage (or any other, for that matter).
Interesting trivia: under Hillary Clinton's health care proposal, it would have been a criminal offense for a physician who specialized in women's health to refuse to perform an abortion if asked, regardless of his or her moral or religious beliefs on the subject.
Thank God Hillary's plan got aborted.
Don't worry. You're not out of touch. Just because Peter Rosa says it doesn't make it true.
Nope.
"May the Children of the Stock of Abraham, who dwell in this land, continue to merit and enjoy the good will of the other Inhabitants; while every one shall sit under his own vine and fig tree, and there shall be none to make him afraid."
--George Washington
...are as [sic] the agnostics and atheists.
Possibly, but the founding fathers were not "religious," they were deists, believing that there is a god that must create the world and set it into motion, but does not require daily prayer. In modern times more people who would have been deists are atheists (there are still plenty of deists) because it's easier to explain the world without the need of a deity.
"I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite Father, expects or requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is even infinitely above it."
--Benjamin Franklin
Chief Justice Roy Moore of Alabama was required to remove a tablet with the Ten Commandments on it from the state judicial building, while the Commandments are on the wall of the federal Supreme Court.
There's a difference. The Supreme Court inscription is part of an exhibit on the history of Western and American law, of which the Ten Commandments are an undeniably important part. Moore's monument however was clearly intended as nothing more than a religious symbol. One other difference: Moore's monument had the text of the Ten Commandments, the Supreme Court inscriptions are blank.
A senior Christian Cleric and the Chief Rabbi participate in the Presidential transition ceremony, when the incoming President (so far) swears the Oath of Office on a bible, while schools in the South are prohibited from having a prayer before football matches.
The use of religious symbols for being sworn in as president is a choice of the person being sworn in. In addition, the "so help me God" at the end of the oath recited by most Presidents is optional. It is not in the Constitution.
In the case of football matches it may be optional, but it's a group, and the majority of the group could end up ostracizing a minority if it is there. One individual making his own choice doesn't hurt anyone.
Dang, I thought that was the start of a joke, like this one:
A Catholic priest and a rabbi are walking down the street together when they see a 10-year-old boy up ahead. "Let's screw him," says the priest.
"Out of what?" asks the rabbi.
On the other hand I'll take days off any way I can get them expecially "free days" like Christmas (by "free day" I mean a day where I don't lose a vacation or sick day and where a backlog of work does not pile up because the company was open that day).
I'd really like to see at least 5 more National Holidays during the year where everything shuts down - heck I'd even celebrate Groundhog Day for that matter ;-)
Christmas Day (along with New Year's Day, Memorial Day, July 4, Labor Day and Thansgiving) is picked separately from the rest of the week. If Christmas (or any of the others) falls on your regular day off, then you are off for the day. If you have enough seniority, you can pick the holiday off, even if you would normally be working on that day of the week. Everyone else works that day on a Sunday schedule.
Everyone gets paid double for Christmas, whether they work it or not. You can either get paid that week (effectively getting 48 hrs pay for a 40 hr week), or 'save' the second eight hours and have the opportunity to take some other day off and get paid for it then. anyone who actually works on Christmas gets the first eight hours at regular pay + $2.
(The grey expands into background which has the map title on the right hand side of the poster).
http://www.njtransit.com/sf_train_schedules.shtm#
Arti
I take it the PDF master map is not generated from the same database. Someone at NJT has to redraw it.
It may be generated from the files for actual printing.
Arti
If anything there will be less cars available because the B and D are being returned to their normal length, yet the W is sticking around.
YES!!!!!
W Broadway Local
Extending the G does not mean removing the F local. The current running plan I hear is to run the F and G local and the V express. Remember, once there's express service on that line, the G can't terminate at Smith-9th anymore, meaning it must continue to Church.
Sounds like too much service! Damn! They might as well create another line to run along the Fulton's A/C line.. which I think is more deserving of an express. But since the people don't hold the same influence when it comes to politics and economics, they won't get what they want!
W Broadway Local
David
If there isn't sufficient rolling stock during rush hours, then extend it off-peak only. The peak F runs frequently, so the extra transfer isn't as much of a hardship as at other times.
I think they'd also have to do some maintenance at Church Avenue, replacing the switches.
If be happy to have the G even if nothing else changes.
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/14/nyregion/thecity/14fyi.html
#3 West End Jeff
Arti
Perhaps if you witness someone "surfing" your train on the elevated line, you can pull the cord.
That's a good plan! The sudden deceleration of the train will topple him off, and he will be a ketchup red splat on the street below. People will gather around and cluck their tongues, saying how good a student he was, and that he was only trying to be one of the boys, and the gene pool will be purged of some more stupid genes.
Way to go!
#3 West End Jeff
:0)
Or if it skips Consumer's Park Station....
In service, if the conductor has indication in both zones, the motorman can operate via buzzer/bypass - meaning that the conductor verifies that all dooes are closed by din of his indication. He signals the train operator by buzzer that it's safe to proceed and then the T/O can energize the bypass.
Coming out of the yard, I can't think of any practical reason why they'd move the train with door open but it can be done, even with all doors open.
Back before I was a road Car Inspector, the R-46s had a zero speed relay which prevented the doors from opening while the train was moving. I do not believe that it had a reverse function, however. I believe that they were removed when the ATO was removed. LIRR and MNRR do have such a circuit.
The Adirondack Scenic Railroad up here in the "Great White North" received the donation of several surplus MNRR FL8s. Getting them to work was a pain until my friend Bob Harrison realized that there was a "P" wire type of circuit which was labeled "Door Interlock" that was preventing the unit from moving. Once this circuit was disabled and removed, the unit worked fine
AEM7
Thanks.
AEM7
When you pull the emergency lever (it's not a cord anymore),
this merely sends a request to a computer. If the computer
thinks you are within a train length of a station, it honors
the request and puts the train into emergency. Otherwise it
just causes a message to pop up on the crew's screens.
The danger is not only "are there legitimate reasons for pulling
the cord in between stations". The question one should ask
is "how reliably does the computer know where the train is?"
I guess reliably enough. We don't ask questions like that about airplane autopilots.
Arti
A better aviation parallel would be fly-by-wire control systems.
The computer technology on the new-tech trains is not built to
those standards.
OK. It would be interesting to know, what are the standards, they have.
Arti
If this computer is the same computer that makes the announcements, not very.
I hope this doesn't affect the car's safety mechanisms.
It's the longer route from the J track at Broadway Junction to Atlantic that seems to confuse the system when shuttle service is running.
#3 West End Jeff
All that brake handle does is to connect to a 90' lever valve that dumps the train-line. And it is that valve that has to be closed again. Unless you give the conductor a break, and tell him which cord was pulled, he will have to inspect the entire train.
That having been said, if a passenger was having a heart attack I might pull the cord while the train is in the station... poor example, I'd actually move the victim to the platform, and let the train get the heck out of there....
If there had been a mugging or a stabbing on the train, I would pull the cord in the station, then have another passenger go and tell the conductor what the emergency is, and why and where the cord was pulled, and what sorts of emergency responses are required.
I would probably want the conductor to close up the doors to protect the crime scene.
Now we can have some of the C/Rs here evaluate my plan of action.
Elias
Not neccessarly, a good Train Operator can try to charge the train and look at his gauge and tell where the cord could have been pulled. I mean he won't know its the 7th car on the 1 end unless he is operating an R142/R143 where the computer tells you but the T/O can tell if its the front half or the rear I think.
Do mu trains all charge from the first car? Each pair of cars has a compressor, or do they not work in unison to charge a train line.
A subway train is fairly short. He might know front, middle or back, but I think not. Maybe you can tell on a freight train, but a subway train is only 500 feet long (as far as a brake pipe is concerned.)
Elias
Back in the 70's when you had door problems and had to take a train out of service, you could always count on 3-4 angry geese yanking the cord as they left their car as their final comment on your "situation." :(
Elias
I would probably want the conductor to close up the doors to protect the crime scene.
Really? Would you like to be trapped in the car with the mugger, with no ability to escape? So he can use you as a hostage to bargain his escape?
I would assume that the mugger would have gotten out of the car and/or off of the train as soon as possible. He certainly would not be on the car while the geese are pulling the cord and sending for the conductor.
In any event, if a cord were pulled in the station, both the C/R and the T/O would be out of their cabs looking to see what the problem was. The closing of the doors to protect the scene would only be to prevent new geeseses from entering the car and contaminating the evience.
Elias
The latter is known as the "brake disablement" cord.
Maybe the train cars would uncouple? Or one cord brakes the A truck, while the other accelerates the B truck --> truck ejector. That would stop the car far more quickly than a BIE. :-)
The Catergories Are:
Best Regional Railroad
Best Commuter Railroad
Best City Railroad
Best Shortline Railroad
Best Interurban Railroad
Best Intercity Railroad
Best Tourist Railroad/Museum
PS: these can be railroads from outside the US too
Amtrak midwest service
Amtrak NEC
Amtrak california services(San Joquain?)
Metra
Are there any other regional servies that are not Amtrak?
Best Commuter Railroad:
LIRR
MBTA
Metra
Metrolink(that's the one in LA, right?)
Best City Railroad: Huh? You mean subways, or in city RR's? Either way, 4 isnt enough for this if you mean subways
Metro(Washington DC)
LIRR(or NYC subway if you mean just subways)
Chicago el
BART
London Underground
Oadkyu(is that the correct spelling, I'm thinking of the line is Japan)
Best Shortline Railroad: Not too good on this one, but here's what I know/remember right now
New York Atlantic
Shoreline East
M&E
(What's that line from Chicago through Indiana?)
Best Interurban Railroad: No clue what makes a RR an interurban. All I know is NYW&B, which is long gone
Best Intercity Railroad:
Amtrak
VIA
ICE
That's all I know off the top of my head
Best Tourist Railroad/Museum:
Strassburg RR
Steamtown
Branford(if trolleys count)
Kingston(if trolleys count)
uhhh...RMLI??? Once they get the shuttle train goin then definately
Gog Railway?
I don't really kno too much on out of US RR's.
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/13/national/13BARN.html
Preferably the Lionel Christmas Choo-Choo...
Readers sum it up in a phrase: You Know You're From LI If...
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What About You?
How do you know if someone if from Long Island?
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I like to eat at all the food places on the Island. I like pizza and Ralph's Ices. Let's have a wiener roast today and have a food chat about favorite foods on Long Island and where to eat.
Submitted by: Too Fat Franks
12:39 PM EST, Dec 14, 2003
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You pronounce the word "idea" with an "r" sound.
Submitted by: displaced Jerseyite
12:32 PM EST, Dec 14, 2003
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Readers sum it up in a phrase: You Know You're From LI If...
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In the Flight Path of Controversy
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Beth DeCarbo, LI Life editor
December 14, 2003
We're a unique breed, those of us who call Long Island home. Just ask the 200 or so readers who responded to finish the phrase: "You know you're from Long Island if..."
Cited were things like the food we eat, the way we talk, sentimental destinations and the high cost of living. Thanks to everyone who wrote in - the letters were a hoot. Maybe someday we'll hook up at the mawl for a cupluv slices.
- Beth DeCarbo, LI Life editor
You know you're from Long Island
if ...
... you say you live on Long Island instead of in Long Island.
- Lainie Bloom, Bayville
... you've lived in Brooklyn all of your life.
- John H. Curd, Commack (formerly
of Brooklyn)
... your property taxes equal the cost of a new, midsized automobile.
- Ellen Rothman, Woodbury
... you know how great a double-double burger from All American tastes after a full day at the beach.
- Vincent Austin, Massapequa
... you know that the Nathan's in Oceanside used to be called the Roadside Rest.
- Audrey Kurtin, Bay Shore
... you know what OBI and CMI stand for.
- Arlene Caselli, Port Jefferson
... you know that Glen Cove Road is in Mineola and Mineola Avenue is in Roslyn and Roslyn Road is in Westbury and Westbury Avenue is in Carle Place.
- Elaine Anderson, East Meadow
... you pronounce it Com-mack and not Co-mack.
- Robert Blake, East Northport
... you know someone who has seen Billy Joel in Oyster Bay.
- Donna Ruiz, Glen Head
... you recognize the places Nelson DeMille writes about in "The Gold Coast."
- Roberta Furman, Old Bethpage
... you went to Jahn's (ice cream parlor) on Hempstead Turnpike after a session at the "rolla" rink.
- Maria DiBenedetto, Wantagh
... when directions to your house begin with, "Exit ... "
- Ellen Nardozza, Medford
... you remember Old Country Road when it was an old country road.
- Ruthann De Stefano, Fort Salonga
... you know that Field Six is not a field but a place to park and enjoy beautiful Jones Beach.
- Jackie Priestley, Wantagh
... you still love the Good Rats-rats-rats-rats.
- Lisa Kristel, Valley Stream-Syosset
... you have to get a permit to have a yard sale.
- Unsigned
... election signs go up on your neighbors' lawns telling you to vote Republican. (What your neighbor doesn't tell you is that if he doesn't post the sign, he's probably out of a job.)
- Allen Ambrose, Westbury
... if you say Wantagh as Wantaw, not Wantog.
- Scott Lownie, Levittown
... you love the Island for its proximity to Manhattan, but you rarely cross any bridges, so your E-ZPass has a permanent $25 balance.
- Patricia Riew, Wantagh
... your childhood memories include eating Zorn's chicken out of the blue bucket.
- Andrea Miller, East Meadow
... you mail this letter to Newsday, then drive to Melville on the LIE and the letter gets there first.
- Tony Raiona, Mastic
... when worse comes to worst, there's always a diner open.
- Unsigned
... someone asks you, "How far is ... ," and you answer in time rather than in distance.
- Angela Einsel, Huntington Station
... you have the choice of dozens of beautiful beaches and you still own a swimming pool.
- Jeff Mark, Smithtown
... you go for a cuplov slices, you gotta get da bagels 'n' cream cheese, and you axed, "Did ja eet jet?"
- Patrice Stango, Lindenhurst
... every rational voice inside you that talks about rent, phone bills, taxes, electricity, mortgages, politicians, health care, traffic or sun tells you to leave ... and you still can't go.
- Gene Caiola, Bay Shore
... you remember going to Jolly Rogers at the corner of Hempstead Turnpike and Hicksville Road.
- Timothy L. Busam, Levittown
... you still look for the toll booth on the Southern State Parkway in Valley Stream.
- Liz Podgorsky, Lynbrook
... you know your distant future might involve the state of Florida.
- Laurie Chester, North Bellmore
... you refer to Westchester County as upstate.
- Judith Ehrbar, Northport
... you know where "The End" is.
- Judy Mohrmann, Massapequa Park
And If That's Not Enough
Just type "you know you're from Long Island" into an Internet search engine (like Google), and you'll unearth a number of hometown gems. Here's a sampling:
You know you're from Long Island if ...
... you feel like you know Howard Stern.
... when you're away from Long Island, you love it and when you're there, you don't.
... you know the exact point at which Queens turns into Nassau simply on intuition.
... you're still waiting for a bridge to Connecticut.
... you've tried to use your father's monthly ticket to ride the LIRR. And it worked.
... you've never really fully evaluated the meaning of the name Hicksville.
... you know where the Commack Motor Inn is but you "have never been there."
... you've never been to Times Square on New Year's Eve.
... no, you don't want mustard on that burger!
... the most exciting day of summer is when all tickets to every Jones Beach show go on sale.
... you want the Yankees to stay in the Bronx, but would probably go to more games if they moved to Manhattan.
... you can order a pizza pie and a soda and people will understand.
... you've never taken an MTA bus.
... you felt slighted when Snapple sold out.
... you don't associate Fire Island with gay men.
... when you hear Billy Joel's "Scenes From an Italian Restaurant" you try to figure out where it is. It's Christiano's in Syosset.
... you know which parts of "The Godfather" were filmed on LI.
... you've said stupid things like, "Strong Island."
... you always liked Billy Joel, but as soon as you leave, you love Billy Joel.
... you don't see the big deal about the Hamptons.
... you think if you're not from Long Island or NYC, you're not really from New York.
... you don't go to Manhattan, you go to "The City."
... you never realize you have an accent until you leave.
... at some point in your life, you've gone clamming.
... you curse. A lot.
... if your parents didn't, your grandparents lived in the city.
... you or someone you know has gotten an animal from North Shore Animal League.
... you never want to "change at Jamaica."
... your parents took you to Nathan's or Carvel (on the way home from the beach).
... you can name at least three players on the Islanders' Stanley Cup teams.
... you cope with the fact that the Islanders have completely tanked since LaFontaine left.
... you remember the exact day you stopped going to Jones Beach and started going to Robert Moses.
... you've had a seagull poop on your car.
... even the concept of the Islanders ever leaving is unrealistic.
... you've cruised on the "turnpike."
... you know someone with a cabana.
... you've played golf at Eisenhower Park (legally or otherwise).
... you hate paying tolls.
... you don't have to go far to see your family.
... you know the difference between WLIR and WDRE, even though they played the same music.
... you were an Islander/Met/Jet fan or a Ranger/Yankee/Giant fan. There was no crossover.
... you can correctly pronounce Hauppauge, Commack, Islip, Islandia and Massapequa.
... there are no real bagels or pizza anywhere else (except The City).
"if you bitch about your N21 service"
Ah, but one of the lines was "you've never taken an MTA bus."
...if you rewrite history so that Nassau County wasn't once part of Queens.
One of the danger signals -- I could feel it when the train went into Floral Park. Though the borough boundary must go through someone's house.
...you know that your computer/PDA/cellphone-equipped kids will
be forever deprived by the disappearance of Nunley's.
...you got lost driving home the day they replaced the parkway signs
with those little white squares with the lighthouses.
...you miss the rocket and the maze at Wantagh Park.
Oh yes, I used to LOVE going there when I was a kid!
AirTrain JFK opens 100 years to the day after the Wright Brothers flight.
I think everyone should bicycle to Jamaica to take the AirTrain.
LGA: A new airtrain/airtrain line from Jamaica to LGA via Van Wyck with a stop at the Flushing Main St station, terminating at the ferry terminal near the delta shuttle terminal
The Astoria lines extended somehow from the current terminus(NO NEW BRANCHES! It'd only clog up service). Does not stop at the ferry terminal, ends at Flushing Main St station with stop at Shea Stadium
ISP: Branch from KO to airport. New modifications to schedule would follow. Example of eastbound train schedule on weekends(I figure that at the earliest, this would be done with ESA, so I've figured that in too as an origin)(trains every hour):
GCT-ISP
NYP-ISP
NYP-Greenport
GCT-ISP
NYP-ISP
GCT-Greenport
GCT-ISP
NYP-ISP
NYP-Greenport
GCT-ISP
NYP-ISP
GCT-Greenport
Something like that. All in all, every train that terminates at KO is extended to ISP, except for the ones that are extended to Greenport. No transfer would be required for those 4 Greenport trains, well, MAYBE at Jamaica.
Then some trains from Greenport to ISP would run too, maybe 3 per day, say at 7am, noon, and 4 pm.
Stewart Airport: This is part of the I-287 rail line plan for trains to run from Port Chester-White Plains-Tappan Zee bridge-Suffern-Stewart Airport. This is a great rail line and should definately be done
EWR: PATH should replace airtrain. Allows for direct rail to EWR from midtown and downtown, and from exchange place.
Republic airport: just re-open the old republic station and have a bus running every now and then. It's a small airport with no scheduled flights really, so it'd only be limited service.
HPN: Maybe some kind of branch off the Harlem line from White Plains North? Trains would originate at GCT, stops at 125th St-Fordham-Bronxville-Scarsdale-Hartsdale-White Plains-White Plains North-then on to the airport
Hartford: What's the airport there? What's the closest rail line to it? If it's what I'm thinking, then trains should run from the airport to Springfield, Ma(or even Worcester), and another line stopping at Hartford-New Haven-Stamford and other stops along the way. Maybe even a line to New London, or would that be too much?
Tweed Airport: Pretty close to the current New Haven Union Station, right? Isn't there a track that gets pretty close to the airport, or is it gone now? Either way, some way from Tweed with lines to Stamford, Ct, and maybe New London and Hartford(maybe even to the Hartford airport)
Is that airport in bridgeport used for regularly scheduled flights? What about Danbury airport?
Also, Westhampton has a HUGE airport, so big they were even thinking about using it as an emergency landing area for space shuttles. However, it is hardly used and has no regularly scheduled flights. I think airlines should start doin some regional flights to this airport. Maybe just summer only service? Trains running from the airport to Montauk and maybe to the North Fork as well via the Manorville-Eastport ROW.
Any other airport that I'm forgetting?
For the same cash, why not (e.g.) run more trains to Westport and shorten its waiting list for the MNRR parking lot, run AirTrain all over far Queens, run three-minute srvice on the Long Island lines, and really get people out of their cars? THEN they'd take a train to the plane, transfer or no transfer.
Arti
Obviously for me to have a direct link to the airports.
Arti
If I had to make a choice between the two, I'd go for Penn, but as you are offering both, I'll take it.
Arti
But they're doing a magnificent job redoing PATH, and JFK AirTrain is about to open--the first complete new line in New York in generations, and done without the endless bickering of NY politicians.
As far as ISP goes, I still think it should have the direct rail. If you think about it, there are only so many ways the track can get around to the terminals. It is possible. The fact that it is an awkward routing shouldn't really be much of a factor. Also, the airport gets some pretty heavy use courtesy of Southwest. And just remember, almost everywhere on LI is served by LIRR. Trains can easily run to Greenport and Manhattan via the main line, and to Montauk via the Manorville-Eastport ROW.
Stewart will almost definately get rail service if the i-287 rail line is built. While it certainly isn't JFK, LGA, or EWR, it still has a steady number of flights. A direct rail line would also bring more use. I'm willing to bet there are plenty of people that don't know of Stewart Airport or the fact that there is an airport in the Newburgh area.
Closest rail to HPN is the Harlem line, but now that I look again, it's pretty damn far. Maybe just buses to White Plains and the suburbs and some other areas, maybe some places in CT.
Wasn't Republics station closed only when LIRR got the C3's?
BDL should definatly have direct rail goin there. They've got the rail line, use the damn thing. Where should it go to though? New Haven? Stamford? New London? Springfield?
So as of now, here's what I think are the priority of which lines should be built(listed in order from top priority to lowest)
LGA
BDL
EWR
ISP
SFW
Also, do you think it any airline will ever start usin Gabreski on a regular basis? Ya know, scheduled passenger flights and stuff. It'd be great for the Hamptons. I think flights from Michigan, Florida, Maryland, Phili, and maybe one from some other place in New England and one from someplace a bit further out west.
Flights(wow, your right, I do have a lot of proposals, lol):
Orlando-Phili-Westhampton
Atlanta-Baltimore-Westhampton
Detroit-Albany/Syracuse-Westhampton
Manchester-Providence-Westhampton
Just a few gueses, and yes, I have met people from Michigan and Florida who go to the Hamptons yearly, and I have a friend in Phili who does the same.
New Haven, New London, Springfield, yes. Stamford, no. Stamford is much, much closer to Westchester County Airport than it is to Bradley. Although a rail line from Stamford to Westchester Airport would also depend on the 287 rail line, which would have to be connected to MN.
"Awkward" is putting it very mildly. Consider this diagram of ISP. The LIRR is off to the top of the diagram. A rail line would have to be threaded somehow through the parking lots of the hangars on the upper left of the diagram, then around the end of Runway 6/24 on the lower left, and finally in and around all sorts of airport facilities along the bottom of the diagram before finally reaching the terminal. While it's not apparent from the diagram, there are industrial properties wedged right up against airport land on the bottom of the diagram, further constraining the location of any rail line.
All this, for what? Southwest Airlines has 24 flights in and out of ISP each day. Given WN's decent load factors, that's probably 3,000 passengers. This may increase a little over time, but due to stiff competition from B6 at JFK we're unlikely to see any dramatic increases. Other carriers at ISP operate regional jets and turboprops and probably don't carry 1,000 pax between them. So all in all, there probably are fewer than 4,000 people using ISP per day, only some of whom would be potential rail customers. That's so far short of what would be needed to make a costly rail extension worthwhile, it's scarcely worth discussing.
According to the most recent schedule, WN indeed has 24 daily departures from ISP on weekdays (weekends are slightly different):
BWI - 9; MDW -3; FLL -3; BNA - 3; MCO - 3; TPA - 2; PBI - 2 = 24.
Aside from those flights you listed, there are also flights to:
Albuquerque
HOU(Houston Hobby)
Las Vegas
LA
Louisville
New Orleans
Orange County
Phoenix
Reno
Scaramento
San Jose
Seattle/Tacoma
Tucson
Atlanta and Cincinnati via Delta
Boston via American Eagle
Phili via US airways
BDL via Continental Express(This is very strange to me. I saw it on the departure list but I can't find a schedule for it)
Cleaveland and Grand Rapids via Northwest.
There are many others too. I think there are some to syracuse, buffalo, and rochester.
This equals well over 24, even over atleast 40! Then there's the arrivals from those cities.
There used to be in-city airport check-in, where they took your luggage from you (The West London Air Terminal on (I think) the Hammersmith Road was an example). They disappeared a while back, but there has been a renaissance. You can check in at Paddington and get rid of your luggage for a number of carriers when you take the train to Heathrow.
Bringing transit to underprivileged neighbourhoods are often schemes that will generate the greatest benefits. But even the railfan often overlooks the mass transit function of the subway.
AEM7
"However, the size of most airports in relation to the metro area mean that airport can at most generate one stop on a heavy rail line, or a dedicated bus shuttle from a transit center: not a whole line for the sole purpose of serving airports. "
Atlanta, Newark and Chicago are consistent with your view. The Airport circulators there connect with one stop on the mass transit train. It is not possible to operate Atlanta's Airport or Denver's Airport without a circulator.
New York's JFK Airport has two stops instead of one: Howard Beach and Jamaica. The Airport Circulator was extended to meet transit at those stops. The PA's Circulator is the Airport's investment, not the Transit Authority's, though the TA did spend $350 million of its own money to renovate the two relevant stations.
So JFK is consistent with your view.
Very true, but then again, look at how many people are comming to LGA, JFK, EWR, and ISP daily. It is still enough to warrant service as long as it goes to where the majority of people go. The astoria el extension is a must. PATH to EWR is another very important line. An ISP rail line is fairly important to help the airport grow. Also, you make it seem like I'm saying to run trains JFK airtrain style, once ever 4 minutes. This isn't true. Try looking at my proposed schedule again.
Also, while a mall is another very important area to serve, it does not have the same amount of people as an airport does. Also, malls usually have their peak use during weekends and vacations. Airports is all around heavy use, with even heavier use during vacations.
LGA is very important as it's the most centrally located airport in NYC. It would be great if one day there'd be flights LGA-LCY.
My idea for an airport connector for LGA is as follows:
Basic service pattern would be:
6pth Astoria to Jamaica
6tph Metropolitan to Shea
6tph Woodside to Shea
About the baggage check in thing, I think it could work at some stations. For ISP, maybe NYP/GCT, Jamaica, Mineola, Hicksville, and some other stop before KO.
How many problems has there been with this process over in London?
18 new cars were ordered for the service - without luggage racks!!!!.
Stupid.
So where do the passengers with luggage put their bags?
ON THE SEATS!!! Is that stupid, or what?
Even the most underused Rapid Transit line (Cleveland's Red Line) in the country has luggage racks in the cars, since it serves Cleveland's Hopkins Airport.
The rail station also seems rather awkwardly located. I wandered around BWI for a while when I had a long wait between connecting flights a couple of years ago. I of course was curious to see the light rail connection - though alas I didn't have quite enough time to risk a short ride on it - and was surprised at just how long a trek the station was from the main part of the airport. The International Terminal was a ghost town in the early afternoon, almost entirely deserted, and in any event seems to have only a couple of flights each day.
The reason the terminal seems empty is that the interational flights seem to be clustered for the early AM and late PM. The "long trek" is due to the fact that the terminal are the last new piers built at BWI.
As to the Light Rail's circutious route, that was dictated by the terrain, the fact that the railroad and the airport are not adjacent to each other (in fact, if the WB&A were still in business it would be in a tunnel under the airport) and the existing roadways that were already there.
One interesting transit connection is that WMATA now runs a bus from Greenbelt to BWI, so we now have a Maryland MTA and WMATA direct connection. Could DART be next?
An R-62 Departing Bedford Park Boulecard
An R-142 and a Redbird Together in the Snow
Angle shot of R-142 1220
R-142A 7661 Entering Bedford Park Boulevard
2 R-142's Side By Side
The Redbirds live!
Youre banned from making any more comments about the redbirds.
I was out there today also but it already started to rainnnnnnnnnnn...
I don't know what the hell plan 9 is.
It's not from hell, it's from outer space.
Arti
So's mike.
http://www.badmovies.org/movies/plannine/
It's a real slushy mess out there.
I am very fortunate to have an actual original roll sign from one of the NY&Q trolleys and there are quite a number of interesting destinations on it..... But I am more indebted to Mr. Vincent Seyfried, who has spent countless hours with me preparing this book and sharing his treasure chest of information about New York metropolitan area trolley and railroad operations. He's 85 and still very active. God bless him!
One last thing about the Manhattan and Queens. The southern end of the line ended at 109th Avenue and 157th Street in South Jamaica, just west of the Long Island Rail Road tracks. However, track had been laid on the other side of 109th Avenue for an extension. The line, however, was never extended past the LIRR. Mr. Seyfried had always heard of this track existing, and one day he rode his bicycle to that area (something surely no one would do today in this dangerous neighborhood) from his house in Hollis. He didn't see any tracks but brought a broom with him (109th Avenue was a dirt road) and swept the area until tracks were revealed and photographed. Now that's diehard research!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
The line was abandoned in two parts: On Aug. 3, 1925, the main part of the line from Woodside to 99th St. & 43rd Ave., leaving a shuttle operation on the remainder of the line to Flushing. On Oct. 29, 1925, the remainder of the line was abandoned w/o any bus replacement.
I walked the entire line in the summer of 1961. The flashboards (that carry the trolley wires) under the IRT on 61st St. were still intact, as was a line pole on Woodside Ave. over the LIRR. I also discovered the remains of a line pole somewhere on 43rd Ave. No remains of any rail were found anywhere, as the line was torn up immediately after abandonment.
I have a transfer in my collection from the Corona Line, dated Dec. 5, 1915.
a 7 extention from Times Square along the West Side Highway from 42 Street to the Battery. This will be the far West Side trunk line. Stops will be made at 36 St (Javits Center), 23 St (Chelsea Piers), 14 St, Christopher, Canal St/Holland Tunnel, Chambers St, Battery Park City/WTC, before heading to Brooklyn. The 7 West Side trunk line will be great for people on the far West Side-who currrently have to walk to 8th Av to use the IND.
extention of the L north from 8th Av/14 St to the West Side Highway and north to the new sports complex.
The High Line freight viaduct could be used as a bikeway or, as I suggest, a monorail.
What?
I think the 7 is good as it is, and should be left alone.
:)
I think it should just extend to downtown via the highline to Christopher st, then via the westside highway, either above or below it, or hell, next to it! lol. I like your list of stops, but one more maybe, Battery Park/Whitehall Terminal.
--Z--
Battery Park City/WTC station will be located on the West Side Highway between Liberty and Rector streets. This station will be great for residents at Battery Park City and workers at the World Fincancial Center and the new WTC. It will link up into the WTC transit hub.
The last stop in Manhattan on the 7 will be Battery Place. Located at West Street and Battery Place, this station will have connections with the 4/5 at Bowling Green 2 blocks east, with a possible South Ferry transit hub between the 1/9, 4,5,N,R trains. Provisions for service to Brooklyn will be built at the station and tunnels, if needed.
These are the readings:
15TH AV.
162ND ST.
SANFORD AV.
WOODSIDE
FLUSHING BRIDGE
KISSENA PARK
HILLCREST
JAMAICA
COLLEGE PT.
SUBWAY
LUTHERAN CEM.
GRAND AV.
MT. ZION CEM.
SPECIAL
And that is the first mass transit reference I've ever seen to Hillcrest. Assuming that the Hillcrest in the rollsign refers to the Hillcrest section of Queens between Kew Gardens Hills and Fresh Meadows.
"Hillcrest" was a crossover north of Union Turnpike where the cars could reverse. This was for Flushing Bridge / Hillcrest service. Also, the "15th Avenue" destination refers to a turnback at College Point Boulevard and 15th Avenue. The "162nd Street" sign refers to a turnback at 45th Avenue and 162nd Street, although the cars could also reverse on the single track a block further south at 46th Avenue.
:>) ~ Sparky
12th December, 1988: Clapham Junction train crash kills 35.
I like the new cars. The canned announcements have to go though. I found them repetitive, obnoxious & far too 'polite'. Part of the fun of riding is hearing the TA workers rhyme off the dialogue as fast as they can, especially on a run through midtown. Some of them are good at it.
Two questions:
I had been reading about this 'garbage vaccuum' train and so was expecting a cleaner system in general, but I was a bit surprised that the trackbeds were as littered as they were. I suppose it doesn't get a chance to make the rounds that often. Has it been effective by any means?
Something we have little (or none?) of in Toronto, is signals within platform lengths. I noticed that many of them seemed to be timers as well. I guess those are to control station entry speed, but why are they necessary?
Thanks Gents.
MW
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
Hope to see your system one day!
If you do ever make it up here, don't be too bowled over by the simplicity of the subway (!) in comparison to yours...if there's anything that Toronto's got going for it (other than general cleanliness) it's the intermodal transfers. On day 2 of the huge snowstorm when I had ridden the F to Roosevelt to catch the Q33 to La Guardia and was waiting with my luggage on an embankment of snow, I was thinking about just that!
Nice photo, though. But it ain't goin on my desktop. :)
It will probably be swapped out for that work train pic I took today.
Is if the JFK Airtrain?
SEPTA's Norristown Line?
LA's Blue, Green, and Gold Lines?
Dallas' DART?
Houston's METRORAIL?
St.Louis' METROLINK?
Boston's Green Line, SEPTA Subway-Surface, Media-Sharon Hill lines?
Is Light Rail defined by its operating characteristics, like at grade operation, on-board fare collection, or a rapid-transit style collection or the POP fare collection method?
Definitions of Light Rail on the Web:
Generally applies to electric rail transportation capable of operating short train sets and that uses exclusive, but not usually grade-separated, rights-of-way. The Green Line is an example of light rail.
www.ctps.org/bostonmpo/mpo/gloss.htm
The modern version of a streetcar or tram. Usually runs above ground on tracks in the street though sometime on a separate right-of-way
dnrweb.dnr.state.md.us/smartgrowth/GLOSSARY.HTM
A streetcar-type vehicle operated on city streets, semi-exclusive rights-of-way, or exclusive rights-of-way. Service may be provided by step-entry vehicles or by level boarding.
www.bts.gov/publications/transportation_profile/minnesota/html/chapter_i.html
A modern electric train system capable of on-street running, but segregated from road traffic as much as possible
www.wb2020.qld.gov.au/techpapers/p_glossary.htm
Lightweight passenger rail cars operating singly (or in short, usually two-car, trains) on fixed rails in right-of-way that is not separated from other traffic for much of the way. Light rail vehicles are driven electrically with power being drawn from an overhead electric line via a trolley or a pantograph. Also known as "streetcar," "tramway," or "trolley car." () -->
www.travelmatters.org/about/glossary
Street Running
Overhead Current Collection
Single "units" that are run in pairs, but not longer.
Onboard fare collection or POP
low-level or mid-level boarding stations
liberal signal rules and line of sight operation
open right of ways that re not grade seperated
light rail (<115# RE)
Is if the JFK Airtrain?
No
SEPTA's Norristown Line?
No
LA's Blue, Green, and Gold Lines?
Yes
Dallas' DART?
Isn't this a commuter rail line?
St.Louis' METROLINK?
Yes
Boston's Green Line, SEPTA Subway-Surface, Media-Sharon Hill lines?
Yes
The rails, by the way, are heavy.
Isn't this a commuter rail line?
-----------
You're thinking of TRE, or Trinity Railway Express which is a diesel commuter system with eitehr Budd RDC's or Bi-level coaches.
Dart is LRT just like Houstons gonna be I understand.
I wouldn't assume the people would refer to them as DART, since it's a different system connecting to another area like PATCO does.
I noticed on The T website for fort worth, the VRE cars are actually pictured with the buses and paratransit vehicles, so that's got me wondering too.
I got to ride all three modes operated by DART a long time ago. I liked the light rail line, the best part being when the line crosses a large wetland on a viaduct south of downtown. The Budd cars were being used on the TRE at the time, too, and they were nice and clean. You can see pictures of both the Budds and the new Toronto-style bilevel cars at DART's TRE page. I like the color scheme of the coaches. It's nice to see the flag of a state which is commonly associated with car-only transportation used so boldly to promote mass transit.
Mark
Mike is right in saying:
Light Rail systems generally exhibit many of the following traits:
Street Running
Overhead Current Collection
Single "units" that are run in pairs, but not longer.
Onboard fare collection or POP
low-level or mid-level boarding stations
liberal signal rules and line of sight operation
open right of ways that re not grade seperated
light rail (<115# RE)
But there are many exceptions, and by focusing on a definition we actually forget that what you're doing is designing a system to move people -- whatever it's called.
For example, light rail out West is very different from light rail here. Light rail out west has real trains (sometimes up to three cars are permanently articulated), and they have wide loading gauge, and they often have high platforms and high speed running, and off-vehicle fare collection. But it's still light rail, because it's what the community will accept.
On the other hand, there's heavy rail that have overhead wires, have grade crossings, and don't have turnstiles, and runs single cars or two cars that are coupled together. (Skokie Swift line in Chicago).
Definition is misleading. The issue is: for the passenger volume we are trying to carry, do we need turnstiles? Do we want street running (thus necessitating overhead wires)? Do we want full grade separation? Do we want some of the light rail features, and some of the heavy rail ones? What will the community accept?
So it's kind of dumb to ask for a definition.
Dallas' DART?
Isn't this a commuter rail line?
Dallas Area Rapid Transit. Operator of bus and light rail. The Dallas-Fort Worth Commuter Rail is called the Trinity Railway Express or TRE for short.
Boston's Green Line
This is a "trolley".
AEM7
I think the bucks are there for heavy rail systems...a lot of these light rail systems end up costing as much as heavy rail might. I think light rail seems cheaper up front, even though it might not be in the long run. It's also "non-threatening" to people whose only understanding of heavy rail is the images they see on TV of subways painted to look like NYC in the 1970s when graffiti and crime ran amok.
As far as what mode is best for a given city, that depends on a lot of things. Denver, Houston, Dallas, and Phoenix are definitely large enough for heavy rail, provided urban planning were carried out to foster denser land-use patterns. For smaller cities a light rail rapid transit system with dedicated ROW might be a better option, provided costs are kept under control. Cities like Louisville or Albuquerque, which have decided to build light rail may have made the right choice. I don't see Albuquerque ever having the population for heavy rail.
The other light rail proposal I think that is of good merit is that of Atlanta's circle line, which is planned to provide crosstown service to compliment MARTA's heavy rail service to and from the CBD. It's the light rail systems that are integrated with heavy rail tha fascinate me most, and this looks like a good model for such integration.
Mark
And they now can see how it feels when they walk through the denser areas of their cities and see subway or elevated train stations on the sidewalks. They will get to experience having busy newstands as part of their terrain. There will now be rumbling train noises intrinsically mixed in with the other sounds of their downtowns. People will have to run to catch a train. And there is going to be some new experiences with being around "others", of finding new things to be interested in with people "you normally wouldn't meet up with".
I just think this is going to result in some interesting bursts of energy in art and literature. The "subway mindset" is getting around...
Mark
If they could afford to. Those aren't exactly the cheapest cities in the USA to live in. Maybe that shows those dumbass urban planners what they should be building.
Of course it does. Since small towns and suburban sprawls are so much cheaper, they should dismantle large cities like New York, Chicago, and San Francisco, so everyone can afford to live in a big house and drive a big SUV. Those urban planners who are talking about smart growth is so nuts when all that smart growth does is drive up property rates without any benefits. They are just displacing the poor from the cities. Where will all those poor people go?
AEM7
However you bring up an extremely valid point in that it is poor longtime residents who can end up getting squeezed out when people with higher incomes return to the the city. This is a very relevant issue in my own West Philly neighborhood which is currently undergoing gentrification. Just how we will be able to at once enjoy the benefits of revitalization without pushing out the people who stuck with the neighborhood for decades before it became hip to live here is a question that has not yet been settled.
I don't know a lot about strategies which would lead to mixed-income neighborhoods, but if anyone knows more about them, I'd love to hear it.
Mark
Such as half-decent public transportation ;-)
Blandtown?
Mark
I can't tell you the origin of the name Blandtown, but it's the home of the massive NS Inman Yard. A developer also wants to build a huge mixed-use development there, presumably because of the prospect of the Belt Line getting built, in addition to the resurgence the area is going through.
Mark
Wow, a place I actually been to. That place will be hard to develop. It's very close to downtown, but there is literally nothing there. Maybe the belt line would help you get some places, but it'll still look like the middle of nowhere. Will take 10-20 years of development effort for anything worth living to be built in that area, plus the railroad yard would need to be mitigated. Too many trucks.
AEM7
Street Running There's some running in the median of a grade separarted highway on the Beckton branch, but no true on street running.
Overhead Current Collection Nope, 3rd rail, unusually for the UK with underrunning shoes.
Single "units" that are run in pairs, but not longer. DLR trains are usually two 2-car units. There is a capacity upgrade going on to convert the Bank-Lewisham service to six cars.
Onboard fare collection or POP I don't think all stations by any means have turnstiles.
low-level or mid-level boarding stations High level throughout.
liberal signal rules and line of sight operation Nope - full automatic operation.
open right of ways that re not grade seperated Nope - fully grade separated.
light rail (<115# RE) I presume so.
So the "in general" statement can sometimes be almost completely wrong.
Or rather the people in charge of the Docklands redevelopment thought that they needed a transit system, saw that light rail was cheap, replaced all the crappy features of it with good ones and came up with a huge success.
It's like: This is my grandfather's ax. My father replaced the blade and I replaced the handle.
In my opinion, most of HBLR's function could have been handled better and more efficiently by an expanded PATH system. But NJ Transit, balancing capital budget, function and completion schedule, chose light rail.
I'm not complaining.
Or could it be that most people's perception of light rail are the crappy features that often come with it?
Since the new vehicle was planned to be the replacement for aging PCC streetcars in both cities, the brains at UMTA co-opted the term "light rail" from the British, where it referred to a railroad built to lighter engineering standards than main line railroads.
It's really a marketing term, not an engineering one.
It seems to be used to sell the concept of street railway transit to cites that dumped their streetcars years ago.
The term Light Rail didn't tend to take in Boston, San Francisico or Philadelphia, where the operating agencies refer to their Light Rail lines but the riders still call them streetcars or trolleys.
Baltimore, Cleveland, St. Louis, Dallas, Sacramento, San Jose and San Diego have rail operations that combine streetcar, subway and interurban characteristics, so how do you market it?
The best way to define "Light Rail" is that it is a marketing term. That's all.
Also, I wonder if we were using vehicle size or mass, or even rail size, as our citerion, wouldn't most early (I mean 1820s and 30s here) steam railroads also count as light rail? They were rather small compared to what came later.
Mark
I guess the lesson is pigeon-hole at your own peril!
Mark
1. No longer having to take the bus
2. Traveling 45 MPH in the middle of a snow storm without slipping and sliding
3. Not having to drive to work
4. Being able to be car free
As for an actual definition, I think jersey mike's was the best so far. Short often articulated cars, overhead power, pop fares, and semi seperated right of way.
I am a big fan of SEPTA's Rt. 100 hi-speed line. It doesn't really fit into any catagory but i guess light rail would be the closest (kind of). Fast operation, high platforms for fast loading (in other places a low floor vehicle could accomplish this. see question at bottom). decent headways. The third rail may be a little dated for this type of service but overhead could just as easily be used and was even planed for in the design stage A lot of people argue that the chestnut hill trains should be converted to mass transit, not that i nessessarily agree with this but if they were, I think an operation similar to the norristown line would be a good choice.
oops. got a little of topic. sorry.
Sean@Temple
question- would a low floor lrt be capable of high transit speeds ie. 70-80 mph
Street tramways / streetcars and , later, trolleybuses / trolleycoaches also operated under these provisions. ( Drivers did not require a road licence )
I can only think of two railways that opened under that act and are sitll open:
Vale of Rheidol Light Railway (Aberystwyth - Devil's Bridge)
Welshpool & Llanfair Light Railway (Welshpool - Llanfair Caereinion)
Closed ones I can think of (have I missed any) are:
Bere Alston & Calstock Light Railway (Bere Alston - Callington)
Brackenhill Light Railway (Brackenhill Jct (Yorks.) - Hemsworth Colliery)
Campbeltown & Machrihanish Light Railway (Campbeltown - Machrihanish)
Cleobury Mortimer & Ditton Priors Light Railway (Cleobury Mortimer - Ditton Priors)
Derwent Valley Light Railway (Cuff - Layerthorpe)
East Kent Light Railway (Shepherd's Well - Sandwich Road or Wingham)
Glyn Valley Tramway (Chirk - Glynceiriog)
Kent & East Sussex Light Railway (Headcorn - Robertsbridge)
Mawddwy Light Railway (I can't actually find this one on any map!)
Mid-Suffolk Light Railway (Haughley - Laxfield)
((Swansea &) Mumbles - this preceded the Act, so doesn't count)
North Sunderland Light Railway (Can't find this one either)
Oxford & Aylesbury Tramroad (Quainton Road - Brill)
Rye & Camber Tramway (Rye - Camber)
Selsey Light Railway (Chichester - Selsey)
Shropshire & Montgomeryshire Light Railway (Shrewsbury (Abbey) - Criggion or Llanymynech)
Tanat Valley Light Railway (Blodwell Jct - Llangynog)
Van Light Railway (Caersws - Van)
Wantage Tramway (Wantage Road - Wantage)
Wisbech & Upwell Tramway (Wisbech - Upwell)
It is one way of measuring success.
Some 'Heavy 'rail lines didn't make it either , ie: Great Central ML and Midland to Manchester !
That one is causing no end of problems. Perhaps the most oblique one is the pressure placed on B'ham NS by the loss of the through York - Leicester Cen - Oxford routing.
Catch up with you later !
Everybody knows that light rail glows in the dark.
That is why it is called light rail.
Otherwise it would be dark rail.
Just like all the other rail.
Elias
Mark
A Snowy Day on the Brighton!
Shot of the day:
I noticed: the yellowbird doesn't have a snow plow!
5194 had an orange Q bullet.
---Sir Ronald of McDonald
www.railfanwindow.com
And because everyone's doing it....
SubwaySpot.com, because it's good for your health!
John, while I like the line about "their job is to protect the track," they are actually out there so we get them easily for Monday's rush. the switch that connects Brighton to CIY is out, so the put-ins either get laid up on the structure or go all the way to Whitehall and then back.
I saw him, but he didn't see me, so I took his picture..
I doubt he was a Subtalker, as (I hope) a Subtalker would know better and not use flash.
I was looking for you, it seems you were heading back to 57th street while I was coming down to Sheepshead. Then as I worked my way back towards Manhattan, you were coming back to Brighton.
BTW: The < Q > train on the express track are laid up due to a special (you-never-heard this one) G.O. dealing with the yard switches leading to Stillwell. Some S/B late evening trains end at Kings Highway for the LUs.
It seems you and Chris got the better of the storm. I was out there went it was winding down...
Damm papers due!
It's okay, I was on a crowded JFK shuttle bus going nowhere when the snow turned to rain.
(But your Brighton shots were fantastic. Looks like you made it there on time.)
I'm assigning grades tomorrow. Would you like me to assign you one as well?
I was out there at 2PM. I was writing papers all morning. While i was out there the snow was winding down, and then turned into that stinging freezing rain we all know and love!
Hmmm, maybe next time you should take AirTrain. Oh wait a minute, that'll cost you an extra $5.
It's not like the bus was going nowhere because of heavy traffic. (We were parked alongside the subway station for at least 25 minutes with no driver. Once we got moving, we zigzagged through the parking lot picking up nobody and zipped up the Nassau Expressway to the terminals.) The bus was overcrowded and infrequent because the Port Authority schedules the bus to be overcrowded and infrequent. The rational (and inexpensive) solution to a problem like that is to reschedule the bus -- not to build a gaudy rail line as an alternative to roads that aren't clogged, and then to charge some of its users (those who arrive by subway or live in the neighborhood) for the rides of others (those who arrive by car).
Every time I'm at Howard Beach, somebody excitedly mentions AirTrain. I point out the $5 fare, but only from this side of the fence, not over there (pointing into the parking lot). Invariably I'm asked if the shuttle bus will still be running; I point to the exit from the subway to the parking lot and answer that it will be closed, and that the only passage from the subway to the parking lot will be via the AirTrain turnstiles. Then the Port Authority insults begin. Funny, for all those Howard Beach travelers I've been assured are looking forward to AirTrain and its $5 fare, I haven't found a single one yet.
I know, I was just bustin' because I know how you "love" the new AirTrain arrangement. I figured you were on it for "one last ride".
Thanks.
This one should make you feel more at home:
I'm embarrased I have no snow shots from today. I'm in diesel territory, but I'm in walking distance to the tracks if I wanted to. I REALLY have to get out and take some "snow" photos one of these storms, I haven't taken any since stuff like this for years, subway or LIRR...since stuff like this was still running:
Got up at about 4:30 am, walked up to the train station and took the 5:39 train from Port Washington. 2 M7's were parked on tracks 3 and 4. One was #7016, a usual at PW. On track 2 was an M3, which ran the 5:39 run. Conducter looked like Jimmy from Law&Order. When we got into woodside, I was still tryin to figure out if I should take the 7 and F/B/D or the E and B/D. I stayed on. Got off at penn, ran over to the E. Came in about 5 min. I was about to get up at thinkin I was at the 7th av stop, but I learned that there was a stop at 50th st. lol. Finally got to 7th av, ran downstairs(now I know why my TTTP routing wouldn't have worked). Waited about 15 min for the B/D, I think it was a B that pulled in. It was only 6:45 am on a sat morn and that thing was already pretty full. Took it to Rockefeller Center.
When I got out I could hear Brooks&Dunn practicing Red Dirt Road. Went around, got into the outdoor area. Got a good spot to see, but then got an even better spot on the left side of the stage. The concert was awesome, and I got my pic taken...
http://www.partypics.com/wc.dll?partypics~order~10053624~6
frames 232-234. Yea, that's pathetic lil me, lol.
After the show I waited by the bands vans and town car. Suprised that no one else was there waiten for an autograph. Finally Ronnie Dunn came out, he signed my hat, then Kix Brooks came out and signed.
Went back to the subway, got on the D with a bunch of other people that were there. Switched at 7th Av to the E, damn i was waiten there long. Got to NYP, listened to some guy playin country(I think he was playin Johnny Cash-Ring of Fire) there and makin a few wise cracks( why is it that when a man talks dirty to a woman, it's called sexual harrasment, but when a woman talks dirty to a man it's a dollar 85 per hour?)
Got the 10:22 to PW. I think it was an M1. Got in on time. For the first time in a long time, it wasn't a painfully slow ride into the PW yard/station.
:)
I got it at their concert in New Jersey the summer before last, wore it on both NJT and LIRR. lol.
Your transfer at 7th Avenue was upstairs, both ways. (This is the first I've heard of anyone making that transfer.)
I hope you weren't in a rush. Next time walk the one block from 7th to 6th, either at 32nd or at 50th, and your trip will take a fraction of the time it did. Or just walk the entire way -- it's under a mile.
My Best Photo Album by Christopher Rivera
Its the garbage on the tracks and the decrepitness of the area that takes away from your composition :-(
Also enjoy some shots overall, where there's more to it than just the object that's center of attention. I agree w/you on one thing, that pic's hard on the eye, it has no object you automatically center on, you just wander.
And now i'm turning into some art museum critic, so i'll end with, good job :)
Its now:
(Once you publish a gallery, especially if youre inviting comments, which means that people are going to refer to your pictures, you shouldnt change the locations, at least not for a year or two!)
There's something about the elements in this picture I just love. I'm sure some of it is unintentional, like the people standing over there and such, but that baby is a work of art.
While it's true that subway/elevated service on the WillyB did not begin until 1908, it's still important to note this anniversary. If any bridge has been a true transit workhorse, it's the WillyB. Besides subways and els, it carried trolleys from its opening until December 1948, when the B39 bus took over (and of course still runs).
This scene looks nothing like this anymore as all of the former walkways have been completely removed, and rebuilt differently. The bridge is being repaired, and is in much better shape than just a few years ago. Are these recent observations that you had?
Why did they have to paint the metalwork on the walkways rhubarb though?
A tolled facility is not eligible for 80% federal funding under the Bridge Reconstruction Act. The WB will/has received in excess of 1/2 billion dollars for reconstruction/repair. Tolling would require refund of federal funds already spent.
New money cannot be obtained under the terms of the act for toll bridges. Old bridges that received money under the act cannot be tolled without the approval of the Secretary of Transportation. Historically, that approval has required full remittance of all federal monies spent.
The Manhattan Bridge suffered from putting the heavy train loads on the sides instead of center of the bridge, however, Lindenthal's original design was for an eye-bar link suspension design, which would have accounted for the odd loading. He was kicked off and an apprentice finished the job with the directive to use cables because they were the modern method and to flip the trolley tracks to the top to allow for subway trains instead of El connections.
--Mark
Although the original Dutch spelling of the actual street included the "k," I've never seen it appear on any station sign or transit map.
Does anyone know if the "k" was ever on the station?
Thanks.
Bob Sklar
1PublicServiceAnnouncement9
Orange Line (Dudley-Everett Main Line 'el') in Boston beats that hands down.
AEM7
Bill...(Clinton) !
So far, B-branch and C-branch is cleared. D-branch and E-branch are not yet cleared, although D-branch is used for deadhead moves.
Riding in the middle "C" section is fun. You can feel the truck lurching around. They seem to be doing pretty well in snow. I like the AC whine, sounds like a Networker.
AEM7
But, will they continue?
Considering past performance, I'd say not.
I believe the digital display is LCD. It would be much clearer if it was LED. -Nick
Let's try to think around the issues and make this board more intelligent and informed with respect to transit's final mission: moving the most number of people from where they are to where they want to go, as efficiently as possible.
AEM7
AEM7
God I miss Boston...
--Z--
A direct link between Italy and Sicily (bridge or tunnel);
A rail tunnel between Staten Island and Manhattan (extension of the SAS, if ever built?).
Any comments or additional dreamt-of future rail links via tunnels or bridges?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3317149.stm
Though I don't think the proposed service from Northern Scotland to Casablanca will ever become a reality...
In Russia the track have to be re-construct smaller (to 1435mm) and for
high speed and a new High Speed Line have to be build in Africa. :-)
: )
Mark
Mark
A Straits of Messina Bridge was authorised in July 2002. You can read all about the project here (.pdf link).
Any comments or additional dreamt-of future rail links via tunnels or bridges?
Stranraer to Belfast. :-D
"The train now standing at platform 5 is the 1030 to Belfast Central, calling at Rugby, Stafford, Crewe, Warrington Bank Quay, Wigan North Western, Preston, Lancaster, Oxenholme for the Lake District, Penrith, Carlisle, Dumfries, Stranraer, Belfast Great Victoria St and Belfast Central."
Oops... forgot the "http://".
This will work.
This is no fantasy - a bridge is planned. (Highway+Railway)
Silvio Berlusconi wants it and so they start planning. It's only a
question when they begin the construction.
Critic are warning, that an earthquake could damage or destroy it
on day. I'm no geologist and don't know much about the area, but
what i've heard i think the critics are right.
If we're talking plate boundaries here, wouldn't the Spanish/Morroccan tunnel have this problem too?
Mark
Dreaming is fun.
Mark
"A new $7 million train station in Edinburgh, Scotland, has people on the go - but they can't go, because the facility was built without a single bathroom.
[It] is not just silly, but actually shameful said Kenny MacAskill of the Scottish National Party"
Mark
Well, the idea was that this would be the first of three wings to the building, and the a the plumbing would be in the central or main part of the building "to be built later".
The pope was not amused, and so we modified the plans, which of course was a good thing, because like the IND second system, it was never built.
Indeed that part that was built did not even have adequate stairways, just two temporary arrangements, one of which was removed when a new building was built. (not the one planned, but a different one, now since demolished anyway).
When that new building was to be demolished, they wanted to remove all of it, but I told them that the stairway had to remain, because the library building had to have two stairways. They hemed and hawed a bit about this, but the archetect set them straight, "Yes, the stairway had to remain."
So even in this day in age, priests who design buildings still need a frewuent foot in the butt.
Elias
That's right. Little wet tracks leading up the stairs and to the McDonald's on the corner.
: )- Elias
O.K., it's good for a laugh at the Scots, but actually this isn't a major station. It's a new commuter station to serve a business park on the outskirts of Edinburgh. Seven million doesn't actually buy you that much of a station - the new PATH WTC *temporary* station cost forty times as much. Does every MNRR or LIRR station have restrooms? Not every British suburban station does - and I *know* how few NYC subway stations have usable ones!
Agreed.
Seven million doesn't actually buy you that much of a station
It must buy a lot more than is ultimately necessary or there's been a hell of a lot of inflation in the last year in the grim North. Last year, Beauly station (also in Scotland) opened. It cost 250,000 (about $400,000).
You may be amused to hear that Beauly station doesn't have any lavatories either.
I think the cost for Edinburgh Park includes a large parking facility, full disabled access, a footbridge across the line, as well as additional signalling work to address capacity concerns. There may even be a turnback there and the associated signalling work. A lot of the cost is probably in land acquisition, versus Beauly where all you needed is to buy a strip from a sheep farmer. Beauly is a single-platform, single-track station in dark territory with no parking and minimal signage.
I was surprised to see that the spur to Newcraighall has re-opened.
AEM7
Beauly's got a car park too.
full disabled access,
Doesn't the DDA require that?
a footbridge across the line,
It must be the most expensive footbridge on Earth. (Okay Beauly doesn't have one of those - it's on a single track line).
as well as additional signalling work to address capacity concerns.
I know that's expensive, but the price given is ridiculous.
A lot of the cost is probably in land acquisition
I thought this station was on a business park and the business park themselves had requested it. If anything the business park involved should be paying BR for their station.
Now, be thankful that most of you are male. When you have to wait on line with 20 females before you, some with children, then you about die when you find out there are only 5 stalls working, it really sucks. And you guys just breeze in and out of there, laughing at us as you walk by.
GCT is usual hoppin', especially during rush hour. Not only does it have commuters, but shoppers and food patrons as well. I think I can safely say that many times it's much busier than Penn Station, at least the LIRR part, yet the Penn Station bathrooms probably have twice (or even more) the capacity of GCT.
I'm a firm supporter of that 2:1 female:male bathroom proposal :)
Getting of my disgruntled female soapbox now... :D
If it makes you feel any better, I've seen many establishments that lock the mens' rooms permanently. Some don't bother to clean theirs or put in any of the bare necessities, such as toilet paper or running water. A store manager I approached regarding this very transgression stated that the cleaners are instructed not to do the mens' rooms, because it "makes them too attractive to the wrong element."
Men aren't even supposed to HAVE to go to the bathroom. We're just supposed to deal with it- or go behind a tree.
That is not equal, and sexual discrimination is prohibited by law.
AEM7
Mark
The discussion regarding "pee standing up" has already been posted to this board, and I will not repeat that discussion.
The solution, I believe, is to have co-ed bathrooms that have individual cubicles of higher segregation than currently employed. This is already the case in many cafes where each bathroom has a single lockable door and a single excretion disposal device.
AEM7
I went to the women's bathroom one time. These were not the usual party bathrooms, but rather single person units. I found it absurd that if they were single person units it would matter. I wasn't about to wait for the men's bathroom to become available.
Are you kidding me! We'll NEVER hear the end of the thread; "And they leave the seats up."
Sheesh... What you be thinking, eh?
Elias :^)
But these codes were not even a gleam in the politician's eyes when the subways were built.
Elias
Maybe women's restrooms wouldn't be so crowded if women stopped using them as social centers :)
Sounds more like the women's room to me! haha
I've just learned to put up with it, and take it like a man...:-P
When you were how old, twenty :)
But then you have men's restrooms with the sports pages posted on the wall in front of the urinals, so guys can catch up on yesterday's games while draining the weasel.
Better yet, have you ever gone to ESPN Zone in Times Square? Each urinal has a little TV above it. The stalls also each have a little TV, and the sinks have TV's above them.
TO keep this on topic, ESPN Zone also has subway-like mosaics depicting name tablets depicting NYC location names in the bathrooms and outside the bathroom areas.
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
No Marie Curie? No Amelia Earhart? No Hillary?
www.forgotten-ny.com
It is really fun when I attend a nursing convention in a hotel. 1000 female nurses, and 5 male nurses.
Actually, they rent a room, and designate that as the "mens" room, and then re-lable all the others for women.
Elias
Probably cigars, a man's smoke.
Seriously though, I would assume that when they designed Grand Central Station there was probably a very small percentage of women in the workplace and so they were pretty liberal in assigning the same amount of stalls for both sexes.
Building standards now require a larger women's bathroom with more stalls, based on the fact that all the gals need to sit down.
I'm amazed, however, that anyone would enter a bathroom at GCT. Last time I was there was 19 or so years ago, and I haven't been back! When in the area, I'd hit the restroom at the big research library on 6th and 42nd. Very civilized.
The same can be said for the Port Authority Bus Terminal. The bathroom there is just OK. I can imagine it was a horror in the past.
The one on the platforms by Martz Bus are just fine. Every time I've been there an attendant never seemed to be too far a way. Looks like they keep an eye on such things there.
I think America is getting ready for the old European model, of attended bathrooms.
Elias
While I am a strong believer in the dignity of labor, and generally abhor dependence on public assistance, I can say without the slightest hesitation that being on welfare is infinitely preferable to working as a train or bus station restroom attendant.
I found an article about the new bathrooms over at railfan.net.
http://www.railfan.net/lists/rshsdepot-digest/200301/msg00075.html
If you're in Grand Central area and want a classy restroom, go into the Grand Hyatt, right next door to Grand Central. Go up the escalator and follow the signs to the restrooms. A much finer ambience than GCT.
This is by far the best option. If you have extra time to kill before your train leaves, you can lounge around in the lobby area. And you don't even have to walk outside to go between the hotel and GCT since there's an indoor connecting corridor.
Couple thoughts -Whenever I see the GCT Mens Room crowded with a line of anxious commuters waiting, I always hope and pray NO ONE will do what they do at Yankee Stadium after the game is over -use the sinks ;-(
Second, like a lot of guys no way could I use a coed Rest Room at, ummm certain times let's say. Several buddies have agreed they too would fear emerging from a stall after a noisy, aromatic 'event' only to come face to face with some pretty young thing regarding them with a mixture of pity and disgust. Man, the shame!!! Heh heh
I have! Could you imagine? If Debbie in accounting... The horror!!
;-O
Denying the railroad's bid for a preliminary injunction prohibiting the stoppage, Judge James Robertson of the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia rejected Amtrak's assertion that the real reason behind the planned work stoppage--which the railroad calls a "strike"--is "union muscle-flexing" designed to gain a strategic advantage in ongoing negotiations over new collective bargaining agreements. Acknowledging that "it is indeed possible that a measure of the truth lies on both sides," Robertson nonetheless found that Amtrak failed to rebut the unions' argument that their dispute was with Congress and the White House, rather than with the railroad. Therefore, the dispute resolution procedures of the Railway Labor Act were not triggered, the court found, refusing to enjoin the work stoppage.
While Unions Consider Next Move, Amtrak Appeals
According to the unions, which include the Transport Workers Union of America, the Brotherhood of Maintenance of Way Employes, the Service Employees International Union's National Council of Firemen and Oilers, and the Hotel Employees and Restaurant Employees International Union, they will meet the week of Dec. 22 in Washington, D.C.,to considered their next move. Amtrak, meanwhile, is appealing the ruling.
The dispute started in September, when the unions announced at a rally that there would be a work stoppage Oct. 3, 2003, to draw attention to the level of federal funding needed to operate the railroad safely. The unions were prompted by an advisory issued by
Amtrak stating that any subsidy less than $1.8 billion would threaten
continued safe operations of the train system.
Amtrak moved for a temporary restraining order, and the parties agreed that the work stoppage could be postponed to permit the court to consider the issue (191 DLR A-13, 10/2/03). In the meantime, a congressional conference committee in November approved a $1.22 billion subsidy for fiscal year 2004, $600 million less than the "bare
bones" minimum Amtrak said was necessary, the court recounted. In reaching its decision, the court observed that a "one-day work stoppage now, during the holiday season, would be even more devastating than it would have been on October 3, 2003, as originally
planned."
Central Dispute Involves Applicability of RLA
The central dispute in this matter, the court said, is the applicability of the Railway Labor Act. If the RLA applies, an injunction should issue against the work stoppage because such a
stoppage would disrupt operation of the railroad. If it does not apply, the Norris-LaGuardia Act, which severely restricts injunctions in labor disputes, would make the issuance of an injunction "virtually impossible,"the court said.
Under the RLA, it is the duty of carriers and their employees to make every effort to settle disputes so as not to interfere with the operation of the carrier. A central purpose of the law is to prevent strikes by establishing procedures for channeling disputes into a dispute resolution process, the court said.
The unions contended that the RLA did not apply here because the dispute giving rise to the planned work stoppage is not between them and Amtrak, but between the unions and Congress and the president. The purpose of the work stoppage would be to draw attention to safety issues before accidents happen, they said.
Amtrak responded to that argument with a "raised eyebrow," the court observed. The railroad contended that the unions' claim of a political motive was pretextual, and that they instead intend to gain a strategic advantage in collective bargaining agreement negotiations. Amtrak added that the conference committee decision "mooted" the union's stated purpose.
The unions denied that the work stoppage was aimed at the collective bargaining process, although at least one union witness acknowledged frustration with the pace of negotiations and concern that Amtrak would reduce labor costs as a result of the conference committee's decision.
Labor Issues Central, Amtrak Says
Even if the union's political purpose was accepted, the railroad said, the employee-employer relationship was still at the heart of the matter. In support of its argument, Amtrak looked to a 1982
Supreme Court ruling broadly interpreting the term "labor dispute" as it appears in the Norris-LaGuardia Act and the National Labor Relations Act (Jacksonville Bulk Terminals v. International Longshoremen's Ass'n, 457 U.S. 702 (1982)).
Rejecting that argument, the court found that no other court "has said that the RLA's coverage of disputes 'between the carrier and the employees' is as broad as the term 'labor dispute' found in the [Norris-LaGuardia Act] and the NLRA."
In the end, the court said, Amtrak was unable to rebut the unions' showing that the basis of the stoppage was unrelated to any dispute with the carrier. "To be sure, the unions' 'legitimate unrelated basis' case is significantly weaker today than it was at the end of September, when the issue of [fiscal year] 2004 funding was still undecided, but their stated purpose of bringing the attention of Congress and the public to the ongoing plight of Amtrak is still more than plausible, and it has not been shown to be pretextual," the court concluded.
It was LRV 2014 operating westbound under its own power. Sorry no photos but I'll carry the camera the rest of the week and see what I can get.
I hope so. It's tiresome to have to keep calling it the HHLR :)
http://www.njtransit.com/ne_pressrelease.jsp?PRESS_RELEASE_ID=841
Metro today releases its much-awaited plan for revamping the area's mass transit system from a city-oriented bus service to a multimode system complete with light rail, street cars and transfer stations throughout southwest Ohio.
For the first time, the plan includes specifics on a light rail plan for the entire region, beyond the Interstate 71 corridor and into Kentucky and Indiana.
The entire light rail system including lines in Northern Kentucky would be finished by 2031, according to the report. The proposal is projected to cost $2.6 billion in Hamilton County alone.
...
Welcome to Cincinnati Light Rail
The merits and faults of the plan aside, this has to be the coolest website for a transit proposal I've ever seen.
Personally, I'd like to see the airport line become a reality since I often fly through Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky and it'd be nice to ride into town during layovers. I also hope some good planning will be carried out along with the rail planto foster the dense kind of development that makes rail transit viable. Having seen the Cincinnati metro area from the air more times than I can remember I can say that it is mostly low-density sprawl. What's more, there isn't much downtown in the way of residences and stores that one sees with wel-planned downtowns. That would have to accompany the rail system for it to have its greatest impact. Else they'll end up like St. Louis, with a great rail system but nothing downtown to ride to on it.
Mark
Cincinnati actually has a beautiful downtown with an outside chance of surviving if the neanderthals in charge don't keep doing all the wrong things, and they can get housing downtown, and they repeal the anti-gay charter amendment and get young people to stop moving out (THAT made the front page of USA today). But they probably shouldn't push light rail until the Feds are likely to come through. What'll that be --- eight years? Hillary for president? I joked to my friends that Cincinnati looks like Elizabeth, N.J. from the air.
Neat use of Flash, lacking in information. In other words nice code, shame about the content.
--Mark
State, county and local officials in eastern Montgomery County voiced their opposition last week to the Bi-County Transitway, calling instead for state transportation planners to revive the Purple Line.
At a press conference Sept. 16 in Silver Spring, members of the Dist. 20 General Assembly delegation joined Takoma Park's two county councilmen and a city councilman to protest several of the transitway's suggested alignments, including a proposal to construct a bus rapid transit line along the heavily congested Maryland Route 410. The highway is known as Philadelphia and Ethan Allen avenues within the Takoma Park limits.
"It strikes me as bizarre that one of the new alternatives on the table now is the East West Highway option," said Takoma Park City Councilman Bruce Williams (Ward 3). "I think that would result in an unfunded mandate for the City of Takoma Park if that were to happen because we would have to dedicate a good portion of our police force to providing police cars with sirens for getting those buses through the city rapidly. It's the only way they would get through the city rapidly."
...
So at Times Square, the renovations on the Seventh Avenue Line platform seem just about complete (unlike in much of the rest of the station, where they seem just about stalled). However, on the main 42nd Street Mezzanine, just at the bottom of the little 5-step stairway separating the Shuttle area and the 7th Av area, you can see behind the blue construction wall a sign pointing the way to a handicap-accesible exit and access to the 1,2,3,9.
As far as I can tell from having spent far too much of my life on the Times Square platform of the 1,2,3,9, there is nowhere left to put an elevator unless they are planning to do major additional work to the platform, and yet the subway map claims that Times Square is handicap-accessible (though admittedly not specifically that the 1,2,3,9 is accesible) even over 72nd street, whose elevators recently opened as the renovations there wrap up. Does anybody know what's going on with this?
I think the platform elevators are going to be in the middle of the 41st Street mezzanine. Why did they finish both the platform and the mezzanine in the area? I'm as stumped as the next guy.
Oh, wait a second. Maybe the NB elevator is going somewhere in the wide passageway between 41st and 42nd (near the new staircase to the platform) and the SB elevator is going near the new street entrance on the west side of 7th (across from the dual Flushing escalators).
It's possible, though unlikely, that only one elevator will reach the upper mezzanine.
Back in 2001, there was a boarded up work area in the middle of that mezzanine. I assumed elevators were being installed, but one day the boards were gone and there was nothing in their place.
Not ADA-related, but I still think that connecting the two 40th Street mezzanines would seriously reduce (over)crowding at the north end of the NB IRT platform and of the trains themselves.
You might be seeing the beginning of work on the new connection with the Flushing mezzanine. The documents I've seen have all implied that the connection would only be to the SB BMT platform; I'm now optimistic that perhaps they were in error.
Is this not illegal, considering that "The Map" is free? And the shipping - $4 in most cases - is astronomical! For sure, it doesn't cost that much to send a map in the mail... it's not like "The Map" is that lofty.
Depending on the amount of maps the guy sells, he must be making a pretty penny.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The MTA won't do much, if anything, since this is a "small potatoes" issue. It would cost them more to handle legally than the situation is worth. Besides, in spite of that being ebay, not too many people are foolish enough to bid.
It's a shame that eBay spends so much time regulating their buyers, and not enough time regulating their sellers.
Arti
Arti
What about people from out of town? Will the MTA ship there, and if so how many? NYC is trendy right now, and so is the subway.
Arti
Dear MTA people,
Please be sending me copy of your subway map. I would also be liking a guide to all your tracks and switches. These will be useful in my work. Thanks to you so kindly.
SASE is enclosed. You can send these to General Delivery, Peshawar, Pakistan. Thanking you again.
Very truly yours,
O. B. Laden
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
(On a sidenote, good luck on finals Amanda!)
-Adam (grad student at SJU Queens)
(enynova5205@aol.com)
But y'know, there is an art to making the perfect snowball, so perhaps that's not too bad ;)
Thank you, and good luck on your finals too! (Do you have them as a grad student, or do you *gasp* have a disseration to write?)
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
I, for one, wish MORE people sold their city's transit maps online.
It can be difficult to get them. I don't know if New York mails them out to anyone who asks for one, but if they do, then this guy is SAVING the MTA money in postage. Who cares if people choose to spend less than $5 for a map that is free and easy to get for New Yorkers. I wouldn't think his buyers would be New Yorkers, but people in other cities that either are planning a trip to New York, like New York items, or collect subway maps.
In my opinion, he's doing nothing wrong, and is actually providing a service I wish people in more cities provided.
BTW, why do you are what this guy sells? People will either not buy it, and thus this guy is just giving money to e-bay in terms of listing fees or will buy it and receive something that they value at or less than the closing price.
You value The Map because the supply here in NYC is very plentiful. Someone not in NYC would value it much much more because the supply is so low.
Honest sellers can achieve the same goal by setting a higher minimum bid or reserve.
IMO, eBay should require that minimal shipping (for somebody living nearby who doesn't request priority mail or insurance or any other extras) be included in the bid.
This is impractical as many products would NEVER be shipped using "minimal shipping" whether the buyer wants to or not.
In addition, price of item and shipping cost are not proportional.
How do you figure? By definition, "minimal shipping" is an option to any buyer living in the relevant location. For many if not most products sold on eBay, the typical buyer would choose this option.
In addition, price of item and shipping cost are not proportional.
Who said they were?
Whichever way you look at it, he's selling a free item for his own profit, whether he makes that profit through shipping or a higher minimum bid.
And I don't understand [people]will buy it and receive something that they value at or less than the closing price. They're not receiving it at or less than the closing price... they're paying a lot in unneeded shipping. Insurance my ass.
Quite a bit of stuff sold on eBay computer auctions can be obtained for free in NYC (next to your garbage dumpster :-)
Arti
That's New York.
Arti
Actually, no one has said yet whether MTA provides this service...
If you call the information line, they will end you whatever maps you desire. If you send them a written request they will do the same (they prefer that a SASE be enclosed with enough postage).
The sellers on ebay are taking advantage of the lack of knowledge on the part of some buyers.
If you think the selling of a regular map is bad just wait until the Centennial Map is issued in January.
The first is on the S Franklin Ave Shuttle, but i want to see if i could get through the tunnel where the Malbone St wreck was, all the times i've tried on my own, the prospect park bound train crossed over before the tunnel.
The second is a far-rock/rock-park/lefferts combo. I was wondering if you know when 32s or 38s run there so i can get a good railfan window the whole way out instead of having to peek through a tiny hole in the front thats usually convered with newspaper anyway.
thanks a lot,
-Jeff
No, that tunnel is not in revenue service. I'm told that fan trips have used it in recent times but I haven't personally ridden any of the ones that did.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
--Mark
--Mark
As for the A, there doesn't seem to be any pattern of when R-32's and R-38's show up. Just wait and hope. The Rock Park shuttle only runs R-44's.
The trick is to wait at Botanic Garden for the train to come in at the appointed time. In the meantime I will get a sampling each night as to the scheduled time the train arrives at PP on the Malbone side. I rode that train on occasion but not lately.
Don't go out of your way, please. If you say it happens, I believe you.
-Jeff
There you go, 10:50 it comes into Malbone tunnel.
The trick is to ASK the M/M if he is going OOS at PP.
Elias
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
That is 1 sweet service she provides to ease your worry.
Were these ever used? What was the access to them and does any trace of that access remain today?
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
A remnant of the uptown local platform is still there at Dyre Avenue.
They used only one (uptown), if memory serves me right. It would probably still be in use, were it not for a hurricane.
Pelham Bay Park on the 6 line.
241st Street/WPR station
Lov-V at Woodlawn
At the terminal, let the people off on the side platforms, then let new passengers on from the center island platform. '
Also by discharging passaengers onto the side platforms, it was easier to close down the train in order to lay it up (you didn't have to worry about people trying to get on).
"They date back to the original construction of course, and I guess [they thought] that ridership would be much higher than it is now."
Trains Dump to 1 side before opening up the other for boarding...
(Disclaimer: Geese DON'T always board from the proper/same side tho.)
I would think GCT and 72nd didn't qualify since they're not "Terminals" terminals. (Tho GCT sometimes *BEGS* to need a side platter).
As Kool-D pointed out, the TERMINALS (alone) tend to have this structure.
Right, and I agree with that, but Aside from Brooklyn Bridge being a terminal, the other stations that got express platforms on the original 1904 subway (14th and 96th) aren't terminals.
(I know the local platforms at 14th, 96th, and BB aren't exactly the same thing as the "local" platforms at the terminals, the real reason for this thread, they are similar ideas).
If (and ONLY if) the train arrives on M track.
[(Disclaimer: Geese DON'T always board from the proper/same side tho.) ]
What they should do is open on the side OPPOSITE of the side that the next train is on. If the train on M track is the next train, open facing platform 2, and then open the platform 1 side after the majority of the pax leave. Leaving, the doors close in the opposite order.
VCP and PBP tend to bear slight resemblance to a running-of-the-bulls
if you stand on the platform at precise times during the rush hours..
If you have Brian Cuday's book Under the Sidewalks of New York, there is an old photo somewhere in there from before the renovation at 137th showing the old 1930's tile encasings.
The quality of the scan is poor because unfortunately, the version of the book I have is printed on regular paper, as opposed to "photo quality" paper. It's a good book though just the same.
Double kudos to Chris for that pic & info.
Restricted clearance? I dunno, 33rd St is not that much more restricted than most stations in the system. Many of the newer designed stations don't even have columns near the tracks. I'm sure if they can, they do avoid that in modern station design.
BTW, if you mean 137th and not 33rd, I'm sure they would not cover the columns with such a large covering now (it was the 80's when they did that), because it does hinder passage between the tracks and the pillars, and people can easily hide behind them, which could be a safety issue. I wonder if they are metal, if the old 1930's tile encased columns are still underneath those monstrosities at 137th St. Anyone remember from when they were renovating the station in the 80's if they removed the tiles or just covered over them? They are large enough that the old columns could still be underneath.
It was done during a renovation, apparently for decorative purposes.
Try punching 1.
Don't FEEL quite much at all like metal to me, brah...
A McDonald's feeding the college crowd directly above fare control.
: >
Is this true?
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
I don't know if they used the left handed sockets in later years because on elevated platforms the bulbs would be stolen.
I know they used reverse threads on the emergency light bulbs in LoVs because since they were off most of the time there was a temptation to steal them.
I did hear that on the early IND cars, only the emergency bulbs were reverse threaded to prevent these cold bulbs from getting stolen. I believe the regular bulbs had regular threads because they would be hot (on) so less likely to be stolen.
I have never heard of this before, are you sure about that? I thought if the voltage rating was a match either AC or DC would light it.
If the RMS AC voltage and DC voltage match, the light works.
600V strings - so the whole lighting system was insulated for 600V, and could potentially be floating at a few hundred volts? Yikes. I'm guessing rather small fuses on here, I'd hate to want to see a short near the higher end of it and no fusing...
The battery bulbs are left-threaded, but not to prevent theft
(they wouldn't work at home since they are rated at 40 V).
Because they look similar to the other two kinds of bulbs,
were they not reverse-threaded, maintenance workers might have
mixed them up. Putting a battery bulb into the string-of-5
circuit would quickly burn out the bulb and leave the string dark.
More insidious would be putting a battery bulb into the main
lighting string of 20. Because the voltage ratings are close,
the bulb would light up. It would be a bit dim, and then when
it burned out, it would not self-short, and the entire string
of 20 would go dark. That's why it was felt necessary to mechanically
prevent mixing up the bulbs.
So what is the R-9 circuit?
Elias
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
Regards,
Jimmy
The current ones used for the subway are either 36 or 56 watts and rated at 130 volts. They use a heavy duty filament to compensate for the various voltage fluctuations. Ordinary light bulbs wouldn't last that long. Funny since they are classified as "street railway" light bulbs, when NYC hasn't had any street cars running since 1957.
Bill "Newkirk"
Question of justice divides village
Somali refugee found acclaim, then trouble, in Maine resort
By Brian MacQuarrie, Globe Staff, 12/15/2003
RANGELEY, Maine -- When Abdalahi Shakur Abdi, a teenage Somali refugee, moved to this remote mountain village last year, he quickly became a popular student at the overwhelmingly white high school. His all-state soccer skills rocketed the team to the conference championship, pupils chanted his name in the corridors, and the spectacular views at this lakeside resort made Abdi believe he had found the American dream.
One year later, Abdi's dream became a nightmare of multiple rape charges. But whether Abdi brought the nightmare to Rangeley, or whether he was its naive victim, depends on the source in a case described by its prosecutor as the most bizarre he has ever handled. "You charge him with rape, and it's, `Let's make him mayor,' " said Andrew Robinson, the Franklin County prosecutor. "I'd never heard that."
etc...
GUILTY AS SIN!!!
Those college students would probably raise money for Saddam's defense!!
Another proposal to replace the Bronx D with the Q also went nowhere due to long (1933) association between the Concourse and the D train.
There are other indelible line/route associations that seem to have taken hold over the years, mostly on the IND- thanks to that division assigning letter designations to its routes from inception. BMT letters didn't start until 1960 at which point the names of the lines had been ingrained for up to fifty years.
Although the IRT started carrying route numbers on train bulkheads since 1948, those numbers really didn't enter speech the most part until the seventies. In fact, IRT side sign rolls never even showed the route number until the Great 1979 Route Recoloring, just "7TH AVENUE EXPRESS, LEXINGTON AVENUE LOCAL", or on the Flushing line, "LOCAL", "EXPRESS" or a directional arrow combination. There were some isolated appearance of 1967-era colored route bullets on some IRT bulkheads.
-Since 1933, the B-Q Crosstown as the G. Many oldtimers still call it the GG.
-Since at least 1933, the E train with Queens Boulevard, later Jamaica. Many people resisted the 1988 diversion to Archer because of the E/Hillside association. The F association is just as strong, especially with it being the sole Hillside service. Two years after its diversion to 63rd Street, people still can't separate the F from 53rd Street in their minds.
-Since 1956, Far Rockaway service as the A. The off-peak shuttles to either Far Rock or Rock Park became pretty well-known as the HH, even though the trains themselves were often signed as the C, E or even S.
-Since 1960, the 4th Avenue local, especially to Bay Ridge as the R. Likewise, the Sea Beach as the N. The other end of the N has become fairly strongly identified as the Astoria line.
-Since 1967, the Culver el as the F. It had been the D train since 1954, but locals say that during that time, the Culver name was still heavily used.
-From 1967 to 2001, the West End as the B and the Brighton as the D respectively. These designations caught on the way the T and Q never did, perhaps because they had only been established seven years earlier. It's going to be VERY bizarre to get used to the lines and designations being switched in February.
-Technically since 1973, the Jamaica line as J. There was much confusion in 1967 and '68 with the JJ, QJ and RJ filling the various service roles, so the 'Jamaica el' or Broadway Brooklyn' name stuck around. Many 1/9s and 27/30s never replaced their bulkhead signs, so the QJ designation persisted until for many years- in some cases until those cars' retirements.
Somehow, you don't hear many people refer to the L or M, whose respective lines names still endure.
As for the IRT, only the 7 really has become an enduring icon in lieu of 'The Flushing Line', perhaps due to its international fame as line for immigrants and Met fans. To somewhat less of an extent, the 4 and 6 have become reflexively associated with their respective Bronx elevated lines- which have had as historically strong name recognition as the BMT Southern Division lines.
And you always can pick out a non-New Yorker if they refer to the line connecting Grand Central and Times Square as the S. We Noo Yawkers only have to say 'da shuttle'. The S in Brooklyn is invariably 'da Franklin'.
I'll offer that the north-south Manhattan local trunk routes of the IRT are thought of differently:
On the west side, most people say, "I'll take the one-and-nine."
On the east side, they say, "I'll take the Lex."
Of course on the BMT trunk route, it's the "N-and-R." I wonder if it will be viewed differently after February's Manny-B service change, when the local becomes the "R-and-W"?
It already should be viewed differently! It's the N, Q, R and W. Once one of my former co-workers called it the "N and R" and I immediately corrected him and called it "N, R, Q and W". Maybe some folks are still used to the old local-only service on Broadway and still have a hard time believing there's express service on Broadway. Even the service advisory posters on that alerted passengers that the Q would be running weekends through the Rathole, called it the "N/R". Hello? The N doesn't even run there on weekends.
I'll never call it "the 1 and 9"! To me it will always be the 1.
I believe they also sold a "train controller" for about US$170 up until a year ago that connected to a computer's serial port.
The controller has probably switched to USB by now. Serial ports were quickly becoming obsolete in Japan when I went there.
One train I would like to try is the Keihin Kyuuko Electric Railway's rapid express. 120kph running in an urban area with lots of grade crossings and passing JR trains running at 100kph next to it. I believe there are BVE layouts for that line too.
Looked for BVE routes for that line, found nothing that I could tell, at least in English, but definitely sounds interesting. That's something I haven't had much time for lately either. I hope Mackoy works up a USB controller input for the next BVE - the one that connected to the serial port is still supported for it, though I haven't seen any signs of that in a couple of years now ...
BVE "scene" seems a bit quiet lately. :(
I also realised that BVE supports TS controller(serial) but not "Densha de go"'s USB controllers which work on PS2 only.
I've written to Mackoy to suggest the USB support for the Densha controller and to ask a few questions such as supporting NYCTA style "tripping" on an overrun but alas, have never heard back from him.
I was pleasantly surprised to discover that a USB joystick worked just fine with it, so very likely that's how it was gotten around. Given that he codes in Visual basic, there isn't much leeway to hack his EXE to accomplish the task.
"I'm just takin' a local on the 14th Street Canarsie Line"
"I'm in a Ridgewood state of mind ... "
As a long time Flushing resident, I still have to stop myself from referring to it as the Flushing-IRT, as opposed to the the Flushing-BMT.
(In fact, IRT side sign rolls never even showed the route number until the Great 1979 Route Recoloring, just "7TH AVENUE EXPRESS, LEXINGTON AVENUE LOCAL", or on the Flushing line, "LOCAL", "EXPRESS" or a directional arrow combination. There were some isolated appearance of 1967-era colored route bullets on some IRT bulkheads.)
Which was a big mistake on the part of the TA. They ordered pre-1967 colored signs for the BMT/IND lines, why couldn't they do the same for the IRT lines?
As a former Astoria resident at that time, I can tell you the RR was in fact identified with Astoria by residents. But then the MTA went and swapped the RR/R with the N, so that undid everything.
A quote from the article:
Antonio Goring, a JetBlue customer service representative from Harlem, said a one-seat ride from Manhattan certainly would have been his first choice.
But he wasn't complaining. Goring, 25, has had to take the A train to Howard Beach and then transfer to a crowded shuttle bus. "It's better than nothing and it's appreciated," he said of the new service. "Hopefully, it works out."
My comment: Does Tony know he'll be paying $40 a month more to commute to work now? I think he should have a talk with David of Broadway.
However, while the PFC looks like just another ticket surcharge to passengers, there are some well-defined constraints on how this particular $3/ticket surcharge can be used. The way I understand PFCs, they can only be used for on-airport capital improvements. It would surprise me if the PA were allowed to use PFCs indefinitely for funding ongoing AirTrain operational costs.
Likewise the same with Sutphin on the E
I would doubt it. Just about the only people who would buy the cards are airport or airline employees, who probably have heard through their employers about the procedures for getting them.
David of Broadway then asked: "How did Robert Moses make the Howard Beach leg expensive?" And it was about there I joined the conversation. I explained that it cost more to build a rail line over the Expressway then it would have to build a railway under it.
David
Now I want subway access to JFK as much as anyone, but JFK shouldn't have highway access? What should it be a two lane road to the airport instead of a highway?
Only the portion of the Van Wyck north of the Grand Central was built for the fair. The portion south of the GCP was there for many years earlier.
(assuming the trip GO stays unchanged since last posted)
Sunday MOD Route
See what a little tuna does for the brain!
I sure hope no GO's affect our ride on Track Y3 of the Dyre Ave line.
I even see what a little 5am tuna does for a certain lucky ducky hippo on the D...
lol :P
They have had a booth in the past.
Correction: February 7 & 8.
They gave me a wrong date on a Freeport event last year. I got there to find out it had happened the previous week-end :-(
It was originally scheduled for 1/31-2/1. The show was pushed up a week to avoid competition with the Stooper Bowl.
til next time
Chuck Greene
Koi
Chuck Greene
Could such an arrangement work today?
If going the wrong way were a ticketable offense.
Exactly... prominent signage and visible police presence would work.
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
How do they know? They can read. The illiterate people follow the crowds.
If the police are called away, they wouldn't be a visible presence, would they?
I doubt anyone would try to pull off so complicated a plot simply to go down the wrong side of a staircase.
Lots of IND stations and a few others (particularly in Brooklyn, I've noticed) still have little up and down arrows on the stairs and signs that effectively tell people to keep right, a trick they should be (but rarely are) able to master without guidance. These signs are often also ignored, especially when a flood of people get off a train and all want to get up without caring about the relatively few who may want to go down.
I think the only type of stair where you're going to see people all moving in one direction is an escalator.
In those cases, clearly the spare capacity should be used to benefit the majority. People who want to go down will have to wait until the "mob" has cleared. It is not efficient to reserve half the space for a few people
Peak-direction contraflow lanes should be used. On a typical four-aisle staircase (two and two, separated by a handrail) in CBDs, three would be up and one down in the AM, three down and one up in the PM, and two up, two down in the off-peak. The reverse would be true in non-CBD areas.
And its unfair to make a person miss their train because of a "mob". During the day its not a big deal but at night on a 20 min headway, stations like Woodhaven Blvd/Queens Blvd and Main St still suffer from a large crowd at times and some unfortunate souls are forced to wait 15 to 20 minutes depending on what train they missed (IIRC the G arrives 5 minutes after the E or vice versa, leaving waits 15-5).
But the mob are transferring to buses. If the "mob" is delayed and as a result the bus departs, the mob could be waiting for 30 minutes or longer. Therefore even if you take into account of the expected waiting time, the benefit for the mob is much greater than the disbenefits for that one person going downstairs.
AEM7
My experience with rush-hour Lex local.
Arti
The station then should be exit only during rush hours. AEM7
Condition described by D o B appplies to Lex and making those stations (68th 77th) exit-only is impossible.
Arti
Christopher St PATH?
Fairmount Avenue (and probably other stations, too) on SEPTA's Broad Street line is exit-only on Sundays, despite (or, more likely, because) ridership is close to zero.
Also, the subway is partially funded by taxes, so NYCT has an obligation to make it available to taxpayers. I don't think PATH receives tax funding, so the degree of obligation, if it exists at all, is lower.
However, I doubt their attempts will be fruitful without ticketing, as RIPTA42HopeTunnel mentioned. Then again, ticketing could cause even more congestion than there already is at times.
And create a greater dislike of police officers than already exists.
Arti
Actually, isn't PATH like that?
Arti
A number of systems worldwide are like this, which is how they handle large volumes of passengers using comparatively few turnstiles without encountering the NYC scenario of crowds of people being delayed on both sides of an entire bank of turnstiles as the people up front try to figure out who can go through which turnstile at what time.
I seem to remember that in a number of rail stations in Japan (perhaps all of them, but I wasn't paying attention all the time), turnstiles can be automatically set to be bi-directional, entry only, or exit only, on a predefined schedule. There are variable message signs above each turnstile facing both ways so you know well in advance which turnstiles to head for, just like at a vehicular toll plaza.
I guess it didn't occur to the turnstile designers that it might be useful to be able to regulate directional flow via the turnstiles themselves.
I don't think it's done automatically. Think about escalators reversing directions. In any case it works because you have to insert your ticket to exit as well.
In Paris and London, most busy stations have separate entrance and exit and the flow is partitioned or separated as well. Same goes for transfer corridors.
On 8th St. and Bway, the turnstyles used to be entry only and the slam gates were exit only. It worked well during rush hours despite the few folks who hit their bodies really hard to the bar, trying to exit through the turnstyles.
At Bleecker downtown, there are two HEETs and one exit only revolving door(how do you call that thing?). Under this scenario, I think that they should have made the HEETs unexitable and added another exit only door.
Anyway, I'd expect some reports 'bout the Airtrain from you and others, as I won't be able to make it until well after 2pm if I can do so. My Driver's license renewal takes priority, and that's not my primary commitment either for tomorrow.
Well, the staircases leading from the platforms to the mezzanine are EXTREMELY narrow. It's hard enough to fit two people side by side on these steps. And there are only eight of these staircases leading up to the Main Street / Roosevelt Avenue mezzanine and exits (which is pretty much where EVERYONE wants to go). Everybody from the west end of the station and the middle end exit here. On the far east end of the station is a new mezzanine on the same level as the platforms, with long escalators leading directly to street level. But these escalators take you halfway up Roosevelt, so people wanting Roosevelt and Main then have to turn around and walk all the way back. So everybody tries to crowd out the middle exits, and it's a fight between the people rushing up, the people trying to force their way down, which then forces the people going up to form a single file line. It's crazy I tell ya!
Much worse is 50th and Broadway, with only one fare control area at each platform and close to half the ridership of Main Street, and I'd guess a similar rush hour peak.
Arti
Especially at IRT stations with exits at only one end of the platform, additional (full-time, unattended) entrances are long overdue.
I don't know about any new entrances in the planning stage, unfortunately. The entrance at 70th and CPW was recently reopened, but it's at a relatively low-use IND station.
CG
That gives me more than enough time to get there. I have a 9 AM road test that day and I was concerned if I was able to make it there if the first train was rolling before 10:30 AM
Does the recording say the train will be leaving from Howard Beach or Jamaica or both?
She said that the first trains for passengers would be at 2:00. I didn't ask, but assumed that there would be some trains running for the highest and mightiest before then.
Since Jamaica and Howard Beach are on different branches, I'm assuming there will be trains leaving from both stations at around 2:00 (service is scheduled for every 4-8 minutes on each branch).
CG
A) The Govenor, Mayor and anything else in between
or
B) Yout name associated with Smith-9th Street station.
In either case I am neither! LOL
I'm hoping someone with inside info will post where the first train is leaving from and/or the details of the earlier trains for dignitaries. Please???
To everyone who will be there: if you are anti-AirTrain or anti-anything about AirTrain, try not to get caught up in the excitement and then start cheering when the first train comes in.
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
I apologize for not responding right away to some of you who contacted me off-line. If you know where you'll be at Jamaica Station at 2PM, I'll try to join you,
I now have access to a computer, obviously, so I'll be checking in at Subtalk...
Brian aka Sir Ronald
Greenberger aka David of Broadway
John V aka Bombadier (no entry yet)
Chris Rivera (no entry yet)
The usual suspects.
Any takers?
My bet, based on past running, is that Chris or Bombadier will be first (and Chris will have some odd-angle arty shots) but Brian will blow us away with the quantity.
The proposal to build a light-rail line from downtown through Natomas to Sacramento International Airport has no realistic chance of securing federal funding, which is vital for such major projects, according to a new analysis by local transportation officials. That could mean years of delay in plans for rail service to the terminal by 2012.
Only one version of the local light-rail proposal meets the new Federal Transit Administration cost-benefit guidelines -- a rail connection from downtown to Natomas Town Center. Passengers could ride a bus from there to the airport, but new buses are not included in that option, so transit officials would have to find another way to pay for that service.
etc... (Four page story)
By David Euchner
In early August the Tucsonans for Sensible Transportation petitioned successfully to put a tax increase and a light rail plan (Propositions 200 and 201) on our citys November ballot.
Anticipating this since last year, I decided to research how light rail works, how much it costs, and whether it could succeed in Tucson. I was disturbed to find how much of a miserable failure light rail has been in every other city which has tried it.
When voters receive the election booklets from the City Clerk, they will read only one opposing argument to Proposition 201, which was submitted by the Pima County Libertarian Party. Unfortunately the booklet does not provide enough space to properly critique the light rail plan.
The proponents of light rail, TST, have focused on the most worthless statistics, such as 48% of light rail riders in Denver had never used transit before. For some reason TST also considers it so important that you can apply makeup and talk on the cell phone on these trolleys that it makes it well worth a half billion dollars! One can only wonder if this bait-and-switch is intentional.
The voters will be deciding whether to commit Tucson to spending half a billion dollars on 13 miles of light rail. If TST will not give us the facts, then we all share the responsibility to find the facts for ourselves. My research has yielded the following substantial information:
Light rail construction on average costs 41% more than the original projection. This means that TSTs figure of $455 million for construction will be inflated to over $640 million.
TST focuses on the capacity of light rail to carry thousands of passengers. But the issue is use, not capacity, and on average each light rail trolley carries dozens of people, not thousands.
In Portland, Oregon, the poster-city for light rail and urban planning fans, the goal was to bring auto trips from 92% of all total trips in the city to 88%. They didnt succeed for the same reasons light rail failed in all other cities, but even if they succeeded then car traffic would not have been substantially reduced.
People do not ride light rail because it is extremely inconvenient. Unless you live next to one of the stops, you would have to take a bus to the trolley.
Light rail trolleys move at 21 mph; in most cities, light rail trips take 100% longer than travelling the same distance by bus or automobile.
The 60% federal dollars that TST is promising will not materialize. Presently Phoenix is unable to get the federal money for their light rail plan that was voted on three years ago, and many other cities throughout the country are biting the bullet.
The per-ride cost of light rail is obscene; according to United States Department of Transportation statistics, in 1990 the average cost of a one-way trip on recently built light rail systems was $9.44. Of course, this cost is not passed on to the riders, which means the taxpayers are footing the bill.
The claim that light rail carries more passengers than a freeway is pure fabrication. According to US DOT statistics, freeways carry six times more passengers per lane mile than light rail does per route mile.
According to Federal Transit Administration data, only New York City has rail ridership over 5% of passenger miles traveled. In most cities, including TST favorites Denver, Salt Lake City, St. Louis and Dallas, less than 0.5% of total passenger miles is via rail.
As a job-creating measure, light rail is a terrible hindrance to the local economy. The jobs are not filled by locals, and they are quite pricy. On average, each job created by light rail costs taxpayers over $414,000, while each job created by expanded bus service costs $65,000.
Beyond the statistics, there are several other problems with this light rail plan.
Extensive road widening will be needed to build light rail in several sections of Sixth Street and Broadway. This means endless construction and the seizure of private property through eminent domain. Gene Caywood of TST has grudgingly admitted to me in public debate that eminent domain is a necessary evil to complete his plan.
Because light rail gets right-of-way in traffic, automobiles waiting for the trolley to pass cause increasing, not decreasing, street level pollution.
Light rail does not lead to increased private development in the corridor. In Portland, the city had to provide millions of dollars in subsidies for businesses to open there.
Beyond that, Portland had the gall to brag that light rail led to the construction of a downtown parking garage! If light rail is such a success, then why is there such need for a parking garage at the end of the line?
Light rail is a 19th century solution for a 21st century problem. All the evidence and sound analysis leads to the conclusion that light rail is a very expensive exercise in futility.
I encourage readers to visit www.pimalp.org to find more complete information and a bibliography of my research. I admit TSTs website is prettier than ours, but we chose to emphasize substance over style. The facts are on our side. Lets learn from Phoenixs mistake and vote NO on Propositions 200 and 201.
David Euchner is a Tucson attorney and Chairman of the Pima County Libertarian Party.
But how would you define "anarchic jungle law ideology"? I'm all in favor of "anarchic jungle law ideology" if we forbade persons who believe in that from partaking in modern day civilization -- for example, if this Euchner bloke wishes to support a return to no government interference, we'll make it so that he can't drive on Federal or state highways (a Federal governmental facilitiy). There is no need to ban it -- it is only necessary to serve them their own medicine.
AEM7
The issues raised by Euchner are serious enough that they shouldn't simply dismissed because people don't agree with his political ideology.
CG
No.
"The users of the highway to pay the costs through access fees." -- that's an economist, not a libertarian. And I am one.
"A Libertarian wouldn't be against a highway" -- Right, not necessarily. But a Libertatian should be against a public highway. However a Libertarian has no right to object to a highway constructed and funded by non-Libertarians, as long as non-Libertarians pay for it. So if we divided this world into Libertarians and non-Libertarians, and ban Libertarians from highways and transit that the rest of us choose to share, then there would be no problems. The Libertarian would have what they wanted, and we would have what we want (non-Libertarian publicly funded highways and transits).
Most of what Euchner said was classic anti-transit rhetoric, and I don't know why you think they are serious issues.
AEM7
But you not taking into account the cost of collecting the fares. Gas taxes are a near perfect substitute for highway access fees because non-highway use of gasoline is so low. Gas taxes are much easier to collect than having toll booths everywhere, but all those anti-tax wackos don't realize that they are the most efficient solution which results in more money heading into infrastructure instead of overhead.
In either case -- tolls or taxes -- the wackos will argue that the solution is to develop a corporation which receives 100% of the revenue and then has responsibility for footing the bill for 100% of the cost of the highway. Tolls end up being more efficient, because the handling of administrative and collection costs and allocation issues (by state, or highway vs. local roadway) are cleaner.
CG
Mike, you need to be introduced to the concept of CONGESTION PRICING. Look it up on the web. Google the keyword. I have a Harvard presentation you might like to read, if you get interested.
AEM7
Personally, I would make the Holland/Lincoln/GW/etc tunnels and bridges $30 inbound between 6-10am weekdays, to strongly discourage people bringing automobiles into NYC.
I think there are better and cheaper ways to shift traffic off of roads and onto transit. NYC has had good success with their morning HOV policy and tight control of parking.
If you can give me a scheeme that is not costly to implement, is not able to track people's movements and still provides people the option of a longer trip time vurses payment I probably wouldn't oppose it. But still, remember in this country many cities with bad congestion don't have a viable transit option to force people onto.
It's not what I think that matters, it's what the good people of Tuscon (who don't have much access to effective transit) think.
CG
My late father-in-law, who had degrees in mining, metallurgical, and chemical engineering, had a favorite bumper sticker. It read:
"Ban Strip Mining. Let the bastards freeze in the dark!
You know what he drives today?
A bike, or a bus. That says alot.
This is an incredibly important point. Even though I disagree with their big-picture opposition to rail transit, it is very true that for rail transit to be effective, land use patterns must be employed which allow for large numbers of people to live close to the rail stations. Zoning must call for denser development so this will be possible. It must also allow for mixed land use so that people can walk to stores and services close to their homes (and stations) so that living without a car can be a viable option. Without this, rail systems won't dramatically impact life in their cities.
Mark
But then after a couple of operators' strikes, and tax revolts on line extensions, and starving the bus companies to keep the light rail going, and crowded rail cars (just because there is demand doesn't mean there is supply, if it is a net cost -- viz. the Lexington Ave. Subway), and, voila, light rail isn't so hot anymore, and everybody hates public transit of all kinds. Then we're really going to be in a fix, when really good forms of rail transit are proposed for these small sparse cities, and light rail has caused everyone to develop a prejudice.
(Unless you live next to one of the stops, you would have to take a bus to the trolley.)
I agree with that. A city like Tucson is just not built for light rail. That's why I think BRT is a good idea. Instead of tracks, you built a grade separated busway into downtown, complete with stations. Instead of taking a bus to the trolley, you take a bus to the BRT line which continues on that line to Downtown, the airport, your stadium, etc. All the buses could merge into the BRT line.
Then you allow dense land use to grow up around the stations. THEN you quickly and easily convert to rail to increase capacity.
New York's rail transit was the product of a similar evolution, beginning with horsecars. You need a link between sprawl and subways. BRT could be it.
I welcome you to visit the Hudson Bergen Light rail. I get on at the 22nd street station and by the second stop, there are NO SEATS and it's standing room only. By the time you reach Liberty State Park, the Light Rail is packed like the #4 Lexington Avenue Express during rush hour. Seriously. This isn't just once in a while but EVERY DAY OF THE WEEK!
If it were so inconvenient, this would not be the case.
Mark
Doesn't this also apply to "heavy ' rail and subways?
I agree with that. A city like Tucson is just not built for light rail. That's why I think BRT is a good idea. Instead of tracks, you built a grade separated busway into downtown, complete with stations. Instead of taking a bus to the trolley, you take a bus to the BRT line which continues on that line to Downtown, the airport, your stadium, etc. All the buses could merge into the BRT line.
Then you allow dense land use to grow up around the stations. THEN you quickly and easily convert to rail to increase capacity.
New York's rail transit was the product of a similar evolution, beginning with horsecars. You need a link between sprawl and subways. BRT could be it.
However the world's leading example of BRT is Curitiba, Brazil, a city that was planned (since 1965) to run along densely developed transit corridors. Most American cities do not have that advantage, which would help any form of mass transit.
I've heard that the BRT in Ottawa works very well.
We're reaping the fruit of our sixty-year commitment to the dogma that cars and sprawling suburbs are the way to go. We've built a world that is hard to recast in a transit-friendly mode.
Mark
Once you start with buses, you tend to stay with the bus forever. Why? You have to hire equiptment to service and mechanics to fix the buses. Then 20 years later, you have to do all that all over again.
Where's the money for the transition to rail ever going to come?
Answer: Never.
That might not be a bad thing. Once there is critical demand, the money will be found for a rail system. If there is no critical demand (i.e the buses never get to the point of overcrowding), then clearly bus is the right mode for that city.
AEM7
Both trains and buses go hand-in-hand and each has their own role.
Now transplants dig this propaganda right up usually. Arizonia, like FL is about 70% transplants. But after living in this ultimate nightmare, i will NEVER live in another city wihtout an alternative again, unless it's a small town, or no town at all. Why? Let me pick apart the agruement using nothing else but some knowledge and mostly common sense!
*Anticipating this since last year, I decided to research how light rail works, how much it costs, and whether it could succeed in Tucson. I was disturbed to find how much of a miserable failure light rail has been in every other city which has tried it.*
-shame he never elaborated, or told us what his failure metrics where. baseless arguement
*The proponents of light rail, TST, have focused on the most worthless statistics, such as 48% of light rail riders in Denver had never used transit before. For some reason TST also considers it so important that you can apply makeup and talk on the cell phone on these trolleys that it makes it well worth a half billion dollars!*
-that half billion is to actually get to work. He never mentions how many billions went to the highway they longer will use ever again.
*Light rail construction on average costs 41% more than the original projection. This means that TSTs figure of $455 million for construction will be inflated to over $640 million.*
-whoopdee doo. He's comparing another state with other systems of goverment. I read otherwise. Also, roughly translated, "I always spend more money on beer than I want to when I go out. Maybe I just shouldn't go out anymore"
*TST focuses on the capacity of light rail to carry thousands of passengers. But the issue is use, not capacity, and on average each light rail trolley carries dozens of people, not thousands.*
Rush hour and busy holiday's/tourist periods carry the bulk. By the same token, the highways that you pay billions to expand, are usually dead after midnight-5am in most towns. I guess they were a waste also. I guess we forgot it's all designed for peak capacity, like water/sewage, electric grid, and the internet.
*In Portland, Oregon, the poster-city for light rail and urban planning fans, the goal was to bring auto trips from 92% of all total trips in the city to 88%. They didnt succeed for the same reasons light rail failed in all other cities, but even if they succeeded then car traffic would not have been substantially reduced.*
-Now, i hear that Portland actually grew. Road traffic stayed exactly where it was(it road traffic grew replacing the ppl who went to LRT), while LRT usage went up. Total travel grew. Without the LRT, the traffic growth, mixed with the LRT people now driving would've been a fatal meltdown to their infrastructure. This means no more growth. Oops Mr. Developer, i guess you shouldn't have campaigned against it, no ones buying your houses.
*People do not ride light rail because it is extremely inconvenient. Unless you live next to one of the stops, you would have to take a bus to the trolley*
-No one lives next to work anymore, nor do they live next to the newstand and coffee shop. Put a station on the freeway onramp. I'm driving there anyway. But this time instead of getting on the highway to stop and go for 45 minutes, i can park, and sit on a smooth vehicle for 20. No wear and tear, gas expense, or parking expense. Where did this I HAVE to drive 100% of my trip and not a portion philosphy even come from? It's a hollow arguement.
****Light rail trolleys move at 21 mph; in most cities, light rail trips take 100% longer than travelling the same distance by bus or automobile. ****
---This is my all time favorite arguement. Where this is guy averaging 21mph at in his car? I haven't been able to do that except in the middle of the night or in the country. I'm doing some research for my own site and this is what i got so far as a teaser. State Road 50, Orlando's main E-W road. 16mph that thing moves at during the day, off peak, and that was on the best day i've ever seen it. What does a stop and go freeway do? less.
*# The 60% federal dollars that TST is promising will not materialize. Presently Phoenix is unable to get the federal money for their light rail plan that was voted on three years ago, and many other cities throughout the country are biting the bullet.*
-I like the wording here. He's stating this all like it's fact. Here's how it works:
You need to have the funds ready, the matching funds, in order for the feds to look at your case and grant you money. Like orlando's $400 million. Without that money, the feds will not chip in the other billion to build them a system. You need to put out the money first, and it's a very small fraction compared with other city projects.
*The per-ride cost of light rail is obscene; according to United States Department of Transportation statistics, in 1990 the average cost of a one-way trip on recently built light rail systems was $9.44. Of course, this cost is not passed on to the riders, which means the taxpayers are footing the bill.*
-Who's footing my bill everytime I get out on that road? It's not free, and I don't see a userfee based on miles mailed to may mailbox everymonth.
*The claim that light rail carries more passengers than a freeway is pure fabrication. According to US DOT statistics, freeways carry six times more passengers per lane mile than light rail does per route mile.*
-Is he legally allowed to make that up? A highway lane can carry at max 2,000 cars an hour. Take a six lane road, 6k cars. one person a vehicle always. A train carries what, like 140 people a car? 2-3 linked together. 5 min headways at rush hour, one direction? (140*3)(12 trains(1 every 5 min for 60 min))= 5040 people. Heavyrail is much higher. How can a rational person even assume a highway lane can carry more people than a train can. If that was the case WE WOULDN'T HAVE TRAFFIC CONGESTION!!!!
*# According to Federal Transit Administration data, only New York City has rail ridership over 5% of passenger miles traveled. In most cities, including TST favorites Denver, Salt Lake City, St. Louis and Dallas, less than 0.5% of total passenger miles is via rail.*
-I wish he explained his point or background on this. What's the total passenger miles per road St. Louis has?
*As a job-creating measure, light rail is a terrible hindrance to the local economy. The jobs are not filled by locals, and they are quite pricy. On average, each job created by light rail costs taxpayers over $414,000, while each job created by expanded bus service costs $65,000.*
-I guess he's never been to Tampa. He'll probably never come here. This doesn't hold true for his glorified trolley at all. But who in a city that's never seen rail cars in 60 years is going to have someone critical of this mans "stories"?
*Because light rail gets right-of-way in traffic, automobiles waiting for the trolley to pass cause increasing, not decreasing, street level pollution.*
Can't cause more traffic then there is now. Why is it whent eh light turns green no one goes? Becasue there's still cars in front of them in the box.
*Light rail does not lead to increased private development in the corridor. In Portland, the city had to provide millions of dollars in subsidies for businesses to open there.*
-Along with every downtown since the beginning of time. Also see previous article listed. Sprawl doesn't build itself. I'd rather pay a million for innercity development than billions for some crap way out there ruining my country views.
*Beyond that, Portland had the gall to brag that light rail led to the construction of a downtown parking garage! If light rail is such a success, then why is there such need for a parking garage at the end of the line?*
-EASY. We dont' live in 1887 anymore. I think that's all I'm going to say, if you didn't read my previous comments. This is all commons sense.
*Light rail is a 19th century solution for a 21st century problem. All the evidence and sound analysis leads to the conclusion that light rail is a very expensive exercise in futility.*
-So's teh combustion engine. Actually i'm four years off, the modern car was invented in 1904. But that's not 21st century. I see a whiner who's not giving me a 21st century solution. Putting flamable liquid in a car is very arachic when you think about it sometimes.
I didn't realize Phoenix made a mistake, and this guys site isn't any good either.
Thank you for you're time, I'm flattered you made it to here. :) Gimme a correction or comment.
IINM, nominal capacity of a freeway lane in perfect conditions is 2,200 vph.
The numbers I've seen date to 1996, but at that time, the southbound E and F trains carried over 40,000 people into Manhattan between 8 and 9am, at only 26 tph (the line can support at least 30), with many R-46's (which have slightly lower passenger capacities than R-32's).
You may find this page of interest.
I try to stay away from New York figures for light rail, because then you get all the sterotyped arguements. You gotta walk there. That's only for big cities. Or it's not comfortable, etc.. So I try to do mock calculations based on experience with SEPTA regional rail, and other facts I've picked up on. Remember the tourist. Some people from other cities never rode on a bus or train before, so from TV or vacation/business trips, NYC is their only image of how these things work, when there's other ways.
I do try to keep a list of sites like that no matter the city, but my bookmarks get messed up from time to time, until I come up with a system I guess.
Fair response. I drag out those numbers when somebody claims that there's no way a subway track could possibly carry more than a few highway lanes. The topic of evacuations was the perfect opportunity to cite them. (Notice that the response I got completely missed the point.)
That links a classic example though, argueing numbers like NYCTA doesn't have any ridership or anything. HAHA
Between a shortage of time and a loss of interest in engaging in discussion with a few people who lack the capacity to discuss, I stopped posting there a few months ago.
Even while I was still posting there regularly, there was one poster who I vowed never to engage in discussion, because he invariably twisted my words. That's not honest debate, and he knows it. Once I stopped responding to his posts, he noticed and stopped baiting me.
Shame there's hundreds more just like him, and they always use the same quotes, and on this type of propaganda, i almost feel obligated to respond.
It's a good thing ther's a federal guy who's got a site somewhere, I think his name was Micheal or Peter Wyland. Pretty much does what I did, since it's always the same arguement.
Paul Weyrich, the Dean of Pro-Rail right wingers. www.trolleycars.org
The HBLR carries dozens of people. Guess what? At the end of the week it amounts to over 20 thoousand passengers.
This is a inaccurate. The HBLR reaches speeds of 50 MPH. If planned properly, a light rail will be much faster than a bus and almost equal a car.
The HBLR route from Hoboken to 22nd street in Bayonne will take close to 27 minutes. If you were to take the NJ Transit bus line from Bayonne to Hoboken, you're talking about 60 to 90 minutes depending on the traffic and how quckly you can make the transfer as you would need to take TWO BUSES!
A car starting from 22nd street in Bayonne will reach Hoboken in about 18 - 23 minutes.
A distance of 8 miles -- or 18 mph.
CG
You would think that 18 mph would be horrible but try doing the same using NJ Transit. The wait alone for the #81 would take about 20 minutes during non rush hour. You would get to the Jersey City depot in about 17 minutes. Then you would have to transfer at Gates Avenue for the #87 which comes one every half hour during non rush hour.
The New Jersey Transit #87 is a slow bus that would arrive in Hoboken within 35 minutes.
Which one would you take?
This is a little amount. We've subsidized the BIG -DIG to the tune of BILLIONS of dollars for what amounts to 13 miles of bad road. Closer to home, we've subsidized the George Washington Bridge to an amount greater than the initial costs!
This man is really stupid. Seriously. He stupid to the point of being dangerous. I begining to think eveything he stated was lies because quite frankly, if he can't understand the purpose of PARK AND RIDE, then he really is ignorant.
The Park and Ride is a FUNCTION OF THE LIGHT RAIL! Without the HBLR, there would be no need to create those parking spaces at Liberty park and all over. WE CANNOT CONTINUE TO BRING CARS DOWNTOWN! THERE IS NO MORE SPACE.
This seems to be a big one too. Big arguement in Orange County, FL and i'm sure everywhere, "what's the point if I have to drive to it, it doesn't come to my door." Like the freeway comes to your door. Well you're driving to the "parking lot" anyway, what's the problem with driving a small percentage of it. I drive to the local park-n-ride for the express bus for daytrips sometimes. I drove 5-10 minutes(30min during rush) and rode for 40ish minutes(1:15 rush last week). I did my part, and am very happy with it.
I like to see where he gets these figures. The city of Bayonne and Jersey City are NOT paying $414,000 thousand dollar jobs. The average worker on the HBLR makes 25 - 40k a year. Not a lot of money. Furthermore the system easily pays these salaries.
He then compares it to the salary and benefits of adding one bus operator.
It isn't a fair comparison -- but it should be considered that bus is likely cheaper than light rail even when the comparison is fair. Just not by that much (or anything close to it).
CG
According to Bayonne Times, all homes within a four block radious of the HBLR has seen their property values increase by 20 percent in the last 3 years.
If you travel all along downtown Jersey City, there is MASSIVE development going all along the the lightrail route. BILLIONS of dollars have been and will be invested all along that route and in 20 years, it will look like downtown Manhattan. Skyskrapers are going up and luxury million dollars condos are everywhere.
While I don't agree with Wyland, there ARE highway user fees in the form of the gas tax. A state gas tax does cover nearly all of the maintenance of a highway network and the federal tax covers good chunk of new construction costs, at least in most states. Since the amount of gas you use is dependent on your mileage, the gas tax is essentially a mileage-based user fee.
Even though the gas tax around here is, I think, 40-50 cents a gallon, they say it's not enough. Even a local tolling authority's bulletin board, the authority always cites this too, along with newspapers. I think the deficit nationally on highway maintance funds is something like 8 billion, but I can't remember. And I don't htink that figure has any bearing if your a donor state or not.
If state X has a lower gas tax rate than state Y, many people will buy gas in X and drive in Y. That robs Y of funding it should be getting to maintain its roads, which in turn leads to a higher gas tax, which pushes even more people to buy their gas in X, and so on.
If some roads are more expensive to build or maintain than others (based either on the design of the road or the location), people will tend to buy gas where the roads are cheaper. Same effect as above.
Many roads (e.g., city streets in most areas) aren't funded by the gas tax at all. A taxpayer in the area who doesn't make extensive use of those roads is paying more than his fair share, while non-taxpayers who pass through get a free ride.
The space on roads in urban and suburban areas is more valuable at some times of the day than at others. Gas taxes can't charge a variable rate based on the value of that space; tolls can.
While that's true to an extent, it's not too much to worry about. For example, historically gas is cheaper in New Jersey than New York. However, if I live in let's say Queens, It would be useless for me to drive to New Jersey when I need gas just to save $.25 a gallon (random number). Any savings would be lost by the extra milage (and gas used) to get there and back , and the tolls. It's even true if you don't need to use tolls. Generally gas is cheaper in Nassau/Suffolk than it is in the city. Again, if I live in Brooklyn, I'm not going to drive an extra 30 miles to save $.15 gallon as again, the savings is eaten up driving to the further away gas station.
The only people that works for to a small extent is if let's say you live in Queens and work in New Jersey, you may try to buy most of your gas in New Jersey whenever you are there. However, that gas is used on the commute, so you will have to buy gas in Queens also, as the gas you bought in New Jersey will be partially used up on the ride home. You won't be able to do heavy driving with your "cheap gas", because you have to either fill up in Queens before driving back to New Jersey the next day, or will have to not drive anywhere in Queens so you'll have enough gas to get back to New Jersey.
Trust me, people who live in Queens and work in NJ NEVER buy gas in Queens. It doesn't take a full tank of gas to make a round trip, so you can always buy in NJ.
AlM is correct. Commuters between New Jersey and Queens buy essentially all of their (commuting) gas in New Jersey. Long-distance travelers who are aware of the typical price differentials also aim to fill up in New Jersey.
Notice, BTW, that a large fraction of New Jersey's major highway mileage is tolled. Is it a coincidence that the gas tax is low? Of course not.
Shame is, at low density, ther is a valid debate whether you can even pay the operating costs to make a high-level service on a trunk bus route, let alone capital on light rail. In a private car the operating costs are "paid" by self-operation; dial-up massive van pooling would be the ideal answer in theory. You can't solve much of anything at four units an acre. But, then, that density attracts Jeremiah Johnson wannabes like this.
So he thinks buses average 42mph?
Not my experience. I used to ride a bus in Birmingham, UK, which was scheduled off-peak to take 23 minutes to run 4 miles - an average speed of about 10mph. The bus company never published a rush hour schedule (as it runs 20bph peak, 15 off-peak), but my experience was that it took anything from half an hour to an hour - that's 4 to 8 mph.
Not my experience. I used to ride a bus in Birmingham, UK, which was scheduled off-peak to take 23 minutes to run 4 miles - an average speed of about 10mph. The bus company never published a rush hour schedule (as it runs 20bph peak, 15 off-peak), but my experience was that it took anything from half an hour to an hour - that's 4 to 8 mph.<<<<<
Good one James.. I also want to add that cities have a 25 to 30 mph speed limit for cars. The average time to drive 5 miles in city street in NJ was 15 minutes. A 10 mile journey will take close to half an hour which is just slightly faster than the light rail.
go figure
I dont' know about AZ, but the southern states, most urban through-streets are between 35-50mph limits. Not to often are they 35 except in some absurb cases. And sometimes when that sign says 50+, you ain't doing 15. It's only way out there int he country do you reach ludicris speeds.
But am I glad you guys pointed out that bus thing!!!
But how would you define "anarchic jungle law ideology"? I'm all in favor of "anarchic jungle law ideology" if we forbade persons who believe in that from partaking in modern day civilization -- for example, if this Euchner bloke wishes to support a return to no government interference, we'll make it so that he can't drive on Federal or state highways (a Federal governmental facilitiy). There is no need to ban it -- it is only necessary to serve them their own medicine.
AEM7
The issues raised by Euchner are serious enough that they shouldn't simply dismissed because people don't agree with his political ideology.
CG
No.
"The users of the highway to pay the costs through access fees." -- that's an economist, not a libertarian. And I am one.
"A Libertarian wouldn't be against a highway" -- Right, not necessarily. But a Libertatian should be against a public highway. However a Libertarian has no right to object to a highway constructed and funded by non-Libertarians, as long as non-Libertarians pay for it. So if we divided this world into Libertarians and non-Libertarians, and ban Libertarians from highways and transit that the rest of us choose to share, then there would be no problems. The Libertarian would have what they wanted, and we would have what we want (non-Libertarian publicly funded highways and transits).
Most of what Euchner said was classic anti-transit rhetoric, and I don't know why you think they are serious issues.
AEM7
But you not taking into account the cost of collecting the fares. Gas taxes are a near perfect substitute for highway access fees because non-highway use of gasoline is so low. Gas taxes are much easier to collect than having toll booths everywhere, but all those anti-tax wackos don't realize that they are the most efficient solution which results in more money heading into infrastructure instead of overhead.
In either case -- tolls or taxes -- the wackos will argue that the solution is to develop a corporation which receives 100% of the revenue and then has responsibility for footing the bill for 100% of the cost of the highway. Tolls end up being more efficient, because the handling of administrative and collection costs and allocation issues (by state, or highway vs. local roadway) are cleaner.
CG
Mike, you need to be introduced to the concept of CONGESTION PRICING. Look it up on the web. Google the keyword. I have a Harvard presentation you might like to read, if you get interested.
AEM7
Personally, I would make the Holland/Lincoln/GW/etc tunnels and bridges $30 inbound between 6-10am weekdays, to strongly discourage people bringing automobiles into NYC.
I think there are better and cheaper ways to shift traffic off of roads and onto transit. NYC has had good success with their morning HOV policy and tight control of parking.
If you can give me a scheeme that is not costly to implement, is not able to track people's movements and still provides people the option of a longer trip time vurses payment I probably wouldn't oppose it. But still, remember in this country many cities with bad congestion don't have a viable transit option to force people onto.
It's not what I think that matters, it's what the good people of Tuscon (who don't have much access to effective transit) think.
CG
My late father-in-law, who had degrees in mining, metallurgical, and chemical engineering, had a favorite bumper sticker. It read:
"Ban Strip Mining. Let the bastards freeze in the dark!
You know what he drives today?
A bike, or a bus. That says alot.
Baltic
Mediteranean
Oriental
Vermont
Connecticutt
Saint Charles
States
Virginia
Saint James
Tennessee
New York
Kentucky
Indiana
Illinois
Atlantic
Ventnor
Marvin Gardens
Pacific
North Carolina
Pennsylvania
Park Place
Board Walk
Now I need you to give me 4 other transportation companies that aren't railroads to replace the Reading, B and O, Short Line, and Pennsy railroads.
THanks
Chuck
Oriental BOSTON & ALBANY
Vermont MICHIGAN & LAKE SHORE
Connecticutt NEW YORK & ALBANY
Saint Charles CHICAGO, BURLINGTON & QUINCY
States NORTHERN PACIFIC
Virginia GREAT NORTHERN
Saint James UNION PACIFIC
Tennessee WESTERN PACIFIC
New York CHICAGO & NORTH WESTERN
Kentucky NORFOLK & WESTERN
Indiana VIRGINIAN
Illinois SOUTHERN PACIFIC
Atlantic LOUISVILLE & NASHVILLE
Ventnor SEABOARD COAST LINE
Marvin Gardens MISSOURI PACIFIC
Pacific BALTIMORE & OHIO
North Carolina CHESAPEAKE & OHIO
Pennsylvania MILWAUKEE ROAD
Park Place NEW YORK, NEW HAVEN & HARTFORD
Board Walk PROVIDENCE & WORCESTER
Non-Railroad Transportation Firms
AMERICAN AIRLINES
UNITED AIRLINES
OVERNITE EXPRESS
ROADWAY EXPRESS
This is an incredibly important point. Even though I disagree with their big-picture opposition to rail transit, it is very true that for rail transit to be effective, land use patterns must be employed which allow for large numbers of people to live close to the rail stations. Zoning must call for denser development so this will be possible. It must also allow for mixed land use so that people can walk to stores and services close to their homes (and stations) so that living without a car can be a viable option. Without this, rail systems won't dramatically impact life in their cities.
Mark
But then after a couple of operators' strikes, and tax revolts on line extensions, and starving the bus companies to keep the light rail going, and crowded rail cars (just because there is demand doesn't mean there is supply, if it is a net cost -- viz. the Lexington Ave. Subway), and, voila, light rail isn't so hot anymore, and everybody hates public transit of all kinds. Then we're really going to be in a fix, when really good forms of rail transit are proposed for these small sparse cities, and light rail has caused everyone to develop a prejudice.
(Unless you live next to one of the stops, you would have to take a bus to the trolley.)
I agree with that. A city like Tucson is just not built for light rail. That's why I think BRT is a good idea. Instead of tracks, you built a grade separated busway into downtown, complete with stations. Instead of taking a bus to the trolley, you take a bus to the BRT line which continues on that line to Downtown, the airport, your stadium, etc. All the buses could merge into the BRT line.
Then you allow dense land use to grow up around the stations. THEN you quickly and easily convert to rail to increase capacity.
New York's rail transit was the product of a similar evolution, beginning with horsecars. You need a link between sprawl and subways. BRT could be it.
I welcome you to visit the Hudson Bergen Light rail. I get on at the 22nd street station and by the second stop, there are NO SEATS and it's standing room only. By the time you reach Liberty State Park, the Light Rail is packed like the #4 Lexington Avenue Express during rush hour. Seriously. This isn't just once in a while but EVERY DAY OF THE WEEK!
If it were so inconvenient, this would not be the case.
Mark
Doesn't this also apply to "heavy ' rail and subways?
I agree with that. A city like Tucson is just not built for light rail. That's why I think BRT is a good idea. Instead of tracks, you built a grade separated busway into downtown, complete with stations. Instead of taking a bus to the trolley, you take a bus to the BRT line which continues on that line to Downtown, the airport, your stadium, etc. All the buses could merge into the BRT line.
Then you allow dense land use to grow up around the stations. THEN you quickly and easily convert to rail to increase capacity.
New York's rail transit was the product of a similar evolution, beginning with horsecars. You need a link between sprawl and subways. BRT could be it.
However the world's leading example of BRT is Curitiba, Brazil, a city that was planned (since 1965) to run along densely developed transit corridors. Most American cities do not have that advantage, which would help any form of mass transit.
I've heard that the BRT in Ottawa works very well.
We're reaping the fruit of our sixty-year commitment to the dogma that cars and sprawling suburbs are the way to go. We've built a world that is hard to recast in a transit-friendly mode.
Mark
Once you start with buses, you tend to stay with the bus forever. Why? You have to hire equiptment to service and mechanics to fix the buses. Then 20 years later, you have to do all that all over again.
Where's the money for the transition to rail ever going to come?
Answer: Never.
That might not be a bad thing. Once there is critical demand, the money will be found for a rail system. If there is no critical demand (i.e the buses never get to the point of overcrowding), then clearly bus is the right mode for that city.
AEM7
Both trains and buses go hand-in-hand and each has their own role.
Now transplants dig this propaganda right up usually. Arizonia, like FL is about 70% transplants. But after living in this ultimate nightmare, i will NEVER live in another city wihtout an alternative again, unless it's a small town, or no town at all. Why? Let me pick apart the agruement using nothing else but some knowledge and mostly common sense!
*Anticipating this since last year, I decided to research how light rail works, how much it costs, and whether it could succeed in Tucson. I was disturbed to find how much of a miserable failure light rail has been in every other city which has tried it.*
-shame he never elaborated, or told us what his failure metrics where. baseless arguement
*The proponents of light rail, TST, have focused on the most worthless statistics, such as 48% of light rail riders in Denver had never used transit before. For some reason TST also considers it so important that you can apply makeup and talk on the cell phone on these trolleys that it makes it well worth a half billion dollars!*
-that half billion is to actually get to work. He never mentions how many billions went to the highway they longer will use ever again.
*Light rail construction on average costs 41% more than the original projection. This means that TSTs figure of $455 million for construction will be inflated to over $640 million.*
-whoopdee doo. He's comparing another state with other systems of goverment. I read otherwise. Also, roughly translated, "I always spend more money on beer than I want to when I go out. Maybe I just shouldn't go out anymore"
*TST focuses on the capacity of light rail to carry thousands of passengers. But the issue is use, not capacity, and on average each light rail trolley carries dozens of people, not thousands.*
Rush hour and busy holiday's/tourist periods carry the bulk. By the same token, the highways that you pay billions to expand, are usually dead after midnight-5am in most towns. I guess they were a waste also. I guess we forgot it's all designed for peak capacity, like water/sewage, electric grid, and the internet.
*In Portland, Oregon, the poster-city for light rail and urban planning fans, the goal was to bring auto trips from 92% of all total trips in the city to 88%. They didnt succeed for the same reasons light rail failed in all other cities, but even if they succeeded then car traffic would not have been substantially reduced.*
-Now, i hear that Portland actually grew. Road traffic stayed exactly where it was(it road traffic grew replacing the ppl who went to LRT), while LRT usage went up. Total travel grew. Without the LRT, the traffic growth, mixed with the LRT people now driving would've been a fatal meltdown to their infrastructure. This means no more growth. Oops Mr. Developer, i guess you shouldn't have campaigned against it, no ones buying your houses.
*People do not ride light rail because it is extremely inconvenient. Unless you live next to one of the stops, you would have to take a bus to the trolley*
-No one lives next to work anymore, nor do they live next to the newstand and coffee shop. Put a station on the freeway onramp. I'm driving there anyway. But this time instead of getting on the highway to stop and go for 45 minutes, i can park, and sit on a smooth vehicle for 20. No wear and tear, gas expense, or parking expense. Where did this I HAVE to drive 100% of my trip and not a portion philosphy even come from? It's a hollow arguement.
****Light rail trolleys move at 21 mph; in most cities, light rail trips take 100% longer than travelling the same distance by bus or automobile. ****
---This is my all time favorite arguement. Where this is guy averaging 21mph at in his car? I haven't been able to do that except in the middle of the night or in the country. I'm doing some research for my own site and this is what i got so far as a teaser. State Road 50, Orlando's main E-W road. 16mph that thing moves at during the day, off peak, and that was on the best day i've ever seen it. What does a stop and go freeway do? less.
*# The 60% federal dollars that TST is promising will not materialize. Presently Phoenix is unable to get the federal money for their light rail plan that was voted on three years ago, and many other cities throughout the country are biting the bullet.*
-I like the wording here. He's stating this all like it's fact. Here's how it works:
You need to have the funds ready, the matching funds, in order for the feds to look at your case and grant you money. Like orlando's $400 million. Without that money, the feds will not chip in the other billion to build them a system. You need to put out the money first, and it's a very small fraction compared with other city projects.
*The per-ride cost of light rail is obscene; according to United States Department of Transportation statistics, in 1990 the average cost of a one-way trip on recently built light rail systems was $9.44. Of course, this cost is not passed on to the riders, which means the taxpayers are footing the bill.*
-Who's footing my bill everytime I get out on that road? It's not free, and I don't see a userfee based on miles mailed to may mailbox everymonth.
*The claim that light rail carries more passengers than a freeway is pure fabrication. According to US DOT statistics, freeways carry six times more passengers per lane mile than light rail does per route mile.*
-Is he legally allowed to make that up? A highway lane can carry at max 2,000 cars an hour. Take a six lane road, 6k cars. one person a vehicle always. A train carries what, like 140 people a car? 2-3 linked together. 5 min headways at rush hour, one direction? (140*3)(12 trains(1 every 5 min for 60 min))= 5040 people. Heavyrail is much higher. How can a rational person even assume a highway lane can carry more people than a train can. If that was the case WE WOULDN'T HAVE TRAFFIC CONGESTION!!!!
*# According to Federal Transit Administration data, only New York City has rail ridership over 5% of passenger miles traveled. In most cities, including TST favorites Denver, Salt Lake City, St. Louis and Dallas, less than 0.5% of total passenger miles is via rail.*
-I wish he explained his point or background on this. What's the total passenger miles per road St. Louis has?
*As a job-creating measure, light rail is a terrible hindrance to the local economy. The jobs are not filled by locals, and they are quite pricy. On average, each job created by light rail costs taxpayers over $414,000, while each job created by expanded bus service costs $65,000.*
-I guess he's never been to Tampa. He'll probably never come here. This doesn't hold true for his glorified trolley at all. But who in a city that's never seen rail cars in 60 years is going to have someone critical of this mans "stories"?
*Because light rail gets right-of-way in traffic, automobiles waiting for the trolley to pass cause increasing, not decreasing, street level pollution.*
Can't cause more traffic then there is now. Why is it whent eh light turns green no one goes? Becasue there's still cars in front of them in the box.
*Light rail does not lead to increased private development in the corridor. In Portland, the city had to provide millions of dollars in subsidies for businesses to open there.*
-Along with every downtown since the beginning of time. Also see previous article listed. Sprawl doesn't build itself. I'd rather pay a million for innercity development than billions for some crap way out there ruining my country views.
*Beyond that, Portland had the gall to brag that light rail led to the construction of a downtown parking garage! If light rail is such a success, then why is there such need for a parking garage at the end of the line?*
-EASY. We dont' live in 1887 anymore. I think that's all I'm going to say, if you didn't read my previous comments. This is all commons sense.
*Light rail is a 19th century solution for a 21st century problem. All the evidence and sound analysis leads to the conclusion that light rail is a very expensive exercise in futility.*
-So's teh combustion engine. Actually i'm four years off, the modern car was invented in 1904. But that's not 21st century. I see a whiner who's not giving me a 21st century solution. Putting flamable liquid in a car is very arachic when you think about it sometimes.
I didn't realize Phoenix made a mistake, and this guys site isn't any good either.
Thank you for you're time, I'm flattered you made it to here. :) Gimme a correction or comment.
IINM, nominal capacity of a freeway lane in perfect conditions is 2,200 vph.
The numbers I've seen date to 1996, but at that time, the southbound E and F trains carried over 40,000 people into Manhattan between 8 and 9am, at only 26 tph (the line can support at least 30), with many R-46's (which have slightly lower passenger capacities than R-32's).
You may find this page of interest.
I try to stay away from New York figures for light rail, because then you get all the sterotyped arguements. You gotta walk there. That's only for big cities. Or it's not comfortable, etc.. So I try to do mock calculations based on experience with SEPTA regional rail, and other facts I've picked up on. Remember the tourist. Some people from other cities never rode on a bus or train before, so from TV or vacation/business trips, NYC is their only image of how these things work, when there's other ways.
I do try to keep a list of sites like that no matter the city, but my bookmarks get messed up from time to time, until I come up with a system I guess.
Fair response. I drag out those numbers when somebody claims that there's no way a subway track could possibly carry more than a few highway lanes. The topic of evacuations was the perfect opportunity to cite them. (Notice that the response I got completely missed the point.)
That links a classic example though, argueing numbers like NYCTA doesn't have any ridership or anything. HAHA
Between a shortage of time and a loss of interest in engaging in discussion with a few people who lack the capacity to discuss, I stopped posting there a few months ago.
Even while I was still posting there regularly, there was one poster who I vowed never to engage in discussion, because he invariably twisted my words. That's not honest debate, and he knows it. Once I stopped responding to his posts, he noticed and stopped baiting me.
Shame there's hundreds more just like him, and they always use the same quotes, and on this type of propaganda, i almost feel obligated to respond.
It's a good thing ther's a federal guy who's got a site somewhere, I think his name was Micheal or Peter Wyland. Pretty much does what I did, since it's always the same arguement.
Paul Weyrich, the Dean of Pro-Rail right wingers. www.trolleycars.org
The HBLR carries dozens of people. Guess what? At the end of the week it amounts to over 20 thoousand passengers.
This is a inaccurate. The HBLR reaches speeds of 50 MPH. If planned properly, a light rail will be much faster than a bus and almost equal a car.
The HBLR route from Hoboken to 22nd street in Bayonne will take close to 27 minutes. If you were to take the NJ Transit bus line from Bayonne to Hoboken, you're talking about 60 to 90 minutes depending on the traffic and how quckly you can make the transfer as you would need to take TWO BUSES!
A car starting from 22nd street in Bayonne will reach Hoboken in about 18 - 23 minutes.
A distance of 8 miles -- or 18 mph.
CG
You would think that 18 mph would be horrible but try doing the same using NJ Transit. The wait alone for the #81 would take about 20 minutes during non rush hour. You would get to the Jersey City depot in about 17 minutes. Then you would have to transfer at Gates Avenue for the #87 which comes one every half hour during non rush hour.
The New Jersey Transit #87 is a slow bus that would arrive in Hoboken within 35 minutes.
Which one would you take?
This is a little amount. We've subsidized the BIG -DIG to the tune of BILLIONS of dollars for what amounts to 13 miles of bad road. Closer to home, we've subsidized the George Washington Bridge to an amount greater than the initial costs!
This man is really stupid. Seriously. He stupid to the point of being dangerous. I begining to think eveything he stated was lies because quite frankly, if he can't understand the purpose of PARK AND RIDE, then he really is ignorant.
The Park and Ride is a FUNCTION OF THE LIGHT RAIL! Without the HBLR, there would be no need to create those parking spaces at Liberty park and all over. WE CANNOT CONTINUE TO BRING CARS DOWNTOWN! THERE IS NO MORE SPACE.
This seems to be a big one too. Big arguement in Orange County, FL and i'm sure everywhere, "what's the point if I have to drive to it, it doesn't come to my door." Like the freeway comes to your door. Well you're driving to the "parking lot" anyway, what's the problem with driving a small percentage of it. I drive to the local park-n-ride for the express bus for daytrips sometimes. I drove 5-10 minutes(30min during rush) and rode for 40ish minutes(1:15 rush last week). I did my part, and am very happy with it.
I like to see where he gets these figures. The city of Bayonne and Jersey City are NOT paying $414,000 thousand dollar jobs. The average worker on the HBLR makes 25 - 40k a year. Not a lot of money. Furthermore the system easily pays these salaries.
He then compares it to the salary and benefits of adding one bus operator.
It isn't a fair comparison -- but it should be considered that bus is likely cheaper than light rail even when the comparison is fair. Just not by that much (or anything close to it).
CG
According to Bayonne Times, all homes within a four block radious of the HBLR has seen their property values increase by 20 percent in the last 3 years.
If you travel all along downtown Jersey City, there is MASSIVE development going all along the the lightrail route. BILLIONS of dollars have been and will be invested all along that route and in 20 years, it will look like downtown Manhattan. Skyskrapers are going up and luxury million dollars condos are everywhere.
While I don't agree with Wyland, there ARE highway user fees in the form of the gas tax. A state gas tax does cover nearly all of the maintenance of a highway network and the federal tax covers good chunk of new construction costs, at least in most states. Since the amount of gas you use is dependent on your mileage, the gas tax is essentially a mileage-based user fee.
Even though the gas tax around here is, I think, 40-50 cents a gallon, they say it's not enough. Even a local tolling authority's bulletin board, the authority always cites this too, along with newspapers. I think the deficit nationally on highway maintance funds is something like 8 billion, but I can't remember. And I don't htink that figure has any bearing if your a donor state or not.
If state X has a lower gas tax rate than state Y, many people will buy gas in X and drive in Y. That robs Y of funding it should be getting to maintain its roads, which in turn leads to a higher gas tax, which pushes even more people to buy their gas in X, and so on.
If some roads are more expensive to build or maintain than others (based either on the design of the road or the location), people will tend to buy gas where the roads are cheaper. Same effect as above.
Many roads (e.g., city streets in most areas) aren't funded by the gas tax at all. A taxpayer in the area who doesn't make extensive use of those roads is paying more than his fair share, while non-taxpayers who pass through get a free ride.
The space on roads in urban and suburban areas is more valuable at some times of the day than at others. Gas taxes can't charge a variable rate based on the value of that space; tolls can.
While that's true to an extent, it's not too much to worry about. For example, historically gas is cheaper in New Jersey than New York. However, if I live in let's say Queens, It would be useless for me to drive to New Jersey when I need gas just to save $.25 a gallon (random number). Any savings would be lost by the extra milage (and gas used) to get there and back , and the tolls. It's even true if you don't need to use tolls. Generally gas is cheaper in Nassau/Suffolk than it is in the city. Again, if I live in Brooklyn, I'm not going to drive an extra 30 miles to save $.15 gallon as again, the savings is eaten up driving to the further away gas station.
The only people that works for to a small extent is if let's say you live in Queens and work in New Jersey, you may try to buy most of your gas in New Jersey whenever you are there. However, that gas is used on the commute, so you will have to buy gas in Queens also, as the gas you bought in New Jersey will be partially used up on the ride home. You won't be able to do heavy driving with your "cheap gas", because you have to either fill up in Queens before driving back to New Jersey the next day, or will have to not drive anywhere in Queens so you'll have enough gas to get back to New Jersey.
Trust me, people who live in Queens and work in NJ NEVER buy gas in Queens. It doesn't take a full tank of gas to make a round trip, so you can always buy in NJ.
AlM is correct. Commuters between New Jersey and Queens buy essentially all of their (commuting) gas in New Jersey. Long-distance travelers who are aware of the typical price differentials also aim to fill up in New Jersey.
Notice, BTW, that a large fraction of New Jersey's major highway mileage is tolled. Is it a coincidence that the gas tax is low? Of course not.
Shame is, at low density, ther is a valid debate whether you can even pay the operating costs to make a high-level service on a trunk bus route, let alone capital on light rail. In a private car the operating costs are "paid" by self-operation; dial-up massive van pooling would be the ideal answer in theory. You can't solve much of anything at four units an acre. But, then, that density attracts Jeremiah Johnson wannabes like this.
So he thinks buses average 42mph?
Not my experience. I used to ride a bus in Birmingham, UK, which was scheduled off-peak to take 23 minutes to run 4 miles - an average speed of about 10mph. The bus company never published a rush hour schedule (as it runs 20bph peak, 15 off-peak), but my experience was that it took anything from half an hour to an hour - that's 4 to 8 mph.
Not my experience. I used to ride a bus in Birmingham, UK, which was scheduled off-peak to take 23 minutes to run 4 miles - an average speed of about 10mph. The bus company never published a rush hour schedule (as it runs 20bph peak, 15 off-peak), but my experience was that it took anything from half an hour to an hour - that's 4 to 8 mph.<<<<<
Good one James.. I also want to add that cities have a 25 to 30 mph speed limit for cars. The average time to drive 5 miles in city street in NJ was 15 minutes. A 10 mile journey will take close to half an hour which is just slightly faster than the light rail.
go figure
I dont' know about AZ, but the southern states, most urban through-streets are between 35-50mph limits. Not to often are they 35 except in some absurb cases. And sometimes when that sign says 50+, you ain't doing 15. It's only way out there int he country do you reach ludicris speeds.
But am I glad you guys pointed out that bus thing!!!
What are you going to do? dig them up and move them? That's the absurdest thing I have ever heard of.
: )- Elias
Arti
Bit more work in 1:1 scale, eh?
Elias
Yes.
Benedictine monks, unlike friars or other religious orders take vows of stability. One joins a particular monastery for life. In our monastery, we closed our high school and college back in the early '70s, and so we have a few spare rooms for hobbies and things.
This particular room used to be Fr. Raphael's typing classroom. (You *do* remember typewriters, don't you.~ Old Remmington upright manuals)
We heard some stories from alumni about *that* class!
Elias
Seriously, you have mentioned several times that the high school and college closed, but never mentioned why? Lack of funds; lack of students?
I do remember typewriters: I had a manual portable growing up, and used it to type Gestetner masters (remember those?), having to clean the wax out of the typebars every couple of pages or so, otherwise the counters of as and es would fill in.
It was a luxury when I got to college and had the use of a Selectric with changeable golfballs and carbon film ribbons no less! I had to relearn to type, as I would hit the keys too hard and some of them would autorepeat when I didnt want it!
Or does the T/O just have to spot the train correctly?
+--+
|10|
+--+
| 8|
+--+
75-foot trains always stop at the next larger-numbered marker. 6-car 75-foot trains stop at the 8 marker; 4-car 75-foot trains stop at the 6 (or OPTO, if applicable) marker.
At some stations (especially on the Queens Blvd. and Crosstown lines, there are stop markers that have 10 and 6 together. This is so that the conductors of G trains (475', stopping at 6) are properly lined up with the board/monitors at such stations (C/R's are in the 4th car).
http://abpr2.railfan.net/abprphoto.cgi?november03/11-01-03/2802_Drogheda_26-10-2003.jpg
David
Koi
http://photo.starblvd.net/paul3025/4-3-1.jpg
P.S.: I hope you didn't take that the wrong way--thinking I was acting like a "smartypants".
Neither of them would have been able to look out through a regular window on an R68.
1) proff
2) brah
Mark
Isn't that some sort of foundation garment or something?
:^)
Mark
About 15 years ago I read an interview with a KC gangsta rap group that claimed THEY originated the slang word 'dis', (meaning 'disrespecting' someone), only it was all a misunderstanding. They said in their rap song the phrase was actually 'def you' meaning 'death you' but a lot of their fans, for some odd reason, heard it as 'dis you' and assumed it was short for 'disrespect you'. Next thing they knew they were hearing the word everywhere ("dis you", "you dissed me", etc) which they thought was very funny. They said that in their song they had been talking about killing someone, not hurting their feeling. Big difference!
1.The evidence or argument that compels the mind to accept an assertion as sarcastic.
2.
a.The validation of a satirical proposition by application of specified rules, as of induction or deduction, to assumptions, axioms, and sequentially derived conclusions.
b.A statement or argument used in such a validation.
brah (br)
n. Slang pl.
1.A brother.
2.Friend; pal. Used as a form of familiar address for a man or boy: So long, brah.
3.Abbreviation for brother.
Jamaica to Howard Beach - easy - go downstairs from Jamaica LIRR to Sutphin Blvd/Archer Ave subway station, J train to Broadway Jcn/Eastern Parkway, transfer to Broadway Jcn/East New York, A train to Howard Beach. Price $2, or $1.67 with a $10 MetroCard.
DRAFT -- Subtalk FAQ version 0.1
by AEM7 #902
Q: Are post count aggregate statistics available for Subtalk?
A: Subtalker American Pig provides a post-count service.
Q: Can I change my Subtalk handle?
A: E-mail the webmaster with your old and desired Subtalk handle, and if the webmaster approves the change, you should get an email within a few hours.
Q: What is an Arnine?
A: Arnine is a generic term used to describe NYCTA cars built between 19xx and 19yy. These early cars were constructed under the contract numbers R-1 to R-9, but as they are difficult to distinguish visually, they are simply referred to as "Arnine". In practice, NYCTA did not make the distinction between these cars, unlike later builds.
Q: What is a Redbird?
A: Redbird is the NYCTA subway cars built for World's Fair, recently reefed.
Q: Is heavy-rail, commuter rail, light rail on topic?
A: Yes.
Q: Will the webmaster remove harrassing and/or irrelevant posts?
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A: You have to put the picture on your own web server. Subtalk does not provide space for posting pictures. You can get webspace from free servers such as geocities, dreamweb. Once you have posted the picture onto your own web server, use the following HTML to link to it: $lt;img src="http://your.server.com/~user/image.jpg"<
Q: Can I post ads on Subtalk?
A: Yes, for personal transit-related items, as long as it is not excessive. A good way to post an ad is to post the item in the subject line and link to an ebay auction.
Q: Where can I find more information about New York City Transit Planning?
A: You might try to search the archives (insert link here). You should also consult MTA's website, www.mta.info, which has many capital plan documents available.
Q: Can I post "insider information" to Subtalk?
A: Subtalk is a public forum. You can generally post insider information to Subtalk, but you take the sole risk for publicizing such information. You may wish to protect the identity of your "insider" contact by not posting their name or department.
Q: Can I find out who such-and-such poster is?
A: Yes, usually. Some poster make their email public through their posts, and you can write them and they may respond. The webmaster cannot generally provide information on the real name of posters.
Q: Has anyone ever been banned from Subtalk?
A: Yes, E_DOG, for trolling the board with racist remarks. This also led to a Subtalk hiatus while David repaired his servers due to a hardware failure.
Q: Can you get virus from Subtalk?
A: No. But if you did, you should try contacting Subtalker SelkirkTMO, who specializes in making anti-virus software.
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A: No. If you visit a site that has an on-exit popup (such a porn site) before Subtalk, an ad window may pop up after you enter the Subtalk URL. Such an ad comes from the last site you visited, not Subtalk.
Q: Who pays for Subtalk?
A: Through donations, the Subtalk community pays for it. Click on Amazon Honor System to donate.
Q: What is 'brah'? What is 'proff'?
A:
proff (prf) n.
1.The evidence or argument that compels the mind to accept an assertion as sarcastic.
2.
a.The validation of a satirical proposition by application of specified rules, as of induction or deduction, to assumptions, axioms, and sequentially derived conclusions.
b.A statement or argument used in such a validation.
brah (br) n. Slang pl.
1.A brother.
2.Friend; pal. Used as a form of familiar address for a man or boy: So long, brah.
3.Abbreviation for brother.
Q: Can I complain about transit service on Subtalk?
A: Yes, in general, but it is unlikely to be well received. A more appropriate forum is the Straphangers Campaign Message Board (link). If you can provide constructive suggestions, or have a technical question about why the service failed on a particular day, Subtalk would be a good information source. If you have a complaint that you want to bring to the attention of the MTA, you should use the MTA website's customer service center (link).
Q: Can I discuss transit systems outside New York?
A: Yes. Boston, Washington, Philadelphia, Baltimore, Atlanta, and London regularly make appearances on Subtalk, and to a lesser extent Chicago, Los Angeles, and San Francisco. Another discussion board exists for the Chicago el: Message Board at Chicago-L.org. Subtalk has a number of posters resident in various cities around the U.S. and around the world.
Boston, MAAEM7, MBTA Vet, Nick, Todd Glickman, stevie, High St/Brooklyn, etc
Philadelphia, PAWDobner, David Cole, etc, etc.
Baltimore, MDJersey Mike, Dan Lawrence, etc, etc
Washington, DCWMATAGOAUGH, Mountain Maryland, etc, etc
London, GBBritish James, DStock7080, Max Roberts, David Fairthorne, etc, etc.
Tokyo, JPWado, etc, etc.
Q: Are there anymore questions?
A: No.
Q: Good. Now it's the time for a quiz.
AEM7
Thanks for the "arnine" stuff ... while I'm no RCI, Train Dude got his "paddle of edumication" on the arnines, therefore, he's OK in my book. Anyone who knows how to raise the magic longitudinal seat and turn the red handle correctly, as well as open the panel and flip the lock tab is OK in my book. :)
Not many on the railroad these days got a TRUE "trial by fire" ... Dude's proven to me that he's done it. Arnine style on the high seas - arrr-arrr they never ran on. (grin)
One correction re: Q: Has anyone ever been banned from Subtalk?
A: Yes, E_DOG, for trolling the board with racist remarks. This also led to a Subtalk hiatus while David repaired his servers due to a hardware failure.
Not totally correct.
The hiatus was directly due to the flamage caused by E_DOG. It was a "cooling off period" and Harry Beck's board was used to take up the slack.
I only say this because you KNOW E_Dog ... please pass along to him if you will that SOME of us "got it" ... :)
These include but are not limited to:
Why is there overhead catenary over part of PATH in NJ.
Why can't the LIRR use the Subwayy lines if it wanted.
Wasn't part of the Second Ave Subway Built?
When is (such and such) opening?
Wasn't there some sort of Grade crossing on an NYC Subway line?
Why can't they hook the PATH into the IRT?
etc etc.
Q. What is a 'hippo?'
A. An R68 or 68A subway car, built in 1986 and currently assigned to the B, D, N, Q, W and Franklin Shuttle lines. It's so nicknamed because of its inherent slowness on stretches of track that can support greater speeds by older equipment. Other alleged reasons is that, in the opinion of some people, the end of an R68 car resembles the face of said animal. Additionally, the loud, whining noise often eminating from the R68 in motion evokes image of said animal.
It is so nicknamed because of its PERCEIVED slowness. Ironically, the hippopotamus is a very fast animal, showing the ignorance of the term's author and many of its proponents.
Your other points make sense, but does a hippo really make that noise?
Chorus of Mud, Mud, Glorious Mud
A group of rebuilt R-30s were painted red as well, so they deserve honorable mention.
Also, several R-17s were painted red for cosmetic reasons at the same time the aforementioned cars were undergoing GOH. Since these R-17s were not part of the GOH program, IMHO they do not count as being true Redbirds. That said, if anyone wants to call Shoreline's 6688 a Redbird, I won't argue. Everyone has the right to have their own opinion.
I still think that your You Are An Idiot! is the best find. Did you have a look at the error messages on other pages on that site?
A: No, with the exception of the Pelham bay park bound 6 local announcemnts, the announcements identifying the train on each line are unique to that line and have a different person for each one.
I do visit Japan every year (grandparents want to see their grandson).
I visit Paris, France about every other year (godfather wants to see his godson).
I frequently visit transit related web sites of both countries (among others) to keep myself updated.
R-32/R-38 end signs: flip-dot
R-44/46/142/142A side signs: Liquid Crystal Display
R-142/142A/143 end signs and interior signs, R-143 side signs: Light Emmitting Diode arrays.
Metrocard Vending Machine screens: Cathode Ray Tube
Metrocard Express Machine screens: Liquid Crystal Display
Turstile, farebox, balance reader screens: Liquid Crystal Display
No wait, that's someone who's afraid of pantographs.
Mark
No, that's an artophobe. A pannophobe is someone who's afraid of a made-up Greek word.
(Perhaps he meant pantophobe - someone who's afraid of everything.)
So it's pantophobe and not panophobe? OK. Jersey Mike's list of words are all ones that I made up.
And some minor Attic orator probably did too. It's a good Greek word.
So it's pantophobe and not panophobe?
Yep - the stem of pas, pasa, pan is pant-.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
On SubTalk? I did, in reference to City Council members.
Arti
Little known google feature. When you search for a word, and it's underlined, click for the definition.
**********************************************************************
Whew! That didn't last long.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12152003.shtml#Indiana
**********************************************************************
Can anybody comment if these nominees are a goof faith effort to improve Amtrak or a more typical Republican plan to torpedo Amtrak?
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12152003.shtml#For
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
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Hmmmmm, there're not bias or anything as the chief equipment suppliers. Hmm, if Bombardier's financial sense is as good as the equipment they produce.....
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12152003.shtml#Fluor-Bombardier
I think we all forget(in this area), the incredible amounts of european tourists that come back,and complain and get confused at our road system, the incredible amts of domestic people in rental cars that are "out of their element". ANd commuters. The amts of traffic at any time makes that route anything but rural.
I can come up with so many marketing ideas and tie-ins, i can't even question it at this point.
Sounds like BBD is really trying desperate tactics in order to sell their JetTrain doonboggle. Besides, Florida is turning the whole thing into a boondoggle anyhow, what with a separated rail system whose top speed is supposed to be a mere 125 mph according to some reports…(in which case, all you need are Surfliners hauled by 125-mph “New Genesis” locomotives with GEVO prime-movers…)
Anyway, since the system has 0 dunding, it's not going to be built, and right now, I doubt the procurement process (or anything else about it) would stand up in court.
Latest word is the line (if it's ever built), will be double track and 'prepared for electric operation' (huh?), but 'initially' operated with gas turbine equipment. Which makes no sense, but neither does anythig else in the proposal.
makes perfect sense. FLHSR Authority wants fast trains that are double tracked. Why they are double-tracked in Phase one Segment II is beyond me. How many trains are they expecting to run in 40mile segments?
Bombardier has the jet-train, single tracked because in cheapo area's, this is the cheapest starter set you can buy. They want to make the proposal as cheap and cost effecitve as possible. If you try to sell them gold-plated tracks, people will bulk at the price. Plus the difference between diesel and electric in segment one is a mere four minutes. In Segment II to Miami, the difference is hours. Remember, that car gunning it at every red light isn't getting any further than you are, the same physics apply.
Now when the system is up and running between orlando and tampa, and is proving itself, it will get electrified so the trains can run down to Miami at 200mph, speeds no car can do without flipping over the median(which would've been nice for the 3 that did that on the turnpike in the last 2 weeks).
The game is to minimize capital expedidures before the line even runs. Plus, you aren't getting any time savings going 120mph and 180mph on a 67-something mile segment of track or road or airspace.
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http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12152003.shtml#Southeast
Two ridiculous proposals outlined in there (read: impossibilities)…first one getting the federal government to kick out $6 billion towards the infrastructure (what makes these people think that Congress will do that when they continually give a mere $1 billion on average to the existing national railroad, Amtrak), and the second one is having private operators run the line on their own dime, with no government subsidies, not to mention them using their own rolling stock and having to pay for their own FRA inspections to boot—this is total absurdity. Was it John Mica that sold them on the private operator with no subsidies idea?
If the HSR system and existing airport system can be integrated, you'd have huge customer base plus the financial resources of both modes and costs can be combined. There's no reason for air and rail to compete when you can code-share.
That's exactly what I've been wanting for years...a flight into Hartsfield and a transfer to a let's say, "DeltaRail" train to take me the rest of the way.
Mark
How would we avoid the problems on a lot of Amtrak routes that happens when passenger trains get stuck behind freight trains? Would simply four-tracking the lines do the trick so tha tthere could be two for passenger and two for freight? I don't know much about the actual operation of intercity freight or passenger rail, so pardon the seeming naivete of my question.
Mark
Congestion is a major issue at many of nation's hub airports. This is well documented in the literature. Problems occur at IAH, EWR, ORD, BOS, amongst others. And you can't really build your way out of the problem, since building airport is like building highways -- you can keep building and the peak demand will keep growing, and without some kind of pricing that aims to recover the cost of airports from the operators, the operator will keep scheduling in such a way that creates huge peak demands. In general it is not a very efficient use of resources.
For rail, the some regional government authority would own all of the rail stations, track and yards and they would simply charge a service provider slots for usage rights. Long-term leases can be negotiated for yards and repair facilities.
There are many wheel-rail interface issues that could cause problems (safety and otherwise) if the track owner is not also the train operator, especially if the track owner is public and therefore have an unlimited supply of money. For example, if a wheel skids on rail, a wheelflat is created. In cold weather, such wheel flat can accelerate the rate of rail breakages. If the track is publicly owned, there is no incentive for the private operator to take the damaged wheel out of service, resulting in higher maintenance costs for the track owner but lower operating costs for the operator.
And something else I just thought of, why should this new system be restricted to passengers? Freight railroads would gladly pay the slot fees in order to move their freight at high speeds. Downtown Atlanta alone sees 150 freight trains a day, that's a huge amount of freight that can be charged to use the new system. NS and CSX want that number to grow, so they would definitely support a system like this.
Freight travels most efficiently at low speeds. For example, in the Mississippi River Market, much coal, grain and chemicals (i.e. bulk commodities) move by ship rather than by rail. Power River Basin coal rarely travel at more than about 30mph. If you double the speed at which freight travels, you more than quadriple the energy requirements. For fast freight to work, the freight has to be valuable enough for the logistics cost saving to balance the additional energy, maintenance, and other expenditure associated with higher operating speeds. The likely markets for freights travelling at more than about 70mph is perhaps some of the intermodal market -- in competition with airfreight or overnight team drivers. The basic problem with competing against trucking is the ubiquity of the trucking network. One high-speed lane here and there against the thousands of highways out there isn't going to attract that much traffic, because transloading in itself is a cost and of the order of magnitude comparable to the logistics cost savings associated with higher speed for most general merchandize commodities.
That might help with the funding, too. In the old days, passenger rail was subsidized privately by the profits from the railroads' freight operations. (The passenger operations usually weren't profitable, but the feds made them offer passenger service until Amtrak was organized.) If the lines could haul freight, too, that could be a source of income to subsidize the passenger service.
In the old days, railroads were allowed to gouge captive shippers by looking at their balance sheets and figuring out exactly how to take all the surplus while keeping them in business. This resulted in the Interstate Commerce Act and created the first economic regulation authority. Today, freight railroads are finding it more and more difficult to compete with continued taxpayer capital investment in infrastructure (i.e. expressway widening) and freight no longer command the margins that were available when railroad was the only practical form of freight carriage.
Since the ROW owner controls the slots for trains, they would be like Air Traffic Control, they wouldn't favor one company's train over another. They'd have the entire network on computer screens and can schedule and route trains so that delays are minimal.
This is a non-trivial optimization problem and analysis has continually shown that delays are inevitable in a congested system (and optimization methods only serve to minimize, not eliminate them). Optimization system can also result in very uneven distribution of delays (so the optimal solution might be to remove one passenger train and save 20% delays systemwide -- or to remove one freight train and save 18% delays systemwide). In those cases the solution is optimal but not equitable. This will cause political outrage.
I don't profess to know all that much about freight operations or other aspects of this. In fact, only a small number of professionals truly know about this, and they only know because they have conducted a specific analysis. These questions are analytical, and you can only know the answer once you find out all the constraints and do the analysis. Generic oh it tends to be like this dribble is usually worthless, including my own contained in this post. There are some circumstances where fast freihgt may work, but those situations are few and far between.
By the way, an ocean example: Ever heard of the 30 knots "FASTSHIP"? Do you know what happened to them? The concept was invented in the 1950s when gas-turbine engines were all the rage.
AEM7
Coal and ore are the slowlest of the freight train types. Merchandise usually runs around 50 and intermodal 50-70 demending on where you are at. The long flat super railroads out on the plains and in the southwest really see the freight fly.
If you double the speed at which freight travels, you more than quadriple the energy requirements.
That depends on the terrian. In places where you can keep consistant speeds (like out west or on the NYC Main or in Ohio) speeds of 50 or 60 might be optimal. Trains have a very low coefficient of friction so once you get them moving you can notch down from about 8 to 3 or 4 or even less.
For fast freight to work, the freight has to be valuable enough for the logistics cost saving to balance the additional energy, maintenance, and other expenditure associated with higher operating speeds.
I don't think that for light intermodal loads the energy consumption is going to be all that much of an issue. Especially since trucks use about 400hp per trailer and interstates are known for using the cheapest (eg hilliest) land. Same goes for maintainence. A 125-unit roadrailer train moving at 50-70 is probably going to not even come close to the maintaince needed by a coal train moving at 30.
The likely markets for freights travelling at more than about 70mph is perhaps some of the intermodal market -- in competition with airfreight or overnight team drivers. The basic problem with competing against trucking is the ubiquity of the trucking network. One high-speed lane here and there against the thousands of highways out there isn't going to attract that much traffic, because transloading in itself is a cost and of the order of magnitude comparable to the logistics cost savings associated with higher speed for most general merchandize commodities.
The fact that intermodal volumes continue to rise past record levels seems to run contrary to your statement. As both fuel costs and highway congestion rise, not to mention labour costs, intermodal is going to look more and more attractive...that is of course unless the Teamsters kill it. I mean by your logic we should just shut down all the railroads and run trucks because they are "lower cost".
But if you went at 30mph, it will cost you less to accelerate it to 30mph and cost you less to keep it there. Perhaps once you accelerate it to 30mph, you can notch down to 1 or 2 rather than 3 or 4. That translate into big fuel and maintenance cost savings.
I don't think that for light intermodal loads the energy consumption is going to be all that much of an issue. Especially since trucks use about 400hp per trailer and interstates are known for using the cheapest (eg hilliest) land.
Railroad balance sheets generally show that fuel cost is about 20% of a railroad's cost, and crew cost can be somewhere between 30%-50%, while the other costs are less. This of course depends on how you do the accounting. Energy consumption is an issue because energy costs money (even though it is cheap in this country). Given that trucks are lighter, and the same truck could take a load from origin to destination, you will find in a fully-attributed energy analysis that trains are only more energy efficient for moves of more than about 20 containers at once. If you moved one container with one 4,000hp locomotive, that's 4,000hp per container. Even if you moved 20 containers with a 4,000hp locomotive, you need to remember all that excess weight you're tugging around, and that 300hp drayage tractor that you need to keep running around to get the freight to and from the railroad, and the extra mileage you clock up because of the circuity in railroad routings -- it's all going to cost you, in fuel and in real money.
Same goes for maintainence. A 125-unit roadrailer train moving at 50-70 is probably going to not even come close to the maintaince needed by a coal train moving at 30.
"Probably" is incorrect. It has been shown again and again in railroad research that the cost of maintenance on high-density lines is approximately linear with speed. (On low density lines, the cost is more than linear with speed because of weather-related damage). There is a reason why regionals like Guilford do not maintain their track to beyond Class 4 standards, and why Iowa Interstate can run a viable operation even though their prices are much much lower than their competitors'.
The fact that intermodal volumes continue to rise past record levels seems to run contrary to your statement.
Did you notice that intermodal rates have fallen in real terms consistently since the 1980s, while railroad wages and other railroad costs have outpaced inflation? Of course intermodal volumes have continued to rise. But has the revenues?
As both fuel costs and highway congestion rise, not to mention labour costs, intermodal is going to look more and more attractive...
I'm afraid not. Highway congestion has negligible effect outside urban areas, and intermodal relies on urban drayage anyway. The only basis on which intermodal can compete for more traffic is price, and if you price to the point that you can hardly cover your marginal costs of operation, you have problems.
Just so you know:
Rail rates declined. Average rail rates, adjusted for inflation, for Class I railroads decreased by 44% percent between 1984 and 2000 (STB, 2001).
I mean by your logic we should just shut down all the railroads and run trucks because they are "lower cost".
That is the logical result of decades of investment in interstate highways. If the government stopped all highway widening program, this may change. But as long as highway expansions keep pace with transportation demand, intermodal will continue to "not cut it". The age of intermodal growth is over.
AEM7
But if you went at 30mph, it will cost you less to accelerate it to 30mph and cost you less to keep it there. Perhaps once you accelerate it to 30mph, you can notch down to 1 or 2 rather than 3 or 4. That translate into big fuel and maintenance cost savings.
From what I have observed trains don't need much juice once they get up to speed. I have observed commuter train cabs traveling at 100mph and cab moving much slower and the one at 100 only needs a less than linear amount of extra power to stay at 100. Even tutch talks about running the trains mostly in notch 0-2 once he gets up to track speed. The problem lies with grade and curves that requires slowdowns and accelerations.
Given that trucks are lighter, and the same truck could take a load from origin to destination, you will find in a fully-attributed energy analysis that trains are only more energy efficient for moves of more than about 20 containers at once.
Then move 20 or more. NS recently got the FRA to up the limit on roadrailer train lengths from 120 to 150 unit because their trains were maxing out.
If you moved one container with one 4,000hp locomotive, that's 4,000hp per container. Even if you moved 20 containers with a 4,000hp locomotive, you need to remember all that excess weight you're tugging around,
So I guess that one truck cab per trailer don't count as excess weight.
"Probably" is incorrect. It has been shown again and again in railroad research that the cost of maintenance on high-density lines is approximately linear with speed
I wasn't taking about track I was talking about rolling stock maintainence.
I would think that having one driver per trailer would pump up labor costs, too. How many people are on the crew of a freight train hauling 150 piggy-back trailers? I'm not sure but I'm sure it's safe to say there are far fewer than 150 people on the crew of such a train.
Mark
Why bother improving an industry that fools can run, and success depends on luck? I made my choice in working for an industry in decline and in need of real expertise and analytical skills even to hold on to what we still have. The same could not be said for your industry, especially after the dot com bust. Too many fools, too little fools gold.
From what I have observed trains don't need much juice once they get up to speed.
True, but it will cost you dear to get up to speed.
Then move 20 or more.
How many factories or businesses do you know that ship 20 trucks per day to the same destination?
NS recently got the FRA to up the limit on roadrailer train lengths from 120 to 150 unit because their trains were maxing out.
Yes. In the meanwhile, another 1,200 to 1,500 units out there are moving in exactly the same lanes, on the parallel interstate highway.
So I guess that one truck cab per trailer don't count as excess weight.
Truck cab weight: about 5,000 lbs
Highway trailer weight: 2,000 lbs
Container weight: about 3,000 lbs
Payload: about 30,000 lbs
Payload-to-deadweight ratio: about 3:1
Train truck weight: about 3,000 lbs per truck, about one truck per container
Flatcar weight: about 15,000 lbs per flatcar section, about 3 containers per flatcar
Intermodal trailer weight (container plus highway gear): about 4,000 lbs per trailer
Locomotive weight: about 200,000 lbs, about 30 containers per locomotive
Payload: about 30,000 lbs
Payload-to-deadweight ratio: about 3:1.8
Of course, you can get better performance than this both in trucks and in intermodal. But these are (I believe) typical numbers. The only reason rail has any advantage at all is because rail has far lower rolling contact resistance, lower overall labor costs, and some commodities simply don't need to be moved as fast as a truck can go.
It has been shown again and again in railroad research that the cost of maintenance on high-density lines is approximately linear with speed...
I wasn't taking about track I was talking about rolling stock maintainence.
Take a look at the UP budget. Notice that UP spends about four times as much per year on track maintenance as it does on rolling stock maintenance.
How many people are on the crew of a freight train hauling 150 piggy-back trailers? I'm not sure but I'm sure it's safe to say there are far fewer than 150 people on the crew of such a train.
Few than 150 people, but more than 2 people. For each intermodal train dispatched, a team of draymen has to be employed to bring the trailers to the terminal; a team of dockmen has to be employed to load these trailers. Trains require dispatchers and yardmasters to move. In addition, railroad labor is paid much better than truckers (average trucker annual income: about $25,000 to $35,000; average railroad employee, all labor classifications: between $35,000 and $60,000.) The labor saving is important, but not as dramatic as at first glance.
Two people make up the crew of a train. The same as a single team driven trailer truck.
Classic mistake. Don't forget the rest of the people that make the train move.
AEM7
But the way you talk about it the rail industry is failing due to the inherrant superriority of other transportation modes. If other modes are cheaper and faster and more conveinent why not just abandon railroads.
True, but it will cost you dear to get up to speed.
But if you only have to get up to speed in Illinios before having to get down to speed in Colarado that represents are significant savings.
How many factories or businesses do you know that ship 20 trucks per day to the same destination?
Yes. In the meanwhile, another 1,200 to 1,500 units out there are moving in exactly the same lanes, on the parallel interstate highway.
You just contradicted yourself. The 1,200 to 1,500 units are moving to the same destinations en aggragate.
Classic mistake. Don't forget the rest of the people that make the train move.
The rest of the people are fixed costs that can be paid for by gouging the captive rail shippers. Intermodal can then compete on a marginal cost basis.
Correction:
How many factories or businesses do you know that ship 20 trucks per day to the same destination at the TAZ (traffic analysis zone) level?
Yes. In the meanwhile, another 1,200 to 1,500 units out there are moving in exactly the same lanes, on the parallel interstate highway, on an "intermodal hinterland" (metro area to metro area, or BEA to BEA) level.
AEM7
CG
Federal infrastructure support hasn't prevented any number of airlines from going out of business.
Now I watched on TV, since I used to live in Mica's district, his election "dialog/debate" with his opponent. It was the most disgusting thing, before I found out his transportation stance, I didn't want either of the two to ever win.
Anyhow, I'm surprised this is all of a sudden in USA today since it's kinda old news. Trains don't run that fast. Hopefully it'll all be upgradeable.
Problem is, they got an intercity travel problem, the roads aren't working the way they used to. And adding all those lanes everyyear, costs way more than upgrading them tracks.
I did wonder about a comment that one naysayer put forth"
Even if there was a market for high-speed rail, which there is not, this is not high-speed. Its too slow to get anybody out of his or her cars. When you consider getting to the station, going through security, then getting in and out of a cab to get to your destination, theres no advantage at all.
1. Security? Has this guy ever ridden a train before? What security?
2. You have to drive through town to your destination anyway, so what's the big deal about taking a cab when you get there?
That said, I think irishcheiftain raised some very valid concerns with the funding scheme...getting the initial $6 billion from the feds will be tough, plus no form of passenger transportation in this country operates without public subsidy, not air, not rail, not auto. The question of speed should be taken seriously, too. If we're starting from scratch, laying new tracks and everything, let's build a a proper high-speed rail system. I realize Acela is slow because it has to operate through ROW that was never intended to see modern high-speed trains. But a brand new system will have no such constraints. Pull the stops out and let the trains fly!
Mark
The speed definitely needs to be increased by a lot. If Germany has trains doing up to 300 km/h in an area the size of GA, AL and MS, we need need to match that or do better for the amount of states this would cover. Sure, the system doesn't have to perform 300 km/h the whole time, there needs to be ROWs that can do at least double or triple the speed of existing freight and highways 75% of the time.
Mark
I believe just the increased freight traffic alone could pay for the system. Some truck freight would move to rail since they can ship the goods faster. If the freight companies can make a profit on owning and operating "slow" lines, they could make money just being operators and while the ROW owners make money by charging user fees.
Mark
Mark
I realize Acela is slow because it has to operate through ROW that was never intended to see modern high-speed trains
Actually, the Acela Express is slow because it has to operate on undermaintained and not-enough-money-given-for-upgrading ROW. (In fact, Congress shorted the Acela upgrade project by $2.4 billion, cutting approximately in half the $5 billion that was promised – and then the new FRA regs in regards to “crashworthiness” were slapped on top, exacerbating the cost and practicality of the trainsets. However, should the NEC be upgraded at least on the NY-WAS segment, the AE could do a lot of 150-mph running. I don’t see too much hope of faster running on the NY-BOS segment, not unless MNR/CDOT’s signals get upgraded and a narrower tilting high-speed trainset arrives on the scene…)
Anyway, as far as that comment goes, NO, that guy has never ridden in a train before. The professional anti-rail lobby never has, that's why their arguements are less than flimsy.
I remember reading somewhere, if you average the whole airline network, with the spoke and hub system, factor in driving to the airport, parking, security, and transferring, picking up baggage and coming to your destination, the total commerical jet system averages 88mph.
You may think it takes 2.5 hours to get from FL to the NE, but it's more like 6-7.
You may think it takes 2.5 hours to get from FL to the NE, but it's more like 6-7.
Yes, especially when you're not travelling to or from a city with an airport and have to add an hour or two fo highway driving.
If the figure of 88 mph is correct, it might not be so low if air travel were used only for the long cross-country trips, the niche that air does best. It's those short trips, which are often shorter than the ground travel to and from the airport itself, that produces such low averages. If that sort of travel were done using high speed rail instead, air travels averages would go up.
Mark
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Hmmm, interesting redevelopment plan to take the part of the city most able to benefit from a new Union Station and to turn it into a barren field.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12152003.shtml#Denver
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Hey Selkirk, is this another station courtesy State Senate Chair Joe Bruno?
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12152003.shtml#Saratoga
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Wow, its not everyday you see a Trails to Rails project.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12152003.shtml#Greenbush
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Sheesh, its dead already. No need to break the tombstone and burry it upside down.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12152003.shtml#Dulles
"What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing." [Oscar Wilde]
Considering Maryland just lost the traditional boundary of the states on the Potomac River. Since before the US was born, Maryland's southern boundary was the south bank of the Potomac. The two states have been bickering for 200 plus years, and a recent court decision (after 25 years of back-and-forth) ruled that the boundary is in the middle of the river.
Maryland isn't feeling too happy with our neighbor to the south right now, plus we already pay too much to support WMATA, based on the Maryland mileage. The rest of the state needs transit dollars too.
I don't know enough to argue the merits, and I can certainly see Maryland's point of view. I was merely amused by the cost/benefit analysis, in which the benefit is supposedly unknown ("priceless"), quite a common situation in reality.
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Hmmm, does him failing to mention the Jets and Giants imply that he has given up keeping them in the state?
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12152003.shtml#Spur
What price Sharpe James pork palace in Newark then?!
The money for the arena has come from the Port Authority, via a new lease on Newark Airport from the city of Newark.
Now the Yankee-Nets consortium is being dissolved, one of the bidders for the Nets will take the team to an as-yet-unbuilt arena in Brooklyn.
December 16th Article in NY Times.
Newsday article, which indicates that the Newark Arena is dead.
So I wonder what the money is being used for. Port Authority Press Relase with Lease Details
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Arti
Moving the team to Newark would be a disaster. The town empties out after dark and you don't want to be walking around there at night anyway. The best solution would be to move the team to Hoboken that way you would have access to the Path and Hoboken is fairly safe with a nightlife.
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Ooo, let's all pray they buy EMD. Those new SD-70's are hot stuff.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12152003.shtml#NS
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I have always been advocating that railroads should take a more active effort in trying to lure the bukly and oddball shipments in which they excell off the highways. I would hope that the railroads can now grab a larger chunk of the market in long distance movement of new fire trucks, trailer cabs, RV's, busses, etc, etc. I mean not only does driving a new vehicle accross the country for delivery sort of ruin the "newness" and waste gas, there is probably a greater risk of damage than sticking it on a flat car.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12152003.shtml#NS
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12152003.shtml#Railroads
From my website, with scans of the ad and brochure
And now at transitgallery
Thanks, and sorry about the ad on the top of the page on my site. Haven't been able to reupgrade my package so i can get my space back and be banner free.
This suprecedes the 'old rule ' of three (3) car lengths or to the end of the platform whichever is shorter. (Effective Immediatley)
What else would they do? Read a newspaper?
Elias
No no no~! Not at all. The reading light is provides so that you can read your RULE BOOK. Why else would they may you carry it 24/7 if not to read it. After all, it would make a losey door stop.
(Though if the comfort station were out of paper, you could....)
Elias
A real shame. I much prefer eliminating the C/R Position all together and just install cctv cameras at all stations with in cab monitors for the train operator. The T/O would have a view of the entire platform for the entire time the train leaves the station. Sensors on the car could even be used to turn of camera views of parts of the platform where the train has cleared
New state of the are difital IP based wireless cctv cameras are now available which reduced installation cost dramatically. The camera's only require a power source and nothing else.
David
--Mark
Most folks on the platforms don't notice the "fickle finger of fate" move, but you're probably right - they probably WOULD go for something like that. My apologies. :(
Stupid, stupid, stupid. Like I said, at least the "fickle finger of fate" move is largely unknown to the public and is nowhere near as OBVIOUS. Good thing I ain't with the TA anymore - I'd just hit the PTT before my partner had a chance when the ball lit up and say, "Yo! I got da hookup!" (grin)
I have never noticed it before, because I always rode in the FRONT of the train. When I did watch, it was sort of a lackadasical gesture, almost (at one stop) as an after thought, as if he pointed because he saw me watching him.
Now when I was in Japan...
The motorman would point his finger and hollar out something in Japanese that I could hear but not understand. I presemed he was offering a prayer. A rough translation ught to have been: "HI I HAVE A GREEN LIGHT". He said it out loud and his gesture was styilsed and obvious.
Elias
I didn't think you were hunting wabbits.:)
T/O: Moo. Hey, Bob.
C/R: Hey, Larry. Moo.
T/O: So are we straight as to which side to open up on?
C/R: Moo. Yeah, we're cool.
T/O: Moo.
And what is a "door enabler"?
CG
Having readers and transponders both on the train and on the platform would generate a 'hand shake' and would also tell the platform announcemets what train was in the station.
Elias
1) The Board assurs that the train is all the way into the station, and that he, the conductor, is looking at the correct platform.
2) POINTING at the board reminds the conductor to actually look to see if the board is really there, and that he is in the correct position to open the doors.
3) If he still makes a mistake and opens the doors before the train is fully in the station, or opens the doors where there is no platform, he can not make the excuse "I thought..." (whatever the #@(( he was thinking). The Boss will say: "YOU DID NOT POINT AT THE BOARD, go directly downtown, pee in a cup, and do not collect $200.00"
A Door enabler is under the control of the mottorman. So now if there is an error, they both get to pee in the cup, and do not collect $400.00
Elias
It is the C/Rs that will be gone.
Elias
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/SUBWAYS/Franklin%20Ave%20station/franklin.html
#3 West End Jeff
The only place in New York City that actually scared me was Red Hook, and that from way way back. The South Bronx merely unsettled me.
#3 West End Jeff
--Mark
Where did Cudahy say this? I can't find it in his Malbone book, where he says that "[b]ecause time signals now limit the speed of trains coming down the speed of trains coming down the hill from Crown Heights, the 1974 derailment was more of an inconveinece than a tragedy [...]"
And how slow is "dead slow" anyway? Dead slow (or "dead ahead") is a nautical term meaning about as slow as you can go and still be moving. I found one definition as about 6 feet per minute. Now that's slow. But as applied to the subway I would expect it to be no faster than the standard slow speed on the BMT, which was 6 miles per hour.
I can't find any details at all on this wreck, including on the accidents list on this site, where it is not even mentioned during 1974. I'm sure it was investigated. Was cause ever established?
Cudahy doesn't elaborate on "dead slow", but your suggestion that it was no faster than the standard slow speed on the BMT, 6 mph, is likely accurate.
Perhaps the accident list on this site doesn't mention it, but I have it listed in my NYCTA in the 1970s article in the section near the bottom titled "Fires, Derailments and Accidents". A cause was indeed established:
On December 1st, 1974, a southbound train of R-32s on the Franklin Avenue Shuttle derailed in nearly the same spot and hit the same wall as a doomed elevated train that was the Malbone Street Wreck on November 1st, 1918. The first truck of the first car negotiated the switch to the northbound track near the portal properly, but the second truck did not, staying on the southbound track. The switch had moved under the train because it was hand cranked and not clamped down into position. Car 3669 was damaged and could not be repaired. Service was suspended for a few hours, and single-track operation was run at night. Service was fully restored the next day.
While I don't have it handy, I am sure that my source for that was the NY Division Bulletin from February 1975.
--Mark
That's really unusual. "Hand cranked" to me means that it would have been moved manually, like a yard switch, but that was an automatic switch from day one. If the second truck of 3669 stayed cleanly on the O1 track rather than derailing it implies that the switch was moved under the train rather than that the switch shifted somehow.
The significant damage to 3669 is why I question the "dead slow" assessment. If the M/M was crawling I would have expected him to hit emergency when he realized his car was not straightening on the O2 track before such severe damage occured.
--Mark
Article
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/16/nyregion/16SECA.html
--IslesFan
--Z--
David
If the LIRR couldn't run in wet weather, we would have a basket case of a railroad on our hands everytime we got rain. Unless we get rain on the scale of Noah's Ark, the LIRR can handle it.
I also find it mighty odd that the voice of the 5 does station ID announcements on the new lots branch when the 4 is the one that runs there on the more regular basis.
Yes it is the voice of the 5:
File 1
File 2
File 3
4- Monotonous, and pitch does not vary much. Compare "Franklin avenue" to "President street"
5- Lively, and her pitch and tone does vary greatly.
The recent addition to the 6
The 5 on new lots
Another example of the 5's tonal variation
An announcement with only the 4 voice speaking
"This is an Eastchester-bound <5> express train."
sounds a lot like
"This is a Manhattan-bound <4> express train."
But when she recorded...
"This is a New Lots Avenue-bound <5> express train."
...she put a bit more energy into it.
What does everyone else think?
Witness the several NOT IN SERVICE 5 trains running from E 180th Street to Bowling Green in the PM. Many 5 trains in the AM and PM come from NLTS to begin with. Many of the <5> trains come right out of New Lots yard and run in service to 239th Street yard. If you want to see some 5 trains heading to the Bronx from New Lots, you would be better going to New Lots between 3:00-5:30 PM
The 4 uses NLTS to lay up most of the trains at night, while the 5 uses it to lay up for the next rush hour period.
----
Westchester yard didn't pull the 4 trains that were running on the 6 el (that GO a few months back) into it's yard, so why does New lots do it.
----
The (4) trains don't run on the (6) line on a regular basis, the (4) goes to New Lots every day, the (5) and <5> trains regularly(scheduled) go to New Lots/Utica on the weekdays.
David
Didn't they ever teach you about over-exaggeration? If they NEVER make the return trip to the Bronx, the 4 and 5 would be short on equipment.
New lots isn't home to the 4 or 5, and having trains all over the place makes it easier to have a "lost train", that isn't at its home yard and someone has to think "Hmmm, maybe it's at new lots".
The schedule takes all this into account. Trains are scheduled to go to New Lots and scheduled to come back out. The same intervals do it every day.
Why should the trains be sent back uptown if service is adequate without them? If NYCT is going to spend money to run more trains, shouldn't that money go toward service that's actually needed somewhere?
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/16/nyregion/16SECA.html
The PDF on the web site is at least one revision out of date.
How about subway stations? Were there any stations that totally missed the mark, in terms of size or otherwise, and had to be redesigned?
My vote goes to Times Square on the 1904 IRT route. Despite the fact that the Times had just moved there and many Broadway theaters were moving uptown from the Herald Square area, the planners made it a mere local stop. It was changed to an express stop before very long.
Any others?
That was gonna be my choice. It seems pretty obvious to me. A station that served a shuttle from nowhere to a few blocks away from nowhere. Nice museum, though.
:-) Andrew
1. Times Square - Contract One line.
2. Court Street - Fulton. That station never outgrew it's "shuttle status". Built as the terminal for the Fulton locals, it was soon discovered that it was stupid to not send the locals to Manhattan. The IND idea of only sending expresses to manhattan was ill-conceived. Court Street never was a "mainline" station, although was originally supposed to be.
3. City Hall and all the local stations on the original 1904 subway. They were way underbuilt. they instantly needed to be extended. They were not designed to handle the crowds that came. City Hall was unextendable; a beautiful station but a boondoggle.
4. This sort of plays on the IRT local stations, but seperate the local platforms at Brooklyn Bridge, Union Square, and 96th St were a total waste of time. They were so useless that they were only used from 1904 to 1910, a mere 6 years. They were too short, just like all the local station platforms, and deemed unnecessary to extend in 1910, when the first wave of platform extensions came to the Contract One line.
5. 42nd Street/8th, Lower Level. What a useless station.
Honorable Mention:
Bergen St lower level. Bergen's express platform is a causualty of the IND's ill-conceived idea again of not designing locals to go to Manhattan. The use of the lower level would mean that all locals feed into the Crosstown line, and those people wouldn't have direct Manhattan access. This design made Bergen useless from the beginning, as the express was useless from the beginning, if running just one local (G), and one express (F).
:-) Andrew
In Brooklyn, the Fulton and Crosstown lines cross underneath the IRT under Flatbush Avenue. What's significant about this? It bisects the provisions for IRT Manhattan Bridge trackage that would have used the lower level at Nevins.
If the lower level there was no impediment to the IND, the lower level at 42nd would be no impediment to the IRT.
Future candidate: SAS :-P
Grand St. (Christie St.)
Well.....they at least look obsolete.
Bill "Newkirk"
www.forgotten-ny.com
I do not remember what the complexities were!
They didn't count on the people scrambling from one platform to the other.
Altantic Avenue (IRT) in brooklyn was designed the same way to accommodate the foot-traffic generated by the LIRR at Flatbush terminal, but I wonder if the load there ever really warranted the similar design to Manhattan's RR station subway stops.
And the south underpass between the express and NB local platforms is closed nights and weekends, for no reason whatsoever. A week and a half ago on Sunday, all trains were running local, but as I had entered from the south, I had to go up to the express platform, walk a block, and cross under to reach them.
#3 West End Jeff
Also Grand Central on the 3rd Av El.
If you are going to add Broadway Ferry, you need to add Driggs Ave too, also on the original end of the Broadway El. I guess it could sort of count because it was obsolete when it was fairly new. It was built in 1888, but became obsolete in 1908 when the WillyB opened to train traffic. It did get a good 20 years of "real" use though, unlike stations like Court St where it was banished to shuttle service right from the beginnning, or 42nd St lower which seems completely useless from day one.
Many stations may have been obsolete the day they opened, but this one hurts the most today.
-Jeff
This station was mentioned about a dozen times however...
It's all about a group of friends who visited every station in the entire DC Metrorail system in one day. Rather interesting, indeed.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Mark
p.s.--I had my plan beginning at Shady Grove and ending at either Branch Avenue or Vienna---I haven't decided which plan to go with yet.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Based on what I saw on my photo shoot a couple of weekends ago Morgan Boulevard and Largo Town Center will open before New York Avenue. But I would not put it past WMATA opening all three stations on the same day.
John
Let me know in advance so I can take some time off to go. It is pretty obvious that it would have to be done on a weekday.
I am think about taking off the last week on October next year and use a couple of the those days to make a pilgrimage to New York.
Mark
p.s.--I had my plan beginning at Shady Grove and ending at either Branch Avenue or Vienna---I haven't decided which plan to go with yet.
Did anybody here notice the date that this little adventure took place?
John
what's the significance of the date?
Mark
Friday, March 29, 2002
26th anniversary of first day of revenue operations.
John
Mark
Though their idea of getting bus transfers and a photograph was a great way to verify that they were actually there. LOL and that robot is hilarious.
Robert
Bill "Newkirk"
Would it be possible to install rubber wheels on the NYC subway system? If not completely rubber, then just lined with rubber on the outside?
Guess not =(
Why don't they just connect the rails on the ouside of the track, so the wheel just harmlessly passes over it, rather than the inside, where the wheel strikes the connecting joint?
There are effective noise reduction techniques that can be used for rail transit. NYCT just doesn't use them despite being under a legal mandate to reduce noise levels. The standard for express noise in a local station is 90 dbA. This is the level at which prolonged exposure will result in permanent hearing loss.
Try standing on the BMT 49th Street platform in Manhattan.
Ain't no noise there~
Elias
If I understand what my father keeps trying to tell me about them there was a steel wheel with a rubber insert, covered by another steel ring.
So from the axel, three discs: two of steel with rebber in between.
Elias
David
I could tell that from NYCT rush hour service levels.
The Paris figures are:
Line: Service Level (tph)
1: 40
2: 20
3: 26
3 bis: 20
4: 40
5: 26
6: 30
7: 30
7 bis: 20
8: 24
9: 30
10: 20
11: 24
12: 23
13: 30
14: 30
The only line with ATO is 14. All the others still have operators and a block system. They don't even have positive speed control. That's reserved for the RER A, not the RATP.
Less than 2 minutes: ATO mandatory
2-4 minutes: T/O's choice
More than 4 minutes: Manual driving mandatory
This is to keep the T/Os familliar with manual driving in case it becomes necessary. They still keep the track side signals for manual driving and also have cab signals that duplicate them.
Lines 3bis, 7bis and 10 do not have ATO as their train frequency never goes under 2 minutes.
Where did you get that figures from? How old are they?
I have been searching the web for Paris Metro frequencies but could only find one site at geocities -> "Paris Mtro early 1990s: Monday-Friday Winter Frequencies".
Thanks.
Lisez-le vous-meme.
Also, in Montreal the rubber wheels require the entire system to be underground because of the snow, which is very expensive. Any outdoor sections would require the greater effort and cost to keep the tire ways clear of snow, and problem that does not exist for metal wheeled trains, but does exist for buses and other rubber-wheeled vehicles.
I didn't realize there were such huge differences between the USA and Canada. The snow is free in South Jersey. :)
The higher maintenance costs come from the rubber tires alone. Tires have to be replaced very frequently. Also, they are filled with nitrogen rather than air because of the fire hazard.
Also, in Montreal the rubber wheels require the entire system to be underground because of the snow, which is very expensive
This has not prevented elevated and surface sections of the Paris Metro to be pneued.
One advantage of rubber tires is that they permit steeper grades. This is results in lower tunneling costs than for a conventional steel rail system.
OTOH, I remember the reply from the curator of the Musee des Transports Urbaines to a question I posed back in 1967. I was amazed to see that most of the original Metro equipment was still running. I asked him whether it was expensive to run such old equipment. Yes, he replied, but not quite as expensive as the pneus.
The rubber traction friction n also make the Montreal metro hotter - like the IRT isn't hot enough!
Neat reply from Paris - I always wondered why the MTA couldn't just rebuild the old equipment instead of just replacing it, but probably Paris maintained it all better and didn't have to worry about long-term rusting from deferred maint.
acceleration 4.9 mph/sec
I'd settle for the Bluebird's 4.0.
The joining brackets for non-welded rails never ever come in contact with the flanges. Flanges are not designed to carry a vertical load and do not protrude down anywhere near the web of the rail (the thin vertical bit). Flange contact with the bracket would probably destroy a wheel immediately or derail a train. The noise comes from the small gap in the rails.
What would your solution be to making the system quieter?
There isn't a single solution there are many. Reduce the noise source and reduce its transmission. There are two principal transmission modes: through air and through the structure (vibration).
The easiest way to reduce air transmission is to place a sound barrier/deflector between the source and the listener. You will notice that sound can travel unhindered from the express tracks to a listener on the local platforms in most stations. Another way is to add sound absorbtion to the walls and ceilings. Tile and cement, materials preferred for subway station design, do not absorb sound vary well.
One way to reduce the transmission of vibrations is to isolate the vibratory path with springs (rubber mounts). Tracks should rest on rubber pads. The ties should rest on a resilient material. The roadbed, itself should be acoustically isolated from the rest of the station (it should rest on rubber). Noise sources should similarly be isolated - motor mounts, rubber couplings between wheels and the axle, etc. The major problem is that rubber loses its elasticity with age. That's why most equipment, including the PCC, becomes noisy with age.
There's also the possibility of eliminating the noise source. Linear motors are quieter than rotary motors. The AirTrain system is about 10 dbA quieter than a conventional LRV.
David
A single spring mount is not very effective. One really needs two or more spring couplings for effective attenuation. I thought I made that clear.
The ties are encased in concrete and vibrate through to the roadbed. If the ties were also isolated from the concrete resilient neoprene, there would be significantly more noise reduction - 30 dbA. Another apprach that is often taken is to lay the roadbed on top of a neoprene layer.
The current system with its bare concrete surface and drainage channel reflects nearly all the sound from above. It also acts like a sounding board for for vibrations from the tracks.
Hmmmmm...
Do you think partitions should be build between the express and local tracks, only in stations?
On second thought, that might be a bad idea, because it would hamper evacuation.
I like the idea of having the tracks resting on rubber pads.
Or, the TA could set up a glass partition between the local tracks and the platform. Train doors would be aligned with the doors on the partition.
(See more details on Kawasaki website, here. Unfortuately, this would be VERY susceptible to vandalism.
Julian
P.S. Sorry about the Flash doodad
That's the only place where they would be needed. They need be only 5 feet high at most. Their purpose would be to place the local station platform in an acoustic shadow for all noise generated at track level.
But now to stop the vandalism on them...
I also learned that Seashore owns the trolley currently parked at Boyleston and painted for Boston Elevated Railway -- I think, 4753 was the number.
Clearly the MBTA in the past has made an effort to preserve its transit equipment. Does anyone know if this is still the case? Based on my experience at Riverside, I don't really see much junk lying around on MBTA property anymore. Does this mean the Type 3 and Type 4's would have gone somewhere? If so, does anyone know where they are now?
AEM7
0210 is the Type 3 Main Line el Car I meant.
The 03xx (Type 4) cars don't seem to be there, I am assuming that the T got rid of those. I am glad a pair of #10's made it up there, although when I was last up there I didn't see 'em...
AEM7
The "#4" cars are from what is now the Red Line:
0709 Boston, MA 1927 Osgood-Bradley Car Co. 72 DE #4 Cambridge-Dorchester RT 1988
0719 Boston, MA 1927 Osgood-Bradley Car Co. 76 DE #4 Cambridge-Dorchester RT 1970
0749 Boston, MA 1927 Osgood-Bradley Car Co. 72 DE #4 Cambridge-Dorchester RT 1989
0753 Boston, MA 1927 Osgood-Bradley Car Co. 72 DE #4 Cambridge-Dorchester RT 1988
0754 Boston, MA 1927 Osgood-Bradley Car Co. 72 DE #4 Cambridge-Dorchester RT 1988
Here's a direct link to the list of Seahore's entire collection.
On the outbound outer track are maintenance-of-way cars, that vary from time-to-time. There is a switch to access that track.
Ok, then this is what I've seen being switched around then. -Nick
I will try again on Wednesday or Thursday.
We stayed at a motel on Fairfax Avenue, north of Wilshire Blvd, across from the Farmer's Market and CBS Studios.
The farmer's market was downsized several years ago so that an upscale outdoor mall called "The Grove" could be built on the adjacent land. The stores include Barnes and Noble, Abercombie and Fitch, Nordstrom's and other fancy stores could be build.
Down the center of the street runs a two level custom built trolley. It runs on rails and is battery powered. The trucks are from an old Boston PCC and it uses hydraullic disc brakes. It has a single controller and the reverser key is an actual key (not a wrench look-a-like) that fits into a keyhole on the operators panel. The deadman's switch is actually a foot-pedal that must be kept down at all times.
There is only one trolley. It comes out of the barn, makes a right and proceeds south for about 1/4 mile. Very dull run. They were going to put in two spring switches so that two trolleys could pass each other in the center of the mall but when they found out how much one trolley would cost to build, out went the spring switches.
At one point they must cross a street and the warning light is in the middle of a dish suspended from a light pole and swings back and forth while red.
Once I explained that I belong to Shoreline and have run trolleys they were willing to talk a little more as time permitted. They were jealous that we can get our stuff up to 25 MPH on a straight away and that we have switches, sidings and such.
-Robert King
Streetcar is the better term. It covers every type of steet railway vehicle - horse, cable or electric.
Unfortunately I couldn't find the place, the brouchure with the map completely sucked when I was last in the area.
Hopefully you got some pics. I wanted to see the trolleys and how they got that place set-up.
Mark
As has previously been mentioned, it will not be a long or interesting ride, so don't expect too much. Best of luck.
I've been on it several times, and it is fun, even if it's not a PCC car, Red Car, or even an old LA Railways yellow car.
If there are enough people interested, I can probably lean on some friends at Rutgers to organize something in Piscataway, but thats not Manhattan by a long shot.
No, only one point; it's a big target. Hit Sir John Holmes, you win a cee-gar.
This has got to be a security issue but how to prove it.
Those are supposed to be available only to MTA employees.
We don't need T/O wannabes out there.
--Mark
Anyway these are the ebay rules (thanks to SubwayAl)
"Attention Sellers: Transportation Uniforms/Equipment
Please be aware that eBay has strict regulations regarding any article of clothing or identification relating to transportation security or employment with any transportation related industry, including but not limited to, articles of commercial airline pilot's uniforms, flight attendant uniforms, baggage or airport service uniforms, mass transit train or subway related uniforms. This also includes any official internal, non-public documents, manuals or other materials related to mass commercial public transportation, including internal manuals put out by commercial airlines, or entities operating subways, trains or buses. Vintage or obsolete items may be sold so long as the item description clearly states that the item is at least 10 years old, is no longer in use by the airline and is an obsolete uniform or official manual/document. These policies are very strict and not adhering to them could cause your auctions to be ended. Repeated violations and disregard for these policies will result in the suspension of your account. This policy can be viewed in full through the following URL:
http://pages.ebay.com/help/community/png-government.html?fromFeature=Sell%20Your%20Item "
I had fowarded a copy of the ebay policy to the seller (again thanks to SubwayAl for providing the text of the policy). The seller wrote back to me admitting that he wasn't aware of the policy and immediately ended the auction once he read it.
Not much there that hasn't already been discussed here...
Gov. Pataki (PATURKEY!) is making the dedication. Open to the public starting at 2:00 PM. Free rides until midnight.
Also worth taking a look at is the MTA's page on JFK Airtrain at:
http://www.mta.info/mta/airtrain.htm
The MTA's page claims that some airlines will check luggage (actually luggate -- the MTA bungles the spelling at least twice) at the airport, which is something I hadn't seen confirmed.
Happy riding everyone.
CG
Sweet! I'll be there!
1. According to the A train instructions, what should I do if the train is marked "Rockaway Park"? (sarcastically)
2. So in reference to the J and Z, they run every 10 to 20 minutes on evenings and weekends? I thought the Z ran only during AM and PM rush.
If you can comprehend a subway map, you take the Rockaway Park train. If you're a complete idiot, you wait a few minutes for a Far Rockaway train. Since there are only five Rockaway Park trains a day, I doubt it will be much of an issue.
2. So in reference to the J and Z, they run every 10 to 20 minutes on evenings and weekends? I thought the Z ran only during AM and PM rush.
Yes, the E *OR* J *OR* Z run every 5-10 minutes during rush hours and 8-12 minutes (not 10 to 20) evenings and weekends. It doesn't specifically say the Z runs evenings and weekends. Someone waiting at Essex St on a Saturday afternoon is going to look for a J *OR* a Z (or just read the sign over the platform explaining the Z only runs rush hours); they're not going to decide to wait for a Z. Another non-issue.
Get on and get off at Howard Beach!
Anyhow, yay, free rides tomorrow!
http://www.mta.info/mta/airtrain.htm
http://www.panynj.com/pr/pressrelease.php3?id=457
If he shows up. For the PATH Exchange Place and WTC re-openings, he was scheduled to speak but didn't show.
Though he did visit Thursday, November 20. "Awful case of the flu," eh?
Stay tooned!
Thursday evening I'll be back at Howard Beach to witness the obscenities.
Haven't the MTA heard of that useful feature in most word processing packages called the Spell Check? There is an exceptionally small village in East Lothian, Scotland, called Luggate Burn, but I do not expect that to figure.
Posted on:12/16/03 1:24:40 PM
Due to a fire at 205th Street and 10th Avenue, 1 subway service is suspended between Van Cortlandt Park/242nd Street and 168th Street in both directions until further notice.
BTW,
Station announcments were saying take the A train to 207 for a shuttle bus to the #1 for a shuttle train.
RIP, and I hope that he is the only one.
Kudos to those involved for getting this information out to the public, even on connecting lines.
Why can't 1's run up to Dyckman and relay on the middle track? Power shut off, or too much smoke?
That's what I was just thinking...
Da Hui
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Subject
---------------------------------------------------------------
About the New Manhattan Bridge Service Pattern in Feb 2004
Discussion Thread
---------------------------------------------------------------
Response (Antonio Ligonde) - 12/16/2003 02:18 PM
This is in response to your recent e-mail to MTA New York City Transit regarding
several transit-related suggestions.
We truly appreciate your interest in New York City Transit and your many
suggestions. Please be aware that the construction on the Manhattan Bridge by
the New York City Department of Transportation (NYCDOT) and, before that, by the
New York State Department of Transportation (NYSDOT) has reduced capacity and
disrupted subway operations on the Manhattan Bridge since 1986. Although the
Manhattan Bridge has two pairs of tracks connecting Brooklyn and Manhattan,
since 1986 New York City Transit (NYCT) has only been able to use one of the two
pairs at any given time. Currently, the pair connecting Brooklyn with the
Broadway Line is open, while the pair connecting Brooklyn with the 6th Avenue
Line is closed.
Furthermore, during the current phase of construction, the Manhattan Bridge is
closed to all subway service on weekends, so that NYCDOT can undertake the final
phase of the work necessary to complete the rehabilitation. These weekend
closures have lengthened travel times for weekend customers form Bay Ridge who
normally take an R train and transfer to the Q at the DeKalb Avenue station for
service over the Manhattan Bridge.
Although subject to change, NYCT plans to operate 6th Avenue and Broadway
service via the bridge beginning in February 2004. At that time, service will
change, with the N express service to Broadway being rerouted via the Manhattan
Bridge at all times except late nights and the D express service to 6th Avenue
replacing the current W train.
At all times, including nights and weekends, riders to and from Bay Ridge and
elsewhere in southern Brooklyn will benefit from faster, more direct service via
the Manhattan Bridge, with more service options. Both R and N service will run
more frequently during rush hours. R riders will be able to transfer to express
trains via the Bridge at both the 59th Street-4th Avenue station (N via 6th
Avenue, Weekdays only) and the De Kalb Avenue station (Q via Broadway, weekdays
and weekends).
It may also interest you to know that before these decisions are finalized the
Division of Operations Planning will conduct studies passenger counts at key
station locations, calculate the operating frequency needed to meet rider
demand, and adjust operations and schedules accordingly. NYC Transit will also
distribute brochures in early January detailing the changes. In addition, we
will also conduct an extensive outreach campaign in connection with subway
service if and when changes occur. In addition, we are always prepared to work
with individual customers to devise alternate trips to get them to and from
their destinations. Customers can call our Travel Information Center at (718)
330-1234, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Furthermore, we encourage you to log
onto our website at www.mta.info to get more information about these changes as
they become available.
We hope this information is helpful and thank you for having taken the time to
contact us.
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My Response to MTA
Customer (Michael Lau) - 12/15/2003 03:40 PM
Hello
Recently my home station has posted a bulletin regarding the information on the
new Manhattan Bridge Service Pattern that is slated to go in effect sometime in
February 2004. I want to know if Transit Authority will soon issue a Brochure
(that highlight the new Manhattan Bridge service pattern including the map
pinpointing train service over the manhattan bridge and Montague Street Tunnel)
to NYC Transit customer like myself. And when will NYC Transit Authority have
these New Manhattan Bridge Service Brochure available in my station? These
brochure will certainly be helpful source in organizing my new travel plan
David
The changes will not take place on February 1. They will probably take place on February 22; a later date is a remote possibility.
Huh?? N via 6th Ave??
That's interesting. I guess they are going 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 6 (M).
I assume that the change will occur at midnight. It could be Saturday February 1/Sunday February 2, or any week thereafter. When someone here announces the day of the pick, we'll know.
That's 56 tph out of DeKalb with 50 going to midtown. They used to run 75 tph out of DeKalb before Chrystie St with 51 trains going to midtown. Just how does the TA define increased service?
Ha ha they didn't answer your "question."
NYC Transit will also distribute brochures in early January detailing the changes.
Ha ha Ha They did! :P
They didn't answer the above question.
Ha Ha they did!!
I can see every suggestion that the N will stop at DeKalb at night.
If the link doesn't work, cut and paste the address.
Negative, but the Holme-less found in them were!
--Mark
David
Most people would assume that it should cost less not to collect fares than to collect them. The TA proved them wrong.
Free return fares were to be given only to people who entered the system after 8 pm. Therefore, one had to purchase a token from the ticket agent, rather than use one that might have been purchased previously, The purchaser also received a return ticket. This ticket had to be used between midnight and 5 am. It required going back to the token agent or to a special ticket collector and passing through the exit gate.
The net result is that it took more personnel not to collect fares than it ever took to collect fares.
The point is that most organizations would have simply opened up the exit gates from midnight to 5 AM. The TA decided to make it complicated and use more personnel. I suppose that they also had their accounting department figure out how many free tickets were distributed and how many were redeemed and where.
The question should not be how many TA personnel are required to replace a light bulb it should be how many are required not to collect a free fare. The only problem is that this wasn't a joke.
David
I'm a bit confused. How does whether passengers enter through turnstiles or the exit gate influence these aspects. I'd think the question of whether to operate the system or shut it down would have a greater effect. However, not operating on New Year's eve and morning was never an issue. Even the TWU would always extend the contract to 5 AM, when the contract used to expire on Dec 31st.
David
Was this our friend notchit's idea
A map on woman's chest (whisper)
Doubtful. But if it is, the expression "milf" comes to mind :)
--Mark
(Wait until you see the two tokens I am going to auction off next!)
Like....uh.....Where is she gonna be m-m-m-odeling those round tokens?
Know how hella hard it is for some of US to get our ladies to pose like that??
Even moreso, with a TRANSIT piece?
Yeao.
I don't think so. The top part of a fake hooter often has a rippled appearance seldom seen on a real one. These ones don't have that telltale rippling.
You see more at the beach.
Now, back to our regularly scheduled trains.
Does that have something to do with the delivery method that will be used for the winning bidder?
--Mark
[Hey, don't look at me that way - that situation was just begging for that comment)
Mark
Deer Runs Through Metro Station
(12.16.03- AP) This wasn't the typical Metro fare jumper. Startled passengers looked on in amazement one morning this month as a deer jumped the gates at the Addison Road-Seat Pleasant station.
Security cameras caught the whole thing, and Metro officials released the tapes on Monday after reviewing them. The deer walked around the mezzanine, ran down the escalator, then darted down the platform past a waiting train. He then jumped onto the tracks, avoiding the third rail, and headed off into the woods.
Metro officials say deer often wander onto their rights of way, and most make it out safely. But a deer inside the station is rare.
Chuck Greene
http://www.news8.net/news/stories/1203/114098.html
The dear was very polite, he used the down esculator to get to the platform
That could be extended to any on- or above-ground or open cut terminal station in the system where trains stand on the tracks with the doors open.
#3 West End Jeff
Someone had to say it.
#3 West End Jeff
Dang... I thought it was a computer animation.
You know what would have been more funny/scary? If the deer actually boarded the train just seconds before the train operator sticks his/her head out the window to close the doors, and the deer is trapped inside the subway car!
I am surprised that the deer did not board the train that was sitting in the station. That would of been really funny.
The book sells for $16.95.
If they listened I'll be adding this item to my collection
BTW, I recently picked up a paper model of AFC-Gibbs Hi-V that came out for the 75th anniversity (contains matches).
Chuck
Their speed controls are not interchangeable.
Bill "Newkirk"
CSSs work with pulses in the rails. The standard 4 aspect type uses pulse rates of 0, 75, 110 and 180 ppm. The LIRR has added 2 or 3 extra rates between these standard ones. If an MNRR CSS box reads a rate of like 140 as 110 or "go haywire" will determine if it could actually operate on the LIRR. Now, of course the LIRR lines, especially since they have gone to rule 562 operation over most of their territory, have probably been engineered with the extra codes in mind so they wouldn't really want the MNRR equipment running over their territory, but that dosen't mean that the MNRR CSS won't function in LIRR territory. (It might also be an FRA issue re: appropiate safety appliances in operation.)
Its the same way that the Reading owned the CNJ or the PRR owned the LIRR. Both put their mark on the road, but neither dissolved it completely.
Because they were built by different (competing) railroad moguls.
Because Metro North used to be the New York Central Railroad with service to Chicago via the "Water Level Route"
Because the Long Island Rail Road, was always (more or less) the Long Island Rail Road and chartered as such. IINM It is the OLDEST SURVIVING Originally Chartered railroad in the United States. It was originally built as a service to Boston.
The MU equipment is not compatable because of differences in the third rail (overrunning vs underrunning).
Penn Station does not have five platform minutes of excess capacity during peak hours.
Finally, there is not enough demand for a thru train to go from Metro North to Long Island.
Perhaps when LIRR goes into Grand Central, enough space in NYP will become available for MN to have some departures there via Hell Gate Bridge, But I would not bet the ranch on it, since NJT also wants those platforms.
AMTRAK has no reason to go to Long Island, and they do not have trackage rights there. Only Genisis Locomotives are compatible with pulling AMTK equipment on LIRR tracks, and those do not have the correct signal equipment onboard.
Elias
If Airtrain is a success, MTA should consider running through trains from the New Haven over the Hell Gate bridge to Jamaica, for airport passengers.
Or New Haven passengers could simply fly out of New Haven.
Elias
That will change when we BAN AIR SHUTTLES from the 3 NYC airports.
NYP ro WAS or BOS is AMTRAK TERITORY! Take a Train.
Fly shuttles from the outlying areas, Islip, Stewart, and New Haven.
Any thing at all to keep Extra Traffic out of NYC>
Elias
Yup, that would be the state of CT. The state of CT does not want to make it easier to fly in and out of JFK, they want people from CT to use their own international airport....Hartford's Bradley International. I could see them raising a big fuss if they tried running through trains towards JFK....
That being said, I think CT needs to improve passanger service along the New Haven to Springfield route...possibly with a stop at (or shuttle service to) Bradley international.
I understand Metro North service, overall, is better than that of the LIRR. If the two merged, would that be an example of Socialized Poor Service ?
What would be cool would be to actually physically connect all three systems. Imagine a single seat ride from White Plains to Montauk....
MTA Railroads (LIRR, Metro North, CDOT/Metro North, NJ Transit/Metro North, South Brooklyn Railroad)
MTA Subway (NYC Subway, SIRT)
MTA Reginal Bus (NYC DOB, MaBSTOA, LI BUS (MSBA))
MTA Bridges And Tunnels (Triboro Bridge and Tunnel Ath.)
MTA Admin
MTA Real Estate
:-) Andrew
They already do that. Unofficially, anyway. To this date MTA LI Bus is really the Metropolitan Suburban Bus Authority, MTA Bridges and Tunnels is really the Triborough Bridge and Tunnel Authority, and so on. I don't think the corporate names will ever be completely eliminated.
:-) Andrew
The LIRR and MNRR are still seperately chartered railroads, the LIRR being the oldest railroad still operating under its original charter. Any merged railroad, even if the divisions retained their old names, would be under a new charter and totally destroy the rich heritage of the LIRR.
The heritage will remain, existing charter or otherwise. Despite Selkirk's views on Albany, they still don't have the power to rewrite history up there. Bragging rights and nomenclature are not reasons to stand in the way of change, especially when there are so many other [better] arguments that could be made in opposition of a unified railroad.
Mark
I don't think anyone expected any operating changes to come from this.
CG
The name they were considering was “MTA Rail Road,” but I believe that notion was abandoned due to unpopularity and the confusion it would cause. The announcement is missing from the MTA website, but this page contains the text that used to be there.
They were also going to throw the NYC subway system plus the SIR under “MTA Subway,” the NYC Transit buses, LI Bus and MaBSTOA under “MTA Bus,” plus have MTA Capital and MTA Bridges & Tunnels.
While NYCT documentation tries it's best to refer to the A and B Divisions, IRT, BMT and IND pop up alot.
I agree that skip-stop makes little sense. To best serve passengers, it should be eliminated and all 1 trains should make all stops. If the kinks are worked out, some (alternate?) trains should terminate at 137th or Dyckman so that service south of 137th could be increased without overburdening the Bronx terminal with much more service than it needs.
What was the source of the rumor, does anyone remember?
What I would do, is to cut the east track and the west track and dig them down so that as the train travels north is goes down and then can loop under the 145th Street Station, and come back up on the west side.
Call it the 137th Street Loop.
Then there would be no need to fumigate the trains.
Call it the (9) Train. The (1) and the (9) service all stations south of 137th Street, only the (1) train goes north of 137 Street.
Elias
If they did do the peak direction express, which would be better:
Making the (9) express run with the 2 (and make the (3) local)
Making the (9) express run local after 96th street
And this is sorta off the subject of the express, but it still relates to the Broadway IRT:
Making 59th an express station would be possible! The TA could make a diamond crossover on the north + south sides to allow the express trains to stop at the station (on the local platforms). They could then go back to the express track after they continue on their journey.
That would eat LOADS of time in the merges, plus, at least in rush hour, there are more trains than one track could take.
The station where this setup would usefully work is Lafayette St on the C. The express and local merge at Hoyt anyway, so there's nothing lost. EB there's already a switch East of the station which would allow A trains to platform there (running local Hoyt to Lafayette). WB, it's more difficult: it either needs an extra switch or the platform to be extended over the local trackway.
Nice to know that the updated announcements have corrected this error. Too bad the updated announcements haven't been installed on the 2's R-142's, where they're badly needed.
The Electronic strip maps are not in use. Please listen to announcements and read the displays.
Actually, when I first saw the train approaching, it was signed as a 2, but as it pulled into the station, the signs were all off. It then announced that the next stop was Newkirk Avenue, and as the doors were closing it corrected itself (only to be interrupted by the doors -- no, I did not toss my bag between the doors as some are wont to do, in part because it contained nine small glass cups).
Maybe this 2 train was sent up the local tracks to provide extra equipment.
Why can't the TA just put the 5's updated R142s on the 2 permanently? Put the 2's R142s permanently on the 5 because they at least announce the Q and W when they run as 5's.
As an aside to this, i never knew that Utica-bound (5) trains ran up the local track south of Franklin.
It might be an optical illusion in the picture, but it almost looks slanted. Was this an experimental front end that was not adopted?
--Mark
In fairness to the Boston riders, the red line trains are not painted fully red; there is only a red stripe...unlike the redbirds in NY. -Nick
You were right about that, thanks for the link.
Green Line
3666 = '66' (wreck damaged, at Riverside)
3712 = '712'
3446 = '446'
3813 = '813'
Red Line
01501 = '501'
01623 = '623'
01733 = '33'
01803 = '803'
I am not sure what the convention at the Bus Dept is, but I imagine 0303 would be called '303', and 0002 would be called '02', but there are the 8500 series (35-footers) and 8800 series (the suburban versions of RTS-II) and I am not sure what they'd call those on the radio.
AEM7
BUT, BSRA's 1986 MBTA track map does call the repainted 01400 cars "Red Birds"! The 015-01700s are referred to as "South Shore Cars."
T riders today don't seem to care what kind of Red Line car they get on. No matter what, they know there will be delays, especially approaching Park Street northbound in the morning, and southbound in the evening. It sure would be nice if a 3rd track could be installed there; the dwell time at Park Street is so long that it causes delays in service that ripple down the line. Oftentimes when I leave MIT at 5pm it can take 15-20 minutes just to get from Kendall/MIT to Park Street.
I do. I dislike the 01500-01700 series, and I would always prefer to be on a Bombardier car. Not that I have much of a choice in the matter. When I am at JFK/UMass in the morning though, I will preferentially get on the Ashmont train, even if the Braintree blinker goes off first. Ashmonts in the AM rush are less crowded, and are always given the right of way in front of a Braintree train (because the emptier train should go first to empty the platforms at Andrew and Broadway).
No matter what, they know there will be delays, especially approaching Park Street Northbound in the morning, and Southbound in the evening. It sure would be nice if a 3rd track could be installed there; the dwell time at Park Street is so long that it causes delays in service that ripple down the line. Oftentimes when I leave MIT at 5pm it can take 15-20 minutes just to get from Kendall/MIT to Park Street.
Todd, that issue is well documented. The problem is not the lack of capacity, it's the location of track circuits. In the Southbound direction, Park St and Downtown Xing are in the same track circuit block, thus one train will not proceed in advance of the crossovers immediately north of Park St until the previous train has cleared Downtown Xing Station.
There are, however, good reasons for not removing that feature. Allowing simutanious-platforming at Park St and Downtown Xing would be good, but increasing capacity through that section will lead to bunching further down the line. Trains need to be held at the busiest stops until its scheduled departure time, and that 'hold' between Charles and Park has the effect of spacing train departures at Park (so no two trains could arrive at Park immediately after one another). This prevents the trains from being bunched up further down the line.
It's a stupid feature, and the trains should definitely be held at Park St with doors OPEN instead of being held AHEAD of Park St with doors CLOSED. But the feature is necessary for the regulation of headways.
In the Northbound direction, the train is permitted to pull up OUT of Downtown Xing and run into Park as soon as Park vacates. Again, that is a compromise -- you end up with half the train in Downtown Xing but a faster time-between-trains at Park. My solution would be to move the block to immediately beyond Downtown Xing, so that the train could stay in the station with doors open while the train ahead loads at Park.
AEM7
Secondly, the Union question is if the SIR T/O's are UTU or TWU.
Matter transporters are installed at Whitehall and St. George? :)
Let's see R (for Richmond) is already in use, S (for Staten Island) is also taken.
Any thoughts?
The Roster summary in the back of the book is vital information.
Just as long as they are periodically washed, they will shine.
Is not Mr. Greller entitled to his opinion as well?
OTOH I'd puke up Turkey if he were calling the Rmadillos THAT!
Here's a bit of a start:
H.C.I.F. when I saw a black tag of GRAFFITI on an R143 car on the (L) at Union Square-14 Street. Good thing it's only stainless steel. :)
Great to see you back on the board, New Look Terrapin! :)
By if a rehab were to be given, shouldn't be given a retro IND subway look, with bathroom and color band tiling and retro IND subway entrance ?
Since the station is located in and upscale area, it deserves a better look than what it now has. The funny thing about the station is that the restrooms are located in the mezzanine and not within fare controls.
Bill "Newkirk"
The IRT, BMT, and IND got it right the first time. 57th Street would look great with a retro design.
That's a matter of opinion. But there's no reason why we couldn't make sure it's done right at 57 St.
If they did put in an elevator, that would mean F riders would have a string of consecutive ADA-compliant stations, starting from Roosevelt-Jackson Heights (now under construction and scheduled for completion November 2005), through the new Connector Stations, then would come 57th. I don't remember if Rockefeller Center is ADA compliant, but 34th Street is. Is 42nd Street also?
Oh No!
....awaiting the wrath of RonInBayside....
Just kidding, but you remember what happened last time we tried to talk about "key stations".
See "The Future Was Yesterday"...
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/SUBWAYS/modernsubs/modernsub.html
This station is just 35 years old, and most of the 70+ year old stations need attention.
I was at Brooklyn's 7th Ave & 9th St F station today and it still have water leakage and much tile damage. It could use a renovation!
The Newsday article two days ago stated that most of the Airtrain riders would originate from Manhattan.
Since you can buy a round LIRR ticket / Metrocard that encompasses a round trip fare and round trip subway ride, perhaps there should be a $11.75 one way LIRR ticket to Jamaica and one way Airtrain fare. The reverse could take place at Airtrain JFK for those who want to purchase one ticket for the "two seat ride" to Manhattan.
One way "peak" fare from NYP to Jamaica is $6.75. There is no off peak fare for this zone.
Any thoughts ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Also, weekend fares to Jamaica will soon be $2.50 under the CityTicket plan.
Perhaps Newsday wasn't aware of the CityTicket plan, but the focus is one ticket for both modes of travel. No stopping at Airtrain Jamaica to buy the metrocard when you already have the one you purchased at Penn Station. And maybe with the CityTicket plan, drop the cost of ticket to an even $7.00. Create an incentive.
Bill "Newkirk"
In fact, i'd take it one step further...but i'll save that for the end.
The reason for this is that intermodal travel is "seamless" in an ideal world. When I say seamless, I mean the trouble of changing modes (or in this case, changing trains), should be minimal. Thats what I learned in my intermodal transportation class. Somehow I suspected that New York would screw it up by making people stop to purchase 2 tickets, and I was right.
New Jersey Transit sells combo tickets for Newark Airtrain and NJT trains. The tickets have the origin and destination printed on it to be checked/punched on board the NJT train, and they have the mag-stripe on the ticket for Air train. For the few that don't have a mag-strip ticket for whatever reason (such as they bought ticket on board the train), the fare can be paid seperately, but that seems to be the exception rather then the norm.
If NJT/Port Authority can work something out, I see no reason why MTA/Port authority can't for JFK Airtrain.
So, my grand idea: add "JFK Airport via Jamaica" as an "LIRR station" at the TVM's. What it does....it prints the ticket onto a Metrocard, and gives a card with $5 value on it. If the round trip option is chosen, it will give a $10 card (without the bonus, since it is primarily to be used for airtrain). The LIRR tickets would still be sold peak/off peak as appropiate. This eliminates the need to purchase a Metrocard at Jamaica for those originating at Penn or any other LIRR station. I'd also maybe display a notice (or even print it on the ticket) saying that you need to swipe the ticket to get onto an off of Airtrain.
What about those going to an LIRR from JFK? Well, put LIRR TVM's at the airtrain stations! (or maybe just jamaica due to cost constraints, since you wouldn't need a ticket until you arrived at Jamaica air train terminal anyway). Those LIRR TVM's would be programmed to automatically include the $5 metrocard option along with the LIRR ticket printed on it.
For subway users, the seamless connection already exists....Metrocard. I would still place notices in all subway stations displaying the Airtrain fare, so people who buy metrocards know how much value to put onto a card, and so that people know that they can't use unlimited ride cards. For the airtrain end, I'd make sure that airtrain users know that the subway fare is $2 so maybe they'd only have to purchase one metrocard...but...a notice saying that if you want to purchase an unlimited card for the subway, you have to purchase it seperately. But i'd still place an MVM inside airtrain so that people can buy it at one time, rather then have to wait on line twice, etc.
I can see some people being confused over the unlimiteds. Why do they sell them for $70 outside and only $40 inside airtrain?? Some people might buy the $40 one and be in for a nice surprise when the try to use it on the subway!
Bill "Newkirk"
Rock ya body PA check one, two
Cuz it aint a party till the crew run through
Shake ya body show me whachu can do like Ohh, Ohh
Rock your body, PA check 1, 2
Cap'n spin the wheel, rock into the groove
Bump it louder so the geese wanna move
Like Ohhh, Ohhh
--Mark
The crew member that operates the doors.
Elias
AEM7
AEM7
Yes.
Isn't that the Isreali shipping company?
No. Danish. Headquartered in Copenhagen. They did merge with Sealand a while ago -- Sealand was an American company, based out of one of the Southeast ports (I forget which), and was traded several times with the last owner being CSX Transportation, which sold it to Maesrk sometime ago. CSX kept the terminals (and that division is now called CSX International Terminals).
What a coincidence if you get my drift.
Not a coincidence at all.
History of Maersk
In pictures
For the record, ZIM is the Israeli shipping company.
It's near the token booth at the 68 Street - Hunter College station on the (6). It shows only the affected lines, and where they'll be going, and explains briefly the changes taking place. I'm not sure why they'd place this on the Lexington Avenue Line, but I'm sure pretty soon they'll put some up in the stations along the Broadway Line and 6th Avenue Line.
http://www.mta.info/nyct/manhattan_bridge.htm
There are reports all the time that someone is on the tracks. Someone jumps down to retrieve a dropped item, etc. If they cut power every time you'd have massive delays.
> What exactly happens when 3rd rail power is cut, signals turn to red, trip arms go up, and does the train go BIE?
Signals/stop arms run on AC power. When the third rail is cut it affects the trains only. They can't move, the lights and other electrical systems run off of the batteries and after a while the trains go BIE because the compressors are no longer running so the system can't maintain enough pressure to keep the brakes charged (at least that's how I understand it).
> What normally does the command center do when they can't get in touch with one of their trains (I assume this was an OPTO).
Control Center will usually they'll just shout over the radio until they're heard. A local tower will try to have a passing train get in touch with the other depending on the circumstances.
> Unfortunately, the MTA will be found guilty and pay millions of dollars, as the T/O probably broke a major rule w/o having his radio. Someone will correct me if I'm wrong.
Unfortunately there's dead spots all over the system where crew radios are useless. Don't know if this could be one of those cases. Did it say that it is proven the T/O didn't have his radio or is this inferred because he did not respond?
Signals/stop arms run on AC power. When the third rail is cut it affects the trains only. They can't move, the lights and other electrical systems run off of the batteries and after a while the trains go BIE because the compressors are no longer running so the system can't maintain enough pressure to keep the brakes charged (at least that's how I understand it).
When third rail power is cut, trains can't take power - however, they can coast and are instructed to do so, so as to get the train to a station (or emergency exit). Of course, if you happen to be operating a diesel work train, you'll never know power has been cut.
That would make sense, so probably not. :)
This revalation came to me tonight while I was visiting someone who lives on Western Ave....her address is Washington, DC...but she told me that the people who live across the street are Maryland residents. Sure enough, all the cars in the driveways on her side had District of Columbia plates, and all the cars on the other side had Maryland plates.
I've yet to EVER hear an announcement "this is the last station stop in the state of Maryland" or similar announcement when traveling the Shady Grove part of the Red line.
One other thing I find interesting....very infrequently is the state line announcement made correctly on the Orange, Blue, and Yellow lines. It is the State of Maryland, the District of Columbia, and the COMMONWEALTH of Virginia. Thats right, VA is a commonwealth, not a state :) (Pennsylvania, Kentucky, and Massachusetts are the other commonwealths in the USA).
Commonwealth pride :)
Try the duck test.
Mark
More so than Brooklyn and the Bronx?
Which is?
I use the station on an almost daily basis and I take the outbound train in the morning, so I enter DC each day for the sole purpose of boarding/alighting my train. On rare occasions, I go to Bethesda in the evenings.
I hear many operators say "This is the last stop in DC" as they enter Friendship Heights going to Shady Grove and vice versa for Glenmont-bound. When I never hear it is entering/leaving Takoma on the other side of the line, but I don't go there often. Keep in mind most operators announce first/last stop in DC, not MD or VA. I have heard one operator announce "This is Rosslyn, last stop in the Commonwealth State of Virginia" causing a number of tourists to freak out, assuming the train was going out of service.
I invite you to join the DC area SubTalkers and BusTalkers the next time there is a get together, but as some of the BusTalkers can tell you, I most likely won't show unless the itinerary involves Ride-On route 27. ;-)
It's funny, because I've noticed almost the exact opposite as most of you, hearing "last station in Virginia" so much, and not for DC or Maryland in either direction.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Question: does anybody know how many R-142 will becoming to the 7 and is the 7 going to be a 2 type car line ?
My info says that as soon as Corona gets rebuilt it will get more nad more R-142
When will Corona be rebuilt? I don't think ANY R142s can go to Corona until this happens, which is why the 180th St. shop was rebuilt before the first R142 arrived there. -Nick
It's being rebuilt right now.
According to the MTA's Capital Improvements manual, activation of the new Corona barn is projected for 2007.
Finally, experiments and political whim aside, there is simply no way to assign R-142/142A type equipment to the 7 in a meaningful way without cutting train lengths to 10 cars.
Again, for each 11-car train, it is necessary to "use" 15 cars. MTA simply cannot justify idling otherwise perfectly functional equipment to mollify what amounts to a political concern.
The ultimate answer may be CBTC, but only time will tell.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
The cars wouldn't necessarily be idle; while the 7 runs 6+5 car sets, the other IRT lines could be running 6+4 car sets. I'll agree it doesn't seem likely.
First take two 5 car sets and remove 2 "B" cars from each leaving two 3 car sets.
Next add one "B" car to each of four different five car sets.
You are left with:
2 - Three car sets
4 - Six car sets
No left over cars.
Take the 2 three car sets, couple them together and add a five car set. You have an 11 car train.
Take the 4 six car sets, and cople them to five car sets. You have four 11 car trains.
Final result is five 11 car trains, and no odd ball cars left over.
ABBBAABBBBA
ABBBAABBBBA
ABBBAABBBBA
ABBBAABBBBA
ABBBAABAABA
This leaves no orphaned cars. You have 3,5,& 6 car sets.
Plus, to my knowledge the New Technology Trainsets require a minimum of 4 cars for all the necessary equipment to be present and in proper position for interface between cars.
This is the unfortunate downside of unitization: the ability to tailor equipment configuration for service requirement variations is sacrificed.
Why such a rush in the first place? New equipment for the Flushing Line is inevitable "at some point." Right now the trade-off is new trains of 10 cars or older trains of 11 cars. To have cake and eat it, too, will require time needed for new specifications to be developed and an acquisition process formulated and funded.
'Twasn't such a big deal on the Mainlines.
Regards, and Happpy Holidays,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
It just seems that people on this board are convinced it will happen, and I was trying to find a way it "could" be done without creating "orphan cars".
If in fact, the electronics need at least 4 cars in a set, than my idea will not work.
My thoughts are to wait for CBCT, and at that point run 10 car trains with more frequent headways. This should be possible once CBCT is functioning on the Flushing line.
Now maybe we know why many valuable contributors fro the MTA no longer contribute in a meaningful way.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
ABBAABAABBA 6xA; 5xB
ABBBAABBBBA 4xA; 7xB
ABBBAABBBBA 4xA; 7xB
ABBBAABBBBA 4xA; 7xB
ABBBAABBBBA 4xA; 7xB
22xA; 33xB
would be the same as
ABBBA 2xA; 3xB
ABBBA 2xA; 3xB
ABBBA 2xA; 3xB
ABBBA 2xA; 3xB
ABBBA 2xA; 3xB
ABBBA 2xA; 3xB
ABBBA 2xA; 3xB
ABBBA 2xA; 3xB
ABBBA 2xA; 3xB
ABBBA 2xA; 3xB
ABBBA 2xA; 3xB
22xA; 33xB
But of course that is just a projection. If the barns have already started being built, we all know it won't take long for the completion. March '04 could definitely be a possibility for activation. -Nick
The new barn will be located in the present Yard B. To visualize it, walk out onto the plankway from Willets Point Blvd. station to Arthur Ashe Stadium and the LIRR, march out to the shelter above the first stairway down to the LIRR platform and turn 180 degrees. Walk straight ahead (toward Flushing) and you will be looking at Yard B. Imagine it with a spanking new building, appreciably larger than the existing barn, a rebuilt lay-up yard and (reportedly) a loop track snaking behind into what presently is part of the Creek itself.
If you can successfully imagine what is to be, you should also realize how much work there is to be done.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
So what about it, guys? Will the unification of the aeroplane and the train ever take place, i.e., will there ever run magnetically (or otherwisely) levitated trains under NYC? Or will this for ever remain a fantasy, to be looked back at by people in another 100 years as a foolish attempt of early 21st century-dream-a-lots?
I love trains. That being said, and this may sound like treason: Was airline growth worth it? You bet it was. It's the best thing that happened to transportation since the steam monsters pulled people from one side of the country to the other on the rails.
Plane travel is great. I would much rather spend 2 hours in a plane, than 1 day riding a train to get to Florida. I would much rather spend 5 hours riding in a plane instead of a few days riding a train between New York and the West Coast. Train travel still has it's place, but plane travel is a better mode for quick efficient travel.
Mark
#3 West End Jeff
Coincidence? I think not.
Today was chosen as the opening date precisely because it's the 100th anniversary of the first powered flight.
This way, if I were flying from, say, Philly to Birmingham, I would fly to Atlanta and then hop on a high speed train right at the airport to take me the rest of the way, instead of taking a stupid little cramped crop-duster commuter plane.
I'm typing this all because I haven't seen you on this board before, so you may not have read this idea the last 800 times I've posted it...my apologies to those who are reading it for the 800th time!
: )
Mark
Cool. Is this a railfan trip?
on Virgin Atlantic, which in addition to the airline is one of the (innumerable) train operators in Britain.
A train operator which has ruined the Virgin brand name (as if third rate cola and ballooning experiments weren't enough). It's the only operator I've EVER seen advertise a train as being two hours late (okay, it was the Penzance to Aberdeen, but...).
Not specifically, but I'm certainly going to be doing quite a bit of rail riding. I'll try to ride as much of the Tube as possible, though doing the entire system would be too much, the DLR, the Corydon Tramway*, and one or two short mainline rail trips.
* = which looks quite interesting, from the pictures elsewhere on this site.
You'll prbably have the opinion (especially with no RFWs) of "seen one tunnel, seen them all", so there are obvious sections to miss:
- the entire Victoria and Waterloo & City Lines
- the Southern end of the Northern Line
- the North-Eastern end of the Piccadilly Line (okay it eventually gets into the open after half the trains have terminated)
- the Bakerloo Line is useful but dull until you get out to Queen's Park
That probably chops it down to a more manageable size (especially when you realise how expensive it is beyond Moor Park on the Met).
the DLR
THE coolest thing in London! Get on at a terminal to get an RFW seat - it's still something of a novelty over here...
the Croydon Tramway
It has its moments, but I'm not entirely convinced about it to say the least.
and one or two short mainline rail trips.
I personally enjoy main line rail trips the most. You will find this map invaluable for helping to work out what goes where.
The problem with Morden and Cockfosters is that they both take an eternity to get to. Yes, they are the most interesting stations on their respective stretches of line, but it's probably not worth the effort.
The W & C. (Southern's poor imitation of the Underground) was an interesting diversion.
I personally like it. I was bored one day going from Waterloo to Oxford Circus, so I decided to be utterly perverse and ride the Drain and the Central. Waterloo is a kinda cool station with all the columns and the travelator at Bank is quite fun as people wonder whether or not escalator rules apply. The rolling stock is rather unusual, if only for the paint job. Having said all that, the Drain is the sort of line you get round to after all the others.
Crazy round trip idea:
Bank
Drain to Waterloo
SWT to Epsom
#293 to Morden Station
Northern Line to Bank
Perhaps they should let Holden,Junior have a go at Waterloo station now.
Pulling down International would be a good start.
Pennsylvania Airlines: The Standard Airline of the World.
Transit in Lower Manhattan is weak?
Direct Rail-Link... Has he not heard of the (A) Train?
What a waste of money that would be.
The problem is that it is quite finite and is not being spent to reconstruct the WTC and compensate the majority of people who suffered from 9/11. We will wake up the next morning with the hangover of a bare treasury and thousands of 9/11 victims uncompensated, if one quarter of these projects are actually started.
Downtown's basic transportation shortcoming is that the region has outgrown the subway system (PATH included). Downtown could use direct access to commuter railroads not to airports.
With Airtrain coming to Jamaica Station, both can be accomplished by extending the LIRR from Flatbush Terminal.
That isn't a direct rail link; it still requires a tranfer at Howard Beach and a 12 minute ride on AirTrain.
I agree the money is better spent elsewhere.
Ideally, we would have a line that passes through the CBD with a two or three stops and then heads out to the airport. That's not going to happen. The A train makes too many stops to be considered quick. The LIRR only connects to one part of Midtown and Downtown Brooklyn. So, if we want a quick, convenient trip, the LIRR has to go to Lower Manhattan as well. And, it will still not be particularly convenient even after East Side Access, because the commuter rail stations in NYC are places to which you have to haul yourselves. "Carry your luggage to the subway, take the subway to the train station, carry your luggage to the train, take the train to the AirTrain station, carry your luggage to the AirTrain, take the AirTrain, and carry your luggage to the terminal."
As for a one-seat ride, we can probably overcome the passenger tax problem. (AirTrain was funded by an airline ticket tax that can only be spent on the airport and its facilities.) Either we can make a creative argument regarding the extension along LIRR or we can get Congress to pass a bill to allow it.
He's presenting a case based upon the airport but it's something many folks have been suggesting for years.
I don't care what the excuse given is - if the LIRR can reach downtown Bklyn to WTC then that's fine by me!!
They don't bother me as long as they stay off the platforms.
Hehe. And those little critters do make it to the platforms occasionally. About a year ago or so I was waiting for a train at 14th/8th, and a rat made it to the pile of garbage at the end of the platform. The rat left the garbage and started towards one of the stairways. AT the same time a woman had just come down from the mezzanine towards me when she saw the rat. All of a sudden she let out a scream like I never heard before in my life, and ran three steps at a time back to the mezzanine. I was laughing so hard that I almost couldn't breathe. It scared the hell out of the rat too, as he high tailed it to the tracks.
I did see one on the Manhattan Bridge though.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
You're not kidding. Yesterday, I spotted a monster rat in front of Grand Central Terminal. Conditions at the Oyster Bar Restaurant apparently fostered the appearance of this rat.
http://community.webtv.net/hey-paul/MonsterRatInFrontof
I'm sure he'll be coming home well fed after dining in the city and a complimentary ride on the Sea Bits. :)
Every time I think of this client I think of that rat. The only thing that ever came out of this that was positive was that I would occasionally leave their office at noon and take the El down to Wrigley to catch the Cubs. Nothing better than mixing business, railfanning and baseball.
CG
Apparently the Oyster Bar is a favorite destination of Japanese businessmen... raw oysters, libido, etc.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
#3 West End Jeff
Recent observation - A rat with three-quarters of its tail missing (perhaps amputated by a train?) meandering its way up the Uptown C/E Penn Sta. track.
Good Story...Was waiting for an uptown 6 about a month ago and was chatting to a Beantown couple. On the tracks, a rat (nice size, probabaly a 4-5 pounder) apperaed squirming around. The lady didn't notice it at first, saw it, turned to her husband and said "Aaaah! Frank, that's it, that's the last time", then proceeded to go back through the turnstile and up the stairs, her man chasing after her not knowing what happened. Oh well. One less pair of tourists on the subway :-p
Just a matter of perception. Rats do not much exceed one pound in weight.
Only thing I like better than them there rats is some fresh possum killed by my pickup.
2. Valley RxR ("for profit" steam operation at Essex, CT) apparently is laying off it's staff after Christmas until May :-(
3. Trolley museums at Warehouse Point & Branford, CT only canceled their Santa events on the worst of the bad weather days. Both will continue to operate in December:
---- a. Branford, until Dec 21st (Lou from Brooklyn, Arrow III MU & I will be there that last day)
---- b. Warehouse Point until Dec 28th
I can attest to that. Seems like only the Airport Terminal Loop route was running smoothly. The other two routes had problems and gaps in service.
This is just the larceny part. Far more money is wasted by selecting only high-priced solutions and contractors.
So, you know about selecting contractors, eh? I'll trust you with selecting contractors that bid-low, overrun-high, and use shoddy materials and workmanship.
So your last post makes that clear how? Of course I understand what you're trying to point out, but some people on this board might not, and some people might then proceed to bash MTA suggesting that they are incompetent, and all funding to public transit should be cut because they don't want to pay for inefficient public enterprises. If you understand the complexity of the problem, explain it. It's posts like your last posts that breed these harebrained, stupid, shallow anti-transit sentiments. You don't want to be a weapon against the MTA, do you?
AEM7
Politics?
Are we talking about selecting contractors who would charge mroe to the gov't than any other company because of personal connections to the higher ups, or because of campagain "contributions"?
Or is the philly mayor the only one who still does this kind of grafting, I hope the future trial will be interesting.
The thing that did this plumber in is that he was too obvcious in his spending.
Maybe they should, although usually without detailed contract terms it is very hard to evaluate the value-for-money component of the contract. This should apply to all contracts except design contracts (which are cost-plus, and experience based, and not lowest-cost).
AEM7
David
That's not a bad doctrine, if it is universally applied. I suppose the military would be the first agency to see its funding dry up followed by the Federal Highway Administration and the Agriculture Department.
The problem is that the public transit industry has no incentive to economize without a real threat of imminent bankruptcy. (I'll wait to see what happens to Amtrak, before deciding whether this is a sufficient condition.) The last major transit project I can think of that included the concept of return on investment as a design criterion was the PCC car. The challenge of the public transit industry should be how to contain and reduce costs, not how to find new funding sources to cover skyrocketing expenses.
I disagree. Fully-allocated costing, while it is an intellectual concept that I generally like, is not something that can be universally applied to all policy situations. For example, military spending in strict economic terms would be justified by the expected cost of an invasion multipled by its risk. It is exceedingly difficult, if not impossible, to price that risk. Some may argue that invasion is not a bad thing; others may argue that invasion risk is so low that the spending ought to be zero. But there are no hard analytical models that can spit out those numbers. So if you opened up the Army to full economic costing (and/or fully competitive market), you'll end up with an Army contractor that prices the risks very low, only to go bankrupt in the event of an invasion.
That aside, you are also forgetting the U.S. military spending resulted in many civil developments that would otherwise not have happened: nationwide air traffic control, Boeing 747, Global Positioning System, interstate expressways, the internet, to mention a few. Perhaps not cost effective, but I would rather be with the internet than without it. And if you think this research could have been done by risk-taking private sector financiers, you're very naive.
The problem is that the public transit industry has no incentive to economize without a real threat of imminent bankruptcy.
In most cases, it is impossible to economize without suffering a detriment in service.
Usually, "economize" means to screw labor. "Economization" of the truckload carrier industry since the deregulation has mainly been achieved by screwing labor, and several books have been written on this subject. For example, Sweatshops on Wheels: Winners and Losers in Trucking Deregulation
The challenge of the public transit industry should be how to contain and reduce costs, not how to find new funding sources to cover skyrocketing expenses.
The challenge of the public transit industry should be how to educate the public on what it takes to provide the service that the public expects, and how to demonstrate that no matter how you hide it, cutting budgets results in economic efficiency and service degradation, but most of the savings attained as a result of service degradation and not economic efficiency.
AEM7
There was no money to reward those who keep the city moving 24-7, but there was money to waste like this. Pouring millions into 2 Broadway and hiring $500-an-hour lawyers while closing token booths and cutting elevator operators.
And just think. The fare STILL may go up YET AGAIN.
Also, the yellow guard rail and the 3rd rail covers are in place across the entire span. The only thing left may be the yellow track walkways. The bike/foot path still needs the chain link fencing installed. It doesn't look like the wrought iron fence is going to be installed on the track side as it was on the south side of the bridge. I'm not sure if there was ever a fence there as there was never a walkway.
I don't know why they're putting in another bike/footpath. The existing one is never even remotely crowded (unlike the Brooklyn Bridge), and there's safety in (moderate) numbers.
I'd like to walk over one side and then the other, and will probably try it, though I'll probably be spit on by the Transportation Alternatives bike Nazi's if I try it.
NO!
Both the Manhattan and Williamsburg Bridges had two walkways. The MB north side walkway was closed in 1942 by order of the War Department to prevent foreign spies from photographing the Brooklyn Navy Yard.
There's the 7 mezzanine and the N/R mezzanine... both which are also Qnsbound..
They used long trains only during rush hours. Train length was cut during off peak hours, when long trains were not required.
The used two conductors for long trains. I believe on the IRT, one was between cars 2 and 3 and the other between 9 and 10. This way they could open 7, 8, 9 and 10 car lengths. It also permitted direct access at Bowling Green to the Shuttle platform from the front of the express.
In those days conductors were supposed to know the difference between front and back as well as left and right.
Thanks, I never knew that 145th was on the road to becoming another 18th St or 91st Street. I've only been to 145th St once, and it was over 10 years ago. Is the 5 car length original, or was it extended at some point (like the 10's, 30's or 50's when many original IRT stations were altered). What I am asking, is it a pure original IRT station (like 18th would still be if it was still open)?
-- Ed Sachs
The lower Lexington and upper 7th Ave. lines were part of the original 1904 subway, and were built to accommodate only 5 car local trains.
Both the east and west side lines ran local trains of no more than 5 cars through at least 1950. The Lexington Ave. line started running longer local trains in the early 1950s, and the west side line in the late 1950s. So -- prior to the late 1950s, the platform extensions for the local stations between Times Square and 96th St. weren't required, and all of these platforms (except for 91st St, which was closed) were extended at that time.
-- Ed Sachs
My suggestion centers around the proximity of the J/Z line tracks to the LIRR mainline tracks west of Jamaica. As every LIRR rider familiar with the area knows, the J/Z tracks approach the mainline tracks west of Jamaica before curving east and heading into the Archer Avenue tunnel. Before the curve, the elevated J/Z tracks and the mainline tracks are at approximately the same height. The curve ends into a short stretch of depressed trackage that runs nearly parallel with the LIRR mainline tracks.
As everyone also knows, the J/Z provide a direct connection from the Jamaica area to downtown Manhattan, including Chambers, Fulton and Broad Streets.
Given this fortuitous orientation of the two lines, here's my suggestion. Build a connection from the J/Z tracks before the curve (that is, from the original BMT trackage) to the mainline tracks (a flying junction would be ideal) and allow specially designated "Downtown" subway trains to travel from the J/Z line directly to the LIRR Jamaica station. The subway trains would terminate there and passengers could then switch to their connecting LIRR trains.
To speed travel on the J/Z trackage, the "Downtown" trains would run express as much as possible on the J/Z line. Initially, a third, middle track could be laid on the portion of the line that runs between 121st Street and Cypress Hills. As we all know, there is a provision for a middle track on the structure and at least some evidence that a track once existed there. Use of the middle track could be fashioned after the (7) model - trains would run in peak directions (downtown in AM rush hours and Jamaica bound in PM rush hours). Trains would then make local stops between Crescent Street and Eastern Parkway (this is unavoidable) and resume its express run after Eastern Parkway. There would be just two Brooklyn stops after that - Myrtle Avenue and Marcy Avenue. The train would make regular stops after the Willie B and terminate at Broad Street.
I feel that since most of the infrastructure already exists, implementing this plan would not be as prohibitively expensive as digging new tunnels. It also would not disrupt service in existing tunnels, such as running cars through the A/C tunnel, as has been suggested.
I know there are a few shortcoming in this plan. First, it doesn't provide a single-seat ride downtown, but then again, neither does the LIRR/AirTrain system. It also would not be a lot faster in terms of time spent than simply transferring to the J/Z trains downstairs at LIRR/Jamaica. But it would be somewhat faster and eliminate the need for downtown passengers to have to travel all the way to Penn Station or Flatbush Avenue and then boarding subway trains at those destinations. Additionally, I know that the LIRR runs under FRA regulations and the subway does not, but given the short distance the subway trains would have to travel between the connection and LIRR/Jamaica, I'm sure something could be worked out.
As a daily LIRR rider who works downtown and has to change for the subway daily at either Flatbush or Penn Station, I would welcome a third choice in the form of the above, especially if it could be a cross-platform transfer.
Thoughts?
I'll leave it to SubTalk old timey experts to direct you to more on-line information on the former Chestnut Street BMT/BRT-LIRR connection. There's a brief description of it in Herbert George's book about the Rockaway Beach Branch LIRR, "Change At Ozone Park".
I do not like the crescent street curves. That is the SLOWEST part of the whole route.
If an express service is required, they could simply blast by the unwanted stops, since the loadins and crowding of these platforms ought not to cause a problem.
My solution for the (J) (JJ) service is found on my web site.
Elias
Arti
I was going to ask what the (L) for?
But actually your idea has merit. Dos the (L) north of BJ need more traffic than south of BJ? Probably.
Does the Fulton-Rockaway Blvd spur need more service. Probably not.
Enough to make it worth building a coneection at the already over-complicated BJ complex? Probably not.
But... What If...
What if that Fulton-Rockaway line were to be extended along Rockaway Blvd ro join the Rockaway line? THAT WOULD provide nice service to the Airport. Put some R-163s on that line (the cars with luggage racks) and you got yourself a nice airport service.
As well as sending the (JJ) train to the Rockaways, giving the (A) full time service up Lefferts (and it new extention to Hillside Avenue via Supthin Blvd.
Then the (E) (8th Avenue Express) becomes the Local along Fulton Street, and the (C) (8th Avenue Local) Becomes the Culver Express to Kings Highwya.
Looks like a plan to me, even if it is somnewhat convoluted.
: ) Elais
For the Lawnguylanders, I suggest hooking the LIRR tracks into the Montigue Street tunnel in Downtown Brooklyn, and running a super shuttle up the Nassau Loop -- perhaps as the back side of the J/Z. Unlike the J/Z, however, this super-shuttle would not provide a free transfer to other NYCT services, buses or subways. Thus it would be used primarily by LIRR and Airtrain riders, though bus transferees could use it if they were willing to pay a double fare.
You could run 12 "Z" express trains per hour at rush hour on your third track, along with the six J locals and six M trains, for city residents. The six Js and 12 Z's would run as super-shuttles on Atlantic Avenue, merging with the W and the R (which would run on 4th Avenue) past Court Street station (the J/Z and R/W trains would share no stations, thus limiting the dwell time constraint on capacity). That's 36 trains per hour from Jamaica to Downtown, with 30 of them expresses.
It wasn't that bad of a movie at least. :)
Also, I think, someone posted about 2-3 pics of the moneytrain 2-3 months back on here. I'm not sure where he had the pictures stored at.
Does anyone know how often tokens had to be moved in the past? (Apart from the obvious restocking/retiring exercises)
The Subway Buffs guide to the movie is here.
Anyways, caught a CAF consist from Georgia Avenue to Greenbelt, then back to Gallery Place... left GA Ave about 3:36 PM... I wonder where Oren was... Whole ride through, I was thinking I MIGHT run across any of the DC area Subtalkers, and they wouldn't even know it was me.
Anyways, got off at Gallery Place, and saw the most HIDEOUS sight I've ever witnessed. Sadly, I didn't bring my camera(s), as one needs batteries, and the other's just... shot for the moment. However, the hideous placard upon the lower level walls was enough to make my eyes burn.
"Green Line to Branch Avenue via Anacostia" - Fine. Mention of the former terminal, that gives me hope that they'll start doing short-turn trips there or Southern Avenue, running them to U Street or Fort Totten.
"Yellow Line to Huntington via Ronald Reagan National Airport" - BAD!!! Bad Metro, bad! No biscuit. WHY THAT place of all possible? Pentagon? Crystal City? Alexandria? No, they pick the airport. Not that I mind the airport itself, but... That name... I hope they didn't botch the Blue Line elsewhere.
The signs for the other direction weren't worth the mention.
Mt Vernon Sq has FINALLY removed all evidence of its former name (Mt Vernon Sq-UDC). NOW, I can refer to it as Mt Vernon Sq-7th Street Convention Center with no qualms. The operators are fine leaving the "7th Street" part out. The boards no longer call the Yellow trains northbound as Mt Vernon Sq, now it's "Mt Vernon/Conv Ctr"... why? UDC wasn't part of the initial announcement, why change it now? Mind you, the trains still go by simply "Mt Vernon Sq", likely because nothing more will fit.
Upon arrival at Gallery Place, I waited for the Grosvenor train to leave, and took the next Red Line to Shady Grove... haven't been there since 1999, while I generally hit Branch Avenue, Silver Spring, Glenmont, any of the Orange Line, and Franconia-Springfield every trip (Well, Branch Ave since it opened, before that, I'd do either ALL of the Orange, or add in Addison Road and Huntington). Next trip, I'm going to do them ALL, and that will mean a little "planting" of myself here and there to just watch them come and go... and I'll be eating lunch at Pentagon City Mall, if anyone's interested... I'll let ya know when I go.
Stayed on the same train FROM Shady Grove, but went to the front. YAY! Rohrs! Mind you, I fell asleep going up there, so it was too dark to see out the sides coming back. Wonder if Oren was at Grosvenor... yes, the bridges over I-495/I-270 are awesome. Saw the missing arch vault at Farragut North, and the lone faregate at Tenleytown-AU. FROM the train... I had to be back at the hospital by 6:45. Had I known what else would have happened there, I could have come back at 9:00 PM and not missed anything but some drain time for the batteries of my GameBoy Advance.
Anyways, jumped off at Metro Center, snagged some free maps, and got on a Blue Line to Stadium-Armory. YES,the train went past there, but I didn't. I wanted to see the signs for the arriving train's destination at the end of the platform... they didn't seem to be working, and are a bit smaller than I remember... Or was that at Rosslyn they were about two feet tall? Eh, they were brighter and working at L'Enfant Plaza, which is where I went next. After waiting for an Orange Line going west to get there. Didn't have time to poke around FT/C, but wanted to. Had to go, 'twas about 6:23 when I hit L'Enfant Plaza.
Took the next Green Line up to Columbia Heights, just so I could see Archives-Navy Mem'l along the way... never touched a Yellow train the whole trip... I'll make up for it next time. Didn't make Fran-Spring, NCR, Vienna/Fairfax-GMU, Adison Road, Silver Spring/Glenmont (I ALWAYS hit Forest Glen to just be "deep undercover... and underground"), or Branch Avenue either. Commended the T/O on my Greenbelt-Gallery Place, Shady Grove-Metro Center, and L'Enfant Plaza-Columbia Heights trips on how well they represent WMATA... they deserve a bonus for being so friendly. Took the H2 back to Washington Hospital to wait with the family... short trip, but nice... arrived in the waiting room at 6:55. Not bad. The H2 had a "Van Ness-UDC Sta" sign, but was going EAST. Does Metrobus have any New Flyer made buses? They've got so many similar buses to SEPTA... hard to believe, but I think WMATA and SEPTA are QUITE in each other's league, especially after the trip I'd made yesterday. Similar passnger counts, similar service frequencies. 70/71 there=17/33/48 here. WMATA's just more strict on cleanliness and policy, while SEPTA focuses more on equipment and information... mix their qualities, and they'd be the best in this business.
But WMATA's getting sloppy... who the hell was that SPITTING ON THE TRACKS at Georia Ave-Petworth? Who had the PuPu Platter in Chinatown, and tossed the container under the opposite platform? Cigarette butts and soda cans under the third rail at Stadium-Armory? Someone SMOKING at Greenbelt? Tsk tsk, no dessert for YOU, WMATA. You've been getting lazy. I've seen times where 8th Street on the MFL was cleaner than Stadium-Armory was when i was there.
Oh, correct me if I'm wrong, but the wall-mounted sings depicting were the arriving trai will go are only located at King Street, Rosslyn, Stadium-Armory, and L'Enfant Plaza, correct? Why not Pentagon?
Another point. The platform signs work a bit better now. Count down the minutes, then "approaching" when it leaves the next station up, and "arriving" as it gets close. I didn't have time to see how it works at close stations like Judiciary Sq/Gallery Pl-Chinatown/Metro Center on the Red Line... next time, though...
Interior-wise, the Flyers are somewhat similar, except WMATA's interior signs does not tell you the route, time and date like the ones at SEPTA.
Yes, WMATA has New Flyers.
Here's what time's I'm sure of:
3:37 - Leave Georgia Ave-Petworth
4:22 - passed Georgia Ave again.
5:02 - Where was I? I dunno.
5:53 - Metro Center
6:00 - Federal Center SW
6:13 - Stadium-Armory
6:23 - Leave L'Enfant Plaza
My Red train was mostly Bredas. The Front pair leaving Shady Grove was Rohrs, though I was more interested in the track layout and station appearance than the car numbers... But I recall a number 8 among the numbers on the Rohr car I was in... or was it the one behind me? I walked in one, then out, then into the front. But I knew it was a Rohr by the silver handles on the seats, as opposed to brown on the Bredas
Oh, and the Green Line had only two Breda consists the whole time I was on it... guess DC now stands for "Damn CAFs", 'cause I was on two, and saw about nine more... but only on Green; I didn't see a CAF on anything else (and ESPECIALLY not Red).
Six-car tains on Red, Green, and Orange. Four on Yellow (natch) and BLUE (What the hell???) Doesn't Blue need six-car consists? Considering I nearly got trampled getting off the train, yes. Where was I trampled? Stadium-Armory.
They do have them at Pentagon, but their placement is somewhat unusual compared to how the others' are. Pretend for a moment that this picture is of Pentagon Station (this picture is of Rosslyn, but for our purposes it doesn't matter). The flashing signs are actually along the arch on the upper level, mounted on the lowest row of "waffles" that's shadowed in this picture (second row up from the top of the train). I think there's two of them along that row. I believe there's also something at the end of the outbound-end of the station.
Basically, if you're standing on the upper-level platform at Pentagon, look UP.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
I believe there's also something at the end of the outbound-end of the station.
Oh... yeah, that's what I meant... THOSE signs. I assume that sentence refers to Rosslyn... Pentagon doesn't need them on the OUTBOUND end.
Also, considering the new signs mounted on the patform (see WAY in the distance of that photo) are predated by the end wall signs, I wonder why they only have them at the END transfer points. You don't see them at Crystal City, Federal Triangle, Gallery Pl-Chinatown, etc... I'm guessing WMATA figured that it's of little consequence between end transfer points (like along the original Blue/Orange alignment after Ballston opened, between Rosslyn and Stadium-Armory), since if you get on the wrong train, you can just get off before you would end up on the wrong line... but what if someone gets on at Federal Center SW and goes to sleep... and wakes up in Franconia-Springfield when they WANTED Virginia Sq-GMU... I know it's no deal now with the new sign boards, but before they installed them...
I also wonder... did WMATA have to change the signs as new stations opened? Or did they just stick something over the sign so the green ones said "Anacostia" until Branch Avenue opened? Same for the Blue.
Oh, and an interesting point...
Breda/Rohr side sign: "BRANCH AVE"
CAF sign: "BRANCH AVENUE"
I assume the CAFs and rehabbed Bredas don't use individual character spaces, but just a clear field for text (like the bus signs do, at least those on the New Flyers and on SEPTA's NABI and 60-foot Neoplans). The CAF signs rock. The Breda/Rohr signs need fixing. They're getting so old, the color stripes are fading. With the way they've directed the color scheme for flipdot signs, pretty soon, every Breda consist is going to be the Yellow Line...
Speaking of Rohrs... they've got shorter sign spaces, meant for the old rollsigns, and not long enough for the flipdot signs at times... WMATA didn't catch this?
I'll be back pretty soon.
As far as the Rohr signs... yes, the space count is the same... the window panels along the top side of the cars that the sign is placed in to be viewed by passengers on the platform is shorter on the Rohrs than on the Bredas... but that's because they needed to have a window for rollsigns anyway. If I'm not mistaken, the Breda and CAF cars have the sign built into the car, instead of placed in a space for it. Rohr cars weren't built for flipdot/LED signs, and I'm surprised WMATA hasn't figured that out yet and extended the windows for the signs to fit entirely... or at least the display on them to fit entirely.
I hope the next cars WMATA orders have FORWARD-FACING front seats. I'd like a railfan window similar to that of the M4 cars up here.
How did you do that green stripe there?
What are you referring to there?
The current setup works fine, you don't need to see the last letter to figure out where the train is going. Except on the Red Line and some limited exceptions on the Orange Line, all trains serve all stations on the line.
The Rohr flipdots occupy one of the former roll sign locations. The other roll sign is now the exterior speaker and that panel used to say "metrorail" before the speakers were installed.
The 6000 Series cars will have a different interior layout but the railfan seat remains the same AFAIK. Sorry.
I'm going out of town tomorrow, if you want to continue this discussion, I suggest e-mailing me as well as posting here. I doubt when I get home I'm going to want to hunt all the way through messages from Thursday and Friday to find a reply to this post.
E-mail to o_transit_page_webmstr@hotmail.com, not the address I've hyperlinked in my posts.
This is annoying. Somehow it's acceptable that there is an airport named after John F. Kennedy, but yet when there's an airport named after Ronald Reagan, everyone is up in arms.
Do I sound bitter over it? Yup!!
Mark
Your bitterness is misplaced.
Debt is not always a negative. People simply don't understand that.
who is the last republican who did not have an economic desaster? probably Nixon.
He's the last Republican TO have an economic disaster. His idiotic price controls kick-started the increasingly oppressive "stag-flation" (inflation without economic expansion) which characterized the 1970's. Reagan oversaw the largest peacetime economic expansion in this country's history (although recent growth is challenging that position), all with minimal inflationary effects.
While Reagan did have a overall positive effect on employment, during his first term unemployment skyrocketed to one of the highest unemployment rates ever.
Yes, in 1982, a year of deep recession, a time before the tax cuts Reagan implimented could have the positive economic effects it would later have. It's interesting that Bush II's tax cuts are having a similar effect.
Also, why does it seem like everyone has forgotten the fact that Reagan installed Hussein, Noriega, and Bin Laden
Hussein was already in power by 1981. Bin Laden came out of the Mujahadeen movement we used to thwart the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in the 1980's. We didn't create these monsters, but we did exploit them for our own personal foreign policy needs. Nobody has ever denied that.
You may not agree with his politics, but that's no reason to be calling him evil. Even if he were evil, I can think of much better examples of "evil" figures in American history, so there's no way he's the most evil.
Do you have any proof that he ever said the that at all. It is fair to criticize Reagan's handling of AIDS but to say as you have that he did so out of bigotry when you have no proof what so ever is wrong. Below is a link to a column that refutes your point much better than I can.
click here
In fairness, though, I think that Reagan made a mistake firing the air traffic controllers during his administration. For that reason I think that naming an airport after him is somewhat hypocritical. Sort of like naming a rape crisis center after a serial rapist.
I do take issue with the term evil, though. Conservative - most definitely but I hardly think he began the destruction of the working class. He did call for the elimination of the Berlin wall. He did try to destroy the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union is gone. The Berlin wall is gone but our 'working class' is doing better than ever.
Because it's cheaper that way. Basically it's the effect of immigration controls - you don't let them come into your country to work, so your companies move abroad to employ them. Countries like Britain and America are strangling their own economies. The result is the absence of a real working class, leaving the nation divided between a middle class and an underclass. I, for one, do not want where that leads.
The alternative is of course increased immigration (a seemingly losing prospect in any democratic society, as that which is becoming an underclass will oppose it out of whipped-up fear of the alien and that which can be seen as a middle class fears immigration may impact on their otium). This however will require large programmes of building social housing and public transport (not something that's exactly popular these days either).
At uneconomic rates of pay.
Corporations need to be STOPPED from dismantling any more of our BIRTHRIGHT. TREASONOUS corporations who rape America need to lose the PRIVILEGE of doing business in America Managers who are agressive in hurting this country should not be allowed to perform other than manual labor.
Sounds quite similar to how Mugabe wrecked Rhodesia and its economy.
True americans who work to protect American union jobs are fighting to see that the reagan's replacement is as cutting edge for it's time as the reagan is for today.
So true Americans will screw their country over for personal gain? That's great - are you sure that's the same country Martin Luther King was from?
Unfortunately the right wing wants to line it's pockets now with as much loot as possible and doesn't give a hoot for America's future.
You have that wrong - it's not just the right wing. It's the left too, mainly unions and NIMBYs.
Let's blame Reagan for things he deserves to be blamed for. No Soviet Union. No Cold War. I can't inderstand why the democrats have such a low opinion of the former Republican hero. Frankly, I don't even believe that John Hinkley was Reagan's fault. I'm sure it was that prissy Jodie Foster :)
Mark
You're 100% right about that. American farmers get major production subsidies while African farmers who try to export to the US face import duties.
I do have problems with US farming corporations having excellent profits at the expense of African farmers living in a state of near starvation. It's not as though if the subsidies went away African farmers would be a threat to the continued existence of US farms.
In any case, the question was whether trade laws were fair, and the answer is no, they are not. They contribute extensively to the misery of Africa.
By the way, I don't blame either Bush for this. It's been going on a long time. And the Europeans are even more guilty than the US.
It's not my intent to trivialize the plight of any poor people, anywhere but I don't understand that comment. If a farmer is living in a state of near starvation, then what does he have to sell in other countries? Historically, farmers raised crops for their families, bartered with other farmers and eventually sold crops on the open market.
As for subsidies, I seem to remember parity price supports for farmers back as far as Kennedy. Then farmers were paid not to produce milk or grow tobacco.
It's not my intent to trivialize the plight of any poor people... If a farmer is living in a state of near starvation, then what does he have to sell in other countries?
The farmland in Africa are actually quite difficult to farm -- similar to farmlands in Nebraska and the Dakotas. Because of decades of grain overproduction, U.S. Dept of Agriculture has actually been cutting farming subsidies and it has finally began to have an effect -- the Dakotas are depopulating as it became no longer economic to farm there. When you compare the quality of farmland in say, Iowa, and the kind of technologies that are available to farm it, versus the quality of farmland in Africa, and the technologies available there, of course the African farmers starve. They could go back to farming without using all the expensive breed of crops and all the fertilizers, but they would also starve -- because the land is inherently unproductive without the fertliziers etc. Immigration regulations has limited their ability to move elsewhere, so they are stuck with the unproductive farmland.
Ya, it's a problem. But it's their problem, and not ours. There's probably ways they can make their farms go (or if not, they could move around and find more productive lands -- surely these exist in Africa somewhere?) With the relatively few border controls and governmental structure in that part of the world, they could afford to be a lot more imaginative than they have been -- instead of whining that the large companies are sucking all the profits out of there.
AEM7
Google Africa + economist + agricultural + import + duties and you will see many distinguished people who claim it's a problem partly due to the policies of the west.
Certainly African governments have served their people very poorly. I don't disagree with that in the slightest. However, the richest countries of the world have made their markets less accessible to goods produced in Africa (and other poor countries) by their agricultural policies. Just because many African governments are run by criminals doesn't excuse the behavior of the western world.
"And I don't like it when you side with a foreign nation over the United States"
I'm not siding with one nation against another. There's plenty of culpability to go around. And I don't care if you like my opinions or not.
We have common opinions on lots of things. We both like the Sea Beach Line (though I tend to ride a different portion of it than you are interested in).
Sorry for throwing it in as a response to YOU here, I really don't want to dig all the way back to where it was first said as I wasn't following this thread in the first place. But yes, he did in fact say that. That he said it in front of a select group that didn't release transcripts (and the "regular media" was barred from the convention) doesn't mean he didn't say it.
As for the "teevee show" on Reagan, it was worse than I could possibly imagine (had Showtime anyway) and I suffered through it ONLY so I wouldn't have to watch that pile of parrot droppings ever again. I'm surprised that neither the "Berkely episode" nor the "Black Panthers in the capitol" parts of the Reagan story made it to the teeny screen, and found the entire show so idiotic that had the GOP just kept their mouths shut about it, nobody would have watched more than three minutes of it in the first place. It was THAT bad. :)
Gotta admit though, his bankrupting of the Evil Empire was a stroke of genius on that part of his advisors. Only took us about 15 years to dig out of it ourselves.
click here
The SPECIFIC however is that it was Jerry FALLWELL who originally said it, Ronnie merely agreed and repeated the words when asked if he disagreed with the statement. He made no bones about it, he agreed with that familiar shrug of his at the podium. It was such a hot potato at the time that there's no further record of ANY comments about it until well into his second term ...
"I've been coming to this annual convention since 1982,"
So if he'd been speaking at that convention since 1982, I don't see how he made the statement there in 1981. Mind you, either way, I don't put much importance on whether he ever made the statement or nodded in agreement with someone else or not. I think that rather than take one instance out of context (if it ever happened) we should judge him by the totallity of his legacy.
And I'm certainly not knocking Reagan - I'm not overwhelmed by him either way either - but I heard it from his own lips on a set of Microphones I placed. But he DID say it at "Q&A time" ... and that was remarkably short.
Mark
Not to mention the fact that usually the naming of things like airports is done after a person has died as a memorial. Last I checked, Ronald Reagan was still alive. (At least technically, I unfortunately know all too well from first hand experience just how devastating a disease Alzheimer's is.)
In many ways, I think the movement to name things after Reagan in all 50 states is actually detrimental to Reagan's legacy, as it overly politicizes the process, and adds a sort of "living sainthood" type quality to the man, which no politician in our country deserves.
I fully support waiting a while after someone has passed on so that history can give a balanced judgement on their contribution to humanity before deciding to commemorate them in coins/buildings/bridges etc.
In downtown Baltimore stands the George R. Fallon Federal Courthouse, named for a career Maryland politician, General Assembly member and Democratic Congressman from Maryland for many years.
It was brand new when Fallon stood charged with corruption and bribery
in that very courthouse. He was tried, convicted and sentenced to 5 years in Federal Prison. (Allenwood Federal Correctional Facility, generally referred to as "The Farm", as been the residence of several Maryland politicians over the years.)
The lesson learned in the Free State was "Wait until they're dead before naming anything."
In the District of Columbia's case, that "local jurisdiction" is the federal government. Face it, some in the DC area were offended simply because National was renamed for a hated political figure, nothing else.
Mark
Mark
Mark
Yes it does. Home rule is merely a convenience for Congress. They ultimatley rule the District of Columbia.
I've never heard much about George Bush airport in Houston.
But as for the airport in question, I think it should be renamed Gerald Ford National Airport. All passengers would deplane by falling down the stairs to the tarmac.
Mark
Mark
Barr lost in 2002 to another incumbent in his district (thanks to redistricting).
Thanks for the correction and update.
Mark
Mark
But of course, if he hadn't been assasinated, and therefore not been put on that pedastal in the first place, New Yorkers might still be calling the airport Idlewild.
Mark
Mark
It's customary (except in New Jersey) to wait until someone is dead before naming things after them. Naming things after living people is generally done as an overt political statement and not in honor of their memory.
I have nothing against public places being named after Calvin Coolidge, even though I think he was a worse president than Reagan. I have nothing against public places being named after Reagan after he dies. In fact, as far as I'm concerned it's even OK to name things after Nixon now that he's dead.
Of course, your landing is not controlled by the same air traffic controllers as controlled the traffic before Reagan.
So what? BFD. Only those with issues against Reagan found the re-naming offensive.
Naming things after living people is generally done as an overt political statement and not in honor of their memory.
All re-namings are overtly political.
That is very true, whether it's Reagan National Airport or Cesar Chavez Park, the choice of person usually reflects what your views are. Of course, sometimes things are named after people just because the person in question donated a lot of money to something.
When I win the lottery
Gonna donate half my money to the city
So they have to name a school or a street or a park after me.
-Camper Van Beethoven
As is the opposition to such namings. The crux of the National Airport re-naming has very little to do with the fact that Reagan is still alive and everything to do with who Reagan is. Just look at those who opposed the re-naming.
If someone attempted to re-name it Clinton Airport, I'd be fuming. The only thing worthy of naming after Clinton is the recent recession we suffered through.
You mean the one while Bush was President?
That is very true, whether it's Reagan National Airport or Cesar Chavez Park, the choice of person usually reflects what your views are. Of course, sometimes things are named after people just because the person in question donated a lot of money to something.
When I win the lottery
Gonna donate half my money to the city
So they have to name a school or a street or a park after me.
-Camper Van Beethoven, "When I Win the Lottery"
Mark
I never knew that. Must have been a lot of Bund members on the local district council.
Is anything named after Nixon?
Man, look what I done started...
Then again, I didn't rename the airport, nor the station... the airport renaming is less an issue with me than the Metro station is... If you notice, NJT still refers to Newark Liberty International Airport as "Newark Airport" or "Newark Int'l Airport", but WMATA is blackmailed into changing the name of their station at National Airport... I wonder who "convinced" them to add the airport on the directional part of the wallsigns I saw at Gallery Place... Mind you, they DIDN'T mention Pentagon... gee, I wonder why...
And here are some, taken last year at a behind-the-scenes tour:
I was actually in Jamaica this morning on business and thought about taking a ride on the AirTrain, since its free today. I couldn't wait until it opened at 2:00 o'clock, though. Oh well.
On the crossovers, is that a 3rd rail on BOTH sides of the track?
Also, how many trains operate normally, and how many people have to man those TV controllers? I wonder what the savings are.
Yup (or at least it sure looks like it).
Also, how many trains operate normally, and how many people have to man those TV controllers? I wonder what the savings are.
At peak times there are currently scheduled:
4 trains in shuttle service on the inner ring
6 to 8 trains to/from Howard Beach
6 to 8 trains to/from Jamaica
So, 16 to 20 trains in motion at any given time.
I am told that the minimum staffing for the control center is 3 people - security, customer service, and propulsion/power. Once a train is placed into service by sending it a command, it operates without human intervention.
If you are sick of all these Airtrain posts, with a lot of opinions and discussion then please turn your attention somewhere else.
Example:
(5) _____THE____NEXT_____STOP_____IS_____
(5) _______W_______FARMS______SQ_________
I know I'm exaggerating but the spacing really irks me...
but if anyone has a similar font or if they can tell me where to get it, it would be great.
How does the (4) train say it....since no one has ridden the (3) R142 yet...
I SWEAR!!! THIS IS MY LAST PRONUNCIATION QUESTION!
The accent on the first and middle vowels
Your last pronunciation question ? But they're part of what makes life so interesting, and make the world go round, so to speak !
You say tomato, I say tomahto ...
Your last pronunciation question, until the next eruption of "Kosciuszko" ? One should specify whether it's the English or the Polish pronunciation.
There are to Schencks. One Schenck Avenue in ENY/Brownsville and Schenck Street in Seaview Village (Canarsie).
How could I have forgotten.
This is a Coney Island-bound F train. The next stop is West 8th Street-NY Aquarium.
I kinda like it when it had both names.
There are also two West 9th Streets in Brooklyn. One is the continuation of 9th Street in Red Hook; the other runs from Bay Parkway to 86th Street.
You asked (I am probably pissing off the people who hate R142's, with all the sound files i've posted lately):
THis is Van siclen
New lots 5, Van siclen next
BTW, when was the last time the 5 ran to New Lots?
Bill "Newkirk"
Was this exit/entrance aways there? I don't remember ever seeing it before, nor the one for LIRR Tracks 3&4 that connects with Atlantic Ave now.
This was really convenient!! By the way, the Atlantic Center office building is nearly complete and is a good looking with a plaza on the Atlantic Ave side
The story appeared in 3 different papers.
New York Daily News
New York Post
New York Newsday
Since the elevator operator simply called for help, this is something that could have been done by a station agent or the passengers themselves, or could have been observed by a surveillance camera.
If the elevator operator had intervened, that would argue for having elevator operators at every station, wouldn't it?
So how do the other trains run? Terminus to the airport, round the loop and back, or what?
Oh, and theres another shoe waiting to drop: the turnstile picture on Page 3 of the PA Airtrain brochure shows another proximity reader.
Clockwise trains are capable of using the Howard Beach/Jamaica spur, but counterclockwise trains cannot make a full circle.
Do the Howard Beach bound Howard Beach branch and the JFK bound Jamaica branch cross at grade or is there a flyover?
Ask, and it shall be provided 8-)
The photo below was originally posted in the post above mine. This is not my photo, I'm just reposting it under a different subject heading.
Anyway, that chart is a super terrific find.
According to the track map, they sure can. (By switching to the clockwise tracks.)
Oh, by the way... I will have my chance to ride the AirTrain on December 29th when I have to head to JFK in order to fly to London. How is the transfer at Jamaica from the LIRR to the Airtrain, is there a lot of stairs, because I will have some luggage with me?
Oh, and if it happens to be raining, cover your head. The Jamaica platform roofs leak, but the Airtrain terminal (with its stunning architecture) should be fine.
There is an elevator from the platform level of Airtrain down to the street level. At that point, coming out of the elevators, you can go left to the LIRR at street level. However, the LIRR station is under construction, so there's lots of scaffolding, detours, etc. around.
All the passengers in my elevator at Howard Beach were complaining about AirTrain vs. the bus - as well as those that were waiting for the train with me for half an hour. Some people went downstairs and got on some wierd half yellow bus, I don't know if it goes to the airport or not.
The cops at Howard Beach have a rumor going around that there is actually a trash can somewhere in the Howard Beach complex. They say it's on the northbound (A) platform. I didn't bother to look, but I doubt there's any truth to it. I had to hold onto my Sunkist I purchased at Euclid all the way to Jamaica. And they STILL haven't reopened the escalators to the E/J/Z from the LIRR underpass.
Who won?
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
Is there anything that stops an independent bus company from doing that?
Is this a franchise for every route or merely for the company's existence? There are plenty of independent bus companies in Queens if it's the former.
#3 West End Jeff
Mark
Mark
I haven't yet checked what happens when the last trip on a PATH Quickcard is used there - the turnstiles might give those back, too.
I saw the WTC station for the first time on Saturday. The turnstiles appear to have two different mag strip readers, one for Metrocards, one for Quickcards: if you look at the diagrams on the slot, the Quickcard goes in with the stripe on the left, the Metrocard with the stripe on the right.
Also, I noticed that proximity technology is coming: the turnstiles have the classic bump on the front, which Im sure is a proximity card reader. Maybe this will be the Quickcard replacement.
I tested this on Saturday by putting my Metrocard in the wrong way round. The turnstile spat it out, rejecting it as an invalid card.
This set in question had to hold its position before entering the station, most likely due to a red signal in front of it. While sitting there, most of the lights in the first car went off. But just in the first car.....then they came back on 15 seconds later. Then suddenly, the train lurched backwards a couple of feet and then stopped! Those same lights in the first car then went off again, and came back on about 45 seconds later.
Then the train started to enter the station. All of the cars were signed as a (6) going to PELHAM BAY PARK, except for the last car, #7600, which said LAST STOP.
I guess everybody in that car had to get off. :p
2. Are reduced fare cards accepted?
Yes. You pay the extra fare on entry and exit, not on transfer. So you would pay $10 if you enter at one place and exit at the other, but not if you just ride.
Just like SIR: pay only on entry/exit at St. George.
Anyone else reminded of "Charlie and the MTA?" :-)
The parking lot is inside AirTrain fare control. Passengers boarding AirTrain at Howard Beach from the parking lot (which charges $5 or less per 12 hours) ride for free; passengers boarding the very same AirTrain at the very same Howard Beach from the subway or the neighborhood pay $5 for the exact same ride.
You're just getting pissed now? We've been pissed about this for at least the last two months.
The walk you describe would be several miles. Since the only way onto the Airport is via the Van Wyck entrance, you'd have to walk all the way over there and then all the way to the LT lot. I'd say it would take you a few hours. Please just follow my advice for how to beat the fare.
Thats one pretty darn expensive fence to cross!
A pair of wirecutters would solve this problem nicely.....hehe
How long do you think it'll be until that happens?
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Also, the Newark Monorail works the same way: Ride the #62.
A to Lefferts -> Q10 to any of the JFK terminals -> board the AirTrain for free and ride for as long as you want (for free) as long as you don't try to exit fare control at Howard Beach or Jamaica.
If that happens to be terminal 4. The Q3/Q10/B15 will not be making the terminal circuit as of, well, some time soon. Gotta make it as annoying as possible to avoid the $5 fare, even for those who are perfectly content with the buses of old.
Expanding this a bit further...
The Q10 and B15 buses stop at Federal Circle. There's an AirTrain station nearby. You can take the bus there and ride the AirTrain for free.
We won't know about the reduced fare (S/C or H/C cards) until fare is required on the airtrain. Fares won't be required until 12:01am on Thursday December 18.
Exchange Place reopening
HBLR to 22nd Street
World Trade Center reopening
Secaucus Transfer
Airtrain JFK
Not only was this a good year, but the Naughties are shaping up to be a good decade. We might even get a Second Avenue Subway, not likely, but there's always a chance (probably more likely that the sun rises in the west tomorrow, but still).
So i'd still consider it a very productive year despite no new subway lines being opened or extended.
Next year....both sides of the Manhattan Bridge open for the first time in a long time :) :) :) While thats not a new thing technically, as discussed in another thread, since very few people remember "normal" manhattan bridge service, its essentially a new line....in most peoples' eyes
CLICK HERE FOR THE PHOTOS
www.railfanwindow.com
CLICK HERE FOR THE PHOTOS
www.railfanwindow.com
Unfortunately, that train died on us.
And this happened on a later trip, at Lefferts Boulevard.
Maybe they would have had better luck with Redbirds.
(The trade-in feature was working, at Howard Beach only. By this afternoon it had been disabled.)
THOSE BASTARDS!
IN YOUR FACE!
I tried to trade-in the card at Howard Beach, the trade-in failed. I mailed the receipt and got a CHECK for $5. Now if I invest that $5 in a new MC, I'll get $6 of value.
One thing puzzles me though. How can an M7 be going to Port Jefferson? It always says "Huntington", even if you can transfer there for Port Jefferson on a diesel.
Re: your signal question. That is just your standard US&S modular dwarf stack that the PA has engineered with some form of route signaling aspect system.
Here is a more standard dwarf stack:
More likely, it's in case they need to add an in-airport branch to new, future terminals or hotels, or perhaps the cargo area.
I'd prefer a pre-war trip, especially the triplex, but the r1 would be good too.
I know that the centenial will be reason for a lot of these trips.
No.
I took a look and couldnt find a list either. Could you please point those of us not in the know to a list, provisional or not. This will definitely assist with planning.
Thanks.
-Harry
Given that this is a new railroad, why am I not surprised?
Would you be surprised to know that they have been testing the "new railroad" for over a year and a half? (approx)
Yes, complete with doors, automated announcements, and so forth. It has been running as scheduled (but without passengers) since before Thanksgiving, including runs in the snowstorm and freezing rain storms we had recently. And they even had simulated customer service reps:
Of course, once you add those pesky humans all bets are off..
An authentic advertisement for simulated customer service.
The subway suffers from equipment problems of one kind or another every day. That's why there are people who fix those problems.
#3 West End Jeff
I can't imagine why anyone would take the shuttle bus to Lefferts and transfer to a train that isn't running.
I am sure people can exit the AirTrain to the street as well. If this is the case (I was there in the summer so I think it is) then you can exit the AirTrain using a PPR with $5 on it and then enter the subway using the unlimited.
Ever heard of an Unlimited Metrocard?
Only Pay-Per-Ride Metrocards (Cards with money on it)
will work on both subway and airtrain.
$5 for people going subway or street to airtrain.
$2 for people going street to subway.
$7 for people going airtrain to subway.
Some people when traveling from airtrain to subway
go thru 2 sets of turnstiles
when they could do so using 1 turnstile.
Which is what I was talking about.
Beam me up Scotty!
CG
-Jeff
Spent 20 minutes stuck outside Federal Circle (a SECOND time AGAIN!) before arriving at Howard Beach at 10:10 PM.
I say it's the revenge of the railfans who wanted the Rockaway Branch reincarnated!
Regards,
Mark Valera
AirTrain Service to JFK Suspended Late Wednesday, After Debut
By Dave Evans
(Kennedy Airport-WABC, December 17, 2003) AirTrain service had to be suspended late in the evening on the day of its debut Wednesday, due to power problems. There were no injuries, and those stuck on the train were being ferried to their flights as of 11:30pm.
It was a disappointing end to a much anticipated first day. After years of working on the railroad -- the first light-rail link to Kennedy International Airport made its inaugural run. The rail links the airport with stations in Jamaica and Howard Beach.
Governor Pataki and Mayor Bloomberg were on board for the train's inaugural run. And although its initial routes are in Queens, it's designed to cover other routes in the future.
But how practical is this new mode of transportation? Dave Evans put the train to the test. He reports from Kennedy Airport.
The Port Authority is very proud of this system, and they have a sign up here that says, "Great Things Are Coming to Kennedy Airport." And we wanted to put it to a test and see how great is the new AirTrain?
So we had a race -- the train, vs. one of our Eyewitness News vans.
We started at Penn Station. Photographer Tommy Leprine drove one of our vans. Destination; JFK, terminal four.
I took the LIRR, and my timing was pretty good. With no waiting at the station for a train, the trip to Jamaica took only about 30 minutes.
Tommy though was just getting to the Midtown Tunnel.
Tommy Leprine: "Soon as it starts raining, everybody forgets how to drive."
It was a bit of a schlep for me to switch from the LIRR to the AirTrain, but really not that bad. And at 2:00 on the first AirTrain trip, the passengers were pretty enthusiastic.
Lou Brida, AirTrain Passenger: "I think it's a great idea. I think it's about time we got away from the horseless carriage."
Maria Piccini, AirTrain Passenger: "It's going to save a lot of time. You don't have to wait for a taxi, or waiting or anything."
Bill Evans: "And it's cheaper."
Maria Piccini: "Oh, definitely."
The trip cost me a total of $11, and a taxi would have cost $40 or $50. It was pretty crowded, but that's probably due to it being the first day of service. And when we were about 42-43 minutes into the trip, and Terminal Four was just a few minutes away. And we were still ahead in this race.
But there were delays on our AirTrain trip. So our total trip time came out at 57 minutes.
Tommy and the news van made it in 55 minutes.
At least it was close. And late this afternoon the Port Authority was already asking for a rematch. One official said, "Come on, let's go ahead and do this again during rush hour, and when some of the kinks are worked out of the system."
In fairness, I think he was probably right. I think that eventually, going by train is going to be a lot faster than going by car. And we also know that the train is a lot cheaper than a taxi.
Plus - dare I say - corruption in the MTA.
But it could apply to the PA as well.
They said that the problem was that one of the trains "timed out" and "needed to be reset." This is coming from one of the teenage or early-20s representatives at the station who said that there would be yellow and blue shuttle buses to Jamaica to make up for the lost Airtrain service.
I waited for about 45 minutes in the cold for such a bus, which never came.
Once the Airtrain started running again after about 45 minutes to an hour, I took it back to Jamaica after a quick run to Howard Beach.
IMHO, what a waste of funds. The stations at the alriline terminals aren't even convenient. They are located well away from the terminal buildings, and you have to go through all kinds of rings-around-the-rosey to get from the airtrain, up over the roadways, then down to the terminals, waiting for elevators, taking escalators . . . all in all, I see very limited use for the damn thing other than the novelty of it.
I sure know that today was the first, and last, time I will use it, and I wasn't burdened with luggage. I can't see how people traveling with any manner of luggage will want to put up with it. It's simply a tinkertoy.
What they should have done was expand the Queens Blvd line down the Van Wyck and send it into the airport. Oh well, I guess JFK wasn't meant to have great transportation.
I doubt it though, one reason for opening Idlewild was to relieve congestion at LaGuardia. Why would something be planned to supplement LaGuardia if even LGA didn't exist yet?
Marquis Dykes
SEPTA has consen to retrofit its old cast iron US&S heads on te BSS to bare LED, but the new GRS interlocking signals on the MFL are lenses LED.
If they havent changed the signalling, there should be some signals halfway along the platform that I can take a closer look at.
Arti
Arti
The other problem that's been seen with LED signals is, despite
the fact that they are internally protected, somehow they are
prone to getting destroyed by surges. This is particularly a
problem in CIR/CIH territory where there may be a significant
length of cabling between lighting battery/transformer and
the signal head. Again, the statistical lifetime of the LEDs
far outlasts incandescents, even when run at the recommended
90% filament voltage. OTOH, usually all of the bulbs in an
area don't get knocked out at once!
If your signal aspect system is failsafe you don't have to worry about this problem much.
However, the aspect system can also be made somewhat fail safe in that with as many aspects as possible, after a burnout, the surviving aspect is more restrictive than it was with the lamp lit.
This is especially good if an engineer needs to take some sort of good train handling action before he actually passes the signal, as is the case with Medium Approach.
One example of this failsafe philosophy is that the only time you will see a green lamp lit on the top head is for a full clear.
I would say that the problem with the cold filament lamp-out check is that it doesnt apply and that a replacement technique may be necessary.
I would also say that the Mark II LED needs better surge protection!
CLIFTON PARK is where the Baltimore Term Sub goes from 2 tracks to 1 track in order to fit through the tunnels en route to downtown. This route was single tracked in the 50's as part of a clearance project. In 1896 the first mainline electrifacation in the world was installed from this point to Camden Station due to steam trains needing help on the steep (and evident in this pic) grades. CLIFTON PARK is a Y interlocking, which means all route through it can give a straight clear aspect (maximum speed). CSX seems to enjoy these sorts of interlockings, but they are not as popular on other roads. I am not sure why not.
the photos are located at:
http://palter.org/~brotzman/10-12-03_CLIFTON_PARK/
And here are some teasers.
As in this image here.
Aw wow, aren't these just asthetically lovely??? Thing of beauty. I shudder to imagine them in a nice fresh coat of paint.
Look, I love how its labeled "FRONT".
the ladder has been cut off due to vandalism.
Sorry about the lack of front pics...the light and all.
Here is the main head unit of the B&O CPL. It can display 4 colour-positions with 8 lamps. Note the exposed wireing and anti-vandalism screen.
Here are a closeup of the orbitals. Again note the exposed wires and the accrobatics it must take to change the bulbs.
Here are both together. Wasps just love these things.
Note the severity of the grade.
Sort of a solar eclipse effect here.
and here...
Stupid sun...
In this one, note the severe grade leading up to the interlocking. Also note the circular stone overpass which are a hallmark of the cut through the Baltimore city proper.
This bridge is over some big road that serves the once proud Clifton Park Park. The park must have been really nice back in the day, it has a big pool and a bunch of other depression era work project structures. Now it just tries not to be a open air drug market.
Here is a new Insulated Rail Joint. Note the use of Panderol brand Panderol clips instead of spikes and not the off brand clips now used by some concrete tie makers.
And the stamping on the rail. Interestingly enough its from a 2003 roll (most rail sits around for decades) and weighs 136 pounds per yard.
To be precise May 2003, Thats what the 5 | to the left of the year signify.
Would believe that there are sections of rail still in service, mind you not on main lines that have roll dates that go back to the 1890s.
I know of two such locations.
Snow Hill sub on the Maryland & Delaware and Union Pacifics Mojave Yard in Mojave California.
John
Tonight, about 6:30pm, while I was aboard car 118 (which had flat wheels at the lead end; this was verified by an on-board Bombardier employee) at the Federal Circle stop, a woman was caught in the platform doors as they were closing. There were no sensors on those doors to reopen them, and it took two Airtrain attendants to manually pull back the doors. The woman was petrified. The doors on the train itself did not close. Right after this incident, I asked the Bombardier representative why there weren't any door sensors and he replied that it had previously been determined they weren't necessary, as the train couldn't move unless both the platform and train doors were closed. Perhaps the train couldn't move, but suppose there were no attendants to assist this woman in releasing her from the doors. Obviously, this in itself could shut down the system, in addition to causing tremendous emotional stress and perhaps the onset of a heart attack or worse should an elderly or medically-weak person be the victim of such an occurrence.
Another question I asked was why there was no emergency cord or other means to stop the train should something wrong happen. He replied that there was an emergency call box and silent tape in the car, that would connect that car with the command center, where assistance could be summoned or the train stopped. Fine, but perhaps a passenger riding at the "railfan window" saw something amiss, such as a person or debris on the tracks. The Bombardier representative replied that no debris could get on the system, since it was almost entirely elevated (not true, there are both sections of subway and on ground private right-of-way), and the designers felt it was not necessary to provide emergency stop mechanisms within the train cars. Thus, in my opinion, the possibility of a derailment from debris or even a person on the tracks may well exist.
The cars themselves rode quite smoothly, and acceleration was quick, but the braking was a bit rough as the cars came to a final stop at each station. On three of the four different cars I rode, the station announcing systems within the cars did not work in the voice mode, and on one the visual announcements were also inoperative.
The Airtrain connection at Jamaica is good for those coming from Eastern Long Island via the Long Island Rail Road, as all auto traffic problems can be avoided. As for those coming from Manhattan, it may be practical if coming from the West Side using the Long Island Rail Road from Pennsylvania Station, but, from the East Side it may not pay, timewise, to do so.
One of the biggest problems, I believe, is going to be with baggage. Tonight, I saw a family of four with a huge amount of luggage leave Airtrain with a huge amount of luggage on two big luggage carts and from what I overheard they were headed for the subway. Well, these folks are surely in for a surprise. How are they going to get that luggage on to a subway train? Even if they took the LIRR, how much space would the luggage take away from regular commuters, in addition to increasing the dwell time in order for the passengers to board and leave the train with a large amount of luggage? I can just see that family going onto the streets of Jamaica, with its excess of undesirable street people in the Jamaica Station area, seeking to get on the subway. It would not surprise me to see some of these local characters trying to aerate some possessions the Airtrain passengers.
Proponents of downtown Jamaica have stated that the Airtrain is going to be the biggest boon to this fallen shopping center in its history. Those saying so have their heads in the sand, buried deeply. No one in his right mind is going to venture outside of Jamaica Station where they may be pounced upon by the local population. If anyone thinks Airtrain is going to provide an economic boom for the Jamaica area, I suggest they open their eyes to what is walking on the streets.
Had Airtrain been properly designed, it would have been integrated with either the subway, LIRR, or both, using cars specially designed for this type of service. But the Port Authority, in its infinite wisdom, designed a system that is not only way overbuilt (the stations are so huge for one and two car trains it has to be seen to be believed), but totally incompatible with even other rail systems run by the Port Authority. If such a system were necessary in Europe, the airport rail cars would share trackage with the regular railway network through the use of compatible cars and professional signaling. One only has to look at the tremendously successful and practical system in Karlsruhe, Germany (and now being quickly copied in other cities and countries), where streetcars and high speed freight and passenger trains share the same tracks and stations, to see it could have been easily designed this way, with a tremendous cost savings. Had the Port Authority done its homework professionally when designing the system, it would have been seen that it was possible to provide direct one-seat rail service from JFK International Airport to Newark Airport, via Pennsylvania Station, by the simple use of a railcar designed to operate both in a rapid transit and railway environment, as in Karlsruhe. But, instead of doing their homework properly, I guess the designers "cut class."
One final note. If one enjoys riding roller coasters, then they will also enjoy Airtrain. Good speeds and sharp curves add to the ride's enjoyment. Some may like it, others may not.....
By your logic, the 42nd Street Shuttle is light rail.
I agree 100%.
Whether PATH is unsafe, or the toll bridges, I can't say, but I haven't seen evidence. There certainly doesn't seem to be the same sort of centralized management directive like at, say, NASA, to cut corners in all departments the same way.
What we also learned from the tragedy was about pancakeing: when the towers eventually did collapse, each floor collapsed straight over the previous one. Maybe we could devise a structure/bracing that would minimize this possibility.
Back on topic, perhaps -- everybody should be able to get out two ENDS of the building (unlike the upper floors, where the impact took out the core with both, large, intertwined stairways). This is why the York St fire scared me so much -- one exit, or under the river.
This is a common misconception. Nearly all of the jet fuel either burned out or was carried away in the smoke cloud in the first few seconds. The rest of the fire was caused by burning office equipment. The jet fuel was only a starter.
:0)
Airtrain was built with Federal Airport Tax funds collected as surcharges on passenger tickets. The stipulation was that any allocation of these funds must be used EXCLUSIVELY for airport purposes, and not intended for everyday commutation. As such, there can be no commingling of rolling stock or right-of-way.
While I disagree with what had to be built as a result of the stipulation, I can understand that funds collected at the airport should be used for the airport, and not transferred to general funds for general purposes. This was probably the biggest obstacle to using the Rockaway right-of-way for the purpose of creating a route to the airport.
I am sure that if the Federal rule was amended, or if the PA could have lobbied for its amendment, the PA and all parties involved would have been more than happy to create the relatively simpler in scope and heavier duty direct connection using either or both the subway and LIRR. Then again, New York area governmental agencies and pols aren't known for their sticking their necks out on the public's behalf. Oh well.
On the other hand, had the abandoned Rockaway connector been
re-used for this project, no intermediate stations would have
been permissible.
So are you saying that if a spur to JFK off the Railroad were built at Jamaica, LIRR trains would run non-stop from one station, whether it be Penn Station, Flatbush Avenue, or Jamaica, specifically and exclusively to JFK? It had better be, otherwise a train from Penn Station stopping at Woodside, Forest Hills, Kew Gardens and Jamaica picking up pax on the way to JFK would then be considered as benefitting commuters as well.
How many such one-stop services would be provided? A good case could be made for four: Penn Station. Jamaica. Flatbush Avenue. Woodside (for transfer from the 7 Train). Ronkonkoma would be another logical terminal, serving ISP and most of Eastern Long Island, but is not entirely necessary.
How many trains per hour would make the journey, taxing rolling stock requirements of the predominantly commuter LIRR? Too few (to conserve rolling stock), and the service would not be viable enough for people to ride. Too many (to provide frequent service) screws commuters who couldn't care less about the airport. Not to mention slot restrictions at Penn Station: How will all the extra trains be fit in?
It seems to me that the PFC-use rule was written in such a way to make it much easier for this virgin and entirely separate system to operate instead of reasonably accommodating applications that may be mixed use but are predominantly airport-related.
For example, the way it sounds to me, if the N train were extended by the use of PFC to LaGuardia Airport, more cars would be required to supply the service. More cars means generally more service along the entire length of the line. More service along the entire length of the line means an indirect subsidy to commuters because the new service will not be used exclusively for airport runs. Even if a fraction of the trains would make the trip to the airport, who is to say someone boarding anywhere along the line would want to go to the airport if the train will stop at every single existing station?
Or, suppose it was built with a couple of residential stops along the new PFC-funded right-of-way. Who is to say someone boarding along the line won't go to the airport, and instead to one of those new stops along the PFC-funded right-of-way?
This is why the system had to be purpose-built, which meant, for all intents and purposes, a virgin system not connected to anything, needed to be devised.
Surely they would have been permissible as long as the PA didn't pay for them?
I would hope with computer train control that the only time a train stops between stations is because there is a problem: speeds are controlled so that trains do not conflict on switches.
OTOH, I have been on the Newark Airtrain when it has stopped in the middle of the long run from the airport to the NE Corridor station for apparently no reasonI couldnt see anything in front. Maybe the computer crashed and it took 5 minutes to reboot!
From what I observed, no.
They are already thinking expansion, as in the interviews they mentioned eventually having a one seat ride to Manhattan. Look how the Daily News says: "Travelers took a ride on the much-anticipated AirTrain from Kennedy Airport to Manhattan for the first time yesterday." Plus, the ideas have been tossed around for awhile now (I hope they don't go with that taking over parts of the subway idea). They had to get the core section open first, then start thinking about expanding.
That's scary.
I've always assumed that systems with platform doors necessarily have elaborate sensor systems to ensure that nothing and nobody gets stuck between the platform doors and the car doors. Up high, there's a large gap between the doors. A small piece of luggage, or a baby(!), could easily get separated from its holder and land between the doors as they close.
And the passengers are left to push the tape to activate the silent alarm. Brilliant!
AirTrain works like many otherairline circulators. Your comments imply you have not used the systems in place at Denver's airport, or in Atlanta.
"One of the biggest problems, I believe, is going to be with baggage. Tonight, I saw a family of four with a huge amount of luggage leave Airtrain with a huge amount of luggage on two big luggage carts and from what I overheard they were headed for the subway. Well, these folks are surely in for a surprise. How are they going to get that luggage on to a subway train?"
The same way they do in Boston (Blue Line to the airport), in Atlanta, or using SEPTA's R1 Line. Your observations about subway crowding are valid, and it may be in the TA's best interest to introduce luggage racks of some kind on subway trains. Time will tell. Nopte however, that maqny business travelers already travel will only one suitcase or attache case, and these people are already on the subway. All in all, not a serious problem.
"Proponents of downtown Jamaica have stated that the Airtrain is going to be the biggest boon to this fallen shopping center in its history. Those saying so have their heads in the sand, buried deeply. No one in his right mind is going to venture outside of Jamaica Station where they may be pounced upon by the local population."
You obviously have no idea what downtown Jamaica looks like. I've been there many times, most recently the last 3 days in a row. I've seen the area evolve over the last 20 years and I like what I see. Your remark reflects a profound ignorance about Jamaica. I strongly suggest you do a little walking around there yourself. I find the naivete in your post distressing and saddening. But that's your problem, not anyone else's.
By the way, an airport conference center is already in the works, and the new mall and markets are doing a very good business. And right across is York College.
It's easy to cast aspersions on others' accomplishments. You have nothing to offer other than general comments about how Europeans do things, and while those systems work in their environment, they do not address issues like FRA regulations in this country.
If you don't like AirTrain, you don't have to ride it. But just yesterday, I was approached by at least a dozen individuals asking directions to it. Maps and signs need to be updated - the MTA maps in the stations don't show AirTrain yet, and that's a problem, though PA ads in the LIRR have been helpful.
I hope you have a good holiday. May you find peace wherever you are.
If you start your trip on an ADA compliant LIRR station such as Bayside, which has generous ramps, or Broadway, which has ramps, and transfer to AirTrain, even with several people you will have no trouble.
But wouldn't that be a little inconvenient? To have to go into Woodside or Penn Station and get another Jamaica bound train? Riders on the P.W. branch probably won't be doing that connection much. Unless...unless the LIRR offers a Great Neck to Jamaica train. Maybe it could do a reverse move at Woodside. It's probably not going to happen but I think there would be a market for such a service. You could board at those stations with all your luggage and still get the two-seat convenience Jamaica allows for all the other branches.
Also, it'd be easier to extend airtrain up the Van Wyck then along LIRR tracks for about half a mile to the Flushing station, then tryin to make a track that would be able to curve that sharp of an angle at winfield, and then it'd have to cross all those main line tracks.
(Still, just how does a resident of, say, Bayside, or Great Neck get to JFK airport now? ISTM that getting to Jamaica (via transit) from those areas would take as much time as it would from Hicksville, or even Bablylon. So we can agree that to connect to the AirTrain from any station out to, maybe, 40 miles east of Jamaica is a MUCH easier task than getting there from somewhere in Nassau or Queens not on a Jamaica-connecting train.)
I took the Q30 bus from Springfield Blvd. to Jamaica Station three times this week. The slowest part of the ride was as the bus turned west on Jamaica Av and got stuck in traffic. That's where the problem is, of course.
I not too happy with this but I think you would have to use one of the Shea Stadium stations for any connecting AirTrain service. And you can't say they could do the same thing in Flushing as they did in Jamaica either. The landscape's not the same. Flushing LIRR station is a mere shadow of Jamaica LIRR station.
But I don't know everything, after all. Where exactly in Flushing could you envision a AirTrain station?
The fact that Flushing is so overloaded transit wise is the perfect reason to send airtrain there. Like I said, all those bus connections can only do good for it.
As far as space goes...they wouldn't have the problem if they would actually build something to shove all the buses and passengers in. The area looks as if it were crying for a bus terminal building.
Transferring at Woodside means adding two elevators to your trip. I agree with you. It is more inconvenient than a one-seat ride to the AirTrain terminal.
(To paraphrase something Larry Littlefield said previously, Since we didnt define the criteria up front, we cant say whether this is a success or not)
Personally, I am not griping about the $5 fee at Newark, since it is cheap compared to the parking cost. We will have to see what happens with the pricing at JFK, but I think that the cost of long-term parking will probably have to go up to encourage some of the diehard automobilers off the roads.
What alternative form of public transit did you have in mind?
Service was suspended at around 10:30 p.m. I hiked it through the Long-Term parking terminal back to the Howard Beach station of the A.
However, within the past 1/2 hour I got word that the AirTrain services has been restored and that 2 SubTalkers of note are riding the AirTrain over the Van Wyck and into Jamaica station. I'm sure by tomorrow morning (this morning actually) we will get full reports from one or both of them...
Here's a full report of my trip: It was as antiseptic and sterile as riding in an elevator, except horizontally. It had the allure of an intra-terminal tramway system, only longer and more scenic. It was made for either ignorant or retarded tourists unaccustomed to using public transportation in any form, and is an insult to the sensibilities of transportation-savvy New Yorkers. Glass walls in the stations shielding the doors of the vehicle itself? Exhortations to hold on when the train is moving? Do people really need to be so protected from themselves?
(Seriously though, for what it is worth, the ride was more than comfortable. The cars were nearly silent in their operation, and quite swift, although a bit chilly, as at least the cars I was on blew cooled air within. The seats, though necessarily thinly padded, were supportive and actually ergonomically correct. And the cleanliness was impeccable. Let's see how long THAT lasts! And, there was a PICTURE WINDOW for railfans, at least three feet wide and four feet high, at the front. It even included a windshield wiper!)
As I reported in a previous post, as a tourist, I would be spitting mad having to pay five dollars, through a metrocard I would never use again anyway, to take this last leg on a very indirect journey from Manhattan or Long Island when I could just skip all the trouble and take a cab, limo, or even airport bus directly from wherever it is I am going.
True, it could work out much cheaper than a cab, limo, or airport bus to take the Airtrain and any combo of LIRR, bus or subway, but as a traveler, my comfort and certainty of direct access during the highly stressful event of travel is worth the premium over the possibility of one or more links in the public transportation chain I would have to take to the airport failing, leaving me late for my flight. A private or semi-private surface vehicle can maneuver around obstacles or setbacks, while with public transportation, as was more than made evident by tonight's short shutdown of Airtrain, it's a wrap if there is a problem anywhere within the system.
WRONG! Platform doors are the wave of the future. They are used in such "transportation-savvy" cities as Paris and London. It's about time this city enters the 21st Century.
I can picture you sounding like those Saturday Night Live parodies of John McLaughlin of The McLaughlin Group saying this. LOL
wayne
Heh. I've been saying this all along. AirTrain will never fulfill its intended function because its not a one seat ride from Manhattan.
$2 billion wasted. And the Rockaway line that could've provided that one seat line remains abandoned.
Sheesh. Where do they GET these people?
By the way, the Rockaway Line still goes to the airport. I mean is there that much of a time difference going through Fulton Street Bklyn as opposed to Queens Blvd or the LIRR Main Line?
Me I would take the LIRR/AirTrain combo
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
This post I posted earlier begs for an explanation from Bombardier and the PA to the public. Bombardier has over 30 years experience with these systems. Some of their other APM examples run more trains, carry more people and run tighter headways than the Airtrain and they do it without breaking a sweat. What is cursed about the Airtrain that it can't run right?
There were many disqualifications in error, too. At leasta few are already corrected. People with years and years told they were not in title long enough and such like.
Pardon me for being nosy, but this is classic Grass is greener.
The D was a nice two round tripper "back in the day" ... and lengthy too. You're right though. It IS a hell of a ride, but the day does seem to go faster and be less repetitive in B division. So what's in the cards, boobe? Back to the 4?
Gotta do what ya gotta do though and if a pick chews, you move on with no pangs of guilt, bro. :)
I have recently needed to ride the #8 bus up towards and away from Towson a few times and I have litterally been able to count the number of non-block riders that have ridden with in, in total, on one hand. I have riden at a variety of times between noon and 6:30 and Lisa Simpson is correct in her observation that the bus is where the poor and very poor alike ride togeter in harmony. Now I know that Baltimore seems to have a reputation for downtroddenness, but this bus does not uniformly traverse slums, it goes to and from a nice suburban area, so why does it remain so painfully segrigated compared to...well...the world.
What causes this effect? Do white folks really not want to ride with minorities? Do they just not want to ride with the poor? Or is it that everybody loathes buses and only the poor, who have no other option, are left riding them.
I would much appriciate other subtalker's views and experiances re: this and any ideas on how to better warm up people to taking transit.
This post is entirely factual in nature. Any inference that opinion has been posted here is strictly untrue.
Couldn't it be that certain classes of people of all races would rather spend their money on personal modes of transportation because they feel that their comfort, time, safety, or schedule is better addressed through owning a car or hiring a cab rather than relying on public transportation that may not be as conducive to their needs, regardless of what races or classes are riding it?
I am by no means rich, yet I own my own car for just these reasons. I know my car is not necessary at all for most of the missions on which it is used, but this is my luxury item. You might choose plastic surgery, a better brand of booze, or more renowned college as your luxury item. We all have luxury items. Even the poor -- just on a smaller scale.
For you to hypothesize through your post that the main reason people don't utilize public transportation hinges on race, or that a majority of people who don't utilize public transportation do not do so because of race, tortiously oversimplifies the matter. There may be hundreds of steps in between "I don't take the bus to work" and "There are many blacks on buses" that mitigate that straight-line relationship to nearly nothing, and I have illustrated four of them, all of which carry far more credibility than there simply being more minorities on public transportation.
Minorities may just happen to be the majority of the poor in many larger cities capable of supporting huge transit infrastructure, causing them to be overrepresented on public transportation vehicles. Plain and simple. There is no cynical conspiriacy here to use mass transit as the cradle of promoting segregation within our society again.
>>> I would much appriciate other subtalker's views and experiances re: this and any ideas on how to better warm up people to taking transit.
I don't think it is possible to warm more people toward taking mass transit than there already are because public transportation can't be everything to everybody. It operates to a common denominator of schedule, comfort, and range that simply is not within a sizeable segment of the population that made its mind up long ago. Changing the denominator will result in either too much money being spent, or many of those who rely on the system
Couldn't it be that certain classes of people of all races would rather spend their money on personal modes of transportation because they feel that their comfort, time, safety, or schedule is better addressed through owning a car or hiring a cab rather than relying on public transportation that may not be as conducive to their needs, regardless of what races or classes are riding it?
I am by no means rich, yet I own my own car for just these reasons. I know my car is not necessary at all for most of the missions on which it is used, but this is my luxury item. You might choose plastic surgery, a better brand of booze, or a more renowned college as your luxury item. We all have luxury items. Even the poor -- just on a smaller scale that doesn't inculde purchasing automobiles.
For you to hypothesize through your post that the main reason people don't utilize public transportation hinges on race tortiously oversimplifies the matter. There may be hundreds of steps in between "I don't take the bus to work" and "There are many blacks on buses" that mitigate that straight-line relationship to nearly nothing, and I have illustrated four of them, all of which carry far more credibility than there simply being more minorities on public transportation.
Minorities may just happen to be the majority of the poor in many larger cities capable of supporting huge transit infrastructure, causing them to be overrepresented on public transportation vehicles. Plain and simple. There is no cynical conspiriacy here to use mass transit as the cradle of promoting segregation within our society again.
>>> I would much appriciate other subtalker's views and experiances re: this and any ideas on how to better warm up people to taking transit.
I don't think it is possible to warm more people toward taking mass transit than there already are because public transportation can't be everything to everybody. Nor should it be. It operates to a common denominator of schedule, comfort, and range that simply is not within the tolerances of a sizeable segment of the population that made its mind up long ago. Changing the denominator will result in either too much money being spent to capture too little an increase in ridership, or that many of those who rely on the system as it is will be forced into other alternatives for whatever reason.
The way to do it is with urban planning that makes transit a viable option. This means land-use patterns that allow higher populations densities. If a lot of people are commuting to and from the same spot transit is more viable. Likewise, driving will be less viable because the routes to that place will be more congested. Also, land-use patterns should allow for workplaces and retail to be close to residences. This makes living without a car more viable.
Building cities on this "Manhattan model" can make people use transit. I cite Manhattan itself and other cities with downtowns like it: San Francisco, Chicago, etc. Here it is possible for people to live without cars and people do, even people who can afford them.
But this is not the norm, and given the sprawling suburban-style land use patterns where homes are spread out and far from any businesses by order of the zonig ordinances, it's hard to make transit convenient to use, to cars will be the mode of choice.
Mark
I mean its like white people here equate taking the bus with like contracting smallpox.
Could his decision be based on the fact that, by nature, buses are slow relative to cars? They have to stop dozens of times over the course of their route to pick up and discharge passengers. They are further slowed because they catch more than their fair share of red lights due to delays caused by this constant stopping in addition to that required for traffic lights. Stuff like this would make me jittery after ten minutes. I ride the bus occasionally, and it does. I feel as if I am getting nowhere quickly.
Could it also be that your friend is not comfortable around the unfamiliar and varied people who frequent buses? Some of them may be quite, um, eccentric. Some may have kids screaming constantly for no apparent reason. Some smell bad for any number of reasons. I would have no desire to make their acquaintence, even as casually as during a bus trip. I understand that not all of these scenarios may occur on each bus trip, and that maybe a majority of bus trips don't pan out with such characters involved, but it happens often enough to not want to consider the bus on a regular basis.
Are either of these prejudices race based? NO! Are they based on legitimate concerns that might have been blown a bit out of proportion but are sound nonetheless as factors contributing to one's choice not to ride a bus?
>>> I mean its like white people here equate taking the bus with like contracting smallpox.
Mike, again, you are clawing and groping for a racial angle to this matter of simple personal choice based on many different factors having nothing to do with race. You say nothing about blacks who eschew the bus for other means of transportation for the same reasons in your broad assumption that it is only the whites who avoid the bus. I am not going to fall for your racial hucksterism.
I didn't think my friend was a racist, I just felt, for whatever related reasons (be them "safety" or "not blending in"), he had unfairly rejected the bus out of hand.
Flip.
>>> The fact that 95% of the MTA ridership is black just seals the deal subconsiously.
Flop.
>>> I didn't think my friend was a racist . . .
Flip, again.
I DO NOT HAVE A PROBLEM WITH YOU.
I have been a lurker on this board for much of the past four years. I know a lot more about the people on this board than the people on this board know about me. If you don't believe me, I know the following about you:
- You take pictures largely of New Jersey Transit-related infrastructure.
- Your "expertise" resides in right-of-way signals.
- You coordinate field trips on the Port Jervis line which are based on the history of the right-of-way.
- You vigorously defend the safety of overdesigned, simple, and sturdy rolling stock over lighter vehicles despite equal arguments against this line of thought.
I also know that you have agreed with me on one occasion when I took another poster to task for his wanting to eliminate the pictures of women associated with trains on this site for his own personal reasons. You said words to the effect of my bringing tears to your eyes with my seriousness as opposed to your satire.
Most importantly, I know many posters have resorted to calling you names like "Jerky Mike" or otherwise ridiculing you or your posts when you don't want to learn from others' arguments against yours. If you may recall from that post I referenced above (which, unfortunately, has been deleted, despite you and another two posters agreeing with me), I didn't call the subject of the post a "jerk," nor did I ask him what the f*** his problem was in making his statements.
I haven't called you names in any of my posts to you. I did not respond to valid arguments with a snide "What the f*** is your problem." I have no prejudice against you, despite what others may think of you on this board. I am neither on your side nor against you. What are you looking to accomplish -- as if you care -- with your statement?
Now . . . what is my problem? I will tell you what: It is bullshit. Bullshit is my problem. I don't care who posts it. I am against it. And to me, finding a racial angle -- starting an incendiary thread, "Minority Transit Administration" and begging people to disagree with your assumptions about why WHITES don't want to ride with BLACKS on buses, as if the whole thing were thusly linked -- to a non-racial matter smacks of 100% pure caca del toro, and you just happen to be the offender this time.
The U.S., unlike Europe, decided in the 60's that transportation would be included in Great Society subsidies. So, like anything that is priced lower than it costs, there was too little of it, and it got crummy, and (of course) we had terrific roads and cars for the people who had even a little extra to spend. So we had a policy of awful bus service and, bada bing, bada boom, here we are.
Because outside London, buses suck! Seriously, regulation should be reintroduced so that there is some coherence in the bus networks in Britain's major cities and in terms of fares.
Oh - by the way - hurrah! London has finally abolished zonal fares for buses (from January 4th, 2004). Now everything will cost 1, unless you pre-pay or buy a Bus Saver book of six tickets, both of which will be 70p.
Imagine the delay this avoids on the crappy new one-man operation buses:
- "How much to the Wandsworth Road?"
- "Where on the Wandsworth Road?"
etc...
There are a few buses (such as the 293, 406, 407, 408, 418, 470 and most things with K prefixes) which you'll still get the debate as to quite how much the fare is, as they cross the magic line somewhere in a housing estate between Ewell and Cheam.
It's funny you mention this. There is a definate split in who rides what here in Brooklyn. Just about everyone rides the subway, but women are somewhat less likely. On the other hand, Whites, especially non-eldelry whites, are much less likely to ride the bus.
It may have to do with income, and auto ownership. Even if you have a car, there is a reason to take rail transit -- for a quick ride to a place where parking is scarce and expensive, like a big downtown or stadium. But there is no reason to take a bus, since they are so slow and unreliable as a result of all those autos. Better to be in the auto. I seldom ride a bus now that I have an auto, and only then because I am a transit fan trying something different on purpose.
The elderly and poor are more likely not to be drivers, so they have to take transit everywhere, even where buses do not go. And minorities are more likely to be poor in NYC. Thus, you find them on the buses.
OT details -- NYC whites are more likely to be college graduates than suburban whites, though they have lower average income because they tend to be younger. In contrast, the average Black or Latino in the suburbs is far better off than those in the City (or even the average white Upstate) in every way. It seems that the trend of better off people living in central cities has not spread to Blacks and Latinos. Perhaps they are less able to get around the lousy schools.
I suppose women are somewhat less likely to ride the subway because they consider it less safe.
There's another situation going on to, and I don't think it's so much not wanting to ride with the "poor" people. I really don't like being the only "white"(I hate the term "white") person hanging around a transit center or on the bus. First, I can't blend, and then I just plain stand out at that point sometimes. That's not to be confused if you're the best dressed person in an area..."well lookee here, a rich boy". But how often am i dressed up to take a bus unless i'm wearing a name tag?
People like to migrate and at least be around like people. Panera Bread vs. inner-city micky dee's. Then of course, there was that time i got on the bus, the people went quiet, i heard one white joke, and got a transfer "for just in case" by the driver. But that was in one of the more racists northern areas.
I think it's more a factor of demographics than socioeconomics, but then again, a lot of the time the both go hand in hand. That's why express bus service in coaches is a good idea in theory(if it had laser cannons to beat out traffic), but nicely engineered rail will attract everyone, or at least not be "For Rejects Only".
I've always been fascinated by the subject myself.
Why, have you ever been assaulted by a non-white person?
You will deny this, but your statement is an admission of personal racism. And no, I don't throw that out often.
What irks me about people who cry "Racism!" is that they often use the word without knowing whether or not the choices people make are, in fact, based on racial superiority of themselves over others. This abuse of the R word has served to reduce it to little more than a schoolyard taunt.
It could very well have been racism, but let's give this guy the benefit of the doubt here for just a second. Please bear with me, so that we may try to find some sort of satisfactory "middle" between what he said and what you said:
Suppose he has had negative experiences with people outside his own race over his lifetime. Many negative experiences. Would his apprehension be explained or understood under those circumstances? What can be done to help him alleviate his apprehension? Will calling him a racist help?
Suppose he had no negative experiences, but just made a personal choice not to associate with others outside his specifications, including people outside his race. Did he mention he is doing this because he is "better" than they are -- the one true definition of racism? Who are you or anybody else to assume he did, or that your personal choices should be imposed upon everybody because they are more "enlightened?"
In reality, there is no way to prove racism unless one explicitly makes statements judging himself superior to others based on race. Implying racism just because a situation involves racial issues but no clearly defined pronouncement of superiority exposes one's inability to debate these issues on their merits alone.
When did i say i was better. In the original post, I said I can't blend in when I'm the only one of my kind. I don't want to be the only one in anything. I wouldn't want to be teh only guy in an expensive suit in a bus full of migrants. Am i discriminating based on income now?
No, i'm just pointing out the fact why there's a such thing as a Super-Wal-mart and a SuperTarget. And anyone who goes to one of those, don't go to the other. People migrate towards like people.
Plus, i don't want to stand out as if I was a Polish guy living in Egypt would. Now if I was on the south side of Chicago, I probably would be.
Also, unlike up North, I'm not scared for my safety at any of these terminals(with exception of the Greyhound Orlando Terminal).
Hmp. Okay, if that's your feelings that's your feelings. Me, well, I try not to get psychotic about it...but I gotta admit: I have no qualms at all when I'm on a bus or train, or in a social setting, and am the "only" one of my, uh, background. I don't know if this makes sense but in a little way, I feel proud to be there.
A little part of that is that I am "representing my people" and am aware there are some eyes on me. So it behooves me to not "act the fool" and give some ignorant folk fuel for their own prejudices. You know, comments like "...did you see what that XXXXXXX did??"
Also, it's real good to show people you're right in the same world as they are, and the unspoken question to those who might not like it is, what's the problem? It's sort of like, well, see, I ain't afraid to ride with you folks. Why should I be?
By and large though, most folks just want to go about their business. So there's mostly, never any reason to avoid such situations where you might be the "only one of your kind". I say, embrace it, walk proud and be seen. You got the same challenge and right to be there, wherever it is.
If anyones' experience has been otherwise, I'd say they were unfortunate victims of unfair prejudice directed towards them. Every barrel does have its rotten apples.
I don't have the problem actually being on the bus or a train, it's usually at one of those bus transfer centers. I think it stems from the days in high school where people have to hit up the "white" kid for an extra token or some crap. And of course that's typically a prelude to being mugged, even though that's never happened to me(ask for money/time i'm referring to).
Other than being in a bad neighborhood, I bet other people wouodn't want to be the only person person who stood out. It's a comfort level thing.
I hear what you're saying there. It can be very hard on white kids in areas where they are not in a numerical majority. You rarely if ever see mention of this in newspapers or other media though. The fact that lots of kids get picked on due to their being white. It's almost as if there is an unspoken agreement amongst those outlets to NEVER mention when white kids get accosted by "others" in school or in transit. It's as if they're saying, well, those white kids DESERVED to get picked on...for "social justice", "retribution", "righting of historical wrongs", "they look lame in comparison to the "other" youths", or some such nonsense.
Yet let the circumstances be reversed...wham!! Instant horrified news media attention on the "racist" white kids! Where's the f**kin' justice for those white kids who are getting beat up for stupid ignorant race-hating reasons?? Where's the media outrage? Don't those c suckers know how frightening it can be for these kids, how much damage they can do to a kids mental state of being? It's one of the prime reasons why I dislike Newsday so much. How can I put this...it's like, according to them, "everyone is an angel...everyone, that is, EXCEPT...
I often wish some of those ofey Newsday writers would move to places like Wyandanch, or Coram, in Suffolk County. Let their kids go to the local schools...and then let's see how quickly the story angles change. When it's their own children coming home crying "...they punched me in the face and ganged up on me and cursed me out `cause I'm white, ma!!!"
Of course, this would never happen. Those peckerwoods'd rather stay where they are, in places like Smithtown, Merrick, Seaford, Plainview, Garden City, etc. Stay, and proclaim their righteousness from their proverbial mountaintops over the more "common" members of their socio-economic group. Bunch a pissant posers, the lot of `em.
Anyone who denies these facts has never been a white kid going to a school with a mainly black or hispanic student body. It's true that many kids DO get along. I'm not saying it's always gonna be a bad experience. But it does happen often enough to be something worth looking into. And thankfully, school doesn't last forever.
One way to get over the pain of these racially biased attitudes when you finally get out of school is to walk around looking confident and at home, wherever you are. Give the mother-blankers some reason to doubt that, this time, their anti-white fueled hateful attitudes are gonna yet again result in the white boy lookin' scared and acting afraid, and getting punked. Make the ignorant bastards think you just waiting for some s**t, just waiting for their move...and smile while you're waiting. I know, I know, very dramatic and even foolish. Probably not advisable for most. Still, you gotta program your mind somehow.
Now, all of this is really a drag to have to think about. And if you never had those experiences you can have the luxury of having better ways to deal with ignorance without a lot of other baggage to carry. So I say, eventually, it'll be time to move on. Can't hang onto old, bad memories that can effect your daily live in a delaterious manner. Gotta let it go. When you do you'll feel a lot lighter on your feet.
P.S. I'm aware that kids of all colors and backgrounds can have problems like this. Black kids get jumped by hispanic kids, hispanic kids get jumped by black kids, and the Asian kids get their own version of the fun too. And kids just naturally pick fights with other kids. But we're talking about white kids getting picked on for racial reasons specifically here, so that's what the post is about. Personally, I think every human deserves a shot at demonstrating their humanity. I don't pre-assume...but I also don't blind myself to empirical observations.
Why, have you ever been assaulted by a non-white person?)
In fairness to Jeff, I and most people from our era have been mugged by a non-white person, and only by a non-white person, and know many people with the same experience. And even if you were picked on by a white bully as a teen, you are less likely the become leary of white people as a result, being white yourself.
It's a different era now, and if things stay this way, those coming of age now may never have those same attitudes. I think the change may have already affected transit ridership.
"P.S. I'm aware that kids of all colors and backgrounds can have problems like this. Black kids get jumped by hispanic kids, hispanic kids get jumped by black kids, and the Asian kids get their own version of the fun too. And kids just naturally pick fights with other kids. But we're talking about white kids getting picked on for racial reasons specifically here, so that's what the post is about. Personally, I think every human deserves a shot at demonstrating their humanity. I don't pre-assume...but I also don't blind myself to empirical observations."
So the only racist is everyone else but white children? hmmm but funny... it's just not realistic and feel I should not give anything you say much time.
"So, if you think that the only person being "picked on" are white people, you are misinforming people."
Here's what I said related to that bon mot:
"But we're talking about white kids getting picked on for racial reasons specifically here, so that's what the post is about."
Comprende? I noted the reality of other incidents. That specific post was concerning a specific demographic group. Where do you see me stating "the only person being "picked on" are white...". To examine specific facets of acquired data does not diminish the validity or discount the reality of OTHER specific facets of the acquired data.
There can only be two reasons for you to object to that methodology. Either you just have problems discerning facts from the backgound noise you're receiving, or you allow your cognitive abilities to wither when they encompass certain "code" words, according to your judgement. It's a dramatic way of doing things; it allows you to appear to be both concerned and on the "right side", but still, it's a poor showing of your reading comprehension.
Now, this other bit you typed:
"It's called psychological racism which gets people to believe that your lie is true just to keep people from knowing who the real victim is."
That's the way it is with you, eh? Interesting. What lie? Where did I lie in my original post? I was basically relating to the unfortunate experiences of a certain group of children in certain situations. Tell me, if it was you you had children in school, and they came home beaten up and stated to you that the beating was done by black kids, accompanied by hateful racist remarks...would you still be so glib as to excuse the beating your kids received by making similar remarks? Would you explain to them that, well, see kids, you have to allow yourselves to get beat up. You have to take it kids, you have to take getting punched in the face and knocked to the ground and get kicked by those boys, since, goodness gracious, "we all know who the REAL victims are"??
If so, then I'm gonna go along with what Zappa said on FREAK OUT about parents.
Black Children aren't racist, but white children are.. Just get oveer! IT!!!
My son can tell you! AS WELL AS MY DAUGHTERS!!!
Misinformation is BAD! and should be avoided as much as possible. If you going to talk about race, then back it up with some documentation.. Do not accuse the victim of racism unless you have your FACTS straight. (There was and still Slavery in this country.. just look around .. if you want to see it... Most of the people working in these low income positions are "people of color") (AND STOP CALLING THESE PEOPLE MINORITIES! BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT LESS THEN YOU AND I!!!) (Look at the Prison system! It did not get like that way because black people are bad.. It's the people who make the rules that are bad.. And I can only pray that I'm spared when GOD comes down to straighten things out!!)
I have heard enough of this topic and will not respond to anyone! I'm just sick of the white man complaining about racism when "WE" are the one's causing it!
Stop discriminating and offer equal opportunity to everyone base on their skills, not their color.. Stop miseducating the black children and stop breaking up black families.. by sending these children in the foster care system.
Stop building concentration camps - Public Housing PROJECTS and allow these people to make a living for themselves.. And I ensure you that the little stuff that you say goes on, will stop.
They are still neighborhoods that blacks can't walk in.. Why? Because they fear for their lives. Tell me if that is any better then what you just mentioned?
I do not care what you have to say... so don't waste your time posting to me. You and the rest of the people on this board have already proven that YOU are RACIST.. and I do not want to have any parts of it!! I MEAN IT!!!
You can not back out of this one.. I read the post earlier.. and IT MAKES ME SICK TO KNOW THAT THE AVERAGE WHITE PERSON STILL THINKS THIS WAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What an incrediibly racist remark!
He was the person I referred to as a scatotheist (should be coprotheist), when he supported E_DOG. He was the only one BTW.
You ain't kiddin'...
"But I'm married to a black woman (which means I have black children, and more qualified then all of you in speaking about this subject of race and racism."
What, you think you're the, uh, "Great White Hope"? Just what black folk need: another "qualified" white man. Your logic is silly. The statement is, surprise, as racist a statement as any I've ever heard. Makes no sense. Marrying someone does not make you what that person is. And the way you mentioned it, you seem to think "married to a black woman" is like your protective armor, like you're putting on a jacket of "oh, but I'm not like THE OTHERS." We didn't need to know who you're married to. It was rude of you, I think, to bring it up like that. It was disrespectful.
"...and more qualified then all of you in speaking about this subject of race and racism."
You don't know sheet from Shinola about this subject. Anybody who truly does know something about it wouldn't say such a thing. Because it indicates a lack of knowledge in the speaker. Hence, any truly "qualified" person would shy away from such bombastidy.
"Stop building concentration camps - Public Housing PROJECTS and allow these people to make a living for themselves.. And I ensure you that the little stuff that you say goes on, will stop."
Most housing projects were originally majority "white" population when they opened. I know and have known many people living in "projects". As in anywhere and anything else, you do the best you can. Make it decent or make it hell...ain't any laws gonna stop that phenomena.
"They are still neighborhoods that blacks can't walk in.. Why? Because they fear for their lives. Tell me if that is any better then what you just mentioned?"
Two wrongs don't make a right. I'll say it again, in a different manner. It's just as evil, sick, racist and psychotic for a group of black children to gang up on and violently attack a group of white children as it is evil, sick, racist and psychotic for a group of white children to gang up on and violently attack a group of black children. How could it be any different? There is no excuse.
"You and the rest of the people on this board have already proven that YOU are RACIST.. and I do not want to have any parts of it!! I MEAN IT!!!"
Wowee. What a prejudiced general statement to make. Hmmm, now, what did Lionel Jefferson say to Archie Bunker that time? "You can't judge the many by the actions of the few.". Hell, my pappy done taught me that afor I could read...and I could read by age 3. I sure am proud of my pappy.
"IT MAKES ME SICK TO KNOW THAT THE AVERAGE WHITE PERSON STILL THINKS THIS WAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
Sheesh. Calm the frig down. And listen: You don't know me. Shut up. Don't need you to be testifyin' for me. Stop talkin' bout people as if you know all of `em and have figured them all out. It's a rediculous notion from, apparently, a rediculous man who seems to be a mighty corn-fused man, I reckon.
And not's not including the race riots that the black kids liked to do at the end of every school year, even when they're getting a free ride.
Plus, if you read the whole post, you'd see the part about people liking to be around like people. Color and class. I didn't see any of the 5-6 groups in high school mixing, nor in college when it shifted to economic status really.
And we all have our preferences. If you don't, your lying.
Plus, around here, we got police cars taht say INS, Border Patrol and Agriculture Police. Often times the 5 of the 5 most wanted are Mexican Gangbangers. I didn't see you assume that's what i meant.
So go home with you're self-rightous liberal assumptions and social engineering experiments that grant preferential treatment and reverse discrimination.
Now i'm going to go back to discussing the differences between business class transportation and coach to help our cities transportation infrastructure, because NYC is the only place I'm familiar with that I see high paid suits on a subway.
However, I would agree that its not the only one. Hispanic (again, however you would define this), South-American Portuguese, Pacific Rim of all sorts, you name it, we have it around here.
So what? I remember being in Tiananmen Square once, on May 1, years past. I was definitely a minority!
And, yea, I feel the same way about those EEO things when they say Latino and Asian too. Too much lumping together.
Asian: Are we talking about Indian or Thai? See?
Take a look at any type of census info pre-40's, like public housing and you won't see that.
But that's way off topic of public trans. now.
First of all I am not talking about the real MTA, I am referring to the MTA here in Baltimore
They are both “real MTAs”. How much effort is it to say New York MTA?
I have recently needed to ride the #8 bus up towards and away from Towson a few times and I have litterally been able to count the number of non-block riders that have ridden with in, in total, on one hand
What do you mean “non-block,” they do not live on a city block…? BTW, the bus will be transporting people to where they live. Depending on what kind of people live along the line and at the terminus, that is the kind of people you will see on a bus.
What causes this effect? Do white folks really not want to ride with minorities?
Ride the buses and subway trains on the system you have christened the “real MTA” and you will see who rides with whom. It has to do with what neighborhood the route serves, nothing more. And ask yourself whom the high rollers in those neighborhoods are “riding with” because they are not on the bus either.
I would say that most white people today aren't anti-black, they are anti the sort of poor urban person who just usually happens to be black. Any sort of miniroty professional educated type can move into whatever neighborhood they want and be treated no differently (yes there are exceptions). However, if any sort of sketchy poor urban minority type tries to even enter even lower class white areas, the police will usually hound them and arrest them for like "panhandling".
The new racism relies on socio-economic class rather than on skin-colour as the vehicle to screw people. Once you concentrate a particiular class in a particular area, it becomes much easier to then marginalize them and keep them marginalized for indefinite periods of time. Not only can their problems be more easily ignored, it also makes it trivial to stigmatize the group and make them undesirable. This is the strategy Hitler used to convert well integrated and respected Jewish populations into something the surrounding community wouldn't mind getting rid of perimently.
When I arrived in New York in 1983, I started in Astoria, where Italians+Greeks comprised over 75% of the community. I knew several people who spoke almost no English, but they got along well.
I am sure the same has applied to other ethnic communities. After all, why do we have Chinatowns just about everywhere?
I suspect that what happened in the 40 years that have passed was that those who could take other transportation (usually read auto) did. I've read that people will generally not ride buses if they have an acceptable alternative.
Running times example: with streetcars, the end-to-end (Towson-Catonsville) was about 75 minutes non-rush. Rush hours was about 120 minutes (in 1963).
With buses the non-rush time was 93 minutes and the rush time was 156 minutes (January 1964).
It's now 40 years later, and the 8 had been split in half (the Catonsville end was now the 2) due to (drum roll) traffic congestion and both ends had addtional routings added. For example, the 8 got extended from Towson to the Lutherville Light Rail stop when the "Toonerville Trolley" opened in 1992. Later, the 8 absorbed the 9 (Hunt Valley line) when the LR was extended to Hunt Valley. Since the bus can't exactly follow the car tracks, it wiggles all over the place to get to the same place the LRV's going.
Example of why I won't ride the bus (except rush hour expresses if downtown): To get from my house to BSM on the weekends would take over 2 hours by bus (19 runs hourly on Sundays, every 45 minutes on Saturday) It takes almost 50 minutes to North Avenue, where a tramsfer to the 13-North Avenue line (35 minutes on Saturday, 40 minutes on Sunday) plus waiting time. By automobile, 22 minutes. So, even as pro transit as I am, the bus is unworkable.
So, what you get now on the 8, or any other line, is the people who have no other way to get where they are going.
One of the BSM folks refers to the MTA as the TWTA (Third World Transit Adminstration).
I have commented that bus service is worse today than it was in the last years of the NCL controlled Baltimore Transit Company.
I only wish I didn't feel like I had to jusify why I was taking "The Charriot of the Masses" every time I got on.
1) People who have to because they are poor and have no choice, and 2) people who find transit to be more convenient then a car.
In many places, especially suburban areas and smaller cities, car travel is much easier then in larger cities. If the car travel is easy, you get very few of the type 2) riders and its mostly type 1) riders. In densely packed cities, where you have things such as bus lanes and rail rapid transit, you get some of both.....as the 1) riders still have no choice, and the 2) riders see that they can save time, save money, etc.
In NYC, people ride trasit since driving anywhere is insane. In Washington DC, people ride the Metro for the same reason. People ride feeder busses to Metro stations since parking is all paid parking and often there are no spots after 8AM, so they find it more convenient to ride the bus. Try riding those same busses in the middle of the afternoon when the roads are clear, and you'll see many more 1) riders then 2).
In Charlottesville, VA where I live, we have two bus systems...CTS and UTS. UTS is the University transit service, and has a captive audience of UVA students and staff. We have to park really far away from where we attend class, so we have to ride the bus whether we like it or not. UTS also provides service to off campus areas where students live. So the racial/economic class makeup is similar to the makeup of the university.... CTS is the city bus service. Since people drive everywhere, despite the extreme congestion (the busses get stuck in it too...), we have many more 1) riders. The only reason CTS exists is essentially to provide mobility to Charlottesville's less fortunate residents...of which there are quite a few (I believe somewhere around 30% of the city's residents are below the poverty line, compared to 15% in surrounding Albemarle County). It does very little to ease congestion...if congestion eased, the busses would be faster, but it would be easier to drive!
Personally I think its a shame that the economic classes tend to be associated with races of people. This is not always the case. I personally come from an upper middle class family, and always hung out with upper middle class people as a kid, through HS< etc. And I see how people tend to want to hang out with people who are of a similar background, etc, which includes economic class. I do hang out with people from very different backgrounds then myself, but i'll be first to admit that I feel more comfortable and secure with people who are more like me. Part of it is just not knowing what their thoughts are, not knowing if something I say or do will offend them, so I find myself being overly cautios in what I do and say to the point that its awkward. And I too don't like to "stand out" in the crowd. I was in a McDonald's in a predominantly African American neighborhood and was continuously taunted for being a "white boy"...and that made me very uncomfortable.
So essentially, my point is this: for whatever reason, people view the bus as a "lower class" form of transportation then rail or car, and therefore will shy away from busses...even if the busses aren't REALLY a lower class of transportation, if people percieve that it is, then thats enough to keep them away. And honestly, in areas where there is little congestion, busses ARE a lower class form of transportation, not based on who's riding them but the physical characteristics of the ride itself! A car's downside is that it has to share the road with other cars and is vulnerabl;e to congestion. Rail's downside is that it makes a lot of stops between one's origin and destination. Busses combine the worst of both.
How to get more people to ride busses? Obviously you have to go for the choice riders. And to do this, you have to make transit more cost-effective then a car, both in terms of monitary costs, time costs, and convenience costs. You don't do that, you don't get the customers, bottom line. And in addition to that, you have to give those choice riders the impression that the bus is a comfortable, friendly environment, and one thing riders look for when considering if a transportation mode, place of employment, shopping destination, hotel, or anything for that matter is comfortable, clean, etc., are the types of people that ride it. If there are people, regardless of their race or economic status, who are not clean, who exhibit anti-social behavior, such as cursing, spitting, putting their feet on the seats looking disheveled, etc. I don't mind sharing a bus with rich people, poor people, black people, white people, or orange people, so long as they know how to behave themselves in public. The problem is people tend to associate these sorts of anti-social, not good for quality-of-life behaviors that make people uncomfortable with poor people and minorities, and that steriotype has to be changed in peoples' minds. People who act weird, which includes taunting me about being white....I don't want to ride a bus, train, etc with them. And I don't care what color their skin is, or how much money they have in their wallet. That, is the reason why I will never ride a Greyhound bus again if I can help it.
By the way, I am a brother in a service fraternity and have spent at least 50 hours this past semester giving my time to help serve those in need, so while I might feel most comfortable with people that come from my own economic class, i'm certainly willing to associate with and help those who are less fortunate then me....and usually those people are very grateful in return. Most of the poorer people I have come across are very nice people, and its a shame that a few rotten apples give poor people a bad rep. I also support the continuation of transit services for those type 1) people who need to get around and have no other option....that transit bus that most people don't want to ride might be the only way that poor guy can get to work to pay for dinner.
Two last observations:
1) Baltimore has significantly less traffic congestion then Washington, DC...especially ever sicne the Fort McHenry Tunnel opened. Ive never encountered a delay in Baltimore on I-95 outside of rush hours or holiday weekends.
2) Transit stations, being sheltered, warm, and open to the public tend to attract homeless people, which is why transit tends to be associated with people like that.
I think your arguments, coupled with a density design that means that frequent mass transit is viable, might give us a solution that may yet save the planet.
On the other hand, this is a witty, yet depressing account of how the US is seemingly doing whatever it can to thwart realistic environmental initiatives.
Earlier this year, just before he was fired as environment minister, Michael Meacher gave a speech in Newcastle, saying: There is a lot wrong with our world. But it is not as bad as people think. It is actually worse. He listed five threats to the survival of the planet: lack of fresh water, destruction of forest and crop land, global warming, overuse of natural resources and the continuing rise in the population. What Meacher could not say, or he would have been booted out more quickly, was that the US is a world leader in hastening each of these five crises, bringing its gargantuan appetite to the business of ravaging the planet.
Under Bush, the lack of interest [about the environment] at every level has at last come into balance. The US is equally unconcerned globally, federally, statewide and locally.
The rules for building houses in the computer game Sim City are stricter than those that apply in most areas of the Sun Belt.
Read the article: its simultaneously entertaining and thought-provoking.
My observation is that the typical American (who lives in a suburb, where 50 percent of all Americans live, not even counting the large areas of newer Sunbelt cities that are de facto suburbs) will ride with minorities. Or they will ride with the poor. But they will not ride with poor minorities.
The Baltimore busses run about every 20-25 minutes, so the bus service is basically really bad (it wasn't like that 15 years ago). The Metro train in RUSH HOUR only runs every 8 minutes. Compare that with the (similar in length) Market St. Subway in Phildelphia running a train every 2 minutes in rush hour and 12-minute bus service nearly everywhere.
On weekends the subway in Baltimore runs every 15 minutes on a line that takes 25 minutes from end to end. Who would park on a Sunday, walk through a maze to the train platform, wait 15 minutes, get 4 blocks from where you want to go, when the alternative is to drive for 15 minutes total and park in front of the building you want for free?
In Baltimore, the only people who ride the busses are those who don't have cars or really hate driving in rush hour. I don't think it has hardly anything to do with race. But the combination of 1) no car, and 2) living close enough in town that a bus ride is worth it implies that one group of people uses it at a higher percentage than another, well that's the way it goes.
Wow, that stinks, especially for a city in the Northeast.
The NCL management took the position that, in the words of an NCL executive "If they won't ride buses they will probably buy a Chevy, so we don't lose either way." Remember, GM was one of the principals in the formation of NCL.
Ridership dropped every time a streetcar line to bus operation. Most lines dropped anywhere from 50 to 70 per cent of ridership within 6 months of conversion.
The top lines for ridership in 1963 were the 8 line (17% of the company's total ridership) and the 15 line (14% of the ridership). The top bus line in 1963 was the 19 line with 12% of the total ridership.
Today, the 19 line has a 1 hour headway on Sundays above Northern Parkway, 30 minute below.
A sad tale, but an interesting history. I wonder if an economics student has ever gotten a PHD doing an analysis to separate the effect of motor bus vs. light rail from the general growth of auto ownership at the same time, back in the day. It would require lots of data from lots of places, but it would be interesting to be able to day that transit companies threw away 40 percent of their market in order to increase their operating costs.
I DO know, in the off-hours on a suburban bus last week, just behind me, a presumably poor black guy was comiserating with a presumably poor white guy about just having "been in" for six....was his second time in the big house....I hear ya, man...this discussion of cops, courts, more shocking (to me at least) was worse than Jerry Springer.
Now, being an average white suburbanite, do I really want to hear that discussion?
I live a one minute walk from a bus, and I'd never ride it to get a carton of milk, I ride it every day, but it's silly and monetarily wasteful to use it for milk.
Take the Metro subway. One every 15 minutes or so on weekdays. No service on Sundays, buses that come every 20 minutes, LRVs that run every twenty minutes. Penn Station that is near nothing.
Thats why people would rather drive.
It's being renovated, and in any event its condition (and location) are scarcely relevant to people making the quick, no-brainer LIRR-subway connection.
A CSX freight train, direction unknown, lost 6 cars (currently on their sides, possibly hazardous materials carriers) just south of the AF Interlocking in Alexandria. VRE has already canceled service for the remainder of the day. So far, no word on DASH delays, but the incident occurred right in front of the garage.
Mark
Delays on the Blue Line in both directions due to CSX derailment containing hazardous materials.
I was unable to see if there was more to the message than that since I was on an escalator going up and wasn't going to wait around to see what the sign said.
Robert
(I am assuming both trips aren't already sold out)
(THANKS for that tape, Unca Heypaul!)
To resurrect the Train to the Plane is really useless. In later years of the original operation not too many people used it. Instead of the Airtrain what should have been done is to create a spur off the A line to the airport to create a "one seat" ride. But since the PA hold the lease on the airports it was a no brainer that something like that would never happen. That is also probably why NJ Transit doesn't have a spur to Newark Airport.
The PA is well known for it's greediness (the MTA should be as greedy). That is why there is the $5 fare on the AirTrain. That is why the chance of free transfers between the subway and PATH is almost nil (remember how long it took to even get PATH to accept Metrocards).
For the PA the main forcus is to make money in NY - for NJ. Maybe one day the Governor of NY will realize that and work to disolve this unbalanced organization.
Also, the MTA receives tax subsidies, the PA is required to be solvent.
If they are it is at the cost of services in NY facilities.
As for robbing New York to pay New Jersey, why should I be against it? I'm a New Jersey taxpayer who has a relative or two working for New Jersey state institutions, so why should I bite a hand that feeds me?
Why do you say this? What prevents (physically, not politically) the AirTrain from being connected to the LIRR at Jamaica? The track gauge is the same.
Now LL 42nd st is only a memory for the classic Aqueduct specials, and a scene in each of the films Sweet Charity (1969) and Ghost (1990).
Is that really true, or is that another "76th Street" like rumor?
Oh boy.
Of course I know it existed, I meant is it really true that it is in the way of the 7 line extension. There are many "76th St"-like rumors, I thought that may be one of them.
That has absolutely nothing to do with it, fact is that NY Penn is at full capacity.
Running trains from the airport to NY Penn with 200 airport travelers from out of town makes no sense when you can use that available slot for a commuter train carrying 1,200 passengers who all live and work in the area.
When the new Hudson tunnels from New Jersey are built, the East Side Access project finished or a new East River tunnel from Lower Manhattan connecting with the Atlantic Ave line is built there is no room for low capacity airport trains that cater to out of town visitors.
Also the JFK Airtrain is indeed compatible with the LIRR, it was designed that way. However they need a new hybrid car that can bridge the two systems, but it was built with that in mind.
The Port Authority bashing is pretty much stupid, considering no one bashing the PA has any facts to base any gripes on.
The Port Authority would not have even taken over the PATH had it not been for NY's insistence that the Port Authority diverge from their core business (Transportation) and go into the Real Estate business in Lower Manhattan, even with that said I think NJ and NY has made out well with the Port Authority.
Thank you! I've seen so much PA-bashing and comments about "the PA doesn't want any railroads" that I'd given up on posting the facts.
The bankruptcy plan for the H&M was to sever the real estate holdings from the railroad and use the profits from the real estate sale to make partial payments on the railroad's debt. The real estate holdings would continue under new management and the railroad would be abandoned.
The PA realized what effect this would have on their Hudson crossings and decided they needed to keep the H&M lines operating. They managed to get the real estate included in the deal.
Despite the bankruptcy proceeding, the H&M was in the middle of renovating the Hudson Terminal office buildings to modern (as of the late 50's) standards. And of course they'd just placed the K cars (with air conditioning) into service.
Somewhat later, the WTC project was looking for a location. Given that the PA happened to be holding what was the largest office building in the city, some might say the result was inevitable...
Oh really. In my 30 years on the job at the bak I work for I have had a number of occasions dealt with the PA regarding financial situations that involve my company.
For obvious reasons (confidentiality policies) I cannot go into very much detail but I can assure you that when I call them greedy I do it from experience.
For a few hours of the day.
And it probably wouldn't be at capacity if the LIRR charged slightly more for tickets to Penn than to the Queens and Brooklyn terminals.
Too late for that. The connection to the lower level platform was severed a few weeks ago.
Is it possible to build a hybrid that is both FRA and FTA compatible? If so, then the problem of running both systems on the airport loop is solved.
Where do you think the LIRR segment should run to? I think Hempstead Transit Center(the old JFK flyer left from there, but was shut down due to crappy routing which made it into a crappy service), and maybe huntington also. It would probably run best as an express service to compete with driving times. Stops for each route would be:
Huntington-Syosset-Hicksville-Westbury or Carle Place-Mineola-New Hyde Park-Floral Park-Jamaica-all airtrain stops on jamaica leg to terminals
Hempstead-Stewart Manor-Floral Park-Queens Village-Jamaica-all airtrain stops on jamaica leg to terminals.
The A and those 2 LIRR lines wud use those special cars. They'd have to be small, but wide enough to work. Are the A subway and LIRR cars the same width? If not, a bridge plat can be installed that would come out automatically at every LIRR station to bridge the gap.
A revived subway "Train to the Plane", competing with Airtrain will never happen.
With a couple of billion dollar$ already invested in Airtrain, it would be fool hardy to restart a Train to the Plane that was already a money loser when it was discontinued.
In the beginning, we all ranted about the PA not using the Rockaway Beach line for an airport connection. Now, Airtrain has been built and is reality, so we can no longer rant. I was one of those ranters, but now I have accepted Airtrain's existance.
True, Airtrain has some first day teething problems, but what systm doesn't ? Didn't Airtrain Newark and HBLR have some problems too ? Airtrain JFK will work out the bugs and will become part of the fabric.
Bill "Newkirk"
It is possible to create a JFK Express service that would use 6th Avenue and then transition to Fulton Street, using special cars, but it would stop at all A train express stops.
Also, there is the issue of whether the planned IRT 7 extension to Javits will have to tunnel right through the lower level of the 8th Av IND station. I don't know the answer to that question.
It will answer the question once and for all if the LL ay 42/8 is on the same level as the 7 Line.
Armed with Photoshop, taggers are making a comeback on the NYC subway system!
BTW - are you the perp on these particular photos? If so, consider yourself under cyber-citizens arrest for vandalism.
Now you guys know I would never do this to a train, especially an R42! I'm pretty outraged I just did it in cyberspace.
Well I guess a Merry Christmas or a Happy Chanukah are in order for those that celebrate those holidays this week or next.
: )
Mark
THAT GUY'S A PHONY!
A BIG FAT PHONY!
It was strange seeing that, as the downtown platform pillar signs still say to take a Far Rockaway or Rock Park A train to Howard Beach.
E train - time (minutes) taken from Sutphin Blvd:
7th Av 27
34th St 35
W4th St 41
WTC 46
A train - time (minutes) taken from Howard Beach:
Bway-N 40
W4th St 46
42nd St 53
59th St 56
This puts the break-even point somewhere between W4th St and WTC. Given that the E train is somewhere around 3 times as frequent as the Rockaway A train, at any station where I had a choice, I'd ride the E train.
The A express is 36 minutes to Chambers, 40 minutes to West 4th, 51 minutes to 59th.
AFAIR, they used rivets rather than screws
Signage from the station to the AirTrain terminal isn't too great, though - it'll probably make more sense once all of the entrances to the Jamaica platforms reopen.
There have been many, many mismated R-32s in service since returning from GOH in 1988-1990. The reason they were mis-mated was because one car in a pair was sometimes done ahead of another and the complete cars were sent back to NYC whether in sequence or not.
No new mismates have been created since, but what WAS 3659 is now 3348.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Robert
Use this link for the larger version of the photo which I can't remote post with imagestation:
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid93/p29dc335cafa6ec007671bf86c85a0673/fa444777.jpg.orig.jpg
I meant the large pretty building to the LEFT.
There are plenty of photos on this site from when there were just doors and gaping holes where windows should have been!
Yes, that man would be standing in the middle of the interlocking today. I wonder if he was headed to Canarsie or Cypress Hills. I MUST have this book.
That pic also shows an interesting phenomenon, something which changed after the rebuilding. Wheras most Myrtle Ave. el passangers would have switched to the Broadway el to get into Manhattan later, at that time it was the Broadway el riders which would have flocked up to the Myrtle Ave line to access lower Manhattan, given that the Broadway el ended at the East River.
No, they'd have ridden the Lexington Av El.
Thanks,
Mark
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=624000
and
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=624134
Thanks,
Mark
I'm personally disapointed that only 4 trains a day will be serving this station...and that will greatly reduce the number of customers potentially using this station. SOmeone would have to know in advance that they would leave on a train from this station and will be returning on a train heading towards Newport News. If only one of their trains isn't a Newport news train, then it makes much more sense for them to use the Staples Mill Road station. But it sounds like they will be adding more trains in the future. Perhaps at least they could have shuttle busses to downtown for those arriving at Staples Mill Road who need to get downtown.
The article makes a good point about prices though...Amtrak is a bit on the expensive side, which makes it more of a novelty, once in a while, tourist transportation mode rather then a useful mode for regular commuters. When compared with Metro-North's prices, Amtrak from NYP to Poughkeepsie is at least twice as expensive as Metro-North to Grand Central, for service thats only marginally faster (and forget about Amtrak between say, Yonkers and Croton Harmon....those prices are insanely expensive, i suppose to actively discourage local use). Maybe it makes sense to have expensive prices for Amtrak trains that operate along the same routes as commuter trains, but when Amtrak is the only game in town, their prices should be lower to facilitate more local usage. Hey, they might end up making more money in the long run if they attract commuters, but another thing they'd have to work on is their on-time performance...
Also, the way things get built around here for a small town is appalling. It takes several months just to repair a 100 ft section of road, and when there was an overpass being constructed over I-64 to Busch Gardens, it took a couple of years to be finished in a rural area. There is NO WAY that light rail or any other form of rail can be built here, the methods of installing infrastructure are performed by unskilled workers.
Oh, but they will sell you a ticket! Go to Amtrak.com and type in station codes POU and YNY, and it comes up as a $27 ride, a mere $4 cheaper then POU to NYP. I bet they probably are legally not allowed to carry Metro-North's passangers, but if you stepped onto an Amtrak train with an overpriced ticket, they will take your ticket and keep their mouths shut since they need the money.
http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/13806.htm
The Newark Air-o-rail is doing pretty well from the times I've taken it, but it has some problems from my perspective -- all of which are addressed by the JFK-Jamaica connection. My four biggest problems with Newark/NJT connection:
1. NJT train frequency -- I often arrive back in the NY area at 10 or 11 at night after a one or two day trip. NJT frequency headed towards NYC at that time is 2-3 trains per hour, unevenly spaced. If you just miss one you can end up waiting 45+ minutes for a train into NY. Even at midday, there are only 2-3 TPH, although they are better spaced. LIRR has 5-6 TPH from Jamaica to Penn until about 1 or 2 AM.
2. AirTrain speed. How many times can I stare into that hotel or into the Anheuser-Busch truck depot wondering why my AirTrain isn't moving and whether I'm missing my connection because of it. At least the JFK train zips along the Van Wyck at close to 60, which gives me the impression that it's trying to help me get home, rather than just torturing me with a tour of the backyards of Newark.
3. Connecting Station -- Which genius decided to put NJT's station alongside a garbage dump or recycling transfer station or whatever it is that has the entire platform soaked in the foul stench of rotting food? At Jamaica, I can at least watch trains in peace while I wait.
4. Options - Newark is a captive station. If you miss your train, your must wait for the next one. No bus, no taxi, you can't even walk!! Your only choice is whether to stand outside smelling the roses (er... trash) or to stay in the waiting room (which on my last trip meant listening to the broken recording announce "Train arriving on Track 1, please stand back" every 10 seconds). At Jamaica, if the LIRR lets you down, you've got the subway, busses, taxis, places to eat. Heck, there's even a topless joint around the corner.
Well, Newark does have the PATH as an alternative to NY. And it's a short walk to the (safe) Ironbound section for Portuguese and Spanish food on Ferry St. You can railfan the City Subway. And I can't believe there isn't a topless joint around there somewhere!
I would bet money that SJ will have a park and ride within five years.
(And its a short taxi ride to the strip joints in North Bergen for those in desperate need).
However, there is no way out of Newark Airport Rail station until the next train comes.
Newark (EWR) is a captive station. If you miss your train, your must wait for the next one. No bus, no taxi, you can't even walk
Well, if you’re feeling brave, you can walk to the end of the platform, across Track 5, and to the nearby streets. The number 24 bus (to Newark and Elizabeth) runs on Frelinghuysen Avenue, and the 37 (EWR-Irvington) and 107 (Irvington-PABT) run on Meeker and Haynes Avenues. These bus services would be more readily available if the EWR station was not a captive station…
Well, if youre feeling brave, you can walk to the end of the platform, across Track 5, and to the nearby streets.
Wouldn't that be illegal?
There used to be a recycling center along the Babylon Branch LIRR tracks just before they merge with the Main Line near the Hillside Facility. As a kid I thought it was really cool to see all the huge piles of different colored glass.
CG
Although the LIRR has more frequencies from Jamaica at certain hours, it's still a quicker trip from NY Penn to Newark Airport than the LIRR to JFK.
The shortest trip from yesterday on the LIRR to JFK I heard of yesterday was 60 minutes, I've done NY Penn- Terminal C at many times EWR in about 30 minutes.
The Newark Airport rail link station has the disadvantage as mentioned of not being foot accesible, however this is also an advantage depending how you look at it.
The Newark Aiport rail link station handles airport travelers only, meaning everybody getting on or off there are pretty much in the same "boat". Luggage etc.
Not mixing commuters and airport travelers during the boarding is a plus for both, also at 1:30Am it's a little more safe at the Newark Airlink station than Jamaica. Not so much crime, but the general wierdness that seems to plague the LIRR, especially at night.
Then there's Amtrak..
I've also ridden Amtrak from NY Penn to Newark Airport, it's still cheaper than a taxi and quite comfortable.
As for frequency of service hopefully NJ Transit will have some more express trains stop there, however the new Hudson tunnels are needed to really improve overall frequency.
In the shorter term by 2009 the PATH will most likely be extended to the Newark Airport rail link station, this adds more frequencies, a cheaper alternative (probably $7 with surcharge), and access to Lower Manhattan via the new World Trade Center PATH station being designed by Santiago Calvatrava.
Also the Newark Airtrain cost $400 Million for the rail link, the whole system including the rail link cost $600 Million. A fraction of the $2 Billion the JFK system costs. however the JFK system is a heavier, faster system that can at some point in the future accomodate trains directly from Manhattan.
So we will see, they both have their advantages and disadvantages.
I think one of the reasons for the different designs was that the Newark system was initially designed as an airport circulator: multiple stops at parking lots and the rental car facilities (compared with one on the JFK Airtrain), to which the main line connection was a retrofit.
I always wondered why they just didnt extend the airport train to Newark main station, replacing part of the current roof with platforms: same level transfer from PATH going towards the airport and escalators down to platforms 1 (NE Corridor) and 2 (PATH) for journeys to NYC.
CG
Now that's interesting ......
I'll bet there's not a real pair in the joint :(
The only point she makes is that she should have used her wits instead of her...oh never mind..
Stupid story about a brainless traveler.
I wonder who got filthy rich off this white elephant of a project.
Why doesn't the MTA provide a free shuttle bus for people who do not want to throw away $5 to save 3 or 4 minute getting to JFK from Howard Beach
Why don't you provide such a service?
But the point I was trying to make is that this is not a celebration for anybody. A ride that used to cost $2 now costs $7, an increase of 350% to save what...3 or 4 minutes. Sure doesn't seem like such a bargain to me.
A time and cost-conscious traveler should have switched to the Q10 on the day they started accepting subway-bus Metrocard transfers.
CG
And probably also at either Lefferts Blvd or Federal Circle, where you can jump on the AirTrain for free. You'll have the ability to reach your desired terminal faster than ever before.
CG
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.
Correct, though you'd have to pay for parking.
In other words, not every air traveler has scads and scads of money to spend.
And as others have pointed out, not every traveler to the airport is actually flying somewhere right then. Some are dropping people off or buying tickets or claiming lost luggage, and they now have to pay $10 for the privilege.
Passenger dropoffs can be done at Jamaica or Howard Beach to avoid the AirTrain fare. As noted before, you can no longer see someone off at the gate unless you're a ticketed passenger.*
I can't imagine that many people buy tickets at the airport anymore. Paper tickets are rapidly becoming a thing of the past anyhow; JetBlue, the (sort-of) biggest carrier at JFK,** doesn't use them at all. And horror stories aside, lost luggage is very uncommon, and airlines usually will deliver recovered bags to one's home or hotel if found.
* = a pre-9/11 policy at some JFK terminals, actually.
** = JetBlue has the most flights out of JFK, but American carries slightly more passenger thanks to some larger aircraft in its fleet.
CG
Funny, nobody told DOT about this.
Do you want the Q10 to stop only at Terminal 4?
False statement. The ride that now costs $7 for the non-monthly pass rider was never available to anyone before Dec 17. The $2 ride of which you speak does not compare in any way to the ride you get now. Trying to compare them is a joke.
There used to be a free shuttle bus. The shuttle bus was cancelled precisely when AirTrain opened. Even the Port Authority sees the Howard Beach leg of AirTrain as a direct replacement for the free shuttle bus.
In fact, of course, it saves more -- because the PA (deliberately, I believe) operated a poor shuttle bus service.
But if the shuttle buses ran every eight minutes, with only two stops between the subway and the first terminal, they wouldn't have been any slower than AirTrain.
And imagine the potential capital improvements. Cross-platform transfers to and from the A train. Dedicated bus lanes at the terminals. (Or perhaps we should start with the basic stuff: clearly marked bus stops, shared with the NYCT and Green buses at the terminals so that passengers could opt for whichever showed up first, with covered walkways from the terminals.) The result would have cost a fraction of what AirTrain cost and would have been a more convenient and perhaps more reliable ride.
It's only aq ripoff if you have a better and more workable idea. But you don't, and never have.
success= Something I wanted to see done
failure= something I did not care to see done
The idea of 5-10 target goals for the new service to meet like reliability, service level, fare cost, etc and then actually compare the finished project to it is potentially suicide to try.
Not an article, just a lame list of things.
It's also poorly researched. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to walk past a bunch of construction barricades and realize the full project isn't completed and maybe the transfer at Jamaica might be better in the future.
Also, I don't see why she would have to transfer at Terminal 1. She never mentioned which terminal she was going to.
CG
She had so much air in her head, she didn't need the airport. She could just pushed her own inflation button and floated to yher destination!
"Modifications to the Lexington Avenue subway station in Grand Central to accommodate additional passengers."
What modifications can be made? I guess the platforms can be lengthened and stairways added but that station is packed right now, especially during rush hours.
Maybe adding side platforms would help....
I don't think side platforms could be added - we don't know what is on the other side of those walls. For all we know a building's structural integrity could be compromised (or a basement of a building could be on the other side).
MONSTERS! There be Monsters in there!
My friend the Megamonster, owner of *all* secret tunnels says that Monsters live in there. You have to believe him, for he ought to know.
And I'd not want to tangle with monsters if you know what I mean.
: ) Elias
Arrived at Jamaica Center early at 12:30 PM, had lunch in the vicinity and went over to Jamaica station at 1:30 PM. No one else was allowed in so I went upstairs to take photos of a couple of M7's and other trains at the LIRR side. (I will post the photos tonight, got tons of night runs.) At LIRR Jamaica, WABC-TV news reporter N.J. Burkett was covering the story of the LIRR survey and was not doing the Airtrain coverage, someone else was doing it (see the www.7online.com website). Came back down at 1:50 to meet RoninBaysdie as well a catching up with Sir. Ronald, skfny, and Jailhouse Doc. 2 PM we went upstairs to fare control, the press sees the crowd jockeying for position. Anyone who was lucky to be there for the first train received a free $5 Metrocard, compliments of the Port Authority. 2:07 we hurried to the gate and waited on the right side. Car #106 was rear car; I didn't get the number for front car. The train pulls in at 2:10 PM on the opposite track and we quickly departed. Everyone was crowding the front car so the Subtalkers stayed at the anti-railfan window at the rear car. These cars are very nice, very generous railfan window. Nice seating with a table rack for small luggage in between most seats. The train ZIPS down in between the Van-Wyck Expressway alongside us (the structure is in between the realigned expressway and most spots you can see the mile-long backups, tee hee. 5 minutes and we were at Federal Circle "THE DOORS ARE CLOSING. PLEASE WAIT FOR ANNOUNCEMENT" was the fun in the announcement. Got off at Terminal 2/3 station and tried to take inner loop train (the outer loop is for the Jamaica and Howard Beach Trains, the inner loop runs circles around the JFK terminal perimeters only.) This was a test for me to see if I can catch the same train I got off at Terminals 2/3 at Terminals 8/9. I lost as I missed the roundabout train and took next train back to Jamaica. Then I had to head out for a few hours, knowing that I will return tonight for the Howard Beach leg.
But unlike the rides in the afternoon, it was a complete nightmare in the evening. I had an R38 A train to Howard Beach, got off and crossed-over to catch the Airtrain there. While I was there, David of Broadway was running back and forth on the Jamaica leg, so I arranged to meet up at Federal Circle. (Since we both had the same first name, the remainder of this post will be referred to as Broadway or Newkirk Plaza, respectively.) Broadway notes the absence of benches in the stations to sit down and wait for a train, and the long walk from the elevator to the glass entrances to the cars. We rode back to Jamaica without incident and took photos at the glass enclosed entrance. Along the ride back I was being careful not to push my body pressed against the window, there is a strip just behind every seat that activates a silent alarm. Broadway says goodbye at Jamaica and I went back to another ride to JFK. Before you can say BomBADier, we got stuck in heavy traffic north of Federal Circle. SEVEN trains were stuck in the vicinity between the junction and the station itself, one at the station; one outside station on the switch, my train was behind the second train, and two more behind on each line. After 15 minutes, the problem was cleared up. I looped around JFK outer twice before taking an Howard Beach train back.
Bad luck, the train is stuck outside Federal Circle for 20 minutes this time before we can proceed. It was out train having computer problems now, no other trains were ahead. Manual announcement stating the train was delayed is given a Bronx Cheer by the crowd (mostly airport employees) and more booing too. Finally at 10:10 PM I arrived at Howard Beach. An Airtrain redcoat employee asked me the rating for the train service, I replied "no comment" while a woman near me said "Airtrain SUCKS". Went out, large crowd for only four turnstiles entering the A train side of Howard Beach. A lucky 5 minutes later, I get the RF window of another R38 and tried to catch the 10:45 PM from Franklin that is the only train going through Malbone. THE TRAIN LEFT AT 10:42, WHAT IS GOING ON? No matter, I saw the train didn't go through Malbone as it was laid up on the interlocking on the N/B side, just south of Prospect Park.
What an adventure, photos later today!
I was impressed with the whole operation, especially since I really hadn't been paying much attention to the whole construction process. The run to and from Jamaica gets up some good speed. I had ridden under the Airtrain structure on the Van Wyck while it was being constructed. This morning I was initially anxious about being so high up in the air. I never really noticeed that the Van Wyck is actually below street level, so in effect we weren't that high.
There were several delays while going from terminal to terminal. The train sat in the station for almost 10 minutes on 3 separate occasions. One worrisome thing I observed was that after a prolonged wait in the station, the car doors closed without any warning beep.
I was wondering if the cars have any kind of energy regeneration features?
Overall, I was impressed and hope to go back at night and tape it at night. I was videotaping right out the front window without any trouble.
I would pick Worth Street. While its true that the staiway near the fountain by the Courthouse is about one block from Worth Street, its somewhat inconvenient to reach from Brooklyn Bridge station. From an uptown IRT train, you have to go down a flight of stairs and then up three more (including the stair to the street), not easy if you're carrying anything heavy.
There are enough businesses along Centre Street between Worth and Canal, not to mention three heavily used Courthouses (Criminal Court at 100 Centre, Civil/Housing Court at 111 Centre and Family Court on Lafayette Street) to justify the reopening of Worth Street. There should be plenty of foot traffic. I know I'd use it when I need to go to one of the three Courts.
What about you? Please limit your response to NYC subway stations only.
and I'd reopen all the stations along the 3rd Ave El too.
The Bx55 needs to go bye, bye
Well the northbound side still exists, the southbound side does not.
Not all northbound trains operate on a track that accesses that platform.
Elias
When I was in high school in Brooklyn in the late '70s, I used the D train to Manhattan, and would switch to the F at 47-50 Rock to Queens. The D would pass right by Myrtle, but I never saw the name tablet. All I saw were the signs on the columns.
wayne
wayne
Yes, Myrtle was a local stop, but then so was DeKalb.
No. the SB platform cannot be put back, because the place where it was isn't there anymore. That whole area has been rebuilt with multi-level flyovers.
Elias
wayne
Dammit!
Please limit your response to stations that actually still exist, though in a closed and abandoned state.
So: MERRICK BLVD!
:-) Andrew
Happy holidays, by the way.
And stop whining.
And Hamilton Beach sounds like a good place for old appliances....
Hamilton Beach is a slightly better choice. But are there enough customers around there to make a new station necessary?
some stations in the Park Avenue Tunnel for MNR service
That's right. It should never have been opened, then they wouldn't have had to close it.
Or no Station Agents at all after rush hours
It also slows down the ride for other people.
Of course even though 59th Street-Columbus Circle is also a major transfer point, that continues to be a local stop, of course the 2/3 make (2) many stops already(lol) so for now things could stay the way they are.
And the loss of speed caused by not making a station stop is greatly exaggerated.
A station costs time & money whether it is manned or not. Time of trains stopping, accelerating & decelerating, costs of maintenance and repair - we are talking millions per year!
There's no free lunch, and there's no need to add Dean St. back to the Franklin Ave shuttle.
#3 West End Jeff
I would really like to balance one against the other, to see if the time saving would be greater than the time loss. I simply think that some lines have too many stops, and there would be a worthwhile net time saving if they ran faster.
I understand your point of view; also there would be political objections to the 15 minutes and no credit for the 15 seconds.
That's because it's still open - the Redbirds terminate there now...
As for another station to reopen, I could only think of 9th Avenue Brooklyn as a terminal for "M" service. Other stations, like 91st Street and 18th Street are too close to other stations to be really useful.
wayne
Actually while on the M, I always thought it would be good to open the Upper Level Myrtle (Broadway) station for a terminal for the M when it operates at shuttle. This would end the at grade switching and crossing with the J there nights and weekends.
Do you know something other subtalkers don't? If we are lucky, City Hall might reopen to the public on 10/27/04. Gotta wonder if the re-enactment of the opening of the subway will only be for VIP or open to the public. -Nick
I'd actually like the MTA to reopen the Avenue L station on the Canarsie Line. Now THAT would be something truly AWESOME. :-)
Anyway, the time comes, and we enter the station, and I make my way up the stairs to the faregate area (they use faregates like those on the Washington, DC Metro, except for the MetroCard "swipe slots" on the top and a color LCD display on the top). We wait a few minutes there as the red-jacket personnel there explain that there has to be a train coming. Eventually, they let us on, and I receive a complimentary $5 MetroCard. I make my way to the platform and wait. The first train pulls in (on the south track), and the crowds get on. Too much crowd, in fact. I decide to wait for the next train. It comes in on the north track, the same one I saw an AirTrain standing at earlier. I get on and I wait a few minutes before the train gets the proper line-up and then we depart. The train rolled above the Van Wyck at a decent speed, albeit slow. Every so often, as we roll along the Van Wyck section, an announcement would play from the Control Center saying that there are delays in service. There was even one that ended with, "we will be moving shortly." I replied, "like we're not moving now?"
Eventually, the train makes it into the central terminal area, and I ride it all the way to the Terminal 8/9 stop. I then transfer to an "all terminals" train and do a round trip back to the Term. 8/9 stop. Then I had a question, "There isn't a fare control here, is there?" I make it through to the street level without passing through one single faregate. I return to the platform and catch a Howard Beach train (all the way to the end), look at the station, and then catch another train (car #101. Incidentally, I saw the guv'ner speaking aboard this car on TV). I took this train to Federal Circle. There, I switched to another Jamaica train. That train flew down the Van Wyck line into Jamaica. I admire the Jamaica station for a few minutes, then I get aboard an E train for the trip home. As I was doing this, I noticed that the piece of crap camera I was using had lost its focus, so I've decided not to use it anymore.
Another thing I've noticed. The signs at the Sutphin Blvd station now say, "Sutphin Blvd-Archer Av/JFK" I think that's a little bit weird because yes, you're near something that TAKES you there, but you're NOWHERE NEAR JFK AIRPORT! (No replies about the sign above the fare control at Jamaica station which states the contrary, please.)
That's it! Now go, make a reply or read another post!
AEM7
See the announcement here.
Mark
Yes, very funny! But it seems to me that this is an important large scale development that should be taken seriously.
Actually, the northern Great Plains here in the U.S. is another place with a lot of potential for windfarm development. With agricultural decline and depopulation in that region, windfarms might be a good resource for states like North Dakota to develop to help boost their economies.
Mark
"The Renewables Obligation calls on all licensed electricity suppliers in England & Wales to supply a specified and growing proportion of their electricity sales from a choice of eligible renewable sources. The Renewables Obligation Scotland is the equivalent instrument in Scotland."
Government intervention seems less likely to happen in the U.S., where policy is (normally) set by market forces.
Energy companies load management typically involves starting natural gas powered generators, at peak demand times, because they can be spun up and down relatively quickly, but also have relatively high fuel costs.
Many residences outside the northeast use electric heat. Wind energy is strongest when it's coldest out.
But certainly you can never power 100% based on wind. But 50% is possible, at least in the northern, windier half of the country, with other sources providing the rest.
I have seen adverts for geothermal energy: you bury some pipes sufficiently far down in the ground so that they tap a layer of earth that is 70F year round, then pump water through them. You need a little extra heat in the winter, but most of the heat is free.
The electric company is trying to scam people.
Clevelands most famous scion: Capt James Cook. There is an obelisk dedicated to him just outside Guisboro.
Moreover, Clevelands most famous scion are The Browns. There is a large oval dedicated to them on the lakefront.
Cahokia and Other Lost Cities
Hey this is on topic, because I rode out there from St. Louis on Metrolink, transfering to a bus in East St. Louis.
Mark
You misunderstood the idea behind my post: JM claimed that the Cleveland in Ohio was original. My response was that the original developments in the US were Mesa Verde and similar developments (I knew there had to be more than one!). However, none of them were labelled Cleveland, and we had to wait for the settlers from Europe for that. Hence recent.
We didnt stray too far from the topic: I posted links to pages that someone created when he walked the Cleveland Way. He describes Saltburn, which has three Railways:
The passenger rail service into what was a relatively grand station building, complete with extra tracks and a platform for guests at the next-door Zetland Hotel (now torn down and converted into apartments sadly).
The remnants of a coast service from Saltburn to Whitby, which was shutdown after World War II, one of the victims of Dr Beeching. The line is mentioned in the walk, as it was resurrected by ICI as far as Boulby so they could use it to haul Potash out of a mine there. This line used to be at the bottom of my garden when I lived in Saltburn!
A miniature railway running about a mile from the Valley Gardens to the shore. Had a diesel locomotive, though it had a cover that made it look like a steam engine. I drove that one as a kid!
Mark
Mark
Mark
So for something completely irrelevant, here are all the cities in the U.S. and where their names come from.
Atlantait was a terminus of the Western & Atlantic Railroad
Baltimoreafter Lord Baltimore, of Baltimore, England
Bostonfor Boston, England
Chicago Native American word meaning "place where the wild onions grow"
Clevelandfor Cleveland, England
Los Angelesshortened from Nuestra Dama Reina de los Angeles, "Our Lady Queen of the Angels," the name of the original Spanish mission
MiamiNative American tribe who lived in what is now Ohio...how the name ended up on a Florida city is beyond me
New Yorkfor the Duke of York, York, England
Philadelphianame of many ancient cities, chosen by William Penn because it translates roughly as "City of Brotherly Love
San Franciscofor St. Francis of Asissi
Washingtonafter George Washington, whose family originated in Washington, England
I think there are more than 11 cities in the USA.
Baltimore after Lord Baltimore, of Baltimore, England
Baltimore's not in England. It's in Co. Cork, Munster Province, Ireland.
Also, I meant all the cities in the U.S. that have heavy subways or elevateds. Typo.
Mark
Standing Peachtree was the name of the fort built on the Georgia frontier by future governor, then Lt. George Gilmer. It may also have been the name of an old Indian village in the area. Early settlers called the area Canebreak or Canebrake, depending on which history you're reading. On June 9, 1835 the federal government recognized the area with the Whitehall Post Office. Hardy Ivy was an early citizen and it was on his property that Stephen Long established the end of the Western and Atlantic Railroad. Colonel Abbott Hall Brisbane, Chief Engineer of the W&A named the area Terminus in September, 1837.
The name Terminus was never an official name and between 1837 and 1842 the area was also called Deanville (for Lemuel Dean) and Thrasherville (for John J. Thrasher).
In 1842 former governor Wilson Lumpkin, then president of the W&A suggested either the name Lumpkin or Mitchell for the town (Samuel Mitchell had given land to build the actual terminus). On December 23, 1842, the tiny town was incorporated as Marthasville in honor of his daughter, Martha Atalanta. The origin of this name may have been an unknown Milledgeville clerk or, more likely, Charles Felton Mercer Garnett, who was then Chief Engineer of the Western and Atlantic Railroad. Anyway, in 1845 Atlanta finally got its name, and has been stuck with it ever since.
http://ngeorgia.com/letters/98feb.html
Mark
That explains something
Either that or one meaning skunk - either way, not a very pleasant place name!
Incidentally, how do you indent everything uniformly like you did in that list of place-etymologies?
Mark
How to get an icon next to a site entry in favourites.
How to change scrollbar colors (though I have never understood why anyone would need this feature on a web page).
Mark
And in:
- AL (two of them)
- AR (two of them)
- IL
- MO
- MS
- NY
- TN
My mother taught me to pay special attention, when washing, to "the Humber", "the Wash", and "the mouth of the Thames". Both the Humber and the Wash are on the east coast, at the mouths of rivers called Ouse, of which England has several.
Might have something to do with "Uisge" being Gaelic for "water".
Likewise, the profusion of Derwents is from the Welsh "Dwr Wyn", "white water".
Interestingly enough, they are proposing windmills for the new World Trade Center buildings.
Mark
I must take a look around sometime to see what the energy density is (how many windmills, how much energy you can get per square mile).
Basically, the whole northern US could be powered in the wintertime (probably not in the summer, when winds are less), as long as the farmers don't mind 5-10% of their land being given over to wind turbines.
Mark
This is what an advocacy site claims. I would hardly believe that's an unbiased source of such information. Clearly other cultures have successfully harvested wind energy before (think Nederlands windmills), so it could be done. But, why should anyone bother while coal is still cheaper?
Eventually it will all happen. When coal becomes scarce enough that other forms of energy look comparatively expensive.
AEM7
Mark
The custom seems to be to fence off an area directly beneath the windmills and not make it available for any form of agriculture.
And if it were available, crops would be more profitable in much of the US (east of 100 degrees longitude) than sheep or cattle.
So precisely who, do you suppose, would use the energy generated by the windfarms?
AEM7
Mark
There is a chicken and egg problem though. There is insufficient transmission capacity to bring any significant amount of power from North Dakota to the big cities.
That problem will be solved, but in a free market economy without major government intervention it takes a long time.
Long distance transmission by grid is not an efficient way of transporting energy. If it were that efficient, coal would not be moving by railroad, and more energy would be nuclear. One of the problems in the nuclear industry has been to convince people that they really want a nuclear plant in their neighbourhood.
There is a chicken and egg problem though. There is insufficient transmission capacity to bring any significant amount of power from North Dakota to the big cities.
That's a return-on-investment issue. It appears right now it's still cheaper to utilize and/or build railroad capacity (to haul coal) than to utilize and/or build transmission capacity (to haul electricity).
AEM7
It is not.
During the World's Columbian Exposition in 1893, the city was so pround of its achievements there, and so boastful of it, that it was nicknamed the Windy City.
Boston is the windest city in North American Metro Areas according to the Boston Globe:
FROM HUB, A BLOW TO CHICAGO
Published on November 13, 2003
Author(s): Beth Daley, GLOBE STAFF
What makes a real New England day? Forget the clear fall afternoons and balmy summer evenings.
Think wind.
Forecasters are predicting a windstorm for today that could bring gusts of 50 miles per hour, enough to splinter tree limbs and blow trash cans down the street. Even if the gusts don't reach that ferocity, the blast of air affirms a little-known fact revealed by climate data: Boston, not Chicago, is really America's windy city.
"There is one piece of weather you can...
Click for complete article (766 words)
Mark
Yes, in Long Island Sound.
Unfortunately NIMBYs pretending to be "environmentalists" oppose it. They don't want their oceanfront views disturbed.
Personally, I think a view of offshore windmills would be a pretty cool sight in of my window!
Mark
It's cheaper! For now.
Greenhouse effects have not been conclusively shown scientifically, and really nobody knows what's happening to the environment. Whatever it is, it ain't good, but whatever we do, it'll get worse. So I'd rather not worry about it.
AEM7
Mark
I actually recently read a Scientific American article that claimed there were carbon processes at work which is soaking up some of the CO2, resulting Greenhouse Effects (and sea level rises) that were slower than initial models predicted.
It's easy to get paranoid if you keep reading the environmentalist propaganda. And actually places that are only 10 feet above sea level are bad places to live ANYWAY even in the absence of Greenhouse Effect (because of flooding risk in Hurricanes).
So, whatever the scientific conclusion is about Greenhouse Effect, I don't think we should particularly care. The human civilization has ways to adapt to changing geological conditions; the Earth also has ways to adapt to changing human conditions, including the excess CO2 that humans generate...
AEM7
That's a very long term properly investment! Don't forget, if there is a change of government, property could be forfeited. I think you'd be safer buying U.S. government bonds. Wait -- you might actually be better off with preferred Microsoft shares.
AEM7
Of course. But the places in the next few feet above that, where right now the risk of a tidal surge is very low, will become much riskier. Try all of Holland and much of Florida!
I care about Holland much more than I do Florida.
Well, maybe I should take Greenhouse Effects more seriously. Nonetheless, people will cope. Unless you go nuclear, there's really no way to solve the energy problem. Even if you do, nuclear brings its own problems.
There should be a law that every town called Springfield should have an extremely large Nucular Power Station in it. There's ten for you (FL, IL, MA, MI, MO, NJ, OH, OR, PA, TN) - how many does the USA need?
If you could supply half of the world's power with wind and solar, it wouldn't be so terrible to use fossil fuels for much of the rest.
I took an environmental economics class which focused on global warming and basically there is a about an equal likleyhood of the catestrophic events (ie gulf steam shutting down/massive permafrost release) occuring as nothing occuring. The money bet is on the mildly unpleasant middle ground with 6-20 feet of sealevel rise and associated climate shifts.
Risking massive global fuckups just to save a few cents on our electric bills seems ludricious. Especially when the result should seriously threaten this country's dominance in the global food market.
Just because the science is 100% dosen't mean that you should ignore it out of hand. Look at the investment community where people diversify or try to hedge their bets. People who rail against global warming are only trying to preserve the status quo for their own ends. Especially since cleaner technologies also prevent air pollution which DOES harm people and conserves natural resources which are LIMITED.
They have been demonstrated scientifically to all but Republican politicians.
Where's the PROFF?
Mark
But you run into the "problem of the common". Since some people believe that Greenhouse gases can cause harm, while others do not believe it, yet all people share the same air -- if you choose not to pollute the air, all that happens is that someone else will pollute the air, and you will drive your own costs up against the competitors.
The externalities argument in this case really does not fly, at least the anti-coal part. Coal power plants are actually relatively easy to scrub, and the harmful emission can be curbed with relatively inexpensive filters. No matter what you burn (unless it's uranium), you're going to produce CO2.
Wind power may be billed as the next big thing, pollution free. However, to produce the wind turbines themselves require steel, which is made in blast furnaces -- big emitter of CO2. Blast furnaces also burn Coal. Over the lifetime of the turbine, it is not clear that the turbines themselves consume more energy in its production than it generates (i.e. it might be take more energy to actually dig out the iron from the ground, turn it into steel, make into a turbine, and then scrap the turbine, than the energy that the turbine will generate during its lifetime). Then there's the issue of steel dust that comes with large rotating steel devices. Wind power is not free of externalities.
AEM7
The problem of the comoon is why judicious use of government regulation is critical in any society.
The externalities argument in this case really does not fly, at least the anti-coal part. Coal power plants are actually relatively easy to scrub, and the harmful emission can be curbed with relatively inexpensive filters. No matter what you burn (unless it's uranium), you're going to produce CO2.
You forget that the chemical reactions for burning coal and burning hydrocarbons are different. Roughly twice as much CO2 is created for every BTU generated burning coal as for a BTU generated burning a hydrocarbon.
Wind power may be billed as the next big thing, pollution free. However, to produce the wind turbines themselves require steel, which is made in blast furnaces -- big emitter of CO2. Blast furnaces also burn Coal. Over the lifetime of the turbine, it is not clear that the turbines themselves consume more energy in its production than it generates.
Some simple back of the envelope calculations can demonstrate that the energy used to manufacture the wind turbine is orders of magnitude smaller than the energy it produces over its life. And besides, fossil fuel plants take energy to manufacture too.
And as you know the problem of the commons is to have some sort of regulation or ownership to prevent anyone from polluting without first transfering resources to compensate for that harm.
The externalities argument in this case really does not fly, at least the anti-coal part. Coal power plants are actually relatively easy to scrub, and the harmful emission can be curbed with relatively inexpensive filters. No matter what you burn (unless it's uranium), you're going to produce CO2.
But the harmful emmission IS CO2. Coal is 100% carbon, while natural gas is only 20% carbon and other hydrocarbons achieving mixes inbetween. Anyway, if you ask any rational environmental type they will advocate the use of energy sources that don't use combustion at all and the reduction/more efficient use of energy in general.
Wind power may be billed as the next big thing, pollution free. However, to produce the wind turbines themselves require steel, which is made in blast furnaces -- big emitter of CO2. Blast furnaces also burn Coal. Over the lifetime of the turbine, it is not clear that the turbines themselves consume more energy in its production than it generates (i.e. it might be take more energy to actually dig out the iron from the ground, turn it into steel, make into a turbine, and then scrap the turbine, than the energy that the turbine will generate during its lifetime). Then there's the issue of steel dust that comes with large rotating steel devices. Wind power is not free of externalities.
The proposition that a windfarm is more resource intensive than a coal plant is ludicrious. Raw steel use aside, you need to transport the coal too the plant week after week after week. This transportation requires energy and capital and getting the coal in the first place requires even MORE energy and capital. This isn't a single fixed energy expendature...its an ongoig variable energy expendature. Wind farms, hydro plants, etc have no transport or resource resovery costs.
If you are so quick to dismiss global warming, why are you so sure that there is nothing that we can do about it.
Science is still "on the fence" about low freqency sound waves and their affects on humans and animals.
We gripe about the noise levels in the subway and at rock concerts, but very little is known about low frequency sound waves.
I agree about the noise. It's not fair to locate a windmill almost literally in someone's back yard unless you're paying them and they agree.
But that's not an issue with the proposals for windmills several miles out to sea. It's also not an issue for windmills on top of ridges in central New York State and other places where there's been opposition.
A lot is known about the effects of exposure to sound and vibration at all frequencies. The center frequency for the low bad for octave band analyzers is 31.5 Hz. The center frequency of the low band one-third octave band analyzers is 10 Hz. They've been using these standards since the 1930's.
The A-scale weighting corresponds to the spectral weighting for perceived equal loudness. The 31.5 octave band component is weighted down 45 db from the 1 Khz band. This means that a tone within the 31.5 ocatave band were 45 db greater than one in the 1 Khz band, then a human observer would perceive that both tones are equally loud. It also corresponds to the spectral content of human speech.
Hearing loss due to noise exposure is frequency dependent. If somebody is exposed to noise at a certain frequency, that person may loose some acuity at that frequency. It would not affect the acuity at other frequencies.
However, many studies have been done as to how noise exposure affects one's ability to perform simple tasks that are not speech related. Many have been related to noise exposure in a factory envorinment. Factory owners have had a vested interest in reducing noise levels, when it affects worker productivity and accident rates.
As usual, your statements ignore effects of externalities other than the obvious one. Hearing loss is one issue, but there may be other issues associated with low frequency vibration. There are property impacts as well as human impacts. Property impact might include cracked walls due to resonance, for example.
In the same way that the effect of strong EM waves are unknown, so are the effect of low frequency sound. But again, I don't think I really care. If it's unknown, then one ought to assume that it is harmless.
And so no one can accuse me of being a Brit Basher - they should do the same in Congress.
There is a lot of lively debate (and witty ad-hoc comments) on the floor of the Commons itself. When I have looked at Congress on C-Span I have found it relatively dull, oftentimes members are reading prepared positions into the official record, sort of like watching grass grow. The interesting stuff in the USA takes place in committees.
Prime Ministers question time is a time for public accountability, when the countrys leader is required to answer to the representatives of the people. While the PM has notice of the first question (not unreasonable), the MP asking it is allowed to ask a supplementary, which is when some of the political fireworks happen! I cant imagine GWB getting up in front of either the Senate or the House and subjecting himself to the same!
I think that the lively debate creates public speakers who can think on their feet. Whatever you might think of her policies, Margaret Thatcher was a master of debate, and one-line zingers. When has GWB ever made a speech that he hasnt read verbatim from a teleprompter?
- I saw an R142 (rear car 7715) on the IND 8th Ave line running thru 50th Street on the uptown express track
- Someone mentioned that the Q and W are swapping cars. Is that process complete? I saw nothing but R68Q's and R68A W's.
BTW, I bought a new x-Card for my digital camera and I now have PLENTY of memory for the upcoming MOD trips. Gonna be a blast!
Hmmmm ...
You may have seen its test run, or perhaps its transfer back home to the 4 (finally).
Regards and Happy Holidays,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Check it out!
Bloomberg Bumped
Then there was an article about the race to get to the airport by 3 reporters. The first used the subway, the second used the LIRR and the third took a cab from the Port Authority area.
Race to the Plane
It's a Good Thing Governor Pataki Lowered His Head Exiting
And the TTC chime sound sounds like it was lifted directly from TTC's official Web site.
What ever happened to people making their own content anymore?
Ben F. Schumin :-)
People getting ideas- Record your own soundfiles, and don't think of lifting mine.
And that makes it right to use them? All it means is that you got them my means of a third party. It's just like as if someone else steals a car and then gives it to you. The car's still stolen, whether or not you actually stole it from its owner or not.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
If you steal electronically encoded data from my computer, my use of that same data is in no way impaired.
I'm not condoning illegal file-sharing, I'm just pointing out that you can't compare it to theft of physical items.
The next time I proclaim that the subway is not a public good, I need your support when someone responds and says it is.
I hope you've got some real good anti-virus software on your computer. Kazaa, Morpheus et al. will let in some real nasties if you're not careful. (Plus - I'm not sure if this is the case with Kazaa - many of these P2P sharing services come with trojans - be warned!).
Kazaa Lite accesses the same system without adware. Kazaa put the kibosh on that, it still works, but the searches will become less and less potent with time. Diet K will delete the Adware and allow KMD to run without it.
Help yourself. Just give credit to me.
Too lazy to go on the Mainline and Eastern Division.
Subwayspot.com
Thanks, in advance.
Also, for some reason, there was a delay today. The train to Jamaica was 20 minutes late.
However, if you do the curency conversion you will find that getting to JFK is cheaper then takeing the airport express trains to the London area airports.
I may be at JFK on the 29th as well, pickin up family from Puerto Rico. I'm plannin on takin airtrain from Jamaica.
The GBP is more valuable than the USD, but it is not necessarily stronger. It just so happens that the GBP is stronger than the USD right now. The JPY is far, far less valuable than the USD, but it is currently stronger.
A- 207 St, Manhattan to Far Rockaway,Queens via 8 Ave/Fulton St/Rockaway Express All times (some rush hour trains to Rockaway Pk)
B- 168 St, Manhattan To Stillwell Av, Brooklyn via Central Pk West/6 Ave/West End Local (B operates as West End Express in peak direction (rush hour) only Weekend B trains operate between Stillwell Av and 36 St, Brooklyn
C - Bedford Pk Blvd, Bronx to Lefferts Blvd, Queens via Concourse/8 ave/Fulton St/Liberty Ave Local All times
D- 205 St, Bronx to Brighton Beach via Concourse/Central Pk West/6 Ave/Brighton Express All times
E- as is
F- 179 St, Queens, to Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn via Queens Blvd/53 St/6 Ave/Culver Express (operates local in Manhattan on weekends)
G- 71 Av, Queens to Church Av, Bklyn via Queens Blvd/Bklyn-Queens Crosstown Local All times
V- 71 Ave Queens to Rockaway Pkwy Bklyn via Queens Blvd/63 St/6 Ave/Broadway(Bklyn)/Canarsie Local Weekdays only
Sherlock
Sherlock
Why not run the D train 16/5 and the B train 24/7, extended to 205th St when the D train isn't running.
As for the Culver business, I meant express over whatever the F line is called between Church Ave and Bergen.
So you'd have F Express and G Local? Local riders aren't gonna like this!
I think that line is called the IND South Brooklyn.
A 207St-Rockaways; CPW,8 Av & Fulton Express; nights only Euclid-Rockaways
B 168 St-CI CPW L,6 Av X,skips DeKalb,4 Av X,West End; nights 207St-Pacific::West End service by J
C Bedford Park-WTC; CPW,8 Av Local; nights and weekends from 205 St
D 205-CI CPW,6 Av, Brighton Express; Weekday-day service; rush-hour peak Concourse Express
E JC-Lefferts QB,8 Av Express, Fulton Local; nights QP-Lefferts
F 179St-CI QB X,6 Av,Smith,Culver Local; nights 21St-CI::179 service by R; weekday-day some trains terminate at 2 Av or Church
G Court-Church X-Town,Smith Local; nights JC-Smith Express JC-FH; weekends only to Smith
H JC-WTC QB X,8 Av L; weekday-day service
V FH-CI QB,6 Av Local,Smith Express weekday-day service;rush hout peak express on Culver
A: 207th to Far Rockaway, all times. To Rockaway Park also rush hours only.
B: BPB Bronx or 145th to Coney Island via Sea Beach in Brooklyn, weekdays. Shuttle to Pacific all other times.
C: Lefferts Blvd to 168th Street. Nights shuttle to Euclid.
D: 205th St to COney Island via Brighton Local.
F: 179th St. to Coney Island, express in Brooklyn on weekdays.
G: Court Sq. to Church Ave, all times.
N: Astoria to CI, express via Manhattan Bridge (weekdays), local via tunnel (weekends, nights) and West End.
Q: 57th/7th to Brighton Beach via Brighton/Broadway express, weekdays to 11 PM
V: Forest Hills to Church Ave, weekdays.
W: Astoria to Whitehall via Bway Local, weekdays.
Other lines would remain unchanged.
For those Subtalkers driving from NYC you need to be at the Woodcrest PATCO station no later than 9:30 and preferably 9:15. I will be open to meeting any Subtalker at Woodcrest provided they call me when they reach exit 7A on the NJTPK.
Ok, moving on. If Chapter11 is in attendence, we will go to Pattison after riding the BRS from Fern Rock. If not, we will catch an R2 Wilmington and then transfer to the Rt 102 trolley in Sharron Hill.
We need to be on a Rt. 10 trolley for the special sceret event by no later than 5PM if we want to be able to eat dinner in a reasonable time frame. Dinner will consist of Chineese food.
Ok, since the special post trip event only has limited slots preferance will go to the first 5 who confirmed about going on this trip.
The first 5 are:
Chuchubob
American Pig
Charles G
Wdobner
you, R6
Sorry Chapter 11, 79% probability dosen't cut it. You might get stuck on the wait list, out taking photos in the cold.
With apologies to Christina Rosetti
Neither can 6 people. So who do you know now? Some guy running the Geep on Tony Marcie's railroad?
AEM7
Later in the trip we got another cab ride.
Six is a bit many. Since JM is so adamant about limiting the number of participants, we'll volunteer him to ride in the back of the train.
What's wrong with knowing some guy who's running the Geep on Tony's railroad?
Nothing, although I just thought that it scarcely qualifies as a "special secret event". Mike likes all of his things to be "special" and "secret". Maybe that's because he doesn't have a "special secret" girlfriend. Or maybe he does, but because she is "special" and "secret", I don't get to hear about it.
AEM7
Looks like you've just blown your cover... these stories are the ones you tell AFTERWARDS, and not BEFOREHAND. (Like the SEPTA Shoppe Tour story).
In spite of its number, Geep #7000 on the CMSL is a GP-9; it was the first GP-9 delivered to the PRR.
Mike wouldn't want to get P****** in trouble by mentioning any names.
Grrrr, nobody ever comes on this trip. Its only suposted to be popular with philly Subtalkers.
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
(Charles D. Greene)-in my other life.
http://www.empire.state.ny.us
GARGANO, ESD SOLICIT INTEREST FOR "ONE-SEAT" RIDE TO CONNECT
MID-TOWN MANHATTAN AND JOHN F. KENNEDY INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT
Empire State Development (ESD) Chairman Charles A. Gargano today announced that ESD issued a Request for Expressions of Interest (RFEI) for a "one-seat" rail access link between Midtown Manhattan and John F. Kennedy International Airport (JFK). The service would ultimately provide a 25-minute direct train link between the new Farley-Pennsylvania Station and JFK.
"In 1996, Governor George Pataki unveiled his Masterlinks program, a comprehensive and integrated transportation plan geared towards improving access to the region's airports," Chairman Gargano said. "The program has already led to the AirTrain project to improve JFK's transportation services, and now another tremendous milestone is being reached.
"Today we are advancing efforts to provide the traveling public with a high quality, state-of-the-art "one-seat" rail ride between one of the nation's busiest international airports and America's busiest transportation center.
"Our redevelopment of Penn Station is bringing back its spectacular grandeur and dramatically improving travel services to Mid-Town Manhattan. A "one-seat" ride, similar to the highly successful Heathrow Express in London, would be another monumental achievement. It would demonstrate the power of the public-private partnership while providing long-overdue train-to-plane travel services," Gargano said.
ESD will solicit proposals for a public-private partnership to develop the "one-seat" rail ride. The RFEI is an important first step in creating a public-private partnership to provide "one-seat" service, and serves as the foundation for issuing specific requests for proposals in the near future.
Donald J. Carty, Chairman and CEO of American Airlines, endorsed the "one-seat" ride concept recently at the groundbreaking of America Airlines $1.2 billion new terminal project at JFK. Mr. Carty said, "Governor Pataki and Chairman Gargano are to be commended for launching this bold and innovative project. The one-seat ride will be a terrific boon for air travelers to and from Manhattan. When completed, passengers will be able to check in themselves and their luggage at Penn Station, board a train, and be at JFK in 25 minutes."
JetBlue Airways CEO David Neeleman said, "JetBlue is all about providing New Yorkers with a better travel experience for a very affordable price. Jetblue, New York's new low fare hometown airline, congratulates Governor George Pataki and Empire State Development Corporation Chairman Charles Gargano on this bold initiative in pursuit of a one-seat ride between JFK and Manhattan. The vision of the Governor and the ESD in planning the next steps for the JFK light rail project is critical for the efficient transportation of all New Yorkers."
JetBlue airways is New York's new low fare home town airline based at JFK starting service on February 11th to Fort Lauderdale and Buffalo, New York the week following. By the end of 2000 JetBlue will serve 11 cities with 10 brand new Airbus A320 aircraft.
The RFEI seeks to build upon two major transportation initiatives designed to provide improved rail and airport access, the AirTrain project and the redevelopment of Pennsylvania Station. A timeline on both projects is attached.
The Port Authority of New York and New Jersey is responsible for the AirTrain project, which will provide rail service between JFK and Jamaica Station. The Port Authority would operate in tandem with a direct one-seat ride service. The Metropolitan Transportation Authority (MTA) operates the Long Island Rail Road (LIRR) from Penn Station to Jamaica Station.
The Pennsylvania Station Redevelopment Corporation is transforming the existing Penn Station into a world-class intermodal transportation and commercial facility inside the James A. Farley Post Office Building.
The Farley-Penn Station project includes flagship facilities for Amtrak intercity rail and is designed to incorporate fully integrated one-seat ride service between Farley and JFK. The project includes airline ticketing and baggage check-in, saving "one-seat" passengers valuable time and effort for domestic and international air travel.
Responses to the RFEI are due by 5:00 p.m. local time on March 17, 2000.
Charles A. Gargano is Chairman of Empire State Development Corporation (ESDC), the lead economic development agency for the State of New York. Mr. Gargano also serves as the Vice-Chairman of the New York-New Jersey Port Authority, as well as the Chairman of the Pennsylvania Station Redevelopment Corporation.
The RFEI will solicit broad proposals from the respondents on their approach to achieving the following objectives:
A safe, clean, comfortable travel experience for airport bound passengers;
Utilization of existing MTA LIRR mainline and proposed AirTrain railroads to create a direct rail connection between Farley-Penn Station and JFK (approximately 17 miles);
Provision of a direct, one-seat ride service that would allow for (a) the necessary AirTrain light rail service between Jamaica Station and JFK, (b) the future implementation of a one-seat ride subway connection at Howard Beach, and (c) a stop at Jamaica Station;
Resolution of issues involving MTA LIRR tunnel and mainline peak hour capacity in the context of both current LIRR service and after the 63rd Street East-Side Access to Grand Central Terminal becomes available.
Build-out of airline baggage sorting room and airline baggage conveyor system at the Farley Station;
Operation of a direct service that offers a 25-minute connection time between Farley-Penn Station and JFK, regular schedule with dependable 15-20 minute head-ways between train departures, the availability of high level of passenger service and amenities including airline ticketing and baggage check-in services, automated ticketing, on-board passenger information systems, and other customer services.
If interested in receiving a copy of the RFEI, please call 212-803-3741.
###
Timeline Leading To One-Seat Ride Proposal
May, 1996. Governor George E. Pataki proposes the Masterlinks program, outlining a comprehensive transportation plan to provide New York City and the region with the finest, integrated transportation network in the world. A component of the Masterlinks calls for the state, local, and regional authorities to work together towards reaching this goal and emphasizes improved access to the region's airports.
July, 1998. As part of the Masterlinks program, a Memorandum of Agreement (MOA) concerning New York airport access is signed by New York State, New York City, the Borough of Queens, the Metropolitan Transportation Authority, and the Port Authority. The MOA commits to the construction of a light rail system, AirTrain, for providing access to JFK. The MOA further directs that the AirTrain be compatible with a future one-seat ride to Midtown Manhattan.
Summer, 1998. The Port Authority begins construction on the $1.825 billion AirTrain system. Service is expected to begin in 2003.
May, 1999. Plans unveiled for the new $565 million Pennsylvania Station in the James A. Farley Post Office in New York City, expected to create 7,600 new jobs and $65 million in tax revenues during its construction phase.
The current Pennsylvania Station is already the nation's busiest transportation facility, and the project will transform the post office into the world's premier intermodal train station. The new station is expected to create 1,600 new, permanent jobs, opening the West Side of Manhattan for further economic growth.
The Grand Opening of the Farley-Pennsylvania Station facility is expected in 2004.
January, 2000. RFEI issued to solicit interest for a "one-seat" ride between JFK and Farley-Penn Station.
Spring, 2000. Projected date to issue Request for Proposals (RFP) for the "one-seat" ride.
Summer, 2000. Projected date to select team to develop, build, and operate the "one-seat" ride.
Fall, 2001. Estimated completion of engineering and regulatory review for the "one-seat" ride.
2004. Projected start of the "one-seat" ride revenue service between JFK and Farley-Penn Station.
I believe that date was pushed back when they ran into trouble setting up the transfer at 76th Street.
If I were running the Port Authority, I would be working on cleaning up the glitches in the JFK Airtrain, and monitoring the LIRR to ensure that its part of the bargain was being kept. I would also be on NJ Transits back to improve train frequency during non rush-hours to Newark, perhaps some dedicated two-car trains la Dinky.
The market that will make these trains, and help the rest of us in doing so, is the two/three day business trip, where the passenger has a briefcase and an overnight bag, so the airport trip has to be convenient and demonstrably less time than the taxi.
That said, I was encouraged last Saturday to see a large number of people taking NJ Transit from Princeton to EWR, though it was a one-shot deal: students returning home at the end of the semester.
Arti
It would not be "nonstop", but limited stops like Jamaica, Downtown Brooklyn and maybe one other spot for trains heading into Lower Manhattan.
Compare that to our connection to JFK. For $7 you can take the subway from anywhere and get there in about 50 minutes. Or you can take the LIRR and Airtrain and go for $8.75 non-rush hour or $11.50 rush hour. Does anyone believe that it's economically feasible to build a train that will cost $15-20 per passenger for the few thousand going to JFK each day by train. We here are all complaining about the $7 total now. Will we accept the much, much higher price for an "elitist" railroad track to an airport, which may never pay for itself, but be a major disruption during construction? The brilliance of the AirTrain is that it is above-ground, has a small footprint, and is in the median of a very crowded expressway and went through a (for New York) relatively unpopulated area.
It would be better if they built another Airtrain from the N train to LGA in the median strip of Astoria Blvd or of the Grand Central Parkway.
On the return journey, I take a 15 bus.
The alternative, the Piccadilly line, does get a bit cramped with luggage close to the airport, though they have designed the cars with extra space by the doors for cases. Having seen the scenic route a couple of times, I have voted with my feet for the faster train.
If I were coming into the city for the first time, and time were not of a big question, I would still recommend one of the airport buses. There are double-deckers and you can almost always get the busfan window upstairs.
Yep, that's about right:
Fares between London Paddington & Heathrow T1,2,3X
Standard Open Single
13.00
$22.98
First Open Single
21.00
37.13
Standard Open Return
25.00
$44.14
First Open Return
42.00
$74.25
Children under 5 travel free, 5-15 travel half-price. However, Railcards are not valid... grrr... (another part of how modern Britain loves to screw students and the elderly over).
On the return journey, I take a 15 bus.
I guess it's not the slowest bus in London, but Oxford St's hardly a quick section by any definition. Anyway, it's slow enough to have been split between the 15 Paddington - Blackwall and the 115 Aldgate - East Ham.
Having seen the scenic route a couple of times, I have voted with my feet for the faster train.
Get away - it flies along between Baron's Court and Acton Town, with a quick stop at Hammersmith!
If I were coming into the city for the first time, and time were not of a big question, I would still recommend one of the airport buses. There are double-deckers and you can almost always get the busfan window upstairs.
That's not the busfan window; that's downstairs on the left front!
I guess its not the slowest bus in London, but Oxford Sts hardly a quick section by any definition. Anyway, its slow enough to have been split between the 15 Paddington - Blackwall and the 115 AldgateEast Ham.
Agreed, but Im only taking it between Westbourne Grove and Paddington, so I dont care about the rest, which I agree is slow, but the 15 has some of the most congested parts of Central London (Oxford Street, Fleet Street) as part of its route.
Having seen the scenic route a couple of times, I have voted with my feet for the faster train.
Get awayit flies along between Barons Court and Acton Town, with a quick stop at Hammersmith!
True, but there are a lot of other stops. Actually, I might be biased against the tube here, because I wanted to avoid humping luggage up and down stairs. I would take the Piccaddilly to Barons Court, change for a District, which just about always meant another change at Earls Court for a train to Notting Hill Gate. So there was extra perceived slowness in this process that probably counts against it in my mind.
Thats not the busfan window; thats downstairs on the left front!
Depends on the bus. Certainly its good for the Routemasters and RTs. On the new-style driver-operated buses, the view is better upstairs. Still, I come with a bias, I grew up with the United Bus Company in Cleveland/Teesside/then Cleveland, which is now part of nArrive-pas. They had two-person buses with front louvre doors, and the best seat was front upstairs. The driver was isolated from the rest of the bus, but had visibility upstairs via a periscope and a convex mirror, so you could make gestures to him without him being able to do anything about it!
If only the District had built 4 tracks to Hounslow East - then the Piccadilly Line ride could be 4 stops shorter.
"Thats not the busfan window; thats downstairs on the left front!"
Depends on the bus. Certainly its good for the Routemasters and RTs.
And IMHO there's only one proper type of bus! I hate these slow one man operation objects that masquerade as buses.
They had two-person buses with front louvre doors, and the best seat was front upstairs. The driver was isolated from the rest of the bus, but had visibility upstairs via a periscope and a convex mirror, so you could make gestures to him without him being able to do anything about it!
LOL!!!
I agree for Central London operation (and just about anywhere that there are frequent stops with people getting on and off) that two man/person operation makes much more sense: fares can be collected while the bus is in motion. And I will sorely regret the day when the rear entry buses with no doors leave service: how else are you supposed to negotiate Oxford Street?!
For the airport run however, the situation is different: there are a couple of loading stops (I dont think each bus serves all the terminals), a run along the M4, followed by a bunch of drop-offs. In this situation, one-person operation doesnt make a lot of difference. Whether these are proper buses, I dont know. Maybe they are vulgar buses, in the same sense as vulgar fractions!
Exactly! I like leaping onto a bus which is nowhere near a bus stop and seeing the strange look on the conductor's face at a one day travelcard that says Birmingham on it!
For the airport run however, the situation is different: there are a couple of loading stops (I dont think each bus serves all the terminals), a run along the M4, followed by a bunch of drop-offs. In this situation, one-person operation doesnt make a lot of difference.
Maybe a permanent conductor (or machine) should be stuck at Heathrow, so that people can get their tickets before boarding.
Whether these are proper buses, I dont know. Maybe they are vulgar buses, in the same sense as vulgar fractions!
Sorry, sir, this isn't a 65; it's a 130/2!!!
Kinda both - I've been drawing maps...
Yep, that's about right:
Fares between London Paddington & Heathrow T1,2,3X
Standard Open Single
13.00
$22.98
First Open Single
21.00
$37.13
Standard Open Return
25.00
$44.14
First Open Return
42.00
$74.25
Children under 5 travel free, 5-15 travel half-price. However, Railcards are not valid... grrr... (another part of how modern Britain loves to screw students and the elderly over).
On the return journey, I take a 15 bus.
I guess it's not the slowest bus in London, but Oxford St's hardly a quick section by any definition. Anyway, it's slow enough to have been split between the 15 Paddington - Blackwall and the 115 Aldgate - East Ham.
Having seen the scenic route a couple of times, I have voted with my feet for the faster train.
Get away - it flies along between Baron's Court and Acton Town, with a quick stop at Hammersmith!
If I were coming into the city for the first time, and time were not of a big question, I would still recommend one of the airport buses. There are double-deckers and you can almost always get the busfan window upstairs.
That's not the busfan window; that's downstairs on the left front!
But at least the alternative exists. Obviously some people use it, or it wouldn't get cramped with luggage.
We've never had an alternative like that, and the closest that we have had is history.
Heh, and don't even get me started on that one again...
December 19, 1903-Williamburg Bridge is completed and opened.
September 16, 1908-BMT train service begins
1920s-BMT trolley tracks on the inner roadways replaced with motor vehicle lanes
1988-Bridge closed temporarily when structural damage is found. A reconstruction project begins.
June 5, 1995-A R40M J train crashes into a M train on the Brooklyn viaduct approach, killing a train operator.
1997-The south roadways are rebuilt.
Summer 1999-The original BMT elevated structure is demolished and totally rebuilt.
2001-North roadways rebuilt.
2002-New footwalks and bikeways open. New ornamental signwork and concrete pillars are placed at the Manhattan end of the bridge.
Marge Simpson has
Leave the Brooklyn Bridge to the Fulton St Line, connect the Upper Manny B South Side to the 5th Av Line and the Upper Manny B North Side to the Myrtle Av Line - :-D
Bill "Newkirk"
Response (Kevin Kade) - 12/18/2003 09:44 AM
Thank you for your email and your suggestion regarding a new ticket/fare covering a trip from Manhattan's Penn Station via the Long Island Rail Road's Jamaica Station to JFK.
This suggestion has been made and it is currently under consideration by the Port Authority.
Thanks once again for the suggestion. We hope you use and enjoy the AirTrain.
Sincerely,
To keep the e-mail brief, I used NYP as a starting point as an example.
Bill "Newkirk"
1) Will city agency-issued annual unlimited "Gold" MetroCards work for the system?
2) To the NYCT employees: Do your EPIC passes work? :)
No, because it's a "value" ride, so it will cost you an additional $5
EPIC passes worked for a while. But that was until about 2 weeks ago.
What a way to slap senior citizens and the disabled in the face.
SHAME ON YOU PORT AUTHORITY!
1) Connect to the World
2) Celebrate AirTrain JFK
3) Make the JFK Connection (when/where was this one given out?)
4) what's the fourth one?
Bill "Newkirk"
Nametags
They are Subtalk and Straps specific so choose the correct one.
I've seen this car mentioned numerous times here and always with some reference to tuna.
(1) South Ferry (9), what's the deal about this car?
I could swear on my non-redbird sanity that r-62a's WERE delivered
and that the car numbers stalled after 2475..
Who says "they were never delivered"??
Ride tha 1.
"they were never produced past 2475" you mean.
Pile driving causes vibrations. If the piles are not firmly embedded in the supports, then there are going to be subsidence problems later.
In the cases of dispute I hope that the homeowners win compensation so they can repair/rehabilitate the damage caused by the construction. However, all we have is the article, with its bias of Were not getting anything out of this negativism.
Anyway, my understanding is that all of the houses within a certain distance from the construction area were surveyed for damage before construction and then after.
Different types of soil/rock absorb vibrations at different levels. The softer the material the more vibrations are absorbed. The ground is layered, with harder material (bedrock) deeper and softer top layer (soil) on top. Therefore one would expect that vibrations that excite the top layer would be attenuated before it travelled any appreciable distance. However, if vibrations were set off in a rock layer, they would propagate within that layer with very little attenuataion.
Suppose the pillars had to rest on bedrock. Suppose the bedrock were 50 feet below the surface. Then the vibrations from the pile drivers would propagate sidewards with very little attenuation and then upwards for 50 feet to cause damage to the house. Acoustically, it would be equivalent to having the house within 50 feet or 3 traffic traffic lanes from the pile driver.
I would think that the damage can't be proved.
Drill a hole down where the pile depth. Instrument the houses with vibration sensors. Set off a small explosive charge down the hole and monitor the vibration sensors. You'll get a fairly good idea of whether its the home owner or the PA who is blowing smoke.
The reason is simple: hundreds or thousands of claims come in during and after these projects and when someone says: "you cracked my brickwork" they go to the "before" pix before they pay.
Bill "Newkirk"
There were indeed claims for foundation related damage, which occurred due to pile driving. These were mostly paid. The ones that were not will be settled by the PA's insurer. The amounts involved are so small, relative to the project, that it isn't worth litigating them. The one homeowner claiming that he sees new cracks all the time sounds like he's priming the pump to squeeze more insurance money out of the PA. If it is a scam on his part, we'll see if the PA just sweetens the offer a little to get this resolved. Again, the amounts we are talking about here are tiny. Compare this, to, say, the lady who collected from McDonald's over being scalded by coffee.
The whining about quality of life is so ridiculous it belongs in MAD magazine. But the Chronicle needs to sell papers, so what else do you want them to write about? Whining and bellyaching is a fine New York tradition.
A readily accessible example of the buzzin noise
I apologize.
UH-OH better get Bean-o!
Dan
I will be out of town from tomorrow until Tuesday afternoon/evening. Before anyone asks, I will NOT be on any of the MOD trips this weekend. I may check my e-mail occasionally while I am away and will return any messages sent when I get back.
Have a great weekend!
Oren
I've always wondered why people who would never turn in front of a tractor trailer will turn in front a train.
Mark
Seems nothing short of having full-width barrier gates (like Los Angeles LR lines) will stop people from crossing light-rail tracks. These tracks in Houston aren’t even full street-running, what with no road traffic being permitted on its alignment.
Anyone recall the HBLRT accidents in Jersey City earlier this year? These are ungated crossings too. Doesn’t make a difference how much noise the crossings make.
At least the news article did indicate that in all cases, it was the fault of the automobile driver.
That is true…but after 50 years of highway and local motoring, that’s asking too much, unless the FHA suddenly gets as regulatory as the FRA and the FTA.
I got a solution.
Strobe lights.
We got em in intersections that are deemed "dangerous". Red light lights up, a horozontial strobe blink in the red light.
Just noticed them installed on Tampa's Trolley. Right under the no right turn led.
There you go.
Adam
I saw an R-99 today going to Howard Beach!
AEM7
The cars should be called AT-1.
; ]
The Port Authority does not, as far as I am aware, call the Airtrain cars anything but "cars." There must have been a contract number under which the cars were ordered, but the contract may not have been between the Port Authority and Bombardier, depending on the arrangement by which Airtrain was constructed and equipped.
David
David
Stop assuming gangstas are the roots of your problems. If your internet connection went awry, would you blame it on a gangsta?
Please Watch the Non-Opening Doors
http://www.panynj.gov/airtrain/AIRT-0117_JFK.pdf
The map will be on page 6 of the brochure.
1) No emergency button for passengers to open the platform doors from trackside.
2) No way of walking through the train to a car with working doors.
I was surprised by this and more people got off to find alternate ways to get going. Meanwhile, the sign changes to Jamaica Station, so I jumped on. The train sat another 3-5 minutes, then proceeded to Terminal 7, where the train was taken out of service. The bus system took another 15 minutes to come back online and I had to let the first bus to Howard Beach go. No buses ran to Jamaica Station. I caught a bus around 11:15pm and got home at 1am. The system was not shut down until after 11pm.
My thoughts:
1) Customer service personnel should be given some information about ground transportation options in general. They should also be given some information when he system has problems.
2) Spotters should be in plainclothes throughout the system.
3) Howard Beach and Jamaica trains should have been rerouted to the circulator track.
4) The Port Authority needs to have plans to implement in 15 minutes or less. Certain flights only operate tri-weekly. Speed is key.
5) The Port Authority should take these issues seriously. A train (may be the same one) opened its doors outside of Terminal 7 and there was no platform. These problems should have been fixed on the R142.
Light Rail Sparks Spinoff Near Megamall
Mark
They point to examples in L.A., Portland, etc. to prove their point.
I finally spotted the new hotel being built right up AGAINST the TECO line in Tampa. Last week. This week I hear about an embassy suites being built on the same block as the terminal on the other end, by the Marriott. ANd now I'm reading about more condos and junk along it.
I hope this adds fuel to a possible LRT offshoot. I couldn't dream of what that could do.
I love florida and it's gentrification habits. Orlando's got many projects in it's downtown, I sense they truely are a step away from really realizing the need. Too bad by the time they're finally get it planned out and built, it'll probably be too late for me to enjoy it at my current capacity.
Everything would be fine if they were just disasters-on-wheels. The REAL problem is that they spend most of their time on the ground!!
I doubt the MBTA would raise the platforms anymore then they already have. Platform raising has already been completed on several stations: Park Street, Haymarket, Fenway, and Resevoir to name a few. -Nick
In a city where building codes require a structure to withstand a certain magnitude of earthquake, and where they receive numerous tremors per day, that sounds like BS to me.
Enjoy everyone, got lots of night shots while enjoying (and getting stuck as well) riding the loop. Before viewing, maximize the open browser window.
Is the page supposed to resize the window like that? I find that resizing to be most annoying.
I also had to manually reorganize the picture sequence since the last photo I took would be the first picture in the album if I failed to do so.
Thank you!
There are two versions.
Version one is the 106 mile system including the under construction New York Avenue station and the Blue line G route extension. (59.6 KB GIF)
Version two has the same as above plus the Tyson, Dulles Loudoun county Silver line M Route as shown in Draft Environmental Impact Statement. (70.6 KB GIF)
Both include track schematics of the of all of the yards and yard leads.
For those that have my cad version there are a number of changes to the surface and elevated section on the Blue Line G route extension
John
You make it so easy to read and understand.
Thanks,
Mark
I cant take total credit for the layout. Specially the base 106 mile system schematic. If you strip away the station names, show all the platforms as island, make all the tracks straight regardless of track centers, take all of the curves out, make all of the tracks white on a black background using ASCII characters and cut into four equal frames. You would be looking at the four rear projection screens that are used to display the model board in master control in the basement of WMATA headquarters.
John
It's a shame you can't go downstairs any more and watch the screens like you used to be able to do in the early days.
Mark
WMATA Operation Control Center
John
Am I the only one thinks that it highlights the fact that at least the trunk lines should have been minimum 3 tracks?
And... minimum four tracks, I guarantee you that much. Not only would you be able to run more trains, but there would be possibilities for Blue/Orange, Blue/Yellow, and Green/Yellow meets instead of always needing to exit and wait between Rosslyn/Stadium-Armory, Pentagon/King Street, or Mt Vernon Sq/L'Enfant Plaza. Think of the meets as something like here in Philly; you can often enough jump from the Broad Street Line Local to Express or Ridge trains at the island platform stops.
Of course, that would require they either have all dual island platforms on the trunk lines, or twin sides, with an island in the center and crossovers... I doubt WMATA wold mind holding trains for transferring.
Mind you, the Red Line would be totally exempt, still running with two tracks... the trunk is Grosvenor/Silver Spring, which isn't shared, that was just the original line for a long time. (and Grosvenor has a great deal of commuters drive in from off I-495/I-270, while Silver Spring has them come from Georgia Avenue, East-West Highway, Colesville Roac, and I-495). Because of the pocket tracks, the short trips don't actually interfere with Shady Grove/Glenmont runs.
with the Silver Line coming, the old Blue trunk (Roslyn/Stadium) needs 4 tracks... LOrange and ilver on one pair, and Blue on the other... I'd opt for Blue on the outer tracks, as the Orange/Silver trunk eastbound would duck under the outbound Blue.
Headway Changes happen around
0700 0945 1545 1900 at Metro Center Red line
0650 0950 1530 1830 at Metro Center Blue Orange lines
0640 0925 1535 1845 at Gallery Place Green Yellow lines
There are a couple of runs that are dispatched from the terminals on 8 minute headways at the beginning and ends of each peek period.
I pulled this from a "headway sheet report" dated 06 26 2000
John
Red - Shady Grove-Glenmont every 6' peak, 12' mid-day
Red - Grosvenor-Silver Spring every 6' peak, 12' mid-day
Combined Red services at Metro Center - 3' peak, 6' mid-day
Thanks to John for the help.
Just a nit pick, but instead of Surface and Elevated you should use the terms Superway and Way (or Causeway).
There is a track diagram in "The Story of the Metro". The extension track plans probably came from the EIS. It's quite a lot of work, and I am impressed that someone did it. Well done.
AEM7
So, let's review the words:
Subway, superway, causeway, intraway, extraway, mesoway, interway
Well, First off I walked about 60% of the system during construction. Did a lots and lots of field work. Have in my possession working construction drawings for about half dozen stations, and have a copy of one the original train control system manuals.
Just a nit pick, but instead of Surface and Elevated you should use the terms Superway and Way (or Causeway).
If I may use the words of a very famous aircraft engineer named Kelly Johnson, KISS, Keep It Simple Stupid.
John
No you may not.
Traditionally WMATA and other transit agencies have used surface, subway and elevated to describe their right of ways. Early on WMATA used aerial in place of elevated to get away from the vision of a New York, Chicago or Philadelphia elevated rapid transit railroad.
On one of the earlier version of the WMATA track schematic that I never published I subdivided the surface right of way in subcategorize;
Surface
Surface on fill
Surface on retained fill
Surface in open cut
Surface retained open cut
I even subdivided the type of tunnels;
Cut and cover
Shield bore through earth cast in place concrete lining
Shield bore through earth segmented cast steel lining
Shield bore through earth segmented cast concrete lining
Machine bored through rock cast in place concrete lining
Blast bored through rock cast in place concrete lining
Blast bored through rock shotcrete lining
Sunken tube
I moved a way from the subcategorize for simplicity sake.
John
Have you considered this sort of solution:
SURFACE: Green
Surface
Surface on fill
Surface on retained fill
Surface in open cut
Surface retained open cut
TUNNEL: Blue
Cut and cover
Shield bore through earth cast in place concrete lining
Shield bore through earth segmented cast steel lining
Shield bore through earth segmented cast concrete lining
Machine bored through rock cast in place concrete lining
Blast bored through rock cast in place concrete lining
Blast bored through rock shotcrete lining
Sunken tube
That way you keep the simplicity of one color being tunnel and another surface, whilst the nuances are still reflected.
SURFACE: Green
Surface
Surface on fill
Surface on retained fill
Surface in open cut
Surface retained open cut
TUNNEL: Blue
Cut and cover
Shield bore through earth cast in place concrete lining
Shield bore through earth segmented cast steel lining
Shield bore through earth segmented cast concrete lining
Machine bored through rock cast in place concrete lining
Blast bored through rock cast in place concrete lining
Blast bored through rock shotcrete lining
Sunken tube
That way you keep the simplicity of one color being tunnel and another surface, whilst the nuances are still reflected.
That is basically what I did however with different colors. Shades of brown for cut and cover and shield bore earth tunnels, shades of gray for the rock tunnel types, Shades of blue for fill, retained fill and elevated, Shade of black and dark gray for surface, open cut and retained cut.
The problem were.
One; Color transition from the various right of way segment to the next did not provide enough contracts between the colors using a single pixel wide line.
Two; Some of the segments between the stations have any number of right of way type that their were not enough pixils between the station to show all of the types without making the total size of the schematic bigger.
Three; Because this is a schematic and not a scale map the length of right of way segment type would be distorted in relation to longer and shorter segment type.
One day I will do a true scale track map that will show all of the right of way segment types, ejector pumps, fan, vent and blowout shafts, traction power substation locations, traction power tiebraker stations locations, third rail brakes, fan and vent shafts with emergency exit stairs, signal number, and AAR switch numbers just to name some of the details.
John
WOW!!! That'd be amazingly cool! Hope the Department of Fatherland Security don't notice!
You may have heard me make reference to the CAD version of the schematic in thread. Some here have a copy of that schematic. That version has the signal numbers at all main line interlockings and four of the yards as well as switch motor numbers on all main line interlockings. As for AAR switch numbers (frog angles) that one is pretty simple to figure out. WMATA uses standard angle switch frogs. No custom track work. All crossover interlockings use AAR # 10 frogs (5.71) The "Y" switches on the ends of pocket tracks both underground and on elevated and the west end of center track K3 at West Falls Church (K06) are # 5 frogs (11.31). Both are shown as 45 on the schematic posted here. The switch at route junctions use AAR # 14 frogs (4.09). Shown as 26.5 on the schematic posted here. There are a selected number of switches in yards that are AAR #8 (7.13) however most are AAR #10.
Most of the fan shafts have a minimum of 3 5' 1.52m diameter 50,000 CFM fans. The fans are capable of being reversed. Not all shafts have emergency exit stairs. Generally the first fan shaft beyond a station will have an emergency exit in it. If there are three shafts between station the middle one will be a vent shaft and will not have an emergency exit in it. In stations with one surface entrance the blowout shaft at the end of the station farthest from the surface entrance will have emergency exit in it. Some stations have emergency exit in the blowout shaft at both ends of the stations.
John
I downloaded them too.
Feel free to keep a copy for yourself for personal reference. All I ask is that you dont redistribute or publish it elsware.
John
One criticism for SPV maps: they do not show the highway system.
AEM7
Any body with pencil and paper and a farecard could create just about the same results. Frankly I dont see it as a security risk. Now if I it was detailed with where all of the fan, vent and blowout shafts, ejectors pumps, and traction power substation are that might be another story.
John
So how long have we had since 9/11/01? It's been more than 2 years, right? Do you think the same guy that harrassed the webmaster is still working the same job? He's probably been either fired or promoted by now, or maybe he got fed up with living in DC and moved elsewhere. Or maybe they were using a contractor for their web security and the "special funding" after 9/11 ran out already, so now they are not policing the web anymore.
Do you understand how public organizations work?
AEM7
Dave has to make his own decision to restore the map. If I were running this website, I would probably not have restored the map, but I would have made the map available by other means. For example, I might have provided a link to a map on a Swedish web server. Or I might make it such that a SubTalk handle is REQUIRED for access to the map. In general, the police types don't hassle people as long as you have some resemblence of security, even though you and I know anyone can get a Subtalk handle. The point is that when you apply for a Subtalk handle, you have to include your full name, and that way you become somewhat accountable. A potential terrorist would not want that kind of e-paper trail associated with their downloading of the WMATA track map.
AEM7
I believe my assertion that WMATA is no longer LIKELY to hassle people for posting a track map. I don't believe my ALLEGED assertion according to YOU that WMATA will ABSOLUTELY not hassle anyone who posts a track map.
No one likes you. Now go to the corner and cry.
AEM7
David,
Take a look at what I said in responses to Mountain Maryland and to steveboatti . And I have to agree with what aem7 said.
John
This is a little detail that I think gives the viewer a better idea how thing really look in the field.
You might check the spelling of Collage Park and Alexandra Yard.
Duly noted and corrected. Thank you for proofing.
John
Quaker Lane? I never saw that before.
Mark
Quaker Lane was/is on the CAD version. Quaker Lane along with Potomac Yard is one of the two ascending numbered RTUs that doesnt have a station within its control area.
John
You are quite welcome.
Like I said in post.
Feel free to keep a copy for yourself for personal reference. All I ask is that you dont redistribute or publish it elsewhere.
John
Guess where this photo was taken?
Extra Credit: Not only identify the station, but also in which direction and track was the redbird going! For this part of the puzzle you need to know this clue, it was taken Wednesday night at 9:30 PM.
Good luck.
In order for fonts to display, they must be on the computer that is trying to display them. Your message is sent in PLAIN TEXT, with the instruction to show it using font so and such. Absent that font the other computer will pick out a (usually its default) font to display the text in.
Elais
This is the coolest thing ever!!!
The next picture will be much more difficult.
::) eLIAS
Koi
Koi
DID YOU NOT SEE THE POST WITH THE SUBJECT "WINNER?"
Check them out!!
Hey! And there are some other great pics as well...like this one.
Very cool photos, especially the 1st and 3rd ones.
Mark
Mark
-end of pointless post-
Mark
As for the pic, very nice.
Mark
You get used to the train noise, and even come to miss it at night when you are sleeping elsewhere.
Happy photographing!
Photoshop Elements is the ultimate low-cost solution. I highly reccomend that. If you want to do almost anything to a photo, PSE can do it.
You could also use the software included with your camera. It should do the job for almost anything the casual user needs to do.
Mark
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid93/pe0d94476040ae610d7a1b4a43a102857/fa41d3ac.jpg.orig.jpg
In the train maintenance shoppe: Would you like this lovely train painted lavender or puce?
Have since uninstalled it.
You should always take your pictures at the highest resolution possible on your camera (sometimes noted as "fine" or "super-fine")
These are your pictures that you keep on your disk drive or burn onto cd, print, etc. They are your "masters"
When you post your pictures on line you can learn to use one of the photo-editing programs(you got some kind of program with your camera I hope?) to reduce the resolution to something lower - this is known as JPEG Compression, and you can reduce the file size of a photo that started out at 1 or 2 megabytes down to a file size of 70 kilobytes, without much loss of detail. You can then post this picture on-line and you will not be using so much space
good luck with your new camera
(sometimes you have to save the file using "save-as" and then choose the .jpg extension. Not every picture type can be compressed. JPG is one that can, maybe the software won't show the option until the picture is saved as jpg format.)
if not, you will find a good photo-editing software package to use and you will be able to do all this
best of luck
Nice shot. You sure are set up to get dramatic shots. Does the sun go over any time that you could get a good glint off the steel, or maybe a silhouette?
LEARN HOW TO COMPRESS YOUR PHOTOS!!!!!
I am not trying to be mean, just trying to make sure you listen. 897k for a single photo is excessive in anyone's book. It wastes everybodies bandwidth and most people who still use dialup won't even bother to look. Moreover, if your hosting site has some sort of transfer limit, you'll be eating excess charges or page unavailable errors faster than you can say Redbird.
You need to get a standard image editor and learn how to process your photos down to 100-200k for web consumption. The masters can be in whatever size you want and you should save them somewhere safe, but please please PLEASE, process the photos you want people to actually look at.
Your 4? MP digital camera is probably spitting out pics at 2000x1500, which is the same as mine. You need to reside the pics to at least 50% of that, probably 40 or 45%. Moreover, you should crop out unecessary portions of the frame and then make sure you use a reasonable level of JPEG compression. Usually 70-80% of maximum quality is good. JPEG compression should be under an "options" bar when you save your image as a JPEG. Resize and crop are standard in any image editor.
So...keep taking pics, just make sure you process them afterwards b4 uploading them. You'll make life easier for everyone.
Newer graphics programs compress a lot better than older ones. I used to use PSP3.0 for a long time, until I noticed it was giving me 400kb pics that are only 100kb anywhere else.
It took me a while to figure why my pictures were huge compared to other peoples until I figured that out.
Neither do I, anymore, since I just don't have the time.
What does that mean?
Yes. For the past 8 years now. If I here "Do They Know It's Christmas" again I may become homicidal.
Thank you for putting that stupid song in my head. Now I'll hear it all night!
Koi
Maybe you can get yourself a scanner (radio) for Christmas, and you'll be able to hear the motormen of those trains loud and clear as they talk to the command center.
I believe anyone who like to watch trains, will like to hear the two way radio traffic as well. I always did.
Look at us! Those of us not complaining and being let through for free are being screwed out of $5!
Look at the Park & Riders getting screwed!
Station B at night.
View of the free area from the $5 area.
One of my favorite T/O's at the helm!
Click HERE for the rest of the photos from yesterday.
You mean those who complained were "being let in/out for free"?
What a failure... If that becomes an everyday issue, the PANYNJ should really think about lowering the fare. I wonder if the same thing is happening at Jamaica.
The shuttle bus for the JFK Express used to cost $2 if you were not using the JFK Express. At the time, a token was $1.
That's what I'm saying. And they are totally justified in complaining because a free service was replaced with a $5 service and that is totally unjustified. I'm sure they will only allowing free passage to complainers for the first few days.
I once went to JFK when the Rockaway line was shuttle-bussed. Between the exit at Euclid and the shuttle bus stop we were swarmed with car service and dollar-van "pimps".
How do those thigns work. Is it some automatic thing that retracts?
If so I guess those are great for the handicapped and morbidly obese.
Yes. You can also beat the fare by retracting them yourself, but then an alarm goes off so you'll have to run like hell if you don't want to get caught.
Or wait for somebody to swipe in the other direction and run through before he has a chance.
I saw two people accidentally farebeat into the subway at Howard Beach. They dipped their card in the AutoGate slot, which only accepts specially encoded cards. Then they pulled open the gate, which for some reason was unlocked. I don't think anybody else noticed.
BTW, excellent photos. I looked at all of them.
Thanx!
That trains power by Santa himself.
Bill "Newkirk"
My train arrived ontime, but left a few late due to a car inspection. I got a window seat, but the train then went SRO with all the college kids traveling. Out past POINT we came to a stop along side a train stopped in the opposite direction and I believe we exchanged some person or equipment...I couldn't see. There were also two SRS cars on Amtrak, one at Wilmington, the other at Edgewood. We stopped at Newark, discharging accross both tracks 1 and A. We also stopped at the lo-level SEPTA track at Wilmington for some inexplicable reason.
I caught an R2 into CC at 30th St. Since R1's turn into R2's I got to ride in one of the 2 Silverliner III "complaint" cars that were outfitted to DVARP "standards". These are used on the airport runs for their 2-2 plush flipable seating, wide isles and large luggage racks. Oh, there is some special instruction for the CC tunnels that Rule 290 signals are to be treated as Rule 291.
DVARP is the Delaware Valley Assocn. of Rail Passengers. They are Philly's answer to the Straphanger's Campaign. Their flagship complain is the width of SEPTA RR seats and how they do not meet the needs presented by an average Philadephian's ass width. The complaint cars have padded, flipable 2-2 seating instead of hard, fixed direction 2-3 seating. They also have luggage racks and other amenities.
One arriving on Amtrak needs to take SEPTA into Center City from 30th St. Its a 2.2 mile walk to 8th and Market and I ain't walking. The Regional Rail trains provide a free service b/t 30th and Market East.
Chuck
I heard somewhere that the Original NEC Improvement Plan EIS of 1979 considered several ideas for routing the Boston-New Haven electric service, including one plan that would branch off the Shore Line at Providence and cross CT on an old ROW (via Plainfield and Williamantic) to reach Hartford, and thence by the Inland Route to New Haven. Another scheme would have elecrified the Franklin Branch of the MBTA Commuter Rail, reopened the alignment via Mechanicsville, Williamnatic and Middletown), and reached New Have that way, but it would have by-passed all the important urban centres en-route.
Does anyone have any more details?
AEM7
Show me 1 MOD photo which showed a transit car PACKED FULL like a can of sardines, bub.
(For future reference, ever think to ASK SOMEONE ELSE attending the same trip
to GET AN ADDITIONAL TICKET for you?? It works wonders on the peace of the mind..... and the board.)
1Counselor9
PS... $1 to heypaul for introducing me to the ASK SOMEONE ELSE act.
P = (N*2)*(GDP of the USA/the population of the USA) + $5.95 + tax
See you on the "REDBIRDS" today!
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
Maybe Columbus Circle had fluorescent lighting, too but I couldn't swear to it. But all those other stations looked the home of the Munsters with those dinky little incandescent bulbs.
Also, the 179th Street-Hillside Avenue terminal station of the IND Queens line, which opened on December 10, 1950, also had fluorescent lighting from the beginning. Based upon what it is in my massive photo print archives, the IND 59th Street-Columbus Circle station still had incandescent light blubs in the late 1950's.
As for the IND Grant Avenue station, which was the last new subway station ever to be built and open in the borough of Brooklyn, was actually the SIXTH station of the IND division (opened on April 29, 1956) to be introduced with fluorescent lighting. The next stations to be open afterward for the IND with fluorescent lighting, but under the platform canopys however, were all for the Rockaway Line: Howard Beach, Broad Channel, Rockaway Park (June 28, 1956); Mott Avenue-Far Rockaway (January 16, 1958) and Aqueduct Racetrack (circa 1959).
-William A. Padron
["Fulton-Euclid Av."]
By the way, did 76th Street have fluorescent lighting?
At least the old cement block tile on the 4th Ave Line, and what was removed from Broadway had some saving graces, as opposed to the pure utility of the Lex extensions, like the accented colors where the name signs were). They didn't even attempt to match the rest of the station.
I actually liked the look of the Broadway Line's cement block tile, and the 4th Ave line; it's the fact that the old mosaics were covered that made me hate it, not that I thought it was such a bad design. I would have approved if it was used as original tile on, for example, if the 2nd Ave Subway was built in the 70's. It would have reflected the period in which the stations were built.
I especially remember 81st Street and Central Park West (museum/planetarium) and Metropolitan Avenue on the G line in this regard. What were they lit with, five-watt bulbs ?
Status as of 12/19/2003 at 07:35 PM
NOTICE: Advisory Board is updated between the hours of 6am and 12 midnight.
[Advisory Icon] Dec 19, 2003 07:35:01 PM
Due to lack of equipment in New York, NJCL # 3513 was annulled. Passengers to #3283 which is operating 20 minutes late. Due to lack of equipment NEC # 3979 was also annulled.
[Alert Icon] Dec 19, 2003 07:24:55 PM
NJCL #3283 up to 20 min. delay making local stops.
[Alert Icon] Dec 19, 2003 07:23:40 PM
NJCL 3513 annulled. Passengers to 3283.
[Alert Icon] Dec 19, 2003 07:00:38 PM
NEC #3898 passengers to 3768.
[Alert Icon] Dec 19, 2003 06:59:34 PM
NEC #3898 -25 min. delay -LINDEN-disabled train ahead.
Why would there be a lack of equipment to have a train annulled? I thought they would have spare trains? How was there a lack of equipment? Can anyone explain? Thanks!
MetroB
If during a peak priod you get hit with some problems and have to quick turn equipment to get a train out due to an equipment failure...when the train you quick turned's slot pops up and the OOS equipment is still bad ordered you might have to annull.
Sometimes LIRR will operate 8 car trains in stead of 10 or 12 car trains, and people will be uncomfortable, but with some flexing the schedules can be met.
Not so NJT or rather not so any diesel powered train be it NJT, LIRR, MN or AMTK. No engine, no train.
Elias
NJT is far too rinky-dinky an operation to do that. They have no operating plan or regular track assignments in Penn Station, have crews and equipment that aren't interchangeable on all lines. (i.e. MU's can longer run south of South Amboy.
I don't think that having extra equipment available is wasting equipment. The management has to expect that a certain amount of equipment will be unavailable as part of the normal course of events. I'd rather have fewer trains if it means that one has a greater chance of not having his train late or even cancelled because of a lack of equipment. Better not to have the train on the schedule in the first place than to run an unrealistic schedule. When I go to board a train-- I expect it to be there, on time. If that means that spare equipment is necessary, that's what should be available.
Annular Trains when they get around to it? : )
Would have to be a mighty long train to be able to do that...
Never rode on AMTK, eh?
"On Time" means within about six hours.
Elias
Take the train to Jamaica, and fly to Jamaica.
From Amsterdam Avenue to Amsterdam
Daily News link
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/local/story/147331p-130081c.html
And ignore the fact that it's not a digital gizmo so there's some contrasting from the scanner.
I guess you can always touch that up, which doens't help in an actual print though.
Wonder if i can get a better shot on film, the scanner still kinda sucks on those pics.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The MTA got praise for its extensive community outreach, but criticism for not having enough public feedback mechanisms (for example, as AirTrain had with its Jamaica office). A fair criticism, actually.
Does this mean you have returned to the living by moving back to Bayside, or did you just fly in for the press conference?
Da Hui
Da Hui
For a cash payment by me, paid by you for 20 bucks, who can tell me whats wrong with this sentence.
R-7's DO NOT GO ON THE IRT!
No way an R7 or R110A would make it to the 239th Street Yard. All the platforms on the IRT would have to be rebuilt after that move.
avid
Julian
Da Hui
Da Hui
Was the 2 voice saying "Bronx bound 2 local train" or was it the 5 chick?
Da Hui
til next time
What is this SmartLink thing...it sounds like it might be for all MAss Transit System.
At one time it was also proposed that, if you used your SmarTrip pass after 9:30 weekdays or any weekend day, it would never charge more than the cost of a 1-day pass for rail travel, which to me was brilliant, because I never can decide in advance if I will be travelling enough to buy a 1-day pass of not. Of course, it has never been implemented!!!! I assume that the software people would easily know how to implement that, since the card itself only contains your user number. Everything else is done on a central server. My guess is management thought it would be too useful, and therefore, didn't implement it.
I think those things are always for luggage and standees.
How long is the trip anyway?
Does anyone know if SmartLink will work on the subways and the PATH.
That's why there are no through trips from Howard Beach to Jamaica.
By the way, I thought they were going to try to run it along the Canarsie Line.
Well, my first idea is a good one.
I'll supply the 'cubans', and the flares (in case we need to do an S.O.S. from deep in the Rockaways -- if we get snowed in).
Wendy's, Baskin Robbins/Dunkin Donuts, a diner at Newport/Beach Channel Drive, a few other eateries are there. Duane Reade is also across from the diner if you need to buy more analog film! LOL
Maybe Lincoln will wear pants instead of shorts this time.
I continue to believe that the best argument for the SAS is equity. Folks on the East Side of Manhatan probably pay more taxes, in excess of services received, than the residents of any comparatively sized area anywhere in the world. They don't need much, and can afford to pay much, so that isn't necessarily unfair. But if they are to be regarded as something other than victims, they should get the one thing they do need -- a more comfortable ride to work.
______________________________________________________________________
(New York-AP) -- A new study estimates that building a subway line along Second Avenue would create more than 23 (M) billion in economic gains.
The Regional Plan Association's report contradicts a study by another group that said the project's costs would outweigh its benefits.
The new report says the subway line could be completed in 10 to 12 years. It says the project would ``send a ripple of economic activity through the economy like nothing we've seen this generation.''
But a conflicting study released last month by the Partnership for New York City said the project would take 17 years to complete.
That report said the new line would cost $15-point-three (B) billion to build but would create only $12-point-six (B) billion in economic development benefits.
The Regional Plan Association charged that the Partnership for New York City report ``draws many inaccurate conclusions.''
Several city Democrats, including City Council Speaker Gifford Miller, held a press conference yesterday in support of the Regional Plan Association study.
(Copyright 2003 by The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved.)
While I agree with you about the equity for the UES residents, I would add that building East Side Access without doing something about distributing the extra people who will arrive at GCT is ludicrous.
Certainly the improved transportation to the many institutions along the far East Side would be a plus.
Even more if adjusted for inflation. I think that's the nightmare everyone in the country has about a major project like the SAS.
Too bad we don't have the Speaker of the House. Too bad for Chicago that the Speaker of the House doesn't care about transit. They should be thinking about building tunnels to have the commuter trains run through, and replacing the Loop with a new four track subway.
Why don't they just take their history and flush it down the LOOp
I assume Subtalk is going to be quiet today, as well as tomorrow. It will pick up in the evening when people post their:
"MoD trip photos" threads
What exactly is a MOD trip? Any G/O's involved?
Okay, I'm done...
AEM7
No need for GPS. As I mentioned in a different thread, the Rohr car when delivered by the manufacturer had an automatic station announce system that used a 4 track tape cartridge player. The tape was queued and started by the program station stop command part of the train control system. The hardware is already in place. Its just a matter as you say of gitting "all the bugs out".
John
Shakespeare, Richard III
Thanks,
Chuck
Elias
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Just about what you would expect it to be: http://www.northlandz.com/
Elias
(a) In the opening credits - they chase a suspect inside what looks like an R27 (blue interior) - any ideas of vehicle type.(or where)
(b) Lacey often (sometimes) complains about her subway trip to the Precinct from Queens - which line or route would she take (there are hints about Queens Boulevard so I expect its the E or the F)
I can now die happy if anyone can answer these !
B) Probably no particular neighborhood in Queens or train she takes to/from work. Just like in other shows they sprinkle hints about Queens locations. But they are spread over too wide an area for a local person.
The driver of a Nissan pickup had to be cut from his truck this morning after he turned left in front of a northbound train at the intersection of Main and Alabama downtown. The driver, Joseph Kittrell, was taken to the hospital, where his condition was unknown today. The accident was at least the third involving a Metro train and a private vehicle since the agency began testing trains on the tracks.
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Now before you guys go around blaming METRO[;)], I read a story recently about a "trend" that downtowns are turning their one way streets into two way streets. Why? Because, "Suburbian drivers are mystified by one way streets". True story and quote.
I'm afraid we're dumbing down our infrastructure and getting no good out of it. I vote for CDL type licensing of cars instead.
Was the light rail right-of-way originally a little used freight line that people were used to crossing more or less at will?
More important, are there ordinary traffic signals prohibiting turns or crossing when a light rail train is approaching?
My question is, how many signs do you really need. should we put up a giant mirror at the lights to see if a train is behind you? This is approaching the realm of either questioning authority, not being able to read, or being plain dumb.
These drivers should be paying the costs of damages, even if it's from their insurance.
What you say is true regarding road design, but since when is a no left turn, or a red left turn light being a suggestion only? If they don't have them already, they need to get rid of yield on left turn, and do a left-only light. But I don't know Texas driving culture, only my own.
But I don't know Texas driving culture, only my own
Driving culture really has nothing to do with the fact that you ought to stop, look and listen when you see shiny rails going across the road. What happened to trains having priority at rail crossings…? That’s a federal rule if I am not mistaken…?
These drivers should be paying the costs of damages, even if it's from their insurance
I agree two hundred percent. They violate the crossing when a train approaches, they are at fault and they have to bear the responsibility. (Not unless they want their taxes going up to pay for gates at a mere LRT crossing…? but that’s already being proposed for the HBLRT in the Harborside section of Jersey City.)
Driving culture creates tons of accidents with the old people from up north and transplants all the time. Light turns yellow, if you're five feet fromt he intersection you DO NOT SLAM THE BRAKES(literally). Now i have to watch accidents everyday, and stay really far back from the guy in front out of fear. You're supposed keep going. It's unsafe to have locals going and rejects stopping, now you got rear-end accidents with lots of force. That's driving culture. Funny thing is, New Yorkers are the only ones to pick up on this. They like to assimiliate all our bad driving habits, so they start driving like everyone else. Now if only everyone was this aware.
What people ought to do, and what they actually do, are not sufficient when you get into situations where things go crunch. People ought not put to "push" changing lights, ought not to jam themselves into subway doors, ought not to get off an escalator and stand there wondering where they are while people behind them are bunching up.
Long Island is grade crossing city, with lots of trains bigger, heavier and faster than your light rail line, thundering through crossings right beside roads, etc., yet (not withstanding the biggies that make the headlines) has relatively few grade crossing accidents.
One thing they do is to control traffic lights where there are crossings adjacent to intersections. A typical example is the grade crossing adjacent to Windsor Avenue and Union Boulevard in Brightwaters. When a train is approaching, not only do the gates go down and the lights flash, but the traffic lights for the crossing street are set to red for the duration. On the parallel street, a folding standard "No Left Turn" sign opens up so people will not make a left turn into the path of the train.
Hey, it works, we haven't had three cars crunched in a few weeks.
But if they're caught on camera whilst on the revoked list, you have a perfect way to fine them for jumping the red light and send them to gaol for driving without a valid licence.
And I say put trippers on the cars!
: ) Elias
Now, now, you wouldn't want them to get tripped blocking the main line, would you?
Actually isn't it one of Newton's laws. A body in motion... etc etc.
Elias
Second Law: The acceleration of a body is directly proportional to the applied external force. (F=M*A, including vector sums).
Third Law: Action and Reaction are equal and opposite.
Maybe they dont teach much physics in Texas. Certainly, from my experience teaching Scuba, it is possible to graduate high school in the USA without knowing Archimedes Principle, any of the Gas Laws (P*V = N*R*T), Daltons Law of Partial Pressures, Lenzs Law (sin(i)/sin(r) = refractive index), Henrys law of gas absorbtion in liquids.
Thats what I know they dont know. Unfortunately, Im sure theres mroe.
And what's wrong with that? It's been possible for ages over here to leave school being able to conjugate Greek verbs ending in -mi, but know no physics whatsoever other than some hazy memory that Aristotle might have written something about it!
Personally, I dont know any Greek verbs ending in -mi: all those I know end in -w. (This applies to modern Greek, which doesnt have an infinitive; verbs are referenced by the first person singular indiciative).
Interestingly, there is an article in the current Economist about Latin.
However, when I was at school in England in the early 1970s, it was necessary at least to pass Maths and one science at O-Level to get into universtiy. Perhaps times have changed: certainly I could well believe that the current President of the USA would sign a bill declaring that p=3, because it made calculations easier.
Classical Greek is so much more fun... having one word "eimi", which depending on how you stress it means either "I am" or "I shall go", among other things keeps you on your toes...
which doesnt have an infinitive;
Eugh - the "na" + future construction - I HATE it!!!
Interestingly, there is an article in the current Economist about Latin.
I think Quomodo Invidiosulus Nomine Grinchus Christi Natalem Abrogaverit is great!!! And the reminder of the Romanes eunt domus sketch is always fun!
However, when I was at school in England in the early 1970s, it was necessary at least to pass Maths and one science at O-Level to get into universtiy. Perhaps times have changed:
You still effectively need that, but the exams have been made easier. I have all 3 sciences at GCSE (1 A* and 2 As) and I know very little about any of them.
certainly I could well believe that the current President of the USA would sign a bill declaring that p=3, because it made calculations easier.
Nah, they should just strike everything harder than Pythagoras' theorem off the paper... and allow calculators!
Actually, I think it adds a degree of precision to the language which English misses:
I dont want to go:
1. Qelw na mh pawI actively want to be somewhere else.
2. Den Qelw na pawI couldnt care where we go.
In standard English, the interpretation is 1, there is no way to express 2 without extra adverbs.
PS: Apologies for no accents, its the best I can do without special fonts/unicode.
PPS: No apologies for no breathings. Its one of the aspects of the language that I like that Dhmotikh dropped from Kaqareuousa.
When i'm driving at 30mph, 40mph, or 50-60mph, and some dumb you know what pulls out in front of me making a right turn, do I blame myself knowing I would've plowed through her if i was driving anything heavier? No. ANd neither should metro.
I wonder what their findings will be.
I'm sorry that this current idiot had to be cut out of his truck, but maybe he'll learn a lesson in driving safely around light rail trains in an urban area.
Baltimore had no accidents with errant drivers during the testing phase in late 1991/early 1992.
It was after the cars had been running in regular service that the car vs. LRV follies began. Currently the score is motor vehicles 0, LRV's 22. At 92 feet and 68 tons per articulated LRV, you DO NOT want to mess with them. Big, white, heavy with a big coupler sticking out each end.
Last one was six months ago. The 22 victories are over a 11 year period.
For those who have never seen the movie, the plane ia a small (50 passenger) jet aircraft. Long antenna on the nose and tail. The 2 engines are at the tail but the tail is conventional and not of the type on a DC-9 etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sud_Caravelle
As the movie is not new, I'd suggest that the aircraft in it could be a fake mocup, or a BAC-111. The BAC-111 is very similar looking (to non-aircraft enthusiasts) as the DC-9 series. (Today's CRJ700's look very much like a shrunken MD90....but that's too new for the movie.)
For those of you more experieced with searching this site,
is there a way to search for photos of subway car interiors?
Specifically, I am looking for cars currently in use, not the discontinued cars.
Thanks for your help!
Sincerely,
Lynne
And scroll down towards the bottom of the webpage.
Alternative? Click your mouse on the home page for the section "Rolling Stock", then move it over to the middle where it says "Car Interiors". From there, scroll down to the bottom of the page to see the current rolling stock.
Hope it helps!!!
-William A. Padron
["Fulton-Lefferts Blvd."]
That did help!
Now I need to find pictures of Subway Platforms, including signage!
As for yard assignments, again, cars are assigned to shops and not to yards or to lines/routes. Look in the archives to find out which cars are assigned where -- every few days the question comes up and every few days it's answered.
David
You seem to want the job, Douce... feed the boy! :)
Then after 32 hours pass, he'll FORGET he got an answer and ask again
like it's a NEW question that just came up...
Why should I get bent out of shape?
Just give him a simple answer to his repeated questions.
This way he gets angry and upset and annoyed.
Not me!
Up until now I haven't bothered to say anyhting but it's getting beyond a joke. And I may have my say over a few other annoying topics/posters on this board...... Are you listening Chap11, Jerky Mike, to name but a couple?
Chap11 is pretty annoying. It's a good thing he doesn't come round no more.
And who's Jerky Mike? Or is your geographic impediment getting to you?
Some say yes, others say no. For the word on the street, tune in at 11.
Isn't chapter11 now sir ronald of Mcdonald?
Maybe if someone gives him a simple straightforward answer, maybe he'll shut up.
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I've tried it already calling all the names I can think of..it won't work....Look at BusTalk.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Once they are in the yards they are usually mopped and maintained if needed. I'd say the same thing in the '70's.
Cities can muzzle train horns
This has some good general info stuff with facts and figures.
Full text:
Cities can muzzle train horns
By Jim Stratton
Sentinel Staff Writer
December 19, 2003
The trains come through about once every Maitland City Council meeting.
Some council member will be pontificating about an issue facing the town when, in the distance, the blast of a locomotive horn pierces City Hall.
Within a few seconds the scream is overwhelming, drowning out even the loudest politician. Council members pause, wait until the train passes, and then pick up in midsentence.
"Some fights you can't win," said Mayor Sascha Rizzo.
But new federal regulations may offer some relief for Central Florida communities bisected by rail lines.
The Federal Railroad Administration says it will allow communities that put other safeguards in place to ban horn blowing at railroad crossings.
The idea, an FRA spokesman said, is to create some flexibility, allowing communities to work with the FRA and the state to craft safety plans tailored to their cities and train traffic patterns.
Today, many state's laws generally prohibit so-called "whistle bans" or make them prohibitively expensive.
"What we heard was, 'Do not give us a one-size-fits-all approach,' " said Warren Flatau. "This lets communities help decide what works."
The rule could make life a little quieter throughout greater Orlando. Currently, about a dozen times a day trains rumble through communities stretching from Kissimmee to Sanford.
Crossing intersections
Hauling everything from Twinkies to lumber, they cross scores of intersections -- more than 40 in Orlando alone -- and each time, they must begin blowing their horns a quarter mile before they reach the crossing.
To some, like Bridget Roehl, an office manager in Kissimmee, the noise is barely a distraction. In fact, she worries wrecks would increase were it not for the horns.
Longwood's city administrator said it's not a problem there, either.
"We never get complaints about tooting horns," said John Drago.
But for every Bridget Roehl or John Drago, there's a Barbara DeVane or Sascha Rizzo.
DeVane, a Winter Park city commissioner, lives three blocks from a set of train tracks. She said the noise was "terrible" and called the FRA decision a "wonderful Christmas present."
Rizzo, the Maitland mayor, agreed.
The horns are "loud and obnoxious," he said. "It's a huge issue for us."
An issue Orlando resident Mark Montgomery has learned to cope with. Montgomery and his family have lived on Nottingham Street -- just north of Florida Hospital -- for six years.
His home backs up to tracks owned by CSX Transportation. When the trains come by, he says, their whistles can drown out the television in the family room. It's worse in the back yard.
"It's extremely loud," he said. "You've got to put your hands over your ears."
Issue heats up
Just a little south in downtown Orlando, trains have cut through for decades. But as apartment and condominium towers sprout like weeds, the noise the trains make is likely to become more of an issue.
Jim Kimbler, the city's chief planner, said Orlando is interested in the new regulations but that any final decision will be driven by cost.
"We're just beginning to look at it," Kimbler said. "We'd have to determine what our financial responsibility might be."
Those costs could vary widely.
Costs vary
Installing median barriers -- to prevent drivers from shifting lanes to get around a gate -- might cost $12,000 to $20,000 depending on how many were added. But installing four-quadrant gates, which block all access to the rail line when a train goes through, can cost more than $400,000.
Awhile back, Kissimmee officials tried a different approach. They asked CSX engineers to ease off the horn a bit in the morning. It worked for a while, but now the noise has returned.
Historically, money has historically kept Florida communities from pursuing whistle bans, though Daytona Beach has a nighttime ban in place.
Unlike some states, Florida allows communities to impose quiet zones provided their crossings meet certain state safety standards. But that has proved too expensive, said Fred Wise, the state's rail office manager.
May be less costly
"We just haven't had any opt to make those improvements," Wise said.
Wise said the new federal regulations will probably make it less expensive in many cases to get approval for a whistle ban. The tradeoff, he said, is that Florida's standards may be watered down a bit.
"Our requirements today are higher," he said. "I don't think we'll be able to sustain that."
Still, said Wise, he's comfortable local, state and federal officials will require enough safety measures to protect both drivers and train passengers.
"I don't think we'll have a problem with that," he said. "There are lots of things we can do."
Jim Stratton can be reached at jstratton@orlandosentinel.com or 407-420-5379. Rebecca Panoff, Robert Perez and Ludmilla Lelis of the Sentinel staff contributed to this report.
Copyright 2003, Orlando Sentinel
"Rizzo, the Maitland mayor, agreed.
The horns are "loud and obnoxious," he said. "It's a huge issue for us.""
Weren't the RR's there before the town? Why the hell should they complain?
This is the same area where people built and bought houses across the street from one of the top 5 largest universities in the country, and complained everytime developers submitted plans for student apartment complexes.
Still, if there's a train coming....STOP!
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From the Hudson Bergen Line. I wonder how nice this area is becoming now.
A 400+ apt complex with stores and a garage being proposed right on a rail line stop
I wonder if there's a comprehensive map or listing of all the development that took place on the hudson-bergen, or maybe something before and after. This all sounds interesting.
"Rizzo, the Maitland mayor, agreed.
The horns are "loud and obnoxious," he said. "It's a huge issue for us.""
Weren't the RR's there before the town? Why the hell should they complain?
This is the same area where people built and bought houses across the street from one of the top 5 largest universities in the country, and complained everytime developers submitted plans for student apartment complexes.
Still, if there's a train coming....STOP!
Does this mean, now that I've thought of driving around and actually computing my average mph on certain roads, that i'm a nerd now?? Too much free time.
And one their official sites
This Meadowlands spur has been bandied around for a number of years actually. And you are right – the proposed West Shore Line service was connected to this spur, what with NJT desiring to have West Shore service (always considered in commuter service mode) operate via Secaucus Junction (aka Lautenberg Station). Not initially, however; the spur was indeed conceived as a standalone project.
Different factions have different views on the West Shore Line and Northern Branch passenger projects; some regard them as competing while others want both…and what with the traffic in northeastern Bergen County, they can’t get both up and running soon enough. Since the West Shore service is intended to restore the commuter trains to West Haverstraw, then to be sure any LRT service on the Northern Branch—even if extended to Nyack NY—cannot be a replacement…
Stadium service heavy rail (which, if you think about thousands of fans leaving after a game is what is needed!).
Vince Lombardi: extension of HBLR.
They are not incompatible with each other, except that they are obviously competing for funds. However, at the same time McGreevy announced the rail spur, he also announced $160M from the Xanadu developers. Maybe they are going to end up paying for the rail spur.
Vince Lombardi: extension of HBLR
That is not the extension but the originally planned terminus. The Northern Branch service (to Tenafly) is the extension. I did not mention “incompatibility”, but if you want to bring that up, then light rail and heavy rail are not compatible as far as the FRA is concerned…
I'm wondering if it's expensive to live on that island?
OK, it's nothing like Hawaii. But you can't get to Hawaii via the 63rd Street tunnel for $2.00.
Now if only 2nd Avenue trains were still crossing the Queensboro - imagine the photo opportunities :)
--Mark
Roosevelt Island in general seems like a beautiful place to live, all though the idea of living in the middle of the east river(literally) does not sit too well with me. It was one of the place my parents looked at when they decided to move us out of Brooklyn(I still miss it to this day, even though I go back a lot).
I think we should all take a trip some day on it as a sub/bus trip, bring bikes with us maybe?
Start in Flushing, switch in Jakson Heights to the F, take it to RI. Take the tram over to manhattan.get on the Q32 bus to Harold Square. Subway over the manhattan. Maybe squeeze in coney island, the prospect park subway, ya kno, the S, then the A to the rockaways.
www.forgotten-ny.com
True for most machines that take bills, especially the ones at the post office.
www.forgotten-ny.com
What I want Santa to bring me
Posted by Bob Andersen on Thu Dec 23 22:15:54 1999
1. Full Second Ave. Subway
2. Brand new 4-track Manhattan Bridge
3. The entire IND second system as propsed in 1929
4. LIRR to Grand Central
5. Open the IRT City Hall station as part of the Transit Museum
6. Extend the N to LaGuardia
7. Connection to JFK using the LIRR Rockaway Beach branch
...and a partridge in a pear tree!
May we all live long enough to see these projects built!
--Reconstruction of the LIRR Whitestone Branch either for IRT or LIRR
--A true IND extension to southeast Queens
--Extension of the IRT to LaGuardia: ROW along the GCP
--Light rail in Brooklyn, perhaps from the new Atlantic terminal to the waterfront
--An HBLR extension across the Bayonne...
--...which will connect to a revived North Shore SIRR...
--...which can use the Arthur Kill bridge to a new terminal at NJT in Elizabeth...
--...which will make the ferry terminal another busy ferry/rail hub
--a change in heart by the mayor and other local politicians who will actively pursue limiting auto traffic in Manhattan the same way they attacked smokers
--a spur that will allow the IRT to reach the new park at Governors Island from South Ferry
De planes! De planes! Welcome to Airtrain..er, Fantasy Island...
www.forgotten-ny.com
It is on theAustralian Transport Safety Bureau, Rail Investigation Reports page.
Arti
This reminds of December 2001, when selected F trains ran via 63 St. Passengers had no idea until the train reached Roosevelt Avenue. At Roosevelt, there would be announcement along the lines of "this train is running via 63 St, passengers wishing for service to QUEENS PLAZA, get off and take the next F train."
The expressions on people's faces were priceless. Especially the confused looks when the train reached 21 St-Queensbridge.
By the way, the second anniversary of the V train's first revenue service run has quietly gone past. However, once in a rare while I will encounter someone who has a baffled expression as to what the V train is. Earlier this year I encountered someone who STILL thought the F went to Queens Plaza. He looked slightly disgruntled when I told him "it's been like this for nearly two years already" as he was getting off at 21 St.
One way is to leave an impression, that the train may go express after Roosevelt. Simulating static in the PA should do the trick.
Arti
I'm not so sure about that. I'm not proposing to cut service. If they add trains going via local, what is there to complain about? E to 179th street went pretty much unnoticed by media.
Arti
The terminal would be built southeast of Roosevelt Avenue station, using the provision for the second system line as a starting point. Looking at Peter D.s book, it appears that the most difficult and expensive part of the construction, the flyover from the Manhttan Bound track, is already there. A terminal station would be built at the end of the extension, so the QB local would not have to be held up while the train is fumagated.
The addtional terminal could be used in one of two ways.
First, the G could be re-extended as far as Roosevelt Avenue and then use the new terminal. This would allow the G to platform at Queens Boulevard, as before.
Second, one of the QB locals could become a third express via battery run from Roosevelt to Queens Plaza. One train, say the R, would pick up passengers from 71st Street to Roosevelt -- then run non-stop to Queens Plaza, serving as a third express. The other train, say the V, would follow the R from the new terminal into Roosevelt, then pick up passengers from Roosevelt to Queens Plaza. The timing appears to allow the "local" to get out of Queens Plaza before the next "express" comes in at 10 trains per hour for each.
Under this scenario, there would be no reason for a Manhattan-bound passenger on the R to transfer at Roosevelt, since the R would be express from that point as well. For those boarding between Roosevelt and 71st Street, there would indeed by three expresses.
Wouldn't it be cheaper to improve terminal operations, than to build a new one?
Under this scenario, there would be no reason for a Manhattan-bound passenger on the R to transfer at Roosevelt, since the R would be express from that point as well. For those boarding between Roosevelt and 71st Street, there would indeed by three expresses.
This could be also implemented when both localsa start at Continental.
Arti
This could be also implemented when both localsa start at Continental.)
Near at I could tell, this could only work with eight trains per hour on the two lines, with one going express from 71st to Roosevelt and the other from Roosevelt to Queens Blvd.
One of them could start at Hillside.
Arti
So do the QB express tracks. They used to run 34 tph of 11-car trains back in the 1950's. That's nearly 25% more service. Also all the F's stopped at Queens Plaza. :-)
You know, that that's never going to happen again.
Arti
End fumigation at Continental and place a PO on the train during the relay for the security of operating personell.
Arti
I have a solution. There is space on the locals. There is even space on many of the expresses, in the middle and and at the north end. If passengers want a comfortable ride, they can spread out. If they prefer to be packed like sardines than to spend four more minutes on a local or a few more minutes exiting the station, then they're welcome to be packed like sardines. NYCT has even informed passengers of the approximate time differential between local and express, but most of them refuse to believe it.
But the current service pattern is perfectly adequate and appropriate. The only changes I'd make are perhaps to swap the E and F terminals, as has been suggested in another recent thread, and to run some form of the V on weekends.
I had a suggestion I posted once, but no one took it seriously (and probably rightly so).
3 tracks inbound on QB. Return a whole bunch of trains back to Jamaica via the Chrystie St connector and the underused J line. Yes, I know you have to build a connector between the E and J in Jamaica.
A much more likely and less costly solution in the long term is to improve signaling and train management so that 40 tph are possible.
Train management or supervision is the real culprit. The signal system can handle 40 tph.
There are two major cost items: rolling stock and labor. The roster is down about 5% from 40 years ago, when allowance is made for 75 foot cars.
You will also need separate crews for morning and evening rush hour trains because there are no longer any split shifts. So, adding rush hour trains is more expensive than adding midday trains. In fact, non-rush hour service between 6 am and 11 pm is probably at an all time high.
1. 40 trains an hour have never been scheduled, and to my knowledge, 40 trains per hour have never been attempted even under test conditions.
2. As we've said here ad infinitum, changes to the signal system and operating rules since the Queens Boulevard Line opened have acted to reduce the capacity of the line. The line currently has 30 scheduled express trains per hour during the peak (and I understand NYCT is getting the required throughput or at least close to it), and might be able to get 30 TPH on the local tracks if they were needed, which they are not since many people on local trains tend to transfer to the express at the earliest opportunity and don't seem to be able to be talked into changing their ways (but isn't that what this thread is about in the first place?).
David
With an allowance of 30 seconds dwell time at each station.
I'm glad that somebody from the TA finally admits that this is the system's capability. The TA has been in denial for a couple of decades.
1. 40 trains an hour have never been scheduled, and to my knowledge, 40 trains per hour have never been attempted even under test conditions.
I question the benefit of the TA's attempting such a test, having witnessed the TA's "Keystone Cops" attempt to operate 30 tph on the Flushing Line a couple of years ago. The managerial techniques for train supervision used by systems that do operate 40 tph are far more rigorous than those currently employed by the TA. They use accurate, precise clocks and realistic, detailed timetables. Truth in operations - heresy :-)
As we've said here ad infinitum, changes to the signal system and operating rules since the Queens Boulevard Line opened have acted to reduce the capacity of the line
Is that the TA's party line? Have they provided any mathematical basis for this assertion or is it simply that they haven't operated more trains?
...and might be able to get 30 TPH on the local tracks if they were needed, which they are not since many people on local trains tend to transfer to the express at the earliest opportunity and don't seem to be able to be talked into changing their ways
The TA is making a habit of blaming their customers for not adjusting to the TA's latest ideas.
About 25 years ago a young traffic planner at NYCDOT told me of his experiences in aligning some temporary barriers on West St, shortly after the Westside Highway was removed. He had planned their placement by the book. He also looked at what the cars were doing, which was different from conventional wisdom. He placed the barriers down according to the cookbook and traffic jams ensued. He then tinkered with their placement, moving them to locations that went with the flow from his previous on site observations. The traffic jams disappeared. He kept the lesson that when moving masses it is a good idea to go with the flow, when possible. That subversive idea did not harm his career; he later became Traffic Commissioner.
Every survey showed that Queens Boulevard riders wanted more express service into Manhattan. The TA has reduced Queens Blvd express service.
I admit nothing. Note the use of the word "WAS" in the sentence to which Mr. Bauman responded. The system WAS designed and built to handle 40 trains per hour. It has never handled 40 trains per hour (34 is the maximum SCHEDULED throughput I know of, and I have yet to see evidence that there was TRUE throughput of 34 trains per hour) and has been modified over the years, as have work rules, in ways that preclude operation of 40 trains per hour.
"Every survey showed that Queens Boulevard riders wanted more express service into Manhattan. The TA has reduced Queens Blvd express service."
There were 30 express trains an hour in 2001 before the 63rd Street Connector opened; there are 30 express trains an hour in 2003. I am not talking about 1957, and it is disingenuous of Mr. Bauman to talk about 1957. For better or worse, it is no longer 1957. Again, party line or not, work rules and the equipment in place on the line have been modified since the Queens Boulevard Line opened (1933-50). There are timers and wheel detectors where there were none, there are posted but unenforced (by the signal system) speed restrictions where there were none, the cars have been modified so it takes longer to reach top speed, key-by without authorization has been discontinued, and a 10-second delay has been put into the key-by circuitry. There may also have been changes to signal block overlap; I'll leave it to signal system experts to tell us.
David
Contrary to popular belief (and I think you know this too), not everyone travels the same way during the morning rush on the commuter rail system either.
I recently rode the 7:53 AM N White Plains Local (and is it ever a local!), and will soon be riding it every day (hallelujah!). It is quite full (seats for all, but not multiple seats), and there is one like it every half hour. The New Haven Line also gets very good traffic in the AM outbound rush. I haven't ever ridden the Croton Line or the LIRR in the AM outbound rush.
Then people will have to decide which is more important to them, gaining an extra 3-4 minutes with the express which doesn't get them where they want to go, or staying with the local.
It probably makes sense, but this will definitely cause a major public outcry and will be impossible to implement for political reasons.
Arti
If they would have considered decent transfer options from Lex and 63rd (when building it), your idea could actually be politically possibel.
Arti
Not really. The least crowded Queens-Manhattan service before 63rd St was the Queens Blvd-60th St service which has reasonably good Lex transfer. BTW, making 59th an express stop did not help making the BMT more popular.
60th Street service has always been local.
Arti
Arti
Arti
I think that the real reason for G to Court is the lack of rolling stock.
Arti
Started out at Howard Beach. Went to available MVM to purchase a Metrocard for Airtrain. It was the "Connect to the world" Metrocard. I noticed the multitude of choice of languages to start with. Great for the global community. Noticed that I couldn't purchase a regular PPR $4 on this MVM. This was at the fare controls within NYCT.
To my left was a tourist, either Swedish or German asking a female NYCT staff member about a MVM reading on the screen. The employee was a bit snotty and the tourist, obviously offended stated "all right, you don't have to yell at me". Nice public relations.
After purchasing my Metrocard, it was through the gate and onto Airtrain. After boarding at Howard beach, I naturally headed to the head car and positioned myself at the railfan window. Salaam Allah would go nuts over this large railfan window.
The acceleration was nice, but the braking was as reported here as a little choppy. Riding the aerial guideways was as reported here like a roiller coaster. I liked this very much. Rode around Terminals 1 thru 8/9 and back to Howard Beach. Rerode and changed at Federal Circle for the train to Jamaica. I agree there is a lack of signage and if not for an employee, I wouldn't know enough to go downstairs at Federal Circle for the train to Jamaica. One of the two elevators was OOS.
The run to Jamaica is great. With the aerial guideway curving this way and that way, it was a speed run up the Van Wyck. As we slowed for the approach to Jamaica, this afforded an unseen view of the LIRR station. Photography, through the enormous railfan window is reccommended, provided you're not being watched. I did see a couple of P.A. cops with their K-9 dogs. One German Sheppard was giving me the look like he could smell my Minolta XE-7 through my camera bag. He didn't growl or snarl and neither did I !
I did noticed that the doors closing announcement didn't work some trains. I saw one car trains, which I believe are the terminal circulator cars are in the #200 series numbers, while the two car trains are in the #100 series. Anyone know what the difference in these cars are, since they have different number series ?
Although the system is three days old, it's starting to resemble the NYC subway system a bit. There was trash on the floors and seats, and some stains on the carpets. Didn't notice any scratchitti or grafitti, but time will tell.
What's my take on Airtrain ?
As a railfan, it was something new and nice. As a traveler, I rarely fly out of town. But since I live on LI, a LIRR trip to Jamaica and Airtrain to the terminal would beat driving to JFK or taking a $30 dollar taxi there. I'm a one suitcase guy, not incluiding my camera bag. I've taken the LIRR to Penn and Amtrak Metroliner to D.C. in the past, so a trip to Jamaica would be no bid deal.
Generally I think the system is nice and fast, but there are still some teething pains that need to be addressed. The Port Authority should reach out to riders to find out what needs to be improved or changed.
This was the first time I went from Howard Beach to Jamaica without going through Brooklyn. But at a cost of $10. So what, you only live once, go for the gusto.
Bill "Newkirk"
Photography is LEGAL on the AirTrain, AFAIK. I was taking photos on opening day at one of the stations and an AirTrain employee came over and said something like "great view, isn't it" and I sad "yes, it is."
Thanks for pointing out the 100/200 series car numbering system. I didn't notice that when I was there on opening day.
One of the escalators at Federal Circle was not working. One had to walk down from the upper level to the lower level. Another point regarding the escalators - they are standard escalators. They should have opted for escalators with a deeper step to aid with baggage and/or carts. I've seen this in other airports.
I took an airport-bound train for Jamaica from Federal Circle. About 24 people including myself and two other railfans headed back from the terminal area. Half got out at Federal Circle to get rental cars, only 12 actually went to Jamaica including the 3 railfans. 14 people boarded at Jamaica for the trip to the airport making 17 passengers.
I switched at Federal Circle for the Howard Beach train. It was crowded - around 50 passengers. However, most got off at the Lefferts Blvd/extended parking lot station. I did not check how many exited to the parking lot and how many exited to the subway at Howard Beach. More people entered at the Howard Beach station than did at Jamaica. Again I don't know how many entered from the subway and how many entered from the parking lot.
I got out at Federal Circle and had to walk down the non-functioning escalator a second time. I walked back to the Ramada and went back home.
I did try to gauge the speed of the train on the trip from Jamaica to Federal Circle by looking at the cars along the VanWyck. We were more or less at the same speed. I overtook the train in my car on the VanWyck on my way home. I slowed down to try to get a handle on the train's speed. My guess is around 40 mph. It sure felt faster in the train but my guess is that it isn't a speed demon.
I was disappointed that they don't have any automatic passenger counters. The only counts will be from the turnstiles at Jamaica and Howard Beach. It would be nice to get accurate use counts for the entire system from each station. I would like to see some hard figures for use rather than the "estimates" that were in the DEIS.
I clocked the train at 59.0 MPH on my GPS unit. An AirTrain rep said they go 60 MPH.
A GPS does not measure speed directly; it measures position. It calculates speed by calculating the distance between successive points and dividing by the elapsed time.
For civilian GPS units the position measurement is accurate to 100 meters or 300 feet. That means a distance calculation can be off by a maximum of 600 feet due to positional innacuracy alone.
Suppose you want to make sure that a distance calculation is accurate to 1%, what is the minimum distance one can measure. Given the maximum distance error of 600 feet, then the total distance measurement must be greater than 600 x 100 = 60,000 feet or slightly over 11 miles.
The distance over the VanWyck is much less than 11 miles long. I'd opt for a radar gun, if you want to measure speed from a moving AirTrain. Alternatively, I'd time it over a measured course.
This means that the distance over which the speed needs to be measured is reduced to about 1/3 mile, which is less than the distance over the van Wyck.
Usually, when a measurement is subject to a fixed error like that, they will specify accuracy as a percentage of full scale reading to make the spec look good. So, if the device were able to read 999 mph full scale, the accuracy would be 1.2% of full scale. At least that feels better. :-)
Your presentation of a four significant figure answer from a one significant figure number is atrocious, especially having previously translated 3 m to 9 ft.
It's way closer to 10ft - IINM, 3m = approx 9'10"
"For civilian GPS units the position measurement is accurate to 100 meters or 300 feet. That means a distance calculation can be off by a maximum of 600 feet due to positional innacuracy alone."
I believe that is changing. DoD has given its OK for civilians to be able to enjoy accuracy to 10 meters.
I have paced test trains by car, and they went 60 mph over the Van Wyck. It's possible that they were slowed down because of the teething problems experienced Wednesday, but others have measurements of close to 60 mph. IIRC, the train does slow down as you approach the Belt Parkway (and it approaches a rather serious curve); south of the Rockaway Boulevard exit or thereabouts, Airtrain probably would be going about 35-40 mph.
I was was going northbound on the VanWyck while pacing the train. I was pretty far from the Atlantic Ave curve, when I was looking at my speedometer. Similarly, when I was looking at the cars from the train while going south, I was far from the Belt.
I was surprised by the amount of noise in AirTrain considering that it is extremely quiet to an observer on the ground. I can think of two things that would cause this discrepency. First, the car does not have the acoustic treatment that has been used in all the TA's cars from the R62's. Second, the sound baffles on the side of the guideway, reflect the sound back into the car rather than letting it disperse.
The noise level definitely made it feel that we were going faster than we actually were. The TA used to place half mile markers along the tracks. I'd measure the speed with my stopwatch. I was very disappointed that fast express runs were seldom over than 40 mph and very rarely over 45 mph despite all the noise and swaying of the first generation postwar cars.
It probably isn't much of an issue, since most passnegers ar riding to get somwhere, not turning around and go back. There's also the argumenet that, like the subway system, a fare gets you unlimited use of the system until you exit. You could play the dumb tourist and claim to want to go to Howard Beach but took the wrong train.
FWIW, I've ridden PATCO to Lindenwold and back on a single-zone fare without incident.
Do you know if they allow bicycles on the AirTrain?
Do they allow bicycles on Airplanes?
All airlines permit bicycles in place of a piece of luggage. Some require that the bikes be in boxes. Some even supply the boxes.
Others don't require any boxes. I've ridden my bicycle into JFK to catch flights.
Are you serious? What did you do with the bike when you got on the plane?
It's a piece of checked baggage. I took it with me to use at my destination.
It depends. On some airlines you have to use a Samsonite carry case or they won't allow you to board. Others will allow you but only if the bike is in a box. Other airlines will allow you to put the bike in a soft carry bag. Other airlines will not allow any bikes, no exceptions.
Phil Hom
Nope, technically not the NYC subway system.
Bill "Newkirk"
That doesn't allow for much variety among vehicle types, does it? Maybe it would fly as a poster-size wall calendar, like Amtrak issues.
How about a NYCT conductor calendar with your picture in every month including the front cover.........that should sell thousands of copies !!
Bill "Newkirk"
--Mark
On one of the runs, a customer service representative was familiarizing about 10 firemen on the operation of the train. At one point, she opened up the front panel to show the firemen the manual control panel. She first notified the control center and asked permission to do that. I was quite impressed with the array of switches. I was unable to get a decent shot of the controls since I was standing back of the firemen.
I've been wondering about the track arrangement at Federal Circle, where they incoming and outgoing tracks are on different levels. The Jamaica and Broad Channel trains split off north of Federal Circle. I'm guessing that having incoming and outgoing on separate levels avoids having some awkward switching arrangements.
Click here. And here is the rest of the control and automation stuff.
I have a friend who lives in Howard Beach, but goes to school in Jamaica, she loves it.
Then they wonder why they get eliminated and replaced with automated systems or cardboard cutouts like the ones on the Airtrain system.
It's all good news.
Got in a conversation with the conductor going into work and he explained to me it was the old row of the ConRail track being used and also told me the Bayonne was built in hopes a rail could run over it, also part of the issue they can't run the cars faster because they have to go through residential areas.
With all that apartment and housing being built between Essex St and Jersey Ave Sta.
If it does get to Staten Is, wonder if people will start leaving Staten Is. to go up into Bayonne and Pavonia to shop
Admittedly, the scenario is a little far fetched. Still...it could be a result. Bayonne is Brooklynesque, with that Jersey flavor. The times I've been there it reminded me strongly of some of the long Brooklyn Avenues, like Fifth Avenue, with stores in every building and apartments over the stores. And the streets seem lively, busy. It's a decent area to live. I could see Staten Island folk going over to shop and go out. It would be the closest quickest place to get to.
Even the communities further up the line would benefit. I think it could only improve on the conditions in that north Staten Island area. Right now it's in a geographical and transportation sump, so to speak. I would enjoy seeing Port Richmond be re-energized.
But the train runs through a pretty deserted area right now, from Liberty State Park until Essex Street is reached (which is mostly residential). To me Jersey is smart, though, as to where they put the line. Remember what the Jersey City waterfront looked like 20 years ago? Ride HBLR in 2020 and I bet the area around the Marin Blvd and Jersey Avenue stations will be all built up.
Hurry up with your cameras before they put the lights back on.
There are no lights on either platform and it has been going on since sunset. The timer is supposed to activate the outdoot portion of the station to be lit.
I don't think you're right there, I see E-60s moving boxcars around whenever I had a moment down in Philly. True there were P42's and little switcher things (MP-15?) that sometimes did the work, but they seem to prefer electric engines. Up here in BOS, the yard goat is (was) an AEM-7. Actually there are a few yard goats, an MBTA one (either 901 or 1921) that's used to haul coaches between North and South stations, and then there are others. I don't believe any P-42's are permanently stationed here. For a while, GP-40 525 (ex Toronto) was used here as a yard goat. One time it had to rescue an HHP-8.
These were the old New England div protect engines, but a while back I heard NJT bought some Amtrak F40's and these might be them, back from Altoona.
New England Div protect engines were 280 and 261. I wouldn't be surprised if they were sometimes moved around, but from what I can gather, these engines moved to the scrap line shortly after 2001's Snow Train charter. I have pics of a line up of 7 F-40's at Albany NY.
While 280 and 261 mght have been on Protect duty in 2001, they have long since been disposed of. 291 and 265 were stored serviceable at Boston as emergency backup power until recently when they were shipped west on tran 449/49 and then back to Philly on 40. They might be the last two active F40's on Amtrak.
I don't believe that, by a long shot. Unless these were going to Chicago for a reason, it is unlikely they would have done that. F-40's can be dragged dead through the New York area tunnels.
They might be the last two active F40's on Amtrak.
F-40's will be around for a long while yet. There are simply too many of them to dispose. Bunch of 'em are sitting out at Beech Grove and it's a matter of time before those will get used on some move (although I don't think they will ever be used for revenue trains again). I can see F-40's getting activated for things like one-off charters, or for protect duty.
By the way, did I mention that I saw two F-40's heading Southbound on Seaboard Air Line behind CSX engines sometime last summer? Have fotos, but they're at home. I wonder where those went.
AEM7
Makes me wonder what it is doing there though...maybe a disgruntled railfan threw it in disgust to find no 76th Street destination :-)
Da Hui
GSM FOREVER BABY!!
Busfan will love it too since he won't have to ask us a million times to post the readings.
I don't know why I'm laughing so hard....I guess I should've expected this from CDTA.
Why should it matter? Surely you weren't planning on trespassing on the tracks to retrieve it - probably ending up as an R-46's new hood ornament in the process - to retrieve it, were you?
The effects of soda on 1's mind...
#3 West End Jeff
Are you too pissed off at Monmouth Junction to write its name?
Once the new Hudson tunnels are completed and capacity is available at NY Penn then they could figure out how to get M.O.M into NY Penn, until then Hoboken would suite me fine (speaking as an Manalapan/Englishtown resident).
Personally, I would like to see the rails restored and a new station constructed at Monmouth Junction, which should have a local NJT station between New Brunswick and Princeton Junction.
Sundry trains may continue as Waterfront Connections, but I dont see Hoboken being the primary terminus of this service if it happens
The only way to make Hoboken the primary terminus would be to finish the Waterfront Connection by building a second track. Of course, depending on the number of trains they actually want to run on MOM, the slots within Newark Penn and on the NEC would get constricted pretty fast…
On p14 of the DEIS scoping document, it shows a map of NJ with a long straight boundary line running roughly SE-NW from the coast to some point in the middle of no-where. I've looked on a map and there's no major road or anything there. So why is there this obviously deliberate straight diagonal line, and why does it peter out in the middle of nowhere?
It's clearly an early boundary of some description (created before NJ's current counties). My question is to quite why there is this long straight early boundary going two-thirds of the way across NJ and why it doesn't continue to the state line.
Was NJ originally two states then?
What did the line do where it currently disappears in the middle of nowhere (or did no-one care)?
No states back then.
What did the line do where it currently disappears in the middle of nowhere (or did no-one care)?
The line ends at the South Branch of the Raritan River. At some point it's likely the border shifted to this line for convenience.
I'm guessing that you heard the new 6 voice. Like her?
I'll correct the captions later.
I'm guessing that you heard the new 6 voice. Like her?
Some Subtalkers (who shall remain nameless) were drooling whenever they heard her.
--Some Subtalkers (who shall remain nameless) were drooling whenever they heard her.
Wait... they hate her when she does the 5 announcemnts and call her a bitch, but she says "Thisisapelham-bay park bound. 6 lOcal train." and they drool? Unbeliaveable
I assumed they were drooling. They seemed obsessed with her.
Chuck Greene
I wonder why they put all those diesels with the trains at Westchester Yard. Why can't they just put them all on one track? Are they really that desperate to save space?
KEEP THE REDBIRDS ALIVE!!
#3 West End Jeff
came a more high-pitched female voice,
"...transfer is available to the 6 train."
And again at 125th Street, the usual female voice:
"This is...One hundred twenty-fifth street. Transfer is available for the M60 bus to LaGuardia Airport. Connection...is available...to Metro-North."
here comes the same wierd voice again:
"...transfer is available to the 5 and 6 trains."
Anyone ever hear this voice? I've NEVER heard it before.
Car #'s and I'll try to look out for it.
I heard it as I was getting off at Union Sq one time and I was like "what the fck?!"
I do wonder if it is the same voice as the "old school" 5 voice (represented in blue below).
>>This is an Eastchester-bound 5 express train.
>>The next stop is--
>>Pelham Parkway
>>Stand clear of the closing doors, please!
I believe the new (5) announcements, using your example, sound something like this:
New (5)
And IIRC, the old (5) sounded somewhat like this?
Old (5)
I meant to say that it's annoying to go:
Voice 1
Voice 2
Voice 1
Voice 3
Also, it's technically incorrect. It should be "The next stop will be."
This is a Bronx-bound 5 express train
You're stepping into dangerous territory here. These kids take their automated annoucements seriously. :)
TNSI: The Next Stop Is
TI: This is
The 6 train voice does the names of all stations the 6 line stops at and, also the phrases, TNSI and TI for these stations.
The same is true with the 2 train voice and the stops on the 2 line.
The 6 train voice also does the phrases, TNSI and TI for the stops at Fulton Street, Wall Street, Bowling Green, and Borough Hall. The 2 train voice does the phrase, TNSI for the stations on the Dyre line.
The 5 train voice does the names of all stations that are not served by the 2 and 6 lines, as well as TI for the Bronx stations not served by the 2.
I would assume that for the 4 train, all Bronx stations use the 6 train voice for the phrase, TNSI, and that the 5 train voice does TI and the station names, with the 2 train voice doing the Brooklyn stations.
The status of the Sparta project is NJ TRANSIT has completed 30 percent of the design work on the project, but cannot complete the final design until the site for the yard is determined and use of the right of way is secured. NJ TRANSIT is currently working with the Township of Hardyston to locate the yard on the site of the Lasinski Road landfill. Based on an agreement with the Township of Hardyston, closure plans were prepared and submitted to the New Jersey Department of Environmental Protection. NJ TRANSIT authorized the design consultant to update the Environmental Assessment based on the use of the Hardyston Landfill as the yard site. Other items of the project have been placed on permanent hold. Again, not a committed, funded project as of yet.
The West Shore project is waiting for a DEIS though it should be there by now. Not a committed, funded project as of yet.
Whilst all these projects have had money spent on planning studies, none of them has had construction money allocated, so Im not sure how scrapped applies yet. At worst, they complete the current study phase, then put the project on hold until a better financial climate provides adequate funding.
Also, I'm sure the NEC line has plenty of ridership wether it be weekdays or weekends.
We found out that within two weeks the entire structure will be down. Also of note: the old 'K' track part of the structure will be left as it helps support the remaining in-use part of the Canarsie Line. And the staircase on Snediker at Atlantic Avenue will remain as well.
Not yet. The staiways and mezzanine will remain; everything south of that will be removed.
That's Liberty, not Pitkin.
28 photos of Sneidker El demolition from today
---------------------------------------------------------------------
You seriously need a new digital camera, they come out kinda blurry
--
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
It's a piece of crap, I can tell u that. That's why I'm getting something else for Christmas.
Worry not, for a new dawn has arrived.
Look at this thread.
How would you know?
--Mark
Anyhow, thanks for linking to your images. I suspect that by next week all of the structure -- with the exception of the area near the stairwell on Snediker by Atlantic -- will be gone.
I can salvage just about any photo.
Chuck Greene
If you want to see the higher Quality Photos, they will be up tomorrow.
Damn, the one good shot I have from the whole day, and it's been trumped in 4 minutes and 1 second! Damn! :(
Great photos as usual, Chris. I love the B/W 5 Bowling Green one.
While the black and white shots were good, theyre not as impressive as some of your other art shots.
Just my opinion.
Nice display of photographic prowess. I can't wait to get out there today!
#3 West End Jeff
The last snowstorm when I was cleaning the snow I was also yelling at my father at the same time, telling him how shoveling snow requires no though whatsoever, only brute force and is thus a job for a machine and not a man.
It's about time someone took a stand and cleaned all the snow.
#3 West End Jeff
Sods law says that when someone buys a snow thrower, they are buying the area around them a snow-free existence for the rest of the season.
Now, where did you say you live?
#3 West End Jeff
You will have to make it an HTML page, and then make a link to it.
Elias
here.
Now who is who? I think its Lincoln up on the left hanging on to the strap, and Chris Rivera is in the upper middle behind the camera on a monopod belonging to the guy with glasses and red had (whose name I should know but dontsorry) to his left.
Names please! Im reasonably good at remembering faces, but I have to work at names.
Chuck Greene
Still, who is who?
Chuck Greene
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
Chuck Greene
And it's VC, not VCR.
Chuck Greene
LOL!
1LoveAGoodWomanWithLLLLLegs9
Paris Hilton
Chuck Greene
Oh, wait, I'm still in North Dakota.
: ) Elias
Now, who is everyone else? (And I could swear there are people missing...)
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
Here: 534 R33, all ML
430 R36 (391 in mated pairs, 39 singles)
As for why the R-33 and R-36 orders seemed to have exchanged 40 cars, my educated guess is that NYCT(A) wanted to be able to go to 11-car trains on the Flushing Line before all of the R-36 cars were ready.
David
My opinion:
The JFK system is more like a real train, not the "Disney" monorail at Newark.
I love the Terminal 4 station. Built right into the structure, you can stand outside and see the trains as it arrives/leaves the station, then go one flight up or down [depending if you are coming or going].
It seems that the Newark line is kept behind everything, while the JFK system is much more visible.
Now all the JFK system needs now is to get the glitches out.
Please list the criteria for your evaluation.
Seriously, they are two separate systems, built at different times to serve different needs. Dont forget that Newark Airtrain was first built to service the parking lots and rental car offices. Connection to the Northeast Corridor came later. Given the terminal design at Newark, the integration of the Airtrain stations is quite ingenious, and no more than an escalator/elevator ride away from the main level, which means sometimes two escalators/elevators.
It seems that the Newark line is kept behind everything, while the JFK system is much more visible.
Im not sure how this concerns anyone except railfans and, although Im sure you will be disappointed to learn this, the systems were not built with railfans in mind (except for the neat front windows!). I havent been to JFK yet, but I have read some of the complaints that its necessary to go outside the terminal and up/down stairs to get to the JFK AirTrain. Thats a demonstrable minus in my opinion, compared with Newark, where Airtrain has internal connections to all the terminals.
John
Also, I found out that they did eliminate all the transit bus stops around Lefferts. The B 15 stops at 130th, then it's basically nonstop to the first stop on Linden Blvd. From Lefferts, I had to go all the way back to terminal 4 to pick up the 15. At Federal Circle, it seems you are isolated on an "island" with the car rentals, and the former "all terminal" buses (red&blue), which now go from there to the cargo areas only. It sould seem you would have to cross the highway, to get over by the B10/15 stop, Amoco, the Ramada, etc.
The yellow& blue buses seemed lonely out there in the parking lot, just roaming around empty in the darkness. Where they were every 20 minutes when they ran through, now it is every few minutes, even though there are not that many people picking up long term cars.
Car: R142A #7665
Line: Brooklyn I.R.T. New Lots Branch
Route: (4)
Location: Utica Avenue
Notes: Interior
Train Direction: Uptown
Car: R142 #6890
Line: I.R.T. East Side
Route: (5)
Location: Brooklyn Bridge-City Hall
Notes: Train Operator
Train Direction: Uptown
Car: R142A #7266
Line: I.R.T. East Side
Route: (6)
Location: Brooklyn Bridge-City Hall
Train Direction: Uptown
I'll show the photos from the Grand Central Train Exhibit at some other time.
This weekend is the annual operation of the Santa Train on CNIC's Chicago
Subdivision. This marks the 31st consecutive year of its formal operation.
The train had quite the interesting origin and development. Thanks to
information forwarded to me by John Childs, I will recount the story of its
beginnings and success.
John by the way, aside from being the train's current Caretaker is also the
daylight trick, Desk 2 Train Dispatcher for CNIC at Homewood. The Santa
Train is a never-ending project and has indeed become a family affair for
the Childs household. John's lovely wife Susan and pretty daughter Margaret
also assist in making the train the annual event and success that it is and
they also deserve credit and recognition.
Back in 1967 there was an Engineer on the Kankakee/Bloomington tri-weekly
local named Arvid Cook. Arvid took up to dressing as Santa at Christmas
time. As the local went about its assigned duties of servicing the on-line
customers, people noticed "Santa Claus" running was running the engine.
Motorists in their cars would honk their horns and the children would wave.
Arvid would graciously wave back and give a few short blasts on the whistle
to acknowledge their greetings. At Anchor, IL, Arvid recalled a little boy
who just stood on the corner across from the tracks and watched as the
local spotted the elevator. This little boy, about eight, as Avid remembers
would neither come over when he motioned him to do so, nor would he wave to
Arvid. However he was always back the next day on the corner when the local
came south. This got Arvid to thinking.
The following year not only did Arvid dress as Santa; he came armed with a
bag full of candy. When the local stopped in the towns along the line to do
their switching and any little child would come by the train to see its
famous engineer, Arvid would throw them some candy and wish them a "Merry
Christmas". Needless to say, it didn't take too long at any town for Arvid
to start drawing a crowd. He was having the time of his life. However, not
all on the crew shared in Arvid's Christmas spirit. Many a time the answer
to the instructions to "take'm ahead", was, "just a minute I'm busy". The
Conductor on the job told Arvid that they were wasting too much time and if
the company found out what he was doing that he would get them all fired.
Despite this concern, Arvid was not about to quit.
The next year he again donned his Santa suit and brought his candy, but a
new twist was added. As the local departed Bloomington, Arvid stopped the
train and got off and went knocking on some doors to houses along the
tracks. He passed out his goodies to all the surprised children. The
Conductor thought that they were all going to be fired for sure. It was at
this point that Arvid decided to make his Santa Train a legitimate concern.
He went to Champaign to speak Illinois Division Superintendent Jim Law
about his concept. Arvid had an idea that this would give the railroad some
good press. When Mr. Law was presented with Arvid's idea of the Santa
train, it got mixed reviews. Arvid did get Mr. Law's approval with some
restrictions. The company would provide an engine and caboose but the train
had to operate on Arvid's as well as the crew's own time. All his help was
also required to sign a waiver freeing the company of any responsibility
should they be injured while working the train. Also, no one could violate
the hours of service. Even with these restrictions this was more than Arvid
hoped he could get. So the next year he would take the first run on the now
"Official" Santa Train.
Arvid made up a schedule, amassed his volunteers, and began to make phone
calls. He contacted all the mayors or community leaders along the Bloomer
(Bloomington District) and told them what he wanted to do, and asked for
their help and support. He got it, although not without some resistance
from a couple of them. When the train pulled into each town all the
children got to go up on the engine, ring the bell, blow the whistle, tell
Santa what they wanted for Christmas, then go into the caboose and get a
bag of goodies from Santa's helpers. Those helpers were Arvid's fellow
employees on the Chicago and Bloomington Districts, who gladly donated
their time just like him.
The train operated on the Bloomer until it was abandoned. Arvid then moved
to the Kankakee/Gilman turn local which operated on the Chicago District.
The Santa train followed him there. By this point in time, the word got out
that this was beginning to be a local tradition and the crowds were getting
large. Around 200 children at Kankakee alone would come to visit with Santa
on his train. The law department got worried and would not allow anyone on
the train. Arvid then proceeded to purchase an old caboose from the ICG and
had it painted Christmas red and numbered SC-1. He used that caboose until
he retired. It sat on the extension track in front of the depot at Gilman,
until it was required every 24th of December. When Arvid retired, Santa's
caboose was donated to Illinois Railway Museum in Union, Illinois.
Steve Simnick, a Chicago District Conductor, took over the train upon
Arvid's retirement. He had towns along the Chicago District requesting the
train make stops in their communities. Steve added a second day to the
train and extended the run to Rantoul. Arvid continued to show up every
year in his familiar red suit. By 1986 though, Arvid found that two days
was getting to be too much for him to handle alone as by now he was seeing
an average 1400 guests every year. Steve's father, Tim, an Engineer,
stepped up taking over the red suit. This was also the first year the
company allowed the use of the safety car. The train's consist had grown a
bit now with a pair of GP10 locomotives, the safety car, and a caboose (On
which the helpers stored their grips. it also contained a stove for the
helpers cook hot dogs for their lunch).
In 1989, Rantoul opted out of the Santa Train route. The town had acquired
a caboose of their own and had Santa on board every night across from the
passenger depot. With Rantoul dropped from the schedule, the town of
Thawville was then added. This was the first year the train went out on the
Gilman line. While Thawville only has a population of about 200, that first
year in their little community brought forth 275 visitors to the train.
Around 1993 Steve was unable to continue with the train and turned it over
to John Childs, who has run the train ever since. The train operates the
second weekend in December beginning its run at Ludlow and concluding the
first day at Gilman. Before ending at Gilman though, the side trip down the
Gilman Line to Thawville is made. The second day the train begins its run
at Danforth making stops along the way en route to its final destination of
Kankakee. Little has changed since Arvid first started the train. The train
waits at every stop until everybody has had the chance to visit with Santa.
Both Steve and John agree that they don't run the train, but are really the
caretakers of and preserving Arvid's dream.
In 1994 the company took on a much more supportive role in the operation of
the train. They added the second safety car, which has a kitchen, for the
members of the crew to use. Operation Lifesaver came on board and added a
lot of extra goodies to hand out to the children. In 1997 the volunteers
added a night at IC's Woodcrest Shops in Homewood where all Illinois
Central employees could bring their families out to meet Santa. In 1998 and
99 the crowds were right at 3000 for the two-day run. In 2000, the overall
attendance (which included the employee open house at Woodcrest) was about
5000 people.
With the proliferation of the Internet in American life, the Santa Train
gets much wider publicity which in turn, draws out larger crowds. This
year, the Santa Train will operate on December 8th and 9th. The schedule
was posted on the Internet over a month ago. I would suspect this year's
attendance will very likely break last year's record as a result.
A great deal of thanks is owed to CNIC Midwest Division Management team,
the folks who manage and run Woodcrest Shops and all the loyal and
dedicated employees, their families and friends whose efforts continue to
make the Santa Train a continued success. Without their cooperation and
participation, none of this would be possible.
Yours truly along with the train's caretaker John Childs and all the other
helpers will be out again in force to gladly assist Santa this year. And
all of us wish you and yours a safe, healthy and joyous Holiday Season.
* * * * (More To Come) * * * *
A few post scripts to add; The Illinois Central name has been officially
dropped and now we are just Canadian National or CN. However, by any other
name the management team is still supportive of the Santa Train. And with
that support we the volunteers owe them a great deal of appreciation. They
put up with the inconveniences the train causes to operations and also,
continue to provide us with the necessary equipment, such as the train
itself. They also feed us well; a hungry elf can become a testy elf.
This year's Santa Train was yet another success. While our total count of
visitors was down a little bit from last year, it was still quite the
popular attraction. We lost the stops at Loda and Buckley this year, but
the folks in Loda have already approached us about an alternative plan for
next year to bring them back into the fold. We'll pass the information on
should this plan come to fruition.
We did have a few setbacks this year, although most of them were not
visible to the guests. Several of the elves and several of the children of
the elves (Would they be elfettes?)took sick and had to depart the
festivities early. We were left a little short of help, but received some
substitute elves along the way to lend a hand, including one from the
former Grand Trunk Western side. We appreciate their pitching in.
We were fortunate enough to have an additional car on the train this year,
the Wisconsin Central Superior, a beautiful parlor car. It has a dining
room, several bedrooms and a parlor which is located at the observation
end. The car is very nicely done up and rides as comfortable as it looks.
But no good turn goes unpunished. As kind as the company was to provide the
Superior this year the railroad gods reared their ugly heads causing the
generator for this car to give up to ghost. This loss resulted in no heat
or lights within the Superior. Even at Christmas time the railroad gods
find the need to be known.
Our hero Rick Tracy (who is upset that I write nice things about him and
place them on the world wide web) was able to work up a connection to draw
power from the other cars to at least provide some lights and enough juice
to power up a couple of space heaters so Elf Jack didn't totally freeze to
death in there.
And oh yes Rick, you did another typical bang up job for us this year and
we thank you for your efforts. Hopefully this will get posted at Woodcrest
so your fellow employees in the Mechanical Department can get a good laugh.
To all of the volunteers and elves that made this year's train another
rousing success; take a bow as you deserve it. And of course the keeper of
the train John Childs and his lovely wife Susan, we thank you both for your
tireless efforts to carry on in the tradition started by the late Arvid
Cook, founder of the Santa Train. You went out and procured the original
seat that Arvid used setting it up as a tribute and memorial to Arvid, who
passes away earlier this year. I'm sure Arvid is resting in peace knowing
full well that you have carried on his tradition in such a fine and
gracious manner.
And of course the snow that fell was a really nice touch, really captured
the feeling of the season. It looked like Christmas. The "paparazzi" of
photographers following the train both days certainly appreciated the look
of Christmas to capture the look of the season along with the spirit of
good will generated by the train and all aboard. I'm sure that I will be
receiving Christmas cards next year capturing this year's train as the
photograph.
We're going to take a well deserved holiday as well. I have been failing
further and further behind with responding to mail as well as even reading
some of it. I've been working a steady diet of twelve hour evenings and
just have not been able to keep up with all that I need to do. If you have
sent me a note and I have not yet answered, that is partially why. Also, I
have come down with a severe sinus infection that has kept me out of
commission for the past few days. The onset of it has had me operating on
very low power prior to its really taking hold. I've been taking
prescription meds that have kept me home from work the past few days. Since
I returned from the Santa Train Sunday night, I have hardly been in this
computer until today.
I will be off this year for both Christmas Eve and New Year's Eve, so we
plan to live a little like the civilians for both days (and evenings).
We'll see you back here in 2004. From the beautiful bride and me, we wish
you a very Merry Christmas and a safe, a Happy Chanukah and a healthy and
joyous New Year.
And so it goes.
Tuch
Hot Times on the High Iron, 2001 and 2003 by JD Santucci
You need space to put your photos. Bombadier (aka John Villanueva) offers space on his web site for people to post photos. E-mail gallery@subwayspot.com him and ask for a userid to post.
John
PS: kid is a juvenile goat!
I thought 4traintowoodlawn was older than that.. (his grammar holds up well vs. others).
(shame on you, LincolN... taking me seriously when I'm replying to a mackdaddy GSB post!)
i did not see where you posted addresses..... brah.
Mebbe that was the 1 time he CORRECTLY hit PREVIEW rather than POST. (kewl)
Basically, too many people use/try to use Camden Town station, so this line's designed to get people away from it. I've also taken the opportunity to create some neat cross platform transfers and a degree of reroutability in the Piccadilly line should something go awry.
The "Camden Line" would be run out of one or more of the following yards:
- Stonebridge Park
- London Road
- Cockfosters
- Ealing Common
- Northfields
- Neasden (probably not - the Jubilee's ATO would cause problems)
Here are a couple of maps to illustrate my idea:
I like your map. With the connections proposed, it would have to run tube, rather than subsurface stock.
Why no connections to the Central Line at Oxford Circus? And why Temple? Im surprised you didnt pick up the Aldwych branch, and plot an alternate route from Holborn. Then we can put the Yerkes station back into use!
What else is the Xmas vacation for?
I like your map.
Thanks.
With the connections proposed, it would have to run tube, rather than subsurface stock.
Seeing how deep it would have to be, there'd be no other way of doing it. To give an idea of depth, it would be about 60-65ft deep at Chalk Farm (one level below the Northern Line).
Why no connections to the Central Line at Oxford Circus?
Bit difficult with Gt Portland St and Oxford St crossing at right-angles. Passengers of course could transfer - although I've tried to cut down on this by making the Bakerloo Line super easy at Gt Portland St - Regent's Pk.
And why Temple?
It would actually be under the Strand, in front of KCL (so more Aldwych really). I put Temple as there'd be a connecting passage to the District Line station, Aldwych is now closed, and it would be confusing to have one station with two names.
Im surprised you didnt pick up the Aldwych branch, and plot an alternate route from Holborn. Then we can put the Yerkes station back into use!
It would be tempting to put the Shuttle back for the sake of it - especially seeing as this plan sorts out its reason for closure (new lifts required!).
it would be confusing to have one station with two names.
You alreday have Bank/Monument and look at what we've got over here.
I didn't want to totally duplicate the Bakerloo Line...
I believe it's a more popular destination than Leicester Sq. on weekdays.
That's what most people would guess. Surprisingly, Leicester Sq's more popular. Here are (partial) ridership stats (average daily, 2002):
Leicester Sq
Entry weekday total 46083
Entry weekday PM peak 12687
Exit weekday total 49443
Exit weekday AM peak 8681
Charing X
Entry weekday total 31535
Entry weekday PM peak 8270
Exit weekday total 32947
Exit weekday AM peak 7364
The only way I could see an argument for Charing X being more popular is by using the data for Embankment (even then it's a marginal thing in the peaks - the rest of the day, it's pretty quiet) - however, that's the station that people from North London wouldn't use!
And a one seat ride from King's X is certainly a bonus.
Definitely - and King's X is one of the few major hubs that seems to deal easily with the pedestrian traffic (it has 78.1 million riders per annum, compared to 39.1 for the chronicly overcrowded Bank/Monument) - it'll be even better when you can get into St Pancras station again.
You alreday have Bank/Monument
I don't think we want any more of those...
and look at what we've got over here.
Exactly. Isn't it rather confusing to get off in the morning at a station called Broadway-Nassau, yet leave and re-enter through a station called Fulton St?
You don't. The Loo doesn't go to Chalk Farm or Kentish Town.
And Gloucester Gate needs a transfer to the Euston-Watford line.
Charing X
Entry weekday PM peak 8270
Exit weekday AM peak 7364
I'd like to know the figures for the opposite direction for AM/PM.
Besides, once the Eurostar terminates at St. Pancras, that one seat ride (well... if you're lucky to get one) is likely to be more popular than now. St. Pancras to King's X Thameslink is a long walk. The Charing X connection will give one seat rides from King's X/St. Pancras to most terminals and an across-the-platform interchange at Oxford Circus for Waterloo. Now, how I'm going to get an easy way for people to get to Marylebone is another question.
I don't think we want any more of those...
Haven't you just created one? (GPS-Regent's Park)
Isn't it rather confusing to get off in the morning at a station called Broadway-Nassau, yet leave and re-enter through a station
called Fulton St?
All I can say is: "Auber Opra Havre-Caumartin Haussmann-Saint-Lazare Saint-Augustin Saint-Lazare"
Cheers, mate!
:-D Finally turning the Euston - Watford Line into a proper Underground Line...
Charing X
Entry weekday PM peak 8270
Exit weekday AM peak 7364
I'd like to know the figures for the opposite direction for AM/PM.
Charing X Annual entry and exit frequencies
Entry weekday total:31535
Entry weekday early:437
Entry weekday A.M. peak:7527
Entry weekday inter peak:8641
Entry weekday P.M. peak:8270
Entry weekday evening:6660
Entry Saturday total:27837
Entry Sunday total:17016
Exit weekday total:32947
Exit weekday early:271
Exit weekday A.M. peak:7364
Exit weekday inter peak:9407
Exit weekday P.M. peak:10357
Exit weekday evening:5548
Exit Saturday total:24842
Exit Sunday total:14757
Total annual entry + exit (in millions)20.927861
Besides, once the Eurostar terminates at St. Pancras, that one seat ride (well... if you're lucky to get one) is likely to be more popular than now.
You could say that about any station in London. I doubt it would be the case as much with Charing X as people would ride the either the Northern Line from Ldn Bri to KXSP or, if they've lots of luggage, Thameslink.
St. Pancras to King's X Thameslink is a long walk.
Which is why King's X TL is being replaced by St P TL - under the ex Midland Railway terminal station (which I believe is the reason for the prolongued walk across the St Pancras Rd to find an Underground entrance.
Now, how I'm going to get an easy way for people to get to Marylebone is another question.
That's the easiest one possible - build a new entrance at the Western end of Baker St station on the H&C/Circle. It would emerge at about Gt Central St, one block from the main entrance of Marylebone station.
Haven't you just created one? (GPS-Regent's Park)
No, that's a renaming of two existing stations, just like Strand and Trafalgar Sq became Charing Cross. It would be fun fitting it in the roundel - I'd try something like:
GT PORTLAND STREET
REGENT'S PARK
All I can say is: "Auber Opra Havre-Caumartin Haussmann-Saint-Lazare Saint-Augustin Saint-Lazare"
All I can say is that I decided to walk that once for fun and ride the 3 back.
Which is why King's X TL is being replaced by St P TL - under the ex Midland Railway terminal station (which I believe is the reason
for the prolongued walk across the St Pancras Rd to find an Underground entrance.
Ah... Didn't know.
GT
Nice hint. Now I can do "ST-LAZARE", the French way. Not that it looks good with Times (or Times New Roman)font though.
:-D Also you can do things like:
FONTENAY-S/S-BOIS
The problem with it is it's only worthwhile as a visual effect as it's so much quicker to leave it at s/s or even sous.
Not that it looks good with Times (or Times New Roman)font though.
There's always the FONT command!
Which unfortunately is not reflected in some browsers, MSIE 5.x for Mac Classic OS included. C'est la vie... That's why we have AbFab and Saffron to tell us the truth. :-(
Kings Cross Thameslink is doomed (and good riddance to that inadequate and badly sited station). The current reconstruction in the Kings Cross/St Pancras area includes replacing it with a new Thameslink 2000-compliant station, situated below St Pancras main line station, which eliminates the objectionable walk from St P to KX Thameslink. The work starts September 2004. For several months after that, Thameslink trains from the south will terminate at the present KX Thameslink station and those from the north will terminate temporarily at St Pancras main line (using, ironically, the new platforms currently being built for the Eurostar trains!). Once the new Thameslink station is built, old Kings Cross Thameslink will close, new Kings Cross Thameslink (which would more logically be called St Pancras Thameslink) will open, and the Eurostar platforms will be freed up for the start of that service in ~2007.
Missed you and your unique views.
Brits know what they are doing!
Some Brits.
The Government can bollix things there up as well as we can.
"Can't we all get along?"
I replied to you at the other branch of this thread. We can let this branch go the way of the Aldwych. :-P
You see I kinda got up early again...
We can let this branch go the way of the Aldwych. :-P
et resurrexit tertio decennio (I wish!!!)
1) It's in a particularly fashionable and flourishing area.
2) It's where all the branches of the Northern Line merge and demerge - so EVERYBODY transfers there (mostly onto the Charing X Branch).
3) The station is rather cramped.
Clerkenwell is a glaring ommission from the Underground map currently, but I would far rather see two new north-south tubes than a circle line. However, it is quite hard to identify Underground-less places in this part of North London, as opposed, say, to the Uxbridge Road.
In fact, the original Alexandra palace electrification, with an extension south of Moorgate, coupled with LT taking over the Euston-Watford DC line, also heading this south, would probably solve all the Northern Line capacity problems, especially if the Euston-Watford Line was sent underground at Hampstead and realligned, giving a better interchange with the Northern Line. I wouldn't rule out big changes in the future for the Moorgate-Finsbury Park section of GN Electrics. If Thameslink 2000 ever happens, this stub is going to see even less service.
Only if you try to merge them on a high frequency with other lines. On a completely isolated circle, it doesn't matter if it takes 28 minutes rather than 30 to get around it - you just run a service that has a frequency that's not a factor of 60.
Edware Road and Aldgate wre two of my least favourite stations simply because of various bad memories that they bring back.
Both of those stations have the problem that Circle line trains are being held to fit in with other lines.
Clerkenwell is a glaring ommission from the Underground map currently,
ITN should do a story about it ;-)
However, it is quite hard to identify Underground-less places in this part of North London, as opposed, say, to the Uxbridge Road.
A band running through Hackney, Stoke Newington and Tottenham is the real blank canvas in North London - but Thameslink 2050 should sort that.
In fact, the original Alexandra palace electrification, with an extension south of Moorgate, coupled with LT taking over the Euston-Watford DC line, also heading this south, would probably solve all the Northern Line capacity problems
It would solve all of them except the Camden Town problem (the problem that has the interesting effect that Mornington Crescent's ridership peaks on Sundays!).
Although the Northern City Line would certainly begin to help with the overcrowding in Camden Town station, it must be noted that it would probably not solve much as:
1) The Northern City Line goes to the City, not the West End. As the Camden Town problem is worse at weekends and the City is a ghost town at weekends, people will still ride via Camden Town.
2) The potential ridership it could divert is very small:
- The section from Highgate northwards has only 20 million entries/exits annually, compared to approaching 50 million for the rest of the Northern End of the Northern Line (excl Camden Town itself).
If Thameslink 2000 ever happens, this stub is going to see even less service.
TL2K is meant to take over the King's X local services, not the Moorgate ones.
Imagine that there has been a disruption at, say, Oxford Circus. Say, a five minute delay for a service that is running every three minutes. You've effectively cancelled a train and now have a queue forming. The delayed train is going to become more and more delayed, as the widening gap leads to more and more passengers at each station, which take longer and longer to load. Suppose the delay happens just after the station where the train is on standby, and it will have to go all round the circle before the problem can be fixed. In fact, any delay, even 30 seconds will have a knock-on effect, especially at peak times. You could get around this by having 40 mph capable trains schedulled to top out at 30 mph, and ATO, but its really not worth building a line with inbuilt reliability problems.
It would be interesting to know how well the Moscow Metro Circle Line works, but presumable underperforming drivers were transferred to the Siberian salt mines, or wherever.
An Alexandra palace service would help even at weekends:
Alexandra Palace-Highgate-Moorgate [6tph]
High Barnet-Highgate-Northern Line WE Branch [6tph]
Edgware-Mill Hill-Highgate-Northern Line WE Branch [6tph]
Edgware-Chalk Farm-Northern Line WE Branch [12 tph]
Edgware-Chalk Farm-Northern Line City Branch [6 tph]
[Additional weekday services: Edgware-Mill Hill-Highgate-Moorgate, and High Barnet-Highgate-Northern Line City Branch]
Now you have more trains going to where people really want to go, so there will be less need to change trains at Camden Town, which will take pressure off the station. All other difficultis can be addressed by constructing a second ticket hall at the other end of the station.
Ever been to Muswell Hill? Big place. Needs an Underground Line.
With Thameslink 2000, I predict that virtually all GN Electrics trains will go via Thameslink, with a token peak hours only diversion to Moorgate for certain trains.
I seriously doubt Edgware would need that much service. In terms of ridership, it is 42nd out of 50 on the line. If you look at the bottom ten, you'll see that five are on routes to Edgware:
41 South Wimbledon
42 Edgware
43 Brent Cross
44 Colindale
45 Burnt Oak
46 High Barnet
47 Woodside Park
48 Totteridge & Whetstone
49 West Finchley
50 Mill Hill East (no surprises there, then)
In fact, there are no stations past Finchley Central (31) and only one past Golder's Green (24), viz. Hendon Central (35), higher than 42nd. South Wimbledon, the only station South of those points on the list, has a clear 400,000 more riders annually than Edgware. You should at least substitute Golder's Green - Bank - Morden for Edgware - Bank - Morden; maybe more needs cutting.
Now you have more trains going to where people really want to go, so there will be less need to change trains at Camden Town, which will take pressure off the station. All other difficultis can be addressed by constructing a second ticket hall at the other end of the station.
Better still, an IND style full length mezz, with random stairways to the street!
Ever been to Muswell Hill? Big place. Needs an Underground Line.
I'll take your word for it. I've never been - it's rather out of the way.
With Thameslink 2000, I predict that virtually all GN Electrics trains will go via Thameslink, with a token peak hours only diversion to Moorgate for certain trains.
IINM, there's not enough capacity for them all to go via Thameslink (at least not without screwing Midland riders over).
Go on one of Jim Blake's "Northern Wastes" guided tours immediately. Not only is it fascinating seeing just how much evidence of London Transport remains on the track bed (cable runs, substation buildings, etc.), but you can see for yourself just how intact everything is and just how many people living along the route there are to use the line. It appears that London Transport decided that Ongar was a better bet than Alexandra Palace.
All off-peak GN and Midland should easily fit though the Thameslink tunnel once the signalling is improved, both inner and outer suburban.
I don't know about that - only 830,306 people entered and left Mill Hill East (weekday entries/exits: 1418/1311; Saturdays: 854/843; Sundays 431/444) last year.
The site of "The Hale" station in Mill Hill is much more densely populated than at Mill Hill East
Defnitely, but if it is rebuilt, an interchange should be made to Mill Hill Broadway to encourage people to ride North to transfer to Thameslink rather than go to King's X.
All off-peak GN and Midland should easily fit though the Thameslink tunnel once the signalling is improved, both inner and outer suburban.
It should work if I haven't missed something off this list:
OFF-PEAK FREQUENCIES:
4tph Bedford (semi-fast)
4tph Luton (stopping)
1tph Cambridge (non-stop)
1tph King's Lynn (non-stop to Cambridge)
1tph Cambridge (fast)
1tph Peterborough (fast)
1tph Cambridge (semi-fast)
1tph Peterborough (semi-fast)
3tph Welwyn GC (stopping)
2tph Hertford N (stopping)
1tph Letchworth GC (via Hertford N, stopping)
20tph TOTAL
At peak times, however, it most certainly wouldn't work:
PEAK FREQUENCIES:
13tph Midland (irregular and weird)
1tph Cambridge (fast)
2tph King's Lynn (fast to Cambridge, 1tph currently starts at Liverpool St)
2tph Peterborough (fast)
2tph Cambridge (semi-fast)
2tph Letchworth GC (semi-fast)
2tph Peterborough (semi-fast)
4tph Welwyn GC (stopping)
2tph Hertford N (stopping)
2tph Hertford N (skips a couple of random stops)
2tph Stevenage (via Hertford N, skips a couple of random stops)
34tph TOTAL
Even with all Welwyn/Hertford trains diverted into Moorgate at Peak times, there's still 2tph more than they think they can run through Thameslink.
A few peak trains could terminate at KX, but you see my point about just how marginal the Moorgate stub is going to become.
What a disaster the inner suburban GN electrification turned out to be. The tph during the peak are pathetic. What will the future bring?
Not personally, but it's in the University Library, along with such random things as plans for the Picc-Vic tunnel in Manchester (never built) and the Archer Avenue Subway (half built).
A few peak trains could terminate at KX, but you see my point about just how marginal the Moorgate stub is going to become.
Utterly.
What a disaster the inner suburban GN electrification turned out to be. The tph during the peak are pathetic. What will the future bring?
Big red double decked things with rubber tyres, no doubt.
"Big red double decked things with rubber tyres, no doubt."
I think that is unlikely. Usage of virtually all rail services in and around Greater London is growing and it is unlikely that any established electrified lines will be abandoned. However, the Piccadilly Line was extended into the same area of north London in the 1930s and took away most of those lines' traffic 30 years before they were electrified, so their low usage is hardly surprising. Presumably it gets better well beyond Cockfosters.
Incidentally, the peak frequency out of Moorgate towards Finsbury Park and beyond is every five minutes (12 tph), alternately on the two routes (Welwyn and Hertford), which doesn't seem too pathetic, though there are the usual silly skip-stops giving uneven intervals to individual stations. Middays it is every ten minutes - every twenty minutes on each route - but without skip-stops. Last departure from Moorgate is 2035; after that, and all day at weekends, everything goes out of Kings Cross and the former tube line from Finsbury Park to Moorgate has no service.
The tunnel isn't the problem. The killer for Thameslink 2000 is the Borough Market Junction-Metropolitan Junction area south of the Thames. I believe that the Thameslink 2000 plans call for 24 tph capacity through the tunnel section. The present capacity is only 8 tph; the rest of the northern end's 13 or so tph in the peak go to and from Moorgate.
Details about this walk, I found at the North London Transport Society site. Their current URL is - http://nlts.sphosting.com/index.htm?
At the home page, click on "Download Page." Then click on Events 2004 to find what I pasted in below.
In their events listing for 2004 they've divided up Jim Blake's unfinished Northern Lines tour into two parts. Here's details pasted in from the web site:
SUNDAY, 4th JULY - NORTHERN HEIGHTS 50th ANNIVERSARY MEMORIAL TOUR.
This date marks exactly the fiftieth anniversary of the closure to passengers of the Finsbury Park to Alexandra Palace branch line, which should have become a part of the London UndergrounD system in 1940, and upon which works were nearly complete with some 3,000,000 (at 1939 values!) wasted. Our traditional tour featuring the Uncompleted Northern Line Extensions this time will therefore deal entirely with this branch, in greater detail than usual. Participants should assemble at Finsbury Park Station (outside the Arsenal Shop on the corner of Seven Sisters Road) at 10.00am for 10.30 departure. Bookings MUST be made in advance due to limited number of places on the tour.
DATE TO BE ANNOUNCED - MILL HILL EAST - EDGWARE & BUSHEY HEATH - Walk and study tour of this part of the Uncompleted Northern Line Extensions, upon which much work had also been completed and subsequently thrown to waste. This part of the scheme will now be dealt with separately. Details to be finalised early in 2004.
I bought Jim Blake's Northern Wastes awhile back and it's a very good historic overview of the New Works projects that included the Finsbury Park-Alexandra Palace branch. Includes many photos of the right of way infrantructure after abandonment, and during operation up through 1954 by steam trains. Includes plans of all stations as well.
I emailed him through the site and was able to buy it directly from him. Needed to send cash though the mail - got pounds sterling from my bank, and then packed it well in a regular envelope. Airmail was only a couple of bucks extra - surface mail can take anywhere from a couple of months, to a plain old "black hole"
Also excellent is "By Tube Beyond Edgware" published by Capital Transport which deals wholly with the Mill Hill East-Edgware-Bushey Heath extension. This one is *very* detailed, beginning with 19th century plans for local railways north of Edgware and working forward. Also includes a great set of ariel photos from the 1930's of the the land from Edgware through Bushey Heath, that the entire route was supposed to be built over. (We should only have stuff like that for New York)
In Jim Blake's book he mentions passing on much of the technical details to the London Underground Railway Society for an occasional bulletin (called "Underground" I think, as opposed to their monthly "Underground News") they were doing about these branches which was suppose to focus on the technical details of the branches.
I also read mention of the same publication (no title was given) in the book they published about the "R" stock.
Does anyone from the other side of the pond (or this side?) know if this was indeed published, and if so, the actual title of this bulletin and its issue number?
Also found interesting some things mentioned in earlier posts on this thread: that Mill Hill The Hale is quite built up and populated, same too about Muswell Hill, and the mention that Underground service to Alexandra Palace would take some load off the rest of the Northern Line. Sounds as though these extensions really should have been built some 45 or so years ago.
It would be too bad if each part of the Northern Wastes walk is held more than a week apart - given time and travel that could make it difficult for most people from the States to stay longer to catch the second part...
I should have included that the Mill Hill East-Edgware-Bushey Heath extension is also covered.
Thanx! And the tour's the day before my birthday! What a treat!
I bought Jim Blake's Northern Wastes awhile back and it's a very good historic overview of the New Works projects that included the Finsbury Park-Alexandra Palace branch. Includes many photos of the right of way infrantructure after abandonment, and during operation up through 1954 by steam trains. Includes plans of all stations as well.
Sounds well worth buying. I might get it in January.
Also excellent is "By Tube Beyond Edgware" published by Capital Transport which deals wholly with the Mill Hill East-Edgware-Bushey Heath extension. This one is *very* detailed, beginning with 19th century plans for local railways north of Edgware and working forward. Also includes a great set of ariel photos from the 1930's of the the land from Edgware through Bushey Heath, that the entire route was supposed to be built over. (We should only have stuff like that for New York)
Yeah, I've got it. It's a great book! I wish the LU scheme had got to Watford. That would've been useful.
It would be too bad if each part of the Northern Wastes walk is held more than a week apart - given time and travel that could make it difficult for most people from the States to stay longer to catch the second part...
Get away - there's plenty to do for at least two weeks in da UK!
Of course there's plenty to do in the UK ;-)
.... I was thinking in terms of the possible limitations on one's length of stay when they are on a budget
Then join the YHA - cheapest places to stay in Britain!
I am a member of the LURS but don't have details to hand. I will see what I can track down in the new year. If it has an ISSN or ISBN number than I may be able to order a copy through the British Libray
"TL2K is meant to take over the King's X local services, not the Moorgate ones"
That is true, in the current plans. However, once tracks exist that can bring trains from the local tracks of the GN main line on to the Thameslink line, customer pressure from users of the GN-line inner suburban services will start to build to abandon the unpopular Moorgate route and use Thameslink instead. As has been noticed elsewhere in this thread, traffic to The City has been dwindling relative to the West End traffic for many years.
Elsewhere in this thread you have quoted ridership data for various underground stations. I would like to know the source of your data, and if possible how to get a copy of it, and also any available ridership data for suburban rail stations.
Which London underground lines are considered the most crowded? Aren't the east-west lines, especially the Central, more crowded than the north-south lines? Wasn't that the justification for building Crossrail One before Crossrail Two?
As I see it, a circle would have two advantages:
1) it being effectively two new lines for the price of one
2) not having to get under the Thames, thus avoiding the biggest expense of North-South lines
Elsewhere in this thread you have quoted ridership data for various underground stations. I would like to know the source of your data, and if possible how to get a copy of it,
Follow this link. Then click the Customer Metrics tab on the left, then the Entries & Exits tab at the top. Last time I checked, the station names for DLR stations were also there, but they had no data associated with them.
and also any available ridership data for suburban rail stations.
I wish.
Which London underground lines are considered the most crowded? Aren't the east-west lines, especially the Central, more crowded than the north-south lines? Wasn't that the justification for building Crossrail One before Crossrail Two?
There are no per line loading figures.
The ones that are generally thought most crowded are:
- Central
- Northern (Charing X)
- Victoria
The ones that are generally thought least crowded are the subsurface lines, especially the District Line. Basically one East-West Line is overloaded, the others are turning trains short at the East end.
I have an alternative scheme to Crossrail Line 1 that would reduce loadings on the Central Line, which I shall put up over the next day or so.
Wasn't that the justification for building Crossrail One before Crossrail Two?
They seemed to think that the N-S direction would get TL2K, so they should do something for the E-W direction too (and built a justification upon that and more of Canary Wharf's worthless promises of money). Whether it will work is another matter.
Thanks also for your appraisal of the relative crowding of each line; that's most interesting and puts things into perspective.
Regarding your proposed circle line, I am not sure why crossing the river would be more expensive than any other tunneling.
Two issues:
- more serious waterproofing of the excavation is needed
- the geology South of the Thames makes building tunnels difficult
Phase I
Phase II
There's a bit of blurb about it on my website here.
I see that the official "preferred route" now has two branches to the east (Shenfield and Ebbsfleet) and two branches to the west (Kingston and Heathrow). I am pleased that they have chosen just two branches at each end, and that the branches do not extend too far afield, which should make it easy to operate, at least compared with Thameslink 2000.
The main problem with the official plan is that it is very expensive, at 10 billion pounds in round numbers, and nobody wants to foot the bill. But if you can devise a cheaper plan that achieves the same goals, then you may have a winner.
Your plan only covers Marble Arch to Liverpool Street and Shenfield, so I suppose the rest of your plan is "unrealistic".
In your phase one, I question the need for a new four-track line between Liverpool Street and Holborn, because it seems to me that a two-track line would provide the extra capacity needed. Also your Central line diversion to the four-track route, and partial replacement by a shuttle, would be unpopular with users of existing Central line stations in this section. If you were content to build a two-track relief line in phase one, leaving the Central line intact, it would resemble the official Crossrail plan, and it would achieve your main objective to relieve overcrowding. Your secondary objective, an interchange with Thameslink, which is less important, could be achived at lower cost by building a new station at Holborn Viaduct on the Central line.
The official Crossrail plan does not stop at Oxford Circus, because it is thought to be too difficult and too expensive to build another line and station there. Instead they plan a station with exits at Bond Street and Hanover Square. Phase two of your plan would encounter the same difficulties, except that it might be easier with smaller tunnels. I note that instead of the officially proposed full-sized tunnels, to be operated by main line suburban trains with overhead electrification, you specify fourth-rail with a view to integration into the Central line, so I presume you would run tube trains to Shenfield. I can see nothing wrong with tube trains running on the slow line to Shenfield, but I look forward to seeing the rest of your plan.
The Ebbsfleet branch is TfL being led up the garden path by Canary Wharf again. It costs a ridiculous amount and should be removed from the project.
Kingston appeared at a late stage as they were clutching at straws to try and work out what to do with the trains in West London. Heathrow appears because airports are sexy, apparently.
The only real aims are to improve service on the Shenfield Line and reduce overcrowding on the Central Line.
I question the need for a new four-track line between Liverpool Street and Holborn, because it seems to me that a two-track line would provide the extra capacity needed. Also your Central line diversion to the four-track route, and partial replacement by a shuttle, would be unpopular with users of existing Central line stations in this section. If you were content to build a two-track relief line in phase one, leaving the Central line intact, it would resemble the official Crossrail plan, and it would achieve your main objective to relieve overcrowding.
The 4-track section is the most important part of my plan. If it were only 2-track, then the through traffic from East of Liverpool St to West of Holborn would still be on the same trains as those going to/from Bank and they would still be overcrowded. There needs to be a separation of traffic. The only way it could be reduced to 2 track would be by removing the Shenfield Line entirely, which would fail at the other half of the scheme.
Your secondary objective, an interchange with Thameslink, which is less important, could be achived at lower cost by building a new station at Holborn Viaduct on the Central line.
I believe there's a problem just at that point in that the Central line is switching from EB over WB to WB over EB.
The official Crossrail plan does not stop at Oxford Circus, because it is thought to be too difficult and too expensive to build another line and station there.
Perfectly simple - build the station directly below the Central Line station (it's just rock there) - put in escalators up to the Central Line platforms and that's that. It'd be about 100ft deep, but that's no deeper than the lower platform at Notting Hill Gate.
Instead they plan a station with exits at Bond Street and Hanover Square.
That's because Crossrail are trying to build Main Line size stations, not Tube size ones. I'm suggesting that it be compatible with the Central Line - the trains may have slightly smaller capacity, but it makes the geometry much easier.
Okay, Rail Blue. Now that you have clearly identified the real problem, here is counter-proposal that should, I think, solve that problem at a lower cost. And I even have a name for it: the "Fleet Line".
The line would run from Green Park to Gidea Park, stopping at Charing Cross, Aldwych, Ludgate Circus, Bank, Liverpool Street, Stratford, and all stations to Gidea Park. Abandoned parts of the Fleet line from Green Park to the Strand, including Charing Cross station, would be brought into use.
As in your plan, the tube would "capture" the local lines from Liverpool Street to Gidea Park, which would be converted to fourth-rail. I am not keen on continuing to Shenfield because it seems too long a distance for comfort in an all-stops tube train.
If possible there would be escalator connections from Aldwych to Temple and from Ludgate Circus to City Thameslink.
The new and different route would attract a good many people away from the Central line, providing the needed relief.
All the vested interests would militate against it, but I agree that it's a great idea. Do we get the Aldwych shuttle back?
I am not keen on continuing to Shenfield because it seems too long a distance for comfort in an all-stops tube train.
Actually it's not too long a distance. Epping to Stratford takes 29 minutes, Shenfield to Stratford takes 33. When you consider the non-stop section Stratford to Liverpool St, it all sounds just fine. Of course a nice comfortable stock with lots of transverse seats would be a good idea!
The line would run from Green Park to Gidea Park
Why stop at Green Park? Why not go to Stanmore and use the (already built) crossover to cut the Jubilee Line back to Waterloo? Okay, it would really show up what an utter boondoggle the JLE was, but we knew that already.
You could also do something to rationalise West Hampstead station. A connector should be built so that the Fleet Line can take over the NLL to Richmond (Stanmore doesn't need all the trains). Thameslink should be brought into the station complex and Orbirail should happen (ELL-NLL-WLL-SLL-ELL).
The new and different route would attract a good many people away from the Central line, providing the needed relief.
You're probably right. Having two routes Stratford - Bank is the main thing, but there may be problems in fitting anything more into the Bank site.
Thanks R.B. I know that you have advocated the Fleet line in the past, and this is just a variation of it. I suppose the vested interests are those who decided to build the Jubilee Line Extension, who would suffer loss of face.
Do we get the Aldwych shuttle back?
The Aldwych shuttle would have to remain a shuttle, and I doubt that the Fleet line would make much difference to its low ridership, unlike the old Kingsway tram subway which was no mere shuttle but really went places!
Epping to Stratford takes 29 minutes, Shenfield to Stratford takes 33.
Both are long rides, but Epping has no choice. About one third of Shenfield line trains short turn at Gidea Park, which seems a reasonable stopping point. Anywhere outside the M25 is really too far for a tube line IMO.
Why not go to Stanmore and use the (already built) crossover to cut the Jubilee Line back to Waterloo?
But then the JLE from Green Park to Waterloo would be abandoned, including the stop at Westminster of all places, which would be the worst possible political embarrasment.
Besides I don't think the JLE is entirely useless. Its best hope is more development on the South Bank, and I see signs of that, including Europe's tallest skyscraper at London Bridge station. I would prefer to keep the JLE running to Green Park and have one or other line (Fleet or JLE) continue to Stanmore. The other line could have a loop terminal at Green Park.
You could also do something to rationalise West Hampstead station.
Chiltern Railways has a plan for a transfer between all four lines (Chiltern, Thameslink, Jubilee and Metropolitan) and they're not waiting for Government funding. I don't know what LU thinks of this, but it wouldn't benefit the Metropolitan line much.
the Fleet Line can take over the NLL to Richmond
But the areas from West Hampstead to Richmond are already served by the Bakerloo, Central, Piccadilly and District lines.
but there may be problems in fitting anything more into the Bank site.
Yes I can see that, but it should be done if at all possible in order to get the prime City destination with the best transfers. Looking at the three-dimensional station diagrams (see here), there may be room at the deepest level, just beyond the end of the Docklands Light Railway overrun tunnel; or that tunnel might have to be moved out of the way.
You can always blame the other side for building it in the first place, regardless of which side you're on ;-)
Anyway, it's a lightly used duplicate of existing lines. Okay, I suspect that ridership at Southwark would plummet (and it's already one of the least used stations in Zone 1) and maybe that could close too.
The Eastern end's ridership will take a severe knocking too when DLR opens through from Canning Town to Stratford International (I say continue from there to Dalston and say bye bye Silverlink!). JLE would then be looking like the lamest of lame ducks and could be shot.
With the H&C diverted to New X / New X Gate to serve Canada Water, the 4 tracking of those 13 chains on the SE Main Line, no-one would even notice whether JLE existed or not.
The Aldwych shuttle would have to remain a shuttle, and I doubt that the Fleet line would make much difference to its low ridership, unlike the old Kingsway tram subway which was no mere shuttle but really went places!
Actually, that gives me an idea. Extend DLR to Holborn! From Tower Gateway, run elevated over / alongside the A3211 then turn up the tram tunnel to Holborn, with stations at Gt Tower St, King William St, Cannon St, Blackfriars, Temple, Aldwych and Holborn. Okay, it wouldn't use the old Aldwych tube station, but it'd be a WAY better service. It would also solve the problem of uneven loadings Bank vs Tower Gateway.
Chiltern Railways has a plan for a transfer between all four lines (Chiltern, Thameslink, Jubilee and Metropolitan) and they're not waiting for Government funding. I don't know what LU thinks of this, but it wouldn't benefit the Metropolitan line much.
It would hugely boost Metropolitan Line peak ridership as people from the Neasden Jct - Aynho Jct Line transfer to go to the City.
But the areas from West Hampstead to Richmond are already served by the Bakerloo, Central, Piccadilly and District lines.
I meant as a replacement for Silverlink. The line serves quite distinct parts of Acton from the other lines, so it should compliment existing services. An extra station could be built for transfer to the Central Line at North Acton.
Yes I can see that, but it should be done if at all possible in order to get the prime City destination with the best transfers. Looking at the three-dimensional station diagrams (see here), there may be room at the deepest level, just beyond the end of the Docklands Light Railway overrun tunnel; or that tunnel might have to be moved out of the way.
There looks like there's space above the Northern Line, closer to Monument than Bank. However, that diagram doesn't show everything that's underground there (like Bank vaults).
An elevated line through the City! I like elevated lines too, but building one in the City would meet with a whole lot more opposition than from the Docklands. Otherwise why didn't they extend the Docklands Light Railway to the Bank as an elevated line.
people from the Neasden Jct - Aynho Jct Line transfer to go to the City.
I don't know where Aynho Jct is, but Chiltern line riders would benefit by transferring at West Hampstead to the Metropolitan.
no-one would even notice whether JLE existed or not.
Once a service has been provided it becomes almost impossible to take it away. Consider for instance the outcry when Thameslink 2000 threatened to shut down the Thameslink service from Farringdon to Moorgate, causing a handful of commuters to change trains at Farringdon. This was the usual case in which the public good takes second place to vocal special interests.
So how did they get away with shutting down the Fleet line, with an ideally located station at Charing Cross, in order to build the Jubilee Line Extension? What special interests were so powerful as to trump the Fleet line riders? I think it had something to do with the year 2000 celebrations. So they squandered billions on the JLE and now they cannot afford to build worthwhile projects. Short-term gain = long-term pain.
Why? Nobody lives there and anything would make the A3211 (Thames St / Embankment) look better.
I don't know where Aynho Jct is,
It's between Bicester and Banbury, where the lines from Marylebone and from Oxford merge. NAJ is the chaining code for Neasden Jct to Aynho Jct.
Once a service has been provided it becomes almost impossible to take it away.
Agreed, but that doesn't mean that a token service can't run between Stratford or West Ham and Waterloo, say:
M-F Peak 6tph
M-F Between Peaks 4tph
Sat 4tph
Service finishes at 2000, no Sunday service.
So how did they get away with shutting down the Fleet line, with an ideally located station at Charing Cross, in order to build the Jubilee Line Extension? What special interests were so powerful as to trump the Fleet line riders? I think it had something to do with the year 2000 celebrations.
Two factors - firstly, as you say, the Millennium Tent; secondly, a vacuous promise of funds from the owners of Canary Wharf. Unfortunately Canary Wharf's promise isn't enforceable in law, or I'd say sue them for the cost of the Fleet Line!
Short-term gain = long-term pain.
JLE is a disaster. It simply has swindled London out of a useful line by building a total boondoggle. You know how expensive one river tube is - well they built a total of four pairs!
Romford is about the limit that tube trains should be sent to, simply because of housing density. You get the most bang for your buck extending to here and no further. Southend trains can easily absorb Brentwood etc.
My own revived Fleet Line extends west to Knightsbridge, High Street Kensington, Olympia, Acton Vale, and the South Harrow branch, ending Piccadilly Line operating difficulties by allowing it to concentrate on Heathrow. In the east, it swings up from Fleet Street to take back the Northern City Line.
Aldwych shuttle becomes the new "Kingsway Line": Waterloo-Euston-Watford Junction.
We were looking for a cheap substitute for Crossrail One, on the assumption that it is too expensive ever to be built.
"Rail Blue" James has identified the most important problems to be solved by Crossrail One as "to improve service on the Shenfield Line and reduce overcrowding on the Central Line".
The Shenfield line has 16 TPH peak including short turns at Ilford and Gidea Park, the most TPH for any suburban line, so I am not sure what the real problem is. There are many skip-stop trains which may limit TPH and complicate operation. Possibly the Shenfield line service could be improved by eliminating skip-stops and running more trains, or by running longer trains; I think 8-car suburban trains are the norm but I don't know the platform lengths. But perhaps there are dwell-time problems or terminal capacity problems. I would like to know more about the Shenfield line from someone familiar with it, Max!
Regardless of the Shenfield line, it is widely agreed that the Central line is seriously overcrowded, and I have heard that it is worst in the stretch through Liverpool Street between Stratford and the West End. Please correct me if I am wrong about this.
The Waterloo & City "drain" has sharp bends and steep slopes on each side of the river crossing, and the 4-car platforms are too short for a high capacity line whose main purpose would be to relieve east-west overcrowding.
But I do like the Blackfriars stop, which would connect with the District line. My route assumed that escalator connections could be built from Ludgate Circus to City Thameslink and from Aldwych to Temple, both of which are quite a stretch. Ludgate Circus would be more convenient for more people who work in that area, but Blackfriars has the better connections.
Skip stopping has almost aways been thec ase - helping keep loading imbalances down on some of the trains.
All this stuff is "interesting" - but with the economics of the rail industry at the moment there is absolutly no chance of much above refurbishing, resignalling and controlling costs of privatisation.Try reading "Modern Railways" this month for a reality check.
PS - Whats the point of daydreaming about Watford tube extensions - ever travelled on the Met line which boasts the emptiest 8 car trains in London - let alone the Watford DC which north of Harrow has a load factor of about 50% on 3 car trains.No wonder the Crossrial option "failed" - probably a deliberate red herring .
Tubes are distributors in zones 1 to 3 basically - none wants to sit on an all stations tube car from 19 miles out (no one sane that is!)
The Geography has changed - and commuting has leapt the Green Belt from about 1966 onwards with main line electrification - the next urban development phase will be the Milton Keynes etc area as in local planning discusions now - as well as some modest inner London regeneration.Thats what ought to be considered.
Thanks for that information. So I wonder why they only run 16 TPH peak. Skipping stops means irregular intervals and lower TPH, but perhaps another reason to skip stops is to reduce operating costs.
access to and from the E lines
Sorry but I don't know which the E lines are and I would prefer not to guess.
at the moment there is absolutly no chance of much above refurbishing, resignalling and controlling costs of privatisation. Try reading "Modern Railways" this month for a reality check.
I admit that my partial understanding is gleaned from a distance via the net, and I would welcome an up-to-date on-the-spot reality check. But based on official sources, the Crossrail project is still being planned, the route has been chosen, and funding is sought from the private sector but has not yet been found. Peter Field, director of TfL Rail, (see here), predicts "third world overcrowding" if Crossrail, Thameslink 2000 and the ELLX are not built by 2011.
What's the point of daydreaming about Watford tube extensions
There is a lot of daydreaming in this forum. It is a harmless pastime and some people actually enjoy it.
My own dreams are aimed at solving important problems for a reasonable cost. It seems to me that Crossrail is is too expensive and needs to be cut down to size, and that is why some of us have been trying to dream up a cheaper and more cost-effective solution that would solve only the most serious problems. Watford tube extensions are not among my dreams, and IMO any such extensions would be a waste of money, so I am pleased that those options have been eliminated from the Crossrail plans.
the next urban development phase will be the Milton Keynes etc area as in local planning discusions now - as well as some modest inner London regeneration.Thats what ought to be considered.
That's an important and forward-looking point of view, and I agree that it is well worth considering. But just what potential problems do you think will need to be solved? Milton Keynes is one of several "new towns" planned in the immediate post-war era, and those new towns were supposed to have their own industries rather than become dormitory suburbs needing frequent commuter rail services. I am not sure to what extent things have panned out that way, or if there has been a change of policy.
Skipping stops is a particularly dumb product of the funding formulae for this privatised excuse for a railway. It's also a way of guaranteeing local riders don't use the train. There is absolutely no need for skipping stops on the Shenfield Line, as it is an entirely 4 track alignment with a large amount of express service.
Milton Keynes is one of several "new towns" planned in the immediate post-war era, and those new towns were supposed to have their own industries rather than become dormitory suburbs needing frequent commuter rail services. I am not sure to what extent things have panned out that way, or if there has been a change of policy.
Things most definitely have not panned out that way, but government won't change it's idiotic policies anyway.
And on the subject of Milton Keynes: no Birmingham/Wolverhampton trains leaving Euston between 1600 and 2200 should stop there. Commuters are taking long distance riders' seats. The connection to Silverlink should be offered at Rugby instead.
Who determines the funding formula? The Strategic Rail Authority? Is there a different funding formula for each line?
There is absolutely no need for skipping stops on the Shenfield Line
By not skipping stops you can schedule equal headways, so you could run 20 TPH instead of the present 16. By extending trains to 12 cars from their present length (8 cars?), you would get a further increase in capacity.
Liverpool Street to Shenfield line capacities in Cars Per Hour (CPH):
-- with skip stops (present peak service) = 16 TPH x 8 = 128 CPH
-- without skip-stops = 20 TPH x 8 = 160 CPH
-- without skip-stops and with 12 car trains = 20 TPH x 12 = 240 CPH
However under Crossrail there would be 24 TPH x 12 = 288 CPH split between two branches. To make full use of the Shenfield line, the Shenfield branch of Crossrail would need 20 trains out of 24, which seems highly unlikely. I conclude that the Shenfield line could have plenty of capacity without Crossrail, but not so much with Crossrail. SRA policy is to make full use of the existing lines before building new ones, but in this case (one of the worst) that has not happened yet.
A cheaper alternative to the official CLRL Crossrail has been proposed by a consortium called "London Regional Metro". See here. The core route is the same but the branches are different or missing.
Yep. They charge TOCs for stopping at stations. This leads to a tendency to jackassed service patterns and cancelling the stopping train.
I conclude that the Shenfield line could have plenty of capacity without Crossrail, but not so much with Crossrail.
You're right.
A cheaper alternative to the official CLRL Crossrail has been proposed by a consortium called "London Regional Metro".
It's a better proposal. As well as the GW Main Line at Oxford it connects to the WCML at Watford. However, it again has unnecessary fragmentation in the east (this time not going to the Dogs, but to Stansted).
Of course, a Heathrow - Stansted service could and should operate without Crossrail. It would merely require a new curve from the Gospel Oak to Barking Line onto one or other of the Great Eastern lines in Tottenham.
Original 1990s Crossrail had a problem with the Shenfield line in that 24 TPH was too much - couldent get to Southend Victoria (not enough money in budget for more than 63 trains) - couldent get across Forest Gate Junction towards Barking in the peak.! Nowehere to run in other words.Note the planning assumed abstraction of folk from the Newbury Park etc area to the "E" lines (which are the slow lines from Liverpool St to Shenfield) - E for "Electric".
Original Xrail had a curve reinstatement at Hall Farm Rd - north of Lea Bridge and plans for a flyover at Pudding Mill Lane - this would have given 12 TPH to the Chingford Line and relieved the Victoria line to some extent.Demand estimated to be low though.
This flyover would assist a Heathrow - Stanstead service but this would take the long route rather than changing to an expess at Liverpool Street.Not sure how much inter airport traffic there is -0 though as "double destinations and Central area distributors" such a service would do well.
Too much in what sense? That they couldn't be turned at Shenfield or Gidea Park or that it's just overkill in terms of sheer amount of service?
As I understand it, it is the Eastern end that is the pressure for 24tph. The Western end could quite easily run half that:
- 3tph Slough
- 3tph Reading via Slough
- 3tph Heathrow (remember, there's a good mile of single tracking on the Airport Line)
- 3tph Watford
So, there'd be nothing wrong with cutting it to 20tph or even 16tph or 12tph.
What might work (although it would need some track doubling and IINM electrification) would be 12tph Shenfield, 12tph Upminster via Romford.
couldent get to Southend Victoria (not enough money in budget for more than 63 trains)
Seeing as the budget's now gone up, they should reconsider.
couldent get across Forest Gate Junction towards Barking in the peak.!
As if you'd even want to.
Original Xrail had a curve reinstatement at Hall Farm Rd - north of Lea Bridge and plans for a flyover at Pudding Mill Lane
More use to have alternate Victoria Line trains to Chingford and Barking and to build a Chelsea - Hackney Line.
This flyover would assist a Heathrow - Stanstead service but this would take the long route rather than changing to an expess at Liverpool Street.
May be the long route, but it's clear of local traffic and Stratford will be a huge plus point after CTRL.
There has. Recent government policy decisions about the siting of new housing in the "southeast" give MK a major share of the new houses, even though it isn't really in the southeast (South Midlands, more like). However, it is true that it is a major employment centre, and in fact it is short of labour at present, drawing in workers (by car!) from a wide area around. It is in the middle of the "arc" bewteen Oxford and Cambridge, probably the UK's most prosperous area, which only underlines the tragedy of the loss of the Oxford-Cambridge railway line. This needs to be reinstated (but serving MKC instead of Bletchley station in MK); however, there are several big problems around that idea, notably how to get it in and out of MKC, and and how to organise a crossing over the East Coast main line without disrupting the latter. Oh, and finding the money (8-) . If sensible connections with the East Coast, the Midland, and the West Coast main lines could be arranged, it would be a major boon to England as a whole.
On the South East England Regional Assembly web site a map shows that Milton Keynes is one of four areas considered suitable for "mass transit" in that region, the others being Luton, Bedford and Northampton.
Several "potential new passenger rail routes" are also shown, and the main lines are marked for "potential upgrades".
But according to the report: "4.31 Within the study area, we do not consider that there will be sufficient growth in population and employment over the next 30 years to sustain light rail-based systems. "
What they actually mean by "mass transit":
4.32 Luton & Dunstable: guided bus system planned.
4.33 Northampton: guided bus systems proposed.
4.34 Milton Keynes: "a bus-based mass transit system ... could be viable ".
4.35 Bedford: "a bus-based rapid transit system could be viable ".
"4.32 Luton & Dunstable: guided bus system planned.
4.33 Northampton: guided bus systems proposed.
4.34 Milton Keynes: "a bus-based mass transit system ... could be viable ".
4.35 Bedford: "a bus-based rapid transit system could be viable ".
These four towns actually form (more or less) one metropolitan region, which is probably the fastest-growing in England at the present time. I actually live in Bedford, the smallest of the four towns. Luton/Dunstable probably has the best public transport of the four, and Bedford the worst (mostly because it the buses are run by Stagecoach). Milton Keynes was designed for the car and is thus more like an modern American city than anywhere else in England. (Except that it has hundreds of roundabouts - traffic circles.) The biggest rail transport problem is that the region is served by two north-south main lines out of London (Luton and Bedford out of St Pancras, Milton Keynes and Northampton out of Euston), but there is no east-west rail transport except the antiquated Bedford-Bletchley line, the remnant of the old Oxford-Cambridge line. This has an hourly service (not Sundays), but it is frequently cancelled due to staff shortages, and thus little used.
Sadly, it is probably true that there is little chance of any rail rapid transit being built in this region. A comprehensive LRT system throughout the region would be great, but it isn't going to happen.
MKC is a good 20 minute hike from the centre of MK. It would make no difference if all the trains stopped at Bletchley instead - the main station would still be nowhere near the middle. This is the best known design fault of MK as a "new town".
and and how to organise a crossing over the East Coast main line without disrupting the latter.
There is/was a flyover at the North end of Sandy station.
If sensible connections with the East Coast, the Midland, and the West Coast main lines could be arranged, it would be a major boon to England as a whole.
It might be more useful to run to Buckingham, Brackley, and Banbury rather than Oxford after Verney Junction, but any such route would be extremely useful. Something would also have to be done about capacity in Bedford Midland station, so that there's not the issue of getting between Midland and St John's. Perhaps a slightly out of centre interchange at Kempston & Elstow would be a good idea.
That's only true because the District Line runs 6 car trains.
The Geography has changed - and commuting has leapt the Green Belt from about 1966 onwards with main line electrification - the next urban development phase will be the Milton Keynes etc area as in local planning discusions now - as well as some modest inner London regeneration.
The Greenbelt is the most jackassed policy of the last 50 years. The ridership North of Harrow & Wealdstone may be so bad because no-one's allowed to build their house there.
These arguments are really not sustainable in the light of simple evidence: ridership and Ordnance Survey maps.
On the Piccadilly Line, ridership is high right up to the end of Zone 4, Southgate and Arnos Grove have higher ridership than Stevenage southwards.
Oakwood and Cockfosters are also high when you consider that the housing density is lower. Cockfosters is on the edge of London, has a massive depot next door (depots have to go somewhere, and people can't live at depots), likewise Oakwood. Oakwood beats every station south of Stevenage according to my (admittedly 1991) figures, at 3000 entries per day. High Barnet does too, even Woodside Park, each also with 3000 entries.
People use the Underground as long as they live there. They don't use Watford Met because they don't live there. They would use Watford DC because there is a large population centre there (Bushy) with no other rail services available.
Why do people use the Underground? Simple. Frequent services and the high likelihood of a one-seat (or one-stand) ride. What is the point of getting to Kings Cross or Euston quickly if you then have to battle onto the tube, adding ten minutes to your journey in the process? I'll bet thet getting into London, every single passenger at High Barnet, Totterisge, Cochfosters, and Oakwood gets a seat all of the way.
In 1917 when there was no effective main line service - then lines like the DC had a point - end to end traffic is virtually nil - being more of a series of flows into nodal or transfer points - Queens Park / Harrow and Watford.
The urban frontier is now well beyond - Tring pre War ,Bletchley in 1966 , now Northampton - Milton Keynes and the West Midlands.In this scenario - the tube is only a Central area distributor apart from a few mature suburbs .....how many empty seats per ratio of those provided all day to the route ends like Amersham / High Barnet or even Harrow on the Bakerloo.?
You ????
Me? PhD in psychology specialising in intelligence and logical fallacies that people make when reasoning, including "experts". 30 publications to date in learned journals and still counting. I am also an expert at statistical analysis as part of the job and have written a university level text books on research design and analysis.
Don't hide behind your credentials, if you can't come up with ridership statistics to back up your arguments then they are completely irrelevant to me.
Spoken like a true academic...
Exactly - which is why suggestions of cutting Milton Keynes Central stops out of long-distance trains' schedules are ill-conceived. All expresses in and out of Euston should stop at MKC, and in the long term connections east and west of MKC need improving. The plans for the further expansion of MK are major, probably it will have a population over half a million (bigger than greater Leicester or greater Nottingham) within the next 20 years.
That's a joke. Even Milton Keynes' greatest fans are only pushing for an expansion to about 400,000. Realistically, I don't see it even reaching 260,000.
If we were serious about putting the new housing in the SE in a sustainable position, Milton Keynes would not be it. There a places much better located for London with a lot of free land, for instance:
- Addington
- Aldborough Hatch
- Banstead
- Barkingside
- Barnet
- Beddington
- Beddington Corner
- Biggin Hill
- Bowmans
- Bricket Wood
- Burhill
- Chelsfield
- Chessington
- Chigwell
- Chipstead
- Chislehurst
- Claygate
- Cockfosters
- Coldblow
- Cowley (Middlesex)
- Cranford
- Crayford
- Creekmouth
- Crockenhill
- Crowlands
- East Ewell
- Edgwarebury
- Elstree
- Esher (okay, this one's political suicide)
- Eynsford
- Fairlop
- Farnborough (Kent)
- Farningham
- Feltham
- Grange Hill
- Hackbridge
- Harlington
- Harmondsworth
- Harrow Weald
- Hatch End
- Hatton
- Hayes (Kent)
- Hersham
- Hextable
- Hillingdon
- Hinchley Wood
- Hockendon
- Hornchurch
- Horton (Epsom)
- Horton Kirby
- Joyce Green
- Kenley
- Keston
- Kevingtown
- King's Langley
- Leavesden (including a disused aerodrome)
- Little Heath
- Locksbottom
- Long Ditton
- Longlands
- Mill Hill
- North Looe
- Northolt
- Oakwood
- Old Bexley
- Park Langley
- Park Royal
- Pield Heath
- Radlett
- Rainham
- Ruxley
- Sewardstone
- Shepperton
- Sipson
- Stanmore
- Stratford
- Stockley Park
- Sunbury
- Sutton-at-Hone
- Swanley
- Thamesmead East
- Tolworth
- Totteridge
- Upminster
- Upper Halliford
- Uxbridge
- Waltham Abbey
- Waltham Cross
- Warlingham
- West Bedfont
- West Drayton
- West Ham
- Willesden
- Wilmington
- Woodcote (Carshalton)
- Woodcote (Epsom)
- Woodmansterne
- Yiewsley
If your goal to is have everyone live "a sustainable position" (meaning in or near London), you can build in all those places. But concentrating so many more people in one city would surely result in even more congestion and even longer journeys to work.
An article titled "Choices for Crossrail" in Railway Technology (Oct 2003) is quite scathing about the Kingston and Ebsfleet branches.
Kingston branch: not much demand for it, would disrupt existing services, use flat junctions at Richmond and require third rail and a new tunnel. Also undermines the case for Crossrail Two.
Docklands Thames Gateway development lobby had Woolwich and Plumstead added, but that would disrupt existing service and could be better served at lower cost by a branch of the Jubilee line.
Best solution: Focus on one corridor at each end. Keep to 25 Kv AC lines. Build no unnecessary tunnels.
I think the author's arguments are sound. In the east, let Crossrail serve the slow lines from Liverpool Street. In the west, let Crossrail serve the slow lines from Paddington.
Trouble is that, for relief of overcrowding, there are many good destinations to the east but not many to the west. I agree that Shenfield is the best destination. They should build the eastern part of the line first, to serve the Shenfield line only. According to the City Corporation, Central line overcrowding is at its worst between the City and Stratford, i.e. east of the City.
To the west, I don't see why Crossrail cannot simply take over the Paddington slow lines from Thames Trains, leaving the Paddington fast lines to First Great Western and the Heathrow Express. I don't understand why there is talk of six-tracking the line from Paddington to Heathrow Airport Junction. There are not enough TPH to necessitate that.
It would make a lot more sense for Crossrail to serve High Wycombe (by using dedicated tracks alongside the Chiltern Line) and give people from Birmingham a faster ride. Oh and I don't get why anyone wants to screw up the South Western anyway.
Docklands Thames Gateway development lobby had Woolwich and Plumstead added, but that would disrupt existing service and could be better served at lower cost by a branch of the Jubilee line.
Or by putting a DLR branch on the proposed Thames Gateway Bridge. Thamesmead may, however, give the grey elephant JLE a point.
Trouble is that, for relief of overcrowding, there are many good destinations to the east but not many to the west.
The West should probably be fragmented. Trains can also be turned using the Greenford loop. A sensible service pattern might be:
- 3tph Reading
- 3tph Slough
- 3tph Greenford Loop ACW
- 3tph Greenford Loop CW
- 6tph High Wycombe (on dedicated tracks, freeing up capacity on the Chiltern Line and replacing Central Line service)
- 3tph Watford Junction
- 3tph Harrow & Wealdstone
To the west, I don't see why Crossrail cannot simply take over the Paddington slow lines from Thames Trains, leaving the Paddington fast lines to First Great Western and the Heathrow Express. I don't understand why there is talk of six-tracking the line from Paddington to Heathrow Airport Junction. There are not enough TPH to necessitate that.
I suspect it all comes down to crap signalling on the slow lines. I don't get quite how they think they could ever want much more capacity on the Fast Lines - there's a mile long section of single tracking on the Airport Line, pegging Heathrow Express at its current service level, plus there's a hell of a lot more train paths in and out of Pad these days now light engines aren't running between Old Oak Common depot and Fast trains in the station any more.
It would make a lot more sense for Crossrail to serve High Wycombe (by using dedicated tracks alongside the Chiltern Line) and give people from Birmingham a faster ride.
6tph High Wycombe (on dedicated tracks, freeing up capacity on the Chiltern Line and replacing Central Line service)
I have mixed feelings about that idea. There is a tunnel to duplicate and a few viaducts. I used to live near the viaduct that now crosses over the M25. Sometimes I walked over the viaduct to get to school in Gerrards Cross.
Some stations have four tracks, allowing fast trains to pass slow ones. You might get a faster ride to Birmingham, but replacing the Central line would slow the local service to High Wycombe. I really don't see the need to replace the Central line in the west, but if you did it would take more than 6 TPH.
Watford may be a good direction; not the fourth rail DC line but the slow 25 KV AC line to Milton Keynes. It could stop at Wembley Central, Harrow & Wealdstone and anywhere else with platforms on that line.
Trains can also be turned using the Greenford loop.
The Greenford loop itself might not generate much traffic, but it is a place to turn trains, and it would boost the service to Ealing Broadway. Greenford is branch off the slow lines; you don't need a complete loop. Platforms are probably very short.
there's a mile long section of single tracking on the Airport Line
The extension to Terminal 5 is to have two tracks, putting more load on the fast tracks, but they should still have capacity.
The City wants Heathrow included, but I don't see how unless Crossrail shares tracks with Heathrow Express.
I suspect it all comes down to crap signalling on the slow lines.
Then they should resignal the Paddington slow line to Crossrail standards when the line is electrified for Crossrail.
So I say Reading, Milton Keynes, probably Greenford, and possibly Heathrow.
Note. "The official application to Parliament is timetabled for November next year [2004] with construction starting in 2007. Trains should be running by 2013." Source Railwatch Oct 2003.
I haven't had the opportunity to ride to London from Birmingham since August - IINM, the tunnels are at Saunderton and Sudbury, neither of which is between Wycombe and Northolt. Much of the ROW is wide enough for 4 tracks (so it's just a matter of chopping down the trees and putting the underbridges in - yes, the M25 one is the biggie). The squeeze would come on the approach to Wycombe, where the land drops of sharply on the South-West side of the line.
Some stations have four tracks, allowing fast trains to pass slow ones.
Not a hell of a lot of use unless you want a 6 minute stop somewhere on your local run.
You might get a faster ride to Birmingham, but replacing the Central line would slow the local service to High Wycombe.
It would give local riders a much more frequent service. There would be six stops added (Ruislip Gdns, Northolt, Greenford, Perivale, Hanger La, and N Acton) offset by four stops removed (Northolt Pk, Sudbury Hill Harrow, Sudbury & Harrow Rd, and Wembley Stadium), so the time difference, especially when you consider that the route to Pad is shorter, would be minimal.
I really don't see the need to replace the Central line in the west, but if you did it would take more than 6 TPH.
They are some of the least used stations on the system. Comparable stations at the Eastern end of the Central Line get 3-6tph (if you ever ride in from Birmingham/Wycombe, you can look across and see how empty the Central Line trains are - it's seriously at a carriage to yourself levels). Meanwhile, you provide more service to a station that needs it: Ealing Broadway.
Watford may be a good direction; not the fourth rail DC line but the slow 25 KV AC line to Milton Keynes.
That would be slightly awkward. It would require some new track between Stonebridge Park and Wembley Central so that Crossrail could use the existing diveunder to get onto the NE side of the alignment, but not have to merge with the DC Lines before they dive under to the SW side.
Oh and make that Rugby (to totally replace Sliverlink). And as a part of them getting Crossrail, cancel the Virgin Trains stop (at least Rush hours and Evenings) at Milton Keynes - it pisses off their long distance customers who can't get a seat at Euston for bloody commuters. Make Watford Jn pick up only NB and set down only SB and charge anyone using it otherwise the Standard Open Single price from Rugby, Coventry, Nuneaton or wherever the train last stopped to Euston.
With a bit of track doubling, St Alban's Abbey could be added (maybe somehow there's a way to get an interchange to Thameslink, as ridership isn't all that heavy on the Main Line North of Watford.
Platforms [on the Greenford loop] are probably very short.
Especially the bay at Greenford - that's why I was suggesting looping, as it would be difficult to sort out Greenford station.
The extension to Terminal 5 is to have two tracks, putting more load on the fast tracks, but they should still have capacity.
That'll require significant junction work - the stub left for the T5 line is single track.
1tph Swansea (and W Wales)
1tph Cardiff
1tph Bristol via Bath
1tph Weston via Bath
1tph Cheltenham (and Worcester)
3 trains daily Oxford (and Worcester and Hereford)
1tph Plymouth/Penzance via Westbury
4tph Heathrow T4
That's 11tph. The minimum interval is 3 minutes, giving a theoretical capacity of at least 20tph. Another 4tph for Heathrow T5 could easily be fitted in.
The City wants Heathrow included, but I don't see how unless Crossrail shares tracks with Heathrow Express.
And indeed everything on the Fast Lines, unless they're suggesting somehow being able to run some trains in the reverse direction on the Up Airport Line!
Note. "The official application to Parliament is timetabled for November next year [2004] with construction starting in 2007. Trains should be running by 2013." Source Railwatch Oct 2003.
Let's hope they vote for LRM instead.
four stops removed (Northolt Pk, Sudbury Hill Harrow, Sudbury & Harrow Rd, and Wembley Stadium),
Very few trains stop at those stations. At the two Sudburies there is one tph peak and mostly zero off-peak. Ridership is almost nonexistent at any time of day. There is much stop skipping on the Marylebone line, and for good reasonno passengers.
They are some of the least used stations on the system.
That's true, especially of the three Ruislips. But all along the line, the faster Crossrail service (nonstop from North Acton to Paddington) would draw people away from the Metropolitan and Piccadilly.
Comparable stations at the Eastern end of the Central Line get 3-6tph
Hainault via Newbury Park gets more like 12 tph. Fairlop and Barkingside have very low ridership.
All things considered, I still think that the present service to High Wycombe is reasonably good, and I wouldn't want to four-track the High Wycombe line or convert the Central line to Crossrail, at least not as a priority.
It would require some new track between Stonebridge Park and Wembley Central
I see what you mean. The "Willesden Relief" line narrows to a single track before merging with the slow AC Euston line. The LRM plan "allows for" a connection to the Euston line at Willesden, but of course they give no indication of what services would be provided, as they only want to build the line, not operate it. They don't really say if it's included in the price!
I am wondering if some trains could be turned around somewhere close to Paddington (Old Oak?), or possibly Paddington itself could have a terminal track or two.
the stub left for the T5 line is single track.
The map on the Airport Technology site shows two tracks to Terminal 5.
Let's hope they vote for LRM instead.
I'll second that, but more likely they will use LRM as a stick to beat CLRL with.
They should really receive an award for being the most useless stations in London. Both are way too close to the Piccadilly Line stations to be of any use at all. Northolt Park is almost as bad, being halfway in between Piccadilly and Central Line stations. There could be a case for Wembley, but ideally everything should be closed, at least from West Ruislip inwards. In fact, I'm surprised no-one's bothered applying to close these stations.
All things considered, I still think that the present service to High Wycombe is reasonably good, and I wouldn't want to four-track the High Wycombe line
It's quite a serious priority. Chiltern have realised that to be competitive, they need to run non-stop from London to Banbury (I'm hoping with the extra trains on order, they'll run six cars non-stop to Banbury, then split and have the front half not stop again until Birmingham). It's okay putting a Banbury slow train out behind this, but it will get caught up in rush hour if it makes stops from London to Gerrard's Cross. It would therefore be expedient to somehow at least get service to Gerrard's Cross onto separate lines, if not to High Wycombe.
Fairlop and Barkingside have very low ridership.
Not as low as Roding Valley, which gets 3tph, ending for the night at 8pm.
The LRM plan "allows for" a connection to the Euston line at Willesden, but of course they give no indication of what services would be provided, as they only want to build the line, not operate it. They don't really say if it's included in the price!
LRM's website is seriously pisspoor: too much verbiage, not enough content.
I say make it even cheaper: leave in (with higher emphasis) the Willesden connector, remove the stub for Docklands and the Bethnal Green connetor.
I am wondering if some trains could be turned around somewhere close to Paddington (Old Oak?),
There is a relatively controversial solution: convert the Hammersmith & City Line.
The map on the Airport Technology site shows two tracks to Terminal 5.
Interesting. What's actually there is an "X" crossover with what looks like the Up Line South of it left as a stub to go to T5.
I'll second that, but more likely they will use LRM as a stick to beat CLRL with.
CLRL have provided an absolutely terrible plan. They should be kicked out on their asses.
Chiltern have realised that to be competitive, they need to run non-stop from London to Banbury
The Great Central was never very successful at competing for the Birmingham route. Your sense of priority might be biased by your own travel habits in this case.
I say make it even cheaper: leave in (with higher emphasis) the Willesden connector, remove the stub for Docklands and the Bethnal Green connetor.
And I agree. The LRM plan provides for "Additional elements" and a "future extension". The additional elements are the connections at Bethnal Green, Forest Gate and Willesden and the future extension goes to the Docklands. I can see possible uses for the "additional elements", especially Willesden, and it might be prudent to "allow for them" if that doesn't cost too much money. But they should forget the "future extension"!
There is a relatively controversial solution: convert the Hammersmith & City Line.
It's feasible and close at hand, but I don't see much benefit. Costs would include conversion to AC and building longer platforms at seven stations, some elevated on viaducts, in a congested area.
If not enough good routes can be found in the west, I would prefer to terminate some trains at Paddington, and turn them at the nearest place where turning tracks can be built, at Old Oak, at Paddington or anywhere in between.
What's actually there is an "X" crossover with what looks like the Up Line South of it left as a stub to go to T5.
I don't know enough to comment on new developments at Heathrow.
CLRL have provided an absolutely terrible plan. They should be kicked out on their asses.
They have been influenced by political lobbying, as may be expected, but the Kingston branch seems a very poor choice without much political support that I know of, plus opposition already from people whose homes are threatened.
That's because the Birmingham trains were operated over the GC&GW Jt by the Great Western. Those trains were extremely successful until 1967, providing the fastest (and incidentally the shortest) route between London and Birmingham. I've done some quick calculations and it looks like the existing Class 168 DMUs could offer a slightly faster journey time to Birmingham than Virgin Trains if they only stopped at Banbury.
The thing the Great Central was very good at was operating fast trains to the East Midlands and Yorkshire and also cross-country routings like Bristol - Oxford - Leicester - York and Portsmouth - Oxford - Leicester - Manchester. There are vague plans that keep being mentioned of restoring Ashendon Jct to Leicester (either Central or diverted into London Rd). Nothing ever seems to be done about them.
Your sense of priority might be biased by your own travel habits in this case.
I ride both lines. I do actually prefer the Chiltern route because Snow Hill station in Birmingham is more convenient for me than New Street. What is clear is that Birmingham needs both lines.
However, the real place where 4 tracks are imminently needed is on the section Birmingham Moor St - Dorridge (actually, the old slow lines are still there in places!). There are ways of creating work-arounds for the inner end (involving trains terminating at Gerrard's X) due to the light ridership. However, there's not a lot that can be done in the West Midlands without 4 tracks.
I can see possible uses for the "additional elements", especially Willesden, and it might be prudent to "allow for them" if that doesn't cost too much money. But they should forget the "future extension"!
I can't see there being any free capacity to do any of the Eastern ones but the GE Main Line. It would be a waste of money to build any other connectors (with the possible exception of Forest Gate) as they would simply overwhelm the central section.
They have been influenced by political lobbying, as may be expected, but the Kingston branch seems a very poor choice without much political support that I know of
The best guess I've been able to come up with on that one is that someone on the planning committee lives between Kingston and Richmond somewhere!
could offer a slightly faster journey time to Birmingham than Virgin Trains if they only stopped at Banbury.
10 TPH peak from Marylebone run on two tracks. That works because a slow train starts immediately after a fast one. Before embarking on four-tracking, consider how much time would be saved by how many people and what it would cost. You may have a case, as the extra time per extra stop is quite long for fast trains.
Showing my own bias, it would be absurd to stop 12-car Crossrail trains every 10 minutes at Denham Golf Club or Seer Green. Yet both communities have grown up around the railway and are highly dependent on it. I suppose if you had your way and the Green Belt was abolished, that whole area would be solidly built up, and my childhood memories would be paved over with concrete!
it would be a waste of money to build any other connectors
A Forest Gate connector should only be built as part of a branch via Barking. It might be possible to "allow for" a Bethnal Green connector without actually building it.
There are no cross-country services to the East Midlands, with the exceptions of that at Derby and Chesterfield. Leicester is the 9th largest city in the UK; Nottingham is 12th. They deserve better.
Portsmouth to the Midlands was always quickest via Guildford and Reading. The problem is trying to get the train paths to line up both through Reading and Birmingham New St. The obvious solution is not to send the trains to Birmingham (or if you have to, terminate them at Moor St).
10 TPH peak from Marylebone run on two tracks. That works because a slow train starts immediately after a fast one. Before embarking on four-tracking, consider how much time would be saved by how many people and what it would cost. You may have a case, as the extra time per extra stop is quite long for fast trains.
You are right that the London end just about works in rush hour. Until and unless one or other of Princes Risboro to Oxford and/or Ashendon to Rugby/Leicester re-open, there is still enough capacity. The section that is woefully inadequate is Leamington Spa to Birmingham. What is really necessary is four-tracking Dorridge to Moor St or the current crawl behind a Central Trains service will continue.
Ideally, I'd like to see Chiltern take over all services through Moor St and Snow Hill and take the London - Stratford-upon-Avon Line off Thames Trains and into Marylebone.
Showing my own bias, it would be absurd to stop 12-car Crossrail trains every 10 minutes at Denham Golf Club or Seer Green. Yet both communities have grown up around the railway and are highly dependent on it. I suppose if you had your way and the Green Belt was abolished, that whole area would be solidly built up, and my childhood memories would be paved over with concrete!
I'd much rather see it covered with solid red brick and look like an East Midland town...
"The complexity of the London rail networks, both the Underground and the suburban heavy rail, limits their operational efficiency. This is particularly so with the Northern and Victoria Lines, which have poor station configuration; this limits the number of services that can be run per hour. "
Can anyone please explain which Northern and Victoria line stations have poor configuration, and what's wrong with them.
The only particularly bad station I can think of in the Victoria Line is Euston - not because it's inefficient (it most certainly isn't), but because it's a bit of a hike to the Northern (Charing X) Line.
With the Northern Line, pedestrian flow is a problem at Camden Town and at Bank.
Another interesting site is Tube Prune, Tube Professionals' Rumour Network. They are quite critical of the T-Cup.
A more natural step would be to replace Silverlink to Richmond. It doesn't really make sense (after DLR to City Airport opens and NLL to N Woolwich closes) to have an independent NLL.
The southern extensions are different too. UTT version goes to West Croydon, Crystal Palace and Wimbledon; TfL version goes to West Croydon, Crystal Palace and Clapham Junction.
TfL's scheme is better. More trains serve Clapham Jct. Better still would be services like this:
- 3tph Clapham Jct - SLL - ELL - NLL - Richmond
- 3tph Clapham Jct - SLL - ELL - NLL - Primrose Hill - Harrow
- 6tph New X Gate - ELL - NLL - WLL - Clapham Jct
- 6tph Stratford LL - NLL - WLL - SLL - London Bridge
- 3tph Watford Jct - WLL - SLL - ELL - Stratford
- 3tph Willesden Jct - WLL - SLL - ELL - Stratford
A circle without a circle!!!
The orbital line is an appealing idea, but I think you have greatly over-estimated the demand, unless you plan to run one-car trains! On most parts of the line you could divide your services by three, and still meet the demand.
No more than TfL are doing with trying to feed 4 branches through the ELL.
TfL can plan to feed four branches through the ELL only if they estimate a low demand on each branch. Besides the SLL, NLL and WLL go nowhere near the City or West End, so the demand for them would likely be even lower.
Exactly.
Besides the SLL, NLL and WLL go nowhere near the City or West End, so the demand for them would likely be even lower.
They go at least as near to the City or West End as the ELL does (ie not very).
The WLL isn't a lot of use except for having Willesden Jct at one end and Clapham Jct at the other - it's more use for through traffic than for its intermediate stops (West Brompton would provide an useful transfer if you could get further around London than Willesden or Clapham). The current service (effectively 2tph) ensures that nobody uses it. It would take brave through routings to make it work.
The NLL contrastingly goes to lots of places people want to go, but passenger trains keep getting squeezed by over-prioritisation of freight. This could be dealt with by reopening the Oxbridge Line and restricting freight workings on the NLL between 0600 and 2100.
The SLL is probably the weakest section, once you consider that the WLL would be well used if through routed with WCML DC Line and NLL trains. However, it again will provide an easy way for people arriving at Clapham Jct to get to the East End (which, seeing as people keep trying to regenerate the East End, can only be a good thing). Even TfL can see this with their choice of a Clapham routing over a Wimbledon one.
TfL's plans for routing certain trains on the Brighton Slow Lines are, however, totally useless. The through services from them should go to London Bridge as it is closer to where people want to be (although I can see why they're doing it, given the approaches to London Bridge). The transfer at New X Gate works fine for the few people who actually want to go to the East End.
TfL also lack bravery in keeping the New Cross spur. It would be far more reflective of the low demand to build a station at Deptford Park, where the ELL goes under the SE Main Line.
Here are a few more facts.
Present weekday services TPH peak / off-peak:
East London line 6 / 6 (4 car trains)
North London line 4 / 4
West London line 2 / 2
South London line 2 / 2
NLL and SLL train lengths cannot exceed 4 cars, due to platform lengths.
[ELL source is Tube Prune. Other line sources: train operating company timetables.]
So ELL and NLL are the busiest of the four segments, and the ELL extensions could form the beginnings of an Outer Circle.
According to Clive's Underground Line Guides:
"There are two sets of proposals outstanding for the planned extensions. The first would see a service of 18 trains per hour. LU would run 6 between Dalston and New Cross, while the rest would be main line trains: Finsbury Park, Highbury & Islington, Willesden Junction, Crystal Palace, West Croydon, and Wimbledon would each be the terminus for 4 trains per hour.
The second, cut-back, proposal is for 4 trains per hour on each of four routes, between:
Highbury & Islington and Crystal Palace
Highbury & Islington and West Croydon
Dalston Junction and Clapham Junction
Dalston Junction and New Cross"
The route of the second, cut-back, proposal is of course the one now appearing on the official web sites.
16 TPH is a frequent service for a line with only 4-car platforms that doesn't quite reach the City.
TfL's plans for routing certain trains on the Brighton Slow Lines are, however, totally useless.
I agree, and I don't see why they are doing it. The plan doesn't say if those trains will continue to run; is there room (or need) for both services? This is part of a larger question. Which other trains will cease to run when the ELL is extended?
The official map of the ELL extension, (here), shows connections with suburban rail at all suburban rail stations, including the Brighton slow line from London Bridge. This suggests to me that the existing suburban trains will continue to run.
Call me suspicious, but it could be nothing more than service via East Croydon to the Brighton (London Bridge) Slow Line stations.
"This suggests to me that the existing suburban trains will continue to run."
This has always been my worry about the ELL extension proposals. The local stations on the Brighton main line south of New Cross Gate have 6 tph offpeak at present, and my observation (when passing through them on Thameslink trains on the fast lines) has been that The staions, though shabby, are quite well used. Their trains go to London Bridge, from where the much-derided JLE gives direct service to West End destinations, and the Northern Line goes to the City (or you can just walk over London Bridge if the weather's nice). If the Brighton line local service were to be *replaced* by the ELL, all its passengers would get carried WAY over to the east, and would have to get to the West End by changing at Canada Water and to the City via Whitechapel. There would be uproar among the paSsengers when that plan was discovered. I conclude that both the ELL and national rail services to London Bridge from thoise local stations will continue - but won't that provide an over-lavish service?
Yes I think so, and that's why I agree with Rail Blue that the ELL extensions from New Cross Gate are not a good plan. What could be done to improve the service on the London Bridge slow Brighton line is to eliminate the skip-stopping.
It's actually 6 / 4 between Camden Rd and Stratford.
The plan doesn't say if those trains will continue to run; is there room (or need) for both services?
There's definitely need for more than 4 cars going somewhere more useful than Whitechapel. The only way that people would ride those trains would be if they went over the H&C Line.
Yes, and London Bridge, with 8 car trains, is more useful than Whitechapel, being nearer to the City.
The only way that people would ride those trains would be if they went over the H&C Line.
(which they won't) or if the London Bridge slow trains were suspended, which would be most regrettable.
Not only that - it's a nice short ride to Charing X on the SE Main Line - much better for the West End than a District from Whitechapel.
That is what is known as wishful thinking. It involves rerouting Met Main Line services to Whitechapel and Barking. They are simply too long for some of the platforms.
A simpler solution (though there mightn't be enough C stock for this) would be to replace the Wimbledon - Edgware Rd, Wimbledon - Tower Hill, and Circle services with one Wimbledon to Wimbledon via Edgware Rd and Tower Hill service (and leave everything else the same).
nor about the East London line merging into the former peak-only service of the North London line. (Primrose Hill! Yeah!!!)
I don't see this happening. It's even dotted on the map. I think the problems with this are well known enough not to need regurgitating.
What I would much rather see anyway is a routing via West Hampstead so I could change directly onto a Birmingham train when the interchange there is finished.
"Dear Mr. Fairthorne
Thanks for your e-mail. With regard to your queries:
a) The forecasts were made earlier this year. The work was carried out by one of the UK's leading transport consultancy practices, who do a lot of work for transport operators, local authorities and bodies such as Transport for London and the Strategic Rail Authority.
b) The work was based a widely-used computer model that analyses rail demand across the South East. The future demand takes account of both external factors that influence travel demand (e.g. population growth and new housing along the various routes, economic growth, central London employment, etc.), and factors specific to the railway (e.g;. Chiltern Railways' own plans for service improvements, London Underground plans to increase capacity on the Jubilee Line). The model also takes account of other schemes such as the East London Line extension that will not directly impact on the scheme, but will affect travel patterns across London as a whole.
c) The forecast indicates that due to the external factors traffic through West Hampstead would increase by 16% in the peak hour, and by 49% outside the peak hour by 2011 in a "do-nothing" scenario - figures in line with the general increase in rail travel in recent years. Given the crowding that already occurs along the pavement at West Hampstead we think that this would cause huge problems for both passengers and local residents - hence our statement that "doing nothing would not be realistic".
Our finance plans are based on the assumption that the continuing constraints on public expenditure in general, and for transport schemes in particular, mean that very little public money would be available to build ab interchange. The station will thus be funding "development gain" - i.e. making it part of the re-development of the surrounding derelict and under-used land by the railway lines.
I hope this makes matters clearer!
Best wishes
Allan Dare"
The web site now contains a diagram of the proposed interchange, which does include the Metropolitan line.
Yes. There's a load of stuff on their website about it (www.chilternrailways.co.uk).
It will be much more useful than Marylebone.
Depends where you want to go. I'll still use Marylebone - Oxford Circus is more use than Bond St and the Bakerloo Line is quicker to Waterloo too. For me, it'll just be a useful alternative when the Bakerloo line seizes up.
Will the Met stop there as well?
Yes.
Previously they said that "doing nothing would not be realistic"; now they say that they are "looking at the possibility".
It's a drag that the Met has another stop to make but it's certainly logical to do so. Come to think of it, I rarely used W. Hampstead in those days and went to Finchley Rd. or Swiss Cottage. They were all about the same distance from where I lived. If Thameslink existed back then, I'd certainly have used it more often. Going to Gatwick was a 3 train ride. OTOH, my ride to school would have been different now, since at one point my season ticket said "South Hampstead-Camden Rd. via Primrose Hill". I wish that zone based travelcards existed in 1978. There is somewhere in the Subtalk log, my post about long commutes in which I mention the then available options.
NLL's now 4tph, except on weekends when it's 2tph. Midland Thameslink's now 4tph. Neither of these could be described as great, but they're an improvement. It certainly will make bizarre journeys like Birmingham to St Alban's more feasible if Chiltern open a station.
If Thameslink existed back then, I'd certainly have used it more often.
Thameslink is a neat idea, but it's SOOOOO stupid having one line North of the Thames condemn you to dual-voltage stock (gets stuck at Farringdon then everything turns at Kentish Town or Blackfriars). With the number of times the OHLE has fallen down on the Bedpan line, you'd've thought they'd've got the message to make it 3rd rail by now.
Is it that bad? They should try to fix that instead of wasting money on 3rd rail for sure.
BTW, you were suggesting in one post to connect Moorgate and Cannon St. That would only create another spot like that even though the GN&C part does already have the restriction of dual-voltage stock.
When I was much younger, I had this fantasy of enlarging W & C to GN & C clearance and connect GN suburbs and Waterloo lines.
It's extremely annoying - especially on days when they manage to block all 4-tracks of the Midland Main Line by bringing down OHLE on the switches at Bedford. It has the result that people coming from the East Midlands have up to two extra changes as Fast trains terminate at Leicester and Slow ones at Kettering. The routing this forces people onto the crush loaded Leicester - Birmingham trains in a desperate attempt to get to Nuneaton to be able to continue to London.
A far more common fault (although this only screws up Thameslink) is for the pantograph to fail to engage at Farringdon Northbound and therefore Thameslink getting split at Kentish Town and Blackfriars, with passengers getting lumbered with a load of extra stops on a Northern Line train (and only 10tph PEAK go from St Pancras to Kentish Town).
They should try to fix that instead of wasting money on 3rd rail for sure.
It wouldn't be a waste. The cost of re-electrification at 750V DC 3rd Rail would be paid for by savings in expediture on rolling stock (fewer, cheaper new cars) when Thameslink gets 24tph. It is stupid having one line on a suburban electric system that has a different form of electrification to the rest: that's why on grouping, LBSC's crappy catenary was torn down and replaced with 3rd rail.
BTW, you were suggesting in one post to connect Moorgate and Cannon St. That would only create another spot like that even though the GN&C part does already have the restriction of dual-voltage stock.
I'd extend the 3rd Rail to Letchworth Garden City via Welwyn and via Hertford.
When I was much younger, I had this fantasy of enlarging W & C to GN & C clearance and connect GN suburbs and Waterloo lines.
:-D neat idea. Although for me, I'd still end up riding the Victoria Line from St Pancras to Vauxhall (except if I'm feeling lazy and decide to use the Slow MML - Fast Thameslink - Sutton Thameslink - South Central route with same platform transfers all the way from Leicester to Epsom!).
Is Farringdon-Moorgate electrified by OHLE or 3rd rail or both? If not both, they should do it right away so the stalled train can be moved away and even if they have to do split service, trains from the North should be able to end at Moorgate instead of Kentish Town!(When I was living in London, only peak hour specials DMUs used the widened lines, so I don't know. I'd assume it has at least 25kV OHLE)
LBSC's crappy catenary was torn down and replaced with 3rd rail.
That was quite some time ago. I can't even remember if it was 600V DC or something else. I remember seeing the dual mode locos in books, though.
I'm feeling lazy and decide to use the Slow MML - Fast Thameslink - Sutton Thameslink - South Central route with same platform transfers all the way from Leicester to Epsom!
Sounds like something my mum'd ask me to figure out how. :-)
Last question. I don't recall the class 313s being so crappy about the mode change. Are class 319s somehow a lesser kind of species?
When I lived in London the Metropolitan widened lines only had steam trains, which was a lot of fun for an under ground line. There were two stations at Kings Cross; one being the present Thameslink, and the other being to the west and rear of Kings Cross main line. I seem to remember catching a train from one to the other.
And the Hotel curve in between... ouch, how sharp! That will not return if T2K ever happens.
I seem to remember catching a train from one to the other.
The sorta daft thing one does...
So I didn't dream it. That's reassuring!
And the Hotel curve in between... ouch, how sharp!
There was also a steep hill up to the main line suburban platforms, which were themselves on a slope IIRC.
You sure didn't!
There was also a steep hill up to the main line suburban platforms
According to this article, "The incline was so severe that there was a person stationed down the tunnel on a semi-permenant basis to put sand on the track to prevent locomotives from slipping".
Actually there were three! Moorgate-bound trains from the GN line stopped at "Kings Cross York Road", a single-platform, one-way station with an entrance from the road now (and even then) called York Way, on the *east* side of KX main line station. They then descended to KX Thameslink, as now is. Returning from Moorgate, after KX Thameslink they ascended the notorious Hotel Curve into the suburban station at the west side of KX main line station. The latter still exists but is now a terminus - the Hotel Curve is no more.
Incidentally, after the OHLE electrification of the Bedford-St Pancras ("Bed-Pan") route but before the reopening of the Snow Hill link through to the Southern Region lines, KX Thameslink station was called "Kings Cross Midland City". In that period all services from Bedford and Luton ran to Moorgate, except (IIRC) late in the evening and on Sundays when they went into St Pancras.
And no, there isn't any significant length of track dual-electrified. In effect the transfer from OHLE to third rail has to take place while the train is standing in Farringdon Station. This will be particularly silly for the six months from September 2004, when all Thameslink trains from the south will be terminating at Kings Cross Thameslink and all Thameslink trains from the north will be terminating in St Pancras main line station. The ones from the south will therefore have to switch to OHLE just for the one mile or so from Farringdon to KX Thameslink.
Three Kings Cross stations! Your description is almost as good as being able to travel back in time!
The Metropolitan widened lines fascinated me because they seemed such an anachronism. I had forgotten the name of "Kings Cross Midland City" station, and that the single southbound platform at Kings Cross was to the east of the station. So the Hotel Curve was one-way northbound. I believe freight trains to and from the Snow Hill tunnel used those lines too.
"transfer from OHLE to third rail has to take place while the train is standing in Farringdon Station. "
But there are other places (the West London line is one) where such a power switchover occurs when trains are in motion.
Opportunity to third rail KX TL - Moorgate. Run 4-CIG's to Brighton and 4-EPB's to Sutton. Make James happy.
But oh wait. He wants the whole Bed-Pan to be third railed too.:-)
:-D
Back in the nineteenth century the south-to-east curve existed just south of Farringdon station and all sorts of weird (steam-hauled of course) suburban services came in over Blackfriars Bridge, called at Blackfriars (then called St Paul's) station and Ludgate Hill, and then turned right to Barbican (then called Aldersgate Street), and terminated at Moorgate. If that curve still existed and third rail ran to Moorgate we could have your Moorgate to Brighton electric trains.....
The Beatles were breaking up, 1 was 20/-, but these facts had no importance to the six year old tourist. The red trains on the District did.
OHLE, but the line's due to be closed due to platform lengthening at Farringdon blocking the junction.
If not both, they should do it right away so the stalled train can be moved away and even if they have to do split service, trains from the North should be able to end at Moorgate instead of Kentish Town!
It wouldn't help. The stalled train would be right in the way at Farringdon station. OHLE runs from SOME of the tracks and crossovers at Bedford (hence Thameslink's crass way of demolishing OHLE and shutting down the Midland Main Line) via Farringdon to Moorgate. 3rd Rail starts at the North end of Farringdon Station and extends all the way to Brighton and most other Southern destinations. Changeover happens in the station at Farringdon. Note that the OHLE does not go into St Pancras Main Line station, so when a train gets stalled, the line gets cut back all the way to Kentish Town.
When I was living in London, only peak hour specials DMUs used the widened lines, so I don't know.
At least DMUs don't have to switch voltage! But I suppose in those days there was no service through the Snow Hill tunnel...
Sounds like something my mum'd ask me to figure out how. :-)
Actually, Leicester to Epsom without platform changes was something my girlfriend asked me to work out.
Last question. I don't recall the class 313s being so crappy about the mode change. Are class 319s somehow a lesser kind of species?
319s seem to be utter junk. I don't think I've ever been on a 313. What I say is give me 4-CIG's to Brighton and 4-EPB's to Sutton!!!
So put a crossover switch east of Farringdon and third rail the tracks to Moorgate. If a train cannot lift its pan, reverse back to Moorgate and let the other trains go through. I don't want to end up at Kentish Town!
but the line's due to be closed due to platform lengthening at Farringdon blocking the junction.
Duh!
But I suppose in those days there was no service through the Snow Hill tunnel...
There wasn't. Trains from the South terminated at Blackfriars or Holborn Viaduct.
I don't think I've ever been on a 313.
You've never ridden NLL(both lines) or GN & City? Or have they changed stocks on those lines?
Nope. The closest I've come to the NLL is the District Line at Richmond.
That is temporary, during the reconstruction of St Pancras. OHLE ran into St Pancras main line until a couple of years ago, and will again by September 2004 when St Pancras will be the terminus of all Thameslink tarins from the north for six months.
At the moment, at weekends when the reconstruction work blocks the Thameslink route, all northern Thameslink trains terminate at Kentish Town, and passengers have to transfer to either the Jubilee Line at West Hampstead or the Northern Line at Kentish Town.
So I wonder what the hell they're on about. It's probably the total bull it sounds like.
I have heard that terminal capacity at Brixton limits TPH on the Victoria line.
Trains can be turned at Victoria too.
Since Camden Town became a trendy tourist area, there has been a real problem getting the numbers of people in and out of the station, especially at weekends, and access to the station is now restricted at certain times for safety reasons. Complete rebuilding of Camden Town station is now proposed, though the flatiron-shaped site presents design problems.
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=614363
Just you wait until TransiTalk returns. Then we'll see who's site "rocks out loud";-)
As to "whose site rocks out loud" I already KNOW the answer.
Then you will need a webserver somewhere willing to post them for you.
There are several "free" web hosts around (I use Tripod), but you cannot link to a photo, only to a web page.
There are other accounts that will let you share a photo album. Look around at some of the people who use them, and then open an account.
For the photos that I post, I have a small web server running on one of my computers (It is part of Windows 2K or Windows XP operating system, but you have to install it separately from your disk), but if you have to ask the question "How do I post a photo" then I suggest that you not try or even think about this option.
Elias
I assume that NJ Transit will extend the HBLR to Tenefly along the Northern Branch first.
BTW, not everything is dependent on new Hudson tubes. There is more than enough room at Hoboken, especially with so many trains using that Midtown direct connection.
While anything is possible that service restoration is not very likley due to its role an an important CSX freight line
CSX cannot even get out of its own way. The West Shore Line has four-track capacity between Little Ferry and Bergenfield and two-track capacity northwards, and they claim to have no room for commuter trains. (I can understand their not wanting to pay for infrastructure upgrades themselves, however…it always has to be political football, does it not…)
Robert
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
til next time
And once you were inside, the signs had cranks. Most of the time you could see what they said by reading the backwards lettering with the station lighting outside the train. But the manufacturer of the roll signs (way back then, I believe it was Trans-Sign out of Pontiac, Michigan) put markings on the back surface (white mylar, signs were black printing on the outside) to indicate exactly where the signs should line up -- with a little metal pointer affixed to the inside of the sign boxes.
Again, thanks for jogging my memory!!!
See those cranks in the middle? Figure it out.
1988...All aboard a Pan Am 747 jet bound for New York are killed when a terrorist bomb blows up the plane over Lockerbie, Scotland.
til next time
As usual the highest first rate photogenic reporting.
Thanks, :>) ~ Sparky
Chicago Tribune staff reports
Published December 21, 2003, 6:06 AM CST
The Chicago Transit Authority's festive Holiday Train derailed Saturday evening with more than 100 passengers aboard, but nobody was injured.
Festooned with lights and Christmas figures, one of the middle cars of the four-car train derailed for unknown reasons on the Brown Line near the Sedgwick Street station, said CTA spokeswoman Kim Myles.
"It's a pretty popular attraction" in its 12th season, Myles said. Passengers evacuated safely, using a track-level footpath about 7:30 p.m.
Brown Line passengers were shuttled around the affected area.
Each weekend in November and December, the Holiday Train rotates among six of the CTA lines, taking parents and children on a seasonal ride decked out with Santa and his reindeer.
A holiday train sounds like a great PR idea. Then again, a derailed holiday train sounds like a PR disaster.
Or at least, re-railed it using a team of reindeer.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
The holiday train is made up of 2600s IIRC.
wayne
Paris, with the grand looking stations, the little seats in the cars that pop up to provide more room when standing, the gracious elevateds, the roller coaster ride into Gare St. Lazare (I think), the little "aaaaaaa" sound made before the doors close, the good-looking French women, the constant crowds, the narrow colorful cars, many different styles, etc. And of course, the rubber-tired trains which wizzzzzz along the #6 elevated line (among others). And where else can you see the Eiffel Tower from a subway car window? Or see ads where the female models forgot to put on their shirt? Or take an RER train across the entire city in 10 minutes (and it looks like a subway car on steroids with those same pop-up seats, and has left-hand running, while the metro has right-hand running).
Cleveland, interesting lines that unfortunately no one rides (except for Blue and Green during rush hour, great views out the front window, etc. It's been worth it to me to fly to Cleveland just to ride the trains and trolleys. (Of course, on SW Air, the airfare is almost as cheap as an all-day pass :-)
Boston, if just for the sheer variety: no two lines are alike, overhead wire, 3rd rail, narrow cars, wide cars, trolley cars, twisiting tunnels, brand new ROW, ROW in the street, the roller coaster to Lechmere, etc. etc.
Philadelphia: Market St. Subway: narrow cars, wide gauge track, end-facing seating, nice shades of blue and silver, easy-to-view tunnels, great elevateds, shares tunnels as express with... Subway Surface Cars, like bumper cars in the tunnels, twisting and turning west of 30th St. elegantly gliding along the streets west of 40. Broad Street is okay, especially the express, a straight line from Olney to Walnut, with one tiny turn at City Hall. To me the MFSE brings it way up. Hey and the commuter trains are the only RER-style service in the US (even if it's only from 10th - 30th St.)
PATH: How they get so many people to so many places with that tiny railroad is something.
Toronto: Every 4 minutes there's another train even at midnight on a Sunday, why it's like your own private taxi to your bus terminal. They're clean, the stations are interesting, the views out the front are spectacular, there's even a tunnel on a bridge, they let you videotape all you want.
Vienna: very pretty (handsome?) cars, mix of ancient elevateds (looks like the Bronx in some places near WestBahnhof) and brand new subways, even streetcars run in subways, very well-used, frequent service.
Frankfurt: Cars that are high-platform in the tunnel, and low on the street, stations that are high platform IN THE STREET, regular front-facing seating in nicely appointed subway cars, very frequent and speedy, clear announcements from a recording, used all the time.
I guess I have to mention, since they are the two biggest workhorses in the US...
New York: All the well-known reasons, Tons of variety.
Chicago: Just a couple of tons of Variety, elevateds on highways, over alleyways next to Milwaukee Ave., Loop line is not over the sidewalks, so the streets don't look so dark with the trains running. Twists and turn like you're a corkscrew in some sections. Small cars give that fun-ride feel. Plus the Saturday tour train, the Xmas specials: it's like the CTA knows how to have fun!!!
Honorable Mention: Miami: 2-track line, punctual clean, actually crowded after 3:00, great views of palm trees out the windows, island platforms, side platforms, covered platforms, uncovered platforms, 90-degree turns done with ease, downtown station is a mile above the street (well, it seems that way). It's all elevated because the ground is sand and water, but it is quite pleasant.
Compare it to some I'm leaving off the list:
Baltimore: a twin of Miami with none of the flair, more like its crabby (no pun) cousin, only island platforms, everybody looks half asleep when riding it, never crowded.
Washington: I live here, and like it, but the tunnels are too dark, the service after 7:00 and on Sundays is not enough (every 15-20 minutes, yukkk), every car looks alike, except for the new ones, which give off this overbright fluorescent glow for some reason. Operationally and equipmentwise, it's great, but not a railfan favorite of mine.
London: Heavy and hulking looking. Except for inside the Circle, the service is more like a very cheap commuter train; people used to smoke in the trains (yukk; I even saw a guy light his cigarette and set fire to his newspaper -- that was good for a chuckle, sheeesh).
Atlanta: Kinda ordinary. Five points seems to have more platforms than tracks!
BART: Like Washington but a little shabbier and less frequent.
Montreal: It's okay; however, the lack of air conditioning (until recently) was a killer.
Dayton, Ohio: I can't find any of the stations!!!!!! :-)
Check out:
http://www.mvra.org/index.htm
I've also been on Amsterdam, Munich, Mannheim-Ludwigshafen, SF, Dallas, Buffalo, Pittsburgh, Hamburg (pretty darn good), but I've run out of steam (or is it 600 Volts DC)...
Wait: One last one: the Dallas Airport train: it's in a concrete guideway like a water flume at Disney World, it's got rail-type cars like the Atlanta Airport people-mover subway, it's automated, it's on tires running on concrete (no tracks) so it's always hitting the sides of the guideway, and it's got switches to move them through 4 different circular routes like the monorail at Disney World. And it rides like a roller coaster about to go off the tracks. It's so bad, it's GREAT!!! Unfortunately, next year they're going to replace it with a pleasant and smooth one. Darn!!
I hope that answers your question...
The runner-up would be Boston, since I rode the T quite often during my four years of college up there. -Nick
That is not to say that is the best, largest, most conplicated, etc.etc. (He did say MY FAVORITE ??)
So I guess your handle must stand for Midland & Great Central (although their only joint lines were way up North).
Where were these others: M&LNER
W&B
M&GW
W J Stock
(Answers in next issue)
Ah, that makes more sense - Harrow to Quainton Rd. Apologies for thinking you were a minor line in Yorkshire.
Where were these others: M&LNER
Same line, after Grouping.
W&B
Whitechapel & Bow Joint (LTS & MD).
M&GW
Hammersmith & City Joint.
W J Stock
He was a German architect and author. He lived in Munich.
Okay, now my turn - locate these:
- SLR
- LOR
- MSJ&A
- BWH&A
- A&N Joint
"OK __now locate these"
Selsey Light Rly- aka Selsey Tramway? Liverpool Overhead Rly.
Manchester,South Junc. & Altrincham
Bideford,Westward Ho! &Appledore.
Ashby & Nuneaton
Was there ever a Marylebone to Watford service?
Damn - you got them all right! Something tells me you have a mind like an atlas or a directory of railway abbreviations lying around.
Selsey Light Rly- aka Selsey Tramway?
Yep, the Selsey Light Railway, the Selsey Tramway and indeed the West Sussex Railway were one and the same. How anyone thought it could ever be profitable, I don't know!
So my suggestion is this: next time we poll, let's have a stipulation that you can't vote for your home subway. I'm not asking for this because I have anything against New York...it's subway is great and nothing in the U.S. or Canada comes close. But I already know that most subtalkers feel its the best. I'd like to hear what opinions they do have about other transit systems out there, even if those systems aren't as good ans New York's.
And by the way, my favorite subways are Atlanta MARTA and Toronto TTC.
Mark
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Actually, it can be fun if people post why they like a particular system, which can then lead to interesting discussion. That's much more interesting than a tally.
Mark
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
????????????????????
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
til next time
<http://www.shutterfly.com/view/picture_dt.jsp?state=67b0de21af7fc1ea45ao&idx=7>
You needed to type:
<a href="http://www.shutterfly.com/view/picture_dt.jsp?state=67b0de21af7fc1ea45ao&idx=7">
If you had a link to a picture file (these usually end in .bmp, .gif, .jpg, .pcx, etc) and you wanted to put the picture itself in the post, you would type:
<img src="http://www.mysite.com/~me/mypic.jpg">
To find out the real name of your picture, go to the address you gave, right click the photo and select properties - the real address of the photo is in there.
A prior generation of New Yorkers decided to leave nothing to the future but a pile of IOUs on its way out to better places. Perhaps yours will do better.
In any event, mine won't have any choice. At least give us a better subway system to use as we work full time into our 70s to pay for benefits we will never receive.
avid
On another positive note, I saw the new ADA elevator at Auburndale LIRR station and the new escalators at 53-Lex. And Roosevelt-Jackson Heights is in the midst of a massive project, as previously announced.
These projects are going to be a boon for riders.
New subway cars must now be ADA compliant, the R142/143 cars are as such.
In 2004 you will see significant improvements is some stations to be upgraded to ADA access. Atlantic Ave/Pacific St complex, Dekalb Ave-Flatbush Ave, Utica Ave/IRT, Queens Plaza IND, Roosevelt Ave-JH/74th st-Broadway complex, West 4th St/IND, the local platforms at 34th st-Penn Station/7th Ave IRT, 179th st/IND, and let's not forget Stillwell in May, 2004 (3 of 4 lines) are just a few slated to be ADA within that year.
Coming in 2005: Woodlawn and Fordham Road both on Jerome/IRT, 168th st/IND only, Euclid Ave/IND. Anything else I missed?
til next time
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You could be right, he did mention something about scrathing the screen with a butter knife !
Bill "Newkirk"
Follow the link to the "Gallery" and follow the easy steps and KABLAMMO you have a gallery to post and link your photos.
Click this link instead.
IAWTP.
I agree with this part
...or a mac
I do not agree with this part
It would help if you didn't flame non-trolls
It would help if you could ID trolls from non-trolls.
Trolls-
Busfan
CDTA
Busfan
CDTA
E_DOG
He suffered the ultimate penalty for flame wars with racial items included.
Busfan
CDTA
Candidates for your Killfile.
TROLLTROLLTROLLTROLLTROLLTROLLTROLLTROLLTROLLTROLLTROLLTROLLTROLLTROLLTROLLTROLLTROLLTROLLTROLLTROLLTROLLTROLLTROLLTROLLTROLLTROLLTROLLTROLLTROLLTROLLTROLLTROLLTROLLTROLLTROLLTROLLTROLLTROLLTROLLTROLLTROLLTROLLTROLLTROLLTROLLTROLLTROLLTROLLTROLL
Woohoo, we can have CDTA banned!
Yet. Here's a definition of ME:
"ME is a serious and debilitating illness that can last for years, and sometimes for life. The latest research suggests that the symptoms of ME may be caused - at least in part - by a continuing immune response to a real or perceived challenge. Symptoms of ME include overwhelming exhaustion, both physical and cognitive, memory and concentration impairment, an intense 'flu like feeling, muscle pain, sleep disturbance, headaches, disturbance of balance and other symptoms. There is no effective treatment for ME."
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/21/nyregion/21fyi.html
The Longest Ride
Q. Enduring a long wait for the No. 1 train recently afforded us the time for an equally lengthy debate on which subway line is the longest. We thought it was either the A or the F. Are we close?
A. Whew, the way you worded that question, we were afraid you were going to ask which was the slowest subway line. We won't touch that one, but the longest ride on the system with no change of trains is on the A train, which runs more than 32 miles from 207th Street in Manhattan to Far Rockaway in Queens.
For an excellent collection of subway statistics, you can go to http://www.nycsubway.org/faq /factsfigures.html, which is part of the wonderful www.nycsubway.org Web site, a product of entirely volunteer labor.
Another long route was the old QJ from Jamaica-168th St to Coney Island.
So which is it?
the longest ride on the system with no change of trains is on the A train, which runs more than 32 miles from 207th Street in Manhattan to Far Rockaway in Queens.
Isn't the Rockaway Park Branch slightly longer?
Definitely not! count the numbered streets on them.
Some do in Rush Hour.
Moreover, you can get a ticket to New Haven and take Metro North into Stamford with a railfan view.
The inland route has some wonderful scenery, especially if there is snow on the ground. You'll also get a Power Change at New Haven and I guess that counts as a "yard move".
With its $10 per round trip fee though, I doubt I'll be joyriding on it much.
When I was in O'Hare 3 years ago I was struck by how many stores and malls there were at the airport. Now that JFK is reachable by mass transit, is there any chance it can become a destination in its own right apart from air travel?
www.forgotten-ny.com
With its $10 per round trip fee though, I doubt I'll be joyriding on it much.
I think you answered your own question.
Arti
I think you answered your own question. <<<
If it gets a lot of riders maybe they could lower the fa...
What am I sayin'?
www.forgotten-ny.com
No no no no no!!! Enclosed platforms do nothing but further seperate people from the environment they live in as well as produce various problems in emergency situations. They are a needless expense.
With its $10 per round trip fee though, I doubt I'll be joyriding on it much.
Maybe if the PA hadn't spent so much on USELESS bells and whistles the fare would be more affordable.
Now that JFK is reachable by mass transit, is there any chance it can become a destination in its own right apart from air travel?
No, there are a lot better malls one can reach on 12$.
Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Riders prefer this. Some Rail buffs do not. Wantto be in touch with your environment? Ride an open-air type roller coaster at Disney World.
"produce various problems in emergency situations."
Ignorant nonsense. Sorry, but you have no idea what you're talking about.
"Now that JFK is reachable by mass transit, is there any chance it can become a destination in its own right apart from air travel? "
The reverse - Jamaica Downtown and new conference center/hotel will be a destination. Also, Jamaica now attracts hordes of ethnic buyers from as far away as Michigan to buy specific ethnic-related goods on Jamaica Av. Cheap flights and AirTrain will make these trips more frequent and offer additional options besides tour bus or rail (I'm not knocking rail).
Yes, lets climate control everything so that god forbid we never have to shed a drop of sweat and can become pale, obease flakes that suffer heart attacks if our life spport systems were to ever break down. Yes, let us also waste trillions and trillions of joules worth of energy with all the associated consiquences to do the same.
Ignorant nonsense. Sorry, but you have no idea what you're talking about.
There's a guy with a gun terrorising the station. I can escape down the trackway...awwwww man...that's right.
The reverse - Jamaica Downtown and new conference center/hotel will be a destination. Also, Jamaica now attracts hordes of ethnic buyers from as far away as Michigan to buy specific ethnic-related goods on Jamaica Av. Cheap flights and AirTrain will make these trips more frequent and offer additional options besides tour bus or rail (I'm not knocking rail).
Kevin was wondering if the AirTrain would make JFK a destination for ppl in NYC to go to as a hang out. I said no, the cost is too high.
Well, at least your heart is in the right place (what's your resting pulse rate these days?). I appreciate what you say here, even if most riders (who eat atrociously) do not.
"There's a guy with a gun terrorising the station. I can escape down the trackway...awwwww man...that's right."
And if the gunman wants you he can lean over the platform and drop you right onto the third rail - so you die of a combined lead and electricity overdose. Are you experiencing a sudden urge for a Depends? (TM). Contact Peter Rosa, authorized Subtalk distributor. :0)
"Kevin was wondering if the AirTrain would make JFK a destination for ppl in NYC to go to as a hang out. I said no, the cost is too high."
YYou'd be surprised as to how die-hard some plane buffs can be. :0)
Re your second comment the plane buffs would have been there already.
If I was the only one who saw a man walk into the 149th st/LL portal to relieve himself and no one else bothered, imagine what the calamity be if he had a bomb. (I saw an officer upstairs on the middle level and reported it. The Police Officer saw the man walk out of the portal and was arrested after a brief delay on the train. He refused to leave the train he boarded and had to be subdued by several officers.)
Now think about no Lexington Ave express service and the West side IRT is cut off from the Bronx because of a gaping hole, structual damage to both levels and the loss of an important tower.
This is 6th Ave line color level, let's be alert.
I've spent enough time waiting on unenclosed platforms to say that they are uncivilized and annoying. I'll take the enclosed platform any day. One of the reasons I've mostly stopped taking the subway to Jamaica and then the N4 bus is that I got sick of waiting around Jamaica in ice cold wind or sweltering heat and humidity for a bus that is quite often irregular or just plain late. If they built an enclosed, climate-controlled waiting area, I might think a bit differently of it.
Side thought, if it were possible to do your weigh and check in for your flight at the Jamaica Terminal, then just hop on your train to the airport. A line for prechecked baggage and go in. That idea, and on some levels AirTrain itself seems more practical for the light and/or business traveler tho, not the ones lugging a 70lbs suitcase.
Nontheless it looks and is a sweet creation
At the Jamaica terminal.
I have suggested that the PA emulate Europe's busiest airport and open up a branch of Doktor Mueller's Sex Emporium.
For the business person who will use it maybe 2 or 3 times a month, does his or her employer pick up the Airtrain fare as well as plane fare.
And what about the airport or airline employee ? He or she can buy the monthly pass reducing the rides to $1 each. On my tour of the system yesterday, I was at the railfan picture window at Jamaica. I got to talking to some airport employee who wasn't praising or knocking Airtrain. He said something to me like "now my ride is going up from $2 to $5 a ride. I then said to him, you can purchase the monthly pass and reduce the cost to $1 a ride. He paused a couple of seconds and said "gee, I didn't think about that" !
The most convient way to ride Airtrain from midtown to Jamaica is by LIRR. The subway is way too much as far as the rush hour crowds and many express stops. Just buy a ticket a Penn, put your bags where the wheelchair space is and when getting off at Jamaica, use the elevator. The elevator from the subway to the street is OOS during reconstruction.
Then there is the yellow taxi....spend $30, $35 or $40 depending on your foreign accent. Oh, yellow cab via the traffic choked Van Wyck is also a picnic.
Bill "Newkirk"
Now to get AirTrain built to LGA---I fly out of there or Newark when i do fly.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Generally they would (I know my employer paid for my $1.50 subway fare to JFK a couple of years back), but since they're often just as happy to pay for a car service or gas, tolls, and parking for your own car, there's little incentive for the business traveler to take airport mass transit unless it's VERY convenient.
With all due respect to BMTMan:
Well, there ARE airplane foamers after all. Although, it's rather ironic that now that JFK has a futuristic, sleek looking rail-link, the futuristic and sleek SSTs no longer fly...
CG
N506 and R246 are definitely huge....
-Stef
Prior to re-construction of the station, IIRC, there were up to 16 Turnstiles in use... 8 (?) of them only accepted MetroCards and were used during special events. These were locked the rest of the time.
-Stef
By the way, in the Paris Maupassent (sic) station, there is a huge, long line of turnstiles - perhaps 40. So symbolic! So unnecessary! So French!
Anyway, here are some of the exciting Pics.
The Redbird Pics
http://palter.org/~brotzman/10-13-03_LAST_REDBIRD_TRIP/
And related tower pics
http://palter.org/~brotzman/Towers/?M=D
Redbird at Flushing!!
ALP-46 at Hamilton!!
MARC HHP-8 at Baltimore!!!
GP40WH-2 #59 here on track F waiting for the return trip to DC
Note the mix of coaching stock
Here is a MARC AEM-7.
And ALP-44 4429 serving as protect power at Secaucas.
And an M-7 on the PW down below.
What is happening on the rightmost track is a reverse curve.
In the foreground it curves right, then transitions to a left
curve. The protection rails are normally a few inches inboard
of the running rails, but on a sharp curve a guard rail is
bolted to the low (inside) running rail. The protection rails
have to move a few more inches towards the center line to clear
the curve guard rail. At the point of tangency in the middle
of the reverse curve, the right hand protection rail goes
back closer to the right running rail, and the left protect
rail swings in to clear the guard rail that is starting,
leading to the unusual appearance.
=)
A wonderful view on approach to the counter
And the counter itself
www.forgotten-ny.com
I'd say it was 40th/Lowery.
The skyline is in the background, and the station closest to it on the QB viaduct is 33rd St, so it isn't that.
Looking from 40th to 33rd, one would see all downhill; this has a downhill and an uphill.
46th Street-Bliss Street
Hunter's Point to Flushing
I just noticed that the "R" of the yellow "N" and "R" letters is upside down when facing the points. --D'Oh!!
Transit should replace "R" and "Reverse" with some letter that can flip over, like "N"
Hmmm, I guess "Z" would be a recipe for disaster...(just rotate 90 deg.)
"N" and "X" are already used together...
Maybe "O":
N=Normal
O=Over to the other track.
Talk Amongst Yourselves
Such information is not always obvious and to wire it backwards than what the switch on the tower operators control board says would present a problem.
Walking into a switch trouble someplace new, your first stop would be the the Tower, or Local panel - your guide to the "lay of the land."
As for wiring snafus, there are these great inventions called blueprints, located in every case and JB.
I think the N/R magnets are consistent for CP valves...
"7B"
:-)
Put one in a blender with a Model 5 switch, and you get a Model 5A.
TA has a couple GRS boxes used with A-10's on the long point.
Solid state CC boxes are going to be used on the Canarsie from what I hear.
C'mon, we get fouling gauges, at least! Some people use the scraper to see if the "Sampson" point is open or closed.
Mainlines have been using SSCC boxes AFAIK.
Here is 9650, my host for my Final Redbird Ride
LOOK!! That damn R62 is giving me the finger!!
Here's an R62 heading off the work
She's hanging out ready for the word.
All she needs is the proper lineup
And here she goes!!!!!
The yard lead.
Going going!!!!
Gone!!
Jersey Mike and Pigs of Royal Island
These poor people, so oblivious to history.
Hey, that's ma bag!
Mmmmmm, Airflow sure is nice when the AC is broken (which it was in 9650)
And that view out the RFW.
The front...
Rust around the Rollsign
The accordian Gates
Rust around the window
Rust around the frame
COUNTY in New Brunzwick NJ. It has taken me SO long to get a non-blurred photo of this tower.
I knew the E stopped on Church and the Broadway lines (N & R) swung infront continuing down Church Street, but now see its pretty close, bout 3 400 feet?
The E looks like it has the potential to extend, if even just to the center platform of Whitehall Street (N/R)
If possible a new East River tunnel to connect the Court Street Stub in Brooklyn, Court Street Station (finally getting rid of the bottleneck between Canal and Hoyt Schermerhorn) potential to give the growing Red Hook a train line, maybe Governers Is stop (build some stuff on there)
These are all thoughts and ideas Im just throwing out that Ive been thinking of, what do you members think?
It was kind of neat
You'll be delivered near the corner of Church and Fulton Streets, across the street from "Ground Zero."
And I guess I should have specified that entrance from street via subway doesn't count, but I figured that since those weren't entrances to PATH, it would be implied.
Sounds like a subtalker fantasy to me. Doesn't the BMT Chambers St station's tracks curve in to lie directly past the end of the IND Chambers St station? If not, an E line extension would be great. However, connecting the E to the Fulton St line would just increase existing service. Besides, these days the Transit Museum lies there.
The end of the E trackage and station stretches about way passed that crossover
As for the transit museum part of me wishes the City Hall Inner Loop station (6) could be combined with the lower level of the City Hall Station (N/R) as one big space.
Too expensive, too unlikely....
Obviously the MTA will not have the funds for the appropriate flying junction, but it would prove beneficial to them in the long run.
I would also love to see some sort of direct rail service to Staten Island. It is embarrassing to tell non-New Yorkers that we have the world's greatest subway system, but it only serves four of the city's five boroughs.
Enjoy the holidays everyone, and a happy, healthy New Year to all.
Services:
C: 168 St to Euclid via Worth St
A: 207 St to Rockaways via Cranberry St-8 Av/Fulton Express
K: 207 St to Lefferts Blvd via 8 Av Express-Worth St-Fulton Express
E: Jamaica Center to WTC station--as is now
---Sir Ronald of McDonald
I am shooting for 11 PM. I have a ton of work to do. It was a great trip!
- Subwayspot.com
Doesn't it give you a bit of a thrill being on a train no one else can get on?
Time management, man :)
--Mark
2:40PM = my arrival at 225 St (approx)
2:45PM = supposed departure time of Redbirds from 242 St
3:17PM = redbirds arrived at 225 St
DAMN!
Click HERE for pics of various SubTalkers SubTalk'n it up
I almost missed my train getting this pic
I was sternly reprimanded when I tried to do that. Well, sans video.
--Mark
The train then switched to the express. I don't know where it went -- probably Westchester or maybe Mosholu.
-Stef
But judging from some of the group photos, it looks like it WAS well attended.
I had considered aborting my planned trip to New Lots and JFK to try and catch up with the trip, but didn't know whether the lunch break would be at Van Cortlandt, Wakefield or somewhere else. Of course, I would NEVER try to stow away on the trip as an unpaid imposter!! But it would be cool to have seen the Redbirds on some photo runthroughs.
I've abstained from Redbird MOD trips because the cars are still too fresh in mind. But I WILL be on this coming Saturday's R1/9 trip.
that one
Hockey Jacket
--Mark
LLLLLOOOOOOOOOKKKKKKKK OUT, AMUE'S ON THE 53RD AND 60TH ST TUBES THIS SATURDAY. Let's rock, I will have photos on that baby.
--Mark
The run from Woodlawn to the portal at Yankee Stadium has to be one of the most spectacular railfan window views I have ever recorded, not because we were going fast (in certain places, like between Burnside and Mt. Eden Ave, we were), but the sky had a beautiful color from the setting sun, it was crystal clear so the background of Manhattan skyscrapers and the Empire State Building lit up in green can be clearly seen during parts of the video, and you didn't hear a lot of meaningless drivel from foamers who think they have a 2,150 IQ when it comes to RTO and Redbird operations as the train sped above Jerome Avenue.
There were two other videographers on this trip, and we all played very nice together at the railfan window (and sometimes at the anti-railfan window), but I was really surprised that they didn't take the opportunity to record a non-stop express run, in twilight, along the Woodlawn line.
--Mark
Oh, cut out the sappy sheyit.
My favorite station! It may be dark, but it's "better than the photo I got of the 1 train running down Lex", if you know what I mean.
BTW, WTF is a "drill track" again? LOL.
I believe a drill track is defined as a track that a maximum of five people on the train are aware exists.
Only a few are worth the bother. Maybe tomorrow.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
I'm thinking of getting a digital camera for those times when SubTalk content leaves much to be desired and I need some stuff to post to get rid of the dullness.
I must say, I was impressed. The cars are wide and spacious. As soon as the train enetered the stretch along the Van Wyck Expressway it took off at a fast rate of speed. From the Van Wyck it always looked like there was only room for one set of tracks on that structure, but I saw that there was room for two.
The ride was quiet too. I noticed that the train doesn't squeal when going around curves like the subway does. I also noticed that there are no signals anywhere on the tracks (luckily I had the railfan window all to myself because everyone else was too concerned about missing their correct terminal) except where there are switches. At the switches there are two arrows: one that points straight for main line and one that curves left or right for diverging routes. The arrow for which the switch is set is lit. And there are apparently no stop arms at these signals.
The ride was quick, but I almost found myself going back to Jamaica; I didn't realize you had to change trains to get to the Howard Beach station, which was where I was going.
I'll admit, it was definitely a different experience. But at $5 a pop, I don't think I'll be railfanning on it on a regular basis.
I bet you DIDN'T know that you can railfan it for free! Yep! Take the Q10 bus from Lefferts Blvd on the (A) and you can get on the AirTrain for free at Federal Circle or any of the terminals.
No, it is just a railfan option. Non-railfans coming to JFK via the Q10 bus can now take the Q10 to their terminal of choice and avoid ever having to set foot on the AirTrain.
At some of the terminals, the bus pulls up directly in front of the building -- at others (particularly Terminals 2,3,8,9) the bus can be quite a hike from the terminal buildings. If AirTrain connections are easier, bus passengers might do well to switch to AirTrain at Federal Circle, rather than hike a long way from the bus stop to the terminal.
CG
I haven't gotten off any any of the terminals, but one coworker who was meeting some friends coming into JFK last Wednesday said the Airtrain connection to Terminal 3 is far from convenient.
I think 2 and 3 are the worst terminals at JFK -- especially now that they've shuttered the horrible TWA terminal.
CG
No. He says he had to cross a median-separated access road and was nearly hit by a car travelling on the LEFT, then had to walk about 200' on an eight-foot-wide sidewalk.
I will be going railfanning next week on airtrain
The only people with a legitimate gripe about the loss of the free shuttle bus are those who've already used up a bus/subway transfer in order to get onto the A train.
CG
I'm sure there are going to be people next Christmas time that will be stating they didn't know about Airtrain, How much it costs, No more free shuttle buses, How to use Federal Circle and the like. No matter how many announcements are put up by TA or PA or how many times we mention again in subtalk.
And anyone traveling at night.
And anyone who has difficulty climbing two flights to an elevated platform with luggage.
And, if the Q10 stops serving the terminal loop (as has already been announced for the Q3 and B15), everyone not flying to or from Terminal 4.
Oh, and we can't forget the park-and-riders at Howard Beach, who now have to pay $40 per month in AirTrain fares to not ride the AirTrain.
One (perhaps seemingly unrelated) question. Am I correct in assuming, when Idlewild was first built, the property was acquired by means of eminent domain? Actually, I'm curious specifically about the long term parking lot near the Howard Beach station.
They can transfer at Lefferts too. Both of them.
"And anyone traveling at night"
Q10 runs every 30 minutes all night long.
"And anyone who has difficulty climbing two flights to an elevated platform with luggage."
...but was able to handle the up over and down at the old Howard Beach station.
"And, if the Q10 stops serving the terminal loop (as has already been announced for the Q3 and B15), everyone not flying to or from Terminal 4"
...only if they lack the mental capacity to get on the airtrain for free at Federal Circle or T4.
"Oh, and we can't forget the park-and-riders at Howard Beach, who now have to pay $40 per month in AirTrain fares to not ride the AirTrain."
I believe the PA missed the boat on this issue. I imagine they'll find a solution or else these folks will be park and riding from Aqueduct very soon (you can do that, can't you?)
"One (perhaps seemingly unrelated) question. Am I correct in assuming, when Idlewild was first built, the property was acquired by means of eminent domain? Actually, I'm curious specifically about the long term parking lot near the Howard Beach station."
I have no idea. I can only answer questions in such a way as to imply that the Q10 bus solves all of the worlds problems.
CG
After 1 am the bus runs more like every hour. Around 3-4 am there is a 90 minute gap between buses.
Q10 early AM arrivals at T4: 1:39, 2:09, 2:39, 3:04, 3:34, 4:04, 4:34, 4:54, 5:14, 5:34. Not a single gap longer than 30 minutes.
At a cost of at least 45 minutes, and an additional transfer with two flights of stairs.
Q10 runs every 30 minutes all night long.
But the A train doesn't run to Lefferts at night. Tack on a transfer to the shuttle.
...but was able to handle the up over and down at the old Howard Beach station.
Manhattan-bound?
...only if they lack the mental capacity to get on the airtrain for free at Federal Circle or T4.
Or if they're turned off by the need to make yet another transfer that they never had to make before. (Incidentally, someone pointed out that transfers at Federal Circle are across a traffic circle with no crosswalks, and transfers at T4 are hardly convenient either.)
I never said that it was impossible to get to the airport for a single subway fare,. only that it's become more difficult and time-consuming. If an AirTrain ride is really worth $5, the Port Authority shouldn't have to do away with competing options to attract passengers.
I believe the PA missed the boat on this issue. I imagine they'll find a solution or else these folks will be park and riding from Aqueduct very soon (you can do that, can't you?)
What sort of solution did you have in mind? As long as an AirTrain fare is charged from the neighborhood and the subway but not from the parking lot, there must be a fare control barrier between the subway and the parking lot.
Actually in the 60's and 70's when the BigA would normally get 25,000+ attendence on weekdays and 30,000-50,000 on weekends and holidays that parking lot was always used. I always parked there in the 70's as it was easy to get onto the E/B Belt after the last race and remember riding the free parking lot shuttle bus over the bridge. That was when I didn't take the "A" train there.
There's a transfer between the A and Q10 at Lefferts Boulevard. It's a similarly-priced option, provided you didn't transfer to the A train from a bus.
I thought you took the 3 to the B15 anyway.
Maybe I misread you. But if you got a transfer on the Q60, you wouldn't have been able to use it on the Q60.
Yes, as the Queens bus map shows.
If it does why should anyone get Airtrain at Lefferts?
Airtrain doesn't serve Lefferts.
Yes it does.
Yes it does
Okay let me rephrase this - the Airtrain station on Lefferts Blvd is nowhere near the Lefferts Blvd station that is the terminus of the A train. Happy?
No, it didn't.
But he had stated he stands corrected so I'll let it go at that.
KC Transit can take you to the airport here for $1, and it's cheap compared to a $40 cab ride, but your layover at the downtown transit center (and open-air square of concrete, miserable in summer and winter) can be up to an hour.
Looks like I might be able to plan another outing out to JFK! :-)
--Mark
But if you exit at Jamaica, it's $5. You can return to the airport for free and exit by bus.
Lets not forget about the B15 and the Q3!
I left at 7:55 am and took the (8:32 403 bus/mis-judged the bus schedule) NJT bus into Philly. Missed the 9:00 train so I had to take the 10:00 R7 Market East to Trenton. Noe this where NJT's light rail would come into play, I would take the next departure out of Camden [since the line runs every half-hour] and connected with the next NJT train out of Trenton, and got to NYC about 1 hour [or more]earlier.
At Trenton, got on the NEC train, noticed it got REAL crowded at New Brunswick, and it was SRO all the way. NJT should seriously re-consider the headways on this train on weekends, but since this line gets overcrowded during rush hours, seeing a packed train on weekends is no surprise.
After fighting the crowd to get off at Newark, I transfereed to the PATH. Rode it to the WTC Station. Seeing the bathtub as the train went through is an incredible and somewhat depressing site, a reminder of what once was there, but the PA did a wonderful job of restoration. After I got off, I went to the Metrocard machine and put in $20 and got $22 in fares.
Got on the A at Chambers St. had to pass up a Lefferts train so I can get on a Rockaway train. [Why doesn't the MTA run the C to Lefferts, and the A to both ends of the Rockaways? it's so much easier than the current setup.]
Like the A express ride, but I noticed something. Why are even the MTA express trains run so slow? They are molasses compared to the rockets SEPTA runs on the Broad St Subway. On that line you know you're going fast. On the MTA, the signs say "Express", but the actual feeling on the train is much slower.
At Howard Beach, I got on the AIRTRAIN. What a kewl! train ride, wide spacious cars, comfy seats and that RAILFAN WINDOW to die for!
Rode on all three routes, round trip before I finally went to Jamaica. Best 10 bucks I spent, and now JFK will have a prominent place on my NYC iteineraries in the future, thanks to the quick AIRTRAIN. Oh by the way, stay away form FEDERAL CIRCLE. The horrid smell fron the sewage treatment plant nearby wil make you sick!
From Jamaica, I got on the E train, however, I noticed how AWFUL the Sutphin Blvd station looks and the damn thing is only 15 years old. Leaks and trash make this station really nasty looking, a far cry from how Howard Beach looks. MTA should find a way to spruce up this station.
The E ride was more to my liking when it comes to speed, the R32 barreling down the express tracks. Got off at 7th av, caught the D to 125 St.
Now most of my Christmas visits to NYC usually see me going down 5th ave, but I went across 125th St, and it was just as packed as 5th Ave is on a holiday. The traffic was bumper to bumper, with it moving around 4 mph [that must be fast]. Got on the M101 [ a New Flyer Artic - Fare box was broken so the ride was free!] and enjoyed the ride on Lexington Ave. I'm glad MTA finally decided to pull the trigger on Articulated buses. They can handle the crowds put on them especially on the East Side bus routes. Got off at 14th st, rode the M14A to 9th ave to go to Western Beef to get some of the rare type of salami I like to get from the store.
Back to 8th ave, on the C train to Chambers-WTC, then through the WTC station again, used my Metrocard through the turnstile [can't wait for PATH to equip all of their stations with these turnstiles, that would make things a lot easier for dual system riders.], saw thebathtub in the light [said a little prayed for all of the souls lost there] and went on my merry way to Newark to get the NEC train then the R7 to Filthydelphia.
What do I like about the trip, AIRTRAIN rocks! But I get this feeling that despite it's newness, in its present form, this system is already "obsolete". Now that's a relative term, but for all of the money they spent on it, they could have built it to run directly to Manhattan in some form.
The next time I will go to NYC, I hope to start my ride on the River Line [or SNJLRTS].
Merry Chrismas
MdlBigcat@comcast.net
Mark De Loatch
P.S. I will post the pics from the trip soon. I must clean out my storage boxes at Yahoo and MSN in order for me to post more pics.
As long as one of the two tubes into Manhattan is closed for reconstruction on weekends, the other one has to alternate traffic into and out of NYP, so there's no room for additional NJT service.
If you have two NEC trains, one Coast Line and one Midtown Direct leaving NYP during the 25 minute window, and Amtrak has a Regional plus a Metroliner or Acela plus a Keystone or long distance train, there's no room with the announced 3 minute headway to add another train; nor is there room for one of the trains to be 3 minutes late.
I left at 7:55 am and took the (8:32 403 bus/mis-judged the bus schedule) NJT bus into Philly. Missed the 9:00 train so I had to take the 10:00 R7 Market East to Trenton. Noe this where NJT's light rail would come into play, I would take the next departure out of Camden [since the line runs every half-hour] and connected with the next NJT train out of Trenton, and got to NYC about 1 hour [or more]earlier.
At Trenton, got on the NEC train, noticed it got REAL crowded at New Brunswick, and it was SRO all the way. NJT should seriously re-consider the headways on this train on weekends, but since this line gets overcrowded during rush hours, seeing a packed train on weekends is no surprise.
After fighting the crowd to get off at Newark, I transfereed to the PATH. Rode it to the WTC Station. Seeing the bathtub as the train went through is an incredible and somewhat depressing site, a reminder of what once was there, but the PA did a wonderful job of restoration. After I got off, I went to the Metrocard machine and put in $20 and got $22 in fares.
Got on the A at Chambers St. had to pass up a Lefferts train so I can get on a Rockaway train. [Why doesn't the MTA run the C to Lefferts, and the A to both ends of the Rockaways? it's so much easier than the current setup.]
Like the A express ride, but I noticed something. Why are even the MTA express trains run so slow? They are molasses compared to the rockets SEPTA runs on the Broad St Subway. On that line you know you're going fast. On the MTA, the signs say "Express", but the actual feeling on the train is much slower.
At Howard Beach, I got on the AIRTRAIN. What a kewl! train ride, wide spacious cars, comfy seats and that RAILFAN WINDOW to die for!
Rode on all three routes, round trip before I finally went to Jamaica. Best 10 bucks I spent, and now JFK will have a prominent place on my NYC iteineraries in the future, thanks to the quick AIRTRAIN. Oh by the way, stay away form FEDERAL CIRCLE. The horrid smell fron the sewage treatment plant nearby wil make you sick!
From Jamaica, I got on the E train, however, I noticed how AWFUL the Sutphin Blvd station looks and the damn thing is only 15 years old. Leaks and trash make this station really nasty looking, a far cry from how Howard Beach looks. MTA should find a way to spruce up this station.
The E ride was more to my liking when it comes to speed, the R32 barreling down the express tracks. Got off at 7th av, caught the D to 125 St.
Now most of my Christmas visits to NYC usually see me going down 5th ave, but I went across 125th St, and it was just as packed as 5th Ave is on a holiday. The traffic was bumper to bumper, with it moving around 4 mph [that must be fast]. Got on the M101 [ a New Flyer Artic - Fare box was broken so the ride was free!] and enjoyed the ride on Lexington Ave. I'm glad MTA finally decided to pull the trigger on Articulated buses. They can handle the crowds put on them especially on the East Side bus routes. Got off at 14th st, rode the M14A to 9th ave to go to Western Beef to get some of the rare type of salami I like to get from the store.
Back to 8th ave, on the C train to Chambers-WTC, then through the WTC station again, used my Metrocard through the turnstile [can't wait for PATH to equip all of their stations with these turnstiles, that would make things a lot easier for dual system riders.], saw thebathtub in the light [said a little prayed for all of the souls lost there] and went on my merry way to Newark to get the NEC train then the R7 to Filthydelphia.
What do I like about the trip, AIRTRAIN rocks! But I get this feeling that despite it's newness, in its present form, this system is already "obsolete". Now that's a relative term, but for all of the money they spent on it, they could have built it to run directly to Manhattan in some form.
The next time I will go to NYC, I hope to start my ride on the River Line [or SNJLRTS].
Merry Chrismas
MdlBigcat@comcast.net
Mark De Loatch
P.S. I will post the pics from the trip soon. I must clean out my storage boxes at Yahoo and MSN in order for me to post more pics.
Are you sure? I bought a $20 card and got $24 in fares. You get 6 rides for the price of 5 ($12 CARD FOR $10 CASH PAYMENT).
The turnstile read-out should say $22 Remaining after you've swiped it for the first time to enter, meaning you have $22 plus the current ride you're taking.
and so on.
The ride would have been free for you anyway. You gained nothing.
I agree that NJ Transit should add some trains over the weekend: the current trains are comfortably full, and ridership is still growing.
To David of Broadway and Sir Ronald of McDonald: you are going to love the "thisis.wav" file. We really heard it right?
We heard the real shizzle.
Where'd you hear that?
Bombardier makes quality products...except for those R142s in the 6300-6699 range.
True, but luckily the 2 (that crappy line that I refuse to record) gets stuck with them, so it all works out.
Which line were you on when you heard that? Also, which line is 76th st on?
That narrows down your choices a lot; it eliminates three boroughs!
The "100" must have been screwed up somehow. I remember being on an L train not too long ago, and one announcement sounded kinda like this:
This is...[garbled] --erson Street.
Needless to say, the Jefferson Street announcement was a bit screwed up.
Enjoy!
I am going to post pics later on.
-Stef
And.. HA strikes again:
--
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
The project is in candidate status, and there is the usual NIMBY factor.
Also, I would like to see commuter ops restored on the River Line at least as far north as Haverstraw, but preferably up to Newburgh. Of course, this would require agreements between NJT and Metro-North. I know there has been talk of crossing the Hudson at Nyack/Tarrytown (either by tunnel or bridge) and connecting to the Hudson line, but I doubt I will see this in my lifetime. Until such time as a connection is made (if ever) would it not be more prudent to run commuter trains down the River Line and into Hoboken? Also this would serve communities in New Jersey that would not be served by a Hudson River crossing.
Since we haven't seen any new commuter rail lines since 1989 when the Atlantic City Rail line was reopened
That was with Amtrak’s help. NJ Transit would never have done that on their own.
Of course, I have a vested interest in the Lackawanna Cutoff getting built first, since it goes to where I live now…but if the MOM were to get rolling first, I would not begrudge those who would be served by it…
Extension of Morristown/Boonton service from Netcong to Hackettstown
Hamilton station
HBLR MOS-1
Montclair Connection
Newark City Subway upgrade/extension
Newark Airport rail station
Penn Station East End Concourse
Secaucus Transfer
and soon...
HBLR MOS-2
SJLRTS
I did mention it, as Secaucus Transfer. You may be thinking of the Kearney Connection (dba MidTown Direct), which I forgot.
"Harbourfront Connection" (allowing for the trains from Bay Head and/or Raritan to get to Hoboken).
There are no harbours in the United States :-) That's the Waterfront Connection, which I also forgot and thank you for reminding me.
Yes there are. It's in Tennessee:
Yes I did.
Bengen Tunnel and Hoboken Terminal re-novations
No I didn't. Renovations don't count, only novations.
and extension of AC Line service to 30th St.
The service used to end at Lindenwold? Why?
Actually, given the conditions of both the tunnels and the terminal waiting room both were Habilitations.
The service used to end at Lindenwold? Why?
When Amtrak was still involved they had the monopoly on through Philly to AC traffic. NJT ran b/t Lindenwold and AC. When Amtrak Left NJT took over the 30th St run and also constructed the Cherry Hill station.
Identify where this train is headed.
If you win.... Dunno what I'll do yet, I'll probably PayPal you some cash, like $5-10, since this is easy.
YOu've got till wednesday to figure it out.
Arti
Identify where this train is headed.
If you win.... I'll probably PayPal you some cash, since i don't know how hard this one is .
You've got till wednesday to figure it out.
They could switch it to and from the (1) track like they used to, if they wanted to!
Bob Sklar
Thanks to all those that played my little trivia game. There probably won't be another round of "The ultimate Railfan" until I get some announcemnts for places that you wouldn't think of guessing.
it's insane how the first guesses were accurate.
WGG6T
Got it in less than a minute! :-D
Nah, I'd just guessed that as you'd been out recording oddball 5 trains, with the first one being Utica, the next one was probably New Lots!
He did a good job in Gettysburgtoo!
For example, how about a special luggage-rack equipped bus that would follow the Q30 or Q31 route, but would NOT use Jamaica Avenue? Instead, it would terminate at a headhouse like bay on an adjacent, less crowded street, where passengers would ride an elevator or escalator, then use a moving walkway to get into Jamaica Station?
If I recall correctly, I think that the projections for the Jamaica leg worked out to an average of 10-15 or so passengers getting off each arriving AirTrain. When you consider how those people will fan out from Jamaica (or even twice that many people) dedicated bus lines to the local communities don't make sense to me.
One thing that I think might be worth looking into would be to extend selected trips on lines that currently terminate in Jamaica to the current Q30/31 terminal near the LIRR station and create a covered connection to both LIRR/Subway/Aitrain there.
CG
It's a pretty tight squeeze.
They are the last 4 on page 2 (from Whitlock Ave), all of page 3, and (as of today) all of page 4 of "Around New York 4".
Phil Hom
This fellow poster, a rabid metrocard collector asked me to stop over at AirTrain to get the new AirTrain metrocard.
Me being the great guy that I am, said sure why not and now I won't have to buy him lunch to help defray the carpool costs.
So off the train at Jamaica, and there is a sign pointing me to the overhead ramp that connects all tracks and I walk over to Airtrain.
Now this collector wants the wrapped metrocard from a booth there. Well the problem was that AirTrain was FREE Sunday. No one at the booth but people telling me that it was FREE. I said "Thank you I know" and walked over to the bank of Metrocard vending machines.
As I plugged away at the machine, now determined to buy two cards, it felt like 7 different people in red jackets came up to me trying to tell me in 17 different languages that Airtrain was free today.
I had the exact same problem communicating to them that there is the crazy guy that collects metrocards and that I KNOW IT IS FREE TODAY, I still want a metrocard (hey they can be used on the subway and PATH you know).
Needless to say everyone got a laugh (at me I think) and got two cards and now attempted to find my way to the street. There is no signs if you get to this point and don't ride airtrain. I hope people don't take their relatives to the gate of airtrian and leave because they will be totally lost. I went back the way I came and currently there is no way to the street, or a sign telling you to go down to the platform to get to the street. Very poor planning.
So to you Metrocard nuts out there, the MVM's at Airtrain are selling the new Airtrain MVM. You don't need to put in 5 bucks, just by the 4 dollars and you'll get one.
Thanks for listening.
Funny thing no one told me about it. I should know because I work there. Granted I was off Sunday. But I spoke to TA people who worked there and they didn't know about it.
Peace,
ANDEE
#3 West End Jeff
Peace,
ANDEE
The move brought Bob Diamond - whose life's mission has been to return the clanging cars to Brooklyn - to tears last week as he watched construction workers toil on Conover St.
He lamented that the line he envisioned as stretching from Red Hook to downtown Brooklyn was never completed after the city halted funding two years ago.
"The people running the city have no foresight and vision for the future," said Diamond, 44, who said he spent $100,000 of his own money on the tracks.
"I would say for the money they spent removing the tracks, they could have just finished it," he added.
Unlike the Red Hook line's slow, fitful and incomplete creation over the past decade, the work to remove tracks and freshly pave over the streets will be swift, promised Matt Monahan, spokesman for the city's Design and Construction Department.
"We'll be cleaning those blocks and removing tracks to make them safe and drivable by January," Monahan said.
The uncompleted tracks, as well as garbage that had collected there, made the streets impassable for cars, he added.
Meanwhile, the last remaining vestiges of Diamond's failed dream - the historic trolley cars themselves - are in jeopardy.
Diamond was served with eviction papers demanding he remove five historic trolley cars stored at the nearby Beard St. pier by the end of this month. But the trolley cars are trapped there, he said, because of an August 2001 barge accident that severed rail lines.
"There's no way to get them out of the building short of cutting them up into little pieces," Diamond said.
The trolley tracks that are being removed once led to a warehouse on the Beard St. pier, where trolley cars would have rolled out to pick up commuters.
Originally published on December 22, 2003
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
And when someone who ain't loved by politicos don't *PAY* ... well then ... Been there, done that, live in the mountains myself. :(
How many other streets have an open five-foot-wide trench in them? I'd venture to guess BHRA's street opening permit expired long ago.
Their vision for the future apparently is to erase as much of the past as possible. They are now looking into plans to obliterate much of old downtown Brooklyn, and turn it into another skyscraper canyon. The Nets arena plan wants to take over several blocks around it. Just build on the open space, why do they need so much more to put up modern boxes?
They plan to take a mostly moribund area and turn it into a vital business center.
This isn't obliteration of history, it's embracing the future, otherwise the occupied city will continue to sink into mediocrity.
The Nets arena plan wants to take over several blocks around it. Just build on the open space, why do they need so much more to put up modern boxes?
Because the modern boxes fit more people, have more business and create greater property tax revenue. The last point is mostly irrelevant since there will probably be tax breaks, but build enough and people may want to build without the tax breaks.
How is building Class A office space in Downtown Brooklyn "destroying something that was gonna [sic] replicate something of the past?"
On the contrary, building office towers in Downtown Brooklyn would replicate the prosperous times of days yore.
Whatever next, an El in Downtown Brooklyn? :-D
Creating more commercial areas is a great thing, and for downtown brookyln, should help make it even better.
And I agree
NYC is a body and each part serves its particiular function. I mean you wouldn't want to have an extra heart in your legs.
Nothing says that a city may have only one central business district. Los Angeles has two, Downtown and Century City, and New York already has two, Midtown and Downtown. Making downtown Brooklyn into a true central business district would be a win-win proposition for everyone involved. Not to mention a pro-transit outcome, given the area's excellent transit connections.
Midtown and Downtown are essentially just two parts of the same whole...Town. In fact they'll probably meet at some pointin the future.
Not to mention a pro-transit outcome, given the area's excellent transit connections.
Huh? Are you kidding? People from Long Island might get there ok, but what about people comming from New Jersey??? What about Westchester??? The point of a single bussiness distruct is that you don't need to duplicate transit infrastructure.
And Downtown Brooklyn can be recognised as the third part of that whole, meeting Downtown Manhattan across the Brooklyn Bridge.
Shopping Centers-Fulton Av mall.
Museums-There are a few around
Shame on the city
www.forgotten-ny.com
> My understanding of the whole situation is that Mr. Diamond
> doesn't play well with others and has repeatedly cried wolf.
Your understanding is correct. It's been pointed out on this board repeatedly.
> All we know of the story is what Bob says to the papers,
> notice the papers never ask the city what their side is?
One thing that Mr. Diamond seems to be good at is getting media attention.
It's one thing calling the Airtrain Light Rail, it's quite another calling it a trolley.
76th Street to a Transit buff is like Area 51 to a Sci Fi buff - Because we can't check it out for ourselves - some of us think there is something there no matter what anyone says and we can't prove it one way or the other. Inquiring minds want to know ;-)
In fact it never did open - I think we all agree on that much...
Any advice would be welcome.
If youre typing something long (which is usually where the typos creep in), try using a word processor instead. Dont try to use any of the text highlighting features while you are using the word processorthey wont in general workif you want emphasis etc, you have to type in the HTML itself. Then you can use your WPs spell check.
Finally, just select the text you want, copy it and paste it into the message box on Subtalk.
I have a copule of techniques I use for long copy: I read what I have written twice, once backwards, a sentence at a time, looking for spelling, punctuation, grammar mistakes; once forwards, checking flow and context.
Hope this helps.
SpelChek
It has code that can be added to this WebBBS-based board to allow spell checking.
1) Dave has done extensive customization of the WebBBS scripts used on SubTalk, so third-party add-ons may not work.
2) Wouldn't it make more sense for people just to become literate and actually proofread their posts using the "Preview" feature, rather than expecting to be bailed out by the website host?
Peace,
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
Amen!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
2) Wouldn't it make more sense for people just to become literate and actually proofread their posts using the "Preview" feature, rather than expecting to be bailed out by the website host?
3) I want PROFF!!!
Could do a low-end server-side spell checker, assuming
you are still UNIX on the backend, for a few lines of
Perl code.
@speltrong=`echo $msg | spell`;
$pat="\b".join('|',@speltrong)."\b";
$msg=~s/$pat/<B>$1</B>/g;
Well, you get the idea. But it is "batch mode", not the annoying
interactive, pop-up, "may I suggest" spell checkers that computer
users today demand.
And I see from Preview that it mangled my example above, which
was supposed to surround each wrong word with HTML bolding
directives.
Whatever works! :-D
--Mark
Otherwise, the next time you are in Staples, look around for a Spell Check utility. It runs in the background on your computer, and examines the key strokes for correct spelling regardless of what program you are using.
I have not tried it, because I do not want more background programs running on my puters than I actually need.
Or try tucows.com and look for spell check programs there.
Elias
For IE users, I find this to be an amazing program. Use it!
Chuck Greene
Any advice would be welcome.
Do what I do. Open your favorite word processor, MS Word, Word perfect or what ever you have installed on your system. In my case MS Word 95. Copy any text that you intend to quote in to the post your are responding to into your word processor. Compose your response. Wash it through the spell checker. Then copy and past in to the post message field. Use the "Preview message before posting" button to make sure every thing looks OK. Use the "back" button in your web browser to return to the post message field. Once every thing looks the way you want click the "post message" button. If you dont have a Word processor with a spell check use a dictionary or ask someone how to spell the word in question.
You should be able to purchase an older version of MS Word or, Word perfect with a spell check function off ebay.com for a fraction of what you would pay for the latest version. All you are looking for is the spell checker 95% of the stuff that the word processor will do you will never use.
Believe me this 40 plus year old is a lousy speller. However my spelling has improved greatly over the years that I have been posting massages on USNET. Mind you I still need the aid of a spell checker.
John
PS I used the "Preview message before posting" button four time before posting this message.
Aside from using the preview and back buttons and typing my massage in MS Word, the only other key strokes I use are Control A (Select all), Control C (Copy), right click in massage field and select all and Control V (Paste). Pretty simple if you ask me.
John
This is why I suggest reading backwards: it forces you to look at each word!
LU made exactly the same mistake:
(Not my picture - I downloaded it some time ago and can't remember where I found it!)
Of course I'm right! I'm Sir Ronald of McDonald!
OK, I should have used the preview button five times.
John
That's TEN cars! I did a triple take when I saw that, and re-counted the cars as the train left northbound on the southbound express track, back towards Jamaica Yard. There were ten of them!
Strange things happen during the wee hours of the morning!
And NO, I wasn't on anything when I saw this! I was a little bit tired, but I was alert enough to count the cars, count one per car, and enter the northernmost of each set of cars on my watch (it has a memo feature). There were TEN of them! 10! 10! 10!
Oh, did I mention that this was a 10-car train of R46's that I saw?
IIRC, the JFK Express R-46 consists were 3 cars (ABA)
North
01: 6238
02: 6236
03: 5998
04: 5999
05: 6001
06: 6000
07: 5598
08: 5599
09: 5601
10: 5600
South
And I know that a train of 10 75' cars could not possible fit into a station with platforms 660' long.
But that's exactly what I saw!!!
Robert
Maybe not now, but there was until 1955.
avid
I thought providing the car numbers would be enough, but it seems that people are taking this with a grain of salt, despite the fact that I was an eyewitness of the events described in the first post of the thread.
avid
Robert
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
Robert
10 75 footers in a drag is ok y'all. He wasn't dreaming.
I've got both beat - a 14-car PATH train:
836-801-602-165-815-884-875-685-636-840-170-825-842-893
Seen outside of Journal Square on Sunday, November 23rd around 3:15 PM. This was the two special trains (836 ... 875) and (685 ... 893) from the WTC re-opening ceremony coupled together.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
Technically its not ten 75 footers. The slant fronted cab cars on bart (A units) are 75, the cabless cars (B units) are 70 as are the C units and C2 units. So your ten car bart train with a consist ABBBBBBBBA would be 710 long, not 750 with ten 75 NYCTA R46 cars.
John
I was thinking rearranginging the cars with an R40 with an R40 slant with a similar number.
For example:
4400-4501 with 4401-4500
Then use the R42's in the middle between the cars.
Puts pacifier back in and sucks twice
< Reality >
Yeah, I know I'm being silly here, but there is a valid thought contained herein.
1) If you pay fare on the subway, do you only pay $3 extra on AirTrain, or do you have to pay a whole $5 for a $7 one-way trip?
2) If you pay fare on a bus, then transfer for free to the subway, do you pay $5 on AirTrain or $3?
3) If you first pay fare on AirTrain, $5, do you get a free transfer to a bus or subway?
4) What senior-citizen discounts, if any, are related to AirTrain, and do they include transfers to buses/subways?
5) Is Metrocard the only way to pay?
6) I have to take a bus to a subway to get to AirTrain and I only want to get into the AirTrain system, not go anywhere in particular. Does it make sense to do this to save on the fare:
-Bus to subway to Kew Gardens for Q10 for AirTrain
instead of
-Bus to subway to Jamaica for AirTrain
Once again, I apologize for any repeated questions from previous threads. I will try to avoid doing this in the future.
Peace,
ANDEE
The Airtrain is free only within the confines of the airport (between airline terminals)
All AirTrain passengers (people going to meet someone, someone flying, etc.) have to pay the $5 AirTrain fare if they get on at Howard Beach of Jamaica. The fare is also collected if you leave the system at Howard Beach or Jamaica.
2) $5
3) No
4) None, AFAIK.
5) Yes
6) Bus to subway to Kew Gardens for Q10 for AirTrain
3) No free transfers from Airtrain to subway or buses. Seperate fares.
4) No s/c or h/c discounts on Airtrain. Again no transfers.
5) Metrocard is the only way to pay.
6) Take the E or F to Union Turnpike, J to 121 Street or A to Lefferts Blvd. (Get the correct train!) and take the Q10 to to Federal Circle and take Airtrain from there. Pay only $1.50. At Howard Beach and Jamaica you'd have to pay $5 to enter. (Not to mention $5 to exit) Other stations airtrain is free. You can take airtrain to go around the airport all day.
7) You didn't ask. But Subway unlimited metrocards will NOT work on airtrain. Airtrain unlimited metrocards will NOT work on subway.
Sometimes it's worth it to ask questions and have them answered again once in a while. Not everyone has read previous threads. Especially this time of year when newbies are getting computers for Christmas and are finding this room for the first time. I don't think this info has been added to FAQ either.
1)NYCT Subway $2 paid
2)Q10 Bus Free Transfer
3)Air Train at a station other than Jamaica/Howard Beach Free
4)JFK Shuttle bus (is it still running?) back to Howard Beach station Free
5)NYCT Subway home $2 paid
Making for a $4 trip?
Also one more question: Even though you have to pay to exit/enter at Jamaica/Howard Beach, you can still just get off the train there to see the stations and look around without going outside fare control right?
Everything except 4)
Also one more question: Even though you have to pay to exit/enter at Jamaica/Howard Beach, you can still just get off the train there to see the stations and look around without going outside fare control right?
Yes.
2) Q10 with Metrocard, $1.50 a ride. 50 cent "step up charge" when transfering to subway.
3) Airtrain like you said. It's also free to detrain at Howard Beach or Jamaica, look around and take the next airtrain out.
4) JFK Shuttle bus. The Blue, yellow and something else colored bus seems to be still running around the parking lots. But will not connect with the subway.
5) Yes $4 for round trip via subway. But the way things are set up now it'll be difficult to ride Airtrain without having to Pay for it. Best you can do now is to take the A to Lefferts Blvd, transfer to the Q10 bus and takr the bus to Federal Circle for Airtrain. Maybe you can take the Q10 to Lefferts Station for Airtrain. But I don't think it's a short walk from the nearest bus stop to the airtrain station.
Extra Question See 3)
The answer is simple. Get on Airtrain anywhere but Howard Beach or Jamaica. This way you won't have to pay $5 for it. Airtrain will stop at all the major terminals. But It's not clear if the Q10, B15 or Q3 buses still go to JFK. I think they still go to the airport. I might be wrong about it or that is about to change. All I'm sure about is that the Q10 still goes to Federal Circle. How far you'd have to walk from bus stop to airtrain stop, I don't know. Also I wouldn't walk around Fereral Circle late at night.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.5 Now Available!
No; as long as you stay in the system, you do not have to pay again.
To the same end, if I enter at Jamaica and leave at Jamaica will they get me entering and leaving the system?
Yes; you pay both entering and leaving Howard Beach (A train/Coleman Square exit only, not long-term parking) and Jamaica.
**********************************************************************
Man, and they just finished rebuilging AF interlocking. That's like buying a new car and wraping it around a tree on the way home from the dealers. Oh well, what does one expect from CSX in terms of track maintainence.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12222003.shtml#CSX
wayne
Story I heard was that a fractured wheel was found on one of the freight cars involved in the derailment. Of course, it may have fractured AFTER the derailment, and not before.
AEM7
Easy to tell if I had a picture of the said wheel. Since I don't have a picture, and I'm nowhere near Alexandria, I'm not in a position to know. (And my contact is not a metallurgist). I'm leaning towards a metal failure causing a derailment, but this is pure speculation at this point.
AEM7
Actually, yes. But there are other types of failures that can occur. Metal fractures that are caused by derailment you'll be looking for 'blunt trauma' on the metal, i.e. plastic deformation. But something that was cracking already might also have opened up after derailment. For the wheel, I would be looking for a wheelflat or something of that sort, or weld marks (welded wheels are not supposed to travel on the mainline). But again, I have not seen the photo of the wheel, so all I can do is speculate, or hope someone had paid attention and took pictures of the failures.
AEM7
This was all new track.
**********************************************************************
Yes, despite the fact that the train goes neither down nor east, people still ride it. Next time I head up to Boston I am planning to ride it because of the cheap fares.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12222003.shtml#Downeaster
I haven't ridden it yet. What about a day trip?
AEM7
It's a nice ride, and last fall winter came early and Portland was snow covered on Oct 23rd, my day of departure.
BTW, Portland bus schedules are abomoinable, so give yourself PLENTY of time. I waited half an hour for a bus to the depot and had to get to the platform in a dead run to get the departing train
www.forgotten-ny.com
I don't know if you've ever ridden the hudson line on MN, but which is better in your opinion.
Kevin, the recommended way to transfer between North and South side Boston Amtrak Service is via the Orange Line and Back Bay Station. The fact is they DID coordinate their schedules, based on assumptions that transfer passengers will take the Orange Line and be 'just in time' at the station.
AEM7
: (
Mark
[Hand slapping forehead]
Ouch...gotta try that next time....
www.forgotten-ny.com
It's the Holy Roman Empire of train routes.
Mark
Mark
But it's still a ride I'd like to take someday. I've only visited Maine once, but I found it a wonderful place for outdoor adventure and I hope I can go back someday. The fact that I can now go by train just makes me want to go back even more.
Mark
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hmmm, given that recent Hot Times I don't think that tutch would be none too happy with these new rules. Oh well, at least it will help to remove idiots from the gene pool.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12222003.shtml#Many
HORNS RULE!
NIMBYS DROOL!
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Well, since it is running so smoothly I guess this means that the Govinator can cut the funding.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12222003.shtml#California
Hasta La Vista, train!
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Hmmm, this sounds surprisingly like "So Long Metroliner, Call it ACELA." I don't know what's worse, these new names or the fact that some Con-insultant got paid mucho bucks to invent it.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12222003.shtml#So
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Awwww, poor Joe Bruno, now he'll only have two stations named after him.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12222003.shtml#Schenectady
At least I used to live not far from Schenectady Avenue Dr. Wesley McDonald Holder Avenue.
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I think that Rhoad Island and/or the Prodivence Plantations should stop bitching. They probably have more Amtrak coverage than any other state.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12222003.shtml#Warwick
Just because the tracks take up 33% of the state's land area, there are still only three stations :). None of them are near the airport.
All existing rail service is in Providence Plantations; Rhode Island has no rail service whatsoever, except for the Newport Dinner Train, and any hope of reviving the Old Colony East Bay Branch died when it was rail-trailed. Maybe a monorail down the middle of 114...?
No, that sounds more like a MASSACHUSETTS idea
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Too bad Mass used up all its Federal transportation dollars for about the next thousand years with that Big Dig debaccle.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12222003.shtml#Bay
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I know, VA, MD and DC could conjure up a state-federal Port Authority that could use vagueness in reguading who actually controls it to run amok and build its own, independent line from a VRE station, to Dulles and then to the Orange Metro Line that is completely incompatible with both and is way overpriced.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12222003.shtml#Dulles
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Wait wait...I'm confused....wasn't there something recently about some sort of "Air Train" that already connects to JFK by rail and cost a lot of money to build?? Aaaa. I'm probably just making it up. I mean why would a respected congressperson try to propose a completely redundent waste of money.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12222003.shtml#Schumer
My question is this: Will this be a LIRR style operation and convert airtrain to LIRR standards and type equipment, or will this be an extension of the current airtrain in its current form?
1) AirTrain is PANYNJ, LIRR is MTA. Who gets the money?
2) Fare control? AirTrain takes MetroCard, LIRR does not (though I think it should, but that's another story)
3) Where and how will they build a connection from the LIRR tracks to the AirTrain tracks? It would be a construction NIGHTMARE, and the systems aren't 100% compatible.
For the amount of money being suggested as a budget, it would not use a new tunnel but would take over one of the existing NYCT tunnels.
Recent articles also mention a budget inconsistent with building a new tunnel.
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This seems to be a wonderful way to use a comparitivly small amount of money to help a great deal of people and really improve rail transport.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12222003.shtml#Serving
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Amtrak offers these companies millions of dollars annually to ensure passenger trains can meet their schedules. But Mead said two freight railroads in fiscal 2002 passed up a combined $37 million in Amtrak incentive payments, telling auditors it was not worth the cost of altering their operations to accommodate passenger trains.
**COUGH**CSX**COUGH**NORFOLKSOUTHERN
This little exerpt is even worse.
Snow is now President Bushs Treasury secretary.
From 1991 to 1998, CSX spent less per mile of track than any other major railroad, regulatory filings show. Meanwhile, from a loss in 1991 and earnings of only 10 cents a share in 1992, CSX Corp. earnings soared to a record $4.17 a share in 1997, and CSXs stock price nearly quadrupled.
We got pretty good at stretching a dollar, said Tom Schmidt, CSXs vice president for engineering, but that rubber band got stretched a little too thin in the late 1990s. By 2000, time caught up with us. Shortly after the interview, Schmidt got caught up in the management downsizing and retired.
In 1999, Snow passed over Ward for the presidents job at CSX in favor of Ronald J. Conway, then executive vice president of operations at Conrail, parts of which were being merged into CSX after being acquired two years earlier.
Ron Conway recognized the problem immediately and made clear he wanted major investments in track and facilities despite plummeting earnings, Schmidt said. From 1999 to 2000, CSXs expenses per mile fixing tracks, signals and the like shot up from about $18,000 a mile to more than $27,000, according to regulatory filings. CSX said a comparison of the years 1995 to 1998 with 1999 to 2002 showed the number of ties replaced per mile up 31 percent and the rail replaced per mile up 19 percent.
Snow fired Conway just nine months after naming him president in a disagreement over how Conway handled the FRA safety probe and replaced him with Ward, a CSX veteran but Conways programs were preserved. Since 1999, track-caused derailments are down significantly. Main lines also have far fewer slow orders.
No wonder Bush wanted that Snow Asshole in his cabinet. He's a perfect addition to the "Let's Screw 'em Team".
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12222003.shtml#Serving
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Thank GOD somebody saw the light and put a stop to this. I can't wait till the freight is again rolling over to AK to Staten Island. Next Stop, North Shore service.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12222003.shtml#Short
NIMBY is an acronym.
"Feds cater to Nimbys?
By Wes Vernon
Washington Bureau Chief
The November voting scattered about the country during this off-year election may reinforce those who believe that for every Nimby irritant or inconvenience, taxpayers from coast-to-coast should come to the rescue.
In case youve never heard the term, Nimby, its the acronym for people who complain, not in my back yard.
This has nothing to do with building transit infrastructure or roads, generally accepted as necessary to relieve congestion or stimulate commerce for the common good or provide mobility to people in isolated rural areas. Adam Smith himself said infrastructure was an essential government function.
This is about Nimbys in Salt Lake City who dont want to have to look at trains that pass their houses (Yes, grammatically we know should change the y to i and add es to make it plural, but nimby has become so pervasive well leave it that way).
You have the Waybak Machine? Does Mr. Peabody or Sherman know?
Barring that, you forgot to preview your original post, but that's another thread entirely.
WilliamsBurg Bridge: http://nyctmc.org/Xview_still.asp?cam_id=43&server=RS1&address=WBB+Brooklyn+Entrance
QueensBoro Plaza: http://nyctmc.org/Xview_still.asp?cam_id=54&server=RS2&address=Queens+Plaza+N+%40+Queens+Boro+Bridge
AEM7
Some of the blackout dates were this summer, particularly August 14 and August 15.
Mark
Good through mid-January is the "El Greco" tie-in promotion (V143) that provides 20% off tickets to or from NYC if you travel on unreserved Regional trains or weekend Acela/Metroliner trains. However, blackout dates mean you can only use the discount Jan 5-11, 2004.
There's also the 20% discount for travel to/from Philly (V729, listed under "Shocking! The Art and Fashion of Elsa Schiaparelli").
There is no requirement at all that you actually visit either of the museums in these promotions.
Note that Amtrak's reservation system doesn't seem too smart. It looks like you can buy tickets using these discounts even when the city being promoted isn't part of the trip. For example, the site apparently will happily book a Boston-Stamford ticket using V729 even though you're not going anywhere near Philly.
Which is your favorite female voice for the R142/R143 automated announcements (and I'm talking real life, not BVE)?
The "old school" 2 Line (on regular 2 trains)
The "new school" 2 line (on 2 line, using trains from the 5 line)
The "new school" 4, 5, and 6 lines (on all regular 4 & 5 trains, and most 6 trains)
The "old school" 5 line (on 5 line, using trains from the 2 line)
The "old school" 6 line (There are still a few of these)
or
The L line? (need I explain?)
Click here to vote.
Need help? Download this
BTW, this is a very professional setup you have going here. Well done. Now we'll actually get results.
While you are there, you can check out the routes we're building for the Japanese train simulator, Boso View Express (BVE). Go ahead and check out the site!
Disclaimer: This is not my site, I just contribute to it.
"This is a Manhatthan Bound 6 local train, the next stop is 28th Street"
or
"This is a Manhatthan Bound 6 express train, the next stop is Astor Place"
I also like the announcements that the 5 have when a R142 from the 2 pulls in:
"This is a Brookyn Bound 5 express train. The next stop is, 86 street", unlike that dominatrix like voice from regular 5 trains.
Which is your favorite female voice for the R142/R143 automated announcements (and I'm talking real life, not BVE)?
The "old school" 2 Line (on regular 2 trains)
The "new school" 2 line (on 2 line, using trains from the 5 line)
The "new school" 4, 5, and 6 lines (on all regular 4 & 5 trains, and most 6 trains)
The "old school" 5 line (on 5 line, using trains from the 2 line)
The "old school" 6 line (There are still a few of these)
or
The L line? (need I explain?)
Click here to vote.
Need help? Download this
I would suspect there were complaints in the Patchogue area. The first two crossings you show look like potentialy pretty busy areas. I wonder if the local people want to stop traffic from the comemrcial area.
See: http://imsserver.volpe.dot.gov/workgrp/meetings/lir1109.pdf
How would it work though?
So, if there is something wrong with the train's transmitter or antenna, the wayside receiver will not receive any signal and the gates will stay up. :-)
As for me and my world, what ever happened to a little patience...
The train will be gone before too long, and then you can be safely on your way instead of being splattered all over the right of way.
Elias
How does the system distinguish between these two no-signal cases: a train is bearing down at 100 mph with its transmitter/antenna broken or the gate's receiver broken and the train being 20 miles away from the grade crossing? Remember this is CBTC - no track circuits. :-)
I don't think a system like that exists in real life.
Arti
From the looks of things, the street crossing the tracks at grade was 235th Street, which now dead ends on both sides of the tracks right where the platforms are. There are a number of businesses on both sides of the ROW, so one could easily envision a crossing having been located there.
The bridge that carries Douglaston Parkway over the tracks east of the platforms, looks older than 1962.
:0)
*That's the tune that comes up in cartoons whenever hillbillies are depicted. Beaky Buzzard, a Mortimer Snerd caraceture who appears in a few older WB cartoons, often hums it.
Sand Hill does perform a valuable service, however. Except for the grade crossing on Little Neck Parkway, it's the only way out of the small residential neighborhood north of the LIRR and east of the Parkway- roundabout as it is. Local residents have complained that during rush hours, the gates are down so often that emergency vehicles can't get in or out.
A small section of southwest Oceanside is similarly dead-ended by the two crossings on either side of said station.
I think the latter is dumb because the tile mosaics and metal signs refer to it as Myrtle Avenue.
Robert
That's as stupid as renaming 74 St. on the #7 line as "Roosevelt Ave." just because that is the name of the underground E/F/G/R/V station, which I can't imagine they would do.
The cross street is almost always the station name and is always the appropriate name. (Jay St. (A/C/F) in Brooklyn is an exception; its real name should have been Myrtle-Willoughby. York St. (F) is also on Jay St.)
(Prior to the first (refrigerator-tile) Canal St. rehab, the lower level station used to be called "Broadway", not "Canal Street", since the express tracks had turned east already heading for the bridge and are under Canal St. and Canal is not the cross street, Broadway is.)
(When the old Myrtle Ave. el ran all the way through to Bridge Street, its station above the J line was called (correctly) Broadway; later on a smaller "Myrtle Ave." sign was added underneath to match the J station name. This used to be visible from the J platform way after service to Bridge St. ended; maybe it still is.)
I remember those signs well from when I first used to ride the line around 1984. You can see it here in a great photo from Harry Beck's site. (Click here for more photos of the Myrtle El in it's final days).
This used to be visible from the J platform way after service to Bridge St. ended; maybe it still is.)
The sign (and station) survived into the late 80's. Unfortunatly, around 1990 or 1991, they built a signal room or something in it's place, and the old station was demolished. See here in a photo I took in June of this year:
Also the Ronkonkoma Schedule for Martin Luther King Day is now on the schedule racks @ Jamaica! I was the 1st person who took a copy of it after a LIRR Worker placed them into the schedule rack
Make The JFK Connection
Take the A Train to Air Train at the Howard Beach/JFK Stop.
This is different from the one first reported that was on E-Bay witch reads "Connection to the world" in white Print on a Black backround.
I am going to look for a varaction of the new one to see of they make one saying, "Take the J or E train to Suffen Blvd Stop." or one for the "LIRR to Jamica Station."
Anyone have extras of the first one and needs the new one, E-Mail me so we came trade them.
Robert
Robert
There is no booth selling cards at Jamaica. Also the Station Agent & MVM in the subway station are only selling the "Safety" MCs.
At Howard Beach there is a Station Agent right next to the Air Train Information Booth, but again he had Safety MCs.
I did pick up several brochures that incl. a map.
I too am interested in getting the other cards & have lots of other cards to trade.
Personally I think there is additional stock left in the warehouse (it's unreasonable to believe that they would make such a short run of MCs ... just enough for Opening Day give-aways), however it's been so long since I bought MCs (for QSC) that they wouldn't remember who I am or talk to me if I called.
For those technically inclined enough to know about IRC, do you think a SubTalk IRC channel would be nice?
For those who don't know what IRC is, it stands for Internet Relay Chat. I kinda think that a realtime subway discussion would be cool.
Julian
P.S. Check out irchelp.org. It's a nice place to learn about IRC if you are an IRC newbie.
IM BOARshevik for more info.
How'd they manage to do that? Did they accelerate quicker or something?
Lets see the damned redbirds do this!
Click
You uphold a badly outdated announcement system as a virtue?!
I have yet to hear an automated announcement recognize this fact, even though most of the announcement programs in use (except on the 2) postdate the service change. I'm not familiar with the newest 6 program, so it might be correct, but, quite frankly, I doubt it.
Quite strange.
Finally, you didn't mention that evenings, after the <Q> stopped running, the W would end at 57th, skipping 49th.
The N runs local in Brooklyn in both directions briefly in the early part of the morning rush, as R layups are vacating the express track south of 36th. It's officially scheduled to run express-on-the-local, but in fact it makes local stops. Nights and weekends it indeed does run express-on-the-local from 36th to 59th, southbound only.
The late night R shuttle was also extended to Pacific, via express -- the only express run the R is ever scheduled to make.
I was nitpicking, but I'm not complaining about your counter nitpick. It's good info.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Never mind that Redbirds have no electronic strip maps to go out of service; they have rollsigns that can be changed to reflect the actual service pattern.
From City Hall loop up current Lexington Ave local tracks (Original Brooklyn Bridge station extends about 100 feet south of current BB/CH station, no north entrance constructed.) Position of local stations from Canal to Astor are same, no platform extensions. The up along Track #4 (Track #1 was southbound) to Times Square. Then leaving TS up along local tracks of current West side IRT to 145th st where it ends there.
Don't forget to add Worth St, 18th st and 91st st to your BVE plans.
In the book, it talks about making an 8-car train.
Look here, under the section, Switching.
The original route, as it was in service between October and November 1904 included these stations:
145 St (1)
137 St (1)
125 St (1)*
116 St (1)
110 St (1)
96 St (1)(2)(3)
91 St **
86 St (1)
79 St (1)
72 St (1)(2)(3)
66 St (1)
Columbus Circle (1)
50 St (1)
Times Square (S)***
Grand Central (S)
33 St (6)
28 St (6)
23 St (6)
18 St **
14 St (4)(5)(6)
Astor Pl (6)
Bleecker St (6)
Spring St (6)
Canal St (6)
Worth St **
Brooklyn Bridge (4)(5)(6)
City Hall **
*: When this station opened, it was known as Manhattan Street
**: Station Closed
***: Originally a local-only station
Note that 96th St, 14th St, and Brooklyn Bridge have additional "wall" platforms in addition to the "island" platforms currently used.
Also note that a line along the Lenox Avenue line was being built at this time, and the tracks widen out south of 103rd Street for the connection for this line. Also, an extension to 157th Street opened soon after the original section opened.
You can find some resources for this route in the book, The New York City Subway: Its Construction and Equipment, available here.
Well, then you and he might be interested in having a look at this:
http://hdl.loc.gov/loc.mbrsmi/lcmp002.20761
It's an movie of a trip up part of the original IRT, shot in 1905. I don't know if it's popped up here before (although I suspect it has), but it's something that anyone interested in the early days should have a look at.
Mark
"The ride begins at 14th Street (Union Square) following the route of today's east side IRT, and ends at the old Grand Central Station, built by Cornelius Vanderbuilt in 1869. The Grand Central Station in use today was not completed until 1913."
Times Square was a local station, entirely on a curve, along 42nd Street turning towards Broadway. Grand Central was a regular express station, entirely straight and level, then the sharp curve onto Park Avenue a few (about 2) carlengths east of the platform.
Can't wait to see this one. Good luck, Jeff.
You are absolutely right. There's a hell of a lot of info about it in the Dual Contracts section of this site.
http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/abandoned/grandcentral.html
Bad news though... DOT was there with a crew of 15-20 guys pouring concrete over the tracks on Connover St.
It is all over.
-Harry
(And Yes, I know the site has some issues right now, it will be resolved by the end of the week.
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
Indeed... I also recall a rather high plywood fence around the building.
SHHH! Isn't that supposed to be Top Secret? ;)
Deaks760's Photo Albums
Some are of trains taken in service whilst some are taken at the Crewe Works Open Weekend, similar I believe to the MNRR Croton-Harmon Open House.
If that links hasn't worked properly, just copy and paste the following:
http://community.webshots.com/user/deaks760
Mark
Wow, it's like I'm in timewarp. Since when did they paint these things back to Rail Blue? Especially with the nondescript, small BR double arrow.
47816 at Birmingham New Street -- 47816 seen at Birmingham still carrying 'First' fleetnames. On VT diversionary work.
And this! Thing looks weird without the First Great Western stripes. Whatever happened to their Night Rail service? Did they go to class 57 finally? Almost looks like the GWR loco "I K BRUNEL" with its green. (I think that loco was scrapped at Wigan Component Recovery Centre a few years back). REPAINT!!! REPAINT!!!
AEM7
One into XP64 light blue
One into British Railways two-tone green
One into all-over blue (as seen)
One into late-80s InterCity
One into early-80s BR 'large-logo'
I think there was one more, but I can't remember. About the same time one was painted like a police car (!) to highlight trespass and vandalism on the railway.....
As for the ex-FGW loco. When they started putting their new Class 180 DMUs into service the requirement for Class 47s dropped so some were returned to their leasing company. Presumably they had not got round to repainting this one (and there is another just like it, too). I believe that the first of their Class 57s have been delivered a few weeks ago so more 47s will be returned soon.
Finally, I think that Isambard Kingdon Brunel (the loco, not the man) is sitting at Wigan CRDC in a part-canibalised state, but it has not yet been scrapped. Apparently efforts are being made to preserve it.
I love the shots on the South Western. It's definitely the best railway in South London...
You've got some interesting bus pictures there (what were you doing in Brum without telling me?!?). You seem to like the angle on the buses turning out of the Old Sq into Corp St. The picture of a Lynx on the 35E really reminds me of home! (Although I could scarcely recognise the 104 outside the Post & Mail Bldg without all the concrete bus shelters in the background...)
Incidentally - do you prefer the current TWM livery (the red, white & blue) or the previous one (blue and silver) better? I personally like the blue and cream they were before that, but I think there are only a couple of buses left in those colours.
Oh and I like the shots of the London Routemasters!!!
I am guilty too for missing out.
Fred can you please reply to this post to let us know you are OK?
I am working in San Jose today (i live outside SF). I thought i was getting sick...i looked up and saw the light fixtures moving....then saw and could feel that it was the building moving. It went on for about a minute or so.
VERY freaky experience...i have felt one other one since I have been out here (felt like a big truck rumbling by on a nearby expressway, except i don't live near one)
I have inquired with a few people north of me(towards SF) (closer to where i live) and haven't heard back from anyone who felt it...so far so good.
thanks
Jeremy
And, please, before I forget, may I wish all my Jewish buddies on Subtalk a very happy Hannukuh. Enjoy your holiday my friends.
I asked the question before but never really got an answer. Can you take a bicycle on board the Air Train? How about a folding bike?
Mark
As far as your question: "Are there good plceas (places) to bike in that area as well?" I wouldn't advise it. You'd have to talk to someone who actually takes their bike to/from JFK. I haven't been to JFK much lately. But my impression is the roads are very crowded. Alot of cars and taxis and the like doing the stop and go. Maybe if you stay away from the terminals you could avoid traffic. But it's the terminals where people would take their bikes.
Mark
The ankle biters will have a ball for about one hour, after which point they'll be whining constantly about being bored.
In what's supposed to be the highest cost of living city in the country(or top 5), where the cigerettes are twice normal(8 bucks?) and beer is up there, $5 bucks for a train shuttling out of towners or people goign out of town doesn't seem all that high to me.
How much faster is Airtrain compared to everything else?
CG
Also 69th street is a "must exit" only station.
But they are not in New York.
Nobody? What if you live in Harrison and want to get NJTransit or Amtrak at Newark Penn? Or if you work in downtown Newark?
I believe that for this reason, 18th Street was the first station to get modern HEETs in 1997. I am not completely sure of this.
Oddly, the south (secondary) entrance to Rector IRT is open full-time on the southbound side but only part-time on the northbound side.
I will confirm the south side of Rector St after lunchtime.
The Manhattan store of Essex at Coney Deil is just upstairs from the entrance.
242nd St/VCP - I am not sure if it is only the west side of the station or both sides.
--Mark
I was waiting for the E train at West 4th and saw on the express track going northbound R36s with 2 at each end and then a work train I think it was number was ep02(dont know car type).. However, the redbirds still had the corona stickers (I think the numbers were 9336,9337,9338 and prob 9339 not sure...)Aren't the work trains painted yellow with stipes? Too sad it wasn't for service =)
Took that just to ride the airtrain, and I was the only one without any luggage =).. It was a pretty decent and fast train ride... however, I didn't like the paying to leave part, they should have people pay at the terminals to get on instead.. and the "turnstiles" are pretty cheesy. Overall I think it was a waste of money... should have built the Rockaway line or have some pivot point to serve both airports.. well that's just my thoughts/dreams...!
Well just thought I wanted to share to the airtrain experience!
Robert
No, it isn't
In any case, a trainload of shook up people, and, if she died, a really messed up T/O. Short of antidepressants for everyone, I look forward to a century when we take platform barriers for granted.
Farther North (less light, colder temp --> more time indoors) higher suidcide vs murder
Farther South (more light, higher temp --> more time outdoors) higher murder vs suidcide rate.
Nope on two. Aboriginal societies (if David Pinker in "The Blank Slate" is right) are WAY more homicidal than we are, and they happen to be more southerly ("Guns, Germs and Steel"), so, yeah, more time outdoors correlates with more murder, but I don't think it's cause-and-effect. But the lack of sunlight and shorter days DOES lead to certain kinds of depression, and they do use big sunlamps to try to get people past seasonal-affective depression.
Mike, if I weren't posting this to an all-Yankee board, I would take real issues with that. The South is not an aboriginal or disorganized society. It's just a different way of life. Not good or bad. Just different. And it was Steven Pinker that wrote "The Blank Slate", he recently quit from MIT to join Harvard down the road. Not everyone in cognitive psychology agrees with his theories.
AEM7
I hear ya. Even without people who intentionally try to wind up as 12-9's, it seems to be nerve-wracking enough. People who don't understand the physics of the situation lean over the edge of the platform as the train is coming in to the station, and pull back just in time to avoid being struck by the train. And some low-lifes think it is fun to kick the side of the lead car really hard as it passes them, to try to fool the T/O into thinking he struck them.
And then there are employees on the tracks who should know better. Recently, on a train heading downtown in Manhattan late at night (that should be vague enough to avoid any disciplinary issues), the guy who is supposed to be protecting the track is leaning against the wall about 6 feet to the left of the track (there's a wide space with no tracks at this particular spot) with his two orange lanterns behind him. About 1200 feet away, there's a work gang on the track we're on. They all cleared the track when the train sounded its horn, but that was the only warning they got. Sheesh...
I'm confused.
There was much more I wanted to upload but apparently they won't let me because I would be exceeding some quota (hint that I need to find another place for storage of files online) so if you want the rest of the best, you're going to have to email me and I'll send you the zip files.
Hope you enjoy.
IIRC, the STRIPE is an indication of the HOME YARD of that car...
It does NOT stand to indicate a particular cartype..
vcp has RED
pelham has YELLOW
corona has PURPLE
livonia has DARK BLUE
woodlawn has ORANGE
So, if a r62 from WOODLAWN wears ORANGE, then it -IS- an r62..
But once that jiffy gets xferred to CORONA, ORANGE becomes PURPLE.
So ORANGE doesn't necessarily totally sporadically cosmetically make it an R62.
My method of indication would have been useless a few years ago when the MLs were still around.
I would have pointed out cosmetic differences, but these are too acute to spot without a trained eye.
But yes, the car numbers could be used as well.
wayne
Where in the hell did I get that number from?
The 4 has been sending its R-62's to the 3. The stickers have remained orange. All of the R-62's in service on the 3 and 4 have orange stickers. It appears that the blue stickers are soon to be a memory.
R-142a: 1 piece door frame.
Note how the front face is made of two pieces. See how the top of the door frame under the "4" is separate from the rest of the frame?
R142A...
The same front face is one continuous piece. The top of the door frame is continuous throughout.
You'll never mistake one for the other ever again. :-)
I'm no photographer, but can record some damn good subway sounds! =p
Finally, R142s and R142as make different sounds... The R142s make the violin sounds, while the R142as make the futuristic electronic whine. (It doesn't have an official designation yet)
In the early 90's, all of the R-62's were unitized into five-car sets with transverse cabs at either end. No R-62's have railfan windows, unless you don't mind peering through the small window into the cab.
In the late 90's, most but not all of the R-62A's were unitized into five-car sets. Some were left as singles, for the shuttle and to accomodate 9-car trains on the 3. Most of the singles kept their railfan windows. The 3 now runs 10-car trains, so it gave up most of its R-62A's for the 7 (which runs 11-car trains) and got R-62's in their stead.
There are still a few (three?) trains of R-62A's running on the 3, with railfan windows. At some point they will be swapped with the handful of R-62's still running on the 4.
Oh wait...................
If not, maybe the TA is removing some of the full-width cabs?
This is a R62.
An online guide should be made to document such differences. ;)
Does anyone know anything about this, and whether it includes Chicago's rapid transit as well?
That's the address
http://www.msichicago.org/exhibit/great_train_story/index.html
the layout cost $1 million dollars to build
The other highlight of the museum, for me, was the human body slices. I finally understood why so many people have bad backs. The muscles of the arms and legs are massive, those of the back are these thin little things. No wonder they object to doing all the work.
Back muscles actually are very strong, or at least have the capability of becoming very strong if exercised properly. Not only are strong back muscles good protection against injury, but in the case of the lats you can get, with enough work, that gorilla look where your arms bulge out from your sides. Very cool.
That must be some layout. The pictures just whet your appetite to want to see the whole thing in person.
Sounds like a scary layout.
Was that because of the popularity of the Titanic exhibit?
This is what I Live For...
Thanks for the schedule - it was the one piece of running time I was missing.
Closer to the end of the platform where the entrance mezzanine is.
At one time in the past their was a control in the major station manager kiosk that controlled the location where a train would birth at a platform. There were three selection available for each tracks short, normal (center) or long.
John
Mark
Yes sir.
What I believe WMATA has done is hard wire the short long normal feature at the stations where it is applicable.
For those that dont know what those white boxes (Marker Coil) that you see between the tracks are for, they are part of the train control system that tells the train where it is in relationship to the center of the platform. The pick up antenna is between first and second car of a train. There are no more then 14 Marker Coils per track, 7 for each direction of travel. They are located at 2700 (822.96m), 1200 (365.76m) 484 (147.52m) and 167 (50.9m) from center of the platform. Some are fixed frequency and some are variable frequency. The fixed frequency convey distance and grade information, the variable frequency convey distance for skip, short, long or normal stop.
I hope everybody has been listening as their will be a quiz.
John
Apparently, this system is not foolproof, either. The transponders only transmits distance, and the train does a braking curve calculation and decides for itself what speed to go at. So this is totally different from a cab signal system where the transponders or track circuits tell the train what speed to go at, depending on the frequency. The braking curves are pre-determined on a 1 to 8 scale by trainmen, which is entered at the beginning of the trip.
This 'feature' is designed to allow the trainmen to turn on 'maximum braking' during slippery conditions, but since the braking curve is not re-calibrated en-route, it may be set inappropriately by the end of a trip. The system was implicated in the Shady Grove accident in 1991(?) where the train did not start braking until it came into the platform; it was snowing at the time and the system defaulted to a braking curve of 1 (least braking) after several station over-shoots that had resulted in the system having to be reset. The dispatcher apparently did not allow the trainman to manualize the control.
I think this topic has been discussed before here:
Others can probably provide more details, but the essence of the DC accident was this: while operating on an outdoor portion of the line, under extremely severe weather conditions, a motorman requested permission to take the train under direct control because he was concerned about sliding on the icy rail. The motorman made this request at least twice; it is not clear whether or not he was given permission after the second request (he was not after the first), but in any event he did not take control of the train and as a consequence slid past his designated stopping point at the end of the line - whether it was into a bumping block or another train I don't recall.
From what I understand, the head of rail operations at the time of the WMATA accident, Fady Bassily, was a real tyrant and refused to take the trains off of automatic control. He had zero friends at the agency and needless to say is no longer with the agency and the last I heard, was working in Greece.
The ATO was never turned off. The debate is over whether or not he received permission to turn it off. Critics have said no; WMATA's official position was that he was issued permission but did not act upon it, perhaps because he did not receive the transmission. He could have switched it off himself in the cab, but doing so without permission would have resulted in disciplinary action, hence the speculation that he did not receive the transmission. There was also speculation that he may have experienced some medical problems immediately prior to the accident which prevented him from leaving the cab - as in he may have incapacitated from a heart attack. This was never proven or disproven, IIRC; logically, given the speed of the impact, he should have been able to exit the cab in plenty of time to avoid serious injury, and it logically follows that since he didn't, he couldn't.
AEM7
The report also has a number of photos of the train telescoping in to parked train in the tail track, as well as other charts and tables detailing the information on the conditions at the time of the wreck.
John
I made a video of my top 50 photos, a slideshow with music.
Scroll to the bottom of the page!
Enjoy!
Scroll to the bottom of the page
Each one is about 12MB, so choose the one that your computer can play.
Enjoy!
I have a theory about the "! Express Train" pic (#34). It's a combination of the LED sign and the camera, I think.
Something about the refresh rate of the LED sign. It's goes alon the same theory as seeing a shot of a computer screen on TV.
Here's another one that demostrates this effect.
Also note the article mentioning other women driving their SUV"s into trains.
And before anybody says, "But why don't you blame the train? waaaaa". If you know me, then you'd know I dont' believe in the word accident, plus I blame everyone for everything(I'd make a good trooper).
Dart light rail story
A woman was in critical condition Monday after a Sunday accident in which she drove through a flashing warning gate and slammed into a DART light-rail train. Her daughter was killed.
Araceli Perez, 28, was in a coma at Parkland Health and Hospital System, police said.
A witness to the 1 p.m. crash said it appeared that the woman didn't try to stop her Chevrolet Blazer until just before she hit the Blue Line train at the Plano Road crossing, just north of Miller Road in far northeast Dallas. She was traveling south in the left lane of Plano Road.
"She broke through the arm and hit right into the train," said John Moore, 18, of Richardson. "It dragged her until she hit a pole and stopped. A guy stopped there said he heard her slam on her brakes right before she hit."
According to a police report, Ms. Perez appeared to be looking over her right shoulder and reaching toward 5-year-old Yasmine Perez, who was standing on the back seat, when she crashed through the crossing arm. Yasmine was ejected from a passenger side window and killed at the scene, the report says.
Two of six passengers on the train also were hurt.
-----------------------
Yea, she needs to have been driving a tank when she's facing the wrong way!
According to a police report, Ms. Perez appeared to be looking over her right shoulder and reaching toward 5-year-old Yasmine Perez, who was standing on the back seat, when she crashed through the crossing arm. Yasmine was ejected from a passenger side window and killed at the scene, the report says.
Acident, hell. The child was not seat-belted into her seat, which either means Mom didn't buckle her in or never taught her to stay in the seatbelt. Instead of pulling over to rectify the situation, Mom continued driving, while looking at some place other than the road ahead of her, which resulted in her not seeing an active crossing gate and a train.
I can't come up with any reason to pity Mom, since everthing that happened was a direct result of her own stupidity. In an ideal world, should Mom recover, she would have her license revoked, be issued a small pile of traffic tickets, and be brought up on charges of assault with a deadly weapon and whichever level of manslaughter/murder fits the case under Texas law. In our present-day world, Mom will recover and no charges of any kind will be pressed, because, after all, 'hasn't she suffered enough?'.
Mark
And so how is this SUV any different from any other car that gets wrecked. STOOPIT people drive little cars too, and they are JUST AS DEAD!
The operation of a car, or any motor vehicle, requires your full time attention. She probly wasn't doing 75 mph but inattention at speed is the same as driving into a brick wall.
Either give the road your undivded attention, or ossifer Darwin will nail your ass.
Elias
In theory, a good transit system should also mean that the authorities can be freer to revoke driver's licenses, since people don't have to drive in order to work. Sadly the reality in Philly is that traffic law is almost completely unenforced and even city a council member drove unlicensed for 25 years.
But I still have the option of taking myself out of the traffic and increasing my life expectancy.
Mark
Oh yes, five-year-old kids obey your every word.
Mom will recover and no charges of any kind will be pressed, because, after all, 'hasn't she suffered enough?'.
Yes.
She'll have to live with that for the rest of her life.
The ironic part is that she will never accept the blame for killing her own daughter, instead she will go on a huge rampage of campaigning to get the train tracks and light rail removed. If we have a few more accidents like this, the legislature may listen.
All the more reason to give those people penalty and show them that under the eyes of the law, they are wrong.
If she had run a stoplight, and rammed her SUV high bumper through the window of a compact car killing someone else's car, however, everyone would have a reason to be outraged.
Is there a echo in here.
I thought that was my line?
: ) Elias
Oh yes, five-year-old kids obey your every word.
And when they don't listen to something like this, you PULL THE CAR OVER.
No, five year old kids don't obey my every word. Nonetheless, my daughter always got buckled into her seat when she was five, and she stayed there. Now, at the age of ten, she buckles herself in and makes sure that her friends have buckled up, because she knows I won't go anywhere until everyone is buckled (pisses off Grandma, but even she listens).
If someone has no control over their five-year-old kids in safety situations, that's their problem; they just have to be prepared to live with the consequences.
Here in North Dakota we have a safty poster that makes me cry every time I see it or even think of it. It reads:
"She crys everytime we put her in the car seat."
The next picture shows a tombstone and the caption reads:
"She isn't crying anymore."
And just last year at about this time I was holding a dead infant in my arms. She was not buckled in either. While there was considerable damage to that car (It had been hit by a tractor trailer rig on the interstate... auto driver's fault 100%) The vacant infant seat was intact and in an undamaged area of the car.
And yes, some lawyers did subpena our records on that one.
Elias
*"In our present-day world, Mom will recover and no charges of any kind will be pressed, because, after all, 'hasn't she suffered enough?'."*
We're talking about Texas, which, i'm confident like Bush's younger brothers state, doesn't do that much pity. We're talking about vehicular homicide of a younger minor from gross negligence. That's a heavy sentence(which has been handed down before).
I hope I see the follow up to see how many years it is in texas(I think it's in the ballpark of 10-15 in FL, but I have trouble remembering that good stuff).
The woman consciously chose to not secure her daughter properly AND consciously chose to drive through a lowered crossing arm. This was an accident only on DART's part; it was clearly a deliberate on her part.
Perhaps she chose not to secure her daughter properly; perhaps, despite her best efforts and intentions, her daughter managed to get out of the car seat/seat belt. (Some states require car seats for children up to age six; I don't know the law in Texas. I got yelled at by my daughter for allowing my six year old grandson to ride in the front seat when I was visiting last March, even though the law in Arizona doesn't require a car seat at that age and my rental car didn't have one.) And the evidence points to her having applied the brakes before going through the gate, so she obviously didn't choose to hit the train. She did exercise incredibly poor judgment by not pulling over safely and re-securing her daughter, and that mistake ultimately caused the accident and the loss of her daughter's life. I'm certainly not defending the mother's actions, but IMHO you are being entirely too judgmental.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
And that is another thing. I almost NEVER touch my brake during city driving. My car is under my control, I watch were I am going, and I pay attention to the traffic around me. I am aware of what is 100 - 200 feet ahead of my car: I watch traffic ahead to see what people are going to do or what they might or could do. If the crossing gates are down, I'll start to slow my car as much as 1000 feet away. Ain't going to go anywhere any faster by rushing up to the gate. For red lights I'll let my car drift towards a stop from as far as 500 feet away: Drivers behind me might not appreciate it, but I usually arrive at the light when it turns green anyway. I ain't lost nothing by driving carefully.
Elias
This what driving in Philly is all about, let me tell you, and this is why I take the subway!
Mark
I'm just glad I don't live where I have to use the Schuylkill Parking Lot...I mean...Expressway on a regular basis.
Mark
I don't either, but that's because I drive a stick shift... I downshift instead, or dump the clutch if I've got enough room. The problem with trying to maintain a long distance in which to coast, though, is that the drivers behind will sometimes be so impatient that they will floor it, pass, and then cut back in, forcing me to stop even more quickly, and if they decide to do that I'm not in a position to accelerate quickly enough to keep them from doing it (my old truck has about 479,000 miles on it now, and even with the 200 c.i.d. 6 cyl. it never did have a lot of pep).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Jeff, you need to buy an SUV. or a HUMMER. Then you wouldn't be so anal about your brakelights
Well, when I'm in New Jersey, they aren't paying attention (so what difference does it make anyway), and when I'm down home in North Carolina they know exactly where I'm going anyhow :-) I never used a turn signal until I came north (almost eight years ago now!)... never needed them in North Carolina. Not that anyone pays attention to them up in NJ anyway, but... once in a while someone might look at it, realize that I'm turning into my driveway, and not try to pass me.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
: )-
BASIC RULES FOR DRIVING IN NEW YORK
1. Turn signals will give away your next move. A real New York driver never uses them.
2. Under no circumstance should you leave a safe distance between you and the car in front of you, or the space will be filled in by somebody else, putting you in an even more dangerous situation.
3. The faster you drive through a red light, the smaller the chance you have of getting hit.
4. Never, ever come to a complete stop at a stop sign. No one expects it and it will result in you being rear-ended.
5. Never get in the way of an older car that needs extensive bodywork. New York is a no-fault insurance state and the other guy doesn't have anything to lose.
6. Braking is to be done as hard and late as possible to ensure that your ABS kicks in, giving a nice, relaxing foot massage as the brake pedal pulsates. For those of you without ABS, it's a chance to stretch your
legs.
7. Never pass on the left when you can pass on the right. It's a good way to scare people entering the highway.
8. Speed limits are arbitrary figures, given only as a suggestion and are apparently not enforceable in New York during rush hour.
9. Just because you're in the left lane and have no room to speed up or move over doesn't mean that a New York driver flashing his high beams behind you doesn't think he can go faster in your spot.
10. Always slow down and rubberneck when you see an accident or even someone changing a tire.
11. Learn to swerve abruptly. New York is the home of the high-speed slalom driving thanks to the State Highway Department, which puts potholes in key locations to test drivers' reflexes and keep them on their toes.
12. It is traditional in New York to honk your horn at cars that don't move the instant the light turns green.
13. Remember that the goal of every New York driver is to get there first by whatever means necessary.
14. In the New York area, 'flipping someone the bird' is considered a polite New York salute. This gesture should always be returned.
His current post concerns an accident (or a stupid broad driver) where an SUV was driven through a crossing gate into the path of a DART LRV.
DART is in Dallas, and has been operating for several years.
Houston got rid of streetcars in the 1930's, so nobody remembers rail transit in the street.
now i'm wondering since you brought that up.
Anyway, article today talks about changes in the system. Metro trains will now feature louder horns and strobe lights(I hope the same ones school buses use).
No it doesn't, you clearly don't have a statistical sample.
And cell phones are a dangerous distraction as well. They emit alot of EMF too, which aint too good either. Probably accounts for why most heavy cell phone users dont seem to have many active brain cells left.
I thought you couldn't afford a cell phone.
And boy, today's was a DOOOOZZZYYY. I dont' think it'd be possible to articulate into text. But then again, I dont' think it's invincibility, I think it's stupidity.
I drive a Ford Explorer, and never felt invincible in it. Of course, an Explorer is a medium to small sized SUV, not like the boats that Lincoln Navigators or those BMW things are.
Those are not boats... Those are AIRCRAFT CARRIERS!
---Sir Ronald of McDonald
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
I count 2.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
No, you just rested MY case. Thanks :)
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
I guess everyone made it on to the #2 Flatbush av., that pulled in.
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Yes, what ARE we looking at?
Chuck Greene
I have a mac, and I can play it.
Get it!
No offense, but I guess you had to be there. Hilarious must be a relative term.
On the other hand, I enjoyed the Edison clip.
I expected better from you, Brian.
Incognito
What did you expect, Jackie Mason?
Go download the new version, it fixes the problem.
Chuck Greene
--Mark
Merry Xmas!
Chuck Greene
Thanks, again, Brain.
Chuck Greene
My mom watched it with me and she thought it was mean. Goes to show that a sense of humor changes with generation.
We will then make all deliberate speed to 11th St where we will ride the MFL to 30th where we will transfer to a Rt 36 Trolley. It is imperitive that we make the 11:17 R1/2 train at Eastwick.
Chuck Greene
West Market East is a ghost town. The only time to use it is for luch purposes as it is just down the steps from Reading terminal.
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
Now THAT'S a fan!!!
Chuck Greene
http://hometown.aol.com/isaacshome/
Jersey Mike doesn't like 90%, but since you got us a cab ride on the Broad Street Subway, I think you have some clout. If that doesn't work, we'll administer an ACS organic chemistry exam to weed out the excess participants.
Hope you come with us!
Chuck Greene
I went there after we split up to get a marzipan pig.
[I hate this guy! I'm slapping myself in the head! HeHe.] Oh well, like the Mets keep saying, there's always next year.
Anyway, I'm taking the R3 up to Woodbourne in awhile in the hopes of seeing some CSX freight action. Then it's down to Jenkintown or Temple Univ station to catch the rush hour fleet. Who knows, maybe we'll cross paths yet.
I'll put up a half trip report soon. Sorry you missed us.
Well, this saturday Mr. Lincoln will be wearing PANTS!
In a bet with me today, Lincoln wagered that if I make up the time I'd lost while driving my bus today, he's wear pants to the Saturday M.O.D. trip. Well I was 10 minutes late when the bet was made and was 3 minutes early when the bet timer was up!
So for those of you who know Mr. Lincoln, this will be your rare opportunity to see this nutcase in Pants and not Khaki Shorts!
Regards,
T.L.
Percentage?
Especially the pair he wore on the last MOD trip. I hear he hasn't washed them yet; especially nasty considering it's his only pair :(.
;-)
Bar's open on this end. May all your trips be on time!
Imagine wearing a tank-top with no coat at Rockaway Park lunch stop!
Regards,
Jimmy
They were built between 1962 and 1965
They are to be replaced by some order of M-7's
The other cars are M-1's and M-3's. Both Budd Built.
The M-1's date from between 1968 and 1972 and the M-3's date from 1982-1983
It did not control the TBTA
It did not control the NYCTA
It did control the LIRR
I do not know if subsidies of NYC had already begun.
David
MN got their M-1As a bit later. I believe some of those units (or M-1s?) were actualy built by GE, though they have Budd plates on them.
The M-2s WERE built by GE and have GE plates. I freaked the first time I saw that on one...
They're all GE equipped.
And it appears I am correct according to 49 FCR 229.125
(d) Effective December 31, 1997, each lead locomotive operated at a
speed greater than 20 miles per hour over one or more public highway-
rail crossings shall be equipped with operative auxiliary lights, in
addition to the headlight required by paragraph (a) or (b) of this
section.
Sacramento, CA: spade of lawsuits directed at amusement parks have been making their way through the California court system prompted by to a rash of injuries and deaths related to their roller coaster rides. Now, in what could be a landmark decision, the California Supreme Court has taken up a case that will force it to decide if amusement parks roller coaster operations should count as "common carriers" instead of entertainment providers. In addition to forcing the parks to raise the level of safety from reasonable care to utmost care, this decision could determine once and for all the touchy subject if Roller Coasters are ON TOPIC discussion for Subtalk.
While the fact that most coasters could be rendered seriously "less fun", the effect the ruling might have on Subtalk is what is really on the forefront of everyone's mind. Weather or not coasters are just a pointless amusement or a valid form of rail transit has prompted more railfans to take hardline stands than did the Sea Beach and R142's combined. One thing is clear. No matter what the outcome this issue will be a sore one on Subtalk for years to come.
Now it's about time to build rollercoasters as a transportation medium with more than one station each.
Like the original switchback railway in Coney Island (but more fun).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Seriouly, I had intended to get up to the City with my wife this past Monday, but her brother was having a knee replacement so she wanted to be home to get the call from his wife that all had gone well (figured we'd be underground without cell phone reception just when Judy would call... she was right, we would have been) so we didn't go. Maybe this Sunday, but not for the MOD trip; she has other ideas about where we'll be going (the Judaica shop at the Jewish Museum is high on her agenda). But if she changes her plans and goes to North Carolina on Saturday, instead of waiting until Monday...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
And for SubTalk ... complain that all the money is being spent on the suburban roller coasters.
First they raised the price.
Then they cut the maximum speed to 3 mph on bad sections of track.
Then they ended the run in the middle of the roller coaster, and gave you a transfer to a bus to return you to the ticket booth.
Then they discontinued the bus.
Then they changed the Thunderbolt to a shuttle between the starting point and the top of the first rise, then backed down again.
Then they dropped you off at the top of the first rise and you had to walk back.
Then they discontined the First Rise Shuttle "temporarily."
The rest is history.
--Mark
You all missed the point. If the parks have to raise the level of safety, it means they will have to take out more insurance. A LOT MORE! I fully expect to see alot of roller coasters go out of business because of this ruling.
Better get your last ride on the Cyclone. One more death and they may have to close it down.
Peace,
ANDEE
It would also provide opportunity for joint service with Metro-North (a la the Port Jervis and Pascack Valley lines) to serve west of Hudson communities in New York (like Nyack, Haverstraw, Highland Mills/West Point, Cornwall, Newburgh, Marlboro, Highland, and possibly even Kingston).
Has anyone heard if NJ Transit will built the West Shore or the Northern Branch LRT first
The Northern Branch LRT is being pushed for first because of it being cheaper and having less opposition from the freight railroads.
If the Northern Branch is built first, does this mean that the West Shore line will be scrap in favor of the Northern Branch LRT
Not necessarily, since they serve different areas, plus the West Shore line has the potential of serving the eastern half of Rockland County. However, it certainly would be done far later than a Northern Branch LRT line.
Would you mind if you just reply to one of your earlier threads instead of asking the same questions over and over in a new thread? Not to mention that once you get the answers, could you please not make it seem that you either did not read said answers or forgot them once you read them at a prior date? Thanks much…
I say this because day after day on the (1) train, I hear...
"numberoneskipstop,dyckmannextstandclear" played at a volume that a rabbit would have trouble hearning.
On the (A) train, (R32s in particular), I hear
"ONE TWO FIVE STREET! (crackle crackle crackle) B,C,D TRAINS (crackle crackle crackle) 'CROSS THE PLATFORM! (screeeech!) BROOKLYN BOUND A, (EEEEEEEEE) STAND CLEAR!"
And this is being a little finicky, but aren't CRs supposed to announce the station while the train is pulling in?
"This is... 125th Street. Transfer to the B,C, and D trains across the platform."
(Train slows down, doors open)
"This is a Brooklyn bound (A) Express train. The next stop is... 59th Street."
(Pause if busy station to let people on the train)
"Stand clear of the closing doors, please."
(Doors close, train pulls away)
-Julian
No. According to current policies, all routine C/R announcements are to be made while the doors are open and the train is stopped in a station. Of course, Transit breaks its own policies with the automated announcements on the 142/143, which announce the current stop and transfers while the train is still moving.
robert
The C/R I had on the (7) this afternoon did the announcements this way. It was enjoyable to listen to.
Today on the (A) line, I listened to announcements on an R44 that sounded like this:
"Mrrmf transmrrmrf B, C, D, mrrffrrrmfff Brooklmrrrff" etc...
The CR seemed to be announcing all the right things over a bad PA system.
As for the bad announcements it's not alway the C/R fault, the P/A system could not be working right. It seems to me that your saying the C/R can't do there jobs right witch is not the truth in most cases. There are some who don't do there jobs the right way, but most of them do.
Robert
Peace,
ANDEE
"I'm feeling just a little bit more anxiety about the T," Linda Angus said. "You worry about them doing the gas thing. We're walking everywhere."
Mr. Angus, a retired truck driver, added: "It's not free and easy and relaxed like it used to be. Something's going to happen sometime. You're just not sure where or when."
Last night I was on aa R68a Q that ran express. At Newkirk, the Q local that it caught was also an R68a.
She's Lucky To Be Alive, let alone not losing a single limb.
Da Hui
She wasn't very committed to the idea, apparently. She jumped at the 6-car mark in a station where the trains rarely enter above 15 MPH.
I doesn't matter if the photos are with or without people in them.
THanks,
Subway grrl
I'm not interested in re-printing photos, just getting some ideas for a graphic designer to work with. Where would I look on the site for Subway station shots?
Thanks!
Subway grrl
As long as Mark W. takes care of my babies, it's in good hands with a professional.
I know they will be taken care of by the greatest step-dad there is in NYCT.
Will 1575 trade places with 100?
In fact, they're almost all front or rear motors!
wayne
923
925
1000
1300
I am still wondering and hoping that one day soon, including during next year's NYC Subway 100th Anniversary celebration, that I myself will actually be inside the restored R-10 car. It would a realized dream come true.
-William A. Padron
["Wash.Hts.-207th St."]
-William A. Padron
["Fulton-Lefferts Blvd."]
From the graphics, it looks like a GRT system: lots of small, one-door cars and several distribution loops. It appears to be integrated with the (for lack of a better term) "Airtrain" terminal at 48 St & 3 Ave.
If the game works with rechrageables, go for it. If it acts flaky, feed them bunnies.
Considering car cleaners don't venture onto the tracks, don't expect to see batteries piling up everywhere. The R-137 "Vak-Trak" cleans the tunnels; I don't know how frequently it gets to a particular location.
John
I drive a Ford Focus not because I dont want to waste but because I am cheap. We live in a land where people are free to chose what type of vehicle they want to drive and use. I have absolute problem with that.
Oh and by the way, the Hummer H2 is a fraud. Its nothing but a full size standard length wheel base Chevy pickup with a Hummer body on it.
John
I drive a Ford Focus not because I dont want to waste but because I am cheap. We live in a land where people are free to chose what type of vehicle they want to drive and use. I have absolutely no problem with that.
Oh and by the way, the Hummer H2 is a fraud. Its nothing but a full size standard length wheel base Chevy pickup with a Hummer body on it.
John
Not exactly true. They beefed up some components, and based on what I've read in the car magazines, the H2 is VERY capable off-road, definitely more-so than a standard 4-wheel-drive Chevy pickup.
and I'd put a better engine in there
http://www.nyc.gov/html/dep/html/drainage.html
The Chinese doesn't have the technology to make lithium or lithium batteries
Your ignorance is astounding.
Reality is China CAN DO whatever is needed, and a lot of people are slowly coming over to "free enterprise" despite the political sins of the Chinese government against their collective. Reality is, China IS getting the jobs, and doing the work cheap. Some prison labour to be sure, but many entrepreneurs are rising as well. If "Western style democracy" is what we're peddling, China is buying. Lithium batteries, no surprise. Hell, most of our phones, everything Wal*Mart sells and then some comes from there. And don't underestimate their ability to learn quickly.
Most of the more SERIOUS trojans, worms and computer viruses ALSO come from China these days. Or Malaysia or Brazil. We've sold the "third world" the American concept of "World peace through World Trade" (once the official slogan of IBM, as pushed by the Rockefellers and other world banking leaders of the time) ... they're buying. And in order for the US to compete, we have to work 15 hour days - just like me ...
I'm still waiting for my 1950's promise of a flying car, automatic house, and that 10 hour workweek. Did I take a wrong toin at Albuquerque? :(
Since this is time of "bringing good cheer" ... this one's for you, bro ...
A tragic fire yesterday destroyed the personal library of President George W. Bush. Both of his books have been lost.
Presidential spokesman Scott McClellan said the President was devastated, as he had not finished coloring the second one.
Imagine.
Thank God Americans have a whole brain.
But close your html next time.
You mean Reagan PROFF, don't you? After all, this IS Subtalk.
There's a simple solution to the problem addressed in this thread: DON'T BUY STUFF FROM SUBWAY PEDDLARS! Buy from STORES!! Stores pay insurance. Stores pay taxes. Stores are legally required to give receipts. Stores don't block already crowded platforms and passageways. Store personnel doesn't harass you to buy their stuff while you're waiting for a train. You can be reasonably sure the store will still be there if there's a problem with the merchandise.
It astounds me how people will patronize these vendors. An old boss fell for the old 'empty Walkman' scam perpetuated on a street corner.
AH,,, yes! Taxes. We haven't ridden *that* train(to keep on topic) in a while.
Well, according to me: A FLAT TAX! Well amost flat, a true flat tax would, could and should never pass.
For Personal Income taxes:
Earn <$100,000 Pay 15%
Earn $100,001 to 1,000,000 Pay 18%
Earn >$1,000,001 Pay 21%
But the kicker, the BIG DEAL is NO EXCEPTIONS or Loop Holes Whatsoever.
Everybody uses the SHORT FORM. Period. No Favors.
The next big kicker is the corporate tax:
1/2 of 1%
On GROSS income. Not on Net Income, Not on Profits.
You see, the corporation gets to decide what is net income or what net profit is, and they can hide tons of money and never pay a dime in tax.
This tax on gross income is way low, but it is on gross income. Every penny touched by the corporation is taxed right when the collect it an put it in the bank. What you say you lost money this year and so you don't own any taxes. Well, that is what you think. You touched the money, you pay the tax on it. No Excepptions, No Loopholes.
Finally:
A Tax is a tax. It is revenue for government. Nothing more. You do not collect more than you need, you do not collect less than what you need. And you certainly do not use the tax law to promote social, environmental or other agenda.
If you need a socal program, pass a law and create it.
If you need to control enviromental discharges, then fine them for doing it, do not give them a tax break for not doing it!
I'd love to pay only 1% on the gross of my self-employment income, rather than 14% on the first dollar of net income, which is what I have to do right now.
I'm sure Durex, Lifestyles, and all the others also come from China too at the rate this country has everything imported as opposed to made here - Oh, you meant the computer kind! : )
A country that has 800 Million people?
Something's not right here.
Maybe 50 years ago.
China has well more than 1 billion people.
Something's not right here.
Get your facts here.
: ) Elias
Get your facts here.
: ) Elias
Flying car: I'd have the LIE coming through my window, not under it. No improvement there.
Automatic house: You can buy one of those now, networking RFID chips. Wait a century on hold for customer support.
10-hour workweek: Some of us are pretty close as it is. Work ten hours, get paid for ten hours. Just because YOU happen to give away an extra sixty or seventy for free ...
1MakinThisThreadTRANSITRelated9
It costs a bit more but at least you know what you are getting.
You ever notice those no names from Japan you get in your remote from a cable company or otherwise last so much longer. Sometimes you find Industrial batteries there and get lucky. :)
AFAIK, these batteries are good for simple things, like remote control devices, toys, clocks, and some radios.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3066207927
Right, POWERCELL, not Dinacell.
Caveat emptor (buyer beware) !
Bill "Newkirk"
Geez...
Damnit, I have them lying around here somewhere, if I could just find them...
And yes, they do exist, and yes, you can buy them in many places.
I have 6 in my smoke detector right now.
Make my new handle steakandkidneypieleftonatubetrain (got to include a transit angle somewhere).
Don't ask em, ask Dave? ;-)
And I think we should hold you to that...
Better than the Jaffa Cake livery they had on the Southern Region Suburban trains at one time (or was it the whole of Network SE?).
And they soon looked so dated that they became blue. Interesting that South Central are painting them green again.
What were they thinking? Okay, it's better than the Connex livery, but that's hardly a compliment.
Regards,
Jimmy
Congratulations on your new handle, though I still liked the (even older) green with a gold stripe that preceeded the blue with yellow front livery. I tried to find some pictures of DMUs on the Darlington-Saltburn railway in the old colours, but couldnt.
Ouch!!!
though I still liked the (even older) green with a gold stripe
I know, it's Raynes Park on the South Western main line, but it's a nice livery:
Personally, I can see a precise order in how good the liveries past and present were:
1) Rail Blue with the "grey" around the windows
2) plain Rail Blue
3) Pullman
4) BR Green
5) Southern Green
6) Jaffa Cake
7) South Central
8) NSE
9) Stagecoach - SWT
10) Connex
The trains we rode were open inside and I think had just two doors on each side at the ends of the cars. There were also different car types: driving/non driving and guards van, which had open space for luggage. The driving cars had first class accommodations just behind the motormans cabfor your extra shillings you got two across, instead of three/two and armrests! (I used to sneak in and stand at the front of First Class and look through the RFW into the cabI was even invited in a couple of times and got to drive the train!) There were also three window panes at the front: if there was a destination sign, it was small.
Some of the details are difficult to rememberI last rode these trains on a regular basis going to high school (28 years ago!) and the line has changed a lot since. (While looking for pictures I found this fascinating write-up of the Middlesborough-Saltburn portion of the line.
Sadly, the glory is gone. Fine station buildings have been torn down or converted, tracks have been pulled up and the buses-on-rails that NArrive-pas uses cant hold a candle to the real trains.
That would never happen these days...
Sadly, the glory is gone. Fine station buildings have been torn down or converted, tracks have been pulled up and the buses-on-rails that NArrive-pas uses cant hold a candle to the real trains.
At least this privatisation is showing signs of falling apart...
And I'm glad that there's finally as much ridership as before Beeching massacred our railway network - just think how many more people would ride if, say, you could still get to stations like Monmouth May Hill, Brackley Central or Halesowen.
I dont much about the Midlands, but appreciate the thought. In Saltburn, which had a fine station:
with extra platforms for the guests of the local hotel:
now sadly torn up:
there was a line to Whitby along the coast, which went over this viaduct:
Sadly a victim of Dr Beeching, may he rot. The views must have been spectacular going along the cliffs. The viaduct is still used for freightICI brings potash from Boulby, and I should have walked over it (the line went past the bottom of my garden at one stage), but I never got round to it. Sad.
It did happen ... in November of 1967 :)
--Mark
Good thing we don't have ranks on this site...
Haha
Because there is no other ROW that wouldn't require condemnation.
I also wonder why the freight railroad renders it unusable after 10 pm
Three words: Federal Railroad Administration
Street running in Camden and probably sharp curves approaching Trenton station would preclude RDCs from operating there. They could, however, shuttle between 36th Street and Bordentown.
But that would be offset by it being of more use.
Only if they instituted some jackassed stopping pattern. A suburban rail line running 4tph peak, 3tph between peaks and all day Saturday, 2tph evenings and Sundays would provide a better quality journey and still serve local passengers if enough stations are put in the right places.
In fact, doesn't the line run in a rather tangential direction for Philly anyway?
Light Rail could run down city streets as well as provide more frequent operation with reduced operating cost.
Translation: it can get stuck in traffic jams whilst you pay huge numbers of motormen.
This has only a slight relevance to this thread, but heavy rail can run down streets:
Weymouth Quay, England.
Anyway, the whole thing was that due to the general condition of Camden and Trenton, the only way people would use the rail line to reach the attractions that Camden and Trenton have is if they were delivered directly to them. If people were forced to walk from Rand to the Tweeter Center nobody would go for it. It would be like when the wee turtles hatch and need to reach the sea before the predators pick them off.
Heavy rail used to run on this route. My father took a train from Haddonfield to Trenton in 1954 and when he returned he talked about the train running down the middle of the street in Burlington. It was the Pennsylvania Railroad then.
I don't think it will give light rail a bad name. I do think it will kill any change of South Jersey getting the transit lines it DOES need.
I also wonder, if this is the case, how to make it more cost effective
Run commuter rail on 30-60 minute headways.
I wonder why they put it along a ROW that becomes unusable after 10 pm (which precludes many sports fans from using it on weekends, etc.)
What other RoW would you suggest they use.
I also wonder why the freight railroad renders it unusable after 10 pm, and whether someone is deliberately trying to derail light rail with this project (and, if so, who).
Because light rail vehicles have all the structural integrity of an accordian, running them on the same track as freight trains would rend to result in large blood stains and body part dispersal. Fortunately the FRA has rules against such unsafe practices.
Anyway, don't call it the "River Line". The River Line runs from HACK to CP-SK in Albany. Call the SJLR by its cool new nickname "The Doggle".
This is what I find especially curious: one of the reasons (not the only reason of course) this line was built and not the others is that a railroad ROW already existed, and that, in theory, would make the project cost less money. But in reality, this thing's pricetag has run into the billions of dollars. Did New Jersey really save any money by building this line instead of the needed Glasboro line?
This particular fact makes me think it was the oft-cited political reasons that drove this line rather than the savings which didn't materialize.
Mark
Mark
The problem is that if the line were built, Moorestown would need to demolish some lo-income housing that is too close to the tracks and needs to be broguht up to code. Then, in order to meet state/federal standards, they would need to replace said housing. Unfortunately all other areas of Moorestown are high income so naturally the town uses its political mussle to block the project.
I don't get the NIMBYs either. The low-income housing is there whether they build the rail line or not, and it seems to me that I'd rather have new low-income housing units in my neighborhod than an old one, just because the condition of the new one will probably be better and because the new low-income housing is less likely to be warehouse-style high-rise projects.
Or perhaps the housing would be rebuilt on a different site? Are the residents afraid that the new low-income housing will be built closer to teh affluent areas?
Mark
Yes, exactly. Moorestown has like this single low incole alley around the tracks. If they were demolished they would have to be re-built in a non-low income area that could have been used for high income housing.
Here's mine:
Full width, with nothing covering inner door plastic/glass.
You are one sick mama.
:)
And also the inability for the CR to see island platform stations.
Then again, railfan windows are awesome.
-Julian
They've managed to get by for this long...
Isn't that sort of inconvenient?
Ask a T/O on the A if he prefers an R-44 or an R-38.
It's not the width of the cab that's critical; it's the length (or depth, or whatever you want to call that dimension).
And also the inability for the CR to see island platform stations.
Video monitors take care of that problem better than the widest of cabs.
No ATO subway operates like that.
Airtrain JFK
Paris Ligne 14
Vancouver Skytrain
Scarborough RT in Toronto
It (albeit briefly) runs underground.
Midtrain cab, C/O.
No cab, T/O. ATO for normal operation.
Lille.
London, DLR.
Paris, ligne 14.
Paris, OrlyVAL.
Rennes.
Toronto, Scarborough RT.
Toulouse.
Vancouver.
Avid
Regards,
Jimmy
I AM EVIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! *sarcasm, although I'd gladly be as evil as h--- to a vandal if I saw one*
I liked Giuliani's plan on Saturday Night Live better: writing "sucks" underneath every vandal's tag.
Mark
Chuck Greene
Coming in second was the opening of the JFK AIRTRAIN.
Third, was the opening of Secaucus Junction by NJT.
The worst was the SI Ferry crash, and the LACMTA strike.
1]PATH returns to the WTC
2]Secaucus Junction opens
3]JFK Airtrain fianlly opens
4]LACMTA Gold Line opens
5]SEPTA opens the Frankford Transportation Center
6]Retirement of the Redbirds
7]Debut of the PCC-2 [or Britney Spears wearing Betty Grable's Swimsuit]
8]Staten Island Ferry Crash and unfolding scandal
9] David Gunn's putting the hammer down at AMTRAK
10]Miami Metrorail goes 24/7.
Oh no. We all know that it goes real slow with the hammer down, it's the country-fired railroad endorsed by a clown.
Coming in second was the opening of the JFK AIRTRAIN.
Third, was the opening of Secaucus Junction by NJT.
The worst was the SI Ferry crash, and the LACMTA strike.
"Doesn't make any sense."--as said by Walter Matthau in the Taking of Pelham 123.
It should be "R142 to the 3".
You know I men't R142 yet you still choose to piss me off.
Frank Hicks
#3 West End Jeff
Retirement of the Redbirds, the 7 train fleet being entirely R62A and the advent of Airtrain are, in my personal opinion, negative developments. Some may view them as positive.
Then there's the arrival of the M7s.
Well, maybe the Howard Beach leg.
The actual fare is $1.67 or less. This number is only $.17 more than it was about a decade ago in the mid-90's when they raised the fare to $1.50, but all the stations weren't MetroCard equiped yet. I think it's positive that the fare only went up $.17 in about 10 years.
--Mark
2: NJT opens Secaucus Transfer
3: WMATA makes a quick BUCK at Addison Road.
4: PATH returns to WTC
5: Extension of Hudson-Bergen Light Rail to 22nd Street
WORST...
1: ANOTHER pushback for the River Line's opening... it could have been #3 of best, but that will wait till 2004
2: 9/22/2003: Route 13 hits the wall!
3: Twilight Shoreliner: That's ALL, folks!
4: CSX kicks the R8 Fox Chase off it's own tracks
5: WMATA fare increase...
HONORABLE MENTION:
Best: Bredas Equatus CAFicus... nice overhaul, WMATA
Best:... and the Broad-Ridge Spur LIVES!
Best: In-progress renovation of Walnut-Locust Station, local stop and Express terminal on the Broad Street Line... looks nice on the completed end.
Best: In-progress elevator installation and canopy entrance construction at 30th Street Station (MFL/Subway-Surface Lines)
Best: Mid-Winter trip announced!
Worst: ... "via Ronald Reagan National Airport"... the renaming was ENOUGH, this is plain wrong!
Worst: Regional Rail's on-time performance lately.
Worst: Adieu, Redbirds... I hardly knew ye. But the future we have to look forward to.
Worst: "Frank R. Lautenberg Secaucus Junction"? NJT, quit sucking up; your name is NOT Kirby!
Strange: Stadium-Armory=WORSE crunch than Metro Center??? (My poor back)
Disastrous: The SI Ferry crash.
Funny: SNJLRTS becomes the "River Line"
Festive: FTC opening day... people STILL couldn't find the 20, though.
Chuck Greene
NYC: Manny B reopening, and the CENTENNIAL!
WMATA: NY Avenue, and the Blue Line Extension.
NJT: SNJLRTS (River Line), probably the opening of the Morrisville Yard, and more HBLR extensions. (So I've heard)
SEPTA: Full restoration of the Bridge Street building at FTC, ROUTE 15 GOES BACK TO TROLLEY, and the SILVERLINER V ARRIVES!
The East Coast is gonna be the place to be for the railfans of 2004. I'm already seeking opening dates for the River Line and 15 trolley, WMATA's stations open in December, and I REALLY wanna make the NYC Subway Centennial, since I've never railfanned there before.
I'm hoping lots of subtalkers will be free on Wednesday, October 27th. This would definitely be a day for all of us to stay together: There will be nostolgic subways to ride in all the boroughs, and hopefully the re-enactment of the opening of the subway will be open to the public. This will be a historic day for all railfans to remember!! -Nick
10:30 AM, boarding from 59th Street/Columbus Circle middle.
South via D line to 34th Street.
North via Sixth Avenue and 53rd Street to Queens Plaza; relay on Track D-5.
South via R line to south of Lexington Avenue/60th Street.
North via the W line to Ditmars Blvd., using Track G-3/4 if available between Beebe and Astoria Blvd.
South via the W line, by Track G-3/4 if available, to south of Lexington Avenue/60th Street.
North via the R line to Queens Plaza; relay on Track D-5.
South via 53rd Street and Sixth Avenue to Jay Street, then via A/H lines to Rockaway Park and lunch.
North via A/H lines to Pitkin Yard, then north via A line to Jay Street.
South via F line to 4th Avenue.
North via F line to Jay Street, then via A/C lines to 59th Street/Columbus Circle and end.
Train lays up to 207th Street Yard
Da Hui
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
til next time
til next time
Da Hui
It WILL be great to finally ride this equipment out to Rockaway, something I never managed to do while it was still in service despite many attempts.
Very good weather is forecast for Saturday: partly sunny and in the upper forties.
The best part is, I don't have to go to work the next day!! Prior to this, any trip I wanted to go on or was able to make was always on a Sunday.
Seek and you shall find:
And finally, although it is a fan trip and not revenue:
The color picture is of a fan trip with "Museum Cars", while the
black & whites are of the R-1s in BMT service about 1948, with the
storm doors locked between cars. >>GG<<
:>) ~ Sparky
Regards,
Jimmy
Regards,
Jimmy
Build a spur branching off the Lex. Ave. line just north of 125th street, and make it stretch crosstown across Harlem, connecting the (2)/(3), Eigth Ave. Lines, and Broadway Lines. It would terminate on the west side below the 125th Street IRT station, and at 116th or 110th on the Lex. Ave. line. (It wouldn't terminate at 125th because so many people would be itching to jump on it.)
Julian
=)
I worry about the damage to those new stores if you tear up 125th for construction -- I'm not normally the world's biggest NIMBY, but in this case, I think there's an easier place to put a crosstown connector.
B Division standards, that is the BMT and IND common standard, meaning that it cannot readily be extended to any IRT line.
Julian
Then again, they wouldn't need that if they just made it IRT and connected to IRT(like the 1/9)
It is a 125th Street Crosstown Lion that is a part of the Second Avenue Subway. It is a subway uner 125th Street all the way to the Hudson River. It is not so much as an interchange for the (1) (9) as it is to serve all of 125th Street, and to serve Crosstown traffic.
Yes there has to be a connection with the Broadway Lion (and a venerable old lion he is too) but since ADA considerations suggest an elevator anyway, the vertical separtation is a non-issue.
Elias
I like:
White X/Y/S:
X= Express
Y= Local
S= Rush hour 125th st. shuttle
With the SAS terminating at 125th, why run a 125th Street crosstown as a separate shuttle? Just run a single through service.
That's saddening.
BTW, what color will the (T) be?
Train to the plane blue.
Bill "Newkirk"
Regards,
Jimmy
So if that is the case, then *my* plan makes more and more sense!
(A) 8 Ave Exp / Fulton Exp
(E) 8 Ave Exp / Fulton Local
(C) 8 Ave Lcl / Culver Exp
(V) 6 Ave Lcl / Chambers WTC
This ELIMINATES any switching on the 8th Ave Line south of 50th Street: All 8th Ave Exp take the Cranberry
8th Ave Lcl takes the Rutgers
and the 6th Avenue Local terminates at Chambers WTC
All via flying crossovers and no unnecessary switching.
Elias
The A and C service is so bad at times that it borders on fariscal. Waiting 15 or more minutes for a rush hour express train is mind boggling, and I've done it more than once at 59 St on the A
(w)ayne
For some reason the A is really bad when it comes to GOs. Tuesday night when I was at Euclid there was a train that was 25 minutes late (making it 40 min since its leader passed), and his follower was 15 late! It seems to be the norm on the A as I haven't clocked an A less than 10 minutes late after about 11:30.
The 44's were JUST starting to come in when I left the TA ... and they were troublesome when NEW. I shudder to think of what's happened to them in 30 years ...
Now wait just a minute about the arnine I not sure about standing between cars but as a T/O I would say bring them on!
Happy Holidays!!
I'm not the LEAST bit surprised that the 44's are a mess - I spent an afternoon "qualifying" on them and got told that I'd probably never see one since the more senior guys would be getting dibs on them before me. Heh. I wasn't at ALL impressed by the controller. And besides, there's one little ditty you "indoor guys" don't get that WE did when we stood out there in the rain ... "chickie sympathy" ... doing the monkeybar climb seemed to get us beaucoup dates. Big burly conductors climbing up and down the steel while it was MOVING. :)
David
So if we re-enabled field shunting and gave the R-44's at least 5.9 miles of straight and level track to play with, it's anybody's guess what speed they'd top out at?
(a) when is expected to happen?
(b) what LIRR lines or routes will actually be linked to GCT, and how?
(c) will service to Penn Station be reduced?
(d) what existing tracks, tunnels, etc. will be used to connect to GCT, and what new ones will have to be built?
:-) Andrew
Metro-North and LIRR trains will never meet or share platforms.
Thanks,
Dave
Also, what is the difference between the LIRR and Metro North third rails, which makes it impossible for the two lines to use the same tracks?
Thanks,
Dave
New England-bound trains do this, and always have.
Upstate New York trains use the line on the west side of Manhattan.
Also, what is the difference between the LIRR and Metro North third rails, which makes it impossible for the two lines to use the same tracks?
MN is underruning, LIRR is overruning. Over/under indicates on which side of the third rail the shoe is located (the device that contacts the third rail).
The connection built to connect Penn to the west side also allowed the LIRR to use the West Side Yard.
But if I had a nickel for all the times I did a sprint from GCT to catch a connecting train east or south out of Penn (and MISS it) before the new connection, I'd have a lot of nickels. The current arrangement is WAY better!
Hopefully, and this would need a LOT of hope, Amtrak will restart GCT service when the ESA is completed, and the NYP-GCT connection is completed.
There is no plan in ESA to connect GCT with NYP.
Note that Sunnyside Station is intended only for Penn-bound trains. GCT bound trains will have already disappeared into a tunnel by that point.
Time for bickering is over. It's time to start digging some new subways.
Dec.19, 2003
"The first two cars of the new M-7 order are here! 4000-4001 arrived on the property at Croton-Harmon last night, delivered by the D&H freight. They came in on their own wheels, with knuckle adapters so they could be handled in the freight. When this M-7 order is complete, the 1956 Pullman Standard fleet of 1100s will finally be retired."
I think he meant 1965.
Bill "Newkirk"
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
I rode the LIRR's M-7 a few days ago (I'm now back in KCMO). It had flt wheels, but was a little quieter than an M-1 with flat wheels. It swayed less than an M1, and had good heat. The door took a tiny bit longer to open than the M1's doors; no big deal there.
I loved the interior design. Of course, it was crowded...
BTW, you can watch out the front, provided the engineer doesn't pull the metal screen up on the window.
The LIRR engineer I talked to says they've been derated a bit already, but our 10 car PW line train wasn't doing TOO bad, given it had one dead axle...
Oh yes, they can hit the platform at 45, and stop nicely.
Without air*.
The engineer described the braking as 'phenominal', which given the high marks the C cars got, says a lot. He was less happy about the horn, and full width cab - on the KO line, he says the full width cab makes the horn noise annoying.
The ride was smooth, the announcements annoying. The HVAC cut out only a few times, but the lights didn't even flicker (no surprise there). The famillar M-1 whine at high speed replaced by a lower pitch moan. They're otherwise realatively quiet, though fresh air vent action was a bit noisy. The seats suck. The ADA bathroom in the center of the car's lame too.
I didn't notice the doors being that much slower, and the vestibule is a lot quieter with a full leaf, which I'm suspecting is why the LIRR wanted one in the first place. NVH, guys.
The ride's smooth, as would be expected from modern truck design. I didn't notice the acceleration to be really any better than the M-1s, though it could have been driving technique.
The talking announcements are annoying as hell. The cars are also bright, though a bit less so than the C cars.
Did I mention the talking announcements are annoying?
*There's a 5psi in the cylinder initial shot (inshot?), then it ramps up at about 1mph (seriously), and goes high at 0. Apparently, Mitsubishi's rail inverters can't do holding torque, though their smaller FR-A-520s can. I don't know if they do DC injection braking, though I suspect they just might. From what I've read, they're closed loop encoder feedback types, so they can do all sorts of neat tricks...
Oh I have, when the M-1/3's first accelerate from a standing start, there is a slight jerk and a slow pickup. When the M-7's accelerate from a standing start, the acceleration is smooth and quick, no jerking motion.
BTW, my LIRR engineer friend tells me the following:
1) The M-7 MDBF is a little over 220,000 miles !
2) Highest number he's seen as of yesterday was 7220.
3) A fire on a M-1 on the Hempstead Branch last week spelled the end of a pair of M-1's. A traction motor fire burned the side of the car, which would have been repairable years ago. The pair was decommissioned and will be sent south of the border. Holban yard was filled with decommissioned M-1's. Now they're all gone.
4) Deliveries of M-7's (LIRR) will slow down from 20 cars a month to about 6 while Metro North starts to receive theirs.
5) Fresh Pond yard (NY&A) has a bunch of empty trailers just waiting for some scrapped M-1's. A pair of M-7's were delivered yesterday.
Bill "Newkirk"
Great 2004 Subway Calendar, by the way. I bought it just before returning to KC. It seems you've got some competition in the Transit Museum store in the form of a Metro-North calendar and LIRR calendar.
Thanks for the compliment.
" It seems you've got some competition in the Transit Museum store in the form of a Metro-North calendar and LIRR calendar"
No competition there, that calendar is published by the same outfit that publishes mine, Weekend Chief Publishing.
Bill "Newkirk"
And it's not needed - the C cars have them at the ends and they're just fine.
R-32.
Yeah, but Airtrain (JFK) has a friggin' picture window for railfans. Possibly the biggest one you'd ever see !
Bill "Newkirk"
Oy vey... Did you see any signs at JFK AirTrain saying that photography was illegal? Huh? Huh? Didja? Didja? No, you say? Well then, why did you just assume that it was illegal? You just let the terrorists win.
Are those the Budd Pioneer cars ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Incognito
The West Farms Kid
Showcasing Mass Transit--The Cleanairbus Transit Page
Richard Simonetta, former head of Atlanta's light-rail system and past chairman of the American Public Transportation Association, is the new CEO of the Valley's fledgling light-rail system, Metro. The 20-mile system is in the final design stage, with construction scheduled to begin in the spring. Simonetta recently met with The Republic's Editorial Board. Here are highlights of that conversation:
I agree - Simonetta understands what works and what doesn't from a transit standpoint, and I think he has a pretty good grip on what Phoenix needs. Central Avenue (a major component of the Metro route) is a big, wide street that at times is nearly abandoned and at other times is packed with cars, but there's rarely any people because there are no destinations on much of it. Fostering transit-oriented development will tend to balance things out and should bring some life back to that area.
Oh, and there's already one transit-oriented "development" there... the Arizona Street Railway Museum, located at 1218 N. Central Avenue.
Official website
My photos
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You did bring up a good point. I was on the bus late today, over an hour for each way for a 6 mile trip in this "holiday" traffic. Anyway, backed up each light for miles, and I don't remember hearing the engine rev, just an idle movement. Well, lots of people, but not really any destinations. Only "destinations" I can spot on the route would be the reg Wal-mart and Best Buy.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
My trip started on Friday afternoon. I got a ride to the Metro and took Rohr 1247 down to Union Station. On the way there, we passed a train in the pocket at Farragut North. When I got off at Union Station, PIMS said the next train was out of service. I saw its headlights and hoped to get a movie of the train running all the way through the station. Instead it stopped, and some employees at the back keyed open a door and began to make measurements between the train and platform. Apparently, there had been a dragging and they needed to investigate. When the next train came up, they keyed themselves back on to the train and went to Brentwood. I talked to the operator while they sat there. He hasnt been trained on the CAFs yet either, but said he prefers the Rohrs over the Bredas since the former stop in the snow whereas the Bredas have more trouble. This is the first time I had ever heard the car classes compared from an operational standpoint.
I then proceeded into the train station, saw the not-so-great Norwegian train display, and got lunch from Sbarros. Soon, my train was called and I went to board. It was Acela Express 2168 with trainset number 9 (2035-2039). I went up front to the Quiet Car. Even though the train was sold out north of Philadelphia, the Quiet Car rules were well enforced the entire trip. We arrived at New York only a few minutes late, and when we arrived, I got off the train and went for the 8th Avenue subway. I swiped my MetroCards until I found one with money on it, and waited for an E train. It wasnt long before one showed up. I got on the last car, R32 3611. I took that to Lexington Avenue, which seemed less crowded than before the new escalator was finished. I rode up to the transfer to the 6 and walked to the uptown platform, where a train was just pulling in. Throughout my trip, I hardly ever waited for trains or buses, though the M104 persisted to cause problems every time I rode it. Anyway, the train had the updated announcements and THE NEXT STOP IS displays. It also called itself a Bronx-bound 6 local train. The lead car, which I was on, was 7511, and was the last train I would ride that day.
The next day, my travels started by taking R142A 7300 to Grand Central. But first, I had to go to the uptown side of the station to buy a day pass since the MVM was not accepting bills. Some kid tried to sell me a swipe but I knew better and told him it was illegal. On the other side of the station, there were two NYPD officers, and I reported the kid to them. When I went back, the officers came with me, but the kid and his friends fled when they saw me come back. The train called itself a Brooklyn Bridge bound 6 train and had the new LED displays. At the Transit Museum store, I bought another redbird number plate and some other goodies. I went back to the subway and got on R142A 7265, also calling itself a Brooklyn Bridge bound 6 train, and took that to Astor Place. I walked around the NYU area a bit (I should have walked to Bleeker Street since I wanted to wind up at 8th Street on the N/R but oh well). When I got to 8th Street, I entered the subway as an R train came in. I got on the second car, 5973 and moved into the first at 14th. But there was a red signal, so we didnt go anywhere. I listened to the radio and overheard the words congestion. When a Q pulled in across the platform, I took it. It was led by R68 2770. While en route to 34th, we passed several local trains. Upon arriving at 34th, a train of R32s on the R was pulling out, and the Q was confronted with a red signal. An R came in on the other side but also had a red signal. After a few minutes, I got fed up and went off for the F or D, whichever came first. A D was sitting at 34th, having just arrived, so I got on the first car, R68 2502. I took it to 59th Street, although it had to wait for an A before reaching that station. Why do they schedule them like that? I also saw an R32 on the F going to Brooklyn. Those things never run in the direction I am going. I then walked through Central Park and took many pictures until I got back to where I was staying.
That evening, I went to see Phantom of the Opera. After eating dinner out, I took R142A 7381, the 5th car of the Manhattan bound 6 train (it had the updated LED displays, too) train, to 42nd Street where I changed for the Shuttle (R62A 1945), the last car on the train. To get home from the show, I took RTS 5180 on the M104 (I miss the Orion Vs that used to run there). An M10 was at the stop at the same time as the M104 but I wasnt sure I would reach it before it left. Naturally, the M104 was slower than the M10 and another M10 passed us before Columbus Circle. But there was a good side to all of this. A D60HF with orange signs was waiting at 79th Street and actually waited for the passengers connecting from the M104. It turned out to be 5721. I took it across town and got off at Madison and chased the bus all the way to Third, getting pictures at Broadway, Madison, Lex, and Third.
My travels on Sunday were more limited than on the other days. I started by taking D60HF 5722 on the M79 to Columbus Avenue. That bus also had orange signs and I got pictures. I also saw D60HF 5619 on the M102. That bus interests me since it shares its number with the Ride-On bus I rode many days for 8 months. At Columbus, Orion V 6010 pulled up almost immediately on the M7 and I took it to Lincoln Center and watched the Big Apple Circus. After a backstage tour following the show, I went to the bus stop and waited for the M5 to go to Saks Fifth Avenue. Eventually, RTS 9608 came. The trip was very slow from 59th and 6th to 5th and 49th due to all the holiday traffic. After taking care of what I needed to do in Saks, I got photos of the tree in Rockefeller Center and then went over to Madison Avenue to go home. An M2 limited had just left so I waited for the next bus. An M4 pulled up within a few minutes and with no other bus that could potentially be a limited in sight, I decided to take it. It was a 9600 series RTS but I didnt record the actual number nor do I remember it. The trip uptown was a long one due to the many crowds and an M2 limited came out of nowhere and passed us not far from where I got on, but eventually we got to where I was going. While walking back to the apartment, 5619 came down Lexington Avenue, so I got pictures of it.
Monday was my big railfanning day and I covered a great deal of territory. I started at 9:05 AM by hopping on R142A 7495, a Brooklyn Bridge bound 6 train. At Grand Central, I went across the platform to R142 1191 on the 4 and took that to Fulton. I went to the A train platform and waited for a Far Rockaway train, which came within a reasonable amount of time. The lead car was R44 5440. I took that to Howard Beach where I went to the AirTrain terminal. As soon as I got there, an announcement was made to the effect of there is a delay. After awhile a train showed up, and I got on. I took that train to terminal 7, took a train on the terminal loop to terminal 4, looked at the ticket counter area which was reminiscent of European airports, and then took a train to Jamaica. The run on the Van Wyck is quite something. The AirTrain reminded me of the Disney World Monorail to an extent. I also compare it to the Acela Express because while it runs for the most part, the various amenities do not work, such as door chimes, automated announcements, and LEDs. The first train I was on did not have door chimes and one train had a non-working LED. I also did not like how the announcement told us to consult the airline directory at each stop, it got very annoying very quickly.
At Jamaica, I went to the LIRR station to get some pictures. A Far Rockaway departure was listed for a few minutes later and I hoped it would have an M7 consist. It didnt. The only M7 train that came through was an inbound train and since I didnt want to be the only person on the inbound platform once both trains left, I didnt photograph it. After a few minutes, I went to the J train. Those stations are in really bad shape considering their age! After a few minutes, a J train came in, led by R42 4841. I took that to Norwood Avenue where I got a picture of a Jamaica bound train. Then, because the J only comes about as often as a DASH (Alexandria, VA) bus, another Jamaica bound train came through before the next Manhattan bound train, which was led by R42 4603. I took that to Marcy Avenue where I exited and crossed over for an M to Metropolitan Avenue. The J express run between Myrtle and Marcy is quite good and I am surprised no one ever gave it a good rating on SubTalk before. And it still has a railfan window! My M train was led by R42 4762, and I took it to Metropolitan Avenue. The Myrtle Avenue line isnt bad at all. This was my first time on the Myrtle El, as well as the J between ENY and Chambers. If it werent for the J being so slow between ENY and Jamaica and infrequent along its whole length, I might actually like it a bit more. Anyway, I took the next M train (R42 4899) back to Myrtle where a J express was pulling in across the platform. It was now a few minutes past 1 PM and I was surprised the J was still express. When does outbound J express service start? The train was led by R40M 4549. I took it all the way to Broad Street, giving me my first ride over the Williamsburg Bridge. I also went through Essex, Bowery, and Canal (Nassau Line) stations for the first time, so I have now been in every station in Manhattan as well as the Bronx. I have under 50 more to go until I do the entire system. At Broad, I got out and eventually found benches along Trinity Place near the exit of the Brooklyn-Battery Tunnel, where I ate the lunch I had brought for myself.
After lunch, I walked to the WTC PATH station. The write-ups of the WTC history on the fence around the WTC site are very well done in my opinion. The PATH concourse was pretty busy it seemed. I do agree that the entire station is cold and bare but I assume in its finished form, it will not look that way. I took a Hoboken bound train (lead car 614, I dont know how to tell PATH cars apart) and walked around the terminal a bit, and used the restroom. Of course, on a day when my friend in Ridgewood cant see me, they have a Comet V as part of a Main/Bergen Line consist. After a bit, I went to the HBLR platform and boarded car 2007, which I took to Liberty State Park. The automated announcements were not working on this train. At Liberty State Park, I changed directions and took car 2029 to Exchange Place, where I descended into the PATH again. This time, I took a Newark bound train, led by car 881, to Newark. I must say, I really love the run from Journal Square to Harrison, and it seems better outbound, too (Ive done it 3 times inbound, once outbound). At Newark, I went off in search of the city subway. Seeing how they had the 50-cent downtown fare as far as Warren Street, I took car 112 to Warren Street, crossed over, and took 117 back to Newark Penn. At Newark Penn, I went out to the bus lanes and watched the buses go by for a few minutes, then had a snack. After eating, I went back inside the station. An Acela Express was arriving, so I photographed it coming in, as well as several other Amtrak and NJT trains. After a bit, I decided I needed to start heading back into the city, so I went to the PATH and got on car 879. At Journal Square, I crossed over to a 33rd Street bound train which I rode to 33rd Street (699). I decided to go photograph MCI coaches laying over before going to Staten Island on 59th Street so I took the R (R46 5804) up to 5th Avenue and then walked along 59th Street to Columbus Circle, getting my shots along the way. At Columbus Circle, I decided to go over to the M7/104 stop, since an M10 had just gone by. An M7 and M104 pulled up simultaneously, but the M7 was packed, so I opted for the M104 (RTS 8770). Bad choice, since the M7 left right away and the M104 sat in the stop for awhile with the doors open. Another M7 came and we left just before it did, but that M7 passed us at Lincoln Center. Eventually, we got to 79th Street, where D60HF 5576 was waiting to take me across town. I got back to where I was staying at 6:15, about 9 hours after I left.
Finally, this morning, I took R142A 7271 (6th car) to 51st Street, rode down the new escalator to the E/V platform (I like the tile work around the escalator), and got on R32 3611 (same train that I first rode when I arrived in New York Friday evening) to Penn Station. The R142A on the 6 only had one piece of artwork, the other frame was empty. We rode the yellows the entire way to Penn Station but the trip was still pretty fast. Door to door was no more than 20 minutes and I got both the 6 and E as soon as I entered the station. When the arrival screens showed track 13 as the arrival track for my train, Acela Express 2155, I went down there via the LIRR level and got there before the train did. I took my seat in the Quiet Car long before anyone else arrived there. The Quiet Car was more crowded than usual, but not excessively so, since I had both seats to myself all the way to Washington. We ran on time the entire way to DC and arrived on time. Once in Washington, I headed for the Metro and took Breda 3224 to Cleveland Park (4 car train, why do they do this?) and got a ride home from there.
Pictures coming to my website soon, I am leaving town again at the end of the week so we will see what happens with them.
Questions:
1. Are there differences between the AirTrain cars with 1XX numbers and 2XX numbers?
2. When does outbound J express service between Marcy and Myrtle Avenues begin?
3. How fast does the PATH go between Journal Square and Harrison? My guess is around 70 MPH.
4. Can you use a one way ticket for either the Newark Subway or HBLR as much as you want as long as it is within the validated period (45 and 90 minutes, respectively)?
5. What is up with the 6 train announcements? What is the correct version supposed to be now?
P.S. for Go Go 6 Train and TheGreatOne: As usual, the weekend 6 met demands. The trains have ample capacity but people at 77th and 68th, among other stations, cluster at the middle so the crowd isn't evenly distributed. I repeat, there is NO need to add service to the 6 over the weekend.
5721 was spotted on the M23 on Monday.
1) I don't know
2) I don't know - look in the schedules online
3) I clocked a PATH train at 62.3 MPH with my GPS unit. I've heard that the actual speed limit may be less than that...
4) um, that's the idea...
5) dang if I know
P.S. - you do not have the technical knowledge nor appropriate data to make the statements you just made in your P.S.
If still don't understand, feel free to email me and we can discuss this privately.
I'm not sure what you mean by that question.
Most of the (6) trains now have updated announcements in them, but a select few didn't respond well to the update, and they continue to call themselves a Manhattan-bound (6) train even after entering Manhattan.
As for calling itself a (6) local, it does that on weekdays when the <6> express is running, even if the train is going in the opposite direction. I don't mind this, but it creates confusion when somebody boards after seeing it signed as a BRONX EXPRESS, but it announces itself as a Bronx-bound (6) local train at every stop in Manhattan. Once it gets to the first stop in the Bronx, it changes the announcement to: "This. Is a Pelham Bay Park-bound (6) express train. The next. Stop is Hunts Point Avenue."
Why am I not surprised. I would find it hard to believe that their are NOT any performance differences.
It kind of like comparing a 1997 Ford Escort to a 2003 Ford Focus. I have owned and driven both many miles under many different conditions. Both have the same displacement engines and power curve. Both cars have nearly the same curb weight. Both cars have nearly the same 0 to 60 MPH times. The Escort has antilock breaks the Focus does not. The Focus has four wheel independent suspension the Escort does not. The Focus will take a curve much flatter and faster then will the Escort. The Escort is easier to control under hard braking then the Focus. The two cars will perform differently under similar conditions.
John
And look, you're not even in the running for the top ten this month. So save your material for January when you can win it all.
That is sooooooooooooooooooooooooooo !@#$%^& corney.
Bill "Newkirk"
Risk Assessment and Failure Analysis in Multiple Small Illumination
Sources During Winter Conditions
By Robert M. Slade
version 1.0, 20031217
Q: How many Systems Analysts does it take to change a Christmas light?
A: None, Christmas lights are hardware.
ABSTRACT
In the author's immediate socio-cultural environment, the unpacking,
testing, placement, and maintenance of Christmas lights has been
mandated to be "man's work." (Women will, reluctantly, direct the
placement of lights, since it is an observed fact that a man has all
the artistic sensitivity of a Volkswagen. The car, not the automotive
designers.) Therefore, despite the complete lack of any evidence of
competence in domestic "handiness," or knowledge of electrical
appliances, the author has found himself making an extensive, multi-
year study of failure modes in different forms of lighting involving
multiple small light sources.
This paper examines the various failure modes that have been designed
as part of different formats of such lighting, and, being a confirmed
pessimist, the author conjectures about possible future design
failures.
INTRODUCTION
In the middle of winter, when fogs and rains most abound, the
inhabitants of the north western parts of Europe, as well as much of
North America, engage in a frenzy of activity. The purpose of many of
these exercises is unclear. The sociologist and cultural observer C.
S. Lewis (in an essay entitled "Crissmas and Exmas," published in 1947
and for some reason frequently attributed to the much older historian
Herodotus) ventures that these endeavours are religious observances in
honour of a god that most of the population does not believe exists.
On the face of it, this suggestion is absurd. No alternative
hypothesis has, though, withstood detailed scrutiny.
We examine here the practice of the placement of additional light
sources both within and outside domiciles and business establishments
during this period. Initial speculation that these sources provided
necessary illumination has been demonstrated to be false, despite the
shortening and weakening of daylight during this time, since a) the
practice is conducted in parts of the world where the additional
lighting is not required, b) the levels of illumination produced are
insufficient for most work, and c) the light sources appear designed
to fail readily, frequently, and in such a manner as to prevent
problem rectification.
ALTERNATIVE LIGHT SOURCE DESIGNS
A variety of technologies has been used in the multiple light source
practice. These will be examined in turn.
Candles
Originally, the light sources used were candles. In particular,
candles were placed on or within decorated trees. This gives some
weight to the theory of religious observance, since the practitioners
would obviously trust in God to allow them to survive the ceremony.
The candle technology appears to have fallen out of favour with
practitioners, though. There may be many reasons for this, such as
the fact that modern cultured and artificial Christmas trees are much
denser with foliage than trees used to be, or the fact that by the
time all the candles on the tree were lit the first would have burned
out. (In a given evening, a typical Christmas tree requires a
quantity of candles such that an equivalent amount of gasoline would
drive a Volkswagen approximately fifty kilometres.)
Candlelit Christmas trees are subject to catastrophic failure modes.
On the positive side, there is no need to perform any maintenance or
testing once a failure has occurred.
Incandescent Bulbs
The designation and definition of incandescent bulbs, in regard to
Christmas lights, is problematic, given that at least two other forms
of illumination also use incandescent filaments, and because the word
"incandescent" is inconvenient both to write and to spell. For the
purposes of this paper, incandescents will be defined as being subject
to 120 volt electrical power requirements, and greater than 1 cm in
diameter in physical size. Sociologically, the devotees of
incandescents are considered to use "traditional" Christmas lights.
There are, in fact, two physical sizes of incandescents. The larger
are approximately 4 cm in length and about 2 cm in diameter. These
are generally 7 watt bulbs, and are referred to as "outside" lights,
although they may also be used on large displays in commercial
establishments indoors, particularly where the brightness of the
smaller incandescents would not be particularly noticeable. (See the
earlier note regarding the utility of Christmas light illumination.)
The smaller lights, usually known as "indoor" bulbs, are roughly 2.5
cm in length and a little over a centimetre in diameter. In both
cases the bulbs are something of a pear or teardrop shape.
(There are a number of variations on these basic models. Reflective
or refractive covers may be put around or behind the bulbs, and the
bulb sockets may support electrical appliances which run motors
creating mobile displays such as spinning carousels or teddy bears.
These additions do not affect the basic failure analysis model, and so
will not be considered here. A notable exception are "bubble lights,"
which use the heat of the bulb to create a continual cycle of
evaporation and condensation in a tube of a water/alcohol mixture.
Bubble lights are quite rare, and are usually stated to be an "ironic
statement in regard to kitsch" by those who are afraid to admit that
they really like them. However, we were unable to obtain sufficient
data on failure rates, particularly in regard to explosive failure, to
add them to the models under consideration.)
Christmas lights are arranged in sets of "strings," with bases
attached at intervals along a set of power cables. Incandescent bulbs
are wired in parallel, such that the failure of one bulb will not
cause the entire string to fail. However, the current draw along the
power cables, particularly given the practice of joining strings
together in one long string, requires that the cabling be of
significant density. (Outdoor bulbs are generally seven watts, and
are arranged in strings of twenty five bulbs. Therefore, a single
cable will be carrying 175 watts, or about 1.5 amps of current.
Outlining the eaves of a typical domicile will often require five
strings, placing a load of 7.5 amps at the base of the long string.
In situations where residents illuminate trees and bushes in the yard
as well, the current load can exceed this by a substantial margin.)
Therefore, incandescent strings are based on heavy gauge wire, with
correspondingly heavy insulation. (It should be noted that, despite
the identical power requirements, "indoor" and "outdoor" incandescent
bulbs have proportionately sized bases, ensuring that neither can be
used in the strings of the other, and requiring that replacements be
available for both sizes.)
Incandescent strings are therefore not subject to simple failures that
would occur in lighter equipment. They are, though, very difficult to
manipulate, store, and retrieve from storage. This ensures that bulbs
fail frequently due to mishandling during the manipulation process
known as "putting the lights up" or the corresponding "putting the
lights away." Some light practitioners have therefore undertaken to
putting lights (particularly outside lights) in place, and then
leaving them there. However, Christmas lights are, as noted, not
designed purely for illumination: they are coloured, so that the
ultimate effect of Christmas lights is similar to that of seeing a
multitude of different coloured Volkswagens in a parking lot. The
bulbs have been designed in two ways. The first applies colour as
coloured paint, ensuring that any bulbs left outside for long periods
of time become scratched by branches and thus become colourless. The
later design is to apply the colour with a film of plastic: this
design ensures that the film degrades with the "hot/cold" cycle that
is engendered by bulbs that are turned on for brief periods during
cold weather. The film eventually flakes off, again leaving the bulbs
with limited colour.
Minilights
Minilights use incandescent filaments, but are much smaller than the
more traditional incandescent bulbs. Minilight bulbs are roughly .5cm
in diameter and 2 cm in length. The bulbs sport two bare wires, and
must be mounted in a separate base before being placed in a string.
There is no difference whatsoever in size, form, or markings
regardless of whether minilight bulbs are 2 volt, 2.5 volt, 3, 3.5, 4,
5, 6, 7, 8, 10, or 12 volt, nor whether they are ordinary bulbs or
"flashers." (Flashing bulbs are known to trigger seizures in those
subject to epilepsy, and extreme agitation and annoyance in most of
the rest of the population, similar to the Netscape blink
tag, or following a Volkswagen for thirty two miles down the
freeway with the left turn flasher stuck on.) There is also no
particular indication that a bulb is dead, other than the fact that it
does not work. (Traditional incandescent bulbs are generally large
enough that the filament is visible to the naked eye, except, of
course, if the bulb is of the painted variety.) Despite the universal
nature of the bulb sizes, the bases for minilights vary from string to
string, and many strings will, in fact, have multiple incompatible
sizes of bases that must be used in the correct sockets along that
string.
Minilight bulbs are strung in series. A rough estimate of the voltage
requirement for a string may be obtained from the number of sockets,
but this is not a completely reliable indication. (Many strings are,
in fact, multiple strings, wired in parallel with each other.
Therefore, a failure may leave half the string usable, but use of such
a string is seen as an admission of failure of manhood (see above in
regard to gender roles in respect of Christmas lights).
Minilight bulbs, being strung in series, would be subject to complete
failure of a string if a single bulb were to burn out. The bulbs are,
therefore, designed such that the burning out of a bulb also creates a
"burn-through" in order to maintain the electrical circuit. As with
all religious practices there is an attendant element of randomness:
sometimes the burn-through works, and sometimes it doesn't.
Because of the universal size, bulbs of differing voltage may be used
in a single string, or bulbs of an inappropriate voltage may be used
in a string. When, for example, twelve volt bulbs are used in a
string wired for seven volt bulbs, the bulbs will work, although they
will burn very dimly. Seven volt bulbs may also be used in a string
wired for twelve volt bulbs. This practice is much more interesting.
Due to the higher temperature and stress, eventually a bulb will burn
out. However, due to the burn-through design, this will still leave
the rest of the string burning and will, in fact, increase the
brilliance of the illumination. This also increases the thermal
stress, though, and therefore an additional bulb will blow out in a
lesser period of time. After the failure of one or two more bulbs,
the whole string goes in rapid succession: in the words of one
observer, "like a string of firecrackers."
Because of the universal bulb size, the lack of differentiation
between live and dead bulbs, and the bulb burn-through design, failure
analysis of a string is problematic. There is the practice of
individually removing each bulb and socket, removing the bulb from the
socket, and replacing it with a bulb known to be good. This procedure
has been cited in the psychological literature due to its relation to
serious nervous conditions that result when the practitioner realizes
that he has been testing with a bulb that is actually dead, or
fruitlessly comes to the end of a test of several strings and realizes
that it was more than possible that multiple bulbs on the string were
dead. (This assessment is also complicated by the randomness of the
burn-through factor noted above.) Experienced practitioners (if they
escape the nervous conditions noted above) find that bulbs and sockets
must be individually removed, the bulb removed from the socket, and
tested by placing it into a socket of a string that is known to be
good. Frequently as many as a quarter of the bulbs on a string must
be replaced before the string becomes usable again, and even then a
number of bulbs can be identified as needing to be replaced for full
illumination. (As noted, complete illumination has no functional
purpose, but is practiced by the masters of the craft as a
prophylactic against string failure during the Christmas season.)
Light Ropes
Light ropes combine the failure characteristics of minilights with the
difficulty of manipulation of traditional incandescents, and add the
ease of maintenance of spy satellites (as opposed to, say, original
model Volkswagens). Also, many religious leaders hold them to be an
abomination and offence against nature.
LEDs
The latest technology in Christmas lights involves Light Emitting
Diodes, or LEDs. LEDs provide a much greater efficiency of conversion
of electricity to light than do other forms of lighting technology.
In addition, the manufacturers of LED Christmas light have chosen to
go the conservation route. Door and Window outlining of a typical
domicile can be achieved for the entire Christmas season (with the
lights left on 24 hours per day) for roughly the cost of a local call
on a pay phone (if you can find one, in these days of ubiquitous
cellular phones). Unfortunately, the level of illumination provided
is quite low: the entire light output of several strings is scarcely
enough to allow you to find your way around the inside of a
Volkswagen.
LEDs are wired in series, like minilights, and are designed with the
same burn-through technology. As well as being more efficient, LEDs
are also said to be more durable, although this, being a new
technology, has not been put to practical tests. Therefore, it is
felt that LED Christmas light strings will be longer lasting, and the
manufacturers boast of a five-year guarantee. This promise is marred
by only two considerations. The first is the low probability that the
manufacturers are in any danger of having to provide replacements for
such a low cost item. The second is the fact that the light strings
are also said to be resistant to a failure of a single bulb, but have
absolutely no provision for replacement: all bulbs are hardwired into
the string. If a second bulb goes, you are supposed to throw the
string away.
CONCLUSION
Given the failure characteristics of Christmas lights, the hypothesis
of religious observance (similar to penitential exercises seen in
other cases) must be supported, even in the complete absence of
evidence of a belief system.
The author wishes the readers a very Merry Christmas and a Happy New
Year. (Failing that, the author wishes the readers a very happy
Generic Mid-Winter Party Period.)
ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS
This work has been supported by research performed by Erichson
Engineering, the Vancouver Centre of Excellence of Honeywell Process
Solutions, and Gloria J. Slade.
P.S.: I hope you weren't offended by my parenthical (Is that even a word?) recognition of the two other holidays.
Close, but the word is parenthetical. :-)
Happy holidays to everyone.
It would be in LIRR speak.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Long-short-long-short.
Mark
A request for police assistance is:
long, short, long, short.
So C for cops and H (!?!) for route?
Someone who manufactures toxic waste. DUH! Toxic waste usually doesn't grow on trees.
The otherthing I wanted to mention was that lately, I live about a mile from where Amtrak's NEC tracks are. But lately, I'm able to hear the trains blasting their horns as they pass through the area. As afar as I know, there is no construction going on. I was wondering if anyone knew anything about it. The tracks pass through the Unionport/Parkchester area of the Bronx.
Metro-North fine-tunes new fleet
By CAREN HALBFINGER
(Original publication: December 24, 2003)
Metro-North fine-tunes new fleet
CROTON-ON-HUDSON Metro-North Railroad employees began unwrapping two big, shiny and costly gifts for commuters this week, but it will be another three months before riders get to try them.
The sleek, stainless-steel presents are the first two M7 trains, which will be joined by dozens more during the coming months as the railroad replaces its oldest trains.
From now through March, Metro-North will test-drive the new trains, checking for squeaks, leaks, missing parts and a smooth ride. Passengers who have been bouncing along on the shot springs of a 30-year-old M1 seat, or the caved-in seats of the 40-year-old ACMU 1100, hope the new trains at $1.8 million each deliver on their promise of improved travel.
"In a lot of the cars, you bounce and knock around,'' said Michael Crook, a Peekskill teaching assistant who was waiting for a Manhattan-bound train at the Croton-Harmon station on Monday. "A lot of them are either too cold or too hot. With all the money that you are paying, you need to ride in something comfortable. They better be good, for $1.8 million.''
Each train has two sets of air conditioners, so passengers shouldn't roast if one breaks down. The cooling equipment can be removed and replaced faster, getting trains returned to service more quickly and leaving fewer riders standing or steaming.
"That sounds good,'' said Diana Wilson, 32, who takes the train to White Plains from the Bronx and remembers the heat of every other train car during her commute last summer. "I hope it's better. You can see how worn out they are.''
Two hundred nearly identical trains are already in use on the Long Island Rail Road, where the fleet now runs an average of 300,000-plus miles without a breakdown. Tim McCarthy, Metro-North's director of equipment, expects Metro-North's much worse breakdown rate one every 70,000 miles to improve once the M7s replace the oldest trains.
The new trains house electrical equipment inside to keep snow and ice from causing equipment failure. Three different braking systems, instead of one, are intended to keep the trains moving longer between needed repairs.
Passengers who nod off during rides will find neck supports to keep them from dozing on their neighbors. McCarthy also claims the railroad has answered the prayers of many who dread a trip to the "Blue Lagoon." Bathroom visitors will find no odorous, electric blue liquid sloshing in the toilet. Instead, the toilets will operate much like those on airplanes, taking everything into a vacuum-sealed tank below the train.
For riders like Wilson, who avoid the short back of the aisle chair on three-seaters, it was good news to learn every M7 seat has a headrest. But riders who favor the fifth seat near the vestibule, the one with no facing seat and plenty of legroom, could be disappointed. The new trains have six facing seats, where even shorter customers will have to make an effort not to bump knees.
The trains also have fewer seats, and the train cars are 2 inches slimmer, which translates into a loss of less than an inch per seat.
Still, riders are looking forward to the improvements.
"Lessons have been learned the hard way,'' said Dennis Baum, a Mount Kisco resident who is a member of the Metro-North Commuter Council, which advises the railroad. "I only hope they maintain these trains. I think we were the conscience of the railroad, and they listened to their conscience. The complaint line may go out of business.''
I know what your talking about, but dont the trains blow their horn around their always. Are you near the Con ed plant almost right near the Bx22?
THe new M-7s are a change and they should look good in blue and silver. MN colors!!!
Yes yes, I know that bells and whistles are mandated by the FRA, but you know what I mean.
I'm no fan of BBD, but the M-7s are nice (albeit overweight). I'd love to have seen an updated version of the M-1 (ac traction, better trucks, interior upgrades), but they needed an all new design.
They nonetheless perform well (so far), even if the acceleration isn't much better. On paper the rates for the M-7 and M-1/3 are the same - 2.0mph/s. You just get lots of dead cars on the old stuff. Yes, the AC package is much smoother - no surprise there.
I'm guessing the LIRR will save big bucks with the braking system. A lot less wheel/brake wear to deal with. And I've noted the M-7s are less prone to flat spots, likely because of their superior braking control. And lower maintenance on the propulsion - no compartments full of contactors and cam switches to check, clean and adjust.
Of course, if it drops the costs of electric operation on LI - that's good, it'll encourage the LIRR to move towards a fully electrifies system, which they'll only end up doing sooner or later anyway. Ditto for MN.
What about using DMU trains on the north and south forks? I'm not certain electrification is viable east of Patchogue and maybe Yaphank on the Main Line. At least, not for the next 20 years or so. With the DMU trains, it might be the quickest way to increase service out there. Plus, they could possibly be a good reason to re-open some of the closed stations between Ronkonkoma and Riverhead. Places like Manorville, and Holbrook.
:0)
At any rate, it sounds like the M7'w will, in fact, be blue, they'll go to the Harlem only, the overcrowded New Haven will get the Harlem leftovers, and we'll just cram those old coaches 'till we can break 'em 'n push 'em off the Cos Cob drawbridge. Sigh.
I only remember looking out and seeing demolished third rail on the Harlem. Being Connecticut-centric, I assumed everything had pantographs stuck on it at some point. My mistake.
That is the place I'm talking about. I didn't realize they always blew the horn around there.
If that is so, I wonder why they usually would blow the horn in that area. There are no railroad crossings or anything that would force them to have to blow the horn.
But the past few days it seemed that the engineer was leaning on the horn as if someone or something was on the tracks. It didn't seem as if they were performing any track work in the area.
Do any of these situations apply to your post?
Someone want to clarify? Does he mean the LIRR's Fleet in General now has 300,000+ mile MDBF or Just the M7's? The M7's I think I could agree on, but not the rest of the fleet.
It's a fair comparison. It means the M7's will increase the overall average MDBF. If M7's MDBF were compared to those of ACMU's, M7's will look even better.
David
Recipe for Disaster. These are unmaintainable in a railroad environment.
The LIRR and its passengers appear to be quite pleased with the M7s bathrooms. Of course time will tell whether they need more or less maintenance.
Your blanket statement is false on its face. The question is whether effective design and technology have made vacuum toilets possible in this environment. So far, the answer is yes.
Other than that, why do you say they are un-maintainable? LIRR seems to do a pretty god job.
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/24/nyregion/24PATA.html
Ben F. Schumin :-)
I know what your talking about, but dont the trains blow their horn around their always. Are you near the Con ed plant almost right near the Bx22?
THe new M-7s are a change and they should look good in blue and silver. MN colors!!!
Yes yes, I know that bells and whistles are mandated by the FRA, but you know what I mean.
I'm no fan of BBD, but the M-7s are nice (albeit overweight). I'd love to have seen an updated version of the M-1 (ac traction, better trucks, interior upgrades), but they needed an all new design.
They nonetheless perform well (so far), even if the acceleration isn't much better. On paper the rates for the M-7 and M-1/3 are the same - 2.0mph/s. You just get lots of dead cars on the old stuff. Yes, the AC package is much smoother - no surprise there.
I'm guessing the LIRR will save big bucks with the braking system. A lot less wheel/brake wear to deal with. And I've noted the M-7s are less prone to flat spots, likely because of their superior braking control. And lower maintenance on the propulsion - no compartments full of contactors and cam switches to check, clean and adjust.
Of course, if it drops the costs of electric operation on LI - that's good, it'll encourage the LIRR to move towards a fully electrifies system, which they'll only end up doing sooner or later anyway. Ditto for MN.
What about using DMU trains on the north and south forks? I'm not certain electrification is viable east of Patchogue and maybe Yaphank on the Main Line. At least, not for the next 20 years or so. With the DMU trains, it might be the quickest way to increase service out there. Plus, they could possibly be a good reason to re-open some of the closed stations between Ronkonkoma and Riverhead. Places like Manorville, and Holbrook.
:0)
At any rate, it sounds like the M7'w will, in fact, be blue, they'll go to the Harlem only, the overcrowded New Haven will get the Harlem leftovers, and we'll just cram those old coaches 'till we can break 'em 'n push 'em off the Cos Cob drawbridge. Sigh.
I only remember looking out and seeing demolished third rail on the Harlem. Being Connecticut-centric, I assumed everything had pantographs stuck on it at some point. My mistake.
That is the place I'm talking about. I didn't realize they always blew the horn around there.
If that is so, I wonder why they usually would blow the horn in that area. There are no railroad crossings or anything that would force them to have to blow the horn.
But the past few days it seemed that the engineer was leaning on the horn as if someone or something was on the tracks. It didn't seem as if they were performing any track work in the area.
Do any of these situations apply to your post?
P.S.: I will be wearing a blue jacket that day (hooded).
Da Hui
Chuck Greene
I definitely have the money needed for the trip.
til next time
They never get what they really want for Christmas.
"Francisco Franco is still dead. His condition is not expected to change."
By the way, the Bilbao metro in Basque country is supposed t be pretty cool.
Mark
It's a light rail!!! Do you call this a Metro? Bilbos only has like 500,000 population, can hardly justify any big transit system. That said, I was impressed with the extent of the system given the sparse popylation.
Mark
That might have anti-evolutionary effects. Some study I read years ago correlated IQ to suicide rates, and it appears that if suicide would be made easier, evolution would favor stupid people who are less likely to commit suicide (although, stupid people are probably more likely to die from accidental death).
"Going to jail" is not a valid reason for suicide. It's a signal for the need to reform the criminal justice system.
"Terminal illness" might be a valid reason for suicide, but then it's not a suicide but an euthanaisia.
"Family troubles" is not a valid reason for suicide. It's a reason to seek professional help.
AEM7
Of course, having smart evil people killing themselves sooner rather than later might not be a bad thing, if you accept the premise of Jersey Mike's post. But that's not likely to happen.
Not surprising. It's been known for ages that certain mood disorders, e.g. Manic Depression, seem to be linked to intelligence and creativity, but also lead to suicide rates nearly twenty times that of unaffected people.
I am sure if you lead the way, others will follow.
So what happened? Specifically, I am very interested in what made you decide not to, and why Waterways ferry was your chosen method. I would have thought a drowning type suicide is fairly uncomfortable, and is probably something even sad and depressed people would rather avoid. I would guess that overdosing and staged accidents are the more popular methods.
This is especially apropos on Christmas Eve, because I have read and heard that more people commit suicide between Christmas and New Year's Day than any other time of year.
Adults should never be blindly trusted. Children should make their own decisions, based on their intelligence. If an adult's behaviour seems suspect, they should be challenged and asked to explain themselves.
Better not let that bigot Ron see your post.
You have read and heard wrong.
Allan's zinger was appropiate and well played. As the Lethal Weapon movies taught suicide is funny and is fair game for related tomfoolery.
I nearly commited suicide myself last year, coming very close to jumping off a NY Waterways ferry.
First let me say, "ahhhhhh, SO CLOSE!"
Second, that is a really dumb way to think of killing yourself. Drowning isn't very fun and the chance of actually killing yourself is pretty low compared to like jumping off a tall building or laying down on the railroad tracks. Your method choice probably reflected a subconsious desire to live, so it was probably at least in your best interest that you didn't go through with it. I suggest you find some friends you can talk with and not rely on makeing a nussiance of yourself on public forums.
Of course this all hinges upon the fact that your little story there was truthful and not just another attempt to leach sympathy off the good people of Subtalk.
Regards,
Jimmy
This is even further OT, but . . .
The New Yorker published an odd but fascinating article a while back about suicides on the Golden Gate Bridge. The bridge authorities have resisted installing a fence above the (low) guardrail on the walkway due to aesthetic concerns and also because they too seem to think that people "will do it anyway."
One interesting point from the article: It turns out that most suicide attempts on the Golden Gate are responses to temporary difficulties in life, so if an attempt is foiled or becomes too difficult, most jumpers won't try again.
Someone want to clarify? Does he mean the LIRR's Fleet in General now has 300,000+ mile MDBF or Just the M7's? The M7's I think I could agree on, but not the rest of the fleet.
It's a fair comparison. It means the M7's will increase the overall average MDBF. If M7's MDBF were compared to those of ACMU's, M7's will look even better.
David
Recipe for Disaster. These are unmaintainable in a railroad environment.
The LIRR and its passengers appear to be quite pleased with the M7s bathrooms. Of course time will tell whether they need more or less maintenance.
Your blanket statement is false on its face. The question is whether effective design and technology have made vacuum toilets possible in this environment. So far, the answer is yes.
Other than that, why do you say they are un-maintainable? LIRR seems to do a pretty god job.
Lay off Unca Kev......he's still shoveling snow from that Dec. 6th blizzard !
Bill "Newkirk"
You never amaze to cease me !
Bill "Newkirk"
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I hope they don't try to hijack any trains.:)
How about this one Steve?
MOOOOOO! :-)
Stop trying to show you have a grip on popular culture. You fail miserably at it.
"Mr. Brodsky, chairman of the Assembly's Corporations, Authorities and Commissions Committee, has been holding hearings for months examining whether favoritism plays a role in contracting, particularly in the many state authorities and commissions, like the Port Authority. His committee disclosed that Mr. D'Amato had been paid $500,000 to make one phone call resulting in a contract from the Metropolitan Transportation Authority for a client."
But favoritism SHOULD play a role in contracting. Especially over small contracts like the one under discussion here ($800,000 per year versus $690,000 per year). If experience and favoritism did not play a role, the operations would become a riot, especially when the newcomer recognizes that they can't make the expected profit and start to cost-cut in the way that adheres to the letter but not the spirit of the contract.
A recommendation influencing the selection of a low bidder is one thing. This is something else.
Alfonse d'Amato doesn't know. Neither do I. Neither does the Port Authority, frankly speaking. When you are administering a contract bid, all you see is what the contractor puts on paper. And you have no idea what will happen once the contractor is let in. So changing contractor always involve a degree of risk.
The PANYNJ really had no reason to throw out the incumbent, since their service is satisfactory (there has been no press reports of poor performance) and their costs are not "sky" high -- a difference of 20% in the value of a multi-year contract really isn't very significant, considering that you need a long-term relationship with the contractor and you definitely don't want one that bid too aggressively and ends up with either cost overruns or bankruptcy.
Whether Mr D'Amato knows or otherwise, is irrelevant to the discussion. The PANYNJ reversed a decision which in their view may damage the integrity of their operations. They're being far sighted about possible risks associated with a contract transision.
Merry Christmas to all you Subtalkers out there.
The person was wearing jeans, and that's about all I remember. I was wearing a heavy blue jacket and had a big blue big wit me, and Emfinate was wearin...uh...idk. If it was anyone here, plz say so.
Mark
Mark
Chuck Greene
My goals in 2004 is to get to ride the T in Boston, and the CTA.
Chuck Greene
Do it, Chuck. You'll be glad you did.
Chuck Greene
Mark
We kind of figured that, based on the "limo" you hired for your wedding :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
My most recent railfanning experience was brief, as a semi-invalid railfan who lives at the Jersey Shore asked me about the switcher in the background of a photo of two UP GE's in Pavonia Yard, Camden, that I took on Monday. So on Tuesday I went back to get better shots of the switcher, and got this NS GP38-2, as well.
Bob
Argh! Welcome "sight". (But they are welcome on your "site" also).
I'm working on my granddaughter.
Yea, I havent' seen as many girls as I used to since college. It sure is a sight to be seen. :)
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
You people may actually spot me on Saturday's MOD trip
Chuck Greene
Or maybe the lights flicker on R142s?
Just a wild guess. I'm out of the stalking business:)
Bill "Newkirk"
Wow, my life is sad. =)
This Is What I live For...
;-)
*with apologies to (1)SouthFerry(9) if he's gone ahead and copyrighted this term.
And if seeing a woman who enjoys trains wasn't such a major news item, there might be more of them.
This thread is hilarious though.
What's a Raiifan?
And where is the PROFF?!
:0)
Da Hui
Dont doubt, trout!
1Documentarian9
Didn't the number 1 get rerouted out to Brooklyn after September 11th?
I wish I could show you on MapQuest's aerial images, but they no longer have aerial images.
As far as I know, the tracks end just before entering the main part of the village of Monroe. I *think* the tracks go as far as the bridge over Maple Avenue. But they definitely don't go past that point, because two roads nearly converge there where the tracks would be, but there are no tracks.
When the hell did mapquest take the arial image section off?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I wish I knew. They've taken away a lot of the functions that MapQuest used to have. You can't make the maps bigger now, you can't move the star on the map, and when getting driving directions you can't choose if you want the shortest route, the fastest route, or a route that avoids highways.
I've e-mailed them about this, but I keep getting some kind of computer-generated response.
About a week ago, I think. When they completely revamped their site.
NJ Transit did not abandon that service, nor did Metro-North (the official operator of commuter service). Conrail abandoned the line and switched the commuter service to the Graham Line. Besides, as reports go, Middletown for one wanted the railroad out of the center of town – and from the looks of things in Otisville and the encroachment on the old ROW, that town is also happy to have the railroad out of the center of town. Conrail, I am sure, was happy to have one less line to maintain and pay taxes on (they owned the line and NY State still charges taxes on ROW).
The old main line, however, did not end at Middletown. The line paralleled the Graham Line at Howells, then split off again to go through the center of Otisville, and went over the mountain instead of through the tunnel. The Graham Line ended at Guymard Junction. (The Graham Line is about 6½ miles longer than the old Main, but the grades are nowhere near as steep – certainly that was yet another factor in Conrail’s decision to abandon.)
I don't think anyone will say he did the "erong" thing!!!
Everyday the media paints a very stereo-typical image of the black man. And everyday, people carry with them that stereo-typical image that keeps people from distancing themselves from them.
Racism won't stop until the people on top decides to put an in to it. Unfortunately, there is too much money to loose putting an end to racism.
Wow, your post is about as silly as archingtrolleypole's. While I don't believe Goetz was right in shooting the kids as his life wasn't threatened, I can hardly call those kids "poor black helpless indivduals". They were PUNKS out to intimidate people on that train!!!
And what media are you talking about? When I turn on the TV I see nothing but very respectable black anchormen & women, respectable black talk show hosts, and one black situation comedy after another. I've yet to see stereotyped step n fetch it, tap dancing, Amos & Andy, servant type blacks that you saw in movies 50 years ago in any recent time media. And the few stereotypical black characters on TV such as Fred Sanford was SATIRE.
["Racism won't stop until the people on top decides to put an in to it. Unfortunately, there is too much money to loose putting an end to racism."]
No, racism won't stop until reverse racists like you get off their soapboxes.
Once upon a time there was a guy running down 31st Street carring a bank bag of some sort, and another guy chasing him yelling "stop thief" So I tried to block the guy, he bounced off a glass plate window and almost broke the darn thing (and that was one of *my* buildings, and so I was worried about the glass!)
He got away from me, but the firefighters in the firehouse heard the comomotion, and did tackle the guy. They asked me why I wanted him, I said, I didn't, this guy did. Seems the Perp had grabbed off a payroll for some company. The firefighters took the parties into the firehouse and closed the door.
Later the cops asked me about it, and I couldn't even tell them what color the perp was. I just didn't notice. It was a male person. what more can I say about it.
So... If I were in a position were I had to defend myself, I certainly would not consider what color the perp was: I would do the defence bit and ask questions later.
Elias
Society is so bad to our black youths, so often times, I don't blame them when they do wrong. They are often outcasted before they come out of the woman's womb. Told that they are thieves, put in dysfunctional schools, not given the opportunities that their ancestors fort for.
If I was Mayor, the first thing I would do is fire all the teachers and administrators from these dysfunctional schools, and hire new one. I will mostly hire teachers and administrators from the community, as is not the case today. There will be a lot of kinship involve because this faculty body will feel that they are contributing to themselves.
In other words, what I'm saying, it must start in the school and eventually it would trickle down to the society. Our youths are suffering; particularly the black children.. However, since there are a lot of hateful people in the world, the manner goes unresolved.
Someone could lose an eye with one of those, that's what. In fact, I don't think you should even be talking about them.
That reminds me of an episode of (was it Twilight Zone? Outer Limits?) in which a dude wishes that all the evil people in the world would be destroyed.
He didn't wake up the next day.
My children aren't Mulatto. Mulatto is an offensive term meaning mule: White and Animal. It was a term given to children who have a black parent, usually a woman.
My children are black, because although I'm Cacasion, my spirit is black. I have a warm, nuturing kind of spirit. I do not prejudge, I look at people base on a person's character as martin luther king did.
We must take responsibility for what we did to black people. We must understand that the problem they face, is of our own doing. If it wasn't for slavery, they would probably be a much different people. We have screwed their culture up, and now we are complaining that they are criminals. that's funny! Isn't america a criminal enterprise - formed and stole from the people who originated here?
We are wrong, but the spirit of God almighty will have to bring this to light.
You just did.
Oh, for Christ's sakes, that smacks of the ridiculous Sun People/Ice People theory, which had the singular distinction of being both racist and psychobabble.
nice
Eventually, the truth will be brought out of the shadows, and mankind will be set free from the evil system of captalism and white supremacy. Unfortunately, we will all have to wait a few years before this happens.
This is one of the signs of the apocalypse.
Don't you remember when you called E_DOG a GOD? That makes you COPROTHEIST: Someone who worships shit.
But then that means you worship yourself too.
Yes, it's a comparison to prove my point.
You have issues my "friend"...
Sounds right to me. But remember in that era that everyone (the media, your friends, even some police spokesmen) encouraged you not to get involved. Remember they used to say "just give a robber your money--what's more important to you, your money or your life?"
But this didn't work, because it emboldened robbers.
I'd like to think that's true, but I have my doubts. The never-fight-back mentality is so ingrained in our society that many people will find themselves unable to resist even when the situation may be one of life or death,
That's already been proven untrue. Even in fear, people make a logical (even if incorrect) assessment of the course of action they think will best result in self-preservation. The people in the first three planes on 9/11 thought that there best chance of personal survival was to not rile the hijackers. The people on the fourth plane realized what their fate would likely be and took action.
Another historical example is the Warsaw Ghetto. The Nazis controlled and ultimately murdered most of Europe's Jewish population by creating an atmosphere that going along meant survival. People put aisde their fears in the hope they might survive until after the war, if they didn't resist, if they kept their paperwork up-to-date, even that if they boarded the trains for "relocation" they would really be going to a labor camp and not death.
When the people in the Warsaw Ghetto realized that were probably doomed anyway, they fought back. Most died anyway, but they took a lot of Nazis with them.
Wasn't Slavery and Colonization.. Which unfortunately is happening in IRAQ now, the deed of the DEVIL? YES IT IS!!!
I'll be happy to give you $100 ... so long as you spend it on a vasectomy.
And remember, ideas are not genetic. You have to block someone from being able to adopt.
That's an outmoded notion, dating back to the days of the one-drop rule, under which any black ancestry whatsoever automatically made you black even if you looked completely Caucasian. People today, especially younger people, are more likely to see racial identity as a continuum rather than a set of discrete categories. What's helping it along is that fact that there are more and more people today who do not fall neatly into any of the traditional categories.
Black is the dominate gene.. And that's why when I had children they automatically fit into the category of black. Even their birth certificates are signed "BLACK" (THE FIRST PEOPLE- THE ORIGINAL PEOPLE OF THE PLANET).
I do not dislike myself.. I dislike what my people represent.. which is evil and destruction. But I have hope for us, because I have Faith in GOD almighty.
I do not dislike myself.. I dislike what my people represent.. which is evil and destruction. But I have hope for us, because I have Faith in GOD almighty.
You may have faith in God, but God undoubtedly thinks you're a schmuck.
My son is one of them. He's Latino/Irish/German Jew. Only in America ...
I also don't know if somebody has pointed this out elsewhere. But remember: Goetz deliberately put himself into a situation where he could be robbed or assaulted. He did so by riding in the end car of a train passing through a rough neighborhood, during off hours.
Common sense says that if you don't want to be messed with, stay away from the perps' known areas of operation as much as possible. Back in those days, unfortunately, those areas included deserted subway cars. The fact that Goetz was white, and of small build, just made him an even more "attractive" target.
I'm a black man who lives in Baltimore. There are certain neighborhoods here that I wouldn't dare visit alone after dark - and they're all predominantly black. (20 years ago, however, the isolated Hampden area of north-central Baltimore was very dangerous for blacks 24/7...this white working-class community was fiercely racist and made damn sure everybody knew it. As late as 1989, black families who moved into Hampden's fringes faced harassment. During the '90s, however, Hampden was yuppified, hon, and the old bigots began to disappear.) I know where the "hot spots" are, and unlike Goetz, I stay away. When in New York I avoid the "hot spots" at night - not only Harlem and, say, ENY, but also Howard Beach and Bensonhurst.
Surprisingly, I've yet to see mention in this thread of the gentlemen in Howard Beach and Bensonhurst who decided to do their own kind of "crimefighting". Fortunately, the perps in those cases faced proper justice (however minimal in some instances).
This is such a racist remark. Are you sure you are black? My wife happens to be black and although she isn't a black man, she would be offended by this comment.
Black women and black males are more prom to Black violence then anyone else. So it is facinated to me that you would single out white "skinny" men.
I don't care if you are black or white... Your comments are bias towards my black children which I had with my black wife. And it just makes me sicker to know that you feel like this about your own people.
Coward, your childern are mulatto, and you should be proud of that.
Coward, your childern are mulatto, and you should be proud of that.
I look forward to your "Best Of" album... ;-)
If I had been drinking milk while reading what you wrote, I would have blown it all out of my nose.
"Token" blacks? Is this your way of getting the thread back on topic?
Sorry, I have to disagree with you this one time. This thread is hilarious. I even think we should thank arcingcatenary for starting it.
I disagree with CC LOCAL all the damn time. When he posts something inoffensive and well-wishing, I still disagree, but not this time.
This thread is hilarious. I even think we should thank arcingcatenary for starting it.
I don't see that the thread is funny, but N Broadway Line is a few cards short of a full deck (few meaning 52).
Sometimes we need a diversion.
After the Crown Heights riot, some in the Hasidic community sued the city on the basis that they failed to protect people despite the fact that there were many calls to the 911. They might have had a case, since they claimed they were more or less shrugged off by the police dispatchers and the tapes of the 911 calls for (IIRC) three days were "accidentally" erased.
The center of the City's response to the suit was that there was no particular obligation on the part of the City to protect people from being crime victims. This was a fascinating defense, IMO, because it goes way beyond the "the department was overburdened, police can't be everywhere" defense you might have expected. It more or less implied that police protection is a service the City provides as a courtesy.
Mayor Giuliani settled the case out of court, which is kind of unfortunate, because the results of the suit could have had far-reaching consequences, no matter which way it went.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
www.forgotten-ny.com
If anyone else thinks that I am a "evil racist bigot" go ahead.I will LMAO HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!
You seem to perceive everything through the lens of race, ethnicity or religion. You are soooooooooooooooo etnnocentric, man.
Let's face it, CC. Threads like this reflect the fact that we have too much free time. ;-)
When I see fan trip pictures in which all the blacks flock to one car, all the whites to another, all the latinos to another, all the asians..., etc., etc., then I'll start to get upset.
People are their behavior.
Thankfully, you sound far more reasonable than most.
I'd say that all talk of generations is way overblown. Saying that all people born in a certain time period act the same - or even that most of them so - is just overgeneralizing.
My generation contained some of the best and the worst. It was like other generations, but more so.
The WWII generation got handed a bad deal of the cards .. the Great Depression followed by WWII ... gee, it didn't get better than that! ;-) But after WWII was completed their nests were probably better feathered than any other to date. GI benefits which virtually invented the middle class of Ozzie and Harriet, including cheap mortgages and paid tuition and subsistence at any college in the nation they could qualify for. They may have been the last generation to be able to count on lifetime jobs in unions or with big companies with benefits and retirement ... they voted themselves huge and increasing benefits from Social Security equal to 7x and more what they put in.
Yes, my generation is full of self-centered, self-righteous and grasping individuals who have overseen huge declines in the nation's social structure, but we have also had those who have tried to bring back both the physical and social stability that existed before mid-20th century. The Veterans from my generation were sent to war by The Greatest Generation and then spat upon and short-changed of not only the benefits, but the honor that their generation took for granted.
But what accomplishments do you think Baby Boomers take credit for that WWIIers did?
The civil rights movement for one (Most of it's leaders were of the WWII generation).
That's another myth which baby boomers continue to cling to.
This album, is also a work in progress as I am working on rescanning many of my slides that my old scanner scanned dark. The photos near the end of the album are the newest ones added replacing some of the dark scans that now scan well with my new scanner. I am having trouble with imagestation though reordering them to fit with their stations in order, as it keeps telling me there are "errors on the page", and then won't let me resort them. I'm working on it.
MARGE FOREVER!
Merry Christmas to all of you out there.
Oops,
now
I
did
it.
This
thread
will
never
end
now!!!
I'm not talking about the Daily News, or the New York TIme.. I'm talking about books that are written by progressive white and black authors. Try the Mother Jones magazine: http://www.motherjones.com/ as a resource to these authors.
I am a follower of noam Chomsky philosophy and am a member of the greens party. I support IRish and Black causes because I am human.
Whether it is promoted by a white person or black person. (I have yet to see a black person who was racist - although I have experienced some prejudices from blacks).
Most of the prejudices is a response to the racism that they have received. It is a reaction, not a system or ideology.
Me and my wife are very politically sophisticated and know the difference from teaching racism to teaching our children about values.
Hah, I highly beg to differ. What about some of the black teenagers who go to Brandeis High School a few blocks away from me. When I get out of school and I get out of the train at 86th Street, I see with my very own eyes (not any of this racism distorted perception bullshit you'll claim) some kids eyeing me, making faces at me, pointing, or doing something else. Of course, if a black teen were to get off the subway, nothing would happen, because I've seen it too. Your points are very untrue, and you need to wake up and view NYC as a whole and not your little perfect inter-racial utopian family.
Me and my wife are very politically sophisticated
Yet you apparently never heard of Louis Farrakhan or Khalid Muhammad.
You seem to be one of the most racist among us. You call others racists for their beliefs about one incident (if they disagree with your beliefs). Yet, at the same time you define your own children by their race. How would you feel if a neighbor said to you, "Your half-black kid broke my window."? He'd be a racist, right? So what, then does that make you? How would they feel to know that their father defines them as, "my 1/2 black kid" or "my white kid?"
I have a few suggestions for you. First - consider the possibility that there is more than one correct opinion about Mr. goetz. Second - realize that not everyone who disagrees with you is as racist as you are. Third and finally, you are not competant enough to deal with a complicated social issue like race relations with the intelligence that it demands. Stick to trains.
Just like you have a right to call me a racist (I don't know how that can be, since I am a man of Caucasian stock), I have a right to point out your evils towards the FIRST PEOPLE.
My children look black, maybe one day I will post the pictures up on subtalk. (This is the fear) Black is dominate over white.. white is recessive... which means, anyone born to a black parent is almost classified as black. From hair to skin color and facial features. I might not be an anthropologist, but I'm know what I see.
Anyway, to answer your question, if a neighbor accused my son or daughter for breaking a window, I want to know if it was racial. I live in a non black area in New York...(ASTORIA) and I most surely would say it would be racism. Luckily I do not have neighbors like that... But thanks for bringing the question forward.
OK, let's take you for an example. Let's say irish Catholics had their own skin color...blue. So assuming that you're pure irish Catholic, if you married a jewish woman and you two had kids; if the kid ended up being blue, no matter what, the kid would be ONE HALF irish catholic and ONE HALF jewish. Assuming the kid has children of his own, let's say he or she marries a muslim person. The child of your kid COULD be blue, but in fact would be 1/4 irish catholic, 1/4 jewish, and 1/2 muslim. As you would go down the chain, the skintone may be still there, but the true ethnicity would not. Point is looks can be deceiving. Your black children's true ethnicity is ONE HALF african-american, and if they marry someone who isn't african-american, their children will no matter what be ONE QUARTER african-american, no matter what the skintone may be. You're playing a stupid little game here on who's black who's white and all this crap.
Now go crawl into your hole and die.
Your point of view has either been completely repudiated by every other participant of this thread or it's been ignored completely by the rest. It's now time to reconsider your position and give it a rest. Even you must realize that you are not changing any minds or winning any points here.
If I am one thing, I am pretty balance in my opinions concerning white and black issues.
Oy Vey. That poor lil'... My heart goes out to that child. You have to wonder what he's in for...guilt trips, being made ashamed of what he is, the "example" of the "EVIL ONES", "well, you don't have it as bad as my OTHER children...no SOUP for YOU!". My mind reels at the indignities this child will have to endure.
I hope that child isn't made to feel bad about himself. But considering your take on things I ain't too hopeful. See, it's a shameful sick thing for you to do, to categorize these children as you do. You must think you're SO much better then your fellow brothers and sisters that you can think of them as white children and black children.
WHY DON'T YOU JUST SAY YOU HAVE FOUR CHILDREN??!! You, my brother, are the RACIST. So all your scolding and judging is just plain nonsense. You been outed.
What you don't understand (if you already do), we live in a code system. One white and One black. Those who fall under the white category are given priveleges, those who fall under the black category are given low wage jobs, incarceration, low performing school, public housing concentration camps, and the list is endless.
Yes! One of my son's is white.. and he was born knowing that he can access any opportuntity he wants. But my black children find life very different.. usually prejudge.. and excluded from accessing benefits that they need.
Dang it, ya made me read the post I didn't want to see for reference purposes! I hear you, although I think I chose my handle first. Look, (to get it back on topic somewhat), we're all riders on this here train. I just can't stand when some folk try to make me feel bad about who, and what, I am. This fellow sees racists under every tree.
Really though, how serious can you take anyone who glibly spouts "Oh, but I MARRIED A BLACK WOMAN, AND HAVE BLACK CHILDREN. SEE, I'M NOT RACIST!"?
I wouldn't want my sister to marry one of...him.
Was your wife artificially inseminated with a black man's sperm? Unless the answer is "yes," you do not have black children. Sorry dude.
Wrong! You children look racially mixed. I'll bet they look very different from a person who is truly black, for example a recent immigrant from Nigeria.
How do you associate with those losers?
"I can help."
"Good."
Party at my house when this happens, drinks on me.
That notwithstanding, I see "some" posters here who are trying very hard to LOSE the human race. ;-)
Ooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.
When he got home, he looked up his Petersen's to see what kind of goose has a call "Ho ho ho."
Sheeee. It. Nah, I don't play that way. I yam what I yam. It's just that, occasionally, I'm drawn to O.T. posts. My opposite here is a troubled, screwy soul. I'd bet money, or weed, that my erstwhile brother never really had any, uh, "black friends". Who could trust a guy like that? I've lived around "others than white" all my life. The one thing to remember is, most of us Americans are looking to live the American life. So it don't do nobody any good to interface with friends and neighbors with a so-called righteous belief system, or being seen as, what, "sympathetic" to what you might perceive as that other persons background and history. It's plain insulting and condensating to them. It's you pre-judging that other persons capabilities and intelligence, so you yourself can think: "Golly, I'm SUCH a good person!!" That only shows you to be a foole. Who would want to be a friend to someone who "has me ALL figured out"? I would say, eff you, man. You don't know me, or what I can do. Piss off.
I can just imagine certain conversations about him that go on behind his back:
"You know that white boy married a sister? You gotta hear this boy talking."
"You know, he one of those crackers that just GOTTA prove that, heh heh, he LIKE us!"
I'm through with this thread. It's been fun, but it's dragging out my mean side. And I ain't gonna let that continue. Thank you for listening.
That's all I care about, but you seem to be stretching it further.
my 2 cents.
tim
Actually, that's an excellent example. The people on the airliner had every reason to believe that staying calm and keeping low was the best course of action, based on what had happened in almost all previous hijackings. The hijackers used an old Nazi tactic--be reassuring ("go along with us and you won't be hurt") at the same time that you're placing people in mortal danger.
That ruse would not work again.
"After work all day
I ride the "A"
Four thugs with screwdrivers come my way
And so I say
Go for it, suckers ! And make my day !"
- Bernhard Goetz
I like my boss's explanation of what happened :
This poor man was sitting by himself in the corner of a subway car fiddling with his gun, which wasn't working. These four nice boys with screwdrivers just happened to notice him, and were kind enough to offer him help to repair his gun, when, unfortunately, the gun went off, killing some of the boys, and crippling the others.
The press unjustly and luridly labeled Goetz as a "subway gunman" when he was an electrical engineer by profession. He did NOT make a career of shooting at people in the subway, rather, he shot in self-defense.
Archingtrolleypole.....ROFLMAO !!!
You funny Mr. Jeff.
Bill "Newkirk"
Yes you most certainly did. Off-topic/harassing posts, by definition, inflame the forum. You and the rest of the complete morons that can't comprehend the meaning of "please stick to rapid/rail transit issues only" should be banned from this place, IMO.
That's a good technical answer, but the fact that this was on the subway is very relevant to the case, to the times ('80s) and actually is on topic for this forum.
Goetz's defense entailed the fact that, even though the potential weapons were not displayed, the people who approached Goetz put him in a situation that a knowledgable subway rider OF THE ERA knew was implicitly threatening in a situation he could not escape. The usual "reasonable man" reactions of ignoring the request or turning and walking away were restricted by the setting.
If Goetz had been approached in similar fashion by a single individual on the street, I think he would have been convicted. But the mixed-race jury in this case found him guilty only of illegal firearm possession.
As a former policeman, let me ask you a simple question. If a single person approaches you on the street, displays no weapon and asks you for an inappropriate amount of money (panhandlers did not ask for $5 in 1984) that is one circumstance. But suppose you were approached by two individuals, also no weapon showing, but the second person walks behind you while the first accosts you. Would you think something different was going to happen than in the first instance?
The Goetz case forced the City to confront an issue that they chose to ignore for a long time--the fact that the subway was considered an especially menacing place and that they could no longer simply pay lip service to riders' fears. Goetz saw that menace, but that is irrelevant, since he was apparently short a few screws, no matter what else he was or wasn't. But the jury also felt that menace, and that is what acquitted him.
I see you've been busy with Photoshop (unless you can't take credit for this one :-)
It would be very interesting to see how an identical case would play out today. Would the subway's greater perceived safety make a jury less likely to accept a self-defense claim?
But at least it clearly shows what the majority of white america are...
It makes me so embarassed to be white..
You're despicable. You must live with terrors so severe they've stilted your emotional growth. What happended man, you done got punked when you were a kid so this is how you've dealt with it? Are you thinking to yourself "Oh pleeeeeeaaaaassseee don't hurt me!!!! See how I've changed who I am in order to appease your obviously superior self?? Please please I'm one of the good ones oh please don't hurt me!!! See how I've sold my ancestry and heritage down the river like they were sewerage to be disposed of?? See how cowardly a man I've allowed myself to become in comparison to your much more manly selves?? See how I'll do anything, even with MY OWN FLESH AND BLOOD, to make YOU feel good...and to show how less of a natural man I am??"
Oh, I'm sick of guys like you. Self-hating fools. Be a man and be what you are. Don't ruin your childrens lives by being an apologetic little mousey man.
I hereby PLONK you. And you can kiss my big fat (but attractive) pale-skinned be-hind.
So change your race.
Hey, Michael Jackson did it.
You are?
It's never OK to kill. But killing is not always murder.
Speaking about putting people on my Killfile for protecting and encouraging racist views, I would have to put 95 percent of the people on this board on my Killfile. So many times I try to ignore the bigotry that is on these threads, however, this one just went too far.
I do not look for trouble, I try to encourage people to see both sides of the story. But if you have been receiving a silver spoon in your mouth just for being white, it does not surprise me that there is this kind of reaction.
Common sense should tell you that when it comes down to everyone getting the same equal treatment, whites will opt out. Because "they" know by giving up these privileges will put "them" at a disadvantage.
Just look at the recent Supreme Court ruling on affirmative action. It's illogical and patently unconstitutional, but not even Supreme Court justices can get past this issue.
BTW, I haven't heard it in months. Maybe I haven't been there at the right time? It seems to me I've only heard it during really crowded rush hours. Which leads me to a question-
Is this message triggered by someone at a video monitor of the escalators? (Like in PATH, where if you light a cigarette in a station you almost immediately hear a recorded smoking ban message played over the station PA system?)
Oh hey, neat. I bet that's automatic, too. I once proposed that as a project in school (as an automatic device for scaring off smokers from around building entrances) - there's a variety of flame detectors that are remarkably sensitive. They're vacuum tubes made by some Japanese firm (I have the data sheet somewhere), and they can pick up a lit cig lighter in a brightly lit room from a far away distance. No problem. I bet that's what PATH uses. Only would need two to cover the smaller PATH stops..
The question is, when will this feasibility study be completed & will NJ Transit provide this new service, if so, what will be the terminus of service in Philadelphia.
Also, is it true that NJ Transit will be taking over the Clocker service from Amtrak by 2006 or sooner.
Chuck Greene
A plan is in effect for NJT to take over Clocker service. The question as to whether such service will terminate in Trenton or extend to Philly has been answered definitively on railfan messageboards with both answers. I have yet to see an official statement.
What you're talking about, one might as well cut out the middleman and ride in an ambulance.
So we got all of these security notices from Tom Ridge and from the Governor...
And as I said *we do have an airport*...
But the most expensive artifact on the grounds is a windsock.
Security precautions here means buzzing the field a few times to chase the cows off. (MOO). And if you want fuel, you'd better be able to call a fuel truck from another city.
It is a grass runway, and we AIN'T COMING OUT TO MOVE THE SNOW FOR YOU!
On the other hand, we *do* have an airport, and so we (in the City of Richardton) are exepmt from paying the COUNTY AIRPORT TAX.
Elias
Planes actually do land there once every coupple of years or so.
And Yes, a biplane *did* land here several years ago. It was part of some sort of barnstorming exposition celebrating the invention of "Air Mail", and it was an official US Mail filght complete with stamps and postmarks, and carring a mailbag full of letters about the state.
One of the physicians with whom we do business was involved with this and we have a photo of him standing by the biplane, though not at this stop.
Elias
Air mail was invented about two miles from where I'm sitting right now. The first flight was from Philadelphia to Camden, via autogyro.
In case people may wonder what was the object of flying mail across the Delaware River, it was significant because the bridges had not been built yet.
Was the mail enroute to the Prussian consulate in Siam?
My main resolutions are:
To get to Boston to ride the T
And to get to Chicago to see the CTA first hand.
I'm going to work real hard to reach those goals. Especially riding the T in Boston before they knock down the El around North Station.
As far as the CTA, I'm going to put it in a package deal with seeing up-close and personal, "The Jerry Springer Show", just to see how real that freak show is.
So starting next year's pay period, money is going to be put away on these projects, since these trips will take multiple days.
What do you think?
1. ride an ACMU express train (see my current post about that)
2. ride everything in Boston
3. ride everything in Pittsburgh
4. finish riding everything in Philadelphia
5. ride the entire New York City subway system on one fare, and make a legitimate run for the "record"
6. be on the first (D) over the mannyB in February
7. be on the first (N) over the mannyB in February
8. ride a New York Bus Service fishbowl
9. ride whatever Operational Engineer II is driving/operating/piloting/steering/controlling
10. take advantage of CityTicket, especially for riding the railfan window of LIRR M-1/3 trains under Atlantic Av (and record a video of it).
I may think of more items later...
Chuck Greene
I resolve never to make any News Years Resolutions.
Never fails !!
Bill "Newkirk"
1. Stop complaining about the BMT/IND
2. Go back to the IRT
3. Work the #7 Line
Ride an ACMU 1100!!!
Ride the LIRR out to Patchogue
Trip on the Downeaster
Amtrak trip on the Cap Limited
It's a beautiful station with a spacious, bright waiting area, but needs some more amenities such as a coffee bar. My only real criticism is why there are no direct stairs between the Hoboken tracks (lower level) and the NE Corridor tracks (upper level). Everyone is forced to go up and then go down when transferring. This adds time to any transfer. Why was the station designed this way?
A very positive note - the electronic destination and train info signs were very clear and informative.
What do you think?
I do support some sort of rise-considerably-above-the-surroundings building or other kind if structure, but the designs proposed so far are just not to my tastes...
Ben F. Schumin :-)
On one hand, it might be alittle creepy occuping the same site. But more importantly, are you going to build some small homogenous building because some [political correct censor activated] might target the thing? It's a monument to itself and a symbol, like the towers of Kuala Lumpor. An analogy could be, should I buy the plasma tv, what if some drug addict breaks in?
Anyway, this is how I've always felt, i never liked the "let's back down and build some buildings that are smaller with no presense". A city is defined by it's skyline, no matter the size of it's spawl.
The fact is that buildings higher than 60-70 stories are uneconomic -- the pillars and elevators have to take up too much space. The WTC got around it with its unique structural design, which didn't hold up so well in the end. Note than no buildings over 70, and few over 60, were built in the 1980s and 1990s office building waves. Higher occupied floors would be subsidized egomania, terrorism or no.
The latticework top will give us back our regional centerpiece and broadcast tower. We get the restaurant and the observation platform back as well. We'll get back the transportation hub, new and improved, and most of the commercial activity, though not all it. That's what I wanted.
I was concerned that the urban-snob wing, or the city-as-museum and cemetary wing, would leave us either with "contextual" 1900s 20 story buildings or with a hole in the city -- and in the tax base. The fact that you don't have the Soho types protesting the tall building is an intellectual victory.
Here in Brooklyn, I think we'll be calling it the "Middle Finger."
I agree with and savor every word of that post. Save the freedom verbiage for the ground level memorials.
Yes, because of course ALL buildings should be designed to withstand massice acts of unforseen aggression. I'll bet after WW3 you would advocate building all new building as conical concrete bunkers. In all truth the WTC design withstood the impacts. It was the office supply fire that eventually doomed them. The same design with better fire supression and stairwells would not only withstand the impact, but also the fire. Since we have all this data on the WTC design and how to make it better, let's go with it instead of some new design with a whole new set hidden faults.
Higher occupied floors would be subsidized egomania,
And what is wrong with that? Are you saying we should have never gone to the moon? Morale is very important. Maybe our country sould build something positive to generate morale instead of invading forgien countries that can't possibly put up any resistance. Moreover, did you ever consider that the WTC was an invaluable part of the skyline generating additional millions in card, T-shirt, movie and TV show revenue?
types protesting the tall building is an intellectual victory.
What tall building? I only see a 60-70 story jobber with some sort of fake facade glued on top. That's not a tall building, that's a hoax.
And what is wrong with that? Are you saying we should have never gone to the moon? Morale is very important.**
China wants to colonize the moon. When they'll get around to that point, we'll be at the same place as present due to freaks argueing if it's necessary or not. Maybe we'll get into a whole public transit type arguement where we decide if gov't has a role in going into space or not. That's what will happen with those types of arguements. If my taxes subsidize something tangible, or is obvious, then I'm good with it. Not if it goes solely to kickbacks and other graft.
Anyway, rebuild those suckers. Get the DoD to invent star trek sheilds outside the buildings if you have to. I'd hate to see Orlando and Tampa build these dozen or so high-rises that's now in the final planning stages and nothing was ever done with the WTC site that is pathetic or feable.
And what is wrong with that? Are you saying we should have never gone to the moon? Morale is very important.** )
Sure it is. And I have no problem with the egomania of rich people whose ego drives them to do unprofitable things for the benefit of their community. If someone wants to donate a $billion to build another 50 stories (or if all of you want to buy share subscriptions to pay for it) than fine. Make the space cheap enough (lose enough money) and you can have it be an artists colony, or something. Cut the price low enough and someone will move in.
As for New York City and New York State taxpayer funds, however, we have a lot to do other than investing in uneconomic office space, and a multi-billion dollar deficit to contend with. Above the 60th floor, the building is something to look at (and an antenna mast), not something to use. So I'm satisfied with the solution.
Architects had minds too back then. What about the event of a plane crash, as when an army plane crashed into the Empire State Building many years earlier?
They tested the Boeing 707, which was the biggest jet of the time (1970's) with a light load and traveling at 150mph. With this, the builders could see the towers withstanding multiple crashes, as the steel beams would act as a screen being hit by mosquitoes.
Unfortunately, the planes got too big too fast for any building in the world to withstand. Think about it. What man-made structure in the world can survive a twin-aisle 767, x2 bigger than a 707, traveling at cruise speed of 560mph? The performance of the towers redistributing the weight of the upper floors at the steel beams and the hat truss were all working to maximize the length of time the towers stood after the impacts. The only weakness that strikes me is they used trusses to support each floor, because they become very weak very quickly when applied to heat.
An off-hand question:
1. Is the Freedom Tower going to be an actual office tower or just a spire into the sky?
Both
Unfortunately, the planes got too big too fast for any building in the world to withstand. Think about it. What man-made structure in the world can survive a twin-aisle 767, x2 bigger than a 707, traveling at cruise speed of 560mph?
A 767 is not significantly larger than a 707. Of course, the 9/11 impact speeds were much greater than 150 mph.
Taller buildings are being constructed today in Asia, especially in China, but they are intended mainly as national ego-strokings rather than economically sound business ventures.
By making it an artistic masterpiece and the ultimate expression of American culture. This may mean the building should be the tallest; it may not.
Declaring war on them?
It may be necessary to colonise certain barbarous lands to remove the barbarian threat.
Anyway engineering marvals uplift us all.
Engineering marvels are often not seen. A building that was solely an engineering marvel would be very ugly indeed and may not have very much point.
So we should build the tallest, gotcha.
Engineering marvels are often not seen. A building that was solely an engineering marvel would be very ugly indeed and may not have very much point.
Its not ugly...its minimalist. It's raw and avant guarde. We learned a long time ago in this country that what something actually is dosen't matter, its how you market it.
Not necessarily. The capitol when built was not the tallest building on Earth.
Its not ugly...its minimalist.
Greatest excuse ever for crap art.
I personally don't think they could've done a much better job. It's impressive through being great rather than through being an architectural freak show.
The capitol WAS however one of the first and largest wrought iron domes built.
And that is how to build a magnificent whole: by making each of the components magnificent.
The Capitol was not built at one time and with one cohesive plan. That they made it look as if it was is remarkable.
They already are, writing letters to "voice" columns in some newspapers. But those numbers may be too small.
There should be a Zogby or other type poll to gauge what the people really think. Has this been done lately ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I think some form of the twin towers needs to be rebuilt. There was a proposal that had to cylindrical towers as tall as the twin towers. They were to be suspended over the footprints to allow for space elsewhere for new office buildings. In the 2 new towers I believe was a few levels of new office space. Then it was mostly memorial spaces of some sort. There was also a museum sort of thing that ran from one tower to the other. The interesting and probably most thoughtful, but also the most overlooked aspect of this, was that the points where the museum connected to each tower, was the point where the planes hit each tower.
I believe there is room to rebuild almost identicle twin towers on the site and not over the existing footprints. Just make the footprints the memorials. Seems though the architects are winning.
Bill "Newkirk"
1. the structures shall have at least 111 occupiable floors.
2. Each floor shall be of at least equal square footage as the original WTC 1 and 2 towers.
3. The occupied portion of the resulting structures shall, at the time of construction, featuer the highest rentable floor space above ground level. (AGL)
4. one of the two structures shall have an antenna mast, similar it design to the original mast but built to be the tallest such mast (AGL) in the world at the time of construction.
5. The previous tenant will be evicted and fairly compensated so that he will no longer interfere with the towers' reconstruction.
6. the structures will cooupy footprints diagonally opposite to the footprints of the original towers, the original footprints will be used as memorial space at and above ground level. \
All of these points are necessary so that America can have what she deserves, a symbol of world leadership. While the money men and their pseudo patriot useful idiots don't want America's preeminence to continue, the working class, who cares about America can and will build bigger, taller, better than any of the money men's preferred workers in the third world.
I thought about if we just build the same ones again. But how about we make them a couple floors bigger. Build the same thing over, but BIGGER. That would really Pi$$ the [political correctness censor reactivated] off!
And like I said, every city is characterized by it's skyline. Plus, how much more bold and unrelentless can you get, then building the same thing over, but BIGGER!
And no matter what, point 6 should be an unconditional term of the whole thing.
*"6. the structures will [co-occupy] footprints diagonally opposite to the footprints of the original towers, the original footprints will be used as memorial space at and above ground level"*
Good stuff
:)
I meant building something. Not having an empty gap, or 2-4 buildings that are tiny.
And I believe a lot of it was encased in an inside mall. Many malls close at night (I don't know if that one did). When they do, they are generally a pain in the derriere to circumnavigate.
And as for the memorial, it should be just as extravegant as the new office buildings.
Yes, we should build a new tallest building, because if you build really small buildings, what happens then? Some other tallest building will be the target. If you make all buildings the same low height, they have to end somewhere. I don't believe we should rebuild in order to show the terrorists that we won, the way to show a terrorist that we won is to show him the barrel of a gun before putting a bullet between his eyes. I believe we should rebuild for ourselves. Societies that cower in fear lie on the ash heap of history. You can't live your life in fear. If you want to be a necrocrat, go live in a spider hole with your beloved dead. I will join humanity on its march toward the sky.
And also, 9/11 WAS NOT A TRAGEDY! Deliberate massacres of thousands of people are not tragedies.
wayne
A tragedy often involves forces beyond our control. In many of those cases (famine, AIDS), you might argue that we havent done nearly enough to defeat them, but in none of the examples cited can you claim a group is acting deliberately and maliciously to make certain as many people die as possible, and crowing about it the whole way
wayne
Then what?
I for one feel sympathy for those people who have the strength of character to move on with their lives. But I feel no sympathy for those losers whose sole purpose in life is to mourn and force everyone else to join them.
Leaving the footprints intact is a reasonable request. Leaving the entire site vacant is not (although that's happily off the table, despite what Peter Rosa says).
I think though that more office space should be added to that plan within the 2 towers.
OK, I'm not bothering anymore with this thread. I'm going back to transit.
DUDE!!!
It's nice to see someone who agrees with me completely. I've called cemeteries landfills before.
I'm not saying that the families of the victims will succeed in keeping the entire site vacant. What I am saying is that through good, old-fashioned Typical New York Incompetence, nothing's likely to get built for years to come. Just like the Second Avenue Subway remains a "someday" project after more than 80 years.
I never said you did.
What I am saying is that through good, old-fashioned Typical New York Incompetence, nothing's likely to get built for years to come.
This is what I disagree with.
Besides, WTC was one incident, by a small group of people, at one time. Holocaust was over 4 years of government-inspired hell.
On a related topic - a recent visit to GZ revealed new steel in the face of the Deutsche Bank building, seventeen stories worth. Does this mean that this building will be spared the scrapper's torch?
wayne
I don't like those sloped roof buildings also. They seem to mimic buildings about to collapse.
Bill "Newkirk"
#3 West End Jeff
Not to mention off-topic.
For my part, I do not believe that building no skyscrapers would be tantamount to the “terrorists winning”…I would prefer a decent memorial and not a brazen capitalistic attempt to return to the 70s. Things seem to be going backwards anyhow – note that there are no more supersonic airliners in service anymore; certainly the world is changing…
An era has ended. The SST and the Twin Towers were late in an era when there was a continual push to bigger, faster, shinier, for it's own sake.
An additional issue with a new WTC is that they've determined that, for the foreseeable future, noone will want to occupy space above the 70th floor or so, which is why the proposed 1776 foot tower will not have office space above that level or so.
THEY are the private sector--- THE VERY ONES who should have ZERO involvement in this. It will take BIG GOVERNMENT to do it right.
The private sector built Manhattan.
Of course American Pig loves flaming you, he doesn't suffer fools lightly
Hmm, you know what group of people can't think up their own insults? Fools. And using big words don't make up for it.
No one has determined that. The developers are simply being ultra-conservative...
I would prefer a monument to the living and not the dead. Brazen capitalism is acceptable.
CAPITALISM, NOT NECROCRACY!
The Design of the new structure for downtown sucks. The Twin Towers were (In My Opinion) the coolest buildings in the city, a very plain design but very functional and efficient layout inside.
And with the new building that is supposed to go up, I don't think it replaces all the office space that was lost on 9.11.01 does it ?
This Is What I Live For...
I think all of the new buildings combined make up for all of the WTC buildings combined. In other words, the other new buildings to be built are each larger than the former WTC 3,4,5, and 6.
"It has been over three years since this horrible day.
I think if you check your MSCalander, it's actually been just 2 years, 3 months and about 14 days since the criminal attack.
"I am just merely expressing my concern."
I believe you are wrong. Wrong in how you pose your question. Wrong in your facts. Mostly, wrong in your opinion. Anything built on that site will be symbolic of the type of people we really are. If we build something on that site that is less than we want it to be simply because we fear another terrorist attack, then the terrorists would have already won without firing a shot. Build it to be the symbol we intend it to be and protect it with the certain knowledge that any terrorist attack will have consequences so terrible that such an attack would be unthinkable.
There's a simple formula to determine whether the terrorists have won or not:
Terrorists, terrorist supporters and terrorist sympathizers alive: we lost
Terrorists, terrorist supporters and terrorist sympathizers each with bullets in their brains: we won
But the people that committed the act didn't draw another breath.
The solution is to kill the families of terrorists. When Israel captures a failed terrorist and ask him what would be a deterrent, many of them say that killing their entire family as punishment would stop them.
1. One victim's family (presumably speaking for all victims' families) demands that nothing ever be built on the site (and that the rebuilt subway and PATH tunnels be un-built) so that the site can remain a permanent memorial, because anything other than that would let the terrorists win.
2. Another victim's family (presumably speaking for all victims' families) demands that the entire WTC complex be completely rebuilt in kind, beam for beam, because anything other than that would let the terrorists win.
3. Yet another victim's family (presumably speaking for all victims' families) likes the "Freedom Tower" design and supports its construction to show that life can continue, because anything other than that would let the terrorists win.
Now I must ask the following: What is the one official "victims' family" opinion?
1. The new building is on, over, or to the side of the footprints
2. The memorial
nothing else
No. The decision where the buildings should be should depend on structural, economic and practical considerations.
At least as of a few years ago, Trinity Cemetery way uptown was still accepting burials.
Obviously the decline in ridership has to do with the fact that the 7 large office buildings of the World Trade Center which altogether probably employed 60,000+ people are no longer there, it will probably take 10-12 years to bring the PATH ridership back to pre-September 11th levels.
I have no doubts though that the ridership will indeed return to record levels within 10 years, so at the time the investment in the larger permanent PATH station will be seen as a wise investment.
Remember that the $1-2 Billion that has been allocated for the new World Trade Center Station is not just for the construction of an aesthically pleasing above ground structure, but it also includes an underground concourse that will stretch from the Winter Garden of the World Financial Center through the World Trade Center Site and then connect with the new MTA Fulton street transit complex which is a separate project.
I happen to think the decline in ridership had to do with New York Waterway. I thought NO ONE would ever wait in the cold for a ferry but I was wrong. There are plenty of people who have gotten used to riding the ferry instead of taking Path.
The passengers who did not return to Path are the Hoboken residents who work by the Battery or Harborside.
Track level will be relatively permanent, though obviously walls will be built as the subterranean levels of the bathtub are rebuilt. Some ductwork for air handling was already installed. I would expect a full false ceiling to hide the mechanicals in time.
The lower mezzanine will similarly be filled in. There is already one Hudson News, and other amenities, such as the cafe and pub could follow.
The upper mezzanine is huge and just waiting for development!
My only gripe about the current arrangement is that they have gone overboard hiding the bathtub hole. I would like to see some observation area, so we can watch the reconstruction at least until the hole is filled in to ground level.
I wonder how they do that. Does your luggage travel on AirTrain with you?
I don't see any problem with it.
Do you seriously think that's going to happen?
False statement. If the system does not function as advertised, the airlines will not offer it or cancel it. If they offer it, it will be because they have calculated that it does work.
Denver International Airport had a lot of glitches in baggage handling, and passengers using Denver's inter-terminal train (that's the only way you can use that airport, it's so huge). wound up without their luggage. It was a nightmare - for a short while. So, they worked out the glitches. I have flown into Denver twice now, without a problem.
AirTrain is no different. There is a capability to handle luggage and operational procedures are obviously still being worked out.
I'm always amazed at the nonsensical kibitzing that goes on about that. Do any of you guys work in the airline industry? Have you seen what goes into an airport baggage operation? Don't you get on an airplane worrying that a conveyer belt will jam?
Your only responsibility as a passenger is to make sure you and your bags are at the check-in counter on time. Anything else is misinformed nonsense.
Currently correct; you can also rent a cart to help you.
"But the future isn't in the near future."
You have no clue whether it is or isn't.
Does anyone have a clue as to when?
As a passenger, that isn't your problem. Do you worry about the conveyer belt in the luggage area slipping off its sprockets and getting your bag lost? Of course not.
When an airline offers baggage check-in at Jamaica Station, it will be because it worked out those details for you. All you have to do is pick up your bag when you land. End of story.
Right now you can rent a baggage cart for $2 right in the AirTrain station and take it with you to the airport.
To they take Metrocards?
0 CPM = 15 MPH
75 CPM = 30 MPH
120 CPM = 40 MPH
420 CPM = 55 MPH
270 CPM = 65 MPH
180 CPM = 80 MPH
So I'd assume that your 120 is correct.
Can you speculate what would happen if a PRR box encountered LIRR 55mph and 65mph codes? Whould it display a CLEAR or go haywire?
As for code generators getting slowed down? This is 2003, not 1953. Unless US&S is stupid, today's generators are crystals with dividers, not mechanical devices.
As for the LIRR having a 65 - interestingly, the M-7s don't show 65, they show 70.
None of these systems are particularly advanced anyway - overseas, cab signal systems look ahead a few blocks, so the engineer knows what the heck's ahead. I think the setup NJT has been installing can come close to that, though.
Postitive stop is a long overdue addition, though. I suppose the LIRR will eventually refit for it, too.
As I said, the cab sigling was for the diesel fleet.
Now is there some difference in what a diesel or electric can do under same conditions? Like you mention 65 vs 70.
And the part about the LIRR with the intermediate speeds between 40 and 80 and the signals being slowed down. Why could that not happend, (post about this being 2003 not 1953)
After the PRR went away, when Conrail and Amtrak looked to expand their Cab Signaled territory, it was easiest to adopt the PRR system because their locomotives were already set up for it. Amtrak installed cabs through to Boston and Springfield. Later NJT cab signaled all of its lines due to what may or may not be a state law requiring ATC following the 1962 Newark Bay Bridge disaster. That's stll a little unclear, but NJT did install cabs on all of its lines.
In the mid 80's MNRR realized they chould save some money by going to what is called Rule 562 operation, which means you have cab signals only outside of interlockings, no fixed wayside signals. MNRR choce of course the standard 4 aspect system. Also around this time the Huston Line to Albany was cab signaled for hi-speed operations and the Conrail Boston line converted to Rule 562.
The LIRR adopted a pure speed dusplay unit instead of the aspect display unit used on the other systems. In the late 60's with the M-1's it appearently increased to a 6 aspect system that had codes for 55 and 65mph (or 60 and 70 on MU's) that was enforced anywhere the maximum speed on a line was less than 70/80. The LIRR trains are compatible with the 4 aspect system as they still have to run into Penn Station.
Re: the differance b/t Diesel and MU. The LIRR is paranoid about the stopping profiles of their diesel units and restrict them to a slower range of speeds than the MU's. I think MU's are 15, 30 ,45, 60, 70, 80 and the Diesel are 15, 30, 40, 55, 65, 70. I might be off -+5 mph on some of those, but you get the jist of it.
The LIRR's different speeds for diesels vs MUs was because the MUs could achive 3.0mph/s service rates, the old diesels couldn't. The new stuff cvan, thus gets mostly the same rates as the MUs.
You are correct about all but the 70 MPH. On the DE/DM30ACs it's still 80 MPH.
Unless you want to achieve backward compativility. In NORAC the Clear cab signal translates to NORMAL speed which is defined as the maximum authorized speed. At this point the engineer is suposted to know what the MAS is. For example in the SEPTA Center City tubes, trains will pull clear cabs north of Suburban Station even thought the MAS is 25 or 30. On the LIRR a 55 or 65 code will only be given on a "Clear" block signal. Therefore having the 270 and 420 codes translate to a Clear on a NORAC CSS box is perfectly acceptable. Basically, its the philosophy behind seperating signal conditions and track conditions as each requires different train handling for maximum efficiency and safety.
As for code generators getting slowed down? This is 2003, not 1953. Unless US&S is stupid, today's generators are crystals with dividers, not mechanical devices.
Heh, think again. If you remember the code generator shown in the picture I posted, you can still buy the exact same thing from the US&S catalogue. In fact, looking at it now, there is no "solid state" option available. You can buy the PC-250TR preset for code rates of 50, 75, 120, 180, 270 and 470 ppm. Since the LIRR ASC system
None of these systems are particularly advanced anyway - overseas, cab signal systems look ahead a few blocks, so the engineer knows what the heck's ahead. I think the setup NJT has been installing can come close to that, though.
Wayside signal aspects are already looking 2 blocks ahead. Any farther is really not necessary. Combining limited cabs with fully descriptive waysides or just having the full range of waysides in the cab will provide the necessary information. Amtrak and NJT are both employing the ACSES system, but this is not going to do what you think it is going to do. ACSES is meerly a cab signal overlay system used to enforce speed restrictions and affect PTS at interlockings. It will not provide any information regarding block occupancy not already conveyed by the CSS. In fact Amtrak CDU's will have two speeds, a signal speed and an ACSES speed.
Postitive stop is a long overdue addition, though. I suppose the LIRR will eventually refit for it, too.
The ACSES PTS will be able to differentiate b/t a Rule 292 and all the other conditions where a cab signal no code exist. Moreover, engineers will have the power to overide a PTS once they have come to a complete stop. So, in all actuality it is a PTS&P.
Yes, having a slower code translate to a higher cab signal aspect
sounds fishy. I don't have any data on the LIRR system so
I can't be certain. Train Dude may have made a typo...the
off-the-shelf code transmitter rates are, IIRC, 75, 120, 150, 180
and 240, not sure about any ones higher than that.
As for compatibility between different cab signal systems: The
typical circuit for the car- or loco-borne equipment uses a
sensitive code-following relay (TFR) which goes up and down
with each code pulse. This is repeatered by TFPRA and TFPRB
(your nomenclature may vary), one of which is made vitally
slow-release using a copper slug. The combination of these 3 relays
allows one to vitally detect whether the track circuit is coding
or not. Therefore, this circuit will respond to ANY code above
the minimum code rate.
Beyond that, TFR pulses battery into a bunch of code decoding
transformers, e.g. 120DT, 180DT. These are tuned LC circuits
and so they will respond only to a narrow range of code rates.
If the matching code rate is being applied, they pass the signal
to the secondary, where a rectifier and relay detect it.
So, I would speculate, if a train receives a whacky code, say
300/min, then none of the decoding transformers would pick it
up. However, the first stage would see coding, and the system
would conclude that a 75 code (Approach) is being seen.
Amtrak's new cab signal system which was developed for Acela uses
a second, audio-frequency carrier, overlaid on the existing
coded circuit, so it retains full compatibility with older
equipment.
The 91.333 signal frequency used by the PRR has been the subject
of much speculation on the yahoo signal group. It would make
some kind of sense that they were trying to avoid the 4th harmonic
of 25cy, BUT this odd carrier frequency was allegedly only used
in DC territory!
No, TD is correct. The LIRR needs to be compatible with the 4 standard NORAC codes and 270 and 420 are the other two rates. So I guess they just feel the problem isn't much of a problem as the block status is Clear, and the engineer SHOULD know what the linespeed is regardless.
Thanks for the description of how it worked, I am sure with modern solid state tech you could make a CSS box that would show clear for any rate 180 or above, thus being backwards compatible.
Amtrak's new cab signal system which was developed for Acela uses
a second, audio-frequency carrier, overlaid on the existing
coded circuit, so it retains full compatibility with older
equipment.
Now just to be sure you're not talking about the ACSES transponders, cause they're a whole different ballgame. Can you explain in more detail how the new Amtrak system works? I got the juice on ACSES, but I can't find anything at all re: Amtrak's new cab signals.
The 6 new Amtrak cab signal codes will be a CLEAR 150 CLEAR 100 CAB SPEED 80, CAB SPEED 60, APPROACH LIMITED 45 and APPROACH MEDIUM 30.
If you ask me they should have combined CAB SPEED 60 and APPROACH LIMITED 45 and just had APPROACH LIMITED 60.
http://imsserver.volpe.dot.gov/workgrp/meetings/njt_aces.pdf
0,15,30,45,60,80..what else?
They list 6: 15 MPH, 30 MPH, 40 MPH, 55 MPH, 65 MPH & 80 MPH
Because they specify 7 aspects one can assume that the 7th is a zero code. The manufacturer notes that these speeds are nominal and can be reprogrammed by the railroad as needed.
What I'm looking for is a reference for the code frequencies for other rail systems (like NJT since LIRR and NJT use some common trackage). I'm curious to see if their Cab Signal codes are equivalent.
This is a 1947 vintage US&S pulse code generator installed by the PRR and still in use today in signal cabinets and relay sheds everywhere. This is for the CLEAR indication and is running between 175 and 181 ppm. If you dom't believe me on the other two give me a week and I'll get you the other two.
BTW, there is no zero code, just a zero aspect. When a train is getting a NO CODE in the rails it gets the 15 aspect for permissive operations at RESTRICTED speed. When a train is traveling above the speed authorized by the cab signals the 0 aspect is displayed as the overspeed indication. If you dom't slow down the 0 goes on perimently and you get a penalty brake application. This was discussed on Railroad.net some time ago. So that's why the company referance manual is only listing 6 aspects. The 7th, 0 mph, is not displayed based on anything recieved from the tracks.
BTW, is the 100Hz received in NORAC Zone A and the 91Hz in the LIRR zone? 100Hz is the carrier frequency for Amtrak et al and such a differance in carrier frequency could be the signal for the CSS boxes to know which aspect system was in service if the PRR system was not backwards compatible with the LIRR one.
Also, what are the pulse code rates for the 6 LIRR aspects? I have been dying to find out. My money is on the 15, 30, 40 and 80 rates matching up with the PRR system.
Amtrak's carrier is 100hz? I thought is was NOT 100hz so that the traction currents wouldn't interfere (I recall reading that 100hz was a problem when the PRR installed catenary, as it's the 4th harmonic of 25hz)
The origional LIRR system was 3 aspect (MAS, 30, 12 (?15?)), it was updated to the current one in when the M-1s arrived. The PRR one didn't show speeds, my E-60 book shows Clear, Approach Medium, Approach, Restricting, though I think the earlier systems were fewer than that.
BTW, the GG-1s had cab signals, but no automatic stops, as did LIRR MUs - the Port Washington line had cab signals in the Teens, I think. It was after the Richmond Hill wreck that the LIRR installed the ASC system (automatic stops). I've found referances to LIRR MUs having NYCTA style trip cocks, though.
There's some old guy that is responsible for the interlocking and has been since the PRR days. Take it up with him.
The 100Hz has become pretty much a standard. The RFP used a 66hz system, but was upgraded to 100Hz after the Conrail split. Amtrak would not choose to use another Hz as it would create the same problem CSX had to deal with for a decade.
The origional LIRR system was 3 aspect (MAS, 30, 12 (?15?)), it was updated to the current one in when the M-1s arrived.
The PRR and LIRR both started with the 3 aspect system in the 20's, but presumably both upgraded to the 4 aspect system by the late 30's or eary 40's. The LIRR went to the 6 aspect ASC system in 1951/2.
The PRR one didn't show speeds, my E-60 book shows Clear, Approach Medium, Approach, Restricting, though I think the earlier systems were fewer than that.
The PRR/NORAC rules don't need speeds because each aspect represents one of the 4 standard speeds. CLEAR = NORMAL, APP MED = LIMITED, APPROACH = MEDIUM and RESTRICTING = RESTRICTED/SLOW
The Amtrak CDU's show both speed and aspect while the new NJT SDU's just show speed.
BTW, the GG-1s had cab signals, but no automatic stops, as did LIRR MUs
I believe that most PRR passenger power, GG-1's included were or were eventually fitted with the stop and forestaller. I know that K-4's operating on the NY&LB had a speed control unit and some MP-54's had speed control as well. You could tell which ones by looking for two orange stripes in the first passenger window back from the vestabule.
Actually, the LIRR was 3 in the 50's, and the few remaining MP-54s out there have 3 aspect ADU. I have form ASC-1 from the LIRR (1951), which clearlty states 3 aspects - MAS (green), 30 (yellow), 12 (red). It also defines '"flip".
Some LIRR steamers had ASC installed on them.
AFAIK, the current 6 aspect system appeared in the late 60's when the M-1s. BTW, Budd's book shows 0, 15, 30, 45, 60, 80 and 100 in the diagram of the speedo. The LIRR wouldn't have had a real need for more than 3 aspects until the M-1s showed up, even the 'zip' cars had an optional balancing speed of only 70-75mph, whereas the 'normal' setting was 60mph. The MP-54s likely topped at around 60.
Of course when some MP-54's were alegidly not running with any cab signal equipment at all on CSS equipped lines maybe it is a step forward.
Remember - the LIRR's MUs didn't achive anywhere near the speeds of GG-1s, and ran in a different operation, where speeds were lower and stops were frequent.
Remember, too - the LIRR was dragged kicking and screaming into the system, even after the 1950 wrecks proved it was desperately needed. They went the cheapest way they could.
Why was the LIRR dragged in kicking and screaming? The PRR was always at the forefront of safety. It seems that CSS based ASC would have been something the PRR would have wanted to implement. Another mystery is why they went with a different aspect display unit than the PRR's position light unit.
It's hard to argue the ASC system wasn't needed (it obviously was, given the regular crashes on the LIRR in the late 40's/early 50's), or that it doesn't work (it's virtually elimanated train-train collisions on the LIRR, save for very low speed ones).
Cost too much? I don't think so - remember that accidents, too, cost money, especially when there's a loss of life. By not having fatal collisions on the LIRR, money was saved in lawyers, cleanup, lost equipment, lost ridership, investigation, and lost revenue from canceled services. Assuming an average of one major collision a year, the costs would have added up rather fast - and ridership would have been negatively affected.
The LIRR's origional CSS installations simply supplemented the wayside signals. ASC effectively replaced it on the PW line, and when ASC came into play, it was required on most trains in ASC territory. Obviously , you get maximum benefit only if all trains use it. At least early on, the LIRR required all ASC equipped trains to use ASC in ASC territory, but I don't see anything about non ASC trains in ASC territory.
Click for the full list of people doing announcements.
Didn't MTH originally promise the R-12's to be delivered in Jan 2003?
That works out to 13 months late!
-Robert King
On the HBLR cars, the female voice is somewhat upbeat, matter-of-factly and quickly spits out the station, connection info, and destination.
"This station, Hoboken Terminal. This is the train to 34th Street. Next stop, Pavonia-Newport."
On the NCS cars, the female voice is toned down, laid-back and sounds like she just smoked a blunt, got laid, or both. And the format is different, too.
"This station Grove Street. This is the train to Penn Station. You must have a valid ticket to ride this train. Have your valid ticket ready for inspection. Next stop? Silver Lake!"
Bring some of that to the R-142(A)'s and then we'll be in business!
Or is a 300-pound 75-year-old who just happens to have a young sexy sounding voice.
I much prefer the HBLR voice as it sounds more professional.
No, they haven't been... although, as noted by another poster, it would be possible if a truck swap were to be performed. However, there's no reason to do that since there is plenty of equipment available for both lines.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
NJ Transit did not update that "womans" voice to include the 22nd street station. From what I understand, it's not a simple patch and the WHOLE recording has to be done from scratch!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If you're 10 miles away with binoculars I guess!
These are derived from a TiVo keyword wishlist. All times are Eastern.
Techno Files: "Earth" (2002) Largest subway system; largest indoor ski resort; largest satellite manufacturing plant in the world; largest hotspot in the United States. Series.
Thu 12/25 1:00 am Science Channel
Thu 12/25 6:00 am Science Channel
Thu 12/25 9:00 am Science Channel
Thu 12/25 2:00 pm Science Channel
Thu 12/25 5:00 pm Science Channel
MSNBC Investigates: mutliple episodes
"Disaster on Track 2" (2002) Two trains collide, exploding and bursting into flame. Series.
Thu 12/25 1:00 am MSNBC
"Terror on the Tracks" (2001) A mentally ill man is pushed into the path of a subway train. Series.
Fri 12/26 10:00 pm MSNBC
Sat 12/27 2:00 am MSNBC
Money Train: (1995) Wesley Snipes, Woody Harrelson, Jennifer Lopez. N.Y. subway cops (Wesley Snipes, Woody Harrelson) fight crime, but one plots heist. CC.
Sun 12/28 1:00 am TBS
Sun 12/28 7:30 am TBS
The X-Files: "Medusa" (2001) Gillian Anderson, Robert Patrick, Mitch Pileggi. Bizarre deaths occur in the tunnels of the Boston subway system. Secondary Audio, CC, Series.
Sun 12/28 5:00 pm Local: WLNY (55) Riverhead, NY
Mon 12/29 3:00 am WGN
New York Underground: (2003) The history of the city's extensive subway suystem. Special.
THIS IS THE ULTIMATE RIDE PROGRAM
Sun 12/28 9:00 pm Discovery Times Channel
Mon 12/29 12:00 am Discovery Times Channel
Mon 12/29 5:00 am Discovery Times Channel
Mon 12/29 8:00 am Discovery Times Channel
Mon 12/29 1:00 pm Discovery Times Channel
Mon 12/29 4:00 pm Discovery Times Channel
Tue 12/30 10:00 pm Discovery Times Channel
Wed 12/31 1:00 am Discovery Times Channel
Wed 12/31 6:00 am Discovery Times Channel
Wed 12/31 9:00 am Discovery Times Channel
Wed 12/31 2:00 pm Discovery Times Channel
Wed 12/31 5:00 pm Discovery Times Channel
Hands on History: multiple episodes
"Subways" (2001) The first U.S. subway opens in 1897 Boston. CC, Series.
Sat 1/3 5:00 pm History Channel
"Cable Cars" (2001) San Francisco cable cars are artifacts of a bygone era. CC, Series
Sat 1/3 5:30 pm History Channel
Full House: "Subterranean Graduation Blues" (1993) John Stamos, Bob Saget, Dave Coulier. Jesse and clan get stuck in the subway on the way to his graduation. CC, Series.
Sun 1/4 12:00 pm ABC Family Channel
Zentropa: (1991) Jean-Marc Barr, Barbara Sukowa, Udo Kier. An American (Jean-Marc Barr) becomes caught in a plot to blow up a train for the woman (Barbara Sukowa) he loves in 1945 Germany. Sub-Titled, CC.
Mon 12/29 4:00 pm Independent Film Channel
Tue 12/30 8:00 am Independent Film Channel
America's Orient Express: (2003) A vintage 1940s Pullman-Standard tours America's national parks. Special.
Tue 12/30 1:00 pm Travel Channel
Tue 12/30 6:00 pm Travel Channel
Leave It To Beaver: "Train Trip" (1958) Hugh Beaumont, Barbara Billingsley, Tony Dow. The boys spend their train-ticket money. Black & White, CC, Series.
Tue 12/30 8:00 pm TV Land
The Three Stooges: "A Pain in the Pullman" The boys wreak havoc on a train. Black & White, Series.
Wed 12/31 6:19 pm American Movie Classics (part of a Stooges MARATHON)
The Great Train Robbery: (1979) Sean Connery, Donald Sutherland, Lesley-Anne Down. Dapper thieves (Sean Connery, Donald Sutherland) rob gold bars from a moving train in 1855 England. Letterbox.
Thu 1/1 2:00 pm Turner Classic Movies
The Twilighty Show About that Zone: "A Stop at Willoughby" (1960) Howard Smith, James Daly, Patricia Donahue. A businessman asleep on a train wakes up in 1888. Black & White, CC, Series.
Thu 1/1 3:30 pm Sci-Fi Channel (part of a Twilight Zone MARATHON)
Flame Over India: (1959) Kenneth More, Lauren Bacall, Herbert Lom. A British captain (Kenneth More) uses an old train to get a Hindu prince, his governess (Lauren Bacall) and others out of a besieged citadel.
Sun 1/4 12:00 am Local: WLIW (21) Plainview, NY
I Love Trouble: (1994) Julia Roberts, Nick Nolte, Saul Rubinek. Sparks fly between rival Chicago reporters (Julia Roberts, Nick Nolte) chasing down a story that starts with a train wreck. Premiere.
Sun 1/4 2:00 am Turner Network Television (TNT)
Sun 1/4 8:00 am Turner Network Television (TNT)
Rescue 911: "Mother Shooting; Conrail Train" Man shoots wife at close range; children on train tracks. CC, Series.
Mon 1/5 6:00 pm Discovery Health Channel
I have this movie on DVD and I HIGHLY recomend it. It is one of the core "Railfan" movies that all true railfans should own. This is one of the two movies written and directed by Michael Crighton.
The program guide data extends 12 days.
Another chance to watch the Ultimate Riders again!
Silver Streak: Movie, Comedy, Suspense (1976) Gene Wilder, Jill Clayburgh, Richard Pryor. A Los Angeles editor gets mixed up with art forgers and murder, on and off a train to Chicago. Secondary Audio, CC.
Sat 1/3 6:05 pm Encore Love Stories
Sun 1/4 5:45 am Encore Love Stories
Wed 1/14 10:50 am Encore Love Stories
Wed 1/14 6:05 pm Encore Love Stories
Once Upon a Time in the West: Movie, Western (1969) Henry Fonda, Claudia Cardinale, Charles Bronson. An outlaw (Henry Fonda) working for a railroad magnate fights a stranger (Charles Bronson) for a New Orleans widow's (Claudia Cardinale) land.
Sat 1/3 10:50 pm Turner South (available in the South only)
Sun 1/4 11:40 am Turner South
The Third Rail: Comedy, Drama, Short Format. Joe Dempsey, Rich Hutchman, Heidi Mokrycki. A man meets an attractive woman on a train platform. Letterbox.
Sun 1/4 4:10 am Encore Love Stories
Wed 1/14 3:50 am Encore Love Stories
Before Sunrise: Movie, Romance (1995) Ethan Hawke, Julie Delpy, Erni Mangold. An American man and a Frenchwoman meet on a train and spend a romantic day and night in Vienna. Letterbox
Sun 1/4 10:35 pm Sundance Channel
Tue 1/13 9:00 pm Sundance Channel
Tough Guys: Movie, Comedy, Drama (1986) Burt Lancaster, Kirk Douglas, Alexis Smith. The last two men ever to rob a U.S. train finally get out of prison and decide to rob one again. Secondary Audio, CC.
Mon 1/5 11:40 am Encore
Fri 1/9 1:15 pm Encore
Murder on the Orient Express: Movie, Mystery/Crime (1974) Albert Finney, Lauren Bacall, Martin Balsam. Agatha Christie's Belgian sleuth, Hercule Poirot, solves a train stabbing in 1934. Secondary Audio, CC.
Tue 1/6 2:00 pm Encore
Voyages: "Trains Unlimited: Built for Speed" Documentary (1998) Train Speed increases from the days of steam to the diesel and electric ages. Series.
Wed 1/7 11:00 am History Channel International (note: NOT REGULAR HISTORY CHANNEL)
Wed 1/7 4:00 pm History Channel International
Thu 1/8 4:00 am History Channel International
Wed 1/14 11:00 am History Channel International
Wed 1/14 4:00 pm History Channel International
Wed 1/15 4:00 am History Channel International
Rescue 911: "Trains vs. Teens; Idaho Trooper Down" Docudrama, Reality-based. Car collides with oncoming train; driver of stolen car shoots policeman. CC, Series.
Wed 1/7 6:00 pm Discovery Health Channel
Caillou: "Machines! Brrrrrrmmm!" Animation, Children (2003) Caillou and his mother take the subway; recycling; remote-control robot. CC, Series.
Thu 1/8 10:30 am PBS/New Jersey Network: WNJM (50) Montclair
Mad About You: "Surprise" Comedy (1993) Paul Reiser, Helen Hunt, Anne Ramsay. Jamie and Paul lose each other on the subway on her 30th birthday. CC, Series.
Thu 1/8 11:30 am Lifetime
The Best Of...: "Train Stations" Travel, Cooking (2002) Dubliner, an Irish pub in Washington D.C.; Milwaukee Depot; Winter Garden Room in Minneapolis; Grand Central Oyster Bar and Restaurant in New York. Series
Thu 1/8 1:30 pm The Food Network
Fri 1/9 4:00 am The Food Network
Amazing Animal Videos: Animals (2001) Bees cover a man; playful black bear; horses block train trestle. CC, Series.
Thu 1/8 5:30 pm Animal Planet
The American South by Rail: Documentary, History (2002) The American Orient Express, a restored luxury train, travels from New Orleans to Washington, D.C. CC, Special
Thu 1/8 8:00 pm Public Broadcasting Service: WNET (13) New York
Sat 1/10 3:00 pm Public Broadcasting Service: WNET (13) New York
Man on the Train: Movie, Comedy, Drama (2002) Jean Rochefort, Johnny Hallyday, Jean-Francois Stevenin. The destinies of a retired professor & a bank robber intersect in this acclaimed film from Patrice Leconte. Subtitled.
DirecTV Blockbuster Pay-per-view: Tune to the 100s
Burt Wolf: Travels & Traditions: "Jungfrau Region, Switzerland" Travel, Cooking, How-To (2003) Switzerland's Jungfrau region; Lake Thurn; railroad; research station studies the Earth's atmosphere; waterfall. CC, Series.
Sat 1/10 5:00 pm PBS/NJN: WNJM (50) Montclair
Critical Rescue: "Fateful Journey" Reality-based (2003) An early-morning commuter train collides with a freight train. CC, Series.
Sat 1/10 9:00 pm Discovery Health Channel
Sun 1/11 12:00 am Discovery Health Channel
Con Express: Movie, Action/Adventure (2002) Sean Patrick Flanery, Arnold Vosloo, Ursula Karven. Two agents (Sean Patrick Flanery, Ursula Karven) battle terrorists to recover nerve gas aboard a runaway train. CC.
Sat 1/10 10:00 pm Showtime Extreme
Silver Thread Through the West: The California Zephyr: Documentary, History (2000) The history of the train. CC, Special.
Sun 1/11 10:00 am Public Broadcasting Service: WLIW (21) Plainview, NY
The Grand Tour: "The Canadian Rockies" Travel (1999) As Canada lays down its transcontinental railroad, magnificent hotels are built. CC, Series.
Mon 1/12 7:00 am Arts and Entertainment Television
Real TV: Reality-based. Multiple Episodes
(1997) Abusive dentist; train mishap; lava flow. CC, Series
Mon 1/12 11:30 am Spike TV
(1997) Barfly boa constrictor; train wreck; hummingbirds. Series.
Tue 1/13 4:30 pm Spike TV
Emperor of the North: Movie, Action/Adventure (1973) Lee Marvin, Ernest Borgnine, Keith Carradine. Two 1930s hobos (Lee Marvin, Keith Carradine) try to ride a brutal conductor's freight train. Secondary Audio.
Tue 1/13 12:20 pm Encore
Cyberchase: "Mothers Day" Animation, Computers, Children (2003) Hacker Tries to derail the train carrying Madre Bonita's flowers in order to ruin Mother's Day. Secondary Audio, CC, Series.
Tue 1/13 5:30 pm Public Broadcasting Service/NJN: WNJM (50) Montclair
Wed 1/14 5:00 pm Public Broadcasting Service: WNET (13) New York
Wed 1/14 5:00 pm PBS National Satellite Feed
Thu 1/15 7:00 am PBS Kids
Thu 1/15 8:00 am Public Broadcasting Service: WNET (13) New York
Thu 1/15 4:30 pm PBS Kids
Oblivious: "Subway" Game Show (2002) Subway. Series.
Tue 1/13 9:30 pm Spike TV
Lone Ranger: "Mr. Trouble" Action/Adventure, Western (1951) Clayton Moore, Jay Silverheels, Larry Blake. The Lone Ranger and Tonto help Rick Merill keep a railroad franchise. Black & White, Series.
Wed 1/14 4:30 pm World Harvest Television
Profiler: "Train Man" Drama, Mystery/Crime (2000) Jamie Luner, Robert Davi, Julian McMahon. A tortured serial killer snuffs out the lives of elderly hobos. CC. Series.
Wed 1/14 6:00 pm Court TV
BTW, did anyone ever see this episode:
Mad About You: "Surprise" Comedy (1993) Paul Reiser, Helen Hunt, Anne Ramsay. Jamie and Paul lose each other on the subway on her 30th birthday. CC, Series.
Thu 1/8 11:30 am Lifetime
Does it have real footage like the Seinfeld or I Love Lucy subway episodes, or is it more in line with the All in the Family one?
I got to remember to put a shortcut to Pig's posts when he does this. I could have set it to record while gone, but just totally forgot.
When I was a young railfan, the idea of a female railfan to date seemed like paradise to me and other young railfans, but I never knew one my own age. But we had a good idea WHY we were interested. The positive is obvious, but there was a negative reason it was attractive--we saw guys older than us hooking up and marrying, and it seemed that they suddenly could do a lot less railfanning, so the idea of marrying a "railfanette" seemed like we wouldn't have to choose between love or hobby.
There's another factor--people with a similar obsession don't always get along over the long term. And what if you're a BMT fan and she's an IND fan? (shudder)
So why would or wouldn't you want a railfan g/f? Those who are female railfans don't have to answer if they don't want to. :)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
After the show, we were trying where to go to eat when Mike's wife (who recently had surgery and was using a walker) suggested that we go to a spot next to the Harris Tower and do some train watching. Sue (mike's wife) tracked trains on the scanner while we watched. When it was too dark to see anything anymore, we headed back across the river to find a place to eat.
When Mike and Sue come to my house, Sue enjoys watching the trains on my layout and talks about Mike's collection. I'm sure Mike is quite happy having a female railfan as a life-partner. There's also another subtalker who's wife is very active with the TCA and enjoys her husband's hobby. My own wife was never thrilled with trains - maybe because it's also a job and something that not only occupies our basement but a fair part of our lives. However, when she was able, she enjoyed touring with me on my bike. I can tell you, first-hand that it's great to have friends who share your hobbies but having a spouse who shares it is the ultimate.
I don't think Pepe Le Pew ever said, "Le moo.":)
We also had chicken a lot on my first trip across the pond in 1977. When I got home, I made it clear that I didn't want to see, let alone eat any chicken for at least a month afterwards.
As for transit systems ridden, I rode on Rome's streetcars in 1977 as well as London's Tube, the Paris Metro and Amsterdam's #13 streetcar line.
And the fact that America wasn't even colonized until the Renaissance was well over. :)
Maybe because Franklin Ave is in Garden City and Mineola Blvd is in Mineola. Two different villages that don't think the same.
Bill "Newkirk"
And I can almost see that bridge from my window. It is a pretty good job. :P
Also, what's with the remaining construction. What else are they doing there?
And what the hell are they gonna do when the third track comes in, or do I need to go back to Mineola to see the obviously purposely added space for the track under the bridge?
Anyway, they'd have to raise the tracks up for a third track. Though subjecting Mineola to three tracks and gates down nearly all the time durring the rush isn't that bad an idea, IMHO...
Just remember--he has a list and he's checking it twice, he's knows who's been trolling and who's been nice.
So if you want an O-Scale Redbird in your stocking instead of a lump of coal for your Live Steamer, join me in wishing all A MERRY CHRISTMAS, A HAPPY AND HEALTHY NEW YEAR and ALL THE GOOD WISHES OF THE SEASON, no matter what holidays you celebrate! :)
I can't hear what you're trying to say. Come again?
Whoever wrote the story, which I heard first at 5:07am, got it right, saying, "Names of trains you're used to will be changing; on the Brighton Line what is now the Q and used to be the D will become the B!"
And I'm reporting the weather :-)
And that's Transit and Weather Together
Writers are completing the language for literally "thousands of pieces of literature," said Charles F. Seaton, a spokesman for the transit agency. Clearly, with the alphabet soup they are working with, they have their work cut out for them.
Try this potential line, for example: "The Brighton line, currently the Q, formerly the D, and soon to be the B, will now go up Sixth Avenue."
B - This train is a weekday only train. NYC Subway paired the weekday 145 st/Concourse local with the weekday Brighton Express.
You'll never see a B on the weekends.
D - This reroute will give West End riders 24/7 access to Manhattan for the first time since the BMT days. [At most points in time, these riders had to deal with shuttle trains on weekends and nights, now eliminated with full-time D service.]
N - Now that the line will return to being mostly an express line, maybe the service will be vastly improved.
Q [circle] - The only line to be left as-is.
W - A Manhattan-Queens Stepchild.
I look forward to it.
"D - This reroute will give West End riders 24/7 access to Manhattan for the first time since the BMT days. [At most points in time, these riders had to deal with shuttle trains on weekends and nights, now eliminated with full-time D service.]"
Only some people will have a one seat ride.. but I'm disappointed.
N Broadway Line
That's not entirely correct. The Q remains as is - 24/7 service between Coney Island and 57th St. via the Brighton Local, Manny B, and Broadway Express. The B replaces the diamond Q - between Bedford Park and Brighton Beach via 6th Ave. and the Brighton Express tracks. The D replaces the B as the full time West End line service - between Coney Island and 205th/Concourse via 6th Ave. So another way to put it is that the B and D are switching their traditional Brooklyn branch services that date back to the original Chrystie Street changeover in November 1967.
Forgive me if this is posted elsewhere in the thread, but:
1. The article seemed to indicate that Bay Ridge would get express service, but as far as I know the R is still going as a 4av local and through Montague Street.
2. Is supplementary M service returning to the West End?
3. Is it possible to route the F back to the 53rd Street Tunnel and have the Q use the 63rd Street Tunnel and operate in place of the V as a QB local so that 179th Street and vicinity people can get back their Lexington Avenue transfer, and possibly freeing up for Culver express service?
The Times seems to consider 59th St Bay Ridge.
2. Is supplementary M service returning to the West End?
It's there right now. It will continue rush hours only.
3. Is it possible to route the F back to the 53rd Street Tunnel and have the Q use the 63rd Street Tunnel and operate in place of the V as a QB local so that 179th Street and vicinity people can get back their Lexington Avenue transfer, and possibly freeing up for Culver express service?
It's certainly possible. But you'd increase crowding on the trains that use the 63rd St tunnel, thus undoing all the benefit of reduced crowding that the tunnel has provided. The current arrangement helps more people than it hurts. Any other arrangement, by comparison with the current, hurts more people than it helps.
Why will it be more comfortable? You make no sense.
As David of Broadway said in another response to my original post, #629002, there will be a net gain in terms of efficiency and service. Thus, there will be in general more contentment, and less vexation.
Certainly, the upcoming changes are a net benefit to the ridership as a whole, but some are better off now.
If service frequencies are increased, this is no big deal. The time I waste waiting for a train after just missing one (because the bus company refuses to write their schedule with the subway in mind even though it is primarily a feeder service) is more than the time I gain from riding the express. Also, in the morning, I always ride the local anyway to get a seat. In the afternoon, I take the local if it shows up first and peek at every express station to see if an express is coming. Plus, going downtown, a transfer to the B is available at Bleecker, not uptown.
This new service plan kicks ass.
Besides, how could New York's signature line bypass the entirety of New York's signature neighborhood?
The A stops in Midtown.
Really? As for myself, I usually call Flatbush Avenue "B41 Street."
But in any event, the article as written (and most articles like it) portray Brooklynites as cranky idiots. It will take the average Brooklynite about 30 seconds to figure it out.
But it's been the Brighton for 125 years, and still is.
Does that imply that there is room on the embankment for more tracks today, or did they remove some of it with the Manhattan Beach line? (I certainly never noticed extra room).
Got it right? I don't think so!That is saying that the B is gonna be the Brighton Lcl instead of the Brighton Exp that its gonna be.Then you gotta ask,what the heck is gonna happen to the Q? Rot and die? And what's gonna happen to Brighton Exp service?There wont be any?
Da Hui
The important thing will be for the literature mentioned in the story being prepared by the NYCTA to provide clear, understandable, accurate information.
I wonder if it will be in a multitude of languages, as was done with the Willy-B changes? Remember the Yiddish version? Oy vey!
Greenberger doesn't believe you. Probably a more modern example would have been the MannyB brochure from 2001 that was printed in a couple different languages, mainly Chinese and Russian.
You mean the WillyB?
Didn't your mother ever tell you not to do that!?!
ON TOPIC: My last report was sponsored by AIRTRAIN :-) Truly, Transit and Weather Together.
I wonder if these were M1/3 or M7 showers?
See here for all LIRR stations
Chuck Greene
Right now, it's signed up as a Grand Central-to-Grand Central Special.
Mark
Woodlawn-Jerome Avenue
Bronx
Utica Avenue
Brooklyn
(4) Lexington Av Express
When Alstom is able to deliver the rest of the Comet Vs, not before. In case you have not been following the news, Alstom declared bankruptcy recently and the French government is trying to bail them out. No definite date.
Correct, all of the cab cars (of which there are 32) and 45 of the trailer cars, interestingly (do not know car numbers offhand). IMHO, all of the Comet Is should have been converted to dual-platform use, because keeping a sizeable number of the fleet for low-level platforms only reduces flexibility in terms of what parts of the system you can use the cars on (e.g. the low-platform Comet Is are obviously useless at high platforms and passengers are consequently “streetcar’d” through the one door of the cab car).
Of course, NJ Transit does not plan well enough for all eventualities – when it came to the Arrow III rebuild, they were not equipped with automatic variable-tap transformers so that they could operate as Midtown Direct trains (but that is just one problem with that rebuild, because those MUs should have also had “long doors” to permit closed-door operation at low-platform stations as well as retaining their original ability to run at 100 mph)…
They are limited to 80MPH because of their tendency to rip down catenary, correct? Barring that, they still have the get-up-and-go to hit 100MPH, right?
They are limited to 80MPH because of their tendency to rip down catenary, correct?
Incorrect; it is related to the new wheel trucks (or the wheels themselves). If it were the pantographs, then the Arrows would have been slowed down to 80 mph prior to the rebuild, which they were not. The HP to hit 100 mph is still in there, even more so with the new AC traction, but the wheels won’t be able to take it. The Arrows have yet another rebuild planned for them (in which they will get the automated transformer-tap capability plus long doors), but that has not yet been scheduled or funds released.
Not a good situation. They need the Comet IV cars NOW!
Last night we took the bus to and from Mass (too rainy to walk, too difficult to park).
This morning, I found a copy of "A Railroad Atlas of the United States in 1946, Volume 1 The Mid-Atlantic States" under the tree. (The kids liked their gifts too, including a subway umbrella).
And, this afternoon, everyone's coming to my house (no travel) and we are having a pork roast rather than beef.
Merry Christmas to all.
My computer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
My digital camera!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Get your mind out of the gutter!!!!!!
At least you won't be going to hell for it.
I did very well.
I did very well.
They were a gift, I didn't pay for them.
SimCity 4
How about you?
Have a Happy Holiday
wayne
For Chanukah, so far, I've gotten a train puzzle (shaped like a steam locomotive), a couple of miscellaneous RR-themed tschotkes (including a nice-sounding wind chime), and forgiveness from my wife for spending way too much money on trolley books for myself this past year.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Planning on getting up early tomorrow, doing some late morning railfanning (which I never do, I usually go in the late afternoon), and blow all that money and the gift card.
Cannibal! (pork tastes like people)
Of course, you don't have to eat mammal, you just think you do. You can live fine eating poultry, fish, eggs and nuts.
Rumor has it that a man in Los Angeles spent 14 years on a diet consisting entirely of scotch whiskey, hard-boiled eggs and Hostess Twinkies, and remained in perfect health.
BTW, I got a new computer chair for the holidays...I'm using it right now as I type away here.
Incidentally, whatever else we all may have gotten for Christmas, Chanukah or Kwannza, all I can say is that I would sincerely hope that our fellow SubTalker, LincolN, got a gift of LONG PANTS for the holidays! :-)
I finally have a Monday thru Friday job, no holidays and all the OT I can work. I got to hang out with my fellow Branford brothers and sisters last Saturday and Sunday up at Shoreline. And I have two healthy twin nephews that get bigger every two weeks that I see them. Of course for tradition, Arrow III Senior(Big Jimmy-my Dad) sent me a George Foreman grill, the only material gift I recieved, so I should rephrase the previous. What more can a guy ask for?
Happy Holidays and Regards,
Jimmy
A very useful item, but a bit of a pain to clean.
BTW, I enjoy your transit photos in Southern California. I'm a red car fan from way back and even rode the Long Beach line once when I was a kid. Thanks for keeping us up to date on what things look like out there.
I wish I had taken pictures back then in the early 70's but I didn't. At the time, the SCRTD, as it was called, ran old and new look GMC's and Flxibles around the city. They had some neat-sounding V-8 powered Flxibles for suburban use to the San Fernando and San Gabriel valleys and they were running some old look suburban GMC's with high seats out to Pomona, Riverside, and San Bernardino. The Orange Empire Trolley Museum, as it was called then, was in it's infancy but used to go out there whenever I could. Still have a box of bus maps and schedules around here somewhere from those days.
Thanks, again, for all of your great photography. I will be looking at your pictures in more detail as time permits.
It gets worse, next go to WWW.scientificamerican.com, do a search on Mad Cow. You'll get 25 hits on articals in SciAm . The deer heard is the worst.
We are in for troubled times, and are being stonewalled.
Avid Reader
I was on the Brooklyn bridge platform walking towards the stairs, when a " 4 TO NEW LOTS AV" pulls in. I got the announcements for a new lots 4 without staying out late, and got a car where the people were tired and not making noise, as well as there were no people giving me the "what are you doing" look, which would have forced me to give the "WTF are you looking at" look in return.
I lucked out and got some stuff in my size - without looking too hard at Express, finally found some shoes that I freakin love at Aldo, as well as lots of uber cheap stuff on sale at The Gap. I discovered the village location of Yellow Rat Bastard as well as, where Selvedge was ( I had been looking for it and had walked past it several times over preceeding days).
A nice Woohooo! :D
here,s the link:
http://www.mta.info/nyct/service/subsrvnweekend.htm
til next time
1]PATH returns to the WTC
2]Secaucus Junction opens
3]JFK Airtrain fianlly opens
4]LACMTA Gold Line opens
5]SEPTA opens the Frankford Transportation Center
6]Retirement of the Redbirds
7]Debut of the PCC-2 [or Britney Spears wearing Betty Grable's Swimsuit]
8]Staten Island Ferry Crash and unfolding scandal
9] David Gunn's putting the hammer down at AMTRAK
10]Miami Metrorail goes 24/7.
Hudson Bergen Light rail opens 22nd street terminal so Steveblue2003 would only have to walk 5 minutes to the train. ;-)
1]NJT finally opens the River Line - First diesel LRT in the USA
2]WMATA opens Blue Line Extension - or more places to find a deer riding the trains
3]Houston opens their LRT jist in time for the SUPER BOWL
4] Boston's Type 8 finally goes into revenur service without problems
What other 2004 headlines can you predict?
http://www.shagrat.net/Html/cows.htm
Chuck Greene
2. NJT River line opens
3. Manhatthan Bridge re-opens
and my favorite...
Redbirds back in revenue service on 7 for Centennial
... and whatever other transit shenanigans can happen... maybe the M4s will actually get new plush seats (soft, but not that pitiful dirt trap fabric they have now), or SEPTA officials get drunk and order a new BSS fleet...
The return of the Full Manhattan Bridge Service that hasn't happen since Ronald Regan was a President
Increase of Subway Surfing activities resulted in two deaths in 2003
MTA bookeepers were arrested and charged with embezzlement and fraud.
V Train has shown improvement in ridership
I can understand your belief that they have committed fraud, but where do you get the libelous claim that they committed embezzlement?
Happy Holidays
"He (4traintowoodlawn) claims he's 11 years old (which I think is a lie)."
I am completely honest... to my family, my relatives, my friends, my friends at SubTalk, all around.
>Listen up Sir Ronald, I am 11 years old and you'd better believe it, because I don't go on this board to lie. Just because I have better grammar and spelling (as complimented by ( 1 ) South Ferry ( 9 )) than other SubTalkers (I never boast or gloat about it) doesn't mean I can't be a regular pre-teen (although I do act like a bit of an adult, as I enjoy cleaning mom's kitchen, organizing mom's house, and vacuuming mom's house, occasionally.
P.S.: I have a dad, but I don't do that stuff over there. If you learned a little more about my life, you'd learn that dad (who used to be a great money-making team with mom) REALLY messed up his life by getting this witch of a woman named Ingrid. Dad has become meaner, they are not a good relationship, and Ingrid makes me sick (not sickness-wise).
Well CC, just like you said once, "Hell yeah, those were the days, my friends!!" Indeed they were.
However, mom has a new man (circa 1996, I think) named Chris and they have a great relationship (they RARELY fight).
That's not acting like an adult, that's acting like... well, I'll stop now.
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
Email me the next time you're around here. Monkmonk438@hotmail.com
I also enjoy the off-kilter commentary by our Unca Kev (Selkirk) and the photographs linked or inserted here into SubTalk by our more talented brethren...SubTalk's much like that line from the theme to 'Cheers': everyone knows your name...
There are a lot of people here that I consider my friends(which may scare the crap out of a few of those people, and disgust the others). CC 8TH AVE. LOCAL, GP38Chris, Salaamallah, steveboatti, Kevin Walsh, DR. Funk, Emfinate, G1Ravage, G1Ravage's Dad, and lots of others, God bless you guys.
CONSUME CONSUME TO CONSUME IS TO BE AMERICAN TO SAVE IS TO BE A TERRORIST OBEY CONSUME CONSUME OBEY
wayne
Something has to pay for those colleges where young radicals learn to be tomorrow's ruling class.
Anyway, one of my nicest Christmas memories is when I was a Railroad Clerk working extra at Far Rockaway from 6AM to 2PM and watching the sky light up and listening to the Back festival on WKCR (which is on right now) while an occasional passenger came through. This is all pre-Metrocard and the R10s were still running.
avid
http://www.mta.info/nyct/service/pdf_f/01_wma3.pdf
Manhattan-bound W trains run express on the N from Stillwell Avenue to 36 Street.
It says that trains will stop at New Utrecht Avenue, and that people who want to go to 9 Av, Ft Hamilton Pkwy, 50 Street and 55 Street should take the N to New Utrecht Avenue and transfer to a Manhattan-bound W. For 71 and 79 Sts, 18 and 20 Aves, Bay Pkwy, 25 Ave and Bay 50 Street, take the W to Stillwell Avenue and transfer to a Manhattan-bound W.
This all doesn't sound right. Does anyone want to try to decode this?
For one thing, if the W is running express and it will stop at New Utrecht Avenue, then it has to run on the E2 (local) track, right?
But the point is moot. The W will be using the express track.
That same service advisory is almost always incorrect on that same point. For a few months it appeared correctly, but the error crept back.
Manhattan-bound W trains run express on the N...
For 71 and 79 Sts, 18 and 20 Aves, Bay Pkwy, 25 Ave and Bay 50 Street, take the W to Stillwell Avenue and transfer to a Manhattan-bound W.
OK here's your first and worst mistake. If the Manhattan-bound W is running express on the N, it will not be stopping at W stations, so many passengers will end up going around in circles.
Second, there's no way the W can run express over the N and stop at New Utrecht, unless they've erected a temporary platform, complete with a temporary overpass to the other platform.
Now it’s certainly a good thing that the Manhattan Bridge will be reopening…but (and I am sure that I missed this earlier) is there a sensible reason to put the B on the Brighton Line and the D on the West End Line? (which is what this article claims will happen.) The Q on the Brighton Line will be the local while the B will be the express; the Q will remain on the Broadway Line.
The N train will revert to being an express train on Broadway also. Grand Street on the B and D will reopen.
What gets me is flipping the B and D lines in Brooklyn. Who made that decision? What are the benefits, if any? or will it merely make things more confusing (my late father would have a fit if he heard about that, for sure).
The benefit is matching two part time lines (B train in Manhattan/Bronx with Brighton Express) and two full time lines (D in Manhattan/Bronx with West End).
It's really only a letter change for the great majority of riders. The only ones to be negatively impacted would be those who took the former D from the Brighton Line to north of 125th Street or former B trains riders who took that train from the West End to local stations on Central Park West. I think people will adjust.
Yes there is: The Gold Street Interlocking.
Sure there is. It is in the tunnel under Flatbush Avenue Extension, right where the Old Myrtle Avenue Station was.
What you are complaining aobut is the fact that Broadway could not access the North Tracks, tracks that they used to use up until the Christie Mistake was built. so there is no reason why that connection could not have been left in place, except for the fact that it is not needed and is a major obstruction to traffic flow when both sides are in service. And the design did not conemplate bridge lines being out of service.
So now, looking at the new line ups, and yes we did discuss them to death and back to life again...
Each line needs a 24/7 service. That service is Local in Brooklyn
Each line could have a 16/5 service, that service is Express in Brooklyn. The Express may short turn short of Coney Island.
You could play with it any way you like, and my proposal *was* different, the theirs is just as good. it is:
(Q) Broadway Express to Coney Island via Brighton Local 24/7
(B) 6th Avenue Express to Brighton Beach via Brighton Express 16/5
(D) 6th Avenue Express to Coney Island via West End 24/7
(M) Nassau Street to 9th Ave or Bay Parkway (Rush) 16/5
(N) Broadway Express to Coney Island via Sea Beach 24/7
(R) Broadway Local to 95th Street via 4th Aveneue Local
Do you see any symetry in this. There are two Express Broadway Services, one of them 24/7 and there are two 6th Avenue Express Services, one of them 24/7.
West End does lose it's direct connection to Broadway, and this I do not like, you would have to change at Pacific Street for the (N), but if your destination is south of Canal Street, then you would need the (M) anyway.
I do not think that there are any tweeks that I might suggest that would make a major improvement to service on these lines.
Now for the Culver Line... Yes, I got a plan...
: ) Elias
Heading outbound, change to a Brighton train at the previous station (Grand St or Canal St, respectively).
Agreed.
The N should NOT skip Dekalb on weekends. If it does to begin with, the MTA will probably change it soon enough.
I meant to say the D shouldn't skip Dekalb on weekends. Because if it did, it would be annoying to get from 6th Ave to the Brighton Line.
Yes. My mistake.
But I still can't help but wonder why the opportunity wasn't taken to rationalize the Concourse services. The part-time Brighton express should have been linked up with the part-time Concourse express and the full-time West End should have been linked up with the full-time Concourse local. Right now, Concourse local passengers have to memorize the schedule to know if they should take the B or the D.
As for my 2 cents on the Manhatthan Bridge flop: Its about damn time the Broadway Express isnt subjected to the MTA's step child service.
This is just what I wanted. Though I'm sure sir Mophead won't be pleased.
You can say that again.
Prior to 7/22/01, both B and D service were available to Grand Street in Manhattan, 7 days a week. Now with the upcoming service plan, Grand Street customers suffer a 50% loss of weekend service, the B will not be running on weekends, in addition to nights.
I am not being picky, just pointing out the flaw in the article.
The Times did not say "full time B and D service."
Then again, it's not only the C. I've seen 30-minute gaps on the 1 in the morning rush, and not only were there no announcements, but the S/A insisted that all was fine. A few days ago, there were two announcements during a 10-minute gap at the peak of the morning rush, but the PA system cut out during most of the first announcement, and the second was made as an express was passing through, so I never did find out what happened. (It had something to do with an incident at 137th Street, not that an incident at 137th Street should deprive 86th Street of service.)
Knowing these three facts, how will the R160s compensate for being approximately 120 feet short of typical 600 feet IND platforms, when they enter IND service? Will they be 75 footers, or in 10 car ABBBA sets?
Or am I just wrong about everything =)?
-Julian
Are you male or female?
Julian of Norwich (1342-1416), nun and mystic.
Avid
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Is this because doors at end of car must remain locked?
Here's to what is arguably the coolest railroad font ever used!!
Railfan Trip Photos 3
Railfan Trip Photos 3 (But you can access all 3 albums if you like)
Some questions:
I have two photos regarding the Coney Island reconstruction.
1. What is the brick building going to become that is raised above the platforms?
2. What is the keenly intricate structure that serves as an overhang to the platforms and tracks behind the brick building?
til next time
Does this matter or are all trains 'ambidextrous' ?
Presumably all NY motor cars will couple with one another. On some systems where the track layout will not allow trains to be 'turned round' couplings are simplified by having some circuits on the left side and others on the right.
A very hard-core form of body piercing among women :)
A junction where the branch line is accessible from both directions on the main line without a reverse move.
No. At least the Metropolitan Line and the East London Section still use A Stock, which has A and D ends.
R32: Either it's fresh from Pitkin, or Jamaica made a booboo.
Perhaps it's related to the signal power failure along Central Park West that another SubTalker reported around the same time.
David
Avid
Skrimping and saving to surprise is what it is all about!
This shit has no place on Subtalk and its people like you, and the other Aryans and racists out there thats the reason this country is in the mess it's in. Your issues with white people are your buisness, but don't bring that shit over here/
I liked Lionel Jefferson putting on Archie Bunker about the black-white blood transfusion business : What if he went down South ? He wouldn't know which bathroom to use ! and Archie took him seriously.
"To Sir, With Love" : Mark (Sidney Poitier) scratches himself. One kid says, "Ooh look, blood !" ana another rebuts, "What did you expect, ink ?"
"Sure, but would you let your sister date, or even marry, one ?"
Your statement equates that with the sameful attitude that we must prejudice all Germans for the Holocaust and were must end "German Supremacy"
Oh I forgot! Are you Caucasian or White? If you are white, is your skin color tone as a gallon of while paint? So stop talking about white trash you mushroom head! (PG-13 rated term for something else)
Children of mixed ancestry do not automatically look "mixed." Some can be, while others look more like one parent or the other. Meiosis can result in some interesting combinations.
I've known some interracial couples. Their children, now young adults, are gorgeous.
in essentially the same time span!
Draw your own conclusions!
When I was new on Subtalk, I posted a complaint about off topic political posts, and you flamed me royally. You pointed out that the extent of participation spoke for itself. Your point was well taken, and I no longer complain about the 90% of irrelevant posts on this board, nor do I read many of them.
Happy winter solstice!
Bob
BTW, did you count the two I just posted?
I have read most, if not all, of your signal posts. I hereby request that you prepare additional material of your choosing which Dave Pirmann could add to his FAQ section or to the signaling primer.
Your signaling descriptions are an asset to this site.
True. But only about a dozen people are responsible for most of those posts.
Meanwhile, in addition to the thread on cab signaling, there are threads on chaining, the Manhattan Bridge, Septa, the massive #7 line GO, reversal of train direction, M7s on Metro North, a W GO, the Mineola Blvd overpass, HBLR, and other topics.
And this is a fairly light set of pickings compared to what's usually being discussed.
I personally am finding SubTalk boring right now, and there's definitely more garbage than usual at the moment, but there's still substance even in the worst of times.
http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/historical/1951_a.jpg
You'll see it as a spur going north from the Fordham Road stop ...
The el was extended from Fordham Road to Bronx Park over land that had belonged to, and has since reverted to, Fordham University, along the east side of the Harlem line, in 1902.
The Bronx Park station was approximately opposite Oliver Place, north of 198th St. There was a walkway to the park, which survived long after the el was demolished, until the Rose Hill Apartments were built (early 1980s?). I'm pretty sure there had also been a walkway over the Harlem line to Webster Ave., which did not survice the demolition of the Bronx Park station.
The Webster Ave. extension was a Dual Contracts line, which opened around 1920. Originally, it was operated as a shuttle from Fordham Road to Gun Hill Rd. or 241st St. I think, but again I'm not sure, that in later years the extension was the main service, and Fordham Road-Bronx Park the shuttle.
The Bronx Park station closed in 1951; the rest of the Bronx Third Ave. el in 1973.
Michael Wares
Why in the world would they object to a one seat ride to mid-town or downtown? Even the rich folks in Riverdale (at least most) need to work (at least a few days per week)
Voting against the incumbents.
Why in the world would they object to a one seat ride to mid-town or downtown?
There's the incorrect perception that it attracts an unpleasant element.
But why are they wrong? For the people who live in Riverdale (except for the children and teenagers), it was their choice to live there. If they want to live in an area without subways, why shouldn't they?
I also doubt that a subway extension would increase Riverdale property values sufficiently.
But those people are only hurting themselves with those things, and building a subway for them does not necessarily mean they would use it.
And they CITY, for its part tried to corral the neighborhood. Somewhere in the last 40's, early 50's, Riverdale Avenue was regraded in anticipation of subway construction. On the "hill" up to Riverdale, there's a wall along the western side of the street with a "ramp" that connects alongside it to streets on the top of the hill and reconnects at the bottom. It used to be called "the ramp" ... prior to the regrading of the hill, Riverdale Avenue actually followed the higher "ramp" road with a VERY steep hill down from it. The regrading and construction of the retaining wall was done to facilitate a more gentle grade for the subway to follow.
But you're right, the residents on the hill consistently didn't WANT a subway coming up and "bringing in the wrong element." I was shocked and dismayed when I visited Riverdale in the 1970's only to find that a bunch of idjits in station wagons had formed a "Riverdale Security" vigilante squad ... yipe. :(
Once the "el" left Fordham, it proceeded about 300' or so, then swung across the New York Central (now Metro-North) Railroad, running over Webster Avenue from about 194th Street.
3 AM Thursday to midnight Friday
So according to the G.O., it's only until Midnight Friday and not Midnight Saturday. If I am correct, then why are the N and V lines mentioned as alternate lines to/from Manhattan?
Should I say DUH?
This weekend's G.O. on the 4 and 5 lines required THREE posters:
1. No 5 service below 149th St/GC
2. S/B 4 trains bypass 138th St/GC
3. 4 trains end at 125th Street in Manhattan in both directions.
And keep in mind, this is all on one single G.O.
Given the large WEEKDAY banner in the corner, the mention of January 2, and the inclusion of express service and N/V service, it's fairly obvious how the ambiguity is to be resolved.
Also, notice that, beginning Saturday at 12:01am, another GO kicks in. The two probably run into each other.
So, in effect, the line is closed for four consecutive days between Grand Central and Times Square. Why? It's obvious that something substantial is going on or it wouldn't be done over a weekday.
So was this LATE NIGHT banner on this poster.
(Sorry, I got lost in all this ambiguitiousness talk)
... is incorrect too. The correct (un)equivocal 12-hour usages are 12.00 noon and 12.00 midnight.
No it doesn't. Here's an extract from the licensing regulations for Private Hire cars in the City of Portsmouth:
"EXTRA CHARGES
HM Naval Base entry 50p
Sunday hiring (between 0700 and 2200) 50p
Night-time hiring (between 2200 and 0700) 50p
Fouling of vehicle by passenger or animal 30
Carriage of between 2 and 4 passengers 20p maximum
Carriage of between 5 and 8 passengers 20p each passenger
Carriage of any item(s) outside the passenger compartment 20p maximum
Bank and Public Holidays will be meter rate plus 50% except for:
1800-2400 on Christmas Eve meter rate plus 50%
0001-2400 on Christmas Day meter rate plus 100%
0001-0600 on Boxing Day meter rate plus 100%
0601-2400 on Boxing Day meter rate plus 50%
0001-0600 on 27 December meter rate plus 50%
1800-2400 on New Year's Eve meter rate plus 50%
0001-2400 on New Year's Day meter rate plus 100%
0001-0600 on 2 January meter rate plus 50%"
The new day shouldn't be any different.
This is totally consistent with the new day.
So according to the G.O., it's only until Midnight Friday and not Midnight Saturday.]
That confusion is why I'd rather see "11:59PM" or "12:01AM" rather than "Midnight."
I think some transit properties with late night service use 11:59 PM or 12:01 AM, I know SCRTD (and later LACMTA) did on their late night bus schedules, there would be a route with times 9 PM, 10 PM, 11 PM and then 11:59 PM, followed by 1 AM, etc. (Though I suspect the B/O didn't actually leave until Midnight) :)
If you stack up the weekend shutdowns, the holiday slowdown, and the overnights, the 7 is virtually useless this side of QBP. Hunter's Point might as well be Montauk. We have to walk to Court Square, or wait for the shuttle bus (which is like waiting for the Q33). And this is no longer for repairing the elevated structures; I believe it's all signal work. The only nice surprise I've had lately was the day of the big snowstorm, when they suspended a G/O and I was actually able to go somewhere.
Browse through this no-frills directory for more photos and for a movie!
Today it seems that all 7 trains are terminating at Grand Central, but they're running at increased headways -- 15 minutes is my estimate. They're all turning on the Times Square-bound track -- the Queens-bound track is occupied by the crew train(?). Trains leave Grand Central very slowly, and stay that way until the entire train has crossed to the proper track. WD's?
Most passengers at Times Square had little trouble understanding what was going on, but Grand Central was a different story. I didn't see a single poster and I didn't hear a single announcement. (There were posters on the trains, but for the wrong GO, and most of the signs were set to Times Square.) Since all trains were using the Times Square-bound track, about half my car ended up in Queens unwittingly and had to be directed to the W at Queensboro Plaza to get back to Manhattan.
Only the usual two shuttles were running, and they were crowded. The W didn't seem to have any extra service.
As usual, B Division crews weren't informed of the GO. At 42/6, I corrected a C/R on the D who was trying to direct a passenger to Times Square via the 7.
Tomorrow's going to be interesting.
Taken this morning at the 52nd Street-Lincoln Avenue station.
Not true this morning, as my train was going only as far as Hunters Point Avenue. There was surprisingly little confusion and none of the usual "and I gotta pay two dollars for this s***," though there were a handful of people waiting for an express train.
According to the G.O., #7 express service in Queens is suspended today.
I figured they'd have to run trains light to HPA to turn them at QbP, as stated on the advisory; I guess they decided to keep them in service. As at Grand Central, I don't understand why they didn't use the Flushing-bound track to reduce confusion.
The truth is out there....
Other than politicians, maybe. ;-)
Where is such a station as "Boro Line" under 76th Street?
But as someone pointed out, that is clearly a latter day picture (headlights, paint scheme) after which such a sign (if it existed) would have been removed.
Looking forward to both MOD trips this weekend, see you there. If not, then have a great weekend.
By the way, you gotta go to Branford when Tunnel Rat Steve Krokowski is there. He'll convince you.
The only thing Steve has ever convinced me of is that he's a krok full of $&*! :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It's clearly a fake. OTOH there's a sucker born every minute...
avid
How about one for the "real" intended western terminal of the 14th St. Canarsie Line?
Bring your proff!! I AM! WOO HOO!
Where was the Western terminal of the 14th St line meant to be?
Anyway I think Dave Barry said he was the head of the TA.
Sarge, are you aware that you almost described Heypaul? :-)
Hey! Does Heypaul ride on the IRT ???????
(Ain't no Arnines on that line, you know)
: ) Elias
He sure can: via the Franklin Avenue Shuttle. (But, of course)
:-)
He received jail time.
Why? If I had been shot but was still capable of moving, I would attempt to fight off the person who shot me, I would exploit any weakness that I could. If I was the shooter, I would do whatever to prevent that from happening. Of course, I would also shut up while shooting.
Incidentally it is Cobey NOT CoBey...
Tho to some it's become secondhand to post our OT epilogues on here...
Kinda convenient in an (unrelated) way....
Did the A ever run in the Bronx since 1932? Or was Fischler referring to the C/CC? Or was it simply a mistake by Fischler?
avid
It should read:
179,Qns(hillside/Queens blvd express)->8th Avenue express->Fulton express,bklyn->The Rockaways,Qns
During rush hours ONLY, when the "E" was extended to Euclid Ave and the Rockaways, it always ran EXPRESS along 8th Avenue.
Also, there were various times when the "E" was the Fulton Street local (approximately from 1971 to 1976)
It would have been great if there were a 4-borough train, and clearly it is feasible, but I personally remember back to 1959 and from what I've read, no train went from the Concourse to beyond Euclid Avenue.
That was the "CC", not "C" that went from the Hudson Terminal to the Bronx. The "BB" never went to the Bronx.
BEDFORD PARK BOULIVARD( Bronx) to 116th st. ROCKAWAY PARK (Queens)
This train was ALL LOCAL via Grand Concourse local(Bronx) via Cetral Park West local(Manhattan) via 8th. ave local(Manhattan) via Fulton St.local (Brooklyn) via The Rockaways (Queens) Final terminal ---Rockaway Park
DD was used during a 1962 water main break that shut down subway service (thus combining this with another thread).
FF was the superexpress version of the PLAY train.
Here's a brochure which shows the "DD" service.
#3 West End Jeff
Sherlock
"The Brighton line, currently the Q, formerly the D, and soon to be the B, will now go up Sixth Avenue."
HUH? Q Train is a former D Train and will became a B train.
I assumed he may said Circle Q train will become the B.
Isn't it suppose to be "Diamond Q Train will soon become the B," I mean Circle Q Train was a former D Train
He did it again
"Other winners include user of the Brighton line (see above currently the Q, formerly the D, soon to be the B).....Now, they will still have the option of the local Q up Broadway or they can take the B train up Avenue of the American.
Okay, If he said Q (formerly D) will become the B, then what is local Q? Diamond Q??? If he had said Diamond Q, formerly the orange Q, soon be the B. Then the reader would understand. Look like Mr. LUO didn't specify Q and B correctly.
Better to stay with a basic "D via West End at all times" sort of thing. It's easy to say, it's easy to understand, and there's no room for error.
I agree with you and Paul.
When arriving at the station, West End riders should be greeted with a sign that says "West End service will be provided by the 'D' train running on the 6th Avenue Express line. For Broadway Express service to Times Square, transfer to the N at Pacific."
Sea Beach riders should be told "N trains will be running express to Midtown via the Manhattan Bridge all times except late nights. For service to Lower Manhattan, transfer to the R or M at Pacific Street."
Etc.
The best think that they could do is have automated announcements in several languages on the trains and stations for the first week. That would benefit not only those who do not read the newspaper but also those who do not read at all. But I don't think we are there yet as far as the technology.
Not just signs, though. How about line-specific brochures, distributed in stations and mass-mailed to the affected zip codes?
With the new Manhattan Bridge Service pattern, the Brighton line which is now served by the Q (formerly the D) remain unchange; diamond Q (formerly 6th Ave Q Express) will become the B which will travel to/from Sixth Avenue."
Other winners including the Brighton line riders will have the option of the Q local via Broadway or the B 6th Ave express Avenue of the American reach their destination, to/from Manhattan and Broolyn.
For the young'ins in this audience....go do a search on 'Lenny Bruce' on the internet as it's too involved to go into the whole thing here unless someone else cares to do it.
avid
We shall find out.
Use the D-Types on that trip - that should do the trick ;-)
The 76th Street mystery has been solved: IT DOESN'T EXIST. Those that believe it does simply do so because they ignore all evidence to the contrary and because of poor understanding of basic logical principles. Believing in 76th Street is an act of faith, like believing in God, except that 76th Street didn't create the world, doesn't pronounce judgment on people for their good deeds and sins and doesn't control the world. I highly doubt anybody has been spiritually enlightened by a belief in 76th Street.
Here is how each side processes the issue:
Doesn't exist: There has been no convincing evidence to demonstrate that 76th Street exists, every piece of evidence put forth by the other side is easily disproved.
Exists: 76th Street exists, someone told me that it does, and nobody has ever proven otherwise.
The problem with assuming that something exists without first proving such is that anything can be said to exist.
Let's look at the evidence that tries to show that 76th Street exists and debunk each point.
The IND intended to extend further underneath Pitkin Avenue past Euclid Avenue, the next stop was to have been 76th Street
TRUE, but since the IND didn't build the full extension, it seems silly that they would build one stop, unsuited for use as a terminal.
76th Street exists on the Euclid model board
TRUE, but so what? The model board also says that Cross Bay is the next tower to the east. That is obviously not true. That section of the model board is not active. It only proves that the IND had intentions of an extension (which no one doubts) and planned for it by building their expensive model board to include it rather than replacing it later with another expensive unit.
Trains have served 76th Street, briefly
FALSE, the newspapers would have covered it. Their is no incentive to anyone for covering such a thing up.
The IND built the tunnels long before the stations and tracks because WWII delayed the latter. By the time it was complete, 76th was retained as a shell.
FALSE (well, the second part is false). If 76th was built as a shell for the original plan, why was it not completed when the wartime shortages were over? And if it wasn't needed because plans were already underway for connecting to the Liberty Avenue El, then why wall off 76th Street as purported? As the Second Avenue Subway has taught us, even unused segments of tunnel need to be inspected and maintained.
76th Street exists on old R-1/9 rollisgns.
FALSE. No reputable source has reported this, all photographic evidence of such is a clear forgery.
Of course, no matter how many points I bring up, there will always be the people who want to believe their lies.
It's nice to see that there's someone else here who believes as I do.
This is untrue. If you really study things deep down, you will see how imperfect they are.
Why is most DNA, junk DNA? Why does junk DNA even exist?
Why are the photoreceptors in the human eye backwards?
Why do people have tailbones?
Those that say that the universe is perfect really don't know much about the universe.
But whether we go to heaven or hell or in limbo or nothing at all after this is something I just don't know. It is in the same category as "ghosts", and UFO's. It may be true, it may not. No one can prove either way.
This is wrong. And I thought you were agreeing with me. If you can't prove something exists, then it doesn't. Ghosts and all that do not need to be disproved because they were never proposed based on rational scientific principles, they cannot be shown to exist.
Check out either of these sites
http://www.alienufoart.com/BillMart.htm
www.coasttocoastam.com
What would be the point? It wouldn't be useful as a terminal, so the only way it would be completed is if they intended to build the entire line, which they no longer did.
And if it wasn't needed because plans were already underway for connecting to the Liberty Avenue El, then why wall off 76th Street as purported?
That's an interesting question. I don't know why they walled it off, but that's not really relevant.
As the Second Avenue Subway has taught us, even unused segments of tunnel need to be inspected and maintained.
Yes, and also the Polo Grounds Shuttle tunnel. But IINM it was backfilled, so what is there to maintain?
I think we can all agree there is something beyond the wall, but what, nobody knows. I don't think they would've wasted the effort to backfill and wall off a short section of tunnel culminating in another wall, so there must be more to it.
We can argue this forever, but neither side will be satisfied until someone digs a hole in the street at 76th & Pitkin to see what, if anything, is down there. And that's never going to happen, so this argument will continue forever.
Then why would it have been built in the first place? Unlike other second system provisions, the construction of an extension after the fact isn't a big obstacle.
That's an interesting question. I don't know why they walled it off, but that's not really relevant.
Yes it is, if you cannot demonstrate a reason for walling it off, then it hasn't been walled off, therefore, it must either be visible, or it must not exist.
Yes, and also the Polo Grounds Shuttle tunnel. But IINM it was backfilled, so what is there to maintain?
Sand doesn't bear structural loads well.
I think we can all agree there is something beyond the wall, but what, nobody knows.
Speak for yourself. I do not agree that there is anything beyond the wall.
We can argue this forever, but neither side will be satisfied until someone digs a hole in the street at 76th & Pitkin to see what, if anything, is down there. And that's never going to happen, so this argument will continue forever.
This is the height of stupidity. Nobody has ever seen an electron. That doesn't mean that they don't exist.
The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle states that we can never observe an electron because the very act of doing so changes its properties.
We can only have faith that it exists based on its effects on things around it. We have never actually seen one.
--Mike.
not being recently inspected does not mean it does not exist. This is but one example.
An old TA phone book (1967) says there is a EA box near the portal going toard the PROPOSED 76 Street station. How much of the station was actually built is debateable. At most I believe that that exists is a station shell. Not much more that anything beyound that.
Maybe the line east of Euclid Ave was planned for the IND Second System. Stations were planned for the line going to Aqueduct. But not much of the line IF ANY was actually built. Just like the upper level at Utica/Fulton. A platform shell exits there. But the station is far from finished or the route completed.
The IND built the tunnels long before the stations and tracks because WWII delayed the latter. By the time it was complete, 76th was retained as a shell.
That's probably what happened. After WW2 plans were scaled back and the connection to Grant Ave and Lefferts was retained and the rest of the route was abondoned.
And I wouldn't put no faith in the pictures with A trains signed as destination "76 Street-Ozone Park"
So what. The book doesn't say it's in the station, and it clearly says proposed. If the station was there, it would probably say abandoned or disused.
How much of the station was actually built is debateable.
No it isn't. We've debated the matter, all claims that 76th Street are irrational and fail even when subjected to simple logical principles.
At most I believe that that exists is a station shell.
Believe in Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny all you want. That doesn't mean that those things actually exist. Believing in 76th Street is exactly the same.
By the time it was complete, 76th was retained as a shell.
No it wasn't. 76th Street was never built. Euclid was clearly indicated as the terminal for the first system plan. There is no reason for 76th Street to have been built.
The other argument is that Robert Moses halted the expansion of the line, but the outcome is the same.
There was a 76th Street station planned as part of a line which would have extended farther out into Queens. It was diagrammed on the model board for one of the interlocking towers, which some have taken as proof of its existance. A provision for that branch was begun but never completed; the wall at the end of the tunnel header looks like it was constructed later than the lining, leading to speculation that the tunnel continues beyond that point, possibly backfilled. Some have claimed that there is a completely tiled station, a la the never-used Roosevelt Avenue terminal station, back there; others claim there is a shell. At least one person claims that tracks were laid and non-revenue service actually operated there for a brief period, primarily for train storage. None of the people who claim to have seen it can provide photographs thereof, however, nor can they offer any other form of proof that it exists.
IMHO it's all pure B.S. It was planned, yes... but never built.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"Page last updated 1 April 2002."
And nobody gotta cut a check for Geraldo. :)
http://www.ltvsquad.com/
I think the English system works more in line with the human brain. In you mind you can envision dividing things into quarters, halfs, even thirds; but not tenths.
This is one time where I feel we have it right and the rest of the world is nuts. But then again we are not alone, I believe Burma and two small African republics still use the English system.
Along with mnemonic chaining codes, ranging from a good old Great Western sense of self-importance (MLN = Main LiNe - i.e. Paddington to Penzance) and the purely descriptive (e.g. XTD - Charing X To Dover, VIR - VIctoria to Ramsgate) to the utterly whimsical (DRN = DRaiN - the Waterloo & City Line!).
Americans only don't like the metric system because we were born with the stupid system. Tradition is no reason for anything.
Lastly, as for that highway in De., those folks were just dumb. If they were just about anywhere else in the world, they would just have to 'deal'.
R-32.
Tell me, how often in life do you need to make foot mile conversions??? Or any of the other conversions the pro metric crowd is bitching about.
The metric system was designed by the French to make this puny country seem larger, their short leader seem taller and their overweight population seem lighter.
This is obviously an exaggeration, since 100 meters is 330 feet, big deal, the signs are closer together. That only makes the measurement more fine. You can solve the problem by having 200 meter markers, which would be more efficient. You think of 200 meters as too big only because you've been fed the arbitrary 10ths of a mile as a standard.
Tell me, how often in life do you need to make foot mile conversions??? Or any of the other conversions the pro metric crowd is bitching about.
Maybe you never have to make foot/mile conversions, but what about ounces and pounds? Inches and feet? I hate it when the supermarket has a sale for a half gallon of ice cream and all the ice cream is labelled in ounces. It promotes scams. You can't pull that kind of crap off with the metric system. If the containers are marked in mL but the posters are in L, you don't have to whip out the calculator and figure out arcane conversion factors that have no basis in reality.
The metric system was designed by the French to make this puny country seem larger, their short leader seem taller and their overweight population seem lighter.
Then why did they choose units that are logical?
At least they attempted to have:
circumference of the Earth: 40 Mm (megameters, 1 million meters)
1 L=1 dm3
Mass of 1 L of water=1 kg
Besides, you are wrong, maybe a person is taller in centimeters than in inches, but they aren't taller in meters vs. feet.
Scientists have long ago abandoned the stupid system. I'll trust the more educated segment of the population to decide that something makes more sense than some recalcitrant boors.
And you make Mike's point when you say that while the stumpy French are taller in cm but shorter in m; the damn units are too easily confused. I'm not going to confuse a ounce and quart or gallon, but I may confuse a deciliter with centiliter or millimeter or is kiloliter? They all sound the same. How far is it from NY to Boston, 320 kilometers or kilograms?
The English system was designed to fit the world in which we live, the metric system makes us fit the world into the system.
It isn't illogical to have 200 meter markers. Things should be as long as they have to be.
but I may confuse a deciliter with centiliter or millimeter or is kiloliter? They all sound the same.
No, because those are all for different units. If you say that you are 1.5 liters tall, I don't think anyone will have a problem understanding what you really mean.
How far is it from NY to Boston, 320 kilometers or kilograms?
If you think that it's 320 kilograms, what's the problem? You still understand the units involved.
See how much more confusing it is???
Someone confusing that is just ignorant. It's called LEARNING, and I have LEARNED the metric system. I- and hopefully every student in the country now- was/is lucky to learn both systems throughout grade school and in college. I can switch easily between both systems and convert between the two with no sweat. Granted, I'm an engineer, but everyone learns pretty much the same stuff in grade school. So hopefully in some years we will have a metric fluent population ready to switch over.
The English system was designed to fit the world in which we live, the metric system makes us fit the world into the system.
The English system is designed to fit a world in the past. When you realize the origin of each of the English unit, it really makes no sense in today's precise world.
Origin of the mile: 1000 paces of a marching Roman army
Origin of the pound/ounce: multiples of the weight of a single barley grain
Origin of the gallon: volume taken up by 8 pounds of wheat
American are measuring their lives based on stupid arbitrary stuff like that. The "basic" metric system (the part tha
They all sound the same. How far is it from NY to Boston, 320 kilometers or kilograms?
Someone confusing that is just ignorant. It's called LEARNING, and I have LEARNED the metric system. I- and hopefully every student in the country now- was/is lucky to learn both systems throughout grade school and in college. I can switch easily between both systems and convert between the two with no sweat. Granted, I'm an engineer, but everyone learns pretty much the same stuff in grade school. So hopefully in some years we will have a metric fluent population ready to switch over.
The English system was designed to fit the world in which we live, the metric system makes us fit the world into the system.
The English system is designed to fit a world in the past. When you realize the origin of each of the English unit, it really makes no sense in today's precise world.
Origin of the mile: 1000 paces of a marching Roman army
Origin of the pound/ounce: multiples of the weight of a single barley grain
Origin of the gallon: volume taken up by 8 pounds of wheat
American are measuring their lives based on stupid arb
They all sound the same. How far is it from NY to Boston, 320 kilometers or kilograms?
Someone confusing that is just ignorant. It's called LEARNING, and I have LEARNED the metric system. I- and hopefully every student in the country now- was/is lucky to learn both systems throughout grade school and in college. I can switch easily between both systems and convert between the two with no sweat. Granted, I'm an engineer, but everyone learns pretty much the same stuff in grade school. So hopefully in some years we will have a metric fluent population ready to switch over.
The English system was designed to fit the world in which we live, the metric system makes us fit the world into the system.
The English system is designed to fit a world in the past. When you realize the origin of each of the English unit, it really makes no sense in today's precise world.
Origin of the mile: 1000 paces of a marching Roman army
Origin of the pound/ounce: multiples of the weight of a single barley grain
Origin of the gallon: volume taken up by 8 pounds of wheat
American are measuring their lives based on stupid arbitrary stuff like that. The "basic" metric system (the part that applies to everyday life) is derived from only three defined base units: the meter, kilogram and second. The meter is based on the speed of light (slightly more constant than the step of a roman soldier) and the second is based on the cycle of a cesium atom. Only the kilogram is defined by an arbitrary mass. However, that mass is kept under constant environmental conditions in a lab in France (try finding that standard barley grain). In addition to four other base units, every other unit is derived from those 7 units. Force (with units of newtons) is in kg*m/s2, Volume is based on m3, Power (watts) is N*m/s2, or m2*kg*s-3. I could go on all day off the top of my head with these easily derived units, but it would take me my whole life to find a horse which will give me exactly 33,000 ft*lb/min so I can derive the unit of horsepower.
Plus, the metric system allows for smaller or larger units than the English systems thanks to the Latin and Greek prefixes. In US customary, you are stuck with inches as your smallest unit of length and the league as your longest. With metric, you can get down to atom-size units or to galaxy-size units. In today's world where accuracy and precision are required, measuring by a grain of barley makes no sense whatsoever.
Either way, I snuck out of that course with 90% without doing the homework or buying the textbook which confirmed what I'd been thinking before, that I shouldn't have been in a Sociology program.
-Robert King
Origin of the mile: 1000 paces of a marching Roman army
Origin of the pound/ounce: multiples of the weight of a single barley grain
Origin of the gallon: volume taken up by 8 pounds of wheat
There is, however, little or no truth to the rumor that the standard railroad gauge is based on the width of a horse's posterior. Pity.
Now, when I am talking about military issues like armour thickness and projectile dimensions I will use metric because the granularity of milimeters works well with the situation encountered.
Most small arms are between 0 and 10 mm. Carterage cases ramge from 0 and 100mm in length. Large projectiles generally range up to 155mm and armour thickness lies between 0 and 100cm.
The whole key is that I use units that translate to nice round whole integer numbers when I am working with them. I don't want to deal with decimals. Decimals are complicated and annoying.
R-32.
What are you talking about? You can't tell which container is a half gallon?? Besides, a gallon is 128 ounces, half gallon is 64, quart 32, pint 16, cup 8. Its the frikin BINARY system. I don't see you trying to have computers move to base 10.
Furthermore, the liquid measure system works perfectly with human consumption. 8 ounces is child serving, 16 is an adult and 32 is a pig sized service. A gallon or half gallon can be easily divided amoung children, adults and pigs in many conbinations.
You can't pull that kind of crap off with the metric system. If the containers are marked in mL but the posters are in L, you don't have to whip out the calculator and figure out arcane conversion factors that have no basis in reality.
That's why stores post unit prices for comparason.
Besides, you are wrong, maybe a person is taller in centimeters than in inches, but they aren't taller in meters vs. feet.
Meeters are never used to describe height because they are too grainy.
Scientists have long ago abandoned the stupid system. I'll trust the more educated segment of the population to decide that something makes more sense than some recalcitrant boors.
All that proves is that the metric system is good for SCIENCE. The needs of Science is very very different than the needs of everyday life.
And you expect people to remember all this? Computers can be whatever they want because only people specifically trained have to build computers.
Furthermore, the liquid measure system works perfectly with human consumption. 8 ounces is child serving, 16 is an adult and 32 is a pig sized service. A gallon or half gallon can be easily divided amoung children, adults and pigs in many conbinations.
This doesn't prove that English is better, because the same thing works with 250 mL, 500 mL, 1 L and 2 L.
That's why stores post unit prices for comparason.
They don't always use the same units.
Meeters are never used to describe height because they are too grainy.
No they're not. They use decimal points.
All that proves is that the metric system is good for SCIENCE. The needs of Science is very very different than the needs of everyday life.
It isn't as different as you think it is.
Most people are very familliar with their powers of two, at least up to 64 (thank you March Maddness).
This doesn't prove that English is better, because the same thing works with 250 mL, 500 mL, 1 L and 2 L.
Yes, it is much easier to work with three digit numbers than nice round, divisable two digit numbers. If you ask me, three hundred milileter can simply lacks the nice ring of 12 ounce.
No they're not. They use decimal points.
Decimal points are annoying. The unit of measure should do its best to eliminate the need to use decimale for whatever the focus of that measure is.
Exactly! That's why the British coin that was worth 1d was called "Three Ha'penny".
As this was their starting point, I don't get why they didn't make the circumference of the Earth 10 Mm or 100 Mm or even 1 m.
The quarter circumference (e.g., distance from equator to a pole) was considered a more useful number.
But the metric system's point is to defy the usefulness of divisiblity by four.
I'd love to see anyone determine the design speed for a curve on a railroad using solely feet and pounds. Instead of convenient formulas like there are in the metric system (where units are defined on the properties of other units; the Newton is defined as the product of a kilogram and meter divided by a square second -- (kg*m)/(s^2) ) you have all sorts of whacky conversions to do! It's simple in the metric system to figure out the angle and maximum speed of a curve so that a train doesn't go flying off -- you need the mass of the train in kilograms, the angle in degrees or radians, and the speed in kilometers per hour. Then you have a simple equation to do, because the units were derived from the equation you are performing.
By the way, the metric system is very useful in actual life. Soda comes in liters, which is roughly equal to a quart. Think of a gallon of milk as a little more than 4 liters. I am 1.852 meters tall, or 18.52 decimeters tall, or 185.2 meters tall, or 1852 millimeters tall. It's so simple, it's ridiculous to think the English system superior.
You realize that moving a decimal point dosen't make your height any clearer in the metric system. You're just shoveling the shit into different shapes and that dosen't change the fact that it still smells bad. Its like saying "I'm 5 blahs tall or 50 one-tenth-blahs tall". Well duh, that's a trueism. You didn't add anything useful to the discussion. Units exist to provide useful conceptualizations. Different units can bring different sorts of usefulness to the table un helping people develop a concept of size.
I'm 5-10. See how simple that is? No decimal points. No qualifying prefix. Just two, round integers. The situation should determine the units used. We should not have a single set of units for all situations. The metric system as it stands is cumbersome when it comes to human height. Meters are too large, cm are too small and dm are still too small. Ideally the human height unit would go from 0 to 10 with 10 being about where 8 feet is now and there would be 10 inches in each Human Height Foot because we don't generally have to divide HHF's into fractions. Since some people might find a whole new system cumbersome to learn and interoperate, the next best option is the Real or Correct foot-inches system. The metric system is comming in like a distant last. Anyway, since we work with base 12 in time we might as well get some practice in length.
You should use the units must convienent to the situation. For example an M1 tanks stands about 8 feet tall, has frontal armour 44cm thick, is powered by a 1500hp engine and mounts a 120mm smoothbore cannon 55 calibers long shooting a projectile at over 3000 feet per second. For each bit of data just presented I used the units that presented said data in the way that made it easiest to conceptualize.
The english system is not perfect. Back in the day they insisted in classifying a gun by the weight of the protectile it threw. Here's a trivia challenge for all you blokes out there. Match the caliber in mm with each pound rating.
2 lb=?
3 lb=?
6 lb=?
17 lb=?
18 lb=?
20 lb=?
25 lb=?
I guess you pronounce that Five ten. How is it any harder than saying One Seventy-eight?
For example an M1 tanks stands about 8 feet tall, has frontal armour 44cm thick, is powered by a 1500hp engine and mounts a 120mm smoothbore cannon 55 calibers long shooting a projectile at over 3000 feet per second.
The problem with this is conversion, it's insane and annoying to convert horsepower into anything else.
The problem with this is conversion, it's insane and annoying to convert horsepower into anything else.
Unless you're trying to use a motive engine for electrical power there is no need for a layperson to convert Hp to watts. If you really insist just use 1hp = 1Kw. After all, if you weren't making a casual calculation you'd be using a calculator.
~ 3.336 ns
Interestingly, if you use that as a definition, it would be way more logical to have the foot as the SI unit of length, as it is almost exactly the distance light travels in 1 ns.
only SI unit that isn't divisible by 10 is the second
Yes it is, I just did (several times): 1 ns.
the Mesopotamians figured out that 60 is divisible by a lot of numbers, so they based their time on 60 seconds in a minute. SI uses radians (based on the circle) but degrees are acceptable, and they're based on the Mesopotamian 60 (60 * 60 = 360).
That's because the Mesopotamians understood that base-10 fractions were messy. These bloody scientists could learn a lot from them.
How are they messy? Dividing numbers in a decimal system by six is more awkward than dividing by ten.
Is that susposed to be a subliminal message saying stick with Imperial? Perhaps Metric is more confusing than you thought if you can be 1.852 m tall and 185.2 m tall.
;-)
R-32.
-Robert King
333.3R m
222.2R m
111.1R m
before a turnout ;-) let's show the buggers that they're totally impractical!
Also, with metrics, units of measure are often related (as American Pig eluded to ). Just like a gallon is 231 cubic inches - meaning equivalent to a container 11 x 7 x 3 inches; one liter is equivalent to a decimeter cubed ( 1000 cc. ). However the metric uses more logical dimensions, simply measuring by 10's.
Tell me, how often in life do you need to make foot mile conversions??? Or any of the other conversions the pro metric crowd is bitching about.
Did you ever consider determining the length of the runway ( should one be a pilot )? In aviation it is quite common to do those type of conversions. Suppose you're told you have a 12,000 ft. runway: then you shall determine that you have about a 2 1/2 mile runway available.
I realize the 'conventional' English system is easier because that's what we were born with, I find it easier too, but that doesn't mean the metric system is worthless. It is full of merit. Frankly, those who level these stupid rebuttals should get informed - I have. Did you guys realize there is the Imperial system as well as the English system? Did you know there are two types of miles? Nautical Miles ( N.M.: for nautical navigation ) and regular road miles - which are called statute miles.... and you guys complain about the metric system.
R-32.
No, neither works any better than the other in any application.
I must correct you here (although I otherwise agree). The Metric System was created in 1793 by a special commission appointed by the Republic of France.
The only problem with the metric system is not the system itself , but the conversion to the equivalent English counterpart ( e.g. 1.6 km. to a mile, etc.).
And this is stupid, there is no need to ever use the conversion factors. Just use the system.
In real life, you are more likely to want to divide something than multiply it. The most likely things you'll want to do are to halve, quarter or third something (in that order). The imperial system has grown to fulfil those needs.
Then why on earth is a mile's worth of feet a multiple of 11? When did you last need to divide a mile into 11 parts?
By your logic a mile ought to have been 5400 feet: 2^3 times 3^3 times 5^2. Or how about 5040 feet?
5280 has the practical immediate utility of being divisible by 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 10, 12, 15, 16 and 20, all of which are useful factors. It happens also to be divisible by 11. This is a bonus, in case anyone ever wanted to have an eleventh of a mile.
I agree that 5040 would have been more useful as it's also divisible by 7 and 9, rather than 11.
That's sidestepping the issue. It is irrelevant whether you choose to use decimal, octal, hexidecimal or whatever. You still cannot get an integer result for the decimal number 10 over 4.
It's far less disruptive to convert the measuring system than convert the numbering system.
I'm not suggesting we start writing As and Bs rather than 10s and 11s. What I am saying is, for practical purposes, 10 is a particularly poor choice of factor between two units.
Even if we did have a base-12 numbering system, then the English system still doesn't work, because not everything works with 12s.
Of course not everything uses 12s. Some things are better suited to 8s, 14s, 16s, 20s or some other number. It is the beauty of the English system that it doesn't fall into the trap of one size fits all. The numbering system is merely a way of notating how many of a unit you have, not a way of determining how many of one unit should be in another.
I'm not sure how this would affect the subway system though. I don't know of any distance or other measurement signs for the public in the subway system. Maybe if they hang electronic temperature signs in subway stations they should be metric, but I suspect that nobody would really want us to know the temperature on a subway platform. It would be either too hot or too cold.
Moreover, look how convienently things scale. Most tempatures are between 0 and 100 degrees. Most every day objects are between 0 and 3 feet. Most common distances are 0 to 2 miles. Most speeds are between 0 and 100 mph. Human sized structures are usually between 0 and 10 feet. Most people weight between 100 and 200 pounds and lift objects between 0 and 100 pounds.
In metric things scale to completely bizzare proportions. I'm either a bazillion cm tall or like .3 meeters tall. The tempature is always like 8. Fat people don't weight as much. Slow cars go fast. Small countries are large. Its all cockamamey.
As always, I well thought out post. You expressed my thoughts much more clearly than I did. I think the tempature is the best example, when you say it will be in the 20's tommorow, you have a good idea of what is meant. In metric, would saying it will be between -1 and -4 mean the same?
I also agree about division being a more common function in everyday life than multiplication. The mind/eye can visualize halves, thirds, quarters but not tenth. If you try to visiualze tenths, you need to figure the approx 1/2 or 1/4 involved and work from there.
No it's not. You are used to 20 being cold. That is arbitrary. The fact that anything else is different does not prove the superiority or inferiority thereof.
Besides, how hard is it to understand -5? If you were used to it, you'd think saying 20 was crazy (yes, I know 20!=-5, but you're not doing complex experiments with heat, you don't care what the temperature is to the nearest degree).
I also agree about division being a more common function in everyday life than multiplication.
This doesn't show that the stupid system is better, since metric is better for either division or multiplication.
The mind/eye can visualize halves, thirds, quarters but not tenth. If you try to visiualze tenths, you need to figure the approx 1/2 or 1/4 involved and work from there.
The metric system has no problem with halves and quarters. I'll grant you that the stupid system works better for thirds, but there isn't a problem with rounding. At least Metric lets you use a rounded decimal point. Try to enter 5 miles, 50 yards, 2 feet and 7 inches into a calculator.
But you are promoting the ease and use of the base 10 counting system. THAT is completely arbitrary too. Besides if you want to promote the base 10 counting system, shouldn't the majority of experianced tempatures fall evenly between 1 and 100 or 1 and 1000? (1 and 10 would not convey enough information).
Centigrade might work fine for scientists cooking stuff up, but how often is it boiling out????
The metric system has no problem with halves and quarters.
But with quarters are you still getting into decimal values. What batter way to simplify than to reduce the amount of decimals encounters period.
Except they'll go and insist on using Kelvin.
Why? What about people who live in Arizona or the Middle East? There they have many days with a temperature of above 100 degrees F, and people in the Artic have many days with temperatures WELL below 0. Even if you discount this as specific parts of the world that don't count, why do all temperatures need to be between 0 and 100?
Extreme values SHOULD exceed the 10^X thresholds. Mundane values should lie within them.
Easy:
5 x 1760
+ 50
1760
2 x 12
+ 7
12
That approximation gets increasingly inaccurate as the numbers get bigger. A yard is about 11/10 metres. Although 11 rather than 10 isn't usually significant, 2750 rather than 2500 might well be.
Everyone in the UK aged over about 35 does and most people under 35 do too. Fewer people would be able to multiply that out to 5280 ft in a mile.
and:
Sixteen ounces make a pound, 14 pounds make a stone, 10 stones make a hundredweight, 20 hundredweights make a ton.
and:
Twelve pence make one shilling, twenty shillings make one poundnot to mention knowing that a florin was two shillings and a half-crown was two shillings and sixpence (By the time I was growing up, Crowns were only minted as souvenir coins).
All requiring you to remember useless conversions.
And, of course, the ultimate: the American pint (16 fl oz) is smaller than the British pint (20 fl oz)not that you can find a British pint any more: everythings metric!
I can down my local - and it's got a handle on it!
I wouldnt know: I drink wine (from a 750ml bottle)!
No it doesn't. I don't carry a calculator with me everywhere and I don't think most people do either. Besides, one still has to remember the conversion factors. It's a lot easier to memorize a concept than raw data. I mean you know what the first amendment is all about, but do you remember the exact words?
Have you ever tried to cut wood to a third of a meeter?
I have never tried to cut wood without first measuring it off with a ruler. Why would this be any different with the metric system? Besides, why is a third of a meter so special? The wood will have to be cut to whatever size is necessary for what you're doing.
Moreover, look how convienently things scale. Most tempatures are between 0 and 100 degrees. Most every day objects are between 0 and 3 feet. Most common distances are 0 to 2 miles. Most speeds are between 0 and 100 mph. Human sized structures are usually between 0 and 10 feet. Most people weight between 100 and 200 pounds and lift objects between 0 and 100 pounds.
But these are all arbitrary, and it's ironic that you choose mostly those things that in the stupid system work with hundreds. Thank you for pro
No it doesn't. I don't carry a calculator with me everywhere and I don't think most people do either. Besides, one still has to remember the conversion factors. It's a lot easier to memorize a concept than raw data. I mean you know what the first amendment is all about, but do you remember the exact words?
Have you ever tried to cut wood to a third of a meeter?
I have never tried to cut wood without first measuring it off with a ruler. Why would this be any different with the metric system? Besides, why is a third of a meter so special? The wood will have to be cut to whatever size is necessary for what you're doing.
Moreover, look how convienently things scale. Most tempatures are between 0 and 100 degrees. Most every day objects are between 0 and 3 feet. Most common distances are 0 to 2 miles. Most speeds are between 0 and 100 mph. Human sized structures are usually between 0 and 10 feet. Most people weight between 100 and 200 pounds and lift objects between 0 and 100 pounds.
But these are all arbitrary, and it's ironic that you choose mostly those things that in the stupid system work with hundreds. Thank you for proving my point.
You're also lying. Most speeds do not approach 100 MPH, very few people can come anywhere near lifting 100 pounds.
In metric things scale to completely bizzare proportions. I'm either a bazillion cm tall or like .3 meeters tall. The tempature is always like 8. Fat people don't weight as much. Slow cars go fast. Small countries are large.
Again you use hyperbole to prove your point. It doesn't work well. 30 is not a "bazillion." The temperature is not always 8 (by your logic, I can say the temperature is always 90), fat people weigh the same, slow cars go as slow and small countries are still as small. You're just used to 200 being fat, 80 being fast, and whatever the land area of a big country is in square miles being large.
Speak for yourself, pencil neck!!
You're also lying. Most speeds do not approach 100 MPH, very few people can come anywhere near lifting 100 pounds.
Look at the range of speeds most people see on our highways. 0 is really really slow and 100 is really really fast. Of course many speeds exceed 100, but those are extraordinary outlyers that DESERVE special notice. Again, most people lift objects between 0 and 100 poounds with 0 being light and 100 being very heavy. Beyond 100 you have extraordinary events.
In metric speeds would range between 0 and 160. That makes no sense in a base 10 system. Base 10 scaling gives people a much clearer notion of size. Why do you think the use of percent is so popular. I don't see people using perhex.
Again you use hyperbole to prove your point. It doesn't work well. 30 is not a "bazillion." The temperature is not always 8 (by your logic, I can say the temperature is always 90), fat people weigh the same, slow cars go as slow and small countries are still as small. You're just used to 200 being fat, 80 being fast, and whatever the land area of a big country is in square miles being large.
But people think in base 10!! Powers of 10 are thresholds that have subconsious meaning. To have a system of measurement that completely disregards those thresholds can only lead to subconsious confusion. To ANYBODY 100 xph sound to be at least an accomplishment and often becomes a defacto target. Look at PATH and the BSS. Why do you think they top out at 62 mph? Its because the cars were designed overseas and 100kph is the natural design target. Had they been designed in this country we'd have probably designed them for 75! (like the PATCO Budds).
Well, it would certainly be presumptuous of us to call it the American system.
Not really. Your pints and gallons are slightly smaller than ours (16oz pint vs 20oz pint). Also, you use pounds even where we'd use stone.
My point entirely. And we don't use 16oz pints. So it would be totally fair to call the traditional American system of measurement exactly that.
Where the hell did you get 20 from anyway?
Hey, I wonder if the smaller pint was the result of some government initiative to reduce alcohol consumption stateside back in the day.
The story I've been spun is that it's good ole American capitalism trying (succeeding) in swindling da customers!
How do you know this? What would be the cost? What would be the payback period? Did you research what it cost the UK (the best recent example I could think of)?
Some things are already metric here: a lot of auto repair shops need two sets of tools and have to keep two sets of nuts/bolts etc. Getting rid of one set would be a savings.
And why do they use fractions of miles instead of feet? Because nobody remembers how many feet there are in a mile. Everyone knows how many meters there are in a kilometer. And you can't use furlongs instead of 8ths of a mile because nobody knows what they are, or rods, or chains.
R-32.
And why do they use fractions of miles instead of feet?
I don't know about most people, but I have spent a lot of time running at tracks and they are almost all uniformly 1/4 of a mile. In fact, anyone who has gone to high school knows 1/4 mile as the oval your draw AROUND a football field.
And you can't use furlongs instead of 8ths of a mile because nobody knows what they are, or rods, or chains.
You just go down to the OTB and say that.
I think it is obvious that every activity has its own ideal system of measurement. Look in railroading. They usually use carlenghts for distance. Metric system is good for physics and chemistry. The english system is good for carpentry and generally living life.
No it wouldn't. Because it would bear no relationship to the mile.
I don't know about most people, but I have spent a lot of time running at tracks and they are almost all uniformly 1/4 of a mile. In fact, anyone who has gone to high school knows 1/4 mile as the oval your draw AROUND a football field.
My high school didn't have a football field. 1/4 mile is not the distance around a football field. There are 440 yards in a mile, since a football field is not 100 yards wide, the length of the track is determined by the radius of the curve on each end and the distance from the football field.
You just go down to the OTB and say that.
So what? Just like yards in Canada are known only to football fans.
I think it is obvious that every activity has its own ideal system of measurement. Look in railroading. They usually use carlenghts for distance.
But a carlength is a distance in feet. it's 85 feet because it's a good number, why isn't it 84 or 86? If cars were built using metric scales, they would be 25 meters. Hey, 25 is a better number than 85, so THERE!
Metric system is good for physics and chemistry. The english system is good for carpentry and generally living life.
How is it good for caprentry? No carpenter will eyeball a piece of wood to determine where to cut, he will use a ruler. And the material does not always have to be halved or quartered in all cases. Because of the greater difficulty behind its use, it does not improve quality of life.
The bottom line is we in America are comfortable with the system we have used for generations, if something is working leave it alone, how does that old saying go "IF IT AIN'T BROKE, DON'T FIX IT"!
I don't think it's just a Canadian thing. I'm a lot younger than 43 and my top 5 dislikes are:
1) Misuse of the apostrophe.
2) People from the UK who can't spell Sulphur, Aluminium or Oestrogen.
3) The British government for banning the correct spellings of Sulphur, Aluminium, Oestrogen etc.
4) People from the UK who say billion when they mean milliard.
5) Crappy metric units.
So metric units are not top of my list of pet hates, but they're well and truly embedded on it.
I think they could say the same thing about you. Since we defer to the English on matters of units we should also deferr on matters of spelling.
As for Billion=109 rather than 1012, that battle was lost a while back.
I still find that one offensive - I have no objection to $1,000,000,000 = $1 billion, but with pounds the correct term for 9 zeros is MILLIARD.
109=Billion
1012=Trillion
like it or loathe it!
Sometimes I get sick of repeating myself. The spirit "If it aint broke, don't fix it" is anathema to an advanced society, its poor grammar is a beautiful declaration of the stupidity of whoever decides to follow that motto.
If people followed the advice of that old saying, we would still be living in caves bashing animals with clubs. I for one, will always take anyone to task for using that proverb. I say: If it isn't broken, check again, it is.
The problem is that the system is broke.
The entire academic and business world utilize the metric systems putting americans especially uneducated americans at a severe disadvantage..
We should have stayed the course. It will take a generation or more of using the metric system for the popular society to get used to it. It is a better less complex. cosistant system.
Who cares if it bears a relationship to a mile. You know how long a yard is. You know how long a football field is. Distance is distance.
But a carlength is a distance in feet. it's 85 feet because it's a good number, why isn't it 84 or 86? If cars were built using metric scales, they would be 25 meters. Hey, 25 is a better number than 85, so THERE!
Actually carlength is an arbitrary unit of measure that varies between 50 and 85 feet depending on who you ask.
How is it good for caprentry? No carpenter will eyeball a piece of wood to determine where to cut, he will use a ruler. And the material does not always have to be halved or quartered in all cases. Because of the greater difficulty behind its use, it does not improve quality of life.
But the carpenter usually has to divite things into quarters, halves, thirds and sixths. The english side of the ruler has the big black lines at those critical points of measure.
When I took shop class in highschool, can guess what unit of measure we used when measuring wood, metal, plastic etc.?
-Robert King
Try again.
-Robert King
Then you havent been running recently (Ive seen the photos!) I would challenge you to find a quarter-mile track anywhere these days: theyre all 400 meters, a global standard.
Anyone who's even seen racing on the telly once as a kid knows what a furlong is. I agree, no-one knows what a rod is, but Cricketers and Railroaders certainly know what a chain is.
What planet do you live on!!
The english system makes little sense and been all but abandoned except for the popular culture in the US. Tt is difficult to use especially when you need to use any measurement other then feet and inches.
How many onces in a gallon, onces in a pound, onces in a quart, feet in a mile etc. Try using the english system in any tyoe of science or engineering feet. You will spend a great deal of time trying to remembering all the different convergences.
The stuburn american popular culture reliance on the english system is a large part of the reason american students have trouble with science. All science, healthcare, finacial services industries use the metric system.
The Metric system is easy and precise. In fact it is based on the very number system we use the base 10 system. The system has failed to catch on due to older adults willingness to change and this notion that the country was going to get accostumed to the new system overnight. We gave up to soon and it is harmful to children especially school age children who need to know the metric system in order to do thier science work
Actually, subway chaining is one of the last things that would need to be made metric.
The superiority of the Dvorak keyboard is a myth. Especially since most people don't bother touch-typing.
I know that QWERTY was developed to keep the hammers from jamming on old manual typewriters.
Now what is the Dvorak keyboard?
I have read that most keys in QWERTY are hit by the left hand and since the population is 85% or so right handed that may be inefficient. I don't know, those of us who have learned to touch type seem to do pretty well with QWERTY.
Any way, could you please explain Dvorak
Dvorak was designed so that the most-used keys would be located in the most convenient locations for touch typing.
An interesting keyboard is the linotype keyboard. It is the only "handed" keyboard I know of, where the majority of the keys are arranged to be manipulated with the right hand.
Dvorak was designed so that the most-used keys would be located in the most convenient locations for touch typing.
An interesting keyboard is the linotype keyboard. It is the only "handed" keyboard I know of, where the majority of the keys are arranged to be manipulated with the right hand. It had a light touch and with an experienced operator was very fast.
AS they SAy, bEWaRE of WEREWolves or REsemble uttER ASS; POInt REceived?
It is BELIEVED to be a more efficient system.
Read The QWERTY Myth in The Economist on April 3, 1999.
Dvorak still doesnt answer the problem of having to move your fingers around. I still think that a chord keyboard, where you press combinations of 10 keys (one for each finger) simultaneously, though having a higher learning curve would be more efficient.
Qwerty:
QWERTYUIOP
ASDFGHJKL
ZXCVBNM
Dvorak:
PYFGCRL
AOEUIDHTNS
QJKXBMWVZ
Today, the entire world is using the metric system. Heck, even England has officially converted to metric a few years ago and now punishes merchants for selling bananas by the pound (and mind you: Citizens of no other country are more proud of their traditions and more reluctant to change anything than the Britions).
WIth the entire world using metric, how long do you expect the U.S. can resist? I hope y'all are aware of the fact that, a few years/months ago, millions of dollars were lost because someone got inches and centimeters all mixed up when computing stuff for a space probe mission.
I'll give it another 5-10 years until the U.S. will finally come around, and if you're American and well below the age of 70 you're in for a change!
At least the length of today's foot doesn't change with every new king (or president) - progress?!
That's just plain idiocy and has nothing to do with converting the whole country to the metric system.
Everything scientific and industrial ought to be in metric units - anyone doing anything in English units is just dumb and ought to be forced to report their mass in slugs.
I don't actually see that it's a major deal whether road signs are in miles or km. But using English units for a NASA project is beyond the pale.
This is why there is such resistance to the conversion to metric, because everyone is afraid of it. And rightfully so; it seems that the only vocal proponents of the metric system want to change over immediately, and that would cause mass confusion (and tons of car accidents). This would need to be a gradual change if anything.
Gallons, pound and other "weight" value used in the food industry,
where the info is printed on the packaging can changed in only a few
weeks.
I think the change should be done for a world unification, but i would
be suprised if it's done while i'm living. (I'm end 20)
Cars already have dual speedometers, the sign change can be done now.
Pennsylvania recently renumbered the exits on most roads so that they would be based on the nearest mile. This requires changing all the signs. Too bad they didn't make them based on the nearest km.
New York hasn't made the change, nor has the New Jersey Turnpike (just that one road in the state). Hopefully when they do change it's for a km system.
Gallons, pound and other "weight" value used in the food industry, where the info is printed on the packaging can changed in only a few weeks.
Most food is already packaged in both units. Some things (like liquor) is shown only in metric. Some items are primarily metric (like 2 liter bottles). People don't have a problem with those, so they won't have a problem with more things metric.
Why cause confusion?
Go to:
www.downtownsilverspring.com
Then, click on web cam---if it's not pointing at the station, click the camera control button and got to the "Metro Red Line" preset--
You can zoom in so far that you can make out the people on the platform.
Mark
As a matter of fact I should put this Silver Springs cam on it.
Anyway, here is the press release:
For Immediate Release:
December 23, 2003
What's In Store For Metro In 2004?
New Rail Stations, Modernized Rail Cars, Metrobuses Accepting SmarTrip, And Metro's Continued Commitment To Customer Excellence
The Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority (Metro) is looking ahead to 2004 with the opening of three new rail stations, the introduction of SmarTrip on Metrobus, and a continuing dedication to provide the best level of transportation services found anywhere in the world. "As we reach the end of the year, Metro is looking to 2004 with a continued commitment to being an integral part of the national capital region by providing safe, reliable, and convenient transit service despite the significant financial challenges that we continue to face," stated Richard A. White, Metro's General Manager and Chief Executive Officer. "We also pledge to provide to best possible customer service for our riders and improve our customer communications." Here is some of what Metro has planned in 2004.
Metrorail
In December 2004, Metro is currently scheduled to unveil its 3.1 mile, two- station, $434 million extension of the Blue Line from the current Addison Road- Seat Pleasant Metro station to Largo Town Center with an intermediate station stop at Morgan Boulevard. The Morgan Boulevard station is less than a mile away to the south from FedEx Field, and will have the capacity to provide 500 all-day parking spaces. The Largo Town Center station will be located outside the Capital Beltway along the south parking area of the US Airways Arena and have a parking garage with the capacity for 2,200 spaces.
In December 2004, Metro is also currently scheduled to unveil its New York Avenue Metrorail station on the Red Line. New York Avenue, an "in-fill" station, is the first station in Metro's 27-year history to be constructed between two existing, operating rail stations Union Station and Rhode Island Avenue.
Next spring, Metro will award a contract for a pilot project to upgrade the train control station stopping system needed for reliable eight-car Metrorail trains. Currently, Metro operates a combination of four and six-car trains. The Metrorail system is designed to accommodate up to eight-car trains, and this is one of Metro's top projects to relieve overcrowding and to support further ridership gains. The project would be implemented in two phases. The first phase calls for design, installation, and testing enhancements to the programmed station stop system on the wayside, and on board Metrorail cars. The pilot will occur at seven stations: Farragut North, Metro Center, Gallery Place- Chinatown, Judiciary Square, Union Station, Rhode Island Avenue and Brookland-CUA. The first phase should be completed by the end of 2004.
Early next year, Metro will initiate a pilot program to mitigate tunnel leaks on the Red Line between Medical Center and Dupont Circle. The program will place a new waterproof coating in the tunnel walls outside of Medical Center. The pilot should be completed by next fall.
Throughout 2004, Metro will continue to reintroduce into service its modernized series 2000/3000 BREDA rail cars. These cars look very similar to the series 5000 railcars. In 2000, Metro awarded a contract to Alstom Transportation Inc., to modernize 364 rail cars. With many of these rail cars in service for nearly 20 years, Metro needed to modernize these cars to extend their life cycle. The completion of the entire contract is scheduled for late 2005.
In 2004, Metro will continue to work with Alstom Transportation Inc., on the production and initial delivery of its new series 6000 railcars. The initial order calls for a delivery of 62 rail cars. The first prototype cars are scheduled to arrive on Metro property in early 2005. The first cars are expected to enter passenger service in the summer of 2005.
Next spring, Metro will begin the first phase of enhancements for the eastern end of the Ballston Metrorail station. These enhancements include installing an additional elevator next to the existing elevator on the north side of Fairfax Drive, and two new elevators and a connecting underground passageway beneath the south side of Fairfax Drive. Under the same contract, a new Shirlington Bus Station will be completed, and will be operated by Arlington County to serve both Arlington and Metro buses.
In 2004, Metrorail will continue operating until 3 a.m. on Friday and Saturday nights as part of an 18-month demonstration program. The demonstration period ends in December 2004. Further continuation of service will depending upon future funding.
In early 2004, Metro anticipates awarding a design-build contract to construct a new station mezzanine entrance with a platform, canopy extension, and 200 feet of new walkway at the King Street Metrorail station.
In early 2004, Metro expects to have a groundbreaking ceremony to signal the start of site preparation and construction work for the new 1,400-space parking structure at the College Park Metrorail station; a 1,800-space parking structure at the New Carrollton Metrorail station; and the expansion of the New Carrollton rail yard.
Next summer, Metro will award a design build contract for a new 1,200-space parking structure at the Glenmont Metrorail station.
Next spring, Metro will initiate a public hearing for a new parking structure at the Huntington Metrorail station.
In 2004, Metro will rehabilitate the Wheaton, Vienna North and Addison Road- Seat Pleasant parking structures.
Metrobus
During next year, Metro anticipates having completed installation of its SmarTrip bus fareboxes on all of its Metrobuses. The $23 million contract for the fareboxes will provide the foundation for a seamless, regional, "smart" fare system with the replacement of the old fareboxes. Similar equipment will be installed on all the local bus systems and the commuter rail systems serving the metropolitan area and Maryland through this year and next year. The new fareboxes will accept SmarTrip cards, which are currently available to customers utilizing the Metrorail system. SmarTrip cards are permanent, rechargeable plastic farecards, embedded with a computer chip that tracks the card's value. In addition to accepting Metro's SmarTrip cards, the new fareboxes will continue to accept cash.
Throughout 2004, Metro will continue renovations and construction of its Four Mile Run Bus facility in Arlington, Va., in preparation to service and maintain 212 Compressed Natural Gas buses. Metro anticipates CNG operations to begin by the summer of 2005.
Next year, Metro will award a contract and order up to 250 replacement buses. These buses are expected to arrive on Metro property in the summer of 2005.
Early next year, Metro will begin free distribution of its regional Metrobus maps. Enhancements to the Metro web site Metrobus mapping capabilities will be unveiled in spring 2004.
Next year, Metro will move ahead with the first phase of the Bus Enhancement Program to include bus route numbers on 300 bus shelters, regional bus system maps and 100 bus schedule kiosks to be placed in Metrorail stations.
Metroaccess
A task force was created in late 2003 to identify funding resources, paratransit transportation services, people using these services, and identifying duplicative efforts to reduce costs as it pertains to paratransit service in the Washington metropolitan area. Recommendations from the task force are due by late Spring 2004.
Escalators/elevators
Next spring, Metro will continue construction of canopies at 26 Metrorail stations as part of the Comprehensive Escalator Canopy Program. The entire program is scheduled to completed in fall 2005.
In 2004, Metro plans to modernize 13 elevators, with key units being Dupont Circle, Wheaton and Forest Glen. As part of a six-year program to overhaul 32 elevators, Metro will reach that goal by the end of the year.
By the end of 2004, Metro will complete on 150 escalator units as part of a six- year program to overhaul 170 escalators. 2004 will also see the completion of the systemwide comb plate repairs on 313 escalator units along with the directional indicators and emergency stop buttons on 251 units under Metro's multi-year program for this essential work. Escalator modernizations and controller upgrades will occur on 41 units throughout the system, including Union Station, Farragut West, and New Carrollton.
Next fall, the department of Elevators and Escalators will open a training lab at the Carmen E. Turner Maintenance Facility to help firefighters and first responders deal with elevator entrapments inside the Metrorail system.
Safety and security improvements
As part of its ongoing effort to improve safety and security, Metro will implement the following safety and security measures in 2004.
Next spring, Metro will award a contract and start construction on a new Metro Transit Police Department substation at Fort Totten. The police station is expected to be completed by summer 2005.
Throughout 2004, Metro will host Emergency Preparedness events throughout the Metrorail system on the first Wednesday of each month at a transfer, terminal, or other high-volume station. The goal of the events is to open a dialogue with customers and to create a heightened awareness on their part about personal safety. Metro personnel will discuss with customers safety issues, answer questions, address concerns and challenge them to join Metro in its ongoing mission to create a safe transit environment.
Next spring, Metro will expand its chemical sensor detection program.
Technology enhancements
In 2004, Metro will continue work to complete its fully integrated 490MHz Comprehensive Radio Communications System designed to provide Metro with a complete radio communications system for the Metro Transit Police, bus, rail, and maintenance departments. Metro anticipates all maintenance and service vehicles to have the new radio system installed by next spring, and on all of its rail cars by mid 2005. In 2003, Metro completed installation of the new radio system for the Metro Transit Police Department and the Metrobus system.
Project development
Next spring, Metro will begin construction on the Anacostia Corridor Demonstration Project, a new trolley line initiative within the District of Columbia on the CSX railroad right-of-way between the Bolling Air Force Base security gate and Pennsylvania Avenue. Service is expected to begin in the summer of 2006.
In 2004, environmental assessments and preliminary engineering work will continue on providing rail service to the Dulles Corridor. Metro is preparing this technical work under the direction of the Commonwealth of Virginia.
In 2004, Metro will continue to work with the District of Columbia on an opportunity to implement a dedicated busway to provide reliable and faster bus services in the K Street corridor between Union Station and Georgetown University.
In 2004, Metro and the Arlington County Department of Public Works will work on a comprehensive plan for the Columbia Pike Busway as a first step toward developing a high quality transit system for the Columbia Pike corridor. Arlington County recently adopted a plan for revitalization along Columbia Pike to serve as a framework for the redevelopment of the Pike, one of Arlington's most vital commercial and residential corridors.
Operating budget/funding issues
In 2004, Metro's executive staff will be working closely with its Board of Directors to close a $60-65 million shortfall within the projected fiscal year 2005 annual budget. To close the expected shortfall, Metro's executive staff has currently proposed to reduce expenses by nearly $30 million, while at the same time addressing the needs to close an estimated $29 to $36 million remaining shortfall.
Metro Matters
Throughout 2004, customers will hear the importance of why Metro Matters to the entire Washington metropolitan region.
Metro, which has served the national capital region for three decades, is facing serious funding challenges caused by a combination of its aging infrastructure and growing ridership and is on the precipice of a fiscal crisis. If not addressed, the under- investment will result in an inability to meet the public's expectations for service reliability and demand for increased capacity to move people on a daily basis."
In 2004, Metro officials will call upon federal, state, and local partners to come together to fund Metro's basic capital needs to sustain the system. "At a minimum, Metro requires $1.5 billion more than has already been committed over the next six years to protect and secure the $9.4 billion it took to build the Metrorail system, an amount that would be more than $24 billion today," said Mr. White.
The necessary funds would go to replacing and rehabilitating assets such as trains, buses, elevators, escalators, power cables, and tracks; bringing additional capacity to customers by putting eight-car trains into service and more buses into the system; and enhancing security and ensuring Metro can continue to move people if there is a regional emergency. Without the additional funding, the Metro system will be unable to support future ridership gains and will be unable to ensure reliable operations.
"Metro will continue to do its part to sustain the world-class public transportation system and engineering marvel that is a trademark of the national capital region and a security asset of the nation," said Mr. White. "Nevertheless, the fiscal crisis that has been looming is now here, and the region is running out of time.
"Failure to act on this crisis will result in a significant deterioration of our regional transit system as Metro will have to begin deferring basic recapitalization needs in fiscal year 2006. Our customers would experience a severe degradation of service reliability and increased overcrowding if we are not able to exercise contract options for additional rail cars in November 2004 and March 2005. Now is the time for a renewed federal, state, and local commitment to Metro and the region," Mr. White concluded.
Background
The Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority (WMATA) was created by an interstate compact in 1967 to plan, develop, build, finance, and operate a balanced regional transportation system in the national capital area. The Authority began building its rail system in 1969, acquired four regional bus systems in 1973, and began operating the first phase of Metrorail in 1976.
Today, Metrorail serves 83 stations and has 103 miles of track. A fleet of 962 rail cars provides service from 5:30 a.m. to midnight Monday through Thursday, 5:30 a.m. to 3 a.m. on Friday, 7 a.m. to 3 a.m. on Saturday, and 7 a.m. to midnight on Sunday.
Metrobus serves the nation's capital 24-hours-a-day, seven-days-a-week with 1,455 buses. Metrorail, Metrobus, and Metroaccess serve a population of 3.4 million within a 1,500 square mile jurisdiction. For more information about Metro, including schedules and fares, visit Metro's Web site.
A sampling of Metro accomplishments in 2003
In fiscal year 2003 (July 1, 2002, through June 30, 2003), Metrorail achieved its highest ridership total in its 27-year history, carrying 184,364,325 customer trips, a 2.1 percent increase, or nearly four million more customers than in fiscal year 2002. This marked the seventh consecutive year of increased ridership for Metrorail. Meanwhile, Metrobus experienced its second-highest annual ridership in its 30-year history, as it carried 147,835,000 customer trips during fiscal year 2003, an increase over fiscal year 2002 when Metrobus carried 147,771,000.
Metro continued to construct the Blue Line extension to the Largo Town Center and the new Red Line station at New York Avenue. Both projects will be completed in late 2004.
Metro completed construction for the newly expanded mezzanine at the Mt. Vernon Square/7th Street-Convention Center Metrorail station at the 7th and M streets, NW entrance. The mezzanine connects directly with the new Washington Convention Center.
Metro opened its new Branch Avenue rail yard on the Green Line, with a storage capacity of 178 rail cars. The yard includes a car wash building for exterior car cleaning; an eight-car capacity maintenance building for the inspection and minor repairs of rail cars; and an operations and maintenance building, the focal point of yard activities which serves as the center of interior car cleaning and maintenance functions.
Metro completed installation of the new comprehensive radio system for the Metro Transit Police Department and the Metrobus system.
Metro successfully completed construction on the installation of canopies at four Metrorail stations as part of the Comprehensive Escalator Canopy Pilot Program. Canopies were installed at Brookland-CUA, L'Enfant Plaza, Medical Center, and Virginia Square-GMU.
Metro continued to introduce its new series 5000 rail cars on the Green, Orange, and Blue lines, accepting 182 of its 192 rail cars.
Metro introduced its first four modernized BREDA series 2000/3000 rail cars on the Yellow Line. These modernized rail cars contain several amenities for providing safe, attractive, convenient, and reliable service for all customers, including those with mobility requirements. The rail cars also have a totally new interior color scheme to match the series 5000 rail cars.
The Metro Transit Police created a new squad of officers called the Rail Anti-crime Target Squad whose main focus is the enforcement of Metro's public conduct ordinances.
Through a special grant from the U.S. Department of Justice COPS program, the Metro Transit Police Department will add 10 new officers.
The Metro Transit Police Department targeted parking lot crime with a new auto theft unit. This unit uses a variety of resources including officers in plain clothes, officers on motorcycles, officers with K-9 partners, officers on bicycles, portable aerial towers, and even Metro employees who are on workers compensation assignments that allow them to work for the police department as parking lot observers. The auto theft unit works varied hours, and shifts target stations that statistically are impacted by parking lot crime.
Metro installed a new self-cleaning public toilet inside the Huntington Metrorail station as a one-year test to determine customer acceptance and feasibility, as well as the impact on safety and cleanliness.
Metrobus officials continued testing new high-tech fareboxes that accept SmarTrip cards on 85 buses departing from its Arlington bus garage, marking the first step toward extending the use of smart card technology on the entire Metrobus fleet and other transit services throughout the region. Testing expanded in late 2003 to 93 Metrobuses operating out of the Southern Avenue Bus Division and serving routes in the District of Columbia and Maryland.
The Metro Is Accessible Campaign was launched to encourage more people with disabilities to use fixed-transportation like Metrobus and Metrorail route service.
The Metro Transit Police obtained a state-of-the-art explosives detection robot able to render safe any such device in the Metro system. The department also acquired a special EOD vehicle for transporting the robot where needed.
Metrobus system maps were made available on-line for free on Metro's web site at http://www.wmata.com/metrobus/maps/metrobus_service_maps.cfm. Visitors to the web site can click on each jurisdictional map for the District of Columbia, Maryland, or Virginia to get an overview of bus service.
Metro launches its advertising campaign "Information Anytime," reminding customers how they can obtain information via phone, fax, e-mail, and through the Metro Web site.
Metro converted its Bladensburg Bus Division Heavy Equipment Overhaul Program area to include the installation of a fueling station for Metro's new compressed natural gas (CNG) buses. The project involved the installation of a fueling plant and a canopy to service the first 164 CNG buses that are currently in operation throughout the District, and to upgrade the electrical service to support the fueling plant. The first portion of the project was completed in February 2002, when Metro took initial delivery of its first CNG Buses.
Metrorail customers took advantage of additional hours on the weekends with the rail system opening at 7 a.m. on Saturday and Sunday mornings from the end of the rail lines, and closing at 3 a.m., every Friday and Saturday night.
Metro offered free e-mail subscription service to notify its customers of elevator service disruptions at Metrorail stations. Customers were able to sign up and receive the notification at e-mail-capable computers, cellular phones, pagers, or personal digital assistants. The new electronic elevator notification service complements Metro's "eAlerts" service which sends e-mail messages on disruptions or delays to rail service. Both the electronic elevator notification and eAlert subscription services are free and available through Metro's web site.
Metro opened its new expanded parking structure at the Franconia-Springfield Metrorail station, adding an additional 1,000 parking spaces, bringing the number of parking spaces available to 5,100.
Metro and the American Association of Motor Vehicle Administrators (AAMVA) partnered to unveil the GrandDriver Program, an education and awareness initiative that provides a hands-on learning experience for the area's older adults on the Metrorail and Metrobus systems.
Metro launched its Ride Guide' service via telephone, allowing individuals without access to the Internet to secure Metro travel information by dialing its main number at (202) 637-7000.
Metro approved a two-year demonstration program to implement a Small Business and Local Preference Program. The Small Business and Local Preference Program is designed to assist small business owners and employers of these businesses in benefiting through an infusion of funds from Metro. The program calls for a preference program for simplified acquisitions. Simplified acquisitions are those procurements for which Metro pays $100,000 or less. Under Metro's procurement procedures, simplified acquisitions are not subject to the same requirements of larger procurements, so therefore, Metro can make them more accessible to small businesses in the Washington metropolitan region.
pdf service advisory
DUH!
wayne
pdf service advisory
DUH!
Just because CC LOCAL is a has-been doesn't mean that he should make Brooklyn a never was.
Oh it was. And it is again, and could be more. But not in exactly the same way. And not with exactly the same people.
Basketball, not the Dodgers. Give Boro President Markowitz credit for this -- he is the first to make something other than bringing back the Dodgers the goal of his administration.
Bringing the Nets to Brooklyn would be a nice touch but isn't going to turn the borough into Sunbelt North all by itself. I'd rather see a massive, unprecedented in American history pro-development initiative, with the downtown section (and/or other targeted areas) made semi-autonomous with huge tax breaks, a slash-and-burn downsizing of government, subsidized utility rates and infrastructure (including transit) improvements, and so on. It would be costly for the city to implement, but if done properly would result in tens of thousands of city residents earning big money.
BTW, CC... I like your ideas for revitalization! Especially the Steeplechase park/Parachute Jump idea. When I went in April of 2000 the place was still that empty vacant lot, next to the ol' Thunderbolt, and since I went on a cloudy day, it seemed like I was at a cemetery. Screw the little league baseball field, WE NEED A REAL AMUSEMENT PARK CONEY ISLAND STYLE!!!
Jersey Mike is getting to be a real pain in the ass, and if he was smart, rather than automatically posting on instinct in this thread, he would take a moment to think and decide maybe it's best just to ignore it. I do it all the time, rather than causing conflict on this board.
Chuck Greene
Oh and Fred can come back too...
#5 would give Fulton St - 8th Av riders easier access to the LIRR terminal and a much needed transfer to the IRT and BMT in Brooklyn. #4 would extend that benefit to express riders.
And what don't you like about the idea of an Utica Av line anyway?
1) Narrows Tunnel to Staten Island to connect with to be eliminated SIR
2) SIR converted to Subway Operation-new home of the V train.
3) BMT Man will be new MTA president, Thurston will be Lt. Governor.
4) North Shore SIRT line will be re-opened, new venue SICROA.
5) Will nominate Jersey Mike to run Port Authority of NY and NJ
6) Other plans to come if I'm elected :D
Regards,
Jimmy-the Democratic Republican :P
NOOOOOOOO!!! We don't want a single tracked PATH with antique signal installations and no passenger trains, because he prefers freight.
#'s 7 and 9 will have to work together, with the dodgers riding the innaugural trolley.
3): Rebuild the Myrtle Ave. El.
If I had to pick either-or, I would rebuild the Fulton L, complete with Park Row and Sands Street.
4): Build a new Steeplechase at Coney, replicating the original building and rides.
I remember Steeplechase, and it was fun, but I'd like Luna Park back more.
7): Bring back the Dodgers
No, you can't. It's just a Los Angeles team named The Dodgers. The Dodgers were more than a name, they were Duke Snider, and Jackie Robinson and Campy and Pee Wee Reese and Gil Hodges. Get the name back and apply it to the Cyclones or open a new franchise. But only if trolleys come back to Brooklyn. Sadly, Los Angeles (of all places) has trolleys, and Brooklyn doesn't so, for now, LA merits the name. If we do get the name back, maybe we get the Duke to throw out the first avocado.
Oh, and one other think. 11) Bring back The Brooklyn Eagle. No offense to the wannabe that uses the name, but the old Eagle was a full-service newspaper with a national and international staff, comparable to one of the better Manhattan-based papers. Newsday is probably the nearest equivalent, but it is not very like The Eagle.
Newsday is also the most annoying paper out there with its in-your-face marketing tactics. They usually have people in the SmithHaven Mall aggressively hawking subscriptions, and at least once every couple of weeks we get telephone calls imploring us to subscribe. The last time I answered such a call, I told the solicitor that I'd really like to subscribe, but unfortunately I had a very low IQ score and couldn't read.
How does one find out how many posts I posted in a month ?
Bill "Newkirk"
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
2. Once you know that information, go to the Subtalk Message Index. You can post a message that shows these image file addresses. You can either type the image address like this:
< a href = "http://www.imagesite.com/specific images >image files < /a >
where "http://www.imagesite.com/specific images" = the address data,
...which will allow a reader to click on the name and be transported to the image site,
or
< img src = "http://www.imagesite.com/specific images" >,
...which will show the actual image files on the Subtalk message post. The thing with this method is, you should use an image manipulation application, like Irfanview, to reduce the actual size of the raw image. Irfanview can successfully and easily reduce the file size without losing the image quality. Do that for us poor suckers still on dial up access. For example, the original size could be 400 Kbytes; the reduced image could be under 100 Kbytes. It takes a little practice, and you can easily preview the message before you post to see if everything's kosher. Have fun.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
My sincere prayers are with you Jeff in overcoming this medical condition and also my support to you in continuing your everyday tasks and leading a normal life while enjoying it too.
I wasn't harassing him because of any sort of personal illness, I was harassing him because I felt he was a liar. I am not and never have been angry at CC for who he is, but for what he does.
asiaticcommunications@yahoo.com
CC local please listen to my advice !! ..................please ?
please do not let those idiots drive you nutz !!!
what will happen is subtalk will be shut down if the attacks continue !!
the way to beat then is to out class them shoot higher than them and stay on topic
when you do it !!
again many thanks join my groups and sound off there did you get my links ?
thankz SALAAM ALLAH
asiaticcommunications@yahoo.com
That is no easy task for CC "off-topic" Local.
http://www.boarshevik.com/streports
Seriously, he put a lot of time and effort into doing the STR's and ANAL's. Give him a hand.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Anyway, I spend my time looking Forwards, not backwards; Upwards, not forwards and always twirling, twirling towards better transit.
In any case, I don't see why we can embrace both old and new at the same time. I see the combination in NYC all the time and it is quite scenic.
See? That's why some here get angry with you. Nobody here should think of themselves as the "poster rater". I don't believe an excess of bubbling gushing admiration for a perceived thread direction adds to the discourse. Sorry. I just don't. And really, one could say, who cares if some of us feel "refreshed" by a specific post. Is that the point of this virtuality? Do we need to become like some cheesy talk show, with the audience hooting and shouting at the speakers? We're here for the trains not, oh, the humanity!
And not many other posters actually post remarks like that one above. It makes me think of lambasting you for your hubris. Or at the very least ask you to keep your opinions about the editorial quality of the posts to yourself...damnit.
I do feel uneasy at making this post though. After all, who the hell appointed ME the poster rater rater? I guess I can't get on your ass about how you gushed over the fact that an actual data transfer occured within a thread, without myself doing almost the same thing pointing it out.
Eff it. Just, c'mon man. Can we get over the "Wow! Gee! Golly" stuff? The board don' need no stinkin' back seat drivers...since we're all in the front seat.
"...and now my mother is partially crippled, in a wheelchair, as a result of breaking her hip."
and
"You want to be in a wheelchair like my mother???"
WTF??!!! You're bringing up your MOTHER??? By all that's holy and damned, that's messed up. It's disgusting. It's undignified. I respect your mother as I do all mothers...you just made me feel ashamed somehow. As a man and a son I'm deeply embarrased for you. Dude, in the schoolyard it's usually the other guy who brings up mothers first...and it ain't usually HIS OWN mother. Your response shows a serious lack of judgement.
Not only that...my g-d man, you think you're the only person who ever got sick??? The nerve of you to constantly bring that up if, g-d forgive us, someone pokes fun at you. Don't you realize it makes you sound like a crybaby? Buck up, son. You were ill; SO WHAT!! Every f***en one of us been there, done that. I'm sure there are folk here who are crippled, deaf, m.c., contagious, positive...
BUT nobody seems to ever want to bring up that subject. Except you. That's right, only you. I mean, listen to yourself:
"I have had MORE than my share of ilness and injury these past two years."
Sorry, I got to say it: The impact of your maladies has faded. Give it a rest. BTW, I'm gonna guess you actually never been in a real fight. You know, where someone actually throws a punch at you and impacts your nose and it bleeds. And where you throw punches and kicks back. It don't sound like you ever have had to do that. Well, this is a public forum. For you to say:
"You are a miserable excuse for a man, Mike.......I AM NOT PLAYING ANYMORE........WATCH YOUR MOUTH AND STOP THE HARRASSMENT NOW!!!!!!!! MAY YOUR ROTTEN SOUL ROT IN HELL FOR A THOUSAND ETERNITIES!!!"
to a fellow Subtalker is just, well...maybe you should rethink your words. All I can tell you is, I haven't used such an expression like that since I was 15. As it is, you just blew any lingering good thoughts I might have been harboring about you. At this point I really do wish I had the power to kick you out of the playground. And if you're pissed at me, so be it.
It would be nice if we lived in a world where everyone was honest and stories could be taken for face value, but we don't. CC's behavior has sent up numerous red flags and I am not going to take him on faith any longer. If CC comes and proves me wrong I will be the first to make a sincere and heartfelt appology.
Also, having lost a father a few monthes ago, and going through a lot of medical problems last year(i was in north shore for a week) I know how things tend to seem unreal to others.
"I was caught in the WTC on 9/11" So were many people. So were many subtalkers. Do yuo see them trying to get pity for it? NO!
"My brother passed away at age 61" 1 subtalker recently lost their parent. Another their grandmother, and a while back another lost his wife. Do you see them continuing to ask for pity because of that? NO! Last weekend I saw all 3 of them, having a good time on the MOD trips, aparently making the best of what life gives them.
"and now my mother is recovering from a hip replacement, as well as dealing with anemia." My Grandmother had a stroke earlier this year, and then had to recieve gallbladder surgery. She is also recovering. My father was in a bicycle accident 2 months ago. Occasionally he jokes about it, but he isnt complaining about it, nor was he complaining about it while myself and my stepmother were lifting him off the road. He actually viewed the whole situation in a positive manner, as he thinks that it was a valuable educational experience to go through the very same ambulance that he is an EMT on, and be driven to the same hospital that he has frequently driven other patients to. Neither him nor I have complained of the situation anywhere.
I guess what Im trying to say is, Shit happens. and moreover, Shit happens to everyone. I can assure you that you are by no means the only one who has been in accidents tragedies or around death recently. I dont mean to be attacking or insulting you in any way, but these things dont only happen to you. I also dont intend to make any of these tragedies that happened to you seem small. I know they are not small. EVERYONE has ALWAYS had "more then my share of heartaches and calamities".
I wouldn't wish random people I dabely know to be really sick, but since CC likes to fake it I can wish "sickness" on him.
If you don't really want to deal with me I will accept the word of a long standing subtalker if he or she chooses to vouch for you by saying that they have met you and that they are satisfied that you present yourself in a straightforward and truthful manner.
BTW, please explain how I am going behind your back? I have been saying that I don't trust you to your face.
Regards,
Jimmy
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
#3 West End Jeff
2) I've probably given more $$ in support of Subtalk's operation than you have.
3) I don't backstab anybody. I am candid and upfront with my complaints and grievances.
Speaking of backstabbing, when I met you on the Redbirds you seemed to be a really nice guy. Now I get this.
You have gotten some people very upset with you and I know you were very nice to me. I would like to keep it that way so I think that you should apologize to the people that you irritated, particularly CC LOCAL and refrain from badmouthing others on the message board. As Dave said, sitck to transit and related issues and we'll all be happy. If you got a complaint about something, make sure that it is about transit or a related issue and we might just pay attention to you.
Best Regards
#3 West End Jeff
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Jersey Mike, you can't wish sickness or something else bad on someone. It would be like telling me to either go drop dead or go fuck myself. Now you may not believe CC, but just because you've never met him in person, doesn't mean you can pass judgment on him. I happen to have sympathy for this man, because I went through similar turmoil- I lost my mother to breast cancer, my father has been crippled through six back surgeries, money has been very tight, I have thought of suicide several times in my life, and I almost died from the toxic chemicals of the medication I was taking, Zoloft, last year. And you know what, I'm only 20! I'm supposed to enjoy myself and have a whole life ahead of me, but instead I've had inner demons! At least I have a girlfriend who understands me, and that makes me feel happy enough and wanted. If you're not willing to admit your mistake and shut the hell up, then quit wasting our time and the get the fuck out of here before you alienate everyone on Subtalk.
All the best for the New Year.
Oh, and by the way:
Stop cursing!!! There are woman and children reading these words, you idiot. Show some respect, before you go off on another poster here. I think using foul language on this board is a much worse infraction than simply criticizing another poster. Cursing brings down the quality of the place. Busting another guys chops is simply s.o.p. on Subtalk.
It's not the case where one is faking an illness, you should give CC Local the benefit of the doubt.
However, it's another issue when he tells the world world that he is asking someone on this board to assist him in committing suicide. Now that's sick!
I gave him the benefit of the doubt back in April. If you review the record I wished him well when he said something about going to the hospital. When his "cousin" started posting, that's where his benefit got used up.
Welcome to my killfile - anyone who is low enough to post what you have over the past few days is such a low-life that you don't deserve to have people waste their time on you.
N Bwy
Hey Mike, com'ere a minute.
1): Bring back the designation "BMT" into OFFICIAL usage
I suppose. It's not so hard to remember anyway.
2):Have a new fleet of cars designed from TRIPLEX blueprints for service over BMT routes
Eh, we have the museum trains, don't we?
3): Rebuild the Myrtle Ave. El
We could if the demand is there. Don't forget those NIMBY's. Even with a modern concrete-style El, residents would probably still oppose it.
4): Build a new Steeplechase at Coney, replicating the original building and rides/ 5): Restore the old Parachute Jump to OPERATING condition
Is the old Steeplechase in that bad condition? I do know for a fact that the Parachute Jump is being restored, so no worries about that.
6): Build a new Ebbets Field, designed after the original
Nice...maybe you could contact Ratner and have him exchange his plans for yours.
7): Bring back the Dodgers
That won't happen. Though there is hope Ratner with help from Jay-Z may bring the Nets to Brooklyn.
8: Bring back Ebinger's bakery
What's so special about them?
9): Bring the trolleys back
Bob Diamond's situation is clear if you read everything about it. I doubt you'll have much success either.
10): Have Sea Beach Fred move back and run for Brooklyn boro council. 8-)
Scary! He'll improve service on the Sea Beach but grind everything to a halt on the Brighton. Never!
Conductor came down on the next train.
As long as the bull and pinion gears were in tune...:) No door chimes to worry about, you know.
You don't leave your position without zoning out. Bad things can happen if you leave the motor running and the keys in.
Regards,
Jimmy
Regards,
Jimmy
Nametags
They are Subtalk/Straps specific, so choose the appropriate one.
I guess people don't bother with them (Like Me lol)
This Is What I Live For...
Chuck Greene
Woohoo!
Chuck Greene
We had nice weather when *you* had the blizzard, so I guess there is justice in mother nature.
Elias
Issue number two: I am going to Florida tomorrow for a Carnival cruise to Nassau and points south (a couple of Caribbean islands). I will be back in a week. The ship's name is the Carnival Glory; her 110,000 tons make her larger than any of the transatlantic liners of the Golden Age (the biggest, the Queen Elizabeth, was an 83,000 ton heavyweight). Orlando Airport, where we touch down, uses peoplemovers, I think, but our primary way of getting to port Canaveral will be bus (rather typical mode for cruise companies).
As far as your cruise go. There's a peoplemover that takes you from the terminal where the planes dock to the main terminal with all the moving sidewalks and disney shops.
I will also bet money, you're tour bus will be yellow, with a Big Mears sign on the side(largest transportation company in the SE).
The Port isn't a bad place, it's in the middle of nowhere, surrounded by an air force base and a space port.
110,000 tons ain't that bad, but they're making bigger ships now. Like 160-180tons they're up to. :)
I haven't seen or toured the Glory, let us know how it is, been thinking about working on one of those ships. Would love to do the new Queen Mary, goes around the world.
I enjoyed the peoplemover at MCO, especially its leather straps, but alas it's a very short ride, no more than a minute or so IIRC.
I had a pic somewhere.....with the good camera that broke, not these crappy pics i get now...
I'll follow up shortly w/ stuff about the Glory.
Chuck Greene
Ayup. By the way, there were jitney-type services (and/or collective taxi services) on most of the Caribbean isles I've been to by far, although they tend to be more colorful on certain islands (St. Thomas, with its "safari buses", are a good example). However, not all jitney buses are necessarily white!
The Safari Buses of St. Thomas are often made from pickup trucks, which have steps cut into one side of the "bin" to allow folks to board and disembark. The bin is covered with a roof (on some buses, the bin may be replaced entirely with a passenger area, of similar look but possibly a larger size). The passenger areas are open-sided to let the breeze through - think open -observation cars, and you'll have a general idea.
St. Thomas is also notable for driving on the left side of the road, and for driving on the same side of the road that the steering wheels are on the cars (because many of the cars are American, they also have steering wheels on the left side).
Chuck Greene
- Amanda
I'm not so sure what I'm going to be doing with my degree... journalism is a super-corrupt field of work, so I was thinking of doing independant stuff of going into media reform movements
Every time I keep seeing this topic, I can't HELP but wonder if there's a relationship between females and the originator's being away for a week...
Light Rail Chic :-)
Good lock to you in all your future endeavors.
Chuck Greene
~Light Rail Chic~
You have always had to go up from the BMT platforms to the upper mezzanine, walk long passageways, and then go several levels down to the #7 platform, very inconvenient and time-consuming, especially considering how direct and easy it could be.
The plans include an open "balcony" style mezzanine overlooking the tracks and trains themselves. I wrote a revised description for this website. Have you looked at the Table of Contents for Times Square?
http://www.panynj.gov/pr/pressrelease.php3?id=462
Along with Manny B transit improvements, and the fully funded $2.8 billion downtown master transit plan, this reclaiming of water front will be a most welcome addition to NY's green space.
LIC has Gantry State Park and is adding more waterfront parkland.
They might be useful for some sort of break-bulk or specialized shipping. An auto terminal might be a possibility, but space is a bit tight and the lack of rail access could be a deal-breaker.
The proposed park runs from Atlantic Ave all the way up to the Manhattan Br., about 1.5 miles long, without decent existing public transportation. The planners have been saying they want to keep car and bus traffic out of the picture because the BQE already spews far beyond limits.
Perfect situation for putting a heritage trolley eh? If this is what you want, support the idea! Let those in charge know. Send messages to the websites linked to the Park project. I know I'd like to see it happen!
There actually were a few trolley routes that ran down there until 1930 or so. One was a shuttle that ran on Furman St. between Atlantic and Fulton Ferry, the other ran through what is now DUMBO from Sands St. to Fulton Ferry. Both were normally shuttles, but also ran rush hour extensions of regular routes (I remember reading that the DUMBO route ran as an extension of the DeKalb Ave. line, have to confirm with the noted experts). There is historical precendent.
Electronic displays are superior to rollsigns.
I say this because at 14th street, I saw a train (still don't know what it was, probably E) that had its side rollsigns set to the (E) on first car, (F) on second car and (C) on third car. The rest of the train were (E)s.
If someone were not able to spot a glimpse of the LCD sign on the front of the train, how would they be able to know what type of train it was, without getting on and listening to the announcement?
What is it that we all have against the electronic displays, anyway?
Agreed! Now on a more serious note: electronic displays are superior except for on the R-32 and R-38 cars (well, just in the front). You can hardly see them until you are just a few feet away. Are those things flipdots? They don't look like LEDs.
Chuck Greene
Mount a small plasma or LCD screen in place of the flipdot display.
Connect it to a small onboard computer that has a piece of software and GIF files for each bullet, and enable the settings by using a display like some cell phones have to select features, touching the screen with a pen would make the change. You could send the image up to the screen with a fiber-optic line.
wayne
Overkill.
For some reason it didn't work on the R-44's and R-46's.
But I don't think the electronic yellow route displays on inside of train suck.
Oh yes you can !!
WMATA has some of the early generations electronic displays from the metrobus fleet for sale.
They arent cheap, they even have some metrobus roll signs.
John
A friend of minehere insouthern California has quite a collectionof various types from various manufacturers.
And he can program them with whatever properties' readings he wishes!! (He even has the programming devices....and does programming work for some of the local transit authorities on contract!!)
Some wag probably had himself the proper Allen key and decided to have a little "alphabet soup".
wayne
I show the shuttle as: (N) 1712, 1556, 1689, 1495 (S).
We took another "QJ" to Canal Street, where we changed for the "RR". This we took two stops to Cortlandt Street. We got off there and went through a short concourse to the Old Hudson Terminal, a forbidding place. Water dripped from the ceiling and it had a musty smell. Closed shops lined the corridors. We paid fares and went down to the platform bound for Newark and I got my first look at the dizzy curve at the south end of the Terminal. Soon I heard clinking rails and heard the sound of an approaching train; this was followed by the glare of the headlight and soon I saw the train - a "K" stock, led by car #1207. It paused, then leaned hard into the curve, its wheels weeping and shrieking. Thus my first ride on PATH began. We went out to Newark and looked about for lunch. We found a Nedicks and had a bite to eat. Afterwards, we found a curious sight - a sign reading "CITY SUBWAY". Not knowing just what it was, we paid another 35 cent fare and went down to a low platform. I saw trolleys parked on layup tracks. I realized that the subway was really a trolley line when PCC 14 came out of the loop and down to the stop area. I rode up near the front and watched intently as we went a few stops and came out in a cut, the snow swirling around us. A beautiful ride up to Franklin Loop and back. My first of many pleasant rides on Route 7.
Returning to New York we went by Journal Square-Hoboken (we did not stop at Pavonia/Erie or Christopher)-33rd Street. A quick trip through Macy's (yes, there was a sale going on) and then an "F" (it was an R-6 type-#1178) back to 169th Street and the N6 bus back to Elmont. By this time the snow had turned into rain, and what had fallen was now slush.
All in all a very pleasant trip, despite the messy travel conditions.
wayne
I recall that a blizzard hit the New York area on Christmas Night in 1969. We were out in Glen Cove, visiting friends, and it took us some four hours to get home. I'll take your word that it snowed on Dec. 27th; I don't remember that. We went into the city on Tuesday the 30th, taking in "A Boy Named Charlie Brown" at Radio City Music Hall.
I do recall using the center platform at 59th St. that morning. We got off a n/b A train and boarded an R-32 (might have had some R-42s mixed in) D train. When it pulled in, all I could think of was, I hope they open up on both sides. Sure enough, the doors opened up to the center platform.
I saw "A Boy named Charlie Brown" at Radio City also, but it was early in 1970.
wayne
Wayne, that is the first time I have heard that expression in years. I guess that I have been gone from New York too long!
Incidentally, that was a great travelog!
#3 West End Jeff
I suppose it's a sign of my age, maybe it was all that teenage lust, but my right hand never fell asleep prepping a train. You WIMPS! Heh.
As I've been told by MANY "(ta)" employees SINCE I left the barn, "you guys had it MADE in the SHADE" ... of that, I have no doubts. Back when *I* worked for the (ta), MTA was newcomers and they STILL didn't know how many trains they actually owned ... heh. I could have gotten AWAY with ten lost arnine cars, or better yet, 10 R32's. They would have NEVER known. They'd never have noticed. :)
wayne
When I was little, I thought that in the 21st Century, all signs would be digital, billboards, highway signs, even street signs. It makes sense, it saves the cost of changing them when necessary, especially for billboards.
As you point out, their big downside is that they're harder to change.
Like most pro-rollsign apologists, you resort to hasty generalization to prove your point. All of the features you describe can be implemented with a digital display, and better.
I'm talking about what's actually out there -- hardly a "hasty generalization." Rollsigns are easier to read than the digital signs in actual use on actual trains in New York City.
It's too bad that the only high resolution flat-panel displays in the subway systems are advertisements. They should be used on trains to automatically display announcements of (scheduled and unscheduled) diversions, on the train itself and on intersecting routes. They should also replace many of the fixed signs in stations, so passengers can be directed to the trains that are actually stopping there rather than to the trains that are scheduled to stop there around the clock.
On front of train: Multicolor LED displays (it confuses many people to see a red (6) )
On outside of windows: Cycling route display (like those on R143)
On inside of windows: Instead of ads, next stop information/"this stop" information
On display that currently gives next stop (don't know what you call that): Variable LED strip map (that way strip maps can easily change)
Julian
-Express and Local Indicators.
-Make the LED sign (On the front of a train) where the rollsigns used to go.
I like that. Sort of like the R142s/143s, except with a multicolor LED sign
Oh, and for you wierd movie fiends, there's some scenes with LA big P's in Ed Wood's "Glen or Glenda".
76 Street
2. 76 street was not to be a terminal station. Only a local stop.
3. The R10 wasn't in that paint scheme until the 1970's.
APRIL FOOLS joke. That was a pretty good gag with the photo editing and the maps though.
"...A neighborhood kid told me not to go in there, because it wasn't safe to stand on. He said he bounced a ball in there once and it disappeared right into the ground..."
Uh, the twilight zone, or april fools joke?
He gives enough clues to let you know it's a joke.
There is ample other evidence 76th Street doesn't exist.
sheesh!
So, I was on a R142 "fo train". The train arrived at 138st G.C. at 7:17pm, and as soon as the doors opened, there were two loud, long horn blasts from the conductor. A lady gets off the train and screams " We need some Police assistance right NOW". With that, people (And what if it was a fuggin gunfight?!!?!?) began to stick their heads out the cars to see what's going on ( I was ready to dive under the bench). The police guy runs down the platform, and goes to the center of the train, and handles the situation (dunno what he did since I didn't look). The C/R closes the doors at 7:31pm, and the train goes down to 125st.
What happened? Well, a guy tried to rob a lady, but she pulled a knife and cut the crap out of him, leading her pissed off, and him bloody and screaming.
Moral of the story: Stealing is wrong.
To satisfy your railfan urges:
It was in fact, a Brooklyn Express, but they'll fix it someday
THAT POOR BLACK KID! IT IS A SHAME THAT THAT POOR GUY WAS STABBED BY THAT HATE MONGERING WHITE WOMAN!
Do you really mean that? After all, the advice has been the opposite for 30 years -- just give it up. Right, Sarge? That's what the cops say, let them rob or rape you.
On one hand, if more people fought back or tried to escape, there would be a lot less crime. On the other hand, there would be more murder. She pulled a knife, he could have pulled a gun.
It may be that the conventional wisdom - never resist - is starting to change, mainly because people who submit without resistance still often get seriously or fatally injured. From what I recall, there's some evidence that robbery victims who resist actually have a lower chance of injury that those who submit, although their chances of death may be higher. I don't recall just how statistically sound this evidence may be, after all it's nothing that can be tested very easily.
If he does, maybe we can get Tom Ridge to lend him some of his Depends.
Tonite I boarded the JFK AirTrain for the first time. My buddy at work insisted they have "observers" on board. "No way that thing runs down the middle of the Van Wyck on it's own!" Oh yeah?
I kinda got mixed feelings, I'd definitely prefer there be a human being on board. So many things can happen. Okay, with automation you eliminate operator error-type accidents, but we may only be substituting another type -software accidents. (There was a doozy on WMATA's Red LIne about 10 years ago, btw!)
Speaking of WMATA, I'd read that the computer runs their trains faster. For one thing, it can calculate maximum braking rates to a finer degree than any human can. That too many operators slow down approaching stations to a speed at which they can more easily calculate their braking distance. Having ridden WMATA I found there's something to it. The trains really do b-u-r-s-t into stations, at a speed that seems too fast to stop -yet the computer does it. But not consistently, at least when I rode. Platform overruns were common!
Whadda ya think?
I'd feel better with a computer. They don't get tired, drunk, bored, distracted, suicidal, etc. The SOA has advanced to the point where realistically, automated operation of some rail systems is a non issue, and semi-automated operation would have many advantages (imagine if LIRR trains actually opened the doors immediately after stopping in a station, and got the correct side, too). With grade crossings, you need a human operator to stop for emergencies, but otherwise, it's hard to argue for one anymore. Even software lockups can be handled in failsafe ways.
Heck, totally automatic elevators are as old as dirt, and now they're starting to do multiple cars in the shaft (actually, Westinghouse tried this long ago, too). One hardly hears of an elevator failure that doesn't have a human cause - the control systems are simply redundant enough that failures aren't dangerous (the code now requires even further layers of redundancy - basically, the relay logic layer can override a computer going bonkers)
Computers are only "perfect" until they screw up in some totally horrible way that could have been prevented by a human operator.
basically, the relay logic layer can override a computer going bonkers
Until the relay logic layer is cut to save costs. Then some kid playing withe the buttons causes a buffer oferflow that instructs the brake drum to go on periment release sending the crowded car plumeting to the ground below.
Not gonna happen, Mike.
Anyway, even if the brake DID release, that doesn't really mean much - because it'll simply trip the govener, which will trip the safeties, and (if installed), rope gripper.
That's assuming the car even moves - which it may not, since it'll have to overcome the friction of the hoist machinery, and if that happens, it might go up, not down anyway. It'll still trip the gov, which will drop the brake and rope gripper.
Anyway, long before any of this would happen, the watchdog would have reset the microprocessor, tri-stating all the output lines, dropping all the connected relays, and dropping the brake (which is failsafe - it needs power to stay released).
Anyway, even if it did happen (even though it's virtually impossible), the elevator would simply hit the final limits, which would kill the power to it, since the finals on the elevator kill the power to the controller. No bypasses or such. At which point, the brake drops, the car stops. This is assuming the safeties didn't trip, the govener didn't trip, the processor didn't reset, and whatever external monitoring devices didn't kill the power.
In any case, the processor that handles car/hall calls is sepperate from the one that handles the regular stuff (at least on our designs).
And right now, I seriously doubt anyone's really going to push to get rid of the relay logic layer. In fact, most everyone wishes the new, tougher ANSI code was the standard national code. Not only is the logic layer in there, but the relays used are of a special type (actually, standard industrial safety types), and the backing contacts are used to verify proper relay operation.
We use a relay logic layer at work, though some use PLDs. We're not convinced a PLD really satisfies the ANSI requirments, because it's not truely hardware. You could do it with 74XX series logic, but since it's 24 - 120V lines everywhere, you'd need lots of optoisolators and such. So relays work better for us.
So.....you were saying again??
The design concept is that if the computer goes bonkers, and does something bad, the logic layer/interlocks won't allow any movement. Such things as door opening, etc are run through interlocks - the computer can click the open relay all it wants, unless the car's in a door zone, the door zone relay's closed, and the close contactor is not in, NOTHING can happen. Ditto for such things as the limits, etc. No matter how ard the computer tries, once the car hits the slowdown limits, the car will slowdown, because the power to the high speed enable ciruits is removed by the actual limit switch itself. Hitting the normals will cause the power to the up or down circuits to be pulled. Hitting the finals pulls ALL the power out. No matter how badly the computer may want to run the car in a particular mode, if it hits a safety limit, it will stop. There's NOTHING the computer can do to override it. In fact, simply backing away from the final limits requires someone to physically go to the controller and jump out the circuit. If the computer wants to run the car out of the door zone with the doors open, it can't. No matter what it does, it simply can't. The circuits to control the drive are broken physically. And if the drive goes bonkers, it can't do anything because it's disconnected from the motor via a contactor.
Nobody's tried to yet, and it's illegal anyway, since the thing's gotta meet code.
And in any case, you need the inputs for everything anyway. No sense NOT interlocking it all.
Anyway, stuff like contactors and all have to be interlocked to work. You surely don't want the supply line getting shorted.....
Even the most dumbed down singe speed AC car switch types have a few (4 to 8) relays for various things.
Oh heck, why do I bother? You're the guy who gets scared shitless if anyone jumps in the elevator :/
Question, why don't elevator have floor cancel buttons, for when you press a floor in error.
Bill "Newkirk"
BTW, when I mentioned platform over runs not being uncommon, I didn't mean they overshoot the station. What I saw was the computer would not stop the train at the exact designated spot, the sensor would 'read' this and prevent the doors from opening. Time and again the operator would advise over the PA, "Passengers, please be patient, I have to go to manual to open the doors. They'll be open in just a moment. Thank you."
The overrun was at Shady Grove after the Blizzard of 96. Central control wouldn't let the operator switch over to manual. When you asked if they went faster in ATO vs. Manual, under normal conditions, manual is generally faster. Obviously, a computer can not analyze the weather conditions as well as a human and permission to operate manually should have been granted. Alot of the time in extreme conditions, Metro operates manually above ground and for the first two stations underground (i.e. a train from Shady Grove would switch to manual at Bethesda. a train from Silver Spring would switch to manual at Judicuary Square).
Stopping short or past the marker is not a rare occurance. It is solved either by the operator opening the door manually, moving up to the next marker, or turning off the train and turning it back on.
PATCO encourages its operators to run manual as much as they want as it is an important skill to keep in practice with.
I didn't ask if they went faster in ATO vs. Manual, I said WMATA says they do, one of the reasons they wanted ATO in the first place. To reduce headways and maintain schedules. They say (or at least used to say) that one of the prime timesavers with ATO is reduced stopping time. That the computer-operated train approaches stations at a much higher rate of speed than a human-operated one will, because it can calculate the braking rate much more accurately. They specifically said that human operators have a habit of slowing down to a moderate speed as they approach or enter a station in order to make it easier to estimate the stopping distance. Multiplied by hundreds of trains per day each making dozens of station stops this adds up. I agree with that. It seemed to me that their trains do come into stations much faster than I'm used to on NYCT. And they brake much harder. Really hard in fact. I just like knowing there's a human being upfront. I'm not too crazy about elevators either. ;=D
They got that silly little monorail in JAX and it's "automated". I'm not to into putting 35 cents in the turnstile going up a filthy escalator, to wait in a dirty station to stand on a train by myself. There's a comfort/safety concern going on there. Do you want an armed guard at your bank, or a hidden camera at the entrance?
Plus i don't like those camera things, are they watching me or the road? :)
And you know what, they need to clean those stations up(if they haven't) you can't run a sucessful new operation when you need to wear gloves to ride the escalator.
Chuck Greene
The subject of the overrun wreck at Shady Grove (A15) came up in the Washington Metro stopping points thread.
I posted the link to the NTSB report in one of my responses in that thread
John
That's one side of the coin, the other is that they programme the computer to slow things down due to whatever stupid reason the TA can pull out of its ass.
The long and short of it is that while computers and other automated systems can provide benefits, they still lack the flexibility that a human can provide. I mean what is the airtrain going to do in case of a cab signal failure? Trot out a whole bunch of inexperianced managers to run things? What happens when there's a brake system failure and a train gets stuck on the beam? I don't know about you, but I don't find piped in voices very comforting. Of course, with out a human crew member to stop me I would get to bust out a window and take a walk on the catwalk.
Michael
Washington, DC
Weekdays: All trains are to be operated in automatic mode
(most likely to maintain headways as trains now operate every 5 minutes in the peak, every 10 minutes off peak)
Weekends: Trains may be operated in automatic or manual at the operator's discretion (not sure if the t/o has to call into control to inform them that he is operating in manual).
Not sure about late nights and overnights (yes Metrorail runs 24/7 now!)
I rarely ride Metrorail on weekdays, but have seen operators operate in manual and automatic on weekends.
I think if there is a GO (which on the single route Metrorail system consists of single tracking on a certain segment to allow track work), all trains must operate in manual, but I'm not 100% sure about this.
Lille VAL -- higher speed, longer distances. Again, the acceleration is fantastic. Don't remember the headways, but I don't remember it being a problem. I'm sick of half-assed T/O's who might or might not have it in for a dispatcher and piddle through the yellows and muddle out of the stations. ATO all the way for me.
David
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
But it's still a very nice gift to receive.
"Roads ? Where we're going, we don't need roads !"
Also, in "Star Wars" Episodes I and II, what's the mass transit system like on planet Coruscant, which is one big city ?
I came upon this interesting ditty that occurred around 1970:
"The error of permitting an R-16 car to remain on the end of an (A) division train as it was transferred to (A) Division tracks on the Jerome Ave. Line seemed a minor problem (despite the damaged signals and platforms due to it's greater width)"
And they say R-16's and R-17's look alike !
Bill "Newkirk"
DANG IT!
Incognito
BTW--I realize many would say "The Best Three" were the Marx Brothers--but they were sometimes four and, on stage, occasionally five. (And don't forget Margaret Dumont.)
But I appreciate the spirit of your post, posting well in advance, as opposed to stupid posts about SUCH AND SUCH ON NOW! that appeal to fewer people.
I came upon this interesting story:
"The most bizarre occured on December 23, 1931, when a northbound BMT work train sped down the incline into the Newkirk Ave. station. As it raced through the station loads of crossties were flung off the flatcars and slammed into the station girders with a sound like cannon shots. 50 of the 150 people waiting for trains were mowed down. The motorman and foreman were immediately arrested. Many varying reports followed, then a major outcry developed over reports that agents from the BMT Claims Department had besieged victims homes. Settlements were eventually made."
Those were the good old days !
Bill "Newkirk"
"In April 1938, the center mezzanine of the BMT Chambers-Centre St. station was turned over to the city's Tax Department in exchange for a new entrance at Reade St. (at the north end of the station). The old mezzanine (directly under the Municipal Building) was converted into a sub-basement and used for record storage. All the stairways were sealed off, those leading up from the two platforms used by passengers were removed entirely."
So this explains the removed stairways from this station that was talked about here months ago. I wonder if that sub-basement still exists and if the original tiling is still evident ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I'm not sure.
Bill "Newkirk"
There used to be a stretcher in an olive drab case mounted vertically on the wall to the right of the door, near the platform edge.
I see in one of Salaam's recent railfan window videos that the stretcher is gone although the metal ladder type mounting bracket still seems to be there.
(This is my first year utilizing the calendar... Kudos to Bill Newkirk!)
(I LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOVE the July image ifyouknowwhaddimean)
R1 #100: The roof is more of a turtleback roof than a deck roof (supposed to be a deck roof).
R11/R34 #8013: The storm door windows are only rectangular, with no circular storm door window inside the rectangular window.
R16 #6387: The R16's have NEVER had a rectangular storm door window. That's supposed to be circular.
Your R-16 is an R-27/30. That was the only cosmetic difference between the 2 cars.
If you're from Brooklyn they're called trolleys.
Anyone else saw the movie?
I don't know, if Mr Negrycz was misquoted. However,
I'll guess either the construction of the World Trade Center or Grand Central Station.
--Mark
I've used Atlantic Ave once before, but I am not familiar with the complex at all. I can't picture what went on on the surface, but based on the article, the tunnel was suspended on the inside of the tunnel, from the top. They drove pilings through the platform and into solid rock for supporting the horizontal crossbeam. Since tunnels are designed to be resting on solid ground and not hanging in the air, once a segment was suspended, they had to immediately install temporary vertical columns underneath the tunnel (using the hydraulic jacks) which eventually held all of the weight. The tunnel wasn't actually suspended in air for the four years, but it had to be suspended for a short amount of time to allow the workers to shore up the bottom which eventually allowed them to work on the passageway.
Either way, this was a helluva engineering feat and it took some creativity to do this. Stuff like this is what made me decide to be a construction engineer. I dream about working on projects like this one day.
- Most or all of the round IRT columns were replaced by big I-beams. I've never seen this done before but I guess it would be to ensure the suspension worked.
- New eastern LIRR access at the end of the platforms of tracks 1-2 and 3-4, leaving you just across the street from the Atlantic Terminal mall.
My Dad saw to it that I got the property tag from #3333, and it is sitting in a plastic box on my desktop, a fitting souvenir. We visited #3333 before she shipped out of 207th Street, a very gory sight inside, with much sharp metal exposed and broken glass hanging down from shattered lenses and flourescent tubes. The jump seat left of the storm door was obliterated, very lucky indeed nobody was seated there else they would surely have been killed.
wayne
What happened at Utica Avenue? I must have missed that one.
wayne
"Call up Personnel and tell them we want a list of all motormen discharged for
cause in the past 25 years..... Someone down there knew how to pull a handbrake!!"
(end Garber mode)
Question
What line stops at the same station in two different borough in the city?
Name the Line and the Station?
Robert
That's 23rd St/8th Av (Manhattan) & 23rd St/Ely Av (Queens)
Robert
Any more?
Incognito
N/W: 36th Street (Brooklyn and Queens)
23RD Street on the E and V (Manhattan and Queens)
See: Post 630716 for Halsey Geography discussion.
The cars in the consist are s/484-1575-401-100/n, and the train itself is decorated with Christmas motif, including pointsetta red bows at both front ends. At 484's end, it is signed up now "BB 6th Ave. - Sixth Ave.-34th St.", while at #100's end is just "S - Special", but that will probably change later on the trip. Yes, R-4 car #401 now has its *original* number back from being "491", and R-1 car #100 does indeed have its green exterior in a different color tone.
-William A. Padron
["Wash.Hts.-6th Av.Lcl."]
Second!
The same cars in the same consist, but as s/100-401-1575-484/n and signed up "S - Special" at both ends. Well, the train is off to destination knowns, and on a quick second look, both cars #100 and #401 did indeed get a great repainting and touch up.
-William A. Padron
["Concourse-6th Av. Exp."]
David
I don't see the sense in everyone continuing to chime in with answers that have been proven factually wrong after the factually correct answer has been given.
David
(Sorry for the delay on the response. I forgot about the thread until I was riding the Q from DeKalb to Canal this afternoon.)
Isn't 86th to Stillwell separated by water?
Go to Google, and search for BAHN 3.59 or BAHN 3.81. It will bring up the site.
I have a fully registered version of 3.81. Someone has designed a better set of NYC cars (including arnines, R142s and R143s), which was posted here a few days ago, but the computer at which I've linked to the site is 50 miles away.
Go to Google, and search for BAHN 3.59 or BAHN 3.81. It will bring up the site.
No, it doesn't (at least not the site I need). I've tried that and I've tried the filters on Subtalk to try and find the thread (but it's buried somewhere).
I was born and raised int he Bronx. And have NO desire to see the place again.
www.bronxboard.com
That I miss...but after my last visit there a few eyars ago, I said the heck with the place. All the good memories were gone.
I bet a lot of people hated the idea of ever coming back to LIC or Fort Greene, and look what's happening now. Hey, WheeeGG6T, Fordham Rd and northward probably have to stay cheesy for the sake of the new arrivals -- they don't WANT SoHo -- but the Hub could be really cool. I love the Bronx.
76th Street *does* exist.
The debate is over the existance of a SUBWAY STATION at that location.
Besides, this is a perfectly GOOD topic for discussion, it has been going on for several years, and I see no good reason for stopping it now!
: )-
Since supernatural things don't really exist, that makes it an apt metaphor for 76th Street.
Anything MIGHT exist, by your logic there's a tooth fairy because it cannot be disproved.
DON'T STOP BELIEVING.......
May 76th Street live on... FOREVER!!!!! ;-D
And then after 10 PM you service once every 10 hours :-)
Simulated passengers means five-foot, 150 lb. mannequins, not 6x12-inch cinder blocks.
That's Sunday January 4, the same day as the train show at the American Legion in Brooklawn and the Gateway Model Railroad open house, a half block down the track (Conrail) from the Legion.
Big railfan day for South Jersey.
See the Bombardier goons beat up Jersey Mike for calling their project "The Doggle".
Those C line conductors in the late 1980's must have been buff.
BTW, I had never seen a single female conductor on the R10's, and by 1988 there were quite a few of them. Was there some policy which prevented them from working these cars?
Actually, the way the pantograph gates fit yer bod, you were safe as in a mother's arms out there ...
Those cars are all single units. The cabs are for operators only. The conuctor's controls are on the outside of the car and he has to stand like that to operate the doors.
Just speculating - but the idea may have been to give the conductor a better line of sight over the train.
Result: much less dwell time than today, no draggings, no need for a computer screen to tell you which car's doors aren't closed. Downside, you got WET. I did it for a living, and aside from getting wet, wasn't bad at all ...
From the step plates, you're looking OVER the arch roof and are standing MUCH higher than people on the platform. You can see OVER them and see the far ends of the train from "up there." You have a line of sight to the guard lights for the doors, and best of ALL, the zebras are RIGHT in your face. No need to point, can't miss them up there. But to truly appreciate the value, you really need to find the opportunity to see for yourself.
And ... as the train's taking off, should a signal head or a fencepost be headed your way, you can duck back REAL fast without hitting your head on the wall ... there used to be a lot more wayside objects years ago and you didn't hear of conductors getting hit by them once they've finished "observing" ... seriously though, go to the museum, try it out for yourself. You may need to arrange ahead of time, I don't know if they let you just climb out there anymore but Steve 8th Ave Exp did it years ago. Might just be a matter of asking someone to let you see for yourself there ...
I guess we'll have to take up a contribution now to send the boy off to Kennebunkport. Wonder if some kind soul at the NYC museum can "work something out" so he can see for himself how much SAFER it was for the public when we stood on our perch and could see EVERYTHING. I never liked working the 32's because I'd keep hitting my head on the bulkhead, had to stretch and hem and haw out the window and STILL couldn't see my damned train at rush hour. I *always* lost time on 32's whereas I was on time or hot on arnines ...
Back when you were between cars, you were standing higher than the crowd (that had to be intimidating to most ne'er-do-wells) and you looked like you were in a perfect position to dive and tackle "in the event" out there. In addition, those generous "TA mittens" on your hands just made you seem to most as two separate gorillas NOT to be trifled with. Today, locked away in a booth, doing the whackamole thing like a prarie dog out the window probably explains the exponential number of "incidents" for conductors as compared to the old days. :(
And if the train was buckin', you just used TWO grab handles until she stopped. "Three points of contact, make it to the terminal." But normally, it was grab, climb, reach, handle of trigger box. Get into place, slip your fingers into the "hole of happiness" and do what you got paid for. To be a car monkey, and look "snappy." But it all gets to be reflex. It's as natural as getting in and out of bed, only vertical. Heh.
I used to see conductors do that.
view results
So, I'll try it again...
See pic of roll sign here: http://www.subwayspot.com/fantrips/arnine/images/sat/76thStreet.jpg
It's a clever fake.
No proff of 76th there.
Too bad.
This Is What I Live For...
Now, now, you're the opposite extreme.
I'll believe something without seeing it (I've never seen a proton, nor has anyone, but I know they exist), but nobody has demonstrated from observation that 76th Street can reasonably exist.
;)
This Is What I Live For...
Multiple votes are blocked.
Dammit, so they are!
Dammit, so they are!
So,,, Erase your cookies and try again... with a different IP Number too.
Neat idea. I wonder what it'd do if I told my comp not to take cookies?
I would interpret that:
possibly = "good possibility but not certain"
not convinced = "equal chance of yes or no or don't have enough info"
Make sense?
Anyone who believes in 76th Street is a moron, plain and simple.
76th Street Phantom Station
Do you believe there is an abandoned IND subway station at 76th Street, Ozone Park, Queens, NY?
YES, absolutely (10) 12%
Possibly (28) 33%
Not convinced one way or the other (11) 13%
I doubt it (16) 19%
NO, definitely not (19) 23%
Total Votes: 84
Rapidtransit.com
Must be more morons out there than you thought.
Mark me down as "NO, definitely not" for 76th Street and also for UFOs are spaceships from another planet.
It's a little too late to change questions.
Moron - functions at the level of up to a 12 year old
Imbicile - funcitoins at the level of up to an 8 year old
Idiot - functions at the level of up to a 3 year old.
So my vote was "possibly" ... I'll let others judge my sanity though. :)
I've been told that there was once enough space to layup trains. It'd be nice if there were more to it, but alas Geraldo still hadn't shown up yet to break through the cement. I imagine once he's done pawning his Iraqi booty, we might hear from him. Unless he gets abducted by a UFO of course. (grin)
BTW, You might want to elaborate on that moron thing. Because eventually somone will have to find out and end this annoying myth. So I urge anyone with the ability to do so, to go back there and find out.
And before anyone here objects saying it's stupid because there wasn't anything built back there, how about letting the people go and proving you right or wrong.
http://www.radlab.net/pages/1/index.htm
Sheesh!
What I'd MUCH rather see personally is more nuts and bolts type stuff, operating practices on the newer cars and things that matter to ME a former conductor and motorman, but with MTA not allowing nitty details, war stories and other patriot act foolishness where we suppress ourselves to spare the terrorists from doing it for us (their goal: shut down America, Isolate America, cause America to be obsessed with getting blowed up and general fear - whew! Glad THAT didn't happen) about all we have to hope for other than discussions of TPH *is* 76th or I'd have to harm myself. (grin)
IT *DOES* EXIST!
: ) Elias
And before anyone here objects saying it's stupid because there wasn't anything built back there, how about letting the people go and proving you right or wrong.
First, just as with any other rumor, whether its Roswell Aliens, Atlantis or 76th Street, I think the first responsibility is for those who think it is there to offer definitive proof.
All the anecdotal proof I know of has been adequately to convincingly refuted, and then some.
However...
Having said that, of course I would be in favor of any reasonable effort to prove the issue, one way or the other. Joe Brennan walked the area and knowledgably took into account all the factors that would point to either its existence or not, and concluded with "not."
I could prove it to my own satisfaction simply by visiting a few agencies that have to be knowledgeable about what's underneath the street. I'm curious enough to do this, but, frankly, it's way down my list of Things I Want To Do Or Need To Do But Haven't Gotten Around To Them.
And consider...
How many people who believe it might be there really want to find out that it isn't? It's FUN to think it's down there. It's BORING to think that there's nothing there but dirt, gas pipes, maybe a filled-in stub of a couple of hundred feet, and some worms.
The science, history and sci-fi writer L. Sprague deCamp wrote an outstanding book on Atlantis. He ran down the origin of the myth, examined all the possible locations, discussed all the theorists, and threw in a considerable body of archeological and geologic evidence to demonstrate that there never was an Atlantis, or anything like, anywhere that it was supposed to be.
But, guess what, finding out that Atlantis, or Santa Claus doesn't exist, or that Elvis is really dead, just isn't interesting. And as for LSdeC's book is concerned, all the Atlantis proponents simply ignored it.
So...
Other than digging up the entire street, what would possibly convince proponents of 76th Street that it isn't there, enough to reward someone for the trouble of even bothering to look?
I disagree. There are lot more fun things than believing in fairy tales.
Ain't Neither! Lotsa people like cute fairy tails, or so I am told.
: )-
And if only it was a little more straight, I could use it in the other BVE route I'm working on.
Blame Wayne-Mr Slant for that!! : )
Damn Chris, if the 7 and 6 weren't so digital-looking this might actually look somewhat realistic.
Hehehehe. Well, they are made out of the other letters in the real mosaic, so I had to work with what I was given in the actual mosaic name. (The 7 made out of the H, the 6 made out of the E, the S moved, and the T made out of the other E).
I believe in Santa Claus and will do so until someone provides conclusive evidence that he doesn't exist.
Here is a pic taken with a spy cam - 76th Street is now a secret base for a special Homeland Security Team
No proff required!
Because it costs money to build something, and money doesn't get spent for no purpose. A subway tunnel and a station doesn't get built because of an accounting error.
BTW, You might want to elaborate on that moron thing. Because eventually somone will have to find out and end this annoying myth. So I urge anyone with the ability to do so, to go back there and find out.
As Paul Matus has said (and I have said before), nothing will convince those that believe in 76th Street that it doesn't exist. The body of evidence they use to prove their point consists entirely of hearsay and conjecture that is easily refuted.
And before anyone here objects saying it's stupid because there wasn't anything built back there, how about letting the people go and proving you right or wrong.
Because it would be a waste of time and money.
Because it costs money to build something, and money doesn't get spent for no purpose. A subway tunnel and a station doesn't get built because of an accounting error.
Not so. The line *was* planned, the track leads to it *do* exist, it *was* part of the tower board. People *do* plan for expansion, and it clearly *was* part of the original contract to make accomodation for this expansion, after all, the leads *were* built, right up to the concrete wall.
That the subsequent contract was never let is not the fault of those who in good faith fulfilled the first contract.
I am convinced that *NOTHING* exists beyond that concrete wall. That wall is there to shore up the existing tunnel and to protect it from land slides from the unexcavated part. Furthermore, *IF* there were a tunnel (let alone a station) in there, it WOULD HAVE TO BE INSPECTED perhaps monthly. Abandoned coal mines in Pennsylvania are inspected daily, even though all that ever go in there are the inspectors. (They mark the walls with chalk, with dates and signatures to proff that they were in there and that they were inspecting the place.) If such inspections were taking place at 76th Street, the inspectors would know about it, and they would know where the access places are located.
Elias
Does anyone know if the Polo Grounds Shuttle tunnels are inspected? They've been abandoned for nearly 45 years now. Last I recall, the Bronx boro president's office (re)sealed the tunnel because of vagrants setting fires, so there shouldn't be access to anyone now. My opinion is that these tunnels are not inspected.
--Mark
Really? How long ago was this? From the photos and report of the SubTalk field trip to the shuttle, it appeared there was access to the tunnel via several mediums, one of which was a door in the walled-off tunnel.
About three years ago
Take a virtual tour.
I haven't been back to that location since Feb 2000 to see for myself if the sealant is still there.
--Mark
There is evidence to suggest it may exist, but not conclusive enough to prove it. Nothing you have put forth conclusively proves it doesn't exist, either. This battle and this discussion will never end, because nothing objective enough will ever be found.
The fact of the sand, in and of itself, supports the lack of existence of the station. Sand or rubble would be used to fill a void to stablize the surface. If a sand plug exists, there would either have to be a similar plug at the "station" end or the station itself would have to similarly be filled in. This (filling incomplete tunnels) has been done, most recently on the subway system for the piece of the 2nd Avenue subway downtown.
A station of that size being filled in would be a major project, probably requiring opening the street and LOTS of fill.
The biggest single non-technical argument against the station for me is that I was around in the era when the IND connection was made and knew a lot of knowledgeable railfans who knew arcana like abandoned stuff. Martin Schachne (who knew about, explored, and described the Atlantic Avenue tunnel decades before Bob Diamond independently rediscovered it) and I once toured the locations of IND vestages like Utica Avenue and Roosevelt, and he never said a word about 76th Street. It's like trying to hide an elephant in your sock drawer.
unless someone comes across construction documents that state exactly how much was built before they cancelled construction and constructed the ramp to Liberty Ave instead.
You don't need any such thing. A visit to the city's street department, sewer department and/or Brooklyn Union Gas will tell you all you need to know.
Hey Jeff, please email me. Thanks.
No. I look at each piece of evidence that has been put forth by the opposition and easily discount it. Read my posts.
But if it was in the planning then there is a minute possibility that there may have been some construction back there, but ended.
As Paul Matus has said (and I have said before), nothing will convince those that believe in 76th Street that it doesn't exist. The body of evidence they use to prove their point consists entirely of hearsay and conjecture that is easily refuted.
There I agree. Of course the concrete evidence of 76 streets existence is in the far end of Pitkin Yard.
Because it would be a waste of time and money
But it isn't your time and money being wasted. It's their time and money being wasted. And we can't honestly say something wasn't built back there. Of course I personally find it hard to believe a station was built back there.
The tunnel leading to what would have been 76st is on A7 leading to Grant Avenue.
All that is visible is a tunnel, and a wall. No proof that a station exists there.
We see from Roosevelt Ave and Utica/Fulton that abandoned stations aren't just walled off and left alone. The city would have found some use for the station such as storage. Also as pointed out earlier it would still have to be maintained and the structural integrity inspected from time to time.
Maybe that's true with Roosevelt & Utica but it's not always true. What about the stations at Sedgewick Av and Anderson Avenue?
There is a 76th Street station!!
There is a 76th Street station!!
Sedgewick Avenue doesn't have any track leads to it so it can't be used as storage. That portion is probably looked at from time to time for structural integrity.
And there isn't a 76th street station.
It seems to me that if the IND planned to build a subway line there (which I'm not sure of, I'm a bit sketchy on the 2nd system) and was in the process of being planned or built when it was stopped then perhaps something exsists back there. Sure it's highly unlikely that there'd be a 1940's vintage IND station sitting back there with incandesant lighting and all, but at the same time it's only slightly less unlikely that there is nothing back there at all.
Given that Selkirk has secondhand knowledge of tail tracks in that area I'd wager that there is something down there.
When has it been stated that the wall at the end of the tracks is false? And what makes a wall false anyway? Is this wall a curtain? It is made of iron? :-)
In any case, since 76th Street/Emerald Street is the borough line, and if the tunnel ends at the borough line (and this I do not know), then there could not have been tracks without a station if there ever were tracks behind the wall. The wall would have been the western extent of the station.
So either there was a station or there was never anything past the wall. Even with your account, the latter seems more likely.
Interesting. I usually see an 8-car R-32 set parked on the Manhattan-bound track, but I once saw an 8-car R-44 set parked there. If it pulled up to the bumper, then the wall is definitely way before the boro line. However, if there is a significant distance between the end of the useable portion of the track and the bumper (and thus the wall), then it may very well be under the boro line, and what you say may be true.
BUT...
I highly doubt this, as after walking the Pitkin Yard area, and walking the Pitkin Av/Conduit area many times, based on where the subway gratings are for the yard leads, and the direction the yard leads point, I don't think the yard leads towards 76th could have turned, became level with the 4 mainline tracks, and merged into them, in such a short distance.
As to 76th Street itself, nobody I've ever talked to said it was there - the only thing that was ever said was that there WERE tracks beyond the cement blocks, that they HAD been used from time to time for layups on a RARE basis and that there were trackways that extended past the end of the rails. That's IT ...
Because the physical fact of a station or station shell is either there, or it ain't. Our knowledge of its existence can be is a maybe, but it's actual existence isn't a maybe.
Because she is all out of frogs legs and newets, and her broth is going to be ruined!
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
For those who aren't aware, Webster Avenue is the end of the relay north of 205th "tail tracks" ... and YES, it's there. ANYONE can SEE it for themselves. Still non-revenue track. I suspect that 76th Street is the same deal, though once the swing to the Fulton was done, there was no need for what remained anymore, so they bricked it up. That's what *I* think "76th Street" was all about and didn't go much further. AT least Webster Avenue "station" is real. Heh.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Peace,
ANDEE
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Elias
Peace,
ANDEE
Here are a few observations:
I walked down to the bumpers on A1, A2, A3, and A4 the other day. There were trains laid up on 3 and 4 tracks. A2, A3, and A4 end at columb number 411+50. That means that these tracks extend to about the same distance as columb number 411+50 in the Grant Avenue station, so these tracks overlap the Grant ave station about 100 feet. That means the bumpers are pretty much under Pitkin ave. between Grant and Elderts Lane.
There is a hydrolic pump room in the wide area by the bumpers and probably explains the manhole cover in the middle of the street just east of Grant, and also the one on the sidewalk by Grant and Pitkin Ave.
A1 track (queens bound local) is about 25 or thirty feet shorter then the other three tracks.
Here is the part that I find baffling. While A2 track has a smooth concrete bulkhead, A1, 3 and 4 have poured concrete bulkheads with many steel guirders embedded in them, which is not usually the case where further expansion is anticipated. Most bulkheads that are temporary dont have all those steel guirders embedded in them.
OK, I also walked the two stubs (A7 and A8) from Pitkin Yard and found them to be EXACTLY like the previous posters had said: Two hundred feet long, with a cinderblock wall at the end. There were attempts to poke holes in the blocks, and someone tried to dig under them, and the shovel is still there. I do believe these two tracks continued on for several reasons. The bench wall on A7 was cut and all the duct work in the benchwall was dismantled so the wall could be built. There was evidence of third rail in place at one time because I saw the remants of the third rail cable work and the ties drilled for the insulators and the holes in those tied had the lag marks in them, in addition to the spike holes. There were many old track plates laying around stacked in piles, far more then the amount that would be used in the initial two hundred feet, and all were in used condition. Also, these plates are old styled and are not of the type used today. The very last tie at the cinderblock wall was drilled for a third rail insulator, which means that it has to go at least two feet farther then that tie.
I only know these things because I am an active employee and have been on the job for over fifteen years.
I read this board for awhile, and I am glad that I am now a poster here.
Is there a station down there?
If we wasn't so busy figuring out what color underwear Lois Lane was wearing, of course...
I agree.
After someone gets past the bulkheads, we'll know if there is a station or not.
Not necessarily. There could be more obstacles beyond the bulkheads.
(a) A wrecked elevated train
(b) A giant three-headed dog
(c) The missing WMD
(d) Osama bin Laden
--Mark
The Polo Grounds Shuttle, if it truly is inaccessible, seems to be one of a kind. Can you name another?
Also, welcome to SubTalk!
---Sir Ronald of McDonald
The 4 tracks that continue east are A1-A4. It's an established fact that the tunnel housing them ends at the bulkheads.
A7-A8 coming from the yard are the tracks that everyone is debating about. These tunnels end at a wall that seems to have more tunnel past it.
If what I draw is correct, then there is little reason for ANYONE to believe 76th street exists. If tracks A1-A4 were not extended, why would two tracks from a yard be extended? That makes no sense.
If we know for a certainty that A1-A4 end at the wall, as Jeff H suggests, then there's no reason to believe 76th street exists.
There aren't many examples of disused underground structure made completely inaccessible. The only one I can think of offhand is the trolley tunnel under Ocean Parkway, but that was back-filled with rubble.
A guess on the A7 and A8 is that some soil or structural defect was found that wasn't worth the cost of fixing.
Woodhaven Blvd, perhaps?
An oft-cited example of abandoned structure that has been
completely sealed is the "polo grounds shuttle" tunnel.
However, that is blasted through solid rock and there is no
steel structure to worry about.
Do you know of another example? Even the Atlantic Avenue tunnel had access (no steel structure there either). I'm rather surprised that even the shuttle tunnel is apparently completely sealed.
--Mark
Maybe it wasn't structural. How long were they? It was mentioned at one time they were used for regular layups, but of how many cars? Maybe they were too short to be practically used with newer equipment, so they were removed (and the rails possibly used elsewhere).
I walked to the bumpers again on A1, A2, A3, and A4 yesterday and went up the emergency exit to the street. This exit is 100 feet from the end of the tunnel between A2 and A4. When you look east from the exit, you see the big silver manhole cover that goes down to the hydrolic room which is 100 feet away under the north sidewalk on Pitkin, just east of Grant Ave. So using my trusty 50 foot tape measure, I figured out that A2 ends under the municipal parking lot, 20 feet east of Grant Ave. The wide area that is between A2 and A4 ends under the north sidewalk, 20 feet east of Grant (right after the big silver manhole cover). A3 and A4 end under Pitkin Ave, 20 feet east of Grant Ave. The wide area between A1 and A3 plus A1 end just before Grant Ave, or just under it.
Looking around upstairs, I figured out why A1 was shortened. On the south side of Pitkin, between Grant Ave and Elderts Lane, there is a row of houses that apear newer then the other houses in the area. If A1 ended where the other three tracks ended, it would be pretty much in the basement of the first house on the corner. My guess is it was cut back during the construction of those houses!
So, now that got me thinking about the stubs (A7 and A8)which end in the cinderblock wall 100 feet or so northeast of the big strip vents in the grass between the lanes of Conduit Ave. If one stands on those vents and looks toward the direction those stubs were headed, They go directly under those same houses, and my guess is that is why they were walled up also.
So in my most humble opinion, if you tear down that cinderblock wall and walk a few feet, you would run smack-dab into the foundations of those homes.
This may not be a scientific survey, but I am pretty sure I am right.
As to what is east of that block under Pitkin Ave, I dont know. I know there are no signs of anything there, as I walked Pitkin from Grant to Cross bay Blvd. a few times looking at every manhole. Not saying its not under there, but I tend to think its not.
It's also possible the station (If it's there at all) is just an empty shell.
Like S4th street. Why isn't S4th street so popular?
10) Maybe there is no tower nearby with a control board that says the South 4th Street Station name.
9) The planned roadbed to the station is not in plain sight to rail fans.
8) There have been no homes built over the station with building foundations blocking the ROW.
7) It is a given the station is there so no one is looking for it.
6) It was discussed at length years ago in subtalk and no one wants to bring up that old topic.
5) Someone read about the station in the Brooklyn Newspaers years ago and won't argue against it.
4) It wasn't brought up at length in the abondoned subway stations/line web page.
3) Ever since the Broadway Station on the G line was rebuilt, No one wants to negotiate with the different departments about organizating a railfan trip over there.
2) David Letterman refused to touch this subject for a top 10 list of his own.
And the Number 1 reason why isn't South 4th street so popular?
1) Too many people making fun of who/what is buried at the other IND station.
See pic of roll sign here: http://www.subwayspot.com/fantrips/arnine/images/sat/76thStreet.jpg
Now what do you think?
Do you mean between Eldert La and Forbell St? The south side of
Pitkin bet Grant and Eldert looks like a small triangle.
It doesn't seem likely that the basement or foundation of
a house would have fouled A1-A4 tracks. They are pretty deep
and, it seems, aligned under the center of Pitkin ave, not
fouling any property lines.
However, the A7-A8 tracks would have gone up and over the
main line tracks and then merged just west of 76 St station
(according to a map drawn by David Rogoff which was published
in the July 2001 issue of the NYD ERA Bulletin).
They may have been high enough to have been in the way.
"Do you mean between Eldert La and Forbell St? The south side of
Pitkin bet Grant and Eldert looks like a small triangle."
No, the houses in question are in that small triangle block. The house on the corner is a BIG three story brick job.
"It doesn't seem likely that the basement or foundation of
a house would have fouled A1-A4 tracks. They are pretty deep
and, it seems, aligned under the center of Pitkin ave, not
fouling any property lines."
Actually they are not deep at all, Remember that Grant Ave fare collection is street level and the station is just a short flight down. The "A" tracks are just below that, so a big three story house with a basement would be in the way, especially if they sunk piles or added concrete due to the size of the house. Also, with the two wide areas between A1 and A3, and between A2 and A4, A2 is under the parking lot and A1 would be under the house if it was the same length as the other three tracks.
"However, the A7-A8 tracks would have gone up and over the
main line tracks and then merged just west of 76 St station
(according to a map drawn by David Rogoff which was published
in the July 2001 issue of the NYD ERA Bulletin).
They may have been high enough to have been in the way."
Yes, A7 and A8 are only six feet underground from the time they leave the yard to the time they end at the cinderblock wall. I know this for a couple of reasons. Walking the length of the tracks, one can see the street grates and the underside of the manhole covers and they are only six feet or so from the tunnel ceiling.
See if you can estimate the depth based on the climb up from the
emergency exit to the street.
When the city built Euclid Ave they left two options for further
expansion. One was to continue along Pitkin Ave; the next stop
would have been the infamous 76 St (a local stop), with the line
continuing on to some fantasized point in southeast queens (just
like the Hillside Ave subway was supposed to reach Springfield
Blvd). This was all "second system" stuff. The other option was
to recapture the Liberty Ave. el from the former BMT division.
Of course the latter option was the one subsequently taken.
Leads for both options were built and sealed with bulkheads.
One of these bulkheads is downstairs where A1-A4 layup tracks
are, the other was on the A7-A8 tracks, but further along than
the current cinderblock wall. A third bulkhead was on the
A7/A8 tracks that currently go to Grant Ave.
The A1-A4 tracks are fairly low because the current mainline
tracks and the current yard leads pass on top of them.
Also, according to the proposed plan, the A7/A8 leads going
towards 76 St. would have come in from the top too.
You are right though that the right-of-way is 6 or 7 tracks wide
at that point so some of the tracks must be under the sidewalk
or even the property line of the houses.
The second-hand (third-hand now since I am repeating it) reports
of "Tunnel Rat" based on interviewing several transit patrolmen and
signal maintainers back in the 60s and 70s are all consistent:
Access was via the A7 or A8 lead, which at the time was being used
for layups. Beyond the bumping blocks was the bulkhead. There
was a structure door in the bulkhead. Going through the door,
the invert continued and, the eyewitnesses reported, the single-track
tunnel structure terminated in a roughed-out local station
with blue tile on the walls. There was no other access to
the area and it was a popular hideout. In particular, no reports
of any way to get to the station from A1-A4 tracks.
I think we both believe the same thing, that at some point during
subsequent home or road construction in the area, those lead
tracks were back-filled, leaving no easy means of access. Surely
they would have known about the station at the time, so if they did
not provide a means of getting down there, it would make sense
that they back-filled that as well.
The 2 car "Greenport scoot" is on the left
The little "town" the station has
The stationhouse
Later at St James I saw a 4 car train heading to Port Jeff
And here's some pics of Carle Place
Got lucky an M7 was passing by!
SO HA TO YOU DISBELIEVERS! Also several other subtalkers saw it and can confirm what I saw!
This Is What I Live For...
And in what way does this prove the station exists?
AND it would be on PITKIN not FULTON!
Sheesh!
IIRC, Rockaway Ave was the terminal for the Fulton line for a while, and is a local stop.
Rockaway Ave was the terminal for a while. I think there was temporary platforms over the current local tracks.
YES IT IS! THE SUBJECT WAS CLOSED LONG AGO!
til next time
Kind of like the white text on a black field Dulles Airport destination that was on the sign rolls of the WMATA Rohr cars when they were delivered from the manufacture.
John
PROFF
BTW, I think you hit a new low with this post.
Also, not the same font as I could find on other roll-signs on pictures here at nycsubway.org. For example, the vertical bars on the T and F are quite narrow compared to other rollsigns, and the entire width of all the letters left to right does not fill up the width of the window, unlike other pictures of rollsigns from that era (see, for example http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?2650)
Also they have curved elements, the letters in this sign are straight segments.
Click on the little arrow pointing down next to the back button, it shows a menu of previous sites. If you have Netscape 4.x, then one gets this menu by holding down the back button.
Thanks!
However, pictures from SciGuy6586 and Newkirk Plaza David have a white border around the words.
If you are claiming to have all taken pictures of the same roll-sign on the same train, then your evidence would fail to stand up in court.
OK - OK.... I'll confess - we are actually all using a picture taken at the same location - someone inserted the 76th Street sign - white border and all - on one end of car # 1575 in the MOD trip on Saturday. I took the picture from between cars then I ran mine through Photoshop before posting it to eliminate the border :-)
I'm not on Sunday's trip so I don't know if the sign is still there.
Do I really believe in the existence of 76th Street? I can honestly say that I have not formed an opinion either way - I don't lose any sleep over it either ;-)
With all due respect, all I can say is, nice try, but it ain't gonna fly.
Rollsigns can be faked.
BSM has many recreated Baltimore signs, done by our expert sign shop.
We have genuine signs and recreated signs. You cannot tell the difference, unless you look for the "Manufactured by the Dawson Illuminated Car Sign Company, Catonsville, Maryland" on the end blank sign.
For the record - a station at 76th Street never existed.
Just because it's on a tower board and there's tail tracks that go in that direction doesn't mean another station is in that way.
Everything that seems to prove the existance of a 76th Street station is either Photoshopped or faked (like the sign on 1575).
Even Steve the Tunnel Rat has never produced one pice of hard evidence to back up his claims.
So again: There is no station at 76th Street. Period, paragraph.
I believe it DID exist at one time, but has since been backfilled.
Regards,
Jimmy
Did anybody think of Illinois with CTA, Metra, South Shore Line, lite rail in East Saint Louis and Amtrak.
John
That why I thought of Illinois over the metropolitan Washington area. The massage header asks.
"States with Most Stations"
John
Chicago Transit Authority (CTA)
Merta
Northern Indiana Commuter Transportation District
Bi-State Development Agency (St. Louis Metro)
Amtrak
This is what I came up with;
CTA 142
RTA 190
South Shore 8
East St. Louis 10
Amtrak 13
Total 363
John
New York State has 746 unique train stations.
Here is my work:
NYC Subway: 468 stations - http://www.lirr.org/nyct/facts/ffintro.htm
Metro North: 84 stations (did not count 36 Connecticut stations) - http://mta.info/mnr/html/faqs.htm
LIRR: 124 stations - http://mta.info/lirr/pubs/aboutlirr.htm
SIRR: 22 stations - http://mta.info/nyct/maps/simap.htm
PATH: 6 stations
Buffalo Subway: 14 stations
Syracuse OnTrack: 8 stations
Adirondack Scenic Railraod: 12 stations
Amtrak: 8 stations
Is that stations or booths?
The website says station. Also, I forgot to include AirTrain stations. Does anyone know the number of unique AirTrain stations?
David
Enjoy and Leave Comments, because they'll always appreciated!
IMPORTANT Due to the constricts of the website some photos will not look good, but tomorrow after day 2 all HIGH QUALITY photos will be posted!
This would create an alternative commuter rail service between Philly and New York. If accomplished, you could take the SEPTA R3 to West Trenton and thence to NYC (or other places) in place of using the R7/NJT NEC line.
Other proposals include running trains that same route until they reach the westchester side, where they will connect to the Hudson line and trains will head south to GCT
the third proposal that i remember off the top of my head, has trains continuing on the westchester side along 287 to white plains, where the connect to the harlem line and trains turn south to GCT
Check tha MTA site, they may still have the plans up.
All of the niche market services your mentioned can be more economically filled with express busses. Yes yes buses are evil, but when they can free up money for more useful projects like 120mph running to Albany or restored service over the high bridge, I am all for it.
Also, the 287 rail line is the greatest project ever. Yeah, TZX is running a few buses, but they only go from suffern to White Plains. The rail line would connect to the Hew Haven line. I think I read somewhere that trains would continue to New Haven via that line. Now tell me, what bus does that? Also, as far as buses go, they're great, but they can't do the job alone. Unfortunately, too many people have that sense that buses are dirty blah blah blah. Even if we were to get people to start taking the buses, the buses alone cant handle it. That's why a rail line is needed to cross westchester, and hopefully continue on to New Haven.
And Secaucus is best for Midtown commuters.
Yeah, TZX is running a few buses, but they only go from suffern to White Plains.
These are buses. It isn't hard to run them wherever they're needed.
I think I read somewhere that trains would continue to New Haven via that line. Now tell me, what bus does that?
One that uses the Governor John Davis Lodge Connecticut Turnpike, also known as Interstate 95.
Unfortunately, too many people have that sense that buses are dirty blah blah blah.
It would be far cheaper to have a campaign convincing people of the cleanliness of buses than it would be to build a white elephant of a rail line.
Even if we were to get people to start taking the buses, the buses alone cant handle it.
Why don't you stop for a while and think about what you're saying. First you say that nobody likes to ride buses, then you say the buses can't handle it.
Sorry, it doesn't work both ways.
That's why a rail line is needed to cross westchester, and hopefully continue on to New Haven.
The market for inter-suburban rail services is usually pretty piss poor.
Secaucus only works for commuters to the west side. LIRR only goes to the west side as of now, but ESA is being worked on, allwoing LIRR to provide service to both customers on the east and west sides. Why can't Metro North/NJT passengers have these options? What, are they not good enough?
"These are buses. It isn't hard to run them wherever they're needed. "
That's true about the buses. You can easily add an extension of the route, which is one thing that I really like about them, but think about it for just a minute. Buses:
1. Pollute
2. Do not hold as many people as a train can, not even a 1 car train
3. Can get stuck in traffic
"One that uses the Governor John Davis Lodge Connecticut Turnpike, also known as Interstate 95."
Ha ha. Very funny. Now tell me what non-chartered public bus does that route, from even just Nyack to Port Chester, or Rye, or Stamford. None. The closes is Shortline, which has only 3 buses a day I think, picking up and dropping off in Nanuet, White Plains, and New Rochelle, then on to LI.
"It would be far cheaper to have a campaign convincing people of the cleanliness of buses than it would be to build a white elephant of a rail line. "
DuH! I'm not that stupid ya know. Still, TZX would need to extend service to Port Chester.
"Why don't you stop for a while and think about what you're saying. First you say that nobody likes to ride buses, then you say the buses can't handle it. "
Actually, I never did say that. I said "Unfortunately, too many people have that sense that buses are dirty blah blah blah." Besides, even if I had said that nobody likes to ride buses, that still has no connection with the fact that the buses cant handle the amount of riders that the rail line would bring.
"The market for inter-suburban rail services is usually pretty piss poor."
Ok then. If this is so, then tell me why 287 is backed up every day? And so is 95. Hey, ya know what. I bet a few of those people on 95, they go on to 287! Or, OMG, get this, maybe the reverse too! Wow. That is just too unbelievable, and American Pig is saying that there is hardly a market for this, so, out the window with that theory.
Seriously, lots of people commute within westchester county. White Plains, Stamford, New Haven...these are all places that a lot people drive to in order to work.
There's also the Leprechaun Lines bus running between White Plains and Poughkeepsie and another Short Line service between Newburgh and Poughkeepsie, IINM.
The could cooperate with Metro North and advertise these bus services as "extensions" and supplements to the rail lines, thus more people actually being made aware of the bus services and taking advantage of them.
No tracks on the bridge, OTOH -- that would be pretty short-sighted.
Same with the Hempstead line.
Why would you want that? Wouldn't an extension of the M&E be better for Phillipsburg service?
120 mph running to Albany can be achieved with diesels; following that, it is a matter of signaling. Metro-North will never acquiesce to upgrading signals to allow such speeds, I continue to think.
And if Hoboken Terminal has some surplus capacity, GCT has even more. You can bet that trains running to GCT from Rockland and Orange Counties will be quite full. “Express buses”, which already exist, will never cut it – such things have had over a half-century to prove themselves, but all they have proven is that they will never have the appeal, speed, or capacity of a direct train to Manhattan.
PS. NJT returning to West Trenton will be a limited-service deal, and the way NJT wants to run the new service, there will end up being finger-pointing within a year of startup, with opponents making it look like another AC line situation.
That's not true. Both GCT and Hoboken are served by 4-track trunk lines. As is being shown by the tunnel re-hab project Hoboken can fit all of its traffic into 2 tracks. I would love to see GCT try that.
You can bet that trains running to GCT from Rockland and Orange Counties will be quite full.
Then so would trains running into Hoboken. I am not into the concept of spending hundreds of millions of dollars just so some lazy parkers don't need to change their seats in the morning. If those people want a one seat ride they can buy a house in Westchester or Putman.
Express buses, which already exist, will never cut it such things have had over a half-century to prove themselves, but all they have proven is that they will never have the appeal, speed, or capacity of a direct train to Manhattan.
The Express Buses would serve the SMALLER intra-suburban commuting market. Suburban bussiness is SO decentralized anyway that rail transit dosen't even make sense.
This means that both roads and railroads would have to pay property taxes, and there would be fees for pollution, because the air is a public good, but
MASS TRANSIT IS NOT A PUBLIC GOOD!
That's not true. Both GCT and Hoboken are served by 4-track trunk lines. As is being shown by the tunnel re-hab project Hoboken can fit all of its traffic into 2 tracks. I would love to see GCT try that
What??? Hoboken has far less traffic than it had in the past. GCT has more than double the platform capacity of Hoboken. Don’t even try to tell me that Hoboken currently hosts the amount of trains that GCT does, or potentially could.
You can bet that trains running to GCT from Rockland and Orange Counties will be quite full. Then so would trains running into Hoboken
No. Not compared to trains running right into GCT. Are you pretending that Midtown Direct on NJT’s Morristown Line didn’t happen? Or are you forgetting that there currently is rail service into Rockland and Orange Counties? Sorry, but reality is reality. Sending the trains right into Midtown would automatically result in trains that are more full than they are now. Not to mention that if Hoboken were so desirable a destination by rail, then Midtown Direct service would be utterly minimal.
I am not into the concept of spending hundreds of millions of dollars just so some lazy parkers don't need to change their seats in the morning. If those people want a one seat ride they can buy a house in Westchester or Putman
Then you are not into progress. Don’t pretend that this is your money serving others, please. That is NIMBY talk, a sentence like that. “Lazy parkers??” I suppose you believe in traffic jams over convenient rail service? That is the spirit of Robert Moses.
And to think that you want to dictate to people where they ought to live? I hope you never get elected President of the USA because you will be quite the tyrant. You wish Westchester and Putnam Counties to get more and more congested?
The Express Buses would serve the SMALLER intra-suburban commuting market. Suburban bussiness is SO decentralized anyway that rail transit dosen't even make sense
Express bus service costs hundreds of millions of dollars in startup costs too. And unless you spend hundreds of millions more for dedicated busways, there is no guarantee of bypassing the traffic. And people do not use rail transit for local and reverse-commuter service? Yes they certainly do. Not to mention, what about the leisure weekend service?
Yes, Hoboken is underutilized. Why spend $$ to route trains to GCT when Hoboken can take them for much less cost.
No. Not compared to trains running right into GCT. Are you pretending that Midtown Direct on NJTs Morristown Line didnt happen?
No, I am observing that Midtown direct was much more economical. MTD involved two ramps and two interlockings. This new Tappen Zee thing involves miles of new RoW, tunnels through a sheer clif and a bridge...as well as a bunch of new interlockings and ramps.
Sending the trains right into Midtown would automatically result in trains that are more full than they are now.
You know that the trains that if service is extended along the existing route or on new routes you'll attract more riders as well??
Then you are not into progress. Dont pretend that this is your money serving others, please. That is NIMBY talk, a sentence like that. Lazy parkers??
I do believe in progress. You seem to think that "progress" is making the ride of those with access to transit slightly better. I think progress is expanding the number of people and areas that have access to transit. I think that people who cannot stand a 4 block walk ARE LAZY. What's the deal? Is there some grand chasam between 8th and 4th Avenues?
I suppose you believe in traffic jams over convenient rail service? That is the spirit of Robert Moses.
No, I believe in traffic jams forcing people into inconvienent rail service thus prompting funding that will then lead to that service becomming conveinent over time. But I still say, you need the service there first.
And to think that you want to dictate to people where they ought to live? I hope you never get elected President of the USA because you will be quite the tyrant. You wish Westchester and Putnam Counties to get more and more congested?
Its called market differentiation. If you want a one seat ride you pay more for a house in Westchester or Putnam. If you want to save you settle for a two seat ride in Rockland. I think it is unfair to use state funds to give the people who paid for a two seat ride property a one seat ride. I also think that you need a range of housing values in a region. You wouldn't want to go into a store with only one brand of everything.
For one thing, that's more than 4 blocks. For another, that's over half a mile. Even if they resort to taking that nice, slow, crosstown bus, that's still pretty inconvenient.
For mor Info See the following sites from Steve Anderson
http://www.nycroads.com/crossings/tappan-zee/
http://www.nycroads.com/roads/thruway/
http://www.nycroads.com/roads/cross-westchester/
http://www.nycroads.com/crossings/oysterbay-rye/
http://www.nycroads.com/roads/NY-135/
As far as rail goes, I think it's only on the bridge, not along the whole expressway on LI. I think they should just do it along 287, over the tappan zee, along the cross westchester(still 287), then along that new bridge to Glen Cove. At Glen Cove, a wye to allow trains towards Mineola and Oyster Bay via the OB line. Then, at Oyster Bay, trains go into tunnel to remeet with the expressway, parallel it til it reaches the port jeff line. At that point, another wye to allow trains to go in both directions on the line.
I don't think running tracks along the expressway south of the Port Jeff line is smart. If they need trains to reach the south shore, have them run down the OB line to mineola, build a track that curves east and bingo. The only other way for trains to reach the south shore would be if they rebuilt that track that allowed trains to go from the Port Jeff line to the Main line at hicksville
In any event, I drew a quick map as to what I might do in the area.
It shows a tunnel under the river connecting to the west river line to Stony Point, and also connecting with the existing line to Port Jervis.
It looks to me as if the connector would need to be built underground to avoid NIMBYs which I presume thrive up there as well as in more populated places.
My plan shows about seven miles of new construction.
Given the circuititious route of the Jervis Lion, one presumes that hills and grades are an issue in that part of the world, so my connector between Orangeberg and Nanuet may well be a deep bore.
Such tunnels also suggest electrification.
Elias
The only other thing I'd say for rail is at Piermont, extend the tracks over/under the hudson and connect to the hudson line.
You should be able to leave your comments on the link itself, show where you stand out!
Regards,
Jimmy
Enjoy
LincolN weas full length pants
Chuck Greene
Til Next Time
I *WOULD* go to MOD.............. if it were the r12-15-17-33s IRT consist.
Sorry, no ear was left inside the museum car. But there were blood stains all over the place. LOL :-)
Just your brakestand and controller setup would get you taken out of service pronto...
When you try to go back, it CLOSES YOUR BROWSER and you have to reopen it and go back and reload SubTalk.
The browser trick works equally well with either Netscrape or IYee. It's still a pain.
... I remember. :)
We have a winner!!!!!
One of my good buddies grew up in Monrovia and as a railfan growing up chased the SP and spent a lot of time at Cumbres Pass.
He split from the left coast and has become a Baltimorian.
I have to hit back twice [in quick succession], or hit the drop-down arrow next to Back and go back to the SubTalk index.
Maybe admission to the racetrack should be free, and you pay to leave...extra if you want the best train vantage point.
:0)
I HOPE you mean the horses........ and not the TRAIN.
For example, I recently saw a train with a BNSF head locomotive, a Conrail Quality loco behind it, and cars that included TTX/Trailer Train flat cars, hopper cars and boxcars that included Railbox, plus the outmoded Chessie System (cat with paw extended), Santa Fe, and Southern Railway (Southern sserves the South)logos.
Click: THe L line
For that matter, do they have plans on scrapping the voice of the 2? because she is just horrible...
That is a really clear recording, what'd you use?(I just learned that my cellphone can't pick up crap for auto-voices).
MOD trip 12/27/03
I hope to see you in school car.
Check out the rest of the Arnine trip
til next time
Btw, thanks for the compliment.
This Is What I Live For...
til next time
Oh - almost forgot - here is one of my redbird shots from last week...
Til Next Time
Attended entire MOD trip (or most of it):
LincolN
K.C. Roberts
Chris R27/30
Christopher Rivera
WESTCODE44
Thru Express
Koi-Public Transit is My Lifeline
John "Sparky GG" S.
Arrow III MU
Silverfox
MDT Route 29/VC Madman
Operational Engineer II
Howard Fein
Mark W.
Mark Feinman
R36 #9379
R33 #8840
Boriquia
Bombardier
SciGuy 6586
Greg From Pittsburg
Loud Fast & Aging Rapidly
Fantrip Special
Jehuty
Late as Usual: BMTman
Chasers (just catching the MOD train but not able to ride it.):
Broadway Junction (I saw you at Queens Plaza, inbound local side)
Mr. Foamer (at 34th Street/6th Ave)
Mxyzptlk31: damn late (A)(S)(S) train!
Mxyzptlk31: the A was late,
Mxyzptlk31: so an S was waiting for it at Broad Channel's siding,
Mxyzptlk31: another S was at Broad Channel northbound waiting to get onto the siding,
Mxyzptlk31: a 4-car R-44 (A) train(!) was sitting behind taht waiting to enter Broad Channel
Mxyzptlk31: and a regular A train from Far Rock was sitting behind THAT!
Would you believe it?
Here is a teaser photo from the album:
One Federal Seat of Government (NOT the Capital, just where it is):
Den Haag, where the lawmaking body meets.
This split between the Capital and the seat of government is possibly unique to the Netherlands, but where there is a King and/or Queen, it is certainly reasonable.
I should know. I'm an operator.
Michael
Washington, DC
Name: Brian
Age: 15
DOB: October 22
Hobbies: Collect transit related items and collect wrestling related items
What I like to do is cook, go out to do some railfanning, and watch DVD's.
All I'm asking to everybody is just welcome me here and I'll gain your respect.
That's one of my top 5 favorite stations too, by the way.
Pathetic.....it's HOLLA
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
No matter what train is closest to your house.
Elias
Since you've been here for a while, you'll probably recognize me as the humanist with news and views from elsewhere in the world(read as country for you isolationists).
If you're into buses, that's what most of my pics and webstuff will most likely be about(bustalk), as we have more of those than trains 'round here.
LOL. Just kidding. Welcome to SubTalk, brah.
But I have something he doesn't have: a 1979 NYC Subway map!!! =p
Let me know how I may be of service to you. Perhaps you can get academic credit (social studies ?) for your postings on SubTalk.
Chuck
I wish you the best in school and hopefully you reach your goals in life.
As for the "Ultimate Ride" you saw this week, I was the fearless leader with the paper on the route in the beginning.
Regards,
Jimmy 8)
484 at Rockaway Park station
484 decked out for the holidays
G train in the sunset
Dog jumping around Rockaway Beach
Side of 100 (I think)
Sun on tracks and water
Inside of 1575
Obey the Law sign in 100
F train in the sunset
Sun on water
What are you talking about? Until this "Festive MOD Trip," I've been on EVERY MOD TRIP THIS YEAR that wasn't on the sabbath or on a Jewish holiday. I certainly would have loved to cough up $40 for this trip, had I been able to attend. I pay my $40 cheerfully.
Just don't take pics of where the bows and wreaths are.
What? The wreaths and bows are on the FRONT of the train. The FRONT is the most photogenic part of the train. Like I said in another post, I could have brought my wreath filter had these trips been announced in the flyer as having wreaths and bows.
Because it's the right thing to do.
In Germany they came first for the Communists and I didn't speak up
because I wasn't a Communist. Then they came for the Jews and I didn't
speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for
the Catholics and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they
came for me--and by that time no one was left to speak up.
--Martin Niemller 1892-1984.
Read the rest of the thread and see why MANY of us think it was NOT a "nice touch."
And since you are basically starting this argument all over again, I think the following photo is appropriate:
Well I figured if they were there you would have a hissy fit and not go. I am so glad it worked.
And don't tell me it is a bullshit excuse. I do NOT appreciate Christmas being forced into every facet of our lives. I don't celebrate it, and neither do many others on the trip. Furthermore, Arnines have nothing to do with Christmas. The "festive" stuff was totally uncalled for and an eyesore.
I also feel those 100th Anniversary boards on the Arnine last time were an eyesore, but I assumed they were put there by the museum, and not the MOD people, and there was nothing we could do about that.
www.esmod.ab.ca/easterseals/history/history.cfm
...runs for cover as to not start a conversation about this
Freedom of religion is also freedom from religion.
What is the big deal ?
i started reading this forum to learn about trains. so please, can we talk about them or at least pay attention to the subject of the pictures, the *actual* subject (the train, not the "oppressive holiday spirit forced upon us by the government!"), and not the god-damned bows? when i first started reading here, i was learning about something besides how bitchy people can be.
Yes, let everyone be, but no the government? What's the difference between bows on a government-owned train and a cross in a government-owned courthouse?
It's not that serious.
I mean, it's not even a public train! Do you also think it's wrong for people who work in a government office to bring Christmas decorations to put on their desks?
Both are equally stupid looking on a subway train.
Appropriate items to be displayed: a sign, banner, or drum (I think that's what they're called). And the appropriate time for the display would only be on a "first run" or a "last run" type trip. Additionally, white flags, such as are mounted on steam and diesel locomotives to denote an extra special event, may be appropriate on revenue subway cars used for a non-revenue excursion.
Would you all agree or disagree with that?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm sure some Christians would be just as offended if the Menorah was in the same location on the front of the train. Symbols should be neutral in religious nature.
But it's not like they put a cross on the front. That would have been WAY over the edge, and I would have been offended at that myself.
Menorah = religious
Cross = religious
Crucifix = religious
Star of David = religious
Banner of Mary holding Jesus = religious
Bow = piece of material made out of velvet, not a religious symbol in any religion, so not religious in nature like the others mentioned above.
Yet they're directly associated with a religion, so they have no business being displayed on public property in the U.S.
The same goes for bows and wreaths, which are used in the celebration of a religious holiday, Christmas. Hang them on your house, your store, your car, your shirt, but please keep them off of public property.
Candy Canes from Santa for kids = no complaints when they switch in the yard in the middle of the night
Was the MOD trip in question billed as the "MOD Christmas Express? No, it wasn't.
Ironic that the majority in religion (Christianity) is opposed to the majority in patriotism (going to war with Iraq and winning too.)
Yes there was. There were wreaths and bows where there should have just been green paint.
There are just some people in this world that want perfection in every nook and cranny.
No, I just want things to be normal. Did Arnines ever run in service with wreaths and bows? I DON'T THINK SO!
Chances are they have never seen anything like it before in our subway system.
Who are "they?" And what have "they" never seen, the festive stuff on the front or Arnines running?
Chances are they have never seen the trains I have operated around these glorious holidays.
What are you talking about? Please stay on topic.
But then they were only babes in arms around that time.
A babe in the arm is better than two in the bush, I guess.
I hope they continue with holiday decorations on the front/rear on trips to come.
I hope they DON'T. Charter your own dam train full of just Christians and you can put whatever festive junk you want on the front of the train. And I'm SURE there were even christians amongst you on the trip who didn't like the wreaths and bows too!
It certainly breaks up the monotony on these trips.
The trips ARE NOT MONOTONOUS!!!!!!!!!!!! They do not ned to do anything to break up this imaginary monotony. The MOD trips are amazingly fun just the way they are, and I love them.
It will certainly make a good holiday card for next Christmas.
Oh, please. Don't start with the universal "holiday" crap. A picture of the wreaths would make a good CHRISTMAS CARD for Christmas, not a good Holiday Card. Chanukah cards they I use do not contain ANY images of christmas, and any generic "Holiday" cards that I give have no mention of the current holidays. Stop thinking that everyone in this world celebrates and enjoys seeing things related to YOUR holiday.
I don't know what the hell you are talking about. Please stick to the topic of the thread.
If you consider festive decorations to be "junk", you must have a very dull and boring life, Mr Scrooge!
You seem to be new here so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you don't know this: I'M NOT CHRISTIAN!!!!!!!!!!!! AND AS SUCH I COULD GIVE TWO SH!TS ABOUT "FESTIVE DECORATIONS"!!!!!! Understand? They were foreign objects that have no place or use on the front of a subway car on a subway train that is specifically being run, in part, for people who take photos of subways.
he better not try anything funny
If you don't like the subject, don't take any pictures!
Who are you, Captain Obvious?
Just remember the trip is being run to raise money for the MARCH OF DIMES.
And the trip caters to railfans who take photos.
Perhaps you should wait until the day of the trip before buying a ticket, this way you can see whether or not the front of the train is to your liking.
That was the plan, Stan.
Doing so will save everyone at subtalk from reading such negative comments.
Oh, am I hurting your poor virgin ears?
It doesn't matter if every single person celebrated Christmas, it would still be wrong. The constitution is supposed to protect the minority from the Tyranny of the Majority, among other things.
whether you observe Christmas relgiously [sic] or secularly .
Whichever way Christmas is celebrated, it's a religious holiday. Unless the United States wins some war on December 25, it will not be a national, secular holiday.
It's not the majjority's [sic] fault that you and a select few others don't observe that season .
It's not the First Amendment's fault that you and a select few people choose to ignore it, but it is still in force, and will be even with a majority not liking it.
Who owns the train and the tracks on which they run?
What is so tyranical [sic] about a bow ?
It is a public display of religion and a violation of the Establishment Clause.
Do you even know what a festival is?
As I walk through the valley of the shadow of death
I take a look at my life
And realize there's nothing left
'Cause I've been blasting and laughing so long
That even my momma thinks that my mind has gone
But I ain't never crossed a man that didn't deserve it
Me be treated like a punk you know that's unheard of
You betta watch how ya talking
And where ya walking
Or you and your homies might be lined in chalk
I really hate to trip but I gotta loc
As they croak, I see myself in the pistol smoke
Fool, I'm the kinda g that little homie's wanna be like
On my knees in the night
Saying prayers in the street light
Coolio - Gangsta's Paradise
I am a man who walks alone
And when Im walking a dark road
At night or strolling through the park
When the light begins to change
I sometimes feel a little strange
A little anxious when its dark
Fear of the dark, fear of the dark
I have a constant fear that someones always near
Fear of the dark, fear of the dark
I have a phobia that someones allways there
Have you run your fingers down the wall
And have you felt your neck skin crawl
When youre searching for the light?
Sometimes when youre scared to take a look
At the corner of the room
Youve sensed that somethings watching you
Have you ever been alone at night
Thought you heard footsteps behind
And turned around and no ones there?
And as you quicken up your pace
You find it hard to look again
Because youre sure theres someone there
Watching horror films the night before
Debating wiches and folklore
The unkown troubles on your mind
Maybe your mind is playing tricks
You sense and suddenly eyes fix
On dancing shadows from behind
Fear of the dark, fear of the dark
I have a constant fear that someones always near
Fear of the dark, fear of the dark
I have a phobia that someones allways there
When Im walking a dark road
I am a man who walkes alone
--"Fear of the Dark" --Iron Maiden
Way to bring it back on topic! :-)
That SubTalkers are open minded and do not take kindly to people trying to shove their beliefs down their throats? Yeah, that's pretty bad.
Meatloaf - Paradise by the Dashboard Light
Your attitude proves you are not a Jew. YAWVEH LOVES YOU regardless of your background.
Your attitude proves you are not a Muslim. ALLAH LOVES YOU regardless of your background.
The intent of this post is not to insult Jews or Muslims, but rather to insult bible thumpers.
If you "shared the love" like you claim then you wouldn't force your religion on other people by supporting the Christmas-related symbols on the front of the MOD train.
Yes you did.
You said: "JESUS LOVES YOU regardless of your background." That conveys that you're a Christian a lot better than you just saying it. I don't see many Hindus going around saying that.
And you can argue all you want whether it's a quote or not, but non-Christians do not go around saying "JESUS LOVES YOU."
Tolerance doesn't involve supporting one religion, and then giving equal time to all religions, it involves removing all government support of it, which means symbols placed on publicly owned vehicles.
The establishment clause of the First Amendment clearly prohibits an establishment of religion. And it's clear this means any kind of national support for religion. Earlier drafts of that amendment have different texts, such as "The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief, nor shall any national religion be established..." and "Congress shall make no law establishing any particular denomination in preference to another...." So it's clear that having a menorah side-by-side with a Christmas tree is NOT acceptable, the rewrite of the First Amendment clearly shows that "non-preferentialism" is not acceptable.
These other beliefs are not simply Christianity with different symbols.
Asking that religious holidays not be celebrated by "decorating" public property is hardly intolerant. Insisting that all others share in your religious celebrations is.
Whatever else Christmas has become, it is a religious holiday at its core, celebrated by members of a particular religion. Tossing a Jewish object into a Christian celebration makes it no less of a Christian celebration.
I recognize that I'm going against the flow here, but so-called "holiday" decorations have no business being placed on public property, anywhere, for any reason (and certainly not at public expense). That goes for all religions -- there's a Star of David hanging over a street near me, and I object to it on both political and religious grounds (political because it's a religious decoration on public property; religious because somebody, possibly a fellow Jew, is under the mistaken belief Chanukah is just Christmas with different decorations, when in fact nothing could be further from the truth).
If private businesses wish to decorate their own property with Christmas displays, then by all means they should.
This phrase demonstrates perfectly why you still seem to be confusing "secular" Christmas with "religious" Christmas . Time and time again people have tried to show you that the Christmas you are talking about and "see" the most is NOT the "real" Christmas . Just like you are claiming to say that the "Chanukah" with the Star of David hanging over the street is NOT the "real" Chanukah , but some diversion from it , the Christmas "on display" is NOT the real Christmas , but a diversion from it . The only difference is that the diversion of real Christmas is MUCH bigger than the Chanukah's diversion of real Chanukah .
The Christmas of "lights over Main St", or wreaths on the lamp posts is NOT religious Chsistmas, but "secular" or "business" Christmas , and bears no resemblance to the religious holiday at all . Once again , all those decorations and "fuss" are put there by business , whether it be private , a Chamber of Commerce of the area , a busines improvement district , or whatever . It is so easy for you to see that the Chanukah lights over the road does not reflect "real" Chanukah , but you still can't see that all the fluff of Christmas you see is NOT really true Christmas .
If instead of Christmas , the majority of this country celebrated Chanukah (or the diversion there-of) you would be seeing these invented Chanukah decorations all over the place instead of the Christmas ones - blue bows instead of red , etc . That would not mean it's Chanukah or "real" Chanukah , but the "secular" one that was invented by business , just like what happened to Christmas .
They are decorations of CHRISTMAS, period. Christmas is a religious holiday.
if instead of Christmas , Chanukah was observed by the majority of the country , the same decorating frenzy would have occurred if tied to the economy like Christmas is.
And it would still be wrong.
March of Dimes isn't a Christian organization.
What if I said to you: "JESUS HATES YOU"
How do you like that? If you are offended, then now you know why we were offended by what you wrote.
You press You, meaning me. That is wrong.
You disagree? Fine, that's your business. But don't you dare force your religious beliefs on those who don't share them!
Maybe so, but he doesn't care about that, because his faith believes that Jesus was just a radical Jewish boy. I don't have a problem with that because he does believe in Jesus's dad.
So you have a problem with people who don't?
There are those who would stone non-beliviers, I won't, but it's also been my observation that they change their mind on their death beds, just in case I guess.
You are a real piece of shit.
Hmmm, I wonder if they've ever considered simply changing their wine selection.
Excuse me but if someone is Jewish or any other religion for that matter, they are entitled to their opinion about the wreath. As long as no one goes to the extereme and rips it off the train, then that's why Subtalk is here for; to voice their opinions about something that a certain religious group believes in.
If you polled most people, they would either be in favor of school prayer or indifferent to it.
I was saying that what the majority says is completely irrelevant here and used an example to prove my point. If you don't understand, then don't respond except to ask for clarification.
People care.
What is religious about a bow ?
It is a decoration used for Christmas. A RELIGIOUS holiday.
It's not like they slapped a Nativity Scene on the front of the train.
What is religious about a nativity scene? It's just some guy being born. What's so religious about a cross? It's just the Romans' preferred method of execution.
TAKE DOWN THE WTC CROSS!
My view on the issue...
LEAVE IT UP. A lot of people died that day. If it provides any sort of comfort to the families of the dead, why take it down? If you don't like it, ignore it and go on your merry way.
Should we also put up symbols of other religions to comfort everyone else, or do only the Christians get comfort?
Do you know how many thousands of right angles there were in the World Trade Center?
That there was a cross is not only insignificant, it's expected. Unless they intend to execute Osama Bin Laden there by crucifixion, then the cross belongs ELSEWHERE.
It doesn't matter if it comforts billions or trillions of people. It is public property in the United States.
Since not just Christians died from the 9/11 attack, then the cross does not belong there. If we have the cross, why not the Star of David, the Isalamic Cross, and other religious symbols up alongside?
Have a Happy 2004 so far.
There are also many ways for people to find peace for whom the cross means something without the WTC cross. Keeping the cross there is favoring one religion over another. The right thing to do would have been to donate the cross to a private religious organization and have it displayed off site. Not a single person would have complained.
When a Jewish gravestone includes a Star of David, it's typically small, as a decoration. Here are some photos of Jewish cemeteries (one of which is very much on-topic). The Star of David alone never symbolizes the dead.
The cross, standing alone on a public site, makes a universal statement that is not universally held by the survivors and families.
Frankly, death is a sore point between Jews and Christians, stretching back many centuries. Some sensitivity is in order.
Allow the families to mourn their lost relatives however they deem appropriate, in their own houses of worship, their own cemeteries, their own homes.
If the cross means something to Christians, then it means the same thing to non-Christians -- only the non-Christians likely don't care for whatever that meaning may be.
No, since it's obvious to everyone that it's a Christian cross and not a lower-case t for Time to mourn.
Those same Jews might not feel comfortable visiting the WTC site, specifically because of the cross, even though some of them lost family and friends there.
In general, life takes precedence over Jewish law -- that is, if offered a choice between dying and violating a law, one is supposed to violate the law. There are three exceptions, and idolatry is one of them. (The other two are various forbidden sexual acts and murder of another human being.) It should come as no surprise that many customs have developed to keep Jews as far as possible from idolatrous practice. This is serious stuff.
They do sit very innocently in many pre-1930's art and decoration though.
However, if NYCT were to decide that all decorative tiling were to be removed except the swastikas, I'm sure many here would be offended.
Same story here. The WTC cross was allowed to remain specifically because it was a religious symbol. If it had been, say, a square, it would have been removed without mention.
Then they came to take away the squares, and I didn't say anything, because I'm not a square.
Then they came to take away me, and there was no one left to say anything.
No, not LOL.
I like the G train photo the best...
Incognito
I'm from Ridgewood, and "grew up" on the J, L, M and MJ (Myrtle Avenue el to downtown Brooklyn) lines, and would like to discuss Ridgewood with you, if you like. Please e-mail me privately. Do you have the link to the Times Newsweekly (former Ridgewood Times) ?
http://timesnewsweekly.com
I, too, grew up near Myrtle/Wyckoff, at the Bushwick/Ridgewood, Brooklyn-Queens border.
My dad's sister and parents used to live at 89-03 87th Street, and at
86-03 85th Street, in Woodhaven.
Holiday Model Trains at the CITICORP Building
During the Christmas holiday season New York has a special holiday model train display
at the Citicorp Building (E.53rd Street and Lexington Avenue).
From Thanksgiving through the first few days into the new year it is set up in the building's lower atrium.
The layout represented times and places of New York State's history. Also, each section of the layout
is modeled for one of the four seasons.
Three scales of trains (O, S and HO) run through the whole layout. Plus there are over a dozen trains
that run on individual sections.
The entrance to the Citiorp Building atrium can be reached directly from the Lexington Avenue & 50th Street
subway station that serves the E, F and 6 lines.
At the time the train swung out of the curve, I was doing about 40 MPH in light traffic in the middle lane. The train kept up pretty easily, so I called for another 10 MPH from the Malibu's V-6 engine room. At 50 MPH I began to pull away from the train but it suddenly picked up speed and pulled alongside me. The faithful Malibu immediately delivered another 10 MPH, bringing my speed to 60 (the most I would dare go on the unpredictable, potholed Van Wyck), again bringing me alongside the train, but it continued to accelerate away from me. At this point, we were approaching the Belt Parkway exit, where traffic patterns often become hairy, and the AT still had a good 2-3 car length lead. Since I have a 2-year old at home and another on the way in the spring, I decided against risking my life and conceded the win to AT.
Final score: AirTrain 1, Malibu V-6 0.
I've done faster.
Unfortunately you risk death and injury to do it...
Robert
LOL - someone had too much eggnog, I think.
Chuck Greene
When the on-board sensor notices a grid-lock situation with a traffic back up, the train automatically honks it's horn every quarter mile, thereby making it noticed.
Not only will that peeve a lot of people off, it's also a great marketing tool to get them on the train since they look like fools. :)
1] on a day that is sleeting, and the black ice is just waiting to shock the shit out of you as you are sliding sideways into a SUV
or
2]on a humid, hot summer day when that shitty little popgun called an engine overheats, and you ass is stuck in the middle lane with the front cover up and you are looking like a complete ass standing in front of your car, trying to avoid getting yourself killed, being honked at by all of the other turds on the highway.
So, even if you can coast, you still better pray for spacr to get across, a rare thing at most times on the Van Wyck.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
My cousin once had a '68 Impala. Wish I had bought it off him.
Again, please be at East Market East by 9:45 with your day passes in hand. We really need an early start on this one. Also, does anyone know how to get from the Rt 36 Station to the R1 station in Eastwick?
Thanks, maybe i'll mail you a day-pass from a florida city of your choice(which won't really get you anywhere anyway). :)
have fun
Here is a better site to find out stuff like this:
www.railroad.net/forums/topics.asp?ForumID=19
Latest word is that it was a dispute over yard space (or lack thereof) within Sparta NJ, the intended terminus of passenger service. (NJT has apparently found an alternate yard location in Hardyston.)
In addition, NYSW passenger service is/was intended to have been broken up into two segments, one as a Hoboken-Paterson run via Hackensack (originally looked at as “light rail” but that is now unfeasible due to the time-sharing requirements imposed by the FRA since 1999, so now NJT is considering a DMU operation) and the other as the Hoboken-Sparta run via NJ Transit Main Line to Paterson and via NYSW from Hawthorne westwards (the purpose thereof being to give the westward commuters a connection to Secaucus Junction). IMHO, though, it would be more efficient to bypass Secaucus and have trains run to/from Sparta via Hackensack…
http://www.digitalalley.net/LIRR2.gif
There are no damages involved in this, so there would be no restitution, but yes he does have basic copyright protection.
Will be removed pending any possible way of getting permission to repost it.
You mean there's precedent for this?!?
Anyway, I'm pretty sure the guy who drew the maps way back when I first visited nycsubway.org had some German looking surname. I see no credit to him anywhere, so unless this is a deed poll case, Calcagno's a prize hypocrite.
I don't come to this board as much as I'd like to.
Thanks for jumping into conclusion!
Michael
To answer your question...MS Paint and nothing more! (It's not like it's a secret!)
Michael
Who could blame you? We sure are a pesky little group for you to have to even minimally deal with. If I was in your position I'd probably one day just pull the freekin' plug. Bunch a train geek nerds we surely are. Us mother blankers out here gotta remember: this is a hobby for you, not a vocation.
Talk about a mixed metaphor.
I suspect he is the same guy as Calcagno. Either a deed poll or a nom-de-plume -clavier.
12/17/2001 about.html
"Michael Adler: From Lakewood, Colorado. Michael is a subway nut who was born and raised in Jackson Heights, Queens. He is a U.S. Postal Service Letter Carrier, and his hobby includes drawing train maps and reading anything and everything about the New York City Subway System! He contributed most of the maps in the Historical Maps section. He hand-draws most of them!"
03/06/2002 contrib.html
"Michael Calcagno: Michael is a subway nut who was born and raised in Jackson Heights, Queens and now lives near Denver, Colorado. He is a U.S. Postal Service Letter Carrier, and his hobby ncludes drawing train maps and reading anything and everything about the New York City Subway System! He contributed most of the route maps and historical maps on the site. He hand-draws most of them!"
Nothing was mentioned about this at the time, either on SubTalk or any other part of nycsubway.org. For some months afterwards, his historical maps still said Adler on them, even though in ?February? the name on the main historical maps page had been changed.
It has nothing to do with bully... I'm pretyy flixble with people requesting to re-do any of my maps... (you can see some of my maps that were updated by someone, else) the difference between you (Kyle) and others is that they asked me for permission....If you asked me for permission *BEFORE* you redo any maps... this wouldn't happen!
I'm UNreasonable when people DON'T ask for permission! there's big difference!
About a decade ago the law changed; Copyrighted works no longer need to be registered; all copy rights are automatically assigned to the creator. You may not even need to tag the work anymore.
Thank you, I was unaware of that vaguarity. However, you appear to be correct.
http://www.benedict.com/info/registration/why.asp
http://www.keytlaw.com/Copyrights/benefits.htm
The alteration of such map and reposting it in a different site without Dave Pirman's permission would violate the copyright that is protected by www.nycsubway.org
Therefore anything that is in Dave's (not me, the webmaster) domain, you would have to deal with him and not Michael Calacgno. Michael is a contributor to this site and whatever he send to Dave Pirmann and is posted as such is protected by Copyright and may not be altered without his permission.
If Kyle has issues with the LIRR map, he should've sent an email to Dave or you instead of illegally copying maps.
Both the CLRV and SLRV were transitional vehicles which bridged the gap between the declining and expanding years of rail transit in the Western Hemisphere.
The cars he cited were Boston's 01700s, which ARE in fact UTDC, it's the 01800 series that were built by Bombardier, the 01500-01600 series built by Pullman-Standard...check http://members.aol.com/netransit to confirm this...
Incognito
David
Green: 24-hour station agent
Red: part time station agent, some have MetroCard Vending Machines only, others are exits only
Green apparently now means full-time access, with a booth and/or with MVM's. Red means anything else. (Exit-only should in theory have no globe at all, but I think there are many with red globes.)
Peace,
ANDEE
Full green: 24 hour agent and entrance
Half green, half white: Part-time agent, full time entrance
Half red, half white: No agent, but part or full time entrance via iron maiden style turnstile
Full red: Exit only all times
This system provides considerably more information about what you can expect before you get close enough to read the detailed sign, but the full green in particular seems to have been removed from use--at the 116th St/Columbia station on the 1/9, the recent renovations have left half green-half white globes at the entrances above the 24hr booth. Of course, personally I would prefer if many more entrances and exits were just open 24 hours anyway (with iron maiden turnstiles as necessary), since some exit closings can be terribly annoying--my favorite is the 2nd av exit of the 2nd av station on the F, which closes at a very early 9 PM, especially for its neighborhood.
The sign boxes were donors from other cars. Seashore's 175 body
was a parts donor, but not of side signs. 17 hand straps &
storm doors and other parts, YES. >>GG<<
:>) ~ Sparky
Next stop: light rail Newest form of mass transit debuts April 3
I get the feeling this is going to be an awesome and beautiful line, I should find a way to fit this into my 2 year sight-seeing plan.
I hope this thing really does spur development. The problem is this:
"The police force reported 112 arrests, 142 summonses and no major crimes at the Trenton Train Station between Jan. 11 and Nov. 30, the most recent statistics available. "
Regular people don't voluntarily ride with hoodlums and criminals. They get chased away back into their cars or in other neighbhorhoods. If they can keep the image up, and crime down, it'll have a better chance.
That reminds me of a few years ago when some people in philly wanted to sue the city and CSX for not putting up a giant fence between the tracks and their neighborhood. Apprently they had no self-control and hung around the tracks and got hit by the trains...blamed it on CSX.
That is a non-problem. You are over-reading it. Most of that is small time nonsense like graffitti writing - obnoxious, but not a deterrent to riders. "no major crimes" is the key phrase, which you overlooked.
I have used the NEC Trenton station several times, and never had a problem.
Of course, I'm always glad when then police grab some jerk with a quality-of-life issue.
But 112 arrests is for another reason. I remember I was on an R3 going home once, and the train was held up for 30 minutes when it crossed into philly proper. The cops came in and nabbed this guy 5 rows in front who I see almost everyday. Of course the Temple chicks in front of me semi-freaked("what just happened?!?"). If something like that happened everyday during rush hour, there'd be no ridership left. For the rest of us so sadly desensitized to this matter, we're unfazed, but mad at being held-up.
Is part of those arrests drug pushers? I don't know if they consider that a major crime or not. Regular people and business class people aren't going to stand on the same platform as these dudes.
And graffitti writing. Probably not a deterrent, but not good in a marketing image(do "choice" riders prefer filth and dirt?)
There are still thousands who perfer the "safety" of their one person vehicle because of freaks and weridos and bad activity. I get the feeling that's the deterrent and not "convienance" of the automobile.
There is a download for BVE of this train model for a German route online somewhere. It's interesting if it really works like that.
If the line never get's built, or abandoned, I dont' consider it a waste, I would think another agency could pick them up for cheap for a starter line.
63% in poll support tax increase for transit expansion
I linked this/liked this article because it has some interesting break-downs on what demographics support it. Educated vs. non educated, race, etc....
Then they gotta ruin the article by putting a quote from some bitter #### as the last line of the article. Why do they always do this? Is there a point? What if these stories were about building a park, would there be a quote at the end saying, "Don't worry, it will take no effort to erode support and build a landfill on this area instead."
Can you provide a link to an image of the M7?
Incognito
Transportation Photographer
Clickable:
See here for all LIRR stations
All I remember from the reconstruction is that it kept me up every freakin' night.
The nice thing about Islip is the absence of advertisements.
I really wish they kept the lows and had specially designed cars that could access low and high level platforms at platform level. I actually designed a car that has that, I may submit it to Kawasaki Rail Car or Bombardier. First I wanna hear you approval first(that'll be a new thread)
I think the main line needs bi-levels more than anything b/c of the fact it is so crowded. Like I said, a few super expresses that run all the way out to Greenport. Either:
1. NYP-Jamaica-Mineola-Hicksville-Farmingdale-KO-Riverhead-Greenport
2. NYP-Jamaica-Mineola-Hicksville-Farmingdale-Brentwood-KO-Riverhead-Greenport
3. NYP-Jamaica-Mineola-Hicksville-Farmingdale-KO-local to Greenport
4. NYP-Jamaica-Mineola-Hicksville-Farmingdale-Brentwood-KO-local to Greenport
Which do you think is the best?
3:15 at Mineola
5:18 at Mineola(stops in Hicksville at 5:27)
both terminate in Patchogue
Than one of these....Believe me, it took a long time for me to snap the shutter again while these started rolling on the rails....
In all seriousness, the old trainsets were a total wreck, but why they had to go for the DM30's is beyond me. Even the ugly Genesis units that MN has would have been better.
And I rode many miles behind those 2000's and 2400's and even got a few cab rides in them!!
Got plenty of cab rides as our next-door neighbor was an engineer, and always invited me to go with him on Saturdays....got a few cab rides in the C-Liners, and just abotu every C-420 and RS-3 as well.
The first one (with the GP38) was taken at Bellport in 1994, the second one with the DM30 was taken at Medford this past July.
See here for photos of every LIRR station
...and yes, I forgot to scan Westbury, Westbury is forthcoming.....
See here for photos of every LIRR station
...and yes, I forgot to scan Westbury, Westbury is forthcoming.....
Long Beach could probably use them, along with the main line to KO. Hell, they should just be running bi-levels from Greenport, local to KO, then Brentwood, Farmingdale, Hicksville, Mineola, Jamaica, NYP.
The GP38's and F's are not complete strangers to the Port Washington Branch...or the Long Beach Branch....or even the West Hempstead Branch!
Click away at the thumbnails:
Shea Stadium
Auburndale
Auburndale
Island Park
Island Park
Hempstead Gardens
As for Long Beach, fan trips have run there with GP38-2's and FA's as Chris' pictures show.
Are the DE/DM's heavier than the RS-1's, b/c I've heard that the M7's are pretty close to the DE/DM weight.
Note that with respect to the Green Line article, I believe there is an inacuracy. According to what I have heard from an MBTA employee who is in a position to know, the Green Line service will be bused from Haymarket to Lechmere for only three months - March to June. After that, Green Line service will be extended to the new platforms at North Station (under), but busing will continue to Science Park and Lechmere for an additional nine months. This is an important distinction, especially for those of us that use North Station on the commuter rail, and transfer to the Green Line.
However, what I don't understand is why the connection to the new Green Line (under) station can't be implemented faster. Over the past month, crossovers have been installed on the new trackage just south of the new Green Line (under) station, which is yet to be connected to the main line north of Haymarket. It appears as though the cutover could be done in a weekend (much like the interim routing was done a few years ago when the North Station/Canal tracks were cut out and replaced by the temporary ramp now in use).
Green Line article.
Silver Line article.
It's the Secret Service's job to be paranoid about everything, but part of the attraction of the Fleet Center is its access to transit, so hopefully common sense will prevail.
The article missed on two other points: 1) the elevated Green Line station was not ADA compliant, whereas the new station will be...2) The Red Line will still have an elevated station at Charles-MGH, which will be the last vestige left after this project is done.
If I recall correctly, Massachusetts General Hospital agreed to put up nearly $4 million to help renovate Charles-MGH and add ADA elevators. What is the status of that?
Not of the 12-9, I hope...
CG
I sometimes change the commute I use to get home just for the sake of going along a different line.
I don't know why we went local back towards Manhattan. We were even trailing a J -- that is, until we were held behind Myrtle to wait a few minutes for an M to leave (and, no, we didn't take advantage of the vacated middle track there, either).
Did this virtual shuttle run in passenger service while it was there or was it just non-revenue?
For those who are looking at this and scratching their heads, the last D-type trip I attended, I think a year or two back, when we hit the Franklin Avenue Shuttle, we actually DID two round-trips IN REVENUE SERVICE, that's why I ask...
Incognito
--Mark
BTW, Chambers to Euclid doesn't require any reverse moves...the C stops at both.
It was great though to get the "whistles" both Southbound and Northbound at Woodhaven!
Thanks to everyone who made this weekend a stellar and unforgettable trip!
Regards,
Mark Valera
1: go back to PARTIAL Use of tokens; give passengers the option of choosing tokens or Metrocards/
Disagree. I don't see a reason for them. With MetroCard the fare is cheaper than $2.00 ($1.67 or less). With tokens, the fare would be $2.00. There is no reason that anyone should be paying $2.00. You buy a $10 MetroCard, and you get 6 rides. And you have quite a while to use those 6 rides. And even after the MetroCard expires, you still can get a refund for a period of time...so there's plenty time to use it.
2: Start increasing headways on BMT and IND lines, both rush and off-peak hours/
Agree. I would add the IRT to that also, especially the West Side. But some lines need this increase more than others.
3: STRICTLY ENFORCE a NO FOOD OR BEVERAGE RULE (watch how quickly the tracks get clean)/
Neutral. I agree with food, but I don't know about drinks. There's nothing like a bottle of soda/water when you are thirsty. Maybe more trash cans are a start to decreasing litter.
4: Re-construct the South Ferry terminal from a loop to a stub-end terminal/
Disagree. A stub terminal will slow the West Side local down, as TPH will be decreased because the train was to slow down so much pulling into the station. Loops are very efficient. I would recoment either status quo, or extending the current platform to 10 cars.
5:Restore the BMT station at Chambers St with repoduction historic fixures and have certain routes terminate there, making Chambers both a through station as well as a terminal/
Agreed. Although I hate the future mid-day M terminating there, as well as the weekend J. Lets restore the station, but not use it as a terminal ---- ever. Use Broad St instead.
6: Upgrade express service on the #7/
Neutral. I guess I don't use the express too often, but does it need upgrading?
7: Build replicas of IRT kiosks at certain stations to protect passengers from the elements, as well as add a historic air to neighborhood streets/
AGreed. It would do very nice at many of the old COntract One stations, as well as others.
8: Re-model IRT's Bowling Green station with tilework replicating the original/
Agreed. The old ones may still be behind the wall on the track wall side. The wall platform side would have to be completely replicated because they were never there to begin with. It probably wouldn't be on my "immediate attention" station renovation list, but I agree eventually, when other stations are refurbished, I could see a renovation there. Let's restore the 4th Ave line in Brooklyn, and more dilapitated stations first.
9:Remove timers where possible, to put the SPEED back into expresses/
It might eventually be possible when CBTC is put in slowly on many lines in the future.
10: Teach MTA employees to treat customers with common courtesy instead of the usual "attitude".
Agreed. While many are helpful, a few rotten apples posion the group. Let's give them the Disney-attitude: Eternal smiles and almost sickening customer service attitude.
To add:
Let's also build the 2nd Ave subway sometime before I need a wheelchair, and someone to take me out of the home to ride the new line.
Disagree: I'm all for the no food policy, but being a person who tends to get a dry throat easily, I strongly disagree.
4: Re-construct the South Ferry terminal from a loop to a stub-end terminal
Disagree: The station is good the way it is. Just extend the platform by 3-4 car lengths and thats it.
5:Restore the BMT station at Chambers St with repoduction historic fixures and have certain routes terminate there, making Chambers both a through station as well as a terminal
Stongly agree. That station is fugly.
6: Upgrade express service on the #7
Somewhat disagree: They could make it easier to tell which train is going local, and which train is going express, but other than that, 7 express service is good the way it is.
8: Re-model IRT's Bowling Green station with tilework replicating the original
Disagree: I like the station the way it is.
10: Teach MTA employees to treat customers with common courtesy instead of the usual "attitude".
Neutral: Only if you teach some New Yorkers not to ask obvious questions.
Example below
A D train is at 59th street on the express tracks, this is what I hear:
Woman: "Is this train running express?"
Conductor: "yes"
Woman: "ok"
Me: "Local trains stop over there" *points to local track*
Woman: "I know" *Makes a weird face at me, as if I'm stupid*
Neutral: Only if you teach some New Yorkers not to ask obvious questions.
Example below
A D train is at 59th street on the express tracks, this is what I hear:
Woman: "Is this train running express?"
Conductor: "yes"
Woman: "ok"
Me: "Local trains stop over there" *points to local track*
Woman: "I know" *Makes a weird face at me, as if I'm stupid*
Well while that is true, there are switches beyond the station that could allow an express train to go local. (it could happen)
As if a regular customer has (nor shud they have) any idea about the track map. As far as they are concerned, any train could become local (or vice versa) at any point.
Arti
Maybe the woman was on a D some other day that ran local (for a GO), and she didn't know if that was the regular service patterns. Or maybe there were signs up claiming that the D was supposed to be going local right then, but the GO was cancelled. Or maybe she just wasn't sure.
Increasing headways (e.g. from 6 minutes to 8 minutes)means reducing service. How would that revitalize anything?
I was also thinking every Sunday the MTA could run consists of old train-cars like R10, redbirds, etc. not just for railfans but to add historical taste to the subway.
As for food and beverages, if NYC is gonna revitalize its subway, the one thing it really does need, is BATHROOMS.
Why don't they just turn out the lights and fill the subway up with dirt ! When the fare was a nickel , people made $1.00 a week ! You could rent an apartment for $20 ! It cost MONEY to provide service . At less than $1.66 a ride (metrocard), the subway is still a bargain .
1) Lower fares (due to discounts) -- drastically lower relative to inflation.
2) Richer pensions.
3) Less taxpayer support for transit.
How did they do it? They BORROWED and put the debt on the MTA's books. Now we are screwed.
In all seriousness though, I DO think the subway, and ALL public transportation countrywide should be fully federally funded, and free.
One thing I don't get about the way things work in general is how anti-transit our laws are setup. Anti-transit people proclaim roadways "pay for themselves" when that is anything but the truth. Gas taxes are levied and its a relative invisible tax - most people don't register gas taxes as a real tax.
Roadways get priority planning and funding from general fund sources all the time.
Gas taxes, in reality, are just a sales tax that is dedicated into a special fund for transportation purposes only. Roadways never have paid for themselves, and never will.
At least in NY, you guys have governments that recognize transit is a valuable resource. In many areas of the nation - the validity of transit in and of itself is questioned. That's how backwards it can many times be.
That's the common wisdom, but I'm skeptical. Mass production can work wonders on cost per unit. And nobody would have to go around collecting the quarters from the meters or writing parking tickets; it would all be billed automatically.
You nail roads in cities with parking fees and between cities with tolls - that way you make most money.
That just encourages through traffic to pass through cities.
That ignorant crack was out of line. I apologize.
Making transit free is nothing more than a social service. Most people don't need that social service. It does not make sense to mix transit with welfare.
Looked at mathematically (where f is the fare, d is the distance, k is the rate at which distance is charged and c is the base rate), a rather simplified model would be:
f=kd+c
k and c are both constants. In both a flat fare and a free system, k=0.
Chuck
I call myself Trainsofthefuture because I'm an idealist, and that's all you need to know.
It was a bad idea. I was just pointing that out.
No need to soil yourself over something small.
I'm not soiling anything.
I call myself Trainsofthefuture because I'm an idealist, and that's all you need to know.
I'm sorry if you took insult to my comment about your name, but I did not intend it that way.
1: go back to PARTIAL Use of tokens; give passengers the option of choosing tokens or Metrocards/
Now that tokens are gone, they're gone. A much better idea would be turnstyles that accept cash or UTT's, like PATH has. I mean that's what the government made the Universal Transit Token for anyway.
2: Start increasing headways on BMT and IND lines, both rush and off-peak hours
Re: rush, should they use the cars they don't have or the track capacity that isn't available. Re: off-peak are the trains full or empty? If they are not very full now, the headways are fine.
3: STRICTLY ENFORCE a NO FOOD OR BEVERAGE RULE (watch how quickly the tracks get clean)
Try to take away a man's morning cup of Joe and you'll see so many people head for their cars it will make your head spin. Why not just enforce littering laws?
-construct the South Ferry terminal from a loop to a stub-end terminal
EW! Terminals severely restrict tph!
7: Build replicas of IRT kiosks at certain stations to protect passengers from the elements, as well as add a historic air to neighborhood streets
Does this take priority over like...reparing really sketchy parts of track and tunnelways that look to be falling appart?
It seems that many of your initiatives would sort of give one a fancy system without any real improvements. Do you think that people would prefer a crappy system that looks nice over a well functioning system that is a little tired?
1) What lines do the R142's run on?
2) What lines do the R142A's run on?
3) What lines do the R143's run on?
4) Who built the R142's?
5) Who built the R142A's and R143's?
6) What couplers do the R142's, R142A's, and R143's use?
7) Do the cab doors swing or slide on the R142's, R142A's, and R143's?
8) How do the double door storm doors work (how they slide, which storm door does the work, etc.) on the R142's and R142A's?
9) Name three innovations of the R142's.
10) What are the nine differences between the R142's and the R142A's (appearance and sounds)?
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
By "safely" I mean that one's hand is in contact with the grab bar (fixed to the outside of the car) as long as one's center of mass is between cars. (Assume that one does not have the strength of Superman.)
It's not a problem on any of the other 51-foot or 60-foot equipment, including the R-143 (although the R-143 doors are overly heavy, IMO).
-pull working handle
-push other handle with hip
The doors open
-Transfer hand to grab bar on opposite car.
-Push working door handle with hip
-transfer hand to other door handle and pull
Congratulations! You've successfully walked between subway cars using one hand!
I assume you're being facetious with the hip, but it's the best suggestion I've seen yet.
The grab bars are much more useful for support. Unfortunately, I only have two hands. (And a hip, I suppose.)
It's a much beefier handle, too. R-142 door handles bend easily, according to CI Peter, wherever he is these days.
And, remind me, how does one grasp the exterior R-142 door handles to begin with?
For bombardier cars, I open the right.
Kawasaki --> the left.
Why bother holding onto the dummy-door handle if it's a dummy door?
However, I hope I don't find myself in a situation where I'm crossing and the train sways violently.
The reason that you will not ever see anyone go inbetweeen cars on a <6>, unless they are insane, or just stupid.
1. R142 Runs on the 2,5 and 4 lines.
2. The R142A runs on the 4 and 6 lines.
3. The R143 runs on the L, and M (weekends only)
4.Bombardier
5. Kawasaki
6. Dont know
7. Swing
8. You slide one door panel over and the other follows.(to put it more simply, you slide the right door panel to the right, and the left door panel usually goes left.)
9.a) Automated announcements
b) first subway cars to have AdA accesability
c) First IRT cars that don't require rollsigns.
For extra credit: The R142's have ATO
10. I'll try my best
1 One has a tri tone acceleration sound(R142), one has a violin sound(R142A), 2.The fron LED sign is pure red on the R142's, The one on the R142A's are more of a reddish orange, 3. The LCD on the sides have a black background, and yellow/golden letters/number characters(R142A), one has a more greenish background(R142), 4. R142A's have faster acceleration then the R142's. 5. The middle bar of each R142A is a whole peice, while on the R142, the bar is of several peices held together.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
As for the R142A's, I ment it makes this sound: IEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.
b) first subway cars to have AdA accesability no- R110s
c) First IRT cars that don't require rollsigns. no- No Irt cars untill the 1938 steinways had rollsigns
For extra credit: The R142's have ATO No- They dont have ATO. even if they did, some R21-22s, and the R44s and R46s did before them
0/4= BAD You Lose :)
A: 2,4,5
2) What lines do the R142A's run on?
A: 4, 6
3) What lines do the R143's run on?
A: L and M(M weekends only)
4) Who built the R142's?
A: Bombardier
5) Who built the R142A's and R143's?
A: Kawasaki
6) What couplers do the R142's, R142A's, and R143's use?
A: Don't know.
7) Do the cab doors swing or slide on the R142's, R142A's, and R143's?
A:R142 doors swing in. I'm going to assume they do the same on the R142A and R143.
8) How do the double door storm doors work (how they slide, which storm door does the work, etc.) on the R142's and R142A's?
A: On the R142, the door on the right works. On the R142A, the door on the left works.
9) Name three innovations of the R142's.
The overhead bar that goes along the length of the ceiling, stripmaps, and the ADA-compliant seat in the cars with an operating cab.
10) What are the nine differences between the R142's and the R142A's (appearance and sounds)?
1. R142 makes the tri-tone violin sound while R142A makes an "IEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE" sound on take off.
2. The R142 digital signs have a pause in between readings. R142A readings are continuous and have no pauses.
3. R142 PA speakers run along the center of the ceiling. R142A have them staggered left and right on the ceiling.
4. For the R142 storm doors, the one on the right works. For the R142A storm doors, the one on the left works.
5. The front face of the R142 is made of two pieces, as evident here (pay close attention to the area under the digital sign)...
The front face of a R142A is one continuous piece.
6. The interior LEDs on the R142A are brighter than those used on the R142.
7. On the outside of the R142A, there is a longitudinal band that runs along the whole length of the train. For the R142, there is no such band, but if you look closely, you could see a thin line where the band should be
8. The overhead handlebar on the R142A is a continuously welded piece. For the R142, you can clearly see parts of the handlebar are separate and are held together with joints.
9. The R142 and R142A stormdoor handles look considerably different.
10. How can anybody forget the first thing I look at - the trucks? The 142's have a chevron rubber primary suspension and a pair of air bags. The 142A's and 143's are radius arm trucks (note the 142A trucks are not quite the same as those on the 143's) with a single air bag.
Also, the bottom of the exterior side door post reinforcement flares out on the 142's. It's straight on the 142A's.
Don't forget that on R142s the speakers are mounted on the roof while on the R142as they are above the ad strips.
Also, the door open lights on the R142s are mounted like those on the R110bs, while they are mounted conventionally on the R142as.
Julian
Those door lights are in different locations on the R142 and R142A.
1) The (2), (4), (5), <5>, and occasionally the (3).
2) The (4), (6), and <6>.
3) The (L), and the (M) Weekend Shuttle.
4) Bombardier.
5) Kawasaki.
6) "Ohio Brass".
7) Swing.
8) One storm door panel slides to its respective side, and, without pushing, the opposite storm door panel slides to its respective side at the same time to create the wheelchair accessible opening.
9) a. Wider doors.
b. Exterior p.a. speakers.
c. Flip-down seats.
10) a. The R142's have their window frames sealed vertically, while the R142A's have their window frames sealed horizontally.
b. At the car midsection, the R142's have the upper sheet of stainlees steel at a higher level than the lower sheet of stainless steel, creating a black line. The R142A's have a raised strip of stainless steel there.
c. The R142's sound like violins during deceleration/acceleration. The R142A's make a futuristic whine when decelerating/accelerating.
d. The R142's have a two-piece [outside] cab door frame. The R142A's have a one-piece door frame here.
e. The R142's have their stanchions, poles, and bars welded to the ceilings/floors with fat seams. The R142A's have their stanchions, poles, and bars welded to these areas with thinner and neater seams. The R142's ceiling bar is also cut up in sections. The R142A's have a continuous bar.
f. The R142's have their window frames mounted outside the car with screws. The R142A's have their window frames dipping inside the car with few screws.
g. The LCD signs on the car sides have gaps between announcements on the R142's. They're continuous on the R142A's.
h. The R142's have an LED side route display. The R142A's have this in LCD form.
i. The R142 p.a. speakers are ceiling mounted. The R142A p.a. speakers are mounted on the sides of the ceiling.
What kind of person confined to a wheelchair would try to cross between cars!? Isn't that sort of dangerous?
Technically, these aren't true. The R110a/R110b introduced the first two. I believe the R142 introduced the flip-down seats.
Julian
http://community.webshots.com/user/Subscott
The smell, the speed...how could someone NOT like them?
I didn't even know you were on the trip... o.o
NO! it is NOT an ememrgency brake handle. It is not an *emergency* brake: it is a PARKING BRAKE. Setting that brake by vandals is what destroyed car 3333. That is because it dragged the rear end of the train making it string the curve. (Try it with your model train as it goes around a curve, just grab the end car and watch the train "string" or pull straight across the curve.
The parking brake is important. When trains (frieght, passenger or subway) are laid up in the yard, a sufficient number of parking brakes must be set to keep the train from rolling away. (The air brakes do not hold once all of the air is bleed off of the system.)
To apply the brake using this gismo you rachet up a chain that physically pulls the brake pads into contact with the wheel. But when releasing the brake, that lever will not spin or turn. Just kick the paul away from the rachet, and the chain will release the brakes, but the handle does not turn. It is used only to apply the brakes.
Elias
I could always tell on a walkthrough if I'd climbed a consist that had been laid up by someone who had an "escapee" before - I'm sure you know the little layup yard at Stillwell between the B and N lines - some of the arnines would have all TEN of 'em set ... rule of "3 or more" not withstanding, some of the boys would go NUTS. One good side though of doing the 32's is when us Bronx boys moved upstate, I could operate a water well WITHOUT priming it first. =)
Make that the handbrake. My mistake.
Happy New Year!
Chuck Greene
It was moved to the cab area after people did play with it.
The activation of the parking brake by vandals is what caused this wreck.
It stopped the rear of the train, and caused the train to "string" into the wall. (Instead of following the tracks, the train tried to make a straight line between the front and the rear like pulling a string straight... unfortunatly the wall was already in that place.)
Elias
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
At 8th Street station the train was held for a while because there was a train with equipment problems at 23rd Street.
After a while we get to 14th Street and I notice that there's a W in front of us, so we follow the W.
At 23rd Street station, I notice another W, this time running on the express track next to us.
At 28th Street I could see ahead to 34th Street, where there was no mistake in that there were two northbound W trains in that station. The first W train, the one in front of us on the local track, left, and we rolled into 34th Street. Looking at the W on the express track, it was deserted.
The T/O radios in to control and gets two greens, meaning we got to leave first (I assume the other W at 34th crossed over behind us after we left.)
Several minutes late now... Ride's normal (50 MPH under the East River ^o^) until we get to Queens Plaza. As soon as the train hits the switch and enters the station, BLINK go the hold lights. Once stopped in the station, out comes someone from Queens Plaza tower. KNOCK-KNOCK to the T/O's cab. He says something to the likes of, "Do me a favor, punch Cancel, and punch Express, we'll cross you over, you'll have a clear route up to Roosevelt and Continental."
So the R goes to the express track, and I hop off at my station, Roosevelt Avenue, at around 6:43 PM. Interestingly there was a G train entering Roosevelt simultaneously, and a whole contingent of local riders waiting on the Platform. I could see them scurry out the side windows after realizing that an R was pulling in as well... But they eventually got the news... and crammed their way onto the G.
So ends one of those subway railfan stories that I would only post here if it was really interesting ^o^
Call letters were 1721 "R" 95th, by the way.
>I could see them scurry out the side windows after realizing that an R was pulling in as well.<
Looking out the side windows I could see them scurry after realizing that an R was pulling in as well.
Sounds better =)
til next time
I was just expressing my opinions with the recent 12-9's
Christmas is a very stressful time for some people, and suicide rates always go up then. There are so many fond rememberaces of times past and for some, such a desolute or hopless situation for the future. Many depressed people commit suicide this time of year. Indeed all of the sucicides that I have attended have been in the fall.
Suicide by 12-9 is both quick (read painless) and certain. It is available to anybody near a rail line. And few people have guns. Believe it or not, the city has LESS guns per 1000 people than we do out here, where they are as common as farms. Indeed, up until the '60s it was common for kids to park their rifles along with thier coats as they entered the school house. (The idea being that they would shoot some dinner on the way home.)
It is not as easy as you think to commit suicide, and there are 6 to 10 attempts for each success. Of the gunshot deaths that I attended, only one was a suicide, the other was an accient. Both were rifles. An elderly man shot himeself because he was dispondant over a medical diagnosis, and a 14 year old accidently shot himself while cleaning a rifle. Apparently nobody told him to clean the breach first. Another suicide a 14 yearold boy hung himself in the family barn. His dad found him dangling at the end of a rope. The other was a carbon monoxide poisoning. The family thought it was acciental, the sheriff ruled otherwise.
I have seen many wounds, (knife, drill and saw) intentional and accidental, and none of those resulted in death.
Still most of the deaths I have attended (medical notwithstanding) were MVCs. People not wearing their seat belts. I have never cut a corpse from a car who was wearing a seat belt.
Elias
http://www.snopes.com/holidays/christmas/suicide.asp
Around here, they just shoot themselves and take a few neighbors out with them.
Platform doors. They won't work unless there is standardized rolling stock.
Be careful, he acts crazy and does post on Subtalk. If you see him anywhere on the subway system, RUN!
For those who saw me, I went on the platform floor for this one.
150 MOD trip Photos
Before starting the slideshow, please maximize the window first. To return to Subtalk at anytime, click the BACK button. The last leg of the trip on the J line, I had a RF seat so I was able to take every picture out of the window with the sunset in the backdrop.
Enjoy!
After doing some shopping at the Pennsauken Mart, I rode the 409 bus to Burlington, then got on the 419 back to Camden. At Riverside, I saw 3516 on the line. The bus and the light rail car sort-of raced down River Road, the bus losing when two dingbats got on. On of the dingbats didnt have her fare ready, and it took her almost two minutes to put all of the exact fare into the box. Car 3516 then rushed by. When the bus got to Camden, car 3516 was on the way back to Trenton.
It seems that NJT simulations is being ramped up in preparations for the full dress rehearsal, and then the real thing in February.
The stations are almost [about 95%] finished. The closed-circuit TV cameras have been installed, Electronic screens are installed, and the stumps where the ticket machines will be installed are in place. It looks like they will be in place during the month of January. At Camden, the West Headhouse at Broadway is just about finished, with only the ticket machines left to be installed.
Finally, it seems that the River Line will be a reality when February 15 comes around.
I am not including you in this in any way :)
I tried "pinging" the talks first and got a "site not responding" message by the IP adress.
I then "pinged" the root server address, same message.
I then traced the route from my computer to the site and the program bombed out like it hit a road closed sign.
Perhaps Dave will reveal what really happened, presuming he finds out.
Not that fancy professional sites have 100% reliability. Nytimes.com is down quite frequently, and even Slate.com - run by Microsoft! - was running extremely slowly this afternoon.
Chuck Greene
Gee, I am happy I am not the only one here that thought the world had not come to an end.
I thought Davids somewhat sarcastic answer to this quandary was right on.
"Once again I simply remind you that you guys aren't paying for 24/7 round the clock systems monitoring and support. Stuff breaks. People sleep. Get over it."
John
#3 West End Jeff
Glad to see it back this AM.
I got the same error too. I thought it was my computer. I'm glad to see this place back.
Probably near Maspeth Depot.
Regards,
Jimmy
Jimmy
Those are good choices. Both of those stations have to duck under the incoming tunnel lines from under the east river.
The LIRR tracks at 32nd and 33rd street may be deeper still since they go under the BMT/IND/PATH complex at 33rd Street. But of course that *is* a different system, and there is no station there.
How about the WTC station. That is sitting on the bed rock seven stories below the surface level, and about six stories below sea level.
Elias
It might be very deep according to the surface level, but it *is* well above sea level, and certainly not the lopwest point on the system.
Elias
I would agree with you on that (when referring to the lowest level). To get to street level from the J/Z trains, one has to go up through two levels: the E train level and the mezzanine level. The street level is above that.
Koi
Remember that the original posting asked about depth relative to sea level, not the surrounding terrain. A shallow station in a low area could easily be "deeper" than a deep station in a hilly area.
For example, by the sea level criterion, the Jerome Avenue elevated is actually as "deep" as (or deeper than) the nearby Grand Concourse subway at some points.
Here they are -- highest and deepest stations by borough (street level to platform):
BRONX
Highest: Intervale Avenue, White Plains Road Line, 54 feet
Deepest: 149th Street-Grand Concourse, Jerome Avenue Line, 88 feet
BROOKLYN
Highest: Smith-9th Street, Prospect Park Line, 92 feet
Deepest: Clark Street, New Lots Avenue Line, 68 feet
MANHATTAN
Highest: 125th Street, Broadway-Seventh Avenue Line, 50 feet
Deepest: 191st Street, Broadway-Seventh Avenue Line, 174 feet*
QUEENS
Highest: 61st Street-Woodside, Flushing Line, 49 feet
Deepest: 21st Street-Van Alst, Crosstown Line, 44 feet*
*Unfortunately, my source does not have data for the Archer Avenue Line or 63rd Street Line stations.
David
Impressive, seeing as the WPR line is below the Jerome line at that point.
Roosevelt Island is politically part of Manhattan. Since the post office finds it easier to deliver by truck than by subway or tram, the mail comes from Queens.
I don't know whether Welfare Island was New York-44, New York or something else before the bridge opened in 1957 and the only access was via elevator from the Queensborough Bridge.
Jimmy
Wrong, Wrong and Wrong.
The train travels downhill from 116th street to 125th street and then back up hill to the 137th Street station. If I am reading my topographical maps correctly, then 116th is the highest in manhattan relative to sea level.
Also, if I read the topo map correctly 241st St WPR is both the highest station in the Bronx and the Summit of the system.
Smith 9th Street is the highest in Brooklyn, but comes in 3rd system wide.
Elias
CG
No... Those are elevated stations and only a few feet above sea level, as they are on the low lands north of the heights.
Did you ever wonder why the boradway line was only two tracks between 137th Street and Dyckman Street? That section is NOT cut and cover, but rather a deep bore construction, so those stations are deep, but not "high" relative to sea level, even though the Washington Hights area is higher relative to sea level than the 116th Street area.
Elias
If I read the one topo I could find, it looks like the intersection of 116/Bway is 110 feet above sea level, so figure that the station itself is 80-90 feet above.
Pure guess work says the platforms are maybe 30-40 feet above street level? So if the low lands are more than 40 or so feet above sea level, then maybe a bit more rigorous analysis is needed to answer this question.
How low are the low lands? I couldn't find a topo for that neighborhood, but I do remember steep uphills from 215 on the 1 to Dyckman on the A (when I got bored running loops around Central Park a few years ago, I started taking the subway out to various points and running home).
CG
CG
Thanks,
Dave
P.S.: Not to nitpick, but isn't Marble Hill and the 225th Street station on the 1/9 considered part of Manhattan, even though it is physically located on the NY mainland in the Bronx? If it is part of Manhattan, then aren't there 4.5 elevated stations in Manhattan: 125th, Dyckman, 207th, 215th, 225th?
Dyckman is the one that I called the 0.5 . It's one of my favorite stations in the system. It is right at the tunnel portal and built into the side of a hill. So the northernmost part of the station (and only entrance) is elevated. But the southernmost portion is at grade along the southbound platform and a bit below grade at the southernmost end of the northbound platform.
CG
Brooklyn.. .......Smith/9th Sr/IND (also highest in system)
Bronx............ Gun Hill Road/IRT White Plains Rd Line
Queens........... 121st St/BMT Jamaica
Manhattan ........125th St/IRT Broadway
If you take sea level, then the F line is strange-- due to topography. 7th ave in Brooklyn is higher than 4th Ave. After leaving 4th Ave the street that the F train runs underneath (9th Street) climbs a very steep hill.
Els:
Brooklyn: Smith-9 Sts, Broadway Jct. complex or West 8 St
Manhattan: 125 Street viaduct on 1/9
Bronx: Gun Hill Rd, 241 St Wakefield 2/<5>
Queens: Queensboro Plaza, 61 St Woodside, 121 St(?), Lefferts Blvd(?)
Staten Island: Clifton(?)
Subway:
Brooklyn: 15 St-Prospect Park, Grand Army Plaza
Manhattan: 86 Street 1,9,B,C,4,5,6(?), 116 St 1,9
Queens: Union Turnpike-Kew Gardens(?)
Bronx: Grand Concourse Line between 161 St and Tremont Ave(?), 149 St-Grand Concourse 4
Staten Island: New Dorp-Open Cut(?)
This is a tough one, but i gave it my best.
Regards,
Jimmy
Over 100 new photos from the weekend and a complete trip report.
Enjoy!
Do you still want me to post my version of the trip report, along with the list of Subtalkers who attended?
And on a final note; It was a pleasure to meet you on the trip. I see a very smart kid with a lot of potential. Keep up the excellent work.
Sure, go ahead and post your trip report. You are the official Subtalk Reporter!
Enjoy!
High Quality (10.3 MB)
High Quality (10.3MB Quicktime)
Click on the picture, and then click on any picture numbered 53-101 or higher to check these pictures out.
It's gotten way too expensive to keep all New Yorkers in Depends. People should just go around bottomless and put newspapers down on the ground.
Observe this picture:
You can see in all 3 letters that it is in fact not quite Copperplate. It is pretty damm close though.
What he found was because of most of these tiles being hand painted and the signs predate digital typography, there was no modern equivalent of these faces. Copperplate is as close as you'll get to the tiles, but the old signs had nothing.
I had him create for me a font based on the old signs, but even that proved to be difficult and not a perfect match due to the variance in the signs.
I think I'd be better off simply photographing existing signs until I get all the letters and numbers I need.
Do all these letters and numbers even exist in IND station tiles? (Hell, I'll even take IRT tiles, they're somewhat similar)
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 A D G H N O R S T U
Also, are the tiles at Euclid Avenue the same? I sure as hell hope so, 'cause I can't exactly photograph all the letters and numbers I need in that face when they don't exist!
I have a lot of the fonts people want such as Helvetica, and Copperplate, because they come with the Mac OS.
You cannot trade fonts between PCs and Macs, so don't bother to ask.
You can find a "1" at 169 St.
A "2" can be found at 21 St - Van Alst.
A "3" could be found at...I don't know...
A "T" "O" "U" and "N" can be found at Fulton St (IND Crosstown).
There are others but I cannot think of them off the top of my head.
4,5,7,0 can all be found at 47-50 Sts Rockefeller Center.
Can't think of an "X" (Lexington doesn't count!) but here's a Z:
Z = queens plaZa
What about the ordinals like 'th' 'nd', 'rd' 'st', etc.
Don't forget "H AND M".
wayne
wayne
It came with my computer and Windows XP. I haven't added any fonts to the computer since I got it and it's there....
Yes you can. If your two computers are networked here is how to do it. Make sure the drive that has the %SystemRoot%\Fonts folder (normally on the C: drive) on the XP box is shared. On the 98 box Start > Control Panel > Fonts > File > Install New Font, Select the drive that has %SystemRoot%\Fonts folder then select the font you want to install then hit OK
If your two computers are not networked You need a floppy disk and will have to go in to a command prompt on the XP box from the %SystemRoot%\Fonts folder. Start > Run > type the command CMD then hit OK. Type CD WINNT\FONTS hit enter. Type COPY NAME OF FONT.TTF A: hit enter. On the 98 box put the floppy you just copied the font to in floppy drive then Start > Control Panel > Fonts > File > Install New Font, Select the A: drive
John
E-mail me with the subject header "IND Tile Fonts" and I will explain how to put hard drive from 98 box in to XP box so you can copy the font file from XP to the 98 hard drive.
John
I didn't even know such an error message existed:
"ScanDisk has restarted 10 times because Windows or another program has been writing to this drive. Quitting some running programs may enable ScanDisk to finish sooner. Do you want to continue receiving this warning?"
I went to the store, came back and saw this. I don't even have any applications open, nor have I done anything!
As soon as I can get another Zip drive, I'm getting everything off there and I'm gonna chuck it out the window, then go buy a hammer so I can smash it up good.
wayne
Question: aren't Broadway Junction, Liberty, Van Siclen, and Shepherd supposed to be the same color? And shouldn't Euclid, 76th, and beyond have been the color that Euclid currently is? What the hell happened?
Couldn't they have at least switched Broadway Junction's tiles with Euclid's?
And if that's "new-style" IND, then what the hell is Van Wyck, Jamaica Center, Sutphin Blvd, Roosevelt Island, and 21 St-Queensbridge?
New style post-unification.
(Old style post-unification would include 57th St/6th Av and Grand/Chrystie.)
I don't even know if we can consider the Archer stations or the 63rd St tunnels "IND" stations. There is no "IND style" tiles anymore because there is no "IND". I guess you can call them "new style" MTA tiles, with the "old style" being what they have on the 4th Ave line, and removed from the Broadway Line.
Now the big question is, what should the 2nd Ave subway stations look like and what we will call those tiles. We can't call it either IND or BMT as there is no such animals anymore. I assume the 2nd Ave subway will have ultra "modern" looking, and nothing like we have anywhere else now.
wayne
My question is this though. If the orange brick was put up later than the cement block tile, why did they skip 49th St when they were doing all the other Broadway Stations in the cement block tile? Or is the cement block tile under the orange brick? Was 49th Ever done in refrigerator tile?
Cost me a bit more as I had to have it custom created. As I said, there is no existing font that even came close enough for me to be happy.
1 2
125th St
D
110th St - Cathedral Pkway
3
103rd St
6 9
96th St
8
86th St
7
72nd St
5
50th St
4
14th St
G R S T
Spring St
N
Canal St
A U
Bway - Nassau
H
High St - Brooklyn Bridge
O
Hoyt - Schermerhorn Sts
But I am NOT going to share it with anyone because every time in thepast that I have sent something on to others on SubTalk, not a one ever bothered to say thanks.
Has anyone found the font used on the old silkscreened roll signs yet?
I asked this question on news:alt.binaries.fonts last summer, NYCTA and WMATA uses Helvetica 52
John
I'm not sorry though, imagine the R-1/9's running with scratched windows, torn seat cushions and bent fan blades and missing light bulbs. Not a pretty sight brought to by a selfish riding public.
Bill "Newkirk"
Looks like you just put the thread firmly on topic. ;-)
But I can't think of any instance in which a "let's stop this right now" post ever did anything but further agitate a situation rather than calm it.
Communism doesn't seem to exist anywhere in the world any more, except U.S. college campuses. ;-)
Republicans don't make you read endless volumes of theory or expect you to know Lenin's statements on absolutely everything. It would get in the way of cocktail hour. :)
OTOH, if you're a good Communist, and you can't quote Lenin's famous line on carburetor repair, you might just find yourself heading to the countryside for reeduation, if you're licky.
...or lucky.
That should be our state motto instead of "Excelsior" (which means "packing material") ... "State of the incumbency" ... has a nice ring to it. :)
Now stick around so dat we may "PUMP YOU UP"!
Here in New York, we're not ALLOWED to recall Paturkey or any of our other entrenched crooks. And the voters keep re-electing them so I suppose we're kinda scrod (past pluperfect tense) ... heh. But as I always need to remind ya, you've got me wrong ... I don't believe in teh left OR the right ... I'm an old time programmer who KNOWS the truth. Were it not for the exclusive OR with the horizontal sync pulses, the old PONG game would have proven the reality - swing to far to one extreme and the dot shows up on the OTHER side. Pendulums swing. Entrenched powers screw up. Just a matter of time.
As always though, one must ask ... whatever happened to LOGIC and common ground? There actually IS a center where people can agree and form a consensus. For now, you guys have that honeymoon until the ideologues grab the handles. :)
Well of course you can only recall Democrats. Once Republicans get in they rig it so they stay there forever.
I guess where I went wrong was my first step into civil service with the TA, although THERE I learned that neither TWU nor management was my friend - a rude awakening at the time, but subtle. It's when I went to work FOR the politicos that I finally learned that left wing, right wing, democrat, republican makes NO difference. Doesn't matter if the politico is YOUR crook or THEIR crook, they're ALL crooks. The altruism we were all taught in "civics class" was as Penn and Teller named their Showtime series, "Bullsh*t" ... no matter WHO gets in office, they're out for those who funded them. The "public" be damned if they're on the wrong side of the contributors who have the "access" and the "ear" ...
So sadly, you won't see any "partisanship" out of me, they're ALL crooks. But IDEOLOGUES *really* give me agita. :)
Having attended school there I am familliar with his tricks, all taken from the Republican playbook. He has attempted to cut or eliminate train service, laid off a shitload of state healthcare workers, rolled back state emmissions protections to exempt the Sooty 6 powerplants and allowed a cable to be built that would export CT power directly to Large Island, raising domestic power rates. I would think that would be enough to get him on a Republican party wall calender.
Sometimes you just befuddle me with your inconsistancies.
I have learned that some things are much more important than if some politian is giving jobs to his cousins. Republicans and their hypocritical, me first, greedy, exclusive philosophy represents the greatest theat to personal liberty and the overall prosperity of this country in the last 20 years. In times of crisis you need to make compromises. The enemy of your enemy is your friend. I don't care how skanky someone might personally be as long as they vote against the Republicans and their adgenda. I mean look how we were allied with Stallin in WW2. Once the Republicans are defeated then I'll be more descriminating about people in the opposition party. Of course I don't agree with everything a Democratic canidate stands for and I am not opposted to personally disliking a Democratic canidate who might suck, but what's the alternative? It's a two party system. I therefore choose the lesser of two evils.
People in CA and NYC need to realize that their elevation of Republicans to positions of national prominance, even if their are the better canidate, will only lead to the nationwide collaspe of those opposing the Republican juggernaught and hasen the transformation of this country into a puppet theocracy controled by the wealthy. Damn selfish bastards, couldn't even take one for the team. Well, as those in NYC have already learned with Bloomey, the citizens of CA will reap what they sow. Just don't come bitching to me when the puppet masters make your dark horse figurehead actor put the kibosh on rail transit, advantages for the disadvantaged and decisions involving the privacy of one's body.
Listen, I don't really care that Rolland got some state employees to fix up his house. Its a trivial issue. Every job has its "perks" and people should not be expected to not take advantage of them. The only reason I grab a flag and yell liar liar pants on fire is because I want his ass out of office because he's a Republican dick. He pollutes the air and cuts rail transit. As long as a polititian don't pull an Enron style looting or act contrary to the principles on which the party suposidly stands for, I'll pick him or her over a Republican.
BTW, did you know that in the House and other more local seats voted on by "district", what was concieved to be the most dynamic part of government instantly reflecting the will of the people has become the most stagnent due to partisan Jerrymandring. Out of 435 house seats only 10 were contestable last election and 4 of those were in Iowa which has a non-partisan districting system.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Attending Hopkins (the University, not the Hospital) for a Masters in something or other. Has mentioned that he wants to work for the FRA and eventually run it.
Met him and his Dad while they were on a visit to the Baltimore Streetcar Museum a couple of months ago, where I spend a lot of my spare time. He seems to be a different person than his SubTalk persona.
What you read and what you get in person is pretty much the same.
BTW, when you come east in February for the big celebration, why not come a couple of days early and stop in Baltimore?
BSM is open every Sunday of the year, from 12 Noon to 5:00 PM.
If you decide to do so, drop me an e-mail.
The core Republicans would want nothing more than a reurn to the robber barron economy of the 1800's where the vast majority of the popularion lives in abject poverty either working at WalMart of polishing the marble floors of their social superriors. They hook in the majority of the population by promicing a world where "sinners" can be lynched on sight, persons of color are confined safely to the urban cores and a nickle off on your next tax bill.
Convervitices only want to conserve because they're on top and if they let things progress, they might not be on top any more. If you had millions of dollars why wouldn't you want to keep as many people poor as your could? Poor people can't threaten whatever livelyhood you might have set up nor can they encroach on your exclusive lifestyle.
I think that California air is making you loopy. You need to move to a more sane timezone.
OTOH, your garden-variety Democrat uses "right-wing," "hard right," "religious right," and (when you care enough to give the very best) "fascist" early and often, though "nazi" is only used for very, very special occasions.
Politicians respond to what they perceive the electorate wants, which in the case of many big cities (certainly New York) is for politicians to have opinions on the BIG ISSUES even if they have no relatin to local governance. This gives many big city politicians a pass on doing anything about local problems, because voters are too busy listening to their opinions on abortion (which they can't legislate locally) and war (though the city councils can't raise an Army).
In the suburbs, politicians (D and R) run on local issues, like crumbling houses, garbage collection, street lighting, public safety and drugs. On the village level, they don't even run as D and R, but under names like "Village Party," "Better Skunkhaven Party," to de-emphasize the party affiliation.
Fred, I had no idea you'd moved to eastern North Carolina :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Of course in CA there is no vegitation, no water for the lakes or rivers and no rain for the mud.
Suuurrre they are. The last actual Communists I knew were very aging Stalinists in the '70s. That is, if you even accept there are any "real" Communists since Bronstein was murdered. ;-)
Not very good theory. While full employment is a goal, make-work can fuel social parasitism.
This is not quite the same as the idea that something has value because of the amount of labor required to produce it, as opposed to intrinsic value, such as gold vs. oil.
More like he pretends to be conservative (just like Thatcher did). The last real conservative we had in power in this country was Sir Edward Heath - and he wasn't much use!
But at least the Duke had things named after him - a type of rubber boot, the capital city of New Zealand, and last but not least, filet mignon in a pastry shell.
And a pub within 15 minutes walk of where I live :-D
The Marquis Wellington, London Rd, Leicester.
So did Ronald Reagan.
As a member of a religious minority, however, I have a few liberal leanings.
Sea Beach? Never heard of it. Do you mean a through-routing of the Sea Gate Line with the Brighton Beach?
I'm only familiar with 2(one i voted for), who absolutly refuses to fund anything to work on the current budget. But then there's a lot of other ones who may believe in not raising taxes, but spend like crazy.
Amtrak, state's rail deal off track
"It's our plan to continue running them," Amtrak spokesman Dan Stessel said of the trains already delivered, but he noted that the turboliners cost more to operate than standard trains.
"The state, under the previous agreement, is obligated to compensate Amtrak for the incremental costs of running the turboliners," Stessel said. If the state declines to make up the difference, he said, "we will revert to standard Amfleet equipment."
I have no sympathy for Amtrak on this particular point. More attractive trains mean more passengers, so Amtrak is trying to have our cake and eat it, too. If they put on regular trains and business drops, I wouldn't be sympathetic to increasing any NYS subsidy to them to make up for it.
I also try to be pragmatic - which is something that is lacking where I live. I've never been to NYC, but here in TN its horrible.
This is my first post, btw. :)
I could rant and rave about mass transit and the lack of planning/funding all day. Nashville, for example, has some really horrid traffic for a city this size. The region's municipalities have little respect for mass transit of any type, and the central city is more then ripe enough for a starter LRT system. To this area's credit, they've devised a commuter rail plan, but its headed toward failure. First off, there is non-existant inner-city transit except for an unusable bus system; secondly the commuter rail line serves one of the least population-dense corridors in the metro area, and lastly - its 4 hourly trains in during the morning and 4 out during the evening. Its estimated that it'll cost $5 to use it too, and it should be opening in the next few years.
Anyway, there is plenty of time to talk about stuff like this. ;)
And thanks for the welcome.
It's hard to get anything rolling that's once hourly during rush hour, that's sucky.
I've read a thing or two about nashvilles rail plan, but didn't know those headlines. Not a great way to sell a whole city on alternative means of transportation, unless it follows an interstate that is.
As far as Bush goes with the SEC, that's how he got his money, questionable practices. :)
In other words, let people do as they please (sex, drugs, rock and roll) but when, as a consequence, when they are unable to earn a living or meet responsibilities to family members who are not working age adults, "society" has to do it for them?
May I point out that "liberals" were orignally what we would call libertarians today: do as you please, but if you screw up, you and your children die in the street -- unless someone of their own free will donates money to provide you with a place in a workhouse. That is internally consistent.
Those who believed that the community had more extensive obligations to each individual, and that individuals therefore had extensive non-voluntary (government enforced) obligations to the community in turn, were called socialists. They were also consistent.
What we have today is a choice of hypocrisies. Freedoms for people like us, responsibilities for people like them.
There is also a view that might be called compassionate liberatarianism, which is pretty close to mine: do as you please, and if you screw up, society will provide you and your children with the absolute minimum for survival, quite possibly meaning a foster home for your children, and don't bother whining that it was all society's fault rather than your fault, as no one's listening.
I'm in favor of sex and drugs for whoever wants it (I don't want the latter).
Which (other than STDs, pregnancy, social deterioration, and other minor problems) is why free sex becomes a problem once people reach the age where they would like to be swans instead of ducks. Right now about half the society settles into being geese.
I'm not quite aure I grasp all the waterfowl references. I am presuming that "geese" is not being used in the rail-passenger sense.
Swans mate for life. These raise a new set of cygnets each year and bring them up together. One of the sadder sights I've seen is a swan sticking by the side of its dead mate.
Geese mate for one season, and stay together and co-raise the goslings until they're ready to leave the nest (same season). The next season they each choose another mate.
http://www.birdcarvings.com/engagementcardinals.htm
I was the one who commissioned this art.
Why?
"Also, girls who freely give themselves away with promiscuity are nothing but cheap whores with little respect for themselves"
Then, you'd be describing most teenage girls, today.
Besides, free sex makes modern society what it is, a free for all for everyone.
Making a sentence all nice and smart-sounding doesn't make up for pulling facts out of your ass.
CDC estimates that 70% of all new HIV infections are among men, with MSM accounting for the majority 60% of those infections; heterosexual exposure accounting for another 15% and injection drug use for 25% of infections among men.
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). HIV Prevention Strategic Plan Through 2005. January 2001.
And adultery is a breach of contract. People don't go to jail for adultery.
ALABAMA
ARIZONA
COLORADO
FLORIDA
GEORGIA
ILLINOIS
INDIANA
KANSAS
MARYLAND
MASSACHUSETTS
MINNESOTA
MISSISSIPPI
NEBRASKA
NEVADA
NEW HAMPSHIRE
NEW YORK
NORTH CAROLINA
NORTH DAKOTA
OKLAHOMA
RHODE ISLAND
SOUTH CAROLINA
TENNESSEE
UTAH
VIRGINIA
WEST VIRGINIA
WISCONSIN
But the good news, anyway, is that the "age of consent" is only 13 in New Mexico, and adultery is OK. :)
Seriously, it's adultery IS a crime in the above states ... convictions may be another story ...
Fred: You never cease to amaze me. I agree with you 100%. By all means lets do away with free drugs. Lets do away with all those wasteful government subsidies for perscriptions for the elderly and the children. After all if they can't afford to pay for it lets just let them sicken and die. It probably isn't God's will for them to live if he didn't provide them with enough money to pay for their medication.
Do away with free sex. The prostitues of America will thank you for this one Fred. Lets bring back the good old days when ever town had a cathouse at the end of Main Street and you paid money for an evenings entertainment. If it was good enough for our grandfathers to pay for sex it should be good enough for us.
Your absolutely right on the question of bail. Once the police arrest someone why should we waste time with a trial and defense attorneys. Just lock the bastards up and throw away the key. WE could save even more tax dollars if we didn't heat the prisons or feed the inmates the way they do in cetrain countries. Just let them rot away and die. Society would be so much better. THe Founding Fathers sure goofed when they put that proviso in the Constitution about the right to a fair trial and legal counsel. Not to mention that ridiculous clause barring cruel and usual punishments.
F*** THEM: Someone else must have written this. The few times that I met you ,you came accross as an intelligent and thoughtful person,an educated man of letters. Something must happen to you when you return to the West Coast. You become a raging fanatic with no tolerance for any point of view but your own. I think the reason for this is that stuff Timothy Leary put in the reservoirs out there back in the 70's. If you like I could send you a few bottles of New York City drinking water to bring you back to sanity.
I leave you with a few thoughts:
1) Never speak ill of another man until you have walked a mile in his shoes.
2) Let the one among you who is without sin cast the first stone.
Best Wishes to you and Mrs Fred for a Happy and Healthy New Year.
PS: I know it is your beief that the sun rises and sets on the Sea Beach Line but you have been misinformed. It rises over the Long Island Railroad (Steel Rails to the Sunrise) and its sets somewhere over Hoboken, New Jersey.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Liberal, Democrat and Proud of It
But no, your post was just a convenient wayside stop to discharge a passenger - if I've got a gripe with you, you KNOW I'd make it personal. (grin)
But as for Rush ...
As to the drug thing though, ZERO tolerance. If people can be fired for having a poppy seed bagel, then the boy needs to wear one of those blue suits for a career and if he's behind a microphone, he can say "Welcome to Wal*Mart" ... after all, I'm going by his OWN words ... and I quote ... "Lock the drug users up and throw away the key!" ... blowhards should either ADHERE TO or eat their own words. At no time has he advocated any other policy to drug users, he's insisted that they do not deserve "treatment" or "mercy" ...
At first he said "no excuses" and I respected him for that. After his trip to the bin though, he's been backpeddling. Nope ... all respect for the boy gone. "Do as I SAY, not as I DO" don't wash with me.
*Besides, some SubTalkers think changing the radio station while driving is as dangerous as using a cell phone.
But not to worry, bro ... I'm no cheerleader for EITHER party, but I still respect you muchly because you're REAL ... THAT'S WHY you can't get elected. Give it up. :)
Or as I prefer to say to the dismay of politicos everywhere, "My Karma ran over your Dogma." Moo.
Well, at least you admit you have a problem.
I'll assume you're a Dean man then.
Conservatives also want to do their own thing, and to have the taxpayer bail them out. They are just different people, who do different things. There is NO political party or grouping in favor of responsibility? Want proof? Imagine the following poll:
As the city and state recover from recession, they should:
a) cut taxes
b) increase spending
c) repay all the unfunded pension liabilities, and all the debts run up from 2000 to 2004, all while continuing to bring the infrastructure up to speed, before doing either.
I believe I am the only vote for "C"
C makes sense, of course, but on the other hand A might work too. Cut taxes sufficiently and the city might see a burst of economic growth that will lead to higher revenues notwithstanding the tax cuts. Higher revenues will make it easier to deal with the pension/debt/infrastructure issues.
They're also following their money. Cut the welfare states off, and their taxes would be higher than ours.
I'm Chris, and a proud Liberal and Deaniac.
It's also called classical liberalism, I like the sound of classical.
It's also called classical liberalism, I like the sound of classical.
But by-and-large libertarians tend to identify themselves as "classical liberals" anyway.
Of course, saying "classical liberal" avoids the freight of having to subscribe to or defend "libertarian views." As Michael Moriarty said: "I'm such a libertarian I couldn't possibly join the party."
Literally no legal tolerance? You would outlaw Libertarianism out of all the political systems in the U.S.?
Wow.
If they outlaw the libertarians who will run the libraries?
Larry, RedbirdR33
It meant exactly that... Nothing more, nothing less. I don't believe in a nanny state that does everything for people, but I do believe in a system that economically enforces rules and has a basic set of safety nets/programs that help people help themselves (particularly in unemployment benefits, healthcare, and education). I do not believe in a government that tries to legislate and rule social behavior and issues.
That's my definition of liberal, if that means libertarian to you - then I'm libertarian. Personally I think libertarians are a bit extreme, as they don't see the role of governmetn at all (except for defense and the courts). I could point out why I disagree with this - but I respect others' views.
Politically - I see most conservative politicians not supporting alternative transit/rail and urban planning, which I disagree with. Cities can't exist without proper infrastructure planning and zoning, as well as gov't incentive to lure business and prosperity. Does gov't need to rule everything? Absolutely not. But it needs to provide basic infrastructure.
This is a major issue for me personally. I tend.. not always, but tend to favor Democratic stances on these issues. Again - not all Democrats are liberal, and not all Republicans are conservative (especially in the northeast). Again - my viewpoint is coming from a rural southeastern upbringing.
You must remember, in the southeast, it was almost like a 3rd world nation within the USA until the mid 1900's. Today its actually growing more then the northeast is - probably because its still yet to be settled and its untamed land in comparison (except Florida, which is very populous).
In my travels around the nation - I see a CLEAR difference between styles of cities. I haven't been far into the northeast, but I have been to Chicago, Pittsburgh, Cincinnati and several others inbetween. They have very dense, urban, rich historic city centers. Southern cities by majority don't - with several exceptions (especially New Orleans).
Anyway, to get back on topic, privatized infrastructure is a POOR idea in my opinion. You can't have multiple companies creating different roadway systems for different regions and have it connect properly. Rail and Air are a bit different, but still require lots of federal administrative help to be successful (notably the air traffic control network, among other things which have to run under strict guidelines with each other).
Rail services need to be publicly ran entities, sure its fine to have private contractors to build the physical product and help deliver services; but it needs to be clearly defined and supported by governments.
And yes, much can be learned from history. You can't gamble transportation in the private marketplace (talking about 100% privatization). It is an insane idea in my opinion.
ONCE upon a time, there was the PRR, the NYC, the ERIE and a number of other "private concerns" who were in the transport business. They EACH built their own "route to the west" and competed fair and square.
Of course, they offered relative LUXURY compared to the other alternatives - private livery, motorbuses and worse. All were proud members of the private sector, each providing their own routes and competing on time and luxury for the price ... relative to "what the traffic will bear."
The reason I offer this meat for the tigers to battle over is that there are several principles at play here, ones that our own "enlightened conservative government" eschew, the realities of a "mobile world" served by the "motor vehicle", and finally the concept of "natural monopoly."
What I offer is that railroads NEVER WERE a "natural monopoly" back in the days when anyone with sufficient financial backing could "construct a route" and that the "natural monopoly" is not specifically such, but rather a "reality-imposed monopoly" in that NOBODY would make any money in the "private sector" providing a "necessity that is also a stockholder loss leader." Discuss amongst yerselves, I'm ferklempt. :)
Under the Cable Act, cable companies CAN overbuild one another if they wanted to, and the monopoly franchises of yesteryear are technically illegal. So rather than being a natural monopoly, this industry as WELL is more of a "de facto monopoly" since the overbuilding COULD occur if it was financially warranted or practical. Does this sorta explain where I was coming from?
There ARE a few municipalities here and there that have more than one cable company serving, though that's diminished with satellite providing a decent alternative. I'm sure many city folks remember ditching TimeWeenie and going with "RCN" ... heh.
After my posting of the Fasttrax article with it's breakdown of who supports rail, this might be interesting. I'd like to see what the views are of transit supporters. Unfortunately most of the people on here are from the NE I think, so there's probably going to be a skew towards either liberalism, or what I like to call New York Federalism. :)
I'm interested in seeing how people describe themselves in a no-names poll. I would have though the overall makeup would be a lot more to the left than it seems to be.
In trolling posts the extreme opinions get multiple votes, so to speak. In this poll they get just one.
I noticed that we're fairly evenly distributed down the line there. You wouldn't know it from the discussions on this board!
:-) Andrew
(So I'm allegedly some kinda left wing authoritarian - weird!)
I do find it revealing that on the question "Marijuana should be legalised", legalized was misspelled. The correct way is with a "Z", not an "S". I guess the test writer was stoned when he wrote it!!!
At least you escaped the same quadrant as Stalin, Robert Mugabe and the Pope, which somehow I've managed to end up in!
I do find it revealing that on the question "Marijuana should be legalised", legalized was misspelled. The correct way is with a "Z", not an "S".
Everyone in Britain (except bizarrely the Oxford University Press) spells it that way.
What do the British know about the English language?
Not a lot from the number of signs reading things like "Bobs' Cfe" and "potato's" you see round here!
Of course, that understanding might encourage people to says "Mary'r book," but facts is facts.
P.S. ON TOPIC!!! Many of the old IRT signs on numbered street stations said (for example) 96' Street, with the ' replacing the TH.
For example, some questions are traps, example: "If economic globalisation is inevitable, it should primarily serve humanity rather than the interests of trans-national corporations." That doesn't allow for the opinion that it could serve both (I'm not making an argument one way or the other--don't flame me). If you take the plain wording of the statement, you are being asked whether you would like to see the interests of faceless corporations trump those of humans.
Then there's "No one chooses their country of birth, so it's foolish to be proud of it." That's begging the question. Pride in (or rejection of) country (or family) does not have to have anything to do with the accidents of birth. Might as well say: "I didn't pick my father, so I'm not proud that he saved a million people from starvation, nor ashamed that he stole money from a church poor-box to buy booze."
Some questions are too politically tainted: "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need is a fundamentally good idea." That is doubly tainted beyond its simple wording. First, whether the responder is aware that this was the initial philosophy of the Soviet state, and second, by the knowledge (or lack thereof) that the policy failed and was abandoned.
There are questions that have objective answers but they ask you to make subjective judgments: "It's natural for children to keep some secrets from their parents." Of course it is, but the question doesn't differentiate between secrets appropriate to keep from parents (age-appropriate flirting or experimentation) and inappropriate (serious trouble at school), but what the question really would mean to many is "It's OK for my child to deceive me."
Another example of the "begging the question" is: "No broadcasting institution, however independent its content, should receive public funding." This doesn't allow for the belief that no broadcasting institution is ever truly independent.
Another trick question: "A significant advantage of a one-party state is that it avoids all the arguments that delay progress in a democratic political system." A person who says "Strongly Agree" on the objective basis that such a system might be able to deal with a war or industrialization more effectively that a democratic one is a lot different from a person who "Strongly Agrees" because they're admirers of totalitarianism. OTOH, a person who might "strongly agree" on the objective basis might be inclined to say "strongly disagree" to avoid seeming to approve of such a system.
But my biggest arguments with their methodolgy are these:
1) unlike most polls, there is no place for a neutral answer. Many of the questions are ones I could only answer on the Agree or Disagree side with great doubt (it doesn't let you skip a question);
2) any poll which attempts to get a single numerical result is inherently flawed--if I "strongly agree" that it's OK for individual people to enslave other people, but I "strongly disagree" that "international corporations should be able to control their employee's lives" a numerical result might put me at dead center--but it's not real nuanced; and
3) they didn't ask one of the most important questions: "Do you think that any poll which pretends to have the wisdom to properly weight and evaluate responses to flawed quesions can possibly be useful?"
Still, it was fun taking. It didn't cost me anything.
And what results do you think they're leaning towards?
I was taken aback by the questions I saw on the first page of the poll which seemed to be strongly worded questions on a very narrow and specific dogmatic view and thus I withdrew originally. Stiffened my lip and went for it this time, all 6 pages, and found many of the questions to be examinations of a specific idological (many conflicting, so I suppose it's MUCH fairer than the usual BS "polls" we're subjected to here) approach or mindset ... over the 6 pages, I found there was some attempt at balance, so I'm impressed now that I've actually seen ALL of it ...
The BAD news though:
Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: -1.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.74
Economic Left/Right: -1.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.05
That may have been true at some point in the past, but now politicians move seamlessly from public office to the "permanent government" of lobbyists, interest groups and foundations.
Oh, if only there were a VIABLE "third party" ... :(
I can't see any of our current third parties becoming either a major party or the second party because, by and large, they specifically attract people who are looking for a third party rather than broad slices of the electorate. Libertarians have become very influential, but, if they made the policy sacrifices necessary to become a major party, they wouldn't be the same party any more.
I would watch what happens in elections in this decade. The New Leftists in the Democratic Party are getting old. If they get the White House or either house of Congress back in 2004 they will get a shot in the arm. If they continue to lose ground (especially if Dean is the candidate and he gets creamed) one of two things will happen: either Democrats will feel that they have hit bottom, and will have a massive shake-up of the party, which is what happened to the GOP after their 1964 disaster, or else the DLC will emerge as an effective third party ("New Democrats?") which will doom the current Democratic Party.
A one-party country? Nah. Haven't come close to that since "the Era of Good Feeling."
Couldn't happen. They haven't abandoned coalition politics. But if there were actually a new "Era of Good Feeling" and that did happen, what Dean recently called "the Republican Wing of the Democratic Party" (ah, that man is a uniter!) would break off into the second party within a decade--probably withinone Presidential election cycle.
She's another uniter. ;-)
But it could happen, because she's been playing it much cooler than I think her instincts would otherwise dictate.
It depends on how things go in the intervening years for the current administration, who the GOP taps in '08, whether and what kind of primary challenge there is in both parties in '08, and how well Bill is able to control the campaign--he's probably the most savvy political kingmaker of the generation. It's almost odd he ran for President--he might have made a political boss that would have made Bill Tweed jealous.
Yes it does - either it serves both and in that primarily humanity or it serves both and not primarily humanity (be it a tie or a win for the corporations).
Some questions are too politically tainted: "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need is a fundamentally good idea." That is doubly tainted beyond its simple wording. First, whether the responder is aware that this was the initial philosophy of the Soviet state, and second, by the knowledge (or lack thereof) that the policy failed and was abandoned.
Errrmmmm... looking at it from over here, it's more the policy of the British government of 1945-51 which brought us such useful things as old age pensions and the National Health Service which are still going strong. Seeing as this is a political test, of course the questions are going to relate to various political positions - one may or may not be aware that that is what it's doing, but that is more a question of how much one know's oneself.
There are questions that have objective answers but they ask you to make subjective judgments: "It's natural for children to keep some secrets from their parents." Of course it is, but the question doesn't differentiate between secrets appropriate to keep from parents (age-appropriate flirting or experimentation) and inappropriate (serious trouble at school), but what the question really would mean to many is "It's OK for my child to deceive me."
I'd say that was the toughest question of the lot. It's designed to make you think. Its forcing you to give an answer either way will hopefully show some subconscious disposition towards authoritarianism or libertarianism.
Another example of the "begging the question" is: "No broadcasting institution, however independent its content, should receive public funding." This doesn't allow for the belief that no broadcasting institution is ever truly independent.
I suspect that that is an oblique reference to the BBC.
Another trick question: "A significant advantage of a one-party state is that it avoids all the arguments that delay progress in a democratic political system." A person who says "Strongly Agree" on the objective basis that such a system might be able to deal with a war or industrialization more effectively that a democratic one is a lot different from a person who "Strongly Agrees" because they're admirers of totalitarianism.
That's really just a difference in how far someone is comfortable with admitting their own views to themselves. It is pretty obvious that there are clear advantages in totalitarianism and that you therefore either take that to the conclusion of totalitarianism at least sometimes being a good or useful thing, or you decide it's outweighed by totalitarianisms problems and disadvantages. The test is nicely designed to give people a prod off the nice comfortable fence.
OTOH, a person who might "strongly agree" on the objective basis might be inclined to say "strongly disagree" to avoid seeming to approve of such a system.
But who would see what you put? Okay, there's a fashion for automatically disavowing anything that sounds like dictatorship on impulse, but that is really a conventional circumvention of independent thought and a more silent tyranny than that of a dictator.
1) unlike most polls, there is no place for a neutral answer. Many of the questions are ones I could only answer on the Agree or Disagree side with great doubt (it doesn't let you skip a question);
I'd say this was a good point in their methodology. It forces one to think out one's own position on an issue.
2) any poll which attempts to get a single numerical result is inherently flawed--if I "strongly agree" that it's OK for individual people to enslave other people, but I "strongly disagree" that "international corporations should be able to control their employee's lives" a numerical result might put me at dead center--but it's not real nuanced;
Agreed. It comes from trying to condense numerous variables onto two axes. It also makes it a manageable model. No-one wants to sit a 1000 question test.
3) they didn't ask one of the most important questions: "Do you think that any poll which pretends to have the wisdom to properly weight and evaluate responses to flawed quesions can possibly be useful?"
Quite what has that got to do with your political viewpoint?
Still, it was fun taking. It didn't cost me anything.
Exactly. All models have flaws, but without a model, there'd be no result. You think it's a worse model than I do. The thing I most dislike is their attatchment of left and right to economic positions. I really see "left" or "right" more in political terms than economic; furthermore, I see the natural implications of those political positions as being the opposite economics to that which is labelled!
Errrmmmm... looking at it from over here, it's more the policy of the British government of 1945-51 which brought us such useful things as old age pensions and the National Health Service which are still going strong. Seeing as this is a political test, of course the questions are going to relate to various political positions - one may or may not be aware that that is what it's doing, but that is more a question of how much one know's oneself.
But "to each acoording to his ability..." is a virtually verbatim recitation of early Soviet philosophy. That use could not have been accidental. If they meant "socially responsible government" they could have worded it "Everyone should contribute all they can to society, and society should see to people's needs."
3) they didn't ask one of the most important questions: "Do you think that any poll which pretends to have the wisdom to properly weight and evaluate responses to flawed quesions can possibly be useful?"
Quite what has that got to do with your political viewpoint?
I'm being sarcastic. I'm doubting their ability to discern my real political viewpoint with their poll. They labeled me a virtually perfect Centrist (I was off one axis by about a quarter of a point, I was dead center on the other). But I'm a person who tries to understand (whether or not I agree) with both sides of an issue, and who has strong opinions on many controversial subjects, but sometimes my agreements are on the left and sometimes they're on the right, or more "libertarian" or more "authoritarian."
Exactly. All models have flaws, but without a model, there'd be no result. You think it's a worse model than I do.
I don't think the model is as bad as the fact that we can't see their means of evaulation. What makes them think Saddam is so far to the left? Make a list of his actions those of a quasi-religious dictator instead of a quasi-socialist and you could just as easily place him on the right. Truth is, he might be the ideal authoritarian centrist, he's impartially in favor of himself and his cronies.
I really see "left" or "right" more in political terms than economic;
That's your perspective, but to me, "left" and "right" for the last century has been more distinguishable in economics than in social policy: "Left" is a planned economy, "right" a market one.
And then there's the proposition that underlay the terrific movie The Manchurian Candidate: that the extreme right and the extreme left are, for most purposes, indistinguishable.
The answer: Nothing!!
However, currently in Maryland you are not allowed to be a Liberal Republican in the Party, since the Republican Party seems to be hijacked by its right wing. This, however may change, but I may be be around for it.
A Conservative Democrat, by the way is a Democrat who believes that you cannot solve a problem by throwing money at it.
I really do not think that that was their intent. Okay, the quote is directly taken from Marx, but, as you might have noticed from some of the spellings, it is a British site, and therefore those words will be more associated with Labour Governments, particularly that of Attlee (which bandied it about a bit too much) than with actual Communism. Tony Blair definitely isn't a Communist, but you'll find that quote in at least one of the Labour manifestos since he was leader.
What makes them think Saddam is so far to the left?
It's because of their dumb definition of "left" as an economic thing.
That's your perspective, but to me, "left" and "right" for the last century has been more distinguishable in economics than in social policy: "Left" is a planned economy, "right" a market one.
No, no, no. Economic policy has been a matter of concensus between left and right from the 1940's to the 1980's. The so-called New Right of the 1980's hijacked an extremely left wing form of economics (that of 19th Century Whiggery). The real differences between a left wing government (e.g. Attlee, Wilson, Callaghan) and a right wing one (e.g. Churchill, Eden, MacMillan, Douglas-Home, Heath) lay much more with policies on social and foreign policy issues.
If you look at politics since the 1980's, the Whigonomics has crossed the political spectrum (the supposedly left-wing Labour Party was ironically the last to abandon traditional paternalistic conservative economics, part of the reason for the confusion about which way is left and which right) and once more it is social and foreign policy that differentiates left from right.
My personal opinion is that the economics of the so-called "post-war consensus" (which really started much earlier - again it's the Labour Party trying to take credit for everything) formed a much better basis for how to run Britain. Unfortunately, we are now back on the economics of the South Sea Bubble.
Left and right still mean something economically in the US--this is probably why so many here consider libertarians rightists when I would say they are to the classical left (but certainly the not the "New Left.") U.S. "liberal" has changed at least twice since I was a kid.
An interesting thing is the party alignments. The Republican Party has become associated with policy, and the Democratic Party with constituencies. In a sense you could say the Democrats have become more "European" in coalition-building, though they mostly have to do it internally. But to a lot of the electorate this translates to having few core principles and as a result, polls show that voters believe Republicans are more likely to do what they say they will do, even if the voters don't like what that is.
BTW, the Sadddam thing shows the problems of modern use of "left-right." I suppose they placed him on the left because the government controlled the economy, but if he were a true socialist, the benefits (and the misery) would have been more evenly divided across the country--instead he had more of a Feudal society, based on tribal loyalties. If your surname was al-Tikriti, you were a lot more equal than everyone else.
Just about where Mohatma Gandhi is on the graph.
-Broadway Buffer
-Broadway Buffer
A big thanks as well to Mike Hanna, Bill Wall, Tony, and everyone else who "makes these trip go." The entire ride was a treat.
Jeremy
Approaching Sutter Avenue
At Livonia Avenue
Regards,
T. Logan
TransiTALK Transportation Media Group
Freight train pulled by UFO for an hour
Next stop, 76 St, watch the closing time/space portal, please ...
Sighted at Stamford MNRR-
Small, compact (the size of an aem7) with slightly SLANTED front
and back tips, silver/blue top engine pulling about 8-10 Amtrak
Metroliner and/or (turquoise striped) CoachClass cars.
Engine was only at the NORTH end of the train... NOT an ACELA.
Sighted at Newark NJT
Small, silver/purple topped engine leading about 6 NJT MU Commuter Cars..
Engine had Pantograph top and appeared to have dark tinted windows
in the operating car... Engine was only at the HEAD end of train.
Was running on NJT Coast Line (Newark to NY (conn).)
NAME THAT ENGINE please, brah!
That sounds like an ALP-46 engine, which is *very* common to see on the Coast Line, and the Morristown Line 7 days a week. On weekdays, they can also be seen on NJT Northeast Corridor trains as well as on the Montclair Line. In addition, it is common to see Amtrak using a few of them as well.
Also, with the exception of one consist on the Raritan Valley Line (which is strictly diesel) during the wintertime, you will only see *ONE* engine on any given NJT consist.
HHP-8?
Sighted at Newark NJT
Small, silver/purple topped engine leading about 6 NJT MU Commuter Cars..
Engine had Pantograph top and appeared to have dark tinted windows
in the operating car... Engine was only at the HEAD end of train.
Was running on NJT Coast Line (Newark to NY (conn).)
ALP-46
example of HHP-8
U guys really R da best... my Q answered.
FWIW, sightings were on Sun Dec 28 at Newark 445pm
and at Stamford CT at 755pm..
I really like your maps. I'd like to make maps too.
Here is the challenge to you and all SubTalkers:
1) Please post your latest NYC Subway Map in MS Paint format.
2) Once the file is posted, each SubTalker has one week to take this file and update it to reflect their ideal NYC subway system including extensions, new lines, new stations, etc...
3) At the end of the week, SubTalk will vote on the best map using the following criteria:
- If the lines and stations existed, the map looks like how a real MTA map would look
- The new station and lines are an improvement over the current stations and lines in that they would increase revenues and other soft benefits (such as increased property value so an increase in property tax) more than they would increase cost to maintain and other soft negatives (such as increased crime) - (construction and start-up costs do not figure)
I really like your maps. I'd like to make maps too.
Here is the challenge to you and all SubTalkers:
1) Please post your latest NYC Subway Map in MS Paint format.
2) Once the file is posted, each SubTalker has one week to take this file and update it to reflect their ideal NYC subway system including extensions, new lines, new stations, etc...
3) At the end of the week, SubTalk will vote on the best map using the following criteria:
- If the lines and stations existed, the map looks like how a real MTA map would look
- The new station and lines are an improvement over the current stations and lines in that they would increase revenues and other soft benefits (such as increased property value so an increase in property tax) more than they would increase cost to maintain and other soft negatives (such as increased crime) - (construction and start-up costs do not figure)
http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/fantasy/yourmap.gif
Michael Calcagno
My latest map is here on this site! The blank (base) map I've provided for others to design their own routing is still here on this site.
My fantasy subway map is already here since late 1990's (with alot of help from SubTalkers)
Look forward seeing your map (and others), please post it here for all of us to enjoy!
Michael Calcagno
John
AC, I am not sure why you asked Michael to post a map in Paint format. (You said MS, I use Corel. Either way.)
It is very easy to make a Paint document out of anything on your screen. You can just take a screen shot, then paste into a Paint document. To do a large image like the Calcagno subway map, it is best to do it in segments -- it's easy to align the pieces perfectly later on.
If your fantasy map applies to only one section of the subway, then you need to copy only that segment of the map. That is what I have done.
To see my fantasy map, showing extensions on the 7, R, F, V, E, and J trains in Queens, please click here.
Ferdinand Cesarano
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=641471
If construction and start-up costs are ignored, the set of potential subway extensions meeting your criteria is practically infinite.
Through the coverage of the "new child abduction scare" where stories like Elizabeth Smart dominated headlines for months at a time - nevermind the fact that child abductions and general crime nationwide is lower then it has been in years.
The cryout of how poor and unsafe public schooling is, as if public schools are on the verge of collapse, throughout the recent wave of school shootings. Sure - school shootings may have been more uncommon several years ago, but it doesn't mean its more violent now. In the south, numerous schools were... BLOWN UP .. in the 1960's due to racism and the civil rights movements. That's right, blown up, bombed. Not just a school shooting.. Yeah, it really is horrible now, isn't it?
The media always seem to manipulate the facts rather then present them...
I invite you to view the website I loaded them into. Comments are most welcome, as this took a LONG time to do. They are organized by tower/freight house, and stations by branch. Once in the site, click on the thumbnails to see each branch's album.
Enjoy!
LIRR stations, towers, and freight houses
Here's a sample:
Click:
Also, is this thing at the Bayside station a tower, or a substation?
I think the 2nd pic is a substation. The substations that I know of, or suspect to be substations are at PW yard, Bayside(that pic that you have) and Shea
And here is the tower
Harold is still there, right by Sunnyside.
Also, you need to remember that the current names (or even 1950;s names) are not the telegraph call codes/names that existed back in 1911.
Remind me on Jan 5th to get you the exact info on which tower was which. It is all in Triumph V.
BTW, where is BROOK and LEAD?
As for LEAD and BROOK. Why don't you guess.
Here are some pics.
As for Hooping at Patchogue, I do think they do it whether there is trackwork or not (not 100%) sure though. EVery time I have been there I have seen them hoop, if a train went east of Patchogue. I think the line east of Patchogue is still run on train orders.
I guess the LIRR figures if it ain't broke, why spend the money to fix it
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/SUBWAYS/pwbranch2/pwbranch2.html
I particularly like the City Zone section .
Are those all the remaining towers on LI ? What others have been removed besides Fremont and Ozone ?
Was there ever a tower at KO , or is that just an "interlocking" ?
CG
Clickable:
Clickable:
Brookhaven Hamlet's abandoned station site
Cold Spring Harbour, Mineola, and Syosett action shots to the Port Jefferson Album:
Jamaica Platform shot, Kew Gardens action shot, Forest Hills Action shot, Flatbush line portal to the City Zone album:
Abandoned Platforms at Hewlett and Rosedale action to the far Rockaway Album:
Bellerose Action to the Hempstead Branch Album
Babylon and Massapequa Action to the Babylon Branch
And also some historic photos Courtesy of Dave Keller:
Patchogue 1924
Fremont Tower (what a sad fate that tower had, compare with the "after" photos!)
Pond Tower
Great River Historic shot(razed 1997)
I knew about Deer Park, but I'm suprised about all the others. What are the locations of the now abandonned stations on the main.
So, any tips you experienced photographer could pass along would be greatly appreciated. The camera is 5.0 megapixels and also does video. I'm sure a lot of it is our just getting used to the camera, but the pictures have seemed to be somewhat lacking in color intensity. Haven't used it outdoors yet, so maybe the indoor lighting has something to do with it.
The specific question that comes to mind is should I set the ISO to 100 or 200 or leave it on auto. The same for the flash, should I leave it on auto? I remember a post awhile back where someone said that turning off the flash is best as the camera will make the best use of available light (in indoor or subway shots).
Feel free to email me if you would like.
Thanks
The sensors will take care of it.
Also, there should be some way of adjusting the sharpness.
Color can also be adjusted. All you need to do is find the function that does that.
What model is it?
My camera is 3.3 mps. and the pics come out very clear.
The use of flash depends on the situation. If there is not a lot of available light then shots w/o flash are best made with a tripod. This is because the camera must take a longer exposure which can lead to "camera shake". If you're photographing people in every day situations then flash is fine. Certain artistic situations (say a wide angle shot of the Grand Central Mezzanine) would lend themselves to not using flash, however I wouldn't worry about that right now on the outset.
You also mentioned the lack of color intensity. It's hard to comment on this without an example and knowing what model of camera you have...but a lot of digital cameras have settings that allow you to adjust contrast, saturation and sharpness. Feel free to e-mail me rgrech@nyc.rr.com if you'd like to discuss further.
Good luck!
Someone mentioned noise in raising ISO, it really depends on what kind of camera you have. Typically lower end digital cameras create a heck of a lot more noise in high ISO's than the more higher end cameras.
I never mess with the video function of video cameras, its really pointless, unless you really like bad quality and or short (few second) 320x240 clips.
Hope this information helps you.
I usually leave it on Auto, but in really good light you SHOULD set it to 100. I just usually forget.
The same for the flash, should I leave it on auto?
TURN IT OFF!! ALWAYS!!! The flash will always go off in the worst possible occacion...often when it isn't even necessary. When you are trying not to attract police attention turn it off and leave it what way.
Also, most digital cameras have a perceived lag b/t hitting the shutter and taking the pic. This is because the camera is auto-focusing first. You need to learn to apply the half-pressure on the shutter to focus and then keep it that way until you are ready to shoot. You should also get some practice taking long exposures. You can handhold down to about 1/13th, under that try to learn bracing the camera on solid objects. You can also play around with the sutter priority function. Remember, because its digital you can play around and get instant feedback.
Also turn the beeps off. Oh, if you camera has a viewfinder and an LCD, use the LCD, the viewfinder is usually not WUSIWUG.
I'm writing an article for amNewYork about the demise of the token and was hoping someone could remember accurately for me what kinds of foreign coins were popular as cheaper replacements for the token through the years. I know that some coins -- that cost pennies compared to the price of the token itself -- were used, but can't remember which ones Anyone remember? (I'm writing for this afternoon). Thanks much.
-- Joe Rappaport
And there were also many employees passes that were reported stolen during the year. By this time of the year the monthly list of reported stolen passes would come out with something like 4-6 columns of at least 50 (maybe 100) or so reported stolen pass numbers on BOTH sides of the bulletin. And we were expected to check the list against the pass they showed before letting someone we didn't know come into the booth to relieve us.
IIRC there were only 3 types of student flash passes. S passes that were only good on the buses. R passes that were good only on the trains and C passes that were good on both bus and subway.
But yeah, I could definitely picture some jamoke melting solder and filling the holes. It's amazing the sheer amount of work some folks will go to (and expense) to "get over." Heh.
I'm not surprised at the sheer amount of work some folks will go to (and expense) to "get over." I was going to Staten Island one day years ago via ferry. I was surprised by the number of people who didn't want to pay 25 cents to get the ferry.
And yes my mike was on I didn't hear you completely.
Correct. They cost 17.5 cents each ($1.75 for a roll of ten), which was quite a savings over the regular subway token price. The practice ended when Connecticut abolished tolls around 1984.
It's been rumored that Necco candy wafers can pass as quarters in some older vending machines.
For the poll to mean anything, DON'T answer with what you think Goetz should have done. DON'T try to imagine you are Goetz. YOU are YOU. Try to imagine how you might really respond in such a situation, which was pretty realistic if your were riding the subways in the '80s.
ASSUME that the youths (which in your imagination can be any race) are threatening, which is what most people (black and white) at the time thought, whether or not they approved of Goetz's response.
You have the opportunity to give a volunteered response and/or leave comments to clarify your response. I will remove any text responses or comments which I consider inflamatory.
If they try to harm me or someone else, I would blow their asses away.
Well, you either have to substitute some other ability to harm the people accosting you (a black-belt in karate, maybe?), or pick a non-violent response, or write your own "other" response.
If you are absolutely defenseless against a potential mugger, then it is an entirely different question. Likewise, a current option would be "dial 911 on your cell," but that would also be a totally different situation (plus that might encourage them to grab your phone, or suppose this showed your intent to resist, but you couldn't make the connection, thereby angering the youths--remember this was in an era when non-resisting people in muggings were shot for not giving up the goods fast enough. The variants go on and on)
Possession of a black belt - unless it's in BJJ or, arguably, Judo - means almost nothing nowadays, what with the plethora of "McDojos" which award them to just about anyone who pays enough regardless of skill. Karate and especially Tae Kwon Do schools are the worst in this regard. There are cases of five-year-old children being awarded black belts.
You're correct in thinking "im thinkin theres quite a bit more....."
Because there was.
Douce Man: I would take a look at some of the U/O's (unusual occurances) that happened the day before. You're correct in thinking "im thinkin there's quite a bit more....." Because there was.
Not such U/O's then, are they? It becomes fairly routine at some point...
D line at 7th Ave, jumper not badly injured.
#3 Line at 110th St, jump or fell - lost a leg
#1 Line at Christopher St. Jumped - successfully
Dying or getting killed in the city is not news.
Elias
Related story...I had to report lost property on Easter, and was in the TB police district, when a report of a man under came over their radio. The Sgt. there looked at the officer next to him, and one of them mentioned, being a Holiday, it was most likely a jumper. Sure enough, minutes later, a phone call from an officer at the scene, having spoke to witnesses, confirmed "He wanted to go". And he did, DOA, with no mention the next day, to my knowledge. (radio, TV, or paper)
Anyhow, is the problem happening on every route or just one? If it's just one or two, i'd reinstall the route.
http://copper.takiweb.com/~ntwrkguy/motormanforum/showthread.php?s=47c60f83b1d01e31759fda14ff87d199&threadid=350
I do have a BVE problem with the "F" Train that I will ask as a separate thread to avoid confusion.
Otherwise there beautiful 'Chris Rock'
But yeah, there's plenty of folks here who still have their badges.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I was listening to the local all news radio station which is mostly live feeds from the Associated Press. Yesterday, the AP ran an item saying how quiet cars were coming to the DC MetroRail and all the usual rules: no cell phones or loud conversation.
WRONG SYSTEM!!!
They also said it had been done on a trial basis since January, meaning they meant to say it was MARC Rail that was getting quiet cars on all the trains, not WMATA's MetroRail.
Happy new year to all of you!
Being the fact that the SIRR used to be at grade level before it became open cut, was there always a ditch where the line now runs between Grant City and Bay Terrace?
The entire line is not open cut. Much of the line acts like an elevated if you can call it that.
Good Info:
Long road to rail will finally end
Here are some answers for riders and motorists
The opponents are insane. The expensive toy is that thing they have in the driveway called a car. Houston has the worse air polution in the country and they STILL want to build more highways!
This is what happens folks when people become accustomed to driving everywhere and have not ridden a tain in their lives. There will never be enough highways to satisfy the motorist so if they don't or can't use the lightrail, they will simply have to sit in traffic.
The Houston voter won this battle.
It's funny how the people who make up the opposition, are sprawl developers. People rich off their a$$'s and who don't commute to a normal place of work or sit in traffic most likely. People who shouldn't really ahve a say, since it won't impact them negatively or positively(read what they want to do in phoenix, or even minneapolis).
I'd be curious to know how many new houses are equal to a new lane of road. I'd guess-tamate 1000.
This Is What I Live For...
It seems that NJT simulations is being ramped up in preparations for the full dress rehearsal, and then the real thing in February.
The stations are almost [about 95%] finished. The closed-circuit TV cameras have been installed, Electronic screens are installed, and the stumps where the ticket machines will be installed are in place. It looks like they will be in place during the month of January. At Camden, the West Headhouse at Broadway is just about finished, with only the ticket machines left to be installed.
Finally, it seems that the River Line will be a reality when February 15 comes around.
I expect to be out on Sunday taking photos.
So does Jersey Mike...you remember Jersey Mike - he's the one who talked nonstop all the way from 8th & Market to Collingswood after we all rode the last train out of old Frankford Terminal.
I can't remember if he told me they stored it at Great Neck or at Port Washington. Did anyone here ever see/hear about it? If so, do you know what the consist was?
Chartered an entire Amtrak train to attend a Mets game ? Sounds like that guy must be rich !
Bill "Newkirk"
www.forgotten-ny.com
Of course, there was in fact a Turboliner test run to Port Jeff in 1991 testing the feasibility of through LI service. It flunked. The Turboliner was down to 6 MPH in the East River tunnel, which is why E60's always hauled them to SSY.
They have a very modern look to them, and look a lot better than those POS LIRR locomotives that pull the C3's.
Is there something about them that I don't know about?
WADR, you are not correct. There is no 24-hour service on the West Hempstead, Oyster Bay, Greenport or Montauk branches, nor on the Port Jefferson Branch east of Huntington. That is why I asked “the diesel lines?” because I was hoping to not get an incorrect answer (against hope, as I see).
ALl the lines mentioned don't have that great headways even during the day, of course they are going to be reduced at night.
#3 West End Jeff
Compared to 260,000 for an F40 or comparable Geep.
the slow acceleration is only in 0>5 mph zone, cause when terbo kicks in this puppy out runs a pair of FL-9's any day.
Stop recovery is one of the most important statistics. GE's also are slow to load any time the throttle is comming out of coast. If your experiances are anything like what I observed on the inland route, you put it in 8 and weight. Those damn P40's with TWO cars couldn't even come to the equal of an F40 with 3 in terms of quick acceleration. Gearing them back to 103 would also help with the acceleration problem. Anyway, by the time your GE units are ready to "outrun" the FL-9's the FL-9's are way down the track at the 50 or 60 MAS and braking for the next station stop. In short station distance commuter service acceleration frop stop is key. Now of course, to make it fair you should be racing a pair of FL-9's or one of those 3000 hp rebuilds.
sound ??? 4 stroke vs two stroke do I say more.
Yeah, the two stroke is better. The old 567 sounds like a cross between an old submarine and a lawn mower. Really cool. The 645 just sounds like a jet. Whatever GE puts in their sounds like some piece of crap you'd find in a truck.
poor engineers vision lines ??? I can see 30 feet closer to nose from regular seating condition and can see way more than an FL-9 with controlstand speedometer and radio in the way.
But you also have that huge pylon cutting out your forward lateral vision. This creates a huge blind spot just where trackside idiots would emerge to dash in front of your train. On both the FL-9 and F40 the side window meets right up against the front window providing a wider unobstructed field of vision. BTW, you actually LIKE the desk controls??? Most engineers I have talked with prefer concole. CNIC has specificed that all future orders of wide cabs will have consoles instead of desks due to crew complaints.
You're starting from a station stop and someone darts in front. You're in a yard and a careless worker steps out. A vehicle is headed toward you, an adjacent car is going to foul the track, someone runs up and tries to give you a hand signal... I don't know about you, but I think that blind spots are worse than having a full field of vision.
a person or car would be a splat on side of locomotive other than if I did under 10 mph, which we hardly do with passenger locomotives.
So passenger trains never make station stops where crazy commuters are running around trying to catch their trains? Or maybe you instantly go from 0 to 10 when starting.
ask the NJT engineer killed behind the AAR controlstand a few years back how he likes them. with controll stand next to you you can't get out, but desktop you just turn and step back.
Well golly gee, let's fit trains with ejection seats too. Enjoy your repeditive stress injuries.
as for desk type controls we are talking a passenger unit here, no switching or looking back.
Yeah, you never need to ever do yard work, the magical yard ferries make up your train for you.
as far as comparing FL-9's vs Genesis how many times did you operate either one of them???
So the laws of physics are different in the front of the train than the rear? The cab accelerates faster than every other part of the locomotive??
(3) Locomotives without corner stairway openings may not be used to
perform any switching service after September 30, 1979 except passenger car switching service at passenger stations.
Check out this baby.
Lipstick on a pig. The right paint can really serve to de-emphasisze that ugly mug.
The F40's had the same problem...so did the AEM-7's to an extent. The old cab units have timless good looks, that's a given, but that dosen't mean you can't make a cowl unit look good.
The old cab units have timless good looks, that's a given
You got that right!
I don't find your example of a properly painted Gennie attractive. Of course, I come from an era when passenger units, even without a thoughtful paint job, were beautiful, and freight units were also pleasing to the eye.
Cruise ships are the same way. The bow used to be smoothly curved and long, but now they just crunch the aluminum once and dump it in the water with a motel on top. Just a couple more folds and putting the lights, fender, windshields and blades someplace where they might have emphasized the aerodynamics of the lines could have made it at least a Toyota Prius, but, no. They had to go out of their way to make a big fat Yugo.
We had Meatballs, why not Dustbuster?
I like them, and not counting this thread (which I haven't entirely read yet) I haven't read of anyone here disliking them.
You know Sega came up with a portable Genesis, called the Nomad.
Ah, I never liked Phil Collins' stuff...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Regards,
Jimmy
I think it has two fans. Both are on the top of the engine.
: )-
(even moreso, the FL-9 in the NH McGiness colors)
Amtrak 'Pennsylvanian'
leaving 30th Street
wayne
Trains being re-routed is not a shut down of the subway, the trains are still moving. Otherwise it is a "suspension of service". Was this in both directions, or only one? One would indicate something on the track, both directions would indicate something in the station itself ("Police activity" maybe), or removal of power on all tracks in the area.
I met Jersey Mike at the PATCO Woodcrest station where we planned to meet Pigs and Doobie (Sir Ronald). Pigs arrived on time and said Chapter 11 overslept and would arrive by Amtrak. We took PATCO to 8th & Market and walked throuth the Gallery to Market East where we met Isaac Shomer, R6, and Chuck Greene, who was surprisingly awake after doing the MOD trip on Sunday. Brian showed up a couple minutes later and we embarked on schedule, taking the Market St subway from 11th to 30th and the route 36 subway-surface to the Island Ave loop.
From there we walked to the R1 Essington station. This is where the bitching occurred. It was a relatively long walk, and the three bus fans in the group told us how we should have gone.
The train to Warminster took us past the Roberts Maintenance Facility, where a Reading Blueliner still resides.
Upon arrival in Warminster, we saw SEPTA BL15 #50 coupled to SEPTA AEM7 #2302 and a string of Bombardier coaches. Brian and I walked around the long way to photograph the front of #50 while the others looked for a restaurant.
It was then that I got a phone call summoning me home while Brian got a call telling us that the group found a pizzeria. After lunch, we hit our usual bit of traditional SEPTA mid-winter trip luck. The train that would return us to Philly was all Silverliner II's, including the catenary inspection car, which is also used in passenger service, and #218, which still has "YLVANIA" on one side only, left over from the car's PRR origin. The group took that train to Fern Rock for the rest of the excursion, and I stayed on to Market East and home on PATCO.
Chuck Greene
Been there, done that...nothing conclusive enough to push it either way.
If you are real brave and don't want to get caught by cops, bring a jackhammer or shovel or pick and start digging. You never know what ancient relics you'll find. Perhaps this could be a SubTalk field trip!
Ummm...yeah...lemme know when you get the construction permit for that...
That 76th Street may exist is not a hypothesis put worth using any rationality or logic, it therefore cannot be reasonably proved and does not exist.
I think that neither exist, but I do not see how anyone would experience any kind of wholeness in their life, or any kind of spiritual enlightenment from a mythical subway station.
Actually you have never seen Tunnel Rat alias Steve Krokowski post because he has never had a computer and it seems like he will never get one!! The one post about 76th Street that he wrote was given to Doug BMT Man who posted it for him on SubTalk.
Since Mr. Krokowski only verbalizes his story, does not supply names, dates, or any other firm data, we must presume that he is "making it up", which is different than an outright lie.
Subway stations are not tiny things that can be tossed out.
Anything under the surface in a city has to have been documented somewhere, as everything man builds has to be maintaned sooner or later.
That being said, every city has BIG things built underground that "disappear". 70 or 80 years after the undergound item stops being used, it tends to vanish from everyday life.
Take cable car infrastructure, like the vaults that house sheaves. When the cable is replaced by electric cars, the conduit gets ripped out, usually because of the increased weight of the larger electric cars.
In Baltimore the vaults are usually disovered during street reconstrutions. The contractors break into this large brick & iron "hole" and the local streetcar musuem library get a call. We have the 90% of the drawings for Baltimore's 1890 cable era.
Everyone else forgot.
So, if 76th Street was built, somewhere the drawings exist. If it's under the street, somebody has a drawing or plat some where.
All you have to do is find those drawings.
But there is not sufficient evidence for it existing, all of this evidence is either fabricated, irrelevant or more than one person removed. I don't choose to close my ears whenever I hear something that proves that 76th Street exists, I listen. I have seen nothing that would change my mind.
As for tunnelrat, I have never heard from him here, but I have heard from other posters here that his accounts are not reliable. So just because you tell me that he told you about 4 police officers who have given the same accounts of it, means nothing.
He never told you about other police officers he's spoken to who have declared that it doesn't exist. And if 4 people describe an abandoned station as looking the same is no big deal. He never told you about any characteristics that could make it unique which would make such accounts valuable.
You on the other hand, want to believe everything at all and completely shut yourself down whenever you see anything like this. You seem to choose not to listen to anything and say "Screw you, it exists, don't care, no, you're wrong, I'm right."
We already see who is right, only if you want to look at the evidence critically, instead of believing everything some crackpot says.
Utilities are using these gizmos to look for water & sewer pipes, buried electric and data cables and almost everything else under the surface.
Somebody who posts here (from the greater NYC area, since I'm in Baltimore) could have a contact in the NYC utility and tel companies or know somebody who does.
Get the gizmo (it's got a real name, but I forget) and go out to 76th.
If something like the shell of a station shows up, it's there.
If nothing big shows up, it's not there.
If the remains of something as big as a station shell shows up, then Joe Brennen's April fool joke was really true and 76th was built and then destroyed. That seems unlikely, but we are talking about New York city's railroad, and strange things do happen in Gotham.
On that vein, in Brooklyn a guy named Bob Diamond laid streetcar track in the street. Things happened, and the city tore them up. 20 years from know some guy will swear that streetcar track was being laid in Brooklyn in 1999.
And somebody will know "the rest of the story".
What I was talking about is a device used by utility and communcations companies to locate cables and things underground. They come in very handy to locate buried cables and other underground things.
One of these devices (no atomics involved) could be used to settle the 76th Street question.
But yeah, I think we're talking about the same thing here ...
Arnine MOD Trip Photos Day 1
The MOD Train Poses Beautifully at Broadway For the Picture Takers
The MOD Train Poses Beautifully at Broadway For the Picture Takers Part 2
The MOD Train Poses Beautifully at Broadway For the Picture Takers Part 3
A Low Shot of 100 at Rock Park
5228 and 5229 are the ONLY Stainless Steel sided R-44
s in the New York City Subway (excluding S.I.)
MOD Trip Personal Having Watched Subtalk Pull a 76 Street Gag on Car 1575 (I heard about people "denting the door")
The MOD Train Poses at Astoria Blvd Middle Track
An R-44 Displays the Blue K For the Railfans
The Light During the Sunset Bounces Right off the Front End Rollsign Making it Impossible to See
The Sun Cuts a Shuttle Entering Rock Park in Half
An R-44 Displays the Brown Diamond R (aka the Bankers Special)
The MOD Train Coming off the Smith-9th Street Curve at Sunset
The MOD Train Even Closer at Smith-9th Street During the Sunset
The MOD at its Closest at Smith-9th Street during the Sunset
A Floor Shot of the MOD Train Entering Smith-9th Street With the Sunset
Taking a Quick Pic of this Opp With Bad Zoom = This Pic
The MOD Train Entering Rockaway Park From It's Rest (No I didn't Lose My Hand)
An R-44 Front End Display Shows up on the JFK Express
5528 Displays Long Island Railroad for Hungry Railfans
A Low Shot of Front Half of the MOD Train on the Rockaway Park Layup Track
A Low Shot of the MOD Train at Rockaway Park
People Rushing to get back on the train after it blows its Horn Twice
A Pic of an R-32 F at Smith 9th Street with the Sunset Glow off the Steel
The Sunlight Lights up the MOD Train Well at Rockaway Park
The MOD Train and a Rockaway Shuttle Lay Up Side By Side
A Low Shot of the MOD Train and a Rockaway Shuttle Lay Up Side By Side
Two R-44's Pose at Rockaway Park in the Sunset
A Picture of the Snowblower Train at Rockaway Park
The R-44 S Train Poses Mighty for the Camera
The 2nd Best Shot of the Day: A G Train Entering Smith-9th Street
Sun Setting Over 484 and the HH Sign
A W train Leaving Broadway
An R-44 Displays a Yellow D For Us Railbuff's Delight
Arnine MOD Trip Photos Day 2
484 Poses at 1st Avenue
484 Poses Nicely at 8th Avenue
An R-62 Above the MOD Train Part 1
An R-62 Above the MOD Train Part 2
100 Posing at Carnarsie Terminal
100 gets a glossy look when directly under the sun
100's future is Clearly Seen in this Pic (unless you can stop it)
MOD Train Sits on the Northbound Track at 111 Street While the Sun Sets
With Emphesis on the Sunset Sky the MOD Train Gets Blurred
The MOD Train Sitting on the 111 Street Curve
MOD Train Approaching 111 Street on J2 track
484 Basking in the Sun at 111 Street
Train 484 On J2 Track with the Sunset Sky Reflecting off the Glass
100 Posing at 111 Street
An R-143 and an R-62 Pose in the Same Pic
A Picture of the Crimson Sky over East New York
The Demotion of the Old Elevated which the L Was on Continues
Two 3 Trains One Going to and One Coming from Pennsylvannia Avenue Pose for a Pic
The Last Pic of the day of the Sunset Sky
The MOD Train Side by Side With a Graveyard (future?)
A J Train Stands Side by Side with the MOD Train
Blur Effect J Train Entering 111 Street While 100 Stands Still (No Photoshop Effect)
A Pic of an R-143 Train at Livonia Avenue
MOD Train Leaving 111 Street Northbound
A Pair Of 42's Signed up as a Diamond Q
2 R-143 Trains Resting under the sun at Carnarsie Yard
Looking down the platform at 8th Avenue with 484 Posing
484 going over the Switch at 111 Street with a Crimson Sky Background
Look at the Dust/Smoke/Haze near the headlights in this Pic
100 Posing with a Tree at Wilson Avenue
The MOD Train Entering Marcy Avenue
The MOD Train coming off the Willy B Approach
100 Resting at Wilson Avenue
Z Not In Service J oh My Posing at ENY Yard
Bonus Arnine MOD Trip Photos
A 3 Train Heads towards the Pennsylvannia Avenue Station
Ground Shot of 484
Floor Shot of 484
100 Posing under a Bright Sun at Atlantic Avenue
Another Pic of the Future of 100 and Company
E Train to 179 Street Lives on, in the Rollsign of Car 401
Car 484 and Company Near Broadway and the T/O looking at us
a Picture of 401 and 1575 Coupled Together (Guess Who's that Man)
A Picture of the Atlantic Avenue Demolition
484 Sits Under the Sun While the Crowd Enjoy's it
An R-143 Train End Car 8201 Entering Broadway Junction
484 Looking Sharp and Dark as it sits in the Shade at Marcy Avenue
Railfan Photographers Taking Photos of the MOD Train as it Rests on Rockaway Park Layup Track
100 Resting on the Northbound Platform at Astoria Blvd
Car 100 With the Graveyard in the Background
Only a Few People Will Get This Joke
til next time
I can't believe how many of them came out with me in them :)
--Mark
Regards,
Jimmy
THE 7TH AVENUE SUBWAY IS DOWN
1 2 3 9
THE STAIRS BEHIND YOU
or something very foolish like that. Same thing for the 8th avenue line.
you gotta "f" when you say it.
Hey, they put up a sign.
They're trying to run the three dozen holiday G/O's on the 7 by passing out little flyers. Duh.
STATIONS CAN
CAUSE DELAY.
(Of course, you look up after it's shown "Belongings left on trains or at").
I thought photographing the subway and getting suspicous looks by NYPD was crazy but man...
avid
CJD is not always caused by eating beef with BSE prions. George Ballanchine died of CJD before there was such a thing as Mad Cow disease.
Killer Books
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
No.
#3 West End Jeff
And be sure and check in with the local police, tovaritsch.
All I could find was my 1994 edition of Ren and Stimpy, when Santa tries to gut them, stuff them and sell them as fluffy dolls for stealing everybody's naughty-and-nice files. Can't find Whizzing on the Electric Fence.
http://members.fortunecity.com/chippy3/songs/fence.html
Now that makes no sense. SUNY Stony Brook, a much larger campus than Old Westbury, has an entrance checkpoint only after midnight, whether or not classes are in session.
Next time I'll try to get a better view and get some shots from the pedestrian overpass.
Ignorantly, seeing the AirTrain running and stopping at Federal Circle, I thought it might be best to get off the bus right there instead of go into Terminal 4 and so I did. Unfortunately, I didn't realize that there's no walkway across the highway to get to the station and so upon a tip from two nearby workers, I walked all the way down next to the guard rail of one of the streets to a street I think is called 170th Place. Anyway, I ended up getting on at Station B, Lefferts Blvd.
I had lost so much time, and just missed an airport bound train so I waited and observed the station. It took the full 8 minutes for another train to come. And I took it to Terminal 1, figuring if I change trains there, I could sooner or later get a good look out the congested front window by the time the next train cleared Terminal 9. The next train was ALSO a Howard Beach train! I thought they'd be better than that. Jamaica train came in later and I took it all the way around the loop, to Jamaica, back to Terminal 4, where my trip ended. I wanted to go on the inside loop train, but time limited me. I saw every station though, except Howard Beach.
I noticed that when someone's suitcase got stuck between the doors as they were closing, it was holding the train's doors open even though the platform doors closed, the platform doors simply reopened automatically. I know there's nothing else you can do about that problem probably, especially without train crew, but that might end up causing delays everywhere if the trains get more congested.
So for those planning to see it for the first time:
1) As has been said before, don't board or exit AirTrain at Howard Beach or Jamaica if you don't have to in order to (LEGALLY) avoid paying fare.
2) Go in by bus, but take the bus all the way into the airport. Don't get off at Federal Circle. I got lost and AirTrains were floating everywhere. The walk to Lefferts Blvd is not comfortable and very long.
3) To get a front window, get on at Terminal 1. By the time you leave Terminals 8/9 the people that were there, if any, will probably have gotten off.
I took the 11:18 AM train from my home LIRR station and was at Terminal 8/9 by 11:55, which is pretty much as good as I'll do in my car (when you factor in the walk from the parking lot).
CG
http://copper.takiweb.com/~ntwrkguy/motormanforum/showthread.php?s=78eb70f42786c16760815828798a847e&threadid=412
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
But I don't want to trample toes if another Branfordite is already on the case ...
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
click on discussion forums and bve
Routes from all over the world get posted. A few of the asian routes are just plain addicitive in it's realism. There's some good euro ones too. Not to many locations in the us though(except for NY).
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
New York Post(al) article
Bummer, man! (Forgive me if someone has already posted this link.)
--Randy B.
I did think it was odd that the N was being sent to the rathole. Also, why swap the B and D in Brooklyn? Confusing!
--RB
N Broadway Line
Astoria - CityHall Station
All I read from the NY Post is Garfield. I prefer the Daily News and the NJ Star Ledger. While the Ledger has some newsworthy stuff, the News is about 50/50. But since all news is the same garbage about the war and mad-cow, all I read is the comics plus Gridlock Sam and the TV Guide. IMHO, people buy the post because they're CHEAP.
Regards,
Jimmy
Jimmy
I buy the Post for their Sports and for the Wonderword puzzle.
2. Stillwell will be 75% complete next summer, not fully reopen as the article claims.
3. If the D is an express in the Bronx for most of the day, how will the local stations be served? Another typical blunder by the NY Post.
DUH!!
Enjoy, and please leave any critiques, so that I may learn for the future. Thanks.
til next time
Good news by the way... I'm raising the Quota, so each photographer can post more pics!
Koi
The fuzziness could be from the fact that these are page-scanned matte-finish photos and I don't know what to do to make the resolution higher.
As for anything I learned, actually what I did was I studied many of the photographs on this site for at least three years, and found that of all of them, one photographer's style impressed me more than any other's.
His technique, whether intentional or not, is to include more than just the train itself in the photographs. He seems to capture an entire scene including some of the station "furniture," surrounding buildings, automobiles, a person here and there, and truly allows his pictures to have a "period value" that one can look back on and say "Hey, I remember that!" when looking at them.
I tried to emulate that style in a good number of the shots. Of the fifty or so shots I took, those were the best of the lot. One thing I hope to do is, in the future, to have less "waste" photographs that either came out terribly, or weren't very dynamic. I took about thirty-six shots between the R-1/9 trips and the Redbird trips of a couple of weeks ago, and am anxious to see the quality of these shots and post the best of those as well.
One of those fully automatic, one shutter-speed, battery operated cameras.
The other day, my uncle said he heard the entire lettering and numbering system of the subway will soon be changed, the most significant change in decades. Now, he's not a NYCTA insider, nor even really a railfan, so this isn't exactly from the horse's mouth, but I wondered...where did he hear this from? Is there any truth to this?
My guess is he saw the brochure with the Manhattan Bridge route changes, and made a little too much out of it. The main thing is that things are FINNALLY getting back to normal after an 18-year GO (so to speak.) And the Brooklyn (B) and (D) are swapping their traditional (post-Christie) routes. So the posters show what, six letters changing? Not an overhaul doth this make.
Is there anything else besides this?
:-) Andrew
Do yourself a favour and catch the train from Springfield or Albany.
Well not knowing exactly what exactly happened, but its extremly difficult to lose luggage especially on train travel. AirTravel is another story.
SEPTA Mid-Winter Trip PHOTOS by Sir Ronald of McDonald
But let me just add that a fun time was had by all, and a hearty thank you goes out to Jersey Mike for putting together the itinerary, accommodating special requests, and using the Mid-Winter Trip magic that allows us to always have good connections and ride interesting equipment.
Also thanks to everyone who showed up. It was a great group.
Take care, and see you again, soon.
Chuck Greene
I like those MFL walkway pics, that's awesome.
Thanks, I think it was Issac that pointed out the photo opportunity.
Happy New Year, everybody.
Chuck Greene
I like this photo:
but you need to learn how to turn off the flash in your camera for the underground shots!
Just a tip from your friendly neighborhood railfan photographer.
Here's a tip from another friendly neighborhood railfan photographer:
One of the greatest places (in my book) to get photos of trains is the North end of the Brooklyn Bridge-City Hall uptown platform. Specifically while the train is sitting. That way the T/O doesn't overshoot the platform. Besides that, it's not like on TV where those cartoons get dizzy from flash photography.
I know youre only 11, but in comp-speak RTFM!
They run some extra trains but not all night.
Can you please post up NJ Transit River Line brouchure on subtalk that you got from the take out on the HBLR.
I couldn't find any of the brouchures that you received at the NJ Transit Customer Service Center in Newark, Hoboken & New York & on the HBLR cars.
The people who do attack others are in absolutely NO position to do so. No one on this board can attack me. Why? Because they know nothing about me. Oh boo hoo if you hate the 6 train, or R142's and their announcements, because that's the worst thing that anyone here can say about me.
Please, CC, this is a family forum! ;-)
That is when you hold doors open and give us an audio tape of what you did to possibly cause injury to yourself or to your fellow customers. You deserve to be attacked for that stunt.
May I make it a suggestion if that happens again? Note the car number and the date/time/location you were at and report it to the 6 line superintendent. Thank you!
All it is is someone putting their hands to their ears and going "Meyah meyah meyah, I'm not listening" while they dance around the room. I don't fid that very mature or very constructive. Do you?
You have obviously never read RonInBayside's posts. If hounding or harrassing me, and resorting to backstabbing is justification to retaliate, then Jersey Mike and I were fully justified in attacking Ron.
I guess it's because I have the audacity to proclaim myself equal to other people instead of being a good Uncle Tom like he would prefer.
Yea, see how special you REALLY are if you try putting your knapsack on closing car doors when Mark W. is the C/R on the train you are on.
I'm sure the local supermarket will have a special meat section for your body parts.
But I agree with you on everything else. True railfans do not destroy transit property or distrupt service. Like I said, if he had a beef with the C/R's abrupt announcement, there there is the phone and the number to the 6 line superintendent OR a nice email to the MTA web site.
WHO WILL SURVIVE?
And what will be left of them.
In short, the handle is a reference to the glory days of my home line, the 6- Before it turned into crap, like it is today.
That's great, except you stole it from Laura.
Wheeeeee Go Go 5 Train on Strapcomplainers, once upon a time.
How should I know?
Da Hui
Chuck Greene
Seriously, Robert Shaw did pass away, in the late 70s or early 80s I think.
In the Battle of The Bulge he died when his tank exploded.
In From Russia With Love James bond strangled him on a train.
In Jaws he was eaten by a shark.
In The taking of Pelham 123 he was electricuted on the 3rd rail.
Did he ever make it to the end of any movie?
Specifically, I need to transfer there tonight, but I've never been in the are before. How far apart are the stations? Is it a reasonable walk? Is the neighborhood safe at 7pm?
Thanks,
--Steve
Thanks again,
--Steve
Just make sure that you are on the front 4 cars and exit with other people so you can safely walk there.
It certainly wasn't the prettiest out-of-system transfer I've made...
I'm sure that if you have to use this L to 3 line transfer again after sunset, you might need a machete.
The F is almost always given 7 minutes for both FH to Roosevelt and Roosevelt to Queensbridge and the E is very similar. I believe the V gains a number of seconds on the F because it takes 53rd while the F takes 63rd though I'm not sure.
:-) Andrew
That's 10 extra stops in 8 extra minutes. I don't find that too surprising considering that the F takes a short cut in Queens.
Don't believe me? Compare the A express to the (late night) A local. From top to bottom, the express saves about 10 minutes over the local. (For instance, compare the northbound A local that leaves Euclid on weekdays at 5:45 to its express follower at 5:57. The local reaches 207th at 6:58, three minutes before the express.)
Expresses seem to save a lot more time than they actually do.
Ten minutes on one trip isn't much.
But on a daily commute, ten mintues each way each day is a hell of a lot. Assuming eight hours sleep a night, it gains you the equivalent of more than two days a year. That's the way to look at time savings. It matters a great deal.
At the same time, someone who gives up a seat on the local to wait four minutes for a jam packed express that only saves four minutes to begin with has gained aching feet, not time. (Those who are under the misimpression that the express saves more time than it does make what turns out to be an irrational decision in the face of the facts.) And passengers waiting for the local also want to save those two days per year rather than standing around on the platform as express after express pass by.
The ridership numbers for local and nearby express stations imply that people are willing to sacrifice their feet and their time to ride an express.
Besides, that sort of behavior isn't found on every line -- it seems to be strongest on the IND. It certainly doesn't happen much on the West Side. When I get on the 1/9 at 86th in the morning rush, it's usually packed, except when it's met an express at 96th. Very few passengers get off at 72nd (and most of the ones waiting by the express side of the platform reluctantly get on), but if an express then pulls in, half the trainload jumps off. These are people who would prefer the express but are quite willing to take the local if they think it'll take them where they're going first.
I'm hoping that, when PA/CIS is finally implemented, the signs at each station will list not only estimates of when trains will reach that station but also estimates of when trains will reach other stations, further down the line. Rather than having to guess (incorrectly, in many cases) whether to wait for the express or stay on the local, passengers would be able to make informed decisions. (But I'm not optimistic.)
Or do you mean that express stations are busier than their local neighbors? Of course they are. Express rides aren't the big draw to local stations -- short waits are. (How often do you see local passengers here complain about how many stops the train makes? OTOH, how often do you see local passengers here complain that they had to stand in a dark, dingy, crowded station for a half hour as 19 expresses and a battery-running local passed by before a crush loaded local stops for them?) Not to mention that express stations tend to be busier destinations than local stations and tend to have more bus transfers than local stations.
That's an interesting point. The programming would be massive and impossible for the whole system, but you'd only need it in a few places. For example, if a local arrives at a major express transfer outside Manhattan, the program could compare the position of the next express and the signs could say "The next express train is at X. If you transfer, the express will save you X minutes to X" (or lose X minutes to X).
I'll ask about it.
Thanks for offering to ask.
Thanks for offering to ask.
For sure. I will usually walk up to 8 blocks out of my way if it's not raining to get to W 96th, W 72nd, or E 86th on the IRT. But not in rush hour when the local has high tph.
Posted on:12/30/03 11:17:30 AM
Due to a customer injury at the 34th St. station, Manhattan bound 2 and 3 trains are running on the local track from 42nd St. to 14th St. until further notice.
And also...
Due to a Police Investigation at 3 Av-138th Street, 6 service is suspended in both directions between 3 Av-138th St and 125th Street until further notice.
How do you manage to stick your head out over the tracks and get hit by the train? Was he drunk?
I can see a reason not to allow too many tokens to be bought at once: agents need to have some to continue to sell, and you dont want to deplete the token supply!
Does anyone know what the official function of this car was? It looks like either a supply car or a garbage car, unless it was a locomotive and all that stuff sitting on the deck was just used to add traction.
For anyone who's interested in "where was this taken?" shots, the page at http://206.103.49.193/nyc/bqtc.htm has a number of Brooklyn streetcar photos with unidentified locations - they're the ones with yellow backgrounds. I'm sure Dave M. would be interested in solid location info on these.
Frank Hicks
http://www.transitchicago.com/news/whatsnew2.wu?action=displaynewspostingdetail&articleid=131275
For years CTA has issued historical calendars in hard copy, but apparently because of budget constraints they're no longer doing that and instead offering it in PDF form for free. These calendars tend to be pretty fascinating - this year's includes several streetcar photos, some buses, some rapid transit and even a compressed-air car!
Frank Hicks
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Please accept my apologies with this. Apparently Sprint is making life difficult for us users who want to see these pics (for everybody who uses Sprint Picture Mail, not just this board). What I need to do between now and the next time is to raise these issues with Sprint and see if they can be corrected (i.e. opening up a new browser window without shrinking.). I also have problems with the pictures in loading the album because if I have 154 pictures on one album, the first one I took at 59th st/CC should be the first one in the album, right? WRONG! The first picture I took is the last one on the website and the last one is the first. So I have the painstaking process of rearranging all 154 pictures manually in the order they should be.
Anyway, thank you for bringing these matters to my attention and I will look for other ways of posting these pics. I will continue to use my camera phone as before.
Are you going to post up your trip report? I'm interested in seeing your list of SubTalkers in attendance.
< a href="linktosite" target="_blank" > My photos < /a >
It should open your link in a new window.
It's annoying, but nothing someone with at least half a brain can't deal with...
Here's how;
Here's how;
<A HREF="url" TARGET="_new">
Sorry about the first post, I accidentally posted from a preview.
test
And why are you complaining to me? I run the Sprint site now?
No url refers to the address. Everything that is in capitals must be copied as is, no changes (except for making it lowercase).
From now on, my Sprint pictures will open up in a new window without the inconvenience of accidently closing Subtalk on the same browser window.
I still have to address the issue about the narrow window with Sprint, but it's a matter of resizing. No big deal in this case.
1) The next-to-last third rail grade crossing to be eliminated (before E105 Street) was:
(a) McGaw's Lane on the Brighton Line.
(b) Stillwell Avenue on the Norton's Point branch of the Culver Line
(c) Fresh Pond Road on the Myrtle Avenue Line
(d) Park Place on the Brighton/Franklin Line.
2) The first cars to be called "Recbirds" were:
(a) R16
(b) R17
(c) R26
(d) R28
3) The BMT Bluebirds were built by:
(a) St. Louis Car Company.
(b) Clark Equipment Corporation.
(c) American Car & Foundry.
(d) Pullman-Standard.
4) When Mayor Hylan heard about the Malbone Street Wreck, his first reported response was summed up in two words. What were they?
5) The Nassau Street Loop and the Centre Street Loop are:
(a) the same thing. Centre Street Loop was called Nassau Street Loop after 1931.
(b) the same thing. Eastern Division documents say Centre Street; Southern Division say Nassau Street.
(c) Nassau Street Loop is from the Montague Street tunnel junction to the south end of Chambers Street station; Centre Street is from there to Essex Street.
(d) Nassau Street Loop is from Montague Street tunnel junction to Gold Street via the "H" tracks; Centre Street is from the north end of Chambers Street to Essex Street.
6) The inaugural subway train to the Rockaways was:
(a) an Arnine.
(b) an R10.
(c) an R16.
(d) an R32.
7) Wooden cars were used in passenger service through the Malbone Street wreck tunnel until:
(a) November 4, 1918.
(b) August 1, 1920.
(c) May 30, 1924.
(d) July 5, 1927.
8) The "graffiti era" began with tagging of cars on:
(a) the IRT West Side Lines
(b) the BMT Franklin Shuttle
(c) the IND "A" Train
(d) the IRT East Side Lines
9) After transferring to subway, the Rockaway Line was:
(a) an IND line, staffed with IND crews.
(b) an IND line, staffed with IND, BMT and IRT crews.
(c) a separate division, staffed with IND, BMT and IRT crews.
(d) a separate division, staffed by IND crews.
10) Immediately after seeing the horror of the Malbone Street wreck, Motorman Luciano:
(a) went home asking for his wife to hide him.
(b) went to Culver Depot to change his clothes.
(c) was picked up by BRT officials, who took him to headquarters.
(d) stayed at the scene for several hours, watching from Washington Avenue.
At least I didn't have to guess on Hylan.
1 - C
2 - A
3 - D
4 - "wooden cars"
5 - A
6 - A
7 - B
8 - C
9 - A
10 - A
Jimmy
LOL!
(c) Fresh Pond Road on the Myrtle Avenue Line
2) The first cars to be called "Recbirds" were:
(b) R17
3) The BMT Bluebirds were built by:
(b) Clark Equipment Corporation.
4) When Mayor Hylan heard about the Malbone Street Wreck, his first reported response was summed up in two words. What were they?
"Oh shit."
5) The Nassau Street Loop and the Centre Street Loop are:
(d) Nassau Street Loop is from Montague Street tunnel junction to Gold Street via the "H" tracks; Centre Street is from the north end of Chambers Street to Essex Street.
6) The inaugural subway train to the Rockaways was:
(c) an R16.
7) Wooden cars were used in passenger service through the Malbone Street wreck tunnel until:
(d) July 5, 1927.
8) The "graffiti era" began with tagging of cars on:
(c) the IND "A" Train
9) After transferring to subway, the Rockaway Line was:
(d) a separate division, staffed by IND crews.
10) Immediately after seeing the horror of the Malbone Street wreck, Motorman Luciano:
(a) went home asking for his wife to hide him.
BTW, I've studied aspects of Malbone Street over the course of 40 years for a never-written book and, as time goes on, I've come to believe (and I think Cudahy does too) that Luciano was not nearly as incompetent as we've been led to believe and a few well-placed words from the dispatchers at either Kings Highway or Park Row might have saved a hundred lives.
I would agree that Brain Cudahy doesn't seem too hard on Luciano. He points out that Luciano handled the steep grade on the Brooklyn Bridge without incident and, after the signal mix-up at Franklin, followed the rules in getting his train back onto the correct route.
No.
OK, Paul...so how do I rate?
No one has gotten more than 4 out of 10 so far, and NO ONE has gotten at least one of the questions right. If any poster wants to amend his posting, I will amend his score, but maybe you should just leave well enough alone.
On one question, I accepted two "right" answers, although one is more technically correct than the other.
wayne
But first, a coupla notes--
I mis-typed one question so there was no correct answer, but someone got the idea and effectively got the answer right.
One question has two correct answers--read the note.
Two questions no-one got. I figured someone should have gotten the first, since I posted the answer on SubTalk not too long ago. The second I can't blame you for, since the most popular source doesn't mention it.
Not as many people responded to this as I had hoped. Of course, if I had said that someone was the Antichrist, there would have been 100 detailed responses in the first half-hour. But if I have enough requests, I'll whip up another after a while.
IF I TRANSCRIBED ANYBODY'S ANSWERS WRONG, LET ME KNOW AND I WILL FIX.
The answer and result sheet.
I'm looking forward to the next round, as long it's transit stuff and not something way off topic. You are correct, 1,000 people will reply to an off-topic quiz, unlike the 6 or 7 people who took a crack at yours.
Fixed! Sorry about that. Anyone see any more transcription errors, gimme a yell!
As to the R17, the question was: 2) The first cars to be called "Recbirds" were: which were the R29s. What does the "Court of SubTalk" think? :)
Aaaaaaaaarrrrrggggghhhhh.
Actually, I knew you were going to say exactly that; the only question was the number or bangs! ;-)
But enjoy, you earned it!
Just because sombody doesn't respond to a post with another post doesn't mean they didn't read it or appreciate it.
Bob Sklar
Now, some details of this very unusual crossing. The picture is actually taken in 1907 on the embankment (therefore the current right-of-way) from the north of end of temporary Avenue J station.
The view is north to the McGaws Lane grade crossing. McGaws Lane is a disappeared road which, at the turn of the century, was the only through east-west road between Foster Avenue to the north and Kings Highway to the south. It ran from Flatbush Avenue to Coney Island Avenue. It crossed the Brighton Line a little south of the current line of Avenue I.
When the Brighton was grade-separated McGaws Lane and a number of other early roads were slated to disappear beneath new developments, but it was still too important to eliminate before other roads were completed, though they weren't going to build an underpass for a highway soon to disappear. So the answer was that they built shallow earthen ramps on each side of the right-of-way and a grade crossing on the embankment, which isn't very high above street level at this location.
This second-to-last (and probably only, with E105) third rail grade crossing was probably eliminated, along with McGaws Lane, in 1908.
Yes, when I was there in the mid-eighties (and I can't imagine, at their densities, that an overpass could have been built since). The Yoyogi-Koen station approach, an extremely busy station on the Chiyoda line right past where it crosses the circle line pictured in the famous pictures of white-gloved "pushers" (I'm going from memory here; someone correct me), has a drop gate. Children are taught in school to obey the signals.
The circle line (Yamanote) has a couple of grade crossings that almost never opens during rush but it's not a subway line.
The only grade crossing on the Tokyo subway system is at the lead tracks to the Ueno depot of the Ginza line. But since most lines have through services to suburban lines, you frequently see rolling stock used on the subway crossing at grade.
But the many above surface rapid transit lines still have many of them. There are even a couple of them near Shinjuku (one of the CBDs)
Regards,
Jimmy
Regards,
Jimmy
Jimmy
It's the same photo. The paint scheme on the R-10 is a dead giveaway.
Jimmy
Regards,
Jimmy
I don't see how it's so hard to cut and paste the URL from the address bar into the post.
DONE
Whoever did the mock photo of 76 Street (using the picture of 7 Av, see elsewhere in this thread) did a MUCH better job.
Regards,
Jimmy
-Robert King
Not in the hands of a competent operator! On a streetcar, the arc will be minimal when putting up the pole at the beginning of the day, even less when taking the pole down at the end of the day, and should be non-existent when reversing poles since you should always put up one pole before taking down the other. There will be the occasional arc when passing through a frog, but our overhead is maintained well enough that this is kept to a minimum. The rapid transit equipment will draw an arc, no matter how skillful the operator, since it is equipped with only one pole and has a higher current draw than the streetcars, but the real bright arcs are those seen underneath the RT cars as the controller is "bumped" to move them slowly through the yard.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
But there is NO reson to call anyone a bitch because the person does not like the voice. This is why flame wars start up in Subtalk.
"...Connection here for the Loooooooooooooooong Island Railroad."
When does a bronx rider know when the train is going to stick to "Manhattan bound 6 express train" or not announce anything in manhattan? When the train freezes during the "This is 125 st" announcemnt.
Here are gen 3 R142 announcements:
Gen 3 5 train- 3av 149st next, Is she about to cry or is going through puberty when she says "Avenue"
I still do not understand the point of this announcemnt
I think that that is generic transit stupidity. We have similar idiotic announcements in London - for example at Paddington EB, you will be told "This is a District Line train calling all stations to Edgware Road. The next stop is Edgware Road".
At the weekend.
My favorite Tube announcements:
Victoria is next. Change at Victoria for the Victoria Line, Mainline, and Suburban Services.
This is a Piccadilly Line train calling at all stations to Cockfosters.
This is a District Line train calling at all stations to Edgeware Road. (the announcement at Paddington)
"This is a District Line, taking the scenic route from Upminster to Richmond. This train will call at all stations, except Cannon St, but including Mansion House, despite the fact no-one uses it on a Sunday. The next stop is Upminster Bridge".
It's technology's fault. The announcement system is programmed to announce the name of the train, and then the next stop. So what if the last stop sounds a bit awkward, when you hear "This. Is a Bowling Green-bound (5) train. The next. Stop is Bowling Green." It's probably easier than telling the computer to do something completely different.
Besides, what would you have it say?
I'd rather it said 138 ST-MOTT HAVEN and 149 ST-MOTT AVENUE! :O)
just nostalgic...
wayne
A few weeks ago, I was riding in an uptown 3 train at 72nd St., and I remember seeing an ad--I don't remember if it was in the train or on the platform--but it was for some service which was supposed to let you make international calls from your current cell phone. I know it's probably a scam (the advertisement looked none too professional) of some sort but I wanted to check it out and see what they were offering anyway, but I can't remember what the website was--I thought it was something like www.cellularmonkey.com, but that site doesn't have anything to do with international calling. Has anyone seen this ad, and can tell me what the correct address is?
www.gorrillamobile.com (I think). If that is the wrong web address, then do a Google search using Gorrilla as the keyword.
Actual MOD Route: 59th St./CC to 6th Ave express, switch to F local at 34th St., then down to Chrystie/Essex to J line. From Essex, over Williamsburg Bridge, via local track to Broadway Junction. Switch to L line to Rockaway Parkway, then relay. Rockaway Parkway to 8th Ave and Lunch. Train is laid-up somewhere in Brooklyn (Myrtle Ave stub track?) and returns to 8th Ave. Informed of 12-9 at Sutter, we run only to Broadway Junction, relay back to 8th Ave, relay again to Livonia Ave. Relay to W/B track, then use flyover to J line at Broadway Junction. Go past Broadway Junction, switch over to middle track and relay. From Broadway Junction to 111th St then use middle stub track and relay. Run back to 111th St, middle to about 50 feet before bumper block and relay back to east of 111th (this was for the photo-ops). Relay again back to Manhattan bound track for final pick-up from the last photo stop, and run via. J, Chrystie cut, F and D lines back to 59th St/CC.
Sunday was a nice day as I made my not so leisurely ride on the Q line from Brooklyn to 57/7. At Church Ave, the entire car was serenaded by a Russian Saxophone player. Got off at 57/7 and walked over to 59th St/CC for the MOD trip. The Sunday crowd was not as large as the Saturday trip, but a good turnout, nether less. LincolN was back to wearing shorts, but HE WORE A LONG SLEEVED JACKET. Totally shocking. The MOD train arrives at 10:35 and we took off. I took the RF window for the first photos as a bunch of us made some room for two kids who want to RF the window too. We did nicely on 6th Ave., switching to local tracks and running to Essex St. Essex tower lets a J train ahead before we arrived for the first photo op. I rode a J train ahead with Koi-PTIML and R32/38 looking out the RF window for the classic Williamsburg Bridge shot at Marcy Ave. When the Arnie consist came in, I went down on the platform floor and took a precarious shot before retreating safely. I went back on the train as many Subtalkers were talking some good stuff as Mark W. told me that I was misunderstood because I assumed something. LOL, great joke. Train quickly does a fast run on the BMT Jamaica Line before hooking up to the Canarsie line for the ride out to Rockaway Parkway. We took some photos out there, and then a bunch of us went ahead for the runby opportunity at either Livonia or Atlantic Ave. I hung out at Livonia first, when 2 L trains went ahead, there was a long line on the Canarsie side and I was in Bill Newkirks way. The Manhattan-bound side had MDT-Route 29 taunting Chris Rivera and others in the pictures. WHOOPS! A third R143 train arrived and I took that to Atlantic for another photo-op. MOD train finally arrives at Atlantic and we took off for 8th Ave and lunch. Before we arrived at 8th Ave, we did a photo stop at Bedford Ave and the kids with their basketball uniform candy were looking at the train (Were there anyone on the MOD train who wanted $1 candies?) At the 8th Ave lunch stop, the tiny Kosher Restaurant that David of Broadway mentioned was a nice warm place with only six tables and one cook who also doubled as the waiter. Silverfox finds us in the eatery and joins us for lunch A Muslim and a Jewish person eating lunch together he says, a very pleasant statement indeed and the reason why we should stop fighting on Subtalk and start respecting each other. There were no other MOD trip attendees who found the place so it was the three of us all to ourselves, chatting, relaxing and feeding our stomachs before the 2 PM return time. We return to 8th Ave, with time to spare to enjoy the second half of the trip.
However, as the MOD train was on its way from Brooklyn, the tower reminds us to please refrain from using flash on the T/Os position. It should be mandatory but I think most photographers do respect this rule to. Then the tragic 12-9 happened at Sutter Ave, which caused a problem for the MOD route. Part of the route was to run to Livonia, then relay there back towards Broadway Junction, there was no other way to access the J line. Due to the 12-9, the power was cut off south of Broadway Junction so Bill Wall (the trips organizer and fearless leader), ordered the following: Run to Broadway Junction non-stop because a Superintendent was summoned to the emergency at Sutter. Relay there and run back to 8th Ave. Relay with the QUICKNESS back to Broadway Junction, while making the famous photo stop at Wilson Ave. On the first non-stop run to Broadway Junction, the 12-9 was cleared up, but Mr. Wall wanted to go back and forth so we can do Wilson Ave. I want to than him for keeping the best parts of the route intact, despite the tragedy. We had ample time at Wilson, and then took off to resume the MOD route and run up to the J line. Two people who were at the Wilson Ave photo stop missed the train and caught up to us later on at Broadway Junction on the Manhattan-bound J platform. Since the reroute affected the limited time we had, it was a choice; either do the outdoors on the J line, or run through the tunnels to 95th St on the R line. Guess who lost? I finally took advantage of the seat next to the large window in #484 that I didnt budge for the remainder of the trip. We went up to 111th St, dropped off a lot of photographers and went up the middle for the best photo op. The train slowly runs down the middle track to a safe distance from the bumper block and stays there for a few minutes before backing up. To the delight of everyone who took pictures from all angles on both platforms at 111th st, it was spectacular. Went back on regular track and picked up everyone. We had the sunset on us as we went back into Manhattan, retracing our steps back to 59th St. As usual in Manhattan, some people were running to the F train but realized it was not their train. We ended where we started, took a group photo and said goodbye to each other.
Here are the list of Subtalkers who attended:
David of Broadway
LincolN
Christopher Rivera
Mark W.
Chris R27/30
Bombardier
Mr. Brian
Boriqua
Transit ChuckGreene
ChurchuBob
MDT Route 29/VC Madman
Koi-Public Transit Is My Lifeline
Bill Jamaica Center from Maspeth
High St./Brooklyn Bridge
Bill Newkirk
R32/38
John S.
Silverfox
BMTman
Jailhouse Doc
Operational Engineer II
R33- #9279/Brian
Far Rockaway A Train
Thru Express
Sci-Guy 6586
Jehuty
...and in spirit from all of us but was not able to attend: Sir Ronald of McDonald
And Broadway Junction was the chaser
Great trip indeed. =D
That's because they refuse to wear name-tags...
til next time
Yes, I received half-hourly updates via cellphone about the train's progress.
First lets thank anyone who has a railfan website, whether it'll be for photos or to help us expand our knowledge thank you, with the power of the web, these sites continue to draw up people and make new railfans everyday.
Thanks to David P. for keeping subtalk up despite the bad times. I've been here since the beginning, and subtalk has had its bad times and good times, but there are good times on the horizon. Lets keep subtalk alive for the years to come for future subway fans to share their knowledge and gain knowledge. Also thank you to the many volunteers to this website who keep expanding letting us who never had the chance to understand the chance too. Keep it up so that people no matter where they live in the world learn about the various systems throughout the world.
Thank you to Sub Division C and Company for running the MOD Trips; Keeping history running on for this year and hopefully for the years to come, keeping the cars in great condition and letting us who were too young or werent born yet the chance to ride in this equipment. Continue with the great work, we appreciate it! Not only do you help us railfans enjoy history but you help out a great charity.
Finally lets thank the railfans, if it wasn't for us, none of this would be necessary! Come up people stand up and start thanking!
To LincolN, Chris Rivera (that's you!), Broadway Junction, skfny and Mrs. skfny: Thanks for for completing the Ultimate Ride and enjoying it too.
To Sir. Ronald of McDonald, David of Broadway and RIPTA42HopeTunnel and LincolN's father: Thank you for supporting us during the course of the trip.
To Mark W.: Thank you for keeping the SMEE and AMUE babies in great shape.
To the Subtalkers who posted some of the best pictures from all over: You are what makes the sport of railfanning a undying breed.
To Bill Wall for organizing the MOD trips: Thanks for giving us the bang for our buck, worth every penny.
The Thanks is a pleasant surprise. Outside of Mr. Pirmann's recognition of my contribution to the R-142 delivery page, I believe you would be the only other person who made mention of my work.
I'll need to fine tune the R-142 page one of these days and try to plug in some gaps.
I would welcome meeting a fellow SubTalker. If you like the NYC Subway, you should try to come to The Shore Line Trolley Museum in East Haven, CT and get to ride the subway cars of the past.
Regards,
Constantine Steffan aka Stef
Regards,
Jimmy
American Pig - for providing some of the best thought out OT posts.
British James - who is no longer.
CC 8TH AVE. LOCAL - for being a good bloke regardless of what some people think.
David - for being a mine of information.
Elias - for being a paradigm of how to be passionate about trains without getting involved in messy flame wars.
Fytton - for his stubborn support for Croydon Tramlink.
Jersey Mike - for detailed photography of the most obscure things.
Max Roberts - for his NYC tube-style map.
Ron in Bayside - for at least amking everyone think by his being an old git.
#4 Sea Beach Fred - for being somewhat of a legend.
Thirty-Third St. - better late than never (much like the 6 local).
I was searching through the archives to find my first post, which is this. I never made a formal "welcome post" but thanks for making me feel at home. :-)
I respect all of you, you are the best rail-fan friends anybody could find. I'll only mention a few ; ChuChuBob, Chris R27-30, Stef, Sparky, Lou from Brooklyn and countless others. Cheers to all of you and a Happy New Year!
Let's have a rocking 2004! More fan trips1 I love NYC...
Chuck Greene
And NOT ONCE have I gotten a note or e-mail saying "Thanks".
So from now on, if you need something and I have it, TOUGH SHIT!!!
Chuck Greene
Koi
Happy New Year!
John
To the organizers of special trips: Mark W et al. I havent been able to make on yet, but I very much appreciate your efforts.
To the experts, Train Dude, Jersey Mike, Selkirk, Philip Nasadowski, Stephen Bauman for educating me.
To Selkirk for the entertainment factor. We share the same quirky sense of humor! Moooooo!
To British James/Rail Blue for reminding me about the country I left 20 years ago and giving me a sense of nostalgia!
To Brian, David, Dante, Harry, Bob, Chris, John for some excellent photographs.
To the participants of New York Underground for some real fun and entertainment!
To Lincolns legs (for some real fun and entertainment!)
To the other posters in this board for their contributions.
If I have offended anyone, please forgive me: I was only teasing. I have no ill will. If I helped anyone I am grateful for the opportunity.
To all: Happy New Year and Health, Wealth and Happiness for 2004!
John Lister
But I see that the MTA has elected to create a great deal of confusion with the restored service.
The Brighton Line, which Brooklynites remember as the " D " line will be called the " B " line as of February.
The West End line, remembered as the " B " line, will be referred to as the " D " line.
I could not think of a greater way to cause unnecessary confusion in the riding public. I've heard a lot of people complain about this already, two months before the changes are to take effect.
This sounds like a practical joke on the part of whoever made the decision to switch the names of these subway lines. Could there be any valid reason?
Now look at these scenarios:
If the B and D were to retain their 1967-2001 routes, then the B would have to go to 205th st full time while the D part time. But the D is normally an express in Manhattan while the B is local above 59th st/CC. This will alienate Bronx Concourse line riders who were accustome to riding the D since the line opened in 1933.
If the D and B were to both use the Brighton line and the Q on West End, the B loses it's identity and Brighton Line riders will have no direct access to the Broadway line. Since under the plan, the West End and Sea Beach line will bypass Dekalb, there would be no Broadway trains via. bridge stopping at Dekalb and the alternative to access the Broadway line from Brighton territory, is to change for the slow R train through the Montague rathole at Dekalb or walk from Atlantic to Pacific through the long passageway.
As much as there is a dramatic change in service on 2/22/03, the only thing that is an issue is the Brooklyn portion of the B and D lines are switched and the W has a minor reroute. Other than those items, service is pretty much the same as the last time in 1990 when both side of the bridge were open.
If they would swap N and W equipment in Astoria, I could see it, but the TA is quite anal nowadays about not wanting to move equipment and changing destination signs from line to line very often.
Really? Not that I've seen. The R-40's on the N and Q swap places all the time. The R-32's and R-38's on the A and C swap places all the time. The R-68's on the B and D swap places all the time. And while the bulk of Jamaica's R-32's run on the E, there's no telling which of them will be on the F or R any given day.
I don't remember how long both sides were open in 1990 but I remember having the R as the only Broadway local. The addition of the W is very welcomed. It's like having the 80s diamond N running outside of rush hours. And IINM, the uptown B and the Q were rush-only in the 80s as well. Now if they can bring back the brown R or extend the M beyond Chambers during the day, I'd be happy happy. Service on 4th Ave. local sucks.
As there was no 6th Avenue Line in 1933, there was no D. The two services on the Concourse were the C and CC. One was express in Manhattan, the other local. Both went to Hudson Terminal. Off peak, the C did not run, the CC was extended to 205th. So the Concourse line was previously served without express service.
If the TA would end the stupidity of calling lines only by letters, there would be no confusion.
The D, which people remember as the Brighton train, will soon mean the West End...and I believe at one time was used to refer to what is now the F line in Brooklyn.
The routes should always be referred to by the old names -- Fourth Avenue, Sea Beach, Brighton, West End, etc., local or express. Then, people will actually have an idea where the damned trains are going.
I'm telling you, there will be a lot of angry people in Brooklyn when the B and D trains switch names in February.
And you know what else, Alex? After a short period of confusion and complaining, most New Yorkers will forget there was ever a prior service pattern! At first stubborn, then flexible, then resiliant!
I still remember the D on the Culver - where I grew up - and I was only 5 when it moved to the Brighton.
Oh... I was in the Navy, in vietnam when *that* happened, came home and found an (F) where the (D) should have been. At least the Arnines were still there, though the Standards were gone (I think).
BTW: My 1964 map doesn't show ANY letters on it : )
Elias
Nah... betcha there aint.
Elias
Maybe that's one of the reasons MTA used Q, Q and W instead of Yellow B and Yellow D like in the 80s. Make the changes gradually. Then again they have been other terminals exchanges in the past. B and C, N and R, 2 and 3, etc... And people eventually adapted to the new routes. OTOH, if you change the letter of the A in Manhattan or D in the Bronx, I imagine many people will oppose to it because of the song, the band (remember them? :-p) and other cultural associations to those lines.
: ) Elias
: ) (yeah, I knew that)
But I see that the MTA has elected to create a great deal of confusion with the restored service.
The Brighton Line, which Brooklynites remember as the " D " line will be called the " B " line as of February.
The West End line, remembered as the " B " line, will be referred to as the " D " line.
I could not think of a greater way to cause unnecessary confusion in the riding public. I've heard a lot of people complain about this already, two months before the changes are to take effect.
This sounds like a practical joke on the part of whoever made the decision to switch the names of these subway lines. Could there be any valid reason?
Why, yes, as a matter of fact, there is.
We have talked it to death and back again, but i will be happy to do it all over again, just drop your hat.
Both the Brighton and the West End will be getting something different than what they had for the past two years, so that there will be a change is no surprize.
Obviously, we do not want to change more than what we have to, ie. not changing things up on the Grand Concourse. So! what do we have left?
The (B) is a part time service (16/5 or whatever)
The (D) is a fulltime 24/7 train.
So if the (Q) is the full-time 24/7 Broadway Express (local on the Brighton), then clearly the part-time Brighton train ought to come from 6th Avenue. That Part-time train is the (B). Clearly the (Q) could have been part time instead, but it was not done.
So if the Full-time 24/7 6th Avenue train cannot go to Brighton, where can it go? The West End needs a full time train, the (D) is full time... so. send it out there.
BESIDES... I remember when the (D) owned the CULVER LINE... so if you ask me I'd put it back there! : )
I think MTA did a good job on the South Brooklyn Lines.
Elias
Yes, I had thought of that, of course, when people were complaing that the (M) was moved from the Brighton to the West End, but really, all that does is to replace the old (T) service with the (M) service.
Besides, since thise dumbos went to single letter route designations, there are not enough letters left for all of the route expansions ; ) that are planned. Thus the (T) letter is reserved for Second Avenue, albeit that it may just end up crossing the same bridge and going out on the West End Lion anyway.
This being said... one must remember (apropos to the (M) living on the West End), that is where there is spare terminal capacity, both at Bay Parkway and at 9th Avenue.
Elias
Unlike the Park Slope and Carroll Gardens crowds, folks along the Brighton and West End Lines generally don't base their prestige or property values on the train's letter.
Frowning..
N Broadway Line
The last subway shirt I got was a 'F,' and I'm happy with it.
Now, what I find truly silly is those people who base their prestige on whether their line is an express or a local -- not on how quickly they get where they're going, but simply on that express-local distinction. A number of them post here, in fact.
I still do.
"Proff" of an attitude would be evidenced by expressions of said attitude. In this case, that comes from two current Park Slope residents and one former Carroll Gardens resident. All of them insist that, if Culver Line service is ever restructured, the "inner zone" local stops must continue to be served by the F, at all times and at all costs.
The reasoning behind this is, though, is rather bizarre: F is preferred because it occurs early in the alphabet and thus is a "high-class" letter; on the other hand, V is the 22nd letter and is considered "low-class." Thus, a V train running every 90 seconds is still unacceptable because V is not F.
Except that there are far more ex-Manhattanites (who have a way of being petty) along the Culver Line than along Queens Blvd.
Besides, who cares? There may be valid reasons not to run the F express and the V local in Brooklyn, but this isn't one of them.
I'm predicting that within a pick or two, the weekend N will return to the tunnel. The lower Manhattan stations may not be as busy on weekends as on weekdays, but neither are most other stations. If the local stations north of Canal need two weekend services, then I don't think the local stations south of Canal will get by with just one.
Even more likely, IMO, is that the weekend D will begin stopping at DeKalb, despite the switching moves involved. The inconvenience to Brighton-6th passengers is excessive as long as the D uses the bypass.
That's it for now. I agree with AlM that NYCT planners likely agree with my assessment of weekend CPW services (there should be two locals, one to 8th and one to 6th, with only the A express), with politics standing in the way of implementation.
I look forward to it if it happens... especially since my "W" will not run on the Weekend.
"That's it for now. I agree with AlM that NYCT planners likely agree with my assessment of weekend CPW services (there should be two locals, one to 8th and one to 6th, with only the A express), with politics standing in the way of implementation."
Since these trains run practically empty, There's no need for two locals on the CPW on the weekends.. Settle for the #1.
N Bwy
N Bwy
His strange what?
Now compare to CPW local passengers. How much time do you think they are currently forced to give up by having to wait for the C (which runs infrequently and erratically on weekends) and then having to wait again for the D? Percentagewise, how much of a decrease in travel times do you think would be typical for a CPW-6th passenger if the D ran local? Do local passengers currently spend that time sitting on a climate-controlled, well-lit subway train or standing in a dim subway station?
Analyze the facts.
As for crowds, the C tends to be more crowded than the D on weekends north of Columbus Circle. Most D trains that I've seen have only a few passengers per car; on occasion, I'll see fewer people on a D train than are standing on a single local platform, waiting for the C. I've been on a good number of crush loaded C trains on weekends. The crowds on the C thin out substantially south of 59th (but they pick up on the D -- hmmm, I wonder where they're coming from!).
Weekend tph: C 6tph, D 8tph.
For local service between two CPW local stations:
Average wait at 6tph = 5 minutes.
Average wait at 14tph = 2 minutes, 9 seconds.
Time saved by D running local: 2 minutes, 51 seconds.
Therefore, for pure provision of local service, running the D Local would be too close to call.
Now consider the time lost by local riders travelling between CPW and 6th Av:
D runs express:
Average wait at 6tph = 5 minutes.
Average wait at 8tph = 3 minutes, 45 seconds.
D runs local:
Average wait at 8tph = 3 minutes, 45 seconds.
Time lost by CPW - 6th Av riders by D train running express = 5 minutes.
This is greater than the time saved by the express run.
That's because it makes more stops than the D. And my observations have not confirmed that the C is any more crowded than the A/D.
Your point? Mine is that more people stand to gain from a local CPW-6th service than stand to lose, and the gains are greater than the losses. It's impossible to give everyone the service plan that would be ideal for them, but we might as well accomodate as many as we can.
Yes, the C is more crowded than the D because it makes more stops. If the D also made those stops, the crowds would be distributed over more than twice as many trains.
And my observations have not confirmed that the C is any more crowded than the A/D.
Who said anything about the A? The A is reasonably crowded on weekends, sometimes more and sometimes less than the C. The D typically isn't. My observations are more common than yours.
Your observations are tainted by personal need and your UWS bias. Service patterns must balance the ridership needs of ALL it's passangers.
Well, no not always.
Passenger Loadings are important, and there ought to be enough trains to handle passenger loads comfortably. BUT... Balancing line use, and terminal use, and finding terminals to turn trains at is also a consideration.
Sometimes a bunch of empty trains have to run all the way out to say, Coney Island, just because that is where the terminal is.
Yup... some segments of a line are going to be very crowded, and the ends rather empty, but that's life. Deal with it.
Elias
What personal need? I rarely ride the C on weekends, and I certainly don't ride it if I need the D. Why would I walk ten minutes and wait for the unreliable, infrequent C when I can walk two minutes and wait for the reliable, relatively frequent 1, seeing as I have to transfer at Columbus Circle in either case?
Service patterns must balance the ridership needs of ALL it's passangers.
Exactly! What do you think Rail Blue's analysis does? What do you think my past analyses have done? Be my guest and critique them, but all I've heard from you on the topic is that the C is never, ever crowded, nowhere along the route (despite statements by many others to the contrary), and that the Concourse line must have a weekend D express, period, no analysis necessary, since they've had one for decades (never mind that ridership patterns change as the decades pass, and the Concourse line in particular was much busier in the 40's and 50's than it is now).
Your posts are usually intelligent, but you seem to hit a mental block whenever this subject comes up. If you don't like Rail Blue's analysis, tell us what's wrong with it, or come up with your own.
CPW local stops: Sat 30246, Sun 24328, Total 54574.
Concourse line: Sat 41671, Sun 31445, Total 73116.
Concourse line numbers above do not include 161 StYankee Stadium.
161 StYankee: Sat 15456, Sun 11222, Total 26678.
(161 StYankee includes Concourse and IRT riders)
Excluding 161 StYankee Stadium, Concourse = CPW local * 1.34.
Including 161 StYankee Stadium, Concourse = CPW local * 1.83.
Keep in mind that passengers between Concourse stations are double-counted, even though they don't care if the D goes local or express in Manhattan. Passengers who transfer to the 4 and A are counted, even though they, too, don't care if the D goes local or express in Manhattan. And passengers who transfer to the C at 145 or 125 are also counted, even though local service is better for them.
Agreed, and those riders could easily tip the balance of the argument, which seems inconclusive based on the numbers.
Okay, I want express service. I want some 1 trains to switch to the express track at 72, and then switch back to the local track at 42.
They're equally ridiculous ideas. Nobody's entitled to express service just because they want it.
Well.... actually it was a 9 train... 86,79,72,59,42,34,14,Houston,Chambers..... NIIIICCCEEEEEEEE.. It was the7:22 out of 86th i think
I agree with that. Before, when just the N and R were running on the Broadway line (when the MB was closed to Broadway trains), the headways were awful on that line, and that was even with two services. I can't imagine the line with only one service south of Canal. Lower Manhattan doesn't need more service than south of 59th in Brooklyn?---of course it does.
Or do you mean on weekends?
Yes. What you say is true, but...
(there is always a but, eh?)
The headway on the (RR) (Astoria Line) in those days was MUCH GREATER.
Once upon a time, I guess before the Astoria N-RR switch there was talk of a "saturation headway" on the RR to make up for the fact that there was only one train on that route.
I haven't heard about that so much any more. With the (R) going to Continential (and thus sharing the tracks with the (V) ) that seems to cut the headway over what was possible when the train went to Astoria.
That is why the (W) on Weekdays.
Elias
Service in the 1950's was odd as well. The tunnel had 1 service on weekends but 2 at night, as Brighton service was tunnel only.
I personally would like two local services on the BMT south of Canal on weekends as well.
But is it really needed? Here are some other Manhattan stations south of 64th St. that only have 8 tph on weekends:
East Broadway
Delancey (F)
Second Ave
14th (6th Ave)
23rd (6th Ave)
57th (6th)
5th Ave (53rd)
Lex (53rd - E)
Lex (63rd)
Roosevelt Island
Do Whitehall, Rector, Cortlandt, and City Hall really get more traffic than those stations listed above?
Yes and no. Downtown is empty on the weekends, and Midtown is not. On the other hand, the 6th Avenue line is right next to the BMT Broadway line in Midtown, while there is very little available on the B division south of Chambers, and people would like Downtown to be less empty on weekends.
I would have sent the N train via tunnel on weekends, but Sea Beach Fred won that one.
N/W Broadway
By the way, the "N" line was rated as the number two worse line in the subway system. That should tell you that this line could use some great improvements..
ANd.. another thing... After having the R68's.. they cut out throats once again... GIVING US ALL OLD TRAINS!!! This is why I like the "W" so much.. new trains.. and a better schedule.
Lets hope, FRED, that they improve this line considerably beside putting it on the Bridge.
N Broadway
Canal Street, next stop City Hall
By the way, the "N" line was rated as the number two worse line in the subway system. That should tell you that this line could use some great improvements..
ANd.. another thing... After having the R68's.. they cut out throats once again... GIVING US ALL OLD TRAINS!!! This is why I like the "W" so much.. new trains.. and a better schedule.
Lets hope, FRED, that they improve this line considerably beside putting it on the Bridge.
N Broadway
Canal Street, next stop City Hall
Most of your other examples have nearby stations with services to similar areas. The Lower Manhattan BMT stations don't -- well, they do, but those nearby stations are closed entirely on weekends.
The availability of alternate services is roughly comparable for the R stations in lower Manhattan and for the E and F stations south of 64th that have no other services.
Whitehall, Rector, City Hall, and Cortlandt have the 1 (except Cortlandt for now), 4, and 5 nearby, which go to many but not all the places the R goes in Manhattan.
On the other hand, East Broadway and Delancey (very popular shopping area on Sundays) have no good alternatives to the F. 5th/53rd and Lex/53rd have no good alternative to the E for going to the west side. Roosevelt Island has only the F.
Saturday / Sunday ridership (2002):
Whitehall 5861 / 4372
Rector 3763 / 2685
Cortlandt 2106 / 1484
City Hall 4470 / 2888
East Broadway 8328 / 7647
Delancey (F) ?
Second Ave 9045 / 7577
14th (6th Ave) ?
23rd (6th Ave) 8895 / 6229
57th (6th) 5853 / 4374
5th Ave (53rd) 4969 / 2822
Lex (53rd - E) ?
Lex (63rd) 4879 / 3839
Roosevelt Island 3222 / 2603
So excluding transfer stations (complexes) the answer is: yes and no, but mostly no!
This proves my point that serving lower Broadway with only the R is no more unfair than serving the F and E lines with only one service.
That said, the current plan for the N saves time by having it avoid the slow curves downtown, which probably much more than the stops are what saves more time over the tunnel route. But if the revitalization of downtown is important it's hard to see how to get that with less trains going through there. Even if more R trains are run under the current plan, something not clear to me, if the question is answered again in the future, it's close enough that the N could be sent via the tunnel again.
I would love to have my "N" back on the weekends.. because it will serve downtown where it is needed. Can I have my "N" train back - at least on the weekends?
N Bwy
But the "W" only runs on the weekdays... *Sad face* and I must work on Saturdays as well... *tear roll down cheek onto subway platform*
N Broadway Line
You and RailBlue have analyzed the uptown B and D situation quite well. It may take longer to tweak this, but it may only be a matter of time before the B and D switch local/express roles in uptown Manhattan and the Bronx.
N/W Broadway
Friday afternoon northbound was typical incompetence. I waited 6 minutes at Cortlandt Street for an "R", let it go (to chance a conventional consist), caught an "N" ONE minute behind it.
Then the R ahead of me is held at 34th for both a W that would eventually cut in front of it, AND then a diamond-Q. The N I was on of course sat still for about 4 minutes and connected with nothing. Since the "R" got to 34th first, it should have gone first. The bunching of R-N and W-Q is still inexcusable. There were no crowds to cause delays. The "N" was empty.
Scheduling and running the BMT compentently is a lost art.
In Feb, the W and N swap places and the diamond-Q goes away, but these delays will continue.
Q brighton express always very fast to herald sq and 179 st
D brighton local
B west end express peak hours (local other times)
C return as concourse local all times (send the B to 207 st)
N Bwy
It's like, take your pick.
Switching at 34th saves time by avoiding the terminal backup. It also gives Astoria riders direct access to 49th on all of their trains, and apparently 49th is a very popular destination for Astorians.
N Broadway
Astoria
Thus:
(Q) BWAY EXP 179th Street via 63rd Street
(N) BWAY EXP 125th Street via 63rd Street
(R) BWAY LCL Continential via 60th Street
(W) BWAY LCL Astoria via 60th Street (to Whitehall and to City Hall)
Elias
You already have 4 (5 if you include the G which runs evenings) services on Queens Blvd.. why add another line to an already well served cooridor? Plus, you mentioned putting the viable "N" line on Second Avenue.. This is a big slap in the face!!! And I don't know why you would remove the "N" from Astoria where it's needed to fill the void. Talk about selffishness.
This is what the MTA have on their site.. and I'm comfortable with the arraignment... Q via second Avenue to 125th Street/Lexington Avenue.
I believe there is a switch on the express tracks that will allow the "N" to access the 60th Street tunnel.. Why didn't you meantioned this in your post?
I think you have something against Astoria residences.. and me personally.. and that's why you would move the "N" to 125th Street.
N/W Broadway
Astoria, Queens
Sorry to hear that someone's in trouble with the law!
Yes, the switches are there (obviously) as the express *is* going there now.
The issue changes when (*if*) the Second Avenue or any other use of the Broadway-63rd Street connection is to be used.
Once the 63rd Street line is used, 57th Street *cannot* be used as a terminal anymore.
Once that happens Whatever trains are running north of 57th Street *must* go somewhere, yes? The choices are Second Avenue and the Queensboro Line. I sent the (Q) there because it *is* (Q)ueens you know.
The (N) is the other main express train on Broadway, and so I sent that one up Second Avenue.
When (and *if*) 63rd Street is used, then that is where the BROADWAY EXPRESS trains go, and the LOCALS would then use the 60th Street Tunnel. To do otherwise (once 63rd Street is opened) would require trains to cross in front of each other. And above all else, we want to avoid merge/diverge operations in Manhattan.
SEE!
: ) Elias
The (N) is the other main express train on Broadway, and so I sent that one up Second Avenue.
Playing into the hands of the opponents of the B/D switch. Why change the north terminal of the N if you don't need to?
Aww, c'mon, give Bensonhurst and Boro Park a break. That little stretch of express between 59th and Pacific is a nice perk for those southern Brooklyn riders. I won't debate the actual time savings it entails. But it does give the neighborhoods a little more feeling of having a rapid connection to the city core.
That's not gonna happen. Bronx D riders will never allow it.
Well, maybe, but I've always felt that it's good transit operating policy to adhere in general to the concept of offering the outer stretches of subway-served neighborhoods the fastest train service into Manhattan. Obviously, the various geological and political specifics of the city landscape mean that following that design will mean different solutions to different areas.
The Bronx is the only subway-served boro that does not have at least part of its land mass located directly adjacent to the Manhattan CBD. You must traverse a good deal of Manhattan Island itself before you get to the primary business districts. Hence, the admittedly less-than-perfect solution of running express 125th to Columbus Circle.
Consider the Grand Concourse. Would it be a good citywide policy to admit that, due to the present economic status of the corridor, this extended reach of Greater New York will not be considered "important" enough to benefit from the optimal utilization of the extant transit system serving it? That the communities "downstream" will call the tune? I just don't feel that proceeding on that basis can allow the Grand Concourse and surrounding areas to advance with upgrading and renovation activities. And that will surely have an effect on the health and livability of the Upper West Side.
You're right about the problem of crowding and long headways on the CPW locals. Still, we have to take The Bronx into consideration when working on this problem. It's less, I think, a political rationale than a view towards the future health of the entire city.
Note: I stand by my opinion. However, this viewpoint is from an admitted express-train lover. It has possibly been biased by that fact.
All the AA did was force outer Fulton line passengers to endure all local stops in Brooklyn off-peak. The CPW express saves only half as much time as the Fulton express, bypasses a sequence of much busier stations, and already has an alternate express (the A).
Your bias is showing. Whatever justification there is for the D to run express on CPW on weekends, there is much greater justification for the A to run express in Brooklyn on weekends.
I lived half of my life in the North Bronx because I couldn't AFFORD to live in Manhattan. Imagine my shock when I discovered after moving upstate that I could get to midtown from POUGHKEEPSIE in about the same amount of time it took on the subway! I'm NOT kidding. To you, those 3 minutes "saved" may be chickenfeed. Psychologically, it's a MAJOR thing to folks that live far away from midtown. The IND in particular has ALWAYS "poorly served" midtown. You guys have busses that'll get you there probably faster than the amount of time it takes to get to a platform, wait for a train, climb back out ... it's a very different thing for the outer boroughs. That's why folks like myself are so passionate about "if you need more service, run it in Manhattan" ...
I know better than to argue with you, but I did want to thank Ntrainride for saying what he said. And as far as the AA went, it's remarkable how they'd hold a D at 59th for it southbound, and there it was sitting waiting NORTHBOUND ... that's how it used to work. A walk across a platform to a train waiting for you that LEFT as soon as you got on. I guess you had to be there. :)
Fulton Street is actually a better analogue than had occurred to me when I made that post. Both Fulton and CPW fall between midtown Manhattan and a fork between two branches. Passengers on the forks south of Fulton and passengers on the forks north of CPW have express service and like it.
But the Fulton line has no express service from either branch at night (in fact, one of the branches is a shuttle at night). Until a few years ago, it had no express service from either branch on weekends. Until the late 80's, its only express service was during rush hours.
The Fulton express saves about 6 minutes over the local -- twice as much as the CPW express. The Fulton local stations serve fewer passengers than the CPW local stations. And nobody's even suggesting that the CPW express be given up entirely on weekends or that one of the branches run as a late night shuttle.
What I'm suggesting be done on CPW is far less drastic than was actually in place on Fulton for decades -- even though a greater proportion of Fulton riders are express passengers.
BTW, to address your ad hominem -- I spent three months working past the end of the Brighton line. Most of that time, I had to ride the local, because the express didn't run quite early enough (and I'm talking a difference of minutes). I lived. (And, barring the terminal crawl, the Brighton express saves at least twice as much time as the Brighton local.)
Imagine my shock when I discovered after moving upstate that I could get to midtown from POUGHKEEPSIE in about the same amount of time it took on the subway! I'm NOT kidding.
Years back, when I lived along the M line in Queens, every so often I would have some of my relatives or friends come to visit from Suffolk. Most of the time, I would pick them up at Jamaica, and ride back with them on the subway (J/M) or later ride with them back to Jamaica to see them off on the LIRR.
I always found it funny that I would leave Jamaica and then take the J and M back to my apartment, and many times they would probably be home before I even got back home, and they had to travel all the way back to Suffolk! My subway ride was about an hour within Queens, and so was their 50-60 mile LIRR ride in the same time!
It is true. Whenever I had to travel to Manhattan, I would have to leave about an hour for subway travel. I now live in Suffolk, it takes me just a little over an hour to take the train or drive to Manhattan --- just a slightly longer amount of time than when I lived in an "outer" borough...so much closer!
Far Rockaway is deserving of express service as well ... just based on the distance once it gets to Euclid. Beyond Euclid, with the distance between stops out there, the locals are reasonably fast enough to get to Euclid. Service has always chewed on the Rockaway branches though.
They are getting a good bargain; a very long express ride for the same price as to go one local stop.
Ideally perhaps, but you would need more trains to operate the service, and the few Rockaway riders have a low priority.
Actually, I was just thinking about that. The only place where service would be doubled, would be between the Liberty el and Broad Channel. The shuttle trainsets would become the extended Rock Park A, and the current A to Far Rockaway would be unchanged. The current Lefferts A's would probably be almost enough to cover the shuttle's extension between the Liberty El and Broad channel. Maybe, at the most, one trainset extra would be needed for the change in A service, and elimination of the S service.
You would then need one or two trainsets for the increase in C service between Lefferts and Euclid. For the whole change in A-C-S service, you would probably only need 3 trainsets more than currently, maybe 4.
And don't forget that the Rock Park shuttle runs half-length trains.
N Broadway
And their express saves twice as much time as as the CPW express, even though the CPW express bypasses busier stations than the Fulton express.
(Lefferts passengers not only have no direct express at night, they don't have any direct service at all to Manhattan. They have to transfer to the local from Far Rock.)
With the help of the express, Far Rockaway is over an hour from 42nd Street. 205th is about 40 minutes, local all the way.
If Far Rock got by for so long with express service only during rush hours, how is it so absolutely crucial that Concourse have express service 24/7?
The accomodation you seem to think is basic to all outer borough services only exists on one other line -- the 179th Street branch -- and only because, for political reasons, there are two other locals on the line already. Until late 2001, the E and F both ran local at night. As for weekends, the CPW line is the only B Division line with two expresses and one local. Everywhere else there are three or more services (Queens Boulevard, 8th Avenue, 4th Avenue), two are local -- even though on those lines, the ratio of express passengers to local passengers is greater than on CPW.
All I'm asking is for the same standards to be applied to CPW/Concourse as are applied to every other line in the system.
As I've said frequently, the ANSWER to demand lies in history - the old AA train. Did precisely what was needed, served the area and met the D train both ways across the platform ... it really DID work. Ask any of the old-timers in the hood who REMEMBER the AA ... it was there for them with about as much frequency as anything else on CPW on either track ...
Not that I care mind ya - if I want a train where I am now, they're HOURS apart ... and a 20 mile car drive to get to the platform. :)
Why do you think that 205th should be treated differently than Far Rock or Lefferts or Brighton Beach or Jamaica Center?
I'm not the one with the bias. I'm asking for uniform policy to be applied across all lines.
Current Concourse ridership doesn't even fill up one service on weekends; it certainly has no need for two.
It may also be because they do have a choice of the "better destinations" West Side IRT right near by also. Far Rockaway-Fulton riders, and all the other lines mentioned don't have a viable alternative to their line. That may be one of the reasons (besides political) than CPW has the 2 expresses vs the 1 local scenario as opposed to the 2 local vs 1 express service that the other lines have.
Believe me, I can see the reason for more local service needed on the CPW line, as I have never had a pleasant expreience waiting for a train there. But they do have alternatives, wheras if they tried such an uneven service on other lines, it would be felt much more than on the CPW line.
I wouldn't say that...in fact I once saw a C pull in on the express track and an A pull in on the local track at the same time at Broadway Junction. I see A trains on the Queens-bound Fulton local in the morning quite often after gaps in C service. Maybe they just want to screw CPW riders. Maybe the A Line Sup. doesn't want his precious going local, but he has no control over Jay/Hoyt.
I'm convinced though that if MTA had their way, EVERYTHING would be a local and the disused express tracks would become SUV HOV lanes with ramps. :)
Why do you hold 205th in such greater accord than Far Rock that you'd sooner eliminate all Fulton express service on weekends than eliminate half of CPW express service on weekends?
As to why things are as they are on Rockaway, I'm not defending that at all ... I'm only saying that the ride in from the Bronx is plenty long too. Back in my day there, the D was an express ONLY during rush hours and only in the peak direction. I didn't go downtown much on weekends because it took forever. I *drove* into Manhattan on weekends and evenings, polluting second and third avenue with a smoke-belching car because it was just too painful to take the train. :)
You've been suggesting that replacing the weekend C with the AA would solve everyone's problems. Sure, CPW would have more local service and Concourse would keep its CPW express service -- but Rockaway passengers would lose their express service, and wouldn't even be able to transfer to an express (as Concourse passengers would if the D ran local on weekends, since the A would still run express). The ride on the A from the Rockaways (even when it runs express) is substantially longer than the ride on the D from the Bronx (even when it runs local), and the A tends to be more crowded than the D. If one of them should have weekend express service, it's the A, not the D. Your bias is showing.
The CPW local stations are hardly unused -- they're just not as heavily used as the IRT stations on Broadway. 81st Street had 3,136,839 fare registrations in 2000 -- more than any of the Concourse stations. I'm sure the CPW local stations would be even more popular if their prospective passengers knew that they wouldn't have to wait a half hour just to travel a few stops to 6th Avenue.
If it's any consolation, subway riders pay a lot less and have much more frequent headways.
Even when the trains from the outer stretches aren't crowded, and when the inner stretches are underserved, and when the local run only adds a few minutes for express riders, many of whom transfer to the A express in any case?
If D trains were consistently crowded on weekends, there'd be no argument.
I don't think the communities downstream should call the tune -- nor do I think that the communities upstream should call the tune. There's a balance that needs to be reached.
Making the D into a weekend local would mean that a fraction of Concourse passengers (namely, that fraction that rides on weekends and isn't traveling elsewhere on the Concourse line and isn't transferring to the 4 at 161st or the A at 145th/125th and certainly isn't transferring to the C at 125th) have to leave home three minutes early. If you think that would have a major impact on livability along an entire Bronx corridor, I have a bridge to sell you.
On the other hand, the Upper West Side is sufficiently popular with new residents. If you think that the Upper West Side will become anti-gentrified because of lack of service frequency on CPW, I have a clich to sell you.
Out of the eight local stations between 59th St/CC and 145th st, only the lower four are crowded. Even so, 96th St is moderate, compared to 72nd st or 81st st. But the upper 4 stations (103, 110/CP, 116 and 135th) are very light, not enough to warrant 2 services. I can agree to your argument that you want weekend D service to run local in Manhattan, but why should it happen when only 50% of local stations are in need of 2 services? If the D were to start running local from 125th st down (135th st is an almost empty station.) the switching from express to local would add 30 seconds to a minute of travel time. The way I see it, how about the D run express to 96th st (assuming the D is ahead of the C line in scheduling, both lines can be 10-12 minutes apart)), then local from 96th st to 59th st/CC and the same way back uptown too?
It's just not worth the confusion. Nobody expects a half-express.
There are lots of stations that are overserved "by accident."
Okay. Well, I'll just say that it's good for The Bronx to have at least one "fairly" rapid subway line connecting to the City, with express service as the norm. (It IS a mainly el boro.) There may not be as large a number of passengers using the service now as there could be but that statistic is not written in stone. And neighborhoods change; ten years down the road, I could easily see Bronx neighborhoods getting Williamsburg-ized. Let's give it a fighting chance. No reason at all why a multi-laned tree lined housing rich linear urban boulevard served by a three track subway line should not have a rebirth.
Anyway, it's the idea of Not Making All Stops that makes the express appealing, not the actual time advantage. That's the crux of the biscuit.
How is the Q and R be together? I thought the bridge trains uses the "local" tracks and the R/M uses the "express" track.
Then, you can look at it this way... Passengers will have a 3/1 chance of catching a Broadway line, then a 6th Avenue if they are heading north.
If passengers are heading towards south bklyn from dekalb avenue, they will have a 3/1 chance of catching a 4th avenue train, then a Brighton Line.
Seems like the 6th Avenue and Brighton line riders are being shafted in favor of Broadway/4th Avenue riders.
N Broadway Line
How is the Q and R be together? I thought the bridge trains uses the "local" tracks and the R/M uses the "express" track.
Then, you can look at it this way... Passengers will have a 3/1 chance of catching a Broadway line, then a 6th Avenue if they are heading north.
If passengers are heading towards south bklyn from dekalb avenue, they will have a 3/1 chance of catching a 4th avenue train, then a Brighton Line.
Seems like the 6th Avenue and Brighton line riders are being shafted in favor of Broadway/4th Avenue riders.
N Broadway Line
Until we see the new maps, I'd think it's safe to assume the D WILL stop at Dekalb on weekends (with the N bypassing).
The Brighton Line is a BROADWAY ROUTE!
Just like the riders on the CULVER Line cannot access Broadway anymore, neither can a few Brighton line riders on the weekend not access 6th Avenue.
If you care to check it out (L) (J) and (M) train riders cannot get an easy transfer to 6th Avenue either. What is the Big Deal!???
Elias
Yes they can. 14/6 on the L and Essex/Delancey on the J/M.
The fact is the Brighton has been both a Broadway and 6th Avenue line almost since Christie Street opened in 1967. Personally, I preferred the 6th Avenue but am willing to understand that perhaps there really is no difference between the D and B 16/5 as MTA has decided.
What is not understandable is what the hell is the big deal about having the D stop at DeKalb when the B is not running restoring to Brighton riders the basic choice between 6th Avenue and Broadway 24/7. Please don't tell me to transfer at Atlantic, it is a pain in the neck and a long long 10 minute transfer without taking into consideraton infrequent headways; especially at night.j So for example if one takes classes at NYU and takes the train to or from W 4th, it is a major inconvenience what with schlepping books etc.
Now people say you can't always have it your way and point out the lines that don't go up sixth avenue. But the point is we have a perfectly viable train that is bypassing DeKalb for reasons nobody seems to be able to fathom during non peak hours. Historically, when the Sea Beach and West End by passed DeKalb years ago, it was only during rush hours. They stopped at DeKalb during non peak hours. What the hell is the big deal about having the West End restored to its former status i.e. stopping at DeKalb non rush hours. There are not that many trains running at those times that switching makes a big difference, It worked well for years and years before we had mordern technology.
The fact is, like it or not, the Brighton line is the key most ridden BMT line in Brooklyn. Some of their passengers like those going to NYU and those going to Yankee games are being inconvenienced for no reason whatsoever. The logic of making Brighhton priority Broadway and 4th Avenue priority 6th Avenue (evenm though 4th Avenue will have both) is to a degree understandable. But not stopping the D at DeKalb when the B isn't running is simply indefensible and insensitive.
Period end of the discussion.
Actually, at one time DeKalb *was* a LOCAL STOP.
That is why there are "by-pass" tracks. Those were the "old" "express" tracks.
When DeKalb was made into an express station, the walls were broken down, and the side platforms were made into island platforms. It is the Extention of the Brighton Line along Flatbush Avenue that caused the need for this change, and it is the brighton tracks that are running on the outside of the station.
Here is a snapshot of the track layout:
Take away the Brighton, and it become a regular four track Local Station.
Elias
The discussion on the Dual Contracts found on this web site do not seem to show a connection from the Brighton Line to DeKalb. It is likely enough to have come a little later. Was their not some discussion as to wether the BRT or the IRT would run what lines where?
Or perhaps I am just misunderstanding what I am reading.
Anyway, I have *always* understood that DeKalb was built (or at least (planned) as a Local Station, and later converted to an express station.
Elias
But the way the Brighton line was built between Dekalb and Prospect Park (opened in 1920), it's pure Dual Contracts. Outside of Queensboro Plaza, were else in the NYC subway system would you have both the IRT and BMT running on the same street?
It seems to me that the BRT *was* doing something there prior to the existance of the dual contracts, and that what they were doing seems to have been incorporated in and superceeded by the Dual Contracts.
The language of the Dual Contracts seems to make reference to things that the BRT had already built or was building.
Elias
Thanks for making that point. The complexity of the Downtown Brooklyn trackage is a a never ending fascination. The LIRR Flatbush Terminal configuration with the IRT lines is another one. Reminds me of a mini Grand Central Terminal.
ESPECIALLY IF the (N) returns to the tunnel~!
That would be merging three services onto the local tracks north of Pacific Street! That *is* where the switch is, you know.
Elias
The combined headways of all 3 routes means a maximum of 18 TPH will use this one stretch of track on weekends. At night it would be 6. Big %$#@!& deal.
It is not necessary for all Lines to serve all trunks, even if it *is* possible.
Elias
Brooklyn was well served by the BMT before there was a Christie Street.
Christie Street was NOT put in to give South Brooklyn riders more choices. It was put in to increase the capacity of the 6th Avenue Line. It gave 6th Avenue four tracks instead of two tracks and a terminal at 34th Street. Southbound riders on 6th Avenue do not care where the train goes in Brooklyn once they get off on 6th Avenue.
Having said this, Afterall, 4th Avenue riders have their choice of 6th Avenue or Broadway with across the platform or same platform transfers; so too should Brighton riders. I can't conceive there is anybody who disagrees with that. I cannot argue with your position.
Elias
I beg to disagree. I do agree that the Chrystie St. connection was ALSO to improve 6th Av. service. But its primary reason was to increase capacity for the BMT southern division. The Brighton Express, the Sea Beach, and the West End all had to share the same Broadway Express tracks. Two of these services terminated at 57th St., which was very hard to do without causing delays. Also remember that the Broadway platforms were of 540' length, having not yet been lengthened to 600', whilst the equipment changed during the 1960s from Triplexes and Standards that could be formed into 540' equivalents, were replaced by R27/30s and Brightliners, which were married pairs and could only be formed into either 480' or 600' trains.
A secondary reason, related to the primary one, was to increase flow-through, that is, eliminate terminating in Manhattan northbound at 57th St.-7th Av. and Manhattan southbound at 34th St.-6th Av. Flow-through could be increased even today (with the Q being sent exp. to Jamaica at the expense of some Fs, with the V being extended to Culver to make up the result deficit in Fs), but the TA apparently is not interested.
No it wasn't, which is why Chrystie St. was built.
The N is irrelevant. The N and Q both run on Broadway. The N doesn't help weekend Brighton passengers get to 6th. The D does.
Bosh
The only ones affected would be passengers to Grand, Houston and W4th Street. People going to Grand could just as eaislly get off at Canal.
Yes, riders to Houston (and just how many would *that* be!) and those to W4 would be at a disadvantage, but from 14th street on up to the end of the CBD at 57th Street, the Broadway Line works just as well for them as the 6th Avenue Line.
Elias
There are many reasons to go to SoHo, NoHo and the Village on weekends. This isn't the 70s.
I agree with the fact that most people aren't that badly affected by lack of direct 6th Ave service, but because the track capacity is there and it is physically possible, there is no reason why the D should skip DeKalb if so much as one person per Brighton train is headed for Houston or West 4th (with NYU and a soon-to-be connection to the uptown 6 at Bway Lafayete, that would be a good number).
I also don't think Canal is enough of a substitute for Grand. Hasn't there been a bus running between the two stops since 2001 because customers complained? The walk is short, but once again, why bother with it when the space is there for the D to stop at DeKalb?
Serving NYU is a valid reason, but the transfer to the 6 is not. The Broadway line has offered transfers to the 6 at Canal and Union Square for decades, and in the case of the latter the 4/5 is available there too. The 6th Avenue line is only good for the A/C/E as far as transferring goes.
Make that the A/C. You can transfer to the E train at Queens Plaza.
Why does the M "belong" on the Brighton line? Because it ran there in the 80's? Ridership patterns change, and I'm not convinced that the TA even bothered to take ridership patterns seriously between the mid-60's and the mid-80's.
Brighton line stations already get more service per passenger than many other stations in the system. There's no need to add even more service at the expense of West End and 4th Avenue local service.
Service is measured in tph or interval between trains. Has the schedule with tph post-MB reopening been established yet? If the schedule is for 10 tph for all bridge trains and 9 for the R and 6 for the M, then 4th Av. will be served by 35 tph and the Brighton by 20 tph. The ratio of 4th Av./Brighton riders approximates 17:13. So if anything, the 4th Av. stations, as a whole, are getting more service per passenger than the Brighton. Apparently, the weekend service will be even more unbalanced.
Actually, it seems to me it would be a waste to have 10 tph for the N and 10 tph for the D. 7 or maybe 8 tph should suffice for the Sea Beach. Likewise for the D, as the West End, with 6 tph of M, would have 14 tph, which is what it has now. This would mean the total number of trains serving the 4th Av. trunk line in the morning rush would be approximately 30 tph (7-8 D, 7-8 N, 6 M, 9 R).
This brings another point to mind. There are fewer B than D trains running now. But fewer D than B trains would be required to provide adequate service in Brooklyn. Would there not be waste involved having, in the AM rush, more downtown Ds than Bs but more uptown Bs than Ds? This, of course, would have been avoided if the D went to Brighton and the B to West End.
Brighton express stations aren't busy enough to warrant 26 tph. Brighton local stations aren't busy enough to warrant 16 tph -- and very few Brighton passengers have any use for the M, anyway. West End stations could use more than 10 tph, and 4th Avenue local stations north of 36th (including a transfer point to the F) could use more than 9 tph.
My home station is substantially busier than any of the Brighton express stations, and it's not the busiest station on the line. Its service peaks at 20 tph, for a very brief period in the morning rush only, with trains only 75% the size of Brighton trains. Brighton passengers have nothing to complain about -- their waits are short and their trains aren't overcrowded. The handful who need the M have an easy transfer at DeKalb.
N Broadway
I agree with you. But let's not exaggerate. The Q local and express combined at their peak are only 15 TPH, and trains are 600 feet long as opposed to your 515-foot IRT trains. (I believe you said you were at 86th on the 1?) That's almost 86% of a Brighton train.
I like to exaggerate too, but I've had to pay for it.
And I'm speaking of the projected service increases to 10 tph on the B and Q. (Projected in this thread, that is. I don't know what's actually scheduled.)
N Bwy.. soon to be the W Broadway Local
As a sidenot, The M wasn't actually thrown off the Brighton because of the Manhattan Bridge work, but actually because of reconstruction on the Brighton Line that just so happened to start around the same time as the Manhattan Bridge work started in the mid-80's. Everyone always seems to blame the MannyB work for the change. The M left Brighton not completely because of the bridge work, but because of reconstruction of the tracks on the Brighton line, leaving only two tracks in service. They implimented Q/D "skip-stop" service on the Brighton (similar to the J/Z), and with that the M could not run there so they threw it onto the West End.
This act of throwing the M on the West End had an interesting effect though. As mentioned, the M is more popular and useful on the West End than it was on the Brighton, so I don't think it will be going leaving --- except middays....
The "proper" terminal for the M is 95th St, but the lack of a yard there makes doing this completely impractical. The M runs on the West End because it's the most convenient place to put it, even if few people use it south of 36th St.
Today's "M" over time replaced the TT, which replaced the Culver-Nassau.
As for the BMT running more trains thru Dekalb than today, you're probably right. It had thru Culver service to handle until 1959 and probably higher demand for Sea Beach and Bay Ridge service. However, it was a clogged mess during rush hours. With the Chrystie St connection, capacity was increased, even if this extra capacity was never exploited. It's still there, waiting to be used if necessary. The February 2004 service plan only uses about 75% of it.
The "M" is really a remnant of the "TT" and Culver-Nassau.
The claim is that surveys showed that weekend riders on the Brighton preferred Broadway to 6th Avenue. They didn't survey me but this is the claim.
The big losers are Yankee fans on the Brighton who lose their one seat ride to Yankee Stadium. So going to a Friday night game is not a big deal as the B serves the same purpose as the D once did but going home, late at night, well you have to take the D at 161st and if the D is not stopping at DeKalb, as it should when the B is not running if convenience is at all important to the brains at MTA, then Brighton Yankee fans have the inconvenient changes at Union Square (if they take the 4 from the Stadium), 34th St. (up and down stairs) if they take the D or at Pacific Street. In any event, what with night service operating on 20 minute headways, this could add as much as 30 minutes to a Yankee fans trip home. OTOH Yankee fans on the West End must be licking their chops.
Besides, how many Yankee fans are coming from/going to Brooklyn at all, let alone specifically the Brighton Line? I've ridden between Brooklyn and Yankee Stadium (at least in part on the Brighton Line) and found that, at least in the cars I've been in, the stadium crowd mostly gets on in, or is gone by, midtown Manhattan.
David
I still don't understand why the D does not stop at DeKalb anytime the B is not running. This would partially alleviate the problem and be fair to those Brighton riders who preferred Sixth Avenue to Broadway (somehow I think it was very close to 50/50 anyway).
Just stating the obvious; at least the obvious to me.
As for why the D won't stop at DeKalb Avenue overnight, my educated guess is that it's to have a consistent service pattern throughout the operating day. However, the track configuration does allow Sixth Avenue/West End trains to stop at DeKalb Avenue, and at some point NYCT might see fit to have them do so in the overnight period.
David
The one thing that does disturb me, as I said, is their plan not to have D service stopping at DeKalb when the B is not running. That really doesn't make any sense. Sixth Avenue riders would have an across the platform (actually wait on the same platform) access to Brighton train without having to climb up and down stairs while of course Broadway riders already have access to Fourth Avenue service. So under this plan, it really is the Brighton rider who seems to be bearing the biggest disadvantage the point being there need not be any disadvantage. Just wondering what possible logic there could be for the D to skip DeKalb non peak hours; especially since it would be helpful to many riders. Just a question, not a whine.
The only reasons I've seen in this thread FOR having the D SKIP DeKalb off-hours are for simplicity and consistency. But obviously these are ridiculous reasons. You can compare it to the issue of 2 trains running express on 7th Ave overnight, as during the day, and leaving local riders with only the 1, who may end up missing the 2 to Brooklyn (at 20 minute headways), or with the fact that the F runs express overnight on Queens Blvd (for consistency supposedly) leaving anyone going from the 6th Ave line to a Queens Blvd Local stop in the dust as well, having to go to 7th Ave for an E. It's ridiculous!
The issue (or so I am told) has not to do with 6th Avenue or Broadway, but with the Brighton and 4th Avenue alignments.
It's to keep switching to a minimum.
Actually there are three pairs of tracks through Dekalb.
Look at them this way:
Local Track = 4th Ave Local to Montegue
Express Track = Brighton to Bridge
Thru Track = 4th Avenue Exp to Bridge
Six tracks in / Six tracks out / minimum switching.
Elias
David
That is when the towers are closed and the T/Os a sleep in their beds, and the system is set to just let the trains run through. After all the (B) is not running, and the (N) is in the Tunnel, so even Gold Street Tower can shut down and get some ZZzzzs for the night.
: )- Elias
And this is based on personal knowledge? As far as I am aware, DeKalb Master Tower (not "Gold Street Tower") is open and staffed 24 hours a day. If anybody here KNOWS something else to be true, please post it.
David
I am, of course, being a silly. On the other hand, I could just see the TA being silly enough to close towers when trains do not need to be switched at that point. As you say, the Master Tower can control for problems that develop.
Elias
Ask the Ultimate Riders what happened when the late night G shuttle (single-tracking on the Queens-bound track) arrived at Hoyt, with passengers instructed to transfer to the Manhattan-bound A for continuing service, at the same time as a Manhattan-bound A at the opposite platform. That's right, it didn't hold, and everybody had to wait 20 minutes for the connection. Why weren't the holding lights turned on? Because the tower at Hoyt is closed at night.
And on one of the MOD trips, the planned runby at Smith-9th had to be cancelled because we couldn't be switched to the middle track at Bedford-Nostrand, since the tower wasn't manned.
David
It would appear from this track diagram that the switch that would control movement from the express to the local track (on the 4th Avenue Line) would be controled by that tower (if it is not already a part of the DeKalb Tower.) Maybe it is the Pacific Street tower that wants to go to sleep at night.
Elias
I was trying to find excuses for them, to cut them some slack, but you have takena all of that away.
OK: They Just don't give a rats ass about changeing at DeKalb, touch luck to you, go change trains some place else!
:^) Elias
What I can't fathom, figure out or whatever, is what the hell would be the big deal in having the D stop at DeKalb when the B is not running. It is not lengthening the route so subway car problems cannot be the answer. The tower has to be manned 24/7 so it can't be that. We are talking off peak hours so there is no problem with delays in trains because of switching trains in front of others.
It is just some decision maker who looked at a map and decided, ha ha the Brighton riders can switch at Atlantic Pacific. Too bad if it is a 10 minute walk from Atlantic to Pacific and too bad if in that interval they miss a D train. This is good enough so we don't have to mess up our master plan. No matter the Brighton is the crown jewel of the BMT and has always been. 4th Avenue riders get an easy choice between Broadway and 6th Avenue. Why shouldn't Brighton riders have the same choice which is easy to provide; no lengthy re routings no delaying other trains. Simply do what had been done for years and years, run the 4th Avenue express services through DeKalb non peak hours and weekends.
I am still waiting for somebody, anybody, to come up with a justification for this stupidity and short sightedness and screwing Brighton riders which is what it is. And where are the politicians from Flatbush and Brighton Beach screaming bloody murder at this imbecilic plan?
Next stop on the fabulous revitalized Sea Beach is Pacific Street.
The 4th Avenue Brooklyn subway is also a damn impressive bit of engineering for a privately owned transit railroad to build. It may not be as pictuesque as the Brighton line, true. But the 4th Avenue is a decent trunk line. We'll never see its like ever built again. Who could afford to build a 4 track local/express subway with connecting branches nowadays?
We should appreciate it. As downtown Brooklyn grows the need for express train service leading into it will also grow. Pacific Street to 59th Street express service should be a gauranteed service priority. What amazes me is how the BMT had trains skipping 36th Street. We'll probably never see that again either.
( Know this is totally boring to 99.9% of the readers, but I pass through 36th St every day and find such arcane facts of interest )
When the W runs express on the Sea Beach on occasional weekends (like this past), it makes local stops on 4th Avenue (while the N Sea Beach local runs express on 4th Avenue). But that's because the W always runs local on 4th Avenue on weekends and the N always runs express on 4th Avenue (except for a brief period in the early morning rush).
I don't think it's that many, but screw them. I also find things like this interesting.
They haven't realized there's an issue yet. None of the main brochures specifically mention that the D skips Dekalb on weekends as well as weekdays.
wayne
The same thing happened 20 minutes later. We held the doors for the passengers streaming over from the G.
We only ended up in that mess to begin with because the last through G before the late night GO began (transfer at Bedford-Nostrand to a shuttle, transfer at Hoyt to the A, transfer at Jay to the F) did a battery run in Queens, which cost us an hour.
The Concourse is not in South Brooklyn.
Elias
Anyplace else you want to go, you must assume at least one change.
Are there not as many Yankee fans on the Sea Beach Line or maybe on the Canarsie line. We will shed no tears for people who need one or even two changes of train when going from one outlying hinterland to another.
Heck, if I want to go to a Yankee game, it's three trains with a layover in Chicago!
: ) Elias
For special events like Yankee games, special trains can satisfy special needs. If there is an unusually high number of Yankee fans who live on the Brighton line, some post-game specials can run from 161st Street express to Brooklyn and either express or local on the Brighton line. (I have no idea if any such specials are planned.)
But I do think that the D should stop at DeKalb whenever the B doesn't run, despite the scheduling challenges. The transfers at Atlantic-Pacific and 34th aren't terrible, but if they can be avoided, why not?
Summer Weekend (B) service, from Brighton Beach to 161st Street/167th Street(or 200th Street if demand warrants it). This would also give CPW their extra service so everyone can have a seat going to the Museum of Natualr History. Also the (D) can still be weekend express and Concourse riders(maybe) will have 6th Avenue service.
----
Too much service on the Brighton
----
Assuming more people are going to/from Brighton Beach and 161st Street-Yankee Stadium, if not, then the plan would be changed.
Summer weekend (B) would run from 8:00 to 20:00 from the end of June to the beginning of September
the MTA runs extra service(at least for some buses) during summer.
Unless you think some extra (Q)s should run for the beach crowds and extra (D)s for Yankee Stadium. Of course (B) would take care of two issues at once
----
Too much service everywhere in between
----
4th Avenue, 6th Avenue[Avenue of the Americas] Times Square(well close to it anyway), Herald Square, Rockefeller Center, Museum of Natural History, Central Park West[8th Avenue]
---
Waste of money.
---
I would also regain that by cutting the fat in the MTA, like 2 Broadway and wasted projects. Cut some of those express buses and make people take the trains more.
I agree with you on express buses.
Frowning.
N Broadway
The change between 4 and Q at Union Square is realtively convenient. It's not cross platform, but it's a very short walk. 2 minutes at most.
Still not ideal, and I agree with Mr. Jaguar's point that the weekend D should stop at DeKalb, but either he's exaggerating or he walks very slowly.
Hey, that was only a problem with the MTBA where rocking trains is a pasttime. Everything under MTBA service has ghetto grills.
Anyway, I consulted with a buddy who makes head end videos and he much prefers the window arrangement in F40's and AEM-7's to that of P42's, HHP-8's and AE power cars. He said you get a nice all around view that dosen't skimp on anything forward.
Chuck
til next time
Happy New Years to all of you.
Julian
avid
PS the R110b is another story!
til next time
This Is What I Live For...
til next time
Julian
Avid
How do they compare with a typical year before off-the-street tests?
1. Old deadwood at the top.
2. Dumb newbie novelty theory-of-the-week-itis.
Although 6 cars is a little short...and it would be a little odd for an express line to be running short trains...
The 3 ran 9-car trains until 2001.
Chuck Greene
Great trip, anyway!
Chuck Greene
The mall next to the trolley loop is the purple building in the upper right hand corner. The RR station is right under the word EASTWICK.
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
Happy New Year!
Chuck Greene
Great trip on monday, I'll say it again!
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
I heard that the NY Subway Centennial logo will be placed on train cars beginning in early 2004. Has anyone seen it yet? Also, will it appear on the NYCT's Centennnial and Museum fleet collections and Redbirds? (I hope so.)
Are you nucking futs?!?!?!!? That dam sticker on the museum fleet will ruin the photos! Keep them OFF the museum fleet (and also keep wreaths off the museum fleet, for that matter!)!!!!!!!
ROFL
Dont you mean...well, you know what I think u mean...
Incognito
Robert
Absolute hell to say the least.
That reminds me of the times I've been on Manhattan buses.
Typically, there is access via one of the Sea Beach tracks at Stillwell. About a month ago, that track was closed for construction, leaving the Brighton line disconnected from Coney Island Yard, except via DeKalb (Whitehall, typically). I don't know if it's been reopened yet, but if not, that answers the OP's question.
David
Any train tagged should go straight to the yard for treatment and a bath.
wayne
After Christie Street they used to store the QJ trains there.
It has been used for layups for a long time.
My question is, which side of the bridge will carry the most passengers on the average weekday, and why? (We probably won't know until the "Hub Bound" survey for 2004 comes out in 2006, so we have years to argue this one).
Let's look at the three basic service periods: weekdays, weekends, and nights.
Weekdays, surveys have indicated a preference for the Broadway line among riders from Brooklyn. Many of those who start on the B or D will transfer to the Q or N to reach Broadway. Also, many R passengers from Bay Ridge who currently transfer to the W at 36th will transfer to the N at 59th. This prediction may be off, only because the Sea Beach (N) carries fewer passengers than the West End (D) and, IINM, the Brighton local (Q) carries fewer passengers than the Brighton express (B), and many of those passengers may prefer to keep their seats even if it means walking a bit further in Manhattan.
Weekends, the preference for Broadway is even stronger than on weekdays. Also, the south side will carry both the N and the Q while the north side will carry only the D on weekends. This is a no-brainer.
I don't know if polls were taken at night, so I don't know about late night route preferences in Manhattan, but in general the Brighton line is much busier than the West End line, so Broadway will probably win out again. The only catch is R shuttle passengers, who will probably prefer the single transfer at 36th to the D to the double transfer to the Q at DeKalb. (Will the R continue to run to Pacific at night, as it does now? That might make a difference.)
N Bwy
As you correctly note, it's too soon to tell which side will carry more people. My guess is that most people on the 4th Ave. branches (D and N) will opt for a one train (maybe one-seat) ride to Manhattan from their origin stations and avoid transferring at Pacific Street unless they need to take the R or M to Lower Manhattan. People on the Brighton Line can transfer at Kings Highway, Newkirk, Church, or Prospect Park if they originate at a local station. If they need to go to Lower Manhattan then they must transfer at DeKalb to the R or M.
My own preference has always been to keep transferring to a minimum and walk a little longer to one's final destination. Walking is normally the fastest mode for short distances in Manhattan.
I was thinking of watching from the top of 7th Avenue at Central Park. It looks like a really great view and I don't think there will be a zillion people there. I could be wrong.
If you can't get a hotel room or balcony or rooftop overlooking it, there really isn't much to see. And sadly, with DizzyWorld owning the Dick Clark network, Dave Letterman's self-obsession and NBC Nightly Nukes more interested in Leno and Las Vegas, Teevee ain't the place either. Once upon a time, MTeeVee had a GREAT New Year's par-tay but that too has turned to fluff. Had the pleasure of a temp job at WPIX one New Years and got to do it in style on the TeeVee truck. Now THAT had a great view from the roof, and you could see everything. I don't think they do that anymore either but I could be mistaken.
But at sidewalk level, the show sucks unless you're RIGHT THERE in front of the old Times Building. And unless you're there at 8AM, you'll be somewhere in the upper 40's (or further) where you won't see squat, other than the drunk next to you decorating your leg. :)
Hate to say this, but I may have found a legitimate use for Depends!
Regards,
Jimmy
Happy New Years Eve Eve
Unless you're a child or a recovering alcoholic, New Years Eve without alcohol is lame.
At home on television.
No freezing cold, no jam packed subway trains going to/from, no crowds on the streets, and no pickpockets.
Free subscription required.
Happy New Year! And, in your case particularly, some prosperity!
John
But amazing how similar upstate is to the Carolinas otherwise. Done both.
An observation that I saw: R38 Car # 4081 has two different types of numberplates. One side has the font like on the Redbirds and the other has the font like on a GE GOH R32. If you are looking for it, it runs on the A line.
Rundown:
R42 - 4706(M) SB
R142 - 1181(4) NB
R62A - 2109(7) WB
R142 - 6385(2) SB
R32 - 3442(C) NB
R62A - 1716(7) NB
R142 - 6826(5) SB
R42 - 4743(M) NB
R42 - 4629(J) NB
Regards,
Jimmy
Want to see more http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4288173443
Now the only better way this evening of train watching could've ended was if only my sweet petite wife would be stepping off the train, or at least I would've seen an M7. :-0
The ride from Canal to 14 is a smooth ride but it is definitely not faster than the W4 to 34 St run.
The ride from W4 to 34 is 20 blocks.
The ride from Canal to 14 is 20 blocks once it clears the corner, so it is a bit longer than the 6th Ave Dash. Also the blocks are a little longer once you are south of Houston.
So... it is eight blocks from Canal to 4th St via the Bway.
It is 20 blocks and two stops from Canal to West 4th via the 6th.
When I lived in Brooklyn, at Bergen and Bond... it was a two (long) block walk to the (F) and nine (short) blocks to the (QB). I ALWAYS walked to the QB at DeKalb and NEVER took the (F) from Bergen Street.
And my destination *was* 34th Street. While I cannot say that I timed the trips, service at Pacific/DeKalb was much better than from Bergen.
I always caught the Manhattan Bound train at DeKalb, but going home, I would take a train that Skipped DeKalb if that came in first. But I had the schedules down fairly well, and arrived at about the same time each day, and so the (QB) was my train.
Elias
Unless you live EAST of the Hudson River, in which case it is 30 blocks>
Doesn't matter: Either way it is 30 blocks from West 4,
it is 8 more blocks via Broadway to Canal, and 20 more blocks via 6th Avenue to Canal.
Bway = about 38 blocks and 3 stops between 34th and the Bridge.
6th Ave = about 50 blocks and 4 stops between 34th and the Bridge.
Either way there is only one stop between Houston and 34th St.
As for my choice... Its the BMT over the IND anytime.
Elias
Remember that the stationing distances are in feet, which would be the most effective way I know of to determine distances (without looking at drawings).
The distance between the Grand Street station and the 34th Street station (front end at each) is 1037.15-894.2=142.95 or 14,295 feet.
I'm not sure of about the Broadway line's chaining between Canal and 34th. A recource like this isn't available for the BMT, but the IND way is a little over 2.7 miles.
Elias
my Lions *like* Egrets when they can get them.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
NOPE!... Trains would have to cross in front of each other, indeed an northbound diversion from a local track would delay an uptown express and both downtown trains.
The trend is to move away from unnecessary switching, especially in manhattan were there are several routes on each track already.
IND has flying crossovers, but the IRD does not.
Elias
There are only two flat junctions in the subway system still in use in revenue service.
It made the MTA to stop the 7 Av express service to VCP.
Chuck Greene
(1) leave as is
(2) leave as is until Chambers-south ferry
(3) leave as is
(4) same as u said
(5) same as u said
(6) leave as is
(8) Can't be done. The shuttle trackway only allows for a train to go uptown on eastside, across town, then uptown on west side.
(9) 242-dyckman-lcl to 137-96-7th lcl-park lcl-south ferry
The old station was at the same site as the current station.
What makes the present shuttle so intense? Can't transfers be made elsewhere to complete the journeys ?
Also, the shuttle isn't necessarily used at the end of a trip -- I've had to use it as the middle leg of three (not counting a long walk after I got off the 6) on a past commute.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
This explains some of the express vs local feelings. Personally, Ill get on whatever comes first and, if I have a seat, stick with it!
But, certainly, a headway is a headway, regardless of how long the train sits at each terminal.
Shuttle leaves GC every 10 minutes on the :10s. 90 seconds travel time to Times Sq. Two minutes dwell at TS. 90 seconds travel time to GC. 5 minutes dwell at GC. Repeat.
This means that the shuttle leaves TS at 2133.5 and then every ten minutes until 0003.5
And the physical benefits from a nice brisk walk from Times Square to Grand Central might just add some years to your life.
From where do you come to the shuttle when you miss it?
From an other (subway) train? Ask the MTA to change the departing times,
so you (and other people) get the transfer.
From outside? Learn the timetable and be at time at the station.
My buddy at work has the same thing happen early on weekday mornings, coming from Penn Station to GCT. He says its cause the crews would rather have 10 minutes to sit around and bullshit at GCT, not 5 minutes at GCT and 5 minutes at TS. That five minutes is not enough time to really get a good bullshit session going. I've heard people say it's cause they feel SAFER at GCT they get paranoid at TS. They wanna unload, load and get the hell outa there. I don't know about that, neither scenario seems too likely, at least to me, yet there has to be some reason.
David
I agree that its annoying, particularly since I didnt see anything to sit on in the TS shuttle area, but it doesnt change the expected wait time!
Happy New Year!
Awright, ya get off work at 10:55 PM so ya can make an 11:20 PM train at GCT. Ya take the 1,2 or 3 one stop to 42d Street. Ya get there at 11:03 and get the shuttle that arrived there at 11:03 PM. Ya get there at 11:04 and ya miss the Shuttle cause it left at 11:05. And it's not coming back to damn near 11:20. What's it doing all that time? It's sitting over at GCT! People around you on the platform, who go through this all the time, start grousing, "What kinda nonsense is this! Same crap every night!" Now you chuckle and explain to them,
"Its psychology. If there are 6 tph, then your wait is average 5 min, max 10."
Okay, only -- again, we're talking real life here -- the crowd starts eyeing you suspicously. "What is this guy? Some egghead? Some 'new age' guy? I'm gonna miss my frigging train and he's telling me it's 'psychology'?" Next thing you know, John, that crowd is gonna turn on you. Now I'm not saying it's right, mind you, I'm just explaining the way things work in the real world.
And Happy New Year!!! ;=D
Ya get there at 11:04 and ya miss the Shuttle cause it left at 11:05. And its not coming back to damn near 11:20Thats a service frequency issue. 15 min wait = 4 TPH
Also, if you arrive consistently at 11:04 and see the shuttle consistently departing in front of your eyes, then its a demonstration that the shuttle is keeping to a timetable, even though that timetables not very friendly to you!
Let me give you another scenario. If the shuttle arrived at 11:03, then left at 11:18, you would be able to catch it. The service frequency wouldnt change: it just puts you waiting in the train not on the platform. And you would probably still miss the 11:20 at GCT!
I know it sounds like I'm exaggerating, but I'm not. When you miss the shuttle at Times Square at 11 o'clock you wait 13 minutes until the train arrives back again. Unless they've changed it within the past 6 months. I wouldn't know. I never take it anymore after 10 o'clock.
Joe C, please show us where you are in the above photo.
til next time
til next time
One of these days, Ill be in NYC without other commitments and will be able to go on a trip! Hopefully in 2004.
Happy New Year!
I left this trip at 111th and was not able to be in this group photo.
Chuck
http://www.transalt.org/about/current.html#form
All are excellent trade journals.
I'm a qualified computer professional and I get more free trade publication than I have time to read.
For all those who love Brooklyn El car or El cars in general. Anyone who has been intrested in the car from my previous posts would like this news.
Recently I have made a lot of progress on 1349. The crown beam is now primed and painted and the crown beam band and both are on the car and secured. Holes for the anticlimber have been drilled and the anticlimber has been primed and painted. Most recently today the coupler carrier was put back on the car and the airpipes that hook to the carrier were reconnected to the carrier.
Also The center ceiling pannels on the unassembled end have replaced and a rotted section of the upper crown peice was replaced.
if anyone wants you can send any donations to
the 1349 fund
Brandford Electric Railway
17 river st, East haven, ct 06067
Ya know why those cows are mad, don't you? Cuz you never let 'em operate yer R-9! ;-)
And the cows ain't mad because they don't operate, it's because Holsteins don't fit through that silly nickel turnstile y'all installed without being "prodded" ... (grin)
Regards,
Jimmy
PS Still haven't run 1689 as of yet.
:O
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well aware... I first saw her when she was still at end-of-track by Sprague and last saw her less than two weeks ago.
There are no plans to restore the car anytime soon.
Nor should there be. As a museum we have many other higher priorities, including the proper protection of what we have and the completion of work in progress, such as New Orleans 850 and Brooklyn 1001. There are also several other cars which have operated in the past which, I am told, would take relatively little work (compared to the amount of effort required for 75 or 1349) to return to service.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Don't mean to rain on your parade... I certainly don't want to dampen your enthusiasm for 1349, but I'd rather put the focus on the cars that the visitors can ride regularly and on the most historically significant cars, like 1001; they're the main course, the rest are the trimmings.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If you want to come work on the trolleys be my guest, I chose to work on the El car.
Being a single truck car is not an automatic disqualification... 34 was in regular passenger service at the Museum, long before either of us were members. Other single truck cars have also seen active service there. I suspect that there are political reasons it is no longer in the daily operating fleet, in addition to the requirement that open cars have both a motorman and conductor. Car 500 has the potential, marketed correctly, to generate a significant amount of revenue for minimal expense, but no one has allowed it to be done. A lot of the cars run, and based on what I have been able to learn I believe that some could be added to the mix in the operating fleet with relatively little work. I am hopeful that the Board will be willing and able to tackle some of these issues in the months ahead.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
As far as revenue the last railfan weekend was a good one and brought the museum a good amount of money. In fact in the next year there are several such events planed. The railfan event had both trolleys and the subway cars. Also the RT weekend with the R17 brought the museum nearly 20 new members and not to mention it brought plenty of visitors to the museum. I beleive that trolleys and rapid transit can both have a place at the museum.
That sounds more like an excuse (I'm not pointing the finger at you, I'm sure it's what you've heard from a couple of people who I won't name here) than anything else. Other museums - Baltimore in particular comes to mind - run primarily single-truck, hand braked cars, and they don't seem to have any such difficulties. They take the time to train their operators accordingly. We aren't doing that training because we aren't using that type of car in general service, that's all - if we were going to use those cars, the operators could easily be trained.
As far as revenue the last railfan weekend was a good one and brought the museum a good amount of money.
Yes it was, in spite of the rain and the memorabilia/model dealers and layouts only staying for one day instead of two. I was there from setup Friday night until the last car was put to bed on Sunday. And we do have more such events scheduled for next year.
I beleive that trolleys and rapid transit can both have a place at the museum.
I've never disagreed with that. However, we are first and foremost a trolley museum, and the RT equipment is the side dish, or maybe even dessert - not the main course. I've put my money into both (my time stays on the operating side of the ledger, not the restoration work, so that of necessity is 100% streetcar). I have supported the RT efforts when certain members have strongly criticized them. But there are times when we must prioritize, and when push comes to shove our main mission - the streetcar in North America - must take precedence.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
...Or it could be political wrangling amongst the members of this organization.
-Stef
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Depends on who the "they" you are talking about.
Remember that we have a very active group who loves "yellow" cars. 2350 is one of the 15 of them ... and she just happends to be from my home town ! I'll bet she is on their list, as a matter of fact I'll bet they have some kind of plan for all 15 !
It does not. 27 does. (I've been the "backup control" on 1001, looking out the window while another member was in the operator's seat running the car.) Either way, 1001 is one of the most historically significant vehicles in our collection, if not THE most significant, and deserves its priority status for restoration for display and occasional operation.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes it is, hence my reference to its "priority status". And if you should change your mind and decide that you were interested in working on it, I'm sure Jan Lorenzen and the others working on it would be glad to have your assistance... just offer.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Need some folks who are good at blocking new bodywork - fine sanding as aerobics. There's some spots that still need to be gone over. Other stuff too.
I'm usually there Saturdays, I'm going to try to come Friday nights to catch up.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The exterior paint I matched to the 1936 lacquer I found under the stoplight housings is on its way to Brooklyn. The interior is being renovated as well. Even got the wife involved making the new leather seat covers!
Will keep y'all informed as to progress and calls for special needs and skilled hands.
Thanks!
But this said it would still be not a piece of cake to have her in daily operations, i.e. for starters you would need two operators who are specially qualified. 451 at Warehouse point is easier because she has two poles & two cabs (been there, done that).
Suburban cars like 775 can.
To clarify what RIPTA is talking about: 775 has controller points to enable the car to run in parallel, but the controller was modified by the shop. It can only run in series, which puts the car at slower speeds.
-Stef
"since when can a trolley run 50 to 60 mph"
I hate to break it to you but there are a few cars at the museum that can do that and more. As far as I know the fastest car on the property is Cincinnati & Lake Erie #116. I have never rode it personally but I have been told this by members who know these things. Cars of this same series went on to serve the Lehigh Valley Transit out of Philadelphia, after the C&LE quit in 1939. I personally know a few guys who rode these cars in service and they told me they could do over 75 if the track allowed. The same goes for the Red Arrow Master unit #84 I think, they were the fastest cars on the Red Arrow. Look forward to more discussion on this one
Steve Loitsch
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Steve Loitsch
Enjoy
Steve Loitsch
I agree about the flood, my first time back at the museum, after about 10 years, was Members Day 1998. The first thing I did was to find out when 709 would be making an appearance. The last time I had seen and run 709 was 1985 (wow was it that long ago? I was only 14 then) at Members Day. Much to my disappointment I found out about the motors. Soemtimes with forced air dying they can come back but in 709's case there is more to it than that. Now for a little BERA history here, my father told me that the Board meetings used to be held in the back 709 at Sprague during the 70's.
Steve Loitsch
A-N-D there currently isn't enough elavated track for everything (note to the rest of you, no not that kind of El track). This is what makes the "island" a good option, i.e. it's high, it's close & it's round ... hmmm ROUND ... that doesn't have anything to do with anything :-)
I recall the balance speed of 709 as 74 MPH, but that might have
been in train. A train will go a little faster than a single
car because if you have 3 cars, you have exactly 3 times the
horsepower, but less than 3 times the wind resistance.
Red Arrow Master Units were reportedly clocked in excess of 60 MPH
back in the day.
On Branford's line, top-end speed is not as a big a deal as
acceleration rate. The PCC cars, with their 4.0 rate, will probably
reach the highest speed on the line in the two sections of
roughly 2000 feet each of straight track.
Currently it's undergoing a late-in-life restoration, and hopefully will come out of the shop for the upcoming season.
When I was a kid, I was lucky enough one Saturday morning to have one of the motorpeople on the Newark City subway let me operate one of the Public Service PCC's for a short while since it was empty and the one thing that impressed me to no end about the PCC's was how FAST they could go, the incredible acceleration and how fast and HARD they could stop if you pushed too hard. :)
Race cars! At some point, I'd love to do a run in "Sparky's coupe de vooptie" one of these days. Heh.
Nuttin' like operating the real things tho. Woohoo!
Which ones? Perhaps we should take up a collection :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Firstly, it's passenger, secondly, at the Baltimore Streetcar Museum, we operate hand braked single truck cars regularly.
Is the statement based on "we are afraid of hand brakes (34)? or something else.
I remember 2350 was involved in an accident a number of years ago. Is it repaired yet? If it is, why not use it - it's a Birney.
You hit the nail on the head. Funding is available for work on the RT cars that are in regular revenue service. The R-17 doesn't need as much work as 1349. It's possible a stainless steel car may be easier to work on than a wooden el car which requires special attention. I'm pretty sure most Branford Members don't have the expertise needed in working on 1349.
-Stef
We hooked up a stinger to the car today and got all the lights working. Soon with JefH's help we will check out the aircompressor and get that running to see how the air system is after all these years.
The orginal thread of this msg was about 1349, not that other cars might need less work to get in service. I decided to try to get a car back into shape that most people would not consider. How many people have come to the museum, taken a car apart and decided it will take to long and walked away leaving the car in worse shape. Not to mention some people only want to work on a car when it has a sponser.
Regards,
Jimmy
Jimmy 8)
Without money, a project will not get off the ground.
-Stef
Steve Loitsch
Steve Loitsch
The handful of Master Units made for Red Arrow were atypical,
just as their ten Brilliners were not typical Brilliners (if you
could call any of them typical...the only other major buyer
was AC). Both were modified by Brill for high-speed service.
The distinction between interurban and streetcar has been
discussed before. There are gray areas. Red Arrow and ConnCo
are both borderline cases and were really more suburban than
interurban. Red Arrow went from a major city out to a bunch
of suburban towns. So did ConnCo, but there were a few lines
that ran city to city, such as New Haven to Bridgeport. However,
unlike what I would consider a "true" interurban, ConnCo did not
have _extensive_ private r-o-w. There would be sections, some of
them a mile or two long, but it was predominantly street running.
I would have to say that in Branford's collection, the only true
interurbans are 250, 709, 9 and 116.
This forum would tend to center on rt type cars. There are others working on MOW & trolley cars, but not many here care about what they are doing.
"... But those of us interested in Interurbans and streetcars have to remember that these cars bring in $$$ to keep the lights on so to speak. I have no idea how the funding from RT weekends is used but at least it is coming in ..."
It all goes to pay the bills. A number of a new members came there because of the rt cars ... some are now Board members. I've seen the regular operators of our trolley manned with more & more by them, that's a good thing, i.e. they care about the meseum & are happy to help out where the greatest need is even though they have a passion for a specific part of it.
Here are real life examples:
Friend 1: Kings Highway > 7th Ave (Park Slope) > West 4th Street
Friend 2: Broadway (Queens) > Ditmars
Friend 3: 96th (East) > 59th (East) > 14th (East)
Do you agree or disagree?
Rockaway Ave(3)>Pennsylvania Avenue(3)>28 Street(6)>161 st(4)
Having just lived in a city with a 16 hour peak travel time/rush hour, I can vividly imagine that pain(and the 16mph on the through streets don't help). I guess you're just closer to the breaking point than the rest of us. Although I thought it was interesting how the article mentioned 17% population growth, I wonder how it compares to the 50-150% that a lot of our newer cities have going on now.
The crime now is that we know the problem, and we know that the solution is not endless blacktop. We need to design communities so that there are viable alternatives to the automobile.
ARE THEY CRAZY?????
What that whole area needs is a quick, safe, dependable rapid transit system.
What about the NIMBY's???
WHAT NIMBY'S? What's a few years' construction problem when you see the end product? How else do people build stuff? They've gotta build somewhere. If it just so happens to be behind your house, you'll just have to deal with it. Ah-nold should be funnelling some much needed $$$ to fund building a rapid, intercity rail line, connecting the urban areas along the coast with the Inland Empire and other surrounding areas. I know how bad those freeways are out there. I've been on them!
Believe me, if they didn't kill PE, they wouldn't be having this problem!
Every community says we dont' want to be another Atlanta.
Atlanta seems to be the local mecca of build it, and they will come.
And everyone, from State local to newspaper says and admits that no city has EVER built itself out of congestion.
As much as I like highways and innovative design, you can't put the burden soley on them, and that's what people are missing the point on. There's too much polarization on the subject. I'd be happy if there was some ratio of transport vs. roads. 30%-70% would work for me in this area, until people get hooked on trains.
Besides, anyone remember that quote I posted a few month back about PE. It said something about the whole traffic on LA's freeways could've been on the whole PE system before it was dismantled or something like that. But I forgot the quote now, and it was the greatest one.